From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 07:00:31 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 09:00:31 -0300 Subject: Wanted - two 27C010-capable EPROM emulators References: <7090ad5f-13ef-6d14-6acd-a24c6dda4d42@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Can't you roll your own? It is SO easy to build one, if you don't mind the hassle!? --- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 7:07 PM Subject: Wanted - two 27C010-capable EPROM emulators > Hi there, > > Does anyone have a pair of spare EPROM emulators which are capable of > emulating 27C010 EPROMs? > Ideally two identical ones, but that's optional. > > > I'm trying to reverse-engineer a Securicor Datatrak MkII navigation > receiver and build a signal generator which can emulate a chain of > Datatrak transmitters. I'm part of the way there, but I've hit something > of an impasse: > > > * My emulator isn't good enough to run the firmware on a PC (it > crashes when the RTOS starts to boot). > > * My knowledge of the hardware is full of holes (especially the > simple-but-custom ASIC). Porting a monitor ROM using EPROMs would take a > fair while, even with the HP16700A to use as a "debugger". I'd like to > try patching the firmware, but with bare EPROMs that'll take a while to > get right. > > > I could swear these things were as common as housebricks on ebay a year > or so ago, but now they're not quite so common... > > > Incidentally, if someone (preferable in the EEA) has a spare HP 16717A > acquisition card (for the 16700A series logic analysers) for sale, I'd > be very interested in getting another one -- my second 16717A seems to > have died while in storage, and spying on the 68k has eaten up all the > pod inputs on my one working card. > > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From t.gardner at computer.org Thu Sep 1 12:16:46 2016 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 10:16:46 -0700 Subject: Wanted PATA HBA and IDE/UDMA Drive Message-ID: <005c01d20474$9edfa4e0$dc9eeea0$@computer.org> Hi: Looking for a PATA HBA (PCI, EISA or ISA) and if available an associated ATA/IDE drive preferably UDMA/33 but no faster than UDMA/100 This would likely be found in a PIII Pro or earlier system built prior to 1997 (I think the Natoma 440FX PII was the first to integrate IDE into the Southbridge) It might be from a later system as an expansion add in. This maybe a repeat request but I don't recall seeing my first request posted to the list - sorry if I'm wasting time. Any reasonable offer will be considered. Thanks Tom t.gardner at computer.org 650 941-5324 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 1 12:23:15 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 10:23:15 -0700 Subject: Wanted PATA HBA and IDE/UDMA Drive In-Reply-To: <005c01d20474$9edfa4e0$dc9eeea0$@computer.org> References: <005c01d20474$9edfa4e0$dc9eeea0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <211342a9-07b7-0bce-6cb2-108565dc8eb6@bitsavers.org> On 9/1/16 10:16 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: > Hi: > > Looking for a PATA HBA (PCI, EISA or ISA) and if available an associated > ATA/IDE drive preferably UDMA/33 but no faster than UDMA/100 > there were some ISA PATA adapters in the pile of random boards in the back at weird stuff last time I looked and probably a small PATA drive in front From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 1 14:28:07 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 14:28:07 -0500 Subject: Wanted PATA HBA and IDE/UDMA Drive In-Reply-To: <211342a9-07b7-0bce-6cb2-108565dc8eb6@bitsavers.org> References: <005c01d20474$9edfa4e0$dc9eeea0$@computer.org> <211342a9-07b7-0bce-6cb2-108565dc8eb6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <001001d20486$f82be240$e883a6c0$@classiccmp.org> I have a box of about 80 pata drives, mostly between 20gb and 300gb. I was going to put the box in the freepile at VCFMW next week. I am having trouble finding that box though.... J From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Sep 1 15:33:20 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 21:33:20 +0100 Subject: RC2016/10 COMPETITION ENTRY IS OPEN! Message-ID: <7e4c8c98-b194-dbbe-4910-a09242a5e6cd@wickensonline.co.uk> RC2016/10 COMPETITION ENTRY IS OPEN! I am pleased to announce that Retrochallenge 2016/10 ? the ?October? edition of the Retrochallenge - will run and is now open to entrants! Roll-up Roll-up! Get those thinking caps on and come up with an excellent retro-computing project. Why not? The Retrochallenge 2016/10 competition will run from October 1st to the end of the month. Blog entries should be complete by midnight on Monday 31st October GMT. I would like to extend the warmest welcome to the fantastic John W. Linville who is taking over the running of the October competition and, if he gets the bug, make take the reins for future Retrochallenge Competitions. If you would like to enter please email john using the address ?linville @ /tuxdriver.com?/(removing spaces)//with your name (or handle), a brief synopsis of your project and a URL for your blog. See the website http://retrochallenge.org for more details. ABOUT RETROCHALLENGE In a nutshell, the RetroChallenge is a loosely disorganised gathering of RetroComputing enthusiasts who collectively do stuff with old computers for a month. The event is very much open to interpretation? individuals set there own challenges, which can range from programming to multimedia work; hardware restoration to exploring legacy networking? or just plain dicking around. It really doesn?t matter what you do, just so long as you do it. While the RetroChallenge has its competitive side, it?s not really a contest? it?s more like global thermonuclear war ? everyone can play, but nobody really wins. COMPETITION RULES 1. Retrochallenge commences 1st October 2016 and runs until 31st October 2016. 2. In order to qualify, computer systems must be vintage (this used to be defined as 10 years old, but typically ?vintage? is older than that now ? don?t expect to be accepted if you are using a box capable of running Windows XP for example!). Exceptions will always be made for exotica! 3. Gaming consoles and PDAs qualify if they were made in the previous century. 4. Where appropriate, replica hardware and emulators may be used. 5. Entrants are responsible for adequately documenting their projects and submitting occasional updates during the contest, preferably with an announcement on twitter with #retrochallenge. 6. Projects may encompass any aspect of retro-computing that tickles the fancy of the individual entrant. 7. Winners will be carefully selected and adulation bestowed. 8. Have fun! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 2 11:35:39 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 17:35:39 +0100 Subject: Atari / GEM docs Free to good home (York, UK) Message-ID: These are primarily for Atari ST, mostly photocopies in A4 ring binders, to go as one lot: * ISV Development System documentation for Atari 520ST includes BIOS listing and more. ring-bound The following items were probably provided as part of this... * Listing of GEM "hello" program (GEM sample desktop accessory) Module: HELLO, by Tom Holander, Digital Research Feb 1986 ring-bound photocopy * Atari ST BASIC Source Book, 1985 ring-bound, printed original * Atari Logo Source Book 1985, small spiral-wire-bound published copy * GEM PRogrammer's Guide - Volume 1: VDI GEM PRogrammer's Guide - Volume 2: AES 1985, Digital Research, ring-bound photocopy * GEM DOS 1.0 Spec Version 13 May 16 1985 Digital Research "DR Confidential: Internal Use Only. Not to be copied or given to customers." ring-bound photocopy * "The Long-Awaited 'Line-A' Document" describes "quick-and-dirty" graphics access using 68000 Line A exception. Ring-bound with GEM DOS 1.0 Spec * ST Series BIOS Rev.A 2/13/85 (Atari 130 ST and 520 ST) "Atari Corporation Confidential" Ring-bound with GEM DOS 1.0 Spec I need to move these before Saturday 17th September (2 weeks from now). If they're not claimed by then, I'll donate them to The Computer Sheds (http://www.computermuseum.org.uk). Because of the weight, it would be expensive to ship these things, though if anyone is really keen I'll consider it. Collection from York would be greatly preferred (tea and biscuits supplied) - or I can probably take them to the DEC Legacy Event in Windermere for collection on the weekend of 15/16th October (pay for your own tea and biscuits). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 2 11:36:04 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 17:36:04 +0100 Subject: Free to good home (York, UK) Message-ID: I'm trying to clear some space so I can actually get to classic things I want to play with, so I have the following to give away if anyone is interested: * Cromemco 16FDC Floppy Disk Controller Instruction Manual (2 copies) * Cromemco D+7A Input/Output Module Instruction Manual * Digital (DEC) BC19V-02 cable (DB25 to DD50) * HP JetDirect card (10base2, 10baseT, Localalk) * 5 x Iomega/Fuji ZIP (PC100) disks, mostly new unused * Box of 3.5" DSDD and HD floppies with assorted software, including Borland Turbo Assembler Borland Turbo Debugger Borland Turbo Profiler 3 sets of 4 disks : Borland Turbo Pascal for Windows set of 3 Borland Turbo Pascal Professional disk: Install/Turbo Vision/Compiler Help/BGI/Utilities TPCX Computer Associates SuperProject 3-user Lanpak Microsoft MS-DOS 5 Upgrade about 28 R:BASE disks, mostly V.4.0 about 25 CD-ROM driver disks (HD not DD) a couple of 3Com Etherdisks 5.01 (HD not DD) about 20 Logitech Mouseware 8.2 Multilingual disks: 2 x Disk 1 of 2 18 x Disk 2 of 2 * The Penguin Computing Book, Susan Curran and Ray Curnow, Penguin Books 1983, ISBN 0140465995 * Mathematical Logic for Computer Science, M. Ben-Ari, Prentice Hall 1993, ISBN 013564139X * 8086/8088 16-Bit Microprocessor Primer, Christopher L Morgan and Mitchell Waite, Byte Books 1982, ISBN 0070431094 * Fundamentals of Operating Systems, 4th Edition 1990, A.M.Lister and R.D.Eager, Macmillan 1979-1988, ISBN 0333469879 * Structured Computer Organisation, 3rd Edition 1990, Andrew Tanenbaum, Prentice-Hall 1990, ISBN 0138528721 * Acorn Archimedes 400 Series User Manual, and Welcome Guide * Assembly Language Programming for the Electron (Addison Wesley, John Ferguson and Tony Shaw) ISBN 0201145278 * a collection of Archive (Acorn Archimedes users' magazine) from Vol.1 No.1 (Oct.1987) to Vol.5 No.1 (Oct.1991) plus half a dozen extras. * 10 Electron User cassettes, Oct.1989 - July 1990. * manuals and stuff for BBC Micro: Wordwise Plus manual, 2nd Addition (sic), 1985 (Computer Concepts) ViewStore User Guide, 1st Edition, 1985 (Acorn, Acornsoft) ISBN 0907876455 View User Guide, 2nd Edition, 1986 (Acorn, Acornsoft) ISBN 1852500212 View User Guide, 1st Edition, 1985 (Acorn, Acornsoft) ISBN 0907876277 Into View, 2nd Edition, 1984 (Acorn, Acornsoft) ISBN 0907876811 View Guide, 2nd Edition, 1983 (Acorn, Acornsoft) ISBN 0907876803 View Reference Card (SBB31/R), 1985 (Acorn, Acornsoft) ViewSheet Reference Card (SBB07/R), 1984 (Acorn, Acornsoft) Electron Plus 1 User Guide, 1984 (Acorn Computers) Graphs and Charts, 1st Edition, 1982 (Acorn, Acornsoft) ISBN 0907876048 Graphics Extension ROM User Manual (Acorn, Acornsoft) (copy; not original, but comb-bound) A few of the above are also going on a well-known auction site, but naturally ClassicCmp subscribers have priority :-) I need to move these before Saturday 17th September (2 weeks from now). If they're not moved by then, I'll donate them to The Computer Sheds (http://www.computermuseum.org.uk). Because of the weight, it would be expensive to ship many of these things, though if anyone is really keen I'll consider it. Collection from York would be greatly preferred (tea and biscuits supplied) - or I can probably take them to the DEC Legacy Event in Windermere for collection on the weekend of 15/16th October (pay for your own tea and biscuits). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 2 11:36:59 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 17:36:59 +0100 Subject: more stuff FTGH (York, UK) Message-ID: <0bfaf599-0e71-f72d-9649-b1472725d659@dunnington.plus.com> And finally, some ancient and thus debatably classic software: * Zenith Data Systems - Microsoft Windows 3.0/3.1 Actually just the manuals (yes, once upon a time, in a universe far far away, Windows had actual manuals) and license. * Tulip Computers Windows 386 V2.10D Ring binder including User Guide, Desktop Applications manual, Write manual, Paint manual 4 x 3.5" HD disks - 3 for Windows, 1 for Tulip utilities * AppleShare 4.0 boxed, assorted manuals etc, 4 x 3.5" HD disks, 1 x CDROM includes the serial number needed to validate your server * HiSoft C Integrated Compiler/Editor manuals 1985-88 for CP/M 2 x 3" disks (presumably for Amstrad PCW) All in the original binder, with serial no. * HiSoft Nevada Cobol CP/M compiler/editor manuals, 3" disk for Amstrad PCW, with s/no. I need to move these before Saturday 17th September (2 weeks from now). If they're not moved by then, I'll donate them to The Computer Sheds (http://www.computermuseum.org.uk). Because of the weight, it would be expensive to ship these things, though if anyone is really keen I'll consider it. Collection from York would be greatly preferred (tea and biscuits supplied) - or I can probably take them to the DEC Legacy Event in Windermere for collection on the weekend of 15/16th October (pay for your own tea and biscuits). I need to move these before Saturday 17th September (2 weeks from now). If they're not claimed by then, I'll donate them to The Computer Sheds (http://www.computermuseum.org.uk). Because of the weight, it would be expensive to ship these things, though if anyone is really keen I'll consider it. Collection from York would be greatly preferred (tea and biscuits supplied) - or I can probably take them to the DEC Legacy Event in Windermere for collection on the weekend of 15/16th October (pay for your own tea and biscuits). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 2 11:36:17 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 17:36:17 +0100 Subject: Atari / GEM docs Free to good home (York, UK) Message-ID: <75daa2d1-5ba3-5d95-bf3d-c0ad8b803b34@dunnington.plus.com> These are primarily for Atari ST, mostly photocopies in A4 ring binders, to go as one lot: * ISV Development System documentation for Atari 520ST includes BIOS listing and more. ring-bound The following items are probably provided as part of this... * Listing of GEM "hello" program (GEM sample desktop accessory) Module: HELLO, by Tom Holander, Digital Research Feb 1986 ring-bound photocopy * Atari ST BASIC Source Book, 1985 ring-bound, printed original * Atari Logo Source Book 1985, small spiral-wire-bound published copy * GEM PRogrammer's Guide - Volume 1: VDI GEM PRogrammer's Guide - Volume 2: AES 1985, Digital Research, ring-bound photocopy * GEM DOS 1.0 Spec Version 13 May 16 1985 Digital Research "DR Confidential: Internal Use Only. Not to be copied or given to customers." ring-bound photocopy * "The Long-Awaited 'Line-A' Document" describes "quick-and-dirty" graphics access using 68000 Line A exception. Ring-bound with GEM DOS 1.0 Spec * ST Series BIOS Rev.A 2/13/85 (Atari 130 ST and 520 ST) "Atari Corporation Confidential" Ring-bound with GEM DOS 1.0 Spec I need to move these before Saturday 17th September (2 weeks from now). If they're not claimed by then, I'll donate them to The Computer Sheds (http://www.computermuseum.org.uk). Because of the weight, it would be expensive to ship these things, though if anyone is really keen I'll consider it. Collection from York would be greatly preferred (tea and biscuits supplied) - or I can probably take them to the DEC Legacy Event in Windermere for collection on the weekend of 15/16th October (pay for your own tea and biscuits). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 2 11:43:14 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 17:43:14 +0100 Subject: and one more I almost missed... FTGH Message-ID: <4033097a-0b18-037a-5037-f530f445629a@dunnington.plus.com> How many people remember the Wren Executive System? Or have even heard of it? Well, you can now own the manual for this not-very-successful sort-of-like-an-Osborne luggable! Free to good home from York, UK. Loose pages included. Terms and conditions apply. YMMV. E&OE. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From austinpass at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 11:49:23 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 17:49:23 +0100 Subject: Atari / GEM docs Free to good home (York, UK) In-Reply-To: <75daa2d1-5ba3-5d95-bf3d-c0ad8b803b34@dunnington.plus.com> References: <75daa2d1-5ba3-5d95-bf3d-c0ad8b803b34@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <7AAABFA7-52A4-44AE-82EE-23CCD8DA1AA5@gmail.com> Hi Pete. I would very much like these documents, amd can collect (I'm in Huddersfield). Regards, Austin. Sent from my iPhone > On 2 Sep 2016, at 17:36, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > These are primarily for Atari ST, mostly photocopies in A4 ring binders, to go as one lot: > > * ISV Development System documentation for Atari 520ST > > includes BIOS listing and more. > > ring-bound > > The following items are probably provided as part of this... > > > > * Listing of GEM "hello" program (GEM sample desktop accessory) > Module: HELLO, by Tom Holander, Digital Research Feb 1986 > ring-bound photocopy > > * Atari ST BASIC Source Book, 1985 > ring-bound, printed original > > * Atari Logo Source Book > 1985, small spiral-wire-bound published copy > > * GEM PRogrammer's Guide - Volume 1: VDI > GEM PRogrammer's Guide - Volume 2: AES > 1985, Digital Research, ring-bound photocopy > > * GEM DOS 1.0 Spec Version 13 > May 16 1985 Digital Research > "DR Confidential: Internal Use Only. > Not to be copied or given to customers." > ring-bound photocopy > > * "The Long-Awaited 'Line-A' Document" > describes "quick-and-dirty" graphics access using 68000 Line A > exception. > Ring-bound with GEM DOS 1.0 Spec > > * ST Series BIOS Rev.A 2/13/85 (Atari 130 ST and 520 ST) > "Atari Corporation Confidential" > Ring-bound with GEM DOS 1.0 Spec > > > I need to move these before Saturday 17th September (2 weeks from now). If they're not claimed by then, I'll donate them to The Computer Sheds (http://www.computermuseum.org.uk). > > Because of the weight, it would be expensive to ship these things, though if anyone is really keen I'll consider it. Collection from York would be greatly preferred (tea and biscuits supplied) - or I can probably take them to the DEC Legacy Event in Windermere for collection on the weekend of 15/16th October (pay for your own tea and biscuits). > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 2 12:02:42 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 10:02:42 -0700 Subject: Atari / GEM docs Free to good home (York, UK) In-Reply-To: <7AAABFA7-52A4-44AE-82EE-23CCD8DA1AA5@gmail.com> References: <75daa2d1-5ba3-5d95-bf3d-c0ad8b803b34@dunnington.plus.com> <7AAABFA7-52A4-44AE-82EE-23CCD8DA1AA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Did anyone else get the original message from Pete? The last message I got from the list was on 9-1-16 12:28PM from Jay, until Austin's reply a few minutes ago. On 9/2/16 9:49 AM, Austin Pass wrote: > Hi Pete. > > I would very much like these documents, amd can collect (I'm in Huddersfield). > >> On 2 Sep 2016, at 17:36, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 12:15:17 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 12:15:17 -0500 Subject: Atari / GEM docs Free to good home (York, UK) In-Reply-To: References: <75daa2d1-5ba3-5d95-bf3d-c0ad8b803b34@dunnington.plus.com> <7AAABFA7-52A4-44AE-82EE-23CCD8DA1AA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 12:02 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Did anyone else get the original message from Pete? > The last message I got from the list was on 9-1-16 12:28PM from Jay, until > Austin's reply a few minutes ago. > > I got three separate messages from Pete about stuff to give away. > > On 9/2/16 9:49 AM, Austin Pass wrote: > > Hi Pete. > > > > I would very much like these documents, amd can collect (I'm in > Huddersfield). > > > >> On 2 Sep 2016, at 17:36, Pete Turnbull > wrote: > >> > > -- Eric Christopherson From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 2 12:26:24 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 10:26:24 -0700 Subject: Atari / GEM docs Free to good home (York, UK) In-Reply-To: References: <75daa2d1-5ba3-5d95-bf3d-c0ad8b803b34@dunnington.plus.com> <7AAABFA7-52A4-44AE-82EE-23CCD8DA1AA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <320c1884-a582-7e8f-071c-a362ec306c05@bitsavers.org> thanks. it may be a cctech vs cctalk issue then. On 9/2/16 10:15 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 12:02 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Did anyone else get the original message from Pete? >> The last message I got from the list was on 9-1-16 12:28PM from Jay, until >> Austin's reply a few minutes ago. >> >> > I got three separate messages from Pete about stuff to give away. > > >> >> On 9/2/16 9:49 AM, Austin Pass wrote: >>> Hi Pete. >>> >>> I would very much like these documents, amd can collect (I'm in >> Huddersfield). >>> >>>> On 2 Sep 2016, at 17:36, Pete Turnbull >> wrote: >>>> >> >> > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 2 12:30:50 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 10:30:50 -0700 Subject: Atari / GEM docs Free to good home (York, UK) In-Reply-To: <320c1884-a582-7e8f-071c-a362ec306c05@bitsavers.org> References: <75daa2d1-5ba3-5d95-bf3d-c0ad8b803b34@dunnington.plus.com> <7AAABFA7-52A4-44AE-82EE-23CCD8DA1AA5@gmail.com> <320c1884-a582-7e8f-071c-a362ec306c05@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: weird.. they are in the archive. must be my mail filters http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-September/date.html On 9/2/16 10:26 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > thanks. it may be a cctech vs cctalk issue then. > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 2 12:39:36 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 18:39:36 +0100 Subject: Atari / GEM docs Free to good home (York, UK) In-Reply-To: References: <75daa2d1-5ba3-5d95-bf3d-c0ad8b803b34@dunnington.plus.com> <7AAABFA7-52A4-44AE-82EE-23CCD8DA1AA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3ae6389f-5950-13ba-14cc-1a40942d2e97@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/09/2016 18:02, Al Kossow wrote: > Did anyone else get the original message from Pete? > The last message I got from the list was on 9-1-16 12:28PM from Jay, until Austin's reply a few minutes ago. I'd just blame it on gremlins. Probably the same ones that infested my mail program (or, more likely, Windows) and posted one of the messages twice (once with extra CRLFs) and duplicated the last paragraphs in another. Bandwidth issue? What, you don't all have superfast unlimited fibre connections out there? Sorry :-( -- Pete Pete Turnbull From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Sep 2 13:44:57 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 14:44:57 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability? In-Reply-To: References: <0ae501d20170$b0fe0c90$12fa25b0$@ntlworld.com> <389BDF10-A221-4350-AFBF-83A5E46B9A51@comcast.net> <0b3401d20213$23395600$69ac0200$@ntlworld.com> <785C2453-4688-4593-A16D-0DFCB2907DC0@comcast.net> <0F805324-1051-4150-A140-628FCE4B24C1@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Sep 1, 2016, at 12:56 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 6:42 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> Yes, the one I saw when I made that comment is an MSM51V18165F by Lapis, a 1M by 16 "fast page mode" EDO DRAM. > > If it's EDO, it may not be compatible with systems that weren't > designed for EDO, and since none of the 16-pin parts were EDO, I'd > avoid it. > > "Normal" and FPM memory stops driving the data output when CAS is > deasserted, regardless of the state of RAS. EDO continues driving the > data output even with CAS deasserted, unless RAS is also deasserted. The ISSI memory calls itself "DRAM with fast page mode", it does not say "EDO". But judging from the timing diagrams (which show that data out turns off after the later of RAS and CAS deassertion) it sounds like "fast page mode" is a confusing way to say "EDO". Now the question becomes what the Pro actually does. I don't see it in the documentation or schematics, unfortunately. Incidentally, the Pro technical manual says that the daughterboard can be up to 2 MB (but DEC only offers 512 kB). It doesn't say how that is done. It looks like the answer is that there are four RAS signals, so you can have four banks, 256k by 16 each. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 13:52:53 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2016 13:52:53 -0500 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex Message-ID: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> Hi All, My local recycler contacted me to say he'd had some more old boards come in. They're scheduled to be sent for processing next Wednesday, but in a couple of hours I'm heading out of town for a few days - it's possible I can rescue some of it next Tuesday when I'm back, so in the meantime comments as to whether anything is useful/important/etc. would be appreciated! Apologies for photo quality, in a hurry and the only vacant spot was the floor of the employee bathroom :-( __Digital boards:__ M8014 M8012 M8061 (x2) M8013 - I think the 8012 is a boot/terminator board, so that sounds handy. The 8061's and M8013 are disk, I think - do modern emulators of the drives exist? If they do, maybe I should snag the controllers? Not sure about M8014. http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/d1.jpg - terminal board? DB25F and BNC on one edge. There was another similar board with two BNCs and a DB25F which was marked "VT100 basic video" on the underside, so I'm assuming this is related. http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/d2.jpg - 8085 CPU, ROM, RAM etc. Rows of transistors which perhaps suggests motor control, i.e. printer? http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/d3.jpg - related to d2.jpg?? __Fujitsu boards:__ At least, the main ICs are Fujitsu; there's no indication who the boards belong to. These are standalone boards, not ones that plug into a backplane. My hunch is that they're logic board pulls from old hard disks or tape drives - i.e. they're just garbage now. http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/f1.jpg - 2x 50-way connectors, switch in corner. PCB marked "KGKM B16B-934C-003" http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/f2.jpg - 2x 50-way connectors. PCB marked "CZGM B16B-9240-001" http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/f3.jpg - 2 x 50-way connectors, 1x 60W, 1x 26W. PCB marked "CZFM B16B-9230-0010A" http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/f4.jpg - 2 x 50-way connectors, 1x 60W, 1x 26W. PCB marked "KGFMU B16B-9830-0010A" __Cipher boards:__ There are two of these: http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/c1.jpg I suspect they're from some form of terminal (or maybe printer?), and now that they're separated from the rest of the system they're just junk. Note that someone seems to have scavenged a bunch of power transistors (or something) from them. __Emulex boards:__ I don't think any of these are the exact same models as the ones I rescued a little while ago, so I've included them here - but gut feeling is that they're still just tape (i.e. not SCSI) and so they're not worth the trouble. http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/e1.jpg - 2x50W, 1x?? (I forgot to make a note). CU0210402 on the PCB, CS0110202 on the "main" IC. http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/e2.jpg - 2x50W. TC0210201 on the "main" IC. There were a couple of others too each with a 60-way and pair of 26-way connectors; I suspect those are SMD. Chances are good I'll end up rescuing the DEC Mxxxx boards on Tuesday "just in case", but if anything else stands out then please shout; gut feeling is that they're PCBs from things that would have been quite wonderful once when complete but are now completely useless to anyone. cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 2 14:08:33 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 12:08:33 -0700 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> References: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6a41fa48-62ea-03fd-6d2b-2e9a9e882b22@bitsavers.org> On 9/2/16 11:52 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > __Fujitsu boards:__ > from 8" SMD disks > __Cipher boards:__ > from 1/2" streaming tapes > __Emulex boards:__ > T is normally tape and C is comm so this all was probably from a system with smd disks, cipher tape, and emulex comm mux From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Sep 2 14:04:48 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2016 20:04:48 +0100 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 02/09/2016 19:52, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/d1.jpg - terminal board? DB25F and > BNC on one edge. There was another similar board with two BNCs and a DB25F > which was marked "VT100 basic video" on the underside, so I'm assuming this > is related. That's the logic board from a VT100 as you guessed. No AVO or owt special apart from rust. Worth saving. Pity you're so far away from me these days :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 14:05:58 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 15:05:58 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability? In-Reply-To: References: <0ae501d20170$b0fe0c90$12fa25b0$@ntlworld.com> <389BDF10-A221-4350-AFBF-83A5E46B9A51@comcast.net> <0b3401d20213$23395600$69ac0200$@ntlworld.com> <785C2453-4688-4593-A16D-0DFCB2907DC0@comcast.net> <0F805324-1051-4150-A140-628FCE4B24C1@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Incidentally, the Pro technical manual says that the daughterboard can be up to 2 MB (but DEC only offers 512 kB). It doesn't say how that is done. It looks like the answer is that there are four RAS signals, so you can have four banks, 256k by 16 each. Hmm... 2 Daughterboards at 2MB each? A full 22-bit boat of RAM? Sweet! I have more than one Pro - I started upgrading one with 256kbit DRAMs. I also had a PSU smoke on my Pro380 and got a replacement but haven't installed it yet. I'm already in "repair all the PDP-11s" mode, so I'll add it to the stack. Someday, I'll get 2BSD up on at least one of them (for now, I have RT-11 and Venix) -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 2 14:11:40 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 12:11:40 -0700 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <6a41fa48-62ea-03fd-6d2b-2e9a9e882b22@bitsavers.org> References: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> <6a41fa48-62ea-03fd-6d2b-2e9a9e882b22@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <72795854-2fc3-38e7-fbaa-0abb8ebb2bc4@bitsavers.org> On 9/2/16 12:08 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> __Emulex boards:__ >> > > T is normally tape and C is comm > > so this all was probably from a system with smd disks, cipher tape, and emulex comm mux > > here is a nice picture page of emulex boards http://www.compsy.de/moduls/emulex.htm From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 14:10:38 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 15:10:38 -0400 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> References: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hi All, > > My local recycler contacted me to say he'd had some more old boards come in... > > __Emulex boards:__ > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/e1.jpg - 2x50W, 1x?? (I forgot to > make a note). CU0210402 on the PCB, CS0110202 on the "main" IC. 8 port serial board - there are UARTs and 8-pin 9636/9637 level shifters in sight. > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/e2.jpg - 2x50W. TC0210201 on the > "main" IC. That is a tape controller of some kind. > There were a couple of others too each with a 60-way and pair of 26-way > connectors; I suspect those are SMD. Most likely SMD. -ethan From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Sep 2 14:26:30 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 15:26:30 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability? In-Reply-To: References: <0ae501d20170$b0fe0c90$12fa25b0$@ntlworld.com> <389BDF10-A221-4350-AFBF-83A5E46B9A51@comcast.net> <0b3401d20213$23395600$69ac0200$@ntlworld.com> <785C2453-4688-4593-A16D-0DFCB2907DC0@comcast.net> <0F805324-1051-4150-A140-628FCE4B24C1@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Sep 2, 2016, at 3:05 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> Incidentally, the Pro technical manual says that the daughterboard can be up to 2 MB (but DEC only offers 512 kB). It doesn't say how that is done. It looks like the answer is that there are four RAS signals, so you can have four banks, 256k by 16 each. > > Hmm... 2 Daughterboards at 2MB each? A full 22-bit boat of RAM? > Sweet! I was talking about the Pro 380, which has only one daughterboard. Still, 2.5 MB is not shabby. See page 6-25 in the technical manual. Then again: see also page 6-52 and 6-53, the memory config register. And the description on page 26 of the Pro 380 schematics. It says pretty clearly that you could use 256k DRAM on the motherboard, which (if you install all four banks) would mean 2 MB on the motherboard. Both motherboard and daughterboard have two wires to indicate bank count (1..4) and a "256 kB memory chips" signal as well, so both are in principle capable of being up to 2 MB each. What happens if you install 4 MB is not entirely clear, since the I/O page still has to go to I/O of course. A four bank "256k" daughtercard would be straightforward; I figure you could do it with a few gates plus a 1Mx16 memory chip -- give or take the EDO issue discussed earlier. Installing 256k memories in the motherboard of course is more of a job because you have to take the existing baord apart. The Pro 350 only has one RAS signal. Then again, the connector pinout (page 5-129) shows a "Bank" signal; I wonder what that means. Does anyone have Pro 350 schematics? paul From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Sep 2 14:49:59 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 15:49:59 -0400 Subject: Docs for DEC MPS Intel 8008 Development System scanned Message-ID: <83310.3da461b.44fb31e7@aol.com> Jack, how many of these are there out there? ... Nice front panel on it too! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 8/26/2016 9:41:04 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, j at ckrubin.us writes: The MPS (MicroProcessor Series) was an attempt by DEC to introduce an Intel 8008-based system as a cost-effective replacement for minicomputers used in process control. The system has its own 14-bit blinkenlights front panel for accessing the 8008. Docs here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bezyixp76x2q3i4/AAAdGzzycbTIys1Ftde2BpR5a?dl=0 I'll leave the docs up for a week or so. Jack From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 2 14:40:26 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 20:40:26 +0100 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> References: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 02/09/2016 19:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > M8012 BDV11 bootstrap-terminator/LTC. Most are 18-bit termination, but later ones - or with a trivial ECO - are 22-bit termination. > M8061 (x2) RLV12 - later version RL01/RL02 disk controller. Worth having. > M8014 > M8013 These are a pair; the upper and lower parts of an RLV11 - earlier RL01/RL02 disk controller. > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/d1.jpg - terminal board? Looks like the logic board from a VT100 series. > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/d3.jpg - related to d2.jpg?? No, it's the main logic board from an RL01/RL02 disk drive. There were three revisions, of which the first only worked with RL01s; this looks like the second one. > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/e1.jpg - 2x50W, 1x?? (I forgot to > make aaustinpass at gmail.com note). CU0210402 on the PCB, CS0110202 on the "main" IC. QBus 8-way serial line. Emulates a DHV11, IIRC. > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/e2.jpg - 2x50W. TC0210201 on the > "main" IC. QBus tape controller, Pertec interface. > There were a couple of others too each with a 60-way and pair of > 26-way connectors; I suspect those are SMD. Sounds very likely. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Sep 2 15:58:20 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 13:58:20 -0700 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> References: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <168af8fc-1160-2286-e997-60c99bd168bc@jwsss.com> On 9/2/2016 11:52 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > __Cipher boards:__ > > There are two of these: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/c1.jpg > > I suspect they're from some form of terminal (or maybe printer?), and > now that they're separated from the rest of the system they're just > junk. Note that someone seems to have scavenged a bunch of power > transistors (or something) from them. Here is a Youtube video of someone loading tape on an 990 cache streamer. It is a much upgraded, and probably SCSI interface version of the streamer, but the loading is very similar. The electronics are pretty much completely different. The above board by the way has P1/P2 formatted Pertec tape interface connectors in and out on the left end of the board you photographed. The Cipher SCSI usually have 50 pin scsi single ended interfaces. There is a box that attaches to the rear of the Microdata drive in the previous ebay link which converts the SCSI interface in to a formatted P1/P2 Pertec interface. thanks Jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Sep 2 15:54:11 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 13:54:11 -0700 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> References: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <218cbc99-3d88-b6bd-f5a4-3c004eed87a1@jwsss.com> On 9/2/2016 11:52 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > __Cipher boards:__ > > There are two of these: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/c1.jpg > > I suspect they're from some form of terminal (or maybe printer?), and > now that they're separated from the rest of the system they're just > junk. Note that someone seems to have scavenged a bunch of power > transistors (or something) from them. This is the main logic board of an F890 streamer drive. It has been stripped of the TO5 and heatsink down the top, and I'm amazed none of the connectors were clipped. pretty much scrap unless you want to scavenge the remaining proms and label their locations for possible bit rot on another unit. The auction below is for a ridiculously priced unit from some Microdata system. It should only be listed for about 50 to 100 bucks as it almost certainly will need to be repaired. thanks Jim Microdata-Modification-Streamer-Tape-CS20029000-029-Rev-A http://www.ebay.com/itm/281611244780 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 16:40:14 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 22:40:14 +0100 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> References: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d001d20562$97a8c640$c6fa52c0$@gmail.com> Jules, Where in the world are these... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules > Richardson > Sent: 02 September 2016 19:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex > > Hi All, > > My local recycler contacted me to say he'd had some more old boards come > in. They're scheduled to be sent for processing next Wednesday, but in a > couple of hours I'm heading out of town for a few days - it's possible I can > rescue some of it next Tuesday when I'm back, so in the meantime > comments as to whether anything is useful/important/etc. would be > appreciated! > > Apologies for photo quality, in a hurry and the only vacant spot was the floor > of the employee bathroom :-( > > __Digital boards:__ > > M8014 > M8012 > M8061 (x2) > M8013 > - I think the 8012 is a boot/terminator board, so that sounds handy. The > 8061's and M8013 are disk, I think - do modern emulators of the drives exist? > If they do, maybe I should snag the controllers? Not sure about M8014. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/d1.jpg - terminal board? DB25F and > BNC on one edge. There was another similar board with two BNCs and a > DB25F which was marked "VT100 basic video" on the underside, so I'm > assuming this is related. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/d2.jpg - 8085 CPU, ROM, RAM etc. > Rows of transistors which perhaps suggests motor control, i.e. printer? > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/d3.jpg - related to d2.jpg?? > > > __Fujitsu boards:__ > > At least, the main ICs are Fujitsu; there's no indication who the boards > belong to. These are standalone boards, not ones that plug into a backplane. > My hunch is that they're logic board pulls from old hard disks or tape drives - > i.e. they're just garbage now. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/f1.jpg - 2x 50-way connectors, > switch in corner. PCB marked "KGKM B16B-934C-003" > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/f2.jpg - 2x 50-way connectors. PCB > marked "CZGM B16B-9240-001" > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/f3.jpg - 2 x 50-way connectors, 1x > 60W, 1x 26W. PCB marked "CZFM B16B-9230-0010A" > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/f4.jpg - 2 x 50-way connectors, 1x > 60W, 1x 26W. PCB marked "KGFMU B16B-9830-0010A" > > > __Cipher boards:__ > > There are two of these: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/c1.jpg > > I suspect they're from some form of terminal (or maybe printer?), and now > that they're separated from the rest of the system they're just junk. Note > that someone seems to have scavenged a bunch of power transistors (or > something) from them. > > > __Emulex boards:__ > > I don't think any of these are the exact same models as the ones I rescued > a little while ago, so I've included them here - but gut feeling is that > they're still just tape (i.e. not SCSI) and so they're not worth the trouble. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/e1.jpg - 2x50W, 1x?? (I forgot to > make a note). CU0210402 on the PCB, CS0110202 on the "main" IC. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/ub/e2.jpg - 2x50W. TC0210201 on the > "main" IC. > > There were a couple of others too each with a 60-way and pair of 26-way > connectors; I suspect those are SMD. > > > > Chances are good I'll end up rescuing the DEC Mxxxx boards on Tuesday "just > in case", but if anything else stands out then please shout; gut feeling is > that they're PCBs from things that would have been quite wonderful once > when complete but are now completely useless to anyone. > > cheers > > Jules From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Sep 3 01:27:35 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 02:27:35 -0400 Subject: VCF videos ahoy Message-ID: <90edcc20-5d40-3bd7-8d3e-af9bc1391c44@snarc.net> Tonight we posted a bunch of old (1997-2007) VCF West videos. Please see http://vcfed.org/wp/2016/09/03/many-more-videos-are-posted/. Many more will be posted soon. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 04:25:40 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 21:25:40 +1200 Subject: DEC Indicator Panels page In-Reply-To: <20160817205632.CA7DF18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160817205632.CA7DF18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So, I've been working for a while on a page about DEC indicator panels (the > standardized 36x4 light arrays which go into a 19" rack, with an inlay to > customize it to a particular device). It's online now, here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > > Does anyone happen to have a good image of an RK08 panel, or an RF11, which I > can use here? > > Even better, does anyone know of, or have images of, panels which are not > listed here? (I am not including the unknown 'RK' panel in the RSTS document, > which will be the subject of a separate message.) > > Thanks! > > Noel Noel I have taken better pics of the pdp-15 panels. FP15: http://www.corestore.org/FP15ind.jpg RP15: http://www.corestore.org/RP15ind.jpg TC59: http://www.corestore.org/TC59ind.jpg I'll take some more when I'm at the point where I can light them up :-) http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Sep 3 08:02:43 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2016 14:02:43 +0100 Subject: Power Supply capacitor physical size Message-ID: Hi folks, Looking at the PSU of my Lisa's ProFile after it died gracefully not so long back and it obviously needs new caps since one of the 1000uF 16V ones has bulged badly. While I'm replacing that one I'll do the 47uF 250V ones too. And the mains filters but I've got a stock of spares for them already. Apologies for what's probably a dumb question, but when it comes to cap replacement I know I can go up a notch if the required capacitance or voltage isn't available so 25V and 400V is ok, but what about physical size? I can get the correct capacitance/voltage but they're physically much smaller than the ones I'm replacing, like 10mm instead of 16mm diameter. If I go up to 25V I can get 16mm diameter which is the size of the old ones. Am I worrying for nothing? Cheers, from a room not filled with RIFA smoke for once :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 09:56:39 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 15:56:39 +0100 Subject: Power Supply capacitor physical size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014f01d205f3$6087a5a0$2196f0e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 03 September 2016 14:03 > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Power Supply capacitor physical size > > Hi folks, > > Looking at the PSU of my Lisa's ProFile after it died gracefully not so long back > and it obviously needs new caps since one of the 1000uF 16V ones has > bulged badly. While I'm replacing that one I'll do the 47uF 250V ones too. > And the mains filters but I've got a stock of spares for them already. > > Apologies for what's probably a dumb question, but when it comes to cap > replacement I know I can go up a notch if the required capacitance or voltage > isn't available so 25V and 400V is ok, but what about physical size? > I can get the correct capacitance/voltage but they're physically much smaller > than the ones I'm replacing, like 10mm instead of 16mm diameter. If I go up > to 25V I can get 16mm diameter which is the size of the old ones. Modern caps are physically smaller so folks who want to preserve the look of objects resort to Capacitor Stuffing.. .. put a new modern cap inside the old case... > > Am I worrying for nothing? > Personally I think that it's a valid question. > Cheers, from a room not filled with RIFA smoke for once :) > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > Dave G4UGM From brendan at bslabs.net Sat Sep 3 10:04:33 2016 From: brendan at bslabs.net (Brendan Shanks) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 08:04:33 -0700 Subject: Big Apple/Atari/Commodore/TRS-80 sale today in Orange, CA Message-ID: https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/gms/5763569283.html I went to this sale last week and picked up a DECmate and some Mac stuff, the amount of stuff he had was remarkable. Sale is today only. Some of the cool stuff I saw last week: - 2 x ADM-3 terminals - Quadra 950, WGS 95, WGS 9150 - 2 x Macintosh Portrait Display - lots of classic Macs, some PPC AIOs (52xx), G3/G4 iMacs - Apple Studio Display (the original blue-colored LCD) - Centris 650, beige G3s - so much other Atari/Commodore/TRS-80 stuff Brendan From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Sep 3 10:19:58 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2016 10:19:58 -0500 Subject: Power Supply capacitor physical size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57CAEA1E.60102@pico-systems.com> On 09/03/2016 08:02 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Looking at the PSU of my Lisa's ProFile after it died gracefully not so long > back and it obviously needs new caps since one of the 1000uF 16V ones has > bulged badly. While I'm replacing that one I'll do the 47uF 250V ones too. > And the mains filters but I've got a stock of spares for them already. > > Apologies for what's probably a dumb question, but when it comes to cap > replacement I know I can go up a notch if the required capacitance or > voltage isn't available so 25V and 400V is ok, but what about physical size? > I can get the correct capacitance/voltage but they're physically much > smaller than the ones I'm replacing, like 10mm instead of 16mm diameter. If > I go up to 25V I can get 16mm diameter which is the size of the old ones. > > Am I worrying for nothing? > > Maybe not. Capacitors that are subjected to high AC ripple current may need the large surface area for cooling. Possibly using a low-ESR capacitor will help reduce heating, but might have other undesirable effects. So, you need to know a bit about the circuit and the stresses placed on the capacitors to decide. if the ripple current is low, then smaller caps are no problem at all. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Sep 3 10:56:04 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 11:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Power Supply capacitor physical size Message-ID: <20160903155604.1830D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson >> needs new caps since one of the 1000uF 16V ones has bulged badly. >> ... >> If I go up to 25V I can get 16mm diameter which is the size of the old >> ones. > Capacitors that are subjected to high AC ripple current may need the > large surface area for cooling. Interesting point - but in his particular case, he should be OK replacing the old 16V cap with a similar-sized modern 25V cap? Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Sep 3 11:39:33 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2016 11:39:33 -0500 Subject: Power Supply capacitor physical size In-Reply-To: <20160903155604.1830D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160903155604.1830D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57CAFCC5.9010409@pico-systems.com> On 09/03/2016 10:56 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jon Elson > > >> needs new caps since one of the 1000uF 16V ones has bulged badly. > >> ... > >> If I go up to 25V I can get 16mm diameter which is the size of the old > >> ones. > > > Capacitors that are subjected to high AC ripple current may need the > > large surface area for cooling. > > Interesting point - but in his particular case, he should be OK replacing the > old 16V cap with a similar-sized modern 25V cap? > > Similar size - then no problem! But, some new cap types are VASTLY smaller than the caps from 40 years ago. Jon From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Sep 3 12:07:31 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2016 18:07:31 +0100 Subject: Power Supply capacitor physical size In-Reply-To: <57CAFCC5.9010409@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 03/09/2016 17:39, "Jon Elson" wrote: > On 09/03/2016 10:56 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> From: Jon Elson >> >>>> needs new caps since one of the 1000uF 16V ones has bulged badly. >>>> ... >>>> If I go up to 25V I can get 16mm diameter which is the size of the old >>>> ones. >> >>> Capacitors that are subjected to high AC ripple current may need the >>> large surface area for cooling. >> >> Interesting point - but in his particular case, he should be OK replacing the >> old 16V cap with a similar-sized modern 25V cap? >> >> > Similar size - then no problem! But, some new cap types are > VASTLY smaller than the caps from 40 years ago. Hence my question, I'll stick with the same size but higher voltage. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jrr at flippers.com Sat Sep 3 17:27:51 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 15:27:51 -0700 Subject: Power Supply capacitor physical size Message-ID: On 09/03/2016 10:07 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 03/09/2016 17:39, "Jon Elson" wrote: > >> On 09/03/2016 10:56 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>>> From: Jon Elson >>>>> needs new caps since one of the 1000uF 16V ones has bulged badly. >>>>> ... >>>>> If I go up to 25V I can get 16mm diameter which is the size of the old >>>>> ones. >>>> Capacitors that are subjected to high AC ripple current may need the >>>> large surface area for cooling. >>> Interesting point - but in his particular case, he should be OK replacing the >>> old 16V cap with a similar-sized modern 25V cap? >>> >>> >> Similar size - then no problem! But, some new cap types are >> VASTLY smaller than the caps from 40 years ago. > Hence my question, I'll stick with the same size but higher voltage. > > Cheers! > You do have to consider where in the circuit the capacitor is. If this is a switching power supply (as I suspect) then if the cap is after the switching transformer it MUST be a low ESR, high temp cap - otherwise it won't last very long. If this is on the primary side and is simply filtering the input rectified AC then ESR is not as big a problem, but you need a good physical size if the switching supply puts out a fair bit of current due to heating effects of low frequency ripple. So, it all depends. For general repair I would get the best grade of capacitor - say Panasonic - with a nice low ESR and away you go. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From brad at facefault.org Sun Sep 4 01:23:13 2016 From: brad at facefault.org (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 02:23:13 -0400 Subject: Apple IIgs and (separately) Big Apple collection, Baltimore MD area (USA) Message-ID: Both these locations are NW of Baltimore, Maryland. I have no relationship with either seller but am willing to do in-person recon for people on this list if required. Large lot of Apple stuff, $1200 Mostly Macs but a good amount of Apple II stuff (including a //c with all original boxes and paperwork) Westminster, MD http://baltimore.craigslist.org/sys/5763302040.html Apple IIGS, $100 3.5 and 5.25 floppy drives, monitor, keyboard, mouse New Windsor, MD http://baltimore.craigslist.org/sys/5746461980.html ? Brad Ackerman N1MNB PGP: 0x9F49A373 brad at facefault.org <*> http://bsa.smugmug.com/ From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 01:08:26 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 23:08:26 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> Episode 5, still does not boot, but we are starting to follow long why: https://youtu.be/Wr7vDZpniNIr Marc > On Jul 31, 2016, at 6:12 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: > > Next Episode: > https://youtu.be/EDw8U1a6s78 > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_31.html > Marc > > From: Curious Marc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 2:01 AM > To: Curious Marc; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines > > Ken's in-depth blog post to go with the previous video > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_11.html > > On Jul 5, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > > Video from yesterday?s work on the Diablo cartridge disc: > https://youtu.be/PR5LkQugBE0 > Should be up in a few minutes. > We were tickled pink to have official representation from PARC (former Xerox Parc) at the session. > Marc > > Ken?s new post on the monitor repair to go with my previous video. > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html > Al Kossow got us a new CRT tube, so we are probably going to try that this week-end. > Marc > > > Latest entry from Ken Shirriff, trying out BCPL (ancestor of C). On the emulator, not yet on the real machine: > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/hello-world-in-bcpl-language-on-xerox.html > > Marc > > There are only two entries right now: > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html > Marc > > From isking at uw.edu Sat Sep 3 19:41:23 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 17:41:23 -0700 Subject: Power Supply capacitor physical size In-Reply-To: References: <57CAFCC5.9010409@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I try very hard to match physical size and since, as has been noted, that usually means higher working voltage, it's not a negative. If you're preserving something as an historical artifact, be sure to document what you've done! Otherwise, someone will be really confused 10-20 years from now when, trying to maintain the machine, they see a different value on the board than on the printset. :-) IMHO -- Ian On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 03/09/2016 17:39, "Jon Elson" wrote: > > > On 09/03/2016 10:56 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >>> From: Jon Elson > >> > >>>> needs new caps since one of the 1000uF 16V ones has bulged badly. > >>>> ... > >>>> If I go up to 25V I can get 16mm diameter which is the size of the old > >>>> ones. > >> > >>> Capacitors that are subjected to high AC ripple current may need the > >>> large surface area for cooling. > >> > >> Interesting point - but in his particular case, he should be OK > replacing the > >> old 16V cap with a similar-sized modern 25V cap? > >> > >> > > Similar size - then no problem! But, some new cap types are > > VASTLY smaller than the caps from 40 years ago. > > Hence my question, I'll stick with the same size but higher voltage. > > Cheers! > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 4 00:04:09 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 22:04:09 -0700 Subject: DCS 2400 or System 2400? Message-ID: <4f212dee-fa49-3515-209e-4e0dd577769d@sbcglobal.net> I found a simple manual for a "System 2400" 24 bit computer. Can be downloaded here: http://dvq.com/docs/dcs2400o.pdf There's a reference to "dcs 2400" and on the title page, "Digital Computer" from the rep. Gene Baumgardner. Does anyone have more info on this computer, or the company who made it? It looks like an interesting system. -Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Sep 3 20:31:33 2016 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 02:31:33 +0100 Subject: Wanted - two 27C010-capable EPROM emulators In-Reply-To: References: <7090ad5f-13ef-6d14-6acd-a24c6dda4d42@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 01/09/16 13:00, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Can't you roll your own? It is SO easy to build one, if you don't > mind the hassle!? I was looking at that option, but I still have repressed memories from the last one I designed :P Getting the PCB layout onto two layers was hell. If I did it again, I'd use a CPLD and an FTDI FT240X USB interface, but most CPLDs are 3.3V -- which leaves level translation to a 5V host. That might well be the path I take -- a custom-designed EPROM emulator for the Datatrak unit, to plug into the front-panel EPROM board socket. I was just hoping to be a little lazy and save some effort :) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 4 05:21:03 2016 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 11:21:03 +0100 Subject: Wanted - two 27C010-capable EPROM emulators In-Reply-To: References: <7090ad5f-13ef-6d14-6acd-a24c6dda4d42@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <0521f2e4-6d94-ada2-e6b3-0fa04ca6da2b@philpem.me.uk> On 01/09/16 04:11, Glen Slick wrote: > Grammar Engine PromICE units show up on eBay from time to time in the > US sometimes around the $20 range for just the box alone. Then you > need to supply your own power adapter and ribbon cable DIP plug > adapters. Ahh - I hadn't heard of the PromICE. Thanks for the lead! Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 20:08:58 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 19:08:58 -0600 Subject: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability? In-Reply-To: References: <0ae501d20170$b0fe0c90$12fa25b0$@ntlworld.com> <389BDF10-A221-4350-AFBF-83A5E46B9A51@comcast.net> <0b3401d20213$23395600$69ac0200$@ntlworld.com> <785C2453-4688-4593-A16D-0DFCB2907DC0@comcast.net> <0F805324-1051-4150-A140-628FCE4B24C1@comcast.net> Message-ID: I wrote: > Mouser has some in > stock, e.g., the IS41C16105-50KLI in SOJ-42 package at $7.20 each > (quantity one) or the IS41C16105-50TLI in TSOP-44 package at $7.02 > each (quantity one). On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > The ISSI memory calls itself "DRAM with fast page mode", it does not say "EDO". But judging from the timing diagrams (which show that data out turns off after the later of RAS and CAS deassertion) it sounds like "fast page mode" is a confusing way to say "EDO". ISSI selection information refers to the IS41C16100C as EDO, and the IS41C16105C as FPM. I suspect that they were careless in preparing the timing diagram on page 11 of the IS41C16106C (FPM) datasheet, including footnote 1. Another consideration in replacing legacy DRAM is that the x1 parts have separate DIN and DOUT pins, while the wider parts have them in common. Many but not all systems that use legacy DRAM tied DIN and DOUT together. Using wider DRAMs in the systems that did not may require additional buffers and control logic. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Sep 4 14:13:01 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 12:13:01 -0700 Subject: Data Genera MPT/100 Message-ID: <20160904121301.0f8525a0@asrock.bcwi.net> I have a nice, clean DG MPT/100 I'm in the process of restoring. As you might expect, I contacted Bruce at "Wild Hare" to see what documentation and software he had for the critter. He was able provide some helpful PDF documentation - but NO schematic or software. Without software, the MPT/100 is essentially useless. If anyone has the 5.25" floppy system and/or diagnostic diskette sets for this workstation I'd really appreciate images of same. If you have the floppies, but no images, and you lend me your floppies, I'll make images and make them publicly available and return your floppies (assuming you want them back). If by some stroke of luck you have the schematics for the MPT/100 (DG part numbers: Mainboard 001-002963 and Keyboard 001-002688) I could really use them :) The MPT/100 contains the DG microNOVA mN602 CPU and 64K of system RAM plus video memory. Software for the MPT/100 includes a set of Diagnostic diskettes and the MP/OS system diskettes. Regards, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Sep 4 18:28:06 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 00:28:06 +0100 Subject: Power Supply capacitor physical size In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 03/09/2016 23:27, "John Robertson" wrote: >>> Similar size - then no problem! But, some new cap types are >>> VASTLY smaller than the caps from 40 years ago. >> Hence my question, I'll stick with the same size but higher voltage. >> >> Cheers! >> > > You do have to consider where in the circuit the capacitor is. If this > is a switching power supply (as I suspect) then if the cap is after the > switching transformer it MUST be a low ESR, high temp cap - otherwise it > won't last very long. If this is on the primary side and is simply > filtering the input rectified AC then ESR is not as big a problem, but > you need a good physical size if the switching supply puts out a fair > bit of current due to heating effects of low frequency ripple. > > So, it all depends. > > For general repair I would get the best grade of capacitor - say > Panasonic - with a nice low ESR and away you go. Panasonic and Multicomp as it happens, identical capacitance and similar size but higher voltage rating. The mentioned heating effects worried me so I went big. Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Sep 4 19:10:13 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 17:10:13 -0700 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? Message-ID: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> Hi all ? I?m trying to run a real-deal vt100 on a serial port connected to Linux (Xubunto 16.04). I?ve got this working *pretty* well, but it looks like the padding values in the default vt100 terminfo entry are not quite correct ? when running the vt100 at 9600 I still get occasional garbage characters on the screen, and 19200 is a hopeless mess. I did figure out that if the terminfo contains ?xon?, the non-mandatory padding values in the terminfo are disregarded. Removing this, then disabling xon/xoff on both the vt100 and the tty device actually produces *better* results ? apparently the turnaround on xon/xoff isn?t quite fast enough to keep the terminal from being swamped at higher baud rates, and padding actually works better. But tracking down the source for the default vt100 entry turned up a comment that admits that the padding values there are a total guess. :-( So, before I go diving too much further into the terminfo-tweaking-samp, I thought I?d ask if anybody has a good vt100 entry already on hand? (I?d take one for the VT52 as well!) thanks much, ?FritzM. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 20:03:58 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 21:03:58 -0400 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Sep 4, 2016 8:10 PM, "Fritz Mueller" wrote: > > Hi all ? > > I?m trying to run a real-deal vt100 on a serial port connected to Linux (Xubunto 16.04). I?ve got this working *pretty* well, but it looks like the padding values in the default vt100 terminfo entry are not quite correct ? when running the vt100 at 9600 I still get occasional garbage characters on the screen, and 19200 is a hopeless mess. > > I did figure out that if the terminfo contains ?xon?, the non-mandatory padding values in the terminfo are disregarded. Removing this, then disabling xon/xoff on both the vt100 and the tty device actually produces *better* results ? apparently the turnaround on xon/xoff isn?t quite fast enough to keep the terminal from being swamped at higher baud rates, and padding actually works better. But tracking down the source for the default vt100 entry turned up a comment that admits that the padding values there are a total guess. :-( > > So, before I go diving too much further into the terminfo-tweaking-samp, I thought I?d ask if anybody has a good vt100 entry already on hand? (I?d take one for the VT52 as well!) > > thanks much, > ?FritzM. > Post the relevant inittab line for ttyUSB0, assuming you are using a USB to Serial adapter, we can troubleshoot Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 20:08:17 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 21:08:17 -0400 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Sep 4, 2016 9:03 PM, "william degnan" wrote: > > > On Sep 4, 2016 8:10 PM, "Fritz Mueller" wrote: > > > > Hi all ? > > > > I?m trying to run a real-deal vt100 on a serial port connected to Linux (Xubunto 16.04). I?ve got this working *pretty* well, but it looks like the padding values in the default vt100 terminfo entry are not quite correct ? when running the vt100 at 9600 I still get occasional garbage characters on the screen, and 19200 is a hopeless mess. > > > > I did figure out that if the terminfo contains ?xon?, the non-mandatory padding values in the terminfo are disregarded. Removing this, then disabling xon/xoff on both the vt100 and the tty device actually produces *better* results ? apparently the turnaround on xon/xoff isn?t quite fast enough to keep the terminal from being swamped at higher baud rates, and padding actually works better. But tracking down the source for the default vt100 entry turned up a comment that admits that the padding values there are a total guess. :-( > > > > So, before I go diving too much further into the terminfo-tweaking-samp, I thought I?d ask if anybody has a good vt100 entry already on hand? (I?d take one for the VT52 as well!) > > > > thanks much, > > ?FritzM. > > Even better, I found this post, this is my how to attach a vt100 to a VAX 4000, you can apply to most any case http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=618 Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From chd at chdickman.com Sun Sep 4 20:24:24 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 21:24:24 -0400 Subject: RQDX3 as secondary MSCP controller In-Reply-To: <20160828221925.GA11565@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20160828221925.GA11565@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark, On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 6:19 PM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > > The difficulty I am having is I would like to configure the system with > both MSCP controller cards installed, so I can boot from either SCSI or > floppy, preferably with the SCSI still starting at DU0 so my BSD2.11 CFs > remain portable to my other system. > I have the same board configuration but with the quad wide KDJ11 processor and it works fine. So it may be something about the processor and ROM instead of the RQDX3. > > Another oddness I noted was that with my original RQDX3 config, if I > plug the M7516 ethernet card in, that breaks booting from floppy. > This shouldn't happen if the CSR addresses don't conflict. Could it be something with the backplane? -chuck From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Sep 4 21:12:48 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 19:12:48 -0700 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <95152A61-930D-4D48-9858-59378432202A@fritzm.org> > On Sep 4, 2016, at 6:08 PM, william degnan wrote: > > Even better, I found this post, this is my how to attach a vt100 to a VAX > 4000, you can apply to most any case Hi Bill, Thanks for you help! I will say that I have the getty running fine, baud rate, serial format, etc. all okay. Works just fine at 1200 baud and below. At higher baud rates, it seems like the vt100 is dropping some characters or bits after certain escape sequences, even with xon/xoff flow control enabled, so I?m *pretty* sure the issue is just with the padding values in the vt100 terminfo spec? To answer your question, though: since this is Ubuntu 16.04, systemd based, it runs agetty, and has no inittab. The sorta equivalent under systemd is serial-getty at .service, which on my system looks like what is posted below. I?ve also posted the effective terminfo (from infocmp) below that. cheers, ?FritzM. ---------------- snip ----------------------------------------------------- # This file is part of systemd. # # systemd is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it # under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License as published by # the Free Software Foundation; either version 2.1 of the License, or # (at your option) any later version. [Unit] Description=Serial Getty on %I Documentation=man:agetty(8) man:systemd-getty-generator(8) Documentation=http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/serial-console.html BindsTo=dev-%i.device After=dev-%i.device systemd-user-sessions.service plymouth-quit-wait.service After=rc-local.service # If additional gettys are spawned during boot then we should make # sure that this is synchronized before getty.target, even though # getty.target didn't actually pull it in. Before=getty.target IgnoreOnIsolate=yes [Service] Environment=TERM=vt100 ExecStart=-/sbin/agetty --keep-baud 115200,38400,19200,9600,4800,1200 %I $TERM Type=idle Restart=always UtmpIdentifier=%I TTYPath=/dev/%I TTYReset=yes TTYVHangup=yes KillMode=process IgnoreSIGPIPE=no SendSIGHUP=yes [Install] WantedBy=getty.target ---------------- snip ----------------------------------------------------- # Reconstructed via infocmp from file: /lib/terminfo/v/vt100 vt100|vt100-am|dec vt100 (w/advanced video), am, mc5i, msgr, xenl, xon, cols#80, it#8, lines#24, vt#3, acsc=``aaffggjjkkllmmnnooppqqrrssttuuvvwwxxyyzz{{||}}~~, bel=^G, blink=\E[5m$<2>, bold=\E[1m$<2>, clear=\E[H\E[J$<50>, cr=^M, csr=\E[%i%p1%d;%p2%dr, cub=\E[%p1%dD, cub1=^H, cud=\E[%p1%dB, cud1=^J, cuf=\E[%p1%dC, cuf1=\E[C$<2>, cup=\E[%i%p1%d;%p2%dH$<5>, cuu=\E[%p1%dA, cuu1=\E[A$<2>, ed=\E[J$<50>, el=\E[K$<3>, el1=\E[1K$<3>, enacs=\E(B\E)0, home=\E[H, ht=^I, hts=\EH, ind=^J, ka1=\EOq, ka3=\EOs, kb2=\EOr, kbs=^H, kc1=\EOp, kc3=\EOn, kcub1=\EOD, kcud1=\EOB, kcuf1=\EOC, kcuu1=\EOA, kent=\EOM, kf0=\EOy, kf1=\EOP, kf10=\EOx, kf2=\EOQ, kf3=\EOR, kf4=\EOS, kf5=\EOt, kf6=\EOu, kf7=\EOv, kf8=\EOl, kf9=\EOw, lf1=pf1, lf2=pf2, lf3=pf3, lf4=pf4, mc0=\E[0i, mc4=\E[4i, mc5=\E[5i, rc=\E8, rev=\E[7m$<2>, ri=\EM$<5>, rmacs=^O, rmam=\E[?7l, rmkx=\E[?1l\E>, rmso=\E[m$<2>, rmul=\E[m$<2>, rs2=\E>\E[?3l\E[?4l\E[?5l\E[?7h\E[?8h, sc=\E7, sgr=\E[0%?%p1%p6%|%t;1%;%?%p2%t;4%;%?%p1%p3%|%t;7%;%?%p4%t;5%;m%?%p9%t\016%e\017%;$<2>, sgr0=\E[m\017$<2>, smacs=^N, smam=\E[?7h, smkx=\E[?1h\E=, smso=\E[7m$<2>, smul=\E[4m$<2>, tbc=\E[3g, From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 23:39:52 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 23:39:52 -0500 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 Message-ID: Just thought I'd share with you all one of my pet projects for the past few years. I have written an HP-35 and HP-45 simulator for the PDP-8, which uses the original microcode from these calculators. Thus, it is just as accurate as the original calculators, I would believe. Not really sure why I decided to do this, but I suppose I enjoy both HP calculators and PDP-8 programming. I guess it's nice to have a scientific calculator at one's disposal too while sitting in front of a PDP-8, too. It also shows that something like this could've existed back in the early 1970s if one were so inclined to do it. Perhaps it's also a bit of homage to the Expensive Desk Calculator for the TX-0 and PDP-1. Anyways, you can grab the code from here: https://github.com/drovak/hpcalcpdp8 The HP-45 support is new as of the past couple of days; I went ahead and through in a help function to explain the keys. Toggle between 4XXX and 0XXX on the switch register to toggle between HP-45 and HP-35 modes, respectively. Feel free to give feedback; I've tested it fairly extensively in SimH with no major issues other than no error indication on the HP-35. I have a debug mode which prints each register every instruction cycle, but I haven't used it too much in recent times; I went ahead and IFDEF'ed it as it also reads from the switch register. OS/8 support will come soon, as that shouldn't be challenging. You need 8k to run this, though I also uploaded my original hp35pdp8.pal code which runs in 4k. It lacks the help function (and obviously the HP-45 simulator), but otherwise, works pretty much the same. Big thanks to Eric Smith for his 'nonpareil' work which inspired much of the simulator. Kyle From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 15:04:56 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 16:04:56 -0400 Subject: DEC Indicator Panels pag Message-ID: > > On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > > So, I've been working for a while on a page about DEC indicator panels > (the > > standardized 36x4 light arrays which go into a 19" rack, with an inlay to > > customize it to a particular device). It's online now, here: > > > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > > > > Does anyone happen to have a good image of an RK08 panel, or an RF11, > which I > > can use here? > > > > Even better, does anyone know of, or have images of, panels which are not > > listed here? (I am not including the unknown 'RK' panel in the RSTS > document, > > which will be the subject of a separate message.) > > > > Thanks! > > > > Noel > How about PDP-9 panels? TC02, 18-bit DECtape controller TC59, 18-bit Magnetic Tape controller -- Michael Thompson From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Sep 5 00:43:19 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2016 22:43:19 -0700 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> > On Sep 4, 2016, at 21:39, Kyle Owen wrote: > > Just thought I'd share with you all one of my pet projects for the past few > years. I have written an HP-35 and HP-45 simulator for the PDP-8, which > uses the original microcode from these calculators. Thus, it is just as > accurate as the original calculators, I would believe. That is silly, fantastic, absurd, and wonderful. All at the same time. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Mon Sep 5 01:15:59 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 02:15:59 -0400 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual =?UTF-8?Q?vt=31=30=30=3F?= In-Reply-To: <95152A61-930D-4D48-9858-59378432202A@fritzm.org> References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> <95152A61-930D-4D48-9858-59378432202A@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <00a9f6b13b9ee8d8d60bbf7b5dd537bc@triadic.us> Are you using a USB to serial converter? I've had tons of issues doing this on cheap converters. The diablo cable branded ones seems to work well. From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Mon Sep 5 01:15:59 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 02:15:59 -0400 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual =?UTF-8?Q?vt=31=30=30=3F?= In-Reply-To: <95152A61-930D-4D48-9858-59378432202A@fritzm.org> References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> <95152A61-930D-4D48-9858-59378432202A@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <00a9f6b13b9ee8d8d60bbf7b5dd537bc@triadic.us> Are you using a USB to serial converter? I've had tons of issues doing this on cheap converters. The diablo cable branded ones seems to work well. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Sep 5 02:24:06 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 08:24:06 +0100 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 05/09/2016 01:10, "Fritz Mueller" wrote: > Hi all ? > > I?m trying to run a real-deal vt100 on a serial port connected to Linux > (Xubunto 16.04). I?ve got this working *pretty* well, but it looks like the > padding values in the default vt100 terminfo entry are not quite correct ? > when running the vt100 at 9600 I still get occasional garbage characters on > the screen, and 19200 is a hopeless mess. > > I did figure out that if the terminfo contains ?xon?, the non-mandatory > padding values in the terminfo are disregarded. Removing this, then disabling > xon/xoff on both the vt100 and the tty device actually produces *better* > results ? apparently the turnaround on xon/xoff isn?t quite fast enough to > keep the terminal from being swamped at higher baud rates, and padding > actually works better. But tracking down the source for the default vt100 > entry turned up a comment that admits that the padding values there are a > total guess. :-( > > So, before I go diving too much further into the terminfo-tweaking-samp, I > thought I?d ask if anybody has a good vt100 entry already on hand? (I?d take > one for the VT52 as well!) Interesting. I'm running a genuine VT100 from a home-made serial port (MAX3232 based) on a Beaglebone Black running Debian Jessie as part of my DECbox project and it's rock solid at 9600 baud, even with smooth scroll. I'd never given the termcap entry a moment's thought. This may or may not help, but when talking serially to a ZX Spectrum (I know, but it's still RS232 comms) I get consistent results with a genuine serial port on a laptop but with a cheap chinese USB-serial converter it just doesn't work and I put this down to incorrect grounding. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Sep 5 03:14:07 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 10:14:07 +0200 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Sep 04, 2016 at 10:43:19PM -0700, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > On Sep 4, 2016, at 21:39, Kyle Owen wrote: > > > > Just thought I'd share with you all one of my pet projects for the past few > > years. I have written an HP-35 and HP-45 simulator for the PDP-8, which > > uses the original microcode from these calculators. Thus, it is just as > > accurate as the original calculators, I would believe. > > That is silly, fantastic, absurd, and wonderful. All at the same time. Agreed :) Period correct programming. /P From davidpopovich at rogers.com Mon Sep 5 07:31:05 2016 From: davidpopovich at rogers.com (Davidpopovich) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 08:31:05 -0400 Subject: Interact Model One Software Message-ID: Did you ever get your interact running? I can help you with cassettes if you need. There is also a way to use a wav file and play through an MP3 to cassette adapter Let me know Sent from my iPhone From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 08:13:29 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 15:13:29 +0200 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4 September 2016 at 08:08, wrote: > Episode 5, still does not boot, but we are starting to follow long why: > https://youtu.be/Wr7vDZpniNIr I know I'm a total lightweight and a board-swapper, but the depth and the skills involved in this troubleshooting -- let alone the actual tools -- are leaving me in awe. Compelling viewing! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 5 10:55:55 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 08:55:55 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is why Alto restoration with one set of boards is extremely difficult. The machine wasn't designed to be serviced. Almost everything has to work before you can do anything, and there is a very high probability that in the process of bringing it up you will corrupt the disk pack. Hopefully the ethernet bridge boards will come through soon so you can try to etherboot a diagnostic once you stop getting parity errors. The ECC memory subsystem is fairly complicated so it wouldn't surprise me there is a problem with it. You might try reducing the number of installed memory boards. If you can get it to the point where it hits the disk it should sequentially read a bunch of tracks, seek to zero, then start to boot which changes the pitch of the 5v switching supply. You can tell a lot about what's going on just by the sound of the power supply. If the power supply isn't chirping the machine isn't doing much. On 9/3/16 11:08 PM, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: > Episode 5, still does not boot, but we are starting to follow long why: > https://youtu.be/Wr7vDZpniNIr > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Sep 5 10:52:15 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 16:52:15 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 04 Sep 2016 19:12:48 -0700" <95152A61-930D-4D48-9858-59378432202A@fritzm.org> References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <01Q4LK03BIMY0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Fritz Mueller wrote: > > > On Sep 4, 2016, at 6:08 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > > Even better, I found this post, this is my how to attach a vt100 to a VAX > > 4000, you can apply to most any case > > > Hi Bill, > > Thanks for you help! > > I will say that I have the getty running fine, baud rate, serial format, etc. > all okay. Works just fine at 1200 baud and below. At higher baud rates, it > seems like the vt100 is dropping some characters or bits after certain > escape sequences, even with xon/xoff flow control enabled, so I?m *pretty* > sure the issue is just with the padding values in the vt100 terminfo spec? > I've got a VT102 Video Terminal User Guide (EK-VT102-UG-003) which contains a table of fill characters required for different control codes / escape sequences / display characters at each possible baud rate. Here's what it lists for 19200 baud: 324 IND, LF, NEL, RI (Smooth Scroll) 191 DECCOLM 190 DECALN 144 ED (132 Col) 104 ED (80 Col) 32 IND, LF, NEL, RI (Jump Scroll) 6 EL (132 Col) 4 EL (80 Col) 7 DECINLM 2 All others except RIS and DECTST The appendix also seems to hint that the VT100 has different requirements so this may not be very useful to you but it might give you a rough idea. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Sep 5 11:05:55 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 10:05:55 -0600 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> Message-ID: The usual answer, from back in the day, was to make sure hardware flow control was on and working at higher speeds. If you don't have that, you are going to lose > 9600 baud. I spent way too much time pulling fat cable to enable this after we'd wired the building with 3-wire cable for the VT52's and cute 'headphone' plug-in jacks back in my high school days... Warner On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 05/09/2016 01:10, "Fritz Mueller" wrote: > >> Hi all ? >> >> I?m trying to run a real-deal vt100 on a serial port connected to Linux >> (Xubunto 16.04). I?ve got this working *pretty* well, but it looks like the >> padding values in the default vt100 terminfo entry are not quite correct ? >> when running the vt100 at 9600 I still get occasional garbage characters on >> the screen, and 19200 is a hopeless mess. >> >> I did figure out that if the terminfo contains ?xon?, the non-mandatory >> padding values in the terminfo are disregarded. Removing this, then disabling >> xon/xoff on both the vt100 and the tty device actually produces *better* >> results ? apparently the turnaround on xon/xoff isn?t quite fast enough to >> keep the terminal from being swamped at higher baud rates, and padding >> actually works better. But tracking down the source for the default vt100 >> entry turned up a comment that admits that the padding values there are a >> total guess. :-( >> >> So, before I go diving too much further into the terminfo-tweaking-samp, I >> thought I?d ask if anybody has a good vt100 entry already on hand? (I?d take >> one for the VT52 as well!) > > Interesting. I'm running a genuine VT100 from a home-made serial port > (MAX3232 based) on a Beaglebone Black running Debian Jessie as part of my > DECbox project and it's rock solid at 9600 baud, even with smooth scroll. > I'd never given the termcap entry a moment's thought. > > This may or may not help, but when talking serially to a ZX Spectrum (I > know, but it's still RS232 comms) I get consistent results with a genuine > serial port on a laptop but with a cheap chinese USB-serial converter it > just doesn't work and I put this down to incorrect grounding. > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 11:29:28 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 12:29:28 -0400 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> <95152A61-930D-4D48-9858-59378432202A@fritzm.org> <01Q4LK03BIMY0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2016 12:05 PM, "Peter Coghlan" wrote: > > Fritz Mueller wrote: > > > > > On Sep 4, 2016, at 6:08 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > > > > Even better, I found this post, this is my how to attach a vt100 to a VAX > > > 4000, you can apply to most any case > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > Thanks for you help! > > > > I will say that I have the getty running fine, baud rate, serial format, etc. > > all okay. Works just fine at 1200 baud and below. At higher baud rates, it > > seems like the vt100 is dropping some characters or bits after certain > > escape sequences, even with xon/xoff flow control enabled, so I?m *pretty* > > sure the issue is just with the padding values in the vt100 terminfo spec? > > > > I've got a VT102 Video Terminal User Guide (EK-VT102-UG-003) which contains > a table of fill characters required for different control codes / escape > sequences / display characters at each possible baud rate. Here's what it > lists for 19200 baud: > > 324 IND, LF, NEL, RI (Smooth Scroll) > 191 DECCOLM > 190 DECALN > 144 ED (132 Col) > 104 ED (80 Col) > 32 IND, LF, NEL, RI (Jump Scroll) > 6 EL (132 Col) > 4 EL (80 Col) > 7 DECINLM > 2 All others except RIS and DECTST > > The appendix also seems to hint that the VT100 has different requirements so > this may not be very useful to you but it might give you a rough idea. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. The link I provided has exactly what keystrokes and settings to use for 8/n/1 and 19200, plus a link to the vt100 manual. VT102 is not the same. B From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 11:30:45 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 09:30:45 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/5/16 8:55 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > This is why Alto restoration with one set of boards is extremely difficult. > The machine wasn't designed to be serviced. Almost everything has to work > before you can do anything, and there is a very high probability that in the > process of bringing it up you will corrupt the disk pack. Hopefully the ethernet > bridge boards will come through soon so you can try to etherboot a diagnostic > once you stop getting parity errors. The ECC memory subsystem is fairly complicated > so it wouldn't surprise me there is a problem with it. You might try reducing the > number of installed memory boards. At the LCM, I used an Apple II to test out the Alto's memory -- the Alto II XM uses 4116 RAM chips. I swapped in a row at a time and wrote a little BASIC program to test for obvious errors. This was time-consuming, but eliminated the obviously bad chips, which helped immensely. > If you can get it to the point where it hits the > disk it should sequentially read a bunch of tracks, seek to zero, then start to boot > which changes the pitch of the 5v switching supply. You can tell a lot about what's > going on just by the sound of the power supply. If the power supply isn't chirping > the machine isn't doing much. The (faint) noise patterns on the screen will also vary depending on what it's doing... (at least on our machines... maybe others have better shielding :)). - Josh > > On 9/3/16 11:08 PM, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: >> Episode 5, still does not boot, but we are starting to follow long why: >> https://youtu.be/Wr7vDZpniNIr >> > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Sep 5 11:30:48 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 17:30:48 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 05 Sep 2016 10:05:55 -0600" References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <01Q4LL0V4WMU0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> > > The usual answer, from back in the day, was to make sure hardware flow > control was on and working at higher speeds. If you don't have that, > you are going to lose > 9600 baud. I spent way too much time pulling > fat cable to enable this after we'd wired the building with 3-wire > cable for the VT52's and cute 'headphone' plug-in jacks back in my > high school days... > Generally, DEC didn't have hardware flow control at that time because it was not in the standard. I'm pretty sure there was no hardware flow control available on the VT100. It used XON/XOFF. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Sep 5 12:44:00 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 11:44:00 -0600 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <01Q4LL0V4WMU0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> <01Q4LL0V4WMU0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> >> The usual answer, from back in the day, was to make sure hardware flow >> control was on and working at higher speeds. If you don't have that, >> you are going to lose > 9600 baud. I spent way too much time pulling >> fat cable to enable this after we'd wired the building with 3-wire >> cable for the VT52's and cute 'headphone' plug-in jacks back in my >> high school days... >> > > Generally, DEC didn't have hardware flow control at that time because it was > not in the standard. I'm pretty sure there was no hardware flow control > available on the VT100. It used XON/XOFF. I may be misremembering when we did this: with the VT100, VT102 or VT220's. Warner From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 13:06:52 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 13:06:52 -0500 Subject: Apple IIGS on epay - local pickup in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone want this? Less than 4 his remaining. Actually I'd love to have someone win it for me and sell it to me at VCFMW, but I've never arranged such a thing so I don't know what to estimate the cost to me would be. (Plus it probably won't stay at $49 for long.) I'd bid on it myself and then worry about getting it to me, but they explicitly day they don't accept third-party shippers. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 13:21:27 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 11:21:27 -0700 Subject: Apple IIGS on epay - local pickup in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2016 11:07 AM, "Eric Christopherson" wrote: > > Anyone want this? Less than 4 his remaining. > > Actually I'd love to have someone win it for me and sell it to me at VCFMW, > but I've never arranged such a thing so I don't know what to estimate the > cost to me would be. (Plus it probably won't stay at $49 for long.) I'd bid > on it myself and then worry about getting it to me, but they explicitly day > they don't accept third-party shippers. Item 401179185305 at Seattle Goodwill? Where are you located? If you bid and won you could probably get someone on the list to pick it up for you and ship it to you after you paid for the item and the shipping. -Glen From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 13:59:50 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 20:59:50 +0200 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. Message-ID: For some time I have slowly been working on restoring our PDP-8 to operating condition. Here are some notes on the progress: http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-8 It is sort of working now after reforming capacitors in the PSU, adjusting memory currents and replacing a 2N3639 in a MA, MB, PC (R211) board. But bit seven is still showing a 0 when trying to set it. I found an old note that I wrote somewhere in 1990 that indicated the same problem was present then as well so it hasn't happen lately. I have now concluded that the fault is in the core memory module itself. The sense winding is broken on bit plane 7. So what are my options? What are the chances that a repair is successful? It looks really complex to take it appart and get to to layer seven. Then to find the broken wire, somehow replace it and splice it together with the rest of the sense winding... Not an everyday job. Does anyone have a known good spare module? I have some MM15 modules for PDP-15 to trade with! Could a MM15 module be adapted to be used instead? It is completely different foot print and it is a three wire stack. The Russian stacks sold on Ebay? But what guarantees are that those work at all and can be adapted... Probably other memory currents and cycle time? Some other technology that can be used to make up for the missing bit plane. But what technology and how. With as little intrusion in the machine. I don't really want to replace the entire memory system with a battery backed SRAM... Any ideas, thoughts or a working PDP-8 core memory module is highly sought for! /Mattis From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 14:36:15 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 14:36:15 -0500 Subject: Apple IIGS on epay - local pickup in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2016 1:21 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > On Sep 5, 2016 11:07 AM, "Eric Christopherson" > wrote: > > > > Anyone want this? Less than 4 his remaining. > > > > Actually I'd love to have someone win it for me and sell it to me at > VCFMW, > > but I've never arranged such a thing so I don't know what to estimate the > > cost to me would be. (Plus it probably won't stay at $49 for long.) I'd > bid > > on it myself and then worry about getting it to me, but they explicitly > day > > they don't accept third-party shippers. > > Item 401179185305 at Seattle Goodwill? Where are you located? Yes, that's the one. Sorry, just forgot to paste the link - - wasn't trying to keep others from finding it. http://m.ebay.com/itm/401179185305?_mwBanner=1 > > If you bid and won you could probably get someone on the list to pick it up > for you and ship it to you after you paid for the item and the shipping. > > -Glen From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Sep 5 15:05:30 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 21:05:30 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 05 Sep 2016 11:44:00 -0600" References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> <01Q4LL0V4WMU0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01Q4LTGLP7ME0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Warner Losh wrote: >On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >>> >>> The usual answer, from back in the day, was to make sure hardware flow >>> control was on and working at higher speeds. If you don't have that, >>> you are going to lose > 9600 baud. I spent way too much time pulling >>> fat cable to enable this after we'd wired the building with 3-wire >>> cable for the VT52's and cute 'headphone' plug-in jacks back in my >>> high school days... >>> >> >> Generally, DEC didn't have hardware flow control at that time because it was >> not in the standard. I'm pretty sure there was no hardware flow control >> available on the VT100. It used XON/XOFF. > > I may be misremembering when we did this: with the VT100, VT102 or VT220's. > I may be misremembering too but my feeling is that it was much later on than that even when DEC only reluctantly began to offer RTS/CTS hardware flow control on terminal servers in order to support "high speed" async modems. As far as I recall, big bunches of serial ports on a VAX etc had gone away in favour of network attached terminal servers before that time and I don't think the directly attached serial ports ever provided hardware flow control. They could optionally provide "modem control" though, in that they could signal a modem to hang up and the modem could signal the machine that a connection had been established or gone away. I had a look in the VT102 guide and it explicitly says that there are only three ways of avoiding buffer overruns - XON/XOFF, fill characters and using a lower speed. On the other hand, it also says that the VT102 printer port can respond to DSR being dropped by stopping sending characters to it. It suggests that the printer can drop DTR when it's buffers are full and this should be wired to DSR on the terminal printer port so there is hardware flow control available there at least. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Sep 5 16:21:27 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 16:21:27 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57CDE1D7.3020605@pico-systems.com> On 09/05/2016 01:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > I have now concluded that the fault is in the core memory module itself. > The sense winding is broken on bit plane 7. > > Have you actually ohmed out the sense/inhibit wire? There were some very old memories that had some kind of metallurgical problem where the wires corroded away, but not heard of DEC cores being prone to that. 3D core stacks have combined sense/inhibit wires, and there is usually a pulse transformer between the sense amp/inhibit driver and the wire itself. Also, if the bit 7 inhibit driver has a blown transistor, it could cause the sense amp to be shunted or overloaded. I'd check all the associated sense/inhibit circuitry before assuming it is the plane. (Of course, you may have already done all this by swapping boards, etc.) A blown inhibit driver could take out the pulse transformer, too. Jon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 16:48:43 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 16:48:43 -0500 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <00d001d20562$97a8c640$c6fa52c0$@gmail.com> References: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> <00d001d20562$97a8c640$c6fa52c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57CDE83B.3050101@gmail.com> On 09/02/2016 04:40 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > Jules, > Where in the world are these... I'm up in Bemidji, MN I've been here almost ten years and not seen any DEC stuff until those boards came in a few weeks ago. These latest ones were supposedly turned in at the recycler by a different person, which makes it quite strange. I think I'll see about getting the M8014, M8012, M8013 and M8061 boards tomorrow. The rest can probably go for scrap. cheers Jules From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 16:51:16 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 16:51:16 -0500 Subject: Apple IIGS on epay - local pickup in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2016 2:36 PM, "Eric Christopherson" wrote: > > On Sep 5, 2016 1:21 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > > > On Sep 5, 2016 11:07 AM, "Eric Christopherson" < echristopherson at gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > Anyone want this? Less than 4 his remaining. > > > > > > Actually I'd love to have someone win it for me and sell it to me at > > VCFMW, > > > but I've never arranged such a thing so I don't know what to estimate the > > > cost to me would be. (Plus it probably won't stay at $49 for long.) I'd > > bid > > > on it myself and then worry about getting it to me, but they explicitly > > day > > > they don't accept third-party shippers. > > > > Item 401179185305 at Seattle Goodwill? Where are you located? > > Yes, that's the one. Sorry, just forgot to paste the link - - wasn't trying to keep others from finding it. > > http://m.ebay.com/itm/401179185305?_mwBanner=1 > > > > > If you bid and won you could probably get someone on the list to pick it up > > for you and ship it to you after you paid for the item and the shipping. > > > > -Glen I didn't manage to win it, but Seattle Goodwill did tell me they would be fine with having someone pick it up for me. It only doubled in price... Pity. From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 17:26:27 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 00:26:27 +0200 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: <57CDE1D7.3020605@pico-systems.com> References: <57CDE1D7.3020605@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: m?ndag 5 september 2016 skrev Jon Elson : > On 09/05/2016 01:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> >> I have now concluded that the fault is in the core memory module itself. >> The sense winding is broken on bit plane 7. >> >> >> Have you actually ohmed out the sense/inhibit wire? Yes. I have measured at at the tabs where the red arrow points in the image below: http://i.imgur.com/x5VVh2F.jpg Unfortunately I am pretty sure that this will rule out pulse transformers or whatever. /Mattis From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Sep 5 17:28:15 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 23:28:15 +0100 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <57CDE83B.3050101@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 05/09/2016 22:48, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > On 09/02/2016 04:40 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> Jules, >> Where in the world are these... > > I'm up in Bemidji, MN > > I've been here almost ten years and not seen any DEC stuff until those > boards came in a few weeks ago. These latest ones were supposedly turned in > at the recycler by a different person, which makes it quite strange. > > I think I'll see about getting the M8014, M8012, M8013 and M8061 boards > tomorrow. The rest can probably go for scrap. I wonder how much shipping would be for the VT100 board... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Sep 5 17:39:18 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 17:39:18 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: References: <57CDE1D7.3020605@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57CDF416.4080408@pico-systems.com> On 09/05/2016 05:26 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > m?ndag 5 september 2016 skrev Jon Elson : > >> On 09/05/2016 01:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >>> I have now concluded that the fault is in the core memory module itself. >>> The sense winding is broken on bit plane 7. >>> >>> >>> Have you actually ohmed out the sense/inhibit wire? > > Yes. I have measured at at the tabs where the red arrow points in the image > below: > > http://i.imgur.com/x5VVh2F.jpg > > Unfortunately I am pretty sure that this will rule out pulse transformers > or whatever. > > Ugh! That could be messy. DEC later went to planar memories, for obvious reasons. Yes, these built-up core stacks could be hard just to open up to get to a single plane. IBM, CDC and others all made them like this in the 60's before realizing how hard that made the job of testing and repairing. (I guess the shrinking of the cores is what really made the planar core boards practical.) Well, unless there is a spare plane in the stack, you can't break it too much more than it is broken now! But, really, if one of the wires has failed within the plane, it could be just about impossible to fix. If it is a break outside of the core matrix, that wouldn't be hard to fix, unless the wires have become brittle over time, in which case any manipulation would just cause more damage. GOOD LUCK! Jon Jon From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 17:46:52 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 00:46:52 +0200 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: <57CDE1D7.3020605@pico-systems.com> References: <57CDE1D7.3020605@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: m?ndag 5 september 2016 skrev Jon Elson : > On 09/05/2016 01:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> >> I have now concluded that the fault is in the core memory module itself. >> The sense winding is broken on bit plane 7. >> >> >> Have you actually ohmed out the sense/inhibit wire? > This is by the way a four wire stack. Separate sense and inhibit wire. Come to think of it, since the inhibit wire is OK, would it be possible to arrange it as a three wire stack somehow. Change the sense amp and inhibit drivers so that they use the same wire? Maybe Brent can come in with some advice if this is possible or just stupid. I promise to read his excellent article on core memories once again tomorrow when I am less tired to see If I can figure something out... From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Sep 5 18:36:22 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 18:36:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: References: <57CDE1D7.3020605@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57CE0176.1020504@pico-systems.com> On 09/05/2016 05:46 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > m?ndag 5 september 2016 skrev Jon Elson : > >> On 09/05/2016 01:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >>> I have now concluded that the fault is in the core memory module itself. >>> The sense winding is broken on bit plane 7. >>> >>> >>> Have you actually ohmed out the sense/inhibit wire? > This is by the way a four wire stack. Separate sense and inhibit wire. OH! I didn't know any PDP-8 had 4-wire planes. Very interesting. Hmmm, you could rig a pulse transformer to the inhibit wire to bring signals over to the sense amp. > Come to think of it, since the inhibit wire is OK, would it be possible to > arrange it as a three wire stack somehow. Change the sense amp and inhibit > drivers so that they use the same wire? Ah, you already thought of that. Well, it SHOULD be possible. You'd probably put a resistor in series with the pulse transformer so that all the select current went through the inhibit wire. Then, the only problem would be that the sense amp gets hit with a big pulse during the writeback. As long as the sense amp recovers from the overload before the next read cycle, it ought to work. Some 4-wire planes were set up so the polarity of half the sense wires were opposite to the inhibit, so the coupled inhibit current balanced out to zero in the sense winding. Any mid-sized 1:1 pulse transformer should do the coupling, the currents might be pretty high, but the duration isn't very long. (Minor nit, the inhibit wires only get pulsed one direction, so you might need a resistive path across the secondary to discharge the flux build up so it doesn't saturate.) > Maybe Brent can come in with some advice if this is possible or just > stupid. It is NOT stupid, I think it could really work! Jon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 5 21:28:09 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 19:28:09 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: <57CE0176.1020504@pico-systems.com> References: <57CDE1D7.3020605@pico-systems.com> <57CE0176.1020504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2016-Sep-05, at 4:36 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 09/05/2016 05:46 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> m?ndag 5 september 2016 skrev Jon Elson : >> >>> On 09/05/2016 01:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>> >>>> I have now concluded that the fault is in the core memory module itself. >>>> The sense winding is broken on bit plane 7. >>>> >>>> >>>> Have you actually ohmed out the sense/inhibit wire? >> This is by the way a four wire stack. Separate sense and inhibit wire. > OH! I didn't know any PDP-8 had 4-wire planes. Very interesting. Hmmm, you could rig a pulse transformer to the inhibit wire to bring signals over to the sense amp. >> Come to think of it, since the inhibit wire is OK, would it be possible to >> arrange it as a three wire stack somehow. Change the sense amp and inhibit >> drivers so that they use the same wire? > Ah, you already thought of that. Well, it SHOULD be possible. You'd probably put a resistor in series with the pulse transformer so that all the select current went through the inhibit wire. Then, the only problem would be that the sense amp gets hit with a big pulse during the writeback. As long as the sense amp recovers from the overload before the next read cycle, it ought to work. Some 4-wire planes were set up so the polarity of half the sense wires were opposite to the inhibit, so the coupled inhibit current balanced out to zero in the sense winding. Any mid-sized 1:1 pulse transformer should do the coupling, the currents might be pretty high, but the duration isn't very long. (Minor nit, the inhibit wires only get pulsed one direction, so you might need a resistive path across the secondary to discharge the flux build up so it doesn't saturate.) >> Maybe Brent can come in with some advice if this is possible or just >> stupid. > It is NOT stupid, I think it could really work! I'd tend to be more pessimistic about this working. There are different requirements in winding a wire for purposes of inhibit and sense. In the 3-wire arrangement the winding of the combined wire has to meet both sets of requirements. Specifically, for this case, in a 4-wire mem, where the inhibit wire was woven just for the purposes of inhibit, I don't anticipate it's going to have the noise cancellation topology needed to function as the sense wire. Sense wires were woven as a floating loop feeding a differential amplifier. The loop is kept quite closed or otherwise woven in a very balanced manner so that the magnetic fields from the large select currents (and other influences) will cancel out or be rejected as common-mode influence at the differential amp inputs. The select current magnetic fields trigger the magnetic field reversal of the core, you want to sense the latter distinct from the former. Unless you have circuitry with the wherewithal to distinguish those induced currents in the sense wire in time (delay of the core field reversal from the select field), you otherwise have to minimise the influence of the select current fields on the sense wire. If you look at the diagrams in my article you can see the sorts of differences in weaving topologies between 3 & 4 wire arrangements, as well as examples of the tortured topologies resorted to to balance the sense loop. In the 3-wire example there you can see how the S/I wire was split in half with a special resistor network at one end to allow inhibit current flow while at the same time configuring it as a balanced loop for the sense function. My article certainly isn't the last word on the variety of implementations, I believe there were 4-wire designs with sense wires parallel to select wires as in the 3-wire designs for example, so you never know until you examine the specifics at hand, but I think it unlikely you'd have much success getting the inhibit wire to function for sense, not without going to as much trouble messing with the stack as if you tried to fix the sense wire. If the sense wire is open I'd guess there's a good chance it's at one of the end points where it's soldered to a terminal or at an existing splice from manufacture time and might be repairable if access could be had. Might the stack have a parity bit array that could be redirected to replace the faulty bit array?, perhaps foregoing the parity checking on that board-set if the parity logic is present. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Sep 5 22:03:38 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 22:03:38 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: References: <57CDE1D7.3020605@pico-systems.com> <57CE0176.1020504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57CE320A.4070104@pico-systems.com> On 09/05/2016 09:28 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I'd tend to be more pessimistic about this working. > > > In the 3-wire example there you can see how the S/I wire was split in half with a special resistor network at one end to allow inhibit current flow > while at the same time configuring it as a balanced loop for the sense function. > > My article certainly isn't the last word on the variety of implementations, I believe there were 4-wire designs with sense wires parallel to > select wires as in the 3-wire designs for example, so you never know until you examine the specifics at hand, > but I think it unlikely you'd have much success getting the inhibit wire to function for sense, not without going to as much trouble > messing with the stack as if you tried to fix the sense wire. Well, older core memories had larger cores, which slowed everything down as well as gave much bigger pulses when a core flipped. That might make this exercise a bit easier. > If the sense wire is open I'd guess there's a good chance it's at one of the end points where it's soldered to a terminal or at an existing splice > from manufacture time and might be repairable if access could be had. But, he has to split the whole stack to at least access the bad plane from one side. Already a pretty daunting exercise. Still, fixing the bad wire, if the break is at an exposed point, would be preferable than re-engineeering the whole sense-inhibit circuitry. If the wire can be fixed, there would be no engineering required. I saw our old IBM 7094 memory, which had a combination of tube and transistor circuitry, and one inhibit (or maybe sense) wire had been burned up by a failed circuit. The cores kept the wire cool, so the only places it opened was where the wire looped around the plane. There were dozens of bits of wire soldered to fix the places where it opened. Sheesh, I sure wouldn't have wanted to be the CE who had to do that repair! Jon From sales at elecplus.com Mon Sep 5 22:31:12 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 22:31:12 -0500 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay Message-ID: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/191960867958 Apparently the buyer backed out, and the entire lot is now available as ONE lot. There is no reserve. Cindy Croxton From js at cimmeri.com Mon Sep 5 22:56:24 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 22:56:24 -0500 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> Message-ID: <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> If there's ever a vote taken up for whether to ban the constant billboarding of ebay ads here, I'm for "ban." People who know how to use ebay do not need help finding things on ebay. On 9/5/2016 10:31 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/191960867958 > > > > Apparently the buyer backed out, and the entire lot is now available as ONE > lot. There is no reserve. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > > > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Sep 5 23:06:45 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 00:06:45 -0400 Subject: COMPUTERS: THEIR IMPACT ON SOCIETY, AFIPS Conference Proceedings, Volume 27, Pa Message-ID: <15c9ca.6bbb68b3.44ff9ad5@aol.com> extra copy no DJ ex lib tight binding unmarked text pages aside from library stamps etc trade or? repy offlist Ed# SMECC www.smecc.org _ COMPUTERS: THEIR IMPACT ON SOCIETY, AFIPS Conference Proceedings, Volume 27, Part 2, 1965 Fall Joint Computer Conference. _ (https://www.amazon.com/COMPUTERS-Conference-Proceedings-Computer-Conference/dp/B000KIFENU/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1473133415&sr=1-4&keywords=c omputers+their+impact+on+society) 1967 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Sep 5 23:22:37 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 21:22:37 -0700 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <71157d94-ece0-d68f-70ff-6af4d6172ea2@jwsss.com> Yes, we do. I had not found this ad and it is in Kansas City, where I have a warehouse. Cindy, I didn't see the 8" floppies though. I also thought this was in Colorado, but see it listed as KC now, though that may only be another auction. This unfortunately isn't up my alley for collecting. thanks jim On 9/5/2016 8:56 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > If there's ever a vote taken up for whether to ban the constant > billboarding of ebay ads here, > I'm for "ban." People who know how to use ebay do not need help > finding things on ebay. From connork at connorsdomain.com Mon Sep 5 23:40:44 2016 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 00:40:44 -0400 Subject: Raised floor to be available for pickup in Sewell, NJ Message-ID: Hi all, as per the subject some raised floor is about to become available. As much as I wanted and was going to grab this flooring myself, I can't. So this is the time for someone else who needs around 500-600 Sq.Ft. of raised flooring to go get it! This flooring is about 8in tall, so its not anything crazy like some of the newer taller stuff. The floor MAY be available, he is not 100% sure yet. The deal is they are selling the building and if the new owners do not want it, it is for grabs but must be picked up in the next 2-3 weeks. I am not sure, but you probably have to grab it all. The floor is located in Sewell, NJ as per the subject. It will be available for low or no cost depending on the interest level... Please contact Mike at: mbrotzman.jhu at gmail.com -Connor Krukosky From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Sep 5 23:49:40 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 23:49:40 -0500 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <20160906044939.GA7727@lonesome.com> On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 10:56:24PM -0500, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > If there's ever a vote taken up for whether to ban the constant billboarding > of ebay ads here, I'm for "ban." I would subscribe to a spin-off list that was merely for buy/sell/trade. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Sep 5 23:51:15 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 23:51:15 -0500 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <57CDE83B.3050101@gmail.com> References: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> <00d001d20562$97a8c640$c6fa52c0$@gmail.com> <57CDE83B.3050101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160906045114.GB7727@lonesome.com> On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 04:48:43PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm up in Bemidji, MN Heh, I was just there a couple of months ago. mcl From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Sep 6 01:38:06 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:38:06 +0200 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <20160906044939.GA7727@lonesome.com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> <20160906044939.GA7727@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20160906063805.GK3629@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 11:49:40PM -0500, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 10:56:24PM -0500, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > If there's ever a vote taken up for whether to ban the constant billboarding > > of ebay ads here, I'm for "ban." > > I would subscribe to a spin-off list that was merely for buy/sell/trade. > > mcl Nooo, no more lists! the cctech/talk split is confusing enough. Anyway, the ebay to signal ratio is really quite low. /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Sep 6 01:46:01 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:46:01 +0200 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <57CDE83B.3050101@gmail.com> References: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> <00d001d20562$97a8c640$c6fa52c0$@gmail.com> <57CDE83B.3050101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160906064600.GL3629@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 04:48:43PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I think I'll see about getting the M8014, M8012, M8013 and M8061 boards > tomorrow. How much do you pay for these? Do you intend to pass them on? Regards, Pontus. From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Sep 6 03:43:51 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 01:43:51 -0700 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <01Q4LK03BIMY0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> <01Q4LK03BIMY0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Hi all, thanks for the help/advice! Peter, the table you posted comes closest to what I was originally looking for. I think I will end up just doing some testing to identify the troublesome control sequence and find out how much padding is needed in each case. I?ll post back the numbers I find (thought it may be a little bit before I get back to this particular project). I do not think the VT100 supports hardware flow control. Interesting the comments on the USB serial converters ? I am using a Keytronics (now Tripp-Lite) USA-19H, and I think these are generally well regarded? But thinking on it, I bet USB has something to do with it here ? perhaps buffer latency through the USB drivers is keeping software flow-control (xon/xoff) from functioning effectively at higher baud rates, which is another reason I think proper padding values might be a good alternative. Another idea that might work would be to take an FPGA proto board that I have and hack up a better serial port ? something with some buffering and xon/xoff logic sitting downstream of the USB interface. cheers, ?FritzM. From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 04:11:30 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:11:30 +0200 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: References: <57CDE1D7.3020605@pico-systems.com> <57CE0176.1020504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > > I'd tend to be more pessimistic about this working. > > There are different requirements in winding a wire for purposes of inhibit > and sense. > In the 3-wire arrangement the winding of the combined wire has to meet both > sets of requirements. > > Specifically, for this case, in a 4-wire mem, where the inhibit wire was > woven just for > the purposes of inhibit, I don't anticipate it's going to have the noise > cancellation topology > needed to function as the sense wire. > > Sense wires were woven as a floating loop feeding a differential > amplifier. The loop is kept > quite closed or otherwise woven in a very balanced manner so that the > magnetic fields from the > large select currents (and other influences) will cancel out or be > rejected as common-mode influence at the > differential amp inputs. > > The select current magnetic fields trigger the magnetic field reversal of > the core, you want to sense the latter distinct from the former. > Unless you have circuitry with the wherewithal to distinguish those > induced currents in the sense wire in time > (delay of the core field reversal from the select field), you otherwise > have to minimise the influence of the select current fields on the sense > wire. > > If you look at the diagrams in my article you can see the sorts of > differences in weaving topologies between 3 & 4 wire arrangements, > as well as examples of the tortured topologies resorted to to balance the > sense loop. > In the 3-wire example there you can see how the S/I wire was split in half > with a special resistor network at one end to allow inhibit current flow > while at the same time configuring it as a balanced loop for the sense > function. > > My article certainly isn't the last word on the variety of > implementations, I believe there were 4-wire designs with sense wires > parallel to > select wires as in the 3-wire designs for example, so you never know until > you examine the specifics at hand, > but I think it unlikely you'd have much success getting the inhibit wire > to function for sense, not without going to as much trouble > messing with the stack as if you tried to fix the sense wire. > Thanks. I think that this information will rule out the idea of using the inhibit wire instead. It is likely to be not viable. > > If the sense wire is open I'd guess there's a good chance it's at one of > the end points where it's soldered to a terminal or at an existing splice > from manufacture time and might be repairable if access could be had. > Access is of course the problem. I tried to check at the terminals and it looked like the wire was ok there, but it is in an extremely tight place. I tried to apply some small amount of solder in the hop that it was just bad contact at one of the terminals but no difference unfortunately. > > Might the stack have a parity bit array that could be redirected to > replace the faulty bit array?, > perhaps foregoing the parity checking on that board-set if the parity > logic is present. > I think I have checked the existence of a parity plane. It appears that there is none present. The writing on the core module show no parity plane and there are only twelve sense and inhibit terminals. So what are the other options? * Trying to repair the unit. Every plane is soldered together with the ones nearby to convey the X/Y signals. This can probably be undone with a patience and soldering braid. But what are the chance that the X/Y wires gets lose then? Are those soldered or welded into place? Then it would be quite tricky to just identify where it is actually broken. Any ideas for how to do this? A microscope of course. Any other ideas? Applying an electrical field between the wire and something else and try to detect it? Repair. If the wire is broken in the mat it is probably not to difficult to pull out the broken parts. But then the new wire has to be spliced in. What is t he best technique to do that? How to push in the new wire in the matrix? I now that Anders was able to do this with a broken X-wire in a PDP-8/L stack. * Use a PDP-15 MM15 stack and sense/inhibit boards. I have several off these. Adding a small backplane, put the X/Y drivers, sense amp/inhibit drivers and level converters there and then adapt to the existing slots for the memory module. It would be a horrible mixture of TTL and transistors. But it would still be core memory. * Use solid state technology. Possibly inside the memory box so it looks real but emulates the actual core memory module. Any ideas how this could be done in the best way? /Mattis From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Sep 6 04:36:38 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 10:36:38 +0100 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> <01Q4LK03BIMY0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <46301136-d109-9bee-cbcc-33105fa9f31e@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/09/2016 09:43, Fritz Mueller wrote: > But thinking on it, I bet USB has something to do > with it here ? perhaps buffer latency through the USB drivers is > keeping software flow-control (xon/xoff) from functioning effectively > at higher baud rates I've had that problem with a printer and a double-buffered UART. As near as I could determine, the printer waited to send XOFF until there was only one or maybe two characters free in its software buffer, but by that time there was one char in transit, one more in the printer's receiver buffer register and another in the computer's UART's transmitter buffer register. That's at least one too many :-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Sep 6 04:59:10 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 03:59:10 -0600 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> <01Q4LK03BIMY0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <49bfa7e7-cc72-dbf7-9243-db7c3e726fbd@e-bbes.com> On 2016-09-06 02:43, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Hi all, thanks for the help/advice! > Another idea that might work would be to take an FPGA proto board that I have > and hack up a better serial port ? something with some buffering and xon/xoff > logic sitting downstream of the USB interface. Why not just leave it at 4800? You're spending a lot of effort to get transmit at 19200, then have to insert padding for all screen control, so are you sure it is worth your time? Don't mind playing with hardware, don't get me wrong, but the result is still a 4800 baud terminal ;-) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 05:15:55 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:15:55 +0200 Subject: Mattel Aquarius QD diskette drive Message-ID: >From Adrian Graham on FB. I never knew it had one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0MpUMh80zk -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 05:41:42 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:41:42 +0200 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 6 September 2016 at 05:56, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > If there's ever a vote taken up for whether to ban the constant billboarding > of ebay ads here, > I'm for "ban." People who know how to use ebay do not need help finding > things on ebay. I wonder if these legendary "people who know how to use eBay" know how to bottom-quote? Since you apparently know some such gurus, perhaps you could ask them to teach you? No, you're wrong. Firstly, as usual for the USA, you assume the entire world is American. Hint: it's not. People in other countries may not be readily able to search eBay US. Or they may not have saved searches, or they may not cover what's posted, or they didn't know something existed or was available, or a thousand other reasons. If you don't like them, ignore the threads. Some of us find them useful or interesting. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Sep 6 05:49:01 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:49:01 +0200 Subject: Manx [Was: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?] In-Reply-To: <0b3f01d20213$b5c18b00$2144a100$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ae501d20170$b0fe0c90$12fa25b0$@ntlworld.com> <389BDF10-A221-4350-AFBF-83A5E46B9A51@comcast.net> <0b3f01d20213$b5c18b00$2144a100$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20160906104901.GM3629@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 05:38:02PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > but Manx seems to be in the process of being relocated > Hasn't Manx been in that state for ages? /P From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 6 06:31:47 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:31:47 +0100 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <02d201d20832$40bc8790$c23596b0$@ntlworld.com> > No, you're wrong. Firstly, as usual for the USA, you assume the entire world > is American. Hint: it's not. People in other countries may not be readily able > to search eBay US. Or they may not have saved searches, or they may not > cover what's posted, or they didn't know something existed or was available, > or a thousand other reasons. > > If you don't like them, ignore the threads. > > Some of us find them useful or interesting. > I agree. The volume of these eBay emails is not high. It would be another matter if there were really a lot of these emails, but as it is I find them useful/interesting. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 6 06:32:56 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:32:56 +0100 Subject: Manx [Was: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?] In-Reply-To: <20160906104901.GM3629@Update.UU.SE> References: <0ae501d20170$b0fe0c90$12fa25b0$@ntlworld.com> <389BDF10-A221-4350-AFBF-83A5E46B9A51@comcast.net> <0b3f01d20213$b5c18b00$2144a100$@ntlworld.com> <20160906104901.GM3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <02d501d20832$69dec5c0$3d9c5140$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Pontus Pihlgren [mailto:pontus at Update.UU.SE] > Sent: 06 September 2016 11:49 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Cc: 'Paul Koning' > Subject: Manx [Was: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - > Interchangeability?] > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 05:38:02PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > > but Manx seems to be in the process of being relocated > > > > Hasn't Manx been in that state for ages? > > /P I hadn't noticed until I tried to access it a week or so ago, because I have most of the manuals I need locally so I don't check Manx all that often. Is there any news on when it might be back though? Regards Rob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Sep 6 06:20:56 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:20:56 +0100 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 06/09/2016 11:41, Liam Proven wrote: > On 6 September 2016 at 05:56, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> If there's ever a vote taken up for whether to ban the constant billboarding >> of ebay ads here, >> I'm for "ban." People who know how to use ebay do not need help finding >> things on ebay. > > No, you're wrong. Firstly, as usual for the USA, you assume the entire > world is American. Hint: it's not. People in other countries may not > be readily able to search eBay US. Or they may not have saved > searches, or they may not cover what's posted, or they didn't know > something existed or was available, or a thousand other reasons. Agreed. I find such occasional posts interesting. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From tingox at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 07:58:46 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:58:46 +0200 Subject: Manx [Was: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?] In-Reply-To: <02d501d20832$69dec5c0$3d9c5140$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ae501d20170$b0fe0c90$12fa25b0$@ntlworld.com> <389BDF10-A221-4350-AFBF-83A5E46B9A51@comcast.net> <0b3f01d20213$b5c18b00$2144a100$@ntlworld.com> <20160906104901.GM3629@Update.UU.SE> <02d501d20832$69dec5c0$3d9c5140$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pontus Pihlgren [mailto:pontus at Update.UU.SE] >> Sent: 06 September 2016 11:49 >> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Cc: 'Paul Koning' >> Subject: Manx [Was: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - >> Interchangeability?] >> >> On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 05:38:02PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> > >> > but Manx seems to be in the process of being relocated >> > >> >> Hasn't Manx been in that state for ages? >> >> /P > > I hadn't noticed until I tried to access it a week or so ago, because I have > most of the manuals I need locally so I don't check Manx all that often. Is > there any news on when it might be back though? I asked about the terminals wiki about a week ago, and got "at least a couple more weeks" as an answer. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 6 08:01:17 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:01:17 -0500 Subject: Manx Message-ID: <000001d2083e$c1a66db0$44f34910$@classiccmp.org> It was written.... ------------------------------- > but Manx seems to be in the process of being relocated > Hasn't Manx been in that state for ages? /P --------------------------------- manx.classiccmp.org terminals.classiccmp.org computergraphicsmuseum.com/net/org The owner of those three sites has the unfortunate honor of being the only person ever asked to leave the free hosting at classiccmp.org. I gave him 30 days to get his stuff hosted elsewhere. I even backed up all his content and databases and put them on a 1.5TB external hard drive and shipped it to him (while keeping the sites running on the classiccmp server). Even though I told him 30 days, I gave him about 180 days before I said "you have to get these moved or I'll have to turn them off". After about another 90 days or more, I did redirects back to his home site so they at least weren't dead. The content and databases are still on the classiccmp server, although publicly inaccessible, just to make sure the new locations are up and running before I delete the content locally. I did my best..... J From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 6 08:18:32 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:18:32 +0100 Subject: Manx In-Reply-To: <000001d2083e$c1a66db0$44f34910$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d2083e$c1a66db0$44f34910$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <02f001d20841$2a64c7f0$7f2e57d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay West [mailto:jwest at classiccmp.org] > Sent: 06 September 2016 14:01 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > ; rob at jarratt.me.uk > Subject: RE: Manx > > It was written.... > ------------------------------- > > but Manx seems to be in the process of being relocated > > > > Hasn't Manx been in that state for ages? > > /P > --------------------------------- > > manx.classiccmp.org > terminals.classiccmp.org > computergraphicsmuseum.com/net/org > > The owner of those three sites has the unfortunate honor of being the only > person ever asked to leave the free hosting at classiccmp.org. > I gave him 30 days to get his stuff hosted elsewhere. > I even backed up all his content and databases and put them on a 1.5TB > external hard drive and shipped it to him (while keeping the sites running on > the classiccmp server). > Even though I told him 30 days, I gave him about 180 days before I said "you > have to get these moved or I'll have to turn them off". > After about another 90 days or more, I did redirects back to his home site so > they at least weren't dead. > > The content and databases are still on the classiccmp server, although > publicly inaccessible, just to make sure the new locations are up and running > before I delete the content locally. > Oh dear! Can we have the backup of the contents somewhere downloadable? If not the code, which may belong to the owner, then at least the actual manuals? What other options might there be to ensure that the content is not lost? Regards Rob From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 6 08:32:05 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:32:05 -0500 Subject: Manx In-Reply-To: <02f001d20841$2a64c7f0$7f2e57d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <000001d2083e$c1a66db0$44f34910$@classiccmp.org> <02f001d20841$2a64c7f0$7f2e57d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000101d20843$0f58e200$2e0aa600$@classiccmp.org> Rob wrote... ------- Can we have the backup of the contents somewhere downloadable? If not the code, which may belong to the owner, then at least the actual manuals? What other options might there be to ensure that the content is not lost? ------- No, I can't make the contents downloadable. They belong to the site owner not me. But do not fear that it might go away forever. The site owner plans to get the sites back up (hosted elsewhere) and that will be the end of it. In general terms, as it relates to other classiccmp-hosted websites - If a site owner deceases or similar, then I'd have to get permission from heirs or determine if the content was truly abandoned and if so - then I could keep the site running and available in perpetuity. But the three sites mentioned clearly have an active owner - and that's not me. My intent by posting that was not to create/expose drama. My intent was to let folks know that I went to fairly extreme and generous levels to make sure the site stayed up; it's not in my nature to turn off a classiccmp-related website. This was a unique situation. J From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Tue Sep 6 08:41:25 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 06:41:25 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: References: <57CDE1D7.3020605@pico-systems.com> <57CE0176.1020504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: From: "Mattis Lind: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 2:11 AM > * Use a PDP-15 MM15 stack and sense/inhibit boards. > > I have several off these. Adding a small backplane, put the X/Y drivers, > sense amp/inhibit drivers and level converters there and then adapt to the > existing slots for the memory module. It would be a horrible mixture of TTL > and transistors. But it would still be core memory. There's a guy on eBay who periodically offers stacks for 8/I or 8/L: http://www.ebay.com/itm/172295154098 Those might (or might not) be more straight-forward to interface (though DEC's proof of concept is a TTL interface). > * Use solid state technology. Possibly inside the memory box so it looks > real but emulates the actual core memory module. > Any ideas how this could be done in the best way? I did some (theoretical) work on a core replacement for the 8/S a few years ago based on some ideas from John Price. That's embedded in the "memory" drawing in http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/PDP8S/. (See sheet 2; most of the schematic is just the schematic of an 8/S.) Somewhere I also explored a notion of pulling the inhibit driver and sense amp stuff, replacing the stack itself with a memory board, then replacing the inhibit drivers and sense amps with interface boards that knew how to talk to the new memory board. If I recall, that was in the 8/I or 8/L context, though. I never built any of it, it was just a thought exercise. There seemed to be plenty of board real estate to work with, though. Vince From jason at smbfc.net Tue Sep 6 09:51:47 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 07:51:47 -0700 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <02d201d20832$40bc8790$c23596b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> <02d201d20832$40bc8790$c23596b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <89d1e675-9007-0ffc-2657-198c43b9c3cc@smbfc.net> On 09/06/2016 04:31 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> Some of us find them useful or interesting. >> > > I agree. The volume of these eBay emails is not high. It would be another matter if there were really a lot of these emails, but as it is I find them useful/interesting. > > Regards > > Rob > Same here. I don't troll ebay regularly and only have a couple very specific saved searches. Some pretty interested stuff comes up on ebay occasionally which I might not have seen otherswise. That said, when folks just dump an ebay item number rather than a full link, those posts should die in a fire ;) --Jason From js at cimmeri.com Tue Sep 6 10:06:50 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 10:06:50 -0500 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <20160906044939.GA7727@lonesome.com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> <20160906044939.GA7727@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <57CEDB8A.7050600@cimmeri.com> On 9/5/2016 11:49 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 10:56:24PM -0500, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> If there's ever a vote taken up for whether to ban the constant billboarding >> of ebay ads here, I'm for "ban." > I would subscribe to a spin-off list that was merely for buy/sell/trade. > > mcl That would be my preference as well. A "ccebay at classiccmp.org" list. Or at least in an indication in the subject line "ebay: [topic]" so they can get filtered out. - J. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Sep 6 10:07:51 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:07:51 -0400 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <1E1E5D87-9E22-4A97-BF1C-9720A15F535D@comcast.net> > On Sep 4, 2016, at 8:10 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > Hi all ? > > I?m trying to run a real-deal vt100 on a serial port connected to Linux (Xubunto 16.04). I?ve got this working *pretty* well, but it looks like the padding values in the default vt100 terminfo entry are not quite correct ? when running the vt100 at 9600 I still get occasional garbage characters on the screen, and 19200 is a hopeless mess. 19200? I didn't think the VT100 supported that. You've got to be careful with that setting, even on devices that claim to do it. When it first appeared, it was often a "just barely possible" setting on the clock generator, with an actual bit rate off a couple of percent from the correct value. If both ends used the same clock generators, no problem of course. But if one end uses an accurate one, you may get framing errors. > I did figure out that if the terminfo contains ?xon?, the non-mandatory padding values in the terminfo are disregarded. Removing this, then disabling xon/xoff on both the vt100 and the tty device actually produces *better* results ? apparently the turnaround on xon/xoff isn?t quite fast enough to keep the terminal from being swamped at higher baud rates, and padding actually works better. But tracking down the source for the default vt100 entry turned up a comment that admits that the padding values there are a total guess. :-( I have never heard of "padding" for any DEC video terminals other than the VT05. And I have never seen messed up characters at 9600 baud. Flow control is by XON/XOFF, and the implementation has to react promptly to XOFF. If you're seeing lost characters, it may be that XOFF processing in your host is too slow, either because its terminal driver is poor, or because the converter used introduces too much delay. On the other hand, flow control issues do not result in "garbage" characters. The only way you'd get what looks like garbage is if escape sequences are corrupted so a portion of that sequence is mistaken for text. If you see garbage in a full screen editor, that could be the reason. On the other hand, if you're just sending a large document to the screen and you're seeing garbage, flow control is not the cause. Earlier on there was some discussion about modern interface devices with non-compliant "RS232" transceivers. If your RS232 output is marginal, that could cause garbage. If the clocks are off, ditto. An oscilloscope could be used to test both those theories. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Sep 6 10:30:39 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay Message-ID: <20160906153039.724A518C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jason Howe > Some pretty interested stuff comes up on ebay occasionally which I > might not have seen otherswise. Exactamundo. > when folks just dump an ebay item number rather than a full link, those > posts should die Why? It's a tiny bit more work to use them (prepend the number with the string "http://www.ebay.com/itm/", and away you go), so one can't just click and go, but are people really that unwilling to go to the slightest effort? Noel From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 6 10:43:22 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Manx In-Reply-To: <000001d2083e$c1a66db0$44f34910$@classiccmp.org> from Jay West at "Sep 6, 16 08:01:17 am" Message-ID: <201609061543.u86FhMZH32440478@floodgap.com> > The owner of those three sites has the unfortunate honor of being the only > person ever asked to leave the free hosting at classiccmp.org. I realize this is likely confidential, but it's aching to be asked: what on earth did he do?? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Save a horse, starve a fever. Wait, what? -- Alex Payne -------------------- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Sep 6 10:48:12 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:48:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RK05 packs Message-ID: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I have a fairly large group of 16-sector RK05 packs (i.e. PDP-8, -12) which I have no use for, which I would like to trade for 12-sector RK05 packs (i.e. PDP-11). Anyone have any of the latter, and need the former? Alternatively, if anyone has any head-crashed 12-sector RK05 packs, I would be interested in buying them (or trading something else) for them. (I am reliably informed that one can replace the platter on an RK05 pack without too much work, so I'd transplant the 12-sector hubs into the packs I already have). (Replies to me, please, not the whole list - unless there's some point you wish to make which would be of general interest.) Noel From cube1 at charter.net Tue Sep 6 10:53:23 2016 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 10:53:23 -0500 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <83ED6F8E-B7E5-4EC1-B69E-ECEA619BDC50@charter.net> I'd be willing to trade two or three, to have some of the 8 sort. Sent from my iPad > On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:48, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > So I have a fairly large group of 16-sector RK05 packs (i.e. PDP-8, -12) which > I have no use for, which I would like to trade for 12-sector RK05 packs (i.e. > PDP-11). Anyone have any of the latter, and need the former? > > Alternatively, if anyone has any head-crashed 12-sector RK05 packs, I would be > interested in buying them (or trading something else) for them. (I am reliably > informed that one can replace the platter on an RK05 pack without too much > work, so I'd transplant the 12-sector hubs into the packs I already have). > > (Replies to me, please, not the whole list - unless there's some point you > wish to make which would be of general interest.) > > Noel From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Sep 6 10:48:32 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 16:48:32 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay Message-ID: <01Q4MXTV39BO0000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > when folks just dump an ebay item number rather than a full link, those > > posts should die > > Why? It's a tiny bit more work to use them (prepend the number with the > string "http://www.ebay.com/itm/", and away you go), so one can't just click > and go, but are people really that unwilling to go to the slightest effort? > Any given posting to a mailing list is sent by one person and read by many. If there is a small effort to be made, it makes more sense for the sender to make it once than all the interested recipients to have to duplicate the effort. On the other hand, faulty spam filters may be more likely to stomp on messages containing urls so there may be also be a case for not including urls in postings if possible. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From aswood at t-online.de Tue Sep 6 10:58:58 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 17:58:58 +0200 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I'd like to trade two media. > Am 06.09.2016 um 17:48 schrieb Noel Chiappa : > > So I have a fairly large group of 16-sector RK05 packs (i.e. PDP-8, -12) which > I have no use for, which I would like to trade for 12-sector RK05 packs (i.e. > PDP-11). Anyone have any of the latter, and need the former? > > Alternatively, if anyone has any head-crashed 12-sector RK05 packs, I would be > interested in buying them (or trading something else) for them. (I am reliably > informed that one can replace the platter on an RK05 pack without too much > work, so I'd transplant the 12-sector hubs into the packs I already have). > > (Replies to me, please, not the whole list - unless there's some point you > wish to make which would be of general interest.) > > Noel From js at cimmeri.com Tue Sep 6 11:04:42 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 11:04:42 -0500 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <89d1e675-9007-0ffc-2657-198c43b9c3cc@smbfc.net> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> <02d201d20832$40bc8790$c23596b0$@ntlworld.com> <89d1e675-9007-0ffc-2657-198c43b9c3cc@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <57CEE91A.6040909@cimmeri.com> On 9/6/2016 9:51 AM, Jason Howe wrote: > On 09/06/2016 04:31 AM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: >> >>> Some of us find them useful or >>> interesting. >>> >> >> I agree. The volume of these eBay >> emails is not high. It would be >> another matter if there were really a >> lot of these emails, but as it is I >> find them useful/interesting. > Same here. I don't troll ebay > regularly and only have a couple very > specific saved searches. Some pretty > interested stuff comes up on ebay > occasionally which I might not have > seen otherswise. Just curious -- this stuff that's come up, that you might not have seen otherwise, how often was it anything really needed? How often have you bought any of it? I too admit to having found some of these ebay postings to be interesting. But in the end, they were just distractions from what was more important to me: the scores of electronics projects I've already got ... purchased almost entirely from... you got it -- eBay. All of which were found without the assistance of extra postings outside of ebay. I suppose I'm making a larger point, that if you didn't try to find it yourself, maybe you didn't really need it to begin with. Maybe it's better for your wallet that you never saw it to begin with. Countless interesting things happen every day that we simply can't become aware of. It's not necessary see or purchase every single interesting thing, nor possible to become aware of every single interesting thing or event in a day. Over-distraction and over-consumption is definitely a growing bane of the current world. So that's all I'm saying: re-advertising here what is already advertised and readily found on ebay itself (if you are realistic and understand that you might not be able to find every single instance of something that interests you nor is it necessary that you do so) is distracting. On the other hand, if someone had some magical powers of discovery on ebay, and posted things that nobody else could possibly find, that'd be cool. - J. From aswood at t-online.de Tue Sep 6 11:03:48 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:03:48 +0200 Subject: Manx In-Reply-To: <201609061543.u86FhMZH32440478@floodgap.com> References: <201609061543.u86FhMZH32440478@floodgap.com> Message-ID: http://rtk.mirrors.pdp-11.ru/ Am 06.09.2016 um 17:43 schrieb Cameron Kaiser : >> The owner of those three sites has the unfortunate honor of being the only >> person ever asked to leave the free hosting at classiccmp.org. > > I realize this is likely confidential, but it's aching to be asked: what on > earth did he do?? > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Save a horse, starve a fever. Wait, what? -- Alex Payne -------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 6 11:04:24 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 09:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <57CEE91A.6040909@cimmeri.com> from "js@cimmeri.com" at "Sep 6, 16 11:04:42 am" Message-ID: <201609061604.u86G4OGu16581512@floodgap.com> > Just curious -- this stuff that's come > up, that you might not have seen > otherwise, how often was it anything > really needed? That's why it's a hobby. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never blame on malice what can be blamed on abject idiocy. ----------------- From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Sep 6 11:07:15 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:07:15 -0400 Subject: Manx Message-ID: the terminals site is still on archive.org https://web.archive.org/web/20150720142308/http://terminals.classiccmp.org/w iki/index.php/Category:Alpha_Micro ta da...... Ed# In a message dated 9/6/2016 6:01:32 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: It was written.... ------------------------------- > but Manx seems to be in the process of being relocated > Hasn't Manx been in that state for ages? /P --------------------------------- manx.classiccmp.org terminals.classiccmp.org computergraphicsmuseum.com/net/org The owner of those three sites has the unfortunate honor of being the only person ever asked to leave the free hosting at classiccmp.org. I gave him 30 days to get his stuff hosted elsewhere. I even backed up all his content and databases and put them on a 1.5TB external hard drive and shipped it to him (while keeping the sites running on the classiccmp server). Even though I told him 30 days, I gave him about 180 days before I said "you have to get these moved or I'll have to turn them off". After about another 90 days or more, I did redirects back to his home site so they at least weren't dead. The content and databases are still on the classiccmp server, although publicly inaccessible, just to make sure the new locations are up and running before I delete the content locally. I did my best..... J From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Sep 6 11:16:06 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:16:06 -0400 Subject: Manx Message-ID: the terminals site is still on archive.org https://web.archive.org/web/20150720142308/http://terminals.classiccmp.org/w iki/index.php/Category:Alpha_Micro ta da...... Ed# resending got error In a message dated 9/6/2016 9:07:15 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, COURYHOUSE at aol.com writes: the terminals site is still on archive.org https://web.archive.org/web/20150720142308/http://terminals.classiccmp.org/w iki/index.php/Category:Alpha_Micro ta da...... Ed# In a message dated 9/6/2016 6:01:32 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: It was written.... ------------------------------- > but Manx seems to be in the process of being relocated > Hasn't Manx been in that state for ages? /P --------------------------------- manx.classiccmp.org terminals.classiccmp.org computergraphicsmuseum.com/net/org The owner of those three sites has the unfortunate honor of being the only person ever asked to leave the free hosting at classiccmp.org. I gave him 30 days to get his stuff hosted elsewhere. I even backed up all his content and databases and put them on a 1.5TB external hard drive and shipped it to him (while keeping the sites running on the classiccmp server). Even though I told him 30 days, I gave him about 180 days before I said "you have to get these moved or I'll have to turn them off". After about another 90 days or more, I did redirects back to his home site so they at least weren't dead. The content and databases are still on the classiccmp server, although publicly inaccessible, just to make sure the new locations are up and running before I delete the content locally. I did my best..... J From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Sep 6 11:18:55 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:18:55 -0400 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <57CEE91A.6040909@cimmeri.com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> <02d201d20832$40bc8790$c23596b0$@ntlworld.com> <89d1e675-9007-0ffc-2657-198c43b9c3cc@smbfc.net> <57CEE91A.6040909@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <10FBFCB0-2FE7-4D2F-AEBB-831EA8E1F945@comcast.net> > On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:04 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > On 9/6/2016 9:51 AM, Jason Howe wrote: >> On 09/06/2016 04:31 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> >>>> Some of us find them useful or interesting. >>>> >>> >>> I agree. The volume of these eBay emails is not high. It would be another matter if there were really a lot of these emails, but as it is I find them useful/interesting. >> Same here. I don't troll ebay regularly and only have a couple very specific saved searches. Some pretty interested stuff comes up on ebay occasionally which I might not have seen otherswise. > > Just curious -- this stuff that's come up, that you might not have seen otherwise, how often was it anything really needed? How often have you bought any of it? That's not quite the correct question. The correct question is "how often did you appreciate the opportunity to see the item and were not aware of it until the post showed up?" My answer is: at least a dozen times. paul From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Sep 6 12:01:12 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 10:01:12 -0700 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <57CEDB8A.7050600@cimmeri.com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> <20160906044939.GA7727@lonesome.com> <57CEDB8A.7050600@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <7415ed37-e121-1de8-4250-d4b313278a14@jwsss.com> On 9/6/2016 8:06 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > That would be my preference as well. A "ccebay at classiccmp.org" list. > > Or at least in an indication in the subject line "ebay: [topic]" so > they can get filtered out. > > - J. > > I will attempt to do that. Also you can trim off everything in any link that you post. The only thing you need to post in any link is the ebay domain url, itm and the number. If you have not done so, the following auction link shows what came from my browser for the huge pile in KC link. I trimmed off the after the ? after the auction number. I usually copy the description to the line above and clip it out of the url. Apparently ebay ignores it. The number is sufficient though as said, but i like to post a small url rather than that in case someone reads on a browser type setup where copying the number takes a number of steps. this: http://www.ebay.com/itm//191960867958 becomes: HUGE-LOT-OF-VINTAGE-COMPUTERS-MONITORS-AND-PARTS/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/191960867958 thanks will try to filter the noise for those who prefer not to see sales. I acquire a lot from ebay and this list and appreciate all the extra eyes on the sales that are shared here, but also appreciate those who want to just discuss the collections, etc. thanks jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Sep 6 12:04:44 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 10:04:44 -0700 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <57CEE91A.6040909@cimmeri.com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> <02d201d20832$40bc8790$c23596b0$@ntlworld.com> <89d1e675-9007-0ffc-2657-198c43b9c3cc@smbfc.net> <57CEE91A.6040909@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <0719648c-ef59-029f-4774-5691faf50353@jwsss.com> On 9/6/2016 9:04 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > So that's all I'm saying: re-advertising here what is already > advertised and readily found on ebay itself Frequently it is not easily found on ebay. Mislisted descriptions and titles are common. i have a lot of watch list items now, but I find I have to troll prolific sellers to get all the goodies, and also find that this list opens up a lot of new ways and sellers as well. thanks Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 6 12:16:42 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 10:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <57CEE91A.6040909@cimmeri.com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> <02d201d20832$40bc8790$c23596b0$@ntlworld.com> <89d1e675-9007-0ffc-2657-198c43b9c3cc@smbfc.net> <57CEE91A.6040909@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Sep 2016, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Just curious -- this stuff that's come up, that you might not have seen > otherwise, how often was it anything really needed? rarely > How often have you bought any of it? rarely Interesting, and worth looking at? OFTEN! > I suppose I'm making a larger point, that if you didn't try to find it > yourself, maybe you didn't really need it to begin with. Maybe it's > better for your wallet that you never saw it to begin with. Maybe better for wallet to not be HERE at all! > Over-distraction and over-consumption is definitely a growing bane of > the current world. and yet, we are here discussing stuff that we do NOT need. > On the other hand, if someone had some magical powers of discovery on > ebay, and posted things that nobody else could possibly find, that'd be > cool. Often there are mentions of interesting stuff that I would not have thought to seek out, otherwise. A tag for ease of filtering might help. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From sales at elecplus.com Tue Sep 6 12:45:54 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:45:54 -0500 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <71157d94-ece0-d68f-70ff-6af4d6172ea2@jwsss.com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> <71157d94-ece0-d68f-70ff-6af4d6172ea2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <08bc01d20866$846ce0a0$8d46a1e0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 11:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay Yes, we do. I had not found this ad and it is in Kansas City, where I have a warehouse. Cindy, I didn't see the 8" floppies though. I also thought this was in Colorado, but see it listed as KC now, though that may only be another auction. This unfortunately isn't up my alley for collecting. thanks jim The spreadsheet is available at the bottom of the listing. The floppies should be there. Please note there should also be several tabs to the spreadsheet. Cindy From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 13:02:58 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:02:58 -0400 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <08bc01d20866$846ce0a0$8d46a1e0$@com> References: <078601d207ef$1de3eb20$59abc160$@com> <57CE3E68.7010009@cimmeri.com> <71157d94-ece0-d68f-70ff-6af4d6172ea2@jwsss.com> <08bc01d20866$846ce0a0$8d46a1e0$@com> Message-ID: > > > > Cindy, I didn't see the 8" floppies though. I also thought this was in > Colorado, but see it listed as KC now, though that may only be another > auction. This unfortunately isn't up my alley for collecting. > thanks > jim > > I mentioned this on a different thread, but I am surprised someone with this number of Apple/Macs and who has these items near Kansas Fest might not want to sell them there. Being that it was in July, I guess they can't wait a year. Seems odd. http://www.kansasfest.org/about/ b From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Sep 6 13:04:13 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay Message-ID: <20160906180413.348E718C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: js > That would be my preference as well. A "ccebay at classiccmp.org" list. I think we all know that wouldn't work, for a number of reasons. > Or at least in an indication in the subject line "ebay: [topic]" so > they can get filtered out. This, however, I can definitely see as a good move. I will add such a tag to any eBay notification posts I make, and I encourage everyone else who posts such to do the same. > From: Peter Coghlan >> It's a tiny bit more work to use them > Any given posting to a mailing list is sent by one person and read by > many. If there is a small effort to be made, it makes more sense for > the sender to make it once than all the interested recipients to have > to duplicate the effort. Excellent point. And the "eBay:" tag idea follow this principle too, I will note... So let's remember to add that tag, everyone! Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Sep 6 13:07:43 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RK05 packs Message-ID: <20160906180743.595EC18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > So I have a fairly large group of 16-sector RK05 packs ... which I have > no use for, which I would like to trade for 12-sector RK05 packs Hi, all, I've had quite a few responses, so I think I have this covered now. Thanks to everyone who responded; if you haven't gotten a reply yet, I'm trying to catch up, you should hear soon! :-) Noel From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Sep 6 13:25:42 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:25:42 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness Message-ID: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> My 6800 has been mostly working, but it seems to be occasionally flaking out. I don't know why. Sometimes you go to power it up, and there's no response on terminal side. The 'fix' is sometimes to wiggle the memory/CPU boards and then for some reason it's fine(ish). There are five cards installed right now - the MP-A, MP-S, a heavily modified MP-M board (with rams piggybacked on all the original RAM chips) and then two Digital Research 16k boards. The system was modified for Flex 2.0 Today it flaked again and would not come back up, so I pulled the MP-M board and the MP-A board and swapped slots. It came up, but memory at $0100 was missing. I tried powering up, swapping slots, etc.. same deal. Then I left the machine for an hour, powered up again.. boom.. now $0100 is back. I don't fully understand the addressing system but if that MP-M is configured as $A000 would that cover $0100 as well? I've tried changing the jumpers on each of the DR 16k board to cover $A000.. but the machine will not boot. I will only work with either the MP-M alone or those 16k cards with it configured to other spaces. In other words, the machine does not accept any other card configured for $A000. I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how I might nail this down. I'm thinking some of the RAMs on that MP-M are flaky, but it would be a *nightmare* to try and diagnose it, with all the RAMs piggybacked, all the little jumper wires, and everything soldered. I'd prefer to bypass it and either use my other, less modified MP-M or just the DR boards, which are socketed. If any of you have suggestions on how I might take this MP-M out of the equation that would be awesome! Brad From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 6 13:35:52 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Sep 2016, Brad H wrote: > My 6800 has been mostly working, but it seems to be occasionally flaking > out. I don't know why. Sometimes you go to power it up, and there's no > response on terminal side. The 'fix' is sometimes to wiggle the memory/CPU > boards and then for some reason it's fine(ish). There are five cards fix by wiggling implies a bad connection. possibly due to oxidation or corrosion of connector? Depending on how vigorous the wiggling is, it could even be bad connection between a chip and socket, or even tiny damage to a trace on the board. > Today it flaked again and would not come back up, so I pulled the MP-M board > and the MP-A board and swapped slots. It came up, but memory at $0100 was > missing. I tried powering up, swapping slots, etc.. same deal. Then I > left the machine for an hour, powered up again.. boom.. now $0100 is back. Working later could be a thermal problem, or just random chance. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 13:37:01 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:37:01 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Brad H wrote: > My 6800 has been mostly working, but it seems to be occasionally flaking > out. I don't know why. Sometimes you go to power it up, and there's no > response on terminal side. The 'fix' is sometimes to wiggle the memory/CPU > boards and then for some reason it's fine(ish). There are five cards > installed right now - the MP-A, MP-S, a heavily modified MP-M board (with > rams piggybacked on all the original RAM chips) and then two Digital > Research 16k boards. The system was modified for Flex 2.0 > > > > Today it flaked again and would not come back up, so I pulled the MP-M > board > and the MP-A board and swapped slots. It came up, but memory at $0100 was > missing. I tried powering up, swapping slots, etc.. same deal. Then I > left the machine for an hour, powered up again.. boom.. now $0100 is back. > I don't fully understand the addressing system but if that MP-M is > configured as $A000 would that cover $0100 as well? > > > > I've tried changing the jumpers on each of the DR 16k board to cover > $A000.. > but the machine will not boot. I will only work with either the MP-M alone > or those 16k cards with it configured to other spaces. In other words, the > machine does not accept any other card configured for $A000. > > > > I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how I might nail this down. > I'm thinking some of the RAMs on that MP-M are flaky, but it would be a > *nightmare* to try and diagnose it, with all the RAMs piggybacked, all the > little jumper wires, and everything soldered. I'd prefer to bypass it and > either use my other, less modified MP-M or just the DR boards, which are > socketed. If any of you have suggestions on how I might take this MP-M out > of the equation that would be awesome! > > > Brad > > Brad, You'll need to make electrical measurements, from the system checkout in the manual. You very possibly will have marginal components that need to be replaced, but it's best to try to locate which is bad rather that to replace at random. A000 is not the same place as 0100. In the 64K space, they're quite distant. Eliminate all but the one RAM board, setting it to 0000. Test that thoroughly, then add the next at the next RAM space beyond the first card. Continue until you have enough RAM for a minimal Flex boot. It should tell you in the version of Flex you're using how much that is (24K?) It's hard to do everything at the same time, break it down into chunks.. Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 13:49:43 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:49:43 -0400 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <20160906180743.595EC18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160906180743.595EC18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > So I have a fairly large group of 16-sector RK05 packs ... which I have > > no use for, which I would like to trade for 12-sector RK05 packs > > Hi, all, I've had quite a few responses, so I think I have this covered now. > Thanks to everyone who responded; if you haven't gotten a reply yet, I'm trying > to catch up, you should hear soon! :-) If you do get some dropouts, I have a large collection of 12-sector packs and only 1 or 2 16-sector packs. -ethan From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Sep 6 14:50:28 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 21:50:28 +0200 Subject: Manx In-Reply-To: <000001d2083e$c1a66db0$44f34910$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d2083e$c1a66db0$44f34910$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20160906195028.GN3629@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Sep 06, 2016 at 08:01:17AM -0500, Jay West wrote: > > I did my best..... > I had no idea, thanks for all the extra work you put in for us. And a thanks to the maintainer of Manx for working with on it! It's a great resource. /P From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Sep 6 14:56:24 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 15:56:24 -0400 Subject: Manx Message-ID: were you able to pull up link at archive.org ok I listed re: the terminals site is still on archive.org https://web.archive.org/web/20150720142308/http://terminals.classiccmp.org/w iki/index.php/Category:Alpha_Micro ta da...... Ed# In a message dated 9/6/2016 12:50:36 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, pontus at Update.UU.SE writes: On Tue, Sep 06, 2016 at 08:01:17AM -0500, Jay West wrote: > > I did my best..... > I had no idea, thanks for all the extra work you put in for us. And a thanks to the maintainer of Manx for working with on it! It's a great resource. /P From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Sep 6 15:58:31 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 13:58:31 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <00ef01d20881$6db70500$49250f00$@bettercomputing.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 11:36 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 weirdness On Tue, 6 Sep 2016, Brad H wrote: > My 6800 has been mostly working, but it seems to be occasionally > flaking out. I don't know why. Sometimes you go to power it up, and > there's no response on terminal side. The 'fix' is sometimes to > wiggle the memory/CPU boards and then for some reason it's fine(ish). > There are five cards fix by wiggling implies a bad connection. possibly due to oxidation or corrosion of connector? Depending on how vigorous the wiggling is, it could even be bad connection between a chip and socket, or even tiny damage to a trace on the board. > Today it flaked again and would not come back up, so I pulled the MP-M > board and the MP-A board and swapped slots. It came up, but memory at $0100 was > missing. I tried powering up, swapping slots, etc.. same deal. Then I > left the machine for an hour, powered up again.. boom.. now $0100 is back. >Working later could be a thermal problem, or just random chance. There is definitely some oxidation around the board and on some pins, which I thought I cleaned well enough on the particular slots I'm using. I'll check again. It seems odd that mechanical fooling around makes it work. Could be totally coincidental though. I've been a bit hesitant about taking the board out as I worry about fragility.. but I think we're past that now. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Sep 6 16:01:04 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:01:04 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <00f701d20881$c8cdf570$5a69e050$@bettercomputing.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 11:37 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 weirdness On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Brad H wrote: > My 6800 has been mostly working, but it seems to be occasionally > flaking out. I don't know why. Sometimes you go to power it up, and > there's no response on terminal side. The 'fix' is sometimes to > wiggle the memory/CPU boards and then for some reason it's fine(ish). > There are five cards installed right now - the MP-A, MP-S, a heavily > modified MP-M board (with rams piggybacked on all the original RAM > chips) and then two Digital Research 16k boards. The system was > modified for Flex 2.0 > > > > Today it flaked again and would not come back up, so I pulled the MP-M > board and the MP-A board and swapped slots. It came up, but memory at > $0100 was > missing. I tried powering up, swapping slots, etc.. same deal. Then I > left the machine for an hour, powered up again.. boom.. now $0100 is back. > I don't fully understand the addressing system but if that MP-M is > configured as $A000 would that cover $0100 as well? > > > > I've tried changing the jumpers on each of the DR 16k board to cover > $A000.. > but the machine will not boot. I will only work with either the MP-M > alone or those 16k cards with it configured to other spaces. In other > words, the machine does not accept any other card configured for $A000. > > > > I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how I might nail this down. > I'm thinking some of the RAMs on that MP-M are flaky, but it would be > a > *nightmare* to try and diagnose it, with all the RAMs piggybacked, all > the little jumper wires, and everything soldered. I'd prefer to > bypass it and either use my other, less modified MP-M or just the DR > boards, which are socketed. If any of you have suggestions on how I > might take this MP-M out of the equation that would be awesome! > > > Brad > > >Brad, >You'll need to make electrical measurements, from the system checkout in >the manual. You very possibly will have marginal components that need to >be replaced, but it's best to try to locate which is bad rather that to replace at random. >A000 is not the same place as 0100. In the 64K space, they're quite >distant. >Eliminate all but the one RAM board, setting it to 0000. Test that thoroughly, then add the next at the next RAM space beyond the first card. >Continue until you have enough RAM for a minimal Flex boot. It should tell you in the version of Flex you're using how much that is (24K?) It's hard to do everything at ?>the same time, break it down into chunks.. >Bill Thanks Bill. I've tried working with just single RAM boards, but like I said, the only one that will work at all is this modified board. I have pics of it here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6WVFiZHdyMHBlNW8&usp=sharing If I could understand better what it is set up to do, what address spaces its occupying, I might be able to understand why my 16K DRC boards don't work when I try to put them to $A000. I'd prefer to work with one of those boards first since the chips are socketed, and then I could test the chips individually and be sure one whole board is good. I note in one of my pics there, the cap on that modified MP-M looks a little tarnished on the outside... From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 6 16:36:52 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:36:52 -0700 Subject: Discovery 500 Message-ID: <060d473c-4d48-b7f7-6e1c-96613d28af63@bitsavers.org> something of interest if you're in the Phoenix area www.ebay.com/itm/291860761669 From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 16:52:08 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 17:52:08 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: <00f701d20881$c8cdf570$5a69e050$@bettercomputing.net> References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> <00f701d20881$c8cdf570$5a69e050$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: > > > > > > > >Brad, > >You'll need to make electrical measurements, from the system checkout in > >the manual. You very possibly will have marginal components that need to > >be replaced, but it's best to try to locate which is bad rather that to > replace at random. > > >A000 is not the same place as 0100. In the 64K space, they're quite > >distant. > > >Eliminate all but the one RAM board, setting it to 0000. Test that > thoroughly, then add the next at the next RAM space beyond the first card. > >Continue until you have enough RAM for a minimal Flex boot. It should > tell you in the version of Flex you're using how much that is (24K?) It's > hard to do everything at ?>the same time, break it down into chunks.. > >Bill > > Thanks Bill. I've tried working with just single RAM boards, but like I > said, the only one that will work at all is this modified board. I have > pics of it here: > > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6WVFiZHdyMHBlNW8&usp= > sharing > > If I could understand better what it is set up to do, what address spaces > its occupying, I might be able to understand why my 16K DRC boards don't > work when I try to put them to $A000. I'd prefer to work with one of those > boards first since the chips are socketed, and then I could test the chips > individually and be sure one whole board is good. > > I note in one of my pics there, the cap on that modified MP-M looks a > little tarnished on the outside... > > > > Getting a memory map of your system is an important step. You need to know what memory addresses each board is attempting to use, so that there is no overlap. Also remember that the ROM board has RAM on it too. You would not want to map both boards to the same A000 space, but why do you need this at all? What wants free RAM there? One important rule is that you don't want to overlap RAM. Can you get to a monitor prompt without any RAM installed other than that which is in the ROM board? b From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 16:52:54 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 17:52:54 -0400 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <1E1E5D87-9E22-4A97-BF1C-9720A15F535D@comcast.net> References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> <1E1E5D87-9E22-4A97-BF1C-9720A15F535D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Sep 4, 2016, at 8:10 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: >> >> Hi all ? >> >> I?m trying to run a real-deal vt100 on a serial port connected to Linux... and 19200 is a hopeless mess. > > 19200? I didn't think the VT100 supported that. We never had luck with it on VAXen and hundreds of feet of wire in the 1980s, but we _did_ have 100% rock-solid performance at 9600. Of course, we also had few genuine VT100s as opposed to VT101, VT102, VT220, and CiTOH 101 terminals. I do recall that the real, original VT100 was _not_ as capable as any of its predecessors, supporting the recent comments in this thread about "not the same as a VT102". I would agree. > I have never heard of "padding" for any DEC video terminals other than the VT05. And I have never seen messed up characters at 9600 baud. I never had to fiddle any sort of padding characters (on non-printing/CRT devices). Our oldest terminals _were_ the original VT100, and probably represented at most 5% of our installed terminals. -ethan From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Sep 6 17:01:53 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 15:01:53 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> <00f701d20881$c8cdf570$5a69e050$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <011701d2088a$48601090$d92031b0$@bettercomputing.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 2:52 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 weirdness > > > > > > > >Brad, > >You'll need to make electrical measurements, from the system checkout in > >the manual. You very possibly will have marginal components that need to > >be replaced, but it's best to try to locate which is bad rather that > >to > replace at random. > > >A000 is not the same place as 0100. In the 64K space, they're quite > >distant. > > >Eliminate all but the one RAM board, setting it to 0000. Test that > thoroughly, then add the next at the next RAM space beyond the first card. > >Continue until you have enough RAM for a minimal Flex boot. It > >should > tell you in the version of Flex you're using how much that is (24K?) > It's hard to do everything at ?>the same time, break it down into chunks.. > >Bill > > Thanks Bill. I've tried working with just single RAM boards, but like > I said, the only one that will work at all is this modified board. I > have pics of it here: > > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6WVFiZHdyMHBlNW8&us > p= > sharing > > If I could understand better what it is set up to do, what address > spaces its occupying, I might be able to understand why my 16K DRC > boards don't work when I try to put them to $A000. I'd prefer to work > with one of those boards first since the chips are socketed, and then > I could test the chips individually and be sure one whole board is good. > > I note in one of my pics there, the cap on that modified MP-M looks a > little tarnished on the outside... > > > > >Getting a memory map of your system is an important step. You need to know what memory addresses each board is attempting to use, so that there is no >overlap. Also remember that the ROM board has RAM on it too. You would >not want to map both boards to the same A000 space, but why do you need this at all? What wants free RAM there? >One important rule is that you don't want to overlap RAM. >Can you get to a monitor prompt without any RAM installed other than that which is in the ROM board? >b Based on what I've read, you *have* to have A000 if your CPU card has been modified for Flex 2.0, which I've verified mine has. When mods on the older MP-A cards are done apparently it disables the onboard RAM, and that's where A000 would be. I could reverse the mod but I'm not sure if I want to forgo FLEX use. So yeah, according to SWTPC.com since that mod was done, I have to have a board at $A000. However, setting either of my configurable ram boards to that space doesn't work. The system will only boot with that weird MP-M in. So there's more to it than that.. probably mods above and beyond. I suppose it wouldn't be too bad to just reverse the Flex 2.0 mods and start there. I'm doubtful if I'd ever use it and I could always reverse again if I do.. From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 18:18:21 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:18:21 -0500 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <1E1E5D87-9E22-4A97-BF1C-9720A15F535D@comcast.net> References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> <1E1E5D87-9E22-4A97-BF1C-9720A15F535D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20160906231821.GC14733@gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 06, 2016, Paul Koning wrote: [...] > 19200? I didn't think the VT100 supported that. > > You've got to be careful with that setting, even on devices that claim > to do it. When it first appeared, it was often a "just barely > possible" setting on the clock generator, with an actual bit rate off > a couple of percent from the correct value. If both ends used the > same clock generators, no problem of course. But if one end uses an > accurate one, you may get framing errors. Is this why modems went to 14400 instead of 19200? [...] > On the other hand, flow control issues do not result in "garbage" > characters. The only way you'd get what looks like garbage is if > escape sequences are corrupted so a portion of that sequence is > mistaken for text. If you see garbage in a full screen editor, that > could be the reason. On the other hand, if you're just sending a > large document to the screen and you're seeing garbage, flow control > is not the cause. Interesting. I've been trying to get a WiFi device for the Commodore 8-bits working consistently in 9600 bps mode, and have just been assuming the garbage characters I get when I receive a screenful of text all at once were due to buffer overruns. The garbage characters there look like actual garbage, not like partial CSIs like [3;1m or whatever. > > Earlier on there was some discussion about modern interface devices > with non-compliant "RS232" transceivers. If your RS232 output is > marginal, that could cause garbage. If the clocks are off, ditto. An > oscilloscope could be used to test both those theories. I wonder if it's a similar sort of timing issue between my device and the computer. I'll have to try a few computers and see if behavior varies. -- Eric Christopherson From t.gardner at computer.org Tue Sep 6 18:18:36 2016 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 16:18:36 -0700 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: References: <015701d20892$81b33ae0$8519b0a0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <016801d20894$ff3178e0$fd946aa0$@computer.org> Hi A friend of mine died recently; he was amongst many things an electronics tinkerer and has a closet full of small parts in bin cabinets (resistors, capacitors, ICs, transistors, hardware, etc.). The ICs look mostly old. His wife and kids have no interest and would like to find a good home for these parts rather than recycle the lot. They are in Palo Alto CA Anyone interested in using them could just pick them up in the next week or so. Any other ideas? Really hate to see these go to recycle. Tom (650) 941-5324 From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Sep 6 18:57:29 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 19:57:29 -0400 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <20160906231821.GC14733@gmail.com> References: <061CCC10-9F79-4EE5-A707-CE6F67042BF3@fritzm.org> <1E1E5D87-9E22-4A97-BF1C-9720A15F535D@comcast.net> <20160906231821.GC14733@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Sep 6, 2016, at 7:18 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 06, 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > [...] >> 19200? I didn't think the VT100 supported that. >> >> You've got to be careful with that setting, even on devices that claim >> to do it. When it first appeared, it was often a "just barely >> possible" setting on the clock generator, with an actual bit rate off >> a couple of percent from the correct value. If both ends used the >> same clock generators, no problem of course. But if one end uses an >> accurate one, you may get framing errors. > > Is this why modems went to 14400 instead of 19200? No, that's a matter of what next step modulation scheme had become feasible. > [...] >> On the other hand, flow control issues do not result in "garbage" >> characters. The only way you'd get what looks like garbage is if >> escape sequences are corrupted so a portion of that sequence is >> mistaken for text. If you see garbage in a full screen editor, that >> could be the reason. On the other hand, if you're just sending a >> large document to the screen and you're seeing garbage, flow control >> is not the cause. > > Interesting. I've been trying to get a WiFi device for the Commodore > 8-bits working consistently in 9600 bps mode, and have just been > assuming the garbage characters I get when I receive a screenful of text > all at once were due to buffer overruns. The garbage characters there > look like actual garbage, not like partial CSIs like [3;1m or whatever. It's possible to imagine incompetently designed UARTs that do odd things. But given a normal UART, the first step it performs is to frame the character and the bits. That depends on an adequate signal, and a sufficiently accurate clock. After that step, you have a received character which should be correct. Next, that character has to be buffered and delivered to the consuming system. That probably involves a FIFO, and either an interrupt or DMA. If there is no room to buffer the character, it will be discarded, hopefully with a status in the UART registers to indicate that. But either the character will be buffered as received, or not at all -- it would not be modified at this point. Finally, if an XOFF is received, it has to be seen by the element that acts on it (either something in the serial port hardware, or the driver, or the application software) which has to stop the output stream. If that takes too long, or the output buffers beyond the stop point are too large, too many characters may get out after the XOFF was sent. That would generally cause a buffer overflow, which will drop characters as described above but will not modify them. >> Earlier on there was some discussion about modern interface devices >> with non-compliant "RS232" transceivers. If your RS232 output is >> marginal, that could cause garbage. If the clocks are off, ditto. An >> oscilloscope could be used to test both those theories. > > I wonder if it's a similar sort of timing issue between my device and > the computer. I'll have to try a few computers and see if behavior > varies. You mean at the USB level? Or in a computer serial port? If the latter, the only timing issue I can think of would be baud rate clock issues. BTW, a serial port baud rate generator is a programmable divider. The range of speeds supported has changed over time; early on it was 110 to 9600 (or sometimes lower, say 110 to 2400). The clock crystal was chosen to deliver "sufficiently accurate" frequencies, taking into account the way the bit framing was done in the particular UART design. Some of those generators could do 19200 baud as well but that was often not supported because there the frequency was off too much. If you used it anyway, and both ends use the same generator, all would be well. You might be doing 19,900 baud rather than 19,200, but that's ok so long as the ends agree. But newer serial ports have a much higher upper limit, which means they have a higher frequency crystal and the individual error values for the individual speeds will be different. For the ones that were in spec all along that should not be an issue; for ones that were out of spec, it probably would be. paul From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 6 19:21:20 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 17:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <20160906231821.GC14733@gmail.com> from Eric Christopherson at "Sep 6, 16 06:18:21 pm" Message-ID: <201609070021.u870LKXp37357294@floodgap.com> > Interesting. I've been trying to get a WiFi device for the Commodore > 8-bits working consistently in 9600 bps mode, and have just been > assuming the garbage characters I get when I receive a screenful of text > all at once were due to buffer overruns. The garbage characters there > look like actual garbage, not like partial CSIs like [3;1m or whatever. Unless you're using an ACIA cartridge, 9600bps on the C128 is problematic, and impossible on the C64. If you *are* using an ACIA cartridge, then 9600bps is well within spec and should "just work." I'd look at your driver instead. A buffer overrun should just drop characters, not munge them. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Burglar alarms: For the man who has everything! ---------------------------- From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Sep 6 19:26:22 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 17:26:22 -0700 Subject: Components available Message-ID: <6nt0gxc426cv3sdwm9g7v9l1.1473207982580@email.android.com> I'm all over stuff like that.. especially with my TVT project. ?It has been a real slog finding correct looking vintage caps in particular. ?I wish I lived nearby! Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Tom Gardner Date: 2016-09-06 4:18 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Components available Hi A friend of mine died recently; he was amongst many things an electronics tinkerer and has a closet full of small parts in bin cabinets (resistors, capacitors, ICs, transistors, hardware, etc.).? The ICs look mostly old. His wife and kids have no interest and would like to find a good home for these parts rather than recycle the lot. They are in Palo Alto CA Anyone interested in using them could just pick them up in the next week or so. Any other ideas?? Really hate to see these go to recycle. Tom (650) 941-5324 From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 19:40:26 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 19:40:26 -0500 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <201609070021.u870LKXp37357294@floodgap.com> References: <20160906231821.GC14733@gmail.com> <201609070021.u870LKXp37357294@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20160907004026.GD14733@gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 06, 2016, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Interesting. I've been trying to get a WiFi device for the Commodore > > 8-bits working consistently in 9600 bps mode, and have just been > > assuming the garbage characters I get when I receive a screenful of text > > all at once were due to buffer overruns. The garbage characters there > > look like actual garbage, not like partial CSIs like [3;1m or whatever. > > Unless you're using an ACIA cartridge, 9600bps on the C128 is problematic, > and impossible on the C64. Not quite; someone named Daniel Dallmann found a way to do it on the user port, on both 64 and 128 (in the 1990s, I think). It's commonly called "UP9600". I've only found one terminal program* so far that actually performs well and doesn't drop characters or bring up garbage ones, on the device I mentioned (I have never tried it with a proper modem). I'm not sure what's different about the CIAs in the 64 and 128 but, in the case of this specific hack, it's theoretically easier to deal with a 64 -- or at least a 128 with no 1571 or 1581 -- because the 9600bps hack clobbers the SRQ line that those drives use for fast serial operations. (Things still work if you turn them to slow mode, as happens when you boot directly into 64 mode.) But I find that I never get it to work non-problematically except when I use that one terminal emulator using the C128's VDC for display. I'm not sure how much the 40-column mode's 1MHz clock contributes, and how much VIC emulated 80-column mode and the VIC's scrolling speed, contribute to the problem. (Will have to try it with true 40-column mode, but then the actual viewport will fill with characters and need a scroll twice as fast.) * The terminal emulator I've had success with is NovaTerm 9.6. > > If you *are* using an ACIA cartridge, then 9600bps is well within spec and > should "just work." I'd look at your driver instead. A buffer overrun > should just drop characters, not munge them. I wish I could get more than one-sentence responses from the developer of the device. Hopefully he'll fix it in the future, if I can make a good case for it. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Burglar alarms: For the man who has everything! ---------------------------- -- Eric Christopherson From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 19:59:54 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 19:59:54 -0500 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <20160906064600.GL3629@Update.UU.SE> References: <57C9CA85.8010306@gmail.com> <00d001d20562$97a8c640$c6fa52c0$@gmail.com> <57CDE83B.3050101@gmail.com> <20160906064600.GL3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <57CF668A.4010000@gmail.com> On 09/06/2016 01:46 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 04:48:43PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> I think I'll see about getting the M8014, M8012, M8013 and M8061 boards >> tomorrow. > > How much do you pay for these? Do you intend to pass them on? At the moment my plan is to try and digest exactly what I have, and what I might need in order to make something functional (certainly not a bells-and-whistles -11, but something that'll just run some code). A rack/case is low priority, but obviously there's the small matter of currently having no backplane or PSUs :-) (although the PSU side of things could doubtless be rigged, at least for a small-scale setup) Longer term I might be looking at trades or selling some stuff to go towards restoration of some of the other items in my collection, but I really dislike the idea of passing untested things on, so that still hinges on acquiring a backplane/PSUs/other ephemera so that I can at least assess operational status first. Current board list in my possession is as follows: __Digital boards__ M7856 ; DL11-W RS-232 SLU & RTC M7951 (x2) ; DUV11 sync-serial interface M7957 ; DZV11, 4 LINE ASYNC MUX M8012 ; bootstrap/terminator M8013 ; RLV11 RL01/02 M8014 ; RLV11 RL01/02 M8043 (x3) ; DLV11-J quad-port serial M8044-DB ; 32kw memory M8044-DF ; 32Kw memory M8059-KF ; 128Kw memory M8061 (x4) ; RLV12 RL02 interface M8067-KF ; 128Kw memory M8067-LP ; 256Kw memory M8186 (x2) ; 11/23 CPU M8189 ; 11/23+ CPU (and has the CIS option fitted, I think) M8190-AE ; 11/83 CPU M8190-AB ; 11/83 CPU (or /73??) w/FPU M8192 ; 11/73 CPU __Emulex boards__ TU03 ; Pertec-compatible tape controller SU02 (x2) ; SMD (??) controller CU02 ; serial mux QD32 ; SMD (??) controller QD33 ; SMD controller QD21 ; ESDI controller __Misc boards__ Dilog CQ1610 ; 16-port serial NS980110014 ; Natsemi 1MB (I think) DRAM board Clearpoint ; 4MB DRAM board cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 6 20:00:33 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <20160907004026.GD14733@gmail.com> from Eric Christopherson at "Sep 6, 16 07:40:26 pm" Message-ID: <201609070100.u8710Xmg16581464@floodgap.com> > > > Interesting. I've been trying to get a WiFi device for the Commodore > > > 8-bits working consistently in 9600 bps mode, and have just been > > > assuming the garbage characters I get when I receive a screenful of text > > > all at once were due to buffer overruns. The garbage characters there > > > look like actual garbage, not like partial CSIs like [3;1m or whatever. > > > > Unless you're using an ACIA cartridge, 9600bps on the C128 is problematic, > > and impossible on the C64. > > Not quite; someone named Daniel Dallmann found a way to do it on the > user port, on both 64 and 128 (in the 1990s, I think). It's commonly > called "UP9600". Ah, yes. I vaguely remember that. I remember it being tricky, too. Life is a lot easier with a Turbo232 or equivalent ... > But I find that I never get it to work > non-problematically except when I use that one terminal emulator using > the C128's VDC for display. I would imagine 2MHz mode certainly makes a difference here. I don't know if NovaTerm runs the 8502 at that speed, but I would be surprised if it didn't. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I may be underpaid, but I underwork just to make it even. ------------------ From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 20:01:09 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 20:01:09 -0500 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <20160907004026.GD14733@gmail.com> References: <20160906231821.GC14733@gmail.com> <201609070021.u870LKXp37357294@floodgap.com> <20160907004026.GD14733@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160907010109.GE14733@gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 06, 2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Tue, Sep 06, 2016, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Interesting. I've been trying to get a WiFi device for the Commodore > > > 8-bits working consistently in 9600 bps mode, and have just been > > > assuming the garbage characters I get when I receive a screenful of text > > > all at once were due to buffer overruns. The garbage characters there > > > look like actual garbage, not like partial CSIs like [3;1m or whatever. > > > > Unless you're using an ACIA cartridge, 9600bps on the C128 is problematic, > > and impossible on the C64. > > Not quite; someone named Daniel Dallmann found a way to do it on the > user port, on both 64 and 128 (in the 1990s, I think). It's commonly > called "UP9600". I've only found one terminal program* so far that > actually performs well and doesn't drop characters or bring up garbage > ones, on the device I mentioned (I have never tried it with a proper > modem). > > I'm not sure what's different about the CIAs in the 64 and 128 I see a few mentions online about the 128 supporting 9600 natively, but no real details. Do you have any to share? I wonder if it'd be worth turning off the device's UP9600 support and seeing if the 128 will still talk 9600 to it. (If I do keep it on, apparently the 128 will be able to do 19200 -- but I'm not holding my breath, based on my experience with 9600.) > but, in > the case of this specific hack, it's theoretically easier to deal with a > 64 -- or at least a 128 with no 1571 or 1581 -- because the 9600bps hack > clobbers the SRQ line that those drives use for fast serial operations. > (Things still work if you turn them to slow mode, as happens when you > boot directly into 64 mode.) But I find that I never get it to work > non-problematically except when I use that one terminal emulator using > the C128's VDC for display. I'm not sure how much the 40-column mode's > 1MHz clock contributes, and how much VIC emulated 80-column mode and the > VIC's scrolling speed, contribute to the problem. (Will have to try it > with true 40-column mode, but then the actual viewport will fill with > characters and need a scroll twice as fast.) > > * The terminal emulator I've had success with is NovaTerm 9.6. > > > > > If you *are* using an ACIA cartridge, then 9600bps is well within spec and > > should "just work." I'd look at your driver instead. A buffer overrun > > should just drop characters, not munge them. > > I wish I could get more than one-sentence responses from the developer > of the device. Hopefully he'll fix it in the future, if I can make a > good case for it. -- Eric Christopherson From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 6 20:16:23 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:16:23 -0700 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: <016801d20894$ff3178e0$fd946aa0$@computer.org> References: <015701d20892$81b33ae0$8519b0a0$@computer.org> <016801d20894$ff3178e0$fd946aa0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> On 9/6/16 4:18 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > A friend of mine died recently; he was amongst many things an electronics tinkerer and has a closet full of small parts in bin cabinets (resistors, capacitors, ICs, transistors, hardware, etc.). There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, and FFT processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) with full documentation. I walked out of the donations meeting with the other curators today who thought it was a piece of s**t and didn't want to take it, calling it a 'dumpster fire' Art was a friend of mine. Hopefully it can go someplace where it can be appreciated. Talk to Tom about it, unfortunately, time is short. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 6 20:21:22 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <20160907010109.GE14733@gmail.com> from Eric Christopherson at "Sep 6, 16 08:01:09 pm" Message-ID: <201609070121.u871LMmA8585738@floodgap.com> > I see a few mentions online about the 128 supporting 9600 natively, but > no real details. Do you have any to share? IIRC -- and I haven't had to write Commodore user port serial code in a looooong time -- it's much like a 64 doing 2400bps on the user port, it's just bitbanging it at a higher rate instead of using the Kernal, and at 2MHz. 4800bps is definitely achievable and considered stable. I suppose you could overdrive it to 9600 and I've heard of it being done, but I've never written such code myself. When I used Kermit on my 128 as my means of Internet access, I had a SwiftLink. > I wonder if it'd be worth turning off the device's UP9600 support and > seeing if the 128 will still talk 9600 to it. (If I do keep it on, > apparently the 128 will be able to do 19200 -- but I'm not holding my > breath, based on my experience with 9600.) I would be very impressed to get 19.2k out of that! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- See You Next Wednesday ----------------------------------------------------- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Sep 6 20:58:04 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 21:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex Message-ID: <20160907015804.03F8418C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jules Richardson > M8190-AE ; 11/83 CPU > M8190-AB ; 11/83 CPU (or /73??) w/FPU As far as I know, all the M8190's are _basically_ the same: they are the KDJ11-B CPU, which support the PMI memory bus, can operate with a KTJ11-B to provide a UNIBUS, etc. They are the CPU in an 11/83 (with QBUS only backplane) and the 11/84 (with QBUS/UNIBUS backplane). The various models of the M8190 vary in details (e.g. although all have a socket for the FPJ11 floating point accelerator chip, the earlier ones don't work properly with it), including the clock speed (15/18 MHz, etc). The 11/73 uses the KDJ11-A M8192, a completely differente card. Noel From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Sep 6 21:02:47 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 19:02:47 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: <011701d2088a$48601090$d92031b0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> <00f701d20881$c8cdf570$5a69e050$@bettercomputing.net> <011701d2088a$48601090$d92031b0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <013001d208ab$ef42d4d0$cdc87e70$@bettercomputing.net> I did a capacitor check on the modified MP-M board. On the 100uf/16v one down at the bottom center, the most I get is 430uf and then it starts dropping. I can't seem to get a proper reading out of the same one on the upper right.. that's the same on both MP-M boards. So I'm wondering if I'd be best to try replacing that cap and see what happens. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Sep 6 21:29:14 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 19:29:14 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: <013001d208ab$ef42d4d0$cdc87e70$@bettercomputing.net> References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> <00f701d20881$c8cdf570$5a69e050$@bettercomputing.net> <011701d2088a$48601090$d92031b0$@bettercomputing.net> <013001d208ab$ef42d4d0$cdc87e70$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <013101d208af$a0f73420$e2e59c60$@bettercomputing.net> I don't have the right caps to try with the MP-M so I'll have to wait. But I did try again setting my DRC boards to A000. And when the machine is turned on, it does respond, but it just produces garbage characters on the terminal. Sometimes, two, sometimes three, or a whole line of them. I thought ok, maybe it's time to get back to basics and return this thing to stock form. However, I noticed the CPU board has *also* been altered. There is a second crystal on it next to the original and a 740LS00 piggybacked on top of another chip. Oy! Not sure what's going to happen if I try to put the rest of it back to stock. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 21:32:27 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 21:32:27 -0500 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <20160907015804.03F8418C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160907015804.03F8418C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57CF7C3B.7040203@gmail.com> On 09/06/2016 08:58 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jules Richardson > > > M8190-AE ; 11/83 CPU > > M8190-AB ; 11/83 CPU (or /73??) w/FPU > > As far as I know, all the M8190's are _basically_ the same: they are the > KDJ11-B CPU, which support the PMI memory bus, can operate with a KTJ11-B to > provide a UNIBUS, etc. They are the CPU in an 11/83 (with QBUS only > backplane) and the 11/84 (with QBUS/UNIBUS backplane). I got the /73 reference from a post of Pete's last year: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2015-February/002612.html ... but I' m guessing he just meant that the slower ones work at the same speed as a true /73? Unfortunately there aren't any markings on the crystal on the -AB board (well, there probably are, but on the underside and it would have to be desoldered) so I don't know if it's a 15MHz or 18MHz part. J. From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 22:02:53 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 22:02:53 -0500 Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <201609070121.u871LMmA8585738@floodgap.com> References: <20160907010109.GE14733@gmail.com> <201609070121.u871LMmA8585738@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20160907030253.GF14733@gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 06, 2016, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I see a few mentions online about the 128 supporting 9600 natively, but > > no real details. Do you have any to share? > > IIRC -- and I haven't had to write Commodore user port serial code in a > looooong time -- it's much like a 64 doing 2400bps on the user port, it's > just bitbanging it at a higher rate instead of using the Kernal, and at > 2MHz. 4800bps is definitely achievable and considered stable. I suppose you > could overdrive it to 9600 and I've heard of it being done, but I've never > written such code myself. > > When I used Kermit on my 128 as my means of Internet access, I had a > SwiftLink. > > > I wonder if it'd be worth turning off the device's UP9600 support and > > seeing if the 128 will still talk 9600 to it. (If I do keep it on, > > apparently the 128 will be able to do 19200 -- but I'm not holding my > > breath, based on my experience with 9600.) > > I would be very impressed to get 19.2k out of that! Supposedly the CommodoreServer.com service is capable of 38400 -- on an unmodified 64. I haven't gotten it to work yet (though the WiModem is supposed to be capable). -- Eric Christopherson From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Sep 6 22:24:02 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 23:24:02 -0400 Subject: Components available Message-ID: <83de3.3880298b.4500e252@aol.com> Yes it needs to be saved... and yet with all the extra and duplicate stuff CHM has I bet they do not have one of these yet shun it... curious. kick their shins for me Al ok? Unfortunately not close for me to pickup. all this stuff is all part of the history.... Ed# In a message dated 9/6/2016 6:11:35 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, aek at bitsavers.org writes: On 9/6/16 4:18 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > A friend of mine died recently; he was amongst many things an electronics tinkerer and has a closet full of small parts in bin cabinets (resistors, capacitors, ICs, transistors, hardware, etc.). There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, and FFT processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) with full documentation. I walked out of the donations meeting with the other curators today who thought it was a piece of s**t and didn't want to take it, calling it a 'dumpster fire' Art was a friend of mine. Hopefully it can go someplace where it can be appreciated. Talk to Tom about it, unfortunately, time is short. From isking at uw.edu Tue Sep 6 22:43:02 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 20:43:02 -0700 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <20160906180413.348E718C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160906180413.348E718C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: IMHO there have been some really fun conversations spun off of such posts, whether of the nature of "What the h*ll is that?", or "What moron would charge that much for that?", or even "Ah, I remember...." I agree that the volume is low enough and the entertainment value high enough to leave things be. -- Ian On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: js > > > That would be my preference as well. A "ccebay at classiccmp.org" > list. > > I think we all know that wouldn't work, for a number of reasons. > > > Or at least in an indication in the subject line "ebay: [topic]" so > > they can get filtered out. > > This, however, I can definitely see as a good move. I will add such a tag > to > any eBay notification posts I make, and I encourage everyone else who posts > such to do the same. > > > > From: Peter Coghlan > > >> It's a tiny bit more work to use them > > > Any given posting to a mailing list is sent by one person and read by > > many. If there is a small effort to be made, it makes more sense for > > the sender to make it once than all the interested recipients to have > > to duplicate the effort. > > Excellent point. > > And the "eBay:" tag idea follow this principle too, I will note... So let's > remember to add that tag, everyone! > > Noel > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From isking at uw.edu Tue Sep 6 22:45:02 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 20:45:02 -0700 Subject: Apple IIGS on epay - local pickup in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ack, I wish I'd seen this sooner! I'm in Seattle.... -- Ian On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Eric Christopherson < echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > On Sep 5, 2016 2:36 PM, "Eric Christopherson" > wrote: > > > > On Sep 5, 2016 1:21 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > > > > > On Sep 5, 2016 11:07 AM, "Eric Christopherson" < > echristopherson at gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Anyone want this? Less than 4 his remaining. > > > > > > > > Actually I'd love to have someone win it for me and sell it to me at > > > VCFMW, > > > > but I've never arranged such a thing so I don't know what to estimate > the > > > > cost to me would be. (Plus it probably won't stay at $49 for long.) > I'd > > > bid > > > > on it myself and then worry about getting it to me, but they > explicitly > > > day > > > > they don't accept third-party shippers. > > > > > > Item 401179185305 at Seattle Goodwill? Where are you located? > > > > Yes, that's the one. Sorry, just forgot to paste the link - - wasn't > trying to keep others from finding it. > > > > http://m.ebay.com/itm/401179185305?_mwBanner=1 > > > > > > > > If you bid and won you could probably get someone on the list to pick > it up > > > for you and ship it to you after you paid for the item and the > shipping. > > > > > > -Glen > > I didn't manage to win it, but Seattle Goodwill did tell me they would be > fine with having someone pick it up for me. > > It only doubled in price... Pity. > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Sep 6 22:59:03 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 22:59:03 -0500 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> References: <015701d20892$81b33ae0$8519b0a0$@computer.org> <016801d20894$ff3178e0$fd946aa0$@computer.org> <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20160907035903.GC9908@lonesome.com> On Tue, Sep 06, 2016 at 06:16:23PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, > and FFT processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) with full > documentation. I think it would be a damned shame if this went to recycling. I can't drive the 30 hours to come get it though. (tbh the '99 pickup truck does not have that kind of trip left in it anyways.) mcl From jason at smbfc.net Tue Sep 6 23:09:27 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 21:09:27 -0700 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: <20160907035903.GC9908@lonesome.com> References: <015701d20892$81b33ae0$8519b0a0$@computer.org> <016801d20894$ff3178e0$fd946aa0$@computer.org> <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> <20160907035903.GC9908@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 09/06/2016 08:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Tue, Sep 06, 2016 at 06:16:23PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >> There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, >> and FFT processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) with full >> documentation. > I think it would be a damned shame if this went to recycling. I can't > drive the 30 hours to come get it though. (tbh the '99 pickup truck > does not have that kind of trip left in it anyways.) > > mcl That sounds amazing. I'm in Seattle. My time is pretty tight these days, but if someone up here was interested, I might be persuaded to do a tag-team driving run over a weekend. My '81 Ford has plenty of life left in her. I don't think I'm interested in it personally though, as I really have no idea what an Unicomp minicomputer is in the grand scheme of things... --Jason From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Sep 6 23:12:28 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 00:12:28 -0400 Subject: Components available Message-ID: <8439b.7723a9b5.4500edac@aol.com> I just do not do the long drive well any more I remember I would drive straight from AZ to San Jose non stop.... Now I think I would have to break it into a 4 day trip to be comfortable. When it comes to large trucks I just do not do them any more. The cost of shipping has gotten so high ( or maybe it is just the money is just worth less now) Ed# (wishing he was 40 years younger sometimes!) _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 9/6/2016 8:59:10 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, linimon at lonesome.com writes: On Tue, Sep 06, 2016 at 06:16:23PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, > and FFT processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) with full > documentation. I think it would be a damned shame if this went to recycling. I can't drive the 30 hours to come get it though. (tbh the '99 pickup truck does not have that kind of trip left in it anyways.) mcl From ba600 at ncf.ca Tue Sep 6 23:27:31 2016 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 00:27:31 -0400 Subject: Complete DisplayWriter on eBay In-Reply-To: <006b01d2032f$14324230$3c96c690$@net> References: <006b01d2032f$14324230$3c96c690$@net> Message-ID: <4839188.bxHUgE4GsV@linux-zlo2> On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 19:26:26 Ali wrote: > Well, looks like the seller cancelled the bids and suddenly item is no > longer available. Would like to believe it is a mistake but we all know > better... > > -Ali I have a compete unit in Ottawa if there's interest. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 6 23:35:46 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 21:35:46 -0700 Subject: Complete DisplayWriter on eBay In-Reply-To: <4839188.bxHUgE4GsV@linux-zlo2> References: <006b01d2032f$14324230$3c96c690$@net> <4839188.bxHUgE4GsV@linux-zlo2> Message-ID: On 9/6/2016 9:27 PM, Mike wrote: > On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 19:26:26 Ali wrote: >> Well, looks like the seller cancelled the bids and suddenly item is no >> longer available. Would like to believe it is a mistake but we all know >> better... >> >> -Ali > > I have a compete unit in Ottawa if there's interest. > > Looks like it's up again: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-Display-Writer-/201663310218?hash=item2ef411e98a:g:McUAAOSwv2JXwaQw -Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Sep 6 23:56:22 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 21:56:22 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: <013101d208af$a0f73420$e2e59c60$@bettercomputing.net> References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> <00f701d20881$c8cdf570$5a69e050$@bettercomputing.net> <011701d2088a$48601090$d92031b0$@bettercomputing.net> <013001d208ab$ef42d4d0$cdc87e70$@bettercomputing.net> <013101d208af$a0f73420$e2e59c60$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <013801d208c4$2f24d180$8d6e7480$@bettercomputing.net> Okay I think I'm starting to figure this out a bit. Beginning with basics, I cleaned up the contacts on all the SS50 pins. The system seems to power up more reliably now. Next, I poked around in the monitor to figure out exactly which addresses the modified MP-M board was dealing with. Since it has 64 chips on it (32 ICs x with 32 more piggybacked), I assumed it probably has 16K. I figured out it went from 8000 to around BFFF. I think. So next I installed the DR 16K boards. I configured one for 0000-3FFF, and the second for C000-FFFF. So that leaves 4000-7FFF uncovered. So now I went to the second MP-M board. This board has 8K installed, and I assumed it followed the MP-MX specs for upgrading to that. But, it doesn't. There were several cut traces and jumper wires. I have no idea why or what for. So I went and reversed all of that, and then set the address jumper to start at 4000. That gave me 4K more of RAM, covering 4000-4FFF. I don't know why it didn't give me 8K, up to 5FFF. I'm thinking it has something to do with the way it was modded. At any rate, the machine is almost fully decked out. I was able to load TSC Basic without any issues. Yay! So I think next goal is figure out how to use the RAM diags properly and then sic those on it and see how things check out. From cramcram at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 11:11:07 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 09:11:07 -0700 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: References: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: It seems to me that one possible solution would be to whip up a PLL in a CPLD or FPGA to generate 12 sector timing from a 16 sector pack or vice versa. On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 8:58 AM, wrote: > I'd like to trade two media. > > > Am 06.09.2016 um 17:48 schrieb Noel Chiappa : > > > > So I have a fairly large group of 16-sector RK05 packs (i.e. PDP-8, -12) > which > > I have no use for, which I would like to trade for 12-sector RK05 packs > (i.e. > > PDP-11). Anyone have any of the latter, and need the former? > > > > Alternatively, if anyone has any head-crashed 12-sector RK05 packs, I > would be > > interested in buying them (or trading something else) for them. (I am > reliably > > informed that one can replace the platter on an RK05 pack without too > much > > work, so I'd transplant the 12-sector hubs into the packs I already > have). > > > > (Replies to me, please, not the whole list - unless there's some point > you > > wish to make which would be of general interest.) > > > > Noel > From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Sep 6 11:23:25 2016 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:23:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROM type identification Message-ID: Greetings; My googlefu is failing me and I was wondering if someone might be able to help me identify one of the boot ROMs present in an M9312 bootstrap/term board. The board has three ROMs, an RX01 (042130), an RX02 (042131) and then a mystery code - 043127. The M9312 ROM identification table does not list this ROM code - I suspect it _might_ be for a DSD combined 8" drive and Winchester disk box, but I'm under the impression this would appear as a DU device, and attempting to boot from DU gets an ILL CMD, suggesting otherwise. I tried all of the other possible mnemonics listed in the M9312 manual, so it doesn't appear to piggy-backing on any of those either. My thanks; - JP From anders at abc80.net Tue Sep 6 12:32:45 2016 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 19:32:45 +0200 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33e510cd-f0b2-5e66-3307-730dd60c45f6@abc80.net> > So what are the other options? > * Trying to repair the unit. Every plane is soldered together with the ones > nearby to convey the X/Y signals. This can probably be undone with a > patience and soldering braid. But what are the chance that the X/Y wires > gets lose then? Are those soldered or welded into place? > > Then it would be quite tricky to just identify where it is actually broken. > Any ideas for how to do this? A microscope of course. Any other ideas? > Applying an electrical field between the wire and something else and try to > detect it? A stereoscopic microscope and a lot of patience is a good staring point. > Repair. If the wire is broken in the mat it is probably not to difficult to > pull out the broken parts. But then the new wire has to be spliced in. What > is t he best technique to do that? > How to push in the new wire in the matrix? I now that Anders was able to do > this with a broken X-wire in a PDP-8/L stack. I used a pair of tweezers to push the new thread in, one core at a time. You should try to change as small part as possible. I just changed the thread thru the first 64 cores, then I joined the two threads together in the middle of the core plan. I then used nail polish as an isolatur. I didn't thought I had something to lose to try to repair the existing core stack. Without it the computer is really not working at all. I'll think you should try to repair it. Start to bring out the core stack and then turn it around for a while until you are brave enough. I found some pictures on stacks to the 8/L in pieces before I started on the internet, that helped me to understand what I had to master. /Anders From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 19:11:16 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 20:11:16 -0400 Subject: Odd memory error in PDP-11/04 Message-ID: Hi, All, I've finally tracked down the simplest problems in my PDP-11/04 that's been sitting unused for many years (the one that we formerly used as a hardware test platform for Unibus COMBOARDs 30 years ago). The primary faults were a half-bad 7474 in the console (the flip-flop attached to the Run LED was not toggling when it should) _and_ an apparently bad DL11-W that isn't passing grant - for now replaced with a fully-functional module, but to be debugged later). What's happening now, since I can finally enter octal at the console, is when I change one location, 000000 for example, it echoes across multiple locations... To whit: I use the console to fill 000000 to 000040 with zeros, and verify they are all zeros. I deposit 177777 in 000000 and I get back the following... @L 1000 @D 177777 @L 1000 @E 001000 177777 @E 001002 004000 @E 001004 004000 @E 001006 004000 @E 001010 004000 @E 001012 004000 @E 001014 004000 @E 001016 004000 @E 001020 177777 @E 001022 004000 @E 001024 004000 @E 001026 004000 @E 001030 004000 @E 001032 004000 @E 001034 004000 @E 001036 004000 @E 001040 004000 @E 001042 177773 @E 001044 177777 I replace the 000000 at 000000 and get all zeros. So I appear to have two problems: 1) Depositing any value is echoed 000020 later. 2) Setting D10 in location 000000 results in D10 set in all the locations I have few spares for this machine. Lots of spares for my 11/34 (which I will want to test at some point soon), but this box (BA11-L) has a DD11DK not a DD11-PK, so I can't just upgrade in place. Does this sound like a dodgy CPU, dodgy RAM or both? I have this minimally loaded... M7263 PDP-11/04 processor M7847 16K MOS RAM (half loaded) M9312 with console ROM and papertape boot ROM (I have more ROMs available) M7856 - DL11-W strapped to defaults as a console/RTC many dual-height grant cards M9302 terminator UA-11 debugging board Oh... and I see while typing that it just started halting immediately after reset... so something just broke while it was powered on and running the console ODT. :-( I guess I'm back to low-level hardware debugging again. But in the meantime, any CPU/RAM symptom suggestions? I have the prints. I'm just looking for any "oh, yeah! That happened to me!" with "...and I fixed it by testing X and replacing the bad ones". All this so I can make a test bed for my M9313 boards and get them working again to fix the DWBUA on my VAX 8300... -ethan From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 00:12:57 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 22:12:57 -0700 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: References: <015701d20892$81b33ae0$8519b0a0$@computer.org> <016801d20894$ff3178e0$fd946aa0$@computer.org> <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> <20160907035903.GC9908@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <643d07fd-18d7-7fec-5950-d0042d11d746@gmail.com> On 9/6/16 9:09 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > On 09/06/2016 08:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 06, 2016 at 06:16:23PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >>> There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, >>> and FFT processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) with full >>> documentation. >> I think it would be a damned shame if this went to recycling. I can't >> drive the 30 hours to come get it though. (tbh the '99 pickup truck >> does not have that kind of trip left in it anyways.) >> >> mcl > That sounds amazing. I'm in Seattle. My time is pretty tight these > days, but if someone up here was interested, I might be persuaded to > do a tag-team driving run over a weekend. My '81 Ford has plenty of > life left in her. > > I don't think I'm interested in it personally though, as I really have > no idea what an Unicomp minicomputer is in the grand scheme of things... > > --Jason > I'd join you on that trip, except I have no idea where I'd fit another 6' rack at the moment... ah, physical space is a harsh mistress... - Josh From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Sep 7 00:16:21 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 00:16:21 -0500 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: <8439b.7723a9b5.4500edac@aol.com> References: <8439b.7723a9b5.4500edac@aol.com> Message-ID: <20160907051620.GA10151@lonesome.com> On Wed, Sep 07, 2016 at 12:12:28AM -0400, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > I remember I would drive straight from AZ to San Jose non stop ... Yeah. I can reasonably do 7 hours; 8 if I really push it but you don't want to be in the car with me as I fuss and spit. And you damned kids can get off all of our lawns, too! mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Sep 7 00:16:21 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 00:16:21 -0500 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: <8439b.7723a9b5.4500edac@aol.com> References: <8439b.7723a9b5.4500edac@aol.com> Message-ID: <20160907051620.GA10151@lonesome.com> On Wed, Sep 07, 2016 at 12:12:28AM -0400, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > I remember I would drive straight from AZ to San Jose non stop ... Yeah. I can reasonably do 7 hours; 8 if I really push it but you don't want to be in the car with me as I fuss and spit. And you damned kids can get off all of our lawns, too! mcl From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Sep 7 00:25:03 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 01:25:03 -0400 Subject: Components available Message-ID: <8498b.e4e15fc.4500feaf@aol.com> In a message dated 9/6/2016 10:13:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, derschjo at gmail.com writes: On 9/6/16 9:09 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > On 09/06/2016 08:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 06, 2016 at 06:16:23PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >>> There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, >>> and FFT processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) with full >>> documentation. >> I think it would be a damned shame if this went to recycling. I can't >> drive the 30 hours to come get it though. (tbh the '99 pickup truck >> does not have that kind of trip left in it anyways.) >> >> mcl > That sounds amazing. I'm in Seattle. My time is pretty tight these > days, but if someone up here was interested, I might be persuaded to > do a tag-team driving run over a weekend. My '81 Ford has plenty of > life left in her. > > I don't think I'm interested in it personally though, as I really have > no idea what an Unicomp minicomputer is in the grand scheme of things... > > --Jason > I'd join you on that trip, except I have no idea where I'd fit another 6' rack at the moment... ah, physical space is a harsh mistress... - Josh think of it this way... if you have an 8 something foot ceiling and you have a row of 6 foot tacks there is room for one more rack.... LAYING ACROSS THE TO SIDEWISE! Ed# From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 7 00:43:05 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 22:43:05 -0700 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> References: <015701d20892$81b33ae0$8519b0a0$@computer.org> <016801d20894$ff3178e0$fd946aa0$@computer.org> <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1878F21B-EAE2-4C6C-847D-F776E5ACE51A@sbcglobal.net> . > On Sep 6, 2016, at 6:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > >> On 9/6/16 4:18 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >> >> A friend of mine died recently; he was amongst many things an electronics tinkerer and has a closet full of small parts in bin cabinets (resistors, capacitors, ICs, transistors, hardware, etc.). > > > There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, and FFT processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) > with full documentation. > > I walked out of the donations meeting with the other curators today who thought it was a piece of s**t and didn't want > to take it, calling it a 'dumpster fire' > > Art was a friend of mine. > > Hopefully it can go someplace where it can be appreciated. > Talk to Tom about it, unfortunately, time is short. > I have room for it. I emailed and called Tom so at least it should not get scrapped. Wish it had a real front panel though. Bob Sent, poorly, from my iPad From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Sep 7 00:43:33 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 22:43:33 -0700 Subject: Complete DisplayWriter on eBay In-Reply-To: <4839188.bxHUgE4GsV@linux-zlo2> References: <006b01d2032f$14324230$3c96c690$@net> <4839188.bxHUgE4GsV@linux-zlo2> Message-ID: <00b001d208ca$c6b173e0$54145ba0$@net> > I have a compete unit in Ottawa if there's interest. As in Ottawa, Canada? If so my significant interest diminished as I imagined the cost of S&H. No offense ;)... -Ali From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 00:47:04 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 23:47:04 -0600 Subject: Why V.32bis modems are 14400 bps rather than 19200 bps (was Re: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100?) Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Is this why modems went to 14400 instead of 19200? No, that was because the V.32 modulation was easily extended to 12000 and 14400 bps by slightly expanding the QAM signal constellation, requiring a little better SNR on the line, but keeping other parameters the same and increasing the constellation size enough to get 19200 bps was not expected to work within available SNR on most POTS lines. That didn't stop some vendors from offering 19200 as a proprietary extension to V.32bis. It's known unofficially as V.32ter, but was never actually ratified as an ITU-T V-series recommendation. V.32 at 9600bps uses 1800Hz carrier, 2400 baud, and 32 carrier states (constellation points) using one trellis coding bit for 4 data bits, so effectively 4 data bits per baud, and 2400 * 4 = 9600 bps. V.32bis at 14400bps uses the same carrier and baud rate, and 128 carrier states (constellation points), with slightly more complex trellis coding, so effectively 6 data bits per baud, and 2400 * 6 = 14400 bps. (There's also a fallback to 12000 bps) V.32 and V.32bis are synchronous modulation, and when used with V.42 error control and a normal serial port configuration of 8N1, the modem effectively removes the start and stop bits (20% overhead on the serial port), though framing is added so that the throughput doesn't go up by that full amount. This is noticeable when running such a modem with a higher serial port baud rate (requiring flow control). For instance, a V.32 9600bps modem without V.42 would be able to transfer 960 characters per second, but with V.42 and a higher serial port rate with flow control, can exceed that. V.42bis compression can further improve the throughput provided that the data is compressible. To go beyond 14400 bps with conventional modulation and typical POTS line SNR requires more complex techniques, used in V.34 for up to 33600 bps. Abandoning conventional modulation and introducing a direct dependency on the PCM line code used within the PSTN allows up to 56000 bps PCM downstream and 33600 bps using V.34 modulation upstream (V.90), or 56000 bps PCM downstream and 48000 bps PCM upstream (V.92) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 00:58:24 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 01:58:24 -0400 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: References: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Marc Howard wrote: > It seems to me that one possible solution would be to whip up a PLL in a > CPLD or FPGA to generate 12 sector timing from a 16 sector pack or vice > versa. This is one of the recurring conversations here - 12-sector packs are abundant compared to 16-sector packs, and the only difference is the slits in the hub and the consequent formatting on the matching controller... -ethan From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 01:10:58 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 01:10:58 -0500 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I updated the project to include optional OS/8 support. I won't say I've tested it extensively, but it does seem to be working as expected in SimH, anyways. I updated the README to reflect the additions. The directory structure was also updated to something more sane. The keen observer will note that I also changed up some of the debugging features which are likely to not be useful to anyone other than the author...and even then, I only used the features a few times when getting the thing running initially. But, it's there if you need it, all configurable through the switch register as detailed in the source. Glad some folks got a kick out of it enough to try it out! Feel free to suggest improvements where you see fit. I was thinking about adding support to read keystrokes from a file for macro programmability...but that might be too absurd even for this project. Maybe the HP-41C simulator is next... :) Kyle From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Sep 7 01:51:34 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 08:51:34 +0200 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: References: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160907065133.GO3629@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Sep 07, 2016 at 01:58:24AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Marc Howard wrote: > > It seems to me that one possible solution would be to whip up a PLL in a > > CPLD or FPGA to generate 12 sector timing from a 16 sector pack or vice > > versa. > > This is one of the recurring conversations here - 12-sector packs are > abundant compared to 16-sector packs, and the only difference is the > slits in the hub and the consequent formatting on the matching > controller... > > -ethan I do recall discussion of manufacturing new hubs but not the outcome. I imagine that someone with access to a lathe and mill would be able to make new hubs with good enough tolerances. Is there some caveat to doing this (besides finding someone with a lathe and mill?) /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Sep 7 01:55:40 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 08:55:40 +0200 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> References: <015701d20892$81b33ae0$8519b0a0$@computer.org> <016801d20894$ff3178e0$fd946aa0$@computer.org> <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20160907065539.GP3629@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Sep 06, 2016 at 06:16:23PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > I walked out of the donations meeting with the other curators today > who thought it was a piece of s**t and didn't want to take it, calling > it a 'dumpster fire' > Wow, what an attitude.. I don't know much about Unicomps but should lesser know machines but unusual machines be preserved as well? /P From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Sep 7 01:55:36 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 23:55:36 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROM type identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e6b6f39-3679-08b9-31d4-d2b423556ce5@alum.mit.edu> On 9/6/2016 9:23 AM, JP Hindin wrote: > > Greetings; > > My googlefu is failing me and I was wondering if someone might be able to help > me identify one of the boot ROMs present in an M9312 bootstrap/term board. The > board has three ROMs, an RX01 (042130), an RX02 (042131) and then a mystery > code - 043127. > > The M9312 ROM identification table does not list this ROM code - I suspect it > _might_ be for a DSD combined 8" drive and Winchester disk box, but I'm under > the impression this would appear as a DU device, and attempting to boot from > DU gets an ILL CMD, suggesting otherwise. I tried all of the other possible > mnemonics listed in the M9312 manual, so it doesn't appear to piggy-backing on > any of those either. > > My thanks; > > - JP > Octal word 042130 decodes as ascii "DX", which is the M9312 boot mnemonic for the RX01 drive/RX11 controller combo. Octal word 042131 decodes as ascii "DY", which is the M9312 boot mnemonic for the RX02 drive/RX211 controller combo. Octal word 043127 decodes as ascii "FW", which is not a standard M9312 boot mnemonic. Probably a third party manufacturer custom boot prom. FYI the above octal words are programmed in the first word of each boot PROM, so they are accessible at locations 773000, You can find program listings and hex PROM images of all the known M9312 devices here: http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/, including the DX and DY PROMs. Don From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Sep 7 01:55:36 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 23:55:36 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROM type identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e6b6f39-3679-08b9-31d4-d2b423556ce5@alum.mit.edu> On 9/6/2016 9:23 AM, JP Hindin wrote: > > Greetings; > > My googlefu is failing me and I was wondering if someone might be able to help > me identify one of the boot ROMs present in an M9312 bootstrap/term board. The > board has three ROMs, an RX01 (042130), an RX02 (042131) and then a mystery > code - 043127. > > The M9312 ROM identification table does not list this ROM code - I suspect it > _might_ be for a DSD combined 8" drive and Winchester disk box, but I'm under > the impression this would appear as a DU device, and attempting to boot from > DU gets an ILL CMD, suggesting otherwise. I tried all of the other possible > mnemonics listed in the M9312 manual, so it doesn't appear to piggy-backing on > any of those either. > > My thanks; > > - JP > Octal word 042130 decodes as ascii "DX", which is the M9312 boot mnemonic for the RX01 drive/RX11 controller combo. Octal word 042131 decodes as ascii "DY", which is the M9312 boot mnemonic for the RX02 drive/RX211 controller combo. Octal word 043127 decodes as ascii "FW", which is not a standard M9312 boot mnemonic. Probably a third party manufacturer custom boot prom. FYI the above octal words are programmed in the first word of each boot PROM, so they are accessible at locations 773000, You can find program listings and hex PROM images of all the known M9312 devices here: http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/, including the DX and DY PROMs. Don From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Sep 7 01:58:58 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 23:58:58 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROM type identification In-Reply-To: <3e6b6f39-3679-08b9-31d4-d2b423556ce5@alum.mit.edu> References: <3e6b6f39-3679-08b9-31d4-d2b423556ce5@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 9/6/2016 11:55 PM, Don North wrote: > On 9/6/2016 9:23 AM, JP Hindin wrote: >> >> Greetings; >> >> My googlefu is failing me and I was wondering if someone might be able to >> help me identify one of the boot ROMs present in an M9312 bootstrap/term >> board. The board has three ROMs, an RX01 (042130), an RX02 (042131) and then >> a mystery code - 043127. >> >> The M9312 ROM identification table does not list this ROM code - I suspect it >> _might_ be for a DSD combined 8" drive and Winchester disk box, but I'm under >> the impression this would appear as a DU device, and attempting to boot from >> DU gets an ILL CMD, suggesting otherwise. I tried all of the other possible >> mnemonics listed in the M9312 manual, so it doesn't appear to piggy-backing >> on any of those either. >> >> My thanks; >> >> - JP >> > Octal word 042130 decodes as ascii "DX", which is the M9312 boot mnemonic for > the RX01 drive/RX11 controller combo. > > Octal word 042131 decodes as ascii "DY", which is the M9312 boot mnemonic for > the RX02 drive/RX211 controller combo. > > Octal word 043127 decodes as ascii "FW", which is not a standard M9312 boot > mnemonic. Probably a third party manufacturer custom boot prom. > > FYI the above octal words are programmed in the first word of each boot PROM, > so they are accessible at locations 773000, > > You can find program listings and hex PROM images of all the known M9312 > devices here: http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/, including the DX and DY PROMs. > > Don > Whoops I sent before finishing this line: FYI the above octal words are programmed in the first word of each boot PROM, so they are accessible at locations 773000, 773200, 773400, 773600 as 18b UNIBUS address. Don From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Sep 7 01:58:58 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 23:58:58 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROM type identification In-Reply-To: <3e6b6f39-3679-08b9-31d4-d2b423556ce5@alum.mit.edu> References: <3e6b6f39-3679-08b9-31d4-d2b423556ce5@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 9/6/2016 11:55 PM, Don North wrote: > On 9/6/2016 9:23 AM, JP Hindin wrote: >> >> Greetings; >> >> My googlefu is failing me and I was wondering if someone might be able to >> help me identify one of the boot ROMs present in an M9312 bootstrap/term >> board. The board has three ROMs, an RX01 (042130), an RX02 (042131) and then >> a mystery code - 043127. >> >> The M9312 ROM identification table does not list this ROM code - I suspect it >> _might_ be for a DSD combined 8" drive and Winchester disk box, but I'm under >> the impression this would appear as a DU device, and attempting to boot from >> DU gets an ILL CMD, suggesting otherwise. I tried all of the other possible >> mnemonics listed in the M9312 manual, so it doesn't appear to piggy-backing >> on any of those either. >> >> My thanks; >> >> - JP >> > Octal word 042130 decodes as ascii "DX", which is the M9312 boot mnemonic for > the RX01 drive/RX11 controller combo. > > Octal word 042131 decodes as ascii "DY", which is the M9312 boot mnemonic for > the RX02 drive/RX211 controller combo. > > Octal word 043127 decodes as ascii "FW", which is not a standard M9312 boot > mnemonic. Probably a third party manufacturer custom boot prom. > > FYI the above octal words are programmed in the first word of each boot PROM, > so they are accessible at locations 773000, > > You can find program listings and hex PROM images of all the known M9312 > devices here: http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/, including the DX and DY PROMs. > > Don > Whoops I sent before finishing this line: FYI the above octal words are programmed in the first word of each boot PROM, so they are accessible at locations 773000, 773200, 773400, 773600 as 18b UNIBUS address. Don From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Sep 7 02:10:31 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 03:10:31 -0400 Subject: Components available Message-ID: <84f11.5dfb43ba.45011767@aol.com> In a message dated 9/6/2016 11:55:46 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, pontus at Update.UU.SE writes: On Tue, Sep 06, 2016 at 06:16:23PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > I walked out of the donations meeting with the other curators today > who thought it was a piece of s**t and didn't want to take it, calling > it a 'dumpster fire' > Wow, what an attitude.. I don't know much about Unicomps but should lesser know machines but unusual machines be preserved as well? /P Right on... All machines are part of the overall history, true, some more significant than others but... ALL have a place. Good thing about lists like this is someone can be found to adopt some of these systems. Ed# From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Sep 7 02:19:15 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:19:15 +0200 Subject: The huge lot that had the NIB 8" floppies is now on ebay In-Reply-To: <20160906153039.724A518C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160906153039.724A518C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160907071913.GQ3629@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Sep 06, 2016 at 11:30:39AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jason Howe > > when folks just dump an ebay item number rather than a full link, those > > posts should die > > Why? It's a tiny bit more work to use them (prepend the number with the > string "http://www.ebay.com/itm/", and away you go), so one can't just click > and go, but are people really that unwilling to go to the slightest effort? > Also firefox has a nifty feature called "keyword search". If you rightclick the searchfield on ebay you can choose: "Add a Keyword for this search..." That lets you add a bookmark with a keyword field, enter something short like the letter "e". Now you can type "e " in the address field, and it usually gives you a hit (sometimes ebay fails... ebay is a mess). It's really handy, a wikipedia search is no "w " for me. /P From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Sep 7 02:22:30 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 00:22:30 -0700 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: <1878F21B-EAE2-4C6C-847D-F776E5ACE51A@sbcglobal.net> References: <015701d20892$81b33ae0$8519b0a0$@computer.org> <016801d20894$ff3178e0$fd946aa0$@computer.org> <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> <1878F21B-EAE2-4C6C-847D-F776E5ACE51A@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20160907002230.232a7a89@asrock.bcwi.net> On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 22:43:05 -0700 Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > . > > > On Sep 6, 2016, at 6:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > > >> On 9/6/16 4:18 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > >> > >> A friend of mine died recently; he was amongst many things an > >> electronics tinkerer and has a closet full of small parts in bin > >> cabinets (resistors, capacitors, ICs, transistors, hardware, > >> etc.). > > > > > > There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, and > > FFT processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) with full > > documentation. > > > > I walked out of the donations meeting with the other curators today > > who thought it was a piece of s**t and didn't want to take it, > > calling it a 'dumpster fire' > > > > Art was a friend of mine. > > > > Hopefully it can go someplace where it can be appreciated. > > Talk to Tom about it, unfortunately, time is short. > > > > I have room for it. I emailed and called Tom so at least it should > not get scrapped. Wish it had a real front panel though. I called and talked to Tom as well. So have other Bay Area folks. I suspect that very little, if any, will be scrapped. Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 02:27:35 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 00:27:35 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Sep 5, 2016, at 9:30 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > At the LCM, I used an Apple II to test out the Alto's memory -- the Alto II XM uses 4116 RAM chips. I swapped in a row at a time and wrote a little BASIC program to test for obvious errors. This was time-consuming, but eliminated the obviously bad chips, which helped immensely. Oh, that's so simple and clever! Are these 16k chips? I don't have an Apple II, but I wonder if I could use the same trick and plug them in my HP 85 for which I just managed to burn the service ROM, which has a memory test built in. Marc From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Sep 7 03:12:31 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 03:12:31 -0500 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: <20160907065539.GP3629@Update.UU.SE> References: <015701d20892$81b33ae0$8519b0a0$@computer.org> <016801d20894$ff3178e0$fd946aa0$@computer.org> <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> <20160907065539.GP3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20160907081230.GA10383@lonesome.com> On Wed, Sep 07, 2016 at 08:55:40AM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Wow, what an attitude.. I don't know much about Unicomps but should > lesser know machines but unusual machines be preserved as well? Well ... I imagine they already have decades worth of stuff to sort through. (I am intending to send them more soon :-) ) If you browse their online catalog your eyes will glaze over pretty quickly. That said, I do hope this machine is not scrapped. mcl From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 7 03:58:57 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:58:57 +0100 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <57CF7C3B.7040203@gmail.com> References: <20160907015804.03F8418C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57CF7C3B.7040203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3067f70e-ed2a-8adc-9ac6-b9773626dadb@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/09/2016 03:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 09/06/2016 08:58 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> As far as I know, all the M8190's are _basically_ the same: they are the >> KDJ11-B CPU, which support the PMI memory bus, can operate with a >> KTJ11-B to >> provide a UNIBUS, etc. They are the CPU in an 11/83 (with QBUS only >> backplane) and the 11/84 (with QBUS/UNIBUS backplane). > I got the /73 reference from a post of Pete's last year: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2015-February/002612.html > > ... but I' m guessing he just meant that the slower ones work at the > same speed as a true /73? Well, in a sense the slower ones /are/ 11/73s. By that I mean that all the microPDP-11/73s that DEC sold were (AFAIK) running at 15MHz and all the 15MHZ boards were sold as 11/73s - but all microPDP-11/73 machines had an M8190. The M8192 was mostly sold as an OEM board. Don't believe (let alone rely on) the Wikipedia article about the PDP-11/73 - it's just wrong. > Unfortunately there aren't any markings on the crystal on the -AB board > (well, there probably are, but on the underside and it would have to be > desoldered) so I don't know if it's a 15MHz or 18MHz part. Look at the ROMS; if they're really early ones it's probably a 15MHz board. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 06:27:10 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 05:27:10 -0600 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Maybe the HP-41C simulator is next... That will definitely be entertaining. It will need three PDP-8 fields just for the 41C ROMs (12Kx10), and 400 words for the basic 41C RAM (16 "status" registers, 64 data/program registers, all of 56 bits each). I think the 41CX might not fit, because it would need six fields for the 41CX ROMs, and 2320 words for the RAM (total 464x56). The simulator code and OS/8 would have to fit in less than 1.5 fields. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 7 07:02:37 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 08:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex Message-ID: <20160907120237.42D6918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Turnbull > all microPDP-11/73 machines had an M8190. The M8192 was mostly sold as > an OEM board. That's so bizarre (although the "Supermicrosystems Handbook", which covers the 11/73, confirms it used the KDJ11-B). So the KDJ11-A (M8192) was not used in any 'PDP-11/xx'? The other thing that makes no sense is that the KDJ11-B (M8190) has all that extra circuitry on it to support PMI, etc - all of which is unused in the 11/73 application! Why not just plug in a (presumably cheaper) M8192? In the /73 application, the two are basically equivalent. (OK, there are two built in serial lines on the M8190 - big whoop.) Both have 8KB caches (although the one in the M8190 has slightly fancier tagging, IIRC), etc, etc. Maybe it's the ROM (which the M8190 has, but not the M8192)? Noel From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 00:26:54 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 00:26:54 -0500 Subject: 11/04 Message-ID: Hi Ethan, If you are going to VCF and I go, I'll Try to throw a MS11-JP in the van for you. It's yours for bugging the guy with the H960s one more time. That should save you some chip chasing time. Thanks, Paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 06:35:03 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 07:35:03 -0400 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROM type identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2016 1:08 AM, "JP Hindin" wrote: > > > Greetings; > > My googlefu is failing me and I was wondering if someone might be able to help me identify one of the boot ROMs present in an M9312 bootstrap/term board. The board has three ROMs, an RX01 (042130), an RX02 (042131) and then a mystery code - 043127. > > The M9312 ROM identification table does not list this ROM code - I suspect it _might_ be for a DSD combined 8" drive and Winchester disk box, but I'm under the impression this would appear as a DU device, and attempting to boot from DU gets an ILL CMD, suggesting otherwise. I tried all of the other possible mnemonics listed in the M9312 manual, so it doesn't appear to piggy-backing on any of those either. > > My thanks; > > - JP Most ROM part numbers for the 9312 end in A9. I suggest you're looking up the wrong numbers. I have a list on my site, but the following is more comprehensive: http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/ Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 7 07:35:11 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 08:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd memory error in PDP-11/04 Message-ID: <20160907123511.C835918C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > What's happening now . is when I change one location .. it > echoes across multiple locations... > ... > 1) Depositing any value is echoed 000020 later. > ... > Does this sound like a dodgy CPU, dodgy RAM or both? It could be either. One possible cause of the symptoms you're seeing is that address line A04 on the bus is being held to one value (high or low) by something on the bus, so that whether the CPU tries to set it to 0 or 1, it has no effect. Also, of course, there could be some fault in the CPU, so that when it tries to do something with address 0, it gets 020 (or vice versa). And similarly for the memory. I'd try to write a small (two instruction) loop that sets that address line high/low (e.g.: 5037 CLR @#1020 1020 775 BR .-4 and look and see if that address bit is flickering on/off on the UA11 (it will be on, but dully; constant assertion is bright on, constant de-assertion is full off). If so, the problem is almost certainly in the memory; if not, it could be either. > 2) Setting D10 in location 000000 results in D10 set in all the > locations Sorry, didn't follow that? Did you mean that if you store 02000 in location 0, all other locations now report the 02000 bit set? Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 07:48:25 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 08:48:25 -0400 Subject: 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 1:26 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Ethan, > > If you are going to VCF and I go, I'll Try to throw a MS11-JP in the van > for you. Hi, Paul, I am going. > It's yours for bugging the guy with the H960s one more time. I'll give him a shout. I won't be able to fit in a visit before I hop in the car at the end of the week, but I can try to reach him. > That should save you some chip chasing time. It could. I do have multiple MS11-LD boards, but one per PDP-11/34 boardset, so I don't mind testing with them, I really do want a dedicated board to stay with the 11/04. It seems from the behavior that it's not a RAM fault so much as a demux fault or even something wrong in the CPU (bad 74181) or, given the dual symptoms, faults in both. Jason Timmons has promised me a DD11-PK if we can find it at his house, then I could switch to testing with PDP-11/34 boards, and I have multiple sets of those, all untested. My BA11-L has the larger power supply, so it should be no problem to test the FP11-A I found, once I am confident of the rest of the machine. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 7 07:51:08 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 08:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RK05 packs Message-ID: <20160907125108.DE9C918C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > 12-sector packs are abundant compared to 16-sector packs Really? Most of the RK05 packs I've seen for sale on eBay in the last couple of years have been 16-sector - so I naturally assumed they were more common. Well, I guess that explains why my offer to trade drew such a response! :-) Noel From chrise at pobox.com Wed Sep 7 08:13:14 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 08:13:14 -0500 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: <011701d2088a$48601090$d92031b0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> <00f701d20881$c8cdf570$5a69e050$@bettercomputing.net> <011701d2088a$48601090$d92031b0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <04D06730-4F15-4F88-A688-984CF69E0389@pobox.com> Both MIKBUG and SWTBUG need RAM at $a000. Originally this was provided by a 6810, 128-byte SRAM on the MP-A CPU board. To run Flex and other stuff that wanted larger stack and workspace, people modified a 4K MP-M to reside at $a000 (instead of somewhere below $8000) and then removed the 6810 from the CPU board. This results in 4K of RAM at $a000 instead of 128 bytes but you need one or the other-- but not both and not neither ? else the monitor won't run and without 4K, Flex won't run either. Chris On September 6, 2016 5:01:53 PM CDT, Brad H wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >william degnan >Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 2:52 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 weirdness > >> >> >> > >> > >> >Brad, >> >You'll need to make electrical measurements, from the system >checkout in >> >the manual. You very possibly will have marginal components that >need to >> >be replaced, but it's best to try to locate which is bad rather that > >> >to >> replace at random. >> >> >A000 is not the same place as 0100. In the 64K space, they're >quite >> >distant. >> >> >Eliminate all but the one RAM board, setting it to 0000. Test that >> thoroughly, then add the next at the next RAM space beyond the first >card. >> >Continue until you have enough RAM for a minimal Flex boot. It >> >should >> tell you in the version of Flex you're using how much that is (24K?) > >> It's hard to do everything at ?>the same time, break it down into >chunks.. >> >Bill >> >> Thanks Bill. I've tried working with just single RAM boards, but >like >> I said, the only one that will work at all is this modified board. I > >> have pics of it here: >> >> >https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6WVFiZHdyMHBlNW8&us >> p= >> sharing >> >> If I could understand better what it is set up to do, what address >> spaces its occupying, I might be able to understand why my 16K DRC >> boards don't work when I try to put them to $A000. I'd prefer to >work >> with one of those boards first since the chips are socketed, and then > >> I could test the chips individually and be sure one whole board is >good. >> >> I note in one of my pics there, the cap on that modified MP-M looks a > >> little tarnished on the outside... >> >> >> >> >>Getting a memory map of your system is an important step. You need to >know what memory addresses each board is attempting to use, so that >there is no >>overlap. Also remember that the ROM board has RAM on it too. You >would >>not want to map both boards to the same A000 space, but why do you >need this at all? What wants free RAM there? > >>One important rule is that you don't want to overlap RAM. > >>Can you get to a monitor prompt without any RAM installed other than >that which is in the ROM board? > >>b > >Based on what I've read, you *have* to have A000 if your CPU card has >been modified for Flex 2.0, which I've verified mine has. When mods on >the older MP-A cards are done apparently it disables the onboard RAM, >and that's where A000 would be. I could reverse the mod but I'm not >sure if I want to forgo FLEX use. So yeah, according to SWTPC.com >since that mod was done, I have to have a board at $A000. However, >setting either of my configurable ram boards to that space doesn't >work. The system will only boot with that weird MP-M in. So there's >more to it than that.. probably mods above and beyond. > >I suppose it wouldn't be too bad to just reverse the Flex 2.0 mods and >start there. I'm doubtful if I'd ever use it and I could always >reverse again if I do.. -- Chris Elmquist From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 7 08:49:46 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 06:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vt100 terminfo with padding for an actual vt100? In-Reply-To: <201609070021.u870LKXp37357294@floodgap.com> References: <201609070021.u870LKXp37357294@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Sep 2016, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Interesting. I've been trying to get a WiFi device for the Commodore >> 8-bits working consistently in 9600 bps mode, and have just been >> assuming the garbage characters I get when I receive a screenful of text >> all at once were due to buffer overruns. The garbage characters there >> look like actual garbage, not like partial CSIs like [3;1m or whatever. > > Unless you're using an ACIA cartridge, 9600bps on the C128 is problematic, > and impossible on the C64. > FYI, you can do 38.4k on a C-64. The driver for the Comet 64 modem does it on the user port. Here's a link to the driver: https://www.commodoreserver.com/BlogEntryView.asp?BID=FFB55F09EA4348BE921BCC59BAA725C6&EID=9ABF9EE56AF3486AB8B167F2BEC327DF g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 7 09:34:28 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:34:28 +0100 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <20160907120237.42D6918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160907120237.42D6918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 07/09/2016 13:02, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Pete Turnbull > >> all microPDP-11/73 machines had an M8190. The M8192 was mostly sold >> as an OEM board. > > That's so bizarre (although the "Supermicrosystems Handbook", which > covers the 11/73, confirms it used the KDJ11-B). As does the MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Manual, the Micro-PDP-11 Handbook, some Micronotes, the MICRO/PDP-11 Technical Manual, the IPB, ... > So the KDJ11-A > (M8192) was not used in any 'PDP-11/xx'? Unless DEC sold something like a PDP-11/73S in a BA11-S chassis (like a PDP-11/23plus), it was only used for OEM systems and customer-fitted upgrades. > The other thing that makes no sense is that the KDJ11-B (M8190) has > all that extra circuitry on it to support PMI, etc - all of which is > unused in the 11/73 application! Why not just plug in a (presumably > cheaper) M8192? In the /73 application, the two are basically > equivalent. (OK, there are two built in serial lines on the M8190 - > big whoop.) Both have 8KB caches (although the one in the M8190 has > slightly fancier tagging, IIRC), etc, etc. Maybe it's the ROM (which > the M8190 has, but not the M8192)? Don't forget the LTC :-) All in all it saves a decent amount of backplane space, makes field service easier, and follows DEC's attempts to integrate as much as possible. Otherwise, you'd need an additional bootstrap card such as an MRV11-D with -B2 boot ROMs, a DLVE1 (DLV11-JE) for the SLUs, something with an LTC, and termination. That's at least twice as many slots in a Q-Q backplane and four slots in Q-CD. A BDV11 wouldn't work as it doesn't have the ROM capability (well, one of mine does but it's been seriously modified, well beyond the ECO for 22-bit :-)). OK, you could use an MXV11-B with -B2 boot ROMs, but that's an expensive way unless you just want a very small (and slower) system, and you might still need termination. And don't forget that DEC sold the microPDP-11/73 as a lower-cost alternative to the microPDP-11/83 which didn't appear until slightly later, or looking at it another way, as a fancier and faster microPDP-11/23. The very first boards had some ASIC/J-11 problems that meant they wouldn't work with an FPJ11, and the first J-11 CPUs wouldn't run nearly as fast as intended so they were fitted with 15MHz crystals (as-sold-by-DEC 11/83 systems have 18MHz crystals). I couldn't possibly imply they were finding a way to sell the inferior parts. After that it's probably all marketing differentiation. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 09:46:48 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 10:46:48 -0400 Subject: Odd memory error in PDP-11/04 In-Reply-To: <20160907123511.C835918C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160907123511.C835918C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > What's happening now . is when I change one location .. it > > echoes across multiple locations... > > ... > > 1) Depositing any value is echoed 000020 later. > > ... > > Does this sound like a dodgy CPU, dodgy RAM or both? > > It could be either. One possible cause of the symptoms you're seeing is that > address line A04 on the bus is being held to one value (high or low) by > something on the bus, so that whether the CPU tries to set it to 0 or 1, it > has no effect. Also, of course, there could be some fault in the CPU, so that > when it tries to do something with address 0, it gets 020 (or vice versa). > And similarly for the memory. > > I'd try to write a small (two instruction) loop that sets that address line > high/low (e.g.: > > 5037 CLR @#1020 > 1020 > 775 BR .-4 > > and look and see if that address bit is flickering on/off on the UA11 (it will > be on, but dully; constant assertion is bright on, constant de-assertion is > full off). If so, the problem is almost certainly in the memory; if not, it > could be either. Once I get the console ODT to show up again, I will try that. Something appears to have died while I was powered-on and testing last night and now, the run light goes off right away after hitting boot, and I don't see the address lines or the data lines flickering. > > 2) Setting D10 in location 000000 results in D10 set in all the > > locations > > Sorry, didn't follow that? Did you mean that if you store 02000 in location > 0, all other locations now report the 02000 bit set? Only 04000, but, yes. If I set that bit in location 0, or other locations, it gets set in all locations. If I clear that bit, it clears. I won't be able to enter 5037 / 1020 / 775... it will read back as 1037 / 1020 / 775 based on my previous work (depositing 1020 will "turn" 5037 to 1037...) -ethan From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Sep 7 10:04:08 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 08:04:08 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: <04D06730-4F15-4F88-A688-984CF69E0389@pobox.com> References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> <00f701d20881$c8cdf570$5a69e050$@bettercomputing.net> <011701d2088a$48601090$d92031b0$@bettercomputing.net> <04D06730-4F15-4F88-A688-984CF69E0389@pobox.com> Message-ID: <014d01d20919$16cd2060$44676120$@bettercomputing.net> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Elmquist [mailto:chrise at pobox.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 6:13 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; Brad H ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 weirdness Both MIKBUG and SWTBUG need RAM at $a000. Originally this was provided by a 6810, 128-byte SRAM on the MP-A CPU board. To run Flex and other stuff that wanted larger stack and workspace, people modified a 4K MP-M to reside at $a000 (instead of somewhere below $8000) and then removed the 6810 from the CPU board. This results in 4K of RAM at $a000 instead of 128 bytes but you need one or the other-- but not both and not neither ? else the monitor won't run and without 4K, Flex won't run either. Chris On September 6, 2016 5:01:53 PM CDT, Brad H wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >william degnan >Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 2:52 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 weirdness > >> >> >> > >> > >> >Brad, >> >You'll need to make electrical measurements, from the system >checkout in >> >the manual. You very possibly will have marginal components that >need to >> >be replaced, but it's best to try to locate which is bad rather that > >> >to >> replace at random. >> >> >A000 is not the same place as 0100. In the 64K space, they're >quite >> >distant. >> >> >Eliminate all but the one RAM board, setting it to 0000. Test that >> thoroughly, then add the next at the next RAM space beyond the first >card. >> >Continue until you have enough RAM for a minimal Flex boot. It >> >should >> tell you in the version of Flex you're using how much that is (24K?) > >> It's hard to do everything at ?>the same time, break it down into >chunks.. >> >Bill >> >> Thanks Bill. I've tried working with just single RAM boards, but >like >> I said, the only one that will work at all is this modified board. I > >> have pics of it here: >> >> >https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6WVFiZHdyMHBlNW8&us >> p= >> sharing >> >> If I could understand better what it is set up to do, what address >> spaces its occupying, I might be able to understand why my 16K DRC >> boards don't work when I try to put them to $A000. I'd prefer to >work >> with one of those boards first since the chips are socketed, and then > >> I could test the chips individually and be sure one whole board is >good. >> >> I note in one of my pics there, the cap on that modified MP-M looks a > >> little tarnished on the outside... >> >> >> >> >>Getting a memory map of your system is an important step. You need to >know what memory addresses each board is attempting to use, so that >there is no >>overlap. Also remember that the ROM board has RAM on it too. You >would >>not want to map both boards to the same A000 space, but why do you >need this at all? What wants free RAM there? > >>One important rule is that you don't want to overlap RAM. > >>Can you get to a monitor prompt without any RAM installed other than >that which is in the ROM board? > >>b > >Based on what I've read, you *have* to have A000 if your CPU card has >been modified for Flex 2.0, which I've verified mine has. When mods on >the older MP-A cards are done apparently it disables the onboard RAM, >and that's where A000 would be. I could reverse the mod but I'm not >sure if I want to forgo FLEX use. So yeah, according to SWTPC.com >since that mod was done, I have to have a board at $A000. However, >setting either of my configurable ram boards to that space doesn't >work. The system will only boot with that weird MP-M in. So there's >more to it than that.. probably mods above and beyond. > >I suppose it wouldn't be too bad to just reverse the Flex 2.0 mods and >start there. I'm doubtful if I'd ever use it and I could always >reverse again if I do.. Thanks Chris. I figured it was something like that with my first MP-M. I am curious though why simply setting another board to cover 8000-BFFF won't allow the system to operate in that board's absence. It bothers me that I'm reliant on that heavily modded unit to be able to operate. I have another general question for folks out there. I'm trying to understand exactly how memory addressing works in relation to these boards. For example, if I understand correctly, the original MP-M had 16 2102 chips for a total of 4K. The memory address jumper chose which addresses that 4K applied to. So for example, if I set the jumper to 5, the card would occupy $5000 to $5FFF? My question is, if I am correct that my second MP-M, having 32 RAM chips, has 8K, and I've set it the jumper to '4', where does the other 4K of RAM go beyond $4FFF? It doesn't seem to go to $5000. The instructions for upgrading to the MP-MX spec don't say anything about having to modify the card to span a greater address range, in fact, the jumpers for board # are identical to the 4K MP-M. So I'm confused.. what's the benefit of going out to 8K if the board can't address more than 4? I'm sure it's something I'm missing here. From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 10:15:01 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 10:15:01 -0500 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2016 6:27 AM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > Maybe the HP-41C simulator is next... > > That will definitely be entertaining. > > It will need three PDP-8 fields just for the 41C ROMs (12Kx10), and > 400 words for the basic 41C RAM (16 "status" registers, 64 > data/program registers, all of 56 bits each). > > I think the 41CX might not fit, because it would need six fields for > the 41CX ROMs, and 2320 words for the RAM (total 464x56). The > simulator code and OS/8 would have to fit in less than 1.5 fields. I could imagine OS/8 would come in handy here, as we could swap fields out, maybe between several fields of ROM instructions, as kind of a cache approach. There would be a ROM file that's required for use. Hmm...but the biggest issue I see is the complex display, don't you think? Maybe if we use a VC8E option...which would be fun to support for the original simulator, too! Kyle From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Sep 7 10:17:56 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 08:17:56 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: <014d01d20919$16cd2060$44676120$@bettercomputing.net> References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> <00f701d20881$c8cdf570$5a69e050$@bettercomputing.net> <011701d2088a$48601090$d92031b0$@bettercomputing.net> <04D06730-4F15-4F88-A688-984CF69E0389@pobox.com> <014d01d20919$16cd2060$44676120$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <015201d2091b$03e741e0$0bb5c5a0$@bettercomputing.net> Ahhh.. okay, maybe I misunderstood. I was reading '4096 words of 8 bit RAM', I don't know 'words' that well so I put it in a calculator and it was telling me it was 8K. But docs suggested the original MP-M came with 2k. So setting the board # jumper to 4, if it was at 2K, would run $4000 to $47FF, and with 4K runs to 4FFF, which is what that board is doing. Phew. So, it looks like I've got all the RAM working now. The only address space I don't have covered is from $5000-7FFF. Not sure if I'll need that. So my next task is to run ROBIT. However I'm still confused about that. It says in the docs you want to set the highest and lowest significant bits of each of the lowest memory address and highest memory address to be tested. But it doesn't explain at all how to do that. It shows a listing for the program, but it looks like it's in assembly? Does anyone know how I'd get the system to test, say, from $4000 to $4FFF, as an example? Am I altering $A002 through $A005 using the monitor somehow? Or do I need some kind of assembly language? Thanks!!! Brad From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 7 10:31:55 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 08:31:55 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROM type identification In-Reply-To: <3e6b6f39-3679-08b9-31d4-d2b423556ce5@alum.mit.edu> References: <3e6b6f39-3679-08b9-31d4-d2b423556ce5@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 9/6/16 11:55 PM, Don North wrote: > Octal word 043127 decodes as ascii "FW", which is not a standard M9312 boot mnemonic. Probably a third party > manufacturer custom boot prom. > It's probably for an SMS "FW" Floppy/Winchester. That would be a good one to preserve. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sms/qbus/3000632E_FWT0100_FWT1100_Winchester_Floppy_System_OEM_Manual_Jul83.pdf though I see in the manual it also had a Unibus as well as Qbus interface. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 7 10:44:27 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 11:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd memory error in PDP-11/04 Message-ID: <20160907154427.AF59618C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks Let's look at this one first, this is probably the easier to solve. >>> 2) Setting D10 in location 000000 results in D10 set in all the >>> locations >> Sorry, didn't follow that? Did you mean that if you store 02000 in >> location 0, all other locations now report the 02000 bit set? > Only 04000, but, yes. Ah. That's D11. :-) > If I set that bit in location 0, or other locations, it gets set in all > locations. If I clear that bit, it clears. So that's likely in the memory (although I suppose it could be the CPU, _somehow_). It sounds like there's a latch somewhere in the output path (because it affects all locations right away, not just once you've written to them) that's getting set one way or the other, and and then, won't change. I suspect the problem is with the flop for that bit, not in the circuitry that's clearing/clocking that flop, since it only affects that one bit. Looking at the MS11-J prints, there is indeed a '174 latch in the output path; the one for D11 is in E30 (input pin 14, output pin 15). You might want to throw a scope on it, and see if it is indeed acting consistently with the symptoms (to make sure this is actually the cause). Although why it can be either set or reset with a write, but freezes in one state for reads, is puzzling. I'd suspect control circuitry, but it's only that one bit. I don't think it can be something on the input side, because the memory chips have input and output on separate pins, so if something was hanging on the intput side, it shouldn't make it through the chip. > Something appears to have died while I was powered-on and testing last > night and now, the run light goes off right away after hitting boot, > and I don't see the address lines or the data lines flickering. Yeah, sounds like the CPU is halting. It's probably going to take a logic analyzer to figure out what's going wrong. Too bad that machine doesn't have a real front console, that would probably let you figure out what the problem is. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 7 10:54:11 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 11:54:11 -0400 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <20160907065133.GO3629@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20160907065133.GO3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <073AFDC2-1BD2-41F1-8AC6-EAF85F71685C@comcast.net> > On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:51 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 07, 2016 at 01:58:24AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Marc Howard wrote: >>> It seems to me that one possible solution would be to whip up a PLL in a >>> CPLD or FPGA to generate 12 sector timing from a 16 sector pack or vice >>> versa. >> >> This is one of the recurring conversations here - 12-sector packs are >> abundant compared to 16-sector packs, and the only difference is the >> slits in the hub and the consequent formatting on the matching >> controller... >> >> -ethan > > I do recall discussion of manufacturing new hubs but not the outcome. I > imagine that someone with access to a lathe and mill would be able to > make new hubs with good enough tolerances. > > Is there some caveat to doing this (besides finding someone with a lathe > and mill?) As one who has a (quite old) lathe and some limited skills in using it, I'd offer some. You can't make something without having accurate specs -- engineering drawings or equivalent. The sector mark ring isn't too terribly criticall, but the hub mating surfaces for the spindle are. One question would be what the required tolerances are, and what the required surface finish is. Depending on those, the job may be straightforward for a basement machine shop like mine, or they may require more than average skill and/or a high end CNC machine. If the finish or tolerance requirements are sufficiently tight, the job might require grinding, which raises the difficulty to a whole new level. The other question is the disassembly of the pack and the installation of the new hub. How is that done? What are the concentricity requirements for the platter? Is there a mating surface (exterior cylinder surface on the hub) or are platter and hub aligned in some fixture and then clamped to hold the platter in position? Clearly the pack would be reformatted, so a small amount of runout would be ok, but it would have to be small enough that the vibration is controlled. paul From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Sep 7 10:57:03 2016 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 10:57:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: UNIBUS M9312 ROM type identification In-Reply-To: <3e6b6f39-3679-08b9-31d4-d2b423556ce5@alum.mit.edu> References: <3e6b6f39-3679-08b9-31d4-d2b423556ce5@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Sep 2016, Don North wrote: > On 9/6/2016 9:23 AM, JP Hindin wrote: >> >> Greetings; >> >> My googlefu is failing me and I was wondering if someone might be able to >> help me identify one of the boot ROMs present in an M9312 bootstrap/term >> board. The board has three ROMs, an RX01 (042130), an RX02 (042131) and >> then a mystery code - 043127. >> >> The M9312 ROM identification table does not list this ROM code - I suspect >> it _might_ be for a DSD combined 8" drive and Winchester disk box, but I'm >> under the impression this would appear as a DU device, and attempting to >> boot from DU gets an ILL CMD, suggesting otherwise. I tried all of the >> other possible mnemonics listed in the M9312 manual, so it doesn't appear >> to piggy-backing on any of those either. >> >> My thanks; >> >> - JP >> > Octal word 042130 decodes as ascii "DX", which is the M9312 boot mnemonic for > the RX01 drive/RX11 controller combo. > > Octal word 042131 decodes as ascii "DY", which is the M9312 boot mnemonic for > the RX02 drive/RX211 controller combo. > > Octal word 043127 decodes as ascii "FW", which is not a standard M9312 boot > mnemonic. Probably a third party manufacturer custom boot prom. > > FYI the above octal words are programmed in the first word of each boot PROM, > so they are accessible at locations 773000, > > You can find program listings and hex PROM images of all the known M9312 > devices here: http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/, including the DX and DY > PROMs. It didn't even occur to me that this was octal encoded ASCII, this is great, thank you. As Al suggests, it is going to an SMS device, so it looks like we've got a winner. I managed to get an RX01 (although it's an RX02 box, took me a while to figure that one out) hooked up with what are supposed to be bootable disks, but I get a Boot Error each time - so I think I have something probably off in the hardware, but in _theory_ the SMS is supposed to have a bootable OS image on its Winchester from the 1990s, so that might be interesting... Thanks all! - JP From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 10:56:32 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:56:32 +0000 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <073AFDC2-1BD2-41F1-8AC6-EAF85F71685C@comcast.net> References: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20160907065133.GO3629@Update.UU.SE>, <073AFDC2-1BD2-41F1-8AC6-EAF85F71685C@comcast.net> Message-ID: > The other question is the disassembly of the pack and the installation > of the new hub. How is that done? What are the concentricity > requirements for the platter? Is there a mating surface (exterior cylinder > surface on the hub) or are platter and hub aligned in some fixture and > then clamped to hold the platter in position? Clearly the pack would be > reformatted, so a small amount of runout would be ok, but it would have > to be small enough that the vibration is controlled. I looked into this a couple of years ago with the intention of making a 24 sector pack for an HP7900 (actually part of an HP9880). Starting from a 12 sector pack of course. This project got interupted by a house move and I've not gone back to it yet, but I did discover there is no alignment ridge or anything between the hub and platter. The platter fits on the flat top of the hub, there is a clamping ring that is then screwed down to anchor it. My intention was to put the hub on a spare spindle (I happen to have a load of RK05 drive spares), put the platter on, turn it round by hand and use a lever-type dial gauge to get minimum run-out. -tony paul From chrise at pobox.com Wed Sep 7 11:03:31 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 11:03:31 -0500 Subject: SWTPC 6800 weirdness In-Reply-To: <014d01d20919$16cd2060$44676120$@bettercomputing.net> References: <00d501d2086c$1565d0d0$40317270$@bettercomputing.net> <00f701d20881$c8cdf570$5a69e050$@bettercomputing.net> <011701d2088a$48601090$d92031b0$@bettercomputing.net> <04D06730-4F15-4F88-A688-984CF69E0389@pobox.com> <014d01d20919$16cd2060$44676120$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <20160907160331.GO2103@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (09/07/2016 at 08:04AM -0700), Brad H wrote: > > Thanks Chris. I figured it was something like that with my first MP-M. I am curious though why simply setting another board to cover 8000-BFFF won't allow the system to operate in that board's absence. It bothers me that I'm reliant on that heavily modded unit to be able to operate. Unless your MP-B (and MP-A) have been additionally modified to move the I/O region away from $8000, then your problem is that you are addressing RAM on top of the I/O region from $8000 to $8FFF. You need RAM at, $A000 to $A07F (128 bytes) or $A000-$AFFF (4K bytes) $0000 to $7FFF (as much as you have, no more than 32K) You can't have RAM at, $8000 to $8FFF this is the I/O region The monitor ROM occupies, $E000 to $FFFF There might be add-on PROMs on floppy controllers in the range, $C000 to $CFFF There might be floppy or other special I/O in the range, $D000 to $DFFF The $8000 I/O range is decoded on the motherboard and the original systems took the entire 4K block from $8000 to $8FFF. You cannot also put RAM there because it collides with the I/O devices such as the MP-C, MP-S and anything else on the SS-30 bus. There were modifications later that moved the I/O elsewhere but if that is done, then lots of the software (and firmware) needs to change too and most certainly the stock MIKBUG or SWTBUG will not work with I/O somewhere other than $8000. So, I think another problem you are facing is that when you put in some of these other memory boards, they are getting double addressed with other memory boards or with I/O and that will certainly cause bad behavior. > I have another general question for folks out there. I'm trying to understand exactly how memory addressing works in relation to these boards. For example, if I understand correctly, the original MP-M had 16 2102 chips for a total of 4K. The memory address jumper chose which addresses that 4K applied to. So for example, if I set the jumper to 5, the card would occupy $5000 to $5FFF? Yes. Exactly. > My question is, if I am correct that my second MP-M, having 32 RAM chips, has 8K, and I've set it the jumper to '4', where does the other 4K of RAM go beyond $4FFF? It doesn't seem to go to $5000. The instructions for upgrading to the MP-MX spec don't say anything about having to modify the card to span a greater address range, in fact, the jumpers for board # are identical to the 4K MP-M. So I'm confused.. what's the benefit of going out to 8K if the board can't address more than 4? Depends on how the modification was implemented. I'm not familiar with those mods so you will either have to reverse engineer what was done to figure out how they are decoding the second bank on the board or remove the mod and return the board to stock configuration. It's possible that the mod enables the additional RAM at a fixed location (such as $0000) and it is unrelated to where the jumper is set. It's all a matter of how they wired up the chip select(s) to the piggy backed RAMs. > I'm sure it's something I'm missing here. Understood. Without documentation, it's a greater challenge. The upside is that these were very simple machines and pretty easy to understand once you spend some time with them. Lots of the secrets (of the system design anyway) are here, http://swtpc.com/ (with many thanks to Michael Holley for that archive) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 11:04:54 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 11:04:54 -0500 Subject: VC8E Option Message-ID: Charles Dickman's site shows a VC8E screenshot with text: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/spacewar/ However, unless I'm missing something, I don't actually see what would've drawn the characters. A little digging on Bitsavers shows there was a VC8E driver. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/Utils/VC8E/Ascii/havc8e.pa Even in this, I don't see any sign of a character lookup table or the like. Where would all of this have been created? Thanks, Kyle From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 7 11:05:35 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 12:05:35 -0400 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <20160907125108.DE9C918C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160907125108.DE9C918C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Sep 7, 2016, at 8:51 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Ethan Dicks > >> 12-sector packs are abundant compared to 16-sector packs > > Really? Most of the RK05 packs I've seen for sale on eBay in the last couple > of years have been 16-sector - so I naturally assumed they were more common. Interesting. They are best known as PDP-8 packs, but there's another use for them and I wonder if that is relevant. Some IBM systems -- the 360 model 44 for example -- have a "2315" drive which is an RK05. And I vaguely remember seeing 16 sector slots in that pack the one time I pulled it out of our college 360/44. The IBM manual speaks of 8 sectors per track, 366 bytes per sector. Weird. But 200 cylinders plus 3 spare, just as for the RK05s we know. paul From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Sep 7 11:11:46 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 10:11:46 -0600 Subject: DEC professionals Power Supply ... Message-ID: <349f56fd-3b33-6d26-12e9-7da85f60aa44@e-bbes.com> Anybody has a spare one, to sell? With all the discussions about the P350/P380, I went to my storage, and found two p350s without power supplies :( Cheers From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 7 11:12:52 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 12:12:52 -0400 Subject: Odd memory error in PDP-11/04 In-Reply-To: <20160907154427.AF59618C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160907154427.AF59618C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <643DF1C1-4035-4C17-B6AD-2C6C152F7A35@comcast.net> > On Sep 7, 2016, at 11:44 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Ethan Dicks > > Let's look at this one first, this is probably the easier to solve. > >>>> 2) Setting D10 in location 000000 results in D10 set in all the >>>> locations > >>> Sorry, didn't follow that? Did you mean that if you store 02000 in >>> location 0, all other locations now report the 02000 bit set? > >> Only 04000, but, yes. > > Ah. That's D11. :-) > >> If I set that bit in location 0, or other locations, it gets set in all >> locations. If I clear that bit, it clears. > > So that's likely in the memory (although I suppose it could be the CPU, > _somehow_). It sounds like there's a latch somewhere in the output path > (because it affects all locations right away, not just once you've written to > them) that's getting set one way or the other, and and then, won't change. I > suspect the problem is with the flop for that bit, not in the circuitry > that's clearing/clocking that flop, since it only affects that one bit. Semiconductor memory, right? A possible reason would be that the address drivers for that bit, or the address decoders in that chip, are busted. The result would be that reads and writes always touch the same address in the chip. The fact that other bits repeat every 20 also suggests issues with addressing logic. I'd suggest checking the address signals on the memory card. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 7 11:17:09 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 12:17:09 -0400 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: References: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20160907065133.GO3629@Update.UU.SE> <073AFDC2-1BD2-41F1-8AC6-EAF85F71685C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17341707-04FF-4003-B717-9F135062A901@comcast.net> > On Sep 7, 2016, at 11:56 AM, tony duell wrote: > > >> The other question is the disassembly of the pack and the installation >> of the new hub. How is that done? What are the concentricity >> requirements for the platter? Is there a mating surface (exterior cylinder >> surface on the hub) or are platter and hub aligned in some fixture and >> then clamped to hold the platter in position? Clearly the pack would be >> reformatted, so a small amount of runout would be ok, but it would have >> to be small enough that the vibration is controlled. > > I looked into this a couple of years ago with the intention of making > a 24 sector pack for an HP7900 (actually part of an HP9880). Starting > from a 12 sector pack of course. > > This project got interupted by a house move and I've not gone back > to it yet, but I did discover there is no alignment ridge or anything > between the hub and platter. The platter fits on the flat top of the > hub, there is a clamping ring that is then screwed down to anchor > it. Did you construct an engineering drawing of the hub based on your observations? > My intention was to put the hub on a spare spindle (I happen to > have a load of RK05 drive spares), put the platter on, turn it round > by hand and use a lever-type dial gauge to get minimum run-out. That's like the procedure for centering a work piece in a 4-jaw chuck. With care and patience you can get it centered to .001 inches (25 um), give or take. Another option would be to make a centering jig, one that holds the hub and platter. If the outer diameter of the platter is held to tight tolerances that would work well; if that dimension is not tightly controlled then centering with an indicator gauge will work better. With a spare spindle like that, you'd also be able to verify the balance afterwards, by spinning up the finished platter and checking the vibration level. paul From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Sep 7 11:21:24 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:21:24 -0700 Subject: Odd memory error in PDP-11/04 In-Reply-To: <20160907154427.AF59618C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160907154427.AF59618C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <477e2c34-88ad-fcb1-6451-7b3da511d71c@jwsss.com> Is there a hint as far as the affected hardware in that the ODT is working, but the ram is not? The rom that is running ODT is also being accessed for read correctly. Perhaps the problem is migrating since the system halts however. A wild jump and a fault if the rom path is affected might explain that. I don't know if the rom path to the ODT code is different than the ram, you guys would know better, but it is interesting that the console code is being fetched, along with the data from the serial controller to communicate with the console terminal, but the ram behaves so odd. Insight as to how this is arranged would be good to have both for this system and others. thanks Jim On 9/7/2016 8:44 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Yeah, sounds like the CPU is halting. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 11:56:08 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:56:08 -0700 Subject: VC8E Option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Charles Dickman's site shows a VC8E screenshot with text: > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/spacewar/ > > However, unless I'm missing something, I don't actually see what would've > drawn the characters. A little digging on Bitsavers shows there was a VC8E > driver. > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs. > indiana.edu/Utils/VC8E/Ascii/havc8e.pa > > Even in this, I don't see any sign of a character lookup table or the like. > Where would all of this have been created? > > I have a vague memory of a FOCAL overlay for VC8/E that had a character table in it, but I can't find it on the webs at the moment. -- Charles From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 7 12:18:34 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 13:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RK05 packs Message-ID: <20160907171834.58B6F18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> From: Paul Koning > Some IBM systems ... have a "2315" drive which is an RK05. Yeah, I think that was the original source of these packs. The Diablo 30/31 drives (used on the RK11-C controller before the RK05 was created) were designed to use 2315 packs. > From: Tony Duell > My intention was to put the hub on a spare spindle .. put the platter > on, turn it round by hand and use a lever-type dial gauge to get > minimum run-out. One of the people I buy PDP-11 parts from reports that he actually did this (using the exact procedure you describe) BITD. Apparently there's some multi-platter pack that has the same exact platter as the RK05 (2315) pack, and he had some damaged RK05 packs, and moved platters from the bad multi-platter pack to the RK05's. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 7 12:26:54 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 13:26:54 -0400 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <20160907171834.58B6F18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160907171834.58B6F18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9BCB171D-F252-4075-971F-41816FB397C6@comcast.net> > On Sep 7, 2016, at 1:18 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > ... >> From: Tony Duell > >> My intention was to put the hub on a spare spindle .. put the platter >> on, turn it round by hand and use a lever-type dial gauge to get >> minimum run-out. > > One of the people I buy PDP-11 parts from reports that he actually did this > (using the exact procedure you describe) BITD. Apparently there's some > multi-platter pack that has the same exact platter as the RK05 (2315) pack, > and he had some damaged RK05 packs, and moved platters from the bad > multi-platter pack to the RK05's. At least by visual appearance, the RP03, IBM 1311/2311, and IBM 2314 all seem to have RK05-like platters. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 7 12:46:25 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 13:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd memory error in PDP-11/04 Message-ID: <20160907174625.1B98518C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Semiconductor memory, right? Yup. > A possible reason would be that the address drivers for that bit, or > the address decoders in that chip, are busted. The result would be that > reads and writes always touch the same address in the chip. Oooh, good point. That's a better explanation of the symptoms than mine, since it answers the thing that was confusing me ("why it can be either set or reset with a write, but freezes in one state for reads"). A fully-populated 64KB MS11-J card has 4 rows of 16Kx1 chips, so if the machine ever runs again, the first thing to check is to see if that bit at 040000 (or 0100000, if it's a larger than 32KB card) is tied to that bit at 0; if not, it's the addressing circuitry in the chip. (Looks like E75, but it might be E72). > The fact that other bits repeat every 20 also suggests issues with > addressing logic. That I don't think is a memory chip issue, since it causes the entire word to repeat, and on that card, each bit of the word is in a separate chip. > From: Jim Stephens > Is there a hint as far as the affected hardware in that the ODT is > working, but the ram is not? The rom that is running ODT is also being > accessed for read correctly. Good point. So it's probably not something in the CPU that's repeating every 020 locations. Also, IIRC, that ODT code doesn't use memory, it runs entirely out of the registers. There's some good reason for that (probably to avoid messing with the contents of memory), but maybe also so that it runs without working memory - ISTR that we discussed this at one point here, but I'm too lazy to look for the discussion. So that's why ODT runs even if the RAM isn't working. Anyway, if the 020 problem is in the memory too, it's probably the A04 bus receiver (E55), although it might be the address latch (E88, a 7475) or the RAS/CAS mux (E99, 74S153). Step a would be to put a scope probe on the output of the bus receiver (pin 2) and see if it's hopping up and down - if that, that chip is OK, and the problem is further down the line. > I don't know if the rom path to the ODT code is different than the ram, Yes. The ROM for the ODT is stored in the M9301 card (at least, if it's an 11/04, it's probably an M9301 - could be an M9312, too). The RAM is in another card, an M7847 (MS11-J). > it is interesting that the console code is being fetched, along with > the data from the serial controller to communicate with the console > terminal Which indicates that the UNIBUS is probably OK; the console serial is on yet another card, the M7856 (DL11-W); the CPU, RAM, bootstrap and serial line all talk to one another over the UNIBUS. Noel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 12:40:35 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 17:40:35 +0000 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <17341707-04FF-4003-B717-9F135062A901@comcast.net> References: <20160906154812.9552918C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20160907065133.GO3629@Update.UU.SE> <073AFDC2-1BD2-41F1-8AC6-EAF85F71685C@comcast.net> , <17341707-04FF-4003-B717-9F135062A901@comcast.net> Message-ID: > > I looked into this a couple of years ago with the intention of making > > a 24 sector pack for an HP7900 (actually part of an HP9880). Starting > > from a 12 sector pack of course. > > > > This project got interupted by a house move and I've not gone back > > to it yet, but I did discover there is no alignment ridge or anything > > between the hub and platter. The platter fits on the flat top of the > > hub, there is a clamping ring that is then screwed down to anchor > > it. > > Did you construct an engineering drawing of the hub based on your observations? No. There is no need for what I want to do. I just need to put an extra notch between each of the sectoring notches, I think (I will have to investigate what happens with the index notch, the one at the odd spacing). It was my intention to put the hub on a dividing head, carefully get one of the existing notches over a slitting saw, then rotate and cut the next notch, etc. > > My intention was to put the hub on a spare spindle (I happen to > > have a load of RK05 drive spares), put the platter on, turn it round > > by hand and use a lever-type dial gauge to get minimum run-out. > > That's like the procedure for centering a work piece in a 4-jaw chuck. Sure, done that often enough. > With care and patience you can get it centered to .001 inches (25 um), And as you said the only real requirment is to get it balanced to avoid vibration. I think a 1 thou runout would be good enough for that. Of course the disk would have to be formatted after this modification but that's not a problem. In fact for my application (the HP9880) it may not be necessary. After battling through manuals and microcode, I have realised that the thing actually treats it as a _12_ sector pack, starting a read or write on alternate notches only. That means an electronic modification (easier for me) would let you use normal 12 sector packs that I have over a hundred of.... -tony From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 12:51:23 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 13:51:23 -0400 Subject: RK05 packs References: <20160907171834.58B6F18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Chiappa" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 1:18 PM Subject: Re: RK05 packs > From: Paul Koning > > > Some IBM systems ... have a "2315" drive which is an RK05. > > Yeah, I think that was the original source of these packs. The Diablo 30/31 > drives (used on the RK11-C controller before the RK05 was created) were > designed to use 2315 packs. > > > From: Tony Duell > > > My intention was to put the hub on a spare spindle .. put the platter > > on, turn it round by hand and use a lever-type dial gauge to get > > minimum run-out. > > One of the people I buy PDP-11 parts from reports that he actually did this > (using the exact procedure you describe) BITD. Apparently there's some > multi-platter pack that has the same exact platter as the RK05 (2315) pack, > and he had some damaged RK05 packs, and moved platters from the bad > multi-platter pack to the RK05's. > > Noel ============================ FWIW Burroughs also used drives/platters like this with their small systems (B80 - B1800); ISTR that they were ~ 5MB but 32 SPT instead of 12 or 16; unfortunately I dumped all of mine long ago. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/burroughs-b800 m From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 12:51:24 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 17:51:24 +0000 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: References: <20160907171834.58B6F18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, Message-ID: > FWIW Burroughs also used drives/platters like this with their small systems > (B80 - B1800); ISTR that they were ~ 5MB but 32 SPT instead of 12 or 16; > unfortunately I dumped all of mine long ago. I can remember when the Inmac catalogue (that dates me...) told you to count the number of notches in the hub, subtract 1 (for the index notch) and order the appropriate pack. I can't remember which ones were listed. Didn't the DEC RK01 use 8 sector packs? Something certainly did. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 7 13:21:51 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 14:21:51 -0400 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: References: <20160907171834.58B6F18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Sep 7, 2016, at 1:51 PM, tony duell wrote: > ... > Didn't the DEC RK01 use 8 sector packs? Something certainly did. That would fit the IBM 2315 if indeed it used one sector notch for each sector (it has 8 per track). paul From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 7 13:45:52 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 11:45:52 -0700 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: References: <20160907171834.58B6F18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <791597df-ed16-7a34-5514-20b3f189cd7b@bitsavers.org> On 9/7/16 11:21 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > That would fit the IBM 2315 if indeed it used one sector notch for each sector (it has 8 per track). > and 100 TPI Original Diablo drives were also 100 TPI, and used silver colored heads, moving to 200 TPI and the more common white ceramic heads. Apparently, the 100 TPI Diablo heads are extremely difficult to find today. I remember all the 100 TPI Diablo drives at a friend's company getting converted to 200. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 7 13:46:49 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 14:46:49 -0400 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <791597df-ed16-7a34-5514-20b3f189cd7b@bitsavers.org> References: <20160907171834.58B6F18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <791597df-ed16-7a34-5514-20b3f189cd7b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > On 9/7/16 11:21 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> That would fit the IBM 2315 if indeed it used one sector notch for each sector (it has 8 per track). >> > > and 100 TPI > > Original Diablo drives were also 100 TPI, and used silver colored heads, moving to 200 TPI and the more > common white ceramic heads. > > Apparently, the 100 TPI Diablo heads are extremely difficult to find today. I remember all the 100 TPI > Diablo drives at a friend's company getting converted to 200. TPI, as in "transitions per inch"? I vaguely remember that the 1311 (20 sectors of 200 digits each per track) used silvery colored heads. I wonder if those are the same. They were pretty sturdy; one day when we had a hydraulic leak, the FE just cleaned heads and pack with isopropyl alcohol, fixed the leak, and put the drive and pack back into service. paul From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Sep 7 14:20:37 2016 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 12:20:37 -0700 Subject: MicroPDP-11/73, was Re: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <20160907120237.42D6918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160907120237.42D6918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2ed2abd8-e36d-0587-23d0-a807fd08e51c@crash.com> On 09/07/16 05:02, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > The other thing that makes no sense is that the KDJ11-B (M8190) has all that > extra circuitry on it to support PMI, etc - all of which is unused in the > 11/73 application! Why not just plug in a (presumably cheaper) M8192? In Marketing-land, the VAXstation II RC, with epoxy in the factory-unused slots, makes sense... On 09/07/16 07:34, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Don't forget the LTC :-) All in all it saves a decent amount of > backplane space, makes field service easier, and follows DEC's attempts > to integrate as much as possible. Otherwise, you'd need an additional > bootstrap card such as an MRV11-D with -B2 boot ROMs, a DLVE1 (DLV11-JE) > for the SLUs, something with an LTC, and termination. That's at least > twice as many slots in a Q-Q backplane and four slots in Q-CD. I think this makes sense in Engineering-land, good point. ;) Anybody know what the most common actually-shipped configuration of the MicroPDP-11/73 were? BA23, M8190, 1 RAM board, RQDX_, and DLV11? --S. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 7 14:28:43 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:28:43 -0400 Subject: MicroPDP-11/73, was Re: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <2ed2abd8-e36d-0587-23d0-a807fd08e51c@crash.com> References: <20160907120237.42D6918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2ed2abd8-e36d-0587-23d0-a807fd08e51c@crash.com> Message-ID: <6628474B-7044-46DD-A54D-6DFB06A42FF8@comcast.net> > On Sep 7, 2016, at 3:20 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > > On 09/07/16 05:02, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> The other thing that makes no sense is that the KDJ11-B (M8190) has all that >> extra circuitry on it to support PMI, etc - all of which is unused in the >> 11/73 application! Why not just plug in a (presumably cheaper) M8192? > > In Marketing-land, the VAXstation II RC, with epoxy in the > factory-unused slots, makes sense... Not just marketing. Reusing an existing module that does more than is needed may well be the most economical option. You balance higher per-unit cost against much lower engineering investment. If you build a million widgets, that's probably the wrong way to go; but if it's only a few thousand it may make perfectly good sense. paul From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 7 14:36:11 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 19:36:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ENIAC Simulator References: <213661750.480651.1473276971343.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <213661750.480651.1473276971343@mail.yahoo.com> Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it to VCFMW this year. (Those of you who don't know me are probably thinking "So what?" Those who do are probably split between "Aww, that's too bad" and "Good; he's a pain in the...") In lieu of my "sparkling personality" I'm making available the ENIAC simulator I would have exhibited had I committed to coming early enough to reserve a table. If you attended VCFSE or VCFE this year, you may have seen an early version of the simulator. It's now at a beta testable level of operation. The files you'll want to download and some minimal instructions for use are at: http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/eniac/eniac.html It's written in Go, so you should be able to compile it on a variety of platforms. For those not wanting to compile it themselves, I've included binaries for several options including Linux/amd64, Linux/arm, FreeBSD/amd64, FreeBSD/i386, MacOS/amd64, and Win/amd64. The Windows version has not been tested at all, and only minimal testing has been done on the Mac version. You'll also need TCL/Tk installed to get the wish program available as used by the GUI. Suggestions, comments, criticisms, and questions are welcome, but it will probably be a few weeks before I'll be able to make time to do anything about them. Enjoy. BLS From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Wed Sep 7 10:33:37 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:33:37 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: <33e510cd-f0b2-5e66-3307-730dd60c45f6@abc80.net> References: <33e510cd-f0b2-5e66-3307-730dd60c45f6@abc80.net> Message-ID: The most likely cause of what you are seeing is a broken wire when the plane was originally assembled. The wire was pulled back a few cores and the end stripped. New wire was soldered to old, insulated and then they continued threading in that wire. Over the years the solder joint has degraded or the wire broke at the stress riser found at one end of the solder joint and now you have an open circuit. I've not heard of this kind of problem on the Straight 8 but that may be due to the rarity of the processors. It is apparently a fairly common failure on the 8I core planes. As was stated you have nothing to lose in attempting a repair as the core is useless as is. A steady hand, good desoldering tools, lots of photos and you should be able to take it apart, effect the repair and re-assemble. Keep in mind that the core beads themselves are extremely fragile so take precautions that nothing gets dropped on it. Broken core beads are pretty much a death sentence to the memory. Replacements are unobtanium and if you decided to make the beads you would have trouble matching the originals well enough to tune the core to work with both new and old. You would end up making a whole new core assembly consisting of 49152 beads. You would need to be really determined to attempt that. I did come up with an idea that is simply too dangerous to try. Connect a power supply to the ends of the wire and ramp up the voltage until it just starts to conduct. This could be several hundred to several thousand volts. As soon as it starts to conduct the broken ends of the wire will start to heat and the moment the current starts to shoot up (the resistance drops) you need to cut power. You will have welded the broken ends of the wire together. The problem is that if anything goes wrong you are in worse shape than now and you really only get once shot at it. And the assumption is that the broken ends are in close proximity. Here is wishing you a steady hand and lots of luck! -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 10:53:02 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 08:53:02 -0700 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I'd vote for the HP-1xC line myself. You can get 5 different calculators (financial, 3 x scientific and programmer) for nearly the effort of the first one. The HP-16C (http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp16.htm) would be especially helpful as it can easily be converted to calculate with a 12 bit with carry width and octal operation with just a few keystrokes. Even does 1's complement/18 bits if you happen to have a PDP-1 lying around. On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 11:10 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I updated the project to include optional OS/8 support. I won't say I've > tested it extensively, but it does seem to be working as expected in SimH, > anyways. I updated the README to reflect the additions. The directory > structure was also updated to something more sane. > > The keen observer will note that I also changed up some of the debugging > features which are likely to not be useful to anyone other than the > author...and even then, I only used the features a few times when getting > the thing running initially. But, it's there if you need it, all > configurable through the switch register as detailed in the source. > > Glad some folks got a kick out of it enough to try it out! Feel free to > suggest improvements where you see fit. I was thinking about adding support > to read keystrokes from a file for macro programmability...but that might > be too absurd even for this project. Maybe the HP-41C simulator is next... > :) > > Kyle > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 7 15:11:04 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 21:11:04 +0100 Subject: MicroPDP-11/73, was Re: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <2ed2abd8-e36d-0587-23d0-a807fd08e51c@crash.com> References: <20160907120237.42D6918C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2ed2abd8-e36d-0587-23d0-a807fd08e51c@crash.com> Message-ID: On 07/09/2016 20:20, Steven M Jones wrote: > Anybody know what the most common actually-shipped configuration of the > MicroPDP-11/73 were? BA23, M8190, 1 RAM board, RQDX_, and DLV11? From my experience servicing them in the UK, pretty much that. I saw a few with DEQNAs and some with two memory boards, though. But it would be interesting to see a sales person's perspective. I have a feeling a significant number were bought as one config and later expanded, especially as memory got less expensive. Expansion or addition was certainly true for storage. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 7 16:04:08 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 14:04:08 -0700 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: References: <20160907171834.58B6F18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <791597df-ed16-7a34-5514-20b3f189cd7b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <58e8b0ec-03b4-e2f6-2d76-6c2cf84888e5@bitsavers.org> On 9/7/16 11:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > TPI, as in "transitions per inch"? > tracks per inch > I vaguely remember that the 1311 (20 sectors of 200 digits each per track) used silvery colored heads. I wonder if those are the same. They were pretty sturdy; one day when we had a hydraulic leak, the FE just cleaned heads and pack with isopropyl alcohol, fixed the leak, and put the drive and pack back into service. > 2311 is 100 tpi, 2314 is 200 http://s3.computerhistory.org/groups/ibm-1311-2311.pdf has a nice picture of the 2311 heads From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Sep 7 16:20:48 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 14:20:48 -0700 Subject: VC8E Option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CC744CD21A94D8683849C7239814345@Vincew7> From: Kyle Owen: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 9:04 AM > However, unless I'm missing something, I don't actually see what would've > drawn the characters. A little digging on Bitsavers shows there was a VC8E > driver. > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/Utils/VC8E/Ascii/havc8e.pa > > Even in this, I don't see any sign of a character lookup table or the like. > Where would all of this have been created? That driver contains the line: JMS I (STRTHL+4 /CALL PROGRAM HELP which calls the code in http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/Utils/VC8E/Ascii/help.pa which is what I think you were looking for. Vince From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 16:34:32 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 16:34:32 -0500 Subject: VC8E Option In-Reply-To: <5CC744CD21A94D8683849C7239814345@Vincew7> References: <5CC744CD21A94D8683849C7239814345@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > That driver contains the line: > JMS I (STRTHL+4 /CALL PROGRAM HELP > > which calls the code in > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeIm > ages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/Utils/VC8E/Ascii/help.pa > > which is what I think you were looking for. > Thanks Vince! Yes, that's definitely it. I've been staring at the somewhat related Tektronix 4013 terminal emulator too, in a couple of parent directories above. I need to do some more investigating to figure out how the driver actually works, but it looks like both programs are very dependent on the store mode of the oscilloscope. Based on what I see, there is no massive buffer that the driver iterates through to keep things refreshed, but I might be missing it. Now I'm working on real VC8E integration into SimH to better tell how these programs work. Anyone want to help? :) Kyle From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 7 16:35:17 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 17:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex Message-ID: <20160907213517.D806418C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Turnbull >> The other thing that makes no sense is that the KDJ11-B (M8190) has >> all that extra circuitry on it to support PMI, etc - all of which is >> unused in the 11/73 application! Why not just plug in a (presumably >> cheaper) M8192? In the /73 application, the two are basically equivalent. > Don't forget the LTC :-) ?? The KDJ11-A has an on-board LTC - see EK-KDJ1A-UG-001, pg. 1-7. > Otherwise, you'd need an additional bootstrap card such as an MRV11-D > with -B2 boot ROMs, a DLVE1 (DLV11-JE) for the SLUs, something with an > LTC, and termination. Err, the KDJ11-A has on-board termination: see MP-01890 pg. 1 of 9, on the LHS. > A BDV11 wouldn't work as it doesn't have the ROM capability ?? The BDV11 is a ROM board? (And it works fine in a Q22 bus; the address recognition circuitry uses BBS7, it doesn't look at BDAL 16 and above.) Noel From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 17:43:30 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:43:30 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <011f01d20954$c1e1cfb0$45a56f10$@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <011f01d20954$c1e1cfb0$45a56f10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012301d20959$4270be30$c7523a90$@gmail.com> > > On Sep 5, 2016, at 9:30 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > At the LCM, I used an Apple II to test out the Alto's memory -- the > > Alto II XM uses 4116 RAM chips. I swapped in a row at a time and wrote a > > little BASIC program to test for obvious errors. This was > > time-consuming, but eliminated the obviously bad chips, which helped immensely. > > Oh, that's so simple and clever! Are these 16k chips? I don't have an Apple II, > but I wonder if I could use the same trick and plug them in my HP 85 > for which I just managed to burn the service ROM, which has a memory > test built in. Josh, I checked, and the mysterious HP 1818-1396 or 1818-0341 RAM chips used in the HP-85 appear to be NEC uPD416-2 or MOSTEK 16k chips. They appear to be pin for pin, voltage and speed compatible with the MOSTEK 4116-3 used in the Alto. So it looks like I could check the Alto Xerox II-XM RAM chips on my HP-85. 8 at a time, that might take a while :-). Thanks for the tip, I'd never have thought about it! Marc From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 7 17:59:29 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 23:59:29 +0100 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <20160907213517.D806418C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160907213517.D806418C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 07/09/2016 22:35, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Pete Turnbull > > Don't forget the LTC :-) > > ?? The KDJ11-A has an on-board LTC - see EK-KDJ1A-UG-001, pg. 1-7. So it does. I'd forgotten that! > > Otherwise, you'd need an additional bootstrap card such as an MRV11-D > > with -B2 boot ROMs, a DLVE1 (DLV11-JE) for the SLUs, something with an > > LTC, and termination. > > Err, the KDJ11-A has on-board termination: see MP-01890 pg. 1 of 9, on the LHS. I meant for the other end of the bus. > > A BDV11 wouldn't work as it doesn't have the ROM capability > > ?? The BDV11 is a ROM board? > > (And it works fine in a Q22 bus; the address recognition circuitry uses BBS7, > it doesn't look at BDAL 16 and above.) Yes, it has a lot of ROM sockets: it's a bootstrap/terminator/LTC card. In fact it's the archetypal bootstrap card, the one that first had the paging mechanisms all the others use. The problem is none of the sockets support large ROMs, so there's a lot of fiddling to do to get a microPDP-11 bootstrap and diagnostics in there. You have to split each ROM into four devices, so eight in total. I'm well aware of how BBS7 works, but that's not the issue. Unless the BDV11 is modified, it doesn't work correctly in a 22-bit system as it has 18-bit termination. Although DEC listed the BDV11 (Rev.F only) as compatible they classed 22-bit 11/73 systems using a BDV11 of any sort as "not field serviceable" and wouldn't supply or support any that way. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 18:18:24 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 16:18:24 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <012301d20959$4270be30$c7523a90$@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <011f01d20954$c1e1cfb0$45a56f10$@gmail.com> <012301d20959$4270be30$c7523a90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:43 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: > > > On Sep 5, 2016, at 9:30 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > > > At the LCM, I used an Apple II to test out the Alto's memory -- the > > > Alto II XM uses 4116 RAM chips. I swapped in a row at a time and wrote > a > > > little BASIC program to test for obvious errors. This was > > > time-consuming, but eliminated the obviously bad chips, which helped > immensely. > > > > Oh, that's so simple and clever! Are these 16k chips? I don't have an > Apple II, > > but I wonder if I could use the same trick and plug them in my HP 85 > > for which I just managed to burn the service ROM, which has a memory > > test built in. > > Josh, > I checked, and the mysterious HP 1818-1396 or 1818-0341 RAM chips used in > the HP-85 appear to be NEC uPD416-2 or MOSTEK 16k chips. They appear to be > pin for pin, voltage and speed compatible with the MOSTEK 4116-3 used in > the > Alto. So it looks like I could check the Alto Xerox II-XM RAM chips on my > HP-85. > 8 at a time, that might take a while :-). Thanks for the tip, I'd never > have > thought about it! > Marc > > Yep, the NEC uPD416D's are what we have in the Alto we recently restored. And yeah, it takes awhile, but it's worth the effort :). Have fun! - Josh From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 18:37:39 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 16:37:39 -0700 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: References: <20160907213517.D806418C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Yes, it has a lot of ROM sockets: it's a bootstrap/terminator/LTC card. In > fact it's the archetypal bootstrap card, the one that first had the paging > mechanisms all the others use. The problem is none of the sockets support > large ROMs, so there's a lot of fiddling to do to get a microPDP-11 > bootstrap and diagnostics in there. You have to split each ROM into four > devices, so eight in total. I'm well aware of how BBS7 works, but that's > not the issue. Unless the BDV11 is modified, it doesn't work correctly in a > 22-bit system as it has 18-bit termination. Although DEC listed the BDV11 > (Rev.F only) as compatible they classed 22-bit 11/73 systems using a BDV11 > of any sort as "not field serviceable" and wouldn't supply or support any > that way. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/oemMicronotes.pdf uNOTE #004 LSI-11/73 Upgrade Paths "NOTE 1. In the following upgrade scenarios, the systems have been labeled as being Field Serviceable or not. A system which is Field Serviceable has a bootstrap which meets Field Service requirements. The requirement is that the bootstrap must execute an 11/73 cache memory diagnostic on power-up. There is not guarantee that the overall system will be Field Serviceable or that it will be FCC compliant." Basically this boils down to having the MXV11-B2 Boot ROMs installed on either an MXV11-B or MRV11-D. The MXV11-B2 Boot ROMs are apparently not compatible with the BDV11, for reasons I don't remember 100% off the top of my head. Why are MRV11-D boards so expensive, at least on eBay? Were they sold in relatively low volume compared to CPU boards? From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 19:18:08 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 18:18:08 -0600 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I could imagine OS/8 would come in handy here, as we could swap fields out, > maybe between several fields of ROM instructions, as kind of a cache > approach. There would be a ROM file that's required for use. I thought about swapping, but the microcode jumps around so much that it would be insanely slow. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 19:35:08 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 18:35:08 -0600 Subject: National MM57409 "Super Number Cruncher", MM57109 "Number Oriented Processor" Message-ID: I finally got my hands on a couple of MM57409 "Super Number Cruncher" chips with 1985 date codes. I think it was probably introduced around 1982. It's a NMOS part with the same concept (though not compatible with) the earlier PMOS MM57109 "Number Oriented Processor", which was introduced in 1977. In both cases, National took their existing 4-bit masked-ROM microcontroller designs (MM5799 PMOS, COP440 NMOS), and the floating point code they'd already written for calculator chips, and turned them into math coprocessors. The MM57109 also had some support for acting as a floating point general purpose processor. The COP4xx has a test mode, so I should be able to dump the ROM of the MM57409. The MM5799 almost certainly had a test mode as well, but I haven't uncovered any documentation for it, so the ROM might have to be dumped optically. The MM57109 uses an 8-digit mantissa, and a divide takes an average of 78ms, and worst-case 223ms. The MM57409 has a 12-digit mantissa, and worst-case dvidie time is 66ms, with no average stated. Both also have a reasonably full complement of functions that would be found on a typical scientific calculator, including transcendentals. Both are quite slow compared to contemporary math coprocessors such as the AMD Am9511A (second-source by Intel as the 8231A), and insanely slow compared to the 8087. I'm tempted to wire up one of these (either kind) to an Apple II, and hack Applesoft to use it as a floating point decelerator. Back in the day, a few companies sold Am9511A cards for the Apple II. Of course, since Applesoft uses binary floating point but these National Semiconductor chips use BCD, the necessary conversion code running on the 6502 would make it even slower. Perhaps Atari BASIC would be a better choice as it used BCD. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 7 19:31:16 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 01:31:16 +0100 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: References: <20160907213517.D806418C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20655d5e-6c9b-9773-e624-2836002b8649@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/09/2016 00:37, Glen Slick wrote: > Basically this boils down to having the MXV11-B2 Boot ROMs installed > on either an MXV11-B or MRV11-D. The MXV11-B2 Boot ROMs are apparently > not compatible with the BDV11, for reasons I don't remember 100% off > the top of my head. Too big. They're a pair of 8K ROMs, but the BDV11 only supports 2K and 1K devices. > Why are MRV11-D boards so expensive, at least on eBay? Were they sold > in relatively low volume compared to CPU boards? I guess that's the reason. I've only ever seen two, but I've seen (in fact I have) lots more earlier ROM boards and several MXV11-Bs. I suppose by the time the MRV11-D came out, people who needed a bootstrap paging capability either had 11/03 or 11/23 systems with BDV11s or, if they needed an 8K bootstrap, had microPDP-11s, in which the bootstrap is always on the CPU card. Almost anything else could use the cheaper MRV11-C (though it only supports up to 4K chips) and even that supports the conventional bootstrap mechanism, albeit only 16- or 18-bit, not using BBS7. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jsw at ieee.org Wed Sep 7 20:10:33 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 20:10:33 -0500 Subject: Q-Bus Memory Diagnostics and Repair In-Reply-To: References: <20160907213517.D806418C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <118034F1-815B-43E2-AFC7-6F5B20891415@ieee.org> I have two bad memory boards and could use some advise on how to repair them. The first is an MSV11-PL 512KB-Q-Bus 22bit. Dead to both CSR and Memory address access in ODT. Was working until a short time ago. Checked all the jumpers and no evidence any magic smoke has been released. I have a copy of MP01239_MSV11-P Field Maintenance Print, but before start poking around with my scope I wonder if someone has seen this before and/or can recommend a particular methodology to finding the fault. The second board is a CMV1000 that probably has a bad Memory Chip. The results of CVMJAB0 point to ?Bank 35?. I don?t have either prints or a manual for this board. Partial report follows: 512K OF Q-BUS PARITY MEMORY 512K WORDS OF MEMORY TOTAL MEMORY CONFIGURATION MAP 16K WORD BANKS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 012345670123456701234567012345670123456701234567012345670123 ERRORS X MEMTYPE PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP CSR 00000000000000000000000000000000 PC BANK VADD PADD GOOD BAD XOR CSR MTYP INT PAT 025770 35 157752 03577752 000377 03577752 03577752 0 P 17 025770 35 157712 03577712 000377 03577712 03577712 0 P 17 025770 35 157652 03577652 000377 03577652 03577652 0 P 17 025770 35 157612 03577612 000377 03577612 03577612 0 P 17 025770 35 157552 03577552 000377 03577552 03577552 0 P 17 024564 35 141612 03561612 061612 03561612 03561612 0 P 01 024564 35 141652 03561652 061652 03561652 03561652 0 P 01 024564 35 142712 03562712 062712 03562712 03562712 0 P 01 024564 35 143712 03563712 063712 03563712 03563712 0 P 01 024564 35 143752 03563752 063752 063752 000000 0 P 01 024564 35 145552 03565552 065552 03565552 03565552 0 P 01 024564 35 145652 03565652 065652 065652 000000 0 P 01 024622 35 141412 03561412 116365 03561412 03561412 0 P 02 024622 35 141452 03561452 116325 03561452 03561452 0 P 02 024622 35 141512 03561512 116265 03561512 03561512 0 P 02 024622 35 141552 03561552 116225 03561552 03561552 0 P 02 I was expecting bad and xor to be 16bit values, but they appear to be mostly 22bit addresses. But then again this isn?t a DEC board. The board itself is labeled with bits 0-7 P0 P1 8-15 across the top and 8 rows of chips (MT4264-15). Any suggestions as to which chip might be suspect? Jerry From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 20:23:04 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 18:23:04 -0700 Subject: More mystery recycler boards - DEC, Fujitsu(??), Cipher, Emulex In-Reply-To: <20655d5e-6c9b-9773-e624-2836002b8649@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20160907213517.D806418C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20655d5e-6c9b-9773-e624-2836002b8649@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 5:31 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 08/09/2016 00:37, Glen Slick wrote: > >> Basically this boils down to having the MXV11-B2 Boot ROMs installed >> on either an MXV11-B or MRV11-D. The MXV11-B2 Boot ROMs are apparently >> not compatible with the BDV11, for reasons I don't remember 100% off >> the top of my head. > > Too big. They're a pair of 8K ROMs, but the BDV11 only supports 2K and 1K > devices. > I thought there was something else beyond that, maybe the ROM windowing scheme was different or something like that. If it is really nothing more than the size of the MXV11-B2 ROMs of 8Kx8 being too big, then maybe it would work by splitting the ROM images across 2Kx8 EPROMs. People have been successful putting the KDF11-BG ROM images on a BDV11 for use with an M8186 KDF11-A by splitting the two 8Kx8 images across eight 2Kx8 2716 EPROMs. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?24754-Qbus-Memory-cards/page2 I have been meaning to try that myself sometime. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 20:25:50 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 21:25:50 -0400 Subject: Odd memory error in PDP-11/04 In-Reply-To: <20160907174625.1B98518C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160907174625.1B98518C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > A possible reason would be that the address drivers for that bit, or > > the address decoders in that chip, are busted. The result would be that > > reads and writes always touch the same address in the chip. > > Oooh, good point. That's a better explanation of the symptoms than mine, > since it answers the thing that was confusing me ("why it can be either set > or reset with a write, but freezes in one state for reads"). Hmm... I see how that would "work"... interesting. > A fully-populated 64KB MS11-J card has 4 rows of 16Kx1 chips... This is a 64KB M7847 DJ with 72 (4 rows of 18) Mostek MK4027 chips... We did lose at least one of these back in the 80s. I have 1-2 ones needing inspection and repair. Those are far, far down the pile to investigate. This particular board was working through the early 90s before I stopped using it for testing COMBOARDs. I also do have some 256KB boards, > so if the > machine ever runs again, the first thing to check is to see if that bit at > 040000 (or 0100000, if it's a larger than 32KB card) is tied to that bit at > 0; if not, it's the addressing circuitry in the chip. (Looks like E75, but it > might be E72). Right. I did some tests like that but I didn't capture the results and I can't reproduce them yet. > > From: Jim Stephens > > > Is there a hint as far as the affected hardware in that the ODT is > > working, but the ram is not? The rom that is running ODT is also being > > accessed for read correctly. > > Good point. So it's probably not something in the CPU that's repeating every > 020 locations. Good point. > Also, IIRC, that ODT code doesn't use memory, it runs entirely out of the > registers. I think that's correct. > Anyway, if the 020 problem is in the memory too, it's probably the A04 bus > receiver (E55), although it might be the address latch (E88, a 7475) or the > RAS/CAS mux (E99, 74S153). Step a would be to put a scope probe on the output > of the bus receiver (pin 2) and see if it's hopping up and down - if that, > that chip is OK, and the problem is further down the line. Sure. Makes sense. > > I don't know if the rom path to the ODT code is different than the ram, > > Yes. The ROM for the ODT is stored in the M9301 card (at least, if it's an > 11/04, it's probably an M9301 - could be an M9312, too). M9312, as mentioned. I have many of those. So far, I'm still using the one that was in this machine for 35 years, but I have many others, and several common boot ROMs (DD, RX, RL...) > The RAM is in another card, an M7847 (MS11-J). Precisely. > > it is interesting that the console code is being fetched, along with > > the data from the serial controller to communicate with the console > > terminal > > Which indicates that the UNIBUS is probably OK; the console serial is on yet > another card, the M7856 (DL11-W); the CPU, RAM, bootstrap and serial line all > talk to one another over the UNIBUS. Yes. That is "obvious" and I should have immediately realized that the CPU and bus must be happy or I would have no ODT. Must be the RAM, or at least it was before the whole thing stopped responding. Now, it's probably the RAM and the CPU. I did swap back in my first DL11-W and that does (still) stuff up SACK, so it has its own problems. I have one recently working and one recently non-working DL11-W and one that came to me with some obvious mouse damage that might be recoverable - it's in the corner by the 40-pin connector and I think to really clean it, I'll have to remove that connector and clean that entire quadrant, but, again, another problem for another time. Just getting ODT back will be a small win, then debugging the RAM card will be another. So far, the repair has been one 7474 on the console board. Looks like 1-2 more chips will need to be replaced, at least. I do have a few parts of the era. Thanks, all, who chimed in. So far, the observations and advice have been great! -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 20:34:03 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 21:34:03 -0400 Subject: RK05 packs In-Reply-To: <20160907171834.58B6F18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160907171834.58B6F18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Yeah, I think that was the original source of these packs. The Diablo 30/31 > drives (used on the RK11-C controller before the RK05 was created) were > designed to use 2315 packs. I have one RK11-C (as well as RK11-D, RKV11-D and RK8E) and I used to have a Diablo 30, but it was badly damaged in a (backed-up sewer) flood 25 years ago and discarded. It's on the restoration list with the other Unibus gear... -ethan From kevenm at 3kranger.com Wed Sep 7 15:29:03 2016 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 14:29:03 -0600 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <71EC830C9A2D486FA8B9B7974B4FA450@ranger1> There is a nice HP-16C emulator for Windows - and Android. http://www.wrpn.emmet-gray.com/ Also has Java version (and sources) Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Howard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wed 07 Sep 2016 09:53 AM Subject: Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 > I'd vote for the HP-1xC line myself. You can get 5 different calculators > (financial, 3 x scientific and programmer) for nearly the effort of the > first one. > > The HP-16C (http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp16.htm) would be especially helpful > as it can easily be converted to calculate with a 12 bit with carry width > and octal operation with just a few keystrokes. Even does 1's > complement/18 bits if you happen to have a PDP-1 lying around. From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Wed Sep 7 16:46:06 2016 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:46:06 -0600 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 Message-ID: <83B2B3C8A19B49C586F72CD97E6C9673@ranger1> There is a nice HP-16C emulator for Windows - and Android. http://www.wrpn.emmet-gray.com/ Also has Java version (and sources) Keven Miller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marc Howard" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wed 07 Sep 2016 09:53 AM > Subject: Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 > > >> I'd vote for the HP-1xC line myself. You can get 5 different calculators >> (financial, 3 x scientific and programmer) for nearly the effort of the >> first one. >> >> The HP-16C (http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp16.htm) would be especially helpful >> as it can easily be converted to calculate with a 12 bit with carry width >> and octal operation with just a few keystrokes. Even does 1's >> complement/18 bits if you happen to have a PDP-1 lying around. > From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Sep 8 08:30:45 2016 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 15:30:45 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Sep 2016, Kyle Owen wrote: > I updated the project to include optional OS/8 support. I won't say I've > tested it extensively, but it does seem to be working as expected in SimH, > anyways. I updated the README to reflect the additions. ... I tried it out: I dowloaded the hp35only.pal-source, because it needs only 4K of memory, kermited it to my PDP8/E and succeeded assembling with PAL8 without modifying the PALBERT-code. After starting it worked well. :-) As I'm always looking for 4K-applications for our older machines, I downloaded the .BN to our classic-8 and started it. It gave "strange" output. :-( A look in the source showd some BSWs, an operation that doesn't exist on pre PDP8/E machines. I replaced the BSWs with "JMS BSWEMU", a short subroutine to perform the byte-swap and now the hp35 runs on the classic-8 with 4K of memory too. I also had to replace the MQLs with CLAs. Next step is to modify the output, to run it with a teletype... Klemens -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 12:03:36 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:03:36 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! Message-ID: What role did Star Trek play in the rise of small computers that are so ubiquitous today? This science fiction series prognosticated many things but how many actually happened or am I expecting too much from a television show of 50 years ago? Happy computing! Murray From t.gardner at computer.org Thu Sep 8 12:08:34 2016 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 10:08:34 -0700 Subject: Components available - the rest of the story Message-ID: <016101d209f3$a2594cf0$e70be6d0$@computer.org> The rest of the story. As Al pointed out, much to our surprise, the museum has rejected an offer from Art's estate for the donation of a Fast Fourier Transform computing system which included both the Unicomp Computer and a hardware FFT accelerator. This is a very strange decision since the system is one of the earliest if not the first implementation of a FFT in anti-submarine and anti-aircraft warfare. FFT mathematics dates to 1965 but processor until much later had the power to do it real time in software at the resolution necessary, so Art invented the hardware accelerator and multiple units were sold to the Navy. The estate is appealing the museum's decision. The estate would like to keep the FFT system together and so if the museum continues with a cranial rectal inversion it will look to other alternatives including those of u who have already I will respond by email not later than tomorrow to the several list members who expressed interest in the components and/or the computer. I'm busy today helping set up the Atari retrospective for the IEEE Silicon Valley History Committee. Regards, Tom Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:16:23 -0700 From: Al Kossow To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Components available On 9/6/16 4:18 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > A friend of mine died recently; he was amongst many things an > electronics tinkerer and has a closet full of small parts in bin > cabinets (resistors, capacitors, ICs, transistors, hardware, etc.). There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, and FFT processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) with full documentation. I walked out of the donations meeting with the other curators today who thought it was a piece of s**t and didn't want to take it, calling it a 'dumpster fire' Art was a friend of mine. Hopefully it can go someplace where it can be appreciated. Talk to Tom about it, unfortunately, time is short. -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 12:21:20 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 11:21:20 -0600 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Murray McCullough wrote: > What role did Star Trek play in the rise of small computers that are > so ubiquitous today? This science fiction series prognosticated many > things but how many actually happened or am I expecting too much from > a television show of 50 years ago? When we get to the point where the computer tells you, "this unit must survive", be afraid. Be very afraid. From pete at pski.net Thu Sep 8 12:25:13 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:25:13 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9306C470-B2B7-4691-BDB5-4CD5186F6862@pski.net> > On Sep 8, 2016, at 1:03 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > > What role did Star Trek play in the rise of small computers that are > so ubiquitous today? This science fiction series prognosticated many > things but how many actually happened or am I expecting too much from > a television show of 50 years ago? > > A few examples are the PADD (iPad and other tablets) and the Communicator (Mobile Phones). From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Sep 8 12:26:55 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Q-Bus Memory Diagnostics and Repair Message-ID: <20160908172655.EACEB18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jerry Weiss > The first is an MSV11-PL 512KB-Q-Bus 22bit. > Dead to both CSR and Memory address access in ODT. > ... before start poking around with my scope ... can recommend a > particular methodology to finding the fault. Well, the CSR and RAM address detection circuits are separate (page 5 of 11 in the drawings), so since both are not responding, it has to be something in common: perhaps something on the input side like a bus receiver (e.g. BSYNC, pg 8), perhaps something on the output side like a control line driver (e.g. BRPLY, same page), or some of the common circuitry that drives it (e.g. TRPLY generation on pg. 5). The way to tackle this is to write a two instruction loop that reads the CSR (that will be easier to grok than RAM access); it will need a NXM trap catcher which just does an RTI, too; and don't forget to set up the SP. Then, pick some likely point half way along the signal path (e.g. MSEL, on the right hand edge of pg. 5), and see if that's doing what it should. If no, start moving back upstream; if it is OK, start going downstream from there. > The second board is a CMV1000 that probably has a bad Memory Chip. > I don't have either prints or a manual for this board. Yes, either/both for this, and the sister CMV4000 (same board with 256K chips) would be really fantastic to locate. I'm in the process of working out what all the jumpers/mean do, and will work out which chips correspond to which bits, and document them, like this page: http://gunkies.org/wiki/CMV-504 However, we're not there yet for this card, so... > I was expecting bad and xor to be 16bit values, but they appear to be > mostly 22bit addresses. But then again this isn't a DEC board. That shouldn't make a difference. I can't make head or tail of the output either; can anyone else help? (I don't use DEC diagnostics, I have rolled my own PDP-11 memory diagnostic.) > The board itself is labeled with bits 0-7 P0 P1 8-15 across the top Well, that is a good hint... :-) > Any suggestions as to which chip might be suspect? Step A is to find out what the failing location(s) are, and what the bad data is. So either figure out the DEC memory diagnostic output, or roll your own (you can have mine if you like, I have Unix assembler source, or I can give it to you in .LDA binary). Noel From cliendo at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 12:31:52 2016 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:31:52 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The only "computer" related thing I can think of is the scene from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, where Scotty works on the Macintosh trying to show transparent aluminum. In my own humble opinion it is one of the best scenes ever from a Star Trek movie or show. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 8 12:34:26 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 10:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Sep 2016, Murray McCullough wrote: > What role did Star Trek play in the rise of small computers that are > so ubiquitous today? This science fiction series prognosticated many > things but how many actually happened or am I expecting too much from > a television show of 50 years ago? ALL of our computer science, science in general, medicine, transportation is BASED on Star Trek. That's why we speak into the mouse. And use so much transparent aluminum. We would certainly never have bothered to develop mobile phones without copying them from Star Trek. It's a good thing that Star Trek kept us from following the dead-end of "clamshell" portable computers! Half a century ago, the National Safety Council was actually quite pissed off at Star Trek for refusing to have seatbelts on the bridge command chairs. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 8 12:41:28 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 10:41:28 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9a12da6a-29e8-b64a-4464-42f47d4188cb@bitsavers.org> On 9/8/16 10:03 AM, Murray McCullough wrote: > What role did Star Trek play in the rise of small computers that are > so ubiquitous today? The main thing that comes to mind is how often images or references to TOS appear in mid-70's computing magazines. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 8 12:38:25 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 10:38:25 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <9306C470-B2B7-4691-BDB5-4CD5186F6862@pski.net> References: <9306C470-B2B7-4691-BDB5-4CD5186F6862@pski.net> Message-ID: On 09/08/2016 10:25 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > A few examples are the PADD (iPad and other tablets) and the > Communicator (Mobile Phones). Maybe, but the computer "brain" IIRC was always shipboard. Dick Tracy had the 2-way wrist radio decades before. Perhaps in years to come, the tricorder may become a reality. --Chuck From pete at pski.net Thu Sep 8 12:46:28 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:46:28 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Sep 8, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > > The only "computer" related thing I can think of is the scene from > Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, where Scotty works on the Macintosh > trying to show transparent aluminum. > > In my own humble opinion it is one of the best scenes ever from a Star > Trek movie or show. ?Hello, computer!? From pete at pski.net Thu Sep 8 12:49:18 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:49:18 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: <9306C470-B2B7-4691-BDB5-4CD5186F6862@pski.net> Message-ID: <643750A0-E99B-4F69-B027-621869B0E9EC@pski.net> > On Sep 8, 2016, at 1:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 09/08/2016 10:25 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > >> A few examples are the PADD (iPad and other tablets) and the >> Communicator (Mobile Phones). > > Maybe, but the computer "brain" IIRC was always shipboard. Dick Tracy > had the 2-way wrist radio decades before. > That reminds me of another one. Amazon's Alexa and Apple?s Siri are not quite there yet but are very similar to the voice-interactive main computer from the Enterprise. From kula at tproa.net Thu Sep 8 13:01:56 2016 From: kula at tproa.net (Thomas Kula) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 14:01:56 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160908180156.GN5043@keymaster.tproa.net> On Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 01:03:36PM -0400, Murray McCullough wrote: > What role did Star Trek play in the rise of small computers that are > so ubiquitous today? This science fiction series prognosticated many > things but how many actually happened or am I expecting too much from > a television show of 50 years ago? I remember reading, ages ago, that the ubiquitous 'memory tapes' they were always shoving into techno things on TOS were about the size of a 3.5" disk. And, after they started to become common, I remember thinking that USB 'thumb drives' were about the form-factor of the chips used in TNG. -- Thomas L. Kula | kula at tproa.net | http://kula.tproa.net/ From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 13:20:02 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:20:02 -0500 Subject: Powering up a 3741 Message-ID: Hello gents, seeking some advice. I recently brought home my IBM 3741 Data Station that has been in controlled storage since the late 90?s and was working at that time. Given almost 20 years has passed, what would be the best way to power it back up? I believe I have a variac of sufficient size around and I'm assuming it's a linear power supply but any advice would be appreciated on the matter. Thanks, Cory From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 8 13:32:54 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 11:32:54 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <20160908180156.GN5043@keymaster.tproa.net> References: <20160908180156.GN5043@keymaster.tproa.net> Message-ID: <975a098d-62d5-f46d-c05f-bb8af0e54ecb@sydex.com> On 09/08/2016 11:01 AM, Thomas Kula wrote: > I remember reading, ages ago, that the ubiquitous 'memory tapes' > they were always shoving into techno things on TOS were about the > size of a 3.5" disk. And, after they started to become common, I > remember thinking that USB 'thumb drives' were about the form-factor > of the chips used in TNG. ...and now we have the form factor memory device that's about at the limit for ergonomics--the micro SD. I worry that I'll lose one in my pocket lint or the potato chip crumbs on my desktop... Ever notice that humans seem to have evolved out of the "snacking" habit aboard the Enterprise? No dougnuts, candy bars, chips/crisps, soda cans, etc... And for heaven's sake, where did they put the head? --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 13:58:23 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 20:58:23 +0200 Subject: DEC 871 / 874 power controller engineering drawings? Message-ID: Is there engineering drawings online for the DEC 871 or 874 power controllers? I have one with a failed solid state relay and I cannot figure out the spec. One is an Opto-Film OFA-2402H and the other is a CLARE 203A05A3A But I cannot find a data sheet for any of those. Does anyone know a compatible replacement device? The pinout is not something I can find amongst the ones at Mouser. /Mattis From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Sep 8 14:00:21 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 12:00:21 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <9a12da6a-29e8-b64a-4464-42f47d4188cb@bitsavers.org> References: <9a12da6a-29e8-b64a-4464-42f47d4188cb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/8/2016 10:41 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 9/8/16 10:03 AM, Murray McCullough wrote: >> What role did Star Trek play in the rise of small computers that are >> so ubiquitous today? > The main thing that comes to mind is how often images or references to TOS > appear in mid-70's computing magazines. I would say that Samuel Harbison's ascii art was impacted. He did a project to produce ascii art very early on (I think there is a tape floating around if you have a spare impact line printer around) which included a Spock picture. The image I think is dated 1973. When I went to track him down to get permission to share his tape of images, I went at it just looking for the Sam Harbison of the header on the tape images. I then realized he is the Harbison of Harbison & Steel which was on the shelf behind me as my main C programming reference manual. Duh. He is a very nice fellow and said he had no objection. I noted Mike Loewen interviewed him about it some time later and did a nice web page about it. http://i.imgur.com/K9EZq.jpg http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~alien/aaa.html https://savedparadigms.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/harbison-s-p-steele-g-l-c-a-reference-manual-5th-ed.pdf http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ASCII/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 8 14:05:53 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 19:05:53 +0000 Subject: DEC 871 / 874 power controller engineering drawings? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Is there engineering drawings online for the DEC 871 or 874 power > controllers? I don't know if it's any use, but the 874 printset seems to be here : http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/dec/manuals/decimages/moremanuals.htm -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Sep 8 15:03:52 2016 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 16:03:52 -0400 Subject: TK50 with DEC All-in-1 Message-ID: <14E17DDD-2301-430B-82ED-987CECD35484@atarimuseum.com> Hi Anyone have a TK50 install of this ? Either for sale, trade or loan? Thanks, Curt From isking at uw.edu Thu Sep 8 15:58:18 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:58:18 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: <9a12da6a-29e8-b64a-4464-42f47d4188cb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: It's interesting to me that the Enterprise computers were effectively command-and-control grammars, albeit somewhat freeform regarding the commands (e.g., "Provide information about such-and-so" with no paramters as to *what* knowledge). There were only a select few episodes about self-aware or self-actualizing computers, and ISTR they were all critical. -- Ian On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 12:00 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 9/8/2016 10:41 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> >> On 9/8/16 10:03 AM, Murray McCullough wrote: >> >>> What role did Star Trek play in the rise of small computers that are >>> so ubiquitous today? >>> >> The main thing that comes to mind is how often images or references to TOS >> appear in mid-70's computing magazines. >> > > I would say that Samuel Harbison's ascii art was impacted. He did a > project to produce ascii > art very early on (I think there is a tape floating around if you have a > spare impact line printer > around) which included a Spock picture. The image I think is dated 1973. > > When I went to track him down to get permission to share his tape of > images, I went at it > just looking for the Sam Harbison of the header on the tape images. I then > realized he is the > Harbison of Harbison & Steel which was on the shelf behind me as my main C > programming > reference manual. Duh. He is a very nice fellow and said he had no > objection. > > I noted Mike Loewen interviewed him about it some time later and did a > nice web page > about it. > > http://i.imgur.com/K9EZq.jpg > > http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~alien/aaa.html > > https://savedparadigms.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/harbison- > s-p-steele-g-l-c-a-reference-manual-5th-ed.pdf > > http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ASCII/ > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Sep 8 16:37:35 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 21:37:35 +0000 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED649F8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Murray McCullough Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 10:04 AM > What role did Star Trek play in the rise of small computers that are > so ubiquitous today? This science fiction series prognosticated many > things but how many actually happened or am I expecting too much from > a television show of 50 years ago? ST:TOS didn't really envision small computers. Systems like the M1 were obviously modeled on the mainframes of the day, taken to a logical extreme in which they were so powerful as to become self-aware. (Compare Mike in RAH's _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_.) The communicators used in the same series actually did influence the Motorola flip phone design--as stated by the designers at the time that this device was introduced. They recognized their early adopter audience. But cell phone technology was in place a decade and a half prior to ST:TOS, so the development of what became the flip phone was simply an instance of Moore's Law in action, not a direct influence from the show. Although a lot of young tech people of the 60s and 70s enjoyed Star Trek, it was more a matter of world view than any direct influence on technological developments. The program was not, in the end, about, nor even particularly friendly towards, technology. Hi tech was simply the milieu within which stories of interpersonal interactions, one on one or civilization to civili- zation, could take place. ("Wagon Train to the Stars", as Roddenberry envisioned it.) My $0.02. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Sep 8 16:50:26 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 14:50:26 -0700 Subject: Components available In-Reply-To: <20160907081230.GA10383@lonesome.com> References: <015701d20892$81b33ae0$8519b0a0$@computer.org> <016801d20894$ff3178e0$fd946aa0$@computer.org> <8429137e-da93-0e38-ce2c-c4c0c6d02bcf@bitsavers.org> <20160907065539.GP3629@Update.UU.SE> <20160907081230.GA10383@lonesome.com> Message-ID: I am not at all familiar with Unicomp minicomputers, and I'd love to see pictures of this one. I'm sorry that I'm not closer to the machine, but it sounds like heroic rescuers are already lined up to keep it from getting scrapped. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From other at oryx.us Thu Sep 8 17:49:30 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2016 17:49:30 -0500 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57D1EAFA.10906@oryx.us> Star Trek:TNG brought us our first view of Apple iPads. Jerry On 09/ 8/16 12:03 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > What role did Star Trek play in the rise of small computers that are > so ubiquitous today? This science fiction series prognosticated many > things but how many actually happened or am I expecting too much from > a television show of 50 years ago? > > Happy computing! > > Murray > From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 17:53:31 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 17:53:31 -0500 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Klemens Krause < krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > > I tried it out: I dowloaded the hp35only.pal-source, because it needs only > 4K of memory, kermited it to my PDP8/E and succeeded assembling with PAL8 > without modifying the PALBERT-code. > After starting it worked well. :-) > Awesome, glad to hear! As I'm always looking for 4K-applications for our older machines, > I downloaded the .BN to our classic-8 and started it. It gave > "strange" output. :-( > A look in the source showd some BSWs, an operation that doesn't exist > on pre PDP8/E machines. I replaced the BSWs with "JMS BSWEMU", a short > subroutine to perform the byte-swap and now the hp35 runs on the > classic-8 with 4K of memory too. I also had to replace the MQLs with CLAs. > > Next step is to modify the output, to run it with a teletype... > You've inspired me to try my hand at converting the current version into a 4K HP-35 only version with a macro switch. Teletype output is already in the works too; I have some ideas there. How does the following compare to your BSWEMU, by the way? This ensures that the link bit remains untouched, which may or may not be important in every case of BSW in my application. BSWSUB, 0 DCA BSWTMP /SAVE VALUE SZL /IS LINK ZERO? TAD (0100) /NO, ADD 100 DCA BSWLNK /SAVE LINK TAD BSWTMP /GET VALUE TO BSW CLL /CLEAR LINK AND (7700) /KEEP TOP HALF RAL /ROTATE IT LEFT TAD BSWLNK /ADD LINK DCA BSWLNK /SAVE IT TAD BSWTMP /GET VALUE AND (0077) /KEEP BOTTOM HALF TAD BSWLNK /GET REST OF IT RTL /ROTATE INTO POSITION RTL RTL JMP I BSWSUB /RETURN WITH ORIGINAL LINK AND BSW BSWTMP, 0 BSWLNK, 0 Essentially, I shift the top six bits once to the left into a now-emptied link bit, add in the bottom six bits and the previous link bit to the left of the bottom six bits, then shift 6 times to the left; the old link is now in the link position, and the two halves of the AC are swapped. I'm sure I've seen some code before that does this, but I can't seem to find any now that I'm looking for it. Maybe there's a shorter way. I think this takes 23 words if you include the (0100), (7700), and (0077), which may or may not also be used elsewhere in the first page where I put this subroutine. Thanks, Kyle From sales at elecplus.com Thu Sep 8 17:54:11 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 17:54:11 -0500 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: <9a12da6a-29e8-b64a-4464-42f47d4188cb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0e7001d20a23$ea3f3630$bebda290$@com> My physician uses a Palm Pilot type device specifically to look up medication doses and drug interactions. He knows the fellow who wrote the program, who had the device that was used in sick bay in mind when he wrote it. The telemetry unit I wore in the hospital last week is another take off on the same idea. Portable insulin pumps that constantly measure your glucose levels and deliver insulin accordingly are another. Walkie-talkies and cell phones, microwave ovens, weighted and magnetic boots, transponders that translate (cell phone apps) and find your companions (GPS), officers of all genders and varying races...this list goes on. I am still waiting for the teleportation; that would be my dream! Then again, it would also be nice to come home at the end of the day and tell the food production unit on the wall exactly what I want for dinner, and a few minutes later it is delivered. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Sep 8 18:07:45 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 16:07:45 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <57D1EAFA.10906@oryx.us> References: <57D1EAFA.10906@oryx.us> Message-ID: <001101d20a25$d0b6bbf0$722433d0$@net> > Star Trek:TNG brought us our first view of Apple iPads. > > Jerry Except of course in the 24th century the concept of storing more than one piece of data on the same pad did not exist. So each report had to be on a separate pad. And of course data could be transferred everywhere except between pads... -Ali From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Sep 8 18:09:22 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 18:09:22 -0500 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED649F8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED649F8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20160908230922.GB15471@lonesome.com> On Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 09:37:35PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: > ("Wagon Train to the Stars", as Roddenberry envisioned it.) Well, specifically, how he sold the concept to the networks. mcl From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 8 18:23:15 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 16:23:15 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <0e7001d20a23$ea3f3630$bebda290$@com> References: <9a12da6a-29e8-b64a-4464-42f47d4188cb@bitsavers.org> <0e7001d20a23$ea3f3630$bebda290$@com> Message-ID: <5de78d51-d698-aaf0-2060-81dd8501b89c@sydex.com> On 09/08/2016 03:54 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > > My physician uses a Palm Pilot type device specifically to look up > medication doses and drug interactions. He knows the fellow who wrote > the program, who had the device that was used in sick bay in mind > when he wrote it. The telemetry unit I wore in the hospital last week > is another take off on the same idea. Portable insulin pumps that > constantly measure your glucose levels and deliver insulin > accordingly are another. Walkie-talkies and cell phones, microwave > ovens, weighted and magnetic boots, transponders that translate (cell > phone apps) and find your companions (GPS), officers of all genders > and varying races...this list goes on. I am still waiting for the > teleportation; that would be my dream! Then again, it would also be > nice to come home at the end of the day and tell the food production > unit on the wall exactly what I want for dinner, and a few minutes > later it is delivered. At my age, I'd be happy with some automation to clean the gutters or wash the windows. I worry that we may be headed more toward the "Outer Limits" "Stream of Consciousness" episode meme. --Chuck From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Sep 8 18:26:26 2016 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 01:26:26 +0200 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <001101d20a25$d0b6bbf0$722433d0$@net> References: <57D1EAFA.10906@oryx.us> <001101d20a25$d0b6bbf0$722433d0$@net> Message-ID: <20160908232626.GA3284@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 04:07:45PM -0700, Ali wrote: > > Star Trek:TNG brought us our first view of Apple iPads. > > > > Jerry > > Except of course in the 24th century the concept of storing more than one > piece of data on the same pad did not exist. So each report had to be on a > separate pad. And of course data could be transferred everywhere except > between pads... > > -Ali Given how things go, this is actually visionary. The guy has to pay for data, then even if he owns more pads, he has to pay for right to display the data on another device. Or even better (and so so much more optimal) he has to buy another copy - after all, if he wants another pad, he has to pay for it in full, right? The ship has an atm unit somewhere on board - most probably vis-a-vis the microgravity john. The unit sends messages back to Earth, and contains a storage of every data they would want to have, thus they can pay for it even if the message travels hundreds years back to the central. The atm unit has data about crew's credits, and anticipation of future incomes, so they can buy what they can anticipate to afford - the info will be synced when they go back home, credit line opened whenever necessary and interest rates added, as if they got it 200 years ago. They will never come back home, however. After crossing certain line, it can be expected they would be never able to repay the credit. It is much better to just run away, so their atm will never sync, or be able to send msg to Earth and receive the answer with updated rates and debts. Another possibility is, they connected a "pad" to the warp drive and blowed everything up. But this happened _after_ the end of the movie. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 8 19:05:37 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 20:05:37 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D8FE04695314F7497373825D3FD01B9@TeoPC> They never really show acceleration and deceleration onboard a spaceship affecting the crew so why bother with seat belts (that would be a pain for the actors to use)? Besides what good would they do if you actually hit something large in space at the speed of light. Handheld phasers would be cool if somebody comes up with a batter that hold crazy amounts of energy and would not short out in your pocket. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 1:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! On Thu, 8 Sep 2016, Murray McCullough wrote: Half a century ago, the National Safety Council was actually quite pissed off at Star Trek for refusing to have seatbelts on the bridge command chairs. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Thu Sep 8 19:07:31 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 17:07:31 -0700 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> From: Kyle Owen: Thursday, September 08, 2016 3:53 PM > How does the following compare to your BSWEMU, by the way? This ensures > that the link bit remains untouched, which may or may not be important in > every case of BSW in my application. > I'm sure I've seen some code before that does this, but I can't seem to > find any now that I'm looking for it. Maybe there's a shorter way. I think > this takes 23 words if you include the (0100), (7700), and (0077), which > may or may not also be used elsewhere in the first page where I put this > subroutine. Here's my slightly optimized version, for what it's worth: 1 *400 2 / 3 / BSW emulation 4 / 5 00400 0000 bsw, .-. 6 00401 3216 dca saveac / Save AC 7 00402 7630 szl cla / Link set? 8 00403 7140 cll cma / Yes, remember it 9 00404 3217 dca savel 10 00405 1216 tad saveac / Get 0 xxx xxx yyy yyy 11 00406 0220 and c7700 12 00407 1216 tad saveac / x xx xxx0 yyy yyy 13 00410 7006 rtl 14 00411 7006 rtl 15 00412 7006 rtl / 0 yyy yyy xxx xxx 16 00413 2217 isz savel / Was link set? 17 00414 7020 cml / Yes, restore it 18 00415 5600 jmp i bsw / return 19 00416 0000 saveac, .-. 20 00417 0000 savel, .-. 21 00420 7700 c7700, 7700 22 $ There is a fair chance that each of saveac, savel, and c7700 can be reused elsewhere. Some assemblers flag the "(" construct when used on page 0, BTW. It's more correct to use "[" there (or to avoid both). I'm a "family of 8" guy, so I avoid using BSW to begin with. Vince From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 8 19:14:21 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 17:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <2D8FE04695314F7497373825D3FD01B9@TeoPC> References: <2D8FE04695314F7497373825D3FD01B9@TeoPC> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Sep 2016, TeoZ wrote: > They never really show acceleration and deceleration onboard a spaceship > affecting the crew so why bother with seat belts (that would be a pain for > the actors to use)? Besides what good would they do if you actually hit > something large in space at the speed of light. If you were going FTL, then you would just pass through it, without noticing. In ST:TOS, they command crew on the bridge were often thrown around in battle scenes, etc. > Handheld phasers would be cool if somebody comes up with a batterY that > hold crazy amounts of energy and would not short out in your pocket. Surely, the Star Trek phasers didn't need anything more than an LR44! From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Thu Sep 8 19:27:27 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 17:27:27 -0700 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> Message-ID: From: "Vincent Slyngstad" Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 5:07 PM > 7 00402 7630 szl cla / Link set? > 8 00403 7140 cll cma / Yes, remember it That should probably be: 7 00402 7620 snl cla / Link set? 8 00403 7140 cll cma / No, remember it Needs more testing :-/. Vince From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 19:38:16 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 19:38:16 -0500 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Sep 8, 2016 8:07 PM, "Vincent Slyngstad" wrote: > > Here's my slightly optimized version, for what it's worth: Nice work. Definitely shorter than mine. I was just working on an optimization that used ISZ, but you beat me to it! > > Some assemblers flag the "(" construct when used on page 0, BTW. It's more correct > to use "[" there (or to avoid both). Yup, I tend to use '(' when I'm writing code that could go anywhere, and '[' for special cases, like when I'm setting up the "JMS I [BSWEMU]" or the like. > > I'm a "family of 8" guy, so I avoid using BSW to begin with. I should probably get in the habit of avoiding it...but it's so darn convenient! And faster. And I'm all about efficiency! Truth be told, if I ever get a pre-8/E computer, I'd likely be changing my programming habits. Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 19:43:58 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 19:43:58 -0500 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Sep 8, 2016 8:28 PM, "Vincent Slyngstad" wrote: > > From: "Vincent Slyngstad" > Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 5:07 PM > >> 7 00402 7630 szl cla / Link set? >> 8 00403 7140 cll cma / Yes, remember it > > > That should probably be: > 7 00402 7620 snl cla / Link set? > 8 00403 7140 cll cma / No, remember it > > Needs more testing :-/. Probably can make it "snl" instead of "snl cla" since you have a "dca" before it, but it doesn't save code space or time. Just an observation. Kyle From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Thu Sep 8 19:57:33 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 17:57:33 -0700 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> Message-ID: <3C7FECD5FF3A4AFCAEC8BE5B03A16018@Vincew7> From: Kyle Owen: Thursday, September 08, 2016 5:43 PM > On Sep 8, 2016 8:28 PM, "Vincent Slyngstad" wrote: >> That should probably be: >> 7 00402 7620 snl cla / Link set? >> 8 00403 7140 cll cma / No, remember it >> >> Needs more testing :-/. > > Probably can make it "snl" instead of "snl cla" since you have a "dca" > before it, but it doesn't save code space or time. Just an observation. Your message crossed my offlist message about the 0 in line 10 needing to be an "L", and the useless cll in "cll cma". I still like the cla in "snl cla", even though it doesn't do anything. But the cll on the next line seems misleading. All of which is probably more on this subject than other folks care about :-). Vince From other at oryx.us Thu Sep 8 21:18:52 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2016 21:18:52 -0500 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <001101d20a25$d0b6bbf0$722433d0$@net> References: <57D1EAFA.10906@oryx.us> <001101d20a25$d0b6bbf0$722433d0$@net> Message-ID: <57D21C0C.201@oryx.us> On 09/ 8/16 06:07 PM, Ali wrote: >> Star Trek:TNG brought us our first view of Apple iPads. >> >> Jerry > > Except of course in the 24th century the concept of storing more than one > piece of data on the same pad did not exist. So each report had to be on a > separate pad. And of course data could be transferred everywhere except > between pads... > > -Ali > So true. Commander Adama never believed in networking From other at oryx.us Thu Sep 8 21:20:23 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2016 21:20:23 -0500 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: <2D8FE04695314F7497373825D3FD01B9@TeoPC> Message-ID: <57D21C67.20204@oryx.us> On 09/ 8/16 07:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 8 Sep 2016, TeoZ wrote: >> They never really show acceleration and deceleration onboard a spaceship >> affecting the crew so why bother with seat belts (that would be a pain for the >> actors to use)? Besides what good would they do if you actually hit something >> large in space at the speed of light. > > If you were going FTL, then you would just pass through it, without noticing. > > In ST:TOS, they command crew on the bridge were often thrown around in battle > scenes, etc. > Personally, I think the thing we have to look forward to from the bridge is explosives in the equipment consoles. Sad about the fatalities, but there is always a cost to pay. > >> Handheld phasers would be cool if somebody comes up with a batterY that hold >> crazy amounts of energy and would not short out in your pocket. > > Surely, the Star Trek phasers didn't need anything more than an LR44! From other at oryx.us Thu Sep 8 21:26:03 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2016 21:26:03 -0500 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <2D8FE04695314F7497373825D3FD01B9@TeoPC> References: <2D8FE04695314F7497373825D3FD01B9@TeoPC> Message-ID: <57D21DBB.5060502@oryx.us> On 09/ 8/16 07:05 PM, TeoZ wrote: > They never really show acceleration and deceleration onboard a spaceship > affecting the crew so why bother with seat belts (that would be a pain for the > actors to use)? Besides what good would they do if you actually hit something > large in space at the speed of light. > > Handheld phasers would be cool if somebody comes up with a batter that hold > crazy amounts of energy and would not short out in your pocket. > > Thats why I have no personal plans for a battery/electric car at any point in the near future. Batteries truly need to make a quantum leap forward before I would be sold on them. I have never been a big fan of asian automobiles, but Japan seem to be leading the world with hydrogen powered vehicles as things stand right now. Till some big leap forward appears in batteries, or something else, I'm personally hitching my horse wagon behind hydrogen power. Jerry From jsw at ieee.org Thu Sep 8 22:05:15 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 22:05:15 -0500 Subject: Q-Bus Memory Diagnostics and Repair In-Reply-To: <20160908172655.EACEB18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160908172655.EACEB18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Sep 8, 2016, at 12:26 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Jerry Weiss >> The first is an MSV11-PL 512KB-Q-Bus 22bit. >> Dead to both CSR and Memory address access in ODT. >> ... before start poking around with my scope ... can recommend a >> particular methodology to finding the fault. > > Well, the CSR and RAM address detection circuits are separate (page 5 of 11 > in the drawings), so since both are not responding, it has to be something in > common: perhaps something on the input side like a bus receiver (e.g. BSYNC, > pg 8), perhaps something on the output side like a control line driver (e.g. > BRPLY, same page), or some of the common circuitry that drives it (e.g. TRPLY > generation on pg. 5). > > The way to tackle this is to write a two instruction loop that reads the CSR > (that will be easier to grok than RAM access); it will need a NXM trap > catcher which just does an RTI, too; and don't forget to set up the SP. Then, > pick some likely point half way along the signal path (e.g. MSEL, on the > right hand edge of pg. 5), and see if that's doing what it should. If no, > start moving back upstream; if it is OK, start going downstream from there. > Thanks for the pointers, I?ll give that a try. >> The second board is a CMV1000 that probably has a bad Memory Chip. >> I don't have either prints or a manual for this board. > > Yes, either/both for this, and the sister CMV4000 (same board with 256K > chips) would be really fantastic to locate. I'm in the process of working out > what all the jumpers/mean do, and will work out which chips correspond to > which bits, and document them, like this page: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/CMV-504 > > However, we're not there yet for this card, so? > I?ve been making do with the SMS 1000 manual for the basic settings as well. >> I was expecting bad and xor to be 16bit values, but they appear to be >> mostly 22bit addresses. But then again this isn't a DEC board. > > That shouldn't make a difference. I can't make head or tail of the output > either; can anyone else help? (I don't use DEC diagnostics, I have rolled my > own PDP-11 memory diagnostic.) > >> The board itself is labeled with bits 0-7 P0 P1 8-15 across the top > > Well, that is a good hint... :-) > >> Any suggestions as to which chip might be suspect? > > Step A is to find out what the failing location(s) are, and what the bad data > is. So either figure out the DEC memory diagnostic output, or roll your own > (you can have mine if you like, I have Unix assembler source, or I can give > it to you in .LDA binary). I ran a different diagnostic w/o parity testing enabled. CVMSAC SWR = 000000 NEW = 100 KT11 (MEMORY MANAGEMENT) AVAILABLE 22 BIT ADR AVAIL MEMORY MAP: FROM 000000 TO 3777777 ADDRESS TEST ERROR(TST1-5). V/PC P/PC MA S/B WAS xor 007312 00007312 03561612 161612 161212 000400 007312 00007312 03561652 161652 161252 000400 007312 00007312 03562752 162752 162352 000400 007312 00007312 03563712 163712 163312 000400 007312 00007312 03565552 165552 165152 000400 007312 00007312 03565652 165652 165252 000400 ... CONSTANT DATA ERROR(TST6-10). 010102 00010102 03561412 000000 000400 010102 00010102 03561452 000000 000400 010102 00010102 03561512 000000 000400 010102 00010102 03561552 000000 000400 010102 00010102 03561612 000000 000400 010102 00010102 03561712 000000 000400 010102 00010102 03561752 000000 000400 010102 00010102 03562412 000000 000400 010102 00010102 03562452 000000 000400 010102 00010102 03562512 000000 000400 ? So it appears that bit 8 is the problem at the highest 128KB addresses. I see stuck bits and address decoding problems. It looks like some memory addresses return the contents of another address. That may be what the other diagnostic was trying to tell me as well. I may just clip the power lead on the chip I think is faulty to confirm I have the correct target. Hopefully the bit ordering matches the board marking and bottom row is the highest address of memory banks. If that doesn?t work, then I will take you up on your offer of memory diagnostic code. Thanks, Jerry From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 8 23:39:57 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 00:39:57 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <57D21DBB.5060502@oryx.us> References: <2D8FE04695314F7497373825D3FD01B9@TeoPC> <57D21DBB.5060502@oryx.us> Message-ID: <278108ABC8F9482C8E06EFD9966DD256@TeoPC> So your waiting for BMW or Mercedes to come out with the Hindenburg line of hydrogen powered vehicles? I hope before I die somebody comes out with a nuclear powered car that can do 300,000 miles per reactor replacement. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Kemp Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 10:26 PM To: General at classiccmp.org ; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! Till some big leap forward appears in batteries, or something else, I'm personally hitching my horse wagon behind hydrogen power. Jerry --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Sep 8 23:59:25 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 06:59:25 +0200 Subject: VC8E Option In-Reply-To: References: <5CC744CD21A94D8683849C7239814345@Vincew7> Message-ID: <20160909045925.GS3629@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Sep 07, 2016 at 04:34:32PM -0500, Kyle Owen wrote: > > Now I'm working on real VC8E integration into SimH to better tell how these > programs work. Anyone want to help? :) Hmm, yes, I think I might actually. What do you have so far? /P From starbase89 at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 00:12:05 2016 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 01:12:05 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <643750A0-E99B-4F69-B027-621869B0E9EC@pski.net> References: <9306C470-B2B7-4691-BDB5-4CD5186F6862@pski.net> <643750A0-E99B-4F69-B027-621869B0E9EC@pski.net> Message-ID: It's funny you bring up Alexa and Siri. I read an article a few days ago about how Majel Barrett, the voice of the ship's computer from TOS to the first reboot movie (and Gene Roddenberry's wife) recorded a phonetic library shortly before her death. I know that Google at one point had a speech system called "Majel." I don't know if it is related, but it would be pretty cool if it was... On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > >> On Sep 8, 2016, at 1:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> On 09/08/2016 10:25 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >> >>> A few examples are the PADD (iPad and other tablets) and the >>> Communicator (Mobile Phones). >> >> Maybe, but the computer "brain" IIRC was always shipboard. Dick Tracy >> had the 2-way wrist radio decades before. >> > > That reminds me of another one. Amazon's Alexa and Apple?s Siri are not quite there yet but are very similar to the voice-interactive main computer from the Enterprise. From smj at ma.sdf.org Thu Sep 8 15:53:19 2016 From: smj at ma.sdf.org (smj at ma.sdf.org) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 20:53:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: {wtb} DEC VT100 5 spoke rolling stands Message-ID: <201609082053.u88KrJfV018508@ma.sdf.org> I'm looking for a couple DEC VT100 5 spoke rolling table stands. Please contact me privately if you have one available. Thank you From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 02:59:48 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 00:59:48 -0700 Subject: Components available - the rest of the story In-Reply-To: <016101d209f3$a2594cf0$e70be6d0$@computer.org> References: <016101d209f3$a2594cf0$e70be6d0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <284A3B41-4F7F-49CD-A49D-139125EEA114@gmail.com> I might be interested, as I already have two FFT systems that I am restoring (an HP 5420A and a HP 5451C). I am local. Just drop me an email. Marc Sent from my iPad > On Sep 8, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: > > The rest of the story. > > As Al pointed out, much to our surprise, the museum has rejected an offer > from Art's estate for the donation of a Fast Fourier Transform computing > system which included both the Unicomp Computer and a hardware FFT > accelerator. This is a very strange decision since the system is one of the > earliest if not the first implementation of a FFT in anti-submarine and > anti-aircraft warfare. FFT mathematics dates to 1965 but processor until > much later had the power to do it real time in software at the resolution > necessary, so Art invented the hardware accelerator and multiple units were > sold to the Navy. The estate is appealing the museum's decision. > > The estate would like to keep the FFT system together and so if the museum > continues with a cranial rectal inversion it will look to other alternatives > including those of u who have already > > I will respond by email not later than tomorrow to the several list members > who expressed interest in the components and/or the computer. I'm busy > today helping set up the Atari retrospective for the IEEE Silicon Valley > History Committee. > > Regards, > > Tom > > Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:16:23 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Components available > > >> On 9/6/16 4:18 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >> >> A friend of mine died recently; he was amongst many things an >> electronics tinkerer and has a closet full of small parts in bin >> cabinets (resistors, capacitors, ICs, transistors, hardware, etc.). > > > There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, and FFT > processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) with full documentation. > > I walked out of the donations meeting with the other curators today who > thought it was a piece of s**t and didn't want to take it, calling it a > 'dumpster fire' > > Art was a friend of mine. > > Hopefully it can go someplace where it can be appreciated. > Talk to Tom about it, unfortunately, time is short. > > > > > -- > 73 AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 03:15:17 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 01:15:17 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <011f01d20954$c1e1cfb0$45a56f10$@gmail.com> <012301d20959$4270be30$c7523a90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18FA88D6-CC48-4D03-BD41-081A69A876B8@gmail.com> > On Sep 7, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Yep, the NEC uPD416D's are what we have in the Alto we recently restored. > And yeah, it takes awhile, but it's worth the effort :). > > Have fun! > - Josh Out of curiosity, did you find any bad RAM chips in your system? If so, how many? I had only one bad one in one of my HP 85 (out of 8), but it definitely happens. Marc From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 03:29:22 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 01:29:22 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <18FA88D6-CC48-4D03-BD41-081A69A876B8@gmail.com> References: <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <011f01d20954$c1e1cfb0$45a56f10$@gmail.com> <012301d20959$4270be30$c7523a90$@gmail.com> <18FA88D6-CC48-4D03-BD41-081A69A876B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8aca4fc6-ad22-307f-7ca8-c9c56767ea27@gmail.com> On 9/9/16 1:15 AM, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: >> On Sep 7, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> Yep, the NEC uPD416D's are what we have in the Alto we recently restored. >> And yeah, it takes awhile, but it's worth the effort :). >> >> Have fun! >> - Josh > Out of curiosity, did you find any bad RAM chips in your system? If so, how many? I had only one bad one in one of my HP 85 (out of 8), but it definitely happens. > Marc Yes, there were two, if I recall correctly. And while swapping memory chips out for testing, I found one with a bent-over pin that had likely been that way since it was installed in the 70s. It apparently worked (at least back in the day -- it made contact with the pin in the socket) but I decided to fix it anyway. We found several other ICs in the system that had similarly bent pins, some of which were causing intermittent problems. In daily use at the LCM, we have had several RAM chips in our Altos fail. Fortunately, the DMT (Diagnostic Memory Test) that runs when the system goes idle finds them pretty quickly (and tells you where the bad chip is, too...) - Josh From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 03:35:04 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 09:35:04 +0100 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <18FA88D6-CC48-4D03-BD41-081A69A876B8@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <011f01d20954$c1e1cfb0$45a56f10$@gmail.com> <012301d20959$4270be30$c7523a90$@gmail.com> <18FA88D6-CC48-4D03-BD41-081A69A876B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Apropos of 4116 RAM chips over the last 8 or so months I've restored 4 CBM PETs, 3 Apple ][s and a few Sinclair ZX Spectrums. All these use either 4116-2 or 4116-3 (or can use either as long as they're matched in 8s) and they've all had one or more RAM failures. I built a rudimentary chip tester using a Spectrum board that I fitted a small ribbon cable and ZIF socket to the end-most lower RAM chip location and replaced the BASIC PROM with a diagnostic EEPROM so all I need to do is power up with the suspect chip in the ZIF socket and it gets tested with the other 7. It's not an exhaustive test at all but like all other 4116 based machines it needs 8 good ones to boot so it might be worth making such a thing for the Alto. Adrian On 9 September 2016 at 09:15, wrote: > > On Sep 7, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > Yep, the NEC uPD416D's are what we have in the Alto we recently restored. > > And yeah, it takes awhile, but it's worth the effort :). > > > > Have fun! > > - Josh > Out of curiosity, did you find any bad RAM chips in your system? If so, > how many? I had only one bad one in one of my HP 85 (out of 8), but it > definitely happens. > Marc -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 03:56:59 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 02:56:59 -0600 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <011f01d20954$c1e1cfb0$45a56f10$@gmail.com> <012301d20959$4270be30$c7523a90$@gmail.com> <18FA88D6-CC48-4D03-BD41-081A69A876B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 2:35 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Apropos of 4116 RAM chips over the last 8 or so months I've restored 4 CBM > PETs, 3 Apple ][s and a few Sinclair ZX Spectrums. All these use either > 4116-2 or 4116-3 (or can use either as long as they're matched in 8s) and > they've all had one or more RAM failures. There's no reason why the speed grades of the RAMs have to be matched, as long as they are all AT LEAST as fast as the machine requires. Note that the speed grade of a DRAM only guarantees that it is at least as fast as the grade; it may be faster. For instance, an MK4116-2 is rated for maximum 150 ns access, while an MK4116-3 is rated for maximum 200 ns access. If a machine is designed to work with the MK4116-3 (maximum 200 ns access), either the MK4116-2 or MK4116-3 will work, and the machine cannot distinguish them, as it's entirely possible and likely that many 4116-3 chips are under typical conditions actually just as fast as the 4116-2. This is true whether the mix of -2 and -3 parts are in the same bank or different banks. Of course, the reverse is not true. If the machine is designed to require the 150 ns access DRAM, there's no way to be sure that a 200 ns rated DRAM will work. It's possible that it may work most of the time, but fail to deliver the correct data very rarely. Unfortunately in systems without error checking, this can silently corrupt your data, which may not be apparent until much later, e.g., if data in memory is written to a disk file. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 9 09:29:51 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 10:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Q-Bus Memory Diagnostics and Repair Message-ID: <20160909142951.AD1C518C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jerry Weiss > I'll give that a try. Please let us know how you make out with it! :-) > I've been making do with the SMS 1000 manual for the basic settings as > well. Yeah, that's better than nothing. I just looked over my notes from looking into the CMV-x000, and alas I don't have any useful data to report (yet). > I ran a different diagnostic w/o parity testing enabled. That's kind of odd; the top block of results make it look like it's dropping the 0400 bit (e.g. "S/B", which I assume means 'should be', = 161612, and "WAS" = 161212 makes it sound like it dropped the 0400 bit); but the block below makes it look like it's picking that bit (it shows 0 and 0400 under the S/B and WAS columns for that location). Eh, no biggie; clearly the 0400 bit has issues! ;-) > I see stuck bits and address decoding problems. It looks like some > memory addresses return the contents of another address. Not sure I see that happening? If your CPU is an 11/73 (which can directly 'access' [hate that verbism :-] all of memory from ODT, unlike the 11/23 which is restricted to the bottom 256KB), try playing around with a failing location, and its alternative, directly, and see if a store of random data into one can be read back directly from the other; e.g. set 03561212 to 0, store 0123456 in 03561612, and then try reading 03561212, etc. Then go back to 03561612 and see if you get 0123456 back when reading it. Etc, etc. That should quickly verify if the problem is just some locations which drop/pick bits, or if there are addressing issues. > I may just clip the power lead on the chip I think is faulty to confirm > I have the correct target. I looked at my CMV-x000 boards, and on all of them, the chips are soldered in, not socketed (which most of the other ones I looked into had, which made working out the chip<->bit tables very easy - pull random chips, and see what happened :-). But your proposed move should let you identify if you have the right chip. Once done, you might want to check low memory from ODT to make sure you don't have the banks inverted (i.e. what looks like the top bank is not in fact the bottom). It probably wouldn't boot the diagnostics, if so, but it'd nice to find out directly! > Hopefully the bit ordering matches the board marking and bottom row is > the highest address of memory banks. Please let me know what the layout is, and I'll start the Computer History wiki page for this board with that info. Noel From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Fri Sep 9 09:55:12 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 08:55:12 -0600 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 8 Sep 2016, Murray McCullough wrote: > And use so much transparent aluminum. > Transparent aluminum exists. It is called sapphire. Sapphire is the crystalline form of aluminum oxide. If you recall, Apple was thinking of using it for the touch screen face of the iphone. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Sep 9 10:07:02 2016 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 17:07:02 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C7FECD5FF3A4AFCAEC8BE5B03A16018@Vincew7> References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> <3C7FECD5FF3A4AFCAEC8BE5B03A16018@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Sep 2016, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Kyle Owen: Thursday, September 08, 2016 5:43 PM >> On Sep 8, 2016 8:28 PM, "Vincent Slyngstad" wrote: >>> That should probably be: >>> 7 00402 7620 snl cla / Link set? >>> 8 00403 7140 cll cma / No, remember it >>> >>> Needs more testing :-/. Yes, I think, there is a bug in your code: SNL CLA /CLA IS REDUNDANT, AS AC is 0 here CLL CMA /CLL MAKES NO SENSE BECAUSE LINK IS NOT SET, IF THE SNL /DOES NOT SKIP CLL /IS NEEDED AFTER THE SNL, OTHERWAYS THE MSB WOULD BE /INVERTED AFTER THE BSW-ROUTINE. I tried both versions with the emulator, and both gave identical results. So I tested another "BSW"-replacement, simply: BSWEMU, 0000 RTR RTR RTR JMP I BSWEMU This also worked. ;-) I didn't look in the code, but evidently the BSWs are only used, to get the higher 6 bits of a word. And now another question came up. What does a hp-calculator answer, if you ask fot tan(90)? Answer: hp35_emu: 90 t gives 9.9999999999 E99 hp35_real: didn't find the power supply :-( hp9100: 90 tan gives 9.9999999999 E99 hp9810: 90 tan gives 9.9999999999 E98 (yes, E98!) hp9820: 90 tan gives "NOTE 01" Here are the three version of BSW: / K. KRAUSE K. OWEN V. SLYNGSTEDT BSWEMU, NOP /BSWSUB, 0 /BSW, 0 DCA AC / DCA BSWTMP / DCA SAVEAC RAL / SZL / SNL DCA LINK / TAD C0100 / CMA TAD AC / DCA BSWLINK / CLL RTR / TAD BSWTMP / DCA SAVEL RTR / CLL / TAD SAVEAC RTR / AND C7700 / AND C7700 AND M0077 / RAL / TAD SAVEAC DCA BH / TAD BSWLNK / RTL TAD AC / DCA BSWLNK / RTL AND M0077 / TAD BSWTMP / RTL RTL / AND C0077 / ISZ SAVEL RTL / TAD BSWLNK / CML RTL / RTL / JMP I BSW TAD BH / RTL /SAVEAC,0 CLL RAL / RTL /SAVEL, 0 TAD LINK / JMP I BSWSUB /C7700, 7700 RAR / BSWTMP JMP I BSWEMU / BSWLNK AC, 0000 / C7700 LINK, 0000 / C0077 BH, 0000 / C0100 M0077, 0077 / I added literals an temporary locations to the code, because one cannot be sure, that a special literal, as for example 0100 or 0077 exists in the other code. Klemens -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Fri Sep 9 10:36:19 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 09:36:19 -0600 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <57D21DBB.5060502@oryx.us> References: <2D8FE04695314F7497373825D3FD01B9@TeoPC> <57D21DBB.5060502@oryx.us> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > > Thats why I have no personal plans for a battery/electric car at any point > in the near future. Batteries truly need to make a quantum leap forward > before I would be sold on them. BEV's are practical today. Much safer than gasoline. Range is adequate. > I have never been a big fan of asian automobiles, but Japan seem to be > leading the world with hydrogen powered vehicles as things stand right now. > Till some big leap forward appears in batteries, or something else, I'm > personally hitching my horse wagon behind hydrogen power. Every time someone with any credibility says something good about using hydrogen as a fuel I have to remind myself that I have looked at the numbers and it is impossible to make hydrogen a practical fuel for automobiles. The economics of production, transportation, storage and conversion are insurmountable. Why Toyota and Honda are convinced otherwise is a total mystery. Hydrogen has only one plus as a fuel. It has the highest energy per unit of mass. It makes OK rocket fuel when compressed and chilled to a liquid. Note that the most common rocket propellant is LOX and Kerosene, not LOX and Liquid Hydrogen. This is purely for economic reasons. For cars this is a reasonable summary of the issues: https://www.carthrottle.com/post/engineering-explained-5-reasons-why-hydrogen-cars-are-stupid/ The only issue with BEV's other than initial cost is you can't take road trips in them (except for Tesla). Otherwise they make ideal commuter cars assuming you have a place to charge at home or at work. Cost to operate is currently 1/5 that of gasoline and when gas goes back up to its record levels it will be 1/8th the cost. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Sep 9 10:39:10 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 08:39:10 -0700 Subject: Components available - the rest of the story In-Reply-To: <284A3B41-4F7F-49CD-A49D-139125EEA114@gmail.com> References: <016101d209f3$a2594cf0$e70be6d0$@computer.org> <284A3B41-4F7F-49CD-A49D-139125EEA114@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Sep 9, 2016, at 00:59, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: > > I might be interested, as I already have two FFT systems that I am restoring (an HP 5420A and a HP 5451C). I am local. Just drop me an email. If Marc adopts it, he'll surely make some excellent Youtube videos about it! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Sep 9 10:47:22 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 09:47:22 -0600 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <011f01d20954$c1e1cfb0$45a56f10$@gmail.com> <012301d20959$4270be30$c7523a90$@gmail.com> <18FA88D6-CC48-4D03-BD41-081A69A876B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 2:56 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Note that the speed grade of a DRAM only guarantees that it is at > least as fast as the grade; it may be faster. For instance, an > MK4116-2 is rated for maximum 150 ns access, while an MK4116-3 is > rated for maximum 200 ns access. If a machine is designed to work > with the MK4116-3 (maximum 200 ns access), either the MK4116-2 or > MK4116-3 will work, and the machine cannot distinguish them, as it's > entirely possible and likely that many 4116-3 chips are under typical > conditions actually just as fast as the 4116-2. This is true whether > the mix of -2 and -3 parts are in the same bank or different banks. I once worked on an ISA board that was perfect. The driver worked, we got good data. We could control the system we needed to based on a stream of measurements from the board. We moved on to other projects, but maybe 6 or 7 years later another customer had a need almost identical to the first. We found we didn't have enough parts left over from before so we had to buy new FIFOs to build new boards. The FIFOs we used were 200ns parts (I forget the number), so we bought a bunch and set to building new boards. In test we found the card was misbehaving once in a while (like maybe once a day). Of course, the driver was blamed (I hated that, as the driver writer). Long story short: the hardware design had some asynchronous elements that depended on the 200ns timing. The FIFOs were actually a faster 100ns version that was marked for 200ns because the times were a maximum and it was easier to make one speed grade and sell it into many different legacy markets. Once we corrected the asynchronous behavior in the circuit, everything worked again. So even getting an identical part number won't guarantee an identical part due to changes in process :( Warner From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 11:42:24 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 11:42:24 -0500 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> <3C7FECD5FF3A4AFCAEC8BE5B03A16018@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Klemens Krause < krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > > I tried both versions with the emulator, and both gave identical > results. So I tested another "BSW"-replacement, simply: > BSWEMU, 0000 > RTR > RTR > RTR > JMP I BSWEMU > This also worked. ;-) I didn't look in the code, but evidently the > BSWs are only used, to get the higher 6 bits of a word. > I'm pleasantly surprised this worked, as I see several cases in my code where I'm using BSW to shift 6 times to the left, which isn't the same as shifting 6 times to the right since there's that pesky link bit, unless I'm missing something obvious here. Hmm. I'm updating the code to selectively use three RTRs or three RTLs instead of BSW with the single field option enabled. And now another question came up. What does a hp-calculator answer, > if you ask fot tan(90)? > > Answer: > hp35_emu: 90 t gives 9.9999999999 E99 > hp35_real: didn't find the power supply :-( > hp9100: 90 tan gives 9.9999999999 E99 > hp9810: 90 tan gives 9.9999999999 E98 (yes, E98!) > hp9820: 90 tan gives "NOTE 01" > Huh. E98...that's pretty odd. Wonder what the algorithm looks like for the 9810. The real HP-35 gives E99 like the emulator. I'll push the changes soon; please give it a try on your 4K machine and let me know how it does! Thanks, Kyle From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Sep 9 12:45:17 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2016 19:45:17 +0200 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1473443117.11279.11.camel@agj.net> tor 2016-09-08 klockan 13:03 -0400 skrev Murray McCullough: > What role did Star Trek play in the rise of small computers that are > so ubiquitous today? This science fiction series prognosticated many > things but how many actually happened or am I expecting too much from > a television show of 50 years ago? > My beginner UX book described an experiment there the theory revolved around the value of process understanding vs manipulating by rote. To test the theory they did a Starship Enterprise weapon console mockup (without the core and the high power laser...) If you need to fire the phaser , you need to redirect some of the power which the core deliver from for example antigrav to the weapon. The by-roote (wrong word, but i'm thinking about how a mariner would be instructed) method is : turn this dial from 7 to 4 that from 0 to 3 press that button The process and system knowledge would mean that the officer would understand why and why it must be so that the first dial was at value 6. Including I NEED TO DO THIS 1 tenth second FASTER. From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 13:13:52 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 13:13:52 -0500 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> <3C7FECD5FF3A4AFCAEC8BE5B03A16018@Vincew7> Message-ID: Just pushed the changes; please give it a try! Printing terminal support is next, then maybe I'll tackle the HP-45 error display. Thanks! Kyle From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Sep 9 13:22:33 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 11:22:33 -0700 Subject: AS400 Model 170 potentially available... Message-ID: <20160909112233.091f6df0@asrock.bcwi.net> Weirdstuff has been offered an AS400 Model 170 located in a data center. If anyone is interested in purchasing it, let me know off list - please include the approximate price you'd be willing to pay for the critter. I'll pass your info on to Weirdstuff so they can decide whether to make a bid on it or not. Note: I am not affiliated with Weirdstuff other than as a paying client. They don't like to see vintage gear scrapped anymore than I do. Regards, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From pete at pski.net Fri Sep 9 13:39:43 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 14:39:43 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Sep 9, 2016, at 10:55 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > > Transparent aluminum exists. It is called sapphire. Sapphire is the > crystalline form of aluminum oxide. If you recall, Apple was thinking of > using it for the touch screen face of the iphone. > Ah yes, but can you make in sheets 60 feet by 10 feet by 1 inch thick and withstand the pressure of 18,000 cu ft of water? :) From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 15:14:41 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 15:14:41 -0500 Subject: VC8E Option In-Reply-To: <20160909045925.GS3629@Update.UU.SE> References: <5CC744CD21A94D8683849C7239814345@Vincew7> <20160909045925.GS3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:59 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Hmm, yes, I think I might actually. What do you have so far? > I don't have much yet, unfortunately; still trying to get my thoughts together on how it should be implemented. Mark Pizzolato recommends using as much existing display code as possible. I did start an issue for it here, though: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/337 Kyle From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Fri Sep 9 15:23:59 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 14:23:59 -0600 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > > > On Sep 9, 2016, at 10:55 AM, Doug Ingraham > wrote: > > > > Transparent aluminum exists. It is called sapphire. Sapphire is the > > crystalline form of aluminum oxide. If you recall, Apple was thinking of > > using it for the touch screen face of the iphone. > > > > Ah yes, but can you make in sheets 60 feet by 10 feet by 1 inch thick and > withstand the pressure of 18,000 cu ft of water? :) The answer is probably yes, but not for anything like a reasonable amount of money or in a reasonable amount of time. It would probably take a couple of years to grow a crystal that size. There was a company making the ovens used to make billets of sapphire about 18 inches in diameter and a foot tall from which they would cut out the pieces they would need with presumably a diamond saw. These billets would take something like a month to grow so you would need a lot of them to make your screens in the multi million quantities. And these billets had imperfections you had to work around. In 1986 it would probably have taken Mr Scotts technical know how. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Sep 9 15:36:49 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 13:36:49 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20637CEF-CBCB-4C8C-9A51-30F0C533B29A@shiresoft.com> > On Sep 9, 2016, at 1:23 PM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > >> >>> On Sep 9, 2016, at 10:55 AM, Doug Ingraham >> wrote: >>> >>> Transparent aluminum exists. It is called sapphire. Sapphire is the >>> crystalline form of aluminum oxide. If you recall, Apple was thinking of >>> using it for the touch screen face of the iphone. >>> >> >> Ah yes, but can you make in sheets 60 feet by 10 feet by 1 inch thick and >> withstand the pressure of 18,000 cu ft of water? :) > > > The answer is probably yes, but not for anything like a reasonable amount > of money or in a reasonable amount of time. It would probably take a > couple of years to grow a crystal that size. There was a company making > the ovens used to make billets of sapphire about 18 inches in diameter and > a foot tall from which they would cut out the pieces they would need with > presumably a diamond saw. These billets would take something like a month > to grow so you would need a lot of them to make your screens in the multi > million quantities. And these billets had imperfections you had to work > around. In 1986 it would probably have taken Mr Scotts technical know how. > > Actually it actually *does* exist and is reasonable to manufacture. Here?s the article: http://www.nrl.navy.mil/media/news-releases/2015/transparent-armor-from-nrl-spinel-could-also-ruggedize-your-smart-phone It?s basically a sintered process where the ceramic is formed (this particular one is called spinel) and the process is to put the powder in a press, raise the temperature and evacuate the air. The result is a clear crystal that has better properties than glass. The size of the piece is only limited by the size of the press. TTFN - Guy From t.gardner at computer.org Fri Sep 9 16:35:21 2016 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 14:35:21 -0700 Subject: Unicomp Minicomputers [WAS: RE: Components available] Message-ID: <008f01d20ae2$120f6090$362e21b0$@computer.org> See http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/unicomp/UNICOMP_Brochure_19 70.pdf Unicomp became Spectra Data became Gilmore Industries and then ??? Art worked for Unicomp Tom -----Original Message----- From: Mark J. Blair [mailto:nf6x at nf6x.net] Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 2:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Components available I am not at all familiar with Unicomp minicomputers, and I'd love to see pictures of this one. I'm sorry that I'm not closer to the machine, but it sounds like heroic rescuers are already lined up to keep it from getting scrapped. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 9 16:43:46 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2016 22:43:46 +0100 Subject: TK50 with DEC All-in-1 In-Reply-To: <14E17DDD-2301-430B-82ED-987CECD35484@atarimuseum.com> References: <14E17DDD-2301-430B-82ED-987CECD35484@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <57D32D12.8050905@ntlworld.com> On 08/09/16 21:03, Curt wrote: > Anyone have a TK50 install of this ? > > Either for sale, trade or loan? > I doubt that I have it on TK50, but I am curious. Why does it need to be on TK50? Surely if all you want if the bits, then any of the CDROM distributions that carried ALL-IN-1 would do? If you really need it on TK50 to install on a system, then you could transfer to TK50 yourself. Or do you actually want an original DEC TK50 distribution of ALL-IN-1? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 9 16:53:37 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 22:53:37 +0100 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice Message-ID: <040001d20ae4$a0892750$e19b75f0$@ntlworld.com> I finally managed to pick up a logic analyser for a price I could justify. It is a HP1630G and it comes with a number of pods. However the pods do not seem to have the actual wires/probes. Is there a separate part number for these that I should look for. There seem to be quite a few items like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291753390848, are these likely to be suitable alternatives? Thanks Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 9 18:11:13 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 19:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Q-Bus Memory Diagnostics and Repair Message-ID: <20160909231113.C2BBF18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > If your CPU is an 11/73 (which can directly 'access' [hate that verbism > :-] all of memory from ODT, unlike the 11/23 which is restricted to the > bottom 256KB), try playing around with a failing location, and its > alternative, directly, and see if a store of random data into one can be > read back directly from the other Note: The 11/'73' CPU powers up with the cache enabled, even for ODT! So if you write xxx into some location, if you then read it back, you will get the correct data even if the memory location is busted - the CPU is getting the (correct) data from the cache. To have your 'memory' reads and writes actually go to the memory, you need to turn off the cache: 17777746/ 02000 Note that starting the machine does an INIT, which will again enable the cache. > I'll start the Computer History wiki page for this board with that info. Started: http://gunkies.org/w/index.php?title=CMV-4000 Currently has only the memory chip info, I'll add the config stuff as I get it doped out. Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Sep 9 18:38:44 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 00:38:44 +0100 Subject: TK50 with DEC All-in-1 In-Reply-To: <57D32D12.8050905@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 09/09/2016 22:43, "Antonio Carlini" wrote: > On 08/09/16 21:03, Curt wrote: >> Anyone have a TK50 install of this ? >> >> Either for sale, trade or loan? >> > > I doubt that I have it on TK50, but I am curious. > > Why does it need to be on TK50? Surely if all you want if the bits, then > any of the > CDROM distributions that carried ALL-IN-1 would do? If you really need > it on TK50 to > install on a system, then you could transfer to TK50 yourself. > > Or do you actually want an original DEC TK50 distribution of ALL-IN-1? I was thinking this since surely a lot of us have All-in-pieces on CD. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Sep 9 19:18:27 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 17:18:27 -0700 Subject: Unicomp Minicomputers [WAS: RE: Components available] In-Reply-To: <008f01d20ae2$120f6090$362e21b0$@computer.org> References: <008f01d20ae2$120f6090$362e21b0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <5C4D49A0-D7A1-49F9-8395-DFB5419E513E@nf6x.net> > On Sep 9, 2016, at 14:35, Tom Gardner wrote: > > See > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/unicomp/UNICOMP_Brochure_1970.pdf Thank you! They look neat. I should have thought to look at Bitsavers to see what they were about. I blame this cold that is addling my brain more than usual; it certainly could not be due to my normal baseline level of addle. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From isking at uw.edu Fri Sep 9 20:04:33 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 18:04:33 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: <040001d20ae4$a0892750$e19b75f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <040001d20ae4$a0892750$e19b75f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Do you have the grey rectangular bits that plug into the pods? If not, you're pretty much screwed - they are (were) a proprietary part. I have a 1630G and I really like it, but I held out until I could find one with the bits that plug into the pods, since they are unobtainium. On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I finally managed to pick up a logic analyser for a price I could justify. > It is a HP1630G and it comes with a number of pods. However the pods do not > seem to have the actual wires/probes. Is there a separate part number for > these that I should look for. There seem to be quite a few items like this: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291753390848, are these likely to be suitable > alternatives? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From jsw at ieee.org Fri Sep 9 20:17:56 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 20:17:56 -0500 Subject: Q-Bus Memory Diagnostics and Repair In-Reply-To: <20160909231113.C2BBF18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160909231113.C2BBF18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sep 9, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> If your CPU is an 11/73 (which can directly 'access' [hate that verbism >> :-] all of memory from ODT, unlike the 11/23 which is restricted to the >> bottom 256KB), try playing around with a failing location, and its >> alternative, directly, and see if a store of random data into one can be >> read back directly from the other > > Note: The 11/'73' CPU powers up with the cache enabled, even for ODT! > > So if you write xxx into some location, if you then read it back, you will get > the correct data even if the memory location is busted - the CPU is getting > the (correct) data from the cache. To have your 'memory' reads and writes > actually go to the memory, you need to turn off the cache: > > 17777746/ 02000 > > Note that starting the machine does an INIT, which will again enable the > cache. > That?s a very good piece of information, I hadn?t considered that. I have 11/73. I?ve checked the memory with ODT and can confirm the stuck bit. I found that EK-MSV1Q-UG-002_MSV11Q_5-85.pdf describes how the CVMSAA diagnostic works. "Section 1: Address Tests These tests verify the uniqueness of every memory address.Test 1 writes and reads the value of each memory word address into that memory location. After all memory has been written, all locations are checked again. ? I interpret this as mean it will deposit 1000 into @1000, and that will be read back as 1400 given the bad bit. So if you have stuck bit, the test for uniqueness gives a false positive. A comic ray probably took out a logic gate, as there is a pattern of stuck 1 bits in the chip. As soon as I pick up a spare chip, I start to get invasive. A careful clipped VCC is easily restored if its the wrong chip. Jerry From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Sep 9 20:41:27 2016 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 01:41:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: References: <040001d20ae4$a0892750$e19b75f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <12940094.2759008.1473471687266@mail.yahoo.com> On the 1630 series, the active logic is all in the pods. ?The connectors on the flywires are proprietary HP parts with a mechanical latch to lock them into the pods. but I've seen multiple mentions in discussion groups of folks using stock Molex connectors to connect to the pods. --Bill From: Ian S. King To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Friday, September 9, 2016 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Logic Analyser Advice Do you have the grey rectangular bits that plug into the pods?? If not, you're pretty much screwed - they are (were) a proprietary part. I have a 1630G and I really like it, but I held out until I could find one with the bits that plug into the pods, since they are unobtainium. On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I finally managed to pick up a logic analyser for a price I could justify. > It is a HP1630G and it comes with a number of pods. However the pods do not > seem to have the actual wires/probes. Is there a separate part number for > these that I should look for. There seem to be quite a few items like this: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291753390848, are these likely to be suitable > alternatives? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 9 20:53:34 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 18:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Transparent aluminum exists. It is called sapphire. Sapphire is the >> crystalline form of aluminum oxide. If you recall, Apple was thinking of >> using it for the touch screen face of the iphone. On Fri, 9 Sep 2016, Peter Cetinski wrote: > Ah yes, but can you make in sheets 60 feet by 10 feet by 1 inch thick > and withstand the pressure of 18,000 cu ft of water? :) Not right now. Stuck on an "Error 53" From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 9 20:54:04 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 21:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Logic Analyser Advice Message-ID: <20160910015404.CEE0218C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ian S. King > Do you have the grey rectangular bits that plug into the pods? If not, > you're pretty much screwed Not necessarily. I bought a couple of Tek 1240's, without pods or probes, but managed to locate a goodly supply of each on eBait. The key for me was to find the original Tek part number for the pods and probes, and then search for that. The same might work for this HP thingy. Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 9 20:58:03 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 18:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <20637CEF-CBCB-4C8C-9A51-30F0C533B29A@shiresoft.com> References: <20637CEF-CBCB-4C8C-9A51-30F0C533B29A@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Sep 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Actually it actually *does* exist and is reasonable to manufacture. Here?s the > article: http://www.nrl.navy.mil/media/news-releases/2015/transparent-armor-from-nrl-spinel-could-also-ruggedize-your-smart-phone > > It?s basically a sintered process where the ceramic is formed (this particular one is called spinel) > and the process is to put the powder in a press, raise the temperature and evacuate the air. > The result is a clear crystal that has better properties than glass. The size of the piece is only > limited by the size of the press. >>> Ah yes, but can you make in sheets 60 feet by 10 feet by 1 inch thick and >>> withstand the pressure of 18,000 cu ft of water? :) THAT would be a big heated vacuum press From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 21:20:42 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 19:20:42 -0700 Subject: WTB: GRiDcase 3 screen or entire GRiDcase 3 or 1520 with small plasma for parts Message-ID: Mine just died, an entire row driver went out. I just bought this thing! :( -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From useddec at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 21:54:53 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 21:54:53 -0500 Subject: DEC, non DEC at VCF Message-ID: The following is a partial list of things I plan on bringing to VCF tomorrow. I plan on being there by noon, and will return home Saturday night. If you have any interest, flag me down. If I have time I?ll try to grab some 8 boards. Thanks, Paul M3106 DZQ11 M3107 DHQ11 M7081 LA120 LOGIC BOARD M7504 DEQNA M7546 M7677 11/84 M7846 RX11 M7940 DLV11 M7944 MSV11-B M7946 RXV11 M7955 MSV11CD M7957 DZV11 4 LINE M8012 BDV11 M8013 RLV11 M8014 RLV11 M8015 KPV11-A M8017 DLV11-E M8021 MRV11-BA M8027 LPV11 M8029 RXV21 M8043 DLV11-J M8044 MSV11-DD M8053 DMV11 M8959F 64K M8059K128K M8067F 64KW M8067 128KW M8186 11/23 CPU M8189 11/23+ CPU M8190-A KDJ11-BF M9047 GRANT G7273 GRANT PDP8-E no cards VT52, untested 2 computer automation naked minis-never used mini 4 9 full cards can't see model of the other one, but i think it is a 4 or 5 card 2 motorola M-4408 NIB, bought new from Carroll Touch, a local company that made early touch screens for plato. Nova 3 no boards, nice clean Kennedy 9610, very clean From isking at uw.edu Fri Sep 9 23:04:06 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 21:04:06 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: <20160910015404.CEE0218C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160910015404.CEE0218C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I did that research regarding the HPs, without as much success as you obviously enjoyed. Tek and HP are really different beasts, in my experience. On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ian S. King > > > Do you have the grey rectangular bits that plug into the pods? If > not, > > you're pretty much screwed > > Not necessarily. I bought a couple of Tek 1240's, without pods or probes, > but > managed to locate a goodly supply of each on eBait. > > The key for me was to find the original Tek part number for the pods and > probes, and then search for that. The same might work for this HP thingy. > > Noel > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Sep 9 23:21:45 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 21:21:45 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: <20637CEF-CBCB-4C8C-9A51-30F0C533B29A@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Sep 9, 2016, at 6:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Fri, 9 Sep 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> Actually it actually *does* exist and is reasonable to manufacture. Here?s the >> article: http://www.nrl.navy.mil/media/news-releases/2015/transparent-armor-from-nrl-spinel-could-also-ruggedize-your-smart-phone >> >> It?s basically a sintered process where the ceramic is formed (this particular one is called spinel) >> and the process is to put the powder in a press, raise the temperature and evacuate the air. >> The result is a clear crystal that has better properties than glass. The size of the piece is only >> limited by the size of the press. > >>>> Ah yes, but can you make in sheets 60 feet by 10 feet by 1 inch thick and >>>> withstand the pressure of 18,000 cu ft of water? :) > > THAT would be a big heated vacuum press ?and if someone decided they needed it, it would get built. To ?cure? some of the composites on the 777X, Boing is building 3 autoclaves that are 28 ft wide and 120 ft long so it?s not outside of the realm of possibilities. What *is* cool about the process for ?transparent aluminum? is that it?s scalable. To get bigger pieces you just need a bigger press. Unfortunately it probably will never be as cheap as large scale glass making which can be done on a continuous process. TTFN - Guy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 9 23:21:06 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 22:21:06 -0600 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: References: <20637CEF-CBCB-4C8C-9A51-30F0C533B29A@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <2e1ac965-d1e2-fd64-3f4b-9a53984e4724@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/9/2016 7:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 9 Sep 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> Actually it actually *does* exist and is reasonable to manufacture. >> Here?s the >> article: >> http://www.nrl.navy.mil/media/news-releases/2015/transparent-armor-from-nrl-spinel-could-also-ruggedize-your-smart-phone >> >> >> It?s basically a sintered process where the ceramic is formed (this >> particular one is called spinel) >> and the process is to put the powder in a press, raise the temperature >> and evacuate the air. >> The result is a clear crystal that has better properties than glass. >> The size of the piece is only >> limited by the size of the press. > >>>> Ah yes, but can you make in sheets 60 feet by 10 feet by 1 inch >>>> thick and >>>> withstand the pressure of 18,000 cu ft of water? :) > > THAT would be a big heated vacuum press > But where will you get the whale? Ben. From isking at uw.edu Fri Sep 9 23:37:47 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 21:37:47 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <2e1ac965-d1e2-fd64-3f4b-9a53984e4724@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20637CEF-CBCB-4C8C-9A51-30F0C533B29A@shiresoft.com> <2e1ac965-d1e2-fd64-3f4b-9a53984e4724@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Thank ${deity} we still have those. On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 9:21 PM, ben wrote: > On 9/9/2016 7:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Fri, 9 Sep 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> >>> Actually it actually *does* exist and is reasonable to manufacture. >>> Here?s the >>> article: >>> http://www.nrl.navy.mil/media/news-releases/2015/transparent >>> -armor-from-nrl-spinel-could-also-ruggedize-your-smart-phone >>> >>> >>> It?s basically a sintered process where the ceramic is formed (this >>> particular one is called spinel) >>> and the process is to put the powder in a press, raise the temperature >>> and evacuate the air. >>> The result is a clear crystal that has better properties than glass. >>> The size of the piece is only >>> limited by the size of the press. >>> >> >> Ah yes, but can you make in sheets 60 feet by 10 feet by 1 inch >>>>> thick and >>>>> withstand the pressure of 18,000 cu ft of water? :) >>>>> >>>> >> THAT would be a big heated vacuum press >> >> But where will you get the whale? > Ben. > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 10 00:02:13 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 05:02:13 +0000 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: <040001d20ae4$a0892750$e19b75f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <040001d20ae4$a0892750$e19b75f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > I finally managed to pick up a logic analyser for a price I could justify. > It is a HP1630G and it comes with a number of pods. However the pods do not I have an HP1630 of some flavour and find it very useful. AFAIK it was the last series of logic analysers from HP to have proper service manuals... The difference between the various models (suffix letters) is which timing/state input boards are fitted. For the old computer people here, it's controlled by a 6809 of some flavour. There is a 6829 MMU chip in there as well, one of the few times you will see one of those. You want to download all the manuals from Keysight. There is a lot of useful information in them > seem to have the actual wires/probes. Is there a separate part number for > these that I should look for. There seem to be quite a few items like this: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291753390848, are these likely to be suitable > alternatives? I assume you have the pods themselves -- the little boxes on the ends of the input cables. The probes/wires that go into those are totally passive just bits of wire with grabber clips on the end. The connector that goes into the pod is an HP special housing, but that was just for convenience. There are normal pin connectors down the holes, and I suspect the Ebay listing you have given would fit. Be very careful if you take a pod apart, there is a delicate ceramic hybrid circuit inside. -tony From jason at smbfc.net Sat Sep 10 00:39:35 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 22:39:35 -0700 Subject: Components available - the rest of the story In-Reply-To: References: <016101d209f3$a2594cf0$e70be6d0$@computer.org> <284A3B41-4F7F-49CD-A49D-139125EEA114@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7cfc3683-28bf-dbab-9900-828b9828e440@smbfc.net> Have they thought about other museums, like the LCM up here in Seattle? I'd be happy to volunteer to go get it and bring it back North. --Jason On 09/09/2016 08:39 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> On Sep 9, 2016, at 00:59, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> I might be interested, as I already have two FFT systems that I am restoring (an HP 5420A and a HP 5451C). I am local. Just drop me an email. > > If Marc adopts it, he'll surely make some excellent Youtube videos about it! > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 01:17:25 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 23:17:25 -0700 Subject: Components available - the rest of the story In-Reply-To: References: <016101d209f3$a2594cf0$e70be6d0$@computer.org> <284A3B41-4F7F-49CD-A49D-139125EEA114@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015601d20b2b$00564a00$0102de00$@gmail.com> >> On Sep 9, 2016, at 00:59, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> I might be interested, as I already have two FFT systems that I am restoring >(an HP 5420A and a HP 5451C). I am local. Just drop me an email. > >If Marc adopts it, he'll surely make some excellent Youtube videos about it! >Mark J. Blair You bet :-) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 03:27:47 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 09:27:47 +0100 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: References: <040001d20ae4$a0892750$e19b75f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <044a01d20b3d$361a4e90$a24eebb0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: tony duell [mailto:ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Sent: 10 September 2016 06:02 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Logic Analyser Advice > > > I have an HP1630 of some flavour and find it very useful. AFAIK it was the last > series of logic analysers from HP to have proper service manuals... > > The difference between the various models (suffix letters) is which > timing/state input boards are fitted. > > For the old computer people here, it's controlled by a 6809 of some flavour. > There is a 6829 MMU chip in there as well, one of the few times you will see > one of those. > > You want to download all the manuals from Keysight. There is a lot of useful > information in them > I grabbed the manuals, thanks! The power switch is a bit sticky, so I need at least to try to fix that, so the service manual may help. > > seem to have the actual wires/probes. Is there a separate part number > > for these that I should look for. There seem to be quite a few items like > this: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291753390848, are these likely to be > > suitable alternatives? > > I assume you have the pods themselves -- the little boxes on the ends of the > input cables. Yes I do have the actual pods. They look like the picture in this listing (not the item I bought): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152233591570 So, yes I have the pods, but no connectors > The probes/wires that go into those are totally passive just bits > of wire with grabber clips on the end. The connector that goes into the pod is > an HP special housing, but that was just for convenience. > There are normal pin connectors down the holes, and I suspect the Ebay > listing you have given would fit. I will buy a set and see how it goes. I also believe there are some probes that are designed to clip over a whole IC, any recommendations for those? I did try using one once but it was designed to be used in conjunction with grabber clips and it was so fiddly that I gave up, so I am wondering if there is something better. Thanks Rob > > Be very careful if you take a pod apart, there is a delicate ceramic hybrid > circuit inside. > > -tony= From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 03:34:36 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 09:34:36 +0100 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: <20160910015404.CEE0218C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160910015404.CEE0218C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <044b01d20b3e$29e929b0$7dbb7d10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: 10 September 2016 02:54 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Logic Analyser Advice > > > From: Ian S. King > > > Do you have the grey rectangular bits that plug into the pods? If not, > > you're pretty much screwed > > Not necessarily. I bought a couple of Tek 1240's, without pods or probes, but > managed to locate a goodly supply of each on eBait. > > The key for me was to find the original Tek part number for the pods and > probes, and then search for that. The same might work for this HP thingy. > I have tried that, not found much so far (one item on the wrong side of the pond), but I will keep looking. Regards Rob From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Sep 10 05:25:12 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 12:25:12 +0200 Subject: VC8E Option In-Reply-To: References: <5CC744CD21A94D8683849C7239814345@Vincew7> <20160909045925.GS3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20160910102512.GT3629@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Sep 09, 2016 at 03:14:41PM -0500, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:59 PM, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > > > > Hmm, yes, I think I might actually. What do you have so far? > > > > I don't have much yet, unfortunately; still trying to get my thoughts > together on how it should be implemented. Mark Pizzolato recommends using > as much existing display code as possible. I did start an issue for it > here, though: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/337 > > Kyle I found Phils code when I looked into this yesterday. There also the VR12 emulation in the, now dormant, GreenPea[1] project. I was wondering which graphics library to use but since both simh and GreenPea uses SDL I guess that settle that. I found and read Dougs[2] VC8E summary. Do you have any other docs? A cursory look on bitsavers didn't give any result. /P [1] https://github.com/andysan/greenpea/ [2] http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/vc8e.html From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Sep 10 09:13:01 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 10:13:01 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! Message-ID: <2384d1.4c3b5637.45056eed@aol.com> you mean when he picks up the mouse and says.... hello computer into it? yea I fell outta my seat! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 9/8/2016 10:31:59 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cliendo at gmail.com writes: The only "computer" related thing I can think of is the scene from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, where Scotty works on the Macintosh trying to show transparent aluminum. In my own humble opinion it is one of the best scenes ever from a Star Trek movie or show. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Sep 10 09:14:16 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 10:14:16 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! Message-ID: <238512.387d8418.45056f38@aol.com> yep! In a message dated 9/8/2016 10:46:36 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, pete at pski.net writes: > On Sep 8, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > > The only "computer" related thing I can think of is the scene from > Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, where Scotty works on the Macintosh > trying to show transparent aluminum. > > In my own humble opinion it is one of the best scenes ever from a Star > Trek movie or show. ?Hello, computer!?= From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Sep 10 09:31:37 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 10:31:37 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! Message-ID: <23887b.a9b9fbf.45057349@aol.com> You bet it does! My friend Jim Early explained to me how it was used on the Bell Solar Batteries ( solar cells) for TELSTAR Ed Sharpe PDP-8 SN18 In a message dated 9/9/2016 7:55:19 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com writes: On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 8 Sep 2016, Murray McCullough wrote: > And use so much transparent aluminum. > Transparent aluminum exists. It is called sapphire. Sapphire is the crystalline form of aluminum oxide. If you recall, Apple was thinking of using it for the touch screen face of the iphone. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 10 10:16:43 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 08:16:43 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. of Star Trek! In-Reply-To: <23887b.a9b9fbf.45057349@aol.com> References: <23887b.a9b9fbf.45057349@aol.com> Message-ID: <0c943a36-22f1-c40a-c629-9f1dcf805713@sydex.com> On 09/10/2016 07:31 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > Transparent aluminum exists. It is called sapphire. Sapphire is > the crystalline form of aluminum oxide. If you recall, Apple was > thinking of using it for the touch screen face of the iphone. Pardon my pickiness, but sapphire isn't aluminum, any more than ruby or corundum is. One might was well refer to it as "oxygen". Sappire is a combination of oxygen and aluminum. In fact, there's more oxygen than aluminum in sapphire. Very thin (micron-thick) layers of metallic aluminum can be transparent, but that's true of many metals. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Sep 10 11:30:16 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 11:30:16 -0500 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: <044b01d20b3e$29e929b0$7dbb7d10$@ntlworld.com> References: <20160910015404.CEE0218C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <044b01d20b3e$29e929b0$7dbb7d10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <57D43518.1080200@pico-systems.com> On 09/10/2016 03:34 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: I went the Tek route. I had a 1240 for a long time, and then upgraded to a 9200 with 3 92A96 acq cards. Quite a beast, with 288 channels at 10 ns. They have transmission line cables to the pods, but the pods are passive, I think a parallel 82K resistor and a 1000 pF cap or something. I made a VME analyzer card that has about 80 channels wired up with those parts so the TLCs just plug into the card. We have a DAS 520 at work, which is basically a 9200. The 9200/TLA500-700 series are not stand-alone analyzers like the old HP and Tek 1240 series. You can use an X-windows terminal, or connect to it with any Xserver. You do have to download fonts and make some adjustments to the setup file in the analyzer to make this work, however. The analyzer mainframe runs a version of Unix. Jon From radiotest at juno.com Sat Sep 10 11:55:42 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 12:55:42 -0400 Subject: Identify HP Pods Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160910125523.03f93a80@plymouthcolony.net> While going through some bags of probes that I recently acquired I found two of these HP pods that do not bear HP model numbers, just the company name and logo: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ONAAAOSwBahVJjOo/$_57.JPG as well as the clips used with them: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/7aEAAOSwENxXlk5E/s-l1600.jpg They appear to be pods for an HP logic analyzer, but they are not the HP 16xx series analyzer pods with which I am familiar. Can anyone identify them? Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 12:10:34 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 10:10:34 -0700 Subject: Identify HP Pods In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160910125523.03f93a80@plymouthcolony.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160910125523.03f93a80@plymouthcolony.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > While going through some bags of probes that I recently acquired I found two of these HP pods that do not bear HP model numbers, just the company name and logo: > > http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ONAAAOSwBahVJjOo/$_57.JPG > > as well as the clips used with them: > > http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/7aEAAOSwENxXlk5E/s-l1600.jpg > > They appear to be pods for an HP logic analyzer, but they are not the HP 16xx series analyzer pods with which I am familiar. Can anyone identify them? > Those are the leads that go with the HP163x series logic analyzer pods such as the HP 1630G that Rob Jarratt was just asking about here. They were also used with the HP 54201D scope for the digital trigger pods. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Sep 10 12:19:58 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 10:19:58 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Weirdness Message-ID: <02e401d20b87$8f9ac0e0$aed042a0$@bettercomputing.net> Okay, I have it all dialed in now! With that iffy memory board swapped out, the system works beautifully. I did have some trouble loading Altair BASIC but after looking at a video of someone running it I discovered an extra line that appeared to be in the Altair patch file and also a couple of memory addresses that were altered. Once I did that, the prompts came up and it let me enter a program! The only problem was for some reason Hyperterminal was cutting off a column or two - so instead of the OK prompt I had O. I figured that was probably just Hyperterminal, so I switched the system back to 110 baud, loaded Altair BASIC, and then switched to the CT-1024. It worked perfectly! Pretty magical being able to use this software I've only seen demonstrated in videos on vintage hardware! Can't wait for the day I have a real Altair and teletype. I'm going to hunt around for more S19 files. I'd also like to learn more about how to program this thing (I assume in assembly). And then another thing on my wish list would be to have both the MP-S and MP-C cards working together in a way that I could use one to load and save stuff off to my PC terminal and the other for actual terminal interface. Thanks again for the help and suggestions!! Brad From t.gardner at computer.org Sat Sep 10 13:24:48 2016 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 11:24:48 -0700 Subject: Components available - the rest of the story In-Reply-To: <7cfc3683-28bf-dbab-9900-828b9828e440@smbfc.net> References: <016101d209f3$a2594cf0$e70be6d0$@computer.org> <284A3B41-4F7F-49CD-A49D-139125EEA114@gmail.com> <7cfc3683-28bf-dbab-9900-828b9828e440@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <018401d20b90$9dd19540$d974bfc0$@computer.org> Hi Jason: Yes the LCM has asked for it. If the CHM says no, we need to work out details of the transfer and may take u up on your offer to help in transport. Note it is a 6-foot rack with about 5 file drawers of documents Regards, Tom -----Original Message----- From: Jason Howe [mailto:jason at smbfc.net] Sent: Friday, September 09, 2016 10:40 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Components available - the rest of the story Have they thought about other museums, like the LCM up here in Seattle? I'd be happy to volunteer to go get it and bring it back North. --Jason On 09/09/2016 08:39 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> On Sep 9, 2016, at 00:59, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> I might be interested, as I already have two FFT systems that I am restoring (an HP 5420A and a HP 5451C). I am local. Just drop me an email. > > If Marc adopts it, he'll surely make some excellent Youtube videos about it! > > From radiotest at juno.com Sat Sep 10 13:26:53 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 14:26:53 -0400 Subject: Identify HP Pods In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160910125523.03f93a80@plymouthcolony.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160910142153.03fa05d8@juno.com> At 01:10 PM 9/10/2016, Glen Slick wrote: >Those are the leads that go with the HP163x series logic analyzer pods such as the HP 1630G that Rob Jarratt was just asking about here. Aaah - that is why I did not recognize them - I had seen only the 165x/166x leads. Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Sep 10 13:27:57 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 11:27:57 -0700 Subject: Components available - the rest of the story Message-ID: I thought chm had woosed.. out on it already?.. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Tom Gardner Date: 9/10/16 11:24 (GMT-07:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Components available - the rest of the story Hi Jason: Yes the LCM has asked for it. If the CHM says no, we need to work out details of the transfer and may take u up on your offer to help in transport.? Note it is a 6-foot rack with about 5 file drawers of documents Regards, Tom -----Original Message----- From: Jason Howe [mailto:jason at smbfc.net] Sent: Friday, September 09, 2016 10:40 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Components available - the rest of the story Have they thought about other museums, like the LCM up here in Seattle?? I'd be happy to volunteer to go get it and bring it back North. --Jason On 09/09/2016 08:39 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> On Sep 9, 2016, at 00:59, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> I might be interested, as I already have two FFT systems that I am restoring (an HP 5420A and a HP 5451C). I am local. Just drop me an email. > > If Marc adopts it, he'll surely make some excellent Youtube videos about it! > > From isking at uw.edu Sat Sep 10 14:23:05 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 12:23:05 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: <044a01d20b3d$361a4e90$a24eebb0$@ntlworld.com> References: <040001d20ae4$a0892750$e19b75f0$@ntlworld.com> <044a01d20b3d$361a4e90$a24eebb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 1:27 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > I will buy a set and see how it goes. I also believe there are some probes > that are designed to clip over a whole IC, any recommendations for those? I > did try using one once but it was designed to be used in conjunction with > grabber clips and it was so fiddly that I gave up, so I am wondering if > there is something better. > > Thanks > > Rob DIP clips? They can be found, but since DIPs are mostly considered obsolete they are pretty pricey these days. Watch on ePay - I picked up a raft of them from some company closing its service department (cheaper just to throw things away). The grey plugs that fit into the end of the pods have a connector that fits over an individual pin - they work great on wire-wrap pins! - and those can be attached to the DIP clip before you clamp the clip on the IC. There have been a couple of times I've had every single pod in play, each connected to one or even two DIP clips. -- Ian > > > > > Be very careful if you take a pod apart, there is a delicate ceramic > hybrid > > circuit inside. > > > > -tony= > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Sep 10 14:24:54 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 12:24:54 -0700 Subject: Finding developer docs for VME hardware? Message-ID: Anyone have any suggestions for how to go about finding developer documentation for VME hardware? I haven?t been having much luck with Google searches. Given that (aside from its use by workstation manufacturers) most VME hardware was intended for composing systems from disparate parts, I assume that most of it at one time had programming documentation available. After all, you can?t just provide binary drivers when you know neither what CPU nor what OS your customers will be running?or even if they?ll be running an OS, versus some tightly-coded assembly. My current interest is in using something like a D/A board or a specific audio interface[1] to provide audio for a VME-based workstation that lacks it, but I figure being able to find information like this will be generally useful to those of us with VME hardware. -- Chris [1] Something like a Vigra MMI-210: >, about $125 on eBay. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 14:41:57 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 12:41:57 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: References: <040001d20ae4$a0892750$e19b75f0$@ntlworld.com> <044a01d20b3d$361a4e90$a24eebb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 1:27 AM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > >> I will buy a set and see how it goes. I also believe there are some probes >> that are designed to clip over a whole IC, any recommendations for those? I >> did try using one once but it was designed to be used in conjunction with >> grabber clips and it was so fiddly that I gave up, so I am wondering if >> there is something better. >> >> Thanks >> >> Rob > > > DIP clips? They can be found, but since DIPs are mostly considered > obsolete they are pretty pricey these days. Watch on ePay - I picked up a > raft of them from some company closing its service department (cheaper just > to throw things away). The grey plugs that fit into the end of the pods > have a connector that fits over an individual pin - they work great on > wire-wrap pins! - and those can be attached to the DIP clip before you > clamp the clip on the IC. There have been a couple of times I've had every > single pod in play, each connected to one or even two DIP clips. -- Ian > 3M / A P Products have a couple of versions of DIP test clips - the headless version and the nailhead version. For logic analyzer use you generally would want to use the headless version. The logic analyzer flying lead ends should slip directly on top of the DIP test clip pins. The nailhead version as the name implies look somewhat like the head of a nail on top of the DIP test clip pins. That is to stop a clip from slipping off the top of the pins, but it is a real pain to have to try to fit clips on all of the pins in the space available and make sure none of them pop off. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 15:51:13 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 13:51:13 -0700 Subject: Identify HP Pods In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160910142153.03fa05d8@juno.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160910125523.03f93a80@plymouthcolony.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20160910142153.03fa05d8@juno.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 01:10 PM 9/10/2016, Glen Slick wrote: > >>Those are the leads that go with the HP163x series logic analyzer pods > > Aaah - that is why I did not recognize them - I had seen only the 165x/166x leads. > Sorry, I was wrong. I saw replies on the hp_agilent_equipment list saying they were for the HP-1600 / HP-1607 / HP-1610 / HP-1615 logic analyzer series and that is probably the correct answer, not the HP-163x series. In the picture you referenced in your original post the flying lead set has protruding male pins which mate with the pod, while the HP-163x series flying lead set I just dug out to look at has female pins recessed in the plastic clip which mates with the pod. From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Sep 10 16:28:50 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 16:28:50 -0500 Subject: Finding developer docs for VME hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160910212849.GA22229@lonesome.com> You just had to go by each manufacturer's documentation. I can say this with some authority, as I wrote some of said documentation during my several years at Mizar :-) There is the spec, of course, but that only tells you what each board must implement so it can talk to the others across the backplane. Many VMEbus installations may not have even run an OS, just an event loop. If you ran pDOS or OS/9 or vxWorks (my own specialty at the time), you had to either get a driver from the manufacturer or write your own. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. mcl From js at cimmeri.com Sat Sep 10 18:12:28 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 18:12:28 -0500 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: <044b01d20b3e$29e929b0$7dbb7d10$@ntlworld.com> References: <20160910015404.CEE0218C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <044b01d20b3e$29e929b0$7dbb7d10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <57D4935C.5080600@cimmeri.com> On 9/10/2016 3:34 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa >> Sent: 10 September 2016 02:54 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu >> Subject: Re: Logic Analyser Advice >> >> >> The key for me was to find the original Tek part number for the pods and >> probes, and then search for that. The same might work for this HP thingy. >> > > I have tried that, not found much so far (one item on the wrong side of the pond), but I will keep looking. > > Regards > Rob I have a bunch of what you're looking for my 1630G pods, but in looking at them, I'm not seeing any part #'s of any kind stamped directly on them... which is likely going to make them a bit harder to find. - J. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 21:46:11 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 19:46:11 -0700 Subject: FW: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <62098BE0-1EC4-490C-94CE-DB5DC078C4B3@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <62098BE0-1EC4-490C-94CE-DB5DC078C4B3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> Video of session 6 is up: https://youtu.be/b7yVhMT7tr4 Found our first bad IC. Probably not our last one. On 9/3/16 11:08 PM, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: Episode 5, still does not boot, but we are starting to follow long why: https://youtu.be/Wr7vDZpniNIr Marc On Jul 31, 2016, at 6:12 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: Next Episode: https://youtu.be/EDw8U1a6s78 http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_31.html Marc From: Curious Marc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 2:01 AM To: Curious Marc; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines Ken's in-depth blog post to go with the previous video http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_11.html On Jul 5, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Curious Marc wrote: Video from yesterday?s work on the Diablo cartridge disc: https://youtu.be/PR5LkQugBE0 Should be up in a few minutes. We were tickled pink to have official representation from PARC (former Xerox Parc) at the session. Marc Ken?s new post on the monitor repair to go with my previous video. http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html Al Kossow got us a new CRT tube, so we are probably going to try that this week-end. Marc Latest entry from Ken Shirriff, trying out BCPL (ancestor of C). On the emulator, not yet on the real machine: http://www.righto.com/2016/06/hello-world-in-bcpl-language-on-xerox.html Marc There are only two entries right now: http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html Marc From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Sep 10 22:09:04 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 20:09:04 -0700 Subject: bitsavers FP11-B schem: M8115-0-01 sheets 1 and 2 missing? Message-ID: Hi all, I?m working on debugging an FP11-B floating point option in a PDP-11/45. I?ve just discovered that in the engineering drawings for this on bitsavers, sheets 1 and 2 of the FRL board prints are missing :-( Does anybody have a complete set of FP11-B drawings? I can work around the missing sheets if I have to because sheet 1 is just the IC layout sheet and sheet 2 is probably quite similar to sheet 3, but it sure would be convenient to have the whole set? cheers, ?-FritzM. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 22:31:22 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 22:31:22 -0500 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've got the model for the Phillips p1000 love to get more stuff to go with it. Got the paper cut out scan someone sent me a while back. Came across this doing my once every few months search https://aconit.inria.fr/omeka/items/show/595 http://amitrtlu.free.fr/guirimand/G3d.htm What other obscure European Machean are out there? All seems we see is HP and Dec mostly talked about yet we forget about allot of others and the thread about that random lot of military grade Machean the chm called junk trash didn't want got me thinking From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 22:42:33 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 20:42:33 -0700 Subject: Components available - the rest of the story In-Reply-To: <016101d209f3$a2594cf0$e70be6d0$@computer.org> References: <016101d209f3$a2594cf0$e70be6d0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <8AC4B06C-77FC-41D2-8BDC-509241C8626F@gmail.com> Forgot to say, I am also interested in old components (particularly old ICs, TTL and CuTL). I'm local, can pick up. Marc Sent from my iPad > On Sep 8, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: > > The rest of the story. > > As Al pointed out, much to our surprise, the museum has rejected an offer > from Art's estate for the donation of a Fast Fourier Transform computing > system which included both the Unicomp Computer and a hardware FFT > accelerator. This is a very strange decision since the system is one of the > earliest if not the first implementation of a FFT in anti-submarine and > anti-aircraft warfare. FFT mathematics dates to 1965 but processor until > much later had the power to do it real time in software at the resolution > necessary, so Art invented the hardware accelerator and multiple units were > sold to the Navy. The estate is appealing the museum's decision. > > The estate would like to keep the FFT system together and so if the museum > continues with a cranial rectal inversion it will look to other alternatives > including those of u who have already > > I will respond by email not later than tomorrow to the several list members > who expressed interest in the components and/or the computer. I'm busy > today helping set up the Atari retrospective for the IEEE Silicon Valley > History Committee. > > Regards, > > Tom > > Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:16:23 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Components available > > >> On 9/6/16 4:18 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >> >> A friend of mine died recently; he was amongst many things an >> electronics tinkerer and has a closet full of small parts in bin >> cabinets (resistors, capacitors, ICs, transistors, hardware, etc.). > > > There is also a Unicomp 18 bit minicomputer, paper tape reader, and FFT > processor circa 1972 in the garage (6ft rack) with full documentation. > > I walked out of the donations meeting with the other curators today who > thought it was a piece of s**t and didn't want to take it, calling it a > 'dumpster fire' > > Art was a friend of mine. > > Hopefully it can go someplace where it can be appreciated. > Talk to Tom about it, unfortunately, time is short. > > > > > -- > 73 AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 10 23:44:10 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 21:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Clan MacHeans ne'er got involved with such. Perhaps you mean the MacHines? From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Sep 11 00:33:11 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 22:33:11 -0700 Subject: Finding developer docs for VME hardware? In-Reply-To: <20160910212849.GA22229@lonesome.com> References: <20160910212849.GA22229@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <8C535AD4-7CBF-4DF2-AE43-94C74016EEBC@eschatologist.net> No worries, I expected that I'd need to find the manufacturers docs. I was hoping though that someone would have a repository or something, like Bitsavers... -- Chris Sent from my iPad > On Sep 10, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > > You just had to go by each manufacturer's documentation. I can say > this with some authority, as I wrote some of said documentation during > my several years at Mizar :-) > > There is the spec, of course, but that only tells you what each board > must implement so it can talk to the others across the backplane. > > Many VMEbus installations may not have even run an OS, just an event loop. > If you ran pDOS or OS/9 or vxWorks (my own specialty at the time), you > had to either get a driver from the manufacturer or write your own. > > Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. > > mcl From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Sep 11 00:56:08 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 07:56:08 +0200 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160911055608.GC27451@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 10:31:22PM -0500, Adrian Stoness wrote: > I've got the model for the Phillips p1000 love to get more stuff to go with > it. Got the paper cut out scan someone sent me a while back. > > Came across this doing my once every few months search > > https://aconit.inria.fr/omeka/items/show/595 > > http://amitrtlu.free.fr/guirimand/G3d.htm > > What other obscure European Machean are out there? There are of course Norsk Data that made minis and micros (rumor has it North Korea still runs ND). In Sweden we had Datasaab which made minis and mainframes. I have a rare micro, the Datasaab D16 which is really a Facit which is really an Addo. Swedish NTI made an 8085 SBC kit for education called Mickey. Finish Telercas made an 1802 based home computer called Telmac. (There are several swidih micros as well due to NIH syndrome) Even the danish made minis. Facit made a very nice mini called DS9000 but only nine or so machines were made for the military. It was a custom order, if they had gone commercial I think it could have given the PDP-8 a run for its money, at least locally. There was a french mini I'd like to mention but I don't recall de name. Feel free to ask me for more details. Most of the above is fairly easily googlable. /P From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 01:46:48 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 08:46:48 +0200 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: <20160911055608.GC27451@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160911055608.GC27451@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > > > > What other obscure European Machean are out there? > > There are of course Norsk Data that made minis and micros (rumor has it > North Korea still runs ND). In Sweden we had Datasaab which made minis and > mainframes. I have a rare micro, the Datasaab D16 which is really a Facit > which is really an Addo Datasaab D16 was actually a rebranded Computer Automation Mini. You are thinking about the D12. While mentioning Datasaab I'd like mention the D5 series which were small 16 bit TTL machines used for example by banks as a terminal concentrator. Sparbankerna in Sweden used them in all branches. Then there is the D21 and D22 mainframes which competed well against IBM in the sixties in the nordic market. Unfortunatley the follow up D23 took very long to complete and was not a success. Datasaab was merged with Univac. /Mattis > > From anders at abc80.net Sat Sep 10 15:02:41 2016 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 22:02:41 +0200 Subject: VC8E Option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81a1b399-6275-f422-5cf3-da6ebc011834@abc80.net> > >On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:59 PM, Pontus Pihlgren >> >wrote: >>> > > >>> > >Hmm, yes, I think I might actually. What do you have so far? >>> > > >> > >> >I don't have much yet, unfortunately; still trying to get my thoughts >> >together on how it should be implemented. Mark Pizzolato recommends using >> >as much existing display code as possible. I did start an issue for it >> >here, though:https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/337 >> > >> >Kyle > I found Phils code when I looked into this yesterday. There also the VR12 > emulation in the, now dormant, GreenPea[1] project. I was wondering which > graphics library to use but since both simh and GreenPea uses SDL I guess > that settle that. > > I found and read Dougs[2] VC8E summary. Do you have any other docs? A > cursory look on bitsavers didn't give any result. > > /P > > [1]https://github.com/andysan/greenpea/ > [2]http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/vc8e.html > There is at least schematics on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp8/omnibus/VC8-E_engineering_drawing.pdf I encourage you to do this, I have a working VC8E if you what me to try anything. /Anders From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 02:27:43 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 02:27:43 -0500 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Phillips in Europe was not part of Phillips in the us was it's own company from what I've been able to find out the model I have is from around 1968 post a link to a pic when I'm not on my phone On Sep 10, 2016 11:44 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > Clan MacHeans ne'er got involved with such. > > Perhaps you mean the MacHines? > > > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Sep 11 04:28:03 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 10:28:03 +0100 Subject: Using a modern USB joystick on a vintage computer (Atari compatible) Message-ID: I've seen plenty of examples of adapters to use a vintage joystick with a modern computer. I'd like the opposite - to use a USB controller with a vintage computer (Atari compatible - for example ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64). Does anyone know of an adapter or a homebrew project? Thanks, Mark. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 11 08:49:32 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 13:49:32 +0000 Subject: Using a modern USB joystick on a vintage computer (Atari compatible) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can get a USB master shield for the Arduino cheaply enough. You can then use the Arduino's PWM output and analog input to translate joystick to DC voltage. One would need to put a lowpass filter on the PWM output. Another option would be to use a multiplying D/A instead for the output. I don't recall the output frequency of the PWM but the response time of the filter might limit the use of PWM for translating joystick operation. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Mark Wickens Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 2:28:03 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Using a modern USB joystick on a vintage computer (Atari compatible) I've seen plenty of examples of adapters to use a vintage joystick with a modern computer. I'd like the opposite - to use a USB controller with a vintage computer (Atari compatible - for example ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64). Does anyone know of an adapter or a homebrew project? Thanks, Mark. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 09:16:43 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 16:16:43 +0200 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... Message-ID: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=30456459#p30456459 Found via: http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/09/an-os-9-odyssey-why-do-some-mac-users-still-rely-on-16-year-old-software/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 04:03:29 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 11:03:29 +0200 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Op 11 sep. 2016 9:27 a.m. schreef "Adrian Stoness" : > > Phillips in Europe was not part of Phillips in the us was it's own company > from what I've been able to find out the model I have is from around 1968 > post a link to a pic when I'm not on my phone Philips (with a single L) is a Dutch company. They made a whole range of computers at various times: home computers (P2000 and MSX), IBM PC compatibles, an IBM PC/MSX hybrid (the :YES, notoriously incompatible with either architecture), minicomputers (I have several members of the P800 series) and mainframes (P1000) Camiel From djg at pdp8online.com Sun Sep 11 09:51:21 2016 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 10:51:21 -0400 Subject: Next order of MFM emulator/reader baords Message-ID: <20160911145121.GA12789@hugin2.pdp8online.com> I will be ordering another batch of boards. If you wish to order more boards email me djg at pdp8online.com with how many and if bare, with surface mount chips, or fully assembled. If you currently are on the waiting list you don't need to reply. Info is here. http://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/ The price may be $5 more since it looks like the quantity will be less than last time. Bare boards should ship by end of month. I haven't found a place at these quantities to have them assembled for less than listed price so have been doing them myself. Assembled boards may be a couple more weeks. I will collect payment when getting ready to start shipping. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Sep 11 10:23:00 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 11:23:00 -0400 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <196A542E-CE5D-4566-B076-E6C383982CFA@comcast.net> > On Sep 11, 2016, at 5:03 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > > Op 11 sep. 2016 9:27 a.m. schreef "Adrian Stoness" : >> >> Phillips in Europe was not part of Phillips in the us was it's own company >> from what I've been able to find out the model I have is from around 1968 >> post a link to a pic when I'm not on my phone > > Philips (with a single L) is a Dutch company. They made a whole range of > computers at various times: home computers (P2000 and MSX), IBM PC > compatibles, an IBM PC/MSX hybrid (the :YES, notoriously incompatible with > either architecture), minicomputers (I have several members of the P800 > series) and mainframes (P1000) Philips was founded around the end of the 19th century as a maker of light bulbs, got into vacuum tubes in the 1920s or so. They bought Dutch computer pioneer Electrologica in 1965 but didn't do much with it. They also built various other computers. I worked on an obscure one, the PR8000, a 24 bit minicomputer from Philips France (complete with French assembler mnemonics). paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Sep 11 10:25:30 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 11:25:30 -0400 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1A92C3EC-613B-45C7-BBA7-65D6E09F3F8E@comcast.net> > On Sep 10, 2016, at 11:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > ... > What other obscure European Machean are out there? Siemens made minicomputers. I ran into one at the TU Eindhoven (ME department) where it controlled a precision plotter. 16 bit machine, with hex digits 0-9 and B-G. That machine was used to draw neat graphics used on Dutch stamps (and maybe also paper money?) of that era. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Sep 11 11:08:42 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 10:08:42 -0600 Subject: Finding developer docs for VME hardware? In-Reply-To: <8C535AD4-7CBF-4DF2-AE43-94C74016EEBC@eschatologist.net> References: <20160910212849.GA22229@lonesome.com> <8C535AD4-7CBF-4DF2-AE43-94C74016EEBC@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: Most of the VME gear pre-dates folks putting it online on their web sites. This means that what exists is on paper and since there was never the fanatical devotion to preservation like the pdp-11 gear in that community, most of it is gone to the landfill. Plus DEC's documentation is way better than any of the docs of the boards I've ever looked at.... Warner On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > No worries, I expected that I'd need to find the manufacturers docs. I was hoping though that someone would have a repository or something, like Bitsavers... > > -- Chris > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Sep 10, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: >> >> You just had to go by each manufacturer's documentation. I can say >> this with some authority, as I wrote some of said documentation during >> my several years at Mizar :-) >> >> There is the spec, of course, but that only tells you what each board >> must implement so it can talk to the others across the backplane. >> >> Many VMEbus installations may not have even run an OS, just an event loop. >> If you ran pDOS or OS/9 or vxWorks (my own specialty at the time), you >> had to either get a driver from the manufacturer or write your own. >> >> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. >> >> mcl From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sun Sep 11 11:52:00 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 09:52:00 -0700 Subject: SWTPC GT-6144 Message-ID: I am finally getting around to getting this GT-6144 graphics board working. ?It seems pretty straightforward, however I am confused by the advice given re:use with the CT1024 vs 6800. ?The instructions describe using it with either or, I think. ?I'm wondering what the right way to hook up would be if you are using both together. ?I'm thinking it must be CT1024 in that case, otherwise you'd need two monitors? ?I just want to be able to program the GT-6144 from the 6800 while using the CT1024. Anyone familiar enough with these to offer advice? Thanks in advance!! Brad From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Sep 11 12:25:22 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 13:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? Message-ID: <20160911172522.9EB9618C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Adrian Stoness > All seems we see is HP and Dec mostly talked about Well, don't forget that i) a lot of people (like me) are interested in things they worked with 'back in the day', and for many people, that is very likely to be DEC and HP machines, since they were very common, ii) the conversation is partially driven by what's available now, and again, because they were so common BITD, there are more of them now, and finally iii) the list has a lot of US-based members, and they wouldn't have run across (either back then, or now) machines from the somewhat obscure European manufacturers. I don't think anyone looks down on the more obscure machines, in fact I personally (and many others, I suspect) are very happy to see people paying attention to them, and my respects to the people who are working to save them. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Sep 11 13:09:43 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 14:09:43 -0400 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: <20160911172522.9EB9618C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160911172522.9EB9618C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Sep 11, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > ... > I don't think anyone looks down on the more obscure machines, in fact I > personally (and many others, I suspect) are very happy to see people paying > attention to them, and my respects to the people who are working to save them. One of the problems with "obscure European machinery" is that documentation is not available. No Siemens computers, for example. And the only trace I have found of the Philips PR8000 is a one line mention in a list of computers, just enough to confirm that's the machine I once used whose model number I had forgotten. It's not clear why this is so. Fewer collectors? Not much commercial success for some or many of those machines? paul From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 11 13:25:55 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 11:25:55 -0700 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: <20160911172522.9EB9618C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <320797c1-3c2c-ff1a-f4bc-60aedf1786bb@sydex.com> On 09/11/2016 11:09 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > It's not clear why this is so. Fewer collectors? Not much > commercial success for some or many of those machines? I think the biggest problem is that most of the systems were deployed in larger commercial or government enterprises and so off the radar for most people. I ran into Siemens mostly in the PLC area. Not much of a chance for that to be accessible to an ordinary person. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 11 13:39:36 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 11:39:36 -0700 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: <196A542E-CE5D-4566-B076-E6C383982CFA@comcast.net> References: <196A542E-CE5D-4566-B076-E6C383982CFA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <839f6a56-47a1-7e47-1236-454558d11ef5@sydex.com> On 09/11/2016 08:23 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Philips was founded around the end of the 19th century as a maker of > light bulbs, got into vacuum tubes in the 1920s or so. Philips was into everything. For simple appliances, most in North America were completely unaware of the parent company, because personal care products are marketed under the "Norelco" brand. I believe that Philips acquired Sylvania, then sold it to Funai. In 2000, Philips was the largest manufacturer of semiconductors, having acquired both Signetics and VLSI Technology. later spun off as NXP to a private investment consortium. If you own a Sonicare electric toothbrush, that's Philips too. It's pretty safe to say that almost everyone has a Philips product somewhere in their life--it may not be branded with the Philips name however. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 13:45:28 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 13:45:28 -0500 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: so some actual macheans survived? love to see photos you've prolly seen the model? https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8302/7944707284_f8f4fa6ab8_b.jpg From fast79ta at yahoo.com Sun Sep 11 13:48:45 2016 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe Piche) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 12:48:45 -0600 Subject: FW: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <62098BE0-1EC4-490C-94CE-DB5DC078C4B3@gmail.com> <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e7b15dc-8c51-8502-68d4-3d04528c8a57@yahoo.com> On 9/10/2016 8:46 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: > Video of session 6 is up: > > https://youtu.be/b7yVhMT7tr4 > > Found our first bad IC. Probably not our last one. > > > > > > On 9/3/16 11:08 PM, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: > > Episode 5, still does not boot, but we are starting to follow long why: > https://youtu.be/Wr7vDZpniNIr > > Marc > > > > On Jul 31, 2016, at 6:12 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: > > Next Episode: > https://youtu.be/EDw8U1a6s78 > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_31.html > Marc > > From: Curious Marc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 2:01 AM > To: Curious Marc; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines > > Ken's in-depth blog post to go with the previous video > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_11.html > > On Jul 5, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > > Video from yesterday?s work on the Diablo cartridge disc: > https://youtu.be/PR5LkQugBE0 > Should be up in a few minutes. > We were tickled pink to have official representation from PARC (former Xerox Parc) at the session. > Marc > > Ken?s new post on the monitor repair to go with my previous video. > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html > Al Kossow got us a new CRT tube, so we are probably going to try that this week-end. > Marc > > > Latest entry from Ken Shirriff, trying out BCPL (ancestor of C). On the emulator, not yet on the real machine: > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/hello-world-in-bcpl-language-on-xerox.html > > Marc > > There are only two entries right now: > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html > Marc > Amazing work. I look forward to every new episode! From george.rachor at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 13:10:16 2016 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 11:10:16 -0700 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2DA44972-0EA3-4185-9F0C-A1BC1B9CADC4@gmail.com> I just retired my G4 cube (still working). Replaced it with a NOT NEW iMac. George Rachor george at rachors.com > On Sep 11, 2016, at 7:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=30456459#p30456459 > > Found via: > > http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/09/an-os-9-odyssey-why-do-some-mac-users-still-rely-on-16-year-old-software/ > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 13:53:32 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 13:53:32 -0500 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: <20160911172522.9EB9618C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160911172522.9EB9618C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: i relize that ive got a pile of dec myself but nice to get other stuff on radar to look out for. siemens went around buying out companies and dismantling them in the industrial world allot and still does kinda a piss of as some really good products have been tossed to the curb by them over the yrs my dads an insturmentation technoligist. so seen all sorts things. On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Adrian Stoness > > > All seems we see is HP and Dec mostly talked about > > Well, don't forget that i) a lot of people (like me) are interested in > things > they worked with 'back in the day', and for many people, that is very > likely > to be DEC and HP machines, since they were very common, ii) the > conversation > is partially driven by what's available now, and again, because they were > so > common BITD, there are more of them now, and finally iii) the list has a > lot > of US-based members, and they wouldn't have run across (either back then, > or > now) machines from the somewhat obscure European manufacturers. > > I don't think anyone looks down on the more obscure machines, in fact I > personally (and many others, I suspect) are very happy to see people paying > attention to them, and my respects to the people who are working to save > them. > > Noel > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 11 14:03:28 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 12:03:28 -0700 Subject: Finding developer docs for VME hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <20160910212849.GA22229@lonesome.com> <8C535AD4-7CBF-4DF2-AE43-94C74016EEBC@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <44bc6b38-14da-5ee2-55b7-e86d6c3ca375@bitsavers.org> On 9/11/16 9:08 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > Most of the VME gear pre-dates folks putting it online on their web > sites. This means that what exists is on paper and since there was > never the fanatical devotion to preservation like the pdp-11 gear in > that community, most of it is gone to the landfill. I started actively looking for VME documenation a many years ago. At that time mostly for Sun-related VME boards. Like you say, much is already unobtanium. There are some manuals up under various manufacturers on bitsavers. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Sep 11 15:09:18 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 22:09:18 +0200 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: <20160911055608.GC27451@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20160911200917.GD27451@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 08:46:48AM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > Datasaab D16 was actually a rebranded Computer Automation Mini. You are > thinking about the D12. You are right. Based on the 4004. /P From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Sep 11 15:15:55 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 16:15:55 -0400 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? Message-ID: <13f2bc.1f200387.4507157b@aol.com> SMECC is looking for any Philips Broadcast year new or old sorta like http://www.smecc.org/ldk20/philliconnector1.jpg which is one of our ldk-20 cameras... they can say on the side Philips, or later Thomson or BTS Philips was a great developer and implementer of CCD Technology in video cameras. this studio camera has computers in it for the control unit and you can store setups etc on Flash memory cards I keep one at the house to learn to program up the MCU controller etc for the one at the museum. So anything Philips, or later Thomson or BTS hardware, software, cables, adv. materials, training books is indeed welcome here and if you have a lighted script holder we need one for the unit at the museum.... it looks like this... http://www.smecc.org/ldk20/philli57.jpg People ask on our duplicate stuff what would we trade for? here is a non computer area that works well to get some of our extras. Have a great weekend Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 9/11/2016 11:40:13 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cclist at sydex.com writes: On 09/11/2016 08:23 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Philips was founded around the end of the 19th century as a maker of > light bulbs, got into vacuum tubes in the 1920s or so. Philips was into everything. For simple appliances, most in North America were completely unaware of the parent company, because personal care products are marketed under the "Norelco" brand. I believe that Philips acquired Sylvania, then sold it to Funai. In 2000, Philips was the largest manufacturer of semiconductors, having acquired both Signetics and VLSI Technology. later spun off as NXP to a private investment consortium. If you own a Sonicare electric toothbrush, that's Philips too. It's pretty safe to say that almost everyone has a Philips product somewhere in their life--it may not be branded with the Philips name however. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Sep 11 15:50:05 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 13:50:05 -0700 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: <20160911172522.9EB9618C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3AB888AF-0CD7-48A0-93B7-ADF5C5DD0858@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Sep-11, at 11:09 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Sep 11, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> ... >> I don't think anyone looks down on the more obscure machines, in fact I >> personally (and many others, I suspect) are very happy to see people paying >> attention to them, and my respects to the people who are working to save them. > > One of the problems with "obscure European machinery" is that documentation is not available. No Siemens computers, for example. And the only trace I have found of the Philips PR8000 is a one line mention in a list of computers, just enough to confirm that's the machine I once used whose model number I had forgotten. > > It's not clear why this is so. Fewer collectors? Not much commercial success for some or many of those machines? But it's not just European machines falling to obscurity, it's the range of minis in general. There were dozens and dozens of now-forgotten minicomputer models in the US in the late-60s/early-70s, both from small-time manufacturers and lesser-known models from well-known companies. bitsaver's has a list that gives an idea of the scope: ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/topic/minicomputer/ComputerDesign_Apr71.pdf I'd love to see or (be able to) build a museum/collection displaying that range but how much of that hardware will one run across nowadays? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Sep 11 16:40:44 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 17:40:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need info on obscure Flip Chip Message-ID: <20160911214044.92F1818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Sep 11 16:41:16 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 17:41:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need info on obscure Flip Chip Message-ID: <20160911214116.75CB918C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, I'm looking for information on a semi-obscure Flip Chip; an M826 (sort sort of combination clock/counter). I can't find out anything about it. Apparently the M8xx Flip Chips were generally custom modules intended for a specific device, which is probably why I can't find anything on it. I've looked in the Digital Logic Handbooks for 1969-1977, with no luck. So I also looked through the Spare Module Handbook to see if I could find something else that used it, so I could see if the documentation for that thing covered it (e.g. I found the M167 in the RS64 Maintenance Manual). However, I struck out there too. My Google-fu wasn't strong enough to turn up anything online. Anyone have anything on this beast? Noel From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 11 16:57:16 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 14:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using a modern USB joystick on a vintage computer (Atari compatible) In-Reply-To: from Mark Wickens at "Sep 11, 16 10:28:03 am" Message-ID: <201609112157.u8BLvGaa19923878@floodgap.com> > I've seen plenty of examples of adapters to use a vintage joystick with > a modern computer. > > I'd like the opposite - to use a USB controller with a vintage computer > (Atari compatible - for example ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64). Does anyone > know of an adapter or a homebrew project? Since these are digital joysticks, I imagine hooking one up to something like a Pocket CHIP or RPi and then using the GPIO lines to switch current (connected to, say, a 4066 or similar) should work. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Atheism is a non-prophet organization. ------------------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 11 16:58:05 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 14:58:05 -0700 Subject: Need info on obscure Flip Chip In-Reply-To: <20160911214116.75CB918C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160911214116.75CB918C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 9/11/16 2:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Hi, I'm looking for information on a semi-obscure Flip Chip; an M826 (sort > sort of combination clock/counter). I can't find out anything about it. > Apparently the M8xx Flip Chips were generally custom modules intended for > a specific device, which is probably why I can't find anything on it. > it was a new module in the apr83 options and modules list 75 TO 250 NS CLOCK WITH SR. (8 PHASE CLOCK) used in the 11 product family From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 11 16:59:01 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 14:59:01 -0700 Subject: Need info on obscure Flip Chip In-Reply-To: References: <20160911214116.75CB918C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0bc0b4b2-3419-bec4-650e-6a07305fa6ea@bitsavers.org> on page 343 of 835 editedOptionModuleLst_Apr83.pdf On 9/11/16 2:58 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 9/11/16 2:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> Hi, I'm looking for information on a semi-obscure Flip Chip; an M826 (sort >> sort of combination clock/counter). I can't find out anything about it. >> Apparently the M8xx Flip Chips were generally custom modules intended for >> a specific device, which is probably why I can't find anything on it. >> > > it was a new module in the apr83 options and modules list > 75 TO 250 NS CLOCK WITH SR. (8 PHASE CLOCK) > > used in the 11 product family > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Sep 11 17:00:11 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 15:00:11 -0700 Subject: Need info on obscure Flip Chip In-Reply-To: <20160911214116.75CB918C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160911214116.75CB918C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160911150011.1c1e8ea7@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 17:41:16 -0400 (EDT) jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: > Hi, I'm looking for information on a semi-obscure Flip Chip; an M826 > (sort sort of combination clock/counter). I can't find out anything > about it. Apparently the M8xx Flip Chips were generally custom > modules intended for a specific device, which is probably why I can't > find anything on it. --snip-- From "Options and Modules List (197406) M826 for PDP-11 5 to 250 NS CLOCK WITH SR, (8 PHASE CLOCK), SINGLE X 8,9 Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Sep 11 17:09:49 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 18:09:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need info on obscure Flip Chip Message-ID: <20160911220949.6C7A818C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Yes, I did see that list entry, but I was needing the pinout, a more detailed functional description, etc. Noel From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Sep 11 17:19:30 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 16:19:30 -0600 Subject: Finding developer docs for VME hardware? In-Reply-To: <44bc6b38-14da-5ee2-55b7-e86d6c3ca375@bitsavers.org> References: <20160910212849.GA22229@lonesome.com> <8C535AD4-7CBF-4DF2-AE43-94C74016EEBC@eschatologist.net> <44bc6b38-14da-5ee2-55b7-e86d6c3ca375@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 9/11/16 9:08 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >> Most of the VME gear pre-dates folks putting it online on their web >> sites. This means that what exists is on paper and since there was >> never the fanatical devotion to preservation like the pdp-11 gear in >> that community, most of it is gone to the landfill. > > I started actively looking for VME documenation a many years ago. At that > time mostly for Sun-related VME boards. > Like you say, much is already unobtanium. There are some manuals up under various > manufacturers on bitsavers. Most of the VME boards were subject to more NDA contraints than DEC gear, so the few paper copies of the manuals have gone to the landfills rather than to bitsavers :( Warner From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 11 18:29:32 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 16:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Sep 2016, Adrian Stoness wrote: > so some actual macheans survived? love to see photos Many machines survived, including an amazing variety of machines that Philips made, some of them being computer related. But NO macheans survived. Not one. Clan MacHean in Scotland denies ever being involved with anything like that. On the other hand, Clan MacPherson could really strut when it came to automotive suspensions. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 18:30:55 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 01:30:55 +0200 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 September 2016 at 01:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > > But NO macheans survived. Not one. > > > Clan MacHean in Scotland denies ever being involved with anything like that. > On the other hand, Clan MacPherson could really strut when it came to > automotive suspensions. *Groan* -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Sun Sep 11 19:23:52 2016 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (Syd Bolton) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 20:23:52 -0400 Subject: Using a modern USB joystick on a vintage computer (Atari compatible) In-Reply-To: <201609112157.u8BLvGaa19923878@floodgap.com> References: <201609112157.u8BLvGaa19923878@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5c32d95b29cdeb8a478057d0858be01f@bfree.on.ca> I think this is what you are looking for: http://www.retronicdesign.com/en/ On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 14:57:16 -0700 (PDT), Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I've seen plenty of examples of adapters to use a vintage joystick >> with >> a modern computer. >> >> I'd like the opposite - to use a USB controller with a vintage >> computer >> (Atari compatible - for example ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64). Does >> anyone >> know of an adapter or a homebrew project? > > Since these are digital joysticks, I imagine hooking one up to > something > like a Pocket CHIP or RPi and then using the GPIO lines to switch > current > (connected to, say, a 4066 or similar) should work. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 11 19:26:03 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 17:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using a modern USB joystick on a vintage computer (Atari compatible) In-Reply-To: <5c32d95b29cdeb8a478057d0858be01f@bfree.on.ca> from Syd Bolton at "Sep 11, 16 08:23:52 pm" Message-ID: <201609120026.u8C0Q35l54788294@floodgap.com> > > > I've seen plenty of examples of adapters to use a vintage joystick > > > with > > > a modern computer. > > > > > > I'd like the opposite - to use a USB controller with a vintage > > > computer > > I think this is what you are looking for: > > http://www.retronicdesign.com/en/ No, he's looking for the opposite direction. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I believe in getting into hot water; it keeps you clean. -- G.K. Chesterton From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Sep 11 20:35:26 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 18:35:26 -0700 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <2DA44972-0EA3-4185-9F0C-A1BC1B9CADC4@gmail.com> References: <2DA44972-0EA3-4185-9F0C-A1BC1B9CADC4@gmail.com> Message-ID: What do you mean by ?retired,? and what kind of setup did you have for it? -- Chris > On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:10 AM, George Rachor wrote: > > I just retired my G4 cube (still working). Replaced it with a NOT NEW iMac. > > George Rachor > george at rachors.com > > >> On Sep 11, 2016, at 7:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=30456459#p30456459 >> >> Found via: >> >> http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/09/an-os-9-odyssey-why-do-some-mac-users-still-rely-on-16-year-old-software/ >> >> -- >> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile >> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven >> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven >> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Sep 11 20:43:32 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 18:43:32 -0700 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This person was talking about 680x0-based Macs being ?16-bit.? Ugh. -- Chris > On Sep 11, 2016, at 7:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=30456459#p30456459 > > Found via: > > http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/09/an-os-9-odyssey-why-do-some-mac-users-still-rely-on-16-year-old-software/ > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Sun Sep 11 21:20:58 2016 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (Syd Bolton) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 22:20:58 -0400 Subject: Using a modern USB joystick on a vintage computer (Atari compatible) In-Reply-To: <201609120026.u8C0Q35l54788294@floodgap.com> References: <201609120026.u8C0Q35l54788294@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Oh darn you are right sorry brain fart Sent from my iPhone On Sep 11, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> I've seen plenty of examples of adapters to use a vintage joystick >>>> with >>>> a modern computer. >>>> >>>> I'd like the opposite - to use a USB controller with a vintage >>>> computer >> >> I think this is what you are looking for: >> >> http://www.retronicdesign.com/en/ > > No, he's looking for the opposite direction. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- I believe in getting into hot water; it keeps you clean. -- G.K. Chesterton From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 21:24:24 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 19:24:24 -0700 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 4:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 11 Sep 2016, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> so some actual macheans survived? love to see photos >> > > Many machines survived, including an amazing variety of machines that > Philips made, some of them being computer related. > > > But NO macheans survived. Not one. > > > Clan MacHean in Scotland denies ever being involved with anything like > that. > On the other hand, Clan MacPherson could really strut when it came to > automotive suspensions. > > > Whoops, there goes my suspension of disbelief. -- Charles From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Sun Sep 11 21:49:19 2016 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 19:49:19 -0700 Subject: Using a modern USB joystick on a vintage computer (Atari compatible) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10B689A5-7905-4C55-B5F8-3A003BDE2450@fozztexx.com> On Sep 11, 2016, at 2:28 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > I'd like the opposite - to use a USB controller with a vintage computer (Atari compatible - for example ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64). Does anyone know of an adapter or a homebrew project? I've been using a Raspberry Pi, some shift registers connected to GPIO, and my ninepin project to do that. It definitely makes gaming a lot more fun. Recently I've also been messing around with getting analog support working so that I can also connect it up to my Apple II, TRS-80 CoCo, BBC Micro, IBM PC, and have paddle support on the Commodore and Atari too. The software and schematics are all available on github, and you can read more about it here: http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/264 -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Sep 11 21:52:39 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 21:52:39 -0500 Subject: obscure forgoten Machean of Europe? In-Reply-To: <839f6a56-47a1-7e47-1236-454558d11ef5@sydex.com> References: <196A542E-CE5D-4566-B076-E6C383982CFA@comcast.net> <839f6a56-47a1-7e47-1236-454558d11ef5@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57D61877.7070006@pico-systems.com> On 09/11/2016 01:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 09/11/2016 08:23 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Philips was founded around the end of the 19th century as a maker of >> light bulbs, got into vacuum tubes in the 1920s or so. Original name was N. V. Philips' Gloeilampenfabrieken > > Philips was into everything. For simple appliances, most in North > America were completely unaware of the parent company, because personal > care products are marketed under the "Norelco" brand. I believe that > Philips acquired Sylvania, then sold it to Funai. > My pick and place machine has the Philips label, but was actually made by Yamaha. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 11 16:11:48 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 22:11:48 +0100 Subject: Next order of MFM emulator/reader baords In-Reply-To: <20160911145121.GA12789@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20160911145121.GA12789@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <04e001d20c71$1c57a770$5506f650$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David > Gesswein > Sent: 11 September 2016 15:51 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Next order of MFM emulator/reader baords > > I will be ordering another batch of boards. If you wish to order more boards > email me djg at pdp8online.com with how many and if bare, with surface > mount chips, or fully assembled. If you currently are on the waiting list you > don't need to reply. > > Info is here. > http://www.pdp8online.com/mfm/ > > The price may be $5 more since it looks like the quantity will be less than last > time. Bare boards should ship by end of month. I haven't found a place at > these quantities to have them assembled for less than listed price so have > been doing them myself. Assembled boards may be a couple more weeks. > > I will collect payment when getting ready to start shipping. I can't say I am clear on the final price of an assembled board to Europe. When you say assembled do you mean *all* parts, or just the surface mounted ones? I have never done surface mount and I am not sure what is required to be able to do it, so would probably prefer assembled (at least for the surface mount). Regards Rob From george.rachor at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 22:09:09 2016 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 20:09:09 -0700 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: <2DA44972-0EA3-4185-9F0C-A1BC1B9CADC4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <28E69F06-AFF3-4D04-9985-6B67E4DC499F@gmail.com> My wife and I purchased the G4 cube, monitor, as well as enhanced sound package. It?s primary purchase was using it as a music server and some games. My wife was working with Apple II e?s and very early Mac?s at the time. Over time I had to replace a failing hard drive. I retired it last week as I couldn?t put a modern browser on it. The last few years I used it for only music. Retire means I?m packing it up to put in a dust proof container and placed in storage. Not looking to get rid of it but will obviously will someday. Not really vintage but it has served a long and happy life. George Rachor Hillsboro, Oregon george at rachors.com > On Sep 11, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > > What do you mean by ?retired,? and what kind of setup did you have for it? > > -- Chris > >> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:10 AM, George Rachor wrote: >> >> I just retired my G4 cube (still working). Replaced it with a NOT NEW iMac. >> >> George Rachor >> george at rachors.com >> >> >>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 7:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=30456459#p30456459 >>> >>> Found via: >>> >>> http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/09/an-os-9-odyssey-why-do-some-mac-users-still-rely-on-16-year-old-software/ >>> >>> -- >>> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile >>> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven >>> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven >>> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) >> > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 12 01:09:06 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 23:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <28E69F06-AFF3-4D04-9985-6B67E4DC499F@gmail.com> from George Rachor at "Sep 11, 16 08:09:09 pm" Message-ID: <201609120609.u8C696Ab61932494@floodgap.com> > I retired it last week as I couldn't put a modern browser on it. *cough* http://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff. -- Frank Zappa ---- From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Sep 12 01:23:56 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 23:23:56 -0700 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... Message-ID: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Man I remember when the Cube came out.. I saw one on display at an Apple store with 23 inch Cinema display. ?Man I wanted one badly. ?But wayyyy too much money. ?Definitely want one for my collection. ?Probably not too expensive now. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: George Rachor Date: 2016-09-11 8:09 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... My wife and I purchased the G4 cube, monitor, as well as enhanced sound package.? It?s primary? purchase was using it as a music server and some games.? My wife was working with Apple II e?s and very early Mac?s at the time. Over time I had to replace a failing hard drive. I retired it last week as I couldn?t put a modern browser on it.? The last few years I used it for only music. Retire means I?m packing it up to put in a dust proof container and placed in storage. Not looking to get rid of it but will obviously will someday. Not really vintage but it has served a long and happy life. George Rachor Hillsboro, Oregon george at rachors.com > On Sep 11, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > > What do you mean by ?retired,? and what kind of setup did you have for it? > >? -- Chris > >> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:10 AM, George Rachor wrote: >> >> I just retired my G4 cube (still working).? Replaced it with a NOT NEW iMac. >> >> George Rachor >> george at rachors.com >> >> >>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 7:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=30456459#p30456459 >>> >>> Found via: >>> >>> http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/09/an-os-9-odyssey-why-do-some-mac-users-still-rely-on-16-year-old-software/ >>> >>> -- >>> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile >>> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven >>> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven >>> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) >> > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Sep 12 04:21:43 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 11:21:43 +0200 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160912092143.GA12281@mooli.org.uk> On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 06:43:32PM -0700, Chris Hanson wrote: > This person was talking about 680x0-based Macs being ?16-bit.? Ugh. The original 68000 *was*. Although there were instructions for 32 bit ALU operations, it only had a 16 bit ALU and the operands had to go through the ALU twice. This illusion went away with multiplication and division, which only existed in 16 bit form. The 68020 onwards made the CPU fully 32 bit, although various bits of legacy 16 bit cruft remained for compatibility. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Mon Sep 12 07:16:50 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 13:16:50 +0100 Subject: OpenVMS manuals (Grey wall + HP) available, Windermere UK Message-ID: <20160912121650.GB6115@gmail.com> Greetings I have a set of OpenVMS 7.3 era manuals available (grey wall). They are located in Windermere, UK. At the moment I am unable to ship them due to lack of packing materials so it would be either via collection or by an arrangement. The manuals are generally in good condition. I can get a list together if anyone is interested. I also have a large numbr of HP/Compaq softbound manuals which came as a set also available. Please email me direct if interested. I am the organiser of declegacy.org.uk so if you want to come along on October 15th-16th and collect them you've got a reason to visit Windermere. Please feel free to pass this message on to anyone you think might be interested. Regards, Mark. ----- End forwarded message ----- From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 09:33:26 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:33:26 +0200 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 September 2016 at 03:43, Chris Hanson wrote: > This person was talking about 680x0-based Macs being ?16-bit.? Ugh. Well, to be specific, the interviewee was talking about something that is networking-specific on System 7.5, which implies pre-7.6 and thus pre-Open Transport. IIRC 7.6 is also the first release that requires 32-bit clean ROMs -- 7.5 and earlier didn't. So it sounds like a legitimate misunderstanding, probably via over-zealous editing. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 12 11:30:50 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:30:50 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: On 9/11/16 11:23 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > Definitely want one for my collection. Probably not too expensive now. > They make nice Kleenex dispensers. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 12 11:32:28 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:32:28 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: On 9/12/16 9:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 9/11/16 11:23 PM, Brad H wrote: >> >> >> Definitely want one for my collection. Probably not too expensive now. >> > > They make nice Kleenex dispensers. > > http://www.cultofmac.com/62678/diy-powermac-g4-cube-tissue-dispenser/ From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Sep 12 10:12:14 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 11:12:14 -0400 Subject: Recovering 4mm tar tapes Message-ID: I have a pair of 4mm DDS tapes from 1999 that I would like to recover. I was able to read one with tar on a Debian (jessie) Linux system, but the second gives an error. The tape that I could read is a Sony with DDS markings and 4 bars next to the DDS logo. It was written on an SGI computer. I was able to read this with a simple tar -xvf /dev/st0 command. The second tape is a 3M brand with DDS markings and 4 bars next to the DDS logo. It also has 'Media Recognition System' and DD-90 written on it. Here is the dialog and error: root at T5400deb:/home/taylor/4mm_tar_1998# lsscsi [0:0:4:0] disk codesrc SCSI2SD 4.2 /dev/sdc [0:0:5:0] disk codesrc SCSI2SD 4.2 /dev/sdd [0:0:6:0] tape ARCHIVE 4326XX 27871-XXX 0324 /dev/st0 [3:0:0:0] disk ATA WDC WD800JD-75MS 1E04 /dev/sda [3:0:1:0] cd/dvd PLDS DVD+-RW DH-16A6S YD11 /dev/sr0 [4:0:0:0] disk ATA ST500DM002-1BD14 KC45 /dev/sdb root at T5400deb:/home/taylor/4mm_tar_1998# mt -f /dev/st0 status drive type = 114 drive status = 318767616 sense key error = 0 residue count = 0 file number = 0 block number = 0 root at T5400deb:/home/taylor/4mm_tar_1998# tar -xvf /dev/st0 tar: /dev/st0: Cannot read: Input/output error tar: At beginning of tape, quitting now tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now The tape drive is a Seagate CTD8000R-S with COMPAQ markings. There are 5 jumpers to configure the drive and one is for MRS which the jumper config page I have says it is enabled (Default), however the pins are missing for that option. What does that mean? (None of the config jumpers were installed for the tape that I could read) Is the 2nd tape just bad and can't be read? Or do I need a slightly different tape drive? Doug From azd30 at telus.net Mon Sep 12 12:41:29 2016 From: azd30 at telus.net (alex d) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 11:41:29 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Classic computer get together in Lower Mainland, BC, Canada In-Reply-To: <515118311.108712473.1473701145451.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Message-ID: <1046018755.108745162.1473702089585.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Hi, This might only be of interest to people in the Pacific North West. We are starting a new retro-computer club in Chilliwack, BC. Both Rob C, and myself have a pretty good collection of 'classic' computers and rather than having them sit in a basement collecting dust, we thought we'd bring them out on a monthly basis for show and tells and demos... We are planning on making this a monthly meeting. I plan on bringing an ATARI 130XE w/1050 and an SD2SIO card, and the ATARI Assembler to demonstrate some 6502 ML programming, a minimal PDP11/23 in a H9281-BA enclosure (CPU, memory and DLV11 to power up to ODT) and a GrID tablet computer Rob C (who set this whole thing up) will be bringing: >I was thinking I would bring out some of the micro-controllers I have been using, together with my >ATMega based home brew computer that I have been building. I was also thinking of bringing >out my retro-chip tune tracker PC that I built and do a music demo. Meeting details: CHILLIWACK RETRO-COMPUTING CLUB 7:00PM September 22, 2016 Sardis (FVRL) Library 5819 Tyson Road, Sardis, BC We also have an email and a FB group set up (web site coming soon): chilliwackretro (at) gmail (dot) com www.facebook.com/chilliwackretro cheers -- alex From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 13:39:42 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 13:39:42 -0500 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > > They make nice Kleenex dispensers. > > > > > > http://www.cultofmac.com/62678/diy-powermac-g4-cube-tissue-dispenser/ > > > Why, why, why? sheesh. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 12 15:15:44 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 13:15:44 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: <39eabe7f-6c0b-556d-29bb-dd6b155f9a1e@bitsavers.org> Put it this way. The product manager for the cube was the first person I know of who had one as a kleenex dispenser. It was a failed industrial design experiment that never should have shipped and even he felt that way. On 9/12/16 11:39 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> >> >> >>> >>> They make nice Kleenex dispensers. >>> >>> >> >> http://www.cultofmac.com/62678/diy-powermac-g4-cube-tissue-dispenser/ >> >> >> > Why, why, why? sheesh. > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Sep 12 15:40:56 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 13:40:56 -0700 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <20160912092143.GA12281@mooli.org.uk> References: <20160912092143.GA12281@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <36774160-444A-4287-B613-7168960DD85E@eschatologist.net> On Sep 12, 2016, at 2:21 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 06:43:32PM -0700, Chris Hanson wrote: >> This person was talking about 680x0-based Macs being ?16-bit.? Ugh. > > The original 68000 *was*. Although there were instructions for 32 bit ALU > operations, it only had a 16 bit ALU and the operands had to go through the ALU > twice. This illusion went away with multiplication and division, which only > existed in 16 bit form. > > The 68020 onwards made the CPU fully 32 bit, although various bits of legacy 16 > bit cruft remained for compatibility. No, the 68000 was a 32-bit CPU, as defined by the register width and programming model. The fact that it was implemented with a 16-bit ALU and had a 16-bit data path to memory is immaterial. -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Sep 12 15:42:24 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 13:42:24 -0700 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <284916FA-C08C-496F-9B97-8F21FEDFF7C8@eschatologist.net> On Sep 12, 2016, at 7:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 12 September 2016 at 03:43, Chris Hanson wrote: >> This person was talking about 680x0-based Macs being ?16-bit.? Ugh. > > > Well, to be specific, the interviewee was talking about something that > is networking-specific on System 7.5, which implies pre-7.6 and thus > pre-Open Transport. IIRC 7.6 is also the first release that requires > 32-bit clean ROMs -- 7.5 and earlier didn't. > > So it sounds like a legitimate misunderstanding, probably via > over-zealous editing. It was from a forum post, and the editors should have caught it. The existence of "32-bit clean" ROMs does not imply that the prior ROMs ? or CPU architecture! ? were 16-bit, or that operating systems that ran on them were. -- Chris From cruff at ruffspot.net Mon Sep 12 13:16:10 2016 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:16:10 -0600 Subject: Recovering 4mm tar tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85CA1D6D-AB00-4749-B4A3-93295FA1955B@ruffspot.net> > On Sep 12, 2016, at 11:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Is the 2nd tape just bad and can't be read? Or do I need a > slightly different tape drive? It may be bad or perhaps it was written with a larger block size? I don?t recall what tar does if the tape was written with a record size larger than the default. You might try using dd if=/dev/st0 bs=65532 of=... on the tape to see if you can read it at all. I don?t recall what the maximum record size on these tapes are, but it seems like it isn?t a full 65KiB. Also, make sure the drive is not configured for fixed block mode. From rlloken at telus.net Mon Sep 12 16:10:32 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 15:10:32 -0600 (MDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: jXdebYQRNIF3xjXdgbEpLz References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> jXdebYQRNIF3xjXdgbEpLz Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > Put it this way. The product manager for the cube was the first person > I know of who had one as a kleenex dispenser. It was a failed industrial > design experiment that never should have shipped and even he felt that > way. And now they have the mac pro which looks like a very elegant $3,000.00 can of tomato juice. Not much changes. Meanwhile, I am on my second mac Mini (third if you count my wife's) because i really like the mac mini so I probably would have bought the cube if I had been in the market for a mac at that time. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Sep 12 16:14:01 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 14:14:01 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: > On Sep 12, 2016, at 14:10 , Richard Loken wrote: > > On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Put it this way. The product manager for the cube was the first person >> I know of who had one as a kleenex dispenser. It was a failed industrial >> design experiment that never should have shipped and even he felt that >> way. > > And now they have the mac pro which looks like a very elegant $3,000.00 > can of tomato juice. Not much changes. I think it looks more like a trash can, or perhaps a flower pot. I'd like a nice Oscar the Grouch doll to install in the top vent of mine. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From js at cimmeri.com Mon Sep 12 16:32:40 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:32:40 -0500 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <39eabe7f-6c0b-556d-29bb-dd6b155f9a1e@bitsavers.org> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <39eabe7f-6c0b-556d-29bb-dd6b155f9a1e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <57D71EF8.1010900@cimmeri.com> Why in your opinion was it a failed experiment? I had one and liked it very much. - J. On 9/12/2016 3:15 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Put it this way. The product manager for the cube was the first person > I know of who had one as a kleenex dispenser. It was a failed industrial > design experiment that never should have shipped and even he felt that > way. > > > On 9/12/16 11:39 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>>> They make nice Kleenex dispensers. >>>> >>>> >>> From ryan at hack.net Mon Sep 12 16:34:12 2016 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:34:12 -0500 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <284916FA-C08C-496F-9B97-8F21FEDFF7C8@eschatologist.net> References: <284916FA-C08C-496F-9B97-8F21FEDFF7C8@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <468a3737-9896-cf92-2636-81bb23d7e157@hack.net> On 9/12/16 3:42 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > On Sep 12, 2016, at 7:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 12 September 2016 at 03:43, Chris Hanson wrote: >>> This person was talking about 680x0-based Macs being ?16-bit.? Ugh. >> >> Well, to be specific, the interviewee was talking about something that >> is networking-specific on System 7.5, which implies pre-7.6 and thus >> pre-Open Transport. IIRC 7.6 is also the first release that requires >> 32-bit clean ROMs -- 7.5 and earlier didn't. >> >> So it sounds like a legitimate misunderstanding, probably via >> over-zealous editing. > It was from a forum post, and the editors should have caught it. The existence of "32-bit clean" ROMs does not imply that the prior ROMs ? or CPU architecture! ? were 16-bit, or that operating systems that ran on them were. > Particularly when the issue was 24-bit vs 32-bit. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 12 17:05:52 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:05:52 +0100 Subject: Recovering 4mm tar tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d1f4692-089e-dbb4-32fc-cc2508f20ac3@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/09/2016 16:12, Douglas Taylor wrote: > I have a pair of 4mm DDS tapes from 1999 that I would like to recover. > I was able to read one with tar on a Debian (jessie) Linux system, but > the second gives an error. > The second tape is a 3M brand with DDS markings and 4 bars next to the > DDS logo. It also has 'Media Recognition System' and DD-90 written on > it. Here is the dialog and error: > root at T5400deb:/home/taylor/4mm_tar_1998# tar -xvf /dev/st0 > tar: /dev/st0: Cannot read: Input/output error > tar: At beginning of tape, quitting now > tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now > (None of the config jumpers were installed for the tape that I could > read) Is the 2nd tape just bad and can't be read? Or do I need a > slightly different tape drive? It could be corrupt, or it could be byte-swapped, or it could have a strange block size (especially a small one), or the heads might need cleaned after reading the last tape, or it might not have any valid data. Does the debian tape driver support byte-swapping? Or is there a bs and non-bs version? You could try reading it with something like dd if=/dev/rmt/tapedevice bs=20b conv=swab | tar tvf - or whatever the debian tape device equivalent is. Does debian have some equivalent to mt(1) to read/set the drive's blocksize and to move forward and back along the tape? Personally I hate DDS/DDS2/DDS3. I always had better luck with half inch and even 8mm, and better still with DLT. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 17:58:14 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 00:58:14 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: On 12 September 2016 at 23:10, Richard Loken wrote: > Meanwhile, I am on my second mac Mini Actually, now that you come to mention it, so am I. I had -- have -- a G4 as well as the Core i5 I'm typing on. It was never my main machine, though. The thing I like about the minis, I guess, is that I have free choice of display, keyboard and mouse. I like iMacs -- I have a dead G5, too -- but they're not very expandable and if they die you can't reuse the screen. Whereas my Mac mini has 3rd party RAM and both an SSD and an HD (upgrades from a Toshiba desktop-replacement notebook that the Mac replaced) on a 3rd party bracket, and I'm using a Dell 5-button mouse and an Apple Extended keyboard from '97 or so, on a 3rd-party ADB-USB adaptor. And a pair of mismatched 2nd hand 23" LCDs. All cheap, all used and repurposed. I don't like Apple's modern keyboards, mice, trackpads etc., so if I bought a new iPad, they'd be effectively wasted. The Retina iMac has a lovely screen, but it's also jolly expensive and these sub-$100 used items are good enough. Small, cheap, quiet, does the job. And with the original '80s keyboard, it _feels_ (and sounds) like a proper (i.e. '80s) Mac when I'm typing on it. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 12 18:21:22 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > And with the original '80s keyboard, it _feels_ (and sounds) like a > proper (i.e. '80s) Mac when I'm typing on it. :-) well, . . . you should put a microphone into an old mouse, and start designing transparent aluminum panels. From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Sep 12 18:35:34 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 19:35:34 -0400 Subject: Recovering 4mm tar tapes In-Reply-To: <7d1f4692-089e-dbb4-32fc-cc2508f20ac3@dunnington.plus.com> References: <7d1f4692-089e-dbb4-32fc-cc2508f20ac3@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <140f9c77-307b-a108-644e-28b8e9ca7750@comcast.net> On 9/12/2016 6:05 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 12/09/2016 16:12, Douglas Taylor wrote: >> I have a pair of 4mm DDS tapes from 1999 that I would like to recover. >> I was able to read one with tar on a Debian (jessie) Linux system, but >> the second gives an error. > >> The second tape is a 3M brand with DDS markings and 4 bars next to the >> DDS logo. It also has 'Media Recognition System' and DD-90 written on >> it. Here is the dialog and error: > >> root at T5400deb:/home/taylor/4mm_tar_1998# tar -xvf /dev/st0 >> tar: /dev/st0: Cannot read: Input/output error >> tar: At beginning of tape, quitting now >> tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now > >> (None of the config jumpers were installed for the tape that I could >> read) Is the 2nd tape just bad and can't be read? Or do I need a >> slightly different tape drive? > > It could be corrupt, or it could be byte-swapped, or it could have a > strange block size (especially a small one), or the heads might need > cleaned after reading the last tape, or it might not have any valid > data. Does the debian tape driver support byte-swapping? Or is there > a bs and non-bs version? You could try reading it with something like > dd if=/dev/rmt/tapedevice bs=20b conv=swab | tar tvf - > or whatever the debian tape device equivalent is. Does debian have > some equivalent to mt(1) to read/set the drive's blocksize and to move > forward and back along the tape? > > Personally I hate DDS/DDS2/DDS3. I always had better luck with half > inch and even 8mm, and better still with DLT. > I tried using different blocksizes with no luck. Debian does have the mt command and I was able to use it to get the tape status, rewind and was able to have it move the tape forward a number of records (not sure what a record is) #mt -f /dev/st0 fsr 10 worked. I seem to remember from those days that the brand of tape was critical and that you could use audio tapes (DAT). I even tried od to see if I could anything from the drive, no luck. I guess the cartridge is bad. Doug From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 18:46:23 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 01:46:23 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: On 13 September 2016 at 01:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > > well, . . . > you should put a microphone into an old mouse, and start designing > transparent aluminum panels. Heh. :-) It's rather odd. I have, or have had, a number of hobbies over the years, and most have been odd enough that I never knew anyone else into them. The closest I've ever come to popular pastimes were things like being into recumbent bicycles or motor trikes -- pretty niche activities. (Oh, and retrocomputing and you lot, natch.) But vintage mechanical keyboards are a thing of which I'm very fond. I specifically brought my cleanest IBM Model M with me when I moved countries, and later, when I bought this Mac mini, I went back to London and dug out an Apple Extended II and my ADB convertor. Now, though, vintage keyboard fancying is a big thing, and there are multiple websites devoted to it. For example, in re my current keyboard: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_Extended_Keyboard http://lowendmac.com/2006/the-legendary-apple-extended-keyboard/ And there are compare-and-contrast pieces: https://www.wired.com/2008/05/a-tale-of-two-k/ For me, this feels positively mainstream. At both my office jobs over here in Czechia, people came over to see what I was typing on, to feel it and try it. It's most disconcerting. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From rlloken at telus.net Mon Sep 12 19:32:51 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 18:32:51 -0600 (MDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: jaBAbNzBYvv77jaBCbfZhC References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> jaBAbNzBYvv77jaBCbfZhC Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > Whereas my Mac mini has 3rd party RAM and both an SSD and an HD > (upgrades from a Toshiba desktop-replacement notebook that the Mac > replaced) on a 3rd party bracket, and I'm using a Dell 5-button mouse > and an Apple Extended keyboard from '97 or so, on a 3rd-party ADB-USB > adaptor. And a pair of mismatched 2nd hand 23" LCDs. ... > And with the original '80s keyboard, it _feels_ (and sounds) like a > proper (i.e. '80s) Mac when I'm typing on it. :-) My Mac Mini has been treated to new modern keyboard purchased at rediculous expense upon the recommendation of my long time friend G.L.Nerenberg II. And it says underneath "WASD Model: V2 Type: Cherry MX Green". It is gloriously noisy! I have an aluminum Apple keyboard in the box this keyboard came out of, those Apple chicklet keyboard are just plain horrible. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rlloken at telus.net Mon Sep 12 19:39:49 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 18:39:49 -0600 (MDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: jYYIb6K0UnrRxjYYJb4MES References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> jYYIb6K0UnrRxjYYJb4MES Message-ID: Mark, I strongly support the addition of Oscar to your Mac Pro. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Sep 12 19:50:17 2016 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 17:50:17 -0700 Subject: Recovering 4mm tar tapes In-Reply-To: <140f9c77-307b-a108-644e-28b8e9ca7750@comcast.net> References: <7d1f4692-089e-dbb4-32fc-cc2508f20ac3@dunnington.plus.com> <140f9c77-307b-a108-644e-28b8e9ca7750@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3740519c-c72f-37c7-7fde-1b21ae8cb4a3@crash.com> On 09/12/16 16:35, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > I tried using different blocksizes with no luck. Debian does have the > mt command and I was able to use it to get the tape status, rewind and > was able to have it move the tape forward a number of records (not sure > what a record is) > > #mt -f /dev/st0 fsr 10 > > worked. But as soon as it skipped anything, it would have rewound to the beginning of the tape... Rather than skipping records, I'd be curious about skipping the first "file" in case you have an EOF mark at the start of the tape. You'd do this with something like "mt -f /dev/nrst0 fsf 1" The previous suggestion of using dd(1) is a good one, maybe you tried the following and maybe not. Use the "mt rewind" command to make sure you're at the beginning of the tape, then use dd with the "no rewind" device, e.g. /dev/nrst0 or nst0. Hit it a couple times just in case there were some bad writes at the start of the tape. % mt -f /dev/st0 rewind % dd if=/dev/nrst0 of=file-1.bin % dd if=/dev/nrst0 of=file-2.bin % dd if=/dev/nrst0 of=file-3.bin ... You may just get zero-length files. Or, maybe you'll get past some damage and get some of your data. Worth a shot, provided the tape isn't shedding oxide... > I guess the cartridge is bad. Possible. It also sounded like your problem tape might be DDS-1, while your other tape might have been a later, higher capacity. Might that be a problem for the drive you have? I haven't tried different density 4mm tapes in drives in ages... --S. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 12 19:59:49 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 20:59:49 -0400 Subject: Recovering 4mm tar tapes In-Reply-To: <140f9c77-307b-a108-644e-28b8e9ca7750@comcast.net> References: <7d1f4692-089e-dbb4-32fc-cc2508f20ac3@dunnington.plus.com> <140f9c77-307b-a108-644e-28b8e9ca7750@comcast.net> Message-ID: <824133CD77EC4DCE8F410A518780D2A8@TeoPC> What drive type are you trying to read that tape with? DD-90 is DDS-1 era tape and DDS-4 drives (or newer) will not read it. Also hardware compression might have something to do with it. -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Taylor Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 7:35 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Recovering 4mm tar tapes On 9/12/2016 6:05 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 12/09/2016 16:12, Douglas Taylor wrote: >> I have a pair of 4mm DDS tapes from 1999 that I would like to recover. >> I was able to read one with tar on a Debian (jessie) Linux system, but >> the second gives an error. > >> The second tape is a 3M brand with DDS markings and 4 bars next to the >> DDS logo. It also has 'Media Recognition System' and DD-90 written on >> it. Here is the dialog and error: > >> root at T5400deb:/home/taylor/4mm_tar_1998# tar -xvf /dev/st0 >> tar: /dev/st0: Cannot read: Input/output error >> tar: At beginning of tape, quitting now >> tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now > >> (None of the config jumpers were installed for the tape that I could >> read) Is the 2nd tape just bad and can't be read? Or do I need a >> slightly different tape drive? > > It could be corrupt, or it could be byte-swapped, or it could have a > strange block size (especially a small one), or the heads might need > cleaned after reading the last tape, or it might not have any valid data. > Does the debian tape driver support byte-swapping? Or is there a bs and > non-bs version? You could try reading it with something like > dd if=/dev/rmt/tapedevice bs=20b conv=swab | tar tvf - > or whatever the debian tape device equivalent is. Does debian have some > equivalent to mt(1) to read/set the drive's blocksize and to move forward > and back along the tape? > > Personally I hate DDS/DDS2/DDS3. I always had better luck with half inch > and even 8mm, and better still with DLT. > I tried using different blocksizes with no luck. Debian does have the mt command and I was able to use it to get the tape status, rewind and was able to have it move the tape forward a number of records (not sure what a record is) #mt -f /dev/st0 fsr 10 worked. I seem to remember from those days that the brand of tape was critical and that you could use audio tapes (DAT). I even tried od to see if I could anything from the drive, no luck. I guess the cartridge is bad. Doug --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From mark at markesystems.com Mon Sep 12 23:33:01 2016 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 21:33:01 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62816F70FBC34FE5A9816CABB36928A7@Daedalus> > I finally managed to pick up a logic analyser for a price I could justify. > It is a HP1630G and it comes with a number of pods. However the pods do > not > seem to have the actual wires/probes. Is there a separate part number for > these that I should look for. There seem to be quite a few items like > this: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291753390848, are these likely to be suitable > alternatives? Sign seen on an HP logic analyzer at a local swap meet: HP 1630G Logic Analyzer: $10 Complete set of probes: $500 ~~ Mark Moulding From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Sep 12 23:34:46 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:34:46 -0500 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: <62816F70FBC34FE5A9816CABB36928A7@Daedalus> References: <62816F70FBC34FE5A9816CABB36928A7@Daedalus> Message-ID: <20160913043446.GA27999@lonesome.com> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 09:33:01PM -0700, mark at markesystems.com wrote: > HP 1630G Logic Analyzer: $10 > Complete set of probes: $500 Too true to be truly funny. mcl From george.rachor at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 19:44:58 2016 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 17:44:58 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <39eabe7f-6c0b-556d-29bb-dd6b155f9a1e@bitsavers.org> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <39eabe7f-6c0b-556d-29bb-dd6b155f9a1e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <41EAC1CF-C569-4118-B880-359503F764D3@gmail.com> I remember my wife spending hours playing BUGDOM on it ? George > On Sep 12, 2016, at 1:15 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Put it this way. The product manager for the cube was the first person > I know of who had one as a kleenex dispenser. It was a failed industrial > design experiment that never should have shipped and even he felt that > way. > > > On 9/12/16 11:39 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> They make nice Kleenex dispensers. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> http://www.cultofmac.com/62678/diy-powermac-g4-cube-tissue-dispenser/ >>> >>> >>> >> Why, why, why? sheesh. >> > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 13 01:12:10 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 07:12:10 +0100 Subject: Logic Analyser Advice In-Reply-To: <62816F70FBC34FE5A9816CABB36928A7@Daedalus> References: <62816F70FBC34FE5A9816CABB36928A7@Daedalus> Message-ID: <058301d20d85$c36b8260$4a428720$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > mark at markesystems.com > Sent: 13 September 2016 05:33 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Logic Analyser Advice > > > I finally managed to pick up a logic analyser for a price I could justify. > > It is a HP1630G and it comes with a number of pods. However the pods > > do not seem to have the actual wires/probes. Is there a separate part > > number for these that I should look for. There seem to be quite a few > > items like > > this: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291753390848, are these likely to be > > suitable alternatives? > > Sign seen on an HP logic analyzer at a local swap meet: > > HP 1630G Logic Analyzer: $10 > Complete set of probes: $500 > ~~ I reckon I did enough of the right thing ensuring it had pods, thankfully the connection to the actual probes looks simpler and I am hoping the item I ordered a couple of days ago will work, we will know in a day or so. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 01:35:50 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:35:50 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: On 09/12/2016 02:10 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > And now they have the mac pro which looks like a very elegant > $3,000.00 can of tomato juice. Not much changes. > > Meanwhile, I am on my second mac Mini (third if you count my wife's) > because i really like the mac mini so I probably would have bought > the cube if I had been in the market for a mac at that time. Too new! This past week, I used a beige G3 to recover a pile of 800K Mac floppies. The only one I couldn't read turned out to be a PC formatted 720K disk. After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9, I stuffit-ed the disks up and transfered them to a USB flash drive and sneakernet-ed it over to the Linux box. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 08:19:59 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:19:59 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: On 13 September 2016 at 02:32, Richard Loken wrote: > My Mac Mini has been treated to new modern keyboard purchased at rediculous > expense upon the recommendation of my long time friend G.L.Nerenberg II. > And it says underneath "WASD Model: V2 Type: Cherry MX Green". It is > gloriously noisy! :-) One of the great things about vintage mechanical keyboards is that they can be acquired very cheaply indeed. ;-) > I have an aluminum Apple keyboard in the box this keyboard came out of, > those Apple chicklet keyboard are just plain horrible. They're the best chicklet keyboards out there -- but I agree with you; I really dislike using them. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 13 11:16:42 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 09:16:42 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> On 9/13/16 6:19 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > One of the great things about vintage mechanical keyboards is that > they can be acquired very cheaply indeed. ;-) > This posting must have been trapped in a time warp since 1996 :-) I've been working on archiving documentation and firmware from microprocessor based CRT terminals for a couple of months, since I realized they are disappearing the same way CRT monitors have. Besides the surviving examples looking like they have been stored in a cow barn for 20 years, they (almost) never come with a keyboard if it was detachable. This is bad enough that I've been thinking of building a serial protocol converter for Televideo and Qume terminals for Wyse keyboards, which you can still find for a painful but not absurdly high price. Unfortunately, the guys building new Cherry keyboards fabricate new keytops for Windows extended keyboards, and not ASCII (ie. VT-100 style) or ANSI (VT-220 style) so unless you want to spring the cash to have 500 sets of keytops made, you can't even make a practical replacement. I did do the Snoopy Dance this weekend, though, when I found an Esprit at the flea market for $20. Pics and firmware dumps up on bitsavers under hazeltine/esprit now. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 13 11:19:30 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 09:19:30 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> On 9/12/16 11:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9 As someone else mentioned, Fetch works pretty well. I had just been using Appleshare until I switched to an Intel based server which no longer supports the old protocol. There was a company that sold a package that put the protocol back, but they have gone out of business, so I've been bouncing it through a FreeNAS server, which still works, but AFP support is kinda klunky (never liked AppleDouble very much..) From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Sep 13 11:25:59 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 09:25:59 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <15C3939E-9F1E-452B-AAE5-3F6FC94402A2@nf6x.net> > On Sep 13, 2016, at 09:16, Al Kossow wrote: > > Unfortunately, the guys building new Cherry keyboards fabricate new keytops for > Windows extended keyboards, and not ASCII (ie. VT-100 style) or ANSI (VT-220 style) > so unless you want to spring the cash to have 500 sets of keytops made, you can't > even make a practical replacement. > I've investigated making a custom mechanical keyboard upgrade for my old TRS-80 Color Computers. Custom printing on Cherry MX keycaps is available and somewhat practical for one-off keyboards. The limitation is that you're stuck with the keycap widths available in each row of a sculpted Windows-like keyboard. In the case of the CoCo keyboard I contemplated, I could not exactly match the widths of all of the non-1x1 key caps of the original keyboard, but I was able to come up with an alternate layout that I think would have been serviceable. If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX keyswitches, then you have a lot of freedom. Not full freedom due to limitations of available widths in each row, but still quite a bit. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 13 11:34:27 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 09:34:27 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <15C3939E-9F1E-452B-AAE5-3F6FC94402A2@nf6x.net> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> <15C3939E-9F1E-452B-AAE5-3F6FC94402A2@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 9/13/16 9:25 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX keyswitches, then you have a lot of freedom. True enough. I have even bought some switches and non so great Cherry keyboards to harvest keytops. About 10 WY-30 keyboards in so-so condition showed up for about $7 ea, so i'll probably just go with that, since they seem to be the least desirable (next to WY-50) for the mechanical collectors. Televideo was pretty consistent with their serial keyboard protocol and voltages, Qume.. not at all. I've identified at least 4 different styles of 4-pin connector keyboards using either 12 or 5 volt power. Then, there is ADDS, Hazeltine, Microterm, DG, Freedom, ... From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 11:36:36 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 09:36:36 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sep 13, 2016 9:16 AM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > > I've been working on archiving documentation and firmware from microprocessor > based CRT terminals for a couple of months, since I realized they are disappearing > the same way CRT monitors have. Did you ever get any Motorola EXORterm docs that were mentioned here? http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?44638-Motorola-EXORciser/page4 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 11:44:19 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 09:44:19 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> On 09/13/2016 09:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9 > > As someone else mentioned, Fetch works pretty well. After I'd done the job, I found out that MacSSH is available at SourceForge. What initially stunned me is how any vendor who supplied TCP/IP networking could fail to include ftp and telnet as a standard part of the package, I mean, in addition to every version of *nix supplying it, ftp has been a standard MS offering since MSLANMAN. But clearly, I'll never get used to the Apple Way. I'd mostly run the G3 under OS X 10.4 using XPostFacto, but I don't believe that the combo supports the old 400K and 800K floppy formats. I could have booted the G3 into OS X after I'd done the reading under OS 9.2, but that seemed to be the long way 'round the problem. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Sep 13 11:51:54 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 12:51:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > What initially stunned me is how any vendor who supplied TCP/IP > networking could fail to include ftp and telnet as a standard part of > the package, [...] That was my reaction when I found Raspbian (the Debian variant a Pi 3 that $WORK bought came with) lacked telnet. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 13 11:52:17 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 09:52:17 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5489cd94-0ded-3876-0c17-24f4be39b803@bitsavers.org> It may have gotten lost in the pre-move chaos. I just pinged him about it again. On 9/13/16 9:36 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sep 13, 2016 9:16 AM, "Al Kossow" wrote: >> >> I've been working on archiving documentation and firmware from > microprocessor >> based CRT terminals for a couple of months, since I realized they are > disappearing >> the same way CRT monitors have. > > Did you ever get any Motorola EXORterm docs that were mentioned here? > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?44638-Motorola-EXORciser/page4 > From ryan at hack.net Tue Sep 13 11:53:32 2016 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 11:53:32 -0500 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> On 9/13/16 11:51 AM, Mouse wrote: >> What initially stunned me is how any vendor who supplied TCP/IP >> networking could fail to include ftp and telnet as a standard part of >> the package, [...] > That was my reaction when I found Raspbian (the Debian variant a Pi 3 > that $WORK bought came with) lacked telnet. See Also RedHat and CentOS. No telnet, netstat, etc. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 13 11:58:58 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 09:58:58 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <65055b4a-afdd-0173-1a9c-5eec2a4a35fb@bitsavers.org> On 9/13/16 9:44 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd mostly run the G3 under OS X 10.4 using XPostFacto, but I don't > believe that the combo supports the old 400K and 800K floppy formats. I > could have booted the G3 into OS X after I'd done the reading under OS > 9.2, but that seemed to be the long way 'round the problem. > yea.. another project. Getting an Apple 20 pin drive working with a flux transition reader. I would be very surprised if much effort was put into making floppies work under OS X Apple was dragged kicking and screaming into the TCP world. The one example that directly involved me was I asked them to support NTP internally on the engineering network, so I didn't have to set the clock constantly (I had a prototype machine with an RTC that ran fast). Around 1997 at the peak of the "dark times" an email (which was FINALLY SMTP and not some stupidity like AppleLink) went out that there was no budget to maintain the NTP server any more. Fortunately, the NeXT purchase of Apple happened, the people that groked Unix came in, and that bit of stupidity was killed. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 13 12:00:53 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 10:00:53 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> Message-ID: On 9/13/16 9:53 AM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > See Also RedHat and CentOS. No telnet, netstat, etc. csh though in the modern world I can see why clear text protocols aren't shipped out of the box From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 13 12:25:51 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 10:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Sep 13, 16 09:19:30 am" Message-ID: <201609131725.u8DHPpU423331330@floodgap.com> > > After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9 > > As someone else mentioned, Fetch works pretty well. > > I had just been using Appleshare until I switched to an Intel based > server which no longer supports the old protocol. I keep a Sawtooth G4 running 10.4 for file server tasks. It talks to almost anything on the network. However, the LocalTalk machines have to talk to the NetBSD IIci, which still runs an old enough NetBSD where the old AppleTalk protocols work properly (over a Dayna EtherPrint-T), and NFSes to whatever mount it needs to "mirror." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Whatever it is, I'm against it. -- Groucho Marx ---------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 12:31:32 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 19:31:32 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> Message-ID: On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > See Also RedHat and CentOS. No telnet, netstat, etc. My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me fired from Red Hat. Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin were quicker to imitate. Also see merging /bin + /sbin + /usr/bin + /usr/sbin into one and other such steps. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 12:32:08 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 19:32:08 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 13 September 2016 at 18:51, Mouse wrote: > That was my reaction when I found Raspbian (the Debian variant a Pi 3 > that $WORK bought came with) lacked telnet. Because it's insecure. OpenSSH is the recommendation these days. But if you need it, it's trivial to add it back. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 12:33:22 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 19:33:22 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <65055b4a-afdd-0173-1a9c-5eec2a4a35fb@bitsavers.org> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <65055b4a-afdd-0173-1a9c-5eec2a4a35fb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 13 September 2016 at 18:58, Al Kossow wrote: > I would be very surprised if much effort was put into making floppies work > under OS X As far as I know, legacy floppies on a SWIM or whatever are not and never have been supported at all. However, USB floppies work fine -- but only for standard disk formats. You can't read/write old Mac 400/800kB disks in 'em. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 12:35:58 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 19:35:58 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 13 September 2016 at 18:16, Al Kossow wrote: > This posting must have been trapped in a time warp since 1996 :-) Well, it's true, I was amassing collection since then. I have, I think, enough Apple, IBM and DEC keyboards to last my lifetime. I tried to adapt to the Sun layout -- as evangelised by my friend Stephane Tsacas, who I met via this list -- mainly for a giggle. There is stuff to like about it, but for me, the feel of the switches is more important than the layout. I favour the classic DEC/IBM layout -- with a Compose key -- but I'm happy enough on laptop keyboards, too. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 12:43:25 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 10:43:25 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <65055b4a-afdd-0173-1a9c-5eec2a4a35fb@bitsavers.org> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <65055b4a-afdd-0173-1a9c-5eec2a4a35fb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 09/13/2016 09:58 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > yea.. another project. Getting an Apple 20 pin drive working with a > flux transition reader. Not that much of an issue--after all, the old CopyIIPC deluxe option board came with a bunch of 400K/800K Mac utilities and uses standard drives. I might have used that, but the system was buried at the bottom of a pile and I wanted to preserve the Apple file structure as much as was possible, not translate it into MS-DOS. > The one example that directly involved me was I asked them to support > NTP internally on the engineering network, so I didn't have to set > the clock constantly (I had a prototype machine with an RTC that ran > fast). Around 1997 at the peak of the "dark times" an email (which > was FINALLY SMTP and not some stupidity like AppleLink) went out that > there was no budget to maintain the NTP server any more. Fortunately, > the NeXT purchase of Apple happened, the people that groked Unix came > in, and that bit of stupidity was killed. Heh, the first message that I got after I changed the PRAM battery and booted MacOS was that the system time didn't match the NTP time within reasonable limits. But there the oddity hit--if I wanted to get rid of the message, I had to open the Control Panel and manually set the time to something close to NTP--Mac OS did not offer to do it for me. --Chuck From ryan at hack.net Tue Sep 13 12:44:39 2016 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 12:44:39 -0500 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> Message-ID: <7f90be63-e7a3-e1b5-2428-3cfb42839d2c@hack.net> On 9/13/16 12:31 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: >> See Also RedHat and CentOS. No telnet, netstat, etc. > My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me > fired from Red Hat. > > Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff > from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and > move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever > -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin > were quicker to imitate. > Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure? (Maybe a case could be made for traceroute) These types of changes to the core of userland are epic dumb IMHO. Telnet is very useful for debugging, and certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 12:50:52 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 10:50:52 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> Message-ID: On 09/13/2016 10:31 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff > from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme > and move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, > whatever -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and > its kin were quicker to imitate. Well, the packages *should* be available for installation, if desired. There are various back doors to linux-embedded appliances (mostly using BusyBox) that employ telnet and ftp and they're not likely to implement ssh. OpenBSD is probably the most draconian in this respect. They don't offer an optional ftpd/telnetd in any package. If you want a cleartext server, you have to find the source, modify and re-compile it yourself. But what I originally stated still holds. Perhaps you don't have plain-text ftp and telnet, but you have the ssh equivalents, so at least you have *something* to get the job done. Mac OS gave me nothing for doing standard stuff over TCP/IP connections. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 13:12:26 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 20:12:26 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> Message-ID: On 13 September 2016 at 19:50, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But what I originally stated still holds. Perhaps you don't have > plain-text ftp and telnet, but you have the ssh equivalents, so at least > you have *something* to get the job done. Mac OS gave me nothing for > doing standard stuff over TCP/IP connections. OK, but are we talking MacOS or Mac OS X here? If classic MacOS, no, probably not, but there were tons of 3rd party tools, many of them free or shareware. In the Classic era, TCP/IP was a bit of a bolt-on extra on MacOS -- AppleTalk was necessary for most real networking with other Macs. That's why MachTen and so on existed -- to make classic Mac boxes serve up all that weird Unix Internet type stuff. Making 'em /clients/ to it was a bit easier. Similar to TCP's status on Novell Netware 2/3/4, or early VMS, or early IBM mini/mainframe stuff from what I've heard. Even to Windows 3 and WfWg. That was the era of proprietary protocols, and every vendor had their own. First, gradually, TCP/IP got added, often as a token gesture with severe caveats and restrictions. Later versions of most of them integrated it properly, then in subsequent versions, the proprietary-protocol support gradually got ripped out. In the late '80s or early-mid '90s, to me, TCP was the Unix protocol, and since I didn't use much Unix, it was an alien outcast in a world of AppleTalk, NetBEUI, IPX/SPX and DECnet. Most of my work involved getting Windows to talk several of these at once so it could both talk to other Windows boxes and to some alien kit at the same time... early on, ideally while still having enough memory to do anything useful. TCP didn't figure at all until post-'96, when the WWW suddenly started to be something people wanted. For the next 5y or so, my networks ran NetBEUI or IPX for workstation-workstation and workstation-server comms, and TCP just to talk to the proxy/email server and thus to the outside world. By the early noughties, Smoothwall came in and made Windows proxy servers a thing of the past. Around the same time my clients started switching to broadband, and soon, I ripped out all the proprietary protocols. Soon after, Mac OS X did the same. By about 2005 or so most things were pure TCP. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Sep 13 13:13:33 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> Message-ID: <201609131813.OAA20652@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> See Also RedHat and CentOS. No telnet, netstat, etc. > csh Possibly. I find sh more usable than stock csh, though shells are almost as personal an issue as keyboards or editors. > though in the modern world I can see why clear text protocols aren't > shipped out of the box If you think of telnet, the program, as strictly an interface to telnet, the remote login protocol, then I can see how you might think it reasonable to drop it. But telnet-the-program hasn't been just that for...decades, at the very least. Every telnet I can recall, clear back to the days (circa 4.2BSD) when my wetware memory isn't reliable any longer, accepted a port number and was extremely useful for dealing with any of various possible networking issues. To name three real uses I've made of it recently: to check what a remote sshd banners as, to check what an RFB server banners as, and (in conjunction with script(1) to capture the output of a one-off server set up to transfer a text file (this being the use case I had for it on the Pi 3). netstat, that's a completely different issue. There's no "clear text protocol" issue there. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 13:17:01 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 20:17:01 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <7f90be63-e7a3-e1b5-2428-3cfb42839d2c@hack.net> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <7f90be63-e7a3-e1b5-2428-3cfb42839d2c@hack.net> Message-ID: On 13 September 2016 at 19:44, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure? Well, OK, no, not that I know of! > (Maybe a case > could be made for traceroute) Wouldn't know. But AIUI the new ``ip'' command subsumes a lot of this stuff. I'm not very au fait with it but it was high time -- it was due for some rationalisation. > These types of changes to the core of > userland are epic dumb IMHO. Why? Seriously? > Telnet is very useful for debugging, and > certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done. So add it back if you need it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 13 13:23:48 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 11:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <201609131813.OAA20652@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from Mouse at "Sep 13, 16 02:13:33 pm" Message-ID: <201609131823.u8DINmFg63113022@floodgap.com> > >> See Also RedHat and CentOS. No telnet, netstat, etc. > > csh > > Possibly. I find sh more usable than stock csh, though shells are > almost as personal an issue as keyboards or editors. I end up building tcsh on just about any new system I bring up. I've just expected it won't be there. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "have do you a weak flatulence?" -- Babelfish Dutch translation ------------ From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Sep 13 13:24:09 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:24:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> Message-ID: <201609131824.OAA29154@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > But what I originally stated still holds. Perhaps you don't have > plain-text ftp and telnet, but you have the ssh equivalents, There is no ssh equivalent to telnet (the command). It sounds to me as though you are thinking of telnet, the command, as nothing but an interface to telnet, the remote login protocol. That is far from its only use; indeed, these days, that isn't much of a use at all. I can't recall the last time I saw a machine running a telnet daemon even on an isolated intranet. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 13 13:26:27 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 11:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <201609131824.OAA29154@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from Mouse at "Sep 13, 16 02:24:09 pm" Message-ID: <201609131826.u8DIQRxY63113084@floodgap.com> > > But what I originally stated still holds. Perhaps you don't have > > plain-text ftp and telnet, but you have the ssh equivalents, > > There is no ssh equivalent to telnet (the command). It sounds to me as > though you are thinking of telnet, the command, as nothing but an > interface to telnet, the remote login protocol. That is far from its > only use; indeed, these days, that isn't much of a use at all. I can't > recall the last time I saw a machine running a telnet daemon even on an > isolated intranet. Actually, most of my systems on *this* isolated intranet run a telnetd. It's inward facing, of course, but there's no reason for encryption on this network when I'm the sole user. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. -------------------------------- From cliendo at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 13:44:00 2016 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:44:00 -0400 Subject: Telnet was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) Message-ID: Agree. It's quite easy to telnet to a port to see if you get a response. Do it a lot. > Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure? (Maybe a case > could be made for traceroute) These types of changes to the core of > userland are epic dumb IMHO. Telnet is very useful for debugging, and > certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 13:50:28 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 11:50:28 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <201609131826.u8DIQRxY63113084@floodgap.com> References: <201609131826.u8DIQRxY63113084@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4c57ab80-be88-1e39-2ba4-c9330c0815f0@sydex.com> On 09/13/2016 11:26 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Actually, most of my systems on *this* isolated intranet run a > telnetd. It's inward facing, of course, but there's no reason for > encryption on this network when I'm the sole user. Exactly so--I'm interested in communication between local systems used by myself. No need for security. In fact, most of my systems don't use passwords for login. Why? When I'm the only one using them, demanding the use of passwords and encryption is pure insanity. I have enough of a problem remembering the host names of the various boxes. I might as well install cipher locks on all the interior doors of my house. It wouldn't make me one bit more secure--just frustrated with the useless effort. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 13:58:11 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 11:58:11 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> Message-ID: <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> On 09/13/2016 11:12 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > OK, but are we talking MacOS or Mac OS X here? As I said, Mac OS 9.2. I'm not interested for my G3 to talk to other Macs--the only other one here is a Performa 6100 running OS 7.mumble. > That's why MachTen and so on existed -- to make classic Mac boxes > serve up all that weird Unix Internet type stuff. Making 'em /clients/ > to it was a bit easier. But isn't that typical of the Apple Way? Right from the start, there were tools and hardware for the 5150 to talk to the rest of the world. Apple just kept to their own little community--or did I miss the announcement of SDLC/SNA support for Mac? --Chuck From spc at conman.org Tue Sep 13 14:04:28 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:04:28 -0400 Subject: Telnet was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160913190428.GB10133@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Christian Liendo once stated: > Agree. It's quite easy to telnet to a port to see if you get a response. > Do it a lot. The kids are using nc (netcat) these days. It supports both TCP and UDP. -spc From cube1 at charter.net Tue Sep 13 12:55:00 2016 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 12:55:00 -0500 Subject: bitsavers FP11-B schem: M8115-0-01 sheets 1 and 2 missing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2c924fe1-f353-132c-95ec-5938330da2db@charter.net> On 9/10/2016 10:09 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Hi all, > > I?m working on debugging an FP11-B floating point option in a PDP-11/45. I?ve just discovered that in the engineering drawings for this on bitsavers, sheets 1 and 2 of the FRL board prints are missing :-( > > Does anybody have a complete set of FP11-B drawings? I can work around the missing sheets if I have to because sheet 1 is just the IC layout sheet and sheet 2 is probably quite similar to sheet 3, but it sure would be convenient to have the whole set? > > cheers, > ?-FritzM. > > > I have scanned in my (complete) copy. It is available in https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU File is pdf/dec/pdp11/1145/PDP11_FP11-B_Floating-Point_Processor_Engineering_Drawings.zip This zip file contains .tif files of the individual pages, as well as a PDF. (Credit: U. Wisconsin College of Engineering Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, from which these drawings were obtained many many years ago.) JRJ From brendan at bslabs.net Tue Sep 13 14:15:56 2016 From: brendan at bslabs.net (Brendan Shanks) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 12:15:56 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7774F113-35B4-4F86-8633-9D9770D7BDF9@bslabs.net> > On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > But isn't that typical of the Apple Way? Right from the start, there > were tools and hardware for the 5150 to talk to the rest of the world. > Apple just kept to their own little community--or did I miss the > announcement of SDLC/SNA support for Mac? There was SNAps: http://imap.parismoveis.com/index.pl/S0/http/www.thefreelibrary.com/APPLE+SHIPS+SNA.PS+5250+TERMINAL+EMULATOR+FOR+IBM+AS=252F400+SYSTEMS-a013177363 https://books.google.com/books?id=aRQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=apple+snaps+5250&source=bl&ots=hpcJE58XPO&sig=fId5n3iwTp3hYUS6TWlMWmU9kmA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEtuaKho3PAhUP5WMKHeEYDv44ChDoAQhKMAk#v=onepage&q=apple%20snaps%205250&f=false From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Sep 13 14:28:37 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:28:37 -0400 Subject: Custom mechanical keyboard PCB - Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <15C3939E-9F1E-452B-AAE5-3F6FC94402A2@nf6x.net> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> <15C3939E-9F1E-452B-AAE5-3F6FC94402A2@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <77a26c56-ce0b-b0a2-93b4-31ee5215bc20@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-09-13 12:25 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> On Sep 13, 2016, at 09:16, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> Unfortunately, the guys building new Cherry keyboards fabricate new keytops for >> Windows extended keyboards, and not ASCII (ie. VT-100 style) or ANSI (VT-220 style) >> so unless you want to spring the cash to have 500 sets of keytops made, you can't >> even make a practical replacement. >> > > I've investigated making a custom mechanical keyboard upgrade for my old TRS-80 Color Computers. Custom printing on Cherry MX keycaps is available and somewhat practical for one-off keyboards. The limitation is that you're stuck with the keycap widths available in each row of a sculpted Windows-like keyboard. In the case of the CoCo keyboard I contemplated, I could not exactly match the widths of all of the non-1x1 key caps of the original keyboard, but I was able to come up with an alternate layout that I think would have been serviceable. > > If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX keyswitches, then you have a lot of freedom. Not full freedom due to limitations of available widths in each row, but still quite a bit. > Maybe you can get some ideas from this (somewhat tasteless) project? https://hackaday.io/project/13210-the-fsociety-keyboard --Toby From cliendo at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 14:30:00 2016 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:30:00 -0400 Subject: Telnet was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <20160913190428.GB10133@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160913190428.GB10133@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: I am well aware.. However not everything has netcat. But many things have a simple telnet client. On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Christian Liendo once stated: >> Agree. It's quite easy to telnet to a port to see if you get a response. >> Do it a lot. > > The kids are using nc (netcat) these days. It supports both TCP and UDP. > > -spc > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Sep 13 14:41:41 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:41:41 -0400 Subject: No telnet! omg! What do I do? - Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <7f90be63-e7a3-e1b5-2428-3cfb42839d2c@hack.net> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <7f90be63-e7a3-e1b5-2428-3cfb42839d2c@hack.net> Message-ID: <9042b5de-ea73-5e08-8bac-7d40fa1955d3@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-09-13 1:44 PM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > > > On 9/13/16 12:31 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: >>> See Also RedHat and CentOS. No telnet, netstat, etc. >> My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me >> fired from Red Hat. >> >> Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff >> from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and >> move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever >> -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin >> were quicker to imitate. >> > Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure? (Maybe a > case could be made for traceroute) These types of changes to the core > of userland are epic dumb IMHO. Telnet is very useful for debugging, > and certainly dropping telnetd is a good thing - which everyone has done. > > > Boy are you going to get a shock when you start using containers for deployment. --Toby (who doesn't understand why it's such a big deal to install 1 package for telnet client) From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Sep 13 14:43:24 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 12:43:24 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> Message-ID: On 9/13/2016 10:00 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 9/13/16 9:53 AM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > >> See Also RedHat and CentOS. No telnet, netstat, etc. > csh > > though in the modern world I can see why clear text protocols > aren't shipped out of the box They can be added, and it was only after quite a long time of warning that telnet was not a safe protocol as Al says that the steps were taken to remove it. And sshd is removed on a lot of distributions, so that avenue of attack is not present out of the box. It is secure over the net, but if default passwords exist, and sshd is there, and not set up to deny remote logins of certain id's you have as big a problem Of course with the means to create a distro a week, you can create a clone of any distribution with telnet and telnetd any time you like. thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 14:43:35 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 12:43:35 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <7774F113-35B4-4F86-8633-9D9770D7BDF9@bslabs.net> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <7774F113-35B4-4F86-8633-9D9770D7BDF9@bslabs.net> Message-ID: <0304f5e4-efaf-b094-b5e8-f7417e005ea8@sydex.com> On 09/13/2016 12:15 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote: > There was SNAps: > > http://imap.parismoveis.com/index.pl/S0/http/www.thefreelibrary.com/APPLE+SHIPS+SNA.PS+5250+TERMINAL+EMULATOR+FOR+IBM+AS=252F400+SYSTEMS-a013177363 > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=aRQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=apple+snaps+5250&source=bl&ots=hpcJE58XPO&sig=fId5n3iwTp3hYUS6TWlMWmU9kmA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEtuaKho3PAhUP5WMKHeEYDv44ChDoAQhKMAk#v=onepage&q=apple%20snaps%205250&f=false And it only took them until 1993! While it happened, it goes to my point that non-Apple connectivity has always gotten short shrift. --Chuck From ryan at hack.net Tue Sep 13 14:45:47 2016 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:45:47 -0500 Subject: No telnet! omg! What do I do? - Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <9042b5de-ea73-5e08-8bac-7d40fa1955d3@telegraphics.com.au> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <7f90be63-e7a3-e1b5-2428-3cfb42839d2c@hack.net> <9042b5de-ea73-5e08-8bac-7d40fa1955d3@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > Boy are you going to get a shock when you start using containers for > deployment. > > --Toby > > (who doesn't understand why it's such a big deal to install 1 package > for telnet client) > > I get that none of thius applies to modern devops, but sometimes crap goes wrong, or you're working on a host (RHEL w/ KVM is compelling) for a shop that would go looking for tupperware if you mentioned a container. From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 13 14:55:33 2016 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:55:33 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Sep 2016, Kyle Owen wrote: > Glad some folks got a kick out of it enough to try it out! Feel free to > suggest improvements where you see fit. I was thinking about adding support > to read keystrokes from a file for macro programmability...but that might > be too absurd even for this project. Maybe the HP-41C simulator is next... > :) > I tried the new version of your program with option STRT8=1 First PAL8 complained about "IFNZER". PAL8 wants "IFNZRO"! After changing this, assambly was successfull, and I could start the program on the straight-8. All seemed to be ok, with the exception, that sine (keyboard I) and roll (keyboard L) do not work with your new version. These keys are just ignored. Same behaviour on my 8/E, no difference to the straight-8. Another issue: your BSWSUB has still the bug, that DCA BSWTMP SNL CMA DCA BSWLNK CLL / THIS MUST BE! the CLL is missing. Without this, the bit 0 on entry of this routine is inverted, when the link is set on entry. Remember, the link is not a carry! Next question: my hp35 has 36 keys. The 36th key is not accessible for normal users. It's hidden below the "ENTER" key. What does this key do? If I remember right, it's a kind of debug-key. I believe it shifts the whole register including exponent and signs digit by digit to the left. Klemens -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Sep 13 15:05:03 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 13:05:03 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <0304f5e4-efaf-b094-b5e8-f7417e005ea8@sydex.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <7774F113-35B4-4F86-8633-9D9770D7BDF9@bslabs.net> <0304f5e4-efaf-b094-b5e8-f7417e005ea8@sydex.com> Message-ID: <53712B97-8B7F-4436-A393-8BCDE87107BD@eschatologist.net> On Sep 13, 2016, at 12:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 09/13/2016 12:15 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote: > >> There was SNAps: > > And it only took them until 1993! Apple had a package available with SNA support in the late 1980s, along with the NuBus token ring card. I think there was also a DECnet package. And MacTCP was available early on, too. > While it happened, it goes to my point that non-Apple connectivity has > always gotten short shrift. This is pretty much a myth. It was actually not very long after Jobs? ouster that Apple started to work on expandable Macs, integration with other systems, etc. -- Chris From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 15:05:00 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:05:00 -0600 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Klemens Krause wrote: > Next question: my hp35 has 36 keys. The 36th key is not accessible > for normal users. It's hidden below the "ENTER" key. What does this > key do? If I remember right, it's a kind of debug-key. I believe it > shifts the whole register including exponent and signs digit by digit > to the left. The keyboard dispatch is done using a "goto keys" instruction, which replaces the low eight bits of the program counter with a hardware keycode. On the HP-35, the "right half of ENTER" switch doesn't do anything useful. The location it jumps to is just an arbitrary instruction in the code. On the HP-45, the "right half of ENTER" key was carefully planned to be useful to enter the undocumented stopwatch mode, by a STO right-ENTER key sequence. If you put a shim under the right half of the enter key, then STO ENTER will do it. Otherwise you can get it as a phantom key by pressing STO, then a simultaneous press of CHS, 7, and 8. It takes some practice to get that reliably by hand; some people used the "penny trick" to press the three keys together. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 15:29:29 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:29:29 -0400 Subject: FDN303 datasheet References: <201609131725.u8DHPpU423331330@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <13C61ED76EAB4612A3123572314E0953@310e2> By any chance does anyone have (or know where I could find) a datasheet for an FDN303 LSI chip used in a number of floppy drives? Lots of tantalizing links in Google but the ones I followed all lead nowhere... TIA, m From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Tue Sep 13 15:38:14 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:38:14 -0600 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> Message-ID: Vince, This struck me as a pretty clever bit of code. My first cut used 23 words including 2 masks and 3 temporaries. This is the working version of Vince's original. It uses 18 words including 1 mask and 2 temporaries. I have done some edge testing and it appears to work. 30 / THIS VERSION BY VINCE SLYNGSTAD 31 00210 0000 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT 32 00211 3175 DCA SAVEAC 33 00212 7420 SNL /REMEMBER LINK STATE 34 00213 7040 CMA /AS A -1 FOR ISZ TEST 35 00214 3176 DCA SAVEL 36 00215 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED 37 00216 1175 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY 38 00217 0177 AND C7700 / 0 XXX XXX 000 000 39 00220 1175 TAD SAVEAC / X XXX XX0 YYY YYY 40 00221 7006 RTL / X XXX 0YY YYY YXX 41 00222 7006 RTL / X X0Y YYY YYX XXX 42 00223 7006 RTL / 0 YYY YYY XXX XXX 43 00224 2176 ISZ SAVEL /WAS LINK SET? 44 00225 7020 CML /YES, RESTORE LINK 45 00226 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN 46 $ As Klemens Krause points out you do need the CLL (line 36) somewhere before the second TAD SAVEAC or it will flip what was the original leftmost bit (AC 0). I have thought about this a bunch and have come up with an improved version. It also uses 18 words including 2 constants two temporaries. This is one less instruction executed. 32 00210 0000 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT 33 00211 3174 DCA SAVEAC 34 00212 7430 SZL /REMEMBER LINK STATE 35 00213 1177 TAD C0100 /PRE ROTATE LINK POSITION 36 00214 3175 DCA SAVEL 37 00215 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED 38 00216 1174 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY 39 00217 0176 AND C7700 / 0 XXX XXX 000 000 40 00220 1174 TAD SAVEAC / X XXX XX0 YYY YYY 41 00221 1175 TAD SAVEL / X XXX XXL YYY YYY 42 00222 7006 RTL / X XXX LYY YYY YXX 43 00223 7006 RTL / X XLY YYY YYX XXX 44 00224 7006 RTL / L YYY YYY XXX XXX 45 00225 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN Not bad but I realized even more was possible. 31 00210 0000 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT 32 00211 3174 DCA SAVEAC 33 00212 7430 SZL /REMEMBER LINK STATE 34 00213 1176 TAD C0100 /PRE ROTATE LINK POSITION 35 00214 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED 36 00215 1174 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY 37 00216 0175 AND C7700 / 0 XXX XXX 000 000 38 00217 1174 TAD SAVEAC / X XXX XX0 YYY YYY 39 00220 7006 RTL / X XXX LYY YYY YXX 40 00221 7006 RTL / X XLY YYY YYX XXX 41 00222 7006 RTL / L YYY YYY XXX XXX 42 00223 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN I realized I could add in the link with the first TAD and the result is the same so was able to eliminate the DCA SAVEL and the corresponding TAD SAVEL and since SAVEL was not used anymore I got rid of that as well. This is 15 words long which includes the two constants and the one temporary. I think the only way you could do this faster would be to use a whole field as a lookup table but that uses a lot more space. 48 00227 0000 BSWT1, .-. 49 00230 3175 DCA SAVEAC 50 00231 6271 CDF 070 /ASSUME LOOKUP TABLE IS ON PAGE 7 51 00232 1575 TAD I SAVEAC 52 00233 6201 CDF 000 /RESTORE DATA FIELD 53 00234 5627 JMP I BSWT1 /RETURN Something like that anyway. Thanks for an interesting bit of optimization! Doug On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 6:07 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Kyle Owen: Thursday, September 08, 2016 3:53 PM > >> How does the following compare to your BSWEMU, by the way? This ensures >> that the link bit remains untouched, which may or may not be important in >> every case of BSW in my application. >> > > I'm sure I've seen some code before that does this, but I can't seem to >> find any now that I'm looking for it. Maybe there's a shorter way. I think >> this takes 23 words if you include the (0100), (7700), and (0077), which >> may or may not also be used elsewhere in the first page where I put this >> subroutine. >> > > Here's my slightly optimized version, for what it's worth: > 1 *400 > 2 / > 3 / BSW emulation > 4 / > 5 00400 0000 bsw, .-. > 6 00401 3216 dca saveac / Save AC > 7 00402 7630 szl cla / Link set? > 8 00403 7140 cll cma / Yes, remember it > 9 00404 3217 dca savel > 10 00405 1216 tad saveac / Get 0 xxx xxx yyy yyy > 11 00406 0220 and c7700 > 12 00407 1216 tad saveac / x xx xxx0 yyy yyy > 13 00410 7006 rtl > 14 00411 7006 rtl > 15 00412 7006 rtl / 0 yyy yyy xxx xxx > 16 00413 2217 isz savel / Was link set? > 17 00414 7020 cml / Yes, restore it > 18 00415 5600 jmp i bsw / return > 19 00416 0000 saveac, .-. > 20 00417 0000 savel, .-. > 21 00420 7700 c7700, 7700 > 22 $ > > There is a fair chance that each of saveac, savel, and c7700 can be reused > elsewhere. > > Some assemblers flag the "(" construct when used on page 0, BTW. It's > more correct > to use "[" there (or to avoid both). > > I'm a "family of 8" guy, so I avoid using BSW to begin with. > > Vince > -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 14:58:16 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:58:16 -0400 Subject: Seeking docs and schematic for Novation CAT modem Message-ID: Hi, All, Good seeing many of you at VCF-midwest. One of my scores was an Atari-badged Novation CAT modem. Digging around for any docs, what I'm mostly finding is lots of info about Novations Apple II products, and scant mention with thumbnail pictures of the original CAT acoustic coupler, that and dozens of sites copying the Wikipedia article. Anyone have any CAT info? I can reverse-engineer the schematic, but if that's already been done, no reason for me to redocument the wheel. I know it wants a 20VAC 400mA PSU, but I want to check how strict that is (i.e., 18VAC @ 500mA or 24 VAC @ 350 mA, for example, which may be easier to find than an unregulated 20VAC PSU). I would love to play with a CBM 8010 (since I have so many PETs) but I do happen to have a couple of IEEE-488 to RS-232 devices, which will work fine with this Atari 830/Novation CAT. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 16:55:31 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:55:31 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <53712B97-8B7F-4436-A393-8BCDE87107BD@eschatologist.net> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <7774F113-35B4-4F86-8633-9D9770D7BDF9@bslabs.net> <0304f5e4-efaf-b094-b5e8-f7417e005ea8@sydex.com> <53712B97-8B7F-4436-A393-8BCDE87107BD@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 09/13/2016 01:05 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > Apple had a package available with SNA support in the late 1980s, > along with the NuBus token ring card. I think there was also a DECnet > package. And MacTCP was available early on, too. Does bisync and HASP, does it? --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 13 17:06:04 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:06:04 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <7774F113-35B4-4F86-8633-9D9770D7BDF9@bslabs.net> <0304f5e4-efaf-b094-b5e8-f7417e005ea8@sydex.com> <53712B97-8B7F-4436-A393-8BCDE87107BD@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: There were nubus IRMA cards for 3270 fans http://www.ebay.com/itm/290443334905 and the Apple Cluster Controller http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/brochures/Apple_Cluster_Controller_and_Appleline_Sales_Reference_Guide_Jul84.pdf I'm sure these were checkbox items. There was a push in the late 80's buy the Networking and Communications group for better connectivity, mainly to get penetration into corporations. On 9/13/16 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does bisync and HASP, does it? > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Sep 13 17:08:08 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:08:08 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <7774F113-35B4-4F86-8633-9D9770D7BDF9@bslabs.net> <0304f5e4-efaf-b094-b5e8-f7417e005ea8@sydex.com> <53712B97-8B7F-4436-A393-8BCDE87107BD@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 9/13/2016 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 09/13/2016 01:05 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > > > >> Apple had a package available with SNA support in the late 1980s, >> along with the NuBus token ring card. I think there was also a DECnet >> package. And MacTCP was available early on, too. > Does bisync and HASP, does it? > > --Chuck Those would not have been much use. If they could do IND$FILE uploading and downloading that was usually what a connected device needed to do. The bisync required either a dedicated comm program of some sort, and HASP was usually a shared resource. I don't think Apple though of much money to be made doing the server type functions of either of those. There is also the LU stuff that went on on SNA, which is a big steaming pile, and very few ever got that to work other than IBM. In the case where I worked on a project with it, the IBM side was never made to work. thanks Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 13 17:13:21 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:13:21 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <7774F113-35B4-4F86-8633-9D9770D7BDF9@bslabs.net> <0304f5e4-efaf-b094-b5e8-f7417e005ea8@sydex.com> <53712B97-8B7F-4436-A393-8BCDE87107BD@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <0b4dc015-38ae-b822-81c5-a36b20911827@bitsavers.org> On 9/13/16 3:08 PM, jim stephens wrote: > There is also the LU stuff that went on on SNA, which is a big steaming pile, and very few ever got that to work other > than IBM. I worked with the guy who did the Nubus token ring card. He originally used the TI chip set, then had to switch to IBM's because TI's didn't work thanks to undocumented stuff in IBM's implementation. Apple's LU 6.2 was no fun at all. Like you said, a lot of sunk costs for very few sales. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 13 17:29:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:29:02 -0700 Subject: FDN303 datasheet In-Reply-To: <13C61ED76EAB4612A3123572314E0953@310e2> References: <201609131725.u8DHPpU423331330@floodgap.com> <13C61ED76EAB4612A3123572314E0953@310e2> Message-ID: <04b378fd-1dfb-a68d-9363-78a688371220@bitsavers.org> On 9/13/16 1:29 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > By any chance does anyone have (or know where I could find) a datasheet for an FDN303 LSI chip used in a number of floppy drives? > > Lots of tantalizing links in Google but the ones I followed all lead nowhere... > you're going to have a really tough time finding tech data for any Japanese ASIC it looks like it is a Panasonic part (most of the hits on FDN303 are for the Fairchild smt part) used in an NEC FD1231H about the only thing I see are mods for using them on Amigas From fast79ta at yahoo.com Tue Sep 13 17:31:54 2016 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe Piche) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:31:54 -0600 Subject: Seeking docs and schematic for Novation CAT modem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52d30a04-9ecf-c124-2447-e2ea67b6c713@yahoo.com> On 9/13/2016 1:58 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > Good seeing many of you at VCF-midwest. One of my scores was an > Atari-badged Novation CAT modem. Digging around for any docs, what > I'm mostly finding is lots of info about Novations Apple II products, > and scant mention with thumbnail pictures of the original CAT acoustic > coupler, that and dozens of sites copying the Wikipedia article. > > Anyone have any CAT info? I can reverse-engineer the schematic, but > if that's already been done, no reason for me to redocument the wheel. > I know it wants a 20VAC 400mA PSU, but I want to check how strict that > is (i.e., 18VAC @ 500mA or 24 VAC @ 350 mA, for example, which may be > easier to find than an unregulated 20VAC PSU). > > I would love to play with a CBM 8010 (since I have so many PETs) but I > do happen to have a couple of IEEE-488 to RS-232 devices, which will > work fine with this Atari 830/Novation CAT. > > -ethan I have the manual for a 103/212 smart cat modem. PN 490418-1/490521-1. Circa 1982 Is that what you need? Cheers, Joe From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Sep 13 17:48:00 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 00:48:00 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> Message-ID: <1473806880.3371.7.camel@agj.net> tis 2016-09-13 klockan 19:31 +0200 skrev Liam Proven: > On 13 September 2016 at 18:53, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > > See Also RedHat and CentOS. No telnet, netstat, etc. > > My lack of fannish enthusiasm for the RH family of Linuxes got me > fired from Red Hat. > > Nonetheless, their willingness to remove old, insecure legacy stuff > from the OS so that users are encouraged to get with the programme and > move on to modern modern equivalents -- ssh, the ip command, whatever > -- is something I strongly approve of, and wish Debian and its kin > were quicker to imitate. > > Also see merging /bin + /sbin + /usr/bin + /usr/sbin into one and > other such steps. > I dislike very much the removal of perl from the default install. The rather temperamental behaviour of anaconda when working with kickstart files is ... unsatisfying. So is the behaviour when doing interactive installs against a virtual machine (vmware server as host), temperamental to say the least. The trouble was with the geometry of the screen and the selected graphical chip. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Sep 13 18:00:52 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 01:00:52 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <65055b4a-afdd-0173-1a9c-5eec2a4a35fb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1473807652.3371.12.camel@agj.net> tis 2016-09-13 klockan 10:43 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis: > > Heh, the first message that I got after I changed the PRAM battery and > booted MacOS was that the system time didn't match the NTP time within > reasonable limits. But there the oddity hit--if I wanted to get rid of > the message, I had to open the Control Panel and manually set the time > to something close to NTP--Mac OS did not offer to do it for me. > Which is how it is done in Linux today - if the system clock is to much off ntpd won't touch it. What would happen if the selected ntp server which ntpd wants is cracked and intentionally serving false time ? For ntpd it is a security feature that it won't change a system time which is badly out of sync. ntp is intentionally designed so that it will only change system time gradually. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 18:10:39 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 19:10:39 -0400 Subject: FDN303 datasheet References: <201609131725.u8DHPpU423331330@floodgap.com> <13C61ED76EAB4612A3123572314E0953@310e2> <04b378fd-1dfb-a68d-9363-78a688371220@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 6:29 PM Subject: Re: FDN303 datasheet > > > On 9/13/16 1:29 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> By any chance does anyone have (or know where I could find) a datasheet for an FDN303 LSI chip used in a number of floppy drives? >> >> Lots of tantalizing links in Google but the ones I followed all lead nowhere... >> > > you're going to have a really tough time finding tech data for any Japanese ASIC ======== So I've found... ;-) ======== > it looks like it is a Panasonic part (most of the hits on FDN303 are for the Fairchild smt part) > used in an NEC FD1231H > > about the only thing I see are mods for using them on Amigas ======== I should have said the links lead nowhere that's relevant... As a matter of fact I am playing with some NEC FD1231T's, trying to modify them for 8" emulation (1.2MB mode); I had read some of the Amiga mod articles and they were a little help although they don't address the speed issue and the DC on pin 2 mod doesn't apply. Fortunately I found the NEC's motor speed control is labelled on the inside of the motor, so maybe I've got enough info to make it work. That also tells me the speed control pin of the FDN303 (pin 38) which may come in handy on other drives. It'd still be nice to have a datasheet though. Thanks, Al! m From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 18:11:39 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:11:39 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <0b4dc015-38ae-b822-81c5-a36b20911827@bitsavers.org> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <7774F113-35B4-4F86-8633-9D9770D7BDF9@bslabs.net> <0304f5e4-efaf-b094-b5e8-f7417e005ea8@sydex.com> <53712B97-8B7F-4436-A393-8BCDE87107BD@eschatologist.net> <0b4dc015-38ae-b822-81c5-a36b20911827@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 09/13/2016 03:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Like you said, a lot of sunk costs for very few sales. Around 1984, we leased a VAX 11/750 running BSD with the understanding from the lessor that the desired configuration was to support HASP via a Bell 209 modem and leased-line. We got the leased line, the modem connected fine, but the promised BSD software didn't work. Berkeley Systems was called in and they couldn't get it to work either. Eventually, I think we just hooked up a 5160 with the necessary support. --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 18:30:04 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 19:30:04 -0400 Subject: Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> <15C3939E-9F1E-452B-AAE5-3F6FC94402A2@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <36604C59D1E842F68BF8713688D47B2C@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 12:34 PM Subject: Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) > > > On 9/13/16 9:25 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> If you are not opposed to making a custom PCB to stuff with Cherry MX keyswitches, then you have a lot of freedom. > > True enough. I have even bought some switches and non so great Cherry keyboards to harvest keytops. > About 10 WY-30 keyboards in so-so condition showed up for about $7 ea, so i'll probably just go with > that, since they seem to be the least desirable (next to WY-50) for the mechanical collectors. > > Televideo was pretty consistent with their serial keyboard protocol and voltages, Qume.. not at all. > I've identified at least 4 different styles of 4-pin connector keyboards using either 12 or 5 volt power. > > Then, there is ADDS, Hazeltine, Microterm, DG, Freedom, ... > =========================== How about Falco? I've got four or five different models/versions here; do you want me to dump the ROMs? Doesn't seem to be much interest in Falcos but I guess I really should scan the docs one day anyway.. They also used 4-conductor (straight-through) phone-type coiled cords, but with non-contact inductive 'keyswitches' that move a little ferrite core between pads on the PCB; no rotted foam or bad contacts ;-) m From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 18:30:29 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 18:30:29 -0500 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Klemens Krause < krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > > First PAL8 complained about "IFNZER". PAL8 wants "IFNZRO"! > After changing this, assambly was successfull, and I could start the > program on the straight-8. All seemed to be ok, with the exception, > that sine (keyboard I) and roll (keyboard L) do not work with your > new version. These keys are just ignored. > Same behaviour on my 8/E, no difference to the straight-8. > Huh, palbart understands both IFNZER and IFNZRO, so I'll fix it to use the latter. The keys were updated for the HP-35 and HP-45 to be more intuitive for the commonly-used functions, 'S' and 'R' are now sine and roll, which were formerly store and recall. Store and recall are now '<' and '>', respectively. Look in the code for the key lookup table; I have an ASCII table of keys arranged in the HP-35/45 keyboard pattern. Both the HP-35 only and HP-35/45 versions use the same keyboard code. Another issue: your BSWSUB has still the bug, that > DCA BSWTMP > SNL > CMA > DCA BSWLNK > CLL / THIS MUST BE! > > the CLL is missing. Without this, the bit 0 on entry of this routine > is inverted, when the link is set on entry. > Remember, the link is not a carry! > Hmm. Sounds like I need some more complicated test vectors! Either that or the link is never set prior to entry, which I doubt. I'll look at adding Doug's new code to the mix. Nice work, Doug! Next question: my hp35 has 36 keys. The 36th key is not accessible > for normal users. It's hidden below the "ENTER" key. What does this > key do? If I remember right, it's a kind of debug-key. I believe it > shifts the whole register including exponent and signs digit by digit > to the left. Sounds like Eric has answered your question, but no, this simulator doesn't support the extra button without changing one line of code; I can add that as an option if interested for the HP-45 portion, but I'd think the stopwatch mode serves zero purpose on this simulator, as it would never run anywhere close to the accurate time anyways. Kyle From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 13 18:41:18 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:41:18 -0700 Subject: Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: <36604C59D1E842F68BF8713688D47B2C@310e2> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> <15C3939E-9F1E-452B-AAE5-3F6FC94402A2@nf6x.net> <36604C59D1E842F68BF8713688D47B2C@310e2> Message-ID: On 9/13/16 4:30 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > How about Falco? I've got four or five different models/versions here; do you want me to dump the ROMs? Doesn't seem to be much interest in Falcos but I guess I really should scan the docs one day anyway.. > > They also used 4-conductor (straight-through) phone-type coiled cords, but with non-contact inductive 'keyswitches' that move a little ferrite core between pads on the PCB; no rotted foam or bad contacts ;-) > documenting, dumping firmware and taking pictures of the innards would be great! I now have most of the HP 264x series dumped. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 18:40:40 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 01:40:40 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <1473806880.3371.7.camel@agj.net> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <1473806880.3371.7.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On 14 September 2016 at 00:48, Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) wrote: > I dislike very much the removal of perl from the default install. I didn't know about that. It does surprise me. Stupid question: it's not called ``perl5'' or something now, as Perl 6 is *finally* out? > The rather temperamental behaviour of anaconda when working with > kickstart files is ... unsatisfying. Never tried that. > So is the behaviour when doing interactive installs against a virtual > machine (vmware server as host), temperamental to say the least. The > trouble was with the geometry of the screen and the selected graphical > chip. I have found CentOS a PITA in VMware, I can concur there. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 18:45:57 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 01:45:57 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 13 September 2016 at 20:58, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 09/13/2016 11:12 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> OK, but are we talking MacOS or Mac OS X here? > > As I said, Mac OS 9.2. I'm not interested for my G3 to talk to other > Macs--the only other one here is a Performa 6100 running OS 7.mumble. Ah, I guess I missed that earlier. Sorry. > But isn't that typical of the Apple Way? What I was getting at is that it was typical of _everyone's_ way back in the '80s. Everyone who did a full-stack OS had their own network stack and their own protocol, and it was supported far better than anything else. > Right from the start, there > were tools and hardware for the 5150 to talk to the rest of the world. But it had a whole choice of OSes and most of them didn't include networking at all in the early days, AFAIK. IBM's big iron networking wouldn't have fitted into the RAM of the original PC. Did CP/M-86 have networking? I remember it being an expensive, fiddly add-on for CDOS years later, and not very flexible then. I don't think the UCSD p-System networked at all, and DOS didn't for a long time. Only after the advent of WfWg did MS offer a free network stack for DOS as standard, and even to this day it's not wildly enthusiastic about TCP/IP, although it will do it. If you used Novell Netware Lite or P2P Netware, you got IPX; Pathworks, DECnet; Farallon, AppleTalk; etc. All, as I said, intended to talk to some other proprietary system. Openness? No, we haven't even heard of it. > Apple just kept to their own little community--or did I miss the > announcement of SDLC/SNA support for Mac? As others have said -- yes, it existed, albeit from 3rd party tools. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 18:51:49 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:51:49 -0700 Subject: FDN303 datasheet In-Reply-To: References: <201609131725.u8DHPpU423331330@floodgap.com> <13C61ED76EAB4612A3123572314E0953@310e2> <04b378fd-1dfb-a68d-9363-78a688371220@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <62149640-5cec-0ce6-911e-2457d4a44768@sydex.com> On 09/13/2016 04:10 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > As a matter of fact I am playing with some NEC FD1231T's, trying to > modify them for 8" emulation (1.2MB mode); I had read some of the > Amiga mod articles and they were a little help although they don't > address the speed issue and the DC on pin 2 mod doesn't apply. Save yourself some aggravation and just pick up some Samsung SFD-321B drives--common as dirt, particularly if you're not fussy about the bezel. Easily modified for 360RPM operation--and even has READY as well as DISK CHANGED outputs. --Chuck From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Tue Sep 13 20:00:01 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 18:00:01 -0700 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> Message-ID: <9C00B17D19C741BAA5984C578933C0A3@Vincew7> From: Doug Ingraham: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:38 PM > This struck me as a pretty clever bit of code. My first cut used 23 words > including 2 masks and 3 temporaries. Thanks!! > This is the working version of Vince's original. It uses 18 words > including 1 mask and 2 temporaries. > I have done some edge testing and it appears to work. > > 30 / THIS VERSION BY VINCE SLYNGSTAD > 31 00210 0000 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT > 32 00211 3175 DCA SAVEAC > 33 00212 7420 SNL /REMEMBER LINK STATE > 34 00213 7040 CMA /AS A -1 FOR ISZ TEST > 35 00214 3176 DCA SAVEL > 36 00215 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED Ok, I just don't see why one should need to clear link here. > 37 00216 1175 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY > 38 00217 0177 AND C7700 / 0 XXX XXX 000 000 These two lines, the comment would have "L" instead of their first "0". > 39 00220 1175 TAD SAVEAC / X XXX XX0 YYY YYY Poof! There goes the prior value of link! And the "0" in the comment is correct. > 40 00221 7006 RTL / X XXX 0YY YYY YXX > 41 00222 7006 RTL / X X0Y YYY YYX XXX > 42 00223 7006 RTL / 0 YYY YYY XXX XXX > 43 00224 2176 ISZ SAVEL /WAS LINK SET? > 44 00225 7020 CML /YES, RESTORE LINK > 45 00226 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN > 46 $ > > > As Klemens Krause points out you do need the CLL (line 36) somewhere before > the second TAD SAVEAC or it will flip > what was the original leftmost bit (AC 0). Someone help me understand this claim. > I have thought about this a bunch and have come up with an improved > version. It also uses 18 words including 2 constants > two temporaries. This is one less instruction executed. > > 32 00210 0000 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT > 33 00211 3174 DCA SAVEAC > 34 00212 7430 SZL /REMEMBER LINK STATE > 35 00213 1177 TAD C0100 /PRE ROTATE LINK POSITION > 36 00214 3175 DCA SAVEL > 37 00215 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED > 38 00216 1174 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY > 39 00217 0176 AND C7700 / 0 XXX XXX 000 000 > 40 00220 1174 TAD SAVEAC / X XXX XX0 YYY YYY > 41 00221 1175 TAD SAVEL / X XXX XXL YYY YYY > 42 00222 7006 RTL / X XXX LYY YYY YXX > 43 00223 7006 RTL / X XLY YYY YYX XXX > 44 00224 7006 RTL / L YYY YYY XXX XXX > 45 00225 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN > > Not bad but I realized even more was possible. > > 31 00210 0000 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT > 32 00211 3174 DCA SAVEAC > 33 00212 7430 SZL /REMEMBER LINK STATE > 34 00213 1176 TAD C0100 /PRE ROTATE LINK POSITION > 35 00214 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED > 36 00215 1174 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY > 37 00216 0175 AND C7700 / 0 XXX XXX 000 000 > 38 00217 1174 TAD SAVEAC / X XXX XX0 YYY YYY > 39 00220 7006 RTL / X XXX LYY YYY YXX > 40 00221 7006 RTL / X XLY YYY YYX XXX > 41 00222 7006 RTL / L YYY YYY XXX XXX > 42 00223 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN Nice! Vince From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 20:00:27 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:00:27 -0400 Subject: Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <2085d616-c773-ef41-5e67-22f478eaad21@bitsavers.org> <15C3939E-9F1E-452B-AAE5-3F6FC94402A2@nf6x.net> <36604C59D1E842F68BF8713688D47B2C@310e2> Message-ID: <6F1608675FFC44269C892878475494FF@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 7:41 PM Subject: Re: Terminal ROMs/kbds (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) > > > On 9/13/16 4:30 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> How about Falco? I've got four or five different models/versions here; do you want me to dump the ROMs? Doesn't seem to be much interest in Falcos but I guess I really should scan the docs one day anyway.. >> >> They also used 4-conductor (straight-through) phone-type coiled cords, but with non-contact inductive 'keyswitches' that move a little ferrite core between pads on the PCB; no rotted foam or bad contacts ;-) >> > > documenting, dumping firmware and taking pictures of the innards would be great! > > I now have most of the HP 264x series dumped. > ============================== As a matter of fact I think one of them in fact emulates an HP 264-something-or-other. Some models were also used in some DEC shops as cheap VT100 and VT220 clones. Don't hold your breath, but it's on the list... m From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 20:01:42 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:01:42 -0400 Subject: FDN303 datasheet References: <201609131725.u8DHPpU423331330@floodgap.com> <13C61ED76EAB4612A3123572314E0953@310e2> <04b378fd-1dfb-a68d-9363-78a688371220@bitsavers.org> <62149640-5cec-0ce6-911e-2457d4a44768@sydex.com> Message-ID: <329F62667632448EAFEC2D631C0E3BDA@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 7:51 PM Subject: Re: FDN303 datasheet > On 09/13/2016 04:10 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> As a matter of fact I am playing with some NEC FD1231T's, trying to >> modify them for 8" emulation (1.2MB mode); I had read some of the >> Amiga mod articles and they were a little help although they don't >> address the speed issue and the DC on pin 2 mod doesn't apply. > > Save yourself some aggravation and just pick up some Samsung SFD-321B > drives--common as dirt, particularly if you're not fussy about the > bezel. Easily modified for 360RPM operation--and even has READY as > well as DISK CHANGED outputs. > > --Chuck ======================= Yeah Chuck, that Samsung is definitely one of the easiest to mod for 8" emulation and documentation is actually available; as a matter of fact I think I'm the one who first suggested it to you when you were looking some long time ago since some of us Cromemco users had been using them for a while. But the bezel layout is a little critical here; the drives have to fit into slimline 1 1/8" x 5 7/8" 5.25" drive bays/adapters like Compaq used in some of their servers and portables (although they're actually going into a Commodore PET), and the NECs are indeed out of a couple of Compaq servers. I could probably kludge the oval eject button and whatever else needed to make another drive fit, but I wanted to play around with modding other drives for 8" emulation anyway while I was at it. I think I may have enough to make them work, but thanks for returning the tip ;-) m From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 20:08:19 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 18:08:19 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 09/13/2016 04:45 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Did CP/M-86 have networking? I remember it being an expensive, fiddly > add-on for CDOS years later, and not very flexible then. I don't think > the UCSD p-System networked at all, and DOS didn't for a long time. > Only after the advent of WfWg did MS offer a free network stack for > DOS as standard, and even to this day it's not wildly enthusiastic > about TCP/IP, although it will do it. If you used Novell Netware Lite > or P2P Netware, you got IPX; Pathworks, DECnet; Farallon, AppleTalk; > etc. > CP/Net. I don't know if Novell ever deployed their RS-422 networking with CP/M-86 however. There were networking packages for the PC early on. Remember Banyan? They date from 1985. Corvus? Even Datapoint had an ARCnet facility for PCs in 1984. Quite a few vendors had 802.3 capability. Networking, however disorganized, was a very hot thing by 1987. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 20:12:14 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 18:12:14 -0700 Subject: FDN303 datasheet In-Reply-To: <329F62667632448EAFEC2D631C0E3BDA@310e2> References: <201609131725.u8DHPpU423331330@floodgap.com> <13C61ED76EAB4612A3123572314E0953@310e2> <04b378fd-1dfb-a68d-9363-78a688371220@bitsavers.org> <62149640-5cec-0ce6-911e-2457d4a44768@sydex.com> <329F62667632448EAFEC2D631C0E3BDA@310e2> Message-ID: <216290a3-0544-8929-7740-61b278b52407@sydex.com> On 09/13/2016 06:01 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > I could probably kludge the oval eject button and whatever else > needed to make another drive fit, but I wanted to play around with > modding other drives for 8" emulation anyway while I was at it. > > I think I may have enough to make them work, but thanks for returning > the tip ;-) Well, I probably have one of the NEC drives in my stash, so if you get stuck, I'll willing to put my own drive under the soldering iron. Most of the NEC drives that I've seen are capable of 3-mode operation, however they try to hide it. Same for most Teac high-density drives. --Chuck From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Tue Sep 13 20:16:36 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 18:16:36 -0700 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <9C00B17D19C741BAA5984C578933C0A3@Vincew7> References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> <9C00B17D19C741BAA5984C578933C0A3@Vincew7> Message-ID: From: Vincent Slyngstad: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 6:00 PM > Poof! There goes the prior value of link! And the "0" in the comment > is correct. Never mind. I finally see what Klemens and others were trying to tell me about the need for CLL. Vince From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 21:12:17 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:12:17 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Code Optimization (was Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8) Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > > Thanks for an interesting bit of optimization! Need some more optimization fun? :) Vince and I were working on some code to add two signed 12 bit numbers and detect overflow, returning MAX_INT or MIN_INT in AC in the case of overflow, or the sum in AC otherwise. Here's what Vince came up with so far: CHKOVF, 0 TAD OVFA /GET A TAD OVFB /ADD B DCA OVFSUM /SAVE IT TAD OVFA /A XOR B AND OVFB CMA IAC TAD OVFA TAD OVFB SPA CLA /IF SIGNS DIFFER... JMP NOPROB /WE'RE DONE TAD OVFA /MIGHT BE OVERFLOW, A XOR SUM AND OVFSUM CMA IAC TAD OVFA TAD OVFSUM SMA /DID WE OVERFLOW (DIFFERENT SIGNS)? JMP NOPROB /NO, NO PROBLEM CLA CLL CMA RAR /YES, AC=3777 (MAX INT) DCA OVFSUM /SAVE IT TAD OVFA /GET THE SIGN OF CORRECT RESULT SPA CLA /SHOULD IT BE NEGATIVE? ISZ OVFSUM /YES, 3777 -> 4000 (MIN INT) NOPROB, CLA /GET CORRECTED SUM TAD OVFSUM JMP I CHKOVF /OUTTA HERE OVFA, 0 OVFB, 0 OVFSUM, 0 This tests the signs of both numbers; if they differ, there's no chance of overflow. If they're the same, it checks the signs of the augend with the sum; if they differ, an overflow occurred, and MAX_INT or MIN_INT will be returned depending on the sign of the augend. We tried clever tricks previously, using SNL/SZL and SMA/SPA after shifting the sign of the augend into the link and keeping the addend in the AC, but found these to be longer. Kyle From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Tue Sep 13 22:02:46 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:02:46 -0600 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> <9C00B17D19C741BAA5984C578933C0A3@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Vincent Slyngstad: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 6:00 PM > >> Poof! There goes the prior value of link! And the "0" in the comment is >> correct. >> > > Never mind. I finally see what Klemens and others were trying to tell me > about the need for CLL. > > Vince > > My first test case would fail without the CLL BSW=JMS I BSWIND *0170 C7700, 7700 BSWIND, BSWI *0200 CLA CLL CML /CLEAR AC AND SET LINK TAD C7700 / AC <- 7700 BSW /AFTER THIS AC SHOULD BE 0077 HLT /LOOK AT THE PRETTY LIGHTS BSWI, .-. I believe this returns 0037 instead of 0077 if the CLL is left out of the code, but I believe you figured this out. I've been trying to come up with a way to reorder this but without success. I am going to have Warren look at it as he has a twisted mind and sometimes sees things I miss. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Sep 13 18:08:31 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:08:31 -0700 Subject: bitsavers FP11-B schem: M8115-0-01 sheets 1 and 2 missing? In-Reply-To: <2c924fe1-f353-132c-95ec-5938330da2db@charter.net> References: <2c924fe1-f353-132c-95ec-5938330da2db@charter.net> Message-ID: > On Sep 13, 2016, at 10:55 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > On 9/10/2016 10:09 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > >> Does anybody have a complete set of FP11-B drawings? > > I have scanned in my (complete) copy. It is available in > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU Awesome ? thank you very much! ?FritzM. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Sep 14 02:29:30 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 09:29:30 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <7f90be63-e7a3-e1b5-2428-3cfb42839d2c@hack.net> References: <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <7f90be63-e7a3-e1b5-2428-3cfb42839d2c@hack.net> Message-ID: <20160914072930.GA30575@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 12:44:39PM -0500, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: [...] > Are ifconfig, netstat, traceroute, et al really insecure? No, they're "legacy", i.e. do not support DeadRat's aims of creating an inscrutable proprietary platform where one is more or less compelled to buy a support contract to be able to use it. Never mind that trying to get their alleged "support" to actually fix anything is like pissing into the wind. Their Perl packages are particularly awful and not fit for purpose. Debian adopting systemd was what finally pushed me over the edge into the BSD camp. The rot had been setting in for years before that, though. From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Sep 14 07:17:20 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 05:17:20 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 Code Optimization (was Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D3903351194486088D9BD59DA9156DF@Vincew7> From: Kyle Owen: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 7:12 PM > TAD OVFA /A XOR B > AND OVFB > CMA IAC > TAD OVFA > TAD OVFB Sigh. There seems to be an issue with my implementation of XOR. Before the CMA IAC there needs to be CLL RAL, to reposition the carries before subtracting them. Both XORs are affected. Since all we are interested in is the sign of the XOR results, only some of the sums end up wrong. Mostly where both operands are negative; there will be a carry out of the sign bit when we add them together. Kyle: I wrote to code to exhaustively enumerate the operand space, and some Perl to generate "correct" answers. Wrote the results to simulated paper tape. With the modification described, the 250Mb result files match. Good thing that paper tape was a simulated one :-). Vince From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Sep 14 07:41:11 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 07:41:11 -0500 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <20160914072930.GA30575@mooli.org.uk> References: <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <7f90be63-e7a3-e1b5-2428-3cfb42839d2c@hack.net> <20160914072930.GA30575@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20160914124111.GC32707@lonesome.com> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 09:29:30AM +0200, Peter Corlett wrote: > Never mind that trying to get their alleged "support" to actually fix > anything is like pissing into the wind. As opposed to major vendors such as Microsoft and Oracle? ;-) mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Sep 14 07:45:33 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 07:45:33 -0500 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <1473806880.3371.7.camel@agj.net> References: <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <1473806880.3371.7.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <20160914124532.GD32707@lonesome.com> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:48:00AM +0200, Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) wrote: > I dislike very much the removal of perl from the default install. Yeah, well ... about that :-( I understand the reasoning behind it. At one time FreeBSD had perl in the base. The problem was the support cycle. At some point you had a supported release that you had to keep going with an unsupported perl -- the perl development moves that much faster. The argument over "what is in the default install" continues within FreeBSD to this day, as I'm sure it does in every software project. There's no perfect solution. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Sep 14 07:52:01 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 07:52:01 -0500 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <1473806880.3371.7.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <20160914125201.GE32707@lonesome.com> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 01:40:40AM +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > Stupid question: it's not called ``perl5'' or something now, as Perl 6 > is *finally* out? About a zillion lines of software expect it to be called "perl". And perl6 has been imminent for ... some time. FreeBSD shows 5394 ports listed in the "perl5" category, approximately a dozen of which reference perl6 in their names. In other words, I'll believe it when I see it :-) There's an awful lot of intertia behind perl5. mcl From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Sep 14 08:27:28 2016 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 15:27:28 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Doug Ingraham wrote: > > Not bad but I realized even more was possible. > > > 31 00210 0000 BSWI, .-. /ENTRY POINT > 32 00211 3174 DCA SAVEAC > 33 00212 7430 SZL /REMEMBER LINK STATE > 34 00213 1176 TAD C0100 /PRE ROTATE LINK POSITION > 35 00214 7100 CLL /NEED THE LINK CLEARED > 36 00215 1174 TAD SAVEAC /GET 0 XXX XXX YYY YYY > 37 00216 0175 AND C7700 / 0 XXX XXX 000 000 > 38 00217 1174 TAD SAVEAC / X XXX XX0 YYY YYY > 39 00220 7006 RTL / X XXX LYY YYY YXX > 40 00221 7006 RTL / X XLY YYY YYX XXX > 41 00222 7006 RTL / L YYY YYY XXX XXX > 42 00223 5610 JMP I BSWI /RETURN > > I realized I could add in the link with the first TAD and the result is the > same so was able to eliminate the DCA SAVEL and Nice idea, I needed some time to understand whats going on. Application of the commutativity of addition: PREROTLINK + XXXXXX + XXXXXX = XXXXXX + XXXXXX + PREROTLINK :-) I found the next simplification: BSWI, 0 DCA SAVEAC RTR / MOVE LINK TO THE PREROTATE POSITION RTR / ELIMINATE C0100 RTR / LINK IS CLEARED BECAUSE AC WAS 0 AFTER DCA TAD SAVEAC AND C7700 TAD SAVEAC RTL RTL RTL JMP I BSWI SAVEAC,0 C7700, 7700 Statistically, if 50% link is set, and 50% link is not set both versions have identical speed, but one constant is eliminated. > Doug Ingraham > PDP-8 SN 1175 > Klemens PDP-8 SN 768 -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 08:50:44 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 15:50:44 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 14 September 2016 at 03:08, Chuck Guzis wrote: > CP/Net. I don't know if Novell ever deployed their RS-422 networking > with CP/M-86 however. > > There were networking packages for the PC early on. Remember Banyan? > They date from 1985. Corvus? Even Datapoint had an ARCnet facility for > PCs in 1984. Quite a few vendors had 802.3 capability. Networking, > however disorganized, was a very hot thing by 1987. This is quite interesting in terms of an Europe/NorAm divide. I entered the business in 1988. After 25y in support, working on thousands of systems in half a dozen countries, from 2-man outfits to multi-billion-dollar multinationals, no, I never ever saw any systems whatsoever running: * Banyan VINES * Corvus * ARCnet * LittleBigLAN * The $25 Network (Obviously, I've heard of them.) To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use. However, I routinely worked with: * 3Com 3+Share * Sage MainLAN * Personal Netware * Netware Lite * DEC Pathworks Most of these never seem to get mentioned in Stateside comms. Odd. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 08:59:14 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 15:59:14 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 14 September 2016 at 15:50, Liam Proven wrote: > To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use. A typo, I presume? NFS, as in Network File System? Used, for example, everywhere where Sun boxes were installed, for our (European) company that would be from around 1989 and onwards (and we were a bit late with Sun), and it's going strong, although (almost) without Sun boxes. And common with NAS, of course. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 14 09:20:32 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 15:20:32 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 Code Optimization (was Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f16d87c-9dbf-00c6-3583-c015d8b1ab0a@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/09/2016 03:12, Kyle Owen wrote: > Need some more optimization fun? :) Vince and I were working on some code > to add two signed 12 bit numbers and detect overflow, returning MAX_INT or > MIN_INT in AC in the case of overflow, or the sum in AC otherwise. Here's > what Vince came up with so far: > > [ 29 words, 25 instructions, 13 instructions if obviously no overflow] OK, here's my take on it. Not a huge saving, but 27 words, 23 instructions, 11 if no obvious overflow: chkovf, 0 / entry point, stores return address TAD ovfa / get first number TAD ovfb / add the second DCA ovfsum / save result TAD ovfa / get first number again RAL / save its sign bit CLA RAR / now just the first sign bit in AC (and L=0) TAD ovfb / add the second number, see if sign changes SPA CLA / if result is positive, both were the same sign JMP done / different signs, must be OK / both were same sign, so check for overflow (AC=0) TAD ovfsum / get the addition result RAL / save its sign bit CLA RAR / now just the sign bit in AC, and L=0 TAD ovfa / add one of the operands, see if the sign changes SMA CLA / if now negative, sign is different from operands JMP done / positive = no overflow, no problem, done / fix for cases of overflow CLA CLL CMA RAR / make 3777 (MAX INT) DCA ovfsum / and save it TAD ovfa / get the sign of correct result SPA CLA / should it be negative? ISZ ovfsum / if yes, 3777 -> 4000 (MIN INT) CLA / really a NOP done, TAD ovfsum / get the result JMP I chkovf / fast return if all OK ovfa, 0 ovfb, 0 ovfsum, 0 -- Pete Pete Turnbull From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 09:51:04 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:51:04 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 14 September 2016 at 15:59, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 14 September 2016 at 15:50, Liam Proven wrote: > >> To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use. > > A typo, I presume? NFS, as in Network File System? > > Used, for example, everywhere where Sun boxes were installed, for our > (European) company that would be from around 1989 and onwards (and we > were a bit late with Sun), and it's going strong, although (almost) > without Sun boxes. And common with NAS, of course. No typo. As far as I know, working in tech since 1988, I have never ever seen it used. All Unix types assume that it is very common. In mixed environments -- which means more or less every one I've ever worked in -- it isn't. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 14 09:42:54 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 15:42:54 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 Code Optimization (was Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <0D3903351194486088D9BD59DA9156DF@Vincew7> References: <0D3903351194486088D9BD59DA9156DF@Vincew7> Message-ID: On 14/09/2016 13:17, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Kyle Owen: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 7:12 PM >> TAD OVFA /A XOR B >> AND OVFB >> CMA IAC >> TAD OVFA >> TAD OVFB > > Sigh. > > There seems to be an issue with my implementation of XOR. > Before the CMA IAC there needs to be CLL RAL, to reposition the carries > before subtracting them. Both XORs are affected. Yes, the usual way is just what you describe: A + B - (2 * A AND B), which works by calculating the bitwise carries and subtracting them from the addition, to make it carryless. The AND tells you where they result from but you have to shift them to the correct positions before taking the difference. You were missing the multiply x 2 (which needs the CLL first). Easily missed. But unless I've missed something, you don't need a complete XOR, you just need to check the sign bits. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From js at cimmeri.com Wed Sep 14 10:56:56 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:56:56 -0500 Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> On 9/14/2016 8:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 14 September 2016 at 03:08, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> There were networking packages for the PC early on. Remember Banyan? They date from 1985. Corvus? Even Datapoint had an ARCnet facility for PCs in 1984. Quite a few vendors had 802.3 capability. Networking, however disorganized, was a very hot thing by 1987. > > This is quite interesting in terms of an Europe/NorAm divide. > > I entered the business in 1988. After 25y in support, working on > thousands of systems in half a dozen countries, from 2-man outfits to > multi-billion-dollar multinationals, no, I never ever saw any systems > whatsoever running: > * Banyan VINES > * Corvus > * ARCnet > * LittleBigLAN > * The $25 Network > > (Obviously, I've heard of them.) > > To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use. > > However, I routinely worked with: > * 3Com 3+Share > * Sage MainLAN > * Personal Netware > * Netware Lite > * DEC Pathworks > > Most of these never seem to get mentioned in Stateside comms. > > Odd. > I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region, USA), same number and types of places. Just to compare: * Banyan VINES (never saw) * Corvus (saw once) * ARCnet (saw many times) * LittleBigLAN (never heard of or saw) * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw) * NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards) (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere) * 3Com 3+Share (saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard) * Sage MainLAN (never heard of) * Personl Netware (never saw) * Netware Lite (never saw) * DEC Pathworks (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS) Most frequently worked with: * Netware 3.x& 4.x * Lantastic * Windows / Microsoft - J. From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Sep 14 11:02:15 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 09:02:15 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 Code Optimization (was Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <5f16d87c-9dbf-00c6-3583-c015d8b1ab0a@dunnington.plus.com> References: <5f16d87c-9dbf-00c6-3583-c015d8b1ab0a@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <032814CBBEB340A3A6EE6D72207D56DF@Vincew7> From: Pete Turnbull: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 7:20 AM > ISZ ovfsum / if yes, 3777 -> 4000 (MIN INT) > CLA / really a NOP You should be able to remove the CLA, as that ISZ won't skip and the AC is already clear. Yours is definitely better, I think, as the XOR business didn't help the readability either. Vince From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 11:04:52 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 12:04:52 -0400 Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 11:56 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region, > USA), same number and types of places. Just to compare: > > * Banyan VINES (never saw) > * Corvus (saw once) > * ARCnet (saw many times) > * LittleBigLAN (never heard of or saw) > * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw) > * NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards) > (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere) > > * 3Com 3+Share (saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard) > * Sage MainLAN (never heard of) > * Personl Netware (never saw) > * Netware Lite (never saw) > * DEC Pathworks (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS) > > Most frequently worked with: > * Netware 3.x& 4.x > * Lantastic > * Windows / Microsoft > > - J. > > > Also a mid-Atlantic alumni... I started the networking portion of my career in 1987, working at IBM. Part of my job was to set up Token Ring Network for sales demos (college intern). Also Hypercard related networking was big in the late 80's. Dd a lot of TCP/IP networking starting in 1992 or so. Bill From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 11:13:29 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 18:13:29 +0200 Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 14 September 2016 at 17:56, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region, > USA), same number and types of places. Just to compare: > > * Banyan VINES (never saw) > * Corvus (saw once) > * ARCnet (saw many times) I honestly don't know what cabling SAGE MainLAN used. It may have been related. D9 connectors, about 4Mb/s speed? > * LittleBigLAN (never heard of or saw) > * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw) Odd... They were sold in the UK as being American imports... > * NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards) > (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere) I put in a load of Xenix and later some SCO Unix boxes running multiuser accounts, often replacing CCP/M and CDOS systems -- but they were never networked. I never saw CP/M networked in my life. > * 3Com 3+Share (saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard) Weird. Quite a big product in the UK in the '80s. > * Sage MainLAN (never heard of) SAGE -- British accountancy s/w company. US tax law is different; Brits can't use US financial or accounts s/w. Gave an opening for UK players to get big. > * Personl Netware (never saw) Typo for "Personal" of course. Wasn't big here. > * Netware Lite (never saw) Ditto. One of 'em was bundled with Novell DOS 6 or 7. I forget which. That gave it a boost but it was a PITA to configure. Already, by then, people were mainly shipping NDIS drivers for WfWg which _did_ work but in a painful way and wasted a ton of RAM. > * DEC Pathworks (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS) It wasn't big but a lot of VAX users ran it. It bundled a ton of useful stuff from email to X.11 servers, but it was as slow as hell, burned RAM and was a pig to configure. Never played nice with WfWg. > Most frequently worked with: > * Netware 3.x& 4.x 2 and 3 here. 4 was the beginning of the end. It foisted mandatory NDS on a million single-served microbusinesses who had no need for it, and the needless complexity and pain killed the product. Most egregious case of corporate suicide I ever saw. > * Lantastic I forgot that. I think I saw that very occasionally. > * Windows / Microsoft Well, yes. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 14 11:15:50 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:15:50 +0000 Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com>, Message-ID: > > * LittleBigLAN (never heard of or saw) > > * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw) > > Odd... They were sold in the UK as being American imports... Dare I suggest that perhaps they flopped in the states so they tried to flog them to us :-) > I never saw CP/M networked in my life. I've never seen it in operation, but the Gemini Galaxy (somewhat based on the Nascom, with the same bus) had a network option. It was a little board that hung off the parallel connector on the CPU board. The one I have had had all the numbers scratched off the ICs, it took me about 2 minutes to realise that the main 40 pin IC was a dumb UART. The rest of the board was a bit of logic to interface it to the parallel port, a clock generator and RS485 buffers. Wasn't there some kind of network for the RML380Z and 480Z machines? Of course the common network in UK schools in the early 80s was Econet (Acorn's network for the BBC micro, Atom, etc). -tony From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Sep 14 11:24:57 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:24:57 +0000 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> Message-ID: <9D787823-5BF7-4AFA-B86E-412F3C191C4F@swri.edu> Chuck, (circling back a bit) Al recommended Fetch; I concur. It was my long-term favorite, from MacOS 6.0.8 or earlier onward. Apparently, it is still available from the author: https://fetchsoftworks.com/ But licenses are now $29. It is still possible according to the website to get a free license for charitable or educational organizations. It also appears to be possible to download a version for classic back to System 7 (Downloads page) I was *very* satisfied with it back in the day, have not used it since about Mac OS 8.6, possibly 9.1, on my Powerbook 3400. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:35 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > After struggling with trying to find a good ftp facility for OS 9, From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 14 11:37:09 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 09:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Orchid PC-Net Tallgrass From radiotest at juno.com Wed Sep 14 11:52:24 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 12:52:24 -0400 Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160914124533.03ecd358@juno.com> At 11:56 AM 9/14/2016, js wrote: >On 9/14/2016 8:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>On 14 September 2016 at 03:08, Chuck Guzis wrote: Folks - Please do not change the subject line in a thread. The subject line of this thread has been changed twice since it began as "68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use..." When you change a subject line the header information concerning the subject is unchanged, and that is what the list archives and some email clients go by. There are now three threads concerning different subjects archived as one thread at classiccmp.org. If you want to change a subject please start a new thread, and if you wish you can give the new thread a subject line such as "New Subject (was Old Subject)" to reflect its origin. Dale H. Cook, Contract IT Administrator, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 12:05:12 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 13:05:12 -0400 Subject: FDN303 datasheet References: <201609131725.u8DHPpU423331330@floodgap.com> <13C61ED76EAB4612A3123572314E0953@310e2> <04b378fd-1dfb-a68d-9363-78a688371220@bitsavers.org> <62149640-5cec-0ce6-911e-2457d4a44768@sydex.com> <329F62667632448EAFEC2D631C0E3BDA@310e2> <216290a3-0544-8929-7740-61b278b52407@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BC9ECAFE9E44FBCAFDC2197DE1DBDAD@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 9:12 PM Subject: Re: FDN303 datasheet > On 09/13/2016 06:01 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> I could probably kludge the oval eject button and whatever else >> needed to make another drive fit, but I wanted to play around with >> modding other drives for 8" emulation anyway while I was at it. >> >> I think I may have enough to make them work, but thanks for returning >> the tip ;-) > > Well, I probably have one of the NEC drives in my stash, so if you get > stuck, I'll willing to put my own drive under the soldering iron. Most > of the NEC drives that I've seen are capable of 3-mode operation, > however they try to hide it. Same for most Teac high-density drives. > > --Chuck ======================= Thanks very much Chuck but looks like it works. Once I found the speed control line it was a simple matter of cutting that trace, routing a pseudo-ready to pin 34 and adding a 3-pin header for drive 0/1 select. But being a typical anal nerd, it'd still be nice to see a datasheet or at least the functions of the various jumpers... m From js at cimmeri.com Wed Sep 14 12:12:42 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 12:12:42 -0500 Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <57D9850A.1050701@cimmeri.com> On 9/14/2016 11:04 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 11:56 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> >> >> I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region, >> USA), same number and types of places. Just to compare: >> >> * Banyan VINES (never saw) >> * Corvus (saw once) >> * ARCnet (saw many times) >> * LittleBigLAN (never heard of or saw) >> * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw) >> * NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards) >> (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere) >> >> * 3Com 3+Share (saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard) >> * Sage MainLAN (never heard of) >> * Personl Netware (never saw) >> * Netware Lite (never saw) >> * DEC Pathworks (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS) >> >> Most frequently worked with: >> * Netware 3.x& 4.x >> * Lantastic >> * Windows / Microsoft >> >> - J. >> >> >> > Also a mid-Atlantic alumni... > I started the networking portion of my career in 1987, working at IBM. > Part of my job was to set up Token Ring Network for sales demos (college > intern). Also Hypercard related networking was big in the late 80's. Dd > a lot of TCP/IP networking starting in 1992 or so. > Bill Cool. I was a big fan of running Netware over Token Ring. But remember eventually just getting crushed by cheap and easier to install ethernet. One of my main clients at the time was on 4mb Token, and we were asked for a proposal to speed it up. 16mb Token Ring had just come out, and the per-card cost was very high. Another vendor proposed with 10mbit ethernet and stole the client... despite them having to ditch the expensive, genuine IBM 4mb Token setup (whose wiring could have still been used for 16mb) and rewire the place. Still bugs me to this day, which is probably why I'm writing about it now. :-) - J. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 14 12:20:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:20:12 -0700 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <9D787823-5BF7-4AFA-B86E-412F3C191C4F@swri.edu> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <9D787823-5BF7-4AFA-B86E-412F3C191C4F@swri.edu> Message-ID: <2fdc0c32-5bcd-4b7d-6a33-aebbad284c5d@sydex.com> On 09/14/2016 09:24 AM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > (circling back a bit) Al recommended Fetch; I concur. It was my > long-term favorite, from MacOS 6.0.8 or earlier onward. Apparently, > it is still available from the author: Thanks, Mark. I also seem to remember reading about "Transmit": https://download.panic.com/transmit/ However, a USB flash drive turned out to be the simple solution. Thanks, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 14 12:15:16 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 18:15:16 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 Code Optimization (was Re: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <032814CBBEB340A3A6EE6D72207D56DF@Vincew7> References: <5f16d87c-9dbf-00c6-3583-c015d8b1ab0a@dunnington.plus.com> <032814CBBEB340A3A6EE6D72207D56DF@Vincew7> Message-ID: On 14/09/2016 17:02, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 7:20 AM >> ISZ ovfsum / if yes, 3777 -> 4000 (MIN INT) CLA >> / really a NOP > > You should be able to remove the CLA, as that ISZ won't skip Of course! LOL! I must have spent half an hour looking at that section thinking of ways to eliminate one more instruction! > and the AC is already clear. Hence the comment :-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 14 12:38:22 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:38:22 -0700 Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: <57D9850A.1050701@cimmeri.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> <57D9850A.1050701@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Earliest networking? Not telco lines, but hardwired stuff. I recall that in 1974/75 I was making one of my trips to Control Data Arden Hills and noticed a backhoe at work digging a trench around the employee's parking lot in back of the main building. I asked what was going on and was told that Jim Thornton was experimenting with high-speed distance networking by laying a couple of loops of coax around the parking lot. Rumor was that he was aiming for the then-unthinkable speed of 50 Mbit/second. I don't recall the outcome. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 14:21:49 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 13:21:49 -0600 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > See Also RedHat and CentOS. No telnet, netstat, etc. And Fedora (also in RH family). Not having telnet never bothered me because "yum install telnet" (now "dnf install telnet") is obvious enough, but for netstat, ifconfig, and route, you have to install the "net-tools" package. Part of the rationale for not installing net-tools by default is that most users are expected to use the gui NetworkManager to configure their network. The other part is that ifconfig and route are deprecated in favor of the "ip" command, which is installed by default. However, my fingers still are prone typing ifconfig and route. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 15:18:54 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:18:54 -0400 Subject: Linux at 25 Message-ID: Linux at 25 - created 25 years ago. Has it changed computing or is it 'better' than WIN or MacOS? Not really part of classic computing world but nonetheless it can be used today in emulators. ( I use it for ADAM emulating. ) Happy computing! Murray :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 14 15:30:29 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 13:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2016, Murray McCullough wrote: > Linux . . . is it 'better' than WIN or MacOS? Don't you hate rhetorical questions? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 14 15:48:25 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 14:48:25 -0600 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ea3ecd-848e-d9e1-a596-b5cc9c0b8f17@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/14/2016 2:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 14 Sep 2016, Murray McCullough wrote: >> Linux . . . is it 'better' than WIN or MacOS? > > Don't you hate rhetorical questions? > 'ASK IDIOT BEN' A: No. Everybody is point and click. The real American OS is point and shoot. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 14 16:11:16 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 14:11:16 -0700 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: <00ea3ecd-848e-d9e1-a596-b5cc9c0b8f17@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <00ea3ecd-848e-d9e1-a596-b5cc9c0b8f17@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_TfBbR6L0M On 9/14/16 1:48 PM, ben wrote: > 'ASK IDIOT BEN' > From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Sep 14 16:42:07 2016 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 14:42:07 -0700 Subject: Subjects, Topics and Threading Message-ID: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> On 09/14/16 09:52, Dale H. Cook wrote: > > Please do not change the subject line in a thread. The subject line > of this thread has been changed twice since it began as "68K Macs > with MacOS 7.5 still in production use..." When you change a subject > line the header information concerning the subject is unchanged, > and that is what the list archives and some email clients go by. > There are now three threads concerning different subjects archived > as one thread at classiccmp.org. And what's so horrible about that? I miss entire conversations because somebody starts discussing something I *would* find interesting under a misleading Subject: and never changes it. Oh well - people will do what they do, thank goodness for search... How do you justify making everybody conform to your preferred behavior? Even though I did what you wanted in this reply/new topic. ;) But now nobody can see what I didn't quote from your original message without going off and running a search - isn't that annoying too? --S. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 14 16:48:19 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 14:48:19 -0700 Subject: Subjects, Topics and Threading In-Reply-To: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> References: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> Message-ID: <91451d99-e9b8-83e8-e1a9-0b48167041a1@bitsavers.org> On 9/14/16 2:42 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > On 09/14/16 09:52, Dale H. Cook wrote: >> >> Please do not change the subject line in a thread. > And what's so horrible about that? nothing It has taken twenty years to get to the point on cclk where the subject line changes at all. alt.folklore.computers is the extreme example of thread wander. I stop reading a thread after about the fifth post there. I know.. "You still read a.f.c ?" From radiotest at juno.com Wed Sep 14 16:58:30 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 17:58:30 -0400 Subject: Subjects, Topics and Threading In-Reply-To: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> References: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160914175552.03f64928@juno.com> At 05:42 PM 9/14/2016, Steven M Jones wrote: >How do you justify making everybody conform to your preferred behavior? I don't, but the behavior and archiving of this list is bound by the software that it runs under. Dale H. Cook, Contract IT Administrator, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From js at cimmeri.com Wed Sep 14 17:30:07 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 17:30:07 -0500 Subject: Subjects, Topics and Threading In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160914175552.03f64928@juno.com> References: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160914175552.03f64928@juno.com> Message-ID: <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> On 9/14/2016 4:58 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 05:42 PM 9/14/2016, Steven M Jones wrote: > >> How do you justify making everybody conform to your preferred behavior? > I don't, but the behavior and archiving of this list is bound by the software that it runs under. > > Dale H. Cook, Contract IT Administrator, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html I'm the one who last changed the subject of the aforemetioned thread (which is now not this thread). It was my first time renaming a thread, and I'm confused as to what I did wrong. How is sending a new email any different than replying / changing subject line? Thanks, J. From lyndon at orthanc.ca Wed Sep 14 17:41:04 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 15:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subjects, Topics and Threading In-Reply-To: <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> References: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160914175552.03f64928@juno.com> <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > How is sending a new email any different than replying / changing subject > line? A brand-new (not reply) message does not carry the References: header chain from the previous thread. For threading-aware MUAs, this makes sure the new conversation doesn't get buried in the old thread. Or possibly even ignored, as some MUAs can kill/ignore portions of threads based on specific message-ids in the References header. --lyndon From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Sep 14 17:48:28 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 15:48:28 -0700 Subject: Subjects, Topics and Threading In-Reply-To: <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> References: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160914175552.03f64928@juno.com> <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <97a96598-9bad-5495-b61a-dc8d2ccee741@jwsss.com> On 9/14/2016 3:30 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 9/14/2016 4:58 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: >> At 05:42 PM 9/14/2016, Steven M Jones wrote: >> >>> How do you justify making everybody conform to your preferred behavior? >> I don't, but the behavior and archiving of this list is bound by the >> software that it runs under. >> >> Dale H. Cook, Contract IT Administrator, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html > > I'm the one who last changed the subject of the aforemetioned thread > (which is now not this thread). It was my first time renaming a > thread, and I'm confused as to what I did wrong. > > How is sending a new email any different than replying / changing > subject line? > > Thanks, > J Leaving the original subject or a contraction of it is good, unless you start a totally new topic, and copy some bit of the original. Most readers will thread the whole thing together anyway from info in the email headers, so there is no harm in adding a hint as to where the thread branches. Lotus could do hierarchical discussion threads, but this is had no way to surface branches and yet retain the origin. Thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 14 17:57:48 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 15:57:48 -0700 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2148f035-11d0-c5d0-54b0-ae9f94b0c79a@sydex.com> On 09/14/2016 01:18 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > Linux at 25 - created 25 years ago. Has it changed computing or is it > 'better' than WIN or MacOS? Right--I really want Windows or Mac OS running the firmware in my routers and DSL modem... I'll posit that Linux has made a bigger splash not as a desktop environment (which is what mostly distinguishes the many flavors of the thing) but as embedded and server software. I was a bit surprised to find that my home thermostat was running BusyBox. --Chuck From radiotest at juno.com Wed Sep 14 17:55:31 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 18:55:31 -0400 Subject: Subjects, Topics and Threading In-Reply-To: <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> References: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160914175552.03f64928@juno.com> <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160914184128.03f36788@juno.com> At 06:30 PM 9/14/2016, J. wrote: >How is sending a new email any different than replying / changing subject line? The message headers contain data that identify which thread a message is part of. Subscribers normally do not see that data because very few people have a reason to look at the full headers of a message. Replying to an existing thread without changing the subject maintains that data. Replying to an existing thread but changing the subject line also maintains that data, which identifies the reply as part of the original thread. In both cases the message appears in the list archives as part of the original thread. Starting a new thread with a new subject assigns new data identifying the new thread. It appears in the list archives as part of a new thread, independent from the original thread. That is part of the way in which mailing list software, in general, works. Dale H. Cook, Contract IT Administrator, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 14 18:14:52 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: <2148f035-11d0-c5d0-54b0-ae9f94b0c79a@sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Sep 14, 16 03:57:48 pm" Message-ID: <201609142314.u8ENEqFs64161232@floodgap.com> > I was a bit surprised to > find that my home thermostat was running BusyBox. s/surprised/alarmed/ Remember, it's going to be the Internet of Pwned Things before too long. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Po-Ching Lives! ------------------------------------------------------------ From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Sep 14 18:18:10 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:18:10 -0700 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: <201609142314.u8ENEqFs64161232@floodgap.com> References: <201609142314.u8ENEqFs64161232@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 9/14/2016 4:14 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I was a bit surprised to >> find that my home thermostat was running BusyBox. > s/surprised/alarmed/ > > Remember, it's going to be the Internet of Pwned Things before too long. > Busybox is the first big lawsuit over GPL as well, wonder if these folks complied with the various restrictions. thanks jim From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Sep 14 18:28:14 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 23:28:14 +0000 Subject: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED66E6B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Dale H. Cook Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:52 AM > Please do not change the subject line in a thread. The subject line of > this thread has been changed twice since it began as "68K Macs with MacOS > 7.5 still in production use..." When you change a subject line the header > information concerning the subject is unchanged, and that is what the > list archives and some email clients go by. There are now three threads > concerning different subjects archived as one thread at classiccmp.org. > If you want to change a subject please start a new thread, and if you > wish you can give the new thread a subject line such as "New Subject (was > Old Subject)" to reflect its origin. Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to change the subject line, with the old subject in SQUARE BRACKETS with the characters "was: " prepended. Any decent newsreader or threading mail reader knows how to deal with that, and threading is unbroken. What was broken in the messages about which you complain is the substitution of parentheses () for brackets []. See the subject line on this message for an example. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 18:28:58 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 17:28:58 -0600 Subject: Internet of Things (was Re: Linux at 25) Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was a bit surprised to > find that my home thermostat was running BusyBox. Cameron Kaiser wrote: > s/surprised/alarmed/ > Remember, it's going to be the Internet of Pwned Things before too long. Unfortunately most people elide the first two letters of the initialism, leaving only "IoT". It is actually the "Insecure Dangerous Internet of Things". From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 18:32:01 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 17:32:01 -0600 Subject: changing Subject header in thread [was Re: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]] Message-ID: Rich Alderson wrote: > Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to > change the subject line, with the old subject in SQUARE BRACKETS with the > characters "was: " prepended. Any decent newsreader or threading mail > reader knows how to deal with that, and threading is unbroken. What was > broken in the messages about which you complain is the substitution of > parentheses () for brackets []. I had no idea that there was a standard. Is it in an RFC or something? I've commonly seen either parenthesis or square brackets used, and I've normally used parenthesis myself, but if there's a documented standard, I'll consider switching. From lyndon at orthanc.ca Wed Sep 14 18:52:09 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED66E6B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED66E6B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: > Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to > change the subject line, with the old subject in SQUARE BRACKETS with the > characters "was: " prepended. Not the standard, but a convention. The standard is documented in RFC 5322 section 3.6.4 (and dates back to RFC822). This isn't anything new. In the Usenet world, nn and trn made agressive use of these headers to thread discussion chains. Any good MUA will use them as well. Note that in the email world, 'popular' and 'good' are mostly disjoint sets :-( --lyndon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 20:31:39 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 20:31:39 -0500 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: <201609142314.u8ENEqFs64161232@floodgap.com> References: <201609142314.u8ENEqFs64161232@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <57D9F9FB.6090408@gmail.com> On 09/14/2016 06:14 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I was a bit surprised to >> find that my home thermostat was running BusyBox. > > s/surprised/alarmed/ > > Remember, it's going to be the Internet of Pwned Things before too long. Time to rebrand it as NosyBox? :-) From other at oryx.us Wed Sep 14 20:30:57 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 20:30:57 -0500 Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <57D9F9D1.9020607@oryx.us> Banyan Vines - did LOTS of Banyan stuff from the military. Thousands of end users. Great stuff, but Banyan had no more product marketing skills than IBM did with OS/2. The Banyan NOS stuff ran on top of a SysV Release III Unix if I remember correctly. Its been a while. ARCnet - saw some of this, not a lot though ENS StreetTalk - Again from Banyan, IMHO, the first real practical directory service. Even as Banyan Vines (proper) servers were dwindling, we ran StreetTalk on top of Solaris boxes. OS/2 stuff - did more than my fair share of OS/2 stuff. For file shares primarily SMB, but a lot over NFS also. NFS - really surprised from the OP's comments. NFS file shares have been the "bread-N-butter" of files shares for (me) for over 2 decades GOSIP - Anyone remember this? I spent 6 months, 8 hours a day learning intricate details about GOSIP in the mid 1990's. FWIW, this is/was the only networking protocol that actually matches up with the OSI 7 layer model. No, TCP/IP doesn't come anywhere close. Read more here if you are really interested: IBM System 34 & 36 mini's - got my start here. I guess we ultimately all have unique experiences. Unix and (Cisco) core routing and switching has kept a roof over my head since the mid 1990's. I have a number of unique skills that (so far) have kept me employed thru all the bad times in the economy, and to provide the leverage to keep employers from forcing m$ junk on me. Jerry m$ free since '93 On 09/14/16 10:56 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 9/14/2016 8:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 14 September 2016 at 03:08, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> There were networking packages for the PC early on. Remember Banyan? They >>> date from 1985. Corvus? Even Datapoint had an ARCnet facility for PCs in >>> 1984. Quite a few vendors had 802.3 capability. Networking, however >>> disorganized, was a very hot thing by 1987. >> >> This is quite interesting in terms of an Europe/NorAm divide. >> >> I entered the business in 1988. After 25y in support, working on >> thousands of systems in half a dozen countries, from 2-man outfits to >> multi-billion-dollar multinationals, no, I never ever saw any systems >> whatsoever running: >> * Banyan VINES >> * Corvus >> * ARCnet >> * LittleBigLAN >> * The $25 Network >> >> (Obviously, I've heard of them.) >> >> To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use. >> >> However, I routinely worked with: >> * 3Com 3+Share >> * Sage MainLAN >> * Personal Netware >> * Netware Lite >> * DEC Pathworks >> >> Most of these never seem to get mentioned in Stateside comms. >> >> Odd. >> From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Sep 14 20:33:00 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 20:33:00 -0500 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57D9FA4C.5010407@pico-systems.com> On 09/14/2016 03:18 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > Linux at 25 - created 25 years ago. Has it changed computing or is it > 'better' than WIN or MacOS? Not really part of classic computing world > but nonetheless it can be used today in emulators. ( I use it for ADAM > emulating. ) > > I don't want to get into the "better" wars, but I think it definitely HAS changed computing! The Beagle Bone is a total hacker's paradise, the modern equivalent of a PDP-8 and some digital I/O modules that you could hook to whatever you wanted. I've slapped together a number of TCP and web-based special purpose control/interface devices over the years, and the ease of converting a simple program into one that is controllable over the net is great. NIST tried to build their own CNC motion control program in 1995 or so, using a real time version of Windows, and it didn't work (real time latency was laughably bad). Then, they tried it with a real time-patched Linux, and it DID work. This became the EMC project, now known as LinuxCNC. We have no idea how many people are using it, but there are indications there are (at least) several thousand users. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Sep 14 20:36:29 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 20:36:29 -0500 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: <2148f035-11d0-c5d0-54b0-ae9f94b0c79a@sydex.com> References: <2148f035-11d0-c5d0-54b0-ae9f94b0c79a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57D9FB1D.7060702@pico-systems.com> On 09/14/2016 05:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 09/14/2016 01:18 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: >> Linux at 25 - created 25 years ago. Has it changed computing or is it >> 'better' than WIN or MacOS? > Right--I really want Windows or Mac OS running the firmware in my > routers and DSL modem... > > I'll posit that Linux has made a bigger splash not as a desktop > environment (which is what mostly distinguishes the many flavors of the > thing) but as embedded and server software. I was a bit surprised to > find that my home thermostat was running BusyBox. > Oh, yeah, I'm running FreePBX on the computer that manages my home phone system (Linux-based). The PHONES (Snom 300's) run Linux! In fact, I think most VOIP phones have embedded Linux kernels in them. Jon From isking at uw.edu Wed Sep 14 20:36:50 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 18:36:50 -0700 Subject: Subjects, Topics and Threading In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160914184128.03f36788@juno.com> References: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160914175552.03f64928@juno.com> <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160914184128.03f36788@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 06:30 PM 9/14/2016, J. wrote: > > >How is sending a new email any different than replying / changing subject > line? > > The message headers contain data that identify which thread a message is > part of. Subscribers normally do not see that data because very few people > have a reason to look at the full headers of a message. Replying to an > existing thread without changing the subject maintains that data. Replying > to an existing thread but changing the subject line also maintains that > data, which identifies the reply as part of the original thread. In both > cases the message appears in the list archives as part of the original > thread. > > Starting a new thread with a new subject assigns new data identifying the > new thread. It appears in the list archives as part of a new thread, > independent from the original thread. That is part of the way in which > mailing list software, in general, works. > > Oh boy, oh boy! We haven't had a 'mailing-list-behavior' thread in, oh, days! I was getting bored with all the conversation about vintage hardware and software - it was so, well, meaningful. We haven't had a good food-fight here in... days! -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From isking at uw.edu Wed Sep 14 20:40:16 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 18:40:16 -0700 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: References: <201609142314.u8ENEqFs64161232@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 4:18 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 9/14/2016 4:14 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> I was a bit surprised to >>> find that my home thermostat was running BusyBox. >>> >> s/surprised/alarmed/ >> >> Remember, it's going to be the Internet of Pwned Things before too long. >> >> Busybox is the first big lawsuit over GPL as well, wonder if these folks > complied with the various restrictions. > > thanks > jim > > And technology is always better when the lawyers get involved, right? -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 14 21:21:39 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 19:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED66E6B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED66E6B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: > Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to > change the subject line, with the old subject in SQUARE BRACKETS with the > characters "was: " prepended. Any decent newsreader or threading mail > reader knows how to deal with that, and threading is unbroken. What was > broken in the messages about which you complain is the substitution of > parentheses () for brackets []. I have been using parentheses. I was unaware that square brackets was the preferred form. I will try to remember to comply. I have also always used the opening parenthesis, and left off the closing one, since the history of the world drags on forever, and hopefully, eventually the trailing end of that will get truncated before it becomes too many extraneous lines. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Wed Sep 14 22:59:07 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 21:59:07 -0600 Subject: HP-35/45 Simulator for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1DA246D6-3944-4030-9B69-D2C3B11C472E@nf6x.net> <20160905081407.GG3629@Update.UU.SE> <79802E9B0BCD4A81A96C4329058413D0@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Klemens Krause < krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > > I found the next simplification: > > BSWI, 0 > DCA SAVEAC > RTR / MOVE LINK TO THE PREROTATE POSITION > RTR / ELIMINATE C0100 > RTR / LINK IS CLEARED BECAUSE AC WAS 0 AFTER DCA > I had been looking at this section as the last piece of clumsy coding. Your solution is simplicity itself! My ideas were all more complicated and worse than the original. I actually have the three RTR in a note but it was with a SNL and a JMP .+4 around them. I didn't stop to think that I didn't need the test at all. Another idea was to create the constant 0100 so I didn't have to make a constant for it. CLA CLL CML RTR;RTR;RTR. I don't have to explain why I discarded it. Anyway, Great work! I doubt this can be made shorter, but I would really like to be proved wrong. Of course this code is obfuscated to the point that without the comments it would be difficult to understand what it was supposed to do. I recently keyboarded the Maindec that is the part 1 test for the EAE. The guy who coded it appeared to not like doing DCA XXX TAD YYY to take advantage of the fact that the AC is zero. Instead he would do this to load a value into the AC DCA XXX CMA AND YYY This of course does not ever try to touch the Link and so that might have been the goal although the TAD with Zero AC should never mess with the Link either. I found reading this code to be tedious and I want to rewrite the diagnostic in a more sensible manner. This guy had some other really strange coding practices. > -- > > klemens krause > Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de > > -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 23:21:57 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 22:21:57 -0600 Subject: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED66E6B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Not the standard, but a convention. > > The standard is documented in RFC 5322 section 3.6.4 (and dates back to > RFC822). I think you may mean RFC 5322 section 3.6.5, which does give a "MAY" suggestion for the use of "Re: " at the start of the contents of the subject field, but I'm unable to find any mention of the square bracket or "was" convention for subject line changes within a thread anywhere in RFC 5322, RFC 822, or even RFC 733. Aside from the "Re: " convention, all three RFCs describe the Subject field as unstructured text, subject to the line folding rules (defined in RFC 5322 section 2.2.3 "Long Header Fields"). From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Sep 14 23:39:15 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 21:39:15 -0700 Subject: More Weird Stuff Message-ID: <4FC7E0E4-0010-4AC8-BE0C-C880D72EA0A0@eschatologist.net> There were a couple more MIPS workstations (with MIPS property tags) at Weird Stuff a couple days ago. Two 3xxx-series and an R/12. Also a bunch of DEC stuff including a VT240 base and several keyboards. -- Chris Sent from my iPhone From wsudol at scng.com Wed Sep 14 12:45:57 2016 From: wsudol at scng.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:45:57 -0700 Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: <57D9850A.1050701@cimmeri.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> <57D9850A.1050701@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Re: Tacky Ring (what we used to call it) vs Enet. IIRC one of the issues going forward with TR was that it was mostly an IBM design (patented?) and the prices of TR chips available to card manufacturers was pretty high. This was around 1988. I think that the reason for the high cost was that there was not a second source of TR chips available at that time because IBM had control of it and charged a large license fee for the design. They also misjudged the demand. I worked at at a large corporate IBM shop with lots of mainframes and 3270 Terminals. PC's came in grudgingly (IBM PS/2) of course) and we bought Madge and IRMA cards to get them to talk to the IBMs. Everyone thought of the PS/2 as cheaper 3270 replacements. I think a 3270 cost about $6000 each back then. Don't know what the PS/2 cost but it was *much* cheaper. The cards (4 mb) were very expensive (@$500) at that time as was the type-1 cabling needed for connection. When 16 mb came out the cost to upgrade was just too high. Also, the programs that ran on the mainframes started to be ported to smaller systems that ran something else than TR so it was apparent that we didn't actually need to spend millions on IBM mainframes any more. Wayne Sudol Riverside PressEnterprise A DigialFirst Media Newspaper. On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 10:12 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 9/14/2016 11:04 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 11:56 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >> >>> >>> I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region, >>> USA), same number and types of places. Just to compare: >>> >>> * Banyan VINES (never saw) >>> * Corvus (saw once) >>> * ARCnet (saw many times) >>> * LittleBigLAN (never heard of or saw) >>> * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw) >>> * NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards) >>> (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere) >>> >>> * 3Com 3+Share (saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard) >>> * Sage MainLAN (never heard of) >>> * Personl Netware (never saw) >>> * Netware Lite (never saw) >>> * DEC Pathworks (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS) >>> >>> Most frequently worked with: >>> * Netware 3.x& 4.x >>> * Lantastic >>> * Windows / Microsoft >>> >>> - J. >>> >>> >>> >>> Also a mid-Atlantic alumni... >> I started the networking portion of my career in 1987, working at IBM. >> Part of my job was to set up Token Ring Network for sales demos (college >> intern). Also Hypercard related networking was big in the late 80's. Dd >> a lot of TCP/IP networking starting in 1992 or so. >> Bill >> > > Cool. I was a big fan of running Netware over Token Ring. But remember > eventually > just getting crushed by cheap and easier to install ethernet. One of my > main clients at > the time was on 4mb Token, and we were asked for a proposal to speed it up. > 16mb Token Ring had just come out, and the per-card cost was very high. > Another > vendor proposed with 10mbit ethernet and stole the client... despite them > having to > ditch the expensive, genuine IBM 4mb Token setup (whose wiring could have > still > been used for 16mb) and rewire the place. Still bugs me to this day, > which is > probably why I'm writing about it now. :-) > > - J. > From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 17:40:26 2016 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (KnoppixLiveKiller) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 17:40:26 -0500 Subject: Subjects, Topics and Threading In-Reply-To: <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> References: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160914175552.03f64928@juno.com> <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <78cbe4ff-f30c-5080-be43-e8718810636e@gmail.com> On 09/14/2016 05:30 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 9/14/2016 4:58 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: >> At 05:42 PM 9/14/2016, Steven M Jones wrote: >> >>> How do you justify making everybody conform to your preferred behavior? >> I don't, but the behavior and archiving of this list is bound by the >> software that it runs under. >> >> Dale H. Cook, Contract IT Administrator, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html > > I'm the one who last changed the subject of the aforemetioned thread > (which is now not this thread). It was my first time renaming a > thread, and I'm confused as to what I did wrong. > > How is sending a new email any different than replying / changing > subject line? > > Thanks, > J. > > > Is it really that hard to bottom post? -- *Mike's ? Honda ATC 3wheeler? Shop? for LIFE!!!* **Have a blessed day!** From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Sep 15 00:28:03 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 22:28:03 -0700 Subject: Subjects, Topics and Threading In-Reply-To: <78cbe4ff-f30c-5080-be43-e8718810636e@gmail.com> References: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160914175552.03f64928@juno.com> <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> <78cbe4ff-f30c-5080-be43-e8718810636e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d581226-c6e0-af8b-d348-f1825de8aeff@jwsss.com> yes it is. The cursor is at the top of the box with the emails in most readers I've seen, and unless I want to leave a posting long and enter comments thru the body, sometimes top posting works. On 9/14/2016 3:40 PM, KnoppixLiveKiller wrote: >> > Is it really that hard to bottom post? From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 00:32:32 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 00:32:32 -0500 Subject: Tips for getting to CHM from SJC airport without a car? Message-ID: A bit off topic other than tips for anyone else trying to travel cheaply. I have a trip to California in a month although the final destination isn't San Jose. I can fly in to SJC and Google is sounding like I might be able to get a few bus hops from the airport and find my way there? Any tips, tricks or warnings? *(more off-topic below, feel free to stop above for helping anyone venture around to CHM). No idea if I'm testing my luck neighborhood wise and debating taking a bus or train from Mountain view to Pasadena after my free day. Feel free to email me offline if this is too far from list interest. Mostly if anyone was to benefit it would be what's the cheapest route to spend a day at the CHM and then return to the airport again. - John From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Sep 15 00:33:39 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 22:33:39 -0700 Subject: Linux at 25 [lawyers involvement] In-Reply-To: References: <201609142314.u8ENEqFs64161232@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 9/14/2016 6:40 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > >And technology is always better when the lawyers get involved, right? Linux went a long time with no lawsuits that were legally precedent setting. I thought it interesting that the busybox folks were the first ones to raise a fuss. There has always been a tension with the intent of the GPL to force open source and the ways to legally protect works, so the lawyers, etc., are there, since there are lots of people wanting to take advantage. Point about Busybox is that I don't know if anyone else has ever, or is now watching with an intent to litigate. People are entitled to ask for their work whatever they like, or do the BSD thing and let it essentially go (or Apache, don't know whichever is the "free take" license). Usually disputes arise. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Sep 15 00:35:47 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 22:35:47 -0700 Subject: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production] [Posting with brackets] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED66E6B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <75da3ca3-0f5a-afde-ce42-962ea951932d@jwsss.com> On 9/14/2016 7:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I have been using parentheses. I was unaware that square brackets was > the preferred form. I also used brackets, and Balanced Fred's. I didn't see any change in how the threading worked with one bracket, maybe two sets will confuse it too. I've never heard of brackets in any client or server, but willing to try. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 02:30:46 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 09:30:46 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 14 September 2016 at 16:51, Liam Proven wrote: > On 14 September 2016 at 15:59, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> On 14 September 2016 at 15:50, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use. >> >> A typo, I presume? NFS, as in Network File System? >> >> Used, for example, everywhere where Sun boxes were installed, for our >> (European) company that would be from around 1989 and onwards (and we >> were a bit late with Sun), and it's going strong, although (almost) >> without Sun boxes. And common with NAS, of course. > > > No typo. As far as I know, working in tech since 1988, I have never > ever seen it used. > > All Unix types assume that it is very common. In mixed environments -- > which means more or less every one I've ever worked in -- it isn't. I still find it very strange. Back in 1988 was probably when I first got to use a Sun machine, and from 1989 we started using more of them, but it was certainly a mixed environment - it had to be, we had a lot of infrastructure from earlier. It took quite a few years until it was all *nix (and *nux, after a while). The thing is that a Sun machine at the time more often than not didn't have a disk big enough to keep all the software (and other files), and/or the sysadm found it difficult to maintain even a small number of workstations or servers individually. So at that time it was extremely common to have a lot of the software accessible via NFS. In other words, an NFS path was usually part of the computer user's $PATH. So unless there was only a single *nix machine on campus there would be NFS. I saw the same thing in other local companies and in other European countries, e.g. Italy, which I visited extensively back then. Companies would have different environments, but most of them would have a small number of Unix servers and maybe a single workstation, the rest would be terminals. And later Windows PCs. The small number of Unix boxes would in any case always use NFS in one way or another. Back to 2016. In an environment with mixed Unix, Linux and Windows computers, the shared documents are simply made available via NFS for *nix and Samba for Windows. From the same server(s). Been that way forever by now. If there's a single *nix box which needs anything from somewhere else then NFS is the natural choice, mixed environment or not. In any case I'm absolutely certain that as far as NFS is concerned there couldn't and can't possibly be any difference in usage between Europe and the US. I spent so many years travelling between various sites on both sides of the Atlantic pre- and post-2k, and I never noticed anything different there. I actually suspect that you *have* seen NFS in use, you just didn't notice it. A bit like not noticing that the USB stick runs Linux.. which happens. And various other more or less surprising places. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 04:43:35 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:43:35 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 15 September 2016 at 09:30, Tor Arntsen wrote: > I still find it very strange. Yes, that was the point of my post! > So unless there was only a single *nix machine Virtually every *nix deployment I have ever worked upon, yes, the was one, single *nix machine in the site/building/company. Between 2000 and 2005, in most instances, it was an old PC running Smoothwall. It has always been, in my working life, very very rare. One AIX box, ever. One AS/400, ever. One S/36, ever. One PDP-11, ever. I don't think I've ever had a client who had a connect, working Sun workstation. A handful of servers in 1 job, but I never touched them. > Back to 2016. In an environment with mixed Unix, Linux and Windows > computers, the shared documents are simply made available via NFS for > *nix and Samba for Windows. From the same server(s). This might surprise you, but in my own home network, I used Samba for connections from Linux to Linux. It was easier. > In any case I'm absolutely certain that as far as NFS is concerned > there couldn't and can't possibly be any difference in usage between > Europe and the US. I suspect that there can. That in what I am now told are not SMEs after all, but "microbusinesses", the bulk of my career, Sun kit was always just too expensive to be worth it. Windows is utterly, totally dominant, with these days some Macs and a tiny bit of Linux. Linux is usually in niche roles, such as firewalls, web proxies, DNS servers or caches, occasionally as NAS hosts. NFS does not enter into the equation, at all, ever. Obviously -- well, it's obvious to me, but I'm spelling it out because I find that people make assumptions... Obviously, I am not claiming that my experience is universal or general or applies to anyone else. Others will have had different experiences. However, I have had a fairly varied career in IT. I've worked for VARs, for shops, in repair, in systems design, in sysadmin, in 1st, 2nd & 3rd line support, I've done a smattering of development work early on, I've worked in training, I've worked for end users, I've been a consultant, I've been a journalist and an editor and a technical writer. I've worked for software houses, charities, government divisions, multinationals, banks, stockbrokers, investment houses. I've done a lot of stuff over 28 years in IT. And I have never seen NFS in use, anywhere, ever. I guess it figures that the thing I consider massively marginal and niche is the one that provoked the reaction of surprise and disbelief that I was actually looking for and trying to cause. > A bit like not noticing > that the USB stick runs Linux.. which happens. Er. Explain? How can a dumb storage device run any OS? I have various bootable USB sticks around the place, all with Linux on, but they don't _run_ it. I won't touch the "smart Wifi enabled" ones. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From applecorey at optonline.net Thu Sep 15 05:14:02 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 06:14:02 -0400 Subject: Tips for getting to CHM from SJC airport without a car? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A3B2803-6E50-4654-B350-5EC1C15E4BC7@optonline.net> corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Sep 15, 2016, at 1:32 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > > A bit off topic other than tips for anyone else trying to travel cheaply. I > have a trip to California in a month although the final destination isn't > San Jose. > > I can fly in to SJC and Google is sounding like I might be able to get a > few bus hops from the airport and find my way there? Any tips, tricks or > warnings? > > *(more off-topic below, feel free to stop above for helping anyone venture > around to CHM). > No idea if I'm testing my luck neighborhood wise and debating taking a bus > or train from Mountain view to Pasadena after my free day. > > Feel free to email me offline if this is too far from list interest. Mostly > if anyone was to benefit it would be what's the cheapest route to spend a > day at the CHM and then return to the airport again. > > - John Your better off using Uber or lift. Taking a bus might eat up all your time at CHM. An uber or lift if it's not rush hour will only take 20 minutes max to CHM. If you have a little more time and want to save money use Uber pool. Cheers, Corey From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 05:57:21 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 12:57:21 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 15 September 2016 at 11:43, Liam Proven wrote: > On 15 September 2016 at 09:30, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> A bit like not noticing >> that the USB stick runs Linux.. which happens. > > Er. Explain? How can a dumb storage device run any OS? > > I have various bootable USB sticks around the place, all with Linux > on, but they don't _run_ it. I won't touch the "smart Wifi enabled" > ones. Sorry, yes, not the dumbest mass-storage ones, but the slightly smarter ones, e.g. wi-fi enabled sticks and SD cards. I have a couple of those. On the other hand the electronics of even "simple" USB gadgets is getting pretty sophisticated, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if a mass-storage USB stick turns out to actually run an OS. From radiotest at juno.com Thu Sep 15 07:01:44 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:01:44 -0400 Subject: Subjects, Topics and Threading In-Reply-To: <78cbe4ff-f30c-5080-be43-e8718810636e@gmail.com> References: <78ff457f-3788-0b30-d547-38fe0ffdc27d@crash.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160914175552.03f64928@juno.com> <57D9CF6F.9080502@cimmeri.com> <78cbe4ff-f30c-5080-be43-e8718810636e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160915080025.03ed1bb0@juno.com> At 06:40 PM 9/14/2016, KnoppixLiveKiller wrote: >Is it really that hard to bottom post? With that things have gotten really ridiculous, so goodbye for good. Dale H. Cook, Contract IT Administrator, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 07:33:44 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 14:33:44 +0200 Subject: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED66E6B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED66E6B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 15 September 2016 at 01:28, Rich Alderson wrote: > Any decent newsreader or threading mail > reader knows how to deal with that, and threading is unbroken. Would that this were true. Of course, many would say that Gmail is not a decent MUA; however, it's the best for my needs these days. Every subject edit creates a new thread in it, and it's very confusing. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 07:40:19 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 14:40:19 +0200 Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 14 September 2016 at 18:15, tony duell wrote: >> > * LittleBigLAN (never heard of or saw) >> > * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw) >> >> Odd... They were sold in the UK as being American imports... > > Dare I suggest that perhaps they flopped in the states so they > tried to flog them to us :-) I share your cynicism in general on that point, but this was sold for _years_ by, IIRC, a little company called EQ Consultants, IIRC. http://eqc.co.uk/ It was definitely a thing when Ethernet was still too expensive. Here's a mini-review: http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue142/70_Getting_wired.php > I've never seen it in operation, but the Gemini > Galaxy (somewhat based on the Nascom, with > the same bus) had a network option. It was a little > board that hung off the parallel connector on the > CPU board. The one I have had had all the numbers > scratched off the ICs, it took me about 2 minutes > to realise that the main 40 pin IC was a dumb > UART. The rest of the board was a bit of logic > to interface it to the parallel port, a clock > generator and RS485 buffers. Interesting. I heard of it, certainly, but I never knew of anyone who actually used it. > Of course the common network in UK schools > in the early 80s was Econet (Acorn's network > for the BBC micro, Atom, etc). I saw quite a few decommissioned machines with Econet adaptors, and I've seen a demo network set up at a show in the last decade I think, but I don't think I ever saw one in action. I did see IEE-488 in use, both on CBM PETs and BBC Micros, in education -- both for storage and for connecting to lab equipment. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 07:42:23 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 14:42:23 +0200 Subject: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)) In-Reply-To: <57D9850A.1050701@cimmeri.com> References: <3412nmwb4yagi72yp3jrcvqx.1473661436839@email.android.com> <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <23da3122-b9d8-575b-4532-44735c1cd643@sydex.com> <57D97348.8050209@cimmeri.com> <57D9850A.1050701@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On 14 September 2016 at 19:12, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Cool. I was a big fan of running Netware over Token Ring. But remember > eventually > just getting crushed by cheap and easier to install ethernet. One of my > main clients at > the time was on 4mb Token, and we were asked for a proposal to speed it up. > 16mb Token Ring had just come out, and the per-card cost was very high. > Another > vendor proposed with 10mbit ethernet and stole the client... despite them > having to > ditch the expensive, genuine IBM 4mb Token setup (whose wiring could have > still > been used for 16mb) and rewire the place. Still bugs me to this day, which > is > probably why I'm writing about it now. :-) I saw a few "BrokenString" deployments, but it always was very expensive, relatively speaking, and except on very heavily-loaded networks, it was slower, so even at the turn of the '90s, in my world, it was being replaced by Ethernet unless IBM big iron connectivity was required. I've also, just the once, removed an ATM network adaptor from a desktop PC. Never saw it in real life, but that client had just returned from Singapore where their home broadband was delivered over ATM. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 15 08:46:20 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 06:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED66E6B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED66E6B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: >> If you want to change a subject please start a new thread, and if you >> wish you can give the new thread a subject line such as "New Subject (was >> Old Subject)" to reflect its origin. > > Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to *grabs popcorn* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 15 08:50:09 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 06:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: from Tor Arntsen at "Sep 15, 16 09:30:46 am" Message-ID: <201609151350.u8FDo9LI16581456@floodgap.com> > So unless there was only a single *nix machine on campus there would > be NFS. When I was a University of California student, the news spool and (depending on the system) the mail spool were both NFS mounts on the system I used -- sdcc12 and sdcc13/17, respectively, for any other UCSD students who want to reminisce. Some of the freenets used, and still use, NFS for a similar purpose, and the university I later worked for had a couple Sun systems that did this for specific departments although it was primarily a NetWare shop initially. That said, on my own systems, the only NFS server is set up so it can be a swap device for the Dreamcast. ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- One can live in Paris ... on just grief and anguish. -- Henry Miller ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 15 09:54:35 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 14:54:35 +0000 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: <2148f035-11d0-c5d0-54b0-ae9f94b0c79a@sydex.com> References: , <2148f035-11d0-c5d0-54b0-ae9f94b0c79a@sydex.com> Message-ID: > I was a bit surprised to > find that my home thermostat was running BusyBox. My thermostat contains about 2 dozen parts, even if you count every nut , bolt, and washer. It does the job and is not hard to understand or repair if/when it needs it. Quite why I would want a thermostat with presumably several million components, running a multi-user operating system is, to be honest, beyond me. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 15 10:05:58 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:05:58 -0700 Subject: Tips for getting to CHM from SJC airport without a car? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3082caa5-b07d-c2a1-bd3e-e187444c6bc8@bitsavers.org> On 9/14/16 10:32 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: Any tips, tricks or > warnings? > Take a cab. It's $25 and you'll be there in 15 mins off traffic peak. That's what I do when coming back Public transit to SJC is a sick joke. Billions going into BART and there are no plans to connect it to the airport. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 15 10:11:47 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: from tony duell at "Sep 15, 16 02:54:35 pm" Message-ID: <201609151511.u8FFBlu011731940@floodgap.com> > > I was a bit surprised to > > find that my home thermostat was running BusyBox. > > My thermostat contains about 2 dozen parts, even if > you count every nut , bolt, and washer. It does the job > and is not hard to understand or repair if/when it needs > it. I intentionally kept the old T87-type thermostat when I bought this house because I understood its properties well and it was completely predictable. My sister, against my request, bought me a Nest. It's still in the box. I think it will make a dandy paperweight. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- /etc/motd: /earth is 98% full. please delete anyone you can. --------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 10:46:03 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:46:03 -0400 Subject: More Weird Stuff In-Reply-To: <4FC7E0E4-0010-4AC8-BE0C-C880D72EA0A0@eschatologist.net> References: <4FC7E0E4-0010-4AC8-BE0C-C880D72EA0A0@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 12:39 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: > ... at Weird Stuff a couple days ago... > > Also a bunch of DEC stuff including a VT240 base and several keyboards. The VT240 is interesting, but a bit large. Does anyone have any good programs that exercise the graphics/color? For my own uses, RT-11 or VMS preferred. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 15 10:44:16 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 15:44:16 +0000 Subject: More Weird Stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4FC7E0E4-0010-4AC8-BE0C-C880D72EA0A0@eschatologist.net>, Message-ID: > The VT240 is interesting, but a bit large. Does anyone have any good Having brought one home (some years ago) on public transport, I found the VT240 to be easier to move than many other terminals. Given that there's a T11 processor in there, I do think it's a pity there's no way to run your own programs on the terminal.... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 15 11:32:53 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 09:32:53 -0700 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: References: <2148f035-11d0-c5d0-54b0-ae9f94b0c79a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3dbb089a-bc61-f604-5486-f905022d6a5b@sydex.com> On 09/15/2016 07:54 AM, tony duell wrote: > My thermostat contains about 2 dozen parts, even if you count every > nut , bolt, and washer. It does the job and is not hard to understand > or repair if/when it needs it. > > Quite why I would want a thermostat with presumably several million > components, running a multi-user operating system is, to be honest, > beyond me. (I don't mean to divert the thread stream; this is an explanation of why an IOT-connected unit wound up on my wall) It was a necessary (according to the installer) move as part of having my home's 24-year-old heat pump replaced. In that period, the US EPA has been in the picture very actively. The old R-22 refrigerant units are becoming a liability with ever-stricter restrictions on replacement refrigerant and technical certifications for handling. By 2020, dealing with them will be nigh impossible. The nature of failure of my own system was such that repairing it was impractical. The thermostat cable for the old one was the standard 7 wire hookup; the new system uses (IIRC) 9. Given the expense of pushing a new cable through finished walls and ceilings, a simple cable upgrade would have been prohibitively expensive. So a new 2-wire thermostat was employed instead (at the installer's expense) and it has WiFi, Web and Bluetooth connectivity as part of the package. Fortunately, all of the aforementioned can be disabled via appropriate selection on the (color) LCD graphic touchscreen. The previous heat pump started out with the usual mercury-switch bimetal thermostat--at some point I upgraded to a programmable electronic one and hoped to keep it. As an aside, I just about fainted when I saw the controller electronics for the heat pump. Boards full of SMT; lots of it. On the other hand, the unit does boast a lot of efficiency improvements and is very quiet. What with EPA regulations now, the old "builder's model" no-frills-barely-does-the-job units seem to be a thing of the past. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Sep 15 12:29:55 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TMB11 drawings? Message-ID: <20160915172955.92A4018C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Does anyone know of the whereabouts of a set of engineering drawings for the TMB11 (also a Technical Manual, although that's more of a luxury)? All I could find on it, online, was the Operator's Manual. Noel PS: In an older thread on TU10's/TM11's here: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-September/011810.html I saw some queries about whether a TU10 could be connected to a TMB11. The answer is apparently 'yes', for two reasons: First, I found docs on a thing called a TMA11 (apparently intermediate between the TM11 and TMB11), and one version of the docmentation about it talks about the TMA11 and the TU10, but another version talks about the TMA11 and the TS03. So, by transitivity, if the TU10 works with a TMA11, and a TMA11 works with a TS03, and the TS03 works with a TMB11, the TMB11 must work with a TU10... Second, I have a report of a TU10 found plugged into a TMB11 in a retired computer. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Sep 15 13:03:23 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:03:23 +0200 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <36774160-444A-4287-B613-7168960DD85E@eschatologist.net> References: <20160912092143.GA12281@mooli.org.uk> <36774160-444A-4287-B613-7168960DD85E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <20160915180322.GA8611@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 01:40:56PM -0700, Chris Hanson wrote: > On Sep 12, 2016, at 2:21 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: [...] >> The 68020 onwards made the CPU fully 32 bit, although various bits of legacy >> 16 bit cruft remained for compatibility. > No, the 68000 was a 32-bit CPU, as defined by the register width and > programming model. The fact that it was implemented with a 16-bit ALU and had > a 16-bit data path to memory is immaterial. By that logic, the Z80 is a 16 bit processor because ADC HL, BC and the like exist. It even has a 4 bit ALU and passes data through twice, but this is an invisible implementation detail and it's generally considered to be an 8 bit CPU. Likewise, the existence of zmm0-zmm31 registers don't mean that contemporary x86 is 512 bit. The essential 16 bitness of the 68000 pokes through in a lot of places despite the register file giving the illusion of 32 bitness. Instructions are 16 bit aligned. The status register is 16 bits. There are no true 32 bit multiply or divide instructions. Shift/rotate instructions to memory can only be used on 16 bit quantities. MOVEP exists. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 15 13:24:11 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:24:11 -0700 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <20160915180322.GA8611@mooli.org.uk> References: <20160912092143.GA12281@mooli.org.uk> <36774160-444A-4287-B613-7168960DD85E@eschatologist.net> <20160915180322.GA8611@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 09/15/2016 11:03 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 01:40:56PM -0700, Chris Hanson wrote: >> No, the 68000 was a 32-bit CPU, as defined by the register width >> and programming model. The fact that it was implemented with a >> 16-bit ALU and had a 16-bit data path to memory is immaterial. > > By that logic, the Z80 is a 16 bit processor because ADC HL, BC and > the like exist. It even has a 4 bit ALU and passes data through > twice, but this is an invisible implementation detail and it's > generally considered to be an 8 bit CPU. Likewise, the existence of > zmm0-zmm31 registers don't mean that contemporary x86 is 512 bit. My 68K manual, as handed to me by the Moto sales guy at Wescon back in the day says "MC68000 16-BIT MICROPROCESSOR User's Manual". Page 1-1 reiterates essentially the same sentiment: "The MC68000...combines state-of-the-art technology and advanced circuit design techniques with computer sciences to achieve an architecturally advanced 16-bit microprocessor." Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. --Chuck From turing at shaw.ca Thu Sep 15 13:28:31 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 12:28:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1563217370.81516923.1473964111140.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca> And, to 'put a nail in it', the bitsavers file for the MC68000 is '68000_16-Bit_Microprocessor_Apr83.pdf'. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 11:24:11 AM Subject: Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... On 09/15/2016 11:03 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 01:40:56PM -0700, Chris Hanson wrote: >> No, the 68000 was a 32-bit CPU, as defined by the register width >> and programming model. The fact that it was implemented with a >> 16-bit ALU and had a 16-bit data path to memory is immaterial. > > By that logic, the Z80 is a 16 bit processor because ADC HL, BC and > the like exist. It even has a 4 bit ALU and passes data through > twice, but this is an invisible implementation detail and it's > generally considered to be an 8 bit CPU. Likewise, the existence of > zmm0-zmm31 registers don't mean that contemporary x86 is 512 bit. My 68K manual, as handed to me by the Moto sales guy at Wescon back in the day says "MC68000 16-BIT MICROPROCESSOR User's Manual". Page 1-1 reiterates essentially the same sentiment: "The MC68000...combines state-of-the-art technology and advanced circuit design techniques with computer sciences to achieve an architecturally advanced 16-bit microprocessor." Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Sep 15 13:38:27 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 14:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... Message-ID: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. The _first implementation_ may have been 16-bit, but I am in no doubt whatsover (having written a lot of assembler code for the 68K family) that the _architecture_ was 32-bit: - 32-bit registers - many operations (arithmetical, logical, etc) defined for that length - 32-bit addresses Etc, etc, etc, etc. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 15 13:41:35 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:41:35 -0700 Subject: TMB11 drawings? In-Reply-To: <20160915172955.92A4018C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160915172955.92A4018C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7416d0d9-d17d-09cb-ae70-68bb8a7e4fd6@bitsavers.org> On 9/15/16 10:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Does anyone know of the whereabouts of a set of engineering drawings for the > TMB11 http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102753063 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 15 14:34:37 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 12:34:37 -0700 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <13beac66-ed45-453d-21d0-314273e5687f@sydex.com> On 09/15/2016 11:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Chuck Guzis > >> Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. > > The _first implementation_ may have been 16-bit, but I am in no > doubt whatsover (having written a lot of assembler code for the 68K > family) that the _architecture_ was 32-bit: > > - 32-bit registers - many operations (arithmetical, logical, etc) > defined for that length - 32-bit addresses > > Etc, etc, etc, etc. Hence my comment. It's a matter of what to believe--Motorola or your lyin' eyes. :) Clearly, external bus size doesn't mean much in this discussion. Take the NS32K series--from the -008 to the -032, all basically the same internally. For what it's worth, WikiP refers to them as the "first general-purpose 32-bit microcomputer". There have been a great many bit-serial computers in history,but I've never heard them called "one bit" architectures. Register length is similarly no indication as internal registers can be any length and "visible" registers may not exist at all. 