From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Dec 1 00:01:01 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 22:01:01 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE460F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE460F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <029b01d24b98$4c304630$e490d290$@bettercomputing.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 12:16 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff From: Brad H Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:16 AM > That was kind of why I thought buying a PDP in pieces over time might > be my way to go, even if it took eons to get everything I needed to rebuild one. > It'd be fun to try and piece one back together. But yeah, I'm trying > to think of what I would do with it afterwards. :) So what kind of system are you interested in? There is no such thing as a generic "PDP". Before giving up the naming convention, DEC produced 7 different architectures all named "PDP-n" for small integers n (and designed 2 that were never built by DEC): PDP-1: 18 bits, 6 instruction + 12 address (System Modules) PDP-2: 24 bits (design only) (System Modules) PDP-3: 36 bits (design only) (System Modules) PDP-4: 18 bits, 5 instruction + 13 address (System Modules) PDP-5: 12 bits (System Modules) PDP-6: 36 bits, 9 instruction, 9 AC+index+indirect, 18 address (mainframe) PDP-7: 18 bits (PDP-4 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) PDP-8: 12 bits (PDP-5 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) PDP-9: 18 bits (PDP-7 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) PDP-10: 36 bits (PDP-6 upwards compatible) (mainframe) PDP-11: 16 bits (FlipChips) PDP-12: 12 bits (PDP-8 + LINC compatible) (FlipChips) PDP-14: 12 bits (NOT compatible with the PDP-8 family) (FlipChips) PDP-15: 18 bits (PDP-9 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) PDP-16: register-transfer module machine, with 8-, 12- or 16-bit memory as needed for particular application design. Later members of each family were designated by suffixes (e.g. 8/i, 8/e, 8/A and 11/40, 11/70, etc.) or newer names (DECsystem-10, DECSYSTEM-20). The VAX was the first new architecture from DEC not to have a PDP-n designation at all. Rich P. S. For most of us, I think, "DG" = Data General, not Digital Group. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 >mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org >http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ Can I use 'dg'? :) I think Digital Group preferred to be uncapitalized if I remember correctly. Regarding PDP -- I'm just sort of dipping my toes in here. I'd like something that looks similar to an 8/E -- front panel toggle switches, preferably from before 1975. But it's all a function of price.. if I can find a later 11 that isn't $600+, that might be a place to start. I'm open to suggestions. I've always been curious about DEC -- the computer shop we once frequented in Vancouver always had stacks of DEC stuff among its used computer inventory. VAX stations mostly. But I never got around to buying anything. Was too busy collecting classic Macs. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 00:13:39 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 23:13:39 -0700 Subject: manual for Microtec META29M meta-assembler Message-ID: Does anyone have a manual for the Microtec META29M meta-assembler? This was generally used to assemble microcode for microprogrammed systems, including bit-slice systems. It was apparently compatible with AMD's AMDASM, but added additional features. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Dec 1 01:22:46 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 23:22:46 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <65040a2c-95ba-6558-1b99-288500c986be@verizon.net> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7e7a4bff-3573-b42c-7bae-37e8eaa814aa@jwsss.com> <65040a2c-95ba-6558-1b99-288500c986be@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8481d9ec-1347-ce33-e2e3-a9e639a44af9@jwsss.com> On 11/30/2016 11:36 AM, allison wrote: > On 11/30/16 2:32 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> >> >> On 11/30/2016 9:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> >>> On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote: >>>> >>>> When I got >>>> a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it >>>> operating was >>>> like going on an exploration of ancient ruins. >>> Were you born in the 20th century? >>> >>> Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern. >>> >> I was ecstatic to get a Nova 3, but it was released when I thought >> the Nova 800's I used were actually getting to be old technology. >> Still very glad to finally have a full Data General system. Since it >> replaced a PDP 11/34 on deck, I'm glad to have a system that doesn't >> make me wonder if I'll be disabled everytime i move or lift it as well. >> >> thanks >> Jim >> > There is DG aka Data General and then there is Digital Group Inc. They > are very different! > Very true, but didn't honestly think of that in context of the thread, nor have I ever had any Digital Group stuff. And does any Digital Group cause any injuries requiring orthopedic medical attention when you are lifting it? thanks jim > > Allison > > > From michael.newton at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 01:45:09 2016 From: michael.newton at gmail.com (Michael Newton) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 23:45:09 -0800 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love In-Reply-To: References: <725C5936-15AB-4877-B833-0145B063E6EA@cs.ubc.ca> <27984E55-CA7D-4968-9CF3-7084217A6512@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: If I power it up with the cover off, i can hear that several of the motors are making unhealthy noises and not moving (although the pen carousel moves very slightly before giving up and just howling). The paper drive motor and also the little motor for the paper feed/takeup spindle are making the weird noise and not turning. Seems like the motors are being commanded to do the startup routine but are acting weird. From what I remember of the brief period when this device worked, when it's first powered up, it spins the pen carousel and checks for pens, and also rapidly rolls the paper in and out a bit. M. On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 5:48 PM, Michael Newton wrote: > You were correct, I was looking for the -12v in the wrong place. I did > find -12v on the anode of CR2. So all voltages are correct at the test > points. > > So the LCD shows nothing and the device does not seem to respond to keypad > presses. > > The other symptom is that I can hear some feeble and irregular clicky > noises from the paper drive motor. So it isn't purely just that the display > failed. > > thanks > M. > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> (Getting back to this after a couple days..) >> >> The board photos help although not detailed enough for certainty in >> tracing. >> I see the power supply test points on the photos and on the diagram 12-14 >> (page 12-28) of the manual. >> >> Something to confirm: the -12V label is ambiguous in it's position on the >> board, do you know for sure you measured the right spot for -12V? >> It looks like it would be the nice solder button to the left of the minus >> sign but from what I can discern it seems more likely to be the anode lead >> of the diode (CR2), right above the "2" in the "-12V" label. >> The diagram 12-14 indicates the test point as the cathode (banded lead) >> of CR2, this is likely incorrect, if CR2 is the -12V rectifier the DC >> output would be the anode end. It looks likes the draftsman just copied the >> pattern for the +15V diode. >> >> As you suggest, detailed assistance from a distance may be difficult, but >> you might check the above and see where things stand. >> I'm not all that far away (Victoria area) but far enough to nonetheless >> be awkward for transport or trip. >> >> >> On 2016-Nov-22, at 1:16 PM, Michael Newton wrote: >> > I appreciate the guidance so far, thanks very much. >> > >> > I found another power supply/motor driver board ("analog board") of the >> same part number, hooked it up to the plotter and tested it. The -12v test >> point on the new board read zero, and the other voltages were present just >> like the original board. >> > >> > I don't suppose that proves anything, but at least now I have 2 power >> supplies. >> > >> > I don't have an electronics background other than hobby-level >> tinkering. I don't know how likely it is I'll be able to diagnose and fix >> this solely on remote guidance, and in any case that seems like too much >> for me to ask. >> > >> > If there is someone within driving distance of Seattle who could get >> this thing working I will pay them what their time and effort is worth (I'm >> trying to avoid shipping this monster or buying anyone plane tickets). >> > >> > thanks >> > M. >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Michael Newton < >> michael.newton at gmail.com> wrote: >> > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Brent Hilpert >> wrote: >> > On 2016-Nov-16, at 11:34 PM, Michael Newton wrote: >> > >> > > That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero. >> > >> > From the previous discussion, presumably you mean -12V. >> > >> > Yes -12v, sorry >> > >> > > Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which >> ones >> > > might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics. >> > >> > Looking at: >> > 7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf >> > from hpmuseum.net via the link you supplied, the document seems to be >> truncated. >> > The document simply ends part way through the schematics pages, and of >> course the power supply schematic is missing. >> > (Aside, where did you find that document link? I didn't find it ref'd >> on the hpmuseum pages.) >> > >> > It's linked from http://www.hpmuseum.net/collection_document.php - >> search the page for "DraftMaster" >> > >> > The document does appear to be missing the full schematic of the analog >> board. I haven't been able to find them anywhere. >> > >> > There is a minimal diagram for the power supply on page 5-4 (pdf.30), >> which shows the -12V supply as an independent (not part of the control >> loop) secondary out of the switching supply. That's good as it limits the >> likely problem region. There will be more components involved than shown >> there, but the diode seen there on the -12V supply will lead to a filter >> cap and possibly a 3-terminal linear regulator such as a 7912 or LM320-12, >> or even a zener >> > regulator. There may be current limiting or overvoltage circuitry >> between there and the actual -12 output of the supply. >> > >> > - identify the -12V componentry in the power supply. >> > - if there is a 3-terminal -12V regulator check for input to >> the reg vs output. >> > - confirm that it's not the load side of the -12 causing the >> problem. >> > - pic(s) of the power supply board might help us identify the >> area or get a better idea of what we're dealing with. >> > >> > >> > I took photos: https://goo.gl/photos/tRWV3ATTqx2R3eDz6 >> >> > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 1 06:47:11 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 13:47:11 +0100 Subject: Looking for Philips P2000C P-Systems discs In-Reply-To: References: <00c501d24b53$a2a189b0$e7e49d10$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <004e01d24bd1$09bc9e50$1d35daf0$@xs4all.nl> > pic? > Like this ? http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/14769/Philips-P2000C-P2012/ -Rik From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Thu Dec 1 07:18:25 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 08:18:25 -0500 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <8481d9ec-1347-ce33-e2e3-a9e639a44af9@jwsss.com> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7e7a4bff-3573-b42c-7bae-37e8eaa814aa@jwsss.com> <65040a2c-95ba-6558-1b99-288500c986be@verizon.net> <8481d9ec-1347-ce33-e2e3-a9e639a44af9@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 12/1/2016 2:22 AM, jim stephens wrote: > Very true, but didn't honestly think of that in context of the > thread, nor have I ever had any Digital Group stuff. And does any > Digital Group cause any injuries requiring orthopedic medical > attention when you are lifting it? > > thanks jim Only borderline, I think the total weight of the system box was around 40lbs. The standard box was a little bigger than the Altair 8800, I think. Wider by about 10" or so. I built a bunch of their kits when I was 17/18 before I went to college. Tried to make my own chassis and P/S but finally had to give in and buy the dg one. I had a 2.5Mhz Z80a, 26kB ( 3x8k +2k on CPU board) memory, an audio cassette tape storage interface and a Panasonic 12 (13"?) B/W TV cobbled into a surplus DEC VT52 style case that I bought from that famous (in the 70's) surplus place in Massachusetts. Poly Paks*? I can't remember the name. I kind of wish I still had that system. But after college, I never was back near home and eventually my parents asked if it was okay to sell it and I gave them permission. someone packed it up and hauled it off. I hope it's still out there somewhere. John H. Reinhardt *Yes, Poly Paks. Found a discussion I also bought an old vector display unit from then, there as an article in Byte about turning one into a display and playing Space War on it. Never got it to work though. Parents sold it off either when I was away in college or after I graduated and wasn't at home. From w2hx at w2hx.com Thu Dec 1 07:19:14 2016 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 05:19:14 -0800 Subject: PDP-8e power switch key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey all, Thanks to everyone for the response on keys. I am sorry I don?t know how I missed all the collected information here on this subject. My apologies. I now have all the information I need on this subject! Thanks everyone. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 12:07 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-8e power switch key? On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:35 PM, W2HX wrote: > Hi folks, > > What are people doing for keys for the 8e? I've been carrying a standard DEC key on my keyring since 1982... > Is there a standard key used for all of them? Nearly all (a custom key was an option - I have only ever seen *1* DEC machine that does not use either an ACE XX2247 or a pinless key, out of many dozens). > Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial number of my key lock? I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able to get info. There should be _lots_ of info on DEC ACE XX2247 keys including pin depths and even 3D models. -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Dec 1 06:28:37 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 07:28:37 -0500 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE460F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE460F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <7fafa14a-8cc3-1a75-ce95-c8a8c5545456@verizon.net> On 11/30/16 3:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Brad H > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:16 AM > >> That was kind of why I thought buying a PDP in pieces over time might be my >> way to go, even if it took eons to get everything I needed to rebuild one. >> It'd be fun to try and piece one back together. But yeah, I'm trying to >> think of what I would do with it afterwards. :) > So what kind of system are you interested in? There is no such thing as a > generic "PDP". Before giving up the naming convention, DEC produced 7 > different architectures all named "PDP-n" for small integers n (and designed 2 > that were never built by DEC): > > PDP-1: 18 bits, 6 instruction + 12 address (System Modules) > PDP-2: 24 bits (design only) (System Modules) > PDP-3: 36 bits (design only) (System Modules) > PDP-4: 18 bits, 5 instruction + 13 address (System Modules) > PDP-5: 12 bits (System Modules) > PDP-6: 36 bits, 9 instruction, 9 AC+index+indirect, 18 address (mainframe) > PDP-7: 18 bits (PDP-4 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) > PDP-8: 12 bits (PDP-5 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) > PDP-9: 18 bits (PDP-7 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) > PDP-10: 36 bits (PDP-6 upwards compatible) (mainframe) > PDP-11: 16 bits (FlipChips) > PDP-12: 12 bits (PDP-8 + LINC compatible) (FlipChips) > PDP-14: 12 bits (NOT compatible with the PDP-8 family) (FlipChips) > PDP-15: 18 bits (PDP-9 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) > PDP-16: register-transfer module machine, with 8-, 12- or 16-bit memory as > needed for particular application design. > > Later members of each family were designated by suffixes (e.g. 8/i, 8/e, 8/A > and 11/40, 11/70, etc.) or newer names (DECsystem-10, DECSYSTEM-20). The VAX > was the first new architecture from DEC not to have a PDP-n designation at all. > > Rich > > P. S. For most of us, I think, "DG" = Data General, not Digital Group. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > Rich, You missed posting approximate volumes made. Some of those like the PDP1,4, 6 and 12 have very low production volumes. Yes on DG, however there are use that did play with Digital Group. A Digital group system fully bown out is likely about 60 pounds or so. They were on a par with other S100 8080 systems for size and weight. Allison From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Dec 1 10:18:29 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 08:18:29 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7e7a4bff-3573-b42c-7bae-37e8eaa814aa@jwsss.com> <65040a2c-95ba-6558-1b99-288500c986be@verizon.net> <8481d9ec-1347-ce33-e2e3-a9e639a44af9@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <02ee01d24bee$8e88b7f0$ab9a27d0$@bettercomputing.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John H. Reinhardt Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:18 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff On 12/1/2016 2:22 AM, jim stephens wrote: > Very true, but didn't honestly think of that in context of the thread, > nor have I ever had any Digital Group stuff. And does any Digital > Group cause any injuries requiring orthopedic medical attention when > you are lifting it? > > thanks jim Only borderline, I think the total weight of the system box was around 40lbs. The standard box was a little bigger than the Altair 8800, I think. Wider by about 10" or so. I built a bunch of their kits when I was 17/18 before I went to college. Tried to make my own chassis and P/S but finally had to give in and buy the dg one. I had a 2.5Mhz Z80a, 26kB ( 3x8k +2k on CPU board) memory, an audio cassette tape storage interface and a Panasonic 12 (13"?) B/W TV cobbled into a surplus DEC VT52 style case that I bought from that famous (in the 70's) surplus place in Massachusetts. Poly Paks*? I can't remember the name. I kind of wish I still had that system. But after college, I never was back near home and eventually my parents asked if it was okay to sell it and I gave them permission. someone packed it up and hauled it off. I hope it's still out there somewhere. John H. Reinhardt >*Yes, Poly Paks. Found a discussion >I also bought an old vector display unit from then, there as an article in Byte about turning one into a display and playing Space War on it. Never got it to >work though. Parents sold it off either when I was away in college or after I graduated and wasn't at home. I have the Basic Box and it's not very heavy at all relatively speaking. I imagine the Bytemaster, with the built in monitor probably weighs a fair bit. My Intellec 230 though might give a PDP a run for its money. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 1 10:57:28 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 08:57:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8e power switch key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Dec 2016, W2HX wrote: > Thanks to everyone for the response on keys. I am sorry I don?t know > how I missed all the collected information here on this subject. My > apologies. I now have all the information I need on this subject! Thanks > everyone. If you can, you should remove the lock and take it with you to the locksmith when you go to get your xx2247 key made. 1) It makes it convenient to test the newly-cut key, and/or resolve any uncertainties about it. 2) In SOME jusrisdictions, there are local regulations forbidding code-cutting of keys, without varying levels of PROOF that you own/have said lock. That is nominally so that, since many locks have their code-name displayed, that somebody doesn't walk into a locksmith and get keys cut for other people's locks. 5 years ago, in the previous discussion of the XX2247, a couple of people measured their keys. If you don't have a code-cutting locksmith handy, those discussions were just about all you would need to machine your own blank and cut it yourself. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 10:58:58 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 11:58:58 -0500 Subject: PDP-8e power switch key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 1 Dec 2016, W2HX wrote: > >> Thanks to everyone for the response on keys. I am sorry I don?t know how >> I missed all the collected information here on this subject. My apologies. >> I now have all the information I need on this subject! Thanks everyone. >> > > If you can, you should remove the lock and take it with you to the > locksmith when you go to get your xx2247 key made. > > 1) It makes it convenient to test the newly-cut key, and/or resolve any > uncertainties about it. > > 2) In SOME jusrisdictions, there are local regulations forbidding > code-cutting of keys, without varying levels of PROOF that you own/have > said lock. That is nominally so that, since many locks have their > code-name displayed, that somebody doesn't walk into a locksmith and get > keys cut for other people's locks. > > > 5 years ago, in the previous discussion of the XX2247, a couple of people > measured their keys. If you don't have a code-cutting locksmith handy, > those discussions were just about all you would need to machine your own > blank and cut it yourself. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com There is a key depository that I believe you can locate within the DEC section of the vcfed.org/forum/ user group.. b From Mark at Misty.com Thu Dec 1 11:13:03 2016 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 12:13:03 -0500 Subject: PDP-8e power switch key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161201171303.GA1358@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 08:35:31PM -0800, W2HX wrote: > Hi folks, > > What are people doing for keys for the 8e? Is there a standard key used for all of them? Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial number of my key lock? I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able to get info. > > Thanks > Eugene W2HX I bought one of these for $18.47 for my 8/e, and it works fine. http://www.ebay.com/itm/142118132040 Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From cramcram at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 12:10:48 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 10:10:48 -0800 Subject: PDP-8e power switch key? In-Reply-To: <20161201171303.GA1358@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20161201171303.GA1358@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: A long, long time ago (1978, 79?) when I had a straight 8 and our group had a new VAX 11/780 I verified that the same key works on both machines. On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 08:35:31PM -0800, W2HX wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > What are people doing for keys for the 8e? Is there a standard key used > for all of them? Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial > number of my key lock? I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able > to get info. > > > > Thanks > > Eugene W2HX > > I bought one of these for $18.47 for my 8/e, and it works fine. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/142118132040 > > Mark > > -- > Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE > From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 13:27:24 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 11:27:24 -0800 Subject: Winchester-style coax connectors? Message-ID: Hey all -- Due to a small miracle I now have 8KW of perfectly functioning core in my long-ill Imlac PDS-1D. The last hurdle is devising a replacement for the missing display (an X/Y vector display). For the time being I'm going to attempt to use an oscilloscope, but first I need to build a cable. The Imlac uses a Winchester connector (14 position) for the display and while they're not as common these days the parts can still be found so I thought I was in the clear, but what I failed to notice is that three of the "pins" (for the X, Y and Blank signals) are actually tiny coaxial connectors that fit within the Winchester housing (i.e. they're the same diameter as a Winchester pin). I haven't been able to track these connectors down anywhere. Anyone have any ideas? Failing that, I can always just tap into the backplane to pick up these signals and ignore the connector on the bulkhead, but it would be nice to be able to use the original connector... - Josh From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Dec 1 13:47:50 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 14:47:50 -0500 Subject: Winchester-style coax connectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FCFAEFE-9BD6-46A4-93C0-E7F02AA2571A@comcast.net> > On Dec 1, 2016, at 2:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > ... > The Imlac uses a Winchester connector (14 position) for the display and > while they're not as common these days the parts can still be found so I > thought I was in the clear, but what I failed to notice is that three of > the "pins" (for the X, Y and Blank signals) are actually tiny coaxial > connectors that fit within the Winchester housing (i.e. they're the same > diameter as a Winchester pin). What is a "Winchester connector"? Do you mean a D-sub connector, i.e., with a trapezoidal shell such as you find on terminal or VGA connectors? Those come in a number of widths, with names like DE (for the VGA size), or DB (the 25 pin classic RS-232), and so forth. Often, incorrectly, all are called DB. Those shells have a variety of choices for pins. They may be two rows of pins (e.g., DB-25), or 3 rows (e.g., DE-15). You may also find ones that have just miniature coax inserts, or a mix of coax and plain pins. The coax inserts are generally larger, such that it takes up much of the height of the connector. I haven't seen coax pins that are the same diameter as plain signal pins, that's rather hard to imagine especially for something as old as an Imlac. Examples of mixed pin D-sub connectors are the Sun video monitor connectors, with RGB on coax. paul From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 13:51:37 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 11:51:37 -0800 Subject: Winchester-style coax connectors? In-Reply-To: <1FCFAEFE-9BD6-46A4-93C0-E7F02AA2571A@comcast.net> References: <1FCFAEFE-9BD6-46A4-93C0-E7F02AA2571A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Dec 1, 2016, at 2:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > ... > > The Imlac uses a Winchester connector (14 position) for the display and > > while they're not as common these days the parts can still be found so I > > thought I was in the clear, but what I failed to notice is that three of > > the "pins" (for the X, Y and Blank signals) are actually tiny coaxial > > connectors that fit within the Winchester housing (i.e. they're the same > > diameter as a Winchester pin). > > What is a "Winchester connector"? Do you mean a D-sub connector, i.e., > with a trapezoidal shell such as you find on terminal or VGA connectors? > Those come in a number of widths, with names like DE (for the VGA size), or > DB (the 25 pin classic RS-232), and so forth. Often, incorrectly, all are > called DB. > > Those shells have a variety of choices for pins. They may be two rows of > pins (e.g., DB-25), or 3 rows (e.g., DE-15). You may also find ones that > have just miniature coax inserts, or a mix of coax and plain pins. The > coax inserts are generally larger, such that it takes up much of the height > of the connector. I haven't seen coax pins that are the same diameter as > plain signal pins, that's rather hard to imagine especially for something > as old as an Imlac. Examples of mixed pin D-sub connectors are the Sun > video monitor connectors, with RGB on coax. > > paul > > > Like one of these bad-boys, only with 14 connectors rather than 34: http://cables24.com/en/others/cable-v-35/1470-V-35-m34-Winchester-34pin-male-connector Sorry for not being more specific. The coax connectors in a 13W3 connector (for example) are much larger than what I need. - Josh From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Dec 1 16:31:40 2016 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 16:31:40 -0600 Subject: Winchester-style coax connectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5840A4CC.7090500@ubanproductions.com> Have you considered using a vector arcade game monitor? On 12/1/16 1:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > Due to a small miracle I now have 8KW of perfectly functioning core in my > long-ill Imlac PDS-1D. The last hurdle is devising a replacement for the > missing display (an X/Y vector display). For the time being I'm going to > attempt to use an oscilloscope, but first I need to build a cable. > > The Imlac uses a Winchester connector (14 position) for the display and > while they're not as common these days the parts can still be found so I > thought I was in the clear, but what I failed to notice is that three of > the "pins" (for the X, Y and Blank signals) are actually tiny coaxial > connectors that fit within the Winchester housing (i.e. they're the same > diameter as a Winchester pin). > > I haven't been able to track these connectors down anywhere. Anyone have > any ideas? > > Failing that, I can always just tap into the backplane to pick up these > signals and ignore the connector on the bulkhead, but it would be nice to > be able to use the original connector... > > - Josh > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Dec 1 16:36:14 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 14:36:14 -0800 Subject: Winchester-style coax connectors? In-Reply-To: References: <1FCFAEFE-9BD6-46A4-93C0-E7F02AA2571A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <11eda58e-b001-2dd2-788c-c39199111a8c@jwsss.com> On 12/1/2016 11:51 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 2:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> The Imlac uses a Winchester connector (14 position) for the display and >>> while they're not as common these days the parts can still be found so I >>> thought I was in the clear, but what I failed to notice is that three of >>> the "pins" (for the X, Y and Blank signals) are actually tiny coaxial >>> connectors that fit within the Winchester housing (i.e. they're the same >>> diameter as a Winchester pin). >> What is a "Winchester connector"? Do you mean a D-sub connector, i.e., >> with a trapezoidal shell such as you find on terminal or VGA connectors? >> Those come in a number of widths, with names like DE (for the VGA size), or >> DB (the 25 pin classic RS-232), and so forth. Often, incorrectly, all are >> called DB. >> >> Those shells have a variety of choices for pins. They may be two rows of >> pins (e.g., DB-25), or 3 rows (e.g., DE-15). You may also find ones that >> have just miniature coax inserts, or a mix of coax and plain pins. The >> coax inserts are generally larger, such that it takes up much of the height >> of the connector. I haven't seen coax pins that are the same diameter as >> plain signal pins, that's rather hard to imagine especially for something >> as old as an Imlac. Examples of mixed pin D-sub connectors are the Sun >> video monitor connectors, with RGB on coax. >> >> paul >> >> >> > Like one of these bad-boys, only with 14 connectors rather than 34: > > http://cables24.com/en/others/cable-v-35/1470-V-35-m34-Winchester-34pin-male-connector > > Sorry for not being more specific. The coax connectors in a 13W3 connector > (for example) are much larger than what I need. > > - Josh Try Electro Mavin. He's been buying and squirreling away connectors for 40 or 50 years. I don't know any other vendor with as much stock as he has. You may need to bull your way thru to him or his daughter or other person in the know for connectors, but he is your best shot. http://www.mavin.com/ I've seen him pay serious money for connectors at various swap meets around LA and in other transactions where connectors were up for grabs. thanks jim From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 1 20:31:20 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 21:31:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices Message-ID: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I have this memory of a set of law promulgated by an engineer at DEC, one of which was something to the effect that 'all digital circuits are made out of analog devices'. However, my memory doesn't recall where I saw this, and my Google-fu is not strong enough to turn it up. Can anyone help? Noel From w2hx at w2hx.com Thu Dec 1 20:34:38 2016 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 18:34:38 -0800 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Not only are they made of analog devices, but at the speeds things have been running at for the last 20 (maybe 30) years, they often behave like analog devices. Things like transmission line theory, crosstalk, oscillation, etc are all important design considerations. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 9:31 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices So I have this memory of a set of law promulgated by an engineer at DEC, one of which was something to the effect that 'all digital circuits are made out of analog devices'. However, my memory doesn't recall where I saw this, and my Google-fu is not strong enough to turn it up. Can anyone help? Noel From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 22:17:15 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 22:17:15 -0600 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: References: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: You don't really find many examples of discrete states, anywhere in the natural world. Just not a whole lot of quantization out there, unless you reduce to the subatomic level - and while you'll find discrete states (quanta) there, they are by nature indeterminate. Have to admit, we did get an interesting universe. On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 8:34 PM, W2HX wrote: > Not only are they made of analog devices, but at the speeds things have > been running at for the last 20 (maybe 30) years, they often behave like > analog devices. Things like transmission line theory, crosstalk, > oscillation, etc are all important design considerations. > Eugene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 9:31 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices > > So I have this memory of a set of law promulgated by an engineer at DEC, > one of which was something to the effect that 'all digital circuits are > made out of analog devices'. However, my memory doesn't recall where I saw > this, and my Google-fu is not strong enough to turn it up. Can anyone help? > > Noel > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 22:46:35 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 20:46:35 -0800 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 12/01/2016 06:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I have this memory of a set of law promulgated by an engineer at > DEC, one of which was something to the effect that 'all digital > circuits are made out of analog devices'. However, my memory doesn't > recall where I saw this, and my Google-fu is not strong enough to > turn it up. Can anyone help? I don't know if he was the first--probably not--but the late Bob Pease often echoed the sentiment. Of course, his specialty was analog design... --Chuck From RichA at livingcomputers.org Thu Dec 1 15:34:01 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 21:34:01 +0000 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <02ee01d24bee$8e88b7f0$ab9a27d0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7e7a4bff-3573-b42c-7bae-37e8eaa814aa@jwsss.com> <65040a2c-95ba-6558-1b99-288500c986be@verizon.net> <8481d9ec-1347-ce33-e2e3-a9e639a44af9@jwsss.com> <02ee01d24bee$8e88b7f0$ab9a27d0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE4A14@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Brad H Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:18 AM > My Intellec 230 though might give a PDP a run for its money. See, I'm trying to get you to stop saying "a PDP". There's no such thing. There are families of PDP-n things, but there are wide differences in size, weight, and capabilities. Your Intellec 230 would fit inside one memory cabinet of a PDP-10 with room to spare. The entire PDP-10 system weighs tons. Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From trs80 at marmotking.com Thu Dec 1 15:44:58 2016 From: trs80 at marmotking.com (David Cooper) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 13:44:58 -0800 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86DCBD39834B4D84892DC4A6E530E311@marmotking> I have imaged a couple of ROMS from Xebec Controllers: ASSY 104527 REV E06, SN 132-2860\xebec_104521h_adb5_TMS2732AJL-45.bin 104686, ROM 104700A (mfm-scsi bridge)\104700a_xebec_assy104686.bin Do either of these look like something you would like? -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 5:57 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 I just started cataloging and dumping firmware my SASI/SCSI disk and tape boards starting with Xebec. It would be nice to find images for the two alternate fw proms for the S1410A, particularly the 8k 104793 version so I can compare it to the one used on the S1420 From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Dec 1 18:58:02 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 16:58:02 -0800 Subject: Winchester-style coax connectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can you take a picture of the side you have ? I have a few On Dec 1, 2016 11:27 AM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: Hey all -- Due to a small miracle I now have 8KW of perfectly functioning core in my long-ill Imlac PDS-1D. The last hurdle is devising a replacement for the missing display (an X/Y vector display). For the time being I'm going to attempt to use an oscilloscope, but first I need to build a cable. The Imlac uses a Winchester connector (14 position) for the display and while they're not as common these days the parts can still be found so I thought I was in the clear, but what I failed to notice is that three of the "pins" (for the X, Y and Blank signals) are actually tiny coaxial connectors that fit within the Winchester housing (i.e. they're the same diameter as a Winchester pin). I haven't been able to track these connectors down anywhere. Anyone have any ideas? Failing that, I can always just tap into the backplane to pick up these signals and ignore the connector on the bulkhead, but it would be nice to be able to use the original connector... - Josh From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 23:59:16 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 05:59:16 +0000 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I have this memory of a set of law promulgated by an engineer at DEC, one > of which was something to the effect that 'all digital circuits are made out > of analog devices'. However, my memory doesn't recall where I saw this, and my > Google-fu is not strong enough to turn it up. Can anyone help? It's one of Don Vonada's laws. I am pretty sure I first read them in 'Computer Engineering', that book produced by DEC. I think the original is 'Digital circuits are made from analog parts' Another of the laws is 'There is no such thing as ground' which (a) means voltmeters have 2 leads, so you can take whatever you want as a reference and (b) all connections have impedance (the inductance is the important bit in general) so even if you have 2 points connected to a wire you call 'ground' they won't necessarily be at the same voltage all the time. A related one, which I don't know if it was ever written down in an official book (he told it to me in person) came from Professor M. V. Wilkes 'A digital circuit is like a tame animal. An analogue circuit is like a wild animal. Every so often the tame animal goes back to the wild' -tony -tony > > Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 00:18:38 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 23:18:38 -0700 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: References: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > It's one of Don Vonada's laws. I am pretty sure I first read them in > 'Computer Engineering', that book produced by DEC. I think the > original is 'Digital circuits are made from analog parts' > > Another of the laws is 'There is no such thing as ground' which > That's where I saw them also. The full set from the book (any typos are mine): Vonada's Engineering Maxims 1. There is no such thing as ground. 2. Digital circuits are made from analog parts. 3. Prototype designs always work. 4. Asserted timing conditions are designed first; unasserted timing conditions are found later. 5. When all but one wire in a group of wires switch, that one will switch also. 6. When all but one gate in a module switches, that one will switch also. 7. Every little pico farad has a nano henry all its own. 8. Capacitors convert voltage glitches to current glitches (conservation of energy). 9. Interconnecting wires are probably transmission lines. 10. Synchronizing circuits may take forever to make a decision. 11. Worse-case tolerances never add -- but when they do, tehy are found in the best customer's machine. 12. Diagnostics are highly efficient in finding solved problems. 13. Processing systems are only partially tested since it is impractical to simulate all possible machine states. 14. Murphy's Laws apply 95 percent of the time. The other 5 percent of the time is a coffee break. From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Dec 2 07:10:48 2016 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 05:10:48 -0800 Subject: PDP-8e power switch key? In-Reply-To: <20161201171303.GA1358@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20161201171303.GA1358@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: Aah. Great, thanks. If I can't get one made locally I will certainly get that one! thank you Eugene -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark G Thomas Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 12:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-8e power switch key? Hi, On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 08:35:31PM -0800, W2HX wrote: > Hi folks, > > What are people doing for keys for the 8e? Is there a standard key used for all of them? Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial number of my key lock? I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able to get info. > > Thanks > Eugene W2HX I bought one of these for $18.47 for my 8/e, and it works fine. http://www.ebay.com/itm/142118132040 Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 2 07:33:23 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 08:33:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices Message-ID: <20161202133323.BA04818C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > It's one of Don Vonada's laws. Ah, thank you, thank you, that's the one I was looking for! I knew _you_'d know it! :-) > A related one ... came from Professor M. V. Wilkes That one I _did_ remember (although I couldn't remember if it was Wilkes or Wheeler - I knew it was one of those Cambridge guys :-), but it's not quite as pithy as the Vonada one. Noel From jonas at otter.se Fri Dec 2 04:45:24 2016 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 11:45:24 +0100 Subject: Base 64 posts to the list Message-ID: Lately, some list posts have begun appearing in Base 64 format. I read the list in daily digest mode, and these posts are not converted to anything sensible, all I get is a long string of hex codes. This is slightly frustrating, since I have to look up the post in the list archive if I want to read it, and then it may turn out to be something that doesn't interest me at the moment. Is there a way of dealing with this, apart from humbly requesting posters to not post in Base 64? Jonas From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Dec 2 07:21:47 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 08:21:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Base 64 posts to the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201612021321.IAA22890@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Lately, some list posts have begun appearing in Base 64 format. I > read the list in daily digest mode, and these posts are not converted > to anything sensible, [...]. > Is there a way of dealing with this, apart from humbly requesting > posters to not post in Base 64? It may not always be the poster's choice. One of the characteristics MIME was designed with was that certain transformations may be made mechanically and are not considered to change the message (in the senses that, for example, it does not need a different Message-Id:, and should be considered the same for deduping purposes). One of these transformations is a re-encoding, such as a change from Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit to Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 (or the other way around, for that matter). I frequently get mail which was, in the words of the the header added to one example, X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG id DAA28998 (Stone being my house network's MTA host.) So it's entirely possible that the sender produced something reasonable, like 8bit or quoted-printable, but some intermediate MTA converted it to base64. The right way of handling this from a MIME perspective would be for the some part of the list software to do such conversions, so that (for example) the messages being packaged into a digest all get converted to 8bit before digest generation runs (and the digest itself may itself get converted, either right after generation or by some intermediate mailhost). But, I suspect that, in this case, the brain cycles to make anything like that happen are close to unavailable. I know _I_ certainly don't want to add to the time-and-energy cost the list is exacting from our honoured listowner. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 2 08:11:43 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:11:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices Message-ID: <20161202141143.C568218C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > The full set from the book (any typos are mine) Since you'd done all the hard work (typing them in), I uploaded them (less typos :-), to: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Vonada's_Engineering_Maxims Interestingly, there's a typo in the originall: "worse-case". :-) Noel From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 09:01:57 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:01:57 +0100 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: <20161202141143.C568218C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161202141143.C568218C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2 December 2016 at 15:11, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Since you'd done all the hard work (typing them in), I uploaded them (less > typos :-), to: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Vonada's_Engineering_Maxims > > Interestingly, there's a typo in the originall: "worse-case". :-) Splendid -- tweeted, with credit! Well, I've buffered the first dozen, anyway... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 2 09:57:50 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 10:57:50 -0500 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: References: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5591AB66-8378-466F-81F9-6085DB3FDD9A@comcast.net> > On Dec 2, 2016, at 12:59 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> So I have this memory of a set of law promulgated by an engineer at DEC, one >> of which was something to the effect that 'all digital circuits are made out >> of analog devices'. However, my memory doesn't recall where I saw this, and my >> Google-fu is not strong enough to turn it up. Can anyone help? > > It's one of Don Vonada's laws. I am pretty sure I first read them in > 'Computer Engineering', that book produced by DEC. I think the > original is 'Digital circuits are made from analog parts' > > Another of the laws is 'There is no such thing as ground' which > > (a) means voltmeters have 2 leads, so you can take whatever > you want as a reference > > and > > (b) all connections have impedance (the inductance is the important > bit in general) so even if you have 2 points connected to a wire you > call 'ground' they won't necessarily be at the same voltage all the time. There are probably lots of people who have spoken or written along these lines. I heard the "everything is analog" from my manager Tony Lauck, the head of the DECnet architecture and A-D group and a polymath (as were a number of others in that group). He specifically emphasized the point in connection with metastability issues. But since the statement is both true and all too often forgotten, I assume it has been said many times before. On the bit about grounds, I still have tucked away somewhere a very funny (but also serious) memory by Bob Steward (lead designer of a number of VAXen) entitled "Do not cut your grounds". He described how a poorly chosen PCB layout turned a ground plane into a slot antenna, among other things. These are the sort of issues that supercomputer designers at CDC or Cray all understood thoroughly -- you can't build machines like that without this knowledge. But a lot of logic designers working at slower speeds weren't taught properly and/or didn't really get it, and they might not get in trouble right away. A somewhat related area is the many different ways in which a number of chip designers messed up the random number generators needed in half duplex Ethernet. I remember Intel as a particular offender, but probably not the only one. AMD got it right in the Lance partly because of a lot of coaching from the DEC Ethernet designers. paul From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Dec 2 09:27:13 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 15:27:13 +0000 (WET) Subject: Base 64 posts to the list In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 02 Dec 2016 11:45:24 +0100" Message-ID: <01Q80ELHNR4Q00159O@beyondthepale.ie> > > Lately, some list posts have begun appearing in Base 64 format. I read > the list in daily digest mode, and these posts are not converted to > anything sensible, all I get is a long string of hex codes. This is > slightly frustrating, since I have to look up the post in the list > archive if I want to read it, and then it may turn out to be something > that doesn't interest me at the moment. Is there a way of dealing with > this, apart from humbly requesting posters to not post in Base 64? > I occasionally get Base 64 format postings from certain Yahoo mailing lists but I cannot recall ever seeing any from cctech/cctalk. I would definately notice because I generally read them using a mail client which knows nothing of Base 64. However, I receive my cctech/cctalk emails individually, not in daily digest mode so maybe that makes a difference. I suppose it is possible that my MTA is silently converting Base 64 messages that it decides don't need Base 64 encoding into plain text. Maybe I should look into that. It is strange that the messages appear properly decoded in the mailing list archive but not in the daily digest. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jonelson126 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 10:29:54 2016 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 10:29:54 -0600 Subject: Winchester-style coax connectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5841A182.7060008@pico-systems.com> On 12/01/2016 01:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > but what I failed to notice is that three of > the "pins" (for the X, Y and Blank signals) are actually tiny coaxial > connectors that fit within the Winchester housing (i.e. they're the same > diameter as a Winchester pin). > > These pins MIGHT be compatible with AMP pins for the "M" series of connectors. If so, I have some of these pins at work that we will likely never use. If you can send a photo of the end you have I can see if it looks like it might work. Jon From jonelson126 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 10:32:55 2016 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 10:32:55 -0600 Subject: Winchester-style coax connectors? In-Reply-To: References: <1FCFAEFE-9BD6-46A4-93C0-E7F02AA2571A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5841A237.2030301@pico-systems.com> On 12/01/2016 01:51 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Like one of these bad-boys, only with 14 connectors rather than 34: > > http://cables24.com/en/others/cable-v-35/1470-V-35-m34-Winchester-34pin-male-connector > > Sorry for not being more specific. The coax connectors in a 13W3 connector > (for example) are much larger than what I need. > > - Josh > Yup, that's an M connector, and industry compatible. In fact, Newark still stocks the standard stuff in AMP (Now Tyco, I guess). I use that 34-pin size to make NIM modules. Newark may also stock the coax pins, but I know they have the single-contact pins. The holes in the housing and the springy fingers are all standardized, so AMP parts will fit Winchester shells, etc. Jon From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Dec 2 11:13:31 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 12:13:31 -0500 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: <5591AB66-8378-466F-81F9-6085DB3FDD9A@comcast.net> References: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5591AB66-8378-466F-81F9-6085DB3FDD9A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <171e01bc-fc71-ac25-80af-1ad7a451ab04@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-12-02 10:57 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > ... > A somewhat related area is the many different ways in which a number of chip designers messed up the random number generators needed in half duplex Ethernet. I remember Intel as a particular offender, but probably not the only one. AMD got it right in the Lance partly because of a lot of coaching from the DEC Ethernet designers. ...That would be a fun paper to read. --Toby > > paul > > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 11:29:07 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 17:29:07 +0000 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: <5591AB66-8378-466F-81F9-6085DB3FDD9A@comcast.net> References: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5591AB66-8378-466F-81F9-6085DB3FDD9A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > On the bit about grounds, I still have tucked away somewhere a very funny (but also serious) memory by Bob Steward (lead designer of a number of VAXen) entitled "Do not cut your grounds". He described how a poorly chosen PCB layout turned a ground plane into a slot antenna, among other things. However there are times when cutting away part of a ground plane can reduce noise in (say) a sensitive amplifier as it can prevent currents from other parts of the circuit going through that part of the ground plane. > > These are the sort of issues that supercomputer designers at CDC or Cray all understood thoroughly -- you can't build machines like that without this knowledge. But a lot of logic designers working at slower speeds weren't taught properly and/or didn't really get it, and they might not get in trouble right away. I do not believe it is possible to be a digital designer without also understanding (and understanding well) RF analogue electronics. There are plenty of people who claim to be able to do that, suffice it to say I've seen some of the messes so created. A lot of the time it's not (just) the clock frequency that matters, but also the rise time of the signals. So a modern fast IC has to be decoupled, ground-planed, etc properly even if you only clock it at 1Hz. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 11:32:03 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 17:32:03 +0000 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: <20161202133323.BA04818C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161202133323.BA04818C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > A related one ... came from Professor M. V. Wilkes > > That one I _did_ remember (although I couldn't remember if it was Wilkes or > Wheeler - I knew it was one of those Cambridge guys :-), but it's not quite > as pithy as the Vonada one. I've not seen that one officially written down anywhere (it's not in any of the books I have by Professor Wilkes). I suspect many recorded versions, especially on this list, originated from me. And Professor Wilkes told it to me one evening many years ago, and I may not remember the exact words. -tomy From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Dec 2 11:33:35 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:33:35 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE4A14@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7e7a4bff-3573-b42c-7bae-37e8eaa814aa@jwsss.com> <65040a2c-95ba-6558-1b99-288500c986be@verizon.net> <8481d9ec-1347-ce33-e2e3-a9e639a44af9@jwsss.com> <02ee01d24bee$8e88b7f0$ab9a27d0$@bettercomputing.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE4A14@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <03b601d24cc2$369dbfc0$a3d93f40$@bettercomputing.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 1:34 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff From: Brad H Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:18 AM > My Intellec 230 though might give a PDP a run for its money. See, I'm trying to get you to stop saying "a PDP". There's no such thing. There are families of PDP-n things, but there are wide differences in size, weight, and capabilities. Your Intellec 230 would fit inside one memory cabinet of a PDP-10 with room to spare. The entire PDP-10 system weighs tons. Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Ave S > Seattle, WA 98134 >http://www.LivingComputers.org/ Sorry.. I was being lazy.. I should have said 'a PDP 8/E'. Obviously there are some pretty large PDP-# systems. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 11:58:11 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:58:11 -0800 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: References: <20161202133323.BA04818C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6d4c962a-87b0-2d5c-d54e-643c7f09d44e@sydex.com> Just about anyone who's ever worked in ECL (non-saturating logic) is aware of this and doesn't need to be reminded by anyone. The same for anyone implementing logic using vacuum tubes. In fact, the other aspect of digital logic is that it's a study of transmission lines--and that's often voiced. Really, any sort of analog-digital divide in thought must surely date from the use of saturating logic in semiconductors. So how far back do the citations go? Are they latecomers to the party? --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Dec 2 13:22:25 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 14:22:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: <5591AB66-8378-466F-81F9-6085DB3FDD9A@comcast.net> References: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5591AB66-8378-466F-81F9-6085DB3FDD9A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201612021922.OAA16741@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I think the original is 'Digital circuits are made from analog >> parts' >> Another of the laws is 'There is no such thing as ground' This reminds me of an incident of my own which is one of my favourite examples of why learning about things at every level possible is useful. I built a PROM reader from discrete logic, to attach to a parallel port. Basically, with 8 output and 3 input pins, you could load an address, then read back the ROM's content for that address, incremement, repeat. But every ROM showed 0xFF as the contents for the last byte, even in cases where I knew better. Well, the ROM socket was in one corner of the board. Some of the inputs were tied to specific logic levels; I tied those to the Vcc or GND pins of the ROM. The only inputs from the rest of the circuit were the address pins of the ROM. And, I tied the ROM's Vcc pin to circuit Vcc. But it turned out I'd neglected to tie the ROM's GND point to circuit ground. As soon as I noticed that it all made sense: as long as at least one address line was low, it powered the ROM through the input clamping diodes and it all worked (apparently one diode drop was not enough to put power outside the effective operating range - it may have been slower than speed spec, but the circuit was not running anywhere close to that). But, as soon as all address lines were high, there was nothing but Vcc coming into that corner of the board, so of course there couldn't be anything but Vcc coming out. Grounding that corner's ground point made it all work. But, if I understood the ROM purely at the logic-gate level, this would have been mysterious and cryptic. If I hadn't known that a low-level output could sink a fair bit of current with little-to-no voltage rise, if I hadn't known input clamping diodes existed, that would have been cryptic, incomprehensible magic. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From guy at cuillin.org.uk Fri Dec 2 16:50:24 2016 From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 22:50:24 +0000 Subject: Digital circuits and analog devices In-Reply-To: <201612021922.OAA16741@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20161202023120.CCBFD18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5591AB66-8378-466F-81F9-6085DB3FDD9A@comcast.net> <201612021922.OAA16741@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: There's a Sophie Wilson talking head exhibit at the Science Museum in London where she says the prototype ARM chip worked well but when they went to measure it power it used they discovered that the power pin was not connected. The ARM CPU was running on current leaking from the chips it was connected to! On 2 December 2016 at 19:22, Mouse wrote: > >> I think the original is 'Digital circuits are made from analog > >> parts' > > >> Another of the laws is 'There is no such thing as ground' > > This reminds me of an incident of my own which is one of my favourite > examples of why learning about things at every level possible is > useful. > > I built a PROM reader from discrete logic, to attach to a parallel > port. Basically, with 8 output and 3 input pins, you could load an > address, then read back the ROM's content for that address, > incremement, repeat. > > But every ROM showed 0xFF as the contents for the last byte, even in > cases where I knew better. > > Well, the ROM socket was in one corner of the board. Some of the > inputs were tied to specific logic levels; I tied those to the Vcc or > GND pins of the ROM. The only inputs from the rest of the circuit were > the address pins of the ROM. > > And, I tied the ROM's Vcc pin to circuit Vcc. But it turned out I'd > neglected to tie the ROM's GND point to circuit ground. As soon as I > noticed that it all made sense: as long as at least one address line > was low, it powered the ROM through the input clamping diodes and it > all worked (apparently one diode drop was not enough to put power > outside the effective operating range - it may have been slower than > speed spec, but the circuit was not running anywhere close to that). > But, as soon as all address lines were high, there was nothing but Vcc > coming into that corner of the board, so of course there couldn't be > anything but Vcc coming out. Grounding that corner's ground point made > it all work. > > But, if I understood the ROM purely at the logic-gate level, this would > have been mysterious and cryptic. If I hadn't known that a low-level > output could sink a fair bit of current with little-to-no voltage rise, > if I hadn't known input clamping diodes existed, that would have been > cryptic, incomprehensible magic. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > -- 4.4 > 5.4 From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 11:29:36 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 11:29:36 -0600 Subject: Base 64 posts to the list Message-ID: I'm not sure if it would make a difference but in your membership options to the list you can choose the format of the messages and how you'd like to receive them. I know my settings are plain text but I haven't played with the others to know if they have an option like that. The only time I've seen base 64 coded stuff are spam pop-ups trying to bypass plaintext filters. Interesting to hear there's some legitimate usage happening. -------- Original message --------From: jonas at otter.se Date: 12/2/16 4:45 AM (GMT-06:00) To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Base 64 posts to the list some list posts have begun appearing in Base 64 format. I read the list in daily digest mode, and these posts are not converted to anything sensible From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 2 16:23:03 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 17:23:03 -0500 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <03b601d24cc2$369dbfc0$a3d93f40$@bettercomputing.net> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7e7a4bff-3573-b42c-7bae-37e8eaa814aa@jwsss.com> <65040a2c-95ba-6558-1b99-288500c986be@verizon.net> <8481d9ec-1347-ce33-e2e3-a9e639a44af9@jwsss.com> <02ee01d24bee$8e88b7f0$ab9a27d0$@bettercomputing.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE4A14@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <03b601d24cc2$369dbfc0$a3d93f40$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <061669f4-3805-7159-afb9-09ef10b7439d@verizon.net> On 12/02/2016 12:33 PM, Brad H wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson > Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 1:34 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff > > From: Brad H > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:18 AM > >> My Intellec 230 though might give a PDP a run for its money. > See, I'm trying to get you to stop saying "a PDP". There's no such thing. > There are families of PDP-n things, but there are wide differences in size, weight, and capabilities. > > Your Intellec 230 would fit inside one memory cabinet of a PDP-10 with room to spare. The entire PDP-10 system weighs tons. > > Rich > Rich Alderson > Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computers: Museum + Labs > 2245 1st Ave S >> Seattle, WA 98134 >> >> http://www.LivingComputers.org/ > Sorry.. I was being lazy.. I should have said 'a PDP 8/E'. Obviously there are some pretty large PDP-# systems. > That's more than lazy! Just don't! The PDP-8 and the PDP11 and PDP10 were beating the pants off of Intellec 2xx systems for years before the first one was made. Remember Billy Gates used a PDP10 cross assembler and simulator to create BASIC. The market those DEC system were in demanded far more performance than the 8080 from 1974 could deliver. An 8e running WPS was typically a multi-user system. A PDP-8E running TSS could service 8-16 users in what appeared to them as real time. That was the original Boces Lirics system of 1969 a whopping three racks of PDP-8i The PDP-8e was a tad faster. Fast forward to the early 90s and my Decmate-III with APU and running OS278 likely make the I230 look poor and it was much smaller. FYI the DMIII is a PDP-8 on a chip (cmos 6120 cpu). The APU was a z80 at 4mhz with 64K ram and could still easily outrun the I230 and gave me the choice to use 0S278 (a version of OS8), WPS (word and list processing), and CP/M-80. A PDP-10 (BOCES LIRICS system 1970!) serviced over 300 users. A 36bit monster. The CPU and the memory was eight 6ft racks long by two rows big not including the four RP06s. That system used the old PDP8i to keep it fed (data concentrator). A PDP-11/23 with a 10MB disk in a single 50inch short cab running TSX or other time sharing system usually supported 4-8 users. It was a 16bit system at that. They usually fit in the corner. A Intellect 230 was handily beat by my NS*Horizon system in 1980. That's allowing for the fact that the I230 was 8080 powered and ran at 2mhz (2:1 handicap). I know the system well as I used it to develop programs for 8048/9, 8085, 8088, and other micros of the day till we retired it for a faster box (multibus 8086 at 8mhz in 1981). So a knowledge of computer history and performance is is something to consider. Allison From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Dec 2 17:18:22 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 15:18:22 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff Message-ID: <9r9cxaqmxwfd711bs01y8kcl.1480720702520@email.android.com> -------- Original message -------- From: allison Date: 2016-12-02 2:23 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff On 12/02/2016 12:33 PM, Brad H wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson > Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 1:34 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff > > From: Brad H > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:18 AM > >> My Intellec 230 though might give a PDP a run for its money. > See, I'm trying to get you to stop saying "a PDP".? There's no such thing. > There are families of PDP-n things, but there are wide differences in size, weight, and capabilities. > > Your Intellec 230 would fit inside one memory cabinet of a PDP-10 with room to spare.? The entire PDP-10 system weighs tons. > >???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rich > Rich Alderson > Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computers: Museum + Labs > 2245 1st Ave S >> Seattle, WA 98134 >> >> http://www.LivingComputers.org/ > Sorry.. I was being lazy.. I should have said 'a PDP 8/E'.? Obviously there are some pretty large PDP-# systems. > That's more than lazy!? Just don't! The PDP-8 and the PDP11 and PDP10 were beating the pants off of Intellec 2xx systems for years before the first one was made.? Remember Billy Gates used a PDP10 cross assembler and simulator to create BASIC.? The market those DEC system were in demanded far more performance than the 8080 from 1974 could deliver. An 8e running WPS was typically a multi-user system. A PDP-8E running TSS could service 8-16 users in what appeared to them as real time. That was the original Boces Lirics system of 1969 a whopping three racks of PDP-8i The PDP-8e was a tad faster.? Fast forward to the early 90s and my Decmate-III with APU and running OS278 likely make the I230 look poor and it was much smaller.? FYI the DMIII is a PDP-8 on a chip (cmos 6120 cpu).? The APU was a z80 at 4mhz with 64K ram and could still easily outrun the I230 and gave me the choice to use 0S278 (a version of OS8), WPS (word and list processing), and CP/M-80. A PDP-10 (BOCES LIRICS system 1970!) serviced over 300 users.? A 36bit monster. The CPU and the memory was eight 6ft racks long by two rows big not including the four RP06s. That system used the old PDP8i to keep it fed (data concentrator). A PDP-11/23 with a 10MB disk in a single 50inch short cab running TSX or other time sharing system usually? supported 4-8 users. It was a 16bit system at that. They usually fit in the corner. A Intellect 230 was handily beat by my NS*Horizon system in 1980. That's allowing for the fact that the I230 was 8080 powered and ran at 2mhz (2:1 handicap). I know the system well as I used it to develop programs for 8048/9, 8085, 8088, and other micros of the day till we retired it for a faster box (multibus 8086 at 8mhz in 1981). So a knowledge of computer history and performance is is something to >consider. >Allison Sorry.. when I said 'beat'.. I meant weight only. ?And only for the main PDP-8e system unit. ?Was not comparing processing speed. ?But I appreciate all the info you gave me there for sure. :) From wilson at dbit.com Fri Dec 2 21:21:37 2016 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 22:21:37 -0500 Subject: Ersatz-11 V7.2 Message-ID: <20161203032137.GA19916@dbit.dbit.com> V7.2 of Ersatz-11 is done. New features include: - Intel gigabit Ethernet driver (ASSIGN XH0: IGBE:). - FTP server in DOS and stand-alone versions (FTPSERVER START /ACC=users.txt). - Filename completion with TAB key. - Stand-alone .ISO file is dual-bootable (copy to CD-R or flash drive). - Inactivity timeout for Telnet connections. - Linux full version has DCI1300 driver (for emulating DR11C/DRV11). Bug fixes and tweaks as always. As usual, the Demo version can be downloaded from: http://www.dbit.com/demo.html Updates have been mailed to commercial users with current subscriptions. John Wilson D Bit From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 23:47:30 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 21:47:30 -0800 Subject: Winchester-style coax connectors? In-Reply-To: <5841A182.7060008@pico-systems.com> References: <5841A182.7060008@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <6ea68880-7676-ba56-b0d5-0a3f4bada5c7@gmail.com> On 12/2/16 8:29 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 12/01/2016 01:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> but what I failed to notice is that three of >> the "pins" (for the X, Y and Blank signals) are actually tiny coaxial >> connectors that fit within the Winchester housing (i.e. they're the same >> diameter as a Winchester pin). >> >> > These pins MIGHT be compatible with AMP pins for the "M" series of > connectors. If so, I have some of these pins at work that we will > likely never use. If you can send a photo of the end you have I can > see if it looks like it might work. > > Jon > Here's a pic of a real Imlac video cable (not mine): http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/imlac/cable1.jpg Pins P, J and R are the coaxial pins. And here's a pic of the male side: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/imlac/cable2.jpg If you do have any that look like they will work, let me know. I think I may have tracked down the part (thanks to those here and a fellow who responded off-list, see page 15 of https://3o9g5a3i56xc3au70w1rfrdv-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/C009RevD_StdDenRec.pdf). Thanks, Josh From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 01:54:14 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 01:54:14 -0600 Subject: DMMCheck (Now a word from a non-sponsor) Message-ID: Quick FYI for the bench-techs in the group. A few months back, I became aware of this device, as well as the others produced by the same fellow: http://www.voltagestandard.com/DMMCheck_Plus.html He's producing several types of low-cost, precision voltage / current / frequency references. Prices are reasonable, especially when you consider the re-cal program. Any of these should be more than adequate for the vast majority of our reference / cal requirements. (I have no connection to the mfr. But I do like the product, and wanted to pass it along.) From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 2 17:42:47 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 18:42:47 -0500 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <9r9cxaqmxwfd711bs01y8kcl.1480720702520@email.android.com> References: <9r9cxaqmxwfd711bs01y8kcl.1480720702520@email.android.com> Message-ID: <16e8daa0-1ae2-cc6d-1596-a7e1dad948a8@verizon.net> On 12/02/2016 06:18 PM, Brad H wrote: > > -------- Original message -------- > From: allison > Date: 2016-12-02 2:23 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff > > On 12/02/2016 12:33 PM, Brad H wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson >> Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 1:34 PM >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> Subject: RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff >> >> From: Brad H >> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:18 AM >> >>> My Intellec 230 though might give a PDP a run for its money. >> See, I'm trying to get you to stop saying "a PDP". There's no such thing. >> There are families of PDP-n things, but there are wide differences in size, weight, and capabilities. >> >> Your Intellec 230 would fit inside one memory cabinet of a PDP-10 with room to spare. The entire PDP-10 system weighs tons. >> >> Rich >> Rich Alderson >> Sr. Systems Engineer >> Living Computers: Museum + Labs >> 2245 1st Ave S >>> Seattle, WA 98134 >>> >>> http://www.LivingComputers.org/ >> Sorry.. I was being lazy.. I should have said 'a PDP 8/E'. Obviously there are some pretty large PDP-# systems. >> > That's more than lazy! Just don't! > > The PDP-8 and the PDP11 and PDP10 were beating the pants off of Intellec > 2xx systems > for years before the first one was made. Remember Billy Gates used a > PDP10 cross > assembler and simulator to create BASIC. The market those DEC system > were in > demanded far more performance than the 8080 from 1974 could deliver. > > An 8e running WPS was typically a multi-user system. > A PDP-8E running TSS could service 8-16 users in what appeared to them > as real time. > That was the original Boces Lirics system of 1969 a whopping three racks > of PDP-8i > The PDP-8e was a tad faster. Fast forward to the early 90s and my > Decmate-III with APU > and running OS278 likely make the I230 look poor and it was much > smaller. FYI the DMIII > is a PDP-8 on a chip (cmos 6120 cpu). The APU was a z80 at 4mhz with 64K > ram and could > still easily outrun the I230 and gave me the choice to use 0S278 (a > version of OS8), > WPS (word and list processing), and CP/M-80. > > A PDP-10 (BOCES LIRICS system 1970!) serviced over 300 users. A 36bit > monster. > The CPU and the memory was eight 6ft racks long by two rows big not > including the four RP06s. > That system used the old PDP8i to keep it fed (data concentrator). > > A PDP-11/23 with a 10MB disk in a single 50inch short cab running TSX or > other time sharing > system usually supported 4-8 users. It was a 16bit system at that. > They usually fit in the corner. > > A Intellect 230 was handily beat by my NS*Horizon system in 1980. > That's allowing for > the fact that the I230 was 8080 powered and ran at 2mhz (2:1 handicap). > I know the > system well as I used it to develop programs for 8048/9, 8085, 8088, and > other micros > of the day till we retired it for a faster box (multibus 8086 at 8mhz in > 1981). > > So a knowledge of computer history and performance is is something to >> consider. >> Allison > Sorry.. when I said 'beat'.. I meant weight only. And only for the main PDP-8e system unit. Was not comparing processing speed. But I appreciate all the info you gave me there for sure. :) An 8e box with boards for a reasonable system is still heavier than a I230. That's not counting the IO terminal (asr33). :) I know that as I've had the opportunity to carry both of them to the door and if I got there it was mine, they aren't light at all. FYI I think the DEC docs for the 8E might weigh in as impressive! DEC did some impressive boxes, the documentation and training alone was also pretty important as many of the people familiar with them get their training that way. Intel learned from that model which is why databooks and other info is common from the era. Later RS, Apple, and even IBM would follow the model of get while they are young and make them loyal. Allison From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 2 19:03:29 2016 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 01:03:29 +0000 Subject: Intel iUP-201 repair Message-ID: Hi, I have an Intel iUP-201 EPROM programmer which is giving a 'Power Supply Failure' error. I think it is failing a self check for one of the output voltages from one of its uA723 precision regulators, which are set from resistor networks and multi-turn pots. I have checked all the electrolytic caps and they seem fine, and voltages from the linear power supply look reasonable. I have a user manual but no schematic or service manual, so am a bit in the dark as to where the problem is. I found a range of similar manuals here: http://www.intel-vintage.info/inteldevelopmenttools.htm Please can anyone with further documents for the iUP-201 (or similar iUP-200) please get in touch, Regards, John Intel Development Tools - Intel Vintage www.intel-vintage.info This Site about Intel old staffs like ICs ,Manuals,Tools From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Dec 3 00:01:01 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 01:01:01 -0500 Subject: Growing the hobby Message-ID: <4326c6c2-c1d8-8415-93ac-abb5db16bddd@snarc.net> Hello cctalk'ers, We at the Vintage Computer Federation would like to thank everyone for making 2016 an incredible year. Most of you know us by now, but just in case you don't -- we're a 501(c)3 non-profit created a year ago to organize the Vintage Computer Forum, VCF East, VCF West, and the official VCF Museum (at our NJ headquarters). Our goals are simple -- to empower collectors and spread awareness of computer history. We accomplished great things in 2016. We doubled the size of our museum, hosted the 11th edition of Vintage Computer Festival East, resurrected the former Vintage Computer Festival West, and joined forces with the Vintage Computer Forum. Now we?re asking for your help to keep the momentum going. Can you make a tax-deductible gift to us this holiday season? Over at our contributions page you?ll find four options ? Binary ($10.00), Phreaker ($26.00), 555 Timer ($55.50), S-100 ($100), and Variable (enter your own amount). If you?d like to do something truly awesome, and you happen to live in or will be traveling to the San Francisco / Silicon Valley area, then bid on lunch with Lee Felsenstein through our friends at CharityBuzz (https://www.charitybuzz.com/catalog_items/lunch-for-3-with-personal-computing-social-media-icon-1198500). Lee is a technical and social media legend ? he was a spark behind Community Memory, moderator of the Homebrew Computer Club, and a top engineer for both the Processor Tech Sol-20 and Osborne-1. Bring a few friends, have lunch with Lee at your mutual convenience, and we?ll pay the bill! Where will your money go? We are planning even more things for 2017 and beyond. Vintage Computer Festival East XII will be held March 31 through April 2 at our museum. We are currently planning Vintage Computer Festival West XII and will announce the dates soon. We?re considering expansion of the Festival to other cities, we?re looking to incubate additional regional chapters, we are planning to offer more resources online, and we?re preparing a slew of improvements to the physical museum. If you thought we were active this year, then 2017 is going to exhaust us ? but we love every minute of it! If you want even your news even more frequent and granular, then you?ve got options! Read our blog at vcfed.org, join the discussion forum there, like us at facebook.com/vcfederation, and follow us through twitter.com/vcfederation. Finally, if you have questions or comments, then please feel free to contact me directly. Thank you, Evan Koblentz Director, Vintage Computer Federation Evan at vcfed.org From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 3 09:06:56 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 07:06:56 -0800 Subject: Black anti-static foam corrosion Message-ID: I was curious what the compound is that corrodes IC leads in old black anti-static foam adipic acid https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-July/032531.html and google for polyurethane and adipic acid https://www.jstor.org/stable/20619421 Corrosion on Metallic Tokens Stored in Polyurethane Foam From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 3 09:37:26 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 10:37:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C Message-ID: <20161203153726.C1B3018C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I'm working on the prints now. OK, done and uploaded: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C-DB_EngrDrws_Dec72.pdf I haven't had the time to pore over them to figure out exactly what the changes do, but they add two buffer registers (ABUF and BBUF), so they probably offer greater resilience to DMA contention on the UNIBUS. I don't yet know if they are used for write as well as read (the RK11-C-DB block diagram in the prints suggests not, as it doesn't show a path from any RK registers to the ABUF, just from the UNIBUS - i.e. only usable on reads), or if there are any user-visible programming changes (I suspect not). For those with an RK11-C, these prints are somewhat clearer than the prints for the 'basic' RK11-C which are online, so although there are a number of changes (see: http://gunkies.org/wiki/RK11-C_disk_controller#Engineering_drawings for info on which sheets have changes), use of these can help decipher some of the hard-to-read pages of the 'basic' RK11-C drawings. Also, the prints for the 'basic' RK11-C are missing a couple of pages: 18 - Disk Cable and Termination 19 - Bus "D" Drvrs and Rcvrs which are present (albeit perhaps modified, for the second one) in this set. Noel From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 3 14:13:51 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 21:13:51 +0100 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? Message-ID: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi folks, I have an HP1631D Logic Analyzer for some years now und got an HP9121 dual Floppy drive that fits to it yesterday. I've tested the drive, formating disks, storing and reading data ist working :-) While reading the Users Manual of the LA I've found out that besides of storing setup- and configuration data on the disk, there should some loadable disassemblers for the HP1631D exist on floppies.. The Logic Analyzer is very limited from todays point of view but for example an Z80 disassembler where nice to have. Has someone out here such disassemblers (Z180, 8085, 8080, 6809 etc) for the HP1631D? BTW: My unit has an "upgraded from HP1630" printed on the faceplate.. are there possibilities to upgrade it further? More Memory etc? ..same Question for the Dolch (DLI) C100D, there should exist some ROM based Disassemblers and I'm looking fors uch Eprom Contentes. Currently I have additionally two Dolch 64300 with some additional Software here, but the Eproms don't fit in to the later C100D. Thats ugly, since the C100D is much smaller.... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Dec 3 14:51:35 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 12:51:35 -0800 Subject: Intel C1101A Message-ID: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> Putting this out there for those hopefully in the know. I have been acquiring date-correct ICs and parts for my Mark-8 project, which is years down the line. I'm planning to build it on very carefully replicated clone boards, based off my originals. For my purposes, I'm trying to keep ICs early 1975 or earlier. Most Mark-8s that I've seen have P1101a plastic encapsulated RAMs. Most are Intel brand, but I've seen some that I think might be National or something.. they just say P1101A on top. The only source other than ebay that I have are those big chip vendors like Summit. And the problem with them is they aren't always precise about date codes. The P1101A, because they were produced for years, have a wide range of codes and the places I prospected them from couldn't guarantee 75 or prior. To my surprise, I found a few places had C1101A. They are white ceramic, gold legs. They have a 'batch code' of F1268. I got 16 of them for $14 each. I was going to get 32, but Summit also surprised me with 5 1973 vintage Signetics n8263s @ $25 each. I hadn't been able to find any pre-1980 so I snatched those.. but that put me beyond a budget where I could buy 32. I figured I'd buy 16 chips for now and then buy another 16 the next month. Now of course, the chip houses have turned tables on me. They want $48 per chip instead of $14 like last time. And checking around, that seems to be uniform. Now, I'm not averse to paying that, though it will sting. But I want to make sure my assumptions are correct.. that these white vintage ICs are in fact pre-76. Can anyone confirm that? The info out there is a little vague. And would it be totally out of place for C1101as to be on a Mark-8? Could a hobbyist have had a source for them, beyond having some lying around? From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 15:42:52 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 13:42:52 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi folks, > > I have an HP1631D Logic Analyzer for some years now und got an HP9121 > dual Floppy drive that fits to it yesterday. > I've tested the drive, formating disks, storing and reading data ist > working :-) > While reading the Users Manual of the LA I've found out that besides of > storing setup- and configuration data on the disk, there should some > loadable disassemblers for the HP1631D exist on floppies.. > > The Logic Analyzer is very limited from todays point of view but for > example an Z80 disassembler where nice to have. > Has someone out here such disassemblers (Z180, 8085, 8080, 6809 etc) > for the HP1631D? I have a 3.5-inch floppy part number 10342-13012 for the 10342B Bus Preprocessor (HP-IB, RS-232C/V.24, RS-449) for HP1630A/D/G and 1631A/D logic analyzers. I'll have to create an ImageDisk dump of that floppy. I also have a tape somewhere if I can find it that is probably for the either the 6800/6802 10307B (64672B) or 6809/6809E 10308B (64671A) preprocessor if I remember correctly. I don't have an 82161A HP-IL tape drive to try to read and dump that tape. If I find that tape I should send it to someone with a working 82161A HP-IL tape drive and the means to dump and archive that tape. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 3 15:47:56 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 15:47:56 -0600 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <000001d24dae$e8677bf0$b93673d0$@classiccmp.org> If there are any problems reading Glen's copy, let me know, I have the same disks for my 1631. Might have gotten them from Glen :) J From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Dec 3 16:00:26 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 23:00:26 +0100 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <001101d24db0$a868d0b0$f93a7210$@xs4all.nl> Glen, Are you sure it's the HP 82161 drive that's for the 82176A mini cassette and not the DC100 tapes. If it's the DC100 tape, it may be possible to read it with a HP-85 or an 9877A tape drive. It depends on the tape format if the tapes are readable on other systems. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Glen Slick > Verzonden: zaterdag 3 december 2016 22:43 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? > > On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > I have an HP1631D Logic Analyzer for some years now und got an HP9121 > > dual Floppy drive that fits to it yesterday. > > I've tested the drive, formating disks, storing and reading data ist > > working :-) While reading the Users Manual of the LA I've found out > > that besides of storing setup- and configuration data on the disk, > > there should some loadable disassemblers for the HP1631D exist on > > floppies.. > > > > The Logic Analyzer is very limited from todays point of view but for > > example an Z80 disassembler where nice to have. > > Has someone out here such disassemblers (Z180, 8085, 8080, 6809 etc) > > for the HP1631D? > > I have a 3.5-inch floppy part number 10342-13012 for the 10342B Bus > Preprocessor (HP-IB, RS-232C/V.24, RS-449) for HP1630A/D/G and 1631A/D > logic analyzers. I'll have to create an ImageDisk dump of that floppy. > > I also have a tape somewhere if I can find it that is probably for the either the > 6800/6802 10307B (64672B) or 6809/6809E 10308B (64671A) preprocessor if I > remember correctly. I don't have an 82161A HP-IL tape drive to try to read and > dump that tape. If I find that tape I should send it to someone with a working > 82161A HP-IL tape drive and the means to dump and archive that tape. From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 16:06:21 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 23:06:21 +0100 Subject: ISO Tekelec Chameleon 32 mfm disk In-Reply-To: <707b0f3d-7670-a5e8-19a3-42db185c10a9@bitsavers.org> References: <707b0f3d-7670-a5e8-19a3-42db185c10a9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: 2016-11-28 20:27 GMT+01:00 Al Kossow : > Slim chance, but does anyone have a working Chameleon that I could clone > the software off of? > They are 40mb MFM drives, I just bought two, and both units are missing > the drives, making them > boat anchors. Or, slimmer yet, if someone has the software on floppy > I am not sure if this is what you are looking for. I have a Tekelec Chameleon. Not tested though. Might be able to power it up if there are interest. Or pull the harddrive and make an image using Davids MFM emulator. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-rp4vyPPYu1Sjk3V2lUUk50ZTg From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 16:34:25 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 14:34:25 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: <001101d24db0$a868d0b0$f93a7210$@xs4all.nl> References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <001101d24db0$a868d0b0$f93a7210$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > Glen, > > Are you sure it's the HP 82161 drive that's for the 82176A mini cassette and not the DC100 tapes. > If it's the DC100 tape, it may be possible to read it with a HP-85 or an 9877A tape drive. > It depends on the tape format if the tapes are readable on other systems. > > -Rik I found the tape. It is a "MINI DATA CASSETTE": http://www.hpmuseum.net/images/82176A-40.jpg Part number 10269-11014, "6809 INVERSE ASSEMBLER". This page says the 82176A cartridges are extremely reliable and they have been able to read every tape they have come accross: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=676 I have no means to read and dump this tape myself. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 3 17:24:45 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 15:24:45 -0800 Subject: ISO Tekelec Chameleon 32 mfm disk In-Reply-To: References: <707b0f3d-7670-a5e8-19a3-42db185c10a9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5a96e31f-c627-a048-765f-136c28fbfaff@bitsavers.org> On 12/3/16 2:06 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-11-28 20:27 GMT+01:00 Al Kossow : > >> Slim chance, but does anyone have a working Chameleon that I could clone >> the software off of? >> They are 40mb MFM drives, I just bought two, and both units are missing >> the drives, making them >> boat anchors. Or, slimmer yet, if someone has the software on floppy >> > > > I am not sure if this is what you are looking for. I have a Tekelec > Chameleon. > > Not tested though. Might be able to power it up if there are interest. Or > pull the harddrive and make an image using Davids MFM emulator. > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-rp4vyPPYu1Sjk3V2lUUk50ZTg > that is the earlier model, but it would be a good idea to pull the hd and image that and the floppies. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 20:51:43 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 20:51:43 -0600 Subject: Black anti-static foam corrosion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting find, thanks for posting this. I've seen this as well. with a batch of old ICs which had been stored (in black foam) for some 20-30 years. The leads kind of just stayed behind in the foam.. My assumption was that the foam was simply hygroscopic, and held enough atmospheric moisture & pollutants to foster corrosion. On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I was curious what the compound is that corrodes IC leads in old black > anti-static foam > > adipic acid > > https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-July/032531.html > > and google for polyurethane and adipic acid > > https://www.jstor.org/stable/20619421 > Corrosion on Metallic Tokens Stored in Polyurethane Foam > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 3 21:24:43 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 19:24:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Black anti-static foam corrosion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, drlegendre . wrote: > Interesting find, thanks for posting this. I've seen this as well. with a > batch of old ICs which had been stored (in black foam) for some 20-30 > years. The leads kind of just stayed behind in the foam.. > My assumption was that the foam was simply hygroscopic, and held enough > atmospheric moisture & pollutants to foster corrosion. There are numerous black foam formulations. I inherited some lenses (including a Leitz Tele-Elmarit 180mm (<250 made)) that had been stored for a few decades in an essentially airtight case with black foam. When I first opened the case, it seemed as though there was liquid in the case, with an intense vinegar? smell. Second time that I opened the case, a few hours later, it was dry and crumbly, and the outer painted surfaces of the lenses were badly pitted and had to scrape bits of the foam off, but NOT at all like water damage. It turned that lens from mint condition and a major rarity, into usable but POOR cosmetic condition (a loss of more than a thousand dollars in value!). (Three other cases had simply disappeared between the time my buddy died and the time that the county let us go through the house.) From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Dec 3 21:33:10 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 22:33:10 -0500 Subject: Black anti-static foam corrosion Message-ID: let me know if you have a 90 mm summacron f2(?) a nice working one is great! I not good inside but looks ok on the outside let me know... we need it to go on an M2 in a display. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 12/3/2016 8:24:48 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, drlegendre . wrote: > Interesting find, thanks for posting this. I've seen this as well. with a > batch of old ICs which had been stored (in black foam) for some 20-30 > years. The leads kind of just stayed behind in the foam.. > My assumption was that the foam was simply hygroscopic, and held enough > atmospheric moisture & pollutants to foster corrosion. There are numerous black foam formulations. I inherited some lenses (including a Leitz Tele-Elmarit 180mm (<250 made)) that had been stored for a few decades in an essentially airtight case with black foam. When I first opened the case, it seemed as though there was liquid in the case, with an intense vinegar? smell. Second time that I opened the case, a few hours later, it was dry and crumbly, and the outer painted surfaces of the lenses were badly pitted and had to scrape bits of the foam off, but NOT at all like water damage. It turned that lens from mint condition and a major rarity, into usable but POOR cosmetic condition (a loss of more than a thousand dollars in value!). (Three other cases had simply disappeared between the time my buddy died and the time that the county let us go through the house.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 3 21:46:13 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 19:46:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Black anti-static foam corrosion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > (Three other cases had simply disappeared between the time my buddy > > died and the time that the county let us go through the house.) On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > let me know if you have a 90 mm summacron f2(?) > a nice working one is great! I not good inside but looks ok on the > outside let me know... we need it to go on an M2 in a display. The Summicrons (I know there was a 50mm and a 90mm, but I don't know about 35mm) and the M series bodies, had been in those three cases. And his two PBM-1000's (Micropro computer) were dumpstered. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Dec 3 22:24:13 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 23:24:13 -0500 Subject: Black anti-static foam corrosion Message-ID: a loss indeed... Well we have the M2 body and light meter to go on top. All we just need the lens so if you ever find another please let us know! Thanks ! Ed# In a message dated 12/3/2016 8:46:15 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: > > (Three other cases had simply disappeared between the time my buddy > > died and the time that the county let us go through the house.) On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > let me know if you have a 90 mm summacron f2(?) > a nice working one is great! I not good inside but looks ok on the > outside let me know... we need it to go on an M2 in a display. The Summicrons (I know there was a 50mm and a 90mm, but I don't know about 35mm) and the M series bodies, had been in those three cases. And his two PBM-1000's (Micropro computer) were dumpstered. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 4 00:30:06 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 06:30:06 +0000 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: I'm not sure I know how to decode Intel's date codes. I was looking at some of the old parts I got from a friend that was proto types from the lab. I have a C8008-1 with F5000, a 31013 with 0587 and a 1101 with 776. I know the 31013 couldn't have been 1987 because neither he nor I were working for Intel by then. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brad H Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 12:51:35 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Intel C1101A Putting this out there for those hopefully in the know. I have been acquiring date-correct ICs and parts for my Mark-8 project, which is years down the line. I'm planning to build it on very carefully replicated clone boards, based off my originals. For my purposes, I'm trying to keep ICs early 1975 or earlier. Most Mark-8s that I've seen have P1101a plastic encapsulated RAMs. Most are Intel brand, but I've seen some that I think might be National or something.. they just say P1101A on top. The only source other than ebay that I have are those big chip vendors like Summit. And the problem with them is they aren't always precise about date codes. The P1101A, because they were produced for years, have a wide range of codes and the places I prospected them from couldn't guarantee 75 or prior. To my surprise, I found a few places had C1101A. They are white ceramic, gold legs. They have a 'batch code' of F1268. I got 16 of them for $14 each. I was going to get 32, but Summit also surprised me with 5 1973 vintage Signetics n8263s @ $25 each. I hadn't been able to find any pre-1980 so I snatched those.. but that put me beyond a budget where I could buy 32. I figured I'd buy 16 chips for now and then buy another 16 the next month. Now of course, the chip houses have turned tables on me. They want $48 per chip instead of $14 like last time. And checking around, that seems to be uniform. Now, I'm not averse to paying that, though it will sting. But I want to make sure my assumptions are correct.. that these white vintage ICs are in fact pre-76. Can anyone confirm that? The info out there is a little vague. And would it be totally out of place for C1101as to be on a Mark-8? Could a hobbyist have had a source for them, beyond having some lying around? From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 01:07:54 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 07:07:54 +0000 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <001101d24db0$a868d0b0$f93a7210$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > This page says the 82176A cartridges are extremely reliable and they > have been able to read every tape they have come accross: > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=676 I have had them fail, but so far not in a way that makes them unreadable. The main problem is the pressure pad (foam-backed felt) which fails in the obvious way. A bit of felt stuck to double-sided foam tape will work for long enough to read the tape. Once the splice between the leader tape and the magnetic tape failed. It can be repaired using the splicing block for Compact Cassettes, the tape is the same width. The oddest failure I had was when the mirror that reflects IR for the BOT/EOT sensor lost its reflective coating. The easiest way I found to cure that was to reassemble the cassette upside-down having cut an extra notch in the back edge and filled in the that was already there so the cassette would go into the drive that way up. -tony From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 01:14:18 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2016 23:14:18 -0800 Subject: DMMCheck (Now a word from a non-sponsor) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C755C2B-F126-45BD-A5F2-45C9C8C22314@gmail.com> Thanks! This was very useful to me. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "drlegendre ." Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Friday, December 2, 2016 at 11:54 PM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: DMMCheck (Now a word from a non-sponsor) Quick FYI for the bench-techs in the group. A few months back, I became aware of this device, as well as the others produced by the same fellow: http://www.voltagestandard.com/DMMCheck_Plus.html He's producing several types of low-cost, precision voltage / current / frequency references. Prices are reasonable, especially when you consider the re-cal program. Any of these should be more than adequate for the vast majority of our reference / cal requirements. (I have no connection to the mfr. But I do like the product, and wanted to pass it along.) From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Dec 4 04:57:08 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 02:57:08 -0800 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <184f49c6-231b-539b-e6f0-6b5fdc3d0089@jwsss.com> On 12/3/2016 10:30 PM, dwight wrote: > I'm not sure I know how to decode Intel's date codes. > > I was looking at some of the old parts I got from a friend that > > was proto types from the lab. > > I have a C8008-1 with F5000, a 31013 with 0587 and > > a 1101 with 776. > > I know the 31013 couldn't have been 1987 because > > neither he nor I were working for Intel by then. > > Dwight I might have contact that can get hold of Intel folks and others. Also have some people who know the intel coding to some degree who were IC schlockers. They may have forgotten it all though. thanks Jim > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Brad H > Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 12:51:35 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Intel C1101A > > Putting this out there for those hopefully in the know. > > > > I have been acquiring date-correct ICs and parts for my Mark-8 project, > which is years down the line. I'm planning to build it on very carefully > replicated clone boards, based off my originals. For my purposes, I'm > trying to keep ICs early 1975 or earlier. > > > > Most Mark-8s that I've seen have P1101a plastic encapsulated RAMs. Most are > Intel brand, but I've seen some that I think might be National or > something.. they just say P1101A on top. > > > > The only source other than ebay that I have are those big chip vendors like > Summit. And the problem with them is they aren't always precise about date > codes. The P1101A, because they were produced for years, have a wide range > of codes and the places I prospected them from couldn't guarantee 75 or > prior. > > > > To my surprise, I found a few places had C1101A. They are white ceramic, > gold legs. They have a 'batch code' of F1268. I got 16 of them for $14 > each. I was going to get 32, but Summit also surprised me with 5 1973 > vintage Signetics n8263s @ $25 each. I hadn't been able to find any > pre-1980 so I snatched those.. but that put me beyond a budget where I could > buy 32. I figured I'd buy 16 chips for now and then buy another 16 the next > month. > > > > Now of course, the chip houses have turned tables on me. They want $48 per > chip instead of $14 like last time. And checking around, that seems to be > uniform. Now, I'm not averse to paying that, though it will sting. But I > want to make sure my assumptions are correct.. that these white vintage ICs > are in fact pre-76. Can anyone confirm that? The info out there is a > little vague. > > > > And would it be totally out of place for C1101as to be on a Mark-8? Could a > hobbyist have had a source for them, beyond having some lying around? > > > From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 05:42:49 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 04:42:49 -0700 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 11:30 PM, dwight wrote: > I'm not sure I know how to decode Intel's date codes. > Many years ago I heard from a not-necessarily-reliable source that Intel used lot numbers rather than date codes, so without access to Intel internal records, it wasn't possible to determine the manufacturing date. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 4 08:51:48 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 14:51:48 +0000 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> , Message-ID: I should note that the 1101 I have is a ceramic, non-A part as well. I've heard the same thing, Eric. Date codes are not dates. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 3:42:49 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Intel C1101A On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 11:30 PM, dwight wrote: > I'm not sure I know how to decode Intel's date codes. > Many years ago I heard from a not-necessarily-reliable source that Intel used lot numbers rather than date codes, so without access to Intel internal records, it wasn't possible to determine the manufacturing date. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 4 10:51:25 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 16:51:25 -0000 Subject: Sticking a VT100 Keyboard Foot Back On Message-ID: <014001d24e4e$a7731b40$f65951c0$@ntlworld.com> The rubber feet on my VT100 keyboards are falling off. The feet are in good condition, just the glue seems to be failing. Does anyone know what kind of glue should be used to stick them back on reliably? Thanks Rob From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Dec 4 11:46:38 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2016 18:46:38 +0100 Subject: Black anti-static foam corrosion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1480873598.23367.45.camel@agj.net> l?r 2016-12-03 klockan 19:46 -0800 skrev Fred Cisin: > > > (Three other cases had simply disappeared between the time my buddy > > > died and the time that the county let us go through the house.) > > On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > let me know if you have a 90 mm summacron f2(?) > > a nice working one is great! I not good inside but looks ok on the > > outside let me know... we need it to go on an M2 in a display. > > The Summicrons (I know there was a 50mm and a 90mm, but I don't know about > 35mm) and the M series bodies, had been in those three cases. > > And his two PBM-1000's (Micropro computer) were dumpstered. > The lenses, were they stolen after his death until the county sheriff released his house ? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 4 11:52:34 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 09:52:34 -0800 Subject: Sticking a VT100 Keyboard Foot Back On In-Reply-To: <014001d24e4e$a7731b40$f65951c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <014001d24e4e$a7731b40$f65951c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <35350226-9ad1-76b2-3b5c-77f6414eaf75@sydex.com> On 12/04/2016 08:51 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The rubber feet on my VT100 keyboards are falling off. The feet are > in good condition, just the glue seems to be failing. Does anyone > know what kind of glue should be used to stick them back on > reliably? Plain old rubber contact cement (e.g. Weldwood or Barge) works extremely well. Make sure both parts to be joined are clean and free of the remnants of the old glue, apply a thin coat to both parts (you may want to mask the keyboard off), allow both parts to dry (no longer "tacky"). Position the foot carefully over the keyboard and press down. You get only one try to get the positioning correct--the bond is fairly permanent. I've done this quite a bit with rubber feet and have never had one come loose again. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 4 12:34:26 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 10:34:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Black anti-static foam corrosion In-Reply-To: <1480873598.23367.45.camel@agj.net> References: <1480873598.23367.45.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: >>>> (Three other cases had simply disappeared between the time my buddy >>>> died and the time that the county let us go through the house.) On Sun, 4 Dec 2016, Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) wrote: > The lenses, were they stolen after his death until the county sheriff > released his house ? Yes. But there is no proof. Although the Tele-Elmarit had sat on a shelf for decades, Chris had used one of the lenses in the other cases and put it back into its case a few days before he died. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sun Dec 4 17:29:57 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 15:29:57 -0800 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> , Message-ID: <056301d24e86$547b0be0$fd7123a0$@bettercomputing.net> The supplier (a different one from the one I first used) that quoted me on C1101A for the second round sent me a picture.. exact same 'lot' or 'job' number as the ones I have. So perhaps even that may not be meaningful? What are the odds I'd hit the exact same dates from two different suppliers? I'm thinking it's *fairly* safe to assume white ceramic is pre-76, at least.. but yeah.. might be impossible to ever really know. I'm just wondering why the price jumped to $40+ each all of a sudden! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 6:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Intel C1101A I should note that the 1101 I have is a ceramic, non-A part as well. I've heard the same thing, Eric. Date codes are not dates. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 3:42:49 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Intel C1101A On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 11:30 PM, dwight wrote: > I'm not sure I know how to decode Intel's date codes. > Many years ago I heard from a not-necessarily-reliable source that Intel used lot numbers rather than date codes, so without access to Intel internal records, it wasn't possible to determine the manufacturing date. From hugh at blemings.org Sun Dec 4 19:02:45 2016 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 12:02:45 +1100 Subject: FTGH: HP 100/150 Series Memory Boards (45632, 45631) Message-ID: Hi, I've been assisting a friend with the deceased estate of a local ham radio operator. In among the myriad RF related items were the following; Qty 5 HP 45632-60001 384kB Memory Module 150 Qty 1 HP 45631-60001 256kB Memory Module 150 http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=383 We have no way to test, but given the condition we would assume they are working ok. Free for the cost of postage to anyone who wants them provided you cover freight (From Belconnen, ACT, Australia 2616) Happy to ship overseas - contact me off list and I can give dimensions and weight etc. They will be off to generic computer recycling two weeks from now. Cheers, Hugh From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Dec 4 19:17:58 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 17:17:58 -0800 Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C In-Reply-To: <20161203153726.C1B3018C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161203153726.C1B3018C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <589AFA27-D652-41A2-AE20-B96685D16ADA@fritzm.org> So, the RK11-C disk controller page over at gunkies says ?no [indicator panel] inlay for such has even been sighted??. But then over at bisavers, I see this: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/pictures/1120_RSTS-11/1120_RK_Panel_RSTS-11.jpg From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Dec 4 20:00:03 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 18:00:03 -0800 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: <056301d24e86$547b0be0$fd7123a0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> <056301d24e86$547b0be0$fd7123a0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <7fcd973f-6f5f-ff03-863d-09583c8a6cf7@jwsss.com> On 12/4/2016 3:29 PM, Brad H wrote: > The supplier (a different one from the one I first used) that quoted me on > C1101A for the second round sent me a picture.. exact same 'lot' or 'job' > number as the ones I have. So perhaps even that may not be meaningful? > What are the odds I'd hit the exact same dates from two different suppliers? > > I'm thinking it's*fairly* safe to assume white ceramic is pre-76, at > least.. but yeah.. might be impossible to ever really know. I'm just > wondering why the price jumped to $40+ each all of a sudden! Brad, a very large number of schlock IC sellers all communicate with each other. They all have a continuous stream of wants or needs that they exchange. but they make their own prices. The probability is that you may have hit the original stocking guy with your first query. Querying any others will result in them looking at the wants that others shared, or buys, and he saw someone else had it and quoted you the same info. I know this happens as I know two guys who trade in all manner of stock all the time like this and have for 35 to 40 years. thanks Jim From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 4 20:16:49 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 21:16:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C Message-ID: <20161205021649.464C618C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > But then over at bisavers, I see this: Yes, that's the panel I found the picture of in the RSTS-11 brochure a while back: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-November/029104.html The picture in the brochure is not very very hi-res, but Al Kossow recently located some original photos in the DEC section of the archive, and the image you sent the URL for is one of them. I've been puzzling over what this thing is. It looks 'kinda-sorta' like an RK11-C panel (the registers it shows are sort of the RK11 registers), but if you look at the print for the "RK11-C Indicator Connectors: RK11-C-23" (page 34 of the RK11-C Engineering Drawings PDF), you can see the pinout, and it doesn't match. E.g. look at the lower right line of lights on the panel: 4 bits of Bit Counter, a blank, 8 bits of Internal Word Counter, a blank, and three bits of Major State; now look at the RK11-C prints, connector B32: 4 bits of Bit Counter, 8 bits of Internal Word Counter, a blank, Postamble, Checksum, Data, Header, Preamble. Close, but different. One thing I have been wondering about is that "RK11-C" - that implies that there was a -B, etc. I wonder if this panel goes with one of them? (Or perhaps it is a custom prototype?) I have never been able to find out anything about an earlier version of the RK11: the earliest Peripherals Handbook that I have is the 1972 Red/White one, and it only talks about the -C. Also, the Spare Module Handbook (a fantastic resource, it lists the boards in almost every PDP-8/10/11 option) mentions the -C and -D, but no other ones. However, given the example of the KT11-B, which was totally unknown until the documentation for one showed up with the -11/20 in Arizona, thereby proving that there _was_ a KT11-B before the KT11-C (the -11/45's MMU), I would guess that there likely _was_ an RK11-B, and perhaps this panel goes with that (or an earlier one). Any further information would be most welcome. Noel From jonas at otter.se Sun Dec 4 14:10:44 2016 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 21:10:44 +0100 Subject: Base 64 posts to the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the suggestion. My delivery was set to MIME, I have changed it to plain text. Hopefully that will solve the problem. On 12/02/2016 06:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > I'm not sure if it would make a difference but in your membership options to the list you can choose the format of the messages and how you'd like to receive them. I know my settings are plain text but I haven't played with the others to know if they have an option like that. > The only time I've seen base 64 coded stuff are spam pop-ups trying to bypass plaintext filters. Interesting to hear there's some legitimate usage happening. From isking at uw.edu Sun Dec 4 14:39:32 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 12:39:32 -0800 Subject: Base 64 posts to the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: > Thanks for the suggestion. My delivery was set to MIME, I have changed it > to plain text. Hopefully that will solve the problem. > > What? No format flame war? What's this world coming to? -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 22:21:46 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 23:21:46 -0500 Subject: Looking for small quantity of grip rings for Boxer fans Message-ID: Hi, All, I'm refurbing some of my DEC equipment and I found some dirty/sticky Boxer fans, no surprise. I managed to get one apart, cleaned and lubed and spinning freely, then one of the grip rings shot off into space. I found this reference... http://www.cirteq.com/pdfs/cirteq_technical_manual.pdf The style in question covered on pages 85-86 (metric then standard) One of the comments is next to a diagram of the correct type... "Lug design for sizes 7-9-11-19-23-27" Based on that, it's probably an NG023, since the shaft looks to be 0.250 or slightly smaller not slightly larger. d1 == 0.236" (shaft diameter) d3 == 0.224" (clip ID) s == 0.039" (clip thickness) Has anyone had to buy grip rings for their fan refurbs before? Do these numbers sound right? -ethan From hugh at blemings.org Mon Dec 5 03:35:47 2016 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 20:35:47 +1100 Subject: FTGH: HP 100/150 Series Memory Boards (45632, 45631) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, These boards appear to have found a new home, thank you for the interest. Cheers, Hugh From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 5 00:44:57 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 22:44:57 -0800 Subject: Looking for small quantity of grip rings for Boxer fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/4/2016 8:21 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Has anyone had to buy grip rings for their fan refurbs before? Do > these numbers sound right? Car door last saturday. Home Depot hardware, no, Ace hardware selection had the E-clips we needed in that case. The ring had disintegrated off the end of my drivers side lock cylinder, and the wire and lever was dangling loose, and the key turned freely outside. Not so good. Had no idea what it was. called Dodge, they said we don't know what 13 year old cars had in them, try e-clips. Still working now. Ace had a lot of stuff available by the piece, very reasonable. In my experience Lowe's also had a good collection, but I wasn't doing the repair (paid a friend to pull the door of who worked for Toyota dealership and did it for a living). thanks Jim From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Dec 5 08:33:50 2016 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 08:33:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi folks, > > I have an HP1631D Logic Analyzer for some years now und got an HP9121 > dual Floppy drive that fits to it yesterday. > I've tested the drive, formating disks, storing and reading data ist > working :-) > While reading the Users Manual of the LA I've found out that besides of > storing setup- and configuration data on the disk, there should some > loadable disassemblers for the HP1631D exist on floppies.. > > The Logic Analyzer is very limited from todays point of view but for > example an Z80 disassembler where nice to have. > Has someone out here such disassemblers (Z180, 8085, 8080, 6809 etc) > for the HP1631D? Hey Holm; I'm _pretty sure_ I have the Z80 disassembler for the 1630. I have a 1630G and a 9121, but unfortunately I was never able to get the 1631 to talk to the 9121 - I don't know if the drive was bad as I have no other way to test it. Has anyone else gotten you an image of this? if not I can try and figure out a way to image it. - JP From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 5 08:35:04 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 06:35:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Base 64 posts to the list In-Reply-To: from "Ian S. King" at "Dec 4, 16 12:39:32 pm" Message-ID: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> > > Thanks for the suggestion. My delivery was set to MIME, I have changed it > > to plain text. Hopefully that will solve the problem. > > What? No format flame war? What's this world coming to? emacs sucks! *waits patiently* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Marry me and I'll never look at another horse! -- Groucho Marx ------------- From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 09:36:19 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 07:36:19 -0800 Subject: Base 64 posts to the list In-Reply-To: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:35 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Thanks for the suggestion. My delivery was set to MIME, I have changed > it > > > to plain text. Hopefully that will solve the problem. > > > > What? No format flame war? What's this world coming to? > > emacs sucks! > > *waits patiently* > > -- > Little-endian!!! ] -- Charles From db at db.net Mon Dec 5 10:03:24 2016 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 11:03:24 -0500 Subject: Base 64 posts to the list In-Reply-To: References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> On Mon, Dec 05, 2016 at 07:36:19AM -0800, Charles Anthony wrote: > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:35 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > > Thanks for the suggestion. My delivery was set to MIME, I have changed > > it > > > > to plain text. Hopefully that will solve the problem. > > > > > > What? No format flame war? What's this world coming to? > > > > emacs sucks! > > > > *waits patiently* > > > > -- > > > > Little-endian!!! Middle-endian FTW!!!! > ] > -- Charles > -- Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From lproven at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 10:05:48 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 17:05:48 +0100 Subject: Base 64 posts to the list In-Reply-To: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 5 December 2016 at 15:35, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > emacs sucks! I agree. So does Vi. > *waits patiently* There, does that help? :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Dec 5 10:51:20 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 11:51:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> Message-ID: <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Little-endian!!! > Middle-endian FTW!!!! That makes me wonder: was there any hardware that used an endianness such that conversion didn't loop with period 2? Little- and big-endian do this; conversion between them is byteswapping, which is self-inverse. Conversion between PDP11-endian (0x87654321 stored as 0x65 0x87 0x21 0x43) and either big- or little-endian is also self-inverse. Is there any hardware for which conversion between its native storage format and any of these three is not self-inverse? To put it another way, and rather more loosely, is there one for which htonl and ntohl are actually different operations? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 5 11:17:43 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 09:17:43 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> On 12/05/2016 08:51 AM, Mouse wrote: > > Little- and big-endian do this; conversion between them is > byteswapping, which is self-inverse. Conversion between > PDP11-endian (0x87654321 stored as 0x65 0x87 0x21 0x43) and either > big- or little-endian is also self-inverse. Is there any hardware > for which conversion between its native storage format and any of > these three is not self-inverse? To put it another way, and rather > more loosely, is there one for which htonl and ntohl are actually > different operations? Decimal machines, such as the 1620 and 1401? Of course, these aren't word-oriented machines either, but variable-length systems. Conversion between either of those and your VAX is not simply a matter of byte-swapping. Or how about architectures not using a word length that's an integral number of bytes? --Chuck From dab at froghouse.org Mon Dec 5 12:37:13 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 13:37:13 -0500 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/05/2016 12:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Or how about architectures not using a word length that's an integral > number of bytes? You mean like any 36-bit machine? From dab at froghouse.org Mon Dec 5 12:38:44 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 13:38:44 -0500 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5dc7607a-2bd2-b7e0-08d5-d98111c34daf@froghouse.org> On 12/05/2016 11:51 AM, Mouse wrote: >> Middle-endian FTW!!!! > That makes me wonder: was there any hardware that used an endianness > such that conversion didn't loop with period 2? Not quite the same thing but weren't longwords on the PDP-11 little-endian for the bytes within the word but big-endian for words within the longword? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 13:14:05 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 19:14:05 -0000 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David > Bridgham > Sent: 05 December 2016 18:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] > > On 12/05/2016 12:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Or how about architectures not using a word length that's an integral > > number of bytes? > > You mean like any 36-bit machine? Honeywell L66 & DPS8 used to have 36 bit words which originally contained 6 x 6-bit characters. When they extended the machines to work with ASCII they put 4 x 9-bit characters which I seem to remember they called 9-bit bytes.. Dave From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Dec 5 13:31:54 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 20:31:54 +0100 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> JP Hindin wrote: > > > On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > I have an HP1631D Logic Analyzer for some years now und got an HP9121 > > dual Floppy drive that fits to it yesterday. > > I've tested the drive, formating disks, storing and reading data ist > > working :-) > > While reading the Users Manual of the LA I've found out that besides of > > storing setup- and configuration data on the disk, there should some > > loadable disassemblers for the HP1631D exist on floppies.. > > > > The Logic Analyzer is very limited from todays point of view but for > > example an Z80 disassembler where nice to have. > > Has someone out here such disassemblers (Z180, 8085, 8080, 6809 etc) > > for the HP1631D? > > Hey Holm; > > I'm _pretty sure_ I have the Z80 disassembler for the 1630. I have a 1630G > and a 9121, but unfortunately I was never able to get the 1631 to talk to > the 9121 - I don't know if the drive was bad as I have no other way to > test it. > > Has anyone else gotten you an image of this? if not I can try and figure > out a way to image it. > > - JP No, I don't have gotten something off list jet. I've heard from a friend that another friend that died in the menatime, had managed to copy HP9121 disks on a plain PC with something like Super Copy. The drive was used on some HP Computer that controlled a PCB assembly system from Siemens in his case and that is from where my Drive is coming from. Additionally I've read somewhere that it should be possible to write such disks on Linux with some utils, but I haven't had the time jet to do some experiments myself. I have an FreeBSD Computer with 3,5 and 5,25 inch floppy drives in the same room as the 1631D, maybe I could try this tomorrow. What's the problem with your drive? Set the Drives Address to 2, this is the default and check the peripherals menu again it the drive could be found. I've fiddeled around for some time until I got it going... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 5 13:32:56 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 14:32:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C Message-ID: <20161205193256.5430018C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > look at the lower right line of lights on the panel: ... and three bits > of Major State; now look at the RK11-C prints, connector B32: > ... Postamble, Checksum, Data, Header, Preamble. > ... > One thing I have been wondering about is that "RK11-C" - that implies > that there was a -B, etc. I wonder if this panel goes with one of them? Well, now that I look at a few more things I'm pretty certain the panel in that image goes with some currently-unknown RK11 predecessor to the RK11-C. Note those 5 'state' lines/lights, and then look at the 'Major States' RK11-C print (RK11-C-04, pg. 14 of the PDF version, RK11-C Enginering Drawings Feb1971). In the upper left corner there are a row of 6 flops, each labeled with one of those states (plus one for 'Idle'), arranged in a chain. So one light for the output of each flop... Now look at that display panel: 3 bits for 'Major State' - implying it is binary coded - likely implemented with a counter? Notice also the signal "COUNT MSR" ('Major State Register', I expect) - just what you'd expect to see if the major state had previously been held in a counter, not a string of flops. Why go to all the trouble to synthesize that signal (on the next page, RK11-C-05, "MSR Control") when you cou;d have used the individual composing signals to clock each flop? So my _guess_ is that in the previous version, they'd used a counter, but had had some problems (perhaps it was a binary counter, not Gray code, and the decoding into states was producing glitches), and had therefore switched to the string of flops. (This whole process makes me feel like a paleontologist, reconstructing some unknown dinosaur from a fragment of one bone, using a lot of complex reasoning from small clues contained therein! :-) It would be most interesting to know if there are any signs anywhere of predecessors to the RK11-C. My suspicion is that they were produced in very small numbers - perhaps as prototypes, only internal to DEC. (If they'd had problems with glitches in the major state counter, they would not have wanted to release it as a product.) Or if it was released as a product, perhaps they were all recalled and replaced with RK11-C's because of the issues. As evidence for this, I point to the Spare Module Handbook, which lists only the RK11-C and -D - but _does_ list the KT11-B, a rara avis indeed. (More dinosaur bones... :-) This argues that the predecessor did not exist in the wild... Noel From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Dec 5 13:39:27 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 20:39:27 +0100 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20161205193927.GB40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > I have an HP1631D Logic Analyzer for some years now und got an HP9121 > > dual Floppy drive that fits to it yesterday. > > I've tested the drive, formating disks, storing and reading data ist > > working :-) > > While reading the Users Manual of the LA I've found out that besides of > > storing setup- and configuration data on the disk, there should some > > loadable disassemblers for the HP1631D exist on floppies.. > > > > The Logic Analyzer is very limited from todays point of view but for > > example an Z80 disassembler where nice to have. > > Has someone out here such disassemblers (Z180, 8085, 8080, 6809 etc) > > for the HP1631D? > > I have a 3.5-inch floppy part number 10342-13012 for the 10342B Bus > Preprocessor (HP-IB, RS-232C/V.24, RS-449) for HP1630A/D/G and 1631A/D > logic analyzers. I'll have to create an ImageDisk dump of that floppy. > > I also have a tape somewhere if I can find it that is probably for the > either the 6800/6802 10307B (64672B) or 6809/6809E 10308B (64671A) > preprocessor if I remember correctly. I don't have an 82161A HP-IL > tape drive to try to read and dump that tape. If I find that tape I > should send it to someone with a working 82161A HP-IL tape drive and > the means to dump and archive that tape. Interresting, I've don't even knew that such tape drives existed. I'm interested in software for that thing, but it seems that I can't do much to be helpful here. I'll ask the friend from which I got the disk drive, maybe some tape drive existis additinally? I've read on wikipedia that the Tapes are HP-IL only but converters to HP-IB should exists.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Dec 5 13:42:33 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 20:42:33 +0100 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: <20161205193927.GB40797@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193927.GB40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20161205194233.GC40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Glen Slick wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > > > > > I have an HP1631D Logic Analyzer for some years now und got an HP9121 > > > dual Floppy drive that fits to it yesterday. > > > I've tested the drive, formating disks, storing and reading data ist > > > working :-) > > > While reading the Users Manual of the LA I've found out that besides of > > > storing setup- and configuration data on the disk, there should some > > > loadable disassemblers for the HP1631D exist on floppies.. > > > > > > The Logic Analyzer is very limited from todays point of view but for > > > example an Z80 disassembler where nice to have. > > > Has someone out here such disassemblers (Z180, 8085, 8080, 6809 etc) > > > for the HP1631D? > > > > I have a 3.5-inch floppy part number 10342-13012 for the 10342B Bus > > Preprocessor (HP-IB, RS-232C/V.24, RS-449) for HP1630A/D/G and 1631A/D > > logic analyzers. I'll have to create an ImageDisk dump of that floppy. > > > > I also have a tape somewhere if I can find it that is probably for the > > either the 6800/6802 10307B (64672B) or 6809/6809E 10308B (64671A) > > preprocessor if I remember correctly. I don't have an 82161A HP-IL > > tape drive to try to read and dump that tape. If I find that tape I > > should send it to someone with a working 82161A HP-IL tape drive and > > the means to dump and archive that tape. > > Interresting, I've don't even knew that such tape drives existed. > I'm interested in software for that thing, but it seems that I can't do > much to be helpful here. > I'll ask the friend from which I got the disk drive, maybe some tape > drive existis additinally? I've read on wikipedia that the Tapes are > HP-IL only but converters to HP-IB should exists.. > > Regards, > > Holm ..uh oh.. replied to the wrong post..so I'll append the rest here. I would be very happy if I could get your disks dumps Glen. TIA, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 13:43:59 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 19:43:59 +0000 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: <20161205193927.GB40797@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193927.GB40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 7:39 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Glen Slick wrote: > >> On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Interresting, I've don't even knew that such tape drives existed. It's the little HPIL tape drive that was first used with the HP41 calculator. > I'm interested in software for that thing, but it seems that I can't do > much to be helpful here. > I'll ask the friend from which I got the disk drive, maybe some tape > drive existis additinally? I've read on wikipedia that the Tapes are > HP-IL only but converters to HP-IB should exists.. The HP1630 has HPIL as standard. IIRC you can configure it to either be remote-controlled over HPIB (when it will use HPIL for mass storage devices like this tape drive) or vice versa. But I seem to remember that there were several firmware revisions for these logic analysers and that some feautres were added later. You may need to 'acquire' a dump of the later ROMs... -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 13:45:31 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 11:45:31 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > I've heard from a friend that another friend that died in the menatime, had > managed to copy HP9121 disks on a plain PC with something like Super Copy. I tried using ImageDisk on a PC to read the two HP 1630 3.5-inch floppies I have (10304 8085 preprocessor, 10342 HP-IB, RS-232C/V.24, RS-449 preprocessor). It appeared to be able to read the expected data just fine. Singled sided disk with 16 256-byte sectors per track (sector numbers 0 - 15) and 70 tracks. But it also seemed to detect a sector number 17 with no data in each track. Is that a normal 9121 low level format? I haven't tried to write a floppy back out using ImageDisk to see if the result is readable on a 9121 drive. I should also try hooking up a 9121 drive to a PC and see if HPDir dumps the same binary data I get using ImageDisk. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 13:58:08 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 11:58:08 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193927.GB40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > The HP1630 has HPIL as standard. IIRC you can configure it to either be > remote-controlled over HPIB (when it will use HPIL for mass storage devices > like this tape drive) or vice versa. > > But I seem to remember that there were several firmware revisions for > these logic analysers and that some feautres were added later. You > may need to 'acquire' a dump of the later ROMs... Search for 1630 on http://www.ko4bb.com/ and there is a "HP 1630A D 1631A D Logic Analyzer EPROM 14-Oct-1985-HP 1630A-D 1631A-D ROMs.zip" file with these EPROM images, which is supposed to be the latest version listed in the service manual for the 1630A, 1630D, 1631A, 1631D (but not compatible with the 1630G): 01630-80054 01630-80055 01630-80056 01630-80057 01630-80058 01630-80059 01630-80060 01630-80061 That version should have HP-IB mass storage device support instead of HP-IL. Those are 16KB 27128 EPROM images. As far as I can tell from the service manuals some of the early versions of the 1630 CPU boards had 8KB 2764 EPROMs. I'm not sure if you could simply replace 2764 EPROMs on an early CPU with 27128 EPROMs. I don't know how the 1 of 8 chip enable decoding would work with both 8KB and 16KB parts. Just because I already have more projects than time I am picking up a 1630D out of curiosity. From its serial number it might have an early CPU board. When it arrives I'll have to see if it has 8KB EPROMs and HP-IL vs HP-IB mass storage support and if it can be upgraded to the 16KB EPROM firmware. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 14:10:34 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 12:10:34 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David > > Bridgham > > Sent: 05 December 2016 18:37 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] > > > > On 12/05/2016 12:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > > Or how about architectures not using a word length that's an integral > > > number of bytes? > > > > You mean like any 36-bit machine? > > Honeywell L66 & DPS8 used to have 36 bit words which originally contained 6 > x 6-bit characters. > When they extended the machines to work with ASCII they put 4 x 9-bit > characters which I seem to > remember they called 9-bit bytes.. > > Yes; the Extended Instruction set handles 4*9bit, 6*6bit, 8*4bit (with the 4 padding bits scattered through the word). >From memory: PDP-10: 36 bit word, 5*7bit characters. PDP-15: 18 bit word, but it was so long ago, I don't remember.... CDC 6000: 60 bit word, 10 six bit characters. PDP11 "middle endian" see "NUXI problem: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/M/middle-endian.html PDP11 RADIX-50 3 characters packed into a 16 bit word; each character in a 0:39 set. Back to Der Mouse question re: non-symmetrical mapping.... hton and ntoh are not meant has generalized data conversion; they are intended as network data packet field conversion; the domain of ntohl is a 32bit unsigned integer; the range is a host object larger enough to contain all possible values. For hosts that are base 2 and have word sizes that divide 32bits evenly, the functions would typically be identity or bit rearrangement, and the htonl and ntohl functions would be symmetric -- I suspect that a good mathematician could 'prove' that cycle length is always 2 given the constraints. Cases like 36 bits words mean that htonl is "lossy"; it throws away bits and and ntohl pads the result with 0s -- they are not symmetrical, thus the answer to the order-2 cycle question is 'not applicable' -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 5 14:13:54 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 12:13:54 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <706f7eee-1a85-ffe4-848e-3fdd817faf72@sydex.com> On 12/05/2016 10:37 AM, David Bridgham wrote: > On 12/05/2016 12:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Or how about architectures not using a word length that's an >> integral number of bytes? > > You mean like any 36-bit machine? Or any 12 or 60 bit machine. --Chuck From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Dec 5 14:19:42 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 12:19:42 -0800 Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C In-Reply-To: <20161205193256.5430018C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161205193256.5430018C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <159C57FD-8F5B-4AB5-8F17-DF6BB7F3B9FB@fritzm.org> > On Dec 5, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > (This whole process makes me feel like a paleontologist, reconstructing some > unknown dinosaur from a fragment of one bone, using a lot of complex reasoning > from small clues contained therein! :-) Yeah, I find this sort of thing really fun/interesting... The recent discovery of the KT11-B docs was pretty cool. Also, clues about an 11/20 interface for the FP11-B that were noticed recently. It seems we have a bit of a gap in the historical record around the 11/20 :-) ?FritzM. From mark at markesystems.com Mon Dec 5 13:50:26 2016 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 11:50:26 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 30, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <636D357FB0174D0A9100D63815B0D94F@Daedalus> >> least.. but yeah.. might be impossible to ever really know. I'm just >> wondering why the price jumped to $40+ each all of a sudden! > a very large number of schlock IC sellers all communicate with each > other. They all have a continuous stream of wants or needs that they > exchange. but they make their own prices. The probability is that you > may have hit the original stocking guy with your first query. Querying > any others will result in them looking at the wants that others shared, > or buys, and he saw someone else had it and quoted you the same info. It takes surprisingly little to trigger this effect/behavior. I did a bulk buy of some 1960's era miniature vacuum tubes (500 pcs) for around 50 cents each; the next time I looked, the price from all vendors who had them had jumped to around $3, and it's up to $6 now. (Fortunately the vendor I purchased from originally extended approximately his original pricing to me again.) I think I was - and still am - virtually the only volume buyer of these parts, but the price remains high. I've also had the same experience with other vintage new-old-stock parts. ~~ Mark Moulding From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Dec 5 14:50:46 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 15:50:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201612052050.PAA07773@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Or how about architectures not using a word length that's an >> integral number of bytes? > You mean like any 36-bit machine? No, they usually either ran as 6 6-bit bytes or 4 9-bit bytes, from what I understand. (The era of 36-bit machines was before "byte" had drifted to its current synonymity with "octet".) Byte sex is really an issue of conversion between numbers and their serializations. For example, it does not make sense to speak of the number 2271560481 (0x87654321) having an endianness in its own right; endianness becomes a meaningful concept only when a number is made up of smaller units with some kind of ordering among themselves. Most commonly these are memory-addressing units, with the order being increasing address order, but the terminology can also be used when, for exmaple, discussing serializing bits onto a bit-serial transmission medium, with the order being transmission order (eg, when sending characters over a serial line). To address the comment, I don't know enough about any of the 36-bit machines to know whether they had sub-36-bit-word addressing or any such, which would be necessary for concepts such as endianness to make sense. I think at least one early (by modern standards) machine supported addressing memory as if it were an array of bits, extracting an arbitrary block of those bits not longer than a machine word; if true, that addressing order would induce an endianness.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Dec 5 14:52:45 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 15:52:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <5dc7607a-2bd2-b7e0-08d5-d98111c34daf@froghouse.org> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5dc7607a-2bd2-b7e0-08d5-d98111c34daf@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <201612052052.PAA17801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Middle-endian FTW!!!! >> That makes me wonder: was there any hardware that used an endianness >> such that conversion didn't loop with period 2? > Not quite the same thing but weren't longwords on the PDP-11 > little-endian for the bytes within the word but big-endian for words > within the longword? Yes. As I said in the very next paragraph, > Conversion between PDP11-endian (0x87654321 stored as 0x65 0x87 0x21 > 0x43) and [...] /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lars at nocrew.org Mon Dec 5 15:09:49 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 22:09:49 +0100 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: (Charles Anthony's message of "Mon, 5 Dec 2016 12:10:34 -0800") References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Charles Anthony wrote: > PDP-10: 36 bit word, 5*7bit characters. Mouse wrote: >> You mean like any 36-bit machine? > No, they usually either ran as 6 6-bit bytes or 4 9-bit bytes, from > what I understand. As Charles wrote, the PDP-10 commonly uses 7-bit bytes for ASCII text, but that's only part of the truth. The architecture is quite byte size agnostic. There are instructions to operate on any byte size from 1 to 36 bits, at any position inside a word. (Well, a later extension to the architecture restricted this a bit.) From js at cimmeri.com Mon Dec 5 17:33:18 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 18:33:18 -0500 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <5845F93E.9070502@cimmeri.com> On 12/5/2016 2:31 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> Hey Holm; >> >> I'm _pretty sure_ I have the Z80 disassembler for the 1630. I have a 1630G >> and a 9121, but unfortunately I was never able to get the 1631 to talk to >> the 9121 - I don't know if the drive was bad as I have no other way to >> test it. >> >> Has anyone else gotten you an image of this? if not I can try and figure >> out a way to image it. >> >> - JP > No, I don't have gotten something off list jet. > I've heard from a friend that another friend that died in the menatime, had > managed to copy HP9121 disks on a plain PC with something like Super Copy. > The drive was used on some HP Computer that controlled a PCB assembly > system from Siemens in his case and that is from where my Drive is > coming from. > Additionally I've read somewhere that it should be possible to write > such disks on Linux with some utils, but I haven't had the time jet to do > some experiments myself. > I have an FreeBSD Computer with 3,5 and 5,25 inch floppy drives in the > same room as the 1631D, maybe I could try this tomorrow. > > What's the problem with your drive? Set the Drives Address to 2, this is > the default and check the peripherals menu again it the drive could be > found. I've fiddeled around for some time until I got it going... > > Regards, > > Holm Aren't these 1630D diskettes in HP's LIF format? There are LIF utilities for the PC to read / write diskettes for the 9121. I've done it and have all the hardware and software in working order -- just not readily available for awhile. Like you, Holm, I've a 1630D as well as 1630G I'd love to find these disassemblers for. Would be useful to collect as many as can be found and put on Bitsavers. - J. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Dec 5 17:35:58 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 18:35:58 -0500 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4914a6b0-b514-a31c-0eab-6836382fe6fd@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-05-02 9:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Pete Lancashire > > > Do you or someone have a list of all the Unibus bus chips ? > > I have seen the following bus interface chips used on DEC UNIBUS boards: > > Drivers: > > 8881 - Sprague, Signetics - Quad NAND > > Receivers: > > 380 - Signetics - Quad NOR > 314 - Signetics - 7-input NOR > 8815 - Signetics - 4-input NOR > 8837 - National Semi - Hex receiver (aka Signetics N8T37) > 8640 - National Semi - Quad NOR > > Transceivers: > > 8641 - National Semi - Quad transceiver > > The actal complete part number can vary depending on the manufacturer; e.g. > the 8641's are usually DS8641N, from NatSemi, and the 380's are usually > SP380A's or SP380N's. Where the basic number is not included (as with the > 8T37 for the 8837) I have given it. > > The following chips have been used by DEC to interface to the QBUS, and > I have seen many of the above chips (e.g. 8641's) used there too, so I > think chips seen on one bus could be used on the other: > > Drivers: > > 7439 - Various - Quad NAND > > Transceivers: > > 2908 - AMD - Quad latching transceiver with tri-state output > > I _believe_ the following chips are also usable as UNIBUS/QBUS interface > chips, but I'm not sure if I've seen one used there: > > Transceivers: > > 8836 - National Semi - Quad NOR > 8838 - National Semi - Quad transceiver (aka Signetics N8T38) > > Quite a zoo! > > Noel > Has anyone looked at the TI Signal Switch family for QBus? (hat tip Ian Finder) http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/three-new-bus-switch-families-from-texas-instruments-enhance-performance-of-datacom-and-networking-equipment-and-optimize-next-generation-portable-computing-and-communications-designs-70812102.html --Toby From js at cimmeri.com Mon Dec 5 17:36:25 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 18:36:25 -0500 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <5845F9F9.4010807@cimmeri.com> On 12/5/2016 2:45 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> I've heard from a friend that another friend that died in the menatime, had >> managed to copy HP9121 disks on a plain PC with something like Super Copy. > > I tried using ImageDisk on a PC to read the two HP 1630 3.5-inch > floppies I have (10304 8085 preprocessor, 10342 HP-IB, RS-232C/V.24, > RS-449 preprocessor). It appeared to be able to read the expected data > just fine. Singled sided disk with 16 256-byte sectors per track > (sector numbers 0 - 15) and 70 tracks. > > But it also seemed to detect a sector number 17 with no data in each > track. Is that a normal 9121 low level format? I haven't tried to > write a floppy back out using ImageDisk to see if the result is > readable on a 9121 drive. > > I should also try hooking up a 9121 drive to a PC and see if HPDir > dumps the same binary data I get using ImageDisk. Here are my notes on LIF disks and the utils I have. I got this from somewhere, but can't remember where, so can't give the well-deserved credit to the rightful person -- I'm sorry. There have been different tools provided for handling LIF discs: 1. Still quite useful are the "LIF Utilities for DOS" from HP. The LIF utilities support the handling of LIF floppy discs in standard PC floppy disc drives and drives connected via HP-IB similar to the HPDir program. A DOS-based graphical user interface covers functions like initializing LIF discs, copying files from DOS to LIF and vice versa, purging files as well as editing LIF discs with a hex editor. The LIF Utilities work under DOS and Windows 9x, but not under NT based Windows like XP or Vista. The HP-IB operation is restricted to HP's own HP-IB interface cards (namely the HP82335A, the HP82990A and the HP88500A interfaces) and can communicate only with drives supporting the CS80/SS80 command sets (not Amigo). 2. Another LIF tool is HP's Standard Data Format (SDF) Utilities. Although originally intended for the exchange of data with HP analyzer instruments, there are two programs included (LIF.EXE and LIFDIAG.EXE) for LIF access, file conversion and diagnostics. Just like the LIF Utilities those programs allow initializing LIF discs as well as file copying, deletion, conversion and listing both using standard floppy disc drives and drives connected via HP-IB. The SDF utils support SS80 drives *only* [sic jws] but not AMIGO command set. However, these programs support the PCII and AT-GPIB IEEE488/GPIB cards from National Instruments in addition to the HP88500A and HP82335 interfaces. 3. Finally, there is still a basic support for LIF under HP-UX. For a certain period, the LIF format was used as bootstrap format (an initial execution vector was added in the system record for this purpose). See HPDir. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 18:50:50 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 17:50:50 -0700 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193927.GB40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > The HP1630 has HPIL as standard. IIRC you can configure it to either be > remote-controlled over HPIB (when it will use HPIL for mass storage devices > like this tape drive) or vice versa. > > But I seem to remember that there were several firmware revisions for > these logic analysers and that some feautres were added later. You > may need to 'acquire' a dump of the later ROMs... > IIRC from many years ago, different versions of the 163x firmware support the 82161A tape drive, the 9114A floppy drive, and remote control. I don't think there's any version that supports both tape and floppy. I'm not sure what version(s) support remote control. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 18:52:50 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 17:52:50 -0700 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 12:45 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > But it also seemed to detect a sector number 17 with no data in each > track. Is that a normal 9121 low level format? > It's normal for the HP 3 1/2" floppies to have an extra sector, which is used for wear tracking, but I don't know about "no data". From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 18:55:14 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 17:55:14 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: <4914a6b0-b514-a31c-0eab-6836382fe6fd@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4914a6b0-b514-a31c-0eab-6836382fe6fd@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 4:35 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Has anyone looked at the TI Signal Switch family for QBus? (hat tip Ian > Finder) > I use those for interfacing 5V TTL-compatible stuff to 3.3V logic. It doesn't really solve the major Qbus problems. In particular, it doesn't help with either the receiver threshold or the drive requirements. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 19:17:22 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 17:17:22 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193927.GB40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > IIRC from many years ago, different versions of the 163x firmware support > the 82161A tape drive, the 9114A floppy drive, and remote control. I don't > think there's any version that supports both tape and floppy. I'm not sure > what version(s) support remote control. http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5958-3780.pdf Title & Document Type: 10330A/10331A Upgrade Kits Installation Instructions Manual Part Number: 5958-3780 Revision Date: May 1985 Model conversion table Note (1) 1630A/D shipped before February 1, 1985 uses an HP-IL cassette drive for mass storage. 1630A/D shipped after February 1, 1985 uses an HP-IB disc drive for mass storage. Note (2) regarding Tape ROM Set This ROM Set consists of the following parts: 01630-80008 01630-80009 01630-80010 01630-80011 01630-80012 01630-80013 01630-80014 01630-80015 From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 19:21:03 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 18:21:03 -0700 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193927.GB40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Model conversion table > Note (1) > 1630A/D shipped before February 1, 1985 uses an HP-IL cassette drive > for mass storage. > 1630A/D shipped after February 1, 1985 uses an HP-IB disc drive for > mass storage. > Ah, that was it. I must have been mistaken about 9114 support, though possibly the cassette version might work with the 9114, since the 9114 supports a superset of the 82161A commands. I can't recall now whether the later firmware supported Amigo (e.g., 9121), SS/80 (e.g. 9122), or both. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 5 20:14:35 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 18:14:35 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> On 12/05/2016 01:09 PM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > As Charles wrote, the PDP-10 commonly uses 7-bit bytes for ASCII > text, but that's only part of the truth. The architecture is quite > byte size agnostic. There are instructions to operate on any byte > size from 1 to 36 bits, at any position inside a word. (Well, a > later extension to the architecture restricted this a bit.) I've seen PDP-10 9-track tapes done two ways--one character per frame and then 4 frames (36 bits) with 5 7-bit characters and the sign bit left over. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 20:36:34 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 18:36:34 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193927.GB40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: > > Search for 1630 on http://www.ko4bb.com/ and there is a "HP 1630A D > 1631A D Logic Analyzer EPROM 14-Oct-1985-HP 1630A-D 1631A-D ROMs.zip" > file with these EPROM images, which is supposed to be the latest > version listed in the service manual for the 1630A, 1630D, 1631A, > 1631D (but not compatible with the 1630G): > > 01630-80054 > 01630-80055 > 01630-80056 > 01630-80057 > 01630-80058 > 01630-80059 > 01630-80060 > 01630-80061 > > That version should have HP-IB mass storage device support instead of > HP-IL. Those are 16KB 27128 EPROM images. As far as I can tell from > the service manuals some of the early versions of the 1630 CPU boards > had 8KB 2764 EPROMs. I'm not sure if you could simply replace 2764 > EPROMs on an early CPU with 27128 EPROMs. I don't know how the 1 of 8 > chip enable decoding would work with both 8KB and 16KB parts. > To answer my own question about 2764 vs. 27128 EPROM support on the CPU board, the schematics in the service manuals on Bitsavers are much more readable than in the scan of the service manual I downloaded from the HP / Agilent / Keysight website. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/te/163x/01630-90910_1630A_D_G_Logic_Analyzer_Service_Manual_Jun84.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/te/163x/01630-90917_1630_Service_Apr88.pdf Schematic sheet 8B-3 shows that address lines HPA0 - HPA12 go to address lines A0 - A12 of each EPROM in parallel, which allows for 8KB for each EPROM, then address lines HPA13 - HPA15 go to the demultiplexer to enable 1 of 8 EPROMs, then HPA16 goes to A13 of each EPROM in parallel. Inside 2764 EPROMs the HPA16 connection to A13 in the EPROM is a N/C. With 27128 EPROMs that would allow a second bank of 64KB address space to be mapped across the top half of the eight 16KB EPROMs. So from the schematic it appears that if a 1630 CPU board has 2764 EPROMs it should be possible to swap those out for the final 27128 EPROM version and the address decoding should just work. I'll find out if that is actually true when I receive a 1630D later this week. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 5 20:40:33 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 21:40:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C Message-ID: <20161206024033.B896918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > Also, clues about an 11/20 interface for the FP11-B that were noticed > recently. I don't recall this; more details, if possible? Thanks! Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 20:43:48 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 18:43:48 -0800 Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C In-Reply-To: <20161206024033.B896918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161206024033.B896918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:40 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Fritz Mueller > > > Also, clues about an 11/20 interface for the FP11-B that were noticed > > recently. > > I don't recall this; more details, if possible? Thanks! > > Noel You should also hang out at vcfed forum in addition to hanging out here. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55131-FP11-B-what-is-signal-FICC-EXT-ADD-L From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 5 20:49:17 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 20:49:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: Searching for a lost Macintosh TV (Texas) Message-ID: I'm not really active in any of the classic computing communities apart from classiccmp, so I would appreciate it if others could pass this message around and see if this computer ended up in the hands of a fellow collector. A good friend of mine who lived in Spring, TX (north of Houston) owned a black Macintosh TV (1993 vintage). During a move many years ago (late 2010), it mistakenly ended up turned in as ewaste. I only found out late this year (2016) that this had happened. Given how rare/uncommon these machines are, chances are very high that it ended up resold on eBay or similar instead of being scrapped. I have no records of the serial number of the machine, but according to my archives, I installed Mac OS 7.6.1 on it on May 5, 1998. It was also upgraded with an 8MB SIMM but still had the factory hard drive. If by some chance a fellow collector ended up with it, and if it still has its hard drive and files intact, my friend would really like to obtain a copy of her files (a disk image of the hard drive would be ideal). I happened to still have a backup of the machine on a zip disk from May 24, 1998, but she had continued to use the machine off and on for many years after that. I would also just like to know that the machine didn't end up scrapped. From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 21:18:43 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 19:18:43 -0800 Subject: Searching for a lost Macintosh TV (Texas) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They sold 10,000 Apple TVs. That's a lot. You lost track of one ten years ago, and have given no real methodology for discerning it from any other- the number out there with OS 7.6 or 8mb of ram will be significant. Perhaps you should go door-to-door, or hang flyers. It would probably yield better results. On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:49 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > I'm not really active in any of the classic computing communities apart > from classiccmp, so I would appreciate it if others could pass this message > around and see if this computer ended up in the hands of a fellow collector. > > A good friend of mine who lived in Spring, TX (north of Houston) owned a > black Macintosh TV (1993 vintage). During a move many years ago (late > 2010), it mistakenly ended up turned in as ewaste. I only found out late > this year (2016) that this had happened. > > Given how rare/uncommon these machines are, chances are very high that it > ended up resold on eBay or similar instead of being scrapped. I have no > records of the serial number of the machine, but according to my archives, > I installed Mac OS 7.6.1 on it on May 5, 1998. It was also upgraded with an > 8MB SIMM but still had the factory hard drive. > > If by some chance a fellow collector ended up with it, and if it still has > its hard drive and files intact, my friend would really like to obtain a > copy of her files (a disk image of the hard drive would be ideal). I > happened to still have a backup of the machine on a zip disk from May 24, > 1998, but she had continued to use the machine off and on for many years > after that. I would also just like to know that the machine didn't end up > scrapped. > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 5 21:19:32 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 21:19:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: Black anti-static foam corrosion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 3 Dec 2016, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Interesting find, thanks for posting this. I've seen this as well. with >> a batch of old ICs which had been stored (in black foam) for some 20-30 >> years. The leads kind of just stayed behind in the foam.. My assumption >> was that the foam was simply hygroscopic, and held enough atmospheric >> moisture & pollutants to foster corrosion. > > There are numerous black foam formulations. > > I inherited some lenses (including a Leitz Tele-Elmarit 180mm (<250 > made)) that had been stored for a few decades in an essentially airtight > case with black foam. When I first opened the case, it seemed as though > there was liquid in the case, with an intense vinegar? smell. Second > time that I opened the case, a few hours later, it was dry and crumbly, > and the outer painted surfaces of the lenses were badly pitted and had > to scrape bits of the foam off, but NOT at all like water damage. It > turned that lens from mint condition and a major rarity, into usable but > POOR cosmetic condition (a loss of more than a thousand dollars in > value!). (Three other cases had simply disappeared between the time my > buddy died and the time that the county let us go through the house.) Something similar happened with a Nikon FT2, Nikon EM, and some lenses after a local friend of mine passed away in 2001. The same also happened with his HAM radio gear, which I was supposed to get. For much of the radio gear, I could likely come up with the model/serial numbers too. (We know who took the HAM radio gear, but couldn't really do much about it.) http://strudel.ignorelist .com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/stolen_nikon_camera_gear.txt From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 5 21:29:54 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 21:29:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Searching for a lost Macintosh TV (Texas) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Dec 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > They sold 10,000 Apple TVs. That's a lot. > > You lost track of one ten years ago, and have given no real methodology > for discerning it from any other- the number out there with OS 7.6 or > 8mb of ram will be significant. > > Perhaps you should go door-to-door, or hang flyers. It would probably > yield better results. [Sorry Jay, but I'm going to do this on-list.] Wow, Ian, you sure are helpful! Would you be willing to help me print up and distribute those fliers? :) From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 21:34:11 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 19:34:11 -0800 Subject: Troubleshooting spooky & intermittent instability after power-up: Symbolics XL1200 Message-ID: Hi folks, I know this is a long shot but... I'm having a rather curious issue with one of my Symbolics XL 1200 CPUs, which I suspect may have a far more general cause. I have narrowed the issue down to the specific Merlin II CPU card I'm running- not the RAM, Jumper, I/O, backplane, power supply or any of that good stuff. My friend Doug has a rather pretty picture of the board in question on his site: https://symbolics.lisp.engineer/koken/albums/merlin-ii/content/img-4316/lightbox/ It's basically a big wedge of PGA ASIC encapsulations and PALs, for those unfamiliar. The symptom is this. After a cold boot- a fresh power-up from no power applied- the system will hang after 30-40 seconds into the startup with a hard lock and sometimes memory bus issues. If I wait 10 more seconds or so, and hit reset, the system usually comes up fine for hours. If I hold the system in reset for a few minutes during the cold boot before proceeding, the system works fine. The repro rate is close to 100%. If the machine is off for a few minutes, then cold booted, the issue repros. It sounds as if something has gone thermally sensitive in a very deterministic manner. Can that happen with the tantalum caps on the board? Perhaps they are shorting intermittently for the first few dozen seconds? Again, the rest of the system is good- the issue follows this board and only this board no matter which chassis it runs in. All socketed ICs have been reseated. I know this isn't much to go off of, but anyone out there have experience with spooky "intermittent" yet 100% repro-able cold-power-up issues? I'll debug further of course, but thought I'd ask here. Thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 21:49:09 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 19:49:09 -0800 Subject: Searching for a lost Macintosh TV (Texas) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Props for for having a good sense of humor. It made me laugh. Seriously though I hate to say it but your quest feels pretty damn futile. I wish you luck either way, and would offer you my MacTV but it is long gone. If you can provide names of unique files or something that was on the drive- identifiable but not sensitive- it might help you. Like I said, there's nothing to key off of in your original post. I've hunted far rarer specific systems- smbx machines and the like that went missing from universities with good inventory control only one or two years ago- and had zero luck. Also do try Low End Mac and 68kmla, this is more relevant to those audiences. Cheers, - I On Monday, December 5, 2016, Tothwolf > wrote: > On Mon, 5 Dec 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > > They sold 10,000 Apple TVs. That's a lot. >> >> You lost track of one ten years ago, and have given no real methodology >> for discerning it from any other- the number out there with OS 7.6 or 8mb >> of ram will be significant. >> >> Perhaps you should go door-to-door, or hang flyers. It would probably >> yield better results. >> > > [Sorry Jay, but I'm going to do this on-list.] > > Wow, Ian, you sure are helpful! Would you be willing to help me print up > and distribute those fliers? > > > > :) > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 5 23:03:05 2016 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 23:03:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Searching for a lost Macintosh TV (Texas) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Dec 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > Props for for having a good sense of humor. It made me laugh. > > Seriously though I hate to say it but your quest feels pretty damn > futile. > > I wish you luck either way, and would offer you my MacTV but it is long > gone. > > If you can provide names of unique files or something that was on the > drive- identifiable but not sensitive- it might help you. Like I said, > there's nothing to key off of in your original post. > > I've hunted far rarer specific systems- smbx machines and the like that > went missing from universities with good inventory control only one or > two years ago- and had zero luck. > > Also do try Low End Mac and 68kmla, this is more relevant to those > audiences. I'm not really looking to find a MacTV for myself, I have other Macs in storage which are much more useful machines. Its a novel machine, sure, but just not terribly useful. I do have very detailed information of what was on the computer (I have that full system backup from May 24, 1998), but I do not want to post any of that publicly. Given how few Macintosh TVs still exist, with the timeframe I mentioned in my initial post (I was told late 2010), if a MacTV sold in that part of Texas to a collector, the chance it might be that very computer is certainly greater than zero. The odds are certainly much better than they would be for a much more common Mac or random PC. Of course even if it did turn up, the hard drive or files might be long gone. If I didn't at least post something about it though, the chance it might turn up with an intact hard drive would be zero ;) From cruff at ruffspot.net Mon Dec 5 12:20:58 2016 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 11:20:58 -0700 Subject: HP 9872 Refurbishment Message-ID: <09312703-064B-483B-BE6B-9179EFCEA862@ruffspot.net> I hauled out my second 9872C today to clean it of rodent leavings and to scavenge the high voltage chart hold power supply board for my first 9872C. The table has some gouges in the surface, which appears to be a plastic film adhered to the table surface. Does anyone have experience repairing gouges, or found a suitable replacement film? Also, since I have it apart, I thought it might be good to image the firmware ROM set. They are marked Mostek MK36647N-5 and MK36648N-5, along with the HP part numbers. From the schematic, they appear to be 5V 8KB ROMs, so nothing fancy should be required to read the contents. It appears these might be MK36000N-5 mask programmed ROMs? P.S. It appears list submission doesn?t like digitally signed emails. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 18:57:31 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 17:57:31 -0700 Subject: HP 9872 Refurbishment In-Reply-To: <09312703-064B-483B-BE6B-9179EFCEA862@ruffspot.net> References: <09312703-064B-483B-BE6B-9179EFCEA862@ruffspot.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Craig Ruff wrote: > Also, since I have it apart, I thought it might be good to image the > firmware ROM set. They are marked Mostek MK36647N-5 and MK36648N-5, along > with the HP part numbers. From the schematic, they appear to be 5V 8KB > ROMs, so nothing fancy should be required to read the contents. It appears > these might be MK36000N-5 mask programmed ROMs? > Yes. And same for the 9872T. The 9872A uses HP ROMs that aren't compatible with anything else. I'm not sure about the 9872B and 9872S. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Dec 5 19:53:46 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 20:53:46 -0500 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: <4914a6b0-b514-a31c-0eab-6836382fe6fd@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4914a6b0-b514-a31c-0eab-6836382fe6fd@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 12/05/2016 06:35 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-05-02 9:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Pete Lancashire >> >> > Do you or someone have a list of all the Unibus bus chips ? >> >> I have seen the following bus interface chips used on DEC UNIBUS boards: >> >> Drivers: >> >> 8881 - Sprague, Signetics - Quad NAND >> >> Receivers: >> >> 380 - Signetics - Quad NOR >> 314 - Signetics - 7-input NOR >> 8815 - Signetics - 4-input NOR >> 8837 - National Semi - Hex receiver (aka Signetics N8T37) >> 8640 - National Semi - Quad NOR >> >> Transceivers: >> >> 8641 - National Semi - Quad transceiver >> >> The actal complete part number can vary depending on the >> manufacturer; e.g. >> the 8641's are usually DS8641N, from NatSemi, and the 380's are usually >> SP380A's or SP380N's. Where the basic number is not included (as with >> the >> 8T37 for the 8837) I have given it. >> >> The following chips have been used by DEC to interface to the QBUS, and >> I have seen many of the above chips (e.g. 8641's) used there too, so I >> think chips seen on one bus could be used on the other: >> >> Drivers: >> >> 7439 - Various - Quad NAND >> >> Transceivers: >> >> 2908 - AMD - Quad latching transceiver with tri-state output >> >> I _believe_ the following chips are also usable as UNIBUS/QBUS interface >> chips, but I'm not sure if I've seen one used there: >> >> Transceivers: >> >> 8836 - National Semi - Quad NOR >> 8838 - National Semi - Quad transceiver (aka Signetics N8T38) >> >> Quite a zoo! >> >> Noel >> > > Also 74LS240, 7438, DM8130, dm8838, and Andromeda (the guys that use the AM29x305) liked the AM2908. > Has anyone looked at the TI Signal Switch family for QBus? (hat tip > Ian Finder) > > http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/three-new-bus-switch-families-from-texas-instruments-enhance-performance-of-datacom-and-networking-equipment-and-optimize-next-generation-portable-computing-and-communications-designs-70812102.html > > Not the best animal as the are CMOS. A bunch of us old digits (former dec engineers) got together and were talking about old systems and the thing that stood out is a general dislike for having to use the limited set of bus interface chips when there were newer parts. It was a internal mandate not something that was better than could be had. The logic was the parts were known, the vendors vetted for quality and reliability and when you use hundreds of thousands to millions of a part like bus interface and ram quality is a critical thing. Were they special, a flat no. But next time you look at an LSI-11/2 dual width processor card look at the line of caps that are on the bus, they are there to tame the ringing. Allison > --Toby > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Dec 6 00:25:48 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 22:25:48 -0800 Subject: Searching for a lost Macintosh TV (Texas) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/5/2016 6:49 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > I would also just like to know that the machine didn't end up scrapped. You might look up John Keys in the Houston area for other collectors around there. He may still listen on the list. Not sure if he is active, but he had a lot of connections there. There were a couple of list members who replied when I asked for Austin Tx places to visit that might help you as well since Austin is close enough to Houston that the airport out of Houston is considered a long run alternative (so I was told), so they may know. The collectors and E-waste folks in Austin as it exists now I'd put a low chance of it being saved by someone that will see this. So maybe hit all the craigslists with your information and offer a small reward, post photos, etc. There is no charge, and Austin, San Antonio, Houston and Dallas, Ft. Worth would be worth hitting. Good Luck with it. thanks jim From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 00:34:09 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 23:34:09 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4914a6b0-b514-a31c-0eab-6836382fe6fd@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:53 PM, allison wrote: > A bunch of us old digits (former dec engineers) got together and were > talking > about old systems and the thing that stood out is a general dislike for > having > to use the limited set of bus interface chips when there were newer > parts. It > was a internal mandate not something that was better than could be had. > The > logic was the parts were known, the vendors vetted for quality and > reliability > and when you use hundreds of thousands to millions of a part like bus > interface > and ram quality is a critical thing. Were they special, a flat no. > I don't fully agree. The receivers (and transceivers) had a threshold voltage that is not available with modern parts, and that actually was important for large systems with multiple bus segments. That was particularly important for large Unibus systems, but even Qbus with only two bus segments can get finicky when heavily loaded. DEC could easily have made custom interface ICs if they had needed them. AFAIK, *no* current production interface ICs have the right threshold. It's hard to meet the spec without using either NOS parts or comparators. It would certainly be possible to build a functionally equivalent bus with modern interface ICs, and it might have significantly better performance, but it wouldn't be compatible with the legacy systems. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 6 04:02:30 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:02:30 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Dec 2016, Glen Slick wrote: > I tried using ImageDisk on a PC to read the two HP 1630 3.5-inch > floppies I have (10304 8085 preprocessor, 10342 HP-IB, RS-232C/V.24, > RS-449 preprocessor). It appeared to be able to read the expected data > just fine. Singled sided disk with 16 256-byte sectors per track > (sector numbers 0 - 15) and 70 tracks. > > But it also seemed to detect a sector number 17 with no data in each > track. Is that a normal 9121 low level format? I haven't tried to > write a floppy back out using ImageDisk to see if the result is > readable on a 9121 drive. Funny that you mention that. I just came across that anomaly yesterday when I tried to create some disks for the HP150 with 9121 drive; the images are from the hpmuseum site and are in TeleDisk format. I had a lot of trouble writing the images back. I wanted to use ImageDisk instead and tried the TD02IMD tool, but it failed miserably with the error "Cannot do mixed sector size within track", even with the option M=15 that should truncate every track after sector number 15. I found out that a disk formatted in the 9121 has 16 normal sectors (numbered from 0 to 15) with 256 bytes each (size code 1), and one extra sector numbered 17 (there's no sector 16) with size code 5. The solution to TD02IMD was to move the call of remove_sectors() *before* the three issame() calls. remove_sectors() is responsible to remove the unwanted sectors greater that 15 with option M=15. With that bugfix TD02IMD produces a correct IMD file that can be written back without problems, and the 9121 drive is very happy with that floppy :-) Christian From AppleCorey at optonline.net Tue Dec 6 06:26:53 2016 From: AppleCorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 07:26:53 -0500 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: <7fcd973f-6f5f-ff03-863d-09583c8a6cf7@jwsss.com> References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> <056301d24e86$547b0be0$fd7123a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7fcd973f-6f5f-ff03-863d-09583c8a6cf7@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I do notice these "schlock" IC sellers actually raise the price the more "hits" they get on an item. So your shopping around will actually make the price worse and my even cause your earlier vendors to raise their price when you finally do place an order. corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Dec 4, 2016, at 9:00 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > >> On 12/4/2016 3:29 PM, Brad H wrote: >> The supplier (a different one from the one I first used) that quoted me on >> C1101A for the second round sent me a picture.. exact same 'lot' or 'job' >> number as the ones I have. So perhaps even that may not be meaningful? >> What are the odds I'd hit the exact same dates from two different suppliers? >> >> I'm thinking it's*fairly* safe to assume white ceramic is pre-76, at >> least.. but yeah.. might be impossible to ever really know. I'm just >> wondering why the price jumped to $40+ each all of a sudden! > Brad, > a very large number of schlock IC sellers all communicate with each other. They all have a continuous stream of wants or needs that they exchange. but they make their own prices. The probability is that you may have hit the original stocking guy with your first query. Querying any others will result in them looking at the wants that others shared, or buys, and he saw someone else had it and quoted you the same info. > > I know this happens as I know two guys who trade in all manner of stock all the time like this and have for 35 to 40 years. > > thanks > Jim From AppleCorey at optonline.net Tue Dec 6 06:26:53 2016 From: AppleCorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 07:26:53 -0500 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: <7fcd973f-6f5f-ff03-863d-09583c8a6cf7@jwsss.com> References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> <056301d24e86$547b0be0$fd7123a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7fcd973f-6f5f-ff03-863d-09583c8a6cf7@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I do notice these "schlock" IC sellers actually raise the price the more "hits" they get on an item. So your shopping around will actually make the price worse and my even cause your earlier vendors to raise their price when you finally do place an order. corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Dec 4, 2016, at 9:00 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > >> On 12/4/2016 3:29 PM, Brad H wrote: >> The supplier (a different one from the one I first used) that quoted me on >> C1101A for the second round sent me a picture.. exact same 'lot' or 'job' >> number as the ones I have. So perhaps even that may not be meaningful? >> What are the odds I'd hit the exact same dates from two different suppliers? >> >> I'm thinking it's*fairly* safe to assume white ceramic is pre-76, at >> least.. but yeah.. might be impossible to ever really know. I'm just >> wondering why the price jumped to $40+ each all of a sudden! > Brad, > a very large number of schlock IC sellers all communicate with each other. They all have a continuous stream of wants or needs that they exchange. but they make their own prices. The probability is that you may have hit the original stocking guy with your first query. Querying any others will result in them looking at the wants that others shared, or buys, and he saw someone else had it and quoted you the same info. > > I know this happens as I know two guys who trade in all manner of stock all the time like this and have for 35 to 40 years. > > thanks > Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 6 08:28:39 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 06:28:39 -0800 Subject: Is there a magic word to format a 8" Altos hard disk? Message-ID: Picked up an Altos 8600 that I bought on eBay yesterday, amazingly the Xenix actually came up, but the drive failed as I was tarring off the file system. I had another Quantum 2040, put it in, tried to run the formatter, but it says to call Altos, asks for a confirmation but just returns to the menu if you type 'y' 'Y' or 'Yes' so I'm assuming there is a magic word you have to enter. This is the same controller that the Z80 system uses (8000-14) so I'm guessing someone must have run into this before. I'm going to paw through the diagnostic binary to see if there is something that looks magical. Sound familiar? From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 08:40:22 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 09:40:22 -0500 Subject: Is there a magic word to format a 8" Altos hard disk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Picked up an Altos 8600 that I bought on eBay yesterday, amazingly the > Xenix actually > came up, but the drive failed as I was tarring off the file system. I had > another Quantum > 2040, put it in, tried to run the formatter, but it says to call Altos, > asks for a confirmation > but just returns to the menu if you type 'y' 'Y' or 'Yes' so I'm assuming > there is a magic > word you have to enter. > > This is the same controller that the Z80 system uses (8000-14) so I'm > guessing someone must > have run into this before. I'm going to paw through the diagnostic binary > to see if there is > something that looks magical. > > Sound familiar? > > When you run the hard drive format command and you're asked "Do you want to continue?" rather than say "Y" enter "sotla" This is the secret response you need to bypass the format block. Bill From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 6 08:50:19 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 06:50:19 -0800 Subject: Is there a magic word to format a 8" Altos hard disk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94e33437-0b7f-ff0c-a47d-20fcb205a6a0@bitsavers.org> On 12/6/16 6:40 AM, william degnan wrote: >> Sound familiar? >> >> > When you run the hard drive format command and you're asked "Do you want to > continue?" rather than say "Y" enter "sotla" This is the secret response > you need to bypass the format block. > > Bill > That was it. The list is an amazing thing. The new drive isn't correctly formatting, so at least i can experiment now to see what's going on w/o risking the disk with the OS on it. Sure would be nice if Dave's emulator worked with 8" drives ;-) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Dec 6 09:05:44 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 10:05:44 -0500 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4914a6b0-b514-a31c-0eab-6836382fe6fd@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <26db32d0-3b1c-1733-3649-215658a54289@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-12-06 1:34 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:53 PM, allison wrote: > >> A bunch of us old digits (former dec engineers) got together and were >> talking >> about old systems and the thing that stood out is a general dislike for >> having >> to use the limited set of bus interface chips when there were newer >> parts. It >> was a internal mandate not something that was better than could be had. >> The >> logic was the parts were known, the vendors vetted for quality and >> reliability >> and when you use hundreds of thousands to millions of a part like bus >> interface >> and ram quality is a critical thing. Were they special, a flat no. >> > > I don't fully agree. The receivers (and transceivers) had a threshold > voltage that is not available with modern parts, and that actually was I'm an electronics noob, but do you mean a threshold of 1.5V, as with DS8641? I'm referring to this part of October's thread: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-October/028871.html --Toby > important for large systems with multiple bus segments. That was > particularly important for large Unibus systems, but even Qbus with only > two bus segments can get finicky when heavily loaded. > > DEC could easily have made custom interface ICs if they had needed them. > > AFAIK, *no* current production interface ICs have the right threshold. It's > hard to meet the spec without using either NOS parts or comparators. > > It would certainly be possible to build a functionally equivalent bus with > modern interface ICs, and it might have significantly better performance, > but it wouldn't be compatible with the legacy systems. > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 6 09:14:18 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 10:14:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: FP11-C Engineering Drawings? Message-ID: <20161206151418.CE53D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Is there a set of FP11-C Engineering Drawings online anywhere? Our favourite search engine didn't turn one up, and according to Manx: http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9306 there are none online. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 6 09:23:08 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 07:23:08 -0800 Subject: FP11-C Engineering Drawings? In-Reply-To: <20161206151418.CE53D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161206151418.CE53D18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: i'll see about getting CHM's set scanned On 12/6/16 7:14 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Is there a set of FP11-C Engineering Drawings online anywhere? Our favourite > search engine didn't turn one up, and according to Manx: > > http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9306 > > there are none online. > > Noel > From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 09:48:19 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 07:48:19 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:02 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 5 Dec 2016, Glen Slick wrote: >> >> I tried using ImageDisk on a PC to read the two HP 1630 3.5-inch >> floppies I have (10304 8085 preprocessor, 10342 HP-IB, RS-232C/V.24, >> RS-449 preprocessor). It appeared to be able to read the expected data >> just fine. Singled sided disk with 16 256-byte sectors per track >> (sector numbers 0 - 15) and 70 tracks. >> >> But it also seemed to detect a sector number 17 with no data in each >> track. Is that a normal 9121 low level format? I haven't tried to >> write a floppy back out using ImageDisk to see if the result is >> readable on a 9121 drive. > > > Funny that you mention that. I just came across that anomaly yesterday when > I tried to create some disks for the HP150 with 9121 drive; the images are > from the hpmuseum site and are in TeleDisk format. > I had a lot of trouble writing the images back. I wanted to use ImageDisk > instead and tried the TD02IMD tool, but it failed miserably with the error > "Cannot do mixed sector size within track", even with the option M=15 that > should truncate every track after sector number 15. > I found out that a disk formatted in the 9121 has 16 normal sectors > (numbered from 0 to 15) with 256 bytes each (size code 1), and one extra > sector numbered 17 (there's no sector 16) with size code 5. > The solution to TD02IMD was to move the call of remove_sectors() *before* > the three issame() calls. remove_sectors() is responsible to remove the > unwanted sectors greater that 15 with option M=15. With that bugfix TD02IMD > produces a correct IMD file that can be written back without problems, and > the 9121 drive is very happy with that floppy :-) > > Christian That reminded me I ran into this problem 4 years ago and sent this email to Dave at the time about it. I ended up rebuilding my own version from the IMD118 source code to fix the problem. ---------- Dave, I have some questions/suggestions about TD02IMD.COM In the main routine would it make sense to move the remove_sectors() call prior to where it does the mixed sector size check? For example, if the tracks of a disk contain 16 normal and same sized sectors and there is a 17th garbage sector in the Teledisk image with a different sector size, would it make sense to be able to use the M= command line option to filter out and remove sectors that cause image conversion failure? // Read each sector, buffer & build maps for(s=0; s < Thead.Tsectors; ++s) process_sector(); if(!issame(Smap, Size = Smap[0], Stop)) // 765 cannot do mixed sector sizes error("Cannot do mixed sector size within track"); if(!issame(Cmap, Cylinder, Stop)) // Cylinder map required Head |= 0x80; if(!issame(Hmap, Head & 0x0F, Stop)) // Head map required Head |= 0x40; // Remove sectors as requested remove_sectors(); Also, would it be reasonable to add command line options for selecting a single side of a Teledisk image, and also to limit the maximum track number? My motivation for asking these questions comes from trying to convert some HP-85/86/87 TeleDisk disk images which do appear to have the garbage sector issue I mentioned above. Plus some of these images were processed as doubled sided when only one side would actually be used, and/or process all possible 40 or 80 tracks when only 35 or 70 would actually be used in the original target environment. For example TD02IMD.COM chokes on this disk image: http://www.hpmuseum.net/software/WORDSR80.TD0 I believe the original disk here would only contain 16 valid 256-byte sectors per track, only one side of valid data, and only 70 valid tracks of data on the one valid side. ---------- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 6 09:51:56 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 10:51:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C Message-ID: <20161206155156.26DBB18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick > You should also hang out at vcfed forum in addition to hanging out here. I barely have time to keep up with the things I'm already into (actually, strike that - I _don't_ have time to keep up already :-)! So I'm going to have to pass. Interesting about the FP11 stuff, though. I wonder, however, if those 11/20 mentions are more aspirational, rather than something that was actually done, and later dropped? I say this knowing a modest amount about how the KA11 CPU in the 11/20 works, and a bit about how the FP11-B interfaces to the host CPU. For one thing, it would take some modifications to the KA11 to recognize floating point instructions, so that it can wake up the FP11-B to handle them. But that turns out to be the easy part; it would take further mods to the KA11 because the FP11-B expects the host CPU to do data fetches, etc on its behalf. (See Figure 2-3 in the FP11-B MainManual.) This latter function can't be off-loaded onto a separate interface unit, as it needs access to register contents held in the CPU. I don't have the time to look into this further, but if someone is interested they'd need to study the FP11<->CPU interface, and in particular look at how the KB11 supports memory operations requested by the FP11-B - I wouldn't be suprised if there's some microcode in the KB11 to support those memory operations. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 6 10:06:17 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:06:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Intel C1101A Message-ID: <20161206160617.8B2E218C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark Moulding > I did a bulk buy of some 1960's era miniature vacuum tubes (500 pcs) > for around 50 cents each; the next time I looked, the price from all > vendors who had them had jumped to around $3 There is another possibility (one which I think I saw happening when Guy and I were buying DS8641's, which we previously discussed here), which is that if multiple vendors have stock, an initial order might buy up the ones with the cheapest price, and a second order will wind up being met from a different dealer's stock, one with a higher price. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 6 10:09:08 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:09:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: FP11-C Engineering Drawings? Message-ID: <20161206160908.2A94218C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > i'll see about getting CHM's set scanned Oooh, great; thanks very much, _much_ appreciated! Noel From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Dec 6 10:10:53 2016 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 6 Dec 2016 08:10:53 -0800 Subject: Is there a magic word to format a 8" Altos hard disk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1481040653.5846e30d88b8f@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Al Kossow : > Picked up an Altos 8600 that I bought on eBay yesterday, amazingly the > Xenix actually > came up, but the drive failed as I was tarring off the file system. I > had another Quantum > 2040, put it in, tried to run the formatter, but it says to call Altos, > asks for a confirmation > but just returns to the menu if you type 'y' 'Y' or 'Yes' so I'm > assuming there is a magic > word you have to enter. > > This is the same controller that the Z80 system uses (8000-14) so I'm > guessing someone must > have run into this before. I'm going to paw through the diagnostic > binary to see if there is > something that looks magical. > > Sound familiar? > > sotla iirc From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 6 10:18:27 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 08:18:27 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 12/6/16 7:48 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > Dave, I have some questions/suggestions about TD02IMD.COM > Is Dave still around? I know Eric Smith has been trying to contact him about adding things like M2FM types to the format Browse the web for the Babel that floppy disk image container formats have become. The person working on simulating the HP Integral ran into the problem with HP's funny disk formats with the last track on the Integral disks having sector IDs around 100 that record the wear level of the tracks. I'm really not sure what the right answer is afa extening ImageDisk From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 6 10:18:45 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 16:18:45 +0000 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: <20161206160617.8B2E218C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161206160617.8B2E218C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Business is about making money. The more the better. Just posting on the board here most likely caused a few to go searching for them just from curiosity. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 8:06:17 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Intel C1101A > From: Mark Moulding > I did a bulk buy of some 1960's era miniature vacuum tubes (500 pcs) > for around 50 cents each; the next time I looked, the price from all > vendors who had them had jumped to around $3 There is another possibility (one which I think I saw happening when Guy and I were buying DS8641's, which we previously discussed here), which is that if multiple vendors have stock, an initial order might buy up the ones with the cheapest price, and a second order will wind up being met from a different dealer's stock, one with a higher price. Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 10:30:04 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 08:30:04 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 8:18 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > The person working on simulating the HP Integral ran into the problem with HP's funny > disk formats with the last track on the Integral disks having sector IDs around 100 > that record the wear level of the tracks. As far as that particular issue goes as I encountered it (and getting somewhat back on to the topic of HP logic analyzers) that is also the case with the DSDD LIF format as used by HP 16500A logic analyzers. All 80 tracks are formatted with 5 1024-byte sectors per track with the first 79 tracks using sector numbers 1,2,3,4,5 and the last track using sector numbers 97,98,99,101,101 (0x61,0x62,0x63,0x64,0x65). ImageDisk had no problem reading that low level format. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Dec 6 10:46:51 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 08:46:51 -0800 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> <056301d24e86$547b0be0$fd7123a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7fcd973f-6f5f-ff03-863d-09583c8a6cf7@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <067901d24fe0$5912ab30$0b380190$@bettercomputing.net> I kind of thought that might be a possibility. I might just let things lie for a while.. I was concerned about stock disappearing, didn't think about price tripling. Not sure I want to spend $1400 for 1K of RAM on a clone. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Intel C1101A I do notice these "schlock" IC sellers actually raise the price the more "hits" they get on an item. So your shopping around will actually make the price worse and my even cause your earlier vendors to raise their price when you finally do place an order. corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Dec 4, 2016, at 9:00 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > >> On 12/4/2016 3:29 PM, Brad H wrote: >> The supplier (a different one from the one I first used) that quoted >> me on C1101A for the second round sent me a picture.. exact same 'lot' or 'job' >> number as the ones I have. So perhaps even that may not be meaningful? >> What are the odds I'd hit the exact same dates from two different suppliers? >> >> I'm thinking it's*fairly* safe to assume white ceramic is pre-76, at >> least.. but yeah.. might be impossible to ever really know. I'm just >> wondering why the price jumped to $40+ each all of a sudden! > Brad, > a very large number of schlock IC sellers all communicate with each other. They all have a continuous stream of wants or needs that they exchange. but they make their own prices. The probability is that you may have hit the original stocking guy with your first query. Querying any others will result in them looking at the wants that others shared, or buys, and he saw someone else had it and quoted you the same info. > > I know this happens as I know two guys who trade in all manner of stock all the time like this and have for 35 to 40 years. > > thanks > Jim From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Dec 6 10:46:51 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 08:46:51 -0800 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> <056301d24e86$547b0be0$fd7123a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7fcd973f-6f5f-ff03-863d-09583c8a6cf7@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <067901d24fe0$5912ab30$0b380190$@bettercomputing.net> I kind of thought that might be a possibility. I might just let things lie for a while.. I was concerned about stock disappearing, didn't think about price tripling. Not sure I want to spend $1400 for 1K of RAM on a clone. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Intel C1101A I do notice these "schlock" IC sellers actually raise the price the more "hits" they get on an item. So your shopping around will actually make the price worse and my even cause your earlier vendors to raise their price when you finally do place an order. corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Dec 4, 2016, at 9:00 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > >> On 12/4/2016 3:29 PM, Brad H wrote: >> The supplier (a different one from the one I first used) that quoted >> me on C1101A for the second round sent me a picture.. exact same 'lot' or 'job' >> number as the ones I have. So perhaps even that may not be meaningful? >> What are the odds I'd hit the exact same dates from two different suppliers? >> >> I'm thinking it's*fairly* safe to assume white ceramic is pre-76, at >> least.. but yeah.. might be impossible to ever really know. I'm just >> wondering why the price jumped to $40+ each all of a sudden! > Brad, > a very large number of schlock IC sellers all communicate with each other. They all have a continuous stream of wants or needs that they exchange. but they make their own prices. The probability is that you may have hit the original stocking guy with your first query. Querying any others will result in them looking at the wants that others shared, or buys, and he saw someone else had it and quoted you the same info. > > I know this happens as I know two guys who trade in all manner of stock all the time like this and have for 35 to 40 years. > > thanks > Jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Dec 6 11:28:03 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 09:28:03 -0800 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: <067901d24fe0$5912ab30$0b380190$@bettercomputing.net> References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> <056301d24e86$547b0be0$fd7123a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7fcd973f-6f5f-ff03-863d-09583c8a6cf7@jwsss.com> <067901d24fe0$5912ab30$0b380190$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On 12/6/2016 8:46 AM, Brad H wrote: > I kind of thought that might be a possibility. I might just let things lie for a while.. I was concerned about stock disappearing, didn't think about price tripling. Not sure I want to spend $1400 for 1K of RAM on a clone.:) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen > Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:27 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Intel C1101A > > I do notice these "schlock" IC sellers actually raise the price the more "hits" they get on an item. So your shopping around will actually make the price worse and my even cause your earlier vendors to raise their price when you finally do place an order. > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? Most of these guys will deal. I don't know if you have approached them with a story or with an offer, but you can usually get them to make a deal. If you have details on it, contact me and I'll send you my friend's contact info and see if he can get you something if your own efforts fail. I've known him now for 40 years and find him to be one of the "good guys". I spent a lot of time in his office when the fax machine would fire 2 or 3 times a minute and have a pile of 100 or 200 pages of wants or haves backed up he's have to look at. Wading thru that and making money is why they are so weird in pricing and dealing. He would always treat me fair though when I had something as he knew my needs weren't for a deal that could ultimately yield a huge payback, and I'd be restoring some old equipment. Some don't care just want a buck. You need to realize most people who will buy schlock parts will most likely be repairing a board for some alphabet agency or entity who probably is having to pay $1000 or $2000 / board to get back in business, with ancient unobtaininum parts on board. There is a lot of this going on that isn't out there unless you are in the business, or unless you see the $5000 odd board for the old DEC box and wonder why the hell they are so expensive. I've had some people with really high prices respond in the last year to reasonable offers for some rare stuff when I tell them what I plan to do with it. Thanks jim From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Dec 6 11:34:51 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 09:34:51 -0800 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> <056301d24e86$547b0be0$fd7123a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7fcd973f-6f5f-ff03-863d-09583c8a6cf7@jwsss.com> <067901d24fe0$5912ab30$0b380190$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <06a901d24fe7$0d3c21d0$27b46570$@bettercomputing.