From lars at nocrew.org Wed Mar 1 00:14:45 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 07:14:45 +0100 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: ("Mattias \=\?utf-8\?Q\?Engdeg\=C3\=A5rd\=22's\?\= message of "Tue, 28 Feb 2017 23:53:21 +0100") References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> <586981FA.9060800@ntlworld.com> <821A80CE-B257-4DE6-A245-D7C81A26FA16@acm.org> <86wpcam8ra.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <86fuixmskq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Mattias Engdeg?rd wrote: > Many thanks for the VT420 results! I have a VT220 too, but it's in storage. I can dig it out if necessary, but I'm hoping someone else can contribute those results. Note that the setup probably can alter the results. I had "Auto Wrap" enabled, which is probably what you want. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Mar 1 00:40:24 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 00:40:24 -0600 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 2/28/2017 2:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > In answer to the final point, and the interests of some analog education, looking at your reffed pdf, page 75, the reason (or one reason) > your duplicated Coco input circuit is not working is the gross impedance mismatch between the coco tape output and input circuits. To get to the point, this advice was golden. After stripping away the 220, 8K2,6K8 and the 56K to Vcc, the unit started functioning. A nasty 60Hz blip was removed by slightly biasing the negative input with a 1M resistor to GND. The 1M drive to ground pulled the input over so much lower, making the center around .7V, so I used Tony's idea to create a .7V reference on the + end with a forward biased diode and a week pullup to Vcc, which made things ever so much better. Obviously, given the LM339 issues, this is unworkable in the end, but it did get me to realizing some outputs on the LM339, so thanks to both of you. I can plainly see the oscillation on the comparator transitions, so it is obvious I need a better comparator. I'll have to source a few different comparator options from Digikey to fill my parts box. Suggestions are welcome. > Using the internal AVR comparator sounds like a better final solution (fewer components), but in devising an > input circuit for the AVR you may be running into the same issue of loading a high-impedance source. Though it plays into Tonly's notes about my analog understanding (or lack thereof), I was so disillusioned by the analog uncertainties that I initial focused on the AVR comparator. By correctly biasing the comparator, I was able to get much better results tonight, but the lack of any ability to add hysteresis into the design hindered my success. At transition, the signal simply bounces badly. I tried to construct a low pass filter (22pF and 5K6), and some variations, but I was not able to overcome. I then tried to deal with it in SW, but I have not yet been successful. I'll try again, but lack of hysteresis is a big issue. > > However, considering you have a known and fixed source circuit (the coco tape output) you might try something even simpler for the > AVR comparator input, such as just a 1K series R followed by a 220K to 470K R to GND. The comparator should then be seeing essentially the coco output > wave shape and levels, without you having to adjust the software detection for biasing introduced by the input circuit. I will try this tomorrow. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Mar 1 03:47:05 2017 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 09:47:05 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On 28 February 2017 at 21:23, Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > OK, it's official. I rarely criticize mail interfaces, because they're > usually > mostly innocuous. However, today's change makes life a lot more difficult. > > In the past, it was simple to direct a reply to an individual instead of > to the > list because the originator's address was right there in the From: > header. As > of today, the list address is substituted for that, so that it is > impossible to > respond privately... Users. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From mattiase at acm.org Wed Mar 1 04:12:03 2017 From: mattiase at acm.org (=?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?=) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:12:03 +0100 Subject: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought In-Reply-To: <86fuixmskq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <759FCF37-ADC8-4FE8-AC27-AB3C60C31D28@acm.org> <45366AF4-83CA-48D5-A9B8-1E1AC3E9976A@comcast.net> <586981FA.9060800@ntlworld.com> <821A80CE-B257-4DE6-A245-D7C81A26FA16@acm.org> <86wpcam8ra.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <86fuixmskq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: 1 mars 2017 kl. 07.14 skrev Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk : > I have a VT220 too, but it's in storage. I can dig it out if necessary, > but I'm hoping someone else can contribute those results. Thank you, I already got results for a VT220 from another contributor. > Note that the setup probably can alter the results. I had "Auto Wrap" > enabled, which is probably what you want. Quite right. The test actually turns on auto-wrap itself. I even ran the test on a VT100 emulator in Javascript (http://www.pcjs.org/devices/pc8080/machine/vt100/), which emulates the VT100 hardware with the original ROMs. There is a configuration with a VT100 connected to an IBM PC AT, so after installing Microsoft C on it and porting the test to MS-DOS, I got the same result as a genuine VT100. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Mar 1 05:10:50 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 06:10:50 -0500 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <86065efc-6bea-7f7d-549f-c48659186f1b@verizon.net> On 03/01/2017 01:40 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 2/28/2017 2:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: snippage > Obviously, given the LM339 issues, this is unworkable in the end, but > it did get me to realizing some outputs on the LM339, so thanks to > both of you. > > I can plainly see the oscillation on the comparator transitions, so it > is obvious I need a better comparator. I'll have to source a few > different comparator options from Digikey to fill my parts box. > Suggestions are welcome. OR a bit of positive feedback. >> Using the internal AVR comparator sounds like a better final solution >> (fewer components), but in devising an >> input circuit for the AVR you may be running into the same issue of >> loading a high-impedance source. > Though it plays into Tonly's notes about my analog understanding (or > lack thereof), I was so disillusioned by the analog uncertainties that > I initial focused on the AVR comparator. By correctly biasing the > comparator, I was able to get much better results tonight, but the > lack of any ability to add hysteresis into the design hindered my > success. At transition, the signal simply bounces badly. I tried to > construct a low pass filter (22pF and 5K6), and some variations, but I > was not able to overcome. I then tried to deal with it in SW, but I > have not yet been successful. I'll try again, but lack of hysteresis > is a big issue. > Single transistor audio amp before it. Allison > Jim > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Mar 1 07:56:56 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 14:56:56 +0100 Subject: The fastest PDP-8 [Was: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170301135653.GV16529@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 06:50:53PM -0800, Ian S. King via cctalk wrote: > > PDP-11/60 - the fastest PDP-8 ever built! :-) > I believe that work is lost though or could the microcode be floating around somewhere? /P (I think I've asked before.. sorry for the noise in that case) From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Mar 1 09:07:42 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 15:07:42 +0000 Subject: Maillist Logistics - question In-Reply-To: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> References: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <123594D6-547B-47FE-BFC8-A49152078945@swri.edu> All, am I just being paranoid, or does this seem like a bad idea? > Passwords for mtapley at swri.edu: > > List Password // URL > ---- -------- > cctalk at classiccmp.org ?.. . Presumably that email went only to me, but I just have the idea that a plain-text email with my account and password both in the same place isn?t wise. I?m not sure the information is terribly abusable - presumably if my list membership were hijacked I could work it out without much fiancial risk or anything, but still, if we need passwords, this is a pretty cavalier way to treat them. Is there a mailman setting that can be used to delete this information from the monthly mailing? - Mark From hachti at hachti.de Wed Mar 1 09:11:17 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:11:17 +0100 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8f960390-d963-afed-ca44-47a46077a689@hachti.de> On 11/11/2016 04:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all gone. > No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. Really? I thought there is still some card stock to buy. > On 11/10/16 5:36 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> And where can I get new fan-fold paper tape to put in the trays? Would it be interesting to make new paper tapes? I once built a prototype of a fanfolding machine. It worked not perfectly due to lack of mechanic precision. But that could be fixed. It's no problem to get some paper cut and rewound to the right dimensions. Even printing something interesting onto the roll is no big deal. I'm so sorry about our factory (where I have my printshop and storage now): There was all the stuff needed to flexo print and cut paper tape rolls. In fact they even actually produced some punch tape in the past. I sometimes thought about getting back into small scale (before it was HUGE) flexo printing and paper roll processing to create a small "vintage supplies" business. Thought of teletype rolls (the sprocket oney!), paper tapes, FORTRAN coding forms (which I could already deliver from my letterpress shop!), CalComp plotter rolls and so on. Philipp -- From hachti at hachti.de Wed Mar 1 09:16:51 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:16:51 +0100 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <598da73e-21d0-91a4-63b3-8d20fe2c2ae0@hachti.de> On 11/11/2016 05:53 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right specifications. > This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper stock to IBM card stock specifications. Yes. No wonder... But perhaps one could find something that is just similar enough. There are so many papers out there! If you want the official stuff with (not only that!) X and y separately specified shrink rated with respect to humidity, specified dielectric constant and so on - you're lost. But if you look for something that just runs pretty nicely on old card readers, it could (!) be easier. > Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has also been discussed. > Nothing has resulted from either discussion. The missing word: "yet" - who knows what will still happen! Philipp From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Mar 1 09:41:10 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:41:10 -0500 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <598da73e-21d0-91a4-63b3-8d20fe2c2ae0@hachti.de> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <598da73e-21d0-91a4-63b3-8d20fe2c2ae0@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 10:16 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 11/11/2016 05:53 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers >>> would be putting out postcard stock of the right specifications. >>> >> This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper >> stock to IBM card stock specifications. >> > Yes. No wonder... But perhaps one could find something that is just > similar enough. There are so many papers out there! If you want the > official stuff with (not only that!) X and y separately specified shrink > rated with respect to humidity, specified dielectric constant and so on - > you're lost. But if you look for something that just runs pretty nicely on > old card readers, it could (!) be easier. > > Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has also been discussed. >> Nothing has resulted from either discussion. >> > The missing word: "yet" - who knows what will still happen! > > Philipp > I would check with the greenkeys guys. Some of them may have a few cases available. b From hachti at hachti.de Wed Mar 1 10:11:03 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 17:11:03 +0100 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <8153D8B2-A5BE-4798-AF71-BCEEC0931659@johnlabovitz.com> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> <6dd4b953-713b-ed57-51fd-e3f74dd53a1f@bitsavers.org> <7e869783-7628-5a0d-2a18-5a1bf790ef29@jwsss.com> <00a401d23c70$1f4c1810$5de44830$@gmail.com> <2d10f36c-6938-5f5a-ea60-ffecc90fa217@jwsss.com> <1DEAE0FF-1252-4296-89A4-7679B21CD3CE@comcast.net> <8153D8B2-A5BE-4798-AF71-BCEEC0931659@johnlabovitz.com> Message-ID: <27ff5303-7f13-e3d7-00f7-70b696478e1d@hachti.de> On 11/13/2016 05:09 AM, John Labovitz wrote: > A few years back, while photographing letterpress printers (see > http://johnlabovitz.com/projects/letterpress), I met a fellow (Rob > Barnes) in Denver who specializes in die-cutting. Like most die-cut > operators, he uses mid-20th century Heidelberg letterpress printing > presses. I have no idea if he?s interested in a retro-punch card > project, but it might be worth contacting him. Nice pictures! I would do the die cutting - but I'm in Europe. Have two Heidelberg windmills and a Heidelberg Cylinder. On the windmills I could make many cards (thousands to ten thousands), using the cylinder I could process tons of paper. > Frankly, I think the harder task is to find a good stock of > appropriate paper. Right. The old problem.. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Mar 1 10:27:50 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:27:50 +0000 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I have heard that story to. _IF_ you have WCS for the 11/60 ... not very common. But even with WCS installed, there is a ?small? problem: the PDP-8 microcode for the 11/60 is lost ? From my website: The only other PDP-11 that has a WCS option (KUV11, M8018) is the PDP-11/03, KD11-F processor. Ritchie Lary wrote the micro-code for the PDP-11/60 to emulate the PDP-8 instruction set, making it the "fastest PDP-8 ever". It is a pity that the source code seems to be lost. Even Ritchie Lary, the author, no longer had the source when Eric Smith inquired some years back (~2011 - 2012), and Ritchie did not think that anyone else was likely to have it. So, it appears to be lost forever. I love to hear whether somebody has that source code! But then, I lack the tools to compile that. IIRC, you need a microcode compiler and some other tool ? Van: Ian S. King via cctalk Verzonden: woensdag 1 maart 2017 03:51 Aan: Ethan Dicks; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI PDP-11/60 - the fastest PDP-8 ever built! :-) -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From hachti at hachti.de Wed Mar 1 11:12:20 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 18:12:20 +0100 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 03/01/2017 05:27 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > I have heard that story to. _IF_ you have WCS for the 11/60 ... not very common. > But even with WCS installed, there is a ?small? problem: the PDP-8 microcode > for the 11/60 is lost ? But it could be rewritten! From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 1 11:17:10 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:17:10 -0500 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <907C8B6B-CFA2-4B7C-A1A3-608F127F5EDF@comcast.net> > On Mar 1, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 03/01/2017 05:27 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >> I have heard that story to. _IF_ you have WCS for the 11/60 ... not very common. >> But even with WCS installed, there is a ?small? problem: the PDP-8 microcode >> for the 11/60 is lost ? > But it could be rewritten! Presumably. But it's not easy to replicate the work of a wizard like Richie Lary. The microcode assembler is probably less of a problem. Another issue would be to reconstruct the RSTS support code for loading the microcode and running PDP8 jobs, which doesn't seem to be around anymore either. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 1 11:56:49 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 17:56:49 +0000 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: <86065efc-6bea-7f7d-549f-c48659186f1b@verizon.net> References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> , <86065efc-6bea-7f7d-549f-c48659186f1b@verizon.net> Message-ID: I'm not sure how something as simple as a cassette interface could be causing so much issues. Can you post a schematic of what you have now and what the signal amplitude is? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of allison via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 3:10:50 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cassette Interface Assistance On 03/01/2017 01:40 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 2/28/2017 2:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: snippage > Obviously, given the LM339 issues, this is unworkable in the end, but > it did get me to realizing some outputs on the LM339, so thanks to > both of you. > > I can plainly see the oscillation on the comparator transitions, so it > is obvious I need a better comparator. I'll have to source a few > different comparator options from Digikey to fill my parts box. > Suggestions are welcome. OR a bit of positive feedback. >> Using the internal AVR comparator sounds like a better final solution >> (fewer components), but in devising an >> input circuit for the AVR you may be running into the same issue of >> loading a high-impedance source. > Though it plays into Tonly's notes about my analog understanding (or > lack thereof), I was so disillusioned by the analog uncertainties that > I initial focused on the AVR comparator. By correctly biasing the > comparator, I was able to get much better results tonight, but the > lack of any ability to add hysteresis into the design hindered my > success. At transition, the signal simply bounces badly. I tried to > construct a low pass filter (22pF and 5K6), and some variations, but I > was not able to overcome. I then tried to deal with it in SW, but I > have not yet been successful. I'll try again, but lack of hysteresis > is a big issue. > Single transistor audio amp before it. Allison > Jim > > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Mar 1 13:14:56 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:14:56 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation Message-ID: Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for early Multics installations (and other systems) the sound of the Selectric operator's console. I/O Selectrics are rare, expensive and unreliable. If some good quality audio clips of a Selectric were available, it should be possible to jimmy up the console terminal emulator to make the sounds. So I am fishing for any existing audio clips with clean sounds, or someone with a Selectric that is willing to make some recordings, or a pointer to somewhere where all of this has been done already. -- Charles From wilson at dbit.com Wed Mar 1 13:34:46 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 14:34:46 -0500 Subject: Ersatz-11 V7.3 Message-ID: <20170301193446.GA23076@dbit.dbit.com> Ersatz-11 V7.3 is finished. CDs have been mailed to users with current update subscriptions, and the free Demo version may be downloaded from www.dbit.com/demo.html as usual. E11 V7.3 has the following new features: - My favorite one: a BREAKPOINT command which accepts arbitrary boolean test expressions, compiles them into native x86 code (to reduce the speed penalty), and incorporates them (until disabled with BREAK/CLEAR) into the main fetch/decode loop). Examples: break pc >= 2000 and pc < 3000 and @(r4+4) = 42776 (range of code with specified value in block pointed to by R4) break ci(pc)&177400 = 104000 (about to fetch an EMT instruction) break phys(14634520) <> 3044 (location at physical address gets changed from expected value) Errors at run-time are silent. If a specified test causes a bus timeout, odd address trap, or division by 0, the test fails. Well OK division by *constant* 0 gives an error but I just mean nothing damaging happens if the registers aren't pointing where you thought, etc. - A few rare antique emulated devices: DC11 SLU. Basically similar to the DL11 (ignoring the extra CSR bits and programming it like a DL11A works), but it also has a settable baud rate and modem control which is different from how it was done on DL11s. - Also the DM11 single-speed serial mux (not that E11 minds running each line at a different speed, but the original did). It uses DMA for transmission but also for reception into an in-core FIFO which the documentation adorably calls the "tumble table". And yes this is the origin of the DM11BB modem-control option more commonly used on the DH11. There's a new command to tell DM11BBs which to attach to (the default is still the DH11 with the same controller letter). - Finally, the justifiably forgotten TR79F 1600 BPI tape controller for TR79 drives (really HP7970Es), which includes the parity track in core with each byte of tape data taking up a word, so it's a pain to program. But it had 1600 BPI pretty early. The only driver I can find for the TR79F is in the "TRDP" version of XXDP, which is on Bitsavers as a scan of a microfiche of the listing. It can be used to load the ZTRAB0 diagnostic (the only other program I know of for the TR79F), but of course the test immediately trashes your boot tape. I felt dumb. - Driver for raw ATA/SATA/ATAPI disks (DOS and stand-alone versions). - Driver for National Instruments PCI-DIO-96 digital I/O card (DOS and stand-alone versions). It's a bad fit to emulating the DRV11/DR11C (ASSIGN OA: DIO96: does work but you'd have to wire up an adapter with buffering since the drivers are rated at only 2.5 mA) but it's probably the most common digital I/O board around. Even though it's PCI (not PCIe), it's still made new (at great expense), but cheap used examples are everywhere. - Ability to use a digital I/O card to drive real display and switch registers. Wiring up a blinky-lights board for your $25 eBay PCI-DIO-96 is a lot easier than making one for current PC busses, even if the 100-pin D-shell plug is a pain (but AMP makes an IDC connector that brings it out to two 50-pin Bergs).. - SET HISTOGRAM command enables/disables histogram of PDP-11 opcode usage (which again is temporarily compiled into the main loop when enabled). HISTOGRAM command displays the results or saves them to a file. - EXAMINE/DEPOSIT /BYTE /WORD /LONG /QUAD switches support various data types besides just words. Finally. - MOUNT FILE.TAP /LENGTH:n or /SIZELIMIT:nMB enables emulation of EOT early warning flag (giving the approximate maximum length of the tape in feet or megabytes). Not generally needed (who minds an unlimited tape?), but some diags want to fill a tape with test data all the way to EOT. - ASSIGN NULL: /LOOPBACK switch. Does what you think. - Experimental POWERFAIL command simulates power failures on command, or SET POWERFAIL command schedules one at shutdown (with a core dump to a file). Thank you Oleg Safiullin for the idea! Might need some changes -- I've never dealt with power failures on a real PDP-11. - Dramatically improved timer precision in DOS and stand-alone versions. SET THROTTLE in particular is silky smooth, but this improvement affects many many things. - All commands that take a time duration as a parameter will now accept a decimal point and/or unit suffix. The default units are the same as in previous versions. So instead of SET THROTTLE DELAY=1 (microseconds), you can use SET THROTTLE DELAY=1.2 or SET THROTTLE DELAY=1200NS (values will be rounded if needed). I hadn't realized so many places use time values -- I might have missed something. There are also many bug fixes and minor changes, but most importantly: - WMSG.LOG file that grows and grows (in Windows versions). Sorry about that! That was supposed to be disabled in the released version. Well it is now. John Wilson D Bit From fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET Wed Mar 1 13:39:12 2017 From: fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET (Fred) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 14:39:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 33, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 17 > Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 20:10:33 +0100 > From: Lars Brinkhoff > To: Mattias Engdeg?rd > Subject: Re: DEC VT100/220 line wrapping semantics sought > Mattias Engdeg?rd wrote: > > Data for VT100, VT220 and VT510 have been collected, as well as > > several emulators > > (https://github.com/mattiase/wraptest/blob/master/results.txt). If > > anyone has access to other working terminals, VT3xx/VT4xx in > > particular, I'd be most grateful if you would take a few minutes to > > run the test program. > > I have a VT420 set up for my kid to play with. I'll borrow it and > submit a pull request with the results. > I have a VT525 in my home office that I use to read the mail (including this and other mailing lists) when I don't want to fire up a workstation. (It's quick, simple, and I get check/send a message without much fuss). Would results from that terminal help? Fred From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 1 13:39:16 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:39:16 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> On 03/01/2017 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for early > Multics installations (and other systems) the sound of the Selectric > operator's console. There is no way that I'd wish anyone would have to put up with the 80+ dB "white noise" of fans and vacuum pumps (tape drives), not to mention the scream of a train printer working or a high speed card punch or the clatter of a high-speed card reader. After a few hours, your nerves would be badly frayed. My department resorted to distributing those yellow sponge rubber earplugs. There are certain experiences that I would not rather relive for the sake of nostalgia. Computer room noise would be right up there with kidney stones and root canals. Nor would I, for the sake of nostalgia, want to relive a day of setting logging chokers on a steep hillside. --Chuck From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 1 13:46:37 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 19:46:37 +0000 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 03/01/2017 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: >> Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for early >> Multics installations (and other systems) the sound of the Selectric >> operator's console. > > There is no way that I'd wish anyone would have to put up with the 80+ > dB "white noise" of fans and vacuum pumps (tape drives), not to mention > the scream of a train printer working or a high speed card punch or the > clatter of a high-speed card reader. > > After a few hours, your nerves would be badly frayed. My department > resorted to distributing those yellow sponge rubber earplugs. But presumably on an emulator there will be some kind of volume control. Or even unplug the speaker(s) if you want silence... -tony From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Mar 1 13:51:27 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:51:27 +0100 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: <907C8B6B-CFA2-4B7C-A1A3-608F127F5EDF@comcast.net> References: <907C8B6B-CFA2-4B7C-A1A3-608F127F5EDF@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20170301195127.GW16529@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Mar 01, 2017 at 12:17:10PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > On Mar 1, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > On 03/01/2017 05:27 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > >> I have heard that story to. _IF_ you have WCS for the 11/60 ... not very common. > >> But even with WCS installed, there is a ?small? problem: the PDP-8 microcode > >> for the 11/60 is lost ? > > But it could be rewritten! > > Presumably. But it's not easy to replicate the work of a wizard like Richie Lary. > > The microcode assembler is probably less of a problem. Another issue would be to reconstruct the RSTS support code for loading the microcode and running PDP8 jobs, which doesn't seem to be around anymore either. > > paul > Many pieces to the pussle. But I read on alt.sys.pdp10 that there was a presentation at DECUS Europ "probably the one at Heathrow in 1978". So maybe there are some meeting notes out there with more info. /P From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 1 14:03:39 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:03:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> On 03/01/2017 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: >>> Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for early > On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk >> There is no way that I'd wish anyone would have to put up with the 80+ >> dB "white noise" of fans and vacuum pumps (tape drives), not to mention >> the scream of a train printer working or a high speed card punch or the >> clatter of a high-speed card reader. On Wed, 1 Mar 2017, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > But presumably on an emulator there will be some kind of volume control. > Or even unplug the speaker(s) if you want silence... But, the REAL experience did not include volume control or speaker disconnect! THAT was part of the real experience. The Computer History Museum had a running 1401 room. But, they did more conscientious maintenance that we were accustomed to in the old days, so it just didn't SMELL the same. A dish of oil on a hotplate might be close enough, until SMELL-O-VISION catches on. From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Mar 1 14:07:06 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:07:06 -0700 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> On 03/01/2017 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for >>>> early >> >> On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk >>> >>> There is no way that I'd wish anyone would have to put up with the 80+ >>> dB "white noise" of fans and vacuum pumps (tape drives), not to mention >>> the scream of a train printer working or a high speed card punch or the >>> clatter of a high-speed card reader. > > On Wed, 1 Mar 2017, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> >> But presumably on an emulator there will be some kind of volume control. >> Or even unplug the speaker(s) if you want silence... > > > But, the REAL experience did not include volume control or speaker > disconnect! THAT was part of the real experience. > > The Computer History Museum had a running 1401 room. But, they did more > conscientious maintenance that we were accustomed to in the old days, so it > just didn't SMELL the same. A dish of oil on a hotplate might be close > enough, until SMELL-O-VISION catches on. From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Mar 1 14:09:56 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:09:56 -0700 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: [ stupid gmail ] On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >>>> On 03/01/2017 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for >>>>> early >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk >>>> >>>> There is no way that I'd wish anyone would have to put up with the 80+ >>>> dB "white noise" of fans and vacuum pumps (tape drives), not to mention >>>> the scream of a train printer working or a high speed card punch or the >>>> clatter of a high-speed card reader. >> >> On Wed, 1 Mar 2017, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> But presumably on an emulator there will be some kind of volume control. >>> Or even unplug the speaker(s) if you want silence... >> >> >> But, the REAL experience did not include volume control or speaker >> disconnect! THAT was part of the real experience. >> >> The Computer History Museum had a running 1401 room. But, they did more >> conscientious maintenance that we were accustomed to in the old days, so it >> just didn't SMELL the same. A dish of oil on a hotplate might be close >> enough, until SMELL-O-VISION catches on. The real experience also included the sudden assault on your nose when a random, and sometimes unkempt, user would grab a printout from the giant printout wall. There was no avoiding that! The users at the terminal often times were also a mixed bag and you rolled the dice and took your chances with what you'd get. There was no end to the random smells from cigarettes, to pot, to whatever crazy food was on sale in town, to lord knows what perfume or sandalwood. That part of the experience is going to be quite difficult to replicate.... Warner From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Mar 1 14:13:35 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:13:35 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <751087d1-8ffe-606a-62dc-fe191543c665@jwsss.com> On 3/1/2017 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > So I am fishing for any existing audio clips with clean sounds, or someone > with a Selectric that is willing to make some recordings, or a pointer to > somewhere where all of this has been done already. > > -- Charles Golfball typewriter group on yahoo for a lot of people who have Selectrics. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/golfballtypewritershop/info I suspect this is someone on the group on Youtube with an I/O Selectric https://youtu.be/CRdma6NINIw From mattiase at acm.org Wed Mar 1 13:53:22 2017 From: mattiase at acm.org (=?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?=) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:53:22 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 33, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99F420A1-A4E5-4477-99CC-A8B7358D9D50@acm.org> 1 mars 2017 kl. 20.39 skrev Fred via cctalk : > > I have a VT525 in my home office that I use to read the mail (including > this and other mailing lists) when I don't want to fire up a workstation. > (It's quick, simple, and I get check/send a message without much fuss). > Would results from that terminal help? Yes it would! From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Mar 1 14:22:07 2017 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:22:07 +0100 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <751087d1-8ffe-606a-62dc-fe191543c665@jwsss.com> References: <751087d1-8ffe-606a-62dc-fe191543c665@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 01/03/17 21:13, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > On 3/1/2017 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: >> So I am fishing for any existing audio clips with clean sounds, or >> someone >> with a Selectric that is willing to make some recordings, or a >> pointer to >> somewhere where all of this has been done already. >> >> -- Charles > Golfball typewriter group on yahoo for a lot of people who have > Selectrics. > > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/golfballtypewritershop/info > > I suspect this is someone on the group on Youtube with an I/O Selectric > > https://youtu.be/CRdma6NINIw > Yes, that's me! More I/O Selectric sounds available on request - it's sitting in my employer's office connected to the 360/30 panel+emulator. But it tends to sound much the same whatever it's printing. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Mar 1 14:29:26 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:29:26 -0400 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2017-03-01 3:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 03/01/2017 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: >> Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for early >> Multics installations (and other systems) the sound of the Selectric >> operator's console. > There is no way that I'd wish anyone would have to put up with the 80+ > dB "white noise" of fans and vacuum pumps (tape drives), not to mention > the scream of a train printer working or a high speed card punch or the > clatter of a high-speed card reader. .... or the wailing of the operator when he realizes he put the carriage control tape on backwards of did not put down the brushes, its amazing how much paper you can stuff under the cover of a 1403.... > > After a few hours, your nerves would be badly frayed. My department > resorted to distributing those yellow sponge rubber earplugs. I have been in rooms where they had a box of earplugs at the door, but that came later in my field service rep days we where told that the noise was at a "safe" level, however I do know of at least one person that is still in field service that now has hearing aids that are paid for by the company. > > There are certain experiences that I would not rather relive for the > sake of nostalgia. Computer room noise would be right up there with > kidney stones and root canals. Nor would I, for the sake of nostalgia, > want to relive a day of setting logging chokers on a steep hillside. > > --Chuck > > > > Paul. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Mar 1 14:54:11 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:54:11 -0400 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> On 2017-03-01 3:14 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for early > Multics installations (and other systems) the sound of the Selectric > operator's console. > > I/O Selectrics are rare, expensive and unreliable. They are all mechanical and stood up remarkably well to hammering away day and night printing out the console log, considering what they are, I would hardly think unreliable fits. Most of the problems where due to neglect or poor maintenance. The norm was to do a little as possible plus customers where often reluctant to give up the console for maintenance, so worm parts that should have been replaced often never did. Quite often the center bears where worn out which causes the cycle shaft to wobble a little and then you start fudging the adjustments to compensate and it just gets worse from there, but replacing the center bearing is a big job so most people avoided it. This was true of other selectric terminals as well. The OP guys ( fixed the office selectrics) would be horrified when they saw the condition of some of these machines. The last 1052 I saw operating the space cam was so worn out that it wobbled, but it still worked. The original selectric I/O was just a standard office selectric with contacts and solenoids hung off it to make it work as a terminal, or in the case of the 1052 a printer ( the keyboard in a 1052 is a keypunch keyboard mechanism). They where never designed to hammer away at the full speed 15.5 cps for hours on end. Later IBM came out with the I/O 2 which was designed from the ground up to be used as a I/O device and was much sturdier, but they came along too late for system consoles, by then consoles where CRTs and the console printer was a wire matrix printer. > > If some good quality audio clips of a Selectric were available, it should > be possible to jimmy up the console terminal emulator to make the sounds. > > So I am fishing for any existing audio clips with clean sounds, or someone > with a Selectric that is willing to make some recordings, or a pointer to > somewhere where all of this has been done already. > > -- Charles Paul. From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Mar 1 15:22:06 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 14:22:06 -0700 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> References: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> Message-ID: All this talk of the sounds hammering away and the console reminded me. There's another part of the experience: when a system crashed... There was a distinctive pattern of sounds when the register dump was printed, some beeps from the console and often the groans of the people that were affected when the system rebooted... Warner From albiorix at gmail.com Wed Mar 1 15:29:44 2017 From: albiorix at gmail.com (Neil Thompson) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 23:29:44 +0200 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> Message-ID: What about the chilling sound of a head crash? Ziiinnnnggg kluk kluk kluk... On 1 March 2017 at 23:22, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > All this talk of the sounds hammering away and the console reminded me. > > There's another part of the experience: when a system crashed... > > There was a distinctive pattern of sounds when the register dump was > printed, some beeps from the console and often the groans of the > people that were affected when the system rebooted... > > Warner > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Mar 1 15:37:50 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:37:50 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <751087d1-8ffe-606a-62dc-fe191543c665@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 12:22 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 01/03/17 21:13, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > >> On 3/1/2017 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: >> >>> So I am fishing for any existing audio clips with clean sounds, or >>> someone >>> with a Selectric that is willing to make some recordings, or a pointer to >>> somewhere where all of this has been done already. >>> >>> -- Charles >>> >> Golfball typewriter group on yahoo for a lot of people who have >> Selectrics. >> >> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/golfballtypewritershop/info >> >> I suspect this is someone on the group on Youtube with an I/O Selectric >> >> https://youtu.be/CRdma6NINIw >> >> Yes, that's me! More I/O Selectric sounds available on request - it's > sitting > in my employer's office connected to the 360/30 panel+emulator. But it > tends to sound much the same whatever it's printing. > > I think that youtube clip has enough for at least a proof-of-bad-idea test. Yes, each typed character's sound is pretty much indistinguishable, but the mind is very good at detecting the same sound multiple times in a row, so sampling a handful of strikes and picking randomly should fix that. The sound of the shift key prepositioning the typeball. The sound of " ". The CR/LF sound; at some point at might be could to have different clips of different line length CRs. I still need the "Alert Bell" sound. (From the Honeywell 6001 Operator's console, not the 360/91 fire alarm bell, though). Thank you all, -- Charles From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed Mar 1 16:22:10 2017 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 17:22:10 -0500 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm replying to the "top level" original message just to put some other comments in on "full immersion" emulation, without trampling over the discussions that are going on about the sound experience. On 1 March 2017 at 14:14, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for early > Multics installations (and other systems) the sound of the Selectric > operator's console. > Don't forget what a machine room and the equipment looks like. If one wanted to go "full immersion" it might be an idea to acquire an HTC Vive and develop the it as a simulation VR experience. Then you get the sights and the sounds. With the Vive (and not the Oculus Rift) you also get the room scale VR "stuff" and hand tracking controllers. You can add in more things than just the sounds of the terminal, you can include mundane tasks like swapping disk packs, swapping tapes, and using the various consoles and buttons on the devices. Just to point out this kind of simulation of an location with "things to do" has been done in VR. May I present to the list, for your delectation: "New Retro Arcade: Neon" It's a VR recreation of an arcade. Naturally, there's all kinds of hurdles to deal with in creating a simulation like that. First of all VR (at present) needs beefy computers (Do you have a high end gaming graphics card on a modern up specced PC? No? Then no VR for you!) and the VR hardware itself isn't cheap. Next there's the development time investment, and while the Vive's hand controllers do let you manipulate things in the VR envrionment they're most assuredly not what you'd want to use for typing at a simulated keypunch, printing terminal, or video terminal. (Though you can just use your PC's keyboard for that. And for machines that have mice (workstations, anyone?) you can also use the mouse too; light guns/light pens can be "done" with the hand controllers. Then there's the topic of *cost* you could release it for free, but there's a lot of work that has to go into the thing. Selling it for cost well, the market is limited so you'd probably not really make anything (I'd sure as hell buy it... if I could afford a beefy PC and VR hardware). And let's not get anywhere *near* the topic of including the software to run on the simulated hardware with the program. Though, if it was a simulator of an IBM System/370 ("Who wants to reimplement Hercules in a game engine? No one? Smart move...") you could throw in MVS or OS/360 since they're both in the public domain. You could provide the software as just the "naked" simulator, with the user needing to acquire disk/tape images on their own initiative, but now you've reduced the number of people from outside of the already "expert" community of us classic computer hobbyists who would be able to use the software. One could also make such a simulation in a regular 3D game engine and then bolt on VR support later. That's a much larger "market" in terms of people who could run it, though it wouldn't be nearly as immersive as a VR experience. Though it would still be fun to try. (Look up "My Summer Car" it's an indie game where a main is putting together and then driving a beat up junker of a Datsun 100A.) Anyways, I'm rambling. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Mar 1 16:30:00 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 17:30:00 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system Message-ID: <144f3a7.a27788a.45e8a568@aol.com> actually when it all shows up as cc talk as the sender it is of value as we can clear the group of mail faster after I have picked out the topics relative to what we are working on. Ed# In a message dated 3/1/2017 2:47:11 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 28 February 2017 at 21:23, Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > OK, it's official. I rarely criticize mail interfaces, because they're > usually > mostly innocuous. However, today's change makes life a lot more difficult. > > In the past, it was simple to direct a reply to an individual instead of > to the > list because the originator's address was right there in the From: > header. As > of today, the list address is substituted for that, so that it is > impossible to > respond privately... Users. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Mar 1 17:01:51 2017 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 00:01:51 +0100 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1488409311.3777.3.camel@agj.net> ons 2017-03-01 klockan 16:29 -0400 skrev Paul Berger via cctalk: > > On 2017-03-01 3:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 03/01/2017 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > >> Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for early > >> Multics installations (and other systems) the sound of the Selectric > >> operator's console. > > There is no way that I'd wish anyone would have to put up with the 80+ > > dB "white noise" of fans and vacuum pumps (tape drives), not to mention > > the scream of a train printer working or a high speed card punch or the > > clatter of a high-speed card reader. > .... or the wailing of the operator when he realizes he put the carriage > control tape on backwards of did not put down the brushes, its amazing > how much paper you can stuff under the cover of a 1403.... The classic thing is discovering due to the printer's howl that all the requirements for one of the batch jobs wasn't done.... From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 1 17:22:25 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 15:22:25 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 03/01/2017 11:46 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > But presumably on an emulator there will be some kind of volume > control. Or even unplug the speaker(s) if you want silence... But then, what of the "realism"? Is the sound of a half-ton of dynamite going off realistic at 50 dB? Many aspects of "the good old days" weren't all that good. I suppose we could also provide a sensation of reality by slowing our modern systems to a crawl, having them go down every few days, and include some rats under a raised floor. Thank you, no. I like my computers quiet. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 1 18:55:29 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 17:55:29 -0700 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3/1/2017 4:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 03/01/2017 11:46 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> But presumably on an emulator there will be some kind of volume >> control. Or even unplug the speaker(s) if you want silence... > > > But then, what of the "realism"? Is the sound of a half-ton of > dynamite going off realistic at 50 dB? Many aspects of "the good old > days" weren't all that good. > > I suppose we could also provide a sensation of reality by slowing our > modern systems to a crawl, having them go down every few days, and > include some rats under a raised floor. Thank you, no. You mean like using the INTERNET. I read translated Asian novels, and the update a chapter ever few days, and that is my favorite site with all crap ads,bells and whistles. Two to three minutes just load a ascii text file on the screen, on a good day. > I like my computers quiet. > > --Chuck Well we talk to tablets and phones now, how long before they talk back? Ben. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Mar 1 19:22:28 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:22:28 -0500 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2017-03-01 7:55 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 3/1/2017 4:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 03/01/2017 11:46 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> But presumably on an emulator there will be some kind of volume >>> control. Or even unplug the speaker(s) if you want silence... >> >> >> But then, what of the "realism"? Is the sound of a half-ton of >> dynamite going off realistic at 50 dB? Many aspects of "the good old >> days" weren't all that good. >> >> I suppose we could also provide a sensation of reality by slowing our >> modern systems to a crawl, having them go down every few days, and >> include some rats under a raised floor. Thank you, no. > > You mean like using the INTERNET. I read translated Asian novels, > and the update a chapter ever few days, and that is my favorite > site with all crap ads,bells and whistles. Two to three minutes > just load a ascii text file on the screen, on a good day. > >> I like my computers quiet. >> >> --Chuck > > Well we talk to tablets and phones now, how long before they talk back? And when they do: ?6079 Smith W.! Yes, YOU! Bend lower, please! You can do better than that. You?re not trying.' --Toby > Ben. > > > From brain at jbrain.com Wed Mar 1 19:40:38 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 19:40:38 -0600 Subject: Cassette Interface Assistance In-Reply-To: References: <5a490b41-7ee9-5147-ff1e-c40c37a61ebb@jbrain.com> <86065efc-6bea-7f7d-549f-c48659186f1b@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 3/1/2017 11:56 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm not sure how something as simple as a cassette interface could be causing so much issues. > > Can you post a schematic of what you have now and what the signal amplitude is? Hmm, It's currently a jumble of wires and clips and such on the bench. I'll see if I can make some sense of it. Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 1 21:21:17 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 21:21:17 -0600 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> References: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> Message-ID: <58B78FAD.9010405@pico-systems.com> On 03/01/2017 02:54 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > > On 2017-03-01 3:14 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: >> Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room >> sounds; for early >> Multics installations (and other systems) the sound of >> the Selectric >> operator's console. >> >> I/O Selectrics are rare, expensive and unreliable. > They are all mechanical and stood up remarkably well to > hammering away day and night printing out the console log, > considering what they are, I would hardly think unreliable > fits. Well, we still had a Selectric (1050) on our 360/65 at Washington University up until the end. I'm pretty sure it was the most unreliable part of the machine. It seems about every two weeks it would break the timing belt, which meant the clutch had to be rebuilt. IBM had two 1050's there, and would swap them every time one broke. They really did run the 1050 hard on that system, it was printing a line about every 10 seconds for about 14 hours straight every week day. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 1 22:36:11 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:36:11 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <58B78FAD.9010405@pico-systems.com> References: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> <58B78FAD.9010405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 03/01/2017 07:21 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Well, we still had a Selectric (1050) on our 360/65 at Washington > University up until the end. I'm pretty sure it was the most > unreliable part of the machine. It seems about every two weeks it > would break the timing belt, which meant the clutch had to be > rebuilt. IBM had two 1050's there, and would swap them every time > one broke. They really did run the 1050 hard on that system, it was > printing a line about every 10 seconds for about 14 hours straight > every week day. That's one area where CRTs are sooo much better. The S/360 machines just pounded the hell out of the SYSLOG device. I guess the Selectrics were better than the Model B-based console typewriters, which always seemed as if they were going to fly apart. As a typewriter, the Selectric is pretty good. I still have a correcting Selectri III with a broken drive belt (I have a new belt waiting to be installed), but I haven't gotten up the courage to repair it myself yet--it's not a simple job. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Mar 1 22:52:19 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:52:19 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> <58B78FAD.9010405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 3/1/2017 8:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > That's one area where CRTs are sooo much better. The S/360 machines > just pounded the hell out of the SYSLOG device. I guess the Selectrics > were better than the Model B-based console typewriters, which always > seemed as if they were going to fly apart. > > As a typewriter, the Selectric is pretty good. I still have a > correcting Selectri III with a broken drive belt (I have a new belt > waiting to be installed), but I haven't gotten up the courage to repair > it myself yet--it's not a simple job. > > --Chuck IBM called up the local guy for our area when the University bought the 360/50 and told him to report for training. They delivered a /40 for a year because of problems with making the 50 work. He was the regional IBM Selectric repair guy. The 1050 on our systems always ran fine. As did all the Selectrics around the area. He still had those support calls. thanks Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 2 00:04:27 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 00:04:27 -0600 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> <58B78FAD.9010405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <58B7B5EB.4020508@pico-systems.com> On 03/01/2017 10:52 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/1/2017 8:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> That's one area where CRTs are sooo much better. The >> S/360 machines >> just pounded the hell out of the SYSLOG device. I guess >> the Selectrics >> were better than the Model B-based console typewriters, >> which always >> seemed as if they were going to fly apart. >> >> As a typewriter, the Selectric is pretty good. I still >> have a >> correcting Selectri III with a broken drive belt (I have >> a new belt >> waiting to be installed), but I haven't gotten up the >> courage to repair >> it myself yet--it's not a simple job. >> >> --Chuck > IBM called up the local guy for our area when the > University bought the 360/50 and told him to report for > training. They delivered a /40 for a year because of > problems with making the 50 work. > > He was the regional IBM Selectric repair guy. The 1050 on > our systems always ran fine. As did all the Selectrics > around the area. He still had those support calls. > Well, I remember the /50 at Rolla, they ran very little locally while I was there, mostly used it as an RJE terminal. Cards and 1402 printer. So, the 1050 was not real busy. The /65 at Wash U was very heavily used, and souped up to the 9's. It had dual internal memories (as opposed to the horrible predecessor, a model 50 with LCS, which made it run slower than a /40). With the dual identical memory units, you could use interleaving. Anyway, they had 2 Memorex 3764 DASD controllers, first with Calcomp 3330 emulators, and then with Memorex 3350 substitutes. They got Memorex to hack up a version of MP65 so that they could take advantage of RPS. They also had a bank of Hitachi 200 IPS tape drives. And, so, the 1050 was just chattering away almost constantly from about 7 AM to 7 PM. I think they finally got a CRT for the tape operator. But, they kept the 1050 as main console for the hardcopy record. Jon From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Mar 2 00:26:16 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 22:26:16 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <58B7B5EB.4020508@pico-systems.com> References: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> <58B78FAD.9010405@pico-systems.com> <58B7B5EB.4020508@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <8c0e66dd-0345-f40a-54ef-2fa2f03eefe9@jwsss.com> On 3/1/2017 10:04 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Well, I remember the /50 at Rolla, they ran very little locally while > I was there, mostly used it as an RJE terminal. > Cards and 1402 printer. So, the 1050 was not real busy. It ran MVT21 thru 1975. The MVT version of the workstation was one of the first ever run on an actual 360 in some time. Most people were using 360/20's with the RJE code supplied with Hasp. The 360/20 code was all macros and quite fun to read, whereas the one for such as the 50 was not. I know they had to fix some bugs and customize it so that they could enter jobs to both the data center in Columbia and still run local jobs. Just some magic on the job card. Normal users never saw it, but the printer code was modified to spool jobs locally for printing. the only thing that was done of a major modification is that they decommissioned the CPS system, which was the interactive PL1 system. The 2741s and controller were dedicated to a setup to allow access to TSO remotely which was in Columbia, Mo. CPS could not share terminals with any OS functions. When CPS and OS/MVT were running MVT had no clue that CPS terminal hardware was attached. You could however spool print jobs. CPS was implemented as a firmware extension, and ran in a 1mb attached LCS when it was up. With 30 2741s which I didn't mention earlier we certainly had the right CE. You couldn't interchange the type balls, but everything else worked the same. thanks jim From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Mar 2 01:13:24 2017 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:13:24 +0100 Subject: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, given recent posts about Unibus graphic systems, I'm coming back with a request: was anyone some documentation about board sets VT30-H and VTV30-J? They should be graphic systems as well, the former Unibus, the latter Qbus. Definitely I think they aren't "regular" DEC products, maybe they were developed by third parties, as the PCB realization and style is far from DEC boards. I think they are really hard to find parts, would like to try to do something with it. Thanks Andrea From wilson at dbit.com Thu Mar 2 01:36:11 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 02:36:11 -0500 Subject: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170302073611.GA7361@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 02, 2017 at 08:13:24AM +0100, shadoooo via cctalk wrote: >was anyone some documentation about board sets VT30-H and VTV30-J? >They should be graphic systems as well, the former Unibus, the latter Qbus. >Definitely I think they aren't "regular" DEC products, maybe they were >developed by third parties, as the PCB realization and style is far from >DEC boards. I've got a photocopied user's manual in this mess somewhere (used for the "VR:" VT30 emulation in E11). My recollection is that it was built by DEC CSS UK, but even if true, that doesn't mean they couldn't have farmed out the design and/or PCB layout. John Wilson D Bit From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Mar 2 03:27:16 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:27:16 -0000 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <58B78FAD.9010405@pico-systems.com> References: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> <58B78FAD.9010405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <007001d29337$2f7fe180$8e7fa480$@outlook.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > via cctalk > Sent: 02 March 2017 03:21 > To: Paul Berger ; General at classiccmp.org; > Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Full immersion emulation > > On 03/01/2017 02:54 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 2017-03-01 3:14 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > >> Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for > >> early Multics installations (and other systems) the sound of the > >> Selectric operator's console. > >> > >> I/O Selectrics are rare, expensive and unreliable. > > They are all mechanical and stood up remarkably well to hammering away > > day and night printing out the console log, considering what they are, > > I would hardly think unreliable fits. > Well, we still had a Selectric (1050) on our 360/65 at Washington University up > until the end. I'm pretty sure it was the most unreliable part of the machine. > It seems about every two weeks it would break the timing belt, which meant > the clutch had to be rebuilt. IBM had two 1050's there, and would swap > them every time one broke. They really did run the 1050 hard on that > system, it was printing a line about every 10 seconds for about 14 hours > straight every week day. > > Jon I am a bit surprised you go that many belt breakages. The one on the 360/67 at Newcastle was utterly reliable, as was the 2741 we had on our remote connection, and also the same unit in the 1130 console. The usual reason for belt breakages is contamination with oil which attacks the rubber so perhaps there was some over enthusiasm going on here. On the other hand I do remember that the CE who came into the IBM Manchester (UK) office to fix the IBM 1800 based PABX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1750,_2750_and_3750_Switching_Systems used to curse, as the 2741 console on that was usually switched off, so got gummed up, and required a clean and lube before he could start work on the PABX.... Dave From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Mar 2 06:26:25 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 07:26:25 -0500 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <97ec8550-b48b-5044-deec-78054860aa95@verizon.net> On 3/1/17 3:07 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >>>> On 03/01/2017 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for >>>>> early >>> On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk >>>> There is no way that I'd wish anyone would have to put up with the 80+ >>>> dB "white noise" of fans and vacuum pumps (tape drives), not to mention >>>> the scream of a train printer working or a high speed card punch or the >>>> clatter of a high-speed card reader. >> On Wed, 1 Mar 2017, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>> But presumably on an emulator there will be some kind of volume control. >>> Or even unplug the speaker(s) if you want silence... >> >> But, the REAL experience did not include volume control or speaker >> disconnect! THAT was part of the real experience. >> >> The Computer History Museum had a running 1401 room. But, they did more >> conscientious maintenance that we were accustomed to in the old days, so it >> just didn't SMELL the same. A dish of oil on a hotplate might be close >> enough, until SMELL-O-VISION catches on. No idea what the big deal is about.... ;) I just fire up the PDP-11/73 (RL02, RX02, RD52x3,), then Microvax-II/GPX, Then the PDP-8f.... WHAT? OH YES IT'S LOUD! The 11.73 has fans in the RX02, BA11 box, Rack back door near top and then the RL02 spinning. The PDP8f has two very high volume fans. The only thing I have that's close to that is the homebrew S100 case with two 120cfm fans that blow across the boards and a pair of 8" shugart drives (with fans as well). Warms the room well and makes the power meter spin pretty good too. Allison From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 2 07:30:56 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 14:30:56 +0100 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2 March 2017 at 01:55, ben via cctalk wrote: > Well we talk to tablets and phones now, how long before they talk back? A short list of shipping products that do that: Amazon Echo https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01GAGVIE4/ Google Home https://madeby.google.com/home/ Microsoft Cortana https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/cortana (The latter is a free component of Windows 10 Anniversary Update. It startled both me, and later my landlord, when I demonstrated to him that I could operate a (nearly 10-year-old) laptop by just talking to it, and it answering. I have a Win10AE partition on this desktop, but it has no microphone or camera. I prefer it that way, TBH. :?) Summary: it is in fact some time since speech became a primary, and indeed sole, UI for some products. This is indeed their selling point: you automate your home by asking an "intelligent" assistant to dim the lights, or for a weather forecast, or to record a TV program for you, etc. It's not coming soon. It's been here for a couple of years now. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Mar 2 07:36:55 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:36:55 -0400 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <3f760a84-2ea5-3015-efb7-b0f5caf7f651@gmail.com> <58B78FAD.9010405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2017-03-02 12:36 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 03/01/2017 07:21 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> Well, we still had a Selectric (1050) on our 360/65 at Washington >> University up until the end. I'm pretty sure it was the most >> unreliable part of the machine. It seems about every two weeks it >> would break the timing belt, which meant the clutch had to be >> rebuilt. IBM had two 1050's there, and would swap them every time >> one broke. They really did run the 1050 hard on that system, it was >> printing a line about every 10 seconds for about 14 hours straight >> every week day. > > That's one area where CRTs are sooo much better. The S/360 machines > just pounded the hell out of the SYSLOG device. I guess the Selectrics > were better than the Model B-based console typewriters, which always > seemed as if they were going to fly apart. > > As a typewriter, the Selectric is pretty good. I still have a > correcting Selectri III with a broken drive belt (I have a new belt > waiting to be installed), but I haven't gotten up the courage to repair > it myself yet--it's not a simple job. > > --Chuck Its a lot easier on an OP selectric than it is on an I/O, on an I/O there is a lot more stuff in the way. After you change a few dozen it gets pretty routine. One of the banking terminals I serviced would jam mid-cycle if the type ball hit the line finder on the document feed, and since thy had a stronger motor than the OP selectric it would at least tear teeth off the belt if it didn't break it. In some banks the terminals where set into the counter so the bank's customers would come by to offer their sage advise while you had one torn apart for something like a motor belt. Paul. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 2 10:11:34 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:11:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Mar 2017, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Summary: it is in fact some time since speech became a primary, and > indeed sole, UI for some products. This is indeed their selling point: > you automate your home by asking an "intelligent" assistant to dim the > lights, or for a weather forecast, or to record a TV program for you, > etc. > It's not coming soon. It's been here for a couple of years now. And, it will reach a level of reliability to actually be usable, "in a few more years". "next year in jerusalem!" Attempts at speech recognition date back to the Bells (Alexander Melville Bell and his son Alexander Graham "quick with a patent" Bell). Now, Siri can tell Kripke, "I'm sorry Bawwy, I don't understand 'wecommend a westauwant'" Radio Shack at one time sold a repackaged Votrax voice output, a voice input, and an X-10 interface, as add-ons to TRS80 (model 1). It hardly took any time at all to get those to the point where it would accept, "LET THERE BE LIGHT", and respond with, "BY YOUR COMMAND", and do an X10 "LIGHTS ON". None of those accessory peripherals lasted long. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 2 11:01:46 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 10:01:46 -0700 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <314b8cf3-659b-b210-0aea-9b85056a52e6@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/2/2017 9:11 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 2 Mar 2017, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> Summary: it is in fact some time since speech became a primary, and >> indeed sole, UI for some products. This is indeed their selling point: >> you automate your home by asking an "intelligent" assistant to dim the >> lights, or for a weather forecast, or to record a TV program for you, >> etc. >> It's not coming soon. It's been here for a couple of years now. > > And, it will reach a level of reliability to actually be usable, "in a > few more years". "next year in jerusalem!" > > Attempts at speech recognition date back to the Bells (Alexander > Melville Bell and his son Alexander Graham "quick with a patent" Bell). > > Now, Siri can tell Kripke, "I'm sorry Bawwy, I don't understand > 'wecommend a westauwant'" > > Radio Shack at one time sold a repackaged Votrax voice output, a voice > input, and an X-10 interface, as add-ons to TRS80 (model 1). It hardly > took any time at all to get those to the point where it would accept, > "LET THERE BE LIGHT", and respond with, "BY YOUR COMMAND", and do an X10 > "LIGHTS ON". None of those accessory peripherals lasted long. > A new MUSEM project. :) Ben. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 2 15:28:33 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 21:28:33 -0000 Subject: Reading an ICT/ICL EDS8 (?) Disk Pack Message-ID: <003d01d2939b$f2291bc0$d67b5340$@ntlworld.com> I have been on the lookout for software for an emulator of MU5 that I am building. Manchester University has found a disk pack that is promisingly labelled. The disk pack has been provisionally identified as an ICL EDS8, apparently compatible with an IBM 2311 and with the mechanical assembly based on a CDC 9450. The University has asked The National Museum of Computing (TNMOC) is they have a drive that could read this disk pack, but it seems that although they have such a drive, they have no plans to restore it. Does anyone know of a working drive that might be able to read this pack? Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 2 19:16:00 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:16:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Heathkit tube checker available Message-ID: <20170303011600.488B118C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, all, I have a Heathkit TC-3 tube checker, including manual and prints, available. Image here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/tmp/TubeChecker.jpg It has been modified with an after-market Coletronics panel with a bunch of additional tube bases. Condition is unknown; it probably hasn't been powered on in some years. It was in my wife's father's basement, so it was in a cool, dry space, at least. I know this isn't the best list for this, but I'm not on those lists; can people here who are, please forward it to those lists? Any interest, reply to me only, please - no need to litter the list! Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Mar 2 19:28:00 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:28:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Heathkit tube checker available In-Reply-To: <20170303011600.488B118C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170303011600.488B118C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201703030128.UAA15512@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Hi, all, I have a Heathkit TC-3 tube checker, including manual and > prints, available. Image here: > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/tmp/TubeChecker.jpg Oh, man, that takes me back. As a kid, back when electronics meant vacuum tubes (because that was what I had access to), I had a (completely different) tube tester...I wonder what became of it. Not that I would have any real use for it these days. > Any interest, reply to me only, please - no need to litter the list! Might be nice to say where it is geographically. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 2 19:41:48 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:41:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Heathkit tube checker available Message-ID: <20170303014148.0B7BF18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mouse > Might be nice to say where it is geographically. Yorktown, Virginia, U.S.A. Noel From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Mar 2 22:39:40 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 22:39:40 -0600 Subject: ViaNet? Message-ID: I recently ran across a manual and disks for a PC networking product called ViaNet. It was marketed by Western Digital and targeted toward Arcnet, although it looks like it worked with Ethernet and other topologies. There isn't a lot of info out there about it but there are a few pieces in the old trade mags on Google Books. It was peer-to-peer between PCs, but there was also a UNIX host server product for it. Anyone ever worked with it? I scanned the manuals and posted them here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/WesternDigital And the disk images are here: http://nocarrier.net/archive/floppy_images/PC/WesternDigital/ -j From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Mar 2 12:12:06 2017 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 19:12:06 +0100 Subject: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, it would be a very nice thing to put the hands on a copy of such manual! :) Given that I didn't find ANY information on Google about these boards, except for the bare description in the PDP11 field guide, it would be very nice to archive a copy on bitsavers too... If you manage to find something, please let me know thanks Andrea >I've got a photocopied user's manual in this mess somewhere (used for the "VR:" VT30 emulation in E11). From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Mar 2 14:58:09 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:58:09 +0000 Subject: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Well, I did scribble a bit about the VT30 and VSV11 on my website ? Check out www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/comm/vsv11/vsv11-info.html www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/comm/vt30h/vt30h-info.html Van: shadoooo via cctech Verzonden: donderdag 2 maart 2017 19:12 Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 Well, it would be a very nice thing to put the hands on a copy of such manual! :) Given that I didn't find ANY information on Google about these boards, except for the bare description in the PDP11 field guide, it would be very nice to archive a copy on bitsavers too... If you manage to find something, please let me know thanks Andrea >I've got a photocopied user's manual in this mess somewhere (used for the "VR:" VT30 emulation in E11). From suea.pac at gmail.com Thu Mar 2 17:36:18 2017 From: suea.pac at gmail.com (Susan Anderson) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 18:36:18 -0500 Subject: huge thank you Message-ID: Hi: Just a quick note to thank the cc forum for providing a platform to publicize our needs in an (nostalgic?) attempt to re-create a Data General Eclipse and Nova environment that we used for a number of years, over 40 years ago, in what I thought might well be a fruitless endeavor. Were it not for this forum, and in particular the generous assistance of Mr.Jay Jaeger of Wisconsin, the project would have never gotten off the ground. As it is, progress is now in store! Gratefully, Roger H. Anderson Endwell NY From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 00:26:27 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 22:26:27 -0800 Subject: DEC DW11 information? In-Reply-To: References: <2818965f-111f-c599-523b-20edeaf615c8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <83f609fe-e8ea-5e0a-14ff-73a9030f0da2@gmail.com> On 2/27/17 10:02 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 4:32 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Hi all - >> >> Anyone have any technical information (manuals, schematics, etc.) for the >> DEC DW11 UNIBUS->QBus interface? I'm curious to know what it's capable of > I am pretty sure I have the printset for it somewhere. I think the > VS11 prints also > include it (the VS11 is a VSV11 with said interface to allow it to be > used on the > Unibus). Yeah, the VS11 drawings have the M8217 schematics, so that's useful. It'd be nice to find an actual manual, but it's a good start. > >> and what the requirements are, especially on the QBus side of things. What >> kind of backplane is required? I assume it doesn't support 22-bit QBus >> devices given the age of the interface (and the complexity required to do >> so), but does it handle 18-bit devices, or only 16? > >From memory it handles 18 bit addressing (not 22, of course), interrupts and > NPR (DMA). The Unibus side (quad card) goes in any SPC slot, you have to > remove the NPG jumper. It links with a pair of 40 way ribbon cables to the > Qbus board (dual height) which goes in the 'first' slot of a Qbus backplane, > where the CPU board wound normally go. AFAIK there are no real restrictions > on the Qbus backplane, I have used one to hang a MINC chassis off a Unibus > processor. > > I seems to be transparent in operation. You just acccess Qbus devices at their > normal addresses. Cool. I managed to snag an M8217+M9403 so all I need to do is track down/build some cabling to tie the two together (any idea what the max length of these cables is?). I'm kind of hoping I can use it to run a QBus SCSI controller, amongst other things. I'll report back my findings... Thanks, - Josh > > -tony > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 00:31:53 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:31:53 +0000 Subject: DEC DW11 information? In-Reply-To: <83f609fe-e8ea-5e0a-14ff-73a9030f0da2@gmail.com> References: <2818965f-111f-c599-523b-20edeaf615c8@gmail.com> <83f609fe-e8ea-5e0a-14ff-73a9030f0da2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 6:26 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Cool. I managed to snag an M8217+M9403 so all I need to do is track > down/build some cabling to tie the two together (any idea what the max Officially it's just a pair of standard DEC 40 way ribbon cables. > length of these cables is?). I'm kind of hoping I can use it to run a QBus But _unofficially_ I've seen it run with the signals going down a pair of the round cables used with RK07 drives (not the RL ones which don't have all pins wired). So that was ribbon cable - bulkhead connector - RK07 type cable - bulkhead connector - ribbon cable. And it worked. > SCSI controller, amongst other things. I'll report back my findings... I've run RL drives off a RLV11 on a unibus machine with a DW11-B. That used interrupts and DMA. I would think a SCSI controller should work -tony From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 02:50:48 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 00:50:48 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Charles, Then you are the one that asked for the permission to use the sound of my "Golf Ball Madness" Selectric video (shameless plug: https://youtu.be/vOIPN70f_-Id ). A) go right ahead and B) turns out I have a high end recording studio installation at home. I can record clean high quality samples for you, just contact me off list for exactly what you need. Talking about old computer sounds, for the story, you'll be happy to know that the punched card reader sounds used in Hidden Figures are from "our" IBM 1402 at CHM, recorded from... a cell phone. Marc > On Mar 1, 2017, at 11:14 AM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > > Part of the iconic mainframe experience is the cold room sounds; for early > Multics installations (and other systems) the sound of the Selectric > operator's console. > > I/O Selectrics are rare, expensive and unreliable. > > If some good quality audio clips of a Selectric were available, it should > be possible to jimmy up the console terminal emulator to make the sounds. > > So I am fishing for any existing audio clips with clean sounds, or someone > with a Selectric that is willing to make some recordings, or a pointer to > somewhere where all of this has been done already. > > -- Charles From wilson at dbit.com Fri Mar 3 02:22:26 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 03:22:26 -0500 Subject: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170303082226.GA4172@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 02, 2017 at 07:12:06PM +0100, shadoooo via cctech wrote: >Well, it would be a very nice thing to put the hands on a copy of such >manual! :) >Given that I didn't find ANY information on Google about these boards, >except for the bare description in the PDP11 field guide, it would be very >nice to archive a copy on bitsavers too... >If you manage to find something, please let me know You'll be the first to know! Nothing ever goes away permanently, it just slips into the strata for a few years. It'll turn up. Do you have the whole unit or just the boards? It'd be great if you could run it. I have a little test program that throws stuff on the screen but it's never been run on real hardware so it may be a filthy lie. John Wilson D Bit From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 04:27:05 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 03:27:05 -0700 Subject: Clock program for COSMAC Elf microcomputer with PIXIE graphics Message-ID: I've written a clock program to run on an unexpanded Elf with PIXIE graphics. It proved to be quite a challenge to fit it into 256 bytes, but I've now got it working, with two bytes of RAM to spare. There are 12-hour and 24-hour versions. I've released it under the GPL 3.0 license. The source code is in a github repository: https://github.com/brouhaha/elf-clock A text file containing instructions and hexadecimal object code is at: https://github.com/brouhaha/elf-clock/releases/download/v0.1/elf-clock-v0.1.txt From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Mar 3 07:16:23 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 13:16:23 +0000 Subject: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 In-Reply-To: <0d3a01d2940b$4e0c0f50$ea242df0$@gmail.com> References: , , <0d3a01d2940b$4e0c0f50$ea242df0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oops, typo ? I missed one folder. The correct links are www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/comm/interface/vsv11/vsv11-info.html www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/comm/interface/vt30h/vt30h-info.html While ?promoting?, I also added a page for the RP03 www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rp11-rp03/rp11-rp03.html It will be some time before pictures of the system and more info will land here. I am re-organizing my 2250 square feet ? but not yet clear how everything will be placed. Van: Paul Birkel Verzonden: vrijdag 3 maart 2017 11:45 Aan: 'Henk Gooijen' Onderwerp: RE: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 Henk: In case you haven't noticed, neither of those URLs are yet active :-<. To Your Good Health! -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen via cctech Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 3:58 PM To: shadoooo; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: RE: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 Well, I did scribble a bit about the VT30 and VSV11 on my website . Check out www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/comm/vsv11/vsv11-info.html www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/comm/vt30h/vt30h-info.html Van: shadoooo via cctech Verzonden: donderdag 2 maart 2017 19:12 Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 Well, it would be a very nice thing to put the hands on a copy of such manual! :) Given that I didn't find ANY information on Google about these boards, except for the bare description in the PDP11 field guide, it would be very nice to archive a copy on bitsavers too... If you manage to find something, please let me know thanks Andrea >I've got a photocopied user's manual in this mess somewhere (used for the "VR:" VT30 emulation in E11). From ed at groenenberg.net Fri Mar 3 07:31:11 2017 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:31:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 In-Reply-To: References: , , <0d3a01d2940b$4e0c0f50$ea242df0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <24133.212.108.17.1.1488547871.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Henk, Your 'XXXX' high speed lineprinter is most likely a Dataproducts Model 2230 (a.k.a Dec LP05). Regards, Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1Lk6141nvDKPxtCa5erfFyovsoJN2LKqNJ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 3 09:17:22 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:17:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Able board on eBay Message-ID: <20170303151722.6525218C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So there was an odd board from Able up on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/311809552775 Anyone know what it was? From the Able product summary it looked a bit like an Interlink/U or perhaps an Enable - although the detailed chip layout didn't look like the illustrations of either. Anyone know? Also, speaking of the Able ENABLE, I've recently discovered more about it, and now understand pretty much how it works. Noel From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 09:22:30 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 07:22:30 -0800 Subject: Able board on eBay In-Reply-To: <20170303151722.6525218C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170303151722.6525218C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I looked it up a couple of days ago. It's in a brochure on Bitsavers: http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/able/brochures/Able_Computer_Product_Brochures_1982.pdf See page 12. It's one part of a DMAX/16. The same seller had the other half for sale as well (mislabeled). Not nearly as cool as an Enable :). I was bummed I got outbid on the Qniverter the seller had for sale (which was listed as a "Univerter"). - Josh On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 7:17 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So there was an odd board from Able up on eBay: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/311809552775 > > Anyone know what it was? From the Able product summary it looked a bit > like an > Interlink/U or perhaps an Enable - although the detailed chip layout didn't > look like the illustrations of either. Anyone know? > > Also, speaking of the Able ENABLE, I've recently discovered more about it, > and > now understand pretty much how it works. > > Noel > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 10:13:53 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 17:13:53 +0100 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2 March 2017 at 17:11, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > And, it will reach a level of reliability to actually be usable, "in a few > more years". "next year in jerusalem!" I haven't tried either the Google or Amazon offerings. I have tried to teach my elderly mother to use Siri and Google speech recognition on her iPad, but unsuccessfully. I have played with Cortana and it's decent. It is the beginning of something useful. But I have, for instance, a blind friend who has an Amazon Echo and he likes it. It can control his lighting & heating for him, two things difficult for blind people to do. He also uses Siri a lot on his iPhone and it too works well for him. We both find it ironic that an almost-buttonless phone is the most accessible to blind people, but it is and it works. Now with Siri, it's better. He just dictates text messages and emails and it can spell better than he can. It is not great, but it works, now, today, and it's selling. > Now, Siri can tell Kripke, "I'm sorry Bawwy, I don't understand 'wecommend a > westauwant'" Heh. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Mar 3 10:31:21 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:31:21 -0600 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20170303163121.GE24559@lonesome.com> On Thu, Mar 02, 2017 at 08:11:34AM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > It hardly took any time at all to get those to the point where it would > accept, "LET THERE BE LIGHT" "I'll ... have to think about it." mcl From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 3 10:34:24 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:34:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Able board on eBay Message-ID: <20170303163424.6C22718C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > It's one part of a DMAX/16. Oooh, good catch. I hadn't looked carefully at those faint images, I was just looking at the brochure which had the separate images. > Not nearly as cool as an Enable :). Yes; the ENABLE was pretty clever: it used an MUD backplane as an EUB backplane, to hold the ENABLE and stock EUB memory cards; both the CPU _and_ DMA devices were on the incoming UNIBUS, and the ENABLE could tell whether a read-write cycle was from the CPU, or a DMA device (if you look at the UNIBUS spec, there's just enough to do that, even without being able to see NPG), and routed it through the appropriate mapping, depending. Noel From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 10:44:28 2017 From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (A Unhealthy Dosage of Dank Memes) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:44:28 -0600 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C4E08C5-088A-4269-ADE1-D23F4A20897E@gmail.com> Is anyone confirmed to be picking this stuff up? There is a *very* small change I would be able to if nobody else can or will (I would prefer not to). It would pain me to see all this stuff go to scrap. Thanks > On Feb 28, 2017, at 5:42 AM, LJW cctech via cctalk wrote: > > Via Mike Ross, but contact Greg with any questions! > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Greg Bebermeyer" > Date: Feb 27, 2017 4:44 AM > Subject: IBM System/32 - web response > To: > Cc: > > Hi Mike, > > Maybe this is no longer relevant since I can't tell from the web page how recent the post is... I am selling my house and in the back of the garage is a complete System/32 that was working when I stuck it there and covered it. Much other stuff is in front of it so I haven't seen it in a while. It's free for the taking to anyone willing to come to East Lansing, Michigan and pick it up. If you aren't interested then it'll just go to the scrappers because I need to get the place ready for inspection. The junk haulers should uncover it in a day or two at which point I could take pictures. > > I also have a PDP-11/60, if you know of anyone interested. Same deal - free, come pick it up. The 11/60 main box has been stored in a dry basement along with two RL01 disk drives (in free standing cabinets, not rack mounted) along with a box of flat interconnect cables. It was used in a cardiac unit to run heart monitors and has an extra card cage full of interface cards. Also there's 3 PDP-11/34s in a rack in the garage as well. All this stuff has to go in about a week to 10 days, unless arrangements/promises are made and kept. > > If you're interested in any of this stuff, or could refer me to someone who might be, I would love for this stuff to go to a good home. Yup, I started with FORTRAN and 80-column punch cards. Thanks. > > My best, > -Greg Bebermeyer > bebergee at gmail.com > greg.bebermeyer at gmail.com > > > -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 3 10:48:39 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:48:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI Message-ID: <20170303164839.C9ECD18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Is anyone confirmed to be picking this stuff up? I sent the person an email, never heard back. Ditto for one of the people here who said they'd sent the person an email - I sent them an email, asking if they'd heard back, never got an answer from them either. Noel From steve.maresca at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 10:59:23 2017 From: steve.maresca at gmail.com (Steven Maresca) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:59:23 -0500 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: <20170303164839.C9ECD18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170303164839.C9ECD18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Is anyone confirmed to be picking this stuff up? > > I sent the person an email, never heard back. > > Ditto for one of the people here who said they'd sent the person an email > - I > sent them an email, asking if they'd heard back, never got an answer from > them > either. > > Noel > Likewise, I have not heard back either. Steve From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Mar 3 11:50:27 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 17:50:27 +0000 Subject: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 In-Reply-To: <24133.212.108.17.1.1488547871.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: , , <0d3a01d2940b$4e0c0f50$ea242df0$@gmail.com> , <24133.212.108.17.1.1488547871.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: Van: E. Groenenberg Verzonden: vrijdag 3 maart 2017 14:30 Aan: Henk Gooijen; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: RE: DEC VT30-H and VTV30-J, was VSV11 Henk, Your 'XXXX' high speed lineprinter is most likely a Dataproducts Model 2230 (a.k.a Dec LP05). Regards, Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1Lk6141nvDKPxtCa5erfFyovsoJN2LKqNJ Thanks! I had no information at all, so this is a good start! A quick google search turned up one picture that matches the printer, and the web page says that the LP05 was indeed made by Dataproducts. More google fu later ? From wilson at dbit.com Fri Mar 3 13:58:23 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:58:23 -0500 Subject: Binary keypad front panel Message-ID: <20170303195823.GA13644@dbit.dbit.com> I made this as a joke, but also as a simple test device for a NatInst PCI-DIO-96 GPIO card I was writing a driver for: https://www.facebook.com/john.m.b.wilson/videos/10212562451077947/ It occurred to me that lots of old machines had binary front panels (switches and lights) and lots of machines had keypad front panels (octal or hex, with 7-segment LEDs), but I'd never seen a binary keypad front panel. Plus I wanted to experiment with Cherry MX keyswitches, and try out wasdkeyboards's custom keycaps (but they're $7/ea so I didn't want to try anything too big the first time). That plus two 74LS132s, four 74LS240s, and two 74LS273s, discrete stuff and cabling, and a PCI-DIO-96 that was $25 on eBay, and it works. "set dr dio96:" in the DOS and stand-alone versions of E11 V7.3 makes it (or anyone else's homemade doohicky) appear at 777570 as usual (or you can add "set dr r0" to get the R0-during-WAIT display like on a PDP-11/70 -- whatever your OS's NULJOB uses). I'd give Gerbers to anyone who cares but really it's just a dumb joke. Fun one though. John Wilson D Bit From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 14:41:48 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:41:48 -0600 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> On 02/28/2017 07:43 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 02/28/2017 05:21 PM, Jon Auringer wrote: >> >> Chuck, >> >> I had the same display issue. Uncheck "Show only display name for >> people in my address book" under Tools-Options-Display-Advanced. > > Jon, > > Thanks for the hint! I'm using the Linux version of Thunderbird, so the > setting isn't under "Tools"; it took me a bit of searching to find it. > In the *nix version, it appears to be under Edit->Preferences->Display. Thanks to both of you. I came back to cctalk after not checking it for a few days, and wondered what the %$#^ was going on, with every message showing with cctalk as the "from" field. It is indeed under edit/preferences/display on my version, too. I'm not sure why it's not consistent with the non-Linux versions, I would have thought a consistent UI across all platforms was a Good Thing. cheers Jules From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 14:46:12 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 13:46:12 -0700 Subject: Binary keypad front panel In-Reply-To: <20170303195823.GA13644@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20170303195823.GA13644@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Mar 3, 2017 12:58 PM, "John Wilson via cctalk" wrote: > It occurred to me that lots of old machines had binary front panels > (switches and lights) and lots of machines had keypad front panels (octal > or hex, with 7-segment LEDs), but I'd never seen a binary keypad front > panel. It wasn't a computer, but the first commercial frequency-synthesized scanning receiver, the Tennellec Memoryscan, circa 1974, used a binary keypad. It came with a fat book listing a 16-bit binary code for each frequency the scanner could receive. You could program up to 16 such codes into the scanner. My grandfather bought one for my grandmother when I was 10 years old, and I was put in charge of programming in the codes for the frequencies my grandmother selected. Since I already new binary, I worked out formulas for the codes so that I wouldn't have to use the book. That way I could program the scanner in only ten times the time. It did come in handy some years later when my grandmother wanted to changes the frequencies, but the code book had been lost. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 14:52:04 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:52:04 -0600 Subject: Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III - IDE drives? Message-ID: <2c433944-782b-8bec-b208-4fec9d0a5853@gmail.com> Just checking here, as someone told me that this is the case, but do the Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III take stock 40-pin IDE hard drives? I just wanted to make sure that they weren't expecting something that might be a bit non-standard before I go trying to find modern replacements for a pair of failing disks. Assuming that an enormous modern(ish) drive is OK, are there any other gotchas involved in configuration and formatting? Obviously I don't need a partition bigger than a few tens of MB, but perhaps there are things to keep in mind when fitting a drive that's most likely to be getting on for a thousand times the capacity of the original. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 3 15:08:55 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 13:08:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III - IDE drives? In-Reply-To: <2c433944-782b-8bec-b208-4fec9d0a5853@gmail.com> References: <2c433944-782b-8bec-b208-4fec9d0a5853@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Mar 2017, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Just checking here, as someone told me that this is the case, but do the > Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III take stock 40-pin IDE hard drives? I > just wanted to make sure that they weren't expecting something that might be > a bit non-standard before I go trying to find modern replacements for a pair > of failing disks. I think so, but I also think that Compaq's IDE was before it was completely standardized, so there might be some glitches. > Assuming that an enormous modern(ish) drive is OK, are there any other > gotchas involved in configuration and formatting? Obviously I don't need a > partition bigger than a few tens of MB, but perhaps there are things to keep > in mind when fitting a drive that's most likely to be getting on for a > thousand times the capacity of the original. 1) If you are going period OS, get Compaq MS-DOS V3.31. Anything prior to that is limited to 32MB per partition. 2) You may want to use a "disk manager overlay" to be able to use specs other than the BIOS ones: http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/compaq3.html From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 16:03:48 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 17:03:48 -0500 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: References: <20170303164839.C9ECD18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170303170348.ce0233b96f67b0d03ce63232@gmail.com> > Ditto for one of the people here who said they'd sent the person an email Whoops, ended up in the spam folder! No, I haven't heard back either. I sent a follow-up and CCed the second address in his email. Provided my office phone number, no reply or calls. Thanks, Jonathan From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Mar 3 16:07:07 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:07:07 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III - IDE drives? In-Reply-To: References: <2c433944-782b-8bec-b208-4fec9d0a5853@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/3/2017 1:08 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 3 Mar 2017, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> Just checking here, as someone told me that this is the case, but do >> the Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III take stock 40-pin IDE hard >> drives? I just wanted to make sure that they weren't expecting >> something that might be a bit non-standard before I go trying to find >> modern replacements for a pair of failing disks. > > I think so, but I also think that Compaq's IDE was before it was > completely standardized, so there might be some glitches. > > The bios has a table that you can dump out as usual, which is unique to the Compaq portable 3. Other than that and having to modify the table to accommodate the new drive geometry, I had no problem. It was possible to run 200mb drives, as all of min have such on them. >> Assuming that an enormous modern(ish) drive is OK, are there any >> other gotchas involved in configuration and formatting? Obviously I >> don't need a partition bigger than a few tens of MB, but perhaps >> there are things to keep in mind when fitting a drive that's most >> likely to be getting on for a thousand times the capacity of the >> original. > > 1) If you are going period OS, get Compaq MS-DOS V3.31. Anything > prior to that is limited to 32MB per partition. > > 2) You may want to use a "disk manager overlay" to be able to use > specs other than the BIOS ones: > http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/compaq3.htm I ran Pick and other systems other than DOS and modified the roms to have new geometry. The entries up to #13 match the IBM. I think #4 and #20, IIRC are the common ones you see as evidenced by a sticker on the case behind the plasma display. The Roms are simple to modify, if you know that they are Even / Odd for a 16 bit total width. you will have to figure out a new checksum and modify the last byte of the rom to come up 0. Again, if i recall you need to make the overall sum come up = 0. I always read the rom from high memory into ram and wrote a simple loop to add up the checksum in AL. The play with the last byte till you get it back to 0. I ran Pick R83 on all of mine, with an 8way and streaming tape card in the expansion bay. A very nifty 286 or 386 8 user system for demos back in the days thanks jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 3 16:11:21 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 15:11:21 -0700 Subject: Binary keypad front panel In-Reply-To: <20170303195823.GA13644@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20170303195823.GA13644@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On 3/3/2017 12:58 PM, John Wilson via cctalk wrote: > I made this as a joke, but also as a simple test device for a NatInst > PCI-DIO-96 GPIO card I was writing a driver for: > > https://www.facebook.com/john.m.b.wilson/videos/10212562451077947/ > > It occurred to me that lots of old machines had binary front panels > (switches and lights) and lots of machines had keypad front panels (octal > or hex, with 7-segment LEDs), but I'd never seen a binary keypad front > panel. Plus I wanted to experiment with Cherry MX keyswitches, and try out > wasdkeyboards's custom keycaps (but they're $7/ea so I didn't want to try > anything too big the first time). That plus two 74LS132s, four 74LS240s, > and two 74LS273s, discrete stuff and cabling, and a PCI-DIO-96 that was > $25 on eBay, and it works. > > "set dr dio96:" in the DOS and stand-alone versions of E11 V7.3 makes it > (or anyone else's homemade doohicky) appear at 777570 as usual (or you can > add "set dr r0" to get the R0-during-WAIT display like on a PDP-11/70 -- > whatever your OS's NULJOB uses). I'd give Gerbers to anyone who cares > but really it's just a dumb joke. Fun one though. > > John Wilson > D Bit > Use a TELEPHONE keypad 0-7 OCTAL 8 and 9 binary. :) From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Mar 3 15:14:22 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 16:14:22 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III - IDE drives? In-Reply-To: <2c433944-782b-8bec-b208-4fec9d0a5853@gmail.com> References: <2c433944-782b-8bec-b208-4fec9d0a5853@gmail.com> Message-ID: <94c213f2-8ff6-b7e0-c56f-e200a4ad5ab5@verizon.net> On 03/03/2017 03:52 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > Just checking here, as someone told me that this is the case, but do > the Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III take stock 40-pin IDE hard > drives? I just wanted to make sure that they weren't expecting > something that might be a bit non-standard before I go trying to find > modern replacements for a pair of failing disks. > > Assuming that an enormous modern(ish) drive is OK, are there any other > gotchas involved in configuration and formatting? Obviously I don't > need a partition bigger than a few tens of MB, but perhaps there are > things to keep in mind when fitting a drive that's most likely to be > getting on for a thousand times the capacity of the original. > > cheers > > Jules > > > > One caveat... Max drive size was 500mb. You can use larger but the first partition must be 500mb and the second is only usable to the limits of the OS version. For example the hardware (BIOS) will boot the OS in the first 500mb partition and of the OS such as Win3.11 can handle up to only 500mb if memory serves but there can be many partitions. The other thing is the BIOS much be able to setup for the drive geometry, some only have a predefined list. That machine was seen with drives in the up to 340 or 420mb scale over time and larger than 40mb was not uncommon. If you can find a working ST3660A (500mb) that might be a good one to go with. I'd max the drive at 1Gb. Larger may not work. Allison From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 16:23:17 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:23:17 -0800 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: <20170303170348.ce0233b96f67b0d03ce63232@gmail.com> References: <20170303164839.C9ECD18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170303170348.ce0233b96f67b0d03ce63232@gmail.com> Message-ID: FWIW, the LCM+L inquired and heard back earlier this week, apparently the gear has been claimed. Hopefully that's true... - Josh On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Systems Glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Ditto for one of the people here who said they'd sent the person an email > > Whoops, ended up in the spam folder! No, I haven't heard back either. I > sent a follow-up and CCed the second address in his email. Provided my > office phone number, no reply or calls. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 16:33:52 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 16:33:52 -0600 Subject: Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III - IDE drives? In-Reply-To: References: <2c433944-782b-8bec-b208-4fec9d0a5853@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 03/03/2017 03:08 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 3 Mar 2017, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> Just checking here, as someone told me that this is the case, but do the >> Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III take stock 40-pin IDE hard drives? I >> just wanted to make sure that they weren't expecting something that might >> be a bit non-standard before I go trying to find modern replacements for >> a pair of failing disks. > > I think so, but I also think that Compaq's IDE was before it was completely > standardized, so there might be some glitches. Yes, that's my concern. I thought it may even be expecting something like XTA, but I suppose that doesn't really make sense given the '286 or '386 CPU (I only picked up the Portable III last weekend and I'm not sure which CPU it has - I believe that the later ones had the '386) > 1) If you are going period OS, get Compaq MS-DOS V3.31. Anything prior to > that is limited to 32MB per partition. Well, I suspect 32MB will be plenty :-) I don't think I've ever actually tried putting a large-capacity IDE disk into a machine which was designed for something much smaller (I've always had a stash of period drives kicking around in case of failure). I'm not sure if it all gets translated into a linear address somewhere between system and drive anyway[1], so I can pretty much pick any BIOS drive type and expect it to just work (obviously at massively-reduced capacity!), or if the drive really is addressed via CHS and so I need to pick type[2] carefully (or look into LLF). [1] And I know that I used to know the answer to things like that, but it all fell out of my head years ago :-( [2] Maybe picking something that's "smaller in all dimensions" works, though? It would waste some enormous number of sectors on each track, but that's not really an issue if it works! > 2) You may want to use a "disk manager overlay" to be able to use specs > other than the BIOS ones: > http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/compaq3.html Aha, some useful info there - thanks! cheers, Jules > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 16:48:11 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 16:48:11 -0600 Subject: Cekit 8085 micro trainer Message-ID: I picked up a Cekit 8085 microprocessor trainer last weekend, model MT-01. Google seems to be of no help - has anyone else here got one of these? There's nothing really specific that I wanted to know, but it's just odd that there seems to be no info out there at all about it. Some of the writing on the PCBs is in Spanish, and it says on the back that it was made by Cekit for EKI - but throwing that into the Google pot doesn't appear to be of any help. I'm not even sure how old it is. The CPU, I/O chip and some of the logic is dated 1983/84, but then there are a handful of Goldstar 74LSxx ICs with 90xx codes on them. It may be that Goldstar just didn't follow date code conventions, or it's quite possible that it really is that recent (and some of the ICs just came from much older stock). cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 3 16:54:55 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:54:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III - IDE drives? In-Reply-To: References: <2c433944-782b-8bec-b208-4fec9d0a5853@gmail.com> Message-ID: IIRC, at least some models did support a 500MB drive. (1023 Cylinders, 15 heads, more then 17 sectors per track) If you can find the Compaq EGA board, it will work with the internal monitor, and provide almost usable Windoze. (Look for the connector mid-board) There was also an ATI EGA card (with add-on) for Compaq. Or, you could add a VGA, as a second video card. Windoze would work with CGA, but 640x200 was clunky. For Windoze 3.10 or 3.11, you need some memory above 1MB. (A20) (Windoze 3.00 did not need memory above 1MB, and could un on 8088) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wilson at dbit.com Fri Mar 3 17:03:17 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:03:17 -0500 Subject: Binary keypad front panel In-Reply-To: References: <20170303195823.GA13644@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20170303230317.GA16656@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 03, 2017 at 03:11:21PM -0700, ben via cctalk wrote: >Use a TELEPHONE keypad 0-7 OCTAL 8 and 9 binary. :) I like it! Or else make them dit and dah (like on a Morse keyer) so you can have alphanumeric entry? Eons ago a friend of mine wanted to design an audio protocol (e.g. using a Votrax SC-01 and an ADC), figuring that the word "ZERO!" has a lot more of a high-frequency component so it wouldn't take much processing (this was in 8-bit days) to distinguish it from "ONE!". The snag was that he wanted to add "WHAT?" as an error-correction feature. John Wilson D Bit From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 17:59:53 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 16:59:53 -0700 Subject: Clock program for COSMAC Elf microcomputer with PIXIE graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 3:27 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I've written a clock program to run on an unexpanded Elf with PIXIE > graphics > A few seconds of video of it running on a Netronics Elf II: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKCsw_7wpdw From dancohoe at oxford.net Fri Mar 3 21:44:31 2017 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 22:44:31 -0500 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: References: <20170303164839.C9ECD18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <00d901d29499$a1f23d40$e5d6b7c0$@oxford.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Maresca via cctalk Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 11:59 AM To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Is anyone confirmed to be picking this stuff up? > I'll put my hand up on this. Much of the trove had already gone to scrap before this group got wind of it. And for a lot of it that was probably the right thing though it pains me to say that. The house cleaners had been there before I contacted the owner immediately after the message appeared on the list. The S/32 all went to scrap as it had been a possum home for a number of years, the 11/60 cabinets were scrapped a few days prior to the list contact and the 11/34 had also been severely damaged by animals while being stored in a garage for approximately 10 years. The 11/60 processor was stored in better conditions and consists of two BA11 style boxes. There was a well preserved Flexowriter recovered in pieces, but likely complete, and a bunch of ADM3a terminals. I also brought home a very, very rough TU 55. Unfortunately another, possibly a TU 56, had been scrapped a few days earlier as well. The owner, Greg, was one of the nicer people I have met over the years. He lives near the MSU surplus sale site and was a good customer there. We need a better way to be recognized as a place to post situations like this earlier in people's decision process on how to clear out a house. BTW, I should also report on the recovery of the Triad system early in January. Will Donzelli and I came back from that location with the Triad rack, a re-badged Interdata system (8-32) and a lot of interesting terminals as well as a few CDC 9726H cartridge drives. We may have a system for this, but have not had time to investigate. Regards, Dan From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Mar 3 16:19:56 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:19:56 -0800 Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI In-Reply-To: <20170303170348.ce0233b96f67b0d03ce63232@gmail.com> References: <20170303164839.C9ECD18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170303170348.ce0233b96f67b0d03ce63232@gmail.com> Message-ID: If $s are needed, I would toss a few in to have someone save the 11/60 .. many fond memories of S/N #6 Hope someone gets a hold of this guy -pete On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Systems Glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Ditto for one of the people here who said they'd sent the person an email > > Whoops, ended up in the spam folder! No, I haven't heard back either. I > sent a follow-up and CCed the second address in his email. Provided my > office phone number, no reply or calls. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Mar 4 01:38:41 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 08:38:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Mar 2017, Jules Richardson wrote: > Thanks to both of you. I came back to cctalk after not checking it for a few > days, and wondered what the %$#^ was going on, with every message showing > with cctalk as the "from" field. I'm another one who dislikes the new system. It would be much better if the Reply-To field did *not* contain the sender's email address because when I reply to a message, I use the Reply-To field (of course) and have to delete the extra line because I want to reply to the list and *not* privately to the sender. So either the sender's address should be in the >From field or in a new header field, e.g. List-Original-Sender or something like that. For now I have set up a procmail rule to strip the "via cctalk" from the >From field because this is ugly and redundant. Christian From ams at gnu.org Sat Mar 4 02:15:08 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 03:15:08 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: (message from Christian Corti via cctalk on Sat, 4 Mar 2017 08:38:41 +0100 (CET)) References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> Message-ID: The whole "foo via cctalk" is *really* annoying... What is wrong with a half default mailman setup? There is no Reply-To header there, From is set to the person actually sending the message (as it should be). And all the bounce addresses are set to cctalk-bounces+foo=bar at classiccmp.org where foo=bar is the user sending the message. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Mar 4 02:40:22 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 00:40:22 -0800 Subject: I the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <85989738-0677-ab3c-febc-c9b7958d32ce@jwsss.com> On 3/3/2017 11:38 PM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 3 Mar 2017, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Thanks to both of you. I came back to cctalk after not checking it >> for a few days, and wondered what the %$#^ was going on, with every >> message showing with cctalk as the "from" field. > > I'm another one who dislikes the new system. It would be much better > if the Reply-To field did *not* contain the sender's email address > because when I reply to a message, I use the Reply-To field (of > course) and have to delete the extra line because I want to reply to > the list and *not* privately to the sender. So either the sender's > address should be in the >> From field or in a new header field, e.g. List-Original-Sender or > something like that. > For now I have set up a procmail rule to strip the "via cctalk" from the >> From field because this is ugly and redundant. > > Christian Thunderbird is putting in the list with the person in the Reply-To being an additional recipient in the To: I have not bothered stripping that extra. The via ctalk is useful as a target for filtering the traffic. For some reason there is leakage of detected emails on google. It is perhaps due to prior mentioned non conforming emails of some sort, don't know, their filtering sucks. But it may be that that will allow me to catch more if not all of the cctalk traffic in gmail. I'm subscribed three times for archival purposes. I read via an email subscription that ends up in a Thunderbird file via pop3 from that server. Never misses with the email rule. I wanted an outside the building forget it archive I could peruse, so created a subscription into my gmail account. That one is leaking about 1 to 5 messages a week using the same rule as Thunderbird, which is based on email to / from etc. And a third subscription goes to an account on a server which pulls everything via fetchmail. That subscription has nothing but Cctalk on it. i have it as my main archive if all else fails. (and Thunderbird is getting flaky, and has failed). If the via cctalk stays, I'll try looking for that. I had asked jay eons ago about a [cctalk] prepend on the subject and his and others opinions was that that was not desirable. However it always works on all lists I have for filtering. Maybe putting it in the from will be unobtrusive enough people will put up with it, and maybe Google's filtering won't suck with a rule hitting that field. thanks jim From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Mar 4 02:49:23 2017 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 03:49:23 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/60+RL01 Recovery (was: Re: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI) Message-ID: <0f4701d294c4$392591b0$ab70b510$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Cohoe via cctalk Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 10:45 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Maresca via cctalk Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 11:59 AM To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Is anyone confirmed to be picking this stuff up? I'll put my hand up on this. ..... The 11/60 processor was stored in better conditions and consists of two BA11 style boxes. ..... Regards, Dan ----- Can you share with us the complement of modules installed in the two BA11-P? I'm curious as to how "stock" the configuration was. Thanks, paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 4 06:37:00 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 07:37:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM S/32, PDP-11/60+RL01, PDP-11/34, East Lansing MI Message-ID: <20170304123700.E8E5718C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dan Cohoe dancohoe at oxford.net > I'll put my hand up on this. It sounds like you got everything that was left? Enjoy the -11/60, they are pretty rare! Noel From lproven at gmail.com Sat Mar 4 08:23:36 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 15:23:36 +0100 Subject: Binary keypad front panel In-Reply-To: <20170303195823.GA13644@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20170303195823.GA13644@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On 3 March 2017 at 20:58, John Wilson via cctalk wrote: > I'd give Gerbers to anyone who cares > but really it's just a dumb joke. Fun one though. Heh. Cool. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Mar 4 10:40:14 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 08:40:14 -0800 Subject: I the new mail system In-Reply-To: <85989738-0677-ab3c-febc-c9b7958d32ce@jwsss.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <85989738-0677-ab3c-febc-c9b7958d32ce@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <644B8013-A86D-4DB7-8078-211A4444F5E8@gmail.com> For what it's worth, I'm OK with it too. It correctly shows that this is a message relayed by a list sent from a person. I can easily choose whether I want to respond to the list or to the person or both, I had to make that choice before anyhow. If bounces are fixed that's great. Marc > On Mar 4, 2017, at 12:40 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On 3/3/2017 11:38 PM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2017, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Thanks to both of you. I came back to cctalk after not checking it for a few days, and wondered what the %$#^ was going on, with every message showing with cctalk as the "from" field. >> >> I'm another one who dislikes the new system. It would be much better if the Reply-To field did *not* contain the sender's email address because when I reply to a message, I use the Reply-To field (of course) and have to delete the extra line because I want to reply to the list and *not* privately to the sender. So either the sender's address should be in the >>> From field or in a new header field, e.g. List-Original-Sender or >> something like that. >> For now I have set up a procmail rule to strip the "via cctalk" from the >>> From field because this is ugly and redundant. >> >> Christian > Thunderbird is putting in the list with the person in the Reply-To being an additional recipient in the To: > > I have not bothered stripping that extra. > > The via ctalk is useful as a target for filtering the traffic. For some reason there is leakage of detected emails on google. It is perhaps due to prior mentioned non conforming emails of some sort, don't know, their filtering sucks. > > But it may be that that will allow me to catch more if not all of the cctalk traffic in gmail. > > I'm subscribed three times for archival purposes. I read via an email subscription that ends up in a Thunderbird file via pop3 from that server. Never misses with the email rule. > > I wanted an outside the building forget it archive I could peruse, so created a subscription into my gmail account. That one is leaking about 1 to 5 messages a week using the same rule as Thunderbird, which is based on email to / from etc. > > And a third subscription goes to an account on a server which pulls everything via fetchmail. That subscription has nothing but Cctalk on it. i have it as my main archive if all else fails. (and Thunderbird is getting flaky, and has failed). > > If the via cctalk stays, I'll try looking for that. I had asked jay eons ago about a [cctalk] prepend on the subject and his and others opinions was that that was not desirable. However it always works on all lists I have for filtering. Maybe putting it in the from will be unobtrusive enough people will put up with it, and maybe Google's filtering won't suck with a rule hitting that field. > > thanks > jim From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 4 11:34:43 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 17:34:43 +0000 Subject: Model II Technical Reference Manual Message-ID: I have a Tandy Model II Technical Reference Manual available for sale. It is in one of those clunky brown Tandy binders so it will not fit in a Priority Mail Envelope so will need to go in a box. I figure $30 will cover it all nicely. Anybody interested? bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 4 11:37:31 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 17:37:31 +0000 Subject: Model 16 board set Message-ID: I have a set of boards from an original Tandy Model 16 (long before the 6000) Worked when removed from a system with a dead CRT but has been sitting around for more than 10 years and I have no way to test them. Make an offer and let's see if we can keep them out of the landfill. Plan on probably $10 for Priority Mail. bill From t.gardner at computer.org Sat Mar 4 12:37:37 2017 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 10:37:37 -0800 Subject: Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III - IDE drives? In-Reply-To: <2c433944-782b-8bec-b208-4fec9d0a5853@gmail.com> References: <2c433944-782b-8bec-b208-4fec9d0a5853@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006201d29516$6643e370$32cbaa50$@computer.org> I'm pretty sure the Portable III used a Conner IDE disk drive, see http://chmss.wikifoundry.com/page/Compaq%2FConner+CP341+IDE%2FATA+Drive probably the CP344 but maybe the CP341 (there is some inconsistency in the literature) However that was the first public IDE drive so it is not at all clear how compatible the Compaq HBA/driver was with future versions of IDE/ATA, so if I were you I would get early Conner IDE drives as replacements such as models CP3024, CP3044, CP344, CP3104, CP3114 and CP3204 - all listed in the 1989 Disk/Trend as Conner PC-AT drives (i.e. IDE drives). Tom -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson [mailto:jules.richardson99 at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 12:52 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III - IDE drives? Just checking here, as someone told me that this is the case, but do the Compaq Portable 286 and Portable III take stock 40-pin IDE hard drives? I just wanted to make sure that they weren't expecting something that might be a bit non-standard before I go trying to find modern replacements for a pair of failing disks. Assuming that an enormous modern(ish) drive is OK, are there any other gotchas involved in configuration and formatting? Obviously I don't need a partition bigger than a few tens of MB, but perhaps there are things to keep in mind when fitting a drive that's most likely to be getting on for a thousand times the capacity of the original. cheers Jules From cube1 at charter.net Sat Mar 4 14:03:12 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:03:12 -0600 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <20170303163121.GE24559@lonesome.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <20170303163121.GE24559@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <76035719-9cb9-85d3-fcb9-1b94e937fa32@charter.net> ROTFL. On 3/3/2017 10:31 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Mar 02, 2017 at 08:11:34AM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> It hardly took any time at all to get those to the point where it would >> accept, "LET THERE BE LIGHT" > > "I'll ... have to think about it." > > mcl > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Mar 4 14:06:10 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:06:10 -0600 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8b62eb2f-c5f5-9a8a-9165-d8131b092192@charter.net> On 3/1/2017 2:29 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > I have been in rooms where they had a box of earplugs at the door, but > that came later in my field service rep days we where told that the > noise was at a "safe" level, however I do know of at least one person > that is still in field service that now has hearing aids that are paid > for by the company. I suffer from tinnitus, likely due to too much time in computer rooms with an IBM 1410, PDP-11s, Datacraft 6024, IBM 7094 II, IBM 360/65 MP, Amdahl 470, IBM 3084 and IBM 3090 machines and peripherals in their respective days. And then there is the time I currently spend on my collection. No hearing aid yet, but I can certainly tell that my hearing is not what it used to be, or even what it should be. From earl at retrobits.com Sat Mar 4 10:42:58 2017 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 08:42:58 -0800 Subject: Digital "we C.A.R.E." Message-ID: Hi all. I'm hoping you can help me solve a minor mystery. I have a magnet with the DIGITAL logo, and underneath the logo, it says "we C.A.R.E.". I have no idea what that means, and Google searches have not helped. I'm assuming it's some sort of service or technical assistance program? Anyone heard of it? Thanks! - Earl From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Mar 4 15:13:03 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 13:13:03 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> > On Mar 1, 2017, at 11:39 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > There are certain experiences that I would not rather relive for the > sake of nostalgia. Computer room noise would be right up there with > kidney stones and root canals. Having experienced both 1980s computer rooms and passing kidney stones, I would like to offer my opinion that visiting a noisy computer room is something quite fun to do at least once, while one could skip the experience of passing kidney stones entirely without any regrets. In my experience, visiting a computer room was enjoyable, while hanging out there for a full shift got rather tedious. The computer room I worked in at UCI had an enclosed, glassed-in office for the computer operator that provided a nice retreat from the noise between tape swaps and printer handling tasks. I also fondly remember that warm spot behind the Convex C240 power supply cabinet exhausts, which was the warmest spot in the room when the main Computer Science building AC kicked in at 6AM and the computer room temperature plummeted for a while. For some reason, I fondly remember the scream of a DEC TU77 drive, and would like to have one in my collection. Clearly, I must be somewhat touched in the head. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 4 15:21:37 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 13:21:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> from "Mark J. Blair via cctalk" at "Mar 4, 17 01:13:03 pm" Message-ID: <201703042121.v24LLbgU7864340@floodgap.com> > In my experience, visiting a computer room was enjoyable, while hanging out > there for a full shift got rather tedious. It got awful cold in there working on servers for several hours. People would ask why I was in a thick jacket when it was 75 F outside. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. -- Tacitus --------- From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 4 15:22:03 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 15:22:03 -0600 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <58BB2FFB.9000008@pico-systems.com> On 03/04/2017 03:13 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > For some reason, I fondly remember the scream of a DEC > TU77 drive, and would like to have one in my collection. > Clearly, I must be somewhat touched in the head. :) Scream? Or buzz? We had a TU77, and when we ran backups, it made a loud buzzing as it was doing start/stop about as fast as it could go. Or, are you referring to the whine as it went into rewind? The 200 IPS Hitachi drives on our 360 were much louder in the rewind, you could hear it anywhere in the machine room. Jon From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Mar 4 15:27:03 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 13:27:03 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <58BB2FFB.9000008@pico-systems.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <58BB2FFB.9000008@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 4, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 03/04/2017 03:13 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> For some reason, I fondly remember the scream of a DEC TU77 drive, and would like to have one in my collection. Clearly, I must be somewhat touched in the head. :) > Scream? Or buzz? We had a TU77, and when we ran backups, it made a loud buzzing as it was doing start/stop about as fast as it could go. Or, are you referring to the whine as it went into rewind? I mostly remember the shop-vacuum-like whine of the vacuum pump, and the fluttery thwack of the tape loops forming on load-up. The other tape motion sounds didn't stick in my memory so much. I do remember the buzzy grind of the capstan motors on the C240's tape drive; I don't recall whether that drive's OEM was Fujitsu or Hitachi, but I found it quite enjoying to watch as an engineering student. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 4 15:34:25 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 13:34:25 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <25d8b7a8-e5b4-0354-c103-4efc6dd39a0c@sydex.com> On 03/04/2017 01:13 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > Having experienced both 1980s computer rooms and passing kidney > stones, I would like to offer my opinion that visiting a noisy > computer room is something quite fun to do at least once, while one > could skip the experience of passing kidney stones entirely without > any regrets. The computer floor at CDC SVLOPS had perhaps 15-20'high ceilings with terrible fluorescent lighting. Apparently, it was originally intended as a manufacturing floor. At any given time, there were several system, oceans of disk and tape drives around, along with the usual printers, readers and punches. Talking to someone meant getting up within several inches of someone and raising the voice to be heard. All hard surfaces--nothing sound-absorbent in the least. Having spent a lot of time in a steel mill, I'd say that the noise level was comparable. And, between the over-enthusiastic air conditioning and background noise, one's nerves were pretty frayed at the end of a shift. > In my experience, visiting a computer room was enjoyable, while > hanging out there for a full shift got rather tedious. The computer > room I worked in at UCI had an enclosed, glassed-in office for the > computer operator that provided a nice retreat from the noise between > tape swaps and printer handling tasks. I also fondly remember that > warm spot behind the Convex C240 power supply cabinet exhausts, which > was the warmest spot in the room when the main Computer Science > building AC kicked in at 6AM and the computer room temperature. During the OPEC oil embargo in the 1970s, this then-California resident was sent to the Twin Cities in January for some work at the Arden Hills plant. Even the Ramada Inn kept room temperatures down. In the offices, there was ice on the *inside* of windows. I discovered that if I took a pillow and a good book to the ADL building, the most cozy place in all of Minneapolis most likely was in the STAR-100 room, nestled between the SBUs. My hearing is okay, but I do have a problem with tinnitus and loud sounds severely distorting. However, I can still hear the birds singing, so life is good. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 4 15:39:30 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 13:39:30 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <58BB2FFB.9000008@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0ef13fb0-90ad-5443-2794-d3bf7988b07e@sydex.com> On 03/04/2017 01:27 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > > I mostly remember the shop-vacuum-like whine of the vacuum pump, and > the fluttery thwack of the tape loops forming on load-up. The other > tape motion sounds didn't stick in my memory so much. I do remember > the buzzy grind of the capstan motors on the C240's tape drive; I > don't recall whether that drive's OEM was Fujitsu or Hitachi, but I > found it quite enjoying to watch as an engineering student. You could tell from across a noisy computer room when one of the guys was running the tape I/O section of the Navy COBOL audit tests. The short-record section made a 607 or 657 tape drive sing quite loudly. I believe that attribute was used for the CDC rendition of "Anchors Aweigh"... --Chuck From wkt at tuhs.org Sat Mar 4 16:35:02 2017 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 08:35:02 +1000 Subject: Help needed for Unix anniversary in 2019 Message-ID: <20170304223502.GA27889@minnie.tuhs.org> Hi all, some of you may know me as the guy who runs the Unix Heritage Society and the archive of old Unix systems: https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tuhs, http://www.tuhs.org and http://www.tuhs.org/Archive Mid-year 2019 is the 50th anniversary of the creation of Unix and I've been quietly agitating for something to be done to celebrate this. Up to now, there's been little response. The original Unix user's group, Usenix, will hold its Annual Technical Conference on the west coast of the US at this time, so it would make sense to do something in conjunction with this conference. Some suggestions: - a terminal room with a bunch of period terminals: ASR-33s, -37s, VT100s, VT102s, VT220s - these connected to emulated Unix systems either locally or via a terminal server and telnet to remotely emulated systems - some graphical terminals: Sun pizza boxes, a Blit would be great - if possible, some actual real PDP-11s, VAXen - emulated systems: V1 to V7 Unix, 32V, the BSDs etc. In fact there are plenty of Unix versions that we could run in emulated mode. - Unix of course was one of the systems used to implement the Arpanet protcols, so it would be interesting to get some of the real/emulated systems networked together - how about an emulated UUCP network with Usenet on top of it, and some mail/news clients on the emulated systems. - retro workshops/tutorials: how to edit with ed, using nroff, posting a Usenet article, dealing with bang paths. I'm proposing to gather a bunch of people to start the ball rolling on the technical/demonstration side. We'd need people: - with terminals, portable PDP-11s and VAXen, Sun boxen - prepared to set up emulated systems - who can help bring the networking (UUCP, Usenet, Arpanet) back to life - willing to write and run workshops that show off this old technology - to help set up terminal servers and all the RS-232 to telnet stuff Some of this we can start doing now, e.g. rebuild an emulated Arpanet, UUCP, Usenet, get emulated systems up, build front-end telnet interfaces. Is there anybody willing to sign up for this? I think once we have some momentum, we can tell the Usenix people and get some buy-in from them. Post back and/or e-mail me if you can help. Thanks, Warren From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Mar 4 17:11:20 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 15:11:20 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/34 rails? Message-ID: <7deeb830-7243-d04e-2ee2-b28a463e463f@gmail.com> Hi all -- I'm looking to rack up my PDP-11/34 so I can get it off my bench. I'd like to track down something similar to (if not exactly) the original rackmount rails (the ones that allow the chassis to pivot 90 degrees so you can deal with the backplane easily), but I'm not sure what the original part number or manufacturer was. Anyone have this information handy? Better yet, anyone have a spare set of rails handy? Thanks as always, Josh From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 4 19:09:04 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 19:09:04 -0600 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <58BB2FFB.9000008@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <58BB6530.7030508@pico-systems.com> On 03/04/2017 03:27 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> > I mostly remember the shop-vacuum-like whine of the vacuum pump, and the fluttery thwack of the tape loops forming on load-up. The other tape motion sounds didn't stick in my memory so much. I do remember the buzzy grind of the capstan motors on the C240's tape drive; I don't recall whether that drive's OEM was Fujitsu or Hitachi, but I found it quite enjoying to watch as an engineering student. Hmmm, on our TU77, the vacuum pump was not that audible, but then it was in a room with a LOT of noise. Liebert air conditioner, 11/780, RM05, RP07 and then the TU77. When the drive was not running flat out, the bup-bup from the tape columns was not real loud, but when you were pushing data fast, like BACKUP with /buffers=5, it made a pretty steady BRRRRRR noise. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 4 21:34:40 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 22:34:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/34 rails? Message-ID: <20170305033440.7D74B18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > I'm looking to rack up my PDP-11/34 so I can get it off my bench. I'd > like to track down something similar to (if not exactly) the original > rackmount rails (the ones that allow the chassis to pivot 90 degrees I'm not the sure BA11-K (10-1/2" box) mounted 11/34's could do the rotate thing; the last 10-1/2" one that could was, IIRC, the 11/05. (I don't think any of the 5-1/4" boxes could rotate.) The BA11-K had that incredibly heavy H765 power supply, maybe it was too heavy to safely rotate? > I'm not sure what the original part number or manufacturer was. Anyone > have this information handy? Anyway, I've seen BA11-K boxes with several different kind of mounting slides. The tall, grey-coated ones are made by Chassis Trak, a division of General Devices of Indianapolis. The 4 I looked at, all idential looking (except for handedness), all had different numbers on the CT sticker, so I don't know what the model number is! This one says '060RH'. I've also seen BA11-K's with narrower (height-wise) slides, in some sort of bright metal finish. I don't know who made those. GD is still in business; I looked on their web site and found similar slides. I didn't order any because they were kind fairly pricy. BTW, does anyone know that they grey coating is? Is it some sort of phosphate plating, or perhaps some sort of early powder coat, or what? Mine are rusty, and I'd like to blast them and get them re-coated, but I can't figure out what that coating is. Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Mar 4 22:35:34 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 20:35:34 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <58BB6530.7030508@pico-systems.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <58BB2FFB.9000008@pico-systems.com> <58BB6530.7030508@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4C7C4DCD-6B61-4C14-A092-E4C20259CE8D@nf6x.net> > On Mar 4, 2017, at 17:09, Jon Elson wrote: > > Hmmm, on our TU77, the vacuum pump was not that audible, but then it was in a room with a LOT of noise. My memory might be faulty, since it has been about 25 years since I've heard a TU77. I don't suppose anybody near southern California has an extra one I might adopt? :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 4 23:41:34 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 23:41:34 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/34 rails? In-Reply-To: <20170305033440.7D74B18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170305033440.7D74B18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <58BBA50E.9000907@pico-systems.com> On 03/04/2017 09:34 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > BTW, does anyone know that they grey coating is? Is it some sort of phosphate > plating, or perhaps some sort of early powder coat, or what? Mine are rusty, > and I'd like to blast them and get them re-coated, but I can't figure out > what that coating is. > > It's some kind of nitride, but I have no idea how it is applied. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 4 23:42:42 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 23:42:42 -0600 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <4C7C4DCD-6B61-4C14-A092-E4C20259CE8D@nf6x.net> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <58BB2FFB.9000008@pico-systems.com> <58BB6530.7030508@pico-systems.com> <4C7C4DCD-6B61-4C14-A092-E4C20259CE8D@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <58BBA552.5040307@pico-systems.com> On 03/04/2017 10:35 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> On Mar 4, 2017, at 17:09, Jon Elson wrote: >> >> Hmmm, on our TU77, the vacuum pump was not that audible, but then it was in a room with a LOT of noise. > My memory might be faulty, since it has been about 25 years since I've heard a TU77. I don't suppose anybody near southern California has an extra one I might adopt? :) > > Oh, get a TU78, for sure! I wish we had gotten the TU78, instead of TU77. It would have made backups a lot more pleasant. Jon From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Mar 4 23:46:10 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 05:46:10 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/34 rails? In-Reply-To: <20170305033440.7D74B18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170305033440.7D74B18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 05/03/2017 03:34, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch > > > I'm looking to rack up my PDP-11/34 so I can get it off my bench. I'd > > like to track down something similar to (if not exactly) the original > > rackmount rails (the ones that allow the chassis to pivot 90 degrees > > I'm not the sure BA11-K (10-1/2" box) mounted 11/34's could do the rotate > thing; the last 10-1/2" one that could was, IIRC, the 11/05. The two I've had - both 11/34A versions, if it makes a difference - both rotated. I no longer have most of the 11/34 docs, but according to the Field Maintenance Print Set (MP00082 11/34A) on Bitsavers, the BA11-KE and BA11-KF had the "SLIDE, 3 POS TILT" described in drawing D-PS-1211825-0-0. Alas, that's not in the print set. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at petelancashire.com Sat Mar 4 19:53:54 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 17:53:54 -0800 Subject: 2nd batch of QIC tapes Message-ID: https://goo.gl/photos/UXzDPo8WGVFNr1mA6 10 cartridges this time, all for SUN -pete From pete at petelancashire.com Sat Mar 4 21:43:46 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 19:43:46 -0800 Subject: 2 more tapes Tek 4300 Message-ID: https://goo.gl/photos/vogHGNSzsQrEeapA7 From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Mar 5 01:33:00 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 23:33:00 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <58BBA552.5040307@pico-systems.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <58BB2FFB.9000008@pico-systems.com> <58BB6530.7030508@pico-systems.com> <4C7C4DCD-6B61-4C14-A092-E4C20259CE8D@nf6x.net> <58BBA552.5040307@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57631CF8-7927-4D37-9BC2-4F8F885ABF60@nf6x.net> > On Mar 4, 2017, at 21:42, Jon Elson wrote: > > Oh, get a TU78, for sure! I would settle for either! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Mar 5 02:02:30 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 02:02:30 -0600 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <25d8b7a8-e5b4-0354-c103-4efc6dd39a0c@sydex.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <25d8b7a8-e5b4-0354-c103-4efc6dd39a0c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20170305080230.GA32411@lonesome.com> On Sat, Mar 04, 2017 at 01:34:25PM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > terrible fluorescent lighting. There's another kind? :-) mcl From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Mar 5 02:06:56 2017 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (Steven Stengel) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 00:06:56 -0800 Subject: Cromemco on Craigslist in Vermont Message-ID: Cromemco on Craigslist on Vermont/ https://vermont.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=cromemco&sort=rel Victor 9000 in New Hampshire: https://nh.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=victor%209000&sort=rel Atari Mega ST in RI: https://providence.