From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Nov 1 01:27:44 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 07:27:44 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> <5635342F.7050301@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5635BEF0.3050306@btinternet.com> Yes much as I thought. What about S100 systems? Many did have lamps and switches but I can think of a couple that didn't . Northstar Horizon for one and Cromenco also. On 31/10/15 21:36, tony duell wrote: >> Hi Tony >> I seem to remember, certainly in OEM land there were dev. >> systems with front panels and production systems without. >> In other words the front panel was option and could be fitted. > Sure. The PDP8/f and PDP8/m are the well-known example. Many of the > Philips P800s had optional full panels too (fortunately the ones I own > do have the full panels). And there must be many more > > But I still claim it is difficult to add a panel to a machine that was never > designed to have one. In the case of machines with optional full > frontpanels the machine was designed to take a frontpanel and either > to also run without it or there was some minimal panel (boot/reset/not > much else) that provided enough logic that the processor didn't realise > it didn't have the full panel (if you see what I mean). > > -tony From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Nov 1 00:28:09 2015 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 22:28:09 -0700 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> <5634D90C.3020209@t-online.de> Message-ID: A PCjr with a front panel of blinking lights is just ridiculous. :) On Oct 31, 2015 1:24 PM, "Tom Moss" wrote: > I recall a minimalist front panel board for the PC jr of all things > > http://www.brutman.com/PCjr/pcjr_legacy.html > > I'd quite like to see a fully fledged panel for Q-BUS based PDP-11s, or > even a VAX. > > On 31 October 2015 at 15:06, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > > > Hmmm, > > > > There is one example: PDP11GUI has a virtual 11/70 panel in it, which can > > be used to operate all supported PDP-11's, including QBUS machines and > SimH. > > As I programmed it I believed this was a "must-have", but honestly, it's > > more kind of a "Pimp my Eleven" joke. > > > > Personal credo now: better invest your lifetime into restauration of > > original machines. > > > > kind regards, > > Joerg > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 31.10.2015 um 07:32 schrieb rod: > > > >> Hi Guys > >> Sitting here doing the overlays for the 8/e silk screen run. > >> I had a thought. Including all makes of computer old and new. > >> What about a front panel with lights and switches for systems > >> that never had one and could have done with one? > >> Which computer would you nominate? > >> > >> I'm not about to do anything about it. > >> But the answers should be interesting > >> > >> > >> > >> Rod Smallwood > >> > >> > >> > >> > From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Nov 1 00:35:12 2015 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 22:35:12 -0700 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> Message-ID: Hi Mike, I'm not annoyed and I'm not blocking you from viewing anything. Talk to the owner of the VC forum - Erik can help you, it is his forum and his call. On Oct 30, 2015 9:30 AM, "Mike Stein" wrote: > Hi Jack, > > Unfortunately I can't access the pictures on VCF > because I apparently annoyed the moderator Mike > Brutman, but I really enjoyed the pics on Picasa; > thanks for posting - always fun to see some of the > European stuff. > > I didn't hear or see anything about VCF-Berlin > either; a shame since I have friends and relatives > in Berlin and nearby, and this would have been a > great excuse to finally visit them again. Maybe > next year... > > Will we see you at the World of Commodore this > year on December 5? > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Rubin" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 10:13 PM > Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 > > > Here are some of my photos from VCF-Berlin - > http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-2015 . More narrative is > at the Vintage Computer Forum - > http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-vcfd . Enjoy - I > certainly did! > > Jack > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 01:32:50 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 07:32:50 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <5635BEF0.3050306@btinternet.com> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> <5635342F.7050301@btinternet.com> , <5635BEF0.3050306@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > > Yes much as I thought. What about S100 systems? > Many did have lamps and switches but I can think of a couple that didn't . > Northstar Horizon for one and Cromenco also. If you have a machine that allows for other devices to become a bus master and access memory and I/O devices (S100 does this) then it is relatively easy to make a front panel that does just that. You can then use said panel to access memory, but not, of course proceessor registers. Somebody mentioned the PCjr. Unlike the PC (and all its descendants), the PCjr doesn't have a internal DMA controller but allows for one to be added on the expansion port. As a result, a device there can take over the system bus, just what you need for a front panel. For the machines I mentioned earlier (PDP11s, VAXen, PERQs), the Unibus does of course allow for multiple bus masters. But in the case of the 11/44 and VAX11/730 main memory is not on the Unibus (which only allows for 18 bit addressing), there is an address translator which is configured by the CPU between Unibus addresses and main memory addresses. So a DMA peripheral doesn't get access to all of memory (unlilke on smaller PDP11s). And of course you wouldn't get access to processor registers, etc that way. And the PERQ doesn't allow for other bus masters at all. Memory control on that machine was designed in conjunction with the I/O system (which includes DMA controllers and the graphics system). -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 1 02:13:25 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 01:13:25 -0700 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <5635BEF0.3050306@btinternet.com> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> <5635342F.7050301@btinternet.com> <5635BEF0.3050306@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <23820D6B-8565-452D-85E9-D9B05BCBDD0E@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Nov-01, at 12:27 AM, rod wrote: > On 31/10/15 21:36, tony duell wrote: >>> Hi Tony >>> I seem to remember, certainly in OEM land there were dev. >>> systems with front panels and production systems without. >>> In other words the front panel was option and could be fitted. >> Sure. The PDP8/f and PDP8/m are the well-known example. Many of the >> Philips P800s had optional full panels too (fortunately the ones I own >> do have the full panels). And there must be many more >> >> But I still claim it is difficult to add a panel to a machine that was never >> designed to have one. In the case of machines with optional full >> frontpanels the machine was designed to take a frontpanel and either >> to also run without it or there was some minimal panel (boot/reset/not >> much else) that provided enough logic that the processor didn't realise >> it didn't have the full panel (if you see what I mean). >> >> -tony > Yes much as I thought. What about S100 systems? > Many did have lamps and switches but I can think of a couple that didn't . > Northstar Horizon for one and Cromenco also. The other way round I think, the Altair and IMSAI were the only S100 machines I recall OTTOMH which had blinkenlight panels. The vast majority of them didn't. Northstar & Cromemco as you say, Compu-Pro, Vector-Graphic, Processor Tech SOL, Poly 88, etc. : no blinken. One problem with a front panel on an S100 machine - or any microprocessor-based machine - is getting access to the program counter so you can tell it to start running at some arbitrary address. The Altair/IMSAI panels resolved this with a hack, jamming a jump instruction into the processor data lines (not the S100 bus data lines) via a special connector to a special processor card. In general, even if you can bus master to put stuff into memory, front panel functionality is pretty limited if you don't have control ever execution. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Nov 1 06:10:42 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 12:10:42 +0000 Subject: Front Panels Update - Lexan and 8/e round hole positions Message-ID: <56360142.9040102@btinternet.com> Hi Guys, I got asked if we could do Lexan panels. I think it was for DG. Yes my supplier does Lexan and can laser cut holes etc. So if you need Lexan panels let me know. The next batch of 8/e A & B will have the hole for the selector switch and the one for the lock pre-drilled. We need to come up with an agreement as to the positions of said holes Can we get the coordinates and sizes of the holes from existing panels using identifiable reference points. The more I get the closer it will be. I'm hoping they won't vary and we can go ahead. Please send me any data for existing panels you may have. Rod (PanelMan) Smallwood From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 1 06:12:15 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 12:12:15 -0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load Message-ID: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> Some of you may recall I have a faulty H7864 PSU, which failed a while ago with a loud pop, but no obvious physical damage. I replaced the blown transistor (on the primary side of the large transformer), but when I power it on, the transistor does not switch and there is no output, so clearly there is still a problem somewhere. I have been spending some time drawing schematics for almost the whole thing. I am now at the point where I intend to compare it with a working one, probing each one side by side, to see up to where it appears to be working. It would be awkward to have two dummy loads, just for lack of suitable equipment. Does anyone know if it is safe to run these PSUs with no load? Would my testing be valid without a load? Thanks Rob From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 06:46:05 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 13:46:05 +0100 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: s?ndag 1 november 2015 skrev Robert Jarratt : > Some of you may recall I have a faulty H7864 PSU, which failed a while ago > with a loud pop, but no obvious physical damage. I replaced the blown > transistor (on the primary side of the large transformer), but when I power > it on, the transistor does not switch and there is no output, so clearly > there is still a problem somewhere. > > > > I have been spending some time drawing schematics for almost the whole > thing. I am now at the point where I intend to compare it with a working > one, probing each one side by side, to see up to where it appears to be > working. It would be awkward to have two dummy loads, just for lack of > suitable equipment. Does anyone know if it is safe to run these PSUs with > no > load? Would my testing be valid without a load? > > > Maybe you can publish your schematic somwhere. It is much easier to come up with ideas to pin point problems if we all view the same schematic. I think it would be possible to identify the problem without comparing the two PSUs at least in this case where there is some kind of fundamental problem. I would start with trying to decouple the bias voltage powering the switch logic so that it could be run from a bench supply while powering the main switch transistor and power transformer from a protection transformer and variac. If you run like this you could start without any dummy load at all. When you get to a higher input voltage from the variac it could be useful to have some small dummy load. What kind of chip is controlling the PSU? With bias power applied is there any switching activity output from the chip? The RC network that usually make up the time constant should have some kind of sawtooth signal I would guess. If not it can obviously be broken or some feedback signal has caused it to shut down, for example due to over current feedback. /Mattis > Thanks > > > > Rob > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 1 08:04:25 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 14:04:25 -0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <051001d114ae$3803c050$a80b40f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind > Sent: 01 November 2015 12:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load > > s?ndag 1 november 2015 skrev Robert Jarratt : > > > Some of you may recall I have a faulty H7864 PSU, which failed a while > > ago with a loud pop, but no obvious physical damage. I replaced the > > blown transistor (on the primary side of the large transformer), but > > when I power it on, the transistor does not switch and there is no > > output, so clearly there is still a problem somewhere. > > > > > > > > I have been spending some time drawing schematics for almost the whole > > thing. I am now at the point where I intend to compare it with a > > working one, probing each one side by side, to see up to where it > > appears to be working. It would be awkward to have two dummy loads, > > just for lack of suitable equipment. Does anyone know if it is safe to > > run these PSUs with no load? Would my testing be valid without a load? > > > > > > > Maybe you can publish your schematic somwhere. It is much easier to come up > with ideas to pin point problems if we all view the same schematic. I think it > would be possible to identify the problem without comparing the two PSUs at > least in this case where there is some kind of fundamental problem. I do intend to publish the schematics, but right now I am pretty sure they are: a) full of mistakes b) not drawn logically c) there are a couple of areas I couldn't trace without major surgery on the board. > > I would start with trying to decouple the bias voltage powering the switch logic > so that it could be run from a bench supply while powering the main switch > transistor and power transformer from a protection transformer and variac. If > you run like this you could start without any dummy load at all. > When you get to a higher input voltage from the variac it could be useful to > have some small dummy load. I am not a PSU expert, and I am not sure what you mean by a "bias voltage powering the switch logic". As for decoupling it, again I suspect that is way beyond my knowledge. I do have a variac though, and I believe it is not a good idea to power a SMPS from a variac. I guess the decoupling you mention would avoid the problem of using the variac, but I don't know enough to do that. > > What kind of chip is controlling the PSU? With bias power applied is there any > switching activity output from the chip? The RC network that usually make up > the time constant should have some kind of sawtooth signal I would guess. If > not it can obviously be broken or some feedback signal has caused it to shut > down, for example due to over current feedback. There are no chips in the PSU (apart from a couple of comparators). Quite a while ago, I did put a scope on the base of the transistor I mentioned (using an isolating transformer), and could not see a signal (or rather a very small signal), whereas on the known working one I did see a signal. It has been my aim to discover why this is, but it is too complicated for me, with no real PSU experience, to understand. > > /Mattis > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > From jgalinat at optonline.net Sun Nov 1 06:05:23 2015 From: jgalinat at optonline.net (Jeff Galinat) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 07:05:23 -0500 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <23820D6B-8565-452D-85E9-D9B05BCBDD0E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> <5635342F.7050301@btinternet.com> <5635BEF0.3050306@btinternet.com> <23820D6B-8565-452D-85E9-D9B05BCBDD0E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <0F21A6E6-70C3-440C-8F81-612C0CCCF874@optonline.net> > On Nov 1, 2015, at 3:13 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > The other way round I think, the Altair and IMSAI were the only S100 machines I recall OTTOMH which had blinkenlight panels. > The vast majority of them didn't. Northstar & Cromemco as you say, Compu-Pro, Vector-Graphic, Processor Tech SOL, Poly 88, etc. : no blinken. > > One problem with a front panel on an S100 machine - or any microprocessor-based machine - is getting access to the program counter so you can tell it to start running at some arbitrary address. The Altair/IMSAI panels resolved this with a hack, jamming a jump instruction into the processor data lines (not the S100 bus data lines) via a special connector to a special processor card. > > For the sake of completeness, the other S-100 machines I can think of with a full front panel were the Ithaca Intersystems DPS-1 and some BYT-8 machines. Regards, Jeff From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 08:18:48 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 14:18:48 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <23820D6B-8565-452D-85E9-D9B05BCBDD0E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> <5635342F.7050301@btinternet.com> <5635BEF0.3050306@btinternet.com>, <23820D6B-8565-452D-85E9-D9B05BCBDD0E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > One problem with a front panel on an S100 machine - or any microprocessor-based > machine - is getting access to the program counter so you can tell it to start running > at some arbitrary address. The Altair/IMSAI panels resolved this with a hack, jamming > a jump instruction into the processor data lines (not the S100 bus data lines) via a > special connector to a special processor card. Although not S100, the Intellec MCS8i was a 8080 machine with a front panel. There was no hardware way to start the processor at a particular address (No logic to jam a jump instruction onto the data bus, for example). You did have a reset switch. So what you did was take the bus over from the processor (thus effectively halting the latter), toggle a jump instruction with the appropriate address into the first 3 bytes of RAM, then reset, and give the bus back to the processor. That was even the way to start the ROM monitor program -tony From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 08:37:05 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 15:37:05 +0100 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <051001d114ae$3803c050$a80b40f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <051001d114ae$3803c050$a80b40f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: 2015-11-01 15:04 GMT+01:00 Robert Jarratt : > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis > Lind > > Sent: 01 November 2015 12:46 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load > > > > s?ndag 1 november 2015 skrev Robert Jarratt >: > > > > > Some of you may recall I have a faulty H7864 PSU, which failed a while > > > ago with a loud pop, but no obvious physical damage. I replaced the > > > blown transistor (on the primary side of the large transformer), but > > > when I power it on, the transistor does not switch and there is no > > > output, so clearly there is still a problem somewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been spending some time drawing schematics for almost the whole > > > thing. I am now at the point where I intend to compare it with a > > > working one, probing each one side by side, to see up to where it > > > appears to be working. It would be awkward to have two dummy loads, > > > just for lack of suitable equipment. Does anyone know if it is safe to > > > run these PSUs with no load? Would my testing be valid without a load? > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you can publish your schematic somwhere. It is much easier to come > up > > with ideas to pin point problems if we all view the same schematic. I > think it > > would be possible to identify the problem without comparing the two PSUs > at > > least in this case where there is some kind of fundamental problem. > > I do intend to publish the schematics, but right now I am pretty sure they > are: > > a) full of mistakes > b) not drawn logically > c) there are a couple of areas I couldn't trace without major surgery on > the board. > Well. I guess that anything is better than nothing. > > > > > I would start with trying to decouple the bias voltage powering the > switch logic > > so that it could be run from a bench supply while powering the main > switch > > transistor and power transformer from a protection transformer and > variac. If > > you run like this you could start without any dummy load at all. > > When you get to a higher input voltage from the variac it could be > useful to > > have some small dummy load. > > I am not a PSU expert, and I am not sure what you mean by a "bias voltage > powering the switch logic". As for decoupling it, again I suspect that is > way beyond my knowledge. I do have a variac though, and I believe it is not > a good idea to power a SMPS from a variac. I guess the decoupling you > mention would avoid the problem of using the variac, but I don't know > enough to do that. > The control logic is feed by some low voltage. This can happen in many ways. Either there is a simple voltage divider network with a zener from the rectified mains voltage or there is some small transformer providing the bias voltage. Then when the PSU is up and running the bias voltage can be feed from one winding of the main switch transformer (it is more efficient than the voltage divider network). If there is a voltage divider network, remove some part of it and feed the control circuit from the bench supply. If there is a small transformer then connect that to mains voltage but make sure that the rest of the supply is not connected to input AC. Then connect the variac to the input rectifier network so that you can control the voltage over the input filtering capacitors and the main switch transistor. The reason for why it normally isn't a good idea to use a variac is that there a usually several circuits in the PSU that are designed for a certain operating voltage. Like a voltage divider network for the bias supply or a small transformer. Then of course if you apply heavy dummy loads on your supply and are using a variac the current through the transistor can be quite high (hopefully there are some kind of over-current feedback signal). Thus my suggestion to not use dummy loads at all when powering it with a variac just to see how the switch works. > > > > > What kind of chip is controlling the PSU? With bias power applied is > there any > > switching activity output from the chip? The RC network that usually > make up > > the time constant should have some kind of sawtooth signal I would > guess. If > > not it can obviously be broken or some feedback signal has caused it to > shut > > down, for example due to over current feedback. > > There are no chips in the PSU (apart from a couple of comparators). Quite > a while ago, I did put a scope on the base of the transistor I mentioned > (using an isolating transformer), and could not see a signal (or rather a > very small signal), whereas on the known working one I did see a signal. It > has been my aim to discover why this is, but it is too complicated for me, > with no real PSU experience, to understand. > Ok, no SMPS IC. Somewhere there has to be a circuit that generates a basic clock signal for the supply. I would try to find that signal and follow it through the circuit. /Mattis > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 1 09:21:02 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 10:21:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... Message-ID: <20151101152102.838AD18C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I've ordered 10 7101J50-CQE2's from Online ... _Iff_ they fit into the > old front panels, I'll let the list know. > ... > let's see if the 7101J50-C's fit, then we can discuss how to proceed. So the switches got here Friday, and alas, they are _not quite_ the right thing. They are very close, however - they have the bent face-plate, with the latch, and the triangular side plates with the holes at the tips for the pivots of the toggle (actuator, is I guess the formal name). They are also the same size (facing them - i.e. side-side, both directions). The only thing that's wrong is that the distance between the switch body, and the top of the bent face-plate, is too far. This, alas, means not only that it won't fit into existing holder frames on front consoles, but they also interfere with the installation of the DEC custom toggles (actuators). However, they are _so close_ that it's possible that C+K can produce some semi-custom ones with the right distance. (I've had a good look through the C+K 7000 series catalog, and all of the current snap-in panel ones have the taller offset.) Maybe they even still have the tooling, and it's only a special order. Anyway, I will call C+K on Monday, and see what I can find out. Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Nov 1 10:31:32 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 16:31:32 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> <5635342F.7050301@btinternet.com> <5635BEF0.3050306@btinternet.com> <23820D6B-8565-452D-85E9-D9B05BCBDD0E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <56363E64.4010601@btinternet.com> Hang on that sounds familiar. I worked at a company that sold Intel Development systems. That sounds like one of them Rod On 01/11/15 14:18, tony duell wrote: >> One problem with a front panel on an S100 machine - or any microprocessor-based >> machine - is getting access to the program counter so you can tell it to start running >> at some arbitrary address. The Altair/IMSAI panels resolved this with a hack, jamming >> a jump instruction into the processor data lines (not the S100 bus data lines) via a >> special connector to a special processor card. > Although not S100, the Intellec MCS8i was a 8080 machine with a front panel. There was > no hardware way to start the processor at a particular address (No logic to jam a jump > instruction onto the data bus, for example). You did have a reset switch. So what you did > was take the bus over from the processor (thus effectively halting the latter), toggle a > jump instruction with the appropriate address into the first 3 bytes of RAM, then reset, and > give the bus back to the processor. That was even the way to start the ROM monitor program > > -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 1 10:35:05 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 16:35:05 -0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <051001d114ae$3803c050$a80b40f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <051a01d114c3$43a94500$cafbcf00$@ntlworld.com> > > > Maybe you can publish your schematic somwhere. It is much easier to > > > come > > up > > > with ideas to pin point problems if we all view the same schematic. > > > I > > think it > > > would be possible to identify the problem without comparing the two > > > PSUs > > at > > > least in this case where there is some kind of fundamental problem. > > > > I do intend to publish the schematics, but right now I am pretty sure > > they > > are: > > > > a) full of mistakes > > b) not drawn logically > > c) there are a couple of areas I couldn't trace without major surgery > > on the board. > > > > Well. I guess that anything is better than nothing. > Here is a link to what I have now http://1drv.ms/1KQkTBp There are Eagle sch files, and PNG files for those who do not have Eagle. Regards Rob From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Sun Nov 1 10:45:01 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 08:45:01 -0800 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: <200D06F2-829B-470C-B19A-0B20E02990A4@optonline.net> References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> <056301d1133b$36fd6770$a4f83650$@yahoo.ca> <1AB31D36-2A46-46BA-9E3B-BF77C9DD8A23@optonline.net> <060b01d11425$67f10810$37d31830$@yahoo.ca> <200D06F2-829B-470C-B19A-0B20E02990A4@optonline.net> Message-ID: <063601d114c4$a772d000$f6587000$@yahoo.ca> I have tons of integer roms and spare keys. I am a veteran of that whole business. :) I recall trying the flush method on my Rev 4 here but it turned out to be fruitless on a lot of them. I think mine spent time in the Titanic's purser's safe. So value wise, could I go $1300-1800 without causing offence? I actually prefer the broken machines -- just fun to fix up. But also because the initial outlay hopefully is cheaper. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 3:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? Sticking keys are normal if it's a datanetics keyboard (original). You can recover the switches usually by flushing then with 91% ISP and lots of mechanical motion. I usually pull the key cap off and use a needle nose pliers about 50 times on each switch flushing it every so often using the ISP in an eye dropper. Even if there is a key or two you can't recover they can be found for about $10-15 each every so often on eBay. A set of Integer Roms on a language card will cost you about $150. Just remember when you usually see these early Apple II up for sale they usually aren't working correctly. Keep that in mind when you research prices. Early Apple II are like Rev-0 and Rev-1 ALTAIR, people usually don't sell them in perfect working condition unless you had some $$$$. So easier to buy one with potential and get to running. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 31, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Brad wrote: > > I had a closer look at the Rev 2. The keyboard is non functional (all the keys stick). The ROMs are applesoft, not integer basic (it has a ram add on card too). It powers up but nothing happens. Would that still have us in the $2k range? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey > Cohen > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 4:08 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? > > Yep. I have a spare blank datanetics PCB if you want to transfer your switches to a PCB which doesn't have repairs. This is for the version with the separate encoder daughter board. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: >> >> If the keyboard is a datanetics with the daughter board, I may have a spare empty PCB if you want it to transfer your switches. I'll check tonight. >> >> Where are you located? >> >> It actually should be a silver supply. I have a rev-4 with original silver supply. I elected to repair instead of replace my supply. >> >> So I would think about $1000 to 1500 when all together. The big question is that hole you mentioned was drilled into the case. Can you be more specific? That affects the value. >> >> Cheers, >> Corey >> >> corey cohen >> u??o? ???o? >> >>> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Brad wrote: >>> >>> My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it. Basically I tossed the clone board and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer basic ROMs) and I think PSU. PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the gold 2+ style one I have in there now. Not sure on that. The keyboard is the original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short jumper wires. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>> Corey Cohen >>> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? >>> >>> Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. >>> >>> Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. >>> >>> Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. >>> >>> Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. >>> >>> As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. >>> >>> Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Corey >>> >>> corey cohen >>> u??o? ???o? >>> >>>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, >>>> over the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen >>>> Rev 0 units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that >>>> seems to be a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc. >>>> Although, no always. Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this >>>> is all >>>> opinion): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is >>>> in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its >>>> original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization >>>> including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back >>>> of the case was done. I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer >>>> Basic chips. I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is >>>> fully functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. >>>> >>>> 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is >>>> in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? >>>> Is a Rev 2 anything special? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Sun Nov 1 10:45:01 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 08:45:01 -0800 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: <200D06F2-829B-470C-B19A-0B20E02990A4@optonline.net> References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> <056301d1133b$36fd6770$a4f83650$@yahoo.ca> <1AB31D36-2A46-46BA-9E3B-BF77C9DD8A23@optonline.net> <060b01d11425$67f10810$37d31830$@yahoo.ca> <200D06F2-829B-470C-B19A-0B20E02990A4@optonline.net> Message-ID: <063601d114c4$a772d000$f6587000$@yahoo.ca> I have tons of integer roms and spare keys. I am a veteran of that whole business. :) I recall trying the flush method on my Rev 4 here but it turned out to be fruitless on a lot of them. I think mine spent time in the Titanic's purser's safe. So value wise, could I go $1300-1800 without causing offence? I actually prefer the broken machines -- just fun to fix up. But also because the initial outlay hopefully is cheaper. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 3:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? Sticking keys are normal if it's a datanetics keyboard (original). You can recover the switches usually by flushing then with 91% ISP and lots of mechanical motion. I usually pull the key cap off and use a needle nose pliers about 50 times on each switch flushing it every so often using the ISP in an eye dropper. Even if there is a key or two you can't recover they can be found for about $10-15 each every so often on eBay. A set of Integer Roms on a language card will cost you about $150. Just remember when you usually see these early Apple II up for sale they usually aren't working correctly. Keep that in mind when you research prices. Early Apple II are like Rev-0 and Rev-1 ALTAIR, people usually don't sell them in perfect working condition unless you had some $$$$. So easier to buy one with potential and get to running. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 31, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Brad wrote: > > I had a closer look at the Rev 2. The keyboard is non functional (all the keys stick). The ROMs are applesoft, not integer basic (it has a ram add on card too). It powers up but nothing happens. Would that still have us in the $2k range? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey > Cohen > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 4:08 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? > > Yep. I have a spare blank datanetics PCB if you want to transfer your switches to a PCB which doesn't have repairs. This is for the version with the separate encoder daughter board. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: >> >> If the keyboard is a datanetics with the daughter board, I may have a spare empty PCB if you want it to transfer your switches. I'll check tonight. >> >> Where are you located? >> >> It actually should be a silver supply. I have a rev-4 with original silver supply. I elected to repair instead of replace my supply. >> >> So I would think about $1000 to 1500 when all together. The big question is that hole you mentioned was drilled into the case. Can you be more specific? That affects the value. >> >> Cheers, >> Corey >> >> corey cohen >> u??o? ???o? >> >>> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Brad wrote: >>> >>> My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it. Basically I tossed the clone board and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer basic ROMs) and I think PSU. PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the gold 2+ style one I have in there now. Not sure on that. The keyboard is the original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short jumper wires. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>> Corey Cohen >>> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? >>> >>> Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. >>> >>> Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. >>> >>> Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. >>> >>> Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. >>> >>> As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. >>> >>> Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Corey >>> >>> corey cohen >>> u??o? ???o? >>> >>>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, >>>> over the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen >>>> Rev 0 units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that >>>> seems to be a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc. >>>> Although, no always. Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this >>>> is all >>>> opinion): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is >>>> in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its >>>> original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization >>>> including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back >>>> of the case was done. I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer >>>> Basic chips. I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is >>>> fully functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. >>>> >>>> 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is >>>> in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? >>>> Is a Rev 2 anything special? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Nov 1 10:51:52 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 11:51:52 -0500 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 1, 2015, at 7:12 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Some of you may recall I have a faulty H7864 PSU, which failed a while ago > with a loud pop, but no obvious physical damage. I replaced the blown > transistor (on the primary side of the large transformer), but when I power > it on, the transistor does not switch and there is no output, so clearly > there is still a problem somewhere. > > > > I have been spending some time drawing schematics for almost the whole > thing. I am now at the point where I intend to compare it with a working > one, probing each one side by side, to see up to where it appears to be > working. It would be awkward to have two dummy loads, just for lack of > suitable equipment. Does anyone know if it is safe to run these PSUs with no > load? Would my testing be valid without a load? If it has a transistor at the primary side, and a high frequency transformer, it's a switching supply. Those want a load, usually. Especially the older ones. If it has a laminated iron transformer, big electrolytics for filtering, and transistors at the secondary side, it's probably a linear regulator supply. Those don't need a load. You may want to do full testing under load to observe correct regulation, but for initial testing you can test them without. Linear supplies are older; I think by the time of VAX you're likely to see switchers (with the possible exception of first generation stuff like the 780, I don't remember if those big supplies are linear or switchers). paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Nov 1 10:58:13 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 16:58:13 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <0F21A6E6-70C3-440C-8F81-612C0CCCF874@optonline.net> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> <5635342F.7050301@btinternet.com> <5635BEF0.3050306@btinternet.com> <23820D6B-8565-452D-85E9-D9B05BCBDD0E@cs.ubc.ca> <0F21A6E6-70C3-440C-8F81-612C0CCCF874@optonline.net> Message-ID: <563644A5.2080405@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Very interesting. So some did and some did not. I have just had another thought. I have a whole slew of DEC systems that have 80xx or Z80 processors. and run CP/M . Now nobody is going to hack a desktop case about but sneaking a flat cable out the back or through a drive blanking panel might be a non destructive access system. Regards Rod(PanelMan)Smallwood On 01/11/15 12:05, Jeff Galinat wrote: >> On Nov 1, 2015, at 3:13 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> >> The other way round I think, the Altair and IMSAI were the only S100 machines I recall OTTOMH which had blinkenlight panels. >> The vast majority of them didn't. Northstar & Cromemco as you say, Compu-Pro, Vector-Graphic, Processor Tech SOL, Poly 88, etc. : no blinken. >> >> One problem with a front panel on an S100 machine - or any microprocessor-based machine - is getting access to the program counter so you can tell it to start running at some arbitrary address. The Altair/IMSAI panels resolved this with a hack, jamming a jump instruction into the processor data lines (not the S100 bus data lines) via a special connector to a special processor card. >> >> > For the sake of completeness, the other S-100 machines I can think of with a full front panel were the Ithaca Intersystems DPS-1 and some BYT-8 machines. > Regards, > Jeff From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 1 11:37:00 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 17:37:00 -0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <052401d114cb$ea2bf140$be83d3c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning > Sent: 01 November 2015 16:52 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load > > > > On Nov 1, 2015, at 7:12 AM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > > Some of you may recall I have a faulty H7864 PSU, which failed a while > > ago with a loud pop, but no obvious physical damage. I replaced the > > blown transistor (on the primary side of the large transformer), but > > when I power it on, the transistor does not switch and there is no > > output, so clearly there is still a problem somewhere. > > > > > > > > I have been spending some time drawing schematics for almost the whole > > thing. I am now at the point where I intend to compare it with a > > working one, probing each one side by side, to see up to where it > > appears to be working. It would be awkward to have two dummy loads, > > just for lack of suitable equipment. Does anyone know if it is safe to > > run these PSUs with no load? Would my testing be valid without a load? > > If it has a transistor at the primary side, and a high frequency transformer, it's > a switching supply. Those want a load, usually. Especially the older ones. > > If it has a laminated iron transformer, big electrolytics for filtering, and > transistors at the secondary side, it's probably a linear regulator supply. Those > don't need a load. You may want to do full testing under load to observe > correct regulation, but for initial testing you can test them without. > > Linear supplies are older; I think by the time of VAX you're likely to see > switchers (with the possible exception of first generation stuff like the 780, I > don't remember if those big supplies are linear or switchers). > > paul Hmmm.... Until your email I was pretty confident this was a switcher. But your description of a linear PSU seems to fit. I have posted three photos of the main board here: http://1drv.ms/1KQkTBp can you tell from that what kind of PSU it is? The big TO-3 on the left is the one that I found had failed. The replacement does not appear to be switching, but I don't know why. Regards Rob From wulfman at wulfman.com Sun Nov 1 12:34:14 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 11:34:14 -0700 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <052401d114cb$ea2bf140$be83d3c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <052401d114cb$ea2bf140$be83d3c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56365B26.60301@wulfman.com> its a switcher. On 11/1/2015 10:37 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning >> Sent: 01 November 2015 16:52 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load >> >> >>> On Nov 1, 2015, at 7:12 AM, Robert Jarratt >> wrote: >>> Some of you may recall I have a faulty H7864 PSU, which failed a while >>> ago with a loud pop, but no obvious physical damage. I replaced the >>> blown transistor (on the primary side of the large transformer), but >>> when I power it on, the transistor does not switch and there is no >>> output, so clearly there is still a problem somewhere. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have been spending some time drawing schematics for almost the whole >>> thing. I am now at the point where I intend to compare it with a >>> working one, probing each one side by side, to see up to where it >>> appears to be working. It would be awkward to have two dummy loads, >>> just for lack of suitable equipment. Does anyone know if it is safe to >>> run these PSUs with no load? Would my testing be valid without a load? >> If it has a transistor at the primary side, and a high frequency > transformer, it's >> a switching supply. Those want a load, usually. Especially the older > ones. >> If it has a laminated iron transformer, big electrolytics for filtering, > and >> transistors at the secondary side, it's probably a linear regulator > supply. Those >> don't need a load. You may want to do full testing under load to observe >> correct regulation, but for initial testing you can test them without. >> >> Linear supplies are older; I think by the time of VAX you're likely to see >> switchers (with the possible exception of first generation stuff like the > 780, I >> don't remember if those big supplies are linear or switchers). >> >> paul > > Hmmm.... Until your email I was pretty confident this was a switcher. But > your description of a linear PSU seems to fit. I have posted three photos of > the main board here: http://1drv.ms/1KQkTBp can you tell from that what kind > of PSU it is? > > The big TO-3 on the left is the one that I found had failed. The replacement > does not appear to be switching, but I don't know why. > > Regards > > Rob > > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Nov 1 12:42:58 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 13:42:58 -0500 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <052401d114cb$ea2bf140$be83d3c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <052401d114cb$ea2bf140$be83d3c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9DA13FCE-E1DA-4EBF-A4A3-FE16930E4795@comcast.net> > On Nov 1, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > ... > Hmmm.... Until your email I was pretty confident this was a switcher. But > your description of a linear PSU seems to fit. I have posted three photos of > the main board here: http://1drv.ms/1KQkTBp can you tell from that what kind > of PSU it is? > > The big TO-3 on the left is the one that I found had failed. The replacement > does not appear to be switching, but I don't know why. I agree with Wulfman that it looks like a switcher. There's too much circuitry in there for a linear. Also, that pile of small electrolytics is typical for a switcher. That said, it's possible that there may be an auxiliary linear regulator in there. That's common for additional outputs with modest current needs, especially in older designs where the switching circuitry takes a lot of individual components. A TO-3 can isn't what I would expect to see in a switching-only supply. In other words, that particular transistor might be the pass transistor of a linear regulator. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 12:47:29 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:47:29 +0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com>, Message-ID: > > If it has a transistor at the primary side, and a high frequency transformer, it's a switching supply. > Those want a load, usually. Especially the older ones. If there are large-ish electrolytics (100's of uF) with a voltage rating around 200V and no reason to believe that there is a 200V output rail then it is very likely to be a switcher with those being the rectified mains smoothing capacitors. Some SMPSUs (Switchers -- it stands for Switch Mode Power Supply Unit) need a load, other's are happy without one. Occasionally DEC put the specification of the supply in the printset -- they did for the 11/730, and IIRC that supply is happy with no load on all outputs apart from something odd like the +12V rail. I've yet to find a DEC PSU that fails destructively if not loaded, it is more likely to just trip the overvoltaeg protection crowbar, shut down, then try to restart and repeat the cycle, tweeting as it goes > If it has a laminated iron transformer, big electrolytics for filtering, and transistors at the > secondary side, it's probably a linear regulator supply. Those don't need a load. You > may want to do full testing under load to observe correct regulation, but for initial testing > you can test them without. Be careful!. There is a third type of supply, and it's one that DEC used a lot, going back at least to 1970 (that is, it turns up in most older PDP11s, etc). This has a big laminated core mains transformer, rectifiers and smoothing and then _switching_ regualtors (not linear) to produce the right output voltages. As with all switchers, that type might need a load (but my experience is that the DEC ones don't). > Linear supplies are older; I think by the time of VAX you're likely to see switchers (with the > possible exception of first generation stuff like the 780, I don't remember if those big > supplies are linear or switchers). Certainly the 11/730 is a mains switcher (it rectifies the mains to get about 350V DC, then chops it). In fact it's 4 SMPSUs in that little box. The 11/780 draws a lot of power. I don't think they would have used linear regulators (which by definition are inefficient) in that machine. I would bet quite a lot that all MicroVAX PSUs are mains switchers Also watch out that DEC somethimes had a little linear PSU to power the SMPSU control circuitry, at least before the SMPSU had rattled into life. The control circuitry (oscillator, regualtor, etc) is on the _output side_ of the isolation barrier in such supplies, the drive signal is transformer-coupled to the base of the chopper transistor. Those turn up in all sorts of things, the VT100 being the most common example. I hate to say this, but DEC seemed to like complicated and unusual power supply designs, and I would not want to try to repair one without a good schematic. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 12:54:23 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:54:23 +0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <9DA13FCE-E1DA-4EBF-A4A3-FE16930E4795@comcast.net> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <052401d114cb$ea2bf140$be83d3c0$@ntlworld.com>, <9DA13FCE-E1DA-4EBF-A4A3-FE16930E4795@comcast.net> Message-ID: > That said, it's possible that there may be an auxiliary linear regulator in there. That's common > for additional outputs with modest current needs, especially in older designs where the > switching circuitry takes a lot of individual components. A TO-3 can isn't what I would expect > to see in a switching-only supply. In other words, that particular transistor might be the pass > transistor of a linear regulator. There are plenty of suitable chopper tramsistors in TO3 packages. The BU208 is the first one I think of (being this side of the Pond). I've just looked up the printset for the 11/730 PSU (mine will be on the bench soon I hope...). There are, as I said, 4 SMPSUs in there, 2 of them use choppers in TO220 packages, the other 2 use choppers in TO3 packages. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 1 13:52:38 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 19:52:38 -0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com>, Message-ID: <053101d114de$dcb1cc70$96156550$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 01 November 2015 18:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load > > > > > If it has a transistor at the primary side, and a high frequency transformer, > it's a switching supply. > > Those want a load, usually. Especially the older ones. > > If there are large-ish electrolytics (100's of uF) with a voltage rating around > 200V and no reason to believe that there is a 200V output rail then it is very > likely to be a switcher with those being the rectified mains smoothing > capacitors. > > Some SMPSUs (Switchers -- it stands for Switch Mode Power Supply Unit) need > a load, other's are happy without one. Occasionally DEC put the specification of > the supply in the printset -- they did for the 11/730, and IIRC that supply is > happy with no load on all outputs apart from something odd like the +12V rail. > I've yet to find a DEC PSU that fails destructively if not loaded, it is more likely > to just trip the overvoltaeg protection crowbar, shut down, then try to restart > and repeat the cycle, tweeting as it goes > > > > If it has a laminated iron transformer, big electrolytics for > > filtering, and transistors at the secondary side, it's probably a > > linear regulator supply. Those don't need a load. You may want to do > > full testing under load to observe correct regulation, but for initial testing you > can test them without. > > Be careful!. There is a third type of supply, and it's one that DEC used a lot, > going back at least to 1970 (that is, it turns up in most older PDP11s, etc). This > has a big laminated core mains transformer, rectifiers and smoothing and then > _switching_ regualtors (not linear) to produce the right output voltages. As with > all switchers, that type might need a load (but my experience is that the DEC > ones don't). > > > Linear supplies are older; I think by the time of VAX you're likely to > > see switchers (with the possible exception of first generation stuff > > like the 780, I don't remember if those big supplies are linear or switchers). > > Certainly the 11/730 is a mains switcher (it rectifies the mains to get about > 350V DC, then chops it). In fact it's 4 SMPSUs in that little box. > > The 11/780 draws a lot of power. I don't think they would have used linear > regulators (which by definition are inefficient) in that machine. > > I would bet quite a lot that all MicroVAX PSUs are mains switchers > > Also watch out that DEC somethimes had a little linear PSU to power the > SMPSU control circuitry, at least before the SMPSU had rattled into life. The > control circuitry (oscillator, regualtor, etc) is on the _output side_ of the > isolation barrier in such supplies, the drive signal is transformer-coupled to the > base of the chopper transistor. Those turn up in all sorts of things, the VT100 > being the most common example. > > I hate to say this, but DEC seemed to like complicated and unusual power > supply designs, and I would not want to try to repair one without a good > schematic. > You mentioned DEC PSUs, this one is actually made by ASTEC. I will use a dummy load and put it on an isolating transformer when using the scope. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 1 13:57:05 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 19:57:05 -0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <052401d114cb$ea2bf140$be83d3c0$@ntlworld.com>, <9DA13FCE-E1DA-4EBF-A4A3-FE16930E4795@comcast.net> Message-ID: <053201d114df$7be988a0$73bc99e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 01 November 2015 18:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load > > > > That said, it's possible that there may be an auxiliary linear > > regulator in there. That's common for additional outputs with modest > > current needs, especially in older designs where the switching > > circuitry takes a lot of individual components. A TO-3 can isn't what > > I would expect to see in a switching-only supply. In other words, that > particular transistor might be the pass transistor of a linear regulator. > > There are plenty of suitable chopper tramsistors in TO3 packages. The BU208 is > the first one I think of (being this side of the Pond). > This one is a D905. > I've just looked up the printset for the 11/730 PSU (mine will be on the bench > soon I hope...). There are, as I said, 4 SMPSUs in there, 2 of them use choppers > in TO220 packages, the other 2 use choppers in TO3 packages. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 13:54:27 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 19:54:27 +0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <053101d114de$dcb1cc70$96156550$@ntlworld.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com>, , <053101d114de$dcb1cc70$96156550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > You mentioned DEC PSUs, this one is actually made by ASTEC. I will use a Firstly, every Astec PSU I've seen has been a swticher. They probably did make linear PSUs, but not common... Secodnly, it may have been made to a DEC design (rather than just a specification). I believe you replaced the chopper transistor. Astec were, alas, notorious for using 'selected' transistors in some of their supplies. Often marked with a house number which I guess yours wasn't, but it is one to watch for. > dummy load and put it on an isolating transformer when using the scope. Good idea. Don't do what is suggested in the Philips P854 manual which is that if an isolating transformer is not available to disconnect the earth lead of the 'scope inside the plug and have the 'scope floating. The idea of a metal cased 'scope being a couple of hundred volts from local earth does worry me! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 14:00:43 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:00:43 +0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <053201d114df$7be988a0$73bc99e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <052401d114cb$ea2bf140$be83d3c0$@ntlworld.com>, <9DA13FCE-E1DA-4EBF-A4A3-FE16930E4795@comcast.net> , <053201d114df$7be988a0$73bc99e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: [Chopper transistor] > This one is a D905. I assume that's a 2SD905 (the '2S' is often left off the package). From the data I've seen that certainly could be used as a chopper transistor. -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 14:18:48 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 15:18:48 -0500 Subject: Front panels Message-ID: > > Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:11:29 -0700 > From: Charles Anthony > Subject: Front panels > > The front panel I want to build is for my DPS8-M (aka Honeywell 6180) > emulator. > > > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/09/22/multics-honeywell-6180-mainframe-panel-on-ebay/ > > > TIA, > > -- Charles > That is only one of two panels on the Honeywell processors. There was another one on the other CPU door. There is are three rollers with an encoding switchs to change what the lights were displaying. Moving the roller changed the text that was visible in the window below the light bulbs and told you what each light meant. -- Michael Thompson From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Nov 1 14:37:42 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:37:42 +0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56367816.2080506@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/11/2015 18:47, tony duell wrote: > I've yet to find a DEC PSU that fails destructively if not loaded, it > is more likely to just trip the overvoltaeg protection crowbar, shut > down, then try to restart and repeat the cycle, tweeting as it goes Then you've not come across the ones in TK50Z desktop cases (and a few other things). They don't like operating without a minimum load, without which various parts sacrifice themselves to protect the fuse. I once had to sort through a pallet load of them for repair. The bonus was I got to keep three, which now house an assortment of RX50s and small hard drives. -- Pete From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 14:50:07 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 15:50:07 -0500 Subject: VCF nonsense (was: VCF-Berlin, 2015) References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Brutman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 12:35 AM Subject: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015 > Hi Mike, > > I'm not annoyed and I'm not blocking you from > viewing anything. Talk to > the owner of the VC forum - Erik can help you, > it is his forum and his call. > On Oct 30, 2015 9:30 AM, "Mike Stein" > wrote: > >> Hi Jack, >> >> Unfortunately I can't access the pictures on >> VCF >> because I apparently annoyed the moderator Mike >> Brutman, but I really enjoyed the pics on >> Picasa; >> thanks for posting - always fun to see some of >> the >> European stuff. ----- Reply ----- For the record: Erik didn't cut me off from the various VCF resources, Mike did (as well as posting insults, telling me to f$ck myself etc., none of it becoming for a moderator IMO) Anybody interested can look it up; any further comments (if any) belong off-list, please. m From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 14:47:11 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:47:11 +0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <56367816.2080506@dunnington.plus.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> , <56367816.2080506@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > > Then you've not come across the ones in TK50Z desktop cases (and a few > other things). They don't like operating without a minimum load, No, probably not. Actually I may have one somewhere, but have never had to repair it, so have never run it without a load. Thanks for the warning though! > without which various parts sacrifice themselves to protect the fuse. I How unusual. My experience is that a transistor protected by an expensive fast-acting fuse will fail short-circuit, thus taking out the fuse as well. -tony From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 14:46:09 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 15:46:09 -0500 Subject: SCA drives - any interest? References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> Message-ID: <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> Just asking: Any interest in 80-pin SCA drives, Ultra 3 and Ultra320 in various capacities, both IBM and HP/Compaq 'caddies' ? m From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 15:47:20 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 16:47:20 -0500 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> <5635342F.7050301@btinternet.com> <5635BEF0.3050306@btinternet.com> <23820D6B-8565-452D-85E9-D9B05BCBDD0E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <33A14431E5C94192A6EE13E91FBEE6EC@310e2> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > One problem with a front panel on an S100 machine - or any > microprocessor-based machine - is getting access to the program > counter so you can tell it to start running at some arbitrary > address. The Altair/IMSAI panels resolved this with a hack, jamming a > jump instruction into the processor data lines (not the S100 bus data > lines) via a special connector to a special processor card. > > In general, even if you can bus master to put stuff into memory, > front panel functionality is pretty limited if you don't have control > ever execution. Regarding Cromemco, they did sell a blinkenlights Z-1 which was essentially a Cromemco backplane and cards in an IMSAI chassis. Their ZPU processor card does have several option jumpers to make it compatible with a front panel. m From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 1 16:12:45 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 14:12:45 -0800 Subject: PDP11 switches / was Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <20151101152102.838AD18C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151101152102.838AD18C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5200975E-0033-4855-A162-76223B6067BD@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Nov-01, at 7:21 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> I've ordered 10 7101J50-CQE2's from Online ... _Iff_ they fit into the >> old front panels, I'll let the list know. >> ... >> let's see if the 7101J50-C's fit, then we can discuss how to proceed. > > So the switches got here Friday, and alas, they are _not quite_ the right > thing. > > They are very close, however - they have the bent face-plate, with the latch, > and the triangular side plates with the holes at the tips for the pivots of > the toggle (actuator, is I guess the formal name). They are also the same > size (facing them - i.e. side-side, both directions). > > The only thing that's wrong is that the distance between the switch body, and > the top of the bent face-plate, is too far. This, alas, means not only that > it won't fit into existing holder frames on front consoles, but they also > interfere with the installation of the DEC custom toggles (actuators). > > However, they are _so close_ that it's possible that C+K can produce some > semi-custom ones with the right distance. (I've had a good look through the > C+K 7000 series catalog, and all of the current snap-in panel ones have the > taller offset.) Maybe they even still have the tooling, and it's only a > special order. > > Anyway, I will call C+K on Monday, and see what I can find out. If it helps any, here are what I expect are the pertinent pages from an original C&K catalog from 1977: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/ckswitches77/ The selection covers two categories, "Rocker and Lever Handle Switches" and "PC Mounted Toggle and Rocker Switches" They include all sorts of styles and measurements, so maybe you can discern whether something changed in C&K's specs from way back when. If there seems to be something missing or other pages needed let me know. Pardon the white-balance, I set the camera and thought they were coming out whiter. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Nov 1 16:20:04 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 22:20:04 +0000 Subject: PDP11 switches / was Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <5200975E-0033-4855-A162-76223B6067BD@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20151101152102.838AD18C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5200975E-0033-4855-A162-76223B6067BD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <56369014.9050203@btinternet.com> Thanks for your efforts. They seem to be PDP11 types. Has anybody had any luck with PDP -8 switches. Has 3D printing been considered.? Rod On 01/11/15 22:12, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Nov-01, at 7:21 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> I've ordered 10 7101J50-CQE2's from Online ... _Iff_ they fit into the >>> old front panels, I'll let the list know. >>> ... >>> let's see if the 7101J50-C's fit, then we can discuss how to proceed. >> So the switches got here Friday, and alas, they are _not quite_ the right >> thing. >> >> They are very close, however - they have the bent face-plate, with the latch, >> and the triangular side plates with the holes at the tips for the pivots of >> the toggle (actuator, is I guess the formal name). They are also the same >> size (facing them - i.e. side-side, both directions). >> >> The only thing that's wrong is that the distance between the switch body, and >> the top of the bent face-plate, is too far. This, alas, means not only that >> it won't fit into existing holder frames on front consoles, but they also >> interfere with the installation of the DEC custom toggles (actuators). >> >> However, they are _so close_ that it's possible that C+K can produce some >> semi-custom ones with the right distance. (I've had a good look through the >> C+K 7000 series catalog, and all of the current snap-in panel ones have the >> taller offset.) Maybe they even still have the tooling, and it's only a >> special order. >> >> Anyway, I will call C+K on Monday, and see what I can find out. > > > If it helps any, here are what I expect are the pertinent pages from an original C&K catalog from 1977: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/ckswitches77/ > > The selection covers two categories, "Rocker and Lever Handle Switches" and "PC Mounted Toggle and Rocker Switches" > They include all sorts of styles and measurements, so maybe you can discern whether something changed in C&K's specs from way back when. > > If there seems to be something missing or other pages needed let me know. > Pardon the white-balance, I set the camera and thought they were coming out whiter. > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 1 18:08:56 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:08:56 -0600 Subject: dec cabinet part available Message-ID: <000201d11502$ace483b0$06ad8b10$@classiccmp.org> I've been away from DEC stuff far too long, so I don't remember what this is called - but I'll describe it. The beige dec cabinets (corp cab?) that are wider than about 19 inches... the ones where there is the "normal" 19" rack and then to the left or the right there is a top to bottom, front to back, "plenum" about maybe 8 inches wide. What I have is the brown cover for that plenum. 52.5 tall, 7.5 wide, hex key quick-release at the top, two ears at the bottom. Come to think of it, I'm not 100% sure it is from a DEC cabinet but I am thinking it came off one of a few five foot tall beige dec racks all stuffed top to bottom with RA81's. Anywho, whatever it is from, I am sure I do not have the rack (nor the RA81's that came with) that it goes with any longer. I'm in a rather non-trivial project to clean out and organize the basement and I'd like to get rid of this. I'd hate to put it in the skip if someone looks at it as "the last unobtainium piece to finish off their restoration". If no one wants it, I'm going to snag the hex key quick-release mech for myself and pitch the rest. J From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 18:54:22 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 16:54:22 -0800 Subject: dec cabinet part available In-Reply-To: <000201d11502$ace483b0$06ad8b10$@classiccmp.org> References: <000201d11502$ace483b0$06ad8b10$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Jay West wrote: > I've been away from DEC stuff far too long, so I don't remember what this is > called - but I'll describe it. > > The beige dec cabinets (corp cab?) that are wider than about 19 inches... > the ones where there is the "normal" 19" rack and then to the left or the > right there is a top to bottom, front to back, "plenum" about maybe 8 inches > wide. What I have is the brown cover for that plenum. 