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 9:28 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Intel C1101A On 12/6/2016 8:46 AM, Brad H wrote: > I kind of thought that might be a possibility. I might just let > things lie for a while.. I was concerned about stock disappearing, > didn't think about price tripling. Not sure I want to spend $1400 for > 1K of RAM on a clone.:) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey > Cohen > Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:27 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Subject: Re: Intel C1101A > > I do notice these "schlock" IC sellers actually raise the price the more "hits" they get on an item. So your shopping around will actually make the price worse and my even cause your earlier vendors to raise their price when you finally do place an order. > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? Most of these guys will deal. I don't know if you have approached them with a story or with an offer, but you can usually get them to make a deal. If you have details on it, contact me and I'll send you my friend's contact info and see if he can get you something if your own efforts fail. I've known him now for 40 years and find him to be one of the "good guys". I spent a lot of time in his office when the fax machine would fire 2 or 3 times a minute and have a pile of 100 or 200 pages of wants or haves backed up he's have to look at. Wading thru that and making money is why they are so weird in pricing and dealing. He would always treat me fair though when I had something as he knew my needs weren't for a deal that could ultimately yield a huge payback, and I'd be restoring some old equipment. Some don't care just want a buck. You need to realize most people who will buy schlock parts will most likely be repairing a board for some alphabet agency or entity who probably is having to pay $1000 or $2000 / board to get back in business, with ancient unobtaininum parts on board. There is a lot of this going on that isn't out there unless you are in the business, or unless you see the $5000 odd board for the old DEC box and wonder why the hell they are so expensive. I've had some people with really high prices respond in the last year to reasonable offers for some rare stuff when I tell them what I plan to do with it. >Thanks >jim Thanks Jim.. I did try some negotiation with the three suppliers I contacted but no flex at all. I'm suspecting they're all going to the same source and said source has decided to maintain the price where it is. Lesson here is if you're buying these things at all, get em all at once. :) I don't *have* to have C1101A -- almost all Mark-8s I've seen were done with P1101A, and the only diff with C1101A is the encapsulation as far as I know.. I just went with C1101A because it was more certain they'd be over a certain age, and now that I have a bunch it'd be nice to keep it consistent. I don't think I even have to build out to a full 1K to have a running Mark-8.. but it'd be nice. From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Dec 6 13:56:38 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:56:38 -0800 Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C In-Reply-To: <20161206155156.26DBB18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161206155156.26DBB18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Dec 6, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > [data fetch] can't be off-loaded onto a separate interface unit, as it needs access to > register contents held in the CPU. Yeah, it?s pretty interesting! My guess would be that it was a separate register/command oriented interface, sitting on the Unibus, and didn?t actually interface directly with the 11/20 CPU? Such an interface could limit the instructions ?fed? to the FPU to those accessing its internal registers, etc. But who knows? :-) I?ve gotten quite deep into the design of the FP11-B and associated KB11-A interfacing during my debug (which is how I noticed all the 11/20 refs in the docs, circuitry, and microcode), but I?m pretty ignorant of the 11/20 having never worked on one. > I wouldn't be surprised if there's some microcode in the KB11 to support those memory operations. Yes, there certainly is ? quite a bit of it actually. The are F/CLASS branches off all three of the A, B, and C forks. ?FritzM. From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Dec 6 13:24:21 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 14:24:21 -0500 Subject: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update In-Reply-To: <26db32d0-3b1c-1733-3649-215658a54289@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20160502134811.6BAA018C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4914a6b0-b514-a31c-0eab-6836382fe6fd@telegraphics.com.au> <26db32d0-3b1c-1733-3649-215658a54289@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <8d451f35-e495-5feb-86b4-e0b0992ed2d7@verizon.net> On 12/6/16 10:05 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-12-06 1:34 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:53 PM, allison wrote: >> >>> A bunch of us old digits (former dec engineers) got together and were >>> talking >>> about old systems and the thing that stood out is a general dislike for >>> having >>> to use the limited set of bus interface chips when there were newer >>> parts. It >>> was a internal mandate not something that was better than could be had. >>> The >>> logic was the parts were known, the vendors vetted for quality and >>> reliability >>> and when you use hundreds of thousands to millions of a part like bus >>> interface >>> and ram quality is a critical thing. Were they special, a flat no. >>> >> >> I don't fully agree. The receivers (and transceivers) had a threshold >> voltage that is not available with modern parts, and that actually was > > I'm an electronics noob, but do you mean a threshold of 1.5V, as with > DS8641? > I'm not a noob. I'm an engineer from the the realm of DEC engineering. I also forget the 74LS14 hex inverter with hysteresis which has a threshold about 1.5V depending on whos datasheet you believe. Bottom line is the older parts has a low Vih and a high Vil with a resulting narrow noise immunity. Increasing the Vih helps this and the driver/bus combo can support it. The yabut is if the drivers have leakage then attaining Vih on the bus is problematic as the leakage was a undesired pull down. The 8xxx parts used were screened for low leakage with output is in the high state (open as they are open collector). The bus loads assert the Voltage high state and that is above 2.3V so the only limiting factor then is excessive capacitive loading which smears pulsed by RC time constant. The other issue with slow edges is where the edge really is and that adds uncertainty to timing. All of those things were allowed for in the design of the bus. The voltage your hung up about was tested to insure it was never lower than that or the noise immunity was terrible. Its companion was was that the saturated device in the package could also achieve the limit or less or a low voltage at the rated current, at that time (late 60s early 70s) this was a hard parameter to control. The bottom lime is the better the logic high voltage and logic low voltages achieved the greater noise immunity. Adding hysteresis insure that a hig is high and a low is low and not some random analog voltage inbetween (or oscillation!). As to any slew rate testing the issue was that devices that could sink the needed current were also slow as sludge and had to be tested to insure they were fast enough not that they would have a slow propagation time and switching speed as that was also a undesired in systems where fast is important. Bottom line is the datasheet and purchase spec was to insure the part worked to or better than expected rather than implying magical properties. Allison > I'm referring to this part of October's thread: > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-October/028871.html > > > --Toby > > >> important for large systems with multiple bus segments. That was >> particularly important for large Unibus systems, but even Qbus with only >> two bus segments can get finicky when heavily loaded. >> >> DEC could easily have made custom interface ICs if they had needed them. >> >> AFAIK, *no* current production interface ICs have the right >> threshold. It's >> hard to meet the spec without using either NOS parts or comparators. >> >> It would certainly be possible to build a functionally equivalent bus >> with >> modern interface ICs, and it might have significantly better >> performance, >> but it wouldn't be compatible with the legacy systems. >> > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Dec 6 13:27:22 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 14:27:22 -0500 Subject: Intel C1101A In-Reply-To: <067901d24fe0$5912ab30$0b380190$@bettercomputing.net> References: <04bb01d24da7$0a53d8b0$1efb8a10$@bettercomputing.net> <056301d24e86$547b0be0$fd7123a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7fcd973f-6f5f-ff03-863d-09583c8a6cf7@jwsss.com> <067901d24fe0$5912ab30$0b380190$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <33d486b9-62b2-a536-82d5-c9b61c41c71e@verizon.net> On 12/6/16 11:46 AM, Brad H wrote: > I kind of thought that might be a possibility. I might just let things lie for a while.. I was concerned about stock disappearing, didn't think about price tripling. Not sure I want to spend $1400 for 1K of RAM on a clone. :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen > Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:27 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Intel C1101A > > I do notice these "schlock" IC sellers actually raise the price the more "hits" they get on an item. So your shopping around will actually make the price worse and my even cause your earlier vendors to raise their price when you finally do place an order. > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > >> On Dec 4, 2016, at 9:00 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> >> >> >>> On 12/4/2016 3:29 PM, Brad H wrote: >>> The supplier (a different one from the one I first used) that quoted >>> me on C1101A for the second round sent me a picture.. exact same 'lot' or 'job' >>> number as the ones I have. So perhaps even that may not be meaningful? >>> What are the odds I'd hit the exact same dates from two different suppliers? >>> >>> I'm thinking it's*fairly* safe to assume white ceramic is pre-76, at >>> least.. but yeah.. might be impossible to ever really know. I'm just >>> wondering why the price jumped to $40+ each all of a sudden! >> Brad, >> a very large number of schlock IC sellers all communicate with each other. They all have a continuous stream of wants or needs that they exchange. but they make their own prices. The probability is that you may have hit the original stocking guy with your first query. Querying any others will result in them looking at the wants that others shared, or buys, and he saw someone else had it and quoted you the same info. >> >> I know this happens as I know two guys who trade in all manner of stock all the time like this and have for 35 to 40 years. >> >> thanks >> Jim Considering the first 1101s I ever bought in the early 70s were around 12-14$ each in small volumes (24-48). By the mid 1975s they had dropped to a buck or so as there were faster and denser parts. But then the first 2102s cost me about 14$ in early 74 so that was the way it was. Allison From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Dec 6 15:13:43 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 16:13:43 -0500 Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C In-Reply-To: References: <20161206155156.26DBB18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:56 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > >> On Dec 6, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> [data fetch] can't be off-loaded onto a separate interface unit, as it needs access to >> register contents held in the CPU. > > Yeah, it?s pretty interesting! My guess would be that it was a separate register/command oriented interface, sitting on the Unibus, and didn?t actually interface directly with the 11/20 CPU? Such an interface could limit the instructions ?fed? to the FPU to those accessing its internal registers, etc. But who knows? :-) I don't know anything of a DEC product along those lines, but a college classmate of mine (Bill Black, Lawrence Univ. class of 1975) built a floating point coprocessor for our PDP11/20 that was a Unibus peripheral. I helped with the software interface. The device had 4 registers, two for source and two for second source and result. They appeared at several different bus addresses; you'd select the operation to perform based on which address you used. The device would start when the 4 source words had been loaded, then a read cycle of the result register would simply be held off until the operation was done (since it would complete well within the SSYNC timeout). The implementation took, if I remember right, one hex-sized wire wrap board. paul From pye at mactec.com.au Tue Dec 6 18:57:03 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 10:57:03 +1000 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? Message-ID: I?m moving my collection and found this board amongst some others. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0m4VYF4tIU5aXJMSHBwUDJMUWM Cheers, Chris From jonelson126 at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 20:32:10 2016 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 20:32:10 -0600 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <584774AA.2050400@pico-systems.com> On 12/06/2016 06:57 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > I?m moving my collection and found this board amongst some others. > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0m4VYF4tIU5aXJMSHBwUDJMUWM > > Cheers, > Chris It appears to be an extended-length Multibus II board with 2 8-bit DACs on it. Output for an XY scope? Jon From pye at mactec.com.au Tue Dec 6 20:40:49 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:40:49 +1000 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? In-Reply-To: <584774AA.2050400@pico-systems.com> References: <584774AA.2050400@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <00BE5D7E-6202-4D62-851D-FAA884636B7A@mactec.com.au> > On 7 Dec 2016, at 12:32 pm, Jon Elson wrote: > > > On 12/06/2016 06:57 PM, Chris Pye wrote: >> I?m moving my collection and found this board amongst some others. >> >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0m4VYF4tIU5aXJMSHBwUDJMUWM >> >> Cheers, >> Chris > It appears to be an extended-length Multibus II board with 2 8-bit DACs on it. Output for an XY scope? > > Jon Thanks Jon If anybody wants it, they can have it for cost of postage. I am in Brisbane Australia, so it?s probably going to be costly outside AU.. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 20:58:24 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 21:58:24 -0500 Subject: Miniscribe 6053 HD PCB needed Message-ID: <074CFFA13AFF454581BCC3E1EEEC5306@310e2> Hi all, I accidentally dropped something on a Miniscribe 6053 44MB HD and cracked the board; looks pretty dense and tricky to repair so I'm hoping that there's a kind soul out there somewhere who happens to have a 6053 doorstop and can spare the circuit board for a good cause? Removing the board shouldn't impair the door-stopping capability in any way... Mike (in Toronto) From mike at fenz.net Tue Dec 6 23:18:36 2016 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 18:18:36 +1300 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/12/2016 1:57 p.m., Chris Pye wrote: > I?m moving my collection and found this board amongst some others. > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0m4VYF4tIU5aXJMSHBwUDJMUWM > > Cheers, > Chris It's a Compugraphics board of some sort, I think. Couple of AD or DAs, etc. I know nothing about these, just recognised the logo. Cheers - Mike From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 23:57:08 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 22:57:08 -0700 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? In-Reply-To: <584774AA.2050400@pico-systems.com> References: <584774AA.2050400@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > It appears to be an extended-length Multibus II board with 2 8-bit DACs on > it. Output for an XY scope? > Extended-length Multibus. Definitely not Multibus II, which uses Eurocard 6Ux220 form factor with two 96-pin DIN 41612 connectors. From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Dec 7 01:34:26 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 02:34:26 -0500 Subject: Have lunch with Lee Felsenstein Message-ID: <42f12b6a-d3ab-8739-2d83-0f7f420145eb@snarc.net> Only 12 hours left to bid on lunch with legendary computer engineer Lee Felsenstein! This benefits Vintage Computer Federation, a 501(c)3 non-profit devoted to enabling collectors, growing the hobby, and spreading awareness of computer history. Please see https://www.charitybuzz.com/catalog_items/lunch-for-3-with-personal-computing-social-media-icon-1198500. From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Wed Dec 7 10:10:16 2016 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 16:10:16 +0000 Subject: Wanted: Terminator for an RL02 Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone have a spare RL02 terminator for sale? Regards, -Tom From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 7 13:46:32 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 14:46:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX expert 'needed' Message-ID: <20161207194632.DF97018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, looking at the list of 'wanted pages' on the Computer History' wiki: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Special:WantedPages the top page or so of entries are all about various Vaxen. Is there a volunteer our there to sign up as an editor there (note: applications have to be approved, which can take a couple of days, due to busyness on the part of the admin) to start writing up VAX content? Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 15:40:59 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 16:40:59 -0500 Subject: VAX expert 'needed' In-Reply-To: <20161207194632.DF97018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161207194632.DF97018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So, looking at the list of 'wanted pages' on the Computer History' wiki: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Special:WantedPages > > the top page or so of entries are all about various Vaxen. And plenty of entries for terminals and PDP-8 models below that... > Is there a volunteer our there to sign up as an editor there (note: > applications have to be approved, which can take a couple of days, due to > busyness on the part of the admin) to start writing up VAX content? I'm sending off an account request. -ethan From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Wed Dec 7 16:37:17 2016 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 22:37:17 +0000 Subject: M7869 KY11-LB ROM dumps Message-ID: Hi All, I've been testing an M7869 recently and noticed that my 11/34 would give a BUS ERR whenever it was halted or if I tried to read from the switch register, so I used the "wholly scientific" fingerpoken troubleshooting method and noticed the ROM at U33 (P/N 23345A9) was piping hot. Does anyone have a dump of this ROM that I could use? Regards, -Tom From mike.niswonger at cox.net Wed Dec 7 22:32:17 2016 From: mike.niswonger at cox.net (Mike Niswonger) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 22:32:17 -0600 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The "CG" logo on the corner appears to be one of the many Compugraphic logos. Possibly a a board from a custom phototypesetter that drove a CRT to expose the photomask (film)? On 12/06/2016 06:57 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > I?m moving my collection and found this board amongst some others. > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0m4VYF4tIU5aXJMSHBwUDJMUWM > > Cheers, > Chris From seefriek at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 23:02:13 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 00:02:13 -0500 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? Message-ID: From: Jon Elson > It appears to be an extended-length Multibus II board No. Multibus II used DIN connectors. KJ From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed Dec 7 14:18:18 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 20:18:18 +0000 Subject: Base 64 posts to the list In-Reply-To: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> References: from "Ian S. King" at "Dec 4, 16 12:39:32 pm" <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A42@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Cameron Kaiser Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 6:35 AM >>> Thanks for the suggestion. My delivery was set to MIME, I have changed it >>> to plain text. Hopefully that will solve the problem. >> What? No format flame war? What's this world coming to? > emacs sucks! > *waits patiently* Well, sure, if you load the suckit.el library, but that's optional. It's faster if you load the compiled suckit.elc instead. I prefer the compiled TECO variant BITEME.:EJ, of course! ;-) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed Dec 7 14:46:32 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 20:46:32 +0000 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 6:15 PM > On 12/05/2016 01:09 PM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >> As Charles wrote, the PDP-10 commonly uses 7-bit bytes for ASCII >> text, but that's only part of the truth. The architecture is quite >> byte size agnostic. There are instructions to operate on any byte >> size from 1 to 36 bits, at any position inside a word. (Well, a >> later extension to the architecture restricted this a bit.) The restriction Lars mentions only applies to what are referred to as One-Word Global Byte Pointers (OWGBPs), which encode the divisions of a 36-bit word into 6, 7, 8, 9, or 18 bit bytes into a 6-bit value in the high-order bits of a word with a 30-bit address filling the rest. There are also Two-Word Global Byte Pointers (which I've never seen abbreviated) which carry the standard "any size byte at any position" in the first word, with a zero address in the right half, and the 30-bit extended address (with 0's in the 6 high-order bits) in the second. > I've seen PDP-10 9-track tapes done two ways--one character per frame > and then 4 frames (36 bits) with 5 7-bit characters and the sign bit > left over. Neither of those is entirely accurate. 9-track tapes on the PDP-10 used one of the following encodings: 1. Core-Dump: 4 frames of 8 bits, 5th frame with 4 leading 0's (or 0100 on one type of controller) and the last 4 bits. 2. Industry-Compatible: 4 frames of 8 bits, and ignore the low order 4. 3. ANSI-ASCII: 4 frames of 7 bits padded with a leading 0, 5th frame with low order bit (B35) followed by the remaining 7 bits. In this case, B35 is usually 0, but in the case of line-numbered files B35 = 1 is the indicator that the 5 ASCII digits are a line number (and the parity bit is set incorrectly on the tape). 4. High-Density: 4 frames of 8 bits, 5th frame has low order 4 bits of the 1st word in its high order bits + high order 4 bits of the 2nd word in its low order bits, then 4 frames of 8 bits finishing up the 2nd word. I've been dealing with PDP-10 tapes for 40 years now. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 18:34:31 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 19:34:31 -0500 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? Message-ID: > > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 22:57:08 -0700 > From: Eric Smith > Subject: Re: Could somebody please help me identify this board? > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > > It appears to be an extended-length Multibus II board with 2 8-bit DACs > on > > it. Output for an XY scope? > > > > Extended-length Multibus. Definitely not Multibus II, which uses Eurocard > 6Ux220 form factor with two 96-pin DIN 41612 connectors. > The components are on the wrong side of the board for a Multibus. If I remember correctly, DY 4 Systems, now part of Curtiss-Wright, made extended depth Multibus boards. Michael Thompson From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 22:28:56 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 21:28:56 -0700 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > Extended-length Multibus. Definitely not Multibus II, which uses > Eurocard > > 6Ux220 form factor with two 96-pin DIN 41612 connectors. > > The components are on the wrong side of the board for a Multibus. > Given that it's extended length anyhow, and thus not compliant with the bus spec, it doesn't really matter which side of the board the components are on, other than it precludes use in some backplane slots. I may have been designed that way to fit in a specific slot in a specific machine. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 22:31:42 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 21:31:42 -0700 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 9:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Given that it's extended length anyhow, and thus not compliant with the > bus spec, it doesn't really matter which side of the board the components > are on, other than it precludes use in some backplane slots. I may have > been designed that way to fit in a specific slot in a specific machine. > On the other hand, the pin count on the wider edge connector is 100 rather than 86 so not Multibus. From lars at nocrew.org Thu Dec 8 00:37:12 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 07:37:12 +0100 Subject: EMACS folly In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A42@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> (Rich Alderson's message of "Wed, 7 Dec 2016 20:18:18 +0000") References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A42@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <8660mvhqp3.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Rich Alderson wrote: > Well, sure, if you load the suckit.el library, but that's optional. It's > faster if you load the compiled suckit.elc instead. > > I prefer the compiled TECO variant BITEME.:EJ, of course! Loaded into GNU Emacs? ;-) Hey, do you have any VAXen over there? How about getting an early Emacs running on those? I turned the Internet inside out to find Gosling Emacs, BTL Emacs, and GNU Emacs 15 and 17, and and it would be a shame if the source code was just sitting idle. Or how about TECO EMACS? Only not on the PDP family you'd expect, but the 16-bit flavor. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 8 00:42:34 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 22:42:34 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 12/07/2016 12:46 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Neither of those is entirely accurate. 9-track tapes on the PDP-10 > used one of the following encodings: The last time that I had to deal with PDP-10 tapes, admittedly also 40 years ago was essentially core-dump format. 5 7-bit characters per word, with one bit unused; words packed end-to-end; i.e. 9 frames for 2 PDP 10 words. It was the "Adventure" game, smuggled to me by a DEC field engineer. Translating to CDC display code and then dealing with the differences in FORTRAN made the work interesting. The thing spread like wildfire throughout the CDC corporate system and was ardently hunted and purged by COMSOURCE administrators. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Dec 8 01:03:20 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 23:03:20 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <269dfc3c-7ef5-0369-1d4a-da70a4dd706d@jwsss.com> On 12/7/2016 10:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/07/2016 12:46 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > >> Neither of those is entirely accurate. 9-track tapes on the PDP-10 >> used one of the following encodings: > The last time that I had to deal with PDP-10 tapes, admittedly also 40 > years ago was essentially core-dump format. 5 7-bit characters per > word, with one bit unused; words packed end-to-end; i.e. 9 frames for 2 > PDP 10 words. > > It was the "Adventure" game, smuggled to me by a DEC field engineer. > > Translating to CDC display code and then dealing with the differences in > FORTRAN made the work interesting. The thing spread like wildfire > throughout the CDC corporate system and was ardently hunted and purged > by COMSOURCE administrators. > > --Chuck The Multics version I saw came from a Fortran version taken from a PDP10. If I'm not mistaken it was directly from the timeshare system they used in Billerica,Ma where Don Woods worked. After some massaging it was unleashed on Multics. Most of Honeywell was wiped out by copies on various machines for quite some time (2 or 3 months?) before people quit risking getting into trouble to play it anyway. There were two files, the main fortran file, and the table file with the cave encoding. I suspect anyone who got a copy of the latter, and read the former wrote a program to print out a very useful cheat sheet. If you had that, you could solve all of the puzzles from data in the table, and you only had to worry about the problems associated with random behavior. The PDP-10 source did have a schedule feature to allow the game to only be played during certain hours, but in the copy we were running that was bypassed to allow it to run 24 / 7. thanks Jim From lars at nocrew.org Thu Dec 8 04:20:05 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 11:20:05 +0100 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> (Rich Alderson's message of "Wed, 7 Dec 2016 20:46:32 +0000") References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <86mvg6hgdm.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 6:15 PM >> I've seen PDP-10 9-track tapes done two ways--one character per frame >> and then 4 frames (36 bits) with 5 7-bit characters and the sign bit >> left over. > > Neither of those is entirely accurate. 9-track tapes on the PDP-10 > [...] I know nothing about physical magtapes. I have seen this comment about the MIT ITS machines: > DM had the only 9-track tape drive; the other machines had 7-track > tapes, as befit 36-bit machines. So I suppose many ITS tapes would have stored six frames per word. From Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de Thu Dec 8 05:18:45 2016 From: Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de (Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 12:18:45 +0100 Subject: Brother TC-600 Terminal/Typewriter Message-ID: <000c01d25144$d77bda90$86738fb0$@MH-AeroTools.de> Hi, recently I acquired a 1980s Typewriter, a Brother TC-600. While not exactly a classic computer, this typewriter was often used as a low cost printing terminal (aka teletype). It has a serial interface and I was able to connect it to my PC. I can SEND characters and text files to a terminal program. However I have not found out how to receive something back. Ideally it should print out what the host sends. On the internet I found a manual for the Brother EP-44 which is similar, but not identical. Does someone have a manual for the TC-600? Thanks, Martin > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk- > request at classiccmp.org > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 7. Dezember 2016 19:00 > An: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 30, Issue 7 > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Double Buffer RK11-C (Fritz Mueller) > 2. Re: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update (allison) > 3. Re: Intel C1101A (allison) > 4. Re: Double Buffer RK11-C (Paul Koning) > 5. Could somebody please help me identify this board? (Chris Pye) > 6. Re: Could somebody please help me identify this board? (Jon Elson) > 7. Re: Could somebody please help me identify this board? (Chris Pye) > 8. Miniscribe 6053 HD PCB needed (Mike Stein) > 9. Re: Could somebody please help me identify this board? > (Mike van Bokhoven) > 10. Re: Could somebody please help me identify this board? > (Eric Smith) > 11. Have lunch with Lee Felsenstein (Evan Koblentz) > 12. Wanted: Terminator for an RL02 (Tom Moss) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:56:38 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Double Buffer RK11-C > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > On Dec 6, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > > [data fetch] can't be off-loaded onto a separate interface unit, as it needs > access to > > register contents held in the CPU. > > Yeah, it?s pretty interesting! My guess would be that it was a separate > register/command oriented interface, sitting on the Unibus, and didn?t actually > interface directly with the 11/20 CPU? Such an interface could limit the > instructions ?fed? to the FPU to those accessing its internal registers, etc. But > who knows? :-) > > I?ve gotten quite deep into the design of the FP11-B and associated KB11-A > interfacing during my debug (which is how I noticed all the 11/20 refs in the > docs, circuitry, and microcode), but I?m pretty ignorant of the 11/20 having > never worked on one. > > > I wouldn't be surprised if there's some microcode in the KB11 to support those > memory operations. > > Yes, there certainly is ? quite a bit of it actually. The are F/CLASS branches off all > three of the A, B, and C forks. > > ?FritzM. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 14:24:21 -0500 > From: allison > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: UNIBUS/QBUS interface chips Was: Re: MEM11 update > Message-ID: <8d451f35-e495-5feb-86b4-e0b0992ed2d7 at verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 12/6/16 10:05 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 2016-12-06 1:34 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:53 PM, allison wrote: > >> > >>> A bunch of us old digits (former dec engineers) got together and were > >>> talking > >>> about old systems and the thing that stood out is a general dislike for > >>> having > >>> to use the limited set of bus interface chips when there were newer > >>> parts. It > >>> was a internal mandate not something that was better than could be had. > >>> The > >>> logic was the parts were known, the vendors vetted for quality and > >>> reliability > >>> and when you use hundreds of thousands to millions of a part like bus > >>> interface > >>> and ram quality is a critical thing. Were they special, a flat no. > >>> > >> > >> I don't fully agree. The receivers (and transceivers) had a threshold > >> voltage that is not available with modern parts, and that actually was > > > > I'm an electronics noob, but do you mean a threshold of 1.5V, as with > > DS8641? > > > I'm not a noob. I'm an engineer from the the realm of DEC engineering. > > I also forget the 74LS14 hex inverter with hysteresis which has a > threshold about 1.5V > depending on whos datasheet you believe. > > Bottom line is the older parts has a low Vih and a high Vil with a > resulting narrow noise immunity. > Increasing the Vih helps this and the driver/bus combo can support it. > The yabut is if the drivers > have leakage then attaining Vih on the bus is problematic as the leakage > was a undesired pull down. > The 8xxx parts used were screened for low leakage with output is in the > high state (open as they > are open collector). The bus loads assert the Voltage high state and > that is above 2.3V so the only > limiting factor then is excessive capacitive loading which smears pulsed > by RC time constant. The > other issue with slow edges is where the edge really is and that adds > uncertainty to timing. All > of those things were allowed for in the design of the bus. > > The voltage your hung up about was tested to insure it was never lower > than that or the noise > immunity was terrible. Its companion was was that the saturated device > in the package could > also achieve the limit or less or a low voltage at the rated current, at > that time (late 60s early 70s) > this was a hard parameter to control. > > The bottom lime is the better the logic high voltage and logic low > voltages achieved the greater > noise immunity. Adding hysteresis insure that a hig is high and a low > is low and not some random > analog voltage inbetween (or oscillation!). > > As to any slew rate testing the issue was that devices that could sink > the needed current were also > slow as sludge and had to be tested to insure they were fast enough not > that they would have a > slow propagation time and switching speed as that was also a undesired > in systems where fast > is important. Bottom line is the datasheet and purchase spec was to > insure the part worked to or > better than expected rather than implying magical properties. > > > Allison > > > I'm referring to this part of October's thread: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-October/028871.html > > > > > > --Toby > > > > > >> important for large systems with multiple bus segments. That was > >> particularly important for large Unibus systems, but even Qbus with only > >> two bus segments can get finicky when heavily loaded. > >> > >> DEC could easily have made custom interface ICs if they had needed them. > >> > >> AFAIK, *no* current production interface ICs have the right > >> threshold. It's > >> hard to meet the spec without using either NOS parts or comparators. > >> > >> It would certainly be possible to build a functionally equivalent bus > >> with > >> modern interface ICs, and it might have significantly better > >> performance, > >> but it wouldn't be compatible with the legacy systems. > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 14:27:22 -0500 > From: allison > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Intel C1101A > Message-ID: <33d486b9-62b2-a536-82d5-c9b61c41c71e at verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 12/6/16 11:46 AM, Brad H wrote: > > I kind of thought that might be a possibility. I might just let things lie for a > while.. I was concerned about stock disappearing, didn't think about price > tripling. Not sure I want to spend $1400 for 1K of RAM on a clone. :) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey > Cohen > > Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:27 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Re: Intel C1101A > > > > I do notice these "schlock" IC sellers actually raise the price the more "hits" > they get on an item. So your shopping around will actually make the price worse > and my even cause your earlier vendors to raise their price when you finally do > place an order. > > > > corey cohen > > u??o? ???o? > > > >> On Dec 4, 2016, at 9:00 PM, jim stephens wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 12/4/2016 3:29 PM, Brad H wrote: > >>> The supplier (a different one from the one I first used) that quoted > >>> me on C1101A for the second round sent me a picture.. exact same 'lot' or > 'job' > >>> number as the ones I have. So perhaps even that may not be meaningful? > >>> What are the odds I'd hit the exact same dates from two different suppliers? > >>> > >>> I'm thinking it's*fairly* safe to assume white ceramic is pre-76, at > >>> least.. but yeah.. might be impossible to ever really know. I'm just > >>> wondering why the price jumped to $40+ each all of a sudden! > >> Brad, > >> a very large number of schlock IC sellers all communicate with each other. > They all have a continuous stream of wants or needs that they exchange. but > they make their own prices. The probability is that you may have hit the original > stocking guy with your first query. Querying any others will result in them > looking at the wants that others shared, or buys, and he saw someone else had > it and quoted you the same info. > >> > >> I know this happens as I know two guys who trade in all manner of stock all > the time like this and have for 35 to 40 years. > >> > >> thanks > >> Jim > Considering the first 1101s I ever bought in the early 70s were around > 12-14$ each in small volumes (24-48). > By the mid 1975s they had dropped to a buck or so as there were faster > and denser parts. But then the first 2102s > cost me about 14$ in early 74 so that was the way it was. > > Allison > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 16:13:43 -0500 > From: Paul Koning > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Double Buffer RK11-C > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > On Dec 6, 2016, at 2:56 PM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > > > > >> On Dec 6, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> > >> [data fetch] can't be off-loaded onto a separate interface unit, as it needs > access to > >> register contents held in the CPU. > > > > Yeah, it?s pretty interesting! My guess would be that it was a separate > register/command oriented interface, sitting on the Unibus, and didn?t actually > interface directly with the 11/20 CPU? Such an interface could limit the > instructions ?fed? to the FPU to those accessing its internal registers, etc. But > who knows? :-) > > I don't know anything of a DEC product along those lines, but a college > classmate of mine (Bill Black, Lawrence Univ. class of 1975) built a floating point > coprocessor for our PDP11/20 that was a Unibus peripheral. I helped with the > software interface. The device had 4 registers, two for source and two for > second source and result. They appeared at several different bus addresses; > you'd select the operation to perform based on which address you used. The > device would start when the 4 source words had been loaded, then a read cycle > of the result register would simply be held off until the operation was done > (since it would complete well within the SSYNC timeout). > > The implementation took, if I remember right, one hex-sized wire wrap board. > > paul > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 10:57:03 +1000 > From: Chris Pye > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I?m moving my collection and found this board amongst some others. > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0m4VYF4tIU5aXJMSHBwUDJMUWM > > > Cheers, > Chris > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 20:32:10 -0600 > From: Jon Elson > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Could somebody please help me identify this board? > Message-ID: <584774AA.2050400 at pico-systems.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > On 12/06/2016 06:57 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > > I?m moving my collection and found this board amongst some others. > > > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0m4VYF4tIU5aXJMSHBwUDJMUWM > > > > > Cheers, > > Chris > It appears to be an extended-length Multibus II board with 2 8-bit DACs > on it. Output for an XY scope? > > Jon > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:40:49 +1000 > From: Chris Pye > To: elson at pico-systems.com, "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Could somebody please help me identify this board? > Message-ID: <00BE5D7E-6202-4D62-851D-FAA884636B7A at mactec.com.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > On 7 Dec 2016, at 12:32 pm, Jon Elson wrote: > > > > > > On 12/06/2016 06:57 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > >> I?m moving my collection and found this board amongst some others. > >> > >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0m4VYF4tIU5aXJMSHBwUDJMUWM > > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Chris > > It appears to be an extended-length Multibus II board with 2 8-bit DACs on it. > Output for an XY scope? > > > > Jon > > Thanks Jon > > If anybody wants it, they can have it for cost of postage. I am in Brisbane > Australia, so it?s probably going to be costly outside AU.. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 21:58:24 -0500 > From: "Mike Stein" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Miniscribe 6053 HD PCB needed > Message-ID: <074CFFA13AFF454581BCC3E1EEEC5306 at 310e2> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all, > > I accidentally dropped something on a Miniscribe 6053 44MB HD and cracked > the board; looks pretty dense and tricky to repair so I'm hoping that there's a > kind soul out there somewhere who happens to have a 6053 doorstop and can > spare the circuit board for a good cause? > > Removing the board shouldn't impair the door-stopping capability in any way... > > Mike (in Toronto) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 18:18:36 +1300 > From: Mike van Bokhoven > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Could somebody please help me identify this board? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 7/12/2016 1:57 p.m., Chris Pye wrote: > > I?m moving my collection and found this board amongst some others. > > > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0m4VYF4tIU5aXJMSHBwUDJMUWM > > > > > Cheers, > > Chris > > It's a Compugraphics board of some sort, I think. Couple of AD or DAs, > etc. I know nothing about these, just recognised the logo. > > > Cheers - Mike > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 22:57:08 -0700 > From: Eric Smith > To: elson at pico-systems.com, "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Could somebody please help me identify this board? > Message-ID: > syKRd13cpTtbU0ZC3d41dAFaw=hQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > > It appears to be an extended-length Multibus II board with 2 8-bit DACs on > > it. Output for an XY scope? > > > > Extended-length Multibus. Definitely not Multibus II, which uses Eurocard > 6Ux220 form factor with two 96-pin DIN 41612 connectors. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 02:34:26 -0500 > From: Evan Koblentz > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Have lunch with Lee Felsenstein > Message-ID: <42f12b6a-d3ab-8739-2d83-0f7f420145eb at snarc.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Only 12 hours left to bid on lunch with legendary computer engineer Lee > Felsenstein! This benefits Vintage Computer Federation, a 501(c)3 > non-profit devoted to enabling collectors, growing the hobby, and > spreading awareness of computer history. Please see > https://www.charitybuzz.com/catalog_items/lunch-for-3-with-personal- > computing-social-media-icon-1198500. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 16:10:16 +0000 > From: Tom Moss > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Wanted: Terminator for an RL02 > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi All, > > Does anyone have a spare RL02 terminator for sale? > > Regards, > -Tom > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 30, Issue 7 > ************************************* From sumoblitus+cc at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 02:02:42 2016 From: sumoblitus+cc at gmail.com (Obli Viscor) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 09:02:42 +0100 Subject: RT-11 V5 - Patching the monitor for Remote Console Line Message-ID: Hiya guys, Quick question, I can't find what I'm doing wrong. I sysgen'd a XM monitor with Multiterminal Support on RT-11 V5.7: .sh conf RT-11XM (S) V05.07 Booted from DL0:RT11XM 22 bit addressing is on USR is set NOSWAP EXIT is set SWAP KMON is set NOIND RUN is set NOVBGEXE MODE is set NOSJ TT is set NOQUIET ERROR is set ERROR SL is set OFF EDIT is set KEX FORTRAN is set FORTRA KMON nesting depth is 3 CLI is set DCL, CCL, UCL, NO UCF PDP 11/94 Processor 4088KB of memory Floating Point Microcode Extended Instruction Set (EIS) Memory Management Unit 60 Hertz System Clock Device I/O time-out support Multi-terminal support UNIBUS mapping enabled Then from AA-M240E-TC - RT-11 System Generation Guide Section C-4: Assigning a Remote Line as the Console Terminal You can customize your FB, XM, and ZM monitors to allow a terminal connected through a dial-up line to be used as the console terminal. The multiterminal software will answer the line when called (provided appropriate modem hardware is in place) and connect the remote terminal to the system as the console terminal. In this customization, monitr.SYS is the name of the multiterminal monitor file that you wish to modify, and ..CRMT is the value of that symbol from the monitor link map. .RUN SIPP RET *monitr.SYS RET Base? 0 RET Offset? ..CRMT RET Base Offset Old New? 000000 ..CRMT 020000 0 RET 000000 ..CRMT+2 xxxxxx CTRL/Y RET * CTRL/C . So I find from the RT11XM.MAP that .CRMT is offset 144414: .run sipp *RT11XM.SYS Base? 0 Offset? 144414 Base Offset Old New? 000000 144414 020000 0 ?SIPP-E-Exceeds program limit Offset? System Messages Manual states: "Explanation: The location being examined or modified is beyond the end of the program. User Action: SIPP returns with the OFFSET? prompt and does not discard any previous changes. The current open location is not modified." But how can that be as the RT11XM.MAP is coming from the most recent SYSGEN? With kind regards, Obliviscor From tingox at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 07:30:30 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 14:30:30 +0100 Subject: VAX expert 'needed' In-Reply-To: References: <20161207194632.DF97018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hello! On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> So, looking at the list of 'wanted pages' on the Computer History' wiki: >> >> http://gunkies.org/wiki/Special:WantedPages >> >> the top page or so of entries are all about various Vaxen. > > And plenty of entries for terminals and PDP-8 models below that... > >> Is there a volunteer our there to sign up as an editor there (note: >> applications have to be approved, which can take a couple of days, due to >> busyness on the part of the admin) to start writing up VAX content? > > I'm sending off an account request. Where to should one send account requests? There doesn't seem to be a registration page on that wiki. I tried sending an email to Tore a while back (early October) but haven't got a response. (I'm no Vax expert, but there are other pages on that wiki which I know a bit about). -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 8 09:03:31 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 10:03:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX expert 'needed' Message-ID: <20161208150331.74F6918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Torfinn Ingolfsen > Where to should one send account requests? There doesn't seem to be a > registration page on that wiki. Per the note on the main page: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Main_Page on the right hand side, one needs to send email to Tore (toresbe at gmail.com), because they'd had spammer issues. > I tried sending an email to Tore a while back .. but haven't got a > response. He's often very busy - try sending him a reminder. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 8 11:51:25 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 09:51:25 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <269dfc3c-7ef5-0369-1d4a-da70a4dd706d@jwsss.com> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <269dfc3c-7ef5-0369-1d4a-da70a4dd706d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 12/07/2016 11:03 PM, jim stephens wrote: > The Multics version I saw came from a Fortran version taken from a > PDP10. If I'm not mistaken it was directly from the timeshare > system they used in Billerica,Ma where Don Woods worked. After some > massaging it was unleashed on Multics. Most of Honeywell was wiped > out by copies on various machines for quite some time (2 or 3 > months?) before people quit risking getting into trouble to play it > anyway. > > There were two files, the main fortran file, and the table file with > the cave encoding. I suspect anyone who got a copy of the latter, > and read the former wrote a program to print out a very useful cheat > sheet. If you had that, you could solve all of the puzzles from data > in the table, and you only had to worry about the problems associated > with random behavior. > > The PDP-10 source did have a schedule feature to allow the game to > only be played during certain hours, but in the copy we were running > that was bypassed to allow it to run 24 / 7. That sounds right. I also remember the process in the PDP10 version involved saving the entire core image of the game. While I didn't make a cheat sheet from the travel tables, a couple of friends did. ADVENTure turned out to be a huge black hole for employees' time. I never owned up to being the ne'er do well who introduced it--it could have turned into a big obstacle in my career had the facts been known. I loosed the source on the landscape like a bunch of locusts--my name never appeared anywhere in the CDC adaptation. But I never took to the game very much. I've never been one for computer games and wheile Adventure was interesting, I grew disinterested after about a week. I knew people who'd sit at the 6600 operator's console playing Chess 3.0 for hours in the middle of the night, but the idea of playing against a machine held no fascination. That has proved to be the pattern ever since for computer games. When I wrote SIMCGA for the Hercules-Graphics-equipped PC, publishers would send me games to try out. None of them did a thing for me other than make some money. I must have the wrong mindset. Does computer chess hold any interest today? Or is the matter of machine-over-human pretty much a fait accompli? --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Thu Dec 8 11:55:30 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 09:55:30 -0800 Subject: VAX expert 'needed' In-Reply-To: <20161208150331.74F6918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161208150331.74F6918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 7:03 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Torfinn Ingolfsen > > > Where to should one send account requests? There doesn't seem to be a > > registration page on that wiki. > > Per the note on the main page: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Main_Page > > on the right hand side, one needs to send email to Tore (toresbe at gmail.com > ), > because they'd had spammer issues. > > > I tried sending an email to Tore a while back .. but haven't got a > > response. > > He's often very busy - try sending him a reminder. > > Noel > I've emailed him, too. He does travel a lot. I'll be slow in adding content - an upcoming publication, teaching next quarter and a dissertation in process take up most of my time - but I do have a VAX 6000-660. :-) -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From jonelson126 at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 15:17:01 2016 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 15:17:01 -0600 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5849CDCD.9090000@pico-systems.com> On 12/07/2016 10:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 9:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Given that it's extended length anyhow, and thus not compliant with the >> bus spec, it doesn't really matter which side of the board the components >> are on, other than it precludes use in some backplane slots. I may have >> been designed that way to fit in a specific slot in a specific machine. >> > On the other hand, the pin count on the wider edge connector is 100 rather > than 86 so not Multibus. > OK,better eyes solve the puzzle! Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 8 15:30:48 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 16:30:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] Message-ID: <20161208213048.283AD18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rich Alderson > 9-track tapes on the PDP-10 used one of the following encodings: What about 7-track, any idea? I would assume 6 x 6-bit tape frames per 36-bit word, but that's just a guess. Noel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 8 19:08:57 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 01:08:57 +0000 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <20161208213048.283AD18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161208213048.283AD18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Not meaning to throw things to far off but on my NC4000 machine( 16 bit ), I found ByteSwap useful enough that I had it hard wired. I have an old computer that was intended to do FFTs. It has a complete bit order swap, MSB to LSB, instruction. All interesting. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 1:30:48 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] > From: Rich Alderson > 9-track tapes on the PDP-10 used one of the following encodings: What about 7-track, any idea? I would assume 6 x 6-bit tape frames per 36-bit word, but that's just a guess. Noel From mike at fenz.net Thu Dec 8 19:24:05 2016 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 14:24:05 +1300 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? In-Reply-To: <5849CDCD.9090000@pico-systems.com> References: <5849CDCD.9090000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 9/12/2016 10:17 a.m., Jon Elson wrote: > > On 12/07/2016 10:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 9:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >>> Given that it's extended length anyhow, and thus not compliant with the >>> bus spec, it doesn't really matter which side of the board the >>> components >>> are on, other than it precludes use in some backplane slots. I may have >>> been designed that way to fit in a specific slot in a specific machine. >>> >> On the other hand, the pin count on the wider edge connector is 100 >> rather >> than 86 so not Multibus. >> > OK,better eyes solve the puzzle! > > Jon > > Hey, just checking - I think the puzzle has already been solved twice. I mentioned that I was pretty sure it's a Compugraphics board, and someone else said the same thing a few days later, but neither of those posts received any replies. Cheers, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 8 20:53:01 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 18:53:01 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <20161208213048.283AD18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <62001a84-9fd9-ec28-3843-707cd46fdc19@sydex.com> On 12/08/2016 05:08 PM, dwight wrote: > Not meaning to throw things to far off but on my > > NC4000 machine( 16 bit ), I found ByteSwap useful enough that I had it > > hard wired. > > I have an old computer that was intended to do FFTs. It has a > > complete bit order swap, MSB to LSB, instruction. Well, there's the PowerPC "endian" mode (settable in the MSR)--but it's just "sort of"--the little-endian mode simply XORs the lower 3 bits of the address with 111 (i.e. "flips them"). --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 8 22:46:54 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 20:46:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <62001a84-9fd9-ec28-3843-707cd46fdc19@sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Dec 8, 16 06:53:01 pm" Message-ID: <201612090446.uB94kseG10027154@floodgap.com> > > I have an old computer that was intended to do FFTs. It has a > > complete bit order swap, MSB to LSB, instruction. > > Well, there's the PowerPC "endian" mode (settable in the MSR)--but it's > just "sort of"--the little-endian mode simply XORs the lower 3 bits of > the address with 111 (i.e. "flips them"). Or you could use the PowerPC byte-swapped instructions (lwbrx, etc.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Maybe this world is another planet's hell. -- Aldous Huxley ---------------- From RichA at livingcomputers.org Thu Dec 8 14:55:25 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 20:55:25 +0000 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8F9E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 10:43 PM > On 12/07/2016 12:46 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Neither of those is entirely accurate. 9-track tapes on the PDP-10 >> used one of the following encodings: > The last time that I had to deal with PDP-10 tapes, admittedly also 40 > years ago was essentially core-dump format. 5 7-bit characters per > word, with one bit unused; words packed end-to-end; i.e. 9 frames for 2 > PDP 10 words. That sounds more like high density format, if there were 9 frames for 2 words (i.e., 72 bits total). Core dump format would require 10 frames. The 5 characters per word is irrelevant to a discussion of tape, whether 9- or 7-track: That's how ASCII text was represented in memory, on disk, on DECtape, or on any other word-oriented medium. Representing the bits in an ASCII character by the character itself (to make divisions on the tape more clear), this appears diagrammatically as follows: Text: HELLOworld Memory: HHHHHHHEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOO_wwwwwwwooooooorrrrrrrlllllllddddddd_ Core Dump: High Density: SIXBIT: (7 track) HHHHHHHE HHHHHHHE HHHHHH EEEEEELL EEEEEELL HEEEEE LLLLLLLL LLLLLLLL EELLLL LLLLOOOO LLLLOOOO LLLLLL ....OOO_ OOO_wwww LLLLOO wwwwwwwo wwwooooo OOOOO_ oooooorr oorrrrrr wwwwww rrrrrlll rlllllll wooooo lllldddd ddddddd_ oorrrr ....ddd_ rrrlll lllldd ddddd_ where _ represents the unused bit 35 in the word and . represents the don't-care bits inserted by the tape controller/formatter for core dump. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at livingcomputers.org Thu Dec 8 15:07:47 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 21:07:47 +0000 Subject: EMACS folly In-Reply-To: <8660mvhqp3.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A42@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8660mvhqp3.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8FBD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Hi, Lars, I actually met someone once who tried to implement an interpreter for TECO code in Emacs Lisp, in order to load EMACS.:EJ and run it, just for the hack value. I don't know whether he ever completed the project. :-) We have a VAX-11/780-5 (a 780 field upgraded to a 785) running VMS 7.3. It's hard to get to because some botnet is constantly pounding on it with 10 connections per second, trying to break in. It makes the LOGIN program time out on passwords. If you would like to try bringing those up, use the account request form on our web site and send me a note to let me know to look for the request. I have not been opening new accounts because of the frustration inherent in trying to log in. I think I'm remembering the name correctly: Pete Siemsen wrote a new PDP-11 TECO back in the late 1980s which he presented at the DECUS Fall Symposia in Anaheim (so 1988, I think). After his talk, a couple of us suggested that he try adding the MIT TECO features to his program, and he said he'd give it a try. I don't know what ever came of that. Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 Cell: (206) 465-2916 Desk: (206) 342-2239 http://www.LivingComputers.org/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lars Brinkhoff Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 10:37 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: EMACS folly Rich Alderson wrote: > Well, sure, if you load the suckit.el library, but that's optional. It's > faster if you load the compiled suckit.elc instead. > > I prefer the compiled TECO variant BITEME.:EJ, of course! Loaded into GNU Emacs? ;-) Hey, do you have any VAXen over there? How about getting an early Emacs running on those? I turned the Internet inside out to find Gosling Emacs, BTL Emacs, and GNU Emacs 15 and 17, and and it would be a shame if the source code was just sitting idle. Or how about TECO EMACS? Only not on the PDP family you'd expect, but the 16-bit flavor. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 00:25:32 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 22:25:32 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <201612090446.uB94kseG10027154@floodgap.com> References: <201612090446.uB94kseG10027154@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 12/08/2016 08:46 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I have an old computer that was intended to do FFTs. It has a >>> complete bit order swap, MSB to LSB, instruction. >> >> Well, there's the PowerPC "endian" mode (settable in the MSR)--but >> it's just "sort of"--the little-endian mode simply XORs the lower 3 >> bits of the address with 111 (i.e. "flips them"). > > Or you could use the PowerPC byte-swapped instructions (lwbrx, etc.) Forgot to mention the ARM CPUs/MCUs. Supports both, for people who can't make up their mind. --Chuck From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 00:48:05 2016 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 22:48:05 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <269dfc3c-7ef5-0369-1d4a-da70a4dd706d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/07/2016 11:03 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > > I must have the wrong mindset. Does computer chess hold any interest > today? Or is the matter of machine-over-human pretty much a fait accompli? > > --Chuck > > I'll run thru some moves with any new chess program I find. I'm so rusty and try such oddball moves in messing with them that I lose too much of the time. I first had a copy of Sargon for the Apple 2 eons ago, and it was impressive for the time. Also useful for doing study of positions and the like too. I really like Adventure and got totally geeked out meeting Don Woods @ VCF West (thanks guys who put on VCF West again) Thanks Jim From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 00:49:07 2016 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 22:49:07 -0800 Subject: AT IBM Industrial's for sale (Ebay warning) Message-ID: I have contact with a motivated seller who has a huge bunch of IBM Industrial systems to sell. They are Model 7587, and were used on the Kansas Turnpike to run printers and the like (maybe other stuff). he has about 50 of the things and has them listed for $15 bucks, but is motivated to sell any / all. If anyone wants a nice AT system with 4 slots and power supply this would be one to get. It has a single board computer type system card in it, so I suspect the backplane is passive. I have a friend working on the full documentation, as he did sell them a long time ago. He said they were made for IBM by a company which also sold a lot of the stuff, Par (sp?) Contact me and I'll put you in direct contact with Ron. He is moving and has to get rid of them or trash them. I don't have room for them all or I'd store them and parcel them out of my warehouse. Ebay listing below has the information about them, but we can get them direct. If anyone has any ideas on the shipping charges, Ebay is screwing him horribly and help would be appreciated to get them shipped at a better rate. Thanks Jim http://www.ebay.com/itm/262750011708 From lars at nocrew.org Fri Dec 9 01:24:00 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 08:24:00 +0100 Subject: EMACS folly In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8FBD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> (Rich Alderson's message of "Thu, 8 Dec 2016 21:07:47 +0000") References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A42@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8660mvhqp3.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8FBD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <86a8c5efan.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Rich Alderson wrote: > > Hey, do you have any VAXen over there? How about getting an early > > Emacs running on those? > > We have a VAX-11/780-5 (a 780 field upgraded to a 785) running VMS I'll let someone else do the VMS stuff. DECUSLIB has a copy of GNU Emacs 15, possibly the very first public release. Some day, if a free time slot appears, I'd like to try to get the early Unix Emacsen running in their natural Berkeley habitat. I'd probably run a VAX emulator for that. > > Or how about TECO EMACS? Only not on the PDP family you'd expect, > > but the 16-bit flavor. > > Pete Siemsen wrote a new PDP-11 TECO [...] a couple of us suggested > that he try adding the MIT TECO features to his program, and he said > he'd give it a try. I was hinting a the very real EMACS-11 by Fred Fish. Here's a net.sources post from 1984, and a tarball from Pete Siemsen: https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/qBRfbEjrGV8/3t35z8XYq8IJ http://ftp.funet.fi/pub/unix/editors/teco/emacs11.tar.Z Again, I'd love to see this running, but I'm starved for time right now. (Aren't we all?) From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Dec 9 01:35:15 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 23:35:15 -0800 Subject: AT IBM Industrial's for sale (Ebay warning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011401d251ee$cc8043b0$6580cb10$@net> > I have contact with a motivated seller who has a huge bunch of IBM > Industrial systems to sell. They are Model 7587, and were used on the > Kansas Turnpike to run printers and the like (maybe other stuff). Just to clarify these are much later machines then the Industrial AT type - which can be good or bad depending on your point of view ;). These are PCI/ISA systems so could make a great tweener. Not sure how good they would be for everyday use as all of my other industrial IBMs (AT class and PS/2 class) have screaming loud fans! Just my two worthless cents ;) -Ali From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 01:49:07 2016 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 23:49:07 -0800 Subject: AT IBM Industrial's for sale (Ebay warning) In-Reply-To: <011401d251ee$cc8043b0$6580cb10$@net> References: <011401d251ee$cc8043b0$6580cb10$@net> Message-ID: I've not laid hands on any yet, I ordered up 5 for stock. I do know from the friend I mentioned that the bus is a bit odd, but only that it is faster in some timing than regular AT. But regular ISA cards did fit. These were in toll booths running printers, so may have been loud, no data on that. He does have the printers, and at one time the tickets were about the size of Hollerith cards, but later they were reduced in size. The tickets were issued and timestamped, and at the time you exited, you were charged for mileage, but they also did a measure of how fast you got thru the mileage, and if it was too small, you got a ticket. But there was some sort of machine coding / readable on it. I think my friend said the line was part of what IBM called (calls) their Data collection systems. One of the google hits with the 7587 mentioned: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-23778.html I located the following on the 7587 specifically, and the other URL is related to all IBM industrials. http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/ic_files/ref7587.html All Industrials: http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/ic_files/refdisk_index.html If someone has any other archived info, would be interesting to see if it is somewhere that it will survive. thanks Jim On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 11:35 PM, Ali wrote: > > > I have contact with a motivated seller who has a huge bunch of IBM > > Industrial systems to sell. They are Model 7587, and were used on the > > Kansas Turnpike to run printers and the like (maybe other stuff). > > Just to clarify these are much later machines then the Industrial AT type > - which can be good or bad depending on your point of view ;). These are > PCI/ISA systems so could make a great tweener. Not sure how good they would > be for everyday use as all of my other industrial IBMs (AT class and PS/2 > class) have screaming loud fans! > > Just my two worthless cents ;) > > -Ali > > From lars at nocrew.org Fri Dec 9 01:49:36 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 08:49:36 +0100 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8F9E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> (Rich Alderson's message of "Thu, 8 Dec 2016 20:55:25 +0000") References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8F9E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <864m2dee3z.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Rich Alderson writes: > The 5 characters per word is irrelevant to a discussion of tape, whether > 9- or 7-track: That's how ASCII text was represented in memory, on disk, > on DECtape, or on any other word-oriented medium. Representing the bits > in an ASCII character by the character itself (to make divisions on the > tape more clear), this appears diagrammatically as follows: > > Text: HELLOworld > > Memory: > HHHHHHHEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOO_wwwwwwwooooooorrrrrrrlllllllddddddd_ > > Core Dump: High Density: SIXBIT: (7 track) > HHHHHHHE HHHHHHHE HHHHHH > EEEEEELL EEEEEELL HEEEEE > LLLLLLLL LLLLLLLL EELLLL > LLLLOOOO LLLLOOOO LLLLLL > ....OOO_ OOO_wwww LLLLOO > wwwwwwwo wwwooooo OOOOO_ > oooooorr oorrrrrr wwwwww > rrrrrlll rlllllll wooooo > lllldddd ddddddd_ oorrrr > ....ddd_ rrrlll > lllldd > ddddd_ Let's add ANSI-ASCII: .HHHHHHH .EEEEEEE .LLLLLLL .LLLLLLL _OOOOOOO .wwwwwww .ooooooo .rrrrrrr .lllllll _ddddddd The nice property with this format is that ASCII text in 36-bit words comes out as ASCII text in octets, while also preserving binary 36-bit data. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Dec 9 02:28:13 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 00:28:13 -0800 Subject: AT IBM Industrial's for sale (Ebay warning) In-Reply-To: References: <011401d251ee$cc8043b0$6580cb10$@net> Message-ID: <011601d251f6$30f653a0$92e2fae0$@net> > I located the following on the 7587 specifically, and the other URL is > related to all IBM industrials. > > http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/ic_files/ref7587.html > > All Industrials: > http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/ic_files/refdisk_index.html Well not all the industrial machines. The IBM industrial series started with the 553x machines (XT class) then the 753x machines (AT class) and then the 75xx series of machines (PS/2 class w/ MCA, 486 chips and upwards into Pentiums and PCI). I have a number of 7532s (basically a rack mount 5170 w/ beefed up ventilation) and a 7546 (486 PS/2 MCA). However, I have been/am still looking for a 7531 (tower version of the 7532). I had a line on one a few years back but the guy disappeared after his first email to me... -Ali From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 02:52:55 2016 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 00:52:55 -0800 Subject: hate when I run out of interrupts and exceptions Message-ID: And don't have any spares on the shelf. The title on this just was funny, maybe it's time to crash, since it's late. VINTAGE-DEC-DIGITAL-Empty-case-of-the-VAX-VMS-exceptions-interrupts-CASE-ONLY-/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/291941009551 (posted for levity, no warning on this posting) From pye at mactec.com.au Fri Dec 9 03:54:06 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:54:06 +1000 Subject: Could somebody please help me identify this board? In-Reply-To: References: <5849CDCD.9090000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >> > Hey, just checking - I think the puzzle has already been solved twice. I mentioned that I was pretty sure it's a Compugraphics board, and someone else said the same thing a few days later, but neither of those posts received any replies. > > > Cheers, > > Mike > I guessing that is correct, but still have no idea what system it was intended for. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 9 09:02:00 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 10:02:00 -0500 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612090446.uB94kseG10027154@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 9, 2016, at 1:25 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12/08/2016 08:46 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> I have an old computer that was intended to do FFTs. It has a >>>> complete bit order swap, MSB to LSB, instruction. >>> >>> Well, there's the PowerPC "endian" mode (settable in the MSR)--but >>> it's just "sort of"--the little-endian mode simply XORs the lower 3 >>> bits of the address with 111 (i.e. "flips them"). >> >> Or you could use the PowerPC byte-swapped instructions (lwbrx, etc.) > > Forgot to mention the ARM CPUs/MCUs. Supports both, for people who > can't make up their mind. Rather than "can't make up their mind", a good reason to have selectable endian processors is that the best choice may depend on the application. So for embedded systems in particular, it's good to be able to pick which you want. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 9 09:28:15 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:28:15 +0000 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <269dfc3c-7ef5-0369-1d4a-da70a4dd706d@jwsss.com> , Message-ID: Chuck I was just trying to squeeze Peter Jennings code for the KIM-1 into a single 1K worth of EPROM that would self load. There was enough space if I didn't include the opening moves. I wanted to use the empty space in my KIM-1 debug board EPROM. Some of the test use so little space. I finally split it into two blocks. So once one gets their KIM-1 working again, they can play MicroChess. I've not tried to play it yet. I have to pull out my chess board. So, some interest in Chess playing. I have my KIM-1 working on my prototype 6532 to 6530 adapter. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:48:05 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/07/2016 11:03 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > > I must have the wrong mindset. Does computer chess hold any interest > today? Or is the matter of machine-over-human pretty much a fait accompli? > > --Chuck > > I'll run thru some moves with any new chess program I find. I'm so rusty and try such oddball moves in messing with them that I lose too much of the time. I first had a copy of Sargon for the Apple 2 eons ago, and it was impressive for the time. Also useful for doing study of positions and the like too. I really like Adventure and got totally geeked out meeting Don Woods @ VCF West (thanks guys who put on VCF West again) Thanks Jim From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Dec 9 10:24:03 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 11:24:03 -0500 Subject: Microchess, Nanochess, etc - Re: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <269dfc3c-7ef5-0369-1d4a-da70a4dd706d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <0c7194de-b950-ccde-24fd-32a5b2e5757a@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-12-09 10:28 AM, dwight wrote: > Chuck > > I was just trying to squeeze Peter Jennings code for the KIM-1 into a single > > 1K worth of EPROM that would self load. There was enough space if I didn't > > include the opening moves. I wanted to use the empty space in my KIM-1 debug board EPROM. Some of the test use so little space. I finally split it into > > two blocks. So once one gets their KIM-1 working again, they can play MicroChess. > > I've not tried to play it yet. I have to pull out my chess board. > > So, some interest in Chess playing. I have my KIM-1 working on my prototype > > 6532 to 6530 adapter. > > Dwight If you're into tiny chess programs, ?scar Toledo G. (@nanochess) has written a few, including a 1K JavaScript chess, and a 481 byte x86 version. http://nanochess.org/chess.html --Toby > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens > Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:48:05 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] > > On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 12/07/2016 11:03 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> >> >> >> I must have the wrong mindset. Does computer chess hold any interest >> today? Or is the matter of machine-over-human pretty much a fait accompli? >> >> --Chuck >> >> > I'll run thru some moves with any new chess program I find. I'm so rusty > and try such oddball moves in messing with them that I lose too much of the > time. > > I first had a copy of Sargon for the Apple 2 eons ago, and it was > impressive for the time. Also useful for doing study of positions and the > like too. > > I really like Adventure and got totally geeked out meeting Don Woods @ VCF > West (thanks guys who put on VCF West again) > Thanks > Jim > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 9 11:06:39 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 12:06:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: M8728 MK11 memory board info? Message-ID: <20161209170639.E97A518C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, does anyone know of any documentation (especially engineering drawings) for the M8728, which is the 256KB board for the MK11 (originally), also later useable in the VAX-11/750 and VAX-11/730? The M8728 and M8750 are in fact the same PCB, with different DRAMs (16K or 64K) and different jumper configurations, and since M8750 prints are extant, most of the M8728 is documented, but the M8728 also has some discrete components that the M8750 lacks (I think to produce voltages used by the earlier DRAMs that the later ones don't). Yes, I could work this all out by tracing leads, but I'd rather not! I have produced a table of all the jumper differences, etc and will be creating a page to document all this, but actual documentation for the M8728 would be helpful. Noel PS: Does anyone know the formal names for the M8728? The 64KB board, the M7984, is the MS11-K, but I don't know the one for the larger one (if it was ever assigned). The M7850 seems to be called the MS750/MS730 (per the prints). From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 9 11:56:14 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 09:56:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: hate when I run out of interrupts and exceptions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Dec 2016, jim stephens wrote: > And don't have any spares on the shelf. The title on this just was funny, > maybe it's time to crash, since it's late. > VINTAGE-DEC-DIGITAL-Empty-case-of-the-VAX-VMS-exceptions-interrupts-CASE-ONLY-/ > http://www.ebay.com/itm/291941009551 > (posted for levity, no warning on this posting) Thank you If I were to buy the case, where can I get interrupts and exceptions in bulk to refill it with? Can it be done without a special tool, or do I need an exception handler? From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 12:05:37 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 10:05:37 -0800 Subject: hate when I run out of interrupts and exceptions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 9 Dec 2016, jim stephens wrote: > >> And don't have any spares on the shelf. The title on this just was funny, >> maybe it's time to crash, since it's late. >> VINTAGE-DEC-DIGITAL-Empty-case-of-the-VAX-VMS-exceptions- >> interrupts-CASE-ONLY-/ >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/291941009551 >> (posted for levity, no warning on this posting) >> > > Thank you > If I were to buy the case, where can I get interrupts and exceptions in > bulk to refill it with? Can it be done without a special tool, or do I > need an exception handler? > > > Be sure to get NOS; the imported replacements have the wrong bus threshold voltages. -- Charles From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 12:22:49 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 13:22:49 -0500 Subject: IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet Message-ID: IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet from Nov 1968 http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=659 Bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 9 12:40:45 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 13:40:45 -0500 Subject: IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <455FFEBC-372C-4461-AB6B-AE5225D6B1A6@comcast.net> > On Dec 9, 2016, at 1:22 PM, william degnan wrote: > > IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet from Nov 1968 > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=659 Nice. The caption is odd; it claims that "... instruction set was compatible with the /30 through /91 models" when the pamphlet itself makes it quite clear that this is not so (no SS instructions). It's curious that the emulation feature, which adds software emulation of those instructions, isn't mentioned, and in fact I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere. paul From phil at ultimate.com Fri Dec 9 12:43:50 2016 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 13:43:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201612091843.uB9IhoG3022219@ultimate.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > There are also Two-Word Global Byte Pointers (which I've never seen > abbreviated) which carry the standard "any size byte at any position" Maybe they were just Global Byte Pointers? OWG's were a late addition. I was a member of the FORTRAN-10/20 v10 project to make it generate/run code in extended addressing... It's tempting to look at the compiler and FOROTS to see what terms we used a the time... > Neither of those is entirely accurate. 9-track tapes on the PDP-10 used > one of the following encodings: 8-bit characters became more important near the end of PDP-10 software development. ISTR TOPS-10 getting new 8-bit I/O modes, but I have a vague recollection that translation between 36-bit words and mag tape frames was handled by the "tape formatter" hardware, which means that writing two words with 8 bit bytes in way that was easily legible on 8-bit byte oriented hardware ("high density mode" was only "legible" for the even words). phil From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 12:50:50 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 10:50:50 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612090446.uB94kseG10027154@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 12/09/2016 07:02 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Rather than "can't make up their mind", a good reason to have > selectable endian processors is that the best choice may depend on > the application. So for embedded systems in particular, it's good to > be able to pick which you want. My quip was an attempt at levity. One interesting aspect of the later ARM (e.g. Cortex M3) are the "reverse" instructions: REV reverses the byte order in a 32-bit words. Thus, ABCD becomes DCBA. REV16 reverses the byte order in each halfword of a 32 bit word, ABCD becomes BADC. REVSH reverses the byte order in the low-order halfword and sign extends to 32 bits. Thus ABCD becomes SSDC (with S symbolizing the extended sign bit) RBIT reverses the bit order in a 32 bit word. So lots of choices for those who feel that variety is the spice of life. --Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Dec 9 13:05:45 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 20:05:45 +0100 Subject: hate when I run out of interrupts and exceptions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161209190544.GX2578@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Dec 09, 2016 at 09:56:14AM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 9 Dec 2016, jim stephens wrote: > >And don't have any spares on the shelf. The title on this just was funny, > >maybe it's time to crash, since it's late. > >VINTAGE-DEC-DIGITAL-Empty-case-of-the-VAX-VMS-exceptions-interrupts-CASE-ONLY-/ > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/291941009551 > >(posted for levity, no warning on this posting) > > Thank you > If I were to buy the case, where can I get interrupts and exceptions in bulk > to refill it with? Can it be done without a special tool, or do I need an > exception handler? > > > I'm sure I've seen it in a Lucas catalog next to these: http://w0nqx.blogspot.se/2016/01/the-majic-of-smke.html /P From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 13:56:50 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 14:56:50 -0500 Subject: IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet In-Reply-To: <455FFEBC-372C-4461-AB6B-AE5225D6B1A6@comcast.net> References: <455FFEBC-372C-4461-AB6B-AE5225D6B1A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Dec 9, 2016, at 1:22 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > > IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet from Nov 1968 > > > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=659 > > Nice. The caption is odd; it claims that "... instruction set was > compatible with the /30 through /91 models" when the pamphlet itself makes > it quite clear that this is not so (no SS instructions). > > It's curious that the emulation feature, which adds software emulation of > those instructions, isn't mentioned, and in fact I haven't seen it > mentioned anywhere. > > paul > > > Paul, You're right, the brochure says only through the /75, my error. I fixed the page. I should have written programs written for the Model 44 will be compatible with the System/360 Model 30 through 91, provided the configurations are comparable and the programs and not time dependent. Bill From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Dec 9 13:59:22 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 14:59:22 -0500 Subject: IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet Message-ID: yes this is mentioned in the pamphlet... Ed# In a message dated 12/9/2016 12:57:01 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, billdegnan at gmail.com writes: > It's curious that the emulation feature, which adds software emulation of > those instructions, isn't mentioned, and in fact I haven't seen it > mentioned anywhere. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 9 14:07:38 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:07:38 -0500 Subject: IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet In-Reply-To: References: <455FFEBC-372C-4461-AB6B-AE5225D6B1A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 9, 2016, at 2:56 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>> On Dec 9, 2016, at 1:22 PM, william degnan wrote: >>> >>> IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet from Nov 1968 >>> >>> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=659 >> >> Nice. The caption is odd; it claims that "... instruction set was >> compatible with the /30 through /91 models" when the pamphlet itself makes >> it quite clear that this is not so (no SS instructions). >> >> It's curious that the emulation feature, which adds software emulation of >> those instructions, isn't mentioned, and in fact I haven't seen it >> mentioned anywhere. >> >> paul >> >> >> > Paul, > You're right, the brochure says only through the /75, my error. I fixed > the page. > > I should have written programs written for the Model 44 will be compatible > with the System/360 Model 30 through 91, provided the configurations are > comparable and the programs and not time dependent. That's true, but the wording implies that the converse holds (360/75 programs will run on 360/44) which is usually not true. "Compatible subset of the ... models" would be clearer. paul From jonelson126 at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 14:15:31 2016 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 14:15:31 -0600 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <20161208213048.283AD18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <584B10E3.40605@pico-systems.com> On 12/08/2016 07:08 PM, dwight wrote: > Not meaning to throw things to far off but on my > > NC4000 machine( 16 bit ), I found ByteSwap useful enough that I had it > > hard wired. > > I have an old computer that was intended to do FFTs. It has a > > complete bit order swap, MSB to LSB, instruction. > > Yup, this is to implement the "butterfly" mirroring of the addresses for the FFT. Jon From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 14:39:07 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:39:07 -0500 Subject: IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet In-Reply-To: References: <455FFEBC-372C-4461-AB6B-AE5225D6B1A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Dec 9, 2016, at 2:56 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Paul Koning > wrote: > > > >> > >>> On Dec 9, 2016, at 1:22 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >>> > >>> IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet from Nov 1968 > >>> > >>> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=659 > >> > >> Nice. The caption is odd; it claims that "... instruction set was > >> compatible with the /30 through /91 models" when the pamphlet itself > makes > >> it quite clear that this is not so (no SS instructions). > >> > >> It's curious that the emulation feature, which adds software emulation > of > >> those instructions, isn't mentioned, and in fact I haven't seen it > >> mentioned anywhere. > >> > >> paul > >> > >> > >> > > Paul, > > You're right, the brochure says only through the /75, my error. I fixed > > the page. > > > > I should have written programs written for the Model 44 will be > compatible > > with the System/360 Model 30 through 91, provided the configurations are > > comparable and the programs and not time dependent. > > That's true, but the wording implies that the converse holds (360/75 > programs will run on 360/44) which is usually not true. "Compatible subset > of the ... models" would be clearer. > > paul > > > Just like any older / newer computer that is in principle compatible, but practically not really. From RichA at livingcomputers.org Fri Dec 9 13:47:27 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:47:27 +0000 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <201612091843.uB9IhoG3022219@ultimate.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201612091843.uB9IhoG3022219@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE94E2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Phil Budne Sent: Friday, December 09, 2016 10:44 AM > Rich Alderson wrote: >> There are also Two-Word Global Byte Pointers (which I've never seen >> abbreviated) which carry the standard "any size byte at any position" > Maybe they were just Global Byte Pointers? OWG's were a late > addition. I was a member of the FORTRAN-10/20 v10 project to make it > generate/run code in extended addressing... It's tempting to look at > the compiler and FOROTS to see what terms we used a the time... Both One-Word and Two-Word Global Byte Pointers were added at the same time as extended addressing, according to the HRM. Simple "Global Byte Pointer" would have been inherently ambiguous. OWGBPs were a way not to increase the memory footprint of a program when moving it into a non-zero section,[1] at the expense of some microcode. In theory, a binary could be patched for use in a non-zero section without a recompile, as long as it was using 6-, 7-, 8-, 9-, or 18-bit bytes. >> Neither of those is entirely accurate. 9-track tapes on the PDP-10 used >> one of the following encodings: > 8-bit characters became more important near the end of PDP-10 software > development. ISTR TOPS-10 getting new 8-bit I/O modes, but I have a > vague recollection that translation between 36-bit words and mag tape > frames was handled by the "tape formatter" hardware, which means that > writing two words with 8 bit bytes in way that was easily legible on > 8-bit byte oriented hardware ("high density mode" was only "legible" > for the even words). Yes, all the translations are handled in the formatter, which is part of the tape controller. To continue the example, in Industry-Compatible format, where the ASCII characters have been moved into 8-bit bytes in 36-bt words, on 9-track tape we have "HELLOworld" as _HHHHHHH _EEEEEEE _LLLLLLL _LLLLLLL _OOOOOOO _wwwwwww _ooooooo _rrrrrrr _lllllll _ddddddd In memory, this takes 3 words: _HHHHHHH_EEEEEEE_LLLLLLL_LLLLLLL.... _OOOOOOO_wwwwwww_ooooooo_rrrrrrr.... _lllllll_ddddddd________________.... Rich [1] For non-PDP10 programmers: The original architecture of the PDP-6 and PDP-10 used an 18-bit (256KW) address space. The KI-10 processor added a 22-bit pager and a concept of sections to the hardware. When the address space was expanded to 30 bits (1MW) on the KL-10 processor (in anticipation of the KC-10 a/k/a "Jupiter"), it was done by retaining 18-bit local addressing and adding a 12-bit section number to provide global addresses. Section 0 is special, working like the older 256KW memory space; non-zero sections can reference all of memory, with an 18-bit address in a non-zero section being section local and a 30-bit address referencing anything except section 0. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 9 16:12:10 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 22:12:10 +0000 Subject: VAX expert 'needed' In-Reply-To: <20161207194632.DF97018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161207194632.DF97018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <584B2C3A.2050003@ntlworld.com> On 07/12/16 19:46, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Is there a volunteer our there to sign up as an editor there (note: > applications have to be approved, which can take a couple of days, due to > busyness on the part of the admin) to start writing up VAX content? > I have a bunch of content that I've collected over the years. I've applied for an account. Once I have that I'll see about turning it from whatever free-from text format I used years ago into wiki-script and then uploading it. It won't be exciting, but it will be data (sometimes with references too). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From steven at malikoff.com Fri Dec 9 17:46:15 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 09:46:15 +1000 Subject: IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet In-Reply-To: References: <455FFEBC-372C-4461-AB6B-AE5225D6B1A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: Bill said that Paul said: > On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> > On Dec 9, 2016, at 1:22 PM, william degnan wrote: >> > >> > IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet from Nov 1968 >> > >> > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=659 >> >> Nice. The caption is odd; it claims that "... instruction set was >> compatible with the /30 through /91 models" when the pamphlet itself makes >> it quite clear that this is not so (no SS instructions). >> >> It's curious that the emulation feature, which adds software emulation of >> those instructions, isn't mentioned, and in fact I haven't seen it >> mentioned anywhere. >> >> paul >> >> >> > Paul, > You're right, the brochure says only through the /75, my error. I fixed > the page. > > I should have written programs written for the Model 44 will be compatible > with the System/360 Model 30 through 91, provided the configurations are > comparable and the programs and not time dependent. > > Bill Thank you for the interesting brochure Bill, as far as I know the Model 44 was a bit of an odd duck in having a modified instruction set. I have something relevant of my own to contribute: My dad's 360 Reference Card with his scribbled-on annotations for the Model 44 ie, 2044 CPU: http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/ibm/IBM_System_360_Reference_Card_with_Model44_2044_CPU_annotations_by_Alec_Malikoff.pdf The annotations are on pages 1, 2, 5 and 6. I think at least one of the universities here in Oz had a Model 44, I guess he had to service it, but mainly he was a Model 40 CE. Steve. From chd at chdickman.com Fri Dec 9 17:59:42 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 18:59:42 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 OS/8 versions Message-ID: Has anyone ever described the OS/8 version history? I have some DECtapes that are V3D and I have found some RX01 images from the V3D Combined Kit. The programs that are common to both are different versions, so V3D changed over time. Then there were the DECmates and there were changes made to support them. I see V4 referenced. There are also some sources online, but it isn't clear how they correspond to the usable device images. I have been looking at these online resources mostly, but I have found others. http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8 http://www.pdp8.net/ Are there other better resources? Are there source distributions in the original state for example? >From what I have seen, the combined kit has the best support for the PDP-8/e and its devices. That's the hardware I have and so that is what I am concentrating on. Hoping to trigger some conversation. -chuck From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Dec 9 18:13:41 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 16:13:41 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 OS/8 versions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94985AE1E0554557A9695B273C56B942@Vincew7> From: Charles Dickman: Friday, December 09, 2016 3:59 PM > I have some DECtapes that are V3D and I have found some RX01 images > from the V3D Combined Kit. The programs that are common to both are > different versions, so V3D changed over time. I know that .SV format saves some cruft along with the binary, so .SV files can compare different even though they are effectively the same. (I have some Perl code somewhere that will diff them in a way that helps identify this problem. What happens is that the differences are all in the "tails" where .BN format provides granularity not available in .SV format.) It is also possible to save a program after it's been run a few times, which saves different values for the return addresses at the top of the subroutines and such. Vince From jonelson126 at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 18:15:17 2016 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 18:15:17 -0600 Subject: IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet In-Reply-To: References: <455FFEBC-372C-4461-AB6B-AE5225D6B1A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <584B4915.7020103@pico-systems.com> On 12/09/2016 05:46 PM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > > Thank you for the interesting brochure Bill, as far as I know the Model 44 was > a bit of an odd duck in having a modified instruction set. > > The model 44 was a non-microcoded machine, and the lowest model with full 32-bit data paths. (Model 30 was 8 bit!!, model 40 was 16 bits). The /44 was aimed at scientific computing and process control applications. Yes, certainly an odd duck. It had some other oddities, such as optional integrated files (disk drives installed internal to the CPU cabinet) and direct I/O support (basically parallel input and output registers). The /44 lacked all character and decimal instructions, but the floating point performance was close to (or in some cases can even exceed) the 360/50 performance. Jon From chd at chdickman.com Fri Dec 9 18:31:52 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:31:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 OS/8 versions In-Reply-To: <94985AE1E0554557A9695B273C56B942@Vincew7> References: <94985AE1E0554557A9695B273C56B942@Vincew7> Message-ID: I am aware of some of that. I was actually comparing using the information in the combined kit release notes. It has information about how to determine the version of the included programs. Some have a command to do it, some have an address that needs to be examined with ODT. With OS/8, the notion of a config files changes. You make changes and save them in the binary of the command, so a command binary can change. You learn this after doing a build with R BUILD and then realizing that you can't save your changes. I haven't figured out if there is a way to load a system head into BUILD. -chuck On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Charles Dickman: Friday, December 09, 2016 3:59 PM >> >> I have some DECtapes that are V3D and I have found some RX01 images >> from the V3D Combined Kit. The programs that are common to both are >> different versions, so V3D changed over time. > > > I know that .SV format saves some cruft along with the binary, so .SV files > can compare different even though they are effectively the same. > (I have some Perl code somewhere that will diff them in a way that helps > identify this problem. What happens is that the differences are all in the > "tails" where .BN format provides granularity not available in .SV format.) > > It is also possible to save a program after it's been run a few times, which > saves different values for the return addresses at the top of the > subroutines and such. > > Vince From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 18:36:50 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 20:36:50 -0400 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <347e722e-93e3-41e9-f868-79d07b4dea66@gmail.com> Some time ago there was a discussion about the elusive 98228A ROM that supports both the 9885 and 9895 diskette drive units on a 9825T, well good news! A fellow MoHPC member David Ramsey very kindly loaned me his, and with a little careful reading of the service manual along with studying Tony Duell's schematic I got a good idea of how it work, and observing the memory bus using a logic analyzer confirmed how it worked. I was able to dump the ROM using GPIO cards in a 9920 to simulate the memory bus, I actually went on and dumped all the ROMs in the 9825T as well as a couple other I had. I have successfully created a clone of the ROM and have even fit it into a a ROM shell. I am going to try creating a PCB for it too, what I have now is just hand wired, but it works. In the end the ROM module did not turn out to be very complicated. I am just in the process of documenting my project and will release a package soon with full documentation and most importantly the ROM image. I plan to donate my package along with all of my ROM images to hpmuseum.net. Paul. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 9 19:25:48 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 20:25:48 -0500 Subject: IBM System/360 Model 44 Pamphlet In-Reply-To: References: <455FFEBC-372C-4461-AB6B-AE5225D6B1A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 9, 2016, at 3:39 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>> ... >> >> That's true, but the wording implies that the converse holds (360/75 >> programs will run on 360/44) which is usually not true. "Compatible subset >> of the ... models" would be clearer. >> > Just like any older / newer computer that is in principle compatible, but > practically not really. Not quite. In the case of the 360/44, it wasn't compatible in principle either, not even close and quite intentionally. paul From phil at ultimate.com Fri Dec 9 20:36:49 2016 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 21:36:49 -0500 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE94E2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201612091843.uB9IhoG3022219@ultimate.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE94E2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201612100236.uBA2anwG029842@ultimate.com> > Both One-Word and Two-Word Global Byte Pointers were added at the same > time as extended addressing, according to the HRM. Simple "Global Byte > Pointer" would have been inherently ambiguous. OWG's were added to the KL ucode later: ;251 ADD CODE FOR ONE WORD GLOBAL BYTE POINTERS. ; TOOK OUT EDITS 243 AND 250 TO GET ENOUGH SPACE IN CRAM ; FOR THIS EDIT. OWGBP WITH EXTEND INSTRUCTIONS WILL NOT ; RETURN A OWGBP. THEY WILL RETURN A TWO WORD GLOBAL BP. I can't tell off hand if there was a TOPS-20 release that supported extended addressing earlier than UCODE version 251. Hey! here's a ref to TWG's in the UCODE history: ;336 9 Aug 83--Back off 330 for a bit, since TOPS-10 7.02 must be tested ; and OWGs in section 0 fail for string instructions (they get converted ; to TWGs, which are illegal in section 0). For now, we will maintain ; both sources. Maybe I'm conflating things with the legalization of OWGs in section zero (the low 256KW of address space that behaved like a non-extended machine) > The KI-10 processor added > a 22-bit pager and a concept of sections to the hardware. Are you sure? KI (aka TOPS-10) paging may have extended the physical address space, but not the virtual address space (still limited to 18 bits). In the end TOPS-10 used "KL" paging: DECnet had to live in a non-zero section in the monitor (in 7.02?), and user-mode extended address was finally added later. From ethan at 757.org Fri Dec 9 21:48:54 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 22:48:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: SGI Indigo, WTB Power supply? Burning smell? Message-ID: Okay, after a ton of rounding up the parts I finally have the keyboard, keyboard cable, mouse, Indigo and 13W3 to VGA cable to try to bring my Indigo back up. I put my baby on the desk, cable it all up... and burning smell when I start it up. So far I can't find anything on the PCBs that looks burned. Everything smells somewhere between old and burned, so that isn't much help. But here is where it gets crazier. I originally had a R3000 Indigo, with Entry graphics as I recall. Or maybe it had some 3d ass, but it was still 8bit color depth. At some point in the NASA Auctions I had come across another Indigo that worked, and it had a R4K cpu board. And then I had a card that went into one of the desksides that had a Elan set that got you Elan on a deskside (I think.) I left one of the Indigos outside with a bunch of computers for craigslisters to come curbcycle, but a homeless guy stole it all took all the metal and left behind all the smashed up plastic parts (yay.) I couldn't remember what was in the Indigo I left outside. After sniffing the PCBs for a minute or so like bomb dog looking for a burned resistor or cap.... I got to thinking that the PCBs are bigger than I remembered. Better than I remembered. I google the part numbers, and low and behold it's a R4K CPU card and a Elan graphics set. Good for performance, but it's not 100% my first SGI. But still. BUTTTTTTTT.... there is a different power supply for R4K machines, that is different from R3K machines. I'm pretty sure the machine I have is my old trusty Eggbert, and it has a R3K PSU. So now I need to find (this should be easy?) a R4K power supply for an Indigo. I don't even know if the boards will work, green LED came on for a bit then went orange. There was frame buffer output. There was no startup sound that I knew and loved. The 9430810 is the R3000 power supply, the 9430812 is the R4000/R4400 PSU. Any leads? -- Ethan O'Toole From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 22:09:27 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 23:09:27 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo, WTB Power supply? Burning smell? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a indigo that is not getting much use. I believe it has the R4000 with the better power supply, and maxed out ram.(whatever that may be, i want to say 192 Mb, but i coud be mistaken, i can fire it up and verify if needed) I have not used it much. Prom battery is dead, i used to jump it with a AAA battery temporally to get past a Time error at startup, but never got around to soldering a proper battery into it. It should have the maxed out memory, as well as the keyboard and mouse to go along with it. I am in the process of paying off 2 SGI onyx 2's, if the indigo with the keyboard and mouse would be of interest, i can sell it to you to put money twords my Onyx fund. --Devin From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 22:17:36 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 23:17:36 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo, WTB Power supply? Burning smell? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2016 11:09 PM, "devin davison" wrote: > > I have a indigo that is not getting much use. I believe it has the R4000 > with the better power supply, and maxed out ram.(whatever that may be, i > want to say 192 Mb, but i coud be mistaken, i can fire it up and verify if > needed) I have not used it much. Prom battery is dead, i used to jump it > with a AAA battery temporally to get past a Time error at startup, but > never got around to soldering a proper battery into it. It should have the > maxed out memory, as well as the keyboard and mouse to go along with it. > > I am in the process of paying off 2 SGI onyx 2's, if the indigo with the > keyboard and mouse would be of interest, i can sell it to you to put money > twords my Onyx fund. > > --Devin I recently gave my spare SGI stuff away. It's cheaply bought on Ebay, I'd just get a parts unit there. That said, the fan could be the source of the smell and the part to go first from my limited experience when a fan dies is the video card. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From ethan at 757.org Fri Dec 9 22:23:30 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 23:23:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: SGI Indigo, WTB Power supply? Burning smell? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a indigo that is not getting much use. I believe it has the R4000 > with the better power supply, and maxed out ram.(whatever that may be, i > want to say 192 Mb, but i coud be mistaken, i can fire it up and verify if > needed) I have not used it much. Prom battery is dead, i used to jump it > with a AAA battery temporally to get past a Time error at startup, but > never got around to soldering a proper battery into it. It should have the > maxed out memory, as well as the keyboard and mouse to go along with it. I just pulled mine apart after digging around online. So far, the PSU is actually the R4K model (to my surprise) and nothing is smelling roasted inside of it. It's interesting that the followup mentions the fan from the PSU. I wonder.... > I am in the process of paying off 2 SGI onyx 2's, if the indigo with the > keyboard and mouse would be of interest, i can sell it to you to put money > twords my Onyx fund. I'm going to try to repair mine first, but if all else fails I will let you know! -- Ethan O'Toole From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 10 02:58:36 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 09:58:36 +0100 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? Message-ID: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, I've got a card cage full of cards that seems to be a Megatek Graphics Subsystem. I've found a board with coaxial connectors that seems to be the Video Output Board, a CPU build out of two stacked cards, one with 8 pcs. AM2901BC and some Memory.. One fo the card(stacks) has front connectors looking like Unibus (or QBus). There is no PSU attached to the card cage. After googeling around I think the thing is related to a Megatek 7250 graphics Terminal mentioned here an there..but no pictures could be found. Is there soemone that has more informations about that thing? The megatek is an a bad shape, Crystal oscillators are heavyly corroded on the outside, it sat for 20+ years somewhere on the Attic. I'll make some Pictures next week .. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From lars at nocrew.org Sat Dec 10 05:20:42 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 12:20:42 +0100 Subject: Happy DEC-10! Message-ID: <86r35g9gj9.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Happy DEC-10, everyone! As a gift, we offer some steaming hot, freshly baked bits. Straight out of the oven, here are over 80 PDP-10 programs built from source code. http://github.com/PDP-10/its From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Dec 10 08:44:46 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 09:44:46 -0500 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 2016-12-10 3:58 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi, > > I've got a card cage full of cards that seems to be a Megatek Graphics > Subsystem. I've found a board with coaxial connectors that seems to be > the Video Output Board, a CPU build out of two stacked cards, one with 8 > pcs. AM2901BC and some Memory.. > > One fo the card(stacks) has front connectors looking like Unibus (or > QBus). > > There is no PSU attached to the card cage. > > After googeling around I think the thing is related to a Megatek 7250 > graphics Terminal mentioned here an there..but no pictures could be > found. > > Is there soemone that has more informations about that thing? > The megatek is an a bad shape, Crystal oscillators are heavyly corroded > on the outside, it sat for 20+ years somewhere on the Attic. Nice. I've seen a Megatek running, at Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, Australia, circa 1982. --Toby > > I'll make some Pictures next week .. > > Regards, > > Holm > From ethan at 757.org Sat Dec 10 10:55:24 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 11:55:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: SGI Indigo, WTB Power supply? Burning smell? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > After sniffing the PCBs for a minute or so like bomb dog looking for a burned > resistor or cap.... I got to thinking that the PCBs are bigger than I > remembered. Better than I remembered. Found the fried component! A surface mount yellow rectangular capacitor mounted on the bottom of the CPU board, somewhat near the audio DAC section. I wonder if all the similar caps that are on the bottom should be replaced. Maybe one went bad, but if one went then the others might be at risk as well. After removing the PSU to open it up, I found that it's the R4K model power supply (Yay!) and there doesn't seem to be anything fried in it. One odd thing, and I can't remember my SGI enough. I get the TOD clock error on the Indigo, and I get no startup chime tune sound. It had kind of a sputtering tick from the speaker (perhaps the fried cap is in the audio section.) Anyone know if the chime should play before the time of day clock error? -- Ethan O'Toole From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 11:27:01 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 09:27:01 -0800 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <347e722e-93e3-41e9-f868-79d07b4dea66@gmail.com> References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> <347e722e-93e3-41e9-f868-79d07b4dea66@gmail.com> Message-ID: <64F90E3D-587F-4DF0-9F09-977B0304E423@gmail.com> Fantastic! Can't wait for the info. Marc > On Dec 9, 2016, at 4:36 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > Some time ago there was a discussion about the elusive 98228A ROM that supports both the 9885 and 9895 diskette drive units on a 9825T, well good news! A fellow MoHPC member David Ramsey very kindly loaned me his, and with a little careful reading of the service manual along with studying Tony Duell's schematic I got a good idea of how it work, and observing the memory bus using a logic analyzer confirmed how it worked. I was able to dump the ROM using GPIO cards in a 9920 to simulate the memory bus, I actually went on and dumped all the ROMs in the 9825T as well as a couple other I had. I have successfully created a clone of the ROM and have even fit it into a a ROM shell. I am going to try creating a PCB for it too, what I have now is just hand wired, but it works. In the end the ROM module did not turn out to be very complicated. I am just in the process of documenting my project and will release a package soon with full documentation and most importantly the ROM image. I plan to donate my package along with all of my ROM images to hpmuseum.net. > > Paul. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 10 12:42:53 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:42:53 -0800 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <24b6e4f9-820d-3403-0e14-dded7c9f60f6@bitsavers.org> I have a similar design and a monitor that I've promised to Richard Mine is vector Docs are hard to find. On 12/10/16 12:58 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi, > > I've got a card cage full of cards that seems to be a Megatek Graphics > Subsystem. I've found a board with coaxial connectors that seems to be > the Video Output Board, a CPU build out of two stacked cards, one with 8 > pcs. AM2901BC and some Memory.. > > One fo the card(stacks) has front connectors looking like Unibus (or > QBus). > > There is no PSU attached to the card cage. > > After googeling around I think the thing is related to a Megatek 7250 > graphics Terminal mentioned here an there..but no pictures could be > found. > > Is there soemone that has more informations about that thing? > The megatek is an a bad shape, Crystal oscillators are heavyly corroded > on the outside, it sat for 20+ years somewhere on the Attic. > > I'll make some Pictures next week .. > > Regards, > > Holm > From cruff at ruffspot.net Sat Dec 10 12:24:10 2016 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 11:24:10 -0700 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 Message-ID: <551F82FA-0050-460A-931F-5F1D9C7C16D3@ruffspot.net> Excellent news! I eagerly look forward to this so I can get my 9825T talking to my 9895A! If you spin a PC board, I will be willing to purchase one or two if you end up with extras or are willing to coordinate an order. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Dec 10 13:49:44 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 20:49:44 +0100 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <347e722e-93e3-41e9-f868-79d07b4dea66@gmail.com> References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> <347e722e-93e3-41e9-f868-79d07b4dea66@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004001d2531e$8eb72fe0$ac258fa0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Paul Berger > Verzonden: zaterdag 10 december 2016 1:37 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 > > Some time ago there was a discussion about the elusive 98228A ROM that > supports both the 9885 and 9895 diskette drive units on a 9825T, well good > news! A fellow MoHPC member David Ramsey very kindly loaned me his, and > with a little careful reading of the service manual along with studying Tony > Duell's schematic I got a good idea of how it work, and observing the memory > bus using a logic analyzer confirmed how it worked. I was able to dump the > ROM using GPIO cards in a 9920 to simulate the memory bus, I actually went on > and dumped all the ROMs in the 9825T as well as a couple other I had. I have > successfully created a clone of the ROM and have even fit it into a a ROM shell. > I am going to try creating a PCB for it too, what I have now is just hand wired, > but it works. In the end the ROM module did not turn out to be very > complicated. I am just in the process of documenting my project and will > release a package soon with full documentation and most importantly the ROM > image. I plan to donate my package along with all of my ROM images to > hpmuseum.net. > > Paul. Great work Paul. -Rik From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 20:38:20 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 19:38:20 -0700 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE94E2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201612091843.uB9IhoG3022219@ultimate.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE94E2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > [1] For non-PDP10 programmers: The original architecture of the PDP-6 and > PDP-10 used an 18-bit (256KW) address space. The KI-10 processor added > a 22-bit pager and a concept of sections to the hardware. > As you say, the KI10 had 22-bit physical memory addressing, almost identical to the "KI paging" of the later Model A KL10. There were two PTEs per 36-bit word in the page table, with the five of the 18 bits being the APWSX properties, and the remaining 13 being a physical page number. The 13-bit physical page number was concatenated with the offset into the 512-word page (low 9 bits of the virtual address) to get the 22-bit physical address. However, the KI10 did not have any "sections". Sections were introduced with the Extended ("Model B", "KL paging") KL10. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 22:04:04 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (Devin) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 23:04:04 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo, WTB Power supply? Burning smell? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <980cffaa-23e4-5429-e74a-cdb7180b2f07@gmail.com> I started up my indigo today, it has the same time of day error. The chime does play before the message is displayed. --Devin On 12/10/2016 11:55 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> After sniffing the PCBs for a minute or so like bomb dog looking for >> a burned resistor or cap.... I got to thinking that the PCBs are >> bigger than I remembered. Better than I remembered. > > Found the fried component! A surface mount yellow rectangular > capacitor mounted on the bottom of the CPU board, somewhat near the > audio DAC section. I wonder if all the similar caps that are on the > bottom should be replaced. Maybe one went bad, but if one went then > the others might be at risk as well. > > After removing the PSU to open it up, I found that it's the R4K model > power supply (Yay!) and there doesn't seem to be anything fried in it. > > One odd thing, and I can't remember my SGI enough. I get the TOD clock > error on the Indigo, and I get no startup chime tune sound. It had > kind of a sputtering tick from the speaker (perhaps the fried cap is > in the audio section.) Anyone know if the chime should play before the > time of day clock error? > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > From ethan at 757.org Sat Dec 10 22:34:07 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 23:34:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: SGI Indigo, WTB Power supply? Burning smell? In-Reply-To: <980cffaa-23e4-5429-e74a-cdb7180b2f07@gmail.com> References: <980cffaa-23e4-5429-e74a-cdb7180b2f07@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I started up my indigo today, it has the same time of day error. The chime > does play before the message is displayed. > --Devin Thanks for the info! So good chance the capacitor that is fried in mine might be related to the audio section. Going to pick up a caliper so I can measure the physical size of the SMD caps and start making a list to replace. - Ethan -- Ethan O'Toole From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Dec 11 02:19:04 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 00:19:04 -0800 Subject: Compaq TSZ07 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001901d25387$3d3bdf30$b7b39d90$@net> Hello All, I know the TSZ07 is a DEC model 9 track tape drive. I've seen references to a Compaq one as well. I am guessing this probably occurred after Compaq acquired DEC and simply rebranded the drive. I am wondering does anyone own or have pictures of the Compaq branded one (i.e. w/ a Compaq logo etc...)? Thanks. -Ali From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 18:28:06 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 16:28:06 -0800 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <551F82FA-0050-460A-931F-5F1D9C7C16D3@ruffspot.net> References: <551F82FA-0050-460A-931F-5F1D9C7C16D3@ruffspot.net> Message-ID: <7A895886-B9CA-4956-9F66-FB5D7F89012D@gmail.com> Same here, count me in for extra PCBs. Marc From: cctech on behalf of Craig Ruff Reply-To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" Date: Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 10:24 AM To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 Excellent news! I eagerly look forward to this so I can get my 9825T talking to my 9895A! If you spin a PC board, I will be willing to purchase one or two if you end up with extras or are willing to coordinate an order. From mgariboldi at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 09:25:48 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (MG) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 16:25:48 +0100 Subject: for sale/trade: big list of both old and (relatively) new, deadline: end of November (ideally) In-Reply-To: <3e04cad3-4a36-e061-cb14-bf573e13c747@gmail.com> References: <3e04cad3-4a36-e061-cb14-bf573e13c747@gmail.com> Message-ID: All the SGI systems and most parts (except the DMediaPro DM10 IEEE-1394a FireWire/i.Link board[s]), the DEC Multia/UDB, APC Smart-UPS 3000 XLM, Wacom Intuos ADB tablets, IBM System x rack rails, IBM System x (x346) PSUs, various cables, etc. have been sold or scrapped, the AlphaServer (e.g. DS15) memory is spoken for, as is the DS15 PCI audio option, but other things are for the time being still available, but won't be for much longer. - MG From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 11 10:06:02 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 16:06:02 -0000 Subject: Sticking a VT100 Keyboard Foot Back On In-Reply-To: <35350226-9ad1-76b2-3b5c-77f6414eaf75@sydex.com> References: <014001d24e4e$a7731b40$f65951c0$@ntlworld.com> <35350226-9ad1-76b2-3b5c-77f6414eaf75@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000a01d253c8$7956ec30$6c04c490$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 04 December 2016 17:53 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Sticking a VT100 Keyboard Foot Back On > > On 12/04/2016 08:51 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > The rubber feet on my VT100 keyboards are falling off. The feet are in > > good condition, just the glue seems to be failing. Does anyone know > > what kind of glue should be used to stick them back on reliably? > > Plain old rubber contact cement (e.g. Weldwood or Barge) works extremely > well. Make sure both parts to be joined are clean and free of the remnants > of the old glue, apply a thin coat to both parts (you may want to mask the > keyboard off), allow both parts to dry (no longer "tacky"). > Position the foot carefully over the keyboard and press down. You get only > one try to get the positioning correct--the bond is fairly permanent. > > I've done this quite a bit with rubber feet and have never had one come > loose again. > Thanks for that suggestion. I tried some glue from a bicycle puncture repair kit and it did indeed work very well. Regards Rob From tmanos at concursive.com Sun Dec 11 10:06:48 2016 From: tmanos at concursive.com (Tom Manos) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 11:06:48 -0500 Subject: Introduction and Novell UnixWare 2.02 problem Message-ID: Hi, I'm new to this list, but I've been on the rescue and geeks list for many years. I'm kind of a Unix guy, but unlike many of you, I learned mostly on AT&T Unix. I started using Unix in the early '80s and ran a public access Unix system from roughly '87 to '92, when it turned into a real ISP, which got to be quite large. We mostly used Dec Alpha stuff then. I couldn't afford a Sun workstation in the '80s, so ran SVR2/3/4 on Intel hardware, and even that was expensive. These were the days of 1200bps Smartmodems (which were also pricey) and terminal or BBS interfaces. The Unix systems provided Usenet, real email and even rudimentary file transfer via UUCP. I still love the terminal based interface and won't run X on my old hardware. I'm really a Unix Philosophy sort of guy. Small tools, filters, and all the rest. So, on to my question: I run UnixWare 2.02 on a couple of older machines here at home. It is a pretty standard version of SVR4 if you don't install the Netware stuff. It is very stable and runs great on the older Pentium hardware I have. Recently I build a dual processor P3 system with an ASUS P2B-D MB so I could run SVR4-MP, which runs wonderfully. These are SCSI systems with SCSI2SD boards used as disk drives. Old 50 pin SCSI drives are getting more expensive and have questionable longevity. I want to build some emergency rescue diskettes and tapes, and my problem is that the 3.5" floppy will not format a diskette under UnixWare. I've tried everything I can think of. The drive is good (I can format a DOS floppy when I boot up DOS), and the diskettes are known good. When I use the format command on the raw disk device, I get the following: # /usr/sbin/format -V /dev/rdsk/f03dt formatting. UX:format: ERROR: Formatted 0 out of 160 tracks: Failed in write/read/compare verification on track 0. Doing so without the -V verification just appears to merrily format the diskette, but it's not formatted. The device(s) I'm using are: crw-rw-rw- 5 root sys 1,112 Feb 14 1995 /dev/rdsk/f03ht or crw-rw-rw- 5 root sys 1,112 Feb 14 1995 /dev/rdsk/f03h Both yield the same error. I'm thinking this must be a device driver problem, but i"m out of my league here. Anybody have an idea what's going on and how to fix it? Oh, and sorry for the long post. I thought it might be polite to introduce myself. TIA, Tom From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 11 10:11:23 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 08:11:23 -0800 Subject: Introduction and Novell UnixWare 2.02 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94437295-cdf0-626b-c0a6-cd9e52057b36@bitsavers.org> On 12/11/16 8:06 AM, Tom Manos wrote: > I want to build some emergency rescue diskettes and tapes, and my > problem is that the 3.5" floppy will not format a diskette under > UnixWare. Use Dave Dunfield's Imagedisk program under DOS http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 11 12:02:19 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 10:02:19 -0800 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <24b6e4f9-820d-3403-0e14-dded7c9f60f6@bitsavers.org> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> <24b6e4f9-820d-3403-0e14-dded7c9f60f6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8266b3ba-141e-0236-37c9-4ffd0572b153@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/16 10:42 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I have a similar design and a monitor that I've promised to Richard > Mine is vector > > Docs are hard to find. > > On 12/10/16 12:58 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I've got a card cage full of cards that seems to be a Megatek Graphics >> Subsystem. I've found a board with coaxial connectors that seems to be >> the Video Output Board, a CPU build out of two stacked cards, one with 8 >> pcs. AM2901BC and some Memory.. >> Dug out my board set this morning and it's MUCH older. No bit slice parts at all. From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 11 12:16:05 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 19:16:05 +0100 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <8266b3ba-141e-0236-37c9-4ffd0572b153@bitsavers.org> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> <24b6e4f9-820d-3403-0e14-dded7c9f60f6@bitsavers.org> <8266b3ba-141e-0236-37c9-4ffd0572b153@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20161211181605.GA81045@beast.freibergnet.de> Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 12/10/16 10:42 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I have a similar design and a monitor that I've promised to Richard > > Mine is vector > > > > Docs are hard to find. > > > > On 12/10/16 12:58 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I've got a card cage full of cards that seems to be a Megatek Graphics > >> Subsystem. I've found a board with coaxial connectors that seems to be > >> the Video Output Board, a CPU build out of two stacked cards, one with 8 > >> pcs. AM2901BC and some Memory.. > >> > > Dug out my board set this morning and it's MUCH older. No bit slice parts at all. On my set they are in the middle of a 2 boards sandwich ... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From anders at abc80.net Sun Dec 11 14:26:21 2016 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 21:26:21 +0100 Subject: BASF 8" floppy drive documentation and alignment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67c63cdca854eab921d2b216c94fcf49.squirrel@www.sadata.se> Hi, I'm looking after some documentation on the BASF 6104 8" floppy drive. I really want to know how to align it properly. I do not have a 8" alignment disc, can it be done without one? /Anders From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Dec 11 15:45:26 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 13:45:26 -0800 Subject: AT IBM Industrial's for sale (Ebay warning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41be1330-5647-cea9-9dab-9d0e4f1f2df5@jwsss.com> On 12/8/2016 10:49 PM, jim stephens wrote: > Ebay listing below has the information about them, but we can get them > direct. If anyone has any ideas on the shipping charges, Ebay is screwing > him horribly and help would be appreciated to get them shipped at a better > rate. > > Thanks > Jim > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262750011708 Well, I now own 10 of these, plus a friend who minds my warehouse owns two. I would love to know if anyone has info about the Model 7587 Industrial. From the other unit I saw online, I am wondering if need setup disks, and if anyone has them. The fellow who took the others and I want to put in whatever drives are required and run Pick, so if setup is required, we will need such media to do so. I found a site that claimed to have an archive, and chased it into archive.org, but the actual zip file didn't have the media. I did get a hint that the chipset was SiS630 which there are hints about, but with the IBM bios I don't have a lot of hopes that does me any good. These are very nice systems for what he does with Pick, as he has systems which he's replaced a few times since the mid 80's that will keep on chugging just fine on this hardware. thanks Jim From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 15:59:30 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (Devin) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 16:59:30 -0500 Subject: Zenith Z160 Luggable PC aquired Message-ID: <4911b044-1319-ff17-d9e7-b61212cda9dc@gmail.com> Picked this up a while back, just getting around to messing with it. Appears to be an IBM XT compatible machine in a portable....err luggable size. Dual 360K drives, although the second one does not seem to be working. I can get it to boot to dos, but run out of space quite quickly. Anyone have any experience with these machines, is it possible to upgrade the drives in there? There appear to be isa card slots inside, i was thinking as a last resort to swap out the floppy controller and put some new drives in it. That space limitation is really making it a doorstop. I have a parallel port hard drive, but the driver takes up too much space and will not fit on the boot disk. --Devin https://s20.postimg.org/t0ozx0iul/IMG_0018.jpg https://s20.postimg.org/cqytu486l/IMG_0022.jpg From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 11 16:28:18 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 14:28:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zenith Z160 Luggable PC aquired In-Reply-To: <4911b044-1319-ff17-d9e7-b61212cda9dc@gmail.com> References: <4911b044-1319-ff17-d9e7-b61212cda9dc@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Dec 2016, Devin wrote: > Picked this up a while back, just getting around to messing with it. Appears > to be an IBM XT compatible machine in a portable....err luggable size. Dual > 360K drives, although the second one does not seem to be working. I can get > it to boot to dos, but run out of space quite quickly. > Anyone have any experience with these machines, is it possible to upgrade > the drives in there? There appear to be isa card slots inside, i was > thinking as a last resort to swap out the floppy controller and put some new > drives in it. That space limitation is really making it a doorstop. I have a > parallel port hard drive, but the driver takes up too much space and will > not fit on the boot disk. If it is "XT compatible", and runs MS-DOS 2.00 or above (hopefully ZENITH MS-DOS 2.11), VER then it can support a hard disk. "Hard Card" would be one of the easier ways to do so. If it can run DOS 3.20, or depending on WHICH MS-DOS 2.11 is available, then the 360K drives can be trivially swapped out for 720K. If you make a new boot disk (write protect the one that you have!) FORMAT /S if you delete everything except COMMAND.COM from the duplicate, then is there room (about 300K!) for your driver? You will need to create CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT to run the driver. Surely, the authors of the driver for a parallel port hard drive would not make a driver that would not fit on a MINIMAL system disk! (although likely not fit on a "complete" copy of DOS) MicroSolutions "Backpack" drives always had a verion of their drivers that would fit on a 360K, sometimes even on a 160K. From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 17:01:18 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 17:01:18 -0600 Subject: Zenith Z160 Luggable PC aquired In-Reply-To: References: <4911b044-1319-ff17-d9e7-b61212cda9dc@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20161211230118.GA2293@gmail.com> On Sun, Dec 11, 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 11 Dec 2016, Devin wrote: > > I have a parallel port hard drive, but the driver takes up too > > much space and will not fit on the boot disk. [...] > MicroSolutions "Backpack" drives always had a verion of their drivers that > would fit on a 360K, sometimes even on a 160K. I was just going to ask, what kind of external hard drive Devin has. I'm thinking one would be nice in my significant other's Sharp PC-7000 as well (although that one actually had its own hard drive model; that would be really cool to acquire). -- Eric Christopherson From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 11 17:03:18 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 15:03:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zenith Z160 Luggable PC aquired In-Reply-To: References: <4911b044-1319-ff17-d9e7-b61212cda9dc@gmail.com> Message-ID: > If it can run DOS 3.20, or depending on WHICH MS-DOS 2.11 is available, then > the 360K drives can be trivially swapped out for 720K. Your picture shows "generic" MS-DOS 5.00 So, you absolutely can connect 720K drives. (a 1.4M drive will prob'ly be seen as being 720K) It definitely can handle a hard drive. (trivial GOOGLE shows that a 20M drive was available, but ANY XT drive and controller should prob'ly be usable. Your parallel port hard drive should be fine, once you make a SPARE system disk with enough extraneous stuff deleted off of it. TRY to find a copy of ZENITH (NOT ANY OTHER BRAND!!) MS-DOS ("Z-DOS") 2.11 or 3.31 If you want to be able to switch between the internal monitor and an external one, you will need MODE.COM from one of THOSE two versions. (and you will need to stetp on the INT21h function call 30h in MODE.COM, OR MS-DOS 5.00 will need to run SETVER to keep from getting a "Wrong DOS version" error message) If you are crazy enough to want to, you should be able to run Windows 3.00 on it, but NOT 3.10 or above. Windows, of course, will require more disk space than you currently have. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 17:28:49 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 15:28:49 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: I acquired an HP 1630D a couple of days ago. It is a 2311A serial number prefix with the expected 01630-66512 version CPU board. It originally had the "HP1630 Software, Tue, 26 Oct 1982, 16:31" 01630-80008 - 01630-80015 version firmware 2764 EPROM set installed. That is the version with HP-IL tape storage support. I burned a "HP1631 Software, Mon, 14 Oct 1985" 01630-80054 - 01630-80061 version firmware 27128 EPROM set and swapped those in place of the original firmware EPROMs and now have HP-IB disk storage support. The only two 1630 config/IA floppies I currently have are 10304-13012 8085 Config / Inverse Assembler 10342-13012 HP-IB, RS-232C/V.24, RS-442 Config / Inverse Assembler I used HPDir to dup the two floppies from a physical 9121D drive into .HPI image files, then verified that the 1630D can access those .HPI image files loaded into HPDrive to emulate a 9121D drive. I can send those two .HPI image files to anyone who wants them. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 18:05:15 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (Devin) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 19:05:15 -0500 Subject: Zenith Z160 Luggable PC aquired In-Reply-To: References: <4911b044-1319-ff17-d9e7-b61212cda9dc@gmail.com> Message-ID: Picture of the parallel port drive i am using is attached. Looks like it will be pretty nice if i get it working, i picked it up in box at a scrapyard, the driver floppy was destroyed beyond reading, and took me a while to find the drivers for. https://s20.postimg.org/4t9067ka5/IMG_0026_1.jpg I appreciate the advice on the drives. I do have some spare 720K and 1.2MB drives, if one of those will work with the stock controller it will be of much better use to me. I do have interest in being able to use it on an external monitor so ill look into tracking down a Zenith version of dos. DOS software is the main focus, not really interested in windows. I have an 8 bit ISA sound blaster card, i want to see if i can get some music tracker software going on it, or perhaps a BBS / JNOS . --Devin On 12/11/2016 6:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> If it can run DOS 3.20, or depending on WHICH MS-DOS 2.11 is >> available, then the 360K drives can be trivially swapped out for 720K. > > Your picture shows "generic" MS-DOS 5.00 > > So, you absolutely can connect 720K drives. (a 1.4M drive will > prob'ly be seen as being 720K) > > It definitely can handle a hard drive. (trivial GOOGLE shows that a > 20M drive was available, but ANY XT drive and controller should > prob'ly be usable. > Your parallel port hard drive should be fine, once you make a SPARE > system disk with enough extraneous stuff deleted off of it. > > TRY to find a copy of ZENITH (NOT ANY OTHER BRAND!!) MS-DOS ("Z-DOS") > 2.11 or 3.31 > If you want to be able to switch between the internal monitor and an > external one, you will need MODE.COM from one of THOSE two versions. > (and you will need to stetp on the INT21h function call 30h in > MODE.COM, OR MS-DOS 5.00 will need to run SETVER to keep from getting > a "Wrong DOS version" error message) > > > If you are crazy enough to want to, you should be able to run Windows > 3.00 on it, but NOT 3.10 or above. Windows, of course, will require > more disk space than you currently have. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 11 18:59:18 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 16:59:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zenith Z160 Luggable PC aquired In-Reply-To: References: <4911b044-1319-ff17-d9e7-b61212cda9dc@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Dec 2016, Devin wrote: > I appreciate the advice on the drives. I do have some spare 720K and 1.2MB > drives, if one of those will work with the stock controller it will be of > much better use to me. 1.2M will NOT WORK! 720K will There are some aftermarket floppy disk controller cards that would work in that machine that can handle high density drives, but the stock controller CAN NOT. > I do have interest in being able to use it on an > external monitor so ill look into tracking down a Zenith version of dos. Get ZENITH ("Z-DOS") MS-DOS 3.31 There might be more than one version of THAT, so get one explicitly intended for that machine. Although MODE.COM from any DOS version that was intended for THAT machine is likely to work. It may be a trivial BIOS call. Besides special video capabilities, that MODE.COM may have other machine specific capabilities, and some other aspects of Z-DOS Zenith MS-DOS may not be the same as generic MS-DOS. I think that the Z160 is based closely enough to the Z100 that http://planemo.org/retro/downloads/z100/manuals/Z-100%20Programmers%20Reference%20Manual-OCR.pdf is likely to be the correct one. In stock configuration the video is CGA, so it is POSSIBLE that connecting a composite monitor (if the Z160 has the connector) might not require any additional software. Do not connect an MDA monitor unless you are sure that the sync frequency is right. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=465&st=1 Don't those machines have a debugging monitor in ROM? (something that IBM does NOT) Otherwise DEBUG.COM should work. From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 20:41:57 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 20:41:57 -0600 Subject: Zenith Z160 Luggable PC aquired In-Reply-To: <4911b044-1319-ff17-d9e7-b61212cda9dc@gmail.com> References: <4911b044-1319-ff17-d9e7-b61212cda9dc@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20161212024157.GC2293@gmail.com> On Sun, Dec 11, 2016, Devin wrote: > https://s20.postimg.org/t0ozx0iul/IMG_0018.jpg > > > https://s20.postimg.org/cqytu486l/IMG_0022.jpg It looks like missiles are about to pop out of those floppy drives! -- Eric Christopherson From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Dec 11 21:01:24 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 22:01:24 -0500 Subject: Local Pickup of PDP-11 Qbus Hardware, Software and Manuals Message-ID: <584E1304.1040709@compsys.to> As I find that there is less and less need for my PDP-11 Qbus Hardware, Software and Manuals, I wish to determine if there is any interest in my local area to transfer everything using local pickup in Toronto. As some of you know, my interest is in RT-11 on the PDP-11 and I have been doing it since the 1970s. If there is sufficient interest to come by and do a local pickup, then please send me an e-mail with a local phone number in area code 416 or 647 (or 905 which can be called locally from 416) so we can arrange something. The total volume of everything, including probably at least 30% junk, is probably ten to twenty cubic meters (100 to 200 cubic feet), so there will need to be some sorting done along the way. As for hardware, the collection is mostly BA23 and BA123 boxes with PDP-11/73 and one PDP-11/83 along with assorted Qbus boards. There are many VT100, VT220 and VT320 terminals as well. There are many PDP-11 manuals and DOC sets for RT-11. I download my e-mails rarely these days, so it may take even a few weeks before I reply. Jerome Fine From markwgreen at rogers.com Sun Dec 11 22:01:27 2016 From: markwgreen at rogers.com (Mark Green) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 23:01:27 -0500 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <20161211181605.GA81045@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> <24b6e4f9-820d-3403-0e14-dded7c9f60f6@bitsavers.org> <8266b3ba-141e-0236-37c9-4ffd0572b153@bitsavers.org> <20161211181605.GA81045@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <004401d2542c$69dcadd0$3d960970$@rogers.com> Megatek was one of the main high end graphics vendors in the 1970s and early 1980s, the other one was Evans and Sutherland. They were both largely knocked out of the market when SGI came along. I always wanted one, but my employers could never afford something that high end. Internally they are vector displays, they connected to a host computer to download the display program to produce the graphics. One of the interesting features of some of the later models is that they could be hooked up to a vector or raster display. I think they could also support both from the same controller. Megatek saw that the world was going raster, and they moved in that direction a little too late. A very nice architecture. I believe one of the early versions of Foley and van Dam has a high level description of the architecture. I've searched the web multiple times looking for information on them, but had little luck. If the one that you have has raster output there is a good chance that you could get a modern monitor to display the output. If it has vector output you really need the display unit. They are less likely to survive than the other components unfortunately. By the way, if anyone on the list has Evans and Sutherland documentation I would be very interested in talking to them. I have an E&S picture system that I would like to get fully functional again, but I have no documentation for it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe Sent: December 11, 2016 1:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 12/10/16 10:42 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I have a similar design and a monitor that I've promised to Richard > > Mine is vector > > > > Docs are hard to find. > > > > On 12/10/16 12:58 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I've got a card cage full of cards that seems to be a Megatek > >> Graphics Subsystem. I've found a board with coaxial connectors that > >> seems to be the Video Output Board, a CPU build out of two stacked > >> cards, one with 8 pcs. AM2901BC and some Memory.. > >> > > Dug out my board set this morning and it's MUCH older. No bit slice parts at all. On my set they are in the middle of a 2 boards sandwich ... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 22:10:03 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (Devin) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 23:10:03 -0500 Subject: Zenith Z160 Luggable PC aquired In-Reply-To: <20161212024157.GC2293@gmail.com> References: <4911b044-1319-ff17-d9e7-b61212cda9dc@gmail.com> <20161212024157.GC2293@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah, quite an odd pop up design on the drives,, but it works quite well, it is pretty comfortable to use. On 12/11/2016 9:41 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Sun, Dec 11, 2016, Devin wrote: >> https://s20.postimg.org/t0ozx0iul/IMG_0018.jpg >> >> >> https://s20.postimg.org/cqytu486l/IMG_0022.jpg > It looks like missiles are about to pop out of those floppy drives! > From ethan at 757.org Sun Dec 11 22:52:43 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 23:52:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: SGI Indigo Update Message-ID: I started updating my blog with (hopefully useful) information. I did a write up on the SGI Indigo so far and will update it with future findings. It's at http://ethan.757.org/?p=32 I made a list of all the tantulum SMD capacitors of the style of the one that fried. I think I figured out digikey part numbers for most (And published the sizes I measured of the caps.) If the cap that fried belongs to the audio section, I was thinking maybe those components use negative PSU voltages (op-amps, DACs) so maybe the PSU is doing something funky. Finding a pinout for the Indigo PSU might take a little bit of work -- but since I have mine apart I should be able to document some of it. So many projects! -- Ethan O'Toole From barythrin at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 22:58:54 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 22:58:54 -0600 Subject: Zenith Z160 Luggable PC aquired Message-ID: I'm not sure specifically on the z-160 but my z-150 had it (iirc and it's been a while ctrl+alt+ins or ctrl+alt+enter) I think put you in the diagnostic rom which had a debugger. Curiously though i dont know if that is a hardware function or a feature of zdos? -------- Original message --------From: Fred Cisin Date: 12/11/16 6:59 PM (GMT-06:00) Don't those machines have a debugging monitor in ROM?? (something that IBM does NOT)? Otherwise DEBUG.COM should work. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 23:01:10 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 23:01:10 -0600 Subject: Local Pickup of PDP-11 Qbus Hardware, Software and Manuals In-Reply-To: <584E1304.1040709@compsys.to> References: <584E1304.1040709@compsys.to> Message-ID: whys nothing in winnipeg ;'( On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 9:01 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > As I find that there is less and less need for my PDP-11 Qbus Hardware, > Software and Manuals, I wish to determine if there is any interest in my > local area to transfer everything using local pickup in Toronto. > > As some of you know, my interest is in RT-11 on the PDP-11 and I have > been doing it since the 1970s. If there is sufficient interest to come by > and > do a local pickup, then please send me an e-mail with a local phone number > in area code 416 or 647 (or 905 which can be called locally from 416) so > we can arrange something. > > The total volume of everything, including probably at least 30% junk, is > probably ten to twenty cubic meters (100 to 200 cubic feet), so there > will need to be some sorting done along the way. As for hardware, > the collection is mostly BA23 and BA123 boxes with PDP-11/73 > and one PDP-11/83 along with assorted Qbus boards. There are > many VT100, VT220 and VT320 terminals as well. There are many > PDP-11 manuals and DOC sets for RT-11. > > I download my e-mails rarely these days, so it may take even a few weeks > before I reply. > > Jerome Fine > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 11 15:04:55 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 13:04:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: BASF 8" floppy drive documentation and alignment In-Reply-To: <67c63cdca854eab921d2b216c94fcf49.squirrel@www.sadata.se> References: <67c63cdca854eab921d2b216c94fcf49.squirrel@www.sadata.se> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Dec 2016, Anders Sandahl wrote: > Hi, > I'm looking after some documentation on the BASF 6104 8" floppy drive. I > really want to know how to align it properly. > I do not have a 8" alignment disc, can it be done without one? You can not "align it properly" without an alignment disk. But, you can probably get it close enough to its prior alignment to be able to read disks with it. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 16:17:04 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 17:17:04 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit Message-ID: There was a seller on ebay who had a set of the pre-made keyboard key pads for sale...anyone here selling these? Yes I could make my own, I have gone through the process, but I'd like to buy a set or two as I have a few keyboards to repair. it's a time consuming process. Thanks in advance. Bill From pete at pski.net Sun Dec 11 18:56:05 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 19:56:05 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> > On Dec 11, 2016, at 5:17 PM, william degnan wrote: > > There was a seller on ebay who had a set of the pre-made keyboard key pads > for sale...anyone here selling these? Yes I could make my own, I have gone > through the process, but I'd like to buy a set or two as I have a few > keyboards to repair. it's a time consuming process. > Thanks in advance. > Bill He?s still out there http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-9000-SIRIUS-1-Keyboard-repair-Foam-Pads-for-KeyTronic-Keyboards/121266887970 From fink at stenoweb.net Sun Dec 11 23:44:51 2016 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 05:44:51 +0000 Subject: Local Pickup of PDP-11 Qbus Hardware, Software and Manuals In-Reply-To: <584E1304.1040709@compsys.to> References: <584E1304.1040709@compsys.to> Message-ID: Hey there, I?m in Toronto and have an interest in DEC / PDP hardware. I don?t have a whole lot of space unfortunately, but I could probably help you with a BA23 unit and a terminal. If possible, would it be possible for me to visit and take a look? Not sure exactly where you?re located. My number is (437) 345-6530 Before you ask, 437 is a new area code assigned to the Toronto area because the supply of 647 numbers is dwindling (they might even be exhausted at this point). Thanks! -Brian On 2016-12-11, 10:01 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Jerome H. Fine" wrote: >As I find that there is less and less need for my PDP-11 Qbus Hardware, >Software and Manuals, I wish to determine if there is any interest in my >local area to transfer everything using local pickup in Toronto. > >As some of you know, my interest is in RT-11 on the PDP-11 and I have >been doing it since the 1970s. If there is sufficient interest to come >by and >do a local pickup, then please send me an e-mail with a local phone number >in area code 416 or 647 (or 905 which can be called locally from 416) so >we can arrange something. > >The total volume of everything, including probably at least 30% junk, is >probably ten to twenty cubic meters (100 to 200 cubic feet), so there >will need to be some sorting done along the way. As for hardware, >the collection is mostly BA23 and BA123 boxes with PDP-11/73 >and one PDP-11/83 along with assorted Qbus boards. There are >many VT100, VT220 and VT320 terminals as well. There are many >PDP-11 manuals and DOC sets for RT-11. > >I download my e-mails rarely these days, so it may take even a few weeks >before I reply. > >Jerome Fine From rp at servium.ch Mon Dec 12 04:47:38 2016 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 11:47:38 +0100 Subject: SGI Indigo Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?t=3731 has the pinouts. Works like a charm ;) On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 5:52 AM, wrote: > > I started updating my blog with (hopefully useful) information. > > I did a write up on the SGI Indigo so far and will update it with future > findings. It's at http://ethan.757.org/?p=32 > > I made a list of all the tantulum SMD capacitors of the style of the one > that fried. I think I figured out digikey part numbers for most (And > published the sizes I measured of the caps.) > > If the cap that fried belongs to the audio section, I was thinking maybe > those components use negative PSU voltages (op-amps, DACs) so maybe the PSU > is doing something funky. Finding a pinout for the Indigo PSU might take a > little bit of work -- but since I have mine apart I should be able to > document some of it. > > So many projects! > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 12 04:26:42 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 11:26:42 +0100 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <004701d25462$3c5b24a0$b5116de0$@xs4all.nl> > I used HPDir to dup the two floppies from a physical 9121D drive into .HPI image > files, then verified that the 1630D can access those .HPI image files loaded into > HPDrive to emulate a 9121D drive. > > I can send those two .HPI image files to anyone who wants them. Glen, Could you upload them to http://www.ko4bb.com/ So the measurement community can access them also? -Rik From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 05:51:02 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 06:51:02 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> Message-ID: Thanks. I was searching with the wrong terms. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Dec 12, 2016 1:19 AM, "Peter Cetinski" wrote: > > > On Dec 11, 2016, at 5:17 PM, william degnan > wrote: > > > > There was a seller on ebay who had a set of the pre-made keyboard key > pads > > for sale...anyone here selling these? Yes I could make my own, I have > gone > > through the process, but I'd like to buy a set or two as I have a few > > keyboards to repair. it's a time consuming process. > > Thanks in advance. > > Bill > > He?s still out there > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-9000-SIRIUS-1-Keyboard- > repair-Foam-Pads-for-KeyTronic-Keyboards/121266887970 From ethan at 757.org Mon Dec 12 08:27:02 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 09:27:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: SGI Indigo Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?t=3731 has the pinouts. Works like > a charm ;) I found that in my hunt but I think those pinouts are for the Indy/Challenge S machines? The Indy had a soft power on button on the front, the Indigo has a reset button and speaker mounted to the power supply (but the wires from those are just passed directly to the power supply connector.) Might get a chance to poke at it tonight after work and I'll compare! Thanks! - Ethan -- Ethan O'Toole From rp at servium.ch Mon Dec 12 09:29:56 2016 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 16:29:56 +0100 Subject: SGI Indigo Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Damn, you're right, that's the pinout for the Indy. I have both an Indy and an Indigo with a modified ATX power supply. I can't for the life of me find the page again that had the pinout (the service manual is not helpful: http://www.megarat.com/indigo/docs/indigo_service.PDF). I'll go and check ;) On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 3:27 PM, wrote: > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?t=3731 has the pinouts. Works >> like >> a charm ;) >> > > I found that in my hunt but I think those pinouts are for the > Indy/Challenge S machines? The Indy had a soft power on button on the > front, the Indigo has a reset button and speaker mounted to the power > supply (but the wires from those are just passed directly to the power > supply connector.) > > Might get a chance to poke at it tonight after work and I'll compare! > > Thanks! > > - Ethan > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > From ethan at 757.org Mon Dec 12 09:59:36 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 10:59:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: SGI Indigo Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Damn, you're right, that's the pinout for the Indy. I have both an Indy and > an Indigo with a modified ATX power supply. You're running an Indigo on ATX power supply guts? Interesting. My co-worker has a SGI Fuel on his desk with a bad PSU and has talked about converting it. -- Ethan O'Toole From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 12 10:06:31 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 08:06:31 -0800 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <004401d2542c$69dcadd0$3d960970$@rogers.com> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> <24b6e4f9-820d-3403-0e14-dded7c9f60f6@bitsavers.org> <8266b3ba-141e-0236-37c9-4ffd0572b153@bitsavers.org> <20161211181605.GA81045@beast.freibergnet.de> <004401d2542c$69dcadd0$3d960970$@rogers.com> Message-ID: <24397a25-7648-77b4-9c13-f76b58b1a7a5@bitsavers.org> On 12/11/16 8:01 PM, Mark Green wrote: > I have an E&S picture system > that I would like to get fully functional again, but I have no documentation > for it. > PS-300 or earlier? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 12 10:09:38 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 08:09:38 -0800 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <004401d2542c$69dcadd0$3d960970$@rogers.com> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> <24b6e4f9-820d-3403-0e14-dded7c9f60f6@bitsavers.org> <8266b3ba-141e-0236-37c9-4ffd0572b153@bitsavers.org> <20161211181605.GA81045@beast.freibergnet.de> <004401d2542c$69dcadd0$3d960970$@rogers.com> Message-ID: <46b28a17-0099-1110-0262-d96f36cc831d@bitsavers.org> On 12/11/16 8:01 PM, Mark Green wrote: > If it has vector output > you really need the display unit. They are less likely to survive than the > other components unfortunately. > Mostly because they are BIG CRTs Megatek documentation is extremely difficult to find, which is why I never did anything with the one that I have. From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Dec 12 10:55:06 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:55:06 +0100 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20161212165506.GA34164@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: [..] I made some pictures and currently uploading them to http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/misc/Megatek/ Caution: the images are 3072x2048 pixels JPGs, approx 1,5 Mbyte in size. The 2 PCBs on the table are the "MP Microcontroller MAW 35-0066-00" Sandwich disassembled. W/o documentation I think it is very unlikly that I can get this beast working again... The cards in the cage are placed in random order and currently I don't have the PSU, but the former Owner will look for it. The faceplate says 230V, 3A.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tingox at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 11:18:38 2016 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 18:18:38 +0100 Subject: SGI Indigo Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 4:59 PM, wrote: >> Damn, you're right, that's the pinout for the Indy. I have both an Indy >> and >> an Indigo with a modified ATX power supply. > > > You're running an Indigo on ATX power supply guts? Interesting. My co-worker > has a SGI Fuel on his desk with a bad PSU and has talked about converting > it. The Fuel also have a "convert an ATX psu" option, it is on this wiki page : http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/Fuel_PSU_repair (there is also a thread in the Nekochan forums about it) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 12 12:53:41 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 10:53:41 -0800 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <20161212165506.GA34164@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161212165506.GA34164@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <49025f79-dd42-7300-0ec1-4b1ef021a0cc@bitsavers.org> On 12/12/16 8:55 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > [..] > I made some pictures and currently uploading them to > http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/misc/Megatek/ > thanks! mine looks very similar. I guess I need to check the backs of the boards to see if there are 40 pin DIPs hiding on the bottom board I also need to dig out the chassis to see what model number mine is. None of the boards have Unibus connectors out the top. I also put up a couple of Megatek related documents and a product announcement for the 7000 on bitsavers. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 17:47:09 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (Devin) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 18:47:09 -0500 Subject: Zenith Z160 Luggable PC aquired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting, I was not aware of that feature. It appears to be a hardware feature. works with control+ alt+ enter on my machine. --Devin On 12/11/2016 11:58 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > I'm not sure specifically on the z-160 but my z-150 had it (iirc and it's been a while ctrl+alt+ins or ctrl+alt+enter) I think put you in the diagnostic rom which had a debugger. > Curiously though i dont know if that is a hardware function or a feature of zdos? > -------- Original message --------From: Fred Cisin Date: 12/11/16 6:59 PM (GMT-06:00) > > Don't those machines have a debugging monitor in ROM? (something that IBM > does NOT) Otherwise DEBUG.COM should work. From fast79ta at yahoo.com Mon Dec 12 18:12:26 2016 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe Piche) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:12:26 -0700 Subject: Local Pickup of PDP-11 Qbus Hardware, Software and Manuals In-Reply-To: <584E1304.1040709@compsys.to> References: <584E1304.1040709@compsys.to> Message-ID: <0cc3da2a-58d9-6f8a-e897-4815a0f55074@yahoo.com> On 12/11/2016 8:01 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > As I find that there is less and less need for my PDP-11 Qbus Hardware, > Software and Manuals, I wish to determine if there is any interest in my > local area to transfer everything using local pickup in Toronto. > > As some of you know, my interest is in RT-11 on the PDP-11 and I have > been doing it since the 1970s. If there is sufficient interest to > come by and > do a local pickup, then please send me an e-mail with a local phone > number > in area code 416 or 647 (or 905 which can be called locally from 416) so > we can arrange something. > > The total volume of everything, including probably at least 30% junk, is > probably ten to twenty cubic meters (100 to 200 cubic feet), so there > will need to be some sorting done along the way. As for hardware, > the collection is mostly BA23 and BA123 boxes with PDP-11/73 > and one PDP-11/83 along with assorted Qbus boards. There are > many VT100, VT220 and VT320 terminals as well. There are many > PDP-11 manuals and DOC sets for RT-11. > > I download my e-mails rarely these days, so it may take even a few weeks > before I reply. > > Jerome Fine If some one picks up some of this, I'd love to get my hands on a complete VT-102 for my PiDP8. I'd pay shipping and time. I'm located in Alberta. From markwgreen at rogers.com Mon Dec 12 22:36:47 2016 From: markwgreen at rogers.com (Mark Green) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 23:36:47 -0500 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <24397a25-7648-77b4-9c13-f76b58b1a7a5@bitsavers.org> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> <24b6e4f9-820d-3403-0e14-dded7c9f60f6@bitsavers.org> <8266b3ba-141e-0236-37c9-4ffd0572b153@bitsavers.org> <20161211181605.GA81045@beast.freibergnet.de> <004401d2542c$69dcadd0$3d960970$@rogers.com> <24397a25-7648-77b4-9c13-f76b58b1a7a5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000001d254fa$84882dc0$8d988940$@rogers.com> It's a late model PS-300, I believe the model number is PS-340. It's one of the few that they made with a colour vector display. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: December 12, 2016 11:07 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? On 12/11/16 8:01 PM, Mark Green wrote: > I have an E&S picture system > that I would like to get fully functional again, but I have no > documentation for it. > PS-300 or earlier? From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 07:47:42 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 08:47:42 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> Message-ID: Upon closer inspection, these are pads only. I am looking for the pads with new metallic contacts attached, too. The metallic pads also decay and need to be replaced. I have been able to re-use some but they're never 100% good. The surface gets coated with something that causes them to loose the desired properties and cleaning does not always help. I have a punch to create my own pads, and I *could* make metallic pads from a space blanket or similar but I was hoping to find pre-made-ready-to-use replacement pads instead. I could use 4 sets. Bill On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:51 AM, william degnan wrote: > Thanks. I was searching with the wrong terms. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Dec 12, 2016 1:19 AM, "Peter Cetinski" wrote: > >> >> > On Dec 11, 2016, at 5:17 PM, william degnan >> wrote: >> > >> > There was a seller on ebay who had a set of the pre-made keyboard key >> pads >> > for sale...anyone here selling these? Yes I could make my own, I have >> gone >> > through the process, but I'd like to buy a set or two as I have a few >> > keyboards to repair. it's a time consuming process. >> > Thanks in advance. >> > Bill >> >> He?s still out there >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-9000-SIRIUS-1-Keyboard-repair >> -Foam-Pads-for-KeyTronic-Keyboards/121266887970 > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 07:49:57 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 08:49:57 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> Message-ID: One other thing....my use of the term "pad"...There is the metallic disk "pad" that goes on top of the foam pad. I should have said metallic disk when referring to the contact that sits on top of the foam pad. b On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 8:47 AM, william degnan wrote: > Upon closer inspection, these are pads only. I am looking for the pads > with new metallic contacts attached, too. The metallic pads also decay and > need to be replaced. I have been able to re-use some but they're never > 100% good. The surface gets coated with something that causes them to > loose the desired properties and cleaning does not always help. I have a > punch to create my own pads, and I *could* make metallic pads from a space > blanket or similar but I was hoping to find pre-made-ready-to-use > replacement pads instead. I could use 4 sets. > > Bill > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:51 AM, william degnan > wrote: > >> Thanks. I was searching with the wrong terms. >> >> Bill Degnan >> twitter: billdeg >> vintagecomputer.net >> On Dec 12, 2016 1:19 AM, "Peter Cetinski" wrote: >> >>> >>> > On Dec 11, 2016, at 5:17 PM, william degnan >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > There was a seller on ebay who had a set of the pre-made keyboard key >>> pads >>> > for sale...anyone here selling these? Yes I could make my own, I have >>> gone >>> > through the process, but I'd like to buy a set or two as I have a few >>> > keyboards to repair. it's a time consuming process. >>> > Thanks in advance. >>> > Bill >>> >>> He?s still out there >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-9000-SIRIUS-1-Keyboard-repair >>> -Foam-Pads-for-KeyTronic-Keyboards/121266887970 >> >> > From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 08:55:50 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 08:55:50 -0600 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> Message-ID: If it's not too much trouble, emergency blankets (aluminized mylar, I believe) work well for these keyboards, so long as you get them in the right direction, mylar side towards the keyboard. Seems like you could buy those, then stick them on the mylar and quickly cut them out. Kyle From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 10:57:52 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 08:57:52 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: <004701d25462$3c5b24a0$b5116de0$@xs4all.nl> References: <20161203201351.GC25128@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> <004701d25462$3c5b24a0$b5116de0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 2:26 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > >> I used HPDir to dup the two floppies from a physical 9121D drive into .HPI image >> files, then verified that the 1630D can access those .HPI image files loaded into >> HPDrive to emulate a 9121D drive. >> >> I can send those two .HPI image files to anyone who wants them. > > Glen, > > Could you upload them to http://www.ko4bb.com/ > So the measurement community can access them also? > > -Rik > I'll do that later. I should add a readme with some notes about exactly what the files are and how to use the images before I upload them. Otherwise most people will have no idea what they are. You know what to do with an .HPI image file, other people might not. On another note, did HP ever provide tools and documentation for writing Inverse Assemblers for the 1630 series? For the 1650 / 16500 series there is the 10391B Inverse Assembler Development Package which includes documentation, a compiler, and sample code. As far as I can tell the IA code space on the 1630 series must be limited to a total of 8KB as that is the total amount of EEPROM storage for saving an IA configuration on a 1630G. I wonder what sort of tools they used for writing IA for the 1630. -Glen From lists+cctalk at loomcom.com Mon Dec 12 12:04:15 2016 From: lists+cctalk at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:04:15 -0600 Subject: TOPS-20 Telnet and Port Forwading issue Message-ID: <20161212180414.GA25835@loomcom.com> Hi folks, I don't know if this is the best place to ask this question, but I don't know of any better forums for PDP-10 discussion, so hopefully it's on-topic enough. I recently set up the KLH10 PDP-10 emulator on my network, running TOPS-20 7.1. It's on a box in my 192.168.1.0/24 network. TCP/IP works great, I can telnet to it from within my network without any issue. I also set up my firewall (a box running CentOS 7.1) to port forward from external TCP port 2320 to internal TCP port 23 on the KLH10 box. Interestingly, when I telnet from _outside_ the network to my firewall's port 2320, it works, but Telnet goes into line mode rather than character mode! I can fix it with telnet escape (^]) by setting character mode explicitly with "mode character", but that's kind of annoying to do each time I connect. It feels like Telnet is no longer doing line mode / character mode negotiation when I'm port forwarding. It's most mysterious. If you want to see for yourself, you can telnet to gatekeeper.retronet.net 2320, which is the KLH10 instance. Does this ring any bells for anyone? -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 12:06:59 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 12:06:59 -0600 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit Message-ID: <244vgqs69esss1lkdjyg8i98.1481566019102@email.android.com> Did you ask on vcfed forums? I do recall a few years ago one or two folks offering to make sets although being years ago you may have been one of them :-) -------- Original message --------From: william degnan Date: 12/11/16 4:17 PM (GMT-06:00) To: cctech Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit There was a seller on ebay who had a set of the pre-made keyboard key pads for sale...anyone here selling these?? Yes I could make my own, I have gone through the process, but I'd like to buy a set or two as I have a few keyboards to repair.? it's a time consuming process. Thanks in advance. Bill From w9gb at icloud.com Mon Dec 12 13:04:12 2016 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 13:04:12 -0600 Subject: IBM Server 7587 Message-ID: <39EE24DC-4301-40AE-8B4A-3D33CC26CADF@icloud.com> IBM has had a number of "industrial computer" models. The IBM Server 7587 is a hardware platform designed for reliable 24 hour operation. It was often used in mid-1990s computer telephony interfaces (Pentium socket 7, up to 233 MHz). Responding to the customer's need for a powerful, reliable ISA bus computer that is easy to panel/wall mount and easy to service, IBM developed the IBM 7587. It is a 5 slot ISA/PCI passive backplane, PICMG compliant computer powered by an IBM Single Board Computer. The 7587 has a large filtered cooling fan that keeps the internal components well under their operating limits, even in hot environments. With its shock mounted hard disk drive and adapter hold down bracket, the system can withstand the shock and vibration found in many harsh work environments. Programming interfaces are supported for watchdog timer and thermal monitoring functions on the SBC. The system can operate without disk, display or keyboard. It is quick to service, with all internal components easily accessible after removing the top cover. Sent from iPad Air Sent from iPad Air From w9gb at icloud.com Mon Dec 12 13:08:51 2016 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 13:08:51 -0600 Subject: IBM Server 7587 In-Reply-To: <39EE24DC-4301-40AE-8B4A-3D33CC26CADF@icloud.com> References: <39EE24DC-4301-40AE-8B4A-3D33CC26CADF@icloud.com> Message-ID: This is the IBM Datasheet for the 586VE single board computer, used in model 7588. Very likely same Single Board, in that Industrial Chassis. http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/758x/586VE_SBC_Information.pdf Sent from iPad Air > On Dec 12, 2016, at 1:04 PM, Gregory Beat wrote: > > IBM has had a number of "industrial computer" models. > > The IBM Server 7587 is a hardware platform designed for reliable 24 hour operation. It was often used in mid-1990s computer telephony interfaces (Pentium socket 7, up to 233 MHz). > Responding to the customer's need for a powerful, reliable ISA bus computer that is easy to panel/wall mount and easy to service, IBM developed the IBM 7587. > > It is a 5 slot ISA/PCI passive backplane, PICMG compliant computer powered by an IBM Single Board Computer. The 7587 has a large filtered cooling fan that keeps the internal components well under their operating limits, even in hot environments. With its shock mounted hard disk drive and adapter hold down bracket, the system can withstand the shock and vibration found in many harsh work environments. > > Programming interfaces are supported for watchdog timer and thermal monitoring functions on the SBC. The system can operate without disk, display or keyboard. It is quick to service, with all internal components easily accessible after removing the top cover. > > Sent from iPad Air > > > Sent from iPad Air From w9gb at icloud.com Mon Dec 12 13:20:39 2016 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 13:20:39 -0600 Subject: IBM Server 7587 In-Reply-To: References: <39EE24DC-4301-40AE-8B4A-3D33CC26CADF@icloud.com> Message-ID: Here is the ZIP File for the IBM 7587 documentation. http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/758x/IBM_SBC_Systems.html Various IBM files http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/ g. beat chicago Sent from iPad Air > On Dec 12, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Gregory Beat wrote: > > This is the IBM Datasheet for the 586VE single board computer, used in model 7588. > Very likely same Single Board, in that Industrial Chassis. > http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/758x/586VE_SBC_Information.pdf > > Sent from iPad Air > >> On Dec 12, 2016, at 1:04 PM, Gregory Beat wrote: >> >> IBM has had a number of "industrial computer" models. >> >> The IBM Server 7587 is a hardware platform designed for reliable 24 hour operation. It was often used in mid-1990s computer telephony interfaces (Pentium socket 7, up to 233 MHz). >> Responding to the customer's need for a powerful, reliable ISA bus computer that is easy to panel/wall mount and easy to service, IBM developed the IBM 7587. >> >> It is a 5 slot ISA/PCI passive backplane, PICMG compliant computer powered by an IBM Single Board Computer. The 7587 has a large filtered cooling fan that keeps the internal components well under their operating limits, even in hot environments. With its shock mounted hard disk drive and adapter hold down bracket, the system can withstand the shock and vibration found in many harsh work environments. >> >> Programming interfaces are supported for watchdog timer and thermal monitoring functions on the SBC. The system can operate without disk, display or keyboard. It is quick to service, with all internal components easily accessible after removing the top cover. >> >> Sent from iPad Air >> >> >> Sent from iPad Air From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Dec 12 13:51:10 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 19:51:10 +0000 Subject: 6502 code Message-ID: Hi There has been so much PDP and other stuff lately I kind of feel out of place asking about 6502 stuff. Anyway, I've mentioned on the 6502.org that QuickSort is not always the fastest sort. So I wrote a 6502 assembly sort but don't have a machine big enough to test it on. I've only got my KIM-1 just working. I was hoping someone would like to help me out, possible a Commodore64, maybe even a PET or Apple II. It needs about 24 page zero bytes and about 5K of RAM. It sorts 1K of 16bit integers. Anyway, if someone would like to help, let me know. I've made several passes through the code and believe it to be close to bug free but know I'm bound to have a couple left. See it as a challenge! Thanks Dwight From ben at bensinclair.com Mon Dec 12 14:59:09 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 14:59:09 -0600 Subject: IBM Server 7587 In-Reply-To: References: <39EE24DC-4301-40AE-8B4A-3D33CC26CADF@icloud.com> Message-ID: Thanks! Mine just arrived a few moments ago. It powers up just fine, and appears to be a pretty standard PC with a Phoenix BIOS. It doesn't have a hard drive installed, but I'm planning to use an IDE to CF board. It's somewhat loud, so I might see about replacing the fans. I can't imagine this gets very hot, but we'll see. On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Gregory Beat wrote: > Here is the ZIP File for the IBM 7587 documentation. > http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/758x/IBM_SBC_Systems.html > > Various IBM files > http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/ > > g. beat > chicago > > Sent from iPad Air > > > On Dec 12, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Gregory Beat wrote: > > > > This is the IBM Datasheet for the 586VE single board computer, used in > model 7588. > > Very likely same Single Board, in that Industrial Chassis. > > http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/758x/586VE_SBC_Information.pdf > > > > Sent from iPad Air > > > >> On Dec 12, 2016, at 1:04 PM, Gregory Beat wrote: > >> > >> IBM has had a number of "industrial computer" models. > >> > >> The IBM Server 7587 is a hardware platform designed for reliable 24 > hour operation. It was often used in mid-1990s computer telephony > interfaces (Pentium socket 7, up to 233 MHz). > >> Responding to the customer's need for a powerful, reliable ISA bus > computer that is easy to panel/wall mount and easy to service, IBM > developed the IBM 7587. > >> > >> It is a 5 slot ISA/PCI passive backplane, PICMG compliant computer > powered by an IBM Single Board Computer. The 7587 has a large filtered > cooling fan that keeps the internal components well under their operating > limits, even in hot environments. With its shock mounted hard disk drive > and adapter hold down bracket, the system can withstand the shock and > vibration found in many harsh work environments. > >> > >> Programming interfaces are supported for watchdog timer and thermal > monitoring functions on the SBC. The system can operate without disk, > display or keyboard. It is quick to service, with all internal components > easily accessible after removing the top cover. > >> > >> Sent from iPad Air > >> > >> > >> Sent from iPad Air > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Dec 13 00:10:57 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 23:10:57 -0700 Subject: TOPS-20 Telnet and Port Forwading issue In-Reply-To: <20161212180414.GA25835@loomcom.com> References: <20161212180414.GA25835@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hi folks, > > I don't know if this is the best place to ask this question, but I don't > know of any better forums for PDP-10 discussion, so hopefully it's > on-topic enough. > > I recently set up the KLH10 PDP-10 emulator on my network, running > TOPS-20 7.1. It's on a box in my 192.168.1.0/24 network. TCP/IP works > great, I can telnet to it from within my network without any issue. > > I also set up my firewall (a box running CentOS 7.1) to port forward > from external TCP port 2320 to internal TCP port 23 on the KLH10 box. > > Interestingly, when I telnet from _outside_ the network to my firewall's > port 2320, it works, but Telnet goes into line mode rather than > character mode! I can fix it with telnet escape (^]) by setting > character mode explicitly with "mode character", but that's kind of > annoying to do each time I connect. > > It feels like Telnet is no longer doing line mode / character mode > negotiation when I'm port forwarding. It's most mysterious. > > If you want to see for yourself, you can telnet to > gatekeeper.retronet.net 2320, which is the KLH10 instance. > > Does this ring any bells for anyone? I'm guessing that this is the classic "Many telnet clients default to line mode for only for port 23." issue. Warner From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Dec 13 00:15:54 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 23:15:54 -0700 Subject: TOPS-20 Telnet and Port Forwading issue In-Reply-To: References: <20161212180414.GA25835@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 11:10 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Seth Morabito > wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> I don't know if this is the best place to ask this question, but I don't >> know of any better forums for PDP-10 discussion, so hopefully it's >> on-topic enough. >> >> I recently set up the KLH10 PDP-10 emulator on my network, running >> TOPS-20 7.1. It's on a box in my 192.168.1.0/24 network. TCP/IP works >> great, I can telnet to it from within my network without any issue. >> >> I also set up my firewall (a box running CentOS 7.1) to port forward >> from external TCP port 2320 to internal TCP port 23 on the KLH10 box. >> >> Interestingly, when I telnet from _outside_ the network to my firewall's >> port 2320, it works, but Telnet goes into line mode rather than >> character mode! I can fix it with telnet escape (^]) by setting >> character mode explicitly with "mode character", but that's kind of >> annoying to do each time I connect. >> >> It feels like Telnet is no longer doing line mode / character mode >> negotiation when I'm port forwarding. It's most mysterious. >> >> If you want to see for yourself, you can telnet to >> gatekeeper.retronet.net 2320, which is the KLH10 instance. >> >> Does this ring any bells for anyone? > > I'm guessing that this is the classic "Many telnet clients default to > line mode for only for port 23." issue. For a recent telnet in FreeBSD, I had to do a 'mode linemode' before it would behave like you are describing. Connect, hit return, hit the escape character (traditional one is ^]). mode linemode . then I saw local echo and things looked approximately like I'd expect. Warner From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 13 01:20:51 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 02:20:51 -0500 Subject: 6502 code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great dwight once stated: > Hi > > There has been so much PDP and other stuff lately I kind of feel out of place > asking about 6502 stuff. > > Anyway, I've mentioned on the 6502.org that QuickSort is not always the fastest > sort. So I wrote a 6502 assembly sort but don't have a machine big enough to test it > on. I've only got my KIM-1 just working. > > I was hoping someone would like to help me out, possible a Commodore64, > maybe even a PET or Apple II. > > It needs about 24 page zero bytes and about 5K of RAM. > > It sorts 1K of 16bit integers. > > Anyway, if someone would like to help, let me know. I've made several passes > through the code and believe it to be close to bug free but know I'm bound > to have a couple left. > > See it as a challenge! If you have a modern system, you could always download a 6502 emulator and test it on that. Such a tactic wasn't even unheard of in the day---if I recall correctly, that's how Gates & Co. tested their first BASIC---on an emulated 8080. -spc From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 13 01:20:51 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 02:20:51 -0500 Subject: 6502 code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great dwight once stated: > Hi > > There has been so much PDP and other stuff lately I kind of feel out of place > asking about 6502 stuff. > > Anyway, I've mentioned on the 6502.org that QuickSort is not always the fastest > sort. So I wrote a 6502 assembly sort but don't have a machine big enough to test it > on. I've only got my KIM-1 just working. > > I was hoping someone would like to help me out, possible a Commodore64, > maybe even a PET or Apple II. > > It needs about 24 page zero bytes and about 5K of RAM. > > It sorts 1K of 16bit integers. > > Anyway, if someone would like to help, let me know. I've made several passes > through the code and believe it to be close to bug free but know I'm bound > to have a couple left. > > See it as a challenge! If you have a modern system, you could always download a 6502 emulator and test it on that. Such a tactic wasn't even unheard of in the day---if I recall correctly, that's how Gates & Co. tested their first BASIC---on an emulated 8080. -spc From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 01:22:43 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 01:22:43 -0600 Subject: 6502 code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, More than happy to help you, I have native C64 and C128 available. Check your personal email for my address.. just send the code along. On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 1:51 PM, dwight wrote: > Hi > > There has been so much PDP and other stuff lately I kind of feel out of > place > > asking about 6502 stuff. > > Anyway, I've mentioned on the 6502.org that QuickSort is not always the > fastest > > sort. So I wrote a 6502 assembly sort but don't have a machine big enough > to test it > > on. I've only got my KIM-1 just working. > > I was hoping someone would like to help me out, possible a Commodore64, > > maybe even a PET or Apple II. > > It needs about 24 page zero bytes and about 5K of RAM. > > It sorts 1K of 16bit integers. > > Anyway, if someone would like to help, let me know. I've made several > passes > > through the code and believe it to be close to bug free but know I'm bound > > to have a couple left. > > See it as a challenge! > > Thanks > > Dwight > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 01:27:54 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 01:27:54 -0600 Subject: 6502 code In-Reply-To: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> References: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: @Sean I was wondering the same, but perhaps he needs physical hardware for some specific purposes, like timing and so forth? The emus (VICE) are quite good these days, though. I can hardly find anything that VICE x64 won't run. On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great dwight once stated: > > Hi > > > > There has been so much PDP and other stuff lately I kind of feel out of > place > > asking about 6502 stuff. > > > > Anyway, I've mentioned on the 6502.org that QuickSort is not always the > fastest > > sort. So I wrote a 6502 assembly sort but don't have a machine big > enough to test it > > on. I've only got my KIM-1 just working. > > > > I was hoping someone would like to help me out, possible a Commodore64, > > maybe even a PET or Apple II. > > > > It needs about 24 page zero bytes and about 5K of RAM. > > > > It sorts 1K of 16bit integers. > > > > Anyway, if someone would like to help, let me know. I've made several > passes > > through the code and believe it to be close to bug free but know I'm > bound > > to have a couple left. > > > > See it as a challenge! > > If you have a modern system, you could always download a 6502 emulator > and > test it on that. Such a tactic wasn't even unheard of in the day---if I > recall correctly, that's how Gates & Co. tested their first BASIC---on an > emulated 8080. > > -spc > > From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 13 02:56:49 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 03:56:49 -0500 Subject: 6502 code In-Reply-To: References: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20161213085649.GE1721@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great drlegendre . once stated: > @Sean > > I was wondering the same, but perhaps he needs physical hardware for some > specific purposes, like timing and so forth? The 6502 (as well as many of the other 8-bit CPUs of that era) are deterministic to the point where published cycles counts for instructions are an accurate measure of speed. All you need is a cycle count to know how fast a sequence of code is running. -spc From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 13 05:44:44 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 11:44:44 +0000 (WET) Subject: 6502 code In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 12 Dec 2016 19:51:10 +0000" Message-ID: <01Q8FJTB4D1M001N6Y@beyondthepale.ie> > Hi > > There has been so much PDP and other stuff lately I kind of feel out of place > asking about 6502 stuff. > > Anyway, I've mentioned on the 6502.org that QuickSort is not always the > fastest sort. So I wrote a 6502 assembly sort but don't have a machine big > enough to test it > > on. I've only got my KIM-1 just working. > > I was hoping someone would like to help me out, possible a Commodore64, > maybe even a PET or Apple II. > > It needs about 24 page zero bytes and about 5K of RAM. > > It sorts 1K of 16bit integers. > > Anyway, if someone would like to help, let me know. I've made several passes > through the code and believe it to be close to bug free but know I'm bound > to have a couple left. > > See it as a challenge! > > Thanks > > Dwight > I can try it on a BBC Micro if you'd like. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From pete at pski.net Tue Dec 13 06:19:01 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:19:01 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> Message-ID: I haven't had the greatest success with the Mylar blankets on my Tandy 6000 keyboards. Some of the keys would act flaky and result in garbage characters on the screen. I had to replace those problematic keys with original discs. But, I rebuilt a Model II keyboard where the blanket discs work fine. I think the properties of those keytronic discs are slightly different. Pete > On Dec 12, 2016, at 9:55 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > If it's not too much trouble, emergency blankets (aluminized mylar, I > believe) work well for these keyboards, so long as you get them in the > right direction, mylar side towards the keyboard. Seems like you could buy > those, then stick them on the mylar and quickly cut them out. > > Kyle From pete at pski.net Tue Dec 13 06:19:01 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:19:01 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> Message-ID: I haven't had the greatest success with the Mylar blankets on my Tandy 6000 keyboards. Some of the keys would act flaky and result in garbage characters on the screen. I had to replace those problematic keys with original discs. But, I rebuilt a Model II keyboard where the blanket discs work fine. I think the properties of those keytronic discs are slightly different. Pete > On Dec 12, 2016, at 9:55 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > If it's not too much trouble, emergency blankets (aluminized mylar, I > believe) work well for these keyboards, so long as you get them in the > right direction, mylar side towards the keyboard. Seems like you could buy > those, then stick them on the mylar and quickly cut them out. > > Kyle From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 13 06:02:51 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 12:02:51 +0000 (WET) Subject: TOPS-20 Telnet and Port Forwading issue In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 12 Dec 2016 23:10:57 -0700" References: <20161212180414.GA25835@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <01Q8FL0LI8ZG001N6Y@beyondthepale.ie> On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 23:10:57 -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Seth Morabito > wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > I don't know if this is the best place to ask this question, but I don't > > know of any better forums for PDP-10 discussion, so hopefully it's > > on-topic enough. > > > > I recently set up the KLH10 PDP-10 emulator on my network, running > > TOPS-20 7.1. It's on a box in my 192.168.1.0/24 network. TCP/IP works > > great, I can telnet to it from within my network without any issue. > > > > I also set up my firewall (a box running CentOS 7.1) to port forward > > from external TCP port 2320 to internal TCP port 23 on the KLH10 box. > > > > Interestingly, when I telnet from _outside_ the network to my firewall's > > port 2320, it works, but Telnet goes into line mode rather than > > character mode! I can fix it with telnet escape (^]) by setting > > character mode explicitly with "mode character", but that's kind of > > annoying to do each time I connect. > > > > It feels like Telnet is no longer doing line mode / character mode > > negotiation when I'm port forwarding. It's most mysterious. > > > > If you want to see for yourself, you can telnet to > > gatekeeper.retronet.net 2320, which is the KLH10 instance. > > > > Does this ring any bells for anyone? > > I'm guessing that this is the classic "Many telnet clients default to > line mode for only for port 23." issue. > > Warner I've tried connecting using the Multinet telnet client under VMS. It seems to work fine. However, this telnet client does not seem to have a way to manually set line mode versus character mode so I don't seem to have a way of simulating the problem to ensure that I am not seeing it. Typing a question mark on it's own without pressing return results in a list of commands being displayed so I think I am in character mode and this is the expected behaviour. I would agree with what Warner said regarding many telnet clients, except maybe he meant they default to line mode for ports other than port 23. You could test the theory by temporarily port forwarding external port 23 to the emulator. Bear in mind that you will probably get lots of botnets trying to break in on that port while you are testing. Another possibility is that if the firewall is trying to be clever, it might be intercepting the telnet negotiations instead of just doing straightforward port forwarding. I used to come across a lot of commercial firewall products generally sticking their nose in where it wasn't wanted and making a mess (of SMTP for example) but it doesn't sound like you are using one of those devices. Regards, Peter Coghlan From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 06:46:06 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:46:06 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> Message-ID: I've had good luck with Apple Lisa's, Processor Technology Sol-20s, Dynalogic Hyperions and a TRS-80 model II keyboard. I make my own with weather stripping (sticky on one side), two sided tape and silver gift wrapping (mylar). I would re-use the original plastic disk (after cleaning them up) or I cut out overhead projector transparancies if I had to. It is a chore but I made hundreds once and am almost out now. Here's a pic: http://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/keyboard-foam-pads.jpg On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > I haven't had the greatest success with the Mylar blankets on my Tandy > 6000 keyboards. Some of the keys would act flaky and result in garbage > characters on the screen. I had to replace those problematic keys with > original discs. But, I rebuilt a Model II keyboard where the blanket discs > work fine. I think the properties of those keytronic discs are slightly > different. > > Pete > > > On Dec 12, 2016, at 9:55 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > > > If it's not too much trouble, emergency blankets (aluminized mylar, I > > believe) work well for these keyboards, so long as you get them in the > > right direction, mylar side towards the keyboard. Seems like you could > buy > > those, then stick them on the mylar and quickly cut them out. > > > > Kyle > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 06:46:06 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:46:06 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> Message-ID: I've had good luck with Apple Lisa's, Processor Technology Sol-20s, Dynalogic Hyperions and a TRS-80 model II keyboard. I make my own with weather stripping (sticky on one side), two sided tape and silver gift wrapping (mylar). I would re-use the original plastic disk (after cleaning them up) or I cut out overhead projector transparancies if I had to. It is a chore but I made hundreds once and am almost out now. Here's a pic: http://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/keyboard-foam-pads.jpg On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > I haven't had the greatest success with the Mylar blankets on my Tandy > 6000 keyboards. Some of the keys would act flaky and result in garbage > characters on the screen. I had to replace those problematic keys with > original discs. But, I rebuilt a Model II keyboard where the blanket discs > work fine. I think the properties of those keytronic discs are slightly > different. > > Pete > > > On Dec 12, 2016, at 9:55 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > > > If it's not too much trouble, emergency blankets (aluminized mylar, I > > believe) work well for these keyboards, so long as you get them in the > > right direction, mylar side towards the keyboard. Seems like you could > buy > > those, then stick them on the mylar and quickly cut them out. > > > > Kyle > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 09:19:03 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:19:03 -0800 Subject: 6502 code In-Reply-To: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> References: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 11:20 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > If you have a modern system, you could always download a 6502 emulator > and > test it on that. Such a tactic wasn't even unheard of in the day---if I > recall correctly, that's how Gates & Co. tested their first BASIC---on an > emulated 8080. > > Circa 1982, I was developing Atari 800 software on a on emulator I wrote in FORTRAN on a VAX. -- Charles From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 09:19:03 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:19:03 -0800 Subject: 6502 code In-Reply-To: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> References: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 11:20 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > If you have a modern system, you could always download a 6502 emulator > and > test it on that. Such a tactic wasn't even unheard of in the day---if I > recall correctly, that's how Gates & Co. tested their first BASIC---on an > emulated 8080. > > Circa 1982, I was developing Atari 800 software on a on emulator I wrote in FORTRAN on a VAX. -- Charles From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Dec 13 09:52:49 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:52:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: TOPS-20 Telnet and Port Forwading issue In-Reply-To: <20161212180414.GA25835@loomcom.com> References: <20161212180414.GA25835@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <201612131552.KAA25901@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Interestingly, when I telnet from _outside_ the network to my > firewall's port 2320, it works, but Telnet goes into line mode rather > than character mode! Probably, as I think someone said, telnet noticing it's not using the standard telnet port and not even trying to go character-at-a-time. I did a telnet myself, snooping the network traffic, and... me -> you SYN you -> me SYN|ACK me -> you ACK you -> me data: IAC WILL ECHO me -> you data: IAC DO ECHO you -> me data: \r\n DECTEN, PANDA TOPS-20... Nowhere, in particular, is there any attempt at LINEMODE negotiation. And, when I type ?, nothing is sent until I press RETURN, upon which my end sends ?\r\n. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 10:24:36 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 11:24:36 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > I haven't had the greatest success with the Mylar blankets on my Tandy 6000 keyboards... I've heard of people using mylar balloons or mylar potato chip bags. I'm sure there are some analog effects that come into play and perhaps one type won't work for all. -ethan From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 10:41:14 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 11:41:14 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > > I haven't had the greatest success with the Mylar blankets on my Tandy > 6000 keyboards... > > I've heard of people using mylar balloons or mylar potato chip bags. > I'm sure there are some analog effects that come into play and perhaps > one type won't work for all. > > -ethan > All true but I was asking in my original post if anyone knew of anyone who makes the finished product, with the mylar or similar contact disk adhered to the foam pad, new. I have made these, but I was thinking why buy a blanket and make little disks etc. if someone else sells these replacement pads ready to go, already. Thanks Bill From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 13 11:07:10 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:07:10 -0800 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <49025f79-dd42-7300-0ec1-4b1ef021a0cc@bitsavers.org> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161212165506.GA34164@beast.freibergnet.de> <49025f79-dd42-7300-0ec1-4b1ef021a0cc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9a9c703e-79a3-ed5f-c1e1-6ba47ce0fbdc@bitsavers.org> On 12/12/16 10:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I also need to dig out the chassis to see what model number mine is. > None of the boards have Unibus connectors out the top. > > I also put up a couple of Megatek related documents and a product announcement > for the 7000 on bitsavers. > > I took another look at my boards, and they are also from a 7000 with a Unibus interface. Yours looks like it supports two displays, and it has a lot of memory. Mine only has a single 16k x 32 ram board, but has a rotation board (probably a matrix multiplier) and a board with a microprocessor, probably for a keyboard. I think that most of the backplane may just be bussed, with 16 bit adr and 32 bit data. My memory board looks like yours with the row of 82s137s and 16K drams. If you look at the edge connector, most of the wiring goes to buffers which obviously are adr and data. I'm a little worried about how many bipolar proms are on these boards, and the chances of bit rot in them. The functions of each of the cards and part number are etched on the edge opposite of the edge connector. I'm wondering if your unit is for two raster displays, since it seems to have 4 coaxial connectors for each output. There is probably microcode on the 2901 board for the basic instruction set, I notice some number of bipolar proms arranged in a row on there. I doubt that the prom/dram memory board would be for microcode. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 13 10:56:27 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:56:27 +0000 (WET) Subject: TOPS-20 Telnet and Port Forwading issue In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:52:49 -0500 (EST)" <201612131552.KAA25901@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20161212180414.GA25835@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <01Q8FV5AEWXG001N6Y@beyondthepale.ie> > > > Interestingly, when I telnet from _outside_ the network to my > > firewall's port 2320, it works, but Telnet goes into line mode rather > > than character mode! > > Probably, as I think someone said, telnet noticing it's not using the > standard telnet port and not even trying to go character-at-a-time. > > I did a telnet myself, snooping the network traffic, and... > > me -> you SYN > you -> me SYN|ACK > me -> you ACK > you -> me data: IAC WILL ECHO > me -> you data: IAC DO ECHO > you -> me data: \r\n DECTEN, PANDA TOPS-20... > > Nowhere, in particular, is there any attempt at LINEMODE negotiation. > And, when I type ?, nothing is sent until I press RETURN, upon which my > end sends ?\r\n. > I tried doing a similar test to Mouse for comparison given that my telnet client seems to be producing the desired behaviour (whether by accident or by design I am not sure). Here are the results and my interpretation of them which may not be correct as I am a bit rusty on this stuff: me -> you SYN you -> me SYN|ACK me -> you ACK you -> me data: fffb 0100 0000 (IAC WILL ECHO) me -> you data: fffd 03ff fd01 (IAC DO SUPPRESS GO AHEAD, IAC DO ECHO) you -> me data: fffb 0300 0000 (IAC WILL SUPPRESS GO AHEAD) me -> you ACK you -> me data: \r\n DECTEN, PANDA TOPS-20... Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 13 11:21:04 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:21:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6502 code In-Reply-To: References: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: >> If you have a modern system, you could always download a 6502 >> emulator and test it on that. Such a tactic wasn't even unheard of in >> the day---if I recall correctly, that's how Gates & Co. tested their >> first BASIC---on an emulated 8080. On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, drlegendre . wrote: > I was wondering the same, but perhaps he needs physical hardware for some > specific purposes, like timing and so forth? Creating the code, certainly. But TESTING must be done on the real thing! Even bug for bug emulation is never certain. In XenoSoft, I often used faster clones for writing code, but always tested on REAL IBM hardware. One of the problems with Microsoft software has traditionally been that they developed their exception handlers by simulating the conditions, but did NOT test on actual flaky hardware. Such as the 64K DMA boundary isssue that caused FORMAT to fail with certain combinations of device drivers loaded. (FORMAT would consistently fail in track 0, but removing or adding ANY device driver would fix it!) Or the gross mismanagement of testing that created the SMARTDRV debacle! A disk write error in Windoze 3.10 installation crashed the installation and the machine. And any disk write error was unrecoverable data loss with write cacheing! They had to do FREE "stepup"/"update" from DOS 6.00 to DOS 6.2x because of it, and irreparably damaged their reputation. It only needed ONE encounter with a disk write error during the windoze 3.10 installation to find and recognize the problem! Telephone support of their Beta testers blew it off whenever it was reported as being "your hardware, not OUR problem", ignoring protestations that the OS should gracefully report the problem, not lock up. MOST of Microsoft's faults would have been fixed if they were to have done their testing with the same level of hardware as what their users had! "software that is too slow is YOUR fault for not upgrading your hardware in the last six months!" Cross development is wonderful. But testing MUST be done on exactly the same hardware and software environment as the users! Having software work on the real thing but fail on clones (XenoCopy 1.000 aka "XenoPhobe : The Acid Test"), is embarrassing. But working on clones but failing on the real thing is inexcusable! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 13 12:53:17 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:53:17 +0000 Subject: 6502 code In-Reply-To: References: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> , Message-ID: I'm not that much into learning how to use an emulator. I'll admit for something like this it might be fine but I find that most are not well written for things like I/O connections, timed events or random events. Sometimes that is needed. I have three volunteers so far. That should be fine. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:21:04 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 6502 code >> If you have a modern system, you could always download a 6502 >> emulator and test it on that. Such a tactic wasn't even unheard of in >> the day---if I recall correctly, that's how Gates & Co. tested their >> first BASIC---on an emulated 8080. On Tue, 13 Dec 2016, drlegendre . wrote: > I was wondering the same, but perhaps he needs physical hardware for some > specific purposes, like timing and so forth? Creating the code, certainly. But TESTING must be done on the real thing! Even bug for bug emulation is never certain. In XenoSoft, I often used faster clones for writing code, but always tested on REAL IBM hardware. One of the problems with Microsoft software has traditionally been that they developed their exception handlers by simulating the conditions, but did NOT test on actual flaky hardware. Such as the 64K DMA boundary isssue that caused FORMAT to fail with certain combinations of device drivers loaded. (FORMAT would consistently fail in track 0, but removing or adding ANY device driver would fix it!) Or the gross mismanagement of testing that created the SMARTDRV debacle! A disk write error in Windoze 3.10 installation crashed the installation and the machine. And any disk write error was unrecoverable data loss with write cacheing! They had to do FREE "stepup"/"update" from DOS 6.00 to DOS 6.2x because of it, and irreparably damaged their reputation. It only needed ONE encounter with a disk write error during the windoze 3.10 installation to find and recognize the problem! Telephone support of their Beta testers blew it off whenever it was reported as being "your hardware, not OUR problem", ignoring protestations that the OS should gracefully report the problem, not lock up. MOST of Microsoft's faults would have been fixed if they were to have done their testing with the same level of hardware as what their users had! "software that is too slow is YOUR fault for not upgrading your hardware in the last six months!" Cross development is wonderful. But testing MUST be done on exactly the same hardware and software environment as the users! Having software work on the real thing but fail on clones (XenoCopy 1.000 aka "XenoPhobe : The Acid Test"), is embarrassing. But working on clones but failing on the real thing is inexcusable! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 13 12:58:21 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:58:21 -0800 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <9a9c703e-79a3-ed5f-c1e1-6ba47ce0fbdc@bitsavers.org> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161212165506.GA34164@beast.freibergnet.de> <49025f79-dd42-7300-0ec1-4b1ef021a0cc@bitsavers.org> <9a9c703e-79a3-ed5f-c1e1-6ba47ce0fbdc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4c706ee1-e539-e427-284c-39904acf01dd@bitsavers.org> a product spec for the 7000 is up now on bitsavers. there are two busses, graphics and peripheral. On 12/13/16 9:07 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I think that most of the backplane may just be bussed, with 16 bit adr and 32 bit data. > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 13:08:32 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 12:08:32 -0700 Subject: TOPS-20 Telnet and Port Forwading issue In-Reply-To: <01Q8FV5AEWXG001N6Y@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20161212180414.GA25835@loomcom.com> <201612131552.KAA25901@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01Q8FV5AEWXG001N6Y@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: It's the SGA (suppress go-ahead) negotiation that's necessary to avoid line mode. Many telnet clients don't try to negotiate any telnet options if you connect to a non-standard port, because they assume that you're talking to something other than a telnet server, and that you therefore want an 8-bit transparent connection with local line editing. Examples would be to telnet to an SMTP server, FTP server, etc. for testing purposes. A telnet client that has that behavior but no provision for overriding it is defective, and should either be fixed, if possible, or deleted with prejudice. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Dec 13 14:01:29 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:01:29 +0000 (WET) Subject: TOPS-20 Telnet and Port Forwading issue In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 13 Dec 2016 12:08:32 -0700" References: <20161212180414.GA25835@loomcom.com> <201612131552.KAA25901@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01Q8FV5AEWXG001N6Y@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01Q8G25SRABO001N6Y@beyondthepale.ie> > > It's the SGA (suppress go-ahead) negotiation that's necessary to avoid line > mode. > > Many telnet clients don't try to negotiate any telnet options if you > connect to a non-standard port, because they assume that you're talking to > something other than a telnet server, and that you therefore want an 8-bit > transparent connection with local line editing. Examples would be to telnet > to an SMTP server, FTP server, etc. for testing purposes. > > A telnet client that has that behavior but no provision for overriding it > is defective, and should either be fixed, if possible, or deleted with > prejudice. > My telnet client works just fine for testing SMTP servers etc. I suspect that it only decides to issue the SGA on ports other than the standard telnet port when the server at the other end has already revealed that it is a telnet server by sending out some telnet negotiation from it's side. (I do recall a customer once insisting to me that I would not be able to use a telnet client to connect to his SMTP server to test it because the two aren't compatible or something. At the time, it was something I did every day of the week but there was no convincing him.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Dec 13 14:42:02 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 21:42:02 +0100 Subject: SGI Indigo Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161213204202.GL2578@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 10:59:36AM -0500, ethan at 757.org wrote: > >Damn, you're right, that's the pinout for the Indy. I have both an Indy and > >an Indigo with a modified ATX power supply. > > You're running an Indigo on ATX power supply guts? Interesting. My co-worker > has a SGI Fuel on his desk with a bad PSU and has talked about converting > it. I've done that conversion and documented in on nekochan. There are some caveats. /P From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Dec 13 18:59:09 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:59:09 -0800 Subject: ARPAnet maps Message-ID: <88f42054-5fc3-1a20-1767-67d07c7048c4@jwsss.com> A friend posted an interesting map of the network as it grew (his interest was the 1981 map) of Arpanet interconnects. They range from the beginning to at least that map. I can't share that one both because it's on Facebook, and because it was low quality having been bastardized by FB and I couldn't find it online. There are a huge number indexed on google if you care to look. Just put in "arpanet logical map" to get huge numbers of maps. I don't know if anyone has made an index, but with the number there are it would be an interesting exercise to do a chronological and map graph index of the information. Anyway one map caught my eye, showing a "MICRO810" at UCSD. I am hoping maybe it was a Microdata 810, but have no way of looking it up. The box immediately above is B6700, so it may be doing some sort of front end for that system. The node names were said to be IMP names on one of the maps I found, and one would hope that IMP's had all the frontend support to go to most mainframes. thanks Jim January 1975 map on sympatico.ca n.rieck account maybe? http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/vms_vs_unix.html image link if you can get it to work https://public.