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=atari%20mega&sort=rel From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Mar 5 02:14:34 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 02:14:34 -0600 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <97ec8550-b48b-5044-deec-78054860aa95@verizon.net> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <97ec8550-b48b-5044-deec-78054860aa95@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20170305081434.GB32411@lonesome.com> On Thu, Mar 02, 2017 at 07:26:25AM -0500, allison via cctalk wrote: > I just fire up the PDP-11/73 (RL02, RX02, RD52x3,), then Microvax-II/GPX, > Then the PDP-8f.... Right now in the server room here at the house it's at 77dB -- well, right at the server rack; it's a bit lower where I sit. There's only 7U powered up right now, though, and the x3850 doesn't have its fans on due to the open windows and pleasant conditions outside. So, it could be worse -- and has been. For instance, I could turn on the G5 RackMac to measure it, but since I have those windows open it would only piss off the neigbhors :-) (ok, ok, once the OS takes over the fan control, that one drops to only "pretty annoying" from "banshee". Where did Apple get these damned fans from, anyway?) mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Mar 5 02:19:54 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 02:19:54 -0600 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170305081954.GC32411@lonesome.com> On Wed, Mar 01, 2017 at 05:22:10PM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove via cctalk wrote: > Don't forget what a machine room and the equipment looks like. I think everyone has forgotten the most important part of the recreation. There simply *must* be someone standing in the room to scream DON'T TOUCH THAT mcl From other at oryx.us Sun Mar 5 03:50:36 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 03:50:36 -0600 Subject: Still Looking For AT&T 3B2 Internals Docs In-Reply-To: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> References: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <2a8850d1-37fc-4580-2ecb-7e83b5eca83d@oryx.us> Hello Seth, Fingers crossed that you already have what you need. Given the possibility that you don't, my comment here is that your request for internal documents are somewhat vague. Can you be somewhat more specifics? The reason specifically I'm asking, is I was reviewing an old Unix book/document earlier, "Life with Unix" by Don Libes & Sandy Ressler. The document makes a lot of comments about both Berkeley/BSD and AT&T, and how AT&T was using Unix internally all over the place. It is of no direct value here, but the book is available to the public in pdf format here in case you are interested: During my time in the military, I spent most of the early 1990's in the Pacific theatre, and although at the time I was not wearing a Unix admin hat, I was reminded by the book that I observed AT&T 3b2 systems in Japan on base that were part of the telco system, and had no IT usage. And to be more specific, I'm wondering out loud here if possibly, the documentation you might need may not be directly accessible, but that information might be available in a round about way, possibly thru the telco side of things. If nothing else, food for thought. Wishing you luck, Jerry On 02/27/17 09:33 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hello everyone, > > It's been about a year since I last asked around, so I figure it's > time for me to put out another call for help. > > My AT&T 3B2 emulator sits unfinished due to lack of internals > documentation. If you or anyone you know might have access to > internals documents -- schematics, timing diagrams, etc. -- please let > me know. > > These docs are very hard to find, and may never have been released by > AT&T. Maybe you know a former AT&T engineer who managed to squirrel > some away? > > I have many resources already, so I'm NOT looking for user manuals, > SVR3 source code, or the IO Bus specification. These are pretty > easily available online, and they've given me their all. > > Many thanks in advance, > > -Seth > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun Mar 5 09:30:26 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:30:26 -0400 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <20170305081954.GC32411@lonesome.com> References: <20170305081954.GC32411@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <7f6c1ce1-a2ac-1a75-729f-05a2b1c9fcc4@gmail.com> On 2017-03-05 4:19 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Mar 01, 2017 at 05:22:10PM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove via cctalk wrote: >> Don't forget what a machine room and the equipment looks like. > I think everyone has forgotten the most important part of the recreation. > > There simply *must* be someone standing in the room to scream > > DON'T TOUCH THAT > > mcl That reminds me of a couple cases where a distracted operator operator told someone unfamiliar with the room, that to get out they press the button by the door, only to glance around and see the persons hand going for the room EPO, and scream "NOT THAT BUTTON!!!!" In one case iot was too late and the room went quiet. Paul. From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sun Mar 5 09:48:31 2017 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 10:48:31 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/34 rails? In-Reply-To: <20170305033440.7D74B18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170305033440.7D74B18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170305154831.GO3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Noel Chiappa via cctalk [170304 22:34]: [..SNIP..] > Anyway, I've seen BA11-K boxes with several different kind of mounting > slides. > > The tall, grey-coated ones are made by Chassis Trak, a division of General > Devices of Indianapolis. The 4 I looked at, all idential looking (except for > handedness), all had different numbers on the CT sticker, so I don't know what > the model number is! This one says '060RH'. [..Snip..] > BTW, does anyone know that they grey coating is? Is it some sort of phosphate > plating, or perhaps some sort of early powder coat, or what? Mine are rusty, > and I'd like to blast them and get them re-coated, but I can't figure out > what that coating is. > > Noel The gray phosphate/nitrate coating sounds like Parkerizing. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkerizing) Gun parts places have home kits for doing the same (such as Brownell's http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/parkerizing/benchtop-parkerizing-kit-prod22737.aspx) But there are other coatings that might be easier to use such as Cerakote (http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/paint-finishes/air-cure-non-aerosol-paints/cerakote-ovencure-ceramic-coatings-prod26563.aspx) or even easier might be Duracoat (http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/paint-finishes/air-cure-non-aerosol-paints/duracoat-paints-prod44374.aspx) I haven't seen the coating you're talking about so I could be way off base too... Todd From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 5 10:11:53 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:11:53 -0500 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <20170305080230.GA32411@lonesome.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <25d8b7a8-e5b4-0354-c103-4efc6dd39a0c@sydex.com> <20170305080230.GA32411@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 5, 2017, at 3:02 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 04, 2017 at 01:34:25PM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> terrible fluorescent lighting. > > There's another kind? Well, there are "daylight" type fluorescent bulbs. Those are quite good. We've had them around the house (my electronics workshop and our home office) for years now. The more modern replacement would be daylight (5500 K) LEDs, and in fact you can get LEDs that fit in fluorescent fixtures, either as is or (probably a better choice) with the ballast removed. Something to be considered in the future... paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Mar 5 11:05:56 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 12:05:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/34 rails? Message-ID: <20170305170556.C554518C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Turnbull >> I'm not the sure BA11-K (10-1/2" box) mounted 11/34's could do the >> rotate thing > The two I've had .. both rotated. Ah, right you are - brain fade, late at night. I went looking in my BA11-K collection, and found a couple that do have the rotate - the part that bolts to the box has a huge 3/4 circular plate, and a metal strip that runs to the front of the box with a huge (~3") handle bar at the front, which releases it to turn. I have this bit set that the outer slides (the parts that bolt to the 19" rack) are the same for the rotating inners, and the non-rotating ones (as used on, e.g., the RK05 and the BA11-F). > I've also seen BA11-K's with narrower (height-wise) slides, in some > sort of bright metal finish. I don't know who made those. I went and had a look at some, but there is no name, or number, anywhere on them. BTW, these also rotate. Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 5 11:22:14 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 17:22:14 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/34 rails? In-Reply-To: <20170305170556.C554518C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170305170556.C554518C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Sunday, March 5, 2017 12:05 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: PDP-11/34 rails? > From: Pete Turnbull >> I'm not the sure BA11-K (10-1/2" box) mounted 11/34's could do the >> rotate thing > The two I've had .. both rotated. Ah, right you are - brain fade, late at night. I went looking in my BA11-K collection, and found a couple that do have the rotate - the part that bolts to the box has a huge 3/4 circular plate, and a metal strip that runs to the front of the box with a huge (~3") handle bar at the front, which releases it to turn. I have this bit set that the outer slides (the parts that bolt to the 19" rack) are the same for the rotating inners, and the non-rotating ones (as used on, e.g., the RK05 and the BA11-F). > I've also seen BA11-K's with narrower (height-wise) slides, in some > sort of bright metal finish. I don't know who made those. I went and had a look at some, but there is no name, or number, anywhere on them. BTW, these also rotate. ________________________________________ It's sad and too late now but a few years ago when I was leaving the old house I couldn't give that stuff away. I had 4 complete sets of rails for BA-11's that went to the recycler because I couldn't find anyone to take them. Also a bunch of those funny rails for RL drives. bill From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 5 11:49:18 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 09:49:18 -0800 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <20170305080230.GA32411@lonesome.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <25d8b7a8-e5b4-0354-c103-4efc6dd39a0c@sydex.com> <20170305080230.GA32411@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 03/05/2017 12:02 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sat, Mar 04, 2017 at 01:34:25PM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> terrible fluorescent lighting. > > There's another kind? The fixtures themselves were so high that they *did* make for some recreation. Bored operators would engage in late-night "ring toss" with magtape write rings to see who could land the most on top of the fixtures. I'm sure that the maintenance people detested getting the big ladder out and clearing them off the fixtures, but they weren't around at 2AM to observe the evil deeds. I don't recall many who used those yellow rings for their intended purpose. It was just too easy to forget to remove one. You mounted tapes without and reached around the back of the reel with a punch card and tripped the "finger" that detected the ring. So the things accumulated in great piles. This probably changed (I don't recall) when the 66x auto-loaders came into the picture. --Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Mar 5 12:25:43 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2017 18:25:43 +0000 Subject: FW: More 8085a oddities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi folks, I didn't see the message at the bottom of this one arrive since I think I sent it JUST as the list software was being changed over. Gah, having just looked again I realise I've sent it from not the address I've subbed with. PEBCAK there :) Since then I discovered the -5V rail for the 4116s had dropped to -4.2V which was out of spec for both types of RAM on this box so on Chuck's suggestion I swapped the 560ohm resistor/zener combo that was powering this rail for a 79L05 regulator and the DRAMs now have all 3 voltages steady. No change in behaviour though. I'm baffled as to why the upper address bus doesn't blip once RESET goes high. HOLD is permanently pulled low so it's not that. Any suggestions? Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? ------ Forwarded Message From: Adrian Graham Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 23:34:50 +0000 To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Conversation: More 8085a oddities Subject: More 8085a oddities Hi folks, After a few days break I came back to my 8085a-powered phone system this weekend and it's decided to go on strike. By that I mean the processor locks up after only a few cycles so doesn't get as far as attempting to read anything, when it freezes the S0/S1/WR status lines are all high which shouldn't be possible since S0/S1 high should be 'Fetch' according to the manual, not WRITE. Vcc, RESET and clock are good and I can't see any other external signal which might hold the CPU. The PSU is good and putting out +5/+12/-12 as it should. CPU checks out in another 8085 system I forgot I had. Interestingly my analyser shows the upper half of the address bus doesn't change while the lower half manages a single transition, as does the ALE signal. From the CPU both halves of the address bus go directly to a 74LS373 each which both check out OK on a breadboard circuit I made up earlier. ROMs are all OK and the lines themselves back to the LS373 and CPU check out with little resistance. I'm stumped and can't help but think this is something stupid which I'm overlooking. Maybe more sleep will help. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? ------ End of Forwarded Message From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Mar 5 12:41:59 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 10:41:59 -0800 Subject: Magtape write rings [Was: Re: Full immersion emulation] In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <25d8b7a8-e5b4-0354-c103-4efc6dd39a0c@sydex.com> <20170305080230.GA32411@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 5, 2017, at 09:49, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I don't recall many who used those yellow rings for their intended > purpose. It was just too easy to forget to remove one. You mounted > tapes without and reached around the back of the reel with a punch card > and tripped the "finger" that detected the ring. So, was the write enable state latched at some point in the loading cycle on those drives? That surprises me, because I would have expected the write enable sensor to interrupt write current as combinatorial function on the drive, and/or pass sensor status up to the formatter a combinatorial signal. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 5 13:27:19 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:27:19 -0800 Subject: Magtape write rings [Was: Re: Full immersion emulation] In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <25d8b7a8-e5b4-0354-c103-4efc6dd39a0c@sydex.com> <20170305080230.GA32411@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 03/05/2017 10:41 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > > So, was the write enable state latched at some point in the loading > cycle on those drives? That surprises me, because I would have > expected the write enable sensor to interrupt write current as > combinatorial function on the drive, and/or pass sensor status up to > the formatter a combinatorial signal. Yup. You loaded the tape, then bumped the "finger". As I mentioned, this worked on 60x and 65x drives. Since the autoloaders closed the door as part of the cycle, this probably didn't work for 66x. This actually worked pretty well--you never ran the risk of leaving a ring in inadvertently. The consequence of forgetting to enable write was usually far less dire than mistakenly writing to a tape that was supposed to be read-only. --Chuck From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Mar 5 11:08:15 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 09:08:15 -0800 Subject: Still Looking For AT&T 3B2 Internals Docs In-Reply-To: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> References: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> Message-ID: One i've had luck with is posting on Craigslist and putting ads in local newspapers to where the manufacturing was done. Use to work better when people read newspapers, but even last year I got an e-mail back from an advertisement in a paper with an offer of just pay the media mail rate for a full bankers box of docs. -pete On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 7:33 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hello everyone, > > It's been about a year since I last asked around, so I figure it's > time for me to put out another call for help. > > My AT&T 3B2 emulator sits unfinished due to lack of internals > documentation. If you or anyone you know might have access to > internals documents -- schematics, timing diagrams, etc. -- please let > me know. > > These docs are very hard to find, and may never have been released by > AT&T. Maybe you know a former AT&T engineer who managed to squirrel > some away? > > I have many resources already, so I'm NOT looking for user manuals, > SVR3 source code, or the IO Bus specification. These are pretty > easily available online, and they've given me their all. > > Many thanks in advance, > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > web at loomcom.com > > From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Mar 5 11:22:58 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 09:22:58 -0800 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A625@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A625@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: Here is what comes to mind, it may not qualify as a computer. A Westinghouse Numa-Logic PC700. It is an early PLC. uses a Sinetics 8X300 bit slice. Unfortunately Westinghouse only started to invest in PLCs about the time the they merged with CBS and in a few years all of Westinghouse became history. BTW Looking for parts, manuals, software, the "lug-able" CRT based programmer, IDE PC interface etc. etc. Also will get my Allen Bradly PLC with core memory running someday. -pete On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > A selection of some of my more unusual computer-related stuff: > > - A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation using a National 32016 CPU and a > 4.2bsd port called UTek > > - A Digital Equipment PDP 8/e system with 2 RK05 drives, high speed paper > tape reader/punch, RX01 Dual 8" floppy drives, 16K of DEC core > memory(commonly runs with a 32K NVRAM board), 2 serial ports, EAE, RTC, > Memory Extension/Timeshare board, Diode boot board (RK05 boot) > > - Wang 300-series calculator field service parts kit (two wooden > briefcases) > > - Friden 6010 Computyper Diagnostic Console > > - Friden Electronics Training Course manuals (1960s) > > - Wyle Laboratories WS-02 punched card programmable electronic calculator > (1964) > > - Busicom 207 punched card programmable electronic calculator > > - Altair 8800 with Altair dual 8" disk drives > > - IMSAI 8080 kit built in high school as a school project in 1976/1977 > > - Televideo Personal Terminal > > - GE transistorised current loop acoustic coupler modem (110 baud) > > - Hewlett Packard 9100A and 9100B programmable electronic calculators > > - Tektronix mini-Board Bucket computer and many boards for it (EPROM > Blaster, TI TMS9918-Based Video Board w/RTC, SASI Interface, 6809 CPU, 6809 > ICE CPU. 32K Static and 64K Dynamic RAM Boards, 300-Baud Modem Board, 5 > 1/4" Floppy Controller > > - SWTPC TV Typewriter > > - A large format (4'x5') Summagraphics digitizing tablet with GPIB > interface > > - A Tektronix 4052 desktop computer (bit-slice implementation of Motorola > 6800 CPU) with very rare RAM Disk module installed under keyboard > > - Wang Laboratories dual-cassette drive for 700 series calculator > > - An old fluorescent-lighted, two sided sign advertising Denon electronic > calculators > > - Some original Digital Equipment System Modules (Used by DEC for making > some of their early computers) > > --- > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Mar 5 14:04:11 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 12:04:11 -0800 Subject: Magtape write rings [Was: Re: Full immersion emulation] In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <25d8b7a8-e5b4-0354-c103-4efc6dd39a0c@sydex.com> <20170305080230.GA32411@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <8927CB76-8C96-4306-9797-6E76610FD7F9@shaw.ca> On 2017-Mar-05, at 11:27 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 03/05/2017 10:41 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> >> So, was the write enable state latched at some point in the loading >> cycle on those drives? That surprises me, because I would have >> expected the write enable sensor to interrupt write current as >> combinatorial function on the drive, and/or pass sensor status up to >> the formatter a combinatorial signal. > > Yup. You loaded the tape, then bumped the "finger". As I mentioned, > this worked on 60x and 65x drives. Since the autoloaders closed the > door as part of the cycle, this probably didn't work for 66x. > > This actually worked pretty well--you never ran the risk of leaving a > ring in inadvertently. The consequence of forgetting to enable write > was usually far less dire than mistakenly writing to a tape that was > supposed to be read-only. In my limited experience of drives, but I expect it's typical, the write enable is electro-mechanically latched: if the write ring is present at load, a solenoid is activated which pulls the sense finger further in to hold the finger off the write ring, so it won't be a friction and wear point while running. The solenoid is released at unload. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 5 14:18:27 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2017 14:18:27 -0600 Subject: Magtape write rings [Was: Re: Full immersion emulation] In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <25d8b7a8-e5b4-0354-c103-4efc6dd39a0c@sydex.com> <20170305080230.GA32411@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <58BC7293.6010900@pico-systems.com> On 03/05/2017 12:41 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> On Mar 5, 2017, at 09:49, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> I don't recall many who used those yellow rings for their intended >> purpose. It was just too easy to forget to remove one. You mounted >> tapes without and reached around the back of the reel with a punch card >> and tripped the "finger" that detected the ring. > So, was the write enable state latched at some point in the loading cycle on those drives? That surprises me, because I would have expected the write enable sensor to interrupt write current as combinatorial function on the drive, and/or pass sensor status up to the formatter a combinatorial signal. > > On a number of drives, there was a pneumatic latch! When the vacuum motor started, there was a little air pump there that produced air bearing air (or in the REALLY bad old days, air pressure to blow the tape away from the vacuum capstans). That air pressed a finger against the write ring. if the write ring was present, the finger was blocked, and then retracted, and the write was enabled. if the finger was not blocked (no write ring present) then the finger extended and locked out as long as air pressure was present (until the vacuum motor shut off.) Some other drives had a ring that was forced back when the write ring was present. The ring had reflectors on it, and a photocell read the reflector during the tape load sequence to set the write enable FF. You couldn't just leave a probe against the write ring all the time as it would cause the write ring to work out of the groove and jam the reel hub. Mention above about the vacuum capstans. Some really old drives had two continuously counterrotating capstans with slots in them. Valves applied either air pressure, to make the tape float over the capstan, or vacuum, to make the capstan grab the tape. Jon From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 5 14:23:14 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 20:23:14 +0000 Subject: Still Looking For AT&T 3B2 Internals Docs In-Reply-To: References: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com>, Message-ID: Somewhere, probably in a box in the attic, I have a xerox of a preliminary document on the WE32000. I really liked that processor. bill ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Pete Lancashire via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Sunday, March 5, 2017 12:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Still Looking For AT&T 3B2 Internals Docs One i've had luck with is posting on Craigslist and putting ads in local newspapers to where the manufacturing was done. Use to work better when people read newspapers, but even last year I got an e-mail back from an advertisement in a paper with an offer of just pay the media mail rate for a full bankers box of docs. -pete On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 7:33 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hello everyone, > > It's been about a year since I last asked around, so I figure it's > time for me to put out another call for help. > > My AT&T 3B2 emulator sits unfinished due to lack of internals > documentation. If you or anyone you know might have access to > internals documents -- schematics, timing diagrams, etc. -- please let > me know. > > These docs are very hard to find, and may never have been released by > AT&T. Maybe you know a former AT&T engineer who managed to squirrel > some away? > > I have many resources already, so I'm NOT looking for user manuals, > SVR3 source code, or the IO Bus specification. These are pretty > easily available online, and they've given me their all. > > Many thanks in advance, > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > web at loomcom.com > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 5 14:28:33 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 20:28:33 +0000 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A625@mail.bensene.com>, Message-ID: I've gotten rid of a lot of wierd stuff in the past. BUt toiday, I still have some QBUS M68K boards. And I still have Terak boards (should qualify as rare I imagine) no Terak boxes but they work OK in any QBUS backplane. I'm sure if I thought about it there is more. bill ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Pete Lancashire via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Sunday, March 5, 2017 12:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? Here is what comes to mind, it may not qualify as a computer. A Westinghouse Numa-Logic PC700. It is an early PLC. uses a Sinetics 8X300 bit slice. Unfortunately Westinghouse only started to invest in PLCs about the time the they merged with CBS and in a few years all of Westinghouse became history. BTW Looking for parts, manuals, software, the "lug-able" CRT based programmer, IDE PC interface etc. etc. Also will get my Allen Bradly PLC with core memory running someday. -pete On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > A selection of some of my more unusual computer-related stuff: > > - A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation using a National 32016 CPU and a > 4.2bsd port called UTek > > - A Digital Equipment PDP 8/e system with 2 RK05 drives, high speed paper > tape reader/punch, RX01 Dual 8" floppy drives, 16K of DEC core > memory(commonly runs with a 32K NVRAM board), 2 serial ports, EAE, RTC, > Memory Extension/Timeshare board, Diode boot board (RK05 boot) > > - Wang 300-series calculator field service parts kit (two wooden > briefcases) > > - Friden 6010 Computyper Diagnostic Console > > - Friden Electronics Training Course manuals (1960s) > > - Wyle Laboratories WS-02 punched card programmable electronic calculator > (1964) > > - Busicom 207 punched card programmable electronic calculator > > - Altair 8800 with Altair dual 8" disk drives > > - IMSAI 8080 kit built in high school as a school project in 1976/1977 > > - Televideo Personal Terminal > > - GE transistorised current loop acoustic coupler modem (110 baud) > > - Hewlett Packard 9100A and 9100B programmable electronic calculators > > - Tektronix mini-Board Bucket computer and many boards for it (EPROM > Blaster, TI TMS9918-Based Video Board w/RTC, SASI Interface, 6809 CPU, 6809 > ICE CPU. 32K Static and 64K Dynamic RAM Boards, 300-Baud Modem Board, 5 > 1/4" Floppy Controller > > - SWTPC TV Typewriter > > - A large format (4'x5') Summagraphics digitizing tablet with GPIB > interface > > - A Tektronix 4052 desktop computer (bit-slice implementation of Motorola > 6800 CPU) with very rare RAM Disk module installed under keyboard > > - Wang Laboratories dual-cassette drive for 700 series calculator > > - An old fluorescent-lighted, two sided sign advertising Denon electronic > calculators > > - Some original Digital Equipment System Modules (Used by DEC for making > some of their early computers) > > --- > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Mar 5 14:33:16 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 12:33:16 -0800 Subject: Magtape write rings [Was: Re: Full immersion emulation] In-Reply-To: <58BC7293.6010900@pico-systems.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <25d8b7a8-e5b4-0354-c103-4efc6dd39a0c@sydex.com> <20170305080230.GA32411@lonesome.com> <58BC7293.6010900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: That all makes perfect sense now. Thanks! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 5 14:37:42 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 12:37:42 -0800 Subject: Magtape write rings [Was: Re: Full immersion emulation] In-Reply-To: <58BC7293.6010900@pico-systems.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <6B77035D-F61F-4304-B656-39F1264E1559@nf6x.net> <25d8b7a8-e5b4-0354-c103-4efc6dd39a0c@sydex.com> <20170305080230.GA32411@lonesome.com> <58BC7293.6010900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 03/05/2017 12:18 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > Mention above about the vacuum capstans. Some really old drives had > two continuously counterrotating capstans with slots in them. Valves > applied either air pressure, to make the tape float over the capstan, > or vacuum, to make the capstan grab the tape. Doesn't feel "really old" to me, at least. :) In the CDC drives, there was a voice-coil type valve for switching the vacuum around. I understood that the 65x units had a "cost reduced" version of the valve, from the 60x units. All in all, I much preferred the big orange 60x drives to the gray metal and blue glass of the 65x one--the 60x drives just felt more sturdy. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Mar 5 14:56:53 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 15:56:53 -0500 Subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A625@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've gotten rid of a lot of wierd stuff in the past. > > BUt toiday, I still have some QBUS M68K boards. And I still have Terak > boards (should > qualify as rare I imagine) no Terak boxes but they work OK in any QBUS > backplane. > > I'm sure if I thought about it there is more. > > bill > I have an original copy of the New York Weekly Messenger 2-13-1833 newspaper announcing Charles Babbage's "Calculating Machine". Here is a link to download the PDF: http://vintagecomputer.net/babbage.cfm Bill From pdaguytom at gmail.com Sun Mar 5 15:06:44 2017 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 15:06:44 -0600 Subject: WTB HP 98036A serial I/O card Message-ID: I recently acquired a HP 9825 and have a project planned that will need serial i/o. If anyone has one of these interfaces they'd care to sell, I would be interested in visiting about it. Thanks, Tom From steven at malikoff.com Sun Mar 5 18:49:25 2017 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:49:25 +1000 Subject: PDP-11/34 rails? In-Reply-To: <20170305154831.GO3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20170305033440.7D74B18C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170305154831.GO3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <69ebbec0eb523edbe8d27a1e62eeb101.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: PDP-11/34 rails? From: "Todd Goodman via cctalk" Date: Mon, March 6, 2017 1:48 am To: "Noel Chiappa" "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > * Noel Chiappa via cctalk [170304 22:34]: > [..SNIP..] >> Anyway, I've seen BA11-K boxes with several different kind of mounting >> slides. >> >> The tall, grey-coated ones are made by Chassis Trak, a division of General >> Devices of Indianapolis. The 4 I looked at, all idential looking (except for >> handedness), all had different numbers on the CT sticker, so I don't know what >> the model number is! This one says '060RH'. > [..Snip..] >> BTW, does anyone know that they grey coating is? Is it some sort of phosphate >> plating, or perhaps some sort of early powder coat, or what? Mine are rusty, >> and I'd like to blast them and get them re-coated, but I can't figure out >> what that coating is. >> >> Noel > > The gray phosphate/nitrate coating sounds like Parkerizing. > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkerizing) > > Gun parts places have home kits for doing the same (such as Brownell's > http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/parkerizing/benchtop-parkerizing-kit-prod22737.aspx) > > But there are other coatings that might be easier to use such as > Cerakote > (http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/paint-finishes/air-cure-non-aerosol-paints/cerakote-ovencure-ceramic-coatings-prod26563.aspx) > or even easier might be Duracoat > (http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/paint-finishes/air-cure-non-aerosol-paints/duracoat-paints-prod44374.aspx) > > I haven't seen the coating you're talking about so I could be way off > base too... > > Todd > Looking at the one pair of Chassis-Trak rails I acquired by chance, and am modifying for the 11/15, the phosphate grey surface does indeed look like Parkerizing to me. Although I have yet to find a script 'F' stamped on them (Todd would know :-) Steve. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 5 19:49:25 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 01:49:25 +0000 Subject: Model 16 Keyboards Message-ID: I have a pair of Model 16 Keyboards for sale. If interested make an offer. Allow at least $10 additional for Priority Mail with the USPS. bill From cube1 at charter.net Sun Mar 5 15:17:45 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 15:17:45 -0600 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <80c4bb40-4a2e-079c-c516-efa9e023bc7f@charter.net> > > Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to get a group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... > I need some. I have been working on my system, and just discovered that all four of my drives have leaking motor run capacitors. I have found some online, but they are a bit too tall (probably workable), and specified as 1/4" too large a diameter. Four drives x 4 caps each == 16. JRJ From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Mar 5 20:29:09 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 18:29:09 -0800 Subject: Another batch of tapes, 9845C, Tek 4051, VAX, Tek Misc Message-ID: https://goo.gl/photos/nTH55jvTqC9Mc2Uq8 Many of the DC300 size carts have broken bands. and a Tek 4041 PROM tray. -pete From ams at gnu.org Mon Mar 6 00:53:10 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 01:53:10 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: (cctalk@classiccmp.org) References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> Message-ID: And for what it is worth, continued bounces. From: cctalk-request at classiccmp.org To: ams at gnu.org Subject: confirm xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2017 14:28:13 -0600 Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated 05-Mar-2017. You will not get any more messages from this list until you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Mar 6 01:01:15 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 08:01:15 +0100 Subject: I the new mail system In-Reply-To: <644B8013-A86D-4DB7-8078-211A4444F5E8@gmail.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <85989738-0677-ab3c-febc-c9b7958d32ce@jwsss.com> <644B8013-A86D-4DB7-8078-211A4444F5E8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4 March 2017 at 17:40, CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote: > For what it's worth, I'm OK with it too. It correctly shows that this is a message relayed by a list sent from a person. I can easily choose whether I want to respond to the list or to the person or both, I had to make that choice before anyhow. If bounces are fixed that's great. It's a good fix, in my opinion. Nothing has changed for the worse with respect to replying, and it solved the bounce problem. All's good. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 6 01:56:50 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 23:56:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals Message-ID: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> I picked these up as part of an estate liquidation, but I don't have a Unibus setup to run them off, and they are large and taking up space. They now need to be gone. The condition is unknown but they are intact. If you know what one is, you probably know how to hook it up and use it. If you don't, they are NOT VAXen -- they're more like overgrown graphics terminals that connect over Unibus. They are not like other VAXstations. Take as many as you like (greater Los Angeles area). However, units that are not spoken for, or haven't made other arrangements regarding, will go to the recycler this weekend. E-mail me offlist if you are interested. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- rm -rf /bin/laden ---------------------------------------------------------- From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Mar 6 03:04:55 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:04:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Mar 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > The whole "foo via cctalk" is *really* annoying... What is wrong with > a half default mailman setup? There is no Reply-To header there, From > is set to the person actually sending the message (as it should be). Yes, that is most annoying. My complaint (and I guess many more from other users will follow) is, that if you reply to a message on the list, the author of that message gets a private mail, too, as he is listed in the Reply-To:-field. This is *wrong* and must be corrected (i.e. removed)! (BTW this reply to Alfed's mail is to one sent to me privately because of that error). > And all the bounce addresses are set to > cctalk-bounces+foo=bar at classiccmp.org where foo=bar is the user > sending the message. No, the Envelope-From: only has "cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org", there's no "+foo=bar" in it. And yes, the change in the address fields don't cure the bounce problem because the envelope from field is unchanged (and *that* field is used for bounces, not the header fields *within* the mail). Christian From ams at gnu.org Mon Mar 6 03:42:35 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 04:42:35 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: (message from Christian Corti via cctalk on Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:04:55 +0100 (CET)) References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The whole "foo via cctalk" is *really* annoying... What is wrong with > a half default mailman setup? There is no Reply-To header there, From > is set to the person actually sending the message (as it should be). Yes, that is most annoying. My complaint (and I guess many more from other users will follow) is, that if you reply to a message on the list, the author of that message gets a private mail, too, as he is listed in the Reply-To:-field. This is *wrong* and must be corrected (i.e. removed)! (BTW this reply to Alfed's mail is to one sent to me privately because of that error). Indeed, the Reply-To header should be nuked. > And all the bounce addresses are set to > cctalk-bounces+foo=bar at classiccmp.org where foo=bar is the user > sending the message. No, the Envelope-From: only has "cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org", there's no "+foo=bar" in it. And yes, the change in the address fields don't cure the bounce problem because the envelope from field is unchanged (and *that* field is used for bounces, not the header fields *within* the mail). I meant that it should have the +foo=bar thing in it, the example I was showing was how it _should_ look like, not what it currently looks like. Was a bit unclear there I suppose. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Mar 6 04:01:04 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:01:04 -0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004401d29660$92812650$b78372f0$@outlook.com> That seems to be peculiar to GNU. I haven't had any on GMAIL Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alfred M. > Szmidt via cctalk > Sent: 06 March 2017 06:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: I hate the new mail system > > And for what it is worth, continued bounces. > > From: cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > To: ams at gnu.org > Subject: confirm xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2017 14:28:13 -0600 > > Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to > excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated > 05-Mar-2017. You will not get any more messages from this list until > you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more reminders > like > this before your membership in the list is deleted. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Mar 6 04:16:29 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 10:16:29 +0000 (WET) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 06 Mar 2017 01:53:10 -0500" References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01QBNEY79PG6001ZQ7@beyondthepale.ie> "Alfred M. Szmidt" wrote: > > And for what it is worth, continued bounces. > Alfred, Two of the four ipv4 nameservers for gnu.org are broken. By those odds, I would expect anything up to 50% of any mail you receive via ipv4 to bounce. I gave you some hints in this direction the last time you mentioned you were getting bounces but maybe you didn't see my posting due to your problem with your nameservers? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ams at gnu.org Mon Mar 6 06:10:06 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 07:10:06 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <004401d29660$92812650$b78372f0$@outlook.com> (dave.g4ugm@gmail.com) References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <004401d29660$92812650$b78372f0$@outlook.com> Message-ID: That seems to be peculiar to GNU. I haven't had any on GMAIL Read the archive, it isn't peculiar to the gnu.org. From ams at gnu.org Mon Mar 6 06:10:05 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 07:10:05 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <01QBNEY79PG6001ZQ7@beyondthepale.ie> (message from Peter Coghlan on Mon, 06 Mar 2017 10:16:29 +0000 (WET)) References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <01QBNEY79PG6001ZQ7@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Two of the four ipv4 nameservers for gnu.org are broken. By those odds, I would expect anything up to 50% of any mail you receive via ipv4 to bounce. Which has nothing to do with anything. I gave you some hints in this direction the last time you mentioned you were getting bounces but maybe you didn't see my posting due to your problem with your nameservers? Uhm, it has nothing to do with "nameservers". Just the fact that this is the _only_ list in the whole world that sends bounces like this should tell you something. Just the fact that multiple people have complained about bounces should tell you something. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 6 06:31:32 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 07:31:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: I hate the new mail system Message-ID: <20170306123132.6EE0B18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Christian Corti > My complaint ... is, that if you reply to a message on the list, the > author of that message gets a private mail, too, as he is listed in the > Reply-To:-field. This is *wrong* and must be corrected (i.e. removed)! Good grief. Just about every email from every mailing list I'm on which I reply to, I have to manually remove additional addresses from the reply. It takes about one second. Just deal with it. Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Mar 6 07:30:14 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 08:30:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > My complaint (and I guess many more from other users will follow) is, > that if you reply to a message on the list, the author of that > message gets a private mail, too, as he is listed in the > Reply-To:-field. Only if you don't bother editing it down to whichever address you want to reply to (as I did for this message). If your user agent doesn't let you do that, well, your choice of a crippled user agent (and an inability to edit the list of recipients is a pretty serious failing for a user agent) is not reason to mangle the list even further for everyone else. > This is *wrong* and must be corrected (i.e. removed)! I disagree. For one thing, that is one of only two places the actual sender's address appears anywhere in the headers, based on the mail I'm replying to (and the other one is in a Received: comment, even less available to user agents and not present unless the sending mailsystem happens to add it). Mind you, I'd prefer the former state. But I'm not about to criticize Jay's handling of the lists when I'm in only peripheral touch with the relevant issues; even the issue of the bounces I have only the smallest experience with. I haven't personally seen a subscription suspension since I made my mailer accept-and-drop list mail it would normally reject, which makes me think that the suspensions people are seeing are probably due to the receiving mailserver rejecting the mail and should be dealt with by the subscriber in question talking with the mailserver admin in question and getting that sorted out. > No, the Envelope-From: [...] The envelope-from is not a header and in general does not have a name with a colon after it. (Your user agent, or possibly your mail store, may be (mis)presenting it that way, but that's not how it's carried on the wire and it is not handled that way in general.) > And yes, the change in the address fields don't cure the bounce > problem because the envelope from field is unchanged (and *that* > field is used for bounces, not the header fields *within* the mail). As I understand it, the attempt to "fix" the suspended-subscription "problem" has nothing to do with where the bounces are going, but rather with their being produced in the first place. As far as I have seen described on the list, nobody knows why the bounces are being generated; there have been plausible guesses involving misguided anti-spam measures, but even those I haven't seen any confirmation of as the cause of any of the suspensions. It's certainly possible I've missed something, but the continuation of the discussion as before seems to imply that's not it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 6 08:02:37 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 09:02:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: UNIBUS RK611 (RK06/RK07) controller available Message-ID: <20170306140237.D3D7E18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I have a complete RK611 (backplane and boards, no cables, sorry). I doubt very much I'm ever going to have any RK07's to use it with, so it's available if anyone has a use for it. It seems to be in reasonably good condition, but I have no idea if it's working or not. Noel From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Mar 6 10:01:55 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 17:01:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Mar 2017, Mouse wrote: > Only if you don't bother editing it down to whichever address you want > to reply to (as I did for this message). If your user agent doesn't > let you do that, well, your choice of a crippled user agent (and an > inability to edit the list of recipients is a pretty serious failing > for a user agent) is not reason to mangle the list even further for > everyone else. You know how to see what user agent I use (hint: alpine). And it is fully capable of editing or changing anything I want. >> This is *wrong* and must be corrected (i.e. removed)! > > I disagree. I disagree with your disagreement. > For one thing, that is one of only two places the actual sender's > address appears anywhere in the headers, based on the mail I'm replying > to (and the other one is in a Received: comment, even less available to > user agents and not present unless the sending mailsystem happens to > add it). Yes, and it must not be in the Reply-To: field because in normal cases, this field is the one used for replying, and I want to reply to the list, and only to the list. If I want to reply personally, I override the default and take the From: address instead. That's how it should work. For example, alpine ask me "Use "Reply-To:" address instead of "From:" address?" and defaults to "yes" because the former field has a higher priority. A compromise would be to have just the sender's address in the header field, not with a second recipient cctalk at ... >> No, the Envelope-From: [...] > > The envelope-from is not a header and in general does not have a name Ehm, right ;-) > with a colon after it. (Your user agent, or possibly your mail store, Don't blame my user agent, I'm fond of it ;-) It was just my fault. > As I understand it, the attempt to "fix" the suspended-subscription > "problem" has nothing to do with where the bounces are going, but > rather with their being produced in the first place. As far as I have [...] Yes, it is, well, funny... I haven't been able to figure out what the problem could be. I know that in my case, I've never had any bounce problem with this list, although the mail gateway and server on my side are quite picky. BTW over here, legally it is not allowed to reject spam mails. Christian PS: Replying to "Mouse " is somehow weird... From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Mar 6 10:18:18 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 08:18:18 -0800 Subject: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals In-Reply-To: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> References: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Ugh, this leaves me feeling so conflicted. One or more of these rigs sounds so tempting, but both my house and my 11/730's Unibus cage are full. Do I stash one in one of my sea containers in the hope that someday find time to let it timeshare a desk in my house, and also find a place to plug it in? Or do I do the sane thing, and pretend I never saw this posting? :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Mar 6 10:32:02 2017 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 08:32:02 -0800 Subject: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals Message-ID: You snatch two - 1 for now and 1 for backup :). Plus it is in your neck of the woods or dessert to be more accurate. . -------- Original message -------- From: "Mark J. Blair via cctalk" Date: 3/6/17 8:18 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals Ugh, this leaves me feeling so conflicted. One or more of these rigs sounds so tempting, but both my house and my 11/730's Unibus cage are full. Do I stash one in one of my sea containers in the hope that someday find time to let it timeshare a desk in my house, and also find a place to plug it in? Or do I do the sane thing, and pretend I never saw this posting? :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From u.tagge at gmx.de Mon Mar 6 09:04:33 2017 From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 16:04:33 +0100 Subject: UNIBUS RK611 (RK06/RK07) controller available In-Reply-To: <20170306140237.D3D7E18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170306140237.D3D7E18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hi Noel, I'm really interested to get a Backplane and Board Set (RK611), for my two RK7 drives. I think we are not on the same continent, but I'm willing to spend some bucks for shipping, ... . So happy to hear from you. Many Greetings Ulrich From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 6 10:43:16 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:43:16 -0500 Subject: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals In-Reply-To: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> References: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 2:56 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > I picked these up as part of an estate liquidation, but I don't have a > Unibus setup to run them off, and they are large and taking up space. They sound like fun (I never got to play with stuff like that when it was new - back in the mid-80s we were 100% dumb terminals, no workstations). Sadly, I'm far too far away to help rescue. -ethan From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Mar 6 11:33:52 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 12:33:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > You know how to see what user agent I use (hint: alpine). And it is > fully capable of editing or changing anything I want. Good. Then what's the problem? Do you just want the list to be tuned so that you won't have to take a few seconds to edit out any addresses you don't want to send to? Basically, on the assumption that everyone shares your particular preferences? Because... > Yes, and it must not be in the Reply-To: field because in normal > cases, this field is the one used for replying, and I want to reply > to the list, and only to the list. ...that's sure what this sounds like. If so, I have little sympathy for your position. >> As I understand it, the attempt to "fix" the suspended-subscription >> "problem" has nothing to do with where the bounces are going, but >> rather with their being produced in the first place. > Yes, it is, well, funny... I haven't been able to figure out what the > problem could be. I know lots of things it could be. I don't know what it is. Nor have I seen anyone claiming to have actually looked into it enough to know what it is. (The most plausible guess I've seen is DMARC, which by design breaks mailing lists, but, based on just what I've seen said, nobody has actually dug up enough info to confirm or refute that. I don't have enough visibility into any relevant system to do so myself; all the suspensions I've personally had have been my system performing as configured, rejecting mail I want it to reject.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 6 12:10:40 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 18:10:40 +0000 Subject: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 06/03/2017 16:43, "Ethan Dicks via cctalk" wrote: > On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 2:56 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk > wrote: >> I picked these up as part of an estate liquidation, but I don't have a >> Unibus setup to run them off, and they are large and taking up space. > > They sound like fun (I never got to play with stuff like that when it > was new - back in the mid-80s we were 100% dumb terminals, no > workstations). Sadly, I'm far too far away to help rescue. Ditto, ditto and ditto. Wrong side of the pond :/ In fact, up until this morning I had no idea such a beast existed! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Mon Mar 6 12:23:29 2017 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 19:23:29 +0100 Subject: AW: Re: Rack-mounting a TU56 Message-ID: <048201d296a6$c12d8890$438899b0$@liftoff.at> Hi, will join a group buy, need caps for 2 drives .. With best regards Gerhard -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Montag, 06. M?rz 2017 19:00 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 33, Issue 6 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 6 12:32:07 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:32:07 -0700 Subject: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/6/2017 9:32 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > You snatch two - 1 for now and 1 for backup :). Plus it is in your > neck of the woods or dessert to be more accurate. . Umm We all have MOUNTAINS of OLD IRON up to our neck, or want anyway.Ben From lists at loomcom.com Mon Mar 6 13:06:18 2017 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 13:06:18 -0600 Subject: Still Looking For AT&T 3B2 Internals Docs In-Reply-To: <2a8850d1-37fc-4580-2ecb-7e83b5eca83d@oryx.us> References: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> <2a8850d1-37fc-4580-2ecb-7e83b5eca83d@oryx.us> Message-ID: <20170306190618.GA9296@loomcom.com> * On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 03:50:36AM -0600, Jerry Kemp via cctalk wrote: > Hello Seth, > > Fingers crossed that you already have what you need. > > Given the possibility that you don't, my comment here is that your request > for internal documents are somewhat vague. Can you be somewhat more > specifics? I have done some additional digging, so I think I can be much more specific now about what documents would be helpful to me. None of these seem to be online, and I've done some exhaustive searching of library archives and the used book market to see if I can find them, but they haven't turned up any hits yet. Anyway, the documents that I think would be most useful are all listed in the 1987 and 1993 editions of the Bell Labs catalog "The AT&T Documentation Guide", both of which are posted online. 1. "3B2 Computer Technical Reference Manual" (305-490) 2. "3B2/3B5 Computer Driver Design Guide" (305-495) 3. "Unix System V/VME OEM Porting Manual" (307-780) 4. "AT&T 3B2 Computer Feature Card Interface Design Manual" (305-492) 5. "AT&T 3B2 Computer Debug Monitor Guide" (305-442) The numbers in parentheses are document numbers used by AT&T. > The reason specifically I'm asking, is I was reviewing an old Unix > book/document earlier, "Life with Unix" by Don Libes & Sandy Ressler. The > document makes a lot of comments about both Berkeley/BSD and AT&T, and how > AT&T was using Unix internally all over the place. It definitely pays to look at outside resources. One of the most useful books for this project has been Maurice Bach's "The Design of the UNIX Operating System", which describes System V Release 3 in great detail. This, combined with the SVR3 source code, have been invaluable to me. The 3B2 was the main porting platform for SVR3, so there are lots of tidbits and details about the hardware in it. In fact, without the SVR3 source code, I would be absolutely nowhere in this project. > And to be more specific, I'm wondering out loud here if possibly, the > documentation you might need may not be directly accessible, but that > information might be available in a round about way, possibly thru the telco > side of things. Indeed, there's a lot of documentation about the 3B20 thanks to the telco side of things. I haven't found any 3B2 documentation down that path, but it remains interesting to me. > Wishing you luck, Many thanks and best wishes! > Jerry -Seth From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 6 13:11:45 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 14:11:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) Message-ID: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning >>> terrible fluorescent lighting. >> There's another kind? :-) > in fact you can get LEDs that fit in fluorescent fixtures, either as is I've been looking for LED replacements, but I haven't seen them; I'd have thought that that would be a pretty popular item, but I haven't seen them in any local stores. Are they only available as an online option? > or (probably a better choice) with the ballast removed. Definitely - ballasts are such a pain. Actually, let me be more accurate: the ballasts in 4' (40W) lights (where they put the two bulbs in series) are a pain. The new ballasts for the 8' lights (a couple of decades back, in the US, regulations mandated a change) are actually a delight; you have to re-wire old fixtures a bit to install them (since the new ones no longer run the lights in series), but the upside is that 8' bulbs now either work - or don't. This is distinctly unlike the 4' ones, where bulb X will work when paired with bulb Y, but not when paired with bulb Z. (Because 40W bulbs are wired in series pairs, and as they age, their characteristics change.) I don't suppose there are ballasts for 40W bulbs that _don't_ wire them in series? Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 6 13:17:20 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 19:17:20 +0000 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) In-Reply-To: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I have replaced all of the incandescent and CFL bulbs in my house with LED bulbs. I have 2 full boxes of fluorescent tubes but by the time I have used them up (not as long as some folks might think) LED replacements should be readily available and priced well enough to change all of them, too. Oh yeah, I have also replaced all my outdoor Christmas lights with LED as well. :-) bill ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 2:11 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) > From: Paul Koning >>> terrible fluorescent lighting. >> There's another kind? :-) > in fact you can get LEDs that fit in fluorescent fixtures, either as is I've been looking for LED replacements, but I haven't seen them; I'd have thought that that would be a pretty popular item, but I haven't seen them in any local stores. Are they only available as an online option? > or (probably a better choice) with the ballast removed. Definitely - ballasts are such a pain. Actually, let me be more accurate: the ballasts in 4' (40W) lights (where they put the two bulbs in series) are a pain. The new ballasts for the 8' lights (a couple of decades back, in the US, regulations mandated a change) are actually a delight; you have to re-wire old fixtures a bit to install them (since the new ones no longer run the lights in series), but the upside is that 8' bulbs now either work - or don't. This is distinctly unlike the 4' ones, where bulb X will work when paired with bulb Y, but not when paired with bulb Z. (Because 40W bulbs are wired in series pairs, and as they age, their characteristics change.) I don't suppose there are ballasts for 40W bulbs that _don't_ wire them in series? Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 6 13:20:24 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 14:20:24 -0500 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) In-Reply-To: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3554676E-9953-4ADE-99D8-74A4B8D43E2B@comcast.net> > On Mar 6, 2017, at 2:11 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >>>> terrible fluorescent lighting. > >>> There's another kind? :-) > >> in fact you can get LEDs that fit in fluorescent fixtures, either as is > > I've been looking for LED replacements, but I haven't seen them; I'd have > thought that that would be a pretty popular item, but I haven't seen them in > any local stores. Are they only available as an online option? The Home Depot website lists both "remove ballast" and "keep the ballast" flavors, in stock at my local store. A much larger selection can be found online. I've used 1000bulbs.com in the past, good people. paul From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Mar 6 13:23:55 2017 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 14:23:55 -0500 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) In-Reply-To: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9BDD00EA-6632-4DA5-9688-9563EE4492F5@verizon.net> I bought 4x2 (4', 2 bulb) replacement LED fixtures on Amazon to swap out some of the fluorescent fixtures in my shop. You can get 3 color temperatures (I got 2700k I think). Hard-wired, but an easy install and the light is very bright. $53/per. Rich Sent from my iPhone On Mar 6, 2017, at 2:11 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Paul Koning > >>>> terrible fluorescent lighting. > >>> There's another kind? :-) > >> in fact you can get LEDs that fit in fluorescent fixtures, either as is > > I've been looking for LED replacements, but I haven't seen them; I'd have > thought that that would be a pretty popular item, but I haven't seen them in > any local stores. Are they only available as an online option? > >> or (probably a better choice) with the ballast removed. > > Definitely - ballasts are such a pain. Actually, let me be more accurate: the > ballasts in 4' (40W) lights (where they put the two bulbs in series) are a > pain. > > The new ballasts for the 8' lights (a couple of decades back, in the US, > regulations mandated a change) are actually a delight; you have to re-wire old > fixtures a bit to install them (since the new ones no longer run the lights in > series), but the upside is that 8' bulbs now either work - or don't. > > This is distinctly unlike the 4' ones, where bulb X will work when paired with > bulb Y, but not when paired with bulb Z. (Because 40W bulbs are wired in > series pairs, and as they age, their characteristics change.) > > I don't suppose there are ballasts for 40W bulbs that _don't_ wire them in > series? > > Noel From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 6 13:40:12 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:40:12 -0800 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) In-Reply-To: <9BDD00EA-6632-4DA5-9688-9563EE4492F5@verizon.net> References: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9BDD00EA-6632-4DA5-9688-9563EE4492F5@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 03/06/2017 11:23 AM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > I bought 4x2 (4', 2 bulb) replacement LED fixtures on Amazon to swap > out some of the fluorescent fixtures in my shop. You can get 3 color > temperatures (I got 2700k I think). Hard-wired, but an easy install > and the light is very bright. $53/per. I've got the T8 lights in my shop running from solid-state (GE) ballasts that I picked up perhaps 20 years ago. When I get to the bottom of the box, I'll probably replace the fixtures with LED ones, so any information like this is good to know. FWIW, they're 4-lamp fixtures (2 ballast). Replacements needn't fit the original form factor--I suspect that there are smaller, more compact LED fixtures with equivalent light output. --Chuck From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Mar 6 13:42:31 2017 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 20:42:31 +0100 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) In-Reply-To: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170306194231.GA16037@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Mar 06, 2017 at 02:11:45PM -0500, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: [...] > I've been looking for LED replacements, but I haven't seen them; I'd have > thought that that would be a pretty popular item, but I haven't seen them in > any local stores. Are they only available as an online option? I've seen people I trust on such matters rave about Osram SubstiTUBE: https://www.osram.com/osram_com/products/led-technology/lamps/led-tubes/ Whether they're online-only mainly comes down to how good your local shops are. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 6 15:12:39 2017 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 21:12:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 2647A BASIC/AUTOPLOT47 and DEMO tape preservation References: <955469087.2370136.1488834759178.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <955469087.2370136.1488834759178@mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I have a couple of HP 2647A tapes:? BASCI/AUTOPLOT47 and DEMO.?? They look to be in good condition.? I have had them in a climate controlled lab since acquiring them as part of a sizeable lot of HP tapes last year. I am curious if there are any known good copies of these tapes out there.?? Are these the same as (i.e., can be created from) the floppy images available on hpmuseum.net? If these are not already archived, I would be interested in preserving them.? I realize that reading tapes this old may be a "one-shot only" process, and I don't have the expertise or equipment to be able to archive these tapes. Is there anyone on this list with the interest and ability to archive these tapes and make the images available to the community in a useful format? Thanks, Dave From other at oryx.us Mon Mar 6 15:54:17 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 15:54:17 -0600 Subject: Still Looking For AT&T 3B2 Internals Docs In-Reply-To: <20170306190618.GA9296@loomcom.com> References: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> <2a8850d1-37fc-4580-2ecb-7e83b5eca83d@oryx.us> <20170306190618.GA9296@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Very interesting. I didn't start wearing a Unix hat till 1989-1990 time period. Aside from the ATT 3B2, my only other exposure to SysVR3 Unix was thru Banyan Vines. Banyan Vines sat on top of SysVR3 Unix, and we used a lot of Banyan Vines. When (Banyan) boxes went down, typically due to poor power/power outages and no UPS's, I typically got a call to recover them, which entailed interacting with the Unix underneath, until it was recovered enough that file systems were repaired and the full Banyan NOS stack could come up. Back on topic, I guess I had not understood your request enough, I had though you were needing specific hardware and CPU information. Did not realize that there were software/SysVR3 questions you were still asking. Again, wishing you good luck in acquiring the data that you need to move forward. Jerry Kemp On 03/ 6/17 01:06 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: lots of stuff deleted here > > It definitely pays to look at outside resources. One of the most > useful books for this project has been Maurice Bach's "The Design of > the UNIX Operating System", which describes System V Release 3 in > great detail. This, combined with the SVR3 source code, have been > invaluable to me. The 3B2 was the main porting platform for SVR3, so > there are lots of tidbits and details about the hardware in it. In > fact, without the SVR3 source code, I would be absolutely nowhere in > this project. > > > -Seth > From lists at loomcom.com Mon Mar 6 17:24:16 2017 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 17:24:16 -0600 Subject: Still Looking For AT&T 3B2 Internals Docs In-Reply-To: References: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> <2a8850d1-37fc-4580-2ecb-7e83b5eca83d@oryx.us> <20170306190618.GA9296@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20170306232416.GA23899@loomcom.com> * On Mon, Mar 06, 2017 at 03:54:17PM -0600, Jerry Kemp via cctalk wrote: > Very interesting. I didn't start wearing a Unix hat till 1989-1990 time > period. Aside from the ATT 3B2, my only other exposure to SysVR3 Unix was > thru Banyan Vines. > > Banyan Vines sat on top of SysVR3 Unix, and we used a lot of Banyan Vines. ... Very interesting, I wonder if I could learn anything from Banyan Vines? I recall it on the PC, but I didn't realize it was on SVR3 as well. > Back on topic, I guess I had not understood your request enough, I had > though you were needing specific hardware and CPU information. Did not > realize that there were software/SysVR3 questions you were still asking. Oh, I definitely do still need specific hardware information. The "big" chips (the CPU, MMU, DMA controller, floppy & disk controllers, UART, etc.) are thankfully very well documented! But the rest of what makes up the 3B2/400 system board is not documented anywhere but inside the SVR3 source code. Also, if I ever hope to emulate the cartridge tape controller or the extended serial ports, SCSI, or Ethernet cards, I'll need yet more information. I don't have the source for those drivers, so I have absolutely no idea how they operate. > Jerry Kemp -Seth From other at oryx.us Mon Mar 6 18:09:32 2017 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 18:09:32 -0600 Subject: Still Looking For AT&T 3B2 Internals Docs In-Reply-To: <20170306232416.GA23899@loomcom.com> References: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> <2a8850d1-37fc-4580-2ecb-7e83b5eca83d@oryx.us> <20170306190618.GA9296@loomcom.com> <20170306232416.GA23899@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <5ded7c42-aa42-7d1e-d611-7395259628fb@oryx.us> On 03/ 6/17 05:24 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > * On Mon, Mar 06, 2017 at 03:54:17PM -0600, Jerry Kemp via cctalk wrote: >> Very interesting. I didn't start wearing a Unix hat till 1989-1990 time >> period. Aside from the ATT 3B2, my only other exposure to SysVR3 Unix was >> thru Banyan Vines. >> >> Banyan Vines sat on top of SysVR3 Unix, and we used a lot of Banyan Vines. > ... > > Very interesting, I wonder if I could learn anything from Banyan Vines? > I recall it on the PC, but I didn't realize it was on SVR3 as well. > To the best of my knowledge, Banyan Vines was deemed an NOS, or network operating system. A term common, at least in my circles in the early to mid 1990's. Banyan Vines sat on top of SysV release 3 Unix and, to the best of my knowledge, only ever ran on top of 32 bit x86 systems. Much in relationship, to, at least at one time, the Novell Netware system sat on top of DOS. OTOH, towards the later part of Banyan's existence, Banyan had decoupled their X.500 based directory product, StreetTalk. I understand that the StreetTalk was available for most common Unix's on RISC processors of the day, but my only actual, hands on experience with the directory product was on Solaris on SPARC processors. Although it has been since the mid 1990's since having any personal hands on experience with any Banyan product, I do know that they are out there floating around on the Internet. A couple of years back, I was able to obtain a copy of (as I understand) the last release of Banyan Vines, version 8.5, on 3.5" floppy disk images. Not sure if there is anything of value to you in the above rant, or if I am just reminiscing out loud to the group over decades gone-by. Feel free to reach out to me back channel if you believe I might have anything that may further your ATT 3B2 emulation effort. Jerry From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 6 18:18:41 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 00:18:41 +0000 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <000001d2915a$82044dd0$860ce970$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Test again, None of my posts seem to be getting through... On 28/02/2017 00:35, "Jay West" wrote: > Test received ;) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 6:34 PM > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Test > > Ezwind? > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Mar 6 18:36:58 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 19:36:58 -0500 Subject: Test Message-ID: <177ca.1ec00539.45ef5aaa@aol.com> I see it! Ed# In a message dated 3/6/2017 5:18:52 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Test again, None of my posts seem to be getting through... On 28/02/2017 00:35, "Jay West" wrote: > Test received ;) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 6:34 PM > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Test > > Ezwind? > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Mar 6 18:48:04 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 18:48:04 -0600 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: References: <177ca.1ec00539.45ef5aaa@aol.com> Message-ID: Hmm On Mar 6, 2017 6:37 PM, "Ed via cctalk" wrote: I see it! Ed# In a message dated 3/6/2017 5:18:52 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Test again, None of my posts seem to be getting through... On 28/02/2017 00:35, "Jay West" wrote: > Test received ;) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 6:34 PM > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Test > > Ezwind? > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Mar 6 19:29:05 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 19:29:05 -0600 Subject: Quoting under the new mailing list system (was Re: Test) In-Reply-To: References: <177ca.1ec00539.45ef5aaa@aol.com> Message-ID: <20170307012905.GA67963@gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 06, 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > In a message dated 3/6/2017 5:18:52 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: I just noticed the above attribution introducing a quoted email; notice how it gives the email address cctalk at classiccmp.org but doesn't give any information on the person on whose behalf cctalk sent the message. I know this is an issue with MUAs (whether it's actually configurable in any given MUA or not), but I think it would get annoying pretty quickly if the list were to fill up with messages quoting someone without saying whom. -- Eric Christopherson From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Mar 6 20:34:04 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 20:34:04 -0600 Subject: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals In-Reply-To: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> References: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 1:56 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > I picked these up as part of an estate liquidation, but I don't have a > Unibus setup to run them off, and they are large and taking up space. They > now need to be gone. The condition is unknown but they are intact. Before getting rid of them all, maybe you (or someone on the list who receives one) could consider taking some photos for the Terminals Wiki. I don't believe it has an entry there yet: http://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/Category:DEC >From the tech summary on Bitsavers, they look like BA23 chassis. Do you have keyboards, mice, anything else with them? From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Mar 6 20:40:22 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 20:40:22 -0600 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) In-Reply-To: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <58BE1D96.50605@pico-systems.com> On 03/06/2017 01:11 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > in fact you can get LEDs that fit in fluorescent fixtures, either as is > > I've been looking for LED replacements, but I haven't seen them; I'd have > thought that that would be a pretty popular item, but I haven't seen them in > any local stores. Are they only available as an online option? > > I have converted our kitchen to LEDs. See : http://pico-systems.com/Lighting.html Not exactly cheap (the LED lighting power supplies are pretty expensive) but they are working quite well. Jon From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Mar 6 20:56:46 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 18:56:46 -0800 Subject: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals In-Reply-To: References: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <0C8B309E-C037-4CFC-9AF6-E8EDD5873C75@nf6x.net> > On Mar 6, 2017, at 6:34 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > > Before getting rid of them all, maybe you (or someone on the list who > receives one) could consider taking some photos for the Terminals > Wiki. I don't believe it has an entry there yet: If I get them, there will (eventually) be pictures, and maybe even a YouTube video. The very limited information that seems to be available online makes them even more interesting to me! Hmm, I would probably need to rig a Unibus expansion chassis for my VAX-11/730, since its card cage is full. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Mar 6 20:57:09 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 20:57:09 -0600 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) In-Reply-To: <3554676E-9953-4ADE-99D8-74A4B8D43E2B@comcast.net> References: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3554676E-9953-4ADE-99D8-74A4B8D43E2B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20170307025709.GB67963@gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 06, 2017, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > On Mar 6, 2017, at 2:11 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > >> From: Paul Koning > > > >>>> terrible fluorescent lighting. > > > >>> There's another kind? :-) > > > >> in fact you can get LEDs that fit in fluorescent fixtures, either as is > > > > I've been looking for LED replacements, but I haven't seen them; I'd have > > thought that that would be a pretty popular item, but I haven't seen them in > > any local stores. Are they only available as an online option? > > The Home Depot website lists both "remove ballast" and "keep the ballast" flavors, in stock at my local store. > > A much larger selection can be found online. I've used 1000bulbs.com in the past, good people. > > paul > I assume the kind of LEDs under discussion doesn't have the problem of overheating that some LEDs have when placed in enclosures without heat sinks, right? -- Eric Christopherson From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Mon Mar 6 21:10:05 2017 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 20:10:05 -0700 Subject: Data General MTB Reference Sought In-Reply-To: <002b01d28da7$0a992830$1fcb7890$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <3d6a8d42-ca4e-325a-de30-5d84df82482f@stephenmerrony.co.uk> <5c415494-cc4c-d835-8c95-213f3d52b83a@Wild-Hare.com> <002b01d28da7$0a992830$1fcb7890$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: <947c8e76-8d79-8eaf-a720-20b5bd10784f@Wild-Hare.com> In most tape devices the DCH Device address register refers to a logical address - 0-32 KWords in Novas and Eclipses, and usually 0-256KB in most MVs. In a mapped system, DCH map functions are transparent to these devices since only the 'logical' address is sent from the device to the CPU during a DCH data transfer. It is up to the specific processor and its corresponding operating system to determine how and when the logical-to-physical map. The DG hardware interface guide describes the PIO, DCH and on MVs the BMC, specifications. On 2/23/2017 12:32 AM, Stephen Merrony wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > Thanks for that confirmation of my hazy memory! > > What I can't seem to find is any reference as to how the tape drives interact with the DCH bus and the associated map slots. I thought maybe a later guide might cover that? > > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Ray [mailto:Bruce at Wild-Hare.com] > Sent: 25 January 2017 18:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Data General MTB Reference Sought > > G'day Steve - > > AOS/VS OS tape drive base names are MTA, MTB, MTC, etc. and do not directly correspond to the assembler mnemonic name(s) - don't be confused by this difference. > > The AOS/VS 'MTA'-type tape drive is described on page IV-5. These correspond to the original DG model 4030/6020 units. > > The AOS/VS 'MTB'-type tape drive is described on page IV-15. These correspond to the DG model 6026 units. > > The AOS/VS 'MTC'-type tape drive is internally the same as the MTB except only a single unit is supported. This was done to distinguish single-unit support for the popular DG model 6125 streamer. > > The IV-15 mag tape programming model was consistent between the Nova/Eclipse/MV bus controllers and the Lbus controllers through emulation. One size [almost] fit all. > > What difference(s) are you seeing? > > > Bruce > > > > On 1/25/2017 1:01 AM, Stephen Merrony wrote: >> Does anyone have (a scan of) a manual that covers programming the >> MV-era MTB tape controller? >> >> I have a 1980 "Peripherals" manual (014-000632-01) from the >> "Programmer's Reference Series" which covers the MTA type, but it >> seems that the MTB behaves a bit differently and I am missing some >> information for my current project. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Steve >> > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 6 22:52:19 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 20:52:19 -0800 Subject: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals In-Reply-To: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> References: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8CF00E31-1052-4325-9C7F-593B03EB5CE2@aracnet.com> > On Mar 5, 2017, at 11:56 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > I picked these up as part of an estate liquidation, but I don't have a > Unibus setup to run them off, and they are large and taking up space. They > now need to be gone. The condition is unknown but they are intact. > > If you know what one is, you probably know how to hook it up and use it. If > you don't, they are NOT VAXen -- they're more like overgrown graphics > terminals that connect over Unibus. They are not like other VAXstations. > > Take as many as you like (greater Los Angeles area). However, units that > are not spoken for, or haven't made other arrangements regarding, will go > to the recycler this weekend. E-mail me offlist if you are interested. Cameron, Please keep in mind that these things are rare as hens teeth, if not rarer. This is only the second or third mention I?ve ever seen of them, and the first I?ve seen of anyone having any. Please do not recycle them. If nothing else, see if you can get them to one of the museums. About the only thing I know of that?s rarer seems to be the DECnet kit for RT-11! Zane From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Mar 6 23:01:33 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 23:01:33 -0600 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) In-Reply-To: <20170307025709.GB67963@gmail.com> References: <20170306191145.BE9F318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3554676E-9953-4ADE-99D8-74A4B8D43E2B@comcast.net> <20170307025709.GB67963@gmail.com> Message-ID: <58BE3EAD.9000206@pico-systems.com> On 03/06/2017 08:57 PM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > > I assume the kind of LEDs under discussion doesn't have the problem of > overheating that some LEDs have when placed in enclosures without heat > sinks, right? > The 48" LED fluorescent retrofits have a lot of surface area, so they probably do OK. The retrofits I made are electrically isolated from the line, and have 88 square inches of copper PC board material to act as a heat sink. They still run quite warm, although when on, the optical output of these things is stronger than full sunlight, so they appear to be REALLY warm on the skin, so that fools you. You have to test the temperature just one second after they are turned off to get a better idea of the real temperature. I'm running about 19 W total into 20 1W LEDs, replacing TWO 48" tubes. Previous input to a 2-lamp ancient ballast was 103 W, the LED supply draws 21 W, as measured with a real power meter. Jon From Craig.B.Mitchell at zf.com Mon Mar 6 21:22:33 2017 From: Craig.B.Mitchell at zf.com (Craig.B Mitchell) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 03:22:33 +0000 Subject: Atari 1400XL for sale... Message-ID: Hi, is your 1400xl still for sale? If so, what are you looking to get? Thanks for your time. Craig From kspt.tor at gmail.com Tue Mar 7 01:12:10 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 08:12:10 +0100 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: References: <000001d2915a$82044dd0$860ce970$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 7 March 2017 at 01:18, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Test again, None of my posts seem to be getting through... Saw it. And also what you sent a day ago(?), about using the 79L05 From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Mar 7 02:06:17 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 00:06:17 -0800 Subject: HP 2647A BASIC/AUTOPLOT47 and DEMO tape preservation In-Reply-To: <955469087.2370136.1488834759178@mail.yahoo.com> References: <955469087.2370136.1488834759178.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <955469087.2370136.1488834759178@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <71DDD543-D80C-4D9A-9E46-FE9388D3994F@gmail.com> Dave, I am interested. I have an HP 2647 with two restored tape drives, and have been looking for this exact tape set. I have some "new" Athana tapes. Step 1 would be to copy them to a new Athana master tape. Then step to could be to make copies available to the group. Step 3 would be to transfer them to an archive format, but in essence it's already been done by the hpmuseum (in 5.25" 2647 disc format, LIF I presume?). But I don't have that rare disc unit and interface card to connect it to the 2647 (if I had, I could indeed recreate the tapes). That said, I first need to work on step 0, which is lots of practicing recovering DC100 tapes reliably: baking them, changing the belt, cleaning the guides... Fortunately I have lots of DC100 tapes that I need to recover before touching yours. It might take me a couple month to get there. Contact me off list if you want. Marc > On Mar 6, 2017, at 1:12 PM, Dave via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > I have a couple of HP 2647A tapes: BASCI/AUTOPLOT47 and DEMO. They look to be in good condition. I have had them in a climate controlled lab since acquiring them as part of a sizeable lot of HP tapes last year. > I am curious if there are any known good copies of these tapes out there. Are these the same as (i.e., can be created from) the floppy images available on hpmuseum.net? > If these are not already archived, I would be interested in preserving them. I realize that reading tapes this old may be a "one-shot only" process, and I don't have the expertise or equipment to be able to archive these tapes. > Is there anyone on this list with the interest and ability to archive these tapes and make the images available to the community in a useful format? > Thanks, > Dave From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Mar 7 02:21:01 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 08:21:01 +0000 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 07/03/2017 07:12, "Tor Arntsen" wrote: > On 7 March 2017 at 01:18, Adrian Graham via cctalk > wrote: >> Test again, None of my posts seem to be getting through... > > Saw it. And also what you sent a day ago(?), about using the 79L05 Thanks for the replies! It's odd then that I don't see my own messages on the list any more then, and the one I sent at changeover time hasn't hit the archive whereas other folks' messages have. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Mar 7 03:48:23 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 10:48:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Mar 2017, Mouse wrote: >> Yes, and it must not be in the Reply-To: field because in normal >> cases, this field is the one used for replying, and I want to reply >> to the list, and only to the list. > > ...that's sure what this sounds like. If so, I have little sympathy > for your position. So you say the Reply-To: field is to be ignored although in all other contexts it is preferred over the From: field. Say what you want, I don't understand that. Quotes from RFC 5322: " The "From:" field specifies the author(s) of the message, that is, the mailbox(es) of the person(s) or system(s) responsible for the writing of the message. [...] The originator fields also provide the information required when replying to a message. When the "Reply-To:" field is present, it indicates the address(es) to which the author of the message suggests that replies be sent. In the absence of the "Reply-To:" field, replies SHOULD by default be sent to the mailbox(es) specified in the "From:" field unless otherwise specified by the person composing the reply. In all cases, the "From:" field *SHOULD NOT* contain any mailbox that does not belong to the author(s) of the message. See also section 3.6.3 for more information on forming the destination addresses for a reply. " And cctalk at ... is neither responsible for the writing of the message nor does it belong to the author of the message. But replies should be directed there, so there should be a Reply-To: field containing cctalk at ... and the From: field should contain the author's address. EOD from my part ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Mar 7 03:57:54 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 10:57:54 +0100 (CET) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Mar 2017, Mouse wrote: [...] And BTW, what you are doing is not clever at all: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG SMTP error from remote mail server after initial connection: host MX-4.rodents-montreal.org [98.124.61.89]: 550-.de's whois server, whois.denic.de, is completely broken, handing 550-out no contact information at all when queried for .de domains in 550 the usual way. Such a domain has no place on a civilized network. This is just wrong. Of course they hand out contact information! Sorry, I had to post it here since I cannot contact you directly. Christian From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Mar 7 04:14:03 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 05:14:03 -0500 Subject: HP 2647A BASIC/AUTOPLOT47 and DEMO tape preservation Message-ID: <180914b.16d7be2.45efe1eb@aol.com> smecc would like a tape also! neat! In a message dated 3/7/2017 1:08:12 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Dave, I am interested. I have an HP 2647 with two restored tape drives, and have been looking for this exact tape set. I have some "new" Athana tapes. Step 1 would be to copy them to a new Athana master tape. Then step to could be to make copies available to the group. Step 3 would be to transfer them to an archive format, but in essence it's already been done by the hpmuseum (in 5.25" 2647 disc format, LIF I presume?). But I don't have that rare disc unit and interface card to connect it to the 2647 (if I had, I could indeed recreate the tapes). That said, I first need to work on step 0, which is lots of practicing recovering DC100 tapes reliably: baking them, changing the belt, cleaning the guides... Fortunately I have lots of DC100 tapes that I need to recover before touching yours. It might take me a couple month to get there. Contact me off list if you want. Marc > On Mar 6, 2017, at 1:12 PM, Dave via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, > I have a couple of HP 2647A tapes: BASCI/AUTOPLOT47 and DEMO. They look to be in good condition. I have had them in a climate controlled lab since acquiring them as part of a sizeable lot of HP tapes last year. > I am curious if there are any known good copies of these tapes out there. Are these the same as (i.e., can be created from) the floppy images available on hpmuseum.net? > If these are not already archived, I would be interested in preserving them. I realize that reading tapes this old may be a "one-shot only" process, and I don't have the expertise or equipment to be able to archive these tapes. > Is there anyone on this list with the interest and ability to archive these tapes and make the images available to the community in a useful format? > Thanks, > Dave From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Mar 7 04:21:12 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 03:21:12 -0700 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 2:48 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > And cctalk at ... is neither responsible for the writing of the message nor > does it belong to the author of the message. But replies should be directed > there, so there should be a Reply-To: field containing cctalk at ... and the > From: field should contain the author's address. > And thus we come full circle. The "From:" header containing the original author's address is the cause of the unsubscribes due to bounces, and (I assume) the motivation for the recent change to the list behavior. The problem is that major production MTAs will reject (bounce) email with a "From:" whose domain uses DKIM or SPF, when the sending MTA isn't in the DKIM or SPF authorized sender list. This will almost always be true when messages are forwarded by a mailing list. Since the bounces go back to the mailing list, the mailing list software then drops the entirely legitimate list subscriber's subscription. :-( The behavior you describe is certainly correct according to the RFCs, but unfortunately now falls apart in practice. :-( From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Mar 7 04:58:38 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 10:58:38 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/03/2017 09:57, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > And BTW, what you are doing is not clever at all: > mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG > SMTP error from remote mail server after initial connection: > host MX-4.rodents-montreal.org [98.124.61.89]: > 550-.de's whois server, whois.denic.de, is completely broken, handing > 550-out no contact information at all when queried for .de domains in > 550 the usual way. Such a domain has no place on a civilized network. > > This is just wrong. Of course they hand out contact information! > Sorry, I had to post it here since I cannot contact you directly. No, Mouse is right, it's broken: $ whois uni-stuttgart.de % Error: 55000000007 Request not clearly specified $ whois -h whois.denic.de uni-stuttgart.de % Error: 55000000007 Request not clearly specified $ So then I try this: $ telnet whois.denic.de 43 Trying 81.91.170.6... Connected to whois.denic.de. Escape character is '^]'. help % SYNTAX: whois [-r] [-T types] [-C charset] key % % where our server understands the following options: % % -r turn off recursive lookups (default: on) % -T ace ACE input for domain lookup % -T domain (dn) only look for objects of type domain % -T status (st) only look for domain status % -C charset specify character set for the input/output % Available charsets: US-ASCII, ISO-8859-1, UTF-8 (default) % % NOTE: Read the detailed documentation for valid argument combinations. There are two special queries % % [?, HELP, help] displays this text % alive at whois returns 'alive' if whois server runs properly % % Detailed documentation under https://www.denic.de/webwhois/?lang=en % Connection closed by foreign host. $ So far, so good. The server's alive (yes, I also tried the "alive at whois" command). But: $ telnet whois.denic.de 43 Trying 81.91.170.6... Connected to whois.denic.de. Escape character is '^]'. whois -r uni-stuttgart.de % Error: 55000000007 Request not clearly specified Connection closed by foreign host. $ That's broken. And there is little helpful documentation about how to query the whois service at the URL given in the HELP text. I eventually found a document at https://www.denic.de/fileadmin/public/documentation/DENIC-12p_EN.pdf which describes how to make a whois query of this rather idiosyncratic server. It states that it should work as I tested it - but even adopting the example given in that document fails: $ whois -h whois.denic.de -T status uni-stuttgart.de % Error: 55000000007 Request not clearly specified $ $ telnet whois.denic.de 43 Trying 81.91.170.6... Connected to whois.denic.de. Escape character is '^]'. whois -T status uni-stuttgart.de % Error: 55000000007 Request not clearly specified Connection closed by foreign host. $ Epic fail. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Mar 7 07:47:20 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:47:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Mar 2017, Pete Turnbull wrote: > No, Mouse is right, it's broken: Works for me (also from different networks outside the university network): # whois uni-stuttgart.de % Copyright (c) 2010 by DENIC % Version: 2.0 % % Restricted rights. % % Terms and Conditions of Use % % The data in this record is provided by DENIC for informational purposes only. % DENIC does not guarantee its accuracy and cannot, under any circumstances, [...] Domain: uni-stuttgart.de Nserver: dns0.uni-stuttgart.de 129.69.0.1 2001:7c0:7c0:0:0:0:babe:face Nserver: dns1.belwue.de Nserver: dns1.uni-stuttgart.edu Nserver: dns3.belwue.de Nserver: minnehaha.rhrk.uni-kl.de [...] Christian From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Mar 7 08:19:57 2017 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 15:19:57 +0100 Subject: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals In-Reply-To: <8CF00E31-1052-4325-9C7F-593B03EB5CE2@aracnet.com> References: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> <8CF00E31-1052-4325-9C7F-593B03EB5CE2@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <1488896397.17970.10.camel@agj.net> m?n 2017-03-06 klockan 20:52 -0800 skrev Zane Healy via cctalk: > > On Mar 5, 2017, at 11:56 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > > > I picked these up as part of an estate liquidation, but I don't have a > > Unibus setup to run them off, and they are large and taking up space. They > > now need to be gone. The condition is unknown but they are intact. > > > > If you know what one is, you probably know how to hook it up and use it. If > > you don't, they are NOT VAXen -- they're more like overgrown graphics > > terminals that connect over Unibus. They are not like other VAXstations. > > > > Take as many as you like (greater Los Angeles area). However, units that > > are not spoken for, or haven't made other arrangements regarding, will go > > to the recycler this weekend. E-mail me offlist if you are interested. > > Cameron, > Please keep in mind that these things are rare as hens teeth, if not rarer. This is only the second or third mention I?ve ever seen of them, and the first I?ve seen of anyone having any. Please do not recycle them. If nothing else, see if you can get them to one of the museums. > > About the only thing I know of that?s rarer seems to be the DECnet kit for RT-11! > > Zane Which kinds of VAXen can accept the terminal server card ? From ams at gnu.org Tue Mar 7 08:35:02 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 09:35:02 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: (message from Christian Corti via cctalk on Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:47:20 +0100 (CET)) References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > No, Mouse is right, it's broken: Works for me Ditto FWIW. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Mar 7 08:57:29 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:57:29 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/03/2017 13:47, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 7 Mar 2017, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> No, Mouse is right, it's broken: > > Works for me (also from different networks outside the university network): Interesting... I still get the same errors. Could it be location-dependant in some way? Are you using the standard whois port 43/TCP? -- Pete Pete Turnbull From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 7 09:07:11 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 10:07:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <201703071507.KAA00327@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> And BTW, what you are doing is not clever at all: >> mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG >> SMTP error from remote mail server after initial connection: >> host MX-4.rodents-montreal.org [98.124.61.89]: >> 550-.de's whois server, whois.denic.de, is completely broken, handing >> 550-out no contact information at all when queried for .de domains in >> 550 the usual way. Such a domain has no place on a civilized network. It's not supposed to be clever. I'm just willing to call brokenness brokenness. That it's an entire country that's broken does not make it any less broken. Nor does it get them a pass on brokenness; if anything, being big makes the offence greater - they have less excuse. >> This is just wrong. Of course they hand out contact information! They didn't when I put that block in place, not without some DENIC-specific option - and still don't; see below. That's why I wrote "when queried...in the usual way". Since the whole point of WHOIS is to find data on domains you don't know things about, requiring some idiosyncratic option is, IMO, broken. Here's what I see, run while composing this mail: [Sparkle] 1> whois -h whois.denic.de uni-stuttgart.de Domain: uni-stuttgart.de Status: connect [Sparkle] 2> or [Sparkle] 3> telnet whois.denic.de whois Trying 81.91.170.6... Connected to whois.denic.de. Escape character is '^]'. uni-stuttgart.de Domain: uni-stuttgart.de Status: connect Connection closed by foreign host. [Sparkle] 4> Maybe you consider that to be contact information. I don't. > $ whois -h whois.denic.de uni-stuttgart.de > % Error: 55000000007 Request not clearly specified I don't know what's going on here. The only way I've got that is to query for "-r uni-stuttgart.de". I know some whois clients automatically try to add the DENIC-specific option I mentioned above; perhaps yours is, but DENIC has changed and no longer accepts it? (IMO that would be, if anything, even more broken.) > $ telnet whois.denic.de 43 > Trying 81.91.170.6... > Connected to whois.denic.de. > Escape character is '^]'. > whois -r uni-stuttgart.de > % Error: 55000000007 Request not clearly specified > Connection closed by foreign host. > $ > That's broken. In that case, it's the query that's broken. The normal way to use whois for domains is to send just the domain name upon connecting; the "whois -r " prefix you used is probably responsible. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ams at gnu.org Tue Mar 7 09:43:16 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 10:43:16 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> (message from Pete Turnbull via cctalk on Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:57:29 +0000) References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: >> No, Mouse is right, it's broken: > > Works for me (also from different networks outside the university network): Interesting... I still get the same errors. Could it be location-dependant in some way? Tried from Boston, and Stockholm, so I don't think so. Are you using the standard whois port 43/TCP? Yes. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Mar 7 09:43:55 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 15:43:55 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <201703071507.KAA00327@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <201703071507.KAA00327@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <3ecd3f9e-5a83-90bb-a65c-ead5bed5f43c@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/03/2017 15:07, Mouse via cctalk wrote: >> $ telnet whois.denic.de 43 >> Trying 81.91.170.6... >> Connected to whois.denic.de. >> Escape character is '^]'. >> whois -r uni-stuttgart.de >> % Error: 55000000007 Request not clearly specified >> Connection closed by foreign host. >> $ > >> That's broken. > > In that case, it's the query that's broken. The normal way to use > whois for domains is to send just the domain name upon connecting; the > "whois -r " prefix you used is probably responsible. Nope, that's taken from their own documentation - and it makes no difference which options I give it, or none. I didn't show all the permutations I tried, both using a standard UNIX whois client, and using telnet to port 43. It's just broken. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 7 09:52:57 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 16:52:57 +0100 Subject: Atari 1400XL for sale... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 March 2017 at 04:22, Craig.B Mitchell via cctalk wrote: > Hi, is your 1400xl still for sale? If so, what are you looking to get? Who are you asking? You just posted to a thousand people on a mailing list. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 7 09:55:51 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 16:55:51 +0100 Subject: Still Looking For AT&T 3B2 Internals Docs In-Reply-To: <5ded7c42-aa42-7d1e-d611-7395259628fb@oryx.us> References: <20170228033340.GA19027@loomcom.com> <2a8850d1-37fc-4580-2ecb-7e83b5eca83d@oryx.us> <20170306190618.GA9296@loomcom.com> <20170306232416.GA23899@loomcom.com> <5ded7c42-aa42-7d1e-d611-7395259628fb@oryx.us> Message-ID: On 7 March 2017 at 01:09, Jerry Kemp via cctalk wrote: > Much in relationship, to, at least at one time, the Novell Netware system > sat on top of DOS. Very very kinda sortof. Netware 2 could cold-boot itself. Netware 3 & 4 needed DOS as a bootloader. If you wanted, you could issue a command: REMOVE DOS ... and then the memory was reclaimed and added to the disk cache. But if you wanted to load stuff from floppy or from a FAT C: drive, or from a CD that didn't have Netware drivers, you needed DOS present. But Netware wasn't really running on it, as demonstrated by the ability to remove it after booting. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 7 10:59:07 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:59:07 -0500 Subject: FTGH (you come get): VAXstation 100 terminals In-Reply-To: <1488896397.17970.10.camel@agj.net> References: <201703060756.v267uo6q8323176@floodgap.com> <8CF00E31-1052-4325-9C7F-593B03EB5CE2@aracnet.com> <1488896397.17970.10.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: >> > On Mar 5, 2017, at 11:56 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> > >> > I picked these up as part of an estate liquidation, but I don't have a >> > Unibus setup to run them... > Which kinds of VAXen can accept the terminal server card ? Given that they come from 1984 or so, they should work with the 11/780, 11/785, 11/750, 11/730, 11/725, and probably later VAXen with a Unibus. What's less clear to me is how long the drivers were supported. IIRC, the docs on Bitsavers mention support for VMS 3.x. I would rather expect support through VMS 4.X, but I wouldn't count on an SMP-friendly driver for VMS 5.X and newer unless support was specifically mentioned on the SPD. A lot of older stuff didn't get brought forward with VMS 5.X drivers. -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Tue Mar 7 11:08:37 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:08:37 -0600 Subject: 3B2 stuff-maybe Message-ID: <032b01d29765$76532fe0$62f98fa0$@com> I called the only place I know of that supported 3B2 stuff, which is Communications Hardware in TX. They recently had a change in technicians, and a lot of the older stuff they no longer support got culled, but they are willing to look for boards, drives, or whatever would help the collectors get their machines up and running again. I described the documentation set to them, and they will look for it. Any parts you want, send me a list, and they will hunt for me. Cindy Croxton From spedraja at ono.com Tue Mar 7 11:20:00 2017 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:20:00 +0100 Subject: 3B2 stuff-maybe In-Reply-To: <032b01d29765$76532fe0$62f98fa0$@com> References: <032b01d29765$76532fe0$62f98fa0$@com> Message-ID: Thanks. I must check my 3B2/400 and the 3B1. The first one had some issues but I don't touched it for a long time. Regards Sergio 2017-03-07 18:08 GMT+01:00 Electronics Plus via cctalk : > I called the only place I know of that supported 3B2 stuff, which is > Communications Hardware in TX. They recently had a change in technicians, > and a lot of the older stuff they no longer support got culled, but they are > willing to look for boards, drives, or whatever would help the collectors > get their machines up and running again. I described the documentation set > to them, and they will look for it. Any parts you want, send me a list, and > they will hunt for me. > > > > Cindy Croxton > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 7 11:23:27 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 12:23:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) Message-ID: <20170307172327.3966F18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > I have converted our kitchen to LEDs. Yeah, I've already done ours, too. Our fixtures are let into the ceiling, so just replacing them with LED ones wasn't an option; I couldn't find ones that took the same opening. But I bought an under-ceiling fluorescent-sized LED fixture, made by a company called Hampton Bay, to replace an under-ceiling fixture in another room, and I noticed it was just enough smaller than the ones in the kitchen. So I gutted the kitchen fixtures, took Hampton Bay units, discarded the plastic light-shields, and with a bit of trimming, convinced the base plates (which holds the power supply, LEDs, etc) to fit into the existing fixtures. I'm now currently wanting to do my shop, and I'm looking for something which is a bit less work - tubes that I simply plug in, or something like that, are what I'm looking for! Noel From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Mar 7 13:01:47 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:01:47 +0100 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <201703071507.KAA00327@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <201703071507.KAA00327@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20170307190147.GA73514@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse via cctalk wrote: > >> And BTW, what you are doing is not clever at all: > >> mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG > >> SMTP error from remote mail server after initial connection: > >> host MX-4.rodents-montreal.org [98.124.61.89]: > >> 550-.de's whois server, whois.denic.de, is completely broken, handing > >> 550-out no contact information at all when queried for .de domains in > >> 550 the usual way. Such a domain has no place on a civilized network. > > It's not supposed to be clever. I'm just willing to call brokenness > brokenness. That it's an entire country that's broken does not make it > any less broken. Nor does it get them a pass on brokenness; if > anything, being big makes the offence greater - they have less excuse. Yes..you are the good guy. It's better now? It may be not supposed to be clever, it's just supposed to be idiotic..you behave like a moron in this case, I'm toldd my opinion about that years before to you. I think no one from the german guys here can change anything on the DeNics behavior regarding their whois service, and you punishing all the germans for ther NIC service...OMG... You are an intelligent guy and a very good programmer..but in this case, sorry... Regards, Holm $ whois uni-stuttgart.de % IANA WHOIS server % for more information on IANA, visit http://www.iana.org % This query returned 1 object refer: whois.denic.de domain: DE organisation: DENIC eG address: Kaiserstrasse 75-77 address: Frankfurt am Main 60329 address: Germany contact: administrative name: Vorstand DENIC eG organisation: DENIC eG address: Kaiserstrasse 75-77 address: Frankfurt am Main 60329 address: Germany phone: +49 69 27235 0 fax-no: +49 69 27235 235 e-mail: vorstand at denic.de contact: technical name: Business Services organisation: DENIC eG address: Kaiserstrasse 75-77 address: Frankfurt am Main 60329 address: Germany .... -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Mar 7 13:04:29 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:04:29 -0500 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) Message-ID: <17a185b.48ca8260.45f05e3d@aol.com> we had tubes with LEDs in them... took old florescent tube out of fixture.. twisted in the thing with the LEDs in it that hacked wight into the lighting fixture and done! Ed# In a message dated 3/7/2017 10:23:36 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > From: Jon Elson > I have converted our kitchen to LEDs. Yeah, I've already done ours, too. Our fixtures are let into the ceiling, so just replacing them with LED ones wasn't an option; I couldn't find ones that took the same opening. But I bought an under-ceiling fluorescent-sized LED fixture, made by a company called Hampton Bay, to replace an under-ceiling fixture in another room, and I noticed it was just enough smaller than the ones in the kitchen. So I gutted the kitchen fixtures, took Hampton Bay units, discarded the plastic light-shields, and with a bit of trimming, convinced the base plates (which holds the power supply, LEDs, etc) to fit into the existing fixtures. I'm now currently wanting to do my shop, and I'm looking for something which is a bit less work - tubes that I simply plug in, or something like that, are what I'm looking for! Noel From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Mar 7 13:42:32 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:42:32 -0800 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) In-Reply-To: <17a185b.48ca8260.45f05e3d@aol.com> References: <17a185b.48ca8260.45f05e3d@aol.com> Message-ID: <704b1fa8-00cc-5f1f-28fb-663f8491e478@jwsss.com> On 3/7/2017 11:04 AM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > we had tubes with LEDs in them... took old florescent tube out of > fixture.. twisted in the thing with the LEDs in it that hacked wight into > the lighting fixture and done! Ed# > I've asked about those and have no sources of such. They do have to work thru ballasts and deal with starter issues that are no longer relevant, unless you remove and rewire the ballasts / starters out of the old fixtures. The things I've seen are the same form factor as a 4' dual tube dual 40 watt fixture with 110 in and light out. Pull and toss an old dual tube fixture and replace with new LED. But I've not seen the tube solution. I've got a couple of spots the tube thing would be desirable, but no source of such. If you do have a source I'd be interested. thanks Jim From lists at loomcom.com Tue Mar 7 13:48:45 2017 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 13:48:45 -0600 Subject: 3B2 stuff-maybe In-Reply-To: <032b01d29765$76532fe0$62f98fa0$@com> References: <032b01d29765$76532fe0$62f98fa0$@com> Message-ID: <20170307194845.GA1992@loomcom.com> * On Tue, Mar 07, 2017 at 11:08:37AM -0600, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > I called the only place I know of that supported 3B2 stuff, which is > Communications Hardware in TX. They recently had a change in technicians, > and a lot of the older stuff they no longer support got culled, but they are > willing to look for boards, drives, or whatever would help the collectors > get their machines up and running again. I described the documentation set > to them, and they will look for it. Any parts you want, send me a list, and > they will hunt for me. Thanks Cindy, I hope they turn up some reference manuals or schematics. I guess if any place would have them, it would be a place that supported the hardware. -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 7 16:09:19 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 22:09:19 -0000 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) In-Reply-To: <704b1fa8-00cc-5f1f-28fb-663f8491e478@jwsss.com> References: <17a185b.48ca8260.45f05e3d@aol.com> <704b1fa8-00cc-5f1f-28fb-663f8491e478@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <007a01d2978f$77fecaf0$67fc60d0$@outlook.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim > stephens via cctalk > Sent: 07 March 2017 19:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) > > > > On 3/7/2017 11:04 AM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > > we had tubes with LEDs in them... took old florescent tube out of > > fixture.. twisted in the thing with the LEDs in it that hacked > > wight into the lighting fixture and done! Ed# > > > I've asked about those and have no sources of such. They do have to work > thru ballasts and deal with starter issues that are no longer relevant, unless > you remove and rewire the ballasts / starters out of the old fixtur > > The things I've seen are the same form factor as a 4' dual tube dual 40 watt > fixture with 110 in and light out. Pull and toss an old dual tube fixture and > replace with new LED. But I've not seen the tube solution. > I've got a couple of spots the tube thing would be desirable, but no source of > such. If you do have a source I'd be interested. > > thanks > Jim I have just replaced two tubes in my shack with LED tubes. They came with "dummy" starters, went straight into the existing fittings. I am on 240v rather than 110v but GE seems to make similar devices for the USA... Dave From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Mar 7 20:23:42 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:23:42 -0600 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20170308022342.GC67963@gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 07, 2017, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 2:48 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > And cctalk at ... is neither responsible for the writing of the message nor > > does it belong to the author of the message. But replies should be directed > > there, so there should be a Reply-To: field containing cctalk at ... and the > > From: field should contain the author's address. > > > > And thus we come full circle. The "From:" header containing the original > author's address is the cause of the unsubscribes due to bounces, and (I > assume) the motivation for the recent change to the list behavior. > > The problem is that major production MTAs will reject (bounce) email with a > "From:" whose domain uses DKIM or SPF, when the sending MTA isn't in the > DKIM or SPF authorized sender list. This will almost always be true when > messages are forwarded by a mailing list. Since the bounces go back to the > mailing list, the mailing list software then drops the entirely legitimate > list subscriber's subscription. :-( > > The behavior you describe is certainly correct according to the RFCs, but > unfortunately now falls apart in practice. :-( What makes it so that other mailing lists don't unsubscribe people when bounces occur? -- Eric Christopherson From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 7 20:38:43 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:38:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <20170308022342.GC67963@gmail.com> References: <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20170308022342.GC67963@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Mar 2017, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > What makes it so that other mailing lists don't unsubscribe people when > bounces occur? This list displays (not "full headers"): Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:23:42 -0600 From: Eric Christopherson via cctalk Reply-To: Eric Christopherson , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: I hate the new mail system Some yahoos would do it as: Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:23:42 -0600 From: "Eric Christopherson echristopherson at gmail.com [cctalk]" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: I hate the new mail system Notice, that they also munge the From:, but they include the author's email address buried within the munged From:. It is not the "correct" From: and Reply-to:, but, apparently some "modern" systems will not tolerate it done "correctly". Given that it is NOT going to be done "correctly", which among us are capable of successfully working around it? This discussion is a little like a pedantic grammar argument. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Mar 7 20:53:14 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 22:53:14 -0400 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <4e4fccd0-11da-f500-eacc-227622773fa1@gmail.com> References: <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20170308022342.GC67963@gmail.com> <4e4fccd0-11da-f500-eacc-227622773fa1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2017-03-07 10:45 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > > > On 2017-03-07 10:38 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 7 Mar 2017, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: >>> What makes it so that other mailing lists don't unsubscribe people when >>> bounces occur? >> >> This list displays (not "full headers"): >> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:23:42 -0600 >> From: Eric Christopherson via cctalk >> Reply-To: Eric Christopherson , >> "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: Re: I hate the new mail system >> >> >> Some yahoos would do it as: >> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:23:42 -0600 >> From: "Eric Christopherson echristopherson at gmail.com [cctalk]" >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: Re: I hate the new mail system >> >> >> Notice, that they also munge the From:, but they include the author's >> email address buried within the munged From:. >> >> It is not the "correct" From: and Reply-to:, >> but, apparently some "modern" systems will not tolerate it done >> "correctly". >> Given that it is NOT going to be done "correctly", which among us are >> capable of successfully working around it? > Well in Thunderbird I get two reply buttons "Reply" and "Reply to list" >> >> This discussion is a little like a pedantic grammar argument. >> >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Oppps I never meant to send that..... Paul. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Mar 7 20:54:30 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 20:54:30 -0600 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) In-Reply-To: <17a185b.48ca8260.45f05e3d@aol.com> References: <17a185b.48ca8260.45f05e3d@aol.com> Message-ID: <58BF7266.3070801@pico-systems.com> On 03/07/2017 01:04 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > we had tubes with LEDs in them... took old florescent tube out of > fixture.. twisted in the thing with the LEDs in it that hacked wight into > the lighting fixture and done! Ed# > We had hideous 30-year old magnetic ballasts in the kitchen. A 2-tube 48" fixture consumed 103 W. So, I really wanted to get those ballasts out of the system. The new system with commercial LED lighting power supply uses 21 W. The light output seems to be about the same. Jon From spc at conman.org Tue Mar 7 20:58:40 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 21:58:40 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20170308022342.GC67963@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170308025840.GA30036@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated: > On Tue, 7 Mar 2017, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > >What makes it so that other mailing lists don't unsubscribe people when > >bounces occur? > > This list displays (not "full headers"): > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:23:42 -0600 > From: Eric Christopherson via cctalk > Reply-To: Eric Christopherson , > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: I hate the new mail system > > > Some yahoos would do it as: > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:23:42 -0600 > From: "Eric Christopherson echristopherson at gmail.com [cctalk]" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: I hate the new mail system > > > Notice, that they also munge the From:, but they include the author's > email address buried within the munged From:. > > It is not the "correct" From: and Reply-to:, > but, apparently some "modern" systems will not tolerate it done > "correctly". > Given that it is NOT going to be done "correctly", which among us are > capable of successfully working around it? > > This discussion is a little like a pedantic grammar argument. Well, RFC-5322 allows a mailbox-list in the From: header, and an address-list for the Reply-To:, I don't think this is illegal. And I just noticed this RFC: 6854 Update to Internet Message Format to Allow Group Syntax in the "From:" and "Sender:" Header Fields. B. Leiba. March 2013. (Format: TXT=20190 bytes) (Updates RFC5322) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC6854) Given that, I think adding to the Reply-To: header is kosher now. -spc (Hmm ... looks like I have to update my email parser ... ) From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Mar 7 17:42:42 2017 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 23:42:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: MIPS I-IV instruction set standards In-Reply-To: <20170228065933.GA43098@indra.papnet.eu> References: <20170228065933.GA43098@indra.papnet.eu> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Feb 2017, Angelo Papenhoff via cctech wrote: > I'm wondering where the MIPS I-IV standards that are referenced > everywhere are defined. I was able to actually find what seems to be the > IV standard [1] but found no such thing for I-III. I didn't even find > any bibliographic references to them. Did they only exist as printed > books and nobody bothered to scan them? Or are they under copyright? > Would be nice to have them accessible somewhere. > > [1] > http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15740-f97/public/doc/mips-isa.pdf A differently formatted copy of the same document used to be available at though `techpubs.sgi.com' has been recently taken offline I'm told (and I haven't checked if `archive.org' has a copy). In either version of the document you can see how the ISA has progressed in the opcode tables towards the end of each appendix; this might be the best original ISA reference readily available. As to the earlier ISA levels I believe their definitions were only buried as parts of the respective MIPSCO processor manuals, i.e. the R2000/R3000, the R6000 and the R4000/R4400. The latter is available online in several places; originally at and . The final version of the R6000 manual may not have been made. A very early revision was found and has been scanned and published at as tarballs of TIFF images (I have made a PDF conversion and placed the result at ). It is inaccurate and lacks opcode encodings. I have seen a copy of the original R2000 manual once, in the form of a collection of pages in a ring binder. That copy may have been lost since. Silicon manufacturers like IDT, LSI Logic, Performance Semiconductor or Siemens published their R2000/R3000 (and R2010/R3010 FPA) implementation manuals though that may serve as a reference; you should be able to track down scanned copies online. HTH, Maciej From rob at bitscience.ca Tue Mar 7 18:50:52 2017 From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 16:50:52 -0800 Subject: MIPS I-IV instruction set standards In-Reply-To: References: <20170228065933.GA43098@indra.papnet.eu> Message-ID: > On Mar 7, 2017, at 3:42 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctech wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Feb 2017, Angelo Papenhoff via cctech wrote: > >> I'm wondering where the MIPS I-IV standards that are referenced >> everywhere are defined. I was able to actually find what seems to be the >> IV standard [1] but found no such thing for I-III. I didn't even find >> any bibliographic references to them. Did they only exist as printed >> books and nobody bothered to scan them? Or are they under copyright? >> Would be nice to have them accessible somewhere. >> >> [1] >> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15740-f97/public/doc/mips-isa.pdf > > < snip > > I have seen a copy of the original R2000 manual once, in the form of a > collection of pages in a ring binder. That copy may have been lost since. > Silicon manufacturers like IDT, LSI Logic, Performance Semiconductor or > Siemens published their R2000/R3000 (and R2010/R3010 FPA) implementation > manuals though that may serve as a reference; you should be able to track > down scanned copies online. The book ?MIPS RISC Architecture? by Gerry Kane (ISBN 0-13-584293-X), copyright 1989 by MIPS Computer Systems, has the following blurb as the preface: ?This book is a comprehensive reference for the MIPS RISC architecture. It describes the functional characteristics and capabilities of the R2000/R3000 Processors and the R2010/R3020 floating point accelerators.? I suspect this is as close to a publicly available architecture reference that exists for that generation of MIPS processors. - Rob From bulk at blit.ca Tue Mar 7 22:10:40 2017 From: bulk at blit.ca (Chris Reuter) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 23:10:40 -0500 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware Message-ID: I have some NeXT hardware that I'm looking to re-home. Items include: 1 NeXT cube with an unknown expansion card 2 Monochrome monitors 2 NeXTStation "slab" workstations, non-functional Boxed NeXTStep installation media with manuals (may not be complete) 2 Mice, 3 keyboards, various cables, SCSI drives, odds and ends. (Picture at ; the fruit is not included.) I'm located in Toronto; preference will be given to anyone who is willing to come here and haul it away. I *may* be willing to ship it somewhere, but if so, you're paying for it and it can't cause me a lot of hassle. Everything is believed to work unless marked otherwise; however, it's been years since I powered up any of these so I can't promise anything. The monitors both worked when I last tried them. One had succumbed to the dimness problem but the other was still bright, if blurry. Presumably, you could swap CRTs and have one like-new NeXT monochrome monitor. One of the two slabs would get partway through its boot sequence before hanging so it might be easily fixable. The other one was stripped for parts before I got it. The Cube worked the last time I tried it. I did, however, try to add a second drive, which didn't work. This may have screwed up the SCSI termination. My preferred contact email is . --Chris -- Chris Reuter http://www.blit.ca "I used to be able to count to 1023 on my fingers in two minutes, but then I got better." --Eb Oesch, <903f6dfe.0303242039.1f9e65b6 at posting.google.com> From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Mar 7 23:51:25 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 00:51:25 -0500 Subject: Fluorescent lights (Was: Full immersion emulation) Message-ID: have no idea... wife bought them at home depot they were not cheap but just twisted ino fixture and done. I am going to do dame in some of the rooms at SMECC museum too. I like a simple fix and this was! In a message dated 3/7/2017 12:43:24 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 3/7/2017 11:04 AM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > we had tubes with LEDs in them... took old florescent tube out of > fixture.. twisted in the thing with the LEDs in it that hacked wight into > the lighting fixture and done! Ed# > I've asked about those and have no sources of such. They do have to work thru ballasts and deal with starter issues that are no longer relevant, unless you remove and rewire the ballasts / starters out of the old fixtures. The things I've seen are the same form factor as a 4' dual tube dual 40 watt fixture with 110 in and light out. Pull and toss an old dual tube fixture and replace with new LED. But I've not seen the tube solution. I've got a couple of spots the tube thing would be desirable, but no source of such. If you do have a source I'd be interested. thanks Jim From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Mar 8 01:11:57 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 08:11:57 +0100 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 7 March 2017 at 15:57, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 07/03/2017 13:47, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Tue, 7 Mar 2017, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> >>> No, Mouse is right, it's broken: >> >> >> Works for me (also from different networks outside the university >> network): > > > Interesting... I still get the same errors. Could it be location-dependant > in some way? Are you using the standard whois port 43/TCP? I tested 'whois -h whois.denic.de uni-stuttgart.de' from Oslo, London, Tokyo, and it seems to work fine - I got all expected whois output. Tested yesterday too. Sounds like it may be the whois client instead - what OS are you guys using, and which 'whois' version? I'm using various Linux distros. From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Mar 8 10:06:03 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:06:03 +0000 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2017, at 10:10 PM, Chris Reuter via cctalk wrote: > > I have some NeXT hardware that I'm looking to re-home. Items include: > > 1 NeXT cube with an unknown expansion card One reasonable candidate would be a NeXTDimension video card. Connectors on mine, from the top: 1) DE-9 2) DIN 3) RCA 4) DIN 5) RCA 6) RCA (large space) 7) video, with coax imbedded among other connectors in a D shell - 13W3, I think. If true, this is a reasonably valuable card. However it would make sense for there to be a color monitor (Sun or NeXT or similar) somewhere nearby if that?s what this is. > 2 Mice, 3 keyboards, various cables, SCSI drives, odds and ends. Those all look to me like the original non-ADB keyboards and mice > The monitors both worked when I last tried them. One had succumbed to > the dimness problem but the other was still bright, if blurry. > Presumably, you could swap CRTs and have one like-new NeXT monochrome > monitor. ?Blurry?, in my experience, often clears up after 12-24 hours of running. It may be worthwhile to power it up and leave it that way for a day or so to see whether this works for you as well. I truly hope someone saves these! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Mar 8 12:46:23 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 18:46:23 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 08/03/2017 07:11, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: > I tested 'whois -h whois.denic.de uni-stuttgart.de' > from Oslo, London, Tokyo, and it seems to work fine - I got all > expected whois output. Tested yesterday too. > Sounds like it may be the whois client instead - what OS are you guys > using, and which 'whois' version? This is rather intriguing. No, not the fault of the whois client. I repeated yesterday's tests and a few more because I'd closed the terminal windows I used yesterday, and also to try to eliminate any temporary aberrations. I did wonder if whois.denic.de is actually a load-balanced server farm and I just happened to be hitting a broken member of the farm and some of you guys weren't. But that does not seem to be the case. FWIW I was using linux whois-4.5.17 originally from www.linux.it, based on the RIPE whois client, compiled locally from source under IRIX. It's part of various Linux distributions and it works on hundreds of other whois servers; I use it frequently (part of my job) and never had a problem before. That's important because when I eventually found the "DENIC Public-Whois Documentation" I noted that it recommends the RIPE whois client. So just to be thorough I downloaded and compiled the latest RIPE whois on an Ubuntu Linux system and get a similar result with a standard query. I also downloaded and tested Microsoft's whois for Windows and got the same broken result, same "Error: 55000000007 Request not clearly specified" message. More importantly, I tested connecting directly using telnet to port 43, exactly as specified in RFCs 3912 and 954. Here it is again, showing the output of the (required) HELP command: $ telnet whois.denic.de 43 Trying 81.91.170.6... Connected to whois.denic.de. Escape character is '^]'. ? % SYNTAX: whois [-r] [-T types] [-C charset] key % % where our server understands the following options: % % -r turn off recursive lookups (default: on) % -T ace ACE input for domain lookup % -T domain (dn) only look for objects of type domain % -T status (st) only look for domain status % -C charset specify character set for the input/output % Available charsets: US-ASCII, ISO-8859-1, UTF-8 (default) % % NOTE: Read the detailed documentation for valid argument combinations. There are two special queries % % [?, HELP, help] displays this text % alive at whois returns 'alive' if whois server runs properly % % Detailed documentation under https://www.denic.de/webwhois/?lang=en % Connection closed by foreign host. $ Notice that - unlike normal whois servers - this one apparently requires some other stuff, possibly including the text "whois", as part of the query. That may explain why a normal whois client gets an error, because the standard way to make a query is simply to send the string to query (eg, "uni-stuttgart.de" or "dunnington.cx"): $ whois -h whois.denic.de uni-stuttgart.de % Error: 55000000007 Request not clearly specified OK, so back to telnet, and try it with the syntax DENIC claims to want: $ telnet whois.denic.de 43 Trying 81.91.170.6... Connected to whois.denic.de. Escape character is '^]'. -T dn uni-stuttgart.de [lots of output] $ Aha! That works. But I can't replicate it with most whois clients. However, it /does/ work with the jwhois client, which some linux systems have, and which seems to have some special method to deal with DENIC. It doesn't work with the RIPE client - despite DENIC recommending that - unless you construct a rather odd-looking query by adding at least "--T dn": gleek:whois3-3.2.2 $ ./whois -h whois.denic.de uni-stuttgart.de Domain: uni-stuttgart.de Status: connect gleek:whois3-3.2.2 $ gleek:whois3-3.2.2 $ ./whois -h whois.denic.de --T dn uni-stuttgart.de [lots of output] gleek:whois3-3.2.2 $ So IMHO it's broken; it doesn't respond to a standard query format as defined in the RFCs, but only to a modified query string, one which some perfectly good clients can't correctly format. Just for comparison, I also tested the RIPE client, Microsoft client, and telnet with some .co.uk, .ac.uk, .com, .cn and .cx domains using several whois servers, and found a standard query worked every time. Obviously that's not exhaustive but so far whois.denic.de is the only one I've found with this odd behaviour. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From bulk at blit.ca Wed Mar 8 13:09:28 2017 From: bulk at blit.ca (bulk at blit.ca) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 14:09:28 -0500 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4330b2ab7c5beb0228a3bdb57d201632@blit.ca> On 2017-03-08 11:06, Tapley, Mark wrote: > On Mar 7, 2017, at 10:10 PM, Chris Reuter via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> I have some NeXT hardware that I'm looking to re-home. Items include: >> >> 1 NeXT cube with an unknown expansion card > > One reasonable candidate would be a NeXTDimension video card. It's been a long time since I had the Cube open so this is from memory. However, I'm reasonably sure that this was based off a NeXT card (whose name escapes me) that was half bus interface and half prototype board so that you could build one-off interfaces. I originally bought the Cube as surplus from the University of Waterloo, so I'm guessing that it's an interface to some piece of lab equipment. Here's a slightly blurry picture of the Cube's back: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0Sme9n3mG2UYUxuVWZ2eXhfS2M/view The Mystery Board occupies the leftmost slot (IIRC). --Chris From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Mar 8 13:22:08 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 19:22:08 +0000 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: <4330b2ab7c5beb0228a3bdb57d201632@blit.ca> References: <4330b2ab7c5beb0228a3bdb57d201632@blit.ca> Message-ID: <3C94D8A5-42A7-417F-BE78-C2CD94E09589@swri.edu> On Mar 8, 2017, at 1:09 PM, wrote: > It's been a long time since I had the Cube open so this is from memory. However, I'm reasonably sure that this was based off a NeXT card (whose name escapes me) that was half bus interface and half prototype board so that you could build one-off interfaces. I originally bought the Cube as surplus from the University of Waterloo, so I'm guessing that it's an interface to some piece of lab equipment. > > Here's a slightly blurry picture of the Cube's back: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0Sme9n3mG2UYUxuVWZ2eXhfS2M/view > > The Mystery Board occupies the leftmost slot (IIRC). Now that is interesting! I concur completely, this does not look anything like my NeXTDimension. But it looks from the outside as though you have not one but two boards on the left side. My cube originally had only the board on the right of your picture (and in that same location). Unless there are internal connections between the two slots on the left side, you may have two Mystery Boards. Very neat! I hope we get to hear more about this system eventually. - Mark From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Wed Mar 8 13:28:44 2017 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 14:28:44 -0500 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: <3C94D8A5-42A7-417F-BE78-C2CD94E09589@swri.edu> References: <4330b2ab7c5beb0228a3bdb57d201632@blit.ca> <3C94D8A5-42A7-417F-BE78-C2CD94E09589@swri.edu> Message-ID: Hi Mark, I have reached out to Chris (I am local) and will providing a new home for the lot. I will be happy to take hi-res pics of the board when I get them over the weekend. Santo On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mar 8, 2017, at 1:09 PM, wrote: > > > It's been a long time since I had the Cube open so this is from memory. > However, I'm reasonably sure that this was based off a NeXT card (whose > name escapes me) that was half bus interface and half prototype board so > that you could build one-off interfaces. I originally bought the Cube as > surplus from the University of Waterloo, so I'm guessing that it's an > interface to some piece of lab equipment. > > > > Here's a slightly blurry picture of the Cube's back: > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0Sme9n3mG2UYUxuVWZ2eXhfS2M/view > > > > The Mystery Board occupies the leftmost slot (IIRC). > > Now that is interesting! I concur completely, this does not look > anything like my NeXTDimension. But it looks from the outside as though you > have not one but two boards on the left side. My cube originally had only > the board on the right of your picture (and in that same location). Unless > there are internal connections between the two slots on the left side, you > may have two Mystery Boards. > > Very neat! I hope we get to hear more about this system eventually. > - Mark > > From wrm at dW.co.za Wed Mar 8 11:14:56 2017 From: wrm at dW.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 19:14:56 +0200 Subject: Oki 3305 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20170308191153.07194430@mort.dw.co.za> Hi all I have a couple of Oki 3305BU 1/3 height 5 1/4" drives. On startup the motor spins and the heads load, but the heads don't move. Also, my BIOS tells me I have a drive failure. On taking them apart for a bit of a lube I noticed they have EPROM 8748s inside. Could this be the problem, EPROMs lost data? This would be a first for me, I have EPROMs from the seventies which are still fine. Anybody familiar with these drives? Thanks W From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Mar 8 11:45:12 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:45:12 -0800 Subject: Just seen on Reddit S/34 Message-ID: https://www.reddit.com/r/computercollecting/comments/5pohwr/a_rare_find_in_pottstown_unsure_if_in_working/ From j_hoppe at t-online.de Wed Mar 8 12:26:44 2017 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 19:26:44 +0100 Subject: RT-11 5.x install tapes? Message-ID: <05afac7b-38b8-e795-9f42-36815df1ce3b@t-online.de> Hi all, for work on TU58 emulator "tu58fs" I'd like to experiment with oversized tape images under RT-11 5.5, 5.6 and 5.7. The images I know about are the classiccmp collections, Earl Evans pointed me to the RT11DV50.ISO archive. However, in these images the TU58 driver files DD.MAC/DD.SYS/DDX.SYS are mostly missing. Strange, because they claim to be pristine. Somebody knows about original RT-11 V5 installation tape images? Thanks, Joerg From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Mar 8 14:50:58 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 20:50:58 +0000 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4330b2ab7c5beb0228a3bdb57d201632@blit.ca> <3C94D8A5-42A7-417F-BE78-C2CD94E09589@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2017, at 1:28 PM, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Hi Mark, > > I have reached out to Chris (I am local) and will providing a new home for the lot. I will be happy to take hi-res pics of the board when I get them over the weekend. > > Santo Santo, that?s great! Wonderful to hear they are going to a good home. I will try to pass on the photos to http://www.nextcomputers.org if that?s OK with you, or you can do so directly. That seems to be one of the biggest active repositories of NeXT information. If you want to get them running, there is also a lot of useful information in the forum area on the same site, including pretty detailed steps on how to implement a SCSI2SD or other hard drives. Some of that may be helpful with the cube as well. - Mark From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Wed Mar 8 15:07:00 2017 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:07:00 -0500 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4330b2ab7c5beb0228a3bdb57d201632@blit.ca> <3C94D8A5-42A7-417F-BE78-C2CD94E09589@swri.edu> Message-ID: Hi Mark, Works for me or I can post. I am "snuci" on http://www.nextcomputers.org and have been a member for a little while. I have a couple of NeXTs already including only one that I've put on my site at http://vintagecomputer.ca/next-dimension-cube-turbo One of these will go to a friend who has a small collection and is new to NeXT so we'll have another potential member soon :) For the record, that blog post is old. I have the Cube working with dual monitors and have no issues with that one at all. Santo On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > On Mar 8, 2017, at 1:28 PM, Santo Nucifora > wrote: > > > Hi Mark, > > > > I have reached out to Chris (I am local) and will providing a new home > for the lot. I will be happy to take hi-res pics of the board when I get > them over the weekend. > > > > Santo > > Santo, > that?s great! Wonderful to hear they are going to a good home. > I will try to pass on the photos to > > http://www.nextcomputers.org > > if that?s OK with you, or you can do so directly. That seems to be > one of the biggest active repositories of NeXT information. > If you want to get them running, there is also a lot of useful > information in the forum area on the same site, including pretty detailed > steps on how to implement a SCSI2SD or other hard drives. Some of that may > be helpful with the cube as well. > - Mark > > From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Mar 8 14:25:31 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 15:25:31 -0500 Subject: Just seen on Reddit S/34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3955ef3f-32a4-466b-0cb8-ea275547b8b5@snarc.net> > https://www.reddit.com/r/computercollecting/comments/5pohwr/a_rare_find_in_pottstown_unsure_if_in_working/ That one has been available for several years. People who've seen it in person said it is beat to < censored >. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Mar 8 15:16:27 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:16:27 -0500 Subject: NeXT in Toronto/Canada - was Re: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4330b2ab7c5beb0228a3bdb57d201632@blit.ca> <3C94D8A5-42A7-417F-BE78-C2CD94E09589@swri.edu> Message-ID: On 2017-03-08 4:07 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Works for me or I can post. I am "snuci" on http://www.nextcomputers.org > and have been a member for a little while. I have a couple of NeXTs > already including only one that I've put on my site at Hi Santo I'm also a Cube owner in Toronto. Maybe we should start a local collector's / user's group :D Any others care to speak up? --Toby > http://vintagecomputer.ca/next-dimension-cube-turbo One of these will go > to a friend who has a small collection and is new to NeXT so we'll have > another potential member soon :) For the record, that blog post is old. I > have the Cube working with dual monitors and have no issues with that one > at all. > > Santo > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 8 15:22:10 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 14:22:10 -0700 Subject: NeXT in Toronto/Canada - was Re: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4330b2ab7c5beb0228a3bdb57d201632@blit.ca> <3C94D8A5-42A7-417F-BE78-C2CD94E09589@swri.edu> Message-ID: On 3/8/2017 2:16 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2017-03-08 4:07 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: >> Hi Mark, >> >> Works for me or I can post. I am "snuci" on http://www.nextcomputers.org >> and have been a member for a little while. I have a couple of NeXTs >> already including only one that I've put on my site at > > Hi Santo > > I'm also a Cube owner in Toronto. Maybe we should start a local > collector's / user's group :D > > Any others care to speak up? > > --Toby APPLE of the BORG ... All CUBES are US. :) Ben. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Mar 8 17:50:24 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 18:50:24 -0500 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware Message-ID: <188d02e.5eaebc20.45f1f2c0@aol.com> we may some parts pieces maybe when we stage our next cube... who knows might pop up and work by it self.. let me know what you are not going to used there. thx Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 3/8/2017 2:07:11 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Hi Mark, Works for me or I can post. I am "snuci" on http://www.nextcomputers.org and have been a member for a little while. I have a couple of NeXTs already including only one that I've put on my site at http://vintagecomputer.ca/next-dimension-cube-turbo One of these will go to a friend who has a small collection and is new to NeXT so we'll have another potential member soon :) For the record, that blog post is old. I have the Cube working with dual monitors and have no issues with that one at all. Santo On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > On Mar 8, 2017, at 1:28 PM, Santo Nucifora > wrote: > > > Hi Mark, > > > > I have reached out to Chris (I am local) and will providing a new home > for the lot. I will be happy to take hi-res pics of the board when I get > them over the weekend. > > > > Santo > > Santo, > that?s great! Wonderful to hear they are going to a good home. > I will try to pass on the photos to > > http://www.nextcomputers.org > > if that?s OK with you, or you can do so directly. That seems to be > one of the biggest active repositories of NeXT information. > If you want to get them running, there is also a lot of useful > information in the forum area on the same site, including pretty detailed > steps on how to implement a SCSI2SD or other hard drives. Some of that may > be helpful with the cube as well. > - Mark > > From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Mar 8 18:21:12 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 00:21:12 +0000 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: <188d02e.5eaebc20.45f1f2c0@aol.com> References: <188d02e.5eaebc20.45f1f2c0@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 15:50 Ed wrote: > we may some parts pieces maybe when we stage our next cube... > > who knows might pop up and work by it self.. > > let me know what you are not going to used there. > thx Ed# > _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) Is someone testing a Markov chainer on the list? If so, you have some more work to do... -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 8 21:01:32 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 22:01:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: NeXT in Toronto/Canada - was Re: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4330b2ab7c5beb0228a3bdb57d201632@blit.ca> <3C94D8A5-42A7-417F-BE78-C2CD94E09589@swri.edu> Message-ID: <201703090301.WAA29375@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm also a Cube owner in Toronto. Maybe we should start a local > collector's / user's group :D > Any others care to speak up? I'm in Ottawa. I've got a - very small! - collection of NeXT hardware. A slab or two, at least one megapixel display (the 2bpp greyscale kind), some small number of keyboards, a mouse or two, that's probably about it. I gave away my Cube years back. I've been tempted to get rid of them, but feel sentimental enough about having developed MouseX that I've so far avoided doing so. Also, I've been holding out the (admittedly slight) hope that hardware documentation will surface for the interesting hardware; I do not run closed-source software, so that's important to me. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Mar 9 01:25:42 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 08:25:42 +0100 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 8 March 2017 at 19:46, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Notice that - unlike normal whois servers - this one apparently requires > some other stuff, possibly including the text "whois", as part of the query. > That may explain why a normal whois client gets an error, because the > standard way to make a query is simply to send the string to query (eg, > "uni-stuttgart.de" or "dunnington.cx"): > > $ whois -h whois.denic.de uni-stuttgart.de > % Error: 55000000007 Request not clearly specified > > OK, so back to telnet, and try it with the syntax DENIC claims to want: > > $ telnet whois.denic.de 43 > Trying 81.91.170.6... > Connected to whois.denic.de. > Escape character is '^]'. > -T dn uni-stuttgart.de > [lots of output] > $ > > Aha! That works. But I can't replicate it with most whois clients. > > However, it /does/ work with the jwhois client, which some linux systems > have, and which seems to have some special method to deal with DENIC. It > doesn't work with the RIPE client - despite DENIC recommending that - unless > you construct a rather odd-looking query by adding at least "--T dn": [..] > Pete Turnbull I did an strace and I can confirm that the Linux 'whois' client that I used from those various sites sends '-T dn' (or actually -T dn,ace) write(3, "-T dn,ace uni-stuttgart.de\r\n", 28) = 28 I can't see where this whois originates from, it has version number '5.2.'. Its man page refers to RFC 3912, but RFC 3912 says nothing about -T. RFC 3912's single example wouldn't have worked in this case. So I wonder what replaced RFC 3912, and why there's a mismatch between documentation and functionality. From dave at 661.org Fri Mar 10 09:34:07 2017 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:34:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: New HP42s clone almost available Message-ID: There's a Swiss guy who's made a name for himself by producing working replicas of classic HP calculators. See https://www.swissmicros.com/. I recently discovered his post on Youtube a video showing off an enhanced replica of my favorite HP calculator, the HP42s. This one is called the DM42. Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LK7JotR728 -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From scanning.cc70 at gmail.com Thu Mar 9 18:10:23 2017 From: scanning.cc70 at gmail.com (steven canning) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 16:10:23 -0800 Subject: FW: More 8085a oddities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry Adrian I feel like I'm coming in at the end of the movie here . My code pig ( software guy ) learned the hard way that you ALWAYS need to start 8085 code with an " F3 " (HEX ) DI disable interrupts command so that you can have all your ducks lined up before you get an Interrupt ( whether real or imagined ) otherwise you can jump to some weird a$$ address that will do something unwanted . Just a thought . Best regards , Steven On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 10:25 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi folks, > > I didn't see the message at the bottom of this one arrive since I think I > sent it JUST as the list software was being changed over. > > Gah, having just looked again I realise I've sent it from not the address > I've subbed with. PEBCAK there :) > > Since then I discovered the -5V rail for the 4116s had dropped to -4.2V > which was out of spec for both types of RAM on this box so on Chuck's > suggestion I swapped the 560ohm resistor/zener combo that was powering this > rail for a 79L05 regulator and the DRAMs now have all 3 voltages steady. > > No change in behaviour though. I'm baffled as to why the upper address bus > doesn't blip once RESET goes high. HOLD is permanently pulled low so it's > not that. > > Any suggestions? > > Cheers! > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: Adrian Graham > Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 23:34:50 +0000 > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Conversation: More 8085a oddities > Subject: More 8085a oddities > > Hi folks, > > After a few days break I came back to my 8085a-powered phone system this > weekend and it's decided to go on strike. By that I mean the processor > locks > up after only a few cycles so doesn't get as far as attempting to read > anything, when it freezes the S0/S1/WR status lines are all high which > shouldn't be possible since S0/S1 high should be 'Fetch' according to the > manual, not WRITE. > > Vcc, RESET and clock are good and I can't see any other external signal > which might hold the CPU. The PSU is good and putting out +5/+12/-12 as it > should. CPU checks out in another 8085 system I forgot I had. > > Interestingly my analyser shows the upper half of the address bus doesn't > change while the lower half manages a single transition, as does the ALE > signal. From the CPU both halves of the address bus go directly to a > 74LS373 > each which both check out OK on a breadboard circuit I made up earlier. > > ROMs are all OK and the lines themselves back to the LS373 and CPU check > out > with little resistance. > > I'm stumped and can't help but think this is something stupid which I'm > overlooking. Maybe more sleep will help. > > Cheers! > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Mar 9 21:00:43 2017 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 22:00:43 -0500 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation Message-ID: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> I'm trying to return to the computing days of yesteryear when people hooked graphics terminals to VAXes. I don't have a Tektronix graphics terminal but I do have a MicroVax II and a laptop running Debian Linux. Up to now I've been using the laptop as a console device and connecting to the Vax using minicom. I thought that the laptop would be a natural as a Tektronix type terminal. On the MicroVax I have just started with PGPLOT and MIIPS, which are scientific plotting packages that run on Vaxes. I would like to use the laptop to emulate a Tek terminal connected to the Vax through a serial port, but there doesn't seem to be anything available to do that. Does anyone know of such a thing? Doug From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Mar 9 10:38:43 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 11:38:43 -0500 Subject: Info Needed: DATARAM DR-111 PDP-11 Unibus 16KW Core Memory Message-ID: <20170309113843.b42a37e6ec67e04dcfa8553c@gmail.com> Looking for any information and/or documentation on DATARAM DR-111 (assembly 61101) 16Kx16 core memory boards for the Unibus. I've got four in unknown condition, one with a clearly destroyed 8T37. I have a large format scanner with ADF and can digitize print sets if necessary. Thanks, Jonathan From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Mar 9 20:56:53 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 02:56:53 +0000 Subject: Borrowing a ADF scanner near Orangeburg SC next week? Message-ID: I'm going on an archiving trip to preserve a deserving piece of computer history, but it turns out the scanner I'm borrowing is overweight and united will charge $100-200 to check it each way. Before I buy one off amazon, I wanted to see if anyone on the list was local and could let us borrow one Tuesday-Friday. Looking for a heavy duty, double sided ADF deal. Thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 9 10:39:22 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 17:39:22 +0100 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: <767b93ee-d067-cb49-dc66-22dd93a363ce@arachelian.com> References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> <767b93ee-d067-cb49-dc66-22dd93a363ce@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 9 March 2017 at 17:22, Ray Arachelian wrote: > > Now that the cat's out of the bag, how soon before you can tell your > smart TV "Dear CIA, I'm hungry, can you send over a pizza pls, k thx bye" :-D Or the XCKD version: https://xkcd.com/1807/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 9 07:20:06 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 14:20:06 +0100 Subject: 10x life size sculpture of a ZX Spectrum PCB Message-ID: Since, to my pleased surprise, this has been a runaway hit on Facebook, I thought I'd reshare it here. My friend Roger took a picture of this sculpture at the Jerwood Gallery in Hastings on the south coast of England: https://www.flickr.com/photos/25143643 at N07/32505083723 It's a piece called "A Mystery to Myself" by Keith Tyson. http://keithtyson.com/work/a-mystery-to-myself/ There are more pictures from this showing at a different galley: http://www.davidrisleygallery.com/exhibitions/keith-tyson2 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Mar 10 10:59:15 2017 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:59:15 -0600 Subject: New HP42s clone almost available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That looks quite nice. I wonder what the buttons actually feel like; that seems to be one thing that HP has been generally unable to recreate since the 42s and 48GX. Despite keeping my 49g+ in its leather case, one of the buttons managed to break from carrying it in my backpack years ago. I've never had that problem with my 32SII or 48G. Kyle From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Mar 10 11:10:14 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 12:10:14 -0500 Subject: Borrowing a ADF scanner near Orangeburg SC next week? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52c044fc-a37b-19d8-1931-8520dd1e1285@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-03-09 9:56 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > I'm going on an archiving trip to preserve a deserving piece of computer > history, but it turns out the scanner I'm borrowing is overweight and > united will charge $100-200 to check it each way. > > Before I buy one off amazon, I wanted to see if anyone on the list was > local and could let us borrow one Tuesday-Friday. > > Looking for a heavy duty, double sided ADF deal. Fwiw, Fujitsu Fi-4530 like I've got does 11x17" ADF or 11x17+" oversize (e.g. foldouts), it's fast, fairly compact, and weighs 18.7 lb. Recommended without hesitation for binders/documents. I have the USB version and I attest you can drive it from Windows 7+ with a bit of fiddling (though drivers are originally for XP I believe). http://www.fujitsu.com/us/products/computing/peripheral/scanners/product/eol/fi4530c/ No, you probably can't buy one from Amazon, but Fujitsu does have a newer range that you probably can. There are quite a few on US Ebay if you can BIN and ship quick enough... http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=fujitsu+4530&_sacat=0 --Toby > > Thanks, > > - Ian > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 9 03:50:01 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:50:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Mar 2017, Tor Arntsen wrote: > I did an strace and I can confirm that the Linux 'whois' client that I > used from those various sites sends '-T dn' (or actually -T dn,ace) > > write(3, "-T dn,ace uni-stuttgart.de\r\n", 28) = 28 > > I can't see where this whois originates from, it has version number > '5.2.'. Its man page refers to RFC 3912, but RFC 3912 says > nothing about -T. RFC 3912's single example wouldn't have worked in > this case. So I wonder what replaced RFC 3912, and why there's a > mismatch between documentation and functionality. I did a little research on that: The '-T' option is passed to the whois server, it's not a client option. Intelligent or modern clients know what options to pass to the appropriate server, in this case '-T dn' to the DENIC whois server. This option is completely legal and was introduced at DENIC in an attempt to better protect the domain holder's privacy (you know, different country, different rules). This was many years ago, but it's still there. RFC 3912 doesn't specify what output the whois server is supposed to send. Everybody "assumes" that it should be the complete domain information, but that's simply not the case. Imposing this assumption is what Mouse does, and that is wrong. Heck, I could even have a whois server that tells me the current weather forecast for a specific request ;-) It is a minimalistic directory service, nothing more. Christian From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 9 09:10:23 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 16:10:23 +0100 Subject: Tape reel data recovery from MERA-400 polish computer Message-ID: http://museo.freaknet.org/en/recupero-dati-nastri-magnetici-del-computer-polacco-mera-400/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Mar 9 11:55:34 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 11:55:34 -0600 Subject: LMI Lambda - Software this time Message-ID: <23ABAEAC-A985-4FC1-BF85-E33489F0CA83@lunar-tokyo.net> Great progress has been made in running the Lambda firmware and diagnostics. A way has been found to structure things such that the emulator is releasable without infringing on anyone?s copyrights. Now what we need is software tapes, specifically a Lisp distribution tape of any version. If anyone has any tapes in any condition, or knows someone who might have something, please ask them to consider imaging their tapes, or having them imaged. If you have images of anything that aren?t the images already on bitsavers, I would love to hear from you. Even partial or corrupt images are potentially useful. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 9 06:08:13 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 13:08:13 +0100 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: References: <188d02e.5eaebc20.45f1f2c0@aol.com> Message-ID: On 9 March 2017 at 01:21, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > Is someone testing a Markov chainer on the list? If so, you have some more > work to do... It would explain the resolute & total failure of our efforts to explain top-quoting to him. Er, to it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From ray at arachelian.com Thu Mar 9 10:22:58 2017 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 11:22:58 -0500 Subject: Full immersion emulation In-Reply-To: References: <03619753-f8df-8cc6-c3a0-ceb390fd1db6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <767b93ee-d067-cb49-dc66-22dd93a363ce@arachelian.com> On 03/02/2017 08:30 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > A short list of shipping products that do that: > > Amazon Echo > https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01GAGVIE4/ > > Google Home > https://madeby.google.com/home/ > > Microsoft Cortana > https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/cortana > Now that the cat's out of the bag, how soon before you can tell your smart TV "Dear CIA, I'm hungry, can you send over a pizza pls, k thx bye" From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Mar 10 00:54:32 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 06:54:32 +0000 Subject: Borrowing a ADF scanner near Orangeburg SC next week? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Disregard. Purchased an Epson ES400. Fits in a carry on. Cute little thing. Expect many GRiD Compass OS docs soon. On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 18:56 Ian Finder wrote: > I'm going on an archiving trip to preserve a deserving piece of computer > history, but it turns out the scanner I'm borrowing is overweight and > united will charge $100-200 to check it each way. > > Before I buy one off amazon, I wanted to see if anyone on the list was > local and could let us borrow one Tuesday-Friday. > > Looking for a heavy duty, double sided ADF deal. > > Thanks, > > - Ian > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 9 04:24:05 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:24:05 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 09/03/2017 07:25, Tor Arntsen wrote: > I did an strace and I can confirm that the Linux 'whois' client that I > used from those various sites sends '-T dn' (or actually -T dn,ace) > > write(3, "-T dn,ace uni-stuttgart.de\r\n", 28) = 28 > > I can't see where this whois originates from, it has version number > '5.2.'. Its man page refers to RFC 3912, but RFC 3912 says > nothing about -T. RFC 3912's single example wouldn't have worked in > this case. So I wonder what replaced RFC 3912, and why there's a > mismatch between documentation and functionality. RFC 3912 is still the current RFC for whois; it's not been replaced. But there are two other related information systems, Rwhois (Referral whois, RFC1714, RFC2167) and whois++ (structured whois, RFC1835, RFC1913, RFC1914). They're more sophisticated, of course, but I don't know of any real-life examples and references I've found suggest they were never deployed. Rwhois runs on port 4321 by default and its syntax is nothing like that used by DENIC, while whois++ runs on port 63. Being an extension to provide structured responses to a range of template-based queries (it too can perform recursive queries on behalf of a client, like rwhois), its syntax also looks nothing like normal whois or that used by DENIC. However, one of the above-mentioned RFCs does comment, wrt whois, that "Unfortunately, these additions and extensions have been done in an ad hoc and uncoordinated manner." Uh-huh :-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Mar 10 11:14:55 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 17:14:55 +0000 Subject: 10x life size sculpture of a ZX Spectrum PCB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 09/03/2017 13:20, "Liam Proven via cctalk" wrote: > Since, to my pleased surprise, this has been a runaway hit on > Facebook, I thought I'd reshare it here. > > My friend Roger took a picture of this sculpture at the Jerwood > Gallery in Hastings on the south coast of England: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/25143643 at N07/32505083723 > > It's a piece called "A Mystery to Myself" by Keith Tyson. > > http://keithtyson.com/work/a-mystery-to-myself/ > > There are more pictures from this showing at a different galley: > > http://www.davidrisleygallery.com/exhibitions/keith-tyson2 Nice attention to detail there but who's going to tell him the wiring on his modulator looks odd :D -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 10 11:15:19 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:15:19 -0600 Subject: HP 9815A Message-ID: <009f01d299c1$e51a4e50$af4eeaf0$@classiccmp.org> Local electronics place has a HP 9815A for sale, the appearance from a 10 foot distance was "fair" or slightly less than fair condition. If someone is serious about it, let me know and I'll inquire further. J From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Mar 10 11:19:27 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 12:19:27 -0500 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware Message-ID: <142c247.1f8094c0.45f43a1e@aol.com> let me put my name back in the hat for the cube next computer... all the other stuff we have looks ok but appears like our cube may have met a baseball bat on part of it.... poor thing would not look good in a display. Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 3/10/2017 10:13:29 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 9 March 2017 at 01:21, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > Is someone testing a Markov chainer on the list? If so, you have some more > work to do... It would explain the resolute & total failure of our efforts to explain top-quoting to him. Er, to it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 10 11:59:42 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:59:42 -0800 Subject: Tape reel data recovery from MERA-400 polish computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b59f05d-1cc7-1d46-b234-4b9886cd03ce@bitsavers.org> This is fsckin cool. Chuck and I were wondering how it turned out. On 3/9/17 7:10 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > http://museo.freaknet.org/en/recupero-dati-nastri-magnetici-del-computer-polacco-mera-400/ > From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 10 12:02:21 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 12:02:21 -0600 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> References: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> Message-ID: <58C2EA2D.3050600@pico-systems.com> On 03/09/2017 09:00 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to return to the computing days of yesteryear > when people hooked graphics terminals to VAXes. > > I don't have a Tektronix graphics terminal but I do have a > MicroVax II and a laptop running Debian Linux. Up to now > I've been using the laptop as a console device and > connecting to the Vax using minicom. I thought that the > laptop would be a natural as a Tektronix type terminal. > > On the MicroVax I have just started with PGPLOT and MIIPS, > which are scientific plotting packages that run on Vaxes. > > I would like to use the laptop to emulate a Tek terminal > connected to the Vax through a serial port, but there > doesn't seem to be anything available to do that. Does > anyone know of such a thing Hmmm, seems to me the VCB01 and DecWindows would emulate a Tek terminal in the terminal window. I don't think you had to add any software to make that work. Also, seems a VT220 or a bunch of other terminals would do Tek 4010/4012 emulation. Lear Sigler ADM36, GraphOn come to mind. Jon From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 10 12:09:11 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 18:09:11 +0000 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> References: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> Message-ID: xterm will do your Tek 4014 emulation. There should be lots of Tek stuff in X11, they were one of the original consortium members. While you are fishing around for software to run, I have MOVIE.BYU from one of the guys here. ISSCO's DISPLA should be around, but I have not found it. Look on youtube, there are a bunch of of clips of folks doing just what you are about to do. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Douglas Taylor via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2017 7:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation I'm trying to return to the computing days of yesteryear when people hooked graphics terminals to VAXes. I don't have a Tektronix graphics terminal but I do have a MicroVax II and a laptop running Debian Linux. Up to now I've been using the laptop as a console device and connecting to the Vax using minicom. I thought that the laptop would be a natural as a Tektronix type terminal. On the MicroVax I have just started with PGPLOT and MIIPS, which are scientific plotting packages that run on Vaxes. I would like to use the laptop to emulate a Tek terminal connected to the Vax through a serial port, but there doesn't seem to be anything available to do that. Does anyone know of such a thing? Doug From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 9 22:52:50 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 20:52:50 -0800 Subject: RT-11 5.x install tapes? In-Reply-To: <05afac7b-38b8-e795-9f42-36815df1ce3b@t-online.de> References: <05afac7b-38b8-e795-9f42-36815df1ce3b@t-online.de> Message-ID: <5C1CF629-31E1-4BBD-93FD-BED30CE1648D@aracnet.com> I booted up RT-11 5.6, my install was done from original 5.6 floppies. I don?t find any sign of the DD driver, that could be because my /73 doesn?t have a TU58 drive, and I?m not sure where the floppies are right now. Booting 5.7 I find DD.MAC, my 5.7 install was from an original tape. Zane > On Mar 8, 2017, at 10:26 AM, J?rg Hoppe via cctech wrote: > > Hi all, > > for work on TU58 emulator "tu58fs" I'd like to experiment with oversized tape images under RT-11 5.5, 5.6 and 5.7. > The images I know about are the classiccmp collections, Earl Evans pointed me to the RT11DV50.ISO archive. > > However, in these images the TU58 driver files DD.MAC/DD.SYS/DDX.SYS are mostly missing. > Strange, because they claim to be pristine. > > Somebody knows about original RT-11 V5 installation tape images? > > Thanks, > Joerg > From admin at meiner.ch Fri Mar 10 01:24:42 2017 From: admin at meiner.ch (Martin Meiner) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 07:24:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Vintage Computer stuff on EBAY.DE References: <985986916.2634209.1489130682505.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <985986916.2634209.1489130682505@mail.yahoo.com> Hello friends of vintage computing, As I need the space at home, I am parting from some of my vintage gear. They have all been listed on EBAY.DE. Among others, there are two PDP11 V03 systems, a number of CRT terminals and others. Have a look and see if you find something of interest. Head over to EBAY.DE and search for "PDP11 V03", and then see all my other actions. Just thought I'd let you know.. Martin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 10 12:16:11 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:16:11 -0800 Subject: Tape reel data recovery from MERA-400 polish computer In-Reply-To: <2b59f05d-1cc7-1d46-b234-4b9886cd03ce@bitsavers.org> References: <2b59f05d-1cc7-1d46-b234-4b9886cd03ce@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2bd6a17a-a198-8ab5-9667-667ce2e5581c@sydex.com> On 03/10/2017 09:59 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > This is fsckin cool. Chuck and I were wondering how it turned out. > > On 3/9/17 7:10 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> http://museo.freaknet.org/en/recupero-dati-nastri-magnetici-del-computer-polacco-mera-400/ That's pretty amazing, considering the crappy nature of those Qualstar drives. I may give it a try. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 10 12:19:54 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:19:54 -0800 Subject: Tape reel data recovery from MERA-400 polish computer In-Reply-To: <2bd6a17a-a198-8ab5-9667-667ce2e5581c@sydex.com> References: <2b59f05d-1cc7-1d46-b234-4b9886cd03ce@bitsavers.org> <2bd6a17a-a198-8ab5-9667-667ce2e5581c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <42255605-84b9-8278-9270-a1a0d1db8871@bitsavers.org> Spinning at 50ips probably helped instead of the default 20 I would have digitized the tach signal too, but luckily it wasn't needed Sad neither you or I are mentioned in the credits I'm going to try it as well, since I have all the hw to try it out. On 3/10/17 10:16 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 03/10/2017 09:59 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> This is fsckin cool. Chuck and I were wondering how it turned out. >> >> On 3/9/17 7:10 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>> http://museo.freaknet.org/en/recupero-dati-nastri-magnetici-del-computer-polacco-mera-400/ > > That's pretty amazing, considering the crappy nature of those Qualstar > drives. > > I may give it a try. > > --Chuck > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 10 12:22:43 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:22:43 -0500 Subject: Tape reel data recovery from MERA-400 polish computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:10 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > http://museo.freaknet.org/en/recupero-dati-nastri-magnetici-del-computer-polacco-mera-400/ Neat. The software mentioned in the article sounds very interesting. It talks about starting with digital data streams from the 9 heads, but adds that you can start with analog data too. That would be a small change: you'd basically have to add the slicer in software. That's potentially valuable, if the signals are marginal so the threshold needs to adjust on the fly. Obviously this can also be adapted to other tape formats, for example 7 track tapes. Or esoteric stuff like 10 track tapes. Thanks for that link! paul From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 10 12:39:10 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:39:10 -0800 Subject: Tape reel data recovery from MERA-400 polish computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The next extension is to track the tachometer values so that you can detect and compensate for tape stick/drag which is absolutely critical for formats that don't self-clock, like NRZI. Fortunately, they mention that the tapes they worked with were in good condition. The killer problem with the Qualstar is the reel motors are low torque. If you get a sticky tape, the RPMs go wonky. Good news is the Saleae 16 can do digital and analog capture. On 3/10/17 10:22 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The software mentioned in the article sounds very interesting. It talks about starting with digital data streams from the 9 heads, but adds that you can start with analog data too. That would be a small change: you'd basically have to add the slicer in software. That's potentially valuable, if the signals are marginal so the threshold needs to adjust on the fly. > > Obviously this can also be adapted to other tape formats, for example 7 track tapes. Or esoteric stuff like 10 track tapes. > > Thanks for that link! > > paul > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 10 12:58:15 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:58:15 -0500 Subject: Tape reel data recovery from MERA-400 polish computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67AC132D-6D57-40F2-963F-42E6A0C2C70A@comcast.net> > On Mar 10, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > The next extension is to track the tachometer values so that you can detect and compensate for tape stick/drag > which is absolutely critical for formats that don't self-clock, like NRZI. NRZI is not self clocking if you consider an individual track in isolation. But it IS if you consider all the tracks at the same time, provided either (a) the data is recorded with odd parity, or (b) the all-zeroes data character isn't used. (a) is the case for 9-track tapes. 7 track tapes may be even parity, but that case seems to apply by convention only to text data (not binary data) and there, (b) applies. You do have to correct for track skew in this process, but that applies in any case even if you have an independent authoritative bit clock. It clearly can help to have tach signals as a way to improve bit framing, but I don't see that it's mandatory. paul From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 10 13:17:46 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 19:17:46 +0000 Subject: HP 9815A In-Reply-To: <009f01d299c1$e51a4e50$af4eeaf0$@classiccmp.org> References: <009f01d299c1$e51a4e50$af4eeaf0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 5:15 PM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Local electronics place has a HP 9815A for sale, the appearance from a 10 > foot distance was "fair" or slightly less than fair condition. If someone is > serious about it, let me know and I'll inquire further. > No I don't want to try and get it over here... This machine is interesting from at least 2 respects. It is, IMHO the only HP desktop machine to be truely RPN. It has the 4 level stack with automatic lift/drop like the handhelds. The older HP desktops with the 3 level stack (9100, 9810) don't have automatic lift and drop so in my opinion are not true RPN machines. The other interesting aspect is that this is the only HP desktop calculator (as opposed to computer) to use a standard microprocessor. Earlier machines used a TTL-based bit-serial thing, slightlty later ones (HP9825, etc) used an HP custom processor. But the 9815 has a 6800 in it. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 10 13:25:23 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:25:23 -0800 Subject: Tape reel data recovery from MERA-400 polish computer In-Reply-To: <67AC132D-6D57-40F2-963F-42E6A0C2C70A@comcast.net> References: <67AC132D-6D57-40F2-963F-42E6A0C2C70A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7b5cdaeb-7f77-1e9f-29dc-762a1222c5b7@sydex.com> On 03/10/2017 10:58 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mar 10, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> >> The next extension is to track the tachometer values so that you >> can detect and compensate for tape stick/drag which is absolutely >> critical for formats that don't self-clock, like NRZI. > > NRZI is not self clocking if you consider an individual track in > isolation. But it IS if you consider all the tracks at the same > time, provided either (a) the data is recorded with odd parity, or > (b) the all-zeroes data character isn't used. (a) is the case for > 9-track tapes. 7 track tapes may be even parity, but that case seems > to apply by convention only to text data (not binary data) and there, > (b) applies. You do have to correct for track skew in this process, > but that applies in any case even if you have an independent > authoritative bit clock. > > It clearly can help to have tach signals as a way to improve bit > framing, but I don't see that it's mandatory. I think I mentioned that a couple of years ago. Even parity 7 track tapes were used on very old systems for reasons that escape me. One of the problems, then was how to represent an all-zero character, since there would be no transitions in that particular frame. A tach signal is useful for adjusting the width of the "window" when deskewing. I wonder if there's not a better way to attack the problem with some simple hardware. The original posters mentioned an AVR Arduino as their initial platform, but cheap SBCs are available that run much, much faster. Consider, for example, the RPi zero or the Orange Pi zero or a host other sub-$10 hosts running at a GHz or more. You'd need level-shifting for a modern MCU/CPU anyway, as logic levels are most commonly 3.3V, not 5V. --Chuck From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Mar 10 13:34:21 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:34:21 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer stuff on EBAY.DE In-Reply-To: <985986916.2634209.1489130682505@mail.yahoo.com> References: <985986916.2634209.1489130682505.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <985986916.2634209.1489130682505@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, Martin. On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 1:24 AM, Martin Meiner via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello friends of vintage computing, > > As I need the space at home, I am parting from some of my vintage gear. > They have all been listed on EBAY.DE. > Among others, there are two PDP11 V03 systems, a number of CRT terminals > and others. Have a look and see if you find something of interest. > Head over to EBAY.DE and search for "PDP11 V03", and then see all my > other actions. > Just thought I'd let you know.. > I'm trying to pull up your ADM-3A (222434344378) on the US eBay site, but it's not showing up there. Do you know why that is? (I've never bought from a foreign eBay domain, so I'm not sure if I can just log in there as I would on the US site, watch items, etc., and have it all propagate from one domain to the other.) -- Eric Christopherson From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 10 13:40:47 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:40:47 -0500 Subject: Tape reel data recovery from MERA-400 polish computer In-Reply-To: <7b5cdaeb-7f77-1e9f-29dc-762a1222c5b7@sydex.com> References: <67AC132D-6D57-40F2-963F-42E6A0C2C70A@comcast.net> <7b5cdaeb-7f77-1e9f-29dc-762a1222c5b7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <423FBCF3-5846-4CC7-BE49-0AB1A167EEF8@comcast.net> > On Mar 10, 2017, at 2:25 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 03/10/2017 10:58 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> The next extension is to track the tachometer values so that you >>> can detect and compensate for tape stick/drag which is absolutely >>> critical for formats that don't self-clock, like NRZI. >> >> NRZI is not self clocking if you consider an individual track in >> isolation. But it IS if you consider all the tracks at the same >> time, provided either (a) the data is recorded with odd parity, or >> (b) the all-zeroes data character isn't used. (a) is the case for >> 9-track tapes. 7 track tapes may be even parity, but that case seems >> to apply by convention only to text data (not binary data) and there, >> (b) applies. You do have to correct for track skew in this process, >> but that applies in any case even if you have an independent >> authoritative bit clock. >> >> It clearly can help to have tach signals as a way to improve bit >> framing, but I don't see that it's mandatory. > > I think I mentioned that a couple of years ago. Even parity 7 track > tapes were used on very old systems for reasons that escape me. One of > the problems, then was how to represent an all-zero character, since > there would be no transitions in that particular frame. Sure. One tape document I looked at mentions the use of odd parity on the 7-track tapes when writing binary data, even parity when writing "IBM BCD" character coded data, with one of the 6-bit values forbidden in that case (the value encoded on tape as 6 zero bits). A stretch with no transitions occurs of course at the block boundary (the gap). It also apparently occurs in other spots, for a few bit times: tape marks seem to consist of two frames separated by a few clocks worth of blank space. Ditto between data and block check frame(s), if I remember right. > A tach signal is useful for adjusting the width of the "window" when > deskewing. Yes, that was my point: useful to make the process easier or to improve the quality of the result if the inputs are marginal, but you can make it work without a tach signal. > I wonder if there's not a better way to attack the problem with some > simple hardware. The original posters mentioned an AVR Arduino as > their initial platform, but cheap SBCs are available that run much, much > faster. Consider, for example, the RPi zero or the Orange Pi zero or a > host other sub-$10 hosts running at a GHz or more. > > You'd need level-shifting for a modern MCU/CPU anyway, as logic levels > are most commonly 3.3V, not 5V. Al's mention of that Saleae device fits there: you could plug that into any suitable fast enough computer, and it deals with analog data so you can do the threshold in software. (Thanks Al, those look like nice devices.) paul From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Mar 10 13:40:54 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:40:54 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer stuff on EBAY.DE In-Reply-To: References: <985986916.2634209.1489130682505.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <985986916.2634209.1489130682505@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Eric Christopherson < echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Martin. > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 1:24 AM, Martin Meiner via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hello friends of vintage computing, >> >> As I need the space at home, I am parting from some of my vintage gear. >> They have all been listed on EBAY.DE. >> Among others, there are two PDP11 V03 systems, a number of CRT terminals >> and others. Have a look and see if you find something of interest. >> Head over to EBAY.DE and search for "PDP11 V03", and then see all my >> other actions. >> Just thought I'd let you know.. >> > > I'm trying to pull up your ADM-3A (222434344378) on the US eBay site, but > it's not showing up there. Do you know why that is? > > (I've never bought from a foreign eBay domain, so I'm not sure if I can > just log in there as I would on the US site, watch items, etc., and have it > all propagate from one domain to the other.) > Oh, I see it's for local pickup only (and you seem to be in Switzerland), or maybe shipping to Germany: "M?glicherweise kein Versand nach Vereinigte Staaten von Amerika - Lesen Sie die Artikelbeschreibung oder kontaktieren Sie den Verk?ufer, um Informationen zu Versandoptionen zu erhalten." translation via Google: "No shipping to United States of America - Read the item description or contact the seller for shipping information." and: "Da die Wahre raus muss, verkaufe ich den Gegenstand f?r Selbstabholer (oder Transport vom K?ufer selber organisiert) ab EUR 1 ohne Mindestpreis." translation via Google: "Since the truth must go out, I sell the object for self-pickup (or transport organized by the buyer itself) from EUR 1 without a minimum price." -- Eric Christopherson From j_hoppe at t-online.de Fri Mar 10 13:56:34 2017 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:56:34 +0100 Subject: RT-11 5.x install tapes? In-Reply-To: <17031010194076_44B@slug.flying-disk.com> References: <17031010194076_44B@slug.flying-disk.com> Message-ID: Alan, thanks! - I saw that neither 5.5 nor 5.6 has no DD, but 5.0 -5.4G and 5.7 has. Didn't understand the reason. - Also DD.MAC in the 5.0 - 5.4 and 5.7 changes often. I tested tu58fs with oversized TU58 tape for 5.3 and 5.7, the number of blocks is always patched into into offset 0x2c, 0x2d in DD.SYS - I made a working DD.SYS with .macro DD, .link DD, .rename DD.SAV DD.SYS Do you know how to make DDX.SYS? Must be a conditional MACRO symbol. Joerg > >> for work on TU58 emulator "tu58fs" I'd like to experiment with >> oversized tape images under RT-11 5.5, 5.6 and 5.7. The images I >> know about are the classiccmp collections, Earl Evans pointed me >> to the RT11DV50.ISO archive. >> However, in these images the TU58 driver files >> DD.MAC/DD.SYS/DDX.SYS are mostly missing. Strange, because they >> claim to be pristine. >> Somebody knows about original RT-11 V5 installation tape images? > Here is the DD.MAC file you are looking for. It was part of > the RT-11 v5.6 sources that Mentec supplied to the Y2K update > team to make v5.7. Since the last modification was in 1979, > it is safe to assume that it applies to all recent versions. > > Have fun! > > Alan > > -------------------------------------------------- > .MCALL .MODULE > .MODULE DD,VERSION=21,COMMENT=,AUDIT=YES > > ; COPYRIGHT (c) 1989 BY > ; DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION, MAYNARD, MASS. > ; ALL RIGHTS RESERVED > ; > ;THIS SOFTWARE IS FURNISHED UNDER A LICENSE AND MAY BE USED AND COPIED > ;ONLY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TERMS OF SUCH LICENSE AND WITH THE > ;INCLUSION OF THE ABOVE COPYRIGHT NOTICE. THIS SOFTWARE OR ANY OTHER > ;COPIES THEREOF MAY NOT BE PROVIDED OR OTHERWISE MADE AVAILABLE TO ANY > ;OTHER PERSON. NO TITLE TO AND OWNERSHIP OF THE SOFTWARE IS HEREBY > ;TRANSFERRED. > ; > ;THE INFORMATION IN THIS SOFTWARE IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE > ;AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS A COMMITMENT BY DIGITAL EQUIPMENT > ;CORPORATION. > ; > ;DIGITAL ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE USE OR RELIABILITY OF ITS > ;SOFTWARE ON EQUIPMENT THAT IS NOT SUPPLIED BY DIGITAL. > > .SBTTL CONDITIONAL ASSEMBLY SUMMARY > ;+ > ;COND > ; DD$PRI (4) Interrupt Priority > ; 4-7 possible interrupt priorities > ; > ; DDT$O (0) two controller support > ; 0 1 controller > ; 1 2 controllers > ; > ; DD$CSR (176500) 1st controller CSR > ; DD$VEC (300) 1st controller VECTOR > ; > ; DD$CS2 (176510) 2nd controller CSR > ; DD$VC2 (310) 2nd controller VECTOR > ; > ; EIS$I (MMG$T) Use SOB instruction (no code effects!) > ; 0 simulate SOB > ; 1 use SOB > ; > ; MMG$T std conditional > ; TIM$IT std conditional (no code effects) > ; ERL$G std conditional > ;- > > .SBTTL GENERAL COMMENTS > > .ENABL LC > > ;+ > ; ABSTRACT FOR CODE FROM WHICH THIS WAS TAKEN: > ; > ; THIS MODULE MAY BE ASSEMBLED TO YIELD EITHER THE RAM PORTION OF A PDT > ; DRIVER WITH PRIMITIVES IN ROM OR A MODULE TO BE LINKED WITH ANOTHER > ; MODULE TO MAKE AN RT11 DRIVER FROM THE ROM PRIMITIVES. > ; > ; AUTHOR: > ; > ; BILL CLOGHER VERSION 1 > ; DARRELL DUFFY VERSION 2 27-APR-78 > ; > ; MODIFIED BY: > ; BARBARA DOERRE > ; 23-AUG-78 SINGLE MODULE RT11 DRIVER > ; DENISE LANGLAIS > ; 29-JUN-79 REMOVE 'DEVICE DRIVER LIST' (R5) AND IMPURE AREA (R4) > ; 1-AUG-79 ADD DUAL CONTROLLER CODE AND SET OPTIONS > ;- > > .SBTTL MACROS AND DEFINITIONS > > .MCALL .DRDEF, .MTPS, .ASSUME .ADDR > > ; DD IS CONTROLLED VIA A SERIAL LINE OF DL TYPE > ; CONTROL REGISTERS ARE THEREFORE A DL > > .IIF NDF DD$PRI DD$PRI = 4 ;STANDARD PRIORITY FOR DL > > .IIF NDF DDT$O DDT$O = 0 ;DEFAULT TO SINGLE CONTROLLER > > .IIF NDF DD$CS2 DD$CS2 = 176510 ;DEFAULT CSR FOR SECOND CONTROLLER > .IIF NDF DD$VC2 DD$VC2 = 310 ;DEFAULT VECTOR > > .DRDEF DD,34,FILST$,512.,176500,300 > .IIF EQ MMG$T .DRPTR > .IIF NE MMG$T .DRPTR FETCH=*NO* > .DREST CLASS=DVC.DK > > .IIF NDF EIS$I EIS$I = MMG$T > .IIF EQ EIS$I .MCALL SOB ; USE SOB INSTRUCTION UNDER XM > > ;THE FOLLOWING LIST OF SYMBOLICS WERE DELETED SINCE ACCESS TO THE CSR'S > ;IS THROUGH A LIST OF THEIR ADDRESSES (@TICSRA AS OPPOSED TO @#TI$CSR) > ;TI$CSR =: DD$CSR ;INPUT CONTROL AND STATUS > ;TI$BFR =: TI$CSR+2 ;INPUT BUFFER > ;TO$CSR =: TI$CSR+4 ;OUTPUT CONTROL > ;TO$BFR =: TI$CSR+6 ;OUTPUT BUFFER > ;TI$VEC =: DD$VEC ;INPUT VECTOR > ;TO$VEC =: TI$VEC+4 ;OUTPUT VECTOR > > CS$INT =: 100 ;CONTROL INTERRUPT ENABLE > CS$BRK =: 1 ;CONTROL BREAK ENABLE > > ; ERROR LOG VALUES > > DDCNT =: 8. ;RETRY COUNT > DDNREG =: 10. ;COUNT OF REGISTERS REPORT TO EL > > ; RADIAL SERIAL CODES > > ; LEVEL 2 CODES (OPCODE BYTE) > > R$$NOP =: 0 ;NO OPERATION > R$$INT =: 1 ;INITIALIZE > R$$RED =: 2 ;READ FUNCTION > R$$WRT =: 3 ;WRITE OPERATION > R$$POS =: 5 ;POSITION > R$$END =: 100 ;END PACKET FROM PERIPHERAL > > ; LEVEL 1 CODES (FLAG BYTE) > > R$CONT =: 20 ;CONTINUE > R$INIT =: 4 ;INIT PROTOCOL > R$DATA =: 1 ;DATA PACKET > R$MSG =: 2 ;MESSAGE PACKET > R$MSIZ =: 10. ;MESSAGE PACKET SIZE > R$DSIZ =: 128. ;MAX DATA PACKET SIZE FOR DD > > ; MMU REGISTERS > > KISAR1 =: 172342 ;KERNEL PAR1 > > ; RMON REFERENCES > > SYSPTR =: 54 ; SYSCOM pointer to RMON > CONFG2 =: 370 ; second configuration word > BUS$ =: 000100 ; > PROS$ =: 020000 ; > BUS$M =: BUS$!PROS$ ;Mask for type bits > BUS$X =: BUS$!PROS$ ;Strange (busless) KXJ > BUS$C =: PROS$ ;CTI bus > BUS$Q =: BUS$ ;QBUS > BUS$U =: 0 ;UNIBUS > > SYSCHN =: 17 ; system channel number > .READ =: 375 ; EMT code for .READ/.WRITE > .WRITE =: 375 ; EMT CODE FOR .READ/.WRITE > ..READ =: 010 ; Subcode for .READ > ..WRIT =: 011 ; Subcode for .WRITE > > .SBTTL INSTALLATION CODE > > .ASECT > .IF NE DDT$O > .DRINS DD, > .IFF > .DRINS DD > .ENDC > BR 1$ ;Data device installation check > .ASSUME . EQ INSSYS > BR 15$ ;System device installation check (none) > 1$: MOV @#SYSPTR,R0 ; get address of RMON > MOV CONFG2(R0),R0 ;Get configuration word for BUS check > BIC #^C,R0 ;Isolate bus bits > CMP #,R0 ;Running on KXJ? > BNE 15$ ;Yes, go ahead and install > CMP #,R0 ;CTI bus? > BEQ 2$ ; yes, don't install > 15$: TST (PC)+ ; clear carry, skip setting carry > 2$: SEC ; set carry > RETURN > > ; The EMT area for reading/writing the bootstrap is placed here > ; to leave room for set option code. > > BAREA: .BYTE SYSCHN,..READ ;CHANNEL 17, READ > .BLKW ;BLOCK NUMBER > .BLKW ;BUFFER ADDRESS > .WORD 256. ;WORD COUNT > .WORD 0 ;COMPLETION (WAIT) > > > O.RTR1: CMP R0,R3 ;ASKING FOR TOO MANY RETRIES? > BHI O.BAD ;USER IS BEING UNREASONABLE... > TST R0 ;WERE NON-ZERO RETRIES SPECIFIED? > BEQ O.BAD ;CAN'T ASK FOR NO RETRIES > MOV R0,DRETRY ;OKAY, SET IT > BR O.GOOD > > O.SYWL: > MOV @SP,R0 ; copy return address > INC R0 ; point to opcode at return > CMPB #BR/400,(R0)+ ; is it a BR xxx? > BNE O.BAD ; NO, old style SET > MOV R0, at SP ; use alternate return (RET+2) > BR O.BAD ; with carry set > > .ASSUME . LE 400,MESSAGE=<;Install area too big> > > .SBTTL SET OPTIONS > > .DRSET CSR, 160000, O.CSR, OCT > .DRSET VECTOR, 500, O.VEC, OCT > > .IF NE DDT$O > .DRSET CSR2, 160000, O.CSR2, OCT > .DRSET VEC2, 500, O.VEC2, OCT > .ENDC ;NE DDT$O > > .DRSET RETRY, 127., O.RTRY, NUM > > .IF NE ERL$G > .DRSET SUCCES, -1, O.SUCC, NO > .ENDC ;NE ERL$G > > BTCSR = + + 1000 > > O.RTRY: BR O.RTR1 ; MOVED TO INSTALL AREA > > O.CSR: CMP R0,R3 ;CSR IN RANGE? (>160000) > BLO O.BAD ;NOPE... > MOV R0,INSCSR ;YES, INSTALLATION CODE NEEDS IT > MOV R0,DISCSR ;AND SO DOES RESORC > > ; When the CSR for units 0 and 1 is changed, the bootstrap must > ; be altered such that it will use the correct controller. > > ;R1->EMT AREA > .ADDR #BAREA+4,R1 ; (BUFFER ADDRESS WORD) > ;R2->READ/WRITE BUFFER > .ADDR #1000,R2 ; (OVERWRITES CORE COPY OF BLOCK 1) > MOV R2,(R1) ;SET THE BUFFER ADDRESS > MOV #BTCSR/1000,-(R1) ; AND THE BOOT BLOCK TO READ/WRITE > TST -(R1) ;R1->EMT AREA > MOV R0,R3 ;SAVE CSR ELSEWHERE, EMT NEEDS R0 > MOV R1,R0 ;R0->EMT AREA FOR READ > EMT .READ ; *** (.READW) *** > BCS O.BAD > MOV R3,(R2) ;SET THE NEW CSR > ADD #4,(R2) ; (+4) > MOV R1,R0 ;R0->EMT AREA AGAIN > .ASSUME ..READ+1 EQ ..WRIT > INCB 1(R0) ;CHANGE FROM 'READ' TO 'WRITE' > EMT .WRITE ; *** (.WRITW) *** > BCS O.SYWL > MOV R1,R0 ;R0->EMT AREA (LAST TIME, HONEST) > .ASSUME ..WRIT-1 EQ ..READ > DECB 1(R0) ;CHANGE BACK TO A 'READ' > MOV #1,2(R0) ; OF BLOCK 1 OF HANDLER > EMT .READ ; ** (.READW) *** > BCS O.BAD > > .IF NE DDT$O > MOV R3,SET$L1+2 ;SET NEW CSR FOR CREATING ADDR LIST > .ENDC ;NE DDT$O > > ;GET ADDR OF CSR ADDRESS TABLE > .ADDR #TICSRA,R1 ; IN A PIC FASHION > MOV #2,R0 > MOV R3,(R1)+ ;SAVE RCSR, > ADD R0,R3 > MOV R3,(R1)+ ; RBUF, > ADD R0,R3 > MOV R3,(R1)+ ; XCSR, > ADD R0,R3 > MOV R3, at R1 ; AND XBUF > O.GOOD: TST (PC)+ ;GOOD RETURN (CARRY CLEAR) > O.BAD: SEC ;BAD RETURN (CARRY SET) > RETURN > > O.VEC: CMP R0,R3 ;VECTOR IN RANGE? (<500) > BHIS O.BAD ;NOPE... > BIT #3,R0 ;YES, BUT ON A VECTOR BOUNDRY? > BNE O.BAD ;NOPE... > MOV R0,VECTAB ;VECTOR ADDR TO DRIVER TABLE > TST (R0)+ ;+2 FOR PSW > > .IF NE DDT$O > MOV R0,SET$L2+2 ;SET VECTOR USED TO CREATE ADDR LIST > .ENDC ;NE DDT$O > > ;GET POINTER TO TIVECA > .ADDR #TIVECA,R1 ; IN A PIC FASHION > MOV R0,(R1)+ ;STORE ADDR OF INPUT PSW > TST (R0)+ ;+2 FOR OUTPUT VECTOR > MOV R0,VECTAB+6 ;VECTOR ADDR TO DRIVER TABLE > TST (R0)+ ;+2 FOR PSW > MOV R0, at R1 ;STORE ADDR OF OUTPUT PSW > RETURN > > .IF NE DDT$O > O.CSR2: CMP R0,R3 ;CSR IN RANGE? (>160000) > BLO O.BAD ;NOPE... > MOV R0,SET$L3+2 ;CHANGE CSR USED TO CREATE ADDR LIST > MOV R0,DISCS2 ;AND FOR RESORC > RETURN > > O.VEC2: CMP R0,R3 ;VECTOR IN RANGE? (<500) > BHIS O.BAD ;NOPE... > BIT #3,R0 ;YES, BUT ON A VECTOR BOUNDRY? > BNE O.BAD ;NOPE... > MOV R0,VECTAB+14 ;VECTOR ADDR TO DRIVER TABLE > TST (R0)+ ;+2 FOR PSW > MOV R0,SET$L4+2 ;SET VECTOR USED TO CREATE ADDR LIST > TST (R0)+ ; +2 FOR OUTPUT VECTOR > MOV R0,VECTAB+22 ;VECTOR ADDR TO DRIVER TABLE > BR O.GOOD > .ENDC ;NE DDT$O > > .IF NE ERL$G > O.SUCC: MOV #0,R3 ;'SUCCESS' ENTRY POINT > ; (MUST TAKE UP TWO WORDS) > N.SUCC: MOV R3,SCSFLG ;'NOSUCCESS' ENTRY POINT > .ASSUME O.SUCC+4 EQ N.SUCC > BR O.GOOD > .ENDC ;NE ERL$G > > .Assume . LE 1000,MESSAGE=<;SET area too big> > > .SBTTL START I/O ENTRY > > .DRBEG DD > > CALL STARIO ;CALL START I/O - ONLY RETNS IF ERROR > ERR1: MOV DDCQE,R4 ;ERROR, R4 -> CURRENT QUEUE ELEMENT > .ASSUME Q$BLKN-2 EQ Q$CSW > BIS #HDERR$, at -(R4) ;SET HARD ERROR BIT IN CSW > BR PDEXIT ;EXIT ON HARD ERROR > > ; FOR SET OPTIONS TO ALLOW VECTORS TO BE CHANGED > ; KEEP .DRVTB MACRO CALLS IN THIS ORDER > > VECTAB: .DRVTB DD,DD$VEC,DDINT > .DRVTB ,DD$VEC+4,DDINT > .ASSUME .-DDSTRT LE 1000 > .IF NE DDT$O > .DRVTB ,DD$VC2,DDINT > .DRVTB ,DD$VC2+4,DDINT > .ASSUME .-DDSTRT LE 1000 > .ENDC ;NE DDT$O > > .IF NE ERL$G > SCSFLG: .WORD 0 ; :SUCCESSFUL LOGGING FLAG (DEFAULT=YES) > .ASSUME .-DDSTRT LE 1000 > ; =0 - LOG SUCCESSES, > ; <>0 - DON'T LOG SUCCESSES > .ENDC ;NE ERL$G > > .SBTTL DD VECTOR AND CSR ADDRESS LIST > > ; NOTE: > ; THIS LIST WAS CREATED TO IMPLEMENT THE DUAL CONTROLLER CODE, HOWEVER > ; THE LIST DEFAULTS TO THE CORRECT ADDRESSES FOR A SINGLE CONTROLLER > ; SINCE ALL REFERENCES TO THE CSR'S AND VECTORS ARE THROUGH THIS LIST. > ; NOT ONLY IS THE ORDER CRITICAL BUT ALSO THE FACT THAT THIS LIST MUST > ; BE LOCATED IN THE FIRST BLOCK OF THE HANDLER IN ORDER FOR THE SET > ; OPTIONS TO WORK (I.E. KMON READS ONLY THE FIRST 2 BLOCKS FOR A SET > ; COMMAND) > > ; *ORDER* > > TICSRA: .WORD DD$CSR > TIBFRA: .WORD DD$CSR+2 > TOCSRA: .WORD DD$CSR+4 > TOBFRA: .WORD DD$CSR+6 > TIVECA: .WORD DD$VEC+2 > TOVECA: .WORD DD$VEC+6 > > ; *END ORDER* > .ASSUME .-DDSTRT LE 1000 > > .SBTTL INTERRUPT ENTRY > > .ENABL LSB > > BR DDABRT > DDINT:: BCS 1$ ;DON'T DO .INTEN IF C=1 ON INTERRUPT (SPEED) > JSR R5,@$INPTR ;JUST LIKE THE .DRAST MACRO WOULD DO > .WORD ^C&^O340 ;.DRAST DD,DD$PRI,DDABRT > CLR (PC)+ ;CLEAR FORK FLAG - NEEDED FOR ERROR LOGGER > FKFLG: .WORD 0 ;FLAG=0 UNTIL .FORK IS DONE > JMP @I$INTR ;GO TO INTERRUPT SERVICE > > ; HIGH SPEED INTERRUPT ENTRY > > 1$: MOV R4,-(SP) ;SAVE R4 > CALL @I$INTR ;CALL WHERE WE LEFT OFF > MOV (SP)+,R4 ;RESTORE > RTI ;RETURN FROM INTERRUPT > > .DSABL LSB > > .SBTTL INTERRUPT EXIT > > ;+ > ; INIRTN - ENABLES THE INPUT INTERRUPT AND BRANCHES TO INPRTN > ; SAME INPUT AND OUTPUT AS INPRTN > ; > ; OUTCHR - OUTPUTS THE CHARACTER PASSED IN R5 AND FALLS INTO OUTRTN > ; SAME INPUT AND OUTPUT AS OUTRTN EXCEPT R5 ON ENTRY > ; CONTAINS THE CHARACTER TO OUTPUT > ; > ; NOTE: TWO ENTRIES (OUTRTN, INPRTN) ARE IDENTICAL > ; > ; JSR PC,XXXRTN > ; > ; RETURN SAVED IN I$INTR > ; RETURN FROM INTERRUPT > ;- > > INIRTN: BIS #CS$INT, at TICSRA ;SET THE INPUT INTERRUPT > BR INPRTN ;GO RETURN > > OUTCHR: MOV R5, at TOBFRA ;OUTPUT A CHARACTER > OUTRTN: > INPRTN: MOV (SP)+,I$INTR ;SAVE RETURN > INTRTN: RETURN > > .SBTTL COMPLETION EXIT > > COMPLT: BCS ERR1 ;IF CS, ERROR > > .IF NE ERL$G > TST FKFLG ;WAS A FORK DONE > BNE 1$ ;IF NE, YES, OK TO GO TO ERROR LOGGER THEN > CALL FORK ;NO, MUST BE AT FORK LEVEL FOR ERROR LOGGING > 1$: TST SCSFLG ;LOGGING SUCCESSES? > BNE PDEXIT ;NOPE... > MOV #DD$COD*400+377,R4 ;SUCCESSFUL I/O - CALL ERROR LOGGER > MOV DDCQE,R5 ;CALL ERROR LOGGER FOR SUCCESS > CALL @$ELPTR > .ENDC ;NE ERL$G > > PDEXIT: .DRFIN DD ;EXIT TO COMPLETION > > .SBTTL FORK ROUTINE > > ;+ > ; FORK - DO A .FORK > ; > ; R0 - R3 = SAME AS WHEN INTERRUPT SERVICE ENTERED > ; SP -> THE RETURN PC > ; FKFLG = 0 (NO .FORK DONE YET) > ; > ; JSR PC,FORK > ; > ; R0 - R3 = AVAILABLE FOR USE > ; R4, R5 = SAME AS WHEN FORK WAS CALLED > ; STACK = UNSPECIFIED. GUARANTEED NOT TO BE SAME > ; PRIORITY = 0 (FORK LEVEL) > ; FKFLG <> 0 TO INDICATE A .FORK HAS BEEN DONE > ;- > > FORK: MOV (SP)+,FKFLG ;SAVE RETURN, POPPING STACK, AND SET FORK FLAG > MOV R0,-(SP) ;SAVE REGISTERS 0-3 > MOV R1,-(SP) > MOV R2,-(SP) > MOV R3,-(SP) > MOV FKFLG,-(SP) ;GET THE RETURN ADDRESS > JSR PC,@(SP)+ ;CO-ROUTINE BACK TO IT > MOV (SP)+,R3 ;RESTORE THE REGISTERS > MOV (SP)+,R2 > MOV (SP)+,R1 > MOV (SP)+,R0 > RTS PC ;COMPLETE THE UN-WINDING > > .SBTTL DDABRT - ABORT ENTRY > > DDABRT::BIC #1, at TIVECA ;CLEAR ANY CARRY BITS SET IN > BIC #1, at TOVECA ;THE INTERRUPT PSW > .MTPS #340 ;RAISE PRIORITY TO PREVENT INTERRUPTS > BIC #CS$INT, at TICSRA ;NO INPUT INTERRUPTS FOR NOW > BIS #CS$INT, at TOCSRA ;SET UP OUTPUT INTERRUPT > CLR (PC)+ ;CLEAR THE COUNT-DOWN WORD > 5$: .BLKW > 10$: MOV #R$INIT,R5 ;SEND INIT > CALL OUTCHR ;OUTPUT IT > DECB 5$ ;WAIT A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME > BEQ 15$ ; AND IF NO RESPONSE, GIVE UP TRYING > ; TO LEAVE IN A KNOWN STATE (AS PER > ; REPLY TO SPR #47883) > TSTB @TICSRA ;INPUT CHAR READY YET? > BPL 10$ ;NO,KEEP SENDING INITS > CALL TXINIT ;LEAVE IN A KNOWN STATE > 15$: BR PDEXIT ;EXIT NOW - DRFIN > > .SBTTL STARIO - START I/O CODE > > ;+ > ; STARIO - START I/O CODE > ; > ; R0-R4 AVAILABLE > ; > ; JSR PC,STARIO > ; > ; INTERRUPTS ENABLED, ALL SETUP TO START TRANSFER > ; > ; RETURN TO CALLER ON COMMAND ERROR > ; ELSE RETURN TO CALLER'S CALLER > ;- > > .ENABL LSB > > STARIO::CLR PK$UNT ;ASSUME FIRST UNIT > MOV DDCQE,R3 ;R3 -> QUEUE ELEMENT > MOVB Q$UNIT(R3),R0 ;GET THE UNIT BYTE > BIC #^C<7>,R0 ;CLEAR ALL BUT THE UNIT > ASR R0 ;SHIFT IT TO CHECK FOR ODD UNIT > > .IF EQ DDT$O > BNE 10$ ;IF UNIT > 1 ERROR > .ENDC ;EQ DDT$O > > BCC 1$ ;OK IF EVEN UNIT > INC PK$UNT ;SELECT ODD UNIT FOR TRANSFER > 1$: > .IF NE DDT$O > SET$L1: MOV #DD$CSR,R3 ;ASSUME FIRST DD CONTROLLER > SET$L2: MOV #DD$VEC+2,R2 ;CSR AND VECTOR > .ASSUME .-DDSTRT LE 1000 > ASR R0 ;SHIFT UNIT TO CHECK FOR SECOND CONTROLLER > BNE 10$ ;IF UNIT WAS 4 TO 7 ERROR > BCC 2$ ;FIRST CONTROLLER WAS RIGHT > SET$L3: MOV #DD$CS2,R3 ;IT'S THE SECOND CONTROLLER > SET$L4: MOV #DD$VC2+2,R2 ;CSR AND VECTOR > .ASSUME .-DDSTRT LE 1000 > 2$: > .ADDR #TICSRA,R1 ;POINT TO ADDRESS LIST > CMP R3, at R1 ;IS THE LIST OF ADDRESSES OK AS IS? > BEQ 4$ ;YES, DON'T BOTHER TO CHANGE AGAIN > MOV #4,R0 ;NO, THERE ARE FOUR TO CHANGE > 3$: MOV R3,(R1)+ ;STORE THE ADDRESSES IN THE TABLE > TST (R3)+ ;THEY ARE LOCATED TOGETHER SO +2 > SOB R0,3$ ;MORE? > MOV R2,(R1)+ ;NOW STORE THE VECTOR PSW LOCATIONS > CMP (R2)+,(R2)+ ;ADD FOR THE OUTPUT VECTOR PSW ADDR > MOV R2, at R1 > 4$: > .ENDC ;NE DDT$O > > DRETRY = .+2 > MOV #DDCNT,I$ERCT ;COMM RETRY COUNT > .ASSUME .-DDSTRT LE 1000 > CLR RETIO ;CLEAR THE RETRY I/O FLAG > TST I$ABRT ;DO WE NEED TO ABORT THE TX? > BNE RETRY ;NO OK ITS DONE > INC I$ERCT ;1 RETRY REQUIRED TO INIT > .ADDR #ABORT,R1 ;POINT TO ABORT > BR GO ;AND START THE BALL ROLLING > > RETRY: MOV DDCQE,R3 ;R3 -> QUEUE ELEMENT > TST RETIO ;IS I/O BEING RETRIED ? > BEQ 7$ ;NO, CONTINUE > ADD #Q$WCNT,R3 ;POINT AT THE WORD COUNT > MOV @R3,R1 ;PICK UP THE WORD COUNT > BPL 5$ ;BRANCH IF IT'S READ > NEG R1 ;MAKE WORD COUNT POSITIVE > 5$: ASL R1 ;MAKE IT A BYTE COUNT > SUB I$BYTC,R1 ;COMPUTE NUMBER OF BYTES TRANSFERED > ROR R1 ;MAKE IT WORD COUNT > CLRB R1 ;ROUND DOWN TO A BLOCK MULTIPLE > MOV R1,R2 ;COPY IT > TST @R3 ;IS WORD COUNT POSITIVE? > BPL 6$ ;YES, SUBTRACT #WORDS TRANSFERRED > NEG R1 ;NO, ADD #WORDS TRANSFERRED > 6$: SUB R1, at R3 ;UPDATE THE WORD COUNT > > .IF EQ MMG$T > .ASSUME Q$WCNT-2 EQ Q$BUFF > ADD R2,-(R3) ;UPDATE THE BUFFER ADDRESS > ADD R2, at R3 ;TWICE FOR CORRECT ADDRESS > .ASSUME Q$BUFF-2 EQ Q$FUNC > TST -(R3) ;POINT AT THE Q$FUNC > .IFF > MOV R2,R1 ;COPY THE WORD COUNT > ASHC #-5,R1 ;SHIFT IT RIGHT TO GET 32W UNIT COUNT > ADD R1,Q$PAR-Q$WCNT(R3) ;UPDATE THE BUFFER ADDRESS > .ASSUME Q$WCNT-4 EQ Q$FUNC > CMP -(R3),-(R3) ;BACK OFF THE QUEUE ELEMENT POINTER > .ENDC ;EQ MMG$T > > SWAB R2 ;GET THE NUMBER BLOCKS TRANSFERRED > .ASSUME Q$FUNC-2 EQ Q$BLKN > ADD R2,-(R3) ;UPDATE THE BLOCK NUMBER > 7$: MOV #R$$RED,PK$OPC ;GUESS READ OP, CLEAR MODIFIER BYTE > CLRB PK$SSQ ;CLEAR UP UNUSED STUFF > CLR PK$SSQ+1 ;SINCE TX DOES NOT USE IT > MOV Q$WCNT(R3),R1 ;GET WORD COUNT > BPL 8$ ;POSITIVE MEANS READ > MOVB #R$$WRT,PK$OPC ;MAKE IT WRITE > NEG R1 ; AND MAKE A POSITIVE WORD COUNT > 8$: ASL R1 ;MAKE BYTE COUNT > BNE 9$ ;NORMAL I/O > MOVB #R$$POS,PK$OPC ;COUNT=0 => SEEK, FUNCTION IS POSITION > 9$: MOV Q$BUFF(R3),I$ADRS ;ADDRESS FOR TRANSFER > > .IF NE MMG$T > MOV Q$PAR(R3),I$PAR ;SAVE PAR VALUE, TOO > .ENDC ;NE MMG$T > > MOV R1,I$BYTC ;SAVE BYTE COUNT > MOV R1,PK$BCT ;COPY BYTE COUNT INTO PACKET > MOV @R3,PK$RCD ;STORE BLOCK NUMBER IN COMMAND PACKET > .ADDR #TXGO,R1 ;MAKE THE ADDRESS OF THE TRANSFER START > GO: MOV R1,I$INTR ;OUTPUT SIDE STARTS US > BIS #CS$INT, at TOCSRA ;OUTPUT INTERRUPTS > TST (SP)+ ;RETURN DIRECT TO MONITOR > 10$: RETURN ;ERROR RETURN TO SKELETON > > .DSABL LSB > > .SBTTL TXGO - START TRANSFER FROM INTERRUPT LEVEL > > ;+ > ; TXGO - START TRANSFER > ; > ; JMP TXGO > ; > ; TRANSFER TO COMPLETION OR ERROR ENTRY > ;- > > TXGO: CALL FORK ;ENTER FORK STATE > MOV #R$MSG,PK$FLG ;MESSAGE TYPE TO FLAG BYTE > MOV #R$MSIZ,R2 ;MESSAGE SIZE FOR PACKET > ;GET ADDRESS OF MESSAGE > .ADDR #PK$OPC,R1 ;OPCODE IS FIRST BYTE > CALL SNDPKT ;SEND A PACKET TO START IO > 1$: CMPB PK$OPC,#R$$WRT ;IS IT A WRITE? > BNE 2$ ;NO > JSR R5,RCVPKT ;IF WRITE, RECEIVE THE CONTINUE PACKET > .WORD R$CONT ;EXPECTED A CONTINUE > 2$: MOV I$ADRS,R1 ;GET THE DATA ADDRESS > MOV I$BYTC,R2 ; AND THE BYTE COUNT > BEQ TXEND ;NO BYTES => POSITION (GET END PACKET) > CMP R2,#R$DSIZ ;TOO LARGE FOR ONE PACKET? > BLOS 3$ ;NOPE, USE THIS COUNT > MOV #R$DSIZ,R2 ;REDUCE TO A SINGLE PACKET TRANSFER > 3$: CMPB PK$OPC,#R$$WRT ;WRITE? > BNE 4$ ;NO > MOVB #R$DATA,PK$FLG ;YES, SET UP DATA FLAG > CALL SNDPKT ;SEND DATA PACKET > CMP I$BYTC,#R$DSIZ ;MORE LEFT TO DO? > BLOS TXEND ;NO, FINISH UP > JSR R5,RCVPKT ;YES, RECEIVE THE NEXT CONTINUE PACKET > .WORD R$CONT ;EXPECT A CONTINUE > BR 5$ ;GO SEND THE NEXT DATA PACKET > > 4$: JSR R5,RCVPKT ;READ, RECEIVE A DATA PACKET > .WORD R$DATA ;EXPECT A DATA FLAG > 5$: > .IF EQ MMG$T > ADD #R$DSIZ,I$ADRS ;ADJUST THE ADDRESS > .IFF > ADD #2,I$PAR ;ADJUST THE PAR BIAS TO UPDATE THE ADDR > .ENDC ;EQ MMG$T > > SUB #R$DSIZ,I$BYTC ;COUNT ONE PACKET FROM THE WORD COUNT > BHI 2$ ;STILL MORE TO GO > CLR I$BYTC ;ALL HAS BEEN TRANSFERRED > > .SBTTL TXEND - READ THE END PACKET AFTER A TRANSFER > > TXEND: ;POINT TO THE MESSAGE PACKET > .ADDR #I$MBFR,R1 ; BY THE PIC METHOD > MOV #R$MSIZ,R2 ;THE SIZE OF A MESSAGE > JSR R5,RCVPKT ;GET A PACKET > .WORD R$MSG ;EXPECT A MESSAGE PACKET > > .SBTTL ERROR - ANALYZE AN END PACKET > > ERROR: CMPB PK$FLG,#R$MSG ;MESSAGE PACKET? > BNE ABORTR ;NO, PROTOCOL SCREWUP, TRY REINITIALIZING > CMPB I$MOPC,#R$$END ;END PACKET? > BNE ABORTR ;NO, ERROR > TSTB I$MSUC ;CHECK FOR SUCCESS > > .IF EQ ERL$G > BPL CPLRTN ;OK, SO COMPLETE WITHOUT ERROR > .IFF > BEQ CPLRTN ;OK, SO COMPLETE WITHOUT ERROR > BLT FATAL ;FATAL ERROR > MOV I$ERCT,R2 ;DATA IS OK, BUT LOG CONTROLLER RETRIES > CALL LOGERR ;LOG THE RETRY ATTEMPT > BR CPLRTN ;NOW YOU CAN RETURN > .ENDC ;EQ ERL$G > > FATAL: TST FKFLG ;FORK DONE? > BNE 1$ ;YES, COMPLETE WITH AN ERROR > CALL FORK ;ELSE GO TO FORK LEVEL > > .IF NE ERL$G > CLR R2 ;INDICATE FATAL I/O ERROR > CALL LOGERR ;LOG THE HARD ERROR > .ENDC ;NE ERL$G > > 1$: SEC ;SET C FOR FATAL ERROR > CPLRTN: BIC R4,R4 ;ZERO R4 > BIC #CS$INT, at TICSRA ;ZAP INTERRUPT ENABLE > BIC #CS$INT, at TOCSRA ;ON BOTH SIDES > JMP COMPLT ;*C* GO TO COMPLETION EXIT > > .SBTTL ABORT - COMMUNICATIONS ERROR > > ABORTR: MOV SP,(PC)+ ;INDICATE I/O RETRY IN PROGRESS > RETIO: .WORD 0 ;RETRY I/O INDICATOR > ABORT: CALL TXINIT ;ABORT THE TRANSFER > CLR I$ABRT ;ABORT IS NEEDED (ASSUME) > TST I$ERCT ;TRIED ALL WE CAN? > BLE FATAL ;YES- NO MORE TRIES > INC I$ABRT ;NO IT WORKED THIS TIME > MOV R3,-(SP) ;SAVE > MOV R2,-(SP) ; ALL > MOV R1,-(SP) ; IMPORTANT > MOV R0,-(SP) ; REGISTERS > CALL 9$ ;CALL SIMULATES MONITOR CALL TO STARTIO > MOV (SP)+,R0 ;RESTORE > MOV (SP)+,R1 ; ALL > MOV (SP)+,R2 ; IMPORTANT > MOV (SP)+,R3 ; REGISTERS > RETURN ;RETURN FROM INTERRUPT > > 9$: CALL RETRY ;RETRY ENTRY IN MAIN START CODE > TST (SP)+ ;DUMP NEXT RETURN TO CLEAN STACK > MOV (SP)+,R0 ;RESTORE > MOV (SP)+,R1 ; ALL > MOV (SP)+,R2 ; IMPORTANT > MOV (SP)+,R3 ; REGISTERS > BR FATAL ;RETURN HERE IS FATAL > > .IF NE ERL$G > > .SBTTL LOGERR - SET UP AND CALL ERROR LOGGER > > ;+ > ; R2 > 0 => RETRY ATTEMPT (SOFT ERROR) > ; = 0 => HARD ERROR > ; > ; JSR PC,LOGERR > ; > ; ALL REGISTERS RESTORED > ;- > > LOGERR: MOV R2,R4 ;R4 LOB = CURRENT RETRY COUNT > BIS #DD$COD*400,R4 ;R4 HOB = DEVICE ID CODE > MOV DRETRY,R3 > SWAB R3 > ADD #DDNREG,R3 ;R3=MAX RETRIES/NUMBER OF REGISTERS > ;FORM THE ADDRESS OF THE REGISTER > .ADDR #I$LCHR,R2 ;BUFFER IN R2 > MOV DDCQE,R5 ;LOG THE ERRORS > CALL @$ELPTR > CLR I$LCHR ;CLEAR FOR NEXT TIME > RETURN ;NO NEED TO RESTORE REGISTRS > > .ENDC ;NE ERL$G > > .SBTTL TXINIT - INIT THE TU58 > > ; TXINIT - INITILIZE THE TU58 > ; > ; IF A CHECKSUM ERROR OCCURS, AN UNEXPECTED PACKET TYPE IS RECEIVED, > ; OR SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENS WHICH INDICATES THE TRANSMISSION LINE > ; OR PROTOCOL IS OUT OF SYNC, WE SEND RADIAL SERIAL 'SIGNAL' TO THE DD > ; ('SIGNAL' IS BREAK STATE ON THE COMM LINE). > ; WE TIME BREAK WITH TWO NULL CHARS, THEN SEND TWO INIT CHARS > ; AND WAIT FOR A CONT FLAG TO SAY WE ARE IN SYNC. > ; IF THINGS ARE REALLY SCREWED UP, THIS COULD OCCUR FOREVER. > ; TO AVOID THIS, IF 8 ATTEMPTS ARE MADE TO SIGNAL THE DD > ; DURING ONE TRANSFER, WE QUIT AND RETURN A HARD ERROR. > ;- > > TXINIT: BIC #CS$INT, at TOCSRA ;SET UP KNOWN STATE > BIC #CS$INT, at TICSRA > MOV (SP)+,I$SUBR ;SAVE SUBROUTINE RETURN > 1$: > .IF NE ERL$G > TST I$ABRT ;FORCED ABORT ? > BEQ 2$ ;YES, DON'T LOG AN ERROR > TST FKFLG ;AT FORK LEVEL FOR ERROR LOGGING ? > BNE 3$ ;YES, DON'T FORK AGAIN > CALL FORK ;FORK > 3$: MOV I$ERCT,R2 ;SET UP THE RETRY COUNT > CALL LOGERR ;LOG THE RETRY ATTEMPT > 2$: > .ENDC ;NE ERL$G > > .MTPS #340 ;RAISE PRIORITY TO PREVENT INTERRUPT > MOV #177777, at TOBFRA ;;;SEND ONES FOR TIMING > BIS #, at TOCSRA ;;;SET BREAK AND INTERRUPT ENABLE > CALL OUTRTN ;;;OUTPUT WAIT > MOV #177777,R5 ;SEND RUBOUT FOR TIMING > CALL OUTCHR ; AND WAIT ON IT > BIC #CS$BRK, at TOCSRA ;SHUT OFF BREAK > MOV #R$INIT,R5 ;SEND AN INIT > CALL OUTCHR ; AND WAIT ON IT > MOV #R$INIT,R5 ;TRY TWO JUST IN CASE > CALL OUTCHR ; AND WAIT ON THE SECOND > BIC #CS$INT, at TOCSRA ;TURN OFF OUTPUT INTERRUPTS > TST @TIBFRA ;DUMP THE INPUT CHARACTER TO CLEAR READY > CALL INIRTN ;NOW WAIT FOR THE ANSWER > MOV @TIBFRA,PK$FLG ;GET THE FLAG > BIC #CS$INT, at TICSRA ;NO MORE INPUT INTERRUPTS > DEC I$ERCT ;TOO MANY TIMES? > BLE 9$ ;YES, BAD LINE OR BAD DEVICE > CMPB PK$FLG,#R$CONT ;IS IT CORRECT? > BNE 1$ ;TRY AGAIN > 9$: CALLR @I$SUBR ;RETURN FROM THIS SUBROUTINE > > .SBTTL SNDPKT - SEND RADIAL SERIAL PACKET > > ;+ > ; SNDPKT - SEND RADIAL SERIAL PACKET > ; > ; R1 -> DATA > ; R2 = BYTE COUNT > ; PK$FLG = FLAG BYTE > ; ENTRY IN FORK STATE > ; > ; JSR PC,SNDPKT > ; > ; R0,R3 = UNDEFINED > ; PACKET SENT > ; OUTPUT INTERRUPT DISABLED > ; EXIT IN FORK STATE > ;- > > SNDPKT: MOV (SP)+,I$SUBR ;SAVE SUBROUTINE RETURN > MOV R1,I$MADR ;SAVE ADDRESS > MOVB R2,PK$MBC ;SAVE BYTE COUNT IN PACKET > MOV PK$FLG,PK$CKS ;INITILIZE CHECKSUM > .MTPS #340 ;NO INTERRUPTS > MOVB PK$FLG, at TOBFRA ;;;OUTPUT FIRST BYTE (FLAG) > BIS #CS$INT, at TOCSRA ;;;ENABLE INTERRUPTS > CALL OUTRTN ;;;WAIT FOR OUTPUT INTERRUPT > MOVB PK$MBC,R5 ;OUTPUT MESSAGE BYTE COUNT > CLRB I$TDAT+1 ;CLEAR THE HIGH BYTE OF TEMP WORD > BIS #1, at TOVECA ;SET CARRY => NO .INTEN > CALL OUTCHR ;AND WAIT FOR INTERRUPT > 2$: > .IF NE MMG$T > MOV @#KISAR1,-(SP) ;SAVE OLD PAR1 > MOV I$PAR,@#KISAR1 ;USE OUR OWN VALUE > .ENDC ;NE MMG$T > > MOVB @I$MADR, at TOBFRA ;OUTPUT DATA BYTE > MOVB @I$MADR,I$TDAT ;STORE THE BYTE JUST OUTPUT > > .IF NE MMG$T > MOV (SP)+,@#KISAR1 ;RESTORE SAVED PAR1 > .ENDC ;NE MMG$T > > INC I$MADR ;NEXT ADDRESS > ADD I$TDAT,PK$CKS ;ADD IT TO THE CHECKSUM > ADC PK$CKS ;END AROUND CARRY > SWAB PK$CKS ;SWAP CKECKSUM FOR ODD BYTE > DECB PK$MBC ;ARE WE DONE? > BEQ 3$ ;YES, TIME TO CLEAR THE CARRY > RETURN ;NO, KEEP ON SENDING THOSE CHARACTERS FAST > > 3$: BIC #1, at TOVECA ;CC => DO INTEN > ADD #4$-2$,I$INTR ;SET UP THE RETURN ADDRESS > RETURN ;GO BACK THE WAY YOU CAME > > 4$: MOVB PK$CKS,R5 ;OUTPUT CHECKSUM > CALL OUTCHR ;TIL OUT > MOVB PK$CKS+1,R5 ;HO HUM > CALL OUTCHR ;TIL GONE > BIC #CS$INT, at TOCSRA ;CLEAR INTERRUPTS, FALL THROUGH TO RETURN PKT > > ; PACKET ROUTINE RETURN > > PKTRTN: CALL FORK ;USING SKELETON DRIVER > CALLR @I$SUBR ;AND RETURN FROM SUBROUTINE > > .SBTTL RCVPKT - RECEIVE A RADIAL SERIAL PACKET > > ;+ > ; RCVPKT - RECEIVE A RADIAL SERIAL PACKET > ; > ; R1 -> DATA AREA > ; R2 = BYTE COUNT > ; I$EFLG EXPECTED FLAG BYTE > ; ENTERED IN FORK STATE > ; > ; JSR PC,RCVPKT > ; > ; R0-R3 = UNDEFINED > ; PK$FLG = FLAG RECEIVED > ; I$MBFR = PACKET IF NOT EXPECTED TYPE UNLESS > ; DATA PACKET IN WHICH CASE ABORT IS ENTERED > ; EXIT IN FORK STATE > ;- > > RCVPKT: MOV (R5)+,I$EFLG ;SAVE THE EXPECTED FLAG > MOV R5,I$SUBR ;SAVE SUBROUTINE RETURN > MOV (SP)+,R5 ;RESTORE R5 > MOV R1,I$MADR ;PACKET ADDRESS SPACE > .MTPS #340 ;LOCK OUT INTERRUPTS > CALL INIRTN ;;;AND COME BACK HERE > MOV @TIBFRA,R4 ; SAVE THE CHAR AND THE OVERRUN ERROR > BMI 6$ ; ERROR ABORT THE TRANSFER > MOVB R4,PK$FLG ; SAVE THE CHAR FOR A FLAG > CMPB R4,I$EFLG ;FLAG EXPECTED? > BEQ 2$ ;YES- OK > CMPB R4,#R$MSG ;MESSAGE PACKET ? > BNE 6$ ;NO, THEN UNEXPECTED ERROR > .ADDR #I$MBFR,-(SP) ;MAKE ADDRESS OF MESSAGE BUFFER > MOV (SP)+,I$MADR ;TO MESSAGE ADDRESS > 2$: CMPB R4,#R$CONT ;CONTINUE FLAG? > BEQ PKTRTN ;YES - NO MORE DATA NOW > BIS #1, at TIVECA ;CS => NO .INTEN > CALL INPRTN ;WAIT ON A CHAR > 1$: MOV @TIBFRA,R4 ; SAVE THE CHAR AND THE OVERRUN ERROR > BMI 8$ ; ERROR ABORT THE TRANSFER > MOVB R4,PK$MBC ;IT'S THE MESSAGE COUNT > MOV PK$FLG,PK$CKS ;INITIALIZE THE CHECKSUM > ADD #4$-1$,I$INTR ;SET UP NEW RETURN > 3$: RETURN ;RETURN FROM INTERRUPT > > 4$: MOV @TIBFRA,R4 ;SAVE THE CHAR AND OVERRUN ERROR > BMI 8$ ;ERROR ABORT THE TRANSFER > > .IF NE MMG$T > MOV @#KISAR1,-(SP) ;SAVE CURRENT PAR1 > MOV I$PAR,@#KISAR1 ;USE OUR OWN VALUE > .ENDC ;NE MMG$T > > MOVB R4, at I$MADR ;STORE THE DATA IN BUFFER > > .IF NE MMG$T > MOV (SP)+,@#KISAR1 ;RESTORE PREVIOUS PAR1 > .ENDC ;NE MMG$T > > INC I$MADR ;NEXT ADDRESS > BIC #^C<377>,R4 ;INTERESTED ONLY IN BYTE > ADD PK$CKS,R4 ;ADD IN THE CURRENT CHECKSUM > ADC R4 ;ADD IN END AROUND CARRY > SWAB R4 ;SWAP CHECKSUM BYTES FOR NEXT CHAR > MOV R4,PK$CKS ;SAVE CHECKSUM > DECB PK$MBC ;ANY MORE BYTES? > BNE 3$ ;YES, GO GET 'EM > BIC #1, at TIVECA ;DO .INTEN NEXT INTERRUPT > ADD #7$-4$,I$INTR ;SET UP NEW RETURN POINT > RETURN ;GO BACK THE WAY YOU ENTERED INTERRUPT > > 7$: MOV @TIBFRA,R4 ; SAVE THE CHAR AND THE OVERRUN ERROR > BMI 6$ ; ERROR ABORT THE TRANSFER > MOVB R4,I$TDAT ; GET THE LOW BYTE FIRST > CALL INPRTN ;HIGH BYTE NEXT > MOV @TIBFRA,R4 ; SAVE THE CHAR AND THE OVERRUN ERROR > BMI 6$ ; ERROR ABORT THE TRANSFER > MOVB R4,I$TDAT+1 ; SAVE IT > BIC #CS$INT, at TICSRA ;NO MORE INTERRUPTS > CMP I$TDAT,PK$CKS ;IS IT CORRECT? > BNE 5$ ;CHECKSUM ERROR > CMPB PK$FLG,I$EFLG ;FLAG WE EXPECTED? > BEQ PKTRTN ;YES OK GO TO COMMON RETURN > JMP ERROR ;NO SIGNAL ERROR > > 6$: > .IF NE ERL$G > MOV R4,I$LCHR ;STORE THAT LAST CHAR IN ERROR > .ENDC ;NE ERL$G > > 5$: JMP ABORTR ;NOPE- FATAL ERROR > > 8$: > .IF NE ERL$G > MOV R4,I$LCHR ;SAVE THE CHAR IN ERROR > .ENDC ;NE ERL$G > > ; GET OUT FROM INTERRUPT LEVEL > > BIC #1, at TIVECA ;CLEAR CARRY > .ADDR #ABORTR,-(SP) ;TO ABORT > MOV (SP)+,I$INTR ;AS RETURN > RETURN > > .SBTTL DATA AREA > > ; *ORDER* SOME CODE DEPENDS ON THE CURRENT ORDERING OF THIS DATA > > I$ABRT: .WORD 0 ;ZERO FOR ABORT REQUIRED ON STARTUP > I$ADRS: .WORD 0 ;ADDRESS OF DATA > I$BYTC: .WORD 0 ;BYTE COUNT FOR DATA > I$INTR: .WORD 0 ;INPUT INTERRUPT RETURN > I$ERCT: .WORD 0 ;ERROR RETRY COUNT (COMMUNICATIONS) > I$MADR: .WORD 0 ;MESSAGE ADDRESS > I$TDAT: .WORD 0 ;MESSAGE TEMP DATA > I$SUBR: .WORD 0 ;SUBROUTINE RETURN ADDRESS > > .IF NE ERL$G > I$LCHR: .WORD 0 ;LAST CHARACTER INPUT > .ENDC ;NE ERL$G > > I$EFLG: .WORD 0 ;EXPECTED FLAG BYTE > I$MBFR: ;*ORDER* MESSAGE PACKET BUFFER > I$MOPC: .BYTE 0 ;* MESSAGE OPCODE > I$MSUC: .BYTE 0 ;* SUCCESS CODE FOR END PACKET > .BYTE 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 ;*END* REMAINDER OF PACKET > > .IF NE MMG$T > I$PAR: .WORD 0 ;PAR VALUE TO MAP USER BUFFER > .ENDC ;NE MMG$T > > ; PACKET BUFFER FOR MESSAGE > > ; *ORDER* > > PK$FLG: .BYTE 0 ;FLAG BYTE > PK$MBC: .BYTE 0 ;BYTE COUNT FOR PACKET > PK$OPC: .BYTE 0 ;OPCODE > PK$MOD: .BYTE 0 ;MODIFIER BYTE > PK$UNT: .BYTE 0 ;UNIT > PK$SSQ: .BYTE 0,0,0 ;SWITCH AND SEQUENCE > PK$BCT: .BYTE 0,0 ;BYTE COUNT FOR DATA > PK$RCD: .BYTE 0,0 ;RECORD NUMBER OF START > PK$CKS: .BYTE 0,0 ;CHECKSUM FOR PACKET > > ; *END ORDER* > > .SBTTL BOOTSTRAP READ ROUTINE > > .DRBOT DD,BOOT1,READ > > . = DDBOOT+40 ;PUT THE JUMP BOOT INTO SYSCOM AREA > BOOT1: JMP @#BOOT-DDBOOT ;START THE BOOTSTRAP > > . = DDBOOT+210 > READ: MOV #DDCNT,RTRCNT ;INIT THE RETRY COUNT > MOV @#B$DEVU,DDUNIT ;STORE THE UNIT NUMBER > ASL R1 ;MAKE BYTE COUNT OF WORD COUNT > MOV R0,DDBLK ;MOVE IN THE BLOCK (RECORD) NUMBER > MOV R1,DDBTCT ;MOVE THE BYTE COUNT INTO PACKET > > ; INITIALIZE THE TX CONTROLLER IN CASE > > BRESTR: MOV R2,-(SP) ;SAVE THE START OF BUFFER ON STACK > MOV (PC)+,R0 ;GET THE CSR ADDRESS+4 > BOTCSR: .WORD DD$CSR+4 ;PATCH THIS WORD IF CSR CHANGED (SET) > BIS #CS$BRK, at R0 ;SET BREAK FOR SIGNAL > MOV (PC)+,R3 ;SEND ONES FOR TIMING > .WORD 177777 > CALL BCHROS ;OUTPUT THEM > CONRD1: TSTB @R0 ;READY YET ? > BPL CONRD1 ;NOT YET > BIC #CS$BRK, at R0 ;CLEAR THE BREAK > MOV (PC)+,R3 ;GET TWO INITS > .BYTE R$INIT,R$INIT ;TWO INITS FOR TX > CALL BCHROS ;OUTPUT BOTH INITS > TST -2(R0) ;DUMP OLD CHAR > CALL BICHR ;GET A CHAR FOR INPUT > CMPB R3,#R$CONT ;IS IT A CONTINUE? > BNE BFATAL ;NO > MOV #B$CHK-DDBOOT,R4 ;POINT TO THE CHECKSUM WORD IN PACKET > CLR @R4 ;INITIALIZE IT CHECKSUM > MOV #B$PKT-DDBOOT,R5 ;COMMAND PACKET PATTERN > 1$: MOV (R5)+,R3 ;GET NEXT TWO BYTES TO OUTPUT > ADD R3, at R4 ;ADD INTO THE CHECKSUM > ADC @R4 ;END AROUND > CALL BCHROS ;OUTPUT THE TWO BYTES > CMP R5,R4 ;ALL THE PACKET OUT ? > BLOS 1$ ;NO, KEEP OUTPUTTING > > ; PACKET IS OUT, NOW WAIT FOR DATA PACKET FROM TX > > BRDPKT: CALL BICHP2 ;READ TWO CHARACTERS > MOVB R3,R4 ;BYTE COUNT TO R4 > ;NOTE THE C BIT IS ALREADY CLEARED > RORB R4 ;MAKE IT A WORD COUNT > MOV R1,-(SP) ;INIT THE CHECKSUM > CMPB R1,#R$DATA ;DATA PACKET ? > BNE BEND ;NOPE, END PACKET ? > 2$: CALL @R5 ;INPUT 2 BYTES > MOV R1,(R2)+ ;STORE IN THE BUFFER > ADD R1, at SP ;BUILD THE CHECKSUM > ADC @SP ;END AROUND CARRY > DECB R4 ;DONE ? > BGT 2$ ;IF GT - NO > CALL (R5) ;GET 2 CHECKSUM BYTES > CMP R1,(SP)+ ;CHECKSUM OK ? > BNE BFATAL ;NO > BR BRDPKT ;YES, CONTINUE > > ; IF WE ARE GETTING INIT,INIT,INIT,... ITS OK SINCE THE CODE > ; WILL WORK AND FAIL TO FIND A GOOD SUCCESS CODE OR CHECKSUM > > BEND: CALL (R5) ;TWO CHARS IN > TSTB R3 ;CHECK SUCCESS CODE > BMI BOTH ;NO - DO RETRY OR GIVE ERROR > 1$: ADD R1, at SP ;COMPUTE CHECKSUM > ADC @SP ;END AROUND > CALL (R5) ;INPUT CHECKSUM > SOB R4,1$ ;DONE ? > CMP R1,(SP)+ ;CHECKSUM OK > BNE BFATAL ;WE BLEW AN END PACKET!! > MOV (SP)+,R2 ;RESTORE START OF BUFFER > CLC ;MAKE SURE C-BIT CLEAR UPON RETURN > RETURN ;EXIT > > BOTH: TST (SP)+ ;DUMP THE CHECKSUM WORD > BFATAL: MOV (SP)+,R2 ;RESTORE THE BUFFER ADDRESS > DEC RTRCNT ;ANY RETRIES LEFT ? > BNE BRESTR ;YES, TRY AGAIN > BR BIOERR ;HARD ERROR - PRINT MESSAGE > > .SBTTL BYTE INPUT ROUTINES (BOOT) > > ;+ > ; INPUT BYTE ROUTINES > ; > ; BICHP2 - INPUT BYTE IN R1 AND SWAP THE BYTES. CALLS BICHR TWICE > ; > ; BICHR - INPUT ONE BYTE IN R1 > ; > ; R0 -> TRANSMIT CSR > ; R1 = PARTIAL WORD INPUT, LOW BYTE=0 [BICHR] > ; > ; JSR PC,BICHP2/BICHR > ; > ; R1 = OLD HIGH BYTE (LOW) / NEW BYTE (HIGH) > ; R3 = DATA BYTE > ; R5 = UNDEFINED > ;- > > BICHP2: MOV PC,R5 ;STORE THE ENTRY POINT TO THE > CLR R1 ; FOLLOWING ROUTINE > CALL @PC ;ENTRY FOR TWO BYTES WITHOUT STORE > BICHR: TSTB -4(R0) ;WAIT ON READY > BPL BICHR ;TIL SET > MOVB -2(R0),R3 ;GET BYTE > BISB R3,R1 ;MAKE PARTIAL WORD > SWAB R1 ;AND SET TO MAKE NEXT PART > RETURN > > .SBTTL BYTE OUTPUT ROUTINES (BOOT) > > ;+ > ; OUTPUT BYTE ROUTINES > ; > ; BCHROS - OUTPUT 2 BYTES > ; > ; R0 -> TRANSMIT CSR > ; R3 = BYTES TO OUTPUT (LOW BYTE FIRST) > ; > ; JSR PC,BCHROS > ;- > > BCHROS: CALL @PC ;OUTPUT LOW BYTE > 1$: TSTB @R0 ;WAIT TIL DONE > BPL 1$ > MOVB R3,2(R0) ;AND OUTPUT LOW BYTE > SWAB R3 ;AND SWAP THE WORD > RETURN > > ; COMMAND PACKET PATTERN: > ; ***** THIS PACKET MUST REMAIN IN ORDER ***** > > B$PKT: .BYTE R$MSG,R$MSIZ,R$$RED,0 > DDUNIT: .WORD 0 ;UNIT BOOTED FROM > .BYTE 0,0 > DDBTCT: .WORD 0 ;BYTE COUNT > DDBLK: .WORD 0 ;RECORD NUMBER > B$CHK: .WORD 0 ;CHECKSUM > > RTRCNT: .WORD 0 ;RETRY COUNT > > . = DDBOOT+606 > BOOT: MOV #10000,SP ;SET STACK POINTER > MOV R0,@#B$DEVU ;SAVE THE UNIT NUMBER > MOV R0,-(SP) ;SAVE ON THE STACK TOO > MOV #2,R0 ;READ IN SECOND PART OF BOOT > MOV #<4*400>,R1 ;EVERY BLOCK BUT THE ONE WE ARE IN > MOV #1000,R2 ;INTO LOCATION 1000 > CALL READ ;GO READ IT IN > MOV #READ-DDBOOT,@#B$READ ;STORE START LOCATION FOR READ ROUTINE > MOV #B$DNAM,@#B$DEVN ;STORE RAD50 DEVICE NAME > MOV (SP)+,@#B$DEVU ;STORE THE UNIT NUMBER > JMP @#B$BOOT ;START SECONDARY BOOT > > .DREND DD > > .END > -------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Mar 10 14:42:28 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:42:28 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <377cb432-1749-94e3-3e11-714e9d8e923a@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/03/2017 09:50, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 9 Mar 2017, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> I did an strace and I can confirm that the Linux 'whois' client that I >> used from those various sites sends '-T dn' (or actually -T dn,ace) > I did a little research on that: > The '-T' option is passed to the whois server, it's not a client option. I don't think Tor has suggested it's a client option, and I certainly did not. It's simply part of the string that one particular client knows to send to DENIC, and which at least one other client can be forced (manually) to send. > Intelligent or modern clients know what options to pass to the > appropriate server, in this case '-T dn' to the DENIC whois server. Well, for one value of modern :-) The RIPE client which DENIC themselves recommend people to use, does not do that. It has to be cajoled into sending the "-T dn" along with the query string. > This option is completely legal and was introduced at DENIC in an > attempt to better protect the domain holder's privacy (you know, > different country, different rules). This was many years ago, but it's > still there. Legal in what sense? It's not part of any RFC, and appears to be unique to DENIC. I regularly use dozens of whois servers and not one other honours, let alone requires, that option. Also not that RFC3912 gives a single protocol example which does not require any such option, and refers to RFC954 for normative references - ie, they way it should be done. No -T there either. > RFC 3912 doesn't specify what output the whois server is supposed to > send. Everybody "assumes" that it should be the complete domain > information, but that's simply not the case. That's certainly true. Very few whois servers return all the information; many won't disclose phone numbers, for example. In fact I was surprised how much text /is/ returned by DENIC. > Imposing this assumption is what Mouse does, and that is wrong. I disagree; Mouse (and I) were simply using standard common whois clients and getting either nothing or an error in return to queries. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 10 20:17:46 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 21:17:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <377cb432-1749-94e3-3e11-714e9d8e923a@dunnington.plus.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> <377cb432-1749-94e3-3e11-714e9d8e923a@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <201703110217.VAA27275@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> RFC 3912 doesn't specify what output the whois server is supposed to >> send. Everybody "assumes" that it should be the complete domain >> information, but that's simply not the case. >> Imposing this assumption is what Mouse does, and that is wrong. No, that is not what I'm doing, though I can certainly see how you could come to that conclusion. I'm not expecting/requiring/whatever that the relevant WHOIS server return all available information. But there is a lot of room between that and returning no contact information whatever, which latter is what DENIC does when queried in the usual way, ie, just the domain name without any DENIC-specific text. And that's well on the "unreasonable" side of the line. In my opinion, of course. It's my mailserver, so that's what matters. >> This option is completely legal [...] > Legal in what sense? I make no claim about its legality, in either the RFC sense or the off-net-law sense (except that I believe I am within applicable off-net law). I simply consider it antisocial and uncivilized, and am not interested in accepting mail from any domain within its bailiwick. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 10 20:42:32 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:42:32 -0600 Subject: Tape reel data recovery from MERA-400 polish computer In-Reply-To: <67AC132D-6D57-40F2-963F-42E6A0C2C70A@comcast.net> References: <67AC132D-6D57-40F2-963F-42E6A0C2C70A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <58C36418.8090707@pico-systems.com> On 03/10/2017 12:58 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Mar 10, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> The next extension is to track the tachometer values so that you can detect and compensate for tape stick/drag >> which is absolutely critical for formats that don't self-clock, like NRZI. > NRZI is not self clocking if you consider an individual track in isolation. But it IS if you consider all the tracks at the same time, provided either (a) the data is recorded with odd parity, or (b) the all-zeroes data character isn't used. (a) is the case for 9-track tapes. Yes, but the problem is 800 BPI is about the upper limit on density due to tape skew. I don't know for sure, but I strongly suspect that skew gets worse as the tape gets older. I've seen some tapes that were only a few years old where the skew got very bad. You could put a scope on the skew alignment test point and see the skew pattern pulsing as the supply reel rotated, meaning the tape got differentially stretched while sitting on the reel. But, glad they were so successful in their effort! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 10 20:47:51 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:47:51 -0600 Subject: Tape reel data recovery from MERA-400 polish computer In-Reply-To: <423FBCF3-5846-4CC7-BE49-0AB1A167EEF8@comcast.net> References: <67AC132D-6D57-40F2-963F-42E6A0C2C70A@comcast.net> <7b5cdaeb-7f77-1e9f-29dc-762a1222c5b7@sydex.com> <423FBCF3-5846-4CC7-BE49-0AB1A167EEF8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <58C36557.8040208@pico-systems.com> On 03/10/2017 01:40 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > A stretch with no transitions occurs of course at the > block boundary (the gap). It also apparently occurs in > other spots, for a few bit times: tape marks seem to > consist of two frames separated by a few clocks worth of > blank space. Ditto between data and block check frame(s), > if I remember right. The classic NRZI definition for 800 BPI 9-track is that there is a 2-character gap after the end of the user data block, then the CRC and LRCC characters follow. We had some tapes made on out IBM 360 that had little short gaps all over them, as they had the machine misconfigured and were exceeding memory bandwidth. The IBM could read them fine. I think they only detected the big gap to define the end of the record. Our DEC controllers all used the 2-character gap to detect where the block was ending. No way to fix that if the hardware tape control decided those gaps were the end of data. Jon From chrise at pobox.com Fri Mar 10 21:31:36 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 21:31:36 -0600 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> References: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> Message-ID: On March 9, 2017 9:00:43 PM CST, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >I'm trying to return to the computing days of yesteryear when people >hooked graphics terminals to VAXes. > >I don't have a Tektronix graphics terminal but I do have a MicroVax II >and a laptop running Debian Linux. Up to now I've been using the >laptop >as a console device and connecting to the Vax using minicom. I thought > >that the laptop would be a natural as a Tektronix type terminal. > >On the MicroVax I have just started with PGPLOT and MIIPS, which are >scientific plotting packages that run on Vaxes. > >I would like to use the laptop to emulate a Tek terminal connected to >the Vax through a serial port, but there doesn't seem to be anything >available to do that. Does anyone know of such a thing? > >Doug If you're not wedded to Linux on the laptop, MSDOS Kermit will do pretty good DEC VT-{many} and TEK4014 emulation and would be "period correct" for use with your VAX :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From wilson at dbit.com Fri Mar 10 23:12:41 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 00:12:41 -0500 Subject: RT-11 5.x install tapes? In-Reply-To: References: <17031010194076_44B@slug.flying-disk.com> Message-ID: <20170311051241.GA30253@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 08:56:34PM +0100, J?rg Hoppe via cctalk wrote: >- I saw that neither 5.5 nor 5.6 has no DD, but 5.0 -5.4G and 5.7 has. >Didn't understand the reason. They brought back some long-dead drivers for the final release. >- Also DD.MAC in the 5.0 - 5.4 and 5.7 changes often. >I tested tu58fs with oversized TU58 tape for 5.3 and 5.7, the number of >blocks is always patched into into offset 0x2c, 0x2d in DD.SYS I don't know why you're saying that in hex ... >- I made a working DD.SYS with > .macro DD, > .link DD, >.rename DD.SAV DD.SYS I think you probably want "link dd/nobitmap/exe:dd.sys". The /nobitmap gets rid of some of the junk in block 0. >Do you know how to make DDX.SYS? Must be a conditional MACRO symbol. You want to stick XM.MAC in front of your source file. I can never remember the exact DCL syntax. Something like "mac xm+dd/obj:ddx". John Wilson D Bit From starbase89 at gmail.com Fri Mar 10 23:39:11 2017 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 00:39:11 -0500 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro Message-ID: Greetings! I am trying to connect my IIc to my laptop through ADTPro and am having trouble getting the FT232R adapter I bought from Retro Floppy. The host computer is an HP Elitebook running Windows 7 Pro 64-bit. When I first plugged in the cable, Windows tried and failed to find the device drivers. I downloaded the drivers from the manufacturer of the chip and and ran it. It told me installation was successful and device manager recognized that there was a USB serial port, but reported an Unknown Device and a Base System Device that didn't have drivers installed. I tried to use ADTPro but it didn't see a serial port. Has anyone run into this issue before? Thank you in advance! Joe Giliberti From martin at meiner.ch Fri Mar 10 14:18:16 2017 From: martin at meiner.ch (Martin Meiner) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:18:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Vintage Computer stuff on EBAY.DE In-Reply-To: References: <985986916.2634209.1489130682505.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <985986916.2634209.1489130682505@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1741648349.3065115.1489177096323@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Eric, First of all: Yes - you can log in to eBay.de with your .com account. It is no problem. Why my stuff doesn't show up on ebay.com, I don't know: I haven't seen a setting to make this happen. True, the items are in Switzerland, the country to Chocolate and also where the WWW was invented :) As they are bulky, I cannot just send them out by regular post. Either the buyer comes and picks them here, or they make their arrangements to have them shipped. Incidentally, the 2 PDP11 on sale were bought by me some years back from eBay.com and were located upstate NY, and then shipping was arranged to Switzerland. In other words: come and pick the stuff or arrange for a forwarding company to bring you the stuff. Cheers, Martin From: Eric Christopherson To: Martin Meiner ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 8:41 PM Subject: Re: Vintage Computer stuff on EBAY.DE On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: Hi, Martin. On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 1:24 AM, Martin Meiner via cctalk wrote: Hello friends of vintage computing, As I need the space at home, I am parting from some of my vintage gear. They have all been listed on EBAY.DE. Among others, there are two PDP11 V03 systems, a number of CRT terminals and others. Have a look and see if you find something of interest. Head over to EBAY.DE and search for "PDP11 V03", and then see all my other actions. Just thought I'd let you know.. I'm trying to pull up your ADM-3A (222434344378) on the US eBay site, but it's not showing up there. Do you know why that is? (I've never bought from a foreign eBay domain, so I'm not sure if I can just log in there as I would on the US site, watch items, etc., and have it all propagate from one domain to the other.) Oh, I see it's for local pickup only (and you seem to be in Switzerland), or maybe shipping to Germany:"M?glicherweise kein Versand nach Vereinigte Staaten von Amerika - Lesen Sie die Artikelbeschreibung oder kontaktieren Sie den Verk?ufer, um Informationen zu Versandoptionen zu erhalten."translation via Google:"No shipping to United States of America - Read the item description or contact the seller for shipping information." and: "Da die Wahre raus muss, verkaufe ich den Gegenstand f?r Selbstabholer (oder Transport vom K?ufer selber organisiert) ab EUR 1 ohne Mindestpreis."translation via Google:"Since the truth must go out, I sell the object for self-pickup (or transport organized by the buyer itself) from EUR 1 without a minimum price." -- ? ? ? ? Eric Christopherson From rwiker at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 01:30:07 2017 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 08:30:07 +0100 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 11 Mar 2017, at 06:39 , Joe Giliberti via cctalk wrote: > > Greetings! > I am trying to connect my IIc to my laptop through ADTPro and am > having trouble getting the FT232R adapter I bought from Retro Floppy. > The host computer is an HP Elitebook running Windows 7 Pro 64-bit. > When I first plugged in the cable, Windows tried and failed to find > the device drivers. I downloaded the drivers from the manufacturer of > the chip and and ran it. It told me installation was successful and > device manager recognized that there was a USB serial port, but > reported an Unknown Device and a Base System Device that didn't have > drivers installed. I tried to use ADTPro but it didn't see a serial > port. > > Has anyone run into this issue before? > > Thank you in advance! > Joe Giliberti Could it be that your FT232R adapter is using a counterfeit chip? FTDI changed their drivers some time back so that they refuse to work with chips that are not manufactured by FTDI. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Mar 11 02:57:07 2017 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 09:57:07 +0100 Subject: 10x life size sculpture of a ZX Spectrum PCB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170311085707.GA7136@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 05:14:55PM +0000, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > On 09/03/2017 13:20, "Liam Proven via cctalk" wrote: [...] >> My friend Roger took a picture of this sculpture at the Jerwood Gallery in >> Hastings on the south coast of England: >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/25143643 at N07/32505083723 A Model 3, by far the most photogenic of all the boards because the design has the fewest bugs and isn't covered with bodge wires. Whether the artist knows this is debatable; only collectors tend to care about this stuff and the Model 3 was by far the most common. [...] > Nice attention to detail there but who's going to tell him the wiring on his > modulator looks odd :D It is no doubt faithful to the usual half-arsed assembly job that comes free with every Sinclair machine :) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Mar 11 06:24:54 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 12:24:54 +0000 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/03/2017 05:39, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" wrote: > Greetings! > I am trying to connect my IIc to my laptop through ADTPro and am > having trouble getting the FT232R adapter I bought from Retro Floppy. > The host computer is an HP Elitebook running Windows 7 Pro 64-bit. > When I first plugged in the cable, Windows tried and failed to find > the device drivers. I downloaded the drivers from the manufacturer of > the chip and and ran it. It told me installation was successful and > device manager recognized that there was a USB serial port, but > reported an Unknown Device and a Base System Device that didn't have > drivers installed. I tried to use ADTPro but it didn't see a serial > port. > > Has anyone run into this issue before? Yes, several times though like Raymond says you may be stymied straight away if your adapter is using a fake FTDI chip. Neither of my adapters work with ADTPro largely because of the signals I think it's expecting to get with regard to hardware handshaking. Also they're using CH340/1 chips which are the Chinese FTDI clones. Recently I tried setting up a Raspberry Pi using a genuine FTDI USB breakout adapter that gives all handshake signals but couldn't get that to work either and resorted back to my old faithful XP desktop with real 16550 UART which works every time. My next idea was to get a BusPirate to see exactly what signals were in use on the real serial port but at the time BusPirates weren't available. Now I see they are again so I might have another look. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Mar 11 06:27:52 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 12:27:52 +0000 Subject: 10x life size sculpture of a ZX Spectrum PCB In-Reply-To: <20170311085707.GA7136@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 11/03/2017 08:57, "Peter Corlett via cctalk" wrote: > On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 05:14:55PM +0000, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> On 09/03/2017 13:20, "Liam Proven via cctalk" wrote: > [...] >>> My friend Roger took a picture of this sculpture at the Jerwood Gallery in >>> Hastings on the south coast of England: >>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/25143643 at N07/32505083723 > > A Model 3, by far the most photogenic of all the boards because the design has > the fewest bugs and isn't covered with bodge wires. Whether the artist knows > this is debatable; only collectors tend to care about this stuff and the Model > 3 was by far the most common. > > [...] >> Nice attention to detail there but who's going to tell him the wiring on his >> modulator looks odd :D > > It is no doubt faithful to the usual half-arsed assembly job that comes free > with every Sinclair machine :) His has the regular RF connection and I suspect the red wire is a facsimile of the usual composite mod which is to take the video signal straight out of the RF port after disconnecting the modulator internals... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Mar 11 10:14:11 2017 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 11:14:11 -0500 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> Message-ID: <71d7b48e-1e4a-9f3f-60fb-bfd8c9c1e325@comcast.net> On 3/10/2017 10:31 PM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > On March 9, 2017 9:00:43 PM CST, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> I'm trying to return to the computing days of yesteryear when people >> hooked graphics terminals to VAXes. >> >> I don't have a Tektronix graphics terminal but I do have a MicroVax II >> and a laptop running Debian Linux. Up to now I've been using the >> laptop >> as a console device and connecting to the Vax using minicom. I thought >> >> that the laptop would be a natural as a Tektronix type terminal. >> >> On the MicroVax I have just started with PGPLOT and MIIPS, which are >> scientific plotting packages that run on Vaxes. >> >> I would like to use the laptop to emulate a Tek terminal connected to >> the Vax through a serial port, but there doesn't seem to be anything >> available to do that. Does anyone know of such a thing? >> >> Doug > If you're not wedded to Linux on the laptop, MSDOS Kermit will do pretty good DEC VT-{many} and TEK4014 emulation and would be "period correct" for use with your VAX :-) > > Chris I like using the laptop as a console because I can log my terminal session while I'm installing software, etc. Kermit on debian linux comes without any terminal emulation for some reason. One of the things that I tried was running kermit inside the xterm window, I was able to connect to the Vax but was unable to test the graphics portion. I once had an old laptop that I ran DOS on just to run a PROM programmer. Wish I still had it. From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Mar 11 10:29:46 2017 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 11:29:46 -0500 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> Message-ID: <82361f27-ddfa-f4ec-218e-04a5bacf59e2@comcast.net> I've tried many different things. xterm does do the TEK emulation. Inside of xterm I can connect to the Vax with kermit. seyon is part of Debian and claims to do what I want, but I haven't got it to work yet. Complaints about 'No profile with UUID or name Seyon exists'. Someone else said MS-DOS Kermit will do the emulation. I'm warming up to that, because there is another DOS program called Conex that runs under DOS and will do the emulation of 4014 plus 4105 (you get color!). The laptop I am using is a DELL Precision M4300, has serial port for this. I have a floppy drive for it that replaces the DVD drive... Maybe I'll try that... Doug On 3/10/2017 1:09 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > xterm will do your Tek 4014 emulation. > > > There should be lots of Tek stuff in X11, they were one of the > original consortium members. > > > While you are fishing around for software to run, I have MOVIE.BYU > from one of the guys here. > > > ISSCO's DISPLA should be around, but I have not found it. > > > Look on youtube, there are a bunch of of clips of folks doing just > what you are about to do. > > > Randy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Douglas > Taylor via cctalk > *Sent:* Thursday, March 9, 2017 7:00 PM > *To:* General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > *Subject:* Tektronix Terminal Emulation > I'm trying to return to the computing days of yesteryear when people > hooked graphics terminals to VAXes. > > I don't have a Tektronix graphics terminal but I do have a MicroVax II > and a laptop running Debian Linux. Up to now I've been using the laptop > as a console device and connecting to the Vax using minicom. I thought > that the laptop would be a natural as a Tektronix type terminal. > > On the MicroVax I have just started with PGPLOT and MIIPS, which are > scientific plotting packages that run on Vaxes. > > I would like to use the laptop to emulate a Tek terminal connected to > the Vax through a serial port, but there doesn't seem to be anything > available to do that. Does anyone know of such a thing? > > Doug > > From tingox at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 11:08:01 2017 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 18:08:01 +0100 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: <71d7b48e-1e4a-9f3f-60fb-bfd8c9c1e325@comcast.net> References: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> <71d7b48e-1e4a-9f3f-60fb-bfd8c9c1e325@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I like using the laptop as a console because I can log my terminal session > while I'm installing software, etc. Kermit on debian linux comes without > any terminal emulation for some reason. In general, kermit under Linux (and other unix-like operating systems) expect you to start kermit from the terminal emulator of your choice, and "inherits" whatever terminal emulation you have started it from. FWIW, I've successfully done vt100 with kermit started from xterm. > One of the things that I tried was > running kermit inside the xterm window, I was able to connect to the Vax but > was unable to test the graphics portion. Are you sure that your xterm has Tektronix graphics emlation compiled in / enabled? I haven't tested graphics emulation yet, because I don't have a vintage machine that supports it. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Mar 11 11:39:19 2017 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 12:39:19 -0500 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: References: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> <71d7b48e-1e4a-9f3f-60fb-bfd8c9c1e325@comcast.net> Message-ID: <136dc401-625e-53b5-9a45-5f71ab2ab6cc@comcast.net> On 3/11/2017 12:08 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk > wrote: >> I like using the laptop as a console because I can log my terminal session >> while I'm installing software, etc. Kermit on debian linux comes without >> any terminal emulation for some reason. > In general, kermit under Linux (and other unix-like operating systems) > expect you to start kermit from the terminal emulator of your choice, > and "inherits" whatever terminal emulation you have started it from. > FWIW, I've successfully done vt100 with kermit started from xterm. This is one of the things I will revisit. I'm still trying to compile programs on the vax that are designed to plot directly to a tek terminal connected to a serial port. PGPLOT has a very nicely constructed set of *.com files for VMS but some of the routines are for DECW$. I can't run DecWindows on a MicroVax II with 11MB of memory, so I loaded the basic support files for DecWindows. The problem before was that PGPLOT wanted to link to some of the DECW libraries and use some of the DECW header files. I hope they are there now. We will see. > >> One of the things that I tried was >> running kermit inside the xterm window, I was able to connect to the Vax but >> was unable to test the graphics portion. > Are you sure that your xterm has Tektronix graphics emlation compiled > in / enabled? > I haven't tested graphics emulation yet, because I don't have a > vintage machine that supports it. Yes, xterm on debian linux works fine. I'm trying to test exactly that, run programs on a vintage computer that produce graphs on an emulated terminal. > HTH From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Mar 11 11:47:47 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 10:47:47 -0700 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: <136dc401-625e-53b5-9a45-5f71ab2ab6cc@comcast.net> References: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> <71d7b48e-1e4a-9f3f-60fb-bfd8c9c1e325@comcast.net> <136dc401-625e-53b5-9a45-5f71ab2ab6cc@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/2017 12:08 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> I like using the laptop as a console because I can log my terminal >>> session >>> while I'm installing software, etc. Kermit on debian linux comes without >>> any terminal emulation for some reason. >> >> In general, kermit under Linux (and other unix-like operating systems) >> expect you to start kermit from the terminal emulator of your choice, >> and "inherits" whatever terminal emulation you have started it from. >> FWIW, I've successfully done vt100 with kermit started from xterm. > > This is one of the things I will revisit. I'm still trying to compile > programs on the vax that are designed to plot directly to a tek terminal > connected to a serial port. PGPLOT has a very nicely constructed set of > *.com files for VMS but some of the routines are for DECW$. I can't run > DecWindows on a MicroVax II with 11MB of memory, so I loaded the basic > support files for DecWindows. The problem before was that PGPLOT wanted to > link to some of the DECW libraries and use some of the DECW header files. I > hope they are there now. We will see. On the VAXstation II that I ran in college for one of the departments we would do TEK plots all the time. The programs that did them would send an escape sequence that would kick the normally VT100-ish terminal emulator on screen into Tektronics 401x emulation and then send the sequence of tektronics escape sequences to do the plot. We'd then take a screen shot of the plot if we needed to print it quickly (but at low quality) on the laser printer, or we'd fire up the Tektronics Plotter and redirect the output there if we were doing photo-ready for a conference or paper. This was all on VMS 5.4 running DISSPLA... We did have 16MB of memory, though.... Warner From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 11 12:43:27 2017 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 18:43:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation References: <83327368.3654776.1489257807489.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <83327368.3654776.1489257807489@mail.yahoo.com> On Sat, 3/11/17, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > One of the things that I tried > was running kermit inside the xterm window, I was able to > connect to the Vax but was unable to test the graphics portion. There are two things that come to mind as possibilities. First, if xterm isn't getting switched into Tek mode, who knows what you'll see displayed. To force it into Tek mode, start it with the -t option or in a vt100 xterm window do a ctrl-middle click and you'll get a menu where you can select "Switch to Tek Mode." The other possibility is that depending on setting, kermit might not be 8-bit clean. IIRC the Tek escape codes need the terminal line to be in 8-bit mode. When I'm connecting to a device speaking the Tek escape codes, I usually use cu instead, and it's generally worked pretty well for me. BLS From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 11 13:12:57 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 13:12:57 -0600 Subject: server downtime Message-ID: <008901d29a9b$7e4fc0d0$7aef4270$@classiccmp.org> The classiccmp host will be going down tonight around 8pm. It should be back up by 2am tomorrow. This will affect the mailing list as well as any and all websites hosted by the classiccmp server. While we provide DNS for most of those websites, there are a few that still maintain their own DNS elsewhere. For those folks, the new IP address of the server will be 71.91.242.75 Best, J From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Mar 11 14:52:55 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 12:52:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Mar 2017, Raymond Wiker via cctalk wrote: > > Could it be that your FT232R adapter is using a counterfeit chip? FTDI > changed their drivers some time back so that they refuse to work with > chips that are not manufactured by FTDI. It's not that the driver wouldn't work, it would actively brick the device! I hope that whatever suit at FTDI that thought bricking a customer's device was a good idea, dies a slow and painful death. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sat Mar 11 15:24:03 2017 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 15:24:03 -0600 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you stare at the Device Manager and pull the USB/Serial adapter do the "Unknown Device" and "Base System Device" disappear? Who is the manufacturer of the USB/Serial cable? On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:39 PM, Joe Giliberti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Greetings! > I am trying to connect my IIc to my laptop through ADTPro and am > having trouble getting the FT232R adapter I bought from Retro Floppy. > The host computer is an HP Elitebook running Windows 7 Pro 64-bit. > When I first plugged in the cable, Windows tried and failed to find > the device drivers. I downloaded the drivers from the manufacturer of > the chip and and ran it. It told me installation was successful and > device manager recognized that there was a USB serial port, but > reported an Unknown Device and a Base System Device that didn't have > drivers installed. I tried to use ADTPro but it didn't see a serial > port. > > Has anyone run into this issue before? > > Thank you in advance! > Joe Giliberti > From starbase89 at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 15:52:43 2017 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 16:52:43 -0500 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The cable is branded "Ugreen." I've had difficulties with USB to RS232 adapters in the past, which is why I bought it from the ADTPro website. I figured that it would be more likely to work straight away. When I stare at device manager and pull out the cable. nothing happens. If I scan for hardware changes, the system still sees "unknown device" and "base system device" and tries again to find drivers for them. Device manager is showing an installed USB to serial adapter, but these others won't go away. On a venture to the grocery store today, I stopped in at a Radioshack which was having a liquidation sale. I bought their "Gigaware" USB to serial cable for a decent discount at $20. As I understand it, this one uses a Prolific chipset which can occasionally be troublesome.. Thankfully, there appear to be drivers for it specifically for Windows 7. I'll give it a shot and report back. Thanks for your're assistance! Joe Giliberti From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Mar 11 16:24:42 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 22:24:42 +0000 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/03/2017 21:52, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" wrote: > The cable is branded "Ugreen." I've had difficulties with USB to RS232 > adapters in the past, which is why I bought it from the ADTPro > website. I figured that it would be more likely to work straight away. I've had difficulties with everything I've used from ugreen, the latest being an HDMI-DVA adapter which just didn't work 100%. Trouble is with some of these ebay buys you don't know who made it until it lands on your mat. > On a venture to the grocery store today, I stopped in at a Radioshack > which was having a liquidation sale. I bought their "Gigaware" USB to > serial cable for a decent discount at $20. As I understand it, this > one uses a Prolific chipset which can occasionally be troublesome.. > Thankfully, there appear to be drivers for it specifically for Windows > 7. Prolific! That's the chipset name I was trying to remember earlier. Seems that most ADTPro folks have more success with that one than the others. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Mar 11 15:11:54 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 21:11:54 +0000 (WET) Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: <136dc401-625e-53b5-9a45-5f71ab2ab6cc@comcast.net> References: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> <71d7b48e-1e4a-9f3f-60fb-bfd8c9c1e325@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01QBV3TJJQBC002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> > > I can't run DecWindows on a MicroVax II with 11MB of memory, so I loaded > the basic support files for DecWindows. > Are you sure? I can run the old XUI DecWindows on VMS 5.5-2 (the newest VMS that will support XUI) in monochrome on a VaxStation 2000 with just 6MB. It's not very fast but it works. As far as I recall, it worked in colour when it had a GPX card installed. Regards, Peter Coghlan From starbase89 at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 16:48:37 2017 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 17:48:37 -0500 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Okay, it's working the ugreen one. I did a stupid and dropped the RXTXComm file in the wrong place. Well, since all sales are final at Radioshack these days, I've got an extra cable... Thanks again. If I didn't look into the things suggested, I probably wouldn't have found my screw-up! Joe Giliberti On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 11/03/2017 21:52, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" > wrote: > >> The cable is branded "Ugreen." I've had difficulties with USB to RS232 >> adapters in the past, which is why I bought it from the ADTPro >> website. I figured that it would be more likely to work straight away. > > I've had difficulties with everything I've used from ugreen, the latest > being an HDMI-DVA adapter which just didn't work 100%. Trouble is with some > of these ebay buys you don't know who made it until it lands on your mat. > >> On a venture to the grocery store today, I stopped in at a Radioshack >> which was having a liquidation sale. I bought their "Gigaware" USB to >> serial cable for a decent discount at $20. As I understand it, this >> one uses a Prolific chipset which can occasionally be troublesome.. >> Thankfully, there appear to be drivers for it specifically for Windows >> 7. > > Prolific! That's the chipset name I was trying to remember earlier. Seems > that most ADTPro folks have more success with that one than the others. > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Mar 11 16:41:16 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 22:41:16 +0000 (WET) Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01QBV4I5Y14K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> > > I'm trying to return to the computing days of yesteryear when people > hooked graphics terminals to VAXes. > > I don't have a Tektronix graphics terminal but I do have a MicroVax II > and a laptop running Debian Linux. Up to now I've been using the laptop > as a console device and connecting to the Vax using minicom. I thought > that the laptop would be a natural as a Tektronix type terminal. > I would suggest using a terminal port other than the console port on the VAX to display graphics (and especially for file transfer). I'm not sure about the MicroVax II but on some other VAX and Alpha machines, the console port may be less capable than ordinary terminal ports in the way of buffering, flow control, 8 bit support and so on. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Mar 11 17:24:44 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 23:24:44 +0000 Subject: HP Portable Plus 110 available in Ireland Message-ID: Hi folks, Got this email from Shane in Ireland who'd like to trade a Portable Plus for anything videogaming wise, original message below so please reply to Shane if you're interested: ------------------------------------------ > Message from Shane Hurley (shanejah at hotmail.com) on February 27th, 2017 at > 10:37PM (GMT). > > Hey there! > > I currently have a Hewlett Packard Portable Plus but NO POWER SUPPLY! I > actually have the original leather case for it too, for whatever that's worth. > > Here's the ML & SL: > > Model Number 45711F > > Serial Number 2629A15219 > > I know these things can be of big value to some folk but not me and I'd love > for it to go somewhere where it could be used or loved. > > If this is something you'd like, I'd be happy to trade for anything video game > related. I have a small retro games stall open on weekends here in Ireland and > am always on the lookout for ways to make it work. I'm sure you understand the > way it can be. > ------------------------------------------- Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sat Mar 11 18:13:46 2017 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 00:13:46 +0000 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great news! On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 4:49 PM Joe Giliberti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Okay, it's working the ugreen one. I did a stupid and dropped the > RXTXComm file in the wrong place. > Well, since all sales are final at Radioshack these days, I've got an > extra cable... > > Thanks again. If I didn't look into the things suggested, I probably > wouldn't have found my screw-up! > > Joe Giliberti > > On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: > > On 11/03/2017 21:52, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" > > wrote: > > > >> The cable is branded "Ugreen." I've had difficulties with USB to RS232 > >> adapters in the past, which is why I bought it from the ADTPro > >> website. I figured that it would be more likely to work straight away. > > > > I've had difficulties with everything I've used from ugreen, the latest > > being an HDMI-DVA adapter which just didn't work 100%. Trouble is with > some > > of these ebay buys you don't know who made it until it lands on your mat. > > > >> On a venture to the grocery store today, I stopped in at a Radioshack > >> which was having a liquidation sale. I bought their "Gigaware" USB to > >> serial cable for a decent discount at $20. As I understand it, this > >> one uses a Prolific chipset which can occasionally be troublesome.. > >> Thankfully, there appear to be drivers for it specifically for Windows > >> 7. > > > > Prolific! That's the chipset name I was trying to remember earlier. Seems > > that most ADTPro folks have more success with that one than the others. > > > > -- > > Adrian/Witchy > > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > > collection? > > > > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 18:29:29 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 16:29:29 -0800 Subject: 10x life size sculpture of a ZX Spectrum PCB In-Reply-To: <20170311085707.GA7136@mooli.org.uk> References: <20170311085707.GA7136@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <59F63CB6-0605-4116-BE08-6E2029B19CAB@gmail.com> Wow. Very nicely done. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Peter Corlett , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 12:57 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: 10x life size sculpture of a ZX Spectrum PCB On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 05:14:55PM +0000, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: On 09/03/2017 13:20, "Liam Proven via cctalk" wrote: [...] My friend Roger took a picture of this sculpture at the Jerwood Gallery in Hastings on the south coast of England: https://www.flickr.com/photos/25143643 at N07/32505083723 A Model 3, by far the most photogenic of all the boards because the design has the fewest bugs and isn't covered with bodge wires. Whether the artist knows this is debatable; only collectors tend to care about this stuff and the Model 3 was by far the most common. [...] Nice attention to detail there but who's going to tell him the wiring on his modulator looks odd :D It is no doubt faithful to the usual half-arsed assembly job that comes free with every Sinclair machine :) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Mar 11 19:10:52 2017 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 20:10:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: <01QBV4I5Y14K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01QBV4I5Y14K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <201703120110.UAA12645@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm not sure about the MicroVax II but on some other VAX and Alpha > machines, the console port may be less capable than ordinary terminal > ports in the way of buffering, flow control, 8 bit support and so on. The KA630, the MicroVAX-II CPU board (which includes the console serial port), has a relatively limited serial port. For example, it has only a byte or two of buffering in each direction, it cannot be used directly from userland even if the kernel wants to let it (it is accessed with MFPR and MTPR instructions), it has no software baudrate control, and various other limitations. These have concomitant benefits for console use, such as no software setup being required to get small numbers of characters transferred. But they do rather cripple it for voluminous data transfer. If you have an at-least-mildly-smart serial port card (eg, with substantial hardware buffering capability, and/or with DMA capability), you will probably get better performance with it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Mar 11 19:19:36 2017 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 20:19:36 -0500 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: <01QBV3TJJQBC002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> References: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> <71d7b48e-1e4a-9f3f-60fb-bfd8c9c1e325@comcast.net> <01QBV3TJJQBC002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <6407e82d-866b-de53-29de-98bcb18b0939@comcast.net> On 3/11/2017 4:11 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> I can't run DecWindows on a MicroVax II with 11MB of memory, so I >> loaded >> the basic support files for DecWindows. > > Are you sure? > > I can run the old XUI DecWindows on VMS 5.5-2 (the newest VMS that > will support > XUI) in monochrome on a VaxStation 2000 with just 6MB. It's not very > fast > but it works. As far as I recall, it worked in colour when it had a > GPX card > installed. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan You know, I don't actually know... I have run DecWindows from a microVax 4000-400 with ~350MB of memory. I assumed that the burden would be too much for the smaller Vax. From starbase89 at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 19:52:33 2017 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 20:52:33 -0500 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not great news :( The computer recognized the serial port on COM5 and ADTPro says that it is connected. I am using the null modem cable from RetroFloppy for the //c and the Radioshack cable with the Prolific chipset (I switched over to this one because I thought this problem was caused by the other cable.) I set the working directory in ADT where the DSK files are and set the baud rate in Windows, ADT on the PC and ADT on the //c all to 19200. When I boot up the //c, I select (R)ecieve, punch in the filename, hit enter and...Host Timeout. Any idea what might not be working now? I really appreciate everyone's help Joe Giliberti On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 7:13 PM, Mike Whalen wrote: > Great news! > > > On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 4:49 PM Joe Giliberti via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Okay, it's working the ugreen one. I did a stupid and dropped the >> RXTXComm file in the wrong place. >> Well, since all sales are final at Radioshack these days, I've got an >> extra cable... >> >> Thanks again. If I didn't look into the things suggested, I probably >> wouldn't have found my screw-up! >> >> Joe Giliberti >> >> On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Adrian Graham >> wrote: >> > On 11/03/2017 21:52, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" >> > wrote: >> > >> >> The cable is branded "Ugreen." I've had difficulties with USB to RS232 >> >> adapters in the past, which is why I bought it from the ADTPro >> >> website. I figured that it would be more likely to work straight away. >> > >> > I've had difficulties with everything I've used from ugreen, the latest >> > being an HDMI-DVA adapter which just didn't work 100%. Trouble is with >> > some >> > of these ebay buys you don't know who made it until it lands on your >> > mat. >> > >> >> On a venture to the grocery store today, I stopped in at a Radioshack >> >> which was having a liquidation sale. I bought their "Gigaware" USB to >> >> serial cable for a decent discount at $20. As I understand it, this >> >> one uses a Prolific chipset which can occasionally be troublesome.. >> >> Thankfully, there appear to be drivers for it specifically for Windows >> >> 7. >> > >> > Prolific! That's the chipset name I was trying to remember earlier. >> > Seems >> > that most ADTPro folks have more success with that one than the others. >> > >> > -- >> > Adrian/Witchy >> > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >> > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >> > collection? >> > >> > From starbase89 at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 20:40:37 2017 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 21:40:37 -0500 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Any attempt to connect to view, send or receive results in a host timeout On Mar 11, 2017 9:15 PM, "Mike Whalen" wrote: > Are you getting host timeout when you attempt to list a directory? > > > On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 7:53 PM Joe Giliberti > wrote: > >> Not great news :( >> The computer recognized the serial port on COM5 and ADTPro says that >> it is connected. I am using the null modem cable from RetroFloppy for >> the //c and the Radioshack cable with the Prolific chipset (I switched >> over to this one because I thought this problem was caused by the >> other cable.) I set the working directory in ADT where the DSK files >> are and set the baud rate in Windows, ADT on the PC and ADT on the //c >> all to 19200. When I boot up the //c, I select (R)ecieve, punch in the >> filename, hit enter and...Host Timeout. >> Any idea what might not be working now? >> >> I really appreciate everyone's help >> >> Joe Giliberti >> >> On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 7:13 PM, Mike Whalen >> wrote: >> > Great news! >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 4:49 PM Joe Giliberti via cctalk >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Okay, it's working the ugreen one. I did a stupid and dropped the >> >> RXTXComm file in the wrong place. >> >> Well, since all sales are final at Radioshack these days, I've got an >> >> extra cable... >> >> >> >> Thanks again. If I didn't look into the things suggested, I probably >> >> wouldn't have found my screw-up! >> >> >> >> Joe Giliberti >> >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Adrian Graham >> >> wrote: >> >> > On 11/03/2017 21:52, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> The cable is branded "Ugreen." I've had difficulties with USB to >> RS232 >> >> >> adapters in the past, which is why I bought it from the ADTPro >> >> >> website. I figured that it would be more likely to work straight >> away. >> >> > >> >> > I've had difficulties with everything I've used from ugreen, the >> latest >> >> > being an HDMI-DVA adapter which just didn't work 100%. Trouble is >> with >> >> > some >> >> > of these ebay buys you don't know who made it until it lands on your >> >> > mat. >> >> > >> >> >> On a venture to the grocery store today, I stopped in at a >> Radioshack >> >> >> which was having a liquidation sale. I bought their "Gigaware" USB >> to >> >> >> serial cable for a decent discount at $20. As I understand it, this >> >> >> one uses a Prolific chipset which can occasionally be troublesome.. >> >> >> Thankfully, there appear to be drivers for it specifically for >> Windows >> >> >> 7. >> >> > >> >> > Prolific! That's the chipset name I was trying to remember earlier. >> >> > Seems >> >> > that most ADTPro folks have more success with that one than the >> others. >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Adrian/Witchy >> >> > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >> >> > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >> >> > collection? >> >> > >> >> > >> > From starbase89 at gmail.com Sun Mar 12 00:24:39 2017 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:24:39 -0500 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All right, ADT apparently thinks that it's connected all the time, even when the cable is disconnected from the //c. I will continue troubleshooting tomorrow. Goodnight! On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 9:40 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Any attempt to connect to view, send or receive results in a host timeout > > On Mar 11, 2017 9:15 PM, "Mike Whalen" wrote: >> >> Are you getting host timeout when you attempt to list a directory? >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 7:53 PM Joe Giliberti >> wrote: >>> >>> Not great news :( >>> The computer recognized the serial port on COM5 and ADTPro says that >>> it is connected. I am using the null modem cable from RetroFloppy for >>> the //c and the Radioshack cable with the Prolific chipset (I switched >>> over to this one because I thought this problem was caused by the >>> other cable.) I set the working directory in ADT where the DSK files >>> are and set the baud rate in Windows, ADT on the PC and ADT on the //c >>> all to 19200. When I boot up the //c, I select (R)ecieve, punch in the >>> filename, hit enter and...Host Timeout. >>> Any idea what might not be working now? >>> >>> I really appreciate everyone's help >>> >>> Joe Giliberti >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 7:13 PM, Mike Whalen >>> wrote: >>> > Great news! >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 4:49 PM Joe Giliberti via cctalk >>> > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Okay, it's working the ugreen one. I did a stupid and dropped the >>> >> RXTXComm file in the wrong place. >>> >> Well, since all sales are final at Radioshack these days, I've got an >>> >> extra cable... >>> >> >>> >> Thanks again. If I didn't look into the things suggested, I probably >>> >> wouldn't have found my screw-up! >>> >> >>> >> Joe Giliberti >>> >> >>> >> On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Adrian Graham >>> >> wrote: >>> >> > On 11/03/2017 21:52, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" >>> >> > >>> >> > wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> >> The cable is branded "Ugreen." I've had difficulties with USB to >>> >> >> RS232 >>> >> >> adapters in the past, which is why I bought it from the ADTPro >>> >> >> website. I figured that it would be more likely to work straight >>> >> >> away. >>> >> > >>> >> > I've had difficulties with everything I've used from ugreen, the >>> >> > latest >>> >> > being an HDMI-DVA adapter which just didn't work 100%. Trouble is >>> >> > with >>> >> > some >>> >> > of these ebay buys you don't know who made it until it lands on your >>> >> > mat. >>> >> > >>> >> >> On a venture to the grocery store today, I stopped in at a >>> >> >> Radioshack >>> >> >> which was having a liquidation sale. I bought their "Gigaware" USB >>> >> >> to >>> >> >> serial cable for a decent discount at $20. As I understand it, this >>> >> >> one uses a Prolific chipset which can occasionally be troublesome.. >>> >> >> Thankfully, there appear to be drivers for it specifically for >>> >> >> Windows >>> >> >> 7. >>> >> > >>> >> > Prolific! That's the chipset name I was trying to remember earlier. >>> >> > Seems >>> >> > that most ADTPro folks have more success with that one than the >>> >> > others. >>> >> > >>> >> > -- >>> >> > Adrian/Witchy >>> >> > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >>> >> > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >>> >> > collection? >>> >> > >>> >> > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 12 01:10:50 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:10:50 -0600 Subject: server up Message-ID: <001401d29aff$c7cdd8a0$576989e0$@classiccmp.org> The server seems to be alive at the new IP, mail flowing, websites up.. Still checking a few things, but appears complete. J From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sat Mar 11 20:15:07 2017 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 02:15:07 +0000 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are you getting host timeout when you attempt to list a directory? On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 7:53 PM Joe Giliberti wrote: > Not great news :( > The computer recognized the serial port on COM5 and ADTPro says that > it is connected. I am using the null modem cable from RetroFloppy for > the //c and the Radioshack cable with the Prolific chipset (I switched > over to this one because I thought this problem was caused by the > other cable.) I set the working directory in ADT where the DSK files > are and set the baud rate in Windows, ADT on the PC and ADT on the //c > all to 19200. When I boot up the //c, I select (R)ecieve, punch in the > filename, hit enter and...Host Timeout. > Any idea what might not be working now? > > I really appreciate everyone's help > > Joe Giliberti > > On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 7:13 PM, Mike Whalen > wrote: > > Great news! > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 4:49 PM Joe Giliberti via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> Okay, it's working the ugreen one. I did a stupid and dropped the > >> RXTXComm file in the wrong place. > >> Well, since all sales are final at Radioshack these days, I've got an > >> extra cable... > >> > >> Thanks again. If I didn't look into the things suggested, I probably > >> wouldn't have found my screw-up! > >> > >> Joe Giliberti > >> > >> On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Adrian Graham > >> wrote: > >> > On 11/03/2017 21:52, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> The cable is branded "Ugreen." I've had difficulties with USB to > RS232 > >> >> adapters in the past, which is why I bought it from the ADTPro > >> >> website. I figured that it would be more likely to work straight > away. > >> > > >> > I've had difficulties with everything I've used from ugreen, the > latest > >> > being an HDMI-DVA adapter which just didn't work 100%. Trouble is with > >> > some > >> > of these ebay buys you don't know who made it until it lands on your > >> > mat. > >> > > >> >> On a venture to the grocery store today, I stopped in at a Radioshack > >> >> which was having a liquidation sale. I bought their "Gigaware" USB to > >> >> serial cable for a decent discount at $20. As I understand it, this > >> >> one uses a Prolific chipset which can occasionally be troublesome.. > >> >> Thankfully, there appear to be drivers for it specifically for > Windows > >> >> 7. > >> > > >> > Prolific! That's the chipset name I was trying to remember earlier. > >> > Seems > >> > that most ADTPro folks have more success with that one than the > others. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Adrian/Witchy > >> > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > >> > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > >> > collection? > >> > > >> > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 22:49:49 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 20:49:49 -0800 Subject: DEC DW11 information? In-Reply-To: <83f609fe-e8ea-5e0a-14ff-73a9030f0da2@gmail.com> References: <2818965f-111f-c599-523b-20edeaf615c8@gmail.com> <83f609fe-e8ea-5e0a-14ff-73a9030f0da2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <95fa0b40-df0b-c1db-c22a-1c5f17a46926@gmail.com> On 3/2/17 10:26 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 2/27/17 10:02 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > >> >From memory it handles 18 bit addressing (not 22, of course), >> interrupts and >> NPR (DMA). The Unibus side (quad card) goes in any SPC slot, you have to >> remove the NPG jumper. It links with a pair of 40 way ribbon cables >> to the >> Qbus board (dual height) which goes in the 'first' slot of a Qbus >> backplane, >> where the CPU board wound normally go. AFAIK there are no real >> restrictions >> on the Qbus backplane, I have used one to hang a MINC chassis off a >> Unibus >> processor. >> >> I seems to be transparent in operation. You just acccess Qbus devices >> at their >> normal addresses. > Cool. I managed to snag an M8217+M9403 so all I need to do is track > down/build some cabling to tie the two together (any idea what the max > length of these cables is?). I'm kind of hoping I can use it to run a > QBus SCSI controller, amongst other things. I'll report back my > findings... Just to bring some closure to this thread, I had some time this evening to get everything hooked up: A PDP-11/34 connected to an SB11 QBus chassis via a DW11-B. And I've successfully booted XXDP and Ultrix-11 from a CMD CQD-200 SCSI controller installed in the SB11. Seems to work perfectly. Thanks for the input, everyone! - Josh From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 11 20:21:56 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 20:21:56 -0600 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: <6407e82d-866b-de53-29de-98bcb18b0939@comcast.net> References: <71dcab3b-4be8-5cb9-d1f4-78903be1a400@comcast.net> <71d7b48e-1e4a-9f3f-60fb-bfd8c9c1e325@comcast.net> <01QBV3TJJQBC002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <6407e82d-866b-de53-29de-98bcb18b0939@comcast.net> Message-ID: <58C4B0C4.1020002@pico-systems.com> On 03/11/2017 07:19 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/2017 4:11 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I can't run DecWindows on a MicroVax II with 11MB of >>> memory, so I loaded >>> the basic support files for DecWindows. >> >> Are you sure? >> >> I can run the old XUI DecWindows on VMS 5.5-2 (the newest >> VMS that will support >> XUI) in monochrome on a VaxStation 2000 with just 6MB. >> It's not very fast >> but it works. As far as I recall, it worked in colour >> when it had a GPX card >> installed. >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan > > You know, I don't actually know... > > I have run DecWindows from a microVax 4000-400 with ~350MB > of memory. I assumed that the burden would be too much > for the smaller Vax. > > I ran DecWindows on a MicroVAX-II with probably 1 MB of memory. That may have been a bit weak, I did upgrade the system to 5 MB. It ran fine. First with a VCB-01 (monochrome) and then updated to a VCB-02 (8-bit color). Jon From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Mar 11 22:50:27 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 21:50:27 -0700 Subject: Tektronix Terminal Emulation In-Reply-To: <201703120110.UAA12645@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <01QBV4I5Y14K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <201703120110.UAA12645@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Mouse via cctalk wrote: >> I'm not sure about the MicroVax II but on some other VAX and Alpha >> machines, the console port may be less capable than ordinary terminal >> ports in the way of buffering, flow control, 8 bit support and so on. > > The KA630, the MicroVAX-II CPU board (which includes the console serial > port), has a relatively limited serial port. For example, it has only > a byte or two of buffering in each direction, it cannot be used > directly from userland even if the kernel wants to let it (it is > accessed with MFPR and MTPR instructions), it has no software baudrate > control, and various other limitations. > > These have concomitant benefits for console use, such as no software > setup being required to get small numbers of characters transferred. > But they do rather cripple it for voluminous data transfer. If you > have an at-least-mildly-smart serial port card (eg, with substantial > hardware buffering capability, and/or with DMA capability), you will > probably get better performance with it. It was 8-bit clean. And did allow for connection of a printer to it, though a relatively simple one. We wound up in the end, though, not using it except in a pinch. The limitations were just a bit too much to give reliable behavior for anything other than having a DECwriter II or VT220 connected to it. We had a 4-port serial card to connect the plotter, and a few other specialty devices we needed for our VaxStation II (which had the same KA630 CPU board and a graphics board). Warner From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 13:16:29 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 14:16:29 -0500 Subject: Aquired PDP 11/23 Message-ID: This past week I managed to pick up a pdp 11/23. Excited to finally have a qbus system, it is quite small compared to my 11/34. Attached are some pictures showing what i picked up. I am in the process of stress testing the power supply before turning it on. The whole machine was quite dirty and is being cleaned out as well. A whole corner of the machine corroded away, thankfully there is a metal shop around the corner with a press, I am going to replace the corroded sides. https://postimg.org/gallery/11t1el096/ --Devin From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Mar 12 04:28:22 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:28:22 +0000 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/03/2017 01:52, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" wrote: > Not great news :( > The computer recognized the serial port on COM5 and ADTPro says that > it is connected. I am using the null modem cable from RetroFloppy for > the //c and the Radioshack cable with the Prolific chipset (I switched > over to this one because I thought this problem was caused by the > other cable.) I set the working directory in ADT where the DSK files > are and set the baud rate in Windows, ADT on the PC and ADT on the //c > all to 19200. When I boot up the //c, I select (R)ecieve, punch in the > filename, hit enter and...Host Timeout. > Any idea what might not be working now? > > I really appreciate everyone's help > You can check if the PC is talking to the //c by doing a bare metal speediboot - this will check the comms are working: http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/bootstrap.html Can you do a lookback test on the USB adapter by looping pins 2&3 then using PuTTY to talk to itself? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 12 05:00:06 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 10:00:06 -0000 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: <12940094.2759008.1473471687266@mail.yahoo.com> References: <040001d20ae4$a0892750$e19b75f0$@ntlworld.com> <12940094.2759008.1473471687266@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <019901d29b17$6d034690$4709d3b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William > Maddox > Sent: 10 September 2016 02:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; > rob at jarratt.me.uk > Subject: Re: Logic Analyser Advice > > On the 1630 series, the active logic is all in the pods. The connectors on the > flywires are proprietary HP parts with a mechanical latch to lock them into the > pods. but I've seen multiple mentions in discussion groups of folks using stock > Molex connectors to connect to the pods. > --Bill > Some time ago I asked about connectors for the pods on a HP 1630G Logic Analyzer. The reply above mentioned molex connectors as an alternative. I have been having a bit of a look around but I don't seem to be able to find anything suitable. Does anyone know what might be suitable? Regards Rob From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Mar 12 06:10:19 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 12:10:19 +0100 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <201703110217.VAA27275@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> <377cb432-1749-94e3-3e11-714e9d8e923a@dunnington.plus.com> <201703110217.VAA27275@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20170312111019.GA62773@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse via cctalk wrote: [..] > law). I simply consider it antisocial and uncivilized, and am not > interested in accepting mail from any domain within its bailiwick. ...what you call social and civilized it seems... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Mar 12 10:26:15 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 11:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aquired PDP 11/23 Message-ID: <20170312152615.DD98B18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Devin Davison > This past week I managed to pick up a pdp 11/23. Nice system; the CPU has the MMU and FPP, you've got what's probably a 256KB memory card (an NS23M - documentation is available - depending on the chips, it can be 64KB or 256KB - if the former, let me know, I'll swap you a 256KB one), and I think the pair of quad cards are probably an RLV11. Not sure what that off-brand dual card is - maybe a ROM of some sort? I wonder what the card on top in the chassis is? It looks like it has way too many chips on it to be just a power supply board - but I can't figure out what it could be. Anyone know? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Mar 12 12:24:47 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 13:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aquired PDP 11/23 Message-ID: <20170312172447.6665E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Devin Davison > This past week I managed to pick up a pdp 11/23. Nice system; the CPU has the MMU and FPP, you've got what's probably a 256KB memory card (an NS23M - documentation is available - depending on the chips, it can be 64KB or 256KB - if the former, let me know, I'll swap you a 256KB one), and I think the pair of quad cards are probably an RLV11. Not sure what that off-brand dual card is - maybe a ROM of some sort? I wonder what the card on top in the chassis is? It looks like it has way too many chips on it to be just a power supply board - but I can't figure out what it could be. Anyone know? Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 12 11:14:20 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:14:20 -0700 Subject: Did anyone on the list get these Displaywriter boards? Message-ID: forgot to set a snipe on them http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-Vintage-Circuit-Boards-1970s-INTEL-/142304100248 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-VINTAGE-Computer-Circuit-Boards-IBM-/142304122673 there were several boards in there I had never seen before From dave at 661.org Sun Mar 12 13:15:44 2017 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 11:15:44 -0700 Subject: New HP42s clone almost available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On March 10, 2017 8:59:15 AM PST, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: >That looks quite nice. I wonder what the buttons actually feel like; >that >seems to be one thing that HP has been generally unable to recreate >since >the 42s and 48GX. > >Despite keeping my 49g+ in its leather case, one of the buttons managed >to >break from carrying it in my backpack years ago. I've never had that >problem with my 32SII or 48G. > >Kyle I got a 15c clone from him when all he made were the credit card sized calcs. It works perfectly, but doesn't feel particularly nice in hand. I'm very glad that he has full-sized ones now. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Mar 12 15:00:30 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:00:30 -0400 Subject: Aquired PDP 11/23 In-Reply-To: <20170312152615.DD98B18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170312152615.DD98B18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: The thing on the top has to do with the tape drives, i think it is the controller. the drives plug into it, and from there it wires into a serial port, at least as far as i can tell. Much appriciated on the offer to trade for the memory board. It has been slow going with my 11/34, if i can get this machine going first, i would like to image my rl01/02 disks and see if there is anything interesting on them. Are dectape II tapes expensive? can you just format a more common higher capacity tape down to the dectape II format? i have a bunch of the newer cartriges, they do fit. --Devin On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Devin Davison > > > This past week I managed to pick up a pdp 11/23. > > Nice system; the CPU has the MMU and FPP, you've got what's probably a > 256KB > memory card (an NS23M - documentation is available - depending on the > chips, > it can be 64KB or 256KB - if the former, let me know, I'll swap you a 256KB > one), and I think the pair of quad cards are probably an RLV11. Not sure > what > that off-brand dual card is - maybe a ROM of some sort? > > I wonder what the card on top in the chassis is? It looks like it has way > too > many chips on it to be just a power supply board - but I can't figure out > what > it could be. Anyone know? > > Noel > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Mar 12 15:02:11 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:02:11 +0000 Subject: server up In-Reply-To: <001401d29aff$c7cdd8a0$576989e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 12/03/2017 07:10, "Jay West via cctalk" wrote: > The server seems to be alive at the new IP, mail flowing, websites up.. > > > > Still checking a few things, but appears complete. Nice one Jay! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Mar 12 15:31:22 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:31:22 +0000 Subject: Aquired PDP 11/23 In-Reply-To: <20170312172447.6665E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170312172447.6665E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7920be31-8ac3-a57c-aad0-b706a36dc79c@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/03/2017 17:24, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Devin Davison > > > This past week I managed to pick up a pdp 11/23. > > Nice system; the CPU has the MMU and FPP And it's a Rev.D (you can tell from the jumper layout), so full 22-bit. > you've got what's probably a 256KB > memory card (an NS23M - documentation is available - depending on the chips, > it can be 64KB or 256KB - if the former, let me know, I'll swap you a 256KB > one) It has 4 x 9 x 4164s, so it's 256KB with parity. > and I think the pair of quad cards are probably an RLV11. Yes, they're an RLV11. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Mar 12 15:56:53 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:56:53 -0400 Subject: Aquired PDP 11/23 In-Reply-To: References: <20170312152615.DD98B18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170312165653.eb68a91c1cd4d4e06f403dc3@gmail.com> > Are dectape II tapes expensive? TU58? They're hard to come by, but the good news is you can *emulate* them with a PC and a serial port (or USB adapter). That's how I run XXDP on most of my systems, and pretty much all of the systems I check out for people. You've got a DLV11-J in there so you've already got SLU0 in place (or can strap it up for it). AK6DN has a bunch of useful TU58 images premade, with listings of what XXDP utilities are on them. It's also possible to boot other OSes on TU58, like RT-11. There's even a patched RT-11 driver to fudge the capacity on TU58s so you can use the emulator(s) to store a much larger volume of data. Helps to set SLU0 for a higher speed than 9600 if you plan on doing that :) Thanks, Jonathan From starbase89 at gmail.com Sun Mar 12 15:57:54 2017 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:57:54 -0400 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The bootstrapping option is grayed out in ADT so I can't do that. I don't have access to my usual tools for the next few days, so I can't loop the pins On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 5:28 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > On 12/03/2017 01:52, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" > wrote: > >> Not great news :( >> The computer recognized the serial port on COM5 and ADTPro says that >> it is connected. I am using the null modem cable from RetroFloppy for >> the //c and the Radioshack cable with the Prolific chipset (I switched >> over to this one because I thought this problem was caused by the >> other cable.) I set the working directory in ADT where the DSK files >> are and set the baud rate in Windows, ADT on the PC and ADT on the //c >> all to 19200. When I boot up the //c, I select (R)ecieve, punch in the >> filename, hit enter and...Host Timeout. >> Any idea what might not be working now? >> >> I really appreciate everyone's help >> > > You can check if the PC is talking to the //c by doing a bare metal > speediboot - this will check the comms are working: > > http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/bootstrap.html > > Can you do a lookback test on the USB adapter by looping pins 2&3 then using > PuTTY to talk to itself? > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > From tpisek at pobox.com Sun Mar 12 13:01:06 2017 From: tpisek at pobox.com (Todd Pisek) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 13:01:06 -0500 Subject: Old Honeywell uPAC parts looking for a new home Message-ID: <17677594-6A16-4C60-8E0B-6266A0DC57BB@pobox.com> Greetings, While downsizing, I found some Honeywell uPAC cards. There? about 2 dozen of them. They consist of the following: od335 cc901 cc606 cc607 sr335 fa320 dj335 dk320 Physically they are in excellent shape; electrically is anybody?s guess. I?m willing to ship them to whomever wants them. Regards, Todd Pisek Saint Paul, MN From tpisek at pobox.com Sun Mar 12 13:07:13 2017 From: tpisek at pobox.com (Todd Pisek) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 13:07:13 -0500 Subject: HP 21MX (2105) needs good home Message-ID: I am downsizing and have an HP 2105 available. It?s been stored well, but I cannot vouch as to its operability. I do not know off hand how much memory it has. It is located in Saint Paul, MN. Regards, Todd Pisek From sales at elecplus.com Sun Mar 12 17:15:09 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 17:15:09 -0500 Subject: AIX documentation Message-ID: <025701d29b7e$1d195630$574c0290$@com> I have a number of binders that have pretty thorough AIX documentation, but the trouble is, there are from security classes that were taught by private companies. Am I legally allowed to resell these? Cindy Croxton From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Mar 12 17:55:11 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 15:55:11 -0700 Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: <025701d29b7e$1d195630$574c0290$@com> References: <025701d29b7e$1d195630$574c0290$@com> Message-ID: <2e0a42b9-4b34-0668-7615-48032f773a98@jwsss.com> i wouldn't see why not. You aren't NDA'd on anything, and if they are not government issue you own them. IANAL of course. On 3/12/2017 3:15 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > I have a number of binders that have pretty thorough AIX documentation, but > the trouble is, there are from security classes that were taught by private > companies. Am I legally allowed to resell these? > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 12 18:40:00 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: <2e0a42b9-4b34-0668-7615-48032f773a98@jwsss.com> References: <025701d29b7e$1d195630$574c0290$@com> <2e0a42b9-4b34-0668-7615-48032f773a98@jwsss.com> Message-ID: >> I have a number of binders that have pretty thorough AIX documentation, but >> the trouble is, there are from security classes that were taught by private >> companies. Am I legally allowed to resell these? On Sun, 12 Mar 2017, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > i wouldn't see why not. You aren't NDA'd on anything, and if they are not > government issue > you own them. > IANAL of course. While not a COPYRIGHT issue, it is possible, and not unlikely, that they were considered to be part of the course work, and that those taking the course may have agreed, explicitly or implicitly, not to pass them on. If there is not a statement about license on them, then it is a reasonably safe risk. The person who took the course, and agreed to any such license could be liable. If they want to take action, then they would have a weak case based on not having made the license terms known and included in the work. (mens rea, etc.) Similarly, although post Berne convention upholds copyright on works without a copyright notice, failing to have a copyright notice is a really BAD idea. That doesn't mean that a litigious pubisher won't be a nuisance. If it is a significant amount (many copies, high price each, etc.) then make a good faith effort to contact the originator of the materials, and consult a real IP lawyer. Also, be aware that legal advice here is often tainted by our own interests, hence the fiction of "abandonware". IANAL, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Mar 12 20:03:38 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:03:38 -0600 Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: References: <025701d29b7e$1d195630$574c0290$@com> <2e0a42b9-4b34-0668-7615-48032f773a98@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 5:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> I have a number of binders that have pretty thorough AIX documentation, >>> but >>> the trouble is, there are from security classes that were taught by >>> private >>> companies. Am I legally allowed to resell these? > > > On Sun, 12 Mar 2017, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> i wouldn't see why not. You aren't NDA'd on anything, and if they are not >> government issue >> you own them. >> IANAL of course. > > > While not a COPYRIGHT issue, it is possible, and not unlikely, that they > were considered to be part of the course work, and that those taking the > course may have agreed, explicitly or implicitly, not to pass them on. Such an agreement would need to be in writing and explicit. Otherwise it's just like a text book which you bought for the class. See below for what you can do. > If there is not a statement about license on them, then it is a reasonably > safe risk. The person who took the course, and agreed to any such license > could be liable. If they want to take action, then they would have a weak > case based on not having made the license terms known and included in the > work. (mens rea, etc.) > > Similarly, although post Berne convention upholds copyright on works without > a copyright notice, failing to have a copyright notice is a really BAD idea. > > That doesn't mean that a litigious pubisher won't be a nuisance. > > > If it is a significant amount (many copies, high price each, etc.) then make > a good faith effort to contact the originator of the materials, and consult > a real IP lawyer. > > Also, be aware that legal advice here is often tainted by our own interests, > hence the fiction of "abandonware". Resell: sure. The copyright interest of the seller is extinguished when you purchase them by whatever means absent an explicit agreement to the contrary. Copy and upload the copy: No. Copyright Law would preclude that absent permission from the current owner of the copyright. Copy for yourself and then sell: Legal grey area, most likely not legal, but kinda depends on your local jurisdiction. Copy and upload to bitkeepers: Possibly the most beneficial thing you could do. Likely not a lawful copy, thought (see above). Warner From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 12 21:07:42 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: References: <025701d29b7e$1d195630$574c0290$@com> <2e0a42b9-4b34-0668-7615-48032f773a98@jwsss.com> Message-ID: >>>> AIX documentation, but the trouble is, there are from security >>>> classes that were taught by private companies. Am I legally allowed >>>> to resell these? >> While not a COPYRIGHT issue, it is possible, and not unlikely, that they >> were considered to be part of the course work, and that those taking the >> course may have agreed, explicitly or implicitly, not to pass them on. On Sun, 12 Mar 2017, Warner Losh wrote: > Such an agreement would need to be in writing and explicit. Otherwise > it's just like a text book which you bought for the class. See below > for what you can do. Materials supplied as part of a course, are NOT just like a text book, which is commercially available separately. These materials were apparently never available except by enrolling in the course. Sure, such an agreement would have to exit, but not necessarily attached to the course workbook. It could exist as part of the documents that the participant signed to REGISTER for the course. And, as the appellate court ruled in ProCD V Zeidenberg, it does not have to be in writing, nor signed, so long as it is known AT THE TIME that the agreement was reached. (not necessarily NOW!) There is no problem with selling the sole copy in terms of COPYRIGHT law. Your comments are entirely about the copyright law. Which is not the issue to be concerned about in this case. The worse problem here is whether the previous owner entered into a licence agreement as part of registering for the course. I have run into such license agreements in registering for commercial courses. ("all materials used in the course . . . ") Not seeing a license agreement attached to the materials is sufficient to show that you had no willful intent to violate it, and that should be enough to sell them, in good faith. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. (Certainly having a work with the title/verso (copyright) page torn out is not the same as it never having had one, of course, but the license agreement need never have been physically attached) Remember that ProCD V Zeidenberg was about material that is presumably not even copyrightable! but the courts upheld a violation of license, on a shrink-wrap license! It was a LICENSE lawsuit, not a copyright one, although that was also alleged. http://www.freibrun.com/not-fast-appeals-court-reverses-upholds-shrink-wrap-agreement/ Zeidenberg bought a retail "single user" copy (not even the multi-user version) of a CD-ROM telephone directory. He then created a website selling access to the content from it. The appellate court explicitly ruled that ProCD did NOT have to print the license agreement on the outside of the box. The licensee does NOT need to sign! "A contract for sale of goods may be made in any manner sufficient to show agreement, including conduct by both parties which recognizes the existence of such a contract." (about EXACTLY that.) (such as the documents regietering for the course!) Zeidenberg DID click the "I accept" box. If there WAS a license agreement, then it was abject stupidity for the licensor of these materials not to embed that information on the item! Personally, I feel that the court gave far too much power to adhesion contracts! IANAL, "I Ain't No Asshole Lawyer" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sun Mar 12 21:12:06 2017 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:12:06 -0400 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: <142c247.1f8094c0.45f43a1e@aol.com> References: <142c247.1f8094c0.45f43a1e@aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks to Chris, I have given the equipment a new home. Pics have been taken of the two NeXT Cube boards in question and pics of the motherboard, for good measure. I've made a post on the NeXT computer forum here for those who may be interested: http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4027 Thanks, Santo On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > let me put my name back in the hat for the cube next computer... > all the other stuff we have looks ok but appears like our cube may > have met a baseball bat on part of it.... > > poor thing would not look good in a display. > Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC > > > In a message dated 3/10/2017 10:13:29 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > On 9 March 2017 at 01:21, Ian Finder via cctalk > wrote: > > Is someone testing a Markov chainer on the list? If so, you have some > more > > work to do... > > > It would explain the resolute & total failure of our efforts to > explain top-quoting to him. Er, to it. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Mar 12 21:13:33 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:13:33 -0400 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware Message-ID: ok can you spare the cube? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 3/12/2017 7:12:11 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Thanks to Chris, I have given the equipment a new home. Pics have been taken of the two NeXT Cube boards in question and pics of the motherboard, for good measure. I've made a post on the NeXT computer forum here for those who may be interested: http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4027 Thanks, Santo On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > let me put my name back in the hat for the cube next computer... > all the other stuff we have looks ok but appears like our cube may > have met a baseball bat on part of it.... > > poor thing would not look good in a display. > Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC > > > In a message dated 3/10/2017 10:13:29 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > On 9 March 2017 at 01:21, Ian Finder via cctalk > wrote: > > Is someone testing a Markov chainer on the list? If so, you have some > more > > work to do... > > > It would explain the resolute & total failure of our efforts to > explain top-quoting to him. Er, to it. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sun Mar 12 21:18:41 2017 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:18:41 -0400 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 10:13 PM, wrote: > ok can you spare the cube? > Ed# www.smecc.org > > No. As I noted, I haven't even booted it up yet to try it. I will be keeping that, one of the mono NeXTstations (the one for parts ) and passing on a NeXTstation to a fellow collector. I appreciate the interest but it hasn't even warmed up yet from the cold :) Santo From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Mar 12 21:26:11 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:26:11 -0400 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware Message-ID: OK anyone else have a cube out there that is cosmetically decent? does not need to be internally complete? Ours is a bit of a beater for the display thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for smecc In a message dated 3/12/2017 7:18:42 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, santo.nucifora at gmail.com writes: On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 10:13 PM, wrote: ok can you spare the cube? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) No. As I noted, I haven't even booted it up yet to try it. I will be keeping that, one of the mono NeXTstations (the one for parts ) and passing on a NeXTstation to a fellow collector. I appreciate the interest but it hasn't even warmed up yet from the cold :) Santo From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Mar 12 21:32:41 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:32:41 -0600 Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: References: <025701d29b7e$1d195630$574c0290$@com> <2e0a42b9-4b34-0668-7615-48032f773a98@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>> AIX documentation, but the trouble is, there are from security classes >>>>> that were taught by private companies. Am I legally allowed to resell these? >>> >>> While not a COPYRIGHT issue, it is possible, and not unlikely, that they >>> were considered to be part of the course work, and that those taking the >>> course may have agreed, explicitly or implicitly, not to pass them on. > > > On Sun, 12 Mar 2017, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> Such an agreement would need to be in writing and explicit. Otherwise >> it's just like a text book which you bought for the class. See below >> for what you can do. > > > Materials supplied as part of a course, are NOT just like a text book, which > is commercially available separately. These materials were apparently never > available except by enrolling in the course. Unless they are covered under a separate agreement that's explicit, Copyright Law applies. Being part of the course isn't magical. > Sure, such an agreement would have to exit, but not necessarily attached to > the course workbook. It could exist as part of the documents that the > participant signed to REGISTER for the course. > And, as the appellate court ruled in ProCD V Zeidenberg, it does not have to > be in writing, nor signed, so long as it is known AT THE TIME that the > agreement was reached. (not necessarily NOW!) That gets tricky to enforce. Absent a real, written agreement, the courts have nothing to enforce. ProCD v Zeidenberg seems to fly in the face of simple contract law. > There is no problem with selling the sole copy in terms of COPYRIGHT law. > Your comments are entirely about the copyright law. Which is not the issue > to be concerned about in this case. > > The worse problem here is whether the previous owner entered into a licence > agreement as part of registering for the course. Yes. That would be an explicit agreement. > I have run into such license agreements in registering for commercial > courses. ("all materials used in the course . . . ") > > Not seeing a license agreement attached to the materials is sufficient to > show that you had no willful intent to violate it, and that should be enough > to sell them, in good faith. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Which makes it hard to enforce in court, especially years after the fact. > (Certainly having a work with the title/verso (copyright) page torn out is > not the same as it never having had one, of course, but the license > agreement need never have been physically attached) > > > Remember that ProCD V Zeidenberg was about material that is presumably not > even copyrightable! but the courts upheld a violation of license, on a > shrink-wrap license! It was a LICENSE lawsuit, not a copyright one, > although that was also alleged. > > http://www.freibrun.com/not-fast-appeals-court-reverses-upholds-shrink-wrap-agreement/ > Zeidenberg bought a retail "single user" copy (not even the multi-user > version) of a CD-ROM telephone directory. He then created a website selling > access to the content from it. > > The appellate court explicitly ruled that ProCD did NOT have to print the > license agreement on the outside of the box. > > The licensee does NOT need to sign! > "A contract for sale of goods may be made in any manner sufficient to show > agreement, including conduct by both parties which recognizes the existence > of such a contract." (about EXACTLY that.) > (such as the documents regietering for the course!) > Zeidenberg DID click the "I accept" box. > If there WAS a license agreement, then it was abject stupidity for the > licensor of these materials not to embed that information on the item! Again, that's an explicit, in writing modification of the normal terms of copyright. Click through licensing has been, I must note, non uniformly enforced. > Personally, I feel that the court gave far too much power to adhesion > contracts! Yea. It certainly sounds like it, but I've not looked into the particulars of that case to know for sure. One of the tenants of the ProCD case is that the terms must be commercially reasonable and not otherwise unconscionable which gives a lot of wiggle room for a good lawyer. Absent seeing any agreement, it's hard to know what the terms are. And if a number of years have passed since the original material was distributed, it can be difficult to prove that the person making the sale has an obligation to follow the original license if it wasn't provided upon a sale contrary to the original license. It also depends where you are located (China doesn't enforce click through licenses, for example). So there's lots of "yea butt's" here and the specifics of the original company and License matter a lot. Absent those, it's quite difficult to know what applies here. Maybe there was a license. Maybe the licensor still cares. Maybe they can prove it in court. Maybe a simple sale would trigger a case. Maybe not. It's all about how much risk you are willing to assume in the absence of concrete, verifiable information as to whether you proceed with the sale.... Warner From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Mar 12 22:14:01 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:14:01 -0700 Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: <025701d29b7e$1d195630$574c0290$@com> References: <025701d29b7e$1d195630$574c0290$@com> Message-ID: On 3/12/2017 3:15 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > I have a number of binders that have pretty thorough AIX documentation, but > the trouble is, there are from security classes that were taught by private > companies. Am I legally allowed to resell these? > > > > Cindy Croxton The thread went into a lot of technicalities. however you mention this is for AIX. I am currently up on IBM and I'd find it odd if there were not clear notices in any class document with IBM copyrights, dates, etc. Also if the strings mentioned at length in the other answer thread exist, and IBM had anything to do with this (as in they own AIX), the owner of the course usually publishes such notices clearly as well. Not absolutely, but every document since IBM lost the copyrights on MVX and the like is pretty well done right by their legal department. Maybe some scans or snaps of the front part of the document of such notices we can help more if it isn't clear with what they put there. thanks jim From barythrin at gmail.com Sun Mar 12 23:53:53 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:53:53 -0500 Subject: AIX documentation Message-ID: <34i2481uc2v735drdbsbwfe3.1489380833181@email.android.com> As others said, we're not lawyers so ymmv but I would take it as the same as selling a used cd, dvd, software or books. The usual law is we can't copy it. So scanning it, if that company or company's intellectual property is still in existence they might care. But selling originals is usually ok unless specific wording against it, although that's also probably the original owner in contract not yourself.? Ironically I was *just* having a similar thought and self conversation with some training materials I just purchased from a used book store. All the best, - John -------- Original message --------From: Electronics Plus via cctalk Date: 3/12/17 5:15 PM (GMT-06:00) To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: AIX documentation I have a number of binders that have pretty thorough AIX documentation, but the trouble is, there are from security classes that were taught by private companies. Am I legally allowed to resell these? From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Mar 12 18:30:38 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:30:38 -0400 Subject: Aquired PDP 11/23 In-Reply-To: <20170312165653.eb68a91c1cd4d4e06f403dc3@gmail.com> References: <20170312152615.DD98B18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170312165653.eb68a91c1cd4d4e06f403dc3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <751a29e1-ae2a-8b54-fdf7-8dd68f17bb06@verizon.net> On 03/12/2017 04:56 PM, Systems Glitch via cctech wrote: >> Are dectape II tapes expensive? > TU58? They're hard to come by, but the good news is you can *emulate* them with a PC and a serial port (or USB adapter). That's how I run XXDP on most of my systems, and pretty much all of the systems I check out for people. You've got a DLV11-J in there so you've already got SLU0 in place (or can strap it up for it). AK6DN has a bunch of useful TU58 images premade, with listings of what XXDP utilities are on them. What makes them hard to come by is that they must be preformatted for the TU58, as far as I know only DEC had hardware to do that. The Drive as it stands cannot do that, It is not capable of higher storage capacity as a result (hardware limit, programming and no formatting). > It's also possible to boot other OSes on TU58, like RT-11. There's even a patched RT-11 driver to fudge the capacity on TU58s so you can use the emulator(s) to store a much larger volume of data. Helps to set SLU0 for a higher speed than 9600 if you plan on doing that :) I run RT-11XM using TU58 a real one. Boot times to load the RT-11XM: driver and copy the tape and boot to XM: virtual disk that takes about 5 minutes. That's with the files optimally placed on the tape (in order of need) to limit the number of rewinds. The VAX750 used TU58 to load microcode and diagnostics. Any os that can fit on the 256K per tape times two tapes would likely be bootable if it can do the serial protocal used for the booter and the OS. A PC emulation (or Rpi) can do this a bit faster (just over a minute for a boot can copy to VM:) but you are limited to the max baud rate (38K) of the serial port use by the DD driver. There was at least one company that used a floppy drive (360K 5.25 or 720K for two sided) with a TU58 emulation that was somewhat faster than tape due to faster seeks to a block. Allison > Thanks, > Jonathan > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Mar 12 18:40:46 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:40:46 -0400 Subject: Old Honeywell uPAC parts looking for a new home In-Reply-To: <17677594-6A16-4C60-8E0B-6266A0DC57BB@pobox.com> References: <17677594-6A16-4C60-8E0B-6266A0DC57BB@pobox.com> Message-ID: Todd, I am piecing together a DDP-516, I believe that some of these *may* apply, but more likely they'd go with newer system, Are there any silk screened date codes? I'd have to look the parts up, see if I have the docs on hand. Please advise if they're still available. On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Todd Pisek via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Greetings, > > While downsizing, I found some Honeywell uPAC cards. There? about 2 dozen > of them. They consist of the following: > > od335 > cc901 > cc606 > cc607 > sr335 > fa320 > dj335 > dk320 > > Physically they are in excellent shape; electrically is anybody?s guess. > > I?m willing to ship them to whomever wants them. > > Regards, > > Todd Pisek > Saint Paul, MN > > > > From tpisek at pobox.com Sun Mar 12 22:39:37 2017 From: tpisek at pobox.com (Todd Pisek) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 22:39:37 -0500 Subject: Old Honeywell uPAC parts looking for a new home Message-ID: The uPAC modules have been claimed. From dave at 661.org Mon Mar 13 02:23:49 2017 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:23:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: sourcing Atmel 29Cxxx series flash roms Message-ID: I'm almost out of Atmel 29C256 flash roms. I use these primarily for P112 boot roms. I'd like some more because I still have P112 boards to sell... and I want them for other projects. Mouser, Digikey, and Jameco don't have it anymore. What are you guys doing to get these and equivalent chips? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 13 02:44:44 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:44:44 +0000 Subject: MOVIE.BYU - progress Message-ID: Thanks group for the links to the source. These have passed thru many copies, and somehow have embedded control characters and such, but I am successful so far at the cleanup: I pull the source into a fortran knowledgeable editor, I am using "blocks" When the editor stops in the file, I drop into jedit, delete whatever is there, the invisible text and save; restart "blocks" and it parses further I should have this to compile in a few days. It outputs to the Tek terminal, for those guys working on that. Randy From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 03:30:37 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:30:37 +0100 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 9 March 2017 at 10:50, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 9 Mar 2017, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> >> I did an strace and I can confirm that the Linux 'whois' client that I >> used from those various sites sends '-T dn' (or actually -T dn,ace) >> >> write(3, "-T dn,ace uni-stuttgart.de\r\n", 28) = 28 [..] > I did a little research on that: > The '-T' option is passed to the whois server, it's not a client option. [..] I didn't say it was - the above output is the *strace* output (I could as well have used tcpdump I suppose) to see what was passed to the whois server, from the whois client, when used with those options shown before (-h domain) From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Mar 13 04:01:27 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 04:01:27 -0500 Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: References: <025701d29b7e$1d195630$574c0290$@com> <2e0a42b9-4b34-0668-7615-48032f773a98@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20170313090127.GA11512@lonesome.com> On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 08:32:41PM -0600, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > One of the tenants of the ProCD case tenets? You must have renters on your mind again. That NM place maybe? mcl From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 05:48:11 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 10:48:11 -0000 Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: <34i2481uc2v735drdbsbwfe3.1489380833181@email.android.com> References: <34i2481uc2v735drdbsbwfe3.1489380833181@email.android.com> Message-ID: <00a701d29be7$50a00260$f1e00720$@outlook.com> Folks, Well I recently retired and was asked to return all training materials to my employer. I refused as the contracts included in the front of the books clearly stated that these were licenced to me personally not to whoever paid for the course, and were not to be passed to any one else, including my employer. I wonder if they would have sent me if they known? If the materials are meant to be so licenced I would expect them to include a specific reference to the licence some where at the front. In the case of AIX as folks are still running AIX courses I suspect that releasing them to the public may not be legal... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sam > O'nella via cctalk > Sent: 13 March 2017 04:54 > To: Electronics Plus ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: AIX documentation > > As others said, we're not lawyers so ymmv but I would take it as the same as > selling a used cd, dvd, software or books. The usual law is we can't copy it. So > scanning it, if that company or company's intellectual property is still in > existence they might care. But selling originals is usually ok unless specific > wording against it, although that's also probably the original owner in contract > not yourself. Ironically I was *just* having a similar thought and self > conversation with some training materials I just purchased from a used book > store. > All the best, > - John > -------- Original message --------From: Electronics Plus via cctalk > Date: 3/12/17 5:15 PM (GMT-06:00) To: "'General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: > AIX documentation I have a number of binders that have pretty thorough > AIX documentation, but the trouble is, there are from security classes that > were taught by private companies. Am I legally allowed to resell these? > From sales at elecplus.com Mon Mar 13 06:15:30 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 06:15:30 -0500 Subject: AIX documentation Message-ID: <002601d29beb$204442d0$60ccc870$@com> Copyright 1991 IBM. All rights reserved. AIX X-Windows 3270 Emulator User's Guide Note to US Government Users - Documentation related to Restricted Rights - Use, duplication, or disclosure is subject to restrictions set forth in GSA ADP Schedule Contract with IBM Corp. This book describes how to use the AIX X-Windows3270 Emulator, X3270. All that being said, the entire contents of the binder is obviously a photocopy! Sellable or not? Of interest or not? Cindy Croxton From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 13 06:58:30 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:58:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AIX documentation Message-ID: <20170313115830.B8F3218C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fred Cisin > be aware that legal advice here is often tainted by our own interests, > hence the fiction of "abandonware". Speak for yourself; my comments below are the legal position as best I know it, and not influenced in any direction. Of course, as are most people here, I am not a lawyer (although I've spent enough money on Intellectual Property lawyers over the years to send myself to law school, had I had the time, so I now know a little bit about the subject :-), and my perception is that the lack of knowledge on all our parts implicit in that is a far larger risk than any bias. > From: Warner Losh > Resell: sure. The copyright interest of the seller is extinguished when > you purchase them I don't think that's correct: any copyright rights held by any party are generally not, AFAIK, modified by sale of the material from a second party (i.e. not a rights holder), to a third (you). But that's immaterial, as long as one is only selling a copy which one purchased. As long as that copy was itself not produced in violation of a copyright, transfer to a fourth party (whoever you sell it to) is entirely legal. (Just like selling used books - which generally are in copyright - is legal.) You are (I'm pretty certain) not in any danger on copyright grounds, as long as you don't make any copies yourself. (What the situation is, if that copy _was_ produced in violation of a copyright, I am not sure of.) Restricted rights (such as a duty not to pass the material along) are probably not an issue, as that is entirely a civil contract between the issuer and the second party (above) who purchased them. If that party elects to sell the items _without_ making a second civil contract with the third party (you), those restrictions would not apply. For the second party's violation, the only recourse of the first party would be to sue the second party. Since the third party doesn't have a contract with anyone, there are no grounds for any claim against them. If there are trade secrets involved, I'm not 100% sure of the situation, since there are some protections for trade secrets in the law; but those mostly apply to deliberate theft or espionage. My suspicion is that if a third party gains access to trade secrets through negligence on the part of the second party - i.e. the second party giving/selling material containing trade secrets to a third party - the third party is clear to do what they want with the information. But maybe not, I just don't know enough about protection of trade secrets. The final area to be considered is theft. If the party from whom the documents were obtained did not rightfully own them (e.g. if they technically still belong to the first party, and they were merely on loan to the second party), then the third party (you) can't own them either, and so you (legally) can't sell them. Having said all that, it would probably cost more to ascertain their exact status (were they sold or loaned, etc) than they are worth (unless they are worth a goodly amount). But I also suspect that the rights holder(s) probably no longer care - but that's just a guess. Noel From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 08:57:51 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:57:51 +0100 Subject: Fwd: [rescue] Major Clearout (UK LN11) - REDUX In-Reply-To: <8a812ac9-4a28-3598-cf31-ada3b0112278@gmail.com> References: <8a812ac9-4a28-3598-cf31-ada3b0112278@gmail.com> Message-ID: Forwarding a message that might be of interest to list members... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mark Benson Date: 13 March 2017 at 13:41 Subject: [rescue] Major Clearout (UK LN11) - REDUX To: Rescue List Hi, Filtering through this list to remove what's gone and revise the items as required. This is the LAST CALL for these. They'll be going to recycling if no-one claims them (aside from the Newer Computers) All stuff is in UK LN11 Postcode area. Prefer collection, but will ship small stuff at your *own risk and cost*. I will ship small items outside Europe but the large stuff is UK/EU only due to likely power supply restrictions and excess shipping costs. Unless otherwise explicitly stated, all items are **untested**. I will test computers on demand if needed. Cards and CPUs I can't really be bothered to. No returns, folks, ya gets what ya gets. There's a stack of pictures here: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/nt94k1zf0tn49wt/AACpoHnTm75yDhlFHQ6wd5WBa Identification of stuff is left to the reader. If you have any questions just drop me a line. Here goes: ALL FREE TO A GOOD HOME (shipping extra): =iMac G4 800 -15-inch - NOW FREE= TESTED working okay (booted into OS X 10.4.11 and ran a few apps) G4 800MHz CPU 15b LCD Panel 768MB RAM (256MB Internal, 512MB in upgrade slot) Airport (doesnb t support WPA encrypted WiFi) Cosmetically needs a clean and dedust, has a few scuffs on the outer case plastics, otherwise in good condition. Flat Panel LCD sadly has several bugs stuck between the LCD and the backlight resulting in small black spots that look like 2-3 dead pixels Has original, working external speakers (have special powered plug!) - in similar need of light TLC *In Original box* (because frankly it was the only way to store it safely!) Probably have a matching White Keyboard and Mouse somewhere. Happy to ship to UK Buyer as itb s easy enough in the box =PowerMac G3/400 upgraded to G4/500/1M)= NOW FREE but will cost extra for shipping TESTED WORKING booted into Mac OS X 10.4.11 and tooled about. Soak tested for 4 hours. REVISION B UNIT - DOES NOT HAVE THE IDE CONTROLLER BUG == NO VIDEO CARD == 512MB RAM (tested working in the machine) 40GB Hard drive (?) Case is in decent condition aside from an odd scuff, front lower handle has a chunk missing out of it (happened some time ago and never got replaced) =PowerMac 9600= UNTESTED but was working a year ago when I replaced a faulty logic board and booted it into Mac OS 9.1 ZIF Socket CPU card with a G3/500/1M upgrade CPU installed I think about 384MB of RAM ATi Rage 128GL video card Apple 10/100 Ethernet card Case is a bit dirty and has a few scuffs but is in good general condition. The side panel fan has slightly botched (but working) contacts on it. Inside is clean and in good condition. =Intel ISP1100 Rackmount 1U Server= UNTESTED Not been run up in years was stored as working Pentium III 800MHz (Coppermine) No RAM but have some PC100 and PC133 EEC that works in it 1.44MB Floppy and facility to install 2 hard drives (IDE) Includes some crazy-ass Broadcom PCI Crypto-Accelerator card thatb s probably obsolete. The shown hard drive is not included (itb s SATA, anyway) Was bought as new in the box so has not seen a server room in itb s life, I havenb t run it for any significant time. Chassis is clean aside from a bit of dust, the front panel cover likes to fall off because the rack ears got dingged. Comes with a full set of rack rails (never opened) if I can find them =Macintosh Performa 475= UNTESTED worked last time I turned it on and they are pretty hard to kill :) Probably has no RAM or VRAM (aside from soldered in stuff) Genuine XC68040RC25M CPU (not original, has FPU) No Hard Drive (tray and screws are in it I think) Has LC PDS Ethernet card, I think Clean condition, case is largely unscathed, only light yellowing. Has an AppleCentre Norwich dealer label on the front =Macintosh LC= UNTESTED Itb s complete and pretty original, including hard drive, RAM etc. Has some kind of LC PDS card in that I canb t identify (itb s no LAN), but I couldnb t be fashed to take the lid off as I didnb t have a screwdriver handy. I donb t remember having anything too exciting for LC PDS Case is okay apart from some sticker-guff and dirt. Even has original retaining screw! =Apple SCSI CD-ROM= UNTESTED External 50-pin SCSI Apple CD-ROM I think it has a Genuine Apple CD300 (Matshita 4x) drive in it which means itb ll work with System 7.5 up with no silly drivers IIRC 50-pin Centronics with Passthrough =Compaq 8-port PS/2 VGA KVM= UNTESTED The b less compatibleb black port version No cables, sorry, but they use standard VGA/PS2 ports CARDS =NuBus Cards= SuperMac DigitalFilm VidCap system - Includes cable and breakout box 2x of Asante Ethernet Card - RJ-45 and Thicknet ports =PCI/AGP Cards= 8MB Video Board from PowerMac 9600 (I forget the model) Apple Fast Ethernet 10/100 card - RJ-45 =CPUs & CPU Cards= ZIF Module PowerPC G3/266 - originally from Beige PowerMac G3 ZIF Module PowerPC G4/400 - unknown but likely from Yikes! G4 ZIF Module PowerPC G4/500 - SonnetTech G4/500/1M upgrade NewerTech MAXpower PowerPC G3 (233?) Slot Card (for pre-G3 PCI PowerMac) SonnetTech PowerPC G3 300/512 Upgrade Slot Card (for pre-G3 PCI PowerMac) PowerPC 604/166MHz - Pulled from a Power Computing PowerTower (Mac Clone) Unknown PowerPC G3/250 Upgrade Card - has rotary switch clock settings on it =MISC STUFF= AV b Wingsb Personality card (video in/out, RCA Audio in/out) - think these are for the Beige PowerMac G3? 2x of LC PDS Ethernet Card PowerMac 8100/7100/6100 Accelerated Video card for PDS Slot - includes 6100 bracket Apple Performa PDS Ethernet Card 3x of 3rd Party Apple-AUI (mini Apple port NOT DB-15) to RJ-45 transceivers Genuine Apple-AUI (mini Apple port NOT DB-15) to RJ-45 transceiver Quantum GoDrive 2.5b SCSI Hard drive - 40MB - Powerbook - 1992 Quantum GoDrive 2.5b SCSI Hard drive - 160MB - Powerbook - 1992 Various Drive Trays -PowerMac 8600/9600/G3 Beige Tower -Quadra 8xx/PowerMac 8xxx (pre-8600) -Mac LC Floppy Drives - Manual and Auto-inject types Mac SE & SE/30 Rear Expansion port bracket 2x of Mac Keyboard Cable (curly grey ones) Bundle of PhoneNet cables PowerMac 6100/7100 Video to 15-pin Monitor adapter (These still aren't photo'd but will take pics if interested) -- Mark Benson _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 13 09:02:35 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: References: <025701d29b7e$1d195630$574c0290$@com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Mar 2017, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/12/2017 3:15 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: >> I have a number of binders that have pretty thorough AIX documentation, but >> the trouble is, there are from security classes that were taught by private >> companies. Am I legally allowed to resell these? >> I would expect they could be sold just like any other book. >> >> Cindy Croxton > The thread went into a lot of technicalities. however you mention this is A lot of /completely irrelevant/ technicalities, especially considering the material in question is a physical object, not software. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 13 09:06:17 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sourcing Atmel 29Cxxx series flash roms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Mar 2017, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > I'm almost out of Atmel 29C256 flash roms. I use these primarily for P112 > boot roms. I'd like some more because I still have P112 boards to sell... > and I want them for other projects. Mouser, Digikey, and Jameco don't have > it anymore. What are you guys doing to get these and equivalent chips? These are 28C256, but may work? http://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/FLASH.html g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 13 09:10:44 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: <00a701d29be7$50a00260$f1e00720$@outlook.com> References: <34i2481uc2v735drdbsbwfe3.1489380833181@email.android.com> <00a701d29be7$50a00260$f1e00720$@outlook.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Mar 2017, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > Folks, > > Well I recently retired and was asked to return all training materials > to my employer. I refused as the contracts included in the front of the > books clearly stated that these were licenced to me personally not to > whoever paid for the course, and were not to be passed to any one else, > including my employer. I wonder if they would have sent me if they > known? If the materials are meant to be so licenced I would expect them > to include a specific reference to the licence some where at the front. > In the case of AIX as folks are still running AIX courses I suspect that > releasing them to the public may not be legal... Unless Cindy was the original purchaser of the material, she can do basically anything she likes with the material short of violating the copyright. Selling them or giving them away doesn't do that. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 13 09:11:30 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: <002601d29beb$204442d0$60ccc870$@com> References: <002601d29beb$204442d0$60ccc870$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Mar 2017, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > All that being said, the entire contents of the binder is obviously a > photocopy! Sellable or not? Of interest or not? > Sellable. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 06:50:55 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:50:55 -0400 Subject: Old Honeywell uPAC parts looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thanks. I have the DDP-516, which I think is older than what became the H316. It's fuzzy as to which modules worked with the variants of the DDP-516 vs. H316. Bill On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 11:39 PM, Todd Pisek via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The uPAC modules have been claimed. > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 13 09:37:03 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 10:37:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AIX documentation Message-ID: <20170313143703.2E48C18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: geneb > A lot of /completely irrelevant/ technicalities, especially considering > the material in question is a physical object, not software. Doesn't matter. The various matters I raised (copyright, restricted rights, trade secret, and ownership) apply to printed documentation as well as software. > See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine That only applies if the item is i) not a copyright violation (i.e. it's an authorized copy), ii) legally the property of the entity selling it, etc. On the first, I have the impression (although I can't find, after some searching, a formal citation) that it is not legal to sell an un-authorized copy, even if the seller is not the entity which did the un-authorized copying. (I.e. if person B makes an un-authorized copy of person A's copyrighted content - an act which is definitely not legal - and sells said copy to person C, I don't believe that person C has the right to sell that un-authorized copy to person D.) Noel From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 13 10:14:55 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 08:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: <20170313143703.2E48C18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170313143703.2E48C18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: geneb > > > A lot of /completely irrelevant/ technicalities, especially considering > > the material in question is a physical object, not software. > > Doesn't matter. The various matters I raised (copyright, restricted rights, > trade secret, and ownership) apply to printed documentation as well as > software. > You're right, it doesn't matter. Maybe next time, items will be sold without stirring up the Corner Case Cabal. This entire conversation is completely absurd. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 13 10:44:43 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AIX documentation Message-ID: <20170313154443.C3A7918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: geneb > This entire conversation is completely absurd. Perhaps. But she did ask "Am I legally allowed to resell these?" - which is rather a different question from 'If you were me, would you just go ahead and sell these?' (My answer to the latter question, BTW, is 'Yes.') Yes, I know that in so carefully parsing her statement, I'm acting like a lawyer. So sue me! ;-) Noel From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Mon Mar 13 10:24:31 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:24:31 +0100 Subject: Ardent Titan Message-ID: Last Friday, I finally received a shipment of 1980's minisupercomputers from the US that I've been working on since September. One of the systems is an Ardent Titan, which to my knowledge was the first (mini-) supercomputer to come with an integrated high-end graphics subsystem (1280x1024 at 60Hz, hardware spheres, antialiasing, and cast shadows). After careful checking, I powered it on yesterday, and got as far as trying to boot it; unfortunately, the harddisk does not contain the OS, but I'm trying to get access to an installation tape. There's a full writeup about my efforts this weekend on my website: http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/42-repair/576-ardent-titan-power-on A description with some pictures of the Ardent can be found here: http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/other-bits/565-ardent-titan Uncrating pictures are here: http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/41-acquisitions/575-supercomputers-have-ar rived Anyone who knows anything about these machines, please contact me! Also, if you have access to installation tapes, manuals, brochures, anything related to these systems, please let me know. Kind regards, Camiel Vanderhoeven From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Mar 13 10:54:03 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:54:03 +0000 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: References: <142c247.1f8094c0.45f43a1e@aol.com> Message-ID: <72B76362-1263-4F8F-A204-0C3097609614@swri.edu> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:12 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > Thanks to Chris, I have given the equipment a new home. Pics have been > taken of the two NeXT Cube boards in question and pics of the motherboard, > for good measure. I've made a post on the NeXT computer forum here for > those who may be interested: > http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4027 > > Thanks, > Santo Good photos, thank you for posting! Looks like this cube had a pretty interesting life so far! It might well be you find some interesting drivers or other software on the hard drive. - Mark From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Mar 13 11:39:54 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:39:54 -0500 Subject: sourcing Atmel 29Cxxx series flash roms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58C6CB5A.5020303@pico-systems.com> On 03/13/2017 02:23 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > I'm almost out of Atmel 29C256 flash roms. I use these > primarily for P112 boot roms. I'd like some more because > I still have P112 boards to sell... and I want them for > other projects. Mouser, Digikey, and Jameco don't have it > anymore. What are you guys doing to get these and > equivalent chips? > > I have some 27C256, don't know if those are compatible. Alltronics in San Jose (or thereabouts) used to have a massive stock of older chips. Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 13 11:55:39 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:55:39 +0000 Subject: sourcing Atmel 29Cxxx series flash roms In-Reply-To: <58C6CB5A.5020303@pico-systems.com> References: , <58C6CB5A.5020303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Didn't mention what package? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 9:39:54 AM To: David Griffith; General at classiccmp.org; Discussion@ Subject: Re: sourcing Atmel 29Cxxx series flash roms On 03/13/2017 02:23 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > I'm almost out of Atmel 29C256 flash roms. I use these > primarily for P112 boot roms. I'd like some more because > I still have P112 boards to sell... and I want them for > other projects. Mouser, Digikey, and Jameco don't have it > anymore. What are you guys doing to get these and > equivalent chips? > > I have some 27C256, don't know if those are compatible. Alltronics in San Jose (or thereabouts) used to have a massive stock of older chips. Jon From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 12:18:16 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 10:18:16 -0700 Subject: sourcing Atmel 29Cxxx series flash roms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 12:23 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > I'm almost out of Atmel 29C256 flash roms. I use these primarily for P112 > boot roms. I'd like some more because I still have P112 boards to sell... > and I want them for other projects. Mouser, Digikey, and Jameco don't have > it anymore. What are you guys doing to get these and equivalent chips? Looks like you have updated the P112 parts list to the Atmel AT28C256-15PU which Mouser currently has in stock, so problem solved? https://661.org/p112/parts.html http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Atmel/AT28C256-15PU From sales at elecplus.com Mon Mar 13 12:32:01 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:32:01 -0500 Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: References: <20170313143703.2E48C18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <014801d29c1f$b9951480$2cbf3d80$@com> Well, I look at it this way. I have old copies of OS that have been opened and prob registered somewhere, like old Sun and Solaris. Even Microsoft stuff was never a problem, although I would not go so far as to pull license stickers off recycled computers. Never got in trouble for selling those. So I doubt there will be a problem over these, since they do not deal specifically with security or anything. A 26 year old manual is not going to excite anyone too much. Cindy From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Mar 13 12:02:05 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:02:05 -0400 Subject: sourcing Atmel 29Cxxx series flash roms In-Reply-To: <58C6CB5A.5020303@pico-systems.com> References: <58C6CB5A.5020303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7a13e80a-5595-825b-81f3-b0ea55c12f62@verizon.net> On 3/13/17 12:39 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 03/13/2017 02:23 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> >> I'm almost out of Atmel 29C256 flash roms. I use these primarily for >> P112 boot roms. I'd like some more because I still have P112 boards >> to sell... and I want them for other projects. Mouser, Digikey, and >> Jameco don't have it anymore. What are you guys doing to get these >> and equivalent chips? >> >> > I have some 27C256, don't know if those are compatible. Alltronics in > San Jose (or thereabouts) used to have a massive stock of older chips. > > Jon > > FYI: 27Cxxx is an EPprom 28Cxxx is an EEprom 29Cxxx is a flash prom Then can be pin compatible in SOME system but they program very differently. IT the system expects to be able to rewrite some locatons then you need EEPROM. If the system expects to be able to rewrite blocks then it s flash. If you put a Eprom in you can do none of those things without a UVlamp and an external programmer(most cases). The P112 can use all or any save for being in system writable if needed. Allison From david4602 at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 12:28:40 2017 From: david4602 at gmail.com (David Schmidt) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:28:40 -0400 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61e5e7dd-1db3-53f7-6a2a-ae9f298e6dc1@gmail.com> On 3/13/2017 1:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:57:54 -0400 > From: Joe Giliberti > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro > > The bootstrapping option is grayed out in ADT so I can't do that. I > don't have access to my usual tools for the next few days, so I can't > loop the pins (I've also engaged your question on the ADTPro support forum... that's probably a better place to debug this. But for the group...) Assuming there isn't a hardware issue like the null modem being plugged into the wrong DIN5 socket on the IIc, my guess is there's a bit-width issue with Java. First, some background: it sounds like you've been hacking around with (the location of) the RXTX serial library, which should not at all be necessary; it should be left where it is after unzipping the ADTPro distribution. Also, it's unusual for Windows not to recognize the FTDI-based chip in your UGREEN adapter; it should be automatically downloaded and installed. You should not need to install it manually. You should see the COM port populate in the Windows hardware manager when you plug it in (and the device driver is correctly installed). You said your Windows was version 7, 64-bit. Let's check Java. Go to a command line, and run 'java -version'. The build identifier will let us know if it's 32- or 64-bit. If it doesn't match your OS, that's the reason why ADTPro can't see the serial port (through RXTX). - David From steve at oldcomputers.net Mon Mar 13 14:10:14 2017 From: steve at oldcomputers.net (Oldcomputers) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:10:14 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show References: Message-ID: Get your systems on TV! Begin forwarded message: > From: Olivia Tanner > Date: March 13, 2017 at 11:45:13 AM PDT > To: steve at oldcomputers.net > Subject: Fwd: Looking for Apollo Workstations > > Hello Steve, > > I am working on an AMC TV series called "Halt & Catch Fire" and I came across your website during my search for Apollo Workstations. The show is set in 1993, and we're looking for three complete workstations from that era. Would you have any that we could possibly purchase or rent? If not, would you know of another place I could look? > > I didn't see these on your list of items, but we are also interested in Sun SparcStation 10 workstations and Silicon Graphics workstations from 1993 and before. > > Please let me know as soon as you have a chance if you would be willing to work with us. Thank you very much for your time! > > All the best, > > Olivia > > > Olivia Tanner > > Set Dec Coordinator > "Halt & Catch Fire"/ Season 4 > Stalwart Films, LLC > 4280 Northeast Expressway, Atlanta, GA 30340 > c: 661-889-3282 / o: 404-662-4052 > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 13 14:46:41 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:46:41 -0600 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <377cb432-1749-94e3-3e11-714e9d8e923a@dunnington.plus.com> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> <377cb432-1749-94e3-3e11-714e9d8e923a@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <56e6dbb3-d8ec-3226-941b-2d28a429affb@jetnet.ab.ca> What did you do? 99% of all my cctalk is now in my spam filter. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 14:49:14 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:49:14 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wonder if they would ship my crimson just to get it on the show... Would be cool. I have Indy's but you can get those for the cost of shipping... On Mar 13, 2017 4:42 PM, "Oldcomputers via cctalk" wrote: > Get your systems on TV! > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Olivia Tanner > > Date: March 13, 2017 at 11:45:13 AM PDT > > To: steve at oldcomputers.net > > Subject: Fwd: Looking for Apollo Workstations > > > > Hello Steve, > > > > I am working on an AMC TV series called "Halt & Catch Fire" and I came > across your website during my search for Apollo Workstations. The show is > set in 1993, and we're looking for three complete workstations from that > era. Would you have any that we could possibly purchase or rent? If not, > would you know of another place I could look? > > > > I didn't see these on your list of items, but we are also interested in > Sun SparcStation 10 workstations and Silicon Graphics workstations from > 1993 and before. > > > > Please let me know as soon as you have a chance if you would be willing > to work with us. Thank you very much for your time! > > > > All the best, > > > > Olivia > > > > > > Olivia Tanner > > > > Set Dec Coordinator > > "Halt & Catch Fire"/ Season 4 > > Stalwart Films, LLC > > 4280 Northeast Expressway, Atlanta, GA 30340 > > c: 661-889-3282 / o: 404-662-4052 > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 13 14:55:00 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:55:00 -0400 Subject: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Be sure to ask what they will do with those devices. I've read some horror stories about people who provide stuff to moviemakers only to find out afterwards that they have been destroyed as part of the film. That may not apply here, but still, it's worth getting the right guarantees in writing, and a very substantial insurance. paul > On Mar 13, 2017, at 3:10 PM, Oldcomputers via cctalk wrote: > > Get your systems on TV! > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Olivia Tanner >> Date: March 13, 2017 at 11:45:13 AM PDT >> To: steve at oldcomputers.net >> Subject: Fwd: Looking for Apollo Workstations >> >> Hello Steve, >> >> I am working on an AMC TV series called "Halt & Catch Fire" and I came across your website during my search for Apollo Workstations. The show is set in 1993, and we're looking for three complete workstations from that era. Would you have any that we could possibly purchase or rent? If not, would you know of another place I could look? >> >> I didn't see these on your list of items, but we are also interested in Sun SparcStation 10 workstations and Silicon Graphics workstations from 1993 and before. >> >> Please let me know as soon as you have a chance if you would be willing to work with us. Thank you very much for your time! >> >> All the best, >> >> Olivia >> >> >> Olivia Tanner >> >> Set Dec Coordinator >> "Halt & Catch Fire"/ Season 4 >> Stalwart Films, LLC >> 4280 Northeast Expressway, Atlanta, GA 30340 >> c: 661-889-3282 / o: 404-662-4052 >> From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 15:03:57 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:03:57 -0400 Subject: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Would not blow up my crimson, but indys are not exactly valuable. kinda cool if they blow it up. Wish i had that cdc mainframe from die hard before that encounterr with the bullets.... --devin On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Be sure to ask what they will do with those devices. I've read some > horror stories about people who provide stuff to moviemakers only to find > out afterwards that they have been destroyed as part of the film. > > That may not apply here, but still, it's worth getting the right > guarantees in writing, and a very substantial insurance. > > paul > > > On Mar 13, 2017, at 3:10 PM, Oldcomputers via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Get your systems on TV! > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > >> From: Olivia Tanner > >> Date: March 13, 2017 at 11:45:13 AM PDT > >> To: steve at oldcomputers.net > >> Subject: Fwd: Looking for Apollo Workstations > >> > >> Hello Steve, > >> > >> I am working on an AMC TV series called "Halt & Catch Fire" and I came > across your website during my search for Apollo Workstations. The show is > set in 1993, and we're looking for three complete workstations from that > era. Would you have any that we could possibly purchase or rent? If not, > would you know of another place I could look? > >> > >> I didn't see these on your list of items, but we are also interested in > Sun SparcStation 10 workstations and Silicon Graphics workstations from > 1993 and before. > >> > >> Please let me know as soon as you have a chance if you would be willing > to work with us. Thank you very much for your time! > >> > >> All the best, > >> > >> Olivia > >> > >> > >> Olivia Tanner > >> > >> Set Dec Coordinator > >> "Halt & Catch Fire"/ Season 4 > >> Stalwart Films, LLC > >> 4280 Northeast Expressway, Atlanta, GA 30340 > >> c: 661-889-3282 / o: 404-662-4052 > >> > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 13 15:07:27 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:07:27 -0400 Subject: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e298777-08d1-ffc0-ed50-b72ea780e1dd@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-03-13 3:55 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Be sure to ask what they will do with those devices. I've read some horror stories about people who provide stuff to moviemakers only to find out afterwards that they have been destroyed as part of the film. > > That may not apply here, but still, it's worth getting the right guarantees in writing, and a very substantial insurance. Get the script. If it says "Earth is destroyed, the programmers failed" then probably balk. --T > > paul > >> On Mar 13, 2017, at 3:10 PM, Oldcomputers via cctalk wrote: >> >> Get your systems on TV! >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: Olivia Tanner >>> Date: March 13, 2017 at 11:45:13 AM PDT >>> To: steve at oldcomputers.net >>> Subject: Fwd: Looking for Apollo Workstations >>> >>> Hello Steve, >>> >>> I am working on an AMC TV series called "Halt & Catch Fire" and I came across your website during my search for Apollo Workstations. The show is set in 1993, and we're looking for three complete workstations from that era. Would you have any that we could possibly purchase or rent? If not, would you know of another place I could look? >>> >>> I didn't see these on your list of items, but we are also interested in Sun SparcStation 10 workstations and Silicon Graphics workstations from 1993 and before. >>> >>> Please let me know as soon as you have a chance if you would be willing to work with us. Thank you very much for your time! >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Olivia >>> >>> >>> Olivia Tanner >>> >>> Set Dec Coordinator >>> "Halt & Catch Fire"/ Season 4 >>> Stalwart Films, LLC >>> 4280 Northeast Expressway, Atlanta, GA 30340 >>> c: 661-889-3282 / o: 404-662-4052 >>> > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 13 15:15:45 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:15:45 -0700 Subject: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: <2e298777-08d1-ffc0-ed50-b72ea780e1dd@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2e298777-08d1-ffc0-ed50-b72ea780e1dd@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5c039e79-29b9-d7f3-f2aa-ad901bfc2492@bitsavers.org> > If it says "Earth is destroyed, the programmers failed" You appear to have no clue what "Halt and Catch Fire" is. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 13 15:18:55 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:18:55 -0400 Subject: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: <5c039e79-29b9-d7f3-f2aa-ad901bfc2492@bitsavers.org> References: <2e298777-08d1-ffc0-ed50-b72ea780e1dd@telegraphics.com.au> <5c039e79-29b9-d7f3-f2aa-ad901bfc2492@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2017-03-13 4:15 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> If it says "Earth is destroyed, the programmers failed" > > > You appear to have no clue what "Halt and Catch Fire" is. > > I googled. Still relevant. :D Anyway Paul's comment was meant generally. --T From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 13 15:19:19 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:19:19 +0000 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/03/2017 20:57, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" wrote: > The bootstrapping option is grayed out in ADT so I can't do that. I > don't have access to my usual tools for the next few days, so I can't > loop the pins > I've replied on FB but for completeness and historical recording I'll put it here too. Granted the PC currently in use is a 32bit XP machine so I could make sure everything was working on a real 16550 UART before going over to the USB adapter but I'll try a win 7 64bit machine when I get the chance. My adapter is a clone one with the CH340 chipset used and abused on arduino clones so I already had the driver package, it was discovered as COM4. Fire up ADTPro via the .bat file, go to serial setup to make sure COM4 is selected along with '//c with imagewriter cable' then plug in the //c and boot to the ] prompt followed by: IN#2 14B On the PC go to 'bootstrapping -> ProDOS -> speediboot' and hit OK...up she comes. I've just seen a message from David Schmidt, if anyone knows why yours doesn't work he will given that he wrote ADTPro in the first place :) Cheers > On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 5:28 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk > wrote: >> On 12/03/2017 01:52, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" >> wrote: >> >>> Not great news :( >>> The computer recognized the serial port on COM5 and ADTPro says that >>> it is connected. I am using the null modem cable from RetroFloppy for >>> the //c and the Radioshack cable with the Prolific chipset (I switched >>> over to this one because I thought this problem was caused by the >>> other cable.) I set the working directory in ADT where the DSK files >>> are and set the baud rate in Windows, ADT on the PC and ADT on the //c >>> all to 19200. When I boot up the //c, I select (R)ecieve, punch in the >>> filename, hit enter and...Host Timeout. >>> Any idea what might not be working now? >>> >>> I really appreciate everyone's help >>> >> >> You can check if the PC is talking to the //c by doing a bare metal >> speediboot - this will check the comms are working: >> >> http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/bootstrap.html >> >> Can you do a lookback test on the USB adapter by looping pins 2&3 then using >> PuTTY to talk to itself? >> >> -- >> Adrian/Witchy >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >> collection? >> >> -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 13 15:24:09 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:24:09 -0400 Subject: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: <5c039e79-29b9-d7f3-f2aa-ad901bfc2492@bitsavers.org> References: <2e298777-08d1-ffc0-ed50-b72ea780e1dd@telegraphics.com.au> <5c039e79-29b9-d7f3-f2aa-ad901bfc2492@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4bcfb83e-186b-37a7-b4ea-d4f2222935f3@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-03-13 4:15 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> If it says "Earth is destroyed, the programmers failed" > > > You appear to have no clue what "Halt and Catch Fire" is. > > ...But if the TITLE of the show says "stuff catches fire" that's a pretty big warning right there. Seriously, though, there should be an efficient way of aligning hoarders and set dressers. Especially in my town Toronto, which is full of prop shops since so much film and TV is done here. I've got a Televideo terminal, among other things, that's dying to embrace a retirement of film cameos. --T From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 13 15:45:59 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:45:59 +0000 Subject: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: <4bcfb83e-186b-37a7-b4ea-d4f2222935f3@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2e298777-08d1-ffc0-ed50-b72ea780e1dd@telegraphics.com.au> <5c039e79-29b9-d7f3-f2aa-ad901bfc2492@bitsavers.org>, <4bcfb83e-186b-37a7-b4ea-d4f2222935f3@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: The director can and do make changes to props. Even insured, one may still find significant damage to equipment loaned to any of the entertainment business. You'll get payed what ever the insurance company figures is far. A better way to deal with it is to have a deposit an what the terms are for refund of the deposit. That way the production company deals with the insurance company. You make the deposit what you feel like. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Toby Thain via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 1:24:09 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show On 2017-03-13 4:15 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> If it says "Earth is destroyed, the programmers failed" > > > You appear to have no clue what "Halt and Catch Fire" is. > > ...But if the TITLE of the show says "stuff catches fire" that's a pretty big warning right there. Seriously, though, there should be an efficient way of aligning hoarders and set dressers. Especially in my town Toronto, which is full of prop shops since so much film and TV is done here. I've got a Televideo terminal, among other things, that's dying to embrace a retirement of film cameos. --T From js at cimmeri.com Mon Mar 13 16:09:51 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:09:51 -0500 Subject: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: <4bcfb83e-186b-37a7-b4ea-d4f2222935f3@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2e298777-08d1-ffc0-ed50-b72ea780e1dd@telegraphics.com.au> <5c039e79-29b9-d7f3-f2aa-ad901bfc2492@bitsavers.org> <4bcfb83e-186b-37a7-b4ea-d4f2222935f3@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <58C70A9F.1080605@cimmeri.com> On 3/13/2017 3:24 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2017-03-13 4:15 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >>> If it says "Earth is destroyed, the programmers failed" >> >> >> You appear to have no clue what "Halt and Catch Fire" is. >> >> > > > ...But if the TITLE of the show says "stuff catches fire" that's a > pretty big warning right there. The episode where a truckload of computers caught fire has already passed. The show generally appeasr to treat the machinery respectfully, except some of the actors have a penchant for putting food or beverages on top of various units which -- I don't know about you -- makes me fidgety. - J. From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 17:22:03 2017 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 18:22:03 -0400 Subject: help needed installing USB to Serial Cable for ADTPro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bingo! Thanks man! On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > On 12/03/2017 20:57, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" > wrote: > >> The bootstrapping option is grayed out in ADT so I can't do that. I >> don't have access to my usual tools for the next few days, so I can't >> loop the pins >> > > I've replied on FB but for completeness and historical recording I'll put it > here too. Granted the PC currently in use is a 32bit XP machine so I could > make sure everything was working on a real 16550 UART before going over to > the USB adapter but I'll try a win 7 64bit machine when I get the chance. > > My adapter is a clone one with the CH340 chipset used and abused on arduino > clones so I already had the driver package, it was discovered as COM4. > > Fire up ADTPro via the .bat file, go to serial setup to make sure COM4 is > selected along with '//c with imagewriter cable' then plug in the //c and > boot to the ] prompt followed by: > > IN#2 > 14B > > On the PC go to 'bootstrapping -> ProDOS -> speediboot' and hit OK...up she > comes. > > I've just seen a message from David Schmidt, if anyone knows why yours > doesn't work he will given that he wrote ADTPro in the first place :) > > Cheers > > >> On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 5:28 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk >> wrote: > >>> On 12/03/2017 01:52, "Joe Giliberti via cctalk" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Not great news :( >>>> The computer recognized the serial port on COM5 and ADTPro says that >>>> it is connected. I am using the null modem cable from RetroFloppy for >>>> the //c and the Radioshack cable with the Prolific chipset (I switched >>>> over to this one because I thought this problem was caused by the >>>> other cable.) I set the working directory in ADT where the DSK files >>>> are and set the baud rate in Windows, ADT on the PC and ADT on the //c >>>> all to 19200. When I boot up the //c, I select (R)ecieve, punch in the >>>> filename, hit enter and...Host Timeout. >>>> Any idea what might not be working now? >>>> >>>> I really appreciate everyone's help >>>> >>> >>> You can check if the PC is talking to the //c by doing a bare metal >>> speediboot - this will check the comms are working: >>> >>> http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/bootstrap.html >>> >>> Can you do a lookback test on the USB adapter by looping pins 2&3 then using >>> PuTTY to talk to itself? >>> >>> -- >>> Adrian/Witchy >>> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >>> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >>> collection? >>> >>> > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 13 17:24:18 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX documentation In-Reply-To: <20170313154443.C3A7918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170313154443.C3A7918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > This entire conversation is completely absurd. On Mon, 13 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Perhaps. > But she did ask "Am I legally allowed to resell these?" - which is rather a > different question from 'If you were me, would you just go ahead and sell > these?' (My answer to the latter question, BTW, is 'Yes.') Thank you. We don't agree on all the details, but it's a worthwhile discussion when kept factually accurate. For example, there is no lack of copyright in "abandonware", but it is true that some things will not be pursued. She should definitely sell them. On THAT, we all agree. Whether that is completely legal is unclear, but on a 26 year old manual, the likelihood of repercussions is miniscule. It turns out that they are NOT materials created by the people giving the courses, but instead are [excerpted?] photocopies of manuals put out by IBM. Therefore, license issues are rather unlikely. Operating in good faith, she can ASSUME that the course purveyors had authorization for making those copies. > Yes, I know that in so carefully parsing her statement, I'm acting like a > lawyer. So sue me! ;-) What she should do, and what is technically legal overlap, but are not completely congruent. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Mar 13 19:23:48 2017 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:23:48 -0700 Subject: No food/drinks in the terminal room, was Re: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: <58C70A9F.1080605@cimmeri.com> References: <2e298777-08d1-ffc0-ed50-b72ea780e1dd@telegraphics.com.au> <5c039e79-29b9-d7f3-f2aa-ad901bfc2492@bitsavers.org> <4bcfb83e-186b-37a7-b4ea-d4f2222935f3@telegraphics.com.au> <58C70A9F.1080605@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49558f33-6489-5030-984a-08e2414fa67e@crash.com> On 03/13/2017 14:09, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > ... except > some of the actors have a penchant for putting food or beverages on top > of various units which -- I don't know about you -- makes me fidgety. In other words, the same penchant -- and response -- as when these units were new... Some things never change. ;) --S. From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Mar 13 21:50:37 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:50:37 -0700 Subject: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please all be careful here. Myself and a friend lent some beautiful Teletype Model 28's ASRs and KSRs with special reperfs, etc. My friend, the real TTY expert, accompanied the machines on set of a TV pilot ("GOOD GIRLS REVOLT "). When they were returned to him, all three of his machines were destroyed. Mine fared better but his were destroyed. And yes, he put a claim into his insurance, but the machines are not easily replaced. On the greenkeys list (where tty's are discussed) there are many horror stories of equipment rentals gone bad. We all want the history preserved and one way to do that is to reintroduce new audiences to historic technology. So these movies and TV shows have their place. Just don't lend anything you aren't prepared to have returned to you in pieces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Girls_Revolt Here are some pictures of the set where the machines were used). http://w2hx.com/x/TTY/GoodGirlsRevolt/ 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 3:55 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show Be sure to ask what they will do with those devices. I've read some horror stories about people who provide stuff to moviemakers only to find out afterwards that they have been destroyed as part of the film. That may not apply here, but still, it's worth getting the right guarantees in writing, and a very substantial insurance. paul > On Mar 13, 2017, at 3:10 PM, Oldcomputers via cctalk wrote: > > Get your systems on TV! > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Olivia Tanner >> Date: March 13, 2017 at 11:45:13 AM PDT >> To: steve at oldcomputers.net >> Subject: Fwd: Looking for Apollo Workstations >> >> Hello Steve, >> >> I am working on an AMC TV series called "Halt & Catch Fire" and I came across your website during my search for Apollo Workstations. The show is set in 1993, and we're looking for three complete workstations from that era. Would you have any that we could possibly purchase or rent? If not, would you know of another place I could look? >> >> I didn't see these on your list of items, but we are also interested in Sun SparcStation 10 workstations and Silicon Graphics workstations from 1993 and before. >> >> Please let me know as soon as you have a chance if you would be willing to work with us. Thank you very much for your time! >> >> All the best, >> >> Olivia >> >> >> Olivia Tanner >> >> Set Dec Coordinator >> "Halt & Catch Fire"/ Season 4 >> Stalwart Films, LLC >> 4280 Northeast Expressway, Atlanta, GA 30340 >> c: 661-889-3282 / o: 404-662-4052 >> From steveb at quickweb.co.uk Mon Mar 13 14:23:56 2017 From: steveb at quickweb.co.uk (Steve Browne) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:23:56 +0000 Subject: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 March 2017 at 19:10, Oldcomputers via cctalk wrote: Get your systems on TV! Great show; glad to see that they are sourcing proper kit as well. From cramcram at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 15:45:21 2017 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:45:21 -0700 Subject: VT52 keyboard question Message-ID: Hi, The "2" key on my VT52 is very hard to use. You've gotta pound it and you might get 2 "2"s for your trouble. I assume that the keyboard switch is made of unobtanium (If you know of a substitute chime in) so I'm thinking of swapping it for the "COPY" key which I guess is useless unless you have the built-in thermal printer. 1. Do you simply pull the keyboard button off the switch or is there a trick involved? 2. Any other gotcha's? Thanks, Marc From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Mar 13 16:07:47 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:07:47 +0000 Subject: VT52 keyboard question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Van: Marc Howard via cctech Verzonden: maandag 13 maart 2017 21:45 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Onderwerp: VT52 keyboard question Hi, The "2" key on my VT52 is very hard to use. You've gotta pound it and you might get 2 "2"s for your trouble. I assume that the keyboard switch is made of unobtanium (If you know of a substitute chime in) so I'm thinking of swapping it for the "COPY" key which I guess is useless unless you have the built-in thermal printer. 1. Do you simply pull the keyboard button off the switch or is there a trick involved? 2. Any other gotcha's? Thanks, Marc My guess is that the VT52, VT55, VT05 and LA30 are identical. The key fits snug on a plastic white pin, shaped as a ?+?. Over the plastic pin is a small spring. If the spring is not installed, the pin will simply ?fall down? due to gravity, causing a continuous ?key pressed? signal. You can (gently) pull the key cap. If the pin does not ?fall down?, you have the reason why it is hard to use: dirt or dust. Henk, PA8PDP From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 16:12:43 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:12:43 -0400 Subject: VT52 keyboard question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Marc Howard via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > The "2" key on my VT52 is very hard to use. You've gotta pound it and you > might get 2 "2"s for your trouble. > > I assume that the keyboard switch is made of unobtanium (If you know of a > substitute chime in) so I'm thinking of swapping it for the "COPY" key > which I guess is useless unless you have the built-in thermal printer. > > 1. Do you simply pull the keyboard button off the switch or is there a > trick involved? > > 2. Any other gotcha's? > > Thanks, > > Marc > Have you tried cleaning, etc? I assume so but I'd be curious if there is a specific restoration process for the VT50/52. I have not investigated this myself, but eventually I will need to probably. Bill From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Mar 13 16:24:10 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:24:10 -0400 Subject: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show In-Reply-To: <58C70A9F.1080605@cimmeri.com> References: <2e298777-08d1-ffc0-ed50-b72ea780e1dd@telegraphics.com.au> <5c039e79-29b9-d7f3-f2aa-ad901bfc2492@bitsavers.org> <4bcfb83e-186b-37a7-b4ea-d4f2222935f3@telegraphics.com.au> <58C70A9F.1080605@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <391ffc84-4169-ad6f-7e09-9ad28826b9ed@snarc.net> Vintage Computer Federation sometimes rents out systems for prop use. When we do, we require the renter to sign an equipment handling contract. It stipulates what they must/must not do. From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Mar 13 16:52:32 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:52:32 -0700 Subject: VT52 keyboard question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24D7D485-F4E7-42C2-99B7-A25EB6FEBC1B@fritzm.org> > On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Marc Howard via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> The "2" key on my VT52 is very hard to use. You've gotta pound it and you >> might get 2 "2"s for your trouble. I've a similar key on my VT52 -- will be diving in there sometime soon to check it out, but it might take me a little while to get to it... Will follow-up here when I do with whatever I find out. --FritzM. From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 17:17:08 2017 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 18:17:08 -0400 Subject: VT52 keyboard question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark, Do you have a picture of what's underneath the key cap? I think those are Hi-Tek switches underneath. I believe they are similar to the VT-100 keyboard shown here: https://deskthority.net/wiki/DEC_VT100 You can pull the key cap off as long as you do it straight up. Find out what kind of key switch it has and we'll go from there. Santo On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 5:12 PM, william degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Marc Howard via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > The "2" key on my VT52 is very hard to use. You've gotta pound it and > you > > might get 2 "2"s for your trouble. > > > > I assume that the keyboard switch is made of unobtanium (If you know of a > > substitute chime in) so I'm thinking of swapping it for the "COPY" key > > which I guess is useless unless you have the built-in thermal printer. > > > > 1. Do you simply pull the keyboard button off the switch or is there a > > trick involved? > > > > 2. Any other gotcha's? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Marc > > > > Have you tried cleaning, etc? I assume so but I'd be curious if there is a > specific restoration process for the VT50/52. I have not investigated this > myself, but eventually I will need to probably. > > Bill > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 13 19:35:36 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:35:36 -0400 Subject: VT52 keyboard question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0406267E-6344-48E4-AD69-C663BE2CA1D4@comcast.net> > On Mar 13, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Marc Howard via cctech wrote: > > Hi, > > The "2" key on my VT52 is very hard to use. You've gotta pound it and you > might get 2 "2"s for your trouble. > > I assume that the keyboard switch is made of unobtanium (If you know of a > substitute chime in) so I'm thinking of swapping it for the "COPY" key > which I guess is useless unless you have the built-in thermal printer. Sure. It might be cleanable. VT52 keys are crossed wedges, gold plated, with the key pluger in between which moves out of the way when you push the key. They were incredibly reliable. > 1. Do you simply pull the keyboard button off the switch or is there a > trick involved? As I recall, they come right off, just pull up. paul From tpisek at pobox.com Mon Mar 13 23:22:56 2017 From: tpisek at pobox.com (Todd Pisek) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:22:56 -0500 Subject: HP 21MX (2105) needs good home Message-ID: The 21mx has found a new home. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 01:30:00 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:30:00 +0000 Subject: VT52 keyboard question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Marc Howard via cctech wrote: > Hi, > > The "2" key on my VT52 is very hard to use. You've gotta pound it and you > might get 2 "2"s for your trouble. > > I assume that the keyboard switch is made of unobtanium (If you know of a > substitute chime in) so I'm thinking of swapping it for the "COPY" key > which I guess is useless unless you have the built-in thermal printer. On the VT52s/VT55 that I've worked on... It's actually not a separate switch. There's an single moulded frame for the entire keyboard. Each swtich constists of a pair of contacts which naturally touch, a return spring and a plunger that keeps the contacts apart when the key is not pressed. You can pull off the keycap. Often carefully cleaning the contacts (which are then visible) will help. The plunger and spring pull out too, officially you are not supposed to re-use the plunger but you have to now. The contacts can be desoldered from the track side of the board and pulled out. There was a special tool to put them back without damaging them, it is possible (but tricky) to do it with long-nosed pliers. Avoid removing the contacts unless you really have to replace them with ones from another key or keyboard. It's the same type of contact mechanism as in the early TRS-80 Model 1 and the HP85. The technical reference / service manuals for these 2 machines may be of interest. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 14 08:20:48 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 09:20:48 -0400 Subject: VT52 keyboard question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9548185C-E0F3-4CB7-8CA2-0759DE60BB81@comcast.net> > On Mar 13, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > > ... > My guess is that the VT52, VT55, VT05 and LA30 are identical. No, fortunately not. The LA30 was notorious for having a very bad and very unreliable keyboard. Some GT40s had that same keyboard as well, I don't remember if that changed later. The keycap shapes were different too: larger and more square with sharper corners. I don't remember the VT05 well enough, it may have been like the LA30 or different yet again. The VT52 keyboard technology shows up in other VT variants of the same family: VT55, VT61/t, VT62. It is also used in the LA36. Similarly, VT100 style keyboards show up in other devices of that era: Gigi for example. And the LA120 may use that generation of switches, I don't remember anymore. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 14 11:25:20 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 16:25:20 +0000 Subject: sourcing Atmel 29Cxxx series flash roms In-Reply-To: <7a13e80a-5595-825b-81f3-b0ea55c12f62@verizon.net> References: <58C6CB5A.5020303@pico-systems.com>, <7a13e80a-5595-825b-81f3-b0ea55c12f62@verizon.net> Message-ID: What about the package? Is it a DIP or one of the other three possible packages. DIPs are going out of style. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of allison via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 10:02:05 AM To: Jon Elson; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: sourcing Atmel 29Cxxx series flash roms On 3/13/17 12:39 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 03/13/2017 02:23 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> >> I'm almost out of Atmel 29C256 flash roms. I use these primarily for >> P112 boot roms. I'd like some more because I still have P112 boards >> to sell... and I want them for other projects. Mouser, Digikey, and >> Jameco don't have it anymore. What are you guys doing to get these >> and equivalent chips? >> >> > I have some 27C256, don't know if those are compatible. Alltronics in > San Jose (or thereabouts) used to have a massive stock of older chips. > > Jon > > FYI: 27Cxxx is an EPprom 28Cxxx is an EEprom 29Cxxx is a flash prom Then can be pin compatible in SOME system but they program very differently. IT the system expects to be able to rewrite some locatons then you need EEPROM. If the system expects to be able to rewrite blocks then it s flash. If you put a Eprom in you can do none of those things without a UVlamp and an external programmer(most cases). The P112 can use all or any save for being in system writable if needed. Allison From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 14 12:09:06 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:09:06 +0000 Subject: Optical Mouse Pads Message-ID: I am continuing the clean out of my vast collection of things I no longer have a need for. (Yes, everything you see me offer here was at one time used by me in real life!) I have three different model Optical Mouse Pads. NDE400306-003F NCW 402105-003 NDD 402105-003A Over time I have had optical mice from Sun3's, Sun4's, SGI's and even the old VisiOn mouse. I don't believe any of these to be from the Sun3 as it used bigger squares than these. Might not be any interest as it probably costs more to mail them (at least one at a time) than they are worth (unless someone needs one badly to complete a classic system!) So, anybody interested? What would you offer? (Expect about $7.00 for a Priority Mail Envelope which can hold more than one at a time.) bill From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Mar 14 12:11:20 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:11:20 -0600 Subject: VT52 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <9548185C-E0F3-4CB7-8CA2-0759DE60BB81@comcast.net> References: <9548185C-E0F3-4CB7-8CA2-0759DE60BB81@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mar 13, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> My guess is that the VT52, VT55, VT05 and LA30 are identical. > > No, fortunately not. The LA30 was notorious for having a very bad and very unreliable keyboard. Some GT40s had that same keyboard as well, I don't remember if that changed later. The keycap shapes were different too: larger and more square with sharper corners. I know that back in the day, we had about a dozen VT52 and 3 VT50's. They were the same keyboard, but with different internal circuit boards (we had a few former VT50's that were upgraded to VT52's, at least according to the techs that I worked with at the time). I still remember having to edit my FORTRAN code for a while on a UPPERCASE ONLY terminal until I got enough seniority to warrant moving up a dual-case terminal.... thankfully these were all replaced by VT100s over the years I worked there and my role shifted a bit to needing a VT100 to support a customer that had an application that used the advanced features of the VT100: double size characters, line drawing boxes, etc. Man, that was a million years ago... Warner From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 14 12:20:00 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 10:20:00 -0700 Subject: Univac I memory tank Message-ID: http://www.ebay.com/itm/162428766985 Asked if the mercury was still in it. They ignored me. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 14 12:24:06 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 10:24:06 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys Message-ID: <31befeff-eeb4-101e-b716-dd44e453eccf@bitsavers.org> www.ebay.com/itm/122383386508 still a few hours to go, hovering at $20K From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 12:47:27 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:47:27 -0400 Subject: Optical Mouse Pads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170314134727.e09e473d0acb1c33dea98053@gmail.com> Bill, I'd be interested in one compatible with Sun 5 mice -- right now I use a printed paper mousepad when I get out my Sun boxen. If no one else is interested, I'd like one or two of them, and if they're otherwise going in the trash, I know a few people I could give them to. Does $5 each + shipping sound fair? I have no idea what they're worth, I haven't ever really sought them out. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:09:06 +0000 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > I am continuing the clean out of my vast collection of things I no longer have a > need for. (Yes, everything you see me offer here was at one time used by me > in real life!) > > I have three different model Optical Mouse Pads. > > NDE400306-003F > NCW 402105-003 > NDD 402105-003A > > Over time I have had optical mice from Sun3's, Sun4's, SGI's and even the > old VisiOn mouse. I don't believe any of these to be from the Sun3 as it used > bigger squares than these. Might not be any interest as it probably costs more > to mail them (at least one at a time) than they are worth (unless someone needs > one badly to complete a classic system!) > > So, anybody interested? What would you offer? (Expect about $7.00 for a Priority > Mail Envelope which can hold more than one at a time.) > > bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 14 13:00:57 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 18:00:57 +0000 Subject: Optical Mouse Pads In-Reply-To: <20170314134727.e09e473d0acb1c33dea98053@gmail.com> References: , <20170314134727.e09e473d0acb1c33dea98053@gmail.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Systems Glitch via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 1:47 PM To: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Subject: Re: Optical Mouse Pads Bill, I'd be interested in one compatible with Sun 5 mice -- right now I use a printed paper mousepad when I get out my Sun boxen. If no one else is interested, I'd like one or two of them, and if they're otherwise going in the trash, I know a few people I could give them to. Does $5 each + shipping sound fair? I have no idea what they're worth, I haven't ever really sought them out. ___________________________________ Not sure if the Sun 5 was different (didn't even know there was a Sun 5). But other than the Sun 3 with the bigger squares these look exactly the same. $5 each for two sounds good to me. Postage will be $7.00 according tot he receipt from the last envelope I sent out. So $17. Give me an address and I will pack them up. Don't know if I willg et to the PO tomorrow, though. We have over 2 feet of snow and it is still coming down. Roads here are all closed and the PO may not even open up tomorrow. But I expect I can get there by Wednesday or Thursday latest. Just wrap some money in a sheet of paper and mail it to: Bill Gunshannon 508 Bidwell Hill Rd. Lake Ariel, PA 18436 bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 14 13:16:44 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 18:16:44 +0000 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool. I need on of those. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 10:20:00 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Univac I memory tank http://www.ebay.com/itm/162428766985 Asked if the mercury was still in it. They ignored me. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 14 13:18:17 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:18:17 -0700 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <147A1DBF-499E-4DF3-A909-B498F4C9B321@aracnet.com> What scares me the most is that there are already 4 bids on it. Zane > On Mar 14, 2017, at 11:16 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > Cool. I need on of those. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 10:20:00 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Univac I memory tank > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/162428766985 > > Asked if the mercury was still in it. They ignored me. > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 13:21:40 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:21:40 -0500 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: <147A1DBF-499E-4DF3-A909-B498F4C9B321@aracnet.com> References: <147A1DBF-499E-4DF3-A909-B498F4C9B321@aracnet.com> Message-ID: its been pulled On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > What scares me the most is that there are already 4 bids on it. > > Zane > > > > > > On Mar 14, 2017, at 11:16 AM, dwight via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Cool. I need on of those. > > > > Dwight > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via > cctalk > > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 10:20:00 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Univac I memory tank > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/162428766985 > > > > Asked if the mercury was still in it. They ignored me. > > > > From isking at uw.edu Tue Mar 14 13:29:47 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:29:47 -0700 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: References: <147A1DBF-499E-4DF3-A909-B498F4C9B321@aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > its been pulled > > It's still there when I click on the link, five days to go. Boy howdy, this would be a headache to get shipped! Even if the mercury is gone, there are almost certain to be residuals. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 14 13:58:59 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:58:59 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <31befeff-eeb4-101e-b716-dd44e453eccf@bitsavers.org> References: <31befeff-eeb4-101e-b716-dd44e453eccf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Good grief! When did Lisa stuff get so expensive? I just did a search for Apple Lisa on eBay. Am I this out of touch with the hobby? Zane > On Mar 14, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > www.ebay.com/itm/122383386508 > > still a few hours to go, hovering at $20K > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Mar 14 13:59:18 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:59:18 -0700 Subject: NeXT in Toronto/Canada - was Re: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: <201703090301.WAA29375@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4330b2ab7c5beb0228a3bdb57d201632@blit.ca> <3C94D8A5-42A7-417F-BE78-C2CD94E09589@swri.edu> <201703090301.WAA29375@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <86EBE55E-4383-4431-9819-65934C8FA3D1@eschatologist.net> On Mar 8, 2017, at 7:01 PM, Mouse via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm also a Cube owner in Toronto. Maybe we should start a local >> collector's / user's group :D > >> Any others care to speak up? > > I'm in Ottawa. I've got a - very small! - collection of NeXT hardware. > A slab or two, at least one megapixel display (the 2bpp greyscale > kind), some small number of keyboards, a mouse or two, that's probably > about it. I gave away my Cube years back. > > I've been tempted to get rid of them, but feel sentimental enough about > having developed MouseX that I've so far avoided doing so. Also, I've > been holding out the (admittedly slight) hope that hardware > documentation will surface for the interesting hardware; I do not run > closed-source software, so that's important to me. Sufficient hardware documentation has been available to write emulators (Previous) and port NetBSD. That said, I don?t understand why one would have NeXT hardware and then run NetBSD on it instead of the NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP operating system that was designed for it and is period-appropriate. If you?re not going to use it as NeXT hardware, maybe someone who will use it that way would be happy to have it. Also, especially for software that?s (1) built using a common and well-undertsood architecture, (2) not ?secured? in any way, and (3) not being updated, you really can maintain and improve it yourself pretty reasonably. Heck, there?s a pretty accurate Open Source decompiler for Objective-C called ?code-dump? (derived Steve Nygard?s ?class-dump?) to which it would probably be straightforward to add 68040 support? -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Mar 14 14:08:42 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:08:42 -0700 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:26 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > > OK anyone else have a cube out there that is cosmetically decent? does > not need to be internally complete? > > Ours is a bit of a beater for the display What?s wrong with yours that you can?t clean it up for a non-operational display? -- Chirs From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 14 14:11:17 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:11:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys Message-ID: <20170314191117.D8ED118C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Zane Healy > Good grief! When did Lisa stuff get so expensive? When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god? Noel From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 14 14:45:01 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <20170314191117.D8ED118C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170314191117.D8ED118C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Zane Healy > > > Good grief! When did Lisa stuff get so expensive? > > When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god? > Right about the time that whole "computer for the rest of us" started... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Mar 14 14:51:15 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:51:15 -0400 Subject: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware Message-ID: <55ab5d.3d10fea.45f9a3b3@aol.com> Hi CHris - We wanted one cleaner! for the exterior view. also 2 are good. one can be showed set up and another one for people to peek inside. OK did that with pair of Altairs which due to conditions worked out well had pristine looking Altair with replaced power supply and mother board ... blah right? but left closed for exterior view in display looks great. had 2ed one nasty out side and front pane front... not so nice l but inside it has the correct orig. wimpy power supply and the little linked together mother board segments with 100 jumper wires holding each together... this MADE A GREAT INTERIOR display. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 3/14/2017 12:08:45 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cmhanson at eschatologist.net writes: On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:26 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > > OK anyone else have a cube out there that is cosmetically decent? does > not need to be internally complete? > > Ours is a bit of a beater for the display What?s wrong with yours that you can?t clean it up for a non-operational display? -- Chirs From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 14 15:31:17 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 16:31:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys Message-ID: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: geneb >> When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god? > Right about the time that whole "computer for the rest of us" started... Yes, of course: nobody had thought of a cheap personal computer before him. (Which reminds me, does the CHM have a Datapoint 2200? If not, we really out to try to round one up for them.) Or even a personal computer. (Ditto for the LINC.) Although I suppose you might have been talking about the software. I mean, without that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he invented, to allow ordinary people to use a computer, where would we be? Look, I fully admit that Steve Jobs was a _very_ sharp person who had a _tremendous_ influence. (Every time I hear someone saying marketing people are useless - first up against the wall, etc - I reply 'No, only bad ones - which is a lot of them. The very best ones, like Steve Jobs, are worth their weight in triple-refined iridium. A _good_ marketing person can tell you what customers _want_. A _truly great_ one can tell you what they _need_, but don't yet even realize they do.') However, the people (and there are quite a few of them) who have gone way off the deep edge, and have turned him (and Apple) into some sort of overblown cult, just don't have a balanced perspective. There are plenty of people out there who deserve at least as much credit for the information society we now live in, who are almost totally unknown to the population at large; starting (probably) with Licklider. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 14 15:40:19 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:40:19 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 3/14/17 1:31 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > does the CHM have a Datapoint 2200? http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1621.99A From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 14 15:41:47 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 20:41:47 +0000 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 4:31 PM Although I suppose you might have been talking about the software. I mean, without that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he invented, to allow ordinary people to use a computer, where would we be? _________________________________________ Invented??? Are we ignoring the guy they hired that brought the whole idea of a GUI and mouse from Xerox Parc? bill From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 14 15:46:31 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: geneb > > >> When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god? > > > Right about the time that whole "computer for the rest of us" started... > > Yes, of course: nobody had thought of a cheap personal computer before him. I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic. :) > Although I suppose you might have been talking about the software. I mean, > without that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from > Xerox, to allow ordinary people to use a computer, where would we be? Fixed that for ya. :) > Look, I fully admit that Steve Jobs was a _very_ sharp person who had a > _tremendous_ influence. > Bah, he was an ego-driven trinket salesman. His trinkets quit being any good after the IIgs. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From rwiker at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 15:49:45 2017 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 21:49:45 +0100 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2110249F-3171-45B3-ACB9-28E15E3D03E8@gmail.com> > On 14 Mar 2017, at 21:31 , Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > (Every time I hear someone saying marketing people are useless - first up > against the wall, etc - I reply 'No, only bad ones - which is a lot of them. > The very best ones, like Steve Jobs, are worth their weight in triple-refined > iridium. A _good_ marketing person can tell you what customers _want_. A > _truly great_ one can tell you what they _need_, but don't yet even realize > they do.') > > > However, the people (and there are quite a few of them) who have gone way off > the deep edge, and have turned him (and Apple) into some sort of overblown > cult, just don't have a balanced perspective. On the other hand, Steve Jobs wasn't really just a marketing wizard ? he was a visionary, although some of his visions were less than great. He was also a stickler for perfection and largely unwilling to make compromises. So, Steve Jobs may not have invented the personal computer, or graphical user interfaces, but he should get some of the credit for the fact that we're not all running Windows on variations of crappy PC hardware. From coreyvcf at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 14:29:36 2017 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:29:36 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <31befeff-eeb4-101e-b716-dd44e453eccf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <37F21061-6F7F-4CA7-A301-F0183C3AC250@gmail.com> When most twiggy media stopped being produced and twiggy drives got thrown into the trash as people upgraded their Lisa 1 to a Lisa 2. corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Mar 14, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > Good grief! When did Lisa stuff get so expensive? I just did a search for Apple Lisa on eBay. Am I this out of touch with the hobby? > > Zane > > > > >> On Mar 14, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> www.ebay.com/itm/122383386508 >> >> still a few hours to go, hovering at $20K >> > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 14 16:07:05 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys Message-ID: <20170314210705.3FE2A18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: geneb > I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic. :) With a steam-shovel... :-) >> that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from Xerox > Fixed that for ya. :) Well, technically, as you probably know, the mouse came from Engelbart (well, his group; I'm not sure who the individual was); and the display, I'm honestly not sure of. I know the Knight TV system at the AI Lab was a very early bit-mapped display, but I don't know where the idea first appeared. (There were of course influential earlier display systems, such as the one on SAGE, althoug those were of course all stroke-based systems, given the limited memory of the period.) Windows and menus are AFAIK from PARC, but maybe there are antecedents I don't know of. > Bah, he was an ego-driven trinket salesman. His trinkets quit being any > good after the IIgs. :) Now I'm not sure how serious _you_ are being! :-) As to the first, there is some truth to it, but like many (all) humans, he was complex... Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 14 16:10:05 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys Message-ID: <20170314211005.C948D18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: geneb > I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic. :) With a steam-shovel... :-) >> that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from Xerox > Fixed that for ya. :) Well, technically, as you probably know, the mouse came from Engelbart (well, his group; I'm not sure who the individual was); and the display, I'm honestly not sure of. I know the Knight TV system at the AI Lab was a very early bit-mapped display, but I don't know where the idea first appeared. (There were of course influential earlier display systems, such as the one on SAGE, althoug those were of course all stroke-based systems, given the limited memory of the period.) Windows and menus are AFAIK from PARC, but maybe there are antecedents I don't know of. > Bah, he was an ego-driven trinket salesman. His trinkets quit being any > good after the IIgs. :) Now I'm not sure how serious _you_ are being! :-) As to the first, there is some truth to it, but like many (all) humans, he was complex... Hard to say what else he would have done, could he have gone on; perhaps not so much (he was getting up there, and people do slow down), but I suspect his early death was a serious loss (in terms of further advances). Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 14 16:40:14 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 14:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <31befeff-eeb4-101e-b716-dd44e453eccf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Good grief! When did Lisa stuff get so expensive? I just did a search > for Apple Lisa on eBay. Am I this out of touch with the hobby? Yes, we are. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 14 16:41:57 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:41:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Univac I memory tank Message-ID: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dwight Kelvey > I need on of those. I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, of course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in the world? Noel PS: Sorry about the previous mostly-duplicate message; I hit the 'interrupt' key and it did the wrong thing. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 14 16:45:54 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 21:45:54 +0000 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: It is not likely to be made to work, easily. From what I was told, the mercury ones needed to be rebuilt after some time. Most likely because the mercury dissolved one of the metals used in side. I can't imagine what that might be and why they continued to have such a problem but that is what I hear someplace. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 2:41:57 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Univac I memory tank > From: Dwight Kelvey > I need on of those. I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, of course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in the world? Noel PS: Sorry about the previous mostly-duplicate message; I hit the 'interrupt' key and it did the wrong thing. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Mar 14 16:49:42 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 14:49:42 -0700 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6FEF9685-79EC-4C18-B299-6EC61BD1B8AE@shaw.ca> On 2017-Mar-14, at 2:41 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Dwight Kelvey >> I need on of those. > > I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, of > course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in > the world? Depends on how particular you want to be about categorisation, there are some number of 60s calculators using magnetostrictive delay line memory still in existence and working (I've got several). From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 14 16:59:32 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:59:32 -0400 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: References: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Mar 14, 2017, at 5:45 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > It is not likely to be made to work, easily. From what I was > told, the mercury ones needed to be rebuilt after some time. > Most likely because the mercury dissolved one of the metals > used in side. > > I can't imagine what that might be and why they continued > to have such a problem but that is what I hear someplace. > > Dwight Possible, but it seems odd. Mercury dissolves lots of metals (iron is one exception), forming alloys called amalgams. But that's well known, you would expect people making mercury based devices to know it and avoid it. paul From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Mar 14 17:00:27 2017 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:00:27 -0500 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, > of > course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in > the world? > If that's from a Univac I, I'd love to see it in a museum as well! According to Wikipedia there were only 18 Univac I installations, so this is a pretty rare piece. -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 14 17:11:02 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:11:02 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <31befeff-eeb4-101e-b716-dd44e453eccf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9FB20AA9-BE8B-4F93-A7E3-60BB4D161511@aracnet.com> > On Mar 14, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> Good grief! When did Lisa stuff get so expensive? I just did a search for Apple Lisa on eBay. Am I this out of touch with the hobby? > > Yes, we are. LOL, thanks Fred! I?ll freely admit that I?m out of touch, as these days my focus is my photography. Since I need to free up space to build a better darkroom, the rise in value is of interest. Maybe I can free up some space and fund the my darkroom project. :-) Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 14 17:13:29 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314191117.D8ED118C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: >> When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god? > Right about the time that whole "computer for the rest of us" started... an unreliable source, who was working in Apple at the time, said that it was being touted "for the unwashed masses, or at least ignorant rich folk". Somebody was smart enough to latch onto that and change it from third person to first person plural. Using computer phobia to market computers was a smart move. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 14 17:22:41 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <9FB20AA9-BE8B-4F93-A7E3-60BB4D161511@aracnet.com> References: <31befeff-eeb4-101e-b716-dd44e453eccf@bitsavers.org> <9FB20AA9-BE8B-4F93-A7E3-60BB4D161511@aracnet.com> Message-ID: >>> Good grief! When did Lisa stuff get so expensive? I just did a >>> search for Apple Lisa on eBay. Am I this out of touch with the hobby? >> Yes, we are. On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Zane Healy wrote: > LOL, thanks Fred! I?ll freely admit that I?m out of touch, as these > days my focus is my photography. Since I need to free up space to build > a better darkroom, the rise in value is of interest. Maybe I can free > up some space and fund the my darkroom project. :-) Ah, out of touch on that, as well! "But, you can do ANYTHING with Photoshop!" Yeah. right. Want a stabilization processor? Most of a ragged Beseler 45, plus a dichroic head that I never got around to rebuilding and mating? Movie film daylight developing tank? (motorized back-and-forth reel to reel 16mm, 35mm, but not large diameter reels) Fujinon desktop holography camera? (needs new laser tube) bellows for 35mm? tilt and shift? (I am keeping my Hama/Kenlock/Spiratone for now, but getting rid of the rest) Selling my Linhof and Tachihara soon. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 17:30:45 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 18:30:45 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <20170314211005.C948D18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170314211005.C948D18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > > I know the Knight TV system at the AI Lab was a very early bit-mapped > display, but I don't know where the idea first appeared. (There were of > course influential earlier display systems, such as the one on SAGE, > althoug > those were of course all stroke-based systems, given the limited memory of > the period.) > > Anyone know about the Volscan "GUI" that allowed a person to point a light gun at a display, points representing planes, in order to automate landing them? I made a page about the Volscan in 2006, may need updates. "Volscan Light Gun for assigning Antracs (Auto-matic tracking-while-scanning)." but here it is. http://vintagecomputer.net/volscan.cfm bILL From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 17:37:32 2017 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:37:32 -0500 Subject: Photography, was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2017 5:24 PM, "Fred Cisin via cctalk" wrote: Ah, out of touch on that, as well! "But, you can do ANYTHING with Photoshop!" Yeah. right. Want a stabilization processor? Most of a ragged Beseler 45, plus a dichroic head that I never got around to rebuilding and mating? Movie film daylight developing tank? (motorized back-and-forth reel to reel 16mm, 35mm, but not large diameter reels) Fujinon desktop holography camera? (needs new laser tube) bellows for 35mm? tilt and shift? (I am keeping my Hama/Kenlock/Spiratone for now, but getting rid of the rest) Selling my Linhof and Tachihara soon. Just got through setting up a darkroom in my upstairs bathroom. Did some developing years ago, but it's nice getting back into it. Looking at doing some wet plate work next, but I haven't found a cheap source of ether yet. Kyle From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Mar 14 17:39:14 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:39:14 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys Message-ID: I don't know if I'd pay $25k for Twiggys but I understand the impulse. ?The problem is, what happens when the novelty wears off? ?I also wonder what the long term value is as generations that experienced these things pass on to those who've never known a day withot a smartphone. That's a worry for another day though. ?For now.. I'm thinking about grabbing a shovel and going digging for Twiggy gold at a certain dump in Logan. Sent from my Samsung device From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 14 17:44:56 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > I don't know if I'd pay $25k for Twiggys but I understand the impulse. >?The problem is, what happens when the novelty wears off? ?I also > wonder what the long term value is as generations that experienced these > things pass on to those who've never known a day withot a smartphone. > That's a worry for another day though. ?For now.. I'm thinking about > grabbing a shovel and going digging for Twiggy gold at a certain dump in > Logan. If you had a pair of Twiggys, but no Lisa, could you create a USB interface to use them on a modern machine? From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 14 17:49:53 2017 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 18:49:53 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Jobs had to get fired for Apple to recall the expansion capabilities of the Apple II days and start making the Mac II series. -----Original Message----- From: geneb via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 4:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Pair of Twiggys On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: Bah, he was an ego-driven trinket salesman. His trinkets quit being any good after the IIgs. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 17:52:15 2017 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 18:52:15 -0400 Subject: Photography, was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looking at doing some wet plate work next, but I haven't found a cheap source of ether yet. Maybe a surgical supply place in a bad neighborhood? From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 14 17:58:36 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:58:36 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <16DF85C4-ED50-4DB5-8814-520DA1770C97@aracnet.com> I?m reminded of the current, and ludicrous, Mac Pro. :-( Zane > On Mar 14, 2017, at 3:49 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > > Jobs had to get fired for Apple to recall the expansion capabilities of the Apple II days and start making the Mac II series. > > -----Original Message----- From: geneb via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 4:46 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Pair of Twiggys > > On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > Bah, he was an ego-driven trinket salesman. His trinkets quit being any > good after the IIgs. :) > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 14 17:59:54 2017 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:59:54 -0700 Subject: Photography, was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <866F3A3C-6733-43F1-BD0E-C3DFED26AC24@aracnet.com> > On Mar 14, 2017, at 3:37 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > On Mar 14, 2017 5:24 PM, "Fred Cisin via cctalk" > wrote: > > > Ah, out of touch on that, as well! > "But, you can do ANYTHING with Photoshop!" Yeah. right. > > Want a stabilization processor? > Most of a ragged Beseler 45, plus a dichroic head that I never got around > to rebuilding and mating? > Movie film daylight developing tank? (motorized back-and-forth reel to > reel 16mm, 35mm, but not large diameter reels) > Fujinon desktop holography camera? (needs new laser tube) > bellows for 35mm? tilt and shift? (I am keeping my > Hama/Kenlock/Spiratone for now, but getting rid of the rest) > Selling my Linhof and Tachihara soon. > > > Just got through setting up a darkroom in my upstairs bathroom. Did some > developing years ago, but it's nice getting back into it. Looking at doing > some wet plate work next, but I haven't found a cheap source of ether yet. > > Kyle These days, even when printing in the darkroom, photoshop may be involved. Lots of folks are creating digital negatives. I don?t know if you can even get paper for a stabilization processor, not to mention I doubt it would work for me. My main enlarger (currently the only usable one) is a old Beseler 45. I spent a day last summer getting it working better. My latest score was two Jobo CPE2 processors in the last month. Between the two, I only need one more tank (and technically I don?t need it). I can now do daylight rotary processing of anything from 35mm to 11x14 (I can currently shoot up to 8x10). So far I?ve only used it to process 8x10 sheet film. One of my next projects needs to be to get a proper darkroom setup, so that I can heat it, or cool it. That way I can work year around. Ideally it would include room for things like drum scanners and LF printers, but that?s dreaming. :-) Zane From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Mar 14 18:53:53 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 16:53:53 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <059f01d29d1e$3dd8e510$b98aaf30$@bettercomputing.net> I'm assuming anything can be interfaced to old tech. But if I had Twiggys I do have a Lisa they could go into. Or I'd just sell them and buy something a lot more useful. :) What'd be cool if replicas could be made somehow. I don't know what all goes into a disk drive but I imagine it's in the realm of possibility at least. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 3:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Pair of Twiggys On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Brad H via cctalk wrote: > I don't know if I'd pay $25k for Twiggys but I understand the impulse. > The problem is, what happens when the novelty wears off? I also >wonder what the long term value is as generations that experienced >these things pass on to those who've never known a day withot a smartphone. > That's a worry for another day though. For now.. I'm thinking about >grabbing a shovel and going digging for Twiggy gold at a certain dump >in Logan. If you had a pair of Twiggys, but no Lisa, could you create a USB interface to use them on a modern machine? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 14 19:45:37 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <059f01d29d1e$3dd8e510$b98aaf30$@bettercomputing.net> References: <059f01d29d1e$3dd8e510$b98aaf30$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Brad H wrote: > I'm assuming anything can be interfaced to old tech. But if I had > Twiggys I do have a Lisa they could go into. Or I'd just sell them and > buy something a lot more useful. :) > What'd be cool if replicas could be made somehow. I don't know what all > goes into a disk drive but I imagine it's in the realm of possibility at > least. It would be possible, but a bit of work to make them. A lot depends on whether you want to make replicas, or compatible. Jobs wanted a closed system with significantly increased difficulty for after-market supply of common items. The bizarre Twiggy drive system did not provide improvement over 96tpi double density ("quad") standard systems. A long time ago, Eric Smith explained to me the details about them (he could probably build one): 1) track to track spacing is 62.5? tracks per inch, as opposed to the "standard" 48tpi or 96tpi (or less common 100tpi (Micropois)) That should not be very hard to do, but not trivial. 2) They used variable rotation speed, from 200RPM? to 350RPM?, to make less variation in the FCPI (flus changes per inch) Relatively trivial, for a drive to be used on something other than the original Lisa, as the rotational speed could be left constant, and vary the data transfer rate. 3) Instead of a "normal" pair of facing heads, they wanted to keep single sided heads, with their felt pressure pads, so they went with that strange double slot, providing unmatched opportunities for always leaving a thumbprint on the media. That could be easily worked around, by simply using conventional double sided head, and maybe, in some cases, losing half a revolution waiting for the desired sector to come around. Very few pieces of software (copy protection) rely on the relative timing of the two sides. Since the Twiggy heads are connected to the same mechanism, but on opposite sides of the spindle, when one head is hubward, the other one is rimward, so for most purposes, switching to a conventional head system would provide improvements in speed. The optimum speed method for reading a Lisa Twiggy would be to stick with one side, reading all tracks, and then when at the last track, the other head would be in position to read the first track of that side. That is not the same as what we have become accustomed to, where after reading one track, switch to the other head, and read that track of the other side, and then step to get to the next two tracks. 4) GCR. I don't know the specific GCR pattern used, but that information is out there, or can be empirically determined. 5a) There is an extra hole, for latching the disk in place? or for later plans for a disk changer? 5b) Notch out of one corner to avoid ibverted insertion. 5c) Write protect/enable notch is in a different position. Trivial. (I was amazed that on the "Computer Bowl" quiz show, nobody on Bill Gates' team could remember where the write protect notch on an 8" disk was!) Total capacity was 850K? Media appears to be 600 Oersted (same as 1.2M) You will not be able to use a Western Digital/IBM style of disk controller, due to the GCR, non-WD/IBM sector headers, and maybe the variable speed. BUT, if you manage the track spacing, then it should be possible to read them with a flux transition board, such as Kryoflux. Or, design and build a suitable logic board. There are a couple of ways to manage the track spacing, ranging from analog positioner (Amlyn), extremely crude milling a new "record" for an SA390/SA400, different diameter winding hub for split band positioner, gearing interposed between stepper and positioner, different stepper motor, etc. I know none of the details for doing those, but it does not seem insurmountable. Judging by the eBay response, it looks like a replica (or counterfeit?) would be far more valuable than a usable substitute. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 14 20:13:28 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 18:13:28 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <059f01d29d1e$3dd8e510$b98aaf30$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <320a942f-cf94-7321-3da5-653cda1eb743@bitsavers.org> On 3/14/17 5:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Judging by the eBay response, it looks like a replica (or counterfeit?) would be far more valuable than a usable > substitute. I keep waiting to see how much a Macintosh version of the Twiggy would sell for. The interface is completely different that the one used on Lisa and I have never seen one for sale. 1.2meg media works fine in a Twiggy jacket. The mechanics of the drive positioner stinks. I spent months recovering Twiggy media in 2015 and keeping the heads clean and the pads on was a PITA. You have to completely disassemble the drive to work on the back head. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Mar 14 20:22:29 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 21:22:29 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <320a942f-cf94-7321-3da5-653cda1eb743@bitsavers.org> References: <059f01d29d1e$3dd8e510$b98aaf30$@bettercomputing.net> <320a942f-cf94-7321-3da5-653cda1eb743@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2017-03-14 9:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/14/17 5:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Judging by the eBay response, it looks like a replica (or counterfeit?) would be far more valuable than a usable >> substitute. > > I keep waiting to see how much a Macintosh version of the Twiggy would sell for. > The interface is completely different that the one used on Lisa and I have never seen one for sale. > > 1.2meg media works fine in a Twiggy jacket. > > The mechanics of the drive positioner stinks. I spent months recovering Twiggy media in 2015 > and keeping the heads clean and the pads on was a PITA. You have to completely disassemble the > drive to work on the back head. > > Only you, Al, only you, would have the patience. --T From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Mar 14 20:23:19 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 18:23:19 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2017, at 1:46 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > >> Although I suppose you might have been talking about the software. I mean, >> without that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from Xerox, to allow ordinary people to use a computer, where would we be? > > Fixed that for ya. :) Two problems with this repetition of a bogus meme: 1. Xerox got pre-IPO Apple stock in exchange for the PARC visits and the chance to use and build on what they saw. 2. What the Apple folks saw and what was implemented for Lisa and then Macintosh were vastly different. Just a few examples: - Overlapping windows that update even when partially obscured. - The top-of-screen menu bar. - The one-button mouse. - Open & save dialog boxes. A lot of research and development went into the Lisa and Macintosh interfaces. They weren?t just ?copied from Xerox.? If you sit someone who knows how to use a Mac in front of a circa-1979 Xerox Alto, they?ll be pretty mystified. Some of it is documented on the Folklore site, a large portion is documented in ?Inventing the Lisa Human Interface,? a retrospective paper written by a couple of the Lisa folks for ACM?s Interactions journal about 20 years ago. -- Chris From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 14 20:34:44 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 18:34:44 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <31f3e07b-988c-48a6-17bd-cfa076ee1637@bitsavers.org> On 3/14/17 6:23 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > a large portion is documented in ?Inventing the Lisa Human Interface,? a retrospective paper written by a couple of the Lisa folks for ACM?s Interactions journal about 20 years ago. > http://www.guidebookgallery.org/articles/inventingthelisauserinterface From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 21:03:22 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 19:03:22 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <31befeff-eeb4-101e-b716-dd44e453eccf@bitsavers.org> References: <31befeff-eeb4-101e-b716-dd44e453eccf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > www.ebay.com/itm/122383386508 > > still a few hours to go, hovering at $20K > And the answer is $32,100.52 (plus $20.95 shipping) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 23:17:57 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:17:57 -0500 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: References: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: The mercury also gets dirty from its own oxidization On Mar 14, 2017 5:00 PM, "Ben Sinclair via cctalk" wrote: > On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, > > of > > course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left > in > > the world? > > > > If that's from a Univac I, I'd love to see it in a museum as well! > According to Wikipedia there were only 18 Univac I installations, so this > is a pretty rare piece. > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 23:52:56 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:52:56 -0500 Subject: Pair of Twiggys Message-ID: -------- Original message --------From: Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> >> www.ebay.com/itm/122383386508 >> >> still a few hours to go, hovering at $20K > > >And the answer is $32,100.52 (plus $20.95 >shipping) Ugh.. they always get ya on the shipping. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Mar 14 23:57:14 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 21:57:14 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10543d65-219a-3463-21fa-8f31712fc218@jwsss.com> On 3/14/2017 9:52 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: >> And the answer is $32,100.52 (plus $20.95 >shipping) > Ugh.. they always get ya on the shipping. Mr. 595 must be pissed off. guess he thought 32000 was a ridiculous enough high number he'd win. From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 00:02:56 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:02:56 -0500 Subject: Pair of Twiggys Message-ID: This statement is hurting my brain. I was never an Apple (company) user or fan but personally felt the Apple product line was hacker friendly before the Apple II c threatened to void your warranty if opened, then the Mac seemed to follow similar unfriendly EULAS. But then again I wouldn't have guess GUI would win the UI war either when it was so great to type exactly what you needed with minimal system resources. Admittedly my opinions seem to only satisfy myself ;-) You prefer Apple and expansions or Mac II? -------- Original message --------From: TeoZ via cctalk Date: 3/14/17 5:49 PM (GMT-06:00) To: geneb , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Pair of Twiggys Jobs had to get fired for Apple to recall the expansion capabilities of the Apple II days and start making the Mac II series. From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 00:40:44 2017 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 06:40:44 +0100 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <22BC6957-714A-4280-BF3C-1C851E3C99E8@gmail.com> > On 14 Mar 2017, at 23:49 , TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > > Jobs had to get fired for Apple to recall the expansion capabilities of the Apple II days and start making the Mac II series. Jobs left Apple in 1985 and returned in 1997. The Macintosh II was introduced in 1987; two years after Jobs left and 10 years before he returned. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 15 01:43:58 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:43:58 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4f1f3d48-d536-8585-b787-ee10e356843c@sydex.com> On 03/14/2017 10:02 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > This statement is hurting my brain. I was never an Apple (company) > user or fan but personally felt the Apple product line was hacker > friendly before the Apple II c threatened to void your warranty if > opened, then the Mac seemed to follow similar unfriendly EULAS. But > then again I wouldn't have guess GUI would win the UI war either when > it was so great to type exactly what you needed with minimal system > resources. Admittedly my opinions seem to only satisfy myself ;-) You > prefer Apple and expansions or Mac II? -------- Original message Apple still up to the same business fighting the same battle. No "right to repair" old iJunk: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/source-apple-will-fight-right-to-repair-legislation --Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Mar 15 03:11:10 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 09:11:10 +0100 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170315081109.GM15948@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 05:41:57PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Dwight Kelvey > > > I need on of those. > > I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, of > course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in > the world? CHM has one: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X976.89 It used to be on display, perhaps it still is. /P From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 04:44:03 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 04:44:03 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <56e6dbb3-d8ec-3226-941b-2d28a429affb@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> <377cb432-1749-94e3-3e11-714e9d8e923a@dunnington.plus.com> <56e6dbb3-d8ec-3226-941b-2d28a429affb@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I was wondering why 99% of my cctalk shows up as "read mail".. =/ What a PITA, I can't tell what I have read from what I have not read - is this part of the 'new' system? On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:46 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > What did you do? 99% of all my cctalk is now in my spam filter. > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 15 02:07:49 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 07:07:49 +0000 Subject: Ardent Titan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Camiel, First let me say you are one lucky guy. I had one of these in my office for a few months, after their demo in Houston we were in constant contact to promote and sell them. Ardent, later Stardent supplied the hardware and we ported an application to show at the Offshore Technology Conference, in our booth. Great guys, and it got a lot of interest - it was a 3D model of downhole pipe exhibiting corrosion, 100K rendered polygons and you could swing it around in realtime, very impressive hardware for the 80's. I have maintained my interest, they dissolved in spite of a very impressive machine. The visualization pipeline was spun off as a separate company, AVS. Kubota (who purchased Stardent) put the rendering software, Dore' in the public domain. I have built it here under FreeBSD on a PC; it was in the ports system for a while, and without to much messing with, I got the demos running (FLAG, a flag blowing in the wind, with controls for wind speed and direction, controlled by the knob box) are still impressive. Let me know how you come along, I really want to see you bring this up. I can certainly copy Dore' over to you. Another great resource, is the story of the machine itself. It was a promotional book given to prospective clients, but a very detailed and well written book: The Architecture of Supercomputers, Titan a Case Study Daniel P. Siewiorek, Philip John Koopman, Jr. ISBN 0-12-6430-60-8 I see its on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Architecture-Supercomputers-Titan-Case-Study/dp/1483246590 Good luck, and keep in touch on how this is coming. Regards, Randy Dawson The Architecture of Supercomputers: Titan, a Case Study ... www.amazon.com The Architecture of Supercomputers: Titan, A Case Study describes the architecture of the first member of an entirely new computing class, the graphic supercomputing ... ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 8:24 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Ardent Titan Last Friday, I finally received a shipment of 1980's minisupercomputers from the US that I've been working on since September. One of the systems is an Ardent Titan, which to my knowledge was the first (mini-) supercomputer to come with an integrated high-end graphics subsystem (1280x1024 at 60Hz, hardware spheres, antialiasing, and cast shadows). After careful checking, I powered it on yesterday, and got as far as trying to boot it; unfortunately, the harddisk does not contain the OS, but I'm trying to get access to an installation tape. There's a full writeup about my efforts this weekend on my website: http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/42-repair/576-ardent-titan-power-on [http://www.vaxbarn.com/images/ardent/titan/a_02.jpg] Ardent Titan power-on www.vaxbarn.com VAXBARN: Camiel Vanderhoeven's computer collection A description with some pictures of the Ardent can be found here: http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/other-bits/565-ardent-titan Ardent Titan - VAXBARN www.vaxbarn.com This Ardent Titan is one of the systems donated by a Stanford University professor. They are currently being shipped to me, so I have not been able to inspect these ... Uncrating pictures are here: http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/41-acquisitions/575-supercomputers-have-ar [http://www.vaxbarn.com/images/acq/convex4/20170310_140351.jpg] Supercomputers have arrived www.vaxbarn.com VAXBARN: Camiel Vanderhoeven's computer collection rived Anyone who knows anything about these machines, please contact me! Also, if you have access to installation tapes, manuals, brochures, anything related to these systems, please let me know. Kind regards, Camiel Vanderhoeven From wrm at dW.co.za Wed Mar 15 04:15:33 2017 From: wrm at dW.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:15:33 +0200 Subject: Oki 3305 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20170315110817.125aa9e8@mort.dw.co.za> Hi all OK, following up on my own post here. >I have a couple of Oki 3305BU 1/3 height 5 1/4" drives. > >On startup the motor spins and the heads load, but the heads don't >move. Also, my BIOS tells me I have a drive failure. > >On taking them apart for a bit of a lube I noticed they have EPROM >8748s inside. Could this be the problem, EPROMs lost data? This would >be a first for me, I have EPROMs from the seventies which are still fine. I caused (I have people working for me who are really good at this) the 8748 to be removed from the one PCB. Reading it in my Expro gives me sort-of random results. Looks like some bits are high, some are low, and some float all over the place. No two reads return the same data, but some bytes are constant over two or three reads and other bytes are constant over two or three other reads. Is this the way an EPROM would fail? Seems reasonable to me. Anyway, I guess I'm SOL unless I can find a working drive. As far as I can tell these were used in the Heath / Zenith 170/170 luggables, also in the Morrow Pivot maybe. Tony would probably just rewrite the firmware. It's only 1024 bytes, how hard can it be? :-) Seriously, I am thinking of reading each byte say 100 times, averaging that, and then sticking the whole thing through a disassembler. But it seems a bit of a mammoth task. W From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 15 07:57:11 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314191117.D8ED118C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god? >> Right about the time that whole "computer for the rest of us" started... > > > an unreliable source, who was working in Apple at the time, said that it was > being touted "for the unwashed masses, or at least ignorant rich folk". > Somebody was smart enough to latch onto that and change it from third person > to first person plural. > Using computer phobia to market computers was a smart move. ...and we've been paying for it ever since. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 15 08:07:45 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 06:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <16DF85C4-ED50-4DB5-8814-520DA1770C97@aracnet.com> References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <16DF85C4-ED50-4DB5-8814-520DA1770C97@aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Zane Healy wrote: > I?m reminded of the current, and ludicrous, Mac Pro. :-( > I wish the reply-to pointed at cctalk at classiccmp.org! I just took a peek at the Mac Pro. People actually buy that thing? I just got a Dell Dimension 7910 workstation at work. It cost around $3200 and came with a 10 core, hyperthreaded Xeon CPU (with an open socket for a 2nd), 32GB of RAM (can take 512GB), and something like 6TB of drive space. Apple must seriously depend on people not knowing what the hell they're buying. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 15 08:17:09 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 06:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Chris Hanson wrote: > On Mar 14, 2017, at 1:46 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Although I suppose you might have been talking about the software. I mean, >>> without that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from Xerox, to allow ordinary people to use a computer, where would we be? >> >> Fixed that for ya. :) > > Two problems with this repetition of a bogus meme: > > 1. Xerox got pre-IPO Apple stock in exchange for the PARC visits and the > chance to use and build on what they saw. > > 2. What the Apple folks saw and what was implemented for Lisa and then > Macintosh were vastly different. > Well hooray for Xerox. Apple still obtained the concepts from Xerox, regardless of the mechanism. > - The one-button mouse. Yeah, god forbid you confuse the poor user with more than one button. > interfaces. They weren?t just ?copied from Xerox.? If you sit someone > who knows how to use a Mac in front of a circa-1979 Xerox Alto, they?ll > be pretty mystified. > That's providing you can find one that won't panic and find a safe space after being exposed to a multi-button mouse. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 15 08:21:45 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 06:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <22BC6957-714A-4280-BF3C-1C851E3C99E8@gmail.com> References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22BC6957-714A-4280-BF3C-1C851E3C99E8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Raymond Wiker wrote: >> On 14 Mar 2017, at 23:49 , TeoZ via cctalk wrote: >> >> Jobs had to get fired for Apple to recall the expansion capabilities of the Apple II days and start making the Mac II series. > > Jobs left Apple in 1985 and returned in 1997. The Macintosh II was > introduced in 1987; two years after Jobs left and 10 years before he > returned. It took the engineers 2 years to recover from the electroshock treatments and start designing expansion busses again. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 15 08:32:19 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:32:19 +0000 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: <20170315081109.GM15948@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <20170315081109.GM15948@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I can't imagine why it needed to be reworked. That is only what I was told. I always thought it was kind of funny. The Olivetti used a piece of wire for the delay line. I forget what the Dielh Combitron used but I know it used a two delay lines. One was for registers and the other was for lookup tables that loaded at turn on time from a metal tape ( as I recall ). Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 1:11:10 AM To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Univac I memory tank On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 05:41:57PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Dwight Kelvey > > > I need on of those. > > I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, of > course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in > the world? CHM has one: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X976.89 It used to be on display, perhaps it still is. /P From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 15 10:37:21 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys Message-ID: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Raymond Wiker > Steve Jobs ... was also a stickler for perfection and largely unwilling > to make compromises. Absolutely; and that's a large part of the reason for the success of Apple. His products were just really well done. It's also, I think, a big part of the causality for another Apple characteristic: their push for closed systems. The thing is that Steve wanted to make the user experience as good as possible (another hallmark of Apple stuff) - and when the 'system' includes pieces being independently sourced from multiple entities, it's hard to make that happen - there will be glitches, etc. So that's why he usually wanted to bring the entire thing inside the Apple envelope. > So, Steve Jobs ... should get some of the credit for the fact that > we're not all running Windows on variations of crappy PC hardware. I think that's not accurate; Linux may not have a large user base among non-technical people in the laptop area, but it does show that there are other alternatives. And when it gets to smart-phones, of course, things which are neither Apple nor uSloth are the majority there, no? > From: Chris Hanson > What the Apple folks saw and what was implemented for Lisa and then > Macintosh were vastly different. I don't agree with the "vastly". (Having said that, I salute the Lisa/Mac people for doing a very good job of producing a excellent user interface.) The changes in the interface (menu bar, etc) are not that large; they are mostly minor refinements to the basic image/pointing-based interface pioneered by Xerox. The biggest improvement, IMO, was not in the details of the window system, but that everything used a common user interface - and the lack of that on the Alto was not planned, but more a result of the fact that the Alto was so far into new territory, and not done as an integrated system, but as a platform for research. > - The one-button mouse. Err, some of us don't see that as an 'improvement'... :-) > If you sit someone who knows how to use a Mac in front of a circa-1979 > Xerox Alto, they'll be pretty mystified. Yeah, but that's in good part because the Alto user interface is such a dog's breakfast - Draw is nothing like Bravo is nothing like etc, etc. But, like I said, that was inevitable, given the process that produced the Alto. Noel From rickb at bensene.com Wed Mar 15 10:58:08 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 08:58:08 -0700 Subject: Delay Lines (Was: Univac I memory tank) Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A7B5@mail.bensene.com> Dwight wrote: > The Olivetti used a piece of wire for the delay line. The Programma 101 indeed used a delay line. Such delay lines use magnetostrictive means to push a torque pulse into one end of the wire, as well as detect a torque twist at the other end of the wire. Magnetostrictive materials are typically a metal alloy that lengthens or shortens depending on the polarity of an external magnetic field, and will also generate a small magnetic field if stretched or compressed. In a magnetostrictive delay line thin strips of magnetostrictive metal are attached to opposite points tangential to the circumference of the end of a nickel-alloy(typically) wire. These strips, for whatever reason, are typically called "tapes". Each tape has a small coil of magnet wire surrounding it, wound oppositely around each tape, such that when a short current pulse is sent into the coils, one tape momentarily lengthens, and the other tape contracts, causing a slight but sharp twisting torque to be applied to the wire. This acts to transmit a pulse of energy into the wire. The torque twist mechanically travels through the wire to the other end, where it causes one tape to lengthen slightly, and the other to compress slightly, which induces a small current pulse into the coils around the tapes, which can be amplified to match the electrical characteristics of the original pulse. Sending a current pulse through the coils in one direction causes the twist to occur clockwise, and the pulse going the other direction induces a counter-clockwise twist, allowing ones and zeros to be pushed into the wire as clockwise or counter-clockwise torque twists. The amount of time that elapses (delay) from the pulse being injected to being received at the other end of the wire is based on the metallurgy of the wire, and its length. The wire is capable of remembering some number of torque twists as bits, with a clockwise torque, for example, representing a one, and a counter-clockwise twist representing a zero. The wire was typically arranged in a spiral inside a metal housing. Silicone or rubber supports supported the wire without attenuating the torque pulses in the wire. In some cases, there were "taps" along the length of the wire that used the same transducer method to pick off bits at different delay periods. The use of such delay line technology in calculators arose out of the need to store a moderate number of bits to represent the working registers of the calculator. At the time, magnetic core memory was still quite expensive, integrated circuit technology was in its infancy and too expensive to use for mass storage in a calculator, and it was generally cost and size prohibitive to store the bits required in discrete transistor flip flop storage registers (though a few very early electronic calculators did use this method). Given that delay line technology had been used with success on computers (though the Univac I delay lines were very different than magnetostrictive delay lines), they were a low cost, relatively simple way to provide the small amount of storage required for an electronic calculator. A prime example of the use of magnetostrictive delay lines in a computer was the Packard Bell 250, a low-cost "personal" computer introduced in the early 1960's. The bit-serial nature of the delay line was ideal for a calculator, since a bit serial architecture is coincident with the most efficient way to make an electronic calculator, where raw speed is not a requirement, and minimizing the component count saves money. The serial nature of the delay line means that if a specific bit is needed, the logic must wait around for the bit to arrive at the end of the delay line. This slows down the operation of the device, but in the case of a calculator, where results are subject to human perception, 10s to 100's of milliseconds is well within the acceptable time for a calculation to occur. > I forget what the Dielh Combitron used but I know it used a two delay lines. One was for registers and the other was for lookup tables that loaded at turn on time from a metal tape ( as I recall ). The Diehl Combitron did use two separate delay lines, one for the registers(as well as learn-mode program storage) as mentioned, but the other one wasn't really for lookup tables, but instead stored the operating microcode that made the machine run. The microcode was indeed loaded from a punched metal tape at power-on time. The ingenious design of the Combitron was done by Dr. Stanley Frankel, a nuclear physicist who was deeply involved in the mathematical modeling that made the atom and hydrogen bombs possible. After the Manhattan project ended, he was involved in the design of quite a few computers and calculators. Notable computers that he designed were the Librascope-General Precision LGP-30, the aforementioned Packard Bell 250, and some design work on early General Electric computers. He also designed the Smith Corona/Marchant Cogito 240 (and follow-on Cogito 240SR) electronic calculator, as well as the Diehl Combitron. Many calculator companies used magnetostrictive delay line technology for storage in their earlier calculators, before the time that integrated circuits took over the storage duties. They included Friden(Singer) (all of their in-house designed machines used delay lines, e.g., 130, 132, 115x, 116x), Canon(which made machines for Monroe), Wyle Laboratories (WS-02 and Busicom 202, 207 and 2017), Olivetti (Programma 101 & follow-ons), Sony(early Sobax), Victor(1400-series), Monroe(EPIC 2000/3000, 820/820A), Diehl(which made machines for SCM and Victor), and Olympia. -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 11:07:05 2017 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:07:05 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> <377cb432-1749-94e3-3e11-714e9d8e923a@dunnington.plus.com> <56e6dbb3-d8ec-3226-941b-2d28a429affb@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 4:44 AM, drlegendre . via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was wondering why 99% of my cctalk shows up as "read mail".. =/ > > What a PITA, I can't tell what I have read from what I have not read - is > this part of the 'new' system? > You mean in Gmail? I don't have that problem with mine. Do you perhaps have a filter that automatically marks them read, which wasn't being run before? -- Eric Christopherson From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 11:31:40 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:31:40 +0100 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 15 March 2017 at 02:23, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > A lot of research and development went into the Lisa and Macintosh interfaces. They weren?t just ?copied from Xerox.? If you sit someone who knows how to use a Mac in front of a circa-1979 Xerox Alto, they?ll be pretty mystified. Absolutely -- but people who only know modern GUIs do not know this. I have had just 1 chance to use a live working original Lisa. I was fairly mystified myself. It's radically different from the Mac, and the Lisa was radically different from the Xerox machines, from all the demos I've seen. I wrote here ( https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/03/thank_microsoft_for_linux_desktop_fail/ ) about how much almost all modern desktop GUIs inherit from Windows 95, and how much Windows got from the Mac. Only if you use pre-Windows 3/OS2 PM GUIs do you realise how different, and diverse, they once were. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 11:35:10 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:35:10 +0100 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 15 March 2017 at 14:17, geneb via cctalk wrote: > Well hooray for Xerox. Apple still obtained the concepts from Xerox, > regardless of the mechanism. Only some and only very basic ones. Icons for files, the "OK" and "Cancel" buttons, scroll bars, all kinds of utterly basic stuff were invented at Apple. > Yeah, god forbid you confuse the poor user with more than one button. Jeez, Gene, can't you find some _new_ nonsense? This one is quantifiable and measurable. More buttons means more cognitive delay. For years and decades. It has been _proved_ slower. Yes we're all used to it now, but you just have not read the HCI research if you are still reciting this tired stale old B S. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 15 12:01:39 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:01:39 -0700 Subject: AC magnetic field strengths Message-ID: <92bfdf07-06d2-bb4d-771b-1810637c9217@bitsavers.org> I bought an AlphaLabs GM-2 Gaussmeter for another project, and measured the AC magnetic field strength touching these devices yesterday, since I really didn't have any idea beyond order of magnitude what they might be Handheld tape head demagnetizer: 40 Gauss GC Elec 9317 CRT degausing coil: 70 Gauss Audiolab TD-3 desktop bulk eraser: 1000 Gauss Inmac 7180 or RS 44-233A handheld bulk tape erasers: 2000 Gauss also the DC field of a 1/4" button super magnet like on the backs of clip on badges is about 3000 Gauss From js at cimmeri.com Wed Mar 15 12:19:37 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 12:19:37 -0500 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <58C977A9.9040804@cimmeri.com> On 3/15/2017 11:35 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 15 March 2017 at 14:17, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> Well hooray for Xerox. Apple still obtained the concepts from Xerox, >> regardless of the mechanism. > Only some and only very basic ones. > > Icons for files, the "OK" and "Cancel" buttons, scroll bars, all kinds > of utterly basic stuff were invented at Apple. > >> Yeah, god forbid you confuse the poor user with more than one button. > Jeez, Gene, can't you find some _new_ nonsense? > > This one is quantifiable and measurable. More buttons means more > cognitive delay. Maybe cognitive delay is a good thing. Separates the wheat from the chaff. Eg. "God forbid" there be automobiles with only one button (start). - JS. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 12:27:00 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 18:27:00 +0100 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <58C977A9.9040804@cimmeri.com> References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <58C977A9.9040804@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 15 March 2017 at 18:19, js--- via cctalk wrote: > Maybe cognitive delay is a good thing. Separates the wheat from the chaff. > > Eg. "God forbid" there be automobiles with only one button (start). Heh! Good point. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 12:40:29 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:40:29 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 15 March 2017 at 14:17, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > Well hooray for Xerox. Apple still obtained the concepts from Xerox, > > regardless of the mechanism. > > Only some and only very basic ones. > > Icons for files, the "OK" and "Cancel" buttons, scroll bars, all kinds > of utterly basic stuff were invented at Apple. > The Star introduced the concept of icons representing files (and other things) in 1981. Smalltalk invented scrollbars (they were clumsier than Apple's though) in the mid 70s. Also, don't forget that the Mac was designed by a number of ex-PARC researchers. It may have been invented at Apple, but it was strongly influenced by what went on at PARC. - Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 15 12:50:36 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:50:36 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 3/15/17 10:40 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > the Mac was designed by a number of ex-PARC > researchers. Steve Capps was the only person on the original Mac team who worked at PARC. They were influenced strongly by the UI and graphics work of Lisa. There were several ex-Xerox (PARC and SDD) people on Lisa, Frank Ludolph, for example, who was an author of the Lisa UI paper I pointed to yesterday. Jean-Louis Gass?e was the person who was the manager of engineering when Nubus was added to the Mac. He had "Open Mac" as his license plate at the time. http://kootenaymac.blogspot.com/2016/08/vintage-macintosh-87-open-mac-license.html https://books.google.com/books?id=ED8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT20&lpg=PT20&dq=%22open+mac%22+license+plate&source=bl&ots=GNixQxKrJP&sig=a-22GlibEC6GLAUaEZF0PAgP_qU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI5YWGidnSAhWHwVQKHauYCe8Q6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=%22open%20mac%22%20license%20plate&f=false From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 12:50:30 2017 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 18:50:30 +0100 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On 15 Mar 2017, at 16:37 , Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Raymond Wiker > >> Steve Jobs ... was also a stickler for perfection and largely unwilling >> to make compromises. > > Absolutely; and that's a large part of the reason for the success of Apple. > His products were just really well done. > > It's also, I think, a big part of the causality for another Apple > characteristic: their push for closed systems. The thing is that Steve wanted > to make the user experience as good as possible (another hallmark of Apple > stuff) - and when the 'system' includes pieces being independently sourced > from multiple entities, it's hard to make that happen - there will be > glitches, etc. So that's why he usually wanted to bring the entire thing > inside the Apple envelope. > >> So, Steve Jobs ... should get some of the credit for the fact that >> we're not all running Windows on variations of crappy PC hardware. > > I think that's not accurate; Linux may not have a large user base among > non-technical people in the laptop area, but it does show that there are other > alternatives. And when it gets to smart-phones, of course, things which are > neither Apple nor uSloth are the majority there, no? > I was hoping, for the longest time, that Linux or the various BSDs would break the Windows dominance. That never happened, except for in certain areas, like server and HPC applications. As for smart-phones, it was Apple that introduced the idea of having smart-phones that were almost all battery and display, and using a purely graphical/touch interface. That class of device might have emerged eventually without Apple, but it's a fact that most of the mobile phone vendors had to do a lot of redesign in a short time after the iPhone was introduced (or a few months before, in the case of Google). If you haven't guessed, I like Apple ? for several reasons, but mainly because they make good, solid products that work well, and they actually work well for both ordinary users and enthusiasts. I have absolutely no problem with paying a little extra for a computer that lasts a little longer, keeps its value longer and works better in many ways, both subtle and obvious. From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 13:08:39 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:08:39 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 3/15/17 10:40 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > the Mac was designed by a number of ex-PARC > > researchers. > > Steve Capps was the only person on the original Mac team who worked at > PARC. > They were influenced strongly by the UI and graphics work of Lisa. > Wasn't Bruce Horn at PARC (at least as a student?). But you're right, I should have specified Mac and/or Lisa... - Josh > > There were several ex-Xerox (PARC and SDD) people on Lisa, Frank Ludolph, > for > example, who was an author of the Lisa UI paper I pointed to yesterday. > > Jean-Louis Gass?e was the person who was the manager of engineering when > Nubus > was added to the Mac. He had "Open Mac" as his license plate at the time. > > http://kootenaymac.blogspot.com/2016/08/vintage-macintosh- > 87-open-mac-license.html > > https://books.google.com/books?id=ED8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT20& > lpg=PT20&dq=%22open+mac%22+license+plate&source=bl&ots=GNixQxKrJP&sig=a- > 22GlibEC6GLAUaEZF0PAgP_qU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI5YWGidnSAhWHwVQKHauYC > e8Q6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=%22open%20mac%22%20license%20plate&f=false > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 15 13:41:02 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:41:02 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55f2fd43-fb61-026f-d0d3-e748383476bb@bitsavers.org> On 3/15/17 11:08 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Wasn't Bruce Horn at PARC (at least as a student?). yes, he worked in the Smalltalk group. I also forgot about Bob Beleville. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 15 13:48:19 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > It's also, I think, a big part of the causality for another Apple > characteristic: their push for closed systems. The thing is that Steve wanted > to make the user experience as good as possible (another hallmark of Apple > stuff) - and when the 'system' includes pieces being independently sourced > from multiple entities, it's hard to make that happen - there will be > glitches, etc. So that's why he usually wanted to bring the entire thing > inside the Apple envelope. A closed system (aka "monopoly") has significant characteristics. 1) lack of difficulty integrating "other" peripheral stuff, through greater quality control, and INABILITY to add "other" peripheral stuff. Examples: a) MFM V RLL V ESDI V SCSI hard disks - much more struggle for users than "here is THE drive. Buy it. It JUST works." (Q: which meaning of "just" is that? simply? or barely?) b) specific example: Sunshine EPROM programmer (ISA almost free) specific example: ECC memory board (I don't think that Apple was even using parity) 2) MAJOR hurdles to development of an after-market industry. I've heard that Jobs was displeased when he was shown the numbers of what percentage of Apple2 disk drives were being purchased from vendors other than Apple. Woz ENCOURAGED an after-market ("open" system) Jobs sought to eliminate or at least rein it in. A closed system tends to be more profitable to the controller of it, but can be presented to the public as a means of quality control. Check out the "right to repair" link that Chuck gave us! "Replacing a bad screen on an iPhone must be prevented, because it is TOO DANGEROUS, and a consumer could cut a finger on the broken glass!" > I think that's not accurate; Linux may not have a large user base among > non-technical people in the laptop area, but it does show that there are other > alternatives. And when it gets to smart-phones, of course, things which are > neither Apple nor uSloth are the majority there, no? On computers, the OS is predominantly Windoze and Apple, with Linux and Chrome as less common, but present alternatives. on Phones, the OS is predominantly Android and Apple. How successful will Microsoft's tablet OS be? Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux? > > What the Apple folks saw and what was implemented for Lisa and then > > Macintosh were vastly different. > I don't agree with the "vastly". (Having said that, I salute the Lisa/Mac > people for doing a very good job of producing a excellent user interface.) "copied from" V "based on" V "inspired by"? Apple didn't "steal" it; the PARC researchers encouraged them to go with it. Apple was not that open when it was their turn to be copied from, when DRI produced GEM, or MICROS~1 produced Windoze 2. (There was a conflict, that keeps recurring in this industry! Apple had agreed to let MICROS~1 use certain stuff in Windoze; but then felt that Windoze 2 was a different product (citing "ALL NEW!" marketing) that wasn't included in the agreement. But, that is not the only time. Seattle Computer Products was "grandfathered" royalty free unlimited license to MS-DOS. When SCP was on the rocks and considering selling out to AT&T, etc. ("assets include unlimited license to MS-DOS"), MICROS~1 took the stance that that would not apply to anything but Verion 1. In an uncharacteristically reasonable move, MICROS~1 bought SCP, keeping it off the market without a battle.) > > - The one-button mouse. > Err, some of us don't see that as an 'improvement'... :-) some point to "cognitive delay" some point to simpler instructions in documentation I loved the Logitech 3 button mouse. For a while, I even velcro'ed the PCJr keyboard on top of its mouse! > > If you sit someone who knows how to use a Mac in front of a circa-1979 > > Xerox Alto, they'll be pretty mystified. "Hello, computer" "Use the mouse." "Hello, computer" (into mouse) > Yeah, but that's in good part because the Alto user interface is such a dog's > breakfast - Draw is nothing like Bravo is nothing like etc, etc. But, like I > said, that was inevitable, given the process that produced the Alto. early attempt/prototype/proof of concept V later evolved/refined product I only played with a Lisa once. My cousin, David Ungar, was working on Smalltalk, and had a pre-release one in his office in Evans Hall. I bet him that they could not find ANY of their floppies that did not yet have a thumbprint on the media. When he put on gloves to open a fresh box, did that count? I tried to make an extra floppy for it, but 300 Oersted ("360K") did not work. "'Maserati of the mind'? Yeah. Fantastic toy! I want one! But way too expensive for me, and unusable for my rush-hour commute with no place to put a sack of groceries or a bunch of computers." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Mar 15 13:51:07 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 18:51:07 +0000 Subject: AC magnetic field strengths In-Reply-To: <92bfdf07-06d2-bb4d-771b-1810637c9217@bitsavers.org> References: <92bfdf07-06d2-bb4d-771b-1810637c9217@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mar 15, 2017, at 12:01 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I bought an AlphaLabs GM-2 Gaussmeter for another project, and measured the AC magnetic > field strength touching these devices yesterday, since I really didn't have any idea beyond > order of magnitude what they might be > > Handheld tape head demagnetizer: 40 Gauss > GC Elec 9317 CRT degausing coil: 70 Gauss > Audiolab TD-3 desktop bulk eraser: 1000 Gauss > Inmac 7180 or > RS 44-233A handheld bulk tape erasers: 2000 Gauss > > > > also the DC field of a 1/4" button super magnet like on the > backs of clip on badges is about 3000 Gauss More context available at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(magnetic_field) ranging from 50 femtoGauss (what the Gravity Probe B SQUID magnetometers measured with several days? averaging) to 100 MegaGauss (strongest pulsed field ever obtained at Sandia Labs). Interestingly that page claims 12.5 kGauss for a "neodymium?iron?boron (Nd2 Fe14 B) rare earth magnet? (subscripts on the atomic symbols got converted to plain text during cut-n-paste). Guess the badges have weaker versions? Interesting to compare earth field and the badge fastener field to practical exposure limit for pacemakers - only about a factor of 10 at the poles - and to loudspeaker coils, which are 5000 times above the recommended pacemaker limit. Now I know why people with pacemakers don?t like rock music (and name tags)! :-) - Mark From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 15 14:05:28 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 12:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Liam Proven wrote: >> Yeah, god forbid you confuse the poor user with more than one button. > > Jeez, Gene, can't you find some _new_ nonsense? > Why? The old nonsense still works! I gotta bring it out now and again to keep the rust off and the joints moving freely. :) > This one is quantifiable and measurable. More buttons means more > cognitive delay. For years and decades. It has been _proved_ slower. > Yes we're all used to it now, but you just have not read the HCI > research if you are still reciting this tired stale old B S. ITYM, "more buttons confuse those with cognitive delay". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Mar 15 14:10:08 2017 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 15:10:08 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Fred Cisin via cctalk [170315 14:48]: [..SNIP..] > > Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux? [..SNIP..] I'd argue that the OS used by Android *is* Linux (with some small modifications.) Of course the user interface and lots of other functions is a huge amount of code running in user space. Todd From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 15 14:13:39 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 12:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux? > I'm pretty sure Android runs on top of Linux. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Mar 15 14:15:26 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:15:26 -0600 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 1:13 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux? >> > I'm pretty sure Android runs on top of Linux. Android runs a hacked BSD libc on top of a linux kernel. Warner From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 15 14:23:59 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 12:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: >>> Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux? > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 1:13 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> I'm pretty sure Android runs on top of Linux. On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Android runs a hacked BSD libc on top of a linux kernel. Thank you very much for confirming that -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 09:45:10 2017 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 07:45:10 -0700 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: References: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315081109.GM15948@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Adds a whole new dimension to the term "memory leak". Marc On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 6:32 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I can't imagine why it needed to be reworked. That is only what I was > told. I always thought it was kind of funny. > > The Olivetti used a piece of wire for the delay line. I forget what the > Dielh Combitron used but I know it used a two delay lines. One was for > registers and the other was for lookup tables that loaded at turn on time > from a metal tape ( as I recall ). > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Pontus Pihlgren > via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 1:11:10 AM > To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Univac I memory tank > > On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 05:41:57PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Dwight Kelvey > > > > > I need on of those. > > > > I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it > work, of > > course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left > in > > the world? > > CHM has one: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X976.89 > > It used to be on display, perhaps it still is. > > /P > From hachti at hachti.de Wed Mar 15 10:58:32 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 16:58:32 +0100 Subject: Old Honeywell uPAC parts looking for a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's sad :-( I did not even have the opportunity to check if they would have helped me to get my DDP-516 back to life - I am missing two ICs. Who took them? Kind regards Philipp Am 13.03.2017 um 04:39 schrieb Todd Pisek via cctech: > The uPAC modules have been claimed. > From tingox at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 12:31:17 2017 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 18:31:17 +0100 Subject: Ardent Titan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Randy Dawson via cctech wrote: > > Kubota (who purchased Stardent) put the rendering software, Dore' in the public domain. I have built it here under FreeBSD on a PC; it was in the ports system for a while, and without to much messing with, > I got the demos running (FLAG, a flag blowing in the wind, with controls for wind speed and direction, controlled by the knob box) are still impressive. Interesting. Is the source for Dore still available? I did a quick search with Google, but didn't find anything. Have a nice day. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 15 13:19:41 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 18:19:41 +0000 Subject: Ardent Titan In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Torfinn, It was in FreeBSD ports, in graphics but they removed it (why?). I saved it, its pretty extensive, including manuals. Any suggestions where to put it up (I have microsoft onedrive) Does Al at bitsavers want it? Randy ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctech Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 10:31 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Ardent Titan Hello, On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Randy Dawson via cctech wrote: > > Kubota (who purchased Stardent) put the rendering software, Dore' in the public domain. I have built it here under FreeBSD on a PC; it was in the ports system for a while, and without to much messing with, > I got the demos running (FLAG, a flag blowing in the wind, with controls for wind speed and direction, controlled by the knob box) are still impressive. Interesting. Is the source for Dore still available? I did a quick search with Google, but didn't find anything. Have a nice day. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From jan at janadelsbach.com Wed Mar 15 13:38:47 2017 From: jan at janadelsbach.com (Jan Adelsbach) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 19:38:47 +0100 Subject: Ardent Titan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, On 03/15/2017 06:31 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctech wrote: > Hello, > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Randy Dawson via cctech > wrote: >> >> Kubota (who purchased Stardent) put the rendering software, Dore' in the public domain. I have built it here under FreeBSD on a PC; it was in the ports system for a while, and without to much messing with, >> I got the demos running (FLAG, a flag blowing in the wind, with controls for wind speed and direction, controlled by the knob box) are still impressive. > > Interesting. Is the source for Dore still available? I did a quick > search with Google, but didn't find anything. > > Have a nice day. > had a search earlier today for it as well, here you go: https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/packages/development/graphics/Dore/ - Jan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 15 14:32:48 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 12:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <58C977A9.9040804@cimmeri.com> References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <58C977A9.9040804@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: >> This one is quantifiable and measurable. More buttons means more >> cognitive delay. On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, js--- via cctalk wrote: > Maybe cognitive delay is a good thing. Separates the wheat from the chaff. hmmm. > Eg. "God forbid" there be automobiles with only one button (start). They are headed in that direction. Driverless cars are fine. So long as there is a licensed driver with hands on the wheel and feet on the pedals. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 15 15:40:03 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:40:03 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <184cff66-68e2-d97a-3abb-1ffedcfd8b1a@sydex.com> On 03/15/2017 12:10 PM, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote: > * Fred Cisin via cctalk [170315 14:48]: > [..SNIP..] >> >> Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux? > > [..SNIP..] > > I'd argue that the OS used by Android *is* Linux (with some small > modifications.) > > Of course the user interface and lots of other functions is a huge > amount of code running in user space. The whole idea of an "operating system" seems to have morphed into the notion of a user interface. To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user interface build on a single operating system. I recall that back in the days of Windows 95, MS defended it as an "operating system" (re: the default inclusion of MSIE in the same), rather than a user interface built on top of MSDOS. I once had a fellow proclaim that his group had constructed an entire operating system in COBOL. When I asked him about his file management, he said that it was handled by the kernel and not the operating system. One thing you can depend upon in this field is the inconstancy of definitions. I always wondered about the wisdom of single-sourcing storage devices such as the Next optical drive, the Twiggy or the SuperDrive of the early Macs. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 15 15:42:25 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Warner Losh wrote: > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 1:13 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux? >>> >> I'm pretty sure Android runs on top of Linux. > > Android runs a hacked BSD libc on top of a linux kernel. Thus "on top of Linux". g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 15 15:52:28 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:52:28 -0700 Subject: Mac HFS file recovery; was: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Folks, I was asked to recover files from an old Apple Hard Disk 20 drive (Miniscribe 20MB SCSI). I've been able to read all but two widely-spaced sectors, but no Mac HFS file recovery tool that I've been able to find works. Anyone want to take a crack at it before I resort to extracting strings from the raw drive? The funny thing is that I can see the data, but nothing seems to be able to recover it. The zipped-up dd image is here: https://expirebox.com/download/d40c6...cba107b8b.html Thanks, Chuck From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Mar 15 15:18:08 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 15:18:08 -0500 Subject: Ardent Titan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170315201808.GA26784@lonesome.com> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 06:19:41PM +0000, Randy Dawson via cctech wrote: > It was in FreeBSD ports, in graphics but they removed it (why?). portsjail% grep dore MOVED graphics/dore||2011-05-02|Has expired: Upstream disappeared and distfile is no longer available So, someone would have to take on the work of making a "real" upstream and then resubmit the port. (hint: FreeBSD requires a non-null maintainer for new ports :-) ) mcl From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Mar 15 16:16:46 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 14:16:46 -0700 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 15, 2017, at 10:40 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > The Star introduced the concept of icons representing files (and other > things) in 1981. According to ?Inventing the Lisa User Interface,? Apple put emphasis on icons in the Lisa interface in its Marketing Requirements Document in 1979. They were also considering desktop icons for Lisa in 1980, and initially rejected them. They were led back to the model by the results of user testing as well as what they read about IBM?s PICTUREWORLD system (paper published in 1980). Which isn?t to say they didn?t see predecessors of the stuff that shipped with Xerox Star. But there was a lot of contemporaneous work after Apple?s 1979 PARC visits. > Smalltalk invented scrollbars (they were clumsier than > Apple's though) in the mid 70s. Right. The typical desktop scroll bar as thought of today, however, like typical desktop windows and menus, are largely an Apple refinement if not invention. > Also, don't forget that the Mac was designed by a number of ex-PARC > researchers. It may have been invented at Apple, but it was strongly > influenced by what went on at PARC. There were only a relative handful of ex-PARC folks involved in Macintosh itself, more were involved in Lisa from what I gather. -- Chris From ams at gnu.org Wed Mar 15 16:23:05 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:23:05 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: (message from Liam Proven via cctalk on Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:35:10 +0100) References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Icons for files, the "OK" and "Cancel" buttons, scroll bars, all kinds of utterly basic stuff were invented at Apple. Well, other than that it wasn't. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Mar 15 16:17:20 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 21:17:20 +0000 (WET) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <184cff66-68e2-d97a-3abb-1ffedcfd8b1a@sydex.com> References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> > > The whole idea of an "operating system" seems to have morphed into the > notion of a user interface. > > To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user > interface build on a single operating system. > Has anybody else noticed that the meaning of "portable code" seems to have morphed into "can be built on two or three different flavours of Linux"? > > One thing you can depend upon in this field is the inconstancy of > definitions. > Agreed. Regards, Peter Coghlan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 15 16:28:40 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 14:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <184cff66-68e2-d97a-3abb-1ffedcfd8b1a@sydex.com> References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <184cff66-68e2-d97a-3abb-1ffedcfd8b1a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The whole idea of an "operating system" seems to have morphed into the > notion of a user interface. > To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user > interface build on a single operating system. > I recall that back in the days of Windows 95, MS defended it as an > "operating system" (re: the default inclusion of MSIE in the same), > rather than a user interface built on top of MSDOS. > I once had a fellow proclaim that his group had constructed an entire > operating system in COBOL. When I asked him about his file management, > he said that it was handled by the kernel and not the operating system. I used to teach a beginning microcomputer operating system class. The administration wanted it to be remedial job training for the digital sweatshop, and never go past what commands do you do to format a disk, etc., and called for discontinuing the class once Windoze95 came out. I tried, instead, to create an understanding of what an OS was, as well as how to use it, and how to deal with problems. I dealt with sector editing repair of directories, etc. (In creatively handling user interface problems, I had a test question of: "You have a PC-DOS 3.30 PS/2 with a damaged keyboard (Pepsi Syndrome). There are other computers handy, but no other keyboards with the right connector. The 'A', 'C', and 'D' keys won't work! List some ways that you can copy files from the hard disk onto floppies") Among the answers that I would accept were: using and the numeric pad, creating a batch file on another computer, even "REN X?OPY.EXE XBOPY.EXE". One fellow included enough detail about cleaning key contacts and/or splicing the keyboard cable onto another one that I accepted that. I even accepted a moderately detailed description of how to remove the hard disk and connect it as temporary second HDD on another computer. (definitely a question of come up with a way, not "single right answer") I started the internals discussions with "DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres", and wrote on the board: BIOS(usually ROM)/BDOS/CCP (Console Command Processor) ROM&IO.SYS/MSDOS.SYS/COMMAND.COM ROM&IBMBIO.COM/IBMDOS.COM/COMMAND.COM hardware interface/file management/user interface We then spent some time on what each of those parts was. It doesn't HAVE TO be three parts, but those are a reasonable division. I loved how PC-DOS 1.00 documentation included partial description of what was needed to write a replacement command processor! > One thing you can depend upon in this field is the inconstancy of > definitions. Sometimes I think that it is NIH ("Not Invented Here"), but it seems as though a lot of people invent new names for the same things. block/cluster/granule, etc. > I always wondered about the wisdom of single-sourcing storage devices > such as the Next optical drive, the Twiggy or the SuperDrive of the > early Macs. I was surprised that Jobs didn't make the Lisa floppy 5.0 or 5.5 inches, and used a relatively standard drive for the Mac. I would have thought that he would want people to buy even their media from Apple. For people who think that that is absurd, remember that there have been more than one machine that was capable of formatting it's own diskettes, but was not supplied with a FORMAT program. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ams at gnu.org Wed Mar 15 16:34:19 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:34:19 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: (message from Chris Hanson via cctalk on Wed, 15 Mar 2017 14:16:46 -0700) References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Smalltalk invented scrollbars (they were clumsier than > Apple's though) in the mid 70s. Right. The typical desktop scroll bar as thought of today, however, like typical desktop windows and menus, are largely an Apple refinement if not invention. Those where already available on the Xerox Star. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Mar 15 17:17:25 2017 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 18:17:25 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <184cff66-68e2-d97a-3abb-1ffedcfd8b1a@sydex.com> References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <184cff66-68e2-d97a-3abb-1ffedcfd8b1a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51C57DDA4BA54F71985AF3177FB467DB@TeoPC> Superdrives (floppy drives) are starting to be a problem on 68k Mac systems because they fail (motors die, heads get ripped off, etc). The later ones with the black flap (cost reduced) found on PPC systems seem to last. Same problems with the IBM PS/2 floppy drives. Twiggy drives seemed to be junk even new, which is why they changed the model to use the Sony 3.5" drives. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 4:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Pair of Twiggys I always wondered about the wisdom of single-sourcing storage devices such as the Next optical drive, the Twiggy or the SuperDrive of the early Macs. --Chuck --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Mar 15 17:55:39 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 18:55:39 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-03-15 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> The whole idea of an "operating system" seems to have morphed into the >> notion of a user interface. >> >> To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user >> interface build on a single operating system. >> > > Has anybody else noticed that the meaning of "portable code" seems to have > morphed into "can be built on two or three different flavours of Linux"? 1983. All the world's a VAX. 1993. No sorry, all the world's a SPARC. 2013. Oops, no, all the world's an x86. --T > >> >> One thing you can depend upon in this field is the inconstancy of >> definitions. >> > > Agreed. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan > From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Mar 15 18:02:07 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:02:07 -0600 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2017-03-15 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>> The whole idea of an "operating system" seems to have morphed into the >>> notion of a user interface. >>> >>> To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user >>> interface build on a single operating system. >>> >> >> Has anybody else noticed that the meaning of "portable code" seems to have >> morphed into "can be built on two or three different flavours of Linux"? > > > 1983. All the world's a VAX. Running BSD > 1993. No sorry, all the world's a SPARC. Running Solaris > 2013. Oops, no, all the world's an x86. Running Linux I'm waiting for the rise of cell phones to make it 202x All the world's an ARM running Android Warner > --T > > >> >>> >>> One thing you can depend upon in this field is the inconstancy of >>> definitions. >>> >> >> Agreed. >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan >> > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 15 18:27:17 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:27:17 -0600 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <88bf5842-2049-4395-004a-6cccf32c31a9@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/15/2017 5:02 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk > wrote: >> On 2017-03-15 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> The whole idea of an "operating system" seems to have morphed into the >>>> notion of a user interface. >>>> >>>> To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user >>>> interface build on a single operating system. >>>> >>> >>> Has anybody else noticed that the meaning of "portable code" seems to have >>> morphed into "can be built on two or three different flavours of Linux"? >> >> >> 1983. All the world's a VAX. > > Running BSD > >> 1993. No sorry, all the world's a SPARC. > > Running Solaris > >> 2013. Oops, no, all the world's an x86. > > Running Linux > > I'm waiting for the rise of cell phones to make it > > 202x All the world's an ARM running Android > > Warner Raspberry Pi seems to be the TREND with embedded things. I bring you THE PDP 8/I KIT. 1 PI with Front Panel. http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence And for you OLD PEOPLE you GET MEL's Computer. http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence No Vacuum tubes have been harmed in this FPGA replica of the LPG-30 - Desk Optional. well 6502 people, this is your DAY. MOnSter Cpu ... discreet transistors. http://monster6502.com/ Ben. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Mar 15 19:15:19 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 20:15:19 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2017-03-15 7:02 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk > wrote: >> On 2017-03-15 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> The whole idea of an "operating system" seems to have morphed into the >>>> notion of a user interface. >>>> >>>> To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user >>>> interface build on a single operating system. >>>> >>> >>> Has anybody else noticed that the meaning of "portable code" seems to have >>> morphed into "can be built on two or three different flavours of Linux"? >> >> >> 1983. All the world's a VAX. > > Running BSD > >> 1993. No sorry, all the world's a SPARC. > > Running Solaris Yeah, or SunOS 4 was the reference platform for a while. > >> 2013. Oops, no, all the world's an x86. > > Running Linux Yep. --T > > I'm waiting for the rise of cell phones to make it > > 202x All the world's an ARM running Android > > Warner > >> --T >> >> >>> >>>> >>>> One thing you can depend upon in this field is the inconstancy of >>>> definitions. >>>> >>> >>> Agreed. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Peter Coghlan >>> >> > From hachti at hachti.de Wed Mar 15 19:30:04 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 01:30:04 +0100 Subject: DEC frontpanel switch replica! Message-ID: Hi folks, this might be quite interesting for the folks that miss front panel switch handles! As some of you might know I'm currently working (a bit) on a new batch of Omnibus USB boards. And I have announced that there will be a kind of handle for the boards this time... I went to my neighbour and showed him some bits and pieces. He has a nice little workshop for concrete artwork (https://www.fritzundfranz.com/) and spent a lot of time into perfecting his moulding skills. I gave him a pdp8/e yellow switch handle with broken axle (usual problem) to try what can be done. Today I came home and he gave me the piece saying that he was unable to replicate it. I took it (a bit frustrated) and stated that he has somehow ruined the surface... Haha! It was the replica! He told me that this was a first "fast" shot including a "rough" approximation of the colour. I was stunned! Here you can see pictures. Even the defects of the original have been replicated. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sih4qrrw4o3zgbh/AACf7kY7MbGDLt5FYJgfI4kDa?dl=0 He told me that it was a bit difficult to get the holes at the side right. I think that it would be no problem if they'd be more shallow or even gone. * His material is less translucent than the original. Won't probably change. So a perfectionist could spot the difference. * He states that he can hit colors even better! (Think of the special colors!!!) * The axle stubs would be omitted and made of steel (something I already plan for repair of that weakest point) * He is able to produce flawless finish (remember: it's a raw prototype!) This is not my business. I told him that I'd ask around if there would be serious interest. He is not in vintage computing and does not work for free. So one piece would probably cost around 5-15 EUR each, depending on demand, color etc. Please give some feedback! Philipp :-) From steven at malikoff.com Wed Mar 15 21:19:08 2017 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:19:08 +1000 Subject: DEC frontpanel switch replica! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Hi folks, > > this might be quite interesting for the folks that miss front panel > switch handles! > > As some of you might know I'm currently working (a bit) on a new batch > of Omnibus USB boards. And I have announced that there will be a kind of > handle for the boards this time... I went to my neighbour and showed him > some bits and pieces. He has a nice little workshop for concrete artwork > (https://www.fritzundfranz.com/) and spent a lot of time into perfecting > his moulding skills. > I gave him a pdp8/e yellow switch handle with broken axle (usual > problem) to try what can be done. > Today I came home and he gave me the piece saying that he was unable to > replicate it. I took it (a bit frustrated) and stated that he has > somehow ruined the surface... Haha! It was the replica! > He told me that this was a first "fast" shot including a "rough" > approximation of the colour. > > I was stunned! > > Here you can see pictures. Even the defects of the original have been > replicated. > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sih4qrrw4o3zgbh/AACf7kY7MbGDLt5FYJgfI4kDa?dl=0 > > He told me that it was a bit difficult to get the holes at the side > right. I think that it would be no problem if they'd be more shallow or > even gone. > > * His material is less translucent than the original. Won't probably > change. So a perfectionist could spot the difference. > > * He states that he can hit colors even better! (Think of the special > colors!!!) > > * The axle stubs would be omitted and made of steel (something I already > plan for repair of that weakest point) > > * He is able to produce flawless finish (remember: it's a raw prototype!) > > This is not my business. I told him that I'd ask around if there would > be serious interest. He is not in vintage computing and does not work > for free. So one piece would probably cost around 5-15 EUR each, > depending on demand, color etc. > > > Please give some feedback! > > > Philipp :-) > For a prototype that looks very nice indeed! I agree that for this level of molding precision the pivot axle would be better if done as a separate piece and press fitted. Steel would be fine, brass rod would also be ok and softer to machine. A small jig could be made to cross-drill the hole accurately. Same for the side holes just using the depression as the centre point. Your neighbour has done an excellent job there, well done. He ought to run off a few different DEC paddle switch designs and flog them on eBay :) Steve. From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 21:26:52 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 21:26:52 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> <377cb432-1749-94e3-3e11-714e9d8e923a@dunnington.plus.com> <56e6dbb3-d8ec-3226-941b-2d28a429affb@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I didn't make any intentional changes to my filters (do I even have any?) so I can't say that's the cause. But about 75% of my cctalk mails now show up as "read".. and it's super-annoying. Anyone know how to correct it? On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 4:44 AM, drlegendre . via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I was wondering why 99% of my cctalk shows up as "read mail".. =/ > > > > What a PITA, I can't tell what I have read from what I have not read - is > > this part of the 'new' system? > > > > You mean in Gmail? I don't have that problem with mine. Do you perhaps have > a filter that automatically marks them read, which wasn't being run before? > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From hachti at hachti.de Wed Mar 15 21:27:21 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 03:27:21 +0100 Subject: DEC frontpanel switch replica! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <207bc2bc-1e76-e90d-af8e-ab8a01c75e84@hachti.de> On 16.03.2017 03:19, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > For a prototype that looks very nice indeed! Yess :-) > I agree that for this level of molding precision the pivot axle would be better > if done as a separate piece and press fitted. Yes. Even if it is moulded perfectly - the axle will still be THE point of failure. So the replica will be better than the original. BTW I did not manage to break the replica... > Steel would be fine, brass rod would > also be ok and softer to machine. We'll see. > A small jig could be made to cross-drill the > hole accurately. I already planned that as a repair measure. > Same for the side holes just using the depression as the centre > point. Side holes? What for? We'll make them without side holes I think. They have no function and are nearly invisible. > Your neighbour has done an excellent job there, well done. He ought to run off a few > different DEC paddle switch designs and flog them on eBay :) Still have to get him interested enough :-) If there's enough demand, I'll probably manage the distribution/shipping/ordering. I think that he can make everything glossy. For matte finish, we'd need a perfect original or see if we can somehow prepare the mould. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 21:50:25 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 22:50:25 -0400 Subject: DEC frontpanel switch replica! In-Reply-To: <207bc2bc-1e76-e90d-af8e-ab8a01c75e84@hachti.de> References: <207bc2bc-1e76-e90d-af8e-ab8a01c75e84@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:27 PM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > On 16.03.2017 03:19, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> >> For a prototype that looks very nice indeed! They do indeed. >> Same for the side holes just using the depression as the centre >> point. > > Side holes? What for? We'll make them without side holes I think. They have > no function and are nearly invisible. They aren't structurally functional and they aren't visible, *but* they have a purpose... when making a large object, the side holes ensure that the deepest point of the object is shallower than if the hole weren't there. This accomplishes two things - the center of the part cools and hardens faster, plus there's less overall plastic so the shrinkage factor as it cools is less likely to put a depression/flaw where it might be visible. Negative space still has a function. It's a common thing with injection-molded plastics to consider wall thickness and body thickness. It's not about "saving a few cents in plastic", but it is about less effort to get faithful parts. > If there's enough demand, I'll probably manage the > distribution/shipping/ordering. Cool. I don't know if folks would want to get 20-30 toggles at 15 Eur, but closer to 5 Eur is in striking range What is the material, BTW? > I think that he can make everything glossy. For matte finish, we'd need a > perfect original or see if we can somehow prepare the mould. My memory of all the toggles I've handled (no pun intended) is that they have a glossy finish, not a matte finish. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 15 21:56:36 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 20:56:36 -0600 Subject: DEC frontpanel switch replica! In-Reply-To: References: <207bc2bc-1e76-e90d-af8e-ab8a01c75e84@hachti.de> Message-ID: <80655b4c-bd21-1ef5-1c93-c494a938f1e1@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/15/2017 8:50 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > >> I think that he can make everything glossy. For matte finish, we'd need a >> perfect original or see if we can somehow prepare the mould. > > My memory of all the toggles I've handled (no pun intended) is that > they have a glossy finish, not a matte finish. Nice and shinny from all that toggling? > -ethan > I was just thinking. Can one get new switches too? Some swiches might be a little worn, and need to be replaced. Ben. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 15 22:29:39 2017 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 03:29:39 +0000 Subject: DEC frontpanel switch replica! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi They look pretty good to me. How's it done. The originals were injection molded and of course needed a mold. I'll be at the Munich VCF at the end of April. Rod Smallwood On 16/03/2017 00:30, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > this might be quite interesting for the folks that miss front panel > switch handles! > > As some of you might know I'm currently working (a bit) on a new batch > of Omnibus USB boards. And I have announced that there will be a kind > of handle for the boards this time... I went to my neighbour and > showed him some bits and pieces. He has a nice little workshop for > concrete artwork (https://www.fritzundfranz.com/) and spent a lot of > time into perfecting his moulding skills. > I gave him a pdp8/e yellow switch handle with broken axle (usual > problem) to try what can be done. > Today I came home and he gave me the piece saying that he was unable > to replicate it. I took it (a bit frustrated) and stated that he has > somehow ruined the surface... Haha! It was the replica! > He told me that this was a first "fast" shot including a "rough" > approximation of the colour. > > I was stunned! > > Here you can see pictures. Even the defects of the original have been > replicated. > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sih4qrrw4o3zgbh/AACf7kY7MbGDLt5FYJgfI4kDa?dl=0 > > He told me that it was a bit difficult to get the holes at the side > right. I think that it would be no problem if they'd be more shallow > or even gone. > > * His material is less translucent than the original. Won't probably > change. So a perfectionist could spot the difference. > > * He states that he can hit colors even better! (Think of the special > colors!!!) > > * The axle stubs would be omitted and made of steel (something I > already plan for repair of that weakest point) > > * He is able to produce flawless finish (remember: it's a raw prototype!) > > This is not my business. I told him that I'd ask around if there would > be serious interest. He is not in vintage computing and does not work > for free. So one piece would probably cost around 5-15 EUR each, > depending on demand, color etc. > > > Please give some feedback! > > > Philipp :-) -- There is no wrong or right Nor black and white. Just darknessand light From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Mar 15 22:47:01 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 23:47:01 -0400 Subject: DEC frontpanel switch replica! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2017-03-15 8:30 PM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > this might be quite interesting for the folks that miss front panel > switch handles! > > As some of you might know I'm currently working (a bit) on a new batch > of Omnibus USB boards. And I have announced that there will be a kind of > handle for the boards this time... I went to my neighbour and showed him > some bits and pieces. He has a nice little workshop for concrete artwork > (https://www.fritzundfranz.com/) and spent a lot of time into perfecting > his moulding skills. > I gave him a pdp8/e yellow switch handle with broken axle (usual > problem) to try what can be done. > Today I came home and he gave me the piece saying that he was unable to > replicate it. I took it (a bit frustrated) and stated that he has > somehow ruined the surface... Haha! It was the replica! > He told me that this was a first "fast" shot including a "rough" > approximation of the colour. > > I was stunned! > > Here you can see pictures. Even the defects of the original have been > replicated. > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sih4qrrw4o3zgbh/AACf7kY7MbGDLt5FYJgfI4kDa?dl=0 > ... > > Please give some feedback! Alright, I will! While obviously a first cut, this is amazing, you and your neighbour should be complimented. This kind of creativity and hard work really helps retrocomputing restorers. Kudos to you both. --Toby > > > Philipp :-) > From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 23:22:14 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 22:22:14 -0600 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <184cff66-68e2-d97a-3abb-1ffedcfd8b1a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mar 15, 2017 3:28 PM, "Fred Cisin via cctalk" wrote: > I was surprised that Jobs didn't make the Lisa floppy 5.0 or 5.5 inches, I assume that Apple wanted to get at least a small benefit of economy of scale from media manufacturers not having to retool for a different size, even though they had to use a higher coercivity coating and a different punch for the jacket. > and used a relatively standard drive for the Mac. The Mac used a Twiggy drive (AKA FileWare, AKA Apple 871 drive) until very late in development. Twiggy drives were intended for use on the Apple II and III as well, though they didn't go into production. The decision to use Sony 3.5" drives was a response to the huge problems Apple had with the Twiggy. > I would have thought that he would want people to buy even their media from Apple. Other vendors sold Twiggy media under the FileWare trademark, presumably under license. I have no idea whether a per-disk royalty was involved. I have unopened boxes of Verbatim FileWare diskettes. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Mar 15 23:57:22 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 00:57:22 -0400 Subject: I hate the new mail system References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5c8dc30b-f205-d1fe-7bdc-5d906b5c9561@dunnington.plus.com> <817e28b4-215f-883f-01ed-92f2988cf7bf@dunnington.plus.com> <377cb432-1749-94e3-3e11-714e9d8e923a@dunnington.plus.com> <56e6dbb3-d8ec-3226-941b-2d28a429affb@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I don't hate it, but it sure is inconvenient: Looks like I get messages with three different "TO" addresses: cctalk at classiccmp.org and General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; No problem with those two; easy to pick out cctalk messages. But ;General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts is a PITA since of course it sorts etc. by the Sender instead of a CCTALK ID. Why the difference? m From spedraja at ono.com Thu Mar 16 02:30:56 2017 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:30:56 +0100 Subject: DEC frontpanel switch replica! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well... I'm needing some of them for my PDP8/E. So I think this is a good idea. Regards Sergio 2017-03-16 1:30 GMT+01:00 Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk : > Hi folks, > > this might be quite interesting for the folks that miss front panel switch > handles! > > As some of you might know I'm currently working (a bit) on a new batch of > Omnibus USB boards. And I have announced that there will be a kind of handle > for the boards this time... I went to my neighbour and showed him some bits > and pieces. He has a nice little workshop for concrete artwork > (https://www.fritzundfranz.com/) and spent a lot of time into perfecting his > moulding skills. > I gave him a pdp8/e yellow switch handle with broken axle (usual problem) to > try what can be done. > Today I came home and he gave me the piece saying that he was unable to > replicate it. I took it (a bit frustrated) and stated that he has somehow > ruined the surface... Haha! It was the replica! > He told me that this was a first "fast" shot including a "rough" > approximation of the colour. > > I was stunned! > > Here you can see pictures. Even the defects of the original have been > replicated. > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sih4qrrw4o3zgbh/AACf7kY7MbGDLt5FYJgfI4kDa?dl=0 > > He told me that it was a bit difficult to get the holes at the side right. I > think that it would be no problem if they'd be more shallow or even gone. > > * His material is less translucent than the original. Won't probably change. > So a perfectionist could spot the difference. > > * He states that he can hit colors even better! (Think of the special > colors!!!) > > * The axle stubs would be omitted and made of steel (something I already > plan for repair of that weakest point) > > * He is able to produce flawless finish (remember: it's a raw prototype!) > > This is not my business. I told him that I'd ask around if there would be > serious interest. He is not in vintage computing and does not work for free. > So one piece would probably cost around 5-15 EUR each, depending on demand, > color etc. > > > Please give some feedback! > > > Philipp :-) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 16 04:22:27 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:22:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: References: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <20170315081109.GM15948@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, dwight wrote: > The Olivetti used a piece of wire for the delay line. I forget what the > Dielh Combitron used but I know it used a two delay lines. One was for > registers and the other was for lookup tables that loaded at turn on > time from a metal tape ( as I recall ). I can tell you exactly what the Diehl Combitron does; I have a running bachelor thesis for a student who is developing an emulator and assembler for that machine, and we have also disassembled (but not yet understood) the firmware (contained on the metal tape) of the machine. In fact, it uses two magnetostrictive delay lines, one is called the R delay line containing 219 bits plus one external in a flip-flop. The other is called the M delay line with a total of 10889+1 bits. The main clock of the machine is 1 MHz thus a bit time (called P) is 1 ?s. The R line holds four words ? 55 bits, one in the I phase P bits time, one in the I phase /P bits time, one in the /I phase P bits time and one in the /I phase /P bits time. The instructions are always fetched from the I phase /P bits and executed in the /I phase. The M line holds a total of 99 P words and 99 /P words. The phase between P and /P changes every M cycle During the loading phase (e.g. at power on or after a 'e1' order) the R line is filled with the contents coming from tape and then executed. Usually the code just transfers the other three words of the R line somewhere into the M line and restarts the loading phase for the next block. After loading the last block a fill instruction "jumps" to the entry point of the firmware. The fill instruction transfers four words from the M line to the R line. Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Mar 16 05:09:06 2017 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:09:06 +0000 Subject: DEC frontpanel switch replica! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40a14cb0-1c4d-5338-0f3a-804407f1b98a@btinternet.com> On 16/03/2017 07:30, SPC via cctalk wrote: > Well... I'm needing some of them for my PDP8/E. So I think this is a good idea. > > Regards > Sergio > > 2017-03-16 1:30 GMT+01:00 Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk : >> Hi folks, >> >> this might be quite interesting for the folks that miss front panel switch >> handles! >> >> As some of you might know I'm currently working (a bit) on a new batch of >> Omnibus USB boards. And I have announced that there will be a kind of handle >> for the boards this time... I went to my neighbour and showed him some bits >> and pieces. He has a nice little workshop for concrete artwork >> (https://www.fritzundfranz.com/) and spent a lot of time into perfecting his >> moulding skills. >> I gave him a pdp8/e yellow switch handle with broken axle (usual problem) to >> try what can be done. >> Today I came home and he gave me the piece saying that he was unable to >> replicate it. I took it (a bit frustrated) and stated that he has somehow >> ruined the surface... Haha! It was the replica! >> He told me that this was a first "fast" shot including a "rough" >> approximation of the colour. >> >> I was stunned! >> >> Here you can see pictures. Even the defects of the original have been >> replicated. >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sih4qrrw4o3zgbh/AACf7kY7MbGDLt5FYJgfI4kDa?dl=0 >> >> He told me that it was a bit difficult to get the holes at the side right. I >> think that it would be no problem if they'd be more shallow or even gone. >> >> * His material is less translucent than the original. Won't probably change. >> So a perfectionist could spot the difference. >> >> * He states that he can hit colors even better! (Think of the special >> colors!!!) >> >> * The axle stubs would be omitted and made of steel (something I already >> plan for repair of that weakest point) >> >> * He is able to produce flawless finish (remember: it's a raw prototype!) >> >> This is not my business. I told him that I'd ask around if there would be >> serious interest. He is not in vintage computing and does not work for free. >> So one piece would probably cost around 5-15 EUR each, depending on demand, >> color etc. >> >> >> Please give some feedback! >> >> >> Philipp :-) Ok having had a chance to think. Here are a few comments. 1. Rather than single items a full set to suit say a PDP-8/e might be an idea. 2. This would prevent color mismatches where replaced. 3. Any chance of say 8/i rocker switches. 4. Whats the production method? 5. Whats the production rate? 6. Batch to batch color matching? Rod Smallwood -- There is no wrong or right Nor black and white. Just darkness and light From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 16 05:03:54 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:03:54 +0000 Subject: DEC frontpanel switch replica! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77c73c9c-b259-90c5-6239-e7e6a8568d44@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/03/2017 00:30, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > I have announced that there will be a kind of > handle for the boards this time... I went to my neighbour and showed him > some bits and pieces. He has a nice little workshop for concrete artwork > (https://www.fritzundfranz.com/) and spent a lot of time into perfecting > his moulding skills. > I gave him a pdp8/e yellow switch handle with broken axle (usual > problem) to try what can be done. > Here you can see pictures. Even the defects of the original have been > replicated. > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sih4qrrw4o3zgbh/AACf7kY7MbGDLt5FYJgfI4kDa?dl=0 These are wonderful. At ?5 - ?15 I'm sure I could find a need for a few, especially with a metal axle instead of the plastic stubs. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Thu Mar 16 08:26:46 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:26:46 +0100 Subject: Looking for an Intel SRM Message-ID: Here?s a long shot, about as long as they get. I received an Intel iPSC/860 supercomputer, but it?s lacking the Intel SRM (System Resource Manager), without which the system is a boat anchor. The SRM is an Intel 386 desktop machine, with a SYP301 motherboard and a plugin card to connect it to the iPSC/860. There?s a cable coming from the iPSC with a 25-pin D connector, which I believe is the connection to the SRM. It?s not a regular serial port, but a bidirectional 2.6MByte per second connection. The interface card likely uses a bunch of Xilinx chips (the interface cards on the iPSC node boards do). I have not been able to find a picture of what the box looks like on the outside, so I have no idea. So, I?m looking for one of these, preferably one the owner would be willing to part with :-) Camiel From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Mar 16 10:28:12 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > I'm waiting for the rise of cell phones to make it > > 202x All the world's an ARM running Android > ....on Linux. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Mar 16 11:49:56 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:49:56 -0600 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 9:28 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm waiting for the rise of cell phones to make it >> >> 202x All the world's an ARM running Android >> > ....on Linux. :) Kinda... It's a forked Linux kernel today, but BSD / Java userland. And there's been persistent rumors of a next gen OS that will replace Linux that Google has been working on that's BSD licensed. Warner From hachti at hachti.de Thu Mar 16 11:51:52 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:51:52 +0100 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> Message-ID: This header change thing is A BIG MESS!!!!! Make it like before, PLEASE! It's just annoying, unusable (On my iOS devices, I can't find the original sender at all!) and completely unneeded. I'm losing fun using the list. On 03/04/2017 08:38 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > For now I have set up a procmail rule to strip the "via cctalk" from the >> From field because this is ugly and redundant. I want the rule, too! Does it restore the old headers as well?!? And WHY do I now have you personally AND the list in my TO: field after simply hitting "reply" in thunderbird? From hachti at hachti.de Thu Mar 16 12:01:27 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 18:01:27 +0100 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <201703061330.IAA00599@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201703061733.MAA22646@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 03/07/2017 10:57 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 6 Mar 2017, Mouse wrote: > [...] > > And BTW, what you are doing is not clever at all: > mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG > SMTP error from remote mail server after initial connection: > host MX-4.rodents-montreal.org [98.124.61.89]: > 550-.de's whois server, whois.denic.de, is completely broken, handing > 550-out no contact information at all when queried for .de domains in > 550 the usual way. Such a domain has no place on a civilized network. > > This is just wrong. Of course they hand out contact information! > Sorry, I had to post it here since I cannot contact you directly. Uh, that's funny! I visited the rodent-server as well... Interesting.... The opposite of a mouse trap! > hachti at donald:~$ telnet MX-4.rodents-montreal.org 25 > Trying 192.139.46.68... > Trying 98.124.61.89... > Connected to MX-4.rodents-montreal.org. > Escape character is '^]'. > helo donald.hachti.de > 550-.de's whois server, whois.denic.de, is completely broken, handing > 550-out no contact information at all when queried for .de domains in > 550 the usual way. Such a domain has no place on a civilized network. > Connection closed by foreign host. RUDE! From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Mar 16 14:08:01 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:08:01 +0100 Subject: Android rumors [Was: Pair of Twiggys] In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20170316190800.GP15948@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 10:49:56AM -0600, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 9:28 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I'm waiting for the rise of cell phones to make it > >> > >> 202x All the world's an ARM running Android > >> > > ....on Linux. :) > > Kinda... It's a forked Linux kernel today, but BSD / Java userland. > And there's been persistent rumors of a next gen OS that will replace > Linux that Google has been working on that's BSD licensed. > > Warner Plan9 rewritten in Go? that would make my day :) /P From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 16 15:30:41 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:30:41 -0500 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b001d29e94$2e6f24f0$8b4d6ed0$@classiccmp.org> It was written.... ============== This header change thing is A BIG MESS!!!!! Make it like before, PLEASE! It's just annoying, unusable (On my iOS devices, I can't find the original sender at all!) and completely unneeded. I'm losing fun using the list. ---------------------- We've been in the process of moving our datacenter. As a result, changing headers on this list has been the last thing on my mind priority-wise. Add to that, we still have a few machines to move that will require hand-reimplementation instead of just migration, and those have to be finished first (paying customers). Add to that... when THIS server gets reimplemented, the lists will be recombined and the above patch should not be necessary. So - given available time and priorities, I'd appreciate it if you could suffer the lack of fun for a few weeks or a couple months, whatever it takes me to (a) find the time and (b) to get it done. After that, I'm sure the fun will return. Thanks for patience and understanding! Best, J From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Mar 16 16:07:54 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:07:54 -0400 Subject: I hate the new mail system References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <00b001d29e94$2e6f24f0$8b4d6ed0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3515ADFA26064845BC65479CE6276B18@310e2> Jay, I think that despite the occasional venting of frustration we're mostly just trying to add some data points that may help in the migration. I'm pretty confident that every member of the list appreciates the time, effort and whatever else you and certain others have contributed to keep this list humming as well as it almost always does; I certainly do. Thank you! m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West via cctalk" To: "'Philipp Hachtmann'" ; "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 4:30 PM Subject: RE: I hate the new mail system > It was written.... > ============== > This header change thing is A BIG MESS!!!!! Make it like before, PLEASE! > It's just annoying, unusable (On my iOS devices, I can't find the original > sender at all!) and completely unneeded. > > I'm losing fun using the list. > ---------------------- > > We've been in the process of moving our datacenter. As a result, changing > headers on this list has been the last thing on my mind priority-wise. > > Add to that, we still have a few machines to move that will require > hand-reimplementation instead of just migration, and those have to be > finished first (paying customers). > > Add to that... when THIS server gets reimplemented, the lists will be > recombined and the above patch should not be necessary. > > So - given available time and priorities, I'd appreciate it if you could > suffer the lack of fun for a few weeks or a couple months, whatever it takes > me to (a) find the time and (b) to get it done. After that, I'm sure the fun > will return. Thanks for patience and understanding! > > Best, > > J > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 16 16:09:35 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:09:35 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 6:55 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2017-03-15 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> Has anybody else noticed that the meaning of "portable code" seems to have >> morphed into "can be built on two or three different flavours of Linux"? > > 1983. All the world's a VAX. And about 2 years later, I learned C on a VAX... > 1993. No sorry, all the world's a SPARC. > > 2013. Oops, no, all the world's an x86. >From 1997-1999, I worked at Lucent where we ran SPARC, NCR x86 boxes, DEC Alpha, and a couple of lonely VAXen... One of the interesting episodes in that transitional time was when some app/utility program written by the group "worked on the NCR" but "failed on the SPARC", which was proof to some of them that something was wrong with the SPARC or at least "better" about the x86... what was really going on was someone did a strlen() of a pointer which was NULL, and really didn't understand that when the man page says that behavior is "undefined", that *both* machines were doing the right thing (they figured it should act only like strlen() of a pointer to a NULL and return 0, rather than segfault for attempting to dereference a pointer to 0x00000000...) I politely suggested they should go back and read up on what "undefined" means and then go fix their code... -ethan From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Mar 16 16:37:01 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:37:01 -0400 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-03-16 5:09 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 6:55 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk > wrote: >> On 2017-03-15 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >>> Has anybody else noticed that the meaning of "portable code" seems to have >>> morphed into "can be built on two or three different flavours of Linux"? >> >> 1983. All the world's a VAX. > > And about 2 years later, I learned C on a VAX... > >> 1993. No sorry, all the world's a SPARC. >> >> 2013. Oops, no, all the world's an x86. > >>From 1997-1999, I worked at Lucent where we ran SPARC, NCR x86 boxes, > DEC Alpha, and a couple of lonely VAXen... One of the interesting > episodes in that transitional time was when some app/utility program > written by the group "worked on the NCR" but "failed on the SPARC", > which was proof to some of them that something was wrong with the > SPARC or at least "better" about the x86... what was really going on > was someone did a strlen() of a pointer which was NULL, and really > didn't understand that when the man page says that behavior is > "undefined", that *both* machines were doing the right thing (they > figured it should act only like strlen() of a pointer to a NULL and > return 0, rather than segfault for attempting to dereference a pointer > to 0x00000000...) > > I politely suggested they should go back and read up on what > "undefined" means and then go fix their code... Porting to diverse architectures is still a great way to find latent bugs. --Toby > > -ethan > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 16 16:42:06 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain via cctalk at "Mar 16, 17 05:37:01 pm" Message-ID: <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> > > I politely suggested they should go back and read up on what > > "undefined" means and then go fix their code... > > Porting to diverse architectures is still a great way to find latent bugs. Too bad people can't be arsed to port merely to diverse *operating systems*, let alone architectures. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "97% of readers say surveys are rubbish" -- The Register ------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 16 16:54:49 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:54:49 -0400 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> Porting to diverse architectures is still a great way to find latent bugs. > > Too bad people can't be arsed to port merely to diverse *operating systems*, > let alone architectures. I'm one of the folks that works on LCDproc. Part of the release testing I do is to compile it on things that aren't just "yet another Linux box". Of all the use-cases, I'm pretty sure that it's going to work on Debian-flavored things and if that ever breaks, it's going to be the one thing that gets fixed first. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 16 17:08:58 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:08:58 -0700 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com> On 03/16/2017 02:54 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk > wrote: >>> Porting to diverse architectures is still a great way to find >>> latent bugs. >> >> Too bad people can't be arsed to port merely to diverse *operating >> systems*, let alone architectures. > > I'm one of the folks that works on LCDproc. Part of the release > testing I do is to compile it on things that aren't just "yet > another Linux box". Of all the use-cases, I'm pretty sure that it's > going to work on Debian-flavored things and if that ever breaks, it's > going to be the one thing that gets fixed first. Sadly (or happily--take your choice), architectures aren't nearly as diverse as they used to be. Ones complement, decimal, six-bit characters... And people who weren't there can't understand why FORTRAN was the closest thing to a "portable" language... --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 16 18:16:14 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:16:14 +0000 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com> References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> , <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys On 03/16/2017 02:54 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk > wrote: >>> Porting to diverse architectures is still a great way to find >>> latent bugs. >> >> Too bad people can't be arsed to port merely to diverse *operating >> systems*, let alone architectures. > > I'm one of the folks that works on LCDproc. Part of the release > testing I do is to compile it on things that aren't just "yet > another Linux box". Of all the use-cases, I'm pretty sure that it's > going to work on Debian-flavored things and if that ever breaks, it's > going to be the one thing that gets fixed first. Sadly (or happily--take your choice), architectures aren't nearly as diverse as they used to be. Ones complement, decimal, six-bit characters... And people who weren't there can't understand why FORTRAN was the closest thing to a "portable" language... __________________________________________ Not even close to COBOL. :-) bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 16 18:30:36 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:30:36 +0000 Subject: Univac I memory tank In-Reply-To: References: <20170314214157.08A3F18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <20170315081109.GM15948@Update.UU.SE> , Message-ID: If anyone has a Diehl Combitron or one of the NCR versions. I'd love to have one. I used one years ago while working for UofMiami. I used it because it could be programmed and did square root. I can't pay what one is worth but would still love to have one. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 2:22:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Univac I memory tank On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, dwight wrote: > The Olivetti used a piece of wire for the delay line. I forget what the > Dielh Combitron used but I know it used a two delay lines. One was for > registers and the other was for lookup tables that loaded at turn on > time from a metal tape ( as I recall ). I can tell you exactly what the Diehl Combitron does; I have a running bachelor thesis for a student who is developing an emulator and assembler for that machine, and we have also disassembled (but not yet understood) the firmware (contained on the metal tape) of the machine. In fact, it uses two magnetostrictive delay lines, one is called the R delay line containing 219 bits plus one external in a flip-flop. The other is called the M delay line with a total of 10889+1 bits. The main clock of the machine is 1 MHz thus a bit time (called P) is 1 ?s. The R line holds four words ? 55 bits, one in the I phase P bits time, one in the I phase /P bits time, one in the /I phase P bits time and one in the /I phase /P bits time. The instructions are always fetched from the I phase /P bits and executed in the /I phase. The M line holds a total of 99 P words and 99 /P words. The phase between P and /P changes every M cycle During the loading phase (e.g. at power on or after a 'e1' order) the R line is filled with the contents coming from tape and then executed. Usually the code just transfers the other three words of the R line somewhere into the M line and restarts the loading phase for the next block. After loading the last block a fill instruction "jumps" to the entry point of the firmware. The fill instruction transfers four words from the M line to the R line. Christian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 16 18:37:32 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:37:32 +0000 Subject: AC magnetic field strengths In-Reply-To: References: <92bfdf07-06d2-bb4d-771b-1810637c9217@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: It sounds like one can make a fine tape degausser by connecting a super magnet to the end of a paint stirring rod and use a drill to spin it. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Tapley, Mark via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 11:51:07 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: AC magnetic field strengths On Mar 15, 2017, at 12:01 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I bought an AlphaLabs GM-2 Gaussmeter for another project, and measured the AC magnetic > field strength touching these devices yesterday, since I really didn't have any idea beyond > order of magnitude what they might be > > Handheld tape head demagnetizer: 40 Gauss > GC Elec 9317 CRT degausing coil: 70 Gauss > Audiolab TD-3 desktop bulk eraser: 1000 Gauss > Inmac 7180 or > RS 44-233A handheld bulk tape erasers: 2000 Gauss > > > > also the DC field of a 1/4" button super magnet like on the > backs of clip on badges is about 3000 Gauss More context available at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(magnetic_field) ranging from 50 femtoGauss (what the Gravity Probe B SQUID magnetometers measured with several days? averaging) to 100 MegaGauss (strongest pulsed field ever obtained at Sandia Labs). Interestingly that page claims 12.5 kGauss for a "neodymium?iron?boron (Nd2 Fe14 B) rare earth magnet? (subscripts on the atomic symbols got converted to plain text during cut-n-paste). Guess the badges have weaker versions? Interesting to compare earth field and the badge fastener field to practical exposure limit for pacemakers - only about a factor of 10 at the poles - and to loudspeaker coils, which are 5000 times above the recommended pacemaker limit. Now I know why people with pacemakers don?t like rock music (and name tags)! :-) - Mark From js at cimmeri.com Thu Mar 16 19:06:09 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:06:09 -0500 Subject: AC magnetic field strengths In-Reply-To: References: <92bfdf07-06d2-bb4d-771b-1810637c9217@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <58CB2871.1080606@cimmeri.com> That is in fact how I spot degauss CRT screens, but using a flat wood boring bit (metal, obviously, instead of a paint stick) with the magnet stuck on the end, spun around with a drill. - J. On 3/16/2017 6:37 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > It sounds like one can make a fine tape degausser by connecting > > a super magnet to the end of a paint stirring rod and use a drill > > to spin it. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Tapley, Mark via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 11:51:07 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: AC magnetic field strengths > > On Mar 15, 2017, at 12:01 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> I bought an AlphaLabs GM-2 Gaussmeter for another project, and measured the AC magnetic >> field strength touching these devices yesterday, since I really didn't have any idea beyond >> order of magnitude what they might be >> >> Handheld tape head demagnetizer: 40 Gauss >> GC Elec 9317 CRT degausing coil: 70 Gauss >> Audiolab TD-3 desktop bulk eraser: 1000 Gauss >> Inmac 7180 or >> RS 44-233A handheld bulk tape erasers: 2000 Gauss >> >> >> >> also the DC field of a 1/4" button super magnet like on the >> backs of clip on badges is about 3000 Gauss > More context available at: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(magnetic_field) > > ranging from 50 femtoGauss (what the Gravity Probe B SQUID magnetometers measured with several days? averaging) to 100 MegaGauss (strongest pulsed field ever obtained at Sandia Labs). > > Interestingly that page claims 12.5 kGauss for a "neodymium?iron?boron (Nd2 Fe14 B) rare earth magnet? (subscripts on the atomic symbols got converted to plain text during cut-n-paste). Guess the badges have weaker versions? > > Interesting to compare earth field and the badge fastener field to practical exposure limit for pacemakers - only about a factor of 10 at the poles - and to loudspeaker coils, which are 5000 times above the recommended pacemaker limit. > > Now I know why people with pacemakers don?t like rock music (and name tags)! > > :-) > > - Mark > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 16 20:28:17 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:28:17 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/16/2017 5:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:08 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys > > On 03/16/2017 02:54 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk >> wrote: >>>> Porting to diverse architectures is still a great way to find >>>> latent bugs. >>> >>> Too bad people can't be arsed to port merely to diverse *operating >>> systems*, let alone architectures. >> >> I'm one of the folks that works on LCDproc. Part of the release >> testing I do is to compile it on things that aren't just "yet >> another Linux box". Of all the use-cases, I'm pretty sure that it's >> going to work on Debian-flavored things and if that ever breaks, it's >> going to be the one thing that gets fixed first. > > Sadly (or happily--take your choice), architectures aren't nearly as > diverse as they used to be. Ones complement, decimal, six-bit characters... > > And people who weren't there can't understand why FORTRAN was the > closest thing to a "portable" language... > > __________________________________________ > > Not even close to COBOL. :-) > > bill > But was FORTRAN that portable? Other than the IBM 1130 I cannot think of a small computer that had ample I/O and memory to run and compile FORTRAN. All the other 16 bitters seem to more paper tape I/O. I suspect 90% of all university computers ended up as IBM 360 systems. A few ended up with the VAX, but who knows what they ran. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 16 21:16:40 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Mar 2017, ben via cctalk wrote: > But was FORTRAN that portable? Who was it who said, "FORTRAN is more portable than syphilis" > Other than the IBM 1130 I cannot think of a small computer > that had ample I/O and memory to run and compile FORTRAN. All the > other 16 bitters seem to more paper tape I/O. > I suspect 90% of all university computers ended up as IBM 360 > systems. A few ended up with the VAX, but who knows what they > ran. 1401 1620 (if you count PDQ) In 1983, I was called in as a long-term substitute to take over teaching a Fortran class using IBM PCs with Microsoft/IBM Fortran. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 16 21:26:40 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Who was it who said, "FORTRAN is more portable than syphilis" I found it! I thought Djikstra, but it turned out to be Stan Kelly-Bootle: "The definition of FORTRAN from the "Devil's DP Dictionary", by Stan Kelly-Bootle: "FORTRAN n. [Acronym for FORmula TRANslating system.] One of the earliest languages of any real height, level-wise, developed out of Speedcoding by Backus and Ziller for the IBM/704 in the mid 1950s in order to boost the sale of 80-column cards to engineers. In spite of regular improvements(including a recent option called 'STRUCTURE'), it remains popular among engineers but despised elsewhere. Many rivals, with the benefit of hindsight, have crossed swords with the old workhorse ! Yet FORTRAN gallops on, warts and all, more transportable than syphilis, fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms. Lacking the compact power of APL, the intellectually satisfying elegance of ALGOL 68, the didactic incision of Pascal, and the spurned universality of PL/I, FORTRAN survives, nay, FLOURISHES, thanks to a superior investmental inertia." From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 16 21:28:46 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 02:28:46 +0000 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of ben via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 9:28 PM To: computer talk Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys On 3/16/2017 5:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:08 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys > > On 03/16/2017 02:54 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk >> wrote: >>>> Porting to diverse architectures is still a great way to find >>>> latent bugs. >>> >>> Too bad people can't be arsed to port merely to diverse *operating >>> systems*, let alone architectures. >> >> I'm one of the folks that works on LCDproc. Part of the release >> testing I do is to compile it on things that aren't just "yet >> another Linux box". Of all the use-cases, I'm pretty sure that it's >> going to work on Debian-flavored things and if that ever breaks, it's >> going to be the one thing that gets fixed first. > > Sadly (or happily--take your choice), architectures aren't nearly as > diverse as they used to be. Ones complement, decimal, six-bit characters... > > And people who weren't there can't understand why FORTRAN was the > closest thing to a "portable" language... > > __________________________________________ > > Not even close to COBOL. :-) > > bill > But was FORTRAN that portable? Other than the IBM 1130 I cannot think of a small computer that had ample I/O and memory to run and compile FORTRAN. All the other 16 bitters seem to more paper tape I/O. I suspect 90% of all university computers ended up as IBM 360 systems. A few ended up with the VAX, but who knows what they ran. Ben. _____________________________________ Ummmm... I ran Fortran on a TRS-80 with no problems. I also ran it on an LSI-11/02 under UCSD-Pascal. Of course, I ran COBOL on the same systems. :-) As for Universities. I worked on the academic systems at the Military Academy at West Point. While the G&CS (Geography and Computer Science) Department did have a VAX 11/750 running VMS (and Eunice) the main academic machine when I got there was a Univac-1100 later replaced by a bunch of Prime 850's. bill From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 16 21:30:36 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:30:36 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> On 03/16/2017 06:28 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > But was FORTRAN that portable? Other than the IBM 1130 I cannot think > of a small computer that had ample I/O and memory to run and compile > FORTRAN. All the other 16 bitters seem to more paper tape I/O. I > suspect 90% of all university computers ended up as IBM 360 systems. > A few ended up with the VAX, but who knows what they ran. Oh, dear--time for a history lesson. 1. Even the IBM 650 had a FORTRAN of sorts 2. One thing that was a sales point for the PDP-8 back in the day was that for about $5K, you could get a computer that would run 4K FORTRAN: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/software/DEC-08-AFCO-D_4K_FORTRAN.pdf 3. FORTRAN was originally released, IIRC for the IBM 709, and was a card-only system; versions for the 704, and, as previously mentioned, the 650. I've used card-only FORTRANs on the 1620 and 1401. 4. The 8080/Z80 had FORTRAN, and I suspect there was also a FORTRAN for the 8008 (if APL on the 8008 was possible, surely FORTRAN was). 5. I've never heard of a COBOL for the IBM 650. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 16 22:19:29 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Oh, dear--time for a history lesson. Not quite on a par with: In response to a question of who provided the Lisa FORTRAN, guy who insisted that Valtrep was the predecessor of FORTRAN 'course he also had OS/2 for the PDP-11, and a PROGRAM that could duplicate alignment disks, . . . Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 09:59:17 -0400 From: Dan G Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the 80s . . . From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 16 22:31:44 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:31:44 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> On 03/16/2017 08:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > In response to a question of who provided the Lisa FORTRAN, guy who > insisted that Valtrep was the predecessor of FORTRAN 'course he also > had OS/2 for the PDP-11, and a PROGRAM that could duplicate alignment > disks, . . . Oh jeez, not that again! I'd hoped that I'd forgotten about him... Isn't "Valdtrep" a Norwegian march by Johannes Hanssen? --Chuck From leec2124 at gmail.com Thu Mar 16 10:09:37 2017 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:09:37 -0700 Subject: Looking for an Intel SRM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Camiel - I have cross-posted this to the Intel Alumni list for you. I asked anyone with info to contact you directly. Good luck! Lee Courtney On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 6:26 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Here?s a long shot, about as long as they get. > > I received an Intel iPSC/860 supercomputer, but it?s lacking the Intel SRM > (System Resource Manager), without which the system is a boat anchor. > > The SRM is an Intel 386 desktop machine, with a SYP301 motherboard and a > plugin card to connect it to the iPSC/860. There?s a cable coming from the > iPSC with a 25-pin D connector, which I believe is the connection to the > SRM. It?s not a regular serial port, but a bidirectional 2.6MByte per > second connection. The interface card likely uses a bunch of Xilinx chips > (the interface cards on the iPSC node boards do). I have not been able to > find a picture of what the box looks like on the outside, so I have no > idea. So, I?m looking for one of these, preferably one the owner would be > willing to part with :-) > > Camiel > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From g4ugm at outlook.com Thu Mar 16 14:22:53 2017 From: g4ugm at outlook.com (David Wade) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:22:53 +0000 Subject: VCF Europe Message-ID: Folks, Rod has spurred me on to pay a visit to VCF Europe. I wonder if any one else on the list is going. If so any thoughts on Hotels? I will probably only manage the Saturday! Dave From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Fri Mar 17 01:19:35 2017 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 07:19:35 +0100 Subject: VCF Europe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <086f2fcc-804b-6a1d-582b-640fae0ef2af@ljw.me.uk> Dave and anyone else thinking of going, Last year I stayed at the Central Hotel-Apart, Josephsburgstra?e 26, 81673 M?nchen (http://www.centralhotelapart.de but doesn't seem to work right now.) It's 500m or so from the venue. The Hotel Eisenreich mentioned on the website is no longer there. I'm not sure if I'm going - I probably need to get a move on organising how to get the stuff there. It looks like it's 3 days this year, and May 1 is a holiday here too, but museums etc. were closed on that day so if I go I'll try to do a bit of looking around on the Sunday. Lawrence On 16/03/17 20:22, David Wade via cctalk wrote: > Folks, > Rod has spurred me on to pay a visit to VCF Europe. I wonder if any one else on the list is going. If so any thoughts on Hotels? I will probably only manage the Saturday! > Dave > > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 17 08:05:11 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 09:05:11 -0400 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0D22B6E9-9D36-4B6A-B9A1-F45C80299A78@comcast.net> > On Mar 16, 2017, at 9:28 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > But was FORTRAN that portable? > Other than the IBM 1130 I cannot think of a small computer > that had ample I/O and memory to run and compile FORTRAN. All the > other 16 bitters seem to more paper tape I/O. > I suspect 90% of all university computers ended up as IBM 360 > systems. A few ended up with the VAX, but who knows what they > ran. > Ben. I know of FORTRAN implementations for one's complement machines with word length of 24, 27, and 60 bits, decimal machines (IBM 1620), two's complement machines of 12, 16, 48 bit words, just to pick a few. FORTRAN implementations tended not to be all that demanding of resources: 4k words is a typical minimum. I think a lot of high level languages are quite portable. ALGOL is not as widely ported but not because it's inherently harder. PASCAL was ported to many different machines too. C is a bit of an anomaly because it's more like a high level assembly language, so it has portability limitations that many other high level languages don't run into. paul From hachti at hachti.de Fri Mar 17 08:43:21 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:43:21 +0100 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <3515ADFA26064845BC65479CE6276B18@310e2> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <00b001d29e94$2e6f24f0$8b4d6ed0$@classiccmp.org> <3515ADFA26064845BC65479CE6276B18@310e2> Message-ID: On 03/16/2017 10:07 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > I'm pretty confident that every member of the list appreciates the > time, effort and whatever else you and certain others have > contributed to keep this list humming as well as it almost always > does; Full ack, of course! But the new addressing scheme still sucks, sorry. Kind regards Philipp From tingox at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 08:46:31 2017 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:46:31 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 4:31 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 03/16/2017 08:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > Isn't "Valdtrep" a Norwegian march by Johannes Hanssen? It's Valdres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdres and Valdres march. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Mar 17 09:44:11 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 07:44:11 -0700 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions In-Reply-To: References: <56A3918E.4060405@gmail.com> <003901d156a1$5acdb890$106929b0$@xs4all.nl> <7D4B3E05-76D3-422F-A19E-71BF60ACDF20@fozztexx.com> <002e01d156ea$25aebe40$710c3ac0$@xs4all.nl> <007e01d15785$26731c40$735954c0$@xs4all.nl> <56A6999A.6080908@gmail.com> <000401d157be$de3ce2f0$9ab6a8d0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: An update I acquired another 9000/382 with a hard drive. It booting into VUE and eventually found out it is running HP-UX 9.10, As usual no root password. I tried the -\ "hack" while a fsck was taking place and on the 2nd try it dropped me into single user mode. From there the rest was easy https://goo.gl/photos/rDN8bhjVxoeSCw7k8 Looks like a clean install of 9.10 with nothing else. I'll do a dump of the drive and post the image when I get a chance, lots of other projects going on. Now to come up to speed on HP-UX and get it on the network. Thanks to Frank Slootweg via comp.sys.hp.hpux for the keyboard characters to try. -pete On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 2:00 AM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jan 2016, Rik Bos wrote: > >> These tapes where used in a number of machine such as 9825, 9831, 9835, >>> 9845, >>> 9915, and 85A&B. There was also at least 1 external tape drive that >>> used these >>> >> [...] > >> Aagh, I forgot about the HP85 some instrument programs where written for >> > [...] > > For me, the most obvious machines would be the HP264x terminals ;-) > There are numerous software packaged on DC100 cartridges meant to be > read/used with e.g. a HP2645 terminal attached to a HP system (HP1000 or > HP3000) > > Christian > > From john at forecast.name Fri Mar 17 10:16:20 2017 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:16:20 -0400 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <0D22B6E9-9D36-4B6A-B9A1-F45C80299A78@comcast.net> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <0D22B6E9-9D36-4B6A-B9A1-F45C80299A78@comcast.net> Message-ID: <06DBF9F1-931F-4361-95A1-C3A6B3ED43B7@forecast.name> > On Mar 17, 2017, at 9:05 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Mar 16, 2017, at 9:28 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> But was FORTRAN that portable? >> Other than the IBM 1130 I cannot think of a small computer >> that had ample I/O and memory to run and compile FORTRAN. All the >> other 16 bitters seem to more paper tape I/O. >> I suspect 90% of all university computers ended up as IBM 360 >> systems. A few ended up with the VAX, but who knows what they >> ran. >> Ben. > > I know of FORTRAN implementations for one's complement machines with word length of 24, 27, and 60 bits, decimal machines (IBM 1620), two's complement machines of 12, 16, 48 bit words, just to pick a few. FORTRAN implementations tended not to be all that demanding of resources: 4k words is a typical minimum. > > I think a lot of high level languages are quite portable. ALGOL is not as widely ported but not because it's inherently harder. PASCAL was ported to many different machines too. C is a bit of an anomaly because it's more like a high level assembly language, so it has portability limitations that many other high level languages don't run into. > > paul > I just released a new version of the CDC 1700 simulator for SIMH. This is a one?s complement, 16-bit machine and the Fortran compiler is now functional in 16KW of available space (a smaller version (12KW) was available but I don?t know if any copies survived). The source code for the compiler is available on Bitsavers - it?s written mostly in Fortran. John. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 10:38:19 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:38:19 +0100 Subject: I hate the new mail system Message-ID: On 17 March 2017 at 14:43, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > > > On 03/16/2017 10:07 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >> >> I'm pretty confident that every member of the list appreciates the >> time, effort and whatever else you and certain others have >> contributed to keep this list humming as well as it almost always >> does; > > Full ack, of course! > > But the new addressing scheme still sucks, sorry. I still maintain that the change solved every issue I've had, reading with gmail. No more posts ending up in the spam folder unless I configured 'never send to spam' (which has its own issues), no more of the weekly or bi-weekly automatic de-registrations, and addressing (when replying) at the same level of difficulty as before (i.e. not much, just edit out what's not needed). From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 10:42:41 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:42:41 -0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <027801d29f35$1d566510$58032f30$@outlook.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tor > Arntsen via cctalk > Sent: 17 March 2017 15:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: I hate the new mail system > > On 17 March 2017 at 14:43, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > On 03/16/2017 10:07 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> I'm pretty confident that every member of the list appreciates the > >> time, effort and whatever else you and certain others have > >> contributed to keep this list humming as well as it almost always > >> does; > > > > Full ack, of course! > > > > But the new addressing scheme still sucks, sorry. > > I still maintain that the change solved every issue I've had, reading with gmail. > No more posts ending up in the spam folder unless I configured 'never send > to spam' (which has its own issues), no more of the weekly or bi-weekly > automatic de-registrations, and addressing (when replying) at the same level > of difficulty as before (i.e. not much, just edit out what's not needed). The same here. Much better. Dave From sales at elecplus.com Fri Mar 17 11:54:22 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:54:22 -0500 Subject: sealed packets of DOS 6.22 and Win 3.1 Message-ID: <079a01d29f3f$20881170$61983450$@com> If anybody wants them: https://www.elecshopper.com/dos-6-22-and-windows-3-1-on-3-5-inch-floppy-disk ettes.html Cindy Croxton From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 17 12:06:47 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 10:06:47 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1babc5d9-7563-dfa8-b9c6-2182d4936b51@sydex.com> On 03/17/2017 06:46 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 4:31 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> On 03/16/2017 08:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Isn't "Valdtrep" a Norwegian march by Johannes Hanssen? > > It's Valdres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdres and Valdres > march. Oh, I know--I was making a joke. It's a fine march and I've performed it in convert bands many times. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 17 12:17:03 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 10:17:03 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <1babc5d9-7563-dfa8-b9c6-2182d4936b51@sydex.com> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> <1babc5d9-7563-dfa8-b9c6-2182d4936b51@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3297f77b-e2df-abfa-ea76-50b814c83e98@sydex.com> On 03/17/2017 10:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Oh, I know--I was making a joke. It's a fine march and I've > performed it in convert bands many times. Er, make that "concert bands".... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 17 13:09:18 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> Message-ID: >>>> In response to a question of who provided the Lisa FORTRAN, guy who >>>> insisted that Valtrep was the predecessor of FORTRAN 'course he also >>>> had OS/2 for the PDP-11, and a PROGRAM that could duplicate alignment >>>> disks, . . . >>> Isn't "Valdtrep" a Norwegian march by Johannes Hanssen? >> It's Valdres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdres and Valdres >> march. > Oh, I know--I was making a joke. It's a fine march and I've performed > it in conCert bands many times. and, although we don't know when YOU were playing it, the march had been around half a century, so was probably playing on the radio to inspire Backus. Does that mean that Dan. might be right about it being the predecessor to FORTRAN? OB_Trivia: Originally "FORTRAN" was a portmanteau of "FORmula TRANslation". cf. Lewis Carroll, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/portmanteau (Q: Why would anybody make a computer language out of a big suitcase? A: for portability!) In 1992?, the revised standard changed the official spelling from FORTRAN to Fortran, (Fortran 8X, Fortran 90) Valtrep came long after FORTRAN, and had no discernable influence on Fortran. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 17 13:26:33 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:26:33 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3ae3cb89-9452-274e-3c8e-a7703c94d094@sydex.com> On 03/17/2017 11:09 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > and, although we don't know when YOU were playing it, the march had > been around half a century, so was probably playing on the radio to > inspire Backus. Does that mean that Dan. might be right about it > being the predecessor to FORTRAN? Valdres March has been around for more than a century--it's at least 113 years old. So FORTRAN has some catching up to do. It wasn't until the microcomputer era with BASIC, I think that FORTRAN wasn't the first HLL to be contemplated for a new architecture. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 17 13:41:11 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:41:11 -0400 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <3ae3cb89-9452-274e-3c8e-a7703c94d094@sydex.com> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> <3ae3cb89-9452-274e-3c8e-a7703c94d094@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 17, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ... > It wasn't until the microcomputer era with BASIC, I think that FORTRAN > wasn't the first HLL to be contemplated for a new architecture. Not quite true. ALGOL was the first choice for a couple of architectures: Electrologica X8, and the Burroughs 48-bit mainframes. And I supposed you could claim that status for Bliss in the case of VAXen, though in a different sense there was a whole set of high level languages that were there day 1 because the architecture envisioned all of them (and any combination of them). paul From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 17 13:56:20 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:56:20 -0700 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> <3ae3cb89-9452-274e-3c8e-a7703c94d094@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55da3360-9b08-f355-71e6-7c86d86763d4@sydex.com> On 03/17/2017 11:41 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Not quite true. ALGOL was the first choice for a couple of > architectures: Electrologica X8, and the Burroughs 48-bit mainframes. > And I supposed you could claim that status for Bliss in the case of > VAXen, though in a different sense there was a whole set of high > level languages that were there day 1 because the architecture > envisioned all of them (and any combination of them). Well, okay--the European-American divide must be taken into account--and the Burroughs B5000 architecture was sui generis. But by and large, FORTRAN, at least in North America, was the first language of choice in implementation--after assembly, if one can call assembly a language--many would call it "symbolic coding"; using symbols instead of numeric addresses. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 17 14:00:51 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:00:51 -0700 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> <3ae3cb89-9452-274e-3c8e-a7703c94d094@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2abe9574-bea1-5270-17b4-a1aec6ea589b@sydex.com> On 03/17/2017 11:41 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Not quite true. ALGOL was the first choice for a couple of > architectures: Electrologica X8, and the Burroughs 48-bit mainframes. > And I supposed you could claim that status for Bliss in the case of > VAXen, though in a different sense there was a whole set of high > level languages that were there day 1 because the architecture > envisioned all of them (and any combination of them). I'll also consider that there are probably other exceptions. Did FORTRAN or RPG have the honor of "first implemented" on the S/360 Model 20? My gut says RPG. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 17 14:17:47 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 19:17:47 +0000 Subject: AC magnetic field strengths In-Reply-To: <58CB2871.1080606@cimmeri.com> References: <92bfdf07-06d2-bb4d-771b-1810637c9217@bitsavers.org>, , <58CB2871.1080606@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Al You should also measure at about 1 inch. It is an inverse square decrease with distance. The rate of drop off is related to the starting point and the shape of the field. Some have a flat field out to some distance before they start the inverse square drop off. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of js--- via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 5:06:09 PM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion@ Subject: Re: AC magnetic field strengths That is in fact how I spot degauss CRT screens, but using a flat wood boring bit (metal, obviously, instead of a paint stick) with the magnet stuck on the end, spun around with a drill. - J. On 3/16/2017 6:37 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > It sounds like one can make a fine tape degausser by connecting > > a super magnet to the end of a paint stirring rod and use a drill > > to spin it. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Tapley, Mark via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 11:51:07 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: AC magnetic field strengths > > On Mar 15, 2017, at 12:01 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> I bought an AlphaLabs GM-2 Gaussmeter for another project, and measured the AC magnetic >> field strength touching these devices yesterday, since I really didn't have any idea beyond >> order of magnitude what they might be >> >> Handheld tape head demagnetizer: 40 Gauss >> GC Elec 9317 CRT degausing coil: 70 Gauss >> Audiolab TD-3 desktop bulk eraser: 1000 Gauss >> Inmac 7180 or >> RS 44-233A handheld bulk tape erasers: 2000 Gauss >> >> >> >> also the DC field of a 1/4" button super magnet like on the >> backs of clip on badges is about 3000 Gauss > More context available at: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(magnetic_field) > > ranging from 50 femtoGauss (what the Gravity Probe B SQUID magnetometers measured with several days? averaging) to 100 MegaGauss (strongest pulsed field ever obtained at Sandia Labs). > > Interestingly that page claims 12.5 kGauss for a "neodymium?iron?boron (Nd2 Fe14 B) rare earth magnet? (subscripts on the atomic symbols got converted to plain text during cut-n-paste). Guess the badges have weaker versions? > > Interesting to compare earth field and the badge fastener field to practical exposure limit for pacemakers - only about a factor of 10 at the poles - and to loudspeaker coils, which are 5000 times above the recommended pacemaker limit. > > Now I know why people with pacemakers don?t like rock music (and name tags)! > > :-) > > - Mark > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Mar 17 14:38:28 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:38:28 -0700 Subject: I the new mail system (our system observed elsewhere). In-Reply-To: <027801d29f35$1d566510$58032f30$@outlook.com> References: <027801d29f35$1d566510$58032f30$@outlook.com> Message-ID: <9138cddc-f553-6bfb-6ed5-3b5253015ce0@jwsss.com> On 3/17/2017 8:42 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tor >> Arntsen via cctalk >> Sent: 17 March 2017 15:38 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: I hate the new mail system >> >> On 17 March 2017 at 14:43, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> On 03/16/2017 10:07 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >>>> I'm pretty confident that every member of the list appreciates the >>>> time, effort and whatever else you and certain others have >>>> contributed to keep this list humming as well as it almost always >>>> does; >>> Full ack, of course! >>> >>> But the new addressing scheme still sucks, sorry. I had occasion last night to go over one of my emails which is subscribed to probably 10 different lists. I found that three of them have converted as long as a year ago to a scheme with nearly identical entries in the From: field which is being complained about. I don't know if the solution converted to here was made up by our own maintainer (who I don't know, apologies), but worth pointing out that many were doing the same. This included some Yahoo group mailings as well, but not all. thanks Jim >> I still maintain that the change solved every issue I've had, reading with gmail. >> No more posts ending up in the spam folder unless I configured 'never send >> to spam' (which has its own issues), no more of the weekly or bi-weekly >> automatic de-registrations, and addressing (when replying) at the same level >> of difficulty as before (i.e. not much, just edit out what's not needed). > The same here. Much better. > > Dave > > > From sales at elecplus.com Fri Mar 17 14:49:38 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:49:38 -0500 Subject: Unix type OS things Message-ID: <082c01d29f57$9cfd68f0$d6f83ad0$@com> You guys want me to list these? Manuals, software, Tandy Xenix 6000 binder with 8" floppies and manual? Some old (but sealed IBM 8" floppies for I don't recall what (not blanks). Cindy Croxton From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Mar 17 14:56:49 2017 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware In-Reply-To: References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> , <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com> Message-ID: We need to move our business and I have about a ton of classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped: Many Decstations (3100, 5000/1xx and 5000/240/260s series even a 5100) many Vaxstations 3100s mostly Vax 4000 300? 5" DEC hard drives Many DEC mice Small Alphas Dec/HP CRT monitors HP ~1990s Unix workstations and parts Versatec CE3000 plotter (huge) test equipment (misc Tek scopes and plugins mainly) Symbolics 3645? (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back) HP 2115? mini PDP 11 Couple 3 KW UPSs with bad batterys SR22 calculator Altos 5 15 etc Would really like all to go to someone in the CC community who can take all and sort/distribute themselves rather than cherry pick but that may be optimistic... Peter Wallace From kirkbdavis at me.com Fri Mar 17 15:08:31 2017 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:08:31 -0700 Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware In-Reply-To: References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com> My Plate is full but I?m sure others would like to know the location of this stuff. > On Mar 17, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk wrote: > > We need to move our business and I have about a ton of > classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped: > > Many Decstations (3100, 5000/1xx and 5000/240/260s series even a 5100) > many Vaxstations 3100s mostly > Vax 4000 300? > 5" DEC hard drives > Many DEC mice > Small Alphas > Dec/HP CRT monitors > HP ~1990s Unix workstations and parts > Versatec CE3000 plotter (huge) > test equipment (misc Tek scopes and plugins mainly) > Symbolics 3645? (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back) > HP 2115? mini > PDP 11 > Couple 3 KW UPSs with bad batterys > SR22 calculator > Altos 5 15 > etc > > Would really like all to go to someone in the CC community who can take all and sort/distribute themselves rather than cherry pick but that may be optimistic... > > > > Peter Wallace > From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Mar 17 15:14:00 2017 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware In-Reply-To: <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com> References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com> <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Mar 2017, Kirk Davis wrote: > Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:08:31 -0700 > From: Kirk Davis > To: Peter C. Wallace , > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware > > My Plate is full but I??m sure others would like to know the location of this stuff. > Richmond CA (Hilltop business park) > >> On Mar 17, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk wrote: >> >> We need to move our business and I have about a ton of >> classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped: >> >> Many Decstations (3100, 5000/1xx and 5000/240/260s series even a 5100) >> many Vaxstations 3100s mostly >> Vax 4000 300? >> 5" DEC hard drives >> Many DEC mice >> Small Alphas >> Dec/HP CRT monitors >> HP ~1990s Unix workstations and parts >> Versatec CE3000 plotter (huge) >> test equipment (misc Tek scopes and plugins mainly) >> Symbolics 3645? (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back) >> HP 2115? mini >> PDP 11 >> Couple 3 KW UPSs with bad batterys >> SR22 calculator >> Altos 5 15 >> etc >> >> Would really like all to go to someone in the CC community who can take all and sort/distribute themselves rather than cherry pick but that may be optimistic... >> >> >> >> Peter Wallace >> > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 15:46:42 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:46:42 -0400 Subject: Unix type OS things In-Reply-To: <082c01d29f57$9cfd68f0$d6f83ad0$@com> References: <082c01d29f57$9cfd68f0$d6f83ad0$@com> Message-ID: YES please, thanks :) -Devin On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > You guys want me to list these? Manuals, software, Tandy Xenix 6000 binder > with 8" floppies and manual? Some old (but sealed IBM 8" floppies for I > don't recall what (not blanks). > > > > Cindy Croxton > > From useddec at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 17:15:42 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 17:15:42 -0500 Subject: DEC items Message-ID: Hi Peter, Sounds like a nice collection. Which PDP11s do you have? Thanks, Paul From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Mar 17 17:35:17 2017 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Mar 2017, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 17:15:42 -0500 > From: Paul Anderson via cctalk > Reply-To: Paul Anderson , > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > To: Peter C. Wallace via cctalk > Subject: DEC items > > Hi Peter, > > Sounds like a nice collection. Which PDP11s do you have? Unfortunately its pretty buried. Its in one of those narrow vertical cases and i dont think its a terribly desirable or fast one though ISTR that it does have a A-D card installed > Thanks, Paul > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 17 21:02:34 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 21:02:34 -0500 Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware In-Reply-To: References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> , <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <58CC953A.5000609@pico-systems.com> On 03/17/2017 02:56 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk wrote: > We need to move our business and I have about a ton of > classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get > scrapped: > You, too, Peter? Wow, this is sure a small world! I'm still getting rid of a few VAX items. Jon From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Mar 17 23:01:14 2017 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 21:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware In-Reply-To: <58CC953A.5000609@pico-systems.com> References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> , <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com> <58CC953A.5000609@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Mar 2017, Jon Elson wrote: > Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 21:02:34 -0500 > From: Jon Elson > To: Peter C. Wallace , > General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware > > On 03/17/2017 02:56 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk wrote: >> We need to move our business and I have about a ton of >> classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped: >> > You, too, Peter? Wow, this is sure a small world! I'm still getting rid of > a few VAX items. > > Jon > Yeah we have a new place but less storage room at least for a couple of years I also thought I would be playing around with my old computer stuff when I retired, but I really dont see that happening (retiring soon or playing with old electronics for fun when I do) also significant pressure from SO to "get rid of that junk" Peter Wallace From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Mar 18 03:38:46 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 01:38:46 -0700 Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware In-Reply-To: References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com> <58CC953A.5000609@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7c3ad044-26eb-8134-672d-b8e020e385f4@jwsss.com> On 3/17/2017 9:01 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk wrote: > but I really dont see that happening (retiring soon or playing with > old electronics for fun when I do) also significant pressure from SO to > "get rid of that junk" So far noone that matters has said anything that dumb to me. Why would I save things at significant expense and continue to collect them for 20 to 40 years then "get rid of that junk". I am lucky not o have such a person in a significant place. I'm glad you are good with yours, but I'd not be there. It does mean I don't have an Architecture Digest presentable house as well. And am starting to "play with it". Thanks for sharing it with the list too. I'm in southern CA and not able to help with your offload. My own pile is as big as yours and is hard to deal with. thanks Jim From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Mar 18 15:25:36 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 09:25:36 +1300 Subject: User group magazine scans for an orphan computer model Message-ID: I've been scanning some user group newsletters. Reading them today reveals just how important they were for orphan machines home computers like the EACA Colour Genie. Even if you're not interested in that model, they are worth a look as they do reflect the "user club" scene of the day. I'm assuming New Zealand was much the same as anywhere else in this regard. Somewhat quaint, they reflect a bygone era. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-03-18-eaca-colour-genie-auckland-user-group-newsletters.htm Terry (Tez) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Mar 18 19:21:06 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 00:21:06 +0000 Subject: 8085 RESET Message-ID: Hi folks, 8085-based phone system weirdness continues and I'm beginning to wonder if the PSU rails are all coming up in time for RESET to go high - given there's 4116 DRAMs in there isn't there supposed to be a proper power up order? While I look at using a 20-pin ATX PSU to run this machine temporarily I need a safe way to reset the CPU rather than constantly power cycling. The RESET line comes from an ICL7611 op-amp via an MC14081B through pins 1-4 of a 74LS04 and I need to pull it low for longer than 3 clock cycles. I wish I had a schematic to show! Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Mar 18 19:22:19 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 19:22:19 -0500 Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware Message-ID: <3ptha5wqdjbppmn2vlcf2f69.1489882939720@email.android.com> -------- Original message --------From: jim stephens via cctalk On 3/17/2017 9:01 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk wrote: >>also significant pressure from SO to >> "get rid of that junk" >So far noone that matters has said anything >that dumb to me. It happens when your XYL gets the rank of Spousal Officer. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Mar 18 19:45:45 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 20:45:45 -0400 Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware Message-ID: <87cbf2.26c4eabb.45ff2eb8@aol.com> The New "CC Anonymous" Survey Form!! 20 QUESTIONS Assessment for Compulsive Hoarding & Cluttering 1. Are some living areas in your home cluttered? Y/N 2. Do you have trouble controlling urges to acquire things? Y/N 3. Does the clutter in your home prevent you from using some of your living space? Y/N 4. Do you have trouble controlling your urges to save things? Y/N 5. Do you have trouble walking through areas of your house because of clutter? Y/N 6. Do you have trouble throwing away or discarding things? Y/N 7. Do you experience distress throwing away or discarding possessions? Y/N 8. Do you feel distressed or uncomfortable when you can not acquire something you want? Y/N 9. Does the clutter in your home interfere with your social, work or everyday functioning? Y/N 10. Do you have strong urges to buy or acquire free things for which you have no immediate use? Y/N 11. Does the clutter in your home causes you distress? Y/N 12. Do you have strong urges to save things you know you may never use? Y/N 13. Do you feel upset/distressed about your acquiring habits? Y/N 14. Do you feel unable to control the clutter in your home? Y/N 15. Has compulsive buying resulted in financial difficulties? Y/N 16. Do you often avoid trying to discard possessions because it is too stressful or time consuming? Y/N 17. Do you often decide to keep things you do not need and have little space for? Y/N 18. Does the clutter in your home prevent you from inviting people to visit? Y/N 19. Do you often buy or acquire for free things for which you have no immediate use or need? Y/N 20. Do you often feel unable to discard a possession or possessions you would like to get rid of? Y/N Most hoarders will answer "yes" to at least 7 of these questions. In a message dated 3/18/2017 5:23:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: -------- Original message --------From: jim stephens via cctalk On 3/17/2017 9:01 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk wrote: >>also significant pressure from SO to >> "get rid of that junk" >So far noone that matters has said anything >that dumb to me. It happens when your XYL gets the rank of Spousal Officer. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 18 20:11:58 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 19:11:58 -0600 Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware In-Reply-To: <87cbf2.26c4eabb.45ff2eb8@aol.com> References: <87cbf2.26c4eabb.45ff2eb8@aol.com> Message-ID: <0ea03bdb-7270-a584-f326-f22e27162843@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/18/2017 6:45 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > > > The New "CC Anonymous" Survey Form!! > > 20 QUESTIONS > Assessment for Compulsive Hoarding & Cluttering 1. Are some living > areas in your home cluttered? > Y/N > 2. Do you have trouble controlling urges to acquire things? > Y/N > 3. Does the clutter in your home prevent you from using some of your > living space? > Y/N > 4. Do you have trouble controlling your urges to save things? > Y/N > 5. Do you have trouble walking through areas of your house because of > clutter? > Y/N > 6. Do you have trouble throwing away or discarding things? > Y/N > 7. Do you experience distress throwing away or discarding possessions? > Y/N > 8. Do you feel distressed or uncomfortable when you can not acquire > something you want? > Y/N > 9. Does the clutter in your home interfere with your social, work or > everyday functioning? > Y/N > 10. Do you have strong urges to buy or acquire free things for which you > have no immediate use? > Y/N > 11. Does the clutter in your home causes you distress? > Y/N > 12. Do you have strong urges to save things you know you may never use? > Y/N > 13. Do you feel upset/distressed about your acquiring habits? > Y/N > 14. Do you feel unable to control the clutter in your home? > Y/N > 15. Has compulsive buying resulted in financial difficulties? > Y/N > 16. Do you often avoid trying to discard possessions because it is too > stressful or time consuming? > Y/N > 17. Do you often decide to keep things you do not need and have little > space for? > Y/N > 18. Does the clutter in your home prevent you from inviting people to > visit? > Y/N > 19. Do you often buy or acquire for free things for which you have no > immediate use or need? > Y/N > 20. Do you often feel unable to discard a possession or possessions you > would like to get rid of? > Y/N > > Most hoarders will answer "yes" to at least 7 of these questions. > > In a message dated 3/18/2017 5:23:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > -------- Original message --------From: jim stephens via cctalk > > On 3/17/2017 9:01 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk wrote: >>> also significant pressure from SO to >>> "get rid of that junk" >> So far noone that matters has said anything >that dumb to me. > > It happens when your XYL gets the rank of Spousal Officer. > Yes to all, after I do more internet shopping. Ben. PS: Off to buy Vintage I/O devices. From jason at textfiles.com Sat Mar 18 20:46:26 2017 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 21:46:26 -0400 Subject: User group magazine scans for an orphan computer model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Terry, I've begun porting them to the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/auckland_colour_genie_newsheet On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've been scanning some user group newsletters. Reading them today reveals > just how important they were for orphan machines home computers like the > EACA Colour Genie. Even if you're not interested in that model, they are > worth a look as they do reflect the "user club" scene of the day. I'm > assuming New Zealand was much the same as anywhere else in this regard. > > Somewhat quaint, they reflect a bygone era. > > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-03-18-eaca- > colour-genie-auckland-user-group-newsletters.htm > > Terry (Tez) > From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 11:15:29 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Allison Parent) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:15:29 -0400 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <027801d29f35$1d566510$58032f30$@outlook.com> References: <027801d29f35$1d566510$58032f30$@outlook.com> Message-ID: My puff of smoke. The email provider used decided to quit (verizon) so its gmail. The list works. It broke from time to time before and kept sending everything at least twice if not many more times. This whole discussion is a waste of bandwidth and a disrespect to those that keep it functioning. Allison On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tor > > Arntsen via cctalk > > Sent: 17 March 2017 15:38 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: I hate the new mail system > > > > On 17 March 2017 at 14:43, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 03/16/2017 10:07 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > >> > > >> I'm pretty confident that every member of the list appreciates the > > >> time, effort and whatever else you and certain others have > > >> contributed to keep this list humming as well as it almost always > > >> does; > > > > > > Full ack, of course! > > > > > > But the new addressing scheme still sucks, sorry. > > > > I still maintain that the change solved every issue I've had, reading > with gmail. > > No more posts ending up in the spam folder unless I configured 'never > send > > to spam' (which has its own issues), no more of the weekly or bi-weekly > > automatic de-registrations, and addressing (when replying) at the same > level > > of difficulty as before (i.e. not much, just edit out what's not needed). > > The same here. Much better. > > Dave > > From w9gb at icloud.com Fri Mar 17 12:44:19 2017 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:44:19 -0500 Subject: HP 9000/382 Questions Message-ID: <80A4AD09-6C72-4C0F-BA61-695DF934F2A0@icloud.com> Just threw out all of my HP/UX v9 training manuals from that era, last year. Reliable machine for the era when Intel 80386/80486 were the top processors. greg Sent from iPad Air From RichA at livingcomputers.org Fri Mar 17 13:50:17 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 18:50:17 +0000 Subject: I hate the new mail system In-Reply-To: <00b001d29e94$2e6f24f0$8b4d6ed0$@classiccmp.org> References: <8081e31ffd8e4ce6abdcaa1c48ac16e5@livingcomputers.org> <20170228215001.D9185A58595@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201702282254.RAA05100@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3e67191c-319c-eebe-6df1-38ade2bccd6f@sydex.com> <7d5b91e2-9a85-1d9f-d29a-9a510e106c71@gmail.com> <3672896e-7498-ad86-941a-34296d007c0a@tds.net> <0625918f-47a6-4e73-6e46-396d5c9cbb06@sydex.com> <7844bcc8-c063-da0b-ad5a-0e81f7396f9f@gmail.com> <00b001d29e94$2e6f24f0$8b4d6ed0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3912da212baf4119b5b5757b334a19cd@livingcomputers.org> From: Jay West Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 1:31 PM > We've been in the process of moving our datacenter. As a result, changing > headers on this list has been the last thing on my mind priority-wise. > Add to that, we still have a few machines to move that will require > hand-reimplementation instead of just migration, and those have to be > finished first (paying customers). > Add to that... when THIS server gets reimplemented, the lists will be > recombined and the above patch should not be necessary. > So - given available time and priorities, I'd appreciate it if you could > suffer the lack of fun for a few weeks or a couple months, whatever it takes > me to (a) find the time and (b) to get it done. After that, I'm sure the fun > will return. Thanks for patience and understanding! Jay, Thanks for putting up with the long, long discussion my original intemperate complaint sparked. (A good friend who's also on the list privately said to me "See what you started?", weeks ago.) Thank you as well for hosting all of this at no charge to the group's members, something for which we are all grateful (even if it does not appear so from time to time). Having managed multiple mailing lists over the decades, I applaud your efforts to keep this a vibrant, civil place to discuss broadly our mutual interests. Best regards, Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From RichA at livingcomputers.org Fri Mar 17 14:07:37 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 19:07:37 +0000 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45baaa0589524a0ba1e0e25197e885a6@livingcomputers.org> From: ben Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:28 PM > On 3/16/2017 5:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> From: Chuck Guzis >> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:08 PM >>> And people who weren't there can't understand why FORTRAN was the closest >>> thing to a "portable" language... >> Not even close to COBOL. :-) Preach it, brother! > But was FORTRAN that portable? Yes. > Other than the IBM 1130 I cannot think of a small computer that had ample I/O > and memory to run and compile FORTRAN. All the other 16 bitters seem to more > paper tape I/O. The PDP-8 family has compilers for both FORTRAN II and FORTRAN IV. 16 bits? What could we possibly do with all that address space? ;-) > I suspect 90% of all university computers ended up as IBM 360 systems. A few > ended up with the VAX, but who knows what they ran. FORTRAN. FORTRAN D (DOS/360), F and G (OS/360), which were FORTRAN IV compilers (retronamed "Fortran 66"). VAX/VMS Fortran 77, except most VAXen of the day you seem to be talking about ran BSD Unix and Fortran was handled by f2c. I learned FORTRAN IV on an IBM 1401, a decimal computer, before moving on to PL/1 and COBOL (and FORTRAN) on the System/360. FORTRAN was, and still is, widespread, even if it doesn't look anything like itself these days. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From RichA at livingcomputers.org Fri Mar 17 14:19:14 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 19:19:14 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <3ae3cb89-9452-274e-3c8e-a7703c94d094@sydex.com> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> <3ae3cb89-9452-274e-3c8e-a7703c94d094@sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 11:27 AM > On 03/17/2017 11:09 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> and, although we don't know when YOU were playing it, the march had >> been around half a century, so was probably playing on the radio to >> inspire Backus. Does that mean that Dan. might be right about it >> being the predecessor to FORTRAN? > Valdres March has been around for more than a century--it's at least 113 > years old. > So FORTRAN has some catching up to do. > It wasn't until the microcomputer era with BASIC, I think that FORTRAN > wasn't the first HLL to be contemplated for a new architecture. "I don't know what the language of the year 2000 will look like, but I know it will be called Fortran." --Tony Hoare, winner of the 1980 Turing Award, in 1982. From cramcram at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 16:04:47 2017 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 21:04:47 +0000 Subject: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware In-Reply-To: References: <3c65fc6d-d399-aa60-8842-5aec75bdfe8a@telegraphics.com.au> <201703162142.v2GLg6GC6946924@floodgap.com> <66de763f-acb3-eba7-d854-6f5825468e5f@sydex.com> <84F420A6-6E77-4A2E-ACF9-107C49CA28CB@me.com> Message-ID: I would love to get a PDP-11 & I'm in the Bay Area. Marc Howard On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 1:14 PM Peter C. Wallace via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 17 Mar 2017, Kirk Davis wrote: > > > > > Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:08:31 -0700 > > > From: Kirk Davis > > > To: Peter C. Wallace , > > > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > > Subject: Re: FTGH Large amount of DEC/Misc Classic computer hardware > > > > > > My Plate is full but I??m sure others would like to know the location of > this stuff. > > > > > > > Richmond CA (Hilltop business park) > > > > > > > >> On Mar 17, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >> > > >> We need to move our business and I have about a ton of > > >> classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped: > > >> > > >> Many Decstations (3100, 5000/1xx and 5000/240/260s series even a 5100) > > >> many Vaxstations 3100s mostly > > >> Vax 4000 300? > > >> 5" DEC hard drives > > >> Many DEC mice > > >> Small Alphas > > >> Dec/HP CRT monitors > > >> HP ~1990s Unix workstations and parts > > >> Versatec CE3000 plotter (huge) > > >> test equipment (misc Tek scopes and plugins mainly) > > >> Symbolics 3645? (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back) > > >> HP 2115? mini > > >> PDP 11 > > >> Couple 3 KW UPSs with bad batterys > > >> SR22 calculator > > >> Altos 5 15 > > >> etc > > >> > > >> Would really like all to go to someone in the CC community who can take > all and sort/distribute themselves rather than cherry pick but that may be > optimistic... > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Peter Wallace > > >> > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Mesa Electronics > > > > (\__/) > > (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your > > (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. > > From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Mar 17 17:36:45 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:36:45 -0700 Subject: DEC items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul, Think you have me mixed up with someone else -Pete On Mar 17, 2017 3:15 PM, "Paul Anderson via cctalk" wrote: Hi Peter, Sounds like a nice collection. Which PDP11s do you have? Thanks, Paul From cramcram at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 17:47:23 2017 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:47:23 -0700 Subject: DEC items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter, Did you get my earlier message about the PDPs? I'm in the bay area as well. Marc Howard On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Peter C. Wallace via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 17 Mar 2017, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > > Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 17:15:42 -0500 >> From: Paul Anderson via cctalk >> Reply-To: Paul Anderson , >> "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> To: Peter C. Wallace via cctalk >> Subject: DEC items >> >> Hi Peter, >> >> Sounds like a nice collection. Which PDP11s do you have? >> > > Unfortunately its pretty buried. Its in one of those narrow vertical cases > and i dont think its a terribly desirable or fast one though ISTR that it > does have a A-D card installed > > Thanks, Paul >> >> > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your > (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. > > From will.pearse at usu.edu Sat Mar 18 18:28:22 2017 From: will.pearse at usu.edu (William Pearse) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 23:28:22 +0000 Subject: Extracting data from DEC VAX tape recordings Message-ID: Hello, I'm sorry to bother you, but I was hoping you might be able to help me with a problem I'm having getting hold of some scientific data that's currently stored on DEC VAX magnetic tape. A colleague of mine carried out some ecological fieldwork ~30 years ago, and her results are stored on eight magnetic tapes (two of 7" diameter, one 8.5", and five 10.25"). The data would be incredibly useful to look at, as the study was looking at how restored mines changes over time (the study is somewhat described here; https://www.jstor.org/stable/20038221?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents). If we could get these original data, we could compare how the mine is now with how it was then, which would be phenomenally useful to conservation biologists trying to conserve and restore damaged ecosystems. Do any of you have any ideas as to how I might get the data off this tape? I live and work in Utah (USA), but I would be willing to travel a little ways if it meant getting the things read off into a computer! Thanks again for your time, Will Pearse --- Need a phylogeny? Try phyloGenerator: original or new version Measuring phylogenetic structure? Try install.packages('pez') Will Pearse Assistant Professor of Biology, Utah State University Office: +1-435-797-0831 Skype: will.pearse From cube1 at charter.net Sat Mar 18 21:46:21 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 21:46:21 -0500 Subject: LINCtape/DECtape Head Alignment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16bfacda-2afc-9326-c14c-997af515550d@charter.net> Curious: How are you measuring the signal from the head? Do you have an honest to gosh differential probe, or are you using some other technique? (If you have a differential probe, then the TU56 manual indicates that you should see 10mv-12mv (the addition of the two paired heads together), so as a first guess I am guessing you are looking at the coils one at a time. The reason I ask is that the TU56 that I use most often has gotten a bit cranky over the years. Generally I can read and write, but I do typically see some errors - unacceptably many, and it *seems* that the longer the machine is on, it seems the more mark track errors I get when running the ZTCC?? diagnostic (test 3). I don't have a differential probe, and the A-B math function on my Rigol DS2072 scope is not anywhere near fast enough (though maybe a firmware patch which I have downloaded will help, but I doubt it will help because their is a lot of HF noise on the signals when measuring voltages this low). However, if I apply a 50KHz low pass filter on the signal on the scope, then sometimes I can see a 5mv per coil signal using an ordinary probe. I say sometimes because the scope seems to have some firmware problems so it isn't consistent in its behavior. (I have downloaded a firmware update that *might* help). I don't really doubt my heads at this point - certainly nothing is open - I can measure each coil at about 1.5 ohms (3.0 ohms across both), but it is something I would like to make sure I know how to do. Also, have you degaussed your heads? If so, how? I ask because some of my symptoms could point that way (I have yet, for example, to test with a tape, have it get worse, then go back with the machine "cold" and see if it gets better - and if it doesn't, that could point to demagnetized heads.) Thanks. JRJ On 12/26/2016 12:08 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The RICM is working on the skew adjustment on a TU56 tape drive on a > PDP-12. We only see a 5mV signal from the head, so when we flip the tape > over we will only see 1mV. This is below the capabilities of my 'scope. > > The DEC skew adjustment procedure talks about using a DEC amplifier to > boost the head signal to several volts. We are planning to make an > equivalent amplifier using a modern Op-amp. It would be really convenient > to have one of the Amphenol 133-022-03 connectors from a G851 Relay module > on our amplifier so it would plug directly into the head cable. > > Does anyone have a DEC G851 module that we could remove the connector from? > BCC: Original poster From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 19 10:04:05 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 15:04:05 +0000 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <45baaa0589524a0ba1e0e25197e885a6@livingcomputers.org> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca>, <45baaa0589524a0ba1e0e25197e885a6@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Rich Alderson via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 3:07 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys From: ben Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:28 PM > On 3/16/2017 5:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> From: Chuck Guzis >> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:08 PM >>> And people who weren't there can't understand why FORTRAN was the closest >>> thing to a "portable" language... >> Not even close to COBOL. :-) Preach it, brother! > But was FORTRAN that portable? Yes. > Other than the IBM 1130 I cannot think of a small computer that had ample I/O > and memory to run and compile FORTRAN. All the other 16 bitters seem to more > paper tape I/O. The PDP-8 family has compilers for both FORTRAN II and FORTRAN IV. 16 bits? What could we possibly do with all that address space? ;-) > I suspect 90% of all university computers ended up as IBM 360 systems. A few > ended up with the VAX, but who knows what they ran. FORTRAN. FORTRAN D (DOS/360), F and G (OS/360), which were FORTRAN IV compilers (retronamed "Fortran 66"). VAX/VMS Fortran 77, except most VAXen of the day you seem to be talking about ran BSD Unix and Fortran was handled by f2c. I learned FORTRAN IV on an IBM 1401, a decimal computer, before moving on to PL/1 and COBOL (and FORTRAN) on the System/360. FORTRAN was, and still is, widespread, even if it doesn't look anything like itself these days. ____________________________________________ That's because, unlike the COBOL Professionals, the Fortran people drank from the OO KoolAid. Oh, and my 1401 only did Autocoder. I didn't start using Fortran until my Univac-1100 days. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 19 10:14:23 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 11:14:23 -0400 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <45baaa0589524a0ba1e0e25197e885a6@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <24BCB957-A0EE-4FD4-A502-252126FDD339@comcast.net> > On Mar 19, 2017, at 11:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > ... > That's because, unlike the COBOL Professionals, the Fortran people drank from > the OO KoolAid. Speaking of OO and COBOL, a colleage of mine has a button with the text "ADD 1 TO COBOL". paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 11:06:06 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 11:06:06 -0500 Subject: CF cards as storage - wear leveling Message-ID: <91dd6ff7-6968-5f2b-a3ae-c735a9cd00ce@gmail.com> I just bought an IDE-CF adapter the other day with the intention of replacing the spinning rust in my disk imaging system (which is some early/mid-90s 80486-based thing). However, the CF entry on Wikipedia says: "Most CompactFlash flash-memory devices limit wear on blocks by varying the physical location to which a block is written. When using CompactFlash in ATA mode to take the place of the hard disk drive, wear leveling becomes critical because low-numbered blocks contain tables whose contents change frequently. Current CompactFlash cards spread the wear-leveling across the entire drive. The more advanced CompactFlash cards will move data that rarely changes to ensure all blocks wear evenly." ... I'm a little wary about the way it says "most CF cards", implying that there are some out there which don't do any wear-leveling at all. So, the obvious question: is there a way of knowing which cards are going to be good and which are useless as IDE replacements? Maybe by age, capacity, manufacturer? I'd prefer not to invest time into setting software up only to find that the card fails in a matter of weeks. cheers Jules From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 11:05:05 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 13:05:05 -0300 Subject: Looking for cassete basic rom code Message-ID: <5BA8BBFA7397418C82C9C9D8C7339679@deskjara> Dear friends Is it allowed to request a ROM code? I lost my XT BASIC ROMS, can someone send me the code so I can burn it and replace on my XT? Thanks! Alexandre --- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 19 11:36:53 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 09:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca>, <45baaa0589524a0ba1e0e25197e885a6@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: > > FORTRAN was, and still is, widespread, even if it doesn't look > > anything like itself these days. On Sun, 19 Mar 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > That's because, unlike the COBOL Professionals, the Fortran people drank > from the OO KoolAid. Yes, there does exist an Object Oriented COBOL! > Oh, and my 1401 only did Autocoder. I didn't start using Fortran until > my Univac-1100 days. There wasn't a Fortran compiler for the 1401, but how much did they charge for the FORTRAN compiler? From ats at offog.org Sun Mar 19 11:47:43 2017 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 16:47:43 +0000 Subject: Looking for cassete basic rom code In-Reply-To: <5BA8BBFA7397418C82C9C9D8C7339679@deskjara> (Alexandre Souza via cctalk's message of "Sun, 19 Mar 2017 13:05:05 -0300") References: <5BA8BBFA7397418C82C9C9D8C7339679@deskjara> Message-ID: Alexandre Souza via cctalk writes: > I lost my XT BASIC ROMS, can someone send me the code so I can burn it > and replace on my XT? minuszerodegrees.net has several versions of the XT ROM images, along with lots of other useful service information for PC/XT/AT machines: http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/bios/bios.htm -- Adam Sampson From rwiker at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 12:42:10 2017 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 18:42:10 +0100 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <24BCB957-A0EE-4FD4-A502-252126FDD339@comcast.net> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <45baaa0589524a0ba1e0e25197e885a6@livingcomputers.org> <24BCB957-A0EE-4FD4-A502-252126FDD339@comcast.net> Message-ID: <507E0049-2A79-48FF-A414-6C3A71F221E5@gmail.com> > On 19 Mar 2017, at 16:14 , Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Mar 19, 2017, at 11:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> That's because, unlike the COBOL Professionals, the Fortran people drank from >> the OO KoolAid. > > Speaking of OO and COBOL, a colleage of mine has a button with the text "ADD 1 TO COBOL". > > paul > Given that C++ is the object-oriented descendant of C, one might expect object-oriented COBOL to be named "ADD 1 TO COBOL". In my opinion, the object-oriented successor to COBOL is called Java - it's similarly verbose, and like COBOL, originally intended for average, fungible programmers. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 19 13:01:16 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 13:01:16 -0500 Subject: Extracting data from DEC VAX tape recordings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58CEC76C.4080303@pico-systems.com> On 03/18/2017 06:28 PM, William Pearse via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > > I'm sorry to bother you, but I was hoping you might be able to help me with a problem I'm having getting hold of some scientific data that's currently stored on DEC VAX magnetic tape. > > > A colleague of mine carried out some ecological fieldwork ~30 years ago, and her results are stored on eight magnetic tapes (two of 7" diameter, one 8.5", and five 10.25"). The data would be incredibly useful to look at, as the study was looking at how restored mines changes over time (the study is somewhat described here; https://www.jstor.org/stable/20038221?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents). If we could get these original data, we could compare how the mine is now with how it was then, which would be phenomenally useful to conservation biologists trying to conserve and restore damaged ecosystems. > > > Do any of you have any ideas as to how I might get the data off this tape? I live and work in Utah (USA), but I would be willing to travel a little ways if it meant getting the things read off into a computer! > > > I have a rather crude way of reading 9-track tapes in 1600 and 6250 BPI densities. I have worked out how to unpack VAX BACKUP format tapes, if that is how they were written. I have read some tapes that were about this old, but they have been stored in excellent conditions, and they were high-quality tapes. Some tapes that were of lesser quality or stored in poor conditions may not be recoverable. Some other people have a lot of experience with baking the tapes at low temperature to improve the chances of good data recovery, you you might see if they want to do it, first. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 19 13:08:15 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 13:08:15 -0500 Subject: CF cards as storage - wear leveling In-Reply-To: <91dd6ff7-6968-5f2b-a3ae-c735a9cd00ce@gmail.com> References: <91dd6ff7-6968-5f2b-a3ae-c735a9cd00ce@gmail.com> Message-ID: <58CEC90F.6010303@pico-systems.com> On 03/19/2017 11:06 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > I just bought an IDE-CF adapter the other day with the > intention of replacing the spinning rust in my disk > imaging system (which is some early/mid-90s 80486-based > thing). > > However, the CF entry on Wikipedia says: > > "Most CompactFlash flash-memory devices limit wear on > blocks by varying the physical location to which a block > is written. When using CompactFlash in ATA mode to take > the place of the hard disk drive, wear leveling becomes > critical because low-numbered blocks contain tables whose > contents change frequently. Current CompactFlash cards > spread the wear-leveling across the entire drive. The more > advanced CompactFlash cards will move data that rarely > changes to ensure all blocks wear evenly." > > ... I'm a little wary about the way it says "most CF > cards", implying that there are some out there which don't > do any wear-leveling at all. So, the obvious question: is > there a way of knowing which cards are going to be good > and which are useless as IDE replacements? Maybe by age, > capacity, manufacturer? I'd prefer not to invest time into > setting software up only to find that the card fails in a > matter of weeks. > I have several systems that have the old Beagle Board computer in them. They are not run continuously, but have been run for months at a time. These use regular-size SD cards as the "disk" for a Linux OS. I did set the noatime flag on the file system. They are still running on the original SD cards. I have a Beagle Bone running LinuxCNC under a Debian-based distro, and I fire it up at various times to text boards I make, and it is still running the original micro-SD card. I don't think anybody is actually using real CF cards anymore, they are about a decade out of date. Jon From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Mar 19 13:20:45 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 12:20:45 -0600 Subject: CF cards as storage - wear leveling In-Reply-To: <91dd6ff7-6968-5f2b-a3ae-c735a9cd00ce@gmail.com> References: <91dd6ff7-6968-5f2b-a3ae-c735a9cd00ce@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 10:06 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > I just bought an IDE-CF adapter the other day with the intention of > replacing the spinning rust in my disk imaging system (which is some > early/mid-90s 80486-based thing). > > However, the CF entry on Wikipedia says: > > "Most CompactFlash flash-memory devices limit wear on blocks by varying the > physical location to which a block is written. When using CompactFlash in > ATA mode to take the place of the hard disk drive, wear leveling becomes > critical because low-numbered blocks contain tables whose contents change > frequently. Current CompactFlash cards spread the wear-leveling across the > entire drive. The more advanced CompactFlash cards will move data that > rarely changes to ensure all blocks wear evenly." > > ... I'm a little wary about the way it says "most CF cards", implying that > there are some out there which don't do any wear-leveling at all. So, the > obvious question: is there a way of knowing which cards are going to be good > and which are useless as IDE replacements? Maybe by age, capacity, > manufacturer? I'd prefer not to invest time into setting software up only to > find that the card fails in a matter of weeks. Just about ANY CF card you buy today new will have wear leveling. It's almost impossible without trying to be an ass to the card to have it fail in a few weeks. I've run 64MB cards in Soekris boxes for a decade w/o any problems. The key, as with all flash purchases, is to buy the best, fastest you can rather than the cheapest you can. But most unix systems can do many things to mitigate wear. There's dozens of tutorials about mounting noatime (to keep access times from being updated), to more advanced features like putting /var/tmp and friends on memory disks, etc. With a 486, though, that might not be an option. Not sure what kind of system you are migrating though... CF cards tend to be much more compatible with systems than SD card adapters, but on extremely old system can be picky even with CF cards. I had a system back in the day not present the CF card as a bootable device because something in its ID string was a bit wonky to it. SD cards tend to be crap too without careful selection (which usually means getting a couple of the faster cards and hoping that at least one of them is good). These days, it's more a precaution than an actual requirement though, but see below. For $40 you can get a 32GB Lexar Professional that boasts 1066x speed and UDMA7. You'll likely not do UDMA at all in a system of that age. DMA is another area where you have to buy the right CF card (though it's hard to buy the wrong kind new, random used stuff is a crap shoot whether all the pins needed for UDMA are present). If you have problems, try setting the to PIO. Seems like overkill. If you are looking for a smaller card because the BIOS just can't cope with anything that big, you'll need to buy the professional grade used cards, though that too is a crap shoot (so buy several). If you have a reasonable sized system (say 2GB) the way you cope with failure is to backup an image every so often with DD and just blast it out to a new card if the one you get fails. But if you do that, the size has to be >= the old one. And with a 486, you likely don't have an LBA BIOS, so you need to make sure the geometry matches which can be tricky. The geometry reported by CF<->USB adapters will almost certainly be different than what the CF<->IDE adapter reports. So good luck! Warner From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 19 13:36:31 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 11:36:31 -0700 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <45baaa0589524a0ba1e0e25197e885a6@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <994b9d95-a4ee-c23e-178d-6c47bd6a697a@sydex.com> On 03/19/2017 08:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > FORTRAN. FORTRAN D (DOS/360), F and G (OS/360), which were FORTRAN > IV compilers (retronamed "Fortran 66"). VAX/VMS Fortran 77, except > most VAXen of the day you seem to be talking about ran BSD Unix and > Fortran was handled by f2c. > > I learned FORTRAN IV on an IBM 1401, a decimal computer, before > moving on to PL/1 and COBOL (and FORTRAN) on the System/360. There was another FORTRAN 66 available fro the S/360, but you usually saw it on the lower models (25, 30, 40). It was called "Basic FORTRAN IV" or sometimes "USA Basic FORTRAN". There doesn't seem to be a manual in S/360 section for this on bitsavers. I recall that it was a slim little packet. It was brutal--basic INTEGER, REAL and DOUBLE PRECISION data declarations; blank COMMON only; arithmetic IF only, computed and unconditional GO TO--and the bugbear of many programmers: strict enforcement of "mixed mode" prohibitions. File I/O was reasonable, I suppose. A maximum of 6 characters in a variable name, stuff like that. Better than some of the stripped-down FORTRAN II versions, which often didn't even include type declarations. FORTRAN IV was a step forward--vendor "extensions" of FORTRAN II were getting out of hand--contrast some of the conventions of, say, 7090 FMS II/IBSYS fORTRAN with other vendors. For example, punching a 'B" in column 1 indicated a "logical/Boolean" expression and so on... Still, vendors kept extending their FORTRAN IVs. I think I remarked on a CDC syntactic extension that resulted in the ability to write an ambiguous statement, with no clear way to resolve the meaning. I believe that Univac, at one point, boasted an 1100 "FORTRAN V". That's chutzpah for you. "FORTRAN VI", of course, was PL/I. F77 tightened that up and brought out the notion of having to flag any non-ANSI syntax. F90 was clear in that vendor extensions were to be disabled by default; i.e., the user must explicitly enable them. F90 was, to me, the point of departure. Many statement types were deprecated; since the world was no longer coding on cards, free-format input was standardized. Extensions for high-end supercomputers were codified, etc. Reserved words made their appearance--in previous versions, the notion of "whitespace" was introduced. It was perfectly legitimate to name a variable "FORMAT" or "REAL" and write it as "F OR M AT", though I suspect that few ever did. The Fortran of today resembles FORTRAN II in the same way that COBOL 2014 resembles IBM COMTRAN. But, mutatis mutandis, Fortran/FORTRAN still lives. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 19 13:42:10 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 11:42:10 -0700 Subject: CF cards as storage - wear leveling In-Reply-To: References: <91dd6ff7-6968-5f2b-a3ae-c735a9cd00ce@gmail.com> Message-ID: <377716d9-4cec-fe44-690e-f2b3cb1c48c8@sydex.com> On 03/19/2017 11:20 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Just about ANY CF card you buy today new will have wear leveling. > It's almost impossible without trying to be an ass to the card to > have it fail in a few weeks. I've run 64MB cards in Soekris boxes for > a decade w/o any problems. The key, as with all flash purchases, is > to buy the best, fastest you can rather than the cheapest you can. > But most unix systems can do many things to mitigate wear. There's > dozens of tutorials about mounting noatime (to keep access times from > being updated), to more advanced features like putting /var/tmp and > friends on memory disks, etc. With a 486, though, that might not be > an option. Not sure what kind of system you are migrating though... If you're worried about write wear on a CF card and can do with higher power consumption and somewhat slower speed, use one of the "Microdrives" offered by IBM, Hitachi or Seagate in past years. I believe that capacity of 12GB may be the upper limit. They're comparatively inexpensive, as NOS items. I ran a 5GB Seagate drive for about 5 years 24/7 in a mailserver with no issues. --Chuck From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Mar 19 13:44:22 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 18:44:22 +0000 (WET) Subject: CF cards as storage - wear leveling In-Reply-To: <58CEC90F.6010303@pico-systems.com> References: <91dd6ff7-6968-5f2b-a3ae-c735a9cd00ce@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01QC62HU0JJE00159O@beyondthepale.ie> > > I don't think anybody is actually using real CF cards > anymore, they are about a decade out of date. > > Jon > Jon, This is the list where we discuss using stuff that's a decade and more out of date. (I've got a large box of real 16MB CF cards that I got for nothing on freecycle that I keep meaning to dream up a use for...) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From drb at msu.edu Sun Mar 19 14:01:19 2017 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 15:01:19 -0400 Subject: Extracting data from DEC VAX tape recordings In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 19 Mar 2017 13:01:16 -0500.) <58CEC76C.4080303@pico-systems.com> References: <58CEC76C.4080303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20170319190119.6233EA5857B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I have a rather crude way of reading 9-track tapes in 1600 and 6250 > BPI densities. I have worked out how to unpack VAX BACKUP format > tapes, if that is how they were written. I have read some tapes that > were about this old, but they have been stored in excellent > conditions, and they were high-quality tapes. Some tapes that were > of lesser quality or stored in poor conditions may not be > recoverable. 9-track tape is remarkably resilient. I've successfully read tapes that were stored in an uncontrolled Michigan attic for 20+ years. VMS Backup format isn't that hard to deal with: there are at least one or two open source tools which can read most save sets, and feeding an image to an actual VMS system in emulation is easy too. The worst threat is the "sticky shed" issue, wherein the binder which holds the coatings onto the tape backing absorbs moisture and gets gooey. A number of approaches have been described in the literature, from mechanically removing the back coating applied to some media to reduce static and other issues, to chemical applications, to baking out the moisture. > Some other people have a lot of experience with baking the tapes at > low temperature to improve the chances of good data recovery, you you > might see if they want to do it, first. I've had good luck with the lowest of tech solutions: a food dehydrator. Many libraries have used convection ovens. Target temperature seems to be in the neighborhood of 130-140 degrees. I've seen recommendations for 2-4 hours, but I seem to have better luck with 24. De From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 19 14:36:57 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 15:36:57 -0400 Subject: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <994b9d95-a4ee-c23e-178d-6c47bd6a697a@sydex.com> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <45baaa0589524a0ba1e0e25197e885a6@livingcomputers.org> <994b9d95-a4ee-c23e-178d-6c47bd6a697a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5F7A94E3-6735-47F4-9A5B-F8FD9C49CA91@comcast.net> > On Mar 19, 2017, at 2:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Still, vendors kept extending their FORTRAN IVs. I think I remarked on > a CDC syntactic extension that resulted in the ability to write an > ambiguous statement, with no clear way to resolve the meaning. I'm reminded of a T-shirt sold while I was in college (mid 1970s) with this text: (.)(.) IKF4084I I looked that up in Messages and Codes, found a pointer to the IBM COBOL messages manual, where I found this message text: "Questionable use of parentheses accepted with doubts as to meaning". So I think CDC was not alone in that bad practice. paul From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Mar 19 14:59:15 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 12:59:15 -0700 Subject: 8085 RESET In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2017-Mar-18, at 5:21 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > 8085-based phone system weirdness continues and I'm beginning to wonder if > the PSU rails are all coming up in time for RESET to go high - given there's > 4116 DRAMs in there isn't there supposed to be a proper power up order? > > While I look at using a 20-pin ATX PSU to run this machine temporarily I > need a safe way to reset the CPU rather than constantly power cycling. The > RESET line comes from an ICL7611 op-amp via an MC14081B through pins 1-4 of > a 74LS04 and I need to pull it low for longer than 3 clock cycles. > > I wish I had a schematic to show! Recalling the messages from December, it looked like proper operation of the reset circuitry at power-up expected the presence of the battery to power the reset circuitry with 12V prior to the 5V bus coming up. It looks like you could add a reset switch to the unit by paralleling R406 (11K) with a NO pushbutton switch and ~ 4.7 uF cap (all 3 in parallel). Closing the pushbutton switch simulates the absence of 5V. The cap provides a little debounce delay, but may not even be necessary. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 15:22:27 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 16:22:27 -0400 Subject: Looking for cassete basic rom code In-Reply-To: References: <5BA8BBFA7397418C82C9C9D8C7339679@deskjara> Message-ID: On Mar 19, 2017 12:47 PM, "Adam Sampson via cctalk" wrote: > > Alexandre Souza via cctalk writes: > > > I lost my XT BASIC ROMS, can someone send me the code so I can burn it > > and replace on my XT? > > minuszerodegrees.net has several versions of the XT ROM images, along > with lots of other useful service information for PC/XT/AT machines: > > http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/bios/bios.htm > > -- > Adam Sampson Has anyone made a ROM that runs BASIC and allows use of the disk drive to save on an IBM PC? This always bugged me that if you forgot to insert your dos disk before the computer powered up that one could not enter a basic command to tell the system to boot up from the drive without ctrl-alt-delete and wait....or to boot from the b drive, etc. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Mar 19 16:07:17 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 17:07:17 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> <3ae3cb89-9452-274e-3c8e-a7703c94d094@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2017-03-17 3:19 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 11:27 AM > >> On 03/17/2017 11:09 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> and, although we don't know when YOU were playing it, the march had >>> been around half a century, so was probably playing on the radio to >>> inspire Backus. Does that mean that Dan. might be right about it >>> being the predecessor to FORTRAN? > >> Valdres March has been around for more than a century--it's at least 113 >> years old. > >> So FORTRAN has some catching up to do. > >> It wasn't until the microcomputer era with BASIC, I think that FORTRAN >> wasn't the first HLL to be contemplated for a new architecture. > > > "I don't know what the language of the year 2000 will look like, but I know > it will be called Fortran." > > --Tony Hoare, winner of the 1980 Turing Award, > in 1982. > Depressingly prescient... --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Mar 19 16:14:04 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 17:14:04 -0400 Subject: Portability of Fortran - was Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <55da3360-9b08-f355-71e6-7c86d86763d4@sydex.com> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> <3ae3cb89-9452-274e-3c8e-a7703c94d094@sydex.com> <55da3360-9b08-f355-71e6-7c86d86763d4@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2017-03-17 2:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 03/17/2017 11:41 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Not quite true. ALGOL was the first choice for a couple of >> architectures: Electrologica X8, and the Burroughs 48-bit mainframes. >> And I supposed you could claim that status for Bliss in the case of >> VAXen, though in a different sense there was a whole set of high >> level languages that were there day 1 because the architecture >> envisioned all of them (and any combination of them). > > Well, okay--the European-American divide must be taken into account--and > the Burroughs B5000 architecture was sui generis. > > But by and large, FORTRAN, at least in North America, was the first > language of choice in implementation--after assembly, if one can call > assembly a language--many would call it "symbolic coding"; using symbols > instead of numeric addresses. > > --Chuck > > > > I came across a typical example of how Fortran was used as lingua franca, just yesterday, in a book titled "Knapsack Problems - Algorithms and Computer Implementations" (Silvano Martello, Paolo Toth), published 1990. The Preface includes the words: "The Fortran codes implementing the most effective methods are provided in the included diskette. The codes are portable on virtually any computer, extensively commented and---hopefully---easy to use." --Toby From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 16:39:34 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 16:39:34 -0500 Subject: LGP-30 Update Message-ID: Hey guys, figured it was time for an update on the LGP-30 resuscitation. Some further detective work found a leaky 1500uF cap in one of the B+ supplies which was causing the 'surging' issue on the scope. For good measure I replaced all six 1500 and 3000uF caps even though ripple was low. Better safe than sorry and if it means pulling that chassis and its covers again, all the better. I attempted to weigh it on my shipping scale, but it only registers to 100 lbs and the indicator flew right past that. There had been a small thermal event in the AC junction box that the twist lock connector mounts to, and I suspect it occurred pre-60's refurb. It's not too surprising as the wiring on the computer side is aluminum and the feed is copper. The box needed replacing but was a unique Hubbell variation of a std 4" box with special ears. I couldn't find anything even close to that at any of the supply houses online, probably because it violates today's conductor fill rules (it's only 1" deep but the socket consumes most of that depth and 75% of the area). I eventually settled on drilling/tapping a standard box and cleaned up the wiring. The sequencer unit is now working correctly after I found an NOS relay to R&R contacts with. The blower is still steady and quiet with its new bearings, and no issues (knock on wood) with the drum after greasing the end bearing, belt and 'tightening' up the tolerances on the timing and short register heads. Some good news- I now have three horizontal lines on the scope, rock solid and where they should be. I can get the occasional pattern for Instruction contents, but Order and Accumulator still aren't reading/writing/displaying. All in good time. http://radar58.com/LGP30/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/lgp.jpg Even better news is that the three timing tracks appear to be intact on the drum and the supporting hardware is working. http://radar58.com/LGP30/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/scope-e1489957963176.jpg (1, 2 and 3 correspond to S1, S2 and S3) Now to investigate those short registers... -Cory From w2hx at w2hx.com Sun Mar 19 17:33:17 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 15:33:17 -0700 Subject: LGP-30 Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Impressive progress! Well done! 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2017 5:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: LGP-30 Update Hey guys, figured it was time for an update on the LGP-30 resuscitation. Some further detective work found a leaky 1500uF cap in one of the B+ supplies which was causing the 'surging' issue on the scope. For good measure I replaced all six 1500 and 3000uF caps even though ripple was low. Better safe than sorry and if it means pulling that chassis and its covers again, all the better. I attempted to weigh it on my shipping scale, but it only registers to 100 lbs and the indicator flew right past that. There had been a small thermal event in the AC junction box that the twist lock connector mounts to, and I suspect it occurred pre-60's refurb. It's not too surprising as the wiring on the computer side is aluminum and the feed is copper. The box needed replacing but was a unique Hubbell variation of a std 4" box with special ears. I couldn't find anything even close to that at any of the supply houses online, probably because it violates today's conductor fill rules (it's only 1" deep but the socket consumes most of that depth and 75% of the area). I eventually settled on drilling/tapping a standard box and cleaned up the wiring. The sequencer unit is now working correctly after I found an NOS relay to R&R contacts with. The blower is still steady and quiet with its new bearings, and no issues (knock on wood) with the drum after greasing the end bearing, belt and 'tightening' up the tolerances on the timing and short register heads. Some good news- I now have three horizontal lines on the scope, rock solid and where they should be. I can get the occasional pattern for Instruction contents, but Order and Accumulator still aren't reading/writing/displaying. All in good time. http://radar58.com/LGP30/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/lgp.jpg Even better news is that the three timing tracks appear to be intact on the drum and the supporting hardware is working. http://radar58.com/LGP30/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/scope-e1489957963176.jpg (1, 2 and 3 correspond to S1, S2 and S3) Now to investigate those short registers... -Cory From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 19 17:34:44 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 15:34:44 -0700 Subject: Portability of Fortran - was Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <765d682d-cfc1-deed-e345-015c4c01b0a9@sydex.com> <9231cf00-fe35-af1d-1641-fc11c681ceff@sydex.com> <3ae3cb89-9452-274e-3c8e-a7703c94d094@sydex.com> <55da3360-9b08-f355-71e6-7c86d86763d4@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6cd4939a-dd4f-8fac-4e80-678a15a02440@sydex.com> On 03/19/2017 02:14 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > "The Fortran codes implementing the most effective methods are > provided in the included diskette. The codes are portable on virtually > any computer, extensively commented and---hopefully---easy to use." Take a look at early ACM CALGO (collected algorithms). Algorithm 1 dates from 1960 and is in Algol; indeed all of Volume I and a good part of Volume II are exclusively Algol. You don't hit FORTRAN until about 1968 (somewhere around Algorithm 330). After that, you'll see pages and pages of FORTRAN. I do think that Algol is far more elegant for describing algorithms than FORTRAN; but the sad fact is that many (US-based) programmers didn't speak Algol. --Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Mar 19 18:01:56 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 23:01:56 +0000 Subject: 8085 RESET In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19/03/2017 19:59, "cctalk" wrote: > On 2017-Mar-18, at 5:21 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> >> 8085-based phone system weirdness continues and I'm beginning to wonder if >> the PSU rails are all coming up in time for RESET to go high - given there's >> 4116 DRAMs in there isn't there supposed to be a proper power up order? >> >> While I look at using a 20-pin ATX PSU to run this machine temporarily I >> need a safe way to reset the CPU rather than constantly power cycling. The >> RESET line comes from an ICL7611 op-amp via an MC14081B through pins 1-4 of >> a 74LS04 and I need to pull it low for longer than 3 clock cycles. >> >> I wish I had a schematic to show! > > Recalling the messages from December, it looked like proper operation of the > reset circuitry at power-up > expected the presence of the battery to power the reset circuitry with 12V > prior to the 5V bus coming up. > > It looks like you could add a reset switch to the unit by paralleling R406 > (11K) with a NO pushbutton switch and ~ 4.7 uF cap (all 3 in parallel). > Closing the pushbutton switch simulates the absence of 5V. The cap provides a > little debounce delay, but may not even be necessary. I've just checked the image you're referring to and the resistor numbers are offset so it looks like R406 is the top one of three where it's actually the middle one. Here's an up-to-date version: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelResetOpamp.jpg Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 18:30:06 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 19:30:06 -0400 Subject: LGP-30 Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > http://radar58.com/LGP30/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/lgp.jpg > > Even better news is that the three timing tracks appear to be intact on > the drum and the supporting hardware is working. > > http://radar58.com/LGP30/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/scope- > e1489957963176.jpg > (1, 2 and 3 correspond to S1, S2 and S3) > > Now to investigate those short registers... -Cory > > great news! Bill From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Mar 19 18:48:48 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 16:48:48 -0700 Subject: 8085 RESET In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2017-Mar-19, at 4:01 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > On 19/03/2017 19:59, bhilpert wrote: >> On 2017-Mar-18, at 5:21 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> 8085-based phone system weirdness continues and I'm beginning to wonder if >>> the PSU rails are all coming up in time for RESET to go high - given there's >>> 4116 DRAMs in there isn't there supposed to be a proper power up order? >>> >>> While I look at using a 20-pin ATX PSU to run this machine temporarily I >>> need a safe way to reset the CPU rather than constantly power cycling. The >>> RESET line comes from an ICL7611 op-amp via an MC14081B through pins 1-4 of >>> a 74LS04 and I need to pull it low for longer than 3 clock cycles. >>> >>> I wish I had a schematic to show! >> >> Recalling the messages from December, it looked like proper operation of the >> reset circuitry at power-up >> expected the presence of the battery to power the reset circuitry with 12V >> prior to the 5V bus coming up. >> >> It looks like you could add a reset switch to the unit by paralleling R406 >> (11K) with a NO pushbutton switch and ~ 4.7 uF cap (all 3 in parallel). >> Closing the pushbutton switch simulates the absence of 5V. The cap provides a >> little debounce delay, but may not even be necessary. > > I've just checked the image you're referring to and the resistor numbers are > offset so it looks like R406 is the top one of three where it's actually the > middle one. Here's an up-to-date version: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelResetOpamp.jpg Yes, I did notice that in viewing, so it remains R406 / 11K / the one going to ground, to parallel with a switch. From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Mar 19 19:57:25 2017 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 00:57:25 +0000 Subject: MUMPS in the news Message-ID: http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/03/vista-computer-history-va-conspiracy-000367 From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 20:44:25 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 18:44:25 -0700 Subject: LGP-30 Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sweet! Marc > On Mar 19, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > > Hey guys, figured it was time for an update on the LGP-30 resuscitation. > > Some further detective work found a leaky 1500uF cap in one of the B+ supplies which was causing the 'surging' issue on the scope. For good measure I replaced all six 1500 and 3000uF caps even though ripple was low. Better safe than sorry and if it means pulling that chassis and its covers again, all the better. I attempted to weigh it on my shipping scale, but it only registers to 100 lbs and the indicator flew right past that. > > There had been a small thermal event in the AC junction box that the twist lock connector mounts to, and I suspect it occurred pre-60's refurb. It's not too surprising as the wiring on the computer side is aluminum and the feed is copper. The box needed replacing but was a unique Hubbell variation of a std 4" box with special ears. I couldn't find anything even close to that at any of the supply houses online, probably because it violates today's conductor fill rules (it's only 1" deep but the socket consumes most of that depth and 75% of the area). I eventually settled on drilling/tapping a standard box and cleaned up the wiring. > > The sequencer unit is now working correctly after I found an NOS relay to R&R contacts with. The blower is still steady and quiet with its new bearings, and no issues (knock on wood) with the drum after greasing the end bearing, belt and 'tightening' up the tolerances on the timing and short register heads. > > Some good news- I now have three horizontal lines on the scope, rock solid and where they should be. I can get the occasional pattern for Instruction contents, but Order and Accumulator still aren't reading/writing/displaying. All in good time. > > http://radar58.com/LGP30/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/lgp.jpg > > Even better news is that the three timing tracks appear to be intact on the drum and the supporting hardware is working. > > http://radar58.com/LGP30/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/scope-e1489957963176.jpg > (1, 2 and 3 correspond to S1, S2 and S3) > > Now to investigate those short registers... -Cory From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 13:07:26 2017 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 14:07:26 -0400 Subject: LINCtape/DECtape Head Alignment Message-ID: > > Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 21:46:21 -0500 > From: Jay Jaeger > Subject: Re: LINCtape/DECtape Head Alignment > > Curious: How are you measuring the signal from the head? Do you have > an honest to gosh differential probe, or are you using some other > technique? (If you have a differential probe, then the TU56 manual > indicates that you should see 10mv-12mv (the addition of the two paired > heads together), so as a first guess I am guessing you are looking at > the coils one at a time. > > The reason I ask is that the TU56 that I use most often has gotten a bit > cranky over the years. Generally I can read and write, but I do > typically see some errors - unacceptably many, and it *seems* that the > longer the machine is on, it seems the more mark track errors I get when > running the ZTCC?? diagnostic (test 3). > > I don't have a differential probe, and the A-B math function on my Rigol > DS2072 scope is not anywhere near fast enough (though maybe a firmware > patch which I have downloaded will help, but I doubt it will help > because their is a lot of HF noise on the signals when measuring > voltages this low). However, if I apply a 50KHz low pass filter on the > signal on the scope, then sometimes I can see a 5mv per coil signal > using an ordinary probe. I say sometimes because the scope seems to > have some firmware problems so it isn't consistent in its behavior. (I > have downloaded a firmware update that *might* help). > > I don't really doubt my heads at this point - certainly nothing is open > - I can measure each coil at about 1.5 ohms (3.0 ohms across both), but > it is something I would like to make sure I know how to do. > > Also, have you degaussed your heads? If so, how? I ask because some of > my symptoms could point that way (I have yet, for example, to test with > a tape, have it get worse, then go back with the machine "cold" and see > if it gets better - and if it doesn't, that could point to demagnetized > heads.) > > Thanks. > > JRJ > We used the procedure in the TU56 maintenance manual, and used two G888 modules to make the equivalent of the G500 described in the manual. The G888 modules really cleanup the high frequency noise mixed with the head signals. -- Michael Thompson From earl at retrobits.com Sun Mar 19 13:26:37 2017 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 11:26:37 -0700 Subject: CF cards as storage - wear leveling In-Reply-To: <58CEC90F.6010303@pico-systems.com> References: <91dd6ff7-6968-5f2b-a3ae-c735a9cd00ce@gmail.com> <58CEC90F.6010303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > > > I don't think anybody is actually using real CF cards anymore, they are > about a decade out of date. > > ?Well, a few of us are still using them for 8-bit hard drive emulators. Examples include the XT-CF Lite for PC compatibles with ISA slots (which I use), and the CFFA3000 for the Apple II. I do keep backups though, and luckily I've got a small stash of CF cards, so if they die, oh well. - Earl ? From tingox at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 16:37:32 2017 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 22:37:32 +0100 Subject: Dore' on FreeBSD today Message-ID: FWIW, Dore'[1] doesn't compile out of the box on FreeBSD 10.3-stable: tingo at kg-core1$ uname -a FreeBSD kg-core1.kg4.no 10.3-STABLE FreeBSD 10.3-STABLE #0 r310083: Wed Dec 14 21:00:13 CET 2016 root at kg-core1.kg4.no:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64 Result tingo at kg-core1$ make -f Makefile.ini World Building Release 6.1 of Dore. I hope you checked the configuration parameters in ./config/cf to see if you need to pass BOOTSTRAPCFLAGS. Sun Mar 19 22:31:44 CET 2017 cd ./config/imake; make -f Makefile.ini BOOTSTRAPCFLAGS="" clean; make -f Makefile.ini BOOTSTRAPCFLAGS="" rm -f ccimake imake.o imake rm -f *.CKP *.ln *.BAK *.bak *.o core errs ,* *~ *.a tags TAGS make.log \#* making imake with BOOTSTRAPCFLAGS= cc -o ccimake -O -I../../include ccimake.c ccimake.c:42:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] main() ^~~~ ccimake.c:44:2: warning: implicit declaration of function 'write' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] write(1, imake_ccflags, sizeof(imake_ccflags) - 1); ^ ccimake.c:45:2: warning: implicitly declaring library function 'exit' with type 'void (int) __attribute__((noreturn))' exit(0); ^ ccimake.c:45:2: note: please include the header or explicitly provide a declaration for 'exit' 3 warnings generated. cc -c -O -I../../include `./ccimake` imake.c imake.c:265:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] main(argc, argv) ^~~~ imake.c:274:2: warning: implicit declaration of function 'init' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] init(); ^ imake.c:275:2: warning: implicit declaration of function 'SetOpts' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] SetOpts(argc, argv); ^ imake.c:278:2: warning: implicit declaration of function 'CheckImakefileC' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] CheckImakefileC(ImakefileC); ^ imake.c:285:2: warning: implicit declaration of function 'AddMakeArg' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] AddMakeArg("-f"); ^ imake.c:296:2: warning: implicit declaration of function 'cppit' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] cppit(cleanedImakefile, Template, ImakefileC, tmpfd, tmpMakefile); ^ imake.c:300:4: warning: implicit declaration of function 'showit' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] showit(tmpfd); ^ imake.c:302:3: warning: implicit declaration of function 'makeit' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] makeit(); ^ imake.c:303:2: warning: implicit declaration of function 'wrapup' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] wrapup(); ^ imake.c:307:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] showit(fd) ^~~~~~ imake.c:315:3: warning: implicit declaration of function 'writetmpfile' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] writetmpfile(stdout, buf, red, "stdout"); ^ imake.c:318:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ imake.c:320:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] wrapup() ^~~~~~ imake.c:328:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ imake.c:345:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] init() ^~~~ imake.c:361:8: warning: using the result of an assignment as a condition without parentheses [-Wparentheses] if (p = getenv("IMAKEINCLUDE")) { ~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ imake.c:361:8: note: place parentheses around the assignment to silence this warning if (p = getenv("IMAKEINCLUDE")) { ^ ( ) imake.c:361:8: note: use '==' to turn this assignment into an equality comparison if (p = getenv("IMAKEINCLUDE")) { ^ == imake.c:365:3: warning: implicit declaration of function 'AddCppArg' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] AddCppArg(p); ^ imake.c:372:8: warning: using the result of an assignment as a condition without parentheses [-Wparentheses] if (p = getenv("IMAKECPP")) ~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ imake.c:372:8: note: place parentheses around the assignment to silence this warning if (p = getenv("IMAKECPP")) ^ ( ) imake.c:372:8: note: use '==' to turn this assignment into an equality comparison if (p = getenv("IMAKECPP")) ^ == imake.c:374:8: warning: using the result of an assignment as a condition without parentheses [-Wparentheses] if (p = getenv("IMAKEMAKE")) ~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ imake.c:374:8: note: place parentheses around the assignment to silence this warning if (p = getenv("IMAKEMAKE")) ^ ( ) imake.c:374:8: note: use '==' to turn this assignment into an equality comparison if (p = getenv("IMAKEMAKE")) ^ == imake.c:379:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ imake.c:381:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] AddMakeArg(arg) ^~~~~~~~~~ imake.c:389:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ imake.c:391:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] AddCppArg(arg) ^~~~~~~~~ imake.c:399:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ imake.c:401:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] SetOpts(argc, argv) ^~~~~~~ imake.c:479:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ imake.c:505:14: warning: cast to 'char *' from smaller integer type 'int' [-Wint-to-pointer-cast] LogFatal(s, (char *)i); ^ imake.c:527:27: warning: implicitly declaring library function 'strerror' with type 'char *(int)' fprintf(stderr, "%s: ", strerror(errno)); ^ imake.c:527:27: note: please include the header or explicitly provide a declaration for 'strerror' imake.c:538:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] showargs(argv) ^~~~~~~~ imake.c:544:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ imake.c:550:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] CheckImakefileC(masterc) ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ imake.c:561:8: warning: implicitly declaring library function 'strncmp' with type 'int (const char *, const char *, unsigned long)' strncmp(mkcbuf, TmplDef, sizeof(TmplDef)-1)) || ^ imake.c:561:8: note: please include the header or explicitly provide a declaration for 'strncmp' imake.c:573:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ imake.c:575:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] cppit(imakefile, template, masterc, outfd, outfname) ^~~~~ imake.c:626:2: warning: implicit declaration of function 'CleanCppOutput' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] CleanCppOutput(outfd, outfname); ^ imake.c:627:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ imake.c:629:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] makeit() ^~~~~~ imake.c:662:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ imake.c:706:7: warning: implicitly declaring library function 'strcmp' with type 'int (const char *, const char *)' if (strcmp(ptoken, "define") && ^ imake.c:706:7: note: please include the header or explicitly provide a declaration for 'strcmp' imake.c:747:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] CleanCppOutput(tmpfd, tmpfname) ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~ imake.c:754:14: warning: using the result of an assignment as a condition without parentheses [-Wparentheses] while(input = ReadLine(tmpfd, tmpfname)) { ~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ imake.c:754:14: note: place parentheses around the assignment to silence this warning while(input = ReadLine(tmpfd, tmpfname)) { ^ ( ) imake.c:754:14: note: use '==' to turn this assignment into an equality comparison while(input = ReadLine(tmpfd, tmpfname)) { ^ == imake.c:755:7: warning: implicit declaration of function 'isempty' is invalid in C99 [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] if (isempty(input)) { ^ imake.c:762:31: warning: implicitly declaring library function 'strlen' with type 'unsigned long (const char *)' writetmpfile(tmpfd, input, strlen(input), tmpfname); ^ imake.c:762:31: note: please include the header or explicitly provide a declaration for 'strlen' imake.c:775:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ imake.c:782:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] isempty(line) ^~~~~~~ imake.c:819:7: warning: implicitly declaring library function 'strcpy' with type 'char *(char *, const char *)' strcpy(pend+1, pend+5); ^ imake.c:819:7: note: please include the header or explicitly provide a declaration for 'strcpy' imake.c:915:1: warning: type specifier missing, defaults to 'int' [-Wimplicit-int] writetmpfile(fd, buf, cnt, fname) ^~~~~~~~~~~~ imake.c:923:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type] } ^ 48 warnings generated. cc -o imake imake.o imake.o: In function `main': imake.c:(.text+0xb2): warning: warning: mktemp() possibly used unsafely; consider using mkstemp() rm -f Makefile.bak; mv Makefile Makefile.bak mv: rename Makefile to Makefile.bak: No such file or directory *** Error code 1 (ignored) ./config/imake/imake -I./config/cf -DTOPDIR=. -DCURDIR=. ./config/imake/imake: No such file or directory: Cannot exec /usr/libexec/cpp. Stop. ./config/imake/imake: Exit code 1. Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. make: stopped in /zs/tingo/work/Dore-6.01 No, I haven't tried digging out the old FreeBSD port files from the archives yet. References: 1) https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/packages/development/graphics/Dore/ -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From cube1 at charter.net Sun Mar 19 18:36:02 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 18:36:02 -0500 Subject: LINCtape/DECtape Head Alignment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3243fd5c-ccc6-ca1f-e97d-82c16278bbc5@charter.net> On 3/19/2017 1:07 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> >> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 21:46:21 -0500 >> From: Jay Jaeger >> Subject: Re: LINCtape/DECtape Head Alignment >> >> Curious: How are you measuring the signal from the head? Do you have >> an honest to gosh differential probe, or are you using some other >> technique? (If you have a differential probe, then the TU56 manual >> indicates that you should see 10mv-12mv (the addition of the two paired >> heads together), so as a first guess I am guessing you are looking at >> the coils one at a time. >> > > We used the procedure in the TU56 maintenance manual, and used two G888 > modules to make the equivalent of the G500 described in the manual. The > G888 modules really cleanup the high frequency noise mixed with the head > signals. > Actually, I finally found a way to measure the heads and do it repeatably. Fortunately, my scope can go down to 500uv/division (5mv/division with the 10x probes). First, updating to the latest software on my DS2072A helped - but just a little. Getting the settings just right - not all of them immediately intuitive - helped more. (BTW, if you do not have a DSO, they are WONDERFUL. If you haven't seen one of these things in action, go to the EEVBLOG on YouTube My normal analog Tek scope now has a tear in its eye. Poor thing - it served me well. I got my scope during a time when Rigol had a promotional offering, so I got the decode features and a few other things that one might normally pay extra for. I got my from Saelig and they offered a discount to match that offered by other vendors who join the EEVBlog *forum*). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TSr9nFN1GU Here is what I learned over the past couple of days: 1. I set the bandwidth limit on the input to 20MHz. So this limits the bandwidth before it even gets to the Math processing and reduces the sample rate. Maybe this gives the 'scope more time to do other processing? Anyway, this made a VAST difference. I can still see the waveform without doing this, but it is attenuated and more quantized. 2. At times I did not have the 10x multiplier on the input channels set to match the probes, which meant my signal readouts were 10x off. This was another important mistake that lead to incorrect readings. (D'oh) 3. I then used the "Math" function on the scope and select a low bandwidth filter, and set it to 50Khz (more or less matching the TU56 manual's 60Khz identification of the Tek module they used). This gets rid of almost all of the noise (I live less than 2 miles from a bunch of TV and radio towers!) This way, I reliably get decent signal readings off of the heads. In fact, in this configuration, I could even set the Math to A-B and sometimes see the wave as the manual offers intended, though it was chock full of noise (unfortunately and understandably, the scope can't do both low filter and A-B at the same time.) (It might even be that I could use the scope to capture the data, and then post process it, but what I have now is just fine. It was helpful that I had reasonable confidence in the head to begin with. JRJ From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 19:54:34 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 17:54:34 -0700 Subject: FS: Microsoft Windows 1.0 in original retail package Message-ID: I have for sale a complete copy of Windows 1.0 (release 1.01) in the original retail pricing. Please check out my ad on the VCF forums for complete info: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56814-Microsoft-Windows-1-0-in-original-retail-packaging-complete Thanks! Sellam From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 19:56:48 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 17:56:48 -0700 Subject: FS: Heathkit ES-400 analog computer front panel Message-ID: I have for sale a Heathkit ES-400 front panel (only). Please check out my ad on the VCF forums for full details: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56811-Heathkit-ES-400-Analog-Computer-Front-Panel Thanks! Sellam From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 20:10:41 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 18:10:41 -0700 Subject: FS: Ampro Little Board P5x, Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer, Documation D150 Card Reader Message-ID: I have for sale the following items: Ampro Little Board P5x, a nice little late 90s development system: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56809-Ampro-Little-Board-P5x-and-chassis Pro-Log M900 PROM Programmer, with a 4004 microprocessor inside http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56813-Pro-Log-M900-PROM-Programmer-featuring-INS4004D-(4004)-microprocessor Documation D150 punched card reader http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56810-Documation-D150-punched-card-reader Also for sale: Franklin ACE 100 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56187-Franklin-ACE-100 SWTPc 6800 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56190-SouthWest-Technical-Products-Corporation-(SWTPC)-6800 Commodore PET 8032 in original box http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55679-Commodore-PET-8032-Brand-New-in-Original-Box-w-manuals-and-accessories UniCom 141p, the original Intel 4004 product http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55678-Unicom-141p-First-commercial-product-with-Intel-4004-microprocessor Sphere 1 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55677-Sphere-1-early-Personal-Computer-with-integrated-keyboard-and-display Fulcrum Data Systems IMSAI 8080 clone http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?51883-Fulcrum-IMSAI-8080-clone-system And more: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55964-Selling-Off-the-Collection Please contact me directly at this e-mail address for more information. Thanks! Sellam From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 03:06:27 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 05:06:27 -0300 Subject: FS: Microsoft Windows 1.0 in original retail package In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Probably you wanna say "original retail package" :) 2017-03-19 21:54 GMT-03:00 Sellam Ismail via cctalk : > I have for sale a complete copy of Windows 1.0 (release 1.01) in the > original retail pricing. Please check out my ad on the VCF forums for > complete info: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56814-Microsoft-Windows-1-0-in- > original-retail-packaging-complete > > Thanks! > > Sellam > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Mar 20 03:07:38 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:07:38 +0100 Subject: CDC 1700 Fortran [Was: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys] In-Reply-To: <06DBF9F1-931F-4361-95A1-C3A6B3ED43B7@forecast.name> References: <57b958c7-eefd-b2bc-5993-7b7a42309b19@jetnet.ab.ca> <0D22B6E9-9D36-4B6A-B9A1-F45C80299A78@comcast.net> <06DBF9F1-931F-4361-95A1-C3A6B3ED43B7@forecast.name> Message-ID: <20170320080736.GT15948@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 11:16:20AM -0400, John Forecast via cctalk wrote: > > I just released a new version of the CDC 1700 simulator for SIMH. This > is a one?s complement, 16-bit machine and the Fortran compiler is now > functional in 16KW of available space (a smaller version (12KW) was > available but I don?t know if any copies survived). The source code > for the compiler is available on Bitsavers - it?s written mostly in > Fortran. > How did you bootstrap the compiler? Or did you have a binary to start with? /P From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Mar 20 03:21:56 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 04:21:56 -0400 Subject: Looking for windows 1.x for HP-150 touchscreen Also looking for Touchscreen II Message-ID: Looking for windows 1.x for HP-150 touchscreen Also looking for Touchscreen II drop me a line offlist. Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 3/20/2017 1:06:35 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Probably you wanna say "original retail package" :) 2017-03-19 21:54 GMT-03:00 Sellam Ismail via cctalk : > I have for sale a complete copy of Windows 1.0 (release 1.01) in the > original retail pricing. Please check out my ad on the VCF forums for > complete info: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56814-Microsoft-Windows-1-0-in- > original-retail-packaging-complete > > Thanks! > > Sellam > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Mar 20 04:55:28 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 10:55:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: Looking for windows 1.x for HP-150 touchscreen Also looking for Touchscreen II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Mar 2017, Ed wrote: > Looking for windows 1.x for HP-150 touchscreen Also looking for Look at the obvious hpmuseum.net site, it's there. Christian From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Mar 20 05:07:57 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 06:07:57 -0400 Subject: Looking for windows 1.x for HP-150 touchscreen Also looking for Touchscre... Message-ID: <112799.689614d6.460103fd@aol.com> Yepper ...sure... I know that... But.... we need the physical artifact or at lest the box and a real manual to lay in the display. remember 90 percent of what I have to do here is for .... the visual! thnx Ed# In a message dated 3/20/2017 2:55:35 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de writes: On Mon, 20 Mar 2017, Ed wrote: > Looking for windows 1.x for HP-150 touchscreen Also looking for Look at the obvious hpmuseum.net site, it's there. Christian From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 20 11:11:26 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for cassete basic rom code In-Reply-To: References: <5BA8BBFA7397418C82C9C9D8C7339679@deskjara> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Mar 2017, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone made a ROM that runs BASIC and allows use of the disk drive to > save on an IBM PC? This always bugged me that if you forgot to insert your > dos disk before the computer powered up that one could not enter a basic > command to tell the system to boot up from the drive without > ctrl-alt-delete and wait....or to boot from the b drive, etc. > That would be very, very, cool. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 11:23:40 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:23:40 -0400 Subject: Looking for cassete basic rom code In-Reply-To: References: <5BA8BBFA7397418C82C9C9D8C7339679@deskjara> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 12:11 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 19 Mar 2017, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Has anyone made a ROM that runs BASIC and allows use of the disk drive to >> save on an IBM PC? This always bugged me that if you forgot to insert >> your >> dos disk before the computer powered up that one could not enter a basic >> command to tell the system to boot up from the drive without >> ctrl-alt-delete and wait....or to boot from the b drive, etc. >> >> That would be very, very, cool. :) > > g. > > -- > > Kind of a jiffy DOS for the IBM PC From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Mar 20 11:55:25 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:55:25 -0700 Subject: Looking for cassete basic rom code In-Reply-To: References: <5BA8BBFA7397418C82C9C9D8C7339679@deskjara> Message-ID: On 3/19/2017 9:47 AM, Adam Sampson via cctalk wrote: > > http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/bios/bios.htm > If anyone knows who owns the site, I have a small smidge for the reference page about Jumper 18 on the AT 5170 motherboard. It is set to make the motherboard memory decoder drop out half of the 512K from decoding as memory as well as disabling the memory if there is any. you put this option in to do the disable when you install the AT/370 card. It has 256K on board which fills in the other 256 K. When the 370 is running there is no difference in the operation of any software, as the dual ported memory is just memory to the AT. If you have a 256K AT this is a rare and exotic memory expansion board for all intents an purposes. The hosting software handles the dual memory as it needs. When the hosting software is running, and you have an IBM 3270 card which is compatible with the regular 3270 remote access software, you can either run that software and have a CUA connection over the 3270 coax to the mainframe, or a DFT session if you have that software. If you have the AT/370 software running there is a function key action which switches between a 3270 CUA session with your mainframe, which if you want it to be very useful should be VM of some sort (we has VM/SP5) running. With that session running you can file share with the mainframe's minidisks, initiate IND$FILE uploads and downloads from elsewhere (similar to FTP for the most part), and have a CUA VM session logged in. You can flip the PC to a CP / CMS session on your local 370 PC system as well. It sees both the local disk 30mb (unless you finagle the host software, about the limit), or you can map mainframe minidisks to your local VM, which is the real payoff. And there is a DOS session running in the smige off memory left, so you can copy files to / from the 30mb local AT disk (pretty much all you got room to run). And you can set up the printer port on the AT to be a legitimate 3270 printer if you have the mainframe 3270 port config generated to have a printer there. Would love to archive the entire site, it seems to have a lot of great well organized information. Anyway at length someone might want to put the purpose of J18 (or one use of it) in that page. thanks jim From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 12:16:14 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 18:16:14 +0100 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 15 March 2017 at 18:40, Josh Dersch wrote: > The Star introduced the concept of icons representing files (and other > things) in 1981. Smalltalk invented scrollbars (they were clumsier than > Apple's though) in the mid 70s. > > Also, don't forget that the Mac was designed by a number of ex-PARC > researchers. It may have been invented at Apple, but it was strongly > influenced by what went on at PARC. OK, fair points. I went off and did a little cursory (pun intended) research, since you've shown me up for relying on sketchy recall. I never saw these machines new at the time; I was a primary school pupil when the PC shipped and only in secondary school when the Mac did. This is just based on what I've read over the years. So, some cited Apple innovations. The first few come from the Lisa, AIUI, the later ones more from the Mac: * global menu bar * the desktop metaphor * the trash can * desktop icons for drives * drag-and-drop file manipulation * self-repairing windows * the Human Interface Guidelines and standardised UI across apps -- keystrokes, menu entries, etc. Citations: http://www.mac-history.net/computer-history/2012-03-22/apple-and-xerox-parc/3 http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=On_Xerox,_Apple_and_Progress.txt -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 12:18:21 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 18:18:21 +0100 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 15 March 2017 at 18:50, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Steve Capps was the only person on the original Mac team who worked at PARC. Larry Tesler Tom Molloy Bruce Horn Op cit -- http://www.mac-history.net/computer-history/2012-03-22/apple-and-xerox-parc/3 I may be muddling the Mac and Lisa teams here, mind. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 12:33:01 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 10:33:01 -0700 Subject: Looking for cassete basic rom code In-Reply-To: References: <5BA8BBFA7397418C82C9C9D8C7339679@deskjara> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 9:55 AM, jim stephens via cctalk > > > Would love to archive the entire site, it seems to have a lot of great well > organized information. > > Anyway at length someone might want to put the purpose of J18 (or one use of > it) in that page. > thanks > jim http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5170/misc/5170_motherboard_switch_settings.htm If you have comments or questions about that site you might want to try posting them at the Vintage Computer Forum. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum.php If I'm not mistaken the user "modem7" there runs http://www.minuszerodegrees.net and is a regular contributor on the Vintage Computer Forum. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Mar 20 12:48:31 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 10:48:31 -0700 Subject: Looking for cassete basic rom code In-Reply-To: References: <5BA8BBFA7397418C82C9C9D8C7339679@deskjara> Message-ID: <27993baa-29e8-d9ac-e431-2e2dd197c992@jwsss.com> On 3/20/2017 10:33 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum.php > > If I'm not mistaken the user "modem7" there runs > http://www.minuszerodegrees.net and is a regular contributor on the > Vintage Computer Forum. Will try that. Limited success with that forum. Not critical of them, just my style doesn't run with how they do. I need to study if there is a way to get push feed from interesting threads or such. I don't peruse much on sites anymore, and prefer to have an RSS feed or such and scan that with one liners or so. I don't recall finding that, though I may have a registration. thanks Jim From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 20 13:47:45 2017 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for cassete basic rom code In-Reply-To: <27993baa-29e8-d9ac-e431-2e2dd197c992@jwsss.com> References: <5BA8BBFA7397418C82C9C9D8C7339679@deskjara> <27993baa-29e8-d9ac-e431-2e2dd197c992@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Mar 2017, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I need to study if there is a way to get push feed from interesting threads > or such. I don't peruse much on sites > anymore, and prefer to have an RSS feed or such and scan that with one liners > or so. You can subscribe to threads or sub-boards. You'll get an email notification once a day of new things posted to sub-boards you're watching, or immediately if it's a thread you're watching. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 15:03:23 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 21:03:23 +0100 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170314203117.3A9F418C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 15 March 2017 at 20:05, geneb via cctalk wrote: > Why? The old nonsense still works! I gotta bring it out now and again to > keep the rust off and the joints moving freely. :) :-D > ITYM, "more buttons confuse those with cognitive delay". :) This isn't a great citation, but here's an example of the kind of quantitative measurement I mean: http://www.yorku.ca/mack/CHI01.htm There are others: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140137808931762 http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=142794 What I can't find right now is the research into the time taken to click a button when the user either has only one button, or a choice. The time goes up with the number of buttons, AIR, *even with experienced users*. It takes a decision to pick which button, and even though it's a very fast one, it's still an extra load. With no choice, that's gone. I strongly prefer multibutton mice. Even on my Macs, as soon as they got USB so they didn't cost extra. On OS X there's rich right-button support. But it is demonstrable that both 1 button is quicker, and is all you need. Now, of course, multitouch is rendering all this moot... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 15:05:25 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 21:05:25 +0100 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 15 March 2017 at 20:15, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Android runs a hacked BSD libc on top of a linux kernel. More than a bit of an oversimplification. Android has its own libc. It contains some portions from the BSD one, but is not a modified version. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bionic_(software) That's my reading, anyway. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Mon Mar 20 16:20:42 2017 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 16:20:42 -0500 Subject: Timesharing/multiuser BASIC for MC68K Message-ID: I just wanted to share a little project I've been working on, it's an adaptation of Lee Davison's EhBASIC to become a timeshared multiuser BASIC. There's still a bit more to do, but here's a video of it in operation: https://youtu.be/SAJpHiBPMcQ In that video, it's only running 3 sessions (I had no convenient 4th terminal) but it's capable of running 4. It is a very very simple preemptive multitasking 'kernel' providing I/O services and performing periodic context switches for the instances of the interpreter. It only runs a fixed number of processes, and all the process memory is statically allocated. EhBASIC lends itself well to this, the code is position independent by design, and the memory range is passed in. Everything is dereferenced relative to the 'start of memory' pointer. This means no need for an MMU or relocation. I'm hoping to set this up at VCF MW in September, running 4 terminals. More info on the hardware I'm using is available here: https://hackaday.io/project/6150-beckman-du600-reverse-engineering Pictures: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uw6cjqigk2sdwdy/AAAwP55aelyzrYeP1HVUDdMqa?dl=0 And another software project I'm working on as well (a ROM monitor program): https://github.com/jzatarski/Joe-Mon From kirkbdavis at me.com Mon Mar 20 17:10:44 2017 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 15:10:44 -0700 Subject: Timesharing/multiuser BASIC for MC68K In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice! > On Mar 20, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote: > > I just wanted to share a little project I've been working on, it's an > adaptation of Lee Davison's EhBASIC to become a timeshared multiuser BASIC. > There's still a bit more to do, but here's a video of it in operation: > https://youtu.be/SAJpHiBPMcQ > > In that video, it's only running 3 sessions (I had no convenient 4th > terminal) but it's capable of running 4. It is a very very simple > preemptive multitasking 'kernel' providing I/O services and performing > periodic context switches for the instances of the interpreter. It only > runs a fixed number of processes, and all the process memory is statically > allocated. EhBASIC lends itself well to this, the code is position > independent by design, and the memory range is passed in. Everything is > dereferenced relative to the 'start of memory' pointer. This means no need > for an MMU or relocation. > > I'm hoping to set this up at VCF MW in September, running 4 terminals. > > More info on the hardware I'm using is available here: > https://hackaday.io/project/6150-beckman-du600-reverse-engineering > > Pictures: > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uw6cjqigk2sdwdy/AAAwP55aelyzrYeP1HVUDdMqa?dl=0 > > And another software project I'm working on as well (a ROM monitor program): > https://github.com/jzatarski/Joe-Mon From jacek.greniger at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 08:58:32 2017 From: jacek.greniger at gmail.com (Jacek Greniger) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 14:58:32 +0100 Subject: Looking for article: microprogrammed DIY TTL calculator Message-ID: Hi, Two years ago I've found scans in PDF with the article (dated 197?, I don't remember) describing DIY TTL-based calculator. This was microprogrammed machine (if I remember correctly microproprogram was "stored" in the diode array). It has LED display and possiblity to calculate square root. Definitely not talking about EDUC-8 computer from 1975. I think this calculator was published a little bit earlier. Unfortunately I'm no longer able to find it. Does anyone associate the name of that magazine? Regards, Jacek From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Mar 20 09:33:25 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 08:33:25 -0600 Subject: Dore' on FreeBSD today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctech wrote: > FWIW, Dore'[1] doesn't compile out of the box on FreeBSD 10.3-stable: > ./config/imake/imake -I./config/cf -DTOPDIR=. -DCURDIR=. > ./config/imake/imake: No such file or directory: Cannot exec > /usr/libexec/cpp. Stop. > ./config/imake/imake: Exit code 1. Stop. I'd check the imake sources to see if it lets you set cpp via a env var and use that to set it to "cc -E". If not, the next easiest way around this is to hack imake to use cc -E instead. The next easiest is to create a /usr/libexec/cpp that looks like #!/bin/sh cc -E $* which is usually sufficient for imake. This looks to be an old-school C program, so you may see a boatload of warnings... Warner From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Mar 20 17:38:38 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 15:38:38 -0700 Subject: Timesharing/multiuser BASIC for MC68K In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/20/2017 2:20 PM, Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote: > More info on the hardware I'm using is available here: > https://hackaday.io/project/6150-beckman-du600-reverse-engineering I have a copy of Diab and MQX that would run on it if you have the full docs. the 68332 was a nice micro that was used in several projects I worked on. The first one I used an ice box that was a crude affair done by an operation in Massachusetts, which allowed in circuit testing via on chip facilities. Their development compiler was essentially GCC with a chip startup to set up the rom, ram etc. registers, then transfer control to the first instruction of main(). Diab is much like that with a cc setup that prepares the processor, but the MQX goes and runs much like your OS sounds. it is initially fixed number of tasks, but can add tasks, etc. Not really a timeshare type system, but a pretty powerful embedded OS of course. I have several boxes with the 68332 and will have to see if your gizmo would come up and run on it. I'd need to figure out how to get either an ethernet stack (there are some out there), or something to get to a serial mux from our hardware though. I think we have 2mb, and 1mb rom though. Also a very nice ASIC which was the reason for the hardware. Nice project thanks Jim From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Mar 20 17:51:14 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 15:51:14 -0700 Subject: Looking for article: microprogrammed DIY TTL calculator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C89323C-F2C1-4D03-AF56-85A1FA45ABF1@shaw.ca> On 2017-Mar-20, at 6:58 AM, Jacek Greniger via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > Two years ago I've found scans in PDF with the article (dated 197?, I don't > remember) describing DIY TTL-based calculator. This was microprogrammed > machine (if I remember correctly microproprogram was "stored" in the diode > array). It has LED display and possiblity to calculate square root. > Definitely not talking about EDUC-8 computer from 1975. I think this > calculator was published a little bit earlier. > > Unfortunately I'm no longer able to find it. Does anyone associate the name of > that magazine? There's this one: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/practicalElectronics/digi-cal/Digi-Cal_Jul72-May73.pdf I haven't looked at it in depth, but cursorily it looks like a way-behind-the-times (then) architecture - it looks like it's doing multiplication by exhaustive iteration, for example. One could reimplement a 1960s desktop calc design in TTL and be ahead. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 20 18:52:45 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 17:52:45 -0600 Subject: Looking for article: microprogrammed DIY TTL calculator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/20/2017 7:58 AM, Jacek Greniger via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > Two years ago I've found scans in PDF with the article (dated 197?, I don't > remember) describing DIY TTL-based calculator. This was microprogrammed > machine (if I remember correctly microproprogram was "stored" in the diode > array). It has LED display and possiblity to calculate square root. > Definitely not talking about EDUC-8 computer from 1975. I think this > calculator was published a little bit earlier. > > Unfortunately I'm no longer able to find it. Does anyone associate the name of > that magazine? > I think one is hidding at BITSAVERS. > Regards, > Jacek > Ben. From wkt at tuhs.org Mon Mar 20 19:33:36 2017 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 10:33:36 +1000 Subject: Introducing the UUCP/Usenet Project Message-ID: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> Hi all, as part of the upcoming 50th anniversary of Unix in mid-2019, a bunch of people are working to rebuild the mid-1980s uucp/Usenet network using (real/simulated) period-accurate systems. To make things easier, we are simulating the dialup lines too. Details of the (nearly) turnkey software to do this is at: https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp A map of what nodes we have so far is at: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp/4.3BSD/uucp.png If you are interested in participating, email me back. Cheers, Warren From wheagy at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 19:46:31 2017 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 20:46:31 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Expansion Interface question? Message-ID: I have a clean, and somewhat functional expansion interface that I just tested over the weekend. Without the EI connected, the model 1 reports ~16K RAM and with the EI the model 1 reports ~48K, so the RAM seems OK. But, the FD1771 IC, for some reason, was removed from an otherwise apparently functional EI. http://imgur.com/a/3NzOh Is there any reason why this chip would be removed? I see a number of them on ebay for around $25. The expansion interface hardware manual indicates it is an FD1771B-01, but the service manual indicates a couple possibilities....FD1771 A/B -01 -11. Any considerations to look for here? Thanks, Win From pete at pski.net Mon Mar 20 20:10:26 2017 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 21:10:26 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Expansion Interface question? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1610E61A-7079-4F62-AAE2-13EC1E388D38@pski.net> > On Mar 20, 2017, at 8:46 PM, Win Heagy via cctech wrote: > > Is there any reason why this chip would be removed? I see a number of them > on ebay for around $25. The expansion interface hardware manual indicates > it is an FD1771B-01, but the service manual indicates a couple > possibilities....FD1771 A/B -01 -11. Any considerations to look for here? > The EI may have had a double density board which plugs into the FDC chip socket. The FDC chip then plugs into the doubler. Without the doubler you only have single density. Original Percom or Tandy doublers are fairly rare to find today so someone may have pulled it out to sell. Ian Mavric in Australia does make reproductions though. From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Mar 20 21:50:51 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 19:50:51 -0700 Subject: Suggestions why SCSI 80 drive w/ SCSI2 (50) adapter will not spin up ? Message-ID: Host is a HP 9000/382 Copied the orig drive using a linux box, adaptec 2940N and good old dd Then swapped drives, a unused 9 GB 80 pin with a Chinese 80 to 50 adapter. Did have to issue a spin up command and then copied the data to this drive again with dd. Powered all off, added a motor start jumper to the adapter and put it on the 9000/382. Motor will not start, added a jumper right on the drive, no spin. so .. any ideas what I'm doing wrong, or just try a different drive ? -pete From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 20 22:43:18 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 20:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Expansion Interface question? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Mar 2017, Win Heagy via cctech wrote: > But, the FD1771 IC, for some reason, was removed from an otherwise > apparently functional EI. > http://imgur.com/a/3NzOh > Is there any reason why this chip would be removed? I see a number of them > on ebay for around $25. The expansion interface hardware manual indicates > it is an FD1771B-01, but the service manual indicates a couple > possibilities....FD1771 A/B -01 -11. Any considerations to look for here? Some owners replaced the 1771 with a daughterboard that contained a 1771 plus a better data separation circuit. The 1771 included internal data separation, which WD advised not to use. "EVERYBODY" used one of those. Before selling the Expansion Interface, the previous owner might have removed the data separator and sold it separately. Some owners replaced the 1771 with a daughterboard that contained a 1771 plus a 179x, called a "Doubler". That added double density (MFM) support. The Doubler included a 1771 because the 179x was incapable of writing some of the address marks that Model 1 TRSDOS used in its disk format. "EVERYBODY" used one of those. Before selling the Expansion Interface, the previous owner might have removed the Doubler and sold it separately. Both the Data Separator and the Doubler COULD HAVE used the 1771 that was taken out, but usually came with one already installed. 1) it made for one less prying out, bending pins and reinstalling with bent pins or backwards 2) it meant that there was a known good chip going in. Some owners replaced the 1771 with an aftermarket daughterboard that contained a 1771 plus some circuitry to do 8" SSSD. Often that was accompanied by a sandwich board for the Z80 in the CPU to remap memory for CP/M, and a CP/M for it. (such as Parasitic Engineering, and Omikron Mapper) "not EVERYBODY" used one of those. Before selling the Expansion Interface, the previous owner might have removed the adapter and sold it separately. (There also existed a "remapped" CP/M for the TRS80 that would work without the hardware remapping, although in general no known commercial software worked with that setup.) In addition to the 1771, does your Expansion Interface include the "RS232 board"? A Radio Shack Computer Store manager asserted that any incompatabilities with the standard were legitimate, "because OUR RS-232 board is RADIO SHACK 232" Before selling the Expansion Interface, the previous owner might have removed the adapter and sold it separately. There were a few modifications to the EI over time. The first version had a simple straight through cable. Then they made some changes and switched to a cable with a circuit box in the middle of it. Then they made some changes and switched to a cable with a circuit box in the middle of it, plus a small second cable. Then they made some changes and switched to a simple straight through cable. Make sure that you use the appropriate cable(s) for the level of changes that were made to yours. To keep reliability, do not plug/unplug and move the CPU and the EI. If you are going to do so, then bolt both pieces to a piece of plywood. RIV-NUTS or NUTSERTS into holes drilled into the bottom of the EI and CPU. You did not HAVE TO put the power supply for the CPU into the compartment in the EI. If you do, cutting a notch in the case means that you can tuck the excess cord in there to have 3" of power cord between the EI and CPU, instead of a couple of feet going out the BACK and around to the front. The RCA TV set that Radio Shack used as a monitor had a great big empty space where the tuner used to be. Plenty of room for a disk drive, or a pair of half-height drives. Mu-metal surround was kinda important. The CPU needed a trivial modification to add lower-case. Often accompanied by adding a "Control key", and sometimes a mod to give reverse video. Remember to put glyptol on the screw after making modifications, since warranty was void if there wasn't any glyptol. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 20 22:52:12 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 21:52:12 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Expansion Interface question? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <165099e7-d17b-aaea-d5ba-867fae81c0d7@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/20/2017 9:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > On Mon, 20 Mar 2017, Win Heagy via cctech wrote: >> But, the FD1771 IC, for some reason, was removed from an otherwise >> apparently functional EI. >> http://imgur.com/a/3NzOh >> Is there any reason why this chip would be removed? I see a number of >> them >> on ebay for around $25. The expansion interface hardware manual >> indicates >> it is an FD1771B-01, but the service manual indicates a couple >> possibilities....FD1771 A/B -01 -11. Any considerations to look for >> here? > > > Some owners replaced the 1771 with a daughterboard that contained a 1771 > plus a better data separation circuit. The 1771 included internal data > separation, which WD advised not to use. > "EVERYBODY" used one of those. > Before selling the Expansion Interface, the previous owner might have > removed the data separator and sold it separately. > > Some owners replaced the 1771 with a daughterboard that contained a 1771 > plus a 179x, called a "Doubler". That added double density (MFM) > support. The Doubler included a 1771 because the 179x was incapable of > writing some of the address marks that Model 1 TRSDOS used in its disk > format. > "EVERYBODY" used one of those. > Before selling the Expansion Interface, the previous owner might have > removed the Doubler and sold it separately. > > Both the Data Separator and the Doubler COULD HAVE used the 1771 that > was taken out, but usually came with one already installed. > 1) it made for one less prying out, bending pins and reinstalling with > bent pins or backwards > 2) it meant that there was a known good chip going in. > > > Some owners replaced the 1771 with an aftermarket daughterboard that > contained a 1771 plus some circuitry to do 8" SSSD. Often that was > accompanied by a sandwich board for the Z80 in the CPU to remap memory > for CP/M, and a CP/M for it. > (such as Parasitic Engineering, and Omikron Mapper) > "not EVERYBODY" used one of those. > Before selling the Expansion Interface, the previous owner might have > removed the adapter and sold it separately. > (There also existed a "remapped" CP/M for the TRS80 that would work > without the hardware remapping, although in general no known commercial > software worked with that setup.) > > > > In addition to the 1771, does your Expansion Interface include the > "RS232 board"? A Radio Shack Computer Store manager asserted that any > incompatabilities with the standard were legitimate, "because OUR RS-232 > board is RADIO SHACK 232" > Before selling the Expansion Interface, the previous owner might have > removed the adapter and sold it separately. > > > There were a few modifications to the EI over time. > The first version had a simple straight through cable. > Then they made some changes and switched to a cable with a circuit box > in the middle of it. > Then they made some changes and switched to a cable with a circuit box > in the middle of it, plus a small second cable. > Then they made some changes and switched to a simple straight through > cable. > Make sure that you use the appropriate cable(s) for the level of changes > that were made to yours. > > To keep reliability, do not plug/unplug and move the CPU and the EI. > If you are going to do so, then bolt both pieces to a piece of plywood. > RIV-NUTS or NUTSERTS into holes drilled into the bottom of the EI and CPU. > > > You did not HAVE TO put the power supply for the CPU into the > compartment in the EI. If you do, cutting a notch in the case means > that you can tuck the excess cord in there to have 3" of power cord > between the EI and CPU, instead of a couple of feet going out the BACK > and around to the front. > > > The RCA TV set that Radio Shack used as a monitor had a great big empty > space where the tuner used to be. Plenty of room for a disk drive, or a > pair of half-height drives. Mu-metal surround was kinda important. > > The CPU needed a trivial modification to add lower-case. Often > accompanied by adding a "Control key", and sometimes a mod to give > reverse video. Remember to put glyptol on the screw after making > modifications, since warranty was void if there wasn't any glyptol. Act quick before Radio Shack closes its doors forever. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Ben. What happens to my life tube replacement guarantee now? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 20 23:01:45 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 21:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Expansion Interface question? In-Reply-To: <165099e7-d17b-aaea-d5ba-867fae81c0d7@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <165099e7-d17b-aaea-d5ba-867fae81c0d7@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Mar 2017, ben via cctech wrote: > Act quick before Radio Shack closes its doors forever. Radio Shack stores haven't had any of that stuff for decades. One Doubler on eBay; no 1771s From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 23:17:07 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 22:17:07 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Expansion Interface question? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 6:46 PM, Win Heagy via cctech wrote: > The expansion interface hardware manual indicates > it is an FD1771B-01, but the service manual indicates a couple > possibilities....FD1771 A/B -01 -11. Any considerations to look for here? > All other things being equal, I'd use the FD1771x-01, with x being either A or B. The A vs. B is just whether the chip is in a ceramic (A) or plastic (B) package. This makes no difference in the TRS-80 EI. The numeric suffix indicates functional or specification differences. The -01 suffix is rated for operation at 1 MHz or 2 MHz, which is fine for the TRS-80 EI, which runs it at 1 MHz (as required for 5.25-inch standard-density floppies). The -02 suffix is rated for operation at 2 MHz only, so in principle it isn't guaranteed to work in the TRS-80 EI, but in practice it should work fine. The -11 suffix is for a part that has an internal substrate bias generator, so pin 1 (Vbb) should be disconnected. This wouldn't meet spec in the TRS-80 EI without disconnecting pin 1, though it's possible that it might work OK without doing so. At 1 MHz, the available stepping rate selections for the -01 and -11 are 12, 20, and 40 ms, while for the -02 they are 12, 16, and 20 ms. From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Tue Mar 21 03:51:48 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 09:51:48 +0100 Subject: Introducing the UUCP/Usenet Project In-Reply-To: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: Hi Warren, What would the requirements for the system be? How often would it need to be online? I?m working on getting an OS for it, but if I succeed I might be able to get my Convex C1 up and running in a few weeks, and wouldn?t it be nice to have that participate? Camiel On 3/21/17, 1:33 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Warren Toomey via cctalk" wrote: >Hi all, as part of the upcoming 50th anniversary of Unix in mid-2019, >a bunch of people are working to rebuild the mid-1980s uucp/Usenet >network using (real/simulated) period-accurate systems. To make things >easier, we are simulating the dialup lines too. > >Details of the (nearly) turnkey software to do this is at: >https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp > >A map of what nodes we have so far is at: >https://raw.githubusercontent.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp/4.3BSD/uucp.png > >If you are interested in participating, email me back. >Cheers, Warren From wkt at tuhs.org Tue Mar 21 05:04:20 2017 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 20:04:20 +1000 Subject: Introducing the UUCP/Usenet Project Message-ID: <20170321100420.GA18289@minnie.tuhs.org> Camiel wrote: > What would the requirements for the system be? How often would it need to > be online? I added an answer here: https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp#joining-the-growing-uucp-network For central sites (like decvax) that had a lot of connectivity, you will be expected to run them continuously. For edge sites which only dial in to one other site to exchange news and e-mail, you can run them whenever you want. It's mostly simulated sites right now, but I'd love to see some real systems come up and connect in. Not sure how to connect the simulated sites (using TCP for the dialup links) and the real sites. Cheers, Warren From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 21 06:10:44 2017 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (hp-fix at xs4all.nl) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 12:10:44 +0100 Subject: Suggestions why SCSI 80 drive w/ SCSI2 (50) adapter will not spin up ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7c4805a41103d0ff141a94b21022b297@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> The HP 9000/382 only supports SE scsi and the drive needs to be terminated. -Rik Van: Pete Lancashire via cctalk Verzonden: dinsdag 21 maart 2017 07:17 Aan: General Onderwerp: Suggestions why SCSI 80 drive w/ SCSI2 (50) adapter will not spin up ? Host is a HP 9000/382 Copied the orig drive using a linux box, adaptec 2940N and good old dd Then swapped drives, a unused 9 GB 80 pin with a Chinese 80 to 50 adapter. Did have to issue a spin up command and then copied the data to this drive again with dd. Powered all off, added a motor start jumper to the adapter and put it on the 9000/382. Motor will not start, added a jumper right on the drive, no spin. so .. any ideas what I'm doing wrong, or just try a different drive ? -pete From hachti at hachti.de Tue Mar 21 07:04:16 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 13:04:16 +0100 Subject: MUMPS in the news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 03/20/2017 01:57 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/03/vista-computer-history-va-conspiracy-000367 Thank you, I ejoyed reading the article! Philipp From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Mar 21 07:05:04 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 09:05:04 -0300 Subject: Suggestions why SCSI 80 drive w/ SCSI2 (50) adapter will not spin up ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <314893dd-7188-53f2-462f-874e32a99bd4@gmail.com> On 2017-03-20 11:50 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > Host is a HP 9000/382 > > Copied the orig drive using a linux box, adaptec 2940N and good old dd > > Then swapped drives, a unused 9 GB 80 pin with a Chinese 80 to 50 > adapter. > > Did have to issue a spin up command and then copied the data to this drive > again with dd. > > Powered all off, added a motor start jumper to the adapter and put it on the > 9000/382. Motor will not start, added a jumper right on the drive, no spin. > > so .. any ideas what I'm doing wrong, or just try a different drive ? > > -pete Well if the drive has an 80 pin SCA interface there is a chance that it is a LVD drive, which normally would be ok since LVD devices are obliged by the SCSI spec to be able to operate in SE mode as well, but the problem may be you 80 to 50 convertor. I have encounter some that are not correctly wired and as a result do not always work. LVD SCSI devices monitor a line call DIFFSENSE which is pin 46 on the SCA connector for SE operation this pin needs to be grounded, it is also possible that the drive itself has an option jumper to force SE mode if it is an LVD device. It would help if you mentioned what the model of the drive in question is. Paul. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Mar 21 07:59:50 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 09:59:50 -0300 Subject: Suggestions why SCSI 80 drive w/ SCSI2 (50) adapter will not spin up ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <980328ec-80a8-9e42-da6c-bffa513f8297@gmail.com> On 2017-03-20 11:50 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > Host is a HP 9000/382 > > Copied the orig drive using a linux box, adaptec 2940N and good old dd > > Then swapped drives, a unused 9 GB 80 pin with a Chinese 80 to 50 > adapter. > > Did have to issue a spin up command and then copied the data to this drive > again with dd. > > Powered all off, added a motor start jumper to the adapter and put it on the > 9000/382. Motor will not start, added a jumper right on the drive, no spin. > > so .. any ideas what I'm doing wrong, or just try a different drive ? > > -pete Further to my previous reply, did you use the same SCA to 50 pin adapter? If so then that would suggest the adapter is OK. If you are jumpering the drive to spin on power then it should start up as soon as power is applied, the pins on the SCA connector that affect motor operation are 38 RMT_START and 78 DLYD_START both should be left open for spin on power. If RMT_START is grounded motor will only start on command if DLD_START is grounded motor start will be delayed 12 seconds X SCSI ID. Does the drive spin if it is not connected to the SCSI bus? I suppose it is also possible that the drive does not support "spin on power" so again knowing what drive model you are using would be helpful. Paul. From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Mar 21 07:49:15 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 05:49:15 -0700 Subject: Suggestions why SCSI 80 drive w/ SCSI2 (50) adapter will not spin up ? In-Reply-To: <7c4805a41103d0ff141a94b21022b297@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> References: <7c4805a41103d0ff141a94b21022b297@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> Message-ID: Found at least one issue, open trace next to a via on the adapter. Ran out of time to keep checking. -pete On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 4:10 AM, Rik Bos via cctalk wrote: > The HP 9000/382 only supports SE scsi and the drive needs to be terminated. > > -Rik > > Van: Pete Lancashire via cctalk > Verzonden: dinsdag 21 maart 2017 07:17 > Aan: General > Onderwerp: Suggestions why SCSI 80 drive w/ SCSI2 (50) adapter will not > spin up ? > > Host is a HP 9000/382 > > Copied the orig drive using a linux box, adaptec 2940N and good old dd > > Then swapped drives, a unused 9 GB 80 pin with a Chinese 80 to 50 > adapter. > > Did have to issue a spin up command and then copied the data to this drive > again with dd. > > Powered all off, added a motor start jumper to the adapter and put it on > the > 9000/382. Motor will not start, added a jumper right on the drive, no spin. > > so .. any ideas what I'm doing wrong, or just try a different drive ? > > -pete > > > From ray at arachelian.com Tue Mar 21 11:20:26 2017 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 12:20:26 -0400 Subject: Introducing the UUCP/Usenet Project In-Reply-To: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <7a007fa2-8e03-8017-a2c7-d89b72185725@arachelian.com> On 03/20/2017 08:33 PM, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, as part of the upcoming 50th anniversary of Unix in mid-2019, > a bunch of people are working to rebuild the mid-1980s uucp/Usenet > network using (real/simulated) period-accurate systems. To make things > easier, we are simulating the dialup lines too. > > Details of the (nearly) turnkey software to do this is at: > https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp > > A map of what nodes we have so far is at: > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp/4.3BSD/uucp.png > > If you are interested in participating, email me back. > Cheers, Warren > That's awesome! Thank you for doing this! Please consider adding an encryption layer to tcpdial via openssl/libressl, even if it's done outside of the netbsd vm/physical machine, and even if it's done with self-signed certs or even tunneled over ssh. From ray at arachelian.com Tue Mar 21 12:32:19 2017 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 13:32:19 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 03/16/2017 11:28 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm waiting for the rise of cell phones to make it >> >> 202x All the world's an ARM running Android >> > ....on Linux. :) Actually goog's trying to get rid of the linux and replacing it with another OS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia Whether they use it to replace Android remains to be seen. (And meanwhile AAPL is busy, or was, getting rid of all GPL stuff in its OS.) From lists at loomcom.com Tue Mar 21 16:44:46 2017 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:44:46 -0500 Subject: Introducing the UUCP/Usenet Project In-Reply-To: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20170321214446.GA29594@loomcom.com> * On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 10:33:36AM +1000, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, as part of the upcoming 50th anniversary of Unix in mid-2019, > a bunch of people are working to rebuild the mid-1980s uucp/Usenet > network using (real/simulated) period-accurate systems. To make things > easier, we are simulating the dialup lines too. This is an absolutely wonderful idea. I would very much like to get one of my 3B2s up and running on this new UUCP network. I still have a mostly fallow land line that I can use. When I have some time in the next week or two, I'll try to get things ready under SVR3 UNIX. -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 21 17:19:57 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 15:19:57 -0700 Subject: Introducing the UUCP/Usenet Project In-Reply-To: <20170321214446.GA29594@loomcom.com> References: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> <20170321214446.GA29594@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <28452848-c225-cfde-4237-0c99f7bb75b7@sydex.com> On 03/21/2017 02:44 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > I would very much like to get one of my 3B2s up and running on this > new UUCP network. I still have a mostly fallow land line that I can > use. When I have some time in the next week or two, I'll try to get > things ready under SVR3 UNIX. For those without *nix boxes, there is a DOS/OS2 version called UUPC: https://github.com/swhobbit/UUPC I used this back in the pre-web days and it worked fine. --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Tue Mar 21 17:22:35 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 15:22:35 -0700 Subject: Introducing the UUCP/Usenet Project In-Reply-To: <28452848-c225-cfde-4237-0c99f7bb75b7@sydex.com> References: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> <20170321214446.GA29594@loomcom.com> <28452848-c225-cfde-4237-0c99f7bb75b7@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 03/21/2017 02:44 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > > > I would very much like to get one of my 3B2s up and running on this > > new UUCP network. I still have a mostly fallow land line that I can > > use. When I have some time in the next week or two, I'll try to get > > things ready under SVR3 UNIX. > > > For those without *nix boxes, there is a DOS/OS2 version called UUPC: > > https://github.com/swhobbit/UUPC > > I used this back in the pre-web days and it worked fine. > > --Chuck > There's a VMS version, too. So many choices.... -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 21 17:47:39 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 22:47:39 +0000 Subject: Introducing the UUCP/Usenet Project In-Reply-To: <20170321214446.GA29594@loomcom.com> References: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org>, <20170321214446.GA29594@loomcom.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Seth Morabito via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 5:44 PM To: Warren Toomey via cctalk Subject: Re: Introducing the UUCP/Usenet Project * On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 10:33:36AM +1000, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, as part of the upcoming 50th anniversary of Unix in mid-2019, > a bunch of people are working to rebuild the mid-1980s uucp/Usenet > network using (real/simulated) period-accurate systems. To make things > easier, we are simulating the dialup lines too. This is an absolutely wonderful idea. I would very much like to get one of my 3B2s up and running on this new UUCP network. I still have a mostly fallow land line that I can use. When I have some time in the next week or two, I'll try to get things ready under SVR3 UNIX. -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com ________________________________________________ My introduction to UUCPNet, emai and USENET News was on a couple of 3B2's. Great machines. I used to have two of them at home but they died over a decade ago. Somewhere arounf here I still have my xerox of the WE3200 architecture manual. I loved that CPU. bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 21 19:22:02 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 17:22:02 -0700 Subject: Suggestions why SCSI 80 drive w/ SCSI2 (50) adapter will not spin up ? In-Reply-To: References: <7c4805a41103d0ff141a94b21022b297@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > Found at least one issue, open trace next to a via on the adapter. Ran out > of time to keep checking. > > -pete I just checked my HP 9000/382 and found I put the dead original Quantum 50-pin SCSI hard drive back in it. I must have been using a 68-pin 9GB SCSI hard drive the last time I was tinkering with it, with a 50-pin male / 68-pin male adapter. I don't remember having any issues with that configuration. I did a clean install of HP-UX 9.10 on my 9000/382 from a B2378-87054 CD image I got from hpmuseum.net http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=525 From wkt at tuhs.org Tue Mar 21 20:02:58 2017 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 11:02:58 +1000 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? Message-ID: <20170322010258.GA30279@minnie.tuhs.org> OK, so I don't have a real VT100, so I'm accessing an old 4.3BSD system with xterm and LXTerminal terminal emulators on Linux. Last night, for a laugh, I ran vttest from the 1980s and the terminal emulators performed woefully. Which raises the question, are there any _good_ VT100 terminal emulators, especially for Linux? For any other platforms? Cheers, Warren From wilson at dbit.com Tue Mar 21 20:20:10 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 21:20:10 -0400 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? In-Reply-To: <20170322010258.GA30279@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20170322010258.GA30279@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20170322012010.GA24448@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 11:02:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote: >OK, so I don't have a real VT100, so I'm accessing an old 4.3BSD system >with xterm and LXTerminal terminal emulators on Linux. Last night, for a >laugh, I ran vttest from the 1980s and the terminal emulators performed >woefully. > >Which raises the question, are there any _good_ VT100 terminal >emulators, especially for Linux? For any other platforms? If I do say so myself, the one in E11 is very true. Its VT100, VT101, and VT102 emulations "fail" VTTEST in exactly the same ways that the real VT100, VT101, and VT102 do (point is: VTTEST is a fool's paradise, and anything which 100% passes it is *definitely* not 100% VT100-compatible). The best E11 flavors for the VT100 emulation are for Windows and OS/2 (those give you pretty much *everything*, including smooth-scroll and blink and true double-size characters and the correct VT100 font and the SET-UP 0 screen scramble). DOS and stand-alone give you a good text-mode approximation (minus smooth scroll, and blink isn't quite accurate, and the double-size characters reassign unused char-gen cells until they run out and then it starts to look like a ransom note), but the Linux version works only on text consoles (mainly because I haven't found a linker that builds from OMF386 .OBJ files yet also handles ELF imports correctly, so I can't build it against X). Currently there's no free-standing version (it exists only built into E11), which I've been meaning to deal with for centuries (and I'm currently -- as in for the past week -- working on a version for XMOS microcontrollers as part of my "SchmELF" CDP1802 project), but meanwhile if you go here: www.dbit.com/pub/e11/ ... and grab the "vt100.ini" and "vt100.pdp" files, that gives you a simple loopback program which makes the E11 VT100 console act as a terminal connected to whatever's assigned to TT1: (a serial port or "TELCLIENT:" Telnet client are the most useful -- which currently rules out OS/2 I guess). John Wilson D Bit From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 21 20:10:02 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 01:10:02 +0000 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? In-Reply-To: <20170322010258.GA30279@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20170322010258.GA30279@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Warren Toomey via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:02 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? OK, so I don't have a real VT100, so I'm accessing an old 4.3BSD system with xterm and LXTerminal terminal emulators on Linux. Last night, for a laugh, I ran vttest from the 1980s and the terminal emulators performed woefully. Which raises the question, are there any _good_ VT100 terminal emulators, especially for Linux? For any other platforms? Cheers, Warren __________________________________________ I've never formally tested it but people say Putty is very good. I have even heard VMS users say it works with LSE. ANd then, if you have MSDOS laying around somewhere there is MSKermit which had to be the best I ever saw. bill From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Mar 21 22:49:53 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 20:49:53 -0700 Subject: booting os/8 Message-ID: Hi folks, I have a PDP-8/e that I've been working on. I have completed construction of AK6DN's RX01/02 emulator. I got to the step tonight where I was trying to boot an OS/8 disk image and nothing was happening. I realized that I do not have the bootstrap diode board in my 8/e so begin the bootstrap triggered by the "SW" switch. Does anyone have the program I can toggle in for the bootloader? What I found is somewhat confusing. Here is a discussion on this topic. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.sys.pdp8/RX01$20boot|sort:relevance/alt.sys.pdp8/9-GCoA0PCLA/370T3R-Ru_AJ It seems one fellow was attempting to edit/improve the bootloader of another fellow. I was wondering if anyone has distilled this into something simple. At the moment, I care only about booting from RX01-Disk0. Any pointers greatly appreciated. Thanks Eugene W2HX From jsw at ieee.org Tue Mar 21 23:33:46 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 23:33:46 -0500 Subject: booting os/8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:49 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > Hi folks, > > I have a PDP-8/e that I've been working on. I have completed construction of AK6DN's RX01/02 emulator. I got to the step tonight where I was trying to boot an OS/8 disk image and nothing was happening. I realized that I do not have the bootstrap diode board in my 8/e so begin the bootstrap triggered by the "SW" switch. > > Does anyone have the program I can toggle in for the bootloader? What I found is somewhat confusing. Here is a discussion on this topic. > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.sys.pdp8/RX01$20boot|sort:relevance/alt.sys.pdp8/9-GCoA0PCLA/370T3R-Ru_AJ > > It seems one fellow was attempting to edit/improve the bootloader of another fellow. I was wondering if anyone has distilled this into something simple. At the moment, I care only about booting from RX01-Disk0. > > Any pointers greatly appreciated. Thanks > Eugene W2HX > The Data Systems Design DSD 440 Disk Drive Manual on page 5-34 has a PDP8 RX01 drive 0 Bootstrap. I can?t vouch for it personally. The listing basically consists of ? Load the following bootstrap sequence through the front panel., 33/ 6755 34/ 5054 35/ 5045 45/ 7326 46/ 6751 47/ 4053 50/ 3002 51/ 2050 52/ 5047 53/ 6753 54/ 6753 55/ 5033 56/ 6752 57/ 5453 60/ 7004 ? Start at location 33. IF the diskette is write-protected, the computer will halt at location 7604. Pressing the CONTINUE (or run) switch on the front panel will then start the monitor. Additionally, if at any time the is halted and you wish to restart in the monitor, this can be done by the diagnostic diskette in drive 0 and restarting at location 7605. Note: The halt/restart locations applies to a vendor supplied diagnostic. Good luck, Jerry WB9MRI From lars at nocrew.org Wed Mar 22 00:53:33 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 06:53:33 +0100 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? In-Reply-To: <20170322010258.GA30279@minnie.tuhs.org> (Warren Toomey via cctalk's message of "Wed, 22 Mar 2017 11:02:58 +1000") References: <20170322010258.GA30279@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <8660j1q2le.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Warren Toomey wrote: > are there any _good_ VT100 terminal emulators This emulates the 8080 and runs off ROMs, if you want that kind of accuracy: https://github.com/phooky/VT100-Hax From goetz at 3rz.org Tue Mar 21 18:29:25 2017 From: goetz at 3rz.org (goetz at 3rz.org) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 00:29:25 +0100 Subject: Introducing the UUCP/Usenet Project In-Reply-To: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: Am 21.03.2017 um 01:33 schrieb Warren Toomey via cctech : > A map of what nodes we have so far is at: > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp/4.3BSD/uucp.png Please add (rough) locations, where the boxes are, and what OS/stack these are using, if anyhow possible! Would love to see that. Regards G?tz From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Mar 21 19:12:00 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 17:12:00 -0700 Subject: Timesharing/multiuser BASIC for MC68K In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just want to add the thumbs up on your project. -pete On Mar 20, 2017 3:38 PM, "jim stephens via cctalk" wrote: > > > On 3/20/2017 2:20 PM, Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote: > >> More info on the hardware I'm using is available here: >> https://hackaday.io/project/6150-beckman-du600-reverse-engineering >> > I have a copy of Diab and MQX that would run on it if you have the full > docs. the 68332 was a nice micro > that was used in several projects I worked on. The first one I used an > ice box that was a crude affair > done by an operation in Massachusetts, which allowed in circuit testing > via on chip facilities. > > Their development compiler was essentially GCC with a chip startup to set > up the rom, ram etc. registers, > then transfer control to the first instruction of main(). > > Diab is much like that with a cc setup that prepares the processor, but > the MQX goes and runs much like > your OS sounds. it is initially fixed number of tasks, but can add tasks, > etc. Not really a timeshare type > system, but a pretty powerful embedded OS of course. > > I have several boxes with the 68332 and will have to see if your gizmo > would come up and run on it. I'd > need to figure out how to get either an ethernet stack (there are some out > there), or something to > get to a serial mux from our hardware though. I think we have 2mb, and > 1mb rom though. Also a > very nice ASIC which was the reason for the hardware. > > Nice project > thanks > Jim > > > From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Mar 21 19:48:13 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 17:48:13 -0700 Subject: Suggestions why SCSI 80 drive w/ SCSI2 (50) adapter will not spin up ? In-Reply-To: References: <7c4805a41103d0ff141a94b21022b297@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> Message-ID: I took a closer look at the adapter, and not only is the an cracked trace next to a via but a soldering? short. The place in CN is sending me another one. For now I have put back the original drive. Somewhere in the junk is the solution to the next issue, either an old hub Tha has coax/BNC or the box of MAUs that came with the pallet of Sun pizza s -Pete to much junk On Mar 21, 2017 5:22 PM, "Glen Slick via cctalk" wrote: > On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk > wrote: > > Found at least one issue, open trace next to a via on the adapter. Ran > out > > of time to keep checking. > > > > -pete > > I just checked my HP 9000/382 and found I put the dead original > Quantum 50-pin SCSI hard drive back in it. I must have been using a > 68-pin 9GB SCSI hard drive the last time I was tinkering with it, with > a 50-pin male / 68-pin male adapter. I don't remember having any > issues with that configuration. > > I did a clean install of HP-UX 9.10 on my 9000/382 from a B2378-87054 > CD image I got from hpmuseum.net > > http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=525 > > From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Mar 21 19:57:50 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 20:57:50 -0400 Subject: VCF East - 10 days away! Message-ID: Friendly reminder that Vintage Computer Festival East XII is only 10 days away! March 31-April 2 in New Jersey. Two hands-on exhibit halls, a dozen tech talks, three keynotes, consignment sale, and you can visit the year-round Vintage Computer Federation museum while you're here. All the details are here: http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-east/ ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Mar 22 06:11:15 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 11:11:15 +0000 (WET) Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? In-Reply-To: References: <20170322010258.GA30279@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <01QC9UOQLQS4003C82@beyondthepale.ie> > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Warren Toomey via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:02 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? > > OK, so I don't have a real VT100, so I'm accessing an old 4.3BSD system > with xterm and LXTerminal terminal emulators on Linux. Last night, for a > laugh, I ran vttest from the 1980s and the terminal emulators performed > woefully. > > Which raises the question, are there any _good_ VT100 terminal > emulators, especially for Linux? For any other platforms? > > Cheers, Warren > > __________________________________________ > > I've never formally tested it but people say Putty is very good. I have even > heard VMS users say it works with LSE. ANd then, if you have MSDOS > laying around somewhere there is MSKermit which had to be the best I > ever saw. > > bill I've used Putty to connect to a VMS system to run TPU (which I think LSE is a thinly disguised variant of) and I have regularly come across an irritating bug which messes up full screen editing when the on-screen cursor seems to get out of step with the text that is actually getting changed, or something like that anyway. Scrolling down the file and scrolling back up to the point where changes were made reveals that the changes actually made were not what it looked like was changed on the screen. Having said that Putty is way better than any of the Microsoft telnet or Hyperterminal offerings which are completely unusable with TPU or anything else that attempts to make use of a scrolling region (vi maybe? - I don't know). I haven't used MSKermit for donkeys years but as far as I recall, the emulation was very good with the exception of stuff like double height characters and smooth scroll not being implemented which did not affect functionality in the way that the Putty bug does. I haven't used it but I think there were very good reports about the terminal emulation in Kermit 95. I can't recall noticing any problems with the terminal emulation when using whatever telnet client comes with relatively current Apple Mac and Linux systems in whatever terminal environment they provide (xterm maybe?), nor the Multinet telnet client on VMS when running it in a DECterm or a real VT terminal. I also agree with John Wilson's take on VTTEST being well off the mark. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 22 08:01:40 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 09:01:40 -0400 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? In-Reply-To: <01QC9UOQLQS4003C82@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20170322010258.GA30279@minnie.tuhs.org> <01QC9UOQLQS4003C82@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <95778ED6-2263-4C37-9EE0-57A065C9CAA2@comcast.net> > On Mar 22, 2017, at 7:11 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > ... > I've used Putty to connect to a VMS system to run TPU (which I think LSE is > a thinly disguised variant of) and I have regularly come across an irritating > bug which messes up full screen editing when the on-screen cursor seems to get > out of step with the text that is actually getting changed, or something like > that anyway. Scrolling down the file and scrolling back up to the point where > changes were made reveals that the changes actually made were not what it > looked like was changed on the screen. I don't remember how VMS describes terminal types, but here's one possible issue. VT100 is fairly different from VT101/102, and if the emulator is emulating a VT100 while the application has been told it has a VT102, things are likely to be problematic. I vaguely remember that VT100 lacks the insert operations, and if the program tries to use those when they aren't there, that would certainly cause the sort of problems you mentioned. paul From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 08:01:26 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 13:01:26 +0000 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? In-Reply-To: <20170322010258.GA30279@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20170322010258.GA30279@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: On 22 March 2017 at 01:02, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote: > Which raises the question, are there any _good_ VT100 terminal > emulators, especially for Linux? For any other platforms? > You don't specify open source or commercial, but for windows I used to constantly use PowerTerm525 at work, it's originally an Ericom product but DEC bundled it in with the Pathworks client and it did everything I needed as an old coder who used to write for all the VT1xx AVO features. These days I use PuTTY which works fine for all my VMS stuff but you also still have Reflection (pair) and TeraTerm (free). Even now though I still miss the EDT keypad, muscle memory is a great thing, having just added this line in I automatically hit KP0 to cursor down to the next line :) Linux, no idea. I seem to use lxterm mostly, and minicom for serial terminal stuff. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 08:05:29 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:05:29 +0100 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? Message-ID: On 22 March 2017 at 02:02, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote: > Which raises the question, are there any _good_ VT100 terminal > emulators, especially for Linux? For any other platforms? xterm never gives me any problems. But the default terminal emulators of Gnome or KDE have some issues in my experience. xterm is always buried in the system somewhere though, and it works. I use it e.g. for accessing my old minicomputer which has a VT100 setting. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 08:23:52 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 09:23:52 -0400 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: > xterm never gives me any problems. But the default terminal emulators > of Gnome or KDE have some issues in my experience... Somewhere around 2004, I was setting up klh10. I found that xterm did not allow me to run emacs successfully. I had dumb terminals on hand, so I plugged a vt420 into my serial port, ran a getty, logged in, ran klh10 from there and emacs loved it. I'm following this thread because I too want a decent terminal emulator that works with a variety of vintage text editors (that seems to be the torture test) but for Linux or OS X. Putty seems to be a repeat suggestion but it's not for my platforms. -ethan From lars at nocrew.org Wed Mar 22 08:29:29 2017 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:29:29 +0100 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? In-Reply-To: (Ethan Dicks via cctalk's message of "Wed, 22 Mar 2017 09:23:52 -0400") References: Message-ID: <86bmsto2x2.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Somewhere around 2004, I was setting up klh10. I found that xterm did > not allow me to run emacs successfully. I have successfullyl run xterm in VT52 mode with ITS Emacs. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 08:33:17 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 09:33:17 -0400 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? In-Reply-To: <86bmsto2x2.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <86bmsto2x2.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 9:29 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Somewhere around 2004, I was setting up klh10. I found that xterm did >> not allow me to run emacs successfully. > > I have successfullyl run xterm in VT52 mode with ITS Emacs. I must confess I did not attempt VT52 mode with Emacs. In another world, I did find that the VT220 implementation of VT52 mode was not kind to the VTEDIT TECO macro on OS/8 (I ended up with a real VT52 so I "solved" that problem). -ethan From wilson at dbit.com Wed Mar 22 08:47:03 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 09:47:03 -0400 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170322134703.GA9183@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 09:23:52AM -0400, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >Putty seems to be a >repeat suggestion but it's not for my platforms. PuTTY interprets ESC [?7l in a weirdly wrong way -- instead of disabling autowrap (which is already a half-documented feature that's implemented differently on the VT100, VT101, and VT102, likely by accident), it makes autowrap work in a different, incorrect way. Editors trip over that since they can't be afraid to use column 80. John Wilson D Bit From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 09:04:23 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:04:23 +0100 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 21 March 2017 at 18:32, Ray Arachelian via cctalk wrote: > (And meanwhile AAPL is busy, or was, getting rid of all GPL stuff in its > OS.) Darwin is mostly BSD-licensed and includes significant quantities of code from FreeBSD, which is why Apple hired Jordan Hubbard. I'm not aware of any significant amount of GPL code in either. Linux has a regrettable history of nicking BSD-licensed code and slapping the GPL on it, but not the other way round, AFAIK. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 22 09:09:02 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 10:09:02 -0400 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <88B4D66E-E718-45B1-97E2-DAA9C3F7159E@comcast.net> > On Mar 22, 2017, at 10:04 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > ... > I'm not aware of any significant amount of GPL code in either. Linux > has a regrettable history of nicking BSD-licensed code and slapping > the GPL on it, but not the other way round, AFAIK. I think taking BSD code and releasing a copy under GPL is technically permitted, though silly because the original BSD release would still apply so the GPL virus doesn't stick. Of course, if you modify the original and license those mods under GPL, that makes a difference, that limits access to the mods (but only the mods). paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 22 09:46:03 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:46:03 +0000 Subject: Pair of Twiggys In-Reply-To: <88B4D66E-E718-45B1-97E2-DAA9C3F7159E@comcast.net> References: <20170315153721.2BAA718C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170315191007.GD3511@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <01QC0MP3EM4K002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> <4c4870cc-6fa7-8d83-93f9-092789d78894@telegraphics.com.au> , <88B4D66E-E718-45B1-97E2-DAA9C3F7159E@comcast.net> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 10:09 AM To: Liam Proven; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Pair of Twiggys > On Mar 22, 2017, at 10:04 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > ... > I'm not aware of any significant amount of GPL code in either. Linux > has a regrettable history of nicking BSD-licensed code and slapping > the GPL on it, but not the other way round, AFAIK. I think taking BSD code and releasing a copy under GPL is technically permitted, though silly because the original BSD release would still apply so the GPL virus doesn't stick. Of course, if you modify the original and license those mods under GPL, that makes a difference, that limits access to the mods (but only the mods). ______________________________________ As long as they retain the original Copyright notice as required by that Copyright which seems to me to be a direct conflict if you then tried to put the GPL in there too. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 22 12:47:33 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:47:33 +0000 Subject: booting os/8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of W2HX via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk at classiccmp.org) Subject: booting os/8 Hi folks, I have a PDP-8/e that I've been working on. I have completed construction of AK6DN's RX01/02 emulator. I got to the step tonight where I was trying to boot an OS/8 disk image and nothing was happening. I realized that I do not have the bootstrap diode board in my 8/e so begin the bootstrap triggered by the "SW" switch. Does anyone have the program I can toggle in for the bootloader? What I found is somewhat confusing. Here is a discussion on this topic. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.sys.pdp8/RX01$20boot|sort:relevance/alt.sys.pdp8/9-GCoA0PCLA/370T3R-Ru_AJ It seems one fellow was attempting to edit/improve the bootloader of another fellow. I was wondering if anyone has distilled this into something simple. At the moment, I care only about booting from RX01-Disk0. Any pointers greatly appreciated. Thanks Eugene W2HX ___________________________________________ Well, I am sure glad someone posted this. I had never heard of the work done by AK6DN and have considered looking into such a project in the past. So, has anyone looked at someting sililar for RL drives? bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 12:55:06 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 13:55:06 -0400 Subject: booting os/8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Well, I am sure glad someone posted this. I had never heard of the work done by AK6DN and have considered > looking into such a project in the past. > > So, has anyone looked at someting sililar for RL drives? > > bill > > > > I only know how to boot RK05 drives off an pdp8e. Do you have a controller, did not know there was one for this combo. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 22 14:57:57 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:57:57 -0500 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? Message-ID: <003301d2a346$9a5b5240$cf11f6c0$@classiccmp.org> Ethan wrote... ----- I'm following this thread because I too want a decent terminal emulator that works with a variety of vintage text editors (that seems to be the torture test) but for Linux or OS X. Putty seems to be a repeat suggestion but it's not for my platforms. ------ The most faithful vt100 emulation I've seen myself (not that I've done a big study or anything) is SecureCRT from Van Dyke. It is a commercial product, but about the only commercial product I've decided is worth the cost. I use it daily and pay for upgrades and new releases gladly. I do know that they came out with a version for OSX a while back. I expect that to be robust. There is a version for Linux, never tried that as I'm a FreeBSD zealot. There is also an iphone/ipad app by secureCRT and I've used it in a few pinches but never on a classic system. And the company has actually heard of VMS ;) Their support is off-the-charts. On more than one occasion I've emailed them asking for this or that... and several times I've seen it implemented on the next release. They actively listen and implement. If the linux and OSX and app versions are as good as the windows one... it's worth a shot. J From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Mar 22 16:30:40 2017 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:30:40 -0700 Subject: booting os/8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b8fb97b-2e0d-5417-dd18-e6b3764b2d86@alum.mit.edu> On 3/22/2017 10:47 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of W2HX via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:49 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk at classiccmp.org) > Subject: booting os/8 > > Hi folks, > > I have a PDP-8/e that I've been working on. I have completed construction of AK6DN's RX01/02 emulator. I got to the step tonight where I was trying to boot an OS/8 disk image and nothing was happening. I realized that I do not have the bootstrap diode board in my 8/e so begin the bootstrap triggered by the "SW" switch. > > Does anyone have the program I can toggle in for the bootloader? What I found is somewhat confusing. Here is a discussion on this topic. > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.sys.pdp8/RX01$20boot|sort:relevance/alt.sys.pdp8/9-GCoA0PCLA/370T3R-Ru_AJ > > It seems one fellow was attempting to edit/improve the bootloader of another fellow. I was wondering if anyone has distilled this into something simple. At the moment, I care only about booting from RX01-Disk0. > > Any pointers greatly appreciated. Thanks > Eugene W2HX > ___________________________________________ > > Well, I am sure glad someone posted this. I had never heard of the work done by AK6DN and have considered > looking into such a project in the past. > > So, has anyone looked at someting sililar for RL drives? > > bill Look here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/blog.php?12663-AK6DN for info on my Arduino based RX02 emulator using a microSD card. Works on RX11/RXV11/RX8E as RX01, RX211/RXV21/RX28 as RX02. Passes DEC hardware diagnostics. Reinhard has done an FPGA based RL01/2 drive emulator, see: http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html Don aka AK6DN From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Wed Mar 22 17:00:04 2017 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 18:00:04 -0400 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/22/2017 9:23 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > I'm following this thread because I too want a decent terminal > emulator that works with a variety of vintage text editors (that seems > to be the torture test) but for Linux or OS X. Putty seems to be a > repeat suggestion but it's not for my platforms. > > -ethan > On OS X 10.9 and 10.11 I've had pretty good results from a terminal emulator called Zoc from Em-Tec It's a guy in Germany and he has a couple products, but I think ZOC is his main thing. It runs on both Windows and OS X. It's not free ($79.99) but, for me it was better than anything else. I tried the current Ericon products for the Mac, and they aren't free either and are a considerable bit more expensive and WAY slower. ZOC is pretty fast. I also used ITerm/iTerm2 but neither of them could do serial ports. ZOC can talk to systems using many protocols, serial included. The author is good at communication and willing to discuss problems and fixes. I talked to him initially about some of the keyboard mapping and he was very good about it. For Linux I've always heard use xterm (Mac, too but I didn't want to run X windows if I didn't have to). John H. Reinhardt From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Mar 22 17:49:01 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:49:01 +1300 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E_Any?= =?UTF-8?Q?_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= Message-ID: Hi, I?ve posted this to the VCF too?apologies for cross-posting. I?d be grateful for any guidance or comments anyone could give me on this problem. Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch floppy disks. They want to see what?s on them, or at least to archive them. They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software was used to write the files. They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely. I?ve got little experience with 8 inch drives or disk formats. However I have got a bare 8 inch floppy drive (a Mitsubishi M2896-63 Half Height 8inch DSDD), and also a CP/M computer with 8 inch drives (A Panasonic JD-850M). I?m thinking it might be an interesting challenge/project to see if I can read these disks and get files off. However, I imagine given all the unknowns it won?t be easy?perhaps even impossible I see two possible approaches. One is to wire up the 8 inch drive to an MS-DOS machine. I?ll have to build/get a PSU for the drive so it can supply the necessary 24 Volts required. I?ll also have to make up a special drive cable. That info is available. In fact, Chuck gave me some tips a year or so ago. However, once I?ve got the drive successfully wired up, I then need to somehow analysis the disks to see what format they are in. Does anyone know of any software that will do this? I?m aware of disk22, for reading KNOWN CP/M formats but is there anything out there that will analyse a disk from scratch? Search the web has thrown up a few possibilies (MMCPC, Cpmtools) but I haven?t explored them at all. The second approach is to use the Panasonic JD-850M, and find a CP/M program that will analyse an ?unknown? 8 inch disk and read files from said disks into the CP/M environment. I?d somehow get the program into one of my Panasonic 8 inch disks (just how, I?ll need to figure out). I?d also need to figure out how to get the files out of that environment also. Anyway, has anyone else faced this kind of challenge and what are your thoughts? I don?t want to start unless I at least have some chance of success. I?m not hopeful. The more I read the more you seem to need real forensic skills and something like Kyroflux that works at low-level. Thanks Terry (Tez) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 22 18:05:31 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:05:31 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17b32ac4-3eaa-fe5e-d3e3-f5579e490a81@sydex.com> On 03/22/2017 03:49 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > Anyway, has anyone else faced this kind of challenge and what are > your thoughts? I don?t want to start unless I at least have some > chance of success. I?m not hopeful. The more I read the more you > seem to need real forensic skills and something like Kyroflux that > works at low-level. I do it all the time. There are more variations out there than you'd otherwise think. Not everything looks like DOS or CP/M, by a long shot. I just received a shipment of hard-sector Wang 8 inchers, along with a bunch of 8" soft-sector Displaywriter floppies. Neither is CP/M or DOS--or anything that Tandy ever built. If I don't know what's on the disk (i.e. unlabeled), I'll start by using an MS-DOS machine than can handle SD floppies--assuming that they're soft-sector. After that, I'll pull out my Catweasel-equipped system and crunch the raw pulses--you could be dealing with MMFM or GCR, for example. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 22 18:25:30 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:25:30 +0000 Subject: booting os/8 In-Reply-To: <2b8fb97b-2e0d-5417-dd18-e6b3764b2d86@alum.mit.edu> References: , <2b8fb97b-2e0d-5417-dd18-e6b3764b2d86@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Don North via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: booting os/8 On 3/22/2017 10:47 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of W2HX via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:49 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk at classiccmp.org) > Subject: booting os/8 > > Hi folks, > > I have a PDP-8/e that I've been working on. I have completed construction of AK6DN's RX01/02 emulator. I got to the step tonight where I was trying to boot an OS/8 disk image and nothing was happening. I realized that I do not have the bootstrap diode board in my 8/e so begin the bootstrap triggered by the "SW" switch. > > Does anyone have the program I can toggle in for the bootloader? What I found is somewhat confusing. Here is a discussion on this topic. > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.sys.pdp8/RX01$20boot|sort:relevance/alt.sys.pdp8/9-GCoA0PCLA/370T3R-Ru_AJ > > It seems one fellow was attempting to edit/improve the bootloader of another fellow. I was wondering if anyone has distilled this into something simple. At the moment, I care only about booting from RX01-Disk0. > > Any pointers greatly appreciated. Thanks > Eugene W2HX > ___________________________________________ > > Well, I am sure glad someone posted this. I had never heard of the work done by AK6DN and have considered > looking into such a project in the past. > > So, has anyone looked at someting sililar for RL drives? > > bill Look here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/blog.php?12663-AK6DN for info on my Arduino based RX02 emulator using a microSD card. Works on RX11/RXV11/RX8E as RX01, RX211/RXV21/RX28 as RX02. Passes DEC hardware diagnostics. Reinhard has done an FPGA based RL01/2 drive emulator, see: http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html Don aka AK6DN ______________________________________________ I saw that. I ordered a set of boards from OSHPark today. Once they come I will see about ordering the parts and building at least one. I may wish I had more controillers. :-) I will take a look at the FPGA solution. But I still have to ask, is there any reason why it could not be done with an Arduimo like the RX emulator? I haven't researched it deeply, but I never thought the RL drive itnerface was all that complex. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 22 18:42:16 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E_Any?= =?UTF-8?Q?_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch > floppy disks. They want to see what???s on them, or at least to archive > them. They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the > software was used to write the files. They may be CP/M, or some other > format entirely. > Anyway, has anyone else faced this kind of challenge and what are your > thoughts? I don???t want to start unless I at least have some chance of > success. I???m not hopeful. The more I read the more you seem to need real > forensic skills and something like Kyroflux that works at low-level. How much work are you willing to put into it? I used homemade tools to read and display sectors, but you can accomplish quite a bit with whatever tools you have. The PC is a relatively known quantity, and easy enough to work with. Your CP/M machine, unless you are real lucky and it's the same or 8" SSSD, is going to be a little harder, until you know what FDC your CP/M machine uses, at what addresses, etc. On machines with a Western Digital disk controller, such as TRS80 (try using Trakcess), it is possible to do a TRACK READ, and look at that. On machines with a flux transition board (kryoflux, catweasel, Central Point Option board), you can look at the raw image of the track. On the PC, try to read a sector. Even an MS-DOS DIR command gives some clues. If you get BIOS error #2 (Address Mark not found), then you have the wrong density or encoding. If you get BIOS error #4 (Sector Not Found), then you've got the right density. That means that it sees what it recognizes as being sectors; they just aren't the one that you asked for. If it is SD (FM) then SOME PC FDCs can read it, some not. If it is DD (MFM) and 128 bytes per sector, then some PC FDCs can read it, some not. If it is DD (MFM) and not 128 bytes per sector, then most PC FDCs can read it. If it is MMFM, GCR, or something else, then PC FDC can not do it. But a flux transition board (kryoflux, catweasel, etc.) might be able. With 22Disk, XenoCopy, ImageDisk, etc. try various formats. You MIGHT get lucky, particularly if it is 8" SSSD, but assuming that you don't get instant success, looking at what errors you get, you may be able to ascertain the bytes per sector, based on which formats don't balk at reading a sector. If it happens to be 512 bytes per sector, then you can write some minor code with INT13h to read sectors. If it is not 512 bytes per sector, then you will also need to hit INT1Eh. Once you know the bytes per sector, check for the number of sectors per track. There will only be a few possibilities for any given sector size. Check whether any sectors are readable on the second side of the disk. You can normally tell whether it is single or double sided by the position of the index hole on the disk, but there are some exceptions. Watch out, that some disks number sectors from 0, some from 1, and some have special numbering, such as numbering from 81h or having an invalid value in the head number field of the sector header (particularly on the second side). (All of which could give you BIOS error #4, but not error #2) Once you can read sectors, the very first sector is always interesting. It will typically contain the bootstrap loader, which often has a text message to display! Start looking for what might be the directory. On MS-DOS, that will USUALLY start in the first track, with a boot sector, FATs, then directory entries. On CP/M, it will USUALLY be in the first 3 or 4 tracks more often on the first side, but not always. On "Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC", it will be near the "seek center". Don Maslin once sent me copies of sectors near the middle of an NEC 8" disk. It was surprisingly easy to calculate from their content which sectors would contain each file. You may not find a recognizable or decipherable directory, in which case, you copy every sector, and start by looking for any strings of text. If no text, then look to see if any of it makes sense as machine language of whatever processor might be in the source machine. Be aware that a few disk formats, such as Superbrain, invert all of the bytes of each sector. Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to look at. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 22 18:57:17 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:57:17 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> On 03/22/2017 04:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to > look at. Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have? It uses Hebrew for its code set. Feel up to it? --Chuck From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Mar 22 19:03:40 2017 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:03:40 -0700 Subject: booting os/8 In-Reply-To: References: <2b8fb97b-2e0d-5417-dd18-e6b3764b2d86@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <47562c01-bd81-e215-d2af-2e556696d964@alum.mit.edu> On 3/22/2017 4:25 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Look here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/blog.php?12663-AK6DN for info on my Arduino based RX02 emulator using a microSD card. > Works on RX11/RXV11/RX8E as RX01, RX211/RXV21/RX28 as RX02. Passes DEC hardware diagnostics. > > Reinhard has done an FPGA based RL01/2 drive emulator, see: http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html > > Don > aka AK6DN > ______________________________________________ > > I saw that. I ordered a set of boards from OSHPark today. Once they come I will see about ordering the > parts and building at least one. I may wish I had more controillers. :-) > > I will take a look at the FPGA solution. But I still have to ask, is there any reason why it could not be done > with an Arduimo like the RX emulator? I haven't researched it deeply, but I never thought the RL drive > itnerface was all that complex. > > bill > If you are still interested I still have blank PCBs for $10 each (either 2n7K or 8641 based), plus Sparkfun microSD adapters $5 ea, and then shipping. OSHpark is good (I use them for proto) but it will cost you something like $75 for three boards since they are 4 layer. Let me know if you are interested. The RL0x interface is very different and requires some kind of high speed signal decoder to implement (Reinhard did it in an FPGA plus an embedded CPU). The RX0x interface is driven by the drive as the master, so no high speed logic is required on the Arduino side, just bit banging I/O ports. Don From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Mar 22 19:15:37 2017 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:15:37 -0700 Subject: booting os/8 In-Reply-To: <47562c01-bd81-e215-d2af-2e556696d964@alum.mit.edu> References: <2b8fb97b-2e0d-5417-dd18-e6b3764b2d86@alum.mit.edu> <47562c01-bd81-e215-d2af-2e556696d964@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 3/22/2017 5:03 PM, Don North wrote: > On 3/22/2017 4:25 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> Look here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/blog.php?12663-AK6DN for info on my >> Arduino based RX02 emulator using a microSD card. >> Works on RX11/RXV11/RX8E as RX01, RX211/RXV21/RX28 as RX02. Passes DEC >> hardware diagnostics. >> >> Reinhard has done an FPGA based RL01/2 drive emulator, see: >> http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html >> >> Don >> aka AK6DN >> ______________________________________________ >> >> I saw that. I ordered a set of boards from OSHPark today. Once they come I >> will see about ordering the >> parts and building at least one. I may wish I had more controillers. :-) >> >> I will take a look at the FPGA solution. But I still have to ask, is there >> any reason why it could not be done >> with an Arduimo like the RX emulator? I haven't researched it deeply, but I >> never thought the RL drive >> itnerface was all that complex. >> >> bill >> > > If you are still interested I still have blank PCBs for $10 each (either 2n7K > or 8641 based), plus Sparkfun microSD adapters $5 ea, and then shipping. > > OSHpark is good (I use them for proto) but it will cost you something like $75 > for three boards since they are 4 layer. Let me know if you are interested. > > The RL0x interface is very different and requires some kind of high speed > signal decoder to implement (Reinhard did it in an FPGA plus an embedded CPU). > > The RX0x interface is driven by the drive as the master, so no high speed > logic is required on the Arduino side, just bit banging I/O ports. > > Don > Just checked my stock ... I have (5) 8641 based PCB, and (10) 2n7k based PCB left, and corresponding microSD adapters. The 2n7K vs 8641 designs are functionally compatible (100% same software); the revised 2n7K design uses discrete transistor O.C. drivers and HCT14 RCVRs in place of the 3x8641 (which are more or less unobtanium at this point, unless you have a well stocked DEC stockroom). The two designs work the same, there is no discernible difference between them operationally. As an aside I source Arduino Mega2560s from Amazon, you can get 100% a 100% compatible clone for $10-$12 vs $45 for a 'genuine' Arduino Mega2560. Don From seefriek at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 20:26:38 2017 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 21:26:38 -0400 Subject: Z-8000 something on eBay Message-ID: I don't have any idea what this is but it appears to have Z-8000 CPU+MMU chips. Perhaps an Onyx or S8000 CPU card? I know some folks here are in to that sort of thing. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Vintage-DSC-MP-4-EPC-Rev-D-K-Expansion-Board-Card-PCB-for-Mini-Computer/152475939021 KJ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 22 20:58:54 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 18:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to >> look at. On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have? > It uses Hebrew for its code set. > Feel up to it? Nope. You're much better at it than I am. I was just trying to be encouraging, and suggesting some preliminary things that he could start with. Some disks were easy. And there were plenty that I never could figure out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From seefriek at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 21:07:49 2017 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:07:49 -0400 Subject: Sun E10000 Historical Enquiry Message-ID: > Heck, I'd be fascinated to talk to anyone who purchased > the machines during their lifespan (1997-2001) and could tell me what you > used them for. Not the e10k, but Cingular Wireless used clustered e15k's as Oracle database engines. Dozens of them. Very impressive performance. KJ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 22 21:26:39 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 02:26:39 +0000 Subject: Z-8000 something on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Its not an Olivetti M20 but might be a M30 or M40. These were Mini class machines. It would be towards the last of the Z8000 with a MMU. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ken Seefried via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 6:26:38 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Z-8000 something on eBay I don't have any idea what this is but it appears to have Z-8000 CPU+MMU chips. Perhaps an Onyx or S8000 CPU card? I know some folks here are in to that sort of thing. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Vintage-DSC-MP-4-EPC-Rev-D-K-Expansion-Board-Card-PCB-for-Mini-Computer/152475939021 KJ From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Wed Mar 22 22:32:16 2017 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (steve) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 01:32:16 -0200 Subject: =?utf-8?B?d2hhdCBhIGJlYXV0aWZ1bCBhbmQgYW1hemluZyBwbGFjZQ==?= Message-ID: <1826481146.20170323063216@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Dear friend! We've visited a really cozy and beautiful place, I'm sure you'll love it too, check it out http://display.504-n-park.com/bdbc Thx, steve From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Wed Mar 22 22:32:16 2017 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (steve) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 01:32:16 -0200 Subject: =?utf-8?B?d2hhdCBhIGJlYXV0aWZ1bCBhbmQgYW1hemluZyBwbGFjZQ==?= Message-ID: <1826481146.20170323063216@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Dear friend! We've visited a really cozy and beautiful place, I'm sure you'll love it too, check it out http://display.504-n-park.com/bdbc Thx, steve From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Mar 22 22:39:48 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:39:48 +1300 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFJlOiBFeHRyYWN0aW5nIGZpbGVzIG9mZiDigJx1bmtub3du4oCdIDggaW5jaCBkaQ==?= =?UTF-8?B?c2tzLiBBbnkgdGhvdWdodHPigKY=?= In-Reply-To: References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> Message-ID: Thanks Guys, Now I'm intimidated (-: Just kidding....that's useful stuff Fred. Thanks for taking the time to type all that out. I'll give it a go...and see what I can see. If anything it's a good excuse for me to wire the drive up. I'd like to image those Panasonic disks one day for posterity and at least I should be able to do that. Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these guys your email (-: Cheers Terry (Tez) On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to >>> look at. >>> >> > On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have? >> It uses Hebrew for its code set. >> Feel up to it? >> > > Nope. > You're much better at it than I am. > I was just trying to be encouraging, and suggesting some preliminary > things that he could start with. > > > Some disks were easy. > And there were plenty that I never could figure out. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 22:56:08 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:56:08 -0500 Subject: what a beautiful and amazing place In-Reply-To: <1826481146.20170323063216@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <1826481146.20170323063216@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: Uh oh, danger danger.. How did that get through? On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 10:32 PM, steve via cctalk wrote: > Dear friend! > > We've visited a really cozy and beautiful place, I'm sure you'll love it > too, check it out http://display.504-n-park.com/bdbc > > Thx, steve > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 22:56:08 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:56:08 -0500 Subject: what a beautiful and amazing place In-Reply-To: <1826481146.20170323063216@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <1826481146.20170323063216@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: Uh oh, danger danger.. How did that get through? On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 10:32 PM, steve via cctalk wrote: > Dear friend! > > We've visited a really cozy and beautiful place, I'm sure you'll love it > too, check it out http://display.504-n-park.com/bdbc > > Thx, steve > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 22 23:08:26 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 21:08:26 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 03/22/2017 08:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common > CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these > guys your email (-: Tez, Here's what I would do in your situation. If the disks are hard-sectored, forget it, unless you have the system that wrote them. If they're soft-sectored, dig through your pile of PC "tweeners" using Dave Dunfield's "TestFDC" and see if you can find one that does single-density. Then hook your 8" drive to the PC and use his ImageDisk to grab a copy. That way, you can tinker with the image to figure out what's going on. Failing that, you can pass the image to the list here and see if it rings any bells. http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Mar 23 00:20:31 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 00:20:31 -0500 Subject: what a beautiful and amazing place In-Reply-To: References: <1826481146.20170323063216@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: lol On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 10:56 PM, drlegendre . via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Uh oh, danger danger.. > > How did that get through? > > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 10:32 PM, steve via cctalk > wrote: > > > Dear friend! > > > > We've visited a really cozy and beautiful place, I'm sure you'll love > it > > too, check it out http://display.504-n-park.com/bdbc > > > > Thx, steve > > > > > From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 14:51:53 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 12:51:53 -0700 Subject: For Sale: STM Pied Piper "Portable Computer" Message-ID: I have for sale this fine STM Pied Piper, Z80 CP/M machine from Canada circa 1983. Please see details here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56872-STM-Pied-Piper-Portable-Computer&p=453120#post453120 Thanks! Sellam From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Mar 23 03:12:41 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 08:12:41 +0000 Subject: For Sale: STM Pied Piper "Portable Computer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22/03/2017 19:51, "cctalk" wrote: > I have for sale this fine STM Pied Piper, Z80 CP/M machine from Canada > circa 1983. Please see details here: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56872-STM-Pied-Piper-Portable-Comput > er&p=453120#post453120 I have several of these including the full disk set of 'Perfect' applications and diagnostics, demo disk etc. One of my jobs for last year was to image those disks but it took me so long to find them I never got one of those tuits we all need. If anyone buys this let me know and I'll see what's still readable. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Mar 23 04:12:13 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 02:12:13 -0700 Subject: Z-8000 something on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <019f0c0c-4717-caa7-8926-1a5504f17126@jwsss.com> On 3/22/2017 6:26 PM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > I don't have any idea what this is but it appears to have Z-8000 > CPU+MMU chips. Perhaps an Onyx or S8000 CPU card? I know some folks > here are in to that sort of thing. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Vintage-DSC-MP-4-EPC-Rev-D-K-Expansion-Board-Card-PCB-for-Mini-Computer/152475939021 > > KJ just guessing with the number of I/O's it may be a controller board of some sort for something which needed a lot of go power, or perhaps an embedded OS. The EPC part of the nomenclature kept hitting things made by Epson, so maybe it is a scanner or printer controller? The large number of connectors is what bothers me with respect to it being a part of a general purpose mini. I've not seen many with so many connectors of this type, and therefore cables coming to the main processor. And in a chassis type mounted mini that would be a huge mess of cables to run out of a card slot if it were a high performance controller. Can prove me wrong, but I'm guessing some sort of controller. thanks Jim From cube1 at charter.net Thu Mar 23 02:17:39 2017 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 02:17:39 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_i?= =?utf-8?Q?nch_disks._Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <61B9E37E-8815-4F37-9BBF-638D48BBF03C@charter.net> > On Mar 22, 2017, at 23:08, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > >> On 03/22/2017 08:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: >> >> Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common >> CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these >> guys your email (-: > > Tez, > > Here's what I would do in your situation. > > If the disks are hard-sectored, forget it, unless you have the system > that wrote them. > Not necessarily. For example, I have used a Catweasel board to recover hard sectored Data General floppies. But it is certainly much harder, particularly if the format is not known in advance. > If they're soft-sectored, dig through your pile of PC "tweeners" using > Dave Dunfield's "TestFDC" and see if you can find one that does > single-density. > > Then hook your 8" drive to the PC and use his ImageDisk to grab a copy. > > That way, you can tinker with the image to figure out what's going on. > Failing that, you can pass the image to the list here and see if it > rings any bells. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm > > --Chuck > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 23 03:36:19 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 21:36:19 +1300 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: <61B9E37E-8815-4F37-9BBF-638D48BBF03C@charter.net> References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> <61B9E37E-8815-4F37-9BBF-638D48BBF03C@charter.net> Message-ID: >Tez, >Here's what I would do in your situation. Excellent, thanks. Terry (Tez) On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Mar 22, 2017, at 23:08, Chuck Guzis via cctech > wrote: > > > >> On 03/22/2017 08:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common > >> CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these > >> guys your email (-: > > > > Tez, > > > > Here's what I would do in your situation. > > > > If the disks are hard-sectored, forget it, unless you have the system > > that wrote them. > > > > Not necessarily. For example, I have used a Catweasel board to recover > hard sectored Data General floppies. But it is certainly much harder, > particularly if the format is not known in advance. > > > > If they're soft-sectored, dig through your pile of PC "tweeners" using > > Dave Dunfield's "TestFDC" and see if you can find one that does > > single-density. > > > > Then hook your 8" drive to the PC and use his ImageDisk to grab a copy. > > > > That way, you can tinker with the image to figure out what's going on. > > Failing that, you can pass the image to the list here and see if it > > rings any bells. > > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 23 06:44:57 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:44:57 +0000 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks._Any?= =?Windows-1252?Q?_thoughts=85?= In-Reply-To: References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> , Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:08 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts? On 03/22/2017 08:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common > CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these > guys your email (-: Tez, Here's what I would do in your situation. If the disks are hard-sectored, forget it, unless you have the system that wrote them. If they're soft-sectored, dig through your pile of PC "tweeners" using Dave Dunfield's "TestFDC" and see if you can find one that does single-density. Then hook your 8" drive to the PC and use his ImageDisk to grab a copy. That way, you can tinker with the image to figure out what's going on. Failing that, you can pass the image to the list here and see if it rings any bells. http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm _______________________________________ Let's not forget UCSD-Pascal or RT-11. :-) Lot's of formats, some easier to recover than others. bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 23 08:37:34 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:37:34 +0000 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?Re:_Re:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks.?= =?Windows-1252?Q?_Any_thoughts=85?= In-Reply-To: References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> , Message-ID: What kind of science lab? There are a couple of different lab computers to do things like chemical analysis. It could be a number of different. things. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Terry Stewart via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:39:48 PM To: Fred Cisin; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts? Thanks Guys, Now I'm intimidated (-: Just kidding....that's useful stuff Fred. Thanks for taking the time to type all that out. I'll give it a go...and see what I can see. If anything it's a good excuse for me to wire the drive up. I'd like to image those Panasonic disks one day for posterity and at least I should be able to do that. Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these guys your email (-: Cheers Terry (Tez) On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to >>> look at. >>> >> > On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have? >> It uses Hebrew for its code set. >> Feel up to it? >> > > Nope. > You're much better at it than I am. > I was just trying to be encouraging, and suggesting some preliminary > things that he could start with. > > > Some disks were easy. > And there were plenty that I never could figure out. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 23 09:38:50 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 07:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks._Any?= =?Windows-1252?Q?_thoughts=85?= In-Reply-To: References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> , Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Let's not forget UCSD-Pascal or RT-11. :-) Lot's of formats, some easier to > recover than others. Let's start with determining the hardware aspects to see whether Terry's machines are capable of reading the disks. Deciphering the file system structures can come after we know whether it is going to be possible. UCSD p-system, for example, is trivially easy to do IFF it is a hardware compatible recording system. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 23 10:22:00 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 15:22:00 +0000 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_RE:_Extracting_files_off_=93unknown=94_8_inch_disks.?= =?Windows-1252?Q?_Any_thoughts=85?= In-Reply-To: References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> , , Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 10:38 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: RE: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts? On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Let's not forget UCSD-Pascal or RT-11. :-) Lot's of formats, some easier to > recover than others. Let's start with determining the hardware aspects to see whether Terry's machines are capable of reading the disks. Deciphering the file system structures can come after we know whether it is going to be possible. UCSD p-system, for example, is trivially easy to do IFF it is a hardware compatible recording system. _____________________________________ Well, I can throw my hat in the ring of people with the capabilites to read 8" floppies. Nothing set up at the moment, but I can set things up realtively easily if needed. bill From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Thu Mar 23 11:20:15 2017 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:20:15 +0000 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? Message-ID: Warren Toomey wrote: > are there any _good_ VT100 terminal emulators Another alternative is to get a used HP LX 200 palmtop computer. Its DataComm program has a good VT100 mode. Bob From isking at uw.edu Thu Mar 23 12:23:11 2017 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:23:11 -0700 Subject: Z-8000 something on eBay In-Reply-To: <019f0c0c-4717-caa7-8926-1a5504f17126@jwsss.com> References: <019f0c0c-4717-caa7-8926-1a5504f17126@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 2:12 AM, jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 3/22/2017 6:26 PM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > >> I don't have any idea what this is but it appears to have Z-8000 >> CPU+MMU chips. Perhaps an Onyx or S8000 CPU card? I know some folks >> here are in to that sort of thing. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Vintage-DSC-MP-4-EPC-Rev-D-K-Exp >> ansion-Board-Card-PCB-for-Mini-Computer/152475939021 >> >> KJ >> > just guessing with the number of I/O's it may be a controller board of > some sort for something which needed a lot of go power, or perhaps an > embedded OS. > > The EPC part of the nomenclature kept hitting things made by Epson, so > maybe it is a scanner or printer controller? > > The large number of connectors is what bothers me with respect to it being > a part of a general purpose mini. I've not seen many with so many > connectors of this type, and therefore cables coming to the main > processor. And in a chassis type mounted mini that would be a huge mess of > cables to run out of a card slot if it were a high performance controller. > > Can prove me wrong, but I'm guessing some sort of controller. > thanks > Jim > All of those connectors make me think it's some sort of comm controller. FWIW. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Mar 23 13:18:39 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:18:39 -0500 Subject: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? Message-ID: This had kept the prices on that model a bit higher. The serial port while smaller is easy to hack a cable for most connections you need. I guess it's not that way for the other models? I hear it very often for the lx-200 pretty exclusively. -------- Original message --------From: Robert Feldman via cctalk Date: 3/23/17 11:20 AM (GMT-06:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Any faithful VT100 Emulators? Warren Toomey wrote: > are there any _good_ VT100 terminal emulators Another alternative is to get a used HP LX 200 palmtop computer. Its DataComm program has a good VT100 mode. Bob From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 23 14:38:46 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 19:38:46 +0000 Subject: More interesting (?) stuff from my attic Message-ID: I have a couple more items for the auction block. Real, original, in good shape: DECWRITER III - LA120 OPERATOR REFERENCE CARD DIGITAL Alpha Architecture Handbook - Special Announbcement Edition - February 1992 - PRELIMINARY INMOS Limited occam 2 Reference Manual (ISBN: 0-13-629312-3 Prentice Hall) Any of them should fit in a USPS Flat Rate Envelope so figure less than $10 postage. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 23 14:57:07 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 19:57:07 +0000 Subject: More interesting (?) stuff from my attic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ________________________________________ A couple more. TU58 DECTape II Users Guide (EK-OTU58-UG-003) CMS11-K CARD READER - OPTION DESCRIPTION (JUNE 1977) CR11/CM11 card reader user's manual (EK-CR11-OP-001) RELEASE DESCRIPTION (SRD) SYSTEM V (WECO 301-909) (This one will not fit in an envelope so a bit more postage. bill From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 23 14:59:17 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:59:17 +1300 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFJFOiBFeHRyYWN0aW5nIGZpbGVzIG9mZiDigJx1bmtub3du4oCdIDggaW5jaCBkaQ==?= =?UTF-8?B?c2tzLiBBbnkgdGhvdWdodHPigKY=?= In-Reply-To: References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> Message-ID: >Let's start with determining the hardware aspects to see whether Terry's machines are capable of reading the disks. Yes, this is the first step for me. Last night I pulled out an MS-DOS 486 that seems capable. It can read/write single density according to TESTFDC. This is the machine I'll use. There will be a hiatus in the project while I get the connecting hardware organised. Then we will see what we will see. Hopefully the drive itself works. I don't know that for sure yet. Thanks for all comments and advice. Terry From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 23 15:12:25 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:12:25 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <17f16e13-a057-5e03-342d-400325308cea@sydex.com> On 03/23/2017 12:59 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > There will be a hiatus in the project while I get the connecting > hardware organised. Then we will see what we will see. Hopefully the > drive itself works. I don't know that for sure yet. For what it's worth, unless you're intent on *writing* 8" single-density floppies on the PC, the interconnect between the 8" drive 50-conductor cable and the PC 34-conductor one is pretty straightforward. You don't need a FDADAP board for that, although it's very convenient. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 23 15:19:01 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay: PDP-11/70 backplane? Message-ID: <20170323201901.E875418C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This: http://www.ebay.com/itm/252820125010 looks like it might be an -11/70 backplane, but I'm too lazy to look up the part number. Noel From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 23 15:20:01 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 09:20:01 +1300 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= Message-ID: >For what it's worth, unless you're intent on *writing* 8" single-density >floppies on the PC, the interconnect between the 8" drive 50-conductor >cable and the PC 34-conductor one is pretty straightforward. You don't >need a FDADAP board for that, although it's very convenient. Yes, and I'm all for convenience given that reading these things will be a challenge enough. I've ordered an FDADAP board and also an FDDC power converter. http://www.dbit.com/fddc.html http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html Now I just has to wait a week or two for them to arrive! Terry (Tez) From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Mar 23 15:27:10 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 21:27:10 +0100 Subject: eBay: PDP-11/70 backplane? In-Reply-To: <20170323201901.E875418C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170323201901.E875418C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170323202709.GB15948@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 04:19:01PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > This: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/252820125010 > > looks like it might be an -11/70 backplane, but I'm too lazy to look up the > part number. > > Noel The 11/70 backplane is wirewrapped. If that is an 11/70 backplane.. it requires some work :) /P From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Mar 23 15:32:18 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:32:18 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknow?= =?UTF-8?Q?n=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks._Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> <17f16e13-a057-5e03-342d-400325308cea@sydex.com> Message-ID: <76EAD467EA14439E86AA40AA2E745B98@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts? > On 03/23/2017 12:59 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > >> There will be a hiatus in the project while I get the connecting >> hardware organised. Then we will see what we will see. Hopefully the >> drive itself works. I don't know that for sure yet. > > For what it's worth, unless you're intent on *writing* 8" single-density > floppies on the PC, the interconnect between the 8" drive 50-conductor > cable and the PC 34-conductor one is pretty straightforward. You don't > need a FDADAP board for that, although it's very convenient. > > --Chuck > -------- I was just going to suggest the same thing, but I see you (Tez) are going the FDADAP route; more convenient for sure. But the majority of the 34- and 50-pin signals actually line up 1 to 1 when aligned pin 34 to pin 50; as a matter of fact I have a system that uses the same 34-pin cable to connect to both, with just a jumper or two to select 5 or 8" (the index signal is one IIRC). m From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 23 15:59:13 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:59:13 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: <76EAD467EA14439E86AA40AA2E745B98@310e2> References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> <17f16e13-a057-5e03-342d-400325308cea@sydex.com> <76EAD467EA14439E86AA40AA2E745B98@310e2> Message-ID: <20c19adc-71d3-c007-63c6-ee8c424d41a5@sydex.com> On 03/23/2017 01:32 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > I was just going to suggest the same thing, but I see you (Tez) are > going the FDADAP route; more convenient for sure. > > But the majority of the 34- and 50-pin signals actually line up 1 to > 1 when aligned pin 34 to pin 50; as a matter of fact I have a system > that uses the same 34-pin cable to connect to both, with just a > jumper or two to select 5 or 8" (the index signal is one IIRC). I've still got a couple of the Microsolutions "adapter cards" with 50- and 34-pin headers. They work in reverse as well. --Chuck From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Mar 23 16:07:26 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 21:07:26 +0000 Subject: eBay: PDP-11/70 backplane? In-Reply-To: <20170323202709.GB15948@Update.UU.SE> References: <20170323201901.E875418C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <20170323202709.GB15948@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Van: Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk Verzonden: donderdag 23 maart 2017 21:27 Aan: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: eBay: PDP-11/70 backplane? On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 04:19:01PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > This: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/252820125010 > > looks like it might be an -11/70 backplane, but I'm too lazy to look up the > part number. > > Noel The 11/70 backplane is wirewrapped. If that is an 11/70 backplane.. it requires some work :) /P AFAIK, the 11/70 backplane is about that size, but it consists of *two* separate backplanes with lots of fragile wiring between the 2 halves. Further, I am ?missing? a few MOLEX connectors on the top side. My guess, this is NOT an 11/70 backplane ? but what it is ?? From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 23 16:15:27 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 14:15:27 -0700 Subject: eBay: PDP-11/70 backplane? In-Reply-To: References: <20170323201901.E875418C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170323202709.GB15948@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <07D956EC-4335-405C-B988-4007EE06AFA6@shiresoft.com> > On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > > AFAIK, the 11/70 backplane is about that size, but it consists of *two* > separate backplanes with lots of fragile wiring between the 2 halves. > Further, I am ?missing? a few MOLEX connectors on the top side. > My guess, this is NOT an 11/70 backplane ? but what it is ?? 11/70 memory box backplane? Seems about the right size and the molex connectors on the edge seem to be in the right places. I?m however, not sure about the mounting brackets on each end. TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 23 16:36:58 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 17:36:58 -0400 Subject: eBay: PDP-11/70 backplane? In-Reply-To: <07D956EC-4335-405C-B988-4007EE06AFA6@shiresoft.com> References: <20170323201901.E875418C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170323202709.GB15948@Update.UU.SE> <07D956EC-4335-405C-B988-4007EE06AFA6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 5:15 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > 11/70 memory box backplane? Seems about the right size and the > molex connectors on the edge seem to be in the right places. I?m > however, not sure about the mounting brackets on each end. ISTR the MOS memory box should have room for 16X M8728 256KB memory boards (4MB) and 2? non memory boards (I haven't looked in mine in a long time). 4MB of memory total, but I'm forgetting if it's 2MB per box or 2MB per backplane in the same box or 4MB on one backplane... -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 23 17:26:56 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:26:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay: PDP-11/70 backplane? Message-ID: <20170323222656.93DF018C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pontus Pihlgren > The 11/70 backplane is wirewrapped. Oh, right you are! I don't know where my brain has fled to these days! It's actually an MJ11 (-11/70 core memory) backplane (I checked the part number - plus someone pointed out that you can see "MJ11" written somewhere). Noel From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Mar 23 17:45:30 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:45:30 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknow?= =?UTF-8?Q?n=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks._Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= References: <3602b5ab-37ae-cdbc-c594-e0f93c81411f@sydex.com> <17f16e13-a057-5e03-342d-400325308cea@sydex.com> <76EAD467EA14439E86AA40AA2E745B98@310e2> <20c19adc-71d3-c007-63c6-ee8c424d41a5@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6F806520B47B4CA9A2249B4F9FD533A1@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" To: Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts? > On 03/23/2017 01:32 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > >> I was just going to suggest the same thing, but I see you (Tez) are >> going the FDADAP route; more convenient for sure. >> >> But the majority of the 34- and 50-pin signals actually line up 1 to >> 1 when aligned pin 34 to pin 50; as a matter of fact I have a system >> that uses the same 34-pin cable to connect to both, with just a >> jumper or two to select 5 or 8" (the index signal is one IIRC). > > > I've still got a couple of the Microsolutions "adapter cards" with 50- > and 34-pin headers. They work in reverse as well. > > --Chuck > ---------------- ... And for the 24VDC I use these: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/150W-DC-DC-Boost-Converter-10-32V-to-12-35V-6A-Step-Up-Power-supply-module-/141316770525?hash=item20e722cadd:g:V2UAAOSw5cNYgyC5 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 23 17:51:54 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:51:54 -0400 Subject: eBay: PDP-11/70 backplane? In-Reply-To: <20170323222656.93DF018C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170323222656.93DF018C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 6:26 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > It's actually an MJ11 (-11/70 core memory) backplane (I checked the part > number - plus someone pointed out that you can see "MJ11" written somewhere). Oh, is _that_ what the red chicken-scratches on the label say? I couldn't quite make out the option name, but it does kinda look like "MJ11". -ethan From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Mar 23 18:01:48 2017 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:01:48 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunkn?= =?UTF-8?Q?own=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks._Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= Message-ID: Chuck, Are these dumb adapters that just convert 34 to 50 or do they so more then that? Thanks. -Ali -------- Original message -------- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Date: 3/23/17 1:59 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Extracting files off ?unknown? 8 inch disks. Any thoughts? On 03/23/2017 01:32 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > I was just going to suggest the same thing, but I see you (Tez) are > going the FDADAP route; more convenient for sure. > > But the majority of the 34- and 50-pin signals actually line up 1 to >? 1 when aligned pin 34 to pin 50; as a matter of fact I have a system > that uses the same 34-pin cable to connect to both, with just a > jumper or two to select 5 or 8" (the index signal is one IIRC). I've still got a couple of the Microsolutions "adapter cards" with 50- and 34-pin headers.?? They work in reverse as well. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 23 18:53:59 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:53:59 +1300 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One other question regarding using this MS-DOS 486 to run an 8 inch floppy drive when attempting to read/imaging etc.of a god-knows-what format. What should I set the BIOS to? Should it be the 1.2MB 5.25 setting? Do I need to even worry about the bios if I don't want to boot off the 8 inch disk? Terry (Tez) From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Mar 23 18:57:45 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:57:45 -0700 Subject: GImix Ghost Video Board Message-ID: <00f201d2a431$45374ad0$cfa5e070$@bettercomputing.net> Hoping someone might be able to help me on this. I got a Gimix Ghost SS50 video board today and was trying to find a manual. I'm sure these were used in Gimix's own ghost systems but the very limited info I've come across out there suggests they may have worked with any SS50 system. It basically provides a direct composite video feed out from the computer, I assume bypassing the need for a terminal. I plugged it in and fired it up on my SWTPC 6800 and it is working - I think - it generates a full screen of readable random characters. However it does not put up anything from the computer - that still goes out via terminal. I'm assuming Ghost systems were wired up somehow to use this.. I'm hoping to find a manual that explains how. I don't see a keyboard interface for it anywhere so maybe this went along as a complete Ghost system with hardware I don't have. Thanks if you have anything! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 23 20:32:37 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:32:37 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54f1bcdd-3624-5cdf-ac96-3f8939a99970@sydex.com> On 03/23/2017 04:53 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > One other question regarding using this MS-DOS 486 to run an 8 inch > floppy drive when attempting to read/imaging etc.of a god-knows-what > format. > > What should I set the BIOS to? Should it be the 1.2MB 5.25 setting? > Do I need to even worry about the bios if I don't want to boot off > the 8 inch disk? If you're using ImageDisk or 22Disk or most other direct-controller-access utilities, it doesn't matter; the BIOS doesn't play a part in the overall scheme. If you want to goof around with it with DOS native utilities, you can set the drive type to 1.2M 5.25". Just note that the drive will always be in high-density mode. No 360K mode. --Chuck From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Mar 23 22:06:13 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 00:06:13 -0300 Subject: Reparando um Vectrex Message-ID: Oba, post novo no blog! / New post on blog http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2017/03/consertando-um-vectrex-com-um-defeito.html --- From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 00:50:37 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 00:50:37 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunkn?= =?UTF-8?Q?own=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks._Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= Message-ID: For the record, I and I'm sure lots of others look forward to this blog of experience. -------- Original message --------From: Terry Stewart via cctalk One other question regarding using this MS-DOS 486 to run an 8 inch floppu From ed at groenenberg.net Thu Mar 23 15:28:07 2017 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 21:28:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: eBay: PDP-11/70 backplane? In-Reply-To: <20170323201901.E875418C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170323201901.E875418C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55685.10.10.10.2.1490300887.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> It is the MK11 MOS Memory box backplane, not the cpu backplane which is bigger (and has lots of twisted pair wiring). Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1Lk6141nvDKPxtCa5erfFyovsoJN2LKqNJ On Thu, March 23, 2017 21:19, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > This: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/252820125010 > > looks like it might be an -11/70 backplane, but I'm too lazy to look up > the > part number. > > Noel > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 23 16:12:22 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 17:12:22 -0400 Subject: Seeking schematics/maintenance prints for DMB32/T1012 and H3033 distribution panel Message-ID: Hi, All, With all the recent chatter on the VAX8200 on the simh list, I was motivated to dust mine off and do a little digging. I finally took the plunge and got a DMB32 (right now, all I have are the 4 built-in console ports) but while it was easy enough to find the 8.5"x11"-format user guide and technical manual which describe registers and installation and problem diagnosis, I also want the internal cable pinouts and schematics. I know it's harder to find post-Unibus-era C-sized prints since DEC stopped shipping printsets with every order, so I have to ask, does anyone have any schematics for either the T1012 module, the H3033 I/O bulkhead board, or both? I can likely quickly recreate the schematic for the H3033, it's 10 D-shell connectors (8x DB, 1x DC, 1xDD) and 6 30-pin ribbon cable connectors. Lots of signals, but lots of repetition. The D-shell pinouts are in the documenation I already have. The 30-pin connectors/BI fingers are not. But if the schematics are already available, I don't have to buzz one out. http://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/dec/dmb32ug1.pdf http://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/dec/dmb32td1.pdf ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/vax/vaxbi/EY-5554E-SG-0002_VAXBI_Adapters_Student_Guide_Feb87.pdf Thanks for any new docs. -ethan From jws-gmail at jwsss.com Thu Mar 23 18:03:29 2017 From: jws-gmail at jwsss.com (jws-gmail) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:03:29 -0700 Subject: eBay: PDP-11/70 backplane? In-Reply-To: References: <20170323222656.93DF018C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 3/23/2017 3:51 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Oh, is_that_ what the red chicken-scratches on the label say? One needs to be an old hen or a rooster to read such, or have chicken sunglasses. From louis.lipp at gmail.com Thu Mar 23 23:12:27 2017 From: louis.lipp at gmail.com (Louis Lipp) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 01:12:27 -0300 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Que top Taba! ? bem complexo! 2017-03-24 0:06 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Souza : > > Oba, post novo no blog! / New post on blog > > http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2017/03/ > consertando-um-vectrex-com-um-defeito.html > > --- > > > > > -- > -- > Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 24 01:37:39 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 23:37:39 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Extracting_files_off_=e2=80=9cunknown=e2=80=9d_8_inch?= =?UTF-8?Q?_disks._Any_thoughts=e2=80=a6?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71c62049-d4de-38b4-40be-b21302af6cbb@sydex.com> On 03/23/2017 10:50 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > For the record, I and I'm sure lots of others look forward to this > blog of experience. -------- Original message --------From: Terry > Stewart via cctalk One other question > regarding using this MS-DOS 486 to run an 8 inch floppy I'll add one more note that an 8" drive supports 77 tracks/cylinders, where a 5.25" high-density drive supports 80. So be careful. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 04:16:38 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 09:16:38 -0000 Subject: GImix Ghost Video Board In-Reply-To: <00f201d2a431$45374ad0$cfa5e070$@bettercomputing.net> References: <00f201d2a431$45374ad0$cfa5e070$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <005b01d2a47f$5822e750$0868b5f0$@outlook.com> Is it one that's in the catalogue here:- http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/gimix/Gimix_Catalog_Jun82.pdf Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H via > cctalk > Sent: 23 March 2017 23:58 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: GImix Ghost Video Board > > Hoping someone might be able to help me on this. > > > > I got a Gimix Ghost SS50 video board today and was trying to find a manual. > I'm sure these were used in Gimix's own ghost systems but the very limited > info I've come across out there suggests they may have worked with any > SS50 system. It basically provides a direct composite video feed out from the > computer, I assume bypassing the need for a terminal. I plugged it in and > fired it up on my SWTPC 6800 and it is working - I think - it generates a full > screen of readable random characters. However it does not put up anything > from the computer - that still goes out via terminal. I'm assuming Ghost > systems were wired up somehow to use this.. I'm hoping to find a manual > that explains how. I don't see a keyboard interface for it anywhere so maybe > this went along as a complete Ghost system with hardware I don't have. > > > > Thanks if you have anything! > > From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 05:10:19 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 11:10:19 +0100 Subject: More interesting (?) stuff from my attic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > CMS11-K CARD READER - OPTION DESCRIPTION (JUNE 1977) > > CR11/CM11 card reader user's manual (EK-CR11-OP-001) > > Has someone taken care of the Card reader manuals? I tried to find them on bitsavers but didn't find them. Unless they are already taken care of I could pay shipping to Sweden and scan them. If they are in fact taken care of I kindly ask for a copy of a scan. /Mattis From hachti at hachti.de Fri Mar 24 09:04:51 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 15:04:51 +0100 Subject: More interesting (?) stuff from my attic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 03/24/2017 11:10 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> CMS11-K CARD READER - OPTION DESCRIPTION (JUNE 1977) >> >> CR11/CM11 card reader user's manual (EK-CR11-OP-001) >Has someone taken care of the Card reader manuals? I tried to find them on > bitsavers but didn't find them. > > Unless they are already taken care of I could pay shipping to Sweden and > scan them. If they are in fact taken care of I kindly ask for a copy of a > scan. Would be very nice if they make their way to bitsavers! :-) From stefano.baron at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 06:40:21 2017 From: stefano.baron at gmail.com (Stefano Baron) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:40:21 -0300 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6EB94302-1DE5-43F7-A6AA-F9B7FE76BA5D@gmail.com> Excelente post!!! Taba ? o cara! > Em 24 de mar de 2017, ?s 01:12, Louis Lipp escreveu: > > Que top Taba! ? bem complexo! > > 2017-03-24 0:06 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Souza : >> >> Oba, post novo no blog! / New post on blog >> >> http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2017/03/consertando-um-vectrex-com-um-defeito.html >> >> --- >> >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! > > -- > -- > Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 24 09:42:36 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 14:42:36 +0000 Subject: More interesting (?) stuff from my attic In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 10:04 AM To: Mattis Lind; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: More interesting (?) stuff from my attic On 03/24/2017 11:10 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> CMS11-K CARD READER - OPTION DESCRIPTION (JUNE 1977) >> >> CR11/CM11 card reader user's manual (EK-CR11-OP-001) >Has someone taken care of the Card reader manuals? I tried to find them on > bitsavers but didn't find them. > > Unless they are already taken care of I could pay shipping to Sweden and > scan them. If they are in fact taken care of I kindly ask for a copy of a > scan. Would be very nice if they make their way to bitsavers! :-) ______________________________________________ Yes, it would. But I do not have the facilities to scan them without destroying them and being as I am trying to sell them to raise money to buy more toys, I am unlikely to destroy them. The next owner is free to do so if they wish. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 24 10:02:25 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 11:02:25 -0400 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: <6EB94302-1DE5-43F7-A6AA-F9B7FE76BA5D@gmail.com> References: <6EB94302-1DE5-43F7-A6AA-F9B7FE76BA5D@gmail.com> Message-ID: This sudden flurry of spam is puzzling. paul > On Mar 24, 2017, at 7:40 AM, Stefano Baron via cctalk wrote: > > Excelente post!!! > Taba ? o cara! > >> Em 24 de mar de 2017, ?s 01:12, Louis Lipp escreveu: >> >> Que top Taba! ? bem complexo! >> >> 2017-03-24 0:06 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Souza : >>> >>> Oba, post novo no blog! / New post on blog >>> >>> http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2017/03/consertando-um-vectrex-com-um-defeito.html >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! >> >> -- >> -- >> Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! From hachti at hachti.de Fri Mar 24 10:13:42 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:13:42 +0100 Subject: More interesting (?) stuff from my attic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A97DF10-B7F8-42BF-BD4C-01A8036F410F@hachti.de> Hm, scanning does not necessarily translate to destroying as far as I know. I sometimes unstaple stuff for scanning. And then I staple it again (have equipment). Von meinem iPhone gesendet > Am 24.03.2017 um 15:42 schrieb Bill Gunshannon : > > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 10:04 AM > To: Mattis Lind; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: More interesting (?) stuff from my attic > > On 03/24/2017 11:10 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >>> CMS11-K CARD READER - OPTION DESCRIPTION (JUNE 1977) >>> >>> CR11/CM11 card reader user's manual (EK-CR11-OP-001) >> Has someone taken care of the Card reader manuals? I tried to find them on >> bitsavers but didn't find them. >> >> Unless they are already taken care of I could pay shipping to Sweden and >> scan them. If they are in fact taken care of I kindly ask for a copy of a >> scan. > > Would be very nice if they make their way to bitsavers! > > :-) > ______________________________________________ > > Yes, it would. But I do not have the facilities to scan them without destroying > them and being as I am trying to sell them to raise money to buy more toys, > I am unlikely to destroy them. The next owner is free to do so if they wish. > > bill From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 10:18:23 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:18:23 -0300 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: <6EB94302-1DE5-43F7-A6AA-F9B7FE76BA5D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Spam? Me? Why?# :oO Enviado do meu Tele-Movel On Mar 24, 2017 12:01 PM, "Paul Koning via cctalk" wrote: > This sudden flurry of spam is puzzling. > > paul > > > On Mar 24, 2017, at 7:40 AM, Stefano Baron via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Excelente post!!! > > Taba ? o cara! > > > >> Em 24 de mar de 2017, ?s 01:12, Louis Lipp > escreveu: > >> > >> Que top Taba! ? bem complexo! > >> > >> 2017-03-24 0:06 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Souza >: > >>> > >>> Oba, post novo no blog! / New post on blog > >>> > >>> http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2017/03/consertando-um- > vectrex-com-um-defeito.html > >>> > >>> --- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> -- > >>> Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! > >> > >> -- > >> -- > >> Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 24 10:25:45 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 11:25:45 -0400 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: <6EB94302-1DE5-43F7-A6AA-F9B7FE76BA5D@gmail.com> Message-ID: It sure has the signature of spam. A link to some random place, without explanation of what it is, text in Portuguese when the list uses English... paul > On Mar 24, 2017, at 11:18 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Spam? Me? Why?# :oO > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > > On Mar 24, 2017 12:01 PM, "Paul Koning via cctalk" > wrote: > This sudden flurry of spam is puzzling. > > paul > > > On Mar 24, 2017, at 7:40 AM, Stefano Baron via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Excelente post!!! > > Taba ? o cara! > > > >> Em 24 de mar de 2017, ?s 01:12, Louis Lipp > escreveu: > >> > >> Que top Taba! ? bem complexo! > >> > >> 2017-03-24 0:06 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Souza >: > >>> > >>> Oba, post novo no blog! / New post on blog > >>> > >>> http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2017/03/consertando-um-vectrex-com-um-defeito.html > >>> > >>> --- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> -- > >>> Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! > >> > >> -- > >> -- > >> Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 10:34:44 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:34:44 -0300 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: <6EB94302-1DE5-43F7-A6AA-F9B7FE76BA5D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well...there is some description in english, google translate is a very useful tool and the post has a pertinent video. I cannot view it as spam. Anyway...sorry for bothering :) Enviado do meu Tele-Movel On Mar 24, 2017 12:25 PM, "Paul Koning" wrote: > It sure has the signature of spam. A link to some random place, without > explanation of what it is, text in Portuguese when the list uses English... > > paul > > On Mar 24, 2017, at 11:18 AM, Alexandre Souza < > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > Spam? Me? Why?# :oO > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > > On Mar 24, 2017 12:01 PM, "Paul Koning via cctalk" > wrote: > >> This sudden flurry of spam is puzzling. >> >> paul >> >> > On Mar 24, 2017, at 7:40 AM, Stefano Baron via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> > Excelente post!!! >> > Taba ? o cara! >> > >> >> Em 24 de mar de 2017, ?s 01:12, Louis Lipp >> escreveu: >> >> >> >> Que top Taba! ? bem complexo! >> >> >> >> 2017-03-24 0:06 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Souza < >> alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com>: >> >>> >> >>> Oba, post novo no blog! / New post on blog >> >>> >> >>> http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2017/03/ >> consertando-um-vectrex-com-um-defeito.html >> >>> >> >>> --- >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> -- >> >>> Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! >> >> >> >> -- >> >> -- >> >> Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! >> >> > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 10:43:26 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:43:26 +0100 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex Message-ID: On 24 March 2017 at 16:34, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: > Well...there is some description in english, google translate is a very > useful tool and the post has a pertinent video. I cannot view it as spam. > Anyway...sorry for bothering :) > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > > On Mar 24, 2017 12:25 PM, "Paul Koning" wrote: > >> It sure has the signature of spam. A link to some random place, without >> explanation of what it is, text in Portuguese when the list uses English... Your spam-o-meter isn't accurate.. mine didn't trigger. It isn't spam, so it's clearly functional. Subject is 'Reparando um Vectrex', which hardly needs any additional translation. Body said 'New post on blog'. Blog looks good. Poster is Alexandre, old-timer on the list. All items ticked OK, all good. From bulk at blit.ca Fri Mar 24 11:19:18 2017 From: bulk at blit.ca (Chris Reuter) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:19:18 +0000 Subject: Looking to rehome an Atari ST Colour monitor Message-ID: <20170324161918.GA4143@blit.ca> Hi folks, I have an Atari colour monitor for the ST series of computers that I'm looking to rehome. Model number is SC 1224, Version 2. I've never attempted to power it up and have no idea if it works. It's free to a good home, provided I don't have to put in a lot of effort. (I'm currently in the middle of packing for a move; I have very little spare time or energy.) I'm in the Toronto area. If anyone wants it, let me know. --Chris -- Chris Reuter http://www.blit.ca "Oh God Lem, you're using science for no good. We took an *oath* we would try to do that less." --Better Off Ted From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 24 11:44:37 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's Message-ID: <20170324164437.B015C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So all the DEUNA's I've seen have L10 (ceramic package, 10Mhz) 68K's in them. Has anyone tried using anything else, and did it work? I _assume_ an x12 would work, but until someone has acutally tried it... The Pxx's (plastic packaging) might not work - according to the datasheet, they are 2mm wider than the ceramics (why, I have no idea - it probably means they aren't interchangeable, which makes no sense at all to me). Noel From wilson at dbit.com Fri Mar 24 12:19:26 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:19:26 -0400 Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's In-Reply-To: <20170324164437.B015C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170324164437.B015C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170324171926.GA9082@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:44:37PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >So all the DEUNA's I've seen have L10 (ceramic package, 10Mhz) 68K's in them. >Has anyone tried using anything else, and did it work? > >I _assume_ an x12 would work, but until someone has acutally tried it... I don't know, but isn't the DEUNA T11-based? So I think this is DELUA? I'm getting old ... could have it wrong. Anyway I'd be inclined to just try it. How is a slightly-wrong CPU likely to do more damage than the definitely-fried CPU (right?) that's in there now? John Wilson D Bit From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 24 12:43:43 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's Message-ID: <20170324174343.B0A1C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Wilson > I think this is DELUA? Yes, that's right - sorry! > I'm getting old ... could have it wrong. No, _I_'m the one who's getting old! (But in this case, that's not it - I always get the names of those two mixed up!) > I'd be inclined to just try it. I hadn't bought anything yet... :-) In particular, there's a source of really cheap P12's, but if the 2mm width difference means the Pxx's won't fit, no use paying good money for them, right? > the definitely-fried CPU (right?) that's in there now? The definitely-missing CPU that's not in there now, actually! ;-) Noel From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Mar 24 12:57:50 2017 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 10:57:50 -0700 Subject: GImix Ghost Video Board Message-ID: No.. mine has a 2513 character generator.. the one in the ad uses ram based character generation. ?Based on IC dates my board looks like mid to late 70s.. a fair bit earlier than that one. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Date: 2017-03-24 2:16 AM (GMT-08:00) To: 'Brad H' , "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: RE: GImix Ghost Video Board Is it one that's in the catalogue here:- http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/gimix/Gimix_Catalog_Jun82.pdf Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H via > cctalk > Sent: 23 March 2017 23:58 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: GImix Ghost Video Board > > Hoping someone might be able to help me on this. > > > > I got a Gimix Ghost SS50 video board today and was trying to find a manual. > I'm sure these were used in Gimix's own ghost systems but the very limited > info I've come across out there suggests they may have worked with any > SS50 system.? It basically provides a direct composite video feed out from the > computer, I assume bypassing the need for a terminal.? I plugged it in and > fired it up on my SWTPC 6800 and it is working - I think - it generates a full > screen of readable random characters.? However it does not put up anything > from the computer - that still goes out via terminal.? I'm assuming Ghost > systems were wired up somehow to use this.. I'm hoping to find a manual > that explains how.? I don't see a keyboard interface for it anywhere so maybe > this went along as a complete Ghost system with hardware I don't have. > > > > Thanks if you have anything! > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 24 13:01:43 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 18:01:43 +0000 Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's In-Reply-To: <20170324174343.B0A1C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170324174343.B0A1C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 1:43 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: MC68K's on DEUNA's > From: John Wilson > I think this is DELUA? Yes, that's right - sorry! > I'm getting old ... could have it wrong. No, _I_'m the one who's getting old! (But in this case, that's not it - I always get the names of those two mixed up!) > I'd be inclined to just try it. I hadn't bought anything yet... :-) In particular, there's a source of really cheap P12's, but if the 2mm width difference means the Pxx's won't fit, no use paying good money for them, right? > the definitely-fried CPU (right?) that's in there now? The definitely-missing CPU that's not in there now, actually! ;-) Noel __________________________________________ Considering that I have never seen any sockets that were 2mm different in width or length I really can't imagine any CPU not fitting. I doubt Motorolla was in the business of custom making different size chips, even for DEC. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 24 13:06:09 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 14:06:09 -0400 Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's In-Reply-To: <20170324164437.B015C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170324164437.B015C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1C40944A-5D30-4D52-B9E8-2346720B3020@comcast.net> > On Mar 24, 2017, at 12:44 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > So all the DEUNA's I've seen have L10 (ceramic package, 10Mhz) 68K's in them. > Has anyone tried using anything else, and did it work? > > I _assume_ an x12 would work, but until someone has acutally tried it... > > The Pxx's (plastic packaging) might not work - according to the datasheet, > they are 2mm wider than the ceramics (why, I have no idea - it probably means > they aren't interchangeable, which makes no sense at all to me). I looked at the 68000 User Manual on the NXP website, which has package dimensions in chapter 11: http://www.nxp.com/assets/documents/data/en/reference-manuals/MC68000UM.pdf It shows two 48-pin packages (ceramic and plastic). The package bodies are not the same width, but that is irrelevant. The dimension that matters is the pin spacing (dimension "L" in those drawings) which is 0.600 inches in both cases. Similarly, the 64 pin packages have different body width but the same lead spacing (0.900 inches). The reason the body widths differ is that in the plastic package, the pins come out horizontally and are then bent down outside the body, so the bend radius adds to the pin spacing. In the ceramic package, the pins are brazed to the sides of the body, so those extra radii are absent. So my conclusion is that the plastic parts will fit. Which makes sense; DIP packages (independent of material) are designed to a small set of standard dimensions. 0.1 inch lead pitch, pin spacing 0.300 or 0.400 or 0.600 or similar round numbers. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Mar 24 13:05:40 2017 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:05:40 -0600 Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's In-Reply-To: References: <20170324174343.B0A1C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk [cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 1:43 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: MC68K's on DEUNA's > > > From: John Wilson > > > I think this is DELUA? > > Yes, that's right - sorry! > > > I'm getting old ... could have it wrong. > > No, _I_'m the one who's getting old! (But in this case, that's not it - I > always get the names of those two mixed up!) > > > I'd be inclined to just try it. > > I hadn't bought anything yet... :-) In particular, there's a source of really > cheap P12's, but if the 2mm width difference means the Pxx's won't fit, no use > paying good money for them, right? > > > the definitely-fried CPU (right?) that's in there now? > > The definitely-missing CPU that's not in there now, actually! ;-) I'd agree with Bill. DIP is DIP in this era. The 2mm difference will be in the size of the package, not the offset of the pins coming out of that package. IIRC, the ceramic packages had better heat radiation properties, so a plastic package may need some help to shed its head (heat sink, more air flow, etc). Warner From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 24 13:10:44 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 14:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's Message-ID: <20170324181044.1126018C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Gunshannon > Considering that I have never seen any sockets that were 2mm different > in width ... I really can't imagine any CPU not fitting. I think you're right. I took another look at the drawing, and I'd been looking at the package width dimension: there's also a separate pin-pin distance (horizontal), and that _is_ the same for plastic and ceramic. Ooops! Sorry. Noel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 13:48:00 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 18:48:00 -0000 Subject: GImix Ghost Video Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d501d2a4cf$299f0a80$7cdd1f80$@outlook.com> Brad, I think you may struggle. Looking at the early 6800 Journal there are many boards, which can use Gimix ?Ghost? addressing and are supported by the GMXBug includes the driver software. https://sites.google.com/a/aaronwolfe.com/cococoding/home/magazines/68-micro-journal volume 1 n 5 Page 3 (P5 in the PDF) has a Gimix advert. There is a GMBBUG 02 manual on the flex user group site, but it stops at the chapter before the screen i/o routines?. http://www.flexusergroup.com/flexusergroup/pdfs/gmxmon2.pdf & http://www.flexusergroup.com/flexusergroup/pdfs/gmxbug2.pdf Yuk Dave From: Brad H [mailto:vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net] Sent: 24 March 2017 17:58 To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: GImix Ghost Video Board No.. mine has a 2513 character generator.. the one in the ad uses ram based character generation. Based on IC dates my board looks like mid to late 70s.. a fair bit earlier than that one. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Date: 2017-03-24 2:16 AM (GMT-08:00) To: 'Brad H' >, "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > Subject: RE: GImix Ghost Video Board Is it one that's in the catalogue here:- http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/gimix/Gimix_Catalog_Jun82.pdf Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H via > cctalk > Sent: 23 March 2017 23:58 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > Subject: GImix Ghost Video Board > > Hoping someone might be able to help me on this. > > > > I got a Gimix Ghost SS50 video board today and was trying to find a manual. > I'm sure these were used in Gimix's own ghost systems but the very limited > info I've come across out there suggests they may have worked with any > SS50 system. It basically provides a direct composite video feed out from the > computer, I assume bypassing the need for a terminal. I plugged it in and > fired it up on my SWTPC 6800 and it is working - I think - it generates a full > screen of readable random characters. However it does not put up anything > from the computer - that still goes out via terminal. I'm assuming Ghost > systems were wired up somehow to use this.. I'm hoping to find a manual > that explains how. I don't see a keyboard interface for it anywhere so maybe > this went along as a complete Ghost system with hardware I don't have. > > > > Thanks if you have anything! > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 24 13:47:35 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 11:47:35 -0700 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: <6EB94302-1DE5-43F7-A6AA-F9B7FE76BA5D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 03/24/2017 08:34 AM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: > Well...there is some description in english, google translate is a > very useful tool and the post has a pertinent video. I cannot view it > as spam. Anyway...sorry for bothering :) I rather enjoyed the Vectrex story--and yes, Google translate works pretty well. I remember when the Vectrex came out--and I wondered how well an MPU of the day could keep up with drawing relatively complex game displays, since, unlike a raster display, the vector display has to be continuously regenerated. It clearly worked. Thanks for the narrative, Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 14:14:28 2017 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 14:14:28 -0500 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: <6EB94302-1DE5-43F7-A6AA-F9B7FE76BA5D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not sure how it worked on the Vectrex, but I am familiar with Atari vector arcade games (used to own a Tempest and Asteroids machine). In them, they used a display controller that utilized a display list of coordinates, colors, etc and IIRC it even had the ability to do jumps, etc.... probably similar in concept to how the CTIA/GTIA would work on the Atari home computers with their display lists. Certainly a lot less data to write than a framebuffer or pattern-generated display. In the case of the Asteroids game, it's resolution was around 1024x800ish, pretty high res for the day. I can imagine that they employed a similar vector generator on the Vectrex. On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 03/24/2017 08:34 AM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: > > Well...there is some description in english, google translate is a > > very useful tool and the post has a pertinent video. I cannot view it > > as spam. Anyway...sorry for bothering :) > > I rather enjoyed the Vectrex story--and yes, Google translate works > pretty well. > > I remember when the Vectrex came out--and I wondered how well an MPU of > the day could keep up with drawing relatively complex game displays, > since, unlike a raster display, the vector display has to be > continuously regenerated. It clearly worked. > > Thanks for the narrative, > Chuck > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Mar 24 14:56:29 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:56:29 -0700 Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's In-Reply-To: <1C40944A-5D30-4D52-B9E8-2346720B3020@comcast.net> References: <20170324164437.B015C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1C40944A-5D30-4D52-B9E8-2346720B3020@comcast.net> Message-ID: <61D26297-6430-4193-836C-BEE7330F733A@shaw.ca> On 2017-Mar-24, at 11:06 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Which makes sense; DIP packages (independent of material) are designed to a small set of standard dimensions. 0.1 inch lead pitch, pin spacing 0.300 or 0.400 or 0.600 or similar round numbers. One (perhaps the singular) exception to this is the DCJ11 (pdp11 microproc), a 60-pin DIP with an over-wide body, ~ 1&9/32 in / 33mm, but then it's an unusual hybrid / dual-chip ceramic package. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Mar 24 11:26:34 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:26:34 -0400 Subject: New addition to the collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ab6aa1c-abcc-98ff-65dc-f3342fd035f6@verizon.net> I felt the poor 8085 CPU was under represented and my Tandy M100 was lonely so I added a NEC PC-8201A. The 8201 needed some help to get it going. Things like the foam around the LCD to front bezel was turning to powder and regardless of the battery used it was faulting on low volts (blank screen) plus the internal NiCd was dead and starting to leak. Attacking the power supply corrected the /LPS (low power shutdown) fault due to a bad transistor and now it works well. Next step is to fill the two banks of ram as it only had the factory 16K and can carry 96k. The first software project is to get to near the bare metal. That is a way to load machine language programs and run them where the first code will be a simple Monitor. At some later point I'd like to mod it so the load and store (cload cstore in basic) insted of using audio cassette tape will be to CF or SD mass storage. I may have to resource the rom to to do that or go from scratch. I haven't decided on an OS or start from scratch CP/M is a likely candidate as porting it to 8085 is done deal and adding modern mass storage of any sort is easy (BIOS). The CP/M route opens a door to a great deal of software that will run on 8085 as not all that much required the Z80. The only requirement is 64K of ram from 0000H and the as built memory management can do that. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Mar 24 12:12:30 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:12:30 -0400 Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's In-Reply-To: <20170324164437.B015C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170324164437.B015C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <47d26884-6d58-a507-f7ce-65412238935c@verizon.net> On 03/24/2017 12:44 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So all the DEUNA's I've seen have L10 (ceramic package, 10Mhz) 68K's in them. > Has anyone tried using anything else, and did it work? > > I _assume_ an x12 would work, but until someone has acutally tried it... > > The Pxx's (plastic packaging) might not work - according to the datasheet, > they are 2mm wider than the ceramics (why, I have no idea - it probably means > they aren't interchangeable, which makes no sense at all to me). > > Noel > The 68K dips regardless of package use the same pin pads (center to center location). The issue was at the start the only 68K fast enough was only in ceramic then. You should be able to use any 68K that will clock at that speed ( I forget what the DEUNA ran at). I have the big Moto microprocessor data book and that confirms all the DIP parts are mechanically interchangeable. The ceramic is smaller but the lead shape (bend) defines the landing point and the socket pin location. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Mar 24 12:40:21 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:40:21 -0400 Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's In-Reply-To: <20170324171926.GA9082@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20170324164437.B015C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170324171926.GA9082@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <91dc9e46-0605-8bd7-e3bb-d0f2d4a7941a@verizon.net> On 03/24/2017 01:19 PM, John Wilson via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:44:37PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> So all the DEUNA's I've seen have L10 (ceramic package, 10Mhz) 68K's in them. >> Has anyone tried using anything else, and did it work? >> >> I _assume_ an x12 would work, but until someone has acutally tried it... > I don't know, but isn't the DEUNA T11-based? So I think this is DELUA? > I'm getting old ... could have it wrong. DEQNA and DELQA (Qbus Ethernet adaptor) DELUA is Ubus and older. > Anyway I'd be inclined to just try it. How is a slightly-wrong CPU likely > to do more damage than the definitely-fried CPU (right?) that's in there now? I'd be surprised the CPU is fried. Stolen for other uses maybe. The 68K came in two major forms one was 16 bit bus the other was 8bit bus. That swap would be likely to hurt the cpu. The other variants are package, mask revision levels ( due to bugs in the microcode) and Clock maximum. Allison > John Wilson > D Bit > From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Fri Mar 24 12:40:42 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 18:40:42 +0100 Subject: STC 2920 tapedrive schematics Message-ID: Does anyone have schematics for an STC (StorageTek) 2920 reel-to-reel tapedrive? I?m trying to solve a tape-loading issue that seems to be power-supply related, and some schematics would be very handy right now? Camiel. From nekonoko at me.com Fri Mar 24 14:20:37 2017 From: nekonoko at me.com (Pete Plank) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:20:37 -0700 Subject: For Sale: STM Pied Piper "Portable Computer" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <804A1064-CD7E-4EFB-BD81-DC8495922DE7@me.com> > > I have several of these including the full disk set of 'Perfect' > applications and diagnostics, demo disk etc. One of my jobs for last year > was to image those disks but it took me so long to find them I never got one > of those tuits we all need. > > If anyone buys this let me know and I'll see what's still readable. I have one as well in the original box with the external drive, manuals, etc. but no disks - so I?ve never had it fully running. If you could see what?s available that would be fantastic. Thanks much! From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 24 15:02:16 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:02:16 -0400 Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's In-Reply-To: <91dc9e46-0605-8bd7-e3bb-d0f2d4a7941a@verizon.net> References: <20170324164437.B015C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170324171926.GA9082@dbit.dbit.com> <91dc9e46-0605-8bd7-e3bb-d0f2d4a7941a@verizon.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 24, 2017, at 1:40 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > ... > The 68K came in two major forms one was 16 bit bus the other was 8bit bus. Isn't that the 68008? paul From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Mar 24 15:51:05 2017 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 17:51:05 -0300 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: <6EB94302-1DE5-43F7-A6AA-F9B7FE76BA5D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170324205110.0FB37513E86EB@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > I can imagine that they employed a similar vector generator on the Vectrex. The 6809 processor had to go through the display list itself. But the analog design was very clever. To draw a vector you would use the single DAC to set the start x voltage, then use the same DAC to set the start y voltage, then the end x voltage and finally the end y. The analog circuit would then draw the line itself at a constant rate and the 6809 was free to work on other stuff until the line was finished. So the processor didn't spend time on Bresenham's algorithm and drawing dots like some other vector displays. -- Jecel From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 16:03:42 2017 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 17:03:42 -0400 Subject: For Sale: STM Pied Piper "Portable Computer" In-Reply-To: <804A1064-CD7E-4EFB-BD81-DC8495922DE7@me.com> References: <804A1064-CD7E-4EFB-BD81-DC8495922DE7@me.com> Message-ID: What format are those disks in? I did find the software and manuals but I have to image my disks too. I have not used them yet and have never powered on my Pied Piper at this point. I hope to image them this weekend (if they are still good). Wish my Pied Piper was in better shape but I'm happy to have what I got. Here's a link: http://vintagecomputer.ca/stm-pied-piper-computer You can see a pic of the manuals too. I was considering scanning them but I'd have to tear them apart so I haven't. Santo On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Pete Plank via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > I have several of these including the full disk set of 'Perfect' > > applications and diagnostics, demo disk etc. One of my jobs for last year > > was to image those disks but it took me so long to find them I never got > one > > of those tuits we all need. > > > > If anyone buys this let me know and I'll see what's still readable. > > I have one as well in the original box with the external drive, manuals, > etc. but no disks - so I?ve never had it fully running. If you could see > what?s available that would be fantastic. > > Thanks much! From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Mar 24 16:13:47 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 14:13:47 -0700 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/24/2017 8:43 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: >> It sure has the signature of spam. A link to some random place, without >> explanation of what it is, text in Portuguese when the list uses English... I also saw it on Facebook, where there are quite a few list members, though I've not had a chance to read it. thanks jim From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Mar 24 17:10:14 2017 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 22:10:14 +0000 Subject: For Sale: STM Pied Piper "Portable Computer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 24/03/2017 21:03, "Santo Nucifora" wrote: > What format are those disks in?? I did find the software and manuals but I > have to image my disks too.? I have not used them yet and have never powered > on my Pied Piper at this point.? I hope to image them this weekend (if they > are still good). > > Wish my Pied Piper was in better shape but I'm happy to have what I got.? > Here's a link:? http://vintagecomputer.ca/stm-pied-piper-computer? You can see > a pic of the manuals too.? I was considering scanning them but I'd have to > tear them apart so I haven't. > > Santo > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Pete Plank via cctalk > wrote: >> >>> > >>> > I have several of these including the full disk set of 'Perfect' >>> > applications and diagnostics, demo disk etc. One of my jobs for last year >>> > was to image those disks but it took me so long to find them I never got >>> one >>> > of those tuits we all need. >>> > >>> > If anyone buys this let me know and I'll see what's still readable. >> >> I have one as well in the original box with the external drive, manuals, etc. >> but no disks - so I?ve never had it fully running. If you could see what?s >> available that would be fantastic. >> >> Thanks much! > > > > Hi Santo, Pete, > > I did email you (Santo) when I found them last year but I didn?t get round to > imaging them at the time. The win98 machine I built to do this is still where > I left it in the kitchen so I?m going to have a go tomorrow; the disks > themselves have been indoors in a decent climate so hopefully they?re all as I > left them when I last read them in 2002. > > I?ve just realised how long ago that was :/ At least I know one of my Pied > Piper floppy drives was ok because that was originally what I used in said > win98 imaging machine 8 months ago. > > Results as I get them! > > Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 24 18:17:19 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:17:19 -0700 Subject: For Sale: STM Pied Piper "Portable Computer" In-Reply-To: References: <804A1064-CD7E-4EFB-BD81-DC8495922DE7@me.com> Message-ID: On 03/24/2017 02:03 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > What format are those disks in? I did find the software and manuals > but I have to image my disks too. I have not used them yet and have > never powered on my Pied Piper at this point. I hope to image them > this weekend (if they are still good). The samples that I have are 96 tpi 10x512 byte sectors or 800KB. --Chuck From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 19:43:02 2017 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 20:43:02 -0400 Subject: For Sale: STM Pied Piper "Portable Computer" In-Reply-To: References: <804A1064-CD7E-4EFB-BD81-DC8495922DE7@me.com> Message-ID: Thanks Chuck. I was able to create a good bootable Pied Piper CP/M 2.2 copy but I used a Kryoflux in RAW preservation format so that probably won't be much good for most unless you have a Kryoflux.. I'll have to put together an ImageDisk set up to capture it in a more shareable format. I have - CP/M - Perfect Software Product Disk 1 - Perfect Software Product Disk 2 - Perfect Software Scratch Disk - Pied Piper Peripherals DIskette (in bad shape) This has terminal and modem software but some of the utilities hang. I'll try to set it up and get images this weekend. Glad to see my Pied Piper working for the first time :) Santo On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 7:17 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 03/24/2017 02:03 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > > What format are those disks in? I did find the software and manuals > > but I have to image my disks too. I have not used them yet and have > > never powered on my Pied Piper at this point. I hope to image them > > this weekend (if they are still good). > > The samples that I have are 96 tpi 10x512 byte sectors or 800KB. > > --Chuck > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Mar 24 20:18:13 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 14:18:13 +1300 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Extracting_files_off_=E2=80=9Cunknown=E2=80=9D_8_inch_disks=2E?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Any_thoughts=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: <71c62049-d4de-38b4-40be-b21302af6cbb@sydex.com> References: <71c62049-d4de-38b4-40be-b21302af6cbb@sydex.com> Message-ID: >I'll add one more note that an 8" drive supports 77 tracks/cylinders, >where a 5.25" high-density drive supports 80. So be careful. Noted. Everything is now ready waiting for those bits and pieces to arrive from the U.S. Last night I spent some time going deeper into IMD118, 22DISK and ANADISK. I read the documentation properly and carefully. I also played around with the programs on the 486 using some known floppies and formats. I tried different options and checked the images in a binary editor relating what I saw with what the docs said should be there. I now have a better understanding of how these programs work and what they can tell/do for the user. Dave D and Herb Johnston have some good info on 8 inch drives both in the docs and the web. The docs in 22DISK (Chuck's?) give some good info on CP/M format configurations and how to determine unknown ones. The MS-DOS 6.2 486 DX worked perfectly! I'm looking forward to this project. Even if I don't get anything off those unknown 8 inch floppies I should be able to image my Panasonic JD-850M CP/M ones. That will be reward enough as they contain locally written software and I'd like to archive it. What might throw a spanner in the works is that the drive may be broken. It looks fine but it is untested. Guess I'll just have to wait and see. Terry (Tez) From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Mar 24 18:09:22 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 19:09:22 -0400 Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's In-Reply-To: References: <20170324164437.B015C18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20170324171926.GA9082@dbit.dbit.com> <91dc9e46-0605-8bd7-e3bb-d0f2d4a7941a@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 03/24/2017 04:02 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Mar 24, 2017, at 1:40 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> The 68K came in two major forms one was 16 bit bus the other was 8bit bus. > Isn't that the 68008? Ah yes. Its still logical 68K and the 8bit bus form. Allison > paul > > > From bootmaker at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 18:30:46 2017 From: bootmaker at gmail.com (Gilson Santos) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 20:30:46 -0300 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Faz um post do AC88 :) Em 24/03/2017 00:06, "Alexandre Souza" escreveu: > > Oba, post novo no blog! / New post on blog > > http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2017/03/ > consertando-um-vectrex-com-um-defeito.html > > --- > > > > > -- > -- > Videomagia: A lista dos cl?ssicos de verdade! > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sat Mar 25 15:46:39 2017 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 16:46:39 -0400 Subject: For Sale: STM Pied Piper "Portable Computer" In-Reply-To: References: <804A1064-CD7E-4EFB-BD81-DC8495922DE7@me.com> Message-ID: Disk images have been uploaded in IMD format. For those who might be considering Sellam's Pied Piper (tying this back to the original post), you have software for it now if Sellam cannot find his. Hope this helps Pete and Adrian, if you find any other disks, please share. NOTE: The Pied Piper Peripheral disk is mostly bad but some files may be salvageable. Thanks, Santo On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 8:43 PM, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Thanks Chuck. > > I was able to create a good bootable Pied Piper CP/M 2.2 copy but I used a > Kryoflux in RAW preservation format so that probably won't be much good for > most unless you have a Kryoflux.. I'll have to put together an ImageDisk > set up to capture it in a more shareable format. > > I have > - CP/M > - Perfect Software Product Disk 1 > - Perfect Software Product Disk 2 > - Perfect Software Scratch Disk > - Pied Piper Peripherals DIskette (in bad shape) This has terminal and > modem software but some of the utilities hang. > > I'll try to set it up and get images this weekend. Glad to see my Pied > Piper working for the first time :) > > Santo > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 7:17 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 03/24/2017 02:03 PM, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: >> > What format are those disks in? I did find the software and manuals >> > but I have to image my disks too. I have not used them yet and have >> > never powered on my Pied Piper at this point. I hope to image them >> > this weekend (if they are still good). >> >> The samples that I have are 96 tpi 10x512 byte sectors or 800KB. >> >> --Chuck >> > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Mar 25 16:44:14 2017 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 10:44:14 +1300 Subject: New addition to the collection In-Reply-To: <5ab6aa1c-abcc-98ff-65dc-f3342fd035f6@verizon.net> References: <5ab6aa1c-abcc-98ff-65dc-f3342fd035f6@verizon.net> Message-ID: Re NEC 8201a... This is a machine I have a lot if fondness for. Wrote many article drafts and crunched a lot of numbers on that little unit. Terry (Tez) From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 25 21:28:28 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 19:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New addition to the collection In-Reply-To: from Terry Stewart via cctalk at "Mar 26, 17 10:44:14 am" Message-ID: <201703260228.v2Q2SSAd9240714@floodgap.com> > Re NEC 8201a... > > This is a machine I have a lot if fondness for. Wrote many article > drafts and crunched a lot of numbers on that little unit. The 8201A was my first "laptop." I did a lot with it too. Unfortunately the batteries died on it before all the stuff I did with it in Malaysia could be saved to tape. :-/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, kids: for great justice take off every zig! ---------------------- From lists at loomcom.com Sat Mar 25 23:26:52 2017 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 23:26:52 -0500 Subject: Wanted: AT&T 3B2 Ethernet Card ROM images Message-ID: <20170326042651.GA8266@loomcom.com> I'm trying to track down ROM images from AT&T 3B2 expansion cards. I've started with the EPORTS serial card, which I have. What I'd love to find is the ROM from the NI Ethernet card. Not all ROMs were socketed. Freqently they were soldered, so I know that getting these probably won't be easy. If I had an NI card of my own I'd desolder the ROMs, but alas, I do not. If you have these ROMs, are willing to image them, or -- and this is a real long shot -- if you're willing to let me borrow a card for a while, I'd greatly appreciate hearing from you. Best Wishes, -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Mar 25 20:52:28 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Parent Allison) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 21:52:28 -0400 Subject: New addition to the collection In-Reply-To: References: <5ab6aa1c-abcc-98ff-65dc-f3342fd035f6@verizon.net> Message-ID: <691FBBC9-DCD0-4FE0-A8C8-65B88C6ADFAC@gmail.com> On Mar 25, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > Re NEC 8201a... > > This is a machine I have a lot if fondness for. Wrote many article > drafts and crunched a lot of numbers on that little unit. > > Terry (Tez) My only wish is the tech manual it is terrible and inaccurate to boot. Neat machine and moving toward getting 32k ram and bank 2 installed per club100. Allison From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Mar 26 00:10:56 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 22:10:56 -0700 Subject: Introducing the UUCP/Usenet Project In-Reply-To: References: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <7CC7AC1F-C438-4E1A-8756-2A725BA871BF@nf6x.net> For a year or two in college, I was running UUCP on my Amiga 1000. I had it dialing into the SPARCstation IPC on the computer support desk at UCI. Gack, I still remember the pain of hacking the sendmail.cf without the benefit of the later m4 macros, in order to get the mail forwarding working. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From alan at alanlee.org Sun Mar 26 05:07:58 2017 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 06:07:58 -0400 Subject: Wanted: AT&T 3B2 Ethernet Card ROM images In-Reply-To: <20170326042651.GA8266@loomcom.com> References: <20170326042651.GA8266@loomcom.com> Message-ID: I am looking for ROM dumps for the NI card as well. I've dumped ROMs from most other cards. I've placed there temporarily here: https://www.retrotronics.org/tmp/3b2_romdumps.zip [1] I've disassembled the ones I have. They all appear to be based on the same CIO reference firmware, mostly compiled with a C compiler, share 75% of code between them, do not support PIO access other than to return the card id code and accept a slot number, and communicate with the host OS through in/out FIFOs at an address in memory based on the card id. -Alan On 2017-03-26 00:26, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to track down ROM images from AT&T 3B2 expansion cards. > I've started with the EPORTS serial card, which I have. What I'd love > to find is the ROM from the NI Ethernet card. > > Not all ROMs were socketed. Freqently they were soldered, so I know > that getting these probably won't be easy. If I had an NI card of my > own I'd desolder the ROMs, but alas, I do not. > > If you have these ROMs, are willing to image them, or -- and this is a > real long shot -- if you're willing to let me borrow a card for a > while, I'd greatly appreciate hearing from you. > > Best Wishes, > > -Seth Links: ------ [1] https://www.retrotronics.org/tmp/3b2_romdumps.zip From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Mar 26 14:58:21 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 15:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's Message-ID: <20170326195821.CBBDC18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Gunshannon > I doubt Motorolla was in the business of custom making different size > chips, even for DEC. So, that triggered a question in my mind: why was DEC using the 68K on this board, anyway? They had plenty of in-house chips the could have used, e.g. the J11. The MC68000 had only a 16-bit bus, so it's not that dissimilar in capabilities. Why buy out? Did Motorola offer them a price they couldn't resist, or what? Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 26 15:02:51 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 16:02:51 -0400 Subject: MC68K's on DEUNA's In-Reply-To: <20170326195821.CBBDC18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170326195821.CBBDC18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6B42E49C-9775-49F8-88BB-1144AC765B09@comcast.net> > On Mar 26, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Bill Gunshannon > >> I doubt Motorolla was in the business of custom making different size >> chips, even for DEC. > > So, that triggered a question in my mind: why was DEC using the 68K on this > board, anyway? They had plenty of in-house chips the could have used, e.g. > the J11. The MC68000 had only a 16-bit bus, so it's not that dissimilar in > capabilities. Why buy out? Did Motorola offer them a price they couldn't > resist, or what? J-11 may have been later. Also, until fairly late, the DEC in-house semiconductor group charged extremely high prices for its chips. I remember the first couple of internal Ethernet MACs were thoroughly uncompetitive with LANCE for that reason; some vague memory says this was finally fixed in the third generation ("TGEC"). paul From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 26 15:01:11 2017 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 13:01:11 -0700 Subject: DEC VT520 in San Jose In-Reply-To: <7CC7AC1F-C438-4E1A-8756-2A725BA871BF@nf6x.net> References: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> <7CC7AC1F-C438-4E1A-8756-2A725BA871BF@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <7034d3f4-815f-1bd1-4bc7-ea55753b9259@sbcglobal.net> Saw this on Craigslist so if anyone needs one it's reasonable at $35 working. https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/sys/6060214206.html Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 01:05:56 2017 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 02:05:56 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) Message-ID: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56897-Came-across-three-PDP-11-20- units-today Need some lovin'. Not near enough to here . ----- From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 01:50:00 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 01:50:00 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm close and interested, but it won't let me reply.... On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56897-Came- > across-three-PDP-11-20- > units-today > > > > Need some lovin'. Not near enough to here . > > > > ----- > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Mar 27 02:04:19 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 00:04:19 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <908b5600-d256-7aee-394c-67b3a55f66f7@jwsss.com> On 3/26/2017 11:50 PM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > I'm close and interested, but it won't let me reply.... If you have a vcfed account private message the original poster. I also replied have close in as well, and am very interested. I replied on the thread, but it is moderated for members like me, I guess (don't know the rules on vcfed). but the PM seemed to go direct to the OP. I suspect there is a lot of interest. thanks Jim From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Mar 27 02:19:22 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 02:19:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170327071922.GA31467@lonesome.com> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 02:05:56AM -0400, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > Need some lovin'. Not near enough to here . I would go to Iowa. Hell, it's not *that* far from Texas. (OTOH I could only take one of them.) Guess I'll have to sign up in the a.m. so I can see the pictures. mcl From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 03:03:23 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:03:23 +0200 Subject: [VideoMagia] Reparando um Vectrex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24 March 2017 at 22:13, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 3/24/2017 8:43 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: No, I did not! > It sure has the signature of spam. A link to some random place, without > explanation of what it is, text in Portuguese when the list uses English... Please take care with the attribution! Now there's an archived message indicating I wrote the above, which I most definitely did not. I *replied* to, and argued against it. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 27 04:32:25 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:32:25 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> On 03/27/2017 08:05 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56897-Came-across-three-PDP-11-20- > units-today Haha, those low-brain comments! User g4ugm: "have core memory... lower value" I can offer high performance pdp11 QBus gear for core memory based machines, no problem! User Qbus: "Low performance version" Year, low performance.... Of course! But it's no low performance version of any other pdp11. Perhaps Qbus should put an Univerter in front of his eyes to clear up his view :-) The 11/20 without "/20" on the front panel is *THE* pdp11. The first one. I consider it more valuable than $200-300. Even rusty. :-) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 05:03:55 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:03:55 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> Message-ID: <000e01d2a6e1$7261a520$5724ef60$@outlook.com> > > > > On 03/27/2017 08:05 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56897-Came-across-three- > PDP- > > 11-20- > > units-today > > Haha, those low-brain comments! > > User g4ugm: "have core memory... lower value" > I have the impression that 11's with core in are harder to fix, so the pool of buyers are smaller... > I can offer high performance pdp11 QBus gear for core memory based > machines, no problem! Dave G4UGM From ben at bensinclair.com Mon Mar 27 06:53:54 2017 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 06:53:54 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm only a half hour from Boone. But, I can barely keep my 11/23 running, so I don't think I would be a good owner for these. I offered to help the poster if they want, as I don't want to see these scrapped either. On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56897-Came- > across-three-PDP-11-20- > units-today > > > > Need some lovin'. Not near enough to here . > > > > ----- > > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 27 07:59:54 2017 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:59:54 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <000e01d2a6e1$7261a520$5724ef60$@outlook.com> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> <000e01d2a6e1$7261a520$5724ef60$@outlook.com> Message-ID: On 03/27/2017 12:03 PM, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com wrote: >> On 03/27/2017 08:05 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: >>> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56897-Came-across-three- >> PDP- >>> 11-20- >>> units-today >> >> Haha, those low-brain comments! >> >> User g4ugm: "have core memory... lower value" >> > > > I have the impression that 11's with core in are harder to fix, so the pool > of buyers are smaller... Hm, interesting point of view... The 11/20 is the simplest 11 as far as I know. No microcode that can go bad. The core memory systems are quite reliable. And if there's a problem, they're not that difficult to fix. For me it's important that the computer has core memory: It's a big part of the fun! The sc memory systems are too close to modern hardware. Without blinkenlight panels or at least LEDs instead of incandescent bulbs. Not to forget: More vintage -> More cool ( -> higher value) A pdp11/34, /44 or any QBUS machine can ever be as cool as a 11/20, 11/40, 11/45/, /70 and so on. I somewhere have an 11/45 with full core memory (something over 200k). But the CPU has issues... :-( From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Mar 27 08:12:07 2017 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:12:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Mar 2017, Ben Sinclair via cctalk wrote: > I'm only a half hour from Boone. But, I can barely keep my 11/23 running, > so I don't think I would be a good owner for these. I offered to help the > poster if they want, as I don't want to see these scrapped either. Hey Ben; Apologies for replying direct, but I've got a two-fold query - firstly, I don't have a VCF account, and I've never felt the need to get one before - is there any chance you know of a way of contacting the original poster off the board? If not, I'll figure something out. The second was I'm also in Iowa - I'm up in the Hampton area. I didn't realise there was anyone else around here (although the law of averages said there must). Mostly wanted to say Hi to another classic machine owner in the area. Bring on Spring, eh? - JP > On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56897-Came- >> across-three-PDP-11-20- >> units-today >> >> >> >> Need some lovin'. Not near enough to here . >> >> >> >> ----- >> >> > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 08:15:27 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 09:15:27 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 5:32 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > On 03/27/2017 08:05 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56897-Came-across-three-PDP-11-20- >> units-today Nice find, even if they are bit rough. > Haha, those low-brain comments! > > User g4ugm: "have core memory... lower value" Indeed... I'm still kind of annoyed that the 11/20 I rescued from the dumpster at work in 1984 got mildly "souveniered" before I got it - at least one core plane went to another employee who wanted a wall-hanger. Was there ever a quad MOS memory board for the 11/20? It would have to be 4K or less, I'd expect, given the era and size of RAM. I know by a few years later, with the 11/04, MOS was becoming common. Obviously, despite the lack of supported examples in the configuration guide, one could put some RAM in a DD11-CK or DD11-DK and hang it off of the CPU chassis (as long as module order and grant priority isn't violated) but I wonder if anyone _did_ that. I would think the cost of a 4K or larger MOS board and the relative cost of PDP-11s in general in the mid-1970s, it would have been better to have just retired the 11/20 and gone with a single-cabinet machine like an 11/04 or 11/34, so it probably would have been some college lab experiment to use parts on hand rather than a commercial endeavor. Obviously, it's easy enough to make a modern quad-height Unibus memory board and bypass debugging core problems, but that's back to the functional vs "authentic" argument (I prefer authentic except where impractical or unobtainable, like trying to find an RF11/RS11). > The 11/20 without "/20" on the front panel is *THE* pdp11. The first one. I > consider it more valuable than $200-300. Even rusty. Right. I'm sad mine says "/20" but only a little. The real trick is going to be buying a crate of Boxer fans and finding enough power to run this thing. When it was dumpstered, my old boss stripped the fans and PSUs and tossed the rest out (which I saved). So I have 3 BA11 boxes (including the intact front panel), all the backplanes, nearly all the boards, but in the form of a very large and very heavy jigsaw puzzle. I also saved what C-sized prints I could find, and the rest appear to be on Bitsavers. I'd be interested in talking with whoever ends up with this haul (or with anyone else who has an 11/20, really) to get some specific pictures of the power wiring and fans so I can put mine back together. Also, if anyone knows where to get a crate of 110V Boxer fans for around $5/each, let me know (I see them on a regular basis for $15-$20/unit, but I need at least 9). Used at that price is fine, or else I'll just have to pay full tick for new. -ethan From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 08:29:16 2017 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:29:16 +0200 Subject: STC 2920 tapedrive schematics Message-ID: On 24 March 2017 at 18:40, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: > Does anyone have schematics for an STC (StorageTek) 2920 reel-to-reel > tapedrive?[..] That drive was discussed on the list some time ago. All the docs should be available on bitsavers by now, although I don't remember if it's under 'stc' or 'storagetek' or both. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 09:03:48 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:03:48 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> <000e01d2a6e1$7261a520$5724ef60$@outlook.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:59 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > Hm, interesting point of view... The 11/20 is the simplest 11 as far as I > know. No microcode that can go bad. Yep. Simple and spread across multiple cards. > The core memory systems are quite reliable. And if there's a problem, > they're not that difficult to fix. I liken them to OMNIBUS core in terms of repair complexity. You _can_ fix them, but the analog nature of the devices put some people off. There are things to learn for certain. > A pdp11/34, /44 or any QBUS machine can ever be as cool as a 11/20, 11/40, > 11/45/, /70 and so on. Agreed, though at least the 11/34 can have a programmer's panel. Not as cool as individual lights... -ethan From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 27 09:28:43 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:28:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4CA47939-2D3C-493C-94DE-12445B290981@comcast.net> > On Mar 27, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > >> ...Haha, those low-brain comments! >> >> User g4ugm: "have core memory... lower value" > > Indeed... I'm still kind of annoyed that the 11/20 I rescued from the > dumpster at work in 1984 got mildly "souveniered" before I got it - at > least one core plane went to another employee who wanted a > wall-hanger. > > Was there ever a quad MOS memory board for the 11/20? It would have > to be 4K or less, I'd expect, given the era and size of RAM. I know > by a few years later, with the 11/04, MOS was becoming common. I don't know of MOS memory appearing in 11/20s as built by DEC, but there's no reason against it. It's just Unibus memory. It wouldn't have to be 4k either; if you had a 32kW memory card that should work just fine. paul From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 09:37:59 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:37:59 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <4CA47939-2D3C-493C-94DE-12445B290981@comcast.net> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> <4CA47939-2D3C-493C-94DE-12445B290981@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20170327103759.1a96b08791a45147a65e9e64@gmail.com> > I don't know of MOS memory appearing in 11/20s as built by DEC, but there's no reason against it. It's just Unibus memory. It wouldn't have to be 4k either; if you had a 32kW memory card that should work just fine. Indeed, Unibus is Unibus, except when it's MUD :) Thanks, Jonathan From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Mar 27 10:30:12 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:30:12 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d3926e8-955b-45c6-c425-a92070edb1e8@jwsss.com> I have replied over on vcfed, but so far not sign that my activities are going anywhere. If someone can help in contacting, I've got the resources to collect the system, but so far no sign of what is going on anywhere but the original posts. thanks jim On 3/27/2017 4:53 AM, Ben Sinclair via cctalk wrote: > I'm only a half hour from Boone. But, I can barely keep my 11/23 running, > so I don't think I would be a good owner for these. I offered to help the > poster if they want, as I don't want to see these scrapped either. > > On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56897-Came- >> across-three-PDP-11-20- >> units-today >> >> >> >> Need some lovin'. Not near enough to here . >> >> >> >> ----- >> >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 27 11:16:24 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 09:16:24 -0700 Subject: Fwd: 50% DISCOUNT WEBSITE MANUAL & PARTS, ONE WEEK ONLY In-Reply-To: <993c9247a998c24254b39264fb8925b8@na02.mypinpointe.com> References: <993c9247a998c24254b39264fb8925b8@na02.mypinpointe.com> Message-ID: FYI -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: 50% DISCOUNT WEBSITE MANUAL & PARTS, ONE WEEK ONLY Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 06:53:02 -0700 From: Tucker Electronics Company To: aek at bitsavers.org 50% DISCOUNT WEBSITE MANUALS & PARTS, ONE WEEK ONLY Thanks for your purchases of manuals and parts last week and previously. We have slashed the selling price of most manuals on eBay by 50-75% in recent months. Our two websites www.etestmanuals.com and www.etestparts.com have many more listings than our eBay site ( teoutlet). Unfortunately, we have not been able to update pricing and shipping costs on these sites. These manuals and parts were purchased when we had a large repair and calibration lab. Many are one of a kind and subject to prior sale. We have over 43000 different listings on www.etestmanuals.com . We have over 12,000 different listings on www.etestparts.com . THE 50% DISCOUNT APPLIES TO ALL ITEMS LISTED ON THESE TWO SITES THAT ARE AVAILABLE STILL. The promotion will run from March 27th to April 1st. All items are subject to prior sale. We want to encourage you to buy especially the next two months. If you are most comfortable buying on eBay ( our site is teoutlet), please continue to do so. On US sales, we can make consolidated shipping quotes as needed. We are very motivated to sell although there are limits to what we can do on eBay. On our two websites listed above, we encourage you to make a list and contact us at jtucker at tucker.com regarding consolidated prices and shipping costs. Our websites can be used to look equipment up, but not to take advantage of the 50% discount prices this week. We can send you PayPal invoices for any purchases not done on eBay. In all cases you have the buyer protection of PayPal. We can also take Credit Cards. Our phone number is 2143488800. We do prefer email to jtucker at tucker.com as most questions about manuals require research and can?t be handled by a phone call. Please keep in mind that quantities are limited on the majority of listings and everything is subject to prior sale. SOME EQUIPMENT PROMOTIONS FOR THIS WEEK ONLY: 3 each Agilent-HP 6031A Power Supplies, 0-20V, 0-120A, 1000 watts with manual These have been TESTED and are on eBay at $750 regular price. $550 each this week only by direct purchase. 3 each Tektronix P5205 High Voltage Differential Probes with All Accessories. Regularly listed on eBay at $550. Price for this week only of $350 each by direct purchase. Electro Scientific Industries DT72A Standard Decade Transformer. Regular price of $750. Priced to sell this week for $550. Thanks again for your business and we look forward to hearing from you soon. Jim Tucker Tucker Electronics Company 11448 Pagemill Road Dallas, TX 75243 jtucker at tucker.com 2143488800 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sent by Tucker Electronics Company | 11448 Pagemill Road, Dallas, TX 75243 Sent to: "aek at bitsavers.org" | You are subscribed to "Websites sale list" Change your preferences / opt out www.pinpointe.com From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 27 11:20:40 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 09:20:40 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <20170327103759.1a96b08791a45147a65e9e64@gmail.com> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> <4CA47939-2D3C-493C-94DE-12445B290981@comcast.net> <20170327103759.1a96b08791a45147a65e9e64@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0c42fbce-1979-af94-bd09-40511da0a590@bitsavers.org> On 3/27/17 7:37 AM, Systems Glitch via cctalk wrote: >> I don't know of MOS memory appearing in 11/20s as built by DEC, but there's no reason against it. There were 3rd party cards, Monolithic Systems, for example. The problem with the 11/20 is that hex wide cards don't fit, the fans overlap the unibus jumper area. If you ever see hex-wide cards with a big notch in one end, they were designed to work in the 11/15 11/20 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 27 14:41:00 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:41:00 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> Message-ID: <21b07c02-f624-18ee-d1ad-8770d1d30348@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/27/2017 3:32 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote: > > > On 03/27/2017 08:05 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56897-Came-across-three-PDP-11-20- >> >> units-today > > Haha, those low-brain comments! > > User g4ugm: "have core memory... lower value" > > I can offer high performance pdp11 QBus gear for core memory based > machines, no problem! > > User Qbus: "Low performance version" > Year, low performance.... Of course! But it's no low performance version > of any other pdp11. Perhaps Qbus should put an Univerter in front of his > eyes to clear up his view :-) > > The 11/20 without "/20" on the front panel is *THE* pdp11. The first > one. I consider it more valuable than $200-300. Even rusty. > > :-) Well for $200 you build a front panel, stick a PI in there and run what ever CPU you like. :) Ben. From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Mar 27 15:15:34 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:15:34 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20170327201534.GA1532@lonesome.com> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 09:15:27AM -0400, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > I also saved what C-sized prints I could find, and the rest > appear to be on Bitsavers. I was given a pile of them many years ago. If there is something missing, let me know. My project to declutter has stalled at the moment. I was always hoping to get a machine to go along with the prints :-) It was the first "real" machine I learned from both a hardware and software perspective. Lo, those many years ago ... mcl From steven at malikoff.com Mon Mar 27 17:35:48 2017 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:35:48 +1000 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <4CA47939-2D3C-493C-94DE-12445B290981@comcast.net> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> <4CA47939-2D3C-493C-94DE-12445B290981@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> On Mar 27, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> Was there ever a quad MOS memory board for the 11/20? It would have >> to be 4K or less, I'd expect, given the era and size of RAM. I know >> by a few years later, with the 11/04, MOS was becoming common. > > I don't know of MOS memory appearing in 11/20s as built by DEC, but there's no reason against it. It's just Unibus memory. It wouldn't have to be 4k either; if you had a 32kW memory card that should work just fine. > > paul After seeing this modern memory board project for the PDP-8/e using NVRAMMs http://www.tronola.com/html/ram_for_pdp-8e.html I wonder how much effort it would be to refactor the Omnibus logic to Unibus to build a PDP-11 version, and thus have a quad size card for /15's and /20's? Steve. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 17:46:08 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 18:46:08 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> <4CA47939-2D3C-493C-94DE-12445B290981@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > After seeing this modern memory board project for the PDP-8/e using NVRAMMs > http://www.tronola.com/html/ram_for_pdp-8e.html I have a couple of those I need to solder up. > I wonder how much effort it would be to refactor the Omnibus logic to Unibus > to build a PDP-11 version, and thus have a quad size card for /15's and /20's? Conceptually, it's not much different for Unibus. There's at least one project out there that's working toward this but not yet available for purchase. If I was in a real hurry, I could take a quad prototype board and roll my own. I happen to have a handful of DS8641s on hand from making Unibus COMBOARDs 25 years ago. The quantity of discussion on this list about modern Unibus transceiver replacements is rather large and merely mentioning it is likely to cause a flare-up. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Mar 27 18:03:44 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:03:44 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> <4CA47939-2D3C-493C-94DE-12445B290981@comcast.net> Message-ID: <77B7D4B4-CC67-4C31-9FBF-DD9639326628@shiresoft.com> Yes, the MEM11 is about 1/2 assembled at the moment (I just haven?t had the time to finish it?you know WORK gets in the way). TTFN - Guy > On Mar 27, 2017, at 3:46 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk > wrote: >> After seeing this modern memory board project for the PDP-8/e using NVRAMMs >> http://www.tronola.com/html/ram_for_pdp-8e.html > > I have a couple of those I need to solder up. > >> I wonder how much effort it would be to refactor the Omnibus logic to Unibus >> to build a PDP-11 version, and thus have a quad size card for /15's and /20's? > > Conceptually, it's not much different for Unibus. There's at least > one project out there that's working toward this but not yet available > for purchase. > > If I was in a real hurry, I could take a quad prototype board and roll > my own. I happen to have a handful of DS8641s on hand from making > Unibus COMBOARDs 25 years ago. The quantity of discussion on this > list about modern Unibus transceiver replacements is rather large and > merely mentioning it is likely to cause a flare-up. > > -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 18:04:49 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 19:04:49 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: <0c42fbce-1979-af94-bd09-40511da0a590@bitsavers.org> References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> <4CA47939-2D3C-493C-94DE-12445B290981@comcast.net> <20170327103759.1a96b08791a45147a65e9e64@gmail.com> <0c42fbce-1979-af94-bd09-40511da0a590@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 3/27/17 7:37 AM, Systems Glitch via cctalk wrote: >>> I don't know of MOS memory appearing in 11/20s as built by DEC, but there's no reason against it. > > There were 3rd party cards, Monolithic Systems, for example. > The problem with the 11/20 is that hex wide cards don't fit, the fans overlap the unibus jumper area. > If you ever see hex-wide cards with a big notch in one end, they were designed to work in the 11/15 11/20 Exactly. There are plenty of hex-height cards with MOS memory for Unibus (I have several for the 11/04 and/or 11/34 of a suitable size) but they would fit in an external BA11-K or BA11-L w/DD11-DK, not the CPU's BA11 because of the fans. That's why I was wondering if DEC ever made quad-height MOS modules for Unibus or if all DEC-supplied 11/20s and 11/15s had core and only core. -ethan From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Mar 27 19:56:26 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 17:56:26 -0700 Subject: Microdata and Decision Data haul from usual site Message-ID: I was able to get hold of a lot of boards which had been pulled from two Decision Data's and a Western Dynex 2400 RPM 10mb (probably) drive. The Dynex drive is similar to the RL02 and in fact was configurable to look like one in one of the options. Microdata would have used 24 sector packs vs. the 12 sector packs used by DEC, however. One of the CPUs is a pretty ordinary Data / Control set made by Microdata but with most of the etch and silkscreen modified to have Decision data info. I'm going to check with my Microdata people and see if anyone recalls if this was done by Microdata, or by DD themselves. There is a nice find however, a 2901 CPU 16 bit system cpu set and memory. It also runs in the 130 pin Microdata 1600 backplane, which makes it interesting. I'd love to get information and drawings as much as might be around for this set. May be donating most of it to add to my 1600 system @ the CHM, as there are boards here which I didn't have examples of to donate at the time. Will check with them after I fondle the boards for a while. It's cool to have an additional example of a possible Microdata 1600 type CPU, as this is one of my collecting areas. I'll be adding in titles and comments on the photos later, but here are photos of the boards for now. http://jim-st.blogspot.com/2017/03/microdata-decision-data-and-western.html Thanks Jim From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 27 20:51:34 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:51:34 -0400 Subject: Unibus/QBus transceivers and drivers - was Re: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> <4CA47939-2D3C-493C-94DE-12445B290981@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5ffc42c4-2929-f429-a088-cce25a7e2f18@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-03-27 6:46 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk > wrote: >> After seeing this modern memory board project for the PDP-8/e using NVRAMMs >> http://www.tronola.com/html/ram_for_pdp-8e.html > > I have a couple of those I need to solder up. > >> I wonder how much effort it would be to refactor the Omnibus logic to Unibus >> to build a PDP-11 version, and thus have a quad size card for /15's and /20's? > > Conceptually, it's not much different for Unibus. There's at least > one project out there that's working toward this but not yet available > for purchase. > > If I was in a real hurry, I could take a quad prototype board and roll > my own. I happen to have a handful of DS8641s on hand from making > Unibus COMBOARDs 25 years ago. The quantity of discussion on this > list about modern Unibus transceiver replacements is rather large and > merely mentioning it is likely to cause a flare-up. It just begs for a conclusive summary. Perhaps those who are actively building stuff will eventually provide one (not necessarily on the list per se) :-) --Toby > > -ethan > From spc at conman.org Mon Mar 27 15:53:20 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:53:20 -0400 Subject: Floating point routines for the 6809 Message-ID: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> Some time ago I came across the MC6839 ROM which contains floating point routines for the 6809. The documentation that came with it stated: Written for Motorola by Joel Boney, 1980 Released into the public domain by Motorola in 1988 Docs and apps for Tandy Color Computer by Rich Kottke, 1989 What I haven't been able to find is the actual *source code* to the module. Is it available anywhere? I've been playing around the the MC6839 on an emulator but having the source would clear up some issues I've been having with the code. -spc From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 00:48:10 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 00:48:10 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) In-Reply-To: References: <025301d2a6c0$338a02a0$9a9e07e0$@gmail.com> <9102786d-8999-aad2-8d2b-46a98bd38c32@hachti.de> <4CA47939-2D3C-493C-94DE-12445B290981@comcast.net> <20170327103759.1a96b08791a45147a65e9e64@gmail.com> <0c42fbce-1979-af94-bd09-40511da0a590@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: If you are concerned about hex height boards or mos, you can always use a BA11-KE expansion box. On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > On 3/27/17 7:37 AM, Systems Glitch via cctalk wrote: > >>> I don't know of MOS memory appearing in 11/20s as built by DEC, but > there's no reason against it. > > > > There were 3rd party cards, Monolithic Systems, for example. > > The problem with the 11/20 is that hex wide cards don't fit, the fans > overlap the unibus jumper area. > > If you ever see hex-wide cards with a big notch in one end, they were > designed to work in the 11/15 11/20 > > Exactly. There are plenty of hex-height cards with MOS memory for > Unibus (I have several for the 11/04 and/or 11/34 of a suitable size) > but they would fit in an external BA11-K or BA11-L w/DD11-DK, not the > CPU's BA11 because of the fans. That's why I was wondering if DEC > ever made quad-height MOS modules for Unibus or if all DEC-supplied > 11/20s and 11/15s had core and only core. > > -ethan > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 00:51:24 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:51:24 -0600 Subject: Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Some time ago I came across the MC6839 ROM which contains floating point > routines for the 6809. The documentation that came with it stated: > > Written for Motorola by Joel Boney, 1980 > Released into the public domain by Motorola in 1988 > Docs and apps for Tandy Color Computer by Rich Kottke, 1989 > > What I haven't been able to find is the actual *source code* to the > module. Is it available anywhere? I've been playing around the the MC6839 > on an emulator but having the source would clear up some issues I've been > having with the code. > https://github.com/brouhaha/float09 I haven't modified it to assemble with a readily available assembler, so I don't know whether it assembles into the exact MC6839 ROM image. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Mar 28 01:54:08 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:54:08 -0700 Subject: Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: That's cool. I need to scrounge around and find my copy of Forth we used on a 6809 tape controller firmware. I had forth in the diagnostic firmware that we had on a snapon module and you could compose whatever diagnostic exercises you chose by executing the basic test functions we had in Forth. Thanks for posting and finding it or writing it, Eric. thanks jim On 3/27/2017 10:51 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Some time ago I came across the MC6839 ROM which contains floating point >> routines for the 6809. The documentation that came with it stated: >> >> Written for Motorola by Joel Boney, 1980 >> Released into the public domain by Motorola in 1988 >> Docs and apps for Tandy Color Computer by Rich Kottke, 1989 >> >> What I haven't been able to find is the actual *source code* to the >> module. Is it available anywhere? I've been playing around the the MC6839 >> on an emulator but having the source would clear up some issues I've been >> having with the code. >> > https://github.com/brouhaha/float09 > > I haven't modified it to assemble with a readily available assembler, so I > don't know whether it assembles into the exact MC6839 ROM image. > > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 10:23:50 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:23:50 +0200 Subject: Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 28 March 2017 at 08:54, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I need to scrounge around Hmm. That is not a possible usage of "scrounge" the way I know it. You can't scrounge something you already have. It doesn't mean "search for", it means "to pilfer", to get something off someone by the pretence of borrowing it when you have no intention of ever returning or repaying it. I.e. it's borderline theft. It can mean to scavenge or to forage -- to go and seek something that isn't yours that you can take and keep or use. It doesn't mean to borrow, to seek, to look for. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 28 11:35:46 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:35:46 +0000 Subject: QIX game on PDP-11 Message-ID: Hi PDP-11 game players ? I found that the famous QIX game was ported to the PDP-11 !! See http://imgur.com/a/gtPfh Back in the days, I spend quite a few Guilders on this addictive game. Does anybody have a lead to the software? That would be awesome! Thanks, Henk From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 11:58:43 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:58:43 -0400 Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Floating point routines for the 6809 On 28 March 2017 at 08:54, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I need to scrounge around Hmm. That is not a possible usage of "scrounge" the way I know it. You can't scrounge something you already have. It doesn't mean "search for", it means "to pilfer", to get something off someone by the pretence of borrowing it when you have no intention of ever returning or repaying it. I.e. it's borderline theft. It can mean to scavenge or to forage -- to go and seek something that isn't yours that you can take and keep or use. It doesn't mean to borrow, to seek, to look for. ---------------------- Maybe it has a slightly different connotation on this side of the pond; I don't think it would mean "borderline theft" for most people. e.g: scrounge around (for something) American English Leroy would scrounge around for old car parts. We would usually use "mooch" or "sponge" for _taking advantage of_ someone's generosity. What would you call posting a want on freecycle? m From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Mar 28 11:58:50 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:58:50 -0400 Subject: Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <7ef03352-7d44-6b46-0c68-db5f977217c8@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-03-28 11:23 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 28 March 2017 at 08:54, jim stephens via cctalk > wrote: >> I need to scrounge around > > Hmm. That is not a possible usage of "scrounge" the way I know it. You > can't scrounge something you already have. It doesn't mean "search > for", it means "to pilfer", to get something off someone by the > pretence of borrowing it when you have no intention of ever returning > or repaying it. I.e. it's borderline theft. > > It can mean to scavenge or to forage -- to go and seek something that > isn't yours that you can take and keep or use. > > It doesn't mean to borrow, to seek, to look for. > Then it's a regional thing. Where I come from you can definitely say "scrounge up" as "to look for", either in one's own stuff, or "somewhere". The pejorative sense of "scrounger" is different. --Toby From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 12:09:47 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:09:47 -0400 Subject: QIX game on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > > Hi PDP-11 game players ? > > I found that the famous QIX game was ported to the PDP-11 !! > See http://imgur.com/a/gtPfh I don't know which PDP-11 that is either. It's a 3rd party card. Anyone recognize it? -ethan From wilson at dbit.com Tue Mar 28 12:17:20 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:17:20 -0400 Subject: QIX game on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170328171720.GA23306@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 04:35:46PM +0000, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >I found that the famous QIX game was ported to the PDP-11 !! [...] >Does anybody have a lead to the software? That would be awesome! Nope, but I remember a VAX version that also used VT100 graphics. Possibly the same one? I doubt it's much of a memory hog so maybe it runs on (or was easily ported to) the PDP-11 too. Not that I know where to find the VAX version either... John Wilson D Bit From jsw at ieee.org Tue Mar 28 12:29:46 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:29:46 -0500 Subject: QIX game on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1329EB-8623-4283-BCD0-BC746EDF6D90@ieee.org> > On Mar 28, 2017, at 12:09 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Hi PDP-11 game players ? >> >> I found that the famous QIX game was ported to the PDP-11 !! >> See http://imgur.com/a/gtPfh > > I don't know which PDP-11 that is either. It's a 3rd party card. > Anyone recognize it? > > -ethan Here is a link to other pictures of the same board. http://www.compsy.de/moduls/modbesch/roi%20j11-8.htm Jerry From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 12:55:55 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:55:55 -0400 Subject: Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: <7ef03352-7d44-6b46-0c68-db5f977217c8@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> <7ef03352-7d44-6b46-0c68-db5f977217c8@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20170328135555.1fc5ad9a36093c2fd635f259@gmail.com> > Then it's a regional thing. "Scrounge up," or to "scrounge around," is certainly commonly used to mean, "find something in a pile of mess" in the southeastern US. Mostly equivalent to "scare up." Thanks, Jonathan From wilson at dbit.com Tue Mar 28 12:59:15 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:59:15 -0400 Subject: QIX game on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170328175915.GA24312@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 04:35:46PM +0000, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >Does anybody have a lead to the software? That would be awesome! Here's a link to the VAX version: www.decuslib.com/decus/vax_games/mqix/ So it's written in three languages ... and it's multi-user. Could be a useful starting point though? John Wilson D Bit From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 12:20:23 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Parent Allison) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:20:23 -0400 Subject: QIX game on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EB01EB2-AC1A-4885-9D14-A5EA46300891@gmail.com> On Mar 28, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Hi PDP-11 game players ? >> >> I found that the famous QIX game was ported to the PDP-11 !! >> See http://imgur.com/a/gtPfh > > I don't know which PDP-11 that is either. It's a 3rd party card. > Anyone recognize it? > > -ethan Its defiantely J11 powered, the white ceramic chip carrier gives that away. Likely a J11 power Q or Unibus CPU of late vintage. Allison From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Mar 28 12:39:18 2017 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:39:18 -0400 Subject: Apple 1, Commodore 65, Enigma Machine, Inventor of C++ Message-ID: <684c1091-f04b-8077-7ae4-69539f928e67@snarc.net> "What do an Apple 1, Commodore 65, Enigma Machine, and the inventor of C++ all have in common?" "They all be at VCF East this weekend." You should go, too. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 13:16:09 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:16:09 -0400 Subject: QIX game on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <5EB01EB2-AC1A-4885-9D14-A5EA46300891@gmail.com> References: <5EB01EB2-AC1A-4885-9D14-A5EA46300891@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170328141609.03dda500ee765f267844ef2f@gmail.com> > Likely a J11 power Q or Unibus CPU of late vintage. Looks similar to a Mentec KDJ11-B workalike, I don't remember their designation. Onboard RAM and DLV11-J from what I remember... Thanks, Jonathan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 28 13:21:32 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: <20170328135555.1fc5ad9a36093c2fd635f259@gmail.com> References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> <7ef03352-7d44-6b46-0c68-db5f977217c8@telegraphics.com.au> <20170328135555.1fc5ad9a36093c2fd635f259@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Mar 2017, Systems Glitch via cctalk wrote: >> Then it's a regional thing. > "Scrounge up," or to "scrounge around," is certainly commonly used to > mean, "find something in a pile of mess" in the southeastern US. Mostly > equivalent to "scare up." California: "Scrounge the keyboards, memory, and drives from the machines being discarded." "Scrounge up a parallel port for the printer server" (forage, salvage, scavenge, etc.) But, the "pilferage" meaning does give some context to the administration attempts to fire a colleague for scrounging stuff from the dumpsters! (PDP, 5170s, VT100s, Northstar Horizon, Processor Technology Sol, Lisa, etc.) From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Mar 28 15:16:52 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:16:52 -0700 Subject: DEC VT520 in San Jose In-Reply-To: <7034d3f4-815f-1bd1-4bc7-ea55753b9259@sbcglobal.net> References: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> <7CC7AC1F-C438-4E1A-8756-2A725BA871BF@nf6x.net> <7034d3f4-815f-1bd1-4bc7-ea55753b9259@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I?d already arranged to pick it up by the time you posted this. ;) It works great! The seller only had an HP keyboard for it though (as shown), not an LK411, and those are terribly expensive right now on eBay. Still, it works just fine, and is nice and crisp amber on black even at 132?50. -- Chris > On Mar 26, 2017, at 1:01 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > > Saw this on Craigslist so if anyone needs one it's reasonable at $35 working. > > https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/sys/6060214206.html > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Mar 28 15:23:47 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:23:47 +0100 Subject: Not Getting Emails Message-ID: <00c001d2a801$3591b1a0$a0b514e0$@ntlworld.com> I have not had any emails from cctalk for 2 or 3 weeks. I went to my subscription details and saw that emails were disabled for me. I re-enabled them a few days ago but I still have not received any new emails. I can see that there is traffic by looking at the archives, and if I am not getting emails I hope to at least see this one appear in the archive and hopefully read replies there too. Is it just me? Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 28 15:31:05 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Not Getting Emails In-Reply-To: <00c001d2a801$3591b1a0$a0b514e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c001d2a801$3591b1a0$a0b514e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Mar 2017, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have not had any emails from cctalk for 2 or 3 weeks. I went to my > subscription details and saw that emails were disabled for me. I re-enabled > them a few days ago but I still have not received any new emails. I can see > that there is traffic by looking at the archives, and if I am not getting > emails I hope to at least see this one appear in the archive and hopefully > read replies there too. Is it just me? > Regards > Rob I received this one on the list. I haven't had any problems with list mail. at all. But, that doesn't mean that everybody else has been so fortunate. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ams at gnu.org Tue Mar 28 15:32:06 2017 From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:32:06 -0400 Subject: Not Getting Emails In-Reply-To: <00c001d2a801$3591b1a0$a0b514e0$@ntlworld.com> (message from Rob Jarratt via cctalk on Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:23:47 +0100) References: <00c001d2a801$3591b1a0$a0b514e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I have not had any emails from cctalk for 2 or 3 weeks. I went to my subscription details and saw that emails were disabled for me. I re-enabled them a few days ago but I still have not received any new emails. I can see that there is traffic by looking at the archives, and if I am not getting emails I hope to at least see this one appear in the archive and hopefully read replies there too. Is it just me? No. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Mar 28 15:37:32 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:37:32 +0100 Subject: Not Getting Emails In-Reply-To: References: <00c001d2a801$3591b1a0$a0b514e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00c701d2a803$200d5a80$60280f80$@ntlworld.com> > > I received this one on the list. > > I haven't had any problems with list mail. at all. > But, that doesn't mean that everybody else has been so fortunate. > > -- Thanks. I saw it appear in the archive. I have checked junk mail, but have found nothing. I don't know how to diagnose it. My profile page says there have been 3 bounces, but there have been many more emails than that posted to the list. I suppose it needs the mail list admin to go and look in the logs. Regards Rob From akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to Tue Mar 28 16:08:45 2017 From: akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:08:45 -0400 Subject: pile of gear for sale (DEC, Sun, PC, ephemera, v.35 cables, etc etc) Message-ID: <0qinmtkt2a.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> I have about four or five hundred things I'm ready to stop owning. I'm in Boston. If anyone wants a number of objects, I could deliver to VCF East this weekend. Inventory list at: http://threefingered.com/2017_inventory_3.html I have someone interested in getting all of the TK-50s, OSF/1 and Digital Unix CDs, and some of the VME boards, so those things might not be available. Contact me at decruft @ mirror.to please. Items I'd especially like to find good homes for are the DECNIS cables and the Adak ISDN box, anyone interested in those items is welcome to them for cost of postage and a good story about why you want it. From mj at mjturner.net Tue Mar 28 16:12:42 2017 From: mj at mjturner.net (Michael-John Turner) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:12:42 +0100 Subject: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay Message-ID: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> Hi, I came across this on eBay today: www.ebay.com/itm/162446083760 To quote from the listing: Own a piece of gaming history! This Indy workstation was once owned by Acclaim Entertainment, the legendary game publisher, and was liquidated at Acclaim's bankruptcy sale in 2004. It sat untouched in a Brooklyn warehouse for more than a decade before being recovered last year. This Indy, "pup," was used for internal Acclaim business operations at its headquarters in Glen Cove, NY. It features user account information and internal company files for a number of Acclaim employees: Andy Skalka: More than a hundred e-mail messages about Acclaim IT operations (see photos) Danielle Papsidero: More than five hundred e-mail messages (see photos) Rob Zimmelman: Image sequence for Dragonheart game combat EVa motion capture editing software (unlicensed) BioMotion motion capture editing software (unlicensed) Motion captured animation data (Dreamworks, baseball, Batman, etc.) Licenses: various expired and/or inactive licenses for Nichimen N-World and BioMotionEditor No affiliation with the seller, but it sounds like an interesting piece of history. Price is $199 BIN. Cheers, MJ -- Michael-John Turner * mj at mjturner.net * http://mjturner.net/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 16:16:29 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:16:29 -0700 Subject: DEC VT520 in San Jose In-Reply-To: References: <20170321003336.GA23696@minnie.tuhs.org> <7CC7AC1F-C438-4E1A-8756-2A725BA871BF@nf6x.net> <7034d3f4-815f-1bd1-4bc7-ea55753b9259@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: The VT520 is one of my favorite modern DEC terminals. Small and doesn't take up a lot of room but still perfectly readable in 50 line mode if the CRT isn't too old and tired. It also supports dual simultaneous sessions as well, doesn't it? You get color with the VT525, but then you need to hook it up to a suitable display. Many of the LCD displays I have tried with a VT525 are not happy with the display modes it uses and can result in less readable displays compared to the VT520. Fortunately I have been able to acquire 4 or 5 LK411 keyboards at reasonable prices over the years. A couple were around $5 each at RE-PC in Seattle a year or two ago. -Glen On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I?d already arranged to pick it up by the time you posted this. ;) > > It works great! The seller only had an HP keyboard for it though (as > shown), not an LK411, and those are terribly expensive right now on eBay. > Still, it works just fine, and is nice and crisp amber on black even at > 132?50. > > -- Chris > > > On Mar 26, 2017, at 1:01 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Saw this on Craigslist so if anyone needs one it's reasonable at $35 > working. > > > > https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/sys/6060214206.html > > > > Bob > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Mar 28 16:22:34 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:22:34 -0700 Subject: Ann Arbor Ambassador XL / Re: pile of gear for sale (DEC, Sun, PC, ephemera, v.35 cables, etc etc) In-Reply-To: <0qinmtkt2a.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qinmtkt2a.