From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 1 01:05:08 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 23:05:08 -0700 Subject: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough to count? In-Reply-To: References: <20160731162357.GA11329@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <9eecba27-9f2c-5174-8c4c-26b9d593bb58@sydex.com> On 07/31/2016 09:30 PM, jim stephens wrote: > If anyone on the list has it, I think there was a very detailed > walkthru about how this worked published as well, again I think it > was in a book, and may be hard to find. One of the "inside" or > "beneath" type books. Maybe someone has such with the info. I've probably got it on one of the MSDN "white papers", but it'd take me a while to plod through all those CD's. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 01:39:48 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 00:39:48 -0600 Subject: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough to count? In-Reply-To: References: <20160731162357.GA11329@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 12:21 PM, jim stephens wrote: > I used Windows 95 for dos multitasking. Windows 95 booted the processors > into real mode dos, then ran the windows system out of that base dos much > like Windows 3.1 had. As such, the dos boxes all shared actual access to > the real mode assets of the processor. > > Windows 98 switched to protected mode almost immediately on boot, and all > the dos boxes were synthesized in virtual 8086 mapped mode, and had no > underlying booted dos environment. Both Windows 95 and Windows 98 do what you describe for Windows 98. Both 95 and 98 can boot to DOS only, in real mode, but then you don't get any GUI. In both 95 and 98, when you run the GUI, any DOS programs you run are in virtual 8086 mode. I know more than I really want to about this, because at one job I had the misfortune of having to write VxDs to provide services to those DOS windows, specifically because they couldn't run normal real mode drivers to talk to hardware. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 1 02:30:24 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 02:30:24 -0500 Subject: "non-polar" capacitor? In-Reply-To: <0891A682-7A0C-4591-BB7F-1B1FB5FD6D92@platinum.net> References: <0891A682-7A0C-4591-BB7F-1B1FB5FD6D92@platinum.net> Message-ID: <6fc628b8-3f17-3ce4-0c65-ca25ce3834f6@jbrain.com> On 7/31/2016 12:37 AM, Ian McLaughlin wrote: > Jim, > > These are non-polarized (or bi-polar) electrolytics. An example is the following digikey part number: 493-12697-3-ND > > You can always whip one up out of your junk box - just put 2 normal (polarized) electrolytic in series with the polarities alternating (for example, connect the two positives together). Each capacitor has to be twice the value of the result - so for example, to replace a 1uF 50v non-polarized, you can put two 2uF in series. > > Hope this helps. > > Ian Thank you (and Chuck) for the response. I guess it brings up more questions for me: * Why would Tandy spec such a cap in the design? * As I look at the specifications of the design, it looks like the rest of the design assume mac .250W of power on the audio line (given the selection of resistor networks and other parts) . I noticed the Digikey unit you referenced has 17mA of ripple current capability. I realize audio is not truly a ripple current, but the disparity between 17mA and 250mW seems like a problem... (Again, my analog is severely rusty, so maybe I am looking at this wrong. I spent all night trying to find a way to determine the power of a R2R ladder given 5V logic and 8mA output drive of the 74ls374 IC, to no avail, so maybe I am looking at this wrong) o you'd think with the prevalence of R2R ladder logic, someone would have whipped up a power calculator, if nothing else, to determine the wattage of the resistors in the R2R, but I came up empty... I'll have to either calculate it longhand by summing all of the currents or sim it; not sure I can assume that since the effective impedence is 10K, the amperage would be .5mA @ 5V and thus the power would be 2.5mW Sometimes, I wish I'd cared more about analog in college... Jim From lproven at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 02:47:48 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 09:47:48 +0200 Subject: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough to count? In-Reply-To: References: <20160731162357.GA11329@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 1 August 2016 at 08:39, Eric Smith wrote: > Both Windows 95 and Windows 98 do what you describe for Windows 98. > Both 95 and 98 can boot to DOS only, in real mode, but then you don't > get any GUI. In both 95 and 98, when you run the GUI, any DOS programs > you run are in virtual 8086 mode. > > I know more than I really want to about this, because at one job I had > the misfortune of having to write VxDs to provide services to those > DOS windows, specifically because they couldn't run normal real mode > drivers to talk to hardware. Exactly! This! All versions of W9x run in 386 protected mode, with DOS sessions in the 386's Virtual 8086 mode. There was no difference that I'm aware of between them. Between WfWg 3.11 and 9x, yes. Between 9x and NT, yes. But 95/98/ME, no, TTBOMK. If there _was_ some difference, [a] it was lept _very_ quiet, and [b], I want to know! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 03:03:29 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 03:03:29 -0500 Subject: "non-polar" capacitor? In-Reply-To: <6fc628b8-3f17-3ce4-0c65-ca25ce3834f6@jbrain.com> References: <0891A682-7A0C-4591-BB7F-1B1FB5FD6D92@platinum.net> <6fc628b8-3f17-3ce4-0c65-ca25ce3834f6@jbrain.com> Message-ID: It's pretty simple, really. Non-polar caps are used in locations where they must pass AC. Film caps (of various constructions) are practical until the values exceed a few uF. Once you need more than a few uF of non-polar capacitance, it's time to look at NP electrolytics, as they are the cheapest route to a large-ish value without the polarity issue. Film caps (in the 63-350V range) are available in values as large as 10uF, 22uF, 47,uF and even 100uF - or more. But those are usually high-priced specialty audio parts, for things like speaker crossovers and output coupling caps in some audio preamp circuits. A non-polar electrolytic is nothing more than a pair of normal (polar) electrolytics, with the negative (-) leads tied together. There is no difference between a (nominal) 10uF non-polar and a pair of 22uF polars tied neg to neg. Pos to pos works just as well, but it's just not the standard for a very good reason.. think about how a standard electrolytic cap case is built & sealed.. On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 2:30 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 7/31/2016 12:37 AM, Ian McLaughlin wrote: > >> Jim, >> >> These are non-polarized (or bi-polar) electrolytics. An example is the >> following digikey part number: 493-12697-3-ND >> >> You can always whip one up out of your junk box - just put 2 normal >> (polarized) electrolytic in series with the polarities alternating (for >> example, connect the two positives together). Each capacitor has to be >> twice the value of the result - so for example, to replace a 1uF 50v >> non-polarized, you can put two 2uF in series. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> Ian >> > Thank you (and Chuck) for the response. > > I guess it brings up more questions for me: > > * Why would Tandy spec such a cap in the design? > * As I look at the specifications of the design, it looks like the > rest of the design assume mac .250W of power on the audio line > (given the selection of resistor networks and other parts) . I > noticed the Digikey unit you referenced has 17mA of ripple current > capability. I realize audio is not truly a ripple current, but the > disparity between 17mA and 250mW seems like a problem... (Again, my > analog is severely rusty, so maybe I am looking at this wrong. I > spent all night trying to find a way to determine the power of a R2R > ladder given 5V logic and 8mA output drive of the 74ls374 IC, to no > avail, so maybe I am looking at this wrong) > o you'd think with the prevalence of R2R ladder logic, someone > would have whipped up a power calculator, if nothing else, to > determine the wattage of the resistors in the R2R, but I came up > empty... I'll have to either calculate it longhand by summing > all of the currents or sim it; not sure I can assume that since > the effective impedence is 10K, the amperage would be .5mA @ 5V > and thus the power would be 2.5mW > > Sometimes, I wish I'd cared more about analog in college... > > Jim > > > > From other at oryx.us Mon Aug 1 03:47:17 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 03:47:17 -0500 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' Message-ID: <579F0C95.50900@oryx.us> Shared secondarily as a discussion item, but presented as a detail from a discussion with another list member as a discussion detail I couldn't find at the moment. This data is not new and dates to 2008. Jerry From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Aug 1 05:06:22 2016 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:06:22 +1000 Subject: Mall directory computers In-Reply-To: References: <0f8a01d1dd76$dba4dff0$92ee9fd0$@bettercomputing.net> <000001d1eafa$f67c7450$e3755cf0$@internode.on.net> <000001d1eaff$467a5f40$d36f1dc0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <006601d1ebdc$5bb7f510$1327df30$@internode.on.net> I'm not exactly sure - it was one of those things that someone gave me and I put it away - my policy is grab first and ask questions later so it doesn't become landfill. I have tried to research this based on info from another reply but no joy. I might open it up and see if there are any clues inside. My understanding was that it was connected to a large flat panel monitor and just used for displaying advertisements and specials etc. It has a floppy disk "jammed" in the floppy drive which won't come out - not sure why. Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of drlegendre . Sent: Monday, 1 August 2016 09:41 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mall directory computers It's not +just+ an A500. What's the extra hardware piggybacked on the A500 case? Looks to have a set of six RCA (F) type jacks on it. Is this for connection of a touchscreen display? On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 2:43 AM, Kevin Parker wrote: > Thanks for the clarity and the extra info - as I said I haven?t > opened it or fired it up much less had a good look at it. > > > > Kevin Parker > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian > Finder > Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2016 17:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Mall directory computers > > That is certainly not a C= 64 as the title in your link suggests but > rather an Amiga 500. > > These were quite popular for "video billboard" sort of purposes- I > imagine they had it running SCALAMultimedia or a similar authoring environment. > > My local high school district channel ran on a similar setup for many > years. I recall seeing it stuck on the Amiga Workbench one day... > > On Sunday, July 31, 2016, Kevin Parker wrote: > > > Just spotted this Brad clearing up email after a 4 week break. I > > can't answer your question but it reminded me of something that > > other list users may be able to help with or it might just be of interest. > > > > Quite some time ago a friend of mine bought a travel agent in a > > shopping mall, did a refit of the shop and then later went bust. > > Fortunately before the refit and going bust he gave me his old shop > > display which was run on a modified Commodore. > > > > I haven't opened it up or powered it up but if anyone knows what > > this is I'd be grateful. I've posted some photos: > > > > > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/shop-mall-comm > > od > > ore-64/ > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] > > On Behalf Of Brad H > > Sent: Thursday, 14 July 2016 12:25 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Mall directory computers > > > > Been wondering about this for a while. Just one of those odd childhood > > memories. > > > > > > > > When I was a kid growing up in Oakville, Ontario, I remember > > Oakville Mall getting one of those very early mall directory computers. > > This would have been like, 1982-84, somewhere thereabouts. From > > what I remember, they had kind of CGA-sh graphics and a chiclet 'keyboard' > > you used to browse the directory. I'm wondering, were they just > > PCs, most likely? Or some kind of custom job? > > > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > > From radiotest at juno.com Mon Aug 1 06:08:41 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 07:08:41 -0400 Subject: "non-polar" capacitor? In-Reply-To: References: <0891A682-7A0C-4591-BB7F-1B1FB5FD6D92@platinum.net> <6fc628b8-3f17-3ce4-0c65-ca25ce3834f6@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160801065447.03e2d458@juno.com> At 04:03 AM 8/1/2016, drlegendre wrote: >Non-polar caps are used in locations where they must pass AC. Conventional polarized aluminum and tantalum capacitors are also used in locations where they must pass AC, such as interstage coupling capacitors and bypass capacitors, not to mention electrolytics as power supply filter capacitors. Any capacitor that could not pass AC would not be a capacitor. There are two principal situations where non-polar electrolytics are used: 1) When there is no constant DC offset to the applied voltage - if the voltage applied to an electrolytic capacitor reverses the capacitor can be damaged. When there is no constant DC offset the second reason can come into play: 2) When a large value non-polarized electrolytic can, as previously noted, cost less than a large film, oil-filled, or other non-polar capacitor. Some of us still deal daily with analog circuitry at work. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 1 10:03:55 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 08:03:55 -0700 Subject: Why classiccmp is awesome [junk spots to visit] In-Reply-To: <0eee4280-cbba-bcc7-ffed-722953307d33@sbcglobal.net> References: <201607272216.SAA11572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201607272229.SAA17767@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0eee4280-cbba-bcc7-ffed-722953307d33@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 7/31/16 9:39 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Halted was open as of last Thursday. > They moved to a smaller store space. Unfortunately, that meant that things like their good selection of edge connectors aren't out any more. Excess Solutions in San Jose is good mostly for parts. They've got random bits of hardware and test equipment. At least as of Saturday, they were having a half off sale. ACE Electronics and Anchor are still around for parts, too. http://www.junktronix.com/svss/ but the list is dwindling From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 1 10:23:09 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 08:23:09 -0700 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <579F0C95.50900@oryx.us> References: <579F0C95.50900@oryx.us> Message-ID: <10bf7ea9-8d65-38ba-a8e6-2c1d6ee1504a@bitsavers.org> http://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/introducing.gif On 8/1/16 1:47 AM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Shared secondarily as a discussion item, but presented as a detail from a discussion with another list member as a > discussion detail I couldn't find at the moment. > > > This data is not new and dates to 2008. > > > > > > > > > > Jerry From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 10:26:30 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 11:26:30 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II (Doug) In-Reply-To: <816ae872-fb56-1fae-78ab-bf75421480b9@comcast.net> References: <8ba5eae4-5af0-4016-544b-a9c7bfd0ad41@crash.com> <86958d5a-86df-7903-fa5e-321479b6a187@comcast.net> <816ae872-fb56-1fae-78ab-bf75421480b9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01b0376f-efb7-49fe-beb7-2ce904e1c497@yahoo.com> On 7/31/2016 10:38 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > That sounds good. BTW, where do I go to get the VMS hobbyist license > PAKS and downloads? I'm running into dead links. > > Doug Things recently (last few months) changed and the OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses are now handled by the HPE office in India. The URL for the application is When you choose a chapter for "Participating Chapter" choose "DECUSERVE" if you don't belong to one. Then telnet (no SSH) to eisner.decuserve.com where you will get a login page and choose the "REGISTRATION" option. This will get you a DECUS member number that you can supply for the hobbyist license. Once you are logged into the system you can find your membership number by typing the command "HOBBYIST" Once you get your reply from HPE then you can also reply to that email and ask for the FTP credentials to download a VMS 7.3 VAX install disk image or Alpha or IA64 for that matter - just ask for all that you want. Remember that when you apply it is going to India so plan for the timezone and weekend change accordingly. John H. Reinhardt From ethan at 757.org Mon Aug 1 11:27:50 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 12:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Why classiccmp is awesome [junk spots to visit] In-Reply-To: References: <201607272216.SAA11572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201607272229.SAA17767@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0eee4280-cbba-bcc7-ffed-722953307d33@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > but the list is dwindling The rent is too high. -- Ethan O'Toole From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 1 11:56:23 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 09:56:23 -0700 Subject: "non-polar" capacitor? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160801065447.03e2d458@juno.com> References: <0891A682-7A0C-4591-BB7F-1B1FB5FD6D92@platinum.net> <6fc628b8-3f17-3ce4-0c65-ca25ce3834f6@jbrain.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160801065447.03e2d458@juno.com> Message-ID: On 08/01/2016 04:08 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > 1) When there is no constant DC offset to the applied voltage - if > the voltage applied to an electrolytic capacitor reverses the > capacitor can be damaged. When there is no constant DC offset the > second reason can come into play: > > 2) When a large value non-polarized electrolytic can, as previously > noted, cost less than a large film, oil-filled, or other non-polar > capacitor. > > Some of us still deal daily with analog circuitry at work. There's one other aspect that I believe is germane to this particular application: Linearity. Aluminum electrolytic capacitors are very curious beasts--they're not all capacitance, but rather operate as several different "pure" properties hooked in series. Most people here know about ESR, but there's another one--wet aluminum dielectrics also function as if they had a leaky diode in series with the series resistance and capacitance. This is a result of the way they're constructed--basically two aluminum foil strips, separated by a membrane (often paper) saturated with an electrolyte (commonly borax). A DC current is applied to "form" the capacitor and establish its polarity. Probably nobody here is old enough to remember liquid rectifiers, but my own father related them to me (he grew up in a poor family during the teens and 20s). The idea was that you took a plate of aluminum and a plate of tin, lead or other metal and immersed them in a solution of sodium bicarbonate, borax or some other electrolyte (dad used ammonium sulfate, a waste product of the nearby steel mills' coke ovens, and ran an AC current through them. Eventually, the device polarized and formed a hydroxide/oxide layer on the aluminum and developed a preference to current direction. The sparkbangbuzz website has some interesting observations on this animal. For use in audio circuits, this "series diode" effect can lead to distortion, hence the use of a non-polar device. Take an aluminum electrolytic and put it on your curve tracer and the effect is quite visible. For what it's worth, I don't know if tantalum caps exhibit the same behavior, but I suspect that they do. --Chuck From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 1 12:32:49 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 10:32:49 -0700 Subject: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 Message-ID: Just thought I'd send out another shout out to anyone who might have one of these or is familiar with them. ?I've had this a while but have not really been able to use it, lacking a boot disk. ?It also doesn't have the standard MSIBUG ROM. ?I'm hoping maybe someone out there knows how I could procure the original ROMs and put this back to stock. I made a video showing the current 'WEEBUG' ROM in case any are curious or someone out there knows about it. Thanks! https://youtu.be/LY7yoAVxSrM Sent from my Samsung device From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 13:22:43 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 11:22:43 -0700 Subject: Mall directory computers In-Reply-To: <006601d1ebdc$5bb7f510$1327df30$@internode.on.net> References: <0f8a01d1dd76$dba4dff0$92ee9fd0$@bettercomputing.net> <000001d1eafa$f67c7450$e3755cf0$@internode.on.net> <000001d1eaff$467a5f40$d36f1dc0$@internode.on.net> <006601d1ebdc$5bb7f510$1327df30$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: you should certainly open it up and remove the battery. I would guess the add on shell is a power supply, video modulator of some kind, and possibly a hard drive controller. On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:06 AM, Kevin Parker wrote: > I'm not exactly sure - it was one of those things that someone gave me and > I put it away - my policy is grab first and ask questions later so it > doesn't become landfill. > > I have tried to research this based on info from another reply but no joy. > > I might open it up and see if there are any clues inside. > > My understanding was that it was connected to a large flat panel monitor > and just used for displaying advertisements and specials etc. It has a > floppy disk "jammed" in the floppy drive which won't come out - not sure > why. > > > > Kevin Parker > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > drlegendre . > Sent: Monday, 1 August 2016 09:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Mall directory computers > > It's not +just+ an A500. What's the extra hardware piggybacked on the A500 > case? > > Looks to have a set of six RCA (F) type jacks on it. Is this for > connection of a touchscreen display? > > On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 2:43 AM, Kevin Parker > wrote: > > > Thanks for the clarity and the extra info - as I said I haven?t > > opened it or fired it up much less had a good look at it. > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian > > Finder > > Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2016 17:28 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: Re: Mall directory computers > > > > That is certainly not a C= 64 as the title in your link suggests but > > rather an Amiga 500. > > > > These were quite popular for "video billboard" sort of purposes- I > > imagine they had it running SCALAMultimedia or a similar authoring > environment. > > > > My local high school district channel ran on a similar setup for many > > years. I recall seeing it stuck on the Amiga Workbench one day... > > > > On Sunday, July 31, 2016, Kevin Parker wrote: > > > > > Just spotted this Brad clearing up email after a 4 week break. I > > > can't answer your question but it reminded me of something that > > > other list users may be able to help with or it might just be of > interest. > > > > > > Quite some time ago a friend of mine bought a travel agent in a > > > shopping mall, did a refit of the shop and then later went bust. > > > Fortunately before the refit and going bust he gave me his old shop > > > display which was run on a modified Commodore. > > > > > > I haven't opened it up or powered it up but if anyone knows what > > > this is I'd be grateful. I've posted some photos: > > > > > > > > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/shop-mall-comm > > > od > > > ore-64/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] > > > On Behalf Of Brad H > > > Sent: Thursday, 14 July 2016 12:25 > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Subject: Mall directory computers > > > > > > Been wondering about this for a while. Just one of those odd > childhood > > > memories. > > > > > > > > > > > > When I was a kid growing up in Oakville, Ontario, I remember > > > Oakville Mall getting one of those very early mall directory computers. > > > This would have been like, 1982-84, somewhere thereabouts. From > > > what I remember, they had kind of CGA-sh graphics and a chiclet > 'keyboard' > > > you used to browse the directory. I'm wondering, were they just > > > PCs, most likely? Or some kind of custom job? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > (206) 395-MIPS > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From cliendo at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 13:37:18 2016 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 14:37:18 -0400 Subject: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shout right back! I have one but I haven't really played with it. On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Brad H wrote: > Just thought I'd send out another shout out to anyone who might have one of these or is familiar with them. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 1 13:57:23 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 11:57:23 -0700 Subject: Why classiccmp is awesome [junk spots to visit] In-Reply-To: References: <201607272216.SAA11572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201607272229.SAA17767@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0eee4280-cbba-bcc7-ffed-722953307d33@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <2a552923-26f8-7712-4ae1-295fc0f1e664@bitsavers.org> That's one thing, and California's inventory tax, and the fact that almost no manufacturing is done here, and eBay killing off walk-in sales, and recyclers with required destruct, and on and on.. The "Foothill" flea-market is a shadow of what it was in the past. On 8/1/16 9:27 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> but the list is dwindling > > The rent is too high. > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 13:57:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 14:57:23 -0400 Subject: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > Shout right back! I have one but I haven't really played with it. > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Brad H > wrote: > > Just thought I'd send out another shout out to anyone who might have one > of these or is familiar with them. > I would think you could put a SWTPc ROM board in there, right? Just use mikibug. I thought the cards were interchangable, or am I not thinking of the right thing? -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 13:57:52 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 14:57:52 -0400 Subject: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: COSAM sells new reproductions for SWTPc btw. On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 2:57 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Christian Liendo > wrote: > >> Shout right back! I have one but I haven't really played with it. >> >> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Brad H >> wrote: >> > Just thought I'd send out another shout out to anyone who might have >> one of these or is familiar with them. >> > > > I would think you could put a SWTPc ROM board in there, right? Just use > mikibug. I thought the cards were interchangable, or am I not thinking of > the right thing? > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > > > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 14:00:45 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 14:00:45 -0500 Subject: Why classiccmp is awesome [junk spots to visit] In-Reply-To: <2a552923-26f8-7712-4ae1-295fc0f1e664@bitsavers.org> References: <201607272216.SAA11572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201607272229.SAA17767@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0eee4280-cbba-bcc7-ffed-722953307d33@sbcglobal.net> <2a552923-26f8-7712-4ae1-295fc0f1e664@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20160801190045.GF90673@gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 01, 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > That's one thing, and California's inventory tax, and the > fact that almost no manufacturing is done here, and eBay > killing off walk-in sales, and recyclers with required > destruct, and on and on.. The "Foothill" flea-market is > a shadow of what it was in the past. > > On 8/1/16 9:27 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > >> but the list is dwindling > > > > The rent is too high. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent_Is_Too_Damn_High_Party -- Eric Christopherson From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 1 14:06:08 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 12:06:08 -0700 Subject: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 Message-ID: I had thought of locating original MIKBUG roms but can't tell for sure if it would work. ?The system has four EROM sockets and they are all occupied.. first two by this WEEBUG thing. Finding SWTPC ROMs would be difficult. ?I am getting an original 6800 machine next week but I'm loathe to mess with it too much. From what I've read MSI were one of the more popular ss50 systems. ?But yeah.. next to nothing out there about them. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: william degnan Date: 2016-08-01 11:57 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 COSAM sells new reproductions for SWTPc btw. On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 2:57 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Christian Liendo > wrote: > >> Shout right back! I have one but I haven't really played with it. >> >> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Brad H >> wrote: >> > Just thought I'd send out another shout out to anyone who might have >> one of these or is familiar with them. >> > > > I would think you could put a SWTPc ROM board in there, right?? Just use > mikibug.? I thought the cards were interchangable, or am I not thinking of > the right thing? > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > > > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 1 14:08:35 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 12:08:35 -0700 Subject: Mall directory computers Message-ID: I've been searching the dim recesses of my mind trying to remember the one at Oakville. ?As I recalled the graphics output was quite slow.. it'd draw shapes individually and then fill in. ?And the color was not great. ?Must have been a CGA PC or some derivative. ?This would have been around 1982-1983. ?I just remember being fascinated as a kid pushing buttons and having stores and locations of things show up. ?For early 1980s it was a pretty cool idea vs the big directory board you had to look all over. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Ian Finder Date: 2016-08-01 11:22 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Mall directory computers you should certainly open it up and remove the battery. I would guess the add on shell is a power supply, video modulator of some kind, and possibly a hard drive controller. On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:06 AM, Kevin Parker wrote: > I'm not exactly sure - it was one of those things that someone gave me and > I put it away - my policy is grab first and ask questions later so it > doesn't become landfill. > > I have tried to research this based on info from another reply but no joy. > > I might open it up and see if there are any clues inside. > > My understanding was that it was connected to a large flat panel monitor > and just used for displaying advertisements and specials etc. It has a > floppy disk "jammed" in the floppy drive which won't come out - not sure > why. > > > > Kevin Parker > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > drlegendre . > Sent: Monday, 1 August 2016 09:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Mall directory computers > > It's not +just+ an A500. What's the extra hardware piggybacked on the A500 > case? > > Looks to have a set of six RCA (F) type jacks on it. Is this for > connection of a touchscreen display? > > On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 2:43 AM, Kevin Parker > wrote: > > > Thanks for the clarity and the extra info? - as I said I haven?t > > opened it or fired it up much less had a good look at it. > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian > > Finder > > Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2016 17:28 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: Re: Mall directory computers > > > > That is certainly not a C= 64 as the title in your link suggests but > > rather an Amiga 500. > > > > These were quite popular for "video billboard" sort of purposes- I > > imagine they had it running SCALAMultimedia or a similar authoring > environment. > > > > My local high school district channel ran on a similar setup for many > > years. I recall seeing it stuck on the Amiga Workbench one day... > > > > On Sunday, July 31, 2016, Kevin Parker wrote: > > > > > Just spotted this Brad clearing up email after a 4 week break. I > > > can't answer your question but it reminded me of something that > > > other list users may be able to help with or it might just be of > interest. > > > > > > Quite some time ago a friend of mine bought a travel agent in a > > > shopping mall, did a refit of the shop and then later went bust. > > > Fortunately before the refit and going bust he gave me his old shop > > > display which was run on a modified Commodore. > > > > > > I haven't opened it up or powered it up but if anyone knows what > > > this is I'd be grateful. I've posted some photos: > > > > > > > > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/shop-mall-comm > > > od > > > ore-64/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] > > > On Behalf Of Brad H > > > Sent: Thursday, 14 July 2016 12:25 > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Subject: Mall directory computers > > > > > > Been wondering about this for a while.?? Just one of those odd > childhood > > > memories. > > > > > > > > > > > > When I was a kid growing up in Oakville, Ontario, I remember > > > Oakville Mall getting one of those very early mall directory computers. > > > This would have been like, 1982-84, somewhere thereabouts.? From > > > what I remember, they had kind of CGA-sh graphics and a chiclet > 'keyboard' > > > you used to browse the directory.? I'm wondering, were they just > > > PCs, most likely?? Or some kind of custom job? > > > > > > > > > > -- > >??? Ian Finder > >??? (206) 395-MIPS > >??? ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > > -- ?? Ian Finder ?? (206) 395-MIPS ?? ian.finder at gmail.com From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 1 14:12:54 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 12:12:54 -0700 Subject: Mall directory computers Message-ID: <293iaqtg761eua018hw6vvqs.1470078774765@email.android.com> You know.. come to think of it.. it might have been something like this software I used to play with obsessively as a kid. ?My Dad had it for our PC. ?I completely forgrt the name. ?It was a CGA graphics proto-Powerpoint kind of deal. ?You could draw pictures, graphs etc.. and it also had clip art. ?You could do fade ins and outs and other effects. ?I think we had it later on.. 85 or after. ?But the colors and way it drew graphics was similar. ?And I think you could hotkey it to go to specific 'slides'. ?The mall computer just had a series of buttons alongside the screen from what I remember. ?Could have been rigged up to replicate certain keys. ? Wish I could remember the program name.. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Brad H Date: 2016-08-01 12:08 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Mall directory computers ??? I've been searching the dim recesses of my mind trying to remember the one at Oakville. ?As I recalled the graphics output was quite slow.. it'd draw shapes individually and then fill in. ?And the color was not great. ?Must have been a CGA PC or some derivative. ?This would have been around 1982-1983. ?I just remember being fascinated as a kid pushing buttons and having stores and locations of things show up. ?For early 1980s it was a pretty cool idea vs the big directory board you had to look all over. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Ian Finder Date: 2016-08-01? 11:22 AM? (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Mall directory computers you should certainly open it up and remove the battery. I would guess the add on shell is a power supply, video modulator of some kind, and possibly a hard drive controller. On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:06 AM, Kevin Parker wrote: > I'm not exactly sure - it was one of those things that someone gave me and > I put it away - my policy is grab first and ask questions later so it > doesn't become landfill. > > I have tried to research this based on info from another reply but no joy. > > I might open it up and see if there are any clues inside. > > My understanding was that it was connected to a large flat panel monitor > and just used for displaying advertisements and specials etc. It has a > floppy disk "jammed" in the floppy drive which won't come out - not sure > why. > > > > Kevin Parker > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > drlegendre . > Sent: Monday, 1 August 2016 09:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Mall directory computers > > It's not +just+ an A500. What's the extra hardware piggybacked on the A500 > case? > > Looks to have a set of six RCA (F) type jacks on it. Is this for > connection of a touchscreen display? > > On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 2:43 AM, Kevin Parker > wrote: > > > Thanks for the clarity and the extra info? - as I said I haven?t > > opened it or fired it up much less had a good look at it. > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian > > Finder > > Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2016 17:28 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: Re: Mall directory computers > > > > That is certainly not a C= 64 as the title in your link suggests but > > rather an Amiga 500. > > > > These were quite popular for "video billboard" sort of purposes- I > > imagine they had it running SCALAMultimedia or a similar authoring > environment. > > > > My local high school district channel ran on a similar setup for many > > years. I recall seeing it stuck on the Amiga Workbench one day... > > > > On Sunday, July 31, 2016, Kevin Parker wrote: > > > > > Just spotted this Brad clearing up email after a 4 week break. I > > > can't answer your question but it reminded me of something that > > > other list users may be able to help with or it might just be of > interest. > > > > > > Quite some time ago a friend of mine bought a travel agent in a > > > shopping mall, did a refit of the shop and then later went bust. > > > Fortunately before the refit and going bust he gave me his old shop > > > display which was run on a modified Commodore. > > > > > > I haven't opened it up or powered it up but if anyone knows what > > > this is I'd be grateful. I've posted some photos: > > > > > > > > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/shop-mall-comm > > > od > > > ore-64/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] > > > On Behalf Of Brad H > > > Sent: Thursday, 14 July 2016 12:25 > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Subject: Mall directory computers > > > > > > Been wondering about this for a while.?? Just one of those odd > childhood > > > memories. > > > > > > > > > > > > When I was a kid growing up in Oakville, Ontario, I remember > > > Oakville Mall getting one of those very early mall directory computers. > > > This would have been like, 1982-84, somewhere thereabouts.? From > > > what I remember, they had kind of CGA-sh graphics and a chiclet > 'keyboard' > > > you used to browse the directory.? I'm wondering, were they just > > > PCs, most likely?? Or some kind of custom job? > > > > > > > > > > -- > >??? Ian Finder > >??? (206) 395-MIPS > >??? ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > > -- ?? Ian Finder ?? (206) 395-MIPS ?? ian.finder at gmail.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 14:16:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 15:16:23 -0400 Subject: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > I had thought of locating original MIKBUG roms but can't tell for sure if > it would work. The system has four EROM sockets and they are all > occupied.. first two by this WEEBUG thing. > Finding SWTPC ROMs would be difficult. I am getting an original 6800 > machine next week but I'm loathe to mess with it too much. > From what I've read MSI were one of the more popular ss50 systems. But > yeah.. next to nothing out there about them. > > > Two things - one is that I should have said the SWTPc 6809 not 6800. 2nd I have had SWTPc machines with MSI cards in it, but I no longer have the system. I sold it because I just wanted the one 6800. Space reasons. There were ROM cards for this class of machines. Companies like Micro Works made them. One way or the other I think you can find a ROM, if you're FLEX-able. get it? b From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Aug 1 14:35:36 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 12:35:36 -0700 Subject: Why classiccmp is awesome [junk spots to visit] In-Reply-To: <2a552923-26f8-7712-4ae1-295fc0f1e664@bitsavers.org> References: <201607272216.SAA11572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201607272229.SAA17767@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0eee4280-cbba-bcc7-ffed-722953307d33@sbcglobal.net> <2a552923-26f8-7712-4ae1-295fc0f1e664@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <008201d1ec2b$e19767c0$a4c63740$@net> > That's one thing, and California's inventory tax, and the fact that > almost no manufacturing is done here, and eBay killing off walk-in > sales, and recyclers with required destruct, and on and on.. The > "Foothill" flea-market is a shadow of what it was in the past. Inventory tax? I am not sure I am familiar with that one. -Ali From ethan at 757.org Mon Aug 1 14:49:25 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 15:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mall directory computers In-Reply-To: <293iaqtg761eua018hw6vvqs.1470078774765@email.android.com> References: <293iaqtg761eua018hw6vvqs.1470078774765@email.android.com> Message-ID: >You know.. come to think of it.. it might have been something like this >software I used to play with obsessively as a kid. ?My Dad had it for >our PC. ?I completely forgrt the name. ?It was a CGA graphics >proto-Powerpoint kind of deal. ?You could draw pictures, graphs etc.. >and it also had clip art. ?You could do fade ins and outs and other effects. >?I think we had it later on.. 85 or after. ?But the colors and way it >drew graphics was similar. ?And I think you could hotkey it to go to >specific 'slides'. ?The mall computer just had a series of buttons >alongside the screen from what I remember. ?Could have been rigged up to >replicate certain keys. ? Wish I could remember the program name.. There was GRASP / GRASPRT? You could author all sorts of stuff in it. There was presentation software called Harvard Graphics I think. -- Ethan O'Toole From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 1 15:17:03 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 13:17:03 -0700 Subject: Mall directory computers Message-ID: <54lg3pib3jqelhmbj37nkaxd.1470082623771@email.android.com> It wasn't those two.. I remember Harvard Graphics. ?It had a friendlier name than that.. Direct something? ?Darn. ?Gotta find it now. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: ethan at 757.org Date: 2016-08-01 12:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Mall directory computers >You know.. come to think of it.. it might have been something like this >software I used to play with obsessively as a kid. ?My Dad had it for >our PC. ?I completely forgrt the name. ?It was a CGA graphics >proto-Powerpoint kind of deal. ?You could draw pictures, graphs etc.. >and it also had clip art. ?You could do fade ins and outs and other effects. >?I think we had it later on.. 85 or after. ?But the colors and way it >drew graphics was similar. ?And I think you could hotkey it to go to >specific 'slides'. ?The mall computer just had a series of buttons >alongside the screen from what I remember. ?Could have been rigged up to >replicate certain keys. ? Wish I could remember the program name.. There was GRASP / GRASPRT? You could author all sorts of stuff in it. There was presentation software called Harvard Graphics I think. -- Ethan O'Toole From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Aug 1 15:27:13 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 13:27:13 -0700 Subject: Mall directory computers Message-ID: I remember company using varian... v series.. minI to drive display was prototype in az..... why varian? There were mivso in the 80s. And this was NOT early 80s Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Brad H Date: 8/1/16 13:17 (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Mall directory computers ??? It wasn't those two.. I remember Harvard Graphics. ?It had a friendlier name than that.. Direct something? ?Darn. ?Gotta find it now. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: ethan at 757.org Date: 2016-08-01? 12:49 PM? (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Mall directory computers >You know.. come to think of it.. it might have been something like this >software I used to play with obsessively as a kid. ?My Dad had it for >our PC. ?I completely forgrt the name. ?It was a CGA graphics >proto-Powerpoint kind of deal. ?You could draw pictures, graphs etc.. >and it also had clip art. ?You could do fade ins and outs and other effects. >?I think we had it later on.. 85 or after. ?But the colors and way it >drew graphics was similar. ?And I think you could hotkey it to go to >specific 'slides'. ?The mall computer just had a series of buttons >alongside the screen from what I remember. ?Could have been rigged up to >replicate certain keys. ? Wish I could remember the program name.. There was GRASP / GRASPRT? You could author all sorts of stuff in it. There was presentation software called Harvard Graphics I think. -- Ethan O'Toole From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 1 16:18:44 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 14:18:44 -0700 Subject: Why classiccmp is awesome [junk spots to visit] In-Reply-To: <008201d1ec2b$e19767c0$a4c63740$@net> References: <201607272216.SAA11572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201607272229.SAA17767@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0eee4280-cbba-bcc7-ffed-722953307d33@sbcglobal.net> <2a552923-26f8-7712-4ae1-295fc0f1e664@bitsavers.org> <008201d1ec2b$e19767c0$a4c63740$@net> Message-ID: <5f69a054-1c61-b983-d2b7-2025675cf77b@bitsavers.org> On 8/1/16 12:35 PM, Ali wrote: > Inventory tax? brain fart. that was repealed in 1979 From other at oryx.us Mon Aug 1 16:41:45 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 16:41:45 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3b2, IBM RT, others In-Reply-To: <55AA1A08-896F-4C8D-9674-37E9969D8EEC@dpf.cc> References: <55AA1A08-896F-4C8D-9674-37E9969D8EEC@dpf.cc> Message-ID: <579FC219.4080100@oryx.us> Hello Doug, Thanks for the post. I am assuming that this is all stuff that is up for "rescue"? Unless Seth Morabito wants/needs the ATT 3b2, I am very much interested in that equipment. I'm up north. About 30 miles north of Dallas. Jerry Kemp On 07/31/16 12:43 PM, Doug Fields wrote: > I'm here in Austin picking up that Multiflow and they have a bunch of other computers. The most intact looking is an AT&T 3b2-1000-70. There are also two rude looking IBM RTs plus an Evans and Sutherland Freedom 1000 with Sun Graphics tower, a Sparc Printer, lots of old Apple printers, and other stuff. I'm trying to put it all on Imgur but having problems since I never used it before so if you want pics email me your iMessage account and I can share it somehow that way. > > Cheers, > > Doug > > -- > Sent from my iPhone > From sales at elecplus.com Mon Aug 1 16:53:09 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:53:09 -0500 Subject: Pictures per previous post In-Reply-To: <1DF03BE6-9C4B-4F2A-971F-4B8C17240FB3@dpf.cc> References: <1DF03BE6-9C4B-4F2A-971F-4B8C17240FB3@dpf.cc> Message-ID: <02cb01d1ec3f$17d2c9c0$47785d40$@com> Except that there is no link? I know someone who wants the RT computers! Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doug Fields Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 12:47 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Pictures per previous post You can view my shared album on the web: Classic Computers Apparently I can do this easily through iCloud. The joy of modern computers. :) Cheers, Doug -- Sent from my iPhone From doug-cctalk at dpf.cc Mon Aug 1 16:57:02 2016 From: doug-cctalk at dpf.cc (Doug Fields) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 17:57:02 -0400 Subject: Pictures per previous post In-Reply-To: <02cb01d1ec3f$17d2c9c0$47785d40$@com> References: <1DF03BE6-9C4B-4F2A-971F-4B8C17240FB3@dpf.cc> <02cb01d1ec3f$17d2c9c0$47785d40$@com> Message-ID: <725F0C4C-943F-47F5-A5C2-1A159E7C5925@dpf.cc> Apparently the list strips HTML out, which I didn't know. https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL Try that? Cheers, Doug > On Aug 1, 2016, at 5:53 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > > Except that there is no link? I know someone who wants the RT computers! > > Cindy > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doug Fields > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 12:47 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Pictures per previous post > > You can view my shared album on the web: > > Classic Computers > > Apparently I can do this easily through iCloud. The joy of modern computers. > :) Cheers, Doug > > > > -- > Sent from my iPhone > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 17:05:11 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 15:05:11 -0700 Subject: Pictures per previous post In-Reply-To: <725F0C4C-943F-47F5-A5C2-1A159E7C5925@dpf.cc> References: <1DF03BE6-9C4B-4F2A-971F-4B8C17240FB3@dpf.cc> <02cb01d1ec3f$17d2c9c0$47785d40$@com> <725F0C4C-943F-47F5-A5C2-1A159E7C5925@dpf.cc> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2016 2:57 PM, "Doug Fields" wrote: > > Apparently the list strips HTML out, which I didn't know. > > https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL < https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL> > > Try that? > > Cheers, > > Doug TI Explorer II - someone is probably interested in that one. From other at oryx.us Mon Aug 1 17:10:44 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 17:10:44 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3b2, IBM RT, others In-Reply-To: <55AA1A08-896F-4C8D-9674-37E9969D8EEC@dpf.cc> References: <55AA1A08-896F-4C8D-9674-37E9969D8EEC@dpf.cc> Message-ID: <579FC8E4.3070501@oryx.us> Hello Doug, Thanks for the URL, the pictures are great. Sorry if I am missing something here. Are you at a Goodwill, or something similar in Austin? Are these items for sale? Or items to come pick up ASAP before they go to the recyclers? Thanks for clarifying, sorry if you posted this already and I just missed it. Jerry On 07/31/16 12:43 PM, Doug Fields wrote: > I'm here in Austin picking up that Multiflow and they have a bunch of other computers. The most intact looking is an AT&T 3b2-1000-70. There are also two rude looking IBM RTs plus an Evans and Sutherland Freedom 1000 with Sun Graphics tower, a Sparc Printer, lots of old Apple printers, and other stuff. I'm trying to put it all on Imgur but having problems since I never used it before so if you want pics email me your iMessage account and I can share it somehow that way. > > Cheers, > > Doug > > -- > Sent from my iPhone > From doug-cctalk at dpf.cc Mon Aug 1 17:23:23 2016 From: doug-cctalk at dpf.cc (Doug Fields) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 18:23:23 -0400 Subject: Pictures per previous post In-Reply-To: References: <1DF03BE6-9C4B-4F2A-971F-4B8C17240FB3@dpf.cc> <02cb01d1ec3f$17d2c9c0$47785d40$@com> <725F0C4C-943F-47F5-A5C2-1A159E7C5925@dpf.cc> Message-ID: <5EB511A4-6C97-4832-B1C9-A5A4F4059C36@dpf.cc> I took these things home with me: TI Explorer II AT&T 3b2-1000-70 & BLIT monitor Commodore 64 + disk drive HP 85 (non-B, I think) Bunch of NeXT manuals and PowerPC 601/603/604 manuals Cheers, Doug > On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > On Aug 1, 2016 2:57 PM, "Doug Fields" wrote: >> >> Apparently the list strips HTML out, which I didn't know. >> >> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL < > https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL> >> >> Try that? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Doug > > TI Explorer II - someone is probably interested in that one. > From doug-cctalk at dpf.cc Mon Aug 1 17:25:18 2016 From: doug-cctalk at dpf.cc (Doug Fields) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 18:25:18 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3b2, IBM RT, others In-Reply-To: <579FC8E4.3070501@oryx.us> References: <55AA1A08-896F-4C8D-9674-37E9969D8EEC@dpf.cc> <579FC8E4.3070501@oryx.us> Message-ID: <06954461-09E4-4FD7-9A19-38E2B5F318ED@dpf.cc> They were/are for sale at about $200 apiece, in Austin. See other message for which things I took. There were also a ton of vintage printing calculators, and about 5 huge PC boards for something with "Ametek S1" and other Ametek labels. shantaedailey at gmail.com - seller Cheers, Doug > On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > Hello Doug, > > Thanks for the URL, the pictures are great. > > Sorry if I am missing something here. > > Are you at a Goodwill, or something similar in Austin? > > Are these items for sale? Or items to come pick up ASAP before they go to the recyclers? > > Thanks for clarifying, sorry if you posted this already and I just missed it. > > Jerry > > > > On 07/31/16 12:43 PM, Doug Fields wrote: >> I'm here in Austin picking up that Multiflow and they have a bunch of other computers. The most intact looking is an AT&T 3b2-1000-70. There are also two rude looking IBM RTs plus an Evans and Sutherland Freedom 1000 with Sun Graphics tower, a Sparc Printer, lots of old Apple printers, and other stuff. I'm trying to put it all on Imgur but having problems since I never used it before so if you want pics email me your iMessage account and I can share it somehow that way. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Doug >> >> -- >> Sent from my iPhone >> > From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 17:28:50 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (killingsworth.todd at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 18:28:50 -0400 Subject: Pictures per previous post In-Reply-To: <5EB511A4-6C97-4832-B1C9-A5A4F4059C36@dpf.cc> References: <1DF03BE6-9C4B-4F2A-971F-4B8C17240FB3@dpf.cc> <02cb01d1ec3f$17d2c9c0$47785d40$@com> <725F0C4C-943F-47F5-A5C2-1A159E7C5925@dpf.cc> <5EB511A4-6C97-4832-B1C9-A5A4F4059C36@dpf.cc> Message-ID: <4A375FC1-C8DD-4430-A576-597157D15F18@gmail.com> Drat. I've always wanted to go poking around a Sun Graphics tower. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Doug Fields wrote: > > I took these things home with me: > > TI Explorer II > AT&T 3b2-1000-70 & BLIT monitor > Commodore 64 + disk drive > HP 85 (non-B, I think) > Bunch of NeXT manuals and PowerPC 601/603/604 manuals > > Cheers, > > Doug > >> On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> >> On Aug 1, 2016 2:57 PM, "Doug Fields" wrote: >>> >>> Apparently the list strips HTML out, which I didn't know. >>> >>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL < >> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL> >>> >>> Try that? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Doug >> >> TI Explorer II - someone is probably interested in that one. > From turing at shaw.ca Mon Aug 1 17:36:58 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:36:58 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Pictures per previous post In-Reply-To: <4A375FC1-C8DD-4430-A576-597157D15F18@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2054265969.43516476.1470091018788.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca> Hi: I'm definitely interested in the TI Explorer II, especially if it is working!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "killingsworth todd" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 1, 2016 3:28:50 PM Subject: Re: Pictures per previous post Drat. I've always wanted to go poking around a Sun Graphics tower. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Doug Fields wrote: > > I took these things home with me: > > TI Explorer II > AT&T 3b2-1000-70 & BLIT monitor > Commodore 64 + disk drive > HP 85 (non-B, I think) > Bunch of NeXT manuals and PowerPC 601/603/604 manuals > > Cheers, > > Doug > >> On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> >> On Aug 1, 2016 2:57 PM, "Doug Fields" wrote: >>> >>> Apparently the list strips HTML out, which I didn't know. >>> >>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL < >> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL> >>> >>> Try that? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Doug >> >> TI Explorer II - someone is probably interested in that one. > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 1 18:15:04 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 16:15:04 -0700 Subject: How to get a Heathkit H8 to work with a serial terminal Message-ID: I posted this on vcfed and thought I'd ask here too. I have a working H8. ?It has the basics plus a 64k ram card and serial/cassette card. ?I have been looking and looking for info on what program to enter or rom change you have to make to get the machine to operate with a terminal. ?Surprisingly, I can't find any info on this at all. ?The H9 terminal guide describes general assembly and operation but does not say specifically how you use it in conjunction with an H8. Per others it sounds like you'd need to enter a program on the front panel to get the machine talking to the terminal. ?Or change ROMs. ?Does anyone have any info on how that all works? ?Can you actually redirect the front panel input/output to terminal? ? B Sent from my Samsung device From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 1 18:25:38 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <10bf7ea9-8d65-38ba-a8e6-2c1d6ee1504a@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Aug 1, 16 08:23:09 am" Message-ID: <201608012325.u71NPchO49808244@floodgap.com> > > > http://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/introducing.gif I have a "Windows '95 = Macintosh '89" pin on my iMac G4, as seen here: http://www.theapplecollection.com/Collection/pin/PinsBadges.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Business is war. -- Jack Tramiel ------------------------------------------- From other at oryx.us Mon Aug 1 18:34:42 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 18:34:42 -0500 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <201608012325.u71NPchO49808244@floodgap.com> References: <201608012325.u71NPchO49808244@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <579FDC92.8080201@oryx.us> I was not aware all those pins existed. Did they (the pins) serve some special purpose, other than for someone to advertise an Apple product, on their shirt or hat? Jerry On 08/ 1/16 06:25 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> > >> http://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/introducing.gif > > I have a "Windows '95 = Macintosh '89" pin on my iMac G4, as seen here: > http://www.theapplecollection.com/Collection/pin/PinsBadges.html > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 18:37:45 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:37:45 -0700 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <201608012325.u71NPchO49808244@floodgap.com> References: <10bf7ea9-8d65-38ba-a8e6-2c1d6ee1504a@bitsavers.org> <201608012325.u71NPchO49808244@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > < > https://tech.slashdot.org/story/08/05/28/2214214/bill-gates-windows-95-was-a-high-point > > > > > http://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/introducing.gif > > I have a "Windows '95 = Macintosh '89" pin on my iMac G4, as seen here: > http://www.theapplecollection.com/Collection/pin/PinsBadges.html > > I remember seeing some ads on buses: C:\ONGRATULATIONS.W95 With an Apple Logo. -- Charles From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 1 18:38:01 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <579FDC92.8080201@oryx.us> from Jerry Kemp at "Aug 1, 16 06:34:42 pm" Message-ID: <201608012338.u71Nc19t31983114@floodgap.com> > >>> > > > >> http://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/introducing.gif > > > > I have a "Windows '95 = Macintosh '89" pin on my iMac G4, as seen here: > > http://www.theapplecollection.com/Collection/pin/PinsBadges.html > > I was not aware all those pins existed. > > Did they (the pins) serve some special purpose, other than for someone to > advertise an Apple product, on their shirt or hat? Convo swag, presumably. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Sometimes Dilbert is so true, it's scary. -- Mike Jacobs ------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 1 19:09:18 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 17:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <579FDC92.8080201@oryx.us> References: <201608012325.u71NPchO49808244@floodgap.com> <579FDC92.8080201@oryx.us> Message-ID: "Windows '95 = Macintosh '89" On Mon, 1 Aug 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: > I was not aware all those pins existed. > Did they (the pins) serve some special purpose, other than for someone to > advertise an Apple product, on their shirt or hat? brand loyalty statement. (Ford V Chevy) From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 1 19:29:36 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 17:29:36 -0700 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' Message-ID: I would call Win 95 a high point also. ?I lived near Toronto at the time and remember the unfurling of a huge Win 95 banner down one side. ?There were events everywhere. ?MS was really at their zenith. The excitement around that launch was like nothing since. ?I believe I got swept up and installed it immediately but shortly after removed it. ?Couldn't get used to the interface. ?Eventually for one reason or another I had to and did go back to it. ?Wasn't the greatest or most stable OS and was kind of a half breed at that, but man.. what I wouldn't give to feel the anticipation again, the difference between it and DOS. ?Nothing released on either PC or Mac has come close. Brad Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Cameron Kaiser Date: 2016-08-01 4:25 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' > > > http://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/introducing.gif I have a "Windows '95 = Macintosh '89" pin on my iMac G4, as seen here: http://www.theapplecollection.com/Collection/pin/PinsBadges.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- ? Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Business is war. -- Jack Tramiel ------------------------------------------- From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 1 19:33:50 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 17:33:50 -0700 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' Message-ID: <1u63qcjv9vaw1yu4s0o9m9l5.1470098030728@email.android.com> Er.. that was.. 'down one side of the CN tower'.. :) Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Brad H Date: 2016-08-01 5:29 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' ??? I would call Win 95 a high point also. ?I lived near Toronto at the time and remember the unfurling of a huge Win 95 banner down one side. ?There were events everywhere. ?MS was really at their zenith. The excitement around that launch was like nothing since. ?I believe I got swept up and installed it immediately but shortly after removed it. ?Couldn't get used to the interface. ?Eventually for one reason or another I had to and did go back to it. ?Wasn't the greatest or most stable OS and was kind of a half breed at that, but man.. what I wouldn't give to feel the anticipation again, the difference between it and DOS. ?Nothing released on either PC or Mac has come close. Brad Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Cameron Kaiser Date: 2016-08-01? 4:25 PM? (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' > > > http://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/introducing.gif I have a "Windows '95 = Macintosh '89" pin on my iMac G4, as seen here: http://www.theapplecollection.com/Collection/pin/PinsBadges.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- ? Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Business is war. -- Jack Tramiel ------------------------------------------- From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 1 19:38:03 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 17:38:03 -0700 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' Message-ID: Here's some shots of it. ?I forgot about the guy rappelling down the tower. ?Don't think anyone rappelled for Windows 10! http://motherboard.vice.com/read/this-guy-rappelled-down-the-cn-tower-for-the-launch-of-windows-95 Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Brad H Date: 2016-08-01 5:33 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' ??? Er.. that was.. 'down one side of the CN tower'.. :) Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Brad H Date: 2016-08-01? 5:29 PM? (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' ??? I would call Win 95 a high point also. ?I lived near Toronto at the time and remember the unfurling of a huge Win 95 banner down one side. ?There were events everywhere. ?MS was really at their zenith. The excitement around that launch was like nothing since. ?I believe I got swept up and installed it immediately but shortly after removed it. ?Couldn't get used to the interface. ?Eventually for one reason or another I had to and did go back to it. ?Wasn't the greatest or most stable OS and was kind of a half breed at that, but man.. what I wouldn't give to feel the anticipation again, the difference between it and DOS. ?Nothing released on either PC or Mac has come close. Brad Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Cameron Kaiser Date: 2016-08-01? 4:25 PM? (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' > > > http://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/introducing.gif I have a "Windows '95 = Macintosh '89" pin on my iMac G4, as seen here: http://www.theapplecollection.com/Collection/pin/PinsBadges.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- ? Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Business is war. -- Jack Tramiel ------------------------------------------- From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Aug 1 19:43:39 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:43:39 -0400 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' Message-ID: <12a6c5.d5b36e5.44d146bb@aol.com> hey! the start it up song sold me! it sure was a production eh? I installed it... I liked it.. 98 SE got better me got worse XP was outstanding I did fine with vista... 7 was better yet. skipped 8 bought never installed and used to up to 8.1 then used to up to 10 on one system. I am happy with 10 just a few things to get used to. upgraded the edit bays and office systems... all is well no urge to go backwards.... In the archive area we keep at least one... dos 6 3.1 95 98se xp vista 7 In a message dated 8/1/2016 5:35:59 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net writes: Er.. that was.. 'down one side of the CN tower'.. :) Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Brad H Date: 2016-08-01 5:29 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' I would call Win 95 a high point also. I lived near Toronto at the time and remember the unfurling of a huge Win 95 banner down one side. There were events everywhere. MS was really at their zenith. The excitement around that launch was like nothing since. I believe I got swept up and installed it immediately but shortly after removed it. Couldn't get used to the interface. Eventually for one reason or another I had to and did go back to it. Wasn't the greatest or most stable OS and was kind of a half breed at that, but man.. what I wouldn't give to feel the anticipation again, the difference between it and DOS. Nothing released on either PC or Mac has come close. Brad Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Cameron Kaiser Date: 2016-08-01 4:25 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' > > > http://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/introducing.gif I have a "Windows '95 = Macintosh '89" pin on my iMac G4, as seen here: http://www.theapplecollection.com/Collection/pin/PinsBadges.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Business is war. -- Jack Tramiel ------------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 1 19:46:46 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 17:46:46 -0700 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07302c81-0102-ad96-7ef2-dcb82e2d0411@sydex.com> On 08/01/2016 05:29 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > I would call Win 95 a high point also. I lived near Toronto at the > time and remember the unfurling of a huge Win 95 banner down one > side. There were events everywhere. MS was really at their zenith. > The excitement around that launch was like nothing since. I believe > I got swept up and installed it immediately but shortly after removed > it. Couldn't get used to the interface. Eventually for one reason > or another I had to and did go back to it. Wasn't the greatest or > most stable OS and was kind of a half breed at that, but man.. what I > wouldn't give to feel the anticipation again, the difference between > it and DOS. Nothing released on either PC or Mac has come close. Win95 for those running NT 3.51 was something of a low point. Compared to the latter, 95 was a cranky, bug-ridden system that was burdened by 8.3 file names, limited disk size, etc. I remember BSOD after BSOD when my NT system ran just fine. By the next year, when NT 4.0 came out, there was no comparison. And 3.51 would run on PPC, MIPS and Alpha platforms. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 19:48:16 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:48:16 -0500 Subject: "non-polar" capacitor? In-Reply-To: References: <0891A682-7A0C-4591-BB7F-1B1FB5FD6D92@platinum.net> <6fc628b8-3f17-3ce4-0c65-ca25ce3834f6@jbrain.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160801065447.03e2d458@juno.com> Message-ID: ">Non-polar caps are used in locations where they must pass AC. Conventional polarized aluminum and tantalum capacitors are also used in locations where they must pass AC, such as interstage coupling capacitors and bypass capacitors, not to mention electrolytics as power supply filter capacitors. Any capacitor that could not pass AC would not be a capacitor." That's not true AC in either case. It's fluctuating DC, or perhaps AC riding on a DC bias equal to at least half the peak value of the waveform. True AC switches polarity every 180' of the cycle. If you try to pass true AC with an electrolytic, you will encounter the diode-like / rectifier behavior that was also previously noted, whenever the voltage changes sign to oppose the marked polarity of the cap. On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 11:56 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/01/2016 04:08 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > > > 1) When there is no constant DC offset to the applied voltage - if > > the voltage applied to an electrolytic capacitor reverses the > > capacitor can be damaged. When there is no constant DC offset the > > second reason can come into play: > > > > 2) When a large value non-polarized electrolytic can, as previously > > noted, cost less than a large film, oil-filled, or other non-polar > > capacitor. > > > > Some of us still deal daily with analog circuitry at work. > > There's one other aspect that I believe is germane to this particular > application: Linearity. > > Aluminum electrolytic capacitors are very curious beasts--they're not > all capacitance, but rather operate as several different "pure" > properties hooked in series. Most people here know about ESR, but > there's another one--wet aluminum dielectrics also function as if they > had a leaky diode in series with the series resistance and capacitance. > > This is a result of the way they're constructed--basically two aluminum > foil strips, separated by a membrane (often paper) saturated with an > electrolyte (commonly borax). A DC current is applied to "form" the > capacitor and establish its polarity. > > Probably nobody here is old enough to remember liquid rectifiers, but my > own father related them to me (he grew up in a poor family during the > teens and 20s). The idea was that you took a plate of aluminum and a > plate of tin, lead or other metal and immersed them in a solution of > sodium bicarbonate, borax or some other electrolyte (dad used ammonium > sulfate, a waste product of the nearby steel mills' coke ovens, and ran > an AC current through them. Eventually, the device polarized and formed > a hydroxide/oxide layer on the aluminum and developed a preference to > current direction. The sparkbangbuzz website has some interesting > observations on this animal. > > For use in audio circuits, this "series diode" effect can lead to > distortion, hence the use of a non-polar device. Take an aluminum > electrolytic and put it on your curve tracer and the effect is quite > visible. For what it's worth, I don't know if tantalum caps exhibit the > same behavior, but I suspect that they do. > > --Chuck > > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 1 19:47:35 2016 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 19:47:35 -0500 Subject: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)) In-Reply-To: References: <1004d0.4bb9c9fe.44bf4650@aol.com> <201607191653.MAA10236@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: At 05:13 PM 7/19/2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: >I'm sure you know the thing about Garth/Dana Carvey? Him mentioning the Unix book in Waynes World was a nod to his brother, his brother founded NewTek the company behind the Amiga video toaster and the current NewTek Tricaster stuff? No, Brad was not the founder of NewTek. He did do early designs of the Toaster. - John From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Aug 1 20:01:21 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 21:01:21 -0400 Subject: How to get a Heathkit H8 to work with a serial terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05e001d1ec59$62e081e0$28a185a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Try in the SEBHC group: sebhc at googlegroups.com From perlpowers at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 20:29:05 2016 From: perlpowers at gmail.com (Hayden Kroepfl) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:29:05 -0600 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration Message-ID: Hi, I recently acquired a pair of HP 2100A minicomputers locally for very cheap. Don't think I could get much more local that a guy literally at the end of my street. He bought them at an auction over ten years ago, never powered them on, and left them in his garage since. They've likely never been powered up since they were last in regular use. The units seem to be complete, apart from missing a few I/O cards that are written onto the top of the power supply. I don't plan to power them up until I've taken them apart, cleaned all the dirt and debris from them, and inspected the power supply. With regards to the power supply, I'm thinking my best bet would be to do a power on with no cards in the system. Though I'm not sure if all the power rails would even come up without a load on it, since it sounds like it may do some power sequencing from what I've read. I was wondering if anyone has some experience with testing a similar power supply that hasn't been run in at least 10 years? I'm not sure if using a variac to slowly warm up the supply and the caps would be wise on one of these power supplies. I'm not sure how the switching supplies would handle the low voltage at the start. The only I/O card that was installed in both machines, besides a terminator board in only one of them, is a serial interface made by some company with the logo CMC. It uses a COM2502 UART which I was surprised to find a datasheet for, however I haven't found any information on the card itself. I have a photo of the card in the album linked below if anyone has any information on it. I know this email is getting a bit long, but with regards to the memory both machines have a ID(16K) driver board, and two core modules. However one machine has both core modules marked 02100-60052 on the bridge, and the other has one marked 02100-60052 and the other 02100-60054. Is there any difference between these modules? I'd assume by the 16K driver in both, that all of the core modules are 8KW modules. Would that just be a later revision or is one a different size? I've taken some photos of the machines and put them here: https://goo.gl/photos/z2tGBbNvekwrxS5L9 I'll be taking more after I make some space to start taking the units apart for cleaning and inspection. I've also included photos of the serial numbers and other badges on the backs if anyone knows of a resource to decode them. I'd very much appreciate any help or suggestions that people have. I really want to get at least one of these machines back into full working order to have some fun programming with. Thanks, Hayden K. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 20:31:33 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 13:31:33 +1200 Subject: Pictures per previous post In-Reply-To: <5EB511A4-6C97-4832-B1C9-A5A4F4059C36@dpf.cc> References: <1DF03BE6-9C4B-4F2A-971F-4B8C17240FB3@dpf.cc> <02cb01d1ec3f$17d2c9c0$47785d40$@com> <725F0C4C-943F-47F5-A5C2-1A159E7C5925@dpf.cc> <5EB511A4-6C97-4832-B1C9-A5A4F4059C36@dpf.cc> Message-ID: Just to clarify did you 'rescue' these hoping to find good homes for them later - or to keep for yourself? If the former I would definitely be interested in the TI Explorer - and the RT. Mike On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Doug Fields wrote: > I took these things home with me: > > TI Explorer II > AT&T 3b2-1000-70 & BLIT monitor > Commodore 64 + disk drive > HP 85 (non-B, I think) > Bunch of NeXT manuals and PowerPC 601/603/604 manuals > > Cheers, > > Doug > >> On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> >> On Aug 1, 2016 2:57 PM, "Doug Fields" wrote: >>> >>> Apparently the list strips HTML out, which I didn't know. >>> >>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL < >> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL> >>> >>> Try that? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Doug >> >> TI Explorer II - someone is probably interested in that one. >> > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Aug 1 21:10:12 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 22:10:12 -0400 Subject: Pictures per previous post Message-ID: <12b7dc.5e8f33db.44d15b04@aol.com> Doug we have a next cube, neat next monitor and NEXT laser printer at SMECC museum but alas no manuals Please advise Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC ADDED NOTE need some great NEXT promo stuff to make the back drop for the display of this setup - - - -- - - - - -- - - In a message dated 8/1/2016 6:31:36 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, tmfdmike at gmail.com writes: Just to clarify did you 'rescue' these hoping to find good homes for them later - or to keep for yourself? If the former I would definitely be interested in the TI Explorer - and the RT. Mike On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Doug Fields wrote: > I took these things home with me: > > TI Explorer II > AT&T 3b2-1000-70 & BLIT monitor > Commodore 64 + disk drive > HP 85 (non-B, I think) > Bunch of NeXT manuals and PowerPC 601/603/604 manuals > > Cheers, > > Doug > >> On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> >> On Aug 1, 2016 2:57 PM, "Doug Fields" wrote: >>> >>> Apparently the list strips HTML out, which I didn't know. >>> >>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL < >> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL> >>> >>> Try that? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Doug >> >> TI Explorer II - someone is probably interested in that one. >> > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 1 21:10:38 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <1u63qcjv9vaw1yu4s0o9m9l5.1470098030728@email.android.com> References: <1u63qcjv9vaw1yu4s0o9m9l5.1470098030728@email.android.com> Message-ID: ??? I would call Win 95 a high point also. ?I lived near Toronto at the time and remember the unfurling of a huge Win 95 banner down one side. On Mon, 1 Aug 2016, Brad H wrote: Er.. that was.. 'down one side of the CN tower'.. :) I was trying to visualize the unfurling of a huge Win 95 banner down one side of Toronto. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 1 21:12:14 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:12:14 -0700 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160801191214.686c3786@asrock.bcwi.net> Hi Hayden, On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:29:05 -0600 Hayden Kroepfl wrote: --snip-- > With regards to the power supply, I'm thinking my best bet would be > to do a power on with no cards in the system. Though I'm not sure if > all the power rails would even come up without a load on it, since it > sounds like it may do some power sequencing from what I've read. I > was wondering if anyone has some experience with testing a similar > power supply that hasn't been run in at least 10 years? Those of us who have brought up HP2100s that have been stored (even in military packaging) know the power supplies can be a "bear". The PS is a "fold out" deal - and never used to be repaired in the field by FEs. They were swapped with new units - and the failing supply sent back to HP for refurbishing. The process was detailed to me by a person who sold 2100's as an OEM for many years. That being said, they are a early design switching supply - and should have a load when powering them on. > I'm not sure if using a variac to slowly warm up the supply and the > caps would be wise on one of these power supplies. I'm not sure how > the switching supplies would handle the low voltage at the start. I would definitely NOT use a variac on them. It's best to check the caps (and reform if necessary) and then power it up with a load. You may have to "gently" (as in slowly) turn the PS on and off a number of times to work out the years of "dormancy" (reforming the capacitors that you can't get to ;) > The only I/O card that was installed in both machines, besides a > terminator board in only one of them, is a serial interface made by > some company with the logo CMC. It uses a COM2502 UART which I was > surprised to find a datasheet for, however I haven't found any > information on the card itself. I have a photo of the card in the > album linked below if anyone has any information on it. The 2100 has a weird I/O addressing scheme - so check the manual carefully. Moving a card from one location to another in the mainframe changes its address! That's very different from DEC (and many others) who had switches or jumpers on boards to change addresses. interrupts, etc. > I know this email is getting a bit long, but with regards to the > memory both machines have a ID(16K) driver board, and two core > modules. However one machine has both core modules marked 02100-60052 > on the bridge, and the other has one marked 02100-60052 and the other > 02100-60054. Is there any difference between these modules? I'd > assume by the 16K driver in both, that all of the core modules are > 8KW modules. Would that just be a later revision or is one a > different size? Look on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/21xx/ and start reading manuals (particularly the Maintenance and Drawings). There a wealth of information to be found there - and it's what I used to get my 2100S running. --snip-- > I'd very much appreciate any help or suggestions that peopleh ave. I > really want to get at least one of these machines back into full > working order to have some fun programming with. HP2100 restoration is very doable. And the 2100 has one of the best front panels going :) Like how can you not like buttons that light up when you push them!? Most of my problems with my 2100S were related to the power supply - and a few related to memory. Wishing you the best!!! Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 1 21:28:16 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 22:28:16 -0400 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <07302c81-0102-ad96-7ef2-dcb82e2d0411@sydex.com> References: <07302c81-0102-ad96-7ef2-dcb82e2d0411@sydex.com> Message-ID: NT 4.0 was ok, but for me Windows 2000 was the coolest thing ever since I could have stability AND play games on it. Playing with the W2K betas was fun, never got excited about a MS OS since then. Speaking of games Windows 95 was a huge shift in the world because while I got used to apps on Windows 3.11 (WFW) I still had to shut down to DOS to play games. Win 95 integrated gaming video and sound along with joystick configuration and soon every game would need it to run (one OS for everything). There was also a huge explosion of apps for Win95 compared to what was around for Win3.x. I think around that time computers finally became common in every household so MS benefited from a huge increase in retail and OEM sales. I do recall the hype of Win 95 as I purchased the 95 upgrade soon after it was out, and a girl I worked with got me a Win 95 mug around release day. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 8:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' On 08/01/2016 05:29 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > I would call Win 95 a high point also. I lived near Toronto at the > time and remember the unfurling of a huge Win 95 banner down one > side. There were events everywhere. MS was really at their zenith. > The excitement around that launch was like nothing since. I believe > I got swept up and installed it immediately but shortly after removed > it. Couldn't get used to the interface. Eventually for one reason > or another I had to and did go back to it. Wasn't the greatest or > most stable OS and was kind of a half breed at that, but man.. what I > wouldn't give to feel the anticipation again, the difference between > it and DOS. Nothing released on either PC or Mac has come close. Win95 for those running NT 3.51 was something of a low point. Compared to the latter, 95 was a cranky, bug-ridden system that was burdened by 8.3 file names, limited disk size, etc. I remember BSOD after BSOD when my NT system ran just fine. By the next year, when NT 4.0 came out, there was no comparison. And 3.51 would run on PPC, MIPS and Alpha platforms. --Chuck --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 1 21:47:52 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <12a6c5.d5b36e5.44d146bb@aol.com> References: <12a6c5.d5b36e5.44d146bb@aol.com> Message-ID: > I remember BSOD after BSOD when Well, Windoze 3.00 was swamped with UAE ("Unexpected Application Error") One of the design goals of 3.10 was to "eliminate UAEs". Not as hard as it sounds! By 3.10, they were EXPECTED application errors. > 98 SE got better > me got worse > XP was outstanding A few days ago, a friend handed me ANOTHER Sony Vaio TR3 (I now have about a dozen). It will not work well past XP, so that is what is on them. I always configure all of them with IE, Firefox, Chrome, Open Office, and Putty. The Google site will no longer download Chrome for XP! They've been saying for a while that there would be no further patches, etc., but the actual availability of the old browser is gone! Fortunately, slimjet.com has a page for download of old Chrome versions! The installer is flawed, but it can be coerced into working. Firefox 404s on its XP download, but they have an alternate page that works. There are also currently available, a couple dozen free Dell Inspiron 5150 and 5160 laptops, which also can't go past XP. (I have seen one ALMOST working with 7) (Dr. Marty is attempting to regain a living room) (Contact info available on request) > I did fine with vista... I used to teach at "Vista College"! In summer 2006, the college changed its name to "Berkeley City College", which coincidentally, was right when Vista was coming out. In the CIS department, we begged them to keep the old name, at least in parallel just for the ability to advertise, "THE best place to learn Vista!" > 7 was better yet. The more that I use it, the less that I dislike it. > skipped 8 bought never installed and used > to up to 8.1 then used to up to 10 on one system. > I am happy with 10 just a few things to get used to. My Win7 Thinkpad X220 upgraded to 10, against my will! I tried to accept it, but it just wouldn't work the way that I needed when I needed it. It really munged my Handbrake queue of Doctor Who DVDs So I rolled it back to 7. > In the archive area we keep at least one... > dos 6 > 3.1 > 95 > 98se > xp > vista > 7 DOS 1.00 was almost as good as CP/M (and NEWDOS80, etc.) 1.10/1.25 at least supported double sided drives, and patched a few things. 2.00 brought sub-directories, and API for unix-style file access, 9SPT 2.10 slowed down floppy step for that F'ing Qumetrak 142 (AKA "maybe, if I skew FOUR sectors, . . . ") 2.11 there were some fascinating customizations by OEMs 3.00 1.2M flop and 3.10 network redirector and CD-ROMs! 3.20 720K flop 3.30 1.4M flop 3.31 >32M drives and more OEM customizations 4.00 large drives, and incompatability with Norton fUtilities 4.01 desperate patches 5.00 first major RETAILing of DOS by MICROS~1 Windows 3.10 was first to demand HIMEM.SYS (and A20), and therefore, first not usable on 8088 5160s. Also, seemed to be the first that DEMANDED SMARTDRV, and made it obvious that Microsoft was going to have BIG troubles from it. (UNRECOVERABLE data loss in the event of a disk error during write, that otherwise previously could be solved by trying agin on another disk or location) 6.00 not much changed INSIDE, but oh, what a pile of bundled stuff! DOS 6.2x (0|1|2 according to compression) was the first version of DOS in which improving reliability was the most important design criteria. (due to problems with SMARTDRV, that were blamed on the compression) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chrise at pobox.com Mon Aug 1 22:14:14 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 22:14:14 -0500 Subject: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have all kinds of SWTPC 6800 stuff here and I think I recognize your floppy controller as a PERCOM LFD-400 board. These are somewhat unique because they are built around a sync USART (S2650) and use 10-hole hard-sector floppy media (just like Heath H17 and Northstar systems). Can you see any PERCOM logo on the floppy controller board? Are there two 2708 EPROM on that board? Chris On August 1, 2016 12:32:49 PM CDT, Brad H wrote: >Just thought I'd send out another shout out to anyone who might have >one of these or is familiar with them. ?I've had this a while but have >not really been able to use it, lacking a boot disk. ?It also doesn't >have the standard MSIBUG ROM. ?I'm hoping maybe someone out there knows >how I could procure the original ROMs and put this back to stock. >I made a video showing the current 'WEEBUG' ROM in case any are curious >or someone out there knows about it. >Thanks! >https://youtu.be/LY7yoAVxSrM > > > >Sent from my Samsung device -- Chris Elmquist From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 1 22:24:11 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 20:24:11 -0700 Subject: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 Message-ID: Thanks Chris.. yes I think you are correct. ?Here is a photo of it: http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20160520_194139_zpswkjgwf17.jpg.html This is the CPU board. ?I'm wondering why it has four EPROMs, and what the two unmarked do. ?This is where I wish there were a manual.. or even a good pic of an untouched original board to compare. http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20160520_194018_zps8odxjmid.jpg.html I'd just settle for being able to fool around in the monitor. ?But I think this monitor is called WEEBUG because it's very stripped down. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Chris Elmquist Date: 2016-08-01 8:14 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , Brad H Subject: Re: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 I have all kinds of SWTPC 6800 stuff here and I think I recognize your floppy controller as a PERCOM LFD-400 board.? These are somewhat unique because they are built around a sync USART (S2650) and use 10-hole hard-sector floppy media (just like Heath H17 and Northstar systems). Can you see any PERCOM logo on the floppy controller board? Are there two 2708 EPROM on that board? Chris On August 1, 2016 12:32:49 PM CDT, Brad H wrote: >Just thought I'd send out another shout out to anyone who might have >one of these or is familiar with them. ?I've had this a while but have >not really been able to use it, lacking a boot disk. ?It also doesn't >have the standard MSIBUG ROM. ?I'm hoping maybe someone out there knows >how I could procure the original ROMs and put this back to stock. >I made a video showing the current 'WEEBUG' ROM in case any are curious >or someone out there knows about it. >Thanks! >https://youtu.be/LY7yoAVxSrM > > > >Sent from my Samsung device -- Chris Elmquist From other at oryx.us Mon Aug 1 22:26:52 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 22:26:52 -0500 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57A012FC.1090304@oryx.us> Understood. That was OS/2 2.0 for me, after I had settled into OS/2 1.3 Unix took me longer to warm up to. Jerry On 08/ 1/16 07:29 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > I would call Win 95 a high point also. I lived near Toronto at the time and > remember the unfurling of a huge Win 95 banner down one side. There were events > everywhere. MS was really at their zenith. The excitement around that launch was > like nothing since. I believe I got swept up and installed it immediately but > shortly after removed it. Couldn't get used to the interface. Eventually for one > reason or another I had to and did go back to it. Wasn't the greatest or most > stable OS and was kind of a half breed at that, but man.. what I wouldn't give > to feel the anticipation again, the difference between it and DOS. Nothing > released on either PC or Mac has come close. > Brad > From other at oryx.us Mon Aug 1 22:28:54 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 22:28:54 -0500 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: References: <12a6c5.d5b36e5.44d146bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <57A01376.1030101@oryx.us> On 08/ 1/16 09:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I remember BSOD after BSOD when > > Well, Windoze 3.00 was swamped with UAE ("Unexpected Application Error") > One of the design goals of 3.10 was to "eliminate UAEs". > Not as hard as it sounds! By 3.10, they were EXPECTED application errors. > :) Are you sure? An old friend told me that ms just renamed UAE's to GPF's. :) Jerry > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 1 22:32:55 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 20:32:55 -0700 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' Message-ID: <736gcbqbalekw9aplpmfpc24.1470108775069@email.android.com> Never did try OS/2. ?I had friends who were fanatics about it. ?There was a big push back then to go to it. ?When that failed they rallied to Linux. ?Really should set up a box here with it and try it out. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Jerry Kemp Date: 2016-08-01 8:26 PM (GMT-08:00) To: General at classiccmp.org, "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' Understood.?? That was OS/2 2.0 for me, after I had settled into OS/2 1.3 Unix took me longer to warm up to. Jerry On 08/ 1/16 07:29 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > I would call Win 95 a high point also. I lived near Toronto at the time and > remember the unfurling of a huge Win 95 banner down one side. There were events > everywhere. MS was really at their zenith. The excitement around that launch was > like nothing since. I believe I got swept up and installed it immediately but > shortly after removed it. Couldn't get used to the interface. Eventually for one > reason or another I had to and did go back to it. Wasn't the greatest or most > stable OS and was kind of a half breed at that, but man.. what I wouldn't give > to feel the anticipation again, the difference between it and DOS. Nothing > released on either PC or Mac has come close. > Brad > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 1 22:51:53 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:51:53 -0700 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <736gcbqbalekw9aplpmfpc24.1470108775069@email.android.com> References: <736gcbqbalekw9aplpmfpc24.1470108775069@email.android.com> Message-ID: On 08/01/2016 08:32 PM, Brad H wrote: > Never did try OS/2. I had friends who were fanatics about it. There > was a big push back then to go to it. When that failed they rallied > to Linux. Really should set up a box here with it and try it out. I was an OS/2 developer from about 1.1 to Warp 3. One thing that impressed me about the whole package was the almost painstakingly clearly-written documentation for developers. This was when a devkit for OS/2 was a big box full of manuals and lots of floppies. Sadly, I can't claim that Microsoft exhibited the same amount of care with Windows documentation. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 1 23:21:46 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 21:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <57A01376.1030101@oryx.us> References: <12a6c5.d5b36e5.44d146bb@aol.com> <57A01376.1030101@oryx.us> Message-ID: >>> I remember BSOD after BSOD when >> Well, Windoze 3.00 was swamped with UAE ("Unexpected Application Error") >> One of the design goals of 3.10 was to "eliminate UAEs". >> Not as hard as it sounds! By 3.10, they were EXPECTED application errors. On Mon, 1 Aug 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote: > :) > Are you sure? An old friend told me that ms just renamed UAE's to GPF's. :) That is, indeed, the name that they gave to the expected application errors. From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Aug 1 17:51:42 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 15:51:42 -0700 Subject: DEC Rack near Portland Oregon Message-ID: Has Orange/Purple decorative top in good shape. No sides, door etc. I don't have it but it will be up for sale, I think they are asking around $50. Let me know if anyone is interested and I can pass the info on -pete From dpfields at dpf.cc Mon Aug 1 17:58:44 2016 From: dpfields at dpf.cc (Doug Fields) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 18:58:44 -0400 Subject: Pictures per previous post In-Reply-To: <4A375FC1-C8DD-4430-A576-597157D15F18@gmail.com> References: <1DF03BE6-9C4B-4F2A-971F-4B8C17240FB3@dpf.cc> <02cb01d1ec3f$17d2c9c0$47785d40$@com> <725F0C4C-943F-47F5-A5C2-1A159E7C5925@dpf.cc> <5EB511A4-6C97-4832-B1C9-A5A4F4059C36@dpf.cc> <4A375FC1-C8DD-4430-A576-597157D15F18@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F21B738-2EEC-4A3D-AF1E-F4954013C6AC@dpf.cc> It's still there for you. :) -- Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:28 PM, killingsworth.todd at gmail.com wrote: > > Drat. I've always wanted to go poking around a Sun Graphics tower. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Doug Fields wrote: >> >> I took these things home with me: >> >> TI Explorer II >> AT&T 3b2-1000-70 & BLIT monitor >> Commodore 64 + disk drive >> HP 85 (non-B, I think) >> Bunch of NeXT manuals and PowerPC 601/603/604 manuals >> >> Cheers, >> >> Doug >> >>> On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >>> >>> On Aug 1, 2016 2:57 PM, "Doug Fields" wrote: >>>> >>>> Apparently the list strips HTML out, which I didn't know. >>>> >>>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL < >>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL> >>>> >>>> Try that? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Doug >>> >>> TI Explorer II - someone is probably interested in that one. > From saburwulf at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 17:58:49 2016 From: saburwulf at gmail.com (Joshua Stetson) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 15:58:49 -0700 Subject: DEC Rack near Portland Oregon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I may be interested. I've been looking for a rack for my DEC equipment. Are they needing it picked up soon? I'm in Seattle. Josh On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Has Orange/Purple decorative top in good shape. No sides, door etc. > > I don't have it but it will be up for sale, I think they are asking around > $50. > > Let me know if anyone is interested and I can pass the info on > > -pete > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Aug 1 21:50:44 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 22:50:44 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II (Doug) In-Reply-To: <01b0376f-efb7-49fe-beb7-2ce904e1c497@yahoo.com> References: <8ba5eae4-5af0-4016-544b-a9c7bfd0ad41@crash.com> <86958d5a-86df-7903-fa5e-321479b6a187@comcast.net> <816ae872-fb56-1fae-78ab-bf75421480b9@comcast.net> <01b0376f-efb7-49fe-beb7-2ce904e1c497@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <98d890fc-9506-b2b6-7ff9-d88309bf0d0f@comcast.net> On 8/1/2016 11:26 AM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > On 7/31/2016 10:38 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: >> >> That sounds good. BTW, where do I go to get the VMS hobbyist license >> PAKS and downloads? I'm running into dead links. >> >> Doug > > Things recently (last few months) changed and the OpenVMS Hobbyist > licenses are now handled by the HPE office in India. The URL for the > application is > > When you choose a chapter for "Participating Chapter" choose > "DECUSERVE" if you don't belong to one. Then telnet (no SSH) to > eisner.decuserve.com where you will get a login page and choose the > "REGISTRATION" option. This will get you a DECUS member number that > you can supply for the hobbyist license. Once you are logged into the > system you can find your membership number by typing the command > "HOBBYIST" > > Once you get your reply from HPE then you can also reply to that email > and ask for the FTP credentials to download a VMS 7.3 VAX install disk > image or Alpha or IA64 for that matter - just ask for all that you want. > > Remember that when you apply it is going to India so plan for the > timezone and weekend change accordingly. > > > John H. Reinhardt > Thanks, I telneted into eisner and used my DECUS number from 2002. I entered that in the www.hpe.com webpage, and am waiting for a response. Back in 2002 I got the VMS 7.2 media, PAKS and layered products, but a lot has changed since then. I can't find my media, but maybe I don't need it. At this point I am awaiting the SCSI2SD adapter to use in the MVII. I also have a MV 4000/400 I need to get current license PAKS for. Doug From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Mon Aug 1 21:58:20 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 22:58:20 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II In-Reply-To: <86A97F97-705D-4AEB-B16B-96AC15DC8777@ieee.org> References: <86A97F97-705D-4AEB-B16B-96AC15DC8777@ieee.org> Message-ID: <3c56e036-39ec-f115-ea85-39116f7fb75c@verizon.net> On 7/29/2016 10:30 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > On Jul 29, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> >>> On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: >>> >>> I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis. I has a TK50, RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS. >>> >>> The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that might come in handy. >>> >>> Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration? Anyone have experience with this? >>> >>> What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS available? How do you get an OS onto this system? >> The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS v5.5-2. You can get Hobbyist licenses. The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist program. If you add a SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD. IIRC, it will run up to either v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I still do, if it will boot). >> >> Ultrix would also be available. >> >> What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a PDP-11 once I got a better VAX. >> >> I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself. I?d really like to put one on one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233?s. Hopefully they?ll still work. It?s been years since I?ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-( >> > I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2 off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a MicroVax II with 16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either version. You?ll need a DELQA. > > You should be able to build a system with an emulator and then copy the binary to an SD card. i?ve taken images both ways without problems. Alternately if you get a DELQA, you can netboot off of another Vaxen and build an bootable disk that way. > > Jerry The MVII I have has no network card so I may have to prepare the SD card using an emulator. I waiting for the SCSI2SD adapter and the Hobbyist License access at this point. Doug From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Aug 1 22:11:59 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:11:59 -0700 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: <20160801191214.686c3786@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20160801191214.686c3786@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: With the supplies being switchers do not use a autotransfomer (Variac). If they were mine I would replace the caps even if it meant speing $100 or so and waiting. And being switchers they will need a minimum load to operate correctly. -pete On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 7:12 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Hi Hayden, > > On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:29:05 -0600 > Hayden Kroepfl wrote: > > --snip-- > > > With regards to the power supply, I'm thinking my best bet would be > > to do a power on with no cards in the system. Though I'm not sure if > > all the power rails would even come up without a load on it, since it > > sounds like it may do some power sequencing from what I've read. I > > was wondering if anyone has some experience with testing a similar > > power supply that hasn't been run in at least 10 years? > > Those of us who have brought up HP2100s that have been stored (even in > military packaging) know the power supplies can be a "bear". The PS is > a "fold out" deal - and never used to be repaired in the field by FEs. > They were swapped with new units - and the failing supply sent back to > HP for refurbishing. The process was detailed to me by a person who sold > 2100's as an OEM for many years. > > That being said, they are a early design switching supply - and should > have a load when powering them on. > > > I'm not sure if using a variac to slowly warm up the supply and the > > caps would be wise on one of these power supplies. I'm not sure how > > the switching supplies would handle the low voltage at the start. > > I would definitely NOT use a variac on them. It's best to check the > caps (and reform if necessary) and then power it up with a load. You may > have to "gently" (as in slowly) turn the PS on and off a number of times > to work out the years of "dormancy" (reforming the capacitors that you > can't get to ;) > > > The only I/O card that was installed in both machines, besides a > > terminator board in only one of them, is a serial interface made by > > some company with the logo CMC. It uses a COM2502 UART which I was > > surprised to find a datasheet for, however I haven't found any > > information on the card itself. I have a photo of the card in the > > album linked below if anyone has any information on it. > > The 2100 has a weird I/O addressing scheme - so check the manual > carefully. Moving a card from one location to another in the mainframe > changes its address! That's very different from DEC (and many > others) who had switches or jumpers on boards to change addresses. > interrupts, etc. > > > I know this email is getting a bit long, but with regards to the > > memory both machines have a ID(16K) driver board, and two core > > modules. However one machine has both core modules marked 02100-60052 > > on the bridge, and the other has one marked 02100-60052 and the other > > 02100-60054. Is there any difference between these modules? I'd > > assume by the 16K driver in both, that all of the core modules are > > 8KW modules. Would that just be a later revision or is one a > > different size? > > Look on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/21xx/ > and start reading manuals (particularly the Maintenance and Drawings). > There a wealth of information to be found there - and it's what I used > to get my 2100S running. > > --snip-- > > > I'd very much appreciate any help or suggestions that peopleh ave. I > > really want to get at least one of these machines back into full > > working order to have some fun programming with. > > HP2100 restoration is very doable. > > And the 2100 has one of the best front panels going :) > Like how can you not like buttons that light up when you push them!? > > Most of my problems with my 2100S were related to the power supply - > and a few related to memory. > > Wishing you the best!!! > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > 73 AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 2 00:11:17 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 22:11:17 -0700 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> On 8/1/2016 6:29 PM, Hayden Kroepfl wrote: > Hi, > > > I recently acquired a pair of HP 2100A minicomputers locally for very > cheap. Don't think I could get much more local that a guy literally at the > end of my street. He bought them at an auction over ten years ago, never > powered them on, and left them in his garage since. They've likely never > been powered up since they were last in regular use. The units seem to be > complete, apart from missing a few I/O cards that are written onto the top > of the power supply. I don't plan to power them up until I've taken them > apart, cleaned all the dirt and debris from them, and inspected the power > supply. > > With regards to the power supply, I'm thinking my best bet would be to do a > power on with no cards in the system. Though I'm not sure if all the power > rails would even come up without a load on it, since it sounds like it may > do some power sequencing from what I've read. I was wondering if anyone has > some experience with testing a similar power supply that hasn't been run in > at least 10 years? > > I'm not sure if using a variac to slowly warm up the supply and the caps > would be wise on one of these power supplies. I'm not sure how the > switching supplies would handle the low voltage at the start. > > The only I/O card that was installed in both machines, besides a terminator > board in only one of them, is a serial interface made by some company with > the logo CMC. It uses a COM2502 UART which I was surprised to find a > datasheet for, however I haven't found any information on the card itself. > I have a photo of the card in the album linked below if anyone has any > information on it. > > I know this email is getting a bit long, but with regards to the memory > both machines have a ID(16K) driver board, and two core modules. However > one machine has both core modules marked 02100-60052 on the bridge, and the > other has one marked 02100-60052 and the other 02100-60054. Is there any > difference between these modules? I'd assume by the 16K driver in both, > that all of the core modules are 8KW modules. Would that just be a later > revision or is one a different size? > > I've taken some photos of the machines and put them here: > https://goo.gl/photos/z2tGBbNvekwrxS5L9 > > I'll be taking more after I make some space to start taking the units apart > for cleaning and inspection. I've also included photos of the serial > numbers and other badges on the backs if anyone knows of a resource to > decode them. > > I'd very much appreciate any help or suggestions that people have. I really > want to get at least one of these machines back into full working order to > have some fun programming with. > > > Thanks, > > Hayden K. > It's a low frequency, 800Hz IIRC, switcher so don't use a Variac and do have a load. There's a separate manual for the power supply: 02100-60053_PowerSupplyFor2100And2155A_OperatingAndServiceManual_5951-3038_199pages_Apr74.pdf (from bitsavers). It has everything you need. There's a bunch of small electrolytic capacitors on the Inhibit Driver Load Card, A106, that needed to be reformed before my memory would work reliably. They reformed themselves in one of my units. I had memory errors for an hour or so then they went away. On other units, I reformed the caps (took the board out and slowly brought it up on a bench supply), and had no memory errors at first power up of the system. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 2 00:12:18 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 05:12:18 +0000 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You need to get all the service and diagrams manuals for this machine. I think they are on bitsavers and the Australian HP museum site. You probably should go through both of said sites. > With regards to the power supply, I'm thinking my best bet would be to do a > power on with no cards in the system. Though I'm not sure if all the power > rails would even come up without a load on it, since it sounds like it may > do some power sequencing from what I've read. I was wondering if anyone has > some experience with testing a similar power supply that hasn't been run in > at least 10 years? > > I'm not sure if using a variac to slowly warm up the supply and the caps > would be wise on one of these power supplies. I'm not sure how the > switching supplies would handle the low voltage at the start. It's an early-ish, somewhat unconventional, and rather complicated switch mode PSU. It has its own service manual (the CPU manual does not cover it), which is available from at least one of the sites I mentioned. IIRC the manual gives an initial startup/test procedure. You do run it up on a variac, I think, but not in the obvious way. There are separate mains inputs for the PSU control circuitry (which has its own internal linear PSU) and the choppers. You get the first one going, and then run up the choppers. IIRC you do use a dummy load (that is mentioned in the manual) and one part of the test even involves shorting out some of the outputs. > I know this email is getting a bit long, but with regards to the memory > both machines have a ID(16K) driver board, and two core modules. However > one machine has both core modules marked 02100-60052 on the bridge, and the > other has one marked 02100-60052 and the other 02100-60054. Is there any > difference between these modules? I'd assume by the 16K driver in both, > that all of the core modules are 8KW modules. Would that just be a later > revision or is one a different size? That is the part number for the top connector board, not the core memory itself. Electrically the 2 top connectors are identical (pin-pin wired I think). But due to the fact that the top edge fingers on the core board are not aligned with the bottom edge fingers (the core plane is a separate unit, you will see what I mean if you pull the boards), the spacing of the edge connectors on the 2 types of top connector is different. The manual shows which to use where. -tony From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Aug 2 00:25:28 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 22:25:28 -0700 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20160801222528.354a1130@asrock.bcwi.net> On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 22:11:17 -0700 Bob Rosenbloom wrote: --snip-- > There's a bunch of small electrolytic capacitors on the Inhibit > Driver Load Card, A106, that needed to be reformed before my memory > would work reliably. > They reformed themselves in one of my units. I had memory errors for > an hour or so then they went away. On other units, I reformed the > caps (took the board > out and slowly brought it up on a bench supply), and had no memory > errors at first power up of the system. > > Bob I had exactly the same problem with the capacitors on a spare Inhibit Driver Load Card. Most would not reform so I just replaced them with modern caps. The board (and memory) worked perfectly after that. Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 2 01:11:46 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 23:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <07302c81-0102-ad96-7ef2-dcb82e2d0411@sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Aug 1, 16 05:46:46 pm" Message-ID: <201608020611.u726BkPX19596700@floodgap.com> > Win95 for those running NT 3.51 was something of a low point. Compared > to the latter, 95 was a cranky, bug-ridden system that was burdened by > 8.3 file names, limited disk size, etc. I remember BSOD after BSOD when > my NT system ran just fine. By the next year, when NT 4.0 came out, > there was no comparison. > > And 3.51 would run on PPC, MIPS and Alpha platforms. So did 4.0. Early betas of 2000 still ran on Alpha and some others, IIRC, though I believe the PowerPC port was dropped around then. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Chaos reigns within/Reflect, repent and reboot;/Order shall return. -------- From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 01:49:09 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 23:49:09 -0700 Subject: In search of: Fairlight CMI series I or II Message-ID: I know, I know... But I figured I'd try here anyway. Any condition is okay with me. Willing to pay market rates. Cheers, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From pye at mactec.com.au Tue Aug 2 01:56:44 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:56:44 +1000 Subject: In search of: Fairlight CMI series I or II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 2 Aug 2016, at 4:49 pm, Ian Finder wrote: > > I know, I know... But I figured I'd try here anyway. Any condition is okay > with me. Willing to pay market rates. I realise it?s not completely relevant, but I recently sold off my Fairlight CVI. I hung onto it for years because I really like early(ish) digital video systems, and am very fond of the MC6809. I miss it, but needed the money at the time. A CMI would be nice, I also like early EMU gear.. Chris.. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Aug 2 02:28:40 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 00:28:40 -0700 Subject: Copyright act Section 108 Message-ID: <1869567d-7b88-7133-e73f-f18f1f6c8dbc@jwsss.com> IANAL, and this is way off topic, but needs to be put out as there are a lot of ears here that depend on Bitsavers, and probably some of the other Museums. The Copyright office seems to be unhinged with an unrelated matter I won't post here (email me off list if you don't know about it), and is looking at things with a bad eye towards messing things up. This is the Section 108, which probably protects libraries and archives who have the need to allow copies of works made. Bitsavers has a slight off center of that charter in that they collect stuff in a different way than libraries do, but once collected it probably enjoys the protection of this part of the Copyright act. Almost everyone sounds like they are puzzled why it needs messing with, and probably does not. But we should be alert that collateral damage from some idiotic revision doesn't include Bitsavers, Boatanchor, or countless others. Manx? Thanks Jim https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160729/23591535111/copyright-office-intent-changing-part-copyright-that-protects-libraries-archives-even-though-no-one-wants-it-changed.shtml From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Aug 2 03:48:24 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 10:48:24 +0200 Subject: Concurrent Computer Corporation In-Reply-To: References: <20160730175147.GO17920@Update.UU.SE> <2c307cfc9553a91622a7a238cc9448a9@triadic.us> <20160730183533.GP17920@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20160802084824.GY17920@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 11:54:03AM -0700, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Remove the part and set it in a device programmer ? Well yes :) In theory it's simple. In practice, we'll see. I suppose I must figure out what the device is, how to program it, find out which adress to write to, figure out what to write. I've never done it before either, it will be fun. /P > > On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > > > On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 01:58:49PM -0400, alexmcwhirter at triadic.us wrote: > > > I know nothing about this machine in particular, but i know a decent > > amount > > > about other unix machines of the era. Chances are that the copy of RTU on > > > that box is licensed to the serial / id number programmed in nvram. > > Because > > > the nvram is dead, those numbers no longer match and the OS panics from > > an > > > invalid license. > > > > I think you may very well be right. I noticed that the "show" command in > > the console displays the serial number. I went back and compared it with > > the serial number printed on the back of the machine. Well, it doesn't > > match one bit. So.. I either need to figure out to reprogram the NVRAM > > (simply set serial_number doesn't work and the manual lists the > > environment variable as "permanent") or I suppose I could figure out > > where on disk the serial number is.. but it doesn't sound easy. > > > > > The TOD clock typically part of the nvram chip and loses > > > it's value after every reset. If i had to guess, i would say replace the > > > battery / nvram chip (if it's a self contained chip like the old sun > > boxes) > > > and see if you can get enough data together to reprogram it. Whether or > > not > > > the machine in question has a facility to do that like the old sun's do > > i am > > > not sure. > > > > I've battled the NVRAM death and corresponding TOD problems in SGI, SUN > > and DEC machines before but only succeded because the "set" > > functionality of the console was enough... this time I'm not so sure. > > > > /P > > > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Aug 2 03:49:08 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 10:49:08 +0200 Subject: VCF West tickets In-Reply-To: References: <7f0c771e-0d29-542e-cbed-4fa08127313c@snarc.net> <801d7d0c-5dc8-9402-14e0-49ed16f928e8@snarc.net> <000001d1eb45$20a351a0$61e9f4e0$@net> <565b5378-421b-00f9-97a8-ee85b4605ca4@snarc.net> <001301d1eb7f$ee41f910$cac5eb30$@net> Message-ID: <20160802084907.GZ17920@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 09:21:40PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >If the festival continues on in the future you guys may > >seriously want to consider better coordination (e.g. CHM has exhibits open > >on both Saturday and Sunday). > > VCF West is definitely back to stay. You're right, we need to improve some > things for next year. We already had a long list before this ticket > confusion arose. I promise this year's show will be awesome, and next year's > will be awesome-r. Music to my ears :) I was afraid that I was missing out on a one time thing. VCF and CHM are high on my list on things to visit, not this year though. /P From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Aug 2 04:42:30 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 10:42:30 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 01 Aug 2016 20:43:39 -0400" <12a6c5.d5b36e5.44d146bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <01Q39P0FPWFO0000G4@beyondthepale.ie> > > hey! the start it up > song sold me! > it sure was a production eh? > At the time, I wondered about the wisdom of using a song containing lines like: "You make a grown man cry" to market a product to the masses. It appears I may have been overthinking it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Aug 2 05:55:13 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 12:55:13 +0200 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: <01Q39P0FPWFO0000G4@beyondthepale.ie> References: <12a6c5.d5b36e5.44d146bb@aol.com> <01Q39P0FPWFO0000G4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20160802105512.GA17920@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 10:42:30AM +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > > hey! the start it up > > song sold me! > > it sure was a production eh? > > > > At the time, I wondered about the wisdom of using a song containing lines like: > > "You make a grown man cry" > > to market a product to the masses. It appears I may have been overthinking it. > At the time I could never figure out if the song was a joke or not. /P From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 2 09:06:59 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 10:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough to count? Message-ID: <20160802140659.0587618C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > I routinely use Win98SE for my DOS tasks--it boots into DOS quite > nicely if you edit the MSDOS.SYS file to say BootGUI=0. That's considerably more elegant than the way I use, to get my 98SE boxes to boot into DOS to start with (which I prefer, in case I want to do anything that requires Windows not to be running, e.g. disk repairs); I just re-named 'WIN.COM' to 'LOSE.COM'. So I get an error message grumbling that it can't find WIN.COM, and then it falls into DOS. Of course, my way, I do get the ineffable pleasure of saying "LOSE" to start Windows, every time I boot the machines. Never gets old. Noel From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 09:17:46 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 08:17:46 -0600 Subject: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough to count? In-Reply-To: References: <20160731162357.GA11329@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: > > Exactly! This! > > All versions of W9x run in 386 protected mode, with DOS sessions in > the 386's Virtual 8086 mode. > > There was no difference that I'm aware of between them. > > Between WfWg 3.11 and 9x, yes. Between 9x and NT, yes. But 95/98/ME, no, > TTBOMK. > > If there _was_ some difference, [a] it was lept _very_ quiet, and [b], > I want to know! > > I wrote at some length about these differences at: https://youngmumpster.wordpress.com/2013/10/13/windows-multitasking-a-historical-aside/ a few years ago. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 09:19:53 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 10:19:53 -0400 Subject: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough to count? In-Reply-To: <20160802140659.0587618C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160802140659.0587618C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > I routinely use Win98SE for my DOS tasks--it boots into DOS quite > > nicely if you edit the MSDOS.SYS file to say BootGUI=0. > > That's considerably more elegant than the way I use, to get my 98SE boxes > to > boot into DOS to start with (which I prefer, in case I want to do anything > that requires Windows not to be running, e.g. disk repairs); I just > re-named > 'WIN.COM' to 'LOSE.COM'. So I get an error message grumbling that it can't > find WIN.COM, and then it falls into DOS. > > Of course, my way, I do get the ineffable pleasure of saying "LOSE" to > start > Windows, every time I boot the machines. Never gets old. > > Noel > I built a dual-boot Win 2000 / DOS 6 Pentium III box, gives me the choice which OS to boot to upon boot. My A drive is a 5 1/4" drive, B drive is a 8 in drive. I like WIn 2000 a lot better than Win 98. There are still tentacles to modernity with 2000 a good bridge system. -- @ BillDeg From ethan at 757.org Tue Aug 2 09:56:39 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 10:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)) In-Reply-To: <20160802005404.C8CBB2073CCF@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <1004d0.4bb9c9fe.44bf4650@aol.com> <201607191653.MAA10236@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160802005404.C8CBB2073CCF@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > No, Brad was not the founder of NewTek. He did do early designs of the Toaster. > - John Derp! Checked, he built the first Video Toaster but not the company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Carvey Thanks for the correction! -- Ethan O'Toole From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 2 11:11:19 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 12:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FTGH: RL01 pack Message-ID: <20160802161119.70E2718C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I have an RL01 pack, and no RL01 drives. Free to someone who can make use of it. (Note: it's missing its protective bottom cover.) If you have something I can use, to send the other way, so much the better! ;-) Noel From doug-cctalk at dpf.cc Tue Aug 2 11:26:56 2016 From: doug-cctalk at dpf.cc (Doug Fields) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 12:26:56 -0400 Subject: Pictures per previous post In-Reply-To: References: <1DF03BE6-9C4B-4F2A-971F-4B8C17240FB3@dpf.cc> <02cb01d1ec3f$17d2c9c0$47785d40$@com> <725F0C4C-943F-47F5-A5C2-1A159E7C5925@dpf.cc> <5EB511A4-6C97-4832-B1C9-A5A4F4059C36@dpf.cc> Message-ID: <7C5B95F3-5F82-4A98-9070-4FD8F4FFA9AB@dpf.cc> So, the full story: I was chatting and mentioned that I thought it would be great to get a Multiflow like I used back in college. Lo and behold, someone saw one listed on eBay, so I immediately hit "Buy it now" when I saw the poster saying "the next stop for this is the scrap yard." I'm in New York, but the thing is in Austin, so I had to go to Austin. Talked to the seller, who told me she had a storage unit of other old computers. So, I flew down to move the Multiflow and looked at her other computers. There were a bunch, as you've seen in the pictures. There were also manuals and 5.25" disks for quite a few old pieces of software including Microsoft Word, Great Plains, Peachtree, etc. There were several few portable PCs including a Compaq luggable and a Panasonic that makes the Compaq look small. There were a ton of old printing calculators. There were other interesting things like the Evans & Sutherland Freedom 1000 with Am-something CPUs, a Sun Graphics Tower, the 2x PC RTs, the Motorola "MicroPersonal Computer," a bunch of boards for something that was labeled "Ametek," and of course the aforementioned things that I brought back with me to New York. I posted the seller's e-mail, so if anyone wants anything else, please contact her. My goal in taking the things home was to save them for people who care about this stuff. I personally want to revive the TI Explorer II, HP 85 and the C64 (never had one in an earlier age), and I brought the rest for others I know (some on this list) who were interested in some of the pieces like the 3b2 and the Blit. The seller wasn't willing to ship, but I was out of space in both the car and the plane, so that was that. Hope others can get some things they would like to save from the seller too. Cheers, Doug > On Aug 1, 2016, at 9:31 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > Just to clarify did you 'rescue' these hoping to find good homes for > them later - or to keep for yourself? > > If the former I would definitely be interested in the TI Explorer - and the RT. > > Mike > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Doug Fields wrote: >> I took these things home with me: >> >> TI Explorer II >> AT&T 3b2-1000-70 & BLIT monitor >> Commodore 64 + disk drive >> HP 85 (non-B, I think) >> Bunch of NeXT manuals and PowerPC 601/603/604 manuals >> >> Cheers, >> >> Doug >> >>> On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >>> >>> On Aug 1, 2016 2:57 PM, "Doug Fields" wrote: >>>> >>>> Apparently the list strips HTML out, which I didn't know. >>>> >>>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL < >>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL> >>>> >>>> Try that? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Doug >>> >>> TI Explorer II - someone is probably interested in that one. >>> >> > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 11:42:14 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 09:42:14 -0700 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: <20160801222528.354a1130@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> <20160801222528.354a1130@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 22:11:17 -0700 > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > --snip-- > >> There's a bunch of small electrolytic capacitors on the Inhibit >> Driver Load Card, A106, that needed to be reformed before my memory >> would work reliably. > >> They reformed themselves in one of my units. I had memory errors for >> an hour or so then they went away. On other units, I reformed the >> caps (took the board > >> out and slowly brought it up on a bench supply), and had no memory >> errors at first power up of the system. >> >> Bob > > I had exactly the same problem with the capacitors on a spare Inhibit > Driver Load Card. Most would not reform so I just replaced them with > modern caps. The board (and memory) worked perfectly after that. > > Lyle That is good information to know. I have a 2100A that I haven't touched in a while. It had memory issues that I never got around to trying to debug. Next time I work on it I'll look at the IDL card. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Aug 2 11:57:22 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 12:57:22 -0400 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration Message-ID: <4bcd59.4482261e.44d22af2@aol.com> Back in the day we were running and selling 2000 gear in the 80's never had a bad power supply. one fan died in our 2000 F/ access system and rather than tear it down to replace the fan.... just bolted a mother of a fan to the back of the processor over the space the dead fan was. Like the story of the shoemakers kids that never got new shoes as the shoemaker was busy helping everyone else.... this poor processor to this very day still has that fan on the back of the processor...... Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 8/2/2016 9:42:19 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, glen.slick at gmail.com writes: On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 22:11:17 -0700 > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > --snip-- > >> There's a bunch of small electrolytic capacitors on the Inhibit >> Driver Load Card, A106, that needed to be reformed before my memory >> would work reliably. > >> They reformed themselves in one of my units. I had memory errors for >> an hour or so then they went away. On other units, I reformed the >> caps (took the board > >> out and slowly brought it up on a bench supply), and had no memory >> errors at first power up of the system. >> >> Bob > > I had exactly the same problem with the capacitors on a spare Inhibit > Driver Load Card. Most would not reform so I just replaced them with > modern caps. The board (and memory) worked perfectly after that. > > Lyle That is good information to know. I have a 2100A that I haven't touched in a while. It had memory issues that I never got around to trying to debug. Next time I work on it I'll look at the IDL card. From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Aug 2 15:36:44 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 15:36:44 -0500 Subject: Pictures per previous post In-Reply-To: <7C5B95F3-5F82-4A98-9070-4FD8F4FFA9AB@dpf.cc> References: <1DF03BE6-9C4B-4F2A-971F-4B8C17240FB3@dpf.cc> <02cb01d1ec3f$17d2c9c0$47785d40$@com> <725F0C4C-943F-47F5-A5C2-1A159E7C5925@dpf.cc> <5EB511A4-6C97-4832-B1C9-A5A4F4059C36@dpf.cc> <7C5B95F3-5F82-4A98-9070-4FD8F4FFA9AB@dpf.cc> Message-ID: <20160802203644.GA28219@lonesome.com> As a postscript, I was going to try to meet up with Doug and trade war stories, but I had just gotten back from a 5-week road trip a few days earlier and was glued to the couch. But next time, if anyone on the list is coming through Austin please let me know. About all I can pick up and move around by myself is a 2U though :-) Now, 16-ounce lifts, I *can* do. (And these days I have time to fool around with this stuff more as I just retired.) mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Aug 2 15:40:58 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 15:40:58 -0500 Subject: Pictures per previous post In-Reply-To: <20160802203644.GA28219@lonesome.com> References: <1DF03BE6-9C4B-4F2A-971F-4B8C17240FB3@dpf.cc> <02cb01d1ec3f$17d2c9c0$47785d40$@com> <725F0C4C-943F-47F5-A5C2-1A159E7C5925@dpf.cc> <5EB511A4-6C97-4832-B1C9-A5A4F4059C36@dpf.cc> <7C5B95F3-5F82-4A98-9070-4FD8F4FFA9AB@dpf.cc> <20160802203644.GA28219@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20160802204058.GB28219@lonesome.com> On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 03:36:44PM -0500, Mark Linimon wrote: > (And these days I have time to fool around with this stuff more as I > just retired.) Which means I owe a couple of people on this list responses to earlier email, too. mcl From kirkbdavis at me.com Tue Aug 2 16:06:37 2016 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 14:06:37 -0700 Subject: RX02 Debugging In-Reply-To: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I?m a noob using RX02?s but thought I?d run this past people that may have debugged them in the past and see if they agree with what I?m finding: I?m trying to get a RX02 + RX211 + 11/44 going. The RX02 appears to power up OK (fan and motor spinning). I verified I have the DY boot rom in the 44. Attempt booting from the console: >>>b dy S 17777707 173436 Which halts in the DY boot rom. I look at the base RX211 register: >>>e 17777170 17777170 104040 From the manual this like the controller is present but the high order bit is set indicating an error Looking at the status register; >>>e 17777172 17777172 000010 Bit 3 == RX AC LO - This bit is set by the interface to indicate a power failure in the RX02 sub- system. So start looking at the RX02 power supply? From perlpowers at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 16:09:51 2016 From: perlpowers at gmail.com (Hayden Kroepfl) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 15:09:51 -0600 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> <20160801222528.354a1130@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: Alright, thanks for all the helpful tips and information. I guess what I'll do when disassembling it is note down every electrolytic, and probably just throw them all into a Digikey order that I'm working on for other repairs. Probably will give reforming a try if it seems practical, but I assume on the power supply that's going to mean desoldering one leg on each cap. At that point it's probably better to just replace the cap. My only worry would be obsolete/oddball cap values that I'd have to inspect the circuit to see what replacement I can use, eg. 290uF and 250uF caps. On another note, has anyone ever tried making their own I/O boards for any of the 2100 series computers? The closest I found was http://newton.freehostia.com/hp/ where he makes a paper tape emulator and disk interface. However both of those are designed to connect to an existing I/O board like the "microcircuit interface". I haven't seen anything yet on how to interface to the I/O bus, but then again there are thousands of pages of manuals still to browse through. On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Lyle Bickley > wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 22:11:17 -0700 > > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > > > --snip-- > > > >> There's a bunch of small electrolytic capacitors on the Inhibit > >> Driver Load Card, A106, that needed to be reformed before my memory > >> would work reliably. > > > >> They reformed themselves in one of my units. I had memory errors for > >> an hour or so then they went away. On other units, I reformed the > >> caps (took the board > > > >> out and slowly brought it up on a bench supply), and had no memory > >> errors at first power up of the system. > >> > >> Bob > > > > I had exactly the same problem with the capacitors on a spare Inhibit > > Driver Load Card. Most would not reform so I just replaced them with > > modern caps. The board (and memory) worked perfectly after that. > > > > Lyle > > That is good information to know. I have a 2100A that I haven't > touched in a while. It had memory issues that I never got around to > trying to debug. Next time I work on it I'll look at the IDL card. > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 2 16:24:00 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:24:00 -0500 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> <20160801222528.354a1130@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <000001d1ed04$2fba36c0$8f2ea440$@classiccmp.org> There is an HP book specifically on I/O interfacing to the 2100 (and 21MX) I/O bus. I think there's also an abbreviated chapter on it in a different manual. I'll see if I can dig up the name and if it's online anywhere. I've restored at least five 2100's, and run a dual cpu 2100A & 2100S system regularly. I have never heard of nor seen a power supply failure on any of them. The power supply always came up with little or no pot adjustment, and nothing else required. I'd be surprised if your PS needed any attention unless they were under water. Debugging the memory section is a far different matter. It's far *far* easier to troubleshoot if you have a known working set. If not, it's very easy for boards to test ok and then later fail and then later test ok (bad upper section of a 16K driver, etc.). J From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Aug 2 16:46:25 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 23:46:25 +0200 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: <000001d1ed04$2fba36c0$8f2ea440$@classiccmp.org> References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> <20160801222528.354a1130@asrock.bcwi.net> <000001d1ed04$2fba36c0$8f2ea440$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000901d1ed07$521b4d50$f651e7f0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jay West > Verzonden: dinsdag 2 augustus 2016 23:24 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: RE: HP 2100A Restoration > > > There is an HP book specifically on I/O interfacing to the 2100 (and 21MX) I/O > bus. I think there's also an abbreviated chapter on it in a different manual. I'll see > if I can dig up the name and if it's online anywhere. > > I've restored at least five 2100's, and run a dual cpu 2100A & 2100S system > regularly. I have never heard of nor seen a power supply failure on any of them. > The power supply always came up with little or no pot adjustment, and nothing > else required. I'd be surprised if your PS needed any attention unless they were > under water. > > Debugging the memory section is a far different matter. It's far *far* easier to > troubleshoot if you have a known working set. If not, it's very easy for boards to > test ok and then later fail and then later test ok (bad upper section of a 16K > driver, etc.). > > J About power supply failures mine did have one, when under power after a few minutes there was a loud bang and the system resets. Which would be repeated every few minutes, some investigating and measurement later I discovered one of the high voltage elco's shorted every few minutes. Which started the power on cycle and resets the cpu. After replacing those all voltages were stable and in range and the banging was over ;) After some testing I concluded there were some faults in the cpu, being the lucky owner of an extender board I was able to fix all the errors. The HP 2100 service manual and hardware course and engineering reference are a big help fixing the 2100 and as J says a set of known good cards can be of help too. But knowledge of the working of the micro instructions is also a big help, IRC the micro instructions are described in both the engineering reference and the service manual both can be found on bitsavers. The only weak point of the 2100 is the use of uCTL a Fiarchild DTL derivate used for IO drivers in the 2100 series. Brent Hilpert has a lot of info on his site about those gates. -Rik From chrise at pobox.com Tue Aug 2 17:04:43 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 17:04:43 -0500 Subject: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160802220443.GA3997@n0jcf.net> On Monday (08/01/2016 at 08:24PM -0700), Brad H wrote: > > > Thanks Chris.. yes I think you are correct. ?Here is a photo of it: > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20160520_194139_zpswkjgwf17.jpg.html Yup. PERCOM LFD-400. Two of the EPROMs on there make up their little "DOS". It's pretty crude in the modern sense in that you deal with everything by tracks and sectors and the MINIDOS+ extension in the second PROM adds simple named files but otherwise you are just saving and loading memory images to tracks and sectors on a floppy. Nothing handles recovery of deleted space or allows for non-contiguous blocks within a file. They were just getting started with floppies around 1977 when that board was first available. The entry point to this DOS was usually at $C000. So, if you can figure out how to get your monitor to jump to an address, that's where you'd want to go to get the DOS executing. I don't know what the third PROM would be for on your board. It might be driver extensions/support for another operating system or could be really anything. In my system, I put a Diablo daisy wheel printer driver into that third PROM. The PROMs are at $C000, $C400 and $C800. With MIKBUG monitor, to jump to $C000, you would put that address into RAM locations $A048 and $A049. $A048=$C0, $A049=$00 and then use the "G" function to GO to that address. With SWTBUG, the "Z" function jumped to $C000 directly. Maybe your WEEBUG has "G" or "Z"?? With both MIKBUG and SWTBUG, you could examine and change memory with "M", *M A048 A048 C0 A049 00 A04A 55 * > This is the CPU board. ?I'm wondering why it has four EPROMs, and what the two unmarked do. ?This is where I wish there were a manual.. or even a good pic of an untouched original board to compare. > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20160520_194018_zps8odxjmid.jpg.html > I'd just settle for being able to fool around in the monitor. ?But I think this monitor is called WEEBUG because it's very stripped down. Yes. I haven't heard of WEEBUG until your posting. And see nothing after some web searching other than this old post, http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=732&st=1 Where a guy named "Dana Peterson (Arizon)" says he was the designer of the MSI 6800. Maybe he can be tracked down? Good luck. It's a nice system. Chris > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chris Elmquist > Date: 2016-08-01 8:14 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , Brad H > Subject: Re: Midwest Scientific Instruments 6800 > > I have all kinds of SWTPC 6800 stuff here and I think I recognize your floppy controller as a PERCOM LFD-400 board.? These are somewhat unique because they are built around a sync USART (S2650) and use 10-hole hard-sector floppy media (just like Heath H17 and Northstar systems). > > Can you see any PERCOM logo on the floppy controller board? > > Are there two 2708 EPROM on that board? > > Chris > > > > > > On August 1, 2016 12:32:49 PM CDT, Brad H wrote: > >Just thought I'd send out another shout out to anyone who might have > >one of these or is familiar with them. ?I've had this a while but have > >not really been able to use it, lacking a boot disk. ?It also doesn't > >have the standard MSIBUG ROM. ?I'm hoping maybe someone out there knows > >how I could procure the original ROMs and put this back to stock. > >I made a video showing the current 'WEEBUG' ROM in case any are curious > >or someone out there knows about it. > >Thanks! > >https://youtu.be/LY7yoAVxSrM > > > > > > > >Sent from my Samsung device > > -- > Chris Elmquist -- Chris Elmquist From jsw at ieee.org Tue Aug 2 17:10:49 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 17:10:49 -0500 Subject: RX02 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <6996392E-44A0-457D-8B62-0B63C2401C51@ieee.org> > On Aug 2, 2016, at 4:06 PM, Kirk Davis wrote: > > I?m a noob using RX02?s but thought I?d run this past people that may have debugged them in the past and see if they agree with what I?m finding: > > I?m trying to get a RX02 + RX211 + 11/44 going. The RX02 appears to power up OK (fan and motor spinning). I verified I have the DY boot rom in the 44. Attempt booting from the console: > >>>> b dy > > S > 17777707 173436 > > Which halts in the DY boot rom. I look at the base RX211 register: > >>>> e 17777170 > 17777170 104040 > > From the manual this like the controller is present but the high order bit is set indicating an error > > Looking at the status register; > >>>> e 17777172 > 17777172 000010 > > Bit 3 == RX AC LO - This bit is set by the interface to indicate a power failure in the RX02 sub- system. > > So start looking at the RX02 power supply? > If you haven?t already, check the cable seating, orientation and for bent pins. On the RX211 board J1 - TT is the location of the AC LO - Active Low signal. Jerry From useddec at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 17:24:08 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 17:24:08 -0500 Subject: RX02 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hi KIrk, The H771 is a rock solid power supply. I never saw one go bad while in field service, but they are getting old. Checking the output voltage and ripple is not a bad idea. forgive me for asking, but where are you located? The RX02 had 4 different power hanesses for i20, 220, 50 hz and 60 hz. Also different belts amd pulleys. if any of this is wrong you cn see weird problems. A lot of RX02s and replacement drives were soul through brokers who never asked or were never told where the unit was going. if you aren'y useing 120/60 that would be my first thought. Is the problem the same when booting off either drive? Also check the switches and the resistors on the head cables. Good luck, Paul On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Kirk Davis wrote: > I?m a noob using RX02?s but thought I?d run this past people that may have > debugged them in the past and see if they agree with what I?m finding: > > I?m trying to get a RX02 + RX211 + 11/44 going. The RX02 appears to power > up OK (fan and motor spinning). I verified I have the DY boot rom in the > 44. Attempt booting from the console: > > >>>b dy > > S > 17777707 173436 > > Which halts in the DY boot rom. I look at the base RX211 register: > > >>>e 17777170 > 17777170 104040 > > From the manual this like the controller is present but the high order bit > is set indicating an error > > Looking at the status register; > > >>>e 17777172 > 17777172 000010 > > Bit 3 == RX AC LO - This bit is set by the interface to indicate a power > failure in the RX02 sub- system. > > So start looking at the RX02 power supply? > > > From perlpowers at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 17:54:49 2016 From: perlpowers at gmail.com (Hayden Kroepfl) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:54:49 -0600 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: <000901d1ed07$521b4d50$f651e7f0$@xs4all.nl> References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> <20160801222528.354a1130@asrock.bcwi.net> <000001d1ed04$2fba36c0$8f2ea440$@classiccmp.org> <000901d1ed07$521b4d50$f651e7f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Well I'm hoping for the memory section that I can find at least one of the 4 core boards that works right away. I've got an 8k driver board I can swap it so I could run the system on only a single core board if needed. I'd probably write a short program to do a bunch of memory writes, reads, and such to exercise it for a few hours or such. The power supply going bang is one of my worries. I've got an old 80s logic analyzer with power supply issues, while testing got a big spark by one of the huge filter caps in it and it put me off working on it for a long while XD. It would have been quite nice if there was no CTuL logic in the system, when repairing my Altair if I find a dead logic chip I can still buy modern compatible replacements. If one of these die, I'd probably have to build a circuit out of discrete transistors on an ugly protoboard. On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jay West > > Verzonden: dinsdag 2 augustus 2016 23:24 > > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Onderwerp: RE: HP 2100A Restoration > > > > > > There is an HP book specifically on I/O interfacing to the 2100 (and > 21MX) I/O > > bus. I think there's also an abbreviated chapter on it in a different > manual. I'll see > > if I can dig up the name and if it's online anywhere. > > > > I've restored at least five 2100's, and run a dual cpu 2100A & 2100S > system > > regularly. I have never heard of nor seen a power supply failure on any > of them. > > The power supply always came up with little or no pot adjustment, and > nothing > > else required. I'd be surprised if your PS needed any attention unless > they were > > under water. > > > > Debugging the memory section is a far different matter. It's far *far* > easier to > > troubleshoot if you have a known working set. If not, it's very easy for > boards to > > test ok and then later fail and then later test ok (bad upper section of > a 16K > > driver, etc.). > > > > J > > About power supply failures mine did have one, when under power after a > few minutes there was a loud bang and the system resets. > Which would be repeated every few minutes, some investigating and > measurement later I discovered one of the high voltage elco's shorted every > few minutes. > Which started the power on cycle and resets the cpu. > After replacing those all voltages were stable and in range and the > banging was over ;) > > After some testing I concluded there were some faults in the cpu, being > the lucky owner of an extender board I was able to fix all the errors. > The HP 2100 service manual and hardware course and engineering reference > are a big help fixing the 2100 and as J says a set of known good cards can > be of help too. > But knowledge of the working of the micro instructions is also a big help, > IRC the micro instructions are described in both the engineering reference > and the service manual both can be found on bitsavers. > > The only weak point of the 2100 is the use of uCTL a Fiarchild DTL > derivate used for IO drivers in the 2100 series. > Brent Hilpert has a lot of info on his site about those gates. > > -Rik > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 18:00:20 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:00:20 -0700 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> <20160801222528.354a1130@asrock.bcwi.net> <000001d1ed04$2fba36c0$8f2ea440$@classiccmp.org> <000901d1ed07$521b4d50$f651e7f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Aug 2, 2016 3:55 PM, "Hayden Kroepfl" wrote: > > Well I'm hoping for the memory section that I can find at least one of the > 4 core boards that works right away. I've got an 8k driver board I can swap > it so I could run the system on only a single core board if needed. I'd > probably write a short program to do a bunch of memory writes, reads, and > such to exercise it for a few hours or such. > Isn't there a looping memory test capability built in through the front panel? Maybe you have to flip a switch or something to enable that. I'd have to look at the manual to remind myself. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Aug 2 18:08:02 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 00:08:02 +0100 Subject: Irix 5.3 drivers Message-ID: I realise this is a bit of a long shot, but does anyone have the driver CD "GIO Fast Ethernet 1.0 for Irix 5.3 and 2.0 for Irix 6.2", SGI part number 812-0576-001? This is the drivers for SGI's own Fast Ethernet card, not the Phobos/3Com ones. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Aug 2 18:29:03 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 19:29:03 -0400 Subject: Transitional Technology SCSI controller Message-ID: I have an S-Box Q-bus SCSI controller made by Transitional Technology, it is missing two socketed chips; the PROM and what I think is a static RAM chip, both 28 pins. Does anyone have the HEX file of the PROM? Does anyone know what the RAM chip is? I curious to take a shot and see if this thing works. The board doesn't have jumpers, is it hardwired to some CSR? Thanks. Doug From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 2 18:33:18 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 18:33:18 -0500 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> <20160801222528.354a1130@asrock.bcwi.net> <000001d1ed04$2fba36c0$8f2ea440$@classiccmp.org> <000901d1ed07$521b4d50$f651e7f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000001d1ed16$40105290$c030f7b0$@classiccmp.org> Glen wrote... ------ Isn't there a looping memory test capability built in through the front panel? Maybe you have to flip a switch or something to enable that. I'd have to look at the manual to remind myself. ------ My foggy memory is telling me the same thing as Glen mentions above. The 21MX (m/e/f) definitely has a built in microcoded memory test, but I don't recall 100% on the 2100. Hayden wrote.... ----- Well I'm hoping for the memory section that I can find at least one of the 4 core boards that works right away. I've got an 8k driver board I can swap it so I could run the system on only a single core board if needed. ----- That's the problem, what I was referring to earlier. You can't really test just a 4K board. Its been a long while since I had to pop the cover on a 2100 thus my recent brain memory is all 21MX stuff. But as I recall a minimal 2100 memory section is memory controller, ID, XYD, and core. You will be unlikely to tell which of the 4 is causing issues just with front panel tests. A typical program doing read/write/compare can fail with no indication which of the 4 boards is really the problem. Swapping is problematic if there are several bad boards. You can also run into a difficult to test situation if a 16K ID board is bad "at the top", meaning an 8K board tests ok, but the same board tests bad if it's at "the next 8K". Or if you add another 8K, determining if it's the 8K or the upper part of the 16K ID that's faulting. Troubleshooting the memory of a 2100 via boardswapping with no known good boards is ... irksome. Understatement of the year. One thing to keep aware of (this is sketchy, as it's very foggy memory)... I think there is a switch on the panel (under the cover I think) that lets you clear or set all memory INCLUDING the parity bit (memory is 17 bits on these). If you don't do this between memory tests - and you have some board that is not setting memory parity correctly for each word, you are really gonna be scratching your head. Once you get bad parity bit status, you have to wipe before retesting. One other thing I remember from working on the 2100's.... there was some setting - probably power supply voltages, or something with the memory section - that was temperature sensitive. You had to adjust some trimpot or the like based on the room temperature (+/- a window of course). J From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 18:39:08 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:39:08 -0700 Subject: Transitional Technology SCSI controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 2, 2016 4:31 PM, "Douglas Taylor" wrote: > > I have an S-Box Q-bus SCSI controller made by Transitional Technology, it is missing two socketed chips; the PROM and what I think is a static RAM chip, both 28 pins. Does anyone have the HEX file of the PROM? Does anyone know what the RAM chip is? I curious to take a shot and see if this thing works. > > The board doesn't have jumpers, is it hardwired to some CSR? Thanks. > > Doug > I have a TTi QTS-30 which is TMSCP tape only. No MSCP disk support. If there are no jumpers (I don't have it front of me to check at the moment) then it must be soft configurable through the 10-pin serial port interface. Post a picture of your board or send me one direct and I'll see if it looks the same as my board. If it is I can dump the EPROM firmware in mine for you. Maybe two EPROMs for 16-bit wide firmware. From perlpowers at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 18:54:44 2016 From: perlpowers at gmail.com (Hayden Kroepfl) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 17:54:44 -0600 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: <000001d1ed16$40105290$c030f7b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> <20160801222528.354a1130@asrock.bcwi.net> <000001d1ed04$2fba36c0$8f2ea440$@classiccmp.org> <000901d1ed07$521b4d50$f651e7f0$@xs4all.nl> <000001d1ed16$40105290$c030f7b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I've also got two additional boards in a bag that I haven't taken out yet https://goo.gl/photos/D4quXT992Y6huQoAA . They're in there quite tightly, but I did take a peek at some of the chips that I could see from the edge. Couldn't read the part number, but they were Intel chips and almost looked to me like they were early static ram. If they are I know it might not help with testing the memory but might help with making sure the CPU works first. Not sure which slot though they'd install to even if they were, I'd presume the white slots. For the memory test I don't see any (visible) front panel switches that would indicate a memory test, the ones that I can see just look like they're for direct depositing into core. But I'll have to check the manual for that. On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Jay West wrote: > > Glen wrote... > ------ > Isn't there a looping memory test capability built in through the front > panel? Maybe you have to flip a switch or something to enable that. I'd > have to look at the manual to remind myself. > ------ > My foggy memory is telling me the same thing as Glen mentions above. The > 21MX (m/e/f) definitely has a built in microcoded memory test, but I don't > recall 100% on the 2100. > > Hayden wrote.... > ----- > Well I'm hoping for the memory section that I can find at least one of the > 4 core boards that works right away. I've got an 8k driver board I can > swap it so I could run the system on only a single core board if needed. > ----- > > That's the problem, what I was referring to earlier. You can't really test > just a 4K board. Its been a long while since I had to pop the cover on a > 2100 thus my recent brain memory is all 21MX stuff. But as I recall a > minimal 2100 memory section is memory controller, ID, XYD, and core. You > will be unlikely to tell which of the 4 is causing issues just with front > panel tests. A typical program doing read/write/compare can fail with no > indication which of the 4 boards is really the problem. Swapping is > problematic if there are several bad boards. You can also run into a > difficult to test situation if a 16K ID board is bad "at the top", meaning > an 8K board tests ok, but the same board tests bad if it's at "the next > 8K". Or if you add another 8K, determining if it's the 8K or the upper part > of the 16K ID that's faulting. > > Troubleshooting the memory of a 2100 via boardswapping with no known good > boards is ... irksome. Understatement of the year. > > One thing to keep aware of (this is sketchy, as it's very foggy memory)... > I think there is a switch on the panel (under the cover I think) that lets > you clear or set all memory INCLUDING the parity bit (memory is 17 bits on > these). If you don't do this between memory tests - and you have some board > that is not setting memory parity correctly for each word, you are really > gonna be scratching your head. Once you get bad parity bit status, you have > to wipe before retesting. > > One other thing I remember from working on the 2100's.... there was some > setting - probably power supply voltages, or something with the memory > section - that was temperature sensitive. You had to adjust some trimpot or > the like based on the room temperature (+/- a window of course). > > J > > > From rlloken at telus.net Tue Aug 2 18:57:10 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 17:57:10 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Tek 4025 and 4017 Terminal option 31 kit to give away Message-ID: I was rooting through the drawers in the shop looking for some torx screwdrivers and I found a Tek 4025 option 31 field upgrade kit part # 18-0124-00. This is complete in its original beat up box and useful only on a Tektronix 4025 or 4027 graphics terminal and there are none of those anywhere near here. Option 31 is a character set upgrade kit and has a printed circuit board, two character set ROMs, a DOS 5-1/4 floppy disk containing who know what, and a ribbon cable. And instructions. In the box, but unrelated, is an NIB key for a keyboard Tek part # 260-1924-00 and a used key cap (from a 4025?) labelled ERASE. Anybody want it for the postage? It should be fairly cheap to mail. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 19:14:11 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 17:14:11 -0700 Subject: Transitional Technology SCSI controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 2, 2016 4:39 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > On Aug 2, 2016 4:31 PM, "Douglas Taylor" wrote: > > > > I have an S-Box Q-bus SCSI controller made by Transitional Technology, it is missing two socketed chips; the PROM and what I think is a static RAM chip, both 28 pins. Does anyone have the HEX file of the PROM? Does anyone know what the RAM chip is? I curious to take a shot and see if this thing works. > > > > The board doesn't have jumpers, is it hardwired to some CSR? Thanks. > > > > Doug > > > > I have a TTi QTS-30 which is TMSCP tape only. No MSCP disk support. If there are no jumpers (I don't have it front of me to check at the moment) then it must be soft configurable through the 10-pin serial port interface. > > Post a picture of your board or send me one direct and I'll see if it looks the same as my board. If it is I can dump the EPROM firmware in mine for you. Maybe two EPROMs for 16-bit wide firmware. Responding to my own previous post. First, it is a TTi QTS-3, not QTS-30. The plain dual wide version without the S-Box handles is the QTS-1. Second, I can confirm that the CSR address is configured through the 10-pin serial port. Last, there is a single firmware EPROM. The other 28-pin socket is an 8KB SRAM. A Fujitsu 8464A on one of my boards and an Inmos IMS1630P on the other. Any standard 8KB SRAM of same or better speed (didn't check the speed grade) would likely be fine. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 2 19:20:33 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 19:20:33 -0500 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> <20160801222528.354a1130@asrock.bcwi.net> <000001d1ed04$2fba36c0$8f2ea440$@classiccmp.org> <000901d1ed07$521b4d50$f651e7f0$@xs4all.nl> <000001d1ed16$40105290$c030f7b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000101d1ed1c$da2881d0$8e798570$@classiccmp.org> Hayden wrote.... ----- I've also got two additional boards in a bag that I haven't taken out yet https://goo.gl/photos/D4quXT992Y6huQoAA . They're in there quite tightly, but I did take a peek at some of the chips that I could see from the edge. Couldn't read the part number, but they were Intel chips and almost looked to me like they were early static ram. ----- I can't make anything out from that picture. One word of caution - HP intended the handles to be color coded to at least show what area they should plug in to on the 2100. Do not take that as absolute. I have seen first-hand where users replaced a broken handle with whatever color they had spare. Also, color coding on the 21MX (where I/O cards are interchangeable with the 2100) was not necessary and not always done. Moving those back to a 2100 could make you think the wrong thing if you follow handle color blindly. And.... ------ If they are I know it might not help with testing the memory but might help with making sure the CPU works first. Not sure which slot though they'd install to even if they were, I'd presume the white slots. ------ I am not super smart electronics wise, I'm a neophyte. But I can't comprehend any way that sram could be used in that card cage. Let me give strong clear warning.... do not plug any board into any slot unless you are 1000% sure that it is supposed to go there. You WILL let out the magic smoke. With very few exceptions, most of those slots are wired differently and expect certain things to be plugged in there. As I recall, the memory section "power in" pins carry enough current to create a permanent glitch. And.... ----- For the memory test I don't see any (visible) front panel switches that would indicate a memory test, the ones that I can see just look like they're for direct depositing into core. But I'll have to check the manual for that. ----- To see the switches I am referring to - you will have to take off the white bezel around the front panel. 4 hex head bolts, two on each side, about 1/2 inch back from the front. HOLD the bezel when you take out the screws so it doesn't fall. It's not going to break, but may break whatever it falls on. Also, pull it forward, and don't let it slide down (the wire wrapped "edge card" pins are at the top, you don't want the bezel to hit them). And again - as I recall the switches weren't specifically for a memory test. I think they were to assist in clearing memory. One of them may have made microcode singlestep... I think there were at least 2 and maybe 4 slide switches under the panel. See operators guide :) J From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 2 23:19:25 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 21:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Irix 5.3 drivers In-Reply-To: from Pete Turnbull at "Aug 3, 16 00:08:02 am" Message-ID: <201608030419.u734JPZB23659112@floodgap.com> > I realise this is a bit of a long shot, but does anyone have the driver > CD "GIO Fast Ethernet 1.0 for Irix 5.3 and 2.0 for Irix 6.2", SGI part > number 812-0576-001? > > This is the drivers for SGI's own Fast Ethernet card, not the > Phobos/3Com ones. I don't, but I bet someone on Nekochan does. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- select unique ("Just another SQL hacker") jash from id_rec order by 1; ----- From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 23:41:33 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 21:41:33 -0700 Subject: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough to count? In-Reply-To: <20160802140659.0587618C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160802140659.0587618C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3C8DF1EF-5EDD-43D8-8AF6-A7A52A15066E@gmail.com> > That's considerably more elegant than the way I use, to get my 98SE boxes to > boot into DOS to start with (which I prefer, in case I want to do anything > that requires Windows not to be running, e.g. disk repairs); I just re-named > 'WIN.COM' to 'LOSE.COM'. So I get an error message grumbling that it can't > find WIN.COM, and then it falls into DOS. > > Of course, my way, I do get the ineffable pleasure of saying "LOSE" to start > Windows, every time I boot the machines. Never gets old. > > Noel That's too funny! This is the best method by far! Marc From kirkbdavis at me.com Tue Aug 2 23:43:03 2016 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 21:43:03 -0700 Subject: RX02 Debugging In-Reply-To: References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5929600C-B698-4310-9180-D9189C15B22C@me.com> Thanks for the suggestions. I?m in Sunnyvale, CA. I actually got the rx02 from another hobbyist that used it with the 44 in 2008 so I suspect it is configured correctly. The other drive doesn?t have a belt so I?m unable to test with it. I?ve verified the cable direction. It?s a sweet 44 - super clean, runs great and is like a tank. One of the problems is I don?t know normal behavior of the drive. The motor is aways spinning for unit 0. When I try booting I don?t hear the heads load or seek. I?m new to the 44 monitor commands & boot process etc so I?m learning as I go. I?m also making one of these to help isolate if it?s a drive/cable/controller problem: http://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/rx02/index.htm Kirk > On Aug 2, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > Hi KIrk, > > The H771 is a rock solid power supply. I never saw one go bad while in > field service, but they are getting old. Checking the output voltage and > ripple is not a bad idea. > > forgive me for asking, but where are you located? The RX02 had 4 different > power hanesses for i20, 220, 50 hz and 60 hz. Also different belts amd > pulleys. if any of this is wrong you cn see weird problems. A lot of RX02s > and replacement drives were soul through brokers who never asked or were > never told where the unit was going. if you aren'y useing 120/60 that > would be my first thought. > > Is the problem the same when booting off either drive? Also check the > switches and the resistors on the head cables. > > Good luck, Paul > Jerry Weiss wrote: > >If you haven?t already, check the cable seating, orientation and for bent pins. > On the RX211 board J1 - TT is the location of the AC LO - Active Low signal. > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Kirk Davis wrote: > >> I?m a noob using RX02?s but thought I?d run this past people that may have >> debugged them in the past and see if they agree with what I?m finding: >> >> I?m trying to get a RX02 + RX211 + 11/44 going. The RX02 appears to power >> up OK (fan and motor spinning). I verified I have the DY boot rom in the >> 44. Attempt booting from the console: >> >>>>> b dy >> >> S >> 17777707 173436 >> >> Which halts in the DY boot rom. I look at the base RX211 register: >> >>>>> e 17777170 >> 17777170 104040 >> >> From the manual this like the controller is present but the high order bit >> is set indicating an error >> >> Looking at the status register; >> >>>>> e 17777172 >> 17777172 000010 >> >> Bit 3 == RX AC LO - This bit is set by the interface to indicate a power >> failure in the RX02 sub- system. >> >> So start looking at the RX02 power supply? >> >> >> From bobvines00 at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 19:20:47 2016 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 20:20:47 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_ & _Programming_Languages_(Scanned) Covers Needed Message-ID: Does anyone have DEC's PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_, Editions 3 and/or 4 and/or the PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_ handbooks? If you're not willing to part with your copy, could you scan the front covers of these handbooks and tell me which Edition(s) they are from? I'm especially looking for the front cover that had the "format generator program" printed on it in the background. I'm also looking for DEC's PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_. If you are not willing to part with them, could you scan the front cover and tell me which Edition(s) it/they are from? Thanks, Bob From thebri at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 21:24:46 2016 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:24:46 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_ & _Programming_Languages_(Scanned) Covers Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Bob Vines wrote: > Does anyone have DEC's PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_, Editions 3 > and/or 4 and/or the PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_ handbooks? > > If you're not willing to part with your copy, could you scan the front > covers of these handbooks and tell me which Edition(s) they are from? I'm > especially looking for the front cover that had the "format generator > program" printed on it in the background. > I've got the 2nd and 3rd editions. The 2nd has 'skip to service routines' on the cover, and the 3rd has 'two's complement single precision multiply routine' on it. They're pretty beat up though, lots of faded spots and a few creases. I'm also looking for DEC's PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_. If you are not > willing to part with them, could you scan the front cover and tell me which > Edition(s) it/they are from? > I have the first edition, and it is in very good shape. I'll scan these a little later and send to you. b From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Aug 2 21:49:54 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:49:54 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/29/2016 10:55 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: >> I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis. I has a TK50, >> RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS. >> >> The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that >> might come in handy. >> >> What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS >> available? How do you get an OS onto this system? > What Qbus SCSI controllers do you have? The CMD CQD-200 CQD-220, Dilog > SQ706A, Emulex UC07 I have tried were all able to boot from an > appropriate SCSI CD-ROM drive. That how I usually go about installing > OpenVMS 7.3 on a Qbus VAX. I never got around to picking up a SCSI-SD > adapter yet. I just use old fashioned rotating drives, although they > are 68-pin drives with 50-pin adapters. > > I have a BA123 that I maxed out as a something close to a VAXstation > III/GPX. Replaced the M7606 KA630 with a M7625 KA655. There are only 4 > Q22/CD slots so normally you can only have 48MB using 3 M7622 MS650 > 16MB boards plus the CPU. I found a couple of third-party 32MB boards > to max out at 64MB. Added a (2x) M7168 + M7169 VCB02 set for the GPX > graphics. > > The BA123 is an interesting item for DEC collectors and I'm glad I was > able to pick one up, although it's been a while now since I last > powered it up. I had 3 different types of SCSI CDROM's and none of them worked, they are DEC RRD42, Toshiba and a Sony. The DEC was dead, removed the drive and applied power that I know is good (from a PC power supply in a working PC) and nothing, no led, nothing. The toshibas would spit the caddy back out after a few moments and the Sony refused to eject the caddy. Is there a SCSI CDROM to look for? I'm curious about the 68 pin scsi drives, what type do you use? The adapter, I guess it is 50 pin male to 68 pin male? Doug From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 22:14:06 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 20:14:06 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 2, 2016 7:50 PM, "Douglas Taylor" wrote: > > I had 3 different types of SCSI CDROM's and none of them worked, they are DEC RRD42, Toshiba and a Sony. > The DEC was dead, removed the drive and applied power that I know is good (from a PC power supply in a working PC) > and nothing, no led, nothing. The toshibas would spit the caddy back out after a few moments and the Sony > refused to eject the caddy. > Is there a SCSI CDROM to look for? > I'm curious about the 68 pin scsi drives, what type do you use? The adapter, I guess it is 50 pin male to 68 pin male? > Doug I have had good luck with Plextor SCSI CD-ROM drives. I picked up some old Plextor 4x, 6x, 8x caddy drives for a couple bucks each a RE-PC Seattle a while ago. They have a 512-byte block mode jumper you need to set. I got a box of 25+ IBM DDRS-39130 9GB 68-pin SCSI hard drives cheap from someone on Craigslist a while back and have been using those with 50-pin male / 68-pin male adapters. Only issue is that the Emulex UC07 firmware is incompatible with them. The drives have a mode page that the UC07 doesn't understand and it tries to do a mode select with some invalid bits for that page, which fails. Then it keeps retrying that failure forever. No problem with the CMD and Dilog controllers. I often use the SG3utils sg_format utility to soft resize the 9GB drives down to something smaller. 9GB might make sense on a VAX, not so much on a PDP-11. Also, the built in SCSI on a VAX 3100 doesn't support drives over 1GB. From classiccmp at crash.com Tue Aug 2 22:27:35 2016 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 20:27:35 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52600249-9502-7639-698f-dae9e56e5c99@crash.com> On 08/02/2016 19:49, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > I had 3 different types of SCSI CDROM's and none of them worked [...] > Is there a SCSI CDROM to look for? That's unfortunate. The DEC badged drives would be ideal, but you should be good with Sun-, HP- or SGI-badged drives, or Plextor and Toshiba drives with a SCSI interface. For the non-workstation vendors, search up the model spec sheets to see if you need to change a jumper or, in unusual cases, cut a trace on the PCB. All this info can be found on (third-party) CD-ROM FAQs for the workstation vendors... > I'm curious about the 68 pin scsi drives, what type do you use? The > adapter, I guess it is 50 pin male to 68 pin male? The 68/80 to 50 pin adapters are straightforward and all over eBay. Be advised that some drives spec'd for Ultra 320 may need a jumper or simply won't behave properly on an 8-bit SCSI bus, but its doesn't seem to be that common. If you're looking for spinning iron, I'd recommend drives using the 80 pin SCA connectors. Checking the labels is best, but as a rule of thumb they tend to be more recent production. However all of them are getting long in the tooth! For physical drives, most recently I've been getting the 2.5" Seagate Savvio drives with the SCA connectors. They tend to "only" be ~10 years old, and the smaller form factor often makes it easier to squeeze them and the coverter board into drive carriers designed for 3.5" devices. Be aware that if you don't know your equipment uses High Voltage Differential (HVD) SCSI, avoid it or things that just say "Differential." It will fry older/slower and Low Voltage Differential (LVD) SCSI gear. Sorry if any/all of that was already known, but I'm avoiding actual work this evening. ;) --S. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 2 23:18:05 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 21:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_ & _Programming_Languages_(Scanned) Covers Needed In-Reply-To: from Bob Vines at "Aug 2, 16 08:20:47 pm" Message-ID: <201608030418.u734I5Bd46007240@floodgap.com> > Does anyone have DEC's PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_, Editions 3 > and/or 4 and/or the PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_ handbooks? I have a 4th edition PDP-8 Introduction to Programming. I'm not willing to part with it and I don't currently have a scanner in easy reach, but the program on the cover is '[unreadable]'S COMPLEMENT SINGLE PRECISION MULTIPLY ROUTINE'. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 23:44:48 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 21:44:48 -0700 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: <20160801191214.686c3786@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20160801191214.686c3786@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: Lyle, I didn't know you had such a collection of 2100's and 21MX and E's and F's! I need to come and visit! Marc > On Aug 1, 2016, at 7:12 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > Hi Hayden, > > On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:29:05 -0600 > Hayden Kroepfl wrote: > > --snip-- > >> With regards to the power supply, I'm thinking my best bet would be >> to do a power on with no cards in the system. Though I'm not sure if >> all the power rails would even come up without a load on it, since it >> sounds like it may do some power sequencing from what I've read. I >> was wondering if anyone has some experience with testing a similar >> power supply that hasn't been run in at least 10 years? > > Those of us who have brought up HP2100s that have been stored (even in > military packaging) know the power supplies can be a "bear". The PS is > a "fold out" deal - and never used to be repaired in the field by FEs. > They were swapped with new units - and the failing supply sent back to > HP for refurbishing. The process was detailed to me by a person who sold > 2100's as an OEM for many years. > > That being said, they are a early design switching supply - and should > have a load when powering them on. > >> I'm not sure if using a variac to slowly warm up the supply and the >> caps would be wise on one of these power supplies. I'm not sure how >> the switching supplies would handle the low voltage at the start. > > I would definitely NOT use a variac on them. It's best to check the > caps (and reform if necessary) and then power it up with a load. You may > have to "gently" (as in slowly) turn the PS on and off a number of times > to work out the years of "dormancy" (reforming the capacitors that you > can't get to ;) > >> The only I/O card that was installed in both machines, besides a >> terminator board in only one of them, is a serial interface made by >> some company with the logo CMC. It uses a COM2502 UART which I was >> surprised to find a datasheet for, however I haven't found any >> information on the card itself. I have a photo of the card in the >> album linked below if anyone has any information on it. > > The 2100 has a weird I/O addressing scheme - so check the manual > carefully. Moving a card from one location to another in the mainframe > changes its address! That's very different from DEC (and many > others) who had switches or jumpers on boards to change addresses. > interrupts, etc. > >> I know this email is getting a bit long, but with regards to the >> memory both machines have a ID(16K) driver board, and two core >> modules. However one machine has both core modules marked 02100-60052 >> on the bridge, and the other has one marked 02100-60052 and the other >> 02100-60054. Is there any difference between these modules? I'd >> assume by the 16K driver in both, that all of the core modules are >> 8KW modules. Would that just be a later revision or is one a >> different size? > > Look on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/21xx/ > and start reading manuals (particularly the Maintenance and Drawings). > There a wealth of information to be found there - and it's what I used > to get my 2100S running. > > --snip-- > >> I'd very much appreciate any help or suggestions that peopleh ave. I >> really want to get at least one of these machines back into full >> working order to have some fun programming with. > > HP2100 restoration is very doable. > > And the 2100 has one of the best front panels going :) > Like how can you not like buttons that light up when you push them!? > > Most of my problems with my 2100S were related to the power supply - > and a few related to memory. > > Wishing you the best!!! > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > 73 AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Aug 3 00:39:12 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:39:12 -0700 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <20160801191214.686c3786@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <20160802223912.0dff5c62@asrock.bcwi.net> On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 21:44:48 -0700 Curious Marc wrote: > Lyle, > I didn't know you had such a collection of 2100's and 21MX and E's > and F's! I need to come and visit! Marc I have way too much of a lot of stuff ;) Lyle > > On Aug 1, 2016, at 7:12 PM, Lyle Bickley > > wrote: > > > > Hi Hayden, > > > > On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:29:05 -0600 > > Hayden Kroepfl wrote: > > > > --snip-- > > > >> With regards to the power supply, I'm thinking my best bet would be > >> to do a power on with no cards in the system. Though I'm not sure > >> if all the power rails would even come up without a load on it, > >> since it sounds like it may do some power sequencing from what > >> I've read. I was wondering if anyone has some experience with > >> testing a similar power supply that hasn't been run in at least 10 > >> years? > > > > Those of us who have brought up HP2100s that have been stored (even > > in military packaging) know the power supplies can be a "bear". The > > PS is a "fold out" deal - and never used to be repaired in the > > field by FEs. They were swapped with new units - and the failing > > supply sent back to HP for refurbishing. The process was detailed > > to me by a person who sold 2100's as an OEM for many years. > > > > That being said, they are a early design switching supply - and > > should have a load when powering them on. > > > >> I'm not sure if using a variac to slowly warm up the supply and the > >> caps would be wise on one of these power supplies. I'm not sure how > >> the switching supplies would handle the low voltage at the start. > > > > I would definitely NOT use a variac on them. It's best to check the > > caps (and reform if necessary) and then power it up with a load. > > You may have to "gently" (as in slowly) turn the PS on and off a > > number of times to work out the years of "dormancy" (reforming the > > capacitors that you can't get to ;) > > > >> The only I/O card that was installed in both machines, besides a > >> terminator board in only one of them, is a serial interface made by > >> some company with the logo CMC. It uses a COM2502 UART which I was > >> surprised to find a datasheet for, however I haven't found any > >> information on the card itself. I have a photo of the card in the > >> album linked below if anyone has any information on it. > > > > The 2100 has a weird I/O addressing scheme - so check the manual > > carefully. Moving a card from one location to another in the > > mainframe changes its address! That's very different from DEC (and > > many others) who had switches or jumpers on boards to change > > addresses. interrupts, etc. > > > >> I know this email is getting a bit long, but with regards to the > >> memory both machines have a ID(16K) driver board, and two core > >> modules. However one machine has both core modules marked > >> 02100-60052 on the bridge, and the other has one marked > >> 02100-60052 and the other 02100-60054. Is there any difference > >> between these modules? I'd assume by the 16K driver in both, that > >> all of the core modules are 8KW modules. Would that just be a > >> later revision or is one a different size? > > > > Look on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/21xx/ > > and start reading manuals (particularly the Maintenance and > > Drawings). There a wealth of information to be found there - and > > it's what I used to get my 2100S running. > > > > --snip-- > > > >> I'd very much appreciate any help or suggestions that peopleh ave. > >> I really want to get at least one of these machines back into full > >> working order to have some fun programming with. > > > > HP2100 restoration is very doable. > > > > And the 2100 has one of the best front panels going :) > > Like how can you not like buttons that light up when you push them!? > > > > Most of my problems with my 2100S were related to the power supply - > > and a few related to memory. > > > > Wishing you the best!!! > > > > Cheers, > > Lyle > > -- > > 73 AF6WS > > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > > http://bickleywest.com > > > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Aug 3 00:40:19 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 01:40:19 -0400 Subject: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath case drive diff?) Message-ID: <298c1.83a68dd.44d2ddc3@aol.com> we have a heath h11 which is lsi 11 aka pdp 11/03 the drives are not rx o1 or rx o2... but are they and the controller comparable? with rx01 or an rx02? Thanks Ed# at smecc From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Aug 3 00:48:55 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:48:55 -0700 Subject: RX02 Debugging In-Reply-To: <5929600C-B698-4310-9180-D9189C15B22C@me.com> References: <9ce3df95-d8c4-68fa-39ae-fbaac716d4b7@sbcglobal.net> <5929600C-B698-4310-9180-D9189C15B22C@me.com> Message-ID: <20160802224855.6d30749e@asrock.bcwi.net> On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 21:43:03 -0700 Kirk Davis wrote: > Thanks for the suggestions. I?m in Sunnyvale, CA. > > I actually got the rx02 from another hobbyist that > used it with the 44 in 2008 so I suspect it is configured correctly. > The other drive doesn?t have a belt so I?m unable to test with it. > I?ve verified the cable direction. It?s a sweet 44 - super clean, > runs great and is like a tank. > > One of the problems is I don?t know normal behavior of the drive. The > motor is aways spinning for unit 0. When I try booting I don?t hear > the heads load or seek. I?m new to the 44 monitor commands & boot > process etc so I?m learning as I go. The motors always spin. The heads should engage whenever selected. You;ll hear a serious "clunk" when they load. If you're coming to the VCF this coming weekend, Bob Rosenblum and I will have a running RX02 attached to a PDP-8/M. You can hear all of it's "sounds" there. You'll also be able to play "Spacewar!" with our VC8/E and XY monitor, etc. BTW: Make sure you have the correct switch settings on the RX02 mainboard for your PDP-11... > I?m also making one of these to help isolate if it?s a > drive/cable/controller problem: > > http://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/rx02/index.htm That looks like a cool project. Would like to see it when you've got it running!!! Lyle > > On Aug 2, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > > Hi KIrk, > > > > The H771 is a rock solid power supply. I never saw one go bad while > > in field service, but they are getting old. Checking the output > > voltage and ripple is not a bad idea. > > > > forgive me for asking, but where are you located? The RX02 had 4 > > different power hanesses for i20, 220, 50 hz and 60 hz. Also > > different belts amd pulleys. if any of this is wrong you cn see > > weird problems. A lot of RX02s and replacement drives were soul > > through brokers who never asked or were never told where the unit > > was going. if you aren'y useing 120/60 that would be my first > > thought. > > > > Is the problem the same when booting off either drive? Also check > > the switches and the resistors on the head cables. > > > > Good luck, Paul > > > Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > >If you haven?t already, check the cable seating, orientation and for > >bent pins. > > On the RX211 board J1 - TT is the location of the AC LO - Active > > Low signal. > > > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Kirk Davis > > wrote: > >> I?m a noob using RX02?s but thought I?d run this past people that > >> may have debugged them in the past and see if they agree with what > >> I?m finding: > >> > >> I?m trying to get a RX02 + RX211 + 11/44 going. The RX02 appears > >> to power up OK (fan and motor spinning). I verified I have the DY > >> boot rom in the 44. Attempt booting from the console: > >> > >>>>> b dy > >> > >> S > >> 17777707 173436 > >> > >> Which halts in the DY boot rom. I look at the base RX211 register: > >> > >>>>> e 17777170 > >> 17777170 104040 > >> > >> From the manual this like the controller is present but the high > >> order bit is set indicating an error > >> > >> Looking at the status register; > >> > >>>>> e 17777172 > >> 17777172 000010 > >> > >> Bit 3 == RX AC LO - This bit is set by the interface to indicate a > >> power failure in the RX02 sub- system. > >> > >> So start looking at the RX02 power supply? > >> > >> > >> > -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Aug 3 01:00:10 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 02:00:10 -0400 Subject: RX02 Debugging Message-ID: <29bc4.2aa7292d.44d2e26a@aol.com> yea these are nasty sounding drives when they load! ---Ed# Re: You'll hear a serious "clunk" when they load. In a message dated 8/2/2016 10:49:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, lbickley at bickleywest.com writes: On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 21:43:03 -0700 Kirk Davis wrote: > Thanks for the suggestions. I?m in Sunnyvale, CA. > > I actually got the rx02 from another hobbyist that > used it with the 44 in 2008 so I suspect it is configured correctly. > The other drive doesn?t have a belt so I?m unable to test with it. > I?ve verified the cable direction. It?s a sweet 44 - super clean, > runs great and is like a tank. > > One of the problems is I don?t know normal behavior of the drive. The > motor is aways spinning for unit 0. When I try booting I don?t hear > the heads load or seek. I?m new to the 44 monitor commands & boot > process etc so I?m learning as I go. The motors always spin. The heads should engage whenever selected. You;ll hear a serious "clunk" when they load. If you're coming to the VCF this coming weekend, Bob Rosenblum and I will have a running RX02 attached to a PDP-8/M. You can hear all of it's "sounds" there. You'll also be able to play "Spacewar!" with our VC8/E and XY monitor, etc. BTW: Make sure you have the correct switch settings on the RX02 mainboard for your PDP-11... > I?m also making one of these to help isolate if it?s a > drive/cable/controller problem: > > http://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/rx02/index.htm That looks like a cool project. Would like to see it when you've got it running!!! Lyle > > On Aug 2, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > > Hi KIrk, > > > > The H771 is a rock solid power supply. I never saw one go bad while > > in field service, but they are getting old. Checking the output > > voltage and ripple is not a bad idea. > > > > forgive me for asking, but where are you located? The RX02 had 4 > > different power hanesses for i20, 220, 50 hz and 60 hz. Also > > different belts amd pulleys. if any of this is wrong you cn see > > weird problems. A lot of RX02s and replacement drives were soul > > through brokers who never asked or were never told where the unit > > was going. if you aren'y useing 120/60 that would be my first > > thought. > > > > Is the problem the same when booting off either drive? Also check > > the switches and the resistors on the head cables. > > > > Good luck, Paul > > > Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > >If you haven?t already, check the cable seating, orientation and for > >bent pins. > > On the RX211 board J1 - TT is the location of the AC LO - Active > > Low signal. > > > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Kirk Davis > > wrote: > >> I?m a noob using RX02?s but thought I?d run this past people that > >> may have debugged them in the past and see if they agree with what > >> I?m finding: > >> > >> I?m trying to get a RX02 + RX211 + 11/44 going. The RX02 appears > >> to power up OK (fan and motor spinning). I verified I have the DY > >> boot rom in the 44. Attempt booting from the console: > >> > >>>>> b dy > >> > >> S > >> 17777707 173436 > >> > >> Which halts in the DY boot rom. I look at the base RX211 register: > >> > >>>>> e 17777170 > >> 17777170 104040 > >> > >> From the manual this like the controller is present but the high > >> order bit is set indicating an error > >> > >> Looking at the status register; > >> > >>>>> e 17777172 > >> 17777172 000010 > >> > >> Bit 3 == RX AC LO - This bit is set by the interface to indicate a > >> power failure in the RX02 sub- system. > >> > >> So start looking at the RX02 power supply? > >> > >> > >> > -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From kirkbdavis at me.com Wed Aug 3 01:03:37 2016 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 23:03:37 -0700 Subject: RX02 Debugging In-Reply-To: <29bc4.2aa7292d.44d2e26a@aol.com> References: <29bc4.2aa7292d.44d2e26a@aol.com> Message-ID: <40899702-B178-4EA1-813F-84BCB5F6BF67@me.com> Cool tnx. Lyle - I?ll be there on Sat. I?ll bring the emulator if I get all the parts by then. Looking forward to it. Kirk > On Aug 2, 2016, at 11:00 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > yea these are nasty sounding drives when they load! ---Ed# > > Re: You'll hear a serious "clunk" when they load. > > In a message dated 8/2/2016 10:49:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, lbickley at bickleywest.com writes: > On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 21:43:03 -0700 > Kirk Davis wrote: > > > Thanks for the suggestions. I?m in Sunnyvale, CA. > > > > I actually got the rx02 from another hobbyist that > > used it with the 44 in 2008 so I suspect it is configured correctly. > > The other drive doesn?t have a belt so I?m unable to test with it. > > I?ve verified the cable direction. It?s a sweet 44 - super clean, > > runs great and is like a tank. > > > > One of the problems is I don?t know normal behavior of the drive. The > > motor is aways spinning for unit 0. When I try booting I don?t hear > > the heads load or seek. I?m new to the 44 monitor commands & boot > > process etc so I?m learning as I go. > > The motors always spin. The heads should engage whenever selected. > You;ll hear a serious "clunk" when they load. > > If you're coming to the VCF this coming weekend, Bob Rosenblum and I > will have a running RX02 attached to a PDP-8/M. You can hear all of > it's "sounds" there. You'll also be able to play "Spacewar!" with our > VC8/E and XY monitor, etc. > > BTW: Make sure you have the correct switch settings on the RX02 > mainboard for your PDP-11... > > > I?m also making one of these to help isolate if it?s a > > drive/cable/controller problem: > > > > http://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/rx02/index.htm > > That looks like a cool project. Would like to see it when you've got it > running!!! > > Lyle > > > > On Aug 2, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Hi KIrk, > > > > > > The H771 is a rock solid power supply. I never saw one go bad while > > > in field service, but they are getting old. Checking the output > > > voltage and ripple is not a bad idea. > > > > > > forgive me for asking, but where are you located? The RX02 had 4 > > > different power hanesses for i20, 220, 50 hz and 60 hz. Also > > > different belts amd pulleys. if any of this is wrong you cn see > > > weird problems. A lot of RX02s and replacement drives were soul > > > through brokers who never asked or were never told where the unit > > > was going. if you aren'y useing 120/60 that would be my first > > > thought. > > > > > > Is the problem the same when booting off either drive? Also check > > > the switches and the resistors on the head cables. > > > > > > Good luck, Paul > > > > > Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > > > >If you haven?t already, check the cable seating, orientation and for > > >bent pins. > > > On the RX211 board J1 - TT is the location of the AC LO - Active > > > Low signal. > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Kirk Davis > > > wrote: > > >> I?m a noob using RX02?s but thought I?d run this past people that > > >> may have debugged them in the past and see if they agree with what > > >> I?m finding: > > >> > > >> I?m trying to get a RX02 + RX211 + 11/44 going. The RX02 appears > > >> to power up OK (fan and motor spinning). I verified I have the DY > > >> boot rom in the 44. Attempt booting from the console: > > >> > > >>>>> b dy > > >> > > >> S > > >> 17777707 173436 > > >> > > >> Which halts in the DY boot rom. I look at the base RX211 register: > > >> > > >>>>> e 17777170 > > >> 17777170 104040 > > >> > > >> From the manual this like the controller is present but the high > > >> order bit is set indicating an error > > >> > > >> Looking at the status register; > > >> > > >>>>> e 17777172 > > >> 17777172 000010 > > >> > > >> Bit 3 == RX AC LO - This bit is set by the interface to indicate a > > >> power failure in the RX02 sub- system. > > >> > > >> So start looking at the RX02 power supply? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > -- > 73 AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 3 01:08:00 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 08:08:00 +0200 Subject: Irix 5.3 drivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160803060759.GB17920@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 12:08:02AM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I realise this is a bit of a long shot, but does anyone have the driver CD > "GIO Fast Ethernet 1.0 for Irix 5.3 and 2.0 for Irix 6.2", SGI part number > 812-0576-001? Maybe deep down in a box, if no-one else can help you out I can go dig. I don't recognize the title from when I went through that box last year so don't hold your breath. /P > > This is the drivers for SGI's own Fast Ethernet card, not the Phobos/3Com > ones. > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Aug 3 04:19:27 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 05:19:27 -0400 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration Message-ID: <2c1475.d991bf3.44d3111f@aol.com> yes we used to at computer exchange inc... we had a bunch of blank I/o boards with the i/o special chips traces on the corner of board we would populate that portion then built out the rest..... rest of board was like a prototype board I scored a stack of them at a san jose computer junk show one time. we have voice synth that would plug into ho using natl. digitaker chip set built onto one of these i/o proto boards.... they were all gold plated etc.... which I still have some... we do have the first talker we built though ... if you score some of these boards most of the startup of the project is taken care of! ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 8/2/2016 2:10:16 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, perlpowers at gmail.com writes: On another note, has anyone ever tried making their own I/O boards for any of the 2100 series computers? The closest I found was http://newton.freehostia.com/hp/ where he makes a paper tape emulator and disk interface. However both of those are designed to connect to an existing I/O board like the "microcircuit interface". I haven't seen anything yet on how to interface to the I/O bus, but then again there are thousands of pages of manuals still to browse through. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Aug 3 04:22:45 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 10:22:45 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: MicroVax II In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 02 Aug 2016 20:14:06 -0700" References: Message-ID: <01Q3B3GVLM9Q0000G4@beyondthepale.ie> > > Also, the built in SCSI on a VAX 3100 doesn't support drives over 1GB. > That's not quite correct. The firmware on VAXstation 3100 and early MicroVAX 3100 machines has issues addressing directly attached SCSI disks larger than 1.073GB for booting and doing system dumps only. The issues can be worked around but this is not recommended as it is possible to end up unexpectedly writing a system dump over something else on the disk. The issue does not arise with larger drives attached to later model MicroVAX 3100 machines (or early model MicroVAX 3100 machines with updated firmware ROMs). There are no issues with larger disks attached to any VAX 3100 machines if they are not used for booting or dumping, ie they are used for storing data only. See the OpenVMS FAQ for further details if required. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From rich.cini at verizon.net Wed Aug 3 05:51:01 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 06:51:01 -0400 Subject: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath case drive diff?) In-Reply-To: <298c1.83a68dd.44d2ddc3@aol.com> References: <298c1.83a68dd.44d2ddc3@aol.com> Message-ID: Are you referring to having the H-27 drive from Heath? I don't know for sure because I've never seen H27 docs, but the disk capacity is the same as the RX01 (256k) and I think the interface was made deliberately incompatible, likely at the behest of DEC. The version of RT-11 (called HT-11) supposedly used a different floppy device driver. Again, this is based solely on what I've read from various places and not direct experience (I have an H-11 with a SCSI controller; no floppy; and it runs RT-11 no problem). Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 3, 2016, at 1:40 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > we have a heath h11 which is lsi 11 aka pdp 11/03 > > the drives are not rx o1 or rx o2... but are they and the controller > comparable? with rx01 or an rx02? > > Thanks Ed# at smecc From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Aug 3 00:20:45 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:20:45 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_ & _Programming_Languages_(Scanned) Covers Needed In-Reply-To: <201608030418.u734I5Bd46007240@floodgap.com> References: <201608030418.u734I5Bd46007240@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <37b96223-96a0-fbe2-0752-6411016e9b83@alum.mit.edu> On 8/2/2016 9:18 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Does anyone have DEC's PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_, Editions 3 >> and/or 4 and/or the PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_ handbooks? > I have a 4th edition PDP-8 Introduction to Programming. I'm not willing to > part with it and I don't currently have a scanner in easy reach, but the > program on the cover is '[unreadable]'S COMPLEMENT SINGLE PRECISION > MULTIPLY ROUTINE'. > Same for 5th Edition April 1975. Routine is: "TWO'S COMPLEMENT SINGLE PRECISION MULTIPLY ROUTINE" From denise.devries at flinders.edu.au Wed Aug 3 03:51:14 2016 From: denise.devries at flinders.edu.au (Denise de Vries) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 08:51:14 +0000 Subject: 8 inch disks - help needed identifying format Message-ID: I am trying to preserve data from a selection of 8inch disks and the only information I have is some printouts which I believe to be HP CAT reports. The first couple of lines are as follows NAME PRO TYPE REC/FILE BYTES/REC ADDRESS H8,0,1 148 ALT-A DATA 1 1188 0/1/0 Can anyone answer the following questions? Is this an HP CAT report? What does the H8,0,1 mean? Is it likely that there are 1188 bytes/rec? What does the address 0/1/0 resolve to? Any information would be most welcome Denise de Vries ________________________________ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 3 04:19:30 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:19:30 +0200 Subject: 8 inch disks - help needed identifying format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Denise, It is a HP disc, probably for the hp 9845/35 series. H tells you the drive type (9895A), 8 the controller select code, 0 the drive address, 1 the unit address (second disc in a unit, first disc will be 0). Probably the disc will contain a large fata file of 1188 blocks, may be it?s a database can?t say much more of it. To determine the data itself you need to know the first record of the file,they will tell the kind of data in it. -Rik Van: Denise de Vries From steven at malikoff.com Wed Aug 3 07:18:07 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 22:18:07 +1000 Subject: Differences between the PDP-11/15 and PDP-11/20 Message-ID: A few months back you might recall the road trip I did to recover a Foxboro FOX-2, a rebadged PDP-11 that ran the furnace oxygenation plant at the BHP steel mill at Port Kembla here in Oz during the 1970s. I had thought the machine was an 11/20 with a custom FOX front panel that (apart from the Foxboro lime green colour trim) had only 16 address switches instead of the 18 found on that machine, and that there might be two more vacant switch locations on the front panel PCB to be found lurking underneath when it came time to disassembling. But having just seen the PDP-11/15 up on eBay, I now believe that is what the FOX-2 really is. This page (http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/20) reckons the /15 is just an OEM version of the /20 but I'm wondering if there are any more differences apart from the lack of the two high address switches? (Presumably the /15 could not run one of those KT-11 paging units as was seen on that recent eBay 11/20) Steve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 3 07:57:39 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 08:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Differences between the PDP-11/15 and PDP-11/20 Message-ID: <20160803125739.74FE818C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > I'm wondering if there are any more differences apart from the lack of > the two high address switches? According to the -11/15-20 processor manual (pg. 2), the differences between the two are i) the -15 has only one hardware interrupt level, not four (the latter is optional), and ii) power-fail restart is an option, not standard. > Presumably the /15 could not run one of those KT-11 paging units I'm not sure how the KT11-B works, but my _suspicion_ (going from the pictures of that one that sold on eBay) is that it's not part of the CPU, but a UNIBUS device, which maps part of the UNIBUS which the CPU _can_ see (i.e. in the 0-56KB range) up to higher addresses, where the 'extra' memory is configured. If that supposition is correct, it would work equally well on any -11 (without built-in memory mapping in the CPU). Noel From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 3 08:44:17 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 15:44:17 +0200 Subject: Differences between the PDP-11/15 and PDP-11/20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160803134416.GD17920@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 10:18:07PM +1000, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > A few months back you might recall the road trip I did I do, and I've been meaning to ask you what became of the PDP-9 that was in the same room. Thanks, Pontus. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 3 08:44:21 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 09:44:21 -0400 Subject: Differences between the PDP-11/15 and PDP-11/20 In-Reply-To: <20160803125739.74FE818C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160803125739.74FE818C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Aug 3, 2016, at 8:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > ... > I'm not sure how the KT11-B works, but my _suspicion_ (going from the > pictures of that one that sold on eBay) is that it's not part of the CPU, but > a UNIBUS device, which maps part of the UNIBUS which the CPU _can_ see (i.e. > in the 0-56KB range) up to higher addresses, where the 'extra' memory is > configured. If that supposition is correct, it would work equally well on any > -11 (without built-in memory mapping in the CPU). That sounds plausible. It would have to be a Unibus bridge type device, i.e., it terminates the Unibus from the CPU, and at the other end originates a Unibus with mapped addresses on it. It can't just be a regular Unibus device because it has to modify the addresses that come from the CPU. That assumes the KT11-B does only memory mapping, not the other things that other MMUs do (user vs. kernel mode, I/D space, that sort of stuff). paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 09:00:36 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 07:00:36 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II In-Reply-To: References: <01Q3B3GVLM9Q0000G4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Aug 3, 2016 3:10 AM, "Peter Coghlan" wrote: > > > > > Also, the built in SCSI on a VAX 3100 doesn't support drives over 1GB. > > > > That's not quite correct. > Yeah, more details than I could be 100% accurate about off the top of my head and had the patience to type with one thumb. The only point was to mention that if some systems have issues with SCSI drives due to their capacity alone you can usually soft resize the drive smaller. No need to pay a premium for older SCSI drives of 1GB native capacity or smaller. From denise.devries at flinders.edu.au Wed Aug 3 07:19:41 2016 From: denise.devries at flinders.edu.au (Denise de Vries) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 12:19:41 +0000 Subject: 8 inch disks - help needed identifying format Message-ID: Thanks Rik I also should have asked what does 148 mean? NAME PRO TYPE REC/FILE BYTES/REC ADDRESS H8,0,1 148 ALT-A DATA 1 1188 0/1/0 Denise From dstalk at execulink.com Wed Aug 3 07:36:39 2016 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 08:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_ & _Programming_Languages_(Scanned) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20160803123639.269FE133C08@cel2.x> On Tue Aug 2 20:20:47 2016 bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) wrote: > > Does anyone have DEC's PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_, Editions 3 > and/or 4 and/or the PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_ handbooks? > > If you're not willing to part with your copy, could you scan the front > covers of these handbooks and tell me which Edition(s) they are from? I'm > especially looking for the front cover that had the "format generator > program" printed on it in the background. > > I'm also looking for DEC's PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_. If you are not > willing to part with them, could you scan the front cover and tell me which > Edition(s) it/they are from? The first edition (1970) of "Programming Lanuages" has an "example of input to the format generator program" on the cover. Don From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 3 09:12:41 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 16:12:41 +0200 Subject: 8 inch disks - help needed identifying format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 148 is the volume name/number. -Rik Van: Denise de Vries Verzonden: woensdag 3 augustus 2016 14:20 Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: 8 inch disks - help needed identifying format Thanks Rik I also should have asked what does 148 mean? NAME PRO TYPE REC/FILE BYTES/REC ADDRESS H8,0,1 148 ALT-A DATA 1 1188 0/1/0 Denise From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 3 09:17:23 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 16:17:23 +0200 Subject: 8 inch disks - help needed identifying format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84cb9ef883621b7fa4bc2fa82c91f962@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net> You can find a lot of explanation on the HP 9845 website. www.hp9845.net and the hp computer museum in Sidney www.hpmuseum.net is also a good starting point. -Rik Van: Denise de Vries From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 3 09:46:48 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Differences between the PDP-11/15 and PDP-11/20 Message-ID: <20160803144648.C1B2118C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > It would have to be a Unibus bridge type device, i.e., it terminates > the Unibus from the CPU, and at the other end originates a Unibus with > mapped addresses on it. Oh, right you are - I hadn't worked that out. (Probably because my head is still full of KT24 stuff, which doesn't have two totally separated busses. :-) > That assumes the KT11-B does only memory mapping, not the other things > that other MMUs do (user vs. kernel mode, I/D space .. ). I don't think it can; those would require hooks into the CPU, and there are no signs of such, in the pictures. Noel From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Aug 3 11:19:52 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 12:19:52 -0400 Subject: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath case drive diff?) Message-ID: <2c9446.3145a90e.44d373a7@aol.com> Rich - correct. That is the disc we have here. Just wondering in case We ever got a pdp-8 with disc interface or a standard unibus PDP 11 here at SMECC . We have an 11/20 but of course not much memory and no disc controller so it sits. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 8/3/2016 3:51:20 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, rich.cini at verizon.net writes: Are you referring to having the H-27 drive from Heath? I don't know for sure because I've never seen H27 docs, but the disk capacity is the same as the RX01 (256k) and I think the interface was made deliberately incompatible, likely at the behest of DEC. The version of RT-11 (called HT-11) supposedly used a different floppy device driver. Again, this is based solely on what I've read from various places and not direct experience (I have an H-11 with a SCSI controller; no floppy; and it runs RT-11 no problem). Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 3, 2016, at 1:40 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > we have a heath h11 which is lsi 11 aka pdp 11/03 > > the drives are not rx o1 or rx o2... but are they and the controller > comparable? with rx01 or an rx02? > > Thanks Ed# at smecc From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Aug 3 11:52:46 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 09:52:46 -0700 Subject: VCF West tickets In-Reply-To: <1405a7be532414c643a3318bd8597d80@alanlee.org> References: <7f0c771e-0d29-542e-cbed-4fa08127313c@snarc.net> <801d7d0c-5dc8-9402-14e0-49ed16f928e8@snarc.net> <000001d1eb45$20a351a0$61e9f4e0$@net> <1405a7be532414c643a3318bd8597d80@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <250A53A6-19FE-4F93-B7EF-95ED5A4D0A0F@eschatologist.net> Any word on how the admission will work for those of us who prepaid? Do we need to show our PayPal receipt, just have our ID with the same name, etc.? -- Chris > On Jul 31, 2016, at 9:41 AM, Alan Hightower wrote: > > Yes, please clarify both the CHM admission and how my Paypal receipt > email will translate into admission in various places. > > On 2016-07-31 12:03, Ali wrote: > >> Hold on a second I thought CHM admission was included in the price of the ticket. Also, is it saying that you have to be a CHM member and buy CHM tickets to get half off (i.e. just buying on the day of admission is not enough) otherwise I agree with Bill those of us who bought our tickets early you are being screwed. >> >> -Ali > From applecorey at optonline.net Wed Aug 3 13:05:36 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:05:36 -0700 Subject: VCF West tickets In-Reply-To: <250A53A6-19FE-4F93-B7EF-95ED5A4D0A0F@eschatologist.net> References: <7f0c771e-0d29-542e-cbed-4fa08127313c@snarc.net> <801d7d0c-5dc8-9402-14e0-49ed16f928e8@snarc.net> <000001d1eb45$20a351a0$61e9f4e0$@net> <1405a7be532414c643a3318bd8597d80@alanlee.org> <250A53A6-19FE-4F93-B7EF-95ED5A4D0A0F@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: ID with name is ok. We have a list of names and PayPal email addresses with what you purchased. corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Aug 3, 2016, at 9:52 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: > > Any word on how the admission will work for those of us who prepaid? > > Do we need to show our PayPal receipt, just have our ID with the same name, etc.? > > -- Chris > >> On Jul 31, 2016, at 9:41 AM, Alan Hightower wrote: >> >> Yes, please clarify both the CHM admission and how my Paypal receipt >> email will translate into admission in various places. >> >>> On 2016-07-31 12:03, Ali wrote: >>> >>> Hold on a second I thought CHM admission was included in the price of the ticket. Also, is it saying that you have to be a CHM member and buy CHM tickets to get half off (i.e. just buying on the day of admission is not enough) otherwise I agree with Bill those of us who bought our tickets early you are being screwed. >>> >>> -Ali > From applecorey at optonline.net Wed Aug 3 13:05:36 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:05:36 -0700 Subject: VCF West tickets In-Reply-To: <250A53A6-19FE-4F93-B7EF-95ED5A4D0A0F@eschatologist.net> References: <7f0c771e-0d29-542e-cbed-4fa08127313c@snarc.net> <801d7d0c-5dc8-9402-14e0-49ed16f928e8@snarc.net> <000001d1eb45$20a351a0$61e9f4e0$@net> <1405a7be532414c643a3318bd8597d80@alanlee.org> <250A53A6-19FE-4F93-B7EF-95ED5A4D0A0F@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: ID with name is ok. We have a list of names and PayPal email addresses with what you purchased. corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Aug 3, 2016, at 9:52 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: > > Any word on how the admission will work for those of us who prepaid? > > Do we need to show our PayPal receipt, just have our ID with the same name, etc.? > > -- Chris > >> On Jul 31, 2016, at 9:41 AM, Alan Hightower wrote: >> >> Yes, please clarify both the CHM admission and how my Paypal receipt >> email will translate into admission in various places. >> >>> On 2016-07-31 12:03, Ali wrote: >>> >>> Hold on a second I thought CHM admission was included in the price of the ticket. Also, is it saying that you have to be a CHM member and buy CHM tickets to get half off (i.e. just buying on the day of admission is not enough) otherwise I agree with Bill those of us who bought our tickets early you are being screwed. >>> >>> -Ali > From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 12:26:53 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:26:53 -0600 Subject: 8 inch disks - help needed identifying format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:19 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > It is a HP disc, probably for the hp 9845/35 series. > H tells you the drive type (9895A), 8 the controller select code, 0 the drive address, 1 the unit address (second disc in a unit, first disc will be 0). > Probably the disc will contain a large fata file of 1188 blocks, may be it?s a database can?t say much more of it. To determine the data itself you need to know the first record of the file,they will tell the kind of data in it. If it's a 9895A disk, and if it is double density, then the 9895A is the only drive that can read the disk in the normal way, because HP used their own unique M2FM format for that. Of course, a flux-transition reader like Catweasel or DiscFerret can be used to archive it, though AFAIK there's not yet any software that understands 9895A format. The 9895A documentation doesn't give enough detail on the format, so some reverse-engineering of the format details would be needed to write suitable decoding software. I'm currently working on a Python program to decode Intel M2FM format (used for double density 8-inch with SBC-202 controller on MDS 800, Series II, Series III) from flux transition data. The Intel M2FM format is reasonably well documented. From anders at abc80.net Wed Aug 3 12:36:25 2016 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 19:36:25 +0200 Subject: PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_ & _Programming_Languages_(Scanned) Covers Needed Message-ID: >Does anyone have DEC's PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_, Editions 3 >and/or 4 and/or the PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_ handbooks? > >If you're not willing to part with your copy, could you scan the front >covers of these handbooks and tell me which Edition(s) they are from? >I'm >especially looking for the front cover that had the "format generator >program" printed on it in the background. > >I'm also looking for DEC's PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_. If you are not >willing to part with them, could you scan the front cover and tell me >which >Edition(s) it/they are from? I have the second, fourth and fifth edition of "introduction to programming". The fourth and fifth edition looks the same. I'll send a scanned cover of fourth edition to Bob. I'm not willing to part with any of them. /Anders From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Aug 3 17:21:14 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 23:21:14 +0100 Subject: Irix 5.3 drivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c2dead2-3489-072f-838a-efeb4c4b7732@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/08/2016 00:08, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I realise this is a bit of a long shot, but does anyone have the driver > CD "GIO Fast Ethernet 1.0 for Irix 5.3 and 2.0 for Irix 6.2", SGI part > number 812-0576-001? Thanks to those who replied - I now have the files I wanted. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 3 17:38:48 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 17:38:48 -0500 Subject: HP 2100A Restoration In-Reply-To: <20160802223912.0dff5c62@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20160801191214.686c3786@asrock.bcwi.net> <20160802223912.0dff5c62@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <000401d1edd7$cd259980$6770cc80$@classiccmp.org> Marc; There's probably a HP 2100/21MX singularity being formed in my basement. I think it's the 7906's that push it over critical mass lol Hayden - Here is a link to the 21MX M/E/F I/O interfacing guide. It is not the earlier 2100-specific one that I was thinking about the other day, but it should be perfectly usable/applicable to the 2100. I'm sure I have both dead tree versions but the one below will work for you. www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/02109-90006_HP_1000_M_E_F_Series_Computers_IO_ Interfacing_Guide_Sep80.pdf Best, J From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 21:11:19 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 19:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF West tickets In-Reply-To: <7f0c771e-0d29-542e-cbed-4fa08127313c@snarc.net> References: <7f0c771e-0d29-542e-cbed-4fa08127313c@snarc.net> Message-ID: Is there parking there? Is it free? From isking at uw.edu Wed Aug 3 23:53:17 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 21:53:17 -0700 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > I would call Win 95 a high point also. I lived near Toronto at the time > and remember the unfurling of a huge Win 95 banner down one side. There > were events everywhere. MS was really at their zenith. The excitement > around that launch was like nothing since. I believe I got swept up and > installed it immediately but shortly after removed it. Couldn't get used > to the interface. Eventually for one reason or another I had to and did go > back to it. Wasn't the greatest or most stable OS and was kind of a half > breed at that, but man.. what I wouldn't give to feel the anticipation > again, the difference between it and DOS. Nothing released on either PC or > Mac has come close. > Brad > > I have a can of Sapporo beer with the Win 95 logo - not a sticker, part of the 'paint job' of the can! It's still full, too - I've never been a big a fan of Sapporo, it's obviously cooler as a 'complete' artifact, and by now that stuff in there must be incredibly funky.... -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Aug 4 00:58:44 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2016 22:58:44 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: Thought I would post this here in case it reaches eyes my forum posts don't. ?So I finally got my hands on a SWTPC 6800! ? This machine is chock full of boards.. 4 ram boards, the cpu card (with SWTBUG ROM), MP-S, MP-C serial cards, a floppy controller, some little custom board, a sound card.. etc. This presents some challenges obviously, since the machine has been altered from stock it could be tricky getting it running. Before I had it stripped down, I tried powering up as is (i pulled the older MP-C card and put MP-S in slot 1). ?This produced little except for a string of random characters that would repeat every time I hit reset, exactly the same number. I tried stripping it down to CPU card, MP-S, and the RAM board designated as '0'.. but all I get at the terminal end is a single random character on power up. ? I then thought I'd try my luck putting the CPU card in my working MSI system (taking out its card). ?Nope. ? Now, because my CPU card has been modified to accomodate SWTBUG and possibly something else, I'm not sure if it'll even work in a stripped down config. ?Not sure about the interplay between boards. Anyway.. if anyone has any thoughts to point me in the right direction I'd be most appreciative. ?Ultimately I'd like to get this beast working with my CT1024 terminals. Brad Sent from my Samsung device From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Aug 4 01:54:27 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 23:54:27 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/3/2016 10:58 PM, Brad H wrote: > > Thought I would post this here in case it reaches eyes my forum posts don't. So I finally got my hands on a SWTPC 6800! > This machine is chock full of boards.. 4 ram boards, the cpu card (with SWTBUG ROM), MP-S, MP-C serial cards, a floppy controller, some little custom board, a sound card.. etc. > This presents some challenges obviously, since the machine has been altered from stock it could be tricky getting it running. > Before I had it stripped down, I tried powering up as is (i pulled the older MP-C card and put MP-S in slot 1). This produced little except for a string of random characters that would repeat every time I hit reset, exactly the same number. > I tried stripping it down to CPU card, MP-S, and the RAM board designated as '0'.. but all I get at the terminal end is a single random character on power up. > I then thought I'd try my luck putting the CPU card in my working MSI system (taking out its card). Nope. > Now, because my CPU card has been modified to accomodate SWTBUG and possibly something else, I'm not sure if it'll even work in a stripped down config. Not sure about the interplay between boards. > Anyway.. if anyone has any thoughts to point me in the right direction I'd be most appreciative. Ultimately I'd like to get this beast working with my CT1024 terminals. > Brad > I saw an SWTPC booth registered at VCF West, maybe you should drop by. I'll look in and see what they have and maybe they can help too. Only SWTPC gizmo I have is one of their audio amplifiers somewhere in the pile. Picked up at TRW Swap Meet. Thanks jim From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 02:00:36 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 08:00:36 +0100 Subject: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath case drive diff?) In-Reply-To: References: <298c1.83a68dd.44d2ddc3@aol.com> Message-ID: <03f701d1ee1d$e8270a70$b8751f50$@gmail.com> There was some discussion on this on the VCFED forums. Might be worth a read. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Cini > Sent: 03 August 2016 11:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath case drive > diff?) > > Are you referring to having the H-27 drive from Heath? I don't know for sure > because I've never seen H27 docs, but the disk capacity is the same as the > RX01 (256k) and I think the interface was made deliberately incompatible, > likely at the behest of DEC. The version of RT-11 (called HT-11) supposedly > used a different floppy device driver. > > Again, this is based solely on what I've read from various places and not > direct experience (I have an H-11 with a SCSI controller; no floppy; and it runs > RT-11 no problem). > > Rich > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 3, 2016, at 1:40 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > > > we have a heath h11 which is lsi 11 aka pdp 11/03 > > > > the drives are not rx o1 or rx o2... but are they and the > > controller comparable? with rx01 or an rx02? > > > > Thanks Ed# at smecc From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Aug 4 02:26:37 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 03:26:37 -0400 Subject: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath case drive diff?) Message-ID: <2221fa.7356e1f4.44d4482d@aol.com> link to area? or topic? Please? In a message dated 8/4/2016 12:00:45 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com writes: There was some discussion on this on the VCFED forums. Might be worth a read. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Cini > Sent: 03 August 2016 11:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath case drive > diff?) > > Are you referring to having the H-27 drive from Heath? I don't know for sure > because I've never seen H27 docs, but the disk capacity is the same as the > RX01 (256k) and I think the interface was made deliberately incompatible, > likely at the behest of DEC. The version of RT-11 (called HT-11) supposedly > used a different floppy device driver. > > Again, this is based solely on what I've read from various places and not > direct experience (I have an H-11 with a SCSI controller; no floppy; and it runs > RT-11 no problem). > > Rich > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 3, 2016, at 1:40 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > > > we have a heath h11 which is lsi 11 aka pdp 11/03 > > > > the drives are not rx o1 or rx o2... but are they and the > > controller comparable? with rx01 or an rx02? > > > > Thanks Ed# at smecc From jon at jonworld.com Thu Aug 4 06:16:48 2016 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 13:16:48 +0200 Subject: Random stuff in Belgium Message-ID: All, I was surfing our local website which is essentially "Belgian Craigslist" and found some vintage ads. I'm curious about this and too lazy to google on my own. It looks like these are Sony PCs with robot arms which can be controlled? http://www.2ememain.be/informatique-jeux-vid%C3%A9o/bureautique/286-et-plus-anciens/msx-computers-onderdelen-299603209.html He's about 50-60km from me if someone wants/needs me to snag anything. If there is other stuff around here you're interested in, please let me know. -- -Jon +32 0 486 260 686 From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 06:39:23 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 08:39:23 -0300 Subject: Random stuff in Belgium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These are MSX computers, with VERY VERY VERY RARE options. I'd give one of my eyes for that cassete recorder and one of the robot arms :D 2016-08-04 8:16 GMT-03:00 Jonathan Katz : > All, > > I was surfing our local website which is essentially "Belgian Craigslist" > and found some vintage ads. I'm curious about this and too lazy to google > on my own. It looks like these are Sony PCs with robot arms which can be > controlled? > > > http://www.2ememain.be/informatique-jeux-vid%C3%A9o/bureautique/286-et-plus-anciens/msx-computers-onderdelen-299603209.html > > He's about 50-60km from me if someone wants/needs me to snag anything. If > there is other stuff around here you're interested in, please let me know. > > -- > -Jon > +32 0 486 260 686 > From applecorey at optonline.net Thu Aug 4 07:15:58 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 05:15:58 -0700 Subject: VCF West tickets In-Reply-To: References: <7f0c771e-0d29-542e-cbed-4fa08127313c@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5730FF45-7667-4EE8-AE23-53A0D83533B1@optonline.net> According to their website, there is about 400 parking spaces at/next to CHM plus some 200 near site parking. As far as I'm aware it's always free even when they have valet because parking has filled up the onsite parking. Maybe someone who has been there for a weekend event can comment more on their experience. corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Aug 3, 2016, at 7:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Is there parking there? > > Is it free? > > From applecorey at optonline.net Thu Aug 4 07:15:58 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 05:15:58 -0700 Subject: VCF West tickets In-Reply-To: References: <7f0c771e-0d29-542e-cbed-4fa08127313c@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5730FF45-7667-4EE8-AE23-53A0D83533B1@optonline.net> According to their website, there is about 400 parking spaces at/next to CHM plus some 200 near site parking. As far as I'm aware it's always free even when they have valet because parking has filled up the onsite parking. Maybe someone who has been there for a weekend event can comment more on their experience. corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Aug 3, 2016, at 7:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Is there parking there? > > Is it free? > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 07:19:25 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 08:19:25 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 4, 2016 2:54 AM, "jim stephens" wrote: > > > > On 8/3/2016 10:58 PM, Brad H wrote: >> >> Thought I would post this here in case it reaches eyes my forum posts don't. So I finally got my hands on a SWTPC 6800! >> This machine is chock full of boards.. 4 ram boards, the cpu card (with SWTBUG ROM), MP-S, MP-C serial cards, a floppy controller, some little custom board, a sound card.. etc. >> This presents some challenges obviously, since the machine has been altered from stock it could be tricky getting it running. >> Before I had it stripped down, I tried powering up as is (i pulled the older MP-C card and put MP-S in slot 1). This produced little except for a string of random characters that would repeat every time I hit reset, exactly the same number. >> I tried stripping it down to CPU card, MP-S, and the RAM board designated as '0'.. but all I get at the terminal end is a single random character on power up. >> I then thought I'd try my luck putting the CPU card in my working MSI system (taking out its card). Nope. >> Now, because my CPU card has been modified to accomodate SWTBUG and possibly something else, I'm not sure if it'll even work in a stripped down config. Not sure about the interplay between boards. >> Anyway.. if anyone has any thoughts to point me in the right direction I'd be most appreciative. Ultimately I'd like to get this beast working with my CT1024 terminals. >> Brad >> > I saw an SWTPC booth registered at VCF West, maybe you should drop by. I'll look in and see what they have and maybe they can help too. > > Only SWTPC gizmo I have is one of their audio amplifiers somewhere in the pile. Picked up at TRW Swap Meet. > Thanks > jim You need to start with the power supply. Verify it's ok. Then work through each card's jumpers to see how they are set. For example the MP-S has baud rate setting options, and the card can be used with a Teletype or RS232 terminal. 1200 is max baud. If you're getting a consistent but garbled output to the screen did you confirm the baud rate you're using matches the MP-S jumpers? All of this is well documented online, Mike Holley has a step by step set up on his site. A few years ago I retyped the entire code listing of TSC BASIC which can be downloaded into bare bones SWTPC 6800 From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Aug 4 09:33:49 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 07:33:49 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: Thanks Jim! Wish I could go but I'm up in BC and haven't renewed my passport in a couple of years. ?One of these days for sure though. Brad Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: jim stephens Date: 2016-08-03 11:54 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 On 8/3/2016 10:58 PM, Brad H wrote: >????? > Thought I would post this here in case it reaches eyes my forum posts don't.? So I finally got my hands on a SWTPC 6800! > This machine is chock full of boards.. 4 ram boards, the cpu card (with SWTBUG ROM), MP-S, MP-C serial cards, a floppy controller, some little custom board, a sound card.. etc. > This presents some challenges obviously, since the machine has been altered from stock it could be tricky getting it running. > Before I had it stripped down, I tried powering up as is (i pulled the older MP-C card and put MP-S in slot 1).? This produced little except for a string of random characters that would repeat every time I hit reset, exactly the same number. > I tried stripping it down to CPU card, MP-S, and the RAM board designated as '0'.. but all I get at the terminal end is a single random character on power up. > I then thought I'd try my luck putting the CPU card in my working MSI system (taking out its card).? Nope. > Now, because my CPU card has been modified to accomodate SWTBUG and possibly something else, I'm not sure if it'll even work in a stripped down config.? Not sure about the interplay between boards. > Anyway.. if anyone has any thoughts to point me in the right direction I'd be most appreciative.? Ultimately I'd like to get this beast working with my CT1024 terminals. > Brad > I saw an SWTPC booth registered at VCF West, maybe you should drop by.? I'll look in and see what they have and maybe they can help too. Only SWTPC gizmo I have is one of their audio amplifiers somewhere in the pile.? Picked up at TRW Swap Meet. Thanks jim From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 09:35:08 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:35:08 +0100 Subject: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath case drive diff?) In-Reply-To: <2221fa.7356e1f4.44d4482d@aol.com> References: <2221fa.7356e1f4.44d4482d@aol.com> Message-ID: <063e01d1ee5d$671873c0$35495b40$@gmail.com> In the DEC area. Sorry in Spain at present and can't get to the Forums. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > COURYHOUSE at aol.com > Sent: 04 August 2016 08:27 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath case drive > diff?) > > link to area? or topic? Please? > > > In a message dated 8/4/2016 12:00:45 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > dave.g4ugm at gmail.com writes: > > There was some discussion on this on the VCFED forums. Might be worth a > read. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > Richard Cini > > Sent: 03 August 2016 11:51 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath > case > drive > > diff?) > > > > Are you referring to having the H-27 drive from Heath? I don't know > > for > sure > > because I've never seen H27 docs, but the disk capacity is the same > > as > the > > RX01 (256k) and I think the interface was made deliberately > > incompatible, likely at the behest of DEC. The version of RT-11 > > (called HT-11) > supposedly > > used a different floppy device driver. > > > > Again, this is based solely on what I've read from various places and > > not direct experience (I have an H-11 with a SCSI controller; no > > floppy; and > it runs > > RT-11 no problem). > > > > Rich > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Aug 3, 2016, at 1:40 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > we have a heath h11 which is lsi 11 aka pdp 11/03 > > > > > > the drives are not rx o1 or rx o2... but are they and the > > > controller comparable? with rx01 or an rx02? > > > > > > Thanks Ed# at smecc > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Aug 4 09:38:19 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 07:38:19 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: <9r4m21i1dh7dliyfktglv04j.1470321499707@email.android.com> Yes thankfully the previous owner labelled everything. ?The cards seem to be in great physical shape, however the motherboard does have a bit of corrosion here and there. PSU checked out ok in preliminary testing. The CPU card appears to be set up for Flex.. the expected jumper is cut and it looks like the 6810 onboard is bypassed. If I read Michael Holley's guide right that just means I need my first RAM board configured as '0'.. but that was the case already.. not sure why that would ever not be the case. Baud rate seems to be set correctly.. at least by the hand written label next to the dip switches on both cards. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: william degnan Date: 2016-08-04 5:19 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 On Aug 4, 2016 2:54 AM, "jim stephens" wrote: > > > > On 8/3/2016 10:58 PM, Brad H wrote: >> >>????? Thought I would post this here in case it reaches eyes my forum posts don't.? So I finally got my hands on a SWTPC 6800! >> This machine is chock full of boards.. 4 ram boards, the cpu card (with SWTBUG ROM), MP-S, MP-C serial cards, a floppy controller, some little custom board, a sound card.. etc. >> This presents some challenges obviously, since the machine has been altered from stock it could be tricky getting it running. >> Before I had it stripped down, I tried powering up as is (i pulled the older MP-C card and put MP-S in slot 1).? This produced little except for a string of random characters that would repeat every time I hit reset, exactly the same number. >> I tried stripping it down to CPU card, MP-S, and the RAM board designated as '0'.. but all I get at the terminal end is a single random character on power up. >> I then thought I'd try my luck putting the CPU card in my working MSI system (taking out its card).? Nope. >> Now, because my CPU card has been modified to accomodate SWTBUG and possibly something else, I'm not sure if it'll even work in a stripped down config.? Not sure about the interplay between boards. >> Anyway.. if anyone has any thoughts to point me in the right direction I'd be most appreciative.? Ultimately I'd like to get this beast working with my CT1024 terminals. >> Brad >> > I saw an SWTPC booth registered at VCF West, maybe you should drop by. I'll look in and see what they have and maybe they can help too. > > Only SWTPC gizmo I have is one of their audio amplifiers somewhere in the pile.? Picked up at TRW Swap Meet. > Thanks > jim You need to start with the power supply.?? Verify it's ok. Then work through each card's jumpers to see how they are set.? For example the MP-S has baud rate setting options, and the card can be used with a Teletype or RS232 terminal.? 1200 is max baud. If you're getting a consistent but garbled output to the screen did you confirm the baud rate you're using matches the MP-S jumpers? All of this is well documented online, Mike Holley has a step by step set up on his site.? A few years ago I retyped the entire code listing of TSC BASIC which can be downloaded into? bare bones SWTPC 6800 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Aug 4 10:10:41 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:10:41 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-08-04 8:19 AM, william degnan wrote: > ... > All of this is well documented online, Mike Holley has a step by step set > up on his site. A few years ago I retyped the entire code listing of TSC > BASIC which can be downloaded into bare bones SWTPC 6800 > Same one as this? http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/TSC_MicroBasic/TSC_MicroBasic.htm --Toby From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Aug 4 11:19:35 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 09:19:35 -0700 Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?RE:_RX02_rx-01_heathkit_8_inch_drive_f?= =?US-ASCII?Q?or_H-11_(_lsi11_heath_case=0D__drive_diff=3F)?= Message-ID: OK will check when back at real computer? Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Dave Wade Date: 8/4/16 07:35 (GMT-07:00) To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: RE: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath case drive diff?) In the DEC area. Sorry in Spain at present and can't get to the Forums. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > COURYHOUSE at aol.com > Sent: 04 August 2016 08:27 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath case drive > diff?) > > link? to??? area? or topic? Please? > > > In a message dated 8/4/2016 12:00:45 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > dave.g4ugm at gmail.com writes: > > There? was some discussion on this on the VCFED forums. Might be worth? a > read. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From:? cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > Richard? Cini > > Sent: 03 August 2016 11:51 > > To: General Discussion:? On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > >? Subject: Re: RX02 rx-01 heathkit 8 inch drive for H-11 ( lsi11 heath > case > drive > > diff?) > > > > Are you referring to having the? H-27 drive from Heath? I don't know > > for > sure > > because I've never? seen H27 docs, but the disk capacity is the same > > as > the > > RX01 (256k)? and I think the interface was made deliberately > > incompatible, likely? at the behest of DEC. The version of RT-11 > > (called? HT-11) > supposedly > > used a different floppy device driver. > > > > Again, this is based solely on what I've read from various places and > > not direct experience (I have an H-11 with a SCSI controller; no > > floppy; and > it runs > > RT-11 no problem). > > > >? Rich > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Aug 3,? 2016, at 1:40 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > we have? a heath? h11? which is lsi 11?? aka pdp?? 11/03 > > > > > > the? drives? are not? rx o1? or? rx o2... but are they? and the > > > controller? comparable? with rx01? or? an rx02? > > > > > >? Thanks? Ed# at??? smecc > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Aug 4 11:25:26 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 09:25:26 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 6800 'Developer Computer' Message-ID: <011701d1ee6c$d04c1220$70e43660$@bettercomputing.net> Hey guys, In addition to that 6800 SWTPC I got, I also picked up this 'board bucket' from ebay: http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/library/Tektronix%206800%20Dev eloper%20Computer?sort=3 &page=1 It's a 6800 system of sorts and has BASIC and 'DDE' ROMs. I've tried hooking it up to a terminal but no response. I think the system isn't fully running. This is a video I took: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YSUuF6xTAg Hard to see with the camera, but when you hit and hold reset the little display looks sort of normal. When you release, it's like some of the segments are half-on rather than fully on or off. I tried pulling RAM boards and such but no action yet. Step button on the CPU card doesn't do anything. If anyone has seen one of these or has any ideas on getting her working, I'd be most interested. I sent an email to Tektronix to inquire about it as there are part numbers and stuff on the boards. Hopefully they can answer questions. Brad From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 07:56:17 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 08:56:17 -0400 Subject: VCF West - going? Message-ID: I am heading to VCF West after a stop over in San Fran today...I am looking forward to meeting up with everyone. I will be there all day Friday as a set-up volunteer, Sat and Sunday morning. I was at the last VCF before it was called "West" ... it's been too long. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 09:31:00 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:31:00 +0100 Subject: FW: [IBM1130] 029 keypunch available In-Reply-To: References: <03f201d1ee1d$b2955b50$17c011f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <05a001d1ee5c$d3200cf0$796026d0$@gmail.com> Clare Owens From: ibm1130 at googlegroups.com [mailto:ibm1130 at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Clare Owens Sent: 04 August 2016 13:30 To: ibm1130 at googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [IBM1130] 029 keypunch available Sure, the more the merrier. Thanks, Clare On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 2:59 AM, Dave Wade > wrote: Clare, Do you mind if I forward this to some other lists. I am sure there will be lots of interest. Dave From: ibm1130 at googlegroups.com [mailto:ibm1130 at googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Clare Owens Sent: 03 August 2016 20:55 To: ibm1130 at googlegroups.com Subject: [IBM1130] 029 keypunch available My son Bill just reminded me that I should write and ask whether anyone would be interested in an 029 keypunch, pickup only in Syracuse, NY. It is complete but the cables were disconnected in order to move it in pieces several years ago. There are many spare parts (from another 029 taken apart years ago) and it has the complete CE documentation. Free to someone who will give it a good home and take care of it. Clare Owens Apex, NC -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "IBM1130" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ibm1130+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. From bobvines00 at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 10:58:45 2016 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:58:45 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_ & _Programming_Languages_(Scanned) Covers Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anders, Thank you for te scan of the front cover of the 4th Edition. Brian Walenz also sent me a scan of the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd Editions. I now know that only the 2nd Edition front cover has a different "code example" printed on it. The 3rd, 4th, & 5th Editions all have the same "code example." The 1st Edition has no "code example" on its front cover. Thanks, Bob On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Anders Sandahl wrote: > >Does anyone have DEC's PDP-8 _Introduction_to_Programming_, Editions 3 > >and/or 4 and/or the PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_ handbooks? > > > >If you're not willing to part with your copy, could you scan the front > >covers of these handbooks and tell me which Edition(s) they are from? > >I'm > >especially looking for the front cover that had the "format generator > >program" printed on it in the background. > > > >I'm also looking for DEC's PDP-8 _Programming_Languages_. If you are not > >willing to part with them, could you scan the front cover and tell me > >which > >Edition(s) it/they are from? > > I have the second, fourth and fifth edition of "introduction to > programming". The fourth and fifth edition looks the same. I'll send a > scanned cover of fourth edition to Bob. > > I'm not willing to part with any of them. > > /Anders From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Aug 4 11:57:10 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 09:57:10 -0700 Subject: [IBM1130] 029 keypunch available In-Reply-To: <05a001d1ee5c$d3200cf0$796026d0$@gmail.com> References: <03f201d1ee1d$b2955b50$17c011f0$@gmail.com> <05a001d1ee5c$d3200cf0$796026d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3C2B7BCA-B923-4A54-8579-BB403D3DC7A0@nf6x.net> Always on the opposite edge of the continent! :/ -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Aug 4 12:16:42 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 10:16:42 -0700 Subject: [IBM1130] 029 keypunch available In-Reply-To: <3C2B7BCA-B923-4A54-8579-BB403D3DC7A0@nf6x.net> References: <03f201d1ee1d$b2955b50$17c011f0$@gmail.com> <05a001d1ee5c$d3200cf0$796026d0$@gmail.com> <3C2B7BCA-B923-4A54-8579-BB403D3DC7A0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <013701d1ee73$f9469fe0$ebd3dfa0$@bettercomputing.net> Ditto. I'd be all over that if I wasn't in BC. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Blair Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 9:57 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: [IBM1130] 029 keypunch available Always on the opposite edge of the continent! :/ -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 12:34:13 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 13:34:13 -0400 Subject: Keyboards etc. References: Message-ID: ... Same here; I long for the good old days when they just asked where you were born... So, looks like you've pretty well finished your TV typewriters, so can I assume that you don't want/need any of the MDS etc. keyboard stuff we talked about long ago? Also, since you're into SWTPC stuff, would you be interested in an AC-30 to go between your CT-1024 and 6800 (assuming I can find it)? http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/AC30/AC30_Index.htm mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad H" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 10:33 AM Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > > Thanks Jim! > Wish I could go but I'm up in BC and haven't renewed my passport in a couple of years. One of these days for sure though. > Brad > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: jim stephens > Date: 2016-08-03 11:54 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > > > On 8/3/2016 10:58 PM, Brad H wrote: >> >> Thought I would post this here in case it reaches eyes my forum posts don't. So I finally got my hands on a SWTPC 6800! >> This machine is chock full of boards.. 4 ram boards, the cpu card (with SWTBUG ROM), MP-S, MP-C serial cards, a floppy controller, some little custom board, a sound card.. etc. >> This presents some challenges obviously, since the machine has been altered from stock it could be tricky getting it running. >> Before I had it stripped down, I tried powering up as is (i pulled the older MP-C card and put MP-S in slot 1). This produced little except for a string of random characters that would repeat every time I hit reset, exactly the same number. >> I tried stripping it down to CPU card, MP-S, and the RAM board designated as '0'.. but all I get at the terminal end is a single random character on power up. >> I then thought I'd try my luck putting the CPU card in my working MSI system (taking out its card). Nope. >> Now, because my CPU card has been modified to accomodate SWTBUG and possibly something else, I'm not sure if it'll even work in a stripped down config. Not sure about the interplay between boards. >> Anyway.. if anyone has any thoughts to point me in the right direction I'd be most appreciative. Ultimately I'd like to get this beast working with my CT1024 terminals. >> Brad >> > I saw an SWTPC booth registered at VCF West, maybe you should drop by. > I'll look in and see what they have and maybe they can help too. > > Only SWTPC gizmo I have is one of their audio amplifiers somewhere in > the pile. Picked up at TRW Swap Meet. > Thanks > jim > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 12:48:17 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 19:48:17 +0200 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: Van: Henk Gooijen Verzonden: donderdag 4 augustus 2016 19:44 Aan: Toby Thain Onderwerp: RE: SWTPC 6800 Van: Toby Thain From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Aug 4 12:50:07 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 19:50:07 +0200 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: Sorry list, now trying top post ? somehow my typed tekst goes into a bit bucket. Back in the seventies (well, 1979-1980) I had a 6800-based modular system in a 19" rack, 3HE high. One Euro-card was the 6800 CPU, another Euro-card was 8k RAM ("famous" 2112?s IIRC), one Euro-card with 8 sockets for 2716 EPROMs. Plus a self-made cassette interface. I still remember buying two 2716 EPROMs for 313 Guilders! That was a lot of money for a poor student! Two years later I bought a generic floppy disk interface and 5.25? TEAC FD50 floppy drive (SS/SD) and wrote my own ?DOS?. Took 8 months, but I no longer needed the cassette interface. A small bookshop in Amsterdam (Computer Collectief) sold great books (at that time) for the real hobbyist. That way I got the TSC Editor, TSC Assembler, TSC Linker and TSC Debugger. And it all came with source listings, so I could hack away my own interface routines :-) With the TSC software I developed my first StarShip assembler code. It was some 10 to 14 files which you assembled to "relocatables". Subsequently you used the linker to create the "absolute" from the relocatables. Worked really well. Those were the days! I still have the 6800 system, Build-It-Yourself keyboard and monitor. I wonder whether the EPROMs would still have all bits OK, after 35 years. Fond memories, - Henk PS. I have a 6800 source listing of StarTrek, not sure that came from TSC! Van: Toby Thain Verzonden: donderdag 4 augustus 2016 17:11 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: SWTPC 6800 On 2016-08-04 8:19 AM, william degnan wrote: > ... > All of this is well documented online, Mike Holley has a step by step set > up on his site. A few years ago I retyped the entire code listing of TSC > BASIC which can be downloaded into bare bones SWTPC 6800 > Same one as this? http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/TSC_MicroBasic/TSC_MicroBasic.htm --Toby From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 13:45:19 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:45:19 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 4, 2016 11:11 AM, "Toby Thain" wrote: > > On 2016-08-04 8:19 AM, william degnan wrote: >> >> ... >> >> All of this is well documented online, Mike Holley has a step by step set >> up on his site. A few years ago I retyped the entire code listing of TSC >> BASIC which can be downloaded into bare bones SWTPC 6800 >> > > Same one as this? > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/TSC_MicroBasic/TSC_MicroBasic.htm > > --Toby > Yes. I typed it in using my teletype and punch to make the tape. Long story why. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From Mark at Misty.com Thu Aug 4 14:16:54 2016 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:16:54 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160804191653.GA22437@allie.home.misty.com> Hi Brad, On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 10:58:44PM -0700, Brad H wrote: > > > Thought I would post this here in case it reaches eyes my forum posts don't. ?So I finally got my hands on a SWTPC 6800! ? > This machine is chock full of boards.. 4 ram boards, the cpu card (with SWTBUG ROM), MP-S, MP-C serial cards, a floppy controller, some little custom board, a sound card.. etc. > This presents some challenges obviously, since the machine has been altered from stock it could be tricky getting it running. ... There was someone with a table at VCF-East for the past two years who had new SWTPC replica and enhanced interface boards. He also had interesting kim-1 peripheral boards, with things such as booting from SD-card support. I cannot remember his name right now, but I have one of his coffee mugs somewhere, so can find it out and follow up, if no one else beats me to it. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Aug 4 14:25:53 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 12:25:53 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> > I am heading to VCF West after a stop over in San Fran today...I am > looking forward to meeting up with everyone. I will be there all day > Friday as a set-up volunteer, Sat and Sunday morning. I was at the > last VCF before it was called "West" ... it's been too long. I am going to be there both days and look forward to meeting people In Real Life (TM). So should the list members get special badges or something so people can know who is who? Or *GASP* are we going to have to be personable and talk to each other! :D -Ali From cliendo at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 14:27:22 2016 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:27:22 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <20160804191653.GA22437@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20160804191653.GA22437@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > There was someone with a table at VCF-East for the past two years who had > new SWTPC replica and enhanced interface boards. He also had interesting > kim-1 peripheral boards, with things such as booting from SD-card support. > > I cannot remember his name right now, but I have one of his coffee mugs > somewhere, so can find it out and follow up, if no one else beats me to it. > http://www.corshamtech.com/ From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 14:28:46 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:28:46 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <20160804191653.GA22437@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20160804191653.GA22437@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <0d6401d1ee86$6b8a0210$429e0630$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark G Thomas Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 3:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 Hi Brad, On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 10:58:44PM -0700, Brad H wrote: > > > Thought I would post this here in case it reaches eyes my forum posts > don't. ?So I finally got my hands on a SWTPC 6800! This machine is chock full of boards.. 4 ram boards, the cpu card (with SWTBUG ROM), MP-S, MP-C serial cards, a floppy controller, some little custom board, a sound card.. etc. > This presents some challenges obviously, since the machine has been altered from stock it could be tricky getting it running. ... There was someone with a table at VCF-East for the past two years who had new SWTPC replica and enhanced interface boards. He also had interesting kim-1 peripheral boards, with things such as booting from SD-card support. I cannot remember his name right now, but I have one of his coffee mugs somewhere, so can find it out and follow up, if no one else beats me to it. Mark -- Sounds like http://www.corshamtech.com/ ----- From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 13:44:26 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:44:26 -0400 Subject: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough to count? References: <20160731162357.GA11329@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <0695D65E724E456597DA9ED6B3D19867@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 3:47 AM Subject: Re: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough to count? On 1 August 2016 at 08:39, Eric Smith wrote: > Both Windows 95 and Windows 98 do what you describe for Windows 98. > Both 95 and 98 can boot to DOS only, in real mode, but then you don't > get any GUI. In both 95 and 98, when you run the GUI, any DOS programs > you run are in virtual 8086 mode. > > I know more than I really want to about this, because at one job I had > the misfortune of having to write VxDs to provide services to those > DOS windows, specifically because they couldn't run normal real mode > drivers to talk to hardware. Exactly! This! All versions of W9x run in 386 protected mode, with DOS sessions in the 386's Virtual 8086 mode. There was no difference that I'm aware of between them. Between WfWg 3.11 and 9x, yes. Between 9x and NT, yes. But 95/98/ME, no, TTBOMK. If there _was_ some difference, [a] it was lept _very_ quiet, and [b], I want to know! -----Reply----- Should be simple enough for Jim S. to describe a test setup/configuration that would let us try it for ourselves and see the difference. m From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 14:32:06 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:32:06 -0400 Subject: more vintage computer stuff References: <01c201d1e848$91a1bb80$b4e53280$@com> <070394fb-607a-31f8-5dc2-717073a63f7a@bitsavers.org> <523868de-b372-f1a7-7dd1-7fd2ee7ffc6f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DEDF583757F42EBA4369CA86F01E373@310e2> Speaking of keyboards, I have an APL keyboard here but can't remember what terminal it's for: https://picasaweb.google.com/115794482077177620188/6315055733924603137?authuser=0&feat=directlink Connects via a DA-15; made by Keytronic but can't see any other meaningful markings. Anybody recognize it, or interested in it for that matter? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 1:38 PM Subject: Re: more vintage computer stuff > > > On 7/28/16 9:50 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > >> Interesting to look over his stuff, but if he's sold anything I've not >> heard about it. >> > > Thanks. I've been working on terminal archiving and simulation the past couple of > weeks, and I'm sure there are parts in there I could use. > > Terminals have reached the other side of the bathtub curve, and keyboard prices > are insane. I've been really disappointed in the ones I've been buying off eBay. > One of them was literally filled with sawdust, another covered in machine oil > from it being used in a machine shop. > > From turing at shaw.ca Thu Aug 4 15:00:28 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:00:28 -0600 (MDT) Subject: more vintage computer stuff In-Reply-To: <4DEDF583757F42EBA4369CA86F01E373@310e2> Message-ID: <1677747153.46234351.1470340828705.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca> Hi: I don't recognize it, but I collect APL (and LISP) memorabilia and am interested in it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Stein" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 12:32:06 PM Subject: Re: more vintage computer stuff Speaking of keyboards, I have an APL keyboard here but can't remember what terminal it's for: https://picasaweb.google.com/115794482077177620188/6315055733924603137?authuser=0&feat=directlink Connects via a DA-15; made by Keytronic but can't see any other meaningful markings. Anybody recognize it, or interested in it for that matter? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 1:38 PM Subject: Re: more vintage computer stuff > > > On 7/28/16 9:50 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > >> Interesting to look over his stuff, but if he's sold anything I've not >> heard about it. >> > > Thanks. I've been working on terminal archiving and simulation the past couple of > weeks, and I'm sure there are parts in there I could use. > > Terminals have reached the other side of the bathtub curve, and keyboard prices > are insane. I've been really disappointed in the ones I've been buying off eBay. > One of them was literally filled with sawdust, another covered in machine oil > from it being used in a machine shop. > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Aug 4 15:14:37 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 13:14:37 -0700 Subject: Keyboards etc. Message-ID: Definitely interested in any MDS/keypunch stuff. ?By no means am I done with the TVT.. just assembling all the vintage resistors and bits to get assembly going. ?I was hoping to have an MDS keyboard as is just to show people what the prototype came from. I would definitely be interested in an AC-30. ?Without question. ?Let me know! Brad Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Mike Stein Date: 2016-08-04 10:34 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Keyboards etc. ... Same here; I long for the good old days when they just asked where you were born... So, looks like you've pretty well finished your TV typewriters, so can I assume that you don't want/need any of the MDS etc. keyboard stuff we talked about long ago? Also, since you're into SWTPC stuff, would you be interested in an AC-30 to go between your CT-1024 and 6800 (assuming I can find it)? http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/AC30/AC30_Index.htm mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad H" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 10:33 AM Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > >??? > Thanks Jim! > Wish I could go but I'm up in BC and haven't renewed my passport in a couple of years. One of these days for sure though. > Brad > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: jim stephens > Date: 2016-08-03? 11:54 PM? (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > > > On 8/3/2016 10:58 PM, Brad H wrote: >> >> Thought I would post this here in case it reaches eyes my forum posts don't. So I finally got my hands on a SWTPC 6800! >> This machine is chock full of boards.. 4 ram boards, the cpu card (with SWTBUG ROM), MP-S, MP-C serial cards, a floppy controller, some little custom board, a sound card.. etc. >> This presents some challenges obviously, since the machine has been altered from stock it could be tricky getting it running. >> Before I had it stripped down, I tried powering up as is (i pulled the older MP-C card and put MP-S in slot 1). This produced little except for a string of random characters that would repeat every time I hit reset, exactly the same number. >> I tried stripping it down to CPU card, MP-S, and the RAM board designated as '0'.. but all I get at the terminal end is a single random character on power up. >> I then thought I'd try my luck putting the CPU card in my working MSI system (taking out its card). Nope. >> Now, because my CPU card has been modified to accomodate SWTBUG and possibly something else, I'm not sure if it'll even work in a stripped down config. Not sure about the interplay between boards. >> Anyway.. if anyone has any thoughts to point me in the right direction I'd be most appreciative. Ultimately I'd like to get this beast working with my CT1024 terminals. >> Brad >> > I saw an SWTPC booth registered at VCF West, maybe you should drop by. > I'll look in and see what they have and maybe they can help too. > > Only SWTPC gizmo I have is one of their audio amplifiers somewhere in > the pile. Picked up at TRW Swap Meet. > Thanks > jim > From other at oryx.us Thu Aug 4 17:46:08 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 17:46:08 -0500 Subject: Bill Gates: Windows 95 Was 'A High Point' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57A3C5B0.3080906@oryx.us> In a similar, but completely unrelated story, I have an un-opened can of J.R. (Ewing) beer from the "Dallas" TV show from the 1970's. "If you have to ask how much it cost, you probably can't afford it" Maybe one day our paths will cross and we can pop-the-top on our old beer cans. Everything else being equal, I would trade my can for a new/current vintage Sapporo that I could drink! Jerry On 08/ 3/16 11:53 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > I have a can of Sapporo beer with the Win 95 logo - not a sticker, part of > the 'paint job' of the can! It's still full, too - I've never been a big a > fan of Sapporo, it's obviously cooler as a 'complete' artifact, and by now > that stuff in there must be incredibly funky.... > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 4 18:15:44 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 16:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough to count? In-Reply-To: <0695D65E724E456597DA9ED6B3D19867@310e2> References: <20160731162357.GA11329@tau1.ceti.pl> <0695D65E724E456597DA9ED6B3D19867@310e2> Message-ID: If it's any help, . . . Among the stuff that I'm taking to the consignment table at VCF are a bunch of Windows Resource Kit, and some Windows programming books. (Half a dozen boxes, NOT including anything already in FPUIB.) But, with this structure, and being more "premium", they ain't free. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 4 20:33:09 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 18:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF books (Was: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough In-Reply-To: References: <20160731162357.GA11329@tau1.ceti.pl> <0695D65E724E456597DA9ED6B3D19867@310e2> Message-ID: Can anybody advise me how much I should charge for PC Technical Reference Manuals (IBM binders in slipcases) and Windows Resource Kits (big book - only real documentation for Windoze) I've got a lot of different ones, and no longer feel the need for them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From kirkbdavis at me.com Thu Aug 4 21:55:30 2016 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 19:55:30 -0700 Subject: VCF books (Was: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough In-Reply-To: References: <20160731162357.GA11329@tau1.ceti.pl> <0695D65E724E456597DA9ED6B3D19867@310e2> Message-ID: <79918DE7-313C-48B6-8D08-196C71F3CAFF@me.com> If it?s what the market will bear eBay provides the answer :-) http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=ibm%20pc%20technical%20reference&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684 Looks like $25 to $35 although a ?First addition 1981? one appeared to go for $85.. Kirk > On Aug 4, 2016, at 6:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Can anybody advise me how much I should charge for PC Technical Reference Manuals (IBM binders in slipcases) and > Windows Resource Kits (big book - only real documentation for Windoze) > > I've got a lot of different ones, and no longer feel the need for them. > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Aug 4 22:44:09 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 20:44:09 -0700 Subject: VCF books (Was: Is MS-DOS, PC DOS and DR-DOS vintage enough Message-ID: I don't know about using eBay as things are all over the place. I have paid from $0.99 + s&h to $29.99 w/ free shipping (for something that is useful e.g. HMS for 5150 in unopened condition). My average seems to be $9.99 for more popular stuff and $4.99 for esoteric stuff (say GTO to the 7327 plotter). Every once in a while things sell for crazy prices (do you really need the TR to the cluster network for $90?). What sells high seems to be SW specially DOS 1.0 and IBM branded CP/M. Those are fetching >$500 these days. Just my two cents.... -Ali From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Aug 4 14:57:58 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 12:57:58 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 6800 'Developer Computer' In-Reply-To: <011701d1ee6c$d04c1220$70e43660$@bettercomputing.net> References: <011701d1ee6c$d04c1220$70e43660$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: There is a rare chance I might have some information. At Tek anyone could order a system, and if wanted one for you own use everything was at cost. The chassis you have does not look like the one I use to see the most, that chassis has a much simpler front and back that was the same height as the sides. They were made to introduce microprocessors to the engineers within the company, "bit bucket" comes to mind but "board bucket" may have been the name. There were CPU boards for just about every uP, and a list of 'standard' I/O boards, and accessories like 5-1/4" floppy drives. One thing that help with their internal success was Tek was a very vertical company, they made their own metal work, PCBs, transformers, etc, and being a major buyer of components the cost for parts was much less. For example many Motorola part prices were based on aggregate quantities. When I started at Tek in 1977 the list of what you could order was quite extensive. Back to what you have. It may predate the buckets. It has been way to long. As to getting anything from the current Tek, forget it. The company was sold and the current owners couldn't give a d*** about the past. The one board I can make out a P/N on is an engineering number and those archives were dumpstered long long ago. On the flip side here is what I would do. Contact the Tek Museum (which is not tied to Tek in anyway), www.vintagetek.org. And send me an email I will see what I can dig up, maybe a couple emails of Ex Tekkies that can help -pete PS SWTP was the most common O/S for the 6800/6802/6809 buckets. On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Brad H wrote: > Hey guys, > > > > In addition to that 6800 SWTPC I got, I also picked up this 'board bucket' > from ebay: > > > > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/library/ > Tektronix%206800%20Dev > eloper%20Computer?sort=3 > Tektronix%206800%20De > veloper%20Computer?sort=3&page=1> &page=1 > > > > It's a 6800 system of sorts and has BASIC and 'DDE' ROMs. I've tried > hooking it up to a terminal but no response. I think the system isn't > fully > running. This is a video I took: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YSUuF6xTAg > > > > Hard to see with the camera, but when you hit and hold reset the little > display looks sort of normal. When you release, it's like some of the > segments are half-on rather than fully on or off. I tried pulling RAM > boards > and such but no action yet. Step button on the CPU card doesn't do > anything. > > > > If anyone has seen one of these or has any ideas on getting her working, > I'd > be most interested. I sent an email to Tektronix to inquire about it as > there are part numbers and stuff on the boards. Hopefully they can answer > questions. > > > > Brad > > > > > > > From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Aug 4 15:18:01 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 13:18:01 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 6800 'Developer Computer' In-Reply-To: References: <011701d1ee6c$d04c1220$70e43660$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: Just found this .. someone to contact http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BoardBucket http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=117817190126728 (same person) On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:57 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > There is a rare chance I might have some information. At Tek anyone could > order a system, and if wanted one for you own use everything was at cost. > The chassis you have does not look like the one I use to see the most, that > chassis has a much simpler front and back that was the same height as the > sides. > > They were made to introduce microprocessors to the engineers within the > company, "bit bucket" comes to mind but "board bucket" may have been the > name. There were CPU boards for just about every uP, and a list of > 'standard' I/O boards, and accessories like 5-1/4" floppy drives. > > One thing that help with their internal success was Tek was a very > vertical company, they made their own metal work, PCBs, transformers, etc, > and being a major buyer of components the cost for parts was much less. For > example many Motorola part prices were based on aggregate quantities. > > When I started at Tek in 1977 the list of what you could order was quite > extensive. > > Back to what you have. It may predate the buckets. It has been way to long. > > As to getting anything from the current Tek, forget it. The company was > sold and the current owners couldn't give a d*** about the past. > > The one board I can make out a P/N on is an engineering number and those > archives were dumpstered long long ago. > > On the flip side here is what I would do. Contact the Tek Museum (which is > not tied to Tek in anyway), www.vintagetek.org. And send me an email I > will see what I can dig up, maybe a couple emails of Ex Tekkies that can > help > > -pete > > PS SWTP was the most common O/S for the 6800/6802/6809 buckets. > > > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Brad H bettercomputing.net> wrote: > >> Hey guys, >> >> >> >> In addition to that 6800 SWTPC I got, I also picked up this 'board bucket' >> from ebay: >> >> >> >> http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/library/Tektro >> nix%206800%20Dev >> eloper%20Computer?sort=3 >> >> > onix%206800%20De >> veloper%20Computer?sort=3&page=1 >> > >> &page=1 >> >> >> >> It's a 6800 system of sorts and has BASIC and 'DDE' ROMs. I've tried >> hooking it up to a terminal but no response. I think the system isn't >> fully >> running. This is a video I took: >> >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YSUuF6xTAg >> >> >> >> Hard to see with the camera, but when you hit and hold reset the little >> display looks sort of normal. When you release, it's like some of the >> segments are half-on rather than fully on or off. I tried pulling RAM >> boards >> and such but no action yet. Step button on the CPU card doesn't do >> anything. >> >> >> >> If anyone has seen one of these or has any ideas on getting her working, >> I'd >> be most interested. I sent an email to Tektronix to inquire about it as >> there are part numbers and stuff on the boards. Hopefully they can >> answer >> questions. >> >> >> >> Brad >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > From wsudol at freedom.com Thu Aug 4 15:49:02 2016 From: wsudol at freedom.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 20:49:02 +0000 Subject: DEC Transistor assortment on Ebay Message-ID: Just spyed this on Ebay - a box of DEC Transistors for sale. Might be useful to have if you like to repair DEC boards. http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-CORPORATION-TRANSISTOR-ASSORTMENT-NOS-/112082168459?hash=item1a189e2a8b:g:zaEAAOSwbsBXotpF Wayne From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 5 00:53:36 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 22:53:36 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 6800 'Developer Computer' In-Reply-To: References: <011701d1ee6c$d04c1220$70e43660$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <006601d1eedd$b6115f70$22341e50$@bettercomputing.net> Thanks Pete. I believe the person that sold this to me contacted Tek Museum and the best they could say was it 'looked like' a board bucket, that had been upgraded a little later on. But not much info beyond that. I emailed Rick Bensene also. Hopefully he might have a clue. Thanks for the very useful tips! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 12:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tektronix 6800 'Developer Computer' There is a rare chance I might have some information. At Tek anyone could order a system, and if wanted one for you own use everything was at cost. The chassis you have does not look like the one I use to see the most, that chassis has a much simpler front and back that was the same height as the sides. They were made to introduce microprocessors to the engineers within the company, "bit bucket" comes to mind but "board bucket" may have been the name. There were CPU boards for just about every uP, and a list of 'standard' I/O boards, and accessories like 5-1/4" floppy drives. One thing that help with their internal success was Tek was a very vertical company, they made their own metal work, PCBs, transformers, etc, and being a major buyer of components the cost for parts was much less. For example many Motorola part prices were based on aggregate quantities. When I started at Tek in 1977 the list of what you could order was quite extensive. Back to what you have. It may predate the buckets. It has been way to long. As to getting anything from the current Tek, forget it. The company was sold and the current owners couldn't give a d*** about the past. The one board I can make out a P/N on is an engineering number and those archives were dumpstered long long ago. On the flip side here is what I would do. Contact the Tek Museum (which is not tied to Tek in anyway), www.vintagetek.org. And send me an email I will see what I can dig up, maybe a couple emails of Ex Tekkies that can help -pete PS SWTP was the most common O/S for the 6800/6802/6809 buckets. On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Brad H wrote: > Hey guys, > > > > In addition to that 6800 SWTPC I got, I also picked up this 'board bucket' > from ebay: > > > > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/library/ > Tektronix%206800%20Dev > eloper%20Computer?sort=3 > Tektronix%206800%20De > veloper%20Computer?sort=3&page=1> &page=1 > > > > It's a 6800 system of sorts and has BASIC and 'DDE' ROMs. I've tried > hooking it up to a terminal but no response. I think the system isn't > fully > running. This is a video I took: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YSUuF6xTAg > > > > Hard to see with the camera, but when you hit and hold reset the > little display looks sort of normal. When you release, it's like some > of the segments are half-on rather than fully on or off. I tried > pulling RAM boards and such but no action yet. Step button on the CPU > card doesn't do anything. > > > > If anyone has seen one of these or has any ideas on getting her > working, I'd be most interested. I sent an email to Tektronix to > inquire about it as > there are part numbers and stuff on the boards. Hopefully they can answer > questions. > > > > Brad > > > > > > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 5 00:58:20 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 22:58:20 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <0d6401d1ee86$6b8a0210$429e0630$@gmail.com> References: <20160804191653.GA22437@allie.home.misty.com> <0d6401d1ee86$6b8a0210$429e0630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006901d1eede$5f9a6780$1ecf3680$@bettercomputing.net> I think this 6800 is live but I am being dogged by my inabilities when it comes to cabling. I'm going to purchase a 'proper' db25 female connector and the molex pins for the MP-S connector and solder it up. I tried sort of using jumper wires to make it go. When I turn the 6800 on, the PC terminal I'm using reacts by producing single or strings of random characters. According to the SWTPC 'system checkout' stuff, if I get anything at all showing up on the terminal it usually means the 6800 is alive. Based on the notes written on the MP-S, I'm confident I have the correct baud rate and bit (8) and parity (1) settings, but alas, doesn't seem to work. When I ran into this sort of thing with MSI 6800 it turned out the baud rate switch on the serial card wasn't correct, despite factory labelling. That might be the case here but not really sure how to sort it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 12:29 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 01:33:03 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 07:33:03 +0100 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <006901d1eede$5f9a6780$1ecf3680$@bettercomputing.net> References: <20160804191653.GA22437@allie.home.misty.com> <0d6401d1ee86$6b8a0210$429e0630$@gmail.com> <006901d1eede$5f9a6780$1ecf3680$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <012901d1eee3$39021640$ab0642c0$@gmail.com> "Random Stuff" on serial ports can be a speed, data-bits, or even parity mis-match. I assume you have tried tweaking these? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H > Sent: 05 August 2016 06:58 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > I think this 6800 is live but I am being dogged by my inabilities when it comes > to cabling. I'm going to purchase a 'proper' db25 female connector and the > molex pins for the MP-S connector and solder it up. I tried sort of using > jumper wires to make it go. When I turn the 6800 on, the PC terminal I'm > using reacts by producing single or strings of random characters. > According to the SWTPC 'system checkout' stuff, if I get anything at all > showing up on the terminal it usually means the 6800 is alive. Based on the > notes written on the MP-S, I'm confident I have the correct baud rate and bit > (8) and parity (1) settings, but alas, doesn't seem to work. When I ran into > this sort of thing with MSI 6800 it turned out the baud rate switch on the > serial card wasn't correct, despite factory labelling. That might be the case > here but not really sure how to sort it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel > Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 12:29 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 01:34:17 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 07:34:17 +0100 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <006901d1eede$5f9a6780$1ecf3680$@bettercomputing.net> References: <20160804191653.GA22437@allie.home.misty.com> <0d6401d1ee86$6b8a0210$429e0630$@gmail.com> <006901d1eede$5f9a6780$1ecf3680$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <012a01d1eee3$64f3a110$2edae330$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H > Sent: 05 August 2016 06:58 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > I think this 6800 is live but I am being dogged by my inabilities when it comes > to cabling. I'm going to purchase a 'proper' db25 female connector and the > molex pins for the MP-S connector and solder it up. I tried sort of using > jumper wires to make it go. When I turn the 6800 on, the PC terminal I'm > using reacts by producing single or strings of random characters. Sounds like you have the proper connections... > According to the SWTPC 'system checkout' stuff, if I get anything at all > showing up on the terminal it usually means the 6800 is alive. Based on the > notes written on the MP-S, I'm confident I have the correct baud rate and bit > (8) and parity (1) settings, but alas, doesn't seem to work. When I ran into > this sort of thing with MSI 6800 it turned out the baud rate switch on the > serial card wasn't correct, despite factory labelling. That might be the case > here but not really sure how to sort it. > Try different speeds in your terminal emaulation program? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel > Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 12:29 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 5 01:46:12 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 23:46:12 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: Yes.. I tried 7 bits.. different parity settings, speeds etc. ?Couldn't quite nail it down. ?In every tutorial online for the 6800 being used with PC terminal, they go 8 N 1.. nobody mentions specifically if you are supposed to use hardware or xo/off or nothing though. ?So that's another thing. ?I'm also confused because some docs mention baud rate settings for the cpu board? I'm also not sure if bad RAM or bad TTL etc could be contributing to just throwing out random junk too. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Dave Wade Date: 2016-08-04 11:33 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 "Random Stuff" on serial ports can be a speed, data-bits, or even parity mis-match. I assume you have tried tweaking these? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H > Sent: 05 August 2016 06:58 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > I think this 6800 is live but I am being dogged by my inabilities when it comes > to cabling.? I'm going to purchase a 'proper' db25 female connector and the > molex pins for the MP-S connector and solder it up.? I tried sort of using > jumper wires to make it go.? When I turn the 6800 on, the PC terminal I'm > using reacts by producing single or strings of random characters. > According to the SWTPC 'system checkout' stuff, if I get anything at all > showing up on the terminal it usually means the 6800 is alive.? Based on the > notes written on the MP-S, I'm confident I have the correct baud rate and bit > (8) and parity (1) settings, but alas, doesn't seem to work.? When I ran into > this sort of thing with MSI 6800 it turned out the baud rate switch on the > serial card wasn't correct, despite factory labelling.? That might be the case > here but not really sure how to sort it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel > Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 12:29 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 5 02:37:25 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 00:37:25 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D945B16-7404-493C-8FBE-6FF6FBDD389A@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Aug-04, at 11:46 PM, Brad H wrote: > Dave > Yes.. I tried 7 bits.. different parity settings, speeds etc. Couldn't quite nail it down. In every tutorial online for the 6800 being used with PC terminal, they go 8 N 1.. nobody mentions specifically if you are supposed to use hardware or xo/off or nothing though. So that's another thing. I'm also confused because some docs mention baud rate settings for the cpu board? > I'm also not sure if bad RAM or bad TTL etc could be contributing to just throwing out random junk too. (Disclaimer: All my SWTP-6800 stuff is packed away at the moment, I'm going strictly from memory here.) Flow control shouldn't be an issue. This was an early simple (and slow) system, there was no active flow control (leaving aside the reader-run control for the TTY PTR). What speed are you running at? I'd suggest starting out at a lower speed (300-1200). Do you get a consistent response each time you hit the RESET button on the SWTP-6800? The monitor pumps out a single prompt character at reset. If you always get one character but the wrong character (or couple) after reset it could be a simple terminal protocol mismatch error, as you are pursuing. If it's inconsistent, it may be a deeper problem. If you have a DSO, you could sample the RS-232 output to the terminal and decode it to confirm the framing and bit rate are as you intend. Random questions / things to check: 1. The MP-S is in the correct I/O slot for SWTBUG to find it for the console device? (The SWTP-6800 backplane decodes the I/O addresses to particular slots.) 2. IIRC, MIKBUG only knows how to work the MP-C interface for the console, while SWTBUG can do both MP-C & MP-S. The proper ROM is present and the CPU board switches are configured correctly for SWTBUG? Alternatively, you might consider trying the MP-C rather than the MP-S, although it's another set of hardware config jumpers to sort out. (The MP-C was the original console interface as specified by Moto for MIKBUG, the MP-S came later.) 3. IIRC, both BUG monitors require some RAM up at $Exxx or $Fxxx for the monitor stack (that 6810 RAM). I don't think only having RAM down at $0000 will suffice. The idea with the 6800 generally was system stuff (including the BUG monitors) was up at the top of mem, while low mem was freely available to the user. (One of the world-view diffs between the 6800 and Z80.) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 04:42:20 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 10:42:20 +0100 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H > Sent: 05 August 2016 07:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > > Yes.. I tried 7 bits.. different parity settings, speeds etc. Couldn't quite nail it > down. In every tutorial online for the 6800 being used with PC terminal, they > go 8 N 1.. nobody mentions specifically if you are supposed to use hardware > or xo/off or nothing though. So that's another thing. I'm also confused > because some docs mention baud rate settings for the cpu board? > I'm also not sure if bad RAM or bad TTL etc could be contributing to just > throwing out random junk too. > If the data received is inconstant then bad RAM is a likely cause, ROM usually fails consistanly. but as with all problem solving, Conan Doyle had it right when he said "after eliminating the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the solution" Dave > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Dave Wade > Date: 2016-08-04 11:33 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > "Random Stuff" on serial ports can be a speed, data-bits, or even parity mis- > match. > I assume you have tried tweaking these? > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad > > H > > Sent: 05 August 2016 06:58 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > > I think this 6800 is live but I am being dogged by my inabilities when > > it > comes > > to cabling. I'm going to purchase a 'proper' db25 female connector > > and > the > > molex pins for the MP-S connector and solder it up. I tried sort of > > using jumper wires to make it go. When I turn the 6800 on, the PC > > terminal I'm using reacts by producing single or strings of random > characters. > > According to the SWTPC 'system checkout' stuff, if I get anything at > > all showing up on the terminal it usually means the 6800 is alive. > > Based on > the > > notes written on the MP-S, I'm confident I have the correct baud rate > > and > bit > > (8) and parity (1) settings, but alas, doesn't seem to work. When I > > ran > into > > this sort of thing with MSI 6800 it turned out the baud rate switch on > > the serial card wasn't correct, despite factory labelling. That might > > be the > case > > here but not really sure how to sort it. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Birkel > > Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 12:29 PM > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 5 09:44:48 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 10:44:48 -0400 Subject: DEC Transistor assortment on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A1DACD2-8DB0-43C0-B0C7-D2D0BF5F7F40@comcast.net> > On Aug 4, 2016, at 4:49 PM, Wayne Sudol wrote: > > Just spyed this on Ebay - a box of DEC Transistors for sale. > Might be useful to have if you like to repair DEC boards. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-CORPORATION-TRANSISTOR-ASSORTMENT-NOS-/112082168459?hash=item1a189e2a8b:g:zaEAAOSwbsBXotpF Interesting. When looking at this I tripped over another DEC related item: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-CORPORATION-REEL-GO-NOGO-GAUGE/112082166031 I'm not sure what you'd use it for unless you were manufacturing DECtape reels, but it certainly is interesting. You could make one yourself, if you have a lathe and the ability to hold tight tolerances. One of the photos actually shows the dimensions as written on the gauge. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 09:43:52 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 14:43:52 +0000 Subject: DEC Transistor assortment on Ebay In-Reply-To: <6A1DACD2-8DB0-43C0-B0C7-D2D0BF5F7F40@comcast.net> References: , <6A1DACD2-8DB0-43C0-B0C7-D2D0BF5F7F40@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Interesting. When looking at this I tripped over another DEC related item: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-CORPORATION-REEL-GO-NOGO-GAUGE/112082166031 > > I'm not sure what you'd use it for unless you were manufacturing DECtape > reels, but it certainly is interesting. You could make one yourself, if you > have a lathe and the ability to hold tight tolerances. One of the photos > actually shows the dimensions as written on the gauge. Which suggests the spec is 2.5" +/- 5 thou (or thereabouts). -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 5 10:07:24 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:07:24 -0400 Subject: DECtape reel gauge In-Reply-To: References: <6A1DACD2-8DB0-43C0-B0C7-D2D0BF5F7F40@comcast.net> Message-ID: <127A672D-FBE8-4A82-BCAC-D425E9173951@comcast.net> > On Aug 5, 2016, at 10:43 AM, tony duell wrote: > > >> Interesting. When looking at this I tripped over another DEC related item: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-CORPORATION-REEL-GO-NOGO-GAUGE/112082166031 >> >> I'm not sure what you'd use it for unless you were manufacturing DECtape >> reels, but it certainly is interesting. You could make one yourself, if you >> have a lathe and the ability to hold tight tolerances. One of the photos >> actually shows the dimensions as written on the gauge. > > Which suggests the spec is 2.5" +/- 5 thou (or thereabouts). Yes, that's what those numbers imply. It sounds plausible, given the springy hub used on DECtape. I remember once or twice having to use a piece of punch card as a shim to keep a reel from coming off. Not clear if wear was involved or an out of spec part that slipped through. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 5 10:51:36 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 08:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > but as with all problem solving, Conan Doyle had it right when he said > "after eliminating the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, > must be the solution" That quote is often horribly abused. Diagnosis by elimination is inherently faulty. Beginners, and "experts", will often use it to justify ridiculous premises, "because I eliminated everything else", while not having truly eliminated some of the most basic possibilities. "It must be the carburetor, because everything else is new" usually meant that they had not gapped the points properly, or had the wrong firing order. 37? years ago, it took me 3 weeks to get ink on paper with a serial printing terminal and a TRS80, because I made stupid assumptions because I thought that I had eliminated . . . and didn't even realize that there was a bad connection between the serial interface and the rest of the Expansion Interface. Why do you think that you have the right baud rate? It might be 9600, but if it was expecting a printing terminal, then it might be 300, 150, 134.5, 110, 75 In spite of "standardization" (everybody has a unique one of their own), sometimes you run into some handshaking using signals besides DSR, DTR, RTS, CTS. Such as CD (8), CD2 (12)!, RI(22) "misuse of the standard"? absolutely. (using db25 pinout - BTW, a DE9 is not a DB9. A real DB9 consists of a DB shell with 1 thru 8 and 20) It can be frustrating. There is at least one documented fatality from the frustration of serial cabling. Guy took a printer and computer to store to get it cabled; after 6 weeks without success, he shot the tech. Joe Campbell was sure that was an urban legend, so he tracked down the case, and mentioned it in one of his books. I don't intend to ever do it again; I'm getting rid of my ARC Data Tek 9600 DTS-1. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chrise at pobox.com Fri Aug 5 10:55:58 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 10:55:58 -0500 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160805155558.GL2132@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (08/04/2016 at 11:46PM -0700), Brad H wrote: > > > Yes.. I tried 7 bits.. different parity settings, speeds etc. ?Couldn't quite nail it down. ?In every tutorial online for the 6800 being used with PC terminal, they go 8 N 1.. nobody mentions specifically if you are supposed to use hardware or xo/off or nothing though. ?So that's another thing. ?I'm also confused because some docs mention baud rate settings for the cpu board? > I'm also not sure if bad RAM or bad TTL etc could be contributing to just throwing out random junk too. On SS-50, the baudrate clocks are sourced from the CPU board onto approx 5 pins on the backplane. Originally, the top speed was 1200 baud and the MP-S and other cards would be jumpered to whichever clock (and therefore pin on the backplane) was the desired rate for that port. Over time, people wanted the ports to run at higher speeds and so would make a change on the CPU board (cut and jump, flip a switch, depending on design) to repurpose a backplane clock line from its original less desireable rate to a faster one. For example, 150 baud was seldom used and might get repurposed to a 9600 baud clock. So, you need to know something about the CPU board's design in order to know what clock rates get routed onto which backplane baud clock signals and then you need to know which backplane baud clock signal the MP-S card is connected to for its baud clock. These were almost always 16X clocks too, so if you scope the backplane signals, the rates you see should be 16 times what the baud rate is. Chris > -------- Original message -------- > From: Dave Wade > Date: 2016-08-04 11:33 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > "Random Stuff" on serial ports can be a speed, data-bits, or even parity > mis-match. > I assume you have tried tweaking these? > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H > > Sent: 05 August 2016 06:58 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > > I think this 6800 is live but I am being dogged by my inabilities when it > comes > > to cabling.? I'm going to purchase a 'proper' db25 female connector and > the > > molex pins for the MP-S connector and solder it up.? I tried sort of using > > jumper wires to make it go.? When I turn the 6800 on, the PC terminal I'm > > using reacts by producing single or strings of random characters. > > According to the SWTPC 'system checkout' stuff, if I get anything at all > > showing up on the terminal it usually means the 6800 is alive.? Based on > the > > notes written on the MP-S, I'm confident I have the correct baud rate and > bit > > (8) and parity (1) settings, but alas, doesn't seem to work.? When I ran > into > > this sort of thing with MSI 6800 it turned out the baud rate switch on the > > serial card wasn't correct, despite factory labelling.? That might be the > case > > here but not really sure how to sort it. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Birkel > > Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 12:29 PM > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > > -- Chris Elmquist From applecorey at optonline.net Fri Aug 5 11:06:10 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:06:10 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> Message-ID: Well come look for me and say HI. I'll be there. corey cohen u??o? ???o? On Aug 4, 2016, at 12:25 PM, Ali wrote: >> I am heading to VCF West after a stop over in San Fran today...I am >> looking forward to meeting up with everyone. I will be there all day >> Friday as a set-up volunteer, Sat and Sunday morning. I was at the >> last VCF before it was called "West" ... it's been too long. > > I am going to be there both days and look forward to meeting people In Real Life (TM). So should the list members get special badges or something so people can know who is who? Or *GASP* are we going to have to be personable and talk to each other! :D > > -Ali > From applecorey at optonline.net Fri Aug 5 11:06:10 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:06:10 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> Message-ID: Well come look for me and say HI. I'll be there. corey cohen u??o? ???o? On Aug 4, 2016, at 12:25 PM, Ali wrote: >> I am heading to VCF West after a stop over in San Fran today...I am >> looking forward to meeting up with everyone. I will be there all day >> Friday as a set-up volunteer, Sat and Sunday morning. I was at the >> last VCF before it was called "West" ... it's been too long. > > I am going to be there both days and look forward to meeting people In Real Life (TM). So should the list members get special badges or something so people can know who is who? Or *GASP* are we going to have to be personable and talk to each other! :D > > -Ali > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 11:07:25 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:07:25 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Ali wrote: > > I am heading to VCF West after a stop over in San Fran today...I am > > looking forward to meeting up with everyone. I will be there all day > > Friday as a set-up volunteer, Sat and Sunday morning. I was at the > > last VCF before it was called "West" ... it's been too long. > > I am going to be there both days and look forward to meeting people In > Real Life (TM). So should the list members get special badges or something > so people can know who is who? Or *GASP* are we going to have to be > personable and talk to each other! :D > > -Ali > > I'll be there co-running the Living Computer Museum's exhibit. Stop by and say hi! - Josh From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 5 11:55:08 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:55:08 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <5D945B16-7404-493C-8FBE-6FF6FBDD389A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5D945B16-7404-493C-8FBE-6FF6FBDD389A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <009301d1ef3a$2083b860$618b2920$@bettercomputing.net> I'll answer by number here: 1) MP-S is in Slot 1, per instructions. 2) This MP-A board has been modified for both SWTBUG and Flex. I noted the traces that were cut and matched to both configs. 3) Ah, this may be part of my problem. I don't quite understand memory addressing yet. The instructions said you needed RAM at A000 if the 6810 chip was disabled (which it appears to be, the correct trace is cut). My machine has 4 RAM boards. 2 are MPM, 2 are 16K DRC boards. For whatever reason, the DRC boards are config-ed to be first (0000-3FFF) and second (4000-7FFF). Trying to strip the machine down and have as little RAM as I could get away with, I just installed the single board at 0000-3FFF. These boards are (thank god) socketed, so I have some means of testing and removing RAM. The MP-M boards are not socketed, so I don't want to mess with those until I have to. I could config the second DRC board for the $Exxx-$Fxxx and shove it in there. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 12:37 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 On 2016-Aug-04, at 11:46 PM, Brad H wrote: > Dave > Yes.. I tried 7 bits.. different parity settings, speeds etc. Couldn't quite nail it down. In every tutorial online for the 6800 being used with PC terminal, they go 8 N 1.. nobody mentions specifically if you are supposed to use hardware or xo/off or nothing though. So that's another thing. I'm also confused because some docs mention baud rate settings for the cpu board? > I'm also not sure if bad RAM or bad TTL etc could be contributing to just throwing out random junk too. (Disclaimer: All my SWTP-6800 stuff is packed away at the moment, I'm going strictly from memory here.) Flow control shouldn't be an issue. This was an early simple (and slow) system, there was no active flow control (leaving aside the reader-run control for the TTY PTR). What speed are you running at? I'd suggest starting out at a lower speed (300-1200). Do you get a consistent response each time you hit the RESET button on the SWTP-6800? The monitor pumps out a single prompt character at reset. If you always get one character but the wrong character (or couple) after reset it could be a simple terminal protocol mismatch error, as you are pursuing. If it's inconsistent, it may be a deeper problem. If you have a DSO, you could sample the RS-232 output to the terminal and decode it to confirm the framing and bit rate are as you intend. Random questions / things to check: 1. The MP-S is in the correct I/O slot for SWTBUG to find it for the console device? (The SWTP-6800 backplane decodes the I/O addresses to particular slots.) 2. IIRC, MIKBUG only knows how to work the MP-C interface for the console, while SWTBUG can do both MP-C & MP-S. The proper ROM is present and the CPU board switches are configured correctly for SWTBUG? Alternatively, you might consider trying the MP-C rather than the MP-S, although it's another set of hardware config jumpers to sort out. (The MP-C was the original console interface as specified by Moto for MIKBUG, the MP-S came later.) 3. IIRC, both BUG monitors require some RAM up at $Exxx or $Fxxx for the monitor stack (that 6810 RAM). I don't think only having RAM down at $0000 will suffice. The idea with the 6800 generally was system stuff (including the BUG monitors) was up at the top of mem, while low mem was freely available to the user. (One of the world-view diffs between the 6800 and Z80.) From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 5 11:56:30 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:56:30 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009401d1ef3a$5173a4d0$f45aee70$@bettercomputing.net> RAM could certainly be an issue. I had *tons* of bad RAM dogging me with my Digital Group Z80. That took two weeks of testing to get through it. I might just test out all this RAM in the DRC boards first and see if I can get away with just using those rather than bringing the soldered MP-M boards into the mix right now. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 2:42 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad > H > Sent: 05 August 2016 07:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > > Yes.. I tried 7 bits.. different parity settings, speeds etc. > Couldn't quite nail it down. In every tutorial online for the 6800 > being used with PC terminal, they go 8 N 1.. nobody mentions > specifically if you are supposed to use hardware or xo/off or nothing > though. So that's another thing. I'm also confused because some docs mention baud rate settings for the cpu board? > I'm also not sure if bad RAM or bad TTL etc could be contributing to > just throwing out random junk too. > If the data received is inconstant then bad RAM is a likely cause, ROM usually fails consistanly. but as with all problem solving, Conan Doyle had it right when he said "after eliminating the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the solution" Dave > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Dave Wade > Date: 2016-08-04 11:33 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > "Random Stuff" on serial ports can be a speed, data-bits, or even > parity mis- match. > I assume you have tried tweaking these? > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > Brad H > > Sent: 05 August 2016 06:58 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > > I think this 6800 is live but I am being dogged by my inabilities > > when it > comes > > to cabling. I'm going to purchase a 'proper' db25 female connector > > and > the > > molex pins for the MP-S connector and solder it up. I tried sort of > > using jumper wires to make it go. When I turn the 6800 on, the PC > > terminal I'm using reacts by producing single or strings of random > characters. > > According to the SWTPC 'system checkout' stuff, if I get anything at > > all showing up on the terminal it usually means the 6800 is alive. > > Based on > the > > notes written on the MP-S, I'm confident I have the correct baud > > rate and > bit > > (8) and parity (1) settings, but alas, doesn't seem to work. When I > > ran > into > > this sort of thing with MSI 6800 it turned out the baud rate switch > > on the serial card wasn't correct, despite factory labelling. That > > might be the > case > > here but not really sure how to sort it. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > Paul > Birkel > > Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 12:29 PM > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 12:01:03 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:01:03 -0400 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> Message-ID: I am here now, will be around all day helping set up. I have not been to the CHM since the last VCF...The space for the event looks good, tables are out and waiting for exhibitors. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Ali wrote: > > > > I am heading to VCF West after a stop over in San Fran today...I am > > > looking forward to meeting up with everyone. I will be there all day > > > Friday as a set-up volunteer, Sat and Sunday morning. I was at the > > > last VCF before it was called "West" ... it's been too long. > > > > I am going to be there both days and look forward to meeting people In > > Real Life (TM). So should the list members get special badges or > something > > so people can know who is who? Or *GASP* are we going to have to be > > personable and talk to each other! :D > > > > -Ali > > > > > I'll be there co-running the Living Computer Museum's exhibit. Stop by and > say hi! > > - Josh > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 5 12:04:25 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 10:04:25 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009501d1ef3b$6c7e9900$457bcb00$@bettercomputing.net> I don't think I have the right baud rate at all... as I mentioned, my MSI 6800 has a very well labelled serial card and I set it to whatever baud rate I was going for, set my terminal up and it wouldn't work. It was only by accident that I discovered if I set the terminal to 9600 baud it worked. Some of the other switches worked at the speeds labelled but I think 1200 or whatever was 9600. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if this thing was modified beyond. I have the MP-S, and I have the previous owner's handwritten sticker with the baud rates for each of the 5 DIP switches.. and so I've got it set at what should be 300, but I have tried other baud rates up and down the line without success so far. Going up just produces longer strings of random characters. Going down produces less. I am using a 25 pin femaile to 9 pin female null modem cable. The 9 pin goes into my old Thinkpad 380 and the 25 pin I have jumpered. I followed the guide here: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/HiTerm/MPS_to_DB25.pdf Now, I don't have a DB25 female connector I could solder wires to. So what I did was, where required to loop pin 4 to 5, I just took some jumper wire, and went from pin 4 to 5 on the female 25 pin (at the computer end), 6 to 20, 6 to 8, and so on. You can get two jumper wire pins into a single shaft so the connections are all good. But maybe it doesn't work that way, I know null modem cables are a bit different. In any event, wired as such, the terminal got nothing from the computer at all. In the event, I ended up reducing to having the MP-S set up per the instructions, and then just had the TX RX and ground connected from the card to the female connector. With that setup, I get a response, albeit garbled. I'm certain cabling is an issue here. I get a bit dyslexic with pins and understanding how things change on a cable like a null modem. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 8:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > but as with all problem solving, Conan Doyle had it right when he said > "after eliminating the impossible, whatever is left, however > improbable, must be the solution" That quote is often horribly abused. Diagnosis by elimination is inherently faulty. Beginners, and "experts", will often use it to justify ridiculous premises, "because I eliminated everything else", while not having truly eliminated some of the most basic possibilities. "It must be the carburetor, because everything else is new" usually meant that they had not gapped the points properly, or had the wrong firing order. 37? years ago, it took me 3 weeks to get ink on paper with a serial printing terminal and a TRS80, because I made stupid assumptions because I thought that I had eliminated . . . and didn't even realize that there was a bad connection between the serial interface and the rest of the Expansion Interface. Why do you think that you have the right baud rate? It might be 9600, but if it was expecting a printing terminal, then it might be 300, 150, 134.5, 110, 75 In spite of "standardization" (everybody has a unique one of their own), sometimes you run into some handshaking using signals besides DSR, DTR, RTS, CTS. Such as CD (8), CD2 (12)!, RI(22) "misuse of the standard"? absolutely. (using db25 pinout - BTW, a DE9 is not a DB9. A real DB9 consists of a DB shell with 1 thru 8 and 20) It can be frustrating. There is at least one documented fatality from the frustration of serial cabling. Guy took a printer and computer to store to get it cabled; after 6 weeks without success, he shot the tech. Joe Campbell was sure that was an urban legend, so he tracked down the case, and mentioned it in one of his books. I don't intend to ever do it again; I'm getting rid of my ARC Data Tek 9600 DTS-1. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 5 12:07:01 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 10:07:01 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009601d1ef3b$c97c23c0$5c746b40$@bettercomputing.net> So here's a video I made of the terminal connected to my SWTPC. I set hyperterminal to 8, N, 1. As you can see there's no action with the reset button, but there is a random character on power up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvT_KYyRVWo I then tried 7 N 1 (that's how my CT1024 terminal is set up). This time I got more consistent characters. If I hit reset, there is also a response. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYitTyUUxFg From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 12:08:46 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 10:08:46 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> Message-ID: I'll be there. Flying down from Seattle after work with an Amiga 4000 060 and a GRiD in my carry-on. I wanted to bring a Symbolics machine, but they happen to be quite heavy. ;) On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:01 AM, william degnan wrote: > I am here now, will be around all day helping set up. I have not been to > the CHM since the last VCF...The space for the event looks good, tables are > out and waiting for exhibitors. > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Ali wrote: > > > > > > I am heading to VCF West after a stop over in San Fran today...I am > > > > looking forward to meeting up with everyone. I will be there all day > > > > Friday as a set-up volunteer, Sat and Sunday morning. I was at the > > > > last VCF before it was called "West" ... it's been too long. > > > > > > I am going to be there both days and look forward to meeting people In > > > Real Life (TM). So should the list members get special badges or > > something > > > so people can know who is who? Or *GASP* are we going to have to be > > > personable and talk to each other! :D > > > > > > -Ali > > > > > > > > I'll be there co-running the Living Computer Museum's exhibit. Stop by > and > > say hi! > > > > - Josh > > > > > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 12:14:17 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:14:17 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <009401d1ef3a$5173a4d0$f45aee70$@bettercomputing.net> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009401d1ef3a$5173a4d0$f45aee70$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: Here is a picture/thread about the wiring of the MP-S and cable comparing Teletype with RS232. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=174 Here is a thread I made, plus a special file I created for loading TSC BASIC http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=416 hope this helps. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 5 12:52:08 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 10:52:08 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <009301d1ef3a$2083b860$618b2920$@bettercomputing.net> References: <5D945B16-7404-493C-8FBE-6FF6FBDD389A@cs.ubc.ca> <009301d1ef3a$2083b860$618b2920$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <5A749D60-8631-499D-86B4-A3D0986BC5E7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Aug-05, at 9:55 AM, Brad H wrote: > > 3) Ah, this may be part of my problem. I don't quite understand memory > addressing yet. The instructions said you needed RAM at A000 if the 6810 > chip was disabled (which it appears to be, the correct trace is cut). My > machine has 4 RAM boards. 2 are MPM, 2 are 16K DRC boards. For whatever > reason, the DRC boards are config-ed to be first (0000-3FFF) and second > (4000-7FFF). Trying to strip the machine down and have as little RAM as I > could get away with, I just installed the single board at 0000-3FFF. These > boards are (thank god) socketed, so I have some means of testing and > removing RAM. The MP-M boards are not socketed, so I don't want to mess > with those until I have to. I could config the second DRC board for the > $Exxx-$Fxxx and shove it in there. Don't take my word on the specific address, I should have just said you need some RAM in high mem. The 6810 was there to fulfill that need of RAM for the xxxBUG monitor. You might reenable it, or config a RAM board to cover that range (A000? to ?). But if you use a RAM board you have to config it so it doesn't extend up into (overlap) the ROM and IO address space. (I have a memory map for this on another machine not set up at this time). (For purposes of exercising the xxxBUG monitors you don't need memory down at $0000.) From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 5 13:23:49 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 11:23:49 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: Okay thanks. ?I gues where I'm getting confused is Michael Holley's guide to new 6800 users says because of the 6810 being cut you want RAM at $A000.. what you're suggesting sounds like the opposite? ?Maybe I'd better reread those instructions. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Brent Hilpert Date: 2016-08-05 10:52 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 On 2016-Aug-05, at 9:55 AM, Brad H wrote: > > 3) Ah, this may be part of my problem.? I don't quite understand memory > addressing yet.? The instructions said you needed RAM at A000 if the 6810 > chip was disabled (which it appears to be, the correct trace is cut).? My > machine has 4 RAM boards.? 2 are MPM, 2 are 16K DRC boards.? For whatever > reason, the DRC boards are config-ed to be first (0000-3FFF) and second > (4000-7FFF).?? Trying to strip the machine down and have as little RAM as I > could get away with, I just installed the single board at 0000-3FFF.? These > boards are (thank god) socketed, so I have some means of testing and > removing RAM.? The MP-M boards are not socketed, so I don't want to mess > with those until I have to.? I could config the second DRC board for the > $Exxx-$Fxxx and shove it in there. Don't take my word on the specific address, I should have just said you need some RAM in high mem. The 6810 was there to fulfill that need of RAM for the xxxBUG monitor. You might reenable it, or config a RAM board to cover that range (A000? to ?). But if you use a RAM board you have to config it so it doesn't extend up into (overlap) the ROM and IO address space. (I have a memory map for this on another machine not set up at this time). (For purposes of exercising the xxxBUG monitors you don't need memory down at $0000.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 5 13:25:40 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <009601d1ef3b$c97c23c0$5c746b40$@bettercomputing.net> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009601d1ef3b$c97c23c0$5c746b40$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Aug 2016, Brad H wrote: > I then tried 7 N 1 (that's how my CT1024 terminal is set up). This time I > got more consistent characters. If I hit reset, there is also a response. If and when you get consistent characters, no matter how wrong, then it's time to look at the bit patterns of what you get V what you expect (is anybody around who knows?) Since, obviously, if consistent, then it might be right except for one or more bits stuck on or stuck off. Yes, it is frustrating. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 5 13:52:57 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 11:52:57 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: <29lc3nyhinjggol0qp8l0gcg.1470423177651@email.android.com> Yeah to be honest.. I'm not sure I'm the biggest serial terminal computer fan. ?I find them way harder to diagnose than computers with video cards. ?But, the SWTPC is an iconic system.. so I'll just keep muddling until I figure it out. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Fred Cisin Date: 2016-08-05 11:25 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 On Fri, 5 Aug 2016, Brad H wrote: > I then tried 7 N 1 (that's how my CT1024 terminal is set up).? This time I > got more consistent characters.? If I hit reset, there is also a response. If and when you get consistent characters, no matter how wrong, then it's time to look at the bit patterns of what you get V what you expect? (is anybody around who knows?) Since, obviously, if consistent, then it might be right except for one or more bits stuck on or stuck off. Yes, it is frustrating. From chrise at pobox.com Fri Aug 5 13:54:57 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:54:57 -0500 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160805185457.GM2132@n0jcf.net> On Friday (08/05/2016 at 11:23AM -0700), Brad H wrote: > > > Okay thanks. ?I gues where I'm getting confused is Michael Holley's guide to new 6800 users says because of the 6810 being cut you want RAM at $A000.. what you're suggesting sounds like the opposite? ?Maybe I'd better reread those instructions. MIKBUG and SWTBUG need the RAM at $A000 not $0000. RAM at $A000 was the original MEK6800-D1 reference design for which MIKBUG was invented and the MP-A is likely derived. As an aside, I have what I think is a kinda rare EXORBUS to SS-50 adapter that SWTPC may have made during development of the machine so that an MEK6800-D1 could be used as the CPU board on SS-50 bus. It is an interposer with 86-pin EXORBUS socket on the top and (5) 10-pin MOLEX on the bottom which mate to one of the SS-50 50-pin backplane locations. It has SWTPC logo on it so I don't think it was a third-party deal. Chris > -------- Original message -------- > From: Brent Hilpert > Date: 2016-08-05 10:52 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > On 2016-Aug-05, at 9:55 AM, Brad H wrote: > > > > 3) Ah, this may be part of my problem.? I don't quite understand memory > > addressing yet.? The instructions said you needed RAM at A000 if the 6810 > > chip was disabled (which it appears to be, the correct trace is cut).? My > > machine has 4 RAM boards.? 