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y3pO0l02Dnf4e9HK-IeRoPuXuAFGKavc7GL2tCV2JB5PL2fWaI309VKcsmBPOOdlsJ5j6aMur2PVOEx48PG_ZYCvZDfp6UrabPrMqfpSvDXq3HMD3Q_fvxajgJNtGLfiqD5RxfLu9D8bln0mvy2XbBz4A/1975_01_arpanet_map.gif?rdrts=156300715 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 13 20:17:04 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:17:04 -0800 Subject: ARPAnet maps In-Reply-To: <88f42054-5fc3-1a20-1767-67d07c7048c4@jwsss.com> References: <88f42054-5fc3-1a20-1767-67d07c7048c4@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 12/13/16 4:59 PM, jim stephens wrote: > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/vms_vs_unix.html > The '71 map shows the 810 connected to an IMP and no 6700 which implies to me that the 810 was working as a TIP From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 13 20:32:30 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:32:30 -0800 Subject: ARPAnet maps In-Reply-To: References: <88f42054-5fc3-1a20-1767-67d07c7048c4@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <0c9b2094-0220-d062-4d51-2e8a7964b642@bitsavers.org> http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED097913.pdf is interesting. Jef Raskin and a Microdata 800 at UCSD On 12/13/16 6:17 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 12/13/16 4:59 PM, jim stephens wrote: > >> http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/vms_vs_unix.html >> > The '71 map shows the 810 connected to an IMP and no 6700 which implies to me that the 810 was working as a TIP > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 22:25:07 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 23:25:07 -0500 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <1FFD331E-DD61-4BBA-AE6A-1053B9C56D1C@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <62098BE0-1EC4-490C-94CE-DB5DC078C4B3@gmail.com> <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> <20160926233318.15662cf0@asrock.bcwi.net> <262FDB45-A33A-4F0D-BADD-19FAC76BA868@gmail.com> <1FFD331E-DD61-4BBA-AE6A-1053B9C56D1C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2C586782-ACCB-49DB-A0EF-453AB1063403@gmail.com> Session 12 https://youtu.be/XhIohWr10kU We were happy and humbled to get a friendly visit from David Boggs (Alto engineer, co-inventor of Ethernet) and Ron Crane (also ex-Xerox, co-founder of 3Com with Bob Metcalfe, and CHM restoration team colleague). > On Nov 23, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > > Session 11 video: > https://youtu.be/OKakermaQ68 > >> On Oct 13, 2016, at 12:10 AM, Curious Marc wrote: >> >> Session 9 here gets us into microcode RAM trouble: >> https://youtu.be/VWQ7hbV7bN0 >> Ken?s corresponding blog article >> http://www.righto.com/2016/10/restoring-ycs-xerox-alto-day-9-tracing.html >> >> Marc >> >> And it finally boots on session 8! >> https://youtu.be/9OQMhvArI9g >> >> > On Sep 10, 2016, at 7:46 PM, CuriousMarc >> > wrote: >> > >> > Video of session 6 is up: >> > https://youtu.be/b7yVhMT7tr4 >> > Found our first bad IC. Probably not our last one. >> > >> > >> > On 9/3/16 11:08 PM, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: >> > Episode 5, still does not boot, but we are starting to follow long >> > why: https://youtu.be/Wr7vDZpniNIr >> > >> > Marc >> > >> > >> > On Jul 31, 2016, at 6:12 PM, CuriousMarc >> > wrote: >> > Next Episode: >> > https://youtu.be/EDw8U1a6s78 >> > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_31.html >> > Marc >> > >> > From: Curious Marc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 2:01 AM >> > To: Curious Marc; cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > Subject: Re: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto >> > machines >> > Ken's in-depth blog post to go with the previous video >> > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_11.html >> > >> > On Jul 5, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Curious Marc >> > wrote: >> > Video from yesterday?s work on the Diablo cartridge disc: >> > https://youtu.be/PR5LkQugBE0 >> > Should be up in a few minutes. >> > We were tickled pink to have official representation from PARC >> > (former Xerox Parc) at the session. Marc >> > >> > Ken?s new post on the monitor repair to go with my previous video. >> > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html >> > Al Kossow got us a new CRT tube, so we are probably going to try >> > that this week-end. Marc >> > >> > >> > Latest entry from Ken Shirriff, trying out BCPL (ancestor of C). On >> > the emulator, not yet on the real machine: >> > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/hello-world-in-bcpl-language-on-xerox.html >> > Marc >> > >> > There are only two entries right now: >> > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html >> > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html >> > Marc >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> 73 AF6WS >> Bickley Consulting West Inc. >> http://bickleywest.com >> >> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" >> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 16:49:47 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:49:47 -0500 Subject: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register Message-ID: Hi, All, I'm disassembling a vintage program and ran across this bit of code that is causing emulators to hang... MYSUB: LD A,R JP M, MYSUB JR Z, MYSUB CP 0x65 RET M LD A, 0x32 RET I know plenty of 8-bit assembler (mostly 6502, 1802, and a couple others), but I'm by no means expert on the Z-80. It appears that this subroutine is spinning on the value of the refresh register if it's zero or negative, then if it's below 0x65, return the former contents of the refresh register and if not, return 0x32? If it helps, this is from a CP/M game. I'm wondering if this is some sort of randomizer or delay routine. So far, this loop hangs on all three emulators I've tried - simh's altairz80, simcpm010 for AmigaDOS, and EMUZ80 for Raspberry Pi. I'm guessing none of these environments emulate specific behavior of the Refresh register? Does anyone have any comments or insights about what this is really doing and what the right thing to do for emulators is? I can patch this if that's what's needed, but I'd like to understand it first. Thanks, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 16:51:54 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:51:54 -0500 Subject: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm disassembling a vintage program... > > MYSUB: > LD A,R... > > So far, this loop hangs on all three emulators I've tried - simh's > altairz80, simcpm010 for AmigaDOS, and EMUZ80 for Raspberry Pi. I'm > guessing none of these environments emulate specific behavior of the > Refresh register? I found this, BTW, which explains some of how the R register works... http://www.worldofspectrum.org/faq/reference/z80reference.htm#RRegister -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 16:56:13 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:56:13 -0500 Subject: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 5:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I'm disassembling a vintage program... >> >> MYSUB: >> LD A,R... I'm now thinking this is the RNG which is supposed to return a number from 0-100 in most cases, for calculating probability, which is something I know the app depends on. The real question becomes how to run this in emulation. -ethan From RichA at livingcomputers.org Tue Dec 13 18:00:46 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 00:00:46 +0000 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201612091843.uB9IhoG3022219@ultimate.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE94E2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDEAF2B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:38 PM > On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Rich Alderson > wrote: >> [1] For non-PDP10 programmers: The original architecture of the PDP-6 >> and PDP-10 used an 18-bit (256KW) address space. The KI-10 >> processor added a 22-bit pager and a concept of sections to the >> hardware. > As you say, the KI10 had 22-bit physical memory addressing, almost > identical to the "KI paging" of the later Model A KL10. There were two > PTEs per 36-bit word in the page table, with the five of the 18 bits > being the APWSX properties, and the remaining 13 being a physical page > number. The 13-bit physical page number was concatenated with the > offset into the 512-word page (low 9 bits of the virtual address) to > get the 22-bit physical address. > However, the KI10 did not have any "sections". Sections were introduced > with the Extended ("Model B", "KL paging") KL10. I knew that was wrong just as soon as I had hit "Send", but I also knew that I could count on one of the PDP-10 subgroup to fix that. Thanks! Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From shatle at nfldinet.com Tue Dec 13 19:50:38 2016 From: shatle at nfldinet.com (Steve Hatle) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:50:38 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue Message-ID: <20161213185038.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.1527724831.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> I acquired an ADM3-A a while back from the NWA auction, and a generous friend was able to get me the lower case ROM chip that was "missing" from my terminal. I set the DIP switches and installed the ROM. When I turned on the terminal, the whole screen was filled with "`" characters before the host was ever started. When I started up the connected Sun machine, the terminal did display both upper and lower case characters, but the "`" characters remained and appeared to fill out each new line, and text printed out by the machine was followed by garbage characters - like "Login:nzzzz". Typed characters were correctly upper or lower as typed. I removed the ROM and cleaned the legs of the chip. I didn't clean the socket, since I didn't have anything like DeOxit handy. I did remove and re-insert the ROM a couple of times. When I removed the ROM and set the DIPs back to the original setting, the terminal worked like normal in all upper case. Setting the DIPs to force upper case, etc. when the ROM was in always showed the bad behavior though the characters were upper/lower as you would expect from the switch settings. TL;DR - bad and extra characters when the ROM chip is in, everything OK when it's out. So, barring a bad connection to the chip while it's in the socket, it seems like the ROM itself could be bad. I'll dig through the maint manuals and see if I can find anything related to this behavior. In the meantime, any ideas from the collective are welcome. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 01:08:32 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:08:32 +0000 Subject: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I'm disassembling a vintage program and ran across this bit of code > that is causing emulators to hang... > > MYSUB: > LD A,R > JP M, MYSUB > JR Z, MYSUB > CP 0x65 > RET M > LD A, 0x32 > RET > > > I know plenty of 8-bit assembler (mostly 6502, 1802, and a couple > others), but I'm by no means expert on the Z-80. It appears that this > subroutine is spinning on the value of the refresh register if it's > zero or negative, then if it's below 0x65, return the former contents > of the refresh register and if not, return 0x32? Well, I'm not a programmer, but... As I understand it, the R register -- the refresh counter -- is actually a 7 bit counter. The top bit can be loaded or read, but when the refresh counter is incremented at the end of each instruction it will not be changed. This was actually a problem when using some types of 64K bit DRAMs which expected an 8 bit refresh address. The entire R registers is put on the low half of the address bus when RFSH/ is asserted, but only A0...A6 will be incremented. A7 will not change unless a program changes it. Which means that if R is negative (the top bit is set for some reason), MYSUB on a real Z80 will get into an endless loop. -tony From isking at uw.edu Wed Dec 14 01:30:25 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 23:30:25 -0800 Subject: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue In-Reply-To: <20161213185038.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.1527724831.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> References: <20161213185038.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.1527724831.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Steve Hatle wrote: > I acquired an ADM3-A a while back from the NWA auction, and a > generous friend was able to get me the lower case ROM chip that > was "missing" from my terminal. > > I set the DIP switches and installed the ROM. When I turned on the > terminal, the whole screen was filled with "`" characters before the > host was ever started. > > When I started up the connected Sun machine, the terminal did display > both upper and lower case characters, but the "`" characters remained > and appeared to fill out each new line, and text printed out by the > machine was followed by garbage characters - like "Login:nzzzz". Typed > characters were correctly upper or lower as typed. > > I removed the ROM and cleaned the legs of the chip. I didn't clean the > socket, since I didn't have anything like DeOxit handy. I did remove and > re-insert the ROM a couple of times. > > When I removed the ROM and set the DIPs back to the original setting, > the terminal worked like normal in all upper case. Setting the DIPs to > force upper case, etc. when the ROM was in always showed the bad > behavior though the characters were upper/lower as you would expect from > the switch settings. > > TL;DR - bad and extra characters when the ROM chip is in, everything OK > when it's out. > > So, barring a bad connection to the chip while it's in the socket, it > seems like the ROM itself could be bad. I'll dig through the maint > manuals and see if I can find anything related to this behavior. In the > meantime, any ideas from the collective are welcome. > Take a look at the silk screen on the board - ISTR there's another chip that needs to be added, some simple TTL logic. I converted mine several years ago without problems - but that was with the original ROM. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Dec 14 02:56:16 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 09:56:16 +0100 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <4c706ee1-e539-e427-284c-39904acf01dd@bitsavers.org> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161212165506.GA34164@beast.freibergnet.de> <49025f79-dd42-7300-0ec1-4b1ef021a0cc@bitsavers.org> <9a9c703e-79a3-ed5f-c1e1-6ba47ce0fbdc@bitsavers.org> <4c706ee1-e539-e427-284c-39904acf01dd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20161214085616.GA30213@beast.freibergnet.de> Al Kossow wrote: > a product spec for the 7000 is up now on bitsavers. > there are two busses, graphics and peripheral. > > > On 12/13/16 9:07 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I think that most of the backplane may just be bussed, with 16 bit adr and 32 bit data. > > Thanks Al for all the interesting documentation. I hope I'll have some time left over this weekend and I'll try to cleanup that thing a little bit and sort out wich cards I have. I have the same toughts about that Microcomputer Sandwich, seems to be an complete processor module including the microcode in the bipolar proms. As far as I understood, you now have found the AM2901 BitSlices in your machine? It where intersting to know in which order the boards in your system are placed. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Dec 14 03:07:34 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 10:07:34 +0100 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> <004701d25462$3c5b24a0$b5116de0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20161214090734.GB30213@beast.freibergnet.de> Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 2:26 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > >> I used HPDir to dup the two floppies from a physical 9121D drive into .HPI image > >> files, then verified that the 1630D can access those .HPI image files loaded into > >> HPDrive to emulate a 9121D drive. > >> > >> I can send those two .HPI image files to anyone who wants them. > > > > Glen, > > > > Could you upload them to http://www.ko4bb.com/ > > So the measurement community can access them also? > > > > -Rik > > > > I'll do that later. I should add a readme with some notes about > exactly what the files are and how to use the images before I upload > them. Otherwise most people will have no idea what they are. You know > what to do with an .HPI image file, other people might not. > > > On another note, did HP ever provide tools and documentation for > writing Inverse Assemblers for the 1630 series? For the 1650 / 16500 > series there is the 10391B Inverse Assembler Development Package which > includes documentation, a compiler, and sample code. As far as I can > tell the IA code space on the 1630 series must be limited to a total > of 8KB as that is the total amount of EEPROM storage for saving an IA > configuration on a 1630G. I wonder what sort of tools they used for > writing IA for the 1630. > > -Glen As far as I know I do have an HP IEEE488 ISA Board lying around somewhere, and I'l ltry to look at the stack of old Motherboards if I can find something with a "higher" CPU and ISA Slots to build a Windoze computer that can be connected to the 9121D Drive so that I can restore the images to disks. ... What about those LIF Utils (lifdump, lifimage)from Tony Duell (Tony??)? Can I make disks for the data, maybe by reordering sectors and such? I don't have a computer that natively runs some Linux currently, but installing a Kinux souldn't be a big problem. If I get your permission Glen, I'll upload the images to my pulblically reachable dumpster of old data (www.tiffe.de/Robotron) so that anyone can download them.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 14 03:55:50 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 01:55:50 -0800 Subject: EMACS folly In-Reply-To: <86a8c5efan.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A42@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <8660mvhqp3.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8FBD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <86a8c5efan.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <5adbcec7-2a17-5ca0-ae55-3b115ae28ee4@jwsss.com> > https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/qBRfbEjrGV8/3t35z8XYq8IJ > http://ftp.funet.fi/pub/unix/editors/teco/emacs11.tar.Z > I finally got around to looking at this before archiving it, and found that the shar file gets checksum errors when I run it with bash. Not sure what the problem is, but the files seemed to be clear (not total garbage). I also tried sh, which I don't think is any different than bash anymore. The script warns not to use csh. Also in the second one Pete put in the phone numbers for both he and the original author. Very thoughtful. :-) I was kind of hoping for a full emac executable, but then again probably wouldn't be room for that on an 11 of a smaller size. thanks Jim jws at jws2:~/cnas/projects/emacs/tmp$ bash raw Extracting README: Extracting bldemacs.tec: bldemacs.tec: Checksum error. Is: 13790, should be: 58310. Extracting emacs.doc: Extracting emacs.src: emacs.src: Checksum error. Is: 57446, should be: 43403. Extracting emacs.txt: Extracting emacs11.tec: emacs11.tec: Checksum error. Is: 32418, should be: 48995. Extracting vaxbld.tec: vaxbld.tec: Checksum error. Is: 34617, should be: 47133. ALL DONE BUNKY! From trash80 at internode.on.net Wed Dec 14 04:13:05 2016 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 21:13:05 +1100 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> Message-ID: <000301d255f2$a9a75c90$fcf615b0$@internode.on.net> These have metallic tops Bill - if you look closely you'll see some shiny bits - mine came with shiny tops Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Tuesday, 13 December 2016 00:48 To: cctech Subject: Re: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit Upon closer inspection, these are pads only. I am looking for the pads with new metallic contacts attached, too. The metallic pads also decay and need to be replaced. I have been able to re-use some but they're never 100% good. The surface gets coated with something that causes them to loose the desired properties and cleaning does not always help. I have a punch to create my own pads, and I *could* make metallic pads from a space blanket or similar but I was hoping to find pre-made-ready-to-use replacement pads instead. I could use 4 sets. Bill On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:51 AM, william degnan wrote: > Thanks. I was searching with the wrong terms. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Dec 12, 2016 1:19 AM, "Peter Cetinski" wrote: > >> >> > On Dec 11, 2016, at 5:17 PM, william degnan >> wrote: >> > >> > There was a seller on ebay who had a set of the pre-made keyboard >> > key >> pads >> > for sale...anyone here selling these? Yes I could make my own, I >> > have >> gone >> > through the process, but I'd like to buy a set or two as I have a >> > few keyboards to repair. it's a time consuming process. >> > Thanks in advance. >> > Bill >> >> He?s still out there >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-9000-SIRIUS-1-Keyboard-repair >> -Foam-Pads-for-KeyTronic-Keyboards/121266887970 > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 05:01:08 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 06:01:08 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: <000301d255f2$a9a75c90$fcf615b0$@internode.on.net> References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> <000301d255f2$a9a75c90$fcf615b0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: Ok, to me it looked like they did not. The description implies one should transplant them from wherever to the replacement pads. I will ask the seller. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Dec 14, 2016 5:13 AM, "Kevin Parker" wrote: > These have metallic tops Bill - if you look closely you'll see some shiny > bits - mine came with shiny tops > > > > Kevin Parker > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: Tuesday, 13 December 2016 00:48 > To: cctech > Subject: Re: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit > > Upon closer inspection, these are pads only. I am looking for the pads > with new metallic contacts attached, too. The metallic pads also decay and > need to be replaced. I have been able to re-use some but they're never > 100% good. The surface gets coated with something that causes them to > loose the desired properties and cleaning does not always help. I have a > punch to create my own pads, and I *could* make metallic pads from a space > blanket or similar but I was hoping to find pre-made-ready-to-use > replacement pads instead. I could use 4 sets. > > Bill > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:51 AM, william degnan > wrote: > > > Thanks. I was searching with the wrong terms. > > > > Bill Degnan > > twitter: billdeg > > vintagecomputer.net > > On Dec 12, 2016 1:19 AM, "Peter Cetinski" wrote: > > > >> > >> > On Dec 11, 2016, at 5:17 PM, william degnan > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > There was a seller on ebay who had a set of the pre-made keyboard > >> > key > >> pads > >> > for sale...anyone here selling these? Yes I could make my own, I > >> > have > >> gone > >> > through the process, but I'd like to buy a set or two as I have a > >> > few keyboards to repair. it's a time consuming process. > >> > Thanks in advance. > >> > Bill > >> > >> He?s still out there > >> > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-9000-SIRIUS-1-Keyboard-repair > >> -Foam-Pads-for-KeyTronic-Keyboards/121266887970 > > > > > > From lars at nocrew.org Wed Dec 14 05:54:17 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 12:54:17 +0100 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <20161208213048.283AD18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's message of "Thu, 8 Dec 2016 16:30:48 -0500 (EST)") References: <20161208213048.283AD18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86lgvi7ml2.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > > 9-track tapes on the PDP-10 used one of the following encodings: > > What about 7-track, any idea? I would assume 6 x 6-bit tape frames per > 36-bit word, but that's just a guess. A reasonable guess, and one I'd make too. But I don't know either. Supposedly, many ITS backups were made to 7-track tapes. That became a problem when the old tape drives started to fail, and available new tape drives were only 9-track. From pete at pski.net Wed Dec 14 05:55:38 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 06:55:38 -0500 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: <2D8A8C47-2DA4-4B94-9CF2-0669C35EA4C5@pski.net> <000301d255f2$a9a75c90$fcf615b0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <6A7A2B7E-0C33-445B-A329-41DB0B3D49E8@pski.net> Let us know, Bill. The description says no metallic pad and the last time I bought these from the seller they did not have them. If he added them, I might pick up a few sets. If enough of us bug him maybe he'll offer it as an upgrade. :) Pete > On Dec 14, 2016, at 6:01 AM, william degnan wrote: > > Ok, to me it looked like they did not. The description implies one should > transplant them from wherever to the replacement pads. I will ask the > seller. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net >> On Dec 14, 2016 5:13 AM, "Kevin Parker" wrote: >> >> These have metallic tops Bill - if you look closely you'll see some shiny >> bits - mine came with shiny tops >> >> >> >> Kevin Parker >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william >> degnan >> Sent: Tuesday, 13 December 2016 00:48 >> To: cctech >> Subject: Re: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit >> >> Upon closer inspection, these are pads only. I am looking for the pads >> with new metallic contacts attached, too. The metallic pads also decay and >> need to be replaced. I have been able to re-use some but they're never >> 100% good. The surface gets coated with something that causes them to >> loose the desired properties and cleaning does not always help. I have a >> punch to create my own pads, and I *could* make metallic pads from a space >> blanket or similar but I was hoping to find pre-made-ready-to-use >> replacement pads instead. I could use 4 sets. >> >> Bill >> >> On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 6:51 AM, william degnan >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks. I was searching with the wrong terms. >>> >>> Bill Degnan >>> twitter: billdeg >>> vintagecomputer.net >>>> On Dec 12, 2016 1:19 AM, "Peter Cetinski" wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 11, 2016, at 5:17 PM, william degnan >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There was a seller on ebay who had a set of the pre-made keyboard >>>>> key >>>> pads >>>>> for sale...anyone here selling these? Yes I could make my own, I >>>>> have >>>> gone >>>>> through the process, but I'd like to buy a set or two as I have a >>>>> few keyboards to repair. it's a time consuming process. >>>>> Thanks in advance. >>>>> Bill >>>> >>>> He?s still out there >>>> >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-9000-SIRIUS-1-Keyboard-repair >>>> -Foam-Pads-for-KeyTronic-Keyboards/121266887970 >>> >>> >> >> From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Wed Dec 14 01:08:23 2016 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 17:38:23 +1030 Subject: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4591c2e9-ef63-5927-4ac6-ac6fbe79a026@kaput.homeunix.org> On 14/12/2016 09:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > So far, this loop hangs on all three emulators I've tried - simh's > altairz80, simcpm010 for AmigaDOS, and EMUZ80 for Raspberry Pi. I'm > guessing none of these environments emulate specific behavior of the > Refresh register? > > Does anyone have any comments or insights about what this is really > doing and what the right thing to do for emulators is? I can patch > this if that's what's needed, but I'd like to understand it first. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > Ethan, Have you tried running it on ZEMU? (Windows only unfortunately, but should run under WINE). http://www.z80.info/z80emu.htm#EMU_CPU_W32 I tried single stepping through it just now and it looks like it's doing its job, at least as a possible random number generator. When was this game written? Perhaps it's supposed to lock up on emulators that don't emulate the Z80 completely? Not knowing what the game is, it could be a copy protection routine too. Because R counts the number of instructions executed (modulus 128), if the code was modified, theoretically the R register would be different to what the routine expects, and would lock the machine. I can't find any information on what the MSB is set to when the accumulator is loaded with R, and what the Sign flag is set to. The datasheet says the Sign and Zero flags are changed by the instruction. If either of these flags are set, the routine enters an infinite loop. Alexis. From trash80 at internode.on.net Wed Dec 14 04:10:26 2016 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 21:10:26 +1100 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000201d255f2$4aec9170$e0c5b450$@internode.on.net> Think you're talking about this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-9000-SIRIUS-1-Keyboard-repair-Foam-Pads-for-KeyTronic-Keyboards-/121266887970 I bought a couple to repair TRS-80 keyboards - well worth it in my view - save me lot of hassle. Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Monday, 12 December 2016 09:17 To: cctech Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit There was a seller on ebay who had a set of the pre-made keyboard key pads for sale...anyone here selling these? Yes I could make my own, I have gone through the process, but I'd like to buy a set or two as I have a few keyboards to repair. it's a time consuming process. Thanks in advance. Bill From shatle at nfldinet.com Wed Dec 14 08:14:10 2016 From: shatle at nfldinet.com (Steve Hatle) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:14:10 -0700 Subject: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit Message-ID: <20161214071410.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.285426fb80.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: looking for keytronics keyboard pad replacement kit From: william degnan Date: Wed, December 14, 2016 5:01 am To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Ok, to me it looked like they did not. The description implies one should transplant them from wherever to the replacement pads. I will ask the seller. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net ---- Do tell when you find out. If the metallic pads are already there, I'm probably in for a couple of sets :-) Steve From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 14 08:53:48 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 06:53:48 -0800 Subject: Megatek Series 7000 Graphics System? In-Reply-To: <20161214085616.GA30213@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161210085836.GA18116@beast.freibergnet.de> <20161212165506.GA34164@beast.freibergnet.de> <49025f79-dd42-7300-0ec1-4b1ef021a0cc@bitsavers.org> <9a9c703e-79a3-ed5f-c1e1-6ba47ce0fbdc@bitsavers.org> <4c706ee1-e539-e427-284c-39904acf01dd@bitsavers.org> <20161214085616.GA30213@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <57563957-fcdc-3294-2be1-552e872ca9af@bitsavers.org> On 12/14/16 12:56 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > As far as I understood, you now have found the AM2901 BitSlices in your > machine? yes > It where intersting to know in which order the boards in your system are > placed. > Unfortunately, the boards were separated from the chassis years ago, and after a couple of days of searching I can't find the chassis. I really hope it didn't get tossed in a purge last summer. I found some bits of code on the net (mgdev.h in the BRL-CAD package) that describe the instruction set, and a couple of people I need to try to try contacting to see if they still have any documentation. There were drivers around for V6 Unix, Purdue, MIT, UPenn and several other places wrote their own packages it seems for it http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~saul/MAN3rev https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/45177/08509887-MIT.pdf https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/45178/09961685-MIT.pdf I have the Purdue library on a DECtape image that I'll need to extract the files from. If you can look at the backplane, can you tell me if it is just bussed straight across? It really seems like there were over the top card connectors for the peripheral bus and just a bus arragement on the backplane. It is a very modular system. In the case of the vector version, a minimum configuration was the unibus interface, processor, memory, and vector generator cards. I think your unit was raster, so there was an intermediate vector to raster converter, and frame buffer that took the display list memory and rasterized it. My unit has additional cards (rotate, light pen, keyboard/peripheral interface cards) This all makes a lot more sense once I was able to find some brochures in the CHM collection yesterday that hadn't been cataloged until recently. Another rathole :-( From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 14 09:16:27 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:16:27 -0800 Subject: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue In-Reply-To: <20161213185038.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.1527724831.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> References: <20161213185038.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.1527724831.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <72fa62ac-6a56-2874-b833-a6922e6d13d3@bitsavers.org> On 12/13/16 5:50 PM, Steve Hatle wrote: > I acquired an ADM3-A a while back from the NWA auction, and a > generous friend was able to get me the lower case ROM chip that > was "missing" from my terminal. > related to this http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/adm3a-2.htm has rom dumps I was going to put them on bitsavers (I may still do it today), but there are a few oddities: Extra bits in an unused (nonexistant?) column of the UC ROM Exact inversion of the character order in the LC ROM from the normal GI RO-3-2513/CGR-005 Don't know if this was intentional or not. Maybe they inverted the address going to it? I'll also include the two pages describing the glyphs from the GI databook From j_hoppe at t-online.de Wed Dec 14 09:00:38 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 16:00:38 +0100 Subject: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue In-Reply-To: References: <20161213185038.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.1527724831.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: By accident, I just now restored an ADM3 (not the "A")! Lowercase ROM was made with an pin-rearranged 2706 EPROM. Additional RAM was inserted, DIP switches were set: works perfectly. However, with lowercase ROM installed and DIP switches set, but extra RAM missing, the Space "0x20" was displayed as a " ` ". So I think you have an RAM issue. Perhaps cleaning the socketed extra RAM helps? Joerg > On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Steve Hatle wrote: > >> I acquired an ADM3-A a while back from the NWA auction, and a >> generous friend was able to get me the lower case ROM chip that >> was "missing" from my terminal. >> >> I set the DIP switches and installed the ROM. When I turned on the >> terminal, the whole screen was filled with "`" characters before the >> host was ever started. >> >> When I started up the connected Sun machine, the terminal did display >> both upper and lower case characters, but the "`" characters remained >> and appeared to fill out each new line, and text printed out by the >> machine was followed by garbage characters - like "Login:nzzzz". Typed >> characters were correctly upper or lower as typed. >> >> I removed the ROM and cleaned the legs of the chip. I didn't clean the >> socket, since I didn't have anything like DeOxit handy. I did remove and >> re-insert the ROM a couple of times. >> >> When I removed the ROM and set the DIPs back to the original setting, >> the terminal worked like normal in all upper case. Setting the DIPs to >> force upper case, etc. when the ROM was in always showed the bad >> behavior though the characters were upper/lower as you would expect from >> the switch settings. >> >> TL;DR - bad and extra characters when the ROM chip is in, everything OK >> when it's out. >> >> So, barring a bad connection to the chip while it's in the socket, it >> seems like the ROM itself could be bad. I'll dig through the maint >> manuals and see if I can find anything related to this behavior. In the >> meantime, any ideas from the collective are welcome. >> > Take a look at the silk screen on the board - ISTR there's another chip > that needs to be added, some simple TTL logic. I converted mine several > years ago without problems - but that was with the original ROM. > From shatle at nfldinet.com Wed Dec 14 10:27:19 2016 From: shatle at nfldinet.com (Steve Hatle) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 09:27:19 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue Message-ID: <20161214092719.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.6c4f5626d6.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue From: J?rg_Hoppe Date: Wed, December 14, 2016 9:00 am To: cctech at classiccmp.org By accident, I just now restored an ADM3 (not the "A")! Lowercase ROM was made with an pin-rearranged 2706 EPROM. Additional RAM was inserted, DIP switches were set: works perfectly. However, with lowercase ROM installed and DIP switches set, but extra RAM missing, the Space "0x20" was displayed as a " ` ". So I think you have an RAM issue. Perhaps cleaning the socketed extra RAM helps? Joerg ---- Thanks - that sounds like my symptoms exactly. I'll check out the RAM. Steve From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 10:33:30 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 11:33:30 -0500 Subject: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register In-Reply-To: <4591c2e9-ef63-5927-4ac6-ac6fbe79a026@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <4591c2e9-ef63-5927-4ac6-ac6fbe79a026@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 AM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: > On 14/12/2016 09:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> So far, this loop hangs on all three emulators I've tried - simh's >> altairz80, simcpm010 for AmigaDOS, and EMUZ80 for Raspberry Pi. I'm >> guessing none of these environments emulate specific behavior of the >> Refresh register? >> > > Ethan, > > Have you tried running it on ZEMU? I have not. Thanks for the suggestion. I don't know which emulators might implement the refresh register. > (Windows only unfortunately, but should run under WINE). That's what it will take - I'm 100% UNIX/Linux (well... plus VAX and PDP-11 and Amiga and PET...) > http://www.z80.info/z80emu.htm#EMU_CPU_W32 > > I tried single stepping through it just now and it looks like it's doing > its job, at least as a possible random number generator. Excellent. I expect it should work. > When was this game written? Perhaps it's supposed to lock up on > emulators that don't emulate the Z80 completely? 1979. Emulators weren't a factor then. > Not knowing what the game is, it could be a copy protection routine too. I don't think so. It's just generating a percentage which it's using for probability. > I can't find any information on what the MSB is set to when the > accumulator is loaded with R, and what the Sign flag is set to. The > datasheet says the Sign and Zero flags are changed by the instruction. > If either of these flags are set, the routine enters an infinite loop. Tony Duell pointed that out too. I suspect that this code works for machines that existed at the time, with 16K DRAMs, and might or might not have worked on later machines. A quick scan of InfoWorld links and such and I can't find any S-100 cards with 4164s older than about 1983. I don't think there were many commercially available 64K DRAMs prior to 1982. -ethan From david at thecoolbears.org Wed Dec 14 12:21:26 2016 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 10:21:26 -0800 Subject: WTB SS-30 FDC Message-ID: <616804e4-63ff-ccdc-131f-4f3d8ffa9498@thecoolbears.org> I've been looking for an SS-30 bus floppy controller for some time now. Examples would be DC2/DC3/DC4/DC5, but I would also be OK with a Pertec or SSB. Anyone have one that they would be willing to part with? From shadoooo at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 12:36:10 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 19:36:10 +0100 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hello, somewhere around I should have a floppy with disassembler for HP1660 series. I suppose it is useless for 1630... or not? Should I give a look to find it? Andrea From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 14 14:52:03 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 21:52:03 +0100 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004901d2564b$ed4f7870$c7ee6950$@xs4all.nl> Andrea, I've the symbol editor utility for the 1660 series. I also have the inverse assembler development software for the 16500 and 1650 series.(HP 10391B) -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens shadoooo > Verzonden: woensdag 14 december 2016 19:36 > Aan: cctalk > Onderwerp: Re: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? > > hello, > somewhere around I should have a floppy with disassembler for HP1660 series. > I suppose it is useless for 1630... or not? > Should I give a look to find it? > > Andrea From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 22:33:54 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 20:33:54 -0800 Subject: TI 980 software? Message-ID: <09b36dd8-8d76-a12e-7fa2-21e3fcbc7504@gmail.com> Hi all -- The TI 980B I got from that NWA auction from a month or so ago finally made its way back to my house, and the CPU looks to be in decent shape. I'll probably start working on restoring it after the new year. Bitsavers has ample documentation, but I haven't found much software at all -- I don't suppose anyone out there's got any tucked away somewhere? I've found this: http://www.cozx.com/dpitts/ti980.html which provides a nice cross assembler/linker and simulator so I guess I can write my own :). I was hoping there'd be a bit more to the system than the CPU, but the rack it came in was effectively empty apart from the CPU, a gigantic power supply and an empty backplane and card-cage. There was a stack of documentation included, so now I know that this TI was originally part of an Evans and Sutherland "NOVOVIEW 2500" -- a "Night Only View" flight simulator that used a set of point-plotting X/Y beam-penetration displays (red/orange/amber/yellow/green colors) to simulate a runway at night. (These were the DSI displays that were auctioned off as a separate lot, wish I'd known what they were at the time...) Pretty interesting, a shame all of the cool hardware was stripped out at some point. Based on the printout stuck in the Omni 800 that came with it, this was in use through at least 2000. Thanks, - Josh From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 12:36:16 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 18:36:16 +0000 Subject: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register In-Reply-To: References: <4591c2e9-ef63-5927-4ac6-ac6fbe79a026@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: >> I can't find any information on what the MSB is set to when the >> accumulator is loaded with R, and what the Sign flag is set to. The >> datasheet says the Sign and Zero flags are changed by the instruction. >> If either of these flags are set, the routine enters an infinite loop. > > Tony Duell pointed that out too. I suspect that this code works for > machines that existed at the time, with 16K DRAMs, and might or might > not have worked on later machines. A quick scan of InfoWorld links The type of RAM shouldn't matter (provided it works properly...) The R register is an 8 bit register. It can be loaded from the accumulator and read back into the accumulaotr (the LD A,R instruction you see here). The bottom 7 bits of R are incremented (with wraparound from 111 1111 to 000 0000) after every instruction. The top bit is left alone. At certain times, the RFSH/ signal is asserted by the Z80, At this point all 8 bits of the R register appear on the bottom 8 bit of the address bus. (As an aside, the I register, the interrupt vector register, appears on the top half of the address bus). Ths incrementing 7 bit address is useful for refreshing those DRAMs that need 128 refresh cycles (a so-called '7 bit refresh'). There is no reason you have to use it for that, even if you have DRAM (you could make your own RAM controller, with its own refresh generator, in fact I would guess a lot of S100 RAM boards did, so they could be used with CPUs other than the Z80). The behaviour of the R register is, of course, unchanged whether you use it for RAM refresh or not. It is my guess (without looking at the datasheets) that as the LD A,R instruction has been said to affect the sign and zero flags that these behave in the obvious way. Z is set if the value loaded is zero. The sign bit is set if the high bit of R is set. If that guess is right then there is a problem. If the high bit of R is set then the routine as given will go into an infinite loop. Remember the automatic incrementing of R is only on the bottom 7 bits. What I need to do is find exactly how the flags are set by the LD A,R -tony From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Dec 14 12:54:47 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 10:54:47 -0800 Subject: Found in data center Message-ID: An old cabinet that only IBM had the key, they came by took what they wanted and left it full I only got a quick shot of what's in there .. any interest ? Located Portland, Oregon https://goo.gl/photos/rSUZ9nnxsrxN8nku5 From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed Dec 14 13:11:24 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 19:11:24 +0000 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: <86lgvi7ml2.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <20161208213048.283AD18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <86lgvi7ml2.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDEB8CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Lars Brinkhoff Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 3:54 AM > Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> 9-track tapes on the PDP-10 used one of the following encodings: >> What about 7-track, any idea? I would assume 6 x 6-bit tape frames per >> 36-bit word, but that's just a guess. > A reasonable guess, and one I'd make too. But I don't know either. According to the monitor calls manuals for both Tops-10 and TOPS-20, as well as the manual specifically on tape labels etc., that's a very good guess, and a correct one. > Supposedly, many ITS backups were made to 7-track tapes. That became a > problem when the old tape drives started to fail, and available new tape > drives were only 9-track. The same issue occurred at SAIL for the early WAITS backups prior to the introduction of a KL-10 into the system (which grew from a PDP-6 to a PDP-10/PDP-6 to a KL-10/KA-10/166, then shrank to a KL-10/KA-10 down to a KL-10 only). The KL-10 had TU-78 drives on an RH20. AIUI, the older backup tapes were refrangled onto new 9-track media before the KA-10 and its drives were retired. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From shatle at nfldinet.com Wed Dec 14 13:13:58 2016 From: shatle at nfldinet.com (Steve Hatle) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 12:13:58 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue Message-ID: <20161214121358.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.c3e30dc914.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue From: J?rg_Hoppe Date: Wed, December 14, 2016 9:00 am To: cctech at classiccmp.org By accident, I just now restored an ADM3 (not the "A")! Lowercase ROM was made with an pin-rearranged 2706 EPROM. Additional RAM was inserted, DIP switches were set: works perfectly. However, with lowercase ROM installed and DIP switches set, but extra RAM missing, the Space "0x20" was displayed as a " ` ". So I think you have an RAM issue. Perhaps cleaning the socketed extra RAM helps? Joerg ---- Thanks - that sounds like my symptoms exactly. I'll check out the RAM. Steve ---- Well, there you go. The sockets for two 2102 RAM chips are empty! Anybody have a couple of these guys they can spare, or a quick pointer on where to buy them? Thanks all, esp. Joerg for the tip! Steve From j_hoppe at t-online.de Wed Dec 14 15:08:55 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 22:08:55 +0100 Subject: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue In-Reply-To: <20161214121358.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.c3e30dc914.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> References: <20161214121358.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.c3e30dc914.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Am 14.12.2016 um 20:13 schrieb Steve Hatle: > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue > From: J?rg_Hoppe > Date: Wed, December 14, 2016 9:00 am > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > > By accident, I just now restored an ADM3 (not the "A")! > Lowercase ROM was made with an pin-rearranged 2706 EPROM. > Additional RAM was inserted, DIP switches were set: works perfectly. > > However, with lowercase ROM installed and DIP switches set, but extra > RAM missing, > the Space "0x20" was displayed as a " ` ". > So I think you have an RAM issue. > Perhaps cleaning the socketed extra RAM helps? > > Joerg > > ---- > > Thanks - that sounds like my symptoms exactly. I'll check out the RAM. > > Steve > > ---- > > Well, there you go. The sockets for two 2102 RAM chips are empty! > > Anybody have a couple of these guys they can spare, or a quick pointer > on where to buy them? I got mine from Bulgaria: http://www.ebay.de/itm/311745516883 Joerg > > Thanks all, esp. Joerg for the tip! > > Steve > From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Dec 14 15:26:12 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 16:26:12 -0500 Subject: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register In-Reply-To: References: <4591c2e9-ef63-5927-4ac6-ac6fbe79a026@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <382c7b72-c52b-8d70-a637-10d5e8a169dd@verizon.net> On 12/14/16 11:33 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 AM, Alexis Kotlowy > wrote: >> On 14/12/2016 09:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> So far, this loop hangs on all three emulators I've tried - simh's >>> altairz80, simcpm010 for AmigaDOS, and EMUZ80 for Raspberry Pi. I'm >>> guessing none of these environments emulate specific behavior of the >>> Refresh register? >>> >> Ethan, >> >> Have you tried running it on ZEMU? > I have not. Thanks for the suggestion. I don't know which emulators > might implement the refresh register. > >> (Windows only unfortunately, but should run under WINE). > That's what it will take - I'm 100% UNIX/Linux (well... plus VAX and > PDP-11 and Amiga and PET...) > >> http://www.z80.info/z80emu.htm#EMU_CPU_W32 >> >> I tried single stepping through it just now and it looks like it's doing >> its job, at least as a possible random number generator. > Excellent. I expect it should work. > >> When was this game written? Perhaps it's supposed to lock up on >> emulators that don't emulate the Z80 completely? > 1979. Emulators weren't a factor then. > >> Not knowing what the game is, it could be a copy protection routine too. > I don't think so. It's just generating a percentage which it's using > for probability. > >> I can't find any information on what the MSB is set to when the >> accumulator is loaded with R, and what the Sign flag is set to. The >> datasheet says the Sign and Zero flags are changed by the instruction. >> If either of these flags are set, the routine enters an infinite loop. > Tony Duell pointed that out too. I suspect that this code works for > machines that existed at the time, with 16K DRAMs, and might or might > not have worked on later machines. A quick scan of InfoWorld links > and such and I can't find any S-100 cards with 4164s older than about > 1983. I don't think there were many commercially available 64K DRAMs > prior to 1982. > > -ethan > The first year of appearance for 64K DRAMS was mid to late 1980 (expensive and scarce) and mostly sampling to the big vendors. For regular users late 81 when the price started down. There were three flavors, 8bit refresh, 7bit refresh, and internal refresh came in a bit later by maybe mid 1982. Adoption was a bit slow due to cost and Alpha particle concerns with soft errors The Z80 could do 8bit refresh with hardware or software or the self refresh (internal). Nominally the R register is a counter that increments from any value to 7bit overflow. I believe most emulators actually do that. Check MyZ80 Simon Crans work (32bit dos/ pre-7-winders only or in a 32bit sim/VM). Either that or lookup and assemble Grant Searle's low chip count Z80 system. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 16:34:29 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 17:34:29 -0500 Subject: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register In-Reply-To: <382c7b72-c52b-8d70-a637-10d5e8a169dd@verizon.net> References: <4591c2e9-ef63-5927-4ac6-ac6fbe79a026@kaput.homeunix.org> <382c7b72-c52b-8d70-a637-10d5e8a169dd@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 4:26 PM, allison wrote: >>> On 14/12/2016 09:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> >>>> So far, this loop hangs on all three emulators I've tried - simh's >>>> altairz80, simcpm010 for AmigaDOS, and EMUZ80 for Raspberry Pi. I'm >>>> guessing none of these environments emulate specific behavior of the >>>> Refresh register? > The first year of appearance for 64K DRAMS was mid to late 1980 (expensive > and scarce) and mostly sampling to the big vendors. For regular users late 81 > when the price started down. Right. I was a user of 8-bit micros in that exact era. My first hands-on experience as a user was the memory inside the Commodore 64. My first engineering experience was in 1984 on a product designed in 1983 (COMBOARD-II with 128K of 4164 chips and a 74S409 refresh controller). > There were three flavors, 8bit refresh, 7bit refresh, and > internal refresh came in a bit later by maybe mid 1982. I know there were different types but not those details. Thanks. > The Z80 could do 8bit refresh with hardware or software or the self refresh > (internal). I'm also a little fuzzy on this aspect of things because I was never a Z-80 user back in the day. Software Results considered a Z-80 COMBOARD very early on, but abandonded that approach because it would have likely required 2 hex Unibus modules and so opted to hold out a few months and go with a 68000 and SRAM design on a single hex card (my old boss still has an XC68000 with S/N 424 engraved on the lid). > Nominally the R register is a counter that increments from any value to 7bit > overflow. So I'm learning. > I believe most emulators actually do that. The first three emulators I tried (simcpm010, altairz80, and EMUZ80) on three different platforms (AmigaDOS, Linux, and ARM) do not. I now have a couple of names of DOS/Windows emulators that should. I will have to run them under Wine since I'm not a Windows user. It's funny because I would have tried this on simcpm010 25 years ago (it was on the Amiga disk I just extracted all these files from) and it would have failed then just as it fails today, and then, I had *no* idea why. I've learned a lot since then because it only took me a few hours of digging to uncover why. > Check MyZ80 Simon Crans work (32bit > dos/ pre-7-winders only or in a 32bit sim/VM). I will look that up. > Either that or lookup and assemble Grant Searle's low chip count Z80 system. The worry is not running on real hardware. Once I get some time to clean up my XOR or dig out a Kaypro, I will run it on real hardware. I want to find/fix an emulator for modern machines so that other people can just grab and go. Also, this is not _just_ a Z-80 program, it's a CP/M program, with CP/M BDOS calls to open/close/read/write files and read-from/write-to the console (F_OPEN, F_CLOSE, F_READ, F_WRITE, C_READSTR, C_WRITE). Right now, I'm leaning towards fixing altairz80 first since that runs on "everything". I may also work with the author of EMUZ80 so it works on bare-metal Raspberry Pi (EMUZ80 is a Pascal app that runs in the Lazarus bare-metal framework, so you need Windows to rebuild the app). I don't mind putting known-working Windows-based emulators on a list of "verified environments", but I'm not going to push this to the public without a Mac and a Linux answer. Telling the world that they have to build a real Z-80 CP/M machine to play a game isn't going to hit a large audience. Thanks, -ethan From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Dec 15 01:15:37 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 23:15:37 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: <004901d2564b$ed4f7870$c7ee6950$@xs4all.nl> References: <004901d2564b$ed4f7870$c7ee6950$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <92E9F696-02AC-4B35-B3FD-AC06F7298D0E@eschatologist.net> As someone with an HP 1660cs, I'd love to see it. Do you remember the specific architecture it was for? Also, isn't 1650 software compatible with the 1660? :) Finally, is there anything I should do with my 1660cs for preservation purposes? Image the hard disk, that sort of thing? Or can it be entirely reloaded from the OS floppy images still distributed by Keysight? -- Chris Sent from my iPad > On Dec 14, 2016, at 12:52 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > Andrea, > > I've the symbol editor utility for the 1660 series. > I also have the inverse assembler development software for the 16500 and 1650 series.(HP 10391B) > > -Rik >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens shadoooo >> Verzonden: woensdag 14 december 2016 19:36 >> Aan: cctalk >> Onderwerp: Re: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? >> >> hello, >> somewhere around I should have a floppy with disassembler for HP1660 series. >> I suppose it is useless for 1630... or not? >> Should I give a look to find it? >> >> Andrea > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 01:12:06 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:12:06 -0500 Subject: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register In-Reply-To: <4591c2e9-ef63-5927-4ac6-ac6fbe79a026@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <4591c2e9-ef63-5927-4ac6-ac6fbe79a026@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 AM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: > On 14/12/2016 09:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> So far, this loop hangs on all three emulators I've tried - simh's >> altairz80, simcpm010 for AmigaDOS, and EMUZ80 for Raspberry Pi... > > Have you tried running it on ZEMU? (Windows only unfortunately, but > should run under WINE). > > http://www.z80.info/z80emu.htm#EMU_CPU_W32 Thanks for the tip, Alexis. It did run under ZEMU under Wine on my Mint laptop, but what an awful interface. My next goal is finding something less mousy like fixing altairz80. > I tried single stepping through it just now and it looks like it's doing > its job, at least as a possible random number generator. Yep. No tweaks. It just ran as expected under ZEMU once I got the files in there. > I can't find any information on what the MSB is set to when the > accumulator is loaded with R, and what the Sign flag is set to. The > datasheet says the Sign and Zero flags are changed by the instruction. > If either of these flags are set, the routine enters an infinite loop. The upper bit of R can be set or cleared with LD R,A but won't change state due to counter activity. I checked the program - it only does LD A,R to read the register. It never sets it. Thanks again for the tip. Once I get a few more things checked out, I'll be revealing what this is all about. I think a few people may be interested, or at least amused. -ethan From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Dec 15 01:19:40 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 23:19:40 -0800 Subject: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software??? In-Reply-To: <20161214090734.GB30213@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161205193154.GA40797@beast.freibergnet.de> <004701d25462$3c5b24a0$b5116de0$@xs4all.nl> <20161214090734.GB30213@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <099142D0-F9CA-4CC6-ABEE-DDE953579F47@eschatologist.net> On Dec 14, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > As far as I know I do have an HP IEEE488 ISA Board lying around somewhere, > and I'l ltry to look at the stack of old Motherboards if I can find > something with a "higher" CPU and ISA Slots to build a Windoze computer > that can be connected to the 9121D Drive so that I can restore the > images to disks. You can interface with HP-IB equipment pretty easily with modern hardware too, you can get a GP-IB adapter that uses USB or PCIe and for which a full set of driver libraries is available fairly inexpensively. -- Chris From eivinde at terraplane.org Thu Dec 15 04:38:18 2016 From: eivinde at terraplane.org (Eivind Nicolay Evensen) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:38:18 +0100 Subject: 6502 code In-Reply-To: References: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20161215103818.GA36038@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 01:27:54AM -0600, drlegendre . wrote: > @Sean > > I was wondering the same, but perhaps he needs physical hardware for some > specific purposes, like timing and so forth? > > The emus (VICE) are quite good these days, though. I can hardly find > anything that VICE x64 won't run. Indeed, it's a very nice emulator, something I'd never thought I'd say about any emulator. Sound is quite far from original hardware for instance on Musik Run/Stop by Mahoney (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62583) though, at least on 2.4 which I use currently. From lars at nocrew.org Thu Dec 15 07:46:14 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 14:46:14 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161215103818.GA36038@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> (Eivind Nicolay Evensen's message of "Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:38:18 +0100") References: <20161213072051.GD1721@brevard.conman.org> <20161215103818.GA36038@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> Message-ID: <86vaul4861.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> I always thought there was one and only one PDP-6 at MIT. The one running ITS at the AI Lab. But then I found a post to alt.sys.pdp10 by Marc Crispin: > I did meet the MIT AI and DM PDP-6s Digging further, I found Project MAC progress reports mentioning this Dynamic Modeling PDP-6. Page 59 in http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/732767.pdf > at Project MAC, both the Multics GE 645 system and the Dynamic > Modeling and Computer Graphics Groups' PDP-6/10 system are network > hosts. Page 60 in http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/756689.pdf > Work on the Dynamic Modeling System began, effectively, in October, > 1969, when a used PDP-6 computer with 32K words of memory was > delivered to Project MAC. Does anyone know more about this PDP-6? Did it ever run ITS, like its PDP-10 successor? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 15 08:24:02 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 09:24:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161215142402.1A34118C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > Does anyone know more about this PDP-6? Did it ever run ITS, like its > PDP-10 successor? I don't know about the software run on the two PDP-6's - by the time I arrived at MIT, they were both powered off and never, as far as I know, ever ran again. I would _assume_ that it ran ITS. I don't recall if the physical remains stayed until the KA's were de-commissioned, or of they were removed prior to that - I suspect they stayed, since they were mixed in with the KA's - in the case of AI at least, wired in together - but don't remember exactly. I don't recall if the I/O bus was shared between the two CPUs on the DM machines, the way it was on the AI KA and PDP-6. The DM PDP-6 was part of the DM KA 'assembly' - DM was in two rows (front and back) to the right of the right-hand door from the lobby into the machine room. IIRC, the PDP-6 was in the front row, to the right? of the KA CPU. (The back row contained memory boxes - a mix of different DEC memories. I don't recall where the tape and disk controllers were - or the disk drives. I seem to vaguely recall a few boxes to the left of the KA CPU? Maybe there are some pictures of the MAC machine room that will show it.) Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 15 12:20:29 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:20:29 -0800 Subject: Found in data center In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <781332AB-FDC0-47D0-B15D-EBF62F97074D@shiresoft.com> If no one else wants/claims this, I will as it looks like mainframe stuff. Will you box/ship? TTFN - Guy > On Dec 14, 2016, at 10:54 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > An old cabinet that only IBM had the key, they came by took what they > wanted and left it full > > I only got a quick shot of what's in there .. any interest ? Located > Portland, Oregon > > https://goo.gl/photos/rSUZ9nnxsrxN8nku5 From lars at nocrew.org Thu Dec 15 12:35:59 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:35:59 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161215142402.1A34118C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's message of "Thu, 15 Dec 2016 09:24:02 -0500 (EST)") References: <20161215142402.1A34118C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86a8bx3ur4.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > I don't know about the software run on the two PDP-6's - by the time I > arrived at MIT, they were both powered off and never, as far as I > know, ever ran again. I would _assume_ that it ran ITS. Yet it's very rare to see references to it, and never (as far as I know) in the context of ITS. Pure speculation, but I suppose that since the DynaMod group got their 10 shortly after the 6, they may have focused on getting the 10 up and running. Maybe they didn't bother to make the 6 run in timesharing mode. > The DM PDP-6 was part of the DM KA 'assembly' - DM was in two rows > (front and back) to the right of the right-hand door from the lobby > into the machine room. IIRC, the PDP-6 was in the front row, to the > right? of the KA CPU. Thank you very much! It great to have such a detailed description of the DM PDP-6. From phil at ultimate.com Thu Dec 15 15:21:14 2016 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:21:14 -0500 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161215142402.1A34118C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161215142402.1A34118C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201612152121.uBFLLEql073663@ultimate.com> I never knew there had been two '6s in Tech Square. I had thought AI and LNS (Labratory for Nuclear Science) were the only PDP-6s at MIT... phil From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Dec 15 05:07:07 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 06:07:07 -0500 Subject: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register In-Reply-To: References: <4591c2e9-ef63-5927-4ac6-ac6fbe79a026@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: On 12/15/2016 02:12 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 AM, Alexis Kotlowy > wrote: >> On 14/12/2016 09:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> So far, this loop hangs on all three emulators I've tried - simh's >>> altairz80, simcpm010 for AmigaDOS, and EMUZ80 for Raspberry Pi... >> Have you tried running it on ZEMU? (Windows only unfortunately, but >> should run under WINE). >> >> http://www.z80.info/z80emu.htm#EMU_CPU_W32 > Thanks for the tip, Alexis. It did run under ZEMU under Wine on my > Mint laptop, but what an awful interface. My next goal is finding > something less mousy like fixing altairz80. > >> I tried single stepping through it just now and it looks like it's doing >> its job, at least as a possible random number generator. > Yep. No tweaks. It just ran as expected under ZEMU once I got the > files in there. > >> I can't find any information on what the MSB is set to when the >> accumulator is loaded with R, and what the Sign flag is set to. The >> datasheet says the Sign and Zero flags are changed by the instruction. >> If either of these flags are set, the routine enters an infinite loop. > The upper bit of R can be set or cleared with LD R,A but won't change > state due to counter activity. I checked the program - it only does > LD A,R to read the register. It never sets it. > > Thanks again for the tip. Once I get a few more things checked out, > I'll be revealing what this is all about. I think a few people may be > interested, or at least amused. > > -ethan > In the past the LD A,R was used to seed a random number generator, not the best but for tiny basics and the like is was enough. IT was used in one app I'd seen as a cycle counter as part of a debugger since it increments each M1 (instruction fetch) cycle. FYI later Z80 variants like 64180, Z180, Z280 that register was at least 8 bit incrementing. I've designed around them all. Allison From jacek.greniger at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 05:14:19 2016 From: jacek.greniger at gmail.com (Jacek Greniger) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 12:14:19 +0100 Subject: WTB 12/16MB RAM (MS42-BA/CA) for VAXstation 3100/30 Message-ID: Hi, Recently I acquired pretty nice VAXstation 3100/30. It has GPX graphics card, two RZ23 disks (one dead, second cause short circuit but after removing tantalium capacitor on +12V line looks to be working) and MS42-AB 4MB memory extension card. Installed NetBSD under SIMH and disk image will be moved to physical drive when I will find one (100MB is not enough). But the bigger problem for me is to find 12MB or 16MB memory extension for this machine. So I'm looking for MS42-BA or better MS42-CA (16MB) card. Maybe there is somebody who is willing to part with it. My location is Poland. Best regards Jacek From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 15 13:52:49 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:52:49 +0000 Subject: An interesting use of the 4004 instructions Message-ID: I was looking at some disassembled 4004 code when I came across a SKIP operation. It isn't normally an instruction but If you do a JCN with all the CCCC = 0, it will do a NEVER jump. This is the equivalent of a SKIP instruction. I would suppose a JCN with CCCC = $8000 would be an always jump, on page ( not real useful as JUN takes the same cycles and space ). I thought at first there was some errors in the code because there were JMS to the middle of JCN instruction but then I noticed that there were no conditions specified for the JCN. A little thought and I realized it was a way to skip over a single byte instruction. Dwight From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 15 20:24:13 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 21:24:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161216022413.7857E18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > It great to have such a detailed description of the DM PDP-6. I hope you're not being serious! There was almost no detail there. But... > I suppose that since the DynaMod group got their 10 shortly after the 6, > they may have focused on getting the 10 up and running. Maybe they > didn't bother to make the 6 run in timesharing mode. I think all the DM people are still around - why not ask one of them for more? Probably best to start with Al Vezza, the group leader; I don't have a guaranteed e-mail for him, and a quick Google didn't show a page for him anywhere, but the e-mail address on his WWW resignation note page is the same as the one on his MIT information entry, so maybe it still works. Jack Haverty was in the group for a while early on, too: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/2012-May/002288.html Another possibility is P. Dave Lebling (PDL). Or Tim Anderson (TAA) if you can't get ahold of him. Noel From lars at nocrew.org Fri Dec 16 01:18:23 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 08:18:23 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161216022413.7857E18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's message of "Thu, 15 Dec 2016 21:24:13 -0500 (EST)") References: <20161216022413.7857E18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86shpo2vgg.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > I hope you're not being serious! There was almost no detail there. Oh, it was much more detailed than anything else I've read before! I wonder how the AI PDP-6 was used back in the day. I suppose ITS development moved to the KA10 using the virtual memory pager, leaving the 6 behind. But it was still attached as a slave CPU, right? > I think all the DM people are still around - why not ask one of them > for more? I will. TAA has already posted some information about Muddle in our GitHub project. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 04:51:42 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 10:51:42 -0000 Subject: DisplayWriter apparently on Craigslist... Message-ID: <000a01d2578a$63a8dcc0$2afa9640$@gmail.com> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55404-IBM-Displaywriter Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Dec 15 18:55:35 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:55:35 -0500 Subject: An interesting use of the 4004 instructions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 15, 2016, at 2:52 PM, dwight wrote: > > I was looking at some disassembled 4004 code when I came across > > a SKIP operation. > > It isn't normally an instruction but If you do a JCN with all the CCCC = 0, > > it will do a NEVER jump. > > This is the equivalent of a SKIP instruction. > > I would suppose a JCN with CCCC = $8000 would be an always jump, > > on page ( not real useful as JUN takes the same cycles and space ). > > I thought at first there was some errors in the code because there > > were JMS to the middle of JCN instruction but then I noticed that there > > were no conditions specified for the JCN. A little thought and I realized > > it was a way to skip over a single byte instruction. It's a bit like a coding convention I've seen used a lot in PDP-11 code, at least in some programs; RSTS/E is full of them. Consider a function with two entry points, where Carry set or clear is used after entry to distinguish the two cases. The two entry points look like this: fun1: tst (pc)+ fun2: sec ; common code bcs case2 ; case1... Or a function that indicates a boolean result (say, success/fail) by Carry clear vs. set: good: tst (pc)+ fail: sec rts pc paul From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 16 07:43:36 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 05:43:36 -0800 Subject: DisplayWriter apparently on Craigslist... In-Reply-To: <000a01d2578a$63a8dcc0$2afa9640$@gmail.com> References: <000a01d2578a$63a8dcc0$2afa9640$@gmail.com> Message-ID: hopefully, someone can pick these up it doesn't look like there is any software with it. would be nice to get images if there is any software with it if someone gets it, and tries to use the disk images on bitsavers, you will need to bulk erase the floppy you copy the diagnostic disk to since it expects one of the tracks to be unformatted On 12/16/16 2:51 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55404-IBM-Displaywriter > > > > > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM & EA7KAE > > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 16 07:43:36 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 13:43:36 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please Message-ID: Hi folks, I have an 8085-based viewdata telephone system on the bench that's proving to be a labour of love in trying to get it running with zero documentation - there are only 6 known examples that I've come across and all but 2 of them are in museums, none known to work. If any of you fancy searching it's an STC Executel 3910 and at least two of the hits you'll get will be my machine before I bought it. http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/stcexecutel01.jpg I've been in contact with all museums who have one, no luck on docs though the Museum of Computing which is local to me MAY have some (Jason the owner has 2 3910s himself), I just need to get down there and search for it :) Kind-of-fortunately the viewdata side of things seems standard - all 74LS TTL with an MC3242AP running 16x 4116-2 DRAMs, 27128 EEPROMs etc. The viewdata side of things is powered by a Plessey MR9735-002 teletext processor supported by a pair of 2112 RAM chips and an SAA5070 "LUCY". http://txlib.mb21.co.uk/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2034 ROM selection is done by a PAL but my EEPROM reader has verified that's OK and I have a dump of it as well as all the ROMs. Unfortunately it's suffered battery leakage and it was seemingly stored on its back in a very damp environment so some of the capacitors at the rear of the board have rotted and bits of the analogue board for the 5" TV had rusted to nothing, though I've replaced those. What I originally thought was an analogue board issue that I posted about here has turned into a total lack of timing issue so I've been tracing out all the circuits and building a schematic of the board. All was well until I came to the two chips you can see in the centre of this pic that have no markings (9B and 10B on the board): http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/stcexecuteltimingcircuits.jpg They aren't 'standard' 14-pin DIPs in that they don't follow the GND-on-pin-7-Vcc-on-pin-14 layout. Pins 6 and 7 on both are wired together (not to GND) and form the RESET signal for the 8085 via the 7414 at 10A, source for this signal is unknown currently. Pin 5 on both appears to be Vcc and pin 10 is GND or at least are pulled high and low respectively. The XTAL you can see with its supporting resistors is connected to the 7404 at 12B, pin 12 of which goes to pin 1 of 10B (one of the mystery chips) and pin 1 (X1) of the 8085. Any clues? I'm going to search for reference 8085 boards (and I guess 8086?) layouts to see if there are any similarities in timing circuits but for now I'm stumped. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 16 08:43:52 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 14:43:52 +0000 Subject: An interesting use of the 4004 instructions In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: The 4004 destroys the ACC on return from subroutine calls and one would have to use hard coded values to pass a value back so it is common to the use carry flag in a similar way to pass a status back. Since this the address part of the JCN instruction doesn't matter if it never does the branch, that is used as an entry point for the execution. The code would look like: LDM 0 SKIP LDM 1 SKIP LDM 2 SKIP LDM 3 XCH 4 SCR 4 BBL 0 Each of the LDM instructions is a point to branch into. Only the instruction at the first address is executed and the others are skipped. BBL is the I4004 return instruction, it loads the value into the ACC. I've looked at a several cases of I4004 code and this is the first time that I'd seen this skip trick used. The SKIP is really the JCN instruction without any condition and the address replaced by the LDM instruction. At first I thought it was bit rot in the old ROMs but each entry is used 8 times in code. It would be a JCN NEVER? One wonders what the assembly code originally looked like. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 4:55:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: An interesting use of the 4004 instructions > On Dec 15, 2016, at 2:52 PM, dwight wrote: > > I was looking at some disassembled 4004 code when I came across > > a SKIP operation. > > It isn't normally an instruction but If you do a JCN with all the CCCC = 0, > > it will do a NEVER jump. > > This is the equivalent of a SKIP instruction. > > I would suppose a JCN with CCCC = $8000 would be an always jump, > > on page ( not real useful as JUN takes the same cycles and space ). > > I thought at first there was some errors in the code because there > > were JMS to the middle of JCN instruction but then I noticed that there > > were no conditions specified for the JCN. A little thought and I realized > > it was a way to skip over a single byte instruction. It's a bit like a coding convention I've seen used a lot in PDP-11 code, at least in some programs; RSTS/E is full of them. Consider a function with two entry points, where Carry set or clear is used after entry to distinguish the two cases. The two entry points look like this: fun1: tst (pc)+ fun2: sec ; common code bcs case2 ; case1... Or a function that indicates a boolean result (say, success/fail) by Carry clear vs. set: good: tst (pc)+ fail: sec rts pc paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 16 10:07:52 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 11:07:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? Message-ID: <20161216160752.65A2718C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> As I finish going through the mounds of paper I've recently aquired, I now have a extra (duplicate) copy of the RK11-C manual (in the format of the early 11/20 manuals, i.e. 11"x17" sheets). Is anyone here qinterested in having it? Preferably somehow who actually has an RK11-C - I know there's at least one person on CCTalk who has one. If so, please let me know. (People who actually have an RK11-C get preference. And if you already have a copy, please don't try and hoard a second! :-) Noel From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Dec 16 10:31:09 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:31:09 +0000 Subject: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? Message-ID: Van: Noel Chiappa Verzonden: vrijdag 16 december 2016 17:08 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Onderwerp: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? As I finish going through the mounds of paper I've recently aquired, I now have a extra (duplicate) copy of the RK11-C manual (in the format of the early 11/20 manuals, i.e. 11"x17" sheets). Is anyone here qinterested in having it? Preferably somehow who actually has an RK11-C - I know there's at least one person on CCTalk who has one. If so, please let me know. (People who actually have an RK11-C get preference. And if you already have a copy, please don't try and hoard a second! :-) Noel I remember a week in 2005 (or thereabouts) when one RK11-C was on eBay. It went for $57 (IIRC). There have been a few occasions since then that I slap myself for not at least trying to get it ? Never seen a single RK11-C ever since. But I am not giving up hope ? I recently acquired something I did not think to be possible to happen ? I ?picked up? an H960 rack with RP11 controller and *three* RP03 disk drives aand 6 packs. The rack is already moved, the drives are a separate story. Each drive weighs 415 lbs. ?So what? you might ask. Well, they are in a cellar and three flights of stairs (10 steps, 6 steps, and 4 steps) is too much for 3 strong guys to push one drive up the stairs. We are now looking into another option to get the drives (and a DEC _line_printer, also very very heavy!) up to the first floor ? * Henk, PA8PDP From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 16 10:34:17 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 11:34:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161216163417.113C618C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > I wonder how the AI PDP-6 was used back in the day. I suppose ITS > development moved to the KA10 using the virtual memory pager, leaving > the 6 behind. But it was still attached as a slave CPU, right? Yes. There is a document, "February 1972 ITS Status Report", AIM-238, which is from a point in time when both CPUs were in operation as a dual-CPU system, with paging on the KA10, and it contains a considerable amount of technical detail. It is available here: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6194 as a scan, and someone has recently OCR'd it, here: http://its.victor.se/wiki/aim-238 The section you probably find most interesting is "Dual Processors" (pg. 29), which describes the unified, shared I/O bus. The earlier "ITS 1.5 Status Manual" might also be interesting; it covers a point in time when I think they only had a PDP-6. >> I think all the DM people are still around - why not ask one of them >> for more? > I will. I'd be interested to hear anything about the DM PDP-6 which you find out. Ideally it would be optimal to load any information into the Computer History Wiki, but alas, creation of new accounts on that seems to be wedged at the moment; I'm working on trying to get that solved. Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Dec 16 10:51:48 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 08:51:48 -0800 Subject: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? In-Reply-To: <20161216160752.65A2718C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161216160752.65A2718C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4D3F65C2-2BDD-4FB6-A71E-662EE97B3AA7@fritzm.org> > Is anyone here qinterested in having it? Preferably somehow who actually has > an RK11-C - I know there's at least one person on CCTalk who has one. Hi Noel ? I have an RK11-C (and two RK05s) that I am just about to dive in on. I would appreciate this document, unless it is needed for scanning by any of the archivists? thanks, ?FritzM. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 10:53:56 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:53:56 +0000 Subject: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > > Van: Noel Chiappa > Verzonden: vrijdag 16 december 2016 17:08 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Onderwerp: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? > > As I finish going through the mounds of paper I've recently aquired, I now > have a extra (duplicate) copy of the RK11-C manual (in the format of the early > 11/20 manuals, i.e. 11"x17" sheets). > > Is anyone here qinterested in having it? Preferably somehow who actually has > an RK11-C - I know there's at least one person on CCTalk who has one. > > If so, please let me know. (People who actually have an RK11-C get > preference. And if you already have a copy, please don't try and hoard a > second! :-) > > Noel > To comment on that, I have an RK11-C, but I am pretty sure I have the manual. I certainly have an original of the printset. > > > But I am not giving up hope ? I recently acquired something I did not think > to be possible to happen ? I ?picked up? an H960 rack with RP11 controller > and *three* RP03 disk drives aand 6 packs. The rack is already moved, the > drives are a separate story. Each drive weighs 415 lbs. ?So what? you might > ask. Well, they are in a cellar and three flights of stairs (10 steps, 6 steps, > and 4 steps) is too much for 3 strong guys to push one drive up the stairs. > We are now looking into another option to get the drives (and a DEC > _line_printer, also very very heavy!) up to the first floor ? Can these units be dismantled without totally losing alignment,etc. At least remove PSUs, spindle motors, etc. I once moved an RA60 (much lighter, but still too heavy for one person to carry easily) downstairs by taking it almost completely apart. Incidentally, it is surprising how much the PCBs in a full cardcage weight, it is often worth pulling them all out. I suspect an RP03 dismantled like that would still be too heavy for one person to move, but with 3 people it might be possible. I hope your upstairs floor is strong enough for them... You do not want them coming back downstairs at 9.81m/s^2 -tony From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Dec 16 11:57:31 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:31 -0800 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F4A0ADA61994772A2089CAD05DDC0D1@Vincew7> From: Adrian Graham: Friday, December 16, 2016 5:43 AM > They aren't 'standard' 14-pin DIPs in that they don't follow the > GND-on-pin-7-Vcc-on-pin-14 layout. Pins 6 and 7 on both are wired together > (not to GND) and form the RESET signal for the 8085 via the 7414 at 10A, > source for this signal is unknown currently. Pin 5 on both appears to be Vcc > and pin 10 is GND or at least are pulled high and low respectively. If you had Vcc on 10 and GND on 5, I'd suggest UA733. There aren't a lot of 14 pin chips with the power pins on 5 and 10. (More with 4 and 11.) Vince From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Dec 16 12:19:20 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 18:19:20 +0000 (WET) Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 16 Dec 2016 13:43:36 +0000" Message-ID: <01Q8K4D6Q2QW001PAX@beyondthepale.ie> > > They aren't 'standard' 14-pin DIPs in that they don't follow the > GND-on-pin-7-Vcc-on-pin-14 layout. Pins 6 and 7 on both are wired together > (not to GND) and form the RESET signal for the 8085 via the 7414 at 10A, > source for this signal is unknown currently. Pin 5 on both appears to be Vcc > and pin 10 is GND or at least are pulled high and low respectively. > Could they be 74(LS)90? Those have Vcc on pin 5 and GND on pin 10. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 12:25:21 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 18:25:21 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: <01Q8K4D6Q2QW001PAX@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01Q8K4D6Q2QW001PAX@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 6:19 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> >> They aren't 'standard' 14-pin DIPs in that they don't follow the >> GND-on-pin-7-Vcc-on-pin-14 layout. Pins 6 and 7 on both are wired together >> (not to GND) and form the RESET signal for the 8085 via the 7414 at 10A, >> source for this signal is unknown currently. Pin 5 on both appears to be Vcc >> and pin 10 is GND or at least are pulled high and low respectively. >> > > Could they be 74(LS)90? Those have Vcc on pin 5 and GND on pin 10. And IIRC pins 6 and 7 are reset _inputs_ on the 74x90 (I don't have the pinouts to hand, what about the 74x92 or more likely 74x93?). But active high, not active low. So it's possible the reset signal comes from elsewhere, resets these counters (as some kind of clock divider chain) and is inverted by that '14 to feed the 8085 reset input. I doubt it's a uA733. I can think of no logical reason to have one of those in this sort of circuit. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 12:35:07 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 18:35:07 +0000 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 Message-ID: I have been given an H960 rack :-). I intend to use it for my PDP8/e system (currently piled up, not connected), which consists of the : PDP8/e processor, Full of cards, memory extension, EAE, 32KW core, boot diode matrix ROM, RK8e, RD8e, RX8e, PC8e, etc. PC04 paper tape punch/reader (acutally, I converted a PC05, but that doesn't matter here) RK05 (well, there's an RK8e in the backplane and I have a spare RK05 so I might as well use it) RX01 TU56 (single drive version, ths is not a TU55 as some have suggested!). Various PSUs and step-down transformer for the TU56 and PC04 I think I have the right slide rails for the first 4 units too... Anyway, does anyone have experience of rack-mounting a TU56? It clearly doesn't go on slide rails, it bolts directly to the rack (hinge down the front panel for access). I have the manuals from Bitsavers, they imply there is some kind of spacer block that goes under the TU56. Does anyone know what that is exactly so I can attempt to make one if it is needed. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 12:51:46 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 13:51:46 -0500 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Gesswein https://www.pdp8.net/8eperiph.shtml On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I have been given an H960 rack :-). I intend to use it for my PDP8/e system > (currently piled up, not connected), which consists of the : > > PDP8/e processor, Full of cards, memory extension, EAE, 32KW core, boot > diode matrix ROM, RK8e, RD8e, RX8e, PC8e, etc. > > PC04 paper tape punch/reader (acutally, I converted a PC05, but that > doesn't > matter here) > > RK05 (well, there's an RK8e in the backplane and I have a spare RK05 so > I might as well use it) > > RX01 > > TU56 (single drive version, ths is not a TU55 as some have suggested!). > > Various PSUs and step-down transformer for the TU56 and PC04 > > I think I have the right slide rails for the first 4 units too... > > Anyway, does anyone have experience of rack-mounting a TU56? It clearly > doesn't go on slide rails, it bolts directly to the rack (hinge down the > front > panel for access). I have the manuals from Bitsavers, they imply there is > some > kind of spacer block that goes under the TU56. Does anyone know what that > is exactly so I can attempt to make one if it is needed. > > -tony > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 16 12:51:59 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 18:51:59 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: References: <01Q8K4D6Q2QW001PAX@beyondthepale.ie>, Message-ID: If one of the 749X parts, one should be able to figure it out by looking at the NC pins. The different chips look to have different NC pins. If something is connected to one for one of them, it would most likely be one of the others. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Tony Duell Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 10:25:21 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 6:19 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> >> They aren't 'standard' 14-pin DIPs in that they don't follow the >> GND-on-pin-7-Vcc-on-pin-14 layout. Pins 6 and 7 on both are wired together >> (not to GND) and form the RESET signal for the 8085 via the 7414 at 10A, >> source for this signal is unknown currently. Pin 5 on both appears to be Vcc >> and pin 10 is GND or at least are pulled high and low respectively. >> > > Could they be 74(LS)90? Those have Vcc on pin 5 and GND on pin 10. And IIRC pins 6 and 7 are reset _inputs_ on the 74x90 (I don't have the pinouts to hand, what about the 74x92 or more likely 74x93?). But active high, not active low. So it's possible the reset signal comes from elsewhere, resets these counters (as some kind of clock divider chain) and is inverted by that '14 to feed the 8085 reset input. I doubt it's a uA733. I can think of no logical reason to have one of those in this sort of circuit. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 16 13:12:45 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 13:12:45 -0600 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> Tony wrote... > Anyway, does anyone have experience of rack-mounting a TU56? It > clearly doesn't go on slide rails, it bolts directly to the rack > (hinge down the front panel for access). I have the manuals from > Bitsavers, they imply there is some kind of spacer block that goes > under the TU56. Does anyone know what that is exactly so I can > attempt to make one if it is needed. Yes, I rackmounted a tu56 a few weeks ago. I also saw the docs mention that spacer, but I think it wasn't technically necessary based on where I was putting it. I will go look at that rack shortly and let you know today. I can tell you - be careful about putting it all the way at the top. The front deck can't tilt downward if the upper edge doesn't have clearance. Then again - anyone who has met me knows I'd never mount a peripheral requiring hands on that far up in a cabinet *grin* Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to get a group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... J From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Fri Dec 16 13:15:07 2016 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 20:15:07 +0100 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3078cee5-1cd2-7063-4422-8bd8ae2569a2@greenmail.ch> > Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to get a group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... Count me in.... Jos From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 13:18:43 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 19:18:43 +0000 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 7:12 PM, Jay West wrote: > Tony wrote... >> Anyway, does anyone have experience of rack-mounting a TU56? It >> clearly doesn't go on slide rails, it bolts directly to the rack >> (hinge down the front panel for access). I have the manuals from >> Bitsavers, they imply there is some kind of spacer block that goes >> under the TU56. Does anyone know what that is exactly so I can >> attempt to make one if it is needed. > > Yes, I rackmounted a tu56 a few weeks ago. I also saw the docs mention that > spacer, but I think it wasn't technically necessary based on where I was putting > it. I will go look at that rack shortly and let you know today. OK, thanks, Are the screws through the TU56 front flanges into the front rails of the rack enough to support it? I don't care too much what it looks like. If the spacer is just a filler panel type thing and doesn't support the TU56 in any way then I don't need to worry about it. > > I can tell you - be careful about putting it all the way at the top. The front deck can't tilt > downward if the upper edge doesn't have clearance. ARGH. I was planning on putting it at the top of the rack. But surely it will just catch on that plastic decor panel, I can either trim that a bit or put spacers under the fixing screws. The only other think I could put at the top is the PC04, perhaps that would be easier. > > Then again - anyone who has met me knows I'd never mount a peripheral requiring > hands on that far up in a cabinet *grin* I am tall enough that that is not a problem. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 13:41:17 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 14:41:17 -0500 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Jay West wrote: > Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to get a group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... I need a few. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 13:58:05 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 14:58:05 -0500 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 7:12 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Tony wrote... >>> Anyway, does anyone have experience of rack-mounting a TU56? >> >> I can tell you - be careful about putting it all the way at the top. The front deck can't tilt >> downward if the upper edge doesn't have clearance. > > ARGH. I was planning on putting it at the top of the rack. But surely it will > just catch on that plastic decor panel, I can either trim that a bit > or put spacers under the fixing screws. I checked my one H960 - the TC11 is at the top, then both TU56s are below that, where someone my height can reach the tapes. ;-) The TU56 on a TD8E on my PDP-8/e has always been on the table. It's never been in a rack. If I find another H967 cabinet, that will be a good thing to check since the TU56 would be easy to use in the top spot (there's no top-mount plastic panel on an H967, so it might fit there just fine). -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Dec 16 14:03:00 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 20:03:00 +0000 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 Message-ID: Van: Ethan Dicks Verzonden: vrijdag 16 december 2016 20:43 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Rack-mounting a TU56 On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Jay West wrote: > Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to get a group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... I need a few. -ethan I have one TU56. There will come a day that I am up to connect it ? Until then I don?t know in what shape the run caps are, so I probably do wise to join in this group buy opportunity ? depending the cost ? * Henk, PA8PDP From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 16 14:05:42 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 14:05:42 -0600 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000201d257d7$c79595a0$56c0c0e0$@classiccmp.org> Ok I just double-checked my 8E racks, and it refreshed my memory. The support bracket is not necessary. I believe that it provided no benefit after the TU56 was mounted... it was merely present in order to make it even possible for one person to bolt the tu56 to the uprights. It is a non-trivial amount of weight, so holding it in place while bolting it in is tenuous at the least and most likely impossible. The support bracket just provides a front edge to help hold it up during installation. Being a stickler for authenticity, I was looking for that support bracket but never did find one. So... I wound up using one of those horizontal bars/plates that were commonly (DEC provided) mounted above and below a stack of lead counterweights, as it's mechanically almost identical and provides exactly the same benefit in the same spot. I left it installed, in case I ever wanted to move the TU56. All this occurred in the short version of the H960 (I forget... H962? The one with the sloped front). The sloped front at the top was just the tiniest fraction too far out to allow the TU56 deck to tilt down - despite the fact that DEC obviously took pains to make it require no clearance overhead. Since you're using a full height H960 with a different nameplate piece at the top... it may just work fine. But given the weight, I'd not try it "just to see" ;) YMMV J From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Dec 16 14:17:02 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 12:17:02 -0800 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <08A776903BB8482D8900249C045467C0@Vincew7> From: Jay West: Friday, December 16, 2016 11:12 AM > Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to get a > group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... I have a couple of spares, IIRC, but since I also have a couple of TU55, a couple of TU56, and a TU56H, I'd like to join in if there is a group purchase. Vince From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 14:17:59 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 20:17:59 +0000 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: <000201d257d7$c79595a0$56c0c0e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> <000201d257d7$c79595a0$56c0c0e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 8:05 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ok I just double-checked my 8E racks, and it refreshed my memory. > > The support bracket is not necessary. I believe that it provided no benefit after the TU56 > was mounted... it was merely present in order to make it even possible for one person > to bolt the tu56 to the uprights. It is a non-trivial amount of weight, so holding it in place > while bolting it in is tenuous at the least and most likely impossible. The support bracket > just provides a front edge to help hold it up during installation. OK. Sounds like I can live without it. I had considered making a rail with tapped holes in the ends to mount across the rack on the front set of side flanges. But I don't think I need that. > > Being a stickler for authenticity, I was looking for that support bracket but never did find one. > So... I wound up using one of those horizontal bars/plates that were commonly (DEC provided) > mounted above and below a stack of lead counterweights, as it's mechanically almost identical > and provides exactly the same benefit in the same spot. I left it installed, in case I ever wanted > to move the TU56. I am not sure what parts you are talking about here, or why. > > All this occurred in the short version of the H960 (I forget... H962? The one with the sloped front). > The sloped front at the top was just the tiniest fraction too far out to allow the TU56 deck to tilt > down - despite the fact that DEC obviously took pains to make it require no clearance overhead. > Since you're using a full height H960 with a different nameplate piece at the top... it may just > work fine. > > But given the weight, I'd not try it "just to see" ;) YMMV The recommendation in the manual is to remove the front panel from the TU56, rack mount the chassis and put the panel back on. I think I do have to try it to see and I am doing it on my own. But then again, I have rack-mounted other heavy units on my own... -tony From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Dec 16 14:23:05 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 21:23:05 +0100 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20161216202305.GA5974@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 01:12:45PM -0600, Jay West wrote: > > Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to get > a group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... > Are these the big honking cans that have grown a nice little crystal structure near one connector? yeah, I thunk I need a pair for mu TU56H If me being in sweden makes it to much hassle then I'm I'll try to get them myself, no worries. /P From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Dec 16 14:23:14 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 20:23:14 +0000 Subject: heavy stuff -- was: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? Message-ID: Van: Tony Duell Verzonden: vrijdag 16 december 2016 17:54 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > But I am not giving up hope ? I recently acquired something I did not think > to be possible to happen ? I ?picked up? an H960 rack with RP11 controller > and *three* RP03 disk drives aand 6 packs. The rack is already moved, the > drives are a separate story. Each drive weighs 415 lbs. ?So what? you might > ask. Well, they are in a cellar and three flights of stairs (10 steps, 6 steps, > and 4 steps) is too much for 3 strong guys to push one drive up the stairs. > We are now looking into another option to get the drives (and a DEC > _line_printer, also very very heavy!) up to the first floor ? Can these units be dismantled without totally losing alignment,etc. At least remove PSUs, spindle motors, etc. I once moved an RA60 (much lighter, but still too heavy for one person to carry easily) downstairs by taking it almost completely apart. Incidentally, it is surprising how much the PCBs in a full cardcage weight, it is often worth pulling them all out. I suspect an RP03 dismantled like that would still be too heavy for one person to move, but with 3 people it might be possible. I hope your upstairs floor is strong enough for them... You do not want them coming back downstairs at 9.81m/s^2 -tony Grin ? I don?t plan to check whether Mother Earth?s acceleration is still working fine. Indeed, the RA60 is heavy. Just like RA81?s, the RA60 is not good for your back, but the RA60 is worse than the RA81. The RA60 is also ?longer? compared to the RA81, and that does not help either when you hav to move an RA60 around. I really do not want to mess with the mechanical construction of the entire RP03 drive. They are too rare. I want to move them ?as is?. The only thing that can be done easily is removing the side panels. However, the ceiling in the cellar has an opening although that is currently welded by a closing lid. The system was installed in the 80ties, and it is not remembered how the system got into the cellar back then. The system has operated in that cellar for almost 20 years (PDP-11/40, RP11, Kennedy 9100 ? 3 H960 rack system). I used wooden planks (shelves) laid on the stairs, and then pushed the racks up. It was heavy, even for 3 strong guys --- OK, 2.5 ? I removed the Kennedy tape drive to make the rack less heavy. The rack with the RP11 controller was also heavy, but I really did not want to pull or dismantle anything of it. We got it out of the cellar. The 11/40 (the 21? version in BA11-F, IIRC) rack had, to my surprise an extra BA11-F with its H742 PSU ? One H742 PSU is already heavy, so two of these beast made the rack way too heavy. I ended up with disconnecting the power harness and move the 11/40 separately. That made it possible to move the rack upstairs (with sweat and some swearing ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H calling in the help of some gods ? We did try moving one RP03 by pushing it upstairs using the ?planks? trick. Three guys asking ?are we pushing?? Yes, but the drive did not move at all. The RP03 is by far the most heavy item I encountered in 20 years! We are now looking into the option to hoist the drives via the hatch in the Ceiling. Needless to say we take all possible precautions ? for people and for RP03?s. To be continued, * Henk, PA8PDP From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 16 09:44:57 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 10:44:57 -0500 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4682bbd2-da54-d328-7f31-b94c4d5fe5eb@verizon.net> On 12/16/2016 08:43 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > I have an 8085-based viewdata telephone system on the bench that's proving > to be a labour of love in trying to get it running with zero documentation - > there are only 6 known examples that I've come across and all but 2 of them > are in museums, none known to work. If any of you fancy searching it's an > STC Executel 3910 and at least two of the hits you'll get will be my machine > before I bought it. > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/stcexecutel01.jpg > > I've been in contact with all museums who have one, no luck on docs though > the Museum of Computing which is local to me MAY have some (Jason the owner > has 2 3910s himself), I just need to get down there and search for it :) > > Kind-of-fortunately the viewdata side of things seems standard - all 74LS > TTL with an MC3242AP running 16x 4116-2 DRAMs, 27128 EEPROMs etc. The > viewdata side of things is powered by a Plessey MR9735-002 teletext > processor supported by a pair of 2112 RAM chips and an SAA5070 "LUCY". > > http://txlib.mb21.co.uk/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2034 > > ROM selection is done by a PAL but my EEPROM reader has verified that's OK > and I have a dump of it as well as all the ROMs. > > Unfortunately it's suffered battery leakage and it was seemingly stored on > its back in a very damp environment so some of the capacitors at the rear of > the board have rotted and bits of the analogue board for the 5" TV had > rusted to nothing, though I've replaced those. > > What I originally thought was an analogue board issue that I posted about > here has turned into a total lack of timing issue so I've been tracing out > all the circuits and building a schematic of the board. All was well until I > came to the two chips you can see in the centre of this pic that have no > markings (9B and 10B on the board): > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/stcexecuteltimingcircuits.jpg > > They aren't 'standard' 14-pin DIPs in that they don't follow the > GND-on-pin-7-Vcc-on-pin-14 layout. Pins 6 and 7 on both are wired together > (not to GND) and form the RESET signal for the 8085 via the 7414 at 10A, > source for this signal is unknown currently. Pin 5 on both appears to be Vcc > and pin 10 is GND or at least are pulled high and low respectively. > > The XTAL you can see with its supporting resistors is connected to the 7404 > at 12B, pin 12 of which goes to pin 1 of 10B (one of the mystery chips) and > pin 1 (X1) of the 8085. IF I had to throw a wild guess either a baud rate generator chip, an N-stage counter like CD4040 or 4060 or one of many low number cmos (CD4xxx parts) wired as oscillator. most of those had non TTL style pin outs. Allison > Any clues? I'm going to search for reference 8085 boards (and I guess 8086?) > layouts to see if there are any similarities in timing circuits but for now > I'm stumped. > > Cheers! > From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Dec 16 11:35:33 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:35:33 -0800 Subject: Found in data center In-Reply-To: <781332AB-FDC0-47D0-B15D-EBF62F97074D@shiresoft.com> References: <781332AB-FDC0-47D0-B15D-EBF62F97074D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Hello, If I can get the stuff (They would not let me have the mainframe) I'll let you know. No problem shipping since I doubt anything is fragile. -pete On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:20 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > If no one else wants/claims this, I will as it looks like mainframe stuff. > > Will you box/ship? > > TTFN - Guy > > > On Dec 14, 2016, at 10:54 AM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > > > > An old cabinet that only IBM had the key, they came by took what they > > wanted and left it full > > > > I only got a quick shot of what's in there .. any interest ? Located > > Portland, Oregon > > > > https://goo.gl/photos/rSUZ9nnxsrxN8nku5 > > > From cruff at ruffspot.net Fri Dec 16 13:04:20 2016 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 12:04:20 -0700 Subject: HP 9875A usable for interchange with 85 or 9825? Message-ID: I?m working on getting my 9875A dual DC100A tape drive operational, but have come across a strange issue. This 9875A seems to have the reversed sense of on which reel the rewind places the tape as compared to my 85B and 9825T (which agree is the left hand one as viewed when inserting the tape into the drive). I don?t yet know that the 9875A is operating fully, but it passes the non-tape movement selftest. The 9875A manual mentions it being useful for interchange among systems, and the tape structure (Standard Interchange Format - SIL) matches that of the 98x5 series, and it appears uses the same tape control chip as described in the April 1978 HP Journal article on the 9845. I guess there could be a failure on the tape control board that is reversing the motor control direction, as both drives behave in the same way, or is causing the firmware to think it is at the wrong end of the tape. Has anyone used the 9875A in this way? I was thinking it could be a way to load binary programs into the 9825. From cramcram at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 13:30:06 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 11:30:06 -0800 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: <3078cee5-1cd2-7063-4422-8bd8ae2569a2@greenmail.ch> References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> <3078cee5-1cd2-7063-4422-8bd8ae2569a2@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: I replaced my motor caps with some that I found on Alibaba (or maybe Aliexpress) a couple of years ago. They are the right diameter and height and have wire leads instead of lugs. They're also made with yummy vegatable oil and seem to work just fine (no big loud bangs yet). Marc On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:15 AM, jos wrote: > > Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to get a >> group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... >> > > Count me in.... > > Jos > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 14:31:19 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 20:31:19 +0000 Subject: heavy stuff -- was: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 8:23 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > Grin ? I don?t plan to check whether Mother Earth?s acceleration is still working fine. > Indeed, the RA60 is heavy. Just like RA81?s, the RA60 is not good for your back, but > the RA60 is worse than the RA81. The RA60 is also ?longer? compared to the RA81, > and that does not help either when you hav to move an RA60 around. I'm doing an RA80-like thing soon. Actually an R80, going at the bottom of a half-height rack for the 11/730. I am building that one up in the rack. No way am I lifting it fully assembled (and actually DEC suggest you remove the HDA first). > > I really do not want to mess with the mechanical construction of the entire RP03 > drive. They are too rare. I want to move them ?as is?. The only thing that can be > done easily is removing the side panels. Maybe I have more (unjustified) confidnnce in my abilities to get things back together again, but in my case I think I would feel there was less risk of damage if I took the thing apart than if I tried to move it assembled. I wouldn't touch the heads or positioner parts (A full alignment would be 'interesting') but I would certainly remove the spindle all PCBs, mains transformer/PSU parts, blower, etc. > However, the ceiling in the cellar has an opening although that is currently welded > by a closing lid. The system was installed in the 80ties, and it is not remembered > how the system got into the cellar back then. The system has operated in that cellar > for almost 20 years (PDP-11/40, RP11, Kennedy 9100 ? 