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean ? neither more nor less.' --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 15 14:38:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 12:38:02 -0700 Subject: TMB11 drawings? In-Reply-To: <7416d0d9-d17d-09cb-ae70-68bb8a7e4fd6@bitsavers.org> References: <20160915172955.92A4018C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7416d0d9-d17d-09cb-ae70-68bb8a7e4fd6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: just took a look at this the TMB11 is a special widget for the small Kennedy 7" 800bpi tape drive On 9/15/16 11:41 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 9/15/16 10:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> Does anyone know of the whereabouts of a set of engineering drawings for the >> TMB11 > > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102753063 > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 15 14:39:55 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 12:39:55 -0700 Subject: TMB11 drawings? In-Reply-To: References: <20160915172955.92A4018C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7416d0d9-d17d-09cb-ae70-68bb8a7e4fd6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42f4e5d3-c1e9-1b6b-feb5-7f58f22e8979@bitsavers.org> but we do have the TMA11 drwngs http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102753071 On 9/15/16 12:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > just took a look at this > the TMB11 is a special widget for the small Kennedy 7" 800bpi tape drive > > On 9/15/16 11:41 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >> On 9/15/16 10:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> Does anyone know of the whereabouts of a set of engineering drawings for the >>> TMB11 >> >> >> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102753063 >> > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Sep 15 14:58:58 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:58:58 +0100 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <13beac66-ed45-453d-21d0-314273e5687f@sydex.com> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <13beac66-ed45-453d-21d0-314273e5687f@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 15/09/2016 20:34, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 09/15/2016 11:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> From: Chuck Guzis >> >>> Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. >> >> The _first implementation_ may have been 16-bit, but I am in no >> doubt whatsover (having written a lot of assembler code for the 68K >> family) that the _architecture_ was 32-bit: >> >> - 32-bit registers - many operations (arithmetical, logical, etc) >> defined for that length - 32-bit addresses > Hence my comment. It's a matter of what to believe--Motorola or your > lyin' eyes. :) FWIW, when it came out, and for some years after, we were all talking about "Motorola's (new) 16-bit micro", and when I attended a later ComputerSci course on 68000 architecture and programming in the 1990s the family was still treated as 16-bit until the 68020. The first THREE implementations are 16-bit as far as I'm concerned. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Sep 15 15:14:08 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:14:08 +0000 Subject: TMB11 drawings? In-Reply-To: References: <20160915172955.92A4018C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7416d0d9-d17d-09cb-ae70-68bb8a7e4fd6@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: I have the TMB11 and the TS03. IIRC, I have the printset of the TMB11 and ISTR it is one inch thick! Will check this weekend. - Henk Van: Al Kossow Verzonden: donderdag 15 september 2016 21:37 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: TMB11 drawings? just took a look at this the TMB11 is a special widget for the small Kennedy 7" 800bpi tape drive On 9/15/16 11:41 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 9/15/16 10:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> Does anyone know of the whereabouts of a set of engineering drawings for the >> TMB11 > > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102753063 > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 15 15:24:05 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <13beac66-ed45-453d-21d0-314273e5687f@sydex.com> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <13beac66-ed45-453d-21d0-314273e5687f@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> family) that the _architecture_ was 32-bit: On Thu, 15 Sep 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hence my comment. It's a matter of what to believe--Motorola or your > lyin' eyes. :) Ah, but can the manufacturer be trusted? What would motivate them to take a 32 bit processor and CALL it 16 bit? Was that a marketing decision? "We can call it a good competitive 32 bit processor, or we can make an indisputable claim that it is the BEST 16 bit processor!" > 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it > means just what I choose it to mean ? neither more nor less.' There are more than a hundred different parameters involved. There is no definitive agreement as to which parameter is to be used for the classification, nor even which parameterS. Whenever somebody has the efrontery to build a product that has one classification by one parameter, and a different classification by another parameter, there will be disputed classifications, since different parameters are more or less important to each viewer. Few, if any processors could be unambiguously classified. What size is a Z80? 8088? 8086? 80286? 6809? Everybody here can agree that that is a stupid question, because the list of answers is "OBVIOUS". And yet a comparison of answers WILL have discrepancies. Register size would be an obvious one. But, as soon as provision is made for accessing half registers and double ones, it is open to variant interpretations even of what the register size is. Should we classify them, instead by their heat output? Which part of the elephant are we looking at? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Sep 15 15:42:04 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 16:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TMB11 drawings? Message-ID: <20160915204204.8F5DF18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102753063 Ah, excellent! Any chance those can be scanned at some point? (No rush, I'm not about to start working with one instantly - too much else backed up in the queue! :-) >> I saw some queries about whether a TU10 could be connected to a TMB11. >> The answer is apparently 'yes', for two reasons: >> First, I found docs on a thing called a TMA11 (apparently intermediate >> between the TM11 and TMB11), and one version of the docmentation about >> it talks about the TMA11 and the TU10, but another version talks about >> the TMA11 and the TS03. So, by transitivity, if the TU10 works with a >> TMA11, and a TMA11 works with a TS03, and the TS03 works with a TMB11, >> the TMB11 must work with a TU10... >> Second, I have a report of a TU10 found plugged into a TMB11 in a >> retired computer. > the TMB11 is a special widget for the small Kennedy 7" 800bpi tape drive That's the TS03, right? Anyway, there are indications (above) that it will also work with a TU10. If the TMB11 prints get scanned in, I can take a look them, and see what gives. Further (third) clue: the TMB11 Ops manual says "The TS03 tape transport operates at only one density (800 bpi) and iin only one mode of operation (9 track). The TMB11 is capable of other densities and can operate in the 7-track .. modes." I expect this is to support these modes in the TU10... I originally thought the TB11 was TS03-specific, but after reviewing all the above, I have changed my mind. Having the drawings would be great; I could check them out to confirm that it really can drive a TU10. > we do have the TMA11 drwngs Also excellent! The TM11 ones are online, but not (AFAIK) the TMA11. So if that could get done at some point, too... :-) The two are very similar (a 19" rack backplane full of smaller FLIP CHIPs), so it's not like the RK11-C -> RK11-D, where they re-implemented it to make it cheaper. I'm _guessing_ the latter one can handle 1600 bpi, or some such, but with the prints, the difference could be confirmed. > From: Henk Gooijen > IIRC, I have the printset of the TMB11 and ISTR it is one inch thick! Hmm. No idea why - it's only a quad card and a hex card and 4 smaller standard UNIBUS FLIP CHIPs (M105, M7821, etc). Hard to see that generating 1" of paper (even with the wire list for the custom backplane - a hex-high system unit). Maybe that set includes the TS03 drawings too? Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Sep 15 16:57:10 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 17:57:10 -0400 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-09-15 2:38 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. > > The _first implementation_ may have been 16-bit, but I am in no doubt > whatsover (having written a lot of assembler code for the 68K family) > that the _architecture_ was 32-bit: > > - 32-bit registers > - many operations (arithmetical, logical, etc) defined for that length > - 32-bit addresses GPR width, being the visible programmer model, is the most common and convenient definition of "architecture" I've come across. But there's no reason we can't just say the *visible* architecture is 32 bit (which it is), but the "internal" architecture is sort of 16. Why not have two concepts? They're free. Gordon Bell probably laid this out somewhere. Or Blaauw and Brooks. --Toby > > Etc, etc, etc, etc. > > Noel > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 15 17:46:40 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 15:46:40 -0700 Subject: TMB11 drawings? In-Reply-To: <20160915204204.8F5DF18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160915204204.8F5DF18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7b797c9c-c619-9199-c81c-68cb3db6c6f8@bitsavers.org> On 9/15/16 1:42 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102753063 > > Ah, excellent! Any chance those can be scanned at some point? > I'll try to take care of both this evening From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Sep 15 19:09:26 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:09:26 -0400 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E117ED2-9CB4-4755-903A-A5539F06181D@comcast.net> > On Sep 15, 2016, at 5:57 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 2016-09-15 2:38 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Chuck Guzis >> >> > Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. >> >> The _first implementation_ may have been 16-bit, but I am in no doubt >> whatsover (having written a lot of assembler code for the 68K family) >> that the _architecture_ was 32-bit: >> >> - 32-bit registers >> - many operations (arithmetical, logical, etc) defined for that length >> - 32-bit addresses > > GPR width, being the visible programmer model, is the most common and convenient definition of "architecture" I've come across. But there's no reason we can't just say the *visible* architecture is 32 bit (which it is), but the "internal" architecture is sort of 16. So would you call a PDP-8/S a one bit machine? I suppose you could, but that seems rather odd. paul From js at cimmeri.com Thu Sep 15 19:17:32 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 19:17:32 -0500 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57DB3A1C.50008@cimmeri.com> On 2016-09-15 2:38 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. > > The _first implementation_ may have been 16-bit, but I am in no doubt > whatsover (having written a lot of assembler code for the 68K family) > that the _architecture_ was 32-bit: > > - 32-bit registers > - many operations (arithmetical, logical, etc) defined for that length > - 32-bit addresses Also, Apple Computer referred to it as a 32 bit microprocessor in their early Macintosh ads. I always just considered it a 32 bit CPU with a 16 bit external bus. - J. From jrw at lolqb.us Thu Sep 15 19:51:37 2016 From: jrw at lolqb.us (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 17:51:37 -0700 Subject: Need help with DSD-440 QBus Controller Message-ID: <157307a354b.ac524b16151059.6627704148680623617@lolqb.us> Hi folks, I recently acquired a DSD-440 drive and purchased its accompanying controller on ebay. The controller is configured at defaults according to the manual on Bitsavers. However, unless it is on the bus by itself after the RAM cards, it halts the CPU at location 270. Here are the 4 card configurations I tried, < or > denotes direction of serpentine QBus: Doesn't work: 1 CPU - CPU - CPU - CPU > 2 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM < 3 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM > 4 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM < 5 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM > 6 DSD - DSD - RAM - RAM < 7 UC07-UC07- --DEQNA-- > 8 --- - --- - --- - --- - --- < 9 --- - --- - --- - --- - --- > OR 1 CPU - CPU - CPU - CPU > 2 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM < 3 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM > 4 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM < 5 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM > 6 RAM - RAM - --- - --- < 7 DSD - DSD - --- - --- > 8 UC07-UC07- --DEQNA-- < 9 --- - --- - --- - --- - --- > Works (or at least leaves the CPU in the "RUN" state): 1 CPU - CPU - CPU - CPU > 2 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM < 3 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM > 4 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM < 5 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM > 6 DSD - DSD - RAM - RAM < 7 --- - --- - --- - --- - --- > 8 --- - --- - --- - --- - --- < 9 --- - --- - --- - --- - --- > OR 1 CPU - CPU - CPU - CPU > 2 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM < 3 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM > 4 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM < 5 RAM - RAM - RAM - RAM > 6 RAM - RAM - --- - --- < 7 DSD - DSD - --- - --- > 8 --- - --- - --- - --- - --- < 9 --- - --- - --- - --- - --- > The card says (C)1978 Data Systems Design on it, and the latest manual is (C)1980 - which makes me concerned this is an 18-bit only QBus card. I have not yet tried attaching the drive box to the card, thinking it would at least see the controller without hanging. The box isn't yet clean and ready to go. Any help with this card would be appreciated. Am I doing something wrong, or is this just a bad card? Thanks Julian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 15 19:56:20 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 17:56:20 -0700 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <57DB3A1C.50008@cimmeri.com> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57DB3A1C.50008@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <0764aca0-9cb9-2ab8-4979-994703499346@sydex.com> On 09/15/2016 05:17 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Also, Apple Computer referred to it as a 32 bit microprocessor in > their early Macintosh ads. I always just considered it a 32 bit CPU > with a 16 bit external bus. So what's the width of an IBM 1620? --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 15 20:07:02 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 18:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <57DB3A1C.50008@cimmeri.com> from "js@cimmeri.com" at "Sep 15, 16 07:17:32 pm" Message-ID: <201609160107.u8G1720w61932294@floodgap.com> > Also, Apple Computer referred to [the 68000] as a 32 bit microprocessor in > their early Macintosh ads. And Apple *never* oversells *anything.* ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- He whose face gives no light, shall never become a star. -- William Blake -- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 15 20:29:23 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 18:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin at "Sep 15, 16 01:24:05 pm" Message-ID: <201609160129.u8G1TNJb3998016@floodgap.com> > Few, if any processors could be unambiguously classified. Some can. The TMS 9900 is indisputably 16-bit; it even has 16-bit memory addressing, in addition to 16-bit registers, a 16-bit ALU and 16-bit internal datapaths. For that matter, the CRU is 16-bit, too. The PDP-8 and Intersil 6100 had 12-bit registers and 12-bit addressing, at least natively. If you ignore address bus size, lots of the 8-bits are clearly 8-bit, like the 6502 and the Signetics 2650, which have 8-bit registers and 8-bit ALUs and no doubling or splitting. I'm not aware of an 8-bit with an 8-bit address bus [that isn't multiplexed], though I'm sure there's some wacky microcontroller variants around that qualify. And then there's the MC14500B ... I think this only starts getting blurry when you get above the 8-bit threshold. > Which part of the elephant are we looking at? "No, honey, that's *not* his trunk." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Jesus loves you, and I'm trying to. -- Jack Thompson ----------------------- From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 20:34:38 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:34:38 -0500 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <201609160107.u8G1720w61932294@floodgap.com> References: <57DB3A1C.50008@cimmeri.com> <201609160107.u8G1720w61932294@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Also, Apple Computer referred to [the 68000] as a 32 bit microprocessor > in > > their early Macintosh ads. > > And Apple *never* oversells *anything.* ;) > How about 65k of RAM?! http://tr3.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2011/04/06/5174da48-c3aa-11e2-bc00-02911874f8c8/2e9edc467174c362dd543d51b886196a/02-IMSAI_1977.jpg That's like...a whole 1k more than the competition! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 15 21:18:52 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 19:18:52 -0700 Subject: TMB11 drawings? In-Reply-To: <7b797c9c-c619-9199-c81c-68cb3db6c6f8@bitsavers.org> References: <20160915204204.8F5DF18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7b797c9c-c619-9199-c81c-68cb3db6c6f8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/15/16 3:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 9/15/16 1:42 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Al Kossow >> >> > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102753063 >> >> Ah, excellent! Any chance those can be scanned at some point? >> > > I'll try to take care of both this evening > > done. the mirrors should pick them up by tomorrow morning From jsw at ieee.org Thu Sep 15 23:40:01 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 23:40:01 -0500 Subject: Need help with DSD-440 QBus Controller In-Reply-To: <157307a354b.ac524b16151059.6627704148680623617@lolqb.us> References: <157307a354b.ac524b16151059.6627704148680623617@lolqb.us> Message-ID: <2AC3345C-9A8F-41E2-8E52-1CBDBED2AFF6@ieee.org> > On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:51 PM, Julian Wolfe wrote: > > I recently acquired a DSD-440 drive and purchased its accompanying controller on ebay. The controller is configured at defaults according to the manual on Bitsavers. However, unless it is on the bus by itself after the RAM cards, it halts the CPU at location 270. > See below. Assuming you have a Q-Q backplane here. If its an Q-CD, full stop. > Here are the 4 card configurations I tried, < or > denotes direction of serpentine QBus: > > ??. > > The card says (C)1978 Data Systems Design on it, and the latest manual is (C)1980 - which makes me concerned this is an 18-bit only QBus card. > Yes this is an 18 bit card, but it will work in a 22 bit Qbus in some OS?es (TSX+) with the correct configuration. I.e. it will only move data to the between the lower 18bits of memory and media. > > I have not yet tried attaching the drive box to the card, thinking it would at least see the controller without hanging. The box isn't yet clean and ready to go. > That is a good approach. Using ODT make sure the CSR is at 17777170 (for an 11/73) or 777170 for an 11/23 and the status bits appear to be valid. > > Any help with this card would be appreciated. Am I doing something wrong, or is this just a bad card? > > A halt at 270 is a bit odd, but its only just above the interrupt vector. Disable the DSD controller on-board bootstrap. Without drives and an OS disk, its going to halt at some point, It will conflict with the UC07, if that is strapped for bootstrap as well. Then try to boot your normal OS. If RT11SJ, FB, or SB and the DY handlers are present, the machine should boot and the handler loadable. Without the drives however, accessing them will not be useful. Jerry From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 16 00:11:59 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 05:11:59 +0000 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > Why not have two concepts? They're free. Gordon Bell probably laid this > out somewhere. Or Blaauw and Brooks. In a talk on the HP9810 desktop calculator I said, somewhat tongue-in-cheek that it could claim to be 1, 3, 4, 6, 8 or 16 bits. The justifications for those are as follows : The processor has 16 bit registers. It's bit serial, so the normal internal ALU and data path width is 1 bit. But it does BCD additions between the A (accumulator) and T (memory data) registers a nybble (4 bits) at a time. The memory system is odd, with hardware translating a read or write into 2 cycles on successive locations. One location stores the odd bits, the other the even bits. So the physical width of memory for things like the system stack is 8 bits. Even odder, the machine stores user programs as sequences of 6 bit keycodes. User program memory is logically 6 bits wide. But because of the memory control system, such memory is physically 3 bits wide, user program memory expansion consists of Intel 1103 (1K*1bit) DRAMs fitted in sets of 3. So : 1 bit -- physical width of binary ALU and data paths 3 bits -- physical width of user program memory 4 bits -- physical width of BCD ALU and data paths 6 bits -- logical width of user program memory 8 bits -- physical width of data memory 16 bits -- logical width of data memory, physical width of CPU registers Call it what you will :-) -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 16 01:13:18 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 00:13:18 -0600 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <13beac66-ed45-453d-21d0-314273e5687f@sydex.com> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <13beac66-ed45-453d-21d0-314273e5687f@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 9/15/2016 1:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 09/15/2016 11:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> From: Chuck Guzis >> >>> Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. >> >> The _first implementation_ may have been 16-bit, but I am in no >> doubt whatsover (having written a lot of assembler code for the 68K >> family) that the _architecture_ was 32-bit: >> >> - 32-bit registers - many operations (arithmetical, logical, etc) >> defined for that length - 32-bit addresses >> >> Etc, etc, etc, etc. > > Hence my comment. It's a matter of what to believe--Motorola or your > lyin' eyes. :) > > Clearly, external bus size doesn't mean much in this discussion. Take > the NS32K series--from the -008 to the -032, all basically the same > internally. For what it's worth, WikiP refers to them as the "first > general-purpose 32-bit microcomputer". > > There have been a great many bit-serial computers in history,but I've > never heard them called "one bit" architectures. Register length is > similarly no indication as internal registers can be any length and > "visible" registers may not exist at all. > > 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it > means just what I choose it to mean ? neither more nor less.' > > --Chuck I have a nice paper design for a 32 bit CPU using 2901 bit slices that accesses 16 bit data for the 1976..1981 time frame. With 512 Kb of address space, 16Kx1 drams fill it to the brim. Ample in hindsight for a Text Based DOS but not Window style OS. 1 Logic cards and 2 Alu cards would comprise the computer section. Real I/O is still big iron , and that needs more thought what size my SD card will be. However at the moment my FPGA development platform, will be with 9/18 bit TTL Style cpu and I/O devices in the .5 to 2.5 MB range on the SD CARD. Back to the 68000. I really have no beefs about the 68000 other than it could not handle Virtual Memory as well as the fact IBM had 370 mainframe cpu chip by changing the uCode in the 68000. I still have found a Computer Architecture I like, with the evil 8 bit bytes. Ben. PS: Ternary arithmetic I can understand, but Ternary Logic needs Mr Spock to figure out. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 16 01:18:26 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 00:18:26 -0600 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <0764aca0-9cb9-2ab8-4979-994703499346@sydex.com> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57DB3A1C.50008@cimmeri.com> <0764aca0-9cb9-2ab8-4979-994703499346@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 9/15/2016 6:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 09/15/2016 05:17 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> Also, Apple Computer referred to it as a 32 bit microprocessor in >> their early Macintosh ads. I always just considered it a 32 bit CPU >> with a 16 bit external bus. > > So what's the width of an IBM 1620? > > --Chuck > > I don't expect to fit in a standard rack... runs. Ben. PS: I think it is 12 bits, to offset the slow core speed if I am thinking of the right machine. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Sep 16 06:19:31 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 13:19:31 +0200 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: <57DB3A1C.50008@cimmeri.com> <201609160107.u8G1720w61932294@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20160916111931.GA17183@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 08:34:38PM -0500, Kyle Owen wrote: [...] > How about 65k of RAM?! > http://tr3.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2011/04/06/5174da48-c3aa-11e2-bc00-02911874f8c8/2e9edc467174c362dd543d51b886196a/02-IMSAI_1977.jpg > That's like...a whole 1k more than the competition! And underselling it, because 65,536 is 66k to 2 s.f. It seems that as soon as one is measuring something that is related to computers, some people think that centuries of convention and standards should be ignored and SI multipliers now mean powers of 1024, even when measuring a quantity that is not naturally a power of two such as disk sizes or network speed. It just serves to confuddle things. From dab at froghouse.org Fri Sep 16 07:51:30 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 05:51:30 -0700 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <13beac66-ed45-453d-21d0-314273e5687f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <01a4ec68-dd4e-3d20-2535-12d200ff82fb@froghouse.org> On 9/15/16 23:13, ben wrote: > PS: Ternary arithmetic I can understand, but Ternary Logic needs Mr > Spock to figure out. Ternery logic would seem to be useful for implementing an asynchronous design instead of, say, dual rail encoding. From jrw at lolqb.us Fri Sep 16 07:52:48 2016 From: jrw at lolqb.us (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 05:52:48 -0700 Subject: Need help with DSD-440 QBus Controller In-Reply-To: <2AC3345C-9A8F-41E2-8E52-1CBDBED2AFF6@ieee.org> References: <157307a354b.ac524b16151059.6627704148680623617@lolqb.us> <2AC3345C-9A8F-41E2-8E52-1CBDBED2AFF6@ieee.org> Message-ID: <157330e773f.ac2ea45b9669.6150343424831592768@lolqb.us> Never mind. The 11/23+ boots from a SD-IDE+IDE-SCSI adapter combo and I had inadvertently bumped the card and ejected it. Nothing's wrong. ---- On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 21:40:01 -0700 Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org>wrote ---- > On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:51 PM, Julian Wolfe <jrw at lolqb.us> wrote: > > I recently acquired a DSD-440 drive and purchased its accompanying controller on ebay. The controller is configured at defaults according to the manual on Bitsavers. However, unless it is on the bus by itself after the RAM cards, it halts the CPU at location 270. > See below. Assuming you have a Q-Q backplane here. If its an Q-CD, full stop. > Here are the 4 card configurations I tried, &lt; or &gt; denotes direction of serpentine QBus: > > ??. > > The card says (C)1978 Data Systems Design on it, and the latest manual is (C)1980 - which makes me concerned this is an 18-bit only QBus card. > Yes this is an 18 bit card, but it will work in a 22 bit Qbus in some OS?es (TSX+) with the correct configuration. I.e. it will only move data to the between the lower 18bits of memory and media. > > I have not yet tried attaching the drive box to the card, thinking it would at least see the controller without hanging. The box isn't yet clean and ready to go. > That is a good approach. Using ODT make sure the CSR is at 17777170 (for an 11/73) or 777170 for an 11/23 and the status bits appear to be valid. > > Any help with this card would be appreciated. Am I doing something wrong, or is this just a bad card? > > A halt at 270 is a bit odd, but its only just above the interrupt vector. Disable the DSD controller on-board bootstrap. Without drives and an OS disk, its going to halt at some point, It will conflict with the UC07, if that is strapped for bootstrap as well. Then try to boot your normal OS. If RT11SJ, FB, or SB and the DY handlers are present, the machine should boot and the handler loadable. Without the drives however, accessing them will not be useful. Jerry From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Sep 16 08:17:26 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 15:17:26 +0200 Subject: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <13beac66-ed45-453d-21d0-314273e5687f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20160916131726.GA17990@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 12:13:18AM -0600, ben wrote: [...] > PS: Ternary arithmetic I can understand, but Ternary Logic needs Mr Spock to > figure out. You'd first have to get everybody to agree on what ternary logic is. Ask three experts, and you'll get four answers. Mercifully, most computer people only encounter ternary logic in the form of SQL NULL, although the many edge cases make it quite the doozy. My experiments with FPGAs introduced me to nine-valued logic and development tools stuck in the 1980s, at which point I decided that I should stick to writing software instead. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 16 12:06:47 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 10:06:47 -0700 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57DB3A1C.50008@cimmeri.com> <0764aca0-9cb9-2ab8-4979-994703499346@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3b1ebfc4-d770-982b-ee41-933e4fa7f018@sydex.com> On 09/15/2016 11:18 PM, ben wrote: > On 9/15/2016 6:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> So what's the width of an IBM 1620? > > I don't expect to fit in a standard rack... runs. > Ben. > PS: I think it is 12 bits, to offset the slow core speed > if I am thinking of the right machine. Nope, that can't be. 1620 is a decimal machine (normally) and while the memory interface is 12 bits, two of those bits are parity bits, so you can't count those. That leads to "bytes" of 10 bits, two of which are flag/sign bits, so they don't really enter into computation. That is, the smallest unit on which one can do arithmetic is two decimal digits, with one flag bit serving as field demarcation and the other serving as sign. While you might call this a 10 bit machine, that's misleading. There are special bit patterns that mean things (such as 8-2 bit, which means a record mark, but the special combinations must be read, as there's no way to generate or test for them programatically. There are no visible registers; i.e., there's no way to query the P-counter directly. My point is that there are many machines that defy simple labels. Harvard architecture machines can be sioppery--take the humble PIC it its simplest form--12 bit instruction words that may also contain data, but 8 bit computation and data registers. I'm aware of supercomputers with 512 bit memory paths that, for example, can compute 128 bits per cycle, but have 64-bit GP registers. --Chuck From david at thecoolbears.org Thu Sep 15 15:08:06 2016 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:08:06 -0700 Subject: 2.11BSD Device Names Message-ID: For 2.11BSD on the PDP-11, in the stand alone utilities that are found on the installation tape, the storage devices are named: dn(x,y,z) where dn is the mnemonic for the driver, x is the controller number, y is the unit number and z is the partition on the unit. So the first partition on the first drive on the first MSCP controller is ra(0,0,0). It's fairly easy form the install tape to disklabel and mkfs a drive on a second controller. Once UNIX is running, things change. The devices in /dev are named ra0 for the first unit on the first controller, ra1 for the second unit on the first controller and etc. I don't see a way in the naming convention to identify other controllers. My question is, what is the device name in /dev for the first drive on the second controller? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 15:13:52 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 16:13:52 -0400 Subject: 2.11BSD Device Names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 4:08 PM, David Coolbear wrote: > For 2.11BSD on the PDP-11, in the stand alone utilities that are found on > the installation tape, the storage devices are named: > > dn(x,y,z) where dn is the mnemonic for the driver, x is the controller > number, y is the unit number and z is the partition on the unit. So the > first partition on the first drive on the first MSCP controller is > ra(0,0,0). It's fairly easy form the install tape to disklabel and mkfs a > drive on a second controller. Sure... driver name, then a vector of controller, unit, and partition... > Once UNIX is running, things change. The devices in /dev are named ra0 for > the first unit on the first controller, ra1 for the second unit on the > first controller and etc. I don't see a way in the naming convention to > identify other controllers. > > My question is, what is the device name in /dev for the first drive on the > second controller? Isn't it rb? -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 19:09:37 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 17:09:37 -0700 Subject: 2.11BSD Device Names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 1:08 PM, David Coolbear wrote: > For 2.11BSD on the PDP-11, in the stand alone utilities that are found on > the installation tape, the storage devices are named: > > dn(x,y,z) where dn is the mnemonic for the driver, x is the controller > number, y is the unit number and z is the partition on the unit. So the > first partition on the first drive on the first MSCP controller is > ra(0,0,0). It's fairly easy form the install tape to disklabel and mkfs a > drive on a second controller. > > Once UNIX is running, things change. The devices in /dev are named ra0 for > the first unit on the first controller, ra1 for the second unit on the > first controller and etc. I don't see a way in the naming convention to > identify other controllers. > > My question is, what is the device name in /dev for the first drive on the > second controller? man ra major device number(s): raw: 14 block: 5 minor device encoding: bits 0007 specify partition of RA drive bits 0070 specify RA drive bits 0300 specify RA controller ra{0-7}{a-h} would be the 8 partitions on the 8 drives on the first controller ra{8-15}{a-h} would be the 8 partitions on the 8 drives on the second controller ra{16-23}{a-h} would be the 8 partitions on the 8 drives on the third controller ra{24-31}{a-h} would be the 8 partitions on the 8 drives on the fourth controller. ls -l /dev/*ra* If you don't see the device you need than you can use /dev/MAKEDEV to create it with the appropriate major and minor device numbers. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 00:24:42 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 01:24:42 -0400 Subject: Anyone have any info on a Tektronix X221CHT? Message-ID: Hi, All, I unearthed what appears to be a Tektronix X terminal, marked on the bottom: MODEL: X221CHT SERIAL: LAN: 08 00 11 KEY: <17 digit alphanumeric> The connectors on the back are: 8-pin DIN marked +5VDC/+12VDC PS/2 Mouse PS/2 Keyboard 15-pin VGA 2x DE9-M serial "RJ45" Ethernet 10Base2 BNC several empty rectangular openings presumable for expansion mods Inside is: Sonic-T DP83934CVUL-25 TI TLC34076-135FN Video SRAM LSI LR33020MC-25 "GRAPHX PROC" Tektronix 160-9461-00 29F010 FLASH EEPROM 2x 72-pin SIMM sockets with on SIMM installed, appears to be 4MB Chip dates are frequently last 60 days of 1996. Two minor SOIC parts have the newest visible date code, 9701. I do not have the PSU for it and have not tried powering it on. I can probably solder some wires to the back of the PCB to feed it +12V and +5V, but I'm a little surprised to find zero information on the web searching for variants of the vendor and model number. Anyone here have any info? If it is an X terminal, it's probably a brick without a somewhat sizable tftp area for it to slurp up. Thanks for any tips, comments or pointers. -ethan From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 01:32:46 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 08:32:46 +0200 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Op 15 sep. 2016 11:57 p.m. schreef "Toby Thain" : > > On 2016-09-15 2:38 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> > From: Chuck Guzis >> >> > Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. >> >> The _first implementation_ may have been 16-bit, but I am in no doubt >> whatsover (having written a lot of assembler code for the 68K family) >> that the _architecture_ was 32-bit: >> >> - 32-bit registers >> - many operations (arithmetical, logical, etc) defined for that length >> - 32-bit addresses > > > GPR width, being the visible programmer model, is the most common and convenient definition of "architecture" I've come across. But there's no reason we can't just say the *visible* architecture is 32 bit (which it is), but the "internal" architecture is sort of 16. Afaik, the term computer architecture was coined for the IBM 360, which was a 32-bit architecture, with 8, 16, 32, and 64 bit implementations. The term architecture specifically refers to what the programmer sees, not to the specifics of an implementation. Camiel From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 13:52:20 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 11:52:20 -0700 Subject: 2.11BSD Device Names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> My question is, what is the device name in /dev for the first drive on the >> second controller? > > Isn't it rb? > > -ethan [ra8a - ra8h] block, major numer 5 [rra8a - rra8h] character/raw, major number 14 The low 6 bits of the minor number are the drive and partition. The minor numbers for the drives and partitions on the second controller are in the range 64-127. # ls -l *ra8* brw-r----- 1 root 5, 64 Aug 1 1995 ra8a brw-r----- 1 root 5, 65 Dec 16 1991 ra8b brw-r----- 1 root 5, 66 Dec 16 1991 ra8c brw-r----- 1 root 5, 67 Dec 16 1991 ra8d brw-r----- 1 root 5, 68 Dec 16 1991 ra8e brw-r----- 1 root 5, 69 Dec 16 1991 ra8f brw-r----- 1 root 5, 70 Dec 16 1991 ra8g brw-r----- 1 root 5, 71 Dec 16 1991 ra8h crw-r----- 1 root 14, 64 Dec 31 1997 rra8a crw-r----- 1 root 14, 65 Dec 16 1991 rra8b crw-r----- 1 root 14, 66 Nov 7 1995 rra8c crw-r----- 1 root 14, 67 Dec 25 1991 rra8d crw-r----- 1 root 14, 68 Dec 25 1991 rra8e crw-r----- 1 root 14, 69 Dec 20 1991 rra8f crw-r----- 1 root 14, 70 Jan 19 1997 rra8g crw-r----- 1 root 14, 71 Dec 16 1991 rra8h From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Sep 16 14:27:24 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 15:27:24 -0400 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <7e5ff481-ba5a-685d-5bf7-3bd599281884@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-09-16 2:32 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Op 15 sep. 2016 11:57 p.m. schreef "Toby Thain" : >> >> On 2016-09-15 2:38 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> >>> > From: Chuck Guzis >>> >>> > Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. >>> >>> The _first implementation_ may have been 16-bit, but I am in no doubt >>> whatsover (having written a lot of assembler code for the 68K family) >>> that the _architecture_ was 32-bit: >>> >>> - 32-bit registers >>> - many operations (arithmetical, logical, etc) defined for that length >>> - 32-bit addresses >> >> >> GPR width, being the visible programmer model, is the most common and > convenient definition of "architecture" I've come across. But there's no > reason we can't just say the *visible* architecture is 32 bit (which it > is), but the "internal" architecture is sort of 16. > > Afaik, the term computer architecture was coined for the IBM 360, which was > a 32-bit architecture, with 8, 16, 32, and 64 bit implementations. The term > architecture specifically refers to what the programmer sees, not to the > specifics of an implementation. Yes, and that's the meaning I'd default to. --Toby > > Camiel > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 14:59:57 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 15:59:57 -0400 Subject: 2.11BSD Device Names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> My question is, what is the device name in /dev for the first drive on the >>> second controller? >> >> Isn't it rb? > > [ra8a - ra8h] block, major numer 5 > [rra8a - rra8h] character/raw, major number 14 I must be used to some DECism in Ultrix, then. Wouldn't surprise me if they did something different from real BSD (that or I'm misremembering something else from 30 years ago). -ethan From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Sep 16 15:20:31 2016 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 13:20:31 -0700 Subject: Anyone have any info on a Tektronix X221CHT? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3da1879a-23ae-c8ff-8d37-a26cce9ad2c1@crash.com> On 09/15/16 22:24, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I unearthed what appears to be a Tektronix X terminal, marked on the bottom: > > MODEL: X221CHT I'd guess that the human-readable model is probably XP221, though that doesn't lead to a lot via Google. However you might find a usable PSU under eBay #271338697806. Ouch, $80 + S&H. Tek made some very nice X terminals, I worked with them in the '91-'94 period. Announcement of the XP200 line is here: http://goo.gl/4DPXlN (Too early to cover that model, though.) There's a Linux how-to for supporting/booting Tek X terminals that includes the pinouts for the power connection. Good luck with the 16 year old links for software, however... https://web-docs.gsi.de/~kraemer/COLLECTION/NCD/xp200_linux.html Good luck, --Steve. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 15:38:24 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 16:38:24 -0400 Subject: Anyone have any info on a Tektronix X221CHT? In-Reply-To: <3da1879a-23ae-c8ff-8d37-a26cce9ad2c1@crash.com> References: <3da1879a-23ae-c8ff-8d37-a26cce9ad2c1@crash.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > On 09/15/16 22:24, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Hi, All, >> >> I unearthed what appears to be a Tektronix X terminal, marked on the bottom: >> >> MODEL: X221CHT > > I'd guess that the human-readable model is probably XP221... Hi, Steve, That's a great tip! > However you might find a usable PSU > under eBay #271338697806. Ouch, $80 + S&H. Nah. Just going to jam some +5V into the right pins. > Tek made some very nice X terminals, I worked with them in the '91-'94 > period. I've worked with some X terminals, just not these. > There's a Linux how-to for supporting/booting Tek X terminals that > includes the pinouts for the power connection. Good luck with the 16 > year old links for software, however... > > https://web-docs.gsi.de/~kraemer/COLLECTION/NCD/xp200_linux.html That's a great document. Very useful info in it. Enough to test out the hardware. Bummer about the NCD ftp server not answering (unless ftp is just blocked from where I am, which is possible). Anyone have a mirror of the old NCD repo? Cheers, -ethan From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 16 16:47:33 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 22:47:33 +0100 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <20160916111931.GA17183@mooli.org.uk> References: <57DB3A1C.50008@cimmeri.com> <201609160107.u8G1720w61932294@floodgap.com> <20160916111931.GA17183@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <57DC6875.6080901@ntlworld.com> On 16/09/16 12:19, Peter Corlett wrote: > It seems that as soon as one is measuring something that is related to > computers, some people think that centuries of convention and > standards should be ignored and SI multipliers now mean powers of > 1024, even when measuring a quantity that is not naturally a power of > two such as disk sizes or network speed. It just serves to confuddle > things. I've never encountered anyone claiming that a 10Mb/s network means anything other than ten million bits per second. I suppose *someone* must have fiddled their network speeds in some marketing brochure, but they'd be the exception rather than the rule. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 16 16:56:47 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 17:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TMB11 drawings? Message-ID: <20160916215647.C786A18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > done. Thanks! I've spent a while poring over them, and I can report that the tape interface on the TMA11 and TMB11 is exactly identical. (Oddly enough, there are very minor differences between those of the TM11 and TMA11. Go figure.) So I expect that report of a TU10 plugged into a TMB11 is accurate. I've also compared the TM11 and TMA11, and they have the ssme complement of Flip Chips, with one exception: the TMA11 adds an M7854 "OPI/BTE Detector" - not sure what that might be. It does not seem to be, as I had guessed, for support of 1600 bpi, because the TMA11 only supports 800. I'll put together a brief page on the Computer History wiki containing all i've gleaned covering the TM11/TMA11/TMB11 (pinouts of the drive cable, Flip Chip backplane chart, etc). Noel From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Sep 16 17:15:53 2016 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:15:53 -0300 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> The 68000 has three separate 16 bit ALUs: one for DataLow, one for AddressLow and another for AdressHigh. DataHigh can be processed by either the first or the second one. The first one implements all operations while the other two only do add/subtract and some limited shifting. See figure 8 of: https://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/co/1979/02/01658617.pdf So the 68000 can process 48 bits at a time, but nobody every called it a 48 bit architecture :-) Many official Motorola documents and articles did call it a 16 bit processor, but others said it was a 32 bit one. Certainly the Motorola engineers I dealt with in 1982 always considered it a 32 bit architecture and Apple was hardly the only one to use that term in its marketing material (see Atari, Commodore, Sun, etc). -- Jecel From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Sep 16 17:20:45 2016 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:20:45 -0300 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <20160916222048.9173315B7E9B0@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> I wrote: > The 68000 has three separate 16 bit ALUs: one for DataLow, one for > AddressLow and another for AdressHigh. DataHigh can be processed by > either the first or the second one. The first one implements all > operations while the other two only do add/subtract and some limited > shifting. > > See figure 8 of: > https://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/co/1979/02/01658617.pdf Ooops- my explanation got the last two ALUs backwards. DataHigh and AddressHigh share an ALU. Note that in the conclusion to this 1979 article, the Motorola engineers say "It is a 32-bit architecture that supports many data types and data addresses." - Jecel. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 16 18:41:56 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 16:41:56 -0700 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <20160916222048.9173315B7E9B0@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20160916222048.9173315B7E9B0@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> On 09/16/2016 03:20 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Note that in the conclusion to this 1979 article, the Motorola > engineers say "It is a 32-bit architecture that supports many data > types and data addresses." Unfortunately, that doesn't clear the picture any. What would you call a Packard-Bell PB250, with its bit-serial ALU and delay line memory? It had a 22 bit word, with addressing granularity to match. So it's a 22-bit architecture? The TMS9900 has already been identified as a 16-bit ISA, even with its bit-serial ALU. So some enterprising soul could device a shift-register-based MPU with 1-bit memory bus, but with a 256 bit word size and it would be a 256 bit ISA? Now you understand my "Alice Through the Looking-Glass" quote. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Sep 16 18:59:45 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:59:45 -0400 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <57DC6875.6080901@ntlworld.com> References: <57DB3A1C.50008@cimmeri.com> <201609160107.u8G1720w61932294@floodgap.com> <20160916111931.GA17183@mooli.org.uk> <57DC6875.6080901@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9460B0CA-F3EC-4962-A3FD-B36386DFD7AD@comcast.net> > On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:47 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >> ... > I've never encountered anyone claiming that a 10Mb/s network means anything other than ten million bits per second. I once worked for a company that said Ethernet switch ports were 20 Mb/s because they are 10 Mb/s each way. But with that oddball exception, your statement is accurate for networks. In other domains, not so much. Fibre Channel is marketed as x Gb/s (x = 1, 2, 4, 8, 16...) but in fact x is GBaud (rounded slightly; the original rate is 1.0625 GBaud). So the real speed is 800, 1600, ... Mb/s. By Fibre Channel standards, the original Ethernet would have been called 20 Mb/s (since it's 20 MBaud, being Manchester encoded), and Fast Ethernet would be 125 Mb/s (since it's 125 MBaud, with 4b/5b coding) and so on. But networking people aren't so confused (or whatever). paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Sep 16 19:04:23 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 17:04:23 -0700 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20160916222048.9173315B7E9B0@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5A7CC984-0906-48F9-916B-6C0EEDA0AAF9@shiresoft.com> > On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 09/16/2016 03:20 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > >> Note that in the conclusion to this 1979 article, the Motorola >> engineers say "It is a 32-bit architecture that supports many data >> types and data addresses." > The important part (I believe) is to differentiate ?architecture? from ?implementation?. It is quite possible to have a single architecture with multiple implementations. For example, the IBM 360. It is a 32-bit architecture. It had a number of implementations where the data paths were 8, 16 and 32 bits. Does that mean that the models that were implemented with 8 bit data paths were an 8 bit architecture and the models with 16 bit data paths were 16 bit architecture? I think not. Where some confusion comes in when we call something a 32-bit machine. Does that refer to its architecture or its implementation? > Unfortunately, that doesn't clear the picture any. Sure it does. It say ?architecture? in the above quote, so I think that settles it. > > What would you call a Packard-Bell PB250, with its bit-serial ALU and > delay line memory? It had a 22 bit word, with addressing granularity to > match. So it's a 22-bit architecture? What is the programming model? If the 22 bit word is the fundamental unit of expression (ie registers and memory are fundamentally organized around 22-bits) then I would say it?s a 22-bit architecture. > > The TMS9900 has already been identified as a 16-bit ISA, even with its > bit-serial ALU. > > So some enterprising soul could device a shift-register-based MPU with > 1-bit memory bus, but with a 256 bit word size and it would be a 256 bit > ISA? It?s very similar to the AVX instructions on Intel. The latest are 512-bit instructions. Some *implementations* have 256 bit data paths. But no one argues that the AVX instruction architecture is 512-bits. Likewise, using memory width as a differentiator is also un-informative (as well as being ?just an implementation detail?). For example, IBM?s POWER processors have had 256 and 512 bit data bussesfor many years (basically the width was determined by the size of a cache line). Would that make them 256/512 bit architectures? The latest Intel CPUs also have very wide paths to memory (some of which is determined by how many banks of DRAM are installed). TTFN - Guy From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 16 19:37:08 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 17:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Sep 16, 16 04:41:56 pm" Message-ID: <201609170037.u8H0b8OX11731938@floodgap.com> > The TMS9900 has already been identified as a 16-bit ISA, even with its > bit-serial ALU. > > So some enterprising soul could device a shift-register-based MPU with > 1-bit memory bus, but with a 256 bit word size and it would be a 256 bit > ISA? I don't think this follows. Looking at the TMS 9900 datasheet, the block diagram shows a full 16 bits on each ALU input and 16 bits leaving it. There's no 1-bit bus directly to memory. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Endian Little Hate We" -- credits from Connectix Virtual PC 6 for Mac ----- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 16 20:15:46 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 21:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TMB11 drawings? Message-ID: <20160917011546.CA7E718C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I'll put together a brief page on the Computer History wiki containing > all i've gleaned covering the TM11/TMA11/TMB11 http://gunkies.org/wiki/TM11_magtape_controller Noel From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 16 20:45:47 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 18:45:47 -0700 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <201609170037.u8H0b8OX11731938@floodgap.com> References: <201609170037.u8H0b8OX11731938@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <7b6ccbaf-5c69-4d46-28ec-e6e3248a075f@sydex.com> On 09/16/2016 05:37 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I don't think this follows. Looking at the TMS 9900 datasheet, the > block diagram shows a full 16 bits on each ALU input and 16 bits > leaving it. There's no 1-bit bus directly to memory. > So the "bitedness" is determined by the memory bus? e.g., a 68008 is an 8-bit MPU? The PB250 is serial throughout--the registers are implemented as 1 bit recirculating devices that are 22 bits in length. Memory is addressable in 22 bit words (no shorter unit of addressing is present) and is again, loops of recirculating serial data. Basic operations are performed on 22-bit words. FWIW, it's a one-plus-one instruction set. My point being that it's a slippery concept that can mean a lot of different things, depending upon who's doing the calling. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 16 21:33:45 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <7b6ccbaf-5c69-4d46-28ec-e6e3248a075f@sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Sep 16, 16 06:45:47 pm" Message-ID: <201609170233.u8H2Xjd419923788@floodgap.com> > > I don't think this follows. Looking at the TMS 9900 datasheet, the > > block diagram shows a full 16 bits on each ALU input and 16 bits > > leaving it. There's no 1-bit bus directly to memory. > > So the "bitedness" is determined by the memory bus? e.g., a 68008 is an > 8-bit MPU? I'm not sure where we're missing each other here, but by pointing out the TMS 9900 had a bit-serial ALU, the implication (?) was that it was chewing through things one bit at a time. However, internally, it presents a full 16 bits to each ALU input and pulls off a full 16 bits from the output -- it's not going out to memory and grabbing a bit per ALU machine cycle. > The PB250 is serial throughout--the registers are implemented as 1 bit > recirculating devices that are 22 bits in length. Memory is addressable > in 22 bit words (no shorter unit of addressing is present) and is again, > loops of recirculating serial data. Basic operations are performed on > 22-bit words. FWIW, it's a one-plus-one instruction set. So why wouldn't this be a 22-bit architecture? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When two elephants fight, the grass and trees suffer. -- African proverb --- From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Sep 17 00:38:29 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 01:38:29 -0400 Subject: interesting ... look at both these HP desktops - style come to the computer! Message-ID: <163d83.63f0e105.450e30d5@aol.com> look at both these HP desktops - style come to the computer! http://www8.hp.com/us/en/campaigns/elite-slice/overview.html http://store.hp.com/us/en/ContentView?storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&langId=- 1&eSpotName=pavilionwave Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 17 02:30:18 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 00:30:18 -0700 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <201609170233.u8H2Xjd419923788@floodgap.com> References: <201609170233.u8H2Xjd419923788@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <368904c0-c98d-7273-a194-3c7e8734ca2e@sydex.com> On 09/16/2016 07:33 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> The PB250 is serial throughout--the registers are implemented as 1 >> bit recirculating devices that are 22 bits in length. Memory is >> addressable in 22 bit words (no shorter unit of addressing is >> present) and is again, loops of recirculating serial data. Basic >> operations are performed on 22-bit words. FWIW, it's a >> one-plus-one instruction set. > > So why wouldn't this be a 22-bit architecture? > Simply because, as you noted on the TMS9900, a data path can override the consideration that a machine has a 1-bit ALU. In the PB250 there are no 22-bit data paths in the whole machine. As a matter of fact, the PB250 has on the order of only 400 transistors (lots of diodes, however). So, does the internal data path width to the machine bear on the bit-edness of the architecture? As I pointed out, since, on a machine with no user-visible registers, the bit-edness can be anything if you ignore data path widths. A bit-serial memory and ALU could define a word size to be thousands of bits--all that would be needed is a bit counter to keep one's position within a "word". In particular, there were variable word-length machines, so a machine could have a mixture of word sizes all in play at the same time. But if you define a machine by the minimum width of its data paths, then a bit-serial ALU in the TMS9900 would cause it to become a 1-bit machine. I believe that there were other bit-serial ALU micros in the early days--maybe the SC/MP? Memory fails me at this point. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 10:07:39 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 10:07:39 -0500 Subject: Anyone have any info on a Tektronix X221CHT? In-Reply-To: References: <3da1879a-23ae-c8ff-8d37-a26cce9ad2c1@crash.com> Message-ID: <57DD5C3B.90809@gmail.com> On 09/16/2016 03:38 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: >> On 09/15/16 22:24, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Hi, All, >>> >>> I unearthed what appears to be a Tektronix X terminal, marked on the bottom: >>> >>> MODEL: X221CHT >> >> I'd guess that the human-readable model is probably XP221... > > Hi, Steve, > > That's a great tip! > >> However you might find a usable PSU >> under eBay #271338697806. Ouch, $80 + S&H. > > Nah. Just going to jam some +5V into the right pins. > >> Tek made some very nice X terminals, I worked with them in the '91-'94 >> period. > > I've worked with some X terminals, just not these. > >> There's a Linux how-to for supporting/booting Tek X terminals that >> includes the pinouts for the power connection. Good luck with the 16 >> year old links for software, however... >> >> https://web-docs.gsi.de/~kraemer/COLLECTION/NCD/xp200_linux.html > > That's a great document. Very useful info in it. Enough to test out > the hardware. Bummer about the NCD ftp server not answering (unless > ftp is just blocked from where I am, which is possible). > > Anyone have a mirror of the old NCD repo? This might be where the necessary NCBridge stuff ended up: http://www.thinpathsystems.com/index.php?modules=support&content=patches&pro=ncb ... depending on their definition of "patch". Makes me think of overlays to original software (i.e. the binary equivalent of a source file patch), but maybe it is a complete, self-contained archive of everything that you need on the host side. cheers Jules From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 10:25:41 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 11:25:41 -0400 Subject: interesting ... look at both these HP desktops - style come to the computer! In-Reply-To: <163d83.63f0e105.450e30d5@aol.com> References: <163d83.63f0e105.450e30d5@aol.com> Message-ID: On 17 September 2016 at 01:38, wrote: > look at both these HP desktops - style come to the computer! > If we're going to talk about "modern" computers... I'd like to direct the list to these YouTube videos by Clint, of the Lazy Game Reviews channel (is he on this list?): "Strangest Computer Designs of the '90s": "Strangest Computer Designs of the 2000s": There's also actual classic computer stuff on his channel too. Here's an example of him talking about his IBM 5160 PC/XT: Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 11:23:45 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 10:23:45 -0600 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20160916222048.9173315B7E9B0@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 5:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The TMS9900 has already been identified as a 16-bit ISA, even with its > bit-serial ALU. I don't know what the width of the TMS9900 ALU is, but I'm pretty sure it's not bit-serial, as an add instruction only takes 14 clock cycles, including four memory cycles. I'd be very surprised if the ALU isn't either 8 or 16 bits, though 4 might be possible. Possibly someone is confused by the bit-serial "CRU' I/O space, but that is unrelated to the ALU width. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 17 12:10:56 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 10:10:56 -0700 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20160916222048.9173315B7E9B0@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 09/17/2016 09:23 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I don't know what the width of the TMS9900 ALU is, but I'm pretty > sure it's not bit-serial, as an add instruction only takes 14 clock > cycles, including four memory cycles. I'd be very surprised if the > ALU isn't either 8 or 16 bits, though 4 might be possible. > > Possibly someone is confused by the bit-serial "CRU' I/O space, but > that is unrelated to the ALU width. Could very well be--I'm just going by other's appraisals of the architecture. But there were some "8 bit" MPUs with bit-serial ALUs, so the question is still valid. --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Sep 17 13:38:13 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 11:38:13 -0700 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20160916222048.9173315B7E9B0@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <224BE223-9622-404D-B65B-2E5564419606@shiresoft.com> > On Sep 17, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 09/17/2016 09:23 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> I don't know what the width of the TMS9900 ALU is, but I'm pretty >> sure it's not bit-serial, as an add instruction only takes 14 clock >> cycles, including four memory cycles. I'd be very surprised if the >> ALU isn't either 8 or 16 bits, though 4 might be possible. >> >> Possibly someone is confused by the bit-serial "CRU' I/O space, but >> that is unrelated to the ALU width. > > Could very well be--I'm just going by other's appraisals of the > architecture. > > But there were some "8 bit" MPUs with bit-serial ALUs, so the question > is still valid. > Why? What does the width of the ALU have to do with the ?bitness? of the architecture? If the programmer?s view is 8-bits (or 16 or 23, or ??), what does it matter (other than performance) what the width of the internal data paths or ALU are? It?s interesting from an implementation point of view but not really anything else. In a previous email, I mentioned the IBM 360 as an example of a 32-bit machine (architecture) that had 8, 16 and 32 bit internal data paths and I don?t think anyone would suggest that the 360 models that did not have 32-bit data paths wasn?t a 32-bit ?machine?. The same could be said for the PDP-8/s. That?s a bit serial machine but it is a member of the PDP-8 family. Would you call it a 1-bit machine or a 12-bit machine? That?s why (in my previous email) I made the distinction between architecture and implementation. The reference ?machine? (which I?ve intentionally used here) is somewhat ambiguous and I tend to use architecture or implementation when I want to be specific. TTFN - Guy From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Sep 17 13:36:15 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 14:36:15 -0400 Subject: interesting ... look at both these HP desktops - style come to the comput... Message-ID: <14aba1.f69fd19.450ee71f@aol.com> Christian, Thanks for those links1 Yes the packard bell wegge corner computer I actually need one of those for a display here.... ed sharpe archivist for smecc _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 9/17/2016 8:25:46 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, captainkirk359 at gmail.com writes: On 17 September 2016 at 01:38, wrote: > look at both these HP desktops - style come to the computer! > If we're going to talk about "modern" computers... I'd like to direct the list to these YouTube videos by Clint, of the Lazy Game Reviews channel (is he on this list?): "Strangest Computer Designs of the '90s": "Strangest Computer Designs of the 2000s": There's also actual classic computer stuff on his channel too. Here's an example of him talking about his IBM 5160 PC/XT: Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Sep 17 14:03:20 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 12:03:20 -0700 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <224BE223-9622-404D-B65B-2E5564419606@shiresoft.com> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20160916222048.9173315B7E9B0@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> <224BE223-9622-404D-B65B-2E5564419606@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20160917120320.470e6da1@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 11:38:13 -0700 Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > On Sep 17, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > On 09/17/2016 09:23 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > >> I don't know what the width of the TMS9900 ALU is, but I'm pretty > >> sure it's not bit-serial, as an add instruction only takes 14 clock > >> cycles, including four memory cycles. I'd be very surprised if the > >> ALU isn't either 8 or 16 bits, though 4 might be possible. > >> > >> Possibly someone is confused by the bit-serial "CRU' I/O space, > >> but that is unrelated to the ALU width. > > > > Could very well be--I'm just going by other's appraisals of the > > architecture. > > > > But there were some "8 bit" MPUs with bit-serial ALUs, so the > > question is still valid. > > > > Why? What does the width of the ALU have to do with the ?bitness? of > the architecture? If the programmer?s view is 8-bits (or 16 or 23, > or ??), what does it matter (other than performance) what the width > of the internal data paths or ALU are? > > It?s interesting from an implementation point of view but not really > anything else. > > In a previous email, I mentioned the IBM 360 as an example of a > 32-bit machine (architecture) that had 8, 16 and 32 bit internal data > paths and I don?t think anyone would suggest that the 360 models that > did not have 32-bit data paths wasn?t a 32-bit ?machine?. > > The same could be said for the PDP-8/s. That?s a bit serial machine > but it is a member of the PDP-8 family. Would you call it a 1-bit > machine or a 12-bit machine? > > That?s why (in my previous email) I made the distinction between > architecture and implementation. The reference ?machine? (which I?ve > intentionally used here) is somewhat ambiguous and I tend to use > architecture or implementation when I want to be specific. > > TTFN - Guy Since I have a running PDP-8/S as an example, I want to back up what Guy has said. The User Manual for the PDP-8/S says: "The PDP-8/S is a one-address, fixed word length, serial computer using a word length of 12-bits plus parity and two's complement arithmetic." So the architecture is 12-bits and the implementation is serial. However, just to muck things up - it is really implemented both as a serial and parallel machine! The logic is one-bit serial - and the memory is 12-bit parallel. The serial logic runs on one clock - and the memory on another clock. It's one of the things that makes debugging a PDP-8/S and "interesting" experience ;) Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Sep 17 14:45:29 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 15:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... Message-ID: <20160917194529.3CF9418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > Why? What does the width of the ALU have to do with the "bitness" of > the architecture? If the programmer's view is 8-bits .., what does it > matter (other than performance) what the width of the internal data > paths or ALU are? > It's interesting from an implementation point of view but not really > anything else. What he said (and others made the same point). When talking about processors, "Architecture" = 'what the programmer sees'. > From: Fred Cisin > There are more than a hundred different parameters involved. There is > no definitive agreement as to which parameter is to be used for the > classification, nor even which parameterS. ... a product that has one > classification by one parameter, and a different classification by > another parameter, there will be disputed classifications, since > different parameters are more or less important to each viewer. And this too. (Which is why, for the 68K, I listed several of the main user-visible parameters, and noted that they were all 32 bits.) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Sep 17 15:11:49 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 16:11:49 -0400 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <20160917120320.470e6da1@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20160916222048.9173315B7E9B0@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> <224BE223-9622-404D-B65B-2E5564419606@shiresoft.com> <20160917120320.470e6da1@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <2586AE3A-23EF-40D9-9956-C9A8A3957BA3@comcast.net> > On Sep 17, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > ... > Since I have a running PDP-8/S as an example, I want to back up what Guy > has said. > > The User Manual for the PDP-8/S says: "The PDP-8/S is a one-address, > fixed word length, serial computer using a word length of 12-bits plus > parity and two's complement arithmetic." > > So the architecture is 12-bits and the implementation is serial. Perhaps the best way to look at this question is that the architecture width of an architecture is what the architect says it is. It's often the width of the registers, but not always. It may be the width of the memory, but not necessarily. It may or may not match the width of the system bus (if there is one) or the main data paths -- but often it doesn't. One other example of a machine that confuses the picture is the CDC 6000 series peripheral processor. I doubt there would be much objection to calling that a 12 bit architecture. But its main register (the accumulator) is 18 bits wide. paul From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 14:05:27 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 21:05:27 +0200 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <224BE223-9622-404D-B65B-2E5564419606@shiresoft.com> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20160916222048.9173315B7E9B0@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> <224BE223-9622-404D-B65B-2E5564419606@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Op 17 sep. 2016 8:34 p.m. schreef "Guy Sotomayor Jr" : > > > > On Sep 17, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > On 09/17/2016 09:23 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > >> I don't know what the width of the TMS9900 ALU is, but I'm pretty > >> sure it's not bit-serial, as an add instruction only takes 14 clock > >> cycles, including four memory cycles. I'd be very surprised if the > >> ALU isn't either 8 or 16 bits, though 4 might be possible. > >> > >> Possibly someone is confused by the bit-serial "CRU' I/O space, but > >> that is unrelated to the ALU width. > > > > Could very well be--I'm just going by other's appraisals of the > > architecture. > > > > But there were some "8 bit" MPUs with bit-serial ALUs, so the question > > is still valid. > > > > Why? What does the width of the ALU have to do with the ?bitness? of the > architecture? If the programmer?s view is 8-bits (or 16 or 23, or ??), > what does it matter (other than performance) what the width of the internal > data paths or ALU are? > > It?s interesting from an implementation point of view but not really > anything else. > > In a previous email, I mentioned the IBM 360 as an example of a 32-bit machine > (architecture) that had 8, 16 and 32 bit internal data paths and I don?t think > anyone would suggest that the 360 models that did not have 32-bit data paths > wasn?t a 32-bit ?machine?. Don't forget about the 64-bit implementations, like the model 65. > > The same could be said for the PDP-8/s. That?s a bit serial machine but it > is a member of the PDP-8 family. Would you call it a 1-bit machine or a 12-bit > machine? > > That?s why (in my previous email) I made the distinction between architecture > and implementation. The reference ?machine? (which I?ve intentionally used here) > is somewhat ambiguous and I tend to use architecture or implementation when I > want to be specific. > > TTFN - Guy > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 17 19:47:37 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 17:47:37 -0700 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <2586AE3A-23EF-40D9-9956-C9A8A3957BA3@comcast.net> References: <20160915183827.2DDAC18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0be8f588-d853-1bdc-6f55-ba2086537f2a@telegraphics.com.au> <20160916221559.F17B215B6F948@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <20160916222048.9173315B7E9B0@bart0132.email.locaweb.com.br> <5607ffdd-0a20-2bad-1fb6-6ae13fc35b4a@sydex.com> <224BE223-9622-404D-B65B-2E5564419606@shiresoft.com> <20160917120320.470e6da1@asrock.bcwi.net> <2586AE3A-23EF-40D9-9956-C9A8A3957BA3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <42898ea3-56f8-5c3a-ff7f-96a8f9eaddfc@sydex.com> On 09/17/2016 01:11 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > One other example of a machine that confuses the picture is the CDC > 6000 series peripheral processor. I doubt there would be much > objection to calling that a 12 bit architecture. But its main > register (the accumulator) is 18 bits wide. And, in my attempt to stir up the hornet's nest, I pointed out that there were machines with no fixed word length, nor any programmer-visible registers--not even the P-counter. Our modern orthodoxy has spoiled our view of the world. --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Sep 18 00:14:26 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 22:14:26 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <62098BE0-1EC4-490C-94CE-DB5DC078C4B3@gmail.com> <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0CDEF360-8AC2-4E8C-A512-49F0C5153D2B@gmail.com> Session 7: https://youtu.be/c0sL_FwPVwM We discovered we do not have a boot disk, but the LCM is shipping us one. In the meantime we have fun testing some specialized Alto tools we built. Marc Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 10, 2016, at 7:46 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: > > Video of session 6 is up: > https://youtu.be/b7yVhMT7tr4 > Found our first bad IC. Probably not our last one. > > > On 9/3/16 11:08 PM, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: > Episode 5, still does not boot, but we are starting to follow long why: > https://youtu.be/Wr7vDZpniNIr > > Marc > > > On Jul 31, 2016, at 6:12 PM, CuriousMarc wrote: > > Next Episode: > https://youtu.be/EDw8U1a6s78 > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_31.html > Marc > > From: Curious Marc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 2:01 AM > To: Curious Marc; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines > > Ken's in-depth blog post to go with the previous video > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_11.html > > On Jul 5, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > > Video from yesterday?s work on the Diablo cartridge disc: > https://youtu.be/PR5LkQugBE0 > Should be up in a few minutes. > We were tickled pink to have official representation from PARC (former Xerox Parc) at the session. > Marc > > Ken?s new post on the monitor repair to go with my previous video. > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html > Al Kossow got us a new CRT tube, so we are probably going to try that this week-end. > Marc > > > Latest entry from Ken Shirriff, trying out BCPL (ancestor of C). On the emulator, not yet on the real machine: > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/hello-world-in-bcpl-language-on-xerox.html > > Marc > > There are only two entries right now: > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html > Marc > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 18 11:17:52 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 11:17:52 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 11 Message-ID: <001101d211c8$351389d0$9f3a9d70$@classiccmp.org> I just wanted to say a huge thanks to Jason and crew for putting on an incredible event last weekend. Last year was fantastic, and this year the bar was raised again in every area. To my eye, attendance was up this year yet again. There was plenty of rich toasty mini goodness, including a Prime 5300 and a Vax 6000 - and a bevy of pdp8 and pdp11 displays. The touch screen 11/70? Front panel connected to emulation was awesome! Someone was displaying some of Rod's front panels. incredible work Rod! The auction had far more goodies this year, including plenty of "big iron" that I'm sure is getting new blood into the hobby. The speakers also took things up a notch, I can't wait to see the roster for next year. I was pretty focused on Dennis's Prime the whole show, so I didn't get to really go around to every exhibit. I'm sure I missed some quality displays. I saw new people actively getting into the hobby, and I noticed quite a few listmembers and irc #classiccmp peeps that had never been to vcfmw before showed up this year. The larger space (and other amenities) over the previous venue were fully used. We may need even more space next year. It was an incredible show, of course I will be there next year, and hats off to Jason for all the hard work he put in to making it a success. Best, J From sales at elecplus.com Sun Sep 18 11:24:53 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 11:24:53 -0500 Subject: pictures of IBM 6110344 and 6110345 Message-ID: <02b201d211c9$30109ee0$9031dca0$@com> I am getting 3 of these ready for sale, and all but 1 of the online pics I see of the boards do NOT have a PA3 or a NumLock key. Does anyone here have a good high res pic of these 2 complete keyboards, so that I can know what is supposed to be on there? Many thanks! Cindy Croxton From marvin at west.net Sun Sep 18 12:37:35 2016 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 10:37:35 -0700 Subject: VCFMW 11 Message-ID: I am finally getting recovered from my trip to VCFMW... the 2-day (basically non-stop) drive each way was somewhat taxing. And I too wanted to say thanks to everyone who attended along with Jason and crew who made it happen. This was my first VCFMW and the spirit and camaraderie at the whole event reminded me very much of the early VCF events. It was a pleasant surprise to find it a lot larger than what I expected. I got the opportunity to renew old acquaintances, put faces with people I only knew by name, and make a number of new friends. The big bonus for me was reducing the amount of unneeded "stuff" and having the trip pay for itself! (It could have all disappeared and would not have made a dent it the stuff here at the house.) And like Jay, I already have my reservations in for next year. Many thanks to everyone who attended and made it happen!!! Marvin, KE6HTS > Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 11:17:52 -0500 From: "Jay West" > > > I just wanted to say a huge thanks to Jason and crew for putting on > an incredible event last weekend. Last year was fantastic, and this > year the bar was raised again in every area. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 18 15:03:10 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 14:03:10 -0600 Subject: Meaning of "architecture width" - Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... In-Reply-To: <7b6ccbaf-5c69-4d46-28ec-e6e3248a075f@sydex.com> References: <201609170037.u8H0b8OX11731938@floodgap.com> <7b6ccbaf-5c69-4d46-28ec-e6e3248a075f@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 9/16/2016 7:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > My point being that it's a slippery concept that can mean a lot of > different things, depending upon who's doing the calling. > And Anything if you are with Marketing.. > --Chuck > Ben. From frankielombos at gmail.com Sun Sep 18 03:13:24 2016 From: frankielombos at gmail.com (Frank Lombos) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 09:13:24 +0100 Subject: Compaq Systempro processor board repair Message-ID: Hi, Is the topic still active? From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 01:33:22 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 08:33:22 +0200 Subject: DEC 871 / 874 power controller engineering drawings? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Tony! I replaced the solid state relay with an ordinary relay that I had around and with some small tweaks it worked just fine. /Mattis 2016-09-08 21:05 GMT+02:00 tony duell : > > > > Is there engineering drawings online for the DEC 871 or 874 power > > controllers? > > I don't know if it's any use, but the 874 printset seems to be here : > > http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/dec/ > manuals/decimages/moremanuals.htm > > -tony > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Sep 19 01:42:48 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 08:42:48 +0200 Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <201609131813.OAA20652@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <201609131813.OAA20652@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160919064247.GA27178@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 02:13:33PM -0400, Mouse wrote: > > To name three real uses I've made of it recently: to check what a > remote sshd banners as, to check what an RFB server banners as, and (in > conjunction with script(1) to capture the output of a one-off server > set up to transfer a text file (this being the use case I had for it on > the Pi 3). > You might find netcat useful. Not sure if/which distribution has it by default. /P From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 01:46:04 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 08:46:04 +0200 Subject: PDP-8 core memory problems. In-Reply-To: References: <33e510cd-f0b2-5e66-3307-730dd60c45f6@abc80.net> Message-ID: 2016-09-07 17:33 GMT+02:00 Doug Ingraham : > The most likely cause of what you are seeing is a broken wire when the > plane was originally assembled. The wire was pulled back a few cores and > the end stripped. New wire was soldered to old, insulated and then they > continued threading in that wire. Over the years the solder joint has > degraded or the wire broke at the stress riser found at one end of the > solder joint and now you have an open circuit. I've not heard of this kind > of problem on the Straight 8 but that may be due to the rarity of the > processors. It is apparently a fairly common failure on the 8I core > planes. > > As was stated you have nothing to lose in attempting a repair as the core > is useless as is. A steady hand, good desoldering tools, lots of photos > and you should be able to take it apart, effect the repair and > re-assemble. Keep in mind that the core beads themselves are extremely > fragile so take precautions that nothing gets dropped on it. Broken core > beads are pretty much a death sentence to the memory. Replacements are > unobtanium and if you decided to make the beads you would have trouble > matching the originals well enough to tune the core to work with both new > and old. You would end up making a whole new core assembly consisting of > 49152 beads. You would need to be really determined to attempt that. > > I did come up with an idea that is simply too dangerous to try. Connect a > power supply to the ends of the wire and ramp up the voltage until it just > starts to conduct. This could be several hundred to several thousand > volts. As soon as it starts to conduct the broken ends of the wire will > start to heat and the moment the current starts to shoot up (the resistance > drops) you need to cut power. You will have welded the broken ends of the > wire together. The problem is that if anything goes wrong you are in worse > shape than now and you really only get once shot at it. And the assumption > is that the broken ends are in close proximity. > > Here is wishing you a steady hand and lots of luck! > > Thanks Doug and Anders for the encouragement. I have decided to put the core in a safe place while I am gathering tools (stereoscopic microscope and better tweezers). The core repair project will be on hold until some vacation day when I have plenty of time and there are no disturbances around. Possibly in the mean time I will look into the instruction decoding problem that affects the front panel operation sometimes. I prepared a small video on the non-operating machine: https://youtu.be/8WYiUz4SNi8 /Mattis Lind PDP-8 s/n 351 (non-operating) > -- > Doug Ingraham > PDP-8 SN 1175 > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Sep 19 04:46:36 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 10:46:36 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: pictures of IBM 6110344 and 6110345 In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 18 Sep 2016 11:24:53 -0500" <02b201d211c9$30109ee0$9031dca0$@com> Message-ID: <01Q54QYL8FP20000G3@beyondthepale.ie> > > I am getting 3 of these ready for sale, and all but 1 of the online pics I > see of the boards do NOT have a PA3 or a NumLock key. > > Does anyone here have a good high res pic of these 2 complete keyboards, so > that I can know what is supposed to be on there? > Not exactly what you asked for but this does have have a picture including PA3. http://superuser.com/questions/290814/purpose-of-a-mystery-key-on-an-ibm-pc-3270-keyboard Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 19 06:33:58 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 07:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...) In-Reply-To: <20160919064247.GA27178@Update.UU.SE> References: <8fc8b1f5-5aec-30b5-8678-7ff913dd88dd@bitsavers.org> <5e2409cf-452c-a73a-8eba-1945fcacc97b@sydex.com> <201609131651.MAA25648@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5b7ba16c-a466-85c9-011d-040e9fcdf614@hack.net> <201609131813.OAA20652@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160919064247.GA27178@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <201609191133.HAA23967@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> To name three real uses I've made of [telnet] recently: [...] > You might find netcat useful. Not sure if/which distribution has it > by default. "Distribution"? Are you assuming I run Linux? (I don't, not on my own machines. The Pi 3 was for work.) I have a netcat, one of my own writing. It works reasonably well for such things, yes. However, it is not present everywhere; when there is a netcat present, its command line requires learning - if I can even find the documentation for it. (And assuming there isn't an nc present that is something completely different.) Until I ran into that Raspbian, though, telnet had always (a) just been there and (b) just worked with (c) the same command-line syntax. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From sales at elecplus.com Mon Sep 19 09:21:51 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 09:21:51 -0500 Subject: pictures of IBM 6110344 and 6110345 In-Reply-To: <01Q54QYL8FP20000G3@beyondthepale.ie> References: "Your message dated Sun, 18 Sep 2016 11:24:53 -0500" <02b201d211c9$30109ee0$9031dca0$@com> <01Q54QYL8FP20000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <038201d21281$2a6b9360$7f42ba20$@com> Subject: Re: pictures of IBM 6110344 and 6110345 > > I am getting 3 of these ready for sale, and all but 1 of the online > pics I see of the boards do NOT have a PA3 or a NumLock key. > > Does anyone here have a good high res pic of these 2 complete > keyboards, so that I can know what is supposed to be on there? > Not exactly what you asked for but this does have have a picture including PA3. http://superuser.com/questions/290814/purpose-of-a-mystery-key-on-an-ibm-pc- 3270-keyboard Regards, Peter Coghlan. Wow, I feel like I opened a whole new can of worms! Thank you, Peter! From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Sep 19 10:23:33 2016 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 17:23:33 +0200 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: <3dbb089a-bc61-f604-5486-f905022d6a5b@sydex.com> References: <2148f035-11d0-c5d0-54b0-ae9f94b0c79a@sydex.com> <3dbb089a-bc61-f604-5486-f905022d6a5b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20160919152333.GA15470@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 09:32:53AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 09/15/2016 07:54 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > My thermostat contains about 2 dozen parts, even if you count every > > nut , bolt, and washer. It does the job and is not hard to understand > > or repair if/when it needs it. > > > > Quite why I would want a thermostat with presumably several million > > components, running a multi-user operating system is, to be honest, > > beyond me. I guess people will use those to run some kind of voip (this of course requires a microphone in thermostat) so they can chat with friends on other continent while sitting in a basement or under kitchen sink. Very, very practical and innovative, trust me. > So a new 2-wire thermostat was employed instead (at the installer's > expense) and it has WiFi, Web and Bluetooth connectivity as part of > the package. Fortunately, all of the aforementioned can be disabled > via appropriate selection on the (color) LCD graphic touchscreen. I would check, even with the help of a smartphone's sensors, what it shows when you enable thermo-blue-tooth-why-fi and what when you disable them. BTW, do you have bt keyboard in your house? Your neighbour(s)? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 10:39:51 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 10:39:51 -0500 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: <201609151511.u8FFBlu011731940@floodgap.com> References: <201609151511.u8FFBlu011731940@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <04EFC0B2-849C-40B0-9FA8-57050CE44361@gmail.com> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I intentionally kept the old T87-type thermostat when I bought this > house because I understood its properties well and it was completely > predictable. > > My sister, against my request, bought me a Nest. It's still in the > box. I think it will make a dandy paperweight. > Yep... Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be.... If it ain't broke don't fix it, etc etc. All sage advice to follow. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Sep 19 11:34:52 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 12:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Value of 7-track TU10 Message-ID: <20160919163452.CAC0518C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So what do people think the (monetary) value of a 7-track TU10 master drive is? I have no idea what these older vacuum-column drives are worth - don't recall ever seeing on for sale. This one is in good condition, and has all its Flip Chips. The 7-track is a plus in some ways (rarer), and negative in others (can't read old 9-track tapes, which are probably more common than 7-track). Noel From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 19 11:53:17 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 09:53:17 -0700 Subject: Linux at 25 In-Reply-To: <20160919152333.GA15470@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <2148f035-11d0-c5d0-54b0-ae9f94b0c79a@sydex.com> <3dbb089a-bc61-f604-5486-f905022d6a5b@sydex.com> <20160919152333.GA15470@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <41cb4014-5cb1-0436-6138-7ee3e7fd20e9@sydex.com> On 09/19/2016 08:23 AM, Tomasz Rola wrote: > I would check, even with the help of a smartphone's sensors, what it > shows when you enable thermo-blue-tooth-why-fi and what when you > disable them. BTW, do you have bt keyboard in your house? Your > neighbour(s)? No danger there--I can't even *see* my neighbor's house from mine. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 12:16:49 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 13:16:49 -0400 Subject: Value of 7-track TU10 In-Reply-To: <20160919163452.CAC0518C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160919163452.CAC0518C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Is there a thread with more details? I assume this is a master drive, the cards installed indicate whether it came from a pdp 8/9/10/11. Which is it? How is the power supply? b On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 12:34 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So what do people think the (monetary) value of a 7-track TU10 master drive > is? I have no idea what these older vacuum-column drives are worth - don't > recall ever seeing on for sale. This one is in good condition, and has all > its > Flip Chips. The 7-track is a plus in some ways (rarer), and negative in > others (can't read old 9-track tapes, which are probably more common than > 7-track). > > Noel > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Sep 19 12:26:17 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 13:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Value of 7-track TU10 Message-ID: <20160919172617.64A1A18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan >> the (monetary) value of a 7-track TU10 master drive ^^^^^^ > Is there a thread with more details? No. > I assume this is a master drive See above. > the cards installed indicate whether it came from a pdp 8/9/10/11. AFAIK, all PDP-10 TU10's are Slaves. TU10's used on an -11 need a Master and Slaves, I don't know if the ones for an -8 are the same. The TU10 prints don't seem to indicate that there is more than one type of Slaveax, and similarly for the Masters - there is just the one type of each. This one is from an -11, though. > How is the power supply? No idea. And no idea about the condition of the motors, compressor, etc, etc, etc. Like I said, this one "is in good condition", from a purely external inspection. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Sep 19 12:28:09 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 12:28:09 -0500 Subject: Value of 7-track TU10 In-Reply-To: References: <20160919163452.CAC0518C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57E02029.7080000@pico-systems.com> On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 12:34 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> So what do people think the (monetary) value of a 7-track TU10 master drive >> is? I don't know about monetary value, but it is likely to be one of the VERY FEW 7-track drives that might be brought back to life. There certainly should be a few of these drives kept available for reading ancient data tapes. Jon From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 13:43:26 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 14:43:26 -0400 Subject: Value of 7-track TU10 In-Reply-To: <57E02029.7080000@pico-systems.com> References: <20160919163452.CAC0518C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57E02029.7080000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: What is the model number of the TU10? They can be 9 or 7 track. For example TU10-EE is 9-track, TU10-FE is 7 track . (assuming 60hz/115V). Photo of the door, that indicates 7 or 9 channel http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2015/WV_trip/DEC_TU-10_front-panel.jpg The presence of the TU10M label along with a separate TU10 label plate means the tape has the the master transport unit installed. http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/TU10/model_serial-num.jpg More: http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/TU10/ Hopefully this will compare with the unit you're interested in and assist with your assessment. See DEC-00-TU10S-DC and related doc for more diffs 7 vs, 9 track, b On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 12:34 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> So what do people think the (monetary) value of a 7-track TU10 master >>> drive >>> is? >>> >> I don't know about monetary value, but it is likely to be one of the VERY > FEW 7-track drives that might be brought back to life. There certainly > should be a few of these drives kept available for reading ancient data > tapes. > > Jon > From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Mon Sep 19 13:52:59 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 12:52:59 -0600 Subject: Value of 7-track TU10 In-Reply-To: <20160919163452.CAC0518C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160919163452.CAC0518C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So what do people think the (monetary) value of a 7-track TU10 master drive > is? I have no idea what these older vacuum-column drives are worth - don't > recall ever seeing on for sale. This one is in good condition, and has all > its > Flip Chips. The 7-track is a plus in some ways (rarer), and negative in > others (can't read old 9-track tapes, which are probably more common than > 7-track). > Whatever someone is willing to pay. Peripherals are rarer than CPU's. People tended to hang on to CPU's but not so much the Peripherals. If it is in really good shape with controller for the machine I have I could imagine paying as much as $3000 for it. But I could also imagine someone paying a lot more than that. Put it up on EBAY with an unrealistic reserve and see what it would go for if all you want to know is what it would sell for. What controller do you have for it? My straight 8 had a homebrew controller and I think it was a Pertec 7 track which I did not get when I purchased the system. The tape drive had real value still and was the only piece the guy I bought it from wanted for resale. If I hadn't taken the machine it would have gone for scrap at 14 cents per pound which is what I paid him for it. This system was used in the summer months from 1968 through 1973 to do thunderstorm research and data was collected on DECtape during the storm and then transfered to 7 track and shipped off to be processed on the Cray. I have a couple of hundred DECtapes with weather data on them. Around 30 meg words of data. I am assuming that all three drives were used during a data capture session. One drive would be writing, One drive would be waiting to write. And the third drive would be rewinding and then unmounted and changed while the others were actively in service. The Pertec drive was not a data break device and had to be actively managed so would not have been able to keep up with the data stream. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 14:20:34 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 14:20:34 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 11 In-Reply-To: <001101d211c8$351389d0$9f3a9d70$@classiccmp.org> References: <001101d211c8$351389d0$9f3a9d70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Jay West wrote: > I just wanted to say a huge thanks to Jason and crew for putting on an > incredible event last weekend. Last year was fantastic, and this year the > bar was raised again in every area. Thanks, Jay, for the kind words and getting this topic started. I go into a mini-hibernation/decompression after the show's over and have been lax in posting follow-up info. We do have quite a few picture galleries and walk-through videos coming in, which I have posted here: http://vcfmw.org/past.html Unfortunately, a few of them are Facebook galleries that aren't set to "Public" permissions, so those not on FB can't see them. I need to remind the posters to fix that. The brief wrap-up is that the show went great, attendance was up, the place was packed, we weathered losing an entire 900sqft room three days before the show started (won't let _that_ happen again...) and everyone got along fine in the closer quarters. The speakers really classed up the place with some hearty academic topics and a real live Commodore engineer (C= fanboys rejoiced!) We had a dedicated A/V guy (not on this list but thanks Jim!) with a quality camera and audio setup and YouTube videos of all the talks are being rendered as I write this. We should see them arriving on the VCFMW channel over the next week: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu3UDdi0llxiSaFKq-p5gYQ There are a few shirts left, but only in sizes S/M/L. I'll post counts for those soon. I agree with Jay, the cross-platform interaction and general camaraderie of this year's show really stood out. It was great to see new faces and old mixing it up, talking shop, trading gear and making plans. That's what it's all about. Big thanks to everyone who contributed, attended, presented, got the word out and generally encouraged us to keep this thing going. The handshakes (minus the one I caught this cold from...Purell at the table next year) and thanks make it worthwhile. -j From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Sep 19 15:11:14 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 16:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Value of 7-track TU10 Message-ID: <20160919201114.6680018C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan >> a 7-track TU10 master > What is the model number of the TU10? The serial number plate just says "TU10"; and it's not in its original DEC rack, so any label/plate there is no longer available. But the front door says "TU10 7 CHANNEL", and the head shows 7 tracks (since someone might have changed the head, and not been able to replace the door). > The presence of the TU10M label along with a separate TU10 label plate > means the tape has the the master transport unit installed. I prefer to actually check the Flip Chips, since one ought to do that anyway to make sure they are all there (hence my previous description of it as a "TU10 master drive ... [which] has all its Flip Chips"). (There's a list here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/TU10 including locations, if anyone ever needs it.) > Hopefully this will compare with the unit you're interested in and > assist with your ass