2 are MPM, 2 are 16K DRC boards.? For whatever > > reason, the DRC boards are config-ed to be first (0000-3FFF) and second > > (4000-7FFF).?? Trying to strip the machine down and have as little RAM as I > > could get away with, I just installed the single board at 0000-3FFF.? These > > boards are (thank god) socketed, so I have some means of testing and > > removing RAM.? The MP-M boards are not socketed, so I don't want to mess > > with those until I have to.? I could config the second DRC board for the > > $Exxx-$Fxxx and shove it in there. > > Don't take my word on the specific address, I should have just said you need some RAM in high mem. > The 6810 was there to fulfill that need of RAM for the xxxBUG monitor. > You might reenable it, or config a RAM board to cover that range (A000? to ?). > But if you use a RAM board you have to config it so it doesn't extend up into (overlap) the ROM and IO address space. > > (I have a memory map for this on another machine not set up at this time). > > (For purposes of exercising the xxxBUG monitors you don't need memory down at $0000.) > -- Chris Elmquist From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 13:50:45 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 18:50:45 +0000 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009601d1ef3b$c97c23c0$5c746b40$@bettercomputing.net>, Message-ID: > > I then tried 7 N 1 (that's how my CT1024 terminal is set up). This time I > > got more consistent characters. If I hit reset, there is also a response. > > If and when you get consistent characters, no matter how wrong, then it's > time to look at the bit patterns of what you get V what you expect (is > anybody around who knows?) > Since, obviously, if consistent, then it might be right except for one or > more bits stuck on or stuck off. > > Yes, it is frustrating. Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? I don't guess, I don't try things until it works. I make measurements and figure out how it must work. In this case, I would guess the serial chip is either a dumb UART (one of those 40 pin ones) or a 6850. Both have the advantage (here) of needing an external baud rate clock. So, stick a 'scope, frequency counter, LogicDart, whatever you use on the Transmit clock pin. Measure the frequency and remember that almost all serial chips need a 16* baud clock. So divide what you measure by 16, set that baud rate. Set 1 stop bit on the terminal. If the system sends 2, it won't matter. It's asynchronous, it's just an extra bit delay between characters. Try 8 bits, no parity. Most machines sent 8 bits, the high bit might be a parity bit. If some characters get through, others are corrupted into graphics-type things (extended character set) then work out if the high bit is being set on odd or even parity, and re-set the terminal to 7 data bits and the appropriate parity bit. If all else fails, stick a logic analyser on the Tx Data pin of the UART, trigger on the falling edge, and grab the bitstream as it comes out of the UART. See if you can make sense of it. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 5 13:57:00 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <009501d1ef3b$6c7e9900$457bcb00$@bettercomputing.net> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009501d1ef3b$6c7e9900$457bcb00$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Aug 2016, Brad H wrote: > I'm certain cabling is an issue here. I get a bit dyslexic with pins and > understanding how things change on a cable like a null modem. OK, I don't know what your level of knowledge is on it. Mine is NOT very high, so please don't be offended if I tell grandma how to suck eggs. I would have hoped that, expecting a terminal, it would be wired as DCE (Data Communications Equipment), and plug straight through to a DTE (Data Terminal Equipment). However, a PC is NOT expecting a terminal to be connected to it, and is wired DTE! (PC is a terminal expecting to connect to a modem, not something to connect a terminal to.) Therefore, ideally, the PC should connect straight through, with only software issues of baud-rate, parity, bits, stop bits, and software handshaking. That obviously is not the case, and rarely is. Oh, wouldn't it be great if it worked that easily. A null modem is for connecting two DTE terminals to each other. It connects the transmit of one side to the receive of the other, and often numerous hand-shaking signals, which are NOT really standardized. (RTS,CTS,DSR,DTR,CD) For example, if you want to connect a PC (DTE) to a printing terminal to use that as a printer, you need to cross TX and RX, and then mess with handshaking enough to get the PC to send characters when the printer is ready, and stop sending when the printer is not ready. Sometimes, that is done by connecting handshake lines so that the PC ALWAYS sees the printer as ready, and then just send the characters slowly enough that the printer can keep up. (typically 300 baud for daisy wheel, 150 or less for selectric). Sometimes stop bits can help, if things are close. They are usually wired symmetrically, but that doesn't always work. With full handshaking, that crosses TX and RX DTR and DSR RTS and CTS With partial handshaking, that may be TX and RX RTS and CTS DTR and CD+DSR sometimes: TX and RX DTR and DSR RTS and CTS+CD It is kinda essential to get or make a breakout box. 1) to be able to try different interconnects 2) to have LEDs showing you the state of the lines. Joe Campbell's "The RS232 Solution" is at a level that I can follow. 'course, there's always LUCK. I had an assistant, who, the very first time that he saw a serial printer, he reached into one of my bins of random cables; and it worked! From chrise at pobox.com Fri Aug 5 13:58:13 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:58:13 -0500 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009601d1ef3b$c97c23c0$5c746b40$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <20160805185813.GN2132@n0jcf.net> On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +0000), tony duell wrote: > > Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? No. ;-) -- Chris Elmquist From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 14:05:42 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 19:05:42 +0000 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <20160805185813.GN2132@n0jcf.net> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009601d1ef3b$c97c23c0$5c746b40$@bettercomputing.net> , <20160805185813.GN2132@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > > > Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? > > No. ;-) I should have been more specific and added something like 'even though I have plenty of classic computers with RS232 ports, serial terminals, serial printers, and so on' :-) -tony From chrise at pobox.com Fri Aug 5 14:20:07 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 14:20:07 -0500 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009601d1ef3b$c97c23c0$5c746b40$@bettercomputing.net> <20160805185813.GN2132@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20160805192007.GC1154@n0jcf.net> On Friday (08/05/2016 at 07:05PM +0000), tony duell wrote: > > > > > Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? > > > > No. ;-) > > I should have been more specific and added something like > 'even though I have plenty of classic computers with RS232 ports, > serial terminals, serial printers, and so on' :-) I have more trouble with USB... because all of the "issues" end up in a software space that's not easily explored or fixed. -- Chris Elmquist From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 5 14:40:19 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <20160805185813.GN2132@n0jcf.net> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009601d1ef3b$c97c23c0$5c746b40$@bettercomputing.net> <20160805185813.GN2132@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +0000), tony duell wrote: >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? On Fri, 5 Aug 2016, Chris Elmquist wrote: > No. ;-) OK, that's TWO. The rest of us are still struggling with our ignorance. Your explanation of baud-rate and bit numbere/parity was excellent, and would have really helpe me 37 years ago. But, it would not have solved the hassles that I had then with determining partial handshake connections, nor trying to connect an external serial Votrax to a TRS80 Model2. It wanted a connection on pin 22 (ring indicator)! I did it for the Radio Shack Computer Store, in their store. In return for which, they gave me a copy of the Model2 Technical Reference. Yes, I hung onto "Technical Reference" books even for machines that I did not own. I had access to more information than I understood. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wsudol at scng.com Fri Aug 5 12:34:49 2016 From: wsudol at scng.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 10:34:49 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <009501d1ef3b$6c7e9900$457bcb00$@bettercomputing.net> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009501d1ef3b$6c7e9900$457bcb00$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: Hi Brad. Troubleshooting baud rate and parity issues can be very frustrating. Might i suggest using an simple rs-232c breakout box to see what signals are being produced on the port? Check if the txd and rxd blink when you hit the carriage return on your pc? Then you'll know if the garbage seen is really a baud issue or just some noise that's put on the line when you power up the swtpc. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Brad H wrote: > I don't think I have the right baud rate at all... as I mentioned, my MSI > 6800 has a very well labelled serial card and I set it to whatever baud > rate > I was going for, set my terminal up and it wouldn't work. It was only by > accident that I discovered if I set the terminal to 9600 baud it worked. > Some of the other switches worked at the speeds labelled but I think 1200 > or > whatever was 9600. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if this thing was > modified beyond. I have the MP-S, and I have the previous owner's > handwritten sticker with the baud rates for each of the 5 DIP switches.. > and > so I've got it set at what should be 300, but I have tried other baud rates > up and down the line without success so far. Going up just produces longer > strings of random characters. Going down produces less. > > I am using a 25 pin femaile to 9 pin female null modem cable. The 9 pin > goes into my old Thinkpad 380 and the 25 pin I have jumpered. I followed > the guide here: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/HiTerm/MPS_to_DB25.pdf > > Now, I don't have a DB25 female connector I could solder wires to. So what > I did was, where required to loop pin 4 to 5, I just took some jumper wire, > and went from pin 4 to 5 on the female 25 pin (at the computer end), 6 to > 20, 6 to 8, and so on. You can get two jumper wire pins into a single > shaft > so the connections are all good. But maybe it doesn't work that way, I know > null modem cables are a bit different. In any event, wired as such, the > terminal got nothing from the computer at all. > > In the event, I ended up reducing to having the MP-S set up per the > instructions, and then just had the TX RX and ground connected from the > card > to the female connector. With that setup, I get a response, albeit > garbled. > I'm certain cabling is an issue here. I get a bit dyslexic with pins and > understanding how things change on a cable like a null modem. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred > Cisin > Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 8:52 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > but as with all problem solving, Conan Doyle had it right when he said > > "after eliminating the impossible, whatever is left, however > > improbable, must be the solution" > > That quote is often horribly abused. Diagnosis by elimination is > inherently > faulty. Beginners, and "experts", will often use it to justify ridiculous > premises, "because I eliminated everything else", while not having truly > eliminated some of the most basic possibilities. "It must be the > carburetor, because everything else is new" usually meant that they had not > gapped the points properly, or had the wrong firing order. > > 37? years ago, it took me 3 weeks to get ink on paper with a serial > printing > terminal and a TRS80, because I made stupid assumptions because I thought > that I had eliminated . . . > and didn't even realize that there was a bad connection between the serial > interface and the rest of the Expansion Interface. > > > Why do you think that you have the right baud rate? > It might be 9600, but if it was expecting a printing terminal, then it > might > be 300, 150, 134.5, 110, 75 > > In spite of "standardization" (everybody has a unique one of their own), > sometimes you run into some handshaking using signals besides DSR, DTR, > RTS, CTS. Such as CD (8), CD2 (12)!, RI(22) > "misuse of the standard"? absolutely. > (using db25 pinout - BTW, a DE9 is not a DB9. A real DB9 consists of a DB > shell with 1 thru 8 and 20) > > > It can be frustrating. There is at least one documented fatality from the > frustration of serial cabling. Guy took a printer and computer to store > to get it cabled; after 6 weeks without success, he shot the tech. Joe > Campbell was sure that was an urban legend, so he tracked down the case, > and > mentioned it in one of his books. > > > I don't intend to ever do it again; I'm getting rid of my ARC Data Tek > 9600 DTS-1. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Aug 5 12:45:19 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 10:45:19 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <009401d1ef3a$5173a4d0$f45aee70$@bettercomputing.net> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009401d1ef3a$5173a4d0$f45aee70$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: My 2cents Some of this may have been mentioned. Your going to need an oscilloscope, and a scope probe with a good ground. Your 'scope probe should be less than 15 pF. Anymore and the probe will start to filter out any high frequency noise. Is the supplies output grounded ?, If so that point is where you put your ground clip. Since this will be 90% of what you will find, I won't go into non grounded DC sources. Check what the output of your DC supplies looks like. The actual voltage and the amount of ripple (60/120 or 50/100 Hz noise) and other noise and what the ground at the exit of the supply looks like. Yes the ground. If your happy with no ground noise you can use that point for your ground clip. Lets assume you have boards that plug in to a backplane. With all the boards installed what do the supplies and again the ground(s) look like ? Have an extender ? For each board, look at where the boards ground passes to the backplane, if that point looks good, then you can move your probes ground to that location. Now do the same thing, if just a 2 layer board look at the ground pins on various devices, starting with the 'big' chips, then bus drivers, etc. Basically the devices that swing a lot of current. Unique for memory boards. do the same for every device. Is the ground and power pin clean ? One reason to look at every device is there maybe a defective decoupling cap. Or sadly not enough of them. If the board is only 2 layers and there is not a cap for each and every memory chip the fun beings. To keep things short, if the supply lines do not looks clean, your going to be wasting a lot of time. What is clean, there is not short answer, think about < 50-100 mV on every chip, specially memory devices. Even the 'big boys' that should have know better designed and shipped a lot of hardware that totally sucked. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Brad H wrote: > RAM could certainly be an issue. I had *tons* of bad RAM dogging me with > my Digital Group Z80. That took two weeks of testing to get through it. I > might just test out all this RAM in the DRC boards first and see if I can > get away with just using those rather than bringing the soldered MP-M > boards into the mix right now. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade > Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 2:42 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad > > H > > Sent: 05 August 2016 07:46 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > > > > > > Yes.. I tried 7 bits.. different parity settings, speeds etc. > > Couldn't quite nail it down. In every tutorial online for the 6800 > > being used with PC terminal, they go 8 N 1.. nobody mentions > > specifically if you are supposed to use hardware or xo/off or nothing > > though. So that's another thing. I'm also confused because some docs > mention baud rate settings for the cpu board? > > I'm also not sure if bad RAM or bad TTL etc could be contributing to > > just throwing out random junk too. > > > > If the data received is inconstant then bad RAM is a likely cause, ROM > usually fails consistanly. > > but as with all problem solving, Conan Doyle had it right when he said > "after eliminating the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, > must be the solution" > > Dave > > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Dave Wade > > Date: 2016-08-04 11:33 PM (GMT-08:00) > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > > "Random Stuff" on serial ports can be a speed, data-bits, or even > > parity mis- match. > > I assume you have tried tweaking these? > > > > Dave > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > > Brad H > > > Sent: 05 August 2016 06:58 > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > > > > I think this 6800 is live but I am being dogged by my inabilities > > > when it > > comes > > > to cabling. I'm going to purchase a 'proper' db25 female connector > > > and > > the > > > molex pins for the MP-S connector and solder it up. I tried sort of > > > using jumper wires to make it go. When I turn the 6800 on, the PC > > > terminal I'm using reacts by producing single or strings of random > > characters. > > > According to the SWTPC 'system checkout' stuff, if I get anything at > > > all showing up on the terminal it usually means the 6800 is alive. > > > Based on > > the > > > notes written on the MP-S, I'm confident I have the correct baud > > > rate and > > bit > > > (8) and parity (1) settings, but alas, doesn't seem to work. When I > > > ran > > into > > > this sort of thing with MSI 6800 it turned out the baud rate switch > > > on the serial card wasn't correct, despite factory labelling. That > > > might be the > > case > > > here but not really sure how to sort it. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > > Paul > > Birkel > > > Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 12:29 PM > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > > > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > > > > > > > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Aug 5 15:42:50 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 16:42:50 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II update Message-ID: <61f2fc88-c849-5c39-ebd9-8fd995d71350@comcast.net> Progress on getting the MVII up and running: I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it as the system disk on the MVII. The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 7.3 iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to a 512 byte sector CD. I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and was told yes they were. We'll see about that. The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get the old Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A. How can I create an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an emulator? I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI cable, I had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07. Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask because of the disk size limit under RT-11. Doug From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 15:48:36 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (derschjo at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 13:48:36 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II update In-Reply-To: <61f2fc88-c849-5c39-ebd9-8fd995d71350@comcast.net> References: <61f2fc88-c849-5c39-ebd9-8fd995d71350@comcast.net> Message-ID: <813676F2-2E8D-46E3-B8EA-44BD041E1219@gmail.com> > On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > Progress on getting the MVII up and running: > > I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it as the system disk on the MVII. > > The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 7.3 iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to a 512 byte sector CD. Burn it to a CD. Shouldn't be anything complex here. > > I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and was told yes they were. We'll see about that. > > The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get the old Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A. How can I create an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an emulator? > > I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI cable, I had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07 Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate up to 4 SCSI devices at one go. No need to futz with a real drive if you don't want to... Josh > > Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask because of the disk size limit under RT-11. > > Doug > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 5 16:15:43 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 14:15:43 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009501d1ef3b$6c7e9900$457bcb00$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <00b501d1ef5e$87be6060$973b2120$@bettercomputing.net> I think I will have to figure out how to do that. Additionally I have one of those PC based oscilloscopes on the way. I don't know how to use them 100% but I'm about to learn I guess. :) I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 terminals and would really like this system to work with one of those. However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers. I'm a bit reluctant to try pulling them apart to get in there and fix that. Is there a way to change the parity, etc settings on the SWTPC to match the terminal? Is it necessary? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Sudol Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 10:35 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 Hi Brad. Troubleshooting baud rate and parity issues can be very frustrating. Might i suggest using an simple rs-232c breakout box to see what signals are being produced on the port? Check if the txd and rxd blink when you hit the carriage return on your pc? Then you'll know if the garbage seen is really a baud issue or just some noise that's put on the line when you power up the swtpc. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Brad H wrote: > I don't think I have the right baud rate at all... as I mentioned, my > MSI > 6800 has a very well labelled serial card and I set it to whatever > baud rate I was going for, set my terminal up and it wouldn't work. > It was only by accident that I discovered if I set the terminal to > 9600 baud it worked. > Some of the other switches worked at the speeds labelled but I think > 1200 or whatever was 9600. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if this > thing was modified beyond. I have the MP-S, and I have the previous > owner's handwritten sticker with the baud rates for each of the 5 DIP > switches.. > and > so I've got it set at what should be 300, but I have tried other baud > rates up and down the line without success so far. Going up just > produces longer strings of random characters. Going down produces less. > > I am using a 25 pin femaile to 9 pin female null modem cable. The 9 > pin goes into my old Thinkpad 380 and the 25 pin I have jumpered. I > followed the guide here: > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/HiTerm/MPS_to_DB25.pdf > > Now, I don't have a DB25 female connector I could solder wires to. So > what I did was, where required to loop pin 4 to 5, I just took some > jumper wire, and went from pin 4 to 5 on the female 25 pin (at the > computer end), 6 to 20, 6 to 8, and so on. You can get two jumper > wire pins into a single shaft so the connections are all good. But > maybe it doesn't work that way, I know null modem cables are a bit > different. In any event, wired as such, the terminal got nothing from > the computer at all. > > In the event, I ended up reducing to having the MP-S set up per the > instructions, and then just had the TX RX and ground connected from > the card to the female connector. With that setup, I get a response, > albeit garbled. > I'm certain cabling is an issue here. I get a bit dyslexic with pins > and understanding how things change on a cable like a null modem. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred > Cisin > Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 8:52 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 > > > but as with all problem solving, Conan Doyle had it right when he > > said "after eliminating the impossible, whatever is left, however > > improbable, must be the solution" > > That quote is often horribly abused. Diagnosis by elimination is > inherently faulty. Beginners, and "experts", will often use it to > justify ridiculous premises, "because I eliminated everything else", > while not having truly eliminated some of the most basic > possibilities. "It must be the carburetor, because everything else is > new" usually meant that they had not gapped the points properly, or > had the wrong firing order. > > 37? years ago, it took me 3 weeks to get ink on paper with a serial > printing terminal and a TRS80, because I made stupid assumptions > because I thought that I had eliminated . . . > and didn't even realize that there was a bad connection between the > serial interface and the rest of the Expansion Interface. > > > Why do you think that you have the right baud rate? > It might be 9600, but if it was expecting a printing terminal, then it > might be 300, 150, 134.5, 110, 75 > > In spite of "standardization" (everybody has a unique one of their > own), sometimes you run into some handshaking using signals besides DSR, DTR, > RTS, CTS. Such as CD (8), CD2 (12)!, RI(22) > "misuse of the standard"? absolutely. > (using db25 pinout - BTW, a DE9 is not a DB9. A real DB9 consists of > a DB shell with 1 thru 8 and 20) > > > It can be frustrating. There is at least one documented fatality from the > frustration of serial cabling. Guy took a printer and computer to store > to get it cabled; after 6 weeks without success, he shot the tech. > Joe Campbell was sure that was an urban legend, so he tracked down the > case, and mentioned it in one of his books. > > > I don't intend to ever do it again; I'm getting rid of my ARC Data Tek > 9600 DTS-1. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 17:03:54 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 15:03:54 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> Message-ID: <681B0202-32CE-4277-8D57-18B9CFF0E57B@gmail.com> I'll be there with some of my HP equipment. On my way there soon. Marc Sent from my iPad > On Aug 5, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > > I'll be there. Flying down from Seattle after work with an Amiga 4000 060 > and a GRiD in my carry-on. > I wanted to bring a Symbolics machine, but they happen to be quite heavy. ;) > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:01 AM, william degnan > wrote: > >> I am here now, will be around all day helping set up. I have not been to >> the CHM since the last VCF...The space for the event looks good, tables are >> out and waiting for exhibitors. >> >>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Ali wrote: >>> >>>>> I am heading to VCF West after a stop over in San Fran today...I am >>>>> looking forward to meeting up with everyone. I will be there all day >>>>> Friday as a set-up volunteer, Sat and Sunday morning. I was at the >>>>> last VCF before it was called "West" ... it's been too long. >>>> >>>> I am going to be there both days and look forward to meeting people In >>>> Real Life (TM). So should the list members get special badges or >>> something >>>> so people can know who is who? Or *GASP* are we going to have to be >>>> personable and talk to each other! :D >>>> >>>> -Ali >>> I'll be there co-running the Living Computer Museum's exhibit. Stop by >> and >>> say hi! >>> >>> - Josh >> >> >> >> -- >> @ BillDeg: >> Web: vintagecomputer.net >> Twitter: @billdeg >> Youtube: @billdeg >> Unauthorized Bio > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From jsw at ieee.org Fri Aug 5 17:18:29 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 17:18:29 -0500 Subject: MicroVax II update In-Reply-To: <813676F2-2E8D-46E3-B8EA-44BD041E1219@gmail.com> References: <61f2fc88-c849-5c39-ebd9-8fd995d71350@comcast.net> <813676F2-2E8D-46E3-B8EA-44BD041E1219@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41EB6FCF-D921-44C8-99F1-A3BF596CEA32@ieee.org> On Aug 5, 2016, at 3:48 PM, derschjo at gmail.com wrote: > >> On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: >> >> Progress on getting the MVII up and running: >> >> I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it as the system disk on the MVII. >> >> The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 7.3 iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to a 512 byte sector CD. > > Burn it to a CD. Shouldn't be anything complex here. > >> >> I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and was told yes they were. We'll see about that. Yes - I have used the same PAK on 5.5 and 7.3. >> >> The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get the old Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A. How can I create an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an emulator? >> >> I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI cable, I had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07 > > Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate up to 4 SCSI devices at one go. No need to futz with a real drive if you don't want to... > >> >> Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask because of the disk size limit under RT-11.? Yes. It works well with the later versions of RT11 V5.5-5.7. There are DU Handlers (MSCP) that allow a large disk to be partitioned (in the handler) into multiple drives I?ve used up to 7 in RT and 20+ in TSX+ drives at the same time. Each drive is still limited to 32Mb per partition, but you can manage up to 255 partitions (~8GB). Jerry From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 5 17:55:56 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 15:55:56 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <00b501d1ef5e$87be6060$973b2120$@bettercomputing.net> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009501d1ef3b$6c7e9900$457bcb00$@bettercomputing.net> <00b501d1ef5e$87be6060$973b2120$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <623416ed-f086-1291-0c37-9058a7a927de@sydex.com> On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: > I think I will have to figure out how to do that. Additionally I > have one of those PC based oscilloscopes on the way. I don't know > how to use them 100% but I'm about to learn I guess. :) > > I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 > terminals and would really like this system to work with one of > those. However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I > think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers. I'm a bit > reluctant to try pulling them apart to get in there and fix that. Is > there a way to change the parity, etc settings on the SWTPC to match > the terminal? Is it necessary? Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so much for video terminals. But you'll have to change the hardwired jumpers--the UART used in the CT1024 is not software-programmable. If this were my unit, I"d probably solder some pins into the pad holes and then either use slide on jumpers or wirewrap to set the characteristics. That way, when changing things around, you won't be stressing the PCB. Something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-20CFemale-to-Female-1-Pin-Plug-Jumper-Cable-Wires-Multicolor-K-/262158878688?hash=item3d09e307e0:g:B-MAAOSwwE5WVLR6 Search on "female jumper wires" --Chuck From ball.of.john at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 18:23:00 2016 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 16:23:00 -0700 Subject: [IBM1130] 029 keypunch available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Make this yet another person as well in BC who would be jumping on it . I got almost no use for a card reader if I have no way to punch the cards. >Ditto. I'd be all over that if I wasn't in BC. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 5 18:38:09 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 16:38:09 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? Message-ID: <4s4mffn8ye9ap4ob6ria28xj.1470440289379@email.android.com> Is anyone shooting video for those of us that can't go? ?I really enjoyed the videos of VCF East I found on Youtube. ?I'll likely never get to one of these things being up here in Canada.. still fun to check out virtually. Brad Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Curious Marc Date: 2016-08-05 3:03 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: VCF West - going? I'll be there with some of my HP equipment. On my way there soon. Marc Sent from my iPad > On Aug 5, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > > I'll be there. Flying down from Seattle after work with an Amiga 4000 060 > and a GRiD in my carry-on. > I wanted to bring a Symbolics machine, but they happen to be quite heavy. ;) > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:01 AM, william degnan > wrote: > >> I am here now, will be around all day helping set up.? I have not been to >> the CHM since the last VCF...The space for the event looks good, tables are >> out and waiting for exhibitors. >> >>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Ali wrote: >>> >>>>> I am heading to VCF West after a stop over in San Fran today...I am >>>>> looking forward to meeting up with everyone.? I will be there all day >>>>> Friday as a set-up volunteer, Sat and Sunday morning.? I was at the >>>>> last VCF before it was called "West" ... it's been too long. >>>> >>>> I am going to be there both days and look forward to meeting people In >>>> Real Life (TM). So should the list members get special badges or >>> something >>>> so people can know who is who? Or *GASP* are we going to have to be >>>> personable and talk to each other! :D >>>> >>>> -Ali >>> I'll be there co-running the Living Computer Museum's exhibit.? Stop by >> and >>> say hi! >>> >>> - Josh >> >> >> >> -- >> @ BillDeg: >> Web: vintagecomputer.net >> Twitter: @billdeg >> Youtube: @billdeg >> Unauthorized Bio > > > > -- >?? Ian Finder >?? (206) 395-MIPS >?? ian.finder at gmail.com From seefriek at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 21:03:38 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 22:03:38 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3b2, IBM RT, others Message-ID: I'd really like the AT&T 4425 terminal, which doesn't seem to have been claimed. I spent a couple of years with one on my desk. Any chance they'd ship? My wife and I have an agreement that if I bring home any more VME kit I have to get rid of an equivalent tonnage of other things. So unless that Motorola tower is an 88200 or something suitable esoteric, I probably need to pass. The E&S box looks like a Sun 3/110 or 4/110 with additional boards. I'd love to have one. Obviously, I would have killed for the Explorer or the RTs. Double kill for the 5620. Good they've found homes. KJ From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Aug 5 21:44:01 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 22:44:01 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II update In-Reply-To: <813676F2-2E8D-46E3-B8EA-44BD041E1219@gmail.com> References: <61f2fc88-c849-5c39-ebd9-8fd995d71350@comcast.net> <813676F2-2E8D-46E3-B8EA-44BD041E1219@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/5/2016 4:48 PM, derschjo at gmail.com wrote: > >> On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: >> >> Progress on getting the MVII up and running: >> >> I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it as the system disk on the MVII. >> >> The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 7.3 iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to a 512 byte sector CD. > Burn it to a CD. Shouldn't be anything complex here. I was able to expand the compressed file using 7-Zip and generate the iso image. However, when I tried to burn the iso to a CD Win7 reported that 'The selected disk image file is not valid'. Not sure what all that means, but anyway VMS can't handle a CD with 2048 block size so I stopped fooling around with that. > >> I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and was told yes they were. We'll see about that. >> >> The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get the old Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A. How can I create an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an emulator? >> >> I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI cable, I had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07 > Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate up to 4 SCSI devices at one go. No need to futz with a real drive if you don't want to... > > Josh Yes, I believe that is the way to proceed. Let the SCSI2SD be a couple of drives, one for installing the software onto and another to contain the installation CD image. At this point it is kind of a 'chicken and the egg' thing for me, the only scsi interface I have is on the VAX. I don't have one on the PC where the VMS image is, so I'm perplexed as to how I get the software installation CD onto the SCSI2SD SD card. > >> Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask because of the disk size limit under RT-11. >> >> Doug >> From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Fri Aug 5 22:24:21 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 23:24:21 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II update In-Reply-To: <41EB6FCF-D921-44C8-99F1-A3BF596CEA32@ieee.org> References: <61f2fc88-c849-5c39-ebd9-8fd995d71350@comcast.net> <813676F2-2E8D-46E3-B8EA-44BD041E1219@gmail.com> <41EB6FCF-D921-44C8-99F1-A3BF596CEA32@ieee.org> Message-ID: <360cf811-eda3-644e-2d4f-ea2b8377e91d@verizon.net> On 8/5/2016 6:18 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > On Aug 5, 2016, at 3:48 PM, derschjo at gmail.com wrote: >>> On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: >>> >>> Progress on getting the MVII up and running: >>> >>> I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it as the system disk on the MVII. >>> >>> The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 7.3 iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to a 512 byte sector CD. >> Burn it to a CD. Shouldn't be anything complex here. >> >>> I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and was told yes they were. We'll see about that. > Yes - I have used the same PAK on 5.5 and 7.3. > >>> The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get the old Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A. How can I create an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an emulator? >>> >>> I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI cable, I had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07 >> Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate up to 4 SCSI devices at one go. No need to futz with a real drive if you don't want to... >> >>> Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask because of the disk size limit under RT-11.? > Yes. It works well with the later versions of RT11 V5.5-5.7. There are DU Handlers (MSCP) that allow a large disk to be partitioned (in the handler) into multiple drives I?ve used up to 7 in RT and 20+ in TSX+ drives at the same time. Each drive is still limited to 32Mb per partition, but you can manage up to 255 partitions (~8GB). > > Jerry > > Jerry; I am starting to read about the SCSI2SD and it will be very useful to have it emulate multiple drives, I am thinking of one hard disk and up to 3 CDROMs, one each for 5.5, 7.2 and 7.3. If I want to use one of the SCSI id's for an image of a VMS installation CD do I make its size exactly match the size of the iso image (534MB for 7.3)? My problem is that the only computer with a SCSI interface in my possession is the VAX (and microPDP11), so I will be forced to install from an actual CD. This isn't that bad though, I installed 7.2 about 12 years ago on the VAX 4000 that I have. About RT-11, I had 5.4 and it allowed you to use multiple 32MB partitions, when I finish with the VAX I will start on the microPDP11. I was just curious if you could use the SCSI2SD adapter with RT-11, it looks like I can, thanks. I am at a loss to figure out how to get data onto the SD card partitions outside of VMS, will simh recognize the partitions? Doug From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 22:40:27 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 20:40:27 -0700 Subject: MicroVax II update In-Reply-To: References: <61f2fc88-c849-5c39-ebd9-8fd995d71350@comcast.net> <813676F2-2E8D-46E3-B8EA-44BD041E1219@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > On 8/5/2016 4:48 PM, derschjo at gmail.com wrote: > >> >> On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor >>> wrote: >>> >>> Progress on getting the MVII up and running: >>> >>> I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it >>> as the system disk on the MVII. >>> >>> The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS >>> 7.3 iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to >>> a 512 byte sector CD. >>> >> Burn it to a CD. Shouldn't be anything complex here. >> > I was able to expand the compressed file using 7-Zip and generate the iso > image. However, when I tried to burn the iso to a CD Win7 reported that > 'The selected disk image file is not valid'. Not sure what all that means, > but anyway VMS can't handle a CD with 2048 block size so I stopped fooling > around with that. The built-in ISO burning support in Win7 is garbage, use something like ImgBurn or the like to do the job. > > >> I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and >>> was told yes they were. We'll see about that. >>> >>> The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get >>> the old Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A. How can >>> I create an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an >>> emulator? >>> >>> I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI >>> cable, I had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07 >>> >> Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate >> up to 4 SCSI devices at one go. No need to futz with a real drive if you >> don't want to... >> >> Josh >> > Yes, I believe that is the way to proceed. Let the SCSI2SD be a couple of > drives, one for installing the software onto and another to contain the > installation CD image. At this point it is kind of a 'chicken and the egg' > thing for me, the only scsi interface I have is on the VAX. I don't have > one on the PC where the VMS image is, so I'm perplexed as to how I get the > software installation CD onto the SCSI2SD SD card. You can do it pretty easily if you have an SD card reader in your PC -- what I'd do is DD the image onto the SD card starting at block zero (there are numerous dd-like tools for windows for doing this sort of thing). Then configure the SCSI2SD to present the first N sectors of the SD card (where N is the number of 512-byte sectors in the CD image) as a CD-ROM, and use the rest of the SD card for disks. - Josh > > >> Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask >>> because of the disk size limit under RT-11. >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 22:47:34 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 03:47:34 +0000 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: <047e01d1e909$955072f0$bff158d0$@com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160728182216.03e1c190@juno.com> , Message-ID: I've been restoring a HeathKit capacitor checker. I also have a couple HP counters with Nixies. I even have a 10 channel printer ( need to repair the roller ). I've found that one doesn't need the expensive ink roller ( though I'd love to have one, used or not ). I use the two layer impact paper. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ian S. King Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 3:46:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: the value of old test and repair equipment I really like my old test gear and yes, it just seems right to be restoring vintage computers with vintage instruments. HP scopes, logic analyzers, DVMs; function generator; Tek scope, frequency counter; as well as just 'sundry'. But I did break down and buy a DDS frequency generator to work on my VHF/UHF ham gear. On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:07 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > In fact, the value of old test gear varies tremendously.. > > Vacuum tube testers of certain makes & models are near the top of the food > chain, with clean, working examples pulling $1500+ (USD) on a very regular > basis. > > There's also a strong following for much 'classic' audio analysis gear (HD > meters, ID meters, spectrum analyzers, etc.) some very fine multi-meters > and anything really hi-end like General Radio, Breull & Kejjr, HP, and so > forth. > > Some very early examples from the 1910s to 30's also pull good value simply > for visual appeal. Much of this gear is resplendent with embossed, enameled > panels, sculpted Bakelite knobs, large meter movements and an overall Art > Deco styling. > > Seen a nice Supreme Diagnometer recently? Or any of the 40s-70s era English > made tube testers, like the AVO? Hickok also made a series of bench VTVMs > with massive chromed meters, designed to be large enough that they can be > read from many feet away.. those are beautiful for display, and guess what > - they work great, too! > > On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > > > At 03:52 PM 7/28/2016, Electronics Plus wrote: > > > > >... does as-is old test and repair equip that won't be particularly > cheap > > have interest to you guys? > > > > It depends entirely on the make and model of equipment. I always have a > > laundry list of stuff I am looking for - one of the reasons why I bring > my > > tablet to meets. > > > > Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > > > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 5 22:56:06 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 03:56:06 +0000 Subject: How to get a Heathkit H8 to work with a serial terminal In-Reply-To: <05e001d1ec59$62e081e0$28a185a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: , <05e001d1ec59$62e081e0$28a185a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Note that the combo card does not work reliably above 4800 baud. It feeds the serial through an optical isolator, even when doing RS232. It is really intended to do current loop at lower speeds. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Sudbrink Sent: Monday, August 1, 2016 6:01:21 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: How to get a Heathkit H8 to work with a serial terminal Try in the SEBHC group: sebhc at googlegroups.com From jsw at ieee.org Fri Aug 5 23:05:08 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 23:05:08 -0500 Subject: MicroVax II update In-Reply-To: <360cf811-eda3-644e-2d4f-ea2b8377e91d@verizon.net> References: <61f2fc88-c849-5c39-ebd9-8fd995d71350@comcast.net> <813676F2-2E8D-46E3-B8EA-44BD041E1219@gmail.com> <41EB6FCF-D921-44C8-99F1-A3BF596CEA32@ieee.org> <360cf811-eda3-644e-2d4f-ea2b8377e91d@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0B751E0C-46FD-4200-80E2-EE10C931A12F@ieee.org> > On Aug 5, 2016, at 10:24 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > On 8/5/2016 6:18 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: >> On Aug 5, 2016, at 3:48 PM, derschjo at gmail.com wrote: >>>> On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: >>>> >>>> Progress on getting the MVII up and running: >>>> >>>> I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it as the system disk on the MVII. >>>> >>>> The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 7.3 iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to a 512 byte sector CD. >>> Burn it to a CD. Shouldn't be anything complex here. >>> >>>> I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and was told yes they were. We'll see about that. >> Yes - I have used the same PAK on 5.5 and 7.3. >> >>>> The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get the old Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A. How can I create an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an emulator? >>>> >>>> I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI cable, I had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07 >>> Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate up to 4 SCSI devices at one go. No need to futz with a real drive if you don't want to... >>> >>>> Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask because of the disk size limit under RT-11.? >> Yes. It works well with the later versions of RT11 V5.5-5.7. There are DU Handlers (MSCP) that allow a large disk to be partitioned (in the handler) into multiple drives I?ve used up to 7 in RT and 20+ in TSX+ drives at the same time. Each drive is still limited to 32Mb per partition, but you can manage up to 255 partitions (~8GB). >> > Jerry; > > I am starting to read about the SCSI2SD and it will be very useful to have it emulate multiple drives, I am thinking of one hard disk and up to 3 CDROMs, one each for 5.5, 7.2 and 7.3. If I want to use one of the SCSI id's for an image of a VMS installation CD do I make its size exactly match the size of the iso image (534MB for 7.3)? > I haven?t used the SCSI2SD to emulate a CDROM, so I gladly defer to others to who have done it. Your basic approach makes sense to me. Just write the image directly to the blocks on a SD that match the starting offset for the partition you use in SCSI2SD and leave the blocksize as 512. I used DD on Linux or OSX and its easily to pipe images on and off the SD. For Windows YMMV. In my case I used a OSX to burn the VMS 7.3 iso to a CDROM. Then I booted it on a Microvax 3100 and built a system. From there I netbooted the MicroVax II. Since then I also was have moved and booted the same SD images on the Microvax 3100, MV II and MV III using a UC07 (no SD partitions). If you can attach the SCSI2CD to the your VAX4000 Qbus, you can try the same. I don?t think the KFQSA will work however. > My problem is that the only computer with a SCSI interface in my possession is the VAX (and microPDP11), so I will be forced to install from an actual CD. This isn't that bad though, I installed 7.2 about 12 years ago on the VAX 4000 that I have. > > About RT-11, I had 5.4 and it allowed you to use multiple 32MB partitions, when I finish with the VAX I will start on the microPDP11. I was just curious if you could use the SCSI2SD adapter with RT-11, it looks like I can, thanks. > SCSI2SD works fine with RT11 and my UC07. > I am at a loss to figure out how to get data onto the SD card partitions outside of VMS, will simh recognize the partitions? You can probably install cygwin on your Windows machine It has dd and other byte banging tools to facilitate the transfer. Alternately boot a Linux CDROM. The SD card itself knows not of the partitions. This geometry is stored in the SCSI2SD. Jerry From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 23:55:27 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 23:55:27 -0500 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: <047e01d1e909$955072f0$bff158d0$@com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160728182216.03e1c190@juno.com> Message-ID: "I've been restoring a HeathKit capacitor checker." Which one, the IT-28? Those are really handy for finding leakage in high-voltage caps, as they have a crazy-high (like 600V ?) power supply. Unlike modern SS units, the IT-28 can test at practical working voltages. There's data out there on how to finely calibrate those units, but I don't see much point in it.. It's a lot of fiddly work and for what - to have the best 40-year-old LCR meter? If you want a better than ballpark measure of L or C, get one of the cheap uC-based swiss knife testers. A set of 1% metal film resistors are cheap, though, and will improve stability. If you ever feel the need to do semi-precision work with a device like the IT-28, you're best off running it as a comparator and keeping a set of precision value caps for reference. In that case, you only need to make sure you have well matched resistor pairs in the bridge circuit. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:47 PM, dwight wrote: > I've been restoring a HeathKit capacitor checker. > > I also have a couple HP counters with Nixies. > > I even have a 10 channel printer ( need to repair the > > roller ). I've found that one doesn't need the expensive > > ink roller ( though I'd love to have one, used or not ). > > I use the two layer impact paper. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Ian S. King < > isking at uw.edu> > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 3:46:13 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: the value of old test and repair equipment > > I really like my old test gear and yes, it just seems right to be restoring > vintage computers with vintage instruments. HP scopes, logic analyzers, > DVMs; function generator; Tek scope, frequency counter; as well as just > 'sundry'. But I did break down and buy a DDS frequency generator to work > on my VHF/UHF ham gear. > > On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:07 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > > In fact, the value of old test gear varies tremendously.. > > > > Vacuum tube testers of certain makes & models are near the top of the > food > > chain, with clean, working examples pulling $1500+ (USD) on a very > regular > > basis. > > > > There's also a strong following for much 'classic' audio analysis gear > (HD > > meters, ID meters, spectrum analyzers, etc.) some very fine multi-meters > > and anything really hi-end like General Radio, Breull & Kejjr, HP, and so > > forth. > > > > Some very early examples from the 1910s to 30's also pull good value > simply > > for visual appeal. Much of this gear is resplendent with embossed, > enameled > > panels, sculpted Bakelite knobs, large meter movements and an overall Art > > Deco styling. > > > > Seen a nice Supreme Diagnometer recently? Or any of the 40s-70s era > English > > made tube testers, like the AVO? Hickok also made a series of bench VTVMs > > with massive chromed meters, designed to be large enough that they can be > > read from many feet away.. those are beautiful for display, and guess > what > > - they work great, too! > > > > On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Dale H. Cook > wrote: > > > > > At 03:52 PM 7/28/2016, Electronics Plus wrote: > > > > > > >... does as-is old test and repair equip that won't be particularly > > cheap > > > have interest to you guys? > > > > > > It depends entirely on the make and model of equipment. I always have a > > > laundry list of stuff I am looking for - one of the reasons why I bring > > my > > > tablet to meets. > > > > > > Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > > > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 00:19:01 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 23:19:01 -0600 Subject: IBM Diskette OEM Information manuals wanted Message-ID: Does anyone happen to have the IBM Diskette OEM Information manuals: GA21-9190 one-sided GA21-9257 two-sided I'm specifically NOT looking for the Diskette General Information Manual, GA21-9182, unless someone has an edition earlier than Fourth or later than Sixth. The OEM Information manuals were the definitive reference for the track formats for eight-inch diskettes. Generally equivalent information is available from a lot of later sources, including ECMA, ISO, and ANSI standards, and from vendor datasheets and application notes for floppy drives and floppy disk controller chips, though I've encountered a number of inaccuracies in vendor documentation. The ECMA standards are available online. I'm interested in the IBM OEM information manuals primarily for historical reasons, not because I'm missing any particular technical information. Thanks! Eric From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Aug 6 00:23:02 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2016 22:23:02 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: Okay so.. I decided to try the MP-C board out, just for kicks. ?No change. Then I decided to add one of the RAM boards.. the next one up in addresses. ?Got a little bit when I powered on. ?Added one of the old MPM boards.. one that has memory chips all piggybacked on one another. ?Now when I powered up, the system was sending four or five characters at a time, linefeed, four or five characters at a time, linefeed ad infinitum. ?I added the final MPM board.. zero. So.. I think we do have some ram problems.. most likely. ?I'm thinking it would be easiest to concentrate efforts on the socketed RAM boards.. test all the RAM out. ?I'm going to read up on addressing and try to understand a bit better what is going on. ?I'm thinking maybe I need to reconfigure the addressing on one of the boards to match whatever that overstuffed MPM board is set to. Until I get an oscilloscope.. fooling around is about all I can do here. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Chuck Guzis Date: 2016-08-05 3:55 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: > I think I will have to figure out how to do that.? Additionally I > have one of those PC based oscilloscopes on the way.? I don't know > how to use them 100% but I'm about to learn I guess. :) > > I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 > terminals and would really like this system to work with one of > those.? However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I > think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers.? I'm a bit > reluctant to try pulling them apart to get in there and fix that.? Is > there a way to change the parity, etc settings on the SWTPC to match > the terminal?? Is it necessary? Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so much for video terminals.?? But you'll have to change the hardwired jumpers--the UART used in the CT1024 is not software-programmable. If this were my unit, I"d probably solder some pins into the pad holes and then either use slide on jumpers or wirewrap to set the characteristics.? That way, when changing things around, you won't be stressing the PCB. Something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-20CFemale-to-Female-1-Pin-Plug-Jumper-Cable-Wires-Multicolor-K-/262158878688?hash=item3d09e307e0:g:B-MAAOSwwE5WVLR6 Search on "female jumper wires" --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 6 00:47:05 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 22:47:05 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49CC42C2-1F2F-4601-9ED0-582A6D726F5A@cs.ubc.ca> Do you have some RAM at $A000+ yet? That's all that should matter as far as required RAM goes. Presuming this is the holley page you were referring to: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/HiTerm/Test6800_Index.html he does mention RAM needed at A000 for the BUGs, as Chris and I have been saying. Without RAM there there's no stack for return addresses for subroutines executed in the BUGs, so execution could head off to wherever. On 2016-Aug-05, at 10:23 PM, Brad H wrote: > Okay so.. I decided to try the MP-C board out, just for kicks. No change. > Then I decided to add one of the RAM boards.. the next one up in addresses. Got a little bit when I powered on. Added one of the old MPM boards.. one that has memory chips all piggybacked on one another. Now when I powered up, the system was sending four or five characters at a time, linefeed, four or five characters at a time, linefeed ad infinitum. I added the final MPM board.. zero. > So.. I think we do have some ram problems.. most likely. I'm thinking it would be easiest to concentrate efforts on the socketed RAM boards.. test all the RAM out. I'm going to read up on addressing and try to understand a bit better what is going on. I'm thinking maybe I need to reconfigure the addressing on one of the boards to match whatever that overstuffed MPM board is set to. > Until I get an oscilloscope.. fooling around is about all I can do here. > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chuck Guzis > Date: 2016-08-05 3:55 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: >> I think I will have to figure out how to do that. Additionally I >> have one of those PC based oscilloscopes on the way. I don't know >> how to use them 100% but I'm about to learn I guess. :) >> >> I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 >> terminals and would really like this system to work with one of >> those. However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I >> think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers. I'm a bit >> reluctant to try pulling them apart to get in there and fix that. Is >> there a way to change the parity, etc settings on the SWTPC to match >> the terminal? Is it necessary? > > Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so > much for video terminals. But you'll have to change the hardwired > jumpers--the UART used in the CT1024 is not software-programmable. > > If this were my unit, I"d probably solder some pins into the pad holes > and then either use slide on jumpers or wirewrap to set the > characteristics. That way, when changing things around, you won't be > stressing the PCB. > > Something like this: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-20CFemale-to-Female-1-Pin-Plug-Jumper-Cable-Wires-Multicolor-K-/262158878688?hash=item3d09e307e0:g:B-MAAOSwwE5WVLR6 > > Search on "female jumper wires" From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 02:04:08 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 08:04:08 +0100 Subject: MicroVax II update In-Reply-To: <813676F2-2E8D-46E3-B8EA-44BD041E1219@gmail.com> References: <61f2fc88-c849-5c39-ebd9-8fd995d71350@comcast.net> <813676F2-2E8D-46E3-B8EA-44BD041E1219@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01ee01d1efb0$baba5030$302ef090$@gmail.com> > > > > > > Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask > because of the disk size limit under RT-11. I believe so. It can be configured to look like several disks <1Gb for this reason. > > > > Doug > > Dave From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Aug 5 15:41:32 2016 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 15:41:32 -0500 Subject: TU56 Tape Heads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57A4F9FC.3030302@ubanproductions.com> I have a linctape drive, which is a dectape compatible unit. I do not have the controller or any documentation, but it does have a head which might be useable to replace the broken head. If this would be useful, I would be willing to contribute it to the cause. Please see attached pics. --tom On 7/25/16 7:03 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > During our PDP-12 debugging today we found that the left tape head has an > open coil for data track 0. The left head was OK a little more than a year > ago when we found the open coil in the right head. One TU56 head on my > personal PDP-8/e also had an open coil when I got it. > > Our guess is the chemicals from the epoxy potting, possible flux residue, > and poor soldering are causing the failures. Getting the epoxy potting out > to repair the solder connection has proved impossible so far. > > Any source for three TU56 tape heads would be appreciated. > > We are also interested in ideas on how to get the epoxy potting out without > destroying the head. > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 02:30:10 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 00:30:10 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: <4s4mffn8ye9ap4ob6ria28xj.1470440289379@email.android.com> References: <4s4mffn8ye9ap4ob6ria28xj.1470440289379@email.android.com> Message-ID: <3C60C518-3A38-4290-871A-C75283EB46F9@gmail.com> I'll try to post a video on my channel (youtube/curiousmarc). Maybe not the whole thing, but the stuff that is interesting to me. Marc > On Aug 5, 2016, at 4:38 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > > Is anyone shooting video for those of us that can't go? I really enjoyed the videos of VCF East I found on Youtube. I'll likely never get to one of these things being up here in Canada.. still fun to check out virtually. > Brad > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Curious Marc > Date: 2016-08-05 3:03 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: VCF West - going? > > I'll be there with some of my HP equipment. On my way there soon. > Marc > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Aug 5, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Ian Finder wrote: >> >> I'll be there. Flying down from Seattle after work with an Amiga 4000 060 >> and a GRiD in my carry-on. >> I wanted to bring a Symbolics machine, but they happen to be quite heavy. ;) >> >> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:01 AM, william degnan >> wrote: >> >>> I am here now, will be around all day helping set up. I have not been to >>> the CHM since the last VCF...The space for the event looks good, tables are >>> out and waiting for exhibitors. >>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Ali wrote: >>>> >>>>>> I am heading to VCF West after a stop over in San Fran today...I am >>>>>> looking forward to meeting up with everyone. I will be there all day >>>>>> Friday as a set-up volunteer, Sat and Sunday morning. I was at the >>>>>> last VCF before it was called "West" ... it's been too long. >>>>> >>>>> I am going to be there both days and look forward to meeting people In >>>>> Real Life (TM). So should the list members get special badges or >>>> something >>>>> so people can know who is who? Or *GASP* are we going to have to be >>>>> personable and talk to each other! :D >>>>> >>>>> -Ali >>>> I'll be there co-running the Living Computer Museum's exhibit. Stop by >>> and >>>> say hi! >>>> >>>> - Josh >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> @ BillDeg: >>> Web: vintagecomputer.net >>> Twitter: @billdeg >>> Youtube: @billdeg >>> Unauthorized Bio >> >> >> >> -- >> Ian Finder >> (206) 395-MIPS >> ian.finder at gmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 6 07:14:02 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 12:14:02 +0000 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: <047e01d1e909$955072f0$bff158d0$@com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160728182216.03e1c190@juno.com> , , Message-ID: I also collect old/classic test gear. Some I use (my main 'scope is a Tekky 555, I think that's old enough to be a classic :-)). Some I just collect because it's a beautiful piece of electronics. My latest find was an HP3770B telephone line analyser -- an instrument to measure the freqeuncy response, etc of a telephone line. I have no real use for it, but it's classic HP, built like a brick outhouse, designed to be repaired (fixing screws are labelled, there are testpoints for everything, there's even an extender board stored inside). I had to add it to the collection. > > I've been restoring a HeathKit capacitor checker. > > I also have a couple HP counters with Nixies. Ditto. Mine have those HP counter boards with 8 transistors as the counters, 8 neons as the latch and a thick film CdS photoresistor array to drive the nixie tubes. 5243 and 5245 I think. > > I even have a 10 channel printer ( need to repair the > > roller ). I've found that one doesn't need the expensive > > ink roller ( though I'd love to have one, used or not ). > Is that the HP5055. I've rebuilt one. Be warned the printer motor runs off the mains, and that therefore there's mains on some PCB traces where you might not expect it. Interestingly the HP59301 HPIB-> 64 bit parallel interface can be connected directly to the HP5055 printer. There are 2 conenctors on the interface, one carries 40 bits the other 24. The 40 bit one links to the 5055 with a straight-wired 50 pin microribbon cable. The alternative character set for the HP59301 was clearly designed for this, it decodes ASCII V,A,O into the V, A, Ohms symbols on the 5055. > I use the two layer impact paper. Mine had an ink roller in it _and_ the impact paper. The fomer was doing a good job of gunging everything up, so I removed it and stored it in a plastic bag. -tony From chrise at pobox.com Sat Aug 6 09:10:05 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 09:10:05 -0500 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <49CC42C2-1F2F-4601-9ED0-582A6D726F5A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49CC42C2-1F2F-4601-9ED0-582A6D726F5A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20160806141005.GO2132@n0jcf.net> Simplifying the machine configuration can help too. You should only need MP-A (CPU), MP-S (serial interface) and MP-M at $A000 if you have the SWTBUG ROM. It only needs 128 bytes of RAM at $A000 so an unexpanded (4K) or partially populated MP-M would be sufficient. If you have MIKBUG, then you need MP-C instead of MP-S since MIKBUG does not know how to talk to MP-S. Removing all the other cards temporarily could eliminate conflicts due to addressing, failed components, etc. With this minimal configuration, you should be able to get SWTBUG's "$" prompt. MIKBUG will prompt with "*". Also, check which backplane board you have. Depending on vintage, you may have MP-B or MP-B2. MP-B2 allowed the I/O block address (normally at $8000) to be changed. If you have MP-B2 and someone has customized the machine, then there will be more to figure out regarding where the I/O is really located, what the monitor ROMs expect, etc. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_B/MP_B_Index.htm http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_B2/MP_B2_index.htm Chris On Friday (08/05/2016 at 10:47PM -0700), Brent Hilpert wrote: > Do you have some RAM at $A000+ yet? > That's all that should matter as far as required RAM goes. > > Presuming this is the holley page you were referring to: > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/HiTerm/Test6800_Index.html > he does mention RAM needed at A000 for the BUGs, as Chris and I have been saying. > > Without RAM there there's no stack for return addresses for subroutines executed in the BUGs, so execution could head off to wherever. > > > On 2016-Aug-05, at 10:23 PM, Brad H wrote: > > Okay so.. I decided to try the MP-C board out, just for kicks. No change. > > Then I decided to add one of the RAM boards.. the next one up in addresses. Got a little bit when I powered on. Added one of the old MPM boards.. one that has memory chips all piggybacked on one another. Now when I powered up, the system was sending four or five characters at a time, linefeed, four or five characters at a time, linefeed ad infinitum. I added the final MPM board.. zero. > > So.. I think we do have some ram problems.. most likely. I'm thinking it would be easiest to concentrate efforts on the socketed RAM boards.. test all the RAM out. I'm going to read up on addressing and try to understand a bit better what is going on. I'm thinking maybe I need to reconfigure the addressing on one of the boards to match whatever that overstuffed MPM board is set to. > > Until I get an oscilloscope.. fooling around is about all I can do here. > > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Chuck Guzis > > Date: 2016-08-05 3:55 PM (GMT-08:00) > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > > > On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: > >> I think I will have to figure out how to do that. Additionally I > >> have one of those PC based oscilloscopes on the way. I don't know > >> how to use them 100% but I'm about to learn I guess. :) > >> > >> I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 > >> terminals and would really like this system to work with one of > >> those. However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I > >> think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers. I'm a bit > >> reluctant to try pulling them apart to get in there and fix that. Is > >> there a way to change the parity, etc settings on the SWTPC to match > >> the terminal? Is it necessary? > > > > Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so > > much for video terminals. But you'll have to change the hardwired > > jumpers--the UART used in the CT1024 is not software-programmable. > > > > If this were my unit, I"d probably solder some pins into the pad holes > > and then either use slide on jumpers or wirewrap to set the > > characteristics. That way, when changing things around, you won't be > > stressing the PCB. > > > > Something like this: > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-20CFemale-to-Female-1-Pin-Plug-Jumper-Cable-Wires-Multicolor-K-/262158878688?hash=item3d09e307e0:g:B-MAAOSwwE5WVLR6 > > > > Search on "female jumper wires" -- Chris Elmquist From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Aug 6 09:59:59 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2016 07:59:59 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: <6ag9dpcitrlf8t0gxb3ihoxx.1470495599970@email.android.com> I've definitely got an MP-B. What I'm thinking is I'll use one of the socketed 16k boards and go through the RAMs to make sure I have good. ?But I'm having trouble understanding how to set the jumpers to get the addressing to A000. ?I thought I had that by the guide for the ram on the swtpc site (it's a Digital Research board). ?The machine only gets animated when that weird piggybacked mpm board is plugged in. I suppose if there are bad RAMs on the DR board that'd do it though. Brad Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Chris Elmquist Date: 2016-08-06 7:10 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 Simplifying the machine configuration can help too.? You should only need MP-A (CPU), MP-S (serial interface) and MP-M at $A000 if you have the SWTBUG ROM.? It only needs 128 bytes of RAM at $A000 so an unexpanded (4K) or partially populated MP-M would be sufficient. If you have MIKBUG, then you need MP-C instead of MP-S since MIKBUG does not know how to talk to MP-S. Removing all the other cards temporarily could eliminate conflicts due to addressing, failed components, etc. With this minimal configuration, you should be able to get SWTBUG's "$" prompt.? MIKBUG will prompt with "*". Also, check which backplane board you have.? Depending on vintage, you may have MP-B or MP-B2.? MP-B2 allowed the I/O block address (normally at $8000) to be changed.? If you have MP-B2 and someone has customized the machine, then there will be more to figure out regarding where the I/O is really located, what the monitor ROMs expect, etc. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_B/MP_B_Index.htm http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_B2/MP_B2_index.htm Chris On Friday (08/05/2016 at 10:47PM -0700), Brent Hilpert wrote: > Do you have some RAM at $A000+ yet? > That's all that should matter as far as required RAM goes. > > Presuming this is the holley page you were referring to: > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/HiTerm/Test6800_Index.html > he does mention RAM needed at A000 for the BUGs, as Chris and I have been saying. > > Without RAM there there's no stack for return addresses for subroutines executed in the BUGs, so execution could head off to wherever. > > > On 2016-Aug-05, at 10:23 PM, Brad H wrote: > > Okay so.. I decided to try the MP-C board out, just for kicks.? No change. > > Then I decided to add one of the RAM boards.. the next one up in addresses.? Got a little bit when I powered on.? Added one of the old MPM boards.. one that has memory chips all piggybacked on one another.? Now when I powered up, the system was sending four or five characters at a time, linefeed, four or five characters at a time, linefeed ad infinitum.? I added the final MPM board.. zero. > > So.. I think we do have some ram problems.. most likely.? I'm thinking it would be easiest to concentrate efforts on the socketed RAM boards.. test all the RAM out.? I'm going to read up on addressing and try to understand a bit better what is going on.? I'm thinking maybe I need to reconfigure the addressing on one of the boards to match whatever that overstuffed MPM board is set to. > > Until I get an oscilloscope.. fooling around is about all I can do here. > > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Chuck Guzis > > Date: 2016-08-05? 3:55 PM? (GMT-08:00) > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > > > On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: > >> I think I will have to figure out how to do that.? Additionally I > >> have one of those PC based oscilloscopes on the way.? I don't know > >> how to use them 100% but I'm about to learn I guess. :) > >> > >> I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 > >> terminals and would really like this system to work with one of > >> those.? However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I > >> think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers.? I'm a bit > >> reluctant to try pulling them apart to get in there and fix that.? Is > >> there a way to change the parity, etc settings on the SWTPC to match > >> the terminal?? Is it necessary? > > > > Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so > > much for video terminals.?? But you'll have to change the hardwired > > jumpers--the UART used in the CT1024 is not software-programmable. > > > > If this were my unit, I"d probably solder some pins into the pad holes > > and then either use slide on jumpers or wirewrap to set the > > characteristics.? That way, when changing things around, you won't be > > stressing the PCB. > > > > Something like this: > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-20CFemale-to-Female-1-Pin-Plug-Jumper-Cable-Wires-Multicolor-K-/262158878688?hash=item3d09e307e0:g:B-MAAOSwwE5WVLR6 > > > > Search on "female jumper wires" -- Chris Elmquist From lproven at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 10:21:50 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:21:50 +0200 Subject: Somewhat amusing Grauniad article on retrieving old digital material Message-ID: Germaine Greer's archive: digging up digital treasure from the floppy disks Archivists trying to preserve material stored in obsolete formats face a mighty challenge in retrieving decades of work by the Australian writer and feminist https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/aug/05/germaine-greer-archive-digital-treasure-floppy-disks -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 6 10:24:20 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 08:24:20 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <6ag9dpcitrlf8t0gxb3ihoxx.1470495599970@email.android.com> References: <6ag9dpcitrlf8t0gxb3ihoxx.1470495599970@email.android.com> Message-ID: If you use a 16K board you'll want to config it to start at $8000, so that it covers $8000-$BFFF. If it goes higher than that it may end up in conflict with the ROMS and IO. Alternatively, you could start with a minimal machine by reenabling the 6810 RAM on the CPU board and all you would need plugged into the backplane is the CPU board and console device board. On 2016-Aug-06, at 7:59 AM, Brad H wrote: > > > I've definitely got an MP-B. > What I'm thinking is I'll use one of the socketed 16k boards and go through the RAMs to make sure I have good. But I'm having trouble understanding how to set the jumpers to get the addressing to A000. I thought I had that by the guide for the ram on the swtpc site (it's a Digital Research board). The machine only gets animated when that weird piggybacked mpm board is plugged in. > I suppose if there are bad RAMs on the DR board that'd do it though. > Brad > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chris Elmquist > Date: 2016-08-06 7:10 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > > Simplifying the machine configuration can help too. You should only need > MP-A (CPU), MP-S (serial interface) and MP-M at $A000 if you have the > SWTBUG ROM. It only needs 128 bytes of RAM at $A000 so an unexpanded > (4K) or partially populated MP-M would be sufficient. > > If you have MIKBUG, then you need MP-C instead of MP-S since MIKBUG does > not know how to talk to MP-S. > > Removing all the other cards temporarily could eliminate conflicts due to > addressing, failed components, etc. > > With this minimal configuration, you should be able to get SWTBUG's "$" > prompt. MIKBUG will prompt with "*". > > Also, check which backplane board you have. Depending on vintage, you > may have MP-B or MP-B2. MP-B2 allowed the I/O block address (normally > at $8000) to be changed. If you have MP-B2 and someone has customized > the machine, then there will be more to figure out regarding where the > I/O is really located, what the monitor ROMs expect, etc. > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_B/MP_B_Index.htm > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_B2/MP_B2_index.htm > > Chris > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 10:47PM -0700), Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Do you have some RAM at $A000+ yet? >> That's all that should matter as far as required RAM goes. >> >> Presuming this is the holley page you were referring to: >> http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/HiTerm/Test6800_Index.html >> he does mention RAM needed at A000 for the BUGs, as Chris and I have been saying. >> >> Without RAM there there's no stack for return addresses for subroutines executed in the BUGs, so execution could head off to wherever. >> >> >> On 2016-Aug-05, at 10:23 PM, Brad H wrote: >>> Okay so.. I decided to try the MP-C board out, just for kicks. No change. >>> Then I decided to add one of the RAM boards.. the next one up in addresses. Got a little bit when I powered on. Added one of the old MPM boards.. one that has memory chips all piggybacked on one another. Now when I powered up, the system was sending four or five characters at a time, linefeed, four or five characters at a time, linefeed ad infinitum. I added the final MPM board.. zero. >>> So.. I think we do have some ram problems.. most likely. I'm thinking it would be easiest to concentrate efforts on the socketed RAM boards.. test all the RAM out. I'm going to read up on addressing and try to understand a bit better what is going on. I'm thinking maybe I need to reconfigure the addressing on one of the boards to match whatever that overstuffed MPM board is set to. >>> Until I get an oscilloscope.. fooling around is about all I can do here. >>> >>> Sent from my Samsung device >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Chuck Guzis >>> Date: 2016-08-05 3:55 PM (GMT-08:00) >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 >>> >>> On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: >>>> I think I will have to figure out how to do that. Additionally I >>>> have one of those PC based oscilloscopes on the way. I don't know >>>> how to use them 100% but I'm about to learn I guess. :) >>>> >>>> I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 >>>> terminals and would really like this system to work with one of >>>> those. However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I >>>> think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers. I'm a bit >>>> reluctant to try pulling them apart to get in there and fix that. Is >>>> there a way to change the parity, etc settings on the SWTPC to match >>>> the terminal? Is it necessary? >>> >>> Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so >>> much for video terminals. But you'll have to change the hardwired >>> jumpers--the UART used in the CT1024 is not software-programmable. >>> >>> If this were my unit, I"d probably solder some pins into the pad holes >>> and then either use slide on jumpers or wirewrap to set the >>> characteristics. That way, when changing things around, you won't be >>> stressing the PCB. >>> >>> Something like this: >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-20CFemale-to-Female-1-Pin-Plug-Jumper-Cable-Wires-Multicolor-K-/262158878688?hash=item3d09e307e0:g:B-MAAOSwwE5WVLR6 >>> >>> Search on "female jumper wires" > > -- > Chris Elmquist From trash80 at internode.on.net Sat Aug 6 02:49:04 2016 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:49:04 +1000 Subject: Mall directory computers In-Reply-To: References: <0f8a01d1dd76$dba4dff0$92ee9fd0$@bettercomputing.net> <000001d1eafa$f67c7450$e3755cf0$@internode.on.net> <000001d1eaff$467a5f40$d36f1dc0$@internode.on.net> <006601d1ebdc$5bb7f510$1327df30$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <002601d1efb7$01dba300$0592e900$@internode.on.net> As suggested I have removed the top cover - there was nothing accessible inside the black side cover. It's quite clever how its put together but what did surprise me was the TV remote control hardwired in under the Amiga. I've added some more photos so if anyone has any commentary or info it would be most welcome - I have yet to power it up. http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/shop-mall-commodore-64/ Kevin Parker P: 0418 815 527 -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian Finder Sent: Tuesday, 2 August 2016 04:23 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mall directory computers you should certainly open it up and remove the battery. I would guess the add on shell is a power supply, video modulator of some kind, and possibly a hard drive controller. On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:06 AM, Kevin Parker wrote: > I'm not exactly sure - it was one of those things that someone gave me > and I put it away - my policy is grab first and ask questions later so > it doesn't become landfill. > > I have tried to research this based on info from another reply but no joy. > > I might open it up and see if there are any clues inside. > > My understanding was that it was connected to a large flat panel > monitor and just used for displaying advertisements and specials etc. > It has a floppy disk "jammed" in the floppy drive which won't come out > - not sure why. > > > > Kevin Parker > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > drlegendre . > Sent: Monday, 1 August 2016 09:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Mall directory computers > > It's not +just+ an A500. What's the extra hardware piggybacked on the > A500 case? > > Looks to have a set of six RCA (F) type jacks on it. Is this for > connection of a touchscreen display? > > On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 2:43 AM, Kevin Parker > > wrote: > > > Thanks for the clarity and the extra info - as I said I haven?t > > opened it or fired it up much less had a good look at it. > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian > > Finder > > Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2016 17:28 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: Re: Mall directory computers > > > > That is certainly not a C= 64 as the title in your link suggests but > > rather an Amiga 500. > > > > These were quite popular for "video billboard" sort of purposes- I > > imagine they had it running SCALAMultimedia or a similar authoring > environment. > > > > My local high school district channel ran on a similar setup for > > many years. I recall seeing it stuck on the Amiga Workbench one day... > > > > On Sunday, July 31, 2016, Kevin Parker wrote: > > > > > Just spotted this Brad clearing up email after a 4 week break. I > > > can't answer your question but it reminded me of something that > > > other list users may be able to help with or it might just be of > interest. > > > > > > Quite some time ago a friend of mine bought a travel agent in a > > > shopping mall, did a refit of the shop and then later went bust. > > > Fortunately before the refit and going bust he gave me his old > > > shop display which was run on a modified Commodore. > > > > > > I haven't opened it up or powered it up but if anyone knows what > > > this is I'd be grateful. I've posted some photos: > > > > > > > > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/shop-mall-co > > > mm > > > od > > > ore-64/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] > > > On Behalf Of Brad H > > > Sent: Thursday, 14 July 2016 12:25 > > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Subject: Mall directory computers > > > > > > Been wondering about this for a while. Just one of those odd > childhood > > > memories. > > > > > > > > > > > > When I was a kid growing up in Oakville, Ontario, I remember > > > Oakville Mall getting one of those very early mall directory computers. > > > This would have been like, 1982-84, somewhere thereabouts. From > > > what I remember, they had kind of CGA-sh graphics and a chiclet > 'keyboard' > > > you used to browse the directory. I'm wondering, were they just > > > PCs, most likely? Or some kind of custom job? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > (206) 395-MIPS > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From pye at mactec.com.au Sat Aug 6 03:11:14 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 18:11:14 +1000 Subject: Mall directory computers In-Reply-To: <002601d1efb7$01dba300$0592e900$@internode.on.net> References: <0f8a01d1dd76$dba4dff0$92ee9fd0$@bettercomputing.net> <000001d1eafa$f67c7450$e3755cf0$@internode.on.net> <000001d1eaff$467a5f40$d36f1dc0$@internode.on.net> <006601d1ebdc$5bb7f510$1327df30$@internode.on.net> <002601d1efb7$01dba300$0592e900$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <0A6BEB11-77E2-408E-99CC-AD7BE9119C98@mactec.com.au> > On 6 Aug 2016, at 5:49 pm, Kevin Parker wrote: > > As suggested I have removed the top cover - there was nothing accessible inside the black side cover. > > It's quite clever how its put together but what did surprise me was the TV remote control hardwired in under the Amiga. > > I've added some more photos so if anyone has any commentary or info it would be most welcome - I have yet to power it up. > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/shop-mall-commodore-64/ Hi Kevin, it appears as though the company that made that setup is still in business. http://multiscreen.biz/au/about-us I would have though that the TV/VCR remote would have had it?s IR LED close to a hole in the metal case. Do you know which travel agent it came from? If it was a major chain one, then there were probably heaps of these units around Australia. Cheers, Chris From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Aug 6 11:58:05 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 18:58:05 +0200 Subject: TU56 Tape Heads In-Reply-To: <57A4F9FC.3030302@ubanproductions.com> References: <57A4F9FC.3030302@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <20160806165804.GB3629@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 03:41:32PM -0500, Tom Uban wrote: > I have a linctape drive, which is a dectape compatible unit. I do not have > the controller or any documentation, but it does have a head which might be > useable to replace the broken head. If this would be useful, I would be > willing to contribute it to the cause. Please don't scavenge a LINCtape. it would be more valuable on a LINC or PDP-12 which are must rarer. > > Please see attached pics. The list strips pics. Send separately or put on the web. /P > > --tom > > > On 7/25/16 7:03 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > > During our PDP-12 debugging today we found that the left tape head has an > > open coil for data track 0. The left head was OK a little more than a year > > ago when we found the open coil in the right head. One TU56 head on my > > personal PDP-8/e also had an open coil when I got it. > > > > Our guess is the chemicals from the epoxy potting, possible flux residue, > > and poor soldering are causing the failures. Getting the epoxy potting out > > to repair the solder connection has proved impossible so far. > > > > Any source for three TU56 tape heads would be appreciated. > > > > We are also interested in ideas on how to get the epoxy potting out without > > destroying the head. > > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Aug 6 13:29:08 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 11:29:08 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: <681B0202-32CE-4277-8D57-18B9CFF0E57B@gmail.com> References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> <681B0202-32CE-4277-8D57-18B9CFF0E57B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <96BACCE4-F9ED-4651-9E17-4024CC5B75C4@fritzm.org> I'm headed down from Oakland now (Sat) and will be there most of the afternoon. Looking forward to seeing all the goodies and meeting some folks! From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 14:09:53 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 15:09:53 -0400 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: <96BACCE4-F9ED-4651-9E17-4024CC5B75C4@fritzm.org> References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> <681B0202-32CE-4277-8D57-18B9CFF0E57B@gmail.com> <96BACCE4-F9ED-4651-9E17-4024CC5B75C4@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Bruce Damer speaking now...incredible exhibits very talented exhibitors. .. hard to say what's "best"...taking lots of photos Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Aug 6, 2016 11:51 AM, "Fritz Mueller" wrote: > I'm headed down from Oakland now (Sat) and will be there most of the > afternoon. Looking forward to seeing all the goodies and meeting some > folks! From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Aug 6 14:53:10 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 12:53:10 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <6ag9dpcitrlf8t0gxb3ihoxx.1470495599970@email.android.com> Message-ID: <001801d1f01c$2a4fabf0$7eef03d0$@bettercomputing.net> Okay... I'm beginning to think RAM config is a part of the problem here. Here's how the boards are configured: DRC 16k Bd 1 - Jumpered for 0000-3FFF DRC 16k Bd 2 - Jumpered for 4000-7FFF MP-M Bd 1 - Jumpers are - I can't figure it out. Supposed to be A to one of the pads marked 0 - 7.. instead A goes to a 7401, which is piggybacked on another chip. Pads 3 and 4 are also jumpered to this chip? MP-M Bd 2- Jumpered from A - 5 Is it possible I have nothing for $A000 here? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 8:24 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 If you use a 16K board you'll want to config it to start at $8000, so that it covers $8000-$BFFF. If it goes higher than that it may end up in conflict with the ROMS and IO. Alternatively, you could start with a minimal machine by reenabling the 6810 RAM on the CPU board and all you would need plugged into the backplane is the CPU board and console device board. On 2016-Aug-06, at 7:59 AM, Brad H wrote: > > > I've definitely got an MP-B. > What I'm thinking is I'll use one of the socketed 16k boards and go through the RAMs to make sure I have good. But I'm having trouble understanding how to set the jumpers to get the addressing to A000. I thought I had that by the guide for the ram on the swtpc site (it's a Digital Research board). The machine only gets animated when that weird piggybacked mpm board is plugged in. > I suppose if there are bad RAMs on the DR board that'd do it though. > Brad > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chris Elmquist > Date: 2016-08-06 7:10 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > > Simplifying the machine configuration can help too. You should only > need MP-A (CPU), MP-S (serial interface) and MP-M at $A000 if you have > the SWTBUG ROM. It only needs 128 bytes of RAM at $A000 so an > unexpanded > (4K) or partially populated MP-M would be sufficient. > > If you have MIKBUG, then you need MP-C instead of MP-S since MIKBUG > does not know how to talk to MP-S. > > Removing all the other cards temporarily could eliminate conflicts due > to addressing, failed components, etc. > > With this minimal configuration, you should be able to get SWTBUG's "$" > prompt. MIKBUG will prompt with "*". > > Also, check which backplane board you have. Depending on vintage, you > may have MP-B or MP-B2. MP-B2 allowed the I/O block address (normally > at $8000) to be changed. If you have MP-B2 and someone has customized > the machine, then there will be more to figure out regarding where the > I/O is really located, what the monitor ROMs expect, etc. > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_B/MP_B_Index.htm > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_B2/MP_B2_index.htm > > Chris > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 10:47PM -0700), Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Do you have some RAM at $A000+ yet? >> That's all that should matter as far as required RAM goes. >> >> Presuming this is the holley page you were referring to: >> http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/HiTerm/Test6800_Index.html >> he does mention RAM needed at A000 for the BUGs, as Chris and I have been saying. >> >> Without RAM there there's no stack for return addresses for subroutines executed in the BUGs, so execution could head off to wherever. >> >> >> On 2016-Aug-05, at 10:23 PM, Brad H wrote: >>> Okay so.. I decided to try the MP-C board out, just for kicks. No change. >>> Then I decided to add one of the RAM boards.. the next one up in addresses. Got a little bit when I powered on. Added one of the old MPM boards.. one that has memory chips all piggybacked on one another. Now when I powered up, the system was sending four or five characters at a time, linefeed, four or five characters at a time, linefeed ad infinitum. I added the final MPM board.. zero. >>> So.. I think we do have some ram problems.. most likely. I'm thinking it would be easiest to concentrate efforts on the socketed RAM boards.. test all the RAM out. I'm going to read up on addressing and try to understand a bit better what is going on. I'm thinking maybe I need to reconfigure the addressing on one of the boards to match whatever that overstuffed MPM board is set to. >>> Until I get an oscilloscope.. fooling around is about all I can do here. >>> >>> Sent from my Samsung device >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Chuck Guzis >>> Date: 2016-08-05 3:55 PM (GMT-08:00) >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 >>> >>> On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: >>>> I think I will have to figure out how to do that. Additionally I >>>> have one of those PC based oscilloscopes on the way. I don't know >>>> how to use them 100% but I'm about to learn I guess. :) >>>> >>>> I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 >>>> terminals and would really like this system to work with one of >>>> those. However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I >>>> think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers. I'm a bit >>>> reluctant to try pulling them apart to get in there and fix that. >>>> Is there a way to change the parity, etc settings on the SWTPC to >>>> match the terminal? Is it necessary? >>> >>> Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so >>> much for video terminals. But you'll have to change the hardwired >>> jumpers--the UART used in the CT1024 is not software-programmable. >>> >>> If this were my unit, I"d probably solder some pins into the pad >>> holes and then either use slide on jumpers or wirewrap to set the >>> characteristics. That way, when changing things around, you won't >>> be stressing the PCB. >>> >>> Something like this: >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-20CFemale-to-Female-1-Pin-Plug-Jumper- >>> Cable-Wires-Multicolor-K-/262158878688?hash=item3d09e307e0:g:B-MAAOS >>> wwE5WVLR6 >>> >>> Search on "female jumper wires" > > -- > Chris Elmquist From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Aug 6 15:44:18 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 13:44:18 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <001801d1f01c$2a4fabf0$7eef03d0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <6ag9dpcitrlf8t0gxb3ihoxx.1470495599970@email.android.com> <001801d1f01c$2a4fabf0$7eef03d0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <001f01d1f023$4e9cb730$ebd62590$@bettercomputing.net> Gahh! So close! https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6WVFiZHdyMHBlNW8&usp=shar ing The prompt is totally what should be appearing, at least initially. But it just keeps repeating itself over and over again and doesn't stop. Notes: I tried jumpering the DRC board to A000 properly this time, but no dice. So then I changed the jumper on the 'simple' MP-M board so that it was A-0... plugged it in.. nothing. Finally I took the second MP-M, with all the fancy jumper wires and piggybacking nonsense. Cannot tell how it is jumpered or what for, but plugged it in.. boom! Got that prompt. Only one problem.. it just endlessly repeats itself. I can't type anything or stop it. Also, I'm using the MP-C board. After I got that prompt I thought I'd switch the MP-S in but.. nada. I'm thinking (hoping) I've just got a wiring issue or something here that is generating a continuous feedback loop. But I don't know. It could well be that both the MP-C and MP-S are hooped. But, that's definitely progress. I'll post some high-res photos of the boards in that link asap. Brad From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Aug 6 16:11:46 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:11:46 -0400 Subject: VCF West - going? Message-ID: surprised no one pulled off a live stream of this... In a message dated 8/6/2016 12:09:58 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, billdegnan at gmail.com writes: Bruce Damer speaking now...incredible exhibits very talented exhibitors. .. hard to say what's "best"...taking lots of photos Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Aug 6, 2016 11:51 AM, "Fritz Mueller" wrote: > I'm headed down from Oakland now (Sat) and will be there most of the > afternoon. Looking forward to seeing all the goodies and meeting some > folks! From starbase89 at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 16:12:22 2016 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:12:22 -0400 Subject: Yard sale goodies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings! Went to a sale this morning and ended up with some neato pieces of equipment. First are two Shugart 8 inch floppy drives ($1 each), a microprocessor training kit ($30) and finally a RCA COSMAC dual 8 inch disk drive ($5). One of the sellers told me to come back tomorrow because he's going to dig out a bunch of other 70s and early 80s equipment. https://postimg.org/image/gyjd3j16p/ I can find no reference to either the microprocessor trainer for the cosmic disk drive assembly online. Any information would be pretty cool to see. Thanks! Joe Giliberti From doug-cctalk at dpf.cc Sat Aug 6 16:16:42 2016 From: doug-cctalk at dpf.cc (Doug F) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:16:42 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3b2, IBM RT, others In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92B42A74-487A-4548-891F-091DA1F24F64@dpf.cc> The woman didn't seem to be interested in shipping, Ken. I posted her information online earlier so you can contact her directly. One of the other list members is in Austin and may be able to assist, however. Check the recent archives. :) Cheers, Doug > On Aug 5, 2016, at 10:03 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > > I'd really like the AT&T 4425 terminal, which doesn't seem to have > been claimed. I spent a couple of years with one on my desk. Any > chance they'd ship? > > My wife and I have an agreement that if I bring home any more VME kit > I have to get rid of an equivalent tonnage of other things. So unless > that Motorola tower is an 88200 or something suitable esoteric, I > probably need to pass. > > The E&S box looks like a Sun 3/110 or 4/110 with additional boards. > I'd love to have one. > > Obviously, I would have killed for the Explorer or the RTs. Double > kill for the 5620. Good they've found homes. > > KJ > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 16:24:02 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 14:24:02 -0700 Subject: Yard sale goodies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 6, 2016 2:12 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: > > Greetings! > Went to a sale this morning and ended up with some neato pieces of > equipment. First are two Shugart 8 inch floppy drives ($1 each), a > microprocessor training kit ($30) and finally a RCA COSMAC dual 8 inch disk > drive ($5). One of the sellers told me to come back tomorrow because he's > going to dig out a bunch of other 70s and early 80s equipment. > https://postimg.org/image/gyjd3j16p/ > I can find no reference to either the microprocessor trainer for the cosmic > disk drive assembly online. Any information would be pretty cool to see. > > Thanks! > Joe Giliberti Those ICS microprocessor trainers show up on eBay from time to time. Erik has a page about them here. http://www.vintage-computer.com/ics.shtml From pete at pski.net Sat Aug 6 16:45:06 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:45:06 -0400 Subject: Yard sale goodies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Aug 6, 2016, at 5:12 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > Greetings! > Went to a sale this morning and ended up with some neato pieces of > equipment. First are two Shugart 8 inch floppy drives ($1 each),.., 8in Shugarts at a Yard Sale?! Man, wish I found that at yard sales around here. Nothing but junk. From starbase89 at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 17:18:04 2016 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 18:18:04 -0400 Subject: Yard sale goodies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Supposedly the guy has a full COSMAC system that he'll have for me tomorrow. On Aug 6, 2016 5:45 PM, "Peter Cetinski" wrote: > > > On Aug 6, 2016, at 5:12 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > > > Greetings! > > Went to a sale this morning and ended up with some neato pieces of > > equipment. First are two Shugart 8 inch floppy drives ($1 each),.., > > 8in Shugarts at a Yard Sale?! Man, wish I found that at yard sales around > here. Nothing but junk. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Aug 6 17:37:14 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 15:37:14 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> <681B0202-32CE-4277-8D57-18B9CFF0E57B@gmail.com> <96BACCE4-F9ED-4651-9E17-4024CC5B75C4@fritzm.org> Message-ID: I'm too lazy to drive up there myself, but I'm wearing out my mouse button finger clicking "like" on interesting pictures tweeted from the show. Wow, an original Amiga custom chip prototype board stack!! I'm looking forward to seeing any video that comes out from the show. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Aug 6 18:00:20 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 16:00:20 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <001f01d1f023$4e9cb730$ebd62590$@bettercomputing.net> References: <6ag9dpcitrlf8t0gxb3ihoxx.1470495599970@email.android.com> <001801d1f01c$2a4fabf0$7eef03d0$@bettercomputing.net> <001f01d1f023$4e9cb730$ebd62590$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <002601d1f036$4f5a8e50$ee0faaf0$@bettercomputing.net> I am pleased to report I now have the 6800 alive and working. I discovered one last error I made -- I assumed the cable to be used was a null modem. It was not.. what we needed was a 'standard modem cable' or just straight serial. I hooked that up, then looped the DSR/DTS pins on the cable at the SWTPC end.. voila! I can do all kinds of SWTBUG functions no problem now. For fun, I even hooked it up to my SWTPC CT1024. I was pleased to see it does communicate, albeit with lots of ? marks because the CT1024 is configured for parity. I guess I'll have to swallow hard, pull the board (hoping the machine works again after) and change the jumpers to what the 6800 is expecting. Then I can do a video of the two working together, which as of yet has not been demonstrated on youtube. :) Thanks to everyone for their helpful suggestions. I'm very lucky this thing wanted to work. Off to do memory tests and test load some programs.. then figure out how to bring back in the other mem boards. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 1:44 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: SWTPC 6800 Gahh! So close! https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6WVFiZHdyMHBlNW8&usp=shar ing The prompt is totally what should be appearing, at least initially. But it just keeps repeating itself over and over again and doesn't stop. Notes: I tried jumpering the DRC board to A000 properly this time, but no dice. So then I changed the jumper on the 'simple' MP-M board so that it was A-0... plugged it in.. nothing. Finally I took the second MP-M, with all the fancy jumper wires and piggybacking nonsense. Cannot tell how it is jumpered or what for, but plugged it in.. boom! Got that prompt. Only one problem.. it just endlessly repeats itself. I can't type anything or stop it. Also, I'm using the MP-C board. After I got that prompt I thought I'd switch the MP-S in but.. nada. I'm thinking (hoping) I've just got a wiring issue or something here that is generating a continuous feedback loop. But I don't know. It could well be that both the MP-C and MP-S are hooped. But, that's definitely progress. I'll post some high-res photos of the boards in that link asap. Brad From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 18:12:45 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 17:12:45 -0600 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) Message-ID: Because the cwtool support for Intel M2FM floppy disk flux images isn't publicly available, I've written a crude Python 3 program for converting such images (in DFI format) to ImageDisk images, and put it on github: https://github.com/brouhaha/dfitoimd My ADPLL data separator has parameters to control the proportions of frequency adjustment and instantaneous phase adjustment that are done at each flux transition. I've experimented with the parameters quite a bit, but it's still not good enough to reliably recover all sectors from the disk images that started this thread. The default parameters are currently 0.5% frequency adjustment and 10% instantaneous phase adjustment. I was actually fairly surprised that I didn't get better results with more frequency adjustment and less instantaneous phase adjustment. It's entirely possible that my algorithm isn't very good. The code can handle normal IBM 3740 single-density FM format as well, though there are other published programs that already do that. There's a start at code for IBM System/34 double-density MFM format also, but it hasn't been tested at all as I don't happen to have any suitable DFI images. The dfitoimd program is quite slow; on a typical Intel M2FM image with two revolutions per track and 25 MHz sampling, it takes 64 seconds on a 4.0 GHz AMD CPU. I'm pretty sure that rewriting it in C/C++/C# or the like would make it much faster, but I specifically chose Python as I find it easier to experiment with the algorithms. From kirkbdavis at me.com Sat Aug 6 19:59:15 2016 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2016 17:59:15 -0700 Subject: Video From VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> <681B0202-32CE-4277-8D57-18B9CFF0E57B@gmail.com> <96BACCE4-F9ED-4651-9E17-4024CC5B75C4@fritzm.org> Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjf3WkYDaEk Carl Claunch at Vintage Computer Festival West, Mount View CA 2016 From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 20:16:34 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 20:16:34 -0500 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: <047e01d1e909$955072f0$bff158d0$@com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160728182216.03e1c190@juno.com> Message-ID: Though I have some background in Telcom, I'd never heard of the HP 3370(B) so had to check it out. Here are a couple of take-away quotes from a thread at: http://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?p=866814 "The A suffix boxes were designed to test phone lines for modems for CCIT standards (UK & Europe), the B suffix (B-for-Bell) were the for the American market. Designed and built in South Queensferry. You use a pair of 3770s one at each end of a leased phone line connection. One transmits to the other and vice-versa and they measure frequency response and group delay. The purpose was to assess lines for modem use. The firms who leased lines used these boxes to check they were getting the quality they were paying for. The telcos used these boxes to make sure the lines they were leasing out weren't below contract performance and going to cost them penalties. Nice business for the instrument makers." "They were around 12 kilobucks each back in the day. I think the 3770 did level, flatness and distortion, I think the 3771 did group delay come to think of it. My pilot tone filter probably did go in the 3770." As I was assuming, they are used in pairs at opposite ends of the line. Neat device. On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 7:14 AM, tony duell wrote: > I also collect old/classic test gear. Some I use (my main > 'scope is a Tekky 555, I think that's old enough to be a > classic :-)). Some I just collect because it's a beautiful > piece of electronics. My latest find was an HP3770B > telephone line analyser -- an instrument to measure the > freqeuncy response, etc of a telephone line. I have no > real use for it, but it's classic HP, built like a brick outhouse, > designed to be repaired (fixing screws are labelled, there > are testpoints for everything, there's even an extender board > stored inside). I had to add it to the collection. > > > > > > I've been restoring a HeathKit capacitor checker. > > > > I also have a couple HP counters with Nixies. > > Ditto. Mine have those HP counter boards with 8 transistors > as the counters, 8 neons as the latch and a thick film CdS > photoresistor array to drive the nixie tubes. 