3 H960 rack system). > > I used wooden planks (shelves) laid on the stairs, and then pushed the racks up. > It was heavy, even for 3 strong guys --- OK, 2.5 ? I removed the Kennedy tape Get more strong friends :-). Be warned that unless they have experience in moving classic computers you might regret it, -tony From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Dec 16 14:36:49 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 20:36:49 +0000 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 Message-ID: Van: Jay West Verzonden: vrijdag 16 december 2016 21:05 Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Onderwerp: RE: Rack-mounting a TU56 Ok I just double-checked my 8E racks, and it refreshed my memory. The support bracket is not necessary. I believe that it provided no benefit after the TU56 was mounted... it was merely present in order to make it even possible for one person to bolt the tu56 to the uprights. It is a non-trivial amount of weight, so holding it in place while bolting it in is tenuous at the least and most likely impossible. The support bracket just provides a front edge to help hold it up during installation. But given the weight, I'd not try it "just to see" ;) YMMV That is my experience too. But I did that mounting job in the rack back when I was 15 years younger. Age does not help in this case. It can be done by one person, but indeed ? it is not non-trivial! If you start with an empty rack, and the TU56 is the first device you want to install in the rack, you can lay down the rack on the floor and then ?drop? the drive into the rack. Bolting it in place with the 4 screws at each side is ?piece of cake?. I used this ?procedure? also to mount two RK05 drive in the top of an H960 rack. Getting the rack upright with the two RK05?s was another story ? The more a rack is filled (in the lower part), the heavier tilting and laying down will become, but it is possible. * Henk, PA8PDP From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 14:36:55 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 15:36:55 -0500 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: <000201d257d7$c79595a0$56c0c0e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> <000201d257d7$c79595a0$56c0c0e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 3:05 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ok I just double-checked my 8E racks, and it refreshed my memory. > > The support bracket is not necessary... > > All this occurred in the short version of the H960 (I forget... H962? The one with the sloped front). H967 http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_cabinets.jpg > The sloped front at the top was just the tiniest fraction too far out to allow the TU56 deck to tilt down - despite the fact that DEC obviously took pains to make it require no clearance overhead. That is exactly what I was just wondering. Thanks! -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 16 14:48:32 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 12:48:32 -0800 Subject: Found in data center In-Reply-To: References: <781332AB-FDC0-47D0-B15D-EBF62F97074D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Contact me off-list (ggs at shiresoft.com) for shipping information. Thanks. TTFN - Guy > On Dec 16, 2016, at 9:35 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > Hello, > > If I can get the stuff (They would not let me have the mainframe) I'll let > you know. No problem shipping since I doubt anything is fragile. > > -pete > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:20 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr > wrote: > >> If no one else wants/claims this, I will as it looks like mainframe stuff. >> >> Will you box/ship? >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> On Dec 14, 2016, at 10:54 AM, Pete Lancashire >> wrote: >>> >>> An old cabinet that only IBM had the key, they came by took what they >>> wanted and left it full >>> >>> I only got a quick shot of what's in there .. any interest ? Located >>> Portland, Oregon >>> >>> https://goo.gl/photos/rSUZ9nnxsrxN8nku5 >> >> >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 16 15:43:26 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:43:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: heavy stuff -- was: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? Message-ID: <20161216214326.DF9B318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen > I really do not want to mess with the mechanical construction of the > entire RP03 drive. ... I want to move them "as is". Well, don't forget, you're probably going to want to go through them thoroughly before you try and use them, and you might do a fair amount of dis-assembly for that anyway. So a certain amount of 'taking apart' to get it out would be useful. Noel From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 18:25:06 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 18:25:06 -0600 Subject: A Healthy Haul for the Holidays? Tuscon, AZ Message-ID: Spotted on Craigslist, no prices known, no relation to seller, but some nice items: https://tucson.craigslist.org/sys/5846658097.html Highlights (IMO): 3B2/400, Xerox Star, HP6000/300, Televideo 910 and lots of micro and workstation stuff besides. -j From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 16 19:01:03 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 19:01:03 -0600 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> <000201d257d7$c79595a0$56c0c0e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000d01d25801$0a58d090$1f0a71b0$@classiccmp.org> I had written.... > Being a stickler for authenticity, I was looking for that support bracket but never did find one. > So... I wound up using one of those horizontal bars/plates that were > commonly (DEC provided) mounted above and below a stack of lead > counterweights, as it's mechanically almost identical and provides > exactly the same benefit in the same spot. I left it installed, in case I ever wanted to move the TU56. To which Tony replied.... ----- I am not sure what parts you are talking about here, or why. ----- I am talking about a fairly common dec part, that if you have it - can substitute for the support bracket that you are missing. It is the same dimensions, is threaded at the same spots... the only difference was the support bracket has some metal cutouts that the "alternate" part doesn't. If you have a DEC rack (I know DEC did this in H967's and may have done it in H960's) that has lead counterweights in the back.... you will note that the plates bolted in the rack under the lead weights (and usually another plate on top of them just to make it look nice).... that plate is basically identical to the TU-56 support bracket you are seeking and will work functionally - exactly like the support bracket. J From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 16 19:28:54 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 20:28:54 -0500 Subject: heavy stuff -- was: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? In-Reply-To: <20161216214326.DF9B318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161216214326.DF9B318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4490F8F6-1577-46CE-BAED-48B21B078841@comcast.net> > On Dec 16, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Henk Gooijen > >> I really do not want to mess with the mechanical construction of the >> entire RP03 drive. ... I want to move them "as is". > > Well, don't forget, you're probably going to want to go through them > thoroughly before you try and use them, and you might do a fair amount of > dis-assembly for that anyway. So a certain amount of 'taking apart' to get > it out would be useful. Disconnecting controllers from the drive electronics, or main drive logic boards from the head cabling, might be a reasonable thing to do. Disassembling the mechanics is quite another matter. The spindle and head actuator assemblies are precision mechanisms with very tight tolerances and alignment requirements. It's not clear if those are documented since messing with them in the field would not be normal practice. And I suspect that few, if any, of us have the tools or metrological skills to reassemble dismantled drives. Some are less fussy. I know from having seen it done that you can take an RF11 drive apart and rebuild it, though chances are you might have to reformat it if you do. But the tolerances on those are incredibly loose compared to moving head drives. paul From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 23:32:27 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 21:32:27 -0800 Subject: ISO: RL02 cable Message-ID: <6f11b0bb-beda-7d5c-c1a0-9b9f2fa0df3a@gmail.com> Hi all -- I'm in need of an RL02 cable (drive to drive). I picked up a second drive for my PDP-11/40 and I'd like to get it hooked up. Thanks as always, Josh From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 23:51:50 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 05:51:50 +0000 Subject: heavy stuff -- was: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? In-Reply-To: <4490F8F6-1577-46CE-BAED-48B21B078841@comcast.net> References: <20161216214326.DF9B318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4490F8F6-1577-46CE-BAED-48B21B078841@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 1:28 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Dec 16, 2016, at 4:43 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> From: Henk Gooijen >> >>> I really do not want to mess with the mechanical construction of the >>> entire RP03 drive. ... I want to move them "as is". >> >> Well, don't forget, you're probably going to want to go through them >> thoroughly before you try and use them, and you might do a fair amount of >> dis-assembly for that anyway. So a certain amount of 'taking apart' to get >> it out would be useful. > > Disconnecting controllers from the drive electronics, or main drive logic boards > from the head cabling, might be a reasonable thing to do. > > Disassembling the mechanics is quite another matter. The spindle and head > actuator assemblies are precision mechanisms with very tight tolerances and > alignment requirements. It's not clear if those are documented since messing > with them in the field would not be normal practice. And I suspect that few, if > any, of us have the tools or metrological skills to reassemble dismantled drives. As I said, I would not touch any part of the heads or positioner (actuator). Unless whole assembly can be removed as a complete 'module' (as is the case in the RA60). I also would not attempt to dismantle the spindle. But often the complete spindle and bearings can be unbolted and lifted out. On a servo-positioned drive (as I believe this is) this will not affect alignment. And replacing the complete spindle assembly was a field repair on most such drives. Things like the spindle motor (I assume this drive is belt driven), blower, etc are not that critical and can be removed without problems. Is the a maintenance manual for this drive available. It should give the order for removing parts (basically don't do anything that involves removing heads!) and tell you if any alignment is needed when replacing them. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 01:56:03 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 02:56:03 -0500 Subject: ISO: RL02 cable In-Reply-To: <6f11b0bb-beda-7d5c-c1a0-9b9f2fa0df3a@gmail.com> References: <6f11b0bb-beda-7d5c-c1a0-9b9f2fa0df3a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 12:32 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm in need of an RL02 cable (drive to drive). I picked up a second drive > for my PDP-11/40 and I'd like to get it hooked up. > > Thanks as always, > > Josh > > I don't have a spare, but just to follow up on our earlier conversation I was able to remedy the DC LO issue on my 11/40 so I could work on 15V going to the RL11 controller as you suggested. One issue remains however. When I power on I get the correct quiescent lights, but address line 16 comes on when one pressed the LOAD ADDR switch for any address, (and paddle 16 was not up)? Same effect if I switch out RAM, it's not caused by the RAM nor the M9312. I still get this effect even if I have no RAM in the system. I thought for sure this was a specific error, but I can't seem to find it in my notes or docs. I have seen this before. M7231? If you know great if not I will keep looking and testing. I am very encouraged as to your progress with the 11/34 and I hope soon to finally get my 11/40 booting with an RL02. BIll From ed at groenenberg.net Fri Dec 16 14:38:30 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 21:38:30 +0100 (CET) Subject: heavy stuff -- was: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39273.10.10.10.2.1481920710.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Henk, Have you tried using a block and tackle to pull the drived up the stairs using the planks? Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz On Fri, December 16, 2016 21:23, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > > > Van: Tony Duell > Verzonden: vrijdag 16 december 2016 17:54 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Henk Gooijen > wrote: >> >> But I am not giving up hope ??? I recently acquired something I did not >> think >> to be possible to happen ??? I ???picked up??? an H960 rack with RP11 >> controller >> and *three* RP03 disk drives aand 6 packs. The rack is already moved, >> the >> drives are a separate story. Each drive weighs 415 lbs. ???So what??? >> you might >> ask. Well, they are in a cellar and three flights of stairs (10 steps, 6 >> steps, >> and 4 steps) is too much for 3 strong guys to push one drive up the >> stairs. >> We are now looking into another option to get the drives (and a DEC >> _line_printer, also very very heavy!) up to the first floor ??? > > Can these units be dismantled without totally losing alignment,etc. At > least > remove PSUs, spindle motors, etc. I once moved an RA60 (much lighter, > but still too heavy for one person to carry easily) downstairs by taking > it > almost completely apart. Incidentally, it is surprising how much the PCBs > in a full cardcage weight, it is often worth pulling them all out. > > I suspect an RP03 dismantled like that would still be too heavy for one > person > to move, but with 3 people it might be possible. > > I hope your upstairs floor is strong enough for them... You do not want > them > coming back downstairs at 9.81m/s^2 > > -tony > > > Grin ??? I don???t plan to check whether Mother Earth???s acceleration is > still working fine. > Indeed, the RA60 is heavy. Just like RA81???s, the RA60 is not good for > your back, but > the RA60 is worse than the RA81. The RA60 is also ???longer??? compared to > the RA81, > and that does not help either when you hav to move an RA60 around. > > I really do not want to mess with the mechanical construction of the > entire RP03 > drive. They are too rare. I want to move them ???as is???. The only thing > that can be > done easily is removing the side panels. > However, the ceiling in the cellar has an opening although that is > currently welded > by a closing lid. The system was installed in the 80ties, and it is not > remembered > how the system got into the cellar back then. The system has operated in > that cellar > for almost 20 years (PDP-11/40, RP11, Kennedy 9100 ??? 3 H960 rack > system). > > I used wooden planks (shelves) laid on the stairs, and then pushed the > racks up. > It was heavy, even for 3 strong guys --- OK, 2.5 ???? I removed the > Kennedy tape > drive to make the rack less heavy. The rack with the RP11 controller was > also > heavy, but I really did not want to pull or dismantle anything of it. We > got it out > of the cellar. The 11/40 (the 21??? version in BA11-F, IIRC) rack had, to > my surprise > an extra BA11-F with its H742 PSU ??? One H742 PSU is already heavy, so > two of > these beast made the rack way too heavy. I ended up with disconnecting > the > power harness and move the 11/40 separately. That made it possible to > move > the rack upstairs (with sweat and some swearing ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H calling > in the help of some gods ???? > > We did try moving one RP03 by pushing it upstairs using the ???planks??? > trick. > Three guys asking ???are we pushing???? Yes, but the drive did not move > at all. > The RP03 is by far the most heavy item I encountered in 20 years! > We are now looking into the option to hoist the drives via the hatch in > the > Ceiling. Needless to say we take all possible precautions ??? for people > and for > RP03???s. > > To be continued, > > * Henk, PA8PDP > > > From ed at groenenberg.net Fri Dec 16 14:42:23 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 21:42:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: References: <000001d257d0$61f20230$25d60690$@classiccmp.org> <3078cee5-1cd2-7063-4422-8bd8ae2569a2@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <38438.10.10.10.2.1481920943.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Fri, December 16, 2016 20:30, Marc Howard wrote: > I replaced my motor caps with some that I found on Alibaba (or maybe > Aliexpress) a couple of years ago. They are the right diameter and height > and have wire leads instead of lugs. They're also made with yummy > vegatable > oil and seem to work just fine (no big loud bangs yet). > > Marc > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:15 AM, jos wrote: > >> >> Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to get >> a >>> group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... >>> >> >> Count me in.... >> >> Jos >> > Ah, these white ones. Got 4 of them for my TU-56. Pretty cheap, I believe I paid about 4 USD/each including free shipping, got them off ebay. 'vegetable oil' indeed...... Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 03:10:08 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 04:10:08 -0500 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <138b01d25845$5d2e5170$178af450$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 3:03 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Rack-mounting a TU56 Van: Ethan Dicks Verzonden: vrijdag 16 december 2016 20:43 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Rack-mounting a TU56 On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Jay West wrote: > Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to get a group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... I need a few. -ethan ----- I have one TU56. There will come a day that I am up to connect it ? Until then I don?t know in what shape the run caps are, so I probably do wise to join in this group buy opportunity ? depending the cost ? * Henk, PA8PDP ----- Same situation and perspective as Henk, here. I guess that means that you can mark us both as "tentative" :->. paul From lars at nocrew.org Sat Dec 17 06:44:02 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 13:44:02 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161216163417.113C618C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's message of "Fri, 16 Dec 2016 11:34:17 -0500 (EST)") References: <20161216163417.113C618C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86oa0a20a5.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > > I wonder how the AI PDP-6 was used back in the day. I suppose > > ITS development moved to the KA10 using the virtual memory > > pager, leaving the 6 behind. But it was still attached as a > > slave CPU, right? > > Yes. There is a document, "February 1972 ITS Status Report", AIM-238, > which is from a point in time when both CPUs were in operation as a > dual-CPU system, with paging on the KA10, and it contains a > considerable amount of technical detail. Thank you! Reading that, and the system documentation, makes it quite clear. > The earlier "ITS 1.5 Status Manual" might also be interesting; it > covers a point in time when I think they only had a PDP-6. It mentions the sparkling new PDP-10, but it seems the PDP-6 was the primary CPU at the time. > I'd be interested to hear anything about the DM PDP-6 which you find > out. Most of my notes end up in GitHub, but I'll try to keep you in the loop. Early Project MAC Progress Reports mention both the AI and the DM system as PDP-6/10 machines. I suppose it's likely they both used the same master/slave configuration. However, there's one thing I found that may indicate that the DM machine went in an other direction. Alan Bawdens wrote a draft paper about ITS (maybe what later become the PCLSRing paper) that says: > Sequence of machines: > AI pdp6 > DM pdp6 > AI ka10 (first as attached processor; role switch) > DM ka10 (pdp6 flushed) > ML ka10 (first non-special-I/O-oriented system) > MX kl10 (expand ML group to high performance) > AI ks10 (begin renaissance) This describes the progression of machines used in ITS development. Of interest here is the "pdp6 flushed" note. The obvious interpretation is that the DM group stopped using the PDP-6 when they got their KA10. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 17 07:14:22 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 08:14:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161217131422.E43F818C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I suppose it's likely they both used the same master/slave > configuration. However, there's one thing I found that may indicate > that the DM machine went in an other direction. I think the latter may be true, I have this vague sense that the two DM machines were never interonnected the way the AI pair were. For one, the DM people didn't have a bunch of oddball hardware connected to their main machine, the way the AI people did. (There was a special Evans+ Sutherland display processor, but that's about it. The ITS sources will probably have a complete list, until the DM configuration section.) They also didn't have as deep a bench of hardware people. Also, I remember reading somewhere (it was decades ago, sorry, don't remember the source) that AI's paging box was subtly different from the one on DM; the AI one could IIRC, address 4 'moby's (a full PDP-10 address spare), and two (I think? I'm pretty sure all the KA's had two moby's of main memory) were used for the Fabritek 2-moby memory, one was for the PDP-6 (so the KA could see into it) and one was for the PDP-11's. (AI had a number of PDP-11's attached to it - one to drive the Xerox Graphic Printer, one to drive the Knight TV system, and I think maybe one more, the so-called I/O -11 - or was that on MC, which had two -11's - the standard KL front console -11, and I think one more? I'm can't quite remember, although I'm pretty sure neither DM or ML had any -11's. Anyway, on AI, the KA could see into the memory of its PDP-11's. If you look at the ITS sources this probably is all laid out there.) So probably the DM -6 and -10 were two separate machines. > MX kl10 (expand ML group to high performance) Actually, this machine was named MC when it first arrived, and kept that name until its 'replacement', a KS, arrived, _many_ years later. (They didn't want to give the new machine a new name, since there were a ton of mailing lists on 'MC', and it was easier to swap the machine names.) It was renamed 'MX' at that point. It was called 'MC' since it was bought for the Macsyma Consortium (part of LCS, not sure if it was part of the ML group, it might have been). Noel From dab at froghouse.org Sat Dec 17 07:37:43 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 08:37:43 -0500 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161217131422.E43F818C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161217131422.E43F818C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6d22b145-0f6e-4a44-23ca-47941baab0e2@froghouse.org> On 12/17/2016 08:14 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I'm can't quite remember, although I'm pretty sure neither DM or ML had any > -11's. I thought I'd heard that the 10s were connected to the Chaosnet through 11s running MINITS. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 17 08:02:44 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 14:02:44 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 16/12/2016 18:25, "Tony Duell" wrote: > On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 6:19 PM, Peter Coghlan > wrote: >>> >>> They aren't 'standard' 14-pin DIPs in that they don't follow the >>> GND-on-pin-7-Vcc-on-pin-14 layout. Pins 6 and 7 on both are wired together >>> (not to GND) and form the RESET signal for the 8085 via the 7414 at 10A, >>> source for this signal is unknown currently. Pin 5 on both appears to be Vcc >>> and pin 10 is GND or at least are pulled high and low respectively. >>> >> >> Could they be 74(LS)90? Those have Vcc on pin 5 and GND on pin 10. > > And IIRC pins 6 and 7 are reset _inputs_ on the 74x90 (I don't have the > pinouts to hand, what about the 74x92 or more likely 74x93?). But active > high, not active low. So it's possible the reset signal comes from elsewhere, > resets these counters (as some kind of clock divider chain) and is inverted > by that '14 to feed the 8085 reset input. > > I doubt it's a uA733. I can think of no logical reason to have one of those > in this sort of circuit. Thanks all, the pinouts are matching the LS9x counters so I just need to trace more lines to hopefully narrow it down. Pins 6 and 7 are definitely inputs so you're right Tony, the reset must come from elsewhere. One of the outputs is confusing though since it appears to come FROM 5V via a resistor, I can't see anything in the datasheets that hints it may also be used as an input or that pulling it high affects behaviour. Maybe I mistraced in tiredness the other night. Back to the DMM then! Cheers folks :D -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 08:28:05 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 14:28:05 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > > Thanks all, the pinouts are matching the LS9x counters so I just need to > trace more lines to hopefully narrow it down. Pins 6 and 7 are definitely > inputs so you're right Tony, the reset must come from elsewhere. One of the > outputs is confusing though since it appears to come FROM 5V via a resistor, What value resistor? It is possible that whatever it is driving needs a swing to +5V, rather than just a TTL high level. Adding a pull-up resistor is a way to kludge this. The 7490 has 2 sets of reset inputs (4 pins total), one pair to reset it to 0, the other pair to reset it to 9. Since these inputs are active high, they can't be left floating, they must be conneccted to something (even if directly to ground). So you could see if those pins go anywhwere, if not, then you can eliminate the 7490 -tony > > Back to the DMM then! Given that these counters seem to be reset by the same signal that resets the 8085, and that I assume the 8085 is not reset very often, the counters will presumably count continuously. If you have a 'scope, look at the input signals to the 2 sections of the counter. If you see nice regular square waves there, then look at the outputs and see if the frequencies fit the right division ratios for one of the 749x devices. The ideal tool for this is a LogicDart which will display the waveform and tell you the frequency (and will drop in your toolbox), but those are not that easy to get now. -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 17 09:06:49 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 10:06:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161217150649.806AB18C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I remember reading somewhere (it was decades ago, sorry, don't remember > the source) that AI's paging box was subtly different from the one on > DM; the AI one could IIRC, address 4 'moby's (a full PDP-10 address > spare), and two (I think? I'm pretty sure all the KA's had two moby's > of main memory) were used for the Fabritek 2-moby memory, one was for > the PDP-6 (so the KA could see into it) and one was for the PDP-11's. I wasn't able to track down the source of that, but reading ITS sources did confirm (see SYSTEM;CONFIF >) that the AI paging box had one more bit of output address than the ones on DM and ML. And the PDP-6 memory appeared at 03000000. I now recall that later in the AI KA's life, the Fabritek ('Moby') memory got flaky, and it was replaced with a kludge (done by HIC, according to the ITS source) which used a number of LISPM memory cards. > (AI had a number of PDP-11's attached to it - one to drive the Xerox > Graphic Printer, one to drive the Knight TV system, and I think maybe > one more, the so-called I/O -11 - or was that on MC, which had two > -11's - the standard KL front console -11, and I think one more? So the I/O-11 code (see SYSTEM;IOELEV >) ran on 3 PDP-11's; two on MC (one was the front console, interfaced through a DTE20, and one an I/O processor interfaced through a DL10 - this latter one was used to hook up to the CHAOS network). The other machine running this code was the so-called "CHAOS-Ether-Gateway" machine on AI (AI had two other -11's, as above). I had this vague memory that that machine was there before it was hooked up to either the CHAOS net, or the (3 Mbit) Ethernet, and it was doign something else, previously - but maybe not - maybe it was added to give the AI KA access to the CHAOS network? > From: David Bridgham dab at froghouse.org > I thought I'd heard that the 10s were connected to the Chaosnet through > 11s running MINITS. That would have required building a 10-11 interface for them.. :-) But if you look in SYSTEM;CONFIF > you can find this: IFE MCOND MLKA,[ .. DEFOPT CH10P==1 ;CHAOS NET VIA PDP-10 I/O BUS, NOT FRONT-END and then in SYSTEM;CHAOS > SUBTTL CH-10 HARDWARE DEFINITIONS IFN CH10P,[ CHX==470 ;I/O DEVICE NUMBER ;CONI/CONO BITS So there were PDP-10 I/O bus CHAOS network interfaces. (Although I have absolutely no, zero, memory of them! :-) Noel From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Dec 17 09:06:42 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 15:06:42 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79b688ae-3db1-fdc5-5f49-f2b814251702@dunnington.plus.com> On 17/12/2016 14:28, Tony Duell wrote: > On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: >> Thanks all, the pinouts are matching the LS9x counters so I just need to >> trace more lines to hopefully narrow it down. Pins 6 and 7 are definitely >> inputs so you're right Tony, the reset must come from elsewhere. One of the >> outputs is confusing though since it appears to come FROM 5V via a resistor, > What value resistor? > > It is possible that whatever it is driving needs a swing to +5V, > rather than just > a TTL high level. Adding a pull-up resistor is a way to kludge this. The CLOCK line on a Z80 is usually arranged like this, with a 330R (or thereabouts) pullup. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 17 09:29:36 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 10:29:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: heavy stuff -- was: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? Message-ID: <20161217152936.A802518C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Disassembling the mechanics is quite another matter. The spindle and > head actuator assemblies are precision mechanisms with very tight > tolerances and alignment requirements. Oh, I wouldn't take out anything that would require precision realignment. (I would certainly carefully read the entire maintenance manual before attempting to lighten it by removing things.) But some could come out - e.g. if the spindle drive motor uses a drive belt (many do), that would therefore be safe to take out. And the power supplies - you might want them out anyway, to recondition the caps, and check them out. Etc, etc. Noel From johnl at johnlabovitz.com Sat Dec 17 10:24:52 2016 From: johnl at johnlabovitz.com (John Labovitz) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:24:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161217150649.806AB18C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161217150649.806AB18C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <02E01C3A-4D04-4546-868E-7D8DB5F72ECF@johnlabovitz.com> I have nothing particularly useful to add to the history here, but just wanted to say how much I appreciate hearing about the MIT ITS machines. Around 1982, I was a 16-year old hacker living in suburban Maryland, running a CP/M BBS. I came across a text file titled something like ?interesting phone numbers.? One of those numbers I tried dialing up to was a local DOD TAC, which then led me to connect (over NCP) to MIT-MC. Playing around at the login prompt, I got a message like ?That user doesn?t exist; would you like an account??? and of course said yes! I was HNIJ at MIT-MC, if I recall. A little later, RMS sponsored me (without ever meeting or knowing me) as rms.g.hnij at mit-ai. I also used mit-ccc, which was v6 Unix, for my first foray into both Unix and Usenet. Anyway, it?s really fun to read about these machines that I spent so much time with and learned so much from, yet were so abstract in their existence to me. ;-) ?John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 17 12:34:01 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 18:34:01 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 17/12/2016 14:28, "Tony Duell" wrote: > On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: >> > >> >> Thanks all, the pinouts are matching the LS9x counters so I just need to >> trace more lines to hopefully narrow it down. Pins 6 and 7 are definitely >> inputs so you're right Tony, the reset must come from elsewhere. One of the >> outputs is confusing though since it appears to come FROM 5V via a resistor, > > What value resistor? It's a 5-band red-red-black-black-violet so either 220R or 70k? Based on what Pete said about the Z80 I'm going for 220R without pulling it out of circuit. > It is possible that whatever it is driving needs a swing to +5V, > rather than just > a TTL high level. Adding a pull-up resistor is a way to kludge this. I thought that but it doesn't appear to go anywhere else. I'll keep looking, its only a 2 layer board so there's nothing hidden. > The 7490 has 2 sets of reset inputs (4 pins total), one pair to reset > it to 0, the > other pair to reset it to 9. Since these inputs are active high, they > can't be left > floating, they must be conneccted to something (even if directly to ground). > So > you could see if those pins go anywhwere, if not, then you can eliminate the > 7490 One problem I have is that I've already found a few chips with dead outputs so I've no idea if these will be any different. The pinouts I have match the LS92 since pins 2/3/4/13 are NC. All testing so far has been done with a DMM and cheap logic analyser. Since one of the possibly-LS92s is out of circuit I'll build a little test circuit to see if it does actually count given a clock source... Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 17 12:37:43 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 18:37:43 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: It is most likely an off brown, marking a 1% and not violet. Sometimes their paints change with age. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 10:34:01 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please On 17/12/2016 14:28, "Tony Duell" wrote: > On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: >> > >> >> Thanks all, the pinouts are matching the LS9x counters so I just need to >> trace more lines to hopefully narrow it down. Pins 6 and 7 are definitely >> inputs so you're right Tony, the reset must come from elsewhere. One of the >> outputs is confusing though since it appears to come FROM 5V via a resistor, > > What value resistor? It's a 5-band red-red-black-black-violet so either 220R or 70k? Based on what Pete said about the Z80 I'm going for 220R without pulling it out of circuit. > It is possible that whatever it is driving needs a swing to +5V, > rather than just > a TTL high level. Adding a pull-up resistor is a way to kludge this. I thought that but it doesn't appear to go anywhere else. I'll keep looking, its only a 2 layer board so there's nothing hidden. > The 7490 has 2 sets of reset inputs (4 pins total), one pair to reset > it to 0, the > other pair to reset it to 9. Since these inputs are active high, they > can't be left > floating, they must be conneccted to something (even if directly to ground). > So > you could see if those pins go anywhwere, if not, then you can eliminate the > 7490 One problem I have is that I've already found a few chips with dead outputs so I've no idea if these will be any different. The pinouts I have match the LS92 since pins 2/3/4/13 are NC. All testing so far has been done with a DMM and cheap logic analyser. Since one of the possibly-LS92s is out of circuit I'll build a little test circuit to see if it does actually count given a clock source... Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 12:46:18 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 13:46:18 -0500 Subject: Rack-mounting a TU56 (Jay West) Message-ID: > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 13:12:45 -0600 > From: "Jay West" > Subject: RE: Rack-mounting a TU56 > > Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to get a > group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... > > J > Yes please. -- Michael Thompson From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 12:49:16 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 18:49:16 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 6:34 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 17/12/2016 14:28, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >> On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Adrian Graham >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Thanks all, the pinouts are matching the LS9x counters so I just need to >>> trace more lines to hopefully narrow it down. Pins 6 and 7 are definitely >>> inputs so you're right Tony, the reset must come from elsewhere. One of the >>> outputs is confusing though since it appears to come FROM 5V via a resistor, >> >> What value resistor? > > It's a 5-band red-red-black-black-violet so either 220R or 70k? Based on > what Pete said about the Z80 I'm going for 220R without pulling it out of > circuit. > Yes. I would agree with that. >> It is possible that whatever it is driving needs a swing to +5V, >> rather than just >> a TTL high level. Adding a pull-up resistor is a way to kludge this. > > I thought that but it doesn't appear to go anywhere else. I'll keep looking, > its only a 2 layer board so there's nothing hidden. > >> The 7490 has 2 sets of reset inputs (4 pins total), one pair to reset >> it to 0, the >> other pair to reset it to 9. Since these inputs are active high, they >> can't be left >> floating, they must be conneccted to something (even if directly to ground). >> So >> you could see if those pins go anywhwere, if not, then you can eliminate the >> 7490 > > One problem I have is that I've already found a few chips with dead outputs > so I've no idea if these will be any different. The pinouts I have match the > LS92 since pins 2/3/4/13 are NC. All testing so far has been done with a DMM > and cheap logic analyser. Since one of the possibly-LS92s is out of circuit > I'll build a little test circuit to see if it does actually count given a > clock source... It's not a 7493 as the resets don't match up. I would guess at 74x92 at least for the moment. See if the rest of the circuit makes any sense. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 17 15:59:03 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 13:59:03 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <269dfc3c-7ef5-0369-1d4a-da70a4dd706d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Here's a tickler for the list... I've used bit-addressable machines, where individual bits were directly addressed without regard to their position within a byte or word. E.g., a system with 48 bit addresses, where the lower 3 bits of an address specified the bit within a byte; the next 3 specified the address of a byte within a (64 bit) word, and so on. Bit vectors were an important part of the architecture. What perplexed me is that the address of 0000 0 0 specified the first bit in byte 0 of word 0, but that same bit was the *high order* bit in the corresponding byte and word. It would seem to make more sense reversing the significance of bits in a byte and bytes in a word such that the lowest-numbered addresses corresponded to the least-significant bits in a word or byte. Call it "extreme little endianess". Does anyone know of such an architecture? --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 19:50:18 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 18:50:18 -0700 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <201612051435.uB5EZ4u97995606@floodgap.com> <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <269dfc3c-7ef5-0369-1d4a-da70a4dd706d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What perplexed me is that the address of 0000 0 0 specified the first > bit in byte 0 of word 0, but that same bit was the *high order* bit in > the corresponding byte and word. It would seem to make more sense > reversing the significance of bits in a byte and bytes in a word such > that the lowest-numbered addresses corresponded to the least-significant > bits in a word or byte. > > Call it "extreme little endianess". Does anyone know of such an > architecture? > The IBM 7030 "Stretch" was bit-addressable for integer operations, but not for floating point or instructions. It used typical IBM big-endian bit numbering, with bit 0 being the most significant bit. The TI TMS34010 and TMS34020 graphics processors were bit-addressable, though instructions had to be 16-bit aligned. The TMS34010 and the default mode of the TMS34020 were little-endian, with bit 0 being the least significant bit. The TMS34020 has configurable support for big-endian memory addressing. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 17 22:41:37 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 20:41:37 -0800 Subject: Odd "endianness" [was Re: RE: Base 64 posts to the list] In-Reply-To: References: <20161205160324.GA86776@night.db.net> <201612051651.LAA11594@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3cb5def1-3d1e-4318-3f95-8793bc017ed7@sydex.com> <114e01d24f2b$c0227f40$40677dc0$@gmail.com> <86d1h6m6aq.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <028746e8-ab73-dac6-983b-6f2c90f94af6@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE8A8F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <269dfc3c-7ef5-0369-1d4a-da70a4dd706d@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <96f356b9-df4b-9378-2f4a-f8e4a29c00e3@sydex.com> On 12/17/2016 05:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > The TI TMS34010 and TMS34020 graphics processors were > bit-addressable, though instructions had to be 16-bit aligned. The > TMS34010 and the default mode of the TMS34020 were little-endian, > with bit 0 being the least significant bit. The TMS34020 has > configurable support for big-endian memory addressing. I'd forgotten about the TIGA chips, thanks. --Chuck From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 23:14:58 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (Devin) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:14:58 -0500 Subject: IBM XT 5160 Keyboard issues Message-ID: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> I was happy to find a IBM XT for a good price at the scrapyard today in very nice condition. It is missing the hard drive, but i have plenty of those, the controller was still inside. I had a little issue getting video working at first, i do not have a 9 pin cga monitor laying around, thankfully i found a 16 bit isa card that also works in an 8 bit slot. The machine starts up and runs its memory test, however it gives a 301 error. System halts and says press f1 to continue, but no luck, keyboard is unresponsive. I have tried about 10 different keyboards on the machine, including some model M keyboards with a ps2 adapter with no luck. A quick search does turn up that 301 is a keyboard related error, but i am not sure what exactly the issue is. Am i doing something stupid here or am i looking at the possibility of something being wrong with the machine? --Devin From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 23:33:46 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 21:33:46 -0800 Subject: IBM XT 5160 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> References: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d68355e-52c7-de3e-22c6-007f2417a939@gmail.com> On 12/17/16 9:14 PM, Devin wrote: > I was happy to find a IBM XT for a good price at the scrapyard today > in very nice condition. It is missing the hard drive, but i have > plenty of those, the controller was still inside. > > I had a little issue getting video working at first, i do not have a 9 > pin cga monitor laying around, thankfully i found a 16 bit isa card > that also works in an 8 bit slot. > > The machine starts up and runs its memory test, however it gives a 301 > error. System halts and says press f1 to continue, but no luck, > keyboard is unresponsive. I have tried about 10 different keyboards on > the machine, including some model M keyboards with a ps2 adapter with > no luck. Model M keyboards are AT-style keyboards, they won't work with an XT (different protocol). You will need to find a PC/XT compatible keyboard to use. - Josh > > A quick search does turn up that 301 is a keyboard related error, but > i am not sure what exactly the issue is. > > Am i doing something stupid here or am i looking at the possibility of > something being wrong with the machine? > > --Devin > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 17 23:59:51 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 21:59:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM XT 5160 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> References: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Dec 2016, Devin wrote: > I was happy to find a IBM XT for a good price at the scrapyard today in very > nice condition. It is missing the hard drive, but i have plenty of those, the > controller was still inside. If it is the real IBM (Xebec) hard disk controller, then it is strapped for 10M. Near the center are 8 solder pads. If you want, you can solder a 4 position DIPswitch to them, or just solder jumper wires as needed. It supports two drives, two jumpers per drive. All open is 10M. (306 cylinders, 4 heads). IIRC, without modification other than those jumpers, it supports 5M, 10M, 16M, and 26M? Other configurations of drives can be accomplished by changing the ROM, or in software. > I had a little issue getting video working at first, i do not have a 9 > pin cga monitor laying around, thankfully i found a 16 bit isa card that > also works in an 8 bit slot. If it is a CGA card, then it also has an RCA jack and a 4 pin berg for composite video, along with DE9 for CGA monitor. If it is MDP, then it has DE9 for video and a DB25 for printer. Pay close attention, they do NOT have the same frequency! > The machine starts up and runs its memory test, however it gives a 301 error. > System halts and says press f1 to continue, but no luck, keyboard is > unresponsive. I have tried about 10 different keyboards on the machine, > including some model M keyboards with a ps2 adapter with no luck. XT (5160, as well as 5150) keyboards are NOT interchangeable with AT (5170) style keyboards. An AT keyboard will not work on an XT nor vice-versa. For a brief time, there existed some keyboards with an XT/AT switch on the under side. Any keyboard with a PS2 adapter would be an AT keyboard. The XT keyboards never had any connectors other than the 5 pin DIN. > Am i doing something stupid here or am i looking at the possibility of > something being wrong with the machine? You are right that a 301 error is keyboard. You need to find an PC/XT keyboard; an AT keyboard will NOT work. (Not even 10 of them :-( ) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 18 00:02:11 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 22:02:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM XT 5160 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: <9d68355e-52c7-de3e-22c6-007f2417a939@gmail.com> References: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> <9d68355e-52c7-de3e-22c6-007f2417a939@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Dec 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > Model M keyboards are AT-style keyboards, they won't work with an XT > (different protocol). You will need to find a PC/XT compatible keyboard to > use. exactly. The original IBM PC/XT keyboard is a buckling spring. So, if/when you find one, it will at least feel like a model M. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 00:45:53 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 23:45:53 -0700 Subject: IBM XT 5160 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: References: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> <9d68355e-52c7-de3e-22c6-007f2417a939@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 11:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 17 Dec 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Model M keyboards are AT-style keyboards, they won't work with an XT >> (different protocol). You will need to find a PC/XT compatible keyboard to >> use. >> > > exactly. > > The original IBM PC/XT keyboard is a buckling spring. > So, if/when you find one, it will at least feel like a model M. > IBM PC, PC/XT and original (84-key) PC/AT keyboards were Model F, which was buckling spring with capacitive sensing. IBM PC/AT enhanced (101 key) and many PS/2keyboards were Model M, which was buckling spring with membrane (electrical contact). Almost all non-IBM PC keyboards, even if they were expensive, were cheap crap. Northgate was a notable exception, though they did offer some in the "cheap crap" category also. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 00:53:02 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (Devin) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 01:53:02 -0500 Subject: IBM XT 5160 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: References: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> <9d68355e-52c7-de3e-22c6-007f2417a939@gmail.com> Message-ID: <76bbacb2-6ede-a7f5-de6b-9bf1bd415c0f@gmail.com> Alright, thanks for the info. I think I'll start off with something in the "cheap crap" category and see if i can find something better down the line. Now that i know what to look for it probably won't take long to get one that is of good quality. --Devin On 12/18/2016 1:45 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 11:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Sat, 17 Dec 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Model M keyboards are AT-style keyboards, they won't work with an XT >>> (different protocol). You will need to find a PC/XT compatible keyboard to >>> use. >>> >> exactly. >> >> The original IBM PC/XT keyboard is a buckling spring. >> So, if/when you find one, it will at least feel like a model M. >> > IBM PC, PC/XT and original (84-key) PC/AT keyboards were Model F, which was > buckling spring with capacitive sensing. > IBM PC/AT enhanced (101 key) and many PS/2keyboards were Model M, which was > buckling spring with membrane (electrical contact). > > Almost all non-IBM PC keyboards, even if they were expensive, were cheap > crap. Northgate was a notable exception, though they did offer some in the > "cheap crap" category also. > From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 01:51:03 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:51:03 -0700 Subject: IBM XT 5160 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: <76bbacb2-6ede-a7f5-de6b-9bf1bd415c0f@gmail.com> References: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> <9d68355e-52c7-de3e-22c6-007f2417a939@gmail.com> <76bbacb2-6ede-a7f5-de6b-9bf1bd415c0f@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 11:53 PM, Devin wrote: > Alright, thanks for the info. I think I'll start off with something in > the "cheap crap" category and see if i can find something better down the > line. Now that i know what to look for it probably won't take long to get > one that is of good quality. > After that AT (5170) hit the market, most of the clone keyboards that were introduced either had a switch to select between XT and AT interface, or did auto-switching. As XTs faded from common use, the clone keyboards dropped that feature. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 18 02:48:57 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:48:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM XT 5160 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: References: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> <9d68355e-52c7-de3e-22c6-007f2417a939@gmail.com> <76bbacb2-6ede-a7f5-de6b-9bf1bd415c0f@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Alright, thanks for the info. I think I'll start off with something in >> the "cheap crap" category and see if i can find something better down the >> line. Now that i know what to look for it probably won't take long to get >> one that is of good quality. On Sun, 18 Dec 2016, Eric Smith wrote: > After that AT (5170) hit the market, most of the clone keyboards that were > introduced either had a switch to select between XT and AT interface, or > did auto-switching. As XTs faded from common use, the clone keyboards > dropped that feature. Which brings up: How to tell whether a given keyboard is suitable for XT It will have a 5 pin DIN (NOT mini-DIN) connector. It will almost always be 83 key, but there were exceptions. It will almost never have lights, but there were exceptions. If it has an XT/AT switch, then it is OK! If you find an 83 key keyboard, with 5 pin DIN and no lights nor switches, then it could be XT, or it could be AT, with no external indication. Which leaves part number, or opening it to check circuitry. Should be possible to power it, and monitor the signals that it puts out? You could try to make a microprocessor based adapter, . . . 30 years ago, people were trying to make adapters to use XT keyboards on AT. Some of that information is still floating around. Once "everybody" had upgraded to AT, most XT keyboards were dumpstered. 35 years ago, you could buy a keyboard to build a PC for $300. So, maybe the eBay prices aren't so ridiculous? From spereira1952 at comcast.net Sat Dec 17 12:23:33 2016 From: spereira1952 at comcast.net (Stephen Pereira) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 13:23:33 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? Message-ID: Hello folks, I was (finally) lucky enough to acquire an Altair 680 back in November, and I have been able to get it back up and running, too. Now that I have a fully working stock Altair 680, I am interested in acquiring expansion boards for it. If anyone has any Altair 680 expansion boards, especially a memory expansion board, that they are willing to part with, please let me know. Thanks for listening. smp -- Stephen M. Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Sat Dec 17 13:03:20 2016 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 19:03:20 -0000 Subject: Rackmounting A Tu56 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d25898$3c4b0b30$b4e12190$@co.uk> > Anyway, does anyone have experience of rack-mounting a TU56? It clearly > doesn't go on slide rails, it bolts directly to the rack (hinge down > the front > panel for access). I have the manuals from Bitsavers, they imply there > is some > kind of spacer block that goes under the TU56. Does anyone know what > that > is exactly so I can attempt to make one if it is needed. > > -tony I mounted my TU56 in an H960 recently(ish). The block you mention only acts as a support while you bolt the TU56 in and isn't needed afterwards. The TU56 is too heavy to easily support with one hand while you put in a couple of bolts - the manual advises separating the front panel and reassembli8ng after mounting but that seems more bother than it's worth. I bolted a piece of scrap across the H960 to hold the TU56 up while I put the bolts in. 5-minute job. From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Sat Dec 17 13:07:46 2016 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 19:07:46 -0000 Subject: TU56 Run Capacitors (was Rack-mounting a TU56) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000101d25898$dafb9600$90f2c200$@co.uk> > Jay wrote: > Speaking of which - I'll put out a call again for if anyone wants to > get a group purchase on the motor run caps for a TU55/56.... > I'd be interested in a couple. I could only find some oversized stud-mounted ones when I refurbed my TU56 and although they're perfectly functional they don't look too good. From js at cimmeri.com Sat Dec 17 17:09:03 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 18:09:03 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5855C58F.20505@cimmeri.com> On 12/17/2016 1:23 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: > I was (finally) lucky enough to acquire an Altair 680 back in November, and I have been able to get it back up and running, too. Is there any logic to the naming of these Altairs? Wonder why it wasn't "Altair 8080" and "Altair 6800". 8800 and 680 don't follow the same pattern. - J. From u.tagge at gmx.de Sat Dec 17 20:39:12 2016 From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:39:12 +0100 Subject: heavy stuff -- was: Anyone want an RK11-C manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b8cd57a-76da-73cd-2959-97301e0f4903@gmx.de> Hi Henk, When you need to transport heavy thinks try to rent such a device. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMAIv3fRSOM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duaOQJMWDJg >> I was able to bring all my heavy stuff in the basement with them. Has cost me 60Euro for a day and it was very very easy to handle. Many Greetings Ulrich From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sun Dec 18 09:00:28 2016 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 10:00:28 -0500 Subject: IBM XT 5160 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: References: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> <9d68355e-52c7-de3e-22c6-007f2417a939@gmail.com> <76bbacb2-6ede-a7f5-de6b-9bf1bd415c0f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20161218150028.GB19309@ns1.bonedaddy.net> I have AT2XTKBD bare boards available for $5 each that were designed at vintage-computer.com forums with the help of our very own Chuck Guzis. https://retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boards:other:at2xtkbd:start Todd * Fred Cisin [161218 03:49]: > >> Alright, thanks for the info. I think I'll start off with something in > >> the "cheap crap" category and see if i can find something better down the > >> line. Now that i know what to look for it probably won't take long to get > >> one that is of good quality. > On Sun, 18 Dec 2016, Eric Smith wrote: > > After that AT (5170) hit the market, most of the clone keyboards that were > > introduced either had a switch to select between XT and AT interface, or > > did auto-switching. As XTs faded from common use, the clone keyboards > > dropped that feature. > > Which brings up: > How to tell whether a given keyboard is suitable for XT > It will have a 5 pin DIN (NOT mini-DIN) connector. > It will almost always be 83 key, but there were exceptions. > It will almost never have lights, but there were exceptions. > If it has an XT/AT switch, then it is OK! > > If you find an 83 key keyboard, with 5 pin DIN and no lights nor switches, > then it could be XT, or it could be AT, with no external indication. > Which leaves part number, or opening it to check circuitry. > Should be possible to power it, and monitor the signals that it puts out? > > > You could try to make a microprocessor based adapter, . . . > 30 years ago, people were trying to make adapters to use XT keyboards on > AT. Some of that information is still floating around. > > > Once "everybody" had upgraded to AT, most XT keyboards were dumpstered. > 35 years ago, you could buy a keyboard to build a PC for $300. > So, maybe the eBay prices aren't so ridiculous? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 18 11:07:40 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 09:07:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM XT 5160 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: <20161218150028.GB19309@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> <9d68355e-52c7-de3e-22c6-007f2417a939@gmail.com> <76bbacb2-6ede-a7f5-de6b-9bf1bd415c0f@gmail.com> <20161218150028.GB19309@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Dec 2016, Todd Goodman wrote: > I have AT2XTKBD bare boards available for $5 each that were designed at > vintage-computer.com forums with the help of our very own Chuck Guzis. > https://retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boards:other:at2xtkbd:start Wonderful! THAT is the answer, if you don't already have an 83 key F. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 16:19:47 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 16:19:47 -0600 Subject: IBM XT 5160 Keyboard issues In-Reply-To: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> References: <25b73ebc-2329-0203-d1aa-edd8fdb467a5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c63a0f4-e92c-c138-8916-3de131c53afe@gmail.com> On 12/17/2016 11:14 PM, Devin wrote: > The machine starts up and runs its memory test, however it gives a 301 > error. Anything else alongside the 301? If it's a stuck key error then I think the firmware spits out the scancode of the offending key (although maybe that was only a 5170 and later thing?). Just a 301 on its own would indicate something more fundamental. Check the keyboard cable and connector carefully - I've seen plenty of problems with DIN-type connectors on things, and I know that at least one of my XT keyboards had damage where the cable goes into the back of the keyboard. It may be worth (carefully) taking the keyboard apart to check for obvious problems inside, and to check continuity on the keyboard cable wires (I think it's a 4-wire setup - power, ground, clock and data - although it uses a 5 pin connector with one pin unused) Check for power at the keyboard socket on the motherboard (I don't have the pinouts handy, but I'm sure that google does :-) and I believe there's a PCB-mounted fuse on the system board near to the socket which is worth a look. cheers Jules From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sun Dec 18 16:41:53 2016 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 23:41:53 +0100 Subject: AW: Re: Rack-mounting a TU56 (Jay West) Message-ID: <01ed01d2597f$ee473b50$cad5b1f0$@liftoff.at> Yes please -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Sonntag, 18. Dezember 2016 19:00 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 30, Issue 18 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 18 19:09:01 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 01:09:01 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 17/12/2016 18:49, "Tony Duell" wrote: >>> What value resistor? >> >> It's a 5-band red-red-black-black-violet so either 220R or 70k? Based on >> what Pete said about the Z80 I'm going for 220R without pulling it out of >> circuit. >> > > Yes. I would agree with that. It connects to some telephone-based doohickey that can be seen as the right-most light-green module lower centre left of this pic, the one with the red capacitor in the middle of it: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/stcexecutelboard.jpg Initially I figured the board was divided half and half into phone and digital viewdata with the viewdata part on the right. Now I'm tracing more lines that blur between the pair of them right down the centre, including the source of the 8085's RESET which would seem to be the circuitry in the top-middle of that pic where you can see the battery (now removed). The chip directly below the battery is the RTC, to its left is an MC14081 (quad input AND) and left again is an ICL7611 op-amp. Those 3 have their own 5V supply that's separate from the rest of the board, yay. Not found the source of that yet. >> LS92 since pins 2/3/4/13 are NC. All testing so far has been done with a DMM >> and cheap logic analyser. Since one of the possibly-LS92s is out of circuit >> I'll build a little test circuit to see if it does actually count given a >> clock source... > > > It's not a 7493 as the resets don't match up. I would guess at 74x92 at least > for the moment. See if the rest of the circuit makes any sense. I'm 99% sure they're 7492s now, outputs and inputs match other surrounding chips. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Dec 19 13:31:03 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 11:31:03 -0800 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card Message-ID: <491DA2DD-FDC3-4868-B76B-7EB15D02A65B@nf6x.net> After playing with my Apple IIe all weekend, my new obsession du jour is to network it with my vintage Macintoshes. So, does anybody have an Apple II Workstation Card available for sale or trade? Act now, before I get distracted by another shiny object! :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Dec 19 13:34:08 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 14:34:08 -0500 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card Message-ID: <8c9324.4168137c.45899030@aol.com> too bad someone has not made a new modern network card to put old Apple II on a current network...or have they? Ed# In a message dated 12/19/2016 12:31:15 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, nf6x at nf6x.net writes: After playing with my Apple IIe all weekend, my new obsession du jour is to network it with my vintage Macintoshes. So, does anybody have an Apple II Workstation Card available for sale or trade? Act now, before I get distracted by another shiny object! :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ethan at 757.org Mon Dec 19 13:35:49 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 14:35:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card In-Reply-To: <8c9324.4168137c.45899030@aol.com> References: <8c9324.4168137c.45899030@aol.com> Message-ID: > too bad someone has not made a new modern network card to put old Apple > II on a current network...or have they? > Ed# I think IIGS supported tcp/ip sort of? Also this: http://a2retrosystems.com/products.htm -- Ethan O'Toole From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Dec 19 10:39:36 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 11:39:36 -0500 Subject: VCF East keynotes: Enigma, Stroustrup (C++), 40 yrs of appliance computers Message-ID: C++ inventor Bjarne Stroustrup, Ph.D., Enigma machine expert Tom Perera, Ph.D., and a panel discussion by computer historian Bill Degnan on the 40th anniversary of appliance computers featuring the Apple II, Commodore PET 2001, and TRS-80 Model 1 will be the keynote sessions for Vintage Computer Festival East XII, March 31-April 2, in Wall, New Jersey. The event is produced by Vintage Computer Federation (www.vcfed.org), a national user group devoted to enabling hobbyists and spreading awareness of computer history. The Federation is a 501(c)3 non-profit. Stroustrup (www.stroustrup.com), who developed the C++ programming language at Bell Labs starting in 1978, will discuss "The Origins and further Evolution of C++" on Saturday morning, April 1. He is currently a visiting professor of computer science at Columbia University and a managing director in the technology division at Morgan Stanley. His talk is sure to be an excellent follow-up to C language author and pioneer Brian Kernighan, who spoke at VCF East X in 2015. Perera's company, EnigmaMuseum.com, is in the business of hunting for, researching, restoring, and selling Enigma machines and related items. His talk, "Inside the Enigma: The history, technology and deciphering of an early laptop computer and the real story of the Imitation Game" will be presented Friday, March 31 after lunch. The World War II German Enigma was arguably an original form of laptop computer. This talk will explain the history and technology of the Enigma and link it to the movie "Imitation Game" which tells the story of the cracking of the German Navy Enigma code and the extraordinary contributions of mathematician Alan Turing to this endeavor. In order to keep the audience interested and involved, the movie has allowed some inaccuracies and omissions in the history and technology and in the masterful portrayal of the eccentric mathematician Alan Turing by Benedict Cumberbatch. This talk will trace the actual story of the Enigma and the cracking of the Enigma Code and attempt to fill in some of the Enigmatic aspects of Alan Turing's personality. Perera will also give a more technical demonstration of how the machines work and a real-time disassembly of an Enigma in a separate session that day. He will give further demonstrations and will offer for sale his Enigmas, Enigma simulators, other historic cipher machines, books, Enigma Library CD-ROM, and related items on Saturday and Sunday. Perera was formerly a professor of neuroscience at Columbia University, Barnard College, and Montclair State University. Degnan (www.vintagecomputer.net) is a co-founder of the Mid-Atlantic chapter of Vintage Computer Federation, a professional programmer and web developer, and formerly taught computer history at the University of Delaware. At his panel, "1977: The year of the appliance computer" you'll learn about the launch of the Apple II, Commodore PET 2001, and Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 1. Bill will guide the discussion to explore how the appliance computer facilitated the expansion of computers as an appliance into small businesses, schools, and the home. Panelists will be separated into three groups each representing the Apple, Commodore, and Tandy/Radio Shack perspective. The panel will respond to questions and share their knowledge and personal experiences. The discussion will continue from 1977 through the milestones of 1980s 8-bit appliance and home computing. All three sessions will be 90 minutes which includes audience Q&A. Further details will be shared as the event nears. From lists+cctalk at loomcom.com Mon Dec 19 11:54:07 2016 From: lists+cctalk at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 11:54:07 -0600 Subject: Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 PDF? Message-ID: <20161219175407.GA27901@loomcom.com> I'm looking for a PDF of "Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming" by Ralph E. Gorin. It used to be hosted on PDPPlanet (xkleten.paulallen.com), but that's been down for a while. Does anyone else have a copy they could send me? Best Wishes, -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Dec 19 13:47:58 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 11:47:58 -0800 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card In-Reply-To: <8c9324.4168137c.45899030@aol.com> References: <8c9324.4168137c.45899030@aol.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 19, 2016, at 11:34 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > too bad someone has not made a new modern network card to put old Apple II on a current network...or have they? There are the Uthernet boards: http://a2retrosystems.com Looks like the Uthernet II is not in stock right now. I might get on the waiting list for the text run, so I can play with one. But I'm still interested in playing with the vintage AppleTalk stuff, anyway. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Dec 19 14:21:52 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 15:21:52 -0500 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card Message-ID: <8d3e8b.7bf90fc9.45899b5f@aol.com> Amazing! thanks Mark! Hope they are back in production soon. Great to be able to have the II hooked to the Internet! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 12/19/2016 12:48:07 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, nf6x at nf6x.net writes: > On Dec 19, 2016, at 11:34 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > too bad someone has not made a new modern network card to put old Apple II on a current network...or have they? There are the Uthernet boards: http://a2retrosystems.com Looks like the Uthernet II is not in stock right now. I might get on the waiting list for the text run, so I can play with one. But I'm still interested in playing with the vintage AppleTalk stuff, anyway. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Dec 19 14:34:34 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 17:34:34 -0300 Subject: Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 PDF? In-Reply-To: <20161219175407.GA27901@loomcom.com> References: <20161219175407.GA27901@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <66beac25-33e2-9240-e677-7888710aaa27@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-12-19 2:54 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly > Language Programming This one? https://archive.org/details/introductiontode00step --Toby From shatle at nfldinet.com Mon Dec 19 14:09:27 2016 From: shatle at nfldinet.com (Steve Hatle) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 13:09:27 -0700 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card Message-ID: <20161219130927.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.5532678ffd.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card From: "Mark J. Blair" Date: Mon, December 19, 2016 1:31 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" After playing with my Apple IIe all weekend, my new obsession du jour is to network it with my vintage Macintoshes. So, does anybody have an Apple II Workstation Card available for sale or trade? Act now, before I get distracted by another shiny object! :) -- If by chance, more than one pops up, I'd be interested as well. I'm aware of the Uthernet card, etc. but I'm looking for the "original" Apple card that provided Localtalk networking to the IIe. TIA, Steve From lists+cctalk at loomcom.com Mon Dec 19 14:45:03 2016 From: lists+cctalk at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 14:45:03 -0600 Subject: Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 PDF? In-Reply-To: <66beac25-33e2-9240-e677-7888710aaa27@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20161219175407.GA27901@loomcom.com> <66beac25-33e2-9240-e677-7888710aaa27@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20161219204503.GA1958@loomcom.com> * On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 05:34:34PM -0300, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-12-19 2:54 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > >Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly > >Language Programming > > > This one? > https://archive.org/details/introductiontode00step Despite the almost identical name, I'm looking for a different book. The one on Archive.org is by Stephen Longo, but the one I'm looking for is written by Ralph E. Gorin, and is from Digital Press. > --Toby -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Dec 19 18:01:45 2016 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (Steven Stengel) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 16:01:45 -0800 Subject: Late 90s Macintosh systems available to So Cal Message-ID: <43873CEF-3E5C-4D57-9F89-DC0BA2F9B7DF@yahoo.com> I have a small pile of late 90s Macintosh systems available for someone to pick-up in 92656. Performa 6400/100 tower Some PowerBooks - 3400, 5300, 7630 Also boxes of cables and software. LaserWriter 4/600P Makes a great Christmas present! Thanks- Steve. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 19 18:57:47 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 16:57:47 -0800 Subject: Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 PDF? In-Reply-To: <20161219204503.GA1958@loomcom.com> References: <20161219175407.GA27901@loomcom.com> <66beac25-33e2-9240-e677-7888710aaa27@telegraphics.com.au> <20161219204503.GA1958@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On 12/19/2016 12:45 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Ralph E. Gorin Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming Print on demand version here: https://www.amazon.com/Ralph-E.-Gorin/e/B001KCRO7O From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 20:43:46 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 20:43:46 -0600 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card In-Reply-To: <20161219130927.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.5532678ffd.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> References: <20161219130927.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.5532678ffd.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Could you post (or just link to) a pic of the card in question? I had a sack of like 20 of these Apple II cards that looked like network stuff, and they may still be around.. On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Steve Hatle wrote: > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card > From: "Mark J. Blair" > Date: Mon, December 19, 2016 1:31 pm > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > After playing with my Apple IIe all weekend, my new obsession du jour is > to network it with my vintage Macintoshes. So, does anybody have an > Apple II Workstation Card available for sale or trade? Act now, before I > get distracted by another shiny object! :) > > -- > > If by chance, more than one pops up, I'd be interested as well. > > I'm aware of the Uthernet card, etc. but I'm looking for the "original" > Apple card that provided Localtalk networking to the IIe. > > TIA, > > Steve > From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Dec 19 21:10:06 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 19:10:06 -0800 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card In-Reply-To: References: <20161219130927.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.5532678ffd.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 19, 2016, at 18:43, drlegendre . wrote: > > Could you post (or just link to) a pic of the card in question? http://www.downloads.reactivemicro.com/Public/Apple%20II%20Items/Hardware/Apple_II_Workstation_Card/Pics/Apple%20II%20Workstation%20Card%20-%20Front.jpg The plastic connector block mounts on the back of the IIe case through one of the DB25 cutouts. -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 23:55:57 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 23:55:57 -0600 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card In-Reply-To: References: <20161219130927.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.5532678ffd.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Nope, wrong stuff. The cards I have/had used a pair of DB-9 connectors on the rear panel - IIRC.. I was told they were for "localtalk" but I know virtually nothing about Apple II-era hardware. Good luck!! On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 9:10 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 18:43, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > Could you post (or just link to) a pic of the card in question? > > http://www.downloads.reactivemicro.com/Public/Apple%20II%20Items/Hardware/ > Apple_II_Workstation_Card/Pics/Apple%20II%20Workstation% > 20Card%20-%20Front.jpg > > The plastic connector block mounts on the back of the IIe case through one > of the DB25 cutouts. > > -- > Mark J. Blair > http://www.nf6x.net > From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Dec 20 00:16:51 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 22:16:51 -0800 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card In-Reply-To: References: <20161219130927.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.5532678ffd.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <3B02116B-B13E-483A-BCBB-B1805B2173DF@nf6x.net> > On Dec 19, 2016, at 9:55 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Nope, wrong stuff. The cards I have/had used a pair of DB-9 connectors on > the rear panel - IIRC.. > > I was told they were for "localtalk" but I know virtually nothing about > Apple II-era hardware. The boards you describe sound like they might be the older Apple II AppleTalk II boards, as pictured here: http://www.applefritter.com/content/can-anyone-tell-me-history-apple-ii-appletalk-ii-interface-card-a2b2080-i-have-photos-attach I don't understand yet how the functionality of the AppleTalk II vs. Workstation Card products differ. I would blindly speculate that the AppleTalk II cards might have used the same AppleTalk connector box dongle that the earliest Macintosh computers used? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 01:52:50 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 01:52:50 -0600 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card In-Reply-To: <3B02116B-B13E-483A-BCBB-B1805B2173DF@nf6x.net> References: <20161219130927.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.5532678ffd.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> <3B02116B-B13E-483A-BCBB-B1805B2173DF@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Mark, Best as I can tell, the card(s) I have/had around here aren't either of the type you've indicated. At the time, I wasn't able to ID them either.. and in one of those "moments", I think I shite-canned the lot of them - only keeping one as an example. Please forgive me, Apple friends.. =) On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 12:16 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 9:55 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > Nope, wrong stuff. The cards I have/had used a pair of DB-9 connectors on > > the rear panel - IIRC.. > > > > I was told they were for "localtalk" but I know virtually nothing about > > Apple II-era hardware. > > The boards you describe sound like they might be the older Apple II > AppleTalk II boards, as pictured here: > > http://www.applefritter.com/content/can-anyone-tell-me- > history-apple-ii-appletalk-ii-interface-card-a2b2080-i-have-photos-attach > > I don't understand yet how the functionality of the AppleTalk II vs. > Workstation Card products differ. I would blindly speculate that the > AppleTalk II cards might have used the same AppleTalk connector box dongle > that the earliest Macintosh computers used? > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Dec 20 08:59:49 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 14:59:49 +0000 Subject: Late 90s Macintosh systems available to So Cal In-Reply-To: <43873CEF-3E5C-4D57-9F89-DC0BA2F9B7DF@yahoo.com> References: <43873CEF-3E5C-4D57-9F89-DC0BA2F9B7DF@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Steve, which model 3400?s, and would you be willing to ship? (I?m in Colorado right now and will be back home in Texas in January). - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell On Dec 19, 2016, at 6:01 PM, Steven Stengel wrote: > I have a small pile of late 90s Macintosh systems available for someone to pick-up in 92656. > > Performa 6400/100 tower > > Some PowerBooks - 3400, 5300, 7630 > > Also boxes of cables and software. > > LaserWriter 4/600P > > Makes a great Christmas present! > > Thanks- > Steve. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 12:56:47 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 13:56:47 -0500 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card In-Reply-To: References: <20161219130927.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.5532678ffd.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 10:10 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > http://www.downloads.reactivemicro.com/Public/Apple%20II%20Items/Hardware/Apple_II_Workstation_Card/Pics/Apple%20II%20Workstation%20Card%20-%20Front.jpg Looks like one just sold a week ago for $99... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-IIe-Workstation-Card-Model-Part-Numbers-820-0204-A-670-0204-A-/222346169582 Maybe for that kind of money one will shake loose? -ethan From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Dec 20 14:20:32 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 12:20:32 -0800 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card In-Reply-To: References: <20161219130927.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.5532678ffd.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <51A0F938-B7D9-4E48-94DC-4E6AAEB4B5F8@nf6x.net> > On Dec 20, 2016, at 10:56, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Looks like one just sold a week ago for $99... > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-IIe-Workstation-Card-Model-Part-Numbers-820-0204-A-670-0204-A-/222346169582 > > Maybe for that kind of money one will shake loose? > I'd pay $99 for one, but it would have to through a different channel than eBay. -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net From w9gb at icloud.com Tue Dec 20 12:48:15 2016 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 12:48:15 -0600 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card Message-ID: <41783FC2-12C1-4381-B287-031467C0D1C0@icloud.com> Mark - I worked for an Apple / IBM / network dealer, during graduate school (1983-1985). The Corvus OmniNet solution was actually more popular for the Apple II -- especially with elementary schools (which was over 50% of store's Apple business). Apple, as you noted, had multiple network solutions (LocalTalk, AppleTalk in 1985) during the 1980s and Macintosh introduction (1984). LocalTalk https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LocalTalk AppleTalk https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk --- In many ways, Steve Jobs "missed" the significance of networking for Macintosh launch (as did Microsoft with DOS) in this period ... even though he saw Xerox implementation, that eventually became 3Com. greg w9gb === > After playing with my Apple IIe all weekend, my new obsession du jour is to network it > with my vintage Macintoshes. So, does anybody have an Apple II Workstation Card > available for sale or trade? Act now, before I get distracted by another shiny object! :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ Sent from iPad Air From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 20 18:50:25 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 00:50:25 +0000 Subject: Motorola MC14081B Message-ID: Evening folks, (it's evening here) Typically for troubleshooting around $FESTIVAL I find a more-than-likely dead MC14081B (CMOS quad dual-input AND gates) just as UK postage ends for the next few days so getting a replacement won't happen until next week. Question is, aside from having to make up an adapter board to change the pins around and making sure Vcc is +5V is there any reason I can't use something like a 74LS08 for testing? One of the outputs is RESET for an 8085A so nothing too demanding. (I might have a CD4081B somewhere too, which is pin compatible according to the datasheet) Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 18:58:35 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 20:58:35 -0400 Subject: Motorola MC14081B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d4c99dd-fb32-6434-d73b-c885dffebe5a@gmail.com> On 2016-12-20 8:50 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Evening folks, > > (it's evening here) > > Typically for troubleshooting around $FESTIVAL I find a more-than-likely > dead MC14081B (CMOS quad dual-input AND gates) just as UK postage ends for > the next few days so getting a replacement won't happen until next week. > > Question is, aside from having to make up an adapter board to change the > pins around and making sure Vcc is +5V is there any reason I can't use > something like a 74LS08 for testing? One of the outputs is RESET for an > 8085A so nothing too demanding. If one of the other outputs is driving a CMOS device the output may not go high enough to satisfy it, however I would expect the reset input on the 8085A to be TTL compatible. > > (I might have a CD4081B somewhere too, which is pin compatible according to > the datasheet) Same component Motorola prefixed their 4000 series CMOS numbers with a 1 to be different. > > Cheers, > Paul. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 19:10:31 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:10:31 -0700 Subject: Motorola MC14081B In-Reply-To: <8d4c99dd-fb32-6434-d73b-c885dffebe5a@gmail.com> References: <8d4c99dd-fb32-6434-d73b-c885dffebe5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > (I might have a CD4081B somewhere too, which is pin compatible according to > >> the datasheet) >> > Same component Motorola prefixed their 4000 series CMOS numbers with a 1 > to be different. > To be fair, it wasn't just to be different. Motorola already had a well-established 4000 bipolar family at the time RCA introduced 4000 series CMOS, so it would have cause even MORE confusion if Motorola had used the RCA 4000 part numbers without any change. Some of the Motorola 4000 family were still made until fairly recently, like the MC4044. From shatle at nfldinet.com Tue Dec 20 15:26:26 2016 From: shatle at nfldinet.com (Steve Hatle) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 14:26:26 -0700 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card Message-ID: <20161220142626.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.ce6d3f85b9.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card From: "Mark J. Blair" Date: Tue, December 20, 2016 2:20 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > On Dec 20, 2016, at 10:56, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Looks like one just sold a week ago for $99... > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-IIe-Workstation-Card-Model-Part-Numbers-820-0204-A-670-0204-A-/222346169582 > > Maybe for that kind of money one will shake loose? > I'd pay $99 for one, but it would have to through a different channel than eBay. -- That's more than I'd _like_ to pay, but I don't have a lot of data to compare it with... Steve From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Dec 20 16:13:14 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 14:13:14 -0800 Subject: WTB: Apple II Workstation Card In-Reply-To: <20161220142626.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.ce6d3f85b9.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> References: <20161220142626.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.ce6d3f85b9.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <331F0018-7A36-48AC-9A25-35890F1FD667@nf6x.net> > On Dec 20, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Steve Hatle wrote: > > That's more than I'd _like_ to pay, but I don't have a lot of data to > compare it with... Oh, I'd much rather pay $10 than $100, but I think the latter is more realistic. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Dec 20 21:23:45 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 22:23:45 -0500 Subject: Motorola MC14081B In-Reply-To: <8d4c99dd-fb32-6434-d73b-c885dffebe5a@gmail.com> References: <8d4c99dd-fb32-6434-d73b-c885dffebe5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3ba057b0-d3a0-ad03-782e-110ed333d574@verizon.net> On 12/20/2016 07:58 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2016-12-20 8:50 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Evening folks, >> >> (it's evening here) >> >> Typically for troubleshooting around $FESTIVAL I find a more-than-likely >> dead MC14081B (CMOS quad dual-input AND gates) just as UK postage >> ends for >> the next few days so getting a replacement won't happen until next week. >> >> Question is, aside from having to make up an adapter board to change the >> pins around and making sure Vcc is +5V is there any reason I can't use >> something like a 74LS08 for testing? One of the outputs is RESET for an >> 8085A so nothing too demanding. > If one of the other outputs is driving a CMOS device the output may > not go high enough to satisfy it, however I would expect the reset > input on the 8085A to be TTL compatible. The 8085 reset input is not TTL, its schmidt trigger, and the level is at the upper level for TTL. If you use a 1K pullup then TTL, or open collector parts can be used as well as CMOS. The 8085 was designed to have simple reset for cost sensitive aps where the circuit was usually 22K pullup and 1uf to ground. If you using anything a 74HCxx would easily satisfy the drive and loading. > >> >> (I might have a CD4081B somewhere too, which is pin compatible >> according to >> the datasheet) > Same component Motorola prefixed their 4000 series CMOS numbers with a > 1 to be different. Critical as Moto had ECL and MECL parts with 4xxx numbers along with parts for communications and peripherals (Phase detector, VCOs, Counters). Motorola was always MC prefix where RCA was CD4xxx That helped keep the whos what straight. I know this as I did a lot of PLL work using the moto parts mixed with RCA CD parts for power savings. Also the 8085 in many aps. Allison >> >> Cheers, >> > Paul. > > From lars at nocrew.org Wed Dec 21 03:04:57 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 10:04:57 +0100 Subject: MINITS (was: PDP-6s at MIT) In-Reply-To: <6d22b145-0f6e-4a44-23ca-47941baab0e2@froghouse.org> (David Bridgham's message of "Sat, 17 Dec 2016 08:37:43 -0500") References: <20161217131422.E43F818C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6d22b145-0f6e-4a44-23ca-47941baab0e2@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <864m1xwt3a.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> David Bridgham wrote: > I thought I'd heard that the 10s were connected to the Chaosnet through > 11s running MINITS. It's rare to see references to MINITS, but it's not completely unknown to the internet. The MINITS source code is here: http://github.com/PDP-10/minits I found en even more obscure PDP-11 operating system from MIT: "TRANTOR - A PDP11 Multi-user Operating System This is the Trantor Operating System, written for the M.I.T. Applied Mathematics Department by Eugene Ciccarelli, Earl Killian, and Charles Frankston. Maintained currently by Richard Lawhorn." From lars at nocrew.org Wed Dec 21 03:14:35 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 10:14:35 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <86a8bx3ur4.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff's message of "Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:35:59 +0100") References: <20161215142402.1A34118C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <86a8bx3ur4.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <86wpetve2s.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Noel Chiappa wrote: >> I don't know about the software run on the two PDP-6's - by the time >> I arrived at MIT, they were both powered off and never, as far as I >> know, ever ran again. I would _assume_ that it ran ITS. > Pure speculation, but I suppose that since the DynaMod group got their > 10 shortly after the 6, they may have focused on getting the 10 up and > running. Maybe they didn't bother to make the 6 run in timesharing mode. I found this text: Full ITS first ran on the AI PDP6, and was ported to the DM PDP6. Later, PDP10s became available, and the labs acquired some of the earliest ones -- the AI-KA10 (AI Lab's machine), the ML KA-10 (used by the MathLab, Theory of Computation, Automatic Programming, and certain other LCS gruops), and the DMS KA-10 (Dynamic Modeling systems, also used by certain other LCS groups); these replaced the PDP-6s, which were slowly phased out. So it seems the DM PDP-6 indeed ran ITS, at least for a while. From salgernon at me.com Wed Dec 21 06:58:16 2016 From: salgernon at me.com (Steve Algernon) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 04:58:16 -0800 Subject: Felton, CA: Free kit - compact macs, //e, //c, etc Message-ID: <51F3AE49-1C7B-46F4-B446-1709B35EC5CE@me.com> So, I need to debulk my collection. A few years ago I took about 1/3 this much to the Foothill (now DeAnza, I guess) fleamarket and came away with $2k, which almost covered the cost of the storage locker it had been in! What you do with it would be up to you. I've got about 15? 2x2x3 ish plastic totes full of cables, floppies, development tools (pascal, tmon) and there's an apple //e, several //c, se/30, classic, hard drives. LocalTalk connectors. All fairly clean and non-smoking. I think there's a mac rom emulator, an Apple // CFFA card, probably a puppy or two. Must take it all! It's probably two pickups worth or one uhaul. My place is in downtown Felton, should be easy to park and load up although I'm physically limited in what I can do to help. Shipping is not an option unless you arrange a crating / hauling company. Please reply off list for best results. Cheers, --sma From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Dec 21 08:30:51 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 09:30:51 -0500 Subject: Bounty: Motorola Tango Message-ID: Anyone have a Motorola Tango? It's a two-way pager from 1995. If you have one, then contact me privately. Can't discuss this on the list. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 21 13:37:45 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:37:45 -0800 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0EDA1D20-52A8-4D8B-98DA-CC0E2C787989@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Dec-16, at 5:43 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > viewdata side of things is powered by a Plessey MR9735-002 teletext > processor supported by a pair of 2112 RAM chips and an SAA5070 "LUCY". > > http://txlib.mb21.co.uk/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2034 On 2016-Dec-17, at 10:34 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > One problem I have is that I've already found a few chips with dead outputs > so I've no idea if these will be any different. The pinouts I have match the > LS92 since pins 2/3/4/13 are NC. All testing so far has been done with a DMM > and cheap logic analyser. Since one of the possibly-LS92s is out of circuit > I'll build a little test circuit to see if it does actually count given a > clock source... The counters may be the beginning of a video timing divider chain or a clock divider for the LUCY chip. (e.g. a diagram in the document you mentioned shows a div-6 between a 6MHz crystal osc and the LUCY chip. The division factor may vary of course in the executel depending on the crystal.) Also to keep in mind as you trace it out, 749x counters were often used with gates between the outputs and reset inputs to change the count modulus / division factor. On 2016-Dec-17, at 10:34 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > It's a 5-band red-red-black-black-violet so either 220R or 70k? Based on > what Pete said about the Z80 I'm going for 220R without pulling it out of > circuit. Looking at the photo in your earlier message http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/stcexecuteltimingcircuits.jpg the wide red band on the resistors would be a 2% tolerance indicator. As with Dwight's suggestion about colour confusion, if the resistors in question are those to the left of the two unmarked chips (or similar), they look like brown-black-black-red-wideRed, which would be standard 10K / 2%. You can try measuring resistors in circuits like this with a DMM. Switch the DMM leads to get both polarities through the resistor. It's not guaranteed as it depends on the connected circuitry and the R value, but one of the readings will often be your R value, or may confirm or give direction as to the value. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 13:44:16 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 19:44:16 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: <0EDA1D20-52A8-4D8B-98DA-CC0E2C787989@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0EDA1D20-52A8-4D8B-98DA-CC0E2C787989@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:37 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > The counters may be the beginning of a video timing divider chain or a clock divider for the LUCY chip. > (e.g. a diagram in the document you mentioned shows a div-6 between a 6MHz crystal osc and the LUCY chip. > The division factor may vary of course in the executel depending on the crystal.) > > Also to keep in mind as you trace it out, 749x counters were often used with gates between the > outputs and reset inputs to change the count modulus / division factor. I seem to remember Adrian said that the reset pins on these counters (assuming they are 7492s, and those pins are reset) come from an inverted version of the 8085 reset. I think it's unlikely that the 8085 will be continually reset, so I would think the counters were not reset by a combnation of their outputs. [Unknown resistor] > You can try measuring resistors in circuits like this with a DMM. > Switch the DMM leads to get both polarities through the resistor. > It's not guaranteed as it depends on the connected circuitry and the R value, but > one of the readings will often be your R value, or may confirm or give direction as to the value. > It's worth remembering that if you put the DMM leads across the resistor, then the reading can only be affected by other paths in parallel, and these will reduce the displayed resistance reading, never increase it. So if you have a resistor that might be either 2k2 or 33k (think about it) and you measure it in-circuit as 25.4k then, assuming it is not faulty, it must be 33k. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 21 14:45:11 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:45:11 -0800 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: References: <0EDA1D20-52A8-4D8B-98DA-CC0E2C787989@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <33E4F23C-1C93-476C-91C3-C37EE4F9BBD9@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Dec-21, at 11:44 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:37 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> The counters may be the beginning of a video timing divider chain or a clock divider for the LUCY chip. >> (e.g. a diagram in the document you mentioned shows a div-6 between a 6MHz crystal osc and the LUCY chip. >> The division factor may vary of course in the executel depending on the crystal.) >> >> Also to keep in mind as you trace it out, 749x counters were often used with gates between the >> outputs and reset inputs to change the count modulus / division factor. > > I seem to remember Adrian said that the reset pins on these counters (assuming > they are 7492s, and those pins are reset) come from an inverted version of > the 8085 reset. I think it's unlikely that the 8085 will be > continually reset, so > I would think the counters were not reset by a combnation of their outputs. He did mention they (pins 6,7 and 8085 reset) were in association with a 7414 but it wasn't entirely clear or ensured they were part of the same logic path as opposed to merely using separate inverters in the same chip. Timing divider chains typically don't need to be reset in sync with the system microproc, so there's the possibility, if not likelihood, they're logically unrelated; hence modulus alteration is something to keep in mind. From js at cimmeri.com Wed Dec 21 17:54:21 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 18:54:21 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <585B162D.8040808@cimmeri.com> On 12/17/2016 1:23 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: > I was (finally) lucky enough to acquire an Altair 680 back in November... Is there any logic to the naming of these Altairs? Wonder why it wasn't "Altair 8080" and "Altair 6800". 8800 and 680 don't follow the same pattern. ------ Had MITS made other Altairs... Altair 8800 = 8080 8850 = 8085 8860 = 8086 8880 = 8088 8286 = 80286 8386 = 80386 680 = 6800 680 = 6809 680 = 68000 ;-), - JS From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 18:06:49 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 18:06:49 -0600 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 5:54 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 12/17/2016 1:23 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: > >> I was (finally) lucky enough to acquire an Altair 680 back in November... >> > > Is there any logic to the naming of these Altairs? Wonder why it wasn't > "Altair 8080" and "Altair 6800". 8800 and 680 don't follow the same > pattern. > > ------ > > Had MITS made other Altairs... > > Altair 8800 = 8080 > 8850 = 8085 > 8860 = 8086 > 8880 = 8088 > 8286 = 80286 > 8386 = 80386 > 680 = 6800 > 680 = 6809 > 680 = 68000 > > ;-), > > - JS > ---------------------------- > lol, I would love to hear that too if anyone knows any stories behind the naming. Used to hurt my head to remember that it was an 8800 not an 8080. I know the fairly well published story about the name Altair but companies and their model numbers are always odd. From brendan at bslabs.net Wed Dec 21 19:07:31 2016 From: brendan at bslabs.net (Brendan Shanks) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 17:07:31 -0800 Subject: Late 90s Macintosh systems available to So Cal In-Reply-To: <43873CEF-3E5C-4D57-9F89-DC0BA2F9B7DF@yahoo.com> References: <43873CEF-3E5C-4D57-9F89-DC0BA2F9B7DF@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F6E53F5-1E40-4DE5-AF84-47FAF7F865C1@bslabs.net> Hi, I?m local (work in Irvine near the split). I?d be interested in the PowerBooks, and maybe some software. What kind of software do you have? Brendan > On Dec 19, 2016, at 4:01 PM, Steven Stengel wrote: > > I have a small pile of late 90s Macintosh systems available for someone to pick-up in 92656. > > Performa 6400/100 tower > > Some PowerBooks - 3400, 5300, 7630 > > Also boxes of cables and software. > > LaserWriter 4/600P > > Makes a great Christmas present! > > Thanks- > Steve. From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 21:15:19 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 21:15:19 -0600 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have my own ridiculous ad-hoc hypothesis on this.. Both names have a couple things in common - first, they do +not+ contain the actual CPU model. This may have been to avoid marketplace confusion and potential legal action from a outfit much bigger than Altair (Now who makes the 8080 again? Intel or Altair??). Secondly, the non-zero digits are in the same order in both model names - 680 (6800) and 8800 (8080). This most definitely does evoke the CPU model, and is easily recalled. The decision to go with 8800 (vs. 8008) may have been arbitrary, though "eighty-eighty" sounds a whole lot like "eighty-eight". The options for the 6800-based machine were not limited - other than 680, they had 6800 (sounds too much like 8800, though a case can be made for it..) and things like 6080 which would be just kind of weird (that's a well-known vacuum tube, btw). It's also worth noting that the 680 is physically smaller than the 8800, and the shorter three-digit model number seems to evoke a smaller product. On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 5:54 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > > > > On 12/17/2016 1:23 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: > > > >> I was (finally) lucky enough to acquire an Altair 680 back in > November... > >> > > > > Is there any logic to the naming of these Altairs? Wonder why it wasn't > > "Altair 8080" and "Altair 6800". 