52.5 tall, 7.5 wide, > hex key quick-release at the top, two ears at the bottom. Come to think of > it, I'm not 100% sure it is from a DEC cabinet but I am thinking it came off > one of a few five foot tall beige dec racks all stuffed top to bottom with > RA81's. That sounds like a it could be from a taller version of the H9645 cabinet that is shown on the front of the PDP-11 Systems & Options Catalog July 1983 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/catalogs/ED-25116-18_PDP-11_Systems_and_Options_Catalog_Jul83.pdf I have one of those cabinets that used to hold a PDP-11/44 (which I regret selling to someone else on this list a dozen or so years ago). On my cabinet the panel on the left is about 36 inches tall. It's also beige, not brown, but it does have the hex key fastener at the top of the panel. From cube1 at charter.net Sun Nov 1 19:02:10 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 19:02:10 -0600 Subject: RF08/RS08 photos and panel measurements (Re: RK11-C Panel) In-Reply-To: References: <20151027002513.298F618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56328156.7070300@charter.net> <56328236.5090009@btinternet.com> <5E0DAD45-DCDD-4B2A-BB27-A8CA623F7F69@charter.net> Message-ID: <5636B612.6070804@charter.net> On 10/30/2015 8:07 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2015-10-30 13:54 GMT+01:00 Jay Jaeger : > >> No, not looking for a reproduction. Just posted it in case it would help >> folks with a possible RK11-C display panel concept. >> > > Interesting. We also have a RF08 / RS08 combo. It came with two PDP-8/L > machines. I am not sure if both PDP-8/L CPUs were connected to the RF08 > simultaneously or how it was connected once upon a time since all cabling > has been removed prior to us getting to it. The front panel look exactly > the same. The drive and controller sits in a full height cabinet with the > drive in the middle and the controller at the top. That matches the arrangement in the document I referred to. I doubt very much that they would have both been connected. Presumably just one of them. The manual I had might give you some clues - according to the manual it is compatible with an PDP-8/I, PDP-8/L, LINC-8 and PDP-12. So it is probably just a matter of connecting it to the 8/L on the bus properly and making sure the bus is properly terminated. See Figure 2-5 in the doc, and compare the signals with the 8/L bus connectors, I suppose. > > What is the plan with your RF08/ RS08? Is it possible to get it complete or > is just parts? The RS08 seems to be a DF32 on steroids. The question is if > it would be possible to have our unit working some day? Anyone tried to get > these things to run? > I would think you could probably get yours working - if the platter and heads are OK. When I was younger and more foolish, I didn't realize that I had basically the entire thing. So I disassembled the drive itself. ( 8P Stoooopid mistake, I know). I still have the platter, motor, shock mounts etc., but I don't think I have the housing cover or the base plate - though I haven't gone and looked for them. I think I have all of the electronics, power supplies, some of the heads (but probably not all of them). So, I don't have any hope of getting mine running. I would be happy to part with it at a reasonable price, but am not really interested in shipping them - it would be a very time consuming endeavor for me, and likely very expensive for any buyer to ship the pieces. JRJ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 1 19:17:14 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 19:17:14 -0600 Subject: dec cabinet part available In-Reply-To: References: <000201d11502$ace483b0$06ad8b10$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001d1150c$354dd860$9fe98920$@classiccmp.org> Glen wrote... On my cabinet the panel on the left is about 36 inches tall. It's also beige, not brown, but it does have the hex key fastener at the top of the panel. I am not sure, been too many years, but I think the cover on the front (which went with the cabinet) was beige, and what I have covers the rear and is brown. J From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 23:12:46 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 23:12:46 -0600 Subject: SCA drives - any interest? In-Reply-To: <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> Message-ID: <20151102051246.GS8939@gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 01, 2015, Mike Stein wrote: > Just asking: Any interest in 80-pin SCA drives, Ultra 3 and Ultra320 in > various capacities, both IBM and HP/Compaq 'caddies' ? Are those the kind of drives that are appropriate for use at a Renaissance Faire? -- Eric Christopherson From drb at msu.edu Mon Nov 2 00:23:28 2015 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 01:23:28 -0500 Subject: Seeking equipment storage help in Phoenix Message-ID: <20151102062328.194D1A5861D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Jay West and I are working on rescuing a minicomputer system in the Phoenix area. The equipment will eventually be shipped to one of us, but for right now we need to get it out of the building where it currently resides, and into temporary storage. If we have to, we'll use a u-store facility, but we're hoping a collector near Phoenix might be willing to store the system for a few months until we can arrange onward movement, to reduce the wallet pain. We think we have transport lined up to move it to your location, though if you happen to have a liftgate truck and be a nice guy or gal, ... ;) Size: the system is basically two racks, plus boxes for cables, manuals, etc. The whole pile should be less than three racks worth of floor space. Total weight is about 1400 pounds. Time frame: the equipment needs to be out of its current location before the end of November. We'll commit to moving the equipment onward within six months. If you think you might be able to help, drop Jay (jwest at classiccmp.org) or me a line. Thanks! De From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 01:00:27 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 02:00:27 -0500 Subject: SCA drives - any interest? References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> <20151102051246.GS8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2758749D6BF2474C89B7A603EB0AC95F@310e2> I don't understand the question; what kind of drives are you talking about? These are fairly high performance hot-swappable SCSI server drives, 10,000 or 15,000 RPM with transfer rates of 160 or 320 MB/s, probably still in use in some installations out there. I scrapped the servers some time ago and am considering whether it's worth taking the time to set up a system and securely wipe the drives or just take the security hammer and drill to them and send them off to the scrapper. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Christopherson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 12:12 AM Subject: Re: SCA drives - any interest? > On Sun, Nov 01, 2015, Mike Stein wrote: >> Just asking: Any interest in 80-pin SCA drives, Ultra 3 and Ultra320 in >> various capacities, both IBM and HP/Compaq 'caddies' ? > > Are those the kind of drives that are appropriate for use at a > Renaissance Faire? > > -- > Eric Christopherson From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 19:00:31 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 17:00:31 -0800 Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:11:29 -0700 > > From: Charles Anthony > > Subject: Front panels > > > > The front panel I want to build is for my DPS8-M (aka Honeywell 6180) > > emulator. > > > > > > > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/09/22/multics-honeywell-6180-mainframe-panel-on-ebay/ > > > > > > TIA, > > > > -- Charles > > > > That is only one of two panels on the Honeywell processors. There was > another one on the other CPU door. There is are three rollers with an > encoding switchs to change what the lights were displaying. Moving the > roller changed the text that was visible in the window below the light > bulbs and told you what each light meant. > > For my purposes, I'm interested in the lower half of the pictured panel -- the "Display" -- which showed the PC and registers. My emulated panel can be seen at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkjvx5A7vJw. -- Charles From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Nov 2 05:37:52 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 12:37:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: Emulex QD32 In-Reply-To: <56339CCF.8070806@charter.net> References: <56339CCF.8070806@charter.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I also have a QD32. I have Emulex diagnostics, but on a TK50, and I > don't have an image, nor do I have any diagnostic documentation. > > However, when I ran the diagnostic (many YEARS ago) on my uVax II > (FVD32M) it was self-explanatory. [...] I wish it were true in my case. I don't even get it running under SIMH. Is it possible that the error is because of the monitor not seeing the QD32? At least if I netboot NetBSD it doesn't see the QD32 either, only the RQDX3. But OTOH I can enter >>> B DUB2 from the console and it tries to boot from the SMD disk (which fails because of read errors). This is the SIMH output (running the microvax2 binary with the patched ka630.bin image): (and yes, the monitor identifies the CPU as MicroVAX I ...) sim> att rq3 emulex_qd32_diag.img sim> b cpu KA630-A.V1.3 Performing normal system tests. 5..4..3.. Tests completed. >>> b dua3 2..1..0.. Emulex VAX Monitor V1.2 MicroVAX I 16-SEP-1985 09:00:00 uEVM>LOAD FVD32M --->ERROR: COULD NOT LOAD PROGRAM; PHYSICAL READ ERROR I think it would be great to have your TK50 imaged in some way and have it e.g. on bitsavers. Christian From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 07:20:12 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 14:20:12 +0100 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <051a01d114c3$43a94500$cafbcf00$@ntlworld.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <051001d114ae$3803c050$a80b40f0$@ntlworld.com> <051a01d114c3$43a94500$cafbcf00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: 2015-11-01 17:35 GMT+01:00 Robert Jarratt : > > > > > > Maybe you can publish your schematic somwhere. It is much easier to > > > > come > > > up > > > > with ideas to pin point problems if we all view the same schematic. > > > > I > > > think it > > > > would be possible to identify the problem without comparing the two > > > > PSUs > > > at > > > > least in this case where there is some kind of fundamental problem. > > > > > > I do intend to publish the schematics, but right now I am pretty sure > > > they > > > are: > > > > > > a) full of mistakes > > > b) not drawn logically > > > c) there are a couple of areas I couldn't trace without major surgery > > > on the board. > > > > > > > Well. I guess that anything is better than nothing. > > > > > Here is a link to what I have now http://1drv.ms/1KQkTBp > > There are Eagle sch files, and PNG files for those who do not have Eagle. > I took a quick look at the schematics and I had hard times following the schematics, but I guess I asked for it. Anyway. I think that the signal is produced somewhere behind the transformer T301 and then passes through a number of driver stages (Q405 and Q408) until it gets to the Q301. You could check the signal on T301 and onwards. The designation for the connector of the small boards are all X1 while there X1, X2, X3 mentioned on one schematic so I am a little bit confused. Then there are four small boards which presumably have Xn connectors but I can only find three in your schematics. But this is maybe a result of the fact the schematics are incomplete or me misunderstanding something. The circuitry C403 and R407 doesn't make sense to me. It has to be a drawing mistake. Maybe it is a good idea to to focus on one area and to make that part of the schematic complete. Like the part surrounding the main switch transistor. Then try to follow the signal back through T301 and trace that part out. If the PWM signal is produced on the secondary side then there has to be some small PSU providing power to this circuitry at startup so that the PSU can bootstrap. But I cannot see where this is. Good Luck! /Mattis > > Regards > > Rob > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 2 07:40:58 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 08:40:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: SCA drives - any interest? In-Reply-To: <2758749D6BF2474C89B7A603EB0AC95F@310e2> References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> <20151102051246.GS8939@gmail.com> <2758749D6BF2474C89B7A603EB0AC95F@310e2> Message-ID: <201511021340.IAA28141@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> [top-posting and no-trimming damage repaired manually] >>> Just asking: Any interest in 80-pin SCA drives, Ultra 3 [...] >> Are those the kind of drives that are appropriate for use at a >> Renaissance Faire? > I don't understand the question; what kind of drives are you talking > about? Methinks Eric is playing on an alternative meaning of SCA, specifically, the Society for Creative Anachronism, members of which frequently attend - and sometimes hold - renaissance fair(e)s. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Nov 2 07:56:59 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 14:56:59 +0100 (CET) Subject: Emulex QD32 In-Reply-To: References: <56339CCF.8070806@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 2015, Christian Corti wrote: > I wish it were true in my case. I don't even get it running under SIMH. > Is it possible that the error is because of the monitor not seeing the QD32? > At least if I netboot NetBSD it doesn't see the QD32 either, only the RQDX3. [...] Playing a bit with the QD32 I've found out that it has the "big" EPROM, i.e. the 27256 32kB ROM, and this one *includes* the diagnostic routines. So there are the instructions how to enter the built-in routines: U I D/P/W 20001F40 20 D/P/L 20088000 80000000 D/P/L 20088004 80000001 D/P/W 200000EC 1 D/P/W 200000EE 3003 D * 4401 S 80 And here we go: Firmware-Resident Diagnostic Copyright (c) 1988 Emulex Corporation all rights reserved QD32 controller, firmware revision level K IP address = 160354 Option menu 1 - Self Test Loop 2 - Format 3 - Verify 4 - Format and Verify 5 - Data Reliability Test 6 - Format, Verify, and Data Reliability Test 7 - Read Only Test 8 - List Known Units 9 - Replace Block 10 - Display Novram 11 - Edit / Load Novram Enter option number: Christian From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 2 09:37:41 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 07:37:41 -0800 Subject: SCA drives - any interest? In-Reply-To: <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> Message-ID: <68700557-D9B0-4394-B25E-A283EA366ADB@aracnet.com> On Nov 1, 2015, at 12:46 PM, "Mike Stein" wrote: > Just asking: Any interest in 80-pin SCA drives, Ultra 3 and Ultra320 in various capacities, both IBM and HP/Compaq 'caddies' ? > > m I don't need any, but if anyone can get their hands on JBOD boxes that use these, they're fantastic drives. I was lucky enough to get several Andataco 3-Drive JBOD boxes (I passed on the 7-drive units as to big, heavy, noisy, and power hungry). These are great for OpenVMS/Alpha and Sun systems, and provide a cheap way to get decent sized SCSI drives, as most people can't use them. I had a couple of the 3-Drive units and a DEC BA350 shelf running in our dining room for several years (the BA350 was on a VAX). My most recent score was some brand new 300GB SCA drives. :-) They'll allow me to take my Alpha down to two HD's and drastically shrink its power requirements. Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 09:57:29 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 07:57:29 -0800 Subject: Emulex QD32 In-Reply-To: References: <56339CCF.8070806@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 5:56 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > Playing a bit with the QD32 I've found out that it has the "big" EPROM, i.e. > the 27256 32kB ROM, and this one *includes* the diagnostic routines. > > So there are the instructions how to enter the built-in routines: > > U > I > D/P/W 20001F40 20 > D/P/L 20088000 80000000 > D/P/L 20088004 80000001 > D/P/W 200000EC 1 > D/P/W 200000EE 3003 > D * 4401 > S 80 > > And here we go: > > Firmware-Resident Diagnostic > Copyright (c) 1988 Emulex Corporation all rights reserved That looks like the same magic F.R.D. spell shared by at least the QD21 and QD33 as documented in section 4.7.3 Starting F.R.D. on a MicroVAX II and a GPX Workstation in these manuals: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/QD2151002-J_QD21_Jun90.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/QD3351002-M_QD33_Dec90.pdf Helpful that they kept that consistent across multiple controllers. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 10:54:57 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:54:57 -0500 Subject: SCA drives - any interest? References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> <68700557-D9B0-4394-B25E-A283EA366ADB@aracnet.com> Message-ID: Thanks everyone for your feedback. Since there may be sensitive data on them I have to either securely wipe them or destroy them; I did just find a couple of Proliant servers that somehow escaped my purge though, so wiping them may not be as big a PITA as I feared. Looks like most (~10) are 18.5GB 10KRPM 160 MB/s Ultra3 units, 4 or 5 146GB Ultra320s and a few in between. In case anyone is looking for the 'caddies' it looks like they're mostly HP/Compaq, including several dummies; I scrapped more IBM servers than HP, but to my surprise I only found two IBM units. I've noted the folks who expressed interest and I'll post again if/when I decide to test & wipe them; thanks again! m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 10:37 AM Subject: Re: SCA drives - any interest? On Nov 1, 2015, at 12:46 PM, "Mike Stein" wrote: > Just asking: Any interest in 80-pin SCA drives, Ultra 3 and Ultra320 in > various capacities, both IBM and HP/Compaq 'caddies' ? > > m I don't need any, but if anyone can get their hands on JBOD boxes that use these, they're fantastic drives. I was lucky enough to get several Andataco 3-Drive JBOD boxes (I passed on the 7-drive units as to big, heavy, noisy, and power hungry). These are great for OpenVMS/Alpha and Sun systems, and provide a cheap way to get decent sized SCSI drives, as most people can't use them. I had a couple of the 3-Drive units and a DEC BA350 shelf running in our dining room for several years (the BA350 was on a VAX). My most recent score was some brand new 300GB SCA drives. :-) They'll allow me to take my Alpha down to two HD's and drastically shrink its power requirements. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 2 12:42:02 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:42:02 -0800 Subject: SCA drives - any interest? In-Reply-To: References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> <68700557-D9B0-4394-B25E-A283EA366ADB@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <5637AE7A.4020201@sydex.com> On 11/02/2015 08:54 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > In case anyone is looking for the 'caddies' it looks like they're > mostly HP/Compaq, including several dummies; I scrapped more IBM > servers than HP, but to my surprise I only found two IBM units. The nice thing about SCA drives is that adapters for narrow- or wide-SCSI are/used to be available. I've run SCA drives with old Power Macintoshes, for example. I don't know if it's still true, but high-performance SCA drives do tend to run pretty hot. --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 13:05:06 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 14:05:06 -0500 Subject: SCA drives - any interest? References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> <68700557-D9B0-4394-B25E-A283EA366ADB@aracnet.com> <5637AE7A.4020201@sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 1:42 PM Subject: Re: SCA drives - any interest? > On 11/02/2015 08:54 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> In case anyone is looking for the 'caddies' it looks like they're >> mostly HP/Compaq, including several dummies; I scrapped more IBM >> servers than HP, but to my surprise I only found two IBM units. > > The nice thing about SCA drives is that adapters for narrow- or wide-SCSI > are/used to be available. I've run SCA drives with old Power Macintoshes, for > example. > > I don't know if it's still true, but high-performance SCA drives do tend to > run pretty hot. > > --Chuck ----- Reply ----- Yeah, can't find it at the moment of course but I do have an 80<>68 pin adapter; just need a cable, controller, system and time... m From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Nov 1 15:50:40 2015 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 13:50:40 -0800 Subject: VCF nonsense (was: VCF-Berlin, 2015) In-Reply-To: References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> Message-ID: And the last time you decided to litigate this topic here, I also told you to talk to Erik. That was just a few weeks ago. I have no objections to you pursuing and enjoying your hobby. I have moved on. Talk to Erik about undoing the ban at VCF and you can move on to. I have already told Erik that the ban should be lifted and I have no objections. Or, you can continue to keep bringing it up here and then pointing out how it doesn't belong here. On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Brutman" < > mbbrutman at brutman.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 12:35 AM > Subject: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015 > > > Hi Mike, >> >> I'm not annoyed and I'm not blocking you from >> viewing anything. Talk to >> the owner of the VC forum - Erik can help you, >> it is his forum and his call. >> On Oct 30, 2015 9:30 AM, "Mike Stein" >> wrote: >> >> Hi Jack, >>> >>> Unfortunately I can't access the pictures on >>> VCF >>> because I apparently annoyed the moderator Mike >>> Brutman, but I really enjoyed the pics on >>> Picasa; >>> thanks for posting - always fun to see some of >>> the >>> European stuff. >>> >> > ----- Reply ----- > > For the record: Erik didn't cut me off from the > various VCF resources, Mike did (as well as > posting insults, telling me to f$ck myself etc., > none of it becoming for a moderator IMO) > > Anybody interested can look it up; any further > comments (if any) belong off-list, please. > > m > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 2 14:35:38 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:35:38 -0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <051001d114ae$3803c050$a80b40f0$@ntlworld.com> <051a01d114c3$43a94500$cafbcf00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <062901d115ae$089636d0$19c2a470$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind > Sent: 02 November 2015 13:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load > > 2015-11-01 17:35 GMT+01:00 Robert Jarratt : > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you can publish your schematic somwhere. It is much easier > > > > > to come > > > > up > > > > > with ideas to pin point problems if we all view the same schematic. > > > > > I > > > > think it > > > > > would be possible to identify the problem without comparing the > > > > > two PSUs > > > > at > > > > > least in this case where there is some kind of fundamental problem. > > > > > > > > I do intend to publish the schematics, but right now I am pretty > > > > sure they > > > > are: > > > > > > > > a) full of mistakes > > > > b) not drawn logically > > > > c) there are a couple of areas I couldn't trace without major > > > > surgery on the board. > > > > > > > > > > Well. I guess that anything is better than nothing. > > > > > > > > > Here is a link to what I have now http://1drv.ms/1KQkTBp > > > > There are Eagle sch files, and PNG files for those who do not have Eagle. > > > > I took a quick look at the schematics and I had hard times following the > schematics, but I guess I asked for it. I did warn you! :-) :-), but thanks for looking and trying to make sense of them. > > Anyway. I think that the signal is produced somewhere behind the transformer > T301 and then passes through a number of driver stages (Q405 and Q408) until > it gets to the Q301. You could check the signal on T301 and onwards. The > designation for the connector of the small boards are all > X1 while there X1, X2, X3 mentioned on one schematic so I am a little bit > confused. Then there are four small boards which presumably have Xn > connectors but I can only find three in your schematics. But this is maybe a > result of the fact the schematics are incomplete or me misunderstanding > something. Yes, I wasn't very disciplined with the labelling. Basically on the big schematic, called Secondary I have drawn the connectors for each of the riser boards. The text near the connector identifies which riser board it is the connector for and the connector schematic only has one connector, but it will always be called X1, I didn't make it correspond to the Secondary schematic. I will fix this. Note also that the small riser on the primary side is included in the Primary Control schematic, I didn't do a separate schematic, which was a mistake I think. > The circuitry C403 and R407 doesn't make sense to me. It has to be > a drawing mistake. Thanks, I will check this. I have found lots of mistakes, I am sure this is another one. > > Maybe it is a good idea to to focus on one area and to make that part of the > schematic complete. Like the part surrounding the main switch transistor. Then > try to follow the signal back through T301 and trace that part out. Yes, I agree, the Primary Control is the one where the incorrect operation seems to be happening, Q301 does not appear to be switching. I think this schematic is as complete as I can make it, although it could still have mistakes.... Some time ago I got a scope on Q301, and I could see the b-e never went high enough to switch it on. There were some very short and very low pulses every 40us, but that was all. When I compared this to the working one, I could see a signal, still every 40us, but definitely switching the transistor on during the cycle. > > If the PWM signal is produced on the secondary side then there has to be some > small PSU providing power to this circuitry at startup so that the PSU can > bootstrap. But I cannot see where this is. > > Good Luck! > > /Mattis > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 14:48:22 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 15:48:22 -0500 Subject: VCF nonsense (was: VCF-Berlin, 2015) References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> Message-ID: <9B56874CD6904B31A2A90C58D58ECF1E@310e2> I only meant to point out that you have to be a VCF member to see Jack's pictures and that I couldn't access them because I'd been permanently banned; the ban itself, whether it should be lifted etc. definitely don't belong here and I apologize for rising to the bait. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Brutman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 4:50 PM Subject: Re: VCF nonsense (was: VCF-Berlin, 2015) > And the last time you decided to litigate this topic here, I also told you > to talk to Erik. That was just a few weeks ago. > > I have no objections to you pursuing and enjoying your hobby. I have moved > on. Talk to Erik about undoing the ban at VCF and you can move on to. I > have already told Erik that the ban should be lifted and I have no > objections. > > Or, you can continue to keep bringing it up here and then pointing out how > it doesn't belong here. > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Brutman" < >> mbbrutman at brutman.com> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >> Posts" >> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 12:35 AM >> Subject: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015 >> >> >> Hi Mike, >>> >>> I'm not annoyed and I'm not blocking you from >>> viewing anything. Talk to >>> the owner of the VC forum - Erik can help you, >>> it is his forum and his call. >>> On Oct 30, 2015 9:30 AM, "Mike Stein" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jack, >>>> >>>> Unfortunately I can't access the pictures on >>>> VCF >>>> because I apparently annoyed the moderator Mike >>>> Brutman, but I really enjoyed the pics on >>>> Picasa; >>>> thanks for posting - always fun to see some of >>>> the >>>> European stuff. >>>> >>> >> ----- Reply ----- >> >> For the record: Erik didn't cut me off from the >> various VCF resources, Mike did (as well as >> posting insults, telling me to f$ck myself etc., >> none of it becoming for a moderator IMO) >> >> Anybody interested can look it up; any further >> comments (if any) belong off-list, please. >> >> m >> >> From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 2 15:05:04 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:05:04 -0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <062901d115ae$089636d0$19c2a470$@ntlworld.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <051001d114ae$3803c050$a80b40f0$@ntlworld.com> <051a01d114c3$43a94500$cafbcf00$@ntlworld.com> <062901d115ae$089636d0$19c2a470$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <062a01d115b2$2552cb40$6ff861c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 02 November 2015 20:36 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > Mattis Lind > > Sent: 02 November 2015 13:20 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load > > > > 2015-11-01 17:35 GMT+01:00 Robert Jarratt : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you can publish your schematic somwhere. It is much > > > > > > easier to come > > > > > up > > > > > > with ideas to pin point problems if we all view the same schematic. > > > > > > I > > > > > think it > > > > > > would be possible to identify the problem without comparing > > > > > > the two PSUs > > > > > at > > > > > > least in this case where there is some kind of fundamental problem. > > > > > > > > > > I do intend to publish the schematics, but right now I am pretty > > > > > sure they > > > > > are: > > > > > > > > > > a) full of mistakes > > > > > b) not drawn logically > > > > > c) there are a couple of areas I couldn't trace without major > > > > > surgery on the board. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well. I guess that anything is better than nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a link to what I have now http://1drv.ms/1KQkTBp > > > > > > There are Eagle sch files, and PNG files for those who do not have Eagle. > > > > > > > I took a quick look at the schematics and I had hard times following > > the schematics, but I guess I asked for it. > > > I did warn you! :-) :-), but thanks for looking and trying to make sense of them. > > > > > Anyway. I think that the signal is produced somewhere behind the > > transformer > > T301 and then passes through a number of driver stages (Q405 and Q408) > > until it gets to the Q301. You could check the signal on T301 and > > onwards. The designation for the connector of the small boards are all > > X1 while there X1, X2, X3 mentioned on one schematic so I am a little > > bit confused. Then there are four small boards which presumably have > > Xn connectors but I can only find three in your schematics. But this > > is maybe a result of the fact the schematics are incomplete or me > > misunderstanding something. > > Yes, I wasn't very disciplined with the labelling. Basically on the big schematic, > called Secondary I have drawn the connectors for each of the riser boards. The > text near the connector identifies which riser board it is the connector for and > the connector schematic only has one connector, but it will always be called X1, > I didn't make it correspond to the Secondary schematic. I will fix this. Note also > that the small riser on the primary side is included in the Primary Control > schematic, I didn't do a separate schematic, which was a mistake I think. > > > > The circuitry C403 and R407 doesn't make sense to me. It has to be a > > drawing mistake. > > Thanks, I will check this. I have found lots of mistakes, I am sure this is another > one. > > > > > Maybe it is a good idea to to focus on one area and to make that part > > of the schematic complete. Like the part surrounding the main switch > > transistor. Then try to follow the signal back through T301 and trace that part > out. > > > Yes, I agree, the Primary Control is the one where the incorrect operation > seems to be happening, Q301 does not appear to be switching. I think this > schematic is as complete as I can make it, although it could still have > mistakes.... > > Some time ago I got a scope on Q301, and I could see the b-e never went high > enough to switch it on. There were some very short and very low pulses every > 40us, but that was all. When I compared this to the working one, I could see a > signal, still every 40us, but definitely switching the transistor on during the > cycle. > > > > > If the PWM signal is produced on the secondary side then there has to > > be some small PSU providing power to this circuitry at startup so that > > the PSU can bootstrap. But I cannot see where this is. > > > > Good Luck! > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > I have just uploaded all the corrections. So the connector names on the risers should now correspond. I have also corrected the area on the primary control module around C403 and R407. Regards Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 2 15:33:04 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:33:04 +0000 Subject: VCF nonsense In-Reply-To: <9B56874CD6904B31A2A90C58D58ECF1E@310e2> References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <9B56874CD6904B31A2A90C58D58ECF1E@310e2> Message-ID: <5637D690.7010902@btinternet.com> Whats all the fuss about.? What did the poor guy do to be banned? Rod On 02/11/15 20:48, Mike Stein wrote: > I only meant to point out that you have to be a VCF member to see > Jack's pictures and that I couldn't access them because I'd been > permanently banned; the ban itself, whether it should be lifted etc. > definitely don't belong here and I apologize for rising to the bait. > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Brutman" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 4:50 PM > Subject: Re: VCF nonsense (was: VCF-Berlin, 2015) > > >> And the last time you decided to litigate this topic here, I also >> told you >> to talk to Erik. That was just a few weeks ago. >> >> I have no objections to you pursuing and enjoying your hobby. I have >> moved >> on. Talk to Erik about undoing the ban at VCF and you can move on >> to. I >> have already told Erik that the ban should be lifted and I have no >> objections. >> >> Or, you can continue to keep bringing it up here and then pointing >> out how >> it doesn't belong here. >> >> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Brutman" < >>> mbbrutman at brutman.com> >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >>> Posts" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 12:35 AM >>> Subject: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015 >>> >>> >>> Hi Mike, >>>> >>>> I'm not annoyed and I'm not blocking you from >>>> viewing anything. Talk to >>>> the owner of the VC forum - Erik can help you, >>>> it is his forum and his call. >>>> On Oct 30, 2015 9:30 AM, "Mike Stein" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Jack, >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately I can't access the pictures on >>>>> VCF >>>>> because I apparently annoyed the moderator Mike >>>>> Brutman, but I really enjoyed the pics on >>>>> Picasa; >>>>> thanks for posting - always fun to see some of >>>>> the >>>>> European stuff. >>>>> >>>> >>> ----- Reply ----- >>> >>> For the record: Erik didn't cut me off from the >>> various VCF resources, Mike did (as well as >>> posting insults, telling me to f$ck myself etc., >>> none of it becoming for a moderator IMO) >>> >>> Anybody interested can look it up; any further >>> comments (if any) belong off-list, please. >>> >>> m >>> >>> > From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 15:44:25 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:44:25 +0100 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <062a01d115b2$2552cb40$6ff861c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <051001d114ae$3803c050$a80b40f0$@ntlworld.com> <051a01d114c3$43a94500$cafbcf00$@ntlworld.com> <062901d115ae$089636d0$19c2a470$@ntlworld.com> <062a01d115b2$2552cb40$6ff861c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: 2015-11-02 22:05 GMT+01:00 Robert Jarratt : > > > > I have just uploaded all the corrections. So the connector names on the > risers should now correspond. I have also corrected the area on the primary > control module around C403 and R407. > > Regards > > Rob > > Checked the new one. There are still something weird. The base of Q301 it is short circuited to the emitter (which if that is true would of cause your problem). But I think this is a drawing mistake. The base signals goes to the D405 diode which is connected to emitter Q405 and emitter Q406 which is then connected to emitter Q301... Please check this again. Maybe there are a short circuit component that makes you trace it wrong (if you do it by ohm-meter) /Mattis From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Nov 2 16:10:37 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:10:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1452954320.917969.1446502237886.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- >From: Charles Anthony > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/09/22/multics-honeywell-6180-mainframe-panel-on-ebay/ Wow someone referenced my blog.. I really should update that site From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Nov 2 16:15:53 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:15:53 +0000 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: References: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC22BEB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Lee Courtney Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 10:37 AM > I posted the video you linked to. The machines on the video belonged to > George Plue, who ran a medical billing service bureau in Flagstaff AZ. They > are now located at the Living Computer Museum (LCM) in Seattle. > George originally ran the Computer Center at Anderson University in Berrien Andrews > Springs MI, and the center ran several generations of SDS the XDS Sigma > mainframes over the years. When Xerox decided to get out of the mainframe > computing business in August 1975 the market for Sigmas essentially > collapsed despite Honeywell agreeing to buy the carcass of the business. > George and a partner got into the used Sigma HW business and he maintained > a stock of HW, SW and documentation at his home in MI. More info here: > http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/profess/SDSigma7.htm George's partner was Stan Ritland, who came from a family of doctors but who did not like medicine as a career path himself. They located the business in Flagstaff to take advantage of the built in customer base made up of Stan's three brothers; their offices were across the street from the main hospital, and they quickly grew. (George, an only child, met Stan when they were 8 years old. They were best friends for nearly 60 years, and George spent as much time at Stan's home as at his own growing up.) > I'm unclear on when he acquired his second home in Flagstaff, but he had a > typical ranch style house in Flagstaff. The big difference being that he > had installed a significantly larger electrical feed with three-phase power > than one would find in a residence, and the downstairs family and bedrooms > were used as the machine room in the video. The reason George *bought* the house was that there was already a 220V service running across the back of the property, so that running 220V into the house was a lot less expensive than usual. The basement in which the computers and peripherals were a tilt-up add-on to the original house. > I visited George in the early 2000's (I think) and at that time he had a > fully configured Sigma-9 and Sigma-8 mainframes, along with several tape > drives, and string of DASD. Yes, the machine room was strewn with > printouts, docs, partially finished projects, tapes, etc. But all the > machines worked and it was glorious. ;-) It's a Sigma 6, not a Sigma 8. The 6 was a clone of the 7 and 9 built for the education market with all of the usually unbundled products included in the license for CP-V. > Unfortunately George passed away a few years ago. All the HW and SW that > was in running condition was rescued by the LCM in Seattle. I know LCM has > had someone with Sigma experience working on and off on the Sigma to get it > running again. Not sure of the current status. But, that would be an > awesome time-sharing system alongside the DEC-20 they have. Not just running condition. 100,000 pounds of gear, including the 9, 6, and a 7 that had been retired in the 90s, spares for all of them, the 8 running disk drives and 4 running tape drives, along with about 20 more disk drives (the older 50MB hydraulic units) from the 7. Five 24' trucks, driven by Stan and his brothers from Flagstaff to Seattle. My colleague Keith and I spent 3 days in Flagstaff deinstalling everything, while Stan, 2 of his brothers, and George's wife, daughter, and granddaughter looked on, labeled, packed, fed us, forklifted onto the trucks, and celebrated George's life. > There was also a group in AZ working on restoring a Sigma mainframe, maybe > some of Georges collection. He also had a complete Sigma-7 and a boatload > of Honeywell peripherals in his garage in Flagstaff. The AZ group was very > energetic, but I have not heard any updates in several years. Having worked > on CHM's first restoration, the IBM 1620, from start to finish I know its a > huge undertaking to get even a relatively straightforward machine up and > running. No, George helped them, but he was running a Sigma support business; he was not inclined to give things away. George Plue was a true wizard. One of his creations was a SCSI interface for the Sigma 9 which allowed him to copy magnetic tape files to DAT (not, as we all know now, the best choice of medium, but remarkable for all that). George was also a true gentleman, as is Stan Ritland. It was a privilege to know George for the short time that I did. We met about a year and a half before his untimely passing, thanks to Lee Courtney. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 2 17:17:50 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:17:50 -0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <051001d114ae$3803c050$a80b40f0$@ntlworld.com> <051a01d114c3$43a94500$cafbcf00$@ntlworld.com> <062901d115ae$089636d0$19c2a470$@ntlworld.com> <062a01d115b2$2552cb40$6ff861c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <064c01d115c4$b13b4580$13b1d080$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind > Sent: 02 November 2015 21:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load > > 2015-11-02 22:05 GMT+01:00 Robert Jarratt : > > > > > > > > > I have just uploaded all the corrections. So the connector names on > > the risers should now correspond. I have also corrected the area on > > the primary control module around C403 and R407. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > Checked the new one. There are still something weird. The base of Q301 it is > short circuited to the emitter (which if that is true would of cause your > problem). But I think this is a drawing mistake. The base signals goes to the > D405 diode which is connected to emitter Q405 and emitter Q406 which is then > connected to emitter Q301... Please check this again. Maybe there are a short > circuit component that makes you trace it wrong (if you do it by ohm-meter) > > /Mattis Thanks for spotting the drawing mistake. I have noted an apparent short before, and I have some notes I made at the time, but that was so long ago (almost a year!), and the notes don't seem to conclude whether I found the short or not. I think I may have put it down to some of the transformers at the time, but I can't be sure. I will investigate this further as this is quite promising, but it looks like I will need to desolder some components... Regards Rob From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 17:38:26 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:38:26 -0600 Subject: VCF nonsense In-Reply-To: <5637D690.7010902@btinternet.com> References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <9B56874CD6904B31A2A90C58D58ECF1E@310e2> <5637D690.7010902@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20151102233826.GW8939@gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 02, 2015, rod wrote: > Whats all the fuss about.? > What did the poor guy do to be banned? There's some stuff about it in the list archives. I for one would prefer we not rehash it here now. -- Eric Christopherson From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 2 17:53:25 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 15:53:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF nonsense In-Reply-To: <5637D690.7010902@btinternet.com> References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <9B56874CD6904B31A2A90C58D58ECF1E@310e2> <5637D690.7010902@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 2015, rod wrote: > Whats all the fuss about.? Some sort of import of flamewar(s) from another list (we can't create enough of our own?) > What did the poor guy do to be banned? Nothing on this list. The parties involved don't seem to agree. Has probably now devolved into a battle over having The Last Word. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 2 18:09:33 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 18:09:33 -0600 Subject: VCF nonsense (was: VCF-Berlin, 2015) In-Reply-To: <9B56874CD6904B31A2A90C58D58ECF1E@310e2> References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <9B56874CD6904B31A2A90C58D58ECF1E@310e2> Message-ID: <005a01d115cb$eb4902b0$c1db0810$@classiccmp.org> This came up a few months ago here, and I asked for it to be taken to private email. Not sure why it resurfaced again (nor do I wish an explanation for it)... let's just keep this topic in private email please. J From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Mon Nov 2 18:09:48 2015 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 18:09:48 -0600 Subject: SCA drives - any interest? Message-ID: >Just asking: Any interest in 80-pin SCA drives, >Ultra 3 and Ultra320 in various capacities, both >IBM and HP/Compaq 'caddies' ? > >m I think you mentioned you had ~150GB drives, but I was wondering if you had some in larger size? I'd take a couple 300GB if the price was right. I bought an LTO-3 drive, but if I want to do any CPU based compression, I'm going to need at least a (400GB) tape's worth of 'tape spooling' buffer space. 3 ~150GB drives would work, but I'd like to cut down on power and noise, and go with a couple 300GB drives if you have them, and the price is right. I'd be willing to do about $40 for the two or three drives, if that's not worth your time, then just let me know and I'll start looking for some drives elsewhere. Thanks, Joseph Zatarski From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Nov 2 18:45:12 2015 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:45:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC22BEB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC22BEB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <2142586007.1874998.1446511512613.