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <62239DD4-4E81-47CD-9245-C97127D492B6@shaw.ca> On 2017-Mar-28, at 2:08 PM, Andrew K. Bressen via cctalk wrote: > I have about four or five hundred things I'm ready to stop owning. > I'm in Boston. If anyone wants a number of objects, I could deliver > to VCF East this weekend. > > Inventory list at: > http://threefingered.com/2017_inventory_3.html > > I have someone interested in getting all of the TK-50s, OSF/1 and > Digital Unix CDs, and some of the VME boards, so those things might > not be available. > > Contact me at decruft @ mirror.to please. > > Items I'd especially like to find good homes for are the DECNIS > cables and the Adak ISDN box, anyone interested in those items > is welcome to them for cost of postage and a good story about why > you want it. Somebody (I don't recall who, OTTOMH) might wish to take note there is an Ann Arbor Ambassador XL terminal mentioned in there. I recall when these were mentioned on the list sometime ago somebody else expressed interest in obtaining one. I'm tempted but it's a long ways away, I'll leave it for that other party if they're closer or more motivated. (Not sure what the XL designates, I knew them as just Ann Arbor Ambassador). From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Mar 28 16:36:53 2017 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:36:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Mar 2017, Michael-John Turner via cctalk wrote: > Own a piece of gaming history! This Indy workstation was once owned > by Acclaim Entertainment, the legendary game publisher, and was > liquidated at Acclaim's bankruptcy sale in 2004. It sat untouched in a > Brooklyn warehouse for more than a decade before being recovered last > year. > Andy Skalka: More than a hundred e-mail messages about Acclaim IT > operations (see photos) > Danielle Papsidero: More than five hundred e-mail messages (see > photos) > Rob Zimmelman: Image sequence for Dragonheart game combat > EVa motion capture editing software (unlicensed) > BioMotion motion capture editing software (unlicensed) > Motion captured animation data (Dreamworks, baseball, Batman, etc.) > Licenses: various expired and/or inactive licenses for Nichimen This guy is on Reddit and has been posting lots of stuff from these machines and I can't help but feel a bit suspect about all of this. While they're old machines, the information is presumably no longer of any commercial value and the company no longer exists... I can't help but feel that this is an invasion of someone's privacy. The commercial content is one thing - although whether it's truly "abandoned" runs down into all of those arguments we see flare up in cctalk about once every two years, so let's not go there again... But... eMails? I dunno. I've been pulling a lot of data off a Cray J90 and I've had a lot of people ask me to release it to the public and I just can't bring myself to do so. I'm _pretty sure_ that it belonged to NASA, which might mean some/all of the information may even be Public Domain - but this has people's usernames, and lord knows what kind of effort they put into the work. (And that's ignoring how not-qualified I am to make the PD assertion) It just feels _wrong_ to me, personally. While I'm not specifically crapping on the guy selling this Indy - I'm kind of curious how others feel about this sort of thing as it's something I've been confronted with personally lately. Cheers; - JP From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 28 17:51:22 2017 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:51:22 -0400 Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> Message-ID: How do you feel about reading dead presidents personal letters? At some point personal information ends up being historic information. If there is money (or more money) to be made associating a Computer to a company or specific somewhat famous people then sellers will play this angle for all it is worth. Anything done on company machines is not private to begin with. What exactly are we going to learn other then people asking for vacation days, so and so is a shitty boss, the company probably used some pirated software, and early artwork or code for games might have been pretty shitty. I get computers all the time with hard drive intact full of company data (some defunct, others not) and peoples personal files, music, videos, and photos. I don't bother looking at any of it, only backing up hard to find drivers or software keys then wiping the drive. If I did come across a user that was famous (or infamous) I would probably preserve it (remove the drive and store it somewhere) while going about my hobby interest with the machine. Everything we do today is digital, sooner or later there will be no written records at all. In the distant future historians will want to know what we were doing in 2017 and they will have nothing to go by since all the websites will be long gone and all our files will have been erased or saved using backup methods nobody can make heads or tales of let alone find the programs that can read the files and computers that the programs can run on. So I think a small random fraction of users lives should be around to learn from. If for some reason we nuke ourselves into oblivion (or more likely just keep destroying the environment until we can no long function as a society) then maybe people down the road should look over out private files, posts, emails, blogs, etc. to see how people could allow it to happen. You won't be able to see government files because everything will be stamped Top Secret (or more likely deleted) including your own data they illegally obtained. -----Original Message----- From: JP Hindin via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 5:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay This guy is on Reddit and has been posting lots of stuff from these machines and I can't help but feel a bit suspect about all of this. While they're old machines, the information is presumably no longer of any commercial value and the company no longer exists... I can't help but feel that this is an invasion of someone's privacy. The commercial content is one thing - although whether it's truly "abandoned" runs down into all of those arguments we see flare up in cctalk about once every two years, so let's not go there again... But... eMails? I dunno. I've been pulling a lot of data off a Cray J90 and I've had a lot of people ask me to release it to the public and I just can't bring myself to do so. I'm _pretty sure_ that it belonged to NASA, which might mean some/all of the information may even be Public Domain - but this has people's usernames, and lord knows what kind of effort they put into the work. (And that's ignoring how not-qualified I am to make the PD assertion) It just feels _wrong_ to me, personally. While I'm not specifically crapping on the guy selling this Indy - I'm kind of curious how others feel about this sort of thing as it's something I've been confronted with personally lately. Cheers; - JP --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Mar 28 18:27:38 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:27:38 -0400 Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> Message-ID: <07e07a04-ea56-cd60-dbd7-cd72311dcb0d@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-03-28 6:51 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > How do you feel about reading dead presidents personal letters? At some > point personal information ends up being historic information. I am not a lawyer, but it almost seems like something that actual law should cover. * http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/general-business-law/gbs-sect-399-h.html * http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/intellectual-property * http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/publication-private-facts > > If there is money (or more money) to be made associating a Computer to a > company or specific somewhat famous people then sellers will play this > angle for all it is worth. Anything done on company machines is not > private to begin with. What exactly are we going to learn other then > people asking for vacation days, so and so is a shitty boss, the company > probably used some pirated software, and early artwork or code for games > might have been pretty shitty. "Nothing to hide" arguments don't justify making this public wholesale (or depriving anyone of privacy). > > I get computers all the time with hard drive intact full of company data > (some defunct, others not) and peoples personal files, music, videos, > and photos. I don't bother looking at any of it, only backing up hard to > find drivers or software keys then wiping the drive. If I did come > across a user that was famous (or infamous) I would probably preserve it > (remove the drive and store it somewhere) while going about my hobby > interest with the machine. Perhaps what you should do, is contact them, ask if they want the data, and if they say no - or you can't reach them - wipe it. But it seems that even doing this much may expose you to liability, so ask your own lawyer. > > Everything we do today is digital, sooner or later there will be no > written records at all. In the distant future historians will want to > know what we were doing in 2017 and they will have nothing to go by > since all the websites will be long gone and all our files will have > been erased or saved using backup methods nobody can make heads or tales > of let alone find the programs that can read the files and computers > that the programs can run on. So I think a small random fraction of > users lives should be around to learn from. If for some reason we nuke How about making this an opt-in scheme, not "my stuff fell into am unscrupulous stranger's hands and now it's all over the internet". > ourselves into oblivion (or more likely just keep destroying the > environment until we can no long function as a society) then maybe > people down the road should look over out private files, posts, emails, > blogs, etc. to see how people could allow it to happen. You won't be > able to see government files because everything will be stamped Top Your governments have been destroying their internal communications, or otherwise concealing them, for decades. --Toby > Secret (or more likely deleted) including your own data they illegally > obtained. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- From: JP Hindin via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 5:36 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy > (with data, emails, etc) on eBay > > > > This guy is on Reddit and has been posting lots of stuff from these > machines and I can't help but feel a bit suspect about all of this. While > they're old machines, the information is presumably no longer of any > commercial value and the company no longer exists... I can't help but feel > that this is an invasion of someone's privacy. The commercial content is > one thing - although whether it's truly "abandoned" runs down into all of > those arguments we see flare up in cctalk about once every two years, so > let's not go there again... > > But... eMails? I dunno. I've been pulling a lot of data off a Cray J90 and > I've had a lot of people ask me to release it to the public and I just > can't bring myself to do so. I'm _pretty sure_ that it belonged to NASA, > which might mean some/all of the information may even be Public Domain - > but this has people's usernames, and lord knows what kind of effort they > put into the work. (And that's ignoring how not-qualified I am to make the > PD assertion) > > It just feels _wrong_ to me, personally. > > While I'm not specifically crapping on the guy selling this Indy - I'm > kind of curious how others feel about this sort of thing as it's something > I've been confronted with personally lately. > > Cheers; > > - JP > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From wilson at dbit.com Tue Mar 28 19:03:26 2017 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:03:26 -0400 Subject: Ann Arbor Ambassador XL / Re: pile of gear for sale (DEC, Sun, PC, ephemera, v.35 cables, etc etc) In-Reply-To: <62239DD4-4E81-47CD-9245-C97127D492B6@shaw.ca> References: <0qinmtkt2a.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <62239DD4-4E81-47CD-9245-C97127D492B6@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <20170329000326.GA30548@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 02:22:34PM -0700, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >(Not sure what the XL designates, I knew them as just Ann Arbor Ambassador). It's a newer version. I think maybe 60 lines vs. 48 for the classic AAA? Could be wrong. John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 28 19:38:31 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:38:31 -0700 Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> Message-ID: <678892dc-4bc3-153a-6221-25976ddc0d2e@sydex.com> On 03/28/2017 02:36 PM, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote: > But... eMails? I dunno. I've been pulling a lot of data off a Cray > J90 and I've had a lot of people ask me to release it to the public > and I just can't bring myself to do so. I'm _pretty sure_ that it > belonged to NASA, which might mean some/all of the information may > even be Public Domain - but this has people's usernames, and lord > knows what kind of effort they put into the work. (And that's > ignoring how not-qualified I am to make the PD assertion) > > It just feels _wrong_ to me, personally. Well, as someone who occasionally does work for JPL, I should mention that a lot of the stuff you may find from the 80s and 90s may still be classified--or at least sensitive. Doubtless there are federal laws about this sort of thing and you really don't want the black van pulling up in front of your place. --Chuck From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Mar 28 19:45:01 2017 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:45:01 -0700 Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> Message-ID: On Mar 28, 2017, at 2:36 PM, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote: > > While I'm not specifically crapping on the guy selling this Indy - I'm kind of curious how others feel about this sort of thing as it's something I've been confronted with personally lately. It?s going to make it harder for people to get castoff hardware, because companies are going to err on the side of destroying anything that might possibly be sensitive. (Just as many already do.) Do you really think such companies will pull drives and shred just the drives before scrapping systems? Or is it more likely they?ll just put the entire systems through a shredder? And even if they did just pull drives, what if they use a hard-to-find interconnect, or an OS that can?t be easily reloaded? -- Chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 28 20:21:13 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: <678892dc-4bc3-153a-6221-25976ddc0d2e@sydex.com> References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> <678892dc-4bc3-153a-6221-25976ddc0d2e@sydex.com> Message-ID: When I did media conversion for people, I ignored their content, other than monitoring for quality control. Same as when I used to do photographic color printing, and did some for other people. Anything else would be seriously unethical. THAT is simple professional ethics. Otherwise, it's on a par with accidentally overhearing somebody else's conversation, credit card number that they are blabbing into a cellphone, ets. If and when I end up with somebody's old drive, I check for anything that they might want back, and wipe the rest. On one recent laptop, I found a folder of pictures that the previous owner had forgotten about, and was grateful to get. On another machine, the previous owner had lost a password to a site, but it was stored in the machine. I used the "saved password" to login and changed it to a known one. Not only do I not feel a right to somebody else's work, I don't have an interest. An exception is that after a friend died, I saved his documents and his non-personal pictures, as if he had shared them with me. (I kept his landscape photos, but erased his personal erotica) When I get rid of a machine, I'd like to just hand it off to somebody who would have use for it. But, if people are going through what's on old machines, then I will have to start wiping hard disks before parting with them. There are SOME people whom I would trust if they promised to wipe the content after receiving them. For others, . . . That's a hassle! Yes, it really isn't much work, but, . . . I've got a 200MB 3.5" ESDI drive to get rid of. But, now I don't think that I can do so until after I locate a WD '07 controller, connect it, and low level format it. Since "scrounging" that controller is on a priority level comparable to cleaning the gutters, it's not happening. I've got a crate of ST4096s. I've got a large collection of OQOs. I guess that before I can give them away, I need to get each and every one working, or remove its HDD. When I run into a TRS80 model 1 disk with some data and system, should I bulk erase it, or rely on the ethics of somebody who might need a boot disk? Or do I need to delay giving away anything such until I get around to setting up a system to read it? Would anybody WANT a TRSDOS 2.0 disk? APR-DOS? or a PC-DOS 1.0 disk with the weird double side (as second drive) patch? Gavilan MS-DOS 2.11J? 2.11K? Gavilan "bubble memory"? (already gave that away to somebody trustworthy) There is an implicit level of TRUST when dealing with used media and hardware. Let's not abuse it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 28 20:22:56 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/20 in Iowa (x3) Message-ID: <20170329012256.5AAB418C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Philipp Hachtmann > The 11/20 is the simplest 11 as far as I know. 'Simplest' in what sense? They certainly aren't the easiest ones to understand, with all that random control logic! The -11/04 is far easier to understand (for me, at least; YMMV). > From: Ethan Dicks > Was there ever a quad MOS memory board for the 11/20? I'm pretty sure there was never a UNIBUS quad memory card from DEC. > if anyone knows where to get a crate of 110V Boxer fans for around > $5/each, let me know New ones (not exactly the same as the originals, but the right size in the X/Y directions, if not identical in the Z, and 110V, with the same kind of power connector) are available on eBait for around $10 each. Look for "120mm 110V fan". Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 28 20:36:14 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:36:14 -0700 Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> <678892dc-4bc3-153a-6221-25976ddc0d2e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <23e70ea1-6a70-e961-8a01-b59422f0c3b0@bitsavers.org> On 3/28/17 6:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Anything else would be seriously unethical. the guy on ebay made a big deal on the net about one SGI machine that he knew had video game source code on it. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 28 20:38:06 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:38:06 -0700 Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: <23e70ea1-6a70-e961-8a01-b59422f0c3b0@bitsavers.org> References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> <678892dc-4bc3-153a-6221-25976ddc0d2e@sydex.com> <23e70ea1-6a70-e961-8a01-b59422f0c3b0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7adb251e-19c2-6e29-5527-302e773f1f1c@bitsavers.org> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/turok-source-code-ebay On 3/28/17 6:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/28/17 6:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Anything else would be seriously unethical. > > the guy on ebay made a big deal on the net about one SGI machine that he knew had video game source code on it. > > > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 20:42:40 2017 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:42:40 -0400 Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 6:51 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > How do you feel about reading dead presidents personal letters? At some > point personal information ends up being historic information. > > If there is money (or more money) to be made associating a Computer to a > company or specific somewhat famous people then sellers will play this > angle for all it is worth. Anything done on company machines *is not > private to begin with.* What exactly are we going to learn other then > people asking for vacation days, so and so is a shitty boss, the company > probably used some pirated software, and early artwork or code for games > might have been pretty shitty. > "not private to begin with" is a conveniently loose interpretation of the law. What you do on a company computer is certainly available information to the company - I won't argue that. You can not, however, conflate that with the many things that might be stored on company computers are protected from disclosure outside the company and individual. A conversation with HR about recovery from your alcoholism would certainly be protected from disclosure. > I get computers all the time with hard drive intact full of company data > (some defunct, others not) and peoples personal files, music, videos, and > photos. I don't bother looking at any of it, only backing up hard to find > drivers or software keys then wiping the drive. If I did come across a user > that was famous (or infamous) I would probably preserve it (remove the > drive and store it somewhere) while going about my hobby interest with the > machine. > > Everything we do today is digital, sooner or later there will be no > written records at all. In the distant future historians will want to know > what we were doing in 2017 and they will have nothing to go by since all > the websites will be long gone and all our files will have been erased or > saved using backup methods nobody can make heads or tales of let alone find > the programs that can read the files and computers that the programs can > run on. Maybe the wayback machine will keep this all, but that is not irrelevant to this thread. > So I think a small random fraction of users lives should be around to > learn from. But we are not talking about users from the distant past. We are talking about people who are still alive today - and probably discoverable with an easy web search. We should respect their privacy. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Mar 28 20:48:57 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:48:57 -0700 Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: <7adb251e-19c2-6e29-5527-302e773f1f1c@bitsavers.org> References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> <678892dc-4bc3-153a-6221-25976ddc0d2e@sydex.com> <23e70ea1-6a70-e961-8a01-b59422f0c3b0@bitsavers.org> <7adb251e-19c2-6e29-5527-302e773f1f1c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <58431960-d36e-d77d-8d17-2a8a0d5c324e@jwsss.com> On 3/28/2017 6:38 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > the guy on ebay made a big deal on the net about one SGI machine that he knew had video game source code on it. Not unusual. The more people crow about it the more hammers will swing on good hardware that could otherwise be repurposed. I worked @ a company which was famous for their what I call Tidy-bug attitude. They gathered up a lot of stuff about 6 months in and make a huge pile of free take stuff at the back door. including one techs private stuff while he wasn't at his desk (he had permission) and several other such small nits. but the satisfying bit of karma for this old hoarder was that they insisted on taking all the disk drives out which were of course "sensitive" and rather than hook them to a Linux machine or such with a wiper program, insisted on actually ball peening them. just so sad. They had three drives with irreplaceable no backed up software and pulls from systems which were rarely used but had software loaded which were lost. I hate to take satisfaction but I just don't work the way of ignorant solutions being the way to go because they seem simple. This one really bit them in the ass. An intelligent solution of wiping the hardware and then checking would have worked since all were sata or Pata or IDE drives easily readable. but none of their data got out in the exercise. thanks Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 28 21:22:35 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> Message-ID: >> How do you feel about reading dead presidents personal letters? At some >> point personal information ends up being historic information. The item in question seems to be ten years old. THAT doesn't sound like "historical" can or should over-ride current rights holders. At some point, "grave robbing" turns into "respectable archeology", but this doesn't seem to have reached that point. THESE "presidents" are still alive, and their PERSONAL letters are not yet "history". On Tue, 28 Mar 2017, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > "not private to begin with" is a conveniently loose interpretation of the > law. What you do on a company computer is certainly available information > to the company - I won't argue that. You can not, however, conflate that > with the many things that might be stored on company computers are > protected from disclosure outside the company and individual. A > conversation with HR about recovery from your alcoholism would certainly be > protected from disclosure. There is a concept of "in the public eye" that takes away most privacy of things done in public, or as official actions. Nixon's Oval Office actions did not have an expectation of privacy, but his bedroom did. (Not that that would be interesting, I'm willing to believe from his values and attitudes that Nixon was a virgin) SOME privacy ceases on death. SOME lasts until it is clear that the actions are "historical" rather than "personal" >> (some defunct, others not) and peoples personal files, music, videos, and >> photos. I don't bother looking at any of it, only backing up hard to find >> drivers or software keys then wiping the drive. If I did come across a user >> that was famous (or infamous) I would probably preserve it (remove the >> drive and store it somewhere) while going about my hobby interest with the >> machine. If it is a person who is alive, or RECENTLY deceased (Jobs?), it should be returned to them or their estate. Long ago, no problem. There is not a clear line to draw. >> Everything we do today is digital, sooner or later there will be no >> written records at all. In the distant future historians will want to know >> what we were doing in 2017 and they will have nothing to go by since all >> the websites will be long gone and all our files will have been erased or >> saved using backup methods nobody can make heads or tales of let alone find >> the programs that can read the files and computers that the programs can >> run on. Who said, "the internet is written in sand"? > Maybe the wayback machine will keep this all, but that is not irrelevant to > this thread. >> So I think a small random fraction of users lives should be around to >> learn from. But, not while they (or theirs) are still around to be affected by the release. > But we are not talking about users from the distant past. We are talking > about people who are still alive today - and probably discoverable with an > easy web search. We should respect their privacy. Al's link was for Turok source code. It came out in 2008. I seriously doubt that it could be considered to be "abandoned". Even if acquired in good faith through oversight or accident, it would not be appropriate to release somebody's source code. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 28 22:53:25 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:53:25 -0700 Subject: PreOwned machine privacy - Was: Acclaim Entertainment Indy (with data, emails, etc) on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20170328211242.ja2m4qksdvn2hbuv@tesla.turnde.net> <678892dc-4bc3-153a-6221-25976ddc0d2e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5b3f1070-0955-cdca-ffde-02dcb0efd7cb@sydex.com> On 03/28/2017 06:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > When I did media conversion for people, I ignored their content, > other than monitoring for quality control. Same as when I used to do > photographic color printing, and did some for other people. Anything > else would be seriously unethical. THAT is simple professional > ethics. Just so--I still do a fair amount of conversion and a lot of it is very personal stuff. I may spot-check the output in places to make sure that it's not garbage, but otherwise, it's strictly not for my eyes. Back when I used to do forensic processing for various law enforcement organizations, I was sometimes called upon to help reconstruct data. The only time that I paid attention to one such process, it was the journal of a sexual predator. It made me ill to read it and I vowed never to do that again--and I didn't. --Chuck From akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to Wed Mar 29 00:35:56 2017 From: akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 01:35:56 -0400 Subject: Ann Arbor Ambassador XL / Re: pile of gear for sale (DEC, Sun, PC, ephemera, v.35 cables, etc etc) In-Reply-To: <20170329000326.GA30548@dbit.dbit.com> (John Wilson via cctalk's message of "Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:03:26 -0400") References: <0qinmtkt2a.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <62239DD4-4E81-47CD-9245-C97127D492B6@shaw.ca> <20170329000326.GA30548@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <0q7f38lk5f.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> > On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 02:22:34PM -0700, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>(Not sure what the XL designates, I knew them as just Ann Arbor Ambassador). > John Wilson via cctalk writes: > It's a newer version. I think maybe 60 lines vs. 48 for the classic AAA? > Could be wrong. > > John Wilson > D Bit Yeah, it has a pretty tall aspect ratio, 60 lines seems very believable. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 29 03:29:40 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:29:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Apple 1, Commodore 65, Enigma Machine, Inventor of C++ In-Reply-To: <684c1091-f04b-8077-7ae4-69539f928e67@snarc.net> References: <684c1091-f04b-8077-7ae4-69539f928e67@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Mar 2017, Evan Koblentz wrote: > "What do an Apple 1, Commodore 65, Enigma Machine, and the inventor of C++ > all have in common?" They're just overestimated pieces of junk ;-) (and C++, not its inventor) [duck...] Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 29 03:32:01 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:32:01 +0200 (CEST) Subject: QIX game on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20170328141609.03dda500ee765f267844ef2f@gmail.com> References: <5EB01EB2-AC1A-4885-9D14-A5EA46300891@gmail.com> <20170328141609.03dda500ee765f267844ef2f@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Mar 2017, Systems Glitch wrote: > Looks similar to a Mentec KDJ11-B workalike, I don't remember their > designation. Onboard RAM and DLV11-J from what I remember... The board says SBC J11-8, so that should give a hint. Christian From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 07:48:11 2017 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:48:11 -0400 Subject: Ann Arbor Ambassador XL / Re: pile of gear for sale (DEC, Sun, PC, ephemera, v.35 cables, etc etc) In-Reply-To: <0q7f38lk5f.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qinmtkt2a.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <62239DD4-4E81-47CD-9245-C97127D492B6@shaw.ca> <20170329000326.GA30548@dbit.dbit.com> <0q7f38lk5f.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: I'm definitely interested in the Ann Arbor terminal - I have sent you a couple of messages but haven't heard back - I'm not sure if I have the right address? Let me know. Thanks! -Ian On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 1:35 AM, Andrew K. Bressen via cctalk wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 02:22:34PM -0700, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >>>(Not sure what the XL designates, I knew them as just Ann Arbor Ambassador). >> > > John Wilson via cctalk writes: >> It's a newer version. I think maybe 60 lines vs. 48 for the classic AAA? >> Could be wrong. >> >> John Wilson >> D Bit > > Yeah, it has a pretty tall aspect ratio, 60 lines seems very believable. > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 29 08:40:22 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 09:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? Message-ID: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, a question about generic analog stuff. In the process of getting SD cards to work, Dave is seeing square-wave noise on a line. (1V of square wave, with pulses about 400ns long, running at 375kHz.) The line runs through a flat cable of modest length, along with other signal-carrying lines. (No, we were not smart, and didn't put ground lines between each pair of signal lines!) Could cross-talk cause this kind of noise? We would have thought that you'd only get spikes, associated with the rising and trailing edges of a signal in a parallel wire, not a whole square-wave. During the constant-current period in the middle of the pulse, there shouldn't be any cross-talk? Is there some mechanism I/we don't understand that could do that? (My guess is there's a leakage path in the circuitry on one end or the other, not cross-talk in the cable, but...) Thanks! Noel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 29 08:57:04 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:57:04 +0000 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Is there any load resistance at the end of the line? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:40:22 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? Hi, a question about generic analog stuff. In the process of getting SD cards to work, Dave is seeing square-wave noise on a line. (1V of square wave, with pulses about 400ns long, running at 375kHz.) The line runs through a flat cable of modest length, along with other signal-carrying lines. (No, we were not smart, and didn't put ground lines between each pair of signal lines!) Could cross-talk cause this kind of noise? We would have thought that you'd only get spikes, associated with the rising and trailing edges of a signal in a parallel wire, not a whole square-wave. During the constant-current period in the middle of the pulse, there shouldn't be any cross-talk? Is there some mechanism I/we don't understand that could do that? (My guess is there's a leakage path in the circuitry on one end or the other, not cross-talk in the cable, but...) Thanks! Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 29 09:08:23 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? Message-ID: <20170329140823.093D818C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dwight Kelvey > Is there any load resistance at the end of the line? Yes, 270K to ground (i.e. pretty large). How does that have an effect on whether cross-talk can create a square wave? Sorry, I'm not understanding. Noel From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 09:50:30 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:50:30 +0200 Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 28 March 2017 at 18:58, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Maybe it has a slightly different connotation on this side of the pond; I don't think it would mean "borderline theft" for most people. I did Google it first! :-) Note definition 1 here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scrounge "Steal, swipe" -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 10:00:26 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:00:26 +0100 Subject: PSU protection with resettable polyfuse Message-ID: Hi folks, The PSU for my Executel 8085 system is an Astec AC8151-01 40W 5A unit that puts out +5/+12/-12V. A while back somone suggested using an ATX PSU in its place which TBH I'd forgotten about untl I saw a breakout board that you plug a 20 or 24 pin ATX supply into and it terminates each rail in whatever you choose to solder in. ukp8, rude not to :) My only worry is an ATX PSU is capable of putting out a lot more than 5A if it goes wrong so I'd like to protect each rail with an appropriate fuse. Any downsides to resettable polyfuses? Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Mar 29 10:05:03 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:05:03 -0400 Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <2f8608d9-05a7-4a0e-2dd8-f93c2a9ad7e5@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-03-29 10:50 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 28 March 2017 at 18:58, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >> Maybe it has a slightly different connotation on this side of the pond; I don't think it would mean "borderline theft" for most people. > > I did Google it first! :-) > > Note definition 1 here: > > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scrounge > > "Steal, swipe" > > > > But you must have overlooked the intransitive definition below: "to search about and turn up something needed from whatever source is available". I'm pretty sure that's the sense Jim was using (and it's certainly not restricted to North America; I learned it in British English). --T From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 10:23:45 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:23:45 +0200 Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: <2f8608d9-05a7-4a0e-2dd8-f93c2a9ad7e5@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> <2f8608d9-05a7-4a0e-2dd8-f93c2a9ad7e5@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 29 March 2017 at 17:05, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > But you must have overlooked the intransitive definition below: "to search > about and turn up something needed from whatever source is available". > > I'm pretty sure that's the sense Jim was using (and it's certainly not > restricted to North America; I learned it in British English). No, it's a fair cop, I did notice that. I specifically looked for an American source today, but yesterday I didn't. It seems very odd to me to talk about scrounging something that you already own, though, that's the point. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 10:24:46 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (Systems Glitch) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:24:46 -0400 Subject: PSU protection with resettable polyfuse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170329112446.447150fcf0115025f460b7c8@gmail.com> > Any downsides to resettable polyfuses? If you hit them hard enough, they'll sometimes permanently open, which is desirable anyway but does require rework. I don't remember how they stack up speed-wise, I'm sure it's in the datasheets. Thanks, Jonathan From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 10:36:56 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:36:56 +0100 Subject: PSU protection with resettable polyfuse In-Reply-To: <20170329112446.447150fcf0115025f460b7c8@gmail.com> References: <20170329112446.447150fcf0115025f460b7c8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 29 March 2017 at 16:24, Systems Glitch wrote: > If you hit them hard enough, they'll sometimes permanently open, which is > desirable anyway but does require rework. I don't remember how they stack > up speed-wise, I'm sure it's in the datasheets. I don't mind that, better rework that distribution than whatever's been belted. I didn't know resettable fuses existed until I accidentally zapped a Raspberry Pi by dragging it under my metal iMac. That's got a 2A polyfuse and it was back in service 30 mins later. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 29 11:05:01 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 09:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> <2f8608d9-05a7-4a0e-2dd8-f93c2a9ad7e5@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > On 29 March 2017 at 17:05, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> But you must have overlooked the intransitive definition below: "to search >> about and turn up something needed from whatever source is available". >> I'm pretty sure that's the sense Jim was using (and it's certainly not >> restricted to North America; I learned it in British English). On Wed, 29 Mar 2017, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > No, it's a fair cop, I did notice that. I specifically looked for an > American source today, but yesterday I didn't. > It seems very odd to me to talk about scrounging something that you > already own, though, that's the point. It's amazing how isolated pockets of our cultures can be from each other! "Multiple peoples divided by a common language" I definitely grew up with "scrounging" meaning to forage/scavenge something from one's own junk heap. "I needed to add a cleat, so I scrounged up a cutoff scrap of 2x4" (I wonder if "up" in that is important?) "need a doorstop, go scrounge up a Timex/Sinclair" Similarly, it often surprises me to encounter people who have significant differences in nursery rhymes or idiomatic phrases from one another. "But, EVERYBODY says it that way!" For all of our international communications, we still end up with isolated pockets of minor, but very definite, differences. Usually, but not always geographically based. My family was "bi-coastal", alternating between Berkeley and Washington, DC. My PhD thesis advisor was British. So, I can mispell things in several variants. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 11:40:22 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:40:22 -0600 Subject: PSU protection with resettable polyfuse In-Reply-To: <20170329112446.447150fcf0115025f460b7c8@gmail.com> References: <20170329112446.447150fcf0115025f460b7c8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Systems Glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Any downsides to resettable polyfuses? > > If you hit them hard enough, they'll sometimes permanently open, which is > desirable anyway but does require rework. I don't remember how they stack > up speed-wise, I'm sure it's in the datasheets. > They're not very fast. They're comparable to a slow-blow fuse. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 29 12:01:30 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:01:30 -0700 Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> <2f8608d9-05a7-4a0e-2dd8-f93c2a9ad7e5@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 03/29/2017 09:05 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > It's amazing how isolated pockets of our cultures can be from each > other! "Multiple peoples divided by a common language" This is something that continually delights me, from the time that I was ridiculed by the downstate Hoosier farmers' sons for calling a green runner bean a "string bean". "Those ain't string beans, they're green beans. String beans are yellow." One wonders what would have been the reaction if I'd referred to them as haricot beans. Or the time an English co-worker related the story surrounding her initial job interval in the US. She described the stunned look on the face of the desk clerk at the local Holiday Inn when she asked to be knocked up at 7:30 the next morning. Even in the last few days, discussion on another list concerned the words "proctor" and "invigilate". USA English uses the word "proctor" both as a verb and a noun to denote the task of supervising a written examination. British English uses "invigilate" and "invigilator" for that. "Proctor" occurs only as a noun--and when not a church official, denotes someone whose job description involves discipline. "Invigilate" is pretty much unknown in US English, though Canadian English uses it. It's a wonder that we can communicate so well between continents on this list in spite of regional differences. It used to be that there were very substantial differences in the vocabulary used by different manufacturers (cf. "Label" vs. "VTOC") but that seems to have standardized greatly now. For whatever it's worth, Chuck From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 12:07:28 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:07:28 +0100 Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> <2f8608d9-05a7-4a0e-2dd8-f93c2a9ad7e5@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 6:01 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Or the time an English co-worker related the story surrounding her > initial job interval in the US. She described the stunned look on the > face of the desk clerk at the local Holiday Inn when she asked to be > knocked up at 7:30 the next morning. Another one.... An English lady had a lot of explaining to do when she asked 'Where can I buy a joint for the weekend'. In England, 'joint' often means a piece of meat for roasting, not a cigarette containing drugs. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 29 12:17:17 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:17:17 -0700 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <20170329140823.093D818C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170329140823.093D818C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <754c03ef-c675-0a82-0863-87c5b0729860@sydex.com> On 03/29/2017 07:08 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Dwight Kelvey > >> Is there any load resistance at the end of the line? > > Yes, 270K to ground (i.e. pretty large). How does that have an effect > on whether cross-talk can create a square wave? Sorry, I'm not > understanding. 1v across 270K represents 3.7 microamps, which isn't much, particularly at 25MHz. (I assume that you're using SPI to access the card, but the observation still holds). And if you're using SPI, have you installed pullups on unused pins? SD cards can be very noisy devices--remember that they have "smarts" inside, so they're not passive devices. I'd go to interleaved ground cable or UTP for the device. Also, make sure that your 3.3V supply is adequately decoupled--an SD card can draw somewhere n the neighborhood of 100ma when operating, if the datasheets are to be believed. I use a separate 3.3V LDO regulator at the SD card socket. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 29 12:25:40 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:25:40 -0400 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <754c03ef-c675-0a82-0863-87c5b0729860@sydex.com> References: <20170329140823.093D818C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <754c03ef-c675-0a82-0863-87c5b0729860@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7743768E-C0A5-41B5-859C-0F3B79D93C32@comcast.net> > On Mar 29, 2017, at 1:17 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 03/29/2017 07:08 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> From: Dwight Kelvey >> >>> Is there any load resistance at the end of the line? >> >> Yes, 270K to ground (i.e. pretty large). How does that have an effect >> on whether cross-talk can create a square wave? Sorry, I'm not >> understanding. > > 1v across 270K represents 3.7 microamps, which isn't much, particularly > at 25MHz. (I assume that you're using SPI to access the card, but the > observation still holds). And if you're using SPI, have you installed > pullups on unused pins? > > SD cards can be very noisy devices--remember that they have "smarts" > inside, so they're not passive devices. > > I'd go to interleaved ground cable or UTP for the device. Also, make > sure that your 3.3V supply is adequately decoupled--an SD card can draw > somewhere n the neighborhood of 100ma when operating, if the datasheets > are to be believed. I use a separate 3.3V LDO regulator at the SD card > socket. SD cards are not SPI, they are a variation of MMC. As with other interconnects, it's good to consider the connections as transmission lines, and look at what termination is expected. 270k seems like a rather strange value, it certainly can't be a termination and it isn't a plausible pulldown either. The SD spec should explain what is expected; I knew it at one time but forgot by now. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 29 13:18:01 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> <2f8608d9-05a7-4a0e-2dd8-f93c2a9ad7e5@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: >> It's amazing how isolated pockets of our cultures can be from each >> other! "Multiple peoples divided by a common language" On Wed, 29 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > This is something that continually delights me, from the time that I was > ridiculed by the downstate Hoosier farmers' sons for calling a green > runner bean a "string bean". "Those ain't string beans, they're green > beans. String beans are yellow." One wonders what would have been the > reaction if I'd referred to them as haricot beans. SOME people insist that "haricot beans" are navy beans or Boston beans! > Or the time an English co-worker related the story surrounding her > initial job interval in the US. She described the stunned look on the > face of the desk clerk at the local Holiday Inn when she asked to be > knocked up at 7:30 the next morning. British V American/"Colonial"? idioms are not surprising. What's more surprising are the mutually exclusive variations within a country. > It's a wonder that we can communicate so well between continents on this > list in spite of regional differences. It used to be that there were > very substantial differences in the vocabulary used by different > manufacturers (cf. "Label" vs. "VTOC") but that seems to have > standardized greatly now. Some manufacturers seemed to go out of their way to AVOID using the same terms as their competitors. Even on stuff as simple as a disk space allocation unit. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 29 13:22:22 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? Message-ID: <20170329182222.F0B1A18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> I should mention that this is a pre-prototype; the final thing won't have a cable at all; so this isn't a fundamental issue with the design (if it is cross-talk). And the SD card isn't even plugged in when we see this - if it is cross-talk, it has to be some other signal carried in the cable. We're just trying to figure out how cross-talk can possibly produce an induced square-wave. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 29 13:32:05 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:32:05 -0400 Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> <2f8608d9-05a7-4a0e-2dd8-f93c2a9ad7e5@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <92FB862A-9B17-4E23-B247-B8FF7B89AC20@comcast.net> > On Mar 29, 2017, at 2:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> It's amazing how isolated pockets of our cultures can be from each >>> other! "Multiple peoples divided by a common language" > > On Wed, 29 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > ... >> Or the time an English co-worker related the story surrounding her >> initial job interval in the US. She described the stunned look on the >> face of the desk clerk at the local Holiday Inn when she asked to be >> knocked up at 7:30 the next morning. > > British V American/"Colonial"? idioms are not surprising. > What's more surprising are the mutually exclusive variations within a country. Not at all. Linguists have a term for this: dialects. Actually, that applies anywhere, country borders are not relevant; it simply means two variations of a language that are "mutually intellegible". That may be a bit of a judgment call. As a not-native speaker of English I tend to have trouble with, say, the Welsh dialect of English. If dialects diverge to the point that they aren't mutually intellegible, a linguist calls that two languages. So China has lots of languages, not just many dialects. Conversely, some argue that Norway and Sweden use two dialects of a single language. paul From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Mar 29 13:37:54 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:37:54 -0700 Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <02a3d5e1-8a7e-00f2-8bec-6b28812f8efd@jwsss.com> On 3/28/2017 9:58 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Liam Proven via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 11:23 AM > Subject: Re: Floating point routines for the 6809 > > > On 28 March 2017 at 08:54, jim stephens via cctalk > wrote: >> I need to scrounge around > I always wonder why someone understands what I mean and has to go to such a length to try to say I mean something else. Especially that I am stealing it. Sort of insulting, but to each their own. I have a lot of 6809 code that I'd like to scrounge for and share, and it is all by my hand. thanks jim From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 10:54:22 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Parent Allison) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:54:22 -0400 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> On Mar 29, 2017, at 9:40 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Hi, a question about generic analog stuff. > > In the process of getting SD cards to work, Dave is seeing square-wave noise > on a line. (1V of square wave, with pulses about 400ns long, running at > 375kHz.) The line runs through a flat cable of modest length, along with > other signal-carrying lines. (No, we were not smart, and didn't put ground > lines between each pair of signal lines!) Oops! > > Could cross-talk cause this kind of noise? We would have thought that you'd > only get spikes, associated with the rising and trailing edges of a signal in > a parallel wire, not a whole square-wave. During the constant-current period > in the middle of the pulse, there shouldn't be any cross-talk? Is there some > mechanism I/we don't understand that could do that? > Transmission line theory applies. Adjacent lines see the electric and magnetic fields nominally seen along transmission lines. Some would say it this way, you get induction from one line to another based on how those wires are routed and terminated. Its only 375khz? No, its pulses with rise and fall times in the Nanosecond region with bandwidth of hundreds of Mhz. > (My guess is there's a leakage path in the circuitry on one end or the other, > not cross-talk in the cable, but?) Nooooo. You have to treat those wires as transmission lines ( like coaxial cable or parallel pair) for signals. Its not DC leakage. You send a pulse (or a train of them) down a transmission line and if the line is not terminated the pulse energy will be reflected rather than absorbed. Is there is a signal line next to it it will see the resulting fields from the currents flowing. Add to that your ground for the SD card is remote so there will be a current flowing on that lead as well from circuit ground and the actual ground pin. This is why people do not remote SD cards (unless someone is forcing it). Its input looks like a capacitor at the end of a transmission line and incorrectly handled you get reflections and ringing. Just like backplanes and all sorts of other media. Allison > Thanks! > > Noel From dab at froghouse.org Wed Mar 29 14:53:14 2017 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:53:14 -0400 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <754c03ef-c675-0a82-0863-87c5b0729860@sydex.com> References: <20170329140823.093D818C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <754c03ef-c675-0a82-0863-87c5b0729860@sydex.com> Message-ID: > 1v across 270K represents 3.7 microamps, which isn't much, particularly > at 25MHz. (I assume that you're using SPI to access the card, but the > observation still holds). Yup, I'm planning to use the SD card in SPI mode (at least for now). And this line is the CS/CD line, so it's not even running at 25MHz. And as Noel pointed out, this is happening without the SD card even being plugged in. I'm not surprised at cross-talk, I'm surprised that the cross-talk appears so clean. It's not spikes but fairly clean, 1V square pulses. > And if you're using SPI, have you installed > pullups on unused pins? Yup, I put in all the pull-ups. > I'd go to interleaved ground cable or UTP for the device. Also, make > sure that your 3.3V supply is adequately decoupled--an SD card can draw > somewhere n the neighborhood of 100ma when operating, if the datasheets > are to be believed. I use a separate 3.3V LDO regulator at the SD card > socket. Good point. I really should have put a good decoupling cap nearby and the production card should have its own regulator. From dab at froghouse.org Wed Mar 29 14:59:22 2017 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:59:22 -0400 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <7743768E-C0A5-41B5-859C-0F3B79D93C32@comcast.net> References: <20170329140823.093D818C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <754c03ef-c675-0a82-0863-87c5b0729860@sydex.com> <7743768E-C0A5-41B5-859C-0F3B79D93C32@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0059b05b-d71c-ca22-f6cd-0f3c342db6fb@froghouse.org> > 270k seems like a rather strange value, it certainly can't be a termination and it isn't a plausible pulldown either. The SD spec should explain what is expected; I knew it at one time but forgot by now. I'll agree that 270k is a strange value. The idea is that the SD card contains an internal 50k pull-up on that line (dat[3]) so if you put a 270k pull-down on the board then you can use it for card detection. It's a little funky and I wish I'd just gone with an SD socket that had a card-detect switch but this is supposed to work too. The 1V square pulse, whereever it's coming from, is just enough that I'm detecting the card presence when there's no card plugged in yet. I can work around this in various ways but I want to understand it well enough that I'm sure I'm not ignoring a problem that's going to bite when we go to a production board. In other words, if it's simply a result of the silly ribbon cable, then I'm happy for now with a work-around. From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed Mar 29 15:06:04 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:06:04 -0700 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> Message-ID: There are few things that come to mind here. The op seemed to indicate the lines are terminated. If they are not terminated in the characteristic impedance of the source and the transmission line, it is very unlikely he would be seeing nice square waves at either end. The reflections would distort the square wave. Given the reported squareness and that the op indicates terminated line, I do not think impedance mismatch is the issue here. I also agree that an induced current in an adjacent line would not be square. So I agree with the op's thoughts that this signal is getting on this line in some other fashion, I don't believe this is an issue of cross talk. However, some pictures of some waveforms would be interesting to see Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Parent Allison via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 11:54 AM To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cross-talk square-wave? On Mar 29, 2017, at 9:40 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Hi, a question about generic analog stuff. > > In the process of getting SD cards to work, Dave is seeing square-wave > noise on a line. (1V of square wave, with pulses about 400ns long, > running at > 375kHz.) The line runs through a flat cable of modest length, along > with other signal-carrying lines. (No, we were not smart, and didn't > put ground lines between each pair of signal lines!) Oops! > > Could cross-talk cause this kind of noise? We would have thought that > you'd only get spikes, associated with the rising and trailing edges > of a signal in a parallel wire, not a whole square-wave. During the > constant-current period in the middle of the pulse, there shouldn't be > any cross-talk? Is there some mechanism I/we don't understand that could do that? > Transmission line theory applies. Adjacent lines see the electric and magnetic fields nominally seen along transmission lines. Some would say it this way, you get induction from one line to another based on how those wires are routed and terminated. Its only 375khz... No, its pulses with rise and fall times in the Nanosecond region with bandwidth of hundreds of Mhz. > (My guess is there's a leakage path in the circuitry on one end or the > other, not cross-talk in the cable, but...) Nooooo. You have to treat those wires as transmission lines ( like coaxial cable or parallel pair) for signals. Its not DC leakage. You send a pulse (or a train of them) down a transmission line and if the line is not terminated the pulse energy will be reflected rather than absorbed. Is there is a signal line next to it it will see the resulting fields from the currents flowing. Add to that your ground for the SD card is remote so there will be a current flowing on that lead as well from circuit ground and the actual ground pin. This is why people do not remote SD cards (unless someone is forcing it). Its input looks like a capacitor at the end of a transmission line and incorrectly handled you get reflections and ringing. Just like backplanes and all sorts of other media. Allison > Thanks! > > Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 29 15:18:25 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:18:25 -0400 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <7743768E-C0A5-41B5-859C-0F3B79D93C32@comcast.net> References: <20170329140823.093D818C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <754c03ef-c675-0a82-0863-87c5b0729860@sydex.com> <7743768E-C0A5-41B5-859C-0F3B79D93C32@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3D5BACDF-48AB-41EA-AC6E-F7F4624D1EBB@comcast.net> > On Mar 29, 2017, at 1:25 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > ... > SD cards are not SPI, they are a variation of MMC. Sorry about that, it turns out I was working from obsolete memories. That used to be true, isn't any longer. In any case, you're dealing with pretty fast signals, treating them as transmission lines is going to be important. paul From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 15:31:43 2017 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:31:43 -0700 Subject: Apple 1, Commodore 65, Enigma Machine, Inventor of C++ In-Reply-To: References: <684c1091-f04b-8077-7ae4-69539f928e67@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 1:29 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, 28 Mar 2017, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> "What do an Apple 1, Commodore 65, Enigma Machine, and the inventor of >> C++ all have in common?" >> > > They're just overestimated pieces of junk ;-) (and C++, not its inventor) > [duck...] > > *applause* (except the enigma is neat) -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From dab at froghouse.org Wed Mar 29 15:56:51 2017 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:56:51 -0400 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> Message-ID: > There are few things that come to mind here. The op seemed to indicate the lines are terminated. If they are not terminated in the characteristic impedance of the source and the transmission line, it is very unlikely he would be seeing nice square waves at either end. The reflections would distort the square wave. Given the reported squareness and that the op indicates terminated line, I do not think impedance mismatch is the issue here. There's certainly some ringing there but it's not the spike followed by an exponential decay that I'd expect from an induced signal. However, maybe I just don't know what an induced signal can look like so that's the question. > I also agree that an induced current in an adjacent line would not be square. So I agree with the op's thoughts that this signal is getting on this line in some other fashion, I don't believe this is an issue of cross talk. However, some pictures of some waveforms would be interesting to see Ask and receive. See: http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/pic_24_1.gif The bottom signal is the one in question and the top signal is the clock I'm sending to the SD card (which isn't plugged in at this time). I wanted to see if it was the clock single I was seeing coupled here and it's obviously not, though you can clearly see the clock inducing some noise in the CS signal. The other thing I'm seeing from this trace that I hadn't really noticed before is that 0 is not 0. The 0 for the bottom trace is where the 2 is on the left side. This line is suppose to be going from the 270k resistor to ground on one side across the ribbon cable to an FPGA pin which is set to high-impedance on the other. Clearly something else is going on here. From dab at froghouse.org Wed Mar 29 16:14:51 2017 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:14:51 -0400 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> Message-ID: And I think this picture is the smoking gun. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/pic_24_2.gif Again, the bottom trace is the CS signal in question and the upper trace is now one of the QBUS DAL lines (after the bus transceiver and level converter) that's running across the ribbon cable near the CS signal. It does appear that induction can make a fairly clean square wave. Well, the purpose of a prototype is to learn and this has been one learning experience after another. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 29 16:35:54 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:35:54 -0700 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c29e19d-1ab9-d2d3-e896-64c91563fff8@bitsavers.org> On 3/29/17 2:14 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > And I think this picture is the smoking gun. > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/pic_24_2.gif > > Again, the bottom trace is the CS signal in question and the upper trace > is now one of the QBUS DAL lines (after the bus transceiver and level > converter) that's running across the ribbon cable near the CS signal. > It does appear that induction can make a fairly clean square wave. > > simple thing to try is split the ribbon cable between the two signals From rlloken at telus.net Wed Mar 29 17:41:46 2017 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:41:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Model 28 Teletypes in Edmonton, Alberta Message-ID: So, my ex-wife sent my Model 28 RO and Model 28 ASR (along with a Conn vacuum tube electronic organ) to the landfill yesterday. I am told by my son that they went to the Eco Station Reuse Area at either the Ambleside or kennedale Eco Station. So, in the unlikely event that somebody wanting a 28 tty and within travelling distance of Edmonton, Alberta reads this, those items are reported to be there for taking. Oh, and bring a truck and a very strong friend. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed Mar 29 17:43:22 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:43:22 -0700 Subject: Model 28 Teletypes in Edmonton, Alberta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I might have missed it, but did you offer this on the greenkeys list (or would you like me to forward it?) they are tty enthusiasts. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Loken via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:42 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Model 28 Teletypes in Edmonton, Alberta So, my ex-wife sent my Model 28 RO and Model 28 ASR (along with a Conn vacuum tube electronic organ) to the landfill yesterday. I am told by my son that they went to the Eco Station Reuse Area at either the Ambleside or kennedale Eco Station. So, in the unlikely event that somebody wanting a 28 tty and within travelling distance of Edmonton, Alberta reads this, those items are reported to be there for taking. Oh, and bring a truck and a very strong friend. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rlloken at telus.net Wed Mar 29 17:51:55 2017 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:51:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Model 28 Teletypes in Edmonton, Alberta In-Reply-To: tMJIcBWNb8mABtMJJcE1zk References: tMJIcBWNb8mABtMJJcE1zk Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Mar 2017, W2HX wrote: > I might have missed it, but did you offer this on the greenkeys list (or > would you like me to forward it?) they are tty enthusiasts. Eugene No, I have never been a member of the green keys list and there is no point in joining now. Punt the message to the green keys list if you can. I still have (because they are small and portable) a set of model 28 service manuals, a keyboard assembly, a print mechanism (a carriage assembly?), a box of unperforated five level tape rolls, and a few unused but quite elderly ribbons if anybody has a use for them. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 29 19:33:24 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 00:33:24 +0000 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <7c29e19d-1ab9-d2d3-e896-64c91563fff8@bitsavers.org> References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> , <7c29e19d-1ab9-d2d3-e896-64c91563fff8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: 270K is not a transmission line load. As I recall ribbon cable is around 100-150 ohms impedance some place. The signal does look nice and square. I doubt is is inductive coupling, with that high a load, I'd say it was capacitive. inductive coupling requires current flowing. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 2:35:54 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cross-talk square-wave? On 3/29/17 2:14 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > And I think this picture is the smoking gun. > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/pic_24_2.gif > > Again, the bottom trace is the CS signal in question and the upper trace > is now one of the QBUS DAL lines (after the bus transceiver and level > converter) that's running across the ribbon cable near the CS signal. > It does appear that induction can make a fairly clean square wave. > > simple thing to try is split the ribbon cable between the two signals From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed Mar 29 20:48:09 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:48:09 -0700 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> , <7c29e19d-1ab9-d2d3-e896-64c91563fff8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I am still not convinced it is coupling at all. You would expect the affected line to show a signal like dV/dt , no? I just don't think you can get square waves from square waves. That's not to say the input of some logic somewhere isn't getting triggered by unintended coupling and then getting "squared up" in some gate to produce the square we see. Oh, and 270K surely is a transmission line load if the source has a characteristic impedance of 270K. Granted, that seems unusual and I don't know what the circuit looks like, but yes, most probably it is not a matched load. Having said that, given such a probable mismatch, then it is even harder to believe one could successfully couple a square wave onto such a transmission line unless the signal is actually being asserted on the line at a low impedance (ie the intentional output of a gate somewhere). Looking at this picture http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/pic_24_1.gif this shows exactly what I would expect to see with cross talk the little glitches on the CS line that correspond to edges on the clock signal. Classic dV/dt. scenario. Looking at this one http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/pic_24_2.gif again, I don't know the circuit, but I have personally witnessed this behavior on my PDP-8/e where a 7474 flip flop chip was bad. The input looked great and the output was "half baked" Here is a screenshot of what I was seeing (look for "Line OUT E29 pin5" on the scope screenshot...) http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/PDP-8e/M8650/LecroyScreen14.png (post on that subject is here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55171-PDP-8-e-Project/page6 ) Anyhow, I dunno. My jury is still out on this one. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 8:33 PM To: Al Kossow; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cross-talk square-wave? 270K is not a transmission line load. As I recall ribbon cable is around 100-150 ohms impedance some place. The signal does look nice and square. I doubt is is inductive coupling, with that high a load, I'd say it was capacitive. inductive coupling requires current flowing. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 2:35:54 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cross-talk square-wave? On 3/29/17 2:14 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > And I think this picture is the smoking gun. > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/pic_24_2.gif > > Again, the bottom trace is the CS signal in question and the upper > trace is now one of the QBUS DAL lines (after the bus transceiver and > level > converter) that's running across the ribbon cable near the CS signal. > It does appear that induction can make a fairly clean square wave. > > simple thing to try is split the ribbon cable between the two signals From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 29 21:47:19 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 22:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? Message-ID: <20170330024720.0002818C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eugene (W2HX) > I am still not convinced it is coupling at all. ... I just don't think > you can get square waves from square waves. ... > it is even harder to believe one could successfully couple a square > wave onto such a transmission line unless the signal is actually being > asserted on the line at a low impedance ... > Looking at this picture ... this shows exactly what I would expect to > see with cross talk the little glitches on the CS line that correspond > to edges on the clock signal. Exactly. That sort of cross-talk we understand (and have seen before). But a square wave? How can that be? That was the motivation for my original post. It's not super-critical to understand, because like I said, this is on a pre-prototype, and the actual unit will be arranged nothing like this (no cable, etc, etc), so we're just going to fix this with whatever kludge makes it go away, so we can focus on the things we really do need to work on. But we'd still like to understand what is happening here, and how. Could cross-talk (of whatever form, inductive or capacitive) do this, or does this more or less have to be signal leakage (on the board at one end, or the other) somehow? Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 29 21:55:27 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 21:55:27 -0500 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> , <7c29e19d-1ab9-d2d3-e896-64c91563fff8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <58DC739F.3040900@pico-systems.com> On 03/29/2017 08:48 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > I am still not convinced it is coupling at all. You would expect the affected line to show a signal like dV/dt , no? I just don't think you can get square waves from square waves. Yes, you can. The capacitance of typical cables is about 35 pF per foot. Given a couple feet of cable and essentially infinite resistive load, it would be quite likely to give a near square-wave result. If you were to load down the line with 100 Ohms, then you'd see tiny, short pulses at the edges. > That's not to say the input of some logic somewhere isn't getting triggered by unintended coupling and then getting "squared up" in some gate to produce the square we see. > > Oh, and 270K surely is a transmission line load if the source has a characteristic impedance of 270K. Granted, that seems unusual and I don't know what the circuit looks like, Well, in fact, it is impossible to make a transmission line with such impedance. The impedance of free space is supposed to be 277 Ohms, IIRC. Jon From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed Mar 29 22:16:48 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:16:48 -0700 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <58DC739F.3040900@pico-systems.com> References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> , <7c29e19d-1ab9-d2d3-e896-64c91563fff8@bitsavers.org> <58DC739F.3040900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > The impedance of free space is supposed to be 277 Ohms 377 ohms but you are right about the max impedance. I forgot about that. > Yes, you can. The capacitance of typical cables is about 35 pF per foot. Given a couple feet of cable and essentially infinite resistive load, it would be quite likely to give a near square-wave result. Except for the fact that in the same cable, the edges of the square wave of the clock is creating short pulses on the CS line. Why would the CS line now behave totally differently if theoretically coupled to the QBUS line? In theory maybe you are correct, but in the practice of troubleshooting this specific issue, I would have to say it is unlikely that an adjacent square wave clock line would cause spikes and a similarly adjacent square wave QBUS signal would cause a square wave. They would both really be expected to have the same effect as long as the CS line hasn't changed change in characteristic. My 2c Eugene -----Original Message----- From: Jon Elson [mailto:elson at pico-systems.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 10:55 PM To: W2HX; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cross-talk square-wave? On 03/29/2017 08:48 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > I am still not convinced it is coupling at all. You would expect the affected line to show a signal like dV/dt , no? I just don't think you can get square waves from square waves. Yes, you can. The capacitance of typical cables is about 35 pF per foot. Given a couple feet of cable and essentially infinite resistive load, it would be quite likely to give a near square-wave result. If you were to load down the line with 100 Ohms, then you'd see tiny, short pulses at the edges. > That's not to say the input of some logic somewhere isn't getting triggered by unintended coupling and then getting "squared up" in some gate to produce the square we see. > > Oh, and 270K surely is a transmission line load if the source has a > characteristic impedance of 270K. Granted, that seems unusual and I > don't know what the circuit looks like, Well, in fact, it is impossible to make a transmission line with such impedance. The impedance of free space is supposed to be 277 Ohms, IIRC. Jon From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Mar 30 01:41:42 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:41:42 +0200 Subject: QIX game on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <5EB01EB2-AC1A-4885-9D14-A5EA46300891@gmail.com> References: <5EB01EB2-AC1A-4885-9D14-A5EA46300891@gmail.com> Message-ID: <68d14949-dc30-4e25-4afb-9629b9f58f1a@e-bbes.com> On 2017-03-28 19:20, Parent Allison via cctalk wrote: >> I don't know which PDP-11 that is either. It's a 3rd party card. >> Anyone recognize it? >> >> -ethan > > Its defiantely J11 powered, the white ceramic chip carrier gives that away. > > Likely a J11 power Q or Unibus CPU of late vintage. ROI was actually the company which made the 11/93 cpu. And, they made a lot of stuff for European telecom equipment. So, I guess it is one of those ... From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 15:13:33 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Parent Allison) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:13:33 -0400 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> Message-ID: IT was not terminated, 270K is way to high a value (likely 1000*). Its low enough to assert a weak pull-up or down to a CMOS input but not terminate a line. Typical transmission line for that is in the 120-250ohm range and the input to a SD/MMC is a roughly 10pf cap to ground and DC open (equivalent). Also SD have two modes, one being SPI similar and the other a faster 4bit varient. I know that as I?ve used SD as ?disk? for CP/M systems with 8085 and Z80. FYI this is the same problem designers hit with DRAMS back 40 years ago. Allison On Mar 29, 2017, at 4:06 PM, W2HX wrote: > There are few things that come to mind here. The op seemed to indicate the lines are terminated. If they are not terminated in the characteristic impedance of the source and the transmission line, it is very unlikely he would be seeing nice square waves at either end. The reflections would distort the square wave. Given the reported squareness and that the op indicates terminated line, I do not think impedance mismatch is the issue here. > > I also agree that an induced current in an adjacent line would not be square. So I agree with the op's thoughts that this signal is getting on this line in some other fashion, I don't believe this is an issue of cross talk. However, some pictures of some waveforms would be interesting to see > > Eugene W2HX > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Parent Allison via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 11:54 AM > To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Cross-talk square-wave? > > > On Mar 29, 2017, at 9:40 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi, a question about generic analog stuff. >> >> In the process of getting SD cards to work, Dave is seeing square-wave >> noise on a line. (1V of square wave, with pulses about 400ns long, >> running at >> 375kHz.) The line runs through a flat cable of modest length, along >> with other signal-carrying lines. (No, we were not smart, and didn't >> put ground lines between each pair of signal lines!) > > Oops! > >> >> Could cross-talk cause this kind of noise? We would have thought that >> you'd only get spikes, associated with the rising and trailing edges >> of a signal in a parallel wire, not a whole square-wave. During the >> constant-current period in the middle of the pulse, there shouldn't be >> any cross-talk? Is there some mechanism I/we don't understand that could do that? >> > Transmission line theory applies. Adjacent lines see the electric and magnetic fields nominally seen along transmission lines. Some would say it this way, you get induction from one line to another based on how those wires are routed and terminated. > > Its only 375khz... No, its pulses with rise and fall times in the Nanosecond region with bandwidth of hundreds of Mhz. > > >> (My guess is there's a leakage path in the circuitry on one end or the >> other, not cross-talk in the cable, but...) > > Nooooo. You have to treat those wires as transmission lines ( like coaxial cable or parallel pair) for signals. Its not DC leakage. You send a pulse (or a train of them) down a transmission line and if the line is not terminated the pulse energy will be reflected rather than absorbed. Is there is a signal line next to it it will see the resulting fields from the currents flowing. > > Add to that your ground for the SD card is remote so there will be a current flowing on that lead as well from circuit ground and the actual ground pin. > > This is why people do not remote SD cards (unless someone is forcing it). Its input looks like a capacitor at the end of a transmission line and incorrectly handled you get reflections and ringing. Just like backplanes and all sorts of other media. > > > Allison > >> Thanks! >> >> Noel > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Mar 30 07:18:21 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:18:21 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> <2f8608d9-05a7-4a0e-2dd8-f93c2a9ad7e5@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <01QCL4BRO32G002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> > > Or the time an English co-worker related the story surrounding her > initial job interval in the US. She described the stunned look on the > face of the desk clerk at the local Holiday Inn when she asked to be > knocked up at 7:30 the next morning. > This reminds me of the rather surprised look on my Australian colleague's face when I said I was going to have a root in the cupboard for a missing manual. Regards, Peter Coghlan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 30 12:22:54 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:22:54 -0700 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> Message-ID: <414d026e-239d-4309-91b0-af293c6c3ef7@sydex.com> I'll offer a suggestion that if your SD card *must* be a significant distance from its host, that you employ a small MCU at the SD card and use a more noise-immune protocol to transmit data to the host. Small MCUs today are very inexpensive. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 30 13:19:32 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:19:32 +0000 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> , <7c29e19d-1ab9-d2d3-e896-64c91563fff8@bitsavers.org> , Message-ID: again, I don't know the circuit, but I have personally witnessed this behavior on my PDP-8/e where a 7474 flip flop chip was bad. The input looked great and the output was "half baked" I'll bet that flop was a Fairchild. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of W2HX via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:48:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Cross-talk square-wave? I am still not convinced it is coupling at all. You would expect the affected line to show a signal like dV/dt , no? I just don't think you can get square waves from square waves. That's not to say the input of some logic somewhere isn't getting triggered by unintended coupling and then getting "squared up" in some gate to produce the square we see. Oh, and 270K surely is a transmission line load if the source has a characteristic impedance of 270K. Granted, that seems unusual and I don't know what the circuit looks like, but yes, most probably it is not a matched load. Having said that, given such a probable mismatch, then it is even harder to believe one could successfully couple a square wave onto such a transmission line unless the signal is actually being asserted on the line at a low impedance (ie the intentional output of a gate somewhere). Looking at this picture http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/pic_24_1.gif this shows exactly what I would expect to see with cross talk the little glitches on the CS line that correspond to edges on the clock signal. Classic dV/dt. scenario. Looking at this one http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/pic_24_2.gif again, I don't know the circuit, but I have personally witnessed this behavior on my PDP-8/e where a 7474 flip flop chip was bad. The input looked great and the output was "half baked" Here is a screenshot of what I was seeing (look for "Line OUT E29 pin5" on the scope screenshot...) http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/PDP-8e/M8650/LecroyScreen14.png (post on that subject is here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55171-PDP-8-e-Project/page6 ) Anyhow, I dunno. My jury is still out on this one. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 8:33 PM To: Al Kossow; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cross-talk square-wave? 270K is not a transmission line load. As I recall ribbon cable is around 100-150 ohms impedance some place. The signal does look nice and square. I doubt is is inductive coupling, with that high a load, I'd say it was capacitive. inductive coupling requires current flowing. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 2:35:54 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cross-talk square-wave? On 3/29/17 2:14 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > And I think this picture is the smoking gun. > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/pic_24_2.gif > > Again, the bottom trace is the CS signal in question and the upper > trace is now one of the QBUS DAL lines (after the bus transceiver and > level > converter) that's running across the ribbon cable near the CS signal. > It does appear that induction can make a fairly clean square wave. > > simple thing to try is split the ribbon cable between the two signals From guy at cuillin.org.uk Thu Mar 30 14:50:10 2017 From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:50:10 +0100 Subject: Scrounging - was Floating point routines for the 6809 In-Reply-To: <01QCL4BRO32G002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20170327205320.GH30213@brevard.conman.org> <2f8608d9-05a7-4a0e-2dd8-f93c2a9ad7e5@telegraphics.com.au> <01QCL4BRO32G002QSL@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: That time in an open lab at IBM Austin when a newly arrived fellow Brit announced that he had to go out and have a fag. On 30 March 2017 at 13:18, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > > > Or the time an English co-worker related the story surrounding her > > initial job interval in the US. She described the stunned look on the > > face of the desk clerk at the local Holiday Inn when she asked to be > > knocked up at 7:30 the next morning. > > > > This reminds me of the rather surprised look on my Australian colleague's > face when I said I was going to have a root in the cupboard for a missing > manual. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan > > -- 4.4 > 5.4 From sales at elecplus.com Thu Mar 30 15:02:37 2017 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:02:37 -0500 Subject: Wyse keyboards and their variants Message-ID: <069f01d2a990$94d07580$be716080$@com> Wyse, Link, etc. Does anyone still use these on actual terminals? I have some guys coming to scrounge on Saturday, and they want them for is to desolder the switches. If you need some for actual use, please let me know the exact model you want so it does not get parted out. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 30 15:13:13 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? Message-ID: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Allison > FYI this is the same problem designers hit with DRAMS back 40 years ago. This didn't ring (pun not intended) a bell for me; can you say a bit more? > From: Chuck Guzis > I'll offer a suggestion that if your SD card *must* be a significant > distance from its host Like I said, this is a pre-prototype; on the production units, there will be _no_ cable. The SD socket will be about 1-2" from the FPGA. > From: Dwight Kelvey > this behavior on my PDP-8/e where a 7474 flip flop chip was bad. The > input looked great and the output was "half baked" There's no chip at all on the driving end of the line (just that 470K resistor); we see this with the SD card _unplugged_. And we see the exact same thing on several lines. I'm still not clear, from the discussion, how exactly that nice 'square-wave' interference is happening - could it be capacitative crosstalk? (I'd have thought capacitative cross-talk would be inverted - driving a positive voltage on one 'side' of the 'capacitor' would, I would think, induce an oppposing voltage on the other. But I'm clearly no EE! :-) Noel From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 30 15:21:25 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:21:25 -0600 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <414d026e-239d-4309-91b0-af293c6c3ef7@sydex.com> References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> <414d026e-239d-4309-91b0-af293c6c3ef7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <05ef8f4e-6d0d-a8c9-e632-6bb14c1a73e0@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/30/2017 11:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'll offer a suggestion that if your SD card *must* be a significant > distance from its host, that you employ a small MCU at the SD card and > use a more noise-immune protocol to transmit data to the host. > > Small MCUs today are very inexpensive. GO ANALOG ... ONLY A LITLE BIT OF A PROBLEM. :) > --Chuck Well that does not solve the ring, but off loading the SD card is a good idea, if you have the software time for a new cpu. Most of the time upper managment drags thier feet, unless they want it yesterday. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 30 15:24:22 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:24:22 -0700 Subject: Anyone want a Sun T-shirt? Message-ID: It's what, 27 years old... Trying to de-junk my clothes closet, I ran across an XL t-shirt bearing, on the front, a image of a ladybug with a red circle and bar across is and the legend "Getting out the last bugs". On the back, it has the Sun logo and "SunStruck 4.1.89 (Wanda)". It's in decent condition and probably dates from the time my wife worked at Sun, even though she had nothing to do with the project in question. Anyone want it? Pay for first-class mail (I'll stuff it into an envelope) and it's yours. Otherwise, it goes to Goodwill. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 30 15:59:00 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:59:00 -0700 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <05ef8f4e-6d0d-a8c9-e632-6bb14c1a73e0@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> <414d026e-239d-4309-91b0-af293c6c3ef7@sydex.com> <05ef8f4e-6d0d-a8c9-e632-6bb14c1a73e0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 03/30/2017 01:21 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Well that does not solve the ring, but off loading the SD card is a > good idea, if you have the software time for a new cpu. Most of the > time upper managment drags thier feet, unless they want it > yesterday. Ben. Well, Noel has stated that this will not be the situation in the final stage, but my suggestion was done in the spirit of having a well-behaved low-impedance linkup with the host; not something that resembles an antenna. --Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 30 16:17:33 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:17:33 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> Hello, all, In mid-June, I am planning a trip to Mountain View for two days to visit the Computer History Museum. I plan on flying out of Portland early AM on June 14, checking into hotel, then heading straight to the museum for the day. I will go back to the hotel for the evening, and return to the museum on the 15th, and stay into early afternoon, and then check out of the hotel and head to the airport to return home. I haven't been to CHM before, and am looking forward to spending an extended period of time there. What I'm asking for is help/recommendations in terms of a good hotel to stay at that is relatively close to the museum. I don't want to be in a luxury hotel, nor do I want to be in a dive. I'd also like to be in a place that has a restaurant relatively close by (preferably within walking distance) that I could get some decent meals (breakfast/dinner) while I'm there. Unless this is a topic of general interest to the group, it'd probably be best to reply to me directly rather than post responses to the list. Many thanks, -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 30 16:45:03 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:45:03 +0000 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170329134022.17FBF18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <22B9A00E-202E-4A0B-B54A-A77B257EE656@gmail.com> <414d026e-239d-4309-91b0-af293c6c3ef7@sydex.com> <05ef8f4e-6d0d-a8c9-e632-6bb14c1a73e0@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: I didn't look clearly at the trace but it could also be a reflected un-terminated line and not cross talk. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 1:59:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cross-talk square-wave? On 03/30/2017 01:21 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Well that does not solve the ring, but off loading the SD card is a > good idea, if you have the software time for a new cpu. Most of the > time upper managment drags thier feet, unless they want it > yesterday. Ben. Well, Noel has stated that this will not be the situation in the final stage, but my suggestion was done in the spirit of having a well-behaved low-impedance linkup with the host; not something that resembles an antenna. --Chuck From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Mar 30 17:01:07 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:01:07 -0700 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2017-Mar-30, at 1:13 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Allison > >> FYI this is the same problem designers hit with DRAMS back 40 years ago. > > This didn't ring (pun not intended) a bell for me; can you say a bit more? > >> From: Chuck Guzis > >> I'll offer a suggestion that if your SD card *must* be a significant >> distance from its host > > Like I said, this is a pre-prototype; on the production units, there will be > _no_ cable. The SD socket will be about 1-2" from the FPGA. > >> From: Dwight Kelvey > >> this behavior on my PDP-8/e where a 7474 flip flop chip was bad. The >> input looked great and the output was "half baked" > > There's no chip at all on the driving end of the line (just that 470K > resistor); we see this with the SD card _unplugged_. And we see the exact > same thing on several lines. > > > I'm still not clear, from the discussion, how exactly that nice 'square-wave' > interference is happening - could it be capacitative crosstalk? (I'd have > thought capacitative cross-talk would be inverted - driving a positive voltage > on one 'side' of the 'capacitor' would, I would think, induce an oppposing > voltage on the other. But I'm clearly no EE! :-) I don't have a full enough picture of the circuit and circumstances to provide a definitive suggestion but, some principles: Yes, you can 'pass' a square wave through a capacitor - if you couldn't then all the theory behind capacitor-coupled audio amplifiers would be shot. The condition required to do so is a long resistor - capacitor time constant relative to the period of the (square) wave: RC time constant: t(seconds) = R (ohms) * C (farads) With a high load R, and large enough C, the current in an R-C series circuit is limited to a tiny level, so it takes a long time for the cap to fully charge. For as long as the cap is charging there is current flowing through the R and so you see a voltage drop across the R. If you reduce the R value or the C value, at some point you would see the square wave start to distort (the flat top would start to slope down to the right / later in time), as the capacitor would start to reach full charge within the period of the square wave and the voltage would start to divide between the C and R. No, you won't see the inverse polarity, if you drive a + voltage to one side of the cap it sucks the electrons out of the plate on that side, that attracts electrons into the other 'load-side' plate. Those electrons are coming from (being drawn away from) the rest of the load side circuit, here through the R, so you see a + voltage across the R (current is flowing from GND through R into the C, so the RC-junction side of R is more + than the GND side of the R). Your circuit: It's not clear C-coupling is what's going on here (the wave shape looks pretty sharp for what I understand of the circuit/layout). Notably though, C-coupling would remove any DC bias, but David's screen shot indicates a DC bias on the line. Is this line currently connected to the FPGA, or is it just the wire and R? Perhaps the bias is coming from the FPGA, with C-coupling of the wave via the wire. Or perhaps it's all crosstalk from within the FPGA, 'visible' because of the high load R. If the wire and FPGA pin are connected, separate them (reduce the wire circuit to just the wire and R to GND): see whether the DC bias and/or the square wave disappear. You could play with reducing the load R value to see what happens to the sig level and wave shape. (You've mentioned both 470K and 270K for the R, could make a difference to the analysis). From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Thu Mar 30 17:19:02 2017 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:19:02 -0500 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> On Mar 30, 2017, at 4:17 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > Hello, all, > > In mid-June, I am planning a trip to Mountain View for two days to visit the Computer History Museum. > > I plan on flying out of Portland early AM on June 14, checking into hotel, then heading straight to the museum for the day. > I will go back to the hotel for the evening, and return to the museum on the 15th, and stay into early afternoon, and then check out of the hotel and head to the airport to return home. > > I haven't been to CHM before, and am looking forward to spending an extended period of time there. > > What I'm asking for is help/recommendations in terms of a good hotel to stay at that is relatively close to the museum. I don't want to be in a luxury hotel, nor do I want to be in a dive. > I'd also like to be in a place that has a restaurant relatively close by (preferably within walking distance) that I could get some decent meals (breakfast/dinner) while I'm there. > > Unless this is a topic of general interest to the group, it'd probably be best to reply to me directly rather than post responses to the list. > > Many thanks, > -Rick > -- > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > I'd also be interested in any recommendations, so might as well list-post, it'll be of value to a couple of us. Last I was there was this time of year in 2014 and I really should get back (spent the entire day there and never saw it all). Having IHG points to use, I found a Holiday Inn Express in Belmont that didn't charge an arm and a leg (14 miles from CHM) that was clean and comfortable and I found it an easy walk to several restaurants. One bit of advice, some of the live exhibits, like the 1401 demo, only run on certain days, so check the CHM calendar in advance if there's something you absolutely want to see live. -Cory From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Mar 30 18:25:25 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:25:25 -0500 Subject: Anyone want a Sun T-shirt? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170330232525.GA19928@lonesome.com> If no one who e.g. worked for Sun steps up, I'll take it. mcl From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Mar 30 20:44:58 2017 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:44:58 -0400 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> Message-ID: You want the Hampton Inn. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hampton+Inn+%26+Suites+Mountain+View/@37.3950988,-122.0791475,15.53z/data=!4m8!1m2!2m1!1shotels+near+Mountain+View,+CA!3m4!1s0x0:0xc7d978e934c5a2ca!8m2!3d37.3988499!4d-122.0754889 It is walking distance to the light rail station and Castro street. Mountain View is pretty much a cultural wasteland. If you don't have a car, the only walkable places to eat are off Castro. You could even walk to the CHM - it might even be quicker than car given MTV traffic. The rail from SF airport is surprisingly slow. San Jose may be a better choice. On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 6:19 PM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Mar 30, 2017, at 4:17 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > > Hello, all, > > > > In mid-June, I am planning a trip to Mountain View for two days to visit > the Computer History Museum. > > > > I plan on flying out of Portland early AM on June 14, checking into > hotel, then heading straight to the museum for the day. > > I will go back to the hotel for the evening, and return to the museum on > the 15th, and stay into early afternoon, and then check out of the hotel > and head to the airport to return home. > > > > I haven't been to CHM before, and am looking forward to spending an > extended period of time there. > > > > What I'm asking for is help/recommendations in terms of a good hotel to > stay at that is relatively close to the museum. I don't want to be in a > luxury hotel, nor do I want to be in a dive. > > I'd also like to be in a place that has a restaurant relatively close by > (preferably within walking distance) that I could get some decent meals > (breakfast/dinner) while I'm there. > > > > Unless this is a topic of general interest to the group, it'd probably > be best to reply to me directly rather than post responses to the list. > > > > Many thanks, > > -Rick > > -- > > Rick Bensene > > The Old Calculator Museum > > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > > I'd also be interested in any recommendations, so might as well list-post, > it'll be of value to a couple of us. > > Last I was there was this time of year in 2014 and I really should get > back (spent the entire day there and never saw it all). Having IHG points > to use, I found a Holiday Inn Express in Belmont that didn't charge an arm > and a leg (14 miles from CHM) that was clean and comfortable and I found it > an easy walk to several restaurants. One bit of advice, some of the live > exhibits, like the 1401 demo, only run on certain days, so check the CHM > calendar in advance if there's something you absolutely want to see live. > -Cory > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Mar 30 20:58:41 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:58:41 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> Message-ID: <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> I'd look at hotels on El Camino in Mountain View or Palo Alto, maybe near San Antonio road. There are a whole bunch of smaller hotels along there. Warning: this is California, Silicon Valley and more specifically Google land, so hotels tend to be full and rather expensive for what they are, as you'd expect. Also plenty of restaurants along El Camino, and in Mountain View on Castro street. Booking.com is your friend. The food options in the museum are limited, but just across the street there are more choices ranging from Starbucks to fancy South American, all good. Beware, the Museum is closed Mondays and Tuesdays. Live demos of the IBM 1401 are on Wednesdays 3 pm and Saturdays 11 am. The PDP-1 is demoed more rarely, on some Saturdays in the afternoon. More details here: http://www.computerhistory.org/hours/ Send me an email when you are around. I usually am at the museum on Wednesdays working on the 1401 with the restoration team before the official demo. I'd love to give you a special tour of the exhibit (and discuss old computers and calculators!). Marc > On Mar 30, 2017, at 3:19 PM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Mar 30, 2017, at 4:17 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hello, all, >> >> In mid-June, I am planning a trip to Mountain View for two days to visit the Computer History Museum. >> >> I plan on flying out of Portland early AM on June 14, checking into hotel, then heading straight to the museum for the day. >> I will go back to the hotel for the evening, and return to the museum on the 15th, and stay into early afternoon, and then check out of the hotel and head to the airport to return home. >> >> I haven't been to CHM before, and am looking forward to spending an extended period of time there. >> >> What I'm asking for is help/recommendations in terms of a good hotel to stay at that is relatively close to the museum. I don't want to be in a luxury hotel, nor do I want to be in a dive. >> I'd also like to be in a place that has a restaurant relatively close by (preferably within walking distance) that I could get some decent meals (breakfast/dinner) while I'm there. >> >> Unless this is a topic of general interest to the group, it'd probably be best to reply to me directly rather than post responses to the list. >> >> Many thanks, >> -Rick >> -- >> Rick Bensene >> The Old Calculator Museum >> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > I'd also be interested in any recommendations, so might as well list-post, it'll be of value to a couple of us. > > Last I was there was this time of year in 2014 and I really should get back (spent the entire day there and never saw it all). Having IHG points to use, I found a Holiday Inn Express in Belmont that didn't charge an arm and a leg (14 miles from CHM) that was clean and comfortable and I found it an easy walk to several restaurants. One bit of advice, some of the live exhibits, like the 1401 demo, only run on certain days, so check the CHM calendar in advance if there's something you absolutely want to see live. -Cory > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Mar 30 22:04:43 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:04:43 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> On 3/30/2017 6:58 PM, CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote: > Beware, the Museum is closed Mondays and Tuesdays. Live demos of the IBM 1401 are on Wednesdays 3 pm and Saturdays 11 am. The PDP-1 is demoed more rarely, on some Saturdays in the afternoon. More details here: > http://www.computerhistory.org/hours/ Marc, I'll also look you up if we are there mid week. As to recommendations, I like the Country Inn & Suites by Carlson in Sunnyvale, which is at Ca 237 and Caribbean. If you run around by the bay is Weird Stuff, and it is about 2 or so miles from the CHM. At 237 Caribbean becomes Lawrence which is a handy road since you can easily get to Halted for another stop. Their new spot is quite a bit better stocked than the original location. I'm not sure Fry's is worth a stop, unless you don't have one and want to see what they have. Country Inn 1300 Chesapeake Terrace, Sunnyvale, CA 94089 Charles might chime in about the place he stayed while here for VCF if he sees this, that hotel seemed good, though I don't recall where it was. I really like Tomatina's for Italian, though it's a drive. We stumbled across it and were highly impressed with the food. 3127 Mission College Blvd, Santa Clara, CA 95054 I'm in Southern, Ca, and travel up there a time or two a year, FWIW. Thanks Jim From dab at froghouse.org Thu Mar 30 22:07:39 2017 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:07:39 -0400 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1146c1fa-d352-c9dd-01be-7017d52d6eec@froghouse.org> > It's not clear C-coupling is what's going on here (the wave shape looks pretty sharp for what I understand of the circuit/layout). > Notably though, C-coupling would remove any DC bias, but David's screen shot indicates a DC bias on the line. > > Is this line currently connected to the FPGA, or is it just the wire and R? > Perhaps the bias is coming from the FPGA, with C-coupling of the wave via the wire. > Or perhaps it's all crosstalk from within the FPGA, 'visible' because of the high load R. Yes, the wire is connected to the FPGA at one end. That FPGA I/O pin is *supposed* to be configured for high-Z but that's the only place I can see the DC bias coming from. > If the wire and FPGA pin are connected, separate them (reduce the wire circuit to just the wire and R to GND): see whether the DC bias and/or the square wave disappear. Because of the way it's built, I'm not seeing a reasonable way to disconnected the FPGA while leaving the rest intact. However, I did move the signal to another wire in the ribbon cable and the problem is basically gone. This lets me move on with other issues but am still a bit puzzled with this one. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 30 22:15:28 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:15:28 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> On 03/30/2017 08:04 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > As to recommendations, I like the Country Inn & Suites by Carlson in > Sunnyvale, which is at Ca 237 and Caribbean. If you run around by > the bay is Weird Stuff, and it is about 2 or so miles from the CHM. > At 237 Caribbean becomes Lawrence which is a handy road since you can > easily get to Halted for another stop. Their new spot is quite a bit > better stocked than the original location. Bonus points for those who remember their original original location. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 30 22:31:58 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:31:58 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55ab13c3-d26e-3be8-7c9c-0173712dd307@bitsavers.org> On 3/30/17 8:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 03/30/2017 08:04 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> As to recommendations, I like the Country Inn & Suites by Carlson in >> Sunnyvale, which is at Ca 237 and Caribbean. If you run around by >> the bay is Weird Stuff, and it is about 2 or so miles from the CHM. >> At 237 Caribbean becomes Lawrence which is a handy road since you can >> easily get to Halted for another stop. Their new spot is quite a bit >> better stocked than the original location. > > > Bonus points for those who remember their original original location. > > --Chuck > Phelen Ave in San Jose, which was before the larger place on Sycamore in Milpitas. Richard Anderson had several places after he, Mac McDougal and the Schutz's started WSW. The Weird Stuff name and logo came from Richard's brother, who was in the advertising business. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Mar 30 22:30:16 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:30:16 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3/30/2017 8:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Bonus points for those who remember their original original location. > > --Chuck > Halted? We drove by there, could get address off google. Weird Stuff used to be across from the original Frys, then Frys move across the street with the Giant IC building. Again, can drive there, would have to do it on google to get the address. Extra points if you remember the IC supplies in the original Frys next to the M&M's and cans of Pringles. Before the brothers decided if they were an electronics store or a stereo store and had fights. Across from the side of the road that original Frys was on was a TOGO's that filled the parking lot and 2 or three nicely stocked junk stores, which changed frequently. The guys who did the Hard Disk drive guide book had their original store in there and lots of cheap and hard to find product. thanks Jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Mar 30 22:32:57 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:32:57 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3632ae41-65f9-d61c-7859-bc5b56abdc92@jwsss.com> On 3/30/2017 8:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Bonus points for those who remember their original original location. > > --Chuck > General area of lots of good junking back in the day was here. I think Halted is the last one of the originals to leave. They moved to a place on Ryder and that was where they were for a very long time. of course they are up off Corvin now. https://goo.gl/maps/EYAbqVjoC3B2 Thanks jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 30 22:35:31 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> Bonus points for those who remember their original original location. > Across from the side of the road that original Frys was on was a TOGO's that > filled the parking lot and 2 or three nicely stocked junk stores, which > changed frequently. The guys who did the Hard Disk drive guide book had > their original store in there and lots of cheap and hard to find product. "Computer Literacy" From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 30 22:39:08 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:39:08 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3/30/17 8:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >The guys who did the Hard Disk drive guide book had their >> original store in there Corporate Systems Center their main office was on Maude From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 30 22:42:26 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > Across from the side of the road that original Frys was on was a TOGO's that > filled the parking lot and 2 or three nicely stocked junk stores, which > changed frequently. The guys who did the Hard Disk drive guide book had > their original store in there and lots of cheap and hard to find product. Corporate Systems Center Martin Bodo? "The Hard Drive Bible" From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 30 22:50:09 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:50:09 -0500 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <1146c1fa-d352-c9dd-01be-7017d52d6eec@froghouse.org> References: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1146c1fa-d352-c9dd-01be-7017d52d6eec@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <58DDD1F1.2020701@pico-systems.com> On 03/30/2017 10:07 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: >> It's not clear C-coupling is what's going on here (the wave shape looks pretty sharp for what I understand of the circuit/layout). >> Notably though, C-coupling would remove any DC bias, but David's screen shot indicates a DC bias on the line. >> >> Is this line currently connected to the FPGA, or is it just the wire and R? >> Perhaps the bias is coming from the FPGA, with C-coupling of the wave via the wire. >> Or perhaps it's all crosstalk from within the FPGA, 'visible' because of the high load R. > Yes, the wire is connected to the FPGA at one end. That FPGA I/O pin is > *supposed* to be configured for high-Z but that's the only place I can > see the DC bias coming from. Don't trust ANYTHING! Recent Xilinx FPGAs have permanent "weak keepers" on all pins, they can not be turned off. What this is is a non-inverting receiver on the pad, that is driving back to the pad with about a 50K Ohm resistor. Plays hob with analog stuff like crystal oscillators. The weak keeper would PERFECTLY explain your square wave! When it gets a narrow pulse to high, it holds the line high. When it gets a narrow pulse to low, it will switch to holding the line low. So, if you are using a Xilinx FPGA of recent vintage, or some of their CPLDs, they will do exactly this. Jon From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 30 22:56:17 2017 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:56:17 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3/30/2017 8:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> Across from the side of the road that original Frys was on was a >> TOGO's that filled the parking lot and 2 or three nicely stocked junk >> stores, which changed frequently. The guys who did the Hard Disk >> drive guide book had their original store in there and lots of cheap >> and hard to find product. > > Corporate Systems Center Martin Bodo? "The Hard Drive Bible" > > > Corporate Systems Center, and Martin, still exist, as Digital Loggers, on Walsh Av. I still work there, 20+ years... Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 30 23:07:07 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:07:07 +0100 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 9:13 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I'm still not clear, from the discussion, how exactly that nice 'square-wave' > interference is happening - could it be capacitative crosstalk? (I'd have > thought capacitative cross-talk would be inverted - driving a positive voltage > on one 'side' of the 'capacitor' would, I would think, induce an oppposing > voltage on the other. But I'm clearly no EE! :-) The fundamental rule is 'You can't change the voltage across a capacitor instantly'. There is a related one 'You can't change the current through an inductor instantly'. It (of course) doesn't matter if said capacitor or inductor is an actual component or 'strays'. So instantaneously, a capacitor acts like a constant voltage drop. If the charge on the capacitor doesn't change much (fast signals, high resistors so not much current flow), the 2 sides of the capacitor will be much the same signal (possibly with a constant voltage offset). -tony From RichA at livingcomputers.org Thu Mar 30 18:05:21 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:05:21 +0000 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <64a17badfc664dd8a90d6cde903e704a@livingcomputers.org> From: Rick Bensene Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 2:18 PM > What I'm asking for is help/recommendations in terms of a good hotel to > stay at that is relatively close to the museum. I don't want to be in a > luxury hotel, nor do I want to be in a dive. I'd also like to be in a > place that has a restaurant relatively close by (preferably within > walking distance) that I could get some decent meals (breakfast/dinner) > while I'm there. There aren't a lot of hotels in Mountain View, and what there are are not easily within walking distance of good food (In 'n' Out does not qualify). Most are on El Camino Real. Looking at one which I have used (Hilton Garden Inn) for relative pricing, it's not available for your dates and all the others I would point you towards are in the $250-$400/night range. This is the heart of Silicon Valley, after all, and lots of business travel ends up in these places. You're at the height of the tourist season, too. The place I stayed last weekend in Milpitas for $130/night is $260 for your travel dates. Sorry for not being terribly helpful. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Mar 30 18:41:25 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:41:25 -0400 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 03/30/2017 06:01 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2017-Mar-30, at 1:13 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> From: Allison >>> FYI this is the same problem designers hit with DRAMS back 40 years ago. >> This didn't ring (pun not intended) a bell for me; can you say a bit more? >> Early Dram memories were fickle to design and many poor designs got out with notable consequences. Examples wer common in the S100 realm and others too. The MITS 88-4K was replaced with 88-S4K for that reason it was that bad and that was using the non-multiplexed 22 pin 4K parts. The later 16K multiplexed 16 pin parts 4116 were worse Tandy TRS80 EI version 1(no buffer) and 2(buffered cable) leading to the later third try a complete redesign. The problem was a high capacitance load of many NMos Drams and the address and data drive. The fix was not trivial. A fairly hard source like a 74S157 (treat as similar in this case to a voltage source) provides a fast stepped input to a signal line and if the line were terminated in its characteristic impedance it would simply transfer the signal and preserve waveform. But an array of 16 DRAM for one address line with board and input capacitance looks like a roughly 160pf capacitor to ground. Your S157 switches and a step waveform goes from ground to +2.7V (lets say) and the instantaneous current is rather large with an exponential decay. Since the line does not see a termination like its characteristic impedance or anything acceptable much of the energy in the pulse is reflected back and you see ringing or waveform distortion (depends on length of the line). So the then simple fix was series resistance by experimental (maybe empirical too) testing for the best waveform and timing compromise. Usually this lead to both re-layout of the board as when you get 8 or 9 lines doing this the ground gridding starts showing noise too. In the end its all transmission lines that have poor termination. What people often forget at DC and very low frequencies the MOS/CMOS input are essentially open circuits. At high frequencies (pulse rates) its a capacitor which is an energy storage device. Changing that voltage across the cap takes energy and time and is not a friendly load by any cable/transmission line. So putting a SD or even a CF at the end of a ribbon or spectra cable without adequate grounds (every other wire or a backplane ground) means the field around those wires will couple and be the fields around its neighbours and make itself known in the most offensive ways. For those that have forgotten.... those that forget history will relive it. *Vonada's Engineering Maxims* are a group of pithy observations about computer engineering compiled by Don Vonada, an engineer at DEC , and reproduced in: * C. Gordon Bell, J. Craig Mudge, John. E. McNamara, "/Computer Engineering/" They are: 1. There is no such thing as ground. 2. Digital circuits are made from analog parts. 3. Prototype designs always work. 4. Asserted timing conditions are designed first; unasserted timing conditions are found later. 5. When all but one wire in a group of wires switch, that one will switch also. 6. When all but one gate in a module switches, that one will switch also. 7. Every little pico farad has a nano henry all its own. 8. Capacitors convert voltage glitches to current glitches (conservation of energy). 9. Interconnecting wires are probably transmission lines. 10. Synchronizing circuits may take forever to make a decision. 11. Worse-case tolerances never add - but when they do, they are found in the best customer's machine. 12. Diagnostics are highly efficient in finding solved problems. 13. Processing systems are only partially tested since it is impractical to simulate all possible machine states. 14. Murphy's Laws apply 95 percent of the time. The other 5 percent of the time is a coffee break. Allison >>> From: Chuck Guzis >>> I'll offer a suggestion that if your SD card *must* be a significant >>> distance from its host >> Like I said, this is a pre-prototype; on the production units, there will be >> _no_ cable. The SD socket will be about 1-2" from the FPGA. >> >>> From: Dwight Kelvey >>> this behavior on my PDP-8/e where a 7474 flip flop chip was bad. The >>> input looked great and the output was "half baked" >> There's no chip at all on the driving end of the line (just that 470K >> resistor); we see this with the SD card _unplugged_. And we see the exact >> same thing on several lines. >> >> >> I'm still not clear, from the discussion, how exactly that nice 'square-wave' >> interference is happening - could it be capacitative crosstalk? (I'd have >> thought capacitative cross-talk would be inverted - driving a positive voltage >> on one 'side' of the 'capacitor' would, I would think, induce an oppposing >> voltage on the other. But I'm clearly no EE! :-) > I don't have a full enough picture of the circuit and circumstances to provide a definitive suggestion but, some principles: > > Yes, you can 'pass' a square wave through a capacitor - if you couldn't then all the theory behind capacitor-coupled audio amplifiers would be shot. > The condition required to do so is a long resistor - capacitor time constant relative to the period of the (square) wave: > RC time constant: t(seconds) = R (ohms) * C (farads) > > With a high load R, and large enough C, the current in an R-C series circuit is limited to a tiny level, so it takes a long time for the cap to fully charge. > For as long as the cap is charging there is current flowing through the R and so you see a voltage drop across the R. > If you reduce the R value or the C value, at some point you would see the square wave start to distort (the flat top would start to slope down to the right / later in time), > as the capacitor would start to reach full charge within the period of the square wave and the voltage would start to divide between the C and R. > > No, you won't see the inverse polarity, if you drive a + voltage to one side of the cap it sucks the electrons out of the plate on that side, that attracts electrons into the other 'load-side' plate. Those electrons are coming from (being drawn away from) the rest of the load side circuit, here through the R, so you see a + voltage across the R (current is flowing from GND through R into the C, so the RC-junction side of R is more + than the GND side of the R). > > Your circuit: > > It's not clear C-coupling is what's going on here (the wave shape looks pretty sharp for what I understand of the circuit/layout). > Notably though, C-coupling would remove any DC bias, but David's screen shot indicates a DC bias on the line. > > Is this line currently connected to the FPGA, or is it just the wire and R? > Perhaps the bias is coming from the FPGA, with C-coupling of the wave via the wire. > Or perhaps it's all crosstalk from within the FPGA, 'visible' because of the high load R. > > If the wire and FPGA pin are connected, separate them (reduce the wire circuit to just the wire and R to GND): see whether the DC bias and/or the square wave disappear. > > You could play with reducing the load R value to see what happens to the sig level and wave shape. > > (You've mentioned both 470K and 270K for the R, could make a difference to the analysis). > > From george at rachors.com Thu Mar 30 23:18:35 2017 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:18:35 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <93B60F9E-B49E-4466-8F38-7E41F897A359@rachors.com> I have that book! George Rachor > On Mar 30, 2017, at 8:56 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/30/2017 8:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >>> Across from the side of the road that original Frys was on was a TOGO's that filled the parking lot and 2 or three nicely stocked junk stores, which changed frequently. The guys who did the Hard Disk drive guide book had their original store in there and lots of cheap and hard to find product. >> >> Corporate Systems Center Martin Bodo? "The Hard Drive Bible" >> >> >> > Corporate Systems Center, and Martin, still exist, as Digital Loggers, on Walsh Av. I still work there, 20+ years... > > Bob > > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 30 23:29:04 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:29:04 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <55ab13c3-d26e-3be8-7c9c-0173712dd307@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> <55ab13c3-d26e-3be8-7c9c-0173712dd307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 03/30/2017 08:31 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Phelen Ave in San Jose, which was before the larger place on Sycamore > in Milpitas. In the late 70s, on Evelyn in Sunnyvale, near Wolfe, I believe. I could check my old records. I recall when John Fry opened his store, the big seller was Canfield's Diet Chocolate Fudge Soda. I thought it was dreadful, but people bought it by the caselot. Fry's had a lot of Everex PC boards, much of which was probably returns. And you could buy a VME system there also. I still have various connectors and whatnot in the little poly bags with the red and white Fry's labels on them. I bought my turntable and soldering iron tips at Sunnyvale Electronics. Points for those who can tell me where that was. I suspect that if I returned for a visit after nearly 30 years, I'd get lost. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 30 23:38:48 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> <55ab13c3-d26e-3be8-7c9c-0173712dd307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I recall when John Fry opened his store, the big seller was Canfield's > Diet Chocolate Fudge Soda. I thought it was dreadful, but people > bought it by the caselot. Fry's had a lot of Everex PC boards, much of > which was probably returns. And you could buy a VME system there also. > > I still have various connectors and whatnot in the little poly bags with > the red and white Fry's labels on them. > > I bought my turntable and soldering iron tips at Sunnyvale Electronics. > Points for those who can tell me where that was. > > I suspect that if I returned for a visit after nearly 30 years, I'd get > lost. . . . and it would be very depressing. It's been more than three decades since the staffing at Fry's went bad. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 31 00:00:10 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:00:10 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <753d7149-ba7c-b973-56b0-bb96c43a7502@sydex.com> On 03/30/2017 08:56 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > Corporate Systems Center, and Martin, still exist, as Digital > Loggers, on Walsh Av. I still work there, 20+ years... I still have the manuals and software for his Fastcache and Fastecache 32 SCSI controllers. Got rid of the cards themselves a long time ago when better cards became available and 30-pin SIMMs were no longer popular. I think I still have a system around here with an ESDI drive that I got from him. There was another lesser-known outfit (the name escapes me) in Sunnyvale that offered cut-rate deals on big hard drives. And of course, the business retail outfits, Inmac with its trademark blue cables. TI had a retail store in Stanford Shopping Center. And if you couldn't find a part you needed, a few beers at the Walker's Wagon Wheel in Mountain View after work would turn up someone who could filch what you needed from their stock at work. Remember Haltek in Mountain View? (wasn't it at the dead end of Linda Vista? I bought my Tek 465 there.) What was the name of the warehouse operation in Palo Alto that just had stacks of stuff with no particular organization? I bought a lot of cable there. I remember the smell of tomato sauce that pervaded Sunnyvale in the summertime and all of the seasonal cannery workers. The cherry blossoms that would make piles in the streets come springtime. Santa Clara may have had Italian prunes, but Sunnyvale had cherry orchards. Remember Chez Yvonne in Mountain View on El Camino with its geriatric waitresses that would call you Shveetie and Yvonne herself holding court? When a bunch of us got Durango started on 10101 Bubb Road in Cupertino, there were canneries in back, just across the railroad tracks in Monte Vista. Some kids had the building space across the road trying to get a little outfit called "Apple" started. Wonder how that worked out... After being gone for almost 30 years, I'd probably get lost now. And, as Thomas Wolfe said, "You can't go home again." --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 31 00:14:03 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:14:03 -0700 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 03/30/2017 09:07 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > The fundamental rule is 'You can't change the voltage across a > capacitor instantly'. There is a related one 'You can't change the > current through an inductor instantly'. It (of course) doesn't matter > if said capacitor or inductor is an actual component or 'strays'. Funny that driving DRAMs would be mentioned today. Yesterday, I was going through some of my old tubes of ICs and ran across some AM2966 DIPs. I didn't remember why I'd gotten them or even what they were. A glance at a datasheet refreshed my memory--basically they're LS244 octal drivers intended for MOS memory address lines. They feature 25 ohm resistors in the collectors of both of the totem-pole output transistors. Each output is spec-ed to sink a minimum of 50 ma. It takes some muscle to drive a capacitive load. --Chuck From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Mar 31 01:01:08 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 01:01:08 -0500 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20170331060108.GA20852@lonesome.com> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 07:41:25PM -0400, allison via cctalk wrote: > *Vonada's Engineering Maxims* are a group of pithy observations about > computer engineering There's too much hard-learned truth in all that, to be funny. mcl From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 31 02:27:38 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <753d7149-ba7c-b973-56b0-bb96c43a7502@sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis via cctalk at "Mar 30, 17 10:00:10 pm" Message-ID: <201703310727.v2V7RcWR5963996@floodgap.com> > Remember Haltek in Mountain View? (wasn't it at the dead end of Linda > Vista? I bought my Tek 465 there.) You don't mean Halted Electronics, do you? That should still be around. I was passing through Sunnyvale on my way back south and picked up some useful doodads at Weird Stuff, though it took an hour to find them. I'm not sure if that was a good use of my time. ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A service of the Department of the Redundancy Department service. ---------- From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Mar 31 02:33:21 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 01:33:21 -0600 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: <64a17badfc664dd8a90d6cde903e704a@livingcomputers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <64a17badfc664dd8a90d6cde903e704a@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > and what there are are not > easily within walking distance of good food (In 'n' Out does not qualify). > Them's fightin' words! From dave at 661.org Fri Mar 31 06:32:08 2017 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:32:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips Message-ID: I'm down to the last few P112 boards for sale and am pondering another run of them because demand is steady. One of the biggest challenges for the last run was getting the QFP-packaged 100-pin chips[1] in a state such that the pick-and-place robot wouldn't throw a fit about slight differences in lead position. The stuffing house insisted that I send them new chips. Pulls, though they looked perfectly okay to me, were not acceptable. Does anyone here know anything about pick-and-place robots using pulled 100-pin QFPs, particularly a stuffing house that can work with such chips and not screw up? [1] The now-obsolete super-io chips -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dab at froghouse.org Fri Mar 31 07:10:57 2017 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:10:57 -0400 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: <58DDD1F1.2020701@pico-systems.com> References: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1146c1fa-d352-c9dd-01be-7017d52d6eec@froghouse.org> <58DDD1F1.2020701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Don't trust ANYTHING! Recent Xilinx FPGAs have permanent "weak > keepers" on all pins, they can not be turned off. > What this is is a non-inverting receiver on the pad, that is driving > back to the pad with about a 50K Ohm resistor. > Plays hob with analog stuff like crystal oscillators. The weak keeper > would PERFECTLY explain your square wave! > When it gets a narrow pulse to high, it holds the line high. When it > gets a narrow pulse to low, it will switch to holding the line low. > So, if you are using a Xilinx FPGA of recent vintage, or some of their > CPLDs, they will do exactly this. Looks like we have an explanation then. We're using an XC7A75T-CSG324, a Xilinx Artix 7 series FPGA. Thank you very much. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 31 11:24:07 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:24:07 -0500 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> On 03/31/2017 06:32 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > I'm down to the last few P112 boards for sale and am > pondering another run of them because demand is steady. > One of the biggest challenges for the last run was getting > the QFP-packaged 100-pin chips[1] in a state such that the > pick-and-place robot wouldn't throw a fit about slight > differences in lead position. The stuffing house insisted > that I send them new chips. Pulls, though they looked > perfectly okay to me, were not acceptable. Does anyone > here know anything about pick-and-place robots using > pulled 100-pin QFPs, particularly a stuffing house that > can work with such chips and not screw up? > > [1] The now-obsolete super-io chips > > There USED to be outfits that recycled chips. They had some system to clean and replate/reflow the leads and align them. The good ones could counterfeit them for new, you absolutely could NOT TELL they were not new from the factory. I have no idea if any of these outfits still exist. Probably they do, in China! My P&P would have no problem, it uses mechanical alignment jaws. But, modern P&P use vision to locate the solder area of the leads and then position using those coordinates. So, anything that changes the reflection of the leads or causes slight misalignment would cause an alignment failure. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 31 11:26:16 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:26:16 -0500 Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? In-Reply-To: References: <20170330201313.224BD18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1146c1fa-d352-c9dd-01be-7017d52d6eec@froghouse.org> <58DDD1F1.2020701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <58DE8328.7000401@pico-systems.com> On 03/31/2017 07:10 AM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: >> Don't trust ANYTHING! Recent Xilinx FPGAs have permanent "weak >> keepers" on all pins, they can not be turned off. >> What this is is a non-inverting receiver on the pad, that is driving >> back to the pad with about a 50K Ohm resistor. >> Plays hob with analog stuff like crystal oscillators. The weak keeper >> would PERFECTLY explain your square wave! >> When it gets a narrow pulse to high, it holds the line high. When it >> gets a narrow pulse to low, it will switch to holding the line low. >> So, if you are using a Xilinx FPGA of recent vintage, or some of their >> CPLDs, they will do exactly this. > Looks like we have an explanation then. We're using an XC7A75T-CSG324, > a Xilinx Artix 7 series FPGA. Thank you very much. > > Yup, that definitely has such a feature. I think there are some Xilinx knowledgebase articles on the specifics of certain family's pad options and how to deal with them in pseudo-analog functions like crystal oscillators, switch debounce, etc. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 31 13:01:31 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cross-talk square-wave? Message-ID: <20170331180131.A7FE418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > I don't have a full enough picture of the circuit and circumstances to > provide a definitive suggestion but, some principles: > ... > It's not clear C-coupling is what's going on here (the wave shape looks > pretty sharp for what I understand of the circuit/layout). Thanks for taking the time for that detailed message. I suspect, however, that Jon Elson has nailed it (thanks Jon :-); if that's what's happening, it explains why we couldn't understand what the devil was going on! > (You've mentioned both 470K and 270K for the R, could make a difference > to the analysis). Yeah, that was just a typo; going from memory. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 31 13:17:58 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:17:58 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> <55ab13c3-d26e-3be8-7c9c-0173712dd307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 3/30/17 9:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > In the late 70s, on Evelyn in Sunnyvale, near Wolfe, I believe. That would be the original Halted location, Evelyn and Wolfe Halted moved to roughly laurence and central, then moved to 3051 Corvin last year. The previous building was demolished last week. The entire block is gone all the way from central to keifer, including the building that was ACE Electronics on Keifer. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 31 13:58:13 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTB: DEC VR241 or HP 6000 670H (or 670XP) Message-ID: <201703311858.v2VIwDBj10027046@floodgap.com> I'm looking for two items: A VR241 to use with my DEC 380 as a colour head (even better if you have the cable and a spare LK201, since I'm down to my last working keyboard). The VR201 isn't cutting it anymore and I don't think I can use my VR260 with this. An HP 6000 670H hard disk (the big one for the 300 series). XP even better, but I've done just fine with an H. Please include what price you're asking. Thanks! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff. -- Frank Zappa ---- From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Mar 31 14:44:28 2017 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:44:28 -0700 Subject: OT: PCI Ethernet or USB 2.0 ethernet? Message-ID: Friends, I have an instrument that has an intel motherboard with 400 MHz FSB PCI (not PCI-e). It has a 100 mbps Ethernet card and it would be very useful to get faster networking. The chassis of this instrument is such that I cannot fit a traditional PCI 1GB Ethernet card (I've tried). So I will have to go wifi (which I can make fit because I can remotely locate the wifi antenna). I have 802.11ac both 2.4 and 5 GHz available. While it certainly won't get as good a throughput as a dedicate GB Ethernet card, this is my only option. The question is, whether you think I would be better off using PCI wifi card or a USB-wifi adapter. I should mention the USB on this instrument is USB 2.0, the spec for which claims up to 480 Mbps. Anyone have an opinion which might get me better results? The wifi infrastructure is one constant in this scenario, just looking to see pci- or usb-based wifi card. Since this is wildly off topic, please respond to me directly so as not to bother everyone else :) W2hx at w2hx.com Thanks Eugene From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 31 16:12:26 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:12:26 -0700 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A811@mail.bensene.com> <21FB8247-1DE4-4323-A51A-9592800B4564@gmail.com> <808E3AF1-FAEC-438D-A87B-660BF3CCD2E1@gmail.com> <0f4c21b5-4aa9-19c7-071f-e09aac62c39c@jwsss.com> <24284d67-09cf-7bd1-b3fd-b7661cc84b7a@sydex.com> <55ab13c3-d26e-3be8-7c9c-0173712dd307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <29f10b18-a8de-3080-f5e1-c47c1902ac87@sydex.com> On 03/31/2017 11:17 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/30/17 9:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> In the late 70s, on Evelyn in Sunnyvale, near Wolfe, I believe. > > That would be the original Halted location, Evelyn and Wolfe > > Halted moved to roughly laurence and central, then moved to 3051 > Corvin last year. > > The previous building was demolished last week. The entire block is > gone all the way from central to keifer, including the building that > was ACE Electronics on Keifer. That's a shame. One thing that Sunnyvale and Santa Clara offered was lots of inexpensive "incubator" space. I think that soaring prices on industrial rental space was what eventually forced Dan (Haltek) out of his digs on Linda Vista in MV. He had another outfit in Santa Clara, "Redwood Electronics", but that seems to have turned to dust at about the same time. Things come and go, though. Where Sun was is now Google. Tear-downs are the thing in older residential Mountain View and Palo Alto. I remember when nobody but hippies and horse people lived in Los Altos Hills on gravel-paved roads. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 31 18:56:48 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:56:48 -0500 Subject: Intellivision reset switch Message-ID: Can anyone who's been inside an Intellivision confirm that there's supposed to be a little foam disc beneath the reset switch plate? I picked a system with a box of cartridges up earlier, half expecting the machine to be dead (I was figuring it was going to be a blob of easily-dead-after-so-many-years custom logic inside, but it's more like a "real computer" in nature). It *was* dead, but the [initial, at least] issue seems to be that the reset switch consists of a metal plate which is supposed to make contact with the PCB when pressed - and presumably is held away from the PCB by something when at rest. Except that there's no "something" in this machine - with the machine the right way up, the plate is free to contact the PCB, holding it in permanent reset. I'm guessing it was a blob of foam, which has deteriorated, but maybe it was a metal spring, or a piece of u-shaped plastic etc. cheers Jules From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 31 21:17:42 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:17:42 -0500 Subject: Trip to CHM - Hotel/Restaurant Advice Message-ID: I thought the Vintage Computer festival west link might have recommended hotels but I couldn't find anything for you. I did a similar trip but needed to be quite a few hours south for my actual destination. I didn't find a very cheap hotel either, and the under $100 one I did find near long Beach was quite underwhelming. The type my wife wouldn't have let us stay at. What I did find more useful was a super small rental car for $98 that did give me much more freedom to get around a few sites (and Weird Stuff). ?It was highly recommended not to sleep in the car though so best luck. I explored airbnb but it seems to mirror closely to hotel prices and a surprisingly large amount want a 2 day stay. But CHM is definitely a fun trip. I have a quite large collection for home computing so I wasn't sure how long I'd stay occupied but between the demos and tours and just perusing I definitely could have enjoyed more than the afternoon I spent. Best recommendations were ubering or rental car then get a hotel in your price range but don't worry as much about location. Or get one near the train. From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Mar 31 21:26:48 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:26:48 -0500 Subject: Apple 1, Commodore 65, Enigma Machine, Inventor of C++ Message-ID: -------- Original message --------From: Christian Corti via cctalk Date: 3/29/17 3:29 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Evan Koblentz >On Tue, 28 Mar 2017, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> "What do an Apple 1, Commodore 65, >>Enigma Machine, and the inventor of C++ >> all have in common?" >They're just overestimated pieces of junk ;-)?>(and C++, not its inventor) >[duck...] Said to most of us about our hobby and collections? We're supposed to be challenging that battle, mate. Not feeding it ;-) From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Mar 31 12:51:34 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:51:34 -0400 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> On 03/31/2017 06:32 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> >> I'm down to the last few P112 boards for sale and am pondering >> another run of them because demand is steady. One of the biggest >> challenges for the last run was getting the QFP-packaged 100-pin >> chips[1] in a state such that the pick-and-place robot wouldn't throw >> a fit about slight differences in lead position. The stuffing house >> insisted that I send them new chips. Pulls, though they looked >> perfectly okay to me, were not acceptable. Does anyone here know >> anything about pick-and-place robots using pulled 100-pin QFPs, >> particularly a stuffing house that can work with such chips and not >> screw up? >> >> [1] The now-obsolete super-io chips >> >> > Is this something that an experienced hand can manually do? Of all the CP/M platforms its one of the few I haven't done. But it keeps popping after I've long figured its long gone. I'm not afraid of SMT as I proto using 0603 and 0402 parts at uhf/microwave freehand. Baving delt with layouts for BGA and large pinout devices usually getting fiducial marks on the board so it can locate and position without optical works. One time the board designer messed up and we had to use existing fixed points for that. PITA but it worked. After that I got into the board layout bit and DFM. Allison From brain at jbrain.com Fri Mar 31 12:55:01 2017 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:55:01 -0500 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 3/31/2017 12:51 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > Is this something that an experienced hand can manually do? I can verify that it is indeed possible. I lay down xc95144xl-tq100s all the time with my iron and some flux and some wick, and I get nearly 100% rates. My eyes are not what they used to be either, so a magnifying glass and a light touch makes all the difference. I am sure others on list are even better than I, but I recommend flux, place the IC, and then carefully set the board aside to dry. The flux will dry, turn into "glue" (as the alcohol evaporates), and that helps with soldering. Jim From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 31 13:00:51 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:00:51 -0400 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> > On Mar 31, 2017, at 1:51 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > > On 03/31/2017 06:32 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I'm down to the last few P112 boards for sale and am pondering >>> another run of them because demand is steady. One of the biggest >>> challenges for the last run was getting the QFP-packaged 100-pin >>> chips[1] in a state such that the pick-and-place robot wouldn't throw >>> a fit about slight differences in lead position. The stuffing house >>> insisted that I send them new chips. Pulls, though they looked >>> perfectly okay to me, were not acceptable. Does anyone here know >>> anything about pick-and-place robots using pulled 100-pin QFPs, >>> particularly a stuffing house that can work with such chips and not >>> screw up? >>> >>> [1] The now-obsolete super-io chips >>> >>> >> > Is this something that an experienced hand can manually do? Yes, definitely. 100 lead PQFP is perfectly doable if the lead pitch is not insanely small. It takes a good fine tip soldering iron (mine is a Weller with a PTS tip), fine solder (preferably real, i.e., 63/37 non-PC solder). Liquid flux is a big help, as is a magnifier and bright light or modest magnification microscope. If you have to do a couple of dozen boards this gets very tedious, but for 5-ish it isn't a big deal. paul From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Mar 31 18:28:28 2017 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:28:28 -0400 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 03/31/2017 02:00 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Mar 31, 2017, at 1:51 PM, allison via cctech wrote: >> >> On 03/31/2017 06:32 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >>>> I'm down to the last few P112 boards for sale and am pondering >>>> another run of them because demand is steady. One of the biggest >>>> challenges for the last run was getting the QFP-packaged 100-pin >>>> chips[1] in a state such that the pick-and-place robot wouldn't throw >>>> a fit about slight differences in lead position. The stuffing house >>>> insisted that I send them new chips. Pulls, though they looked >>>> perfectly okay to me, were not acceptable. Does anyone here know >>>> anything about pick-and-place robots using pulled 100-pin QFPs, >>>> particularly a stuffing house that can work with such chips and not >>>> screw up? >>>> >>>> [1] The now-obsolete super-io chips >>>> >>>> >> Is this something that an experienced hand can manually do? > Yes, definitely. 100 lead PQFP is perfectly doable if the lead pitch is not insanely small. It takes a good fine tip soldering iron (mine is a Weller with a PTS tip), fine solder (preferably real, i.e., 63/37 non-PC solder). Liquid flux is a big help, as is a magnifier and bright light or modest magnification microscope. > > If you have to do a couple of dozen boards this gets very tedious, but for 5-ish it isn't a big deal. > > paul > So happens I'm fully equipped on all counts. Including the PTS tip. However my preference for years has been the PTA7K (WTCP60) which is 1/4" wide! Gets a few pins done at a time... ;) I've not gone over to the Rohs side, most of the solders are not fun to work with though a few have very active fluxes and solder aluminium well. So its Kester 44 in 10 and 20 mil (inch mil) diameters. I've done more than a few AD537 and similar Blackfin CPUs with their 288 BGA package that's a challenge to pull and replace. Allison From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 31 20:15:39 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:15:39 -0500 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <58DEFF3B.2060207@pico-systems.com> On 03/31/2017 06:28 PM, allison via cctech wrote: >>> >>> Is this something that an experienced hand can manually do? >> Yes, definitely. 100 lead PQFP is perfectly doable if the lead pitch is not insanely small. It takes a good fine tip soldering iron (mine is a Weller with a PTS tip), fine solder (preferably real, i.e., 63/37 non-PC solder). Liquid flux is a big help, as is a magnifier and bright light or modest magnification microscope. >> >> If you have to do a couple of dozen boards this gets very tedious, but for 5-ish it isn't a big deal. >> >> I have a project I do from time to time using 128-lead 14mm TQFPs with 0.4mm lead spacing. I use a stereo zoom microscope with a home-made LED ring light. First, I rub the pads with a pencil eraser to remove oxidation caused by reflow temps on the rest of the board. I put a tiny dab of solder on two pads at opposite corners. I then place the chip in place and reflow those pads. If the alignment is not good enough, I can "walk" the chip a bit by reflowing one, then the other pad. Then, I apply liquid flux to the rows of leads with a wire dipped in the flux. And, then solder down the rows with a fine-tip soldering iron. If a bridge develops, solder wick fixes it. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 31 23:15:22 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:15:22 -0700 Subject: Stuffing boards with pulled QFP chips In-Reply-To: <58DEFF3B.2060207@pico-systems.com> References: <58DE82A7.9080801@pico-systems.com> <4518530f-55b8-9a4f-01a8-ce349045df1c@verizon.net> <5A957EC6-B524-42C5-ACCF-C0AD04E72D4A@comcast.net> <58DEFF3B.2060207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3ed158f3-2766-be45-b756-3bd685c4a29e@sydex.com> On 03/31/2017 06:15 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > I have a project I do from time to time using 128-lead 14mm TQFPs > with 0.4mm lead spacing. I use a stereo zoom microscope with a > home-made LED ring light. First, I rub the pads with a pencil eraser > to remove oxidation caused by reflow temps on the rest of the board. > I put a tiny dab of solder on two pads at opposite corners. I then > place the chip in place and reflow those pads. If the alignment is > not good enough, I can "walk" the chip a bit by reflowing one, then > the other pad. Then, I apply liquid flux to the rows of leads with > a wire dipped in the flux. And, then solder down the rows with a > fine-tip soldering iron. If a bridge develops, solder wick fixes > it. There are plenty of good Youtube videos describing this. I use pretty much the same method, but start off with just a binocular loupe and then finish with a stereo microscope for final inspection. The soldering iron tip that works best for me is a rather broad chisel tip. I leave the fine tips for other work. --Chuck