From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 1 00:01:25 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 22:01:25 -0700 Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from]] In-Reply-To: <4374b2c0-374a-ddc9-8e9a-4c757952ebee@btinternet.com> References: <201604271134.HAA23768@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201604271553.LAA18867@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160427170225.GC20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160501022359.GA24342@tau1.ceti.pl> <4374b2c0-374a-ddc9-8e9a-4c757952ebee@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <0D923D8F-9E7A-4BCE-A27A-83DD9E4D1502@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Apr-30, at 9:05 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > That's interesting I had a FidoBBs back in 1983 No 33 > > Written by a guy called Tom Jennings in C. Tom was on this list, up until somewhere ~ mid-2000s AIR. http://sensitiveresearch.com/ http://worldpowersystems.com/ . . from his resume: 1984 ? 1995: Fido Software (d/b/a), author Fido/Fidonet software From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun May 1 00:44:46 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 00:44:46 -0500 Subject: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) In-Reply-To: <5723B76D.4090300@snarc.net> References: <5723AD38.7000102@snarc.net> <5723B76D.4090300@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20160501054445.GB73338@gmail.com> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>Anyone here on cctalk consider themselves a file systems expert and have > >>the credentials or job title to vouch for it? If so, then I need to > >>interview you ASAP today (in the next hour-ish) for a TechRepublic.com > >>article. Contact me offline: news at snarc.net. > >> > >>Not going to discuss the story itself here in public. > >> > > > >Can you be a little more specific? File systems is quite broad > > > > One of the hard disk standards bodies is working on a new feature (which I'm > not going to post here) that would require changes to file systems, > otherwise the new feature is academic and useless in the real world. So I am > looking for someone with FS chops to comment on whether the changes can > reasonably happen. Cannot say more except in private. Hopefully not something that would require said filesystem implementators to pay licensing fees or sign NDAs or take affirmative action to limit users' use of data, or onerous things like that. -- Eric Christopherson From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun May 1 02:32:21 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 03:32:21 -0400 Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email... Message-ID: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> fido news when he became editor and they are lamenting the Internet taking away from fido net.... https://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gopher.meulie.net/0/fidonews/2002/fido1902.nw s In a message dated 4/30/2016 7:43:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, geneb at deltasoft.com writes: On Sun, 1 May 2016, Tomasz Rola wrote: > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:07:34AM -0700, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: >> > [...] >>> Just look into the political machinations of what was known as FidoNet to >>> see how this could end up. >>> >> What IS known as FidoNet (1:138/142 here. :) ) and it's still a >> political shit-show, mostly due to people from Zone 2. *sigh* > > Pardon my ignorant question but is there a place on the net where I > could read some more about it? Or maybe it is short enough to explain > here? > Books could be written about it unfortunately, One of the more annoying aspects is Bjorn Felten, the current editor of FidoNews - he's refused repeated requests to pass on his editor duties for various reasons and he's refused - for at least the last 10 years. Find a telnetable BBS that's a member of FidoNet and start reading the FidoNews echo for a taste of the insanity. The Fido Sysop (FNSYSOP) is also a pretty deranged place. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From erik at baigar.de Sun May 1 06:10:46 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 13:10:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, sorry, but there emerged more questions from my side ;-) On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > Hawk, but not the odd S/140 and MV/8000 punches) and software (ARTS, > ARTS/32) were ROLM designs. I only know ARTS from ads being sold on eBay - this is some form od Ada development environment (or a complete OS?)? The acronym probably means something like "Ada Real Time System" (?). Was this a cross compiler tool or did it run natively on the hardware? As there is a /32 variant, do you think a variant for the 16 bit machines like 16xx or MSE14 did survive some- where? > Steve Wallach had incorporated into the PTE format for the Eagle in > order to turn memory references into I/O requests that would be > transparently resolved in the physical memory of another machine. Although I do not recognize the "PTE format", I guess the Eagle project is related to a widely sold US made aircraft, right? This one carried at least one Hawk/32 ;-) Some of the Rolm stuff I have got is from the company which serviced the equipment of the ATTAS aircraft... http://www.dlr.de/dlr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10644#gallery/1751 http://www.dlr.de/dlr/Portaldata/1/Resources/documents/ATTAS_Handout_2001.pdf ...and this also had Hawk/32 on board with the whole lot of Rolms interconnected by a fiber based MCA bus to exchange data. So this seemt having been common hardware those days ;-) > deal from each other ("Yes, I know that the PATU instruction only occurs > twice in the body of AOS/VS, but it's executed on every context switch > and as such it's probably not a really good idea to implement it by > having the microcode scrub each entry in the TLB"). I guess you have not been happy with context switching and how the Rolm microcode implemented it. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the internet related to the instruction set of the Hawk/32 family but the hardware contained lot of big custom chips and therefor I guess it was far more powerful and complex than e.g. the Eclipse or earlier machines. Best regards, Erik. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sun May 1 12:11:49 2016 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 17:11:49 +0000 Subject: PowerBook Duo 280c Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF1B495@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi! Anyone on here collect old Mac 68k gear, and happen to have a PowerBook Duo 280c in decent shape they'd be willing to part with? I'm wishing I hadn't ditched all my old Macs years ago... Thanks much as always! -Ben From mattislind at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:59:50 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 20:59:50 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure Message-ID: I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our heaps of documentation. Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with everything. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 1 14:32:43 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 15:32:43 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/750 registry (Was: Reviving a VAX-11/750) In-Reply-To: <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> References: <297BBD27-571E-470D-9FE9-BE6588851517@nf6x.net> <76C96A4A-9A44-45EE-83F2-CE321B16E2CE@nf6x.net> <559844B5.7090802@telegraphics.com.au> <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-07-06 11:03 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > Is there any interest in starting a VAX-11/750 registry? I wouldn't > mind knowing who else out there has one and where they are now. If you > are interested, send me e-mail (vax11-750 at snowmoose.com). > > alan > Since I've heard of a few 11/750's having been rescued recently, I'm reposting this in case anyone wants to regster with Alan or, if his list is defunct, start a new registry... --Toby From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun May 1 14:42:34 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 15:42:34 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure Message-ID: <5aea18.1817c700.4457b62a@aol.com> That is spectacular! thanks for sharing it! that last picture is why you needed the E with both backplanes .... to hold all the i/o for all those devices! Ed# In a message dated 5/1/2016 11:59:54 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mattislind at gmail.com writes: I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our heaps of documentation. Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with everything. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf From mattislind at gmail.com Sun May 1 14:44:45 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 21:44:45 +0200 Subject: Mini-RSTS Message-ID: Yet another nice DEC sales brochure from early seventies. This time DEC education MINI-RSTS-11. It mention PDP-11/21-CA! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 1 14:45:22 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 20:45:22 +0100 Subject: DIMM Failures Message-ID: <002501d1a3e1$ffb7f4f0$ff27ded0$@ntlworld.com> To be able to use my parallel port programmer I keep an old (by modern standards) machine running with Windows XP on it. It is an Abit KV-85 motherboard for AMD processors. In recent times I have had a couple of DIMMs fail on me. I am not sure if this is just coincidence, that I have had a couple of bad DIMMs, or if the motherboard is damaging the DIMMs. It uses a cheap generic PSU, I checked the PSU for voltage and ripple and it seemed OK, I also checked voltage and ripple on some of the power pins of the working DIMM, they seemed OK too (ripple about +/- 20mV), but other than that, are there any other things I should check? Thanks Rob From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun May 1 15:06:27 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 16:06:27 -0400 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D7E1F6B-554D-4D0D-8FD5-5AE409F1A1E7@comcast.net> > On May 1, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Yet another nice DEC sales brochure from early seventies. > > This time DEC education MINI-RSTS-11. It mention PDP-11/21-CA! > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf Interesting. I never heard of Mini-RSTS before. Looks like a marketing hack; it's basically just a standard RSTS-11 system, a close to minimal configuration. All they had to do is slap a name of it and print a new piece of paper, and presto, the appearance of a new product. On the other hand, "Micro-RSTS", which appeared much later, is a different item; it involved some (fairly modest) changes in the software and its packaging and installation procedures). paul From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 1 15:21:29 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 13:21:29 -0700 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: <8D7E1F6B-554D-4D0D-8FD5-5AE409F1A1E7@comcast.net> References: <8D7E1F6B-554D-4D0D-8FD5-5AE409F1A1E7@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf > an RK11-C with a light panel. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun May 1 15:31:42 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 22:31:42 +0200 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: References: <8D7E1F6B-554D-4D0D-8FD5-5AE409F1A1E7@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf > > > an RK11-C with a light panel. Drool ... From leec2124 at gmail.com Sun May 1 15:36:17 2016 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 13:36:17 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/750 registry (Was: Reviving a VAX-11/750) In-Reply-To: <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> References: <297BBD27-571E-470D-9FE9-BE6588851517@nf6x.net> <76C96A4A-9A44-45EE-83F2-CE321B16E2CE@nf6x.net> <559844B5.7090802@telegraphics.com.au> <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I have a vague recollection of this - have you reached out to Alan to determine current status? Lee C. On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2015-07-06 11:03 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > >> Is there any interest in starting a VAX-11/750 registry? I wouldn't >> mind knowing who else out there has one and where they are now. If you >> are interested, send me e-mail (vax11-750 at snowmoose.com). >> >> alan >> >> > > Since I've heard of a few 11/750's having been rescued recently, I'm > reposting this in case anyone wants to regster with Alan or, if his list is > defunct, start a new registry... > > --Toby > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From imp at bsdimp.com Sun May 1 15:37:33 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:37:33 -0600 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool brochure. When was this price list in force? Warner On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Yet another nice DEC sales brochure from early seventies. > > This time DEC education MINI-RSTS-11. It mention PDP-11/21-CA! > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf > From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun May 1 15:52:54 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 13:52:54 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/750 registry (Was: Reviving a VAX-11/750) In-Reply-To: References: <297BBD27-571E-470D-9FE9-BE6588851517@nf6x.net> <76C96A4A-9A44-45EE-83F2-CE321B16E2CE@nf6x.net> <559844B5.7090802@telegraphics.com.au> <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <8AFFFCC3-19BF-42A4-BF25-91A6C1EFE13D@snowmoose.com> I sold my VAX (and the buyer, Josh, has it running now!), but I am still maintaining the registry. Only 4-5 people have sent me info. I am away from my desk and don't have access to the URL/e-mail addr right now. I will send it to you later. alan > On May 1, 2016, at 13:36, Lee Courtney wrote: > > I have a vague recollection of this - have you reached out to Alan to > determine current status? > > Lee C. > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > >>> On 2015-07-06 11:03 PM, Alan Perry wrote: >>> >>> Is there any interest in starting a VAX-11/750 registry? I wouldn't >>> mind knowing who else out there has one and where they are now. If you >>> are interested, send me e-mail (vax11-750 at snowmoose.com). >>> >>> alan >> >> Since I've heard of a few 11/750's having been rescued recently, I'm >> reposting this in case anyone wants to regster with Alan or, if his list is >> defunct, start a new registry... >> >> --Toby > > > -- > Lee Courtney > +1-650-704-3934 cell From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun May 1 15:55:36 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 16:55:36 -0400 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <640326CD-3A4A-48ED-A183-E279E543302C@comcast.net> > On May 1, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > Cool brochure. When was this price list in force? Judging by what it advertises, probably 1972, maybe 1973. Unlikely to be later than that. paul From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun May 1 15:58:26 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 13:58:26 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/750 registry (Was: Reviving a VAX-11/750) In-Reply-To: References: <297BBD27-571E-470D-9FE9-BE6588851517@nf6x.net> <76C96A4A-9A44-45EE-83F2-CE321B16E2CE@nf6x.net> <559844B5.7090802@telegraphics.com.au> <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <93E1DF2E-2025-4F3D-959A-F603618304FD@snowmoose.com> I just saw this was sent to the 750 email address I set up. I'll find the URL this evening. > On May 1, 2016, at 13:36, Lee Courtney wrote: > > I have a vague recollection of this - have you reached out to Alan to > determine current status? > > Lee C. > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > >>> On 2015-07-06 11:03 PM, Alan Perry wrote: >>> >>> Is there any interest in starting a VAX-11/750 registry? I wouldn't >>> mind knowing who else out there has one and where they are now. If you >>> are interested, send me e-mail (vax11-750 at snowmoose.com). >>> >>> alan >> >> Since I've heard of a few 11/750's having been rescued recently, I'm >> reposting this in case anyone wants to regster with Alan or, if his list is >> defunct, start a new registry... >> >> --Toby > > > -- > Lee Courtney > +1-650-704-3934 cell From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 1 16:03:23 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:03:23 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/750 registry (Was: Reviving a VAX-11/750) In-Reply-To: References: <297BBD27-571E-470D-9FE9-BE6588851517@nf6x.net> <76C96A4A-9A44-45EE-83F2-CE321B16E2CE@nf6x.net> <559844B5.7090802@telegraphics.com.au> <559B4170.1020209@snowmoose.com> <276ee30b-8d0f-c438-4e7b-48c20e1a07f9@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <57266F1B.2080203@gmail.com> On 5/1/16 1:36 PM, Lee Courtney wrote: > I have a vague recollection of this - have you reached out to Alan to > determine current status? > > Lee C. I actually ended up with Alan's 11/750 (which is now up and running, thanks to help from people here), so I don't know if he's still interested in running the registry, but maybe he can pass the mantle onto someone else... - Josh > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > >> On 2015-07-06 11:03 PM, Alan Perry wrote: >> >>> Is there any interest in starting a VAX-11/750 registry? I wouldn't >>> mind knowing who else out there has one and where they are now. If you >>> are interested, send me e-mail (vax11-750 at snowmoose.com). >>> >>> alan >>> >>> >> Since I've heard of a few 11/750's having been rescued recently, I'm >> reposting this in case anyone wants to regster with Alan or, if his list is >> defunct, start a new registry... >> >> --Toby >> >> >> > From mattislind at gmail.com Sun May 1 16:06:16 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 23:06:16 +0200 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-05-01 22:37 GMT+02:00 Warner Losh : > Cool brochure. When was this price list in force? > This brochure came with a bunch of other which had a accompanying personal latter from the sales person at DEC. This letter is dated 1973-11-27. The other brochures include * 1,000,000 Students - a 32 page document which lists installations at universities and different sorts of colleges in USA. * "Hans On" Digital Logic and Computer Interfacing - thin leaflet * CAI Author Language on RSTS-11 * Huntington II Simulation Program - POLUT * Edusystem 25 - leaflet * Edu #7 - some kind of magazine that seems to be sent to educational institutions - 44 pages. * LAB11 - color leaflet - Front page with lady using a LA30 in front of a Greenish 11/20 and a Red / Green color VR20 screen When I get time I will try to scan more of these documents if there are interest. /Mattis > > Warner > > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > Yet another nice DEC sales brochure from early seventies. > > > > This time DEC education MINI-RSTS-11. It mention PDP-11/21-CA! > > > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/mini-rsts.pdf > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 1 16:20:47 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:20:47 -0700 Subject: Mini-RSTS In-Reply-To: <640326CD-3A4A-48ED-A183-E279E543302C@comcast.net> References: <640326CD-3A4A-48ED-A183-E279E543302C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17FC9F90-D3E9-4840-B43D-6778FC334CA4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-01, at 1:55 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On May 1, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> Cool brochure. When was this price list in force? > > Judging by what it advertises, probably 1972, maybe 1973. Unlikely to be later than that. I wonder if this MINI-RSTS/BASIC-PLUS was a marketing response to HP's timeshared BASIC system for the 2100s. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun May 1 16:23:06 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 17:23:06 -0400 Subject: Mini-RSTS Message-ID: <1f554a.207bef23.4457cdba@aol.com> hilpert at cs.ubc.ca that is a valid idea.... or a replacement also for TSS-8 using pdp8s but would timeshare Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC In a message dated 5/1/2016 2:20:53 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, hilpert at cs.ubc.ca writes: On 2016-May-01, at 1:55 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On May 1, 2016, at 4:37 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> Cool brochure. When was this price list in force? > > Judging by what it advertises, probably 1972, maybe 1973. Unlikely to be later than that. I wonder if this MINI-RSTS/BASIC-PLUS was a marketing response to HP's timeshared BASIC system for the 2100s. From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Sun May 1 00:56:59 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (Alex McWhirter) Date: Sun, 01 May 2016 01:56:59 -0400 Subject: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) Message-ID: Sounds like some of the SMR stuff Seagate is working on. Not sure if HAMR needs fs changes or not, but I know SMR does for certain. Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Eric Christopherson Date: 5/1/2016 1:44 AM (GMT-05:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) On Fri, Apr 29, 2016, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>Anyone here on cctalk consider themselves a file systems expert and have > >>the credentials or job title to vouch for it? If so, then I need to > >>interview you ASAP today (in the next hour-ish) for a TechRepublic.com > >>article. Contact me offline: news at snarc.net. > >> > >>Not going to discuss the story itself here in public. > >> > > > >Can you be a little more specific?? File systems is quite broad > > > > One of the hard disk standards bodies is working on a new feature (which I'm > not going to post here) that would require changes to file systems, > otherwise the new feature is academic and useless in the real world. So I am > looking for someone with FS chops to comment on whether the changes can > reasonably happen. Cannot say more except in private. Hopefully not something that would require said filesystem implementators to pay licensing fees or sign NDAs or take affirmative action to limit users' use of data, or onerous things like that. -- ??????? Eric Christopherson From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sun May 1 12:28:50 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 12:28:50 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? Message-ID: I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame in trying? I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX for VB applications. Or? maybe there is? Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? m From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:31:03 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:31:03 -0400 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? Message-ID: VB4 is what, mid 90s? How about you upgrade the code? Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On May 1, 2016 1:29 PM, "Mike Whalen" wrote: > I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame > in trying? > > I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might > be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > > I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX for > VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > > Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > > m > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:35:16 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 11:35:16 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57264C64.8000502@gmail.com> On 5/1/16 10:28 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame > in trying? > > I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might > be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > > I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX for > VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > > Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > > m > DOSBOX can run older Windows versions; if this is VB4 I imagine it will run on Win 3.1, if not that try Windows 95. You should be able to build a VM running either of those in well under 100mb. - Josh From wsudol at freedom.com Sun May 1 13:36:30 2016 From: wsudol at freedom.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 18:36:30 +0000 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wayne > On May 1, 2016, at 11:31 AM, william degnan wrote: > > VB4 is what, mid 90s? How about you upgrade the code? > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net >> On May 1, 2016 1:29 PM, "Mike Whalen" wrote: >> >> I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame >> in trying? >> >> I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit >> hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked >> small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might >> be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. >> >> I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX for >> VB applications. Or? maybe there is? >> >> Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? >> >> m >> Not exactly what you asked but the app should run okay as is on 64 bit hardware. You might have to copy the vb4 runtime dlls and any ocx's to the new machine. I run a vb4 .exe on win 7 64 bit. From brendan at bslabs.net Sun May 1 13:40:02 2016 From: brendan at bslabs.net (Brendan Shanks) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 11:40:02 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F8363EF-687D-49F0-8BDF-91E515DA1699@bslabs.net> NT 4 or Win2000 would be smaller, and as long as the VM doesn?t need internet/network access the security issues should be?manageable. Alternately, does it run under Wine? A stripped-down Linux distro would be small. (and i assume you don?t have the source code, that would be the best solution) Brendan > On May 1, 2016, at 10:28 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > > I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame > in trying? > > I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might > be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > > I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX for > VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > > Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > > m From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 1 13:57:07 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 19:57:07 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <20160430165914.C95962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <014301d19d6c$1c0f7960$542e6c20$@ntlworld.com> <017f01d19d7d$eed58ae0$cc80a0a0$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <201 60430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> I want to read the DROM chip with my programmer, but I can't ID the chip. Does anyone know what kind it is? It is in a PLCC32 package and the label on it is: 369E7 AYOMA 49/95 I am sure at least some of that is DEC stuff, unrelated to the type of chip. However, none of those parts of the label seem to correspond to any EPROM I can find. My programmer's software has an auto detect feature, but that also failed to ID the chip. I don't really want to remove the label if I can avoid it. The underside is marked 76394-23 Singapore C4 522 (might be 322) 512X None of these appear to match anything either. Any ideas what it might be? Thanks Rob From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sun May 1 14:07:48 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:07:48 -0500 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wayne, You know, I thought so, but all I really get when trying to run it is a message on the screen, ?This app cannot run on this PC. Contact the software manufacturer.? This is Windows 10. The message is pretty, blue, and takes up the entire screen. I?m sure someone meant well, but I don?t know what the matter is exactly. Thanks. I?ll keep poking at it. On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Wayne Sudol wrote: > > > Wayne > > > > On May 1, 2016, at 11:31 AM, william degnan > wrote: > > > > VB4 is what, mid 90s? How about you upgrade the code? > > > > Bill Degnan > > twitter: billdeg > > vintagecomputer.net > >> On May 1, 2016 1:29 PM, "Mike Whalen" > wrote: > >> > >> I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] > shame > >> in trying? > >> > >> I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > >> hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > >> small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which > might > >> be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > >> > >> I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX > for > >> VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > >> > >> Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > >> > >> m > >> > Not exactly what you asked but the app should run okay as is on 64 bit > hardware. You might have to copy the vb4 runtime dlls and any ocx's to the > new machine. > I run a vb4 .exe on win 7 64 bit. From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sun May 1 14:08:27 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:08:27 -0500 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, I don?t have the source. It?s a custom app written a long time ago by an organization that no longer exists. Thanks. On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:31 PM, william degnan wrote: > VB4 is what, mid 90s? How about you upgrade the code? > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On May 1, 2016 1:29 PM, "Mike Whalen" wrote: > > > I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame > > in trying? > > > > I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > > hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > > small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which > might > > be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > > > > I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX > for > > VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > > > > m > > > From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sun May 1 14:08:42 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 14:08:42 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <57264C64.8000502@gmail.com> References: <57264C64.8000502@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hmmm? Perhaps so? Thanks, Josh! On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 5/1/16 10:28 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > >> I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] shame >> in trying? >> >> I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit >> hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked >> small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which >> might >> be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. >> >> I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or DOSBOX >> for >> VB applications. Or? maybe there is? >> >> Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? >> >> m >> >> > DOSBOX can run older Windows versions; if this is VB4 I imagine it will > run on Win 3.1, if not that try Windows 95. You should be able to build a > VM running either of those in well under 100mb. > > - Josh > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun May 1 14:36:24 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 20:36:24 +0100 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <57264C64.8000502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <019601d1a3e0$bfc3d860$3f4b8920$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike > Whalen > Sent: 01 May 2016 20:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? > > Hmmm? Perhaps so? Thanks, Josh! This is a common problem. I think Win9X would be fine if you don't need network connectivity. You could also use one of the OS/2 releases with Windows support, or Linux with Wine but when I tried these for some Access 2.1 code they didn't work well... Dave G4UGM > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On 5/1/16 10:28 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > > > >> I can?t really tell if this is on-topic, but there?s [no|some|much] > >> shame in trying? > >> > >> I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern > >> 64-bit hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to > >> be wicked small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is > >> 600MB (which might be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source > >> these days. > >> > >> I am bummed that there doesn?t seem to be something like vDOS or > >> DOSBOX for VB applications. Or? maybe there is? > >> > >> Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about doing this? > >> > >> m > >> > >> > > DOSBOX can run older Windows versions; if this is VB4 I imagine it > > will run on Win 3.1, if not that try Windows 95. You should be able > > to build a VM running either of those in well under 100mb. > > > > - Josh > > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 1 14:52:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 15:52:23 -0400 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Mike Whalen wrote: > Bill, > > I don?t have the source. It?s a custom app written a long time ago by an > organization that no longer exists. > > Thanks. > > > Informally, assuming your emulated environment is working correctly, are you missing DLL files? Perhaps the error you're getting (Look it up) may be at the VB4 interprer level, if DLLs were missing, as a catch all DIE abort sequence. There may be a way to get verbose errors by using a switch at the command line when you run the program. Does this program load and run on a vanilla win NT/95 or other VB4-compatible system? If it does run on a real machine, compare the DLLs there with your virtual machine. There may be a set of DLLs that need to be copied over, too for the program to operate. If not Win NT or Win95, does it work on Windows 3.1? Win 2000? You could attempt to hexedit the executable. Bill From brendan at bslabs.net Sun May 1 14:55:56 2016 From: brendan at bslabs.net (Brendan Shanks) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 12:55:56 -0700 Subject: OT: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wikipedia says that VB4 was the first version able to produce Win32 binaries, but could also still generate Win16. If the app is Win16, that would explain why it doesn?t work on 64-bit Windows. Brendan > On May 1, 2016, at 12:52 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Mike Whalen > wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> I don?t have the source. It?s a custom app written a long time ago by an >> organization that no longer exists. >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> > Informally, assuming your emulated environment is working correctly, are > you missing DLL files? Perhaps the error you're getting (Look it up) may > be at the VB4 interprer level, if DLLs were missing, as a catch all DIE > abort sequence. There may be a way to get verbose errors by using a > switch at the command line when you run the program. > > Does this program load and run on a vanilla win NT/95 or other > VB4-compatible system? If it does run on a real machine, compare the DLLs > there with your virtual machine. There may be a set of DLLs that need to > be copied over, too for the program to operate. > > If not Win NT or Win95, does it work on Windows 3.1? Win 2000? > > You could attempt to hexedit the executable. > > > > Bill From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 1 14:56:13 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 12:56:13 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <019601d1a3e0$bfc3d860$3f4b8920$@gmail.com> References: <57264C64.8000502@gmail.com> <019601d1a3e0$bfc3d860$3f4b8920$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57265F5D.1070502@sydex.com> On 05/01/2016 12:36 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > This is a common problem. I think Win9X would be fine if you don't > need network connectivity. You could also use one of the OS/2 > releases with Windows support, or Linux with Wine but when I tried > these for some Access 2.1 code they didn't work well... WINE (AFAIK) *still* doesn't support 16-bit executables and the attempted integration with DOSBOX leaves a lot to be desired. It could well be that some parts of the VB4 application are 16-bit PM. VirtualBox might be a pretty good alternative. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Sun May 1 17:04:06 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 16:04:06 -0600 Subject: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Host-aware SMR doesn't require changes, but will benefit from them The host can optimize where things are placed and the order it does things, but otherwise needs no changes. And even if you don't change things, it will still work, but maybe with really bad performance. Host-managed SMR does require file system changes. It forces filesystems to be almost a pure log since most of the modifiable blocks need to be written in 'strips' rather than randomly. Drive-managed SMR doesn't require any changes, and hosts can't take advantage of the stripe geometries because they aren't communicated to the host, nor are the current details that a host-aware or host-managed host can use. Warner On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 11:56 PM, Alex McWhirter wrote: > > > Sounds like some of the SMR stuff Seagate is working on. Not sure if HAMR > needs fs changes or not, but I know SMR does for certain. > > > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Eric Christopherson > Date: 5/1/2016 1:44 AM (GMT-05:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: File systems expert for a news article (urgent) > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >>Anyone here on cctalk consider themselves a file systems expert and > have > > >>the credentials or job title to vouch for it? If so, then I need to > > >>interview you ASAP today (in the next hour-ish) for a TechRepublic.com > > >>article. Contact me offline: news at snarc.net. > > >> > > >>Not going to discuss the story itself here in public. > > >> > > > > > >Can you be a little more specific? File systems is quite broad > > > > > > > One of the hard disk standards bodies is working on a new feature (which > I'm > > not going to post here) that would require changes to file systems, > > otherwise the new feature is academic and useless in the real world. So > I am > > looking for someone with FS chops to comment on whether the changes can > > reasonably happen. Cannot say more except in private. > > Hopefully not something that would require said filesystem > implementators to pay licensing fees or sign NDAs or take affirmative > action to limit users' use of data, or onerous things like that. > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 1 17:42:40 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 18:42:40 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our > heaps of documentation. > > Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with > everything. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf > thanks, nice. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun May 1 18:29:35 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 16:29:35 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> References: <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 30, 2016, at 6:39 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 03:55:35PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Those who claim that there's not much difference between C and assembly >> language have never run into a true CISC machine--or perhaps they rely >> only on libraries someone else has written. > > Now wait a minute here. C is a very old language. When it was first written > as a recursive descent compiler, compiler technology was very primitive. > K&R style code with primitive compilers pretty much resulted in high level > assembler. Look at the keyword 'register' and the rationale given for it. > >> >> Writing a true global optimizing compiler that generates code as good as >> assembly is a nearly impossible task. When you are dealing with a >> target machine with a large CISC set, it's really tough. > > Now on that we furiously agree. One problem has been getting that through > to people who insist that C is still a high level assembler and has > not changed from the time when it was a hand crafted recursive descent > LR to the modern compiler with all the lovely optimisations we can do. > What does a recursive decent parser to do with code generation and optimization? All of the compilers I wrote (admittedly it?s been decades since I wrote one from scratch) all had recursive decent parsers. The output from that was a ?program tree? that the global optimizer walked to do transforms that were the ?global? optimizations. The code generator took the output, generated code for a synthetic machine. That was then gone over by the target code generator to do register allocation and code generation to the final ISA. The result of this flow generated pretty respectably optimized code. The parser was *very* removed from the code generation. Frankly, I fail to see what the implementation choice for the parser has on the quality (or lack thereof) of the generated code. > The best way of viewing it is to acknowledge that modern C is effectively > a new language compared to old K&R C that had no prototypes. ANSI C is the ?modern C? vs K&R C. However, even ANSI C evolves every few years to what is effectively a new variant of C that maintains some backwards compatibility with older versions. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun May 1 18:52:52 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 16:52:52 -0700 Subject: MEM11A status update In-Reply-To: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> References: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <0D2F4A2E-34E6-4FF6-ADAA-CB76D2D22CDC@shiresoft.com> I had planned on starting to assemble the first of the prototypes this weekend but alas it was not to be. My email server died (SW not HW) early last week and I took this opportunity to move my email over to a hosting provider. I spent most of Friday and most of Saturday and Sunday (today) moving all of my email over (~4GB of mail in ~250,000 messages in 100+ folders). I now have a minimal set of filters running. I?m finally getting caught up on the the 1000 or so unread emails (not spam) that were pending while my email was down. I?ve also discovered that most of my incidental soldering stuff is packed away in the basement of my shop and that will probably take most of next weekend to dig out. TTFN - Guy > On Apr 26, 2016, at 2:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Just to let folks know that I just received the prototype boards for the MEM11A (FedEx just left). > The boards look great! The parts from Digikey arrived late last week, so once I get my soldering > station set up (new microscope and new Metcal soldering iron) I?ll start to build a couple of boards > to test out. Once I have a couple working *and* I get firm orders for at least 25 boards (hint, hint) > I?ll do a production run. > > TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 1 20:02:34 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 18:02:34 -0700 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <20160430233111.GE18197@brevard.conman.org> References: <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5725219A.1070103@sydex.com> <20160430233111.GE18197@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <5726A72A.9060704@sydex.com> On 04/30/2016 04:31 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > I believe that's what the C99 keyword "restrict" is meant to address. Closing the barn door after the horses have run off. It's not in C++ and *must* be included by the programmer. I suspect if you take 100 C99 programs, 99 of them will not include "restrict". Because of legacy C code, "restrict" could not be assumed by default. Sigh. --Chuck From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun May 1 20:10:19 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 13:10:19 +1200 Subject: MEM11A status update In-Reply-To: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> References: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Back from holidays... I'm certainly firm for at least a couple - possibly more. Mike On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Just to let folks know that I just received the prototype boards for the MEM11A (FedEx just left). > The boards look great! The parts from Digikey arrived late last week, so once I get my soldering > station set up (new microscope and new Metcal soldering iron) I?ll start to build a couple of boards > to test out. Once I have a couple working *and* I get firm orders for at least 25 boards (hint, hint) > I?ll do a production run. > > TTFN - Guy -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From chris at mainecoon.com Sun May 1 23:57:31 2016 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 21:57:31 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <6e2a67cf-cb5f-274b-9640-ac226fbabbd1@mainecoon.com> On 4/30/16 07:18, Erik Baigar wrote: > That sounds very interesting - although I do not know much about the > Hawk/32 it sounds to be a very interesting machine. It was quite advanced at the time, thanks in no small part to the efforts of Kamran Malik, Michael (Farbod) Raam and others. > I do not know of anyone having one of these running, but I think some > of them should be still in service. They're still flying, on ship and in subs. It's very difficult to replace a mission computer in a weapons system, which explains why we're only now in the process of changing out the 1970's 370-derived computers in the E-3. [snip] > > But software prior to ARTS was just copies of the DG stuff as far as > I can tell from the paper tapes I have got (mainly diagnostics). All ROLM machines were supposed to be able to run DG software, including diagnostics, but occasionally things went sideways, particularly with the 16xx extensions and in places where the DG specification said that certain bitfields were undefined but the diagnostics would expect them to be zero. [snip] > Yeah for the later machines this may be true: E.g. the BITE of the > MSE14 is claimed to detect almost all problems in the CPU and I have > got seen a test report which shows that some poor moron randomly > soldered bridges onto the PCB board or cut wires and recorded whether > the fault was detected. The result was, that more than 89 percent > have been reported correctly -> This is very remarkable in my > opinion. Does anyone know how this result relates to testing of > modern CPUs? My guess is that automated test coverage has come a long ways, but the point of BITE was to do more than just verify the CPU but the Nova bus and the cards sitting on it. In the case of the Hawk this was known internally as the "one second architectural verification", but running on the simulator it took approximately forever to finish, resulting in it sometime being referred to not as "osav" but "neosav" -- the never-ending one-second architectural verification. > >> because someone just sunk it or, using Terry's favorite metaphor, >> "planted a local sun on it"; under suitable gamma or neutron flux >> all transistors become photo transistors, which has interesting >> consequences for disk drives, etc) > > Hmm, in the list of peripherals for the Rolm IO bus I see a "nucelar > event detector" which probably forces the processor into some routine > verifying its correct operation after the "local sun" event. Ah, event detect. That was a morbid piece of marketingspeak if there ever was one. Large-geometry semiconductor devices (such as power transistors in power supplies) are prone to catastrophic failure in the presence of high neutron fluxes or gamma radiation (that whole phototransistor thing again); EventDetect (tm, no less) was basically a PN diode that would conduct in the presence of radiation events and non-destructively crowbar the power supply, after which the machine would execute a normal power-fail auto-restart (the joys of core). > Apart > from this the earlier Rolms (1602) had indeed bugs which (according > to some ECN (=engineering change notes) could lead to freezing and/or > branching to wrong memory addresses). One of my 1602s is a very > strange one as it contains a memory and IO protection facility > realizing some form of protection to prevent critical code from > getting crazy. > > This option consists of a special microcode realizing some form of > kernel and user mode and an additional PCB in the CPU to detect > access violations in core and IO - the whole thing was called APM > (Access Protection Module or Mode or whatever (?)). This option is > not listed in the standard IO options and to my knowledge is a very > early form (dated before 1974) of such a feature ;-) Way before my time. I assiduously avoided all contact with the 16XX stuff, although Eddie did get briefly retasked to make a hack to ARTS in order to appease the nuclear assurance folks, who basically lost their collective minds when they realized the the nova I/O bus had no error detection -- something that made them very unhappy with respect to the machines deployed in GLCM/SLCM systems. > >> order to turn memory references into I/O requests that would be >> transparently resolved in the physical memory of another machine. > > What form of machine-machine communication was used in this case? Was > this realized using the DG data channel transfers (MCA, would be very > slow for a Hawk/32 I guess) or was it implemented in some newer > hardware not depending on the DG IO bus? It picked off the memory bus, not the I/O bus, and communicated via fiber. > >> In a curious twist of fate, I found myself working with member of >> the Hark/32 team at TAEC in the mid-late 90's. > > TEAC? The company we know from Audio devices and stuff like this? > (Sorry for asking stupid questions!). Toshiba America Electronic Components. We did the MIPS-derived core in the CPU2 chip of the Sony PS/2 -- the so-called "Emotion Engine". [1553, snipped] > >> doas 0, skpdn jmp .-1 > > Yes that is indeed a very common sequence of commands ;-) > >> The micro would be busy trying to make sense of the doas and be out >> to lunch > > ;-) That really is a design flaw. Together with two colleagues I > built a harddisk simulator for the Rolms and lucky as we are today we > used a FPGA to realize the interfacing - so we could repair our bugs > easily by modifying the firmware. And your FPGAs are screaming fast in comparison to a 1983 micro -- and to the 16xx as well ;) -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From pete at petelancashire.com Sun May 1 19:42:14 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 17:42:14 -0700 Subject: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: <81B973BE-A499-459B-B88E-C2E8B6C1E12F@shiresoft.com> References: <20160208220451.302FB18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <81B973BE-A499-459B-B88E-C2E8B6C1E12F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Do you or someone have a list of all the Unibus bus chips ? I'd like to put them in my search list -pete On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> On Feb 8, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> >> >>> From: Ethan Dicks >> >>> I'm starting to get sorry I sold off my surplus NS8641s from Software >>> Results 20 years ago. To be fair, I did get over $4 each for them, so at the >>> time, it was a good deal for me (ISTR retail was $7.50 even then, so I >>> got a good spread on the price). >>> I do have some left, but handfuls, not armloads. >> >> NS8641's are still available. I got a bunch from a guy in Hong Kong for >> US$1.50 each - considering the source, I built a test card to make sure they >> met specs, and they do, so I'm pretty sure they aren't counterfeits. :-) >> >> When I was worried he couldn't find enough, I checked with a supplier (4 Star >> Electronics, I think) and they had like 50K available, and quoted me a price >> in about the same region, so I don't think UNIBUS transceivers actually are a >> problem, at least, not at the moment. > > That?s good to know although I use a number of different UNIBUS interface > parts depending upon the signal (input only, output only or bi-directional). > But NS8641?s are the most numerous. > > TTFN - Guy > > From pete at petelancashire.com Sun May 1 20:11:08 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 18:11:08 -0700 Subject: MEM11A status update In-Reply-To: References: <212992E9-D9AE-4D97-8520-6F64E22DA0EE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Same here On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Back from holidays... I'm certainly firm for at least a couple - possibly more. > > Mike > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Just to let folks know that I just received the prototype boards for the MEM11A (FedEx just left). >> The boards look great! The parts from Digikey arrived late last week, so once I get my soldering >> station set up (new microscope and new Metcal soldering iron) I?ll start to build a couple of boards >> to test out. Once I have a couple working *and* I get firm orders for at least 25 boards (hint, hint) >> I?ll do a production run. >> >> TTFN - Guy > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > From chris at mainecoon.com Mon May 2 00:24:17 2016 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 22:24:17 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On 5/1/16 04:10, Erik Baigar wrote: > sorry, but there emerged more questions from my side ;-) It's a trip down memory lane ;) > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > >> Hawk, but not the odd S/140 and MV/8000 punches) and software (ARTS, >> ARTS/32) were ROLM designs. > > I only know ARTS from ads being sold on eBay - this is some > form od Ada development environment (or a complete OS?)? The > acronym probably means something like "Ada Real Time System" (?). Advanced Real Time System. Memory resident with hard latency limits for servicing interrupts; it had nothing to do with the Ada compiler. > > Was this a cross compiler tool or did it run natively on the > hardware? As there is a /32 variant, do you think a variant > for the 16 bit machines like 16xx or MSE14 did survive some- > where? ARTS/32 was for Eagle architecture machines and actually made use of the rings :P. Prior to the Hawk there was a punch (basically a militarization of DG's prints) of the MV/8000 of which something like three were sold; it was about the size of a large modern refrigerator and was sufficiently massive that it had large lifting rings on the top of the cabinet; while sometime someone would fire up the one that lurked in the hardware lab, 99.999% of ARTS/32 (and all of the Marvin) development took place on commercial DG hardware -- MV/8000s for ARTS/32, MV/10000s for Marvin (with MV/4000s used as target machines). I have no idea if any of the software survived anywhere :( It's funny that you mention the MSE14; it was the other punch done by ROLM, basically a S140 stuffed into a 1/2 ATR chassis. IIRC it had a somewhat painful gestation, because mapping the 15x15" S/140 processor onto multiple smaller cards created interesting timing problems. The ADA compiler was developed in partnership with Rational; as part of that deal ROLM was supposed to look at creating a militarized version of the R1000. The R1000 was freaking huge -- much taller than a MV/8000, to the point that getting it into the machine room was a bit of a challenge -- and it turned out it was markedly slower executing Ada code than a MV/8000 running code produced by the ROLM compiler, so in the end that project went more or less nowhere. > >> Steve Wallach had incorporated into the PTE format for the Eagle in >> order to turn memory references into I/O requests that would be >> transparently resolved in the physical memory of another machine. > > Although I do not recognize the "PTE format", I guess the Eagle > project is related to a widely sold US made aircraft, right? This > one carried at least one Hawk/32 ;-) PTE ::= Page Table Entry. "Eagle" was DG's name for the MV architecture; ROLM's "Hawk" was a play on "Eagle" ;) > > Some of the Rolm stuff I have got is from the company which serviced > the equipment of the ATTAS aircraft... > > http://www.dlr.de/dlr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10644#gallery/1751 > > http://www.dlr.de/dlr/Portaldata/1/Resources/documents/ATTAS_Handout_2001.pdf Huh. Interesting :) >> deal from each other ("Yes, I know that the PATU instruction only occurs >> twice in the body of AOS/VS, but it's executed on every context switch >> and as such it's probably not a really good idea to implement it by >> having the microcode scrub each entry in the TLB"). > > I guess you have not been happy with context switching and how > the Rolm microcode implemented it. IIRC we caught the problem early enough that they were able to come up with a hardware invalidation that did materially what the MV's did and thus we didn't end up paying a terrible performance penalty on context switching. > Unfortunately, there is nothing > on the internet related to the instruction set of the Hawk/32 > family but the hardware contained lot of big custom chips and > therefor I guess it was far more powerful and complex than > e.g. the Eclipse or earlier machines. It's instruction set is identical to the MV/8000, but there's some differences in how it treats "undefined" results and "undefined" bitfields in a handful of instructions, enough to require tweaking the diagnostics. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon May 2 01:06:18 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 23:06:18 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> On 4/27/2016 10:12 PM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> I have my Rolm 1603 working. No peripherals hooked to it, but you can >> toggle in stuff from the front panel. >> http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/rolm1603_f.jpg > > Very cool, Bob - we have been in touch seom years ago and > great, that your machine is still alive! Many thanks for the > picture and two questions out of curiosity: > > (1) The panel is mounted on the rear side (where memory is) of > the processor. Is it wired and powered internally or do > you have to connect the panel to the plugs of the > processor externally? > (2) The 1603 uses the same 5605 processor "sandwich" also > used by the 1602B and not the 9PCBs of the earlier 1602s? > > Keep up taking care of your Rolm, its a very nice and rare > machine... > > Erik Yes, the panel is mounted near the memory and plugs into the bus. I think it's the 5605 processor, four CPU boards + some I/O. More photos of it can be found here: http://www.dvq.com/rolm/ Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 02:50:08 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 09:50:08 +0200 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? Message-ID: We have quite a lot of PDP-8 MAINDEC which are duplicates even when taking different versions into account. This include the paper listing and the actual paper tape. Is there an interest in such tapes / documentation? From macro at linux-mips.org Mon May 2 02:13:45 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 08:13:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Any ideas what it might be? I can't help with the chip, except that the manual states it's a 64-Kbyte part. But something has struck me: "When the SROM code has completed its tasks, it normally loads the DROM code and turns control over to it. The SROM checks to see if the DROM contains the proper header and that the checksum is correct. If either check fails, the SROM code reads a location in the TOY NVRAM. The location indicates which console firmware (the SRM or the ARC) should be loaded." -- I think it's highly unlikely that DROM is corrupted *and* it passes the checksum test *and* corrupt DROM code works well enough to progress through any POST stages at all (i.e. change LEDs to anything beyond what SROM has left). So I wonder what else might be causing the symptoms you have seen. SROM console output undoubtedly might help here as DROM might be reporting what it does not like, about NVRAM presumably. One possibility I have in mind is it's something peculiar about DRAM. As you may have been aware DROM code isn't run directly, it's loaded by SROM into DRAM. If it fails a specific bit pattern at a specific location for some reason, then you might see symptoms like these. So shuffling DRAM modules might change something here. Other than that maybe it's NVRAM after all. But what could it be then that did not show up in your testing? Could it be that the settings and environment variables stored there are protected with a checksum (or a signature) which happened to be correct for the random contents after power was restored and that in turn confused DROM diagnostics? Can you wipe NVRAM with your program, reinstall the DROM chip and see if the error returns? I start running out of ideas, and sorry to have misled you into thinking it might be DROM contents which are wrong -- given the checksum protection I think it's highly unlikely after all. Maciej From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 2 03:47:29 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:47:29 +0200 Subject: Only slightly vintage Message-ID: http://jalopnik.com/this-ancient-laptop-is-the-only-key-to-the-most-valuabl-1773662267?utm_content=buffer6b9d6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer -- Sent from my phone - please pardon brevity & typos. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 2 04:32:37 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:32:37 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 08:59:50PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our > heaps of documentation. > > Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with everything. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf Wow, that last system :) I wonder what the three leftmost cabinets contains. I don't recall what peripherals have the blinkenlights at the top. RK05 and TU10 controllers perhaps? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 2 04:36:58 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:36:58 +0200 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160502093657.GD20677@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 09:50:08AM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > We have quite a lot of PDP-8 MAINDEC which are duplicates even when taking > different versions into account. This include the paper listing and the > actual paper tape. > > Is there an interest in such tapes / documentation? Do you mean interest in digital copies or are you selling? /P From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon May 2 04:57:23 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:57:23 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure In-Reply-To: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 02/05/2016 10:32, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 08:59:50PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: >> I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our >> heaps of documentation. >> >> Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with everything. >> >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf > Wow, that last system :) I wonder what the three leftmost cabinets > contains. I don't recall what peripherals have the blinkenlights at the > top. RK05 and TU10 controllers perhaps? The panel at the top with the display is almost certainly for a disk drive controller Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 05:37:43 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 12:37:43 +0200 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? In-Reply-To: <20160502093657.GD20677@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160502093657.GD20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: 2016-05-02 11:36 GMT+02:00 Pontus Pihlgren : > On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 09:50:08AM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > > We have quite a lot of PDP-8 MAINDEC which are duplicates even when > taking > > different versions into account. This include the paper listing and the > > actual paper tape. > > > > Is there an interest in such tapes / documentation? > > Do you mean interest in digital copies or are you selling? > Selling, trading, giving away. What ever works. Rather than the garbage bin. I have no need for multiple copies. Just checking if someone like to play with the real paper tapes. When it comes to digital copies the plan is to check what is already online and then scan / read those that aren't. But it is a long time plan since it takes quite a while. Unless you feel like helping out... A page feed scanner and a couple of thousands of pages. /Mattis > > /P > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 2 06:14:23 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 13:14:23 +0200 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? In-Reply-To: References: <20160502093657.GD20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20160502111423.GE20677@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 12:37:43PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Selling, trading, giving away. What ever works. Rather than the garbage > bin. I have no need for multiple copies. Just checking if someone like to > play with the real paper tapes. > > When it comes to digital copies the plan is to check what is already online > and then scan / read those that aren't. But it is a long time plan since it > takes quite a while. Unless you feel like helping out... A page feed > scanner and a couple of thousands of pages. > :-) Sounds like a weekend at Dalby. Anyway, actual papertape Maindec is always welcome, with or without listings. I suppose I should pickup that VAX first... /P From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Mon May 2 06:55:47 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 08:55:47 -0300 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? In-Reply-To: <20160502111423.GE20677@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160502093657.GD20677@Update.UU.SE> <20160502111423.GE20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I add myself to the donatiom queue. But since I dont have real gear, I'm the last in order Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 02/05/2016 08:14, "Pontus Pihlgren" escreveu: > On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 12:37:43PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > Selling, trading, giving away. What ever works. Rather than the garbage > > bin. I have no need for multiple copies. Just checking if someone like to > > play with the real paper tapes. > > > > When it comes to digital copies the plan is to check what is already > online > > and then scan / read those that aren't. But it is a long time plan since > it > > takes quite a while. Unless you feel like helping out... A page feed > > scanner and a couple of thousands of pages. > > > > :-) Sounds like a weekend at Dalby. > > Anyway, actual papertape Maindec is always welcome, with or without > listings. I suppose I should pickup that VAX first... > > /P > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 2 08:48:11 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 09:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update Message-ID: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Lancashire > Do you or someone have a list of all the Unibus bus chips ? I have seen the following bus interface chips used on DEC UNIBUS boards: Drivers: 8881 - Sprague, Signetics - Quad NAND Receivers: 380 - Signetics - Quad NOR 314 - Signetics - 7-input NOR 8815 - Signetics - 4-input NOR 8837 - National Semi - Hex receiver (aka Signetics N8T37) 8640 - National Semi - Quad NOR Transceivers: 8641 - National Semi - Quad transceiver The actal complete part number can vary depending on the manufacturer; e.g. the 8641's are usually DS8641N, from NatSemi, and the 380's are usually SP380A's or SP380N's. Where the basic number is not included (as with the 8T37 for the 8837) I have given it. The following chips have been used by DEC to interface to the QBUS, and I have seen many of the above chips (e.g. 8641's) used there too, so I think chips seen on one bus could be used on the other: Drivers: 7439 - Various - Quad NAND Transceivers: 2908 - AMD - Quad latching transceiver with tri-state output I _believe_ the following chips are also usable as UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips, but I'm not sure if I've seen one used there: Transceivers: 8836 - National Semi - Quad NOR 8838 - National Semi - Quad transceiver (aka Signetics N8T38) Quite a zoo! Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 08:56:43 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 15:56:43 +0200 Subject: Parts for CDC CMD drive. Message-ID: http://bit.ly/23iTFO1 A couple of spindle motors, blower and some electronics. For the cost of shipping. /Mattis From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 09:04:26 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:04:26 +0200 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > The following chips have been used by DEC to interface to the QBUS, and > I have seen many of the above chips (e.g. 8641's) used there too, so I > think chips seen on one bus could be used on the other: > > Drivers: > > 7439 - Various - Quad NAND > > Transceivers: > > 2908 - AMD - Quad latching transceiver with tri-state output > > I _believe_ the following chips are also usable as UNIBUS/QBUS interface > chips, but I'm not sure if I've seen one used there: > > Transceivers: > > 8836 - National Semi - Quad NOR > 8838 - National Semi - Quad transceiver (aka Signetics N8T38) > > Quite a zoo! > DEC also used the DEC DC005 for the data and address lines on QBUS cards. The Signetics code is C2324N /Mattis > > Noel > From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 09:17:50 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:17:50 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure In-Reply-To: References: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: 2016-05-02 11:57 GMT+02:00 Rod Smallwood : > > > On 02/05/2016 10:32, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 08:59:50PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >>> I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our >>> heaps of documentation. >>> >>> Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with >>> everything. >>> >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf >>> >> Wow, that last system :) I wonder what the three leftmost cabinets >> contains. I don't recall what peripherals have the blinkenlights at the >> top. RK05 and TU10 controllers perhaps? >> > The panel at the top with the display is almost certainly for a disk drive > controller > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > I think that the top blinkenlights panel in the second from left cabinet is a RF08 controller. No guess for the other one. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 2 09:55:38 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:55:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure In-Reply-To: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160502093237.GC20677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5B6D994F-6336-4DF3-BCB5-9D92BFCBDD47@comcast.net> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 08:59:50PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > I found a really nice PDP-8/e sales brochure while browsing through our > heaps of documentation. > > Plenty of nice close up photos and as last picture a system with everything. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/pdp8e-sales.pdf "System with everything". Neat. I remember RSTS development had an 11/70 system that was intended to have "two of everything". Everything then supported by RSTS/E, that is. So of course its node name was "ARK". At some point the number of supported peripherals got to the point where they couldn't live on a single machine any longer, either that or we needed more CPU for the team size, and a second machine ("GROK", an 11/44) was added to hold "the rest of the supported devices". Actually, ARK had some unsupported stuff on it, for example an RP07. That worked fine on an 11/70 (though not on any machine -- you needed the high speed Massbus found only there) but DEC never officially supported it. paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 03:39:34 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 09:39:34 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej > W. Rozycki > Sent: 02 May 2016 08:14 > To: Robert Jarratt > Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > On Sun, 1 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > Any ideas what it might be? > > I can't help with the chip, except that the manual states it's a 64-Kbyte part. > But something has struck me: > > "When the SROM code has completed its tasks, it normally loads the DROM > code and turns control over to it. The SROM checks to see if the DROM > contains the proper header and that the checksum is correct. If either check > fails, the SROM code reads a location in the TOY NVRAM. The location > indicates which console firmware (the SRM or the ARC) should be loaded." > > -- I think it's highly unlikely that DROM is corrupted *and* it passes the > checksum test *and* corrupt DROM code works well enough to progress > through any POST stages at all (i.e. change LEDs to anything beyond what > SROM has left). So I wonder what else might be causing the symptoms you > have seen. SROM console output undoubtedly might help here as DROM > might be reporting what it does not like, about NVRAM presumably. I suppose I should find or construct a diagnostic port adapter. I suppose I am slightly put off by the effort needed to make one as I don't have the components needed to hand. I may just have to bite this bullet. > > One possibility I have in mind is it's something peculiar about DRAM. > As you may have been aware DROM code isn't run directly, it's loaded by > SROM into DRAM. If it fails a specific bit pattern at a specific location for > some reason, then you might see symptoms like these. So shuffling DRAM > modules might change something here. I will give this a go, but it seems unlikely as the machine is able to run VMS, and I assume it must be passing at least some basic memory tests. > > Other than that maybe it's NVRAM after all. But what could it be then that > did not show up in your testing? Could it be that the settings and > environment variables stored there are protected with a checksum (or a > signature) which happened to be correct for the random contents after > power was restored and that in turn confused DROM diagnostics? Can you > wipe NVRAM with your program, reinstall the DROM chip and see if the error > returns? This thought has crossed my mind. However, since I had to change the battery that backs up the NVRAM in any case, then surely the memory would have been zeroed? This NVRAM is battery backed, right? The NVRAM does contain data, I have verified this with my program, so something is repopulating it after the battery has been changed. I am slightly reluctant to zero the memory on purpose in case I can no longer boot the machine (I would save the contents before zeroing of course). > > I start running out of ideas, and sorry to have misled you into thinking it > might be DROM contents which are wrong -- given the checksum protection I > think it's highly unlikely after all. Not to worry, your thoughts and suggestions have helped hugely. Thanks again Rob From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon May 2 04:42:21 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 02 May 2016 10:42:21 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 02 May 2016 09:39:34 +0100" <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <"013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$"@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <"20160430165914.C9 5962073C37"@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01PZP5Y5G97O00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> > > > > One possibility I have in mind is it's something peculiar about DRAM. > > As you may have been aware DROM code isn't run directly, it's loaded by > > SROM into DRAM. If it fails a specific bit pattern at a specific location > > some reason, then you might see symptoms like these. So shuffling DRAM > > modules might change something here. > > I will give this a go, but it seems unlikely as the machine is able to run > VMS, and I assume it must be passing at least some basic memory tests. > Perhaps VMS could be working around correctable memory errors that SROM is not able to cope with? If this is the case, $ SHOW ERROR should give a clue and there should be further information in the error log. (I'm not sure how you display that since the functioning of $ ANALYZE /ERROR got messed up on Alpha some time ago.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 2 10:26:02 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8/e sales brochure Message-ID: <20160502152602.56BE218C0F8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pontus Pihlgren > I wonder what the three leftmost cabinets contains. I don't recall what > peripherals have the blinkenlights at the top. RK05 and TU10 > controllers perhaps? I have a half-done page with images of all the 5-1/4 inch indicator panels (PDP-8, -11, -15); so I can identify the indicator panel on the right (above to the two DECTape drives), which is a TC08 DECTape controller (I have a large picture of one of those, for the page, and that's definitely it), which makes sense, given it's in the same cabinet as the DECTape drives. The other one, I have no idea - anyone? I'm pretty sure it's not an RK08. The RK08, like the RK11-C, was wired for an indicator panel, but like the TM08, it only used two rows of lights. (I've never seen an image of one: this is deduced from reading the engineering drawings.) The partial page is here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html if anyone is interested. Good images of the missing 5-1/4" indicator panels (which also include the RF11 and FP15, as well as the mythical RK11, which may not exist) gratefully accepted! Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 11:47:33 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 17:47:33 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> > I suppose I should find or construct a diagnostic port adapter. I suppose I am > slightly put off by the effort needed to make one as I don't have the > components needed to hand. I may just have to bite this bullet. > I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types of connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board. What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go into a 2x5 connector, but which don't have a lot of space at the sides? I have posted a picture of the connector here: http://bit.ly/1SV6QBX. It is the black 2x5 connector in the middle marked J7. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 11:47:33 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 17:47:33 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> > I suppose I should find or construct a diagnostic port adapter. I suppose I am > slightly put off by the effort needed to make one as I don't have the > components needed to hand. I may just have to bite this bullet. > I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types of connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board. What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go into a 2x5 connector, but which don't have a lot of space at the sides? I have posted a picture of the connector here: http://bit.ly/1SV6QBX. It is the black 2x5 connector in the middle marked J7. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 12:39:50 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 18:39:50 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <01PZP5Y5G97O00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <"013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$"@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <"20160430165914.C9 5962073C37"@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <01PZP5Y5G 97O00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <006a01d1a499$a1151500$e33f3f00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 02 May 2016 10:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > > > > > > One possibility I have in mind is it's something peculiar about DRAM. > > > As you may have been aware DROM code isn't run directly, it's loaded > > > by SROM into DRAM. If it fails a specific bit pattern at a specific > > > location some reason, then you might see symptoms like these. So > > > shuffling DRAM modules might change something here. > > > > I will give this a go, but it seems unlikely as the machine is able to > > run VMS, and I assume it must be passing at least some basic memory > tests. > > > > Perhaps VMS could be working around correctable memory errors that > SROM is not able to cope with? If this is the case, > > $ SHOW ERROR > That just says: %SHOW-S-NOERRORS, no device errors found > should give a clue and there should be further information in the error log. > (I'm not sure how you display that since the functioning of $ ANALYZE > /ERROR got messed up on Alpha some time ago.) > I tried SHOW MEMORY, but that seemed good. ANALYZE/ERROR said I should install DECevent and run conversion utility. Not sure about that one. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 12:39:50 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 18:39:50 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <01PZP5Y5G97O00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018201d19d81$bcfe4ee0$36faeca0$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <"013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$"@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <"20160430165914.C9 5962073C37"@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <01PZP5Y5G 97O00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <006a01d1a499$a1151500$e33f3f00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 02 May 2016 10:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem > > > > > > > One possibility I have in mind is it's something peculiar about DRAM. > > > As you may have been aware DROM code isn't run directly, it's loaded > > > by SROM into DRAM. If it fails a specific bit pattern at a specific > > > location some reason, then you might see symptoms like these. So > > > shuffling DRAM modules might change something here. > > > > I will give this a go, but it seems unlikely as the machine is able to > > run VMS, and I assume it must be passing at least some basic memory > tests. > > > > Perhaps VMS could be working around correctable memory errors that > SROM is not able to cope with? If this is the case, > > $ SHOW ERROR > That just says: %SHOW-S-NOERRORS, no device errors found > should give a clue and there should be further information in the error log. > (I'm not sure how you display that since the functioning of $ ANALYZE > /ERROR got messed up on Alpha some time ago.) > I tried SHOW MEMORY, but that seemed good. ANALYZE/ERROR said I should install DECevent and run conversion utility. Not sure about that one. Regards Rob From north at alum.mit.edu Mon May 2 13:07:21 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:07:21 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57279759.40506@alum.mit.edu> On 5/2/2016 7:04 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> The following chips have been used by DEC to interface to the QBUS, and >> I have seen many of the above chips (e.g. 8641's) used there too, so I >> think chips seen on one bus could be used on the other: >> >> Drivers: >> >> 7439 - Various - Quad NAND >> >> Transceivers: >> >> 2908 - AMD - Quad latching transceiver with tri-state output >> >> I _believe_ the following chips are also usable as UNIBUS/QBUS interface >> chips, but I'm not sure if I've seen one used there: >> >> Transceivers: >> >> 8836 - National Semi - Quad NOR >> 8838 - National Semi - Quad transceiver (aka Signetics N8T38) >> >> Quite a zoo! >> > DEC also used the DEC DC005 for the data and address lines on QBUS cards. > The Signetics code is C2324N DEC also used the DC005 (8 pcs) for address / data interface on the M8739 KLESI (Aztec/RC25) UNIBUS interface card. DC013's were used for the NPR/NPG and BR/BG logic. Don From thebri at gmail.com Mon May 2 13:07:36 2016 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 14:07:36 -0400 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I did a bit of searching in the fall for an 8881 (to fix a busted HALT instruction on a PDP8a). I concluded the 7439 is a pin-for-pin replacement - I can't claim all credit for this, it's probably known by a few people here. My notes say the 8881 will handle 30mA loads. The 7401 will handle 16mA, while the 7439 will handle 80mA. Cheers! b On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > The following chips have been used by DEC to interface to the QBUS, and > > I have seen many of the above chips (e.g. 8641's) used there too, so I > > think chips seen on one bus could be used on the other: > > > > Drivers: > > > > 7439 - Various - Quad NAND > > > > Transceivers: > > > > 2908 - AMD - Quad latching transceiver with tri-state output > > > > I _believe_ the following chips are also usable as UNIBUS/QBUS interface > > chips, but I'm not sure if I've seen one used there: > > > > Transceivers: > > > > 8836 - National Semi - Quad NOR > > 8838 - National Semi - Quad transceiver (aka Signetics N8T38) > > > > Quite a zoo! > > > > DEC also used the DEC DC005 for the data and address lines on QBUS cards. > The Signetics code is C2324N > > /Mattis > > > > > > Noel > > > From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 2 14:59:08 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 21:59:08 +0200 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. Message-ID: Yet another nice color brochure. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to explain how that works? If I read the fine print on the back correctly (and comparing with the others) I would guess that this brochure is from 1971. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 2 15:21:09 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:21:09 -0400 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 2, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Yet another nice color brochure. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf > > Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red > and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to > explain how that works? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate the second. I think Tektronix made monitors of this type, but apparently GE invented them. I remember hearing about that technology in the 1970s; I never actually saw one in the wild (from any manufacturer). > If I read the fine print on the back correctly (and comparing with the > others) I would guess that this brochure is from 1971. Assuming that 00771 is a date code, yes. The cover photo is interesting (PDP11 with PDP12 color scheme!) but the console looks like an LA30. I didn't know those were out in 1971. The first (and fortunately only) one I encountered was in 1974. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 2 15:32:25 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 13:32:25 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <101af11c-e6c0-f766-5582-57a18fdb932d@bitsavers.org> On 5/2/16 1:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I think Tektronix made monitors of this type Tek 1241 http://www.barrytech.com/tektronix/logic_analyzers/tek1241.html and DAS 9100 logic analyzers used them. You could get red, green, and yellow From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 2 15:35:21 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 13:35:21 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: <101af11c-e6c0-f766-5582-57a18fdb932d@bitsavers.org> References: <101af11c-e6c0-f766-5582-57a18fdb932d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6f631e27-1a09-0075-9dbf-277289cc378c@bitsavers.org> On 5/2/16 1:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/2/16 1:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> I think Tektronix made monitors of this type > > Tek 1241 > http://www.barrytech.com/tektronix/logic_analyzers/tek1241.html > and DAS 9100 logic analyzers used them. > You could get red, green, and yellow http://www.barrytech.com/tektronix/logic_analyzers/tekdas9100.html From anders at abc80.net Mon May 2 12:18:36 2016 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 19:18:36 +0200 Subject: PDP8 MAINDEC ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 12:37:43 +0200 >From: Mattis Lind >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: PDP8 MAINDEC ? > Selling, trading, giving away. What ever works. Rather than the garbage > bin. I have no need for multiple copies. Just checking if someone like to > play with the real paper tapes. > When it comes to digital copies the plan is to check what is already online > and then scan / read those that aren't. But it is a long time plan since it > takes quite a while. Unless you feel like helping out... A page feed scanner and a couple of thousands of pages. > > /Mattis I can take good care of (some part of) it, a bit depending on which tapes and documents you have. /Anders From mark at markesystems.com Mon May 2 13:43:49 2016 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:43:49 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> > I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit > hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked > small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which > might > be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. VB4 was a bridge between 16-bit Windows 3.1 applications and 32-bit everything later (such as the DOS-based Win-95, -98, and -ME, and all of the NT-based operating systems, which is everything else through Win-10 64-bit). As such, the package included both a 16-bit an 32-bit compiler. If your application was compiled using the 16-bit version, you're pretty much stuck with XP-32 or earlier (in a VM, if necessary), as it will automatically spawn a 16-bit virtual environment (ntvdm.exe) to run the 16-bit applications. Win7 and beyond, and all 64-bit versions, do not support this feature (I supported a VB3 application for 20 years; Win7 was what finally broke it for good.) If it was compiled to 32-bit, then you should be pretty much good to go; you may run into a few insurmountable problems with some now unsupported OCX's. Other than those, all of the 32-bit code should run fine on anything current. If you have the source, you're also in pretty good shape. VB4 is very easy to port to VB6; there were almost no backward-incompatible features of the later Visual Basic classic languages. Find an old copy of VB6 SP6, re-compile it (perhaps replacing some of the failed OCXs with others that will work - a common one was DBGrid, which is quite easy to replace with FlexGrid), and you're golden. I currently support just such an application, and although the development environment requires a couple of tricks to get working smoothly, the compiled application works just fine on Win10-64. Drop me a note off-line if you'd like any additional or more specific help with this; I have a reasonable amount of experience with just this problem. Of course, there are always older versions of Wine... ~~ Mark Moulding From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon May 2 16:39:07 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 14:39:07 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On May 2, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > Yet another nice color brochure. > > > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf > > > > Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red > > and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to > > explain how that works? > > See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are > two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate the > second. > > I'm not sure that the Penetron is what DEC was using; according to http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/vc8e.html: "If the CO (color) bit changes because of the value loaded, and if the VC8E is equipped to handle this option, a timer will be started to set the DN (done) bit after either 300 microseconds (green to red) or 1600 microseconds (red to green). These delays correspond to the time taken by the VR20 display for these color changes." According the Penetron wiki page, additional activation energy was provided by a "set of fine wires placed behind the screen"; whereas the VC8E apparently is setting the color by timing the beam. So yes, it seems to be an activation energy phenomenon, but not specifically the Penetron technology. My physics fu isn't good enough to explain how, but I would guess at some very non-linear phosphorescence response. -- Charles From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon May 2 16:40:41 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 21:40:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1250097222.5022800.1462225241498.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Monday, May 2, 2016 1:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > On May 2, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Yet another nice color brochure. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf > > Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red > and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to > explain how that works? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate the second. I think Tektronix made monitors of this type, but apparently GE invented them.? I remember hearing about that technology in the 1970s; I never actually saw one in the wild (from any manufacturer). > If I read the fine print on the back correctly (and comparing with the > others) I would guess that this brochure is from 1971. Assuming that 00771 is a date code, yes.? The cover photo is interesting (PDP11 with PDP12 color scheme!) but the console looks like an LA30.? I didn't know those were out in 1971.? The first (and fortunately only) one I encountered was in 1974. ??? paul I believe they used a beam penetration tube in the VR20. I have an HP 1338A that uses that technology.Google it, it's interesting. Bob From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon May 2 17:18:24 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 18:18:24 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <5725219A.1070103@sydex.com> References: <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7e49952a-665a-0a86-4aaa-febb6c01cbc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <81f8bf5a-c6a4-4d16-b35a-82d22bdd7d1d@bitsavers.org> <20160429205337.GA89343@night.db.net> <5723E667.5060204@sydex.com> <20160430133911.GA96663@night.db.net> <20160430184359.GA99555@night.db.net> <201604302107.RAA04188@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5725219A.1070103@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2016-04-30 5:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/30/2016 02:07 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> Reading this really gives me the impression that it's time to fork >> C. There seems to me to be a need for two different languages, which >> I might slightly inaccurately call the one C used to be and the one >> it has become (and is becoming). > > > I vividly recall back in the 80s trying to take what we learned about > aggressive optimization of Fortran (or FORTRAN, take your pick) and > apply it to C. One of the tougher nuts was the issue of pointers. > While pointers are typed in C (including void), it's very difficult for > an automatic optimizer to figure out exactly what's being pointed to, > particularly when a pointer is passed as arguments or re-used. Indeed. John Regehr writes more on this in this recent post: http://blog.regehr.org/archives/1307 --Toby > > C++, to be sure, is much better in this respect. > > --Chuck > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 2 17:19:06 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 15:19:06 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1A7E5417-4A5A-4447-A4B1-C7F17AB304BB@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-02, at 2:39 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On May 2, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>> >>> Yet another nice color brochure. >>> >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf >>> >>> Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red >>> and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to >>> explain how that works? >> >> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are >> two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate the >> second. >> > I'm not sure that the Penetron is what DEC was using; according to > http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/vc8e.html: > > "If the CO (color) bit changes because of the value loaded, and if the VC8E > is equipped to handle this option, a timer will be started to set the DN > (done) bit after either 300 microseconds (green to red) or 1600 > microseconds (red to green). These delays correspond to the time taken by > the VR20 display for these color changes." > > According the Penetron wiki page, additional activation energy was provided > by a "set of fine wires placed behind the screen"; whereas the VC8E > apparently is setting the color by timing the beam. > > So yes, it seems to be an activation energy phenomenon, but not > specifically the Penetron technology. My physics fu isn't good enough to > explain how, but I would guess at some very non-linear phosphorescence > response. > Might have had to do with the time taken to switch the HV supply (for a Penetron) for the different penetration levels rather than a different phosphor-exciting scheme. Although, is that interface even at the scan level relating directly to the display tube, or at a controller level where it might be an artifact of the controller electronics? From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon May 2 18:36:38 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:36:38 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: <1A7E5417-4A5A-4447-A4B1-C7F17AB304BB@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1A7E5417-4A5A-4447-A4B1-C7F17AB304BB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 3:19 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-May-02, at 2:39 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Paul Koning > wrote: > >>> On May 2, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >>> > >>> Yet another nice color brochure. > >>> > >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf > >>> > >>> Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a > red > >>> and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to > >>> explain how that works? > >> > >> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are > >> two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate > the > >> second. > >> > > I'm not sure that the Penetron is what DEC was using; according to > > http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/vc8e.html: > > > > "If the CO (color) bit changes because of the value loaded, and if the > VC8E > > is equipped to handle this option, a timer will be started to set the DN > > (done) bit after either 300 microseconds (green to red) or 1600 > > microseconds (red to green). These delays correspond to the time taken by > > the VR20 display for these color changes." > > > > According the Penetron wiki page, additional activation energy was > provided > > by a "set of fine wires placed behind the screen"; whereas the VC8E > > apparently is setting the color by timing the beam. > > > > So yes, it seems to be an activation energy phenomenon, but not > > specifically the Penetron technology. My physics fu isn't good enough to > > explain how, but I would guess at some very non-linear phosphorescence > > response. > > > > Might have had to do with the time taken to switch the HV supply (for a > Penetron) for the different penetration levels rather than a different > phosphor-exciting scheme. Although, is that interface even at the scan > level relating directly to the display tube, or at a controller level where > it might be an artifact of the controller electronics? Context: I have never seen any of these beasts, and I am a s/w guy that dabbles in h/w. All of my opinions herein are derived from my reading DEC documents to write vector display emulators. I may talking through my hat here.... http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-HLPMA-B-D%20LPS11-S%20Laboratory%20Peripheral%20System%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf "3.4.6.2 Green Mode -- ... The intensify pule is used to intensify the point on the scope. ... approximately 1 us." "3.4.6.2 Red Mode -- ... 6 us." I can't locate any VR20 documentation, so other than pulse width input to the VR20 I am unable to speculate further; it may well be that Penetron technology was used, but the wording of the controller made it seem to me otherwise, but I am more than prepared to be wrong -- it is perfectly possible that the VR20 is controlling a Penetron based on the pulse width. -- Charles From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon May 2 18:46:39 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:46:39 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: <1A7E5417-4A5A-4447-A4B1-C7F17AB304BB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > > > I can't locate any VR20 documentation, so other than pulse width input to > the VR20 I am unable to speculate further; it may well be that Penetron > technology was used, but the wording of the controller made it seem to me > otherwise, but I am more than prepared to be wrong -- it is perfectly > possible that the VR20 is controlling a Penetron based on the pulse width. > > Hmm. The Rhode Island Computer Museum has a working VR20. We need to get them to take a look inside it to see what kind of CRT tube is in there.... -- Charles From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon May 2 21:06:14 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 02 May 2016 22:06:14 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler 40th birthday presents... Message-ID: <16ef01d1a4e0$5f39ad20$1dad0760$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Check it out: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/dazzler.html More to come. Bill S. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon May 2 23:48:34 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 22:48:34 -0600 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 2:21 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetron. The idea is that there are two layers, and a high voltage beam pokes through the first to activate the second. > I think Tektronix made monitors of this type, but apparently GE invented them. I remember hearing about that technology in the 1970s; I never actually saw one in the wild (from any manufacturer). I'd never heard it called a "Penetron" before; I'm not sure if that was a trademark (perhaps of GE), but the generic term was "beam penetration CRT". I've never seen the DEC VR20, but I have an HP 1338A color XY display that uses this technology to produce multicolor displays with red, green, and yellow. Although the technology was invented for color TV, I've never seen a beam penetration CRT with any blue phosphor. I hadn't heard of it being used in Tektronix oscilloscopes, but I'm not surprised. They also used it in the DAS9120 series logic analyzers, with the DAS9129 mainframe being the color display versions of the more common DAS9100, and in the later 1241 logic analyzer. As with the HP 1338A, the colors are red, green, and yellow. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon May 2 23:50:46 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 22:50:46 -0600 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: <1A7E5417-4A5A-4447-A4B1-C7F17AB304BB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > Hmm. The Rhode Island Computer Museum has a working VR20. We need to get > them to take a look inside it to see what kind of CRT tube is in there.... It hardly matters, since it's a beam penetration CRT that was custom made for DEC and isn't used in *anything* else. Barring a major miracle, the only way you'll ever get another suitable tube is out of another VR20. From macro at linux-mips.org Mon May 2 16:56:05 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 22:56:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Other than that maybe it's NVRAM after all. But what could it be then > that > > did not show up in your testing? Could it be that the settings and > > environment variables stored there are protected with a checksum (or a > > signature) which happened to be correct for the random contents after > > power was restored and that in turn confused DROM diagnostics? Can you > > wipe NVRAM with your program, reinstall the DROM chip and see if the error > > returns? > > > This thought has crossed my mind. However, since I had to change the battery > that backs up the NVRAM in any case, then surely the memory would have been > zeroed? This NVRAM is battery backed, right? The NVRAM does contain data, I > have verified this with my program, so something is repopulating it after > the battery has been changed. I am slightly reluctant to zero the memory on > purpose in case I can no longer boot the machine (I would save the contents > before zeroing of course). I don't think you can assume power-cycling NVRAM (which is effectively what you've done here by putting a new battery) will zero it. It would if there was some kind of a reset signal asserted at poweron that would set the flip-flops to a known state. But the KM6264B chip does not appear to have such a feature, nor an external reset input. So we need to assume its contents are random after a powerup. Have you ever used Sinclair ZX Spectrum? It had its video adapter active from powerup and you could briefly see the random contents of video RAM on the screen. I understand your reluctance. The NVRAM is indeed supposed to be backed with the same battery the RTC is. There's just a slight chance the battery circuit is not operating correctly. There's no battery status bit in the NVRAM, but there is one in the RTC. You should be able to verify it with: >>> d -b pmem:1c0000e00 0d >>> e -b pmem:1c0000e20 this will read BQ4285 RTC chip's register D. If this comes out as 80, then the battery is giving power to the chip. If this is 00, then there is no battery power available. Of course a broken PCB trace could make battery power reach one of the two chips only. BTW, does your SRM console have a TEST command? If so, then have you tried it? Of course it might want to call into DROM and thus fail rather spectacularly if it's absent, but chances are it might not and you may get useful output from it. Maciej From aloha at blastpuppy.com Mon May 2 21:51:52 2016 From: aloha at blastpuppy.com (Robert Johnson) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 19:51:52 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> Message-ID: <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> While I can?t however speak to the vagaries of VB4 specifically, I?m reasonably certain (having run 16-bit only software on windows 7 and 8) that ll 32-bit versions of windows continue to support NTVDM/16-bit applications. With windows 8 you have to install the subsystem (its not installed by default) but it does work. Robert Johnson --- Telegram: @alohawolf AIM:AlohaWulf Skype:AlohaWolf Telephone:+1-562-286-4255 C*NET: 18219881 Email:aloha at blastpuppy.com Email:alohawolf at gmail.com -- "Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of "crackpot" than the stigma of conformity." - Thomas J. Watson Sr. > On May 2, 2016, at 11:43 AM, mark at markesystems.com wrote: > >> I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run on modern 64-bit >> hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked >> small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might >> be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days. > > VB4 was a bridge between 16-bit Windows 3.1 applications and 32-bit everything later (such as the DOS-based Win-95, -98, and -ME, and all of the NT-based operating systems, which is everything else through Win-10 64-bit). As such, the package included both a 16-bit an 32-bit compiler. If your application was compiled using the 16-bit version, you're pretty much stuck with XP-32 or earlier (in a VM, if necessary), as it will automatically spawn a 16-bit virtual environment (ntvdm.exe) to run the 16-bit applications. Win7 and beyond, and all 64-bit versions, do not support this feature (I supported a VB3 application for 20 years; Win7 was what finally broke it for good.) > > If it was compiled to 32-bit, then you should be pretty much good to go; you may run into a few insurmountable problems with some now unsupported OCX's. Other than those, all of the 32-bit code should run fine on anything current. > > If you have the source, you're also in pretty good shape. VB4 is very easy to port to VB6; there were almost no backward-incompatible features of the later Visual Basic classic languages. Find an old copy of VB6 SP6, re-compile it (perhaps replacing some of the failed OCXs with others that will work - a common one was DBGrid, which is quite easy to replace with FlexGrid), and you're golden. I currently support just such an application, and although the development environment requires a couple of tricks to get working smoothly, the compiled application works just fine on Win10-64. > > Drop me a note off-line if you'd like any additional or more specific help with this; I have a reasonable amount of experience with just this problem. > > Of course, there are always older versions of Wine... > ~~ > Mark Moulding > From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 2 22:24:41 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 20:24:41 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> Message-ID: <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> On 05/02/2016 07:51 PM, Robert Johnson wrote: > > While I can?t however speak to the vagaries of VB4 specifically, I?m > reasonably certain (having run 16-bit only software on windows 7 and > 8) that ll 32-bit versions of windows continue to support > NTVDM/16-bit applications. With windows 8 you have to install the > subsystem (its not installed by default) but it does work. That's the rub--I believe that Mark said that he was using Win 10 64-bit. The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit mode. WINE is probably pretty good, or DOSBox, or VirtualBox--something that can emulate/translate the 16-bit code to something that 64 bit Windows can run. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon May 2 23:54:54 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 21:54:54 -0700 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 2, 2016 9:48 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > > I hadn't heard of it being used in Tektronix oscilloscopes, but I'm > not surprised. They also used it in the DAS9120 series logic > analyzers, with the DAS9129 mainframe being the color display versions > of the more common DAS9100, and in the later 1241 logic analyzer. As > with the HP 1338A, the colors are red, green, and yellow. I thought the 1241 used a conventional CRT with a Liquid Crystal Color Shutter in front of it. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 01:06:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 23:06:12 -0700 Subject: Only slightly vintage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57283FD4.2020902@sydex.com> On 05/02/2016 01:47 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > http://jalopnik.com/this-ancient-laptop-is-the-only-key-to-the-most-valuabl-1773662267 The comments from the kids are a riot--and causes me to despair. i.e., COBALT? --Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 3 01:19:12 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 08:19:12 +0200 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160503061912.GA18289@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 09:59:08PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > Yet another nice color brochure. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/lab11.pdf > > Has anyone seen a VR20 in real? Rather interesting to be able to do a red > and green X/Y screen based on different energy levels. Someone care to > explain how that works? Unfortunately not. The printset that came with my GAMMA-11 suggests that it should be used with a three color scope. Unfortunately I didn't get the scope. /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 3 01:23:35 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 08:23:35 +0200 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160503062334.GB18289@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 04:21:09PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > > The cover photo is interesting (PDP11 with PDP12 color scheme!) > It's the "LAB" color scheme. There was a LAB-8/e which has the same colors. And there was at least one blue PDP-12 and one orange. I think the market segment or purpose dictated the color more than anything. /P From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 3 08:01:10 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:01:10 +0200 Subject: Plan9 and Inferno (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from) In-Reply-To: <1722910236.2821634.1461941486317.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1722910236.2821634.1461941486317.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1722910236.2821634.1461941486317.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 16:51, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > On Thu, 4/28/16, Liam Proven wrote: >>>> The efforts to fix and improve Unix -- Plan 9, Inferno -- forgotten. >> >> It is, true, but it's a sideline now. And the steps made by Inferno >> seem to have had even less impact. I'd like to see the 2 merged back >> into 1. > > Actually, it's best not to think of Inferno as a successor to Plan 9, but > as an offshoot. Understood. I *think* I understand the motivations for wanting Plan 9 over Inferno, for example retaining fondness for native CPU compilation over VMs -- but TBH, given the relatively small influence of either platform on the wider world, and the close relationship between them, I don't see there being sufficient differentiation to keep both alive. But I do not understand the OSes, the communities and so on well enough; mine is an outsider's perspective. > The real story has more to do with Lucent internal > dynamics than to do with attempting to develop a better research > platform. Plan 9 has always been a good platform for research, and > the fact that it's the most pleasant development environment I've > ever used is a nice plus. However, Inferno was created to be a > platform for products. Well, yes, but Java won that war, ISTM. And now that Java is losing that niche too, it's time to strike out for new ground, IMHO. > The Inferno kernel was basically forked from > the 2nd Edition Plan9 kernel, and naturally there are some places > that differ from the current 4th Edition Plan 9 kernel. However, a > number of the differences have been resolved over the years, and > the same guy does most of the maintenance of the compiler suite that's > used for native Inferno builds and for Plan 9. Although you usually > can't just drop driver code from one kernel into the other, the differences > are not so great as to make the port difficult. So both still exist and > both still get some development as people who care decide to make > changes, but they've never really been in a position to merge. > > And BTW, if you like the objectives of the Limbo language in Inferno, > you'll find a lot of the ideas and lessons learned from it in Go. After > all, Rob Pike and Ken Thompson were two of the main people behind > Go and, of course, they had been at the labs, primarily working on > Plan 9, before moving to Google. I am sure you're right but as a non-programmer myself, I'm not very interested in new languages for the traditional Unix stack. It's the OS stuff that interests me personally. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Tue May 3 08:50:23 2016 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (fritz_chwolka@web.de) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:50:23 +0200 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler 40th birthday presents... In-Reply-To: <16ef01d1a4e0$5f39ad20$1dad0760$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <16ef01d1a4e0$5f39ad20$1dad0760$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5728AC9F.5000905@web.de> Am 03.05.2016 um 04:06 schrieb Bill Sudbrink: > Check it out: > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/dazzler.html > > More to come. > > Bill S. > > > > Look at : http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/manuals/dazzler/index.html greetings From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 3 07:54:27 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:54:27 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> Message-ID: On 2 May 2016 at 20:43, wrote: > If you have the source, you're also in pretty good shape. The OP has specifically stated that he does not have the source, and that the company which wrote the app no longer exists. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 3 07:57:01 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:57:01 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit > mode. I think you mean software? It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've done it. http://www.howtogeek.com/171395/how-to-get-windows-xp-mode-on-windows-8/ This *might* work on Win10. I have also successfully run the XP Mode VM using VirtualBox under Ubuntu; I described how to here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/04/10/how_to_run_xp_on_new_windows/ However, this requires either a licence key or stripping the copy-protection out of Windows. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue May 3 09:20:06 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 07:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit >> mode. > > > I think you mean software? > > It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've done it. > > http://www.howtogeek.com/171395/how-to-get-windows-xp-mode-on-windows-8/ > > This *might* work on Win10. > The issue is that with 64 bit versions of windows, the 16 bit thunking layer isn't present. The simplest way to do this is to grab VMWare Player (free download) and then create a Win98 VM. Google can point to a number of downloadable, ready-to-run Win98SE VMs. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue May 3 09:28:42 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 10:28:42 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler 40th birthday presents... In-Reply-To: <5728AC9F.5000905@web.de> References: <16ef01d1a4e0$5f39ad20$1dad0760$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <5728AC9F.5000905@web.de> Message-ID: <177301d1a548$18b15c00$4a141400$@sudbrink@verizon.net> fritz_chwolka at web.de wrote: > Look at : > http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/manuals/dazzler/index.html Thanks. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 3 09:40:50 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:40:50 -0400 Subject: Fwd: RSTS and slow DECnet operation in SIMH References: Message-ID: For those of you running DECnet/E on simulators... paul > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Paul Koning > Subject: Re: RSTS and slow DECnet operation in SIMH > Date: May 2, 2016 at 1:37:45 PM EDT > To: SIMH > >> >> On Apr 19, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> With help from Mark Pizzolato, I've been looking at why RSTS (DECnet/E) operates so slowly when it's dealing with one way transfers. This is independent of protocol and datalink type; it shows up very clearly in NFT (any kind of file transfer or directory listing) and also in NET (Set Host). The symptom is that data comes across in fairly short bursts, separated by about a second of pause. >> >> This turns out to be an interaction between the DECnet/E queueing rules and the very fast operation of SIMH on modern hosts. DECnet/E will queue up to some small number of NSP segments for any given connection, set by the executor parameter "data transmit queue max". The default value is 4 or 5, but it can be set higher, and that helps some. >> >> The trouble is this: if you have a one way data flow, for example NFT or FAL doing a copy, the sending program simply fires off a sequence of send-packet operations until it gets a "queue full" reject from the kernel. At that point it delays, but the delay is one second since sleep operations have one second granularity. The other end acks all that data quite promptly, but since the emulation runs so fast, the whole transmit queue can fill up before the ack from the other end arrives, so the queue full condition occurs, then a one second delay, then the process starts over. >> >> This sort of thing doesn't happen on request/response exchanges; for example the NCP command LOOP NODE runs at top speed because traffic is going both ways. >> >> I tried fiddling with the data queue limit to see if increasing it would help. It seems to, but it's not sufficient. What does work is a larger queue limit (32 looks good) combined with CPU throttling to slow things down a bit. I used "set throttle 2000/1" (which produces a 1 ms delay every 2000 instructions, i.e., roughly 2 MIPS processing speed which is at the high end of what real PDP-11s can do). Those two changes combined make file transfer run smoothly and fast. >> >> Ideally DECnet/E should cancel the program sleep when the queue transitions from full to not-full, but that's not part of the existing logic (at least not unless the program explicitly asks for "link status notifications"). I could probably add that; the question is how large a change it is -- does it exceed what's feasible for a patch. I may still do that, but at least for now the above should be helpful. > > Followup: I created a patch that implements the "wake up when the queue goes not-full". Or more precisely, it wakes up the process whenever an ack is received; that covers the probem case and probably doesn't create many other wakeups since the program is unlikely to be sleeping otherwise. > > The attached patch script does the job. This is for RSTS V10.1. I will take a look at RSTS 9.6; the patch is unlikely to apply there (offsets probably don't match) but the concept will apply there too. I don't have other DECnet/E versions, let alone source listings which is what's needed to create the patch. > > With this patch, you can run at full emulation speed, with the default queue limit (5). In fact, I would recommend setting that limit; if you make the queue limit significantly larger, the patch doesn't help and things are still slow. I suspect that comes from overrunning the queue limits at the receiving end. (Note that DECnet/E leaves the flow control choice to the application, and most use "no" flow control, i.e., on/off only which isn't effective if the sender can overrun the buffer pool of the receiver.) > > To apply the patch, give it to ONLPAT and select the monitor SIL (just will give you the installed one). Or you can do it with the PATCH option at boot time, in that case enter the information manually. The manual will spell this out some more, I expect. > > I have no idea if this issue can appear on real PDP-11 systems. Possibly, if you have a fast CPU, a fast network (Ethernet) and enough latency to make the issue visible (more than a few milliseconds but way under a second). In any case, it's unlikely to hurt, and it clearly helps a great deal in emulated systems. > > paul > -------------- next part -------------- > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 09:55:07 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 07:55:07 -0700 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5728BBCB.4070805@sydex.com> On 05/03/2016 05:57 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit >> mode. > > > I think you mean software? > > It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've > done it. I'll retrench and restate that in terms of "it depends". If your CPU doesn't support Hardware Virtualization Mode, you're out of luck: http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/5460/our-look-at-xp-mode-in-windows-7/ You'll note that I did suggest VirtualBox with my initial post. I've run a variety of "antique" systems under it (under Linux), including Microsoft Unix (the SysVR4 variant). That it works has saved me a lot of trouble over the years. I don't know how long we'll have any sort of native capability to run 16-bit code without emulation, however. Of course, anything can be run (more slowly) under emulation or on-the-fly conversion. You'll perhaps recall when, a couple of years ago, the Debian kernel release disabled 16-bit segment descriptors, citing it as a security issue, causing a minor kerfuffle. Linus quickly admitted that it was a mistake--so score one for the oldsters. --Chuck From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Tue May 3 10:12:39 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:12:39 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: Hey everyone, First I want to say thanks to everyone for ideas. I've lobbed the question of whether anything really needs to be done back at the company in question. It's possible that we can limp along or we don't need to do anything. What generated this particular inquiry is that I am putting together a Windows Server 2012 Remote Desktop Services server. This server will be in part a daily driver for some important applications for the company. This RDS server will also allow us to continue company operations in the event of a disaster. We have primary on site back ups and replications to a remote site in which the bare metal backups can be pressed into service as virtual machines should the need arise such as in the case of a local disaster, prolonged power or network outage, and more. Windows Server 2012 is 64-bit only. To my knowledge there is no way to run 16 bit applications aside from virtually. Furthermore I have determined definitively that this particular application was compiled in 16-bit only. I searched for the source code yesterday and I was not able to find it. Granted I haven't been with the firm since the 1990s so I really only have a bare understanding of where I could possibly go look. This particular company has a lot of legacy equipment sitting in a high-rise in Houston, Texas. There are a lot of Compaq machines among many other types of devices, tapes, drives and more hanging around. It is certainly possible that anyone of those storage media contains the source code, but I have no idea whether any of that stuff is even readable or where to start looking. The credits screen of the software shows an older oil company that, I believe, no longer exists. However some of the employees of that particular company are still around and are affiliated with the organization that I am working with. It's unlikely but possible that somebody remembers this particular bit of software. It's also unlikely but possible that the original author is among those people. If I can find the source code, I will do my best to get it upgraded to at least Visual Basic 6 so we can run in 32 bit mode. Since I have no idea where the source code is I really don't have a lot of hope for this. In all likelihood I will attempt to either build a Windows XP virtual machine or perhaps a windows 98 virtual machine. This presents a few administrative challenges but it may be possible. But at the moment the question may be moot. The company may come back and say forget it. I sort of hope they do. I respectfully request that if there are any follow-ups to this particular message that they be sent to me privately. As I said in the original post I think that this skirts the boundaries of off-topic. I now believe that the topic is off-topic. I don't think this list needs to be cluttered up further with anymore of this discussion. Thank you all again for some really great ideas and tips. Cheers, Mike Whalen From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 3 10:24:37 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:24:37 -0400 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: Mike, Have you tried running virtual 2000 professional, running a Win 3.1 16-bit emulator ("or some form of Win 3.1 emulator within a virtual machine bridge")? From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Tue May 3 10:42:44 2016 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 08:42:44 -0700 Subject: Trying to repair a Smith-Corona letter quality "printer" Message-ID: I picked up a Smith-Corona Memory Correct 400 Messenger typewriter at Goodwill last week. It has the daisy wheel but no ribbon. I debated getting it since I already have enough retro stuff around the house, but every single time I?m at a Goodwill I look at all the typewriters to see if they have some kind of serial or parallel port. This one has a DE9 connector on the back which can be connected to a computer using an external box called a Messenger Module, which I also have. I plugged it in at the store and the typewriter didn't power up. They gave me 10 bucks off so I couldn?t resist and bought it. I?m hoping it?s an easy fix, but I can?t figure out how to get the thing apart at all! The four screws in the bottom just hold the plastic case to the metal frame, and removing them didn?t allow the case to come apart. I can?t figure out how to get the two plastic halves separated. There's no screws in the top and no other screws in the bottom. The plastic halves aren't welded together around the outside, I can wedge a screwdriver between them all the way around. There seems to be something holding the halves together near the four corners. Does anyone have any idea of how to get this thing open (without breaking the plastic)? I?ve searched all over the internet but I can?t find any scanned service manuals. The typewriter is from 1984 and was sold for $600 new so it doesn't seem to me like it would be a "disposable" item so there has to be a way to open it and service it. From what I can tell the 200/300/400 all use the same case, and the Memory Correct II/III use a very similar case, so info for any of those may help. I posted an album here: http://imgur.com/a/SxfTE and a YouTube video here: http://youtu.be/ryDl0Qvl7Gk Any assistance in opening the case without breaking it will be greatly appreciated! :-) -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 10:41:49 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 17:41:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hi Bob, many thanks for your email and for sharing the photos. Obviously the 1603 has a different processor card set (5604 as can be seen from your photographs). So this is quite interesting as it shows, that the chronology was 1602 (9 PCB processor), 1603 (5604, 4 PCB procrssor), 1602B (5605, 2-PCB sandwich processor). Yours seems to have TTY in slot 13 and there are 5 IO slots (15- 11) as on the original 1602 (1602B has got more due to the re- duced number of PCBs in the CPU). The CPI controlling the panel in your case is at the very end opposite to the power supply and inbetween you have got two core stacks - in total 32kW I think. A 1602B can hold 64kW of memory (only accessible via a banking function proprietary to Rolm, so not usable e.g. for RDOS). Have you ever powered on your 1666 with the 1648 panel? Although the 1666 was quite popular in the US I think the non US customers preferred the MSE14 due to better compatibility with the DG Eclipse series... Very interesting and again many thanks for sharing! Erik. On Sun, 1 May 2016, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 4/27/2016 10:12 PM, Erik Baigar wrote: >> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> >>> I have my Rolm 1603 working. No peripherals hooked to it, but you can >>> toggle in stuff from the front panel. >>> http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/rolm1603_f.jpg >> >> Very cool, Bob - we have been in touch seom years ago and >> great, that your machine is still alive! Many thanks for the >> picture and two questions out of curiosity: >> >> (1) The panel is mounted on the rear side (where memory is) of >> the processor. Is it wired and powered internally or do >> you have to connect the panel to the plugs of the >> processor externally? >> (2) The 1603 uses the same 5605 processor "sandwich" also >> used by the 1602B and not the 9PCBs of the earlier 1602s? >> >> Keep up taking care of your Rolm, its a very nice and rare >> machine... >> >> Erik > Yes, the panel is mounted near the memory and plugs into the bus. > > I think it's the 5605 processor, four CPU boards + some I/O. > > More photos of it can be found here: > > http://www.dvq.com/rolm/ > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 3 10:56:59 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 09:56:59 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment Message-ID: Back in the early 90's I remember that many times I'd see a print advertisement for a Video Toaster or a new genlock card, they'd say things like "features you'd have to pay thousands for in a professional paintbox or titler!" I always wondered what they were talking about, since I'd never seen how broadcast was done back then (and still don't know). So, I'm really talking about the tech of the 80's (since that's what the marketing folks were referring to, I assume). Here's what I could find that I'm speculating were the "competition" of the time: The Quantel Paintbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantel_Paintbox Superpaint running on a DG Nova 800 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superpaint The Bosch FGS 4000 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oyGaEu7D7s These are about the only ones I could find. Does anyone know of any others? Also, here are my favorite paint and 2D animation programs of yore. If you guys have others that you loved and remember, what were they? DOS 1. Deluxe Paint II Enhanced 2. PC Paintbrush 3. Autodesk Animator 4. Paul Mace's GRASP 5. Deluxe Paint Animation Amiga 1. Photogenics 2. Photon Paint 3. TVPaint 4. Brilliance 5. Disney Animation Studio Sorry, I didn't use the Mac enough to form any favorites, though I did love Fractal Design Painter (now Corel Painter). -Swift From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 10:45:48 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 17:45:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5722C4D9.8080000@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, thanks for the additional explanations. > in the hardware lab, 99.999% of ARTS/32 (and all of the Marvin) > development took place on commercial DG hardware -- MV/8000s for > ARTS/32, MV/10000s for Marvin (with MV/4000s used as target machines). OK, that is helpful information - Stephen Merrony in the UK is taking care of the MV series hardware/software/documentation and he has some manuals on his page which enlightened me regarding MV/Hawk32 instructions and usage: http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk/dg/doku.php > It's funny that you mention the MSE14; it was the other punch done by > ROLM, basically a S140 stuffed into a 1/2 ATR chassis. What I have got is even smaller - called MSE14/Micro, it is 1/4 ATR with a CPU on only two cards thightly packed together back-to-back to ensure short connections and each full with discrete chips (AMD ALU, sequencer, 32kW RAM and memory map; photographs show both sides of the heavy CPU sandwich) - http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/MSE14-CPU-Arithmetics-Memory.jpg http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/MSE14-CPU-Microcode-Integer.jpg it even has got a hardware multiplier doing 16*16->32 in one processor cycle - so quite fast for those days. With the >20MHz, these are running at, I can imagine that the "full size" MSE14 may have had timing problems with the CPU distributed to several cards (and many plugs for the signals have to pass). > "Eagle" was DG's name for the MV architecture; ROLM's "Hawk" was a play > on "Eagle" ;) Indeed - ;-) > which explains why we're > only now in the process of changing out the 1970's 370-derived computers > in the E-3. Hmm, I am not sure if this is a positive development. Special care has to be taken to make the software robust and independent of access to the internet. One does not want to run into trouble with viruses etc. in such a context ;-) > In the case of the Hawk this was known > internally as the "one second architectural verification", but running > on the simulator it took approximately forever to finish, Very funny - and understandable. Even in case of the MSE14 this BITE implemtend in microcode takes several seconds and it is easy to understand that it must have required a looooong time in the 1990ties if simulated. > EventDetect (tm, no less) was basically a > PN diode that would conduct in the presence of radiation events and > non-destructively crowbar the power supply, after which the machine > would execute a normal power-fail auto-restart (the joys of core). Hmm - here I am not sure. I just discovered, that I am proud owner of PCBs called "Event Detect" with part number 7100A - so they really existed, at least if mine are the right ones; They are IO boards and therefore I doubt they short the power supply. At some time in the future I will have a closer look to see what is on them. [snip] > > (Access Protection Module or Mode or whatever (?)). This option is > > not listed in the standard IO options and to my knowledge is a very > > early form (dated before 1974) of such a feature ;-) > > Way before my time. I assiduously avoided all contact with the 16XX > stuff, ;-) I think it is worth starting a separate thread here on the question which early systems had a facility for memory and IO protection facility. I still think, that 1975 is quite early for a Minicomputer architecture. > Toshiba America Electronic Components. We did the MIPS-derived core in > the CPU2 chip of the Sony PS/2 -- the so-called "Emotion Engine". From all your comments I am quite sure, that you had a very interesting business life so far - congratulations! Many thanks again and best regards, Erik. On Sun, 1 May 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > > On 5/1/16 04:10, Erik Baigar wrote: > >> sorry, but there emerged more questions from my side ;-) > > It's a trip down memory lane ;) > >> >> On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: >> >>> Hawk, but not the odd S/140 and MV/8000 punches) and software (ARTS, >>> ARTS/32) were ROLM designs. >> >> I only know ARTS from ads being sold on eBay - this is some >> form od Ada development environment (or a complete OS?)? The >> acronym probably means something like "Ada Real Time System" (?). > > Advanced Real Time System. Memory resident with hard latency limits for > servicing interrupts; it had nothing to do with the Ada compiler. > >> >> Was this a cross compiler tool or did it run natively on the >> hardware? As there is a /32 variant, do you think a variant >> for the 16 bit machines like 16xx or MSE14 did survive some- >> where? > > ARTS/32 was for Eagle architecture machines and actually made use of the > rings :P. Prior to the Hawk there was a punch (basically a > militarization of DG's prints) of the MV/8000 of which something like > three were sold; it was about the size of a large modern refrigerator > and was sufficiently massive that it had large lifting rings on the top > of the cabinet; while sometime someone would fire up the one that lurked > in the hardware lab, 99.999% of ARTS/32 (and all of the Marvin) > development took place on commercial DG hardware -- MV/8000s for > ARTS/32, MV/10000s for Marvin (with MV/4000s used as target machines). > > I have no idea if any of the software survived anywhere :( > > It's funny that you mention the MSE14; it was the other punch done by > ROLM, basically a S140 stuffed into a 1/2 ATR chassis. IIRC it had a > somewhat painful gestation, because mapping the 15x15" S/140 processor > onto multiple smaller cards created interesting timing problems. > > The ADA compiler was developed in partnership with Rational; as part of > that deal ROLM was supposed to look at creating a militarized version of > the R1000. The R1000 was freaking huge -- much taller than a MV/8000, > to the point that getting it into the machine room was a bit of a > challenge -- and it turned out it was markedly slower executing Ada code > than a MV/8000 running code produced by the ROLM compiler, so in the end > that project went more or less nowhere. > > >> >>> Steve Wallach had incorporated into the PTE format for the Eagle in >>> order to turn memory references into I/O requests that would be >>> transparently resolved in the physical memory of another machine. >> >> Although I do not recognize the "PTE format", I guess the Eagle >> project is related to a widely sold US made aircraft, right? This >> one carried at least one Hawk/32 ;-) > > PTE ::= Page Table Entry. > > "Eagle" was DG's name for the MV architecture; ROLM's "Hawk" was a play > on "Eagle" ;) > >> >> Some of the Rolm stuff I have got is from the company which serviced >> the equipment of the ATTAS aircraft... >> >> http://www.dlr.de/dlr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10644#gallery/1751 >> >> http://www.dlr.de/dlr/Portaldata/1/Resources/documents/ATTAS_Handout_2001.pdf > > Huh. Interesting :) > >>> deal from each other ("Yes, I know that the PATU instruction only occurs >>> twice in the body of AOS/VS, but it's executed on every context switch >>> and as such it's probably not a really good idea to implement it by >>> having the microcode scrub each entry in the TLB"). >> >> I guess you have not been happy with context switching and how >> the Rolm microcode implemented it. > > IIRC we caught the problem early enough that they were able to come up > with a hardware invalidation that did materially what the MV's did and > thus we didn't end up paying a terrible performance penalty on context > switching. > > >> Unfortunately, there is nothing >> on the internet related to the instruction set of the Hawk/32 >> family but the hardware contained lot of big custom chips and >> therefor I guess it was far more powerful and complex than >> e.g. the Eclipse or earlier machines. > > It's instruction set is identical to the MV/8000, but there's some > differences in how it treats "undefined" results and "undefined" > bitfields in a handful of instructions, enough to require tweaking the > diagnostics. > > > -- > Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. > chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 > http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" > From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 10:52:33 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 17:52:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? Message-ID: Dear Experts, during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be set up individually. - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the memory and IO ranges must exist. I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising the IO- and memory accesses. My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. for safety critical applications... Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having someting similar? Erik. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 3 11:17:09 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:17:09 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> > On May 3, 2016, at 11:52 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > > Dear Experts, > > during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: > What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered > memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: > > - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) > - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) > - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be > set up individually. > - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. > - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the > memory and IO ranges must exist. > ... > Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to > support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some > Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971. In larger computers the feature is much older. Consider the CDC 6600 (1964). While not all the properties you mentioned apply because I/O is in separate peripheral processors, the notion of a privileged mode and address mapping is there. And even that isn't the oldest example, I think. paul From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Tue May 3 11:37:57 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:37:57 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: Bill, Is ?Virtual 2000 Professional? a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a VM of Windows 2000 Professional running? From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 3 11:54:00 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:54:00 -0400 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: May be a crazy idea but worth a try. First set up Win 2000 professional and find a Win 3.1 emulator that works within it. Once that's solid and running on Win 2000 box transplant the physical Win 2000 server to virtual. There are Win 2000 containers in VMWare and VCloud Director type utilities that can be used, or you can do it at the command prompt. I used this technique to set up an XP box into a cloud server that was running VMWare where you were allowed to spin up boxes. On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Mike Whalen wrote: > Bill, > > Is ?Virtual 2000 Professional? a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a VM > of Windows 2000 Professional running? > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From radiotest at juno.com Tue May 3 11:59:34 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 12:59:34 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> At 11:56 AM 5/3/2016, Swift Griggs wrote: >The Quantel Paintbox: > >Superpaint running on a DG Nova 800 > >The Bosch FGS 4000 Add to those the Avid/1 non-linear editor from Avid Technology, introduced in 1989, which ran on a Mac II using some specialized hardware. It rapidly became the leading video editing system for television and film (which, of course, had to be digitized). It eventually displaced almost all celluloid cutting. After NT4 was introduced Avid introduced Avid Studio for that OS, the first Windows OS that Avid considered stable enough for one of its edit suites. AFAIK everything before that was for Mac. They also built video playout systems for TV master control rooms that were Mac based. Perhaps Avid's best known product is Pro Tools, which they acquired when they bought Digidesign in 1994. The small TV station that I worked for used Video Toaster before we bought Avid Studio. The latter made a huge difference in editing ability, FX range and quality, and rendering time. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer (and former TV Engineer), Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 3 12:04:50 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: Wouldn't it be easier to run the code on a machine from the relevant time period? XP32 laptops are fairly readily available, and don't take much storage space. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 3 12:11:09 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:11:09 -0700 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6cd7c482-5cc7-1ce3-d27b-e01382eb6b04@bitsavers.org> On 5/3/16 8:56 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Superpaint running on a DG Nova 800 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superpaint > Superpaint was an experimental system at Xerox PARC Quantel paintboxes were some of the earliest commercial systems. Dig around in the SIGGRAPH proceedings in the 70s for others. The technology advanced rapidly once semiconductor memory systems were dense enough to have color frame stores that weren't astronomically expensive. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 3 12:13:29 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 18:13:29 +0100 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000801d1a55f$1db6a400$5923ec00$@gmail.com> You don't need a Win3.1 emulator for Windows/2000 or Windows/XP, they are 32-bit only OS's and will run 3.1 programs out of the box. Dave G4UGM (Notes there are a couple of offerings called XP 64-bit but they are actually modified versions of Server 2003 which is a different code base to XP). > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: 03 May 2016 17:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? > > May be a crazy idea but worth a try. > > First set up Win 2000 professional and find a Win 3.1 emulator that works > within it. Once that's solid and running on Win 2000 box transplant the physical > Win 2000 server to virtual. There are Win 2000 containers in VMWare and > VCloud Director type utilities that can be used, or you can do it at the command > prompt. I used this technique to set up an XP box into a cloud server that was > running VMWare where you were allowed to spin up boxes. > > On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Mike Whalen > > wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > Is ?Virtual 2000 Professional? a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a > > VM of Windows 2000 Professional running? > > > > > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue May 3 12:14:47 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:14:47 -0400 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo References: Message-ID: What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? m From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 3 12:14:54 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:14:54 -0700 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58f46830-5bfe-26d2-966a-53631af21fae@bitsavers.org> something naptha/citrus based, like goo gone? On 5/3/16 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? > > m > From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Tue May 3 12:16:15 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:16:15 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: Something I didn?t say explicitly that has caused some confusion is the following: We are an ESX 5.5 environment. None of our servers are physical, save for the ESX server. Also, when I said ?bare-metal? earlier, what I really meant was that the remote site runs ESX and will bring up our VMs. The specific software/tech we?re using for backups is Dell AppAssure with replication and virtual machine exports. So, when I say that I may need to spool up a VM to run this software, I really mean another VM inside ESX. Or I may put Virtual Box w/ XP or Windows 98 on the 2012 VM. Or something similar. Ultimately it?s going to depend on how much they need this program. It may be simpler and neater for them to transfer the data to something else. I forget who it was, but someone suggested hex editing the executable. I don?t know about doing that exactly, but I did finally resolve a question that has been lingering in my mind for quite some time? The location of the databases the program accesses is hard-coded in the executable. Wheee! :-) From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 3 12:22:05 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:22:05 -0600 Subject: Nice LAB11 brochure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:54 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On May 2, 2016 9:48 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: >> >> I hadn't heard of it being used in Tektronix oscilloscopes, but I'm >> not surprised. They also used it in the DAS9120 series logic >> analyzers, with the DAS9129 mainframe being the color display versions >> of the more common DAS9100, and in the later 1241 logic analyzer. As >> with the HP 1338A, the colors are red, green, and yellow. > > I thought the 1241 used a conventional CRT with a Liquid Crystal Color > Shutter in front of it. I think you're right. I remembered that the 1241 had an unusual display, but forgot the details. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 12:34:27 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:34:27 -0700 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo In-Reply-To: <58f46830-5bfe-26d2-966a-53631af21fae@bitsavers.org> References: <58f46830-5bfe-26d2-966a-53631af21fae@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5728E123.5050303@sydex.com> On 05/03/2016 10:14 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > something naptha/citrus based, like goo gone? > > On 5/3/16 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >> What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber >> goo that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? I start with detergent and water, which allows me to get much of the goo off without smearing it all over the place. Then paint thinner liberally mixed with cursing. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue May 3 12:34:19 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:34:19 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6308d7ff-0403-4690-fcad-d7735273395a@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-03 12:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On May 3, 2016, at 11:52 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: >> >> >> Dear Experts, >> >> during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: >> What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered >> memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: >> >> - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) >> - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) >> - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be >> set up individually. >> - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. >> - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the >> memory and IO ranges must exist. >> ... >> Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to >> support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some >> Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. > > No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971. > > In larger computers the feature is much older. Consider the CDC 6600 (1964). While not all the properties you mentioned apply because I/O is in separate peripheral processors, the notion of a privileged mode and address mapping is there. And even that isn't the oldest example, I think. Professor Per Brinch Hansen's 2001 book, "Classic Operating Systems": [the Atlas computer at Manchester University in the early 1960s] was the first system to exploit _supervisor calls_ known as "extracodes": Extracode routines form simple extensions of the basic order code, and also provide specific entry to supervisor routines. ... The Atlas supervisor has been called "the first recognisable modern operating system" (Lavington 1980). The book reprints the 1961 paper, "The Atlas Supervisor," Tom Kilburn, R. Bruce Payne and David J. Howarth: The fixed store contains about 250 subroutines which can be called in from an object program by single instructions called extracodes. When these routines are being obeyed, extracode control is used: extracode control is also used by the supervisor, which requires access to the "private" stores. ... The supervisor program controls all those functions of the system that are not obtained merely by allowing the central computer to proceed with obeying an object program. ... Supervisor extracode routines (S.E.R.'s) form the principal "branches" of the supervisor program. ... They are protected from interference by object programs by using subsidiary store as working space, together with areas of core and drum store which are locked out in the usual way whilst an object program is being executed ... The S.E.R.'s thus apply mutual protection between themselves and an object program. Great book, that repeatedly shows how many ideas we think of as "modern" are actually quite old. :) --Toby > > paul > > > From macro at linux-mips.org Tue May 3 12:39:49 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 18:39:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cleaning rubber goo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Mike Stein wrote: > What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo > that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? FWIW I've used IPA with reasonable results; as recently as last weekend last time. It doesn't seem to affect intact rubber, at least not readily, and it's quite gentle to various plastics -- it does remove the sticky remains though. I take it as an advantage actually. Maciej From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 3 12:41:54 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:41:54 -0400 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: ESX 5 is good. I have migrated 32-bit XP to a ESX 5. The reason I was suggesting 2000 professional because it's more likely you'll find a good Win 3.1 emulator that is native there, once you have a physical box working you can snapshot the physical box into a virtual image. Maybe it will work on XP, if so, even easier. From tlindner at macmess.org Tue May 3 12:44:20 2016 From: tlindner at macmess.org (tim lindner) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 10:44:20 -0700 Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) Message-ID: On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that used to be pressure > rollers, belts, feet etc.? On a similar note, does any have a solution to firm up rubber that is just starting to gooify? I have some joystick feet that are just starting to get sticky. -- -- tim lindner "Proper User Policy apparently means Simon Says." From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 3 12:45:40 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:45:40 -0400 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 3, 2016, at 1:14 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? That depends on what the substrate is. If possible, I use lacquer thinner, which is a very powerful solvent. For example, it removes label adhesive or rubber cement faster than anything else I've tried. But if the substrate is some kind of plastic, it probably objects to this, so something less potent (and less effective) is needed. A label chemist told me that label adhesive residue can be removed, slowly but safely, with WD-40. I haven't tried that on former rubber, but it might serve for that as well. The key point is that most plastics don't mind WD-40. If it matters a lot, test the proposed solvent first on an inconspicuous/noncritical part of the substrate. Sometimes you get surprised. For example, ethanol is safe for nearly all plastics, but it badly messes up clear acrylic ("plexiglas"). paul From ethan at 757.org Tue May 3 12:52:03 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:52:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> Message-ID: > Add to those the Avid/1 non-linear editor from Avid Technology, > introduced in 1989, which ran on a Mac II using some specialized > hardware. It rapidly became the leading video editing system for > television and film (which, of course, had to be digitized). It > eventually displaced almost all celluloid cutting. The early Avid systems just commanded the VTR's over RS-422 to go to time points then punch in, correct? It was non-linear but the video wasn't digitized or stored on disk? -- Ethan O'Toole From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 3 13:05:10 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:05:10 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > The early Avid systems just commanded the VTR's over RS-422 to go to > time points then punch in, correct? It was non-linear but the video > wasn't digitized or stored on disk? That's what I remember, too, but I could be wrong. I also seem to remember that the Toaster had something that came along later called the "Toaster Flyer" card that would allow you to digitize video and work with it digitally, but I never used one. I was too poor. All I could afford in those days were tiny frame grabbers for the Amiga. -Swift From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 12:55:34 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 19:55:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > > No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971. OK, that is a hint - the 11/45 also had a MMU and obviosly must have been a great machine for multi-user stuff. > In larger computers the feature is much older. Consider the CDC 6600 > (1964). While not all the properties you mentioned apply because I/O is > in separate peripheral processors, the notion of a privileged mode and > address mapping is there. And even that isn't the oldest example, I I have been aware, that bigger machines offered this already and therefore I explicitly asked for "Minis"... But yes, the CDCs are very impressive machines!!! Thanks for your reply, Erik. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue May 3 13:11:01 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:11:01 -0400 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo References: Message-ID: I've tried Goo Gone and IPA (among others) but neither seemed very effective; maybe I'm just expecting too much and elbow grease is the answer. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 1:39 PM Subject: Re: Cleaning rubber goo > On Tue, 3 May 2016, Mike Stein wrote: > >> What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo >> that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? > > FWIW I've used IPA with reasonable results; as recently as last weekend > last time. It doesn't seem to affect intact rubber, at least not readily, > and it's quite gentle to various plastics -- it does remove the sticky > remains though. I take it as an advantage actually. > > Maciej From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 12:58:59 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 19:58:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <6308d7ff-0403-4690-fcad-d7735273395a@telegraphics.com.au> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> <6308d7ff-0403-4690-fcad-d7735273395a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Toby Thain wrote: [snip] > Great book, that repeatedly shows how many ideas we think of as "modern" are > actually quite old. :) Yes, that are very wise words ;-) Erik. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 13:14:18 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:14:18 -0700 Subject: Cleaning rubber goo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5728EA7A.2030607@sydex.com> I've been wondering if methyl salicylate (oil of wintergreen) would do a decent job. Usually, it's used to restore plasticity to dried-out rubber (one common treatment for hard typewriter platens is "Rubber Renu", which is MS in a solution of xylol). Nice fresh minty smell. Good for your arthritis. I haven't tried it yet as a goo solvent. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 3 13:15:56 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:15:56 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On May 3, 2016, at 1:55 PM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > > On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971. > > OK, that is a hint - the 11/45 also had a MMU and obviosly must > have been a great machine for multi-user stuff. Keep in mind that mapping and protection are not required to build a multi-user system. DEC did timesharing on the PDP-11/20 (RSTS-11) and on the PDP-8 without either. And multiprogramming goes back much further, at least as far as the THE operating system in 1964, on the EL-X8. That OS is particularly interesting because it has virtual memory and demand paging without any hardware help, without address mapping or protection. In all these cases, you need help from the compilers to keep things safe. Burroughs mainframes do the same sort of thing, though that's not so obvious: the OS security is dependent on the fact that ordinary users can't write and execute ESPOL programs. paul From radiotest at juno.com Tue May 3 13:13:04 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 14:13:04 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503140412.03e6a4a8@juno.com> At 01:52 PM 5/3/2016, Ethan O'Toole wrote: >The early Avid systems just commanded the VTR's over RS-422 to go to time points then punch in, correct? It was non-linear but the video wasn't digitized or stored on disk? I don't know - the earliest Avid products I worked with were from the late 1980s and early 1990s and used digitized video with the largest hard drive and biggest RAM that I had worked with up to that point. The MCR video playout system that I worked with stored all the short-form video in a bank of SCSI drives, and we ran all of the long-form manually from a bank of U-matic decks or directly from sat - all of the switching done with a Grass Valley switcher run by the Avid. We did all of the long-form preroll with a built-in preroll cueing function in the U-matics, and rolled them by hand, IIRC correctly (that was about 20 years ago). Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From radiotest at juno.com Tue May 3 13:17:09 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 14:17:09 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <6308d7ff-0403-4690-fcad-d7735273395a@telegraphics.com.au> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> <6308d7ff-0403-4690-fcad-d7735273395a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141508.03dd5418@juno.com> At 01:34 PM 5/3/2016, Toby Thain wrote: >Great book, that repeatedly shows how many ideas we think of as "modern" are actually quite old. :) An example - the first dynamically refreshed capacitive memory system of which I am aware dated from 1939. It was not RAM, as it was a rotating drum. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From radiotest at juno.com Tue May 3 13:14:15 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 14:14:15 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> At 02:05 PM 5/3/2016, Swift Griggs wrote: >I also seem to remember that the Toaster had something that came along later called the "Toaster Flyer" card that would allow you to digitize video and work with it digitally, but I never used one Our Toaster had a Flyer. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 3 13:22:58 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:22:58 -0700 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4eea21a7-29e6-461a-1c2a-ab61681290ab@bitsavers.org> On 5/3/16 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Keep in mind that mapping and protection are not required to build a multi-user system. DEC did timesharing on the PDP-11/20 (RSTS-11) and on the PDP-8 without either. The SDS-940 is an early small-ish timsharing system that had base-bounds memory protection, circa mid-60s It was the platform that a lot of early timesharing services used. TSS/8 used 4K segmentation with protection (memory expansion/timeshare control option) The early BASIC minicomputer timesharing systems (line 2000TSB) had virtual BASIC machines for each user that swapped. From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 13:18:15 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:18:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > further, at least as far as the THE operating system in 1964, on the > EL-X8. That OS is particularly interesting because it has virtual > memory and demand paging without any hardware help, without address > mapping or protection. Wow - and this machine still used a drum for secondary storage; quite outstanding, you are right! Erik. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue May 3 13:35:48 2016 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:35:48 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 5/3/16 08:41, Erik Baigar wrote: [snip] > Yours seems to have TTY in slot 13 and there are 5 IO slots (15- > 11) as on the original 1602 (1602B has got more due to the re- > duced number of PCBs in the CPU). The CPI controlling the panel in > your case is at the very end opposite to the power supply and > inbetween you have got two core stacks - in total 32kW I think. > A 1602B can hold 64kW of memory (only accessible via a banking > function proprietary to Rolm, so not usable e.g. for RDOS). I thought the 16xx did it the same way Keronix and DCC did it -- by limiting indirection to one level and then using the high order bit for address rather than indicating indirection? > Have you ever powered on your 1666 with the 1648 panel? Although > the 1666 was quite popular in the US I think the non US customers > preferred the MSE14 due to better compatibility with the DG Eclipse > series... IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something nomenclature). Cheers, Chris -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 13:23:46 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:23:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <4eea21a7-29e6-461a-1c2a-ab61681290ab@bitsavers.org> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> <4eea21a7-29e6-461a-1c2a-ab61681290ab@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > The early BASIC minicomputer timesharing systems (line 2000TSB) had > virtual BASIC machines for each user that swapped. Well, but is this not an software abstraction for a non existing encapsulation feature of the underlying hardware? DGs Extended BASIC also implemented time sharing without the hardware offering this feature and probably many other examples exist (Even if you beat me: Early Windows?)... If the language does not offer any critical commands, this works as well as users can not do nasty things. From macro at linux-mips.org Tue May 3 12:20:34 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 18:20:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the > connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types of > connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the > trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board. > > What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go into > a 2x5 connector, but which don't have a lot of space at the sides? I think this header is intended for a crimp wire receptacle, like: . This is non-polarised though; getting one that is polarised and with the right key might be a bit of a challenge. Alternatively a PCB socket like: would do too; again getting a polarised one seems tough. I don't know which of the two solutions the original DEC SROM "dongle" used. I can only find 3 references quoting the part number, which is/was 96-RM001-01. It provided for a standard DECconnect cable, so I think it's actually quite likely that it was just a small daughtercard with a PCB socket, line driver and receiver ICs (DEC documentation quotes 1488 and 1489, but with a pair of wires used for communication that looks like an overkill to me -- a single IC like MAX232N would do IMHO; RS sell them individually even) and their associated passive components, and then an MMJ socket, all on the PCB. Obviously these days you probably want a DE-9 connector instead. ;) I wonder if I shouldn't actually make something like this myself just for fun -- to have a way to peek at my DEC 3000's internals even though it appears healthy overall. Maciej From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 3 13:46:17 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 11:46:17 -0700 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> <4eea21a7-29e6-461a-1c2a-ab61681290ab@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <174e836e-f44f-1ff8-4373-afcc83d79577@bitsavers.org> On 5/3/16 11:23 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: > Well, but is this not an software abstraction for a non existing > encapsulation feature of the underlying hardware? Yes, or you can design a language with array bounds checking and no arbitrary pointer dereferencing. Burroughs Algol, HP SPL, Xerox Mesa, or their modern reinventions, built on segmented stack architectures. On the microcomputer side, companies built MMUs for microcomputers that had bank switching and protection. Digital Research MPM, for example. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 3 13:51:15 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:51:15 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Dale H. Cook wrote: > >I also seem to remember that the Toaster had something that came along > >later called the "Toaster Flyer" card that would allow you to digitize > >video and work with it digitally, but I never used one > Our Toaster had a Flyer. Was I right? Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could you use it as a source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular Toaster functions covered? I didn't realize the Avid stuff was as popular and well-used as you guys are saying. Back in the day, I was under the impression that Avid equipment was just for hobbyists, but it seems not. Sounds like it was well used in professional broadcast apps, also. What about titlers? I'm under the impression that, until the mid-90's or so, titlers were totally dedicated bits of hardware. Then came a lot of packages for the PC and Amiga to do it in software and overlay it with a genlock. I also remember that switchers and time base correctors were needed for video back in the day. I understand the concept of a switcher (easy) but a TBC? Was that because you had to have video timings exactly matching before you could successfully show bits from both at the same time (ie.. in an A/B roll) or was it for a completely different purpose ? -Swift From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 14:05:36 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:05:36 -0700 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <174e836e-f44f-1ff8-4373-afcc83d79577@bitsavers.org> References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> <4eea21a7-29e6-461a-1c2a-ab61681290ab@bitsavers.org> <174e836e-f44f-1ff8-4373-afcc83d79577@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5728F680.6040406@sydex.com> Again, not minicomputer, but the Burroughs B5000 did have "invalid address" detection, which would case the machine to switch from "normal" to "control" state with an interrupt. The problem with comparing the B5000 architecture to anything else is that it was quite liberally like nothing else. Some may argue that the IBM S/360 had I/O protection, but those of us who played games with CCWs in user mode might take exception to that statement.:) One of the favorite CCW-writing exploits was to ring the 1052 console bell then execute a TIC (transfer in channel) back to the bell-ringing CCW. On one occasion that I'm aware of, this so panicked the operator that he pulled "emergency stop"... Ah, the good old days... --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 3 14:10:19 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:10:19 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <94615806-E011-45F2-9196-DDBF2D8CFCAE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <79B9F1C1-BD8C-4D91-9C1B-2F19E4933215@comcast.net> > On May 3, 2016, at 2:18 PM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > > > On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > >> further, at least as far as the THE operating system in 1964, on the EL-X8. That OS is particularly interesting because it has virtual memory and demand paging without any hardware help, without address mapping or protection. > > Wow - and this machine still used a drum for secondary > storage; quite outstanding, you are right! It's quite a nice system. The internals are fairly extensively documented in Dijkstra's early "EWD" documents (at the U Texas Austin archive), though a fair fraction are in Dutch. Among other interesting aspects is spooling to virtual memory for both input (paper tape) and output (printer, paper tape punch, plotter). And of course the impressive design discipline documented in his famous paper "The structure of the THE operating system". For that matter, the machine is interesting. Not only is this the place where semaphores were invented and first applied, but they aren't just a software concurrency control mechanism. The I/O system uses semaphores, too -- one that counts pending I/O requests, and another that counts completions and ties to the interrupt request. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 3 14:14:24 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:14:24 -0400 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something > nomenclature). 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64. Nitpick: the Rolm 1600s are not really avionics machines, although certainly quite a lot were put in aircraft. The military put them on land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" (and also not so freaking heavy!). -- Will From chris at mainecoon.com Tue May 3 14:20:34 2016 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 12:20:34 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <35ba382f-2785-86ee-183c-ad320628622b@mainecoon.com> On 5/3/16 12:14, William Donzelli wrote: > Nitpick: the Rolm 1600s are not really avionics machines, although > certainly quite a lot were put in aircraft. The military put them on > land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for > aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" > (and also not so freaking heavy!). Yes, that was actually a major complaint of the hardware designers; building something that was "reasonably" light for aircraft, could pass the salt spray/corrosive environment tests for surface ships and the large-excursion vibration (aka "depth charge") tests for submarine service was a bitch -- as was coming up with something that could be both EMP-survivable and TEMPEST-worthy. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 15:22:28 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:22:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: >> IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something >> nomenclature). > > 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64. Yes and the 1602 was the AN/UYK-19. > land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for > aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" > (and also not so freaking heavy!). Just out of curiosity: Is there an explanation, what the other letters Y and K mean? Erik. From ethan at 757.org Tue May 3 15:36:18 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 16:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: > Was I right? Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could > you use it as a source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular > Toaster functions covered? >From what I know the flyer boards had their own scsi bus or something for dedicated video disks? I could be wrong, I worked for an ISP and one of our customers had an Amiga with one and I talked to him briefly about it. > I didn't realize the Avid stuff was as popular and well-used as you guys > are saying. Back in the day, I was under the impression that Avid > equipment was just for hobbyists, but it seems not. Sounds like it was > well used in professional broadcast apps, also. Media 100 was another company that came on the scene later on the Mac side. > What about titlers? I'm under the impression that, until the mid-90's or > so, titlers were totally dedicated bits of hardware. Then came a lot of > packages for the PC and Amiga to do it in software and overlay it with a > genlock. I also remember that switchers and time base correctors were > needed for video back in the day. I understand the concept of a switcher > (easy) but a TBC? Was that because you had to have video timings exactly > matching before you could successfully show bits from both at the same > time (ie.. in an A/B roll) or was it for a completely different purpose ? You got it! Modern stuff sure fixes a lot! -- Ethan O'Toole From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 3 15:37:32 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 16:37:32 -0400 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Google JETDS. It will tell all. -- Will On May 3, 2016 4:35 PM, "Erik Baigar" wrote: > > IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something >>> nomenclature). >>> >> >> 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64. >> > > Yes and the 1602 was the AN/UYK-19. > > land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for >> aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" >> (and also not so freaking heavy!). >> > > Just out of curiosity: Is there an explanation, what the other > letters Y and K mean? > > Erik. > From radiotest at juno.com Tue May 3 15:28:09 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 16:28:09 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503160804.03edc9b0@juno.com> At 02:51 PM 5/3/2016, Swift Griggs wrote: >Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could you use it as a source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular Toaster functions covered? IIRC it could be used that way, but IIRC it wouldn't store an awful lot of video. >I didn't realize the Avid stuff was as popular and well-used as you guys are saying. ... Sounds like it was well used in professional broadcast apps, also. Avid was initially only professional and very expensive. The fully-loaded Avid/1 Media Composer in 1989 had about 4 gigabytes of SCSI hard drive and 5 megabytes of RAM (in the Mac) and cost nearly $80,000.00. IIRC that configuration could store something like 6 hours of 30 fps video with stereo CD-quality audio. >... but a TBC? Was that because you had to have video timings exactly matching before you could successfully show bits from both at the same time (ie.. in an A/B roll) or was it for a completely different purpose ? A/B roll was one purpose. Another use was that some video sources (such as some sat receivers) were not genlocked to the house standard, so we used TBCs to permit smooth dissolves and switching between sat receivers and in-house sources which were genlocked. We also got some out-of-house video (some church services shot by small churches come to mind) that came in on VHS, and the VHS decks were not genlocked. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From erik at baigar.de Tue May 3 15:29:49 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:29:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <35ba382f-2785-86ee-183c-ad320628622b@mainecoon.com> References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> <35ba382f-2785-86ee-183c-ad320628622b@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > > On 5/3/16 12:14, William Donzelli wrote: [ snip ] >> (and also not so freaking heavy!). Yes, these are extremely heavy - the 1602 with the additional 24kW memory extension can only be transported over larger distances using a barrow. It is not that big, but has a density close to water ;-) It is incredible to see, that there have been over 20 of the Rolm processors and chassis in the aforementioned ATTAS aircraft. And during some trials a F-16 had to carry three additinoal Hawk/32s ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_VISTA > service was a bitch -- as was coming up with something that could be > both EMP-survivable and TEMPEST-worthy. TEMPEST? Not the play from Shakespeare I guess (sorry for stupid questions)... Good night, Erik. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 3 15:58:34 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 16:58:34 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 4:36 PM, wrote: >> Was I right? Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could >> you use it as a source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular >> Toaster functions covered? > > From what I know the flyer boards had their own scsi bus or something for > dedicated video disks? ISTR the Toaster Flyer had 3 SCSI channels, one for A, one for B, and one for the output stream once you were done with doing the layout/compositing, but I wasn't a Toaster user, so I could be wrong too. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 3 16:01:17 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 17:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) Message-ID: <20160503210117.A8DCF18C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Erik Baigar >> as was coming up with something that could be both EMP-survivable and >> TEMPEST-worthy. > TEMPEST? A set of standards for allowed levels of emissions (in particular, electro-magnetic radiation) from communication/computing gear, intended to prevent listening to the activity of that gear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename) Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 3 16:14:32 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:14:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1319840859.640300.1462310072980.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 02 May 2016 at 22:56 "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > Other than that maybe it's NVRAM after all. But what could it be then > > that > > > did not show up in your testing? Could it be that the settings and > > > environment variables stored there are protected with a checksum (or a > > > signature) which happened to be correct for the random contents after > > > power was restored and that in turn confused DROM diagnostics? Can you > > > wipe NVRAM with your program, reinstall the DROM chip and see if the > > > error > > > returns? > > > > > > This thought has crossed my mind. However, since I had to change the > > battery > > that backs up the NVRAM in any case, then surely the memory would have > > been > > zeroed? This NVRAM is battery backed, right? The NVRAM does contain > > data, I > > have verified this with my program, so something is repopulating it > > after > > the battery has been changed. I am slightly reluctant to zero the memory > > on > > purpose in case I can no longer boot the machine (I would save the > > contents > > before zeroing of course). > > I don't think you can assume power-cycling NVRAM (which is effectively > what you've done here by putting a new battery) will zero it. It would if > there was some kind of a reset signal asserted at poweron that would set > the flip-flops to a known state. But the KM6264B chip does not appear to > have such a feature, nor an external reset input. So we need to assume > its contents are random after a powerup. Have you ever used Sinclair ZX > Spectrum? It had its video adapter active from powerup and you could > briefly see the random contents of video RAM on the screen. > I did a test last night which failed, but realised I did it wrong. I am away from home again now and will try that test again, plus the suggestions below. Thanks Rob > > > I understand your reluctance. The NVRAM is indeed supposed to be backed > with the same battery the RTC is. There's just a slight chance the > battery circuit is not operating correctly. There's no battery status bit > in the NVRAM, but there is one in the RTC. You should be able to verify > it with: > > >>> d -b pmem:1c0000e00 0d > >>> e -b pmem:1c0000e20 > > this will read BQ4285 RTC chip's register D. If this comes out as 80, > then the battery is giving power to the chip. If this is 00, then there > is no battery power available. Of course a broken PCB trace could make > battery power reach one of the two chips only. > > BTW, does your SRM console have a TEST command? If so, then have you > tried it? Of course it might want to call into DROM and thus fail rather > spectacularly if it's absent, but chances are it might not and you may get > useful output from it. > > Maciej > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 3 16:14:32 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:14:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <018701d19d8c$e87a5a90$b96f0fb0$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1319840859.640300.1462310072980.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 02 May 2016 at 22:56 "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > Other than that maybe it's NVRAM after all. But what could it be then > > that > > > did not show up in your testing? Could it be that the settings and > > > environment variables stored there are protected with a checksum (or a > > > signature) which happened to be correct for the random contents after > > > power was restored and that in turn confused DROM diagnostics? Can you > > > wipe NVRAM with your program, reinstall the DROM chip and see if the > > > error > > > returns? > > > > > > This thought has crossed my mind. However, since I had to change the > > battery > > that backs up the NVRAM in any case, then surely the memory would have > > been > > zeroed? This NVRAM is battery backed, right? The NVRAM does contain > > data, I > > have verified this with my program, so something is repopulating it > > after > > the battery has been changed. I am slightly reluctant to zero the memory > > on > > purpose in case I can no longer boot the machine (I would save the > > contents > > before zeroing of course). > > I don't think you can assume power-cycling NVRAM (which is effectively > what you've done here by putting a new battery) will zero it. It would if > there was some kind of a reset signal asserted at poweron that would set > the flip-flops to a known state. But the KM6264B chip does not appear to > have such a feature, nor an external reset input. So we need to assume > its contents are random after a powerup. Have you ever used Sinclair ZX > Spectrum? It had its video adapter active from powerup and you could > briefly see the random contents of video RAM on the screen. > I did a test last night which failed, but realised I did it wrong. I am away from home again now and will try that test again, plus the suggestions below. Thanks Rob > > > I understand your reluctance. The NVRAM is indeed supposed to be backed > with the same battery the RTC is. There's just a slight chance the > battery circuit is not operating correctly. There's no battery status bit > in the NVRAM, but there is one in the RTC. You should be able to verify > it with: > > >>> d -b pmem:1c0000e00 0d > >>> e -b pmem:1c0000e20 > > this will read BQ4285 RTC chip's register D. If this comes out as 80, > then the battery is giving power to the chip. If this is 00, then there > is no battery power available. Of course a broken PCB trace could make > battery power reach one of the two chips only. > > BTW, does your SRM console have a TEST command? If so, then have you > tried it? Of course it might want to call into DROM and thus fail rather > spectacularly if it's absent, but chances are it might not and you may get > useful output from it. > > Maciej > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 3 16:18:03 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:18:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <990899515.640445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 03 May 2016 at 18:20 "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the > > connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types > > of > > connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the > > trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board. > > > > What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go > > into > > a 2x5 connector, but which don't have a lot of space at the sides? > > I think this header is intended for a crimp wire receptacle, like: > . This is > non-polarised though; getting one that is polarised and with the right key > might be a bit of a challenge. Alternatively a PCB socket like: > would do too; again > getting a polarised one seems tough. > The crimp wire one looks like it would work, thanks for the suggestion! > > > I don't know which of the two solutions the original DEC SROM "dongle" > used. I can only find 3 references quoting the part number, which is/was > 96-RM001-01. It provided for a standard DECconnect cable, so I think it's > actually quite likely that it was just a small daughtercard with a PCB > socket, line driver and receiver ICs (DEC documentation quotes 1488 and > 1489, but with a pair of wires used for communication that looks like an > overkill to me -- a single IC like MAX232N would do IMHO; RS sell them > individually even) and their associated passive components, and then an > MMJ socket, all on the PCB. Obviously these days you probably want a DE-9 > connector instead. ;) > I have a MAX232CPE now, just need the connectors and one more 1uF capacitor and I should have all I need. > > > I wonder if I shouldn't actually make something like this myself just for > fun -- to have a way to peek at my DEC 3000's internals even though it > appears healthy overall. > > Maciej > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 3 16:18:03 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:18:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <990899515.640445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 03 May 2016 at 18:20 "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the > > connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types > > of > > connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the > > trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board. > > > > What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go > > into > > a 2x5 connector, but which don't have a lot of space at the sides? > > I think this header is intended for a crimp wire receptacle, like: > . This is > non-polarised though; getting one that is polarised and with the right key > might be a bit of a challenge. Alternatively a PCB socket like: > would do too; again > getting a polarised one seems tough. > The crimp wire one looks like it would work, thanks for the suggestion! > > > I don't know which of the two solutions the original DEC SROM "dongle" > used. I can only find 3 references quoting the part number, which is/was > 96-RM001-01. It provided for a standard DECconnect cable, so I think it's > actually quite likely that it was just a small daughtercard with a PCB > socket, line driver and receiver ICs (DEC documentation quotes 1488 and > 1489, but with a pair of wires used for communication that looks like an > overkill to me -- a single IC like MAX232N would do IMHO; RS sell them > individually even) and their associated passive components, and then an > MMJ socket, all on the PCB. Obviously these days you probably want a DE-9 > connector instead. ;) > I have a MAX232CPE now, just need the connectors and one more 1uF capacitor and I should have all I need. > > > I wonder if I shouldn't actually make something like this myself just for > fun -- to have a way to peek at my DEC 3000's internals even though it > appears healthy overall. > > Maciej > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 3 16:19:50 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:19:50 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > ISTR the Toaster Flyer had 3 SCSI channels, one for A, one for B, and > one for the output stream once you were done with doing the > layout/compositing, but I wasn't a Toaster user, so I could be wrong > too. Interesting. That makes sense since you'd have a discrete channel for everything you needed for a two-source compositing operation like a roll. I've used my SGI's a lot for simple video editing, but I never got into anything cool like a Toaster or an Avid rig. I know there are a lot of hardware options for doing video on SGI's (internal video, Sirius video, Galileo video, and the dmedia bundle for newer systems). There are applications like Alias Composer, Autodesk Flame, Flint/Effect, Avid Illusion, Jaleo, Matador, Piranha Cinema HD, Adobe Premier, and Shake. However, I haven't been able to get my hands on more than half that stuff because of how expensive it is. Plus, just about all of it was LMF nodelocked. So, you can't even buy a used copy. -Swift From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 3 17:42:40 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 18:42:40 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160503124211.03e18260@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160503141319.03e6a638@juno.com> Message-ID: <3D08DAC5EA4847F08D9292C27DC53E9E@TeoPC> Radius Videovision was another major player early on for the mac (both Nubus and later PCI versions). There was also semi pro stuff like Supermac DigitalFilm. Targa also made a bunch of cards for overlays on PC and Mac. Avid also had some dead ends like Avid Media Suite Pro for the Mac. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzy94vWUitE <== AVID/1 DEMO -----Original Message----- From: ethan at 757.org Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment Media 100 was another company that came on the scene later on the Mac side. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From tingox at gmail.com Tue May 3 18:25:54 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 01:25:54 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Update on NDwiki: On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > > We (a few of us, including at least one more member of this list) used > to document everything ND we could figure out on the 'ndwiki.org' > site, but for unknown reasons (to me at least) it started going > offline more and more a couple of years back, and then never came > back. I didn't manage to get archive.org to copy everything before it > went, although I got quite a few pages archived before it went for > good. Without that site there's not much available on the net. Another > reason my work on this stopped. > I've been in contact with the persons responsible for NDwiki. Unfortunately, the Swedish gentleman who ran ndwiki.org got very busy with real life just after his server died, and still hasn't found time to get a new server up. The contingency plan was put in motion; the necessary data was sent to another Swedish gentleman so that he could set up a server and get NDwiki up on that. Bad luck again; he also got too busy with real life. He doesn't expect to be able to get the server up until this fall. :-/ I'm currently investigating if me running the server as a temporary solution (until the Swedes have time to take over) is something they could agree on. There might be hope for NDwiki yet. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue May 3 18:30:59 2016 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 01:30:59 +0200 Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email... In-Reply-To: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> References: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> Message-ID: <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 03:32:21AM -0400, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > fido news when he became editor and they are lamenting the Internet > taking away from fido net.... > > https://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gopher.meulie.net/0/fidonews/2002/fido1902.nw > s > > > In a message dated 4/30/2016 7:43:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > geneb at deltasoft.com writes: > > On Sun, 1 May 2016, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:07:34AM -0700, geneb wrote: > >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > >> > > [...] > >>> Just look into the political machinations of what was known as FidoNet > to > >>> see how this could end up. > >>> > >> What IS known as FidoNet (1:138/142 here. :) ) and it's still a > >> political shit-show, mostly due to people from Zone 2. *sigh* > > > > Pardon my ignorant question but is there a place on the net where I > > could read some more about it? Or maybe it is short enough to explain > > here? > > > Books could be written about it unfortunately, One of the more annoying > aspects is Bjorn Felten, the current editor of FidoNews - he's refused > repeated requests to pass on his editor duties for various reasons and > he's refused - for at least the last 10 years. Find a telnetable BBS > that's a member of FidoNet and start reading the FidoNews echo for a taste > of the insanity. The Fido Sysop (FNSYSOP) is also a pretty deranged > place. Thanks, both of you. Indeed the editorial of 1902 news was creepy. As of telneting, I almost registered to such BBS but at the very last moment backed off. The reason was I can see how this kind of place can be a real time sucker. I have already spent whole Sunday browsing this gopher site with lynx (I turned gateway address into proper gopher:// one). It was a hell of a joy, because I do not think I knew of meulie before. I was only poking at gopher.floodgap.com semi-regularly during last umpteen months. Now I even started to think, very shyly, how nice would it have been to posess even one real IP4 number and have one such thing on my router. It can run Linux (or so OpenWRT guys claim), so it can run gopherd too. Albeit I would rather have non-Linux on it. My dreams always have this complicated multistory property. Of course my cabletv can sell me "business" service. Ugh. This is tempting but I am strong. :-) Ah, ok. I still have nothing to show off. So there is no reason to go gopher. That was easy. Maybe next time. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue May 3 20:13:21 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 18:13:21 -0700 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76E08BC1-1B93-4BE2-AB27-5DBD9B1F4D48@eschatologist.net> Several of my friends worked on Intelligent Resources? Video Explorer NuBus card, which could do realtime video capture and manipulation because it had some sort of video processing and switching chip on the card. It also had an open bus that could be used to connect multiple video-related cards together so they could bypass NuBus for sharing data. (NuBus is only 10-40 MB/sec.) I think AnimEigo was using a subtitling system built atop Video Explorer cards right up until the switch to DVDs. -- Chris From kspt.tor at gmail.com Tue May 3 20:20:39 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 03:20:39 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 May 2016 at 01:25, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > Update on NDwiki: > > I've been in contact with the persons responsible for NDwiki. > Unfortunately, the Swedish gentleman who ran ndwiki.org got very busy > with real life just after his server died, and still hasn't found time > to get a new server up. > The contingency plan was put in motion; the necessary data was sent to > another Swedish gentleman so that he could set up a server and get > NDwiki up on that. Bad luck again; he also got too busy with real > life. He doesn't expect to be able to get the server up until this > fall. :-/ > I'm currently investigating if me running the server as a temporary > solution (until the Swedes have time to take over) is something they > could agree on. > There might be hope for NDwiki yet. > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen Ah, positive news. In the meantime I've been half-busy creating a local (private, for now) re-construction of NDwiki, from archive.org. For at least to have easy access to some of the docu I wrote that I don't have elsewhere.. (ND floppy formats, for example). Slow work, of course, with no copy of the database available. BTW in case you don't have a public server available I do have a mostly spare Linode server, or alternatively I could get another - they're relatively cheap, and have great network access. -Tor From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 3 20:43:30 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 21:43:30 -0400 Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: <76E08BC1-1B93-4BE2-AB27-5DBD9B1F4D48@eschatologist.net> References: <76E08BC1-1B93-4BE2-AB27-5DBD9B1F4D48@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: Those are pretty hard to find, have yet to add one to my collection. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Hanson Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 9:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment Several of my friends worked on Intelligent Resources? Video Explorer NuBus card, which could do realtime video capture and manipulation because it had some sort of video processing and switching chip on the card. It also had an open bus that could be used to connect multiple video-related cards together so they could bypass NuBus for sharing data. (NuBus is only 10-40 MB/sec.) I think AnimEigo was using a subtitling system built atop Video Explorer cards right up until the switch to DVDs. -- Chris --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From brain at jbrain.com Tue May 3 22:08:38 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:08:38 -0500 Subject: center tapped power transformer help needed Message-ID: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> Anyone here do any transformer specification or design and would be interested in some consulting dollars to help me source/create a weird transformer option? What I need is a 12V primary, 12V:12V center tapped secondary that can support 12VA of power. Higher voltages are OK, but not needed. I am struggling on the Xformer details, but I know it needs to be center tapped, 1:1:1 @12VA Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From ian at platinum.net Tue May 3 22:29:14 2016 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:29:14 -0700 Subject: center tapped power transformer help needed In-Reply-To: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> References: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5DED5091-3172-45AF-A239-114EB95AB92A@platinum.net> Why not use a 240v CT to 120v ? Maybe something like this? http://www.signaltransformer.com/sites/all/pdf/A41.pdf Use the 240v side as your 12-0-12 and the 120v side as your 12v. Ian > On May 3, 2016, at 8:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > > Anyone here do any transformer specification or design and would be interested in some consulting dollars to help me source/create a weird transformer option? > > What I need is a 12V primary, 12V:12V center tapped secondary that can support 12VA of power. Higher voltages are OK, but not needed. I am struggling on the Xformer details, but I know it needs to be center tapped, 1:1:1 @12VA > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > > > --- > Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=9355F9A611A511E68F5D407693ED0201 From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 22:48:55 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:48:55 -0700 Subject: center tapped power transformer help needed In-Reply-To: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> References: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <57297127.7070409@sydex.com> On 05/03/2016 08:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Anyone here do any transformer specification or design and would be > interested in some consulting dollars to help me source/create a > weird transformer option? > > What I need is a 12V primary, 12V:12V center tapped secondary that > can support 12VA of power. Higher voltages are OK, but not needed. > I am struggling on the Xformer details, but I know it needs to be > center tapped, 1:1:1 @12VA 60 Hz? Maybe you could give the guys at Prem Magnetics a call. They're always sending emails offering to do custom work. http://www.premmagnetics.com/ From brain at jbrain.com Tue May 3 22:51:37 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 22:51:37 -0500 Subject: center tapped power transformer help needed In-Reply-To: <57297127.7070409@sydex.com> References: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> <57297127.7070409@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572971C9.5050102@jbrain.com> On 5/3/2016 10:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/03/2016 08:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > 60 Hz? Maybe you could give the guys at Prem Magnetics a call. They're > always sending emails offering to do custom work. > > http://www.premmagnetics.com/ Yep, 50/60Hz. I will check them out. Also, Ian, thanks for the link. I'll check them out as well. I will admit, though, those Xformers looks huge in the brochure, and I always thought those little 120->6.3V 6VA transformers I used to find in cannibalized tape recorders and such were so much smaller. Jim From erik at baigar.de Wed May 4 00:39:19 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 07:39:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote: [snip] >> A 1602B can hold 64kW of memory (only accessible via a banking >> function proprietary to Rolm, so not usable e.g. for RDOS). > > I thought the 16xx did it the same way Keronix and DCC did it -- by > limiting indirection to one level and then using the high order bit for > address rather than indicating indirection? No, they implemented new instructions "double word instructions" as they called it in the 5605 programmers manual. These do not exist on 1601, 1602 and 1602 but on 1602A, 1602B and 1650. As the name suggests, they use two consecutive words in core and thus it is easy to give a 16 bit address directly. There are also some floating point instructions here and a bunch of "double precision instructions" working on 32 bit operands. So essentially the 5605 has got a microcode based 32 bit extension. I have not tried whether the DGC way works,but I know that software for Novas with two banks of core does not work - e.g. one is re- stricted to 32kW in using RDOS on the 1602B... BTW: The 1602 and 1602B have a stack implemented but I do not know (or have looked it up) whether this is compatible to some- thing else... Erik. From pete at petelancashire.com Tue May 3 16:07:07 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 14:07:07 -0700 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: ... The system has been modified over time, with some types (e.g. carrier pigeon -B-) dropped JETDS is one of the few things that have survived, although one had to use their imagination on a few things. On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 1:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Google JETDS. > > It will tell all. > > -- > Will > On May 3, 2016 4:35 PM, "Erik Baigar" wrote: > >> >> IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something >>>> nomenclature). >>>> >>> >>> 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64. >>> >> >> Yes and the 1602 was the AN/UYK-19. >> >> land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for >>> aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" >>> (and also not so freaking heavy!). >>> >> >> Just out of curiosity: Is there an explanation, what the other >> letters Y and K mean? >> >> Erik. >> > From jrr at flippers.com Wed May 4 02:06:36 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 00:06:36 -0700 Subject: center tapped power transformer help needed In-Reply-To: <572971C9.5050102@jbrain.com> References: <572967B6.3060706@jbrain.com> <57297127.7070409@sydex.com> <572971C9.5050102@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <57299F7C.1000005@flippers.com> On 05/03/2016 8:51 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 5/3/2016 10:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 05/03/2016 08:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> 60 Hz? Maybe you could give the guys at Prem Magnetics a call. They're >> always sending emails offering to do custom work. >> >> http://www.premmagnetics.com/ > Yep, 50/60Hz. I will check them out. > > Also, Ian, thanks for the link. I'll check them out as well. I will > admit, though, those Xformers looks huge in the brochure, and I always > thought those little 120->6.3V 6VA transformers I used to find in > cannibalized tape recorders and such were so much smaller. > > Jim > > Nothing stopping you from using two smaller transformers - 120 primary to some secondary voltage, say 24VAC, then a second transformer with a 240V CT primary that also has a 24VAC secondary. Assuming you get the VA figured out correctly these should work and be much smaller than a single 240CT to 120VAC transformer. Hammond Manufacturing makes a wide range of superior quality transformers that is widely used by the tube and regular electronics folk. https://www.hammfg.com/electronics/transformers/power/186-187 I think you will find this series helpful, note the VA rating and get yourself one of the 187C20 and a 186C20 - or for a bit extra power and to allow for losses, get the 187D20 and 186D20 - wire the 24VAC secondaries together (ignoring the centre tap on the secondaries of course). Farily compact. Hammond also will wind you a single or a thousand transformers...I like looking at their complete line, including a replacement transformer for the early 1920s RCA Radiola III battery radio. https://www.hammfg.com/electronics/transformers/classic/118944 Amazing range! https://www.hammfg.com/electronics/transformers/classic/zone John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:02:43 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:02:43 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3 May 2016 at 16:20, geneb wrote: > The issue is that with 64 bit versions of windows, the 16 bit thunking layer > isn't present. The simplest way to do this is to grab VMWare Player (free > download) and then create a Win98 VM. Google can point to a number of > downloadable, ready-to-run Win98SE VMs. VMware Player is freeware, not FOSS, and there might be licensing issues. VirtualBox is FOSS apart from the extensions pack. That is one reason that I recommended it. Secondly, I have experimentally tried Windows 3, 95, 98, ME, NT 3, NT 4, W2K, XP, Vista, 7, 8 & 10 under VirtualBox. Including concurrently. I recommended XP for multiple reasons: [a] It is the oldest and earliest version of Windows for which VirtualBox Guest Additions are available. This allows host/guest integration, file sharing, a shared clipboard, seamless mode, etc. Otherwise it is very difficult to get data in or out of the VM. [b] Using the ePosReady 2009 registry hack, security patches are still available, and it will run recent browsers. [c] Using the XP Mode VM, which is freely downloadable from MS, you do not need to install and customise it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:05:14 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:05:14 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: <5728BBCB.4070805@sydex.com> References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> <5728BBCB.4070805@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3 May 2016 at 16:55, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'll retrench and restate that in terms of "it depends". If your CPU > doesn't support Hardware Virtualization Mode, you're out of luck: > > http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/5460/our-look-at-xp-mode-in-windows-7/ 16-bit support and hardware virtualisation extensions are 2 totally separate and orthogonal issues. Secondly, desktop hypervisors such as VirtualBox and VMware can do software trapping of Ring 0 instructions on systems lacking hardware virtualisation extensions, so they will still work and the method I suggest will still function. I'd expect that performance would drop 15% or so, though. I suspect that 16-bit code compatibility will remain in x86-64 until the end of its days, but I could be wrong... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:10:00 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:10:00 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3 May 2016 at 19:16, Mike Whalen wrote: > Something I didn?t say explicitly that has caused some confusion is the > following: > > We are an ESX 5.5 environment. None of our servers are physical, save for > the ESX server. Also, when I said ?bare-metal? earlier, what I really meant > was that the remote site runs ESX and will bring up our VMs. Aww jeez. So when you said "bare metal" you actually meant "NOT bare metal"? > So, when I say that I may need to spool up a VM to run this software, I > really mean another VM inside ESX. A separate VM on the host machine with XP and the app should be entirely doable. I strongly suggest enabling the ePosReady 2009 security tweak, though: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/26/german_tinkerer_gets_around_xpocalypse/ Getting an XPMode VM into it will be tricky, though. A reinstall might be necessary. > Or I may put Virtual Box w/ XP or Windows 98 on the 2012 VM. That would be significantly inefficient and I would not recommend it myself. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:28:11 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:28:11 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 21:06, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> >> Do you really think it's growing? I'd like very much to believe that. >> I see little sign of it. I do hope you're right. > > I read Hacker News and some of the more programmer related parts of > Reddit, and yes, there are some vocal people there that would like to see C > outlawed. Fair enough. (So do I, sometimes, incidentally.) But my impression is that it's only a thing among the weirdos, not in industry or mainstream academia. :( > I, personally, don't agree with that. I would however, like to > see C programmers know assembly language before using C (I think that would > help a lot, especially with pointer usage). Sounds like a step back towards older times, and as such, I fear it is very unlikely. > I read that and it doesn't really seem that CAOS would have been much > better than what actually came out. Okay, the potentially better resource > tracking would be nice, but that's about it really. The story of ARX, the unfinished Acorn OS in Modula-2 for the then-prototype Archimedes, is similar. No, it probably wouldn't have been all that radical. I wonder how much of Amiga OS' famed performance, compactness, etc. was a direct result of its adaptation to the MMU-less 68000, and thus could never have been implemented in a way that could have been made more robust on later chips such as the 68030? > I was expecting > something like Synthesis OS: > > http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ > > (which *is* mind blowing and I wish the code was available). Ah, yes, I've read much of that. I agree. Mind you, Taos was similarly mind-blowing for me. >> GNOME 1 was heavily based on CORBA. (I believe -- but am not sure -- >> that later versions discarded much of it.) KDE reinvented that >> particular wheel. > > I blew that one---CORBA lived for about ten years longer than I expected. Yeah. :-( I think elements of it are still around, too. > Wait ... what? You first decried about poorly-designed OSes, and then > went on to say there were better than before? I'm confused. Or are you > saying that we should have something *other* than what we do have? Well, yes, exactly. That is precisely what I'm saying. > I spent some hours on the Urbit site. Between the obscure writing, > entirely new jargon and the "we're going to change the world" attitude, it > very much feels like the Xanadu Project. I am not sure I'm the person to try to summarise it. I've nicked my own effort from my tech blog: I've not tried Urbit. (Yet.) But my impression is this: It's not obfuscatory for the hell of it. It is, yes, but for a valid reason: that he doesn't want to waste time explaining or supporting it. It's hard because you need to be v v bright to fathom it; obscurity is a user filter. He claims NOT to be a Lisp type, not to have known anything much about the language or LispMs, & to have re-invented some of the underlying ideas independently. I'm not sure I believe this. My view of it from a technical perspective is this. (This may sound over-dramatic.) We are so mired in the C world that modern CPUs are essentially C machines. The conceptual model of C, of essentially all compilers, OSes, imperative languages, &c. is a flawed one -- it is too simple an abstraction. Q.v. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 The LispM model was a better one, because it's slightly richer. That's "slightly" in the St Exupery sense, i.e. "?perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove." Instead of bytes & blocks of them, the basic unit is the list. Operations are defined in terms of lists, not bytes. You define a few very simple operations & that's all you need. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3482389/how-many-primitives-does-it-take-to-build-a-lisp-machine-ten-seven-or-five The way LispMs worked, AIUI, is that the machine language wasn't Lisp, it was something far simpler, but designed to map onto Lisp concepts. I have been told that modern CPU design & optimisations & so on map really poorly onto this set of primitives. That LispM CPUs were stack machines, but modern processors are register machines. I am not competent to judge the truth of this. If Yarvin's claims are to be believed, he has done 2 intertwined things: [1] Experimentally or theoretically worked out something akin to these primitives. [2] Found or worked out a way to map them onto modern CPUs. This is his "machine code". Something that is not directly connected or associated with modern CPUs' machine languages. He has built something OTHER but defined his own odd language to describe it & implement it. He has DELIBERATELY made it unlike anything else so you don't bring across preconceptions & mental impurities. You need to start over. The basic layer is both foundation & insulation. It's technological insulation, a barrier between the byte machine underneath & the list-oriented layer on top. It's also conceptual insulation, to make you re-learn how to work. But, as far as I can judge, the design is sane, clean, & I am taking it that he has reasons for the weirdness. I don't think it's gratuitous. So what on a LispM was the machine language, in Urbit, is Nock. It's a whole new machine language layer, placed on top of an existing OS stack, so I'm not surprised if it's horrendously inefficient. Compare with Ternac, a trinary computer implemented as a simulation on a binary machine. It's that big a change. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternac Then, on top of this layer, he's built a new type of OS. This seems to have conceptual & architectural analogies with LispM OSes such as Genera. Only Yarvin claims not to be a Lisper, so he's re-invented that wheel. That is Hoon. But he has an Agenda. Popehat explained it well here: https://popehat.com/2013/12/06/nock-hoon-etc-for-non-vulcans-why-urbit-matters/ ? via the medium of this sig: Timothy C. May, Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero knowledge, reputations, information markets, black markets, collapse of government. I would be interested in an effort to layer a bare-metal-up LispM-type layer on top of x86, ARM, &c. But Yarvin isn't here for the sheer techno-wanking. Oh no. He wants to reinvent the world, via the medium of encryption, digital currencies, &c. So he has a whole other layer on top of Urbit, which is the REASON for Urbit -- a secure, P2P, encrypted, next-gen computer system which happens to run on existing machines & over the existing Internet, because that's the available infrastructure, & whereas it's a horrid mess, it's what is there. You can't ignore it, you can't achieve these grandiose goals within it, so, you just layer your new stuff over the top. I hope that makes some kind of sense. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:30:38 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:30:38 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <08B4FA5C-9BB7-448F-AEC7-0C728F9E290C@swri.edu> References: <571766F2.1090201@btinternet.com> <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <08B4FA5C-9BB7-448F-AEC7-0C728F9E290C@swri.edu> Message-ID: On 30 April 2016 at 06:36, Tapley, Mark wrote: > On Apr 28, 2016, at 8:38 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> I loved BeOS but never saw the Be Book. :-( > > Sorry if this is a duplicate, I?m behind on the list by a little. I think the Be Book is effectively on-line at > > https://www.haiku-os.org/legacy-docs/bebook/ > > Haiku, open-source and ?inspired by BeOS?, is pretty easy to install on a virtual machine on VMWare or (reportedly) VirtualBox. I don?t know how faithful it is to the original Be experience, but just in case you are interested. Thanks! Yes, I've experimented with Haiku in VMs. But cheers for the link to the book -- I'll have a look. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 07:36:54 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:36:54 +0200 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: References: <20160420164737.GC2297@Update.UU.SE> <53E25B18-022F-428C-ACBF-29F0C8E6975C@nf6x.net> <201604291749.NAA24039@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5723A1C3.1000100@sydex.com> <201604291822.OAA03703@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 29 April 2016 at 22:23, Eric Smith wrote: > More than 95% of my work is in C, > because that's what my clients demand, so people are usually surprised > to hear my opinion that C is a terrible choice for almost anything. I am in an analogous boat. Most of my career has been based on Windows, either supporting it, working on it, writing about it or whatever. And yet, it is one of my least-favourite OSes. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 4 08:09:00 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 06:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email... In-Reply-To: <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Tomasz Rola wrote: > Now I even started to think, very shyly, how nice would it have been > to posess even one real IP4 number and have one such thing on my > router. It can run Linux (or so OpenWRT guys claim), so it can run > gopherd too. Albeit I would rather have non-Linux on it. My dreams > always have this complicated multistory property. Of course my cabletv > can sell me "business" service. Ugh. This is tempting but I am > strong. :-) > There are services like http://www.noip.com/free where you can get a DNS entry for dynamically changing IP addresses. This way you can run a BBS without having to buy a business class account. You could even bring up an AWS instance for about $5 a month, which is great for doing BBS work. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 4 08:32:26 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 06:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 May 2016 at 16:20, geneb wrote: >> The issue is that with 64 bit versions of windows, the 16 bit thunking layer >> isn't present. The simplest way to do this is to grab VMWare Player (free >> download) and then create a Win98 VM. Google can point to a number of >> downloadable, ready-to-run Win98SE VMs. > > VMware Player is freeware, not FOSS, and there might be licensing issues. > Irrelevant. (EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and shoul be used for the same purpose.) > [c] Using the XP Mode VM, which is freely downloadable from MS, you do > not need to install and customise it. > 64 bit host OS = 64 Bit XP Mode VM. (AFAIK) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed May 4 08:32:33 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 08:32:33 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: I?m going to get a demonstration of this program in the next day or so. It _sounds_ like it?s just a program they use to remind two individuals what taxes are due for the various organizations the work for. If it?s really just a calendar, I am going to suggest moving that data into a new Exchange calendar that is available to anyone that needs it. That way, they?ll get reminders, they can schedule and unschedule things and we can boot this legacy application out the door. From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed May 4 08:35:58 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 08:35:58 -0500 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:32 AM, geneb wrote: > >> 64 bit host OS = 64 Bit XP Mode VM. (AFAIK) > I?m not sure offhand what the default is, but I have gotten around this problem running XP Mode on a Windows 7 x64 installation. So that XP Mode is definitely 32-bit. Cheers, m From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 08:38:21 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 15:38:21 +0200 Subject: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <9E53128F08504269BF741695B53BF4E1@Daedalus> <364B3F8C-6460-47FB-8890-C6663380D431@blastpuppy.com> <572819F9.2010905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4 May 2016 at 15:32, geneb wrote: >> VMware Player is freeware, not FOSS, and there might be licensing issues. >> > Irrelevant. (EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and shoul be used > for the same purpose.) No, not really. Sadly. Anyway, it's irrelevant, as the OP has now clarified that he is running in a VMware ESX environment, so that would be the host. >> [c] Using the XP Mode VM, which is freely downloadable from MS, you do >> not need to install and customise it. >> > 64 bit host OS = 64 Bit XP Mode VM. (AFAIK) What? No, not even slightly true in any case whatsoever. XP Mode is a pre-installed VM image of XP Pro 32-bit, registered and activated against the virtual hardware of MS Virtual PC 2007. Since its entire purpose is to run XP apps which will not work on Win7 in a VM under Win7, it would be pointless if it was not the maximally-compatible standard 32-bit XP. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 4 09:26:27 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 10:26:27 -0400 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > On May 3, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > ... The system has been modified over time, with some types (e.g. > carrier pigeon -B-) dropped But then where does that leave RFC 1149 compliant networks? paul From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed May 4 09:29:02 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 15:29:02 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 04 May 2016 10:26:27 -0400" References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <01PZS8KF1UZQ00D9FB@beyondthepale.ie> Paul Koning wrote: > > > On May 3, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > > > ... The system has been modified over time, with some types (e.g. > > carrier pigeon -B-) dropped > > But then where does that leave RFC 1149 compliant networks? > > paul > Up in the air would be my guess. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ethan at 757.org Wed May 4 09:48:11 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 10:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Back in the early 90's I remember that many times I'd see a print > advertisement for a Video Toaster or a new genlock card, they'd say things > like "features you'd have to pay thousands for in a professional paintbox > or titler!" I always wondered what they were talking about, since I'd > never seen how broadcast was done back then (and still don't know). So, > I'm really talking about the tech of the 80's (since that's what the > marketing folks were referring to, I assume). > Here's what I could find that I'm speculating were the "competition" of > the time: I think this is one of the center companies of that world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chyron_Corporation I'm not a broadcast guy just a hobbyist but pay attention to lots of different tech stuff! A diver friend is a manager on a video production truck (top of the line type.) I've gotten to tour his current one and it was insane. I've never seen so much hardware in such a tight space (Full length trailer that slides it's entire length out to add 75% or more.) Early days was the Computer Eyes board for DOS PC. Then various windows capture systems. I've owned some PC video editing stuff like Matrox RT-2000 (sucked), and the Matrox Digisuite cards (found for sale online, soemone thought it was networking hardware but I recognized the ports.) Currently have Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio, which is very neat hardware and software. Haven't had a video toaster system... yet! -- Ethan O'Toole From Gottfried.Specht at t-online.de Wed May 4 11:18:58 2016 From: Gottfried.Specht at t-online.de (Gottfried Specht) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 18:18:58 +0200 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Erik, I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that "Gives the security necessary to protect a defined area of memory from alteration by a user program. Priority: Second highest priority interrupt (shared with memory parity). Operation: Initiated under program control; protects any amount of memory. Fence Register: Set under program control; memory below fence is protected. Interrupt: To trap cell for system routine when user program: a) Attempts to alter a protected location b) Attempts to jump into the protected area c) Attempts to execute an 1/0 instruction Violation Register: Contains memory address of violating instruction." (from the 1972 HP2100A Processor Description) The predecessor HP2116B (of 1968 vintage!) also had a "Memory Protect" board as an option, I cannot confirm it had the same functionality as the HP2100A above. IIRC, this was the main mechanism to protect the OS (RTE, DOS) from user code. Gottfried _____ Gottfried Specht | Gottfried at specht-online.com | +49 211 151695?+49 151 2911 2915 -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik Baigar Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Mai 2016 17:53 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? Dear Experts, during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be set up individually. - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the memory and IO ranges must exist. I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising the IO- and memory accesses. My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. for safety critical applications... Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having someting similar? Erik. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed May 4 11:56:54 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 12:56:54 -0400 Subject: Steve Dompier's coding... Message-ID: <191101d1a625$f6750540$e35f0fc0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> I took a peek at the access logs for the Cromemco Dazzler files that I recently put up on my web server. I'm gratified to see that a lot of people are taking advantage of the availability of these documents, that have not recently (if ever) been easily available on the web. I also see that a lot of people took the Dazzlemation HEX file and the Magenta Martini paper tape image, presumably to run on Udo Monk's great Windows Cromemco Z1 simulator. Also, thanks to everyone that generated pdf files for me! One thing I noticed is that not many people looked at the disassembly of Dazzlemation. If you are an 8080 or Z80 programmer (or any 8-bitter for that matter) I really recommend that you take a look, it's a real treat. I'm reliably informed that Mr. Dompier hand wrote that program LITERALLY (hand, pencil, paper), no editor, no assembler. He then toggled it in (or maybe raw keyed it in with a primitive ROM monitor) and went through a few iterations of: 1) store to paper tape 2) modify in memory 3) test 4) go to 1 It's neat to see some of the "tricks" he used and also the level of sophistication of the code. It does a lot of stuff in not a lot of bytes. Also, here and there, in "dead" areas, you can also see the debris of ideas that he started and then abandoned. Bill S. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed May 4 13:45:48 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 11:45:48 -0700 Subject: Release Notes for version 6.5 of TSX-Plus... Message-ID: <20160504114548.6789d2aa@asrock.bcwi.net> I just received from S&H a PDF copy of the TSX 6.50 Release Notes - and Jay has posted it to the http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org website. Lots of interesting/helpful information for all you TSX-Plus buffs... Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spc at conman.org Wed May 4 13:59:57 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:59:57 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > On 29 April 2016 at 21:06, Sean Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > > > I read that and it doesn't really seem that CAOS would have been much > > better than what actually came out. Okay, the potentially better resource > > tracking would be nice, but that's about it really. > > The story of ARX, the unfinished Acorn OS in Modula-2 for the > then-prototype Archimedes, is similar. > > No, it probably wouldn't have been all that radical. > > I wonder how much of Amiga OS' famed performance, compactness, etc. > was a direct result of its adaptation to the MMU-less 68000, and thus > could never have been implemented in a way that could have been made > more robust on later chips such as the 68030? Part of that was the MMU-less 68000. It certainly made message passing cheap (since you could just send a pointer and avoid copying the message) but QNX shows that even with copying, you can still have a fast operating system [1]. I think what made the Amiga so fast (even with a 7.1MHz CPU) was the specialized hardware. You pretty much used the MC68000 to script the hardware. > > I spent some hours on the Urbit site. Between the obscure writing, > > entirely new jargon and the "we're going to change the world" attitude, > > it very much feels like the Xanadu Project. > > I am not sure I'm the person to try to summarise it. > > I've nicked my own effort from my tech blog: > > I've not tried Urbit. (Yet.) > > But my impression is this: > > It's not obfuscatory for the hell of it. It is, yes, but for a valid > reason: that he doesn't want to waste time explaining or supporting > it. It's hard because you need to be v v bright to fathom it; > obscurity is a user filter. Red flag #1. > He claims NOT to be a Lisp type, not to have known anything much about > the language or LispMs, & to have re-invented some of the underlying > ideas independently. I'm not sure I believe this. > > My view of it from a technical perspective is this. (This may sound > over-dramatic.) > > We are so mired in the C world that modern CPUs are essentially C > machines. The conceptual model of C, of essentially all compilers, OSes, > imperative languages, &c. is a flawed one -- it is too simple an > abstraction. Q.v. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 Ah yes, Stanislav. Yet anohther person who goes on and on about how bad things are and makes oblique references to a better way without ever going into detail and expecting everyone to read his mind (yes, I don't have a high opinion of him either). And you do realize that Stanislav does not think highly of Urbit (he considers Yarvin as being deluded [2]). > Instead of bytes & blocks of them, the basic unit is the list. > Operations are defined in terms of lists, not bytes. You define a few > very simple operations & that's all you need. Nice in theory. Glacial performance in practice. > The way LispMs worked, AIUI, is that the machine language wasn't Lisp, > it was something far simpler, but designed to map onto Lisp concepts. > > I have been told that modern CPU design & optimisations & so on map > really poorly onto this set of primitives. That LispM CPUs were stack > machines, but modern processors are register machines. I am not > competent to judge the truth of this. The Lisp machines had tagged memory to help with the garbage collection and avoid wasting tons of memory. Yeah, it also had CPU instructions like CAR and CDR (even the IBM 704 had those [4]). Even the VAX nad QUEUE instructions to add and remove items from a linked list. I think it's really the tagged memory that made the Lisp machines special. > If Yarvin's claims are to be believed, he has done 2 intertwined things: > > [1] Experimentally or theoretically worked out something akin to these > primitives. > [2] Found or worked out a way to map them onto modern CPUs. List comprehension I believe. > This is his "machine code". Something that is not directly connected > or associated with modern CPUs' machine languages. He has built > something OTHER but defined his own odd language to describe it & > implement it. He has DELIBERATELY made it unlike anything else so you > don't bring across preconceptions & mental impurities. You need to > start over. Eh. I see that, and raise you a purely functional (as in---pure functions, no data) implementation of FizzBuzz: https://codon.com/programming-with-nothing > But, as far as I can judge, the design is sane, clean, & I am taking > it that he has reasons for the weirdness. I don't think it's > gratuitous. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I think he's being intentionally obtuse to appear profound. > So what on a LispM was the machine language, in Urbit, is Nock. It's a > whole new machine language layer, placed on top of an existing OS > stack, so I'm not surprised if it's horrendously inefficient. > > Compare with Ternac, a trinary computer implemented as a simulation on > a binary machine. It's that big a change. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternac > > Then, on top of this layer, he's built a new type of OS. This seems to > have conceptual & architectural analogies with LispM OSes such as > Genera. Only Yarvin claims not to be a Lisper, so he's re-invented > that wheel. That is Hoon. > > But he has an Agenda. > > Popehat explained it well here: > https://popehat.com/2013/12/06/nock-hoon-etc-for-non-vulcans-why-urbit-matters/ Yeah, I read that. Urbit is a functional underpinning. Of course we need to burn the disc packs. > I would be interested in an effort to layer a bare-metal-up LispM-type > layer on top of x86, ARM, &c. But Yarvin isn't here for the sheer > techno-wanking. Oh no. He wants to reinvent the world, via the medium > of encryption, digital currencies, &c. So he has a whole other layer > on top of Urbit, which is the REASON for Urbit -- a secure, P2P, > encrypted, next-gen computer system which happens to run on existing > machines & over the existing Internet, because that's the available > infrastructure, & whereas it's a horrid mess, it's what is there. You > can't ignore it, you can't achieve these grandiose goals within it, > so, you just layer your new stuff over the top. So does Stanislav. And so did Far? Rideau with TUNES. But at some point, the electrons need to meet the silicon or else it's just talk. Lots and lots of talk. Obsfucated talk at that. -spc [1] In the mid-90s I knew the owners of a local software company that sold commerical X servers. Their fastest server was under QNX, which used the native QNX message passing (copy data between two processes). [2] Yes, I'm using one crank [3] to support my position on another crank. That might make me a crank as well. I don't know. [3] Don't get me wrong---I love cranks. I find them facinating. I just don't necessarily believe in what they're saying. [4] It's a joke. Look it up. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 4 14:13:33 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:13:33 -0500 Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article Message-ID: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> I was skimming the Wikipedia article for tsx-plus, some of it seemed off to me. Anyone know the facts for sure? 1) They suggest tsxplus generally didn't support more than 8 users well. At my high school, we had 16 users on it constantly and it seemed to perform very well. Anyone have experience along those lines? 2) They say LEX-11 (wordprocessing) was included. I don't believe so. 3) They say a spreadsheet program from Saturn Software was included. I don't think so. Saturn had a wordprocessor, but it was a chargeable product and I don't think S&H distributed it. 4) They say the latest version of TSX-Plus has TCP/IP support. That's not true, at least not built in. There was a TCP/IP stack done by a 3rd party (actually, think it was a person that ported one and put it in a public contributed library) but that wasn't "included" by S&H. Do I have those things wrong? J From jason at textfiles.com Wed May 4 14:28:10 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 15:28:10 -0400 Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article In-Reply-To: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> References: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Jay West vs Wikipedia, always bet your money on Jay West On May 4, 2016 15:13, "Jay West" wrote: > I was skimming the Wikipedia article for tsx-plus, some of it seemed off to > me. Anyone know the facts for sure? > > > > 1) They suggest tsxplus generally didn't support more than 8 users > well. At my high school, we had 16 users on it constantly and it seemed to > perform very well. Anyone have experience along those lines? > > 2) They say LEX-11 (wordprocessing) was included. I don't believe so. > > 3) They say a spreadsheet program from Saturn Software was included. I > don't think so. Saturn had a wordprocessor, but it was a chargeable product > and I don't think S&H distributed it. > > 4) They say the latest version of TSX-Plus has TCP/IP support. That's > not true, at least not built in. There was a TCP/IP stack done by a 3rd > party (actually, think it was a person that ported one and put it in a > public contributed library) but that wasn't "included" by S&H. > > > > Do I have those things wrong? > > > > J > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 4 14:43:36 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 12:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article In-Reply-To: References: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Jason Scott wrote: > On Jay West vs Wikipedia, always bet your money on Jay West Wikipedia is an amateur effort, with some serious attempts to try to reduce the errors. It is almost inevitable that somebody will declare something to have been included if THEY had it, not even necessarily being aware that they had a third party add-on. User limits are assumed and often not correct. In the other direction, 30 years ago the college got a network system for PCs that "can handle hundreds of users". I have no idea what the theoretical limit was (number of bits in node numbers?) but we were the first to ever attempt 32, at which point it took nothing to bring it to its knees. > On May 4, 2016 15:13, "Jay West" wrote: > >> I was skimming the Wikipedia article for tsx-plus, some of it seemed off to >> me. Anyone know the facts for sure? >> >> >> >> 1) They suggest tsxplus generally didn't support more than 8 users >> well. At my high school, we had 16 users on it constantly and it seemed to >> perform very well. Anyone have experience along those lines? >> >> 2) They say LEX-11 (wordprocessing) was included. I don't believe so. >> >> 3) They say a spreadsheet program from Saturn Software was included. I >> don't think so. Saturn had a wordprocessor, but it was a chargeable product >> and I don't think S&H distributed it. >> >> 4) They say the latest version of TSX-Plus has TCP/IP support. That's >> not true, at least not built in. There was a TCP/IP stack done by a 3rd >> party (actually, think it was a person that ported one and put it in a >> public contributed library) but that wasn't "included" by S&H. >> >> >> >> Do I have those things wrong? From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 4 14:53:22 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 15:53:22 -0400 Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article In-Reply-To: References: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On May 4, 2016, at 3:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 4 May 2016, Jason Scott wrote: >> On Jay West vs Wikipedia, always bet your money on Jay West > > Wikipedia is an amateur effort, with some serious attempts to try to reduce the errors. If you see an error in Wikipedia, the friendly answer is to fix the error, not to grumble about it on mailing lists. paul From pete at petelancashire.com Wed May 4 13:30:06 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 11:30:06 -0700 Subject: Steve Dompier's coding... In-Reply-To: <6185387233014846534@unknownmsgid> References: <6185387233014846534@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Reminds me of a challenge I had in the early 80's The place I worked made IC test and evaluation systems, starting price in 1980 was around $300K and many where close to $1.5 million. This one was for IBM. They were designing a 288K bit ram and one thing they wanted was to be able to 'see' failed bits as parameters such as supply voltage were changed. If you looked at the die it was 9 'squares' of i think 128 x 256 ( i think that was the size) cell or bits. The 9 th was for parity. The memory was read by the system and a 0 or 1 was stored in a buffer in the system. The system was run by a PDP11/44 the display was a Tektronix GMA125 with option 42/43. The GMA 125 was the OEM display used in the 4116, a 25" DVST terminal. Option 42/43 was feed from a DR11. The 42/43 could be driven in Tek 401x format (that's the same you still see today when you put your X11 display into Tek mode) which had a point plotting set of commands. So one had to read in a loop this external memory which came back in some long forgotten 16 bits per something mode, calculate the position of the 'bit' which was in memory block x and position x and y in each block and either display a dot or plus or something at the respective location on the CRT. Doing it all in some time IBM wanted it done in .. loops within loops within loops and finally a test for 1 or 0 and out the DR11W. The only way I could get the code to meet IBM speed requirement was to do the unthinkable. Upon start the inner most work that was test for 'display if zero' or display if one' was modified to be branch of true or branch if false. Sometimes you just have to violate all the rules. Other fun things were using shifting bits and using indexing for some of the coordinate translations. oh well when every instruction time made a difference. it was challenging but fun -pete On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I took a peek at the access logs for the Cromemco Dazzler > files that I recently put up on my web server. I'm > gratified to see that a lot of people are taking advantage > of the availability of these documents, that have not > recently (if ever) been easily available on the web. I > also see that a lot of people took the Dazzlemation HEX > file and the Magenta Martini paper tape image, presumably > to run on Udo Monk's great Windows Cromemco Z1 simulator. > > Also, thanks to everyone that generated pdf files for me! > > One thing I noticed is that not many people looked at the > disassembly of Dazzlemation. If you are an 8080 or Z80 > programmer (or any 8-bitter for that matter) I really > recommend that you take a look, it's a real treat. I'm > reliably informed that Mr. Dompier hand wrote that program > LITERALLY (hand, pencil, paper), no editor, no assembler. > He then toggled it in (or maybe raw keyed it in with a > primitive ROM monitor) and went through a few iterations of: > > 1) store to paper tape > 2) modify in memory > 3) test > 4) go to 1 > > It's neat to see some of the "tricks" he used and also the > level of sophistication of the code. It does a lot of > stuff in not a lot of bytes. Also, here and there, in > "dead" areas, you can also see the debris of ideas that he > started and then abandoned. > > Bill S. > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 4 15:09:40 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 13:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article In-Reply-To: References: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >>> On Jay West vs Wikipedia, always bet your money on Jay West >> Wikipedia is an amateur effort, with some serious attempts to try to reduce the errors. > On Wed, 4 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > If you see an error in Wikipedia, the friendly answer is to fix the error, not to grumble about it on mailing lists. Ah, but Jay was responsible enough to ask his peers for confirmation before he asserted his information. I made a few corrections a while back about the history of the West Coast Computer Faire, including the dates of some of the shows that occurred after the stated ending date, and deleting the statement that said that WCCF BECAME Comdex. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed May 4 15:31:41 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 13:31:41 -0700 Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> Well I currently have that problem with fancy cars of Italian origins, and knowledgeable people told me the real solution is to take the parts out and send them to: stickynomore.com (yes, their real name) Parts get returned in two weeks, look like new and never get sticky again. At least that?s what I am told, and everyone in the business seem to agree. Haven?t tried it yet. Don?t know the cost either, might be way over the top for a joystick! Another solution I heard was to wipe with isopropyl alcohol or goo-be-gone, but common sense tells me it?s just going to dissolve the top layer and your problem might reappear. Haven?t tried it either. Darn rubber parts. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of tim lindner Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 at 10:44 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote: What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.? On a similar note, does any have a solution to firm up rubber that is just starting to gooify? I have some joystick feet that are just starting to get sticky. -- -- tim lindner "Proper User Policy apparently means Simon Says." From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed May 4 15:43:56 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 13:43:56 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: My 1974 HP 21MX, descendant of the HP 2100A, sure inherited this Memory Protect card. One register that you load, prevents access to any memory below the address of the register. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of Gottfried Specht Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 9:18 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? Erik, I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that "Gives the security necessary to protect a defined area of memory from alteration by a user program. Priority: Second highest priority interrupt (shared with memory parity). Operation: Initiated under program control; protects any amount of memory. Fence Register: Set under program control; memory below fence is protected. Interrupt: To trap cell for system routine when user program: a) Attempts to alter a protected location b) Attempts to jump into the protected area c) Attempts to execute an 1/0 instruction Violation Register: Contains memory address of violating instruction." (from the 1972 HP2100A Processor Description) The predecessor HP2116B (of 1968 vintage!) also had a "Memory Protect" board as an option, I cannot confirm it had the same functionality as the HP2100A above. IIRC, this was the main mechanism to protect the OS (RTE, DOS) from user code. Gottfried From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 4 15:46:57 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 13:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) In-Reply-To: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> References: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On a similar note, does any have a solution to firm up rubber that is > just starting to gooify? These days, it is hard to find "Ubik". From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed May 4 15:57:17 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 20:57:17 +0000 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED1CAB7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Sean Conner Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 12:00 PM > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> The way LispMs worked, AIUI, is that the machine language wasn't Lisp, >> it was something far simpler, but designed to map onto Lisp concepts. > The Lisp machines had tagged memory to help with the garbage collection > and avoid wasting tons of memory. Yeah, it also had CPU instructions like > CAR and CDR (even the IBM 704 had those [4]). > [4] It's a joke. Look it up. Of course it's a joke. LISP had CAR and CDR because of the 704, along with CTR and CPR! (OK, tags and prefixes got dropped in later implementations on later hardware.) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 4 16:02:59 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:02:59 -0500 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: <000001d1a648$56b69f00$0423dd00$@classiccmp.org> Marc wrote... ----- My 1974 HP 21MX, descendant of the HP 2100A, sure inherited this Memory Protect card. One register that you load, prevents access to any memory below the address of the register. ---- That's just the fence register (memory access interception) capability. There's also the I/O & HLT instruction interception, interrupt interception, etc. mentioned earlier. M.E.M. was standard option (ie. Included) with most E/F machines. I don't know if the 2114/5/6 had the same capabilities in the fence area.... J From chrise at pobox.com Wed May 4 16:07:07 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:07:07 -0500 Subject: tsx-plus wikipedia article In-Reply-To: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> References: <001901d1a639$0d79ae40$286d0ac0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20160504210707.GI3147@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (05/04/2016 at 02:13PM -0500), Jay West wrote: > > 4) They say the latest version of TSX-Plus has TCP/IP support. That's > not true, at least not built in. There was a TCP/IP stack done by a 3rd > party (actually, think it was a person that ported one and put it in a > public contributed library) but that wasn't "included" by S&H. I can't comment on what was included by S&H or not but I do remember coming across this TCP/IP package for TSX-PLUS years ago, http://shop-pdp.net/tshtml/tcpip.htm This may be one of the 3rd party ones you are referring to. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 4 16:36:34 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 15:36:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) In-Reply-To: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> References: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Curious Marc wrote: > Well I currently have that problem with fancy cars of Italian origins, > and knowledgeable people told me the real solution is to take the parts > out and send them to: stickynomore.com (yes, their real name) That's neat. I wish I had that problem (fancy cars of Italian origins). :-) > Don?t know the cost either, might be way over the top for a joystick! > Another solution I heard was to wipe with isopropyl alcohol or > goo-be-gone, but common sense tells me it?s Heh, there are guys who do their Ph.D on stuff like this (materials science). The main thing I would say (and sorry if it sounds trite) is that you want to make sure you use polar solvents and non-polar solvents (ie.. water or oil based) on the appropriate material. So, if it's an oil based adhesive, use a non-polar solvent like lighter fluid etc.. The problem with this is that (as others have said) it's very tough to know if the solvent will break down the rubber, too. You gotta test it. Just FYI, there is another possibility. Since you are a geek, you probably either have a 3D printer or know someone who does. If the part has a simple shape you can measure, grab a free copy of google sketchup (or whatever your favorite CAD program is) and model it. Then you can give the drawing to your friend had have him print the part(s) you need. If you are like me, and you have few friends, then you can use an online service like i.Materialize or Shapeways and have them print it. The key is to use a filament base that has the same dynamics as the part you are replacing. Some market-droid talk from a filament maker about rubber materials: " With Rubber-like PolyJet photopolymers, you can simulate rubber with different levels of hardness, elongation and tear resistance. " Thus, if it's not too crazy-complex of a part, you could probably do it for not-much-more money than what it'd cost to buy some kind of reconditioning solvents. If it *is* a complex part, you might consider doing a 3D scan first (again you can use a service) and then working off the that model. It's just a random idea that could help. -Swift From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed May 4 16:47:40 2016 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 23:47:40 +0200 Subject: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email... In-Reply-To: References: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20160504214740.GA4612@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 06:09:00AM -0700, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 4 May 2016, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > >Now I even started to think, very shyly, how nice would it have been [...] > >can sell me "business" service. Ugh. This is tempting but I am > >strong. :-) > > > There are services like http://www.noip.com/free where you can get a > DNS entry for dynamically changing IP addresses. This way you can > run a BBS without having to buy a business class account. Yeah... unless I am behind a NAT - and I believe I am behind at least two, of which at least one is out of my control, hence no making holes (or tunnels). So if I wanted to host it at home, I would have to buy business account. And build me some "infrastructure". At the moment, time is a limited resource and I have to spent it wisely. > You could even bring up an AWS instance for about $5 a month, which > is great for doing BBS work. :) Hehe, trying to lure me? See, maybe I would went for it when world and I were a bit younger. Nowadays... I believe a so called "provider" is responsible for what he provides, even if he did not do anything himself. So I would have to be on a permament watch, catching probabilistic but maybe just imagined guys who would like to pee into my morning tea for fun or (their own) profit. Or rather, please themselves without any regard for my morning tea or me. Looking from such angle, I guess it is much easier to do just small personal type of a project, read-only static pages etc. We will see. A project or two later, few unread books later, we will see. Well I am not sure what we will see, but just seeing is great thing to do, too :-). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 4 17:02:08 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 15:02:08 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? (i.e. was the word invented before then?). If so, the 1700 had a rather elaborate system of memory and peripheral protection. Circa 1965 (at least that's the date on my manual). --Chuck From macro at linux-mips.org Wed May 4 18:17:52 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 00:17:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo) In-Reply-To: References: <87FE2851-E929-48B6-8ECD-162618760868@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Don?t know the cost either, might be way over the top for a joystick! > > Another solution I heard was to wipe with isopropyl alcohol or > > goo-be-gone, but common sense tells me it?s > > Heh, there are guys who do their Ph.D on stuff like this (materials > science). The main thing I would say (and sorry if it sounds trite) is > that you want to make sure you use polar solvents and non-polar solvents > (ie.. water or oil based) on the appropriate material. So, if it's an oil > based adhesive, use a non-polar solvent like lighter fluid etc.. The > problem with this is that (as others have said) it's very tough to know if > the solvent will break down the rubber, too. You gotta test it. That's the rule of thumb, but as usually there are exceptions. For example water and cyclohexane are strictly polar and non-polar respectively, but ethanol and IPA are a bit of both, owing to their molecules' structure (IPA's also highly hygroscopic). Depending on the intended use this may be an advantage or disadvantage, and that of course also means you need to research any solvent before use, by either studying available data or empirically. Maciej From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed May 4 18:46:42 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:46:42 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <000001d1a648$56b69f00$0423dd00$@classiccmp.org> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <000001d1a648$56b69f00$0423dd00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006ACFA7-94EE-4BE4-9932-7532F6B8E1E3@gmail.com> > Marc wrote... > ----- > My 1974 HP 21MX, descendant of the HP 2100A, sure inherited this Memory Protect card. One register that you load, prevents access to any memory below the address of the register. > ---- > That's just the fence register (memory access interception) capability. There's also the I/O & HLT instruction interception, interrupt interception, etc. mentioned earlier. [...] > J Yes, I didn't know it was more comprehensive. I just learned it from this thread! Is this a good message board or what... Marc From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed May 4 19:06:36 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 17:06:36 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> Message-ID: In the not mini but very maxi category, I just learned that IBM implemented memory protection as an RPQ (customer feature) at the request of the MIT folks that built the first IBM time sharing system (CTSS, the predecessor of Multics), on their IBM 7094. Around 1963, unless it was already implemented in the IBM 7090 which would have been 1961. At least that's my cursory understanding of it from www.multicians.org/thvv/7094.html . I was very surprised it was that early! Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 4, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? > (i.e. was the word invented before then?). > > If so, the 1700 had a rather elaborate system of memory and peripheral > protection. Circa 1965 (at least that's the date on my manual). > > --Chuck > From andy.holt at tesco.net Wed May 4 19:07:00 2016 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 00:07:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> > Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? > (i.e. was the word invented before then?). Though functionally it sort of had the minicomputer nature, it was physically a bit large for that term ? would have been called a "process control" computer. I also don't think I heard the word "minicomputer" until a couple of years after I first saw a CDC 1700. From chd at chdickman.com Wed May 4 19:52:29 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 20:52:29 -0400 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface Message-ID: Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape punch interface? I found one on a Swedish website. The punch parallel input looks like it is TTL compatible, but I can't find anything in the documentation that describes the input voltage specifications. Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 4 19:59:28 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 00:59:28 +0000 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most punches with a parallel input can be cross wired to a parallel port. If the strobe is upside down, you can use one of the other signals. Many punches have a jumper for the strobe polarity. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Charles Dickman Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 5:52:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape punch interface? I found one on a Swedish website. The punch parallel input looks like it is TTL compatible, but I can't find anything in the documentation that describes the input voltage specifications. Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 4 20:21:18 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 21:21:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Crippled connectivity [was Re: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email...] In-Reply-To: <20160504214740.GA4612@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> <20160504214740.GA4612@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <201605050121.VAA03917@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> There are services like http://www.noip.com/free where you can get a >> DNS entry for dynamically changing IP addresses. This way you can >> run a BBS without having to buy a business class account. > Yeah... unless I am behind a NAT - and I believe I am behind at least > two, of which at least one is out of my control, hence no making > holes (or tunnels). Sure you can tunnel; you just have to initiate the tunnel connection from the inside. I too have a host (at work) that's behind double NAT; it initiates and maintains a tunnel connection to an external host, and voila! my external hosts can reach the internal host. Not as good as native connectivity, but it works "well enough". (Yes, work knows about it. They don't mind.) Of course, this needs a friendly host on the outside. In my case, I find that cost well worth paying.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 4 21:33:03 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 19:33:03 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> On 05/04/2016 05:07 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > >> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? >> (i.e. was the word invented before then?). > > Though functionally it sort of had the minicomputer nature, it was > physically a bit large for that term ? would have been called a > "process control" computer. I also don't think I heard the word > "minicomputer" until a couple of years after I first saw a CDC 1700. Well, I don't know. By the time the Cyber 18 came out, it was a 120 VAC powered unit that a strongish person could lift off the floor (about 90 lbs)--and functionally pretty much the same machine as the original 1700, just implemented with more advanced technology. If that's not a minicomputer, I don't know what is. We used them as data concentrators hooked to leased lines, card readers and punches and various other peripherals. If the 1700 isn't a minicomputer, you'll have to correct the Wikipedia article. --Chuck From andy.holt at tesco.net Wed May 4 22:24:00 2016 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 03:24:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> Message-ID: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of the term "minicomputer" I strongly suspect it was around the time that the PDP11/20 came out or slightly later. The IBM 1130 and 1800 were comparable to the /original/ CDC 1700, were similarly launched in the mid 60s, but similarly they were not /at that time/ referred to as minis. In retrospect we might well call these minicomputers but that is not the question as stated. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, 5 May, 2016 3:33:03 AM Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? On 05/04/2016 05:07 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > >> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? >> (i.e. was the word invented before then?). > > Though functionally it sort of had the minicomputer nature, it was > physically a bit large for that term ? would have been called a > "process control" computer. I also don't think I heard the word > "minicomputer" until a couple of years after I first saw a CDC 1700. Well, I don't know. By the time the Cyber 18 came out, it was a 120 VAC powered unit that a strongish person could lift off the floor (about 90 lbs)--and functionally pretty much the same machine as the original 1700, just implemented with more advanced technology. If that's not a minicomputer, I don't know what is. We used them as data concentrators hooked to leased lines, card readers and punches and various other peripherals. If the 1700 isn't a minicomputer, you'll have to correct the Wikipedia article. --Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed May 4 22:32:04 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 20:32:04 -0700 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <572ABEB4.4010800@sbcglobal.net> On 5/4/2016 5:52 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape > punch interface? > > I found one on a Swedish website. The punch parallel input looks like > it is TTL compatible, but I can't find anything in the documentation > that describes the input voltage specifications. > > Chuck > Check this link out: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~pmaydell/misc/cardpunch/dongle.htm It shows how to build a PC to 4070 interface. Basically inverting a few signals. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 00:07:10 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 22:07:10 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <572AD4FE.9030201@sydex.com> On 05/04/2016 08:24 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of > the term "minicomputer" I strongly suspect it was around the time > that the PDP11/20 came out or slightly later. The IBM 1130 and 1800 > were comparable to the /original/ CDC 1700, were similarly launched > in the mid 60s, but similarly they were not /at that time/ referred > to as minis. Merriam Webster and the OED gives the first published use in 1967 http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/1967_words/ The 1700 would fit into that in at least one of its incarnations. The 160A would not, as it went out of production in 1965, for example. Sometimes words can be misleading. The word "microcomputer" when initially used, did not mean what we think of today--that of a certain level of integration of an IC that includes most of the component parts of a computer. AES used this same term much earlier for "a computer than can be microprogrammed" as implemented in a cage of of cards. --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu May 5 00:10:31 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 22:10:31 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: For the fun of the argument: I was privileged enough to see Carl's IBM 1130, and to my newbie eye, it may justifiably earn the title of "small" computer, when compared to its brethren of the time. But it would never occur to me to call it a mini! It's quite a biggie computer actually. Heavy stuff, forklift or winch needed to put it safely in the truck as I recall. Then I thought our IBM 1401 was big. That's when more knowledgeable people pointed me to the IBM 7090. Now that's *really* big. And then you have SAGE. Now that's huge. Or insane, depending on your engineering point of view :-). Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 4, 2016, at 8:24 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > > Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of the term "minicomputer" > I strongly suspect it was around the time that the PDP11/20 came out or slightly later. > The IBM 1130 and 1800 were comparable to the /original/ CDC 1700, were similarly launched in the mid 60s, > but similarly they were not /at that time/ referred to as minis. > > In retrospect we might well call these minicomputers but that is not the question as stated. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Thursday, 5 May, 2016 3:33:03 AM > Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > >> On 05/04/2016 05:07 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: >> >>> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? >>> (i.e. was the word invented before then?). >> >> Though functionally it sort of had the minicomputer nature, it was >> physically a bit large for that term ? would have been called a >> "process control" computer. I also don't think I heard the word >> "minicomputer" until a couple of years after I first saw a CDC 1700. > > Well, I don't know. By the time the Cyber 18 came out, it was a 120 VAC > powered unit that a strongish person could lift off the floor (about 90 > lbs)--and functionally pretty much the same machine as the original > 1700, just implemented with more advanced technology. > > If that's not a minicomputer, I don't know what is. > > We used them as data concentrators hooked to leased lines, card readers > and punches and various other peripherals. > > If the 1700 isn't a minicomputer, you'll have to correct the Wikipedia > article. > > --Chuck > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 5 00:08:25 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 05:08:25 +0000 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape > punch interface? Are you talking about a modern USB-parallel cable type interface or the original PC parallel interface where you could individually control all the lines? > I found one on a Swedish website. The punch parallel input looks like > it is TTL compatible, but I can't find anything in the documentation > that describes the input voltage specifications. There are at least 3 versions of the 4070 main board. The earliest (and in my experience most common) one uses DTL running at 6V. Later ones are TTL. However in all cases I've had no problems directly connected TTL signals to the 4070. No idea what modern 'TTL compatible' (but not real TTL) would do. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 00:29:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 22:29:12 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <572ADA28.5060807@sydex.com> On 05/04/2016 10:10 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > For the fun of the argument: I was privileged enough to see Carl's > IBM 1130, and to my newbie eye, it may justifiably earn the title of > "small" computer, when compared to its brethren of the time. But it > would never occur to me to call it a mini! It's quite a biggie > computer actually. Heavy stuff, forklift or winch needed to put it > safely in the truck as I recall. Then I thought our IBM 1401 was big. > That's when more knowledgeable people pointed me to the IBM 7090. Now > that's *really* big. And then you have SAGE. Now that's huge. Or > insane, depending on your engineering point of view :-). On the other hand, the PB250 was contained in a single 5' rack (table model), ran off of a single 15A 120V circuit and weighed a bit over 100 lbs. I'd call it a minicomputer if it weren't for the fact that it was brought out around 1961. 22 bit words. Up to about 16KW in the box; magnetostrictive delay line memory, bit-serial ALU. IIRC, lotsa diodes, but comparatively few (ca. 300-400) transistors. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 5 01:23:36 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 02:23:36 -0400 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: > Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of the term "minicomputer" > I strongly suspect it was around the time that the PDP11/20 came out or slightly later. Ngram shows the first real use about 1967, with a peak about 1983. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 5 01:34:20 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 02:34:20 -0400 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> References: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Well, I don't know. By the time the Cyber 18 came out, it was a 120 VAC > powered unit that a strongish person could lift off the floor (about 90 > lbs)--and functionally pretty much the same machine as the original > 1700, just implemented with more advanced technology. 1774 was from about 1967, and basically a six foot rack. 1784 was from about 1974, and about the same volume as a PDP-8/e. I think the Wiki article may be wrong about the date of the original 1700 systems (1704) being mid-1966. That seems late. When I get back home, I might look at the chunks I have to see if I can get date codes. > If that's not a minicomputer, I don't know what is. Wasn't minicomputer really a marketing term, anyway? Suits and all? -- Will From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Wed May 4 16:00:44 2016 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 17:00:44 -0400 Subject: Memory and I/O protection on the 940 Message-ID: Al mentioned the 940 so I thought I would fill in the details: Lichtenberger and Pirtle extended the hardware to include a page map: 14 bits of VA was divided into 3 bits of page # and 11 bits of offset. The 8 pages were held in 2 x 24 bit words divided into a 8 x 6 bit page numbers. The high order bit of the mapped page number served as the Read Only bit. This meant that "subsystems" (a.k.a. applications) could be shared between users. Additionally, the instruction set was protected against users with specific prohibition against using the I/O instructions. This was described in FJCC 1965 with modifications done in 1964. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 5 03:15:35 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:15:35 +0100 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <08d501d1a6a6$4d192310$e74b6930$@gmail.com> I thought we were talking Mini Computers. The Ferranti/Manchester Atlas had virtual memory of a sort which provided protection, and indeed IBM bought the Virtual Memory patents from Manchester University. I gather the PDP/11 received Memory Mapping boards early in its life, didn't these offer some protection? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curious > Marc > Sent: 05 May 2016 01:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > > In the not mini but very maxi category, I just learned that IBM implemented > memory protection as an RPQ (customer feature) at the request of the MIT > folks that built the first IBM time sharing system (CTSS, the predecessor of > Multics), on their IBM 7094. Around 1963, unless it was already implemented > in the IBM 7090 which would have been 1961. At least that's my cursory > understanding of it from www.multicians.org/thvv/7094.html . I was very > surprised it was that early! > Marc > > Sent from my iPad > > > On May 4, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? > > (i.e. was the word invented before then?). > > > > If so, the 1700 had a rather elaborate system of memory and peripheral > > protection. Circa 1965 (at least that's the date on my manual). > > > > --Chuck > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 5 03:17:19 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:17:19 +0100 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <08d801d1a6a6$8afb9320$a0f2b960$@gmail.com> But an original PDP/11 is almost as massive...... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curious > Marc > Sent: 05 May 2016 06:11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > > For the fun of the argument: I was privileged enough to see Carl's IBM 1130, > and to my newbie eye, it may justifiably earn the title of "small" computer, > when compared to its brethren of the time. But it would never occur to me to > call it a mini! It's quite a biggie computer actually. Heavy stuff, forklift or winch > needed to put it safely in the truck as I recall. Then I thought our IBM 1401 was > big. That's when more knowledgeable people pointed me to the IBM 7090. Now > that's *really* big. And then you have SAGE. Now that's huge. Or insane, > depending on your engineering point of view :-). > Marc > > Sent from my iPad > > > On May 4, 2016, at 8:24 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > > > > Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of the > term "minicomputer" > > I strongly suspect it was around the time that the PDP11/20 came out or > slightly later. > > The IBM 1130 and 1800 were comparable to the /original/ CDC 1700, were > > similarly launched in the mid 60s, but similarly they were not /at that time/ > referred to as minis. > > > > In retrospect we might well call these minicomputers but that is not the > question as stated. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chuck Guzis" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Thursday, 5 May, 2016 3:33:03 AM > > Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in > Minis)? > > > >> On 05/04/2016 05:07 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > >> > >>> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? > >>> (i.e. was the word invented before then?). > >> > >> Though functionally it sort of had the minicomputer nature, it was > >> physically a bit large for that term ? would have been called a > >> "process control" computer. I also don't think I heard the word > >> "minicomputer" until a couple of years after I first saw a CDC 1700. > > > > Well, I don't know. By the time the Cyber 18 came out, it was a 120 > > VAC powered unit that a strongish person could lift off the floor > > (about 90 lbs)--and functionally pretty much the same machine as the > > original 1700, just implemented with more advanced technology. > > > > If that's not a minicomputer, I don't know what is. > > > > We used them as data concentrators hooked to leased lines, card > > readers and punches and various other peripherals. > > > > If the 1700 isn't a minicomputer, you'll have to correct the Wikipedia > > article. > > > > --Chuck > > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 5 03:41:32 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:41:32 +0200 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-05-03 17:52 GMT+02:00 Erik Baigar : > > Dear Experts, > > during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: > What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered > memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: > > - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) > - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) > - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be > set up individually. > - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. > - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the > memory and IO ranges must exist. > > I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented > and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as > Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module > which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an > additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising > the IO- and memory accesses. > > My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding > protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual > processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. > for safety critical applications... > > Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to > support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some > Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. > > Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having > someting similar? > > Erik. > > What about the Norsk Data series of machines, NORD-1, NORD-10 etc. The NORD-10 had memory protection and paging. Circa 1973. According to the wiki page the NORD-1 had an option to provide virtual memory. The wiki page claim the NORD-1 to be the first mini to have virtual memory (1969). I cannot really tell if this is true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord-1 /Mattis From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 03:35:50 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:35:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Gottfried Specht wrote: > I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that Hi Gottfried, thanks for the excellent answer - yes I think this is exactly what matches my specification! Thanks. It is really astonishing how many people know a lot on various machines which is really great. I suspected that HP had something, too. > Fence Register: Set under program control; memory below fence is protected. This is a clever and somewhat outstanding feature - most others use protection on basis of blocks ar abuse the virtual memory for the purpose ;-) Best regards, Erik. > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik Baigar > Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Mai 2016 17:53 > An: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Betreff: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > > > Dear Experts, > > during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: > What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered > memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: > > - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) > - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) > - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be > set up individually. > - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. > - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the > memory and IO ranges must exist. > > I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising the IO- and memory accesses. > > My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. > for safety critical applications... > > Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. > > Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having someting similar? > > Erik. > From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 03:46:07 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:46:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <08d501d1a6a6$4d192310$e74b6930$@gmail.com> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <572A7160.2080206@sydex.com> <08d501d1a6a6$4d192310$e74b6930$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Dave Wade wrote: > I thought we were talking Mini Computers. The Ferranti/Manchester Atlas had > virtual memory of a sort which provided protection, and indeed IBM bought > the Virtual Memory patents from Manchester University. I gather the PDP/11 > received Memory Mapping boards early in its life, didn't these offer some > protection? Yes, originally I had Minis in mind, and yes - this term is not well defined. Anyhow I learned a lot from all the answers as many differnet machines have been covered in contrast to the normally DEC biased traffic here. What still is a quite interesting question for me is, that purely "mapped memory" or "virtual memory" does not match the answerr to my question as it still lacks the IO aspect and I'd call it only memory protection if there is a method to prevent ordinary programs from modifying the memory map. So from my point of view the HP2100 matches the criteria of my initial question, the Rolm APM does but probabaly some others mentioned for their virtual memory do not. E.g. the DG mapped memory (Nova3 or Eclipse) lacks the "user prohibited to modify map" feature I think. And for sure: Atlas was a very interesting machine with great capa- bilities for its days! Erik. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curious >> Marc >> Sent: 05 May 2016 01:07 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in > Minis)? >> >> In the not mini but very maxi category, I just learned that IBM > implemented >> memory protection as an RPQ (customer feature) at the request of the MIT >> folks that built the first IBM time sharing system (CTSS, the predecessor > of >> Multics), on their IBM 7094. Around 1963, unless it was already > implemented >> in the IBM 7090 which would have been 1961. At least that's my cursory >> understanding of it from www.multicians.org/thvv/7094.html . I was very >> surprised it was that early! >> Marc >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On May 4, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>> Is the CDC 1700 considered to be in the family of "minicomputers"? >>> (i.e. was the word invented before then?). >>> >>> If so, the 1700 had a rather elaborate system of memory and peripheral >>> protection. Circa 1965 (at least that's the date on my manual). >>> >>> --Chuck >>> > From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 03:50:24 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:50:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160426185451.3830418C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5720DF4B.8080001@sbcglobal.net> <5726EE5A.5030307@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > Google JETDS. > > It will tell all. Thanks - that is the perfect link. There is some information on the AN/AYK-14, an airborne computer, on the web... > On May 3, 2016 4:35 PM, "Erik Baigar" wrote: > >> >> IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something >>>> nomenclature). >>>> >>> >>> 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64. >>> >> >> Yes and the 1602 was the AN/UYK-19. >> >> land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for >>> aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**" >>> (and also not so freaking heavy!). >>> >> >> Just out of curiosity: Is there an explanation, what the other >> letters Y and K mean? >> >> Erik. >> > From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 03:53:42 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:53:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: <20160503210117.A8DCF18C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160503210117.A8DCF18C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > A set of standards for allowed levels of emissions (in particular, > electro-magnetic radiation) from communication/computing gear, intended to > prevent listening to the activity of that gear: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename) Thanks, very interesting reading and this must be a quite sensitive topic. As one party tries to develop equipment according to this standard, other parties will try to "listen" even than... From radiotest at juno.com Thu May 5 06:54:32 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 07:54:32 -0400 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.syn acor.com> References: <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160505074916.03e822b8@juno.com> At 11:24 PM 5/4/2016, Andy Holt wrote: >Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of the term "minicomputer" I am not the OED, but when I first saw the TX-0 and the PDP-1 at MIT in late 1964 or early 1965 I believe that I heard the term minicomputer applied to them. Certainly when I next saw them in the summer of 1967 both were being called minicomputers by the staff there. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From tingox at gmail.com Thu May 5 07:09:58 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 14:09:58 +0200 Subject: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:20 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > > Ah, positive news. In the meantime I've been half-busy creating a > local (private, for now) re-construction of NDwiki, from archive.org. I was thinking about doing the same, but so far I haven't. > BTW in case you don't > have a public server available I do have a mostly spare Linode server, > or alternatively I could get another - they're relatively cheap, and > have great network access. Thanks. There is also Jay West's standing offer to host classic computing websites. Anyway, the two busy Swedes will decide; I'm just offering to help. I will happily implement / set up the solution they decide on, as long as the result is that NDwiki.org is online again. I will post any news when I have them (since busy people is involved, it could take some time). -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From tingox at gmail.com Thu May 5 07:27:36 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 14:27:36 +0200 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:08 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape >> punch interface? > > Are you talking about a modern USB-parallel cable type interface or the > original PC parallel interface where you could individually control all > the lines? FWIW, In cases where a real parallel port is missing (happens all the time now), you can easily and quite cheaply use an Arduino-type microcontroller instead. Easily programmed, comes in 3.3V and 5V versions (for the I/O pins), and many (most?) versions have usb already on board. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 03:48:06 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:48:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Memory and I/O protection on the 940 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2016, Mark Kahrs wrote: > Al mentioned the 940 so I thought I would fill in the details: > > Lichtenberger and Pirtle extended the hardware to include a page map: 14 > bits of VA was divided into 3 bits of page # and 11 bits of offset. The 8 > pages were held in 2 x 24 bit words divided into a 8 x 6 bit page numbers. > The high order bit of the mapped page number served as the Read Only bit. > This meant that "subsystems" (a.k.a. applications) could be shared between > users. > > Additionally, the instruction set was protected against users with specific > prohibition against using the I/O instructions. > > This was described in FJCC 1965 with modifications done in 1964. Yes, perfect match to the criteria in my question! Here we have an other very early one... Thanks, Erik! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 5 08:17:53 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) Message-ID: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Erik Baigar > very interesting reading If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/tunnel-200702.pdf Some of the traffic that was intercepted was teletype traffic - which had been encrypted. However, the equipment that connected the gear to the line allowed a tiny electronic whisper of the original plain-text onto the line, along with the encrypted form, and it was possible to read the plaintext off the line with suitable gear. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 5 09:15:40 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:15:40 -0400 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160503210117.A8DCF18C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On May 5, 2016, at 4:53 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > > > On Tue, 3 May 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> A set of standards for allowed levels of emissions (in particular, >> electro-magnetic radiation) from communication/computing gear, intended to >> prevent listening to the activity of that gear: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename) > > Thanks, very interesting reading and this must be a quite sensitive > topic. As one party tries to develop equipment according to this > standard, other parties will try to "listen" even than... One of the more interesting Tempest creations is a font (for CRT displays, i.e., ones with analog video) that drastically reduces the emissions from the video signal. It was created by Markus Kuhn and Ross Anderson at U. Cambridge. https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/emsec/softtempest-faq.html paul From db at db.net Thu May 5 10:26:28 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 11:26:28 -0400 Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160505152628.GA68874@night.db.net> On Thu, May 05, 2016 at 09:17:53AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Erik Baigar > > > very interesting reading > > If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the > so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': I remember working in a TEMPEST room up here in Ottawa (CDC Canada). It echoed as I recalled. Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From useddec at gmail.com Thu May 5 10:33:52 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:33:52 -0500 Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: The actual Tempest specs used to be classified. On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Erik Baigar > > > very interesting reading > > If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the > so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold > http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/tunnel-200702.pdf > > Some of the traffic that was intercepted was teletype traffic - which had > been encrypted. However, the equipment that connected the gear to the line > allowed a tiny electronic whisper of the original plain-text onto the line, > along with the encrypted form, and it was possible to read the plaintext > off > the line with suitable gear. > > Noel > From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 10:38:33 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 17:38:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Paul Anderson wrote: > The actual Tempest specs used to be classified. Very understandable and a good idea! From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 10:40:58 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 17:40:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the > so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold > http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/tunnel-200702.pdf > Many thanks - that is indeed an outstanding project and especially the original report is a better reading than most books on such stories. They really transcribed a huge amount of data and everything manually... One does not really want to know what is possible (and done) today - where there is no need to dig tunnels any more ;-) From erik at baigar.de Thu May 5 10:48:09 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 17:48:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: <20160503210117.A8DCF18C105@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote: [snip] > displays, i.e., ones with analog video) that drastically reduces the > emissions from the video signal. It was created by Markus Kuhn and Ross > Anderson at U. Cambridge. > https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/emsec/softtempest-faq.html Quite interesting, but I believe that nowadays this is a smaller problem than the omnipresent internet connection and the huge amount of black-box software with even more backdoors, security-holes and calling-home features which all are claimed to be there just to make software better and help the customer. OK, this thread is drifting away from the vintage computing field ;-) Thanks for the link! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 5 11:37:05 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 09:37:05 -0700 Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <48781383-D54A-4EA0-9CDD-997AD41D3101@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-05, at 6:17 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Erik Baigar > >> very interesting reading > > If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the > so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold > http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/tunnel-200702.pdf > > Some of the traffic that was intercepted was teletype traffic - which had > been encrypted. However, the equipment that connected the gear to the line > allowed a tiny electronic whisper of the original plain-text onto the line, > along with the encrypted form, and it was possible to read the plaintext off > the line with suitable gear. A Model 28 teletype with DND (Ca. Department of National Defence) tags on it I was working on a couple years ago had been modified for what I can only presume to be TEMPEST qualification. All the standard wiring and electrical stuff - not just the current loop signal wiring but even the basic AC line wiring for the motor and such, all the way out to the wall plug - had been removed and replaced with shielded cable and connectors. The normal keyboard contacts and print selection magnets were replaced with units enclosed in shielded housings. The power line had a large noise filter in it's own RF-shielded housing. From useddec at gmail.com Thu May 5 11:49:13 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 11:49:13 -0500 Subject: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx) In-Reply-To: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Here is a good look at the project from a few different perspectives. It is a somewhat popular story within the various intelligence communities that can probably still cause arguments. They gathered so many tapes it took tears to through them, and a lot of people believe the Russians knew about it the whole time, I don't think No Such Agency was around yet. It's a good read, enjoy! http*David C. Martin* (born July 28, 1943) is an American television news correspondent , journalist , and author who works for CBS News . He is currently the network's National Security Correspondent reporting from The Pentagon , a position he has held since 1993. Martin has contributed reports to the CBS Evening News , 60 Minutes , and48 Hours .[1] :// books.google.com/books?id=kpNwCgiTJXEC On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Erik Baigar > > > very interesting reading > > If you want to see a great example of why it was important, check out the > so-called 'Berlin Tunnel': > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold > http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/tunnel-200702.pdf > > Some of the traffic that was intercepted was teletype traffic - which had > been encrypted. However, the equipment that connected the gear to the line > allowed a tiny electronic whisper of the original plain-text onto the line, > along with the encrypted form, and it was possible to read the plaintext > off > the line with suitable gear. > > Noel > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 5 12:06:34 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 12:06:34 -0500 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572ADA28.5060807@sydex.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572ADA28.5060807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572B7D9A.3080801@pico-systems.com> On 05/05/2016 12:29 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On the other hand, the PB250 was contained in a single 5' rack (table > model), ran off of a single 15A 120V circuit and weighed a bit over 100 > lbs. I'd call it a minicomputer if it weren't for the fact that it was > brought out around 1961. 22 bit words. Up to about 16KW in the box; > magnetostrictive delay line memory, bit-serial ALU. IIRC, lotsa diodes, > but comparatively few (ca. 300-400) transistors. > > Another "mini" was the Bendix G-15, 300+ vacuum tubes, 3000 diodes and a drum memory. Certainly no memory protection on it. It was the size of a refrigerator. And another, the LINC, discrete transistor machine, 2K 12-bit words and a software driven screen, so it was actually interactive. Storage was LINCtapes, the predecessor to DECtapes. Fit in a single 5' relay rack, with a console on a desk. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 12:19:45 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:19:45 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572B7D9A.3080801@pico-systems.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572ADA28.5060807@sydex.com> <572B7D9A.3080801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <572B80B1.2070700@sydex.com> On 05/05/2016 10:06 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > And another, the LINC, discrete transistor machine, 2K 12-bit words > and a software driven screen, so it was actually interactive. Storage > was LINCtapes, the predecessor to DECtapes. Fit in a single 5' relay > rack, with a console on a desk. ...and, of course, the tabletop Univac 422. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 12:34:16 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 10:34:16 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572B8418.7070405@sydex.com> On 05/04/2016 11:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Wasn't minicomputer really a marketing term, anyway? Suits and all? Well, it was the sixties, after all. We all forget "midicomputer". :) One thing that some may not know about the 1700 is that it had a *per-word* protection bit as well as I/O protection on a "per device" basis. I don't know of any other computers with that feature. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 5 12:58:00 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 13:58:00 -0400 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572B8418.7070405@sydex.com> References: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> <572B8418.7070405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6313DA36-FC9D-4828-89EF-7D679F12FCBE@comcast.net> > On May 5, 2016, at 1:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 05/04/2016 11:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Wasn't minicomputer really a marketing term, anyway? Suits and all? > > Well, it was the sixties, after all. We all forget "midicomputer". :) > > One thing that some may not know about the 1700 is that it had a > *per-word* protection bit as well as I/O protection on a "per device" > basis. I don't know of any other computers with that feature. Burroughs mainframes? While the tag bits aren't quite semantically equivalent to protection, you get some of the same benefits. paul From Gottfried.Specht at t-online.de Thu May 5 13:55:55 2016 From: Gottfried.Specht at t-online.de (Gottfried Specht) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 20:55:55 +0200 Subject: AW: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: <01a401d1a6ff$c13125f0$439371d0$@t-online.de> Thanks, Erik. How do I remember this ca. 40 years later? Well, while servicing these systems they would frequently stop with a "Memory Protect Error" (various Operating Systems). Guess what the intuitive action was: Replace the "Memory Protect Board" - which n e v e r fixed the problem. So digging into the technology it became clear, that the Memory Protect Board in these cases had only fulfilled its duty: protect the memory below the fence register from some other piece of hardware (usually a processor or DMA-board) running havoc in memory. That learning stuck ... Kind regards, Gottfried _____ Gottfried Specht | Gottfried at specht-online.com | +49 211 151695?+49 151 2911 2915 -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik Baigar Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. Mai 2016 10:36 An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Betreff: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? On Wed, 4 May 2016, Gottfried Specht wrote: > I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A > (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that Hi Gottfried, thanks for the excellent answer - yes I think this is exactly what matches my specification! Thanks. It is really astonishing how many people know a lot on various machines which is really great. I suspected that HP had something, too. > Fence Register: Set under program control; memory below fence is protected. This is a clever and somewhat outstanding feature - most others use protection on basis of blocks ar abuse the virtual memory for the purpose ;-) Best regards, Erik. > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik > Baigar > Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Mai 2016 17:53 > An: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Betreff: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > > > Dear Experts, > > during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: > What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered > memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: > > - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) > - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) > - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be > set up individually. > - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. > - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the > memory and IO ranges must exist. > > I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising the IO- and memory accesses. > > My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. > for safety critical applications... > > Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. > > Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having someting similar? > > Erik. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 5 14:45:33 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 12:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572B8418.7070405@sydex.com> References: <775351912.11108.1462406820079.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572AB0DF.7090002@sydex.com> <572B8418.7070405@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> Wasn't minicomputer really a marketing term, anyway? Suits and all? > On Thu, 5 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, it was the sixties, after all. We all forget "midicomputer". :) We try to. My sexist memories of miniskirts are what lets me tolerate the marketing silliness behind the name "minicomputer". Mmmmm...miniskirts From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu May 5 14:50:43 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 15:50:43 -0400 Subject: AW: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <01a401d1a6ff$c13125f0$439371d0$@t-online.de> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <01a401d1a6ff$c13125f0$439371d0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: On 2016-05-05 2:55 PM, Gottfried Specht wrote: > Thanks, Erik. > > How do I remember this ca. 40 years later? > > Well, while servicing these systems they would frequently stop with a "Memory Protect Error" (various Operating Systems). > > Guess what the intuitive action was: Replace the "Memory Protect Board" - which n e v e r fixed the problem. > > So digging into the technology it became clear, that the Memory Protect Board in these cases had only fulfilled its duty: protect the memory below the fence register from some other piece of hardware (usually a processor or DMA-board) running havoc in memory. That learning stuck ... Well, at least the directive wasn't "remove the Memory Protect board"? :-) --Toby > > Kind regards, > Gottfried > _____ > Gottfried Specht | Gottfried at specht-online.com | +49 211 151695?+49 151 2911 2915 > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik Baigar > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. Mai 2016 10:36 > An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Betreff: Re: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? > > > > On Wed, 4 May 2016, Gottfried Specht wrote: > >> I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A >> (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that > ... From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu May 5 14:56:17 2016 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 19:56:17 +0000 Subject: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Are there any archived issues of _Processor_ from the 80's or early 90's, online anywhere? I seem to recall it went through at least one major printing format change (from newsprint to cheap bound magazine or the other way around). It sometimes had articles but was mostly ads from second-hand minicomputer vendors. Most of what I remember was DEC-aftermarket of course, but there was also overlap with DG, IBM aftermarket, various office machines, and later PC-clones and Sun stuff. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 5 16:01:31 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 15:01:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Paranoia (was Re: TEMPEST protection (was Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx)) In-Reply-To: References: <20160505131753.5BA9418C131@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Erik Baigar wrote: > One does not really want to know what is possible (and done) today - > where there is no need to dig tunnels any more ;-) I don't really want to know because it'd probably be dangerous to know such things. So, I heartily agree. What I figure is that "they" (the NSA, CIA, gubment, whatever) have probably all the capabilities that were hinted at in the Snowden files, plus a few that were beyond his sight. However, it's a fairly squishy bunch of speculation at this point. The great thing is that I'm so dull nowadays, anyone who spies on me will simply be bored to death. So, that's my secret defense. My paranoia is really for the *future*: * Phones have already been used as wireless listening devices, so have "smart" televisions. I assume this will be new normal. Devices will start not only listening, but doing speech-to-text conversion and reacting to certain phrases etc.. If you can blackmail people by encrypting their data, then they will soon do it with audio clips of folks saying potentially embarrassing things. (ie.. you ring buffer the audio so if your T2S engine detects something potentially juicy, you save the preceding 2-3 minutes of audio.) * Too many devices come with cameras (phones come to mind first, but tablets etc..). These cameras supposedly have software controls but methinks those are oft easily bypassed. If one was to create an algorithm to detect a naked person (probably already patented), then next we'll get blackmailed with naked pictures because we left the phone in bathroom while taking a shower, et al. * I remember back in the day when folks would worry about tty security and how various secure applications would handle input and output buffering from the keyboard. Now, that type of thing is soooo far beneath abstraction layers galore I'd despair of _ever_ securing it. Complexity is the enemy of security. * GPS and "location based services" are already a big juicy target, but imagine what you could do with a little AI. Imagine some group like the East German Stazi with that kind of power. "Ah, vee see that you left a political rally and went to a hardware store. You were buying materials for weapons weren't you? Admit it. Why cannot you sign the papers old man? " Then there is the potential for catching cheating spouses. I'd posit this can be done (somewhat in some cases) via algorithms on your phone. Imagine what people would pay then... -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 5 16:04:00 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 15:04:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Are there any archived issues of _Processor_ from the 80's or early > 90's, online anywhere? That sounds really interesting. If you find a source, I hope you will share. -Swift From scaron at diablonet.net Thu May 5 16:06:39 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 17:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 5 May 2016, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Are there any archived issues of _Processor_ from the 80's or early >> 90's, online anywhere? > > That sounds really interesting. If you find a source, I hope you will > share. > > -Swift > Ah, I got my start in the industry working at a repair shop and I remember that we got Processor. It indeed contained plenty of interesting ads from vendors of secondhand mini and midrange equipment. I'm not aware of any copies that have been preserved ... I kind of miss thumbing through it, like Computer Shopper -- remember that behemoth? :O Best, Sean From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 5 16:19:51 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 15:19:51 -0600 (MDT) Subject: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > I kind of miss thumbing through it, like Computer Shopper -- remember > that behemoth? :O I used to trek to the public library in a little town of 800 folks. The library was about the size of my living room. However, they got Byte and Computer Shopper. I remember one of the librarian ladies who volunteered there coming up to me once and asking "How can you sit and look at these magazines for so long?" That was the same place where I'd go transcribe BASIC programs out of magazines and books to see if I could figure out if there was any way on $diety's green earth we they'd run on my pathetic Timex Sinclair (but hey, I had the 16k RAM pack!) Then I'd go home, find out the code wouldn't run, then peek/poke my way to fixing it. I think I still have a bowling game I "ported". The good side of that now-seemingly-pathetic situation with books and magazines communicating the critical bits to learn was this: 1. It was easier to concentrate. There wasn't always a web browser or game client beckoning me away to fun-distracted-time-wasting-land. 2. Magazines made a nice self-contained little package ("issues") so they are great sources for nostalgia. They are almost little time capsules. The nearly immutable nature of the format gives an interesting perspective. 3. I explain print media to my (much) younger brothers like this: Imagine a screen that is super-super-cheap, doesn't ever run low on power, has a _killer_ refresh rate (none, it's static), is so thin and light you can carry thousands of them at once, has almost unlimited resolution, and has a shelf-life probably 2x-3x that of the electronic devices they describe. Ie.. the "physicality" of print is worth something to me. 4. Plus, close to 100% of the content is usually somewhat vetted (well maybe not the adverts as much). It's not (usually) just some 13 year old punk spouting off on reddit etc.. -Swift From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu May 5 20:47:01 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 21:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > HP-HIL uses what *should* be a pretty basic serial protocol with available d$ I haven't, but my own tendency would be to build a UART from a clock generator (divided down) and some shift registers for the hardware side of it, then add some logic for the host interface - I might use a 115200 serial port or I might use a parallel port, I'm not sure. I would not mess with things like Arduinos. I would prefer a bunch of TTL for multiple reasons: (1) because I already have it; (2) because I understand it better and thus can build and repair it better; (3) it is likely to be better in a bunch of respects - faster, lower power, maybe even cheaper, etc. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu May 5 21:25:53 2016 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 04:25:53 +0200 Subject: Crippled connectivity [was Re: FidoNet ....show] In-Reply-To: <201605050121.VAA03917@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54f643.4ea31226.44570b05@aol.com> <20160503233059.GA30644@tau1.ceti.pl> <20160504214740.GA4612@tau1.ceti.pl> <201605050121.VAA03917@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160506022553.GA5812@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 09:21:18PM -0400, Mouse wrote: [...] > Sure you can tunnel; you just have to initiate the tunnel connection > from the inside. I too have a host (at work) that's behind double NAT; [...] > > Of course, this needs a friendly host on the outside. In my case, I > find that cost well worth paying.... Sure, with a friendly frontend one can do plenty. I am actually doing such tunnel on a daily basis, just am not charming enough to have custom built server demon installed in my name :-) (and no port forwarding either). But I think there is no particular need for me to perform such sophisticated tricks, like maybe editing ssh to concoct a demon forwarding traffic to-fro my home server. It is of course fine thing to do, but also time consuming a bit. And I think in maybe not very long time IPv6 will be very hard to ignore by ISPs like mine. Right now, they are selling from their IPv4 pool, while they can. Later, either they will switch to giving real IPv6 addresses by default, or maybe someone else will. In the meantime, I may have fun with other stuff. There is more than I can play with. Just one I try to find time for: PDP8 assembler - I know it is so small it could probably become my first memorized assembler ever, including octal patterns, and yet I have other things to do that are a bit more important. Why would I fight a problem that is doomed to go away if I wait just a little bit more? Just thinking out loud. But thanks for suggestions, always welcomed. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From lyndon at orthanc.ca Thu May 5 21:40:09 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 19:40:09 -0700 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> On 2016-05-05 6:47 PM, Mouse wrote: > faster, lower power, maybe > even cheaper, etc. TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) From earl at retrobits.com Thu May 5 16:35:07 2016 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 14:35:07 -0700 Subject: Release Notes for version 6.5 of TSX-Plus... In-Reply-To: <20160504114548.6789d2aa@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20160504114548.6789d2aa@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I just received from S&H a PDF copy of the TSX 6.50 Release Notes - and > Jay has posted it to the http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org website. > > Lots of interesting/helpful information for all you TSX-Plus buffs... > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > > ?Lyle, so many thanks to both you and Jay for this effort on TSX Plus. Cheers! - Earl ? From wsudol at freedom.com Thu May 5 16:35:20 2016 From: wsudol at freedom.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 21:35:20 +0000 Subject: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BDF8EDA3F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> , Message-ID: Try Here. They have copies going back to @ 2004 https://archive.org/details/processor_newspaper -- Wayne Sudol Riverside Press-Enterprise A Digital First Media Newspaper 1-951-368-9945 ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Swift Griggs Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 2:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: _Processor_ magazine/newsprint? On Thu, 5 May 2016, Sean Caron wrote: > I kind of miss thumbing through it, like Computer Shopper -- remember > that behemoth? :O I used to trek to the public library in a little town of 800 folks. The library was about the size of my living room. However, they got Byte and Computer Shopper. I remember one of the librarian ladies who volunteered there coming up to me once and asking "How can you sit and look at these magazines for so long?" That was the same place where I'd go transcribe BASIC programs out of magazines and books to see if I could figure out if there was any way on $diety's green earth we they'd run on my pathetic Timex Sinclair (but hey, I had the 16k RAM pack!) Then I'd go home, find out the code wouldn't run, then peek/poke my way to fixing it. I think I still have a bowling game I "ported". The good side of that now-seemingly-pathetic situation with books and magazines communicating the critical bits to learn was this: 1. It was easier to concentrate. There wasn't always a web browser or game client beckoning me away to fun-distracted-time-wasting-land. 2. Magazines made a nice self-contained little package ("issues") so they are great sources for nostalgia. They are almost little time capsules. The nearly immutable nature of the format gives an interesting perspective. 3. I explain print media to my (much) younger brothers like this: Imagine a screen that is super-super-cheap, doesn't ever run low on power, has a _killer_ refresh rate (none, it's static), is so thin and light you can carry thousands of them at once, has almost unlimited resolution, and has a shelf-life probably 2x-3x that of the electronic devices they describe. Ie.. the "physicality" of print is worth something to me. 4. Plus, close to 100% of the content is usually somewhat vetted (well maybe not the adverts as much). It's not (usually) just some 13 year old punk spouting off on reddit etc.. -Swift From tsw-cc at johana.com Thu May 5 21:40:27 2016 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 02:40:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1355175801.159417.1462502427540.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Request for information about a Facit 4070. Yes, it can be hooked up to a parallel port interface. It takes a single 74LS00 chip to generate the proper signals, and the ACK signals. I did it in a simple jumper wire block (it has a male and female connector along with a jumper field. At the moment I have lost my documentation, but I have a working unit ready to be dissected to produce the proper diagram (it may take a while). I have connected it to a "real" and a USB parallel port and used direct writes to the parallel port device under Linux with no modification. Also if you are interested, I have a program that sends out block letters to be punched on the tape (along with leader). The letters are 5x7 and the 8th is the descender for lower case letters. The various docs for the 4070 are on Bitsavers, and you want to be sure that the "option" board just has jumpers on it (as it comes from the factory). From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu May 5 22:17:39 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 23:17:39 -0400 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface References: <1355175801.159417.1462502427540.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <80C6A78FB19849E4A81366DF1B4A3B9C@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Watson" To: Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 10:40 PM Subject: Re: Facit 4070 to PC interface > Request for information about a Facit 4070. ... > Also if you are interested, I have a program that sends out block letters to be punched on the tape (along with leader). The letters are 5x7 and the 8th is the descender for lower case letters. --------------- Hi Tom, My perfs aren't Facits but I'd be interested in looking at your program all the same; what's it run on/written in? TIA, mike From mattislind at gmail.com Fri May 6 02:19:15 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 09:19:15 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: Has anyone dumped the microcode of the PDP-11/05? I am looking into a CPU board pair that are not behaving that well. The only switch that does anything is the START switch. The rest is doing nothing. The CPU clock is stopped. When tracing the microprogram flow it looks very suspicious. Comparing the same sequence with a better working pair reveal a few differences. All these can be narrowed down to one single PROM chip. It doesn't look like it is something else that is wire-ored onto the micor address bus since the enable signals for all those are inactive. And one signal is already low so wire-ORing would not change it. I would need a dump of the chips or at least A04A2 / E102 on the Control board. There are microcode listings in the manual but they need to be treated to get into a dump. So if someone already have a dump that would be highly appreciated. /Mattis From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri May 6 03:39:22 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 04:39:22 -0400 Subject: The Radio Boys and Girls: Radio, Telegraph, Telephone and Wireless Adventures f Message-ID: <203e6c.7f6d94e2.445db23a@aol.com> Before there were books of kids doing thins with computers there was: The Radio Boys and Girls: Radio, Telegraph, Telephone and Wireless Adventures for Juvenile Readers, 1890-1945 - A View Though Literature By Mike Adams A Review By Ed Sharpe Director and Lead Archivist for Southwest Museum of Engineering Communications and Computation Glendale Daily Planet / KKAT-IPTV Read At http://glendaledailyplanet.com/the-radio-boys-and-girls-radio-telegraph-tele phone-and-wireless-adventu-p570-154.htm From anders at abc80.net Fri May 6 02:47:47 2016 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 09:47:47 +0200 Subject: AJRLADO diskless controller test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I tried to run the diskless controller test on my PDP8/A. It fails before any tests has been executed. I suspect that my RL8A controller is broken. The CPU tests and the memory tests works fine. The test stopped @ address 5713 (display shows 5714), MD buff = 7402, AC = 0 Does anybody have the source code to this test? Earlier someone got the test instructions photographed from microfishie. The complete story is that the machine worked just fine, booted OS/8. Then I changed the CPU from KK8A -> KK8E. The KK8E had some problems, but works fine now. But now the machine doesn't boot OS/8 with any of the CPU's. The diskless controller test stops at the same location with any CPU. /Anders From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 6 08:26:41 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 09:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > Has anyone dumped the microcode of the PDP-11/05? > ... > When tracing the microprogram flow it looks very suspicious. Comparing > the same sequence with a better working pair reveal a few differences. > All these can be narrowed down to one single PROM chip. Josh had an 11/05 that had a uROM fail, and he had to blow a new one (IIRC he sent in a report, it's in the list archive). I'm not sure if it's the same one as the one you need, but if his post doesn't give the chip ID, no doubt he can let us know. > There are microcode listings in the manual but they need to be treated > to get into a dump. Which is exactly what Josh did. Speaking of which, is there any chance we can get those machine-readable listings online? I can host them with my other DEC material, and I can also put them in the Computer History wiki. Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri May 6 08:39:11 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 09:39:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <201605061339.JAA23004@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> faster, lower power, maybe even cheaper, etc. > TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) If there's little enough of it it can! (Not strictly TTL, but much the same technology - I once built a timer with a 555 and some discretes and cut the power draw by about an order of magnitude as compared to a small CPU - Arduino or the like - doing the same job.) Would it be lower power in this case? I don't know; I haven't built, nor even designed in detail, either version of the circuit. And, come to think of it, while not strictly TTL, there are TTL-compatible CMOS families, like 74HCT and 74ALS, that almost certainly would be lower-power. While they aren't classic tech, the question asked about using modern tech to interface to classic HP-HIL, so they may be admissible here. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri May 6 08:50:39 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 15:50:39 +0200 Subject: Pics of a FASTRAND and other fun things. Message-ID: <20160506135038.GB12489@Update.UU.SE> Hi I follow a facebook group of Swedes mainly interrested in micros of the 80:ies. While that is fun in it's own right I recently decided to ask what "heavy iron", if any, the members might possess. I was pleasantly surprised of what surfaced. I though that some of you might also enjoy this, so here is the pick of the litter (reproduced with permission). A GE/PAC 4060 Drum memory, from person A: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/ge_pac_4060_drum_1.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/ge_pac_4060_drum_2.jpg Univac artefacts, from person B: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/FASTRAND_III.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/FASTRAND_III_2.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/FASTRAND_III_3.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/1701_memory.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/saab_univac_poster.jpg The following is the teletype that I believe must come from a UNIVAC 418 or 1106 console desk. It looks like a model 28. Can anyone confirm? http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/teletypeXX.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/418-II.jpg DIAB racks from person C, probably only interesting for Swedish unix buffs. DIAB machines are somewhat uncommon and the rack versions even more so. http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/diab_racks.jpg Have a nice weekend, Pontus. From erik at baigar.de Fri May 6 08:45:55 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 15:45:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: AW: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <01a401d1a6ff$c13125f0$439371d0$@t-online.de> References: <007f01d1a620$a9bb3e40$fd31bac0$@t-online.de> <01a401d1a6ff$c13125f0$439371d0$@t-online.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2016, Gottfried Specht wrote: > How do I remember this ca. 40 years later? [snip] > Well, while servicing these systems they would frequently stop with a > "Memory Protect Error" (various Operating Systems). Guess what the > intuitive action was: Replace the "Memory Protect Board" - which n e v e > r fixed the problem. So digging into the technology it became clear, > that the Memory Protect Board in these cases had only fulfilled its > duty: protect the memory below the fence register from some other piece > of hardware (usually a processor or DMA-board) running havoc in memory. Essentially the board did what it was supposed to do! That is exactly what the APM is good for in my Rolm 1602: As these machines where used in applcations where errors in hardware or software running havoc would have resulted in really severe problems these where a good idea ;-) Have a nice weekend, Erik. > On Wed, 4 May 2016, Gottfried Specht wrote: > >> I'm not sure whether it qualifies for your full list, but the HP2100A >> (that came out in 1971) had a "Memory Protect" hardware that > > Hi Gottfried, > > thanks for the excellent answer - yes I think this is exactly what matches my specification! Thanks. > It is really astonishing how many people know a lot on various machines which is really great. I suspected that HP had something, too. > >> Fence Register: Set under program control; memory below fence is protected. > > This is a clever and somewhat outstanding feature - most others use protection on basis of blocks ar abuse the virtual memory for the purpose ;-) > > Best regards, > > Erik. > >> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Erik >> Baigar >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Mai 2016 17:53 >> An: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Betreff: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? >> >> >> Dear Experts, >> >> during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question: >> What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered >> memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as: >> >> - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode) >> - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4) >> - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be >> set up individually. >> - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code. >> - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the >> memory and IO ranges must exist. >> >> I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising the IO- and memory accesses. >> >> My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g. >> for safety critical applications... >> >> Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602. >> >> Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era having someting similar? >> >> Erik. >> > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri May 6 09:29:08 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 16:29:08 +0200 Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 May 2016 at 10:41, Mattis Lind wrote: > What about the Norsk Data series of machines, NORD-1, NORD-10 etc. > > The NORD-10 had memory protection and paging. Circa 1973. According to the > wiki page the NORD-1 had an option to provide virtual memory. The wiki page > claim the NORD-1 to be the first mini to have virtual memory (1969). I > cannot really tell if this is true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord-1 > > /Mattis The NORD-1 (developed 1967, sold from 1968) was a real-time 16-bit minicomputer with up to 64kw of core memory. The NORD-1 reference manual describes the memory protection system this way: "Both real-time and background programs can be run concurrently in a NORD-1 system since the real-time program can be protected against alteration. The optional features guarantees that protected areas of memory cannot be written into. The protection feature also prevents the execution of instructions that could initiate I/O transfers or change the status of the protection system." I believe this refers to, or is related to the optional virtual memory system. And more so this passage: "The NORD-1 dynamic core allocation system (paging system) is an automatic address interpretation system which allows programs to be written for 64K virtual core, with only parts of the program in physical core at a given time[..] The page table is kept in core. For each memory reference there is an automatic hardware address translation via an automatic page table reference.[..]" And it goes on to describing page fault interrupts, and privileged instructions. But although it had privileged and non-privileged instructions from the beginning, the NORD-1 did not acquire a time-sharing operating system until after mid-1971, and that was only a proof-of-concept version. It was announced in 1972 and became a product in 1973. The user- and superuser separation was implemented using the already existing instruction type separation, as mentioned. In 1973 the NORD-10 appeared as well, which fully covers the OP's requirements. The NORD-1 of 1968, or NORD-1 with VM of 1969 only partly covers it, as the time sharing operating system was not yet in place at that time. From erik at baigar.de Fri May 6 09:59:12 2016 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 16:59:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 May 2016, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 5 May 2016 at 10:41, Mattis Lind wrote: [snip] > minicomputer with up to 64kw of core memory. The NORD-1 reference [snip] > alteration. The optional features guarantees that protected areas of > memory cannot be written into. The protection feature also prevents > the execution of instructions that could initiate I/O transfers or > change the status of the protection system." OK, this machine also matches the requirements of my initial question - great. So there quite some machine offering such features well before 1975... Thanks for citing from the reference manual! Erik. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri May 6 10:16:49 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 11:16:49 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > I would need a dump of the chips or at least A04A2 / E102 on the Control board. Can you clarify? Is this a typo? Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 6 10:46:54 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 06 May 2016 10:46:54 -0500 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> On 05/05/2016 09:40 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > On 2016-05-05 6:47 PM, Mouse wrote: >> faster, lower power, maybe >> even cheaper, etc. > > TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) > Hmmm, I don't know. (Don't remember the earlier part of discussion.) Some discrete transistor implementations were actually pretty high power, they ran off 12 V rails or even more. I know some old computer I poked into (SEL 12-bit, maybe) must have been using 24 V rails, they had 2 W load resistors on the transistor collectors, and the boards were badly burned around those resistors! Some systems use a variant of ECL, which of course really burned power, too. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 6 10:50:59 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 06 May 2016 10:50:59 -0500 Subject: Pics of a FASTRAND and other fun things. In-Reply-To: <20160506135038.GB12489@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160506135038.GB12489@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <572CBD63.2040004@pico-systems.com> On 05/06/2016 08:50 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > The following is the teletype that I believe must come from a UNIVAC 418 > or 1106 console desk. It looks like a model 28. Can anyone confirm? > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/teletypeXX.jpg > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/418-II.jpg > > The printer frame in the back looks VERY much like a Teletype model 19. The keyboard in front is reminiscent of a model 15/19 keyboard, but has 4 rows, so it can't be from a 5-bit teletype. Jon From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Fri May 6 10:55:50 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:55:50 -0500 Subject: Pics of a FASTRAND and other fun things. In-Reply-To: <572CBD63.2040004@pico-systems.com> References: <20160506135038.GB12489@Update.UU.SE> <572CBD63.2040004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/06/2016 08:50 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> The following is the teletype that I believe must come from a UNIVAC 418 >> or 1106 console desk. It looks like a model 28. Can anyone confirm? >> >> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/teletypeXX.jpg >> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/418-II.jpg >> >> >> The printer frame in the back looks VERY much like a Teletype model 19. > The keyboard in front is reminiscent of a model 15/19 keyboard, but has 4 > rows, so it can't be from a 5-bit teletype. > > Jon > I believe that's a model 35 (8-level version of the 28). -C From derschjo at gmail.com Fri May 6 11:09:07 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 09:09:07 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <572CC1A3.1070909@gmail.com> On 5/6/16 6:26 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Mattis Lind > > > Has anyone dumped the microcode of the PDP-11/05? > > ... > > When tracing the microprogram flow it looks very suspicious. Comparing > > the same sequence with a better working pair reveal a few differences. > > All these can be narrowed down to one single PROM chip. > > Josh had an 11/05 that had a uROM fail, and he had to blow a new one (IIRC he > sent in a report, it's in the list archive). I'm not sure if it's the same one > as the one you need, but if his post doesn't give the chip ID, no doubt he can > let us know. I had two uCode ROMs fail, it was just that fun. Unfortunately they were at E114 and E102 (A11A2 and A20A2), not E103 so my transcriptions aren't going to help. I've put them up at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/pdp1105/ucode if anyone happens to need them, this includes the raw binary as well as the transcription I did. I had my wife double-check my work (she's very patient with me) and the PROMs seem to work fine (all diags pass) so I'm pretty sure they're correct. Note that the order of the data in the A11A2 PROM is reversed from the engineering drawing transcription; the address lines to that PROM are active low (discovered this the hard way.) - Josh > > > There are microcode listings in the manual but they need to be treated > > to get into a dump. > > Which is exactly what Josh did. > > Speaking of which, is there any chance we can get those machine-readable > listings online? I can host them with my other DEC material, and I can also > put them in the Computer History wiki. > > Noel > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 6 11:44:37 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:44:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can Message-ID: If you care, you might want to check out: ftp://ftp.hp.com:/pub/alphaserver/firmware I'm always updating firmware on older alphas and I've noticed this site has undergone some changes lately. I've also noticed that HP's web sites have been absolutely trashed for a couple of years now. However, now many alpha related searches return 0 results on most of their portals. When you do find something, it's often a dead link. Many of the Tru64 pages are all a broken link, broken CSS, shambles. Anyhow, my trust in HP is at an all-time-low (more than I even knew was possible after I got my whopping $26 dollar settlement for them ripping folks off on ink cartridges and getting class-action-sued for it). Unsurprisingly, they can't even run a website anymore, and even the FTP site seems to be feeling the shake up (directories moving around, things obviously undergoing some major changes). So, you might want to grab whatever you need off the post-Fiorina walking corpse of HP before they go full zombie and eat their own brains and lose everything. There are patches, firmware etc... many things their management would probably remove if they were literate enough to know they still had them online in an undamaged form (folks so often forget about FTP). -Swift From jason at textfiles.com Fri May 6 11:50:40 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 12:50:40 -0400 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For general noting, we did a drop-dead backup of FTP.HP.COM in 2013 as part of a recognition that FTP sites were mostly being set adrift and were often unique sources of material. https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_ftp1 (2013 Backup) https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_pub-2013-10 (Alternate Backup) On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > If you care, you might want to check out: > ftp://ftp.hp.com:/pub/alphaserver/firmware > > I'm always updating firmware on older alphas and I've noticed this site > has undergone some changes lately. I've also noticed that HP's web sites > have been absolutely trashed for a couple of years now. However, now many > alpha related searches return 0 results on most of their portals. When you > do find something, it's often a dead link. Many of the Tru64 pages are all > a broken link, broken CSS, shambles. > > Anyhow, my trust in HP is at an all-time-low (more than I even knew was > possible after I got my whopping $26 dollar settlement for them ripping > folks off on ink cartridges and getting class-action-sued for it). > Unsurprisingly, they can't even run a website anymore, and even the FTP > site seems to be feeling the shake up (directories moving around, things > obviously undergoing some major changes). So, you might want to grab > whatever you need off the post-Fiorina walking corpse of HP before they go > full zombie and eat their own brains and lose everything. There are > patches, firmware etc... many things their management would probably > remove if they were literate enough to know they still had them online in > an undamaged form (folks so often forget about FTP). > > -Swift > From mattislind at gmail.com Fri May 6 12:03:44 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 19:03:44 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: fredag 6 maj 2016 skrev william degnan : > > I would need a dump of the chips or at least A04A2 / E102 on the Control > board. > > Can you clarify? Is this a typo? > > No, it is not a typo. Why do you think it is typo? http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/1105_RevAH_Engineering_Drawings_Jul76.pdf Page 91. M7261. E102 / A04A2. When comparing my chip, which I removed and dumped, it is very different from the listing. Maybe half the chip differs. The problems in the microcode flow definetely matches the contents of the dump. I am getting a little worried that there are different versions of the microcode. Anyone knows of different versions? /Mattis Bill > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 6 12:11:32 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >> TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) than vacuum tubes ("valves")? From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 6 12:13:38 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 11:13:38 -0600 (MDT) Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 May 2016, Jason Scott wrote: > For general noting, we did a drop-dead backup of FTP.HP.COM in 2013 as > part of a recognition that FTP sites were mostly being set adrift and > were often unique sources of material. Right on! Thanks for that. > https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_ftp1 (2013 Backup) > https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_pub-2013-10 (Alternate Backup) Killer. You guys have some great stuff there (looking at all the other sites)! I know there are some out there (siliconbunny comes to mind) but did you folks happen to mirror reality.sgi.com by chance? -Swift From mattislind at gmail.com Fri May 6 12:16:24 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 19:16:24 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <572CC1A3.1070909@gmail.com> References: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <572CC1A3.1070909@gmail.com> Message-ID: fredag 6 maj 2016 skrev Josh Dersch : > On 5/6/16 6:26 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> > From: Mattis Lind >> >> > Has anyone dumped the microcode of the PDP-11/05? >> > ... >> > When tracing the microprogram flow it looks very suspicious. >> Comparing >> > the same sequence with a better working pair reveal a few >> differences. >> > All these can be narrowed down to one single PROM chip. >> >> Josh had an 11/05 that had a uROM fail, and he had to blow a new one >> (IIRC he >> sent in a report, it's in the list archive). I'm not sure if it's the >> same one >> as the one you need, but if his post doesn't give the chip ID, no doubt >> he can >> let us know. >> > I had two uCode ROMs fail, it was just that fun. Unfortunately they were > at E114 and E102 (A11A2 and A20A2), not E103 so my transcriptions aren't > going to help. Now this is confusing. Maybe this related to why Bill thought I made a typo. In the schematic I have which is the same as the one at bitsavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/1105_RevAH_Engineering_Drawings_Jul76.pdf E102 / A04A2, E112 / A10A2, E103 / A20A2 and E114 / A11A2. Are there plenty of different versions of PCB and microcode?? > > /Mattis From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 6 12:18:48 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 13:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160506171848.87F4518C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan >> I would need a dump of .. at least A04A2 / E102 on the Control board. > Can you clarify? Is this a typo? No, there are two different major versions of the M7261 Control board; see http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#CPU_board_versions A04A2 is inded E102 on the later major version of the board; on the earlier version (prints for that version are in the GT40 prints online, pg. 162 and on) A04A2 is E92. Speaking of the two major versions, though, I wonder if the ucode in the two versions is identical? The uROM chip numbers should give it, (if they are the same on both versions, albeit in different locations on the board), but I have yet to check. Does anyone happen to know? Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri May 6 12:26:21 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 13:26:21 -0400 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> > On May 6, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) > > than vacuum tubes ("valves")? I think a well chosen hearing aid tube can outperform a classic (not L or LS) 7400 series IC. paul From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 6 12:31:35 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:31:35 -0700 Subject: Pics of a FASTRAND and other fun things. In-Reply-To: <572CBD63.2040004@pico-systems.com> References: <20160506135038.GB12489@Update.UU.SE> <572CBD63.2040004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <2E26ED6C-9203-452D-8B3C-15B68CE830D4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-06, at 8:50 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/06/2016 08:50 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> The following is the teletype that I believe must come from a UNIVAC 418 >> or 1106 console desk. It looks like a model 28. Can anyone confirm? >> >> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/teletypeXX.jpg >> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/fb_comphist/418-II.jpg >> >> > The printer frame in the back looks VERY much like a Teletype model 19. The keyboard in front is reminiscent of a model 15/19 keyboard, but has 4 rows, so it can't be from a 5-bit teletype. The model 19 (also 15) printer is a type-basket design (akin to a typewriter). The pictured unit uses a type-box printhead like that of the model 28, but given the 4-row keyboard and the application, Cory likely has it right as a model 35 printer. I think you'd have to see the decoding mechanics on the right side of the printer to confirm 35 vs. 28. From mattislind at gmail.com Fri May 6 13:18:14 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 20:18:14 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160506171848.87F4518C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160506171848.87F4518C11D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: fredag 6 maj 2016 skrev Noel Chiappa : > > From: William Degnan > > >> I would need a dump of .. at least A04A2 / E102 on the Control > board. > > > Can you clarify? Is this a typo? > > No, there are two different major versions of the M7261 Control board; see > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#CPU_board_versions > > A04A2 is inded E102 on the later major version of the board; on the earlier > version (prints for that version are in the GT40 prints online, pg. 162 and > on) A04A2 is E92. > > Thanks Noel for sorting this out. I started to get confused. The etch revision is 'F' on my boards. > Speaking of the two major versions, though, I wonder if the ucode in the > two > versions is identical? The uROM chip numbers should give it, (if they are > the > same on both versions, albeit in different locations on the board), but I > have > yet to check. Does anyone happen to know? > > Noel > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 6 13:44:12 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 11:44:12 -0700 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/16 9:44 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > If you care, you might want to check out: > ftp://ftp.hp.com:/pub/alphaserver/firmware > Either I missed it when I wget'ed it a year or two ago, but I was looking for Compaq Portable 486 softpaqs recently, slurped all of them from ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/ last week, and it ended up being almost 2tb with a lot more earlier ones available now than the last time I tried it From rollerton at gmail.com Fri May 6 12:48:29 2016 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:48:29 -0700 Subject: Memory and I/O protection on the 940 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've always wanted to know more about the SDS 940 project since its a relative to my SDS Sigma 9. If you know of any of the papers on the hardware, and OS they created I'd appreciate some pointers to where I could read them. Thanks! On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > Al mentioned the 940 so I thought I would fill in the details: > > Lichtenberger and Pirtle extended the hardware to include a page map: 14 > bits of VA was divided into 3 bits of page # and 11 bits of offset. The 8 > pages were held in 2 x 24 bit words divided into a 8 x 6 bit page numbers. > The high order bit of the mapped page number served as the Read Only bit. > This meant that "subsystems" (a.k.a. applications) could be shared between > users. > > Additionally, the instruction set was protected against users with specific > prohibition against using the I/O instructions. > > This was described in FJCC 1965 with modifications done in 1964. > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 6 13:47:50 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 11:47:50 -0700 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> References: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/16 11:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Either I missed it when I wget'ed it a year or two ago, but I was looking for > Compaq Portable 486 softpaqs recently, slurped all of them from ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/ > last week, and it ended up being almost 2tb with a lot more earlier ones available now > than the last time I tried it > And if anyone cares, you can't create floppy images from the really old softpaqs on modern PCs. I ended up having to shuttle an IDE disk to the Portable 486 and run the image copy program on there From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 6 14:11:55 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 12:11:55 -0700 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <572CEC7B.3030502@sydex.com> On 05/06/2016 09:50 AM, Jason Scott wrote: > For general noting, we did a drop-dead backup of FTP.HP.COM in 2013 > as part of a recognition that FTP sites were mostly being set adrift > and were often unique sources of material. > > https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_ftp1 (2013 Backup) > https://archive.org/details/ftp-ftp.hp.com_pub-2013-10 (Alternate > Backup) Thanks for that--I had an occasion to go searching for a Vectra VL600 BIOS image this past weekend and managed to luck out. But I'm not sanguine that HP will continue to host such old stuff. --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri May 6 15:54:45 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 13:54:45 -0700 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572B80B1.2070700@sydex.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572ADA28.5060807@sydex.com> <572B7D9A.3080801@pico-systems.com> <572B80B1.2070700@sydex.com> Message-ID: <09D5D7C1-1808-456E-8490-4A974FDCE86F@gmail.com> > On May 5, 2016, at 10:19 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and, of course, the tabletop Univac 422. > --Chuck I had to look it up. What a sexy small machine, with its boards showing! http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102633139 From steven at malikoff.com Fri May 6 16:36:10 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 07:36:10 +1000 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506132641.65FB418C11B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <572CC1A3.1070909@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mattis wrote > In the schematic I have which is the same as the one at bitsavers: > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/1105_RevAH_Engineering_Drawings_Jul76.pdf > > E102 / A04A2, E112 / A10A2, E103 / A20A2 and E114 / A11A2. > > Are there plenty of different versions of PCB and microcode?? > >> >> > /Mattis When I recovered the Foxboro Fox 2 and waterlogged 11/05 on my recent road trip, I was lucky to find an original 11/05 print set dated 1973. For what it's worth, the microcode listing in my doc is Revision B and it is *exactly* the same printout as in the the Bitsavers doc Revision C except it is more legible and has fewer splotches and spots on it. The only other difference I can see is the Rev C listing has the 'digital' logo added to the page edges. By the way the above pdf is missing a page that is in my set, namely to do with the 5-1/4" height power supply (H726-B) pictures, as well as some other pages of the chassis, possibly more but I haven't gone through it that closely. Steve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 6 17:32:25 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 18:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > Thanks Noel for sorting this out. Eh, de nada. But thank you. >> I wonder if the ucode in the two versions is identical? The uROM chip >> numbers should give it, (if they are the same on both versions, albeit >> in different locations on the board), but I have yet to check. Does >> anyone happen to know? OK, so the situation here is pretty complicated. To start with / make things worse, that CPU uses lots of PROMs. Lots and lots and lots and lots of PROMs. For the data paths board (M7260), both major versions appear to contain the same PROMs (going by the DEC part numbers), but the chip location (Exx) numbers are all different. For the control board (M7261), the C, E ('early' version) and F ('late' version) etch revisions each contain mostly the same PROMs, but apparently with slight differences between the sets of PROMs in each (as reflected in different DEC part numbers). For details see: http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs to which I have just added all the gory details. As to getting the contents of all of them dumped in machine-readable form - oi vey! >> on the earlier version (prints for that version are in the GT40 prints >> online It turns out that I have hard-copy prints for the "C" etch revision of the M7261, which do not yet appear to be online; the GT40 prints have the "E" etch revision. I will scan the pages for that revision of the board, and put them up 'soon'. (I'm not doing the whole print set, it's about 1" thick, and most of them are for other things anyway, like MM11-L memory, etc.) Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 6 18:40:10 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 00:40:10 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <990899515.640445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> <990899515.64 0445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: <016401d1a7f0$a0f0f2b0$e2d2d810$@ntlworld.com> I have been setting up a MAX232CPE to try to get serial output from the serial diagnostic port. Trouble is I am not sure which signal is the data signal. The one that is marked SROMCDAT in the technical manual does not appear to do anything when I look at it with the scope. Anyone know which is the right signal to monitor? Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 6 18:40:10 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 00:40:10 +0100 Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <990899515.640445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <01PZD8SPOQHW00CLG6@beyondthepale.ie> <003001d19e38$0e88f970$2b9aec50$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> <990899515.64 0445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: <016401d1a7f0$a0f0f2b0$e2d2d810$@ntlworld.com> I have been setting up a MAX232CPE to try to get serial output from the serial diagnostic port. Trouble is I am not sure which signal is the data signal. The one that is marked SROMCDAT in the technical manual does not appear to do anything when I look at it with the scope. Anyone know which is the right signal to monitor? Thanks Rob From macro at linux-mips.org Fri May 6 19:09:31 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 01:09:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem In-Reply-To: <016401d1a7f0$a0f0f2b0$e2d2d810$@ntlworld.com> References: <008d01d148c8$bf872820$3e957860$@ntlworld.com> <00c201d19f43$08f69ce0$1ae3d6a0$@ntlworld.com> <00cd01d19f8b$ce37d0d0$6aa77270$@ntlworld.com> <013c0 1d19ffc$aa8b0e b0$ffa12c10$@ntlworld.com> <014e01d1a005$1356c7b0$3a045710$@ntlworld.com> <20160430165914.C9 5962073C37@huey.classiccmp.org> <000901d1a3db$42727e20$c7577a60$@ntlworld.com> <000401d1a44e$ 2785f5b0$7691e110$@ntlworld.com> <005a01d1a492$52fe6800$f8fb3800$@ntlworld.com> <990899515.64 0445.1462310283477.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <016401d1a7f0$a0f0f2b0$e2d2d810$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have been setting up a MAX232CPE to try to get serial output from the > serial diagnostic port. Trouble is I am not sure which signal is the > data signal. The one that is marked SROMCDAT in the technical manual > does not appear to do anything when I look at it with the scope. Anyone > know which is the right signal to monitor? That pin is the Rx side or data input, so obviously you won't see anything interesting there. The Tx side or data output is on BSROMCLK. I'll send you a document page with conceptual schematics of the host side of the circuit; off the list as attachments are not allowed here I believe no matter how small. Maciej From mattislind at gmail.com Sat May 7 01:45:53 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 08:45:53 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > For the data paths board (M7260), both major versions appear to contain the > same PROMs (going by the DEC part numbers), but the chip location (Exx) > numbers are all different. > > For the control board (M7261), the C, E ('early' version) and F ('late' > version) etch revisions each contain mostly the same PROMs, but apparently > with slight differences between the sets of PROMs in each (as reflected in > different DEC part numbers). For details see: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs Thanks. The change of PROM on etch F also explain the note "Aux control is asserted one micro step earlier..." on page 91 in the schematic on bitsavers. Now I am convinced that if I program a new A04A2 PROM the machine should behave much better. The interesting is when comparing the bad chip with the list that approximately half of the nibbles are OK. Then the rest has mostly one or two changed bits. What are the failure modes of PROMs? BTW. The failing chip was yet another NS chip in plastic /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 6 14:21:59 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 12:21:59 -0700 Subject: Memory and I/O protection on the 940 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ba3f7be-e88d-23b6-d3c2-815fd7d6b424@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/16 10:48 AM, Robert Ollerton wrote: > I've always wanted to know more about the SDS 940 project since its a > relative to my SDS Sigma 9. If you know of any of the papers on the > hardware, and OS they created I'd appreciate some pointers to where I could > read them. Thanks! > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sds/9xx/940 http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tymshare/SDS_940/ and their 'second system' http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bcc/ there is a mostly working simulation in SIMH, but it hasn't been released yet From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri May 6 15:25:02 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 13:25:02 -0700 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: <1355175801.159417.1462502427540.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1355175801.159417.1462502427540.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1D237A67-BC58-405B-91B0-0D522E3C5D68@gmail.com> I have one of these Facit too waiting to be restored. I'd be interested in your program. Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 5, 2016, at 7:40 PM, Tom Watson wrote: > > Request for information about a Facit 4070. > > > Yes, it can be hooked up to a parallel port interface. It takes a single 74LS00 chip to generate the proper signals, and the ACK signals. I did it in a simple jumper wire block (it has a male and female connector along with a jumper field. > > At the moment I have lost my documentation, but I have a working unit ready to be dissected to produce the proper diagram (it may take a while). I have connected it to a "real" and a USB parallel port and used direct writes to the parallel port device under Linux with no modification. > > > Also if you are interested, I have a program that sends out block letters to be punched on the tape (along with leader). The letters are 5x7 and the 8th is the descender for lower case letters. > > The various docs for the 4070 are on Bitsavers, and you want to be sure that the "option" board just has jumpers on it (as it comes from the factory). From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 7 02:36:37 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 08:36:37 +0100 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> References: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <145501d1a833$30ba01b0$922e0510$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 06 May 2016 19:48 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can > > > > On 5/6/16 11:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Either I missed it when I wget'ed it a year or two ago, but I was > > looking for Compaq Portable 486 softpaqs recently, slurped all of them > > from ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/ last week, and it ended up being > > almost 2tb with a lot more earlier ones available now than the last > > time I tried it > > > > And if anyone cares, you can't create floppy images from the really old > softpaqs on modern PCs. I ended up having to shuttle an IDE disk to the > Portable 486 and run the image copy program on there I managed to create Floppies from the IBM OS/2 disk images using DOSBOX. Might be worth a try with these. Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 7 04:48:49 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 10:48:49 +0100 Subject: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK Message-ID: <000001d1a845$a81a9820$f84fc860$@ntlworld.com> This one has a failed BCACHE, but I am told it will still boot and run VMS, albeit slowly. I have not tried this myself, but I have verified that it boots to the console. It is in a BA42B enclosure (i.e. desktop not rackmount). Is there any interest or should I just take out the bits I want from it and then throw it away? It is in Manchester, UK. I do occasionally travel to the East Midlands and to the Reading area though. Not keen on shipping it, but will do so if it means not throwing it away. The machine is free, any shipping would have to be paid for of course. Regards Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat May 7 05:07:34 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 11:07:34 +0100 Subject: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK In-Reply-To: <000001d1a845$a81a9820$f84fc860$@ntlworld.com> References: <000001d1a845$a81a9820$f84fc860$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <22da318c-f767-7f06-6b68-df49c7abc5e5@btinternet.com> Hi Rob How big is it ? I live in the Reading area Rod Smallwood On 07/05/2016 10:48, Robert Jarratt wrote: > This one has a failed BCACHE, but I am told it will still boot and run VMS, > albeit slowly. I have not tried this myself, but I have verified that it > boots to the console. It is in a BA42B enclosure (i.e. desktop not > rackmount). > > > > Is there any interest or should I just take out the bits I want from it and > then throw it away? > > > > It is in Manchester, UK. I do occasionally travel to the East Midlands and > to the Reading area though. Not keen on shipping it, but will do so if it > means not throwing it away. The machine is free, any shipping would have to > be paid for of course. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 7 07:40:01 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 13:40:01 +0100 Subject: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK In-Reply-To: <22da318c-f767-7f06-6b68-df49c7abc5e5@btinternet.com> References: <000001d1a845$a81a9820$f84fc860$@ntlworld.com> <22da318c-f767-7f06-6b68-df49c7abc5e5@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <002501d1a85d$92bb2c20$b8318460$@ntlworld.com> Hello Rod, It is 40x45x14cm in size. I will be in Reading next week (Thames Valley Park) and I could bring it with me. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 07 May 2016 11:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK > > Hi Rob > > How big is it ? I live in the Reading area > > Rod Smallwood > > > > On 07/05/2016 10:48, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > This one has a failed BCACHE, but I am told it will still boot and run > > VMS, albeit slowly. I have not tried this myself, but I have verified > > that it boots to the console. It is in a BA42B enclosure (i.e. desktop > > not rackmount). > > > > > > > > Is there any interest or should I just take out the bits I want from > > it and then throw it away? > > > > > > > > It is in Manchester, UK. I do occasionally travel to the East Midlands > > and to the Reading area though. Not keen on shipping it, but will do > > so if it means not throwing it away. The machine is free, any shipping > > would have to be paid for of course. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat May 7 08:02:02 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 14:02:02 +0100 Subject: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK In-Reply-To: <002501d1a85d$92bb2c20$b8318460$@ntlworld.com> References: <000001d1a845$a81a9820$f84fc860$@ntlworld.com> <22da318c-f767-7f06-6b68-df49c7abc5e5@btinternet.com> <002501d1a85d$92bb2c20$b8318460$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6d072641-0e5b-b3dc-86f1-7031cc3bc54e@btinternet.com> The only day I can't do is Monday. (Hospital Appointment) Thames Valley Park Oracle or Fujitsu? Rod On 07/05/2016 13:40, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Hello Rod, > > It is 40x45x14cm in size. I will be in Reading next week (Thames Valley > Park) and I could bring it with me. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >> Smallwood >> Sent: 07 May 2016 11:08 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Free to a Good Home - VAX 4000-105A in the UK >> >> Hi Rob >> >> How big is it ? I live in the Reading area >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> >> On 07/05/2016 10:48, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>> This one has a failed BCACHE, but I am told it will still boot and run >>> VMS, albeit slowly. I have not tried this myself, but I have verified >>> that it boots to the console. It is in a BA42B enclosure (i.e. desktop >>> not rackmount). >>> >>> >>> >>> Is there any interest or should I just take out the bits I want from >>> it and then throw it away? >>> >>> >>> >>> It is in Manchester, UK. I do occasionally travel to the East Midlands >>> and to the Reading area though. Not keen on shipping it, but will do >>> so if it means not throwing it away. The machine is free, any shipping >>> would have to be paid for of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> >>> >>> Rob >>> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 7 09:50:52 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 10:50:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160507145052.3123318C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > I was lucky to find an original 11/05 print set dated 1973. For what > it's worth, the microcode listing in my doc is Revision B Do note that a lot of the PROMs on those boards aren't actually 'microcode', and aren't covered in that listing. For instance, on the M7261 (control) board, there are 7 which aren't 'microcode' (list drawn from the 11/05 article on the Computer History wiki): A01A2 = E12 = Bus Request -> Grant processing A02A2 = E30 = Internal address decode (first stage) A07A1 = E68 = Internal address decode (second stage) A09A1 = E69 = Internal address decode (second stage) A09A2 = E101 = Branch utest service A13A1 = E90 = Internal interrupt acknowledge A14A1* = E100 = Console switch control and 10 which are: A04A2 = E92 = Next instruction (high bits) A05A2 = E93 = Processor Status Word control A07A2* = E95 = Bus control A10A2 = E103 = Next instruction (low bits) A11A2 = E104 = ALU operation select A12A2 = E105 = Branch utest A13A2 = E106 = Multiplexor control A14A2 = E107 = Bus control A15A2 = E94 = ALU control A16A2 = E96 = Miscellaneous And I haven't included the 11 PROM chips on the M7260 (Data paths) board, none of which are 'microcode'. So those 'microcode' listings only cover about 1/3 of the PROM chips in the CPU; so one can't use just the microcode revision level to tell you what's what. E.g there are two chips different between the C and E etch levels of the M7261: A07A2 and A14A1 (marked with a '*' above); one is 'microcode', one isn't. BTW, when you say that the microcode listings in your 1973 print set are "Revision B", are you referring to the "Microprogram Flow", "Microprogram Symbolic Listing", or "Microprogram Binary Listing", because they can be at different revision levels (given in the box in the extreme lower right corner)? E.g. the ones in the KD11-B prints in the GT40 print set (dated February 1973) are 'B', 'C' and 'C', respectively; the hard-copy set I have (not dated explicitly, but apparently mid-1972, given the modification date on the 'Index' sheet) has 'B', 'B' and 'B'. > it is *exactly* the same printout as in the the Bitsavers doc Revision > C You mean the July 1976 set, the ones with microcode revision levels (as above) of 'C', 'E', and 'E', right? That is M7261 etch revision 'F', which uses quite a few different PROM chips from the earlier ones, so I'd be fairly surprised if the microcode was actually identical. I think you'd have to look at every bit to be sure; the data on which chips changed, here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Control_PROMs would allow anyone who wanted to actually do that to focus in on specific columns of the microprogram to look for differences. (In fact, the 'F' etch rev has one less PROM chip than the 'E' etch rev, but I suspect - i.e. I haven't checked the exact function of each chip on those etch levels - that it's not a micro-program chip, though: there's one less 32x8 PROM chip, and those are generally used for control functions, the microprogram chips are all 256x4.) Noel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat May 7 10:24:57 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 07 May 2016 10:24:57 -0500 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> References: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <572E08C9.7050505@gmail.com> On 05/06/2016 01:47 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > And if anyone cares, you can't create floppy images from the really old softpaqs > on modern PCs. I ended up having to shuttle an IDE disk to the Portable 486 and > run the image copy program on there Yes, I found that too for the early Deskpro stuff. It might be possible to extract real data from the softpaqs without too much trouble, but for the number of times I was expecting to do it, it didn't seem worth the time and I just shunted things across to an old 486 machine and wrote images there. cheers Jules From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 7 11:20:06 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 12:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160507162006.59F7D18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > Now I am convinced that if I program a new A04A2 PROM the machine > should behave much better. Indeed! I have annotated the PROM tables on the Computer History wiki page with the function of each, and that PROM is the high part of the 'next microinstruction' field, so if it's bad, the computer will be acting very strangely indeed! :-) > The failing chip was yet another NS chip in plastic Can you see the type? I'd like to add to the page lists of all the alternate chip types DEC used in place of the Intersil chips specified in the drawings. >> the 'F' etch rev has one less PROM chip than the 'E' etch rev, but I >> suspect .. that it's not a micro-program chip, though My guess was correct; the missing chip is the one I called "Internal interrupt acknowledge"; it was replaced with a 74154 4->16 demux. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 7 12:35:04 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 10:35:04 -0700 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> On 05/06/2016 10:26 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On May 6, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>>> TTL could never claim "lower power" :-) >> >> than vacuum tubes ("valves")? > > I think a well chosen hearing aid tube can outperform a classic (not > L or LS) 7400 series IC. This application sound like a perfect candidate for a CPLD. --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Sat May 7 13:04:10 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 20:04:10 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160507162006.59F7D18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160507162006.59F7D18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > The failing chip was yet another NS chip in plastic > > Can you see the type? I'd like to add to the page lists of all the > alternate > chip types DEC used in place of the Intersil chips specified in the > drawings. > > > I'll check all PROM chips on both board sets tomorrow. > >> the 'F' etch rev has one less PROM chip than the 'E' etch rev, but I > >> suspect .. that it's not a micro-program chip, though > > My guess was correct; the missing chip is the one I called "Internal > interrupt acknowledge"; it was replaced with a 74154 4->16 demux. What about compatibility between different revisions? I.e. Is it possible to mix DataParh board and Control board from different revisions with different microcode? /Mattis > > Noel > From trenchdweller at att.net Sat May 7 13:04:34 2016 From: trenchdweller at att.net (paul popelka) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 18:04:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Is there an authoritative copy of the PDP 11 Field Guide? References: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px #715FFA solid !important; padding-left:1ex !important; background-color:white !important; } I've been using Megan Gentry's copy at http://world.std.com/~mbg/ but that seems to have disappeared recently.There seem to be several other copies available with different update dates. Which copy of this do other people use?Thanks,Paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 7 14:05:54 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 07 May 2016 14:05:54 -0500 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> On 05/07/2016 12:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/06/2016 10:26 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> I think a well chosen hearing aid tube can outperform a classic (not >> L or LS) 7400 series IC. > This application sound like a perfect candidate for a CPLD. > > The Xilinx 9500 series of CPLDs are not low-power, by any means. They have a formula in the data sheet and a power calculator program, that are both WRONG! They underestimate power by a factor of 3!! I reported this to them, and they said I was right, but they were not going to fix the documentation! Sheesh! (The internal architecture is 36-input diode gates with pull-up resistors. You have two choices of resistor, low-power and fast.) The Xilinx CoolRunner II is quite low power, basically a CMOS FPGA architecture. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 7 14:11:06 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 12:11:06 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <34d94ce7-9b2a-e9f7-4d56-16a475abe9ee@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/16 11:45 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > What are the failure modes of PROMs? > early parts with nichrome fuses have a problem with migration where the blown link will grow back. you'll see that in single-bit errors in the part there are tech notes describing this from vendors that went with other technologies for the fuses From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 7 14:14:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 12:14:02 -0700 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: <572E08C9.7050505@gmail.com> References: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> <572E08C9.7050505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3602ce0f-17a0-1c3d-2b8e-6ba60caa936d@bitsavers.org> On 5/7/16 8:24 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > shunted > things across to an old 486 machine and wrote images there. > I had thought about a mass conversion for all the versions of the diagnostics and configuration programs, but then went back to all of the fires/ratholes I'm dealing with. From lists at loomcom.com Sat May 7 14:19:14 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 14:19:14 -0500 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual Message-ID: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> I don't suppose anyone has a copy of the CDC 9429 floppy drive maintenance manual they'd be willing to scan for me? I have reason to believe that the CDC 9428 and 9429 are identical except that the 9429 is jumpered for 80 tracks and the 9428 is jumpered for 40 tracks... but I'm not 100% sure. I do have a copy of the 9428 maintenance manual, thanks to Bitsavers, but having the 9429 manual would put my mind at ease lest I follow the alignment procedures from the 9428 manual and screw something up. -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 7 15:46:17 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 13:46:17 -0700 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <572E5419.80707@sydex.com> On 05/07/2016 12:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > The Xilinx 9500 series of CPLDs are not low-power, by any means. > They have a formula in the data sheet and a power calculator program, > that are both WRONG! They underestimate power by a factor of 3!! I > reported this to them, and they said I was right, but they were not > going to fix the documentation! Sheesh! I don't believe that Xilinx has produced the 9500 series for at least a couple of years. I believe that Atmel still makes some 5V CPLDs (ATF1500 seies). --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 7 16:00:31 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 07 May 2016 16:00:31 -0500 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <572E576F.8030409@pico-systems.com> On 05/07/2016 02:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/07/2016 12:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 05/06/2016 10:26 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> I think a well chosen hearing aid tube can outperform a >>> classic (not >>> L or LS) 7400 series IC. >> This application sound like a perfect candidate for a CPLD. >> >> > The Xilinx 9500 series of CPLDs are not low-power, by any > means. They have a formula in the data sheet and a power > calculator program, that are both WRONG! They > underestimate power by a factor of 3!! I reported this to > them, and they said I was right, but they were not going > to fix the documentation! Sheesh! > > (The internal architecture is 36-input diode gates with > pull-up resistors. You have two choices of resistor, > low-power and fast.) > > The Xilinx CoolRunner II is quite low power, basically a > CMOS FPGA architecture. > > Jon > Oh, but only the 9500 series is a 5V part. The 9500 XL is 5 V tolerant, but needs 3.3 V supply. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 7 16:03:21 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 07 May 2016 16:03:21 -0500 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572E5419.80707@sydex.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> <572E5419.80707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572E5819.5010608@pico-systems.com> On 05/07/2016 03:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/07/2016 12:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> The Xilinx 9500 series of CPLDs are not low-power, by any means. >> They have a formula in the data sheet and a power calculator program, >> that are both WRONG! They underestimate power by a factor of 3!! I >> reported this to them, and they said I was right, but they were not >> going to fix the documentation! Sheesh! > I don't believe that Xilinx has produced the 9500 series for at least a > couple of years. Oh, yes, definitely discontinued. There is stock of either NOS or counterfeit parts available from China. But, if you REALLY need a 5V-powered CPLD, there are only a few choices. > I believe that Atmel still makes some 5V CPLDs (ATF1500 seies). > I wonder for how long those will remain available. The big problem is the foundries are shutting down those 5 V processes. Jon From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat May 7 17:18:51 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 07 May 2016 23:18:51 +0100 Subject: AW: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)? In-Reply-To: <572AD4FE.9030201@sydex.com> References: <218855811.11286.1462418640442.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <572AD4FE.9030201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572E69CB.2040802@ntlworld.com> On 05/05/16 06:07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/04/2016 08:24 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: >> Could someone with access to the OED please check up the first use of >> the term "minicomputer" I strongly suspect it was around the time >> that the PDP11/20 came out or slightly later. The IBM 1130 and 1800 >> were comparable to the /original/ CDC 1700, were similarly launched >> in the mid 60s, but similarly they were not /at that time/ referred >> to as minis. > > Merriam Webster and the OED gives the first published use in 1967 > > http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/1967_words/ The OED cites: 1967. Datamation. Jan 1985/1. The quote is roughly '"an overcoat-pocket-sized" aerospace computer, the 449...' The OED does point out that the usage of the term has shifted over the years. Interestingly (well, interesting to me at least) the earliest OED citation from Datamation is "personal computer" from an advert in 1959 (May-Jun 29). There's an earlier citation for "personal computer" from 1954. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 7 19:28:17 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 17:28:17 -0700 Subject: Interfacing with HP-HIL In-Reply-To: <572E5819.5010608@pico-systems.com> References: <3EFD0E1F-572A-4442-8891-D965C38A9D19@eschatologist.net> <201605060147.VAA25920@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <572C0409.7070502@orthanc.ca> <572CBC6E.5020106@pico-systems.com> <7D89F2CB-B3F5-43FA-91A2-13634AE9DBBC@comcast.net> <572E2748.3040408@sydex.com> <572E3C92.7060404@pico-systems.com> <572E5419.80707@sydex.com> <572E5819.5010608@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <572E8821.9000304@sydex.com> On 05/07/2016 02:03 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > I wonder for how long those will remain available. The big problem > is the foundries are shutting down those 5 V processes. Time marches on--and logic levels sink. I wonder what HTL parts go for now on the spot market. --Chuck From steven at malikoff.com Sat May 7 19:40:56 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 10:40:56 +1000 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: <20160507145052.3123318C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160507145052.3123318C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5ee2b5b75676d955951d19cebf75de1d.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Noel reckoned > BTW, when you say that the microcode listings in your 1973 print set are > "Revision B", are you referring to the "Microprogram Flow", "Microprogram > Symbolic Listing", or "Microprogram Binary Listing", because they can be at > different revision levels (given in the box in the extreme lower right > corner)? That's a good question, my conclusion about being the same was from a cursory glance only, going on the first few page and making a mistaken assumption the rest were the same. Now you mention it, I've spent a little bit more time looking at the print set and I now understand the revision differences as detailed. Microprogram Flow- Mine is Rev B. Pages 6,7,9,10,12,13 are still 27-JUL-72, 5-SEP-72 27-JUL-72, 27-JUL-72, 27-JUL-72,27-JUL-72 respectively. Not sure why they used a DD-MMM-YY date format when the rest of the dates are US format, probably for improved legibility. But, I can see these are noted on the update grid on the first page, anyway, I added the dates for a bit of extra info. Microprogram Symbolic Listing- Mine is Rev D. Pages dated 27-JUL-72, 5-SEP-72, 22-AUG-73, 22--AUG-73, 27-JUL-72. Microprogram Binary Listing- Mine is Rev D. Pages 27-JUL-72, 5-SEP-72, 18-OCT-72, 22-AUG-73, 22-AUG-73, 27-JUL-72. Microprogram Cross Reference Listing- Same lineprinter listing as the pdf, but the odd thing here is that mine has the listing pages numbered properly yet the later pdf listing has them struck out and annotated underneath. > ....so I'd be fairly surprised if the microcode was > actually identical. I think you'd have to look at every bit to be sure; the > data on which chips changed You are right. I made the assumption thet were identical from the first four or so pages being the same lineprinter listing, just re-copied, but did not expect to find the pdf having later dated pages inserted into the listing - who would do that these days (or even back the?) that they would not just run off a whole new listing. I appreciate your detailed comment as I've learned something I didn't know yesterday! Probably no point scanning mine in as it's superseded by the later listings in the pdf. Mine is more legible however. Sometime I'll get my 11/05's running, still working on converting modern rack slides into serviceable ones to fit the H960s. It's coming along but quite slowly, it's a suprising amount of work. Until then my gear is likely to stay piled up on a trolley. Steve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 7 20:36:12 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 21:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160508013612.3DD3B18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > What about compatibility between different revisions? I.e. Is it > possible to mix DataParh board and Control board from different > revisions with different microcode? Well, I don't recall seeing any mention of compatability in the manuals, but that is not definitive either way. I had a look at the two versions of the data path board, and it seems to me that they are basically identical in their interface and function, so that either version would work with any control board version. I looked at the interconnects with i) the other CPU board (on the C-F connectors), and ii) the front console (through the Berg connector), and as far as I can see, both boards use the same interconnects. I didn't track down every last pin, and check them all, but I checked many, many pins, and all the ones I checked were the same. The two versions don't seem that different, internally. The PROMs are the same on the two versions of the data path board, for what that's worth - which is probably not that much. (The PROMs on the data path board don't contain any microcode at all; that's all on the control board.) One major difference is that the register file chips on the older board (which have tri-state outputs, and use that to do a mux) have been replaced by different register file chips, and real mux chips; however, the two versions should work identically. There are differences in the area of the serial line clock, but those should be immaterial. There are some other minor differences, but again, it seems like they should also work identically. So, that's the source of my conclusion that the two versions of the data path card are functionally identical, and can be interchanged. Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Sun May 8 00:17:50 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 23:17:50 -0600 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > I have reason to believe that the CDC 9428 and 9429 are identical > except that the 9429 is jumpered for 80 tracks and the 9428 is > jumpered for 40 tracks... but I'm not 100% sure. They would have to have different heads, if the 40 track model was standards-compliant and industry-compatible. A head suitable for 80-track use doesn't write a wide enough track to reliably write to a 40-track disk that has been written with a normal head. It's likely that the electronics is identical other than the jumper, and possibly the values of some passives. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun May 8 00:24:08 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 23:24:08 -0600 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) Message-ID: I got out my Tektronix DAS 9129 logic analyzer mainframe, which uses a red/green/yellow beam penetration CRT. It uses raster scan, whereas my other device with a beam penetration CRT, the HP 1338A (also red/green/yellow) is a vector (X-Y) display. I'm pleased to find that the 9129 passes self-test and the display works. Unfortunately I do not have any logic analyzer acquisition or pattern generator modules for it, so other than admiring the pretty display, it's only useful as a boat anchor. From jws at jwsss.com Sat May 7 17:33:31 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 15:33:31 -0700 Subject: Is there an authoritative copy of the PDP 11 Field Guide? In-Reply-To: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0cce8b3f-df2d-891e-8475-78b68bb2eae6@jwsss.com> On 5/7/2016 11:04 AM, paul popelka wrote: > I've been using Megan Gentry's copy at http://world.std.com/~mbg/ but that seems to have disappeared recently.There seem to be several other copies available with different update dates. > Which copy of this do other people use?Thanks,Paul I have an account on world.std.com and have emailed about restoring the page. I don't know about the status of the user, but mbg no longer has an account there. Will let people know. I've had an account on world since it started for personal shell internet access. If someone has updates then they could be applied, or an alternate for hosting it could be done in an orderly fashion, rather than just going to dead web air. (test patterns / static) Meanwhile it was cached regularly by archive.org. https://web.archive.org/web/20151121162811/http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt thanks Jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat May 7 15:47:48 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 16:47:48 -0400 Subject: Is there an authoritative copy of the PDP 11 Field Guide? In-Reply-To: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 2:04 PM, paul popelka wrote: > blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px > #715FFA solid !important; padding-left:1ex !important; > background-color:white !important; } I've been using Megan Gentry's copy > at http://world.std.com/~mbg/ but that seems to have disappeared > recently.There seem to be several other copies available with different > update dates. > Which copy of this do other people use?Thanks,Paul > > > They're all pretty much the same. Everyone seems to have copies of the original. I have been lobbying for, should there actually be someone here who maintains *the* authoritative canonical PDP 11 field guide, to differentiate between the original PDP 11/10 as it is listed in the 1969 and 1970 PDP 11 Handbooks from the 1973 version of the same name. See page 1 of the 1970 edition for example. Check the original 1969 PDP 11 handbook, then read each one through to the 1974 version and you'll see what I mean. The "2nd 11/10" did not even appear along with the original 11/05 at first. It's not in the 1972 handbook. The 1st version is a KA11 like the 11/20, the 2nd version is a totally different machine. I climb down from my soap box. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From microtechdart at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:31:10 2016 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 03:31:10 -0500 Subject: Calling for [Point 4] IRIS programmers Message-ID: Hi, all. It's been a while since I've discussed anything here. We've made a lot of progress re-constructing a couple of Point 4 machines (as much as one can without the actual hardware), yet still need some help from a few knowledgeable folks in this 35+ year old OS. It was built on the DG Nova foundation, but made by Educational Data Systems, which became Point 4, for their Point 4 machines. So, it doesn't exactly "just run" on SimH Nova. We've been in regular contact with Bruce Ray, who is a true expert in all Data General and related systems. He has already helped us TREMENDOUSLY. http://NovasAreForever.org But other than Bruce Ray, are there any other folks here on this forum who may have had any IRIS programming, either on the Point 4, or another system of similarity in the late '70s to early '80s? I've hunted down a handful of people so far on LinkedIn and scouring the internet, and only a few of those have responded. But I just thought I'd make a shout out here. A small handful have kindly responded, with either limited recollection or availability, or both. In addition to Bruce, those who have contributed so far include David Takle, and one of the original Point 4 IRIS designers, Dan Paymar. We've added a LOT of new content and progress to our restoration/re-creation of what is turning out to be TWO distinct Point 4 IRIS systems. Stop by our site if you like, and especially review the directory page "Understranding IRIS": http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/understanding-iris.html Does anyone here have anything to add, or IRIS/Point 4 documentation that could be helpful here (other than what we have at http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/manuals.html ). Thanks all, I always appreciate the fantastic feedback here. -AJ http://MightyFrame.com http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun May 8 07:45:03 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 08:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? Message-ID: <20160508124503.61A8118C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > I'll check all PROM chips on both board sets tomorrow. Check out the Computer History wiki Web page first; I looked at a couple of boards, and added all the chip types I could find. DEC used a vast variety, it seems! Noel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun May 8 10:33:47 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 08 May 2016 10:33:47 -0500 Subject: HP breakup... Website & ftp being trashed ... save what you can In-Reply-To: <3602ce0f-17a0-1c3d-2b8e-6ba60caa936d@bitsavers.org> References: <9ac19315-e8a9-3855-efda-95cdf980f322@bitsavers.org> <48aea64f-32ca-e7c6-8366-36b132eae7a2@bitsavers.org> <572E08C9.7050505@gmail.com> <3602ce0f-17a0-1c3d-2b8e-6ba60caa936d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <572F5C5B.9020402@gmail.com> On 05/07/2016 02:14 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/7/16 8:24 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> shunted >> things across to an old 486 machine and wrote images there. >> > > I had thought about a mass conversion for all the versions of the diagnostics > and configuration programs, but then went back to all of the fires/ratholes I'm > dealing with. Right, at the moment it's probably more hassle than it's worth. In another decade... we'll see. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 8 10:50:14 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 08:50:14 -0700 Subject: CMU-CS-78-104 Message-ID: <3a32a2a6-eb95-c1e8-fa49-c9566b83d51d@bitsavers.org> Came across this in some stuff I got last week and thought it was pretty interesting http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cmu/cs-tr/CMU-CS-78-104_Impact_of_Implementation_Design_Tradeoffs_on_Performance_PDP-11_Feb78.pdf From elson at pico-systems.com Sun May 8 11:45:07 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 08 May 2016 11:45:07 -0500 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <572F6D13.7060203@pico-systems.com> On 05/08/2016 12:24 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I got out my Tektronix DAS 9129 logic analyzer mainframe, which uses a > red/green/yellow beam penetration CRT. It uses raster scan, whereas > my other device with a beam penetration CRT, the HP 1338A (also > red/green/yellow) is a vector (X-Y) display. > > I'm pleased to find that the 9129 passes self-test and the display > works. Unfortunately I do not have any logic analyzer acquisition or > pattern generator modules for it, so other than admiring the pretty > display, it's only useful as a boat anchor. > There is a LOT of Tek logic analyzer gear on eBay. Some of it goes fairly cheap, the older it is the cheaper. You can likely find the right acq modules within a month. The 91xx is REALLY old, too, so should cost more to ship the modules than the price for the units themselves. Jon From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun May 8 12:21:12 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 10:21:12 -0700 Subject: Facit 4070 to PC interface In-Reply-To: <572ABEB4.4010800@sbcglobal.net> References: <572ABEB4.4010800@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the link! I didn't know about it. Looks like a pretty straightforward trick, very helpful. Marc > On May 4, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> On 5/4/2016 5:52 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> Has anyone ever worked up a PC parallel port to Facit 4070 paper tape >> punch interface? >> >> I found one on a Swedish website. The punch parallel input looks like >> it is TTL compatible, but I can't find anything in the documentation >> that describes the input voltage specifications. >> >> Chuck > > Check this link out: > > http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~pmaydell/misc/cardpunch/dongle.htm > > It shows how to build a PC to 4070 interface. Basically inverting a few signals. > > Bob From pdaguytom at gmail.com Sun May 8 12:38:46 2016 From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 12:38:46 -0500 Subject: Decmate 2 error codes Message-ID: Just picked up a Decmate 2 and have managed to get a monitor, keyboard and boot disk (I think) setup for it, but when I attempt to boot it, I'm getting alternating error codes 17 and 19(on different boot attempts). I've searched and found some of the startup error codes but not these particular ones. Anyone know where I could find such a list? Thanks, Tom From spacewar at gmail.com Sun May 8 12:56:48 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 11:56:48 -0600 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: <572F6D13.7060203@pico-systems.com> References: <572F6D13.7060203@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On May 8, 2016 10:45 AM, "Jon Elson" wrote: > There is a LOT of Tek logic analyzer gear on eBay. Some of it goes fairly cheap, the older it is the cheaper. > You can likely find the right acq modules within a month. The 91xx is REALLY old, too, so should cost more to ship the modules than the price for the units themselves. The Tektronix DAS 9100 logic analyzer isn't old! Now my HP 5000A logic analyzer, THAT is old! :-) From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun May 8 14:11:40 2016 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 12:11:40 -0700 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > I'm pleased to find that the 9129 passes self-test and the display > works. Unfortunately I do not have any logic analyzer acquisition or > pattern generator modules for it, so other than admiring the pretty > display, it's only useful as a boat anchor. > Surplus Gizmos in Hillsboro Oregon recently had a bunch of Tek 9100 mainframes and parts recently. Last time I visited, a couple of weeks ago, they had a bunch of Tek 500 and 5000 frames and 2 shelfs of plugins. http://www.surplusgizmos.com/ No affiliation other than a very happy customer of theirs. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From lists at loomcom.com Sun May 8 14:46:23 2016 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 14:46:23 -0500 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> * On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 11:17:50PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > I have reason to believe that the CDC 9428 and 9429 are identical > > except that the 9429 is jumpered for 80 tracks and the 9428 is > > jumpered for 40 tracks... but I'm not 100% sure. > > They would have to have different heads, if the 40 track model was > standards-compliant and industry-compatible. Ahhh... of course, I should have thought of that. I am even more cautious about using the 9428 manual for 9429 service, then. -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 8 15:09:06 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 13:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> Message-ID: >>> I have reason to believe that the CDC 9428 and 9429 are identical >>> except that the 9429 is jumpered for 80 tracks and the 9428 is >>> jumpered for 40 tracks... but I'm not 100% sure. > * On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 11:17:50PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: >> They would have to have different heads, if the 40 track model was >> standards-compliant and industry-compatible. On Sun, 8 May 2016, Seth Morabito wrote: > Ahhh... of course, I should have thought of that. > I am even more cautious about using the 9428 manual for 9429 > service, then. Actually, many lines of drives, such as the Tandon TM100 have the same circuitry for both the 48tpi and 96tpi variants. (and the TM100-4M at 100tpi) A specific exception, that I don't think is relevant here, is that a 1.2M drive will have a few circuitry changes V a 48tpi/"360K" model, such as RWC (reduced write current), and sometimes a 300RPM V 360RPM control. But, a "360K" (CDC 9428) V "720K" (CDC 9429) are likely to be virtually identical other than step distance and head width. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 8 15:28:56 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 13:28:56 -0700 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> On 05/08/2016 01:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Actually, many lines of drives, such as the Tandon TM100 have the > same circuitry for both the 48tpi and 96tpi variants. (and the > TM100-4M at 100tpi) One of the things that endears to me those pieces of garbage is that they apparently changed PCB designs according to what parts they had on hand. I've got at least three different versions of the TM-100 PCBs, depending on the head stepper used (4 wire/6 wire). Some were better than others. Jugi was not known for quality production, just low cost Its amazing that so many survive--must be due the the numbers deployed. JTS hard drives, anyone? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 8 15:30:43 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 20:30:43 +0000 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> , <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > Actually, many lines of drives, such as the Tandon TM100 have the > > same circuitry for both the 48tpi and 96tpi variants. (and the > > TM100-4M at 100tpi) > > One of the things that endears to me those pieces of garbage is that They are considerably better than the Shugart drives with the plastic disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner.... > they apparently changed PCB designs according to what parts they had on > hand. I've got at least three different versions of the TM-100 PCBs, > depending on the head stepper used (4 wire/6 wire). Some were better > than others. HP used the TM100 in some of their machines. Oddly, the PCB is electrically identical to the normal Tandon one (even down to having jumper options that are never used in HP machines AFAIK) and has the same layout but is built like an HP board (entirely gold plated) and many of the ICs have 1820-xxxx numbers. -tony From pete at petelancashire.com Sun May 8 10:57:40 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 08:57:40 -0700 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought the Tektronix DAS used a custom tri-color crt, where the blue phosphor was replaced with yellow. On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I got out my Tektronix DAS 9129 logic analyzer mainframe, which uses a > red/green/yellow beam penetration CRT. It uses raster scan, whereas > my other device with a beam penetration CRT, the HP 1338A (also > red/green/yellow) is a vector (X-Y) display. > > I'm pleased to find that the 9129 passes self-test and the display > works. Unfortunately I do not have any logic analyzer acquisition or > pattern generator modules for it, so other than admiring the pretty > display, it's only useful as a boat anchor. > From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 8 15:49:49 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 13:49:49 -0700 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> On 05/08/2016 01:30 PM, tony duell wrote: > They are considerably better than the Shugart drives with the plastic > disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner.... Ah yes, the SA-400. When I was evaluating one, I wondered if Shugart was really serious about the things. Doubtless some engineer at Shugart was quite proud of himself for designing a ball-bearing follower for the spiral groove. Marks for being cheap. Oddly, my own troubles with the SA-400 (believe it or not, this was used as the original IBM offering for the 5150 drive) were with the tach circuit. Mine blew a small inductor. Among all of the 5.25" FH drives offered at the time, my vote still goes to Micropolis for designing the Sherman tank of drives. Leadscrew positioner with multiple steps per track. Probably among the most expensive 5.25" drives also. To their credit, Shugart did have the best hub-clamp setup. --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Sun May 8 15:54:21 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 13:54:21 -0700 Subject: Calling for [Point 4] IRIS programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 1:31 AM, Microtech Dart wrote: > Hi, all. It's been a while since I've discussed anything here. We've made > a lot of progress re-constructing a couple of Point 4 machines (as much as > one can without the actual hardware), yet still need some help from a few > knowledgeable folks in this 35+ year old OS. It was built on the DG Nova > foundation, but made by Educational Data Systems, which became Point 4, for > their Point 4 machines. So, it doesn't exactly "just run" on SimH Nova. > > We've been in regular contact with Bruce Ray, who is a true expert in all > Data General and related systems. He has already helped us TREMENDOUSLY. > http://NovasAreForever.org > > But other than Bruce Ray, are there any other folks here on this forum who > may have had any IRIS programming, either on the Point 4, or another system > of similarity in the late '70s to early '80s? > > I've hunted down a handful of people so far on LinkedIn and scouring the > internet, and only a few of those have responded. But I just thought I'd > make a shout out here. A small handful have kindly responded, with either > limited recollection or availability, or both. > > In addition to Bruce, those who have contributed so far include David > Takle, and one of the original Point 4 IRIS designers, Dan Paymar. > > We've added a LOT of new content and progress to our > restoration/re-creation of what is turning out to be TWO distinct Point 4 > IRIS systems. > > Stop by our site if you like, and especially review the directory page > "Understranding IRIS": > > http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/understanding-iris.html > > Does anyone here have anything to add, or IRIS/Point 4 documentation that > could be helpful here (other than what we have at > http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/manuals.html ). > > Thanks all, I always appreciate the fantastic feedback here. > > -AJ > http://MightyFrame.com > http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com > Very cool! Yes, I programmed on one of these in the late '70s, and I've casually Googled for info about it many times, with no success. So it's great to hear that someone has dug up some info on it and I'm not just hallucinating. I worked for a small company called Automated Funds Transfer Services (AFTS) that specialized in devices to read MICR, the special typeface used on checks (cheques), thus enabling automated reading. My big project was to develop a system for creating check printing masters, which had previously been done manually. Every time someone changed a phone number or moved, a new master had to be created, but by keeping the information in a database it was easy to make the edit and spit out a new master. I've often described IRIS as "BASIC with database extensions", and it was interesting writing a fault-resistant system in, well, BASIC. At one point in development, I asked our office manager to sit down at a terminal (ADM-3A) and 'just start pushing buttons'. When she couldn't crash it or get somewhere where she couldn't get back out, I said, 'Ship it!'. It was also a social experience: the system I had written replaced twelve people with special typewriters, with four people with ADM-3A terminals. I recall having some qualms about that, but recognized that 'progress' (whatever that means) wasn't going to be halted by my philosophical concerns, but my paycheck would. So there's my two cents' worth. Thanks for sharing this, it brings back some interesting memories.... -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 8 15:59:23 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 13:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > > Ahhh... of course, I should have thought of that. > > > I am even more cautious about using the 9428 manual for 9429 > > > service, then. >> Actually, many lines of drives, such as the Tandon TM100 have the >> same circuitry for both the 48tpi and 96tpi variants. (and the >> TM100-4M at 100tpi) On Sun, 8 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One of the things that endears to me those pieces of garbage is that > they apparently changed PCB designs according to what parts they had on > hand. I've got at least three different versions of the TM-100 PCBs, > depending on the head stepper used (4 wire/6 wire). Some were better > than others. Which would be an arument to be cautious about using the TM100-2 manual for the TM100-2, not just for the TM100-4. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun May 8 16:02:06 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 18:02:06 -0300 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> On 2016-05-08 5:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/08/2016 01:30 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> They are considerably better than the Shugart drives with the plastic >> disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner.... > Ah yes, the SA-400. When I was evaluating one, I wondered if Shugart > was really serious about the things. Doubtless some engineer at Shugart > was quite proud of himself for designing a ball-bearing follower for the > spiral groove. Marks for being cheap. > > Oddly, my own troubles with the SA-400 (believe it or not, this was used > as the original IBM offering for the 5150 drive) were with the tach > circuit. Mine blew a small inductor. > > Among all of the 5.25" FH drives offered at the time, my vote still goes > to Micropolis for designing the Sherman tank of drives. Leadscrew > positioner with multiple steps per track. Probably among the most > expensive 5.25" drives also. > > To their credit, Shugart did have the best hub-clamp setup. > > --Chuck Are you sure about the SA-400 being used in 5150s? All the ones I ever saw where Tandon TM-100s which look very much like them and I saw lots as a support person in an IBM lab in the early 80s. They have the same sort of motor setup to turn the diskette, but use a different head positioner. The TM-100s used a stepper with a taut band positioner. Paul. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 8 16:18:04 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 14:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Oddly, my own troubles with the SA-400 (believe it or not, this was used >> as the original IBM offering for the 5150 drive) were with the tach >> circuit. Mine blew a small inductor. On Sun, 8 May 2016, Paul Berger wrote: > Are you sure about the SA-400 being used in 5150s? All the ones I ever saw > where Tandon TM-100s which look very much like them and I saw lots as a > support person in an IBM lab in the early 80s. They have the same sort of > motor setup to turn the diskette, but use a different head positioner. The > TM-100s used a stepper with a taut band positioner. The first 5150s that I had, or saw, had Tandon TM100-1 (single sided). Followed (along with PC-DOS 1.10) with the TM100-2 (double sided). Later, I started to see some other brands of drives used by IBM in 5150s, but NEVER Shugart SA400. It would have at least had to be the SA400-L, since the SA400 was 35 track, and PC-DOS, from the get-go, used 40 tracks. The SA400 was, however, the original offering for the TRS80. Followed later by TM100-1 and a few others. And the SA390 (same mechanism, but without the circuit board) was used as original offering for Apple. There was an unconfirmed rumor that, for a while, when they ran short, that Apple bought SA400s and removed the board. I agree about Micropolis; it was the most reliable drive that I had, although kinda slow stepping. The LEAST reliable drives that I tried were the BASF 2/3 height, followed by the Qumetrak 142 (early 1/2 height) Worst problem that we faced with the TM100s was that students in the computer labs would let the door slam when opening, breaking the hinge. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 8 16:20:32 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 08 May 2016 22:20:32 +0100 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment Message-ID: Hi folks, Picked up a couple of nice condition VT's today, a VT101 and VT131 though only one DEC keyboard. 2 other keyboards were included which look identical to DEC ones but have different keytops and obvious non-DEC cables though they have the 6mm jack plug on the end. Need to dig into those. Anyhoo, the VT101's screen is showing the stretch-at-top-compress-at-bottom issue, is that adjustable using the troubleshooting guide in the technical reference or am I looking at replacing some caps? I also get character set glitches and it either doesn't register key presses or registers too many, I know it's not the keyboard itself since I've tried my 'DECbox' VT102 keyboard and it does the same. Not looked at the 5V rail yet, that's a job for tomorrow... cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 8 16:23:48 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 14:23:48 -0700 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <572FAE64.9000709@sydex.com> On 05/08/2016 02:02 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > Are you sure about the SA-400 being used in 5150s? All the ones I > ever saw where Tandon TM-100s which look very much like them and I > saw lots as a support person in an IBM lab in the early 80s. They > have the same sort of motor setup to turn the diskette, but use a > different head positioner. The TM-100s used a stepper with a taut > band positioner. Quite. I purchased my 64K 5150 from Computerland in San Jose (I probably still have the receipt) and included an MDA, a floppy controller, the SA-400, as well as PCDOS 1.1, MASM 1.0 and the techref. I didn't buy a monitor because I already had an OEM kit monitor that was probably better than the 5151. I later added a Quadram Quadboard with 256KB of memory--and then moved to PCDOS 2.1 and worked out a simple interface to a WD1000 controller with a Shugart SA-1000 hard drive, giving me 4MB of real hard disk. When I was on a floppy-only system, I added a Micropolis 1115-VI second drive. An odd beast with buffered seek. So, yes, I'm quite sure. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 8 16:32:08 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 14:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> <572FA94E.6080103@gmail.com> Message-ID: > It would have at least had to be the SA400-L, since the SA400 was 35 track, > and PC-DOS, from the get-go, used 40 tracks. Or [trivially] patched. Either done right, or kludged by putting a non-existent file in the directory occupying tracks 35-39. There were some strange patches in the early days! PC-DOS 1.00 was single sided only, but the FDC supported double sided, and double sided drives were very available. There was a patch being passed around that would permit installing a double sided drive, and the second side would be treated as though it were an additional drive. I never got around to trying that with 4 drives installed, . . . Does anybody know what the actual origin was for that patch? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 8 16:33:55 2016 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 22:33:55 +0100 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> Message-ID: <572FB0C3.20607@philpem.me.uk> On 08/05/16 21:49, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/08/2016 01:30 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> They are considerably better than the Shugart drives with the plastic >> disk with a spiral groove for the head positioner.... > > Ah yes, the SA-400. When I was evaluating one, I wondered if Shugart > was really serious about the things. Doubtless some engineer at Shugart > was quite proud of himself for designing a ball-bearing follower for the > spiral groove. Marks for being cheap. > > Oddly, my own troubles with the SA-400 (believe it or not, this was used > as the original IBM offering for the 5150 drive) were with the tach > circuit. Mine blew a small inductor. > > Among all of the 5.25" FH drives offered at the time, my vote still goes > to Micropolis for designing the Sherman tank of drives. Leadscrew > positioner with multiple steps per track. Probably among the most > expensive 5.25" drives also. > > To their credit, Shugart did have the best hub-clamp setup. > > --Chuck > > My awards list more or less goes as follows: Hardest to align: Nintendo Famicom Disk System. For bonus points, when you replace the drive belt, you have to realign the drive hub, which sets the "start of track" position. There must be a jig or procedure to do this, but I've never seen it. Homebrew procedure is to loosen the hub and rotate it a few degrees until things align and the drive works... The hub alignment, incidentally, is critical because the discs are written as a continuous spiral track, not a series of concentric tracks. Nicest half-height 5.25in: Teac FD-550 series I love these drives to bits. There are a bunch of variants (40/80 track, 1.2Meg and 360K) but they're pretty solid performers. Fairly good at reading crusty old disks. Keep a few Bemcot wipes and some isopropyl around to clean the heads. Weirdest drive interface: the NEC 8-inch drive Uses something called a "VFO" interface (I think I remembered that right?), which is a Japanese standard. Also needs to be rejumpered to provide raw data output. This is jolly good fun, because the jumpers (if memory serves) have quite odd labels... The "What were they thinking?!" award: Amstrad 3-incher, made by Panasonic. PC style power connector pinout. With the 5V and 12V swapped. You can bet every one of these you'll find that's been "tested working, motor spins when powered but that's normal" will have a fried ASIC. Again, has a drive belt, but at least you can replace this without cocking up the alignment. For 3.5in PC drives, I quite like the Sony drives. From experience with DiscFerret, they're pretty good at pulling a clean signal off discs some other drives won't even read. Some Panasonic drives are better built, though. Apples and oranges. Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 8 18:31:00 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 16:31:00 -0700 Subject: CDC 9429 Floppy maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <572FB0C3.20607@philpem.me.uk> References: <20160507191914.GA11677@loomcom.com> <20160508194623.GA23475@loomcom.com> <572FA188.2090705@sydex.com> <572FA66D.7020905@sydex.com> <572FB0C3.20607@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <572FCC34.305@sydex.com> On 05/08/2016 02:33 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > My awards list more or less goes as follows: > > Hardest to align: Nintendo Famicom Disk System. For bonus points, > when you replace the drive belt, you have to realign the drive hub, > which sets the "start of track" position. There must be a jig or > procedure to do this, but I've never seen it. Homebrew procedure is > to loosen the hub and rotate it a few degrees until things align and > the drive works... The hub alignment, incidentally, is critical > because the discs are written as a continuous spiral track, not a > series of concentric tracks. Used on the Smith-Corona PWPs as well. Sad part is that the old belt turns to goo and is hard to clean and get running again. There is/was a seller on eBay who was offering polyurethane replacements. I've got a pile of those sitting in my freezer. > Nicest half-height 5.25in: Teac FD-550 series I love these drives to > bits. There are a bunch of variants (40/80 track, 1.2Meg and 360K) > but they're pretty solid performers. Fairly good at reading crusty > old disks. Keep a few Bemcot wipes and some isopropyl around to clean > the heads. I think you mean FD-55 series. Shame that they never made any 100 tpi varieties, but Teac did rebadge someone else's FH 100 tpi drive. > Weirdest drive interface: the NEC 8-inch drive Uses something called > a "VFO" interface (I think I remembered that right?), which is a > Japanese standard. Also needs to be rejumpered to provide raw data > output. This is jolly good fun, because the jumpers (if memory > serves) have quite odd labels... You can find old PC98-era Japanese stuff (along with some CNC gear) that requires these. Getting the gear going with a commodity legacy drive is a real chore--there used to be a manufacturer of external PLL data separator boards to accomplish this. > The "What were they thinking?!" award: Amstrad 3-incher, made by > Panasonic. PC style power connector pinout. With the 5V and 12V > swapped. You can bet every one of these you'll find that's been > "tested working, motor spins when powered but that's normal" will > have a fried ASIC. Again, has a drive belt, but at least you can > replace this without cocking up the alignment. I've done in a 3.5" drive on a Joyce by thinking that nobody would be so stupid as to swap the +5 and +12 on the same connector. Yes, it fried the drive. Also, the interface cable requires some serious 'reweaving' to interface to a traditional (Shugart-style) interface. > For 3.5in PC drives, I quite like the Sony drives. From experience > with DiscFerret, they're pretty good at pulling a clean signal off > discs some other drives won't even read. Some Panasonic drives are > better built, though. Apples and oranges. I've lately taken up with Samsung SFD-321B drives for general use. Well-made and very flexible. I occasionally provide drives to the CNC people where pin 34 is READY/ and pin 2 is DISK CHANGED/ with DS0 and 1.6MB (360 RPM) mode. All easily done with the Sammies. --------- On a related note of "weird and wonderful", does anyone have media for the Western Digital "Take Ten" cartridge drive? --Chuck From microtechdart at gmail.com Sun May 8 20:05:44 2016 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 20:05:44 -0500 Subject: Calling for [Point 4] IRIS programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for sharing that, Ian! Your story is exactly what I was hoping to gather here. Does our dissection of the LU0 make any sense to you? On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 1:31 AM, Microtech Dart > wrote: > > > Hi, all. It's been a while since I've discussed anything here. We've > made > > a lot of progress re-constructing a couple of Point 4 machines (as much > as > > one can without the actual hardware), yet still need some help from a few > > knowledgeable folks in this 35+ year old OS. It was built on the DG Nova > > foundation, but made by Educational Data Systems, which became Point 4, > for > > their Point 4 machines. So, it doesn't exactly "just run" on SimH Nova. > > > > We've been in regular contact with Bruce Ray, who is a true expert in all > > Data General and related systems. He has already helped us TREMENDOUSLY. > > http://NovasAreForever.org > > > > But other than Bruce Ray, are there any other folks here on this forum > who > > may have had any IRIS programming, either on the Point 4, or another > system > > of similarity in the late '70s to early '80s? > > > > I've hunted down a handful of people so far on LinkedIn and scouring the > > internet, and only a few of those have responded. But I just thought I'd > > make a shout out here. A small handful have kindly responded, with either > > limited recollection or availability, or both. > > > > In addition to Bruce, those who have contributed so far include David > > Takle, and one of the original Point 4 IRIS designers, Dan Paymar. > > > > We've added a LOT of new content and progress to our > > restoration/re-creation of what is turning out to be TWO distinct Point 4 > > IRIS systems. > > > > Stop by our site if you like, and especially review the directory page > > "Understranding IRIS": > > > > http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/understanding-iris.html > > > > Does anyone here have anything to add, or IRIS/Point 4 documentation that > > could be helpful here (other than what we have at > > http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/p/manuals.html ). > > > > Thanks all, I always appreciate the fantastic feedback here. > > > > -AJ > > http://MightyFrame.com > > http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com > > > > Very cool! Yes, I programmed on one of these in the late '70s, and I've > casually Googled for info about it many times, with no success. So it's > great to hear that someone has dug up some info on it and I'm not just > hallucinating. > > I worked for a small company called Automated Funds Transfer Services > (AFTS) that specialized in devices to read MICR, the special typeface used > on checks (cheques), thus enabling automated reading. My big project was > to develop a system for creating check printing masters, which had > previously been done manually. Every time someone changed a phone number > or moved, a new master had to be created, but by keeping the information in > a database it was easy to make the edit and spit out a new master. > > I've often described IRIS as "BASIC with database extensions", and it was > interesting writing a fault-resistant system in, well, BASIC. At one point > in development, I asked our office manager to sit down at a terminal > (ADM-3A) and 'just start pushing buttons'. When she couldn't crash it or > get somewhere where she couldn't get back out, I said, 'Ship it!'. > > It was also a social experience: the system I had written replaced twelve > people with special typewriters, with four people with ADM-3A terminals. I > recall having some qualms about that, but recognized that 'progress' > (whatever that means) wasn't going to be halted by my philosophical > concerns, but my paycheck would. > > So there's my two cents' worth. Thanks for sharing this, it brings back > some interesting memories.... -- Ian > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From elson at pico-systems.com Sun May 8 22:34:43 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 08 May 2016 22:34:43 -0500 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57300553.6060003@pico-systems.com> On 05/08/2016 04:20 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Anyhoo, the VT101's screen is showing the stretch-at-top-compress-at-bottom > issue, is that adjustable using the troubleshooting guide in the technical > reference or am I looking at replacing some caps? > > I'm guessing this is due to a failing non-polar capacitor in the vertical sweep circuit. That is a real common flaw in old TVs and video monitors. Jon From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:59:29 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 22:59:29 -0500 Subject: It has been quiet. In-Reply-To: <3e4747.6ee0e13b.44530202@aol.com> References: <3e4747.6ee0e13b.44530202@aol.com> Message-ID: all your msgs are going into my spam box ust noticed this On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 1:04 AM, wrote: > nope it is working > > > > In a message dated 4/27/2016 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > dkelvey at hotmail.com writes: > > Has the list gone down or just dropped me again? > From spacewar at gmail.com Sun May 8 23:33:32 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 22:33:32 -0600 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 9:57 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > I thought the Tektronix DAS used a custom tri-color crt, where the > blue phosphor was replaced with yellow. It is custom, and it is tri-color (red, green, yellow), but it's a beam penetration CRT that is not a modified version of any normal color CRT. There is no shadow mask, and it can only draw one color per field, like the 1951 CBS field-sequential color television, though that was done with a color wheel while this is done by modulating the anode voltage (and possibly the deflection drive as well). From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 8 21:02:29 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 21:02:29 -0500 Subject: Is there an authoritative copy of the PDP 11 Field Guide? In-Reply-To: <0cce8b3f-df2d-891e-8475-78b68bb2eae6@jwsss.com> References: <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <218231105.295956.1462644274643.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <0cce8b3f-df2d-891e-8475-78b68bb2eae6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <000001d1a996$d78dd480$86a97d80$@classiccmp.org> I would be happy to host this, but I don't want to irk the content owner (Megan)... who I have heard is very much still around.... J From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon May 9 00:30:57 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 06:30:57 +0100 Subject: It has been quiet. In-Reply-To: References: <3e4747.6ee0e13b.44530202@aol.com> Message-ID: <9946e148-5f18-e843-bc33-61940125b479@btinternet.com> On 09/05/2016 04:59, Adrian Stoness wrote: > all your msgs are going into my spam box ust noticed this > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 1:04 AM, wrote: > >> nope it is working >> >> >> >> In a message dated 4/27/2016 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, >> dkelvey at hotmail.com writes: >> >> Has the list gone down or just dropped me again? >> nope it is working From julian at twinax.org Mon May 9 01:55:48 2016 From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 09:55:48 +0300 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <0000f658a042$8debe5bb$45002cac$@twinax.org> Hello! You have a new message, please read julian at twinax.org From julian at twinax.org Mon May 9 01:55:48 2016 From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 09:55:48 +0300 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <0000f658a042$8debe5bb$45002cac$@twinax.org> Hello! You have a new message, please read julian at twinax.org From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 9 04:29:57 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 11:29:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 May 2016, Mattis Lind wrote: > What are the failure modes of PROMs? I had a PROM fail on the 11/45 CPU board. This PROM is responsible for the Conditional Codes handling. There was one output that had failed. I think that the output drivers may fail, because I was able to temporarily fix the problem by adding a pull-_down_ resistor to the (open-collector) output. That fix was unstable of course, and I ended up in replacing the PROM with a GAL (ugly fix because the pinout doesn't match well, and there is no space for a nice adapter solution) Christian From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 9 06:13:11 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 13:13:11 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-05-09 11:29 GMT+02:00 Christian Corti : > On Sat, 7 May 2016, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> What are the failure modes of PROMs? >> > > I had a PROM fail on the 11/45 CPU board. This PROM is responsible for the > Conditional Codes handling. There was one output that had failed. I think > that the output drivers may fail, because I was able to temporarily fix the > problem by adding a pull-_down_ resistor to the (open-collector) output. > That fix was unstable of course, and I ended up in replacing the PROM with > a GAL (ugly fix because the pinout doesn't match well, and there is no > space for a nice adapter solution) In this case it was not a OC driver since it didn't affect all the addresses in the memory. Nor was it a single bit due to NiCr fuse regrowth since that should change the bit in one single direction as far as I understand. In this case random bits, as it seems, were changed in both directions. Never seen this type of symptom before. But I have had all sorts of strange problem with NS chips dated in the early seventies earlier. Last time I had a PROM failure is what the internal address decoding that failed which was easily seen as certain patterns repeated all the time /Mattis > > > Christian > From radiotest at juno.com Mon May 9 06:16:31 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 07:16:31 -0400 Subject: It has been quiet. In-Reply-To: <9946e148-5f18-e843-bc33-61940125b479@btinternet.com> References: <3e4747.6ee0e13b.44530202@aol.com> <9946e148-5f18-e843-bc33-61940125b479@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160509071401.03fc4390@juno.com> At 01:30 AM 5/9/2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: >nope it is working To see if the list is working check the archives. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 9 09:03:37 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 08:03:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: > Anyhoo, the VT101's screen is showing the > stretch-at-top-compress-at-bottom issue, is that adjustable using the > troubleshooting guide in the technical reference or am I looking at > replacing some caps? It sounds like a problem with what they call "deflection". I don't know about VT101's specifically, but there are usually a set of pots on the CRT logic board (the PCB mounted on the rear of the tube) you can adjust for such things. Check out this section of the Monitor Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/monfaq.htm#mondefl Depending on the type of distortion you are seeing, you'll need to adjust the pots to compensate. -Swift From pete at petelancashire.com Mon May 9 08:45:25 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 06:45:25 -0700 Subject: Beam-penetration color CRT, Tektronix DAS 912x (was Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I must be thinking of a different model. On May 8, 2016 9:33 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 9:57 AM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > > I thought the Tektronix DAS used a custom tri-color crt, where the > > blue phosphor was replaced with yellow. > > It is custom, and it is tri-color (red, green, yellow), but it's a > beam penetration CRT that is not a modified version of any normal > color CRT. There is no shadow mask, and it can only draw one color per > field, like the 1951 CBS field-sequential color television, though > that was done with a color wheel while this is done by modulating the > anode voltage (and possibly the deflection drive as well). > > From spacewar at gmail.com Mon May 9 12:42:06 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 11:42:06 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 5:13 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Last time I had a PROM failure is what the internal address decoding that > failed which was easily seen as certain patterns repeated all the time Not impossible, but it seems more likely that one of the address input pad buffers failed. From bradhodge75 at gmail.com Mon May 9 10:56:13 2016 From: bradhodge75 at gmail.com (Brad H) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 08:56:13 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder Message-ID: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> Hi there, I have a Memodyne M-80 Digital Cassette 'Computer' which, in talking to people more experienced than me, seems to be just a digital cassette recorder. Googling around there seems to be very little info out there, although one paper written about their use with scientific equipment detailed some of the bits triggered to make the recorder operate. Mine has several cards including a Z80 CPU card and serial input/output. I was wondering if anyone out there was familiar with these and/or had a manual? I read these were even used sometimes with SWTPC terminals/computers, so I'd be interested to see if I can get it running. Thanks!! Brad From mattislind at gmail.com Mon May 9 13:23:17 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 20:23:17 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-05-09 19:42 GMT+02:00 Eric Smith : > On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 5:13 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Last time I had a PROM failure is what the internal address decoding that > > failed which was easily seen as certain patterns repeated all the time > > Not impossible, but it seems more likely that one of the address input > pad buffers failed. > You're probably right in that. On the other hand looking back on what I wrote I see that I wasn't completely accurate in describing the symptom... The symptom was that the upper 128 words was inclusive-OR:ed with the lower 128 words resulting in a quite strange upper 128 words. That was my reason for suspecting the faulty address decoder. Anyhow I have now ordered a bunch of Texas TBP24SA010 chips which I hope the old Data I/O 29B will be able to program successfully. From derschjo at gmail.com Mon May 9 13:31:07 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 11:31:07 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-05-09 19:42 GMT+02:00 Eric Smith : > > > On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 5:13 AM, Mattis Lind > wrote: > > > Last time I had a PROM failure is what the internal address decoding > that > > > failed which was easily seen as certain patterns repeated all the time > > > > Not impossible, but it seems more likely that one of the address input > > pad buffers failed. > > > > You're probably right in that. On the other hand looking back on what I > wrote I see that I wasn't completely accurate in describing the symptom... > The symptom was that the upper 128 words was inclusive-OR:ed with the lower > 128 words resulting in a quite strange upper 128 words. That was my reason > for suspecting the faulty address decoder. > > Anyhow I have now ordered a bunch of Texas TBP24SA010 chips which I hope > the old Data I/O 29B will be able to program successfully. > Having just programmed some 24SA10's a couple of weeks back on a Data I/O 29B, I can report that you should be fine... - Josh From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 9 15:28:10 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 21:28:10 +0100 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 09/05/2016 15:03, "Swift Griggs" wrote: > On Sun, 8 May 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Anyhoo, the VT101's screen is showing the >> stretch-at-top-compress-at-bottom issue, is that adjustable using the >> troubleshooting guide in the technical reference or am I looking at >> replacing some caps? > > It sounds like a problem with what they call "deflection". I don't know > about VT101's specifically, but there are usually a set of pots on the CRT > logic board (the PCB mounted on the rear of the tube) you can adjust for > such things. Check out this section of the Monitor Repair FAQ: > > http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/monfaq.htm#mondefl > > Depending on the type of distortion you are seeing, you'll need to adjust > the pots to compensate. Thanks for that, I now know it's vertical deflection which is adjusted by A102 on the monitor board so I'm just about to give it a tweak once I find my plastic trimmers and a screwdriver small enough to get the top off, it's the only VT1xx I have with all fasteners intact. Also that repairfaq lost me an hour at lunchtime while I read it, why did I not know about it before! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 9 16:15:46 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 15:15:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 May 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: > Thanks for that, I now know it's vertical deflection which is adjusted > by A102 on the monitor board so I'm just about to give it a tweak once I > find my plastic trimmers and a screwdriver small enough to get the top > off, it's the only VT1xx I have with all fasteners intact. No problem, I've often noticed a couple of things you should know: 1. Many times the pots are plastic. Be careful when you first "break" them loose, I've ruined a few in Trinitrons which were stuck so hard the thing kind of fell apart when twisting it. 2. Make darn sure you discharge the tube before you work on it. I use a flathead screwdriver with a 12g wire attached to it that runs down to grounded pipe. They will zap the living snot out of you if you don't. Just tie off the wire to a grounded source then stick the screwdriver underneath what looks like a little suction pad on the tube. You'll usually hear it discharge with a POP! If you already knew this, sorry, but I wanted to be sure you didn't get shocked. Messing with the CRT logic board is a great way to take a few thousand volts. :-) 3. Those CRT logic boards are usually replaceable all as a piece. Also, as someone already stated, they often have caps on them which impact the vertical sweep. If those go out, adjusting the pots does nothing or makes things look ruined/jittery. Some people can re-cap them, I've only done that once with another smarter guy watching me do it. I just usually replace the board if possible. > Also that repairfaq lost me an hour at lunchtime while I read it, why > did I not know about it before! Maybe you just hadn't needed to before. I used to work on monitors a long time ago, but I was never any good with electronics because I was never trained or self-motivated enough to learn digital theory or fight a logic analyzer or Verilog with any acumen. It's another hobby I'll have another go at one of these days. Today, I can mostly fix my guitar amps (old and analog), so that's good enough (for now). I learned those skills from doing electronics kit projects when I was a pre-teen and some extra analog tricks with a scope that I learned from an old hippie. I'll probably use the same sort of methods (but maybe start with some Arduino gear instead) the next time I try to pick up some more EE skills. It's hard not to be intimidated by all these guys on the list with mad electronics chops (Maciej, Eric, Fred and others are incredible; they know soooo much). -Swift From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon May 9 16:21:52 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 17:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > 2. Make darn sure you discharge the tube before you work on it. I've seen it said that discharging with a very low resistance path - like a piece of wire - can damage things. I don't know how much risk there really is, but I would tend do something like inserting a 100K or 1M resistor in the path to ground. The capacitance of the tube is low enough that the time constant is pretty low even with a resistor that high. If I'm off base, I'm sure someone will correct me! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 9 16:36:43 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 15:36:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? Message-ID: I figure I'm good for about eighty hours or so of reading and fooling around with electronics before I'll want to move onto a different hobby for a while (I rotate through a whole bunch). That's my normal MO. So, I'm wondering what kind of skills I could build with that time, once I get started. I'd love to hear if anyone has suggestions for how to use my time wisely to learn skills that would be most useful for working on older machines (mid 80's to late 90's is my focus as far as a hardware bandpass). Here's what I (think) I know now: - Basics about electricity. Ie.. Ohms law, power vs frequency, etc.. - I understand basic physics ("A" in 100-level college course and two years of high school physics, too). I actually had an excellent teacher, too! - I used to do math to about a 300-400 level, but now I'm at a 100-200 level (I can still do most algebra II, some trig, and a few other bits). - I understand what most analog components do (resistors, capacitors, diodes, etc..). I can run a volt-meter, and super-basic operations with an analog scope (checking test points and that kind of simple crap) . I also have a rudimentary rig for soldering etc... - Since I'm a coder, I understand boolean logic (which I hope would help with ICs). - I took a digital electronics course in college. However, it was pathetic and it's all gone now anyway. I've spent most of my technical energy learning coding and sysadmin skills, not hardware. I'm still interested in it, though. I'm most comfortable with self-teaching via projects. Any that you folks would recommend (even if they are for kids, I don't mind, I'm not proud) I'd love to hear about them. Books, project kits, etc.. My goal would be able to understand 40% of what is happening on an Amiga 500 or that level of machine. If I could do that.... wow. fun. cool. Plus I bet I could repair many more items/problems than I can today. -Swift From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon May 9 16:48:29 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 17:48:29 -0400 Subject: Wanted: IA-2000 Z80 CPU board... Message-ID: <1ef001d1aa3c$86a4ec10$93eec430$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Hi, I have an InterSystems DPS-1 chassis in pretty good condition coming my way and I'd like to put an IA-2000 CPU in it. Anybody have one they might consider selling? Thanks, Bill S. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 9 17:46:45 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 23:46:45 +0100 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 09/05/2016 22:21, "Mouse" wrote: >> 2. Make darn sure you discharge the tube before you work on it. > > I've seen it said that discharging with a very low resistance path - > like a piece of wire - can damage things. I don't know how much risk > there really is, but I would tend do something like inserting a 100K or > 1M resistor in the path to ground. The capacitance of the tube is low > enough that the time constant is pretty low even with a resistor that > high. > > If I'm off base, I'm sure someone will correct me! Not correct so much as to say what's in the official DEC docs for working on these things where they show a line drawing of a standard screwdriver with a ground wire attached. My own discharge tool is a big plastic handled flat blade with ground wire and croc clip, long may it make me nervous when using it. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 9 17:52:52 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 23:52:52 +0100 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 09/05/2016 22:15, "Swift Griggs" wrote: > On Mon, 9 May 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Thanks for that, I now know it's vertical deflection which is adjusted >> by A102 on the monitor board so I'm just about to give it a tweak once I >> find my plastic trimmers and a screwdriver small enough to get the top >> off, it's the only VT1xx I have with all fasteners intact. > > No problem, I've often noticed a couple of things you should know: > > 1. Many times the pots are plastic. Be careful when you first "break" them > loose, I've ruined a few in Trinitrons which were stuck so hard the thing > kind of fell apart when twisting it. Yes indeed. Fortunately this one wielded under my trimmer and all is properly aligned now. All I need to do now is troubleshoot the keyboard circuit which I hope is the same as the VT102... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bradhodge75 at gmail.com Mon May 9 18:01:44 2016 From: bradhodge75 at gmail.com (Brad H) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 16:01:44 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M-80 'Cassette Computer' Message-ID: <182a01d1aa46$c2160270$46420750$@gmail.com> Hi guys, I have a Memodyne M80 'Cassette Computer'. From what I've gathered, it's basically just a digital tape drive (it has about 5 boards in it, including a Z80 board with an emprom marked '1200 baud', although from one sales doc it looks like it could have been built out to be a 'general purpose' Z80 computer. I've read these were used for a variety of purposes including SWTPC terminals like mine. What I cannot find though is any actual instruction manuals, etc that explain how to use it. I did find one PDF online as part of a university paper that described another Memodyne's system a little bit. Wondering if anyone has any info out there. It's a neat little box to look at, anyway. Many thanks, esp. to those like Chuck who were able to offer some useful advice thus far on it! :) Brad From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 9 19:20:57 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 00:20:57 +0000 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1C9412BB-F8A5-45F1-86DD-2A9C44890A72@swri.edu> On May 9, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Mouse wrote: > I would tend do something like inserting a 100K or > 1M resistor in the path to ground. ... > > If I'm off base, I'm sure someone will correct me! I strongly second Mouse?s recommendation (and to you too, Adrian). Suddenly placing a large charge anyplace on your ground plane (the pipe is as good a choice as I can think of, but ?.) could invert diodes, back-bias transistors, etc. etc. and it?s just so easy to avoid by having a large high-voltage resistor in series with your clip. No loud snap, no pyrotechnics, your hand won?t jump in involuntary reaction to the loud snap - it?s just a much more controlled and gentle effect on the system. I have not done it myself (either way) but have seen it done, and it works well. Resistors are really cheap insurance in this context. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon May 9 20:12:19 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 20:12:19 -0500 Subject: It has been quiet. In-Reply-To: References: <3e4747.6ee0e13b.44530202@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > all your msgs are going into my spam box ust noticed this > Gmail always tells me COURYHOUSE's messages would have been treated as spam, if I hadn't specifically exempted the messages of this list from ever being blocked. I wonder if Google has a prejudice against aol.com addresses? :) > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 1:04 AM, wrote: > > > nope it is working > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/27/2016 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > > dkelvey at hotmail.com writes: > > > > Has the list gone down or just dropped me again? > > > -- Eric Christopherson From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 9 21:17:39 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 19:17:39 -0700 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <1C9412BB-F8A5-45F1-86DD-2A9C44890A72@swri.edu> References: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1C9412BB-F8A5-45F1-86DD-2A9C44890A72@swri.edu> Message-ID: <633F6BBA-B51A-4526-B693-85ABC53CF02F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-09, at 5:20 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > On May 9, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> I would tend do something like inserting a 100K or >> 1M resistor in the path to ground. ... >> >> If I'm off base, I'm sure someone will correct me! > > I strongly second Mouse?s recommendation (and to you too, Adrian). Suddenly placing a large charge anyplace on your ground plane (the pipe is as good a choice as I can think of, but ?.) could invert diodes, back-bias transistors, etc. etc. and it?s just so easy to avoid by having a large high-voltage resistor in series with your clip. No loud snap, no pyrotechnics, your hand won?t jump in involuntary reaction to the loud snap - it?s just a much more controlled and gentle effect on the system. > I have not done it myself (either way) but have seen it done, and it works well. Resistors are really cheap insurance in this context. Resistors to limit the initial discharge current are a good practice for all those reasons, I would additionally suggest the place to put the 'ground' clip is on the ground straps over the CRT bell, or the ground wire coming from those straps, so the discharge currents are localised to the CRT. The CRT doesn't discharge to 'earth' or 'ground' (earth/ground is not some inherent vast expanse of charge sink), it discharges 'to' the outside of the bell. The bell forms a capacitor: one plate is a coating on the inside, one plate a coating on the outside, and the glass the dielectric. (Pedantically, at discharge, electrons flow from the outside plate of the bell to the inside plate.) Another good practice is to use several carbon-composition resistors in series, to increase the physical path length to avoid arcing across/within resistor(s). 1 or 2W resistors are all the better, not for power-handling but for the greater distance between the leads. Common film resistors with an internal spiral resistive element present a very short path for arcs to jump over. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon May 9 22:28:24 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 05:28:24 +0200 Subject: It has been quiet. Message-ID: On 10 May 2016 at 03:12, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Gmail always tells me COURYHOUSE's messages would have been treated as > spam, if I hadn't specifically exempted the messages of this list from ever > being blocked. I wonder if Google has a prejudice against aol.com > addresses? :) No, it's a problem caused by the mailing list, yahoo (and presumably aol as well) use an authentication system to let recipients validate that the email is legit. That doesn't work properly with many standard mailing lists. Google 'dmarc yahoo mailing list', for example. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon May 9 22:41:05 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 23:41:05 -0400 Subject: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from] In-Reply-To: <01ff01d1a2c7$2da402d0$88ec0870$@gmail.com> References: <20160429201216.5D29B18C11C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201604300156.VAA10016@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01ff01d1a2c7$2da402d0$88ec0870$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57315851.7040904@compsys.to> >Dave Wade wrote: >Fortran has an EQUIVALENCE statement, COBOL has redefines. Both allows the >subversion of types at the drop of a hat. > I can think of two examples which were not so much subversion of types as they were a lack of language flexibility: (a) Very early in my FORTRAN experience, I needed to calculate values to solve a set of differential equations. The calculations could all be done using ordinary REAL floating point variables. However, the precision required to retain sufficient accuracy over the range of the solution required the state variables to be held as DOUBLE PRECISION variables. The simple solution was to define the increments to be added to the state variables as both REAL and DOUBLE PRECISION and to use the EQUIVALENCE statement for both. The state variables were managed in the same manner. When the increments were being calculated, the REAL variables were used. When the increments were being added to the state variables, DOUBLE PRECISION were used. In order to determine that this was a reasonable method, at one point only DOUBLE PRECISION variables were used to see if the overall results were different. By using only REAL variables during the calculation of the increments, calculation times was substantially reduced without sacrificing any overall accuracy since the increments were always a factor of a million or more less than the state variables. As just one example, one state variable was a distance of about 20,000,000 feet and each increment was at the most less than one foot. It sufficient to calculate the increment with a REAL variable, then switch to DOUBLE PRECISION when the increment was added to the state variable. At the end of the solution, the state variable was reduced to about 100,000 feet. However, using only REAL variables would have been inaccurate and using only DOUBLE PRECISION was a waste of CPU time. (b) At one point, the value within a variable for the number of days since 1910 exceeded 32767 when the Y2K situation was also close to becoming a problem. However, the total number of days never exceeded 65535, so a 4 byte integer was never required. BUT, the FORTRAN flavour which was being used did not support UNSIGNED variables. The only occasion when that became a problem was when the number of days had to be divided by 7 in order to determine the day of the week. Since that FORTRAN compiler thought the variable was SIGNED, before dividing by 7 the "SXT R0" instruction extended the high order bit in R1 into R0 just prior to the "DIV #7,R0" instruction. Rather than some very complicated manner of managing that single situation, the best solution seemed to be to change the "SXT R0" instruction to the "CLR R0" instruction - which, in effect, changed the variable being used during the divide operation to UNSIGNED from SIGNED. If that FORTRAN compiler had also supported UNSIGNED variables, the same sort of solution as was used in (a) might have been used. It was recognized that making such a change to the program being executed would force future updates through the same requirement, however, there were very few "SXT R0" being used and only ONE which was followed by the "DIV #7,R0" instruction. Probably the same sort of method could also be used with C when such situations occur. In general, although it might be considered a subversion, a more appropriate point of view might be that the same data requires a different protocol in the algorithm that is being used. Jerome Fine From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 9 22:40:30 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 04:40:30 +0100 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013a01d1aa6d$b31c0450$19540cf0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Swift > Griggs > Sent: 09 May 2016 22:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? > > > I figure I'm good for about eighty hours or so of reading and fooling around > with electronics before I'll want to move onto a different hobby for a while (I > rotate through a whole bunch). That's my normal MO. So, I'm wondering > what kind of skills I could build with that time, once I get started. I'd love to > hear if anyone has suggestions for how to use my time wisely to learn skills > that would be most useful for working on older machines (mid 80's to late > 90's is my focus as far as a hardware bandpass). You don't list being able to repair power supplies below. I would thoroughly recommend that as a valuable skill for older machines. I don't have any great skill there either, what I do know has come from people on this list very generously helping me out. Regards Rob > > Here's what I (think) I know now: > > - Basics about electricity. Ie.. Ohms law, power vs frequency, etc.. > > - I understand basic physics ("A" in 100-level college course and two > years of high school physics, too). I actually had an excellent teacher, > too! > > - I used to do math to about a 300-400 level, but now I'm at a 100-200 > level (I can still do most algebra II, some trig, and a few other bits). > > - I understand what most analog components do (resistors, capacitors, > diodes, etc..). I can run a volt-meter, and super-basic operations with > an analog scope (checking test points and that kind of simple crap) . I > also have a rudimentary rig for soldering etc... > > - Since I'm a coder, I understand boolean logic (which I hope would help > with ICs). > > - I took a digital electronics course in college. However, it was pathetic > and it's all gone now anyway. > > I've spent most of my technical energy learning coding and sysadmin skills, > not hardware. I'm still interested in it, though. I'm most comfortable with > self-teaching via projects. Any that you folks would recommend (even if they > are for kids, I don't mind, I'm not proud) I'd love to hear about them. Books, > project kits, etc.. My goal would be able to understand 40% of what is > happening on an Amiga 500 or that level of machine. If I could do that.... > wow. fun. cool. Plus I bet I could repair many more items/problems than I > can today. > > -Swift From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon May 9 22:42:02 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 23:42:02 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <201604291805.OAA02857@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160429171934.693EB18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201604291805.OAA02857@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5731588A.8070305@compsys.to> >Mouse wrote: >Note that PDP-11 autoincrement and autodecrement exist only when >operating on pointers that are being indirected through, and even then >only when the pointers are in registers. C ++ and -- work fine on >things other than pointers, and on pointers when not indirecting >through them. > Maybe users of C and C++ don't bother, but those user who write in assembler for the PDP-11 will often take advantage of the ability of the autoincrement (and on rare occasions the autodecrement) properties of the instructions set to add (and rarely subtract) 2 and sometimes 4 within a given register: TST (R3)+ CMP (R3)+,(R3)+ CMP (R2)+,(R3)+ rather than ADD #2,R3 ADD #4,R3 ADD #2,R2 / ADD #2,R3 Naturally, the original value MUST be even and the original value in R3 can't be the address of an area in the IOPAGE which could then result in an address exception. These opportunities occur more often that would be expected and many users took advantage of a tiny reduction in the size of a program, especially in the early days when core storage was severely limited. Jerome Fine From scaron at diablonet.net Mon May 9 15:33:50 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 16:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 May 2016, Brad H wrote: > Hi there, > > > > I have a Memodyne M-80 Digital Cassette 'Computer' which, in talking to > people more experienced than me, seems to be just a digital cassette > recorder. Googling around there seems to be very little info out there, > although one paper written about their use with scientific equipment > detailed some of the bits triggered to make the recorder operate. Mine has > several cards including a Z80 CPU card and serial input/output. > > > > I was wondering if anyone out there was familiar with these and/or had a > manual? I read these were even used sometimes with SWTPC > terminals/computers, so I'd be interested to see if I can get it running. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Brad > > I found some interesting information about it in the Appendices of this technical report: http://misclab.umeoce.maine.edu/education/VisibilityLab/reports/SIO_82-27.pdf Apparently the product was used in several documented data acquisition applications over the course of the early '80s. Best, Sean From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Mon May 9 17:59:45 2016 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 15:59:45 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 'Cassette Computer' Message-ID: <182501d1aa46$7b2a7df0$717f79d0$@yahoo.ca> Hi guys, I have a Memodyne M80 'Cassette Computer'. From what I've gathered, it's basically just a digital tape drive (it has about 5 boards in it, including a Z80 board with an emprom marked '1200 baud', although from one sales doc it looks like it could have been built out to be a 'general purpose' Z80 computer. I've read these were used for a variety of purposes including SWTPC terminals like mine. What I cannot find though is any actual instruction manuals, etc that explain how to use it. I did find one PDF online as part of a university paper that described another Memodyne's system a little bit. Wondering if anyone has any info out there. It's a neat little box to look at, anyway. Many thanks, esp. to those like Chuck who were able to offer some useful advice thus far on it! :) Brad From bradhodge75 at gmail.com Tue May 10 00:10:11 2016 From: bradhodge75 at gmail.com (Brad H) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 22:10:11 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <185501d1aa7a$3b2ea620$b18bf260$@gmail.com> Yes thanks! I was looking at that. However, the model show there is slightly different than mine.. mine doesn't have the keypad on the front. It only has a power and reset key. I assume as Chuck suggested to me previously there is a way to pass commands via serial to get it to do something.. but I've not found any info on what you need. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Caron Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 1:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder On Mon, 9 May 2016, Brad H wrote: > Hi there, > > > > I have a Memodyne M-80 Digital Cassette 'Computer' which, in talking > to people more experienced than me, seems to be just a digital > cassette recorder. Googling around there seems to be very little info > out there, although one paper written about their use with scientific > equipment detailed some of the bits triggered to make the recorder > operate. Mine has several cards including a Z80 CPU card and serial input/output. > > > > I was wondering if anyone out there was familiar with these and/or had > a manual? I read these were even used sometimes with SWTPC > terminals/computers, so I'd be interested to see if I can get it running. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Brad > > I found some interesting information about it in the Appendices of this technical report: http://misclab.umeoce.maine.edu/education/VisibilityLab/reports/SIO_82-27.pd f Apparently the product was used in several documented data acquisition applications over the course of the early '80s. Best, Sean From bradhodge75 at gmail.com Tue May 10 00:10:11 2016 From: bradhodge75 at gmail.com (Brad H) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 22:10:11 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <185501d1aa7a$3b2ea620$b18bf260$@gmail.com> Yes thanks! I was looking at that. However, the model show there is slightly different than mine.. mine doesn't have the keypad on the front. It only has a power and reset key. I assume as Chuck suggested to me previously there is a way to pass commands via serial to get it to do something.. but I've not found any info on what you need. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Caron Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 1:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder On Mon, 9 May 2016, Brad H wrote: > Hi there, > > > > I have a Memodyne M-80 Digital Cassette 'Computer' which, in talking > to people more experienced than me, seems to be just a digital > cassette recorder. Googling around there seems to be very little info > out there, although one paper written about their use with scientific > equipment detailed some of the bits triggered to make the recorder > operate. Mine has several cards including a Z80 CPU card and serial input/output. > > > > I was wondering if anyone out there was familiar with these and/or had > a manual? I read these were even used sometimes with SWTPC > terminals/computers, so I'd be interested to see if I can get it running. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Brad > > I found some interesting information about it in the Appendices of this technical report: http://misclab.umeoce.maine.edu/education/VisibilityLab/reports/SIO_82-27.pd f Apparently the product was used in several documented data acquisition applications over the course of the early '80s. Best, Sean From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 10 00:23:32 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 22:23:32 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57317054.9090206@sydex.com> On 05/09/2016 01:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > I found some interesting information about it in the Appendices of > this technical report: > > http://misclab.umeoce.maine.edu/education/VisibilityLab/reports/SIO_82-27.pdf > > > > Apparently the product was used in several documented data > acquisition applications over the course of the early '80s. If you were around in, say, 1975, this box would be no mystery at all. "Glass TTYs" were getting cheaper than the mechanical sort and used less paper. The problem was what to do about the paper tape thing. That's where these boxes came in. You hooked them inline between your terminal and its host (could be a modem, or a computer or a leased line) and instead of paper tape, you could use Philips audio cassettes, which held quite a bit. I used a two-deck Techtran model that could go to 9600 bps. One deck was read/write, the other was read-only. You could, via control codes, perform copying and editing between the two decks--you could even search for a (short) string. The mechanism was two-track (clock+data). You could purchase data casettes that were better suited to saturation recording than the audio sort. CNC gear up through the 1980s often had cassette decks or paper tape readers, as did large embroidery machines. Eventually, these were replaced by boxes with floppy drives, which today, are still around, but with floppy emulators in place of floppy drives. That the Memodyne was intended to be hooked between a terminal and a host is witnessed by the two connectors--one DB25F and one DB25M on the back panel. Really, it's just that simple. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 10 01:12:52 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 23:12:52 -0700 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: <57317054.9090206@sydex.com> References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> <57317054.9090206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9e0485b6-989b-4fd4-7531-24e9b0859131@jwsss.com> On 5/9/2016 10:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/09/2016 01:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> I found some interesting information about it in the Appendices of >> this technical report: >> >> http://misclab.umeoce.maine.edu/education/VisibilityLab/reports/SIO_82-27.pdf >> >> >> >> Apparently the product was used in several documented data >> acquisition applications over the course of the early '80s. > If you were around in, say, 1975, this box would be no mystery at all. > > "Glass TTYs" were getting cheaper than the mechanical sort and used less > paper. The problem was what to do about the paper tape thing. > > That's where these boxes came in. You hooked them inline between your > terminal and its host (could be a modem, or a computer or a leased line) > and instead of paper tape, you could use Philips audio cassettes, which > held quite a bit. > > I used a two-deck Techtran model that could go to 9600 bps. One deck > was read/write, the other was read-only. You could, via control codes, > perform copying and editing between the two decks--you could even search > for a (short) string. The mechanism was two-track (clock+data). You > could purchase data casettes that were better suited to saturation > recording than the audio sort. > > CNC gear up through the 1980s often had cassette decks or paper tape > readers, as did large embroidery machines. Eventually, these were > replaced by boxes with floppy drives, which today, are still around, but > with floppy emulators in place of floppy drives. > > That the Memodyne was intended to be hooked between a terminal and a > host is witnessed by the two connectors--one DB25F and one DB25M on the > back panel. > > Really, it's just that simple. > > --Chuck > I have a couple of Columbia Data Products boxes which recorded to DC-300 type QIC tapes. They could both record and play back at up to 38k, IIRC. This is the same outfit that also made an early IBM PC compatible system. The really nifty thing about the BIOS on the CDP was that it had a binary debugger integrated into the BIOS so you could enable and use a keyboard break to stop the machine in its tracks running anywhere. But I digress. The thing that struck me about the above units was that it mentions that the tapes recorded were compatible with the TI printing terminals. IIRc there was a Silent 700 that had cassettes? Or was it the KSR version of the 800 dot matrix TI printers? Nifty units thanks Jim From mtapley at swri.edu Tue May 10 08:03:32 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 13:03:32 +0000 Subject: Memodyne M80 Digital Cassette Recorder In-Reply-To: <9e0485b6-989b-4fd4-7531-24e9b0859131@jwsss.com> References: <176501d1aa0b$50b92c50$f22b84f0$@gmail.com> <57317054.9090206@sydex.com> <9e0485b6-989b-4fd4-7531-24e9b0859131@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On May 10, 2016, at 1:12 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > IIRc there was a Silent 700 that had cassettes? Or was it the KSR version of the 800 dot matrix TI printers? I actually got to use one of these or one similar for a while: http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/TI_Silent_700_Model_733 Back in high school, while working at University of Texas Center for Space Research. We had a line from the NASA laser-ranging network which ran into the TI which recorded anything incoming onto its cassette. I?d come in in the morning, switch the TI connection to an RS-232 into the PDP-11, and play back the tape onto the ?gargantuan? hard drive, then change to a new tape and archive (put into a box) the old one. The PDP-11 would later send a week or more worth of observations to the campus CYBER to determine the orbit of whatever satellite was being tracked (usually LAGEOS, also Starlette and BE-2 (sic?).) The setup got replaced eventually by a CP/M system with 2 8? floppies (Balcones Computer Corporation, according to the box. I have never seen another one of those?.). Accustomed as I was to the 5.25? floppies on my TRS-80, I walked into the lab the day after the new CP/M box was installed - and my jaw fell open. The 8? drives just kept running! No spin-down when not being accessed! Luckily someone was there to explain that that was actually by design, I didn?t need to shut down the box to keep from wearing out the disks. Fun times. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue May 10 09:04:35 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 10:04:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <633F6BBA-B51A-4526-B693-85ABC53CF02F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1C9412BB-F8A5-45F1-86DD-2A9C44890A72@swri.edu> <633F6BBA-B51A-4526-B693-85ABC53CF02F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201605101404.KAA12864@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Another good practice is to use several carbon-composition resistors in seri$ Actually, that makes me curious. Would a piece of pencil "lead" be a workable substitute? I could imagine taking a drafting/art pencil lead (the kind that's some 2-3 mm thick) with clip-leads, one on each end. (Preferably inside some kind of container, so the connection on the HV end is not exposed.) But I don't know whether its resistance would be too high (or too low, though that seems unlikely).... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue May 10 09:16:53 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 10:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > - Since I'm a coder, I understand boolean logic (which I hope would > help with ICs). While it's an understandable point of view, especially for a coder, not all ICs are digital logic - and even for those that are, understanding non-digital-logic aspects of them can be useful. (I built an EPROM reader out of SSI TTL, and found it always read the last octet as FF even in cases where I knew better. Turned out I forgot to connect the ground pin on the EPROM to circuit power ground; provided at least one input was low, it powered the chip through the input protection diodes, but when all connected pins were high - and all the non-address inputs that weren't high were tied to the ground pin - then all outputs perforce were too. But that failure mode would have been inexplicable if my mental model of the thing had been an ideal logic device.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 10 09:53:02 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 08:53:02 -0600 (MDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2016, Mouse wrote: > While it's an understandable point of view, especially for a coder, not > all ICs are digital logic - and even for those that are, understanding > non-digital-logic aspects of them can be useful. Right now I've started looking at the textbooks & lessons here: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/ Volume IV is about digital. However, I'm finding quite a few topics in the previous books are things I'm not strong in, either. I get the feeling one needs to have quite mastered analog before moving to digital. So, I completely believe you. > (I built an EPROM reader out of SSI TTL, and found it always read the > last octet as FF even in cases where I knew better. Once I brush up on theory a bit, I'll have to find me a project like that. -Swift From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 09:59:18 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 14:59:18 +0000 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > > - Since I'm a coder, I understand boolean logic (which I hope would > > help with ICs). > > While it's an understandable point of view, especially for a coder, not > all ICs are digital logic - and even for those that are, understanding > non-digital-logic aspects of them can be useful. (I built an EPROM Remember one of Don Vonada's laws 'Digital Circuits are made from Analogue Parts' In my experience the most complex part of classic digital design (that is interconnecting physical componets, which may or may not be ICs) is the wiring. For anything of moderate speed you have to design the interconnections as transmission lines, know how to terminate them and the like. You have to understand that no connection has 0 impedance (0 resistance I can accept, but not 0 inductance or 0 capacitance to other connections). So what appears to be a solid power or ground connection may have different voltages along it. Getting back to the original request, my main worry is the 80 hour time limit. I am far from being the most knowledgeable person here, and perhaps I am a very slow learner, but I must have spent over 80 _thousand_ hours learning electronics and related subjeccts. And FWIW I am still learning. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 10:04:21 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 15:04:21 +0000 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <201605101404.KAA12864@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201605092121.RAA03738@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1C9412BB-F8A5-45F1-86DD-2A9C44890A72@swri.edu> <633F6BBA-B51A-4526-B693-85ABC53CF02F@cs.ubc.ca>, <201605101404.KAA12864@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > > Another good practice is to use several carbon-composition resistors in seri$ > > Actually, that makes me curious. Would a piece of pencil "lead" be a > workable substitute? I could imagine taking a drafting/art pencil lead > (the kind that's some 2-3 mm thick) with clip-leads, one on each end. > (Preferably inside some kind of container, so the connection on the HV > end is not exposed.) > > But I don't know whether its resistance would be too high (or too low, > though that seems unlikely).... Actually pencil lead is suprisingly low resistance. Try sharpening a pencil at both ends and measuring it. When I was younger, I carefully cut and split a pencil apart lengthways. This left me with the lead in a trough of wood. A wire wrapped firmly round one end and a wire wrapped round that I could slide along made a reasonable varialble resistor. I can remember using it with a battery (probably about 4.5V to 6V) and a torch (flashlight) bulb as a dimmer, so the resistance can't be that high. The resistance does depend on the grade of pencil. The more 'black' it is. the lower the resistance. So a 6B has low restance, a 6H high, Of course we are all talking about rods of graphite, not the metal lead, right? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 10:10:28 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 15:10:28 +0000 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: [VT101 with vertical linearity problems] > Yes indeed. Fortunately this one wielded under my trimmer and all is > properly aligned now. All I need to do now is troubleshoot the keyboard > circuit which I hope is the same as the VT102... In general it is a bad idea to cure faults by adjustments. Unless somebody has been twiddling, these adjustments only drift if some other component is failing. They are there to initially set the circuit up for the components that are used, or in some cases, particularly in delta-gun colour CRTs, to correct for external conditions, such as magnetic fields. My guess is a capacitor is failing. So far you are still within the range of the adjusment, but it may well get worse. I don't know which video board you have (there are at least 3 different ones), but if it's the one on pages 54-58 of the VT100 printset on bitsavers (the VT100 and VT101 use the same video board), then check C318 and C319 for a start. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 10:14:49 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 15:14:49 +0000 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Yes indeed. Fortunately this one wielded under my trimmer and all is > properly aligned now. All I need to do now is troubleshoot the keyboard > circuit which I hope is the same as the VT102... Forgot to mention... The keyboard itself is the same on the VT100, VT101, VT102, etc. The interface circuit on the main logic board is much the same too, so the info in the technical manual is of relevance. If you can stick one of my hand-drawn diagrams, I have reverse-enegineered the VT101 logic board and PSU board. Keyboard and video you can get from the VT100 printset, and I couldn't find a mains input bracket to trace out (maybe sometime) but that is pretty simple anyway. If you want the VT101 board diagrams just ask me nicely. -tony From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 10 10:25:21 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 09:25:21 -0600 (MDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2016, tony duell wrote: > Remember one of Don Vonada's laws 'Digital Circuits are made from > Analogue Parts' That's an interesting saying. > So what appears to be a solid power or ground connection may have > different voltages along it. Those types of nuances and inconsistances are always frustrating but I understand it's the nature of working in the real world, rather than software. :-) > Getting back to the original request, my main worry is the 80 hour time > limit. Oh, that's just about the amount of time it takes before I rotate to the next hobby for a while. However, I find that the better I get a things, the more I enjoy them and then the rotations get longer for those hobbies. I just know that eighty hours is about as much as I can spend just doing pure learning before my mind needs a break for a while. It's not really a "limit". It's more my "bite size". > I am far from being the most knowledgeable person here, and perhaps I am > a very slow learner, but I must have spent over 80 _thousand_ hours > learning electronics and related subjeccts. And FWIW I am still > learning. I hear ya. There is nearly infinite depth there, no doubt. I just want to build up to a basic skill level that gets me functional in a few areas I care about. -Swift From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 10:27:55 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 15:27:55 +0000 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , Message-ID: > > Remember one of Don Vonada's laws 'Digital Circuits are made from > > Analogue Parts' > > That's an interesting saying. Maurice Wilkes (as in EDSAC) once told me 'A digital circuit is like a tame animal. An analogue circuit is like a wild animal. Every so often the digital circuit decides to go back to the wild' :-) Another of Don Vonada's laws is 'There is no such thing as ground'. This has 2 meanings. The first is the obvious one that a voltmeter has 2 leads and it is up to you to choose a reference point to measure voltages with respect to, The other is that, as I said before, any ground connection has impedance (it's the inductance that is troublesome normally) so that points (say IC pins) that are shown as grounded may actually have a voltage difference between them. -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 10 10:47:14 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 11:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8 core memory board Message-ID: <20160510154714.2EA0D18C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> FAYI: http://www.ebay.com/itm/262419353233 DEC H219a & G649 8K X 12 Core Memory Stack Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 10 14:12:12 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 20:12:12 +0100 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/05/2016 16:10, "tony duell" wrote: > [VT101 with vertical linearity problems] > >> Yes indeed. Fortunately this one wielded under my trimmer and all is >> properly aligned now. All I need to do now is troubleshoot the keyboard >> circuit which I hope is the same as the VT102... > > In general it is a bad idea to cure faults by adjustments. Unless somebody > has been twiddling, these adjustments only drift if some other component is > failing. They are there to initially set the circuit up for the components > that > are used, or in some cases, particularly in delta-gun colour CRTs, to correct > for external conditions, such as magnetic fields. > > My guess is a capacitor is failing. So far you are still within the range of > the > adjusment, but it may well get worse. I don't know which video board you > have (there are at least 3 different ones), but if it's the one on pages 54-58 > of the VT100 printset on bitsavers (the VT100 and VT101 use the same > video board), then check C318 and C319 for a start. It's the same board as the VT102, just checked. I can easily check the caps. Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 14:18:13 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 19:18:13 +0000 Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: [Your VT101 video board] > > It's the same board as the VT102, just checked. I can easily check the caps. >From what I remember there are at least 3 different video boards found in VT1xx's and any could appear in any model terminal. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 10 14:26:21 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 20:26:21 +0100 Subject: VT1x1 keyboard (was Re: VT101 screen adjustment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/05/2016 16:14, "tony duell" wrote: > The keyboard itself is the same on the VT100, VT101, VT102, etc. The interface > circuit on the main logic board is much the same too, so the info in the > technical manual is of relevance. I'm reading that in moments of quietness since the VT101 is showing random key decoding no matter which keyboard is plugged in. It only does it during keypresses so it doesn't seem to be a random bit setting itself. If I press and hold for example 's' I'll get several 's' on screen then something else will happen, then more 's'. +5V on the board is at +4.96V and the VT POSTs correctly so it's not an obvious RAM glitch, and it doesn't seem to be a warmup problem either. > If you can stick one of my hand-drawn diagrams, I have reverse-enegineered > the VT101 logic board and PSU board. Keyboard and video you can get from > the VT100 printset, and I couldn't find a mains input bracket to trace out > (maybe > sometime) but that is pretty simple anyway. If you want the VT101 board > diagrams just ask me nicely. I always ask nicely don't I? :) Drawings would be excellent please, and in return I can send pics of any internals you need including a mains input bracket. I had the VT131 one in bits on Sunday to fix the power switch which had disintegrated in the same way my VT102 did. Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue May 10 14:33:54 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 15:33:54 -0400 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , Message-ID: <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> tony duell wrote: > Another of Don Vonada's laws is 'There is no such > thing as ground'. My father is a civil engineer. When I was a little kid, he was in the US Air Force. We would frequently go to the runway snack bar, get ice cream and watch the B-52s do "touch-and-go" landing practice. The plane's wings would "flap". It raised the hair on the back of my neck. My dad explained that, if they didn't flex, the wings would break off. After a while, I understood, intellectually. It still "gave me the willies". Later I had a similar experience when I was with him in a tall building and realized that it was "waving in the wind". Same thing, if it didn't flex, it would fall. > The other is that, as I said before, any ground > connection has impedance (it's the inductance that > is troublesome normally) so that points (say IC pins) > that are shown as grounded may actually have a > voltage difference between them. If I think about it too much, this gives me the willies, the same way. Bill S. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 14:39:36 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 19:39:36 +0000 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , , <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: > > My father is a civil engineer. When I was a little > kid, he was in the US Air Force. We would frequently > go to the runway snack bar, get ice cream and watch > the B-52s do "touch-and-go" landing practice. The > plane's wings would "flap". It raised the hair on > the back of my neck. My dad explained that, if they > didn't flex, the wings would break off. After a > while, I understood, intellectually. It still "gave > me the willies". Later I had a similar experience > when I was with him in a tall building and realized > that it was "waving in the wind". Same thing, if it > didn't flex, it would fall. That reminds me of the following joke : There is an airline passenger. During some particularly turbulent conditions he looks out the window and sees the plane's wings flexing. He looks very worried. The flight attendant comes over to him and tries to comfort him by saying 'Our pilots are fully trained to fly in conditions like this. It's only turbulence, it's quite normal' He replies 'You don't undertand. I work for Boeing. I am one of the men who designed this aircraft. The wings are not supposed to flex like that.' > > The other is that, as I said before, any ground > > connection has impedance (it's the inductance that > > is troublesome normally) so that points (say IC pins) > > that are shown as grounded may actually have a > > voltage difference between them. > > If I think about it too much, this gives me the > willies, the same way. It's a very real problem, it's the main reason for decoupling capacitors which provide a local source of power with a low impedance connection (as they are so close to the IC). That's why I said that most times the interconnections are the hard part of a digital circuit. -tony From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 10 15:03:44 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 14:03:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , , <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2016, tony duell wrote: > It's a very real problem, it's the main reason for decoupling capacitors > which provide a local source of power with a low impedance connection > (as they are so close to the IC). It seems like there is a lot of "fiddling" with those types issues and getting good at doing so is part of the process of getting profecient with component level troubleshooting. That's why working with electronics "kits" (ie.. kit based projects) is about my speed right now. In most of those cases, folks have worked out the kinks involving connection issues, but I'm still just doing analog stuff. I have no idea how much it'll matter when I go to learn a bit about digital. However, that quote about digital circuits being made from analog physical bits seems like good foreshadowing. So, we'll see. I'm still playing along with projects from a kids' Elenco kit. I'm having fun with timers and making "bleeps and bloops". I'm also using it to try and figure out how about 5% of my borrowed ocilliscope works. I've got the manual, it's just figuring out what everything means is a bit challenging right now. So, it helps teach me how to calibrate the darn thing to just sit on something that looks like a sine wave etc... -Swift From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 10 15:46:06 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 16:46:06 -0400 Subject: VT1x1 keyboard (was Re: VT101 screen adjustment) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > ... I had the VT131 one in bits on Sunday to fix the power switch which > had disintegrated in the same way my VT102 did. Yeah... I had that exact problem last year with a VT100. I'd say that of several DEC terminals I've repaired, the two most common things were the EIA receivers (static/lightning, most likely) and the power switch. Distant third is video problems. -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 10 14:48:57 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 20:48:57 +0100 Subject: Non-DEC keyboard lookalikes (was: VT1xx stuff) Message-ID: Since I now have a couple of these and google is coming up blank-ish has anyone come across a VT keyboard, possibly from a Plessey PT100 style terminal, that is 99% VT100 in shape, colour and key layout? Even the 6mm jack plug though I know Apple used that too on the Lisa. I found a message thread from here in 2002 about the VT131 and what sounds like an identical keyboard but aside from 'don't knows' and a mention of Plessey nothing else was found and it descended into chat about scanning Microfiche. I toyed briefly with the thought that I'd ended up with the VT and keyboard of those messages but the OP of that was in Champagne IL. Earlier tonight I dismantled one of them in the hope of seeing a manufacturer or any sort of branding but nada. There's a 2716 EPROM marked 'PKB00' which I dumped but there's nothing of note in there either. Maybe the pic will help, maybe not since you'll think 'that's a VT keyboard' :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue May 10 16:25:42 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 18:25:42 -0300 Subject: News about hpmuseum.net In-Reply-To: References: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <573251D6.6090902@gmail.com> The following was posted on hpmuseum.org this morning: *RE: Jon Johnston Passes * As an update to the sad news of Jon Johnston's death, I can advise that the HP museum and the hpmuseum.net website he built will be continued and maintained for the foreseeable future. Over the last 8 months I have worked with Jon in restoring items from his collection of equipment and, among a range of items, recently restored an HP2116A computer to working order - one of only two Jon was aware of in the world and the only one that's operational. At this stage we have not been able to access the website and put any notices or updates but that should be addressed shortly. Jon's wife has asked me to look after the museum and website for the foreseeable future and as much as possible, continue to develop the museum in line with Jon's vision and objectives. As a short background, I joined HP Australia in 1982 as a Customer Engineer maintaining HP3000s, HP250s, all peripherals, terminals etc. I stayed with HP for over 26 years (including 5 years in Palo Alto) in a range of Services roles and have many fond memories of the company and the people I worked with. While my ability to invest time into the museum is more limited than Jon's, I hope to honour both his memory and the legacy of the 'old HP' by keeping the museum going as best I can, hopefully with help from the HP interest groups across the world. David Collins From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 10 17:09:57 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 22:09:57 +0000 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , , <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> , Message-ID: In order to trouble shoot, one needs to know how it is suppose to work. This often means studying schematics, data sheets and sometimes even app-notes. Avoid the replacing everything, until it starts working, type trouble shooting. As well as being a waste of time, it is more likely that you will introduce new problems in the process. Don't replace a part unless you can prove it to yourself that it is the most likely source of the error. This usually means running experiments. Since you are a coder, I find that anything with a working processor can be used as a self debugging tool. EPROMs or front panels are great for trouble shooting. Simple test are best. Many fear power supplies. Linears are the easiest because they are always some form of feedback loop. You just follow the loop until you find two points that are opposite directions from where the input point predicts the output point should be( goes back to knowing how it should work). If you can't find a schematic on the web, draw one. As a minimum, have a block diagram. I'm sure you have heard of the "scientific method". Trouble shooting is just that. It is the repetitive process of making an educated guess as to the source of the problem and then having an experiment to prove it either true or false. Try to have experiments that are conclusive. This is why I don't much care for the piggy back RAM test. It may or may not tell you that there is a problem with the RAM that you are checking. Learn to use a two channel oscilloscope with trigger and delayed sweep. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Swift Griggs Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 1:03:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? On Tue, 10 May 2016, tony duell wrote: > It's a very real problem, it's the main reason for decoupling capacitors > which provide a local source of power with a low impedance connection > (as they are so close to the IC). It seems like there is a lot of "fiddling" with those types issues and getting good at doing so is part of the process of getting profecient with component level troubleshooting. That's why working with electronics "kits" (ie.. kit based projects) is about my speed right now. In most of those cases, folks have worked out the kinks involving connection issues, but I'm still just doing analog stuff. I have no idea how much it'll matter when I go to learn a bit about digital. However, that quote about digital circuits being made from analog physical bits seems like good foreshadowing. So, we'll see. I'm still playing along with projects from a kids' Elenco kit. I'm having fun with timers and making "bleeps and bloops". I'm also using it to try and figure out how about 5% of my borrowed ocilliscope works. I've got the manual, it's just figuring out what everything means is a bit challenging right now. So, it helps teach me how to calibrate the darn thing to just sit on something that looks like a sine wave etc... -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Tue May 10 17:43:00 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 16:43:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , , <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> , Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2016, dwight wrote: > In order to trouble shoot, one needs to know how it is suppose to work. > This often means studying schematics, data sheets and sometimes even > app-notes. Cool. I'm good on this. I love schematics when I can get them. I can't always figure out what I'm looking at but it sure helps vs looking at a board! > Avoid the replacing everything, until it starts working, type trouble > shooting. As well as being a waste of time, it is more likely that you > will introduce new problems in the process. Don't replace a part unless > you can prove it to yourself that it is the most likely source of the > error. This strikes me as very good advice. I use the same type of mentality when I troubleshoot computer components and servers. I'm sure it's just as sound when dealing with components. > This usually means running experiments. Since you are a coder, I > find that anything with a working processor can be used as a self > debugging tool. I love that phrase "Self debugging tool." > EPROMs or front panels are great for trouble shooting. Simple test are > best. I'm a Unix guy. Simple is almost always better. :-) > Many fear power supplies. Linears are the easiest because they are > always some form of feedback loop. You just follow the loop until you > find two points that are opposite directions from where the input point > predicts the output point should be( goes back to knowing how it should > work). Okay, I'm one of those with a little fear of power supplies. It's little because I'm still ignorant (*grin*). Funny you should mention power, I'm studying this section on DC metering to build up to learning more about power circuits: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-8/what-is-a-meter/ BTW, I'm growing pretty fond of this instruction on allaboutcircuits. They have some really great material with excellent explanations & drawings. > If you can't find a schematic on the web, draw one. As a minimum, > have a block diagram. I keep reading that. I'm taking it to heart, mainly because I can barely keep up with one part of a circuit before having to move on and figure out a different part. Writing it down is the only way I could do it anyway. :) > I'm sure you have heard of the "scientific method". Trouble shooting is > just that. It is the repetitive process of making an educated guess as > to the source of the problem and then having an experiment to prove it > either true or false. Try to have experiments that are conclusive. That's good advice, in general, I think. I try to do the same with any type of troubleshooting. Even the Monte Carlo method (which I think rocks) is usually framed as an controlled experiment. > Learn to use a two channel oscilloscope with trigger and delayed sweep. Great! I've been looking into that. I'm guessing that helps when you are trying to look at a detailed edge/level and you can overlay the two wave forms? Also do you use variable holdoff much in real life? I'm reading about how it works, and it sounds useful in theory (and if I buy a scope, it *sounds* good). However, at my level, I'm not sure I'd ever use it. It just keeps coming up a lot when reading about scopes. -Swift From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 10 21:35:54 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 21:35:54 -0500 Subject: "Retro Repair" key electronics skills? In-Reply-To: <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: , <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <57329A8A.3000409@pico-systems.com> On 05/10/2016 02:33 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> The other is that, as I said before, any ground >> connection has impedance (it's the inductance that >> is troublesome normally) so that points (say IC pins) >> that are shown as grounded may actually have a >> voltage difference between them. > If I think about it too much, this gives me the > willies, the same way. > > I have a 3500 Lb Sheldon lathe. During rebuilding of it, I got a very sensitive electronic level, to aid in making sure the bed was reground straight. I found that when I walked from one end of the lathe to the other, it tilted about one arc second. That was my weight deflecting the concrete floor of my basement, causing the lathe to tilt slightly. All structures, including the earth, deflect under load. Jon From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 10 18:14:05 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 00:14:05 +0100 Subject: FW: Non-DEC keyboard lookalikes (was: VT1xx stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oops, I forgot the list doesn't allow attachments! http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/nonDECkeyboards.jpg A -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? ------ Forwarded Message From: Adrian Graham Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 20:48:57 +0100 To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Conversation: Non-DEC keyboard lookalikes (was: VT1xx stuff) Subject: Non-DEC keyboard lookalikes (was: VT1xx stuff) Since I now have a couple of these and google is coming up blank-ish has anyone come across a VT keyboard, possibly from a Plessey PT100 style terminal, that is 99% VT100 in shape, colour and key layout? Even the 6mm jack plug though I know Apple used that too on the Lisa. I found a message thread from here in 2002 about the VT131 and what sounds like an identical keyboard but aside from 'don't knows' and a mention of Plessey nothing else was found and it descended into chat about scanning Microfiche. I toyed briefly with the thought that I'd ended up with the VT and keyboard of those messages but the OP of that was in Champagne IL. Earlier tonight I dismantled one of them in the hope of seeing a manufacturer or any sort of branding but nada. There's a 2716 EPROM marked 'PKB00' which I dumped but there's nothing of note in there either. Maybe the pic will help, maybe not since you'll think 'that's a VT keyboard' :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? ------ End of Forwarded Message From spacewar at gmail.com Wed May 11 00:47:14 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 23:47:14 -0600 Subject: Pascal/8002 or other compilers for Tek 8002 dev. system? Message-ID: Does anyone have information about (or a copy of) the Pascal Development Co. Pascal/8002 Universal Program Development Package, that ran on the Tektronix 8002 development system? The only thing I've found is a blurb in Computerworld 1979-08-13 p. 56. Alternatively, I'm very interested in any other compiler that ran on the 8002 and produced p-code or bytecode, or any such compiler running on ANY machine which Tektronix may have used for product development. They might well have done cross-development from a mini or mainframe, but I'm guessing that they probably used their own 8002 system. Context: the Tektronix DAS 9100 logic analyzer is Z80 based, and contains many ROMs, mostly 8KB MK36000 series masked ROMs and MCM68764 EPROMs, but only one ROM appears to contain much actual Z80 code. That 8K ROM is labeled "INTERP" and contains a bytecode interpreter. Apparently all the other ROMs are full of bytecode. The bytecode does not match the UCSD p-code nor the ETHZ P4 p-code. I've started disassembling it, but haven't yet learned too much. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 11 01:39:40 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 07:39:40 +0100 Subject: Anyone Have a Working AlphaStation 200 to Run Some Tests For Me? Message-ID: I can?t remember if I already asked, but I need to find a working example and ask it?s owner to run some tests on it for me to help me diagnose a fault on mine. Ideally the machine would be running VMS. Thanks Rob Sent from my Windows 10 phone From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed May 11 03:19:40 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 10:19:40 +0200 Subject: Non-DEC keyboard lookalikes (was: VT1xx stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160511081940.GA7691@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 08:48:57PM +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > Since I now have a couple of these and google is coming up blank-ish has > anyone come across a VT keyboard, possibly from a Plessey PT100 style > terminal, that is 99% VT100 in shape, colour and key layout? Even the 6mm > jack plug though I know Apple used that too on the Lisa. I don't have my plessey vt100 clone anymore. But the shade of blue of your keyboards in your picture looks very familiar. I think I know someone who has a plessey still... /P From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed May 11 03:22:23 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 10:22:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VT101 screen adjustment In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2016, tony duell wrote: >> Yes indeed. Fortunately this one wielded under my trimmer and all is >> properly aligned now. All I need to do now is troubleshoot the keyboard >> circuit which I hope is the same as the VT102... > > In general it is a bad idea to cure faults by adjustments. Unless somebody > has been twiddling, these adjustments only drift if some other component is [...] > My guess is a capacitor is failing. So far you are still within the range of the [...] The most common failure in such alignments (like vertical linearity) is dirt/dust/oxide on the wiper of the adjustment potentiometer, so just turing it back and forth usually cures the problem. If not, *then* there's another problem. Christian From applecorey at optonline.net Wed May 11 06:05:52 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 07:05:52 -0400 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? Message-ID: I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 Thanks, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Wed May 11 06:11:03 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 21:11:03 +1000 Subject: Manual for Remex RRJ8000 serial paper tape reader circa 1979? Message-ID: <9CA8289D-1106-48D2-B35C-2DC5076F2FA2@retrocomputingtasmania.com> If anyone knows the dip switch settings, I'd be grateful to learn them please or even better a manual. It doesn't match any of the units currently on bitsavers. Compared to the more common Remex units this one is quite compact. I tried some test tapes and it produces a regular pattern differing only in a couple of bits, I think it is indicating parity errors, I'm guessing one of the dip-switch settings controls parity. From radiotest at juno.com Wed May 11 06:24:34 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 07:24:34 -0400 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511072332.03e0f370@juno.com> At 07:05 AM 5/11/2016, Corey Cohen wrote: >Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 I used to run Mix C under CP/M 2.2 on my Kaypros. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed May 11 09:14:23 2016 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 10:14:23 -0400 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511072332.03e0f370@juno.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511072332.03e0f370@juno.com> Message-ID: I think I still have the Mix C floppies kicking around somewhere. I remember that they were in a format manipulable by the Commodore 1571 floppy drive, operating in some compatibility mode. On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 07:05 AM 5/11/2016, Corey Cohen wrote: > > >Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 > > I used to run Mix C under CP/M 2.2 on my Kaypros. > > Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > > From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed May 11 09:27:11 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 09:27:11 -0500 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0BD9A85C-40AC-4C23-8061-862BB4192A67@gmail.com> Seems like there was an Aztec C compiler. Sent from my iPhone > On May 11, 2016, at 6:05 AM, Corey Cohen wrote: > > I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 > > Thanks, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? From emu at e-bbes.com Wed May 11 09:33:11 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 16:33:11 +0200 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160511163311.3kmi4i3qyows8go8@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Corey Cohen : > I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can > run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 http://www.z80.eu/c-compiler.html hope it helps From scaron at diablonet.net Wed May 11 10:57:03 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 11:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511072332.03e0f370@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > I think I still have the Mix C floppies kicking around somewhere. I > remember that they were in a format manipulable by the Commodore 1571 > floppy drive, operating in some compatibility mode. > > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > >> At 07:05 AM 5/11/2016, Corey Cohen wrote: >> >>> Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 >> >> I used to run Mix C under CP/M 2.2 on my Kaypros. >> >> Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >> Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 >> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html >> >> > Mix C! Now that brings back memories! First C compiler I had access to as a kid ... under DOS ... there was a DOS version, too, IIRC. It sufficed until I figured out how to acquire Minix and get it installed on my old Toshiba T3100 ;) Best, Sean From radiotest at juno.com Wed May 11 12:55:22 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 13:55:22 -0400 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511072332.03e0f370@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160511134734.03ef2620@juno.com> At 11:57 AM 5/11/2016, Sean Caron wrote: >Mix C! Now that brings back memories! First C compiler I had access to as a kid ... It was the first C compiler that I had access to, but I was no kid - I had taken my first college programming course about 25 years earlier. To be fair, until I got my first CP/M machine I hadn't written any programs in years as I had been mainly doing hardware maintenance on IBM System 36 and DEC PDP-8 minis. I still have the Kaypro that I ran Mix C on, and still have the Mix C as well. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 11 13:29:29 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Corey Cohen wrote: > I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 For casually playing with the language, rather than serious projects, consider BDS C, by Leor Zolman. Source code is available. From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 11 13:44:32 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 11:44:32 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek In-Reply-To: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 4/7/2016 1:07 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > A friend has a large set of paper tape which seems to be from a DG > User group (not sure about that, but label on box sort of implies that). Thanks to Erik Baigar, I have gotten his paper tape reader and have made one pass on reading the tapes. The originals belong to Sherman Foy. Also Charles Anthony made a pass at writing a video based reader (which I still would love to see). There are notes on this dropbox share of the data. I would like to host it with either bitsavers or Jay or both when I get cleaned up versions of the tapes. Any suggestions about running this, or what it is, or corrections to my reading (see notes.txt in the share) would be appreciated. Also if someone would be so kind as to give a nice writeup of how to get the goods to run this on simh or some other accessible simulator I'd like to add that to the info. There are photos of the tape and the reader as well. I have not documented the labels on the tapes as of yet, but one of the tape files has a better explanation of the tapes than that anyway. I will document the tape info when I finish the reading process. Thanks Jim https://www.dropbox.com/sh/18q1hpfknbeviip/AAAFgRrBXgygAFfNbBuPzXGva?dl=0 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 11 13:36:06 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 19:36:06 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <037101d1abb3$fb5125b0$f1f37110$@gmail.com> Folks, I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. It looks to me like there are two CPU's in there, a console card, RX02 Controller, Memory and Bus Terminator. I have done lots of searching and there doesn't seem to be a simple list of what can run on it, assuming I can find some RX02 floppy disks to go with it.. Any pointers to documentation? Clues on how to arrange the cards in the box. Dave Wade From chrise at pobox.com Wed May 11 14:06:47 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 14:06:47 -0500 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160511190647.GF3147@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (05/11/2016 at 07:05AM -0400), Corey Cohen wrote: > I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 There was also Walt Bilofsky's C/80 from Software Toolworks. This was popular on CP/M and HDOS on the Heath H8 and H89 systems. http://www.toolworks.com/ http://heathkit.garlanger.com/library/TheSoftwareToolworks/software/C80.shtml http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/software/software%20toolworks/software/Software%20toolworks%20C-80%20C%20compiler%201982.pdf -- Chris Elmquist From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed May 11 14:12:31 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:12:31 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <037101d1abb3$fb5125b0$f1f37110$@gmail.com> References: <037101d1abb3$fb5125b0$f1f37110$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 2:36 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > Folks, > > I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. It looks > to me like there are two CPU's in there, a console card, RX02 Controller, > Memory and Bus Terminator. I have done lots of searching and there doesn't > seem to be a simple list of what can run on it, assuming I can find some > RX02 floppy disks to go with it.. Any pointers to documentation? Clues on > how to arrange the cards in the box. > > Dave Wade > > > Dave - Please provide the list of the cards installed, and the type of mounting box and power supply model. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 11 14:30:44 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160511193044.C14F518C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade > I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only the 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) > It looks to me like there are two CPU's in there Well, as Bill said, send us the 'M-numbers' (on the board handles), and we'll tell you what you've got - but multi-CPU PDP11's basically don't exist (with some rare exceptions), and certainly not in a VAX console. So I'm not sure what you have there. > and Bus Terminator Actually, that's the 'QBUS out' connector card; the way the PDP-11 runs the VAX is that there's a card in the 780 CPU which is on the QBUS (there are cables that run from the QBUS out to that card), and it allows the -11 to totally control the 780 CPU. > I have done lots of searching and there doesn't seem to be a simple > list of what can run on it Well, nothing that needs memory management - at least, as it sits. You could swap out the CPU card for an 11/23 or 11/73, then you could run an OS that needs memory management (Unix, or one of the DEC OS's that needs it - I know nothing of the DEC OS's for the -11, someone else here will, though). And your backplane is probably so-called Q18, limited to 256KB of memory, but that's easy to upgrade. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 11 14:45:46 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:45:46 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20160511193044.C14F518C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160511193044.C14F518C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> > On May 11, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Dave Wade > >> I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. > > If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only the > 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models specifically. > ... >> I have done lots of searching and there doesn't seem to be a simple >> list of what can run on it > > Well, nothing that needs memory management - at least, as it sits. You could > swap out the CPU card for an 11/23 or 11/73, then you could run an OS that > needs memory management (Unix, or one of the DEC OS's that needs it - I know > nothing of the DEC OS's for the -11, someone else here will, though). And > your backplane is probably so-called Q18, limited to 256KB of memory, but > that's easy to upgrade. The 11/03 should run RT-11 nicely. Limited RSX, possibly; I don't know those details. RSTS V4 also runs on unmapped PDP-11 systems, but that OS only supports Unibus machines and a very limited set of disk controllers (which doesn't include floppies). paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 11 15:13:02 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 13:13:02 -0700 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5733924E.6070702@sydex.com> On 05/11/2016 11:29 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 11 May 2016, Corey Cohen wrote: >> I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I >> can run on my Sol-20 with CP/M 1.4 > > For casually playing with the language, rather than serious > projects, consider BDS C, by Leor Zolman. Source code is > available. If you're just goofing around, I think there was a version of Tiny C for the x80--I don't recall if it required a Z80 ISA or not. There were also cross-compilers. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 11 15:40:37 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 20:40:37 +0000 Subject: Data General Nova Star Trek In-Reply-To: References: <5706BDEA.9070803@jwsss.com>, Message-ID: Also watch out for rubber bands. Before turning to hard crunchy stuff that yo can brush off, they go through a gooey stage that can dry up and stick layers together. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jwsmobile Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 11:44:32 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Data General Nova Star Trek On 4/7/2016 1:07 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > A friend has a large set of paper tape which seems to be from a DG > User group (not sure about that, but label on box sort of implies that). Thanks to Erik Baigar, I have gotten his paper tape reader and have made one pass on reading the tapes. The originals belong to Sherman Foy. Also Charles Anthony made a pass at writing a video based reader (which I still would love to see). There are notes on this dropbox share of the data. I would like to host it with either bitsavers or Jay or both when I get cleaned up versions of the tapes. Any suggestions about running this, or what it is, or corrections to my reading (see notes.txt in the share) would be appreciated. Also if someone would be so kind as to give a nice writeup of how to get the goods to run this on simh or some other accessible simulator I'd like to add that to the info. There are photos of the tape and the reader as well. I have not documented the labels on the tapes as of yet, but one of the tape files has a better explanation of the tapes than that anyway. I will document the tape info when I finish the reading process. Thanks Jim https://www.dropbox.com/sh/18q1hpfknbeviip/AAAFgRrBXgygAFfNbBuPzXGva?dl=0 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 11 15:53:20 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 21:53:20 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> References: <20160511193044.C14F518C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> Message-ID: I thought I had attached a pic of the card layouts, I assume these are deleted... Here is a link... Sorry it's long. https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=277A0739F125010E!88626&authkey=!AEjo1kJ4FKG5jZk&v=3&ithint=photo%2cJPG Cards are M7264, M7940,M9400ye M8044ee,m7946 M8192,empty. Also have loose grant card.... On 11 May 2016 20:46, "Paul Koning" wrote: > > > > On May 11, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > >> From: Dave Wade > > > >> I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. > > > > If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only the > > 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) > > Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models specifically. > > > ... > >> I have done lots of searching and there doesn't seem to be a simple > >> list of what can run on it > > > > Well, nothing that needs memory management - at least, as it sits. You could > > swap out the CPU card for an 11/23 or 11/73, then you could run an OS that > > needs memory management (Unix, or one of the DEC OS's that needs it - I know > > nothing of the DEC OS's for the -11, someone else here will, though). And > > your backplane is probably so-called Q18, limited to 256KB of memory, but > > that's easy to upgrade. > > The 11/03 should run RT-11 nicely. Limited RSX, possibly; I don't know those details. RSTS V4 also runs on unmapped PDP-11 systems, but that OS only supports Unibus machines and a very limited set of disk controllers (which doesn't include floppies). > > paul > > From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 11 16:10:19 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:10:19 -0600 (MDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" Message-ID: Has anyone used a 3D printer to make a case for their old machine ? I've started drafting an SGI Indy "skin" in Sketch, but it's just a box right now, nothing cool. I've noticed and been somewhat inspired by these: I think this one is very clever. The guy used 3D printed parts just to sort of "glue" the heatsink and lucite/glass together. It looks great. http://technabob.com/blog/2012/12/27/diy-silent-computer/ This guy made one for an Intel NUC: http://tinyurl.com/k9xpb9s This person used plexiglass to overcome print size issues I'm guessing: http://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12671 Here is one for a Pi that looks like a NES http://technabob.com/blog/2014/04/27/3d-printed-raspberry-pi-nes-case/ This one is also for a Pi, but is a bit like a laptop, too: http://tinyurl.com/z8rgrmd A C64 custom job: https://3dprint.com/39764/3d-print-commodore-case/ Obviously, this kind of thing would be great for SGIs, which are mostly made to accomidate plastic covers on metal skids (ie.. "skins"). -Swift From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 11 16:20:35 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 22:20:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <20160511193044.C14F518C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1249580577.1016779.1463001635540.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 11 May 2016 at 21:53 Dave Wade wrote: > > > I thought I had attached a pic of the card layouts, I assume these are > deleted... Here is a link... Sorry it's long. > > > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=277A0739F125010E!88626&authkey=!AEjo1kJ4FKG5jZk&v=3&ithint=photo%2cJPG > > Cards are > M7264, > M7940,M9400ye > M8044ee,m7946 > M8192,empty. > > Also have loose grant card.... > I collected this machine on Dave's behalf. The seller said it was indeed out of a 780. I got the impression the 11/23 card was just a spare he had that he put in the enclosure, not really part of the original system. Regards Rob > > > On 11 May 2016 20:46, "Paul Koning" wrote: > > > > > > > On May 11, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > > > > > >> From: Dave Wade > > > > > >> I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. > > > > > > If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only > the > > > 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) > > > > Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models > specifically. > > > > > ... > > >> I have done lots of searching and there doesn't seem to be a simple > > >> list of what can run on it > > > > > > Well, nothing that needs memory management - at least, as it sits. You > could > > > swap out the CPU card for an 11/23 or 11/73, then you could run an OS > that > > > needs memory management (Unix, or one of the DEC OS's that needs it - > > > I > know > > > nothing of the DEC OS's for the -11, someone else here will, though). > And > > > your backplane is probably so-called Q18, limited to 256KB of memory, > but > > > that's easy to upgrade. > > > > The 11/03 should run RT-11 nicely. Limited RSX, possibly; I don't know > those details. RSTS V4 also runs on unmapped PDP-11 systems, but that OS > only supports Unibus machines and a very limited set of disk controllers > (which doesn't include floppies). > > > > paul > > > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 11 16:21:46 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 14:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Has anyone used a 3D printer to make a case for their old machine ? I've > started drafting an SGI Indy "skin" in Sketch, but it's just a box right > now, nothing cool. I've noticed and been somewhat inspired by these: > Do NOT use SketchUp to create parts for 3D printing. You'll end up with an STL that's all screwed up. A good, free tool for this kind of thing would be DesignSpark Mechanical. It has a workflow similar to SketchUp. There's other free-to-use packages out there but I'm not familiar with them. > A C64 custom job: > https://3dprint.com/39764/3d-print-commodore-case/ > That's not a C-64. It's an emulated C-64 with a PC keyboard. :) g. <--- writes manuals for 3D printers -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 11 16:24:58 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 22:24:58 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/05/2016 20:45, "Paul Koning" wrote: > >> On May 11, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> From: Dave Wade >> >>> I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. >> >> If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only the >> 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) > > Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models > specifically. The 8{3|5}50s our biggest customer used had Pro380 VAX CONSOLES, I remember our main menu system looked odd on them since they had a bitmapped display. I've still got one of them I think, can't remember the last time I powered it up but I'm pretty sure it was running TSX-11. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From derschjo at gmail.com Wed May 11 16:27:49 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 14:27:49 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 2:24 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 11/05/2016 20:45, "Paul Koning" wrote: > > > > >> On May 11, 2016, at 3:30 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> > >>> From: Dave Wade > >> > >>> I have recently a PDP-11 which apparently came from a VAX console. > >> > >> If that's really where it came from, it's a QBUS 11/03. (And IIRC only > the > >> 780 had a PDP-11 console, although I'm not a VAX expert.) > > > > Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models > > specifically. > > The 8{3|5}50s our biggest customer used had Pro380 VAX CONSOLES, I remember > our main menu system looked odd on them since they had a bitmapped display. > I've still got one of them I think, can't remember the last time I powered > it up but I'm pretty sure it was running TSX-11. > While we're on that subject -- I have a friend locally with an 8550 that's missing the console Pro-380 system; if anyone happens to have one (with the appropriate VAX interface hardware) drop me a line... - Josh > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From james at attfield.co.uk Wed May 11 15:58:01 2016 From: james at attfield.co.uk (James Attfield) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 21:58:01 +0100 Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? Message-ID: <000c01d1abc7$ce4401a0$6acc04e0$@attfield.co.uk> > Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 07:05:52 -0400 > From: Corey Cohen > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Is there a C compiler for CP/M-80? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I think the title explains it all. Looking for a C compiler I can run on my Sol-20 > with CP/M 1.4 > > Thanks, > Corey My goto C for CP/M was always BDS C which is I believe still available along with source which is now in the public domain. Comart used to develop system stuff with it in the UK for their S-100 stuff before moving to DeSmet C for 8088/86. There is also Aztec C and HiTech C but I don't have any personal knowledge of them or their current availability. James From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 11 16:33:58 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 22:33:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacement for a Corcom F2987A EMI Filter Message-ID: <77070757.1017328.1463002438444.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> I have two failed Corcom filters in two DEC Rainbows. I see some spares available in the US, but shipping to the UK is likely to be prohibitive and I would like if possible to find a modern equivalent. It is this one: http://meci.com/corcom-12-20129-01-emi-line-filter-model-f2987a.html. I am told it isn't enough to know the current rating (2A at 240V) and that it you need to know the source impedance (and the impedance of the load?). Does anyone know the spec for this filter so that I can get a suitable one? Incidentally, when I fix these PSUs, I may be wanting to pass on one of the Rainbows. In this case it would not be free because I had to pay for it (and drive a fair distance to get it too). The one I may pass on is in a vertical pedestal. I may also have a third one to pass on which has a fault on the system board, I don't have a logic analyser capable of helping me to find the fault though. Thanks Rob From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 11 16:52:31 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:52:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, geneb wrote: > Do NOT use SketchUp to create parts for 3D printing. You'll end up with > an STL that's all screwed up. Ah, okay, thanks for this tip. > A good, free tool for this kind of thing would be DesignSpark > Mechanical. It has a workflow similar to SketchUp. Cool. I'm not fond of SketchUp anyhow. I'm switchin'. If you've ever used qcad, I'm wondering what you or others might know/think of it. That one works on my Unix boxes, that's why I ask. It's been flirting with me every since I've seen it appearing in various pkg repos. > That's not a C-64. It's an emulated C-64 with a PC keyboard. :) Heh, sorry, I didn't read it too close. I shoulda known from the keyboard. Plus the screen is too darn small. -Swift From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 11 16:59:31 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 14:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Wed, 11 May 2016, geneb wrote: >> Do NOT use SketchUp to create parts for 3D printing. You'll end up with >> an STL that's all screwed up. > > Ah, okay, thanks for this tip. > NP. If you're going to the Bay Area Maker Faire, stop by the SeeMeCNC booth and say hi. :) >> A good, free tool for this kind of thing would be DesignSpark >> Mechanical. It has a workflow similar to SketchUp. > > Cool. I'm not fond of SketchUp anyhow. I'm switchin'. If you've ever used > qcad, I'm wondering what you or others might know/think of it. That one > works on my Unix boxes, that's why I ask. It's been flirting with me every > since I've seen it appearing in various pkg repos. > I only use SolidWorks. There's nothing out there for MacOS or *nix that I'd spend the effort to throw a brick at. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 11 17:08:22 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 18:08:22 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4BF92C93-7879-44EF-9D34-839FF93DC643@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models >> specifically. > The 8{3|5}50s our biggest customer used had Pro380 VAX CONSOLES Not the 82xx/83xx, but the larger 85xx, 87xx and 88xx... Machines with a Nautilus bus, mostly. The 8200|8250|8300|8350 were more like a VAX-11/750 where the console "processor" was embedded into the CPU. > I remember > our main menu system looked odd on them since they had a bitmapped display. > I've still got one of them I think, can't remember the last time I powered > it up but I'm pretty sure it was running TSX-11. Nope. TSX-11 was not a DEC product. Pro350s and Pro380s (Pro325 didn't have a hard disk) usually ran P/OS, an RSX derivative for the Professional series. You could also get RT-11 for the Pro, as well as VENIX, but when used as a VAX console, it was P/OS and some menus/assets for being a console. It's not hard to repurpose them. -ethan From j at ckrubin.us Wed May 11 17:10:57 2016 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 22:10:57 +0000 Subject: Bags for RK05 disk cartridges Message-ID: Now that I've cleaned a stack of RK05 DECpacks, I want to keep them clean. Ideally, I'd like to find Ziploc-style poly bags like the DEC originals with the warning about dirt on the heads (the famous hair/head picture). I haven't been able to find a match for the original (roughly 16.5" square) but I have a sample of U-Line S-14411, a 6 mil reclosable bag that measures 16 x18. It's just slightly snugger than the original but seems to do the job. Does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks, Jack From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed May 11 17:18:49 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:18:49 -0700 Subject: Bags for RK05 disk cartridges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E3D57A9-F2C1-493F-812C-732FE5A377A3@shiresoft.com> I have a bunch of the originals (with packs in them) but they are showing their age (seams splitting). I?ll have to look at the U-Line bag to see how that works. TTFN - Guy > On May 11, 2016, at 3:10 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > > Now that I've cleaned a stack of RK05 DECpacks, I want to keep them clean. > > Ideally, I'd like to find Ziploc-style poly bags like the DEC originals with the warning about dirt on the heads (the famous hair/head picture). I haven't been able to find a match for the original (roughly 16.5" square) but I have a sample of U-Line S-14411, a 6 mil reclosable bag that measures 16 x18. It's just slightly snugger than the original but seems to do the job. Does anyone have any other suggestions? > > Thanks, > Jack From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed May 11 17:50:08 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 16:50:08 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Bags for RK05 disk cartridges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Jack Rubin wrote: > Ideally, I'd like to find Ziploc-style poly bags like the DEC originals > with the warning about dirt on the heads (the famous hair/head picture). I'm guessing with all the DEC gurus on the list you'll find what you are after. However, I can tell you that I've been able to screen print on plastic very effectively in the past. I do screen printing mainly for shirts and other fabric/clothing items. However, I've also used the technique to print on glass etc... I've used PVC inks to print on silicon and plastic before. However, there is a (big) caveat. When you go to cure the ink, you can't wuss-out on the high temp bake (your ink will tell you how hot and for how long). This is enough that it'd melt most plastic, so you need to use heat resistant bags. They are available in lots of different sizes and you can also the edge of a vacuum sealer, or a red-hot blade to create your own sizes by annealing the edges together. Then you screen print on top of that. It'd cost you between $100-$200 bucks to get setup with a pre-stretched screen, photoresist, a bit of ink, a bright light, and a curing/heat wand. So, it's not something I'd recommend just to print the bags. However, once you have the gear, you can find a ton of other places to use it should you have as many hobbies as I do. You can wash out the photoresist and re-use the screen infinitely. You can transfer the design directly to the screen simply by printing a transparent negative, overlaying it on the screen painted with resist, and exposing it. -Swift From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 11 18:05:53 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 00:05:53 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/05/2016 23:08, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: >>> Some others had a PRO as their console. Don't remember which models >>> specifically. >> The 8{3|5}50s our biggest customer used had Pro380 VAX CONSOLES > > Not the 82xx/83xx, but the larger 85xx, 87xx and 88xx... Machines with > a Nautilus bus, mostly. The 8200|8250|8300|8350 were more like a > VAX-11/750 where the console "processor" was embedded into the CPU. My memory's getting skewed with age, clearly. I can remember RKG's (Royal Kingdom of Geordies) finest 2 engineers upgrading the 8350s to 8550s and the passage of time has me convinced it was 'only' a backplane swap. I was purely a code monkey back then. One thing that definitely happened was the MD of this company was going to have his new VAXen removed again because they didn't have blinkenlights. > Nope. TSX-11 was not a DEC product. Pro350s and Pro380s (Pro325 > didn't have a hard disk) usually ran P/OS, an RSX derivative for the > Professional series. You could also get RT-11 for the Pro, as well as > VENIX, but when used as a VAX console, it was P/OS and some > menus/assets for being a console. It's not hard to repurpose them. Aaah P/OS! Yes, I think it's all the recent chat on here about TSX-11 that had me thinking that's what was running. The box of floppies I got might contain P/OS disks....Tomorrow I'll grab the RCD socket from the kitchen and plug said console in and will be prepared to be amazed if the RD51 spins up. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bradhodge75 at gmail.com Wed May 11 18:15:58 2016 From: bradhodge75 at gmail.com (Brad H) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 16:15:58 -0700 Subject: Interact Model One Software Message-ID: <194101d1abdb$13ea1330$3bbe3990$@gmail.com> Hi guys, I scored a cheap Interact Model One (original with chiclet keys). It's an interesting piece - much larger than photos suggest. It appears to be somewhat functional (comes up to the press L to load tape screen), however I lack any tapes to load with it. I've not found any archives of tapes for this thing anywhere (I guess being an oddball computer like it is, not much demand). Wondered if anyone out there had one of these and if software was out there? Brad From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 11 18:17:57 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 00:17:57 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5733BDA5.4020209@ntlworld.com> On 12/05/16 00:05, Adrian Graham wrote: > > My memory's getting skewed with age, clearly. I can remember RKG's (Royal > Kingdom of Geordies) finest 2 engineers upgrading the 8350s to 8550s and the > passage of time has me convinced it was 'only' a backplane swap. I was > purely a code monkey back then. One thing that definitely happened was the > MD of this company was going to have his new VAXen removed again because > they didn't have blinkenlights. The VAX 8200/8250/8300/8350 was a low-end BI-based system. Put in one CPU and you had a VAX 8200; put in two and you had a VAX8300. There was a mid-life kicker, which was a slightly faster CPU and that gave you the 8250/8350. I'm sure I put three CPUs in the one I had back at DEC and it booted and (this is where I'm hazy) called itself a VAX 8370. The VAX 8500 ("Flounder", someone was definitely "having a larf"...) was a VAX 8550 with NOPs in the microcode. Customers noticed and the NOPs were removed. That made the VAX 8530 iirc. The VAX 8550 was the faster variant in the same box. These systems had a PRO variant for the console. They all used the NMI backplane and so were similar to (but not iirc upgradeable to) the VAX 88x0 series ("Polarstar"). These were all much taller boxes than the VAX 8200 series. BTW: well done for remembering RKG :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 11 18:19:51 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 16:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, alexmcwhirter at triadic.us wrote: > On 2016-05-11 17:59, geneb wrote: >>> >>> Cool. I'm not fond of SketchUp anyhow. I'm switchin'. If you've ever used >>> qcad, I'm wondering what you or others might know/think of it. That one >>> works on my Unix boxes, that's why I ask. It's been flirting with me every >>> since I've seen it appearing in various pkg repos. >>> >> I only use SolidWorks. There's nothing out there for MacOS or *nix >> that I'd spend the effort to throw a brick at. :) >> >> g. > > FreeCad has worked great for all of my printing needs FWIW. Granted i tend to > build structural things, not necessarily pretty things. I did however design > a 1U server case that holds 8 RPi's with a integrated PSU / UltraCap UPS. > I've heard good things about FreeCAD, but only if you're using the nighties. Apparently the "stable" version is way behind feature-wise. A number of people are using Blender for organic shapes, but I don't know how well it outputs STL files. (That and the learning curve is a 90 degree angle.) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 11 18:43:25 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 01:43:25 +0200 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: This has been waiting for a reply for too long... On 4 May 2016 at 20:59, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> On 29 April 2016 at 21:06, Sean Conner wrote: >> > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> >> > I read that and it doesn't really seem that CAOS would have been much >> > better than what actually came out. Okay, the potentially better resource >> > tracking would be nice, but that's about it really. >> >> The story of ARX, the unfinished Acorn OS in Modula-2 for the >> then-prototype Archimedes, is similar. >> >> No, it probably wouldn't have been all that radical. >> >> I wonder how much of Amiga OS' famed performance, compactness, etc. >> was a direct result of its adaptation to the MMU-less 68000, and thus >> could never have been implemented in a way that could have been made >> more robust on later chips such as the 68030? > > Part of that was the MMU-less 68000. It certainly made message passing > cheap (since you could just send a pointer and avoid copying the message) Well, yes. I know several Amiga fans who refer to classic AmigaOS as being a de-facto microkernel implementation, but ISTM that that is overly simplistic. The point of microkernels, ISTM, is that the different elements of an OS are in different processes, isolated by memory management, and communicate over defined interfaces to work together to provide the functionality of a conventional monolithic kernel. My reading suggests that one of the biggest problems with this is performance. If they're all in the same memory space, then even if they're functionally separate, they can communicate through shared memory -- meaning that although it might /look/ superficially like a microkernel, the elements are not in fact isolated from one another, so practically, pragmatically, it's not a microkernel. If there is no separation between the cooperating processes, then it's just a question of design aesthetics, rather than it being a microkernel. > but QNX shows that even with copying, you can still have a fast operating > system [1]. Indeed. And of course at one point it looked like QNX would be the basis for the next-gen Amiga OS: http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/qnxanno.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/07/09/qnx_developer_pleas_for_amiga/ http://www.trollaxor.com/2005/06/how-qnx-failed-amiga.html > I think what made the Amiga so fast (even with a 7.1MHz CPU) > was the specialized hardware. You pretty much used the MC68000 to script > the hardware. That seems a bit harsh! :-) >> > I spent some hours on the Urbit site. Between the obscure writing, >> > entirely new jargon and the "we're going to change the world" attitude, >> > it very much feels like the Xanadu Project. >> >> I am not sure I'm the person to try to summarise it. >> >> I've nicked my own effort from my tech blog: >> >> I've not tried Urbit. (Yet.) >> >> But my impression is this: >> >> It's not obfuscatory for the hell of it. It is, yes, but for a valid >> reason: that he doesn't want to waste time explaining or supporting >> it. It's hard because you need to be v v bright to fathom it; >> obscurity is a user filter. > > Red flag #1. Point, yes. But Curtis Yarvin is a strange person, and at least via his pseudonymous mouthpiece Mencius Moldbug, has some unpalatable views. You are, I presume, aware of the controversy over his appearance at LambdaConf this year? E.g. http://www.inc.com/tess-townsend/why-it-matters-that-an-obscure-programming-conference-is-hosting-mencius-moldbug.html >> He claims NOT to be a Lisp type, not to have known anything much about >> the language or LispMs, & to have re-invented some of the underlying >> ideas independently. I'm not sure I believe this. >> >> My view of it from a technical perspective is this. (This may sound >> over-dramatic.) >> >> We are so mired in the C world that modern CPUs are essentially C >> machines. The conceptual model of C, of essentially all compilers, OSes, >> imperative languages, &c. is a flawed one -- it is too simple an >> abstraction. Q.v. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 > > Ah yes, Stanislav. Yet anohther person who goes on and on about how bad > things are and makes oblique references to a better way without ever going > into detail and expecting everyone to read his mind (yes, I don't have a > high opinion of him either). I gather. He did, at one point, express fairly clearly what he wanted. The problem is that he then changed his mind, went off on various tangents concerning designing his own CPU, and seems to have got mired in that. Reminds me of Charles Babbage and his failure to produce a finalised Difference Engine, because at first he got distracted by tweaking it, and later distracted by the Analytical Engine. If he'd focussed on delivering the DE, it would have paid for the AE, and the world would be a profoundly different place today. > And you do realize that Stanislav does not think highly of Urbit (he > considers Yarvin as being deluded [2]). I do. Honestly, I suspect some of this is down to NIH syndrome, some to jealousy, and some to the fact that Yarvin has an explicit agenda which Stanislav does not share. >> Instead of bytes & blocks of them, the basic unit is the list. >> Operations are defined in terms of lists, not bytes. You define a few >> very simple operations & that's all you need. > > Nice in theory. Glacial performance in practice. Everything was glacial once. We've had 4 decades of very well-funded R&D aimed at producing faster C machines. Oddly, x86 has remained ahead of the pack and most of the RISC families ended up sidelined, except ARM. Funny how things turn out. 3.5 decades of investment in x86 has produced some amazingly fast, capable chips. If we'd had 4 decades of effort aimed at fast Lisp Machines, I think we'd have them. Kalman Reti has an interesting presentation on Lisp Machines on Youtube -- if you've not seen it, it's linked from this relevant discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10255276 As he puts it, when Symbolics assembled its own single-chip processor, it achieved a task of such complexity that the only comparable effort he was aware of was DEC's development of the MicroVAX CPU. And Symbolics achieved this with a single-digit-sized development team, whereas DEC had a 3-digit sized team and took several years to do it. >> The way LispMs worked, AIUI, is that the machine language wasn't Lisp, >> it was something far simpler, but designed to map onto Lisp concepts. >> >> I have been told that modern CPU design & optimisations & so on map >> really poorly onto this set of primitives. That LispM CPUs were stack >> machines, but modern processors are register machines. I am not >> competent to judge the truth of this. > > The Lisp machines had tagged memory to help with the garbage collection > and avoid wasting tons of memory. Yeah, it also had CPU instructions like > CAR and CDR (even the IBM 704 had those [4]). Even the VAX nad QUEUE > instructions to add and remove items from a linked list. I think it's > really the tagged memory that made the Lisp machines special. We have 64-bit machines now. GPUs are wider still. I think we could afford a few tag bits. >> If Yarvin's claims are to be believed, he has done 2 intertwined things: >> >> [1] Experimentally or theoretically worked out something akin to these >> primitives. >> [2] Found or worked out a way to map them onto modern CPUs. > > List comprehension I believe. > >> This is his "machine code". Something that is not directly connected >> or associated with modern CPUs' machine languages. He has built >> something OTHER but defined his own odd language to describe it & >> implement it. He has DELIBERATELY made it unlike anything else so you >> don't bring across preconceptions & mental impurities. You need to >> start over. > > Eh. I see that, and raise you a purely functional (as in---pure > functions, no data) implementation of FizzBuzz: > > https://codon.com/programming-with-nothing > >> But, as far as I can judge, the design is sane, clean, & I am taking >> it that he has reasons for the weirdness. I don't think it's >> gratuitous. > > We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I think he's being > intentionally obtuse to appear profound. It could be. I am not sure that I am competent to judge. But I have in my time talked to a few truly brilliant minds, and often, I find that they are obscure and hard to follow simply because their minds move in leaps that lesser minds such as my own cannot follow. I have read comments that whereas Yarvin's original description of Urbit was so full of his own clever wordage that it was almost impossible to follow, but now, as others work on the wiki pages, it's more human-readable, if less inspiring. >> So what on a LispM was the machine language, in Urbit, is Nock. It's a >> whole new machine language layer, placed on top of an existing OS >> stack, so I'm not surprised if it's horrendously inefficient. >> >> Compare with Ternac, a trinary computer implemented as a simulation on >> a binary machine. It's that big a change. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternac >> >> Then, on top of this layer, he's built a new type of OS. This seems to >> have conceptual & architectural analogies with LispM OSes such as >> Genera. Only Yarvin claims not to be a Lisper, so he's re-invented >> that wheel. That is Hoon. >> >> But he has an Agenda. >> >> Popehat explained it well here: >> https://popehat.com/2013/12/06/nock-hoon-etc-for-non-vulcans-why-urbit-matters/ > > Yeah, I read that. Urbit is a functional underpinning. Well, yes, it is, but I personally am not terribly interested in what it underpins. I'm just interested because, coming from a very different basis, and working towards totally different goals, he seems to have come to the same conclusions that I had -- and Stanislav Datskovskiy has, among a very few others. Such a convergence of ideas suggests to me that these powerful ideas are in fact possibly correct. > Of course we need > to burn the disc packs. I don't understand this. If you mean that, in order to get to saner, more productive, more powerful computer architectures, we need to throw away much of what's been built and go right back to building new foundations, then yes, I fear so. But saying that, a lot of today's productive code is in very high-level languages such as Clojure, Python, Ruby and so on. I see no reason that these could not be re-implemented on some hypothetical modern Lisp-based OS, just as OpenGenera could run C, Fortran and so on. Yes, tear down the foundations and rebuild, but top of the new replacement, much existing code could, in principle, be retained and re-used. >> I would be interested in an effort to layer a bare-metal-up LispM-type >> layer on top of x86, ARM, &c. But Yarvin isn't here for the sheer >> techno-wanking. Oh no. He wants to reinvent the world, via the medium >> of encryption, digital currencies, &c. So he has a whole other layer >> on top of Urbit, which is the REASON for Urbit -- a secure, P2P, >> encrypted, next-gen computer system which happens to run on existing >> machines & over the existing Internet, because that's the available >> infrastructure, & whereas it's a horrid mess, it's what is there. You >> can't ignore it, you can't achieve these grandiose goals within it, >> so, you just layer your new stuff over the top. > > So does Stanislav. I don't think he does. AFAICT from extensive reading of loper-os.org, originally, Dastovskiy's intent was to built a LispM-type OS on x86. Then he got distracted by the potential of things like FPGAs and never came back. Tragic, really. > And so did Far? Rideau with TUNES. Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about that. Thanks for the reminder. > But at some point, the electrons need to meet the silicon or else it's > just talk. Lots and lots of talk. Obsfucated talk at that. Well, yes, up to a point. But there are signs that things are actually getting done. Besides Urbit, there are: https://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ http://interim.mntmn.com/ https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano On which note, this discussion is interesting for the contribution from the ex-Apple type: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/10gr05/lisp_based_operating_system_questionproposition/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed May 11 18:54:00 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 19:54:00 -0400 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On 2016-05-11 7:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > ... > If we'd had 4 decades of effort aimed at fast Lisp Machines, I think > we'd have them. Compiled Lisp, even on generic hardware, is fast. Fast enough, in fact, that it obviated Symbolics. (More in Richard P. Gabriel's history of Lucid.) See also: The newly open sourced Chez Scheme. The myths around garbage collection are also thick, but gc doesn't impede efficiency except under conditions of insufficient headroom (long documented by research old and new). --Toby From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 11 19:41:40 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 18:41:40 -0600 Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <8a9df73e-f754-e6f6-e5a1-2829da68fceb@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/11/2016 5:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-05-11 7:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> ... >> If we'd had 4 decades of effort aimed at fast Lisp Machines, I think >> we'd have them. > > Compiled Lisp, even on generic hardware, is fast. Fast enough, in fact, > that it obviated Symbolics. (More in Richard P. Gabriel's history of > Lucid.) See also: The newly open sourced Chez Scheme. But List still sequential processing as far as I can see? How do you speed that up? > The myths around garbage collection are also thick, but gc doesn't > impede efficiency except under conditions of insufficient headroom (long > documented by research old and new). Well GC is every Tuesday here. :) > --Toby Ben. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 11 19:47:04 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 20:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strangest systems I've sent email from In-Reply-To: <8a9df73e-f754-e6f6-e5a1-2829da68fceb@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20160427201307.GE20423@brevard.conman.org> <20160429190635.GA18197@brevard.conman.org> <20160504185957.GA1952@brevard.conman.org> <8a9df73e-f754-e6f6-e5a1-2829da68fceb@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201605120047.UAA13419@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Compiled Lisp, even on generic hardware, is fast. [...] > But List still sequential processing as far as I can see? How do you > speed that up? Just as sequential as C or PL/I or whatever else. As for speeding it up? As a compiler geek I'm strictly a dilettante, so I don't really know, but I would imagine you'd do it much the way you would optimize any other language. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 11 20:31:51 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 21:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160512013151.02A1018C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade > Cards are > M7264 11/03 processor with 4-Kword MOS RAM > M7940 > M9400ye DLV11 Serial Line Unit (system cosole) REV11-E (240-ohm terminators for Q18) QBUS termination is a complex subject; when you have multiple backplane sections, connected by cables, each section has 'termination'. That's what this REV11-E card is; it's also the QBUS 'out' to the card in the 780 CPU which the console -11 uses to control the /780 CPU. Why it's in the middle slot, I'm not sure (unless things have been moved around)? > M8044ee > m7946 MSV11-?? (My list doesn't contain an '-EE', but it's some sort of small MOS memory, Q18) RXV11 (RX01 8" floppy disk controller) In theory, the M8044-EE should be an "MSV11-DE" (not "MSV11-EE", that would be an M8045-EE), but none of my documentation, including the M8044 prints, covers such a variant. Maybe I need to look in the /780 prints, it may be a special variant for use in the /780 console machines. > M8192 LSI-11/73 CPU; a nice machine, if you can eventually get it running. You'll want a bunch more memory (note that the M8044/8045 cards are Q18, and so you can only have up to 256KB with them - they _WILL NOT WORK_ in a system with more than 256KB in it). > Also have loose grant card.... You mean an M9047? I would start with just the 11/03 CPU and the console card; hook it up to something, and see if you can get it to talk to the console. (Configure the CPU to halt, and fall into Console ODT, on power-on.) It's probably worth getting one of the various LSI-11 CPU handbooks: Microcomputer Handbook (1976-77) Microcomputer Processors (1978-79) Microcomputer Processor Handbook (1979-80) Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1981) Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1982) they all cover the quad-width 11/03 CPU. Although they're probably available online, it's very handy to have a hard-copy one; those are available on eBay and such. That backplane is probably a so-called 'serpentine' backplane, i.e. ones in which the (dual) slots are numbered: 1 2 4 3 5 6 8 7 so the console would need to go in '3' if it's the only card other than the CPU (at least, if you want it to be able to do interrupts). Once you get it working in that configuration, you can configure and add the memory card (if you can figure out what the devil it is ;-). And then the RX01 controller. The REV-11 isn't needed in this configuration. The boot PROM for this machine was actually on the card in the /780 CPU, so eventually you'll need a replacement - something like a BDV11 or something (they are available, and not too expensive). > From: Robert Jarratt > The seller said it was indeed out of a 780. Yeah, that's what it looks like. > I got the impression the 11/23 card was just a spare he had that he put > in the enclosure, not really part of the original system. Actually, an 11/73, but yes, definitely not part of the original system. I don't know if it will work in that backplane without the backplane being upgraded from Q18; it might, but that would need some investigation. Noel From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 11 20:58:36 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 18:58:36 -0700 Subject: Tape reader Message-ID: Does anyone here know how to order this device? It seems to still possibly be offered, but I am not sure how to order it. I'm not sure if the person is on the list, if so you can reply off list. Looked for faq or shopping or buy pointer, didn't find one. thanks JIm http://retropcdesign.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6 From j at ckrubin.us Wed May 11 21:20:22 2016 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 02:20:22 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/A 128K memory - M8417 or M8418? Message-ID: I've been looking for a 128K MOS memory board for my PDP-8/A for a while. I finally got one, but it turned out to be an M8418. The docs I've seen (bitsavers EK-MS8CD-TM-001, 1980 + printsets) talk about an M8417 with 4k DRAM chips (MS8-C) and an M8417 with 16k DRAM chips (MS8-D), but apparently at some point the 16k versions became known as the M8418. The card I received has 96 Fujitsu MB8116E 16k DRAMs, arranged in two 8 x 12 chip arrays. The actual circuit board says PDP MOS MEMORY - M8417 - 50 12701B on the back but the metal card ejector edge is stamped M8418 JC. Chip dates on the board put it at 1980 production. None of my literature has the M8418 p/n but most of it may be too old. The M8418 part number (with JC suffix to indicate Fujitsu RAM) does show up in the 1988 Options Module List. I know several list members have similar boards. How are they marked? Can anyone point to more info on the M8418? Thanks, Jack From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 11 22:12:11 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 23:12:11 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A 128K memory - M8417 or M8418? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I've been looking for a 128K MOS memory board for my PDP-8/A for a while. I finally got one, but it turned out to be an M8418. Huh... I'm not sure I've seen that version. > The docs I've seen (bitsavers EK-MS8CD-TM-001, 1980 + printsets) talk about an M8417 with 4k DRAM chips (MS8-C) and an M8417 with 16k DRAM chips (MS8-D), Right... I remember the MS8DJ in particular as the full part number for the 128K MOS board. > ...but apparently at some point the 16k versions became known as the M8418. The card I received has 96 Fujitsu MB8116E 16k DRAMs, arranged in two 8 x 12 chip arrays. The actual circuit board says PDP MOS MEMORY - M8417 - 50 12701B on the back but the metal card ejector edge is stamped M8418 JC. Chip dates on the board put it at 1980 production. OK... then that sounds like a later change to help easily distinguish the 16K/32K boards from the 128K boards, rather than a stamped "D" or "C" on one of the handle sections. > None of my literature has the M8418 p/n but most of it may be too old. The M8418 part number (with JC suffix to indicate Fujitsu RAM) does show up in the 1988 Options Module List. Well then it sounds like a real thing that lasted long enough to make the list. > I know several list members have similar boards. How are they marked? Can anyone point to more info on the M8418? I haven't stared at mine in many years, but I'm fairly certain I have an M8417 with "DJ" stamped on the other part of the handle. I would have gotten it from a 3rd-party reseller like Newman Computer Exchange in the late 1980s (I got the PDP-8/a in 1984 but wouldn't have upped it to 128K right away - I was buying a lot of used PDP-8 gear between 1985 and 1987). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 11 22:29:33 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 23:29:33 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A 128K memory - M8417 or M8418? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I've been looking for a 128K MOS memory board for my PDP-8/A for a while...an M8418. > > None of my literature has the M8418 p/n but most of it may be too old... I found one reference... in: PDP8A_Schems_Apr81.pdf page 199 of 216 At the top of the page, it says... "P A R T S L I S T SHEET C1 of C3" ... and further down, it says... LINE ITEM DOCUMENT NUMBER PART NUMBER DESCRIPTION . . 3 3 5012701-00 ETCH BOARD (M8418).... All other mentions in the file are M8417. -ethan From pete at petelancashire.com Wed May 11 17:22:26 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:22:26 -0700 Subject: Bags for RK05 disk cartridges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Zip-Lock brand has some large size bags Google Large Zip Lock bags On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > Now that I've cleaned a stack of RK05 DECpacks, I want to keep them clean. > > Ideally, I'd like to find Ziploc-style poly bags like the DEC originals with the warning about dirt on the heads (the famous hair/head picture). I haven't been able to find a match for the original (roughly 16.5" square) but I have a sample of U-Line S-14411, a 6 mil reclosable bag that measures 16 x18. It's just slightly snugger than the original but seems to do the job. Does anyone have any other suggestions? > > Thanks, > Jack > From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Wed May 11 17:20:12 2016 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (alexmcwhirter at triadic.us) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 18:20:12 -0400 Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-05-11 17:59, geneb wrote: >> >> Cool. I'm not fond of SketchUp anyhow. I'm switchin'. If you've ever >> used >> qcad, I'm wondering what you or others might know/think of it. That >> one >> works on my Unix boxes, that's why I ask. It's been flirting with me >> every >> since I've seen it appearing in various pkg repos. >> > I only use SolidWorks. There's nothing out there for MacOS or *nix > that I'd spend the effort to throw a brick at. :) > > g. FreeCad has worked great for all of my printing needs FWIW. Granted i tend to build structural things, not necessarily pretty things. I did however design a 1U server case that holds 8 RPi's with a integrated PSU / UltraCap UPS. From michael.roy.barnes at gmail.com Wed May 11 18:25:35 2016 From: michael.roy.barnes at gmail.com (Mike Barnes) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 19:25:35 -0400 Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Has anyone used a 3D printer to make a case for their old machine ? I've > started drafting an SGI Indy "skin" in Sketch, but it's just a box right > now, nothing cool. Not an actual old machine, but I did a mini-blinkenlights replica of an HP-2100 system that has an Odroid-C1 in one of the boxes and uses simH to emulate HP Access (see https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikebikes/22213398140). Each box was bigger than my printer (Makerbot Rep2), so had to be built in pieces and assembled using thermoplastic inserts. There's also a black 3d printed light tunnel inside to keep the lights from leaking to the adjacent lights. This design was done using OpenSCAD (http://www.openscad.org). For almost all of my designs these days, I use Onshape (https://cad.onshape.com). Both have their uses. Onshape has a learning curve, but is extremely powerful. Mike From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu May 12 01:44:14 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 08:44:14 +0200 Subject: VAX 83xx [Was: Re: PDP-11] In-Reply-To: <5733BDA5.4020209@ntlworld.com> References: <5733BDA5.4020209@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20160512064413.GB7691@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 12:17:57AM +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > The VAX 8200/8250/8300/8350 was a low-end BI-based system. > Put in one CPU and you had a VAX 8200; put in two and you had a VAX8300. > There was a mid-life kicker, which was a slightly faster CPU and that gave > you > the 8250/8350. I'm sure I put three CPUs in the one I had back at DEC and > it booted and (this is where I'm hazy) called itself a VAX 8370. > I'm about to pick up an 8350 which the previous owner says has four cpus and calls it an 8354. I can report back later in the summer after I have picked it up. /P From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu May 12 01:50:24 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 23:50:24 -0700 Subject: News about hpmuseum.net In-Reply-To: <573251D6.6090902@gmail.com> References: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <573251D6.6090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is great news despite the sorrow. Thank you for that, the museum is such an awesome resource for HP collectors. I saw your video on the 2116 restoration were both Jon and you appear. We have at least one more at the CHM, just as a static display for now. I hope I can visit you in Melbourne one day. Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 10, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > The following was posted on hpmuseum.org this morning: > > *RE: Jon Johnston Passes * > As an update to the sad news of Jon Johnston's death, I can advise that the HP museum and the hpmuseum.net website he built will be continued and maintained for the foreseeable future. > > Over the last 8 months I have worked with Jon in restoring items from his collection of equipment and, among a range of items, recently restored an HP2116A computer to working order - one of only two Jon was aware of in the world and the only one that's operational. > > At this stage we have not been able to access the website and put any notices or updates but that should be addressed shortly. > > Jon's wife has asked me to look after the museum and website for the foreseeable future and as much as possible, continue to develop the museum in line with Jon's vision and objectives. > > As a short background, I joined HP Australia in 1982 as a Customer Engineer maintaining HP3000s, HP250s, all peripherals, terminals etc. I stayed with HP for over 26 years (including 5 years in Palo Alto) in a range of Services roles and have many fond memories of the company and the people I worked with. > > While my ability to invest time into the museum is more limited than Jon's, I hope to honour both his memory and the legacy of the 'old HP' by keeping the museum going as best I can, hopefully with help from the HP interest groups across the world. > > David Collins > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu May 12 01:55:21 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 02:55:21 -0400 Subject: News about hpmuseum.net Message-ID: <55c934.19c14b51.446582d9@aol.com> I am glad to see this effort of Jon's remain Independent. I believe he would have wanted it that way. Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 5/11/2016 11:50:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com writes: This is great news despite the sorrow. Thank you for that, the museum is such an awesome resource for HP collectors. I saw your video on the 2116 restoration were both Jon and you appear. We have at least one more at the CHM, just as a static display for now. I hope I can visit you in Melbourne one day. Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 10, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > The following was posted on hpmuseum.org this morning: > > *RE: Jon Johnston Passes * > As an update to the sad news of Jon Johnston's death, I can advise that the HP museum and the hpmuseum.net website he built will be continued and maintained for the foreseeable future. > > Over the last 8 months I have worked with Jon in restoring items from his collection of equipment and, among a range of items, recently restored an HP2116A computer to working order - one of only two Jon was aware of in the world and the only one that's operational. > > At this stage we have not been able to access the website and put any notices or updates but that should be addressed shortly. > > Jon's wife has asked me to look after the museum and website for the foreseeable future and as much as possible, continue to develop the museum in line with Jon's vision and objectives. > > As a short background, I joined HP Australia in 1982 as a Customer Engineer maintaining HP3000s, HP250s, all peripherals, terminals etc. I stayed with HP for over 26 years (including 5 years in Palo Alto) in a range of Services roles and have many fond memories of the company and the people I worked with. > > While my ability to invest time into the museum is more limited than Jon's, I hope to honour both his memory and the legacy of the 'old HP' by keeping the museum going as best I can, hopefully with help from the HP interest groups across the world. > > David Collins > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 12 02:21:31 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 08:21:31 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20160512013151.02A1018C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160512013151.02A1018C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01df01d1ac1e$e8d5d820$ba818860$@gmail.com> > > Also have loose grant card.... > > You mean an M9047? > Small card, looks like it fits deep in bus. Sorry didn't get number and machine is not accessible at present > > I would start with just the 11/03 CPU and the console card; hook it up to > something, and see if you can get it to talk to the console. (Configure the CPU > to halt, and fall into Console ODT, on power-on.) > Any clues on where I can find pin-outs for making a cable. I have looked at the LSI-11 Systems Service Manual on Bitsavers and it has everything except... > It's probably worth getting one of the various LSI-11 CPU handbooks: > > Microcomputer Handbook (1976-77) > Microcomputer Processors (1978-79) > Microcomputer Processor Handbook (1979-80) > Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1981) > Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1982) > > they all cover the quad-width 11/03 CPU. Although they're probably available > online, it's very handy to have a hard-copy one; those are available on eBay and > such. > I will check Bitsavers etc. > That backplane is probably a so-called 'serpentine' backplane, i.e. ones in which > the (dual) slots are numbered: > > 1 2 > 4 3 > 5 6 > 8 7 > > so the console would need to go in '3' if it's the only card other than the CPU (at > least, if you want it to be able to do interrupts). > > Once you get it working in that configuration, you can configure and add the > memory card (if you can figure out what the devil it is ;-). And then the > RX01 controller. > OK will do > The REV-11 isn't needed in this configuration. The boot PROM for this machine > was actually on the card in the /780 CPU, so eventually you'll need a > replacement - something like a BDV11 or something (they are available, and > not too expensive). > I will look for one of those. > > > From: Robert Jarratt > > > The seller said it was indeed out of a 780. > > Yeah, that's what it looks like. > > > I got the impression the 11/23 card was just a spare he had that he put > > in the enclosure, not really part of the original system. > > Actually, an 11/73, but yes, definitely not part of the original system. I don't > know if it will work in that backplane without the backplane being upgraded > from Q18; it might, but that would need some investigation. Well I won't try it until I have the rest working > > Noel Thanks, Dave From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 12 07:21:10 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 08:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160512122110.4902D18C0B3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade > Small card, looks like it fits deep in bus. If it is a QBUS grant continuity card, it will have two looped-back pin pairs (the QBUS has two grant lines - DMA and interrupt) on the back-side, with a blank pin between them. (AM2-AN2 and AR2-AS2, to be exact.) > Any clues on where I can find pin-outs for making a cable. All the DEC 40-pin serial line headers have the same pintout, AFAIK. So you can use any of the manuals for the DL11, e.g. EK-DL11-OP-001, available widely, e.g.: http://vaxhaven.com/images/4/42/EK-DL11-OP-001.pdf which uses that same pinout, and has it in great detail, for making a cable. Those directions produce at DTE cable - if you want to produce a DCE (suitable for plugging into another computer), you need to reverse RD and TD, etc. Noel From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 12 08:09:58 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 06:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D Printing cases and SGI "skins" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2016, Mike Barnes wrote: > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: >> Has anyone used a 3D printer to make a case for their old machine ? I've >> started drafting an SGI Indy "skin" in Sketch, but it's just a box right >> now, nothing cool. > > Not an actual old machine, but I did a mini-blinkenlights replica of an > HP-2100 system that has an Odroid-C1 in one of the boxes and uses simH to > emulate HP Access (see https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikebikes/22213398140). > Each box was bigger than my printer (Makerbot Rep2), so had to be built in > pieces and assembled using thermoplastic inserts. There's also a black 3d > printed light tunnel inside to keep the lights from leaking to the adjacent > lights. > That's really slick! Condolences on owning a takerbot. :) > This design was done using OpenSCAD (http://www.openscad.org). For almost > all of my designs these days, I use Onshape (https://cad.onshape.com). Both > have their uses. Onshape has a learning curve, but is extremely powerful. > Mike > OpenSCAD always struck me as a poor programming language masquerading as an even worse parametric design tool, but some folks seem to enjoy it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From davidk.collins at bigpond.com Thu May 12 10:21:33 2016 From: davidk.collins at bigpond.com (David Collins) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 01:21:33 +1000 Subject: News about hpmuseum.net In-Reply-To: References: <201605101416.KAA16500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <204f01d1aaf2$e4147ad0$ac3d7070$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <573251D6.6090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015c01d1ac61$f8325b70$e8971250$@bigpond.com> Thanks Marc, much appreciated. Happy to host you if you ever make if down this way. David Collins -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sent: Thursday, 12 May 2016 4:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Verdiell Marc Subject: Re: News about hpmuseum.net This is great news despite the sorrow. Thank you for that, the museum is such an awesome resource for HP collectors. I saw your video on the 2116 restoration were both Jon and you appear. We have at least one more at the CHM, just as a static display for now. I hope I can visit you in Melbourne one day. Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 10, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > The following was posted on hpmuseum.org this morning: > > *RE: Jon Johnston Passes * > As an update to the sad news of Jon Johnston's death, I can advise that the HP museum and the hpmuseum.net website he built will be continued and maintained for the foreseeable future. > > Over the last 8 months I have worked with Jon in restoring items from his collection of equipment and, among a range of items, recently restored an HP2116A computer to working order - one of only two Jon was aware of in the world and the only one that's operational. > > At this stage we have not been able to access the website and put any notices or updates but that should be addressed shortly. > > Jon's wife has asked me to look after the museum and website for the foreseeable future and as much as possible, continue to develop the museum in line with Jon's vision and objectives. > > As a short background, I joined HP Australia in 1982 as a Customer Engineer maintaining HP3000s, HP250s, all peripherals, terminals etc. I stayed with HP for over 26 years (including 5 years in Palo Alto) in a range of Services roles and have many fond memories of the company and the people I worked with. > > While my ability to invest time into the museum is more limited than Jon's, I hope to honour both his memory and the legacy of the 'old HP' by keeping the museum going as best I can, hopefully with help from the HP interest groups across the world. > > David Collins > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 12 11:44:12 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 18:44:12 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/05 microcode dump? In-Reply-To: References: <20160506223225.EF4F118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > Having just programmed some 24SA10's a couple of weeks back on a Data I/O > 29B, I can report that you should be fine... > > Thanks. Just programmed it and put it into place. The machine now passes the very basic test "looping in the registers" described in the maintenance section. Need to verify the correct behavior of the other diagnostics until I consider it OK. But so far so good. /Mattis From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 12 11:54:06 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 09:54:06 -0700 Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware Message-ID: I know this is a long shot, but these have been on my list for a while. I am located in Seattle but am not opposed to arranging freight or local pick-up. Would like to purchase but would also consider trades. Thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ethan at 757.org Thu May 12 12:13:33 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 13:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I know this is a long shot, but these have been on my list for a while. > I am located in Seattle but am not opposed to arranging freight or local > pick-up. > Would like to purchase but would also consider trades. > Thanks, > - Ian Years ago I gave away my 4d/480VGX... and I think the guy asked if I wanted it back. Do you want me to find his contact info? It's a larger box, Challenge XL sized. Brown with 8 LED bar graphs for CPU load of the eight R3000 processors. My second SGI. *swoon* -- Ethan O'Toole From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu May 12 12:42:18 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 17:42:18 +0000 Subject: Myths about Lisp [was RE: strangest systems I've sent email from] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED20A62@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: ben Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 5:42 PM > On 5/11/2016 5:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2016-05-11 7:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> If we'd had 4 decades of effort aimed at fast Lisp Machines, I think >>> we'd have them. >> Compiled Lisp, even on generic hardware, is fast. Fast enough, in fact, >> that it obviated Symbolics. (More in Richard P. Gabriel's history of >> Lucid.) See also: The newly open sourced Chez Scheme. > But List still sequential processing as far as I can see? How do you > speed that up? This is another of the long-standing myths perpetuated by people who know nothing about the language. It has literally been decades since lists were the only data structure available in Lisp. If you need non-sequential access to process data, arrays are the ticket, or hashes. Choose the best data structure for to problem at hand. (Similarly, data types other than atoms have been around since the very earliest LISP. They just weren't sexy, and didn't get a lot of press since they weren't novel and difficult to understand. Math code from the MACLISP compiler was better than that generated by the F40 FORTRAN compiler.) >> The myths around garbage collection are also thick, but gc doesn't >> impede efficiency except under conditions of insufficient headroom (long >> documented by research old and new). > Well GC is every Tuesday here. :) You joke, but in one of the visionary papers on GC from the early 70s, a tongue-in-cheek scenario was proposed in which GC was done by a portable system which had sufficient memory would visit large facilities to do background GC for them on, say, a monthly basis. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu May 12 12:49:36 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 19:49:36 +0200 Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160512174936.GA29708@Update.UU.SE> If anyone on the european side of things has a twin tower I would be all over it. 12 slots preffered but beggars can't be choosers. A rebranded system such as Prime would do too. While I'm dreaming, I've been looking for an SGI Espressigo for a while. It's the only retro machine my wife has agreed to letting me keep in the house :) /P On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 09:54:06AM -0700, Ian Finder wrote: > I know this is a long shot, but these have been on my list for a while. > > I am located in Seattle but am not opposed to arranging freight or local > pick-up. > > Would like to purchase but would also consider trades. > > Thanks, > > - Ian > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu May 12 12:50:16 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 11:50:16 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Brown with 8 LED bar graphs for CPU load of the eight R3000 processors. Ah.... a sweet machine. That was the machine that I believe "woke up" SGI to really take IRIX and their industrial design to the next level. My all time favorite machine is still the Indigo (1). Something about the espresso machine shape and seeing one decked out with a DAT etc.. very cool. I just wish it didn't have a *cussword* proprietary keyboard and mouse. -Swift From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 12 13:09:59 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 20:09:59 +0200 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <20160326165736.A063718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160326165736.A063718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-03-26 17:57 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa : > OK, so we already had a dump of the M9301-YA ROMs, but were (apparently) > missing the others? > > So I fnally got one of my UNIBUS 11's running, and whipped up a small > program > to dump the ROM contents, and now have the -YB, -YF and -YH ROMs dumped. > I'm > in the process of disassembling them now. > I also have a YF card. It came from a PDP-11/10 and was sitting in location slot 3. I put it into my NC and there were no smoke coming out anywhere... I could access the contents but it didn't run very well. So either the CPU is still bad or the PROM contents are bad. Could you please direct me to your YF dumps so I could compare? Intel HEX would be fine. If you also have done a disassembly that would be very interesting. Thanks! > > (If anyone needs the contents in binary format, to blow new ROMs, let me > know, > and I can probably produce them if you give me the details on the format > you > need the data in.) > > Does anyone have any of the others - YC, YD, YE and YJ? > > If you're not up to dumping them, I can send you my small program > (currently > in .LDA format, but I can convert it to a script - it is not very long at > all > - for the console emulator in the M9301 series), which will do it - it > produces packed octal output, 8 words/line, so a very small output. > /Mattis > > Noel > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 12 13:24:53 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 13:24:53 -0500 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: References: <20160326165736.A063718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <000601d1ac7b$946d4900$bd47db00$@classiccmp.org> Do the M9312 roms help? www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/M9312 J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 1:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Noel Chiappa Subject: Re: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps 2016-03-26 17:57 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa : > OK, so we already had a dump of the M9301-YA ROMs, but were > (apparently) missing the others? > > So I fnally got one of my UNIBUS 11's running, and whipped up a small > program to dump the ROM contents, and now have the -YB, -YF and -YH > ROMs dumped. > I'm > in the process of disassembling them now. > I also have a YF card. It came from a PDP-11/10 and was sitting in location slot 3. I put it into my NC and there were no smoke coming out anywhere... I could access the contents but it didn't run very well. So either the CPU is still bad or the PROM contents are bad. Could you please direct me to your YF dumps so I could compare? Intel HEX would be fine. If you also have done a disassembly that would be very interesting. Thanks! > > (If anyone needs the contents in binary format, to blow new ROMs, let > me know, and I can probably produce them if you give me the details on > the format you need the data in.) > > Does anyone have any of the others - YC, YD, YE and YJ? > > If you're not up to dumping them, I can send you my small program > (currently in .LDA format, but I can convert it to a script - it is > not very long at all > - for the console emulator in the M9301 series), which will do it - it > produces packed octal output, 8 words/line, so a very small output. > /Mattis > > Noel > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 12 13:54:22 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 19:54:22 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <5733BDA5.4020209@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 12/05/2016 00:17, "Antonio Carlini" wrote: > On 12/05/16 00:05, Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> My memory's getting skewed with age, clearly. I can remember RKG's (Royal >> Kingdom of Geordies) finest 2 engineers upgrading the 8350s to 8550s and the >> passage of time has me convinced it was 'only' a backplane swap. I was >> purely a code monkey back then. One thing that definitely happened was the >> MD of this company was going to have his new VAXen removed again because >> they didn't have blinkenlights. > > The VAX 8200/8250/8300/8350 was a low-end BI-based system. > Put in one CPU and you had a VAX 8200; put in two and you had a VAX8300. > There was a mid-life kicker, which was a slightly faster CPU and that > gave you > the 8250/8350. I'm sure I put three CPUs in the one I had back at DEC and > it booted and (this is where I'm hazy) called itself a VAX 8370 OK, the mists of time are clearing, there was definite a cabinet swap at one point and I can recall wheeling some smaller cabs out into the warehouse because they'd been replaced by the 85xx cabs. The smaller ones hadn't lasted very long IIRC. This was the reason for the 85xx being threatened with removal, along with the blinkenlights. > VAX 8530 iirc. The VAX 8550 was the faster variant in the same box. > These systems > had a PRO variant for the console. They all used the NMI backplane and > so were > similar to (but not iirc upgradeable to) the VAX 88x0 series ("Polarstar"). Gotcha. > > These were all much taller boxes than the VAX 8200 series. > > BTW: well done for remembering RKG :-) My second home for a long while and I'm still friends with the engineers, Allan, Aiden, Alan, Mike, John etc. We had ales aplenty last year :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 12 14:01:23 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 21:01:23 +0200 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <000601d1ac7b$946d4900$bd47db00$@classiccmp.org> References: <20160326165736.A063718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000601d1ac7b$946d4900$bd47db00$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: 2016-05-12 20:24 GMT+02:00 Jay West : > Do the M9312 roms help? > > www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/M9312 > > > Unfortunately not. They are entirely different. M9301 is four PROMs that provide a 16 bit word but M9312 is four boot ROMS and one console emulator ROM that are are separated. There are logic that converts the unibus transaction into many 4 bit transactions. Thereby one can easily plugin another boostrap by just changing a PROM. With M9301 you had several different M9301 module, YA .. Yx /Mattis From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 12 14:12:08 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 15:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps Message-ID: <20160512191208.7871A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > I also have a YF card. ... I could access the contents but it didn't > run very well. So either the CPU is still bad or the PROM contents are > bad. Could you please direct me to your YF dumps so I could compare? They are on my "Miscellaneous Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11 Information" page: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html in the "ROM Dumps" section. > If you also have done a disassembly that would be very interesting. I haven't completely disassembled the -YF version, but the -YA is almost all done, so it should help. Let me know if you need to have the -YF fully disassmbled & commented, and I'll hop to it. Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 12 14:24:41 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 21:24:41 +0200 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <20160512191208.7871A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160512191208.7871A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-05-12 21:12 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa : > > From: Mattis Lind > > > I also have a YF card. ... I could access the contents but it didn't > > run very well. So either the CPU is still bad or the PROM contents > are > > bad. Could you please direct me to your YF dumps so I could compare? > > They are on my "Miscellaneous Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11 > Information" page: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html > > in the "ROM Dumps" section. > Perfect! I'll have a look. > > > If you also have done a disassembly that would be very interesting. > > I haven't completely disassembled the -YF version, but the -YA is almost > all > done, so it should help. > > Let me know if you need to have the -YF fully disassmbled & commented, and > I'll hop to it. > Very kind offer. It would be very nice with a listing if you have the time! > > Noel > /Mattis From mattislind at gmail.com Thu May 12 14:54:53 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 21:54:53 +0200 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: References: <20160512191208.7871A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-05-12 21:24 GMT+02:00 Mattis Lind : > > > 2016-05-12 21:12 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa : > >> > From: Mattis Lind >> >> > I also have a YF card. ... I could access the contents but it didn't >> > run very well. So either the CPU is still bad or the PROM contents >> are >> > bad. Could you please direct me to your YF dumps so I could compare? >> >> They are on my "Miscellaneous Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11 >> Information" page: >> >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html >> >> in the "ROM Dumps" section. >> > > Perfect! I'll have a look. > > >> >> > If you also have done a disassembly that would be very interesting. >> >> I haven't completely disassembled the -YF version, but the -YA is almost >> all >> done, so it should help. >> >> Let me know if you need to have the -YF fully disassmbled & commented, and >> I'll hop to it. >> > > Very kind offer. It would be very nice with a listing if you have the time! > I checked the contents in the machine versus your listing. Two locations have the high bit set for some reason, 165020 read 100501 and 165032 reads 106303. Trying to run halts the machine with 165102 in the front panel. Single stepping it it will step to 165106 but become non-responsive with the lights at 165106. I think this is because it had a bus fault. If I press START it will clear it up. So for now, it is not necessary with more disassembly. Unless you have som spare time of course. The fault occur in the lines which you already have done... You don't have a dump of the PROMs in Intel HEX? I need to reprogram a new chips since one seems to be failing. /Mattis From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 12 15:49:20 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 13:49:20 -0700 Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Man, I'd LOVE to have one of those. Sadly, I think I don't have the space. I'll have to stick to desk-side-ish machines. There is already an XL SGI (Terminator ONYX) in the garage. :( On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 12 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > Brown with 8 LED bar graphs for CPU load of the eight R3000 processors. > > Ah.... a sweet machine. That was the machine that I believe "woke up" SGI > to really take IRIX and their industrial design to the next level. My all > time favorite machine is still the Indigo (1). Something about the > espresso machine shape and seeing one decked out with a DAT etc.. very > cool. I just wish it didn't have a *cussword* proprietary keyboard and > mouse. > > -Swift > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 12 16:17:15 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 17:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps Message-ID: <20160512211715.05B1B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Re: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps > From: Mattis Lind > I checked the contents in the machine versus your listing. And now that I think of it, I wonder if the ROM in the board I dumped had any errors? I have two, I should dump the other one and compare - but I forget which one I dumped, and I fried one of them! :-( The board did 'work', but I only used the console emulator, and the serial line loader, so there might be an error elsewhere (e.g. in one of the disk bootstraps). > Two locations have the high bit set for some reason, 165020 read 100501 > and 165032 reads 106303. Well, the second is definitely wrong; not sure about the first, I'd have to figure out what it's doing with that data word. > Trying to run halts the machine with 165102 in the front panel. That's odd, that doesn't make any sense. > Single stepping it it will step to 165106 but become non-responsive > with the lights at 165106. Hmm, does that mean that it actually froze at 165102, or at 165106? (I.e. is the display the address of the current instruction, or the next one?) > I think this is because it had a bus fault. That shouldn't freeze the machine - unless you had a double bus fault (i.e. trying to push and old PS/PC, and the SP is gubbish). Try loading the SP with the address of some working memory before you start the test, and see what happens. You might also deposit 6/0/12/0 in locations 4-12, so that if it does see an illegal instruction or NXM, it will just halt. > So for now, it is not necessary with more disassembly. Unless you have > som spare time of course. Well, I'll keep working on it anyway. > You don't have a dump of the PROMs in Intel HEX? No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at a description of Intel HEX format, so I can whip up a converter program? (Which will also take an array of PDP-11 words, and split it up into the 4 different ROM chips, since each word is spread across all 4 chips.) I already have a program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just have to tweak that a bit. I'm going to need to start blowing ROMs soon (including some sets of 9301-YF PROMs, for the one I zorched), once I get my 29B hooked up, so I might as well start with this... Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 12 16:25:15 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 14:25:15 -0700 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <20160512211715.05B1B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160512211715.05B1B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On May 12, 2016 2:17 PM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > > You don't have a dump of the PROMs in Intel HEX? > > No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at a > description of Intel HEX format, so I can whip up a converter program? (Which > will also take an array of PDP-11 words, and split it up into the 4 different > ROM chips, since each word is spread across all 4 chips.) I already have a > program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just have to tweak that a bit. > Or you could just use the SRecord tool package to convert between binary / Intel hex / Motorala hex, and split and join images, among just about anything else you would want to do. http://srecord.sourceforge.net/man/man1/srec_examples.html From ethan at 757.org Thu May 12 16:38:29 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 17:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Man, I'd LOVE to have one of those. Sadly, I think I don't have the space. > I'll have to stick to desk-side-ish machines. There is already an XL SGI > (Terminator ONYX) in the garage. :( Onyx and Challenge XL are better. 16 or 32 little cpu bars on the LCD. So cool. -- Ethan O'Toole From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu May 12 15:07:23 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 16:07:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 (Josh Dersch) Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 14:27:49 -0700 > From: Josh Dersch > Subject: Re: PDP-11 > > > The 8{3|5}50s our biggest customer used had Pro380 VAX CONSOLES, I > remember > > our main menu system looked odd on them since they had a bitmapped > display. > > I've still got one of them I think, can't remember the last time I > powered > > it up but I'm pretty sure it was running TSX-11. > > > > While we're on that subject -- > > I have a friend locally with an 8550 that's missing the console Pro-380 > system; if anyone happens to have one (with the appropriate VAX interface > hardware) drop me a line... > > - Josh > Josh, I donated a Pro-380 VAX console to the RCS/RI crew about 15 years ago. They probably still have it. -- Michael Thompson From spacewar at gmail.com Thu May 12 21:58:35 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 20:58:35 -0600 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 Message-ID: I just got the new boards: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157668325096875 Differences of new version: * bezel is black with white legends * legend font is a bit larger and heavier * legends are above switches * switch PCB wiring errors fixed * right angle header * plastic caps installed on all toggles I assembled the new one with C&K switches that are more readily available (e.g., from Digi-Key and Mouser), but I don't like them as much. Originally I used switches with a V-bracket which makes alignment and assembly easier, and they have a uniform threaded bushing height. The more common toggle switches have a longer threaded bushing. This can be seen by comparing the edge-on views; for the more common switches without the V-bracket, the red switch body is seen. I'm soliciting input as to whether the switch legends should be changed from the vector font to a "real" font, and if so, what font and size is desired. From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 12 22:38:29 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 22:38:29 -0500 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> On 5/12/2016 9:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I just got the new boards: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157668325096875 > > Differences of new version: > > * bezel is black with white legends > * legend font is a bit larger and heavier > * legends are above switches > * switch PCB wiring errors fixed > * right angle header > * plastic caps installed on all toggles > > I assembled the new one with C&K switches that are more readily > available (e.g., from Digi-Key and Mouser), but I don't like them as > much. Originally I used switches with a V-bracket which makes > alignment and assembly easier, and they have a uniform threaded > bushing height. The more common toggle switches have a longer threaded > bushing. This can be seen by comparing the edge-on views; for the more > common switches without the V-bracket, the red switch body is seen. > > I'm soliciting input as to whether the switch legends should be > changed from the vector font to a "real" font, and if so, what font > and size is desired. Not sure if I am completely understanding the concerns with the switches, but: * I would install the switches and run the top nut out to the very end, then back the inside nut up to it on the other side of the bazel * Once all switches are installed, then insert the board and solder. Of course, this fails if the bezel has to be only a certain height above the PCB, but perhaps that is not critical and thus my idea has a chance of working. I'm not your market segment, but I think a better font would be welcome. I looked online for a bit, but saw no specific font that would have historical value, except Popular Electronics' font on the cover that month: http://www.sunrise-ev.com/photos/PopularElectronicsAug76.jpg Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From spacewar at gmail.com Fri May 13 01:13:49 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 00:13:49 -0600 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 9:38 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Not sure if I am completely understanding the concerns with the switches, > but: > > * I would install the switches and run the top nut out to the very > end, then back the inside nut up to it on the other side of the bazel > * Once all switches are installed, then insert the board and solder. Part of the problem is that with the commonly-available switches, the push-button has a significantly shorter bushing than the toggles. The switches I chose for the first version had the same length bushings, and had the V-bracket that makes it easier to assemble, but they are much harder to source. In general, there is little selection available when you want switches with both PCB-mount termination and a threaded bushing, as apparently that's not a common requirement. > I'm not your market segment, but I think a better font would be welcome. I > looked online for a bit, but saw no specific font that would have historical > value, except Popular Electronics' font on the cover that month: > > http://www.sunrise-ev.com/photos/PopularElectronicsAug76.jpg I wish I could find a high-res scan of that cover. Now that I think about it, my friend John probably has a physical issue I could borrow and scan. From brain at jbrain.com Fri May 13 01:30:15 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 01:30:15 -0500 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <57357477.20404@jbrain.com> On 5/13/2016 1:13 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 9:38 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> Not sure if I am completely understanding the concerns with the switches, >> but: >> >> * I would install the switches and run the top nut out to the very >> end, then back the inside nut up to it on the other side of the bazel >> * Once all switches are installed, then insert the board and solder. > Part of the problem is that with the commonly-available switches, the > push-button has a significantly shorter bushing than the toggles. But, is it so short that it would not touch the PCB when soldered? If not, I think you're OK. > Jim From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 13 01:40:08 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 07:40:08 +0100 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow Message-ID: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> I understand that DEC created a version of Windows for the Rainbow. Does anyone have this? Regards Rob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 13 03:01:33 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 09:01:33 +0100 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 13/05/2016 07:40, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > I understand that DEC created a version of Windows for the Rainbow. Does > anyone have this? None of the Rainbows I used had the option of a mouse, it was an item reserved for workstations back then, I see the wiki entry says that DEC ported Windows 1 but there's no footnote showing further evidence. I don't remember it being advertised anywhere either, the world was falling over the IBM PC by then. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 13 03:18:13 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 04:18:13 -0400 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 11:38 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 5/12/2016 9:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> I just got the new boards: >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157668325096875 Nice! > I'm not your market segment, but I think a better font would be welcome. I would agree (and I've built more than one 1802 board) > I > looked online for a bit, but saw no specific font that would have historical > value, except Popular Electronics' font on the cover that month: > > http://www.sunrise-ev.com/photos/PopularElectronicsAug76.jpg I made one of those once, about 12 years ago. I used Letraset dry transfer letters, which is what I remember the original Elf project had used. Someone on the list sent me a few used sheets and I used a few more numbers. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 13 03:32:42 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 09:32:42 +0100 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <20160512211715.05B1B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160512211715.05B1B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 12/05/2016 22:17, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Mattis Lind > > You don't have a dump of the PROMs in Intel HEX? > > No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at a > description of Intel HEX format, so I can whip up a converter program? (Which > will also take an array of PDP-11 words, and split it up into the 4 different > ROM chips, since each word is spread across all 4 chips.) I already have a > program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just have to tweak that a bit. Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/IntelHEX There's a description and also some code you could adapt. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri May 13 04:31:49 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 11:31:49 +0200 Subject: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c001d1ace2$4afff5d0$e0ffe170$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20160513093148.GA4484@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 07:40:08AM +0100, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I understand that DEC created a version of Windows for the Rainbow. Does > anyone have this? Have you seen: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?28472-Rainbow-Windows maybe getting a hold of Jeff "PrintStar" Armstrong could be a start. /P > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri May 13 04:02:59 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 10:02:59 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Hex file formats (Was: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps) Message-ID: <01Q04JRGRLHW00DGA5@beyondthepale.ie> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 12/05/2016 22:17, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Mattis Lind > > > > You don't have a dump of the PROMs in Intel HEX? > > > > No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at a > > description of Intel HEX format, so I can whip up a converter program? (Which > > will also take an array of PDP-11 words, and split it up into the 4 different > > ROM chips, since each word is spread across all 4 chips.) I already have a > > program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just have to tweak that a bit. > > Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/IntelHEX > There's a description and also some code you could adapt. > Does anyone recognise this hex file format from anywhere? #00002110F01140007D6C62B70608&2F #000CED52300119&4A #00113FCB1287ED6A87ED6A10F076&E4 $ As far as I can tell, the first four hex digits is a 16 bit address, followed by up to 48 hex digit pairs of data and the hex digit pair after & is a checksum. The $ appears to be an end of file marker. It came from a Z80 cross assembler which ran on VAX/VMS. Searching for information about it has turned up very little except for a reference on the DECUS website to: V00250 UCAMS: Universal Cross-Assembler for Microprocessors Version: February 1987 however, I don't think this is it. Does anyone have a better description of the file format or anything that might have produced it? Regards, Peter Coghlan From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri May 13 06:35:58 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 13:35:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Hex file formats (Was: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps) In-Reply-To: <01Q04JRGRLHW00DGA5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01Q04JRGRLHW00DGA5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote: > for information about it has turned up very little except for a > reference on the DECUS website to: > > V00250 UCAMS: Universal Cross-Assembler for Microprocessors > Version: February 1987 Oh yes, the good old "Universal Cross-Assembler f?r Mikroprozessoren der Universit?t Stuttgart" :-) That project began on the TR-440 and was ported to the VAX. Klemes has ported that to the PDP-8, too. Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 13 06:54:40 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 12:54:40 +0100 Subject: 11/83 RQDX3 RD-53 Jumpers Message-ID: Hi Does anybody know the jumper settings on a RD-53 on an 11/83 with an RQDX3 controller and an RX50 Rod From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 13 11:10:15 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 17:10:15 +0100 Subject: Replacement for a Corcom F2987A EMI Filter In-Reply-To: <77070757.1017328.1463002438444.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: <77070757.1017328.1463002438444.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: <00fa01d1ad31$efeaa4b0$cfbfee10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jarratt > RMA > Sent: 11 May 2016 22:34 > To: Discussion: Posts > Subject: Replacement for a Corcom F2987A EMI Filter > > I have two failed Corcom filters in two DEC Rainbows. I see some spares > available in the US, but shipping to the UK is likely to be prohibitive and I > would like if possible to find a modern equivalent. It is this one: > http://meci.com/corcom-12-20129-01-emi-line-filter-model-f2987a.html. > I have found an original filter on ebay in the US, shipping it here would cost about the same as buying a modern replacement. So I have a choice: 1. Fit a modern replacement, which won't fit exactly and won't look right, but will surely last a while. 2. Fit a working original, which will fit and will look right, but may fail on me. What is the longevity of these filters like in general? I am not asking about this specific make/model, although I have two failed ones (and two that are still good). Thanks Rob From miller-wd at verizon.net Fri May 13 10:27:16 2016 From: miller-wd at verizon.net (Walter Miller) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 11:27:16 -0400 Subject: Tape reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <154aaba9987-6af7-18091@webprd-m66.mail.aol.com> Will this one do? http://www.electronicsurplus.com/eeco-tr-9301b0dea-perforated-paper-tape-reader -----Original Message----- From: jwsmobile To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, May 11, 2016 6:58 pm Subject: Tape reader Does anyone here know how to order this device? It seems to still possibly be offered, but I am not sure how to order it. I'm not sure if the person is on the list, if so you can reply off list. Looked for faq or shopping or buy pointer, didn't find one. thanks JIm http://retropcdesign.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6 From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 13 11:54:59 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 11:54:59 -0500 Subject: Replacement for a Corcom F2987A EMI Filter In-Reply-To: <00fa01d1ad31$efeaa4b0$cfbfee10$@ntlworld.com> References: <77070757.1017328.1463002438444.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <00fa01d1ad31$efeaa4b0$cfbfee10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <573606E3.20604@pico-systems.com> On 05/13/2016 11:10 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I have found an original filter on ebay in the US, > shipping it here would cost about the same as buying a > modern replacement. So I have a choice: 1. Fit a modern > replacement, which won't fit exactly and won't look right, > but will surely last a while. 2. Fit a working original, > which will fit and will look right, but may fail on me. > What is the longevity of these filters like in general? Gee, I've NEVER had one fail in any of the gear I have. I did have an "X" capacitor fail in a big switching power supply, but this was just a capacitor on a board. I've never had a Corcom or other brand of power entry/line filter go bad. So, I think that one particular type might have had some kind of manufacturing defect. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 13 12:12:39 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 13:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps Message-ID: <20160513171239.D313A18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick >> No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at ^^^^^ >> a description of Intel HEX format > Or you could just use the SRecord tool package to convert between > binary / Intel hex / Motorala hex I had a look through the doc, but I couldn't find 'octal' anywhere... :-) And anyway, my format is not identical to either Intel or Motorola, so I'd have to write a converter _anyway_, to get from my format to something a tool would understand. (Converting my dumper to emit Intel instead of my format would still mean a lot of work, because I have all these boards dumped in my format - I'd have to swap them all into the machine to get Intel-format dumps.) Plus to which the M9301 ROM format is kind of wierd; the high addresses on the bus (173000 and up) go in the low locations in the ROM, and the low locations (165000 and up) go in the high, _and_ the low bits (0377) of each word (i.e. the two ROMs which hold the low bits) have to be inverted because of a kludge on the M9301 having to do with the way it writes the contents of the switch to the bus when the machine is starting. So all in all, it's just easier to... >> I already have a program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just >> have to tweak that a bit. Which turned out to be pretty easy - probably easier (for me, at least) than understanding the documentation on the SRecord tool page well enough to understand how to make it do what was needed... :-) > From: Pete Turnbull >> Can you point me at a description of Intel HEX format > Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/IntelHEX > There's a description and also some code you could adapt. Thanks for that; alas, by the time I saw it, my brain had turned on and I remembered this wonderful thing called 'Google', which had led me to info about the format! :-) Noel From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri May 13 12:44:32 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 13:44:32 -0400 Subject: Tape reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11 May 2016 at 21:58, jwsmobile wrote: > http://retropcdesign.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6 Massively off-topic (sort of), but that tape reader is really quite similar to the functioning of the KOI-18 reader for loading keys into crypto devices. Link for those wanting to know what I'm blathering about: Sorry for the off-topic-ness. Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri May 13 12:59:54 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:59:54 +0100 Subject: Backups Message-ID: Is it my imagination or do backups not get mentioned these days? Rod Smallwood From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri May 13 13:08:04 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:08:04 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Replacement for a Corcom F2987A EMI Filter In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 13 May 2016 11:54:59 -0500" <573606E3.20604@pico-systems.com> References: <77070757.1017328.1463002438444.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe25.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <00fa01d1ad31$efeaa4b0$cfbfee10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01Q0510N5SBC00DGA5@beyondthepale.ie> Jon Elson wrote: > Gee, I've NEVER had one fail in any of the gear I have. I > did have an "X" capacitor fail in a big switching power > supply, but this was just a capacitor on a board. I've > never had a Corcom or other brand of power entry/line filter > go bad. > > So, I think that one particular type might have had some > kind of manufacturing defect. > > Jon Can the machine in question operate on both 120V and 240V? If so, the filter would have much better operating margins on the lower voltage. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 13 13:18:19 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 12:18:19 -0600 Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/13/2016 11:59 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Is it my imagination or do backups not get mentioned these days? I THOUGHT IT IS ALL IN THE CLOUDS NOW DAYS: > Rod Smallwood I have windows here so I don't do backups because everything is hidden so well by the system. Where is file foobar? BEN. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 13 13:30:10 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:30:10 +0100 Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben > Sent: 13 May 2016 19:18 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Backups > > On 5/13/2016 11:59 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Is it my imagination or do backups not get mentioned these days? > > I THOUGHT IT IS ALL IN THE CLOUDS NOW DAYS: > > > Rod Smallwood > > I have windows here so I don't do backups because everything is hidden so well > by the system. > Where is file foobar? > > BEN. > > What has this got to do with Classic Computers.... Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 13 13:42:13 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 12:42:13 -0600 Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> References: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/13/2016 12:30 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > What has this got to do with Classic Computers.... > I don't hear tape drives going chunk chunk for backups for your favorte classic computer. > Dave I suspect most people are lucky to have working hard disk with the early classic computers. I suspect most if they can, back up to a PC. Ben. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Fri May 13 15:50:08 2016 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 20:50:08 +0000 Subject: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> I don't normally look at 5150's on eBay, but this one popped up in one of the ad tiles, and it caught my eye because I've never seen one that wasn't the standard beige. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-5150-Personal-Computer-WORKING-plus-accessories-/222114025128?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276 At first glance, it doesn't appear to be hand painted. Anyone on here know about such things? Were other colors available? Thanks! -Ben From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri May 13 15:53:16 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 13:53:16 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 with red case on eBay In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <012301d1ad59$79bae0c0$6d30a240$@net> > At first glance, it doesn't appear to be hand painted. Anyone on here > know about such things? Were other colors available? > It is hand painted and the owner is very proud of himself. It has been listed on and off for the past year with no one biting... -Ali From mspproductions at gmail.com Fri May 13 15:53:23 2016 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 16:53:23 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: Neat, but sure does look hand painted, look at the picture showing the back emblim. You can see the original beige showing through. On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Benjamin Huntsman < BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote: > I don't normally look at 5150's on eBay, but this one popped up in one of > the ad tiles, and it caught my eye because I've never seen one that wasn't > the standard beige. > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-5150-Personal-Computer-WORKING-plus-accessories-/222114025128?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276 > > At first glance, it doesn't appear to be hand painted. Anyone on here > know about such things? Were other colors available? > > Thanks! > > -Ben -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions (330)718-3064 (mobile) mspproductions at gmail.com KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 13 16:05:10 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 22:05:10 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20160512013151.02A1018C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160512013151.02A1018C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <063601d1ad5b$2305b1e0$691115a0$@gmail.com> > QBUS termination is a complex subject; when you have multiple backplane > sections, connected by cables, each section has 'termination'. That's what this > REV11-E card is; it's also the QBUS 'out' to the card in the 780 CPU which the > console -11 uses to control the /780 CPU. Why it's in the middle slot, I'm not > sure (unless things have been moved around)? > Pretty sure they have been moved.. > > M8044ee > > m7946 > > MSV11-?? (My list doesn't contain an '-EE', but it's some sort of small MOS > memory, Q18) > RXV11 (RX01 8" floppy disk controller) > > In theory, the M8044-EE should be an "MSV11-DE" (not "MSV11-EE", that would > be an M8045-EE), but none of my documentation, including the M8044 prints, > covers such a variant. Maybe I need to look in the /780 prints, it may be a > special variant for use in the /780 console machines. > The back of the board says M8045 5013128DP1 32K 18bit MOS memory > > M8192 > > LSI-11/73 CPU; a nice machine, if you can eventually get it running. You'll want > a bunch more memory (note that the M8044/8045 cards are Q18, and so you > can only have up to 256KB with them - they _WILL NOT WORK_ in a system > with more than 256KB in it). > > The REV-11 isn't needed in this configuration. The boot PROM for this machine > was actually on the card in the /780 CPU, so eventually you'll need a > replacement - something like a BDV11 or something (they are available, and > not too expensive). > These all seem to have vanished from E-Bay at present. > Noel From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Fri May 13 16:24:20 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 15:24:20 -0600 (MDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2016, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:> > At first glance, it doesn't appear to be hand painted. Anyone on here > know about such things? Were other colors available? I was so disgusted with IBM and other TLAs who I won't name for fear of being flame-blasted for the "beige orthodoxy". Most companies always acted like doing any industrial design or adding color would scare off their business customers. I guess soulless bean counters have to be surrounded by items just as boring and life-sucking as they are or they will spontaneously combust along with their checkbooks. The attitude is akin to the type of suit-wearers or HOA-lawn-preeners who want to *force* their thoughtless and wasteful conformity on everyone else. Hopefully, during the 80's punk rock and Iron Maiden nearly gave them a heart attack (at least there is that). (Why yes, sir I did have a mohawk.) In the 1980's and 1990's SGI was a bright shining exception and I love them for that early middle finger to the beige box priesthood. Apple/NeXT did a decent job, too. Once they became one and Jobs got his way, he seems to have set about claiming a significant space in the then-wilderness of PC industrial design. In the meantime, their stock went from @$30 a share in 98' into the stratosphere, splitting a few times along the way. Guess thinking about design wasn't such a bad idea. In a way I'm glad I didn't learn much appreciation for beige box machines. My house is already full enough of "pretty" junk. Having ugly junk would just add insult to injury and possibly lead to homicide by my SO. It's all in the eye of the beholder, though. Also, nowadays you get machines in all kinds of colors, shapes, and sizes. The only trouble is that, no matter what color or size, they are opaque, undocumented, low-quality, and crass. Be careful what you wish for, I guess. "Life is too short for beige boxes, b****y women, or bad beer." -Overheard at SIGGRAPH -Swift From spacewar at gmail.com Fri May 13 16:54:22 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 15:54:22 -0600 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 2:18 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I made one of those once, about 12 years ago. I used Letraset dry > transfer letters, which is what I remember the original Elf project > had used. Someone on the list sent me a few used sheets and I used a > few more numbers. I imagine almost everyone used Letraset. That doesn't help me much because Letraset made a zillion different fonts. In the absence of any details, I'll use some variant of Hevetica. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 13 17:20:39 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:20:39 -0400 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: > I was so disgusted with IBM and other TLAs who I won't name for fear of > being flame-blasted for the "beige orthodoxy". Most companies always acted > like doing any industrial design or adding color would scare off their > business customers. Do not blame the computer companies, blame the customers. Beige and gray were the colors they wanted. The bright dazzling colors of the 1960s and early 70s were gone, the earthtones of the late 1970s were phasing out, and the boring colors of the 1980s were starting to come into play. IBM did offer a choice of colors for much of their machine line (not the PC line, however) until the mid 1980s - blue (default), gray (2nd default), red, white, and yellow, and later brown and green (I have never seen either brown or green in the wild, but they are options in the catalog), but most customers wanted blue or gray. If so few customers wanted the other colors, it is easy to see why they were discontinued. > In the 1980's and 1990's SGI was a bright shining exception and I love > them for that early middle finger to the beige box priesthood. Keep in mind that while most of us think SGI's designs are super great, most of the customers outside the machine rooms thought they were, at best, "interesting". "Interesting" is a funny word... -- Will From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 13 17:52:24 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160513225224.AABAC18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade >> In theory, the M8044-EE should be an "MSV11-DE" (not "MSV11-EE", that >> would be an M8045-EE), but none of my documentation, including the >> M8044 prints, covers such a variant. > The back of the board says M8045 5013128DP1 32K 18bit MOS memory All M8044's I've ever seen say M8045 in the etch. The M8044 is the non-parity version ("MSV11-Dx"), and the M8045 is the parity version ("MSV11-Ex"), and for the M8044's, they just left one row of chips out. >> something like a BDV11 or something > These all seem to have vanished from E-Bay at present. Paul A has (or used to have) a bunch of them. Noel From scaron at diablonet.net Fri May 13 18:07:09 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: References: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2016, ben wrote: > On 5/13/2016 12:30 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> What has this got to do with Classic Computers.... >> > > I don't hear tape drives going chunk chunk for backups > for your favorte classic computer. > >> Dave > > I suspect most people are lucky to have working hard disk with > the early classic computers. I suspect most if they can, back up > to a PC. > Ben. > I don't keep any real data on the "exhibits" ... any data I care about, I keep a few different copies across a few different modern machines. PDFs, ROM images, software ... I have a ton of operating system CD-ROMs that I should probably start imaging, though. This has been on my to-do list for years now ... :O Best, Sean From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 13 18:14:37 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 16:14:37 -0700 Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <300A71F3-2F7D-4514-97F5-EBB8D3F32D5E@aracnet.com> > On May 13, 2016, at 10:59 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Is it my imagination or do backups not get mentioned these days? > > Rod Smallwood That?s not my experience, I find that?s a common topic. Maybe not here. Zane From kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com Fri May 13 18:59:57 2016 From: kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com (Kevin Griffin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 16:59:57 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: That thing is definitely pained. I never heard of IBM 5150 with other colors. On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Matt Patoray wrote: > Neat, but sure does look hand painted, look at the picture showing the back > emblim. You can see the original beige showing through. > > On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Benjamin Huntsman < > BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote: > > > I don't normally look at 5150's on eBay, but this one popped up in one of > > the ad tiles, and it caught my eye because I've never seen one that > wasn't > > the standard beige. > > > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-5150-Personal-Computer-WORKING-plus-accessories-/222114025128?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276 > > > > At first glance, it doesn't appear to be hand painted. Anyone on here > > know about such things? Were other colors available? > > > > Thanks! > > > > -Ben > > > > > -- > Matt Patoray > Owner, MSP Productions > (330)718-3064 (mobile) > mspproductions at gmail.com > KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri May 13 19:21:38 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 20:21:38 -0400 Subject: 11/83 RQDX3 RD-53 Jumpers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57366F92.90103@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > Does anybody know the jumper settings on a RD-53 on an 11/83 > with an RQDX3 controller and an RX50 I will cover just the two most usual hardware configurations: (a) BA23 box - 1st RD53 is DS3, 2nd RD53 is DS4 (a 6 button front panel is required or you can build your own) - never had to change anything on the RX50 when ONLY a single dual RX50 is used (b) BA123 box - 1st RD53 is DS3, 2nd RD53 is DS3 (they are the SAME and special BA123 READ ONLY switches are required) - never had to change anything on the RX50 when ONLY a single dual RX50 is used I set up a MINC system with an RD53 once - don't ask! The jumper was DS3. By the way, the RD53 is just a Micropolis 1335 (if I remember correctly) with R7 set as a zero ohm resistor so the RQDX2 and RQDX3 recognize the extra circuit. The above jumpers apply to all RD51, RD51, RD53 and RD54 drives with the RQDX1, RQDX2 and RQDX3 controllers. The RD53 can't be used with the RQDX1 and the RD54 requires the RQDX3. With the BA123 box, there is a special distribution panel (13th slot) for the hard drives and the floppies. If you don't have enough information, please ask. All of the above is from memory - there may be some mistakes! Did this help? If you make the mistake of having both RD5n drives as DS3 with the BA23 box when the drives are not WRITE PROTECTED, you will destroy the Low Level Format. I find it is impossible to forget that situation - you only need to do it ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jerome Fine From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri May 13 19:29:40 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 02:29:40 +0200 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 00:20, William Donzelli wrote: > Do not blame the computer companies, blame the customers. Beige and > gray were the colors they wanted. When companies buy, someone will have to approve (that is, provide the money). That's often the company's own beancounters.. Engineer: "We'll need this particular computer. This here model will do." Beancounter (looking in sales brochure): "Purple? We don't do that kind of thing here. This other model will do, surely" (points to beige version). From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri May 13 19:32:22 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:32:22 -0500 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: GE used black on their computers for the workmasters witch where IBM 5150's On May 13, 2016 7:29 PM, "Tor Arntsen" wrote: > On 14 May 2016 at 00:20, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Do not blame the computer companies, blame the customers. Beige and > > gray were the colors they wanted. > > When companies buy, someone will have to approve (that is, provide the > money). That's often the company's own beancounters.. Engineer: > "We'll need this particular computer. This here model will do." > Beancounter (looking in sales brochure): "Purple? We don't do that > kind of thing here. This other model will do, surely" (points to beige > version). > From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 13 19:42:31 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 17:42:31 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <57367477.10007@sydex.com> For the S/360 systems, there was a wide choice of colors. In fact, most of the S/360s I saw initially were that orangish-red. I've heard it referred to as "International Orange" in accordance with Federal Specification 595: http://www.fed-std-595.com/FS-595-Paint-Spec.html In the early 1970s, CDC went from a beige and gray motif to blue glass and fake woodgrain. NCR, Cray and Honeywell similarly had brightly-colored systems. Office interiors in the 1980s were often the bright primary upholstery, with exposed structure and plumbing being painted similarly bright colors. It was a bit much, reminiscent of the Pompidou centre in Paris. Styles change. I don't think much of deep blue as a color scheme. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri May 13 19:57:19 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 20:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) Message-ID: <20160514005719.8EE5F18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > Styles change. And like women's hem-lines, they eventually work their way back to a previous generations' (now semi-forgotten) style. I remember being amused when black became the 'new' 'cool colour' for PC's; back to the era of KA10's and early PDP-11's!! Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 13 20:06:57 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 May 2016, Tor Arntsen wrote: > Beancounter (looking in sales brochure): "Purple? We don't do that > kind of thing here. This other model will do, surely" (points to beige > version). If you are only going to have one color, then beige is preferable, followed by black, and quite a bit further back, white, and then blue. People may not want beige. But, the intensity of their reactions are much less extreme than the potential dislike for other colors. If a store has every color in inventory, fine. But just imagine what management wants to do when a customer says, "I came for Raspberry, but all that they had some Loquat, so I didn't buy it." Apple stores, with enormous inventory leverage could pull off an ADM3a in a fruit salad of colors. But, how do you supply small stores that only want a few in stock? "Mediocrity is less dangerous than innovation." You don't get in touble for buying IBM. You don't get in trouble for buying beige. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 13 20:11:52 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: > GE used black on their computers Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem just like an Apple? B&H was able to get away with a bluish color for their 500 series Filmosound projectors, but it was an uphill battle after the JANs and then the brown suitcases of the 200 and 300 series. School boards would rubber-stamp B&H equipment, but form committees before accepting something like an Apple. UNTIL they got established. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri May 13 20:16:03 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 20:16:03 -0500 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: Intel MDS was blue as well On May 13, 2016 8:11 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > GE used black on their computers >> > > > Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem just > like an Apple? > > B&H was able to get away with a bluish color for their 500 series > Filmosound projectors, but it was an uphill battle after the JANs and then > the brown suitcases of the 200 and 300 series. > > School boards would rubber-stamp B&H equipment, but form committees before > accepting something like an Apple. UNTIL they got established. > > > > From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 13 20:16:02 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 18:16:02 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: > On May 13, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem just like an Apple? I sold them in the early 80s. My memory is very fuzzy, but ISTR they were a licensed clone of the Apple ][. And they actually worked. --lyndon From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri May 13 20:46:40 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 03:46:40 +0200 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 03:16, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > >> On May 13, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem just like an Apple? > > I sold them in the early 80s. My memory is very fuzzy, but ISTR they were a licensed clone of the Apple ][. And they actually worked. They weren't even clones, they were the real deal. Apple II Plus computers produced by Apple for B&H for a time. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 13 21:00:15 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 21:00:15 -0500 Subject: Backups In-Reply-To: <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> References: <57f2e314-68e2-4a58-b020-f5a117f90ee3@jetnet.ab.ca> <05f701d1ad45$7be30800$73a91800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <573686AF.8000606@pico-systems.com> On 05/13/2016 01:30 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> > What has this got to do with Classic Computers.... > > Well, I still have the backup tape from my CP/M system. (Yes, I had a 9-track, 800 BPI Pertec tape drive on my CP/M system.) Jon From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri May 13 21:04:28 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 14:04:28 +1200 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 14 May 2016 at 00:20, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Do not blame the computer companies, blame the customers. Beige and >> gray were the colors they wanted. > > When companies buy, someone will have to approve (that is, provide the > money). That's often the company's own beancounters.. Engineer: > "We'll need this particular computer. This here model will do." > Beancounter (looking in sales brochure): "Purple? We don't do that > kind of thing here. This other model will do, surely" (points to beige > version). Companies other than SGI did 'interesting' colors. Here's something really obscure; bonus points to anyone who can identify it just from the photo. No cheating! And treble points for anyone who HAS one. A Prince's ransom if you have one for sale :-) - http://www.d1.dion.ne.jp/~r_high/memorial/panda/boxes.gif Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri May 13 21:06:21 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 22:06:21 -0400 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: Today, who has a colorful case on their modern PC? From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 13 21:20:49 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:20:49 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> > On May 13, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > > They weren't even clones, they were the real deal. Apple II Plus > computers produced by Apple for B&H for a time. Apple manufactured an OEM Apple ][+ ? Really? I was pretty sure the B&H's were an independent product. Apple licensed them to try to step on the clone market. I can't fathom Apple letting someone else sell their own product (modulo case colour) at a price that undercut the official product. I do recall now the local elementary & jr. high schools gobbled them up. (The B&H variant.) From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 13 21:22:26 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:22:26 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <57368BE2.1000900@sydex.com> On 05/13/2016 07:06 PM, william degnan wrote: > Today, who has a colorful case on their modern PC? Dunno--the ASUS Vento was pretty cool; very colorful without a right angle on the case. Too bad that it had the reputation of being junk. Can one still buy a Vento case? --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 13 21:34:54 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 21:34:54 -0500 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Apple manufactured an OEM Apple ][+ ? Really? I was pretty sure the B&H's were an independent product. Apple licensed them to try to step on the clone market. I can't fathom Apple letting someone else sell their own product (modulo case colour) at a price that undercut the official product. Every part but (iirc) the case was Apple's and Apple-branded. It was just a regular //+, except.... > I do recall now the local elementary & jr. high schools gobbled them up. (The B&H variant.) The story goes that Apple had trouble getting into certain educational markets because schools weren't used to budgeting for computers; but they did buy a lot of A/V equipment. Apple made a deal with well-known educational vendor B&H, who made black cases with a special A/V box on the back (a cluster of RCA connectors) and voila, there was a computer that a school could buy in the same lot as the Wollensak tape machines, 16mm projectors and those big headphones with the poofy white ear cushions. -j From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 13 21:36:00 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: >> Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem >> just like an Apple? On Fri, 13 May 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > I sold them in the early 80s. My memory is very fuzzy, but ISTR they > were a licensed clone of the Apple ][. And they actually worked. Yes, they were. They had a few specific changes that were thought to be necessary for classroom use, such as a non-detachable cord (theft of power cord was more of a worry then than it is now), a serious latch instead of velcro for the lid, . . . From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 13 21:40:10 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:40:10 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: > On May 13, 2016, at 7:34 PM, Jason T wrote: > > Apple made a deal with > well-known educational vendor B&H, who made black cases with a special > A/V box on the back (a cluster of RCA connectors) I don't remember the stack of RCA connectors, but yeah, Apple definitely rode on the coat tails of Bell & Howell 16mm movie (and 35mm film strip) projector sales :-) From useddec at gmail.com Fri May 13 21:43:16 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 21:43:16 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20160513225224.AABAC18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160513225224.AABAC18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I believe the boards were all designed as a M8045, which was the parity model, and the M8044 was on the same artwork, just missing a few bits to make it parity. On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Dave Wade > > >> In theory, the M8044-EE should be an "MSV11-DE" (not "MSV11-EE", > that > >> would be an M8045-EE), but none of my documentation, including the > >> M8044 prints, covers such a variant. > > > The back of the board says M8045 5013128DP1 32K 18bit MOS memory > > All M8044's I've ever seen say M8045 in the etch. The M8044 is the > non-parity > version ("MSV11-Dx"), and the M8045 is the parity version ("MSV11-Ex"), and > for the M8044's, they just left one row of chips out. > > >> something like a BDV11 or something > > > These all seem to have vanished from E-Bay at present. > > Paul A has (or used to have) a bunch of them. > > Noel > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 13 21:44:33 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: >> They weren't even clones, they were the real deal. Apple II Plus >> computers produced by Apple for B&H for a time. On Fri, 13 May 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Apple manufactured an OEM Apple ][+ ? Really? I was pretty sure the > B&H's were an independent product. Not independent. > Apple licensed them to try to step on the clone market. I can't fathom I doubt it. Apple licensed them as a way to get in the door of school systems. > Apple letting someone else sell their own product (modulo case colour) > at a price that undercut the official product. "undercut"??!? I seriously doubt that the B&H "Black Apple" was cheaper. But, it had B&H's credibility backing it up for skeptical school boards, who bought tons of B&H AV equipment, but didn't know what a "personal computer" was. > I do recall now the local elementary & jr. high schools gobbled them up. > (The B&H variant.) I knew a few teachers who got B&H Black Apples into the classroom, and THEN were able to get the school board to let them buy Apples, because they were cheaper, "just as good", and "completely compatible!" with the B&H. From radioengr at gmail.com Fri May 13 21:46:07 2016 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:46:07 -0700 Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps In-Reply-To: <20160513171239.D313A18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160513171239.D313A18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5b49d975-0a4b-4824-456c-229370077595@gmail.com> On 5/13/2016 10:12 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Glen Slick > > >> No, but I do have a un-annotated dump in octal. Can you point me at > ^^^^^ > >> a description of Intel HEX format > > > Or you could just use the SRecord tool package to convert between > > binary / Intel hex / Motorala hex > > I had a look through the doc, but I couldn't find 'octal' anywhere... :-) > > And anyway, my format is not identical to either Intel or Motorola, so I'd > have to write a converter _anyway_, to get from my format to something a tool > would understand. (Converting my dumper to emit Intel instead of my format > would still mean a lot of work, because I have all these boards dumped in my > format - I'd have to swap them all into the machine to get Intel-format dumps.) > > Plus to which the M9301 ROM format is kind of wierd; the high addresses on > the bus (173000 and up) go in the low locations in the ROM, and the low > locations (165000 and up) go in the high, _and_ the low bits (0377) of each > word (i.e. the two ROMs which hold the low bits) have to be inverted because > of a kludge on the M9301 having to do with the way it writes the contents of > the switch to the bus when the machine is starting. So all in all, it's just > easier to... > > >> I already have a program to read my octal dump things, so I'll just > >> have to tweak that a bit. > > Which turned out to be pretty easy - probably easier (for me, at least) than > understanding the documentation on the SRecord tool page well enough to > understand how to make it do what was needed... :-) > > > > From: Pete Turnbull > > >> Can you point me at a description of Intel HEX format > > > Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/IntelHEX > > There's a description and also some code you could adapt. > > Thanks for that; alas, by the time I saw it, my brain had turned on and I > remembered this wonderful thing called 'Google', which had led me to info > about the format! :-) > > Noel If you have a linux, cygwin, or something-or-other that uses GNU tools, the 'objcopy' utility in the Binutils package can translate between binary, tekhex, srec, ihex, etc. Rob Doyle From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri May 13 21:49:30 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 19:49:30 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: > On May 13, 2016, at 7:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > "undercut"??!? > I seriously doubt that the B&H "Black Apple" was cheaper. But, it had B&H's credibility backing it up for skeptical school boards, who bought tons of B&H AV equipment, but didn't know what a "personal computer" was. > >> I do recall now the local elementary & jr. high schools gobbled them up. (The B&H variant.) > > I knew a few teachers who got B&H Black Apples into the classroom, and THEN were able to get the school board to let them buy Apples, because they were cheaper, "just as good", and "completely compatible!" with the B&H. Maybe the outfit I was working for was lowballing the B&H price, but we definitely had the price advantage over all the Apple dealers. Now part of that might have been because we were the only Apple(-ish) dealer in Ft. McMurray AB, and the only alternatives were the *very* greedy Apple dealers in Edmonton (a five+ hour drive south). From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri May 13 22:05:15 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 05:05:15 +0200 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 04:20, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > >> On May 13, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> >> They weren't even clones, they were the real deal. Apple II Plus >> computers produced by Apple for B&H for a time. > > Apple manufactured an OEM Apple ][+ ? Really? Yes, look at this picture: http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/appleII-bell-and-howell/CIMG2745.JPG From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri May 13 22:08:28 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 05:08:28 +0200 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 04:34, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >> Apple manufactured an OEM Apple ][+ ? Really? I was pretty sure the B&H's were an independent product. Apple licensed them to try to step on the clone market. I can't fathom Apple letting someone else sell their own product (modulo case colour) at a price that undercut the official product. > > Every part but (iirc) the case was Apple's and Apple-branded. [..] Even the case, according to http://www.oldcomputers.net/bellandhowell.html "The normally beige case was colored black (only on the surface, it is still beige underneath)" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 13 23:26:25 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 00:26:25 -0400 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I imagine almost everyone used Letraset. They did. > That doesn't help me much > because Letraset made a zillion different fonts. They did. > In the absence of any details, I'll use some variant of Hevetica. That is probably a great start. The art from the Popular Science article should be a good guide. Here's a decent photo of a repro... http://www.cosmacelf.com/_Media/elf3_big_med_hr.jpeg Mine is missing some letters owing to how I got mine. I should figure out what I need and re-do my front panel. -ethan From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri May 13 23:26:45 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 00:26:45 -0400 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On 13 May 2016 at 22:06, william degnan wrote: > Today, who has a colorful case on their modern PC? If we exclude case modders, and people who build their own cases... Most "gaming" cases are slightly colourful. Still mostly one colour with highlights. Though the cases have very... interesting... design choices. A lot of time however you'll find colour in your components and of course the strange obsession with "Let's put LEDs on everything." Thus why a lot of cases marketed towards "gamers" have transparent plexi on the side. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 13 23:31:01 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 00:31:01 -0400 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Ever see one of those black computers from Hell and Bowel, that seem just > like an Apple? They _were_ an Apple - not a clone, but rebadged and with a few important mods (mentioned here by others with the RCA jacks and the power cord). The importance was there was often no budget for computer, but if you could order something from the B&H catalog, there *was* an A/V budget. Paperwork. It wasn't so much the "trust" in the B&H name, but the fact that you could use a P.O. and fill in your A/V accounting code and... *poof* a _computer_ shows up. Made it possible where other avenues were impossible. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 13 23:41:27 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 21:41:27 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <5736AC77.8010008@sydex.com> On 05/13/2016 09:26 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > A lot of time however you'll find colour in your components and of > course the strange obsession with "Let's put LEDs on everything." > Thus why a lot of cases marketed towards "gamers" have transparent > plexi on the side. It's not just LEDs, but intense "blue" LEDs. I'm starting to hate that color. --Chuck From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat May 14 00:02:25 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 01:02:25 -0400 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <5736AC77.8010008@sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <5736AC77.8010008@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 00:41, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's not just LEDs, but intense "blue" LEDs. I'm starting to hate that > color. > Blue? That's so pass?! Right now the popularity is to go full *RAINBOW!* with the RGB LEDs... Though yeah, intense blue is getting just a bit annoying; though I admit I'd love to see a DECdatasystem-570 version of the PDP-11/70 panel (i.e. "the blue one") with blue LEDs instead of the standard red; or bright white. If only because those colours would fit. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Sat May 14 00:11:55 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 23:11:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 May 2016, Tor Arntsen wrote: > Even the case, according to http://www.oldcomputers.net/bellandhowell.html > "The normally beige case was colored black (only on the surface, it is > still beige underneath)" I think it looks pretty classy. It matches my slide projector. :-) I agree with those who protest the gawdy blue-LED-ridden 'gamer' cases and designs. Those just don't cut it. Personally, I'd go for sustainable-wood, tempered glass, and okay, molded plastics if they are done well and it has an SGI badge on it :-) Inevitably, I'm drawn to designs using metal, wood, glass and other expensive materials that few but boutique computer case makers would dare contemplate. Heh, but now I hear one of my co-workers who is an old DEC expert saying "... back when computers were made out of wood ..." and I think of some that *were* (I can at least see them on the web) and yeah, okay, so I wasn't around in the 60's and 70's. Well, I was in a portion of the 70's but I was considerably occupied with being born and other quite serious matters like house-training and tooth-growing which I believe is a decent excuse for not remembering all of the fine machines back then. One should always take the time to have a decent birth. I figure, if you are going to have a nice interior one has to consider the space a computer rig takes up, even on a KVM. It's going to be a significant feature in the room. If it's not locked up in a cabinet, it's going to be seen quite a bit. Might as well afford the machine as much design consideration as the furniture, if not a tad bit more. I like computers more than (most) furniture. Though I do some woodworking and furniture done right is cool, too. If they can compliment each other, so much the better. Of course, this is all a desktop consideration. Servers, I have a different design sense for (mostly pragmatic). -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Sat May 14 00:21:11 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 23:21:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <584D24DB-E11F-4480-A565-3332BC8258CB@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > I don't remember the stack of RCA connectors, but yeah, Apple definitely > rode on the coat tails of Bell & Howell 16mm movie (and 35mm film strip) > projector sales :-) Scope out this picture if you have time: http://www.oldcomputers.net/pics/bandh-rear.jpg You can totally see the RCA jacks and other non-Apple-II-normal stuff going on back there. It's wacky looking and they totally got the "boring school A/V equipment" look down. However, now, in "retro" spect, (sorry) it looks a little cool. It's a bit like a Russian clone built like a brick ****hou**. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Sat May 14 00:27:44 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Fri, 13 May 2016 23:27:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <5736AC77.8010008@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 May 2016, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Blue? That's so pass?! Right now the popularity is to go full *RAINBOW!* > with the RGB LEDs... It's wrong and a crime against nature. I hate that kind of flea market bait. > Though yeah, intense blue is getting just a bit annoying; though I admit > I'd love to see a DECdatasystem-570 version of the PDP-11/70 panel (i.e. > "the blue one") with blue LEDs instead of the standard red; or bright > white. If only because those colours would fit. They would, and I agree that it'd be neat-looking to the right observer. It's interesting to compare the modern blinkenlights in datacenters to the flippers and diagnostic LEDs, component LEDs, and even SGI's front panel CPU graphs. My favorite era of "really cool display tech" was FL displays that were really popular in the late 70's and all of the 80's. Old spectrum analyzers and things like that could be very classy and slick looking (even today). Then there's vue-meters. Folks, we need more excuses to add them everywhere... metal ones with beautiful backlight displays etc.. Power is a good enough excuse. We need to monitor that, right? -Swift From spacewar at gmail.com Sat May 14 02:02:37 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 01:02:37 -0600 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: I wrote: > In the absence of any details, I'll use some variant of Hevetica. On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That is probably a great start. The art from the Popular Science > article should be a good guide. I can't find a decent scan of the cover of that issue. > Here's a decent photo of a repro... > http://www.cosmacelf.com/_Media/elf3_big_med_hr.jpeg That's Bill Buzbee's ELF. He did a nice job. I've studied it a bit more. The "R" in Helvetica isn't a good match, and I don't like it. Adelle Sans Bold and District Std. Demi look like better matches, but I don't want to spend that much money. I think I'll go with Liberation Sans Bold and/or Liberation Sans Narrow Bold. They look close enough, other than having a horizontal base bar for the "1", and I think I can live with that. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat May 14 03:00:46 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 02:00:46 -0600 Subject: COSMAC ELF switch panel v2 In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: I wrote: > I think I'll go with Liberation Sans Bold and/or Liberation Sans Narrow > Bold. They look close enough, other than having a horizontal base bar > for the "1", and I think I can live with that. Here's a PDF showing an ELF switch panel with Liberation Sans Bold: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/elf/panel.pdf The inner circles for the switches are the 250 mil diameter hole, and the outer circle show the size of a typical internal lock washer that would be used. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 14 03:10:45 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 09:10:45 +0100 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <57367477.10007@sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <57367477.10007@sydex.com> Message-ID: <01c301d1adb8$1e26c4e0$5a744ea0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 14 May 2016 01:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) > > For the S/360 systems, there was a wide choice of colors. In fact, most of the > S/360s I saw initially were that orangish-red. I've heard it referred to as > "International Orange" in accordance with Federal Specification 595: Most other IBM kit came in a range of colors, and I was told by an IBMer that the salesman should have a chain of color samples but I have never seen one. As I recently said in a previous E-Mail many local councils avoid "Blue" as it has political implications. Normally certain colors were standard, and choosing others could result in longer delivery times... > > http://www.fed-std-595.com/FS-595-Paint-Spec.html > > In the early 1970s, CDC went from a beige and gray motif to blue glass and > fake woodgrain. > > NCR, Cray and Honeywell similarly had brightly-colored systems. > > Office interiors in the 1980s were often the bright primary upholstery, with > exposed structure and plumbing being painted similarly bright colors. It was a > bit much, reminiscent of the Pompidou centre in Paris. > > Styles change. I don't think much of deep blue as a color scheme. > > --Chuck > > > Dave From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 14 07:25:46 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 08:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps Message-ID: <20160514122546.1F11118C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rob Doyle > the 'objcopy' utility in the Binutils package can translate between > binary, tekhex, srec, ihex, etc. Right, but the problem is that I had dumps which were what the PDP-11 CPU saw, but due to hardware oddities on the M9301 board, the _ROM contents_ were diferent: bits 1-8 (_not_ 0-7, which would have been simpler :-) have to be inverted. I'm not sure any existing tool could manage that! Speaking of hardware oddities in the M9301, it seems the Tech Manual (EK-M9301-TM-001) has an error: it seems to indicate that the first (low) words in the PROM should contain the first words at 173000 ("address locations 773000 .. are located in the lower 256 words of the PROM", pg. 2-7). However, looking at the prints, the signal "765XXX L" is fed into the high address bit of the PROMs, and looking at how it is generated (Fig. 2-8, pg. 2-8) it should be low when the low addresses (765xxx) are being read, so the low addresses in the PROM should correspond to 765xxx? Also, looking at Mattis' read-out of the actual PROMs, they have the code that's at 773000 at 0x100 in the PROM. So it does seem as if the PROMs aren't organized the way the Tech Manual claims... Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 14 12:30:08 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 10:30:08 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <5736AC77.8010008@sydex.com> Message-ID: <573760A0.70102@sydex.com> On 05/13/2016 10:27 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > They would, and I agree that it'd be neat-looking to the right > observer. It's interesting to compare the modern blinkenlights in > datacenters to the flippers and diagnostic LEDs, component LEDs, and > even SGI's front panel CPU graphs. My favorite era of "really cool > display tech" was FL displays that were really popular in the late > 70's and all of the 80's. Old spectrum analyzers and things like that > could be very classy and slick looking (even today). It seems that a number of the retro folks are fascinated by the 7-segment displays on cheap Taiwanese cases of the 80s and early 90s that can be made to display any number that you care to see, regardless of actual CPU clock speed (mine were set to display "Lo" and "Hi". Then there's the oscope tuning display on the Marantz 10B tuner. So eye candy has been with us for a long time. Note that the "look" back then was a brushed aluminum panel with matching knobs. Everyone had it. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Sat May 14 14:29:53 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 12:29:53 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation Message-ID: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> Hi all -- Got me an early MIPS workstation, an RC2030. I'm trying to track down a keyboard and mouse for it. The keyboard connector uses an 8-pin DIN connector. Anyone have any leads? (Or know what the pinouts and protocol might be?) Thanks, Josh From ed at groenenberg.net Sat May 14 13:23:59 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 20:23:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: References: <57354C35.6000506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <47893.10.10.10.2.1463250239.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Hi. After being sitting dormant for 5 years in pieces, it was time to reassemble my 11/34, but hit a problem (hung bus). What has been done so far : - removed all the cards from the backplane. - vacuum the backplane. - power up the BA11 and check the voltages. -> LTC is ok. -> ACLO & DCLO were 0V, replaced board in switch unit, ACLO & DCLO now ok. - measure voltage at back-plane with no cards, voltage reads 5.35 Volt, trimmed them down to 5.15 Volt (no load). - insert both CPU cards, KY11-LB card & bootstrap card, 5 full grant cards, DL11-W and bus terminator card. - power up the machine, voltages are 5.10 Volt, measured at the backplane. - run light is off - cntrl + boot shows register dump at printer. - sending a character to the console via 777566 does print it. All looks ok. - power down machine, add memory (M7981, 128KW) in slot 4, replacing a full grant card. - power up machine -> run light is on, does not get cleared by cntrl + halt. - power down & replace memory with grand card -> run light is off. - moving the memory card to slot 5 , 6, or 7 and fill the other slots with full grant cards, -> run light does stay on. - tried the same without the bus end termination card (as is suggested in the processor manual), no effect :( - tried a 2nd memory card (M8722, 128KW) in slot 4, 5, 6 or 7, no change. - visual checking the backplane wiring did not reveal any oddity. So what could be the problem here? The bus works without the memory, but with it, it gets a hung bus, arghhh... Any suggestion is welcome! Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 14 16:27:54 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 22:27:54 +0100 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14/05/2016 20:29, Josh Dersch wrote: > Got me an early MIPS workstation, an RC2030. I'm trying to track down a > keyboard and mouse for it. The keyboard connector uses an 8-pin DIN > connector. Anyone have any leads? (Or know what the pinouts and > protocol might be?) I don't know, but having seen quite a few older keyboards I'd guess that it's likely to be RS232 (+/- 12V) or RS423 (+/- 5V). Early SGIs and some 68000 machines I've seen elsewhere were like that, so a voltmeter might tell you something. Early SGIs, for example, were RS423 levels 600baud and up/down encoded (there's pinout and keycode tables in older IRIX manpages). -- Pete From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 14 16:41:10 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 17:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. Message-ID: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From Ed Groenenberg > - insert both CPU cards, KY11-LB card & bootstrap card, 5 full grant > cards, DL11-W and bus terminator card. > ... > - cntrl + boot shows register dump at printer. > ... > All looks ok I'm surprised the bootstrap ran OK with no memory at all in the machine. I vaguely STR that I had a machine that would not work like that, but maybe I'm wrong. (DEC bootstaps tend to do things like set the NXM vector, in low memory, so they can size memory; and when it gets the NXM (since there is no memory) from trying to touch the NXM vector, and tries to push the old PS and PC to service _that_, and gets _another_ NXM, that 'double bus fault' often causes many -11 processors to do a cheap suit) > power down machine, add memory (M7981, 128KW) What's an M7981? Did you mean an M7891 MS11-L? > - power up machine -> run light is on, does not get cleared by > cntrl + halt. This is where a UA11 would really help. I had similar issues with an -11/04, and the UA11 was a huge help in figuring out what's going on. One glance and you can see if a bus line is wedged, or something. > - power down & replace memory with grand card -> run light is off. Well, that's good sign - the memory card didn't fry anything, at least... > - tried a 2nd memory card (M8722, 128KW) Ooops. The MS11-M needs +/-12V, which is _not_ standard in most machines/backplanes). The EUB in the 11/24 and 11/44 (which this card is intended for) does have it. The really bad part is that those same pins usually carry +/-15V in most MUD backplanes. So hopefully you didn't fry it. It does have standard UNIBUS as well as EUB, but there's a jumper, IIRC. > So what could be the problem here? The bus works without the memory Two possibilities off the top of my head. i) The first memory card is bad (or configured incorrectly), or.. ii) The M7891 uses +/-15V as well as +5V? So maybe one of the other voltages is not so good? But you said the console worked, and I think that uses other voltages (at least, in EIA mode - not sure about 20mA, I never touch the stuff). Noel From north at alum.mit.edu Sat May 14 18:17:45 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 16:17:45 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 5/14/2016 2:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From Ed Groenenberg > > > - insert both CPU cards, KY11-LB card & bootstrap card, 5 full grant > > cards, DL11-W and bus terminator card. > > ... > > - cntrl + boot shows register dump at printer. > > ... > > All looks ok > > I'm surprised the bootstrap ran OK with no memory at all in the machine. I > vaguely STR that I had a machine that would not work like that, but maybe I'm > wrong. (DEC bootstaps tend to do things like set the NXM vector, in low > memory, so they can size memory; and when it gets the NXM (since there is no > memory) from trying to touch the NXM vector, and tries to push the old PS and > PC to service _that_, and gets _another_ NXM, that 'double bus fault' often > causes many -11 processors to do a cheap suit) If the bootstrap card is an M9312 with the standard console PROM, it does NOT require any memory to be present/accessible to get to the ODT prompt that prints out the registers and waits for a command. Only until you execute a device bootstrap command with 'diagnostics enabled' (the default) does the memory sizing/test/diagnostic code get exectuted. Listing: http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-248F1/23-248F1.lst So the system working to this level with no memory present is normal. > > > power down machine, add memory (M7981, 128KW) > > What's an M7981? Did you mean an M7891 MS11-L? > > > - power up machine -> run light is on, does not get cleared by > > cntrl + halt. > > This is where a UA11 would really help. I had similar issues with an -11/04, > and the UA11 was a huge help in figuring out what's going on. One glance and > you can see if a bus line is wedged, or something. Agreed, a bus probe would really be helpful in further debug. Given that the system does not even get back to the ODT prompt (which would not yet access memory) indicates that logic on the memory card is hanging the bus. Could be a bad bus driver interface chip (8641, etc). > > - power down & replace memory with grand card -> run light is off. > > Well, that's good sign - the memory card didn't fry anything, at least... > > > - tried a 2nd memory card (M8722, 128KW) > > Ooops. The MS11-M needs +/-12V, which is _not_ standard in most > machines/backplanes). The EUB in the 11/24 and 11/44 (which this card is > intended for) does have it. The really bad part is that those same pins > usually carry +/-15V in most MUD backplanes. So hopefully you didn't fry it. > It does have standard UNIBUS as well as EUB, but there's a jumper, IIRC. Bad idea to put this card in an 11/34. As indicated the +12V VDD rail on the memory chips is wired directly to the UNIBUS +15V line in the 11/34 (which can be set to +12V in the 11/44). So you placed +15V (or more likely up to +15.5V or so) onto the memory chip VDD lines. Some 16K chips had a 15V max spec on this pin, others only 13.2V. So it is possible you toasted so memory chips, or not, depending on manufacturer and their sensitivity to OV. In any event, DO NOT use this card again in the 11/34. It is not compatible with the backplane. > > So what could be the problem here? The bus works without the memory > > Two possibilities off the top of my head. i) The first memory card is bad (or > configured incorrectly), or.. ii) The M7891 uses +/-15V as well as +5V? So > maybe one of the other voltages is not so good? But you said the console > worked, and I think that uses other voltages (at least, in EIA mode - not > sure about 20mA, I never touch the stuff). > > Noel > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat May 14 21:38:38 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 19:38:38 -0700 Subject: DEC Correspondent LA12R-06 Ribbons Message-ID: I think I already know the answer to this ("no"), but is there any remaining source of usable, or at least restorable, ribbons for the DEC Correspondent printing terminal? The re-inking roller in the single ribbon that came with my printer is hard as a rock. Maybe I'll be able to restore the roller or fabricate a new one, but I wouldn't mind having more ribbons on hand in any case. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From davidk.collins at bigpond.com Sat May 14 21:39:47 2016 From: davidk.collins at bigpond.com (David Collins) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 12:39:47 +1000 Subject: News about hpmuseum.net In-Reply-To: <55c934.19c14b51.446582d9@aol.com> References: <55c934.19c14b51.446582d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <002301d1ae53$0c25fdb0$2471f910$@bigpond.com> A further update to the HP Computer Museum website. This weekend it appears the site was comprised and hacking files were found in the site. The site and associated mail accounts have been taken offline until the issue can be addressed Only a temporary outage but I can't say how long it will be yet. David Collins -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sent: Thursday, 12 May 2016 4:55 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: marc.verdiell at gmail.com Subject: Re: News about hpmuseum.net I am glad to see this effort of Jon's remain Independent. I believe he would have wanted it that way. Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 5/11/2016 11:50:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com writes: This is great news despite the sorrow. Thank you for that, the museum is such an awesome resource for HP collectors. I saw your video on the 2116 restoration were both Jon and you appear. We have at least one more at the CHM, just as a static display for now. I hope I can visit you in Melbourne one day. Marc Sent from my iPad > On May 10, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > The following was posted on hpmuseum.org this morning: > > *RE: Jon Johnston Passes * > As an update to the sad news of Jon Johnston's death, I can advise > that the HP museum and the hpmuseum.net website he built will be continued and maintained for the foreseeable future. > > Over the last 8 months I have worked with Jon in restoring items from his collection of equipment and, among a range of items, recently restored an HP2116A computer to working order - one of only two Jon was aware of in the world and the only one that's operational. > > At this stage we have not been able to access the website and put any notices or updates but that should be addressed shortly. > > Jon's wife has asked me to look after the museum and website for the foreseeable future and as much as possible, continue to develop the museum in line with Jon's vision and objectives. > > As a short background, I joined HP Australia in 1982 as a Customer Engineer maintaining HP3000s, HP250s, all peripherals, terminals etc. I stayed with HP for over 26 years (including 5 years in Palo Alto) in a range of Services roles and have many fond memories of the company and the people I worked with. > > While my ability to invest time into the museum is more limited than Jon's, I hope to honour both his memory and the legacy of the 'old HP' by keeping the museum going as best I can, hopefully with help from the HP interest groups across the world. > > David Collins > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat May 14 22:10:40 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 15:10:40 +1200 Subject: DEC Correspondent LA12R-06 Ribbons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I bought a few cases of those not all that long ago... Let me see if I can dig up the source. Mike On May 15, 2016 2:38 PM, "Mark J. Blair" wrote: I think I already know the answer to this ("no"), but is there any remaining source of usable, or at least restorable, ribbons for the DEC Correspondent printing terminal? The re-inking roller in the single ribbon that came with my printer is hard as a rock. Maybe I'll be able to restore the roller or fabricate a new one, but I wouldn't mind having more ribbons on hand in any case. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat May 14 22:30:05 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 20:30:05 -0700 Subject: DEC Correspondent LA12R-06 Ribbons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On May 14, 2016, at 20:10, Mike Ross wrote: > > I bought a few cases of those not all that long ago... Let me see if I can > dig up the source. Thanks, and I hope you can find the source! One of these days I'll try cleaning out the old dried ink in my ribbon's roller with some sort of solvent and then re-inking it, possibly by vacuum impregnation of some as-yet-undetermined type of ink. Even if it's restorable, I might wreck it with the wrong solvent or ink in the experimental process, so I would be happy to have some more ribbons in any case. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sat May 14 23:23:57 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:23:57 +1000 Subject: Softech p-System for Macintosh Message-ID: AEK recently uploaded this to Bitsavers (thanks Al!): http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/Softech/Macintosh_UCSD_Pascal.zip It was a surprise to re-learn of the port of UCSD p-System done for compact Macintosh. The diskettes were labelled: Softech Microsystems MacAdvantage UCSD Pascal UCSD Pascal 1 : V010.1B <-- diskette 1 UCSD Pascal 2 : V009.1B <-- diskette 2 It is not quite like the usual ports where the p-System ran stand-alone with its unique look-and-feel; this Macintosh port uses the System/Finder to host Applications that appear to mirror the functionality of the integrated programs from the p-System, so the editor is Editor, Pascal compiler is Compiler and so on. however, the Editor has Bill Duvall from Consulair Corporation in the About box. Bill/Consulair would later release the Lightspeed Pascal / C compilers (that were eventually sold to Symantec). This port dates from late 1984, and is running with System 1.1 and Finder 1.1g The p-System interpreter is sitting in the Pascal Folder along with a "Pascal Runtime", I guess similar to the usual p-System BIOS. Some screenshots here running via the vMac emulator: https://goo.gl/photos/UFPSru2aeTohQiLQ6 There are several posts on usenet about these early p-Systems ports, and some commentary about the Duvall Editor: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/fa.info-mac/JYqRwMNV1Y8/iMYwCb_I3XYJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/fa.info-mac/lMjtNcbIkBw/oUwObvvddIwJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/fa.info-mac/meJU-ITiDa0/U2dqBWKUK7wJ From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat May 14 23:43:12 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 21:43:12 -0700 Subject: CP/M for IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> Hello All, I've seen references to a CP/M port for the IBM Displaywriter in magazines of the era. Has anyone ever seen this beast in real life? Better yet anyone have a copy of it? From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sun May 15 00:34:02 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 15:34:02 +1000 Subject: CP/M for IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> References: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Ali wrote: > I've seen references to a CP/M port for the IBM Displaywriter in magazines of the era. Has anyone ever seen this beast in real life? Better yet anyone have a copy of it? Thanks for the reminder, I'd been meaning to send an email here and elsewhere calling out the re-discovery of "CP/M-86" for the IBM 6580 Displaywriter. I understand that CP/M-86 was intended to be an actual product for the IBM Displaywriter, but I've not found an IBM product code for it, and I don't recall during my searches that I found anyone who actually used it as a released product. It could be that IBM asked Digitial Research to do the demonstration port so they could assess whether there was any interest in it. I contacted one of the Phoenix BIOS team who had also done a port of MS-DOS to Displaywriter and was assured this never became a released product. As it happens, the demonstration port of "CP/M-86" for the IBM Displaywriter has been hiding in plain sight for over 10-years. I have been looking for it for at least 5+ years ever since I became interested in Displaywriter and managed to acquire one in Australia. >From time to time I trawl back through the usenet archives attempting to track down details of the Displaywriter and came across an interesting comment by the people who recovered some of the original DRI disks. This recovery resulted in these diskettes being imaged back in 2005. The comment made a reference to a couple of diskettes labeled (DRI) "concurrent CP/M 86 DW Demo, Data Drive B (right" - it was speculated as to what they were but it seems no one examined them further at the time. I was intrigued by the initials DW and downloaded them and took a look, it was clear they were for the Displaywriter and they booted fine once I copied them onto 2D media (I initially tried the image as Type 1 diskettes but that didn't work). I'm double-quoting CP/M-86 deliberately since the diskette image on the Internet is actually of a demonstration port of something more than merely CP/M-86, it is some hybrid (or transitional) MP/M-86 and Concurrent CP/M-86, I have some screenshots here of it running: https://goo.gl/photos/UCH2TnfBunPub6xNA DRI was I think developing CCP/M-86 in late 1982, and had derived it from the MP/M-86 codebase and this demonstration port seems to be of this alpha or beta code for CCP/M-86. Other than the keyboard, diskettes and the screen, I've not been able to discover the extent of driver support for Displaywriter hardware (comms, printer). The IBM Displaywriter is a complex machine with several (factory) configuration options, and it was not originally designed to host multiple operating systems or to be (as easily) re-configurable like the IBM 5150 PC. You purchased the Displaywriter with a specific set of options. I doubt the demonstration CP/M-86 port can do much more than be a dumb terminal to CCP/M-86. Anyhow, you want to look here: http://www.cpm.z80.de/source.html under this section: NEW 04/10/2005 Miscellaneous DRI disks You'll need to use Dave Dunfield's utilities or similar to image the diskettes onto the 8-inch format. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun May 15 00:34:48 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 22:34:48 -0700 Subject: HP41C Peripherals and Accessories? Message-ID: I just became the happy new owner of a nice old HP 41C calculator with a matching barcode wand. I haven't powered it up yet, as there's lots of battery compartment corrosion. I'm looking into getting one of the replacement flex circuit assemblies that have been made for it. I was quite curious about the 41C when I saw them in magazines, but I had never touched one before. My first HP calculator was a 28S, and I finally upgraded to a 48GX a couple of years ago. I think this 41C will be a fun addition to my collection once I get the battery compartment fixed up and get it running. If anybody has any interesting HP 41C peripherals or accessories available for trade, let's talk! eBay and I don't talk any more, so I need to find my new toys the old fashioned way. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun May 15 01:15:02 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 23:15:02 -0700 Subject: CP/M for IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: References: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> Message-ID: <015201d1ae71$1e7de680$5b79b380$@net> > I understand that CP/M-86 was intended to be an actual product for the > IBM Displaywriter, but I've not found an IBM product code for it, and I > don't recall during my searches that I found anyone who actually used > it as a released product. Nigel, Thank you for the excellent and informative reply. I am not sure if I can add much more to what you said except to point out the following article (which you are probably already aware of): https://books.google.com/books?id=ZjAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA3&ots=k86wo--ofc&dq=ibm%20displaywriter%20cp%2Fm-86&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false And this blurb: https://books.google.com/books?id=CDAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA32&ots=lUpxjJzVBa&dq=veritas%20displaywriter%20cp%2Fm-86&pg=PA32#v=onepage&q&f=false And then of course there are the ads by the newly formed company: https://books.google.com/books?id=YzAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA65&ots=YkC0gSX_4t&dq=veritas%20displaywriter%20cp%2Fm-86&pg=PA65#v=onepage&q&f=false It would seem that the product was ready to be released in retail form. However, it was never an IBM product (or apparently allowed to be sold along IBM products) hence the lack of an FRU. Also I have never been able to find a price or a store ad referencing the product. It is almost like the cassette version of "Typing Tutor". All indications are that the product was created and was meant to be sold but if it did it apparently the volume was only in the single digits.... -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun May 15 01:19:34 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 14 May 2016 23:19:34 -0700 Subject: CP/M for IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: References: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> Message-ID: <015301d1ae71$c2547f30$46fd7d90$@net> One more link before I turn in: https://books.google.com/books?id=8y8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA2&ots=LkXMmddRn6&dq=ibm%20displaywriter%20cp%2Fm-86&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q&f=true Apparently other companies were developing and selling SW for the CP/M-86 on the Dispalywriter. -Ali From abs at absd.org Sun May 15 03:18:14 2016 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 09:18:14 +0100 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14 May 2016 at 20:29, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Got me an early MIPS workstation, an RC2030. I'm trying to track down a > keyboard and mouse for it. The keyboard connector uses an 8-pin DIN > connector. Anyone have any leads? (Or know what the pinouts and protocol > might be?) Quite a few of the mipsco boxes used PS/2 connectors, but that would probably be a little less interesting :) I suspect if you could upload a picture of the ports and send a link to the list its likely someone may recognise it... From ed at groenenberg.net Sun May 15 01:23:39 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 08:23:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56076.10.10.10.2.1463293419.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Sat, May 14, 2016 23:41, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From Ed Groenenberg > > > - insert both CPU cards, KY11-LB card & bootstrap card, 5 full grant > > cards, DL11-W and bus terminator card. > > ... > > - cntrl + boot shows register dump at printer. > > ... > > All looks ok > > I'm surprised the bootstrap ran OK with no memory at all in the machine. I > vaguely STR that I had a machine that would not work like that, but maybe > I'm > wrong. (DEC bootstaps tend to do things like set the NXM vector, in low > memory, so they can size memory; and when it gets the NXM (since there is > no > memory) from trying to touch the NXM vector, and tries to push the old PS > and > PC to service _that_, and gets _another_ NXM, that 'double bus fault' > often > causes many -11 processors to do a cheap suit) Could that be done on later models? (i.e. 11/24 and up?) > > > power down machine, add memory (M7981, 128KW) > > What's an M7981? Did you mean an M7891 MS11-L? Yes, a typo, it is a M7891. > > > - power up machine -> run light is on, does not get cleared by > > cntrl + halt. > > This is where a UA11 would really help. I had similar issues with an > -11/04, > and the UA11 was a huge help in figuring out what's going on. One glance > and > you can see if a bus line is wedged, or something. Ah, that reminds me, I have an original DEC Unibus analyzer, which is one of those small suitcase sized boxes and has a display for all bus signals. Stupid that I didn't think about that. > > > - power down & replace memory with grand card -> run light is off. > > Well, that's good sign - the memory card didn't fry anything, at least... > > > - tried a 2nd memory card (M8722, 128KW) > > Ooops. The MS11-M needs +/-12V, which is _not_ standard in most > machines/backplanes). The EUB in the 11/24 and 11/44 (which this card is > intended for) does have it. The really bad part is that those same pins > usually carry +/-15V in most MUD backplanes. So hopefully you didn't fry > it. > It does have standard UNIBUS as well as EUB, but there's a jumper, IIRC. Ah, well it was not set for EBU mode, but ISTR that there is a jumper which selects for +12 or +15 volt. > > So what could be the problem here? The bus works without the memory > > Two possibilities off the top of my head. i) The first memory card is bad > (or > configured incorrectly), or.. ii) The M7891 uses +/-15V as well as +5V? So > maybe one of the other voltages is not so good? But you said the console > worked, and I think that uses other voltages (at least, in EIA mode - not > sure about 20mA, I never touch the stuff). Yes, both +5 and +15 is used and measure ok on the backplane. > > Noel > Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From ed at groenenberg.net Sun May 15 01:33:02 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 08:33:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: References: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <47507.10.10.10.2.1463293982.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Sun, May 15, 2016 01:17, Don North wrote: > On 5/14/2016 2:41 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From Ed Groenenberg >> >> > - insert both CPU cards, KY11-LB card & bootstrap card, 5 full >> grant >> > cards, DL11-W and bus terminator card. >> > ... >> > - cntrl + boot shows register dump at printer. >> > ... >> > All looks ok >> >> I'm surprised the bootstrap ran OK with no memory at all in the machine. >> I >> vaguely STR that I had a machine that would not work like that, but >> maybe I'm >> wrong. (DEC bootstaps tend to do things like set the NXM vector, in low >> memory, so they can size memory; and when it gets the NXM (since there >> is no >> memory) from trying to touch the NXM vector, and tries to push the old >> PS and >> PC to service _that_, and gets _another_ NXM, that 'double bus fault' >> often >> causes many -11 processors to do a cheap suit) > > If the bootstrap card is an M9312 with the standard console PROM, it does > NOT > require any > memory to be present/accessible to get to the ODT prompt that prints out > the > registers and > waits for a command. Only until you execute a device bootstrap command > with > 'diagnostics > enabled' (the default) does the memory sizing/test/diagnostic code get > exectuted. > > Listing: http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-248F1/23-248F1.lst > > So the system working to this level with no memory present is normal. > >> >> > power down machine, add memory (M7981, 128KW) >> >> What's an M7981? Did you mean an M7891 MS11-L? >> >> > - power up machine -> run light is on, does not get cleared by >> > cntrl + halt. >> >> This is where a UA11 would really help. I had similar issues with an >> -11/04, >> and the UA11 was a huge help in figuring out what's going on. One glance >> and >> you can see if a bus line is wedged, or something. > > Agreed, a bus probe would really be helpful in further debug. Given that > the > system does not > even get back to the ODT prompt (which would not yet access memory) > indicates > that logic > on the memory card is hanging the bus. Could be a bad bus driver interface > chip > (8641, etc). > I'll hook up the bus analyzer and see it there is something to see. >> > - power down & replace memory with grand card -> run light is >> off. >> >> Well, that's good sign - the memory card didn't fry anything, at >> least... >> >> > - tried a 2nd memory card (M8722, 128KW) >> >> Ooops. The MS11-M needs +/-12V, which is _not_ standard in most >> machines/backplanes). The EUB in the 11/24 and 11/44 (which this card is >> intended for) does have it. The really bad part is that those same pins >> usually carry +/-15V in most MUD backplanes. So hopefully you didn't fry >> it. >> It does have standard UNIBUS as well as EUB, but there's a jumper, IIRC. > > Bad idea to put this card in an 11/34. As indicated the +12V VDD rail on > the > memory chips > is wired directly to the UNIBUS +15V line in the 11/34 (which can be set > to +12V > in the 11/44). > So you placed +15V (or more likely up to +15.5V or so) onto the memory > chip VDD > lines. > Some 16K chips had a 15V max spec on this pin, others only 13.2V. So it is > possible you > toasted so memory chips, or not, depending on manufacturer and their > sensitivity > to OV. I'll label the card as 'possible not working' for a test later in a proper machine. > In any event, DO NOT use this card again in the 11/34. It is not > compatible with > the backplane. > >> > So what could be the problem here? The bus works without the >> memory >> >> Two possibilities off the top of my head. i) The first memory card is >> bad (or >> configured incorrectly), or.. ii) The M7891 uses +/-15V as well as +5V? >> So >> maybe one of the other voltages is not so good? But you said the console >> worked, and I think that uses other voltages (at least, in EIA mode - >> not >> sure about 20mA, I never touch the stuff). >> >> Noel >> > > Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun May 15 07:29:22 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 08:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. Message-ID: <20160515122922.049E118C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Don North > If the bootstrap card is an M9312 with the standard console PROM, it > does NOT require any memory to be present/accessible to get to the ODT > prompt that prints out the registers and waits for a command. Ah, right you are; I'm not familiar with the M9312 codes (you seem to have that all well in hand :-), I've only studied the M873 and M9301 codes. But the M9301 'console without testing' code does in fact look like it would run without any memory in the machine. (Which explains some odd features in the code - I'd always wondered about the 'unusual' subroutine caling sequence, but now I see it allows it to work without any memory.) > From: Ed Groenenberg > ISTR that there is a jumper which selects for +12 or +15 volt. Not that I am aware of - see the power circuitry in the drawings, MP-00742, pg. 25. Maybe you're thinking of the M7891 (MS11-L), which does have such a jumper? >> The M7891 uses +/-15V as well as +5V? > Yes, both +5 and +15 is used and measure ok on the backplane. Actually, having looked at the prints, it also uses either -5V or -12V/-15V (there's a jumper). So you might want to figure out i) which your system has (in a BA11-K box, if you have an H745 'brick' you will have -15V, if an H754 -5V; if a BA11-L box, different versions of the H777 provide different voltages, but I'm too lazy to check :-), and ii) check to make sure the - voltage is good too. Although I doubt the - voltage is causing this problem; I'm pretty sure only the memory chips use it, so it's it's not right, probably the memory would return bad data, is all. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 15 10:44:04 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 08:44:04 -0700 Subject: Softech p-System for Macintosh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/14/16 9:23 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > Bill/Consulair would later release the Lightspeed Pascal / C compilers > (that were eventually sold to Symantec). > Lightspeed was done by Think Technologies in Lexington, MA. Consulair is a completely different product. http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2010/3/13_Consulair_Mac_C.html Bit of triva, Bill wrote MPS on his personal Xerox Alto. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 15 11:17:24 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 09:17:24 -0700 Subject: CP/M for IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: <015301d1ae71$c2547f30$46fd7d90$@net> References: <91791jmxxf6oy8fe3q7oi8yf.1463287263275@email.android.com> <015301d1ae71$c2547f30$46fd7d90$@net> Message-ID: <5738A114.7040807@sydex.com> On 05/14/2016 11:19 PM, Ali wrote: > One more link before I turn in: > > https://books.google.com/books?id=8y8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA2&ots=LkXMmddRn6&dq=ibm%20displaywriter%20cp%2Fm-86&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q&f=true > > Apparently other companies were developing and selling SW for the > CP/M-86 on the Dispalywriter. I know that VEDIT was offered for the DW, but I'm not certain if it was done for the CP/M-86 version. Looking at the disk image, while I don't see anything resembling an ASCII-to-EBCDIC translation table, it's obvious that CP/M on the DW kept with the ASCII representation internally. This brings up the question of collating sequences and what to do about EBCDIC characters that have no corresponding ASCII representation. --Chuck From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sun May 15 11:20:18 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 02:20:18 +1000 Subject: Softech p-System for Macintosh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C3FB6CD-8D12-4647-B409-D240B3902E4D@retrocomputingtasmania.com> > On 16 May 2016, at 1:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Lightspeed was done by Think Technologies in Lexington, MA. > Consulair is a completely different product. > http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2010/3/13_Consulair_Mac_C.html Thanks Al for the correction, there is more here too: http://collaboration.cmc.ec.gc.ca/science/rpn/biblio/ddj/Website/articles/DDJ/1991/9103/9103h/9103h.htm And some detail about MacPascal (forerunner of THINK Pascal): http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2010/3/20_MacPascal_and_Think_Technologies.html > Bit of triva, Bill wrote MPS on his personal Xerox Alto. MPS? From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 15 12:30:42 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 10:30:42 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> On 5/14/16 12:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Got me an early MIPS workstation, an RC2030. I'm trying to track down a keyboard and mouse for it. The keyboard > connector uses an 8-pin DIN connector. Anyone have any leads? (Or know what the pinouts and protocol might be?) > > Thanks, > Josh there is a picture of it here https://books.google.com/books?id=IToEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT32&lpg=PT32&dq=mips+rc2030&source=bl&ots=UdhbMYdHZP&sig=MY1P4ipbj6PqBdoHAImi_MpuMsE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX9JvIzdzMAhVMXh4KHYsEBcAQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=mips%20rc2030&f=false looks like an AT keyboard and Logitech (serial?) mouse From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Sun May 15 12:28:06 2016 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:28:06 +0300 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <00006ced912f$dc5c168d$e3aed94c$@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Hello! You have a new message, please read steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun May 15 13:52:37 2016 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 21MX keys Message-ID: Does anyone here know if the front panel key for an E-series 21MX machine (2109E/2113E) will fit a 2117F machine? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun May 15 14:26:09 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 12:26:09 -0700 Subject: HP 21MX keys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > Does anyone here know if the front panel key for an E-series 21MX machine > (2109E/2113E) will fit a 2117F machine? > I have a 2113B in a rack. A Corbin 4T1427 key fits the lock on the rack front door and also the 2113B front panel. The same Corbin 4T1427 key also fits the front panel of the 2117F that I have. The keys look just like the ones in these pictures: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102668532 Is the 4T1427 number a code from which a new key could be created without an existing key to duplicate? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 15 15:24:04 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 16:24:04 -0400 Subject: Softech p-System for Macintosh In-Reply-To: <6C3FB6CD-8D12-4647-B409-D240B3902E4D@retrocomputingtasmania.com> References: <6C3FB6CD-8D12-4647-B409-D240B3902E4D@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: On 2016-05-15 12:20 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > >> On 16 May 2016, at 1:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Lightspeed was done by Think Technologies in Lexington, MA. >> Consulair is a completely different product. >> http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2010/3/13_Consulair_Mac_C.html > > Thanks Al for the correction, there is more here too: > http://collaboration.cmc.ec.gc.ca/science/rpn/biblio/ddj/Website/articles/DDJ/1991/9103/9103h/9103h.htm > > And some detail about MacPascal (forerunner of THINK Pascal): > > http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2010/3/20_MacPascal_and_Think_Technologies.html > >> Bit of triva, Bill wrote MPS on his personal Xerox Alto. > > MPS? > I'm sure he meant MDS. Which back then I used on a Mac XL, alongside Whitesmiths C (and a 1983 draft Inside Mac which I still have). --Toby From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 15 15:02:17 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 16:02:17 -0400 Subject: DEC H742a vs. h7420a power supplies Message-ID: I may have mentioned here that I have a PDP 11/40 with a DEC H742a and another with a h7420a power supply. The boards and configurations differ, but they seem to be functionally alike. Anyone have a second opinion? I have been treating them as if they are interchangeable. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sun May 15 16:07:21 2016 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:07:21 -0700 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My budget for this is around $1000 Regards, On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > Hi, > > I'm willing to spend a bit on an IBM 3290 at this point. If you have one, > and want to discuss "a bit", please contact me. > > Regards, > Kevin > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 15 16:11:10 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:11:10 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> On 5/15/16 10:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 5/14/16 12:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Hi all -- >> >> Got me an early MIPS workstation, an RC2030. I'm trying to track down a keyboard and mouse for it. The keyboard >> connector uses an 8-pin DIN connector. Anyone have any leads? (Or know what the pinouts and protocol might be?) >> >> Thanks, >> Josh > there is a picture of it here > > https://books.google.com/books?id=IToEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT32&lpg=PT32&dq=mips+rc2030&source=bl&ots=UdhbMYdHZP&sig=MY1P4ipbj6PqBdoHAImi_MpuMsE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX9JvIzdzMAhVMXh4KHYsEBcAQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=mips%20rc2030&f=false > > looks like an AT keyboard and Logitech (serial?) mouse > > You're right, that does look like your standard AT keyboard and Logitech mouse. I tried an AT keyboard just a couple of minutes back and it's close, but it doesn't work properly. The keyboard LEDs cycle while the 2030's running its (very lengthy) diagnostics but once I get to a prompt, I get gibberish from it -- looks like the keyboard scancodes are completely different. (Just for fun I tried an XT keyboard and that doesn't work at all...) It does give me a place to start hacking, though... Thanks! - Josh From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun May 15 16:22:02 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:22:02 +1200 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow good luck with that. In 20 years I've only ever seen *one* - mine. It was working a few years ago but it's currently dead and I'm not optimistic; power supply issues - but there also seems some kind of 'blotchiness' inside the plasma display sandwich itself - like something has delaminated or leaked or something. If you find a small herd of them I'd certainly be interested in getting hold of another one. Mike On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 9:07 AM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > My budget for this is around $1000 > > Regards, > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Kevin Bowling > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm willing to spend a bit on an IBM 3290 at this point. If you have one, >> and want to discuss "a bit", please contact me. >> >> Regards, >> Kevin >> -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 15 16:31:38 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:31:38 -0700 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5738EABA.2000203@gmail.com> I got mine off of eBay about 2.5 years ago for I think $80? It needed some repairs to the keyboard connector (some monkey had wrenched it off). I ended up trading it away... - Josh On 5/15/16 2:22 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Wow good luck with that. In 20 years I've only ever seen *one* - mine. > It was working a few years ago but it's currently dead and I'm not > optimistic; power supply issues - but there also seems some kind of > 'blotchiness' inside the plasma display sandwich itself - like > something has delaminated or leaked or something. > > If you find a small herd of them I'd certainly be interested in > getting hold of another one. > > Mike > > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 9:07 AM, Kevin Bowling wrote: >> My budget for this is around $1000 >> >> Regards, >> >> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Kevin Bowling >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I'm willing to spend a bit on an IBM 3290 at this point. If you have one, >>> and want to discuss "a bit", please contact me. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Kevin >>> > > From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun May 15 16:34:46 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 14:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Sold mine, working, to silent700 last year for $40, free shipping Where were you then?! Silent, I swear if you re-sell it I'll cut you... ;) Sent from Outlook for iPhone ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Kevin Bowling Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 9:07:21 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need IBM 3290 My budget for this is around $1000 Regards, On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > Hi, > > I'm willing to spend a bit on an IBM 3290 at this point. If you have one, > and want to discuss "a bit", please contact me. > > Regards, > Kevin > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 15 16:34:14 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 22:34:14 +0100 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/05/2016 22:11, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 5/15/16 10:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> looks like an AT keyboard and Logitech (serial?) mouse > You're right, that does look like your standard AT keyboard and Logitech > mouse. I tried an AT keyboard just a couple of minutes back and it's > close, but it doesn't work properly. The keyboard LEDs cycle while the > 2030's running its (very lengthy) diagnostics but once I get to a > prompt, I get gibberish from it -- looks like the keyboard scancodes are > completely different. (Just for fun I tried an XT keyboard and that > doesn't work at all...) If it's that close that it's safe to connect to a PC, you could determine the scancodes by running "showkey -s" under linux. It might be something like "Set 3" which is what SGIs used to use (and documented in their manpages). And I found a page somewhere (sorry, forgot where) that mentioned using a Logitech Trackman on a RC2030 which worked "99% of the time" so a fairly common mouse might work. Most of the Logitech mice I've seen like the one in the picture Al found, were quadrature mice (X+, X-, Y+, Y- and 2/3 button signals) but presumably there were serial mice in that style too. -- Pete From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sun May 15 16:49:33 2016 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 07:49:33 +1000 Subject: Softech p-System for Macintosh In-Reply-To: References: <6C3FB6CD-8D12-4647-B409-D240B3902E4D@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > I'm sure he meant MDS. Which back then I used on a Mac XL, alongside > Whitesmiths C (and a 1983 draft Inside Mac which I still have). I queried MPS since I don't see Bill Duvall listed as involved with MPS, or at least listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Programmer%27s_Workshop#History MPS, Macintosh Programmers System was the early name for MPW (Macintosh Programmers Workshop) "MPW was started in late 1985 by Rick Meyers, Jeff Parrish, and Dan Smith (now Dan Keller)" If it was MDS as you suggest then it would be good to have some background to fill in where it came from, is it mentioned anywhere else other than this? http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=3rd_Party_Developers_and_Macintosh_Development.txt It seems to lack a wikipedia entry. From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 15 17:01:17 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 15:01:17 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> On 5/15/16 2:34 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 15/05/2016 22:11, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On 5/15/16 10:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >>> looks like an AT keyboard and Logitech (serial?) mouse > >> You're right, that does look like your standard AT keyboard and Logitech >> mouse. I tried an AT keyboard just a couple of minutes back and it's >> close, but it doesn't work properly. The keyboard LEDs cycle while the >> 2030's running its (very lengthy) diagnostics but once I get to a >> prompt, I get gibberish from it -- looks like the keyboard scancodes are >> completely different. (Just for fun I tried an XT keyboard and that >> doesn't work at all...) > > If it's that close that it's safe to connect to a PC, you could > determine the scancodes by running "showkey -s" under linux. It might > be something like "Set 3" which is what SGIs used to use (and > documented in their manpages). > > And I found a page somewhere (sorry, forgot where) that mentioned > using a Logitech Trackman on a RC2030 which worked "99% of the time" > so a fairly common mouse might work. Most of the Logitech mice I've > seen like the one in the picture Al found, were quadrature mice (X+, > X-, Y+, Y- and 2/3 button signals) but presumably there were serial > mice in that style too. > Thanks for the info, I'll see if I can track down a compatible mouse. And scratch what I said about the keyboard -- recalling that there are "standards" and then there are "standards" I grabbed a different AT keyboard from the shelf and tried it, just in case. And it works perfectly. So, it's a "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). Thanks again, Josh From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 15 17:07:28 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 18:07:28 -0400 Subject: Macintosh Development System, MDS - was Re: Softech p-System for Macintosh In-Reply-To: References: <6C3FB6CD-8D12-4647-B409-D240B3902E4D@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: On 2016-05-15 5:49 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> I'm sure he meant MDS. Which back then I used on a Mac XL, alongside >> Whitesmiths C (and a 1983 draft Inside Mac which I still have). > > I queried MPS since I don't see Bill Duvall listed as involved with > MPS, or at least listed here: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Programmer%27s_Workshop#History > > MPS, Macintosh Programmers System was the early name for MPW > (Macintosh Programmers Workshop) > > "MPW was started in late 1985 by Rick Meyers, Jeff Parrish, and Dan > Smith (now Dan Keller)" > > If it was MDS as you suggest then it would be good to have some > background to fill in where it came from, is it mentioned anywhere > else other than this? Macintosh Development System, MDS, is the product that Bill, and Consulair, is known for. It included an editor and assembler and was a shrinkwrap Apple product (this is before MPW was a thing). The link posted by Al Kossow has more information. --Toby > > http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=3rd_Party_Developers_and_Macintosh_Development.txt > > It seems to lack a wikipedia entry. > From sales at elecplus.com Sun May 15 17:54:37 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 17:54:37 -0500 Subject: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace Message-ID: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> I am considering getting a multi-vendor marketplace setup. Right now I am looking for interested people who want to sell a few (or a lot) of vintage computer items and peripherals, like keyboards. The focus would be on vintage, although if you have some current things, those would be allowed too. I want to enable people from all over the world to list their items and collect payment without all the hassles of setting up an ecommerce site, and without the huge fees of eBay. Each seller would set their own shipping rates and countries they will ship to. Payments would go to the seller. The startup cost for this is about $1600, which I can pay, but in return for setting everything up and arranging the hosting, etc,. I would ask a small percentage (maybe 5%) to help defray the costs. This is the package I am looking at http://www.ixxocart.com/ixxo-multi-vendor. Please let me know your thoughts. The objective is to have one central place where people all over the world can offer others their surplus gear. This is NOT designed to be a marketplace for current items. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 500 Pershing Ave. Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 15 19:04:07 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:04:07 -0400 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a pair of them, but one is the oddball rectangular type. Being the completist jerk that I am, I need both. -- Will On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 5:07 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > My budget for this is around $1000 > > Regards, > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Kevin Bowling > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm willing to spend a bit on an IBM 3290 at this point. If you have one, >> and want to discuss "a bit", please contact me. >> >> Regards, >> Kevin >> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 15 19:07:16 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:07:16 -0400 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a pair of them, but one is the oddball rectangular type. Being > the completist jerk that I am, I need both. Oops, I should say "oddball off-center rectangular type". -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 15 19:13:40 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 17:13:40 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/15/16 3:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > And it works perfectly. So, it's a > "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). > What are the pinouts off the 8-pin connector? I'm guessing the mouse uses the other pins. Digging on the web, this has been asked with no replies for at least 10 years. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 15 19:16:00 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 17:16:00 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> Is there still an os on the disk? The MAME guys might be interested in simulating it if you dump the roms and the hd. It wasn't obvious from the picture in the picture if the V50 had an eprom as well. I'm gussing the intel 40 pin part by the keyboard is an 8031? On 5/15/16 5:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/15/16 3:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> And it works perfectly. So, it's a >> "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). >> > > What are the pinouts off the 8-pin connector? > I'm guessing the mouse uses the other pins. > > Digging on the web, this has been asked with no replies for at least > 10 years. > > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun May 15 19:33:19 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:33:19 +1200 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 12:07 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I have a pair of them, but one is the oddball rectangular type. Being >> the completist jerk that I am, I need both. > > Oops, I should say "oddball off-center rectangular type". I didn't know there was more than one type! Pics? http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 15 19:35:56 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:35:56 -0400 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is identical, just wider on one side by a few inches. The plasma screen is the same. I suspect an earlier version. -- Will On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 12:07 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> I have a pair of them, but one is the oddball rectangular type. Being >>> the completist jerk that I am, I need both. >> >> Oops, I should say "oddball off-center rectangular type". > > I didn't know there was more than one type! Pics? > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 15 19:40:55 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 17:40:55 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <57391717.5020905@gmail.com> On 5/15/16 5:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Is there still an os on the disk? Yes, a kind listmember had archived the QIC install media for MIPS RISC/OS, I installed from that. When I got the machine, the system disk was dead, and could not be coaxed back to life. > The MAME guys might be interested in simulating it if you dump > the roms and the hd. It wasn't obvious from the picture in the > picture if the V50 had an eprom as well. I'm gussing the intel > 40 pin part by the keyboard is an 8031? I can double-check this week and dump the ROMs. I'll also look at the extra pins on the keyboard. I'll note that the jack is labeled just "KEYBOARD." There is nothing labeled "Mouse" anywhere on this thing... - Josh > > > On 5/15/16 5:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 5/15/16 3:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> And it works perfectly. So, it's a >>> "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). >>> >> What are the pinouts off the 8-pin connector? >> I'm guessing the mouse uses the other pins. >> >> Digging on the web, this has been asked with no replies for at least >> 10 years. >> >> >> > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun May 15 20:01:23 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 18:01:23 -0700 Subject: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace In-Reply-To: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> References: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> Message-ID: <001001d1af0e$78433b50$68c9b1f0$@net> > without the huge fees of eBay. Each seller would > set their own shipping rates and countries they will ship to. Payments > would go to the seller. The startup cost for this is about $1600, which > I can pay, but in return for setting everything up and arranging the > hosting, etc,. I would ask a small percentage (maybe 5%) to help defray > the costs. Without wanting to sound negative on this I am not sure what is in it for the buyers? Most sellers tend to oversell their vintage equipment (we have all seen phrases like "worked 30 years ago selling as is", "like new but untested", etc. etc.). Vintage packing also requires expertise and hefty costs something sellers usually don't want to undertake (I've lost count of how many broken monitors I have received). Yes they could pass the cost on to the buyer but when you are already asking $300 for a run of the mill IBM 5150 you are going to be hard pressed to find someone who is also willing to fork over another $100 to ship it. Those "hassles" you refer to help buyers feel safe in bidding and buying on eBay and probably are essential in some of the high crazy final auction prices you see. Unless you plan to offset those protections somehow (e.g. all items must start at $0.99 auction and bidding increments are locked at $0.25, etc, etc) I don't see buyers rushing to pay large sums of cold hard cash to strangers half a world away without guarantees that are backed by the auction site. Even for the sellers I am not seeing the big draw eBay charges a 10% fee and you want to charge %5. If they are accepting PP for payments well then the buyers have a six month return period and many of the same protections, I mean hassles, as eBay. If people really just want to sell (and not think they have hit the jack pot because they have some tattered boxed non-working monochrome monitor) then the marketplace on the VCF is great. No fees and no headaches for the sellers and for the buyers reasonable to low prices (yeah no one is paying a $1000 for a KB on the marketplace) which is why most sellers don't like it. I would love to see a specialized vintage bazaar where you can find what you want at a reasonable price from trusted sources but the reality is that will never happen in e-commerce. For better and worse eBay has spoiled us and created certain expectation. The only way we could ever have a decent vintage exchange would be to have a swap meet which is of course its own logical nightmare (not to mention the massive over head costs). Just my two worthless cents... -Ali > This is the package I am looking at > > http://www.ixxocart.com/ixxo-multi-vendor. > Please let me know your thoughts. > > > > The objective is to have one central place where people all over the > world can offer others their surplus gear. This is NOT designed to be a > marketplace for current items. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 500 Pershing Ave. > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > From sales at elecplus.com Sun May 15 21:24:03 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 21:24:03 -0500 Subject: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace In-Reply-To: <001001d1af0e$78433b50$68c9b1f0$@net> References: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> <001001d1af0e$78433b50$68c9b1f0$@net> Message-ID: <05e401d1af1a$04003cf0$0c00b6d0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ali Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 8:01 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace > without the huge fees of eBay. Each seller would set their own > shipping rates and countries they will ship to. Payments would go to > the seller. The startup cost for this is about $1600, which I can pay, > but in return for setting everything up and arranging the hosting, > etc,. I would ask a small percentage (maybe 5%) to help defray the > costs. Without wanting to sound negative on this I am not sure what is in it for the buyers? Most sellers tend to oversell their vintage equipment (we have all seen phrases like "worked 30 years ago selling as is", "like new but untested", etc. etc.). Vintage packing also requires expertise and hefty costs something sellers usually don't want to undertake (I've lost count of how many broken monitors I have received). Yes they could pass the cost on to the buyer but when you are already asking $300 for a run of the mill IBM 5150 you are going to be hard pressed to find someone who is also willing to fork over another $100 to ship it. Those "hassles" you refer to help buyers feel safe in bidding and buying on eBay and probably are essential in some of the high crazy final auction prices you see. Unless you plan to offset those protections somehow (e.g. all items must start at $0.99 auction and bidding increments are locked at $0.25, etc, etc) I don't see buyers rushing to pay large sums of cold hard cash to strangers half a world away without guarantees that are backed by the auction site. Even for the sellers I am not seeing the big draw eBay charges a 10% fee and you want to charge %5. If they are accepting PP for payments well then the buyers have a six month return period and many of the same protections, I mean hassles, as eBay. If people really just want to sell (and not think they have hit the jack pot because they have some tattered boxed non-working monochrome monitor) then the marketplace on the VCF is great. No fees and no headaches for the sellers and for the buyers reasonable to low prices (yeah no one is paying a $1000 for a KB on the marketplace) which is why most sellers don't like it. I would love to see a specialized vintage bazaar where you can find what you want at a reasonable price from trusted sources but the reality is that will never happen in e-commerce. For better and worse eBay has spoiled us and created certain expectation. The only way we could ever have a decent vintage exchange would be to have a swap meet which is of course its own logical nightmare (not to mention the massive over head costs). Just my two worthless cents... -Ali My experience is that eBay charges actually amount to about 38% of the final sell price. They actually charge a percentage of the shipping fees too, not to mention fees for pictures, and anything else they can think of. It has been years since I sold much on eBay, but the experience really soured me. So far I am only asking people on a couple of trusted lists if they want to join. Sure eBay has tons of buyers, but if we get participants from all over the world to sell, then we will have lots of buyers too. Nothing is huge immediately; it takes time to grow. Rules can always be set for returns, and if a sellers is worth his salt, he knows how to pack. That being said, I have been packing things for over 20 years, and UPS still manages to smash or lose some things. That is just the way it goes. My thought was that it would be a great thing to have a vintage computer marketplace, one dedicated spot for items dedicated to old computers and related items, without having to sort through tons of unrelated stuff. How many times have you looked up 720K diskettes, and found recipes or something instead? What is to guarantee that an eBay seller knows what he is doing? Also, this is a fixed price system, not an auction. I looked at multi-seller auctions, and most of them fell short in several areas, or else they were about $10K or more to buy. That is beyond my means. The 5% is just to defray costs. I am not looking at making money off other sellers. Any effort like this is a lot of work. People mentioned that they would like to see a centralized selling system, and I am willing to make the leap, if people want to join me. -Cindy From halarewich at gmail.com Sun May 15 21:43:07 2016 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 19:43:07 -0700 Subject: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace In-Reply-To: <05e401d1af1a$04003cf0$0c00b6d0$@com> References: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> <001001d1af0e$78433b50$68c9b1f0$@net> <05e401d1af1a$04003cf0$0c00b6d0$@com> Message-ID: Basic fees for auction-style and fixed price listings Insertion fee (per listing, for any duration, including Good 'Til Cancelled*) Final value fee (per item) Your first 50 listings (per month) Free (exclusions apply) 10% of the total amount of the sale Maximum fee is $750 All additional listings over 50 (per month) $0.30 (Insertion fee credited back if your item sells, for eligible auction-style listings)

Virus-free. www.avast.com
On 5/15/16, Electronics Plus wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ali > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 8:01 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace > >> without the huge fees of eBay. Each seller would set their own >> shipping rates and countries they will ship to. Payments would go to >> the seller. The startup cost for this is about $1600, which I can pay, >> but in return for setting everything up and arranging the hosting, >> etc,. I would ask a small percentage (maybe 5%) to help defray the >> costs. > > Without wanting to sound negative on this I am not sure what is in it for > the buyers? Most sellers tend to oversell their vintage equipment (we have > all seen phrases like "worked 30 years ago selling as is", "like new but > untested", etc. etc.). Vintage packing also requires expertise and hefty > costs something sellers usually don't want to undertake (I've lost count of > how many broken monitors I have received). Yes they could pass the cost on > to the buyer but when you are already asking $300 for a run of the mill IBM > 5150 you are going to be hard pressed to find someone who is also willing > to > fork over another $100 to ship it. > > Those "hassles" you refer to help buyers feel safe in bidding and buying on > eBay and probably are essential in some of the high crazy final auction > prices you see. Unless you plan to offset those protections somehow (e.g. > all items must start at $0.99 auction and bidding increments are locked at > $0.25, etc, etc) I don't see buyers rushing to pay large sums of cold hard > cash to strangers half a world away without guarantees that are backed by > the auction site. > > Even for the sellers I am not seeing the big draw eBay charges a 10% fee > and > you want to charge %5. If they are accepting PP for payments well then the > buyers have a six month return period and many of the same protections, I > mean hassles, as eBay. > > If people really just want to sell (and not think they have hit the jack > pot > because they have some tattered boxed non-working monochrome monitor) then > the marketplace on the VCF is great. No fees and no headaches for the > sellers and for the buyers reasonable to low prices (yeah no one is paying > a > $1000 for a KB on the marketplace) which is why most sellers don't like it. > > I would love to see a specialized vintage bazaar where you can find what > you > want at a reasonable price from trusted sources but the reality is that > will > never happen in e-commerce. For better and worse eBay has spoiled us and > created certain expectation. The only way we could ever have a decent > vintage exchange would be to have a swap meet which is of course its own > logical nightmare (not to mention the massive over head costs). > > Just my two worthless cents... > > -Ali > > My experience is that eBay charges actually amount to about 38% of the > final > sell price. They actually charge a percentage of the shipping fees too, not > to mention fees for pictures, and anything else they can think of. It has > been years since I sold much on eBay, but the experience really soured me. > > So far I am only asking people on a couple of trusted lists if they want to > join. Sure eBay has tons of buyers, but if we get participants from all > over > the world to sell, then we will have lots of buyers too. Nothing is huge > immediately; it takes time to grow. Rules can always be set for returns, > and > if a sellers is worth his salt, he knows how to pack. That being said, I > have been packing things for over 20 years, and UPS still manages to smash > or lose some things. That is just the way it goes. > > My thought was that it would be a great thing to have a vintage computer > marketplace, one dedicated spot for items dedicated to old computers and > related items, without having to sort through tons of unrelated stuff. How > many times have you looked up 720K diskettes, and found recipes or > something > instead? What is to guarantee that an eBay seller knows what he is doing? > > Also, this is a fixed price system, not an auction. I looked at > multi-seller > auctions, and most of them fell short in several areas, or else they were > about $10K or more to buy. That is beyond my means. The 5% is just to > defray > costs. I am not looking at making money off other sellers. Any effort like > this is a lot of work. People mentioned that they would like to see a > centralized selling system, and I am willing to make the leap, if people > want to join me. > > -Cindy > > -- Chris Halarewich From derschjo at gmail.com Sun May 15 22:18:52 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:18:52 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57391717.5020905@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> <57391717.5020905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57393C1C.7040307@gmail.com> I disassembled the RC2030 to get at the motherboard and spent some time probing. This is a multi-layer board, quite thick, so tracing things down has proven difficult. Two of the three extra pins on the DIN connector for the keyboard are connected to a 74LS240, one as an input, one as an output; these pass through the 74LS240 and are routed through a pair of jumpers. Past this point I'm having a heck of a time figuring out what they're connected to -- it's nothing obvious like the serial controller. The third pin appears to be +5V. I also found this note in the MIPS PROM Monitor Reference (http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mips/PRM-01-DOC_PROM_Monitor_Ref_Jun92.pdf): "keyboard: Determines the type of keyboard used: MIPS (default) for the UNIX-style keyboard and AT for the AT-style keyboard (2030 and RC3x30). Default is AT for 4000 systems." So it looks like there are a couple of different keyboard types; it's possible that the UNIX-style keyboard uses all 8 pins, though that seems unlikely. Another interesting note regarding the "console" variable when set to "a" (though perhaps not applicable at all to the RC2030: " Enables all console devices. Do not use this value on a Rx3x30 system with a mouse attached to tty(0)." tty(0) is one of two serial ports on the rear. That would seem to indicate a serial mouse -- I don't know whether the note about RX3x30 systems means there was no serial option on the RC2030, or that this option simply wouldn't cause an issue with a serial mouse on the RC2030. I suppose the easiest way to solve this would be to find an old Logitech mouse and just try it. I need to get the X software packages loaded on this thing first... - Josh On 5/15/16 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 5/15/16 5:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Is there still an os on the disk? > Yes, a kind listmember had archived the QIC install media for MIPS > RISC/OS, I installed from that. When I got the machine, the system > disk was dead, and could not be coaxed back to life. > >> The MAME guys might be interested in simulating it if you dump >> the roms and the hd. It wasn't obvious from the picture in the >> picture if the V50 had an eprom as well. I'm gussing the intel >> 40 pin part by the keyboard is an 8031? > I can double-check this week and dump the ROMs. I'll also look at the > extra pins on the keyboard. I'll note that the jack is labeled just > "KEYBOARD." There is nothing labeled "Mouse" anywhere on this thing... > > - Josh > >> >> >> On 5/15/16 5:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> >>> On 5/15/16 3:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> And it works perfectly. So, it's a >>>> "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). >>>> >>> What are the pinouts off the 8-pin connector? >>> I'm guessing the mouse uses the other pins. >>> >>> Digging on the web, this has been asked with no replies for at least >>> 10 years. >>> >>> >>> >> > From useddec at gmail.com Sun May 15 20:59:36 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 20:59:36 -0500 Subject: DEC H742a vs. h7420a power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the main difference is the H7420, which is the newer of the two, can handle more current. On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 3:02 PM, william degnan wrote: > I may have mentioned here that I have a PDP 11/40 with a DEC H742a and > another with a h7420a power supply. The boards and configurations differ, > but they seem to be functionally alike. Anyone have a second opinion? I > have been treating them as if they are interchangeable. > Bill > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 15 22:05:15 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 23:05:15 -0400 Subject: DEC H742a vs. h7420a power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: to clarify, I mean the power supply controllers' boards, not the computers'. There is scant info about the h7420a On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 4:02 PM, william degnan wrote: > I may have mentioned here that I have a PDP 11/40 with a DEC H742a and > another with a h7420a power supply. The boards and configurations differ, > but they seem to be functionally alike. Anyone have a second opinion? I > have been treating them as if they are interchangeable. > Bill > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > > > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon May 16 00:16:31 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 15 May 2016 22:16:31 -0700 Subject: [IC] Mulri-Vendor Marketplace In-Reply-To: <05e401d1af1a$04003cf0$0c00b6d0$@com> References: <05d701d1aefc$c223c210$466b4630$@com> <001001d1af0e$78433b50$68c9b1f0$@net> <05e401d1af1a$04003cf0$0c00b6d0$@com> Message-ID: <000001d1af32$1cadc1b0$56094510$@net> > My experience is that eBay charges actually amount to about 38% of the > final sell price. They actually charge a percentage of the shipping > fees too, not to mention fees for pictures, and anything else they can > think of. It has been years since I sold much on eBay, but the > experience really soured me. Not sure when you last used eBay but for the casual seller (let us say 10-20 items a month) there is a straight 10% fee (yes including S&H - but that is because of those sellers who used to sell TVs for $0.01 w/ a $3000 S&H to avoid fees) and 12 free pictures. If you get fancy (bigger pictures, multiple categories, etc.) there is other fees. However, for your run of the mill guy trying to clear some extra stuff it is a flat 10%. > So far I am only asking people on a couple of trusted lists if they > want to join. Sure eBay has tons of buyers, but if we get participants > from all over the world to sell, then we will have lots of buyers too. I am not sure how this follows? If you have lots of participants with great goods yes you will attract buyers but getting buyers to pay without guarantees will be much harder. > Nothing is huge immediately; it takes time to grow. Rules can always be > set for returns, and if a sellers is worth his salt, he knows how to > pack. That being said, I have been packing things for over 20 years, > and UPS still manages to smash or lose some things. That is just the > way it goes. I agree with everything you said but the problem becomes how you handle returns and the well packed broken item. Right now eBay makes sure the buyer is protected which encourages people to buy on eBay. This is a hassle for sellers (and I am not going to debate the merits one way or the other but will acknowledge that the system is abused by some buyers) so if you eliminate the hassle you eliminate buyers willingness to spend. > > My thought was that it would be a great thing to have a vintage > computer marketplace, one dedicated spot for items dedicated to old > computers and related items, without having to sort through tons of > unrelated stuff. I agree with this completely. I am not sure if we need another site though. We could just encourage people to go to the VCF Marketplace. If it grows so that the Marketplace is inadequate then one can look at other options. How many times have you looked up 720K diskettes, and > found recipes or something instead? What is to guarantee that an eBay > seller knows what he is doing? Absolutely nothing but again eBay takes the risk out of the clueless seller for the buyer so not a huge problem. > Also, this is a fixed price system, not an auction. I looked at multi- > seller auctions, and most of them fell short in several areas, or else > they were about $10K or more to buy. If it is simply fixed price then I am again going to ask why reinvent the wheel? That is beyond my means. The 5% is > just to defray costs. I am not looking at making money off other > sellers. Any effort like this is a lot of work. People mentioned that > they would like to see a centralized selling system, and I am willing > to make the leap, if people want to join me. I agree that this is a major undertaking and will probably not be a major revenue source. My point wasn't that your 5% is unreasonable merely that it isn't a big difference from eBay costs. No matter where this is setup once it gets big enough it must generate some revenue to defray costs. I applaud you for taking the initiative. This list really does not have much in the way of selling but VCF, Amigabay, and a few others definitely do. It would be nice to hit one site or search engine to see all listings. -Ali From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 16 01:45:55 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 01:45:55 -0500 Subject: Need IBM 3290 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Sold mine, working, to silent700 last year for $40, free shipping > Where were you then?! > > Silent, I swear if you re-sell it I'll cut you... ;) It ain't going anywhere. But it's also missing the keyboard connector. Was this one Josh's? And most important - who's the monkey?? j From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 16 02:07:41 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:07:41 +0200 Subject: PDP-12 Space Wars Message-ID: <20160516070740.GA17307@Update.UU.SE> Hi I have some time scheduled to work on the PDP-12 at Update. It's uncertain if the machine works at the moment, it has had some intermittent problems, but if it does or we can get it working I would like to get Space Wars running on the thing. I have found source for a few versions for PDP-8 with LAB-8/e and for PDP-12: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/spacewar/ http://www.rcsri.org/collection/pdp-12/ I'm not sure if any of the PDP-8 versions will run without porting and I'm not even sure which assembler to use for the PDP-12 versions. So, I'm hoping someone reading this has somewhat fresh memory of what is needed to build and run space wars on a PDP-12. Perhaps someone even has an assembled version. We have LAP6-DIAL and means to transfer files to the PDP-12 over the serial interface. /P From spacewar at gmail.com Mon May 16 02:56:54 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 01:56:54 -0600 Subject: [OT] rasterize text in arbitrary fonts for Eagle CAD silkscreen Message-ID: I got tired of it being a royal pain in the ass to get fancy text (defined as anything other than the Eagle CAD built-in vector font) on the silkscreen of my boards. I wrote a Python 3 program (requiring cairocffi) to generate an Eagle CAD library file containing "devices" and "packages" of rasterized text, for use on silkscreen (or any other layer you choose). https://github.com/brouhaha/eagletext Requires Python 3, cairocffi Only tested on Fedora 23 x86_64 with Python 3.4.3, cairocffi 0.6, cffi 1.4.2, cairo 1.14.2 It will probably work on other reasonably recent Linux distributions. I haven't the slightest idea how to get it working on Windows or MacOS, though if cairocffi is available it may work. I also can't tell you, even on Linux, what arguments you can use with the "--font" option, other than that it has to be something the cairo library understands. From microtechdart at gmail.com Mon May 16 03:01:19 2016 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 03:01:19 -0500 Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ian, could you reply with a link to what you refer to as IRIS 68k hardware? This catches my attention, and I just want to make certain that this isn't related to what I've been working on. Maybe it's just a coincidence, because I've been restoring an IRIS OS (from Point 4), and independently, the Convergent Technologies Mightyframe, which is a 68k system. The 2 are not related, but when you mention them together, I'm really really curious what you mean. Thanks! -AJ On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > I know this is a long shot, but these have been on my list for a while. > > I am located in Seattle but am not opposed to arranging freight or local > pick-up. > > Would like to purchase but would also consider trades. > > Thanks, > > - Ian > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From derschjo at gmail.com Mon May 16 03:02:06 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 01:02:06 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57393C1C.7040307@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> <57391717.5020905@gmail.com> <57393C1C.7040307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57397E7E.6000604@gmail.com> And I've placed EPROM images at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mips/ There is not a separate ROM set for the V50. - Josh On 5/15/16 8:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I disassembled the RC2030 to get at the motherboard and spent some > time probing. This is a multi-layer board, quite thick, so tracing > things down has proven difficult. Two of the three extra pins on the > DIN connector for the keyboard are connected to a 74LS240, one as an > input, one as an output; these pass through the 74LS240 and are routed > through a pair of jumpers. Past this point I'm having a heck of a > time figuring out what they're connected to -- it's nothing obvious > like the serial controller. The third pin appears to be +5V. > > I also found this note in the MIPS PROM Monitor Reference > (http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mips/PRM-01-DOC_PROM_Monitor_Ref_Jun92.pdf): > > > "keyboard: Determines the type of keyboard used: MIPS (default) for > the UNIX-style keyboard and AT for the AT-style keyboard (2030 and > RC3x30). Default is AT for 4000 systems." > > So it looks like there are a couple of different keyboard types; it's > possible that the UNIX-style keyboard uses all 8 pins, though that > seems unlikely. > > Another interesting note regarding the "console" variable when set to > "a" (though perhaps not applicable at all to the RC2030: > > " Enables all console devices. Do not use this value on a Rx3x30 > system with a mouse attached to tty(0)." > > tty(0) is one of two serial ports on the rear. That would seem to > indicate a serial mouse -- I don't know whether the note about RX3x30 > systems means there was no serial option on the RC2030, or that this > option simply wouldn't cause an issue with a serial mouse on the RC2030. > > I suppose the easiest way to solve this would be to find an old > Logitech mouse and just try it. I need to get the X software packages > loaded on this thing first... > > - Josh > > > On 5/15/16 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On 5/15/16 5:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> Is there still an os on the disk? >> Yes, a kind listmember had archived the QIC install media for MIPS >> RISC/OS, I installed from that. When I got the machine, the system >> disk was dead, and could not be coaxed back to life. >> >>> The MAME guys might be interested in simulating it if you dump >>> the roms and the hd. It wasn't obvious from the picture in the >>> picture if the V50 had an eprom as well. I'm gussing the intel >>> 40 pin part by the keyboard is an 8031? >> I can double-check this week and dump the ROMs. I'll also look at >> the extra pins on the keyboard. I'll note that the jack is labeled >> just "KEYBOARD." There is nothing labeled "Mouse" anywhere on this >> thing... >> >> - Josh >> >>> >>> >>> On 5/15/16 5:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>>> >>>> On 5/15/16 3:01 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>>> And it works perfectly. So, it's a >>>>> "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). >>>>> >>>> What are the pinouts off the 8-pin connector? >>>> I'm guessing the mouse uses the other pins. >>>> >>>> Digging on the web, this has been asked with no replies for at least >>>> 10 years. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > From macro at linux-mips.org Mon May 16 03:05:17 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:05:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > And scratch what I said about the keyboard -- recalling that there are > "standards" and then there are "standards" I grabbed a different AT keyboard > from the shelf and tried it, just in case. And it works perfectly. So, it's > a "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). There's the XT keyboard (83 keys), the AT keyboard (84 keys; same as XT plus ) and the PS/2 keyboard (originally 101/102 keys, but other variants were later produced; this added the cursor pad, editing keys, , , etc.). The XT and AT keyboards have a different fixed scan code set each. For backwards compatibility with existing PC software the i8042 microcontroller used on original PC/AT systems to interface the keyboard translated AT scan codes on the fly to their XT equivalents; there's little hassle here, because the key set is almost the same. This translation can be disabled by software with a suitable command issued to the i8042, to reveal the native scan code set. With the PS/2 keyboard things turned different, the keyboard has 3 scan code sets to choose from. Again for backwards compatibility, it powers up in the AT scan code mode. Newly added keys are sent as multibyte codes with a 0xe0 prefix, which legacy software can ignore and still yield reasonable resultr; there are other quirks as well. Software can switch the keyboard into one of the other 2 modes, either XT or native PS/2, with a suitable command issued to the keyboard itself. For sensible results translation in the i8042 has to be disabled as well if using these modes. The XT mode is nothing fancy, again multibyte codes with a 0xe0 prefix are used and the same quirks are present, except XT scan codes are otherwise sent. The native PS/2 mode on the other hand presents a uniform single-byte scan code set across all keys, and the quirks are gone too. Unlike in the other modes individual keys can have their press, release and typematic events independently programmed. This is why some operating systems chose to reprogram the keyboard to use this mode. However, as usually, some hardware vendors did not feel compelled to implement this feature set correctly in keyboard firmware, because all they're cared was DOS/Windows compatibility and that software didn't bother to fiddle with the keyboard. Consequently some supposedly PS/2-compatible keyboards are hardwired to the AT mode. Worse yet, they return the success code for scan code switch commands, and happily ignore them, so flexible software can't figure out what's happening. And of course some i8042 firmware implementers "forgot" to implement the translation-disable command as well -- again with no means to detect the situation. So it looks to me like the first keyboard you've tried just suffers from crippled firmware. FWIW, Maciej From derschjo at gmail.com Mon May 16 03:27:30 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 01:27:30 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 1:05 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > On Sun, 15 May 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > And scratch what I said about the keyboard -- recalling that there are > > "standards" and then there are "standards" I grabbed a different AT > keyboard > > from the shelf and tried it, just in case. And it works perfectly. So, > it's > > a "standard" AT keyboard, but be careful which one you choose :). > > <..snipped..> > > So it looks to me like the first keyboard you've tried just suffers from > crippled firmware. > Well, in this case, I suspect the firmware in the MIPS -- the first keyboard I tried was the original, official, IBM AT 84-key keyboard which I'd expect to do things right :). - Josh > > FWIW, > > Maciej > From derschjo at gmail.com Mon May 16 03:49:04 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 01:49:04 -0700 Subject: DEC L2001 processor needed for stupid endeavor Message-ID: Hi all -- A year or so ago I picked up a VAXStation 3520 (a dual-processor machine), which I eventually upgraded to a 3540 (quad processor). Then I heard rumor it was possible to get it up to 6 processors, a configuration that was never produced or supported by DEC. I can confirm that 6 processors do work properly. As do 8 processors, for that matter... I believe that if I remove the graphics option, I can get it up to 10 processors, at which point I'm out of MBUS slots, thus hitting the maximum possible. I just kinda want to see it work. I'm still looking for something "useful" to do with 10 processors on VMS; it's a shame there was never a distributed.net client for VAX VMS :). I'm having trouble tracking down one more L2001 processor board. Anyone have one lying around they'd like to donate to a very stupid cause? Thanks, Josh (here's the output from the VAX 3580's startup with 8 processors: KA60 V1.2 F..E..D..C..B..A..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1..0 5 01010004 L2003 4 ? V1.3 1 SSC 00000001 2 DZ 00031200 ? 3 NI 19210770 ? 4 SCSI 00000901 5 SYS 00000001 Tests completed. 00-E1,P1 03-E1,P1 08-E1,P1 0B-E1,P1 0C-E1,P1 0F-E1,P1 10-E1,P1 13-E1,P1 00 CPU00 >>> From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 16 04:26:25 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 11:26:25 +0200 Subject: Seeking any SGI 4D "Twin Towers" system as well as early IRIS 68K hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160516092625.GB17307@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 03:01:19AM -0500, Microtech Dart wrote: > Ian, could you reply with a link to what you refer to as IRIS 68k hardware? I think this is unfortunately just a name clash. SGI's first generations of machines was called "IRIS" and ran an operating system called "GL2-WX.Y" where X.Y is a version number. GL-W2 is a System III unix port. The graphics subsystem was called "IRIS Graphics" Start reading here for mor info: http://www.sgistuff.net/hardware/systems/index.html > This catches my attention, and I just want to make certain that this isn't > related to what I've been working on. I'm quite certain it isn't. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong, maybe Convergent rebranded SGI's machines. It is not unheard of: http://hardware.majix.org/computers/sgi.iris/iris3130.shtml > Maybe it's just a coincidence, because I've been restoring an IRIS OS (from > Point 4), and independently, the Convergent Technologies Mightyframe, which > is a 68k system. The 2 are not related, but when you mention them > together, I'm really really curious what you mean. > > Thanks! > -AJ > From macro at linux-mips.org Mon May 16 06:58:25 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:58:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So it looks to me like the first keyboard you've tried just suffers from > > crippled firmware. > > > > Well, in this case, I suspect the firmware in the MIPS -- the first > keyboard I tried was the original, official, IBM AT 84-key keyboard which > I'd expect to do things right :). Then I think it's likely the machine actually wants a true PS/2 keyboard in its native scan code set 3. So there's nothing wrong with your IBM AT keyboard, and neither with your MIPSCO box, except that the two pieces are incompatible with each other. And software doesn't bother to detect the incompatibility -- as I recall an AT and a PS/2 keyboard can be told apart by issuing the right command or sequence of commands to the device and checking the response. I'd have to dig out my old code/notes to find the details as I did such stuff back in mid 1990s. Congrats on the trophy BTW -- as a MIPS person really I do recognise much value in it and I'm glad such a system survived. I wonder how many RC6260 machines, if any at all, are still around. Live specimens, preferably. Maciej From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon May 16 06:39:22 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 07:39:22 -0400 Subject: DEC H742a vs. h7420a power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 16, 2016 12:59 AM, "Paul Anderson" wrote: > > I think the main difference is the H7420, which is the newer of the two, > can handle more current. > Also, the h7420a is infinitely easier to work on, one just pops open the panel and the board folds out. The h742a is a bear to get to. Bill From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 16 09:37:11 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 08:37:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 Message-ID: Does anyone have a EIZO FlexScan EV2730QFX-BK monitor? I currently own an NEC MultiSync 17" LCD that does sync-on-green and works with my SGIs and other older systems. However, I'd love something bigger. The problem is that when I use widescreen monitors on systems which cannot display widescreen resolutions, everything is pretty distorted. My guess is that, since this is a newer monitor, it's not going to support sync-on-green. I'd still be tempted to get one, simply because I've grown to dislike widescreen for productivity uses (they are great for entertainment). However, at over $1k, it'd definitely have to support my retro gear to make it worth it. Now that I look, it says it only supports displayport and dual-link DVI. That means I'd need a scan converter to use it with older gear. Ugh. Well, anyone go down this road already? -Swift Some links to this beastie: http://www.eizo.com/products/flexscan/ev2730q/ http://www.amazon.com/FlexScan-EV2730QFX-Monitor-1920x1920-EV2730QFX-BK/dp/B00R58MLSY http://www.colorhq.com/Eizo-FlexScan-EV2730Q-26-5-LCD-Monitor-p/ev2730qfx-bk.htm From ethan at 757.org Mon May 16 09:46:51 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 10:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Does anyone have a EIZO FlexScan EV2730QFX-BK monitor? I currently own an > NEC MultiSync 17" LCD that does sync-on-green and works with my SGIs and > other older systems. However, I'd love something bigger. The problem is > that when I use widescreen monitors on systems which cannot display > widescreen resolutions, everything is pretty distorted. > My guess is that, since this is a newer monitor, it's not going to support > sync-on-green. I'd still be tempted to get one, simply because I've grown > to dislike widescreen for productivity uses (they are great for > entertainment). However, at over $1k, it'd definitely have to support my > retro gear to make it worth it. Now that I look, it says it only supports > displayport and dual-link DVI. That means I'd need a scan converter to use > it with older gear. Ugh. Well, anyone go down this road already? > -Swift Oh wow, the arcade world needs 4:3 27/29" and 25" LCDs pretty badly. That's a bit on the pricy side, don't need that kind of resolution for games that run at 640x480 :-) You could buy one then return it? -- Ethan O'Toole From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 16 10:44:01 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:44:01 -0600 (MDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Oh wow, the arcade world needs 4:3 27/29" and 25" LCDs pretty badly. Don't they just! I come across tons of folks wanting to replace their 4:3 CRT with an LCD in arcade cabinets all the time. I wonder why, with all the niche electronics in the world these days, some company hasn't made panels with 640x480 display resolution at large sizes as replacements. I guess the companies that make LCDs just aren't interested (yet). I have noticed a few niche CRT makers trying to fill that gap. CRTs look better than LCDs do in many cases because of the cheap anti-aliasing you get from the phosphor and interlacing (just my opinion). However, LCDs offer some nice advantages these days. > That's a bit on the pricy side, don't need that kind of resolution for > games that run at 640x480 :-) Large panels would be a godsend for me, I have early onset macular degeneration in my retinae. I get that folks think I'm crazy for not buying a 4k panel and then jacking up the fonts. What those folks don't seem to understand (at all) is that I've already tried it. Yes, Windows, MacOS, and to some extent Linux have features to crank the fonts way up in your windowing system and for most applications. However, FAR from what some people claim, those features are very inconsistent. Apps often set font sizes which are immutable, controls/icons (or anything bitmapped for that matter) still get shrunk *way* down, and older systems don't support that type of thing at all (and I use a lot of older systems via KVM switch). Using a 4k monitor also sucks (hard) when using emulation packages like dosbox or UAE. They appear in categorically *tiny* windows, and if you use a scaler for that resolution it eats (just about any) CPU doing all the interpolation etc.. and your emulation slows down noticeably. Then, you can bet you'll want a new video card to support an PC games you play because if you try to play them at 4k, they are almost certainly going to be sluggish due to the super-high resolution textures, rendering, blitting, etc.. Even with a monster GPU, they still don't usually play at 60FPS... If you ask me, for gaming, FPS > resolution. I'm tired of the attitude that I'm just ignorant of how to properly configure my zillion OSs to work with 4k (or that it's even worth doing - such a hassle in many cases on older OSs). I'm not working with MacOS 10.x and using 2 built-in "i" applications here, folks. If someone else is, good for them, but I'm not stupid just because I don't agree and I eschew 4k for very good personal reasons. They'd understand after developing some real vision impairment. When you are just about legally blind, you appreciate that an app has *no choice* but to display in a manner that you can SEE. Not to mention that a large, low-res 4:3 or 1:1 LCD would be undoubtedly be useful to arcade restoration and retro computing efforts. If it was as silly as some people act like, then I doubt Samsung 210T units would still go for high prices on Ebay et al. I'd MUCH rather find a modern monitor with lots of brightness and good contrast that runs at a "low" 4:3 resolution (say 1280x1024 max). If it supported sync-on-green that'd be even better. The old Samsung 210T is about the closest thing to what I want, but it's nowhere near the specs of modern LED based displays for brightness and contrast. Some jerkhole sales guy in the Apple store got offended when I mentioned (privately & quietly to a friend that was with me) that I hated the new "retina" displays on their gear not only because of the squint (and yes, I know MacOS has pretty much the best hi-res support going), but also that the screens lacked an anti-glare coating (if they have any, it doesn't work worth a darn). The guy comes over, interrupts us and gives me some angry rant about how people like me need to "get over" anti-glare coatings because they "distort" 4k displays. I told him that I wasn't speaking to him and didn't need his help or input, but if I was I'd say something like " Who gives a **** about the resolution if you can't see it over the glare? " That's what I get for going into an Apple store in the first place, though. My bad. > You could buy one then return it? I think I probably could. I also think that if I had to use a scan converter it might be possible to use older systems with it. The problem is that the scan-converter would need to support 1920x1920 and sync-on-green. That's something that I doubt any of them would do, but who knows what the future holds. The fact that this monitor is new and was made at all gives me some hope. -Swift From ethan at 757.org Mon May 16 11:00:57 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Don't they just! I come across tons of folks wanting to replace their 4:3 > CRT with an LCD in arcade cabinets all the time. I wonder why, with all > the niche electronics in the world these days, some company hasn't made > panels with 640x480 display resolution at large sizes as replacements. I > guess the companies that make LCDs just aren't interested (yet). I have > noticed a few niche CRT makers trying to fill that gap. CRTs look better > than LCDs do in many cases because of the cheap anti-aliasing you get from > the phosphor and interlacing (just my opinion). However, LCDs offer some > nice advantages these days. Yea, for the classic arcades (70s, 80s, early 90s?) people tend to stick with CRTs but for the later computer based games people use scaler boards and LCDs. They shove widescreen LCDs in the cabinets and end up with this tiny picture in the middle where the large 29" monitor used to be. > Large panels would be a godsend for me, I have early onset macular > degeneration in my retinae. I get that folks think I'm crazy for not > buying a 4k panel and then jacking up the fonts. What those folks don't > seem to understand (at all) is that I've already tried it. Yes, Windows, > MacOS, and to some extent Linux have features to crank the fonts way up in > your windowing system and for most applications. There are plenty of widescreen lower resolution panels? 720p and 1080p televisions? > Some jerkhole sales guy in the Apple store got offended when I mentioned > (privately & quietly to a friend that was with me) that I hated the new > "retina" displays on their gear not only because of the squint (and yes, I > know MacOS has pretty much the best hi-res support going), but also that > the screens lacked an anti-glare coating (if they have any, it doesn't > work worth a darn). The guy comes over, interrupts us and gives me some > angry rant about how people like me need to "get over" anti-glare coatings > because they "distort" 4k displays. I told him that I wasn't speaking to > him and didn't need his help or input, but if I was I'd say something like > " Who gives a **** about the resolution if you can't see it over the > glare? " That's what I get for going into an Apple store in the first > place, though. My bad. I think my MacBook has anti glare coating on the retina screen, but I don't really use it outside. There are apps that let you directly set the resolution but that just gets you tiny text. > I think I probably could. I also think that if I had to use a scan > converter it might be possible to use older systems with it. The problem > is that the scan-converter would need to support 1920x1920 and > sync-on-green. That's something that I doubt any of them would do, but who > knows what the future holds. The fact that this monitor is new and was > made at all gives me some hope. I don't think a SGI would support that resolution? Or are you driving it with a PC? That resolution is definitely non-standard. - Ethan From scaron at diablonet.net Mon May 16 11:08:02 2016 From: scaron at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 May 2016, Mike Ross wrote: > On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> On 14 May 2016 at 00:20, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> Do not blame the computer companies, blame the customers. Beige and >>> gray were the colors they wanted. >> >> When companies buy, someone will have to approve (that is, provide the >> money). That's often the company's own beancounters.. Engineer: >> "We'll need this particular computer. This here model will do." >> Beancounter (looking in sales brochure): "Purple? We don't do that >> kind of thing here. This other model will do, surely" (points to beige >> version). > > Companies other than SGI did 'interesting' colors. Here's something > really obscure; bonus points to anyone who can identify it just from > the photo. No cheating! And treble points for anyone who HAS one. A > Prince's ransom if you have one for sale :-) - > > http://www.d1.dion.ne.jp/~r_high/memorial/panda/boxes.gif > Nobody bit and my curiousity is definitely piqued ... what are those things? Best, Sean From ed at groenenberg.net Mon May 16 11:13:32 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 18:13:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11/34a hung bus problem. In-Reply-To: <47507.10.10.10.2.1463293982.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <20160514214110.EBEF918C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <47507.10.10.10.2.1463293982.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <33520.10.10.10.2.1463415212.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> A little progress on the 11/34a I have a PMK05 (Unibus exerciser) of which I forgot I had it..... I checked it out first and noticed that the aluminum casting around the 4 slot backplane was broken on both sides. After repairing it by making 2 sleeves of thin copper sheet and a cobblers hammer it became strong enough to insert the cards again. After hooking up the PMK05 to the unibus, the machine was powered up with the memory card, and the 'NPG' led was on. When done without the memory card, the NPG led stayed off, and others came on. The address & data leds changed after depositing a character in the transmit buffer of the DL11-W. Pics at www.groenenberg.net/download/PDP11/pic for thos who want to see the PMK05 in action. (BTW, the unibus in and out are misprinted on the silkscreen and are reversed). BTW2, is there someone who has a manual for it? I only have 2 (xeroxed) pages of information. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 16 11:47:31 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:47:31 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-16, at 9:08 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > On Sat, 14 May 2016, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> Companies other than SGI did 'interesting' colors. Here's something >> really obscure; bonus points to anyone who can identify it just from >> the photo. No cheating! And treble points for anyone who HAS one. A >> Prince's ransom if you have one for sale :-) - >> >> http://www.d1.dion.ne.jp/~r_high/memorial/panda/boxes.gif >> > > Nobody bit and my curiousity is definitely piqued ... what are those things? http://www.studiofynn.com/design/computer-server-panda Found with some judicious googling. I guess that's cheating, so no prize for me. Seems to have been purely a design concept, not a product. It's mentioned a couple times under EXHIBITIONS, AWARDS AND PUBLICATIONS here: http://www.studiofynn.com/about From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 16 11:49:47 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 10:49:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Yea, for the classic arcades (70s, 80s, early 90s?) people tend to stick > with CRTs but for the later computer based games people use scaler > boards and LCDs. I'm right there with them. There really isn't anything that's LCD-based that's come along to replace them or emulate the look... yet. I'm still hopeful, though. > They shove widescreen LCDs in the cabinets and end up with this tiny > picture in the middle where the large 29" monitor used to be. I've seen some hacks with widescreen monitors and folks using scalers that can do 4:3 conversions. Some of them are clever and look okay, but most of them look trashy and amateurish, IMO. > There are plenty of widescreen lower resolution panels? 720p and 1080p > televisions? Indeed, and some of them are pretty nice. I have an NEC widescreen that's made for signage that works pretty well. However, it's still widescreen (bad for retro & arcade). Many TVs would work pretty well if it weren't for one thing: overscan. They are just about all setup by default to overscan so much that your first 3-10 lines of text in an Xterm will be cut off the top and bottom of the screen. The signage monitors sometimes deal with this correctly (my NEC does). However, the vast majority of TV screens of any kind setup for low-res will need some serious video adjustments to "fix" the overscan (which usually isn't worth it). Also, those video-based screens often really wreck the colorspace. Now, of course, if you use MacOS or Windows, there are fixes for these issues. However, those aren't my only two OSs by a long shot. > I think my MacBook has anti glare coating on the retina screen, but I > don't really use it outside. Be aware of the issues described here, if you aren't already: http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/anti-reflective-coating-wearing-off-macbook-pro-displays/ Hey, if my eyes were still 20/20 I'd probably be doing the same, though. > There are apps that let you directly set the resolution but that just > gets you tiny text. MacOS has the nifty "scaled" mode for hi-res displays. That helps an awful lot (but only for OSX). > I don't think a SGI would support that resolution? Or are you driving it > with a PC? That resolution is definitely non-standard. Agreed. I don't know of any that would support that resolution. It's very funky and it'd only work if it were scaled from a 4:3 mode which would also cause distortion. I'll probably pass on this one since it's just too much hassle for my needs. However, I'm still glad to see something different come along in terms of aspect ratios. I thought we'd already lost that war for mainstream displays. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Mon May 16 11:57:11 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 10:57:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > http://www.studiofynn.com/design/computer-server-panda Found with some > judicious googling. I guess that's cheating, so no prize for me. I cheated and found it with Google Image Search but I kept quiet to let others run it down. > Seems to have been purely a design concept, not a product. They don't really talk about the guts, at all. Also by 1995 SGI had already made a lot of really cool machines, but hey others were free to join in! Honestly, I didn't say much because at first I thought they were coffee machines, espresso makers, or some other non-computer. Then when someone piped up with "Isn't that an early XYZ Frobniz-2000 with the acceleration module?" he'd spring it on them saying "GOTCHA! It's a coffee maker!" :-P -Swift From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 16 12:12:40 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 10:12:40 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5A867ADA-AC1A-4A0F-A22D-461C8CC8CB3C@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-May-16, at 9:57 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> http://www.studiofynn.com/design/computer-server-panda Found with some >> judicious googling. I guess that's cheating, so no prize for me. > > I cheated and found it with Google Image Search but I kept quiet to let > others run it down. > >> Seems to have been purely a design concept, not a product. > > They don't really talk about the guts, at all. Also by 1995 SGI had > already made a lot of really cool machines, but hey others were free to > join in! > > Honestly, I didn't say much because at first I thought they were coffee > machines, espresso makers, or some other non-computer. Then when someone > piped up with "Isn't that an early XYZ Frobniz-2000 with the acceleration > module?" he'd spring it on them saying "GOTCHA! It's a coffee maker!" :-P Seems it did get a little further than design concept. The "Archistrat" computer from "The Panda Project" of Boca Raton, Fl. Was getting a lot of press buzz around 1995. http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/37955/archistrat-computer http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1996-02-11/business/9602090578_1_panda-semiconductor-computer http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1994-11-25/business/9411220267_1_panda-project-crane-electronics-ibm http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941112&slug=1941368 http://ftp.vim.org/documents/published/unix-world/archives/95/review/004.html https://www.pinterest.com/pin/250301691762333319/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 16 12:41:18 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 10:41:18 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <573A063E.80801@sydex.com> On 05/16/2016 09:47 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > http://www.studiofynn.com/design/computer-server-panda How do these differ in substance from the ASUS Vento (a real product from 2005) that I cited days ago? https://www.asus.com/websites/global/products/2zMfr955ALh3EoZJ/TA-36_three.gif --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon May 16 13:11:41 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 13:11:41 -0500 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > > In the 1980's and 1990's SGI was a bright shining exception and I love > them for that early middle finger to the beige box priesthood. Apple/NeXT > did a decent job, too. Once they became one and Jobs got his way, he seems > to have set about claiming a significant space in the then-wilderness of > PC industrial design. In the meantime, their stock went from @$30 a share > in 98' into the stratosphere, splitting a few times along the way. Guess > thinking about design wasn't such a bad idea. > While I think the SGIs were cool at the time, their industrial design, colors and all from the 90's look rather dated today. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 16 13:19:09 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 11:19:09 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: <573A063E.80801@sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> <573A063E.80801@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2016-May-16, at 10:41 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/16/2016 09:47 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> http://www.studiofynn.com/design/computer-server-panda > > How do these differ in substance from the ASUS Vento (a real product > from 2005) that I cited days ago? > > https://www.asus.com/websites/global/products/2zMfr955ALh3EoZJ/TA-36_three.gif I'm not a proponent either way, but I guess the difference is the panda/archistrat was 10 years earlier and breaking the monoscape of the beige boxes, while the Vento was following a 7-year-old trend initiated by the iMac. From pete at petelancashire.com Mon May 16 11:51:03 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 09:51:03 -0700 Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A LCD panel manufacture will need an order for at least 25,000 and in most cases 100,000 units. That's just the LCD panel. 4:3 is getting to be the odd ball, and as time goes on unless there is a continuing industrial need your going to pay a lot. The only market today is HMI (Human Machine Interface) they max out at 15", the majority are 9" and 12". On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> Oh wow, the arcade world needs 4:3 27/29" and 25" LCDs pretty badly. > > Don't they just! I come across tons of folks wanting to replace their 4:3 > CRT with an LCD in arcade cabinets all the time. I wonder why, with all > the niche electronics in the world these days, some company hasn't made > panels with 640x480 display resolution at large sizes as replacements. I > guess the companies that make LCDs just aren't interested (yet). I have > noticed a few niche CRT makers trying to fill that gap. CRTs look better > than LCDs do in many cases because of the cheap anti-aliasing you get from > the phosphor and interlacing (just my opinion). However, LCDs offer some > nice advantages these days. > >> That's a bit on the pricy side, don't need that kind of resolution for >> games that run at 640x480 :-) > > Large panels would be a godsend for me, I have early onset macular > degeneration in my retinae. I get that folks think I'm crazy for not > buying a 4k panel and then jacking up the fonts. What those folks don't > seem to understand (at all) is that I've already tried it. Yes, Windows, > MacOS, and to some extent Linux have features to crank the fonts way up in > your windowing system and for most applications. > > However, FAR from what some people claim, those features are very > inconsistent. Apps often set font sizes which are immutable, > controls/icons (or anything bitmapped for that matter) still get shrunk > *way* down, and older systems don't support that type of thing at all (and > I use a lot of older systems via KVM switch). Using a 4k monitor also > sucks (hard) when using emulation packages like dosbox or UAE. They appear > in categorically *tiny* windows, and if you use a scaler for that > resolution it eats (just about any) CPU doing all the interpolation etc.. > and your emulation slows down noticeably. Then, you can bet you'll want a > new video card to support an PC games you play because if you try to play > them at 4k, they are almost certainly going to be sluggish due to the > super-high resolution textures, rendering, blitting, etc.. Even with a > monster GPU, they still don't usually play at 60FPS... If you ask me, for > gaming, FPS > resolution. > > I'm tired of the attitude that I'm just ignorant of how to properly > configure my zillion OSs to work with 4k (or that it's even worth doing - > such a hassle in many cases on older OSs). I'm not working with MacOS 10.x > and using 2 built-in "i" applications here, folks. If someone else is, > good for them, but I'm not stupid just because I don't agree and I eschew > 4k for very good personal reasons. They'd understand after developing some > real vision impairment. When you are just about legally blind, you > appreciate that an app has *no choice* but to display in a manner that you > can SEE. Not to mention that a large, low-res 4:3 or 1:1 LCD would be > undoubtedly be useful to arcade restoration and retro computing efforts. > If it was as silly as some people act like, then I doubt Samsung 210T > units would still go for high prices on Ebay et al. > > I'd MUCH rather find a modern monitor with lots of brightness and good > contrast that runs at a "low" 4:3 resolution (say 1280x1024 max). If it > supported sync-on-green that'd be even better. The old Samsung 210T is > about the closest thing to what I want, but it's nowhere near the specs of > modern LED based displays for brightness and contrast. > > Some jerkhole sales guy in the Apple store got offended when I mentioned > (privately & quietly to a friend that was with me) that I hated the new > "retina" displays on their gear not only because of the squint (and yes, I > know MacOS has pretty much the best hi-res support going), but also that > the screens lacked an anti-glare coating (if they have any, it doesn't > work worth a darn). The guy comes over, interrupts us and gives me some > angry rant about how people like me need to "get over" anti-glare coatings > because they "distort" 4k displays. I told him that I wasn't speaking to > him and didn't need his help or input, but if I was I'd say something like > " Who gives a **** about the resolution if you can't see it over the > glare? " That's what I get for going into an Apple store in the first > place, though. My bad. > >> You could buy one then return it? > > I think I probably could. I also think that if I had to use a scan > converter it might be possible to use older systems with it. The problem > is that the scan-converter would need to support 1920x1920 and > sync-on-green. That's something that I doubt any of them would do, but who > knows what the future holds. The fact that this monitor is new and was > made at all gives me some hope. > > -Swift > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 16 13:49:00 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 14:49:00 -0400 Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > 4:3 is getting to be the odd ball, and as time goes on unless there is > a continuing industrial need > your going to pay a lot. The only market today is HMI (Human Machine > Interface) they > max out at 15", the majority are 9" and 12". I have been keeping my eye out for older panels. I have some 12" 4:3 and a few 17" 4:3 and I think one 19" 4:3. Never run across anything larger. I don't think there were too many 4:3 LCD televisions sold larger than 19"... some, perhaps, but not many. The world switched to 16:9 about the time prices started falling on > 19" panels. I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No luck yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but give me a black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 16 13:56:43 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 11:56:43 -0700 Subject: beige rant (was Re: IBM 5150 with red case on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AF3225D@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <870D9AD8-7C50-43F1-9CEA-A04259EE0312@cs.ubc.ca> <573A063E.80801@sydex.com> Message-ID: <573A17EB.6070909@sydex.com> On 05/16/2016 11:19 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'm not a proponent either way, but I guess the difference is the > panda/archistrat was 10 years earlier and breaking the monoscape of > the beige boxes, while the Vento was following a 7-year-old trend > initiated by the iMac. It wasn't for want of trying. Back in 1980, the company I worked for investigated making a lower-priced system for more economical customers. Expandability would be limited, but we had to use existing parts. What was proposed was to paint (the shells were all structural foam, so even the "regular" stuff was painted) some triel systems various bright colors, including red, orange, green and blue. These were turned over to marketing for customer reactions. The dogs wouldn't eat it. Same box as the beige and brown ones, just a different color. No one surveyed displayed any interest at all. Some actually hated the things. That probably explains IBM's abandonment of custom colors for their mainframes. Don't blame the manufacturers. I note that no one ever proposed a bright yellow case. Some made a point of the lack of color. Witness the Rair "Black Box". --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 16 14:04:58 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:04:58 -0700 Subject: ISO: Keyboard/mouse for MIPS RC2030 workstation In-Reply-To: <57397E7E.6000604@gmail.com> References: <57377CB1.3020109@gmail.com> <69c60590-b243-fe76-b759-b4040a3a160f@bitsavers.org> <5738E5EE.10400@gmail.com> <9dfccdac-2312-3424-c2f6-6f6cdf7214af@dunnington.plus.com> <5738F1AD.40200@gmail.com> <7d67f0e2-f59f-18af-4e0d-38e5c34ca98c@bitsavers.org> <57391717.5020905@gmail.com> <57393C1C.7040307@gmail.com> <57397E7E.6000604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/16/16 1:02 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I disassembled the RC2030 to get at the motherboard and spent some time probing. If you get a chance, an couple of MB pictures would be nice. I just to pics and dumped the proms from my RC3230. uploaded to pdf/mips/M20 What pins does the AT keyboard use on your DIN-8? From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 16 14:07:19 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:07:19 -0700 Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <573A1A67.5000905@sydex.com> On 05/16/2016 11:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have been keeping my eye out for older panels. I have some 12" > 4:3 and a few 17" 4:3 and I think one 19" 4:3. Never run across > anything larger. I don't think there were too many 4:3 LCD > televisions sold larger than 19"... some, perhaps, but not many. The > world switched to 16:9 about the time prices started falling on > 19" > panels. > > I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No > luck yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but > give me a black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. I use a NEC 21.3" 4:3 monitor--they can be had for cheap. NEC sells a few refurb very inexpensive 4:3 19" monitors that accept SOG: http://www.necdisplay.com/category/desktop-monitors?Refurbished=1 --Chuck From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon May 16 14:13:51 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:13:51 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 Message-ID: I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the Dell 2007FP- There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar scalers. They sync to SoG, and have no trouble with oddball resolutions like 1152x8-whatever. My SGI stuff can drive it at native resolution. As an added bonus, you can disable scaling if you want black bars and native resolution. These are readily available for ~$35, and I have at least 6. - Ian On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/16/2016 11:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I have been keeping my eye out for older panels. I have some 12" > > 4:3 and a few 17" 4:3 and I think one 19" 4:3. Never run across > > anything larger. I don't think there were too many 4:3 LCD > > televisions sold larger than 19"... some, perhaps, but not many. The > > world switched to 16:9 about the time prices started falling on > 19" > > panels. > > > > I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No > > luck yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but > > give me a black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. > > > I use a NEC 21.3" 4:3 monitor--they can be had for cheap. > > NEC sells a few refurb very inexpensive 4:3 19" monitors that accept SOG: > > http://www.necdisplay.com/category/desktop-monitors?Refurbished=1 > > --Chuck > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 16 14:28:10 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 15:28:10 -0400 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > Dell 2007FP- > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. Excellent recommendation. I'll be keeping a lookout for them. Thanks! -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 16 14:54:30 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 12:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No luck > yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but give me a > black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. > Would rotating the panel to a portrait orientation help? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 16 15:03:14 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 16:03:14 -0400 Subject: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 3:54 PM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I have a couple of arcade cabinets I'd love to switch to LCD. No luck >> yet except with a 16:9 that would fill the cabinet space but give me a >> black bars and a smaller playfield size than the CRT. >> > Would rotating the panel to a portrait orientation help? Not for Xenophobe. It has a 4:3 CRT that mostly fills the upper cavity. A portrait-mode LCD would be far worse than a landscape-mode LCD. -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon May 16 15:20:44 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 13:20:44 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 16, 2016 12:13 PM, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > Dell 2007FP- > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > Will those sync with an Agilent 16700 at 1600x1200 at 75Hz? I've only found one LCD display so far that will. From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon May 16 16:10:45 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 14:10:45 -0700 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glen asks: >> Will those sync with an Agilent 16700 at 1600x1200 at 75Hz? >> I've only found one LCD display so far that will. I don't think I have the extended VRAM option in my Agilent to verify this, but I'll double check. I would assume they will take it, they're extremely well behaved and I think I have gotten it to do 1600x1200x75 via an Indigo2(?). Great quality analog handling on the VGA input. The only thing I suspect that they don't like (but have not tried) is 15khz via the VGA input- easily fixed by using a scandoubler (or composite / S-video). I've encountered nothing that hasn't worked on the 2007FP, but *has* worked on another model LCD. Glen: You are welcome to borrow one and give it a go whenever we hack on the CDU PALs. .... I'll also note another much sillier reason I like the 2007FP beyond superb scaling quality, sync flexibility and overall image / panel quality: The industrial design is minimal, angular, VESA-mountable, and inoffensive. It fits well with decidedly retro surroundings- no giant bezel, loud curves, or weird chassis colors to distract the eye; it fades into the background nicely, which helps the experience and suspension of reality, if that's something you're into. (Late night retro-sessions FTW) They seem to be quite common right now as they're of the magic age where offices have started to upgrade them to bigger, wider LCDs. I'm sure that won't last so I'm hoarding them when they pop up at the ecycle, etc. - Ian Appendix: a non-inclusive list of shit I've tested- RGB / VGA in: > Amiga 3000 w/internal scandoubler > Apple Quadra 700-950, IIci, IIsi internal video > Indigo2 at 1600x1200 native (gorgeous) > Radius ThunderGX 1600 NuBus graphics at native (also awesome) > Amiga PicassoII, GVP Spectrum, and Macro Retina Z3 24bit RTGs - 800x600 looks superb > Radius 24XK NuBus graphics > SGI Onyx @ native (should be disqualified because it'll sync to a piece of toast with the right format) > Indigo ELAN > Misc. color sun stuff (3/80, sparc) > Apollo DN3000 color > HP / Apollo 425 color > SGI O2 > SGI Octane V6 with custom VFO @ native > SGI Personal IRIS > etc... Have also used the composite input with: > Sperctrum QL > C64 > Video toaster > Nintendo 64 On Monday, May 16, 2016, Glen Slick wrote: > On May 16, 2016 12:13 PM, "Ian Finder" > wrote: > > > > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > > Dell 2007FP- > > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > > > Will those sync with an Agilent 16700 at 1600x1200 at 75Hz? I've only found > one LCD display so far that will. > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 16 16:34:44 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 22:34:44 +0100 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > Dell 2007FP- > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar scalers. > > They sync to SoG, and have no trouble with oddball resolutions like > 1152x8-whatever. *makes notes* Thanks for that, I'll keep an eye out for one! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 16 16:51:25 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 21:51:25 +0000 Subject: DEC L2001 processor needed for stupid endeavor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 16, 2016, at 3:49 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I'm still looking for > something "useful" to do with 10 processors on VMS; it's a shame there was > never a distributed.net client for VAX VMS :). http://stats.distributed.net/misc/platformlist.php?project_id=205&view=tco There was, albeit on an older project. And there is an Alpha/VMS client even now, as well as VAX/NetBSD, for one of the current (RC5-72) projects. How hard could it be to port? :-) I pledge to get my VAX (VLC) running VMS and contributing if a client appears. - Mark From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 16 16:52:48 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 22:52:48 +0100 Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > Dell 2007FP- > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar scalers. In fact there was one available for ukp35 so it's now mine. I remember these monitors from a few years ago at a customer that specialised in video for aeroplanes, I used one not quite daily but remember being irked at the time that it was several button presses needed to get from VGA to DVI input, hahaha. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 16 17:25:28 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 23:25:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1238411477.1243539.1463437528128.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe18.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 16 May 2016 at 22:52 Adrian Graham > wrote: > > > On 16/05/2016 20:13, "Ian Finder" wrote: > > > I dunno if it's relevant or not, but my go-to LCD for retro stuff is the > > Dell 2007FP- > > There was a panel lottery, some are TN, some IPS. Both are solid. > > > > They are 4:3, 1600x1200 native. > > > > They have DVI, VGA, Composite and S-Video inputs, and very stellar > > scalers. > > In fact there was one available for ukp35 so it's now mine. I remember > these > monitors from a few years ago at a customer that specialised in video for > aeroplanes, I used one not quite daily but remember being irked at the > time > that it was several button presses needed to get from VGA to DVI input, > hahaha. > He had another one at that price (the last one apparently), so I have bagged that one. I tried my Viewsonic, which do