5243 and 5245 I think. > > > > > I even have a 10 channel printer ( need to repair the > > > > roller ). I've found that one doesn't need the expensive > > > > ink roller ( though I'd love to have one, used or not ). > > > > Is that the HP5055. I've rebuilt one. Be warned the printer > motor runs off the mains, and that therefore there's mains > on some PCB traces where you might not expect it. > > Interestingly the HP59301 HPIB-> 64 bit parallel interface > can be connected directly to the HP5055 printer. There > are 2 conenctors on the interface, one carries 40 bits > the other 24. The 40 bit one links to the 5055 with a straight-wired > 50 pin microribbon cable. The alternative character set for > the HP59301 was clearly designed for this, it decodes ASCII > V,A,O into the V, A, Ohms symbols on the 5055. > > > I use the two layer impact paper. > > Mine had an ink roller in it _and_ the impact paper. The fomer > was doing a good job of gunging everything up, so I removed > it and stored it in a plastic bag. > > -tony > From kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 21:08:17 2016 From: kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com (Kevin Griffin) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 19:08:17 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> <681B0202-32CE-4277-8D57-18B9CFF0E57B@gmail.com> <96BACCE4-F9ED-4651-9E17-4024CC5B75C4@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Had a great time today at VCF West! Awesome presentations. Will anybody be there tomorrow who can give me direction on how to tackle my ""scrolling screen" issue with both of my Lisa 2s? Not looking for anyone to work on them, just on where to start or what to replace. Thanks! On Saturday, August 6, 2016, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I'm too lazy to drive up there myself, but I'm wearing out my mouse button > finger clicking "like" on interesting pictures tweeted from the show. Wow, > an original Amiga custom chip prototype board stack!! I'm looking forward > to seeing any video that comes out from the show. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 7 00:56:37 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 05:56:37 +0000 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: <047e01d1e909$955072f0$bff158d0$@com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160728182216.03e1c190@juno.com> , Message-ID: > Though I have some background in Telcom, I'd never heard of the HP 3370(B) > so had to check it out. Here are a couple of take-away quotes from a > thread at: http://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?p=866814 Did you also notice that one of the contributors to that thread goes by the username of 'tonyduell'? That's where mine came from :-) > "The A suffix boxes were designed to test phone lines for modems for CCIT > standards (UK & Europe), the B suffix (B-for-Bell) were the for the > American market. Designed and built in South Queensferry. Yes and I don't believe it. Mine is a -B. I got the manual -- Keysight (was Agilent, was HP) have what they claim is the operating manual to download. Well the first 50 pages are the operating manual. The rest is the service manual with full schematics [1]. Anyway, it's the manual for the -B. But there is an option (A44 assembly) to add the extra protection zeners and fuses that was only fitted to UK models (and mine has it). Since a Bell modem would cause a lot of problems on an old UK phone line, I do not believe the -B version was US only. [1] Well, schematics of everything (all the PCBs, PSU, etc) apart from the rotary encoder used on the manual tuning knob. And guess what, my rotary encoder is not giving any outputs. One line is stuck high (I think), the other seems to be floating. Still, there are not that many bits inside it. At least I have schematics of the 30-odd plug-in PCBs. > You use a pair of 3770s one at each end of a leased phone line connection. You can use a single 3770B to transmit to itself if you have access to both ends of the line in the same room. Or if you want to test a simulated line, repeater amplifiers, etc. The use of 2 instruments, one effectively controling the other, requires a factory option in them. Mine has it, but it was not standard. > "They were around 12 kilobucks each back in the day. I think the 3770 did > level, flatness and distortion, I think the 3771 did group delay come to > think of it. My pilot tone filter probably did go in the 3770." I've not looked at all the features yet (I am still reparing it) but there is certainly some delay-measuring feature in the 3770B > As I was assuming, they are used in pairs at opposite ends of the line. > Neat device. Oddly, there's a lot of digital circuitry in there (the transmit 'oscillator' is a digital direct synthesiser with a couple of HP tricks, for example) but there is no HPIB (or other digital) interface on the unit. -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 01:01:58 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 06:01:58 +0000 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: <047e01d1e909$955072f0$bff158d0$@com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160728182216.03e1c190@juno.com> , Message-ID: It must be a IT-28. It has a 500V leakage check. It is not a high precision device but it will be useful. I do have a precision LRC bridge made by Marconi that I can use for those purposes. It has a quick check type large range scales. It is more useful for quick checking. My main issue right now is to glue a broken switch wafer. I tried some super glue but it didn't hold. I'm going to try JB weld next. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of drlegendre . Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 9:55:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: the value of old test and repair equipment "I've been restoring a HeathKit capacitor checker." Which one, the IT-28? Those are really handy for finding leakage in high-voltage caps, as they have a crazy-high (like 600V ?) power supply. Unlike modern SS units, the IT-28 can test at practical working voltages. There's data out there on how to finely calibrate those units, but I don't see much point in it.. It's a lot of fiddly work and for what - to have the best 40-year-old LCR meter? If you want a better than ballpark measure of L or C, get one of the cheap uC-based swiss knife testers. A set of 1% metal film resistors are cheap, though, and will improve stability. If you ever feel the need to do semi-precision work with a device like the IT-28, you're best off running it as a comparator and keeping a set of precision value caps for reference. In that case, you only need to make sure you have well matched resistor pairs in the bridge circuit. On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:47 PM, dwight wrote: > I've been restoring a HeathKit capacitor checker. > > I also have a couple HP counters with Nixies. > > I even have a 10 channel printer ( need to repair the > > roller ). I've found that one doesn't need the expensive > > ink roller ( though I'd love to have one, used or not ). > > I use the two layer impact paper. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Ian S. King < > isking at uw.edu> > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 3:46:13 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: the value of old test and repair equipment > > I really like my old test gear and yes, it just seems right to be restoring > vintage computers with vintage instruments. HP scopes, logic analyzers, > DVMs; function generator; Tek scope, frequency counter; as well as just > 'sundry'. But I did break down and buy a DDS frequency generator to work > on my VHF/UHF ham gear. > > On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:07 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > > In fact, the value of old test gear varies tremendously.. > > > > Vacuum tube testers of certain makes & models are near the top of the > food > > chain, with clean, working examples pulling $1500+ (USD) on a very > regular > > basis. > > > > There's also a strong following for much 'classic' audio analysis gear > (HD > > meters, ID meters, spectrum analyzers, etc.) some very fine multi-meters > > and anything really hi-end like General Radio, Breull & Kejjr, HP, and so > > forth. > > > > Some very early examples from the 1910s to 30's also pull good value > simply > > for visual appeal. Much of this gear is resplendent with embossed, > enameled > > panels, sculpted Bakelite knobs, large meter movements and an overall Art > > Deco styling. > > > > Seen a nice Supreme Diagnometer recently? Or any of the 40s-70s era > English > > made tube testers, like the AVO? Hickok also made a series of bench VTVMs > > with massive chromed meters, designed to be large enough that they can be > > read from many feet away.. those are beautiful for display, and guess > what > > - they work great, too! > > > > On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Dale H. Cook > wrote: > > > > > At 03:52 PM 7/28/2016, Electronics Plus wrote: > > > > > > >... does as-is old test and repair equip that won't be particularly > > cheap > > > have interest to you guys? > > > > > > It depends entirely on the make and model of equipment. I always have a > > > laundry list of stuff I am looking for - one of the reasons why I bring > > my > > > tablet to meets. > > > > > > Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > > > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sun Aug 7 01:56:14 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2016 23:56:14 -0700 Subject: 6800 memory addressing Message-ID: So I have the 6800 almost fully working, however I've hit one snag. ? I loaded some of the memory diags as a first test, from txt files posted online. ?The first couple worked ok, but the third kept hitting an error immediately on start. ? I thought little of it and was eager to try a bigger program. ?I tried Blackjack. ?However I noticed when it was loading.. instead of just the cursor remaining beside my L until loaded, it began dumping random stuff out. So that's when I went back to that RAM test. ?I noticed it has having the same issue with a certain range. ?I realized then that my single RAM board was only covering from (I think) A000 up to but not including C000.? So I used the jumpers on my DRC 16k boards to fill in the blanks, so to speak. ?But I'm stuck on the last one. ?The memory check now crashes at address 8000. ?Because my last MPM board was modified, I'm not sure how to get that particular range. ?I'm also wondering why I only get from A000 to C000 on my other MP-M board. ?The 16k boards can be set for wide ranges.. say 8000 through I think FFFF (can't look at the docs as SWTPC.COM went down tonight). ?I'm assuming the smaller RAM boards cover less? ?With three of the four installed, I can load a program via txt file without error but cannot run it.. if I hit G it just freezes there. ?So I'm not sure if I need to configure a ram board for $8000 up to $A000 or if I potentially have another problem. ?And because the MP-M boards are both modified.. I don't know what they are/were set up to do. Brad Sent from my Samsung device From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 02:57:07 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 02:57:07 -0500 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: <047e01d1e909$955072f0$bff158d0$@com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160728182216.03e1c190@juno.com> Message-ID: "> Though I have some background in Telcom, I'd never heard of the HP 3370(B) > so had to check it out. Here are a couple of take-away quotes from a > thread at: http://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?p=866814 Did you also notice that one of the contributors to that thread goes by the username of 'tonyduell'? That's where mine came from :-)" Not sure how I missed that, Tony, but yes - you're second from the top. On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 1:01 AM, dwight wrote: > It must be a IT-28. It has a 500V leakage check. > > It is not a high precision device but it will be useful. > > I do have a precision LRC bridge made by Marconi > > that I can use for those purposes. It has a quick > > check type large range scales. It is more useful for > > quick checking. > > My main issue right now is to glue a broken > > switch wafer. I tried some super glue but it didn't > > hold. I'm going to try JB weld next. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of drlegendre . < > drlegendre at gmail.com> > Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 9:55:27 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: the value of old test and repair equipment > > "I've been restoring a HeathKit capacitor checker." > > Which one, the IT-28? Those are really handy for finding leakage in > high-voltage caps, as they have a crazy-high (like 600V ?) power supply. > Unlike modern SS units, the IT-28 can test at practical working voltages. > > There's data out there on how to finely calibrate those units, but I don't > see much point in it.. It's a lot of fiddly work and for what - to have the > best 40-year-old LCR meter? If you want a better than ballpark measure of L > or C, get one of the cheap uC-based swiss knife testers. A set of 1% metal > film resistors are cheap, though, and will improve stability. > > If you ever feel the need to do semi-precision work with a device like the > IT-28, you're best off running it as a comparator and keeping a set of > precision value caps for reference. In that case, you only need to make > sure you have well matched resistor pairs in the bridge circuit. > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:47 PM, dwight wrote: > > > I've been restoring a HeathKit capacitor checker. > > > > I also have a couple HP counters with Nixies. > > > > I even have a 10 channel printer ( need to repair the > > > > roller ). I've found that one doesn't need the expensive > > > > ink roller ( though I'd love to have one, used or not ). > > > > I use the two layer impact paper. > > > > Dwight > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: cctalk on behalf of Ian S. King < > > isking at uw.edu> > > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 3:46:13 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: the value of old test and repair equipment > > > > I really like my old test gear and yes, it just seems right to be > restoring > > vintage computers with vintage instruments. HP scopes, logic analyzers, > > DVMs; function generator; Tek scope, frequency counter; as well as just > > 'sundry'. But I did break down and buy a DDS frequency generator to work > > on my VHF/UHF ham gear. > > > > On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:07 PM, drlegendre . > > wrote: > > > > > In fact, the value of old test gear varies tremendously.. > > > > > > Vacuum tube testers of certain makes & models are near the top of the > > food > > > chain, with clean, working examples pulling $1500+ (USD) on a very > > regular > > > basis. > > > > > > There's also a strong following for much 'classic' audio analysis gear > > (HD > > > meters, ID meters, spectrum analyzers, etc.) some very fine > multi-meters > > > and anything really hi-end like General Radio, Breull & Kejjr, HP, and > so > > > forth. > > > > > > Some very early examples from the 1910s to 30's also pull good value > > simply > > > for visual appeal. Much of this gear is resplendent with embossed, > > enameled > > > panels, sculpted Bakelite knobs, large meter movements and an overall > Art > > > Deco styling. > > > > > > Seen a nice Supreme Diagnometer recently? Or any of the 40s-70s era > > English > > > made tube testers, like the AVO? Hickok also made a series of bench > VTVMs > > > with massive chromed meters, designed to be large enough that they can > be > > > read from many feet away.. those are beautiful for display, and guess > > what > > > - they work great, too! > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Dale H. Cook > > wrote: > > > > > > > At 03:52 PM 7/28/2016, Electronics Plus wrote: > > > > > > > > >... does as-is old test and repair equip that won't be particularly > > > cheap > > > > have interest to you guys? > > > > > > > > It depends entirely on the make and model of equipment. I always > have a > > > > laundry list of stuff I am looking for - one of the reasons why I > bring > > > my > > > > tablet to meets. > > > > > > > > Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > > > > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > > The Information School > > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a > Sociotechnical > > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > > > University of Washington > > > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > > > From trash80 at internode.on.net Sun Aug 7 00:38:03 2016 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 15:38:03 +1000 Subject: Mall directory computers In-Reply-To: <0A6BEB11-77E2-408E-99CC-AD7BE9119C98@mactec.com.au> References: <0f8a01d1dd76$dba4dff0$92ee9fd0$@bettercomputing.net> <000001d1eafa$f67c7450$e3755cf0$@internode.on.net> <000001d1eaff$467a5f40$d36f1dc0$@internode.on.net> <006601d1ebdc$5bb7f510$1327df30$@internode.on.net> <002601d1efb7$01dba300$0592e900$@internode.on.net> <0A6BEB11-77E2-408E-99CC-AD7BE9119C98@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <002501d1f06d$de9715c0$9bc54140$@internode.on.net> Now that you mention it, it came out of a Harvey World franchise Chris Kevin Parker P: 0418 815 527 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Pye Sent: Saturday, 6 August 2016 18:11 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mall directory computers > On 6 Aug 2016, at 5:49 pm, Kevin Parker wrote: > > As suggested I have removed the top cover - there was nothing accessible inside the black side cover. > > It's quite clever how its put together but what did surprise me was the TV remote control hardwired in under the Amiga. > > I've added some more photos so if anyone has any commentary or info it would be most welcome - I have yet to power it up. > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/shop-mall-commodore-64/ Hi Kevin, it appears as though the company that made that setup is still in business. http://multiscreen.biz/au/about-us I would have though that the TV/VCR remote would have had it?s IR LED close to a hole in the metal case. Do you know which travel agent it came from? If it was a major chain one, then there were probably heaps of these units around Australia. Cheers, Chris= From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 21:14:40 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 19:14:40 -0700 Subject: ISO: HP 110 AC Adapter Message-ID: Hey all -- Picked up some lovely junk at the VCF consignment table today, amongst which was an HP 110 with carrying case, floppy drive, thinkjet, and manuals (including the service manual!). Not included was a means to power this thing up. Anyone have a power supply going spare? (Maybe even someone coming to VCF tomorrow? :) Thanks as always, Josh From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Aug 7 04:13:59 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 11:13:59 +0200 Subject: HP 110 AC Adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Josh, The HP 110 uses the same ac adapter (8V AC) as the hp 41, 71b and 75 series. Those are also used for some hp peripherals. I got lots of them but am on the wrong side of the big water. But it shouldn't be too difficult to get one. The batteries of the hp 110 are sealed lead acid types, they have a very long lifespan (when keeping charged) but are sensitive to longtime storage without charge. -Rik Van: Josh Dersch From chrise at pobox.com Sun Aug 7 07:55:35 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2016 07:55:35 -0500 Subject: 6800 memory addressing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516DD14A-5A63-4BA3-B1B8-DADF4001586F@pobox.com> sorry for top post-- coming from Android thing. you definitely do not want RAM at $8000 because it will collide with the I/O block that is decoded there. If you have mp-b back plane as you stated then i/o occupies $8000 to $9fff and so RAM needs to start at $a000. The modified mp-m is to make it decode at $a000 or above because the stock circuit decoded on 4k boundaries from $0000 to $7000 only. Chris On August 7, 2016 1:56:14 AM CDT, Brad H wrote: > > >So I have the 6800 almost fully working, however I've hit one snag. ? >I loaded some of the memory diags as a first test, from txt files >posted online. ?The first couple worked ok, but the third kept hitting >an error immediately on start. ? >I thought little of it and was eager to try a bigger program. ?I tried >Blackjack. ?However I noticed when it was loading.. instead of just the >cursor remaining beside my L until loaded, it began dumping random >stuff out. >So that's when I went back to that RAM test. ?I noticed it has having >the same issue with a certain range. ?I realized then that my single >RAM board was only covering from (I think) A000 up to but not including >C000.? >So I used the jumpers on my DRC 16k boards to fill in the blanks, so to >speak. ?But I'm stuck on the last one. ?The memory check now crashes at >address 8000. ?Because my last MPM board was modified, I'm not sure how >to get that particular range. ?I'm also wondering why I only get from >A000 to C000 on my other MP-M board. ?The 16k boards can be set for >wide ranges.. say 8000 through I think FFFF (can't look at the docs as >SWTPC.COM went down tonight). ?I'm assuming the smaller RAM boards >cover less? ?With three of the four installed, I can load a program via >txt file without error but cannot run it.. if I hit G it just freezes >there. ?So I'm not sure if I need to configure a ram board for $8000 up >to $A000 or if I potentially have another problem. ?And because the >MP-M boards are both modified.. I don't know what they are/were set up >to do. >Brad > > > >Sent from my Samsung device -- Chris Elmquist From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Aug 7 09:36:17 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 07:36:17 -0700 Subject: Video From VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> <681B0202-32CE-4277-8D57-18B9CFF0E57B@gmail.com> <96BACCE4-F9ED-4651-9E17-4024CC5B75C4@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <1b0c5a72-b239-dae9-f1f4-1cbf3ca79247@jwsss.com> 6 videos from saturday, youtube playlist On 8/6/2016 5:59 PM, Kirk Davis wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjf3WkYDaEk > > Carl Claunch at Vintage Computer Festival West, Mount View CA 2016 > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 7 09:45:29 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 07:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ISO: HP 110 AC Adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > Picked up some lovely junk at the VCF consignment table today, amongst > which was an HP 110 with carrying case, floppy drive, thinkjet, and manuals > (including the service manual!). Not included was a means to power this > thing up. > > Anyone have a power supply going spare? (Maybe even someone coming to VCF > tomorrow? :) Sorry, can't help. But, while you're at it, if you also find a 20VAC brick, you could connect a wide carriage HP QuietJet to it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at pski.net Sun Aug 7 11:01:10 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 12:01:10 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Trash Talk - Live Episode Message-ID: We?re going to be recording a live episode of TRS-80 Trash Talk next Saturday, Aug 13th at 9pm EDT. If you?re into any of the machines from Tandy Radio Shack then stop by and join the fun. https://www.facebook.com/events/1044642265619305/ From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Aug 7 11:24:16 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 12:24:16 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Trash Talk - Live Episode Message-ID: <260f90.785bc109.44d8bab0@aol.com> be sure to send a reminder right before too! sounds great! I never owned one in the old days but cure saw them around and we do have them at SMECC museum project in the collection. In a message dated 8/7/2016 9:01:17 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, pete at pski.net writes: https://www.facebook.com/events/1044642265619305/ From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sun Aug 7 12:06:49 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 10:06:49 -0700 Subject: 6800 memory addressing In-Reply-To: <516DD14A-5A63-4BA3-B1B8-DADF4001586F@pobox.com> References: <516DD14A-5A63-4BA3-B1B8-DADF4001586F@pobox.com> Message-ID: <005001d1f0ce$16bed770$443c8650$@bettercomputing.net> One other thing I'm trying to understand is the addresses themselves. As it stands right now I have: Heavily modified MP-M covering $A000-BFFF DRC 16k covering $0000-3FFF DRC 16k covering $4000-7FFF Again I don't know what I'm talking about here -- but the DRC table says you could config one more for $C000-FFFF. Is that worth doing? I do have this last 4K MP-M board here. It is slightly modified with a couple of cut/changed traces. Right now it is, at least by the documentation, set as board #5, which according to this: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_M/MP_M_AssemblyInstructions.pdf is 5000-5FFF? I'm not sure how these addresses correspond to what's in the DRC guide. Could this board cover $C000 somehow? Brad From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Aug 7 12:41:16 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 10:41:16 -0700 Subject: Video From VCF West In-Reply-To: <1b0c5a72-b239-dae9-f1f4-1cbf3ca79247@jwsss.com> References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> <681B0202-32CE-4277-8D57-18B9CFF0E57B@gmail.com> <96BACCE4-F9ED-4651-9E17-4024CC5B75C4@fritzm.org> <1b0c5a72-b239-dae9-f1f4-1cbf3ca79247@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <0e9027de-d84d-4ea4-eff2-2754460aed03@jwsss.com> On 8/7/2016 7:36 AM, jim stephens wrote: > 6 videos from saturday, youtube playlist once more with the link https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5NK70kdq3-JGwb_8GXFN5SqDtbTKtLi7 From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Aug 7 12:48:34 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 13:48:34 -0400 Subject: Video From VCF West Message-ID: <261f19.1f491f5e.44d8ce6d@aol.com> Folks! in the opening part of this movie Jim pans past a large white front panel with leds and switches looks like form a Honeywell series... more details or a close up and ask the owner more about it please? Looks like a good show but I do not travel a lot #ed# In a message dated 8/7/2016 10:41:21 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwsmail at jwsss.com writes: On 8/7/2016 7:36 AM, jim stephens wrote: > 6 videos from saturday, youtube playlist once more with the link https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5NK70kdq3-JGwb_8GXFN5SqDtbTKtLi7 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 7 13:02:18 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 14:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 prices Message-ID: <20160807180218.9385818C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So that most recent PDP-11/20 (well, technically, a /15) on eBay went for $2200: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191933305000 which was a lot less than the other one _but_ this was only one drawer, only one ME11 memory, no H960, no documentation, no software, no KT11-B, etc, etc. It looks like the high bidder was the under-bidder on the previous one. Noel From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 13:09:53 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 11:09:53 -0700 Subject: Video From VCF West In-Reply-To: <261f19.1f491f5e.44d8ce6d@aol.com> References: <261f19.1f491f5e.44d8ce6d@aol.com> Message-ID: I On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 10:48 AM, wrote: > Folks! in the opening part of this movie Jim pans past a large white > front panel with leds and switches looks like form a Honeywell > series... > more details or a close up and ask the owner more about it please? > > It's part of Jim Stephens' collection, and was lent to me for VCF. It is a maintenance panel off a 6180 series machine, like the panels in your collection. The roller is missing. The text in the upper left reads "ADDRESS/SAMPLE TALLY CONDITIONS" I'll take some pictures and send you a link. -- Charles From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Aug 7 13:22:42 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 14:22:42 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 prices Message-ID: <262555.20255a02.44d8d672@aol.com> good to hear this assures me of the sanity of trading one of our 77 dx microphones for one and some other odd things In a message dated 8/7/2016 11:02:22 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu writes: So that most recent PDP-11/20 (well, technically, a /15) on eBay went for $2200: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191933305000 which was a lot less than the other one _but_ this was only one drawer, only one ME11 memory, no H960, no documentation, no software, no KT11-B, etc, etc. It looks like the high bidder was the under-bidder on the previous one. Noel From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Aug 7 13:28:33 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 14:28:33 -0400 Subject: Video From VCF West Message-ID: <262659.311a720c.44d8d7d1@aol.com> OK! thanks Charles! appreciate it! Thanks to all for the videos and photos ! Ed# In a message dated 8/7/2016 11:09:58 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, charles.unix.pro at gmail.com writes: I On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 10:48 AM, wrote: > Folks! in the opening part of this movie Jim pans past a large white > front panel with leds and switches looks like form a Honeywell > series... > more details or a close up and ask the owner more about it please? > > It's part of Jim Stephens' collection, and was lent to me for VCF. It is a maintenance panel off a 6180 series machine, like the panels in your collection. The roller is missing. The text in the upper left reads "ADDRESS/SAMPLE TALLY CONDITIONS" I'll take some pictures and send you a link. -- Charles From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Aug 7 13:41:59 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 11:41:59 -0700 Subject: Video From VCF West In-Reply-To: <262659.311a720c.44d8d7d1@aol.com> References: <262659.311a720c.44d8d7d1@aol.com> Message-ID: <69b5bc18-a441-90eb-0f30-d7f8cabb193a@jwsss.com> Photos of the panel and the entire set from the Atlanta machine are here. thanks Jim On 8/7/2016 11:28 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > OK! thanks Charles! appreciate it! > > Thanks to all for the videos and photos ! > > Ed# > > > In a message dated 8/7/2016 11:09:58 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > charles.unix.pro at gmail.com writes: > > I > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 10:48 AM, wrote: > >> Folks! in the opening part of this movie Jim pans past a large white >> front panel with leds and switches looks like form a Honeywell >> series... >> more details or a close up and ask the owner more about it please? >> >> > It's part of Jim Stephens' collection, and was lent to me for VCF. It is a > maintenance panel off a 6180 series machine, like the panels in your > collection. > > The roller is missing. > > The text in the upper left reads "ADDRESS/SAMPLE TALLY CONDITIONS" > > I'll take some pictures and send you a link. > > -- Charles > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Aug 7 13:44:58 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 11:44:58 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 prices In-Reply-To: <20160807180218.9385818C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160807180218.9385818C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <83d4f3f0-31d0-daa7-4d03-00abcbcbd9ea@jwsss.com> On 8/7/2016 11:02 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So that most recent PDP-11/20 (well, technically, a /15) on eBay went for > $2200: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/191933305000 > > which was a lot less than the other one _but_ this was only one drawer, only > one ME11 memory, no H960, no documentation, no software, no KT11-B, etc, etc. > > It looks like the high bidder was the under-bidder on the previous one. > > Noel > > I had my pockets cleaned (and still cleaning) at the consignment tables by Pavel and Vince S so far an 11/34 and Microdata paper tape reader punch. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Aug 7 13:46:15 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 14:46:15 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 prices Message-ID: <262974.366279ea.44d8dbf7@aol.com> do you collect microdata? we may have extra of their computer handbook. Ed# www/smecc.org In a message dated 8/7/2016 11:45:01 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwsmail at jwsss.com writes: On 8/7/2016 11:02 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So that most recent PDP-11/20 (well, technically, a /15) on eBay went for > $2200: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/191933305000 > > which was a lot less than the other one _but_ this was only one drawer, only > one ME11 memory, no H960, no documentation, no software, no KT11-B, etc, etc. > > It looks like the high bidder was the under-bidder on the previous one. > > Noel > > I had my pockets cleaned (and still cleaning) at the consignment tables by Pavel and Vince S so far an 11/34 and Microdata paper tape reader punch. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Aug 7 13:51:16 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 14:51:16 -0400 Subject: those unable to attend VCFhere is traffic '72 listen while watching videos.. Message-ID: <262a5f.5b01da3.44d8dd24@aol.com> For those unable to attend VCF here is a Traffic '72 live concert from Santa Monica to listen to while watching videos.. Ed# https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocjSc7v83pk From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 14:00:14 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 14:00:14 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 prices In-Reply-To: <83d4f3f0-31d0-daa7-4d03-00abcbcbd9ea@jwsss.com> References: <20160807180218.9385818C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <83d4f3f0-31d0-daa7-4d03-00abcbcbd9ea@jwsss.com> Message-ID: didnt help it was local pickup On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 1:44 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 8/7/2016 11:02 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> So that most recent PDP-11/20 (well, technically, a /15) on eBay went for >> $2200: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/191933305000 >> >> which was a lot less than the other one _but_ this was only one drawer, >> only >> one ME11 memory, no H960, no documentation, no software, no KT11-B, etc, >> etc. >> >> It looks like the high bidder was the under-bidder on the previous one. >> >> Noel >> >> >> I had my pockets cleaned (and still cleaning) at the consignment tables > by Pavel and Vince S so far an 11/34 and Microdata paper tape reader punch. > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 14:27:49 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 12:27:49 -0700 Subject: Yard sale goodies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Supposedly the guy has a full COSMAC system that he'll have for me > tomorrow. > If you pick up the rest of the COSMAC system and if it has a CDP18S651 floppy disk controller board to go along with the floppy disk drives you picked up it would be great if you could do a high resolution scan of the CDP18S651 board. I have a completely bare CDP18S651 floppy disk controller board. I haven't found a copy of the manual and/or schematic anywhere yet. With a high resolution scan of a complete board maybe at least I could figure out what components I need to populate it. -Glen From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 14:48:14 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 15:48:14 -0400 Subject: Yard sale goodies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 7, 2016 12:42 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > Supposedly the guy has a full COSMAC system that he'll have for me > > tomorrow. > > > > If you pick up the rest of the COSMAC system and if it has a CDP18S651 > floppy disk controller board to go along with the floppy disk drives > you picked up it would be great if you could do a high resolution scan > of the CDP18S651 board. > > I have a completely bare CDP18S651 floppy disk controller board. I > haven't found a copy of the manual and/or schematic anywhere yet. With > a high resolution scan of a complete board maybe at least I could > figure out what components I need to populate it. > > -Glen There are many sugars and qume drives in the consignment area of vcf west Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 7 15:23:08 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 16:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old High-Noise-Immunity Logic for swap/trade Message-ID: <20160807202308.25ED918C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, I have a small stack (~60) of assorted "High-Noise-Immunity Logic" (HNIL or HINIL) chips that I have no use for, and would like to trade for something I do have a use for. These run off like +16V; numbers are 3xxCJ (for xx=03, 21, etc); they were made by Teledyne (the line was later bought out by ITT, whose part numbers for these are ITT3xx; also, at some point passed through Telcom, whose part #'s for the series are TSC3xx). If anyone's interested, let me know, I can send you a list of what I've got. Noel From paul at mcjones.org Sun Aug 7 12:24:43 2016 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 10:24:43 -0700 Subject: VCF West - going? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D64F063-F69E-48F5-956D-A581C7789DFC@mcjones.org> Here are some photos from Saturday at VCF West: https://goo.gl/photos/GToKuQ33XwBenMJJA From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sun Aug 7 12:43:58 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 19:43:58 +0200 Subject: New photorealistic PDP-15 panel simulation for SimH Message-ID: <5e38ab7d-ae23-1535-ee49-ea01fd80aa2f@t-online.de> Hi, here are some updates to the virtual Java panels for SimH ("BlinkenBone project"): * New PDP-15. This rare 18 bit machine is a dream in White & Blue! Now we have PDP-11/20, 11/40, 11/70, PDP-8/I, PDP10/KI10 and PDP-15. * Merged with official SimH 4, timestamp 2016-06-16 * Bugfix for light patterns on the PDP-11/70 panel in "DATA PATH" knob position. Now the "running snake" idle pattern of IAS is shown correctly. * Added a 2.11 BSD UNIX installation for PDP-11/70 (yet another idle pattern!) There are precompiled distribution for Win32, Ubuntu x86 & x64, Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone. Just unzip and start. Downloads: https://github.com/j-hoppe/BlinkenBone/releases Web start page: http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone And direct to the PDP-15: http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/simulated-panels/255-simulated-pdp-15-panel Enjoy, Joerg From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sun Aug 7 16:40:11 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 14:40:11 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <49CC42C2-1F2F-4601-9ED0-582A6D726F5A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49CC42C2-1F2F-4601-9ED0-582A6D726F5A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <007101d1f0f4$474ed450$d5ec7cf0$@bettercomputing.net> Yes I believe $A000 is covered by that heavily modded MP-M board. I think the machine is basically working optimally (except for the odd time I power up and it gives me garbage, not sure what that's about.. have to fiddle with boards a bit and then it's fine again). I ended up successfully loading TSC Basic and making little programs in it. I tried the Altair BASIC with the special load file they give you but all it does is spill stuff into the prompt. I've seen a video where the fellow loaded it, and then somehow entered a command of MM in the process of setting certain things up to run it. But if I hit M it just takes me straight into changing a register the usual way. Basically I think I have to educate myself a bit here on loading, etc. I'd love to find out more about this Newtech sound card too.. I've seen it in use in some videos but strangely no documentation on it at SWTPC.COM. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 10:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 Do you have some RAM at $A000+ yet? That's all that should matter as far as required RAM goes. Presuming this is the holley page you were referring to: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/HiTerm/Test6800_Index.html he does mention RAM needed at A000 for the BUGs, as Chris and I have been saying. Without RAM there there's no stack for return addresses for subroutines executed in the BUGs, so execution could head off to wherever. On 2016-Aug-05, at 10:23 PM, Brad H wrote: > Okay so.. I decided to try the MP-C board out, just for kicks. No change. > Then I decided to add one of the RAM boards.. the next one up in addresses. Got a little bit when I powered on. Added one of the old MPM boards.. one that has memory chips all piggybacked on one another. Now when I powered up, the system was sending four or five characters at a time, linefeed, four or five characters at a time, linefeed ad infinitum. I added the final MPM board.. zero. > So.. I think we do have some ram problems.. most likely. I'm thinking it would be easiest to concentrate efforts on the socketed RAM boards.. test all the RAM out. I'm going to read up on addressing and try to understand a bit better what is going on. I'm thinking maybe I need to reconfigure the addressing on one of the boards to match whatever that overstuffed MPM board is set to. > Until I get an oscilloscope.. fooling around is about all I can do here. > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chuck Guzis > Date: 2016-08-05 3:55 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: >> I think I will have to figure out how to do that. Additionally I >> have one of those PC based oscilloscopes on the way. I don't know >> how to use them 100% but I'm about to learn I guess. :) >> >> I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 >> terminals and would really like this system to work with one of >> those. However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I >> think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers. I'm a bit >> reluctant to try pulling them apart to get in there and fix that. Is >> there a way to change the parity, etc settings on the SWTPC to match >> the terminal? Is it necessary? > > Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so > much for video terminals. But you'll have to change the hardwired > jumpers--the UART used in the CT1024 is not software-programmable. > > If this were my unit, I"d probably solder some pins into the pad holes > and then either use slide on jumpers or wirewrap to set the > characteristics. That way, when changing things around, you won't be > stressing the PCB. > > Something like this: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-20CFemale-to-Female-1-Pin-Plug-Jumper-Ca > ble-Wires-Multicolor-K-/262158878688?hash=item3d09e307e0:g:B-MAAOSwwE5 > WVLR6 > > Search on "female jumper wires" From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 18:49:07 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 18:49:07 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Trash Talk - Live Episode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What sort of stuff do you tend to cover? My interest in Tandy / RS machines is mostly limited to the Model 100/102 machines, with which I have some familiarity. The Model 100 line are my "favorite" of the early pre-PC / DOS portables. The dang things are just so friendly and usable.. and what kind of modern laptop / netbook boasts a full-stroke keyboard and 30+ HR battery life? They have some seriously practical features, and the small screen & RAM space isn't really all that limited with the programming conventions and ethos of that era. On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > We?re going to be recording a live episode of TRS-80 Trash Talk next > Saturday, Aug 13th at 9pm EDT. If you?re into any of the machines from > Tandy Radio Shack then stop by and join the fun. > > https://www.facebook.com/events/1044642265619305/ > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Aug 7 21:29:30 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 22:29:30 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Trash Talk - Live Episode Message-ID: <18c26c.1df31898.44d9488a@aol.com> I am up for some 100/102 talk! That unit is actually a big interest as not only are they vintage computers, but they fit in another of our displays, "The tools of the journalist" . As a matter of fact we are looking for another to go in the display in our university's journalism college we have offsite.. It does not need to work just look nice! There RS Computers were a great tool to remotely post stories... and the 100 fit in any carry on bag! let us know if there is a unit you can share! Ed Sharpe Archaist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 8/7/2016 4:49:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, drlegendre at gmail.com writes: What sort of stuff do you tend to cover? My interest in Tandy / RS machines is mostly limited to the Model 100/102 machines, with which I have some familiarity. The Model 100 line are my "favorite" of the early pre-PC / DOS portables. The dang things are just so friendly and usable.. and what kind of modern laptop / netbook boasts a full-stroke keyboard and 30+ HR battery life? They have some seriously practical features, and the small screen & RAM space isn't really all that limited with the programming conventions and ethos of that era. On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > We?re going to be recording a live episode of TRS-80 Trash Talk next > Saturday, Aug 13th at 9pm EDT. If you?re into any of the machines from > Tandy Radio Shack then stop by and join the fun. > > https://www.facebook.com/events/1044642265619305/ > > From pete at pski.net Sun Aug 7 22:15:59 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 23:15:59 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Trash Talk - Live Episode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85D45195-E61F-46D7-9E21-9AC7BD682CE0@pski.net> > On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > >> We?re going to be recording a live episode of TRS-80 Trash Talk next >> Saturday, Aug 13th at 9pm EDT. If you?re into any of the machines from >> Tandy Radio Shack then stop by and join the fun. >> >> https://www.facebook.com/events/1044642265619305/ > On Aug 7, 2016, at 7:49 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > What sort of stuff do you tend to cover? My interest in Tandy / RS machines > is mostly limited to the Model 100/102 machines, with which I have some > familiarity. > We?ve tended to focus mostly on the Model I/III/4 and some on the Model II/16 so far. Randy Kindig is a co-host and he?s been the most active about bringing in the 100 ideas. He has a few news items in our last show covering the 100. Our goal is to be inclusive of all the TRS-80s, including 100, PC-1, Coco, etc. as well. ie. I?d love to have a Model 100 Buyer?s Guide show in the future. This first live show itself is somewhat of an experiment to see how well it can be done, how well we can engage with the audience, how many people are interested, etc. From brain at jbrain.com Sun Aug 7 22:28:18 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 22:28:18 -0500 Subject: Livingston PortMaster 2e Message-ID: <0fe693a1-1493-4299-3a76-b83046f2d072@jbrain.com> No questions, and nothing of interest, but a quick story of success. Not sure if PortMasters are on topic or not, but I picked a 20 port unit up at VCF-SE #2 in 2014 and it has sat on my shelf for 2 years as I tried to find a large block of time to get it working. Having never used a unit in the past, I somewhat dreaded the learning curve. Circumstances forced it to be moved, and I thought last night, instead of just putting it back, I'd try to get it going. Grabbed a null modem cable, gender changer, plugged into port 0, fired it up, started a term, and almost immediately got to a prompt! A quick dload of the PortMaster config guide, logging in as !root without a password, and I was in. Some of it was luck (the Port 0 was in console mode, and my term just happened to be at 9600 bps, 8N1), but having the docs easily accessible and not requiring a special Windows App or some other nonsense was half the battle. 20 minutes later, I had the unit configured to accept incoming direct connections from old equipment, with my userid set to no password with functionality to prompt for the server name upon login. That was awesome. On the other hand, after the 2e was up, I started investigating the AWAN 3883 Terminal Server I had lying here. Web sources and config guides kept pointing me to a Windows App to configure, and it looks to need adapters to connect to RS232 (not as big a deal, but still a irritant), so I put it in my pile to give away. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From other at oryx.us Sun Aug 7 23:10:35 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2016 23:10:35 -0500 Subject: Livingston PortMaster 2e In-Reply-To: <0fe693a1-1493-4299-3a76-b83046f2d072@jbrain.com> References: <0fe693a1-1493-4299-3a76-b83046f2d072@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <57A8063B.7070806@oryx.us> My experience with Livingston PortMasters was a great experience. PortMasters, Cisco 2511 w/Octopus cables, and lots of US Robotics modems encompassed my early ISP experiences. If I recall correctly, Livingston came up with the RADIUS authentication protocol, and open-sourced it for us all to enjoy. Lots of fun with RADIUS and TACACS in its various forms. I have not had the opportunity to work with the DIAMETER protocol yet. Thanks for sharing. Jerry On 08/ 7/16 10:28 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > No questions, and nothing of interest, but a quick story of success. > > Not sure if PortMasters are on topic or not, but I picked a 20 port unit up at > VCF-SE #2 in 2014 and it has sat on my shelf for 2 years as I tried to find a > large block of time to get it working. Having never used a unit in the past, I > somewhat dreaded the learning curve. > > Circumstances forced it to be moved, and I thought last night, instead of just > putting it back, I'd try to get it going. Grabbed a null modem cable, gender > changer, plugged into port 0, fired it up, started a term, and almost > immediately got to a prompt! A quick dload of the PortMaster config guide, > logging in as !root without a password, and I was in. > > Some of it was luck (the Port 0 was in console mode, and my term just happened > to be at 9600 bps, 8N1), but having the docs easily accessible and not requiring > a special Windows App or some other nonsense was half the battle. 20 minutes > later, I had the unit configured to accept incoming direct connections from old > equipment, with my userid set to no password with functionality to prompt for > the server name upon login. > > That was awesome. > > On the other hand, after the 2e was up, I started investigating the AWAN 3883 > Terminal Server I had lying here. Web sources and config guides kept pointing > me to a Windows App to configure, and it looks to need adapters to connect to > RS232 (not as big a deal, but still a irritant), so I put it in my pile to give > away. > > Jim > From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 23:52:18 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 22:52:18 -0600 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > My ADPLL data separator has parameters to control the proportions of > frequency adjustment and instantaneous phase adjustment that are done > at each flux transition. I've experimented with the parameters quite a > bit, but it's still not good enough to reliably recover all sectors > from the disk images that started this thread. The default parameters > are currently 0.5% frequency adjustment and 10% instantaneous phase > adjustment. I was actually fairly surprised that I didn't get better > results with more frequency adjustment and less instantaneous phase > adjustment. It's entirely possible that my algorithm isn't very good. Of the four Intel M2FM disk images I've tried, which are single-sided 77 track 52 sector 128 byte, for a total of 4004 sectors, I get 3990, 3981, 4004, and 3976 sectors read apparently correctly (without CRC error). That's more than 99.3%, which isn't good enough. Can anyone share a sample DiscFerret image (.dfi) of a normal double-density (MFM) disk? I don't think my data separator performance should be much different for MFM vs. Intel M2FM, but it would be nice to give it a try. I've built my own floppy imager hardware, but I haven't yet written firmware for it: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/26782411256/ It's a daughterboard for an Artix 7 FPGA board that Emanuel Stiebler made. The only thing wrong with his FPGA board is that it isn't readily available. The daughterboard just has SN7438 drivers and SN74LS14 Schmitt triggers, terminators, and series resistors for 5V tolerance. There's also a SMC FDC92C39B data separator on the daughterboard, but it's not actually in the floppy data path. All of its I/O signals go to the FPGA. It's there to serve as a reference for comparison. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 8 13:17:10 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 11:17:10 -0700 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d2f41e4-5059-67e7-bc12-73df43fada37@sydex.com> On 08/06/2016 04:12 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Because the cwtool support for Intel M2FM floppy disk flux images > isn't publicly available, I've written a crude Python 3 program for > converting such images (in DFI format) to ImageDisk images, and put > it on github: > > https://github.com/brouhaha/dfitoimd Interesting, Eric! I did my cw-MMFM converter in 32-bit C years ago, but then I use my own format for the cw files (i.e. I don't use cwtools), so it's probably not a lot of use to folks--but it's fast. Metadata is important to me and I pack my cw image files with as much as possible. I record two revolutions worth of data per track to get *everything* and also to give an implied second chance at data that the first rev may have missed. To date, on Intel and AES MMFM (they're different) disks, I'm batting 100%. While I can appreciate wanting to do decoding real-time (i.e. reading and decoding), the cw approach does give you the option of going back over the data without the need to stress the disk as many times as one would care. One can, for example, insert missing transition data where dropouts may have occurred on the disk. And accumulating sample data is pretty much child's play nowadays. I have a rig with an micro SD card, an STM32 "maple mini" board and a couple of TTL driver ICs that works a treat. It probably set me back less than $10--and it has USB connectivity, though it can't be powered by the USB port--a 150 ohm terminated floppy drive just pulls too much current to be safe. --Chuck P.S. On my bucket list, I'm curious if anyone's ever worked out the internals of the WD9914 data separator chip. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 13:50:51 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2016 11:50:51 -0700 Subject: Video From VCF West In-Reply-To: <0e9027de-d84d-4ea4-eff2-2754460aed03@jwsss.com> References: <001d01d1ee86$05149b80$0f3dd280$@net> <681B0202-32CE-4277-8D57-18B9CFF0E57B@gmail.com> <96BACCE4-F9ED-4651-9E17-4024CC5B75C4@fritzm.org> <1b0c5a72-b239-dae9-f1f4-1cbf3ca79247@jwsss.com> <0e9027de-d84d-4ea4-eff2-2754460aed03@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <91512696-2DE4-4237-B199-D448BA33411A@gmail.com> Here is my video with excerpts from the show: https://youtu.be/2bbsgfanbE0 Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "jwsmail at jwsss.com" Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 10:41 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Video From VCF West On 8/7/2016 7:36 AM, jim stephens wrote: 6 videos from saturday, youtube playlist once more with the link https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5NK70kdq3-JGwb_8GXFN5SqDtbTKtLi7 From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 13:56:30 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 12:56:30 -0600 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: <4d2f41e4-5059-67e7-bc12-73df43fada37@sydex.com> References: <4d2f41e4-5059-67e7-bc12-73df43fada37@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I did my cw-MMFM converter in 32-bit C years ago, but then I use my own > format for the cw files (i.e. I don't use cwtools), so it's probably not > a lot of use to folks--but it's fast. Metadata is important to me and I > pack my cw image files with as much as possible. If you're willing to share the code, I'd be interested in taking a look. > I record two revolutions worth of data per track to get *everything* and > also to give an implied second chance at data that the first rev may > have missed. The dfi images I'm working with have two revolutions. One limitation (bug?) in my current data separator code is that the "VCO" of my ADPLL always starts at the nominal frequency when the code starts processing a track, rather than the frequency it settled to on the previous track. I should change that on the assumption that the rotation rate is generally going to be the same for all tracks. Anyhow, right now the code processes both rotations (or as many as are represented in the dfi image), but with only a single pass, so sometimes it doesn't successfully decode a sector in the first revolution, but gets it in the second. I should change the code so that if there's only one revolution in the file, it cycles through it twice (or a configurable number), to give the ADPLL a chance to settle. > To date, on Intel and AES MMFM (they're different) disks, I'm batting 100%. Is there any documentation about AES MMFM format online? So far I haven't encountered any two M2FM/MMFM formats that are the same. > P.S. On my bucket list, I'm curious if anyone's ever worked out the > internals of the WD9914 data separator chip. Typo in the part number? The WD9914 is WD's second source (or clone?) of the TMS9914 GPIB chip. I was able to find some info on the internals of the SMC FD9216 data separator. WD second-sourced that as the WD9216. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 8 14:19:46 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 12:19:46 -0700 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: References: <4d2f41e4-5059-67e7-bc12-73df43fada37@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7b0f42ac-5e78-9f6f-af84-3e90071f4ef2@sydex.com> On 08/08/2016 11:56 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > If you're willing to share the code, I'd be interested in taking a > look. I'll see what I can do to come up with something. It's going to be Win32-based. > Is there any documentation about AES MMFM format online? Not that I know of--heck, I can't find any documentation on the original machine as it is. I had to "brute force" that one; complicated a bit by the bit order being backward (i.e. USART order, not floppy order). To date, I still don't know what the machine model is--just have the floppy written by some journalist back in the 70s. > Typo in the part number? The WD9914 is WD's second source (or > clone?) of the TMS9914 GPIB chip. > > I was able to find some info on the internals of the SMC FD9216 data > separator. WD second-sourced that as the WD9216. Yeah, that one--brain fart on my part--I was looking at the WD data comm products book, which looks just the same as the storage management products book and picked out what I thought was the data separator. Regardless, I'd like to see what the 9216 details are. I suspect it's nothing more than a counter-based data separator, but it's remarkable for how well it works. Shouldn't be hard to incorporate into an FPGA or even a CPLD. --Chuck > -- --Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------- "The first thing we do, let's kill all the spammers." From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 14:51:17 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 13:51:17 -0600 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: <7b0f42ac-5e78-9f6f-af84-3e90071f4ef2@sydex.com> References: <4d2f41e4-5059-67e7-bc12-73df43fada37@sydex.com> <7b0f42ac-5e78-9f6f-af84-3e90071f4ef2@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/08/2016 11:56 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> I was able to find some info on the internals of the SMC FD9216 data >> separator. WD second-sourced that as the WD9216. > > Yeah, that one [...] I'd like to see what the 9216 details are. I suspect it's > nothing more than a counter-based data separator, but it's remarkable > for how well it works. Shouldn't be hard to incorporate into an FPGA or > even a CPLD. The FDC9216 is actually a fair bit more sophisticated than the typical counter-based data separator, which is probably why it works so well. For details, see US patent 4,472,818: https://www.google.com/patents/US4472818 >From a photomicrograph of the FDC9216 I've discerned that the PLA contents in the production part don't exactly match the patent. The same (or extremely similar) separator is used in the FDC9229, which adds write precompensation and head load timing circuitry. A photomicrograph shows that the PLA contents are very slightly tweaked from the FDC9216. SMC later introduced the FDC92C16 and FDC92C36, an improved CMOS datas eparator, pin-compatible with the FD92C16 but operating at twice the internal frequency. The difference between the two is the polarity of the SEPD output. The FDC92C39 used the improved data separator and was pin-compatible with the FDC9229. I don't (yet?) have photomicrographs of the improved CMOS parts. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Aug 8 15:07:16 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2016 13:07:16 -0700 Subject: Video From VCF West Message-ID: Very cool stuff! ?Thanks so much to everyone providing videos. I'm curious.. I had heard Michael Holley would be there with a bunch of SWTPC stuff.. did that happen? Brad Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Curious Marc Date: 2016-08-08 11:50 AM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Video From VCF West Here is my video with excerpts from the show: https://youtu.be/2bbsgfanbE0 Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "jwsmail at jwsss.com" Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 10:41 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Video From VCF West On 8/7/2016 7:36 AM, jim stephens wrote: 6 videos from saturday, youtube playlist once more with the link https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5NK70kdq3-JGwb_8GXFN5SqDtbTKtLi7 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 8 15:15:22 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 13:15:22 -0700 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: References: <4d2f41e4-5059-67e7-bc12-73df43fada37@sydex.com> <7b0f42ac-5e78-9f6f-af84-3e90071f4ef2@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 08/08/2016 12:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > From a photomicrograph of the FDC9216 I've discerned that the PLA > contents in the production part don't exactly match the patent. "... includes a logic function array which implements a predetermined algorithm". Ah, yes, the magic in the mixture. Thanks for the link to the patent. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 8 15:33:52 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 13:33:52 -0700 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76b4639a-5970-286f-79d3-4f158660554c@bitsavers.org> On 8/7/16 9:52 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Of the four Intel M2FM disk images I've tried, which are single-sided > 77 track 52 sector 128 byte, for a total of 4004 sectors, I get 3990, > 3981, 4004, and 3976 sectors read apparently correctly (without CRC > error). That's more than 99.3%, which isn't good enough. > is there any correlation between creation dates of the files and the failure rate? i'm wondering if the heads started to clog farther into the imaging session. he didn't say how often he cleaned the heads. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 8 15:36:01 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 13:36:01 -0700 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: <76b4639a-5970-286f-79d3-4f158660554c@bitsavers.org> References: <76b4639a-5970-286f-79d3-4f158660554c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49b0cb79-f3c1-9780-2827-1d855dc4b509@bitsavers.org> On 8/8/16 1:33 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 8/7/16 9:52 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Of the four Intel M2FM disk images I've tried, which are single-sided >> 77 track 52 sector 128 byte, for a total of 4004 sectors, I get 3990, >> 3981, 4004, and 3976 sectors read apparently correctly (without CRC >> error). That's more than 99.3%, which isn't good enough. >> > > is there any correlation between creation dates of the files and the failure rate? > > i'm wondering if the heads started to clog farther into the imaging session. > > he didn't say how often he cleaned the heads. > > that is a big problem with acquisition not concurrent with analysis. From cube1 at charter.net Sun Aug 7 21:53:34 2016 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 21:53:34 -0500 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <946363E2-3CBC-4D08-B765-CB8F072245F0@charter.net> Folks, I do have a version of software that supports READING Intel m2fm on a cat weasel, and will post a link in the coming days - just got back from a road trip. Sent from my iPad > On Aug 6, 2016, at 18:12, Eric Smith wrote: > > Because the cwtool support for Intel M2FM floppy disk flux images > isn't publicly available, I've written a crude Python 3 program for > converting such images (in DFI format) to ImageDisk images, and put it > on github: > > https://github.com/brouhaha/dfitoimd > > My ADPLL data separator has parameters to control the proportions of > frequency adjustment and instantaneous phase adjustment that are done > at each flux transition. I've experimented with the parameters quite a > bit, but it's still not good enough to reliably recover all sectors > from the disk images that started this thread. The default parameters > are currently 0.5% frequency adjustment and 10% instantaneous phase > adjustment. I was actually fairly surprised that I didn't get better > results with more frequency adjustment and less instantaneous phase > adjustment. It's entirely possible that my algorithm isn't very good. > > The code can handle normal IBM 3740 single-density FM format as well, > though there are other published programs that already do that. > There's a start at code for IBM System/34 double-density MFM format > also, but it hasn't been tested at all as I don't happen to have any > suitable DFI images. > > The dfitoimd program is quite slow; on a typical Intel M2FM image with > two revolutions per track and 25 MHz sampling, it takes 64 seconds on > a 4.0 GHz AMD CPU. I'm pretty sure that rewriting it in C/C++/C# or > the like would make it much faster, but I specifically chose Python as > I find it easier to experiment with the algorithms. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 22:39:21 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2016 21:39:21 -0600 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: <946363E2-3CBC-4D08-B765-CB8F072245F0@charter.net> References: <946363E2-3CBC-4D08-B765-CB8F072245F0@charter.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 8:53 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Folks, I do have a version of software that supports READING Intel m2fm on a cat weasel, and will post a link in the coming days - just got back from a road trip. That's great! I look forward to seeing it, even though I don't have a Catweasel. :-) From denise.devries at flinders.edu.au Mon Aug 8 03:00:24 2016 From: denise.devries at flinders.edu.au (Denise de Vries) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 08:00:24 +0000 Subject: 8 inch disks - help needed identifying format Message-ID: Thanks Rik and Eric for your information. BTW it was the HP Museum who directed me to this list. Denise From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Aug 8 04:52:01 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 11:52:01 +0200 Subject: 8 inch disks - help needed identifying format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01d1f15a$84260590$8c7210b0$@xs4all.nl> Denise, If you have a HP 9895 and a HP-IB adapter for a PC, you can use the HPDIR software to read the files. http://hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdir/ Another way to read the files is using a HP 9845B/T or C and transfer the files through a HP 98036A or 98046A serial interface. http://hp9845.net/9845/tutorials/pcconnect/ -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Denise de Vries > Verzonden: maandag 8 augustus 2016 10:00 > Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: 8 inch disks - help needed identifying format > > Thanks Rik and Eric for your information. > > BTW it was the HP Museum who directed me to this list. > > > Denise From ethan at users.757.org Mon Aug 8 09:08:58 2016 From: ethan at users.757.org (ethan at users.757.org) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 10:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Livingston PortMaster 2e In-Reply-To: <57A8063B.7070806@oryx.us> References: <0fe693a1-1493-4299-3a76-b83046f2d072@jbrain.com> <57A8063B.7070806@oryx.us> Message-ID: > My experience with Livingston PortMasters was a great experience. > PortMasters, Cisco 2511 w/Octopus cables, and lots of US Robotics modems > encompassed my early ISP experiences. > If I recall correctly, Livingston came up with the RADIUS authentication > protocol, and open-sourced it for us all to enjoy. > Lots of fun with RADIUS and TACACS in its various forms. I have not had the > opportunity to work with the DIAMETER protocol yet. > Thanks for sharing. > Jerry I have a few PM-25E fan out cables and maybe a PM-25 that could probably use a home! -- Ethan O'Toole From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 10:01:57 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 11:01:57 -0400 Subject: CCS S-100 system avail in Minneapolis Message-ID: I was contacted about a CCS S-100 system available for pickup in the Minneapolis area. Contact me privately. Includes CP/M software, etc. A full station wagon full of stuff/docs. I don't know the guy, just trying to help out. http://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 15:48:50 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 16:48:50 -0400 Subject: Honeywell 440 Message-ID: Jim and Sherman (?), I checked and I don't have anything on the Honeywell 440 or anything like a re-branded Honeywell sold by GE. I think that the name "General Electric" printed on the back was due to the fact that they owned the Honeywell 440 and used it internally. It's not a GE PAC or anything like that. http://vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/HoneyWell_440_front-panel_1.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/HoneyWell_440_front-panel_2.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/HoneyWell_440_front-panel-tag.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/HoneyWell_440_rear-panel_General-Electric.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/HoneyWell_440_placard.jpg -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Aug 8 15:51:08 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 16:51:08 -0400 Subject: Honeywell 440 Message-ID: <78d16.52dca462.44da4abc@aol.com> this is just like our ge 400 operators desk panel thingie! GE GE! In a message dated 8/8/2016 1:48:56 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, billdegnan at gmail.com writes: Jim and Sherman (?), I checked and I don't have anything on the Honeywell 440 or anything like a re-branded Honeywell sold by GE. I think that the name "General Electric" printed on the back was due to the fact that they owned the Honeywell 440 and used it internally. It's not a GE PAC or anything like that. http://vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/HoneyWell_440_front-panel_1.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/HoneyWell_440_front-panel_2.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/HoneyWell_440_front-panel-tag.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/HoneyWell_440_rear-panel_General-Ele ctric.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/HoneyWell_440_placard.jpg -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 8 16:18:49 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 14:18:49 -0700 Subject: Honeywell 440 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/8/16 1:48 PM, william degnan wrote: > Jim and Sherman (?), > > I checked and I don't have anything on the Honeywell 440 or anything like a > re-branded Honeywell sold by GE. It is a GE 400-series control console you can see the maint panel on page 281 of bitsavers.org/pdf/ge/GE-4xx/CPB-320_GE425-435_RefMan_Dec63.pdf From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 8 16:23:42 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 14:23:42 -0700 Subject: Honeywell 440 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: and Honeywell bought the GE computer operation in 1970. I'd have to do more research to see if the 400-series was still being produced after the purchase. On 8/8/16 2:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 8/8/16 1:48 PM, william degnan wrote: >> Jim and Sherman (?), >> >> I checked and I don't have anything on the Honeywell 440 or anything like a >> re-branded Honeywell sold by GE. > > > It is a GE 400-series control console > you can see the maint panel on page 281 of > > bitsavers.org/pdf/ge/GE-4xx/CPB-320_GE425-435_RefMan_Dec63.pdf > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 8 16:29:49 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 14:29:49 -0700 Subject: Honeywell 440 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: According to the Computers and Automation census, the first delivery of the 440 T/S was Jul, 69. After the sale, it shows up in the census under Honeywell as the G440 T/S. It's a pretty rare machine. It dissappears in Mar '72 with no known installations. On 8/8/16 2:23 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > and Honeywell bought the GE computer operation in 1970. > I'd have to do more research to see if the 400-series was still > being produced after the purchase. > > On 8/8/16 2:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >> On 8/8/16 1:48 PM, william degnan wrote: >>> Jim and Sherman (?), >>> >>> I checked and I don't have anything on the Honeywell 440 or anything like a >>> re-branded Honeywell sold by GE. >> >> >> It is a GE 400-series control console >> you can see the maint panel on page 281 of >> >> bitsavers.org/pdf/ge/GE-4xx/CPB-320_GE425-435_RefMan_Dec63.pdf >> >> >> > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Aug 8 16:45:54 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 17:45:54 -0400 Subject: Honeywell 440 Message-ID: <7a0c5.1b6e96c6.44da5792@aol.com> I would certainly buy that desk and panel and get it back to phoenix! who ever has it/ ended up with it please contact us off list. Being that we are in the home of GE computer in the Metro Phx arrea we strive to bring some of these things back for display... It was sad watching them hack up all the off lease systems that came back at apache street. I even saw some 210 225 etc etc stuff hacked apart.... In a message dated 8/8/2016 2:28:35 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, aek at bitsavers.org writes: According to the Computers and Automation census, the first delivery of the 440 T/S was Jul, 69. After the sale, it shows up in the census under Honeywell as the G440 T/S. It's a pretty rare machine. It dissappears in Mar '72 with no known installations. On 8/8/16 2:23 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > and Honeywell bought the GE computer operation in 1970. > I'd have to do more research to see if the 400-series was still > being produced after the purchase. > > On 8/8/16 2:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >> On 8/8/16 1:48 PM, william degnan wrote: >>> Jim and Sherman (?), >>> >>> I checked and I don't have anything on the Honeywell 440 or anything like a >>> re-branded Honeywell sold by GE. >> >> >> It is a GE 400-series control console >> you can see the maint panel on page 281 of >> >> bitsavers.org/pdf/ge/GE-4xx/CPB-320_GE425-435_RefMan_Dec63.pdf >> >> >> > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 16:50:43 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 17:50:43 -0400 Subject: Honeywell 440 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > According to the Computers and Automation census, the first delivery of the > 440 T/S was Jul, 69. After the sale, it shows up in the census under > Honeywell > as the G440 T/S. It's a pretty rare machine. It dissappears in Mar '72 > with no > known installations. > > I did check the KeyData Computer Characteristics Review of 1969, but I did not see it there. I have Vol 9 #2, not sure when exactly in 1969 or thereabouts it was actually written or published. I just now checked the Auerbach Computer Characteristics Digest of 4/1969 and I *did* find the GE 440 CPU there. $7,000 monthly rental, purchase price of $311,000 In the same digest, the Honeywell model 440 is part of the H-400 system. It's an expensive I/O thing not a CPU. At the time the Honeywell 440 was their name for their "Optical Scanning Unit and Control" with the note: Not available for new orders. $2530/mo and $121,440 to buy. So, to find a Honeywell 440 nameplate prob means it was for something produced after 1969, at least according to my sources. Bill From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Aug 8 17:02:38 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 18:02:38 -0400 Subject: Honeywell 440 Message-ID: <7a646.59300835.44da5b7e@aol.com> the fact it is rebranded suggests an older product indeed.... with a new name tag so who owns this thing now!??? Ed# In a message dated 8/8/2016 2:50:47 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, billdegnan at gmail.com writes: On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > According to the Computers and Automation census, the first delivery of the > 440 T/S was Jul, 69. After the sale, it shows up in the census under > Honeywell > as the G440 T/S. It's a pretty rare machine. It dissappears in Mar '72 > with no > known installations. > > I did check the KeyData Computer Characteristics Review of 1969, but I did not see it there. I have Vol 9 #2, not sure when exactly in 1969 or thereabouts it was actually written or published. I just now checked the Auerbach Computer Characteristics Digest of 4/1969 and I *did* find the GE 440 CPU there. $7,000 monthly rental, purchase price of $311,000 In the same digest, the Honeywell model 440 is part of the H-400 system. It's an expensive I/O thing not a CPU. At the time the Honeywell 440 was their name for their "Optical Scanning Unit and Control" with the note: Not available for new orders. $2530/mo and $121,440 to buy. So, to find a Honeywell 440 nameplate prob means it was for something produced after 1969, at least according to my sources. Bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 8 17:51:06 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 22:51:06 +0000 Subject: Video From VCF West In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is some more pictures that at least show my setup at VCF. There was much more that the other pictures didn't show besides mine. There were 30 exhibits. So far it is like looking through a key hole compared to what was there. Dwight https://techcrunch.com/gallery/how-far-weve-come-the-top-5-retro-gadgets-from-the-vintage-computer-festival/ [https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/dsc09901.jpg?w=764&h=140&crop=1] How far we?ve come: The top 5 retro gadgets from the Vintage Computer Festival techcrunch.com VR in the 90s? Computers with gears? TechCrunch brings you five of the coolest retro gadgets and gizmos from this weekend's Vintage Computer Festival West XI.. ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brad H Sent: Monday, August 8, 2016 1:07:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Video From VCF West Very cool stuff! Thanks so much to everyone providing videos. I'm curious.. I had heard Michael Holley would be there with a bunch of SWTPC stuff.. did that happen? Brad Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Curious Marc Date: 2016-08-08 11:50 AM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Video From VCF West Here is my video with excerpts from the show: https://youtu.be/2bbsgfanbE0 Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "jwsmail at jwsss.com" Reply-To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 10:41 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Video From VCF West On 8/7/2016 7:36 AM, jim stephens wrote: 6 videos from saturday, youtube playlist once more with the link https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5NK70kdq3-JGwb_8GXFN5SqDtbTKtLi7 From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 18:10:52 2016 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 19:10:52 -0400 Subject: OT: Creative reuse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know the content of this picture is probably way too new for this list, but I figured people on here might appreciate it. I work at Pepboys and I snapped this picture a few days ago. I love this person's reuse of something they apparently don't have a use for anymore. I'm sorry if this email offends anyone http://i63.tinypic.com/28ahk06.jpg Joe From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Aug 8 18:17:24 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2016 19:17:24 -0400 Subject: OT: Creative reuse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5163DEC6-1402-43C0-A5B2-AA4E3E99E7CF@verizon.net> I guess your customer switched to WiFi? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 8, 2016, at 7:10 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > I know the content of this picture is probably way too new for this list, > but I figured people on here might appreciate it. I work at Pepboys and I > snapped this picture a few days ago. I love this person's reuse of > something they apparently don't have a use for anymore. > > I'm sorry if this email offends anyone > > http://i63.tinypic.com/28ahk06.jpg > > Joe From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Aug 8 18:55:45 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2016 16:55:45 -0700 Subject: OT: Creative reuse Message-ID: Valid use... ?when network cables ?loose the litthe anchor tab I get another of the never ending ?stack the old ones tie trees to stakes... hold crates together etc.. the uses are infinite... never recrimped a new connector on them.Somehow the stack refills....Ed# Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Richard Cini Date: 8/8/16 16:17 (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: OT: Creative reuse I guess your customer switched to WiFi? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 8, 2016, at 7:10 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > I know the content of this picture is probably way too new for this list, > but I figured people on here might appreciate it. I work at Pepboys and I > snapped this picture a few days ago. I love this person's reuse of > something they apparently don't have a use for anymore. > > I'm sorry if this email offends anyone > > http://i63.tinypic.com/28ahk06.jpg > > Joe From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Aug 8 16:01:33 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 17:01:33 -0400 Subject: Honeywell 440 Message-ID: <790f5.16f852d1.44da4d2d@aol.com> absolutely wrong. In a message dated 8/8/2016 1:48:56 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, billdegnan at gmail.com writes: "General Electric" printed on the back was due to the fact that they owned the Honeywell 440 and used it internally. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 16:49:41 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 16:49:41 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 11 Updates and Special Guest Message-ID: Hello retro fans - we are approaching the one month point before the Eleventh Vintage Computer Festival Midwest and plans are quickly coming together. Here are a few announcements and updates to bring you up to speed: - We're happy to announce our very special guest speaker, former Commodore engineer, Bil Herd! Bil will deliver an entertaining 90-minute talk and Q&A on his time at Commodore and his many post-Commodore adventures in engineering that continue today. - We are going to be packed FULL! And that means full of great exhibits, including the ones listed here: http://vcfmw.org/ex.html. The main hall's tables are all accounted for but there will be some unassigned space in one of the side rooms for late-comers and impromptu displays. - VCFMW Auction - an experiment last year, now a feature! Quality entertainment and a fundraiser for the show, 4pm Saturday will see another auction of donated items at low starting bids. If you have items you wish to donate for auction, please get in touch with show organizers Friday night or early Saturday. Auctions items need not be classic computing related. No registration is required for the auction. - The Free Pile tradition continues! One corner of the "Grove" side room (http://vcfmw.org/HIEGV_FloorplanDetail.jpg) will be dedicated to the infamous Free Pile - leave your junk there but be prepared to take it home if it's still there Sunday afternoon! No printers, please! - Hotel rooms are still available at the $84/night convention rate; please follow the link at http://vcfmw.org or use the code "VCF" when calling the hotel; if you are unable to obtain the con rate, please let me know as I may have to ask the hotel to expand the reservation block. - We remind you that VCF Midwest is a community-funded show; we receive no funding from any other organization. If you appreciate what we do and you are able, please visit the donation links on our site at http://vcfmw.org. Please feel free to help us get the word out and re-post this message in your favorite vintage-related forum. Thank you for your interest and support and we'll see you in September! -j From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 20:27:29 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 20:27:29 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 11 Updates and Special Guest Message-ID: Hello retro fans - we are approaching the one month point before the Eleventh Vintage Computer Festival Midwest and plans are quickly coming together. Here are a few announcements and updates to bring you up to speed: - We're happy to announce our very special guest speaker, former Commodore engineer, Bil Herd! Bil will deliver an entertaining 90-minute talk and Q&A on his time at Commodore and his many post-Commodore adventures in engineering that continue today. - We are going to be packed FULL! And that means full of great exhibits, including the ones listed here: http://vcfmw.org/ex.html. The main hall's tables are all accounted for but there will be some unassigned space in one of the side rooms for late-comers and impromptu displays. - VCFMW Auction - an experiment last year, now a feature! Quality entertainment and a fundraiser for the show, 4pm Saturday will see another auction of donated items at low starting bids. If you have items you wish to donate for auction, please get in touch with show organizers Friday night or early Saturday. Auctions items need not be classic computing related. No registration is required for the auction. - The Free Pile tradition continues! One corner of the "Grove" side room (http://vcfmw.org/HIEGV_FloorplanDetail.jpg) will be dedicated to the infamous Free Pile - leave your junk there but be prepared to take it home if it's still there Sunday afternoon! No printers, please! - Hotel rooms are still available at the $84/night convention rate; please follow the link at http://vcfmw.org or use the code "VCF" when calling the hotel; if you are unable to obtain the con rate, please let me know as I may have to ask the hotel to expand the reservation block. - We remind you that VCF Midwest is a community-funded show; we receive no funding from any other organization. If you appreciate what we do and you are able, please visit the donation links on our site at http://vcfmw.org. Please feel free to help us get the word out and re-post this message in your favorite vintage-related forum. Thank you for your interest and support and we'll see you in September! -j From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 20:30:07 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 21:30:07 -0400 Subject: Video From VCF West In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > Very cool stuff! Thanks so much to everyone providing videos. > I'm curious.. I had heard Michael Holley would be there with a bunch of SWTPC stuff.. did that happen? > Brad > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/SWTPc_Exhibit.jpg He is the guy on the right, at his exhibit. B From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 20:37:17 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 20:37:17 -0500 Subject: OT: Creative reuse In-Reply-To: <5163DEC6-1402-43C0-A5B2-AA4E3E99E7CF@verizon.net> References: <5163DEC6-1402-43C0-A5B2-AA4E3E99E7CF@verizon.net> Message-ID: Is this what's meant by a battery post? On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > I guess your customer switched to WiFi? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 7:10 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > > > I know the content of this picture is probably way too new for this list, > > but I figured people on here might appreciate it. I work at Pepboys and I > > snapped this picture a few days ago. I love this person's reuse of > > something they apparently don't have a use for anymore. > > > > I'm sorry if this email offends anyone > > > > http://i63.tinypic.com/28ahk06.jpg > > > > Joe > From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 21:31:52 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 20:31:52 -0600 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: <76b4639a-5970-286f-79d3-4f158660554c@bitsavers.org> References: <76b4639a-5970-286f-79d3-4f158660554c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > is there any correlation between creation dates of the files and the failure rate? > i'm wondering if the heads started to clog farther into the imaging session. I'm seeing more errors on low numbered tracks, so I really think I just need a better data separator algorithm. References on PLL design state that the error signal has to be low pass filtered for loop stability, and I've seen plenty of designs for analog PLLs, but I can't find any example ADPLL design that has low pass filtering. The references describe using an IIR filter. I've never had good luck with IIR filters, so I tried a 2nd order (3 tap) FIR filter, and a range of cutoff frequencies, and didn't see any improvement. Maybe 2nd order doesn't have sharp enough rolloff to help. I really need to learn more about control theory and the Z-transform. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Aug 8 22:04:21 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 23:04:21 -0400 Subject: Video From VCF West Message-ID: Nice display - we have some processor frame and disc drive that we got this spring at SMECC so I have been saving off the messages on SWTPC during the last week or so. About the only experience with this is I saw one John Harrington had that ran the GE service shop.... so time to learn now! Ed# Very cool stuff! Thanks so much to everyone providing videos. > I'm curious.. I had heard Michael Holley would be there with a bunch of SWTPC stuff.. did that happen? > Brad > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/SWTPc_Exhibit.jpg He is the guy on the right, at his exhibit. B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 9 00:06:11 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 22:06:11 -0700 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: References: <76b4639a-5970-286f-79d3-4f158660554c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1cb3b171-13be-3a6c-a695-ed8b8ea84940@sydex.com> On 08/08/2016 07:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm seeing more errors on low numbered tracks, so I really think I > just need a better data separator algorithm. That's surprising--low-numbered tracks should be the easiest to read. At the expense of sounding like a complete idiot, have you checked the alignment of the drive? It's not uncommon to get a batch of disks written with alignment slightly off (blame whomever you want). I keep an "unaligned" drive around to tweak when I run into those cases. --Chuck From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Aug 9 01:19:49 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2016 23:19:49 -0700 Subject: Video From VCF West Message-ID: Thanks muchly. ?Interesting.. his 6800 has the all black front panel but has the db25 holes in the back.. mine doesn't have the db25s. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: william degnan Date: 2016-08-08 6:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Video From VCF West > > > > Very cool stuff!? Thanks so much to everyone providing videos. > I'm curious.. I had heard Michael Holley would be there with a bunch of SWTPC stuff.. did that happen? > Brad > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/SWTPc_Exhibit.jpg He is the guy on the right, at his exhibit. B From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 01:48:23 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 00:48:23 -0600 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: <1cb3b171-13be-3a6c-a695-ed8b8ea84940@sydex.com> References: <76b4639a-5970-286f-79d3-4f158660554c@bitsavers.org> <1cb3b171-13be-3a6c-a695-ed8b8ea84940@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 11:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/08/2016 07:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> I'm seeing more errors on low numbered tracks, so I really think I >> just need a better data separator algorithm. > That's surprising--low-numbered tracks should be the easiest to read. I agree. That's why I suspect data separator algorithm problems over hardware problems or bad images. > At the expense of sounding like a complete idiot, have you checked the > alignment of the drive? I can't. I only have the images. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 9 02:33:24 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 00:33:24 -0700 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: References: <76b4639a-5970-286f-79d3-4f158660554c@bitsavers.org> <1cb3b171-13be-3a6c-a695-ed8b8ea84940@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 08/08/2016 11:48 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 11:06 PM, Chuck Guzis > wrote: >> At the expense of sounding like a complete idiot, have you checked >> the alignment of the drive? > > I can't. I only have the images. That's unfortunate. I run into mis-aligned disks not infrequently. I don't know how to correct that one with software. When making cw-type images, you can usually just inspect the histogram for a track and tell by the groupings whether you're on track or not. --Chuck From Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de Tue Aug 9 02:47:53 2016 From: Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de (Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 09:47:53 +0200 Subject: HP 110 AC Adapter Message-ID: <005e01d1f212$5667ee80$0337cb80$@MH-AeroTools.de> Josh, for testing you can also remove the battery and connect a 6V DC power supply to the computer. Under the battery cover there is also a picofuse which may be blown if someone was tinkering with the machine before. The HP 110 is interesting if you want to play with HP-IL - it has some BIOS routines to control the HP-IL. The other remarkable thing is that he has MS-DOS in ROM and all data on RAM disks m(which is rather limited, though). Ideally you would also want a 9114 3-1/2" floppy disk drive for it. If the computer works, you can rebuild the battery pack. The lead cells are still available e.g. under the name Hawker Enersys Cyclone 2V/2.5Ah. You can use 3 single cells (about 7$ each) and make them into a pack. Good luck Martin From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 20:33:12 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 20:33:12 -0500 Subject: CCS S-100 system avail in Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: mailed. On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 10:01 AM, william degnan wrote: > I was contacted about a CCS S-100 system available for pickup in > the Minneapolis area. Contact me privately. Includes CP/M software, etc. > A full station wagon full of stuff/docs. I don't know the guy, just trying > to help out. > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm > > Bill > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 08:47:37 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 09:47:37 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <623416ed-f086-1291-0c37-9058a7a927de@sydex.com> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009501d1ef3b$6c7e9900$457bcb00$@bettercomputing.net> <00b501d1ef5e$87be6060$973b2120$@bettercomputing.net> <623416ed-f086-1291-0c37-9058a7a927de@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: >> I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 >> terminals and would really like this system to work with one of >> those. However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I >> think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers. > > Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so > much for video terminals. And I am not aware of any USB serial adapters that do 110 bps. If anyone knows of any, post brand and model numbers. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 09:55:54 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 10:55:54 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <20160805185813.GN2132@n0jcf.net> References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009601d1ef3b$c97c23c0$5c746b40$@bettercomputing.net> <20160805185813.GN2132@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +0000), tony duell wrote: >> >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? > > No. ;-) No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago. I get why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my experiences as "typical". I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic light". I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff. *Mostly*, if you plug everything in and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop adding null-modem adapters. Past that, you have to know if either end requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking. If you defeat it, you might run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to establish basic comms and pass a few characters. To that end, you do have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits. I've run into multiple situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer. With enough experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on an often recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out what the speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a serial analyzer or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" until cleartext comes through. I also try the speeds in "most popular order", 9600, 1200, 300, 2400, 4800, 19200, 600... in the hopes of saving time. Every once in a while, you run into some oddball stuff, like 9600/150, etc., split speeds from the days of timesharing setups where the CPU wanted to get data to the users as fast as possible but wanted to minimize input interrupts and more closely match the input flow to (slow) human typing speeds. This wasn't common with microcomputers, but I've seen it with PDP-11 and PDP-8 setups and isn't something to look for first, but it does exist and highlights how strange things can get if all you've ever done is plug a high speed modem into a PC for dial-up internet. One important tip about USB serial dongles (and some laptops DE9 serial ports) - I've had problems with some of them and 1970s gear because the EIA/RS-232C (1969) level specification is +5V to +15V for space (0) and -15V to -5V for mark (1) (with +/-3V min sensitivity) and a lot of old gear is expecting +/-12V and not happy with lower-voltage lines and thin wires that don't help signal losses. One case in particular was a 1977-era Bridgeport Series II CNC mill with a LSI-11/03 CPU and a lot of custom Bridgeport boards. Everyone else who tried to talk to the Bridgeport before me had zero success. I checked all the things on the list and finally pulled out the laptop and set up a Dell desktop which worked the first time. When connecting to pre-1982 gear, I'd definitely try it from a desktop if a laptop is just not working. Checking the lines with an oscilloscope could also help verify this what's giving the grief (I did not have one handy when we were trying to get that CNC mill working). In terms of serial analyzers, there are several types out there, and the ones that I've had the most time on are the HP 4951/4952 series. There are different models with different features, but if you are going to shop for one, ensure it comes with the "keyboard lid" because that's where the line drivers and serial connectors are. The large connector on the back goes to a "pod" that happens to snap on the front of the unit when the keyboard is flipped up. It's much easier to find the base units than loose pods, IME. Check which pod. I've seen many with DB25s, which is probably what you want, but I've also seen DC-37 connectors, and non-EIA (RS-232) level shifters. The good news is that among these different models, the pods should be interchangable, so if you end up picking up 2 units (not unusual) with different base capabilities (some have DC-150 cassette tape, some have 3.5" floppy, plus some minor differences) and only one has a DB25 EIA pod, you can at least migrate it between the units. I find the serial analyzers invaluable for snooping on the details of what's happening on the wire, but any analyzers I have seen have a handy "autoconfig" button to sniff traffic and configure the line for monitoring, so it's often a quick click to get all the parameters if you don't already know them. Where they really shine is looking for troubles at the application layer, debugging Kermit or XMODEM traffic that isn't working for any obvious reason. The advanced stuff you can do is to write programs for some analyzers to simulate a host or a client for software debugging or to reproduce a problem for deeper analysis - this is far beyond the usual "why can't I get this terminal working with this vintage machine" but when you need it, you need it. In summary, I start by scoping the line with an LED traffic light (swapping lines or making custom cables where necessary), then move on the speed and parity settings (and changing the easier-to-change end), then look deeper when the easy stuff doesn't work. Easy problems take minutes or less. Hard problems can take a long time to resolve. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 9 10:02:49 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 15:02:49 +0000 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: References: <76b4639a-5970-286f-79d3-4f158660554c@bitsavers.org> <1cb3b171-13be-3a6c-a695-ed8b8ea84940@sydex.com> , Message-ID: I was having problems recovering inner tracks on some 5.25 disk. I added some extra screws that allowed me to move the head both radially and up and down. I was able to recover more but still didn't get it all. The up and down allowed a little rotation as well as tracking. On the inner tracks a small up or down looks like the head is rotated slightly. I just looked at the analog amplitude. I was just using a controller card instead of sampling. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:33:24 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) On 08/08/2016 11:48 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 11:06 PM, Chuck Guzis > wrote: >> At the expense of sounding like a complete idiot, have you checked >> the alignment of the drive? > > I can't. I only have the images. That's unfortunate. I run into mis-aligned disks not infrequently. I don't know how to correct that one with software. When making cw-type images, you can usually just inspect the histogram for a track and tell by the groupings whether you're on track or not. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Aug 9 11:49:46 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 09:49:46 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009501d1ef3b$6c7e9900$457bcb00$@bettercomputing.net> <00b501d1ef5e$87be6060$973b2120$@bettercomputing.net> <623416ed-f086-1291-0c37-9058a7a927de@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8008399E-D683-4590-B9C1-4630F2A72A85@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Aug-09, at 6:47 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: >>> I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 >>> terminals and would really like this system to work with one of >>> those. However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I >>> think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers. >> >> Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so >> much for video terminals. > > And I am not aware of any USB serial adapters that do 110 bps. If > anyone knows of any, post brand and model numbers. It didn't do 110, but I chanced across one USB/serial adapter that goes down to 75 bps. which fortuitously was just what I needed at the time for the model 28 teletype (with the appropriate gears) I was attempting to drive. The 75 wasn't readily accessible, I had to go to a low level in the unix config code and try sequential factors in the configuration for the rate, 75 being another factor of 2 down in the standard rate series 19,200 . . 9600 . . 1200 . . 300 . . 150 . . From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Aug 9 13:23:05 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:23:05 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: I think for me what gets confusing is where the various pins are. ?I have to read and re-resd pinouts to figure out where stuff should be. ?I sometimes have a brain fart and get it backwards. ?Yesterday part of my problem with my Tektronix box was having the numbering of pins on the terminal's DB25 backwards. ?Once I had that figured out it was just a matter of looping certain pins and we were good. ?It just adds an extra layer of fiddling. I have a question though.. there have been a few times where I thought the 6800 crashed but may not have. ?In several cases.. I sent a large loader file across and noticed errors coming through.. so I'd stop the machine. ?This was after teraterm said it had sent everything through. ?Is it possible the serial port on my PC is still trying to send out garbage for a while, messing up my connection to the 6800 until it finishes? ?I kept moving cards around but eventually it seemed to start working after so many powerups and time had passed.. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Brent Hilpert Date: 2016-08-09 9:49 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 On 2016-Aug-09, at 6:47 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: >>> I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 >>> terminals and would really like this system to work with one of >>> those.? However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I >>> think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers. >> >> Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so >> much for video terminals. > > And I am not aware of any USB serial adapters that do 110 bps.? If > anyone knows of any, post brand and model numbers. It didn't do 110, but I chanced across one USB/serial adapter that goes down to 75 bps. which fortuitously was just what I needed at the time for the model 28 teletype (with the appropriate gears) I was attempting to drive. The 75 wasn't readily accessible, I had to go to a low level in the unix config code and try sequential factors in the configuration for the rate, 75 being another factor of 2 down in the standard rate series 19,200 . . 9600 . . 1200 . . 300 . . 150 . . From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 9 14:09:06 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 12:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Aug 2016, Brad H wrote: > I have a question though.. there have been a few times where I thought > the 6800 crashed but may not have. ?In several cases.. I sent a large > loader file across and noticed errors coming through.. so I'd stop the > machine. ?This was after teraterm said it had sent everything through. >?Is it possible the serial port on my PC is still trying to send out > garbage for a while, messing up my connection to the 6800 until it > finishes? ?I kept moving cards around but eventually it seemed to start > working after so many powerups and time had passed.. Do have any ACTUAL handshaking in the connection, or is it all bypassed to "go ahead, everything is ready, just send!" If there is no FUNCTIONING handshake, then it could easily be as simple as the sender sending next byte before the receiver is ready for it. Try adding another stop bit to the terminal software. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Brent Hilpert Date: 2016-08-09 9:49 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 On 2016-Aug-09, at 6:47 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 08/05/2016 02:15 PM, Brad H wrote: >>> I have one more question for you guys -- I have a few CT-1024 >>> terminals and would really like this system to work with one of >>> those.? However, all of the CTs are quite delicate and are set I >>> think for 7, E, 2 @ 110 baud via soldered jumpers. >> >> Well, 110 bps is a bit on the slow side--great for teletypes, not so >> much for video terminals. > > And I am not aware of any USB serial adapters that do 110 bps.? If > anyone knows of any, post brand and model numbers. It didn't do 110, but I chanced across one USB/serial adapter that goes down to 75 bps. which fortuitously was just what I needed at the time for the model 28 teletype (with the appropriate gears) I was attempting to drive. The 75 wasn't readily accessible, I had to go to a low level in the unix config code and try sequential factors in the configuration for the rate, 75 being another factor of 2 down in the standard rate series 19,200 . . 