8800 and 680 don't follow the same > > pattern. > > > > ------ > > > > Had MITS made other Altairs... > > > > Altair 8800 = 8080 > > 8850 = 8085 > > 8860 = 8086 > > 8880 = 8088 > > 8286 = 80286 > > 8386 = 80386 > > 680 = 6800 > > 680 = 6809 > > 680 = 68000 > > > > ;-), > > > > - JS > > ---------------------------- > > > lol, I would love to hear that too if anyone knows any stories behind the > naming. Used to hurt my head to remember that it was an 8800 not an 8080. > I know the fairly well published story about the name Altair but companies > and their model numbers are always odd. > From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 21:16:43 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 21:16:43 -0600 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dammat. "were not limited" -> "were more limited" On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > I have my own ridiculous ad-hoc hypothesis on this.. > > Both names have a couple things in common - first, they do +not+ contain > the actual CPU model. This may have been to avoid marketplace confusion and > potential legal action from a outfit much bigger than Altair (Now who makes > the 8080 again? Intel or Altair??). > > Secondly, the non-zero digits are in the same order in both model names - > 680 (6800) and 8800 (8080). This most definitely does evoke the CPU model, > and is easily recalled. The decision to go with 8800 (vs. 8008) may have > been arbitrary, though "eighty-eighty" sounds a whole lot like > "eighty-eight". The options for the 6800-based machine were not limited - > other than 680, they had 6800 (sounds too much like 8800, though a case can > be made for it..) and things like 6080 which would be just kind of weird > (that's a well-known vacuum tube, btw). > > It's also worth noting that the 680 is physically smaller than the 8800, > and the shorter three-digit model number seems to evoke a smaller product. > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 5:54 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > On 12/17/2016 1:23 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: >> > >> >> I was (finally) lucky enough to acquire an Altair 680 back in >> November... >> >> >> > >> > Is there any logic to the naming of these Altairs? Wonder why it >> wasn't >> > "Altair 8080" and "Altair 6800". 8800 and 680 don't follow the same >> > pattern. >> > >> > ------ >> > >> > Had MITS made other Altairs... >> > >> > Altair 8800 = 8080 >> > 8850 = 8085 >> > 8860 = 8086 >> > 8880 = 8088 >> > 8286 = 80286 >> > 8386 = 80386 >> > 680 = 6800 >> > 680 = 6809 >> > 680 = 68000 >> > >> > ;-), >> > >> > - JS >> > ---------------------------- >> > >> lol, I would love to hear that too if anyone knows any stories behind the >> naming. Used to hurt my head to remember that it was an 8800 not an 8080. >> I know the fairly well published story about the name Altair but companies >> and their model numbers are always odd. >> > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Dec 22 03:10:08 2016 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (Steven Stengel) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 01:10:08 -0800 Subject: Late 90s Macintosh systems available to So Cal In-Reply-To: <4F6E53F5-1E40-4DE5-AF84-47FAF7F865C1@bslabs.net> References: <43873CEF-3E5C-4D57-9F89-DC0BA2F9B7DF@yahoo.com> <4F6E53F5-1E40-4DE5-AF84-47FAF7F865C1@bslabs.net> Message-ID: There's maybe hundreds of floppys and CDs - all included at one low low price. $0.00 > On Dec 21, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote: > > Hi, I?m local (work in Irvine near the split). I?d be interested in the PowerBooks, and maybe some software. What kind of software do you have? > > Brendan > > >> On Dec 19, 2016, at 4:01 PM, Steven Stengel wrote: >> >> I have a small pile of late 90s Macintosh systems available for someone to pick-up in 92656. >> >> Performa 6400/100 tower >> >> Some PowerBooks - 3400, 5300, 7630 >> >> Also boxes of cables and software. >> >> LaserWriter 4/600P >> >> Makes a great Christmas present! >> >> Thanks- >> Steve. > From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 04:04:45 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 02:04:45 -0800 Subject: Wanted Dead or Alive: Tadpole N40 Message-ID: Been having a baaaad month for hardware longevity. Lots of systems have died in 2016... A miserable year. Just took my only two Tadpole N40s out of cold storage and both are having some serious issues, stopping at 260 post code, no video, no status LCD, etc. If I had one more system, I'm sure I could get one running. If you have an N40 for sale, or that you'd consider selling, please ping me. I'd love to pay you for it :) Thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 04:10:25 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 02:10:25 -0800 Subject: Wanted Dead or Alive: Tadpole N40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Forgot to add, in addition to purchasing at what price you name, I will throw in a fully functional RDI PowerLite 1024x768 Sun4M laptop with two internal 2.5" hard drives. Your N40 doesn't even have to work. On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 2:04 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > Been having a baaaad month for hardware longevity. Lots of systems have > died in 2016... A miserable year. > > Just took my only two Tadpole N40s out of cold storage and both are having > some serious issues, stopping at 260 post code, no video, no status LCD, > etc. > > If I had one more system, I'm sure I could get one running. > > If you have an N40 for sale, or that you'd consider selling, please ping > me. I'd love to pay you for it :) > > Thanks, > > - Ian > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From shatle at nfldinet.com Thu Dec 22 07:43:46 2016 From: shatle at nfldinet.com (Steve Hatle) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 06:43:46 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue Message-ID: <20161222064346.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.70a72cd6b8.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue From: "Ian S. King" Date: Wed, December 14, 2016 1:30 am To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Take a look at the silk screen on the board - ISTR there's another chip that needs to be added, some simple TTL logic. I converted mine several years ago without problems - but that was with the original ROM. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate -- Just as a follow-up - I got the two RAM ICs that were missing (2102 1K RAM), and installed those along with the lower-case ROM, and everything now works great. Thanks everyone for your expertise and tips! Steve From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 22 11:49:44 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 10:49:44 -0700 Subject: Late 90s Macintosh systems available to So Cal In-Reply-To: References: <43873CEF-3E5C-4D57-9F89-DC0BA2F9B7DF@yahoo.com> <4F6E53F5-1E40-4DE5-AF84-47FAF7F865C1@bslabs.net> Message-ID: <75fca04d-fdcd-69c6-551e-099adf3ea028@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/22/2016 2:10 AM, Steven Stengel wrote: > There's maybe hundreds of floppys and CDs - all included at one low low price. $0.00 Wow ... K-tell records to K-tell software. Ben. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 22 12:29:30 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 18:29:30 +0000 Subject: Motorola MC14081B In-Reply-To: <8d4c99dd-fb32-6434-d73b-c885dffebe5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 21/12/2016 00:58, "Paul Berger" wrote: > On 2016-12-20 8:50 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Evening folks, >> >> (it's evening here) >> >> Typically for troubleshooting around $FESTIVAL I find a more-than-likely >> dead MC14081B (CMOS quad dual-input AND gates) just as UK postage ends for >> the next few days so getting a replacement won't happen until next week. >> >> Question is, aside from having to make up an adapter board to change the >> pins around and making sure Vcc is +5V is there any reason I can't use >> something like a 74LS08 for testing? One of the outputs is RESET for an >> 8085A so nothing too demanding. > If one of the other outputs is driving a CMOS device the output may not > go high enough to satisfy it, however I would expect the reset input on > the 8085A to be TTL compatible. Out of 4 outputs 2 are fed back into itself as inputs, one goes off to RESET via a 74LS04N and the 4th disappears into the phone side of things possibly to an Intel D8741A as well as seemingly being used as a base driver for a BC548 transistor. Inputs are from a 5V-fed resistor network and Vcc for all 3 CMOS chips comes from a 12V line via a 1kohm resistor. Tonight I'll make sure all the verdegris'd resistors and caps are ok. The 8085's arrived yesterday too, thanks! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 22 12:33:23 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 18:33:23 +0000 Subject: Motorola MC14081B In-Reply-To: <3ba057b0-d3a0-ad03-782e-110ed333d574@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 21/12/2016 03:23, "allison" wrote: >> If one of the other outputs is driving a CMOS device the output may >> not go high enough to satisfy it, however I would expect the reset >> input on the 8085A to be TTL compatible. > The 8085 reset input is not TTL, its schmidt trigger, and the level is > at the upper level for TTL. > If you use a 1K pullup then TTL, or open collector parts can be used as > well as CMOS. That explains the pullups I've seen on other 8085 devices I've found in boxes recently like the Open University HEKTOR 8085 trainer. > The 8085 was designed to have simple reset for cost sensitive aps where > the circuit was usually > 22K pullup and 1uf to ground. > > If you using anything a 74HCxx would easily satisfy the drive and loading. I think I've got a couple of 74HC08s that would do nicely, cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 22 12:52:42 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 18:52:42 +0000 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please In-Reply-To: <0EDA1D20-52A8-4D8B-98DA-CC0E2C787989@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 21/12/2016 19:37, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: > On 2016-Dec-17, at 10:34 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> One problem I have is that I've already found a few chips with dead outputs >> so I've no idea if these will be any different. The pinouts I have match the >> LS92 since pins 2/3/4/13 are NC. All testing so far has been done with a DMM >> and cheap logic analyser. Since one of the possibly-LS92s is out of circuit >> I'll build a little test circuit to see if it does actually count given a >> clock source... > > The counters may be the beginning of a video timing divider chain or a clock > divider for the LUCY chip. > (e.g. a diagram in the document you mentioned shows a div-6 between a 6MHz > crystal osc and the LUCY chip. > The division factor may vary of course in the executel depending on the > crystal.) That's a good point so I've revisited that section of board - one of the things that started me down this whole path was a missing video sync before I realised that the CPU wasn't running because of RESET and have spent many days since tracing and measuring trying to find the source. I'm pretty sure the LUCY chip is only there as a modem since the teletext display side of things is handled by a Plessey MR9735 and a pair of 2114 RAM chips as page store. The board's also fairly logically laid out, split 50/50 between phone and teletext with the teletext side split between CPU/glue, ROMs, RAM and display logic. LUCY is well over to the left on the phone side. > Also to keep in mind as you trace it out, 749x counters were often used with > gates between the outputs and reset inputs to change the count modulus / > division factor. Hopefully there's nothing complex here, the reset inputs are inverted via a 74LS14, input to that is from the CMOS MC14081B mentioned elsewhere through two hops over pins 1-2 then 3-4 of a 74LS04N. > > > On 2016-Dec-17, at 10:34 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> It's a 5-band red-red-black-black-violet so either 220R or 70k? Based on >> what Pete said about the Z80 I'm going for 220R without pulling it out of >> circuit. > > > Looking at the photo in your earlier message > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/stcexecuteltimingcircuits.jpg > the wide red band on the resistors would be a 2% tolerance indicator. > > As with Dwight's suggestion about colour confusion, if the resistors in > question are those to the left of the two unmarked chips (or similar), they > look like brown-black-black-red-wideRed, which would be standard 10K / 2%. Those are pullups on an output from one of the '92s over to one of the 3 light green telephony bits that I've not looked up, marked 'NMC1515/6/7' > You can try measuring resistors in circuits like this with a DMM. > Switch the DMM leads to get both polarities through the resistor. > It's not guaranteed as it depends on the connected circuitry and the R value, > but one of the readings will often be your R value, or may confirm or give > direction as to the value. I normally pull up one end and test out of circuit but I'll give that a go too. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Dec 22 09:49:49 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 10:49:49 -0500 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> On 12/21/2016 07:06 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 5:54 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> >> On 12/17/2016 1:23 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: >> >>> I was (finally) lucky enough to acquire an Altair 680 back in November... >>> >> Is there any logic to the naming of these Altairs? Wonder why it wasn't >> "Altair 8080" and "Altair 6800". 8800 and 680 don't follow the same >> pattern. >> >> ------ >> >> Had MITS made other Altairs... >> >> Altair 8800 = 8080 >> 8850 = 8085 >> 8860 = 8086 >> 8880 = 8088 >> 8286 = 80286 >> 8386 = 80386 >> 680 = 6800 >> 680 = 6809 >> 680 = 68000 >> >> ;-), >> >> - JS >> ---------------------------- >> > lol, I would love to hear that too if anyone knows any stories behind the > naming. Used to hurt my head to remember that it was an 8800 not an 8080. > I know the fairly well published story about the name Altair but companies > and their model numbers are always odd. > My bets.. I'd put $.09 on got the numbers wrong and went with it. then $0.01 on, it wasn't marketing. and $0.90 on, who cares. The 680 was from a market perspective a fail. The successful 6800 was SWTP. The 6502 was dominated by Apple. The Z80 had more players and more names than all the rest. That of course is MY US centric view other countries had theirs too. Almost all of the system naming of the day for the intel based systems and heirs (8080/8085/Z80/8088/8086) was irrational, illogical, and often just plain bad. Allison From lars at nocrew.org Thu Dec 22 13:56:10 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 20:56:10 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <86wpetve2s.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff's message of "Wed, 21 Dec 2016 10:14:35 +0100") References: <20161215142402.1A34118C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <86a8bx3ur4.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <86wpetve2s.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <86pokjspph.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> AI memo 161A: ITS 1.5 Reference Manual, July 1969: > An .OPEN on device USR with a second file name of "PDP10" may be made, > in all the modes allowed for regular procedures, to access the memory > of the PDP-10. So at this time, the AI PDP-6 was still the primary CPU. AI memo 238: ITS Status Report, April 1972: > Actually the Project MAC Dynamic Modelling Group uses a non-paged > early offshoot of ITS on their PDP-10. So it seems DM kept using the non-paged version of ITS, probably like what their PDP-6 did. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 22 14:01:47 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 15:01:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161222200147.6EE0018C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > AI memo 238: ITS Status Report, April 1972: >> Actually the Project MAC Dynamic Modelling Group uses a non-paged >> early offshoot of ITS on their PDP-10. > So it seems DM kept using the non-paged version of ITS, probably like > what their PDP-6 did. No, their KA10 had a paging box, made by System Concepts - probably programmatically similar to the ones on the other two KA's (looking at the ITS source would probably verify that). Note that in addition to the paging box, there were moderately extensive mods to the KA10 itself (on all three machines) to add a variety of instructions (to do things like, IIRC, flush the paging entry cache). Did the original KA10 have XCT too? And then there were things like the MAR. Now, how soon after their KA10 arrived it had the paging box, etc, added I have no idea - it sounds like they ran it without paging for a while. Noel From bygg at cafax.se Thu Dec 22 22:59:40 2016 From: bygg at cafax.se (Johnny Eriksson) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:59:40 WET Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 22 Dec 2016 15:01:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: > Did the original KA10 have XCT too? XCT is present in all PDP-10 processors. From the KI10 and onwards it includes PXCT, since these have the concept of a previous context... Given a pager for the KA10 PXCT would make sense there. > Noel --Johnny From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 22 18:00:35 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 19:00:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161223000035.A4A3F18C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Eriksson > From the KI10 and onwards it includes PXCT, since these have the > concept of a previous context... > Given a pager for the KA10 PXCT would make sense there. It turns out the KA ITS machines have an instruction that does roughly the same thing, but it's different. Here's the relevant code fragment from SYSTEM;ITS >: IFN KA10P,[ SUBTTL STUFF PECULIAR TO KA-10 PROCESSOR ;;;PAGING BOX INSTRUCTIONS LPM=102000,, ;LOAD PG MEM STATE VECTOR DONT CLR ASSOC MEM LPMR= LPM 2, ;CLEAR ASSOC MEM AND LOAD SPM= LPM 1, ;STORE PG MEM STATE VECTOR LPMRI=LPM 6, ;LOAD PM, CLEAR ASSOC REG, AND CAUSE INTERRUPT EXPGNG==4 .SEE UPQUAN ;4 TO TURN ON EXEC PAGING XCTR=103000,, ;EXECUTE INSTRUCTION WITH MAPPING CONTROLLED BY AC FIELD ;VIOLATION CAUSES USER MEM PROTECT INTERRUPT UNLESS INHIBITED ;VIOLATION ALSO SKIPS BUT THIS IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE UNLESS ;INTERRUPT IS INHIBITED SINCE PC WILL BE RESET FROM OPC XCTRI= XCTR 4, ;XCTR WITH PAGE FAULT INHIBITED (SKIPS ON FAULT) ; AC FIELD VALUES FOR XCTR AND XCTRI XR==1 ;MAP READ MAIN OPERAND OF SIMPLE INSTRUCTION (MOVE, SKIPL, HLL) XW==2 ;MAP WRITE MAIN OPERAND OF SIMPLE INSTRUCTION (MOVEM) XRW==3 ;MAP READ/WRITE OPERAND OF SIMPLE INSTRUCTION (E.G. IORM) XBYTE==3 ;MAP BYTE DATA AND BYTE POINTER (ILDB, IDPB) XBR==1 ;MAP BLT READ XBW==2 ;MAP BLT WRITE XBRW==3 ;MAP BOTH OPERANDS OF BLT ;KA10 PAGING BOX GOES BY WHETHER IT'S A READ OR WRITE (OR RW) CYCLE ;KL10 PAGING BOX WORKS DIFFERENTLY (SEE BELOW) ;DO NOT USE MULTI-OPERAND INSTRUCTIONS (DMOVE, PUSH, ETC.) WITH XCTR The KL and KS are both different (although both use XCTR and XCTRI); the KL stuff is later down in that file; the special KS instructions are in KSHACK;KSDEFS > if anyone wants to look at them. Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 22 18:13:48 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 00:13:48 +0000 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161223000035.A4A3F18C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 23/12/2016 00:00, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: >> From: Johnny Eriksson > >> From the KI10 and onwards it includes PXCT, since these have the >> concept of a previous context... >> Given a pager for the KA10 PXCT would make sense there. > > It turns out the KA ITS machines have an instruction that does roughly the > same thing, but it's different. Here's the relevant code fragment from > SYSTEM;ITS >: > > IFN KA10P,[ > > SUBTTL STUFF PECULIAR TO KA-10 PROCESSOR I love stuff like this and I'm quite miffed that I was born 10 years too late to see it all as it grew. Of course I'm grateful for what I HAVE seen over time, but these early years are fascinating to me. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 22 19:01:35 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 20:01:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161223010135.C662318C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Adrian Graham > I was born 10 years too late to see it all as it grew. ... these early > years are fascinating to me. Well, you _can_ still experience ITS! It runs under a number of PDP-10 simulators (and there used to be an 'open-access' ITS system on the 'net at its.svensson.org, but alas it doesn't seem to be up any more - although in a fit of fore-sightedness, I downloaded the source to the HTTP server he wrote while it was still up). But you can still download one of the emulators that supports the special ITS instructions on the PDP-10, KLH's KLH10, and SIMH; instructions, files, etc here for KLH10: http://klh10.trailing-edge.com/ and SIMH: https://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/ which give step-by-stop on how to get ITS running. Noel From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 20:01:46 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 20:01:46 -0600 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: "The Z80 had more players and more names than all the rest" And yet it was essentially a bit-player in the days of the 'home computer' revolution - at least in the US. CBM, Apple, Atari - the three big names in home computers, all went with the 6502 family. And perhaps even more importantly, so did Nintendo, in the NES. The main use of Z80 in US home computing was in the absurdly small Timex / Sinclair ZX80 series - with their awful cramped membrane keyboards and seriously limited sound & video. The Z80 also showed up in the Osborne, Kaypro and TRS-80 models.. mostly due to the fact that CP/M was written to it. Commodore also put one in the C128, but by then, it was almost a dead letter. On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 9:49 AM, allison wrote: > On 12/21/2016 07:06 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 5:54 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > >> > >> On 12/17/2016 1:23 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: > >> > >>> I was (finally) lucky enough to acquire an Altair 680 back in > November... > >>> > >> Is there any logic to the naming of these Altairs? Wonder why it > wasn't > >> "Altair 8080" and "Altair 6800". 8800 and 680 don't follow the same > >> pattern. > >> > >> ------ > >> > >> Had MITS made other Altairs... > >> > >> Altair 8800 = 8080 > >> 8850 = 8085 > >> 8860 = 8086 > >> 8880 = 8088 > >> 8286 = 80286 > >> 8386 = 80386 > >> 680 = 6800 > >> 680 = 6809 > >> 680 = 68000 > >> > >> ;-), > >> > >> - JS > >> ---------------------------- > >> > > lol, I would love to hear that too if anyone knows any stories behind the > > naming. Used to hurt my head to remember that it was an 8800 not an 8080. > > I know the fairly well published story about the name Altair but > companies > > and their model numbers are always odd. > > > My bets.. > > I'd put $.09 on got the numbers wrong and went with it. > then $0.01 on, it wasn't marketing. > and $0.90 on, who cares. > > The 680 was from a market perspective a fail. The successful 6800 was > SWTP. > The 6502 was dominated by Apple. > The Z80 had more players and more names than all the rest. > > That of course is MY US centric view other countries had theirs too. > > Almost all of the system naming of the day for the intel based systems > and heirs > (8080/8085/Z80/8088/8086) was irrational, illogical, and often just > plain bad. > > > Allison > > From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 21:17:45 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 20:17:45 -0700 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 7:01 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > The Z80 also showed up in the Osborne, Kaypro and TRS-80 models.. mostly > due to the fact that CP/M was written to it. > Use of the Z80 in the mainstream TRS-80 models (1 and III) had little or nothing to do with CP/M. The special CP/M with a non-standard TPA needed for the Model 1 and III was just about useless, since it would only run special TRS-80 versions of CP/M software. There were third-party mods for the Model 1 and III to run a normal CP/M, but only a tiny fraction of TRS-80 users did that. CP/M may have been more of a factor for the Model II/12/16/6000, which could run a normal CP/M without any hardware mods, as could the later Model 4 and 4P. Most Model II family machines I saw in the wild were used to run Radio Shack's accounting and business software on TRS-DOS II; few used CP/M, possibly because there were much lower cost CP/M systems available elsewhere. Most Model 4 owners I knew didn't do any serious CP/M use on it, and mostly used the 4 as an improved-spec III running TRS-DOS/LDOS/etc. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 21:44:29 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 20:44:29 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A Lower case ROM issue In-Reply-To: <20161222064346.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.70a72cd6b8.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> References: <20161222064346.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.70a72cd6b8.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> Message-ID: >From the ADM3A Maintenance Manual, page 6-11: The two character generator ROMs are rather straightforward. The upper case > ROM is a standard masked part (2513) but the lower case ROM is a custom > masked part. The one unusual thing about this is that all of the address > lines into the lower case character generator are inverted. > That refers to the character code address inputs to the ROMs; the line address is common between the two. The character addresses for the ROMs come from two 74LS175 four-bit latches at K13 and L13, which have both inverting and non-inverting outputs. The non-inverting outputs go to the UC 2513 ROM (L15), while inverting outputs go to the LC ROM (L14). >From the schematic, the only TTL chip that appears to be needed solely for the LC option is the 74LS157 at K12, but I'm not sure whether a UC-only model would work without that installed. The manual doesn't show that part as optional. My UC-only ADM3A does have it. Upgrading from UC to UC/LC does require adding the H11 and J11 RAM chips for the seventh bit of the refresh memory. Only one of the RAMs has to be installed for a 12-row-ony model. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 22 22:04:48 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 20:04:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: We all hang out with people who are smart enough to see things the same way that we do. Accordingly, our choices in computers, cars, cellphone providers always look to us like the MAJORITY. They are the BEST, and certainly the MOST POPULAR [among everybody that WE hang out with], but not necessarily the best selling. If the world were just, and the BEST outsold the worst, then we would all be using Amiga :-) On Thu, 22 Dec 2016, drlegendre . wrote: > "The Z80 had more players and more names than all the rest" > And yet it was essentially a bit-player in the days of the 'home computer' > revolution - at least in the US. CBM, Apple, Atari - the three big names in > home computers, all went with the 6502 family. And perhaps even more > importantly, so did Nintendo, in the NES. And yet, somehow, z80 was outselling 6502! http://jeremyreimer.com/m-item.lsp?i=137 Radio Shack, TRS-80, WAS one of the "three big names". It had a not-insignificant share of the market, and until 1982 was the best selling. Don't ignore the impact of having incompetents peddling in thousands of store, in every city and town! Atari took a while longer to get market share. http://www.trs-80.org/was-the-trs-80-once-the-top-selling-computer/ At the same time. Depending on how you define "first" ("first" to show V "first" to ship V "first" to be available for shelf purchase) will define whether Apple, Commodore, or Radio Shack was "the first". It is trivially esay to select a definition of "first" to make it your choice of those. Apple was the first of those announced and shown. I bought a TRS-80 ($400 (or $600 if you wanted their composite monitor and cassette player)) because it was the first one [by multiple months] that I could walk in the door of a local store and buy one. The more appealing Apple, which had been announced earlier that TRS-80, was hard to come by for several more months. That time differential of months seems inconsequential 40 years later, but it mattered to me right then. And, for most rational measures, Apple, TRS-80 and Commodore initial releases were a tie. (Was the photo finish by a nose, a whisker, or a hoof?) When the 5150 came out in August 1981, it was months before I could actually get one. AFTER the 5150 came out, people relized that TRS-80 was doomed, and in 1982, Apple 2 finally started to outsell TRS-80. It was LESS obvious that Apple 2 was doomed. But, within Apple, they knew there were troubled times ahead, and came out with the disastrous Apple 3, and disastrous [from point of view of SALES] Lisa. 'Course IBM poisoned the market for everything else, and nothing else sold like IBM. On August 12, 1981, I said "In 10 years, 3/4 of the market will be IBM PC and imitations of it." It is amazingly impressive that Apple (Mac) survived IBM! (If you think that Mac outsold PC, then you are looking at YOUR circle, and need to look at actual sales numbers) But, by the time that the Mac came out, TRS-80 was finally becoming that "bit player" that some assume that it was, or should have been. > The main use of Z80 in US home > computing was in the absurdly small Timex / Sinclair ZX80 series - with > their awful cramped membrane keyboards and seriously limited sound & video. Which was years later, and WAS a bit player and absurdly small. It was NEVER the main use of Z80 in USA home computing. TRS-80 outsold them more than 100 to 1. Was that really a membrane keyboard, or was it just a PICTURE of a keyboard as a recommendation, like the "part of this complete breakfast". > The Z80 also showed up in the Osborne, Kaypro and TRS-80 models.. mostly > due to the fact that CP/M was written to it. Commodore also put one in the > C128, but by then, it was almost a dead letter. CP/M was written to 8080. Z80 was simply the "hottest" 8080 compatible processor available. Osborne and Kaypro were literally years later, and they did, indeed simply build clever, innovative CP/M machines. I've never been sure how much market share CP/M had, since that was a different circle than I was hanging out in. I'm sure that WITHIN that circle, it would seem like it was MOST of the market. Commodore's Z80 in the 128 was due to unnecessary fear that they might lose market share to CP/M, when IBM should have been their big worry. I don't know all of the details of the ST/Amiga technology swap, but BOTH were too late, if the primary goal was competing with IBM. What percentage of Apple 2's had Z80 cards added to them? (once estimated at an unbelievable 20%, and reputed to be why IBM thought that CP/M was a Microsoft product!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 22 22:37:37 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 20:37:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: NO source is completely reliable. > http://jeremyreimer.com/m-item.lsp?i=137 http://jeremyreimer.com/uploads/notes-on-sources.txt He does provide some information on his sources. When we talk about sales, are we talking about UNITS, or about dollars? (an important distinction for such as the ZX80 V anything else!) His curve fitting is flawed. For example, in his 1975 to 1981 graph, he has points for sales of TRS-80 of ZERO in 1976, and LOTS in 1977. But, then he just drew a straight line, which erroneously implies a linear increase, with sales in 1976. THAT derivative should be a vertical line, not a slope, unless/until you add more resolution for months, instead of years, representing an extremely steep slope in the end of 1977. At least his last graph leaves off the "USA Today" fill in graphics, and shows the individual data points. Which, I'm pleased to say, show C64 outselling ANYTHING ELSE for a couple of years. But, the vertical scale?? That's 100% of WHAT? If it were percentage of market share, then it should TOTAL to 100% each year, albeit with a significant "Other" category. ("Other" is approximately "PC Share" inverted from the 50% line?) Does anybody know of a BETTER source for sales numbers? Again, "everybody/MOST uses/used" doesn't work. But, "everybody/MOST who knew what they were doing" does. From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 22:45:10 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:45:10 -0600 Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: @Grumpy Old Fred I knew my last missive would provoke at least one or two interesting (if not informative) responses. Yours was no exception, and I thank you for it. For one, I hadn't known that CP/M was written originally to the 8080.. I'd always assumed it originated on the Z80. And I don't doubt that RS / TRS-80 held a large share (until 1982 or so..) of the home computer market. At the time, I was in my (almost) young teens - and at least in the circles I traveled, the TRS-80 / Osborne and Kaypro were viewed as boring, stodgy machines without any redeeming entertainment qualities - no color graphics, no sprites, poor or nearly non-existent audio, expensive joysticks and so on. The ability of the machines to serve multiple roles - for both 'serious' work and video gaming / music - was a huge selling point in the early days. This is one of the reasons that the C64 was so massively successful - it pretty much had something for everyone, as the saying goes. That, and the price of the base machine was just amazingly low for the time. Ditto for the VIC-20. On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 10:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > We all hang out with people who are smart enough to see things the same > way that we do. Accordingly, our choices in computers, cars, cellphone > providers always look to us like the MAJORITY. They are the BEST, and > certainly the MOST POPULAR [among everybody that WE hang out with], but not > necessarily the best selling. > > If the world were just, and the BEST outsold the worst, then we would all > be using Amiga :-) > > > On Thu, 22 Dec 2016, drlegendre . wrote: > >> "The Z80 had more players and more names than all the rest" >> And yet it was essentially a bit-player in the days of the 'home computer' >> revolution - at least in the US. CBM, Apple, Atari - the three big names >> in >> home computers, all went with the 6502 family. And perhaps even more >> importantly, so did Nintendo, in the NES. >> > > And yet, somehow, z80 was outselling 6502! > > http://jeremyreimer.com/m-item.lsp?i=137 > > Radio Shack, TRS-80, WAS one of the "three big names". It had a > not-insignificant share of the market, and until 1982 was the best > selling. Don't ignore the impact of having incompetents peddling in > thousands of store, in every city and town! > Atari took a while longer to get market share. > http://www.trs-80.org/was-the-trs-80-once-the-top-selling-computer/ > > At the same time. > Depending on how you define "first" ("first" to show V "first" to ship V > "first" to be available for shelf purchase) will define whether Apple, > Commodore, or Radio Shack was "the first". It is trivially esay to select > a definition of "first" to make it your choice of those. Apple was the > first of those announced and shown. > I bought a TRS-80 ($400 (or $600 if you wanted their composite monitor and > cassette player)) because it was the first one [by multiple months] that I > could walk in the door of a local store and buy one. The more appealing > Apple, which had been announced earlier that TRS-80, was hard to come by > for several more months. > > That time differential of months seems inconsequential 40 years later, but > it mattered to me right then. And, for most rational measures, Apple, > TRS-80 and Commodore initial releases were a tie. > (Was the photo finish by a nose, a whisker, or a hoof?) > When the 5150 came out in August 1981, it was months before I could > actually get one. > > AFTER the 5150 came out, people relized that TRS-80 was doomed, and in > 1982, Apple 2 finally started to outsell TRS-80. It was LESS obvious that > Apple 2 was doomed. But, within Apple, they knew there were troubled times > ahead, and came out with the disastrous Apple 3, and disastrous [from point > of view of SALES] Lisa. > > 'Course IBM poisoned the market for everything else, and nothing else sold > like IBM. On August 12, 1981, I said "In 10 years, 3/4 of the market will > be IBM PC and imitations of it." > It is amazingly impressive that Apple (Mac) survived IBM! > (If you think that Mac outsold PC, then you are looking at YOUR circle, > and need to look at actual sales numbers) > But, by the time that the Mac came out, TRS-80 was finally becoming that > "bit player" that some assume that it was, or should have been. > > The main use of Z80 in US home >> computing was in the absurdly small Timex / Sinclair ZX80 series - with >> their awful cramped membrane keyboards and seriously limited sound & >> video. >> > Which was years later, and WAS a bit player and absurdly small. It was > NEVER the main use of Z80 in USA home computing. TRS-80 outsold them more > than 100 to 1. > Was that really a membrane keyboard, or was it just a PICTURE of a > keyboard as a recommendation, like the "part of this complete breakfast". > > The Z80 also showed up in the Osborne, Kaypro and TRS-80 models.. mostly >> due to the fact that CP/M was written to it. Commodore also put one in the >> C128, but by then, it was almost a dead letter. >> > > CP/M was written to 8080. Z80 was simply the "hottest" 8080 compatible > processor available. > Osborne and Kaypro were literally years later, and they did, indeed simply > build clever, innovative CP/M machines. > > I've never been sure how much market share CP/M had, since that was a > different circle than I was hanging out in. I'm sure that WITHIN that > circle, it would seem like it was MOST of the market. > > Commodore's Z80 in the 128 was due to unnecessary fear that they might > lose market share to CP/M, when IBM should have been their big worry. > I don't know all of the details of the ST/Amiga technology swap, but BOTH > were too late, if the primary goal was competing with IBM. > > What percentage of Apple 2's had Z80 cards added to them? > (once estimated at an unbelievable 20%, and reputed to be why IBM thought > that CP/M was a Microsoft product!) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From johnl at johnlabovitz.com Thu Dec 22 22:49:00 2016 From: johnl at johnlabovitz.com (John Labovitz) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 23:49:00 -0500 Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9F5DCF76-4686-4F8D-B022-D8A6FB9F0C35@johnlabovitz.com> I?ll chime in on the Z80 preference, since I was there at the time. In the very early 1980s, when I was about 15, my father decided to buy a home computer. (Before that, he had a TI Silent 700 that dialed up to a Univac mainframe.) I remember him doing hours of research comparing the Apple II, the TRS-80, the Commodore PET, and probably some of the S-100 machines. He eventually chose the Heathkit H89. I?ll have to ask him exactly why, but I know that he?s always liked good-quality tools, and the combination of the Heathkit design, the Z80 CPU, and CP/M seemed like the best combination of tools at the time. I think it was probably a bit like the current perception of Apple?s hardware: expensive, but well-built and well-designed (minus some of the latest missteps). The other ?lesser? machines seemed far clunkier (excepting the S-100 stuff). I did some Z80 assembly when I was a kid, and even the notation of that language seemed clearer, more zen-like, than the 8080, and certainly than the 6502. Sorry to say, but when I hung out with friends who had Apple IIs, I always found their 40-character display mighty lacking? TRS-80s were fun to play with (and I did frequently at the local Radio Shack), but seemed much more oriented towards either simple BASIC programming, or business use ? pretty boring for a 15-year old. ;) CP/M, too, at least *seemed* more connected to the minicomputer world. We had a variety of assemblers and compilers; I learned C, assembly, LISP (well, not really), BASIC, word processors ? and via our 300-baud modem, dialed up to the ARPAnet. Not to say that one couldn?t do that with the other machines, but even at the time, the Heathkit with CP/M seemed more of what we?d now call ?server class.? In fact, I ran a BBS for a year or two on that machine, with hand-rolled messaging software in BASIC, and the BYE software to handle the magic of dial-up access to a microcomputer. Finally, the Heathkit was ? not surprisingly ? a kit. As a teenager, I I soldered together two or three H89s, several H19 terminals, and at least one printer; that experience taught me *so much* about the physical workings of computers. ?John From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Dec 23 04:59:10 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 11:59:10 +0100 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 08:01:46PM -0600, drlegendre . wrote: > "The Z80 had more players and more names than all the rest" > And yet it was essentially a bit-player in the days of the 'home computer' > revolution - at least in the US. CBM, Apple, Atari - the three big names in > home computers, all went with the 6502 family. And perhaps even more > importantly, so did Nintendo, in the NES. The main use of Z80 in US home > computing was in the absurdly small Timex / Sinclair ZX80 series - with their > awful cramped membrane keyboards and seriously limited sound & video. The "at least in the US" caveat is important :) Sinclair's Z80-based ZX Spectrum was outrageously successful in the UK. Every teenage bedroom seemed to have one by the late 1980s. The various 6502-based machines from Acorn and Commodore were relatively uncommon, and I've seen exactly one Apple II. People who know Uncle Clive's unwillingness to spend a penny more than he has to on bulding computers may wonder why they selected the relatively expensive Z80 over the 6502, but it was because they managed to trick the Z80's address-fetcting and instruction decoding cycle into generating video on the ZX80 and ZX81, and thus saved more money elsewhere. It wasn't until the Spectrum that they bothered with DMA like proper computers, and then didn't *need* to stick with the Z80, but chose to keep it anyway. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 05:14:28 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 04:14:28 -0700 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 3:59 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > People who know Uncle Clive's unwillingness to spend a penny more than he > has > to on bulding computers may wonder why they selected the relatively > expensive > Z80 over the 6502, but it was because they managed to trick the Z80's > address-fetcting and instruction decoding cycle into generating video on > the > ZX80 and ZX81, and thus saved more money elsewhere. The same trick works perfectly well with a 6502, and in fact was invented by Don Lancaster using a 6502 years before the ZX80 was designed. That doesn't really explain the choice of the Z80. Also, by the time the ZX80 was introduced, both the Z80 and 6502 were basically dirt cheap. Any premium price the Z80 had once commanded had long since evaporated. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 06:18:59 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 13:18:59 +0100 Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 23 December 2016 at 05:45, drlegendre . wrote: urs was no exception, and I thank you for it. > > For one, I hadn't known that CP/M was written originally to the 8080.. I'd > always assumed it originated on the Z80. There are only 8080 instructions in CP/M, not a single Z80-specific instruction. CP/M came about around 1974, the Z80 in 1976. All the CP/M computers I used had a Z80, but that's just shows what was popular at the time. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 23 06:54:06 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 07:54:06 -0500 Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4b4aa3af-b876-db4c-c1f8-741a009752e6@verizon.net> On 12/22/2016 11:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > NO source is completely reliable. > > >> http://jeremyreimer.com/m-item.lsp?i=137 > http://jeremyreimer.com/uploads/notes-on-sources.txt > > He does provide some information on his sources. > > When we talk about sales, are we talking about UNITS, or about dollars? > (an important distinction for such as the ZX80 V anything else!) > > > His curve fitting is flawed. For example, in his 1975 to 1981 graph, > he has points for sales of TRS-80 of ZERO in 1976, and LOTS in 1977. > But, then he just drew a straight line, which erroneously implies a > linear increase, with sales in 1976. THAT derivative should be a > vertical line, not a slope, unless/until you add more resolution for > months, instead of years, representing an extremely steep slope in the > end of 1977. > As someone that was on the front end of the TRS80 it went from Zero to 60 in '77 as the first deliveries were a batch of 1000 then 5000 to the stores. they sold very fast far faster than expected. Indeed the first 12 months had a very steep curve. Most number and data I see to day in the popular media is just plain wrong. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 23 08:02:55 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 09:02:55 -0500 Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4df287b4-0fb8-4f29-39ec-123a31ddb7ac@verizon.net> On 12/22/2016 11:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > We all hang out with people who are smart enough to see things the > same way that we do. Accordingly, our choices in computers, cars, > cellphone providers always look to us like the MAJORITY. They are > the BEST, and certainly the MOST POPULAR [among everybody that WE hang > out with], but not necessarily the best selling. > > If the world were just, and the BEST outsold the worst, then we would > all be using Amiga :-) > > > On Thu, 22 Dec 2016, drlegendre . wrote: >> "The Z80 had more players and more names than all the rest" >> And yet it was essentially a bit-player in the days of the 'home >> computer' >> revolution - at least in the US. CBM, Apple, Atari - the three big >> names in >> home computers, all went with the 6502 family. And perhaps even more >> importantly, so did Nintendo, in the NES. > > And yet, somehow, z80 was outselling 6502! > Both had a very long life in systems and embedded products. It wasn't cost, I truly believe it was the generations that had trash 80 , apple][, and others containing them and were familiar. > http://jeremyreimer.com/m-item.lsp?i=137 > > Radio Shack, TRS-80, WAS one of the "three big names". It had a > not-insignificant share of the market, and until 1982 was the best > selling. Don't ignore the impact of having incompetents peddling in > thousands of store, in every city and town! > Atari took a while longer to get market share. > http://www.trs-80.org/was-the-trs-80-once-the-top-selling-computer/ > For a brief moment in the history of computers that was indeed true. Then other better developed systems displaced it. > At the same time. > Depending on how you define "first" ("first" to show V "first" to ship > V "first" to be available for shelf purchase) will define whether > Apple, Commodore, or Radio Shack was "the first". It is trivially > esay to select a definition of "first" to make it your choice of > those. Apple was the first of those announced and shown. > I bought a TRS-80 ($400 (or $600 if you wanted their composite monitor > and cassette player)) because it was the first one [by multiple > months] that I could walk in the door of a local store and buy one. > The more appealing Apple, which had been announced earlier that > TRS-80, was hard to come by for several more months. > Marketing over actual design plus plain availability. > That time differential of months seems inconsequential 40 years later, > but it mattered to me right then. And, for most rational measures, > Apple, TRS-80 and Commodore initial releases were a tie. > (Was the photo finish by a nose, a whisker, or a hoof?) > When the 5150 came out in August 1981, it was months before I could > actually get one. > > AFTER the 5150 came out, people relized that TRS-80 was doomed, and in > 1982, Apple 2 finally started to outsell TRS-80. It was LESS obvious > that Apple 2 was doomed. But, within Apple, they knew there were > troubled times ahead, and came out with the disastrous Apple 3, and > disastrous [from point of view of SALES] Lisa. > Not true in its entirety. IF you look at the 1980 and 1981 issues on Byte, interface age, Kilobaud, and Dr Dobbs it was clear 16 bits was the next step. There were systems delivering that but it was all very new despite the 8088 being already old! The 5150 was not so much the great 16bitter as it was IBM. Having those three letter made it official. What interesting was I had at work a multibus system with 8086 running at 8mhz the summer of 1981 to do work and IBM was running at 4.77mhz. At that speed it was not that much faster than Z80. > 'Course IBM poisoned the market for everything else, and nothing else > sold like IBM. On August 12, 1981, I said "In 10 years, 3/4 of the > market will be IBM PC and imitations of it." > It is amazingly impressive that Apple (Mac) survived IBM! > (If you think that Mac outsold PC, then you are looking at YOUR > circle, and need to look at actual sales numbers) > But, by the time that the Mac came out, TRS-80 was finally becoming > that "bit player" that some assume that it was, or should have been. > The life of TRS80 was from introduction in '77 and was doing the downhill slide by 1980. In those days that was a long life for a point product. >> The main use of Z80 in US home >> computing was in the absurdly small Timex / Sinclair ZX80 series - with >> their awful cramped membrane keyboards and seriously limited sound & >> video. > Which was years later, and WAS a bit player and absurdly small. It was > NEVER the main use of Z80 in USA home computing. TRS-80 outsold them > more than 100 to 1. > Was that really a membrane keyboard, or was it just a PICTURE of a > keyboard as a recommendation, like the "part of this complete breakfast". > The T/ZX80 was mostly viewed as a toy. It was late here for that level of a machine. Still it was small and cheap and a more than a few were embedded into systems... ;) >> The Z80 also showed up in the Osborne, Kaypro and TRS-80 models.. mostly >> due to the fact that CP/M was written to it. Commodore also put one >> in the >> C128, but by then, it was almost a dead letter. > > CP/M was written to 8080. Z80 was simply the "hottest" 8080 > compatible processor available. > Osborne and Kaypro were literally years later, and they did, indeed > simply build clever, innovative CP/M machines. > CP/M was 8080 code save for one thing by 1980 finding 8080 compatible aps was getting difficult. Also most of the CP/M implementations were hybrid code, CP/M core was 8080 and most everything else including the bios was Z80. Also it was the introduction period for ZCPR, and P2DOSThat spawned a generation of improved CP/M and then CP/M3. > I've never been sure how much market share CP/M had, since that was a > different circle than I was hanging out in. I'm sure that WITHIN that > circle, it would seem like it was MOST of the market. > It was the 8080/8085//z80 market. The only other that had volume but was very hardware specific was TRS-dos or the kin LDOS. Granted Cormemco had their unix like os (chromix) and ther ewer others like NS*DOS. But if you wanted the miainline aps it was CP/M. Even Microsoft was a major supplier of aps and language tools for that base. > Commodore's Z80 in the 128 was due to unnecessary fear that they might > lose market share to CP/M, when IBM should have been their big worry. > I don't know all of the details of the ST/Amiga technology swap, but > BOTH were too late, if the primary goal was competing with IBM. > Late and strange. > What percentage of Apple 2's had Z80 cards added to them? > (once estimated at an unbelievable 20%, and reputed to be why IBM > thought that CP/M was a Microsoft product!) > Likely that 20% was close to right. IT was a good base to have A z80 in as a full up apple had good display (high res version) and disk and tools support. It was also around the time when the ap was more important than what CPU you bowed to. I have the advantage of being there not as a kid but as a professional trying to be bleeding edge and grapple with all the different machines. My history includes designing with 8008 commercially in late 72 into 73 while still in college. I ordered my Altair 8800 in December of 1974 (1 week after I received the copy of PE). I would retire that before the end of '77 for a NS* horizon crate to replace the very flaky Altair (who would think gold over copper without nickel would be so bad!). I would move to extending that NS* to multiple cpus and softsector floppies. At the same time I played with COSMAC, SC/MP/, 8035, TI9900 (technico Super starter system), 6800 (d1), Kim-1.... I watched the computer world evolved from my exposure to PDP-8 in 69 though 32bits (VAX) by 1982 and got to participate and play with most all of it. The biggest thing was not what CPU you had but what could you do with it. It was the appearance of the applications, programming tools and languages (BASIC, assemblers, higher level languages), screen editor (electric pencil), spread sheet (visicalc), the data bases (DBASE), Those were the things that made a Apple or TRS80 of CP/M box useful and desirable. No coincidence that mass storage specifically floppies then later hard disks were a factor. If your system could not run those aps and connect those devices it was replaced. Its why apple ][ and Z80 based CP/M had the longer life (presence) as the initial 5150 was a few years getting to that point both in capability, aps, and cost. To my experience The PC did not displace existing Apples][ and CP/M until its cost and advantage was well established as people already had sunk cost and functional aps. For those that were new to it all the PC was the TRS80 warts, incompatibility, and all and thats why I felt the PC was a long step backward until the 286 and 386 appeared. The PC world to me by then was moribund as it was not better and I had 16 and 32bit machines that were both faster and better. I was a late adopter of PC as it was compatibility with the ecosystem that forced it as PDP11 and VAX was still better and functional until IP based networking was important in the late 90s. Allison > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From lars at nocrew.org Fri Dec 23 08:50:50 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 15:50:50 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: (Adrian Graham's message of "Fri, 23 Dec 2016 00:13:48 +0000") References: Message-ID: <86d1gisnqt.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Adrian Graham writes: > I love stuff like this and I'm quite miffed that I was born 10 years > too late to see it all as it grew. Of course I'm grateful for what I > HAVE seen over time, but these early years are fascinating to me. It's not too late to grow it some moore! From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 09:16:53 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 15:16:53 +0000 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 23 December 2016 at 10:59, Peter Corlett wrote: > The "at least in the US" caveat is important :) Absolutely. > Sinclair's Z80-based ZX Spectrum was outrageously successful in the UK. Every > teenage bedroom seemed to have one by the late 1980s. The various 6502-based > machines from Acorn and Commodore were relatively uncommon, and I've seen > exactly one Apple II. Pretty much, yes. The VIC-20 did OK, and the C-64 later, as the price came down. However, back then, around '81-'82-'83, a working Spectrum setup cost about a quarter of what a C-64 cost. It was the premium games machine for the children of fairly rich folks. The BBC Micro, at another quarter or third over the price of a C-64 but with a superb BASIC instead of CBM's abomination, was what the unfortunate children of very serious, very wealthy people bought. Not nearly so many games and not very good. Whereas the Apple ][ cost more than 2 BBC Micros -- as much as a small car. And it wasn't all that good anyway, because by then, it was a 5YO design. So only misguided millionaires owned them. Some unlucky kids got the Oric-1, a not-common but not-all-that-bad 6502 machine, around '83 or '84. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/28/the_oric_1_is_30_years_old/?page=1 The US world was profoundly different from, well, the rest of the planet. As usual. Americans got amazing-sounding fancy machines that cost from as much as a car to as much as a house, with stuff like *expansion slots* and *professional OSes* that could run business software that [a] cost as much for a single copy as a well-specified complete Sinclair setup with monitor and disk interface and drives, and [b] was utterly uninteresting to schoolkids. Cheap British computer: ?100. Cheap American computer: $1000. Even though back then ?1=$2 or something, still, the American kit was all ludicrously expensive and as rare as rocking-horse droppings outside North America. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Dec 23 09:50:04 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 12:50:04 -0300 Subject: BBC Micro - was Re: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <18b4fd5d-357e-5797-a5e5-f891c90cb87c@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-12-23 12:16 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > ... > The BBC Micro, at another quarter or third over the price of a C-64 > but with a superb BASIC instead of CBM's abomination, was what the > unfortunate children of very serious, very wealthy people bought. Not > nearly so many games and not very good. > The Acornsoft games were very high quality (hard to distinguish from their arcade inspirations). But I was mostly interested in programming, so I loved our BBC Micro Model B to bits. A far superior machine to the Apple and Commodores. --Toby > Whereas the Apple ][ cost more than 2 BBC Micros -- as much as a small > ... From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 11:00:03 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 17:00:03 +0000 Subject: BBC Micro - was Re: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: <18b4fd5d-357e-5797-a5e5-f891c90cb87c@telegraphics.com.au> References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> <18b4fd5d-357e-5797-a5e5-f891c90cb87c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 23 December 2016 at 15:50, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-12-23 12:16 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> ... >> The BBC Micro, at another quarter or third over the price of a C-64 >> but with a superb BASIC instead of CBM's abomination, was what the >> unfortunate children of very serious, very wealthy people bought. Not >> nearly so many games and not very good. >> > > The Acornsoft games were very high quality (hard to distinguish from their > arcade inspirations). > > But I was mostly interested in programming, so I loved our BBC Micro Model B > to bits. A far superior machine to the Apple and Commodores. I agree that it was a far superior machine. It had its limitations -- shortage of RAM, notably -- but it was a great design. I'll have to take your word for it on the arcade games. TBH I was just repeating what I've heard -- which was wrong of me. :-( Sorry... The classics I've heard of, apart of course from Elite, were Repton and Revs, but there were others. I never owned or much used Acorn kit in the 6502 era. I only came to Acorn via the Archimedes, a machine which I loved. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Dec 23 11:23:45 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 14:23:45 -0300 Subject: BBC Micro - was Re: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> <18b4fd5d-357e-5797-a5e5-f891c90cb87c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <3ade7865-0f9b-9dc6-ed68-4de4e2e4415a@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-12-23 2:00 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 23 December 2016 at 15:50, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2016-12-23 12:16 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> The BBC Micro, at another quarter or third over the price of a C-64 >>> but with a superb BASIC instead of CBM's abomination, was what the >>> unfortunate children of very serious, very wealthy people bought. Not >>> nearly so many games and not very good. >>> >> >> The Acornsoft games were very high quality (hard to distinguish from their >> arcade inspirations). >> >> But I was mostly interested in programming, so I loved our BBC Micro Model B >> to bits. A far superior machine to the Apple and Commodores. > > I agree that it was a far superior machine. It had its limitations -- > shortage of RAM, notably -- but it was a great design. > > I'll have to take your word for it on the arcade games. TBH I was just > repeating what I've heard -- which was wrong of me. :-( Sorry... > > The classics I've heard of, apart of course from Elite, were Repton > and Revs, but there were others. The Acornsoft games included clones of Defender (Planetoid), Scramble, Pac-man, and many others. They were all written in assembler by apparent masters of the craft and were highly sought after. It's probably true that there were fewer independent games than the American platforms, but Acorn invested hugely in their ROM, cassette and disk software library (including a number of language ROMs). --Toby > > I never owned or much used Acorn kit in the 6502 era. I only came to > Acorn via the Archimedes, a machine which I loved. > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 11:29:38 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 17:29:38 +0000 Subject: BBC Micro - was Re: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> <18b4fd5d-357e-5797-a5e5-f891c90cb87c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: >> But I was mostly interested in programming, so I loved our BBC Micro Model B >> to bits. A far superior machine to the Apple and Commodores. > > I agree that it was a far superior machine. It had its limitations -- > shortage of RAM, notably -- but it was a great design. My personal view is that the BBC micro was very well deisgned, both hardware and software, and that it was probably the best of the 8 bit home micros. As for the shortage of RAM, yes, particularly if you used MODE 0 (80 column mode) which took up 20K of the available 32K for video RAM. Later machines (B+, Master) got round this by having at least 64K of physical RAM and bankswitching part of it (the part used for video) with the ROMs. I was told by a chap at Acorn that the original intention was that application software would be run from sideways (bankswitched) ROMs (and thus wouldn't use much RAM). And it was expected that serious programmers would buy the 6502 second processor, giving at least 32K RAM for the user (and none taken up by video). Of course hindsight tells us this wasn't what most users did. -tony From lars at nocrew.org Fri Dec 23 11:42:21 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:42:21 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161223010135.C662318C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's message of "Thu, 22 Dec 2016 20:01:35 -0500 (EST)") References: <20161223010135.C662318C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <868tr6sfsy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > Well, you _can_ still experience ITS! It runs under a number of PDP-10 > simulators (and there used to be an 'open-access' ITS system on the > 'net at its.svensson.org, but alas it doesn't seem to be up any more I have it from the Swedish owner that it's still running, although not connected to the internet. There's also another system called UP that's running in Sweden. (What is it with Swedes and ITS?!?) From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 12:23:54 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 13:23:54 -0500 Subject: Holiday wishes Message-ID: ?All I want for Christmas is? a PC diagram for my Coleco ADAM; with apologies to Don Gardner(1946). Wishing all the best of the holiday season and may 2017 bring all your computing classic dreams come true. Happy computing, Murray :) From isking at uw.edu Fri Dec 23 12:25:03 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 10:25:03 -0800 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <868tr6sfsy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <20161223010135.C662318C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <868tr6sfsy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Well, you _can_ still experience ITS! It runs under a number of PDP-10 > > simulators (and there used to be an 'open-access' ITS system on the > > 'net at its.svensson.org, but alas it doesn't seem to be up any more > > I have it from the Swedish owner that it's still running, although not > connected to the internet. > > There's also another system called UP that's running in Sweden. (What > is it with Swedes and ITS?!?) > At one point, Rich Alderson at LCM had ITS running on a KS-10 (from MIT!), but I don't know what the current status might be. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 12:54:19 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 12:54:19 -0600 Subject: Holiday wishes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Happy Holidays, everyone! Here's a transcript from my copy of "The SHARE Songbook" for your singing pleasure: SONG TITLE ' Twelve Days of Christmas' MACRO TWELVE LCLA &VERSE .NEXTV AIF (&VERSE GT 11).END EJECT SPACE 10 &VERSE SETA &VERSE+1 DC OC' On the &SYSLIST(&VERSE) day of VX -S, ' * My salesman sold to me: AIF (&VERSE LE 11).NV12 * Twelve stagers staging, .NV12 AIF (&VERSE LE 10).NV11 * 'Leven disks a-seeking, .NV11 AIF (&VERSE LE 9).NV10 * Ten tapes a-turning, .NV10 AIF (&VERSE LE 8).NV9 * Nine remotes reading, .NV9 AIF (&VERSE LE 7).NV8 * Eight megs a-realing, .NV8 AIF (&VERSE LE 6).NV7 * Seven SPOOLs a-sharing, .NV7 AIF (&VERSE LE 5).NV6 * Six channels chaining, .NV6 AIF (&VERSE LE 4).NV5 * F-H-S-Ds; .NV5 AIF (&VERSE LE 3).NV4 * Four N-C-Ps, .NV4 AIF (&VERSE LE 2).NV3 AIF (&VERSE LE 4).NV3A * Three JES systems, .NV3A AIF (&VERSE GT 4).NV3 * Three new JES systems, .NV3 AIF (&VERSE LE 1).NV2 * Two C-P-Us, * And a DAT feature in a machine. .NV2 AIF (&VERSE GT 1).NEXTV * A DAT feature in a machine. AGO .NEXTV .END MEND TWELVE first,second,third,fourth,fifX th,sixth,seventh,eighth,ninth,X tenth,eleventh,twelfth END From lars at nocrew.org Fri Dec 23 12:57:59 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 19:57:59 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: (Ian S. King's message of "Fri, 23 Dec 2016 10:25:03 -0800") References: <20161223010135.C662318C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <868tr6sfsy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <864m1uscaw.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Ian S. King wrote: >> There's also another system called UP that's running in Sweden. >> (What is it with Swedes and ITS?!?) > > At one point, Rich Alderson at LCM had ITS running on a KS-10 (from > MIT!), but I don't know what the current status might be. Right, that would be MIT-AI. Of course it's only right and proper that it should keep running ITS. I have tried to keep track of all the ITS machines, and where they went. https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/181 From lars at nocrew.org Fri Dec 23 13:00:38 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 20:00:38 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <864m1uscaw.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff's message of "Fri, 23 Dec 2016 19:57:59 +0100") References: <20161223010135.C662318C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <868tr6sfsy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <864m1uscaw.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <86zijmqxm1.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > I have tried to keep track of all the ITS machines, and where they went. > https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/181 By the way, the Australian ITS called FU is a great mystery. I only found it mentioned in the ITS source code. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 23 09:30:00 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 10:30:00 -0500 Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3343b170-06e2-70f5-99ef-03e83bf78d4c@verizon.net> On 12/23/2016 07:18 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 23 December 2016 at 05:45, drlegendre . wrote: > urs was no exception, and I thank you for it. >> For one, I hadn't known that CP/M was written originally to the 8080.. I'd >> always assumed it originated on the Z80. > There are only 8080 instructions in CP/M, not a single Z80-specific > instruction. CP/M came about around 1974, the Z80 in 1976. > All the CP/M computers I used had a Z80, but that's just shows what > was popular at the time. > Yes, that was correct CP/M (DRI) was 8080 code that executed well on z80. However the BIOS could be entirely z80. And it was not uncommon to replace the CCP with CCPZ or ZCPR also using Z80 additional opcodes. Actually the original CP/M V1.3 and 1.4 were written in PLM for 8080. The V2 and 2.2 versions might have been in assembler but still 8080. 8080 compatability was important as there were 8080, 8085, NSC800, Z80, Z180, and Z280(late) all could run CP/M. And that also lead to a up scaling for 8088/86 and off shoots (early PCdos). The follow up P2DOS, Novados, ZRDOS, and Z-system, were indeed Z80 only. Those were coded by other to be compatible but improved. It was common to have a Darth Vaders lunchbox (Kaypro) running one of the CP/M hybrids or clones rather than pure CP/M. The modularity of CP/M allowed for that. Classic examples of that here are: *NS Microdisk system (5.25" SD floppy) in the 8080 Altair 8800 running CP/M 1.4 (lifeboat). *Netronics Exploror running CP/M 2 with MDS disk (765 floppy DSDD 3.5inch) with enhanced CCP and the core cpu being 8085. *NS* Horizon chassis (z80) running CP/M2 with MDS DD (stock NS version) *NS* Horizon chassis (z80) with mods running CP/M2 with my own BIOS and ZCPR, Teltek disk 32mb. also 8/5.25/3.5 floppies and smart DMA controllers for each. *CCS Z80 powered CP/M system with floppies (8/5.25, or 3.5) *SB180 running Z-System on Z180 with miniscribe 20mb disk and QD (DSDD) floppies. *Compupro (Z80) running CP/M2 with full Compupro disks (disk 1A, disk 3(32mb), M-drive) and a MPX-1 (8085) slave for IO. * AmproLB+ running ZRdos (Improved CPM 2) z80 with SCSI disk 45MB and DSDD 3.5" floppies. *Kaypro 4/84 running CP/M2 (With Handyman, Ramdisk, Advent turbodisk and Disk personality card running CP/M2 and ZCPR. *Z280 S100 homebrew card in spare cage (maybe IDS) with 4MB ram, Compupro MPX1 slave and assorted Compupro DMA disks (1A and 3). Runs CP/M core with my own multitasker and CCPZ and BIOS (in IAnd D space with user/system spaces). This is a sample of system I have some going back to day one that all ron some flavor of CP/M on the wide range of CPUs around in that era. They all can run all of the base aps but some products were Z80 (or 180 or 280 or NSC800) only. However many of the aps like MS Basic, Multiplan, DBASE, Vedit, and BDS-C could run on 8080 but knew how to use the z80. This is part of why it was not unusual to see some CPM systems still in commercial use in the early 90s. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Dec 23 10:00:05 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 11:00:05 -0500 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <6f9e3a68-7b58-e5e7-ece3-d287699d3798@verizon.net> On 12/23/2016 10:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 23 December 2016 at 10:59, Peter Corlett wrote: >> The "at least in the US" caveat is important :) > Absolutely. > >> Sinclair's Z80-based ZX Spectrum was outrageously successful in the UK. Every >> teenage bedroom seemed to have one by the late 1980s. The various 6502-based >> machines from Acorn and Commodore were relatively uncommon, and I've seen >> exactly one Apple II. > Pretty much, yes. The VIC-20 did OK, and the C-64 later, as the price > came down. However, back then, around '81-'82-'83, a working Spectrum > setup cost about a quarter of what a C-64 cost. It was the premium > games machine for the children of fairly rich folks. > > The BBC Micro, at another quarter or third over the price of a C-64 > but with a superb BASIC instead of CBM's abomination, was what the > unfortunate children of very serious, very wealthy people bought. Not > nearly so many games and not very good. > > Whereas the Apple ][ cost more than 2 BBC Micros -- as much as a small > car. And it wasn't all that good anyway, because by then, it was a 5YO > design. So only misguided millionaires owned them. > > Some unlucky kids got the Oric-1, a not-common but not-all-that-bad > 6502 machine, around '83 or '84. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/28/the_oric_1_is_30_years_old/?page=1 > > The US world was profoundly different from, well, the rest of the > planet. As usual. Americans got amazing-sounding fancy machines that > cost from as much as a car to as much as a house, with stuff like > *expansion slots* and *professional OSes* that could run business > software that [a] cost as much for a single copy as a well-specified > complete Sinclair setup with monitor and disk interface and drives, > and [b] was utterly uninteresting to schoolkids. > > Cheap British computer: ?100. Back then about 200$ US?? > Cheap American computer: $1000. Depends on when. The average Kim-1 here was 300$ Motorola 6800D1 was 289$ in 1977. The RCA cosmac (Quest kit) was still over 100$ at introduction (the board and by the parts your self would cost me 45$ quantity 2). NS*Horizon S100 with Z80, MDS, 2 floppies and 32K ram and DOS was about $2000 in 1978 and a year later about $1700 as the price of ram dropped. BY 1979 a Horizon with 32K and 2 drives was about $1500. The biggest thing was ram. In the 1975 time frame 4K was about 300$, by 1978 that would be 16K at maybe $300 and by 1980 64K was under $300 and going down fast. The other was mass storage where floppies at intro were 350-450 for the bare drive and a controller was a few hundred more. The first break was $599 for a complete NS* (Thats Northstar Computers inc) had the MDS drive and controller package with DOS and Extended basic and that was mid 1977. Two years later two drives in a box with power supply was about 199$. There were others pushing prices down too. it was the innovation, production volume curve at work. When the timex/sinclair with membrane keys got her eit was around 99$ and immensely unpopular the later chicklet keyboard version was better accepted. BY then people wanted printer and mass storage and that machine was 2-4 years behind the expectations curve. > Even though back then ?1=$2 or something, still, the American kit was > all ludicrously expensive and as rare as rocking-horse droppings > outside North America. I will not argue that, nothing was cheap but I also was buying raw chips and the prices for one or two were not always cheap. Boards especially two sided were not cheap either. The problem ooutside US for US products was import VAT. I was told back then a 2000$ NS system was easily 3000$ over there. Also getting systems here from there was equally hard(and expensive transport). Some of the beebs were interesting. Oddly it was similar in Canada for the same reason VAT/Import Duty. They spawned a few cool systems there too. However much of the US hardware was known and found there or they did S100 with local designs. Then again a few Canadian companies like Matrox made a good presence here in the USA. As did Epson who I consider one of the first japanse. I'm fortunate to have two views, that of the hobby small systems market, and that of being inside DEC during the 80s. The big vendor (DEC, DG, Prime, IBM) machine world was a bit different. If I can associate a factor in that its DEC internal had a world wide computer network such that I could talk to Palo Alto via Email just as easy as Valbonne or Galway and as fast even in the early 80s. That didn't happen till the 90s for those not inside a company network. The internet was a killer ap! Allison From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 10:06:33 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 10:06:33 -0600 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 Message-ID: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> Hi Folks, I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc. Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers? Thanks, Cory Heisterkamp From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 23 13:30:21 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 11:30:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: > I knew my last missive would provoke at least one or two interesting (if > not informative) responses. Yours was no exception, and I thank you for it. not informative responses are inevitable > For one, I hadn't known that CP/M was written originally to the 8080.. I'd > always assumed it originated on the Z80. And I don't doubt that RS / TRS-80 > held a large share (until 1982 or so..) of the home computer market. CP/M was 8080, and was intended for 8080/8085/Z80. But, as Allison pointed out, there was nothing stopping somebody from writing software that would run on CP/M that might require a Z80. Or write the BIOS for the computer as Z80. Therefore, a Z80 machine would be optimal, and if you wrote software to be sold into the CP/M world, it had to run on 8080, AND, if it made any BIOS calls, survive a BIOS that could be 8080, 8085, or Z80. > At the time, I was in my (almost) young teens - and at least in the circles > I traveled, the TRS-80 / Osborne and Kaypro were viewed as boring, stodgy > machines without any redeeming entertainment qualities - no color graphics, > no sprites, poor or nearly non-existent audio, expensive joysticks and so > on. Boring, certainly. Not sure if it was sophisticated enough to be stodgy. > The ability of the machines to serve multiple roles - for both 'serious' > work and video gaming / music - was a huge selling point in the early days. > This is one of the reasons that the C64 was so massively successful - it > pretty much had something for everyone, as the saying goes. That, and the > price of the base machine was just amazingly low for the time. Ditto for > the VIC-20. Ah! Therein lies the rub. The TRS-80 wasn't any good for some things. As a primarily entertainment machine, it was rubbish. No color, no sound, no joysticks, grossly inadequate graphics. (some of which could be worked around) If you were looking for an games/entertainment machine, it would be outside of the consideration set. Of the set of people looking for a games/entertainment machine, "NOBODY has one." Best game on it was "Adventure". Best graphics was Lim's "Android Nim" On the other side of the market, the TRS-80 did not have 80x24 text, and had a memory map that was incompatible with CP/M. Parasitic Engineering (Howard Fullmer!) and Omikron, both made [somewhat expensive] sandwich boards for the TRS-80 to change that memory map, and to add 8" SSSD drive support. Of the original "Big three" (Radio Shack, Apple, Commodore), who came first, Apple was the only one with entertainment capabilities, but they priced it out of your market. Later, the Commodore Vic-20 and C64 were aimed at your segment of the market, and priced appropriately. Radio Shack's later "Color Computer" (6809!) was far more appropriate, but it also suffered some crippling design decision errors. > the very early 1980s, when I was about 15, my father decided to buy a > home computer. (Before that, he had a TI Silent 700 that dialed up to a > Univac mainframe.) I remember him doing hours of research comparing the > Apple II, the TRS-80, the Commodore PET, and probably some of the S-100 > machines. He eventually chose the Heathkit H89. I^@^Yll have to ask him > exactly why, but I know that he^@^Ys always liked good-quality tools, > and the combination of the Heathkit design, the Z80 CPU, and CP/M seemed > like the best combination of tools at the time. Apple II, TRS-80, and Commodore PET didn't have 80x24 screen text! THAT was why my cousin rejected them and went with a Heathkit. If you want to be able to use it as a terminal, . . . Later, add-on cards for Apple2 came out for 80 column. TRS-80 didn't get 80x24 text until the Model 4 (which is what the Model 3 should have been) (Model 2/12/16 was never intended to be a "Home" computer, and was marketed for small business) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri Dec 23 13:34:46 2016 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 11:34:46 -0800 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <000a01d25d53$9ede6750$dc9b35f0$@comcast.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Corlett Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 2:59 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? >The "at least in the US" caveat is important :) > >Sinclair's Z80-based ZX Spectrum was outrageously successful in the UK. Every teenage bedroom seemed to have one by the late 1980s. The various 6502-based machines from Acorn and >Commodore were relatively uncommon, and I've seen exactly one Apple II. > >People who know Uncle Clive's unwillingness to spend a penny more than he has to on bulding computers may wonder why they selected the relatively expensive >Z80 over the 6502, but it was because they managed to trick the Z80's address-fetcting and instruction decoding cycle into generating video on the >ZX80 and ZX81, and thus saved more money elsewhere. It wasn't until the Spectrum that they bothered with DMA like proper computers, and then didn't >*need* to stick with the Z80, but chose to keep it anyway. I was in London in 1981 and happened upon a computer faire. Here is a write-up published in Seattle's Northwest Computer Society newsletter. It is an American's view of the English computer scene. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/LondonComputerFaire/Newsletter.htm Photos http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/LondonComputerFaire/Photos.htm Michael Holley From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 13:44:48 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 19:44:48 +0000 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: <000a01d25d53$9ede6750$dc9b35f0$@comcast.net> References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> <000a01d25d53$9ede6750$dc9b35f0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 23 December 2016 at 19:34, Michael Holley wrote: > I was in London in 1981 and happened upon a computer faire. Here is a > write-up published in Seattle's Northwest Computer Society newsletter. It is > an American's view of the English computer scene. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/LondonComputerFaire/Newsletter.htm > > Photos > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/LondonComputerFaire/Photos.htm Very interesting -- thanks for that! I'm intrigued that although you prefix notate dollars ($300), you postfix-notate pounds (125?), when Brits prefix too. Any particular reason? I suspect that that was before the home computer gaming boom, and 2-3y later things would look rather different. As a student (1985-1988) I attended launches of the CBM Amiga and Apple ][GS -- I don't recall exactly when -- but they were vastly out of my price range. In '85 I was still using a ZX Spectrum with ZX Microdrives; by '87 or '88 I'd managed to get a floppy interface and a single 5?" drive (as the media were much cheaper than the new 3?" diskettes, which were 5?-10? the price). So even after 16-bit machines started to appear, even fairly serious hobbyists such as myself continued to use 8-bits & other old-fashioned tech, as they were massively cheaper. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 13:56:40 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 19:56:40 +0000 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: <6f9e3a68-7b58-e5e7-ece3-d287699d3798@verizon.net> References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> <6f9e3a68-7b58-e5e7-ece3-d287699d3798@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 23 December 2016 at 16:00, allison wrote: > When the timex/sinclair with membrane keys got her eit was around 99$ > and immensely unpopular the later chicklet keyboard version was better > accepted. > BY then people wanted printer and mass storage and that machine was 2-4 > years > behind the expectations curve. I think that is the best example of what I'm talking about in your comment. I've checked... The Apple ][ was $1298 in 1977. The Apple ][E was ?1390 in 1983. The price didn't drop much, but the spec improved instead. That was, from the prices in Mike's computer fair report, ITRO ?650-?700. The Sinclair ZX-80, ZX-81 and ZX Spectrum were all ITRO ?100 or so when new, all within the time period between those 2 US models. And yet, in the occasional US computer magazine I'd see, the Apple machines were praised as low-cost personal computers compared to business machines, IIRC and AIUI. OK, so my ?100/$1000 comparison was a bit off, but rather than a delta of 10? we are looking at one of 6-7?. So I wasn't far off! These were machines for non-techies to play with, notably, soon, for kids to play games on. The pre-Apple-II machines, the era of DIY things with discrete boards, no graphics, no sound, were both of little interest to non-specialists (or those who didn't want to be specialists) or kids, AFAICT. I could be wrong. They weren't of much interest to _me_ at 10YO or so, I can attest that. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 13:58:37 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 19:58:37 +0000 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> <6f9e3a68-7b58-e5e7-ece3-d287699d3798@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 23 December 2016 at 19:56, Liam Proven wrote: > The Apple ][E was > ?1390 in 1983 Sorry -- wrong currency sign. $1390. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 23 14:56:09 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 15:56:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161223205609.121F818C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff (What is it with Swedes and ITS?!?) They're definitely seriously crazy. I myself attribute it to the weather. :-) You probably already know this, but I doubt everyone does, but shortly after MIT-MC (the KL ITS) was shut down, a bunch of (crazy - redundant, I know :-) Swedes showed up at MIT with a shipping container (perhaps under the mistaken impression that Cambridge was Lindisfarne ;-), and loaded the KL into it, along with, IIRC, one of the KA ITS machines - possibly AI? They then shipped the whole thing back to Sweden. ISTR that they actually got the KL to work, but I don't know what the current status of the whole works is. (Me, if I'd taken a KA, I would have taken a second one for spares! The parts in that thing are _seriously_ obscure. :-) Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 23 15:10:39 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 21:10:39 +0000 Subject: BBC Micro - was Re: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23/12/2016 17:00, "Liam Proven" wrote: >> The Acornsoft games were very high quality (hard to distinguish from their >> arcade inspirations). >> >> But I was mostly interested in programming, so I loved our BBC Micro Model B >> to bits. A far superior machine to the Apple and Commodores. > > I agree that it was a far superior machine. It had its limitations -- > shortage of RAM, notably -- but it was a great design. > > I'll have to take your word for it on the arcade games. TBH I was just > repeating what I've heard -- which was wrong of me. :-( Sorry... Acornsoft Planetoid *IS* Defender, looks and plays the same as the Williams original. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From lars at nocrew.org Fri Dec 23 16:03:41 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 23:03:41 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161223205609.121F818C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's message of "Fri, 23 Dec 2016 15:56:09 -0500 (EST)") References: <20161223205609.121F818C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86shpeqp4y.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > Swedes showed up at MIT with a shipping container (perhaps under the > mistaken impression that Cambridge was Lindisfarne ;-), and loaded the > KL into it, along with, IIRC, one of the KA ITS machines - possibly > AI? I have this on AI: > the semi-original AI (that is, the KA-10 rather than the PDP-6) was > flushed 3 years ago. the hardware was given to a bunch of hackers from > Concourse (an MIT alternative undergrad program) -- after it walked > across the street to Bldg. 20, the KA still ran, but had no memory, > since its latest memory incarnation was all modified LispM Mem boards, > which were given to needy Lispms when the Lab flushed the machine. i > think the Concourse hackers have since had access to more of these Mem > boards, but they have not (alas!) managed to bring the KA up in > full-fledged fashion. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 17:31:06 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 16:31:06 -0700 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 27, 2016 8:10 AM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > IRMA card Just saw a photo of the inside of an AppleLine, and it also used 8X305. I wonder whether Apple might have licensed the IRMA design. From guy at cuillin.org.uk Fri Dec 23 18:15:07 2016 From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 00:15:07 +0000 Subject: BBC Micro - was Re: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: and Snapper *IS* Pac Man On 23 December 2016 at 21:10, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 23/12/2016 17:00, "Liam Proven" wrote: > > >> The Acornsoft games were very high quality (hard to distinguish from > their > >> arcade inspirations). > >> > >> But I was mostly interested in programming, so I loved our BBC Micro > Model B > >> to bits. A far superior machine to the Apple and Commodores. > > > > I agree that it was a far superior machine. It had its limitations -- > > shortage of RAM, notably -- but it was a great design. > > > > I'll have to take your word for it on the arcade games. TBH I was just > > repeating what I've heard -- which was wrong of me. :-( Sorry... > > Acornsoft Planetoid *IS* Defender, looks and plays the same as the Williams > original. > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > -- 4.4 > 5.4 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 23 18:52:07 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 00:52:07 +0000 Subject: ICL7611 op-amp (was: Motorola MC14081B) Message-ID: Hi folks, Thanks for all the help so far, I've moved on quite a way but I still haven't managed to get my head around op-amps other than the basics. If I may trouble your experienced heads with a small circuit diagram: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelStartupCircuit.jpg This is the full circuit of all the things I've been posting recently, traced and drawn out as completely as I can manage. All the resistors and diodes have been tested out of circuit and are OK and I've just realised 3 of the resistors are labelled wrongly. R409 is 47k, R415 and R391 are 100k. IN- at the op-amp is 1.2V from the LM385ZB-1.2 which has pins 2/3 tied together. IN+ is 1.3V. V+ is 5.3V. The purple trace is RESET for the 8085, or should be. Initially the LM385Z had rotted away because of battery leakage so I was experimenting with diodes in series to try and get the IN- voltage down to 1.2V, and with two IN4148s (0.9V) the whole circuit sprang into life and I got RESET at the 8085. For two seconds, then it would cycle for two seconds. This maybe expected behaviour, I don't know. 3 diodes gave me 1.3V which produced nothing at the op-amp output, probably because there was no difference between IN+ and IN-? On a whim I managed to solder new legs onto the old LM385Z and it works, giving 1.2V at IN-, but the output is still only 0.2V. I don't mind admitting I'm stumped :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 23 19:41:50 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 17:41:50 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4496283d-5e56-af66-64ff-7461805eed56@bitsavers.org> likely, that's why I didn't go after the one that was just on eBay where did you see the picture? I wonder if it's the same as the irmaprint I bought On 12/23/16 3:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Nov 27, 2016 8:10 AM, "Al Kossow" wrote: >> IRMA card > > Just saw a photo of the inside of an AppleLine, and it also used 8X305. I > wonder whether Apple might have licensed the IRMA design. > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Dec 23 21:48:07 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 19:48:07 -0800 Subject: ICL7611 op-amp (was: Motorola MC14081B) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0B434B-8825-4DE9-8C70-E87F363E305F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Dec-23, at 4:52 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Thanks for all the help so far, I've moved on quite a way but I still > haven't managed to get my head around op-amps other than the basics. If I > may trouble your experienced heads with a small circuit diagram: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelStartupCircuit.jpg > > This is the full circuit of all the things I've been posting recently, > traced and drawn out as completely as I can manage. All the resistors and > diodes have been tested out of circuit and are OK and I've just realised 3 > of the resistors are labelled wrongly. R409 is 47k, R415 and R391 are 100k. > > IN- at the op-amp is 1.2V from the LM385ZB-1.2 which has pins 2/3 tied > together. IN+ is 1.3V. V+ is 5.3V. The purple trace is RESET for the 8085, > or should be. > > Initially the LM385Z had rotted away because of battery leakage so I was > experimenting with diodes in series to try and get the IN- voltage down to > 1.2V, and with two IN4148s (0.9V) the whole circuit sprang into life and I > got RESET at the 8085. For two seconds, then it would cycle for two seconds. > This maybe expected behaviour, I don't know. > > 3 diodes gave me 1.3V which produced nothing at the op-amp output, probably > because there was no difference between IN+ and IN-? > > On a whim I managed to solder new legs onto the old LM385Z and it works, > giving 1.2V at IN-, but the output is still only 0.2V. > > I don't mind admitting I'm stumped :) The op amp is configured as a schmitt trigger or comparator with hysteresis: There is no negative feedback so it is operating at full gain and functions like a comparator. However there is positive feedback via R412 (*1), this adds hysteresis to the trip point(s). (Brief hackneyed, not rigorous, theory of op: As the input differential varies past the trip point, the output pulls the + input further above or below the point at which it just tripped, so the inputs now have to 'overcome' a greater differential to trip as the input differential varies in the opposite direction.) One input to the (now) comparator is the 1.2V from V407 regulated down from some power rail. The other input is the ~ 1/4 voltage divider down from +5V formed by R398 & R406 (netting 1.34V @ 5V). It appears the idea is that as the +5 supply ramps up at power-on the comparator trip (and hence release of reset) is delayed till the +5 reaches something around +4.5V. The ICL7611 is, I expect, a very-low-power (Intersil's niche) op amp. Together with the CMOS 4081 the circuit appears tailored for low-power operation. Is it supplied by the battery? It may require the battery presence for stable supply at time of power-up to get reliable reset operation from this power-on-reset circuit. The diode-resistor pairs at the 4081 AND gate inputs turn the AND gates into 'asymmetric edge delay gates': the resistor together with some capacitance delays the switching of the gate for an edge of one direction, while the diode shorts the delay for an edge of the other direction. If there is no cap at the input, they must be relying on the gate capacitance of the CMOS inputs, making for a pretty short delay. *1: Are you sure that's a 220? resistor? It's awfully small compared to the impedance of the voltage divider feeding it. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 22:22:56 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 21:22:56 -0700 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: <4496283d-5e56-af66-64ff-7461805eed56@bitsavers.org> References: <4496283d-5e56-af66-64ff-7461805eed56@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: https://twitter.com/yesterbits/status/812415257616457728 From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 22:25:12 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 21:25:12 -0700 Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Of the original "Big three" (Radio Shack, Apple, Commodore), who came > first, Apple was the only one with entertainment capabilities, but they > priced it out of your market. > I'm not sure about that. My friends and I entertained ourselves quite a lot with the Commodore PET 2001. :-) From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 22:34:41 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 20:34:41 -0800 Subject: ICL7611 op-amp (was: Motorola MC14081B) In-Reply-To: <8D0B434B-8825-4DE9-8C70-E87F363E305F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <8D0B434B-8825-4DE9-8C70-E87F363E305F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 7:48 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > The op amp is configured as a schmitt trigger or comparator with hysteresis: > There is no negative feedback so it is operating at full gain and functions like a comparator. > However there is positive feedback via R412 (*1), this adds hysteresis to the trip point(s). > (Brief hackneyed, not rigorous, theory of op: As the input differential varies past the trip point, the output pulls the + input > further above or below the point at which it just tripped, so the inputs now have to 'overcome' a greater differential > to trip as the input differential varies in the opposite direction.) > A recent EEVblog video has some whiteboard explanation of using positive feedback for hysteresis if anyone is curious... EEVblog #941 - Schmitt Trigger Tutorial https://youtu.be/Ht48vv0rQYk?t=13m43s From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 23 22:42:46 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 04:42:46 +0000 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: <4496283d-5e56-af66-64ff-7461805eed56@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: Many early DSP applications were based on shift and add, rather than multiplying. Not having a multiplier is not necessarily a problem. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 8:22:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? https://twitter.com/yesterbits/status/812415257616457728 From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 13:54:02 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 14:54:02 -0500 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> Message-ID: take a ski trip while you're there. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Dec 23, 2016 2:46 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > > > I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' > > condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and > > will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are > > there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe > > travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but > > haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc. > > > > Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers? > > > > Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada? > > Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing. There > are, IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should > probably be removed and shipped separately. Nothing like getting a box > o' broken glass to make life interesting. > > --Chuck > From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Dec 23 13:57:38 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 11:57:38 -0800 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> Message-ID: I 2nd what Chuck recommended, if that's not an option find someone you 100% trust. Anything that shock would hurt, have it removed, then one could find a electronic equipment mover. Most of the big moving van companies provide that service. -pete On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > > > I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' > > condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and > > will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are > > there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe > > travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but > > haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc. > > > > Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers? > > > > Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada? > > Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing. There > are, IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should > probably be removed and shipped separately. Nothing like getting a box > o' broken glass to make life interesting. > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 23 14:27:27 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 12:27:27 -0800 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7a684769-0751-551f-3112-f2ac1169f7b6@sydex.com> One more thought. IIRC, there's quite a large motor that's used for the drum (mounted just below the drum). That should be removed and shipped separately also. I cannot envision the carnage should that big hunk of iron break loose during shipping. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 23 15:00:52 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 16:00:52 -0500 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <7a684769-0751-551f-3112-f2ac1169f7b6@sydex.com> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <7a684769-0751-551f-3112-f2ac1169f7b6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <91803084-2BE1-4609-BEF2-430E61EA3A31@comcast.net> > On Dec 23, 2016, at 3:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > One more thought. > > IIRC, there's quite a large motor that's used for the drum (mounted just > below the drum). That should be removed and shipped separately also. > I cannot envision the carnage should that big hunk of iron break loose > during shipping. That sounds good if the motor spindle bearings aren't also positioning the drum spindle. The equivalent is generally true for fixed head disks, I don't know what drums do. Obviously if it's belt driven, or if the motor is mounted in flexible brackets, then that isn't an issue. This goes back to the earlier discussion about not dismantling parts that are involved in precision alignment. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 23 15:06:53 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 14:06:53 -0700 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <7a684769-0751-551f-3112-f2ac1169f7b6@sydex.com> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <7a684769-0751-551f-3112-f2ac1169f7b6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <598e52cb-f894-855b-6271-68ee19bf6d01@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/23/2016 1:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One more thought. > > IIRC, there's quite a large motor that's used for the drum (mounted just > below the drum). That should be removed and shipped separately also. > I cannot envision the carnage should that big hunk of iron break loose > during shipping. > > --Chuck Check the docs, for how to unpack and setup your new ..., then just reverse that. I see several wooden crates in your future. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 23 13:32:43 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 11:32:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: <4b4aa3af-b876-db4c-c1f8-741a009752e6@verizon.net> References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <4b4aa3af-b876-db4c-c1f8-741a009752e6@verizon.net> Message-ID: >> NO source is completely reliable. On Fri, 23 Dec 2016, allison wrote: > Most number and data I see to day in the popular media is just plain wrong. particularly on anything like this. Surely, there must have been some [relatively] objective compilations of the sales data? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 23 13:45:46 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 11:45:46 -0800 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' > condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and > will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are > there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe > travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but > haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc. > > Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers? > Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada? Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing. There are, IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should probably be removed and shipped separately. Nothing like getting a box o' broken glass to make life interesting. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Dec 23 15:18:06 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 10:18:06 +1300 Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <4b4aa3af-b876-db4c-c1f8-741a009752e6@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 24/12/2016 8:32 AM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: NO source is completely reliable. >> > On Fri, 23 Dec 2016, allison wrote: Most number and data I see to day in the popular media is just plain wrong. > particularly on anything like this. Surely, there must have been some [relatively] objective compilations of the sales data? Interesting discussion. Of course sales was only part-reflective of price point and technical capability/suitabily for a particular market segment. There was also marketing and distribution. Get all four right and sales boom. Commodore seems to have excelled at all four by the time the C64 came along. Personally I never saw the C64 as one that was suitable for serious work however. When it came out I was using my own disk based TRS80 M1 clone (System 80) for writing my graduate thesis. I was also president for a local club so kept membership records. I'd also computerised our home finances and used to write my own statistic programs for the research work I was doing. The System 80 was great for these non-gaming productivity things. I had the opportunity to try the C64 when it came out. The high set keyboard. ..the mushy keys....the slow disk drive....the 40 column screen....the limited BASIC..the lack of a decent OS..the weird (to me) character set. I did not feel envious at all and would not have swapped my machine for a C64 given what I was doing. If I was a kid or gamer however the C64 would have won hands down! In the early 1980s period it was only the Apple II line that were true general purpose machines IMO. They could serve small business, the home professional (the kind of stuff I was doing ) and the kids/gamers. The flexibility was due to those slots and the open architecture. You paid through the nose for Apples though, at least here in NZ. One could argue that the BBC and Atari 800 line had similar general purpose capability but their pricing and market positioning kept them out of the small business market. Terry (Tez) From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 18:14:22 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:14:22 -0600 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> On Dec 23, 2016, at 1:57 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > I 2nd what Chuck recommended, if that's not an option find someone you 100% > trust. Anything that shock would hurt, have it removed, then one could find > a electronic equipment mover. Most of the big moving van companies provide > that service. > > -pete > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' >>> condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and >>> will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are >>> there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe >>> travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but >>> haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc. >>> >>> Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers? >>> >> >> Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada? >> >> Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing. There >> are, IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should >> probably be removed and shipped separately. Nothing like getting a box >> o' broken glass to make life interesting. >> >> --Chuck >> >> Well, I think you guys have convinced me that a trip is in order. Better safe than sorry with a piece of equipment like this. Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its head on classiccmp the past few days. -C From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 23 23:02:14 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 21:02:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Commodore's Z80 in the 128 was due to unnecessary fear that they might lose > market share to CP/M, when IBM should have been their big worry. > I don't know all of the details of the ST/Amiga technology swap, but BOTH > were too late, if the primary goal was competing with IBM. > That might be Commodore marketing - Bil Herd said that he threw the Z-80 into the design essentially because he could. :) He's done a few talks on how the C-128 came about. It's pretty interesting. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 23 23:29:01 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 21:29:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: from geneb at "Dec 23, 16 09:02:14 pm" Message-ID: <201612240529.uBO5T1In6815860@floodgap.com> > > Commodore's Z80 in the 128 was due to unnecessary fear that they might lose > > market share to CP/M, when IBM should have been their big worry. > > I don't know all of the details of the ST/Amiga technology swap, but BOTH > > were too late, if the primary goal was competing with IBM. > > That might be Commodore marketing - Bil Herd said that he threw the Z-80 > into the design essentially because he could. :) He's done a few talks on > how the C-128 came about. It's pretty interesting. It also saved the 100% compatibility problem (in this case, with Commodore's CP/M cartridge by designing it onto the board, and with Commodore Magic Voice, which fouled banking by altering the memory configuration lines in realtime: the 8502 would crash, but the Z80's activity would not be detected and the C= key could be checked to force a C64 memory map). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: You learn from your mistakes. Today will be very educational. ----- From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 24 06:07:25 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 12:07:25 +0000 Subject: ICL7611 op-amp (was: Motorola MC14081B) In-Reply-To: <8D0B434B-8825-4DE9-8C70-E87F363E305F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 24/12/2016 03:48, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: >> On a whim I managed to solder new legs onto the old LM385Z and it works, >> giving 1.2V at IN-, but the output is still only 0.2V. >> >> I don't mind admitting I'm stumped :) > > > The op amp is configured as a schmitt trigger or comparator with hysteresis: > There is no negative feedback so it is operating at full gain and functions > like a comparator. > However there is positive feedback via R412 (*1), this adds hysteresis to the > trip point(s). > (Brief hackneyed, not rigorous, theory of op: As the input differential varies > past the trip point, the output pulls the + input > further above or below the point at which it just tripped, so the inputs now > have to 'overcome' a greater differential > to trip as the input differential varies in the opposite direction.) OK, that explanation helps a bit. My brain still has trouble 'slowing down' how these components work, like when I first dropped from 3GL programming to assembly. Fortunately there are a lot of tutorials out there. > One input to the (now) comparator is the 1.2V from V407 regulated down from > some power rail. > The other input is the ~ 1/4 voltage divider down from +5V formed by R398 & > R406 (netting 1.34V @ 5V). > > It appears the idea is that as the +5 supply ramps up at power-on the > comparator trip (and hence release of reset) is delayed till the +5 reaches > something around +4.5V. That's what I figured yesterday which is why I was surprised that reinstating the LM385Z didn't make it all spring into life. > The ICL7611 is, I expect, a very-low-power (Intersil's niche) op amp. Together > with the CMOS 4081 the circuit appears tailored for low-power operation. > Is it supplied by the battery? > It may require the battery presence for stable supply at time of power-up to > get reliable reset operation from this power-on-reset circuit. That's a very good point so now I'm going to have to scrabble around to find the battery to find out what voltage it was since I removed it ages ago and may have recycled it. I don't recall any markings on it though, it looked like a 'normal' 3 terminal NiCAD wrapped in blue plastic. I did take hi-res pictures of it however. The 5V input at R395 does head off towards the battery location before it hits the resistor so I'll trace that out too. > The diode-resistor pairs at the 4081 AND gate inputs turn the AND gates into > 'asymmetric edge delay gates': the resistor together with some capacitance > delays the switching of the gate for an edge of one direction, while the diode > shorts the delay for an edge of the other direction. Gotcha, I wondered why the diode was there. > If there is no cap at the input, they must be relying on the gate capacitance > of the CMOS inputs, making for a pretty short delay. > > *1: Are you sure that's a 220? resistor? It's awfully small compared to the > impedance of the voltage divider feeding it. My bad, it's a 1.4Mohm and tests ok. Thanks! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 24 06:09:11 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 12:09:11 +0000 Subject: ICL7611 op-amp (was: Motorola MC14081B) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 24/12/2016 04:34, "Glen Slick" wrote: > On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 7:48 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> The op amp is configured as a schmitt trigger or comparator with hysteresis: >> There is no negative feedback so it is operating at full gain and >> functions like a comparator. >> However there is positive feedback via R412 (*1), this adds >> hysteresis to the trip point(s). >> (Brief hackneyed, not rigorous, theory of op: As the input >> differential varies past the trip point, the output pulls the + input >> further above or below the point at which it just tripped, so the >> inputs now have to 'overcome' a greater differential >> to trip as the input differential varies in the opposite direction.) >> > > A recent EEVblog video has some whiteboard explanation of using > positive feedback for hysteresis if anyone is curious... > > EEVblog #941 - Schmitt Trigger Tutorial > https://youtu.be/Ht48vv0rQYk?t=13m43s Ah cool, I was watching some of Dave's tutorials yesterday but in one of them he lost me completely towards the end, talking about Virtual Ground on op-amps. Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 07:38:51 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 13:38:51 -0000 Subject: ICL7611 op-amp (was: Motorola MC14081B) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015f01d25deb$10319bb0$3094d310$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 24 December 2016 12:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: ICL7611 op-amp (was: Motorola MC14081B) > > On 24/12/2016 04:34, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 7:48 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> > >> The op amp is configured as a schmitt trigger or comparator with > hysteresis: > >> There is no negative feedback so it is operating at full gain > >> and functions like a comparator. > >> However there is positive feedback via R412 (*1), this adds > >> hysteresis to the trip point(s). > >> (Brief hackneyed, not rigorous, theory of op: As the input > >> differential varies past the trip point, the output pulls the + input > >> further above or below the point at which it just tripped, so > >> the inputs now have to 'overcome' a greater differential > >> to trip as the input differential varies in the opposite > >> direction.) > >> > > > > A recent EEVblog video has some whiteboard explanation of using > > positive feedback for hysteresis if anyone is curious... > > > > EEVblog #941 - Schmitt Trigger Tutorial > > https://youtu.be/Ht48vv0rQYk?t=13m43s > > Ah cool, I was watching some of Dave's tutorials yesterday but in one of > them he lost me completely towards the end, talking about Virtual Ground > on op-amps. That's how op-amps are typically used in linear mode. If you 1. Have a split rail PSU 2. Ground the +ve input 3. Connect the output back to the inverting input, You get a unity gain circuit. Add resistors and you can adjust the gain as required. Dave > > Cheers, > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 05:35:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 06:35:23 -0500 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Well, I think you guys have convinced me that a trip is in order. Better safe than sorry with a piece of equipment like this. > > Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its head on classiccmp the past few days. -C Believe me, I for one was interested, and I was in contact with the seller. The expense and effort, as much as I'd love to work on restoring this, was too great to pull the trigger. What are you going to do with this? I did not notice if a Flexowriter was included. Here are my notes on the LGP 30 http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=596 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 07:57:18 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 13:57:18 +0000 Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 24 December 2016 at 05:02, geneb wrote: >> Commodore's Z80 in the 128 was due to unnecessary fear that they might >> lose market share to CP/M, when IBM should have been their big worry. >> I don't know all of the details of the ST/Amiga technology swap, but BOTH >> were too late, if the primary goal was competing with IBM. >> > That might be Commodore marketing - Bil Herd said that he threw the Z-80 > into the design essentially because he could. :) He's done a few talks on > how the C-128 came about. It's pretty interesting. Seconded. I don't think CBM was scared of CP/M at all. I think it maybe thought it was a handy extra. Some of the story is here: https://hackaday.com/2013/12/09/guest-post-the-real-story-of-hacking-together-the-commodore-c128/ I am somewhat irritated by Bil Herd's claim that it was the last 8-bit computer. The MSX TurboR was arguably the greatest Z80 home computer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX#MSX_turboR It came out in 1990: https://www.msx.org/wiki/MSX_Turbo_R But its R800 CPU is arguably 16-bit although MSX-DOS doesn't use that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R800_(CPU) It is in part based on the Z800: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_Z800 The SAM Coup? was pure Z80 machine, a lovely British design, a much-enhanced ZX Spectrum 48, and it came out in 1989 and went on sale in 1990: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAM_Coup%C3%A9 The Acorn BBC Master wasn't all-new but neither was the C128. The Master was an elegant upgrade to the BBC Micro, and was released in 1986: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Master I'm sure there are many more. So no, Herd is definitely wrong. The C128 was _not_ the last new 8-bit computer. It wasn't even the last new Commodore 8-bit computer -- the C65 was arguably that (and a more logical successor to the C64, IMHO). -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 08:57:59 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 10:57:59 -0400 Subject: Clone of 98228A ROM for 9825T information posted. In-Reply-To: <1482590941703591992.27540@groups.io> References: <1482590941703591992.27540@groups.io> Message-ID: <32e1835f-691f-b06c-b451-709da046ff32@gmail.com> I have posted a package of information and ROM images from my project to clone the 98228A ROM on the VintHPcom group at groups.io. Progress on laying out a PCB is going slowly as I have little experience and the learning curve for using Kicad to lay out a board seems pretty steep. Paul. Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the VintHPcom at groups.io group. *File:* 98228A.zip *Uploaded By:* Paul Berger *Description:* Package with information and ROM images from my project to clone the rare 98228A ROM that supports both 9885 and 9895 8" diskette drives. You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.io/g/VintHPcom/files/HP9825/98228A.zip Cheers, The Groups.io Team _._,_._,_ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Dec 24 09:10:45 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 16:10:45 +0100 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20161224151044.GA7846@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 04:14:28AM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 3:59 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: >> People who know Uncle Clive's unwillingness to spend a penny more than he >> has to on bulding computers may wonder why they selected the relatively >> expensive Z80 over the 6502, but it was because they managed to trick the >> Z80's address-fetcting and instruction decoding cycle into generating video >> on the ZX80 and ZX81, and thus saved more money elsewhere. > The same trick works perfectly well with a 6502, and in fact was invented by > Don Lancaster using a 6502 years before the ZX80 was designed. That doesn't > really explain the choice of the Z80. Interesting. I was of the understanding that the Z80 video hack didn't work on the 6502 due to the latter being slightly pipelined and so the instruction fetch cycle couldn't be abused in the same way. Perhaps Sinclair couldn't get it to work on some dodgy 6502s that fell off the back of a lorry. > Also, by the time the ZX80 was introduced, both the Z80 and 6502 were > basically dirt cheap. Any premium price the Z80 had once commanded had long > since evaporated. If there was nothing in it, then it's a mystery why the Z80 was selected. However, Sinclair wasn't exactly one for making rational design decisions based on technical merit or industry best practice... From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 24 09:43:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 07:43:02 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: <4496283d-5e56-af66-64ff-7461805eed56@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8052e42a-b6c0-97db-a269-650e47f6f069@bitsavers.org> see if he'll dump the firmware. it's identical to the DCA IRMAprint On 12/23/16 8:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > https://twitter.com/yesterbits/status/812415257616457728 > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Dec 24 09:41:26 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 07:41:26 -0800 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 Message-ID: -------- Original message -------- From: william degnan Date: 2016-12-24 3:35 AM (GMT-08:00) To: cctech Subject: Re: Transporting an LGP-30 > Well, I think you guys have convinced me that a trip is in order. Better safe than sorry with a piece of equipment like this. > > Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its head on classiccmp the past few days. -C Believe me, I for one was interested, and I was in contact with the seller.?? The expense and effort, as much as >I'd love to work on restoring >this, was too great to pull the trigger. I thought about it also. ?I would have liked to have brought it back to BC and kept it here in Canada. ?But I began to wonder how it had ended up with these guys and talking to them I had my doubts about the amount of care taken in moving it around. ?And I assumed freight would be insane anyway. ? From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Dec 24 09:41:26 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 07:41:26 -0800 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 Message-ID: -------- Original message -------- From: william degnan Date: 2016-12-24 3:35 AM (GMT-08:00) To: cctech Subject: Re: Transporting an LGP-30 > Well, I think you guys have convinced me that a trip is in order. Better safe than sorry with a piece of equipment like this. > > Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its head on classiccmp the past few days. -C Believe me, I for one was interested, and I was in contact with the seller.?? The expense and effort, as much as >I'd love to work on restoring >this, was too great to pull the trigger. I thought about it also. ?I would have liked to have brought it back to BC and kept it here in Canada. ?But I began to wonder how it had ended up with these guys and talking to them I had my doubts about the amount of care taken in moving it around. ?And I assumed freight would be insane anyway. ? From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 24 09:46:59 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 07:46:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: <201612240529.uBO5T1In6815860@floodgap.com> References: <201612240529.uBO5T1In6815860@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Dec 2016, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Commodore's Z80 in the 128 was due to unnecessary fear that they might lose >>> market share to CP/M, when IBM should have been their big worry. >>> I don't know all of the details of the ST/Amiga technology swap, but BOTH >>> were too late, if the primary goal was competing with IBM. >> >> That might be Commodore marketing - Bil Herd said that he threw the Z-80 >> into the design essentially because he could. :) He's done a few talks on >> how the C-128 came about. It's pretty interesting. > > It also saved the 100% compatibility problem (in this case, with Commodore's > CP/M cartridge by designing it onto the board, and with Commodore Magic Voice, > which fouled banking by altering the memory configuration lines in realtime: > the 8502 would crash, but the Z80's activity would not be detected and the > C= key could be checked to force a C64 memory map). Yep. The group actively kept one step ahead of management to keep them from screwing with the project too badly. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 24 09:49:30 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 10:49:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161224154930.13A2918C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > I have this on AI: >> the semi-original AI (that is, the KA-10 rather than the PDP-6) was >> .. was given to a bunch of hackers from Concourse Oh, right, now that you mention it, I very vaguely recall this. I'm not sure why I thought they had taken a KA too - I think I may have been confused by this email: Date: Fri, 16 Sep 88 00:16:04 EDT From: Peter Lothberg Subject: The "crack team", is dissasembling MX, for it's trip to Sweden To: INFO-ITS at AI.AI.MIT.EDU The crack team has begun to work; ... (As the system will not fill the container more than 40% or so, we vold like donations of other stuff, like Lisp-machines, AAA terminals, a IMP, Conection machines, retired 2060's etc, (I'm not joking...)) which does talk about taking other stuff. But I have this persistent memory that they took a KA - maybe I should try and get ahold of Peter and see? There is a later email: Date: 11-Nov-88 0:39:51 +0100 From: Peter_Lothberg To: bug-its at ai.ai.mit.edu Subject: The container and MX Arrived to Stockholm and we unpacked the container on wendsday. The container has, sure shaked, the cardboard paper that we put between the cabinets, has bloue spots..... But, everything was in the same position that we left it, so, hopfully it is not hurt by the transport, or the cold here. We have put the machine on several places, while we are waiting for our new machine room to be completed. which makes it sound like they only got the KL? It's also possibly I am mixing two memories, and remembering this: Date: Sat, 3 Oct 87 23:02:14 EDT From: Alan Bawden Subject: The operating system that wouldn't die! AAAAIIIIEEEEEE!!!!! To: INFO-ITS at AI.AI.MIT.EDU I thought I would take this opportunity to spread the word about something that I don't think has been very widely publicized. Some of you may recall that a while ago some fellows in Sweden contacted us about running ITS on various PDP-10's that they owned? Well, we mailed them a set of tapes for bringing up ITS on their 2020, which they were able to do without too much trouble .. That all happened over a year ago. Recently we learned that these guys have successfully -built- ITS paging hardware for their KA-10, and have ITS up and running there as well! Totally Amazing. Pretty astonishing accomplishment, that. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 24 10:59:22 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 08:59:22 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: <8052e42a-b6c0-97db-a269-650e47f6f069@bitsavers.org> References: <4496283d-5e56-af66-64ff-7461805eed56@bitsavers.org> <8052e42a-b6c0-97db-a269-650e47f6f069@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12/24/16 7:43 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > see if he'll dump the firmware. it's identical to the DCA IRMAprint > the pcb is identical From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Dec 24 13:04:13 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 11:04:13 -0800 Subject: ICL7611 op-amp (was: Motorola MC14081B) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E19EE1B-5B2F-43F0-A317-5E1DB7ECB7AC@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Dec-24, at 4:07 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 24/12/2016 03:48, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: > >> The ICL7611 is, I expect, a very-low-power (Intersil's niche) op amp. Together >> with the CMOS 4081 the circuit appears tailored for low-power operation. >> Is it supplied by the battery? >> It may require the battery presence for stable supply at time of power-up to >> get reliable reset operation from this power-on-reset circuit. > > That's a very good point so now I'm going to have to scrabble around to find > the battery to find out what voltage it was since I removed it ages ago and > may have recycled it. I don't recall any markings on it though, it looked > like a 'normal' 3 terminal NiCAD wrapped in blue plastic. I did take hi-res > pictures of it however. > > The 5V input at R395 does head off towards the battery location before it > hits the resistor so I'll trace that out too. The circuit makes sense if the battery is connected to the Vcc line of the ICL7611, 4081, etc., D1 would be backflow prevention into the +12V line . R416 would be current limiting providing ~ 8mA trickle charge of the NiCds. Speaking of such equipment, our museum has one of these buried somewhere, a Nortel Displayphone: http://classiccmp.org/dunfield/disphone/index.htm I don't think it has all the apps of the Executel, it's phone + on-screen phone directory & phone apps + RS232 terminal with 300bps modem. I hope to work on it and document it sometime. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 24 14:00:01 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 15:00:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161224200001.C971E18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > their KA10 had a paging box, made by System[s] Concepts Speaking of which, here's a photo of the display panel from it: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/SysConKAPanel.jpg The meter didn't show up well in that, and it's too cool to miss, so here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/SysConMeter.jpg is a shot of it. Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 24 15:50:05 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 21:50:05 +0000 Subject: ICL7611 op-amp (was: Motorola MC14081B) In-Reply-To: <2E19EE1B-5B2F-43F0-A317-5E1DB7ECB7AC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 24/12/2016 19:04, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: > On 2016-Dec-24, at 4:07 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> On 24/12/2016 03:48, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: >> >>> The ICL7611 is, I expect, a very-low-power (Intersil's niche) op amp. >>> Together >>> with the CMOS 4081 the circuit appears tailored for low-power operation. >>> Is it supplied by the battery? >>> It may require the battery presence for stable supply at time of power-up to >>> get reliable reset operation from this power-on-reset circuit. >> >> That's a very good point so now I'm going to have to scrabble around to find >> the battery to find out what voltage it was since I removed it ages ago and >> may have recycled it. I don't recall any markings on it though, it looked >> like a 'normal' 3 terminal NiCAD wrapped in blue plastic. I did take hi-res >> pictures of it however. >> >> The 5V input at R395 does head off towards the battery location before it >> hits the resistor so I'll trace that out too. > > > The circuit makes sense if the battery is connected to the Vcc line of the > ICL7611, 4081, etc., > D1 would be backflow prevention into the +12V line . > R416 would be current limiting providing ~ 8mA trickle charge of the NiCds. Looking at the back of the board the battery WAS originally connected to the 7611 and 4081 at manufacturing but then that connection was physically cut out and a jumper wire added to the line that supplies the MM58174AN RTC that's next to them, which is derived from the 12V DRAM supply. Pity, I was kind of hoping that if I added the/a battery back in then the 7611 would be happy at power up but it looks like it's not involved at all. Could I add a bit of adjustability by replacing R397 with a 100K pot? *embarrassed face* The resistor formerly known as R416 is actually R424, seen here top right in a hybrid front/back mix of the board around the battery which includes the CMOS chips: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelBatterySectionHybrid.jpg You can see the cutout under the upper left hand battery terminal and the blue jumper wire running to the 4081. The two green resistors upper left in the cluster of 5 are R398 and R406. All the red caps are decouplers. > Speaking of such equipment, our museum has one of these buried somewhere, a > Nortel Displayphone: > http://classiccmp.org/dunfield/disphone/index.htm > I don't think it has all the apps of the Executel, > it's phone + on-screen phone directory & phone apps + RS232 terminal with > 300bps modem. > I hope to work on it and document it sometime. Nice! Hope you have a great xmas :D -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 16:36:07 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 15:36:07 -0700 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: <8052e42a-b6c0-97db-a269-650e47f6f069@bitsavers.org> References: <4496283d-5e56-af66-64ff-7461805eed56@bitsavers.org> <8052e42a-b6c0-97db-a269-650e47f6f069@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 24, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > see if he'll dump the firmware. it's identical to the DCA IRMAprint > OK, I've asked. Will let you know. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 16:39:46 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 15:39:46 -0700 Subject: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: <20161224151044.GA7846@mooli.org.uk> References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> <20161223105910.GA17070@mooli.org.uk> <20161224151044.GA7846@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 24, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 04:14:28AM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > > The same trick works perfectly well with a 6502, and in fact was > invented by > > Don Lancaster using a 6502 years before the ZX80 was designed. That > doesn't > > really explain the choice of the Z80. > > Interesting. I was of the understanding that the Z80 video hack didn't > work on > the 6502 due to the latter being slightly pipelined and so the instruction > fetch cycle couldn't be abused in the same way. Perhaps Sinclair couldn't > get > it to work on some dodgy 6502s that fell off the back of a lorry. > The details aren't identical, but on the 6502 it's abusing the fetch of both an opcode and an immediate operand. If there was nothing in it, then it's a mystery why the Z80 was selected. > However, Sinclair wasn't exactly one for making rational design decisions > based > on technical merit or industry best practice. As much as I like the 6502, the Z80 is better in some ways, particularly if you want to do a lot of 16-bit add and subtract. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Dec 25 01:08:14 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2016 01:08:14 -0600 Subject: OT: Please help - Neighbors home burned this Christmas eve Message-ID: Please forgive this, list-members, I know it's way OT: https://www.gofundme.com/jeff-kris-kidder-xmas-eve-fire My super great neighbors across the street lost their home to fire this evening. =( These folks are the best of the best.. as the saying goes "Couldn't have happened a nicer guy!". Please spread it around as you feel is appropriate. Like most of us, we're still kind of in shock over it. I can only imagine how Jeff & Kris are.. thanks for your forbearance. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Dec 25 01:58:07 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 23:58:07 -0800 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161224200001.C971E18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161224200001.C971E18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9db34601-d54f-d15e-9d8e-82a0b942d49c@jwsss.com> On 12/24/2016 12:00 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > their KA10 had a paging box, made by System[s] Concepts > > Speaking of which, here's a photo of the display panel from it: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/SysConKAPanel.jpg > > The meter didn't show up well in that, and it's too cool to miss, so here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/SysConMeter.jpg > > is a shot of it. > > Noel I was looking at some photos on FB posted by a friend and ran across Richard Greenblatt's oral history. It has some mentions of what the PDP6's and PDP 10's were used for. http://archive.computerhistory.org/projects/chess/related_materials/oral-history/greenblatt.oral_history.2005.102634500/102657935-05-01-acc.pdf I've not had time to read other than to think these are perhaps interesting if you guys didn't run across them. I think they may have been used by the Project Mac folks. Perhaps posting this over on the Multics thread might stir up some information if you want more. A lot of the original guys are there. I'd be glad to do it if no-one else on the thread here can do so. Thanks for the interesting thread. thanks Jim And Merry Christmas from LA From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Dec 24 11:39:08 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 12:39:08 -0500 Subject: General public machines (Was: Altair 8800 name Was: Re: Altair 680 Expansion Boards? In-Reply-To: References: <9cde2deb-bff5-1e82-8bb0-967e47ae6153@verizon.net> Message-ID: <40353877-0ff7-30b0-b606-4f8ff405292f@verizon.net> On 12/23/2016 02:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> At the time, I was in my (almost) young teens - and at least in the >> circles >> I traveled, the TRS-80 / Osborne and Kaypro were viewed as boring, >> stodgy >> machines without any redeeming entertainment qualities - no color >> graphics, >> no sprites, poor or nearly non-existent audio, expensive joysticks >> and so >> on. > > Boring, certainly. > Not sure if it was sophisticated enough to be stodgy. > As Z80 machnes of the day the Kaypro was meant for work and screen games like Adventure played well on it as it was responsive. But there was always a divide between games/graphics/sound and those with good text terminal. An example of oddballs was S100 Cromemco with a dazzler and terminal board . >> The ability of the machines to serve multiple roles - for both 'serious' >> work and video gaming / music - was a huge selling point in the early >> days. >> This is one of the reasons that the C64 was so massively successful - it >> pretty much had something for everyone, as the saying goes. That, and >> the >> price of the base machine was just amazingly low for the time. Ditto for >> the VIC-20. > > Ah! Therein lies the rub. > The TRS-80 wasn't any good for some things. As a primarily > entertainment machine, it was rubbish. No color, no sound, no > joysticks, grossly inadequate graphics. (some of which could be > worked around) > If you were looking for an games/entertainment machine, it would be > outside of the consideration set. Of the set of people looking for a > games/entertainment machine, "NOBODY has one." > Best game on it was "Adventure". Best graphics was Lim's "Android Nim" > Or maybe Startrek. TRS80 was one of the "packaged systems" aka allinone that tried to be broad and mostly was limited at all. > > On the other side of the market, the TRS-80 did not have 80x24 text, > and had a memory map that was incompatible with CP/M. Parasitic > Engineering (Howard Fullmer!) and Omikron, both made [somewhat > expensive] sandwich boards for the TRS-80 to change that memory map, > and to add 8" SSSD drive support. > > Of the original "Big three" (Radio Shack, Apple, Commodore), who came > first, Apple was the only one with entertainment capabilities, but > they priced it out of your market. > All of them were trying to find a market and it was a market that was changing at the same time. > Later, the Commodore Vic-20 and C64 were aimed at your segment of the > market, and priced appropriately. > Radio Shack's later "Color Computer" (6809!) was far more appropriate, > but it also suffered some crippling design decision errors. > And it was late to the game. Cool machine but it misses again. > >> the very early 1980s, when I was about 15, my father decided to buy a >> home computer. (Before that, he had a TI Silent 700 that dialed up to a >> Univac mainframe.) I remember him doing hours of research comparing the >> Apple II, the TRS-80, the Commodore PET, and probably some of the S-100 >> machines. He eventually chose the Heathkit H89. I^@^Yll have to ask him >> exactly why, but I know that he^@^Ys always liked good-quality tools, >> and the combination of the Heathkit design, the Z80 CPU, and CP/M seemed >> like the best combination of tools at the time. > > Apple II, TRS-80, and Commodore PET didn't have 80x24 screen text! > THAT was why my cousin rejected them and went with a Heathkit. > If you want to be able to use it as a terminal, . . . > Yes the H89, DEC Vt180 (costly though), and many others had decent terminal, Good processing and disks. Games not so much. > Later, add-on cards for Apple2 came out for 80 column. > TRS-80 didn't get 80x24 text until the Model 4 (which is what the > Model 3 should have been) (Model 2/12/16 was never intended to be a > "Home" computer, and was marketed for small business) > The TRS80 later mods were late enough to loose presence. Apple With 80x24 helped it firm up its footing as a useful business machine. I still go back at if the desired software was available then the machine was suitable for the Commies and Apples that included games. The other is was Editors, high level languages, spreadsheet, and database, that group favored machine with z80, 6502 and good 80x24 screens. That last group barely included TRS80, Apple with Softcard and all was in, then there were the multitude of other z80 systems that nearly all ran CP/M even if they came with something else. If I had to call a year 1980 was a breakpoint for systems. I will call it the year of rising expectations. It bridges from early 1979 though 1980 in a broad way. If you ran a widely used OS your had a good start. If you ran the popular and desired software you had a good start. The number of CPUs in the running were few and usually Z80 or 6502. The 16biters were being talked about as the next thing but not really there yet. Then it was more about what you did and how well. An example of that is 80x24, if you had sparklies and flashes it was less desirable for example. it is was a TV monitor vs built in and good quality. If you did a weaker display scheme but it could be improved by adding a card that was a plus (S100 and other buses had strength here). Same for available memory and adding more in 1979 64K was expensive and uncommon but a year later it was nearly required. Same for mass storage audio cassettes were on the way out and floppies and hard disks by 1980 reaching the not so obscenely expensive to have and very much needed for the software expected. The key there is EXPECTED. People were buying machines and had for the most part left the mad hacker trying to make it work behind and had clear wants and needs. Thats the first generation Home/personal computer user now looking for the upgrade machine. There were also the new customers wanting to do specific things and didn't care about specs, boards, and bells and whistles. Its no small comment that in that time frame the big mags like BYTE, Kilobaud, and Interface Age were setting those expectations. Oddly games had variations of the above but expectations were also higher and things like better graphics, color and complex sound were important. Oddly they had the same limitations and dependencies that were being address with CPU speed and a need for more bits. Looking back it was not so much the good old days as they days of chaos, innovations and new and watching what would stick to the wall. Allison From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Dec 24 13:39:18 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 11:39:18 -0800 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2016-Dec-23, at 4:14 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: >>>> Hi Folks, >>>> >>>> I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' >>>> condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and >>>> will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are >>>> there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe >>>> travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but >>>> haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc. >>>> >>>> Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers? >>>> >>> >>> Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada? >>> >>> Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing. There >>> are, IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should >>> probably be removed and shipped separately. Nothing like getting a box >>> o' broken glass to make life interesting. >>> > > Well, I think you guys have convinced me that a trip is in order. Better safe than sorry with a piece of equipment like this. > > Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its head on classiccmp the past few days. -C Was this ebayed? Just found this mention on VCFed from a week ago: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55364-1956-Binary-Desk-Computer-LIBRASCOPE-LGP-30 I see Vancouver is mentioned: "I've been told that this was the oldest computer in Vancouver" As a lifelong area resident, I'd be interested in hearing anything known of the lineage, where it came from and when it left Vancouver. Would love to have worked on it if it was once nearby. Congrats to Cory for the acquisition, should be an exciting project. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Dec 24 13:40:05 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 11:40:05 -0800 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2016-Dec-23, at 4:14 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: >>>> Hi Folks, >>>> >>>> I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' >>>> condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and >>>> will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are >>>> there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe >>>> travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but >>>> haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc. >>>> >>>> Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers? >>>> >>> >>> Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada? >>> >>> Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing. There >>> are, IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should >>> probably be removed and shipped separately. Nothing like getting a box >>> o' broken glass to make life interesting. >>> > > Well, I think you guys have convinced me that a trip is in order. Better safe than sorry with a piece of equipment like this. > > Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its head on classiccmp the past few days. -C Was this ebayed? Just found this mention on VCFed from a week ago: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55364-1956-Binary-Desk-Computer-LIBRASCOPE-LGP-30 I see Vancouver is mentioned: "I've been told that this was the oldest computer in Vancouver" As a lifelong area resident, I'd be interested in hearing anything known of the lineage, where it came from and when it left Vancouver. Would love to have worked on it if it was once nearby. Congrats to Cory for the acquisition, should be an exciting project. From lists+cctalk at loomcom.com Sat Dec 24 18:11:43 2016 From: lists+cctalk at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 18:11:43 -0600 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161224200001.C971E18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161224200001.C971E18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161225001143.GA23481@loomcom.com> * On Sat, Dec 24, 2016 at 03:00:01PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: > The meter didn't show up well in that, and it's too cool to miss, so here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/SysConMeter.jpg > > is a shot of it. That's brilliant. I love that meter, and now I kind of want to make one of my very own. > Noel -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Dec 25 04:02:28 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2016 23:02:28 +1300 Subject: The CHALLENGER 1P Technical Report Message-ID: Hi, Please forgive me if this OSI document is already on the web somewhere. I looked but couldn't find it. I have a copy so I scanned it. It can be downloaded at: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-12-25-OSI-CP1-technical-report.htm Feel free to link to it, or place it in other OSI repositories. Merry Xmas Tez From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 25 06:08:18 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2016 07:08:18 -0500 Subject: The CHALLENGER 1P Technical Report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Tez Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Dec 25, 2016 5:02 AM, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > Hi, > > Please forgive me if this OSI document is already on the web somewhere. I > looked but couldn't find it. I have a copy so I scanned it. It can be > downloaded at: > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-12-25-OSI- > CP1-technical-report.htm > > Feel free to link to it, or place it in other OSI repositories. > > Merry Xmas > > Tez > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 25 09:32:32 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2016 15:32:32 +0000 Subject: The CHALLENGER 1P Technical Report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25/12/2016 12:08, "william degnan" wrote: > Thanks Tez > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Dec 25, 2016 5:02 AM, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Please forgive me if this OSI document is already on the web somewhere. I >> looked but couldn't find it. I have a copy so I scanned it. It can be >> downloaded at: >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-12-25-OSI- >> CP1-technical-report.htm >> >> Feel free to link to it, or place it in other OSI repositories. I've got a Challenger 1P, it's on my todo list along with a metric buttload of other things! I love vertical learning curves :) All the best to the other sides of the world. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Dec 25 16:20:06 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2016 16:20:06 -0600 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> Message-ID: <58604616.1040500@pico-systems.com> >>>> On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: >>>>> Hi Folks, >>>>> >>>>> I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' >>>>> condition. I worked just a little bit on a Bendix G-15, a machine from about the same vintage. 300 vacuum tubes, about 3000 silicon (I think) diodes, and a drum. Really, there are so MANY parts in a machine of that vintage that would be really tough to get, it could be an incredible project to get it running. The G-15 had an IBM executive typewriter modded as the console, with a box of about 50 telephone relays as the decode/encode matrix, driven by thyratron tubes. Our drum came pre-scored, I think 3 tracks were grooved down to the brass layer. They had REALLY poor sealing of the drum. Part of it was very good, but several large wire bundles came in through a drawn aluminum cover with caterpillar grommets. So, no attempt to seal the drum at all, therefore lots of dirt got in and packed under the fixed heads. Hopefully your LGP-30 has a better arrangement there. But, lots of connectors, tube sockets, and similar parts may be hard to get, not to mention the number of marginal tubes that you might need to replace. I know on the Bendix G-15 the logic was really convoluted, to save tubes. So, they chained several layers of and and or gates together before an amplifying tube, to do as much logic as possible with each tube. Then, of course, you'd need to resurrect some bit of software to do anything meaningful. Wow, sounds like a big project. Jon From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun Dec 25 16:53:34 2016 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 09:53:34 +1100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <86zijmqxm1.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <20161223010135.C662318C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <868tr6sfsy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <864m1uscaw.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <86zijmqxm1.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <8E31235F-801F-4AA8-8C51-AE4A3D4B1A8D@kerberos.davies.net.au> > On 24 Dec 2016, at 06:00, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >> I have tried to keep track of all the ITS machines, and where they went. >> https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/181 > > By the way, the Australian ITS called FU is a great mystery. I only > found it mentioned in the ITS source code. Flinders University had a 36 bit system (I?m not sure if it was a KI or KL). I think they were running TOPS-20 on it. I see in the notes the they were running ITS on a KS - seems a rather odd thing to do as they?d invested a lot in there other system but perhaps it was a separate project outside of their main Computer Centre stuff. They had a very innovative medical degree program so perhaps this was associated with it? I remember visiting once for a DECUS meeting - at that stage I was a student at La Trobe University and we had a KI-10 running TOPS-10. For that particular DECUS meeting I?d worked on comparing various ?systems? programming languages for ease of use and performance - the list included BCPL. BLISS-10, Simula-67, SAIL, MACRO-10 and Algol-60. As some on the list know, this includes my favourite language which puts me at odds with many within Digital :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 25 20:00:56 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2016 18:00:56 -0800 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <58604616.1040500@pico-systems.com> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> <58604616.1040500@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <891706a6-fee7-f26c-b73c-dedb2b30bfcf@bitsavers.org> On 12/25/16 2:20 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >you'd need to resurrect some bit of software to do anything meaningful. a lot already is on line http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/lgp30/ ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp30/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 25 20:03:06 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2016 18:03:06 -0800 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <891706a6-fee7-f26c-b73c-dedb2b30bfcf@bitsavers.org> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> <58604616.1040500@pico-systems.com> <891706a6-fee7-f26c-b73c-dedb2b30bfcf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8dc205c5-d8b3-1082-b594-c4be195f8628@bitsavers.org> and this shows the major assemblies http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/lgp30_40/lgp30_deko.html On 12/25/16 6:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 12/25/16 2:20 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >> you'd need to resurrect some bit of software to do anything meaningful. > > > a lot already is on line > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/lgp30/ > ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp30/ > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 25 22:47:15 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2016 23:47:15 -0500 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <8dc205c5-d8b3-1082-b594-c4be195f8628@bitsavers.org> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> <58604616.1040500@pico-systems.com> <891706a6-fee7-f26c-b73c-dedb2b30bfcf@bitsavers.org> <8dc205c5-d8b3-1082-b594-c4be195f8628@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Dec 25, 2016 9:01 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > > and this shows the major assemblies > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/lgp30_40/lgp30_deko.html > > On 12/25/16 6:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > On 12/25/16 2:20 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> > >> you'd need to resurrect some bit of software to do anything meaningful. > > > > > > a lot already is on line > > > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/lgp30/ > > ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp30/ > > > I have most original manuals and a lot of code and notes toom From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Dec 26 04:14:42 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 23:14:42 +1300 Subject: The Dick Smith System 80, as sold to New Zealanders Message-ID: Over this Xmas break I've grabbed some time to add a few bits and pieces to my Dick Smith System 80 website. Some on the list might find this stuff interesting, hence the post. For those who might not know, Dick Smith was a colourful Australian entrepreneur (and helicopter pilot), who pioneered a chain of electronic shops. These shops were like the Radio Shack of Australia. The first of these shops opened in New Zealand in 1981 (or 1982?). Here are selected pages from the first Dick Smith catalog advertising the System 80 and accessories to us New Zealanders. The prices are eyewatering. Sales tax on overseas goods was very high. I think one NZ dollar was worth about 50 US cents at that time, maybe even lower. Nevertheless I bought a System 80 as advertised! My wife nearly killed me, as we were saving up to buy a house (opps!). Anyway, the PDF is here: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/promotion-selected-pages-1st-dick-smith-nz-catalogue.pdf If you want to see everything I've added, check out the top three entries in this list: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/whats_new.htm Tez From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 07:49:09 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 07:49:09 -0600 Subject: The Dick Smith System 80, as sold to New Zealanders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7FE43541-6C70-47C4-87BF-50CB9501FCCC@gmail.com> Those are some eye watering prices for sure. What was the average household income at that time? Sent from my iPhone From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Dec 26 09:09:26 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 12:09:26 -0300 Subject: The Dick Smith System 80, as sold to New Zealanders In-Reply-To: <7FE43541-6C70-47C4-87BF-50CB9501FCCC@gmail.com> References: <7FE43541-6C70-47C4-87BF-50CB9501FCCC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d41f4f8-0aa4-9e29-f8fa-570bdedddd54@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-12-26 10:49 AM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Those are some eye watering prices for sure. What was the average household income at that time? > > Sent from my iPhone > > Best guess I could make in 10 minutes of googling was $150-$200 average wage per week in 1981 ($7800-10400/year) based on $157/week in 1979. https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/the-1970s/overview --Toby From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 26 09:10:14 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 16:10:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Dec 2016, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its > head on classiccmp the past few days. -C If you tell me its serial number I can eventually tell you who was/were the previous owner(s) ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 26 09:37:43 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 16:37:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Dec 2016, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' > condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and will > need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are there any > special precautions I should take to ensure its safe travel. I'm > especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but haven't been able to > find a maintenance or setup doc. > > Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers? - Remove all tube modules and pack them in boxes (with good padding) - Remove the drum and stuff/pack it separately (remove the belt going to the small motor below the drum and unscrew the drum assembly from the frame) - Remove all side panels and the cover; there's nothing more annoying than dented panels caused by fixating the frame to the panel and/or truck. Do you get software and manuals with your machine? Christian PS: Just found the auction... you paid *WHAT*??? Wow... for a machine in a quite battered shape. What idiot put the heavy Flexowriter on the fragile top?? Where's the cable connecting the Flexowriter to the computer? Oh, and it works without a power cable... Sorry, I had to make those comments ;-) Good luck and enjoy playing with your new computer :-) From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 09:49:32 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 10:49:32 -0500 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Fri, 23 Dec 2016, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > >> I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' >> condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and will need >> to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are there any special >> precautions I should take to ensure its safe travel. I'm especially worried >> about the drum (drum lock?), but haven't been able to find a maintenance or >> setup doc. >> >> Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers? >> > > - Remove all tube modules and pack them in boxes (with good padding) > - Remove the drum and stuff/pack it separately (remove the belt going to > the small motor below the drum and unscrew the drum assembly from the frame) > - Remove all side panels and the cover; there's nothing more annoying than > dented panels caused by fixating the frame to the panel and/or truck. > > Do you get software and manuals with your machine? > > Christian > > PS: Just found the auction... you paid *WHAT*??? Wow... for a machine in a > quite battered shape. What idiot put the heavy Flexowriter on the fragile > top?? Where's the cable connecting the Flexowriter to the computer? Oh, and > it works without a power cable... Sorry, I had to make those comments ;-) > Good luck and enjoy playing with your new computer :-) > aw come on :-) This is a one of a kind thing. There is a value in knowing you have a project that will keep you busy, assuming you enjoy this kind of thing, for a long time. On the other end will be a lot of new knowledge. I have manuals for this machine, they're out there. I have a neat training manual that was used by LGP to train new users. They really looked at this thing to be a personal computer. This was some may claim by some definition the *first* personal computer. Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 09:53:15 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 10:53:15 -0500 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > They really looked at this thing to be a personal computer. This was > some may claim by some definition the *first* personal computer. > > > > Note I am being very careful not to call this "the first personal computer", but it's certainly a personal computer and it was one of the first stored program computer intended for one operator in real time, etc. Bill From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 26 10:01:48 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 17:01:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Dec 2016, william degnan wrote: > Here are my notes on the LGP 30 > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=596 There are several errors in those notes: - "The basic (hardware) bootstrap in LGP-30 mnemonic format:" There is no hardware bootstrap. - The addresses in the bootstrap loader (program 9.0) must be hexadecimal and the bootstrap is entred as follows: C3W00 - P0000 C3W04 - I0000 C3W08 - C3W14 C3W0J - P0000 C3W10 - I0000 U3W00 - "4-character binary equivalent of the flexowriter single-character ascii commands" Ehm, ASCII wasn't "invented" at that time. There are no Flexowriter commands, the Flexowriter code is the LGP-30 code. - "First "B4627" is converted into binary-coded decimal format and entered into the accumulator" There's no conversion, the character code of the Flexowriter *is* the binary code of the LGP-30. - "The accumulator is actually 64 separate 32-bit accumulators (one for each drum track), same value on each copy." ??? The accumulator is one track with 32 double-width (i.e. 64 bits) sectors. You need the long accumulator when multiplying two 31-bit numbers (you can't store a 32 bit number to the memory because the LSB is always 0) All the registers are circulating registers meaning that the contents is read and immediately written back to ensure that it is accessible at any word (sector) time. Everything you need to know about the architecture and programming of the machine can be found in the manuals BTW (including schematics, flow charts, instruction description etc.). The manuals are online since many many years. Christian From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 10:43:08 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 11:43:08 -0500 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Sat, 24 Dec 2016, william degnan wrote: > >> Here are my notes on the LGP 30 >> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=596 >> > > There are several errors in those notes: > > You addressed me publicly so I will reply publicly. Several "errors" might be a few clicks too harsh given a person can get the idea of what I clearly meant AND I was referring to simH, trying to figure out how to make the simH of the LGP-30 work. I don't have an actual machine and don't claim to be an expert in its use, not the Flexowriter...have a spare? > - "The basic (hardware) bootstrap in LGP-30 mnemonic format:" > > There is no hardware bootstrap. > > I put hardware in parens for a reason. For me its a way to communicate the "level" of the bootstrap I could not think of a better way at the time to describe how it works in *simH*, which is what I was writing about in my post titled "SIMH Emulator - 1956 LGP-30 Computer". > - The addresses in the bootstrap loader (program 9.0) must be hexadecimal > and the bootstrap is entred as follows: > > C3W00 - P0000 > C3W04 - I0000 > C3W08 - C3W14 > C3W0J - P0000 > C3W10 - I0000 > U3W00 > > Thanks, good to know. I was writing from a SIMH standpoint, not the actual machine. > - "4-character binary equivalent of the flexowriter single-character ascii > commands" > > Ehm, ASCII wasn't "invented" at that time. There are no Flexowriter > commands, the Flexowriter code is the LGP-30 code. > Yes, but the Flexowriter encoding is not the same as ascii, but ascii is a common format someone today can relate to and convert from. One can translate Flexo encoding into ascii and you need to be able to do this to effectively use SIMH if you don't have a Flexowriter. > > - "First "B4627" is converted into binary-coded decimal format and entered > into the accumulator" > > There's no conversion, the character code of the Flexowriter *is* the > binary code of the LGP-30. > > OK. I converted in my head to understand it logically while using SIMH, This is a necessary step if you want to try to load in a bootstrap into the simH drum, etc. > - "The accumulator is actually 64 separate 32-bit accumulators (one for > each drum track), same value on each copy." > > ??? > Yes but you know what I mean, I am working in a vacuum teaching myself, I could have been more precise, but that's how I understood it at the time I wrote what I wrote. > The accumulator is one track with 32 double-width (i.e. 64 bits) sectors. > You need the long accumulator when multiplying two 31-bit numbers (you > can't store a 32 bit number to the memory because the LSB is always 0) > All the registers are circulating registers meaning that the contents is > read and immediately written back to ensure that it is accessible at any > word (sector) time. > > > Everything you need to know about the architecture and programming of the > machine can be found in the manuals BTW (including schematics, flow charts, > instruction description etc.). The manuals are online since many many years. > > Christian > I have all of the manuals. Basically I sat down at a simH prompt and the manuals and tried with only that to make sense of the LGP-30. I take it you have a machine at your disposal, I wish I did too. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, I will update my web site to make it more accurate. Bill From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Dec 26 11:23:35 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 12:23:35 -0500 Subject: The Dick Smith System 80, as sold to New Zealanders Message-ID: <107246e.6fe3fb2a.4592ac17@aol.com> In a message dated 12/26/2016 3:14:49 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, terry at webweavers.co.nz writes: Over this Xmas break I've grabbed some time to add a few bits and pieces to my Dick Smith System 80 website. Some on the list might find this stuff interesting, hence the post. For those who might not know, Dick Smith was a colourful Australian entrepreneur (and helicopter pilot), who pioneered a chain of electronic shops. These shops were like the Radio Shack of Australia. The first of these shops opened in New Zealand in 1981 (or 1982?). Here are selected pages from the first Dick Smith catalog advertising the System 80 and accessories to us New Zealanders. The prices are eyewatering. Sales tax on overseas goods was very high. I think one NZ dollar was worth about 50 US cents at that time, maybe even lower. Nevertheless I bought a System 80 as advertised! My wife nearly killed me, as we were saving up to buy a house (opps!). Anyway, the PDF is here: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/promotion-selected-pages-1st-d ick-smith-nz-catalogue.pdf If you want to see everything I've added, check out the top three entries in this list: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/whats_new.htm Tez Tez - The thing that catches my eye is the S-100 expander so you can use s-100 i/o devices! Ed# From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 26 11:48:19 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 09:48:19 -0800 Subject: Nova system in Houston Message-ID: <11753a82-f721-0e7e-2b2c-b4edfb6b8046@bitsavers.org> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55474-Found-an-Entrex-setup-I-have-no-idea-what-to-do-with-it I hope to God someone can save the whole system. People who gut systems for the core memory boards REALLY piss me off. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 12:54:28 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 18:54:28 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel Message-ID: I am starting to fill a spare H960 with my PDP8/e system. Starting as in cleaning up the rack, sorting out the power controller, etc.... This is a somewhat odd question for me as I don't normally care about such things, but I might as well try to get it right... Anyway, I have one of those plastic banner panels for the top front of the rack. It's missing the insert (just the black plastic part), but I would guess (based on what I know of the history of the rack) it would have been the magenta one for PDP11s. Was there a yellow/brown one for PDP8 systems? If so, is a scan available anywhere? Is there any way I can get it printed (and onto what) in the UK? I don't have a large enough printer to do this. Has anyone made said panels before? How did you do it? -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 12:08:23 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 13:08:23 -0500 Subject: LINCtape/DECtape Head Alignment Message-ID: The RICM is working on the skew adjustment on a TU56 tape drive on a PDP-12. We only see a 5mV signal from the head, so when we flip the tape over we will only see 1mV. This is below the capabilities of my 'scope. The DEC skew adjustment procedure talks about using a DEC amplifier to boost the head signal to several volts. We are planning to make an equivalent amplifier using a modern Op-amp. It would be really convenient to have one of the Amphenol 133-022-03 connectors from a G851 Relay module on our amplifier so it would plug directly into the head cable. Does anyone have a DEC G851 module that we could remove the connector from? -- Michael Thompson From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 26 14:07:00 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 20:07:00 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <747e29c7-f10f-26a9-195a-5e627c007823@btinternet.com> On 26/12/2016 18:54, Tony Duell wrote: > I am starting to fill a spare H960 with my PDP8/e system. Starting as > in cleaning > up the rack, sorting out the power controller, etc.... > > This is a somewhat odd question for me as I don't normally care about > such things, > but I might as well try to get it right... > > Anyway, I have one of those plastic banner panels for the top front of > the rack. It's > missing the insert (just the black plastic part), but I would guess > (based on what I > know of the history of the rack) it would have been the magenta one for PDP11s. > > Was there a yellow/brown one for PDP8 systems? > > If so, is a scan available anywhere? > > Is there any way I can get it printed (and onto what) in the UK? I don't have a > large enough printer to do this. > > Has anyone made said panels before? How did you do it? > > -tony If you have a picture I'll see what I can do Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 14:09:28 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 20:09:28 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: <747e29c7-f10f-26a9-195a-5e627c007823@btinternet.com> References: <747e29c7-f10f-26a9-195a-5e627c007823@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > If you have a picture I'll see what I can do Thanks for the offer. But as yet I don't have a picture. I don't even know that the banner existed. All I've seen (and got) are the PDP11 ones. I _assume_ there was one for PDP8 systems, but assumptions can be dangerous. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 26 14:34:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 12:34:02 -0800 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: References: <747e29c7-f10f-26a9-195a-5e627c007823@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <9bd69058-4b56-135b-1ece-446645ca07fa@bitsavers.org> It exists http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102666173 I don't know why that particular one is in the wrong colors also this style: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102691355 http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102666170 on the short racks On 12/26/16 12:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't even > know that the banner existed. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 26 14:55:34 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 12:55:34 -0800 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507F5D5B-FE8A-44DD-B590-0AB7CACC1CA8@shiresoft.com> > On Dec 26, 2016, at 10:54 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am starting to fill a spare H960 with my PDP8/e system. Starting as > in cleaning > up the rack, sorting out the power controller, etc.... > > This is a somewhat odd question for me as I don't normally care about > such things, > but I might as well try to get it right... > > Anyway, I have one of those plastic banner panels for the top front of > the rack. It's > missing the insert (just the black plastic part), but I would guess > (based on what I > know of the history of the rack) it would have been the magenta one for PDP11s. > > Was there a yellow/brown one for PDP8 systems? Yes, I have one sitting on my PDP-8/e system. Just like the PDP-11 panels, they?re ?printed? on an aluminum sheet that?s glued into the plastic header panel. I haven?t found it easy to remove them from the plastic header panel without bending the aluminum so it?ll probably be difficult to get a reasonable scan but others may have better luck at removing them than I have had. > > If so, is a scan available anywhere? > > Is there any way I can get it printed (and onto what) in the UK? I don't have a > large enough printer to do this. I would imagine that the best way to do this would be to have the image silk screened onto the appropriate material and then insert that into the header panel. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 26 14:57:51 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 12:57:51 -0800 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: <9bd69058-4b56-135b-1ece-446645ca07fa@bitsavers.org> References: <747e29c7-f10f-26a9-195a-5e627c007823@btinternet.com> <9bd69058-4b56-135b-1ece-446645ca07fa@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51197806-E420-4A9A-A8E1-955C205E9650@shiresoft.com> Yea, that is a weird set of colors. I?ll see if I can take a picture of mine today and figure out where to post it. TTFN - Guy > On Dec 26, 2016, at 12:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > It exists > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102666173 > > I don't know why that particular one is in the wrong colors > > also this style: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102691355 > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102666170 > > on the short racks > > On 12/26/16 12:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I don't even >> know that the banner existed. > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 15:03:41 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:03:41 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: <507F5D5B-FE8A-44DD-B590-0AB7CACC1CA8@shiresoft.com> References: <507F5D5B-FE8A-44DD-B590-0AB7CACC1CA8@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 8:55 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> Was there a yellow/brown one for PDP8 systems? > > Yes, I have one sitting on my PDP-8/e system. Just like the PDP-11 OK, at least I am not asking for something that never existed :-) > panels, they?re ?printed? on an aluminum sheet that?s glued into the > plastic header panel. I haven?t found it easy to remove them from > the plastic header panel without bending the aluminum so it?ll probably > be difficult to get a reasonable scan but others may have better luck > at removing them than I have had. I hadn't realised that they were printed on aluminium. Ouch!. I also don't know how they are fixed to the plastic header panel, my plastic panel is 'empty' and I don't see any adhesive residue. Maybe some kind of double-sided tape? I wonder if something could be done with a good photograph of the panel? Obviously I am not asking anyone to damage or risk damaging their machines for this. > >> >> If so, is a scan available anywhere? >> >> Is there any way I can get it printed (and onto what) in the UK? I don't have a >> large enough printer to do this. > > I would imagine that the best way to do this would be to have the > image silk screened onto the appropriate material and then insert > that into the header panel. That sounds non-trivial to do.... -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 26 15:07:45 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 16:07:45 -0500 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: References: <507F5D5B-FE8A-44DD-B590-0AB7CACC1CA8@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <08A919EC-1418-4F36-A518-40772090104B@comcast.net> > On Dec 26, 2016, at 4:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> ... > I hadn't realised that they were printed on aluminium. Ouch!. I also > don't know how they are fixed to the plastic header panel, my plastic > panel is 'empty' and I don't see any adhesive residue. Maybe some > kind of double-sided tape? No, the aluminum is adhesive-backed (with a rather potent adhesive). It's similar to what you see in serial number plates on machinery. I have somewhere a PDP-11 banner plate by itself, with the wax paper backing covering the adhesive still in place. If your plastic bracket is clean looking, it may never have had the panel stuck to it in the first place. paul From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 15:14:50 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:14:50 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: <08A919EC-1418-4F36-A518-40772090104B@comcast.net> References: <507F5D5B-FE8A-44DD-B590-0AB7CACC1CA8@shiresoft.com> <08A919EC-1418-4F36-A518-40772090104B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 9:07 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Dec 26, 2016, at 4:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> ... >> I hadn't realised that they were printed on aluminium. Ouch!. I also >> don't know how they are fixed to the plastic header panel, my plastic >> panel is 'empty' and I don't see any adhesive residue. Maybe some >> kind of double-sided tape? > > No, the aluminum is adhesive-backed (with a rather potent adhesive). > It's similar to what you see in serial number plates on machinery. I > have somewhere a PDP-11 banner plate by itself, with the wax paper > backing covering the adhesive still in place. If your plastic bracket is > clean looking, it may never have had the panel stuck to it in the first > place. Odd...The chap who gave me the rack removed the panel (and the fan, and the stabiliser feet) for transport and gave me a box with them in. He commented that as I was putting a PDP8e in it, I'd probably not want the banner that was there (I am pretty sure that the original contents of this H960 was some kind of PDP11 system). Anyway, spend the day cleaning dust off parts, stripping the fan and power controller, etc. I did not notice any adhesive residue on the plastic header panel. And I think I would have done. So perhaps the header was blank, or the banner just pushed in (perhaps somebody forgot to remove the backing paper...). -tony > > paul > From ats at offog.org Mon Dec 26 16:07:34 2016 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 22:07:34 +0000 Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: (Christian Corti's message of "Mon, 26 Dec 2016 16:10:14 +0100 (CET)") References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> Message-ID: Christian Corti writes: > If you tell me its serial number I can eventually tell you who > was/were the previous owner(s) ;-) "Underhill Engineering Co Ltd" painted on the top in the eBay pictures (if you squint) is a bit of a giveaway! They have a nice page about the machine's history: http://www.underhill.ca/land-survey-project/15/underhill-engineering-computing-services -- Adam Sampson From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 26 16:21:20 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 22:21:20 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: References: <747e29c7-f10f-26a9-195a-5e627c007823@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <324712a0-209b-fff7-3879-7d6f242d624c@btinternet.com> On 26/12/2016 20:09, Tony Duell wrote: > On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: > >> If you have a picture I'll see what I can do > Thanks for the offer. But as yet I don't have a picture. I don't even > know that the banner existed. > All I've seen (and got) are the PDP11 ones. I _assume_ there was one > for PDP8 systems, but > assumptions can be dangerous. > > -tony As soon as the girls get back from the Christmas break I'll have a word. I remember there's way from artwork to high grade decal. The sample I saw looked like it had been printed. It wasn't glossy and did not look like a photograph. A suitably shaped aluminium panel, put your sticky backed decal on it, run it throught a mangle (a pair of rubber rollers) to get rid of the air and there you go. Of course I could just use the normal silk screen process as per front panels. Just change the substrate and off we go. Rod From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 16:28:11 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 22:28:11 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: <324712a0-209b-fff7-3879-7d6f242d624c@btinternet.com> References: <747e29c7-f10f-26a9-195a-5e627c007823@btinternet.com> <324712a0-209b-fff7-3879-7d6f242d624c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 10:21 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > As soon as the girls get back from the Christmas break I'll have a word. THanks.... Needless to say this is hardly urgent. Heck the complete 8/e system will take time to get sorted out, and that's not urgent. Of course the banner can go on at any time. But it would be interesting to know what's possible... > > I remember there's way from artwork to high grade decal. The sample I saw > looked like it had been printed. > It wasn't glossy and did not look like a photograph. A suitably shaped > aluminium panel, put your sticky backed decal on it, run it throught a > mangle (a pair of rubber rollers) to get rid of the air and there you go. That's going to be 'fun'.. I can see myself making rollers and a frame to hold them. And then tryng to get a bit of sheet aluminium, cut it, round the corners etc. -tony From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 26 16:48:07 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 22:48:07 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: References: <747e29c7-f10f-26a9-195a-5e627c007823@btinternet.com> <324712a0-209b-fff7-3879-7d6f242d624c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 26/12/2016 22:28, Tony Duell wrote: > On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 10:21 PM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: > >> As soon as the girls get back from the Christmas break I'll have a word. > THanks.... Needless to say this is hardly urgent. Heck the complete 8/e > system will take time to get sorted out, and that's not urgent. Of course > the banner can go on at any time. > > But it would be interesting to know what's possible... > > >> I remember there's way from artwork to high grade decal. The sample I saw >> looked like it had been printed. >> It wasn't glossy and did not look like a photograph. A suitably shaped >> aluminium panel, put your sticky backed decal on it, run it throught a >> mangle (a pair of rubber rollers) to get rid of the air and there you go. > That's going to be 'fun'.. I can see myself making rollers and a frame to > hold them. And then tryng to get a bit of sheet aluminium, cut it, round > the corners etc. > > -tony I'm a bit better resourced. I already have access to whats needed. Price could be interesting. Rod From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Dec 26 19:17:47 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 20:17:47 -0500 Subject: DEC banner panel Message-ID: <15e487f.57010516.45931b3b@aol.com> Tony yes we have one with markings stating and for a 8M that fits in the plastic thingis at the top of H-960 It is in the usual orange pdp-8'ish colors. Odd! Just found it today in my house behid a old radio console. Do you need a pic? Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC In a message dated 12/26/2016 1:09:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com writes: On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > If you have a picture I'll see what I can do Thanks for the offer. But as yet I don't have a picture. I don't even know that the banner existed. All I've seen (and got) are the PDP11 ones. I _assume_ there was one for PDP8 systems, but assumptions can be dangerous. -tony From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 26 21:57:01 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 03:57:01 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: <15e487f.57010516.45931b3b@aol.com> References: <15e487f.57010516.45931b3b@aol.com> Message-ID: <2387e86f-f923-ba34-08b2-48c50d1c7285@btinternet.com> On 27/12/2016 01:17, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > Tony yes we have one with markings stating and for a 8M that fits in > the plastic thingis at the top of H-960 > It is in the usual orange pdp-8'ish colors. Odd! Just found it today in > my house behid a old radio console. Do you need a pic? > > Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC > > > In a message dated 12/26/2016 1:09:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com writes: > > On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: > >> If you have a picture I'll see what I can do > Thanks for the offer. But as yet I don't have a picture. I don't even > know that the banner existed. > All I've seen (and got) are the PDP11 ones. I _assume_ there was one > for PDP8 systems, but > assumptions can be dangerous. > > -tony > Hi Would it be possible for me to have a picture as well? I can then do some artwork. If possible a scan (two parts is ok) else a photo with camera at right angles pointing at the center of the panel. Also a note of the panel size (H x W) Thanks Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Dec 26 22:43:29 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 23:43:29 -0500 Subject: DEC banner panel Message-ID: <2147f1c.4497b696.45934b71@aol.com> ok Tony and Rod let me know if pic gets though in other message later I can try to scan in 11x 14 scanner? when you get the art cleaned up SMECC museum would like hi res copy too! i have a few minutes till next post atomic holocaust movie comes on let me go try the scanner In a message dated 12/26/2016 8:57:12 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com writes: On 27/12/2016 01:17, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > Tony yes we have one with markings stating and for a 8M that fits in > the plastic thingis at the top of H-960 > It is in the usual orange pdp-8'ish colors. Odd! Just found it today in > my house behid a old radio console. Do you need a pic? > > Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC > > > In a message dated 12/26/2016 1:09:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com writes: > > On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: > >> If you have a picture I'll see what I can do > Thanks for the offer. But as yet I don't have a picture. I don't even > know that the banner existed. > All I've seen (and got) are the PDP11 ones. I _assume_ there was one > for PDP8 systems, but > assumptions can be dangerous. > > -tony > Hi Would it be possible for me to have a picture as well? I can then do some artwork. If possible a scan (two parts is ok) else a photo with camera at right angles pointing at the center of the panel. Also a note of the panel size (H x W) Thanks Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Dec 26 23:31:37 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 00:31:37 -0500 Subject: DEC banner panel check your filter for the hi res images from scanner Message-ID: <1b24f5e.4c44dcd0.459356b8@aol.com> may times my aol ends in the bucket. if someone can pass this to Rod and Tony thanks Ed# From paisley at erols.com Mon Dec 26 14:44:48 2016 From: paisley at erols.com (paisley at erols.com) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 15:44:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1238672805.33322941.1482785088580.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> > Thanks for the offer. But as yet I don't have a picture. I don't even > know that the banner existed. > All I've seen (and got) are the PDP11 ones. I _assume_ there was one > for PDP8 systems, but > assumptions can be dangerous. Hi Tony. Are you talking about the banner for the main system? Or the second rack? The PDP/8e one looks like this: http://www.employees.org/~kirk/images/pdp8e.jpg A few years ago I had an insert printed out at a local Fast Signs store. I scanned an original that was beat up and created some artwork for the PDP-8e, PDP-11, and a DECSystem10 one (The first 2 were made from actual H960 rack banners. The last one was a whimsical one I created for fun.) I am not at home right now, but I can look to see if I can dig up the art work. I don't have one online of my PDP-8e one, but here are the other ones: http://www.willys-overland.com/rack/100_3452.jpg http://www.willys-overland.com/rack/100_3456.jpg Todd Paisley From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Dec 26 15:51:22 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 16:51:22 -0500 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: References: <507F5D5B-FE8A-44DD-B590-0AB7CACC1CA8@shiresoft.com> <08A919EC-1418-4F36-A518-40772090104B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1cc45e7e-4454-8859-e0a1-386356e40fce@verizon.net> On 12/26/2016 04:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 9:07 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Dec 26, 2016, at 4:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>> I hadn't realised that they were printed on aluminium. Ouch!. I also >>> don't know how they are fixed to the plastic header panel, my plastic >>> panel is 'empty' and I don't see any adhesive residue. Maybe some >>> kind of double-sided tape? >> No, the aluminum is adhesive-backed (with a rather potent adhesive). >> It's similar to what you see in serial number plates on machinery. I >> have somewhere a PDP-11 banner plate by itself, with the wax paper >> backing covering the adhesive still in place. If your plastic bracket is >> clean looking, it may never have had the panel stuck to it in the first >> place. > Odd...The chap who gave me the rack removed the panel (and the fan, > and the stabiliser feet) for transport and gave me a box with them in. He > commented that as I was putting a PDP8e in it, I'd probably not want the > banner that was there (I am pretty sure that the original contents of this > H960 was some kind of PDP11 system). > > Anyway, spend the day cleaning dust off parts, stripping the fan and power > controller, etc. I did not notice any adhesive residue on the plastic header > panel. And I think I would have done. > > So perhaps the header was blank, or the banner just pushed in (perhaps > somebody forgot to remove the backing paper...). > > -tony > Sounds like the banner plate for my 11T (Qbus 11 in a 50inch rack) the banner holder was such that it could slid in from the end if you took off the plastic end stop. It has the PDP-11 in in the older reds scheme on thin maybe .040" aluminium. Allison From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Mon Dec 26 16:09:17 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 14:09:17 -0800 Subject: LINCtape/DECtape Head Alignment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <107C04CBC4064B9DA90914C81A951A52@Vincew7> From: Michael Thompson: Monday, December 26, 2016 10:08 AM > It would be really convenient > to have one of the Amphenol 133-022-03 connectors from a G851 Relay module > on our amplifier so it would plug directly into the head cable. > > Does anyone have a DEC G851 module that we could remove the connector from? I believe the 133-022-03 to be a fairly standard .156" pitch 22 pin edge single sided edge connector socket. Mouser has the 307-022-505-102 by EDAC in stock for $14.33, as well as some cheaper TE versions with vertical PCB mounting. Would any of those work? Vince From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 27 00:02:19 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 01:02:19 -0500 Subject: DEC banner panel Message-ID: <4a4e6d.20b3ba45.45935deb@aol.com> Re- the PDP-8 one I just scanned.. On the plastic thing on H-960 these metal logo plates stick right into the front into the recess with gummy stuff on the back of the metal. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 12/26/2016 10:56:12 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, ajp166 at verizon.net writes: On 12/26/2016 04:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 9:07 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Dec 26, 2016, at 4:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>> I hadn't realised that they were printed on aluminium. Ouch!. I also >>> don't know how they are fixed to the plastic header panel, my plastic >>> panel is 'empty' and I don't see any adhesive residue. Maybe some >>> kind of double-sided tape? >> No, the aluminum is adhesive-backed (with a rather potent adhesive). >> It's similar to what you see in serial number plates on machinery. I >> have somewhere a PDP-11 banner plate by itself, with the wax paper >> backing covering the adhesive still in place. If your plastic bracket is >> clean looking, it may never have had the panel stuck to it in the first >> place. > Odd...The chap who gave me the rack removed the panel (and the fan, > and the stabiliser feet) for transport and gave me a box with them in. He > commented that as I was putting a PDP8e in it, I'd probably not want the > banner that was there (I am pretty sure that the original contents of this > H960 was some kind of PDP11 system). > > Anyway, spend the day cleaning dust off parts, stripping the fan and power > controller, etc. I did not notice any adhesive residue on the plastic header > panel. And I think I would have done. > > So perhaps the header was blank, or the banner just pushed in (perhaps > somebody forgot to remove the backing paper...). > > -tony > Sounds like the banner plate for my 11T (Qbus 11 in a 50inch rack) the banner holder was such that it could slid in from the end if you took off the plastic end stop. It has the PDP-11 in in the older reds scheme on thin maybe .040" aluminium. Allison From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 00:10:06 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 06:10:06 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: References: <747e29c7-f10f-26a9-195a-5e627c007823@btinternet.com> <324712a0-209b-fff7-3879-7d6f242d624c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 10:48 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> That's going to be 'fun'.. I can see myself making rollers and a frame to >> hold them. And then tryng to get a bit of sheet aluminium, cut it, round >> the corners etc. >> >> -tony > > I'm a bit better resourced. I already have access to whats needed. Price > could be interesting. Price is one reason for doing it myself. I can see this banner ending up as the most expensive part of the system (so far that 'honour' goes to an RX8e board I bought from a reseller about 20 years ago). Another reason is that having rebuilt just about everything else myself, I am not going to be beaten by a decorative panel... -tony From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 27 00:11:13 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 01:11:13 -0500 Subject: DEC banner panel Message-ID: <4a734a.1d02289f.45936001@aol.com> I just sent Rod and Tony 8M metal sign Hi Res check your bad mail folder my AOL ends up there often Rod cam change my 8m scan to say 8E or 8 whatever! so funny... I found this behind a console radio today - I had not seen it in over 20 years It used to be on one of my H-960s that had PDP-8 in it.. fortune it would tun up on a day with some one in need. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 12/26/2016 10:56:04 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, paisley at erols.com writes: > Thanks for the offer. But as yet I don't have a picture. I don't even > know that the banner existed. > All I've seen (and got) are the PDP11 ones. I _assume_ there was one > for PDP8 systems, but > assumptions can be dangerous. Hi Tony. Are you talking about the banner for the main system? Or the second rack? The PDP/8e one looks like this: http://www.employees.org/~kirk/images/pdp8e.jpg A few years ago I had an insert printed out at a local Fast Signs store. I scanned an original that was beat up and created some artwork for the PDP-8e, PDP-11, and a DECSystem10 one (The first 2 were made from actual H960 rack banners. The last one was a whimsical one I created for fun.) I am not at home right now, but I can look to see if I can dig up the art work. I don't have one online of my PDP-8e one, but here are the other ones: http://www.willys-overland.com/rack/100_3452.jpg http://www.willys-overland.com/rack/100_3456.jpg Todd Paisley From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 27 00:14:09 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 01:14:09 -0500 Subject: DEC banner panel Message-ID: <4a7fdc.76fcbb41.459360b1@aol.com> or print it on thick photo paper on a really large printer and glue it in the plastic header for the rack. - Ed# In a message dated 12/26/2016 11:10:12 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com writes: On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 10:48 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> That's going to be 'fun'.. I can see myself making rollers and a frame to >> hold them. And then tryng to get a bit of sheet aluminium, cut it, round >> the corners etc. >> >> -tony > > I'm a bit better resourced. I already have access to whats needed. Price > could be interesting. Price is one reason for doing it myself. I can see this banner ending up as the most expensive part of the system (so far that 'honour' goes to an RX8e board I bought from a reseller about 20 years ago). Another reason is that having rebuilt just about everything else myself, I am not going to be beaten by a decorative panel... -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 00:28:14 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 06:28:14 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel check your filter for the hi res images from scanner In-Reply-To: <1b24f5e.4c44dcd0.459356b8@aol.com> References: <1b24f5e.4c44dcd0.459356b8@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 5:31 AM, wrote: > may times my aol ends in the bucket. if someone can pass this to Rod and > Tony This got to me, as did the scan of the logo panel, -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 00:33:03 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 06:33:03 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: <1238672805.33322941.1482785088580.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> References: <1238672805.33322941.1482785088580.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> Message-ID: > Hi Tony. Are you talking about the banner for the main system? Or the second rack? I assume the main rack. My system will fit in a single H960 (It's the PDP8/e processor, RK05, RX01, TU56 and PC04). FWIW, my 11/45 is a 2-rack system and I only have 'main rack' logo panels for it. I know the second rack should be without text, but I have never done anything about it. > A few years ago I had an insert printed out at a local Fast Signs store. I scanned an > original that was beat up and created some artwork for the PDP-8e, PDP-11, and a > DECSystem10 one (The first 2 were made from actual H960 rack banners. The last > one was a whimsical one I created for fun.) I am not at home right now, but I can look > to see if I can dig up the art work. I don't have one online of my PDP-8e one, but here > are the other ones: > > http://www.willys-overland.com/rack/100_3452.jpg > http://www.willys-overland.com/rack/100_3456.jpg I wonder if a sign shop over here could make one from the artwork. It would be worth asking, although I guess it would be one some kind of plastic substrate not the original aluminium. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 00:35:03 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 06:35:03 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: <1cc45e7e-4454-8859-e0a1-386356e40fce@verizon.net> References: <507F5D5B-FE8A-44DD-B590-0AB7CACC1CA8@shiresoft.com> <08A919EC-1418-4F36-A518-40772090104B@comcast.net> <1cc45e7e-4454-8859-e0a1-386356e40fce@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 9:51 PM, allison wrote: > Sounds like the banner plate for my 11T (Qbus 11 in a 50inch rack) the > banner holder was such that it could slid in from the end if you took > off the plastic end stop. It has the PDP-11 in in the older reds scheme > on thin maybe .040" aluminium. No, this is the normal plastic banner plate from the H960. It seems to be a one piece moulding and the banner would be stuck into the recess on the front. There's no end stop to remove. -tony From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 27 02:56:17 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 09:56:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: Transporting an LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <7F96A6CC-B6A1-4FEF-9993-C1B384847CD0@gmail.com> <8a744900-0d54-9707-0469-d25897a2673a@sydex.com> <13A39183-98F2-40D0-B369-EFC66C72DD66@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Adam Sampson wrote: > "Underhill Engineering Co Ltd" painted on the top in the eBay pictures > (if you squint) is a bit of a giveaway! I was only able to see "Under...". > They have a nice page about the machine's history: > http://www.underhill.ca/land-survey-project/15/underhill-engineering-computing-services Oh, thank you, these are nice pictures :-) Hmm, I don't find Underhill or Vancouver mentioned in the POOL users list. But the list is incomplete. Anyways we would all be interested in the serial number if Cory gets a chance to look it up (at the drum side of the main frame when you open the cover) It's nice to see that another LGP-30 is still alive (at least physically) ;-) Christian From lars at nocrew.org Tue Dec 27 03:12:30 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 10:12:30 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <8E31235F-801F-4AA8-8C51-AE4A3D4B1A8D@kerberos.davies.net.au> (Huw Davies's message of "Mon, 26 Dec 2016 09:53:34 +1100") References: <20161223010135.C662318C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <868tr6sfsy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <864m1uscaw.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <86zijmqxm1.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <8E31235F-801F-4AA8-8C51-AE4A3D4B1A8D@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <8660m5rb0h.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Huw Davies wrote: >> By the way, the Australian ITS called FU is a great mystery. I only >> found it mentioned in the ITS source code. > > Flinders University had a 36 bit system (I?m not sure if it was a KI > or KL). I think they were running TOPS-20 on it. I see in the notes > the they were running ITS on a KS Thank you very much. Yes, it should have been a KS. Do you have anything else in your notes? From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Dec 27 06:04:55 2016 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 23:04:55 +1100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <8660m5rb0h.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <20161223010135.C662318C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <868tr6sfsy.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <864m1uscaw.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <86zijmqxm1.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <8E31235F-801F-4AA8-8C51-AE4A3D4B1A8D@kerberos.davies.net.au> <8660m5rb0h.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <36D5B987-018E-4C23-B669-BEFAFC8B00D1@kerberos.davies.net.au> > On 27 Dec 2016, at 20:12, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > Huw Davies wrote: >> >> Flinders University had a 36 bit system (I?m not sure if it was a KI >> or KL). I think they were running TOPS-20 on it. I see in the notes >> the they were running ITS on a KS > > Thank you very much. Yes, it should have been a KS. Do you have > anything else in your notes? Sorry, I don?t have anything more about Flinders. I?ll see if any of my contacts have any more details. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Dec 27 06:39:31 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 13:39:31 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <20161223205609.121F818C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161223205609.121F818C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161227123931.GE5974@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 03:56:09PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > ISTR that they actually got the KL to work, but I don't know what the current > status of the whole works is. (Me, if I'd taken a KA, I would have taken a > second one for spares! The parts in that thing are _seriously_ obscure. :-) > I wouldn't be surprised if Peter have them all: http://www.stupi.se/Bilder/pdp-10/ I've seen pictures from when he ran a three CPU KI10 setup! /P From sales at elecplus.com Tue Dec 27 07:36:19 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 07:36:19 -0600 Subject: Refurb Panasonic and Okidata dot matrix Message-ID: <00a401d26046$352f8690$9f8e93b0$@com> 1 OKIDATA ML320 5 OKIDATA ML321 1 OKIDATA ML320 TURBO 1 OKIDATA 390 TURBO 1 PANASONIC KX-PP1123 I know that some people were looking for dot matrix printers. This fellow has refurbished units in stock that he is looking to clear out. Not affiliated with the seller, and I have not dealt with him before. Nick Ratansi CAO, Inc tel 718 939 7976 dir 718 886 2025 Nick at compuaddons.com Cindy Croxton From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Dec 27 08:11:56 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 14:11:56 +0000 Subject: Rack Headers, banners or whatever you call them. Message-ID: <702d354f-88ad-2f34-8550-f94793c7c024@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Based on the 8/m rack header scan that came in overnight I have done a quick Inkscape artwork. Its not production quality, sized or color matched but ok for a prototype. Printed on aluminium or decal and roll out the air should be possible. Rod From rickb at bensene.com Tue Dec 27 09:15:29 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 07:15:29 -0800 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: References: <507F5D5B-FE8A-44DD-B590-0AB7CACC1CA8@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A59E@mail.bensene.com> Tony D. wrote: >I hadn't realized that they were printed on aluminium. Ouch!. I also don't know how they are fixed to the plastic header panel, my plastic panel is 'empty' and I >don't see any adhesive residue. Maybe some kind of double-sided tape? >I wonder if something could be done with a good photograph of the panel? >Obviously I am not asking anyone to damage or risk damaging their machines for this. I am in the same situation as Tony with my PDP 8/e system. My system originally came with a blank black panel at the top, that had a rotary switch placed in the center which would allow remapping of the three RK05 drives to different unit numbers. It also came with an additional "blank" black panel (no sign of any adhesive residue either). I'd love to have the correct insert for the blank panel to put at the top of the rack. If anyone (Rod S. (aka Panelman) seems a great possibility) ends up making something that is reasonably accurate and looks good, I'd sign up to buy one straight away. -Rick --- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 10:02:11 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 16:02:11 +0000 Subject: DEC banner panel In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A59E@mail.bensene.com> References: <507F5D5B-FE8A-44DD-B590-0AB7CACC1CA8@shiresoft.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A59E@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > I am in the same situation as Tony with my PDP 8/e system. My system originally > came with a blank black panel at the top, that had a rotary switch placed in the center > which would allow remapping of the three RK05 drives to different unit numbers. It > also came with an additional "blank" black panel (no sign of any adhesive residue > either). I'd love to have the correct insert for the blank panel to put at the top of the rack. Replying to various comments all at once.... I've had another careful look at the black plastic panel. There may be a little adhesive residue on it but not much, and if it is, it looks like the sort of glue on double-sided tape. So perhaps a non-DEC banner was put there by a previous owner. The recess measures 18+1/2" by 3+5/16". Just so we all agree on what is needed. That was measured with a steel tape measure, nothing more accurate. > > If anyone (Rod S. (aka Panelman) seems a great possibility) ends up making something > that is reasonably accurate and looks good, I'd sign up to buy one straight away. I would too, unless the price is _ridiculous_. Any idea what the price would be? -tony From lars at nocrew.org Tue Dec 27 10:47:26 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 17:47:26 +0100 Subject: PDP-6s at MIT In-Reply-To: <86shpeqp4y.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff's message of "Fri, 23 Dec 2016 23:03:41 +0100") References: <20161223205609.121F818C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <86shpeqp4y.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <86zijhpbdt.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: >Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >> Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> Swedes showed up at MIT with a shipping container (perhaps under the >>> mistaken impression that Cambridge was Lindisfarne ;-), and loaded the >>> KL into it, along with, IIRC, one of the KA ITS machines - possibly >>> AI? >> >> I have this on AI: >> >>> the semi-original AI (that is, the KA-10 rather than the PDP-6) was >>> flushed 3 years ago. the hardware was given to a bunch of hackers from >>> Concourse > Oh, right, now that you mention it, I very vaguely recall this. I'm > not sure why I thought they had taken a KA too - I think I may have > been confused by this email: Well, apparently Michael Patton asked GILL at AI: > The Swedes are here picking up the KL-10. They have a really big > container and are interested in other things they might pick up. They > expressed some interest in the old MIT-AI KA-10 that you have in > storage. Can they have it? Do you want to arrange some time for them > to come get it, or can I just do it? So maybe they got it after all! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 27 13:05:58 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 14:05:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-6s at MIT Message-ID: <20161227190558.361C918C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff >> They expressed some interest in the old MIT-AI KA-10 that you have in >> storage. Can they have it? > So maybe they got it after all! So perhaps my memory is not so bad after all! :-) Or maybe I was just remembering the discussion of them possibly getting it? The real thing to do is check directly with those guys, rather than examining tea entrails. Howwever, if my memory is accurate, there perhaps might be, in those pictures: http://www.stupi.se/Bilder/pdp-10/ some evidence that they did get it: in the row above the bottom, the picture on the left seems to me like it might be a picture of the HIC-memory for AI. But now that I look close, maybe it's just a CADR? The picture to the right of that one shows what looks like a CADR (they had those giant swing-out monolithic bays on the front which are the CPU - the AI Lab build a cool robot to check the wirewrap when they went into production on the CADRs), and so that may be the front of the same rack as that one before (which would therefore be of the back of that CADR). Noel From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 27 19:41:23 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 17:41:23 -0800 Subject: an edible apple Message-ID: <93DF28A0-67FB-4854-9668-54E80AA9E97D@cs.ubc.ca> https://imgur.com/a/JNp7m From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Dec 27 19:47:35 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 20:47:35 -0500 Subject: an edible apple In-Reply-To: <93DF28A0-67FB-4854-9668-54E80AA9E97D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <93DF28A0-67FB-4854-9668-54E80AA9E97D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: That's pretty cool. Love it. Rich Cini Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 27, 2016, at 8:41 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > https://imgur.com/a/JNp7m > From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 20:56:13 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 20:56:13 -0600 Subject: an edible apple In-Reply-To: References: <93DF28A0-67FB-4854-9668-54E80AA9E97D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: It's nice that they had so much free time on their hands, during our often overburdened Holiday Season. (I think the 5-1/4" floppy disk is the best of the lot.. I'd like to see her do a box of ten..) On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > That's pretty cool. Love it. > > Rich Cini > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Dec 27, 2016, at 8:41 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > https://imgur.com/a/JNp7m > > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 27 22:48:21 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 23:48:21 -0500 Subject: an edible apple Message-ID: <1cb3624.27577d13.45949e15@aol.com> Well done! Perhaps glass case it to keep it around? How many hours into the project? I am impressed! Ed# In a message dated 12/27/2016 6:41:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, hilpert at cs.ubc.ca writes: https://imgur.com/a/JNp7m From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 28 00:55:26 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 22:55:26 -0800 Subject: an edible apple In-Reply-To: <1cb3624.27577d13.45949e15@aol.com> References: <1cb3624.27577d13.45949e15@aol.com> Message-ID: On 2016-Dec-27, at 8:48 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > Well done! > Perhaps glass case it to keep it around? > How many hours into the project? > I am impressed! > Ed# > > In a message dated 12/27/2016 6:41:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, hilpert at cs.ubc.ca writes: > https://imgur.com/a/JNp7m Oh, it's not my effort, sorry if that wasn't clear, I was just providing the link, a friend directed me to it. It's being being mentioned on various sites like gizmodo et al. http://gizmodo.com/this-gingerbread-apple-ii-computer-is-perfectly-edible-1790410311 Apparently the creator is "HaHaBird?s Nathan Pryor", who also did this: http://gizmodo.com/turn-a-broken-1986-macintosh-plus-into-an-amusing-trash-1757398260 From paisley at erols.com Tue