9600 . . 1200 . . 300 . . 150 . . -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 234-3397 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Aug 9 14:53:13 2016 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2016 15:53:13 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009501d1ef3b$6c7e9900$457bcb00$@bettercomputing.net> <00b501d1ef5e$87be6060$973b2120$@bettercomputing.net> <623416ed-f086-1291-0c37-9058a7a927de@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0d6b01d1f277$aa92c330$ffb84990$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > And I am not aware of any USB serial adapters that do 110 bps. > If anyone knows of any, post brand and model numbers. Well, I know of a few "vintage" ones, and seeing that this is "Classic computer talk"... I use Belkin F5U103 USB serial ports. I got a stack of them at a hamfest a few years back. They work fine under at 110 bps under Windblows XP. I've never tried them under newer versions or under linux. I also use an old Annex terminal server that I seem to remember will do 110 but I've had it all set for 9600 for a long time. Bill S. From j_hoppe at t-online.de Tue Aug 9 14:56:12 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 21:56:12 +0200 Subject: VCFMW 11 Updates and Special Guest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fb89cc4-7d00-ec79-c06d-a1693ad3b2eb@t-online.de> Jason, Update to the exhibition "Jack Rubin/Joerg Hoppe/Mark Matlock - Digital PDP-8 minicomputers and a preview of the PiDP-11 " I'm also showing an original PDP-15 panel with SimH simulation behind. See http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/blinkenbone-physical-panels/256-pdp-15-console-panel-on-blinkenbone best regards, Joerg Am 08.08.2016 um 23:49 schrieb Jason T: > Hello retro fans - we are approaching the one month point before the > Eleventh Vintage Computer Festival Midwest and plans are quickly > coming together. Here are a few announcements and updates to bring > you up to speed: > > - We're happy to announce our very special guest speaker, former > Commodore engineer, Bil Herd! Bil will deliver an entertaining > 90-minute talk and Q&A on his time at Commodore and his many > post-Commodore adventures in engineering that continue today. > > - We are going to be packed FULL! And that means full of great > exhibits, including the ones listed here: http://vcfmw.org/ex.html. > The main hall's tables are all accounted for but there will be some > unassigned space in one of the side rooms for late-comers and > impromptu displays. > > - VCFMW Auction - an experiment last year, now a feature! Quality > entertainment and a fundraiser for the show, 4pm Saturday will see > another auction of donated items at low starting bids. If you have > items you wish to donate for auction, please get in touch with show > organizers Friday night or early Saturday. Auctions items need not be > classic computing related. No registration is required for the > auction. > > - The Free Pile tradition continues! One corner of the "Grove" side > room (http://vcfmw.org/HIEGV_FloorplanDetail.jpg) will be dedicated to > the infamous Free Pile - leave your junk there but be prepared to take > it home if it's still there Sunday afternoon! No printers, please! > > - Hotel rooms are still available at the $84/night convention rate; > please follow the link at http://vcfmw.org or use the code "VCF" when > calling the hotel; if you are unable to obtain the con rate, please > let me know as I may have to ask the hotel to expand the reservation > block. > > - We remind you that VCF Midwest is a community-funded show; we > receive no funding from any other organization. If you appreciate > what we do and you are able, please visit the donation links on our > site at http://vcfmw.org. > > Please feel free to help us get the word out and re-post this message > in your favorite vintage-related forum. Thank you for your interest > and support and we'll see you in September! > > -j From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Tue Aug 9 14:56:55 2016 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 14:56:55 -0500 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment Message-ID: >I really like my old test gear and yes, it just seems right to be restoring >vintage computers with vintage instruments. HP scopes, logic analyzers, >DVMs; function generator; Tek scope, frequency counter; as well as just >'sundry'. But I did break down and buy a DDS frequency generator to work >on my VHF/UHF ham gear. > >On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:07 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > >>* In fact, the value of old test gear varies tremendously.. *>>>>* Vacuum tube testers of certain makes & models are near the top of the food *>>* chain, with clean, working examples pulling $1500+ (USD) on a very regular *>>* basis. *>>>>* There's also a strong following for much 'classic' audio analysis gear (HD *>>* meters, ID meters, spectrum analyzers, etc.) some very fine multi-meters *>>* and anything really hi-end like General Radio, Breull & Kejjr, HP, and so *>>* forth. *>>>>* Some very early examples from the 1910s to 30's also pull good value simply *>>* for visual appeal. Much of this gear is resplendent with embossed, enameled *>>* panels, sculpted Bakelite knobs, large meter movements and an overall Art *>>* Deco styling. *>>>>* Seen a nice Supreme Diagnometer recently? Or any of the 40s-70s era English *>>* made tube testers, like the AVO? Hickok also made a series of bench VTVMs *>>* with massive chromed meters, designed to be large enough that they can be *>>* read from many feet away.. those are beautiful for display, and guess what *>>* - they work great, too! *>>>>* On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Dale H. Cook > wrote: *>>>>* > At 03:52 PM 7/28/2016, Electronics Plus wrote: *>>* > *>>* > >... does as-is old test and repair equip that won't be particularly *>>* cheap *>>* > have interest to you guys? *>>* > *>>* > It depends entirely on the make and model of equipment. I always have a *>>* > laundry list of stuff I am looking for - one of the reasons why I bring *>>* my *>>* > tablet to meets. *>>* > *>>* > Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA *>>* > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html *>>* > *>>* > *>>> > > >-- >Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate >The Information School >Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical >Narrative Through a Design Lens > >Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal >Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > >University of Washington > >There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." All this talk of older test equipment reminds me of the HP 4261A LCR bridge I repaired a while back, last winter I think. My dad found the 4261A in the garbage years ago, and it seemed to work fine, until one day he powered it up and the display showed garbage. He decided to open it up, and noticed some uncovered windowed EPROMs. Knowing that EPROMs sometimes flip bits in their old age, we decided that was the first place we would look. We were also able to locate the full HP service manual in PDF form for the instrument which helped tremendously. In typical HP fashion, it had full theory of operation, schematics, state diagrams, etc. Now, I have an EPROM burner that does your typical JEDEC pinout parts, 27 series and such. The issue is that these were Intel i1702A's from the early 70's I think. Not only are 1702's a totally different pinout, but they run on 14V (a +5V, and a -9V rail, with no connected ground, this is how intel got TTL levels on a MOS chip at the time). The 4261A has a total of 4 1702's, two of which form a finite state machine which controls the instrument, while the other two perform display decoding. I had to pull out my dad's DeVry Console 80, which has adjustable positive and negative supplies, and I manually clocked out the data and compared the contents to a dump I found online. I started with the state machine EPROMs, and compared the data. I did find a few discrepancies, but there was too much difference to have been bit rot. Given the sudden nature of the issue, I would have expected one, at most a couple bit flips, or something much more drastic (like total chip failure). Upon reading through the state diagrams in the HP manual, I noticed that there was a change noted in the state diagram between certain minor revisions of the 4261A. I looked at what the changes were, and deduced that my ROMs were in fact correct for the serial number prefix. At a dead end with the EPROMs, I decided to see if the state machine was even running at all. I used a DVM in DC mode, and measured perfect TTL ones and zeroes on all the state number outputs, which means those outputs weren't changing: the state machine was stuck. I wrote down the state it was stuck in and referred to the state diagram. I noticed something interesting. The state machine in the 4261A is able to evaluate simple conditions and control flow based on those. The state path to get to the state that the FSM was stuck on meant the FSM was always taking one of the conditional paths (always true, or always false, I don't remember which). At that point, I started looking into the condition circuitry, tracing out the path, checking IC's as I worked my way back, until I made it back to 1/2 of a 7474 which had a set input that was stuck active (low). This pin went to a pullup resistor, and nothing else in our unit (certain options used this pin, but not ours). We desoldered the IC, and sure enough, that pin was shorted to ground internal to the chip. We replaced it with a 74LS74, and the 4261A has been working great ever since, even with the original 40 year old 1702's. Also, on the topic of interesting HP products, and perhaps my personal favorite so far, is the HP dynamic signal analyzer 35670A. This instrument can perform all sorts of cool measurements. It can produce a test signal, and measure two different points in the circuit being measured. The measurement input channels give you a complex number phasor of the measured signal, which means you can do all sorts of cool measurements of networks, especially since you can do complex number math with the equation support of the instrument. The signal generator will perform sweeps too, of course. This was very useful determining whether the speaker crossovers my dad built were working as intended (actually they weren't, and this instrument helped us uncover a problem). We also used this to do inductor and capacitor characterization. There are all sorts of applications this instrument is good for. Joe Zatarski From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 16:12:47 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 16:12:47 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 11 Updates and Special Guest In-Reply-To: <9fb89cc4-7d00-ec79-c06d-a1693ad3b2eb@t-online.de> References: <9fb89cc4-7d00-ec79-c06d-a1693ad3b2eb@t-online.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 2:56 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > Jason, > > Update to the exhibition "Jack Rubin/Joerg Hoppe/Mark Matlock - Digital > PDP-8 minicomputers and a preview of the PiDP-11 " > I'm also showing an original PDP-15 panel with SimH simulation behind. > See > http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/blinkenbone-physical-panels/256-pdp-15-console-panel-on-blinkenbone Very cool project! We're going to be honored to have it at our show. I've updated the site with the new info and link. -j From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 18:07:04 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 17:07:04 -0600 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: <047e01d1e909$955072f0$bff158d0$@com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160728182216.03e1c190@juno.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 11:56 PM, tony duell wrote: > Since a Bell modem would cause a lot of problems on an old > UK phone line, Why is that? Are the electrical characteristics of the phone line actually that different from US lines? I worked for a modem company for a few years, though I mostly was involved with IP routers. I know homologating our modems for use in other countries was always a giant pain, but the problems were almost entirely regulatory hurdles, and not so much that the modem wouldn't actually work. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Aug 9 18:37:48 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 16:37:48 -0700 Subject: Photo album and video from VCF West Message-ID: https://goo.gl/photos/KdnDMBHeryMZqctV9 Youtube Channel playlist of videos. Some walking around Saturday morning before the show, Charles Anthony's exhibit. Also a fellow who dropped by after my buying a PDP 11/34 and was one of the engineers. I recorded an impromptu interview with him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmVGeVhr7A&list=PL5NK70kdq3-JGwb_8GXFN5SqDtbTKtLi7 Sherman Foy and I had a great time attending and participating in the event this year. Thanks to the organizers, staff and volunteers that were there to put it on. Thanks Jim From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Aug 9 20:30:24 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 02:30:24 +0100 Subject: Photo album and video from VCF West In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/08/2016 00:37, jim stephens wrote: > > https://goo.gl/photos/KdnDMBHeryMZqctV9 > > Youtube Channel playlist of videos. > > Some walking around Saturday morning before the show, Charles > Anthony's exhibit. > > Also a fellow who dropped by after my buying a PDP 11/34 and was one > of the engineers. > > I recorded an impromptu interview with him. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmVGeVhr7A&list=PL5NK70kdq3-JGwb_8GXFN5SqDtbTKtLi7 > > > Sherman Foy and I had a great time attending and participating in the > event this year. > > Thanks to the organizers, staff and volunteers that were there to put > it on. > > Thanks > Jim Hi Guys Now that is a very interesting set of Photos. Loads of what appear to be real front panels complete with bezels. As you know I produce reproduction panels and seeing all of those was most interesting. I have the process to make the actual panels just about right. So to bezels. I have made one prototype resin cast PDP-8 bezel. There are a few things to fix but essentially its OK. The next example should good enough to paint. Attach it to the panel and we have something like a full size front. Next up is a Key and Lamp board. I have a sample for an 8/i lamp board. Its new and not wanting to reinvent the wheel I'll use it with the 8/i now in production Lever and butterfly toggle switches are the main difficulty at this point. But sooner or later somebody will figure out how to make toggle switches at reasonable cost. Having just about done all of the popular PDP-8's Its PDP-11's next.. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood Finally From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Aug 9 21:37:42 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 19:37:42 -0700 Subject: Photo album and video from VCF West In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <939c291c-c3da-fd5d-4841-8643795f162a@jwsss.com> We had a discussion about your great work. One comment mentioned more than once was that they can scratch because you did an exact job of how the originals were made. And there may not be a coating today that doesn't crinkle or shrink on other plastics. You would have to match pretty closely the clear overcoat, and basic clear panel to stop that, so they didn't react or shrink at different rates with age, and perhaps do some sort of processing with the stencil material to stop it from flaking off as well. But they are still great from what everyone said. I emailed you offline about one for Sherman as well thanks Jim On 8/9/2016 6:30 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 10/08/2016 00:37, jim stephens wrote: >> >> https://goo.gl/photos/KdnDMBHeryMZqctV9 >> >> Youtube Channel playlist of videos. >> >> Some walking around Saturday morning before the show, Charles >> Anthony's exhibit. >> >> Also a fellow who dropped by after my buying a PDP 11/34 and was one >> of the engineers. >> >> I recorded an impromptu interview with him. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmVGeVhr7A&list=PL5NK70kdq3-JGwb_8GXFN5SqDtbTKtLi7 >> >> >> Sherman Foy and I had a great time attending and participating in the >> event this year. >> >> Thanks to the organizers, staff and volunteers that were there to put >> it on. >> >> Thanks >> Jim > Hi Guys > Now that is a very interesting set of Photos. Loads of > what appear to be real front panels complete with bezels. > As you know I produce reproduction panels and seeing all of those was > most interesting. > I have the process to make the actual panels just about right. > > So to bezels. I have made one prototype resin cast PDP-8 bezel. There > are a few things to fix but essentially its OK. > The next example should good enough to paint. Attach it to the panel > and we have something like a full size front. > > Next up is a Key and Lamp board. I have a sample for an 8/i lamp board. > Its new and not wanting to reinvent the wheel I'll use it with the > 8/i now in production > Lever and butterfly toggle switches are the main difficulty at this > point. But sooner or later somebody will figure out how to > make toggle switches at reasonable cost. > > Having just about done all of the popular PDP-8's Its PDP-11's next.. > > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > > > > > > Finally > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 9 23:31:59 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 04:31:59 +0000 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: <047e01d1e909$955072f0$bff158d0$@com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160728182216.03e1c190@juno.com> , Message-ID: > > Since a Bell modem would cause a lot of problems on an old > > UK phone line, > > Why is that? Are the electrical characteristics of the phone line > actually that different from US lines? Electrically the lines are almost identical (there are differences in things like ringing voltage and frequency, but you can plug a US telephone into a UK line with no technical problems). The problem is that one of the 300 baud Bell tones is effectively the same as (I think) the long-distance clearing signal. Something like that anyway. If you connect your 300 baud US modem over here it will effectively cause the exchange to hang up. Modems sold in the UK have/had to be incapable of sending the Bell tones, for that reason. One famous one based on the AM7910 chip had a pin in the mode selector switch that prevented it being set to the positions for the Bell tones. This pin could be removed without even opening the case. I did that to mine, as I use it on a line simulator (not the public network) for testing US modems, etc. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 08:24:57 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 09:24:57 -0400 Subject: CCS S-100 system avail in Minneapolis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All - I have forwarded to the donor of the California Computer System in MN contact info of the first three who responded. Good luck! Bill On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 9:33 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > mailed. > > On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 10:01 AM, william degnan > wrote: > > > I was contacted about a CCS S-100 system available for pickup in > > the Minneapolis area. Contact me privately. Includes CP/M software, > etc. > > A full station wagon full of stuff/docs. I don't know the guy, just > trying > > to help out. > > > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm > > > > Bill > > > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Aug 10 02:57:29 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 08:57:29 +0100 Subject: Photo album and video from VCF West In-Reply-To: <939c291c-c3da-fd5d-4841-8643795f162a@jwsss.com> References: <939c291c-c3da-fd5d-4841-8643795f162a@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 10/08/2016 03:37, jim stephens wrote: > We had a discussion about your great work. One comment mentioned more > than once was that they can scratch because you did an exact job of > how the originals were made. And there may not be a coating today > that doesn't crinkle or shrink on other plastics. You would have to > match pretty closely the clear overcoat, and basic clear panel to stop > that, so they didn't react or shrink at different rates with age, and > perhaps do some sort of processing with the stencil material to stop > it from flaking off as well. But they are still great from what > everyone said. > > I emailed you offline about one for Sherman as well > thanks > Jim > > On 8/9/2016 6:30 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> >> On 10/08/2016 00:37, jim stephens wrote: >>> >>> https://goo.gl/photos/KdnDMBHeryMZqctV9 >>> >>> Youtube Channel playlist of videos. >>> >>> Some walking around Saturday morning before the show, Charles >>> Anthony's exhibit. >>> >>> Also a fellow who dropped by after my buying a PDP 11/34 and was one >>> of the engineers. >>> >>> I recorded an impromptu interview with him. >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmVGeVhr7A&list=PL5NK70kdq3-JGwb_8GXFN5SqDtbTKtLi7 >>> >>> >>> Sherman Foy and I had a great time attending and participating in >>> the event this year. >>> >>> Thanks to the organizers, staff and volunteers that were there to >>> put it on. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Jim >> Hi Guys >> Now that is a very interesting set of Photos. Loads >> of what appear to be real front panels complete with bezels. >> As you know I produce reproduction panels and seeing all of those was >> most interesting. >> I have the process to make the actual panels just about right. >> >> So to bezels. I have made one prototype resin cast PDP-8 bezel. >> There are a few things to fix but essentially its OK. >> The next example should good enough to paint. Attach it to the panel >> and we have something like a full size front. >> >> Next up is a Key and Lamp board. I have a sample for an 8/i lamp board. >> Its new and not wanting to reinvent the wheel I'll use it with the >> 8/i now in production >> Lever and butterfly toggle switches are the main difficulty at this >> point. But sooner or later somebody will figure out how to >> make toggle switches at reasonable cost. >> >> Having just about done all of the popular PDP-8's Its PDP-11's next.. >> >> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >> >> >> >> >> > Hi Thanks for the comments. Yes in an effort to mimic the old production methods I did manage to reproduce some of the old problems as well. Good news! The worst problem was scratches to the black layer on the back. We managed to find a coating that was unobtrusive but resistant to abrasion and all currently shipping panels have this layer on the back. The front is a different matter. Although the front looks like its matte black it isn't (nor were the originals) Its an illusion due to (I think) the refractive properties of the plastic. I use a front satin finish perspex. The originals used a satin finish coating. Why do I not use a coating? Because you can get satin finish perspex, they don't make the coating any more. Having achieved the right look and feel putting a protective coating on the front is something I have to think about. Regards Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From aswood at t-online.de Wed Aug 10 08:22:24 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:22:24 +0200 Subject: Tape imaging Message-ID: I successfully took a (factory new) DEC TSZ07 SCSI tape drive into operation using a Sun SS20 and a Linux box. Now I do have a big pile of CDC, DEC, HP, Convex and IBM tapes and I'd like to create tape images to file to save the tapes content. What is the to be preferred procedure to image the tapes, which software to use and which kind of format to store the images? -- Andreas From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 09:04:23 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:04:23 +0200 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 August 2016 at 15:22, wrote: > I successfully took a (factory new) DEC TSZ07 SCSI tape drive into operation using a Sun SS20 and a Linux box. > > Now I do have a big pile of CDC, DEC, HP, Convex and IBM tapes and I'd like to create tape images to file to save the tapes content. > > What is the to be preferred procedure to image the tapes, which software to use and which kind of format to store the images? fwiw, I made my own format when I archived all my old tapes. A very simple one: - I read the tape record by record - The output disk file contains a 4-byte integer in big endian format, followed by one record. - The 4-byte integer contains the physical record size as read from the tape. - Then another 4-byte value plus a new record, and so on. - End-of-file markers are encoded by using 0 as the value for the 4-byte integer, with no record following (logically enough). From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 10 09:42:36 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 07:42:36 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> On 8/10/16 7:04 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 10 August 2016 at 15:22, wrote: >> I successfully took a (factory new) DEC TSZ07 SCSI tape drive into operation using a Sun SS20 and a Linux box. >> >> Now I do have a big pile of CDC, DEC, HP, Convex and IBM tapes and I'd like to create tape images to file to save the tapes content. >> >> What is the to be preferred procedure to image the tapes, which software to use and which kind of format to store the images? > > fwiw, I made my own format when I archived all my old tapes. A very simple one: > - I read the tape record by record > - The output disk file contains a 4-byte integer in big endian format, > followed by one record. > - The 4-byte integer contains the physical record size as read from the tape. > - Then another 4-byte value plus a new record, and so on. > - End-of-file markers are encoded by using 0 as the value for the > 4-byte integer, with no record following (logically enough). > congratulations, you reinvented .tap format.. badly. how did you handle unreadable blocks. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Aug 10 09:51:22 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201608101451.KAA01339@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> fwiw, I made my own format when I archived all my old tapes. [...] > congratulations, you reinvented .tap format.. badly. Now, now, no need to be harsh. I daresay this format was intended for purposes somewhat different from .tap's and thus its tradeoffs were made differently. I invented a similar slightly different format myself, once (it was to represent tapes in a software-simulated tape drive; it was much like the format whose description I cut, above, except that each record had its length after as well as before it, to make backward skips easy - something not important and not worth spending storage space on if you're just trying to archive existing tapes' data). > how did you handle unreadable blocks. Quite possibly not at all, since it appears to have been intended for archiving readable tapes. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 10:10:40 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:10:40 -0500 Subject: Photo album and video from VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <939c291c-c3da-fd5d-4841-8643795f162a@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Wow wish u had more videos could keep watching g all day as I terminate cat5 cables fascinating wish I was there On Aug 10, 2016 2:57 AM, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > > > On 10/08/2016 03:37, jim stephens wrote: > >> We had a discussion about your great work. One comment mentioned more >> than once was that they can scratch because you did an exact job of how the >> originals were made. And there may not be a coating today that doesn't >> crinkle or shrink on other plastics. You would have to match pretty >> closely the clear overcoat, and basic clear panel to stop that, so they >> didn't react or shrink at different rates with age, and perhaps do some >> sort of processing with the stencil material to stop it from flaking off as >> well. But they are still great from what everyone said. >> >> I emailed you offline about one for Sherman as well >> thanks >> Jim >> >> On 8/9/2016 6:30 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On 10/08/2016 00:37, jim stephens wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> https://goo.gl/photos/KdnDMBHeryMZqctV9 >>>> >>>> Youtube Channel playlist of videos. >>>> >>>> Some walking around Saturday morning before the show, Charles Anthony's >>>> exhibit. >>>> >>>> Also a fellow who dropped by after my buying a PDP 11/34 and was one of >>>> the engineers. >>>> >>>> I recorded an impromptu interview with him. >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmVGeVhr7A&list=PL5NK70kdq3 >>>> -JGwb_8GXFN5SqDtbTKtLi7 >>>> >>>> Sherman Foy and I had a great time attending and participating in the >>>> event this year. >>>> >>>> Thanks to the organizers, staff and volunteers that were there to put >>>> it on. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Jim >>>> >>> Hi Guys >>> Now that is a very interesting set of Photos. Loads of >>> what appear to be real front panels complete with bezels. >>> As you know I produce reproduction panels and seeing all of those was >>> most interesting. >>> I have the process to make the actual panels just about right. >>> >>> So to bezels. I have made one prototype resin cast PDP-8 bezel. There >>> are a few things to fix but essentially its OK. >>> The next example should good enough to paint. Attach it to the panel and >>> we have something like a full size front. >>> >>> Next up is a Key and Lamp board. I have a sample for an 8/i lamp board. >>> Its new and not wanting to reinvent the wheel I'll use it with the 8/i >>> now in production >>> Lever and butterfly toggle switches are the main difficulty at this >>> point. But sooner or later somebody will figure out how to >>> make toggle switches at reasonable cost. >>> >>> Having just about done all of the popular PDP-8's Its PDP-11's next.. >>> >>> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Hi > Thanks for the comments. Yes in an effort to mimic the old production > methods I did manage to reproduce some of the old problems as well. > Good news! The worst problem was scratches to the black layer on the back. > We managed to find a coating that was unobtrusive but resistant to > abrasion and all currently shipping panels have this layer on the back. > The front is a different matter. Although the front looks like its matte > black it isn't (nor were the originals) > Its an illusion due to (I think) the refractive properties of the plastic. > I use a front satin finish perspex. The originals used a satin finish > coating. Why do I not use a coating? > Because you can get satin finish perspex, they don't make the coating any > more. > > Having achieved the right look and feel putting a protective coating on > the front is something I have to think about. > > Regards Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 10 10:43:55 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 08:43:55 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> On 08/10/2016 07:42 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > congratulations, you reinvented .tap format.. badly. > > how did you handle unreadable blocks. Additionally, how was the metadata handled? (i.e. information about equipment used, paper labels, maybe a photo of the tape reel itself?). The physical aspects are also part of archival information. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 10 10:46:22 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 08:46:22 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <201608101451.KAA01339@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> <201608101451.KAA01339@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <509be548-db0b-fdcc-c3bb-e1393a27d372@bitsavers.org> On 8/10/16 7:51 AM, Mouse wrote: > Now, now, no need to be harsh. sorry, too early in the morning. > I invented a similar slightly different format myself, once (it was to > represent tapes in a software-simulated tape drive; it was much like > the format whose description I cut, above, except that each record had > its length after as well as before it that is the main difference between the original DECUS .tpc format and the emulator .tap format From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 10 10:49:37 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 08:49:37 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 8/10/16 8:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Additionally, how was the metadata handled? (i.e. information about > equipment used, paper labels, maybe a photo of the tape reel itself?). > > The physical aspects are also part of archival information. > Even though the file size of a picture of the label may be bigger than the data itself, it is incredibly important, especially wgt provenance of the media (original disk, etc.) I keep forgetting to shoot the backs of 3.5" floppies for the manufacturing part numbers :-( From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 10 11:04:44 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:04:44 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <79095672-563a-bf5f-1faa-9f9ceb9a5cac@sydex.com> On 08/10/2016 08:49 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Even though the file size of a picture of the label may be bigger > than the data itself, it is incredibly important, especially wgt > provenance of the media (original disk, etc.) In particular, the simple TAP format (and its ilk) say nothing about the original recorded density or even the length of the tape. You'd think that might be important to someone. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 11:16:18 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:16:18 -0600 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: <047e01d1e909$955072f0$bff158d0$@com> <7.0.1.0.2.20160728182216.03e1c190@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 10:31 PM, tony duell wrote: > The problem is that one of the 300 baud Bell tones is effectively the > same as (I think) the long-distance clearing signal. Something like that > anyway. If you connect your 300 baud US modem over here it will > effectively cause the exchange to hang up. Wow, I knew the tones were different, but I thought that was just the typical NIH syndrome, doing it different to be different. CCITT (later ITU-T) V.21 (300 bps full duplex), V.23 (1200 bps half-duplex) and V.22 (1200 bps full-duplex) modem protocols were never popular in the US; Bell 103, 202, and 212, respectively, were used instead. So what did people do if they needed to make a data call to the US? Was that just not done until the US started using CCITT modem protocols such as V.22bis (2400 bps)? From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Aug 10 13:34:05 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:34:05 +0000 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <79095672-563a-bf5f-1faa-9f9ceb9a5cac@sydex.com> References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> <79095672-563a-bf5f-1faa-9f9ceb9a5cac@sydex.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED5547E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 9:05 AM > On 08/10/2016 08:49 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Even though the file size of a picture of the label may be bigger >> than the data itself, it is incredibly important, especially wgt >> provenance of the media (original disk, etc.) > In particular, the simple TAP format (and its ilk) say nothing about > the original recorded density or even the length of the tape. > You'd think that might be important to someone. It's too bad that the Time Capsule File System invented more than twenty years ago at MIT never took off: http://www.boogles.com/local/papers/tcfs-thesis/thesis.html Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Aug 10 09:45:54 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 07:45:54 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/10/2016 7:04 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 10 August 2016 at 15:22, wrote: >> I successfully took a (factory new) DEC TSZ07 SCSI tape drive into operation using a Sun SS20 and a Linux box. >> >> Now I do have a big pile of CDC, DEC, HP, Convex and IBM tapes and I'd like to create tape images to file to save the tapes content. >> >> What is the to be preferred procedure to image the tapes, which software to use and which kind of format to store the images? > fwiw, I made my own format when I archived all my old tapes. A very simple one: > - I read the tape record by record > - The output disk file contains a 4-byte integer in big endian format, > followed by one record. > - The 4-byte integer contains the physical record size as read from the tape. > - Then another 4-byte value plus a new record, and so on. > - End-of-file markers are encoded by using 0 as the value for the > 4-byte integer, with no record following (logically enough). I'd find a way to get it to some format acceptable to simh as a lot of the tapes you have will probably work on emulators. There are already utilities for going to and from that, and perhaps even some that will compile and run on your hardware to go from SCSI devices or serial block devices to that format. Also WRT to the above format, I believe that most tape formats have a block size for the previous record so that the tape can be read in reverse. Not sure I saw that from the description. I have a simple program that creates a single file per tape block on reading. A zero length file is a tape mark. File number on the tape is the first part of the file name, and record number of the block is the second part, with the file name being 4 hex ascii, a "-" character and a 4 hex ascii character. I then read that to convert to the archival formats, or to examine the file prior to encoding. Al K's reader and format has meta data related to tape errors encountered so that tape images can be padded out with some filler for possible recovery or use of tapes that are unreadable. I have not written any of that code, since it usually isn't available from raw drivers on Linux. his reading method uses specialized hardware to digitize the files, and is somewhat different when the metadata is possible to create. thanks Jim From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 10 10:22:51 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 11:22:51 -0400 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77426BA3-EE1B-4E31-8D43-EAADC374D636@comcast.net> > On Aug 10, 2016, at 9:22 AM, aswood at t-online.de wrote: > > I successfully took a (factory new) DEC TSZ07 SCSI tape drive into operation using a Sun SS20 and a Linux box. > > Now I do have a big pile of CDC, DEC, HP, Convex and IBM tapes and I'd like to create tape images to file to save the tapes content. > > What is the to be preferred procedure to image the tapes, which software to use and which kind of format to store the images? Tor gave one answer, and it is certainly a useable one. But the more straightforward answer is to use an existing well-defined format. "TAP" format, as used in SIMH, will do nicely. There are slight variations in that format, but I'd suggest looking at the SIMH documentation for a description and using that. The summary description is in the SIMH User's Guide, appendix A.3. I believe there are off the shelf open source tools to read a SCSI tape on Unix and generate a .TAP format file from it, but I haven't used them so I don't have the names at my fingertips. You may end up needing to do some postprocessing for some machines, depending on what precise format those emulators want. For the case of CDC, TAP format is good because DtCyber uses that as well. paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 10 14:38:51 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:38:51 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED5547E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> <79095672-563a-bf5f-1faa-9f9ceb9a5cac@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED5547E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <1b0b4695-5176-2914-53e6-176338b565eb@sydex.com> On 08/10/2016 11:34 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Chuck Guzis > It's too bad that the Time Capsule File System invented more than > twenty years ago at MIT never took off: > > http://www.boogles.com/local/papers/tcfs-thesis/thesis.html Yup, I recall seeing that. In my case, I append (after the .tap EOI marker) my metadata records, including a transfer log generated in real time. Most SIMH software doesn't look past EOI if reading, so that's okay. --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 10 15:44:45 2016 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:44:45 -0500 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: References: <946363E2-3CBC-4D08-B765-CB8F072245F0@charter.net> Message-ID: <57b7576a-86af-4155-667c-c1034d7a1c58@charter.net> Well, it turns out what I have is a version of Karsten Schiebler's "cw" program (cwtool) that is NOT on the web site (http://unusedino.de/cw/), that I got directly from him. I used that code to image my Intel M2FM floppies. What I have is labeled as version 0.14, but it is actually dated from October 2 2009, so I would presume that the code I have is subsumed into the later versions, so I suggest just picking up his latest version from his web site. JRJ On 8/7/2016 10:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 8:53 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Folks, I do have a version of software that supports READING Intel m2fm on a cat weasel, and will post a link in the coming days - just got back from a road trip. > > That's great! I look forward to seeing it, even though I don't have a > Catweasel. :-) > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 15:56:04 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:56:04 -0700 Subject: HP 110 AC Adapter In-Reply-To: <005e01d1f212$5667ee80$0337cb80$@MH-AeroTools.de> References: <005e01d1f212$5667ee80$0337cb80$@MH-AeroTools.de> Message-ID: <57AB94E4.3090204@gmail.com> On 8/9/16 12:47 AM, Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de wrote: > Josh, > > for testing you can also remove the battery and connect a 6V DC power supply > to the computer. > Under the battery cover there is also a picofuse which may be blown if > someone was tinkering with the machine before. > > The HP 110 is interesting if you want to play with HP-IL - it has some BIOS > routines to control the HP-IL. The other remarkable thing is that he has > MS-DOS in ROM and all data on RAM disks m(which is rather limited, though). > Ideally you would also want a 9114 3-1/2" floppy disk drive for it. > > If the computer works, you can rebuild the battery pack. The lead cells are > still available e.g. under the name Hawker Enersys Cyclone 2V/2.5Ah. You can > use 3 single cells (about 7$ each) and make them into a pack. > > Good luck > Martin > > > Thanks (and thanks also to Rik for his input). The appropriate adapter is reasonably cheap on eBay ($20 with shipping) so I have one on its way. I've wanted an HP 110 for awhile (but never went out of my way to get one) so this should be fun to play with. And the 9114 drive that came with it can also be used with my HP-75, so that'll be cool as well. Thanks for the tips! - Josh From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Aug 10 16:03:43 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:03:43 -0400 Subject: HP 110 AC Adapter Message-ID: <22ed9c.5b044ccf.44dcf0ae@aol.com> and with the right hil interface card can be used with hp-150 also. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 8/10/2016 1:56:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, Thanks (and thanks also to Rik for his input). The appropriate adapter is reasonably cheap on eBay ($20 with shipping) so I have one on its way. I've wanted an HP 110 for awhile (but never went out of my way to get one) so this should be fun to play with. And the 9114 drive that came with it can also be used with my HP-75, so that'll be cool as well. Thanks for the tips! - Josh From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 10 17:07:05 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:07:05 -0500 Subject: Atlanta Open House tomorrow!! Message-ID: <003101d1f353$87fcecb0$97f6c610$@classiccmp.org> I'm posting this on behalf of Cindy at Elecplus I can't post to cctalk when I am away from home. I am in Atlanta, and the owner of the warehouse hs agreed to let people come in tomorrow. Please can you post the following for me? First come first served, no shipping on the really cheap items. Model M 101/103 terminal keyboards $10 each, no cracked cases, may not have complete caps. Hundreds of keyboards for other terminals starting at $30 each, tested and complete. A full pallet of AEK 1 and 2 keyboards More expensive items include a Burroughs keyboard, complete and in good condition, a 1978 terminal in working condition, and the following terminals/keyboards, tested, no screen burn, keyboards are complete. DEC VT100 (no keyboards), 220, 320, 420.Wyse 50 and 60 with keyboards. Qume 62 and 101+ with keyboards.Link MC2 and 3 with keyboards. ADDS 4000 with keyboards. HP 700/22, 700/43, 700/60, 700/90, 700/92, 700/94, 700/96 with keyboards. LOTS of working vintage test equip. Some pics are here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKbkEwdmlST2lKaUU Thank you! Cindy From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 18:11:10 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:11:10 -0600 Subject: dfitoimd: decoding Intel M2FM floppy flux images (was Re: Intel 432 floppy flux images for decoding) In-Reply-To: <57b7576a-86af-4155-667c-c1034d7a1c58@charter.net> References: <946363E2-3CBC-4D08-B765-CB8F072245F0@charter.net> <57b7576a-86af-4155-667c-c1034d7a1c58@charter.net> Message-ID: On Aug 10, 2016 2:39 PM, "Jay Jaeger" wrote: > Well, it turns out what I have is a version of Karsten Schiebler's "cw" > program (cwtool) I sent him email last week. He said the M2FM code isn't released. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 10 18:25:16 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:25:16 -0500 Subject: Atlanta Open House Tomorrow Message-ID: <000401d1f35e$73bee220$5b3ca660$@classiccmp.org> I'm reposting this because I set the time on the classiccmp server incorrectly (forgot to add 12). Just in case the important post below showed up earlier in folks inbox, I wanted to make sure it showed up. I'm posting this on behalf of Cindy at Elecplus I can't post to cctalk when I am away from home. I am in Atlanta, and the owner of the warehouse hs agreed to let people come in tomorrow. Please can you post the following for me? First come first served, no shipping on the really cheap items. Model M 101/103 terminal keyboards $10 each, no cracked cases, may not have complete caps. Hundreds of keyboards for other terminals starting at $30 each, tested and complete. A full pallet of AEK 1 and 2 keyboards More expensive items include a Burroughs keyboard, complete and in good condition, a 1978 terminal in working condition, and the following terminals/keyboards, tested, no screen burn, keyboards are complete. DEC VT100 (no keyboards), 220, 320, 420.Wyse 50 and 60 with keyboards. Qume 62 and 101+ with keyboards.Link MC2 and 3 with keyboards. ADDS 4000 with keyboards. HP 700/22, 700/43, 700/60, 700/90, 700/92, 700/94, 700/96 with keyboards. LOTS of working vintage test equip. Some pics are here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKbkEwdmlST2lKaUU Thank you! Cindy From cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 10 18:30:03 2016 From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 02:30:03 +0300 Subject: still looking for that stuff? Message-ID: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> Hey friend, Are you still lookinf for that stuff? I think I've just seen someething you may like, look Very truly yours, cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org From cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 10 18:30:07 2016 From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 02:30:07 +0300 Subject: good news from me Message-ID: <0000caf3c972$e731ac3d$076370cb$@twinax.org> Hi friend! I wanted to tell you something really nice, please read it here Hope this helps, cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org From marvin at west.net Wed Aug 10 18:42:59 2016 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:42:59 -0700 Subject: "RAM Drives" Elite 5H/10H Hard Drives for Apple ][ Message-ID: <7cd3d33b-a237-8616-cd93-066ebae4f9c9@west.net> I ran across a manual from "Ram Drives" company that apparently made hard drives. They were based in Goleta, CA (just north of Santa Barbara) which is what really caught my attention. My *guess* is they made/provided hard drives to Lobo Drives for their hard drive/floppy disk combination. I *think* I have either two or three of these units, but am unwilling to power them up without knowing a LOT more about how to do it safely. Because I believe they came from Lobo Drives, I suspect they may have a lot of interesting source code/programs that Lobo dealt with. Long way of asking, has anyone heard of "Ram Drives" company based in Goleta, CA and have any more information on them? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 18:47:15 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:47:15 -0500 Subject: still looking for that stuff? In-Reply-To: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> Message-ID: Spam? On Aug 10, 2016 6:30 PM, "cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org" wrote: > Hey friend, > > Are you still lookinf for that stuff? I think I've just seen > someething you may like, look > > > Very truly yours, cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 10 19:10:54 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:10:54 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> Related, since it hasn't been mentioned on this list. Tom Hunter just got a release from CDC for the use of CDC software for non-commercial use, so any CDC tapes out in the wild are going to be of great interest. On 8/10/16 6:22 AM, aswood at t-online.de wrote: > Now I do have a big pile of CDC, DEC, HP, Convex and IBM tapes and I'd like to create tape images to file to save the tapes content. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 10 19:10:54 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:10:54 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> Related, since it hasn't been mentioned on this list. Tom Hunter just got a release from CDC for the use of CDC software for non-commercial use, so any CDC tapes out in the wild are going to be of great interest. On 8/10/16 6:22 AM, aswood at t-online.de wrote: > Now I do have a big pile of CDC, DEC, HP, Convex and IBM tapes and I'd like to create tape images to file to save the tapes content. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 10 19:15:56 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:15:56 -0700 Subject: Atlanta Open House Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <000401d1f35e$73bee220$5b3ca660$@classiccmp.org> References: <000401d1f35e$73bee220$5b3ca660$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7c650aa8-b273-2bc7-39b8-069e6702abcf@bitsavers.org> If anyone goes there would you PLEASE look for a Qume 201 and Televideo 965 keyboard for me On 8/10/16 4:25 PM, Jay West wrote: > I'm reposting this because I set the time on the classiccmp server > incorrectly (forgot to add 12). Just in case the important post below showed > up earlier in folks inbox, I wanted to make sure it showed up. > > > > I'm posting this on behalf of Cindy at Elecplus > > > > I can't post to cctalk when I am away from home. I am in Atlanta, and the > owner of the warehouse hs agreed to let people come in tomorrow. Please can > you post the following for me? > > > > First come first served, no shipping on the really cheap items. Model M > 101/103 terminal keyboards $10 each, no cracked cases, may not have complete > caps. Hundreds of keyboards for other terminals starting at $30 each, tested > and complete. A full pallet of AEK 1 and 2 keyboards > > > > More expensive items include a Burroughs keyboard, complete and in good > condition, a 1978 terminal in working condition, and the following > terminals/keyboards, tested, no screen burn, keyboards are complete. DEC > VT100 (no keyboards), 220, 320, 420.Wyse 50 and 60 with keyboards. Qume 62 > and 101+ with keyboards.Link MC2 and 3 with keyboards. ADDS 4000 with > keyboards. HP 700/22, 700/43, 700/60, 700/90, 700/92, 700/94, 700/96 with > keyboards. > > > > LOTS of working vintage test equip. Some pics are here: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKbkEwdmlST2lKaUU > > > > Thank you! > > > > Cindy > > > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Aug 10 19:19:39 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:19:39 -0700 Subject: still looking for that stuff? In-Reply-To: References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> Message-ID: <6ed08677-bbfd-7318-0d12-5285f8aa2c0b@jwsss.com> On 8/10/2016 4:47 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > Spam? Yes, most worms that attack such as web mail sites will harvest all the email addresses from the compromised account and seed emails to those addresses. In this case note the typical symptom, which is a large cc list. I don't know why the program isn't built to omit that, but cctalk seldom if ever sends any ccs. Same for Yahoo crap like this. Also note the compromised account may not be actually compromised where it is hosted and changing the passwords by the user on the list will do no good. finding a new email provider will. yahoo has had this for at least 10 years I know of, and I think it is an internal undetected fault in their servers that is allowing it. Just noting since I see many such emails both here and on yahoo group postings in groups I belong to. thanks Jim > On Aug 10, 2016 6:30 PM, "cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org" > wrote: > >> Hey friend, >> >> Are you still lookinf for that stuff? I think I've just seen >> someething you may like, look >> >> >> Very truly yours, cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> >> >> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 10 19:41:35 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: still looking for that stuff? In-Reply-To: <6ed08677-bbfd-7318-0d12-5285f8aa2c0b@jwsss.com> References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> <6ed08677-bbfd-7318-0d12-5285f8aa2c0b@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Aug 2016, jim stephens wrote: > Also note the compromised account may not be actually compromised where it is > hosted and changing the passwords by the user on the list will do no good. > finding a new email provider will. Not necessarily. Consider: System Z gets compromised. Whether whole system, or just addressbook of a a user account. >From that address book, the perp acquires addresses A,B,C,D, etc. He then sends emails that purport to be from A, to B, C, D, and Z. Everybody is yelling at A that his account has been compromised, when the only fault of A's account is that Z's addressbook knew his email address. If A changes his password, or email provider, or changes his email address, it will not have any effect on the volume of mail that purports to come from A's original address. The only thing that would help would be to compare the FROM: email address to the machine(s) that it actually came from. I doubt that even this mailing list server does any verification other than whether the FROM: address is on the list, not where it came from. Blocking the sending of more than x messages per hour would almost work, except that it would need to set up exceptions for "legitimate" mass mailings, such as this list. Blocking the transmission of mass mailings would cripple legitimate uses, such as this list. Spam will not stop until the last spammer is dead. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Aug 10 19:57:39 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] In-Reply-To: References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> <6ed08677-bbfd-7318-0d12-5285f8aa2c0b@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <201608110057.UAA28013@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Spam will not stop until the last spammer is dead. Actually, it's really simple to stop spam. Simple, not easy. You just need to delegate responsibility along with authority when handing out netblocks, registering domain names, and the like. Today, this is being done in theory but not in practice, and I ascribe the worst of today's net's ills to the responsibility/authority mismatch. But, of course, it can't work without the will to enforce it at the top of the pyramid, and I see no sign of any there now. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 10 20:08:58 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 21:08:58 -0400 Subject: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] In-Reply-To: <201608110057.UAA28013@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> <6ed08677-bbfd-7318-0d12-5285f8aa2c0b@jwsss.com> <201608110057.UAA28013@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <072A35D5-700D-47F4-8434-ED9FE84AA2D2@comcast.net> > On Aug 10, 2016, at 8:57 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> Spam will not stop until the last spammer is dead. > > Actually, it's really simple to stop spam. Simple, not easy. > > You just need to delegate responsibility along with authority when > handing out netblocks, registering domain names, and the like. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The trouble with email is that the addresses you see are just text strings in a protocol that has no security or authentication. The route data in the full headers tend to tell a more accurate story, but the "from" string is just a string that carries no weight whatsoever. It's undoubtedly possible to design protocols that don't have this defect, but SMTP is not such a protocol. (Nor is SMTP the only one, witnessing the famous "kremvax" hoax.) paul From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Aug 10 20:59:03 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 21:59:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] In-Reply-To: <072A35D5-700D-47F4-8434-ED9FE84AA2D2@comcast.net> References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> <6ed08677-bbfd-7318-0d12-5285f8aa2c0b@jwsss.com> <201608110057.UAA28013@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <072A35D5-700D-47F4-8434-ED9FE84AA2D2@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201608110159.VAA19707@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Actually, it's really simple to stop spam. Simple, not easy. >> You just need to delegate responsibility along with authority when >> handing out netblocks, registering domain names, and the like. > I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The trouble with email is that th$ That's a technical issue. The probjlem is not technical. In a civilized net, I could write to the postmaster at the host that handed me the spam, who would then either smack down their local user or chase the pointer to the next hop, as applicable. Postmasters that refused to act against abusers would find themselves without connectivity, because providers would enforce terms-of-service against them. (Providers that refused to do so would find themselves without address space and/or peering. This chases up the governance pyramid, hence the remark about needing will-to-enforce at the top.) Time was - say, back when Jon Postel, rather than the US Department of Commerce, was the top of the pyramid - back about when the MicroVAX-II was new, to put it in terms people here can relate to :-) - I could have lost my access for forging email. Today? Today I'd be surprised if anyone even noticed, much less cared. And nobody caring, and being permitted to not care all the way up the governance chain, is exactly the problem I'm talking about. I suppose that's what happens when you put the Department of Commerce in charge of something. As long as it doesn't collapse far enough to stop concentrating money in the hands of large corporations, there's nothing wrong with it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 10 21:16:47 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 21:16:47 -0500 Subject: still looking for that stuff? In-Reply-To: References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> Message-ID: <000401d1f376$6a3f7850$3ebe68f0$@classiccmp.org> Re: spam Yes... it's rare, but it does once in a great while make it to the list. Either one of the moderators accidentally approved it, or, it was sent by a listmember that's subscribed and automatically gets through. I think that 100% of the list spam in recent memory has been originating from the same member account, not positive though. I'll look in to it.... J From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Aug 10 21:53:16 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 21:53:16 -0500 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57ABE89C.4030401@pico-systems.com> On 08/10/2016 09:45 AM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 8/10/2016 7:04 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: >> On 10 August 2016 at 15:22, wrote: >>> I successfully took a (factory new) DEC TSZ07 SCSI tape >>> drive into operation using a Sun SS20 and a Linux box. >>> >>> Now I do have a big pile of CDC, DEC, HP, Convex and IBM >>> tapes and I'd like to create tape images to file to save >>> the tapes content. >>> >>> What is the to be preferred procedure to image the >>> tapes, which software to use and which kind of format to >>> store the images? >> fwiw, I made my own format when I archived all my old >> tapes. A very simple one: >> - I read the tape record by record >> - The output disk file contains a 4-byte integer in big >> endian format, >> followed by one record. >> - The 4-byte integer contains the physical record size as >> read from the tape. >> - Then another 4-byte value plus a new record, and so on. >> - End-of-file markers are encoded by using 0 as the value >> for the >> 4-byte integer, with no record following (logically enough). > I'd find a way to get it to some format acceptable to simh > as a lot of the tapes you have will probably work on > emulators. There are already utilities for going to and > from that, and perhaps even some that will compile and run > on your hardware to go from SCSI devices or serial block > devices to that format. > I did something similar. I already had some tape container unpackers for other systems. I had some old VMS BACKUP tapes that I wanted to unpack. First, I extracted the save set from the container file, just turning it into a byte stream. Then, I fed it to the vmsbackup program, available from Stephen Hoffman. The command is : vmsbackup -xe -b 8192 -f and it will build the directory tree where you currently are. (If blocksize is not 8192, substitute in above command.) It was REALLY COOL to have my entire VMS home directory tree magically appear on my Linux system! I believe I had to compile vmsbackup from source, there were some executables online but they were out of date. Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 10 22:03:38 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 03:03:38 +0000 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <1b0b4695-5176-2914-53e6-176338b565eb@sydex.com> References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> <79095672-563a-bf5f-1faa-9f9ceb9a5cac@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED5547E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>, <1b0b4695-5176-2914-53e6-176338b565eb@sydex.com> Message-ID: I guess I'm not with the rest. I'd prefer ascii HEX format. SIMH may not be around in 50 or 100 years. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 12:38:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tape imaging On 08/10/2016 11:34 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Chuck Guzis > It's too bad that the Time Capsule File System invented more than > twenty years ago at MIT never took off: > > http://www.boogles.com/local/papers/tcfs-thesis/thesis.html Yup, I recall seeing that. In my case, I append (after the .tap EOI marker) my metadata records, including a transfer log generated in real time. Most SIMH software doesn't look past EOI if reading, so that's okay. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 10 23:30:58 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 21:30:58 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> <79095672-563a-bf5f-1faa-9f9ceb9a5cac@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED5547E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <1b0b4695-5176-2914-53e6-176338b565eb@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 08/10/2016 08:03 PM, dwight wrote: > I guess I'm not with the rest. I'd prefer ascii HEX format. > > SIMH may not be around in 50 or 100 years. 50 years ago, ASCII (USASCII) wasn't terribly common, except on 7-level TTY. A lot of machines used 6-bit codes and IBM's new line of S/360 used EBCDIC. But I think I've run exactly one emulation on SIMH--IBM 1620--and it didn't involve tape. I chose the SIMH .TAP format because it was formally documented. I include a copy of the document with every tape job. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 10 19:08:04 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:08:04 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <77426BA3-EE1B-4E31-8D43-EAADC374D636@comcast.net> References: <77426BA3-EE1B-4E31-8D43-EAADC374D636@comcast.net> Message-ID: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ On 8/10/16 8:22 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Aug 10, 2016, at 9:22 AM, aswood at t-online.de wrote: >> >> I successfully took a (factory new) DEC TSZ07 SCSI tape drive into operation using a Sun SS20 and a Linux box. >> >> Now I do have a big pile of CDC, DEC, HP, Convex and IBM tapes and I'd like to create tape images to file to save the tapes content. >> >> What is the to be preferred procedure to image the tapes, which software to use and which kind of format to store the images? > > Tor gave one answer, and it is certainly a useable one. But the more straightforward answer is to use an existing well-defined format. "TAP" format, as used in SIMH, will do nicely. There are slight variations in that format, but I'd suggest looking at the SIMH documentation for a description and using that. The summary description is in the SIMH User's Guide, appendix A.3. > > I believe there are off the shelf open source tools to read a SCSI tape on Unix and generate a .TAP format file from it, but I haven't used them so I don't have the names at my fingertips. > > You may end up needing to do some postprocessing for some machines, depending on what precise format those emulators want. For the case of CDC, TAP format is good because DtCyber uses that as well. > > paul > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 22:22:01 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:22:01 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <77426BA3-EE1B-4E31-8D43-EAADC374D636@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ > Also, if you want something to run on MS-DOS: http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/st.txt http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/st.exe http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/st.c http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/st.h http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/st.lnk Program: ST.EXE Description: ST is a SCSI tape utility program for DOS. It is intended for use with 9-track tapes or anything that acts like one -- 4mm DAT, 8mm (sort of), DLT, or DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA drives. It requires a DOS ASPI driver for talking to the SCSI port (e.g. ASPI8XX.SYS for Symbios 53C8xx based controllers, or ASPI8DOS.SYS for Adaptec AIC-78xx based ones such as the AHA2940xx). The commands are mostly a subset of the commands of the UNIX "mt" program. You can get a list by just typing "ST". Each command generally translates directly to one SCSI command, so this program is intended for simple dinking around (actually I wrote it just as a demo), nothing fancy. The only complicated commands are IGET and IPUT, which get a tape into an image file, or put an image file onto a tape. These are intended for transferring between Ersatz-11's image file format and actual tapes. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Aug 11 00:40:51 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 22:40:51 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> <79095672-563a-bf5f-1faa-9f9ceb9a5cac@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED5547E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <1b0b4695-5176-2914-53e6-176338b565eb@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8cd55ce1-c1c0-dabb-4d52-c09e55fb8258@jwsss.com> On 8/10/2016 9:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/10/2016 08:03 PM, dwight wrote: >> I guess I'm not with the rest. I'd prefer ascii HEX format. >> >> SIMH may not be around in 50 or 100 years. > 50 years ago, ASCII (USASCII) wasn't terribly common, except on 7-level > TTY. A lot of machines used 6-bit codes and IBM's new line of S/360 > used EBCDIC. > > But I think I've run exactly one emulation on SIMH--IBM 1620--and it > didn't involve tape. Richard Swingwood has ported my Microdata 1600 emulation into simh, and every bit of software I have so far survives because of half inch tapes. That which was on punched card source form was read to disk and is backed up on tape, so TAP is what we are using. I also have a converter to go to AWS for mainframe Hercules stuff. The Microdata M1621 Ascii is a weird ascii with the high order bit on in the character set, similar to EBCDIC, so the representation is important. I think the OS you are on dictates that to some degree as far as sequencing the records as I did initially, but it is all moved to TAP once that is done. No real concensus on metadata, though I think there was discussion about dumping it after the logical EOT, either two or three tape marks in the container, either TAP or AWS tape format. YMMV > I chose the SIMH .TAP format because it was formally documented. I > include a copy of the document with every tape job. > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 11 01:38:17 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 23:38:17 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <8cd55ce1-c1c0-dabb-4d52-c09e55fb8258@jwsss.com> References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> <79095672-563a-bf5f-1faa-9f9ceb9a5cac@sydex.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AED5547E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <1b0b4695-5176-2914-53e6-176338b565eb@sydex.com> <8cd55ce1-c1c0-dabb-4d52-c09e55fb8258@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 08/10/2016 10:40 PM, jim stephens wrote: > The Microdata M1621 Ascii is a weird ascii with the high order bit on > in the character set, similar to EBCDIC, so the representation is > important. I think the OS you are on dictates that to some degree > as far as sequencing the records as I did initially, but it is all > moved to TAP once that is done. Just like the PRIME PRIMOS convention. Makes it easier to pick out strings from a MAGSAV archive. > No real concensus on metadata, though I think there was discussion > about dumping it after the logical EOT, either two or three tape > marks in the container, either TAP or AWS tape format. There is an EOM record in the .tap format = 0xffffffff - all ones. No need for extra filemarks. After that just add standard 32-bit bytecount headers and trailers to bracket each set of metadata and put whatever you want between them. Add a final EOM flag just for completeness' sake. My gripe with .tap has been mentioned before--there's no standard way to specify the *type* of error encountered--just that the high-order bit is an error flag with the lower 24 bits corresponding to the length of the error block. Perhaps the unspecified 7 bits between the error flag and the length could be put to this purpose. Again, we're caught with the problem of those who just want data and those who want more than the raw data. --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 02:12:14 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 00:12:14 -0700 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For some reason the 7474's have a higher failure rate than other TTL IC's in HP equipment. I don't know if it's true in general for 1970's TTL. Signetics MSI chips (counters and stuff) seem to be prone to failure too. Marc > > All this talk of older test equipment reminds me of the HP 4261A LCR > bridge I repaired a while back, last winter I think. > > > My dad found the 4261A in the garbage years ago, and it seemed to work > fine, until one day he powered it up and the display showed garbage. > He decided to open it up, and noticed some uncovered windowed EPROMs. > Knowing that EPROMs sometimes flip bits in their old age, we decided > that was the first place we would look. We were also able to locate > the full HP service manual in PDF form for the instrument which helped > tremendously. In typical HP fashion, it had full theory of operation, > schematics, state diagrams, etc. > > > Now, I have an EPROM burner that does your typical JEDEC pinout parts, > 27 series and such. The issue is that these were Intel i1702A's from > the early 70's I think. Not only are 1702's a totally different > pinout, but they run on 14V (a +5V, and a -9V rail, with no connected > ground, this is how intel got TTL levels on a MOS chip at the time). > The 4261A has a total of 4 1702's, two of which form a finite state > machine which controls the instrument, while the other two perform > display decoding. > > > I had to pull out my dad's DeVry Console 80, which has adjustable > positive and negative supplies, and I manually clocked out the data > and compared the contents to a dump I found online. I started with the > state machine EPROMs, and compared the data. I did find a few > discrepancies, but there was too much difference to have been bit rot. > Given the sudden nature of the issue, I would have expected one, at > most a couple bit flips, or something much more drastic (like total > chip failure). Upon reading through the state diagrams in the HP > manual, I noticed that there was a change noted in the state diagram > between certain minor revisions of the 4261A. I looked at what the > changes were, and deduced that my ROMs were in fact correct for the > serial number prefix. > > > At a dead end with the EPROMs, I decided to see if the state machine > was even running at all. I used a DVM in DC mode, and measured perfect > TTL ones and zeroes on all the state number outputs, which means those > outputs weren't changing: the state machine was stuck. I wrote down > the state it was stuck in and referred to the state diagram. I noticed > something interesting. The state machine in the 4261A is able to > evaluate simple conditions and control flow based on those. The state > path to get to the state that the FSM was stuck on meant the FSM was > always taking one of the conditional paths (always true, or always > false, I don't remember which). At that point, I started looking into > the condition circuitry, tracing out the path, checking IC's as I > worked my way back, until I made it back to 1/2 of a 7474 which had a > set input that was stuck active (low). This pin went to a pullup > resistor, and nothing else in our unit (certain options used this pin, > but not ours). We desoldered the IC, and sure enough, that pin was > shorted to ground internal to the chip. We replaced it with a 74LS74, > and the 4261A has been working great ever since, even with the > original 40 year old 1702's. > > > Also, on the topic of interesting HP products, and perhaps my personal > favorite so far, is the HP dynamic signal analyzer 35670A. This > instrument can perform all sorts of cool measurements. It can produce > a test signal, and measure two different points in the circuit being > measured. The measurement input channels give you a complex number > phasor of the measured signal, which means you can do all sorts of > cool measurements of networks, especially since you can do complex > number math with the equation support of the instrument. The signal > generator will perform sweeps too, of course. This was very useful > determining whether the speaker crossovers my dad built were working > as intended (actually they weren't, and this instrument helped us > uncover a problem). We also used this to do inductor and capacitor > characterization. There are all sorts of applications this instrument > is good for. > > > Joe Zatarski From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 02:20:17 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 09:20:17 +0200 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> References: <57AB3D5C.8030204@bitsavers.org> <4d089516-8221-aa0b-175b-6360e1ec7b9b@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On 08/10/2016 07:42 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> congratulations, you reinvented .tap format.. badly. >> >> how did you handle unreadable blocks. I didn't. I didn't have any unreadable blocks. I have CCTs that I made (and sometimes got elsewhere) going back to the eighties. No read errors. I simply needed a way to a) get a copy that I could use to later write a new tape, with original records, and b) extract the content when the original minicomputers were gone. And that format worked for that, and saved all my data. Incidentally it made for an easy way to create a DLT tape duplicator (via disk) later, when I suddenly needed one. In short, it served my purpose perfectly and didn't need any research, finding software somewhere, port it, blabla. It's a very simple format which can be implemented and tested in a day, and does the job, unlike trying to e.g. 'dd' a tape. I don't even need to look up the 'protocol' if I need to write a new tool later. It can't possibly be simpler, and yet it does the job. On 10 August 2016 at 17:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Additionally, how was the metadata handled? (i.e. information about > equipment used, paper labels, maybe a photo of the tape reel itself?). Paper labels are short. The output file of the above process was stored together with a 'label file', a short text file with what's written on the label. And I would sometimes add some extra info if I looked through the content (with some other software I wrote, and depending on what the original format was). I didn't see any need for storing info about the physical tape itself, e.g. 1600 or 6250 bpi, or reel size. I have yet to find a need for that. When I could, I would note (with the label) what kind of software was used to write the tape (e.g. VMS ANSI tape, or Norsk Data backup-system format, or whatever). But the important aspect was simply to have a disk file in a format which reflected the original written tape, so that the disk file itself could be used to later extract the content, with other tools. That can't be done with any format that doesn't store the original record information, except for record-less formats like 'tar' (record-less in the sense that the physical record size isn't part of the format, unlike e.g. ANSI tapes). For my purposes I also haven't found any need of further equipment information, e.g. which tape drive was used to read the tape (I only own one anyway, and I can't see that it would make any difference if I had more than one). And I also don't need info about what kind of drive was used to write the tape, there's no way to find out anyway (other than investigating what was installed at each site at the time the tapes were originally written). From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Aug 11 02:53:31 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 00:53:31 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging Message-ID: <4blqt0rfytwed41fowkuwuux.1470902011801@email.android.com> Have the tape sets from the phx univac operations center that need to be imaged some day!Ed# Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Al Kossow Date: 8/10/16 17:10 (GMT-07:00) To: cctech at classiccmp.org, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Tape imaging Related, since it hasn't been mentioned on this list. Tom Hunter just got a release from CDC for the use of CDC software for non-commercial use, so any CDC tapes out in the wild are going to be of great interest. On 8/10/16 6:22 AM, aswood at t-online.de wrote: > Now I do have a big pile of CDC, DEC, HP, Convex and IBM tapes and I'd like to create tape images to file to save the tapes content. From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Aug 11 02:53:31 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 00:53:31 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging Message-ID: <4blqt0rfytwed41fowkuwuux.1470902011801@email.android.com> Have the tape sets from the phx univac operations center that need to be imaged some day!Ed# Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Al Kossow Date: 8/10/16 17:10 (GMT-07:00) To: cctech at classiccmp.org, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Tape imaging Related, since it hasn't been mentioned on this list. Tom Hunter just got a release from CDC for the use of CDC software for non-commercial use, so any CDC tapes out in the wild are going to be of great interest. On 8/10/16 6:22 AM, aswood at t-online.de wrote: > Now I do have a big pile of CDC, DEC, HP, Convex and IBM tapes and I'd like to create tape images to file to save the tapes content. From tsg at bonedaddy.net Thu Aug 11 07:51:25 2016 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 08:51:25 -0400 Subject: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] In-Reply-To: <201608110159.VAA19707@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> <6ed08677-bbfd-7318-0d12-5285f8aa2c0b@jwsss.com> <201608110057.UAA28013@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <072A35D5-700D-47F4-8434-ED9FE84AA2D2@comcast.net> <201608110159.VAA19707@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20160811125125.bxta75i7ac5wvh7f@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Mouse [160810 21:59]: [..SNIP..] > I suppose that's what happens when you put the Department of Commerce > in charge of something. As long as it doesn't collapse far enough to > stop concentrating money in the hands of large corporations, there's > nothing wrong with it. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B That's what happens when you put a government in charge of anything. My $.02, Todd From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 08:25:08 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 09:25:08 -0400 Subject: Atlanta Open House Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <7c650aa8-b273-2bc7-39b8-069e6702abcf@bitsavers.org> References: <000401d1f35e$73bee220$5b3ca660$@classiccmp.org> <7c650aa8-b273-2bc7-39b8-069e6702abcf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > If anyone goes there would you PLEASE look for a Qume 201 and Televideo 965 keyboard for me Likewise, I'm looking for a couple of AT&T/Teletype keyboards for my 5620/Blit and my 730+. They do _not_ have a round DIN plug, which distinguishes them from 98% of what's out there. They have an 8p8c connector ("RJ-45"). There are several matching keyboards with different numbers of keys (~98-103). 56K-341-AAN is one part number. Keyboards that will work are the same ones used on the AT&T 4410 and Teletype 5410 terminal. I'm also seeing part numbers in the technical drawings (http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/att/5620/att5620_eng.pdf pp 87-95) like: 56K224 56K229 56K230 410896 410967 It appears to have 6 of the 8 pins in use - serial in, serial out, +5V, -12V, signal GND, and frame GND (it makes its own -5V for the MCU from a zener diode on the -12V line). All of this plus the 1.8432MHz crystal, suggest to me a simple async protocol. This would make a keyboard emulator simple to construct once someone has sniffed the protocol. One is good. Two is better. Thanks, -ethan From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Aug 11 09:15:32 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 09:15:32 -0500 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 05:10:54PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > Tom Hunter just got a release from CDC for the use of CDC software for > non-commercial use, so any CDC tapes out in the wild are going to be of > great interest. Congratulations to Tom. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Aug 11 09:15:32 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 09:15:32 -0500 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 05:10:54PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > Tom Hunter just got a release from CDC for the use of CDC software for > non-commercial use, so any CDC tapes out in the wild are going to be of > great interest. Congratulations to Tom. mcl From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 11 09:30:00 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 07:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] In-Reply-To: <201608110057.UAA28013@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> <6ed08677-bbfd-7318-0d12-5285f8aa2c0b@jwsss.com> <201608110057.UAA28013@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Aug 2016, Mouse wrote: >> Spam will not stop until the last spammer is dead. > > Actually, it's really simple to stop spam. Simple, not easy. > > You just need to delegate responsibility along with authority when > handing out netblocks, registering domain names, and the like. > I think it would be more effective to stuff the spammer into a Brazen Bull and then force his children/family members to light the fire. Televise it across all media outlets. Spam should slow to a tiny, tiny, trickle after one or two of these little events... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 11 10:52:06 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 08:52:06 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 08/11/2016 07:15 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 05:10:54PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >> Tom Hunter just got a release from CDC for the use of CDC software >> for non-commercial use, so any CDC tapes out in the wild are going >> to be of great interest. > > Congratulations to Tom. Indeed, Much, if not all, of the early 1604/160A/3000/6000 stuff is going to be 7-track clear through the 1970s. Hope someone has a decent drive to read the tapes that come up. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 11 10:37:33 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 08:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] In-Reply-To: References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> <6ed08677-bbfd-7318-0d12-5285f8aa2c0b@jwsss.com> <201608110057.UAA28013@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Aug 2016, geneb wrote: > I think it would be more effective to stuff the spammer into a Brazen Bull > and then force his children/family members to light the fire. Televise it > across all media outlets. Spam should slow to a tiny, tiny, trickle after > one or two of these little events... Spam should reduce when word gets around that spammers are being tortured to death. Decriminalize spammercide. Spread the word - "spammers are already being murdered." From andy.holt at tesco.net Thu Aug 11 11:48:43 2016 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:48:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <540244393.252702.1470934123056.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> >> Spam will not stop until the last spammer is dead. > > Actually, it's really simple to stop spam. Simple, not easy. > > You just need to delegate responsibility along with authority when > handing out netblocks, registering domain names, and the like. When there were only tens of thousands of mail nodes (few of which had more than a few thousand accounts it was practical to put the responsibility on postmasters. With tens of millions (often with millions of customers) that is no longer so. From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 13:04:59 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 13:04:59 -0500 Subject: Atlanta Open House Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <000401d1f35e$73bee220$5b3ca660$@classiccmp.org> References: <000401d1f35e$73bee220$5b3ca660$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: How much for the LSI ADM-3A terminal ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxqLDyoLYuCKekFoYnJqR1NBLWs/view?usp=sharing )? Any idea on condition? On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Jay West wrote: > I'm reposting this because I set the time on the classiccmp server > incorrectly (forgot to add 12). Just in case the important post below > showed > up earlier in folks inbox, I wanted to make sure it showed up. > > > > I'm posting this on behalf of Cindy at Elecplus > > > > I can't post to cctalk when I am away from home. I am in Atlanta, and the > owner of the warehouse hs agreed to let people come in tomorrow. Please can > you post the following for me? > > > > First come first served, no shipping on the really cheap items. Model M > 101/103 terminal keyboards $10 each, no cracked cases, may not have > complete > caps. Hundreds of keyboards for other terminals starting at $30 each, > tested > and complete. A full pallet of AEK 1 and 2 keyboards > > > > More expensive items include a Burroughs keyboard, complete and in good > condition, a 1978 terminal in working condition, and the following > terminals/keyboards, tested, no screen burn, keyboards are complete. DEC > VT100 (no keyboards), 220, 320, 420.Wyse 50 and 60 with keyboards. Qume 62 > and 101+ with keyboards.Link MC2 and 3 with keyboards. ADDS 4000 with > keyboards. HP 700/22, 700/43, 700/60, 700/90, 700/92, 700/94, 700/96 with > keyboards. > > > > LOTS of working vintage test equip. Some pics are here: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKbkEwdmlST2lKaUU > > > > Thank you! > > > > Cindy > > > > > > -- Eric Christopherson From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Aug 11 15:08:39 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:08:39 -0400 Subject: VAX file format conversion Message-ID: I have a MicroVax 4000 that I am trying to update the license PAKs on, the last time I had valid PAKs on this machine was in 2002 (Hobbyist Licenses). I registered and have received the new Hobbyist License PAKs. I connected a laptop and transferred the text file using C-Kermit on the VAX and hyperterminal on the laptop. When I go to execute the file, I get an error: $@hobbyist-use-only-va.txt %RMS-W-RTB 512 bye record to large for user buffer It appears that when the file was transferred it showed up on the vax with fixed length records of 512 bytes, not variable length. Can I convert the file on the VAX? Is there a setting for C-Kermit that I need to change? Is Hyperterminal screwing things up? Doug From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 15:22:00 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:22:00 -0400 Subject: VAX file format conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > $@hobbyist-use-only-va.txt > > %RMS-W-RTB 512 bye record to large for user buffer > > It appears that when the file was transferred it showed up on the vax with > fixed length records of 512 bytes, not variable length. Not an unusual occurrence with moving files to VMS. > Can I convert the file on the VAX? There may be an easy way to do that, depending if you've lost the line terminators or not. What does it look like when you TYPE the file or EDIT it? > Is there a setting for C-Kermit that I need to change? http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/faq-c-bix.html VMS C-Kermit ignores "SET FILE TYPE" on send and uses the RMS record type (Fixed or Stream_LF) instead. I used to use C-Kermit a lot and remember having to SET FILE TYPE TEXT on both ends to get good files through. We also used a program named BACKPACK.EXE to encode variable-length record filetypes (.OBJ, .OLB, etc.) into plaintext files and back. Much like uudecode/decode fits 8-bit binary data into printable ASCII, BACKPACK.EXE also encodes the record length and the RMS filetype metadata so that the reconstructed file is identical to the original. -ethan From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Aug 11 15:26:06 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 14:26:06 -0600 Subject: VAX file format conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-08-11 14:08, Douglas Taylor wrote: > I have a MicroVax 4000 that I am trying to update the license PAKs on, > the last time I had valid PAKs on this machine was in 2002 (Hobbyist > Licenses). > > I registered and have received the new Hobbyist License PAKs. > > I connected a laptop and transferred the text file using C-Kermit on the > VAX and hyperterminal on the laptop. > > When I go to execute the file, I get an error: > > $@hobbyist-use-only-va.txt > > %RMS-W-RTB 512 bye record to large for user buffer > > It appears that when the file was transferred it showed up on the vax > with fixed length records of 512 bytes, not variable length. > > Can I convert the file on the VAX? > > Is there a setting for C-Kermit that I need to change? > > Is Hyperterminal screwing things up? I usually just send it a textfile, so open the editor, put it in input mode, download the file, save it. Don't forget, to make a dealy after every ... From isking at uw.edu Thu Aug 11 15:47:27 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 13:47:27 -0700 Subject: VAX file format conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 1:26 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2016-08-11 14:08, Douglas Taylor wrote: > >> I have a MicroVax 4000 that I am trying to update the license PAKs on, >> the last time I had valid PAKs on this machine was in 2002 (Hobbyist >> Licenses). >> >> I registered and have received the new Hobbyist License PAKs. >> >> I connected a laptop and transferred the text file using C-Kermit on the >> VAX and hyperterminal on the laptop. >> >> When I go to execute the file, I get an error: >> >> $@hobbyist-use-only-va.txt >> >> %RMS-W-RTB 512 bye record to large for user buffer >> >> It appears that when the file was transferred it showed up on the vax >> with fixed length records of 512 bytes, not variable length. >> >> Can I convert the file on the VAX? >> >> Is there a setting for C-Kermit that I need to change? >> >> Is Hyperterminal screwing things up? >> > > I usually just send it a textfile, so open the editor, put it in input > mode, download the file, save it. Don't forget, to make a dealy after every > ... > > I've always just set the terminal emulator to a slow per-character rate and pushed it into the console. As long as VMS can process each line before the next one starts, you should be golden. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From isking at uw.edu Thu Aug 11 15:49:24 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 13:49:24 -0700 Subject: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] In-Reply-To: <540244393.252702.1470934123056.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <540244393.252702.1470934123056.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 9:48 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > > >> Spam will not stop until the last spammer is dead. > > > > Actually, it's really simple to stop spam. Simple, not easy. > > > > You just need to delegate responsibility along with authority when > > handing out netblocks, registering domain names, and the like. > > When there were only tens of thousands of mail nodes (few of which had > more than a > few thousand accounts it was practical to put the responsibility on > postmasters. > With tens of millions (often with millions of customers) that is no longer > so. > "Every time you send a spam message, you kill a kitten. Think of the kittens. Unless you're a dog person - then think of the puppies." -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Aug 11 15:55:13 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:55:13 -0400 Subject: VAX file format conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b044d40-3f7c-73d6-8713-8c78fe63b94b@comcast.net> On 8/11/2016 4:47 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 1:26 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > >> On 2016-08-11 14:08, Douglas Taylor wrote: >> >>> I have a MicroVax 4000 that I am trying to update the license PAKs on, >>> the last time I had valid PAKs on this machine was in 2002 (Hobbyist >>> Licenses). >>> >>> I registered and have received the new Hobbyist License PAKs. >>> >>> I connected a laptop and transferred the text file using C-Kermit on the >>> VAX and hyperterminal on the laptop. >>> >>> When I go to execute the file, I get an error: >>> >>> $@hobbyist-use-only-va.txt >>> >>> %RMS-W-RTB 512 bye record to large for user buffer >>> >>> It appears that when the file was transferred it showed up on the vax >>> with fixed length records of 512 bytes, not variable length. >>> >>> Can I convert the file on the VAX? >>> >>> Is there a setting for C-Kermit that I need to change? >>> >>> Is Hyperterminal screwing things up? >>> >> I usually just send it a textfile, so open the editor, put it in input >> mode, download the file, save it. Don't forget, to make a dealy after every >> ... >> >> > I've always just set the terminal emulator to a slow per-character rate and > pushed it into the console. As long as VMS can process each line before > the next one starts, you should be golden. -- Ian > Yes, I am using the console port and I do remember using that trick a long time ago. I think I'll try that, and also the set file/attr method. Earlier I tried the trick of going into the editor and blasting the file at the VAX, it didn't work at 9600 baud, I have to show more patience. Doug From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 15:59:13 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:59:13 -0400 Subject: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] In-Reply-To: References: <540244393.252702.1470934123056.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: I remember the first time I encountered spam....1995 or so using my old CompuServe account. One day I was like "what is all this crap?" Now that was some serious spam going on then. Today's is nothing like that if you ask me. I have a nice filter system on my private server. Botta bing. B -- Bill Degnan From sieler at allegro.com Thu Aug 11 16:08:29 2016 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 14:08:29 -0700 Subject: Tape Imaging Message-ID: Joining the list of "my format" posts ... Mine also records retry information (because MPE on the HP 3000 optionally reports if a retry was done to get a successful tape read), and setmarks (which differ from EOFs), as well as error information. (That retry information is important ... it could indicate a silent loss of information.) But, I must admit...it didn't occur to me to store metadata like a photo of the tape, etc. Nice! When copying / archiving tapes ... One important thing to do, depending upon your operating system and tape drive characteristics of course, is to issue read requests for a few bytes more than you expect ... because with some OSs and some kinds of drives, if you ask for X bytes and the record has more than X, you'll quietly get X and the rest will be discarded. (That came up in a court case where I was an expert witness ... an alleged 'expert' had copied a 9-track tape (badly) and lost data because the records were larger than he expected, and his copying tool didn't have that simple safeguard in it.) A second thing is to be somewhat aggressive in reading the 'end' of the tape. The backup tapes I frequently encounter supposedly end with two EOFs in a row ... except for a few that happen to have extra data past that point :) (Of course, with 9 track tapes, you run the risk of going off the end!) (Yes, that begs the question...if you're archiving a tar tape ... do you *want* the data past the first EOF? (Which could be part of a prior (and longer) tar, or something else.)) (And then there are the people who put tar after tar after tar on the same tape :) Stan From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Aug 11 16:30:23 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 17:30:23 -0400 Subject: VAX file format conversion In-Reply-To: <4b044d40-3f7c-73d6-8713-8c78fe63b94b@comcast.net> References: <4b044d40-3f7c-73d6-8713-8c78fe63b94b@comcast.net> Message-ID: <78E7A282-635B-43EF-B531-E89D4C221581@verizon.net> When I do that (not with VAX, but CP/M) I still use 9600, but set character pacing at 20ms and line pacing at 200ms. Slow but it works. Mostly. Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:55 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > >> On 8/11/2016 4:47 PM, Ian S. King wrote: >>> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 1:26 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >>> >>>> On 2016-08-11 14:08, Douglas Taylor wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a MicroVax 4000 that I am trying to update the license PAKs on, >>>> the last time I had valid PAKs on this machine was in 2002 (Hobbyist >>>> Licenses). >>>> >>>> I registered and have received the new Hobbyist License PAKs. >>>> >>>> I connected a laptop and transferred the text file using C-Kermit on the >>>> VAX and hyperterminal on the laptop. >>>> >>>> When I go to execute the file, I get an error: >>>> >>>> $@hobbyist-use-only-va.txt >>>> >>>> %RMS-W-RTB 512 bye record to large for user buffer >>>> >>>> It appears that when the file was transferred it showed up on the vax >>>> with fixed length records of 512 bytes, not variable length. >>>> >>>> Can I convert the file on the VAX? >>>> >>>> Is there a setting for C-Kermit that I need to change? >>>> >>>> Is Hyperterminal screwing things up? >>>> >>> I usually just send it a textfile, so open the editor, put it in input >>> mode, download the file, save it. Don't forget, to make a dealy after every >>> ... >>> >>> >> I've always just set the terminal emulator to a slow per-character rate and >> pushed it into the console. As long as VMS can process each line before >> the next one starts, you should be golden. -- Ian >> > Yes, I am using the console port and I do remember using that trick a long time ago. I think I'll try that, and also the set file/attr method. > > Earlier I tried the trick of going into the editor and blasting the file at the VAX, it didn't work at 9600 baud, I have to show more patience. > > Doug > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Aug 11 16:32:09 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 14:32:09 -0700 Subject: SWTPC keyboard foil patterns Message-ID: <0js28t0lmt8bbp804leqag54.1470950936133@email.android.com> Hey guys, In Don Lancaster's 'Low cost keyboard and ascii encoder' article (Apr 1974), he mentions in the parts list that the SWTPC keyboard mentioned in the article had foil patterns available, full size, free on request. ?I was wondering if anyone out there had them or knew where they might be found. ?I checked SWTPC and Tinaja but they only have the article. ?I've emailed Don in case he had them but probably doubtful. Reason I ask is I was rather pleased with how my original TVT reproduction boards turned out, and I have a second CT1024 terminal here in need of a keyboard. ?Rather than rigging something up I thought maybe I could just recreate the PCB. ?I can already make the keycaps and the switches themselves are not beyond my ability either. Many thanks in advance if anyone has these. Brad Sent from my Samsung device From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 11 20:43:28 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 18:43:28 -0700 Subject: Tape Imaging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6a5e8ec8-2260-4d72-a497-8744517792bc@sydex.com> On 08/11/2016 02:08 PM, Stan Sieler wrote: > One important thing to do, depending upon your operating system and > tape drive characteristics of course, is to issue read requests for a > few bytes more than you expect ... because with some OSs and some > kinds of drives, if you ask for X bytes and the record has more than > X, you'll quietly get X and the rest will be discarded. (That came > up in a court case where I was an expert witness ... an alleged > 'expert' had copied a 9-track tape (badly) and lost data because the > records were larger than he expected, and his copying tool didn't > have that simple safeguard in it.) If you're using a SCSI drive, that's pretty simple to read the tape in "variable" block mode, leaving a generous buffer--the result sense status will tell how much was read. Pertec drives are super-stupid, so you start reading and counting bytes until the block ends. > A second thing is to be somewhat aggressive in reading the 'end' of > the tape. The backup tapes I frequently encounter supposedly end with > two EOFs in a row ... except for a few that happen to have extra data > past that point :) (Of course, with 9 track tapes, you run the risk > of going off the end!) I've had a couple of tapes with "fooler" double file marks. The first was a zero-length file--had I thought to look at the block count (000000) in the HDR label, it would have been obvious. The second was a bit more involved--the tape started off in 6250 GCR mode and read to EOF just fine. However, I picked up perhaps half a MB of data, which seemed too little for a 10" reel. Rewind, manually set the density to 1600 and read, letting the drive skip over what was now interpreted as erased tape. What followed was a complete half-reel of 1600 data that would have been lost. My guess is that someone had an "oh sh*t" moment, reset the density manually and finished the tape off in the lower density as intended. I don't know if this could be recovered with most SCSI streamers, which don't allow density changes except at BOT. War stories...I love 'em. --Chuck > > (Yes, that begs the question...if you're archiving a tar tape ... do > you *want* the data past the first EOF? (Which could be part of a > prior (and longer) tar, or something else.)) (And then there are the > people who put tar after tar after tar on the same tape :) > > Stan > -- --Chuck ------------------------------------------------------------- "The first thing we do, let's kill all the spammers." From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Aug 11 20:56:35 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 21:56:35 -0400 Subject: VAX file format conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46dc7672-0518-873d-f3b8-705b1fe81dc3@comcast.net> On 8/11/2016 4:47 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 1:26 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > >> On 2016-08-11 14:08, Douglas Taylor wrote: >> >>> I have a MicroVax 4000 that I am trying to update the license PAKs on, >>> the last time I had valid PAKs on this machine was in 2002 (Hobbyist >>> Licenses). >>> >>> I registered and have received the new Hobbyist License PAKs. >>> >>> I connected a laptop and transferred the text file using C-Kermit on the >>> VAX and hyperterminal on the laptop. >>> >>> When I go to execute the file, I get an error: >>> >>> $@hobbyist-use-only-va.txt >>> >>> %RMS-W-RTB 512 bye record to large for user buffer >>> >>> It appears that when the file was transferred it showed up on the vax >>> with fixed length records of 512 bytes, not variable length. >>> >>> Can I convert the file on the VAX? >>> >>> Is there a setting for C-Kermit that I need to change? >>> >>> Is Hyperterminal screwing things up? >>> >> I usually just send it a textfile, so open the editor, put it in input >> mode, download the file, save it. Don't forget, to make a dealy after every >> ... >> >> > I've always just set the terminal emulator to a slow per-character rate and > pushed it into the console. As long as VMS can process each line before > the next one starts, you should be golden. -- Ian > Ian ; I set the baud rate for 300, it was torture, but it worked. However, on the vax I had to make sure the terminal width was set to 132. The license file ran past 80 characters occasionally and screwed things up, because the Vax would 'wrap' those lines. The next hurdle is to get the networking functioning again. Are there any tricks I should know about concerning the AUI to 10BaseT adapters? It has been about a dozen years since I last did this and at that time it was working. Doug From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 11 21:20:43 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 19:20:43 -0700 Subject: Tape Imaging In-Reply-To: <6a5e8ec8-2260-4d72-a497-8744517792bc@sydex.com> References: <6a5e8ec8-2260-4d72-a497-8744517792bc@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 8/11/16 6:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know if this could be > recovered with most SCSI streamers, which don't allow density changes > except at BOT. > I've not been able to figure how to do that out on any of the drives I've tried From aswood at t-online.de Thu Aug 11 21:27:55 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 04:27:55 +0200 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> Message-ID: I do have two original CDC 603 tape drives with controller, but to be honest it would be quite a challenge to hook them to a modern system. > Am 11.08.2016 um 17:52 schrieb Chuck Guzis : > >> On 08/11/2016 07:15 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: >>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 05:10:54PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >>> Tom Hunter just got a release from CDC for the use of CDC software >>> for non-commercial use, so any CDC tapes out in the wild are going >>> to be of great interest. >> >> Congratulations to Tom. > > Indeed, Much, if not all, of the early 1604/160A/3000/6000 stuff is > going to be 7-track clear through the 1970s. Hope someone has a decent > drive to read the tapes that come up. > > --Chuck > From aswood at t-online.de Thu Aug 11 21:27:55 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 04:27:55 +0200 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> Message-ID: I do have two original CDC 603 tape drives with controller, but to be honest it would be quite a challenge to hook them to a modern system. > Am 11.08.2016 um 17:52 schrieb Chuck Guzis : > >> On 08/11/2016 07:15 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: >>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 05:10:54PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >>> Tom Hunter just got a release from CDC for the use of CDC software >>> for non-commercial use, so any CDC tapes out in the wild are going >>> to be of great interest. >> >> Congratulations to Tom. > > Indeed, Much, if not all, of the early 1604/160A/3000/6000 stuff is > going to be 7-track clear through the 1970s. Hope someone has a decent > drive to read the tapes that come up. > > --Chuck > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 11 21:36:05 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 19:36:05 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> Message-ID: One of the highest projects I have in the queue is getting one of John's M4 9914V drives with 18 track MR heads running in my new lab at CHM. On 8/11/16 8:52 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Indeed, Much, if not all, of the early 1604/160A/3000/6000 stuff is > going to be 7-track clear through the 1970s. Hope someone has a decent > drive to read the tapes that come up. > From isking at uw.edu Thu Aug 11 21:57:24 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 19:57:24 -0700 Subject: VAX file format conversion In-Reply-To: <46dc7672-0518-873d-f3b8-705b1fe81dc3@comcast.net> References: <46dc7672-0518-873d-f3b8-705b1fe81dc3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 6:56 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > >> Ian ; > > I set the baud rate for 300, it was torture, but it worked. However, on > the vax I had to make sure the terminal width was set to 132. > > The license file ran past 80 characters occasionally and screwed things > up, because the Vax would 'wrap' those lines. > > The next hurdle is to get the networking functioning again. Are there any > tricks I should know about concerning the AUI to 10BaseT adapters? > > It has been about a dozen years since I last did this and at that time it > was working. > > Doug > > It's not so much the baud rate but the character rate, at least for something like a VAX. For a PDP-8, baud rate is important, too! I have used (and continue to use) a lot of those AUI-TP adapters, and they all seemed to be plug-and-play. I've also used old network hubs with BNC connectors to do thinnet networks - necessary for some of my machines. Oh, ISTR that a lot of VAXstations did have a button near the AUI and BNC connectors asking you to choose. Choose wisely, Grasshopper, and you shall be rewarded with packet traffic. Cheers -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 11 22:44:40 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 03:44:40 +0000 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: The y have used Fairchild for their source. If so, that explains the high rate of failure. Years ago when at Intel, we disqualified Fairchild as a source for parts because of the poor testing and high failure rates. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:12:14 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: the value of old test and repair equipment For some reason the 7474's have a higher failure rate than other TTL IC's in HP equipment. I don't know if it's true in general for 1970's TTL. Signetics MSI chips (counters and stuff) seem to be prone to failure too. Marc > > All this talk of older test equipment reminds me of the HP 4261A LCR > bridge I repaired a while back, last winter I think. > > > My dad found the 4261A in the garbage years ago, and it seemed to work > fine, until one day he powered it up and the display showed garbage. > He decided to open it up, and noticed some uncovered windowed EPROMs. > Knowing that EPROMs sometimes flip bits in their old age, we decided > that was the first place we would look. We were also able to locate > the full HP service manual in PDF form for the instrument which helped > tremendously. In typical HP fashion, it had full theory of operation, > schematics, state diagrams, etc. > > > Now, I have an EPROM burner that does your typical JEDEC pinout parts, > 27 series and such. The issue is that these were Intel i1702A's from > the early 70's I think. Not only are 1702's a totally different > pinout, but they run on 14V (a +5V, and a -9V rail, with no connected > ground, this is how intel got TTL levels on a MOS chip at the time). > The 4261A has a total of 4 1702's, two of which form a finite state > machine which controls the instrument, while the other two perform > display decoding. > > > I had to pull out my dad's DeVry Console 80, which has adjustable > positive and negative supplies, and I manually clocked out the data > and compared the contents to a dump I found online. I started with the > state machine EPROMs, and compared the data. I did find a few > discrepancies, but there was too much difference to have been bit rot. > Given the sudden nature of the issue, I would have expected one, at > most a couple bit flips, or something much more drastic (like total > chip failure). Upon reading through the state diagrams in the HP > manual, I noticed that there was a change noted in the state diagram > between certain minor revisions of the 4261A. I looked at what the > changes were, and deduced that my ROMs were in fact correct for the > serial number prefix. > > > At a dead end with the EPROMs, I decided to see if the state machine > was even running at all. I used a DVM in DC mode, and measured perfect > TTL ones and zeroes on all the state number outputs, which means those > outputs weren't changing: the state machine was stuck. I wrote down > the state it was stuck in and referred to the state diagram. I noticed > something interesting. The state machine in the 4261A is able to > evaluate simple conditions and control flow based on those. The state > path to get to the state that the FSM was stuck on meant the FSM was > always taking one of the conditional paths (always true, or always > false, I don't remember which). At that point, I started looking into > the condition circuitry, tracing out the path, checking IC's as I > worked my way back, until I made it back to 1/2 of a 7474 which had a > set input that was stuck active (low). This pin went to a pullup > resistor, and nothing else in our unit (certain options used this pin, > but not ours). We desoldered the IC, and sure enough, that pin was > shorted to ground internal to the chip. We replaced it with a 74LS74, > and the 4261A has been working great ever since, even with the > original 40 year old 1702's. > > > Also, on the topic of interesting HP products, and perhaps my personal > favorite so far, is the HP dynamic signal analyzer 35670A. This > instrument can perform all sorts of cool measurements. It can produce > a test signal, and measure two different points in the circuit being > measured. The measurement input channels give you a complex number > phasor of the measured signal, which means you can do all sorts of > cool measurements of networks, especially since you can do complex > number math with the equation support of the instrument. The signal > generator will perform sweeps too, of course. This was very useful > determining whether the speaker crossovers my dad built were working > as intended (actually they weren't, and this instrument helped us > uncover a problem). We also used this to do inductor and capacitor > characterization. There are all sorts of applications this instrument > is good for. > > > Joe Zatarski From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 11 23:21:58 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 21:21:58 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <74e0ca30-7aae-95bd-feac-745e39f4841f@sydex.com> On 08/11/2016 07:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > One of the highest projects I have in the queue is getting one of > John's M4 9914V drives with 18 track MR heads running in my new lab > at CHM. I've always wondered how far someone would go to retrieve data from media that's really off the beaten path. Suppose someone found a box of tapes from an old Honeywell Datamatic mainframe. Huge reels, 3 inches wide with heaven knows how many channels... --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 11 23:44:47 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 21:44:47 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <74e0ca30-7aae-95bd-feac-745e39f4841f@sydex.com> References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> <74e0ca30-7aae-95bd-feac-745e39f4841f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3a52c8c7-6a5f-5ac8-fc29-aa1c65bcb154@bitsavers.org> On 8/11/16 9:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/11/2016 07:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> One of the highest projects I have in the queue is getting one of >> John's M4 9914V drives with 18 track MR heads running in my new lab >> at CHM. > > I've always wondered how far someone would go to retrieve data from > media that's really off the beaten path. actually, that is to recover 7 or 9 track using an ibm 3480 head stack maybe some day, i'll try respooling a Whirlwind tape and see if I can pull any data off it. I did actually turn up info on the Raytheon drive in the CHM archives, and we have at least one with a head to measure track spacing From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 11 23:46:38 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 21:46:38 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <74e0ca30-7aae-95bd-feac-745e39f4841f@sydex.com> References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> <74e0ca30-7aae-95bd-feac-745e39f4841f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0e74fa3d-f061-f03b-8337-71adf7fb0981@bitsavers.org> On 8/11/16 9:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Suppose someone found a box of > tapes from an old Honeywell Datamatic mainframe. http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X660.86 we actually got a full reel a couple years ago, but there aren't any pictures of it yet. it's HEAVY From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Aug 12 00:07:23 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 22:07:23 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging Message-ID: Chuck we have tape.... we also have one of the 30 something track heads at smecc..... I guess ?won would have to build ?the ?motorized ?wingaxas... to pull the tape. ... the electronics can be recreated... ?We figure the head is the hard part..... ha! ?and a empty take up reel! Anyone habe one?Ed www.smecc.org Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Chuck Guzis Date: 8/11/16 21:21 (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Tape imaging On 08/11/2016 07:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > One of the highest projects I have in the queue is getting one of > John's M4 9914V drives with 18 track MR heads running in my new lab > at CHM. I've always wondered how far someone would go to retrieve data from media that's really off the beaten path.? Suppose someone found a box of tapes from an old Honeywell Datamatic mainframe.? Huge reels, 3 inches wide with heaven knows how many channels... --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Aug 12 00:50:44 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 22:50:44 -0700 Subject: Tape Imaging In-Reply-To: <6a5e8ec8-2260-4d72-a497-8744517792bc@sydex.com> References: <6a5e8ec8-2260-4d72-a497-8744517792bc@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6f8a3f1d-b89b-ad85-77a3-4bb7c6b98b34@jwsss.com> On 8/11/2016 6:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/11/2016 02:08 PM, Stan Sieler wrote: > > > I've had a couple of tapes with "fooler" double file marks. The first > was a zero-length file--had I thought to look at the block count > (000000) in the HDR label, it would have been obvious. > > The second was a bit more involved--the tape started off in 6250 GCR > mode and read to EOF just fine. However, I picked up perhaps half a MB > of data, which seemed too little for a 10" reel. Rewind, manually set > the density to 1600 and read, letting the drive skip over what was now > interpreted as erased tape. What followed was a complete half-reel of > 1600 data that would have been lost. My guess is that someone had an > "oh sh*t" moment, reset the density manually and finished the tape off > in the lower density as intended. That sounds like someone just set a Cipher 990 or such to 6240 GCR and overwrote it. The 1600bpi was residue which was previous tape contents? Sometimes the stars align and there are not any tape errors when you do what you do. Only way to know is whether there is a PE burst at the start of the 1600bpi data, which would be there if they had done what you suggest. And PE bursts should only appear @ the BOT I think as you say with streamers. I don't know what the rack Pertec PE formatters did. Those were the 4" high boxes with a couple of boards with the original twin 50 pin input IDC connectors on the back, and cabling out to the tape, which was a Pertec of some sort. I also had a 6" 600' only Pertec formatted, with a builtin PE formatter. I don't know if either wrote the PE Burst. That was mainly useful on the Cipher 1600 / 3200 drives to figure out the density on read. (I think). thanks Jim > I don't know if this could be > recovered with most SCSI streamers, which don't allow density changes > except at BOT. > > War stories...I love 'em. > > --Chuck > > > > > > > > > > >> (Yes, that begs the question...if you're archiving a tar tape ... do >> you *want* the data past the first EOF? (Which could be part of a >> prior (and longer) tar, or something else.)) (And then there are the >> people who put tar after tar after tar on the same tape :) >> >> Stan >> > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 12 00:58:49 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 22:58:49 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 08/11/2016 10:07 PM, couryhouse wrote: > > > Chuck we have tape.... we also have one of the 30 something track > heads at smecc..... I guess won would have to build the motorized > wingaxas... to pull the tape. ... the electronics can be recreated... > We figure the head is the hard part..... ha! and a empty take up > reel! Anyone habe one?Ed www.smecc.org 31 tracks if I read the manual right. The tape itself is a mylar sandwich, so it should be plenty durable. Reel motors should be no great deal--maybe you could scavenge them from an old Ampex Quadruplex VTR... --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 01:26:09 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 07:26:09 +0100 Subject: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] In-Reply-To: References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> <6ed08677-bbfd-7318-0d12-5285f8aa2c0b@jwsss.com> <201608110057.UAA28013@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <157901d1f462$6ad59690$4080c3b0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 11 August 2016 16:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] > > On Thu, 11 Aug 2016, geneb wrote: > > I think it would be more effective to stuff the spammer into a Brazen > > Bull and then force his children/family members to light the fire. > > Televise it across all media outlets. Spam should slow to a tiny, > > tiny, trickle after one or two of these little events... > Firstly, there are many types of unwanted e-mail, and using the term SPAM to cover them all is a dis-service. A lot of reported SPAM simply comes from lists folks have signed up to, and who can't be bothered to un-sign themselves off the list. The e-mail in question was not one of those, it was almost certainly sent by a criminal attempting to steal and re-sell some ones credentials. I am fairly certain the e-mail originated from 102.47.65.89. Sticking that into an Internet Search engine reports... IP General Information IP Address: 103.47.65.89 Hostname: 103.47.65.89 ISP: Zapbytes Technologies Pvt. Geolocation Information Continent: Asia (AS) Country: India (IN) IN City: Delhi Latitude: 28.6667 (28?40'0.12" N), Longitude: 77.2167 (77?13'0.12" N) > Spam should reduce when word gets around that spammers are being > tortured to death. I doubt it, some one will invent a religion that says tortured spammers get to heaven first...... > > Decriminalize spammercide. > > > Spread the word - "spammers are already being murdered." > > Dave G4UGM From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Aug 12 01:27:52 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 08:27:52 +0200 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <012701d1eefd$afb66d80$0f234880$@gmail.com> <009601d1ef3b$c97c23c0$5c746b40$@bettercomputing.net> <20160805185813.GN2132@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20160812062751.GF3629@Update.UU.SE> Very interresting read, thank you Ethan. /P On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +0000), tony duell wrote: > >> > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? > > > > No. ;-) > > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago. I get > why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my > experiences as "typical". > > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic > light". I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff. *Mostly*, if you plug everything in > and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop > adding null-modem adapters. Past that, you have to know if either end > requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking. If you defeat it, you might > run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to > establish basic comms and pass a few characters. To that end, you do > have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start > is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits. I've run into multiple > situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer. With enough > experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on an often > recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out what the > speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a serial analyzer > or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" until cleartext comes > through. I also try the speeds in "most popular order", 9600, 1200, > 300, 2400, 4800, 19200, 600... in the hopes of saving time. Every > once in a while, you run into some oddball stuff, like 9600/150, etc., > split speeds from the days of timesharing setups where the CPU wanted > to get data to the users as fast as possible but wanted to minimize > input interrupts and more closely match the input flow to (slow) human > typing speeds. This wasn't common with microcomputers, but I've seen > it with PDP-11 and PDP-8 setups and isn't something to look for first, > but it does exist and highlights how strange things can get if all > you've ever done is plug a high speed modem into a PC for dial-up > internet. > > One important tip about USB serial dongles (and some laptops DE9 > serial ports) - I've had problems with some of them and 1970s gear > because the EIA/RS-232C (1969) level specification is +5V to +15V for > space (0) and -15V to -5V for mark (1) (with +/-3V min sensitivity) > and a lot of old gear is expecting +/-12V and not happy with > lower-voltage lines and thin wires that don't help signal losses. One > case in particular was a 1977-era Bridgeport Series II CNC mill with a > LSI-11/03 CPU and a lot of custom Bridgeport boards. Everyone else > who tried to talk to the Bridgeport before me had zero success. I > checked all the things on the list and finally pulled out the laptop > and set up a Dell desktop which worked the first time. When > connecting to pre-1982 gear, I'd definitely try it from a desktop if a > laptop is just not working. Checking the lines with an oscilloscope > could also help verify this what's giving the grief (I did not have > one handy when we were trying to get that CNC mill working). > > In terms of serial analyzers, there are several types out there, and > the ones that I've had the most time on are the HP 4951/4952 series. > There are different models with different features, but if you are > going to shop for one, ensure it comes with the "keyboard lid" because > that's where the line drivers and serial connectors are. The large > connector on the back goes to a "pod" that happens to snap on the > front of the unit when the keyboard is flipped up. It's much easier > to find the base units than loose pods, IME. Check which pod. I've > seen many with DB25s, which is probably what you want, but I've also > seen DC-37 connectors, and non-EIA (RS-232) level shifters. The good > news is that among these different models, the pods should be > interchangable, so if you end up picking up 2 units (not unusual) with > different base capabilities (some have DC-150 cassette tape, some have > 3.5" floppy, plus some minor differences) and only one has a DB25 EIA > pod, you can at least migrate it between the units. I find the serial > analyzers invaluable for snooping on the details of what's happening > on the wire, but any analyzers I have seen have a handy "autoconfig" > button to sniff traffic and configure the line for monitoring, so it's > often a quick click to get all the parameters if you don't already > know them. Where they really shine is looking for troubles at the > application layer, debugging Kermit or XMODEM traffic that isn't > working for any obvious reason. The advanced stuff you can do is to > write programs for some analyzers to simulate a host or a client for > software debugging or to reproduce a problem for deeper analysis - > this is far beyond the usual "why can't I get this terminal working > with this vintage machine" but when you need it, you need it. > > In summary, I start by scoping the line with an LED traffic light > (swapping lines or making custom cables where necessary), then move on > the speed and parity settings (and changing the easier-to-change end), > then look deeper when the easy stuff doesn't work. Easy problems take > minutes or less. Hard problems can take a long time to resolve. > > -ethan From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 02:03:58 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 02:03:58 -0500 Subject: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] In-Reply-To: <157901d1f462$6ad59690$4080c3b0$@gmail.com> References: <000064bb20b3$334e65a1$ebf66be3$@twinax.org> <6ed08677-bbfd-7318-0d12-5285f8aa2c0b@jwsss.com> <201608110057.UAA28013@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <157901d1f462$6ad59690$4080c3b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Spam should reduce when word gets around that spammers are being > tortured to death. I doubt it, some one will invent a religion that says tortured spammers get to heaven first...... Yeah, wow.. not to put too fine a point on it, HA! On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 1:26 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred > Cisin > > Sent: 11 August 2016 16:38 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?] > > > > On Thu, 11 Aug 2016, geneb wrote: > > > I think it would be more effective to stuff the spammer into a Brazen > > > Bull and then force his children/family members to light the fire. > > > Televise it across all media outlets. Spam should slow to a tiny, > > > tiny, trickle after one or two of these little events... > > > > Firstly, there are many types of unwanted e-mail, and using the term SPAM > to > cover them all is a dis-service. > A lot of reported SPAM simply comes from lists folks have signed up to, and > who can't be bothered to un-sign themselves off the list. > > The e-mail in question was not one of those, it was almost certainly sent > by > a criminal attempting to steal and re-sell some ones credentials. > > I am fairly certain the e-mail originated from 102.47.65.89. Sticking that > into an Internet Search engine reports... > > IP General Information > > IP Address: 103.47.65.89 > Hostname: 103.47.65.89 > ISP: Zapbytes Technologies Pvt. > > Geolocation Information > > Continent: Asia (AS) > Country: India (IN) IN > City: Delhi > Latitude: 28.6667 (28?40'0.12" N), Longitude: 77.2167 (77?13'0.12" N) > > > > Spam should reduce when word gets around that spammers are being > > tortured to death. > > I doubt it, some one will invent a religion that says tortured spammers get > to heaven first...... > > > > > Decriminalize spammercide. > > > > > > Spread the word - "spammers are already being murdered." > > > > > Dave > G4UGM > > > From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 12 02:29:39 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 01:29:39 -0600 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 2016-08-11 20:36, Al Kossow wrote: > One of the highest projects I have in the queue is getting one of John's > M4 9914V drives with 18 track MR heads running in my new lab at CHM. What's the interface on the 18 track head? From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Aug 12 03:11:50 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 04:11:50 -0400 Subject: Tape imaging Message-ID: <2327c.5a1946e9.44dedec6@aol.com> yep think 31 is right. have RCA tr-5 quad unit looking for more quad recorders always can swap some computer stuff! Anyway the fellow I get the tr-5 from... he alsoscrapped a tr-4 and I have bies of parts when I can access the parts will check for motors! ed# In a message dated 8/11/2016 10:58:56 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, cclist at sydex.com writes: On 08/11/2016 10:07 PM, couryhouse wrote: > > > Chuck we have tape.... we also have one of the 30 something track > heads at smecc..... I guess won would have to build the motorized > wingaxas... to pull the tape. ... the electronics can be recreated... > We figure the head is the hard part..... ha! and a empty take up > reel! Anyone habe one?Ed www.smecc.org 31 tracks if I read the manual right. The tape itself is a mylar sandwich, so it should be plenty durable. Reel motors should be no great deal--maybe you could scavenge them from an old Ampex Quadruplex VTR... --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 03:30:43 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 01:30:43 -0700 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: I got the HP 9885 single sided disk unit that was at Weird Stuff, thanks for the heads up! Now I just need a parallel interface for the 9825, a cable, the right 8" diskettes, and get my HP-IB 9895 to work... That's a lot of stars to align but that should be fun to try. Marc > On Jul 24, 2016, at 3:30 AM, David Collins wrote: > > Guys, I've looked for a 98228A ROM in the HP Computer Museum but haven't > been able to find one - but it looks like we've had one at some stage > judging by the photo. > > If I come across it I'll come back to you. > > David Collins > Curator > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of CuriousMarc > Sent: Saturday, 23 July 2016 5:40 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 > > Thanks, I didn't know, I grabbed the image. That offers a path if I can ever > get an 9885 and single sides 8" discs... > Marc > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul >> Berger On the hpmuseum.net page for the 98217A ROM here is an image of >> what is reputed to be an initialized diskette for use with 9825 and >> 98217A http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=166. When I get my >> 9825T I will look into 9885 emulation, I don't think it will be too > difficult but >> you may still need a GPIO unless I build the whole thing onto a >> plug-in card I don't think the GPIO would be too difficult to clone. >> But ideally I would still like to get access to a 98228A ROM to dump >> and > clone >> it, even though it is bank switched it should still be possible. >> >> Paul. > > From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 14:48:21 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 21:48:21 +0200 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91678b73-7ec1-9d2b-6cab-9f690459df1e@gmail.com> Hello Andreas, nice to see you here from time to time. I too have two TSZ07, but both had problems with the PSU after some time of good working condition. The problem was always related, as indirect cause, to bad electrolytic capacitors, however the effect was always bad. The first one in the end became somehow over-stressed and had a transistor burned to short circuit; replaced the transistor, and all the capacitors, it was ok. After the repair operation, one of the motors lost the magnet inside, so I had to dismount it, open it carefully, put the magnet in place with wood parts to keep it in the right position, reglue the magnet with acrylic glue, remount. Worked! The second one began suddenly to oscillate badly, so on the 5V output there were peaks from 0V to 15-20V... It remained in the bad state for just 3-5 seconds, then I turned on 220V. Too bad, a microprocessor on the control board was fried. As I didn't find any schematic at the time (and not one so far), it took me a life with the bare oscilloscope to understand which component was defective, ordered it form the US, desoldered with hot air, resoldered, et voila, it became to life again... Worked, but I paid more for the repair / components than what I paid for the drive... I know also Holm has such a drive, again problems with the PSU... overheating. So be warned: replace all the relevant capacitors before operate the drive, to avoid problems. If you want and have some patience, I could take some pictures to show you what parts are delicate and what not. The PSU inside has two boards, one is high-voltage stage, the other has the main transformer and the low-voltage stage. It produces IIRC -12V, +5V (standby), +5V (high current), +12V, +37V. To test the PSU alone, you need to connect a resistor between two pins of a connector (I should double-check in case you want to know), otherwise it will not power-up, only standby voltage will be present, but it's not supplied by the switching high-power circuit. I recommend a test of one hour or more with load resistors (or lamps) and voltage monitoring to test the effective operation. Let me know if you need some help. (out of band data): do you have some information about trips to Munchen or somewhere in Bayern or Osterreich? Didn't heard of you anymore lately... We still have the drive swap to organize! Please let me know. Thanks Andrea From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 12 03:49:13 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:49:13 +0100 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 Message-ID: <03b5c893-6b6f-258a-572a-440884460604@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Well my panels made to VCF. I have had some feedback and I expect more. Currently I have stock of PDP-8/e (Types A and B) , PDP-8/f and PDP-8/m. PDP-8/i should be out of manufacturing by now. Next up is PDP-8/L. -++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Order the above now ++++++++++++++++++ Due to our house remodeling and holidays at the silk screen studio it was quiet up until this week.. However now things have started up again. I'm about to revisit the PDP-8 bezel project. The prototype had a few issues but nothing major. I should have a painted example shortly. Once the PDP-8/L batch are safely in the stock room it will be time to start on PDP-11 panels. +++++++++++++++++++++++ Please register interest in bezels and PDP-11 panels ++++++++++++++++ Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 04:09:36 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 04:09:36 -0500 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <03b5c893-6b6f-258a-572a-440884460604@btinternet.com> Message-ID: 8i I want one for my panel rebuild project On Aug 12, 2016 3:49 AM, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: Hi Guys Well my panels made to VCF. I have had some feedback and I expect more. Currently I have stock of PDP-8/e (Types A and B) , PDP-8/f and PDP-8/m. PDP-8/i should be out of manufacturing by now. Next up is PDP-8/L. -++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Order the above now ++++++++++++++++++ Due to our house remodeling and holidays at the silk screen studio it was quiet up until this week.. However now things have started up again. I'm about to revisit the PDP-8 bezel project. The prototype had a few issues but nothing major. I should have a painted example shortly. Once the PDP-8/L batch are safely in the stock room it will be time to start on PDP-11 panels. +++++++++++++++++++++++ Please register interest in bezels and PDP-11 panels ++++++++++++++++ Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From cliendo at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 07:48:53 2016 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 08:48:53 -0400 Subject: HP to acquire SGI Message-ID: This is for all my SGI guys out there. http://insidehpc.com/2016/08/hewlett-packard-enterprise-to-acquire-sgi-to-extend-leadership-in-high-growth-big-data-analytics-and-high-performance-computing/ From mazzinia at tin.it Fri Aug 12 08:00:49 2016 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 15:00:49 +0200 Subject: R: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> It was not enough to have mishandled vms, and killed palm. Now they want to destroy also what's left of SGI ? Better I don't say what I'm really thinking... -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Christian Liendo Inviato: venerd? 12 agosto 2016 14:49 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: HP to acquire SGI This is for all my SGI guys out there. http://insidehpc.com/2016/08/hewlett-packard-enterprise-to-acquire-sgi-to-extend-leadership-in-high-growth-big-data-analytics-and-high-performance-computing/ From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 08:17:56 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:17:56 -0400 Subject: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> Message-ID: >>Now they want to destroy also what's left of SGI ? SGI was already destroyed decades ago. With more vision, they could have transitioned the business into becoming an Nvidia instead of a faceless rack server company. Especially with the world looking into VR, the original SGI could legitimately say "Hey, we've already got decades of experience in this!!" Its a shame, really. Todd Killingsworth On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > It was not enough to have mishandled vms, and killed palm. Now they want > to destroy also what's left of SGI ? > Better I don't say what I'm really thinking... > > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Christian > Liendo > Inviato: venerd? 12 agosto 2016 14:49 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Oggetto: HP to acquire SGI > > This is for all my SGI guys out there. > > > http://insidehpc.com/2016/08/hewlett-packard-enterprise-to- > acquire-sgi-to-extend-leadership-in-high-growth-big- > data-analytics-and-high-performance-computing/ > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Aug 12 08:28:33 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:28:33 -0400 Subject: memory map for RT-11 v 5 In-Reply-To: References: <5794BB68.7030603@compsys.to> <84EBEE6A-FFF7-454D-80A2-2DBF6407E4C8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <57ADCF01.9010906@compsys.to> >On Sunday, July 24th, 2016 at 22:17:24 -0700, Don North wrote: > >On 7/24/2016 2:37 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >>> >On Jul 24, 2016, at 11:06 AM, william degnan >>> wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>>> Attempts to boot from RT11SJ.SYS under V04.00 of RT-11 with 24K >>>> bytes of memory were successful. Attempts to boot with 16K bytes of >>>> memory were also successful. An RK05 was used as the disk drive. The >>>> error message "Insufficient memory" is displayed, but some useful work >>>> might be done with just 16K bytes of memory. However, you did not >>>> ask if useful work being done was one of the criteria? >>> >> FWIW, I used to run RT11SJ on an 11/20 with 8 kW (16 kB) of memory >> and RC11 system disk, in college. That fit with no trouble, enough >> room to run RT BASIC and a reasonably application program. >> >> paul > > And it still works today: > > PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 4065f47f > sim> set cpu 11/05 16k > sim> sho cpu > CPU 11/05, idle disabled, autoconfiguration enabled > 16KB > sim> att rk0 rt11.dsk > sim> boot rk0 > > RT-11SJ V02C-02 > > . > .R PIP > */L > > DTMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75 > DTMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75 > DP .SYS 2 27-NOV-75 > RK .SYS 2 27-NOV-75 > RF .SYS 2 27-NOV-75 > TT .SYS 2 27-NOV-75 > LP .SYS 2 27-NOV-75 > BA .SYS 7 27-NOV-75 > SYSMAC.SML 18 27-NOV-75 > SYSMAC.8K 25 27-NOV-75 > BATCH .SAV 25 27-NOV-75 > EDIT .SAV 19 27-NOV-75 > MACRO .SAV 31 27-NOV-75 > ASEMBL.SAV 21 27-NOV-75 > EXPAND.SAV 12 27-NOV-75 > CREF .SAV 5 27-NOV-75 > LINK .SAV 25 27-NOV-75 > PIP .SAV 14 27-NOV-75 > PATCH .SAV 5 27-NOV-75 > ODT .OBJ 9 27-NOV-75 > VTHDLR.OBJ 8 27-NOV-75 > DEMOFG.MAC 5 27-NOV-75 > DEMOBG.MAC 4 27-NOV-75 > KB .MAC 33 27-NOV-75 > LIBR .SAV 15 27-NOV-75 > MONITR.SYS 46 27-NOV-75 > RKMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75 > RFMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75 > RFMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75 > DPMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75 > DPMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75 > DXMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75 > DXMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75 > DT .SYS 2 27-NOV-75 > DX .SYS 2 27-NOV-75 > CR .SYS 3 27-NOV-75 > MT .SYS 6 27-NOV-75 > MM .SYS 6 27-NOV-75 > PR .SYS 2 27-NOV-75 > PP .SYS 2 27-NOV-75 > CT .SYS 5 27-NOV-75 > DS .SYS 2 27-NOV-75 > FILEX .SAV 11 27-NOV-75 > SRCCOM.SAV 11 27-NOV-75 > DUMP .SAV 5 27-NOV-75 > PATCHO.SAV 33 27-NOV-75 > VTMAC .MAC 7 27-NOV-75 > SYSF4 .OBJ 33 27-NOV-75 > BASIC .SAV 36 > BAS8K .SAV 34 > DEMO .BAS 3 > 51 FILES, 1014 BLOCKS > 3760 FREE BLOCKS > * > . > .R BAS8K > > BASIC V01B-02 > * > > READY > > OLD > OLD FILE NAME--DEMO > > READY > > LIST > > DEMO BASIC V01B-02 > > 10 REM BASIC PROGRAM TO GENERATE N TERMS OF A FIBONACCI SERIES, > 20 REM THE FIRST TWO TERMS OF WHICH ARE SPECIFIED BY THE USER. > 30 REM > 40 REM PRINT IDENTIFYING MESSAGE > 50 PRINT "PROGRAM TO GENERATE A FIBONACCI SERIES" > 60 REM > 70 REM GET THE LENGTH AND FIRST TWO TERMS OF THE SERIES > 80 PRINT "HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED"; > 90 INPUT L > 100 IF L<>0 THEN 130 > 110 REM IF HE REQUESTS 0 TERMS,TERMINATE EXECUTION > 120 STOP > 130 PRINT "WHAT IS THE FIRST TERM"; > 140 INPUT T1 > 150 PRINT "WHAT IS THE SECOND TERM"; > 160 INPUT T2 > 170 REM MAKE SURE L IS NOT NEGATIVE OR TOO LARGE > 180 IF L<3 THEN 200 > 190 IF L<50 THEN 220 > 200 PRINT L;"TERMS DOES NOT REALLY MAKE SENSE." > 210 GO TO 80 > 220 REM PRINT THE FIRST TWO TERMS OF THE SERIES > 230 PRINT "THE REQUESTED SERIES IS" > 240 PRINT T1 > 250 PRINT T2 > 260 L=L-2 > 270 REM CALCULATE NEXT TERM AND PRINT IT > 280 N=T1+T2 > 290 T1=T2 > 300 T2=N > 310 PRINT N > 320 REM DETERMINE IF SERIES IS FINISHED. IF SO,DO NEXT ONE. > 330 L=L-1 > 340 IF L<=0 THEN 80 > 350 GO TO 280 > 360 END > > READY > > RUN > > DEMO BASIC V01B-02 > > PROGRAM TO GENERATE A FIBONACCI SERIES > HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED?4 > WHAT IS THE FIRST TERM?12 > WHAT IS THE SECOND TERM?5 > THE REQUESTED SERIES IS > 12 > 5 > 17 > 22 > HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED?0 > > STOP AT LINE 120 > > READY V02C-02 is just one of the versions (out of about 23 versions) that are available on the CD image at classiccmp which is available for download. The V02C-02 version of RT-11 on the CD has 58 files with 1212 blocks, although the date on all of the files is November 20th, 1975 or a week earlier. It would be interesting to compare all of the common files to see if they are identical. I suspect that they probably are. What I am curious about are the two files: ASEMBL.SAV EXPAND.SAV Did these two files do anything special? For historical purposes, it would also be interesting to also preserve the files: BASIC.SAV BAS8K.SAV DEMO.BAS that you have along with the F4.SAV (or FORTRA.SAV) which DEC released in 1975 - probably V2 of FORTRAN IV. The early versions of FORTRAN IV are available elsewhere for download Jerome Fine From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 12 08:59:10 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:59:10 -0400 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <2848F50B-BDF2-4396-8BDB-D18B6C9A0D24@comcast.net> > On Aug 11, 2016, at 10:27 PM, aswood at t-online.de wrote: > > I do have two original CDC 603 tape drives with controller, but to be honest it would be quite a challenge to hook them to a modern system. 603? My manuals don't go back that far. What kind of drive is that, and what does the controller connect to? If it's a 6000 series channel interface, then that's very easy to deal with. Channel to PCI-e interfaces have been built (out of FPGAs) and hooked up to DtCyber. If it's some other type of channel, the same sort of answer would apply; none of those old channels are all that complex. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 12 09:09:45 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 10:09:45 -0400 Subject: memory map for RT-11 v 5 In-Reply-To: <57ADCF01.9010906@compsys.to> References: <5794BB68.7030603@compsys.to> <84EBEE6A-FFF7-454D-80A2-2DBF6407E4C8@comcast.net> <57ADCF01.9010906@compsys.to> Message-ID: <02E8196A-FB58-4F65-BEAC-A460EA3C8EFC@comcast.net> > On Aug 12, 2016, at 9:28 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > ... > > V02C-02 is just one of the versions (out of about 23 versions) that are > available on the CD image at classiccmp which is available for download. > ... > What I am curious about are the two files: > ASEMBL.SAV > EXPAND.SAV > Did these two files do anything special? If you have enough memory (16 kW or more, I think) then you can run MACRO, the PDP11 macro assembler. If all you have is 8 kW, that won't work. Instead, you use EXPAND on your MACRO-11 source code to expand the macros, and ASEMBL on the resulting plain assembly language file. Think of it like classic C compilers where you first run cpp to expand the preprocessor macros and then cc to compile the resulting foo.i file. ASEMBL is somewhat like the earlier PAL11 no-macro assembler for the PDP11 paper tape system and early (V4) DOS. paul From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Fri Aug 12 09:32:56 2016 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:32:56 -0500 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment Message-ID: >The y have used Fairchild for their source. > >If so, that explains the high rate of failure. > >Years ago when at Intel, we disqualified Fairchild > >as a source for parts because of the poor testing > >and high failure rates. > >Dwight I seem to remember the 7474 that failed was actually a TI part, but I'm not entirely sure now. Something I forgot to note was that this instrument (the 4261A) was actually manufactured for HP by Yokogawa, I'm not too sure where the HP part ends and the Yokogawa begins, maybe it was designed by HP and built by Yokogawa, or maybe the whole thing was a contracted design for HP by Yokogawa. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 12 09:33:14 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 07:33:14 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: I've a question. ?I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800.. is there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still connected to the CT? ?Or do I have to load something in via PC first and then swap cables? Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Pontus Pihlgren Date: 2016-08-11 11:27 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 Very interresting read, thank you Ethan. /P On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +0000), tony duell wrote: > >> > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? > > > > No.? ;-) > > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago.? I get > why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my > experiences as "typical". > > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic > light".? I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff.? *Mostly*, if you plug everything in > and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop > adding null-modem adapters.? Past that, you have to know if either end > requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking.? If you defeat it, you might > run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to > establish basic comms and pass a few characters.? To that end, you do > have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start > is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits.? I've run into multiple > situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer.? With enough > experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on an often > recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out what the > speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a serial analyzer > or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" until cleartext comes > through.? I also try the speeds in "most popular order", 9600, 1200, > 300, 2400, 4800, 19200, 600... in the hopes of saving time.? Every > once in a while, you run into some oddball stuff, like 9600/150, etc., > split speeds from the days of timesharing setups where the CPU wanted > to get data to the users as fast as possible but wanted to minimize > input interrupts and more closely match the input flow to (slow) human > typing speeds.? This wasn't common with microcomputers, but I've seen > it with PDP-11 and PDP-8 setups and isn't something to look for first, > but it does exist and highlights how strange things can get if all > you've ever done is plug a high speed modem into a PC for dial-up > internet. > > One important tip about USB serial dongles (and some laptops DE9 > serial ports) - I've had problems with some of them and 1970s gear > because the EIA/RS-232C (1969) level specification is +5V to +15V for > space (0) and -15V to -5V for mark (1) (with +/-3V min sensitivity) > and a lot of old gear is expecting +/-12V and not happy with > lower-voltage lines and thin wires that don't help signal losses.? One > case in particular was a 1977-era Bridgeport Series II CNC mill with a > LSI-11/03 CPU and a lot of custom Bridgeport boards.? Everyone else > who tried to talk to the Bridgeport before me had zero success.? I > checked all the things on the list and finally pulled out the laptop > and set up a Dell desktop which worked the first time.? When > connecting to pre-1982 gear, I'd definitely try it from a desktop if a > laptop is just not working.? Checking the lines with an oscilloscope > could also help verify this what's giving the grief (I did not have > one handy when we were trying to get that CNC mill working). > > In terms of serial analyzers, there are several types out there, and > the ones that I've had the most time on are the HP 4951/4952 series. > There are different models with different features, but if you are > going to shop for one, ensure it comes with the "keyboard lid" because > that's where the line drivers and serial connectors are.? The large > connector on the back goes to a "pod" that happens to snap on the > front of the unit when the keyboard is flipped up.? It's much easier > to find the base units than loose pods, IME.? Check which pod.? I've > seen many with DB25s, which is probably what you want, but I've also > seen DC-37 connectors, and non-EIA (RS-232) level shifters.? The good > news is that among these different models, the pods should be > interchangable, so if you end up picking up 2 units (not unusual) with > different base capabilities (some have DC-150 cassette tape, some have > 3.5" floppy, plus some minor differences) and only one has a DB25 EIA > pod, you can at least migrate it between the units.? I find the serial > analyzers invaluable for snooping on the details of what's happening > on the wire, but any analyzers I have seen have a handy "autoconfig" > button to sniff traffic and configure the line for monitoring, so it's > often a quick click to get all the parameters if you don't already > know them.? Where they really shine is looking for troubles at the > application layer, debugging Kermit or XMODEM traffic that isn't > working for any obvious reason.? The advanced stuff you can do is to > write programs for some analyzers to simulate a host or a client for > software debugging or to reproduce a problem for deeper analysis - > this is far beyond the usual "why can't I get this terminal working > with this vintage machine" but when you need it, you need it. > > In summary, I start by scoping the line with an LED traffic light > (swapping lines or making custom cables where necessary), then move on > the speed and parity settings (and changing the easier-to-change end), > then look deeper when the easy stuff doesn't work.? Easy problems take > minutes or less.? Hard problems can take a long time to resolve. > > -ethan From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 10:15:55 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 12:15:55 -0300 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <57ADE82B.6040202@gmail.com> The cable will come with the GPIO, the one you want is the 98032A option 085, but if you cannot find one of them any 98032A could be reconfigured to support a 9885. Diskettes are going to be a bigger issue, as per hpmuseum.net you will need a 9895 to be able to transfer their image to a physical diskette. Paul. On 2016-08-12 5:30 AM, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: > I got the HP 9885 single sided disk unit that was at Weird Stuff, thanks for the heads up! Now I just need a parallel interface for the 9825, a cable, the right 8" diskettes, and get my HP-IB 9895 to work... That's a lot of stars to align but that should be fun to try. > Marc > >> On Jul 24, 2016, at 3:30 AM, David Collins wrote: >> >> Guys, I've looked for a 98228A ROM in the HP Computer Museum but haven't >> been able to find one - but it looks like we've had one at some stage >> judging by the photo. >> >> If I come across it I'll come back to you. >> >> David Collins >> Curator >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of CuriousMarc >> Sent: Saturday, 23 July 2016 5:40 PM >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> >> Subject: RE: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 >> >> Thanks, I didn't know, I grabbed the image. That offers a path if I can ever >> get an 9885 and single sides 8" discs... >> Marc >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul >>> Berger On the hpmuseum.net page for the 98217A ROM here is an image of >>> what is reputed to be an initialized diskette for use with 9825 and >>> 98217A http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=166. When I get my >>> 9825T I will look into 9885 emulation, I don't think it will be too >> difficult but >>> you may still need a GPIO unless I build the whole thing onto a >>> plug-in card I don't think the GPIO would be too difficult to clone. >>> But ideally I would still like to get access to a 98228A ROM to dump >>> and >> clone >>> it, even though it is bank switched it should still be possible. >>> >>> Paul. >> From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 12 10:15:41 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 08:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: R: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > It was not enough to have mishandled vms, and killed palm. Now they want > to destroy also what's left of SGI ? > Better I don't say what I'm really thinking... "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for men of good conscience to remain silent." Apollo, DEC, Compaq, Ericsson, Palm, . . . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Hewlett-Packard If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 12 10:19:42 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 08:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Something I forgot to note was that this instrument (the 4261A) was > actually manufactured for HP by Yokogawa, I'm not too sure where the > HP part ends and the Yokogawa begins, maybe it was designed by HP and > built by Yokogawa, or maybe the whole thing was a contracted design > for HP by Yokogawa. Yokogawa is not on the list of HP acquisitions. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 12 10:28:15 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 11:28:15 -0400 Subject: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> Message-ID: > On Aug 12, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: >> It was not enough to have mishandled vms, and killed palm. Now they want to destroy also what's left of SGI ? >> Better I don't say what I'm really thinking... > > "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for men of good conscience to remain silent." > > > Apollo, DEC, Compaq, Ericsson, Palm, . . . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Hewlett-Packard > > > If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers? No, but it might put an end to the resulting company. Note that HP didn't acquire DEC, or Palm; both had been absorbed by other companies well before HP swooped in to grab those. For example, I don't think anything was left of Palm long before HP bought up the remnants of 3Com. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 12 10:40:07 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 08:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> Message-ID: >> If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers? On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > No, but it might put an end to the resulting company. Would that stop it from pushing Windoze10 "upgrade"? > Note that HP didn't acquire DEC, or Palm; both had been absorbed by > other companies well before HP swooped in to grab those. For example, I > don't think anything was left of Palm long before HP bought up the > remnants of 3Com. It's easier to buy up the wreckage afterwards. If Adam Osborne had listened to my suggestion and bought the residue of Visicalc, then Lotus could not have laid a hand on him. (the real reason why Novell bought Digital Research) I remember when HP was innovative, and made great test equipment. In those days, even Microsoft made good stuff. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 12 10:43:48 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 11:43:48 -0400 Subject: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> Message-ID: <2C83FECE-0300-4D04-8E26-28A38FB2CE8A@comcast.net> > On Aug 12, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > ... > I remember when HP was innovative, and made great test equipment. They still do, but that part hasn't been called HP for a long time. I figured when HP split into a test equipment company and an ink company, the outcome was obvious. I think the ink company is still doing reasonably well (for a commodity business); the rest is not so happy. paul From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Fri Aug 12 11:20:42 2016 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 11:20:42 -0500 Subject: the value of old test and repair equipment Message-ID: >> Something I forgot to note was that this instrument (the 4261A) was >> actually manufactured for HP by Yokogawa, I'm not too sure where the >> HP part ends and the Yokogawa begins, maybe it was designed by HP and >> built by Yokogawa, or maybe the whole thing was a contracted design >> for HP by Yokogawa. > >Yokogawa is not on the list of HP acquisitions. Well, hardly an acquisition if they (partially) owned it from the start. http://www.hpmuseum.net/divisions.php?did=39 YEW is still around today, my dad has purchased scopes for the lab at work from them. YHP is separate from YEW, I guess. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 12 11:27:46 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:27:46 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <9f5f0d31-3f15-391d-4153-42dae9010f61@bitsavers.org> physical is a .1 grid of square pins coming off of a flex cable to the head stack. electrical is you supply a bias current and directly read magnetic flux with an opamp I traced all of that out the last time I made a run at this windmill. John used an FPGA development board with an 18 channel A/D, which also controlled modified firmware on the motor driver and digitizes the tach pulse to get actual tape speed. Unfortunately, he never sent me the FPGA code, so I have to come up with my own digitizer and figure out how to drive the transport. Fortunately, it's a 9914V (vertical mount), so it isn't auto-loading. I did get a tape to move to loadpoint from the front panel, so the mods might not be too bad. He did send me a disassembly of the microcontroller code with the patches he made. Reading this presentation, I think he switched to 3490 36 track heads at some point. http://storageconference.us/2008/presentations/3.Wednesday/5.Bordynuik.pdf MANY years ago, I bought a dozen 3480s in Chicago and stripped them for the heads at my parent's farm in Wisconsin, so I could try grafting one onto another transport if I had to. I've been unsuccessfully trying for years to get the schematics for a 9914 or 9914V (they aren't inlcuded in the service manual). On 8/12/16 12:29 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2016-08-11 20:36, Al Kossow wrote: >> One of the highest projects I have in the queue is getting one of John's >> M4 9914V drives with 18 track MR heads running in my new lab at CHM. > > What's the interface on the 18 track head? > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 12 11:33:37 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:33:37 -0700 Subject: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> Message-ID: On 08/12/2016 06:17 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > SGI was already destroyed decades ago. With more vision, they could > have transitioned the business into becoming an Nvidia instead of a > faceless rack server company. But that's really what SGI is/was today--the former Rackable Systems who inherited the name after purchasing the Chapter 11 remains of SGI back in 2009, except for some tidbits held by a mystery group called "Graphics Properties Holdings, Inc.", which is probably the name of some file in a lawyer's office in New Rochelle. GPH is mostly known for using old SGI patents to go after the likes of Samsung, Google and Amazon. In the 1990s, SGI always seemed to me to be more of a hedge fund operations, acquiring and then relinquishing MIPS and Cray, picking up Intergraph and Wavefront. I suspect that releasing MIPS and Cray via IPOs was a way to raise capital. Whatever, the original company and mindset is long gone. No use crying over spilt milk. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 12 11:54:45 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: R: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > > If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers? > No, but it might create a Black Hole of Fail that would evour the planet. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 11:56:21 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:56:21 -0700 Subject: For trade: beautiful Data General Nova 820 w/ Diablo Drive & controller Message-ID: I picked this early DG machine up and although it's awesome and complete, I just don't think I'll get to restoring it. I'd like to trade for anything Symbolics, or potentially other very early graphical workstation hardware (PERQ, 68K SGI, etc.) Located in Seattle, but I am no stranger to freight. This is an early DG jumbo chassis with everything you need, tons of core, and the removable pack drive. Cheers, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 12 11:57:21 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: R: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> >> If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers? >> > No, but it might create a Black Hole of Fail that would evour the planet. *sigh* s/evour/devour :wq g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 12:02:51 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 13:02:51 -0400 Subject: For trade: beautiful Data General Nova 820 w/ Diablo Drive & controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am interested in the data general nova 820. I have a pdp 11, i have been looking to get into the data general machines for a while now. I have many sgi machines around here. Sgi crimson, tezro, many octanes, octane 2's , indigo, indy indigo, etc. tons of related software for the sgi machines too. mostly around 3d modeling or video work, as to be expected. Would any of those be of interest to you for trade. I would prefer not to part with the crimson. If to be sold for a cash value, what is your asking price? --Devin On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > I picked this early DG machine up and although it's awesome and complete, I > just don't think I'll get to restoring it. > > I'd like to trade for anything Symbolics, or potentially other very early > graphical workstation hardware (PERQ, 68K SGI, etc.) > > Located in Seattle, but I am no stranger to freight. > > This is an early DG jumbo chassis with everything you need, tons of core, > and the removable pack drive. > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 12 12:14:03 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 11:14:03 -0600 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: <9f5f0d31-3f15-391d-4153-42dae9010f61@bitsavers.org> References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> <9f5f0d31-3f15-391d-4153-42dae9010f61@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2016-08-12 10:27, Al Kossow wrote: > physical is a .1 grid of square pins coming off of a flex cable to the head stack. > electrical is you supply a bias current and directly read magnetic flux with an opamp OK, > I traced all of that out the last time I made a run at this windmill. John used an FPGA > development board with an 18 channel A/D, which also controlled modified firmware on the motor driver > and digitizes the tach pulse to get actual tape speed. 18/36 channels? Which sample rate? Resolution? > Unfortunately, he never sent me the FPGA code, so I have to come up with my own digitizer and figure > out how to drive the transport. Fortunately, it's a 9914V (vertical mount), so it isn't auto-loading. > I did get a tape to move to loadpoint from the front panel, so the mods might not be too bad. He did > send me a disassembly of the microcontroller code with the patches he made. > > Reading this presentation, I think he switched to 3490 36 track heads at some point. makes sense, even as you double the amount of data ... > http://storageconference.us/2008/presentations/3.Wednesday/5.Bordynuik.pdf > MANY years ago, I bought a dozen 3480s in Chicago and stripped them for the heads at my parent's > farm in Wisconsin, so I could try grafting one onto another transport if I had to. I've been unsuccessfully > trying for years to get the schematics for a 9914 or 9914V (they aren't inlcuded in the service manual). So, going for the 36 track heads too? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 12 13:11:32 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 11:11:32 -0700 Subject: Tape Imaging In-Reply-To: <6f8a3f1d-b89b-ad85-77a3-4bb7c6b98b34@jwsss.com> References: <6a5e8ec8-2260-4d72-a497-8744517792bc@sydex.com> <6f8a3f1d-b89b-ad85-77a3-4bb7c6b98b34@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <93f0b0dd-34b0-7494-54d5-ed6af0e990a5@sydex.com> On 08/11/2016 10:50 PM, jim stephens wrote: > That sounds like someone just set a Cipher 990 or such to 6240 GCR > and overwrote it. The 1600bpi was residue which was previous tape > contents? No, that's the odd thing--both files (tar) were complete from beginning to end. The first was a smaller version of the second, but otherwise complete. We'll never know how the thing got that way. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 12 13:19:40 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 14:19:40 -0400 Subject: Tape Imaging In-Reply-To: <93f0b0dd-34b0-7494-54d5-ed6af0e990a5@sydex.com> References: <6a5e8ec8-2260-4d72-a497-8744517792bc@sydex.com> <6f8a3f1d-b89b-ad85-77a3-4bb7c6b98b34@jwsss.com> <93f0b0dd-34b0-7494-54d5-ed6af0e990a5@sydex.com> Message-ID: <006CBF50-DE08-4D98-BFBD-8B4CC13472E3@comcast.net> > On Aug 12, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 08/11/2016 10:50 PM, jim stephens wrote: > >> That sounds like someone just set a Cipher 990 or such to 6240 GCR >> and overwrote it. The 1600bpi was residue which was previous tape >> contents? > > No, that's the odd thing--both files (tar) were complete from beginning > to end. The first was a smaller version of the second, but otherwise > complete. We'll never know how the thing got that way. I think some drives can handle mid-tape density changes. It may even have been done by DEC, though I may be confusing that with the odd case of RSTS distribution tapes which started out with a DOS-11 label and then switched to ANSI labels. paul From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 12 14:06:45 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 12:06:45 -0700 Subject: Tape Imaging In-Reply-To: <006CBF50-DE08-4D98-BFBD-8B4CC13472E3@comcast.net> References: <6a5e8ec8-2260-4d72-a497-8744517792bc@sydex.com> <6f8a3f1d-b89b-ad85-77a3-4bb7c6b98b34@jwsss.com> <93f0b0dd-34b0-7494-54d5-ed6af0e990a5@sydex.com> <006CBF50-DE08-4D98-BFBD-8B4CC13472E3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6278c28b-50cf-ab91-87f6-1fdfdd283c47@sydex.com> On 08/12/2016 11:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > I think some drives can handle mid-tape density changes. It may even > have been done by DEC, though I may be confusing that with the odd > case of RSTS distribution tapes which started out with a DOS-11 label > and then switched to ANSI labels. Sure, especially the older ones. (Doing it on the 60x/65x CDC drives was mostly a matter of pushing a button). But what drive was used to write this (DEC) tape is a mystery. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 12 14:51:44 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 12:51:44 -0700 Subject: Tape Imaging In-Reply-To: <6278c28b-50cf-ab91-87f6-1fdfdd283c47@sydex.com> References: <6a5e8ec8-2260-4d72-a497-8744517792bc@sydex.com> <6f8a3f1d-b89b-ad85-77a3-4bb7c6b98b34@jwsss.com> <93f0b0dd-34b0-7494-54d5-ed6af0e990a5@sydex.com> <006CBF50-DE08-4D98-BFBD-8B4CC13472E3@comcast.net> <6278c28b-50cf-ab91-87f6-1fdfdd283c47@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6f2860af-062e-6b2b-e884-7df03152ac82@bitsavers.org> On 8/12/16 12:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But what drive was used to write > this (DEC) tape is a mystery. > DEC didn't sell a whole lot of different 1600/6250 drives. TU78 was probably the most common. and.. as I was writing this I remembered that it was possible to switch densities on that drive mid-tape. I accidentally created a tar tape with two different densities on it. I only tried reading it long after that system was scrapped and found I couldn't. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 12 14:55:42 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 12:55:42 -0700 Subject: Tape imaging In-Reply-To: References: <6d4fde39-62fa-5c9b-fe16-4dc49d618c22@bitsavers.org> <20160811141532.GA27950@lonesome.com> <9f5f0d31-3f15-391d-4153-42dae9010f61@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 8/12/16 10:14 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2016-08-12 10:27, Al Kossow wrote: >> physical is a .1 grid of square pins coming off of a flex cable to the head stack. >> electrical is you supply a bias current and directly read magnetic flux with an opamp > OK, >> I traced all of that out the last time I made a run at this windmill. John used an FPGA >> development board with an 18 channel A/D, which also controlled modified firmware on the motor driver >> and digitizes the tach pulse to get actual tape speed. > > 18/36 channels? Which sample rate? Resolution? > had to dig up my notes from 2013 the drive I have is 18 track (3480 head) with 18 NE5592D differential amps the A/D is a AD7322 2 channel 12 bit 1msample I have no idea what the actual sample rate used is and I can't really tell from the picture in the presentation >> MANY years ago, I bought a dozen 3480s in Chicago and stripped them for the heads at my parent's >> farm in Wisconsin, so I could try grafting one onto another transport if I had to. I've been unsuccessfully >> trying for years to get the schematics for a 9914 or 9914V (they aren't inlcuded in the service manual). > > So, going for the 36 track heads too? I would be happy just to get this one running. I'm not too keen on digging for more head stacks right now. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 16:34:07 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 16:34:07 -0500 Subject: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> Message-ID: <57AE40CF.1020502@gmail.com> On 08/12/2016 11:33 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Whatever, the original company and mindset is long gone. No use crying > over spilt milk. Company, mindset, and the industry in which it operated, to be honest. I don't think I could get particularly excited about putting a SGI-branded graphics card in my PC, no matter how good it might be. Jules From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Aug 12 16:48:49 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 17:48:49 -0400 Subject: Halt and Catch Fire season about to start on TV! Message-ID: <11c854.4227540a.44df9e41@aol.com> Halt and Catch Fire season about to start on TV! Ed# http://www.amc.com/shows/halt-and-catch-fire?utm_source=newsletter&utm_mediu m=email&utm_content=7-halt-home&utm_campaign=AMC-Weekly From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 17:42:24 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 18:42:24 -0400 Subject: For trade: beautiful Data General Nova 820 w/ Diablo Drive & controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Whoops. mailed the whole list.... sorry. On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 1:02 PM, devin davison wrote: > I am interested in the data general nova 820. I have a pdp 11, i have been > looking to get into the data general machines for a while now. I have many > sgi machines around here. Sgi crimson, tezro, many octanes, octane 2's , > indigo, indy indigo, etc. tons of related software for the sgi machines > too. mostly around 3d modeling or video work, as to be expected. > > Would any of those be of interest to you for trade. I would prefer not to > part with the crimson. > If to be sold for a cash value, what is your asking price? > > > --Devin > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > >> I picked this early DG machine up and although it's awesome and complete, >> I >> just don't think I'll get to restoring it. >> >> I'd like to trade for anything Symbolics, or potentially other very early >> graphical workstation hardware (PERQ, 68K SGI, etc.) >> >> Located in Seattle, but I am no stranger to freight. >> >> This is an early DG jumbo chassis with everything you need, tons of core, >> and the removable pack drive. >> >> Cheers, >> >> - Ian >> >> >> -- >> Ian Finder >> (206) 395-MIPS >> ian.finder at gmail.com >> > > From chrise at pobox.com Fri Aug 12 18:01:11 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 18:01:11 -0500 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160812230111.GD1154@n0jcf.net> On Friday (08/12/2016 at 07:33AM -0700), Brad H wrote: > > > I've a question. ?I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800.. is there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still connected to the CT? ?Or do I have to load something in via PC first and then swap cables? The "usual" method in the day was that the paper tape reader on the M33 teletype connected to the 6800 as the console was used to load your s-records in through MIKBUG. When you started the tape reader, it was just like you were typing it on the TTY's keyboad. Later, a cassette interface such as SWTPC AC-30 or the PERCOM CIS-30 was used and it sat between the terminal's RS232 interface and the SWTPC's console interface. When you were loading a tape, the terminal got disconnected (electrically) and the data coming off the tape was sent to the console input of the 6800. So, in simple terms, the cassette interface was in series with the terminal and could preempt the terminal when loading from tape. To save to tape, the output from the 6800 would essentially go to both the tape and the terminal at the same time. The modern equivalent is probably an RS232 A/B switch that either connects your CT-1024 or a PC to the 6800's console. When you want to "load a tape" you flip the switch so that the PC connects to the 6800 and sends the s-records in. After the load is complete, you flip the switch back and the CT-1024 becomes the console. You could also diode-OR the transmit data from the CT-1024 and a PC to the 6800's receive data input and wire the transmit data from the 6800's output to both the CT-1024 and the PC but this might be sketchy depending on the PC's RS232 interface characteristics. But I have done this successfully with other RS232 interfaces where I wanted two devices to be able to send to one receiver without having to physically disconnect or flip a switch. Chris > -------- Original message -------- > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Date: 2016-08-11 11:27 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > Very interresting read, thank you Ethan. > > /P > > On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +0000), tony duell wrote: > > >> > > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? > > > > > > No.? ;-) > > > > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep > > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in > > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago.? I get > > why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my > > experiences as "typical". > > > > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic > > light".? I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple > > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff.? *Mostly*, if you plug everything in > > and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have > > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop > > adding null-modem adapters.? Past that, you have to know if either end > > requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals > > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the > > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides > > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking.? If you defeat it, you might > > run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to > > establish basic comms and pass a few characters.? To that end, you do > > have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start > > is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits.? I've run into multiple > > situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer.? With enough > > experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on an often > > recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out what the > > speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a serial analyzer > > or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" until cleartext comes > > through.? I also try the speeds in "most popular order", 9600, 1200, > > 300, 2400, 4800, 19200, 600... in the hopes of saving time.? Every > > once in a while, you run into some oddball stuff, like 9600/150, etc., > > split speeds from the days of timesharing setups where the CPU wanted > > to get data to the users as fast as possible but wanted to minimize > > input interrupts and more closely match the input flow to (slow) human > > typing speeds.? This wasn't common with microcomputers, but I've seen > > it with PDP-11 and PDP-8 setups and isn't something to look for first, > > but it does exist and highlights how strange things can get if all > > you've ever done is plug a high speed modem into a PC for dial-up > > internet. > > > > One important tip about USB serial dongles (and some laptops DE9 > > serial ports) - I've had problems with some of them and 1970s gear > > because the EIA/RS-232C (1969) level specification is +5V to +15V for > > space (0) and -15V to -5V for mark (1) (with +/-3V min sensitivity) > > and a lot of old gear is expecting +/-12V and not happy with > > lower-voltage lines and thin wires that don't help signal losses.? One > > case in particular was a 1977-era Bridgeport Series II CNC mill with a > > LSI-11/03 CPU and a lot of custom Bridgeport boards.? Everyone else > > who tried to talk to the Bridgeport before me had zero success.? I > > checked all the things on the list and finally pulled out the laptop > > and set up a Dell desktop which worked the first time.? When > > connecting to pre-1982 gear, I'd definitely try it from a desktop if a > > laptop is just not working.? Checking the lines with an oscilloscope > > could also help verify this what's giving the grief (I did not have > > one handy when we were trying to get that CNC mill working). > > > > In terms of serial analyzers, there are several types out there, and > > the ones that I've had the most time on are the HP 4951/4952 series. > > There are different models with different features, but if you are > > going to shop for one, ensure it comes with the "keyboard lid" because > > that's where the line drivers and serial connectors are.? The large > > connector on the back goes to a "pod" that happens to snap on the > > front of the unit when the keyboard is flipped up.? It's much easier > > to find the base units than loose pods, IME.? Check which pod.? I've > > seen many with DB25s, which is probably what you want, but I've also > > seen DC-37 connectors, and non-EIA (RS-232) level shifters.? The good > > news is that among these different models, the pods should be > > interchangable, so if you end up picking up 2 units (not unusual) with > > different base capabilities (some have DC-150 cassette tape, some have > > 3.5" floppy, plus some minor differences) and only one has a DB25 EIA > > pod, you can at least migrate it between the units.? I find the serial > > analyzers invaluable for snooping on the details of what's happening > > on the wire, but any analyzers I have seen have a handy "autoconfig" > > button to sniff traffic and configure the line for monitoring, so it's > > often a quick click to get all the parameters if you don't already > > know them.? Where they really shine is looking for troubles at the > > application layer, debugging Kermit or XMODEM traffic that isn't > > working for any obvious reason.? The advanced stuff you can do is to > > write programs for some analyzers to simulate a host or a client for > > software debugging or to reproduce a problem for deeper analysis - > > this is far beyond the usual "why can't I get this terminal working > > with this vintage machine" but when you need it, you need it. > > > > In summary, I start by scoping the line with an LED traffic light > > (swapping lines or making custom cables where necessary), then move on > > the speed and parity settings (and changing the easier-to-change end), > > then look deeper when the easy stuff doesn't work.? Easy problems take > > minutes or less.? Hard problems can take a long time to resolve. > > > > -ethan -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Fri Aug 12 18:15:04 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 18:15:04 -0500 Subject: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> Message-ID: <20160812231504.GF1154@n0jcf.net> On Friday (08/12/2016 at 09:33AM -0700), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 08/12/2016 06:17 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: > > > SGI was already destroyed decades ago. With more vision, they could > > have transitioned the business into becoming an Nvidia instead of a > > faceless rack server company. > > But that's really what SGI is/was today--the former Rackable Systems who > inherited the name after purchasing the Chapter 11 remains of SGI back > in 2009, except for some tidbits held by a mystery group called > "Graphics Properties Holdings, Inc.", which is probably the name of some > file in a lawyer's office in New Rochelle. GPH is mostly known for > using old SGI patents to go after the likes of Samsung, Google and Amazon. > > In the 1990s, SGI always seemed to me to be more of a hedge fund > operations, acquiring and then relinquishing MIPS and Cray, picking up > Intergraph and Wavefront. I suspect that releasing MIPS and Cray via > IPOs was a way to raise capital. > > Whatever, the original company and mindset is long gone. No use crying > over spilt milk. There are some SGI people here in MN that figure, from a severance standpoint, getting laid off from HP is probably better than getting laid off from SGI. So, you know, they have new found optimism. -- Chris Elmquist From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 12 20:17:27 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 18:17:27 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: <1vh7fg65aao8wkkfrd8iapvu.1471051047732@email.android.com> Interesting. ?I thought the CT-1024 was sort of the intended companion for the 6800 (It came out first, I think). ?I wonder what they expected people to do if they had just those two devices? I'll probably try cable swap and see how onerous that is. ?I'm hoping to one day acquire an AC-30.. of course then I'd need to find tape files... Do you know of any good repository for the kind of loader files you can load via serial? ?I've found a few here and there but not all of them.? Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Chris Elmquist Date: 2016-08-12 4:01 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 On Friday (08/12/2016 at 07:33AM -0700), Brad H wrote: > >???? > I've a question. ?I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800.. is there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still connected to the CT? ?Or do I have to load something in via PC first and then swap cables? The "usual" method in the day was that the paper tape reader on the M33 teletype connected to the 6800 as the console was used to load your s-records in through MIKBUG.? When you started the tape reader, it was just like you were typing it on the TTY's keyboad. Later, a cassette interface such as SWTPC AC-30 or the PERCOM CIS-30 was used and it sat between the terminal's RS232 interface and the SWTPC's console interface.?? When you were loading a tape, the terminal got disconnected (electrically) and the data coming off the tape was sent to the console input of the 6800. So, in simple terms, the cassette interface was in series with the terminal and could preempt the terminal when loading from tape.? To save to tape, the output from the 6800 would essentially go to both the tape and the terminal at the same time. The modern equivalent is probably an RS232 A/B switch that either connects your CT-1024 or a PC to the 6800's console.? When you want to "load a tape" you flip the switch so that the PC connects to the 6800 and sends the s-records in.? After the load is complete, you flip the switch back and the CT-1024 becomes the console. You could also diode-OR the transmit data from the CT-1024 and a PC to the 6800's receive data input and wire the transmit data from the 6800's output to both the CT-1024 and the PC but this might be sketchy depending on the PC's RS232 interface characteristics.??? But I have done this successfully with other RS232 interfaces where I wanted two devices to be able to send to one receiver without having to physically disconnect or flip a switch. Chris > -------- Original message -------- > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Date: 2016-08-11? 11:27 PM? (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > Very interresting read, thank you Ethan. > > /P > > On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +0000), tony duell wrote: > > >> > > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? > > > > > > No.? ;-) > > > > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep > > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in > > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago.? I get > > why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my > > experiences as "typical". > > > > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic > > light".? I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple > > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff.? *Mostly*, if you plug everything in > > and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have > > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop > > adding null-modem adapters.? Past that, you have to know if either end > > requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals > > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the > > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides > > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking.? If you defeat it, you might > > run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to > > establish basic comms and pass a few characters.? To that end, you do > > have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start > > is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits.? I've run into multiple > > situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer.? With enough > > experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on an often > > recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out what the > > speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a serial analyzer > > or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" until cleartext comes > > through.? I also try the speeds in "most popular order", 9600, 1200, > > 300, 2400, 4800, 19200, 600... in the hopes of saving time.? Every > > once in a while, you run into some oddball stuff, like 9600/150, etc., > > split speeds from the days of timesharing setups where the CPU wanted > > to get data to the users as fast as possible but wanted to minimize > > input interrupts and more closely match the input flow to (slow) human > > typing speeds.? This wasn't common with microcomputers, but I've seen > > it with PDP-11 and PDP-8 setups and isn't something to look for first, > > but it does exist and highlights how strange things can get if all > > you've ever done is plug a high speed modem into a PC for dial-up > > internet. > > > > One important tip about USB serial dongles (and some laptops DE9 > > serial ports) - I've had problems with some of them and 1970s gear > > because the EIA/RS-232C (1969) level specification is +5V to +15V for > > space (0) and -15V to -5V for mark (1) (with +/-3V min sensitivity) > > and a lot of old gear is expecting +/-12V and not happy with > > lower-voltage lines and thin wires that don't help signal losses.? One > > case in particular was a 1977-era Bridgeport Series II CNC mill with a > > LSI-11/03 CPU and a lot of custom Bridgeport boards.? Everyone else > > who tried to talk to the Bridgeport before me had zero success.? I > > checked all the things on the list and finally pulled out the laptop > > and set up a Dell desktop which worked the first time.? When > > connecting to pre-1982 gear, I'd definitely try it from a desktop if a > > laptop is just not working.? Checking the lines with an oscilloscope > > could also help verify this what's giving the grief (I did not have > > one handy when we were trying to get that CNC mill working). > > > > In terms of serial analyzers, there are several types out there, and > > the ones that I've had the most time on are the HP 4951/4952 series. > > There are different models with different features, but if you are > > going to shop for one, ensure it comes with the "keyboard lid" because > > that's where the line drivers and serial connectors are.? The large > > connector on the back goes to a "pod" that happens to snap on the > > front of the unit when the keyboard is flipped up.? It's much easier > > to find the base units than loose pods, IME.? Check which pod.? I've > > seen many with DB25s, which is probably what you want, but I've also > > seen DC-37 connectors, and non-EIA (RS-232) level shifters.? The good > > news is that among these different models, the pods should be > > interchangable, so if you end up picking up 2 units (not unusual) with > > different base capabilities (some have DC-150 cassette tape, some have > > 3.5" floppy, plus some minor differences) and only one has a DB25 EIA > > pod, you can at least migrate it between the units.? I find the serial > > analyzers invaluable for snooping on the details of what's happening > > on the wire, but any analyzers I have seen have a handy "autoconfig" > > button to sniff traffic and configure the line for monitoring, so it's > > often a quick click to get all the parameters if you don't already > > know them.? Where they really shine is looking for troubles at the > > application layer, debugging Kermit or XMODEM traffic that isn't > > working for any obvious reason.? The advanced stuff you can do is to > > write programs for some analyzers to simulate a host or a client for > > software debugging or to reproduce a problem for deeper analysis - > > this is far beyond the usual "why can't I get this terminal working > > with this vintage machine" but when you need it, you need it. > > > > In summary, I start by scoping the line with an LED traffic light > > (swapping lines or making custom cables where necessary), then move on > > the speed and parity settings (and changing the easier-to-change end), > > then look deeper when the easy stuff doesn't work.? Easy problems take > > minutes or less.? Hard problems can take a long time to resolve. > > > > -ethan -- Chris Elmquist From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 20:44:39 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 21:44:39 -0400 Subject: SWTPC 6800 References: <1vh7fg65aao8wkkfrd8iapvu.1471051047732@email.android.com> Message-ID: I'm still looking for my AC-30; as soon as I find it it's yours. See ya off-list... m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad H" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 9:17 PM Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > > Interesting. I thought the CT-1024 was sort of the intended companion for the 6800 (It came out first, I think). I wonder what they expected people to do if they had just those two devices? > I'll probably try cable swap and see how onerous that is. I'm hoping to one day acquire an AC-30.. of course then I'd need to find tape files... > Do you know of any good repository for the kind of loader files you can load via serial? I've found a few here and there but not all of them. > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chris Elmquist > Date: 2016-08-12 4:01 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > On Friday (08/12/2016 at 07:33AM -0700), Brad H wrote: >> >> >> I've a question. I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800.. is there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still connected to the CT? Or do I have to load something in via PC first and then swap cables? > > The "usual" method in the day was that the paper tape reader on the > M33 teletype connected to the 6800 as the console was used to load your > s-records in through MIKBUG. When you started the tape reader, it was > just like you were typing it on the TTY's keyboad. > > Later, a cassette interface such as SWTPC AC-30 or the PERCOM CIS-30 was > used and it sat between the terminal's RS232 interface and the SWTPC's > console interface. When you were loading a tape, the terminal got > disconnected (electrically) and the data coming off the tape was sent > to the console input of the 6800. > > So, in simple terms, the cassette interface was in series with the > terminal and could preempt the terminal when loading from tape. To save > to tape, the output from the 6800 would essentially go to both the tape > and the terminal at the same time. > > The modern equivalent is probably an RS232 A/B switch that either > connects your CT-1024 or a PC to the 6800's console. When you want to > "load a tape" you flip the switch so that the PC connects to the 6800 > and sends the s-records in. After the load is complete, you flip the > switch back and the CT-1024 becomes the console. > > You could also diode-OR the transmit data from the CT-1024 and a PC to > the 6800's receive data input and wire the transmit data from the 6800's > output to both the CT-1024 and the PC but this might be sketchy depending > on the PC's RS232 interface characteristics. But I have done this > successfully with other RS232 interfaces where I wanted two devices to > be able to send to one receiver without having to physically disconnect > or flip a switch. > > Chris > >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Pontus Pihlgren >> Date: 2016-08-11 11:27 PM (GMT-08:00) >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 >> >> Very interresting read, thank you Ethan. >> >> /P >> >> On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +0000), tony duell wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? >> > > >> > > No. ;-) >> > >> > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep >> > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in >> > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago. I get >> > why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my >> > experiences as "typical". >> > >> > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic >> > light". I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple >> > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff. *Mostly*, if you plug everything in >> > and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have >> > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop >> > adding null-modem adapters. Past that, you have to know if either end >> > requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals >> > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the >> > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides >> > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking. If you defeat it, you might >> > run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to >> > establish basic comms and pass a few characters. To that end, you do >> > have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start >> > is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits. I've run into multiple >> > situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer. With enough >> > experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on an often >> > recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out what the >> > speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a serial analyzer >> > or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" until cleartext comes >> > through. I also try the speeds in "most popular order", 9600, 1200, >> > 300, 2400, 4800, 19200, 600... in the hopes of saving time. Every >> > once in a while, you run into some oddball stuff, like 9600/150, etc., >> > split speeds from the days of timesharing setups where the CPU wanted >> > to get data to the users as fast as possible but wanted to minimize >> > input interrupts and more closely match the input flow to (slow) human >> > typing speeds. This wasn't common with microcomputers, but I've seen >> > it with PDP-11 and PDP-8 setups and isn't something to look for first, >> > but it does exist and highlights how strange things can get if all >> > you've ever done is plug a high speed modem into a PC for dial-up >> > internet. >> > >> > One important tip about USB serial dongles (and some laptops DE9 >> > serial ports) - I've had problems with some of them and 1970s gear >> > because the EIA/RS-232C (1969) level specification is +5V to +15V for >> > space (0) and -15V to -5V for mark (1) (with +/-3V min sensitivity) >> > and a lot of old gear is expecting +/-12V and not happy with >> > lower-voltage lines and thin wires that don't help signal losses. One >> > case in particular was a 1977-era Bridgeport Series II CNC mill with a >> > LSI-11/03 CPU and a lot of custom Bridgeport boards. Everyone else >> > who tried to talk to the Bridgeport before me had zero success. I >> > checked all the things on the list and finally pulled out the laptop >> > and set up a Dell desktop which worked the first time. When >> > connecting to pre-1982 gear, I'd definitely try it from a desktop if a >> > laptop is just not working. Checking the lines with an oscilloscope >> > could also help verify this what's giving the grief (I did not have >> > one handy when we were trying to get that CNC mill working). >> > >> > In terms of serial analyzers, there are several types out there, and >> > the ones that I've had the most time on are the HP 4951/4952 series. >> > There are different models with different features, but if you are >> > going to shop for one, ensure it comes with the "keyboard lid" because >> > that's where the line drivers and serial connectors are. The large >> > connector on the back goes to a "pod" that happens to snap on the >> > front of the unit when the keyboard is flipped up. It's much easier >> > to find the base units than loose pods, IME. Check which pod. I've >> > seen many with DB25s, which is probably what you want, but I've also >> > seen DC-37 connectors, and non-EIA (RS-232) level shifters. The good >> > news is that among these different models, the pods should be >> > interchangable, so if you end up picking up 2 units (not unusual) with >> > different base capabilities (some have DC-150 cassette tape, some have >> > 3.5" floppy, plus some minor differences) and only one has a DB25 EIA >> > pod, you can at least migrate it between the units. I find the serial >> > analyzers invaluable for snooping on the details of what's happening >> > on the wire, but any analyzers I have seen have a handy "autoconfig" >> > button to sniff traffic and configure the line for monitoring, so it's >> > often a quick click to get all the parameters if you don't already >> > know them. Where they really shine is looking for troubles at the >> > application layer, debugging Kermit or XMODEM traffic that isn't >> > working for any obvious reason. The advanced stuff you can do is to >> > write programs for some analyzers to simulate a host or a client for >> > software debugging or to reproduce a problem for deeper analysis - >> > this is far beyond the usual "why can't I get this terminal working >> > with this vintage machine" but when you need it, you need it. >> > >> > In summary, I start by scoping the line with an LED traffic light >> > (swapping lines or making custom cables where necessary), then move on >> > the speed and parity settings (and changing the easier-to-change end), >> > then look deeper when the easy stuff doesn't work. Easy problems take >> > minutes or less. Hard problems can take a long time to resolve. >> > >> > -ethan > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From seefriek at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 21:01:23 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 22:01:23 -0400 Subject: Atlanta Open House Tomorrow Message-ID: I'd be more than happy to look for what people want, but an address, start time and required payment type would help. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 12 21:37:01 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 19:37:01 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: <1vh7fg65aao8wkkfrd8iapvu.1471051047732@email.android.com> Message-ID: <00a401d1f50b$94013ed0$bc03bc70$@bettercomputing.net> Many thanks Mike! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stein Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 6:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 I'm still looking for my AC-30; as soon as I find it it's yours. See ya off-list... m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad H" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 9:17 PM Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > > Interesting. I thought the CT-1024 was sort of the intended companion for the 6800 (It came out first, I think). I wonder what they expected people to do if they had just those two devices? > I'll probably try cable swap and see how onerous that is. I'm hoping to one day acquire an AC-30.. of course then I'd need to find tape files... > Do you know of any good repository for the kind of loader files you can load via serial? I've found a few here and there but not all of them. > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Chris Elmquist > Date: 2016-08-12 4:01 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > On Friday (08/12/2016 at 07:33AM -0700), Brad H wrote: >> >> >> I've a question. I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800.. is there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still connected to the CT? Or do I have to load something in via PC first and then swap cables? > > The "usual" method in the day was that the paper tape reader on the > M33 teletype connected to the 6800 as the console was used to load your > s-records in through MIKBUG. When you started the tape reader, it was > just like you were typing it on the TTY's keyboad. > > Later, a cassette interface such as SWTPC AC-30 or the PERCOM CIS-30 was > used and it sat between the terminal's RS232 interface and the SWTPC's > console interface. When you were loading a tape, the terminal got > disconnected (electrically) and the data coming off the tape was sent > to the console input of the 6800. > > So, in simple terms, the cassette interface was in series with the > terminal and could preempt the terminal when loading from tape. To save > to tape, the output from the 6800 would essentially go to both the tape > and the terminal at the same time. > > The modern equivalent is probably an RS232 A/B switch that either > connects your CT-1024 or a PC to the 6800's console. When you want to > "load a tape" you flip the switch so that the PC connects to the 6800 > and sends the s-records in. After the load is complete, you flip the > switch back and the CT-1024 becomes the console. > > You could also diode-OR the transmit data from the CT-1024 and a PC to > the 6800's receive data input and wire the transmit data from the 6800's > output to both the CT-1024 and the PC but this might be sketchy depending > on the PC's RS232 interface characteristics. But I have done this > successfully with other RS232 interfaces where I wanted two devices to > be able to send to one receiver without having to physically disconnect > or flip a switch. > > Chris > >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Pontus Pihlgren >> Date: 2016-08-11 11:27 PM (GMT-08:00) >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 >> >> Very interresting read, thank you Ethan. >> >> /P >> >> On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +0000), tony duell wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? >> > > >> > > No. ;-) >> > >> > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep >> > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in >> > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago. I get >> > why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my >> > experiences as "typical". >> > >> > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic >> > light". I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple >> > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff. *Mostly*, if you plug everything in >> > and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have >> > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop >> > adding null-modem adapters. Past that, you have to know if either end >> > requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals >> > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the >> > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides >> > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking. If you defeat it, you might >> > run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to >> > establish basic comms and pass a few characters. To that end, you do >> > have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start >> > is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits. I've run into multiple >> > situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer. With enough >> > experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on an often >> > recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out what the >> > speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a serial analyzer >> > or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" until cleartext comes >> > through. I also try the speeds in "most popular order", 9600, 1200, >> > 300, 2400, 4800, 19200, 600... in the hopes of saving time. Every >> > once in a while, you run into some oddball stuff, like 9600/150, etc., >> > split speeds from the days of timesharing setups where the CPU wanted >> > to get data to the users as fast as possible but wanted to minimize >> > input interrupts and more closely match the input flow to (slow) human >> > typing speeds. This wasn't common with microcomputers, but I've seen >> > it with PDP-11 and PDP-8 setups and isn't something to look for first, >> > but it does exist and highlights how strange things can get if all >> > you've ever done is plug a high speed modem into a PC for dial-up >> > internet. >> > >> > One important tip about USB serial dongles (and some laptops DE9 >> > serial ports) - I've had problems with some of them and 1970s gear >> > because the EIA/RS-232C (1969) level specification is +5V to +15V for >> > space (0) and -15V to -5V for mark (1) (with +/-3V min sensitivity) >> > and a lot of old gear is expecting +/-12V and not happy with >> > lower-voltage lines and thin wires that don't help signal losses. One >> > case in particular was a 1977-era Bridgeport Series II CNC mill with a >> > LSI-11/03 CPU and a lot of custom Bridgeport boards. Everyone else >> > who tried to talk to the Bridgeport before me had zero success. I >> > checked all the things on the list and finally pulled out the laptop >> > and set up a Dell desktop which worked the first time. When >> > connecting to pre-1982 gear, I'd definitely try it from a desktop if a >> > laptop is just not working. Checking the lines with an oscilloscope >> > could also help verify this what's giving the grief (I did not have >> > one handy when we were trying to get that CNC mill working). >> > >> > In terms of serial analyzers, there are several types out there, and >> > the ones that I've had the most time on are the HP 4951/4952 series. >> > There are different models with different features, but if you are >> > going to shop for one, ensure it comes with the "keyboard lid" because >> > that's where the line drivers and serial connectors are. The large >> > connector on the back goes to a "pod" that happens to snap on the >> > front of the unit when the keyboard is flipped up. It's much easier >> > to find the base units than loose pods, IME. Check which pod. I've >> > seen many with DB25s, which is probably what you want, but I've also >> > seen DC-37 connectors, and non-EIA (RS-232) level shifters. The good >> > news is that among these different models, the pods should be >> > interchangable, so if you end up picking up 2 units (not unusual) with >> > different base capabilities (some have DC-150 cassette tape, some have >> > 3.5" floppy, plus some minor differences) and only one has a DB25 EIA >> > pod, you can at least migrate it between the units. I find the serial >> > analyzers invaluable for snooping on the details of what's happening >> > on the wire, but any analyzers I have seen have a handy "autoconfig" >> > button to sniff traffic and configure the line for monitoring, so it's >> > often a quick click to get all the parameters if you don't already >> > know them. Where they really shine is looking for troubles at the >> > application layer, debugging Kermit or XMODEM traffic that isn't >> > working for any obvious reason. The advanced stuff you can do is to >> > write programs for some analyzers to simulate a host or a client for >> > software debugging or to reproduce a problem for deeper analysis - >> > this is far beyond the usual "why can't I get this terminal working >> > with this vintage machine" but when you need it, you need it. >> > >> > In summary, I start by scoping the line with an LED traffic light >> > (swapping lines or making custom cables where necessary), then move on >> > the speed and parity settings (and changing the easier-to-change end), >> > then look deeper when the easy stuff doesn't work. Easy problems take >> > minutes or less. Hard problems can take a long time to resolve. >> > >> > -ethan > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Aug 12 21:39:09 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 19:39:09 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <20160812230111.GD1154@n0jcf.net> References: <20160812230111.GD1154@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <00a501d1f50b$dfbd8540$9f388fc0$@bettercomputing.net> Okay so I gave it a try. As it turned out, I had a serial cable that had both DB-25 and DB-9 heads at both ends. So I thought I'd try using the prolific USB to serial adapter I had here with my modern laptop so I could easily download text files and run them. Yeah no. The prolific cable allows you to set speeds as low as 110 but it does not like them. At 110 you just get garbage. At 300, a prompt, but then garbage. There's no way to have both the MP-C and MP-S cards in the same machine and have the computer connected to one at a faster rate of speed is there? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Elmquist Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 4:01 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 On Friday (08/12/2016 at 07:33AM -0700), Brad H wrote: > > > I've a question. ?I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800.. is there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still connected to the CT? ?Or do I have to load something in via PC first and then swap cables? The "usual" method in the day was that the paper tape reader on the M33 teletype connected to the 6800 as the console was used to load your s-records in through MIKBUG. When you started the tape reader, it was just like you were typing it on the TTY's keyboad. Later, a cassette interface such as SWTPC AC-30 or the PERCOM CIS-30 was used and it sat between the terminal's RS232 interface and the SWTPC's console interface. When you were loading a tape, the terminal got disconnected (electrically) and the data coming off the tape was sent to the console input of the 6800. So, in simple terms, the cassette interface was in series with the terminal and could preempt the terminal when loading from tape. To save to tape, the output from the 6800 would essentially go to both the tape and the terminal at the same time. The modern equivalent is probably an RS232 A/B switch that either connects your CT-1024 or a PC to the 6800's console. When you want to "load a tape" you flip the switch so that the PC connects to the 6800 and sends the s-records in. After the load is complete, you flip the switch back and the CT-1024 becomes the console. You could also diode-OR the transmit data from the CT-1024 and a PC to the 6800's receive data input and wire the transmit data from the 6800's output to both the CT-1024 and the PC but this might be sketchy depending on the PC's RS232 interface characteristics. But I have done this successfully with other RS232 interfaces where I wanted two devices to be able to send to one receiver without having to physically disconnect or flip a switch. Chris > -------- Original message -------- > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Date: 2016-08-11 11:27 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 > > Very interresting read, thank you Ethan. > > /P > > On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +0000), tony duell wrote: > > >> > > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems? > > > > > > No.? ;-) > > > > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep > > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in > > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago.? I > > get why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my > > experiences as "typical". > > > > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic > > light".? I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple > > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff.? *Mostly*, if you plug everything > > in and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have > > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop > > adding null-modem adapters.? Past that, you have to know if either > > end requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals > > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the > > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides > > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking.? If you defeat it, you might > > run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to > > establish basic comms and pass a few characters.? To that end, you > > do have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to > > start is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits.? I've run into > > multiple situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer.? With > > enough experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on > > an often recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out > > what the speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a > > serial analyzer or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" > > until cleartext comes through.? I also try the speeds in "most > > popular order", 9600, 1200, 300, 2400, 4800, 19200, 600... in the > > hopes of saving time.? Every once in a while, you run into some > > oddball stuff, like 9600/150, etc., split speeds from the days of > > timesharing setups where the CPU wanted to get data to the users as > > fast as possible but wanted to minimize input interrupts and more > > closely match the input flow to (slow) human typing speeds.? This > > wasn't common with microcomputers, but I've seen it with PDP-11 and > > PDP-8 setups and isn't something to look for first, but it does > > exist and highlights how strange things can get if all you've ever > > done is plug a high speed modem into a PC for dial-up internet. > > > > One important tip about USB serial dongles (and some laptops DE9 > > serial ports) - I've had problems with some of them and 1970s gear > > because the EIA/RS-232C (1969) level specification is +5V to +15V > > for space (0) and -15V to -5V for mark (1) (with +/-3V min > > sensitivity) and a lot of old gear is expecting +/-12V and not happy > > with lower-voltage lines and thin wires that don't help signal > > losses.? One case in particular was a 1977-era Bridgeport Series II > > CNC mill with a > > LSI-11/03 CPU and a lot of custom Bridgeport boards.? Everyone else > > who tried to talk to the Bridgeport before me had zero success.? I > > checked all the things on the list and finally pulled out the laptop > > and set up a Dell desktop which worked the first time.? When > > connecting to pre-1982 gear, I'd definitely try it from a desktop if > > a laptop is just not working.? Checking the lines with an > > oscilloscope could also help verify this what's giving the grief (I > > did not have one handy when we were trying to get that CNC mill working). > > > > In terms of serial analyzers, there are several types out there, and > > the ones that I've had the most time on are the HP 4951/4952 series. > > There are different models with different features, but if you are > > going to shop for one, ensure it comes with the "keyboard lid" > > because that's where the line drivers and serial connectors are.? > > The large connector on the back goes to a "pod" that happens to snap > > on the front of the unit when the keyboard is flipped up.? It's much > > easier to find the base units than loose pods, IME.? Check which > > pod.? I've seen many with DB25s, which is probably what you want, > > but I've also seen DC-37 connectors, and non-EIA (RS-232) level > > shifters.? The good news is that among these different models, the > > pods should be interchangable, so if you end up picking up 2 units > > (not unusual) with different base capabilities (some have DC-150 > > cassette tape, some have 3.5" floppy, plus some minor differences) > > and only one has a DB25 EIA pod, you can at least migrate it between > > the units.? I find the serial analyzers invaluable for snooping on > > the details of what's happening on the wire, but any analyzers I have seen have a handy "autoconfig" > > button to sniff traffic and configure the line for monitoring, so > > it's often a quick click to get all the parameters if you don't > > already know them.? Where they really shine is looking for troubles > > at the application layer, debugging Kermit or XMODEM traffic that > > isn't working for any obvious reason.? The advanced stuff you can do > > is to write programs for some analyzers to simulate a host or a > > client for software debugging or to reproduce a problem for deeper > > analysis - this is far beyond the usual "why can't I get this > > terminal working with this vintage machine" but when you need it, you need it. > > > > In summary, I start by scoping the line with an LED traffic light > > (swapping lines or making custom cables where necessary), then move > > on the speed and parity settings (and changing the easier-to-change > > end), then look deeper when the easy stuff doesn't work.? Easy > > problems take minutes or less.? Hard problems can take a long time to resolve. > > > > -ethan -- Chris Elmquist From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 12 23:39:19 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 21:39:19 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <00a501d1f50b$dfbd8540$9f388fc0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <20160812230111.GD1154@n0jcf.net> <00a501d1f50b$dfbd8540$9f388fc0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <77F28087-B6FE-422F-97CB-146C3536808E@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Aug-12, at 7:39 PM, Brad H wrote: > There's no way to have both the MP-C and MP-S cards in the same machine and > have the computer connected to one at a faster rate of speed is there? As far the hardware goes, yes, you can have both cards in there operating at different speeds. Your problem is getting SWTBUG to use the alternative serial card (port) for the loader command, rather than the console port. To my recollection it (SWTBUG) is not programmed to provide for that. I have a vague recollection of some monitor that allowed one to redirect the I/O port for the subsequent command or something like that but it was probably for some other machine (don't have the command list for SWTBUG at hand). So you could modify SWTBUG (typically with hand-assembled patches) and add a new facility and burn a new EPROM to give you a monitor tailored for your system config. Welcome to the world of hobbyist computing, 1976. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Aug 13 00:51:25 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 22:51:25 -0700 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: Thanks! ?I'm definitely enjoying my trips back to 1976. ?My house is early 70s and in the basement with an old table and the terminal, computer and monitor I'm pretty much in 1976. ?I really am hoping to learn how to program using the monitor... still don't completely understand how adding two digits to memory addresses makes it do something. I'll probably leave the machine be.. it's a bit fragile. ?Might be fun to get the disk card working and get a working drive for it.. although I have no software on disk. Re: EPROM programming.. wish I could do that with my MSI 6800.. and get it back to stock config. ?The homemade monitor it has is useless! Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Brent Hilpert Date: 2016-08-12 9:39 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 On 2016-Aug-12, at 7:39 PM, Brad H wrote: > There's no way to have both the MP-C and MP-S cards in the same machine and > have the computer connected to one at a faster rate of speed is there? As far the hardware goes, yes, you can have both cards in there operating at different speeds. Your problem is getting SWTBUG to use the alternative serial card (port) for the loader command, rather than the console port. To my recollection it (SWTBUG) is not programmed to provide for that. I have a vague recollection of some monitor that allowed one to redirect the I/O port for the subsequent command or something like that but it was probably for some other machine (don't have the command list for SWTBUG at hand). So you could modify SWTBUG (typically with hand-assembled patches) and add a new facility and burn a new EPROM to give you a monitor tailored for your system config. Welcome to the world of hobbyist computing, 1976. From dave at mitton.com Fri Aug 12 22:13:40 2016 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 23:13:40 -0400 Subject: VAX file format conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you are importing files into VMS, you need to become familiar with the EXCHANGE command. (found via Google) http://h20565.www2.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c04623262 It can do stream and carriage control conversions on various RMS fixed formats. When we first brought up DECnet-DOS network file transfer, we had some "discussions" with the VMS RMS engineers that didn't like us doing auto conversions. This was their "compromise". Oh and if you are doing serial transfers, yes, keeping the baud rate low is a good strategy. I had to spend some time working on the DECnet-DOS DDCMP driver developing better character overrun recovery strategies. Yes, you may be coming in via a terminal line, but that line can hiccup from time to time. Dave. On 8/12/2016 01:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:08:39 -0400 >From: Douglas Taylor >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: VAX file format conversion >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > >I have a MicroVax 4000 that I am trying to update the license PAKs on, >the last time I had valid PAKs on this machine was in 2002 (Hobbyist >Licenses). > >I registered and have received the new Hobbyist License PAKs. > >I connected a laptop and transferred the text file using C-Kermit on the >VAX and hyperterminal on the laptop. > >When I go to execute the file, I get an error: > >$@hobbyist-use-only-va.txt > >%RMS-W-RTB 512 bye record to large for user buffer > >It appears that when the file was transferred it showed up on the vax >with fixed length records of 512 bytes, not variable length. > >Can I convert the file on the VAX? > >Is there a setting for C-Kermit that I need to change? > >Is Hyperterminal screwing things up? > >Doug --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat Aug 13 03:07:06 2016 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 17:37:06 +0930 Subject: Intel SDK-85 monitor ROM Message-ID: <532fd1fd-d719-fee6-3f6b-73b5d25eb0c0@kaput.homeunix.org> Hi List, I've started looking at my SDK-85 after having it on the shelf for years. I know the 8355 mask ROM on it isn't working but I haven't been able to find a suitable replacement. I wired up a temporary solution with a 2716 EPROM only to find the ROM image and source code aren't available outside of dead-tree format. I'm not about ready to type out 48 pages of source code. Does anyone have a digital copy of the source, or the assembled binary or, even better, a replacement ROM? (I'm in Adelaide, Australia.) Cheers, Alexis. From chrise at pobox.com Sat Aug 13 06:15:36 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 06:15:36 -0500 Subject: Intel SDK-85 monitor ROM In-Reply-To: <532fd1fd-d719-fee6-3f6b-73b5d25eb0c0@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <532fd1fd-d719-fee6-3f6b-73b5d25eb0c0@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <0306C2A6-8AAB-4D08-898F-9111283403BF@pobox.com> I believe I can help with this. Although I do not have a spare device, I do have the binary as Intel hex as I had the same device fail on my SDK-85 and went through the exercise replacing it. I'll report back off list once I dig up the file. Chris On August 13, 2016 3:07:06 AM CDT, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: >Hi List, > >I've started looking at my SDK-85 after having it on the shelf for >years. I know the 8355 mask ROM on it isn't working but I haven't been >able to find a suitable replacement. I wired up a temporary solution >with a 2716 EPROM only to find the ROM image and source code aren't >available outside of dead-tree format. I'm not about ready to type out >48 pages of source code. Does anyone have a digital copy of the source, >or the assembled binary or, even better, a replacement ROM? > >(I'm in Adelaide, Australia.) > >Cheers, > >Alexis. -- Chris Elmquist From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Aug 13 07:07:18 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 08:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160813120718.A15A018C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > Please register interest in ... PDP-11 panels It will depend on price - will they be the same as the PDP-8 panels (since they are so similar)? If so, can you remind us of the pricing, please? If not, any estimate? I assume you'll eventually be doing all of them (/35, /40, /45, /50, /55, /70 - both variants), but the order will depend on interest? Do you have a /20 panel scan/measurements, to do that one too? If there is any interest in /05-/10 panels, I have one and can scan it. I can't recall any other models with front panels? (Well, the /74, but IIRC there are none of those extant outside museums - although people might want some for simulators.) Noel From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 08:20:13 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 09:20:13 -0400 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20160813120718.A15A018C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160813120718.A15A018C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 13 August 2016 at 08:07, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I can't recall any other models with front panels? (Well, the /74, but IIRC > there are none of those extant outside museums - although people might want > some for simulators.) > The whole list of PDP-11 models with any sort of front panel beyond just an on/off switch is: > 11/20 (11/15) > 11/05 (11/10) > 11/40 (11/35) > 11/45 (11/50, 11/55) > 11/70 (11/74) > 11/34 (11/04, 11/34A) --- "Calculator" style panel (like an 8/A) > 11/60 --- "Calculator" style panel. I've put OEM machines, and machines that are otherwise identical, or nearly so in parens. The '45 and '50 panels are the same except for the number, while the '55 panel is painted completely differently. The same goes for the '70 versus '74 panels: Same indicators and everything, just completely different paint job. The panel on the '74 is almost exactly like a standard '70 panel, just its in "blue" (i.e. like the DECdatasystem-570 that Dave McGuire owns). Compare: 11/74: 11/70: The only other major difference between the '70 and '74 panels is that the '74 uses the "chiclet" switches as on the '05/'10 instead of the "normal" triangular plastic ones you find on a standard '70. There's also different coloured versions for many of the panels too. E.g. there's a brown-and-white '70 panel used in OEM typesetting systems by CSI Systems (if I recall right). There's a blue-and-red '40 panel sold by DEC in their "INDUSTRIAL-11" version. A photo exists showing an 11/20 and an 8/e in "labratory" green (i.e. the LAB-8/e colour scheme). With regards to the 11/74, last I heard there were no machines extant. Apparently there's an 11/74 panel plexiglass "floating around", but I don't recall who owns it. As an aside thought: I'd love to see a "blue" 11/70 or an 11/74 panel running with either blue LEDs or white LEDs. That would probably look very nice? hopefully Rob will do a one of those panels because that sounds like a fun project. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Aug 13 09:23:37 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 15:23:37 +0100 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <20160813120718.A15A018C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 13/08/2016 14:20, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 13 August 2016 at 08:07, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> I can't recall any other models with front panels? (Well, the /74, but IIRC >> there are none of those extant outside museums - although people might want >> some for simulators.) >> > The whole list of PDP-11 models with any sort of front panel beyond > just an on/off switch is: >> 11/20 (11/15) >> 11/05 (11/10) >> 11/40 (11/35) >> 11/45 (11/50, 11/55) >> 11/70 (11/74) >> 11/34 (11/04, 11/34A) --- "Calculator" style panel (like an 8/A) >> 11/60 --- "Calculator" style panel. > I've put OEM machines, and machines that are otherwise identical, or > nearly so in parens. The '45 and '50 panels are the same except for > the number, while the '55 panel is painted completely differently. The > same goes for the '70 versus '74 panels: Same indicators and > everything, just completely different paint job. > > The panel on the '74 is almost exactly like a standard '70 panel, just > its in "blue" (i.e. like the DECdatasystem-570 that Dave McGuire > owns). Compare: > 11/74: > 11/70: > The only other major difference between the '70 and '74 panels is that > the '74 uses the "chiclet" switches as on the '05/'10 instead of the > "normal" triangular plastic ones you find on a standard '70. > > There's also different coloured versions for many of the panels too. > E.g. there's a brown-and-white '70 panel used in OEM typesetting > systems by CSI Systems (if I recall right). There's a blue-and-red '40 > panel sold by DEC in their "INDUSTRIAL-11" version. A photo exists > showing an 11/20 and an 8/e in "labratory" green (i.e. the LAB-8/e > colour scheme). > > > With regards to the 11/74, last I heard there were no machines extant. > Apparently there's an 11/74 panel plexiglass "floating around", but I > don't recall who owns it. > > > As an aside thought: I'd love to see a "blue" 11/70 or an 11/74 panel > running with either blue LEDs or white LEDs. That would probably look > very nice? hopefully Rob will do a one of those panels because that > sounds like a fun project. > > > Cheers, > Christian > > Thank you very much that's a mine of information. Most Helpful Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Aug 13 09:29:02 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 15:29:02 +0100 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20160813120718.A15A018C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160813120718.A15A018C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 13/08/2016 13:07, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > Please register interest in ... PDP-11 panels > > It will depend on price - will they be the same as the PDP-8 panels (since > they are so similar)? If so, can you remind us of the pricing, please? If > not, any estimate? > > I assume you'll eventually be doing all of them (/35, /40, /45, /50, /55, /70 > - both variants), but the order will depend on interest? Do you have a /20 > panel scan/measurements, to do that one too? If there is any interest in > /05-/10 panels, I have one and can scan it. > > I can't recall any other models with front panels? (Well, the /74, but IIRC > there are none of those extant outside museums - although people might want > some for simulators.) > > Noel Yes the same for PDP-11 front panels as PDP-8 $150 per panel $20 shipping to US. For stock panels Large, one off and custom panels please ask me. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Aug 13 04:37:09 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 11:37:09 +0200 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <57ADE82B.6040202@gmail.com> References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> <57ADE82B.6040202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e701d1f546$43f94320$cbebc960$@xs4all.nl> For what it's worth a small warning about the HP 9825 series computers. The power supply doesn't have a crowbar(over voltage protection), so a transistor failure in the Psu can be catastrophic. On the other hand the two 9835's I have, which uses the same form factor and almost the same power supply layout are HP modified with crowbars added. It seems to be good practice to add some ov-protection to the HP 9825 supply because the switching transistor and 723 voltage regulators don't have the eternal life. And there no certain prediction in how they fail, short or open circuit, I found out the hard way several years ago. -Rik From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 05:15:13 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 03:15:13 -0700 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <00e701d1f546$43f94320$cbebc960$@xs4all.nl> References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> <57ADE82B.6040202@gmail.com> <00e701d1f546$43f94320$cbebc960$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <581859A2-D99F-4B99-A48C-BB46479C210F@gmail.com> Thanks for the info. Any schematics of the modification? Marc > On Aug 13, 2016, at 2:37 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > For what it's worth a small warning about the HP 9825 series computers. > The power supply doesn't have a crowbar(over voltage protection), so a > transistor failure in the Psu can be catastrophic. > On the other hand the two 9835's I have, which uses the same form factor and > almost the same power supply layout are HP modified with crowbars added. > It seems to be good practice to add some ov-protection to the HP 9825 supply > because the switching transistor and 723 voltage regulators don't have the > eternal life. > And there no certain prediction in how they fail, short or open circuit, I > found out the hard way several years ago. > > -Rik > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 11:59:40 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 09:59:40 -0700 Subject: Intel SDK-85 monitor ROM In-Reply-To: <0306C2A6-8AAB-4D08-898F-9111283403BF@pobox.com> References: <532fd1fd-d719-fee6-3f6b-73b5d25eb0c0@kaput.homeunix.org> <0306C2A6-8AAB-4D08-898F-9111283403BF@pobox.com> Message-ID: I sent him a private email with a binary dump of the 8355 from my SDK-85. It shouldn't be hard to find an Intel 8755 EPROM version of the 8355 ROM version. Then you just need to find someone to program it if you can't program it yourself. I can program 8755 parts, but postage to Australia might not be cheap. -Glen On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 4:15 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I believe I can help with this. Although I do not have a spare device, I do have the binary as Intel hex as I had the same device fail on my SDK-85 and went through the exercise replacing it. I'll report back off list once I dig up the file. > > Chris > > > On August 13, 2016 3:07:06 AM CDT, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: >>Hi List, >> >>I've started looking at my SDK-85 after having it on the shelf for >>years. I know the 8355 mask ROM on it isn't working but I haven't been >>able to find a suitable replacement. I wired up a temporary solution >>with a 2716 EPROM only to find the ROM image and source code aren't >>available outside of dead-tree format. I'm not about ready to type out >>48 pages of source code. Does anyone have a digital copy of the source, >>or the assembled binary or, even better, a replacement ROM? >> >>(I'm in Adelaide, Australia.) >> >>Cheers, >> >>Alexis. > > -- > Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Sat Aug 13 12:10:50 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 12:10:50 -0500 Subject: Intel SDK-85 monitor ROM In-Reply-To: References: <532fd1fd-d719-fee6-3f6b-73b5d25eb0c0@kaput.homeunix.org> <0306C2A6-8AAB-4D08-898F-9111283403BF@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20160813171050.GG5474@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (08/13/2016 at 09:59AM -0700), Glen Slick wrote: > I sent him a private email with a binary dump of the 8355 from my SDK-85. > > It shouldn't be hard to find an Intel 8755 EPROM version of the 8355 > ROM version. Then you just need to find someone to program it if you > can't program it yourself. I can program 8755 parts, but postage to > Australia might not be cheap. And I did same. So, he's potentially got two versions ;-) I did fix mine with an 8755. The failure mode of the 8355 was intermittent. I was able to keep it running by pressing on it and hitting it with freeze spray. I kept it alive long enough to run a little dump routine which sent the ROM contents out the serial port where I captured it. I then turned this into Intel hex and used that to program a new 8755 which replaced the 8355. Chris > On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 4:15 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > I believe I can help with this. Although I do not have a spare device, I do have the binary as Intel hex as I had the same device fail on my SDK-85 and went through the exercise replacing it. I'll report back off list once I dig up the file. > > > > Chris > > > > > > On August 13, 2016 3:07:06 AM CDT, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: > >>Hi List, > >> > >>I've started looking at my SDK-85 after having it on the shelf for > >>years. I know the 8355 mask ROM on it isn't working but I haven't been > >>able to find a suitable replacement. I wired up a temporary solution > >>with a 2716 EPROM only to find the ROM image and source code aren't > >>available outside of dead-tree format. I'm not about ready to type out > >>48 pages of source code. Does anyone have a digital copy of the source, > >>or the assembled binary or, even better, a replacement ROM? > >> > >>(I'm in Adelaide, Australia.) > >> > >>Cheers, > >> > >>Alexis. > > > > -- > > Chris Elmquist -- Chris Elmquist From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sat Aug 13 11:51:38 2016 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 18:51:38 +0200 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <00e701d1f546$43f94320$cbebc960$@xs4all.nl> References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> <57ADE82B.6040202@gmail.com> <00e701d1f546$43f94320$cbebc960$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 13.08.2016 11:37, Rik Bos wrote: > > For what it's worth a small warning about the HP 9825 series computers. > The power supply doesn't have a crowbar(over voltage protection), so a > transistor failure in the Psu can be catastrophic. > On the other hand the two 9835's I have, which uses the same form factor and > almost the same power supply layout are HP modified with crowbars added. > It seems to be good practice to add some ov-protection to the HP 9825 supply > because the switching transistor and 723 voltage regulators don't have the > eternal life. > And there no certain prediction in how they fail, short or open circuit, I > found out the hard way several years ago. > > -Rik > > The same is true of the PDP8/L. I also found out the hard way.... That L is still not running, but the PS now has a crowbar ! Jos From north at alum.mit.edu Sat Aug 13 13:32:19 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 11:32:19 -0700 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <20160813120718.A15A018C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 8/13/2016 6:20 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 13 August 2016 at 08:07, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> I can't recall any other models with front panels? (Well, the /74, but IIRC >> there are none of those extant outside museums - although people might want >> some for simulators.) >> > The whole list of PDP-11 models with any sort of front panel beyond > just an on/off switch is: >> 11/20 (11/15) >> 11/05 (11/10) >> 11/40 (11/35) >> 11/45 (11/50, 11/55) >> 11/70 (11/74) >> 11/34 (11/04, 11/34A) --- "Calculator" style panel (like an 8/A) >> 11/60 --- "Calculator" style panel. > I've put OEM machines, and machines that are otherwise identical, or > nearly so in parens. The '45 and '50 panels are the same except for > the number, while the '55 panel is painted completely differently. The > same goes for the '70 versus '74 panels: Same indicators and > everything, just completely different paint job. > > The panel on the '74 is almost exactly like a standard '70 panel, just > its in "blue" (i.e. like the DECdatasystem-570 that Dave McGuire > owns). Compare: > 11/74: > 11/70: > The only other major difference between the '70 and '74 panels is that > the '74 uses the "chiclet" switches as on the '05/'10 instead of the > "normal" triangular plastic ones you find on a standard '70. > > There's also different coloured versions for many of the panels too. > E.g. there's a brown-and-white '70 panel used in OEM typesetting > systems by CSI Systems (if I recall right). There's a blue-and-red '40 > panel sold by DEC in their "INDUSTRIAL-11" version. A photo exists > showing an 11/20 and an 8/e in "labratory" green (i.e. the LAB-8/e > colour scheme). > > > With regards to the 11/74, last I heard there were no machines extant. > Apparently there's an 11/74 panel plexiglass "floating around", but I > don't recall who owns it. Like this maybe: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg This is a 'true' 11/74 panel from the never-production variation of the 11/74, with CIS. Not just a relabeled/recolored 11/70 panel. Note the additional LEDs on the right hand side. AFAIK no front panel exists that mates with this plexiglass. I also have a complete DEC DataSystem-570 panel (frame, plex, switches) which is just a standard 11/70 panel, but recolored in light blue / dark blue / gray color scheme. Don > > As an aside thought: I'd love to see a "blue" 11/70 or an 11/74 panel > running with either blue LEDs or white LEDs. That would probably look > very nice? hopefully Rob will do a one of those panels because that > sounds like a fun project. > > > Cheers, > Christian > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Aug 13 13:43:21 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 19:43:21 +0100 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <20160813120718.A15A018C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2d920478-5bd6-5db2-a42a-08bec8b728c0@btinternet.com> On 13/08/2016 19:32, Don North wrote: > On 8/13/2016 6:20 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> On 13 August 2016 at 08:07, Noel Chiappa >> wrote: >>> I can't recall any other models with front panels? (Well, the /74, >>> but IIRC >>> there are none of those extant outside museums - although people >>> might want >>> some for simulators.) >>> >> The whole list of PDP-11 models with any sort of front panel beyond >> just an on/off switch is: >>> 11/20 (11/15) >>> 11/05 (11/10) >>> 11/40 (11/35) >>> 11/45 (11/50, 11/55) >>> 11/70 (11/74) >>> 11/34 (11/04, 11/34A) --- "Calculator" style panel (like an 8/A) >>> 11/60 --- "Calculator" style panel. >> I've put OEM machines, and machines that are otherwise identical, or >> nearly so in parens. The '45 and '50 panels are the same except for >> the number, while the '55 panel is painted completely differently. The >> same goes for the '70 versus '74 panels: Same indicators and >> everything, just completely different paint job. >> >> The panel on the '74 is almost exactly like a standard '70 panel, just >> its in "blue" (i.e. like the DECdatasystem-570 that Dave McGuire >> owns). Compare: >> 11/74: >> >> 11/70: >> The only other major difference between the '70 and '74 panels is that >> the '74 uses the "chiclet" switches as on the '05/'10 instead of the >> "normal" triangular plastic ones you find on a standard '70. >> >> There's also different coloured versions for many of the panels too. >> E.g. there's a brown-and-white '70 panel used in OEM typesetting >> systems by CSI Systems (if I recall right). There's a blue-and-red '40 >> panel sold by DEC in their "INDUSTRIAL-11" version. A photo exists >> showing an 11/20 and an 8/e in "labratory" green (i.e. the LAB-8/e >> colour scheme). >> >> >> With regards to the 11/74, last I heard there were no machines extant. >> Apparently there's an 11/74 panel plexiglass "floating around", but I >> don't recall who owns it. > > Like this maybe: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg > > This is a 'true' 11/74 panel from the never-production variation of > the 11/74, with CIS. > Not just a relabeled/recolored 11/70 panel. Note the additional LEDs > on the right hand side. > AFAIK no front panel exists that mates with this plexiglass. > > I also have a complete DEC DataSystem-570 panel (frame, plex, > switches) which is just > a standard 11/70 panel, but recolored in light blue / dark blue / > gray color scheme. > > Don > >> >> As an aside thought: I'd love to see a "blue" 11/70 or an 11/74 panel >> running with either blue LEDs or white LEDs. That would probably look >> very nice? hopefully Rob will do a one of those panels because that >> sounds like a fun project. >> >> >> Cheers, >> Christian >> >> > Thank you all very much. I'm collating all of this most useful data. Regards Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 15:43:08 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 16:43:08 -0400 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <20160813120718.A15A018C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 13 August 2016 at 14:32, Don North wrote: > Like this maybe: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg > Yes, exactly that one! Based on the rest of your e-mail I'm guessing it's yours, right? Any chance you could get a higher res scan of it? > This is a 'true' 11/74 panel from the never-production variation of the > 11/74, with CIS. > Not just a relabeled/recolored 11/70 panel. Note the additional LEDs on the > right hand side. > AFAIK no front panel exists that mates with this plexiglass. > Yeah, I can see that your panel is different from the other 11/74 panel. The 11/74 panel I linked was one of the four CPUs (CPU C as the green sticker shows, and giant painted "C" indicates) of DEC's DAEMON system (apparently it might also have been called PHEANX?) quad processor setup. More pictures here for people to oggle and drool over: It looks like your 11/74 panel might have been designed for a mounting similar to the other 11/74 (we'll call it DAEMON-type) panel mounting (same visual style and colour scheme) which is distinctly different from the standard 11/70 mounting (though the DAEMON panels all follow the same general layout as an 11/70), though the actual mating PCB would have been different, since the keylock and parity lights have swapped places and the display indicator LEDs have been re-arranged. > I also have a complete DEC DataSystem-570 panel (frame, plex, switches) > which is just > a standard 11/70 panel, but recolored in light blue / dark blue / gray > color scheme. > This might or might not be blasphemous to some, but I think the DDS-570 colour scheme looks much nicer than the standard PDP-11 colour scheme. Hmm, now I'm wondering how close of a match the "business system" blue PDP-11/7x models match up against DEC's other blue coloured systems; i.e. KL10s of the DECsystem-10xx flavour, PDP-15s, and the alternate blue-coloured PDP-12 (). Actually speaking of the KL10, I forgot about the fact it's front-end processor was a PDP-11/40 with an alternate colour scheme panel. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From sales at elecplus.com Sat Aug 13 17:07:30 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 17:07:30 -0500 Subject: Atlanta warehouse Message-ID: <04f801d1f5af$16f3bf90$44db3eb0$@com> I can see that one day's notice did not do much good. I am sorry, but Atlanta is over 1500 miles from home for me, and I usually do not get much notice. Next time I will try to give at least a week notice. There can be absolutely no viewing on the weekends. That is out of the question for him. It is MUCH easier for him if I am there when people want to come and scrounge. He is so busy, and his warehouse manager is usually tied up with orders, and for safety reasons they can't just turn people loose. I am usually there every couple of months. Now that we have established that people will be allowed to come and choose things, he is having the warehouse guys sort things into categories. Things he wants to keep, and those he is willing to part with. Right now they are scrapping all the HP 700/96, and the Wyse 60s. I asked him to hold onto a dozen or so working Wyse 60s with keyboards for about 30 days. He will ship them. Tested and working with complete tested keyboard he wants $80 per set plus shipping. The Teletype keyboard and the small keyboard have been sold. The Lear terminal and the Burroughs are for sale, but not cheap. The Lear has been repaired and is working. The Burroughs keyboard he wants $250 for. He did not specify a price for the Lear, but you can always make a good offer. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 500 Pershing Ave. Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls From sales at elecplus.com Sat Aug 13 17:13:03 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 17:13:03 -0500 Subject: Atlanta Open House Tomorrow In-Reply-To: References: <000401d1f35e$73bee220$5b3ca660$@classiccmp.org> <7c650aa8-b273-2bc7-39b8-069e6702abcf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <04fd01d1f5af$dcd00fc0$96702f40$@com> There are a couple of 56K-xxx AT&T keyboards there, but I counted, and there are only 6 wires in the female connector. There is not a fixed cable. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 8:25 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Atlanta Open House Tomorrow On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > If anyone goes there would you PLEASE look for a Qume 201 and > Televideo 965 keyboard for me Likewise, I'm looking for a couple of AT&T/Teletype keyboards for my 5620/Blit and my 730+. They do _not_ have a round DIN plug, which distinguishes them from 98% of what's out there. They have an 8p8c connector ("RJ-45"). There are several matching keyboards with different numbers of keys (~98-103). 56K-341-AAN is one part number. Keyboards that will work are the same ones used on the AT&T 4410 and Teletype 5410 terminal. I'm also seeing part numbers in the technical drawings (http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/att/5620/att5620_eng.pdf pp 87-95) like: 56K224 56K229 56K230 410896 410967 It appears to have 6 of the 8 pins in use - serial in, serial out, +5V, -12V, signal GND, and frame GND (it makes its own -5V for the MCU from a zener diode on the -12V line). All of this plus the 1.8432MHz crystal, suggest to me a simple async protocol. This would make a keyboard emulator simple to construct once someone has sniffed the protocol. One is good. Two is better. Thanks, -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Sat Aug 13 17:14:56 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 17:14:56 -0500 Subject: Atlanta Open House Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <7c650aa8-b273-2bc7-39b8-069e6702abcf@bitsavers.org> References: <000401d1f35e$73bee220$5b3ca660$@classiccmp.org> <7c650aa8-b273-2bc7-39b8-069e6702abcf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <04fe01d1f5b0$1ff95c20$5fec1460$@com> There are a couple of Qume keyboards there, but I don't know the PN you need. There is also a Televideo 965 terminal and keyboard. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 7:16 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Atlanta Open House Tomorrow If anyone goes there would you PLEASE look for a Qume 201 and Televideo 965 keyboard for me On 8/10/16 4:25 PM, Jay West wrote: > I'm reposting this because I set the time on the classiccmp server > incorrectly (forgot to add 12). Just in case the important post below > showed up earlier in folks inbox, I wanted to make sure it showed up. > > > > I'm posting this on behalf of Cindy at Elecplus > > > > I can't post to cctalk when I am away from home. I am in Atlanta, and > the owner of the warehouse hs agreed to let people come in tomorrow. > Please can you post the following for me? > > > > First come first served, no shipping on the really cheap items. Model > M > 101/103 terminal keyboards $10 each, no cracked cases, may not have > complete caps. Hundreds of keyboards for other terminals starting at > $30 each, tested and complete. A full pallet of AEK 1 and 2 keyboards > > > > More expensive items include a Burroughs keyboard, complete and in > good condition, a 1978 terminal in working condition, and the > following terminals/keyboards, tested, no screen burn, keyboards are > complete. DEC > VT100 (no keyboards), 220, 320, 420.Wyse 50 and 60 with keyboards. > Qume 62 and 101+ with keyboards.Link MC2 and 3 with keyboards. ADDS > 4000 with keyboards. HP 700/22, 700/43, 700/60, 700/90, 700/92, > 700/94, 700/96 with keyboards. > > > > LOTS of working vintage test equip. Some pics are here: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKbkEwdmlST2lKaUU > > > > Thank you! > > > > Cindy > > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Aug 13 18:09:26 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 19:09:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 Message-ID: <20160813230926.60D5D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > There's also different coloured versions for many of the panels too. > ... There's a blue-and-red '40 panel sold by DEC in their > "INDUSTRIAL-11" version. Also for the /70; I announced a couple of weeks back that I'd added a scan of one to my PDP-11 stuff page: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html > From: Don North north at alum.mit.edu > I also have a complete DEC DataSystem-570 panel ... which is just a > standard 11/70 panel, but recolored in light blue / dark blue / gray > color scheme. One of those on that page, too. (Well, the plexiglass part. :-) > From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > This might or might not be blasphemous to some, but I think the DDS-570 > colour scheme looks much nicer than the standard PDP-11 colour scheme. I like them both... :-) > I'm wondering how close of a match the "business system" blue PDP-11/7x > models match up against DEC's other blue coloured systems; i.e. KL10s > of the DECsystem-10xx flavour They are different; the 570 includes a deep blue (a royal/Prussian kind of blue), and on the KL10 both are lighter. > it's front-end processor was a PDP-11/40 with an alternate colour > scheme panel Actually, that is the only 'front panel' (lights and switches) on the KL10; the KL10 CPU itself doesn't have one (unlike the KA10 and KI10). Noel From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 18:55:23 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 16:55:23 -0700 Subject: Kermit version compatibility. Message-ID: Multics 12.6 has a Kermit program; the history log in the source indicate that it written circa 1984 and last modified circa 1990. My local host runs CKermit 9.0, circa 2015. They do not play nice; some Kermit protocol change is causing high packet retry rates, timeouts and sometimes complete confusion. Going back through the CKermit source archives, I find that once I can get CKermit 5 to build, it works like a champ. That isn't a good solution; for e.g. getting V5 to work under OS/X would probably be a big issue. CKermit has a ton of SET options; rather then trying them randomly to see if I can make it compatible, I thought I'd inquire if anyone had the misfortune to be so well versed in Kermit arcana that they would know what settings would get CKermit V9 to behave like V5, or at least some ideas on the best route to pursue. Thanks, -- Charles From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 19:02:27 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 18:02:27 -0600 Subject: Intel SDK-85 monitor ROM In-Reply-To: <20160813171050.GG5474@n0jcf.net> References: <532fd1fd-d719-fee6-3f6b-73b5d25eb0c0@kaput.homeunix.org> <0306C2A6-8AAB-4D08-898F-9111283403BF@pobox.com> <20160813171050.GG5474@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I'd like a copy of the SDK-85 ROM also. Those using an SDK-85 should be aware that there are at least two different released monitor ROM versions, versions 1.2 and 2.1. The RAM usage of the two is different! I wrote a program based on the manual for one ROM version, and discovered that it wouldn't work on the other, because the interrupts are vectored through different RAM locations. In the later version, the vectors were moved to addresses six bytes lower than in the earlier version, apparently to make an additional six bytes of stack space available. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat Aug 13 19:34:15 2016 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 10:04:15 +0930 Subject: Intel SDK-85 monitor ROM In-Reply-To: <0306C2A6-8AAB-4D08-898F-9111283403BF@pobox.com> References: <532fd1fd-d719-fee6-3f6b-73b5d25eb0c0@kaput.homeunix.org> <0306C2A6-8AAB-4D08-898F-9111283403BF@pobox.com> Message-ID: <3b81cfdb-fc07-82a7-5fb8-7bb4d383a21f@kaput.homeunix.org> On 13/08/2016 20:45, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I believe I can help with this. Although I do not have a spare > device, I do have the binary as Intel hex as I had the same device > fail on my SDK-85 and went through the exercise replacing it. I'll > report back off list once I dig up the file. > > Chris Thanks for that. The ROM does the same thing! Ugh. What happens is the display shows "8 0 ? ?" where '?' is an unknown pattern. My reasoning behind it was it managed to output '80' then crashed when it went to print '85'. Maybe the keyboard controller isn't working. Alternatively the RAM might be bad. Bah. At least I can use my original ROM, maybe. I wired up a 2732 on the prototype area to test the ROM. I don't have a programmer for the 8755, but at least I'll be able to write and run a few tests on it to track down the faulty component. Cheers, Alexis. From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 20:43:15 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 18:43:15 -0700 Subject: For trade: beautiful Data General Nova 820 w/ Diablo Drive & controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the mails and interest- a few details: No, I am not interested in selling. Trades only please, sorry. :( No, I am not interested in 90s workstation hardware- really looking for Symbolics hardware, which is my specialty, or other uncommon 80s workstation hardware. Thanks! - Ian On Friday, August 12, 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > I picked this early DG machine up and although it's awesome and complete, > I just don't think I'll get to restoring it. > > I'd like to trade for anything Symbolics, or potentially other very early > graphical workstation hardware (PERQ, 68K SGI, etc.) > > Located in Seattle, but I am no stranger to freight. > > This is an early DG jumbo chassis with everything you need, tons of core, > and the removable pack drive. > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 13 22:09:17 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 21:09:17 -0600 Subject: R: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> Message-ID: <5e7f16fe-fcff-4564-9830-540ca63b4747@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/12/2016 9:15 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: >> It was not enough to have mishandled vms, and killed palm. Now they >> want to destroy also what's left of SGI ? >> Better I don't say what I'm really thinking... > > "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for men of good conscience to > remain silent." > > > Apollo, DEC, Compaq, Ericsson, Palm, . . . > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Hewlett-Packard > > > If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers? HP-BOX now runs all the games and windows* too. Ben. * Game of upgrading every 9 months. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 23:24:55 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 00:24:55 -0400 Subject: For trade: beautiful Data General Nova 820 w/ Diablo Drive & controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: alright, best of luck in the symbolics hardware search. --Devin On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 9:43 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Thanks for the mails and interest- a few details: > > No, I am not interested in selling. Trades only please, sorry. :( > > No, I am not interested in 90s workstation hardware- really looking for > Symbolics hardware, which is my specialty, or other uncommon 80s > workstation hardware. > > Thanks! > > - Ian > > On Friday, August 12, 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > > > I picked this early DG machine up and although it's awesome and complete, > > I just don't think I'll get to restoring it. > > > > I'd like to trade for anything Symbolics, or potentially other very early > > graphical workstation hardware (PERQ, 68K SGI, etc.) > > > > Located in Seattle, but I am no stranger to freight. > > > > This is an early DG jumbo chassis with everything you need, tons of core, > > and the removable pack drive. > > > > Cheers, > > > > - Ian > > > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > (206) 395-MIPS > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Aug 13 15:19:42 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 22:19:42 +0200 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <581859A2-D99F-4B99-A48C-BB46479C210F@gmail.com> References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> <57ADE82B.6040202@gmail.com> <00e701d1f546$43f94320$cbebc960$@xs4all.nl> <581859A2-D99F-4B99-A48C-BB46479C210F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301d1f5a0$0799d6b0$16cd8410$@xs4all.nl> Marc, Building a crowbar is easy, just take a Zener a little higher than the psu voltage eg 5.2V for 5V rail put a resistor of 1k in series take a Thyristor big enough to take about 150% of the schort current and connect it to the zener through a small resistor. I suppose you can do the math ;) Be sure to put a crowbar on both the +12V and +5V and you could consider one on the -12V rail but that voltage doesn't have a pass transistor but a 320K voltage regulator which has a reasonable protection for over voltage. The -5V is connected to the -12V through a zener. Tony reverse engineered the schematics, you can download them a the HP Museum website or become a member of the HPCC and order the CD with all Tony's diagrams (a lot of eexcellent work). -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens > curiousmarc3 at gmail.com > Verzonden: zaterdag 13 augustus 2016 12:15 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 > > Thanks for the info. Any schematics of the modification? > Marc > > > > On Aug 13, 2016, at 2:37 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > > > For what it's worth a small warning about the HP 9825 series computers. > > The power supply doesn't have a crowbar(over voltage protection), so a > > transistor failure in the Psu can be catastrophic. > > On the other hand the two 9835's I have, which uses the same form > > factor and almost the same power supply layout are HP modified with > crowbars added. > > It seems to be good practice to add some ov-protection to the HP 9825 > > supply because the switching transistor and 723 voltage regulators > > don't have the eternal life. > > And there no certain prediction in how they fail, short or open > > circuit, I found out the hard way several years ago. > > > > -Rik > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Aug 13 14:14:42 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 20:14:42 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VAX file format conversion In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 12 Aug 2016 23:13:40 -0400" <20160813031349.E51D62073C36@huey.classiccmp.org> References: Message-ID: <01Q3PP5UNRG80000G4@beyondthepale.ie> > > If you are importing files into VMS, you need to become familiar with the > EXCHANGE command. > (found via Google) > http://h20565.www2.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c04623262 > It can do stream and carriage control conversions on various RMS fixed formats. > I was a bit puzzled by this. I thought the main use of EXCHANGE was to to copy files to or from disk or tape volumes which are not in a native VMS format but are in a format native to some other DEC operating system. (The url doesn't work for me - I get: "Hewlett Packard Enterprise Support Center The service or information you requested is not available at this time. Please try again later.") > > When we first brought up DECnet-DOS network file transfer, we had > some "discussions" with the VMS RMS > engineers that didn't like us doing auto conversions. This was their > "compromise". > I had a look at the online help for EXCHANGE on VMS and it looks like you are probably referring to using EXCHANGE with the /NETWORK qualifier. I can see how something like that would be needed in the case of DECnet-DOS because there is no direct mapping that can be assumed between the types of files you get on DOS and the types of files you get on VMS which will work for every purpose in every case. My guess is that you felt you could come with an automatic conversion process that worked almost all of the time but the VMS people weren't happy with that? EXCHANGE /NETWORK does look like a bit of a kludge which could have been made more user friendly but I find it hard to see how something like it could be avoided altogether given the differences between the two filesystems. I have managed to get though a couple of decades of use of VMS without ever having to resort to EXCHANGE /NETWORK, getting by instead using the abilities of various file transfer utilites, archiving products and networking packages to allow the user to specify either "text" or "binary" files and in rare cases, making adjustments with SET FILE /ATTRIBUTES or even more rarely, CONVERT. > > Oh and if you are doing serial transfers, yes, keeping the baud rate > low is a good strategy. > I had to spend some time working on the DECnet-DOS DDCMP driver > developing better character overrun recovery strategies. Yes, you may > be coming in via a terminal line, but that line can hiccup from time to time. > Additionally, I would suggest using any terminal line other than the console line (OPA0:) to do any sort of serial file transfers, even for cutting and pasting groups of lines into a terminal emulator running in a window on some other system. It is very easy to overrun the console and to end up getting it hung requiring a reboot or even a poweroff to clear it. I suspect there is no flow control at all on the console terminal line and error recover is poorer than on ordinary terminal lines. If you can only log in on the console due to lack of licensing, I would suggest manually typing in just the VAX-VMS hobbyist license (and maybe a license for a networking product) on the console, then logging on using another terminal or over the network to transfer the other licenses. If you can't avoid cutting and pasting into a terminal emulator attached to the console line, do no more than groups of one or two lines at a time. > Dave. > > On 8/12/2016 01:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:08:39 -0400 > >From: Douglas Taylor > >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >Subject: VAX file format conversion > >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > >I have a MicroVax 4000 that I am trying to update the license PAKs on, > >the last time I had valid PAKs on this machine was in 2002 (Hobbyist > >Licenses). > > > >I registered and have received the new Hobbyist License PAKs. > > > >I connected a laptop and transferred the text file using C-Kermit on the > >VAX and hyperterminal on the laptop. > > > >When I go to execute the file, I get an error: > > > >$@hobbyist-use-only-va.txt > > > >%RMS-W-RTB 512 bye record to large for user buffer > > > >It appears that when the file was transferred it showed up on the vax > >with fixed length records of 512 bytes, not variable length. > > > >Can I convert the file on the VAX? > > Possibly but what you need to do depends on how exactly the file contents ended up and what the file attributes are. My guess would be something like: $ SET FILE /ATTRIBUTES=(RFM=STM,RAT=CR) filename This assumes that the file contents are text with a CR and LF at the end of each line and it can be made legible to VMS by changing the file attributes from fixed length 512 byte records with no carriage control to stream format records with CR-LF record terminations and carriage return carriage control. (This command only works on versions of VMS later than about 6.something. If you have a very old version of VAX/VMS like V5.5-2, it is not available) > > > >Is there a setting for C-Kermit that I need to change? > > At a guess, you probably need something like "SET FILE TYPE TEXT" but I would have thought text would have been the default. Maybe you have a CKERMIT.INI or other kermit initialisation file containing: "SET FILE TYPE BINARY" ? > > > >Is Hyperterminal screwing things up? > > Hyperterminal and/or any of the so-called VT100 emulators bundled with Windows are of little use to connect to anything that makes more than the simplest use of a VT100 terminal or later generations of same. It will work ok for entering line mode commands but if you start up an editor or another fullscreen application of moderate complexity, it will fail spectacularly and leave you with a garbled mess on the screen. The problem is that Hyperterminal et al do not implement scrolling regions correctly or maybe at all. If Hyperterminal purports to provide kermit file transfer, there may be an option somewhere to specify text rather than binary file transfer or it may be that this is not required at that end. > >Doug > Regards, Peter Coghlan. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 17:19:02 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 19:19:02 -0300 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <00e701d1f546$43f94320$cbebc960$@xs4all.nl> References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> <57ADE82B.6040202@gmail.com> <00e701d1f546$43f94320$cbebc960$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <57AF9CD6.8070300@gmail.com> I wonder if the crowbars might have been a later revision of of the power supply. After the accident with my 9835A I had to completely rebuild the +12V regulator both the 723 and the pass transistor as well as a few passive components. I did not see any evidence of crowbars, and the power supply in my 9835A seems to match the diagram in the 9835 service guide. If I was to add crowbars to this power supply I would be temped to monitor the voltages and crowbar the raw DC when an overvoltage is detected, in my case it was the -20V raw that did all of the damage. Paul. On 2016-08-13 6:37 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > For what it's worth a small warning about the HP 9825 series computers. > The power supply doesn't have a crowbar(over voltage protection), so a > transistor failure in the Psu can be catastrophic. > On the other hand the two 9835's I have, which uses the same form factor and > almost the same power supply layout are HP modified with crowbars added. > It seems to be good practice to add some ov-protection to the HP 9825 supply > because the switching transistor and 723 voltage regulators don't have the > eternal life. > And there no certain prediction in how they fail, short or open circuit, I > found out the hard way several years ago. > > -Rik > From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 00:57:28 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 22:57:28 -0700 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <03b5c893-6b6f-258a-572a-440884460604@btinternet.com> References: <03b5c893-6b6f-258a-572a-440884460604@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Registering interest for 11/40! Also, one comment after playing with my panels... We should laquer the back of them to prevent the black back-coating from scratching off... On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Rod Smallwood < rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > Hi Guys > > Well my panels made to VCF. I have had some feedback and I > expect more. > > Currently I have stock of PDP-8/e (Types A and B) , PDP-8/f and PDP-8/m. > > PDP-8/i should be out of manufacturing by now. Next up is PDP-8/L. > > -++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Order the above now ++++++++++++++++++ > > Due to our house remodeling and holidays at the silk screen studio it was > quiet up until this week.. > > However now things have started up again. I'm about to revisit the PDP-8 > bezel project. > > The prototype had a few issues but nothing major. I should have a painted > example shortly. > > Once the PDP-8/L batch are safely in the stock room it will be time to > start on PDP-11 panels. > > +++++++++++++++++++++++ Please register interest in bezels and PDP-11 > panels ++++++++++++++++ > > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > > > > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From kirkbdavis at me.com Sun Aug 14 01:01:54 2016 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 23:01:54 -0700 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <03b5c893-6b6f-258a-572a-440884460604@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <160CA30D-8A10-4A89-9626-78D2F583AA2B@me.com> Also registering interest in 11 panels also. 11/45 would be my first choice followed by ?70, ?40 & ?20 > On Aug 13, 2016, at 10:57 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > > Registering interest for 11/40! Also, one comment after playing with my > panels... > > We should laquer the back of them to prevent the black back-coating from > scratching off... > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Rod Smallwood < > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Hi Guys >> >> Well my panels made to VCF. I have had some feedback and I >> expect more. >> >> Currently I have stock of PDP-8/e (Types A and B) , PDP-8/f and PDP-8/m. >> >> PDP-8/i should be out of manufacturing by now. Next up is PDP-8/L. >> >> -++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Order the above now ++++++++++++++++++ >> >> Due to our house remodeling and holidays at the silk screen studio it was >> quiet up until this week.. >> >> However now things have started up again. I'm about to revisit the PDP-8 >> bezel project. >> >> The prototype had a few issues but nothing major. I should have a painted >> example shortly. >> >> Once the PDP-8/L batch are safely in the stock room it will be time to >> start on PDP-11 panels. >> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++ Please register interest in bezels and PDP-11 >> panels ++++++++++++++++ >> >> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Aug 14 02:05:47 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 08:05:47 +0100 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <03b5c893-6b6f-258a-572a-440884460604@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <17426bdd-5bab-791a-5abc-dc2fef56be38@btinternet.com> On 14/08/2016 06:57, Ian Finder wrote: > Registering interest for 11/40! Also, one comment after playing with my > panels... > > We should laquer the back of them to prevent the black back-coating from > scratching off... > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Rod Smallwood < > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Hi Guys >> >> Well my panels made to VCF. I have had some feedback and I >> expect more. >> >> Currently I have stock of PDP-8/e (Types A and B) , PDP-8/f and PDP-8/m. >> >> PDP-8/i should be out of manufacturing by now. Next up is PDP-8/L. >> >> -++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Order the above now ++++++++++++++++++ >> >> Due to our house remodeling and holidays at the silk screen studio it was >> quiet up until this week.. >> >> However now things have started up again. I'm about to revisit the PDP-8 >> bezel project. >> >> The prototype had a few issues but nothing major. I should have a painted >> example shortly. >> >> Once the PDP-8/L batch are safely in the stock room it will be time to >> start on PDP-11 panels. >> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++ Please register interest in bezels and PDP-11 >> panels ++++++++++++++++ >> >> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > All panels now have a new anti chip coating over the black on the black. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 02:16:09 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 00:16:09 -0700 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17426bdd-5bab-791a-5abc-dc2fef56be38@btinternet.com> References: <03b5c893-6b6f-258a-572a-440884460604@btinternet.com> <17426bdd-5bab-791a-5abc-dc2fef56be38@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Amazing! Thanks, Rod. You're really on top of this. On Sunday, August 14, 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 14/08/2016 06:57, Ian Finder wrote: > >> Registering interest for 11/40! Also, one comment after playing with my >> panels... >> >> We should laquer the back of them to prevent the black back-coating from >> scratching off... >> >> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Rod Smallwood < >> rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Guys >>> >>> Well my panels made to VCF. I have had some feedback >>> and I >>> expect more. >>> >>> Currently I have stock of PDP-8/e (Types A and B) , PDP-8/f and PDP-8/m. >>> >>> PDP-8/i should be out of manufacturing by now. Next up is PDP-8/L. >>> >>> -++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Order the above now ++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> Due to our house remodeling and holidays at the silk screen studio it was >>> quiet up until this week.. >>> >>> However now things have started up again. I'm about to revisit the PDP-8 >>> bezel project. >>> >>> The prototype had a few issues but nothing major. I should have a painted >>> example shortly. >>> >>> Once the PDP-8/L batch are safely in the stock room it will be time to >>> start on PDP-11 panels. >>> >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++ Please register interest in bezels and PDP-11 >>> panels ++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> All panels now have a new anti chip coating over the black on the black. >> > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 14 05:55:27 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 11:55:27 +0100 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow Message-ID: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> I have a Rainbow 100+ with a working hard disk. I want to image the disk before it fails and then emulate the Rainbow. The disk is an RD51 and appears to have 4 partitions on it. For imaging my first thought is to put the disk into a MicroVAX II, net boot the MicroVAX into VMS and do a BACKUP/PHYSICAL, copying the image to a SIMH tap file. There shouldn't be any issues with this I assume? Second, I would like to find an emulator for the Rainbow. I did a quick search of the web and it seems like MESS/MAME may be the only option. I have never used MESS/MAME, has anyone ever emulated the Rainbow successfully with this software? Regards Rob From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Aug 14 06:58:09 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 12:58:09 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 14 Aug 2016 11:55:27 +0100" <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01Q3QLGE6LR80000G4@beyondthepale.ie> > > I have a Rainbow 100+ with a working hard disk. I want to image the disk > before it fails and then emulate the Rainbow. The disk is an RD51 and > appears to have 4 partitions on it. > > For imaging my first thought is to put the disk into a MicroVAX II, net boot > the MicroVAX into VMS and do a BACKUP/PHYSICAL, copying the image to a SIMH > tap file. There shouldn't be any issues with this I assume? > I believe there are tools for dealing with BACKUP/IMAGE savesets on other platforms but I'm not sure whether they cope with savesets from BACKUP/PHYSICAL. You might have to restore the saveset using VMS running on SIMH onto an RD51 emulated by SIMH, assuming such a thing exists. From there, it should be easier to change it into an image suitable for another emulator if necessary. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 14 07:22:49 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 13:22:49 +0100 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00c801d1f626$924faba0$b6ef02e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 14 August 2016 11:55 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow > > I have a Rainbow 100+ with a working hard disk. I want to image the disk > before it fails and then emulate the Rainbow. The disk is an RD51 and > appears to have 4 partitions on it. > > > > For imaging my first thought is to put the disk into a MicroVAX II, net boot the > MicroVAX into VMS and do a BACKUP/PHYSICAL, copying the image to a > SIMH tap file. There shouldn't be any issues with this I assume? > Oh dear. VMS would not let me MOUNT/FOREIGN, it said: %MOUNT-F-FORMAT, invalid media format So I couldn't mount it to do the BACKUP/PHYSICAL. What options do I have to image this disk? Regards Rob From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 07:40:04 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 09:40:04 -0300 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00c801d1f626$924faba0$b6ef02e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <00c801d1f626$924faba0$b6ef02e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Linux, using dd? Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 14/08/2016 09:22, "Rob Jarratt" escreveu: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob > Jarratt > > Sent: 14 August 2016 11:55 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow > > > > I have a Rainbow 100+ with a working hard disk. I want to image the disk > > before it fails and then emulate the Rainbow. The disk is an RD51 and > > appears to have 4 partitions on it. > > > > > > > > For imaging my first thought is to put the disk into a MicroVAX II, net > boot the > > MicroVAX into VMS and do a BACKUP/PHYSICAL, copying the image to a > > SIMH tap file. There shouldn't be any issues with this I assume? > > > > Oh dear. VMS would not let me MOUNT/FOREIGN, it said: > > %MOUNT-F-FORMAT, invalid media format > > So I couldn't mount it to do the BACKUP/PHYSICAL. > > What options do I have to image this disk? > > Regards > > Rob > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 07:41:32 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 13:41:32 +0100 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00c801d1f626$924faba0$b6ef02e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <00c801d1f626$924faba0$b6ef02e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000701d1f629$300c4ea0$9024ebe0$@gmail.com> Looking at http://www.vaxarchive.org/hardware/mfm/index.html the RD51 is a 10Mb Seagate ST412 disk with a DEC label on it. I think you should therefore be able to image it with one of these:- http://www.vaxarchive.org/hardware/mfm/index.html Now I have two bare boards for these obtained at great expense because of the Royal Mail charging me ?8.00 (about $10.00) for collecting the VAT which just about doubled the cost. I also have a Beagle Board which is needed to run the thing, but I haven?t obtained any of the other parts needed to build them, and I am not going to get one built before (insert movable deadline)... ... perhaps we could get the bits an build one at Dec Legacy.. Assuming I get there.... Dave Wade EA7 KAE (& G4UGM) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 14 August 2016 13:23 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob > Jarratt > > Sent: 14 August 2016 11:55 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow > > > > I have a Rainbow 100+ with a working hard disk. I want to image the > > disk before it fails and then emulate the Rainbow. The disk is an RD51 > > and appears to have 4 partitions on it. > > > > > > > > For imaging my first thought is to put the disk into a MicroVAX II, > > net > boot the > > MicroVAX into VMS and do a BACKUP/PHYSICAL, copying the image to a > > SIMH tap file. There shouldn't be any issues with this I assume? > > > > Oh dear. VMS would not let me MOUNT/FOREIGN, it said: > > %MOUNT-F-FORMAT, invalid media format > > So I couldn't mount it to do the BACKUP/PHYSICAL. > > What options do I have to image this disk? > > Regards > > Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 14 07:45:58 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 13:45:58 +0100 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <00c801d1f626$924faba0$b6ef02e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00cb01d1f629$ce2ad2a0$6a8077e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre > Souza > Sent: 14 August 2016 13:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; rob at jarratt.me.uk > Subject: RE: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow > > Linux, using dd? > This did cross my mind. I suppose I am not sure how to get Linux onto the machine. With VMS I know I can netboot, I don't have enough Unix knowledge to netboot a MicroVAX II. I will try to research how to do it, but if anyone has any nice pointers that would be great. Regards Rob From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Aug 14 07:33:53 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 13:33:53 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 14 Aug 2016 13:22:49 +0100" <00c801d1f626$924faba0$b6ef02e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01Q3QME5KIEW0000G4@beyondthepale.ie> > > > > > For imaging my first thought is to put the disk into a MicroVAX II, net boot the > > MicroVAX into VMS and do a BACKUP/PHYSICAL, copying the image to a > > SIMH tap file. There shouldn't be any issues with this I assume? > > > > Oh dear. VMS would not let me MOUNT/FOREIGN, it said: > > %MOUNT-F-FORMAT, invalid media format > > So I couldn't mount it to do the BACKUP/PHYSICAL. > > What options do I have to image this disk? > > It appears that the format used by the Rainbow disk controller is not compatible with the format used by the controller in the MVII :-( It looks likely you will have to run something on the Rainbow itself to do this unless it is possible to extract the disk controller from the Rainbow and put it into something else that can cope with it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Aug 14 07:51:08 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 13:51:08 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 14 Aug 2016 13:45:58 +0100" <00cb01d1f629$ce2ad2a0$6a8077e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <00c801d1f626$924faba0$b6ef02e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01Q3QMYN7B9I0000G4@beyondthepale.ie> > > > > > Linux, using dd? > > > > This did cross my mind. I suppose I am not sure how to get Linux onto the > machine. With VMS I know I can netboot, I don't have enough Unix knowledge > to netboot a MicroVAX II. I will try to research how to do it, but if anyone > has any nice pointers that would be great. > I suspect Linux (does Linux run on an MVII - maybe some bsd variant?) on the MVII is going to have the same problem VMS is having seeing the RD51 if the format used by the MVII controller is different to the format used by the controller in the Rainbow. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 09:07:43 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 10:07:43 -0400 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <03b5c893-6b6f-258a-572a-440884460604@btinternet.com> References: <03b5c893-6b6f-258a-572a-440884460604@btinternet.com> Message-ID: I think I've registered with you before, but I'm interested in a PDP-11/70 panel and if you do them, a bezel for it. John H. Reinhardt On 8/12/2016 4:49 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi Guys > > Well my panels made to VCF. I have had some feedback and I expect more. > > Currently I have stock of PDP-8/e (Types A and B) , PDP-8/f and PDP-8/m. > > PDP-8/i should be out of manufacturing by now. Next up is PDP-8/L. > > -++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Order the above now ++++++++++++++++++ > > Due to our house remodeling and holidays at the silk screen studio it was quiet up until this week.. > > However now things have started up again. I'm about to revisit the PDP-8 bezel project. > > The prototype had a few issues but nothing major. I should have a painted example shortly. > > Once the PDP-8/L batch are safely in the stock room it will be time to start on PDP-11 panels. > > +++++++++++++++++++++++ Please register interest in bezels and PDP-11 panels ++++++++++++++++ > > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > > > > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 14 09:18:27 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 15:18:27 +0100 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <000701d1f629$300c4ea0$9024ebe0$@gmail.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <00c801d1f626$924faba0$b6ef02e0$@ntlworld.com> <000701d1f629$300c4ea0$9024ebe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ce01d1f636$b9b133c0$2d139b40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Wade [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com] > Sent: 14 August 2016 13:42 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow > > Looking at > > http://www.vaxarchive.org/hardware/mfm/index.html > > the RD51 is a 10Mb Seagate ST412 disk with a DEC label on it. I think you > should therefore be able to image it with one of these:- > > http://www.vaxarchive.org/hardware/mfm/index.html > Dave, That second link is the same as the first one, did you intend a different link? Regards Rob From phil at ultimate.com Sun Aug 14 10:10:27 2016 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 11:10:27 -0400 Subject: Kermit version compatibility. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201608141510.u7EFAR40012244@ultimate.com> I ran into (possibly whenthis trying to send some files to the LCM TOPS-10). Found this: http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckcbwr.html C-Kermit 7.0 is the first release of C-Kermit to use fast (rather than robust and therefore slow) protocol defaults: long packets, sliding windows, control-character unprefixing, and streaming where possible. This makes most transfers (partner willing) dramatically faster "out of the box" but might break some combinations that worked before. If transfers with C-Kermit 7.0 or later fail where transfers worked with earlier C-Kermit versions, try the following (one at a time, in this order): 1. SET PREFIXING ALL: Disables control-character unprefixing. 2. SET STREAMING OFF: Disables streaming. 3. CAUTIOUS: Selects medium but cautious protocol settings. 4. ROBUST: this command reverts to the most conservative protocol settings. Execution of multiple file transfers by C-Kermit from a command file when in remote mode might exhibit long delays between each transfer. To avoid this, just include the command "SET DELAY 0" in your command file before any of the file-transfer commands. My (vague) recall is that I had to: Disable windowing Possibly limit max packet size Manually start the transfer on the remote end From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 14 10:54:14 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 08:54:14 -0700 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 8/14/16 3:55 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a Rainbow 100+ with a working hard disk. I want to image the disk > before it fails and then emulate the Rainbow. The disk is an RD51 and > appears to have 4 partitions on it. > MAME supports it. It was a bear to get working correctly. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 14 10:59:30 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 08:59:30 -0700 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0b9f7a28-d95c-a49a-4260-caf2c691d64e@bitsavers.org> If it's running MS-DOS, you should be able to find/write something to do a raw image dump out the serial port. That reminds me, I need to image some Rainbow floppies I have. I would think someone would have already written this in the MS-DOS world. On 8/14/16 8:54 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 8/14/16 3:55 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> I have a Rainbow 100+ with a working hard disk. I want to image the disk >> before it fails and then emulate the Rainbow. The disk is an RD51 and >> appears to have 4 partitions on it. >> > > MAME supports it. It was a bear to get working correctly. > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 02:27:40 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 00:27:40 -0700 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <000301d1f5a0$0799d6b0$16cd8410$@xs4all.nl> References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> <57ADE82B.6040202@gmail.com> <00e701d1f546$43f94320$cbebc960$@xs4all.nl> <581859A2-D99F-4B99-A48C-BB46479C210F@gmail.com> <000301d1f5a0$0799d6b0$16cd8410$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <7BDDE088-01C5-4836-B11D-96591F5B1A1A@gmail.com> Thanks! Marc > On Aug 13, 2016, at 1:19 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > Marc, > > Building a crowbar is easy, just take a Zener a little higher than the psu > voltage eg 5.2V for 5V rail put a resistor of 1k in series take a Thyristor > big enough to take about 150% of the schort current and connect it to the > zener through a small resistor. I suppose you can do the math ;) > Be sure to put a crowbar on both the +12V and +5V and you could consider one > on the -12V rail but that voltage doesn't have a pass transistor but a 320K > voltage regulator which has a reasonable protection for over voltage. > The -5V is connected to the -12V through a zener. > Tony reverse engineered the schematics, you can download them a the HP > Museum website or become a member of the HPCC and order the CD with all > Tony's diagrams (a lot of eexcellent work). > > -Rik > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens >> curiousmarc3 at gmail.com >> Verzonden: zaterdag 13 augustus 2016 12:15 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: Re: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 >> >> Thanks for the info. Any schematics of the modification? >> Marc >> >> >>> On Aug 13, 2016, at 2:37 AM, Rik Bos wrote: >>> >>> >>> For what it's worth a small warning about the HP 9825 series computers. >>> The power supply doesn't have a crowbar(over voltage protection), so a >>> transistor failure in the Psu can be catastrophic. >>> On the other hand the two 9835's I have, which uses the same form >>> factor and almost the same power supply layout are HP modified with >> crowbars added. >>> It seems to be good practice to add some ov-protection to the HP 9825 >>> supply because the switching transistor and 723 voltage regulators >>> don't have the eternal life. >>> And there no certain prediction in how they fail, short or open >>> circuit, I found out the hard way several years ago. >>> >>> -Rik > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 06:48:29 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 07:48:29 -0400 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 Message-ID: > > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 09:20:13 -0400 > From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > Subject: Re: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - > PDP-11 > > There's also different coloured versions for many of the panels too. > E.g. there's a brown-and-white '70 panel used in OEM typesetting > systems by CSI Systems (if I recall right). > > Cheers, > Christian > The RICM has a brown CSI PDP-11/70 front panel. -- Michael Thompson From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Aug 14 07:44:06 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 13:44:06 +0100 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15d4cead-2906-4d36-786f-f741f2f2b0ba@btinternet.com> On 14/08/2016 12:48, Michael Thompson wrote: >> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 09:20:13 -0400 >> From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove >> Subject: Re: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - >> PDP-11 >> >> There's also different coloured versions for many of the panels too. >> E.g. there's a brown-and-white '70 panel used in OEM typesetting >> systems by CSI Systems (if I recall right). >> >> Cheers, >> Christian >> > The RICM has a brown CSI PDP-11/70 front panel. > Sheesh! Its going to take me a while to catalog all that lot!! Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Aug 14 11:03:47 2016 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 12:03:47 -0400 Subject: VAX file format conversion In-Reply-To: <01Q3PP5UNRG80000G4@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01Q3PP5UNRG80000G4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 8/13/2016 3:14 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > >> Oh and if you are doing serial transfers, yes, keeping the baud rate >> low is a good strategy. >> I had to spend some time working on the DECnet-DOS DDCMP driver >> developing better character overrun recovery strategies. Yes, you may >> be coming in via a terminal line, but that line can hiccup from time to time. >> > Additionally, I would suggest using any terminal line other than the > console line (OPA0:) to do any sort of serial file transfers, even for > cutting and pasting groups of lines into a terminal emulator running in > a window on some other system. It is very easy to overrun the console > and to end up getting it hung requiring a reboot or even a poweroff to > clear it. I suspect there is no flow control at all on the console > terminal line and error recover is poorer than on ordinary terminal lines. > > If you can only log in on the console due to lack of licensing, I would > suggest manually typing in just the VAX-VMS hobbyist license (and maybe a > license for a networking product) on the console, then logging on using > another terminal or over the network to transfer the other licenses. > > If you can't avoid cutting and pasting into a terminal emulator attached > to the console line, do no more than groups of one or two lines at a time. The console line is different than other serial ports on the VAX when it comes to flow control, I seem to remember using the other lines for transfer without these problems. I was too lazy to type in the one PAK by hand, although I seem to remember doing that in the past. > >>> Is Hyperterminal screwing things up? >>> > Hyperterminal and/or any of the so-called VT100 emulators bundled with > Windows are of little use to connect to anything that makes more than > the simplest use of a VT100 terminal or later generations of same. It > will work ok for entering line mode commands but if you start up an > editor or another fullscreen application of moderate complexity, it > will fail spectacularly and leave you with a garbled mess on the screen. > The problem is that Hyperterminal et al do not implement scrolling > regions correctly or maybe at all. > > If Hyperterminal purports to provide kermit file transfer, there may be > an option somewhere to specify text rather than binary file transfer or > it may be that this is not required at that end. Is there a linux program that will do the serial terminal emulation/logging ? I have a laptop that I am using as the console I am thinking of changing it over to Debian Linux. I was using an old Dell Mini but the keys were way to small for typing accurately. Doug From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Sun Aug 14 11:27:08 2016 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (fritz_chwolka@web.de) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 18:27:08 +0200 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Am 14.08.2016 um 12:55 schrieb Rob Jarratt: > I have a Rainbow 100+ with a working hard disk. I want to image the disk > before it fails and then emulate the Rainbow. The disk is an RD51 and > appears to have 4 partitions on it. > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > I can't help but you make me remembering some files for the rainbow I got from a nice guy in australia whos's playing mostly with his os/2 stuff ;-) http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/sw/dec/rainbow/index.html for my own CP/M systems I got a MFM Hard Disk Reader/Emulator from http://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml. It isn't useful for your part but with it I managed to replace my MFM-Drive and store it in a saver place. Australia From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 14 12:35:29 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 18:35:29 +0100 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <01Q3QME5KIEW0000G4@beyondthepale.ie> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <01Q3QME5KIEW0000G4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <00d301d1f652$402235b0$c066a110$@ntlworld.com> > > Oh dear. VMS would not let me MOUNT/FOREIGN, it said: > > > > %MOUNT-F-FORMAT, invalid media format > > > > So I couldn't mount it to do the BACKUP/PHYSICAL. > > > > What options do I have to image this disk? > > > > > > It appears that the format used by the Rainbow disk controller is not > compatible with the format used by the controller in the MVII :-( > > It looks likely you will have to run something on the Rainbow itself to do this > unless it is possible to extract the disk controller from the Rainbow and put it > into something else that can cope with it. > I should have thought of that. I think my options are either on-box, or David Gesswein's MFM reader/emulator. My inclination is the latter because I actually bought the original board but then never actually built it because at the time I was enjoying the challenge of attempting to create my own such reader/emulator using an FPGA. My project faltered and I never found the energy to build David's, but I think I will now. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 14 12:38:09 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 18:38:09 +0100 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00d401d1f652$9f994bf0$decbe3d0$@ntlworld.com> Thanks for that link with the files, that looks really useful. Is there a zip of the whole lot anywhere or an FTP site, to make it easier to download? Regards Rob From: fritz_chwolka at web.de [mailto:fritz_chwolka at t-online.de] Sent: 14 August 2016 17:27 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow Am 14.08.2016 um 12:55 schrieb Rob Jarratt: I have a Rainbow 100+ with a working hard disk. I want to image the disk before it fails and then emulate the Rainbow. The disk is an RD51 and appears to have 4 partitions on it. Regards Rob I can't help but you make me remembering some files for the rainbow I got from a nice guy in australia whos's playing mostly with his os/2 stuff ;-) http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/sw/dec/rainbow/inde x.html for my own CP/M systems I got a MFM Hard Disk Reader/Emulator from http://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml. It isn't useful for your part but with it I managed to replace my MFM-Drive and store it in a saver place. Australia From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Aug 14 12:43:20 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 11:43:20 -0600 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00d301d1f652$402235b0$c066a110$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <01Q3QME5KIEW0000G4@beyondthepale.ie> <00d301d1f652$402235b0$c066a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > >> > Oh dear. VMS would not let me MOUNT/FOREIGN, it said: >> > >> > %MOUNT-F-FORMAT, invalid media format >> > >> > So I couldn't mount it to do the BACKUP/PHYSICAL. >> > >> > What options do I have to image this disk? >> > >> > >> >> It appears that the format used by the Rainbow disk controller is not >> compatible with the format used by the controller in the MVII :-( >> >> It looks likely you will have to run something on the Rainbow itself to do > this >> unless it is possible to extract the disk controller from the Rainbow and > put it >> into something else that can cope with it. >> > > I should have thought of that. I think my options are either on-box, or > David Gesswein's MFM reader/emulator. My inclination is the latter because I > actually bought the original board but then never actually built it because > at the time I was enjoying the challenge of attempting to create my own such > reader/emulator using an FPGA. My project faltered and I never found the > energy to build David's, but I think I will now. The format used by the Rainbow and the MVII are the same. The low-level, bits on the disk format. However, the Rainbow and the MVII use radically different meta data to describe the disks (both in terms of how tracks are constructed and some other bits). The source to the Rainbow hard disk partitioning and formatting utility is available in the various Rainbow archives. You'd need to start there. It has extensive documentation about all the details of how things are put down onto the drive to 'format' it. I've successfully read, but not written rainbow hard drives with an ancient version of FreeBSD that supported the ST-504 interface and the WD8002 controller. FreeBSD killed that code a long time ago, but I think it may still be alive in Linux. It's been so long I don't recall if it was a simple dd, or if I had to hack something together to read the raw bytes off each track... Looking just now, I can't find the images I created, but I still have my Rainbow 100B (upgraded to a 100+) in the basement. Warner From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 14 12:44:30 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 10:44:30 -0700 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <0b9f7a28-d95c-a49a-4260-caf2c691d64e@bitsavers.org> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <0b9f7a28-d95c-a49a-4260-caf2c691d64e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 08/14/2016 08:59 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > If it's running MS-DOS, you should be able to find/write something to > do a raw image dump out the serial port. > > That reminds me, I need to image some Rainbow floppies I have. > > I would think someone would have already written this in the MS-DOS > world. They have. Back in 1987, I wrote something for the PC called "RAINDOS" for Rainbow floppies. I'm sure it's on SIMTEL20. There are various similarly ancient hard disk backup utilities that use MSDOS Int 23H/24H for imaging hard drives. They'll work fine on the Rainbow, IIRC. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Aug 14 12:45:23 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 11:45:23 -0600 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <0b9f7a28-d95c-a49a-4260-caf2c691d64e@bitsavers.org> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <0b9f7a28-d95c-a49a-4260-caf2c691d64e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I've read Rainbow disks with both Linux and FreeBSD's floppy drivers. However, the track layout is 'weird' and I never hacked together anything to cope so that mount and friends would be able to read the disks. There was a raindrive.sys, iirc, that did this well enough for DOS to access the files, but I can't find any copies of it now. Warner On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 9:59 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > If it's running MS-DOS, you should be able to find/write something to do a raw image > dump out the serial port. > > That reminds me, I need to image some Rainbow floppies I have. > > I would think someone would have already written this in the MS-DOS world. > > On 8/14/16 8:54 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >> On 8/14/16 3:55 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> I have a Rainbow 100+ with a working hard disk. I want to image the disk >>> before it fails and then emulate the Rainbow. The disk is an RD51 and >>> appears to have 4 partitions on it. >>> >> >> MAME supports it. It was a bear to get working correctly. >> >> > From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Sun Aug 14 12:57:28 2016 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (fritz_chwolka@web.de) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 19:57:28 +0200 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00d401d1f652$9f994bf0$decbe3d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <00d401d1f652$9f994bf0$decbe3d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <76297896-a048-da22-6a89-e4ab71d08380@web.de> Am 14.08.2016 um 19:38 schrieb Rob Jarratt: > Thanks for that link with the files, that looks really useful. Is there a > zip of the whole lot anywhere or an FTP site, to make it easier to download? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > From: fritz_chwolka at web.de [mailto:fritz_chwolka at t-online.de] > Sent: 14 August 2016 17:27 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow > > > > Am 14.08.2016 um 12:55 schrieb Rob Jarratt: > > I have a Rainbow 100+ with a working hard disk. I want to image the disk > before it fails and then emulate the Rainbow. The disk is an RD51 and > appears to have 4 partitions on it. > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > I can't help but you make me remembering some files for the rainbow I got > from a nice guy in australia whos's playing mostly with his os/2 stuff ;-) > > http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/sw/dec/rainbow/inde > x.html > > for my own CP/M systems I got a MFM Hard Disk Reader/Emulator from > http://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml. > > It isn't useful for your part but with it I managed to replace my MFM-Drive > and store it in a saver place. > Hi rob I can make a zip, for Rainbow or for all the dec stuff? From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Sun Aug 14 13:14:17 2016 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (fritz_chwolka@web.de) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 20:14:17 +0200 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00d401d1f652$9f994bf0$decbe3d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <00d401d1f652$9f994bf0$decbe3d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Am 14.08.2016 um 19:38 schrieb Rob Jarratt: > Thanks for that link with the files, that looks really useful. Is there a > zip of the whole lot anywhere or an FTP site, to make it easier to download? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob Hope it works... http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/!komplete_dec-stuff_from_os2site.zip From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Aug 14 13:24:08 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 19:24:08 +0100 Subject: Front Panel update - Catalog Message-ID: <7d592e81-9c6f-7490-ec38-bd5976490c03@btinternet.com> Hi Guys I'd like to catalog my growing list of panels etc. and the data I have on them. Some of course I may never make and others I will. A number of you are connected to museums and would have come across this issue. Perhaps you could advise. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 14:04:23 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 12:04:23 -0700 Subject: Front Panel update - Catalog In-Reply-To: <7d592e81-9c6f-7490-ec38-bd5976490c03@btinternet.com> References: <7d592e81-9c6f-7490-ec38-bd5976490c03@btinternet.com> Message-ID: My preference: KISS principle; keep it simple, stupid. Set up an HTTP server or a web host that does directory listings, and and dump all the stuff into a sensible folder structure a-la Bitsavers. When you get more stuff just file it accordingly. No need for wikis or CMSes or any of that junk. Cheers, - Ian On Sunday, August 14, 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi Guys > > I'd like to catalog my growing list of panels etc. and the > data I have on them. > > Some of course I may never make and others I will. > > A number of you are connected to museums and would have come > across this issue. > > Perhaps you could advise. > > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 14 14:07:19 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 20:07:19 +0100 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <00d401d1f652$9f994bf0$decbe3d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00e501d1f65f$148dac10$3da90430$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > fritz_chwolka at web.de > Sent: 14 August 2016 19:14 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow > > Am 14.08.2016 um 19:38 schrieb Rob Jarratt: > > Thanks for that link with the files, that looks really useful. Is > > there a zip of the whole lot anywhere or an FTP site, to make it easier to > download? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > > Hope it works... > > http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/!komplete_dec- > stuff_from_os2site.zip Thanks, I got that! I noticed you have a Pro folder as well, any chance you could zip that too? Regards Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Aug 14 14:26:46 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 20:26:46 +0100 Subject: Front Panel update - Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <7d592e81-9c6f-7490-ec38-bd5976490c03@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Thanks that's interesting Rod On 14/08/2016 20:04, Ian Finder wrote: > My preference: KISS principle; keep it simple, stupid. > > Set up an HTTP server or a web host that does directory listings, and and > dump all the stuff into a sensible folder structure a-la Bitsavers. > > When you get more stuff just file it accordingly. > > No need for wikis or CMSes or any of that junk. > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > On Sunday, August 14, 2016, Rod Smallwood > wrote: > >> Hi Guys >> >> I'd like to catalog my growing list of panels etc. and the >> data I have on them. >> >> Some of course I may never make and others I will. >> >> A number of you are connected to museums and would have come >> across this issue. >> >> Perhaps you could advise. >> >> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >> >> >> >> From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 14 14:33:10 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 14:33:10 -0500 Subject: Front Panel update - Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <7d592e81-9c6f-7490-ec38-bd5976490c03@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <001a01d1f662$b11471b0$133d5510$@classiccmp.org> I had already offered to host the panels... I just didn't want to create full blow web content as that's not my bag. But if you want just directory listing format - I can do that easily. J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 2:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Front Panel update - Catalog Thanks that's interesting Rod On 14/08/2016 20:04, Ian Finder wrote: > My preference: KISS principle; keep it simple, stupid. > > Set up an HTTP server or a web host that does directory listings, and > and dump all the stuff into a sensible folder structure a-la Bitsavers. > > When you get more stuff just file it accordingly. > > No need for wikis or CMSes or any of that junk. > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > On Sunday, August 14, 2016, Rod Smallwood > > wrote: > >> Hi Guys >> >> I'd like to catalog my growing list of panels etc. and >> the data I have on them. >> >> Some of course I may never make and others I will. >> >> A number of you are connected to museums and would have >> come across this issue. >> >> Perhaps you could advise. >> >> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >> >> >> >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 14 14:56:37 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 15:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Front Panel update - Catalog Message-ID: <20160814195637.B766D18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay West > I had already offered to host the panels... I just didn't want to > create full blow web content I'd be happy to create some Web V0.1 content for it - similar to my other simple Web pages, e.g.: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html Let me know. Noel From isking at uw.edu Sun Aug 14 15:08:05 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 13:08:05 -0700 Subject: R: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: <5e7f16fe-fcff-4564-9830-540ca63b4747@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> <5e7f16fe-fcff-4564-9830-540ca63b4747@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 8:09 PM, ben wrote: > On 8/12/2016 9:15 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: >> >>> It was not enough to have mishandled vms, and killed palm. Now they >>> want to destroy also what's left of SGI ? >>> Better I don't say what I'm really thinking... >>> >> >> "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for men of good conscience to >> remain silent." >> >> >> Apollo, DEC, Compaq, Ericsson, Palm, . . . >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Hewlett-Packard >> >> >> If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers? >> > > HP-BOX now runs all the games and windows* too. Ben. > * Game of upgrading every 9 months. > > Grab all the SGI docs/bits you can, before HP sends them to /dev/null and 404.... -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 15:25:58 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 15:25:58 -0500 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <15d4cead-2906-4d36-786f-f741f2f2b0ba@btinternet.com> References: <15d4cead-2906-4d36-786f-f741f2f2b0ba@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Does this mean you don't want to know about the 8 and 11 blue and red industrial control panels? On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Rod Smallwood < rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > > > On 14/08/2016 12:48, Michael Thompson wrote: > >> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 09:20:13 -0400 >>> From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove >>> Subject: Re: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - >>> PDP-11 >>> >>> There's also different coloured versions for many of the panels too. >>> E.g. there's a brown-and-white '70 panel used in OEM typesetting >>> systems by CSI Systems (if I recall right). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Christian >>> >>> The RICM has a brown CSI PDP-11/70 front panel. >> >> Sheesh! Its going to take me a while to catalog all that lot!! > > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Sun Aug 14 15:28:23 2016 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (fritz_chwolka@web.de) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 22:28:23 +0200 Subject: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow In-Reply-To: <00e501d1f65f$148dac10$3da90430$@ntlworld.com> References: <00c101d1f61a$5e283150$1a7893f0$@ntlworld.com> <00d401d1f652$9f994bf0$decbe3d0$@ntlworld.com> <00e501d1f65f$148dac10$3da90430$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Am 14.08.2016 um 21:07 schrieb Rob Jarratt: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> fritz_chwolka at web.de >> Sent: 14 August 2016 19:14 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Imaging and Emulating Rainbow >> >> Am 14.08.2016 um 19:38 schrieb Rob Jarratt: >>> Thanks for that link with the files, that looks really useful. Is >>> there a zip of the whole lot anywhere or an FTP site, to make it easier > to >> download? >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> >>> >>> Rob >> >> Hope it works... >> >> http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/!komplete_dec- >> stuff_from_os2site.zip > Thanks, I got that! > > I noticed you have a Pro folder as well, any chance you could zip that too? > > Regards > > Rob > > I zipped all so you have it . Greetings fritz From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Aug 14 15:43:30 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 21:43:30 +0100 Subject: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <15d4cead-2906-4d36-786f-f741f2f2b0ba@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 14/08/2016 21:25, Paul Anderson wrote: > Does this mean you don't want to know about the 8 and 11 blue and red > industrial control panels? > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Rod Smallwood < > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > >> >> On 14/08/2016 12:48, Michael Thompson wrote: >> >>> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 09:20:13 -0400 >>>> From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove >>>> Subject: Re: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - >>>> PDP-11 >>>> >>>> There's also different coloured versions for many of the panels too. >>>> E.g. there's a brown-and-white '70 panel used in OEM typesetting >>>> systems by CSI Systems (if I recall right). >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Christian >>>> >>>> The RICM has a brown CSI PDP-11/70 front panel. >>> Sheesh! Its going to take me a while to catalog all that lot!! >> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >> >> Good Grief ! No I need all the data I can get. Rod From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 14 11:20:10 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 12:20:10 -0400 Subject: VAX file format conversion In-Reply-To: References: <01Q3PP5UNRG80000G4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > On Aug 14, 2016, at 12:03 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > ... > Is there a linux program that will do the serial terminal emulation/logging ? I have a laptop > that I am using as the console I am thinking of changing it over to Debian Linux. I was > using an old Dell Mini but the keys were way to small for typing accurately. I've used minicom for that. Seemed to work well. paul From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 14:07:47 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 12:07:47 -0700 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <2222fe97a4b2e9348ae0386d357e71bb@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> <57ADE82B.6040202@gmail.com> <00e701d1f546$43f94320$cbebc960$@xs4all.nl> <57AF9CD6.8070300@gmail.com> <2222fe97a4b2e9348ae0386d357e71bb@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> Message-ID: <80EBD5FF-9B00-41F4-834C-DC492550E5E6@gmail.com> Would you pictures of it and where it sits in the machine by any chance? Marc Sent from my iPad > On Aug 14, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > Paul, > > It is a small extra pcb( with hp logo). Both my machines are build in Germany, which is logic because I?m living in the Netherlands and aquired both in Europe. > So it could be a local modification made by the Boeblingen factory or even HP Netherlands. > I?m happy with it? > > -Rik > > Van: Paul Berger From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Aug 14 12:22:36 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 19:22:36 +0200 Subject: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825 In-Reply-To: <57AF9CD6.8070300@gmail.com> References: <2F4209D3-3D1D-45E8-AB1F-99F61E76F5B5@gmail.com> <008c01d1e477$9d04be70$d70e3b50$@gmail.com> <5792CF62.4010901@gmail.com> <011801d1e4b5$799e8360$6cdb8a20$@gmail.com> <001001d1e596$67210f50$35632df0$@bigpond.com> <57ADE82B.6040202@gmail.com> <00e701d1f546$43f94320$cbebc960$@xs4all.nl> <57AF9CD6.8070300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2222fe97a4b2e9348ae0386d357e71bb@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> Paul, It is a small extra pcb( with hp logo). Both my machines are build in Germany, which is logic because I?m living in the Netherlands and aquired both in Europe. So it could be a local modification made by the Boeblingen factory or even HP Netherlands. I?m happy with it? -Rik Van: Paul Berger From classiccmp at crash.com Sun Aug 14 16:02:07 2016 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 14:02:07 -0700 Subject: R: HP to acquire SGI In-Reply-To: References: <006401d1f499$8cf73580$a6e5a080$@tin.it> <5e7f16fe-fcff-4564-9830-540ca63b4747@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 08/14/2016 13:08, Ian S. King wrote: > > Grab all the SGI docs/bits you can, before HP sends them to /dev/null and > 404.... SGI "retired" their excellent TechPubs system not very long ago when they outsourced customer support, thereby removing all the docs and patches that still covered many of the MIPS-based products of the original company. There are a couple mirrors around in various states of functionality, the one I've been referring folks to is at http://techpubs.jurassic.nl, with thanks to Jan-Jaap. In HP(e)'s defense, they have so far kept an awful lot of DEC and Compaq material online. Perhaps that's by accident as much as intent, but I'm not complaining either way... For instance, I was just perusing (and saving) the DEC Tech Journal from 1991 - 1998, which is archived under the HP Journal (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/journal.html) and alongside the Tandem Systems Review. --S. From cctalk at snarc.net Sun Aug 14 16:15:43 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2016 17:15:43 -0400 Subject: VCF West - news, pictures, videos Message-ID: VCF West last weekend saw more than 1,000 attendees. Huge thank-you to everyone!!! We are processing the videos and will post links here when they're ready. Meanwhile there are some excellent pictures / articles / etc. already online. A few are here: - TechRepublic (by me): [url]http://www.techrepublic.com/pictures/photos-homebrew-cpus-ibm-mainframes-amazing-replicas-and-more-from-vintage-computer-festival-west-xi/[/url] - TechCrunch's pictures: [url]https://techcrunch.com/gallery/how-far-weve-come-the-top-5-retro-gadgets-from-the-vintage-computer-festival/[/url] - San Jose Mercury News: [url]http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_30214923/vintage-computer-festival-west-returns-after-nine-year[/url] - SD Times: [url]http://sdtimes.com/vintage-computer-festival-highlights-decades-history/[/url] - Bill Deg.'s pictures: [url]http://vintagecomputer.net/VCFWest_2016/[/url] - Jim S.'s videos: [url]https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5NK70kdq3-JGwb_8GXFN5SqDtbTKtLi7[/url] - Same Jim S. has pictures, too: [url]https://photos.google.com/share