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> ----- Urspr?ngliche Message ----- > Von: Rich Alderson > An: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > CC: > Gesendet: 22:15 Montag, 2.November 2015 > Betreff: RE: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals > > From: Lee Courtney > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 10:37 AM > >> I posted the video you linked to. The machines on the video belonged to >> George Plue, who ran a medical billing service bureau in Flagstaff AZ. They >> are now located at the Living Computer Museum (LCM) in Seattle. > >> George originally ran the Computer Center at Anderson University in Berrien > Andrews >> Springs MI, and the center ran several generations of SDS the XDS Sigma >> mainframes over the years. When Xerox decided to get out of the mainframe >> computing business in August 1975 the market for Sigmas essentially >> collapsed despite Honeywell agreeing to buy the carcass of the business. >> George and a partner got into the used Sigma HW business and he maintained >> a stock of HW, SW and documentation at his home in MI. More info here: >> http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/profess/SDSigma7.htm > > George's partner was Stan Ritland, who came from a family of doctors but who > did not like medicine as a career path himself. They located the business in > Flagstaff to take advantage of the built in customer base made up of Stan's > three brothers; their offices were across the street from the main hospital, > and they quickly grew. > > (George, an only child, met Stan when they were 8 years old. They were best > friends for nearly 60 years, and George spent as much time at Stan's home as > at his own growing up.) > >> I'm unclear on when he acquired his second home in Flagstaff, but he > had a >> typical ranch style house in Flagstaff. The big difference being that he >> had installed a significantly larger electrical feed with three-phase power >> than one would find in a residence, and the downstairs family and bedrooms >> were used as the machine room in the video. > > The reason George *bought* the house was that there was already a 220V service > running across the back of the property, so that running 220V into the house > was a lot less expensive than usual. > > The basement in which the computers and peripherals were a tilt-up add-on to > the original house. > >> I visited George in the early 2000's (I think) and at that time he had > a >> fully configured Sigma-9 and Sigma-8 mainframes, along with several tape >> drives, and string of DASD. Yes, the machine room was strewn with >> printouts, docs, partially finished projects, tapes, etc. But all the >> machines worked and it was glorious. ;-) > > It's a Sigma 6, not a Sigma 8. The 6 was a clone of the 7 and 9 built for > the > education market with all of the usually unbundled products included in the > license for CP-V. > >> Unfortunately George passed away a few years ago. All the HW and SW that >> was in running condition was rescued by the LCM in Seattle. I know LCM has >> had someone with Sigma experience working on and off on the Sigma to get it >> running again. Not sure of the current status. But, that would be an >> awesome time-sharing system alongside the DEC-20 they have. > > Not just running condition. 100,000 pounds of gear, including the 9, 6, and a > 7 that had been retired in the 90s, spares for all of them, the 8 running disk > drives and 4 running tape drives, along with about 20 more disk drives (the > older 50MB hydraulic units) from the 7. Five 24' trucks, driven by Stan and > his > brothers from Flagstaff to Seattle. > > My colleague Keith and I spent 3 days in Flagstaff deinstalling everything, > while Stan, 2 of his brothers, and George's wife, daughter, and > granddaughter > looked on, labeled, packed, fed us, forklifted onto the trucks, and celebrated > George's life. > >> There was also a group in AZ working on restoring a Sigma mainframe, maybe >> some of Georges collection. He also had a complete Sigma-7 and a boatload >> of Honeywell peripherals in his garage in Flagstaff. The AZ group was very >> energetic, but I have not heard any updates in several years. Having worked >> on CHM's first restoration, the IBM 1620, from start to finish I know > its a >> huge undertaking to get even a relatively straightforward machine up and >> running. > > No, George helped them, but he was running a Sigma support business; he was not > inclined to give things away. > > George Plue was a true wizard. One of his creations was a SCSI interface for > the Sigma 9 which allowed him to copy magnetic tape files to DAT (not, as we > all know now, the best choice of medium, but remarkable for all that). > > George was also a true gentleman, as is Stan Ritland. It was a privilege to > know George for the short time that I did. We met about a year and a half > before his untimely passing, thanks to Lee Courtney. > > Rich > Lee and Rich, thanks a million for sharing your life experiences in this area and your memories about George and his commitment regarding the preservation of these Sigma systems!!! Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 2 19:00:42 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:00:42 -0800 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC22BEB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC22BEB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5638073A.8090307@bitsavers.org> On 11/2/15 2:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Not just running condition. 100,000 pounds of gear, including the 9, 6, and a > 7 that had been retired in the 90s, spares for all of them, the 8 running disk > drives and 4 running tape drives, along with about 20 more disk drives (the > older 50MB hydraulic units) from the 7. Five 24' trucks, driven by Stan and his > brothers from Flagstaff to Seattle. > I am glad that LCM was able to save these systems. If I were king, there would be a Sigma running where the 1401 is at CHM. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 2 19:21:35 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:21:35 -0800 Subject: SCA drives - any interest? In-Reply-To: <5637AE7A.4020201@sydex.com> References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> <68700557-D9B0-4394-B25E-A283EA366ADB@aracnet.com> <5637AE7A.4020201@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 2, 2015, at 10:42 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/02/2015 08:54 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> In case anyone is looking for the 'caddies' it looks like they're >> mostly HP/Compaq, including several dummies; I scrapped more IBM >> servers than HP, but to my surprise I only found two IBM units. > > The nice thing about SCA drives is that adapters for narrow- or wide-SCSI are/used to be available. I've run SCA drives with old Power Macintoshes, for example. > > I don't know if it's still true, but high-performance SCA drives do tend to run pretty hot. > > --Chuck I have one or two of those adapters somewhere. Any SCA drives I've used, have been quite hot, which is why I run them in external enclosures intended for them. It's rare to find ones that run at less than 7200rpm, most are 10k or 15k. Zane From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 2 20:53:35 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 18:53:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( Message-ID: Here's the obituary: http://www.anewtradition.com/obituaries/obituary/12060_Charles_Alton_Forsberg g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From connork at connorsdomain.com Mon Nov 2 21:03:10 2015 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:03:10 -0500 Subject: IBM z890 Message-ID: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> I recently won an IBM z890 via auction for $237. It was a very interesting adventure to retrieve this machine since it weighs 1500LBS on a good day, and well myself only clocking in around 115LBS I needed the help of a few friends and family to get this thing into the basement... I stripped the machine down to its bare rack to get it into the basement safely, although the rack itself I calculated to weigh about 800LBS itself. I'd say the most difficult part was the excavation we had to do to get it to fit under the deck! It was a REALLY tight fit as you will see in the photos. It took two trips to get it all, one with the truck alone to remove most of the innards and another with the trailer to grab the rest out of the rack and the rack itself. Its already in the basement and most of the way back together, just running the wiring internally for it then I need to wire up a 240v 30a outlet once we get the new breaker box in since there is no more room in the current box. Photos of the whole adventure: http://imgur.com/a/5uWit I plan to pickup an SAN based SCSI box to install Linux and play with. As far as I know I can't install any IBM OS' this way, I would need FICON or ESCON type storage to boot anything like z/OS. (Read EXPENSIVE!) As far as I know I can grab one of these boxes: http://www.ebay.com/itm/201459314771 And hook this up to a FICON interface and it will act as storage via FCP as a SAN. This 'should' allow me to use SCSI devices like an array of hard drives to install Linux. I'm obviously not very familiar with the z-series but I have been trying to read up and learn about everything. Let me know if my thought process and info are correct, also any suggestions or tips would be greatly appreciated! -Connor K From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 21:15:21 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:15:21 +1300 Subject: IBM z890 In-Reply-To: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> References: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Connor Krukosky wrote: > I recently won an IBM z890 via auction for $237. Congratulations! Mainframes are fun! > It was a very interesting adventure to retrieve this machine since it weighs > 1500LBS on a good day, and well myself only clocking in around 115LBS I > needed the help of a few friends and family to get this thing into the > basement... So I see. I thought I was mad. Shoehorning that thing under that deck is about the silliest bit of computer preservation nonsense I've ever seen! Well done! Exactly the kind of thing I might do :-) > I plan to pickup an SAN based SCSI box to install Linux and play with. As > far as I know I can't install any IBM OS' this way, I would need FICON or > ESCON type storage to boot One does not boot a mainframe; one IPLs it. :) > anything like z/OS. (Read EXPENSIVE!) I can't advise you as to the other boxes. From my Linux experience on mainframe I can say it doesn't seem to boo... IPL any differently to any other mainframe OS. If you can define the device to the mainframe and issue an IPL command, you *should* be able to IPL anything I think? http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Nov 2 21:23:17 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 19:23:17 -0800 Subject: IBM z890 In-Reply-To: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> References: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <563828A5.303@shiresoft.com> Excellent! Another person with an IBM Mainframe! TTFN - Guy TTFN - Guy On 11/2/15 7:03 PM, Connor Krukosky wrote: > I recently won an IBM z890 via auction for $237. > It was a very interesting adventure to retrieve this machine since it > weighs 1500LBS on a good day, and well myself only clocking in around > 115LBS I needed the help of a few friends and family to get this thing > into the basement... > I stripped the machine down to its bare rack to get it into the > basement safely, although the rack itself I calculated to weigh about > 800LBS itself. > I'd say the most difficult part was the excavation we had to do to get > it to fit under the deck! It was a REALLY tight fit as you will see in > the photos. > It took two trips to get it all, one with the truck alone to remove > most of the innards and another with the trailer to grab the rest out > of the rack and the rack itself. > Its already in the basement and most of the way back together, just > running the wiring internally for it then I need to wire up a 240v 30a > outlet once we get the new breaker box in since there is no more room > in the current box. > Photos of the whole adventure: > http://imgur.com/a/5uWit > > I plan to pickup an SAN based SCSI box to install Linux and play with. > As far as I know I can't install any IBM OS' this way, I would need > FICON or ESCON type storage to boot anything like z/OS. (Read EXPENSIVE!) > As far as I know I can grab one of these boxes: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/201459314771 > And hook this up to a FICON interface and it will act as storage via > FCP as a SAN. This 'should' allow me to use SCSI devices like an array > of hard drives to install Linux. > > I'm obviously not very familiar with the z-series but I have been > trying to read up and learn about everything. > Let me know if my thought process and info are correct, also any > suggestions or tips would be greatly appreciated! > > -Connor K From pete at pski.net Mon Nov 2 21:34:15 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:34:15 -0500 Subject: IBM z890 In-Reply-To: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> References: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <5633C31D-996E-420B-AAD2-56921FD120DE@pski.net> > On Nov 2, 2015, at 10:03 PM, Connor Krukosky wrote: > > I recently won an IBM z890 via auction for $237. > > Its already in the basement and most of the way back together, just running the wiring internally for it then I need to wire up a 240v 30a outlet once we get the new breaker box in since there is no more room in the current box. > > -Connor K So you bought a new electric furnace for the house, huh? :) You mainframe collectors are hard-core. From connork at connorsdomain.com Mon Nov 2 21:53:04 2015 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:53:04 -0500 Subject: IBM z890 In-Reply-To: References: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <56382FA0.9040104@connorsdomain.com> On 11/2/2015 10:34 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > So you bought a new electric furnace for the house, huh? :) Quite literally yes I did, because the basement and first floor does not have HVAC yet! Only the second and third floors do! On 11/2/2015 10:15 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Congratulations! Mainframes are fun! Thanks and yes they are :) > One does not boot a mainframe; one IPLs it. :) I totally knew this but somehow forgot such terminology while writing this email. *facepalm* > I can't advise you as to the other boxes. From my Linux experience on > mainframe I can say it doesn't seem to boo... IPL any differently to > any other mainframe OS. If you can define the device to the mainframe > and issue an IPL command, you *should* be able to IPL anything I think? Hm ok, I will have to do some more research on the storage front then. What I have been told is that you can IPL Linux over a SAN but not any IBM OS. But if IPLing shouldn't be any different then maybe you can't IPL from a SAN at all which I wouldn't be surprised at. -Connor K From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Nov 2 22:25:31 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:25:31 -0500 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice periphe... Message-ID: <1c4ac1.2e344459.4369913b@aol.com> Be good to see this all live again! \ Kudos to Allen and LCM! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 11/2/2015 5:48:04 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, p.gebhardt at ymail.com writes: All the HW and SW that >> was in running condition was rescued by the LCM in Seattle. I know LCM has >> had someone with Sigma experience working on and off on the Sigma to get it >> running again. Not sure of the current status. But, that would be an >> awesome time-sharing system alongside the DEC-20 they have. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 22:32:02 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:32:02 -0500 Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 2, 2015 9:53 PM, "geneb" wrote: > > Here's the obituary: > > http://www.anewtradition.com/obituaries/obituary/12060_Charles_Alton_Forsberg > > g. > > > -- Inventor of zmodem, eh? Thanks for passing this along. Bill From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 22:44:15 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:44:15 -0600 Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 02, 2015, william degnan wrote: > On Nov 2, 2015 9:53 PM, "geneb" wrote: > > > > Here's the obituary: > > > > > http://www.anewtradition.com/obituaries/obituary/12060_Charles_Alton_Forsberg > > > > g. > > > > > > -- > > Inventor of zmodem, eh? Thanks for passing this along. > Bill I never realized he was right near here. :( -- Eric Christopherson From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 22:48:56 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:48:56 -0500 Subject: IBM z890 In-Reply-To: <56382FA0.9040104@connorsdomain.com> References: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> <56382FA0.9040104@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: >> >> Congratulations! Mainframes are fun! > > Thanks and yes they are :) > >> One does not boot a mainframe; one IPLs it. :) > > I totally knew this but somehow forgot such terminology while writing this email. *facepalm* > >> I can't advise you as to the other boxes. From my Linux experience on mainframe I can say it doesn't seem to boo... IPL any differently to any other mainframe OS. If you can define the device to the mainframe and issue an IPL command, you *should* be able to IPL anything I think? > > Hm ok, I will have to do some more research on the storage front then. > What I have been told is that you can IPL Linux over a SAN but not any IBM OS. > But if IPLing shouldn't be any different then maybe you can't IPL from a SAN at all which I wouldn't be surprised at. > > -Connor K Check the OS defaults of the SAN networking software layer. My instinct is AIX might play a part here. From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 23:22:13 2015 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:22:13 -0500 Subject: IBM z890 In-Reply-To: References: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> <56382FA0.9040104@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: I am so jealous. On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:48 PM, william degnan wrote: > >> > >> Congratulations! Mainframes are fun! > > > > Thanks and yes they are :) > > > >> One does not boot a mainframe; one IPLs it. :) > > > > I totally knew this but somehow forgot such terminology while writing > this email. *facepalm* > > > >> I can't advise you as to the other boxes. From my Linux experience on > mainframe I can say it doesn't seem to boo... IPL any differently to any > other mainframe OS. If you can define the device to the mainframe and issue > an IPL command, you *should* be able to IPL anything I think? > > > > Hm ok, I will have to do some more research on the storage front then. > > What I have been told is that you can IPL Linux over a SAN but not any > IBM OS. > > But if IPLing shouldn't be any different then maybe you can't IPL from a > SAN at all which I wouldn't be surprised at. > > > > -Connor K > > Check the OS defaults of the SAN networking software layer. My instinct is > AIX might play a part here. > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 23:23:06 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:23:06 -0500 Subject: SCA drives - any interest? References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <584FB804B6FF437093BDF81D8035DCD6@310e2> <68700557-D9B0-4394-B25E-A283EA366ADB@aracnet.com> <5637AE7A.4020201@sydex.com> Message-ID: I have a couple of 6-drive hot swap bays that some of these drives came out of; unfortunately I didn't make a note of what systems they came out of but they look like the bay in this Proliant ML370: http://techtradepartners.squarespace.com/blog/2011/1/3/we-practice-what-we-preach.html although this 5500 looks vaguely familiar and there are two of these bays...: http://tempcomgauper.blog.com/2014/04/06/compaq-proliant-5500-server/ In any case, they interface through a 68-pin SCSI connector and a 6-pin power connector; by any chance would anyone know where I could find the pinout for that power connector? Maybe this isn't the best place to ask; is there a forum where server fans hang out? Thanks, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 8:21 PM Subject: Re: SCA drives - any interest? On Nov 2, 2015, at 10:42 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/02/2015 08:54 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> In case anyone is looking for the 'caddies' it looks like they're >> mostly HP/Compaq, including several dummies; I scrapped more IBM >> servers than HP, but to my surprise I only found two IBM units. > > The nice thing about SCA drives is that adapters for narrow- or wide-SCSI > are/used to be available. I've run SCA drives with old Power Macintoshes, for > example. > > I don't know if it's still true, but high-performance SCA drives do tend to > run pretty hot. > > --Chuck I have one or two of those adapters somewhere. Any SCA drives I've used, have been quite hot, which is why I run them in external enclosures intended for them. It's rare to find ones that run at less than 7200rpm, most are 10k or 15k. Zane From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 23:35:00 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 00:35:00 -0500 Subject: IBM z890 References: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> <56382FA0.9040104@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <940E0CB6E81B418E9F6EDE8A0D817710@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Connor Krukosky" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 10:53 PM Subject: Re: IBM z890 > On 11/2/2015 10:34 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >> So you bought a new electric furnace for the house, huh? :) > Quite literally yes I did, because the basement and first floor does not > have HVAC yet! > Only the second and third floors do! > -Connor K Now THAT's what I call good planning! ;-) From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 2 23:44:16 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:44:16 -0800 Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> References: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> On 11/2/2015 8:44 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Mon, Nov 02, 2015, william degnan wrote: >> On Nov 2, 2015 9:53 PM, "geneb" wrote: >>> Here's the obituary: >>> >>> >> http://www.anewtradition.com/obituaries/obituary/12060_Charles_Alton_Forsberg >>> g. >>> >>> >>> -- >> Inventor of zmodem, eh? Thanks for passing this along. >> Bill > I never realized he was right near here. > > :( > Sad to hear of his passing. I looked for his info on the usual places as well, and found he had a company, Omen Technology. His site www.omen.com seems to be unresponsive, but there are copies on archive.org. There are some interesting tidbits that maybe should be archived. Tek 4114 software to name one thing with download. Thanks Jim From dave at 661.org Mon Nov 2 23:54:31 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 05:54:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Micro-Altair tape interface Message-ID: As I finally complete my Micro-Altair kit from Briel Computers, my thoughts turn to the question of how I can get an audio tape interface working on this machine. I understand that the MITS tape controller is essentially a serial port with a simple modem bolted on the rear. The Micro-Altair has only one serial port, coming off the ramdisk board, which will be used for the console (no, I don't want to use the built-in terminal). How can a second serial port be added to this machine? Then for recognizing Kansas City tape tones, I suppose I could clone the circuitry of the tape drive modem. Then I realized I could make an Arduino do this with a handful of other common parts. I could make it recognize Tarbell and other tape formats. Has anyone else done this sort of thing? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 2 15:28:42 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:28:42 +0000 Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5637D58A.8060500@btinternet.com> Well I've had a good look at the section marked 'Display' It looks like the same row of 37 lamps is repeated on a number of sub panels with up to four rows on a panel. The lamps look to be pushed through from behind and held every so often with a chrome screw from the front. The photo of the lower half shows four sub panels CO 4 ROWS OU 1 ROW DU 2 ROWS APU 1 ROW That might be do-able Rod On 02/11/15 01:00, Charles Anthony wrote: > On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Michael Thompson < > michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:11:29 -0700 >>> From: Charles Anthony >>> Subject: Front panels >>> >>> The front panel I want to build is for my DPS8-M (aka Honeywell 6180) >>> emulator. >>> >>> >>> >> http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/09/22/multics-honeywell-6180-mainframe-panel-on-ebay/ >>> >>> TIA, >>> >>> -- Charles >>> >> That is only one of two panels on the Honeywell processors. There was >> another one on the other CPU door. There is are three rollers with an >> encoding switchs to change what the lights were displaying. Moving the >> roller changed the text that was visible in the window below the light >> bulbs and told you what each light meant. >> >> > For my purposes, I'm interested in the lower half of the pictured panel -- > the "Display" -- which showed the PC and registers. My emulated panel can > be seen at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkjvx5A7vJw. > > -- Charles From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 2 18:54:56 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 16:54:56 -0800 Subject: sort by date back in google groups searches Message-ID: <563805E0.2010106@bitsavers.org> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/classiccmp|sort:date for example From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 01:04:35 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:04:35 -0800 Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: <5637D58A.8060500@btinternet.com> References: <5637D58A.8060500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 1:28 PM, rod wrote: > Well I've had a good look at the section marked 'Display' > > It looks like the same row of 37 lamps is repeated on a number of sub > panels with up to four rows on a panel. > The lamps look to be pushed through from behind and held every so often > with a chrome screw from the front. > > The photo of the lower half shows four sub panels > > > CO 4 ROWS > I think that should be 'CU'; Control Unit (CPU). First row is instruction decoder; second row is the instruction buffer; third row is the PC and instruction sequencer state; fourth row is a bunch of internal state bits. Fifth row is the computed address (the current state of the incredibly complex 6180 indirect addressing model). OU 1 ROW > Operation unit; fixed point and boolean math. > DU 2 ROWS > Decimal Unit. Does decimal math. APU 1 ROW > Append Unit. Does virtual address translation. Towards the top are the "DATA" and "ADDRESS" panels which allow displaying and toggling in data. In addition the DATA switches are readable from by the software; Multics requires certain magic settings on the data switches, probably indicated by the bits of white tape in the picture. Also, the INITIALIZE button that does just that. The upper half of the display panel has the "Execute" button which causes a CPU fault based on the ADDRESS switches; Multics uses this to break out of wedged operation and reenter Bootload Command Environment (GRUB), where the operator can dump memory to a disk partition for analysis and reboot. Below the EXECUTE is the indicator register display; things like "negative", "carry", "zero" and the like. To the right of that is the history register display; the last 16 or 64 instructions and their operand values are kept in a circular queue; very handy for low-level debugging. Below that is ICT and FUNCTION REGISTER tracks communication between the units. I don't see the A and Q register display; they must be on the other panel. They have a distinctive 'crawl pattern' when Multics is idling. (You can see it in the youtube clip.) You may notice that there is no RUN/STOP switch. The 6180 runs all of the time. When it is first turned on, memory is zero and the PC is zero. Instruction code 0 is illegal, which causes a fault. It then executes the illegal operation fault handling word pair, which are zeros, and cause a fault while processing a fault: a Double Fault. It toddles off and executes the double fault handling word pair, causing a double fault. Somewhere on that display panel is the fault code display, which would show a steady double fault code. The BOOT button (sorry, not IPL here) is on the Input/Output Manager cabinet, not the CPU. It reads a tape record into low memory overwriting the interrupt handler word pair, and interrupts the CPU, which executes the interrupt word pair which now contains instructions to jump into the code read in from tape. There are some interesting gyrations to make the first tape record both a boot loader and a legitimate tape label. Anyway, I know what most of those lights mean. Initially, I am just going to build a plexiglass board and use LEDs, laid out in a similar order to the display; I'm mostly interested in CPU state. That will give me a better idea of the scope of the project, and allow me to make more educated decisions about the Mk. II display. A lot of helpful ideas from cctalk; thank you all very much. -- Charles From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 01:04:35 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 23:04:35 -0800 Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: <5637D58A.8060500@btinternet.com> References: <5637D58A.8060500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 1:28 PM, rod wrote: > Well I've had a good look at the section marked 'Display' > > It looks like the same row of 37 lamps is repeated on a number of sub > panels with up to four rows on a panel. > The lamps look to be pushed through from behind and held every so often > with a chrome screw from the front. > > The photo of the lower half shows four sub panels > > > CO 4 ROWS > I think that should be 'CU'; Control Unit (CPU). First row is instruction decoder; second row is the instruction buffer; third row is the PC and instruction sequencer state; fourth row is a bunch of internal state bits. Fifth row is the computed address (the current state of the incredibly complex 6180 indirect addressing model). OU 1 ROW > Operation unit; fixed point and boolean math. > DU 2 ROWS > Decimal Unit. Does decimal math. APU 1 ROW > Append Unit. Does virtual address translation. Towards the top are the "DATA" and "ADDRESS" panels which allow displaying and toggling in data. In addition the DATA switches are readable from by the software; Multics requires certain magic settings on the data switches, probably indicated by the bits of white tape in the picture. Also, the INITIALIZE button that does just that. The upper half of the display panel has the "Execute" button which causes a CPU fault based on the ADDRESS switches; Multics uses this to break out of wedged operation and reenter Bootload Command Environment (GRUB), where the operator can dump memory to a disk partition for analysis and reboot. Below the EXECUTE is the indicator register display; things like "negative", "carry", "zero" and the like. To the right of that is the history register display; the last 16 or 64 instructions and their operand values are kept in a circular queue; very handy for low-level debugging. Below that is ICT and FUNCTION REGISTER tracks communication between the units. I don't see the A and Q register display; they must be on the other panel. They have a distinctive 'crawl pattern' when Multics is idling. (You can see it in the youtube clip.) You may notice that there is no RUN/STOP switch. The 6180 runs all of the time. When it is first turned on, memory is zero and the PC is zero. Instruction code 0 is illegal, which causes a fault. It then executes the illegal operation fault handling word pair, which are zeros, and cause a fault while processing a fault: a Double Fault. It toddles off and executes the double fault handling word pair, causing a double fault. Somewhere on that display panel is the fault code display, which would show a steady double fault code. The BOOT button (sorry, not IPL here) is on the Input/Output Manager cabinet, not the CPU. It reads a tape record into low memory overwriting the interrupt handler word pair, and interrupts the CPU, which executes the interrupt word pair which now contains instructions to jump into the code read in from tape. There are some interesting gyrations to make the first tape record both a boot loader and a legitimate tape label. Anyway, I know what most of those lights mean. Initially, I am just going to build a plexiglass board and use LEDs, laid out in a similar order to the display; I'm mostly interested in CPU state. That will give me a better idea of the scope of the project, and allow me to make more educated decisions about the Mk. II display. A lot of helpful ideas from cctalk; thank you all very much. -- Charles From other at oryx.us Tue Nov 3 02:11:39 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 02:11:39 -0600 Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> References: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56386C3B.1000701@oryx.us> http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=omen.com According to Netcraft, his site was last seen in 2012. Jerry On 11/ 2/15 11:44 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > His site www.omen.com seems to be unresponsive, but there are copies on > archive.org. There are some interesting tidbits that maybe should be archived. > Tek 4114 software to name one thing with download. > > Thanks > Jim From other at oryx.us Tue Nov 3 02:13:50 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 02:13:50 -0600 Subject: WTB: Unix/Solaris Adobe FrameMaker 8 Message-ID: <56386CBE.5030409@oryx.us> I am looking to purchase/acquire a copy of Adobe FrameMaker 8 for Unix/Solaris. Straight from Adobe, FrameMaker had always been a pretty pricy item, but I had always managed to acquire a legal copy, sometimes years old and after the fact through eBay, etc. And through that method, I own legal copies+media of 5.x, 6.x and 7.x for Unix and Mac. I had hoped to purchase a copy of version 8 via a similar method, but several years have passed by, and I have never seen a copy of version 8 for sale. After version 8, FrameMaker was significantly changed and released for dos/windows only. I believe that the current version is 11.x or above. Also, in case it isn't obvious, this is for myself for home use only. Jerry From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 3 02:48:57 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 08:48:57 +0000 Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: References: <5637D58A.8060500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <563874F9.7030403@btinternet.com> Hello Charles Is it plexiglas or is it metal? It could be a metal backing plate with screened plexiglas on top. Attaching a lamp to a plexiglas panel by putting it through from the front and putting a nut on the back is a no no. It will split along the line of holes (thats how they cleave marble blocks) Aluminum or Steel would be ok. If you are going to prototype. Then just make one row high panels and stack them up. Anything under 24" wide by four rows high in plexiglas. I can make and screen. Thats because my printer(HP DesignJet T120) is 24" wide Nobody has asked me for a metal panel yet but the day will come and my silk screen girls can screen on painted metal. How wide are the panels? and how high is a one row panel? Regards Rod On 03/11/15 07:04, Charles Anthony wrote: > Operation unit; fixed point and boolean math. > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 3 04:17:42 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 10:17:42 +0000 Subject: VCF nonsense In-Reply-To: <005a01d115cb$eb4902b0$c1db0810$@classiccmp.org> References: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> <9B56874CD6904B31A2A90C58D58ECF1E@310e2> <005a01d115cb$eb4902b0$c1db0810$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <563889C6.8090705@btinternet.com> Hello J I certainly don't recall it from before Well if needs private email so be it. Sadly, unless whatever it is, can be settled it will be back. 'What goes around comes around' Oh well back to nicer things. I have a big batch of panels at the silk screen shop. I'm awaiting a call to go and look at the first off's Rod On 03/11/15 00:09, Jay West wrote: > This came up a few months ago here, and I asked for it to be taken to private email. Not sure why it resurfaced again (nor do I wish an explanation for it)... let's just keep this topic in private email please. > > J > > From jws at jwsss.com Tue Nov 3 08:04:01 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 06:04:01 -0800 Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: <56386C3B.1000701@oryx.us> References: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> <56386C3B.1000701@oryx.us> Message-ID: <5638BED1.4010703@jwsss.com> On 11/3/2015 12:11 AM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=omen.com > > According to Netcraft, his site was last seen in 2012. > > Jerry > > Interesting that it is hosted by Comcast. I wonder if the home / business account was combined and someone canceled it. I have this on Archive.org from just this Oct 2. He published some health information that is informative. https://web.archive.org/web/*/www.omen.com https://web.archive.org/web/20151002142248/http://www.omen.com/ Again, sympathy for his wife and family. thanks Jim > > > On 11/ 2/15 11:44 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> His site www.omen.com seems to be unresponsive, but there are copies on >> archive.org. There are some interesting tidbits that maybe should be >> archived. >> Tek 4114 software to name one thing with download. >> >> Thanks >> Jim > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 08:40:12 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 09:40:12 -0500 Subject: Fw: SCA drives - any interest? Message-ID: <4CA713D828FC4EF28429A1087150D8BD@310e2> Duh! In the immortal words of Emily Litella: Never mind. I keep forgetting that I still have a couple of Proliants, ML370s as it turns out; not quite the same bay, but probably close enough. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Stein" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2015 12:23 AM Subject: Re: SCA drives - any interest? >I have a couple of 6-drive hot swap bays that some of these drives came out of; >unfortunately I didn't make a note of what systems they came out of but they >look like the bay in this Proliant ML370: > http://techtradepartners.squarespace.com/blog/2011/1/3/we-practice-what-we-preach.html > > although this 5500 looks vaguely familiar and there are two of these bays...: > http://tempcomgauper.blog.com/2014/04/06/compaq-proliant-5500-server/ > > In any case, they interface through a 68-pin SCSI connector and a 6-pin power > connector; by any chance would anyone know where I could find the pinout for > that power connector? > > Maybe this isn't the best place to ask; is there a forum where server fans > hang out? > > Thanks, > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Zane Healy" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 8:21 PM > Subject: Re: SCA drives - any interest? > > > > On Nov 2, 2015, at 10:42 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 11/02/2015 08:54 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >> >>> In case anyone is looking for the 'caddies' it looks like they're >>> mostly HP/Compaq, including several dummies; I scrapped more IBM >>> servers than HP, but to my surprise I only found two IBM units. >> >> The nice thing about SCA drives is that adapters for narrow- or wide-SCSI >> are/used to be available. I've run SCA drives with old Power Macintoshes, >> for example. >> >> I don't know if it's still true, but high-performance SCA drives do tend to >> run pretty hot. >> >> --Chuck > > I have one or two of those adapters somewhere. Any SCA drives I've used, have > been quite hot, which is why I run them in external enclosures intended for > them. It's rare to find ones that run at less than 7200rpm, most are 10k or > 15k. > > Zane > > > From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 3 09:44:49 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 09:44:49 -0600 Subject: IBM z890 In-Reply-To: References: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <5638D671.1060608@charter.net> On 11/2/2015 9:15 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Connor Krukosky > wrote: >> I recently won an IBM z890 via auction for $237. > > Congratulations! Mainframes are fun! > >> It was a very interesting adventure to retrieve this machine since it weighs >> 1500LBS on a good day, and well myself only clocking in around 115LBS I >> needed the help of a few friends and family to get this thing into the >> basement... > > So I see. I thought I was mad. Shoehorning that thing under that deck > is about the silliest bit of computer preservation nonsense I've ever > seen! Well done! Exactly the kind of thing I might do :-) > I have personally seen that kind of operation before. Back in the day a PDP-11/20 was delivered to a group doing a legal records project here in Madison WI into a house basement using similar techniques, though I don't think any lifting equipment was required - just tilting some racks to pretty acute angles to get them under the door header. And then there was the "Connecticut" 1401... JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 3 09:54:07 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 09:54:07 -0600 Subject: IBM z890 In-Reply-To: References: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> <56382FA0.9040104@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <5638D89F.6070502@charter.net> On 11/2/2015 11:22 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I am so jealous. > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:48 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >>>> >>>> Congratulations! Mainframes are fun! >>> >>> Thanks and yes they are :) >>> My XT/370 card set and P/390 card are even jealous. ;) From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 3 09:57:10 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 09:57:10 -0600 Subject: Micro-Altair tape interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5638D956.3030405@charter.net> On 11/2/2015 11:54 PM, dave at 661.org wrote: > > As I finally complete my Micro-Altair kit from Briel Computers, my > thoughts turn to the question of how I can get an audio tape interface > working on this machine. > > I understand that the MITS tape controller is essentially a serial port > with a simple modem bolted on the rear. Yes, exactly - but IIRC it was TTL level. And didn't work all that well. It wasn't too long before I acquired a Processor Technology CUTS tape interface, which worked only slightly better. At one point I re-purposed said MITS tape interface serial port (removing the tape interface portion) and used it to connect to my Atari 800 serial port, providing printer and disk services to the Atari. JRJ From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 3 10:20:12 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 10:20:12 -0600 Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> References: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: At 11:44 PM 11/2/2015, jwsmobile wrote: >I looked for his info on the usual places as well, and found he had a company, Omen Technology. Makers of Pro-YAM, a very fine telecom program for several platforms. Scriptable, flexible, handled all the odd cases. Have been using it for decades now under DOS. Another example of a fellow who probably hoarded a bunch of delightful and obscure stuff that should've been rescued. - John From leec2124 at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 10:34:35 2015 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 08:34:35 -0800 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: <5638073A.8090307@bitsavers.org> References: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC22BEB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5638073A.8090307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: "If I were king, there would be a Sigma running where the 1401 is at CHM." You have my vote. Along with some time-sharing... Lee C. On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/2/15 2:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > Not just running condition. 100,000 pounds of gear, including the 9, 6, >> and a >> 7 that had been retired in the 90s, spares for all of them, the 8 running >> disk >> drives and 4 running tape drives, along with about 20 more disk drives >> (the >> older 50MB hydraulic units) from the 7. Five 24' trucks, driven by Stan >> and his >> brothers from Flagstaff to Seattle. >> >> > I am glad that LCM was able to save these systems. > If I were king, there would be a Sigma running where the 1401 is at CHM. > > > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Tue Nov 3 11:01:55 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 17:01:55 +0000 Subject: Xerox 6085 and Intel MDS II - Value? Message-ID: Hi all, I'm in need of a new cabin and might be willing to part with a couple of my more unusual systems to fund it. I have a complete Xerox 6085 with monitor, keyboard, mouse, and tape drive in very good visual condition, with only a few scuffs on the case and some minor yellowing on the keyboard and mouse. The card slots are fully populated, but I haven't check how much RAM is installed yet. It has a working hard drive but no OS. It boots up and IIRC passes the self test. I don't have a floppy drive for it but could wire one up to further test if anyone has a diagram. I also have two Intel MDS IIs, the one I'm thinking of selling currently lights up but doesn't display anything on the monitor. I also have various boxed ICE devices (8085/6/8), software (haven't tried reading it, some of which isn't on bitsavers yet), and manuals for everything. Has anyone seen these sell in the past? All I could find was an ebay listing for a badly damaged Xerox base unit for $500. I live in England, but would be willing to ship worldwide. Regards, -Tom From jim at deitygraveyard.com Tue Nov 3 11:19:56 2015 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 12:19:56 -0500 Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> References: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 12:44 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > His site www.omen.com seems to be unresponsive, but there are copies on > archive.org. There are some interesting tidbits that maybe should be > archived. Tek 4114 software to name one thing with download. Doesn't look like any software can be downloaded. It was hosted on a FTP site. Archive.org doesn't do FTP. :( Does anyone happen to have a copy of ftp://omen.com? There were a few things I would have liked. Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 3 12:18:45 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 12:18:45 -0600 Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: References: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <000a01d11664$13d100a0$3b7301e0$@classiccmp.org> It was written... ----- Doesn't look like any software can be downloaded. It was hosted on a FTP site. Archive.org doesn't do FTP. :( Does anyone happen to have a copy of ftp://omen.com? There were a few things I would have liked. ----- Yeah, already looked at doing that. When I hear about a site going down permanently I often try to snag a copy for posterity and dump it on the classiccmp server for folks (with owner permission if possible), but for this one it doesn't appear files can be had :( J From jason at textfiles.com Tue Nov 3 12:25:44 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 13:25:44 -0500 Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: <000a01d11664$13d100a0$3b7301e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> <000a01d11664$13d100a0$3b7301e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Archive.org does FTP. It just doesn't present it for the world to see. I have no idea if omen.com was grabbed. I'll check. On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Jay West wrote: > It was written... > ----- > Doesn't look like any software can be downloaded. It was hosted on a FTP > site. Archive.org doesn't do FTP. :( > > Does anyone happen to have a copy of ftp://omen.com? There were a few > things I would have liked. > ----- > Yeah, already looked at doing that. When I hear about a site going down > permanently I often try to snag a copy for posterity and dump it on the > classiccmp server for folks (with owner permission if possible), but for > this one it doesn't appear files can be had :( > > J > > > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Nov 3 12:26:01 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 18:26:01 +0000 Subject: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC28236@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Mike Ross Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 7:15 PM > One does not boot a mainframe; one IPLs it. :) Only if said mainframe is from a company with HQ in Armonk, NY. ;-> You know, the same company that does not have dis[kc]s, but DASD. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 3 12:29:02 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 10:29:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: <000a01d11664$13d100a0$3b7301e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> <000a01d11664$13d100a0$3b7301e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 2015, Jay West wrote: > Yeah, already looked at doing that. When I hear about a site going down > permanently I often try to snag a copy for posterity and dump it on the > classiccmp server for folks (with owner permission if possible), but for > this one it doesn't appear files can be had :( Maybe reach out to his widow? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 3 12:49:42 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 13:49:42 -0500 Subject: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC28236@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC28236@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <907784B7-9267-4BC2-826A-DB6FEE0D59CF@comcast.net> > On Nov 3, 2015, at 1:26 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > Mike Ross > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 7:15 PM > >> One does not boot a mainframe; one IPLs it. :) > > Only if said mainframe is from a company with HQ in Armonk, NY. ;-> > > You know, the same company that does not have dis[kc]s, but DASD. A.k.a. "files". And it doesn't have files, it has datasets. And it doesn't have datasets, but what it calls a modem I have no idea. :-) Some other mainframes might be deadstarted. paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 3 12:51:56 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 10:51:56 -0800 Subject: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC28236@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC28236@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5639024C.6070808@sydex.com> On 11/03/2015 10:26 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Mike Ross Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 7:15 PM > >> One does not boot a mainframe; one IPLs it. :) > > Only if said mainframe is from a company with HQ in Armonk, NY. ;-> Yup, I was used to "deadstarting" systems. --Chuck From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 13:36:37 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 11:36:37 -0800 Subject: sort by date back in google groups searches In-Reply-To: <563805E0.2010106@bitsavers.org> References: <563805E0.2010106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Jeeeez. 'bout time. The amount of rage that omission caused me- it was super rude of Google to buy a Usenet archive and then cripple the ability of people to use it! If only the rest of the old groups UI was back.... Thanks for the heads up, Al. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 2, 2015, at 16:54, Al Kossow wrote: > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/classiccmp|sort:date > > for example > From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 13:36:37 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 11:36:37 -0800 Subject: sort by date back in google groups searches In-Reply-To: <563805E0.2010106@bitsavers.org> References: <563805E0.2010106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Jeeeez. 'bout time. The amount of rage that omission caused me- it was super rude of Google to buy a Usenet archive and then cripple the ability of people to use it! If only the rest of the old groups UI was back.... Thanks for the heads up, Al. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 2, 2015, at 16:54, Al Kossow wrote: > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/classiccmp|sort:date > > for example > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 3 13:56:37 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 14:56:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890] Message-ID: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rich Alderson > You know, the same company that does not have dis[kc]s, but DASD. Some guy from IBM came to MIT to give a talk about some database system that they had, and he kept referring to 'DASD'. Puzzled looks. Finally some brave soul stuck up his hand, and asked was a DASD might be. Quoth the guy, 'round brown'! :-) He was actually very sharp, and we liked his system, but I don't recall anything about it, other than that line! Noel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 14:14:16 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 20:14:16 -0000 Subject: IBM z890 In-Reply-To: References: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> <56382FA0.9040104@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <029f01d11674$3772c1a0$a65844e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: 03 November 2015 04:49 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM z890 > > >> > >> Congratulations! Mainframes are fun! > > > > Thanks and yes they are :) > > > >> One does not boot a mainframe; one IPLs it. :) > > > > I totally knew this but somehow forgot such terminology while writing > this email. *facepalm* > > > >> I can't advise you as to the other boxes. From my Linux experience on > mainframe I can say it doesn't seem to boo... IPL any differently to any other > mainframe OS. If you can define the device to the mainframe and issue an > IPL command, you *should* be able to IPL anything I think? Not sure. I think LINUX will run with Network Attached Storage .... > > > > Hm ok, I will have to do some more research on the storage front then. > > What I have been told is that you can IPL Linux over a SAN but not any > IBM OS. > > But if IPLing shouldn't be any different then maybe you can't IPL from > > a > SAN at all which I wouldn't be surprised at. I think all IBM > > > > -Connor K > > Check the OS defaults of the SAN networking software layer. My instinct is > AIX might play a part here. I seem to remember that IBM OS's need a SAN that will talk ESCON or FICON and will resent emulated 3390 disks. http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg246497.pdf might help Dave From connork at connorsdomain.com Tue Nov 3 14:31:03 2015 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:31:03 -0500 Subject: IBM z890 In-Reply-To: <029f01d11674$3772c1a0$a65844e0$@gmail.com> References: <563823EE.1070702@connorsdomain.com> <56382FA0.9040104@connorsdomain.com> <029f01d11674$3772c1a0$a65844e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56391987.2040504@connorsdomain.com> On 11/3/2015 3:14 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william >> degnan >> Sent: 03 November 2015 04:49 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: IBM z890 >> >>>> Congratulations! Mainframes are fun! >>> Thanks and yes they are :) >>> >>>> One does not boot a mainframe; one IPLs it. :) >>> I totally knew this but somehow forgot such terminology while writing >> this email. *facepalm* >>>> I can't advise you as to the other boxes. From my Linux experience on >> mainframe I can say it doesn't seem to boo... IPL any differently to any other >> mainframe OS. If you can define the device to the mainframe and issue an >> IPL command, you *should* be able to IPL anything I think? > Not sure. I think LINUX will run with Network Attached Storage .... > >>> Hm ok, I will have to do some more research on the storage front then. >>> What I have been told is that you can IPL Linux over a SAN but not any >> IBM OS. >>> But if IPLing shouldn't be any different then maybe you can't IPL from >>> a >> SAN at all which I wouldn't be surprised at. > I think all IBM > >>> -Connor K >> Check the OS defaults of the SAN networking software layer. My instinct is >> AIX might play a part here. > I seem to remember that IBM OS's need a SAN that will talk ESCON or FICON and will resent emulated 3390 disks. > > > http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg246497.pdf > > might help > Dave > Thanks for the info Dave, I have learned what can and can not be installed over FCP (aka SAN) via this page: http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/hardware/connectivity/products/fe8.html # CHPID type FC ? FICON, zHPF, and channel-to-channel (CTC) traffic for the z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE, z/TPF, and Linux on z Systems environments # CHPID type FCP - Fibre Channel Protocol (FCP) for attachment to SCSI devices for the z/VM, z/VSE, and Linux on z Systems environments So now we know what can and can't IPL over which interfaces, now its a matter of finding which devices support what. I think the IBM TotalStorage series of disk arrays support FC, at-least DS4000 and up, DS3000 may but I am not sure. I have found some DS4000 chassis up which are somewhat cheap but then I need to buy caddies and drives and that will add up... http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-1740-710-DS4000-EXP710-Total-Storage-Expansion-Unit-zq-/281628536073?hash=item41925e6d09:g:~44AAOSwrklVAxIp I have found complete DS4000's for around 200 dollars. http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-DS4000-EXP100-SAN-Expansion-Unit-1724-1xp-w-14x-400GB-7-2k-Hard-Drives-3650-/171988053156?hash=item280b496ca4:g:j20AAOSweW5VgGTH But still I am not 100% sure they support FC, and are not just SAN's over FCP which I think they also support. To say the least I need to find someone very familiar with the newer IBM hardware because I don't want to pay as much as I did for the machine to get storage that 'might' work. -Connor K From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Nov 3 15:06:22 2015 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 21:06:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: IBM z890 In-Reply-To: <56391987.2040504@connorsdomain.com> References: <56391987.2040504@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <1977114586.2772794.1446584782421.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> > So now we know what can and can't IPL over which interfaces, now its a > matter of finding which devices support what. > I think the IBM TotalStorage series of disk arrays support FC, at-least > DS4000 and up, DS3000 may but I am not sure. > I have found some DS4000 chassis up which are somewhat cheap but then I > need to buy caddies and drives and that will add up... > http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-1740-710-DS4000-EXP710-Total-Storage-Expansion-Unit-zq-/281628536073?hash=item41925e6d09:g:~44AAOSwrklVAxIp > I have found complete DS4000's for around 200 dollars. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-DS4000-EXP100-SAN-Expansion-Unit-1724-1xp-w-14x-400GB-7-2k-Hard-Drives-3650-/171988053156?hash=item280b496ca4:g:j20AAOSweW5VgGTH > But still I am not 100% sure they support FC, and are not just SAN's > over FCP which I think they also support. > To say the least I need to find someone very familiar with the newer IBM > hardware because I don't want to pay as much as I did for the machine to > get storage that 'might' work. I did read the last sentence three times, I think. Weren't these machines worth over 200k USD ten years ago? :) Cheers, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Nov 3 12:48:27 2015 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam ibn Abraham) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 10:48:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Mac & PC sale @ VCF recycling warehouse Message-ID: After a dozen years I'm shutting down my e-waste recycling business. In that time I managed to accumulate a lot of interesting things, including a lot of vintage PCs that are from a bygone era and have enough unique features to make them collectible. I have models from various brands including Packard Bell, Acer, HP, Compaq, Leading Edge, etc. There's also a stack of at least half a dozen restorable IBM PCs (model 5150). I also have a huge selection of Macs, from some 90s and even 80s models (Mac SE) all the way through the return of Jobs era with the iMac and the G3's, G4's (aluminum case servers), etc., plus laptops. I have every iMac color. I was planning to ripen these to 20 years old before I sold them on eBay for silly sums but I'll start letting them go still green and you can ripen them in your garage. Keyboards and mice also available to make complete systems. I also have lots of other vintage electronics, including whole items and parts, like test equipment, some older radio stuff (tubes), &c. Plus a lot of other cool/useful/practical stuff. Of course there will be some much more vintagey computers available as well but those will be selling for "real" money. Everything above is offered for cheap. If you'd like to come roam the warehouse in Livermore and shop for bargains then send me an e-mail and we'll set up an appointment. At this point I'm available through November 15th here. After that, everyone just goes away. Thanks! -- Sellam ibn Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 3 15:37:27 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 13:37:27 -0800 Subject: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890] In-Reply-To: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> On 11/03/2015 11:56 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Rich Alderson > >> You know, the same company that does not have dis[kc]s, but DASD. > > Some guy from IBM came to MIT to give a talk about some database > system that they had, and he kept referring to 'DASD'. Puzzled looks. > Finally some brave soul stuck up his hand, and asked was a DASD might > be. Quoth the guy, 'round brown'! :-) He was actually very sharp, and > we liked his system, but I don't recall anything about it, other than > that line! RMS = "Rotating Mass Storage" = CDC term. --Chuck From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Nov 3 16:28:38 2015 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:28:38 -0600 Subject: Vintage Mac & PC sale @ VCF recycling warehouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56393516.7050100@ubanproductions.com> Hi Sellam, Sorry to hear you are closing up, but understandable. I know you used to have pieces to an Imlac, but I think you already found a home for them (Mr. Dersch perhaps?), if not, I would be interested. Further, I am curious if you have an amber screen Z29 terminal? Best, --tom On 11/3/15 12:48 PM, Sellam ibn Abraham wrote: > > After a dozen years I'm shutting down my e-waste recycling business. In > that time I managed to accumulate a lot of interesting things, including a > lot of vintage PCs that are from a bygone era and have enough unique > features to make them collectible. I have models from various brands > including Packard Bell, Acer, HP, Compaq, Leading Edge, etc. There's also > a stack of at least half a dozen restorable IBM PCs (model 5150). > > I also have a huge selection of Macs, from some 90s and even 80s models > (Mac SE) all the way through the return of Jobs era with the iMac and the > G3's, G4's (aluminum case servers), etc., plus laptops. I have every iMac > color. I was planning to ripen these to 20 years old before I sold them > on eBay for silly sums but I'll start letting them go still green and you > can ripen them in your garage. > > Keyboards and mice also available to make complete systems. I also have > lots of other vintage electronics, including whole items and parts, like > test equipment, some older radio stuff (tubes), &c. Plus a lot of other > cool/useful/practical stuff. > > Of course there will be some much more vintagey computers available as > well but those will be selling for "real" money. Everything above is > offered for cheap. > > If you'd like to come roam the warehouse in Livermore and shop for > bargains then send me an e-mail and we'll set up an appointment. At this > point I'm available through November 15th here. After that, everyone just > goes away. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam ibn Abraham VintageTech > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com > > Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. > > > * * * NOTICE * * * > > Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has > been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered > reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of > this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational > purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers > against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. > From applecorey at optonline.net Tue Nov 3 17:12:39 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 18:12:39 -0500 Subject: Micro-Altair tape interface In-Reply-To: <5638D956.3030405@charter.net> References: <5638D956.3030405@charter.net> Message-ID: <502676FD-4E20-4DD9-AAA8-581B39775C7C@optonline.net> The MITS cassette wasn't actually that bad. Mine has been spot on since I used an oscilloscope to calibrate it. I think the big problem was MITS offered multiple calibration instructions which ranged from using nothing but a screwdriver and the lights on the front panel to a voltmeter and if you could afford one, exacting instructions using a dual channel scope. The only reliable one is the scope. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Nov 3, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> On 11/2/2015 11:54 PM, dave at 661.org wrote: >> >> As I finally complete my Micro-Altair kit from Briel Computers, my >> thoughts turn to the question of how I can get an audio tape interface >> working on this machine. >> >> I understand that the MITS tape controller is essentially a serial port >> with a simple modem bolted on the rear. > > Yes, exactly - but IIRC it was TTL level. And didn't work all that > well. It wasn't too long before I acquired a Processor Technology CUTS > tape interface, which worked only slightly better. At one point I > re-purposed said MITS tape interface serial port (removing the tape > interface portion) and used it to connect to my Atari 800 serial port, > providing printer and disk services to the Atari. > > JRJ From applecorey at optonline.net Tue Nov 3 17:12:39 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 18:12:39 -0500 Subject: Micro-Altair tape interface In-Reply-To: <5638D956.3030405@charter.net> References: <5638D956.3030405@charter.net> Message-ID: <502676FD-4E20-4DD9-AAA8-581B39775C7C@optonline.net> The MITS cassette wasn't actually that bad. Mine has been spot on since I used an oscilloscope to calibrate it. I think the big problem was MITS offered multiple calibration instructions which ranged from using nothing but a screwdriver and the lights on the front panel to a voltmeter and if you could afford one, exacting instructions using a dual channel scope. The only reliable one is the scope. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Nov 3, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> On 11/2/2015 11:54 PM, dave at 661.org wrote: >> >> As I finally complete my Micro-Altair kit from Briel Computers, my >> thoughts turn to the question of how I can get an audio tape interface >> working on this machine. >> >> I understand that the MITS tape controller is essentially a serial port >> with a simple modem bolted on the rear. > > Yes, exactly - but IIRC it was TTL level. And didn't work all that > well. It wasn't too long before I acquired a Processor Technology CUTS > tape interface, which worked only slightly better. At one point I > re-purposed said MITS tape interface serial port (removing the tape > interface portion) and used it to connect to my Atari 800 serial port, > providing printer and disk services to the Atari. > > JRJ From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 17:53:51 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 12:53:51 +1300 Subject: IBM System/32 available Message-ID: Folks, I've been offered an IBM System/32. Location is close to LA. Condition appears pretty decent. If I can't take the offer up, would anyone else be interested? Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 18:14:07 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 19:14:07 -0500 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds good. I'll take it. You can just drop it off at my house in South Eastern PA, thanks. Contact me off list. Oh, and I am only available on March 11 at 4PM-445. Hopefully you can hold onto it for me. I'll trade you a C64, powers up. Bill On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Folks, > > I've been offered an IBM System/32. Location is close to LA. Condition > appears pretty decent. > > If I can't take the offer up, would anyone else be interested? > > Thanks > > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > -- Bill From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Nov 3 18:33:29 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:33:29 -0800 Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: References: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> <000a01d11664$13d100a0$3b7301e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <009601d11698$6e1b54a0$4a51fde0$@net> > > > > Does anyone happen to have a copy of ftp://omen.com? There were a few > > things I would have liked. > > ----- Interesting, I didn't realize Omen was still up and operating until a few days ago. I actually own my own registered copy of Z-Modem from those guys (this was in the days before Z-Modem was a built in protocol in every major telecom package). I would have loved to get an updated version but alas it seems that will not be possible anymore. May he rest in peace. -Ali From connork at connorsdomain.com Tue Nov 3 19:15:28 2015 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 20:15:28 -0500 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56395C30.3060508@connorsdomain.com> On 11/3/2015 6:53 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Folks, > > I've been offered an IBM System/32. Location is close to LA. Condition > appears pretty decent. > > If I can't take the offer up, would anyone else be interested? > > Thanks > > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' Oh how I wish... I'll trade you an IBM z890, you just have to remove it from a basement :P -Connor K From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 3 21:17:13 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 19:17:13 -0800 Subject: Chuck Forsberg died on 9/24. :( In-Reply-To: <009601d11698$6e1b54a0$4a51fde0$@net> References: <20151103044415.GY8939@gmail.com> <563849B0.1020105@jwsss.com> <000a01d11664$13d100a0$3b7301e0$@classiccmp.org> <009601d11698$6e1b54a0$4a51fde0$@net> Message-ID: <563978B9.4030007@sydex.com> On 11/03/2015 04:33 PM, Ali wrote: > Interesting, I didn't realize Omen was still up and operating until a > few days ago. I actually own my own registered copy of Z-Modem from > those guys (this was in the days before Z-Modem was a built in > protocol in every major telecom package). I would have loved to get > an updated version but alas it seems that will not be possible > anymore. May he rest in peace. Same here. It was required with a BBS package as an external protocol. I still have the 5.25" floppy. --Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 4 01:25:54 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 08:25:54 +0100 Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Nov 03, 2015 at 01:37:27PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > RMS = "Rotating Mass Storage" = CDC term. That so explains this picture: https://stallman.org/RMS_13_bendicindo.jpg :-D /P From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 4 01:42:13 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 23:42:13 -0800 Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> On 11/03/2015 11:25 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, Nov 03, 2015 at 01:37:27PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> RMS = "Rotating Mass Storage" = CDC term. > > That so explains this picture: > > https://stallman.org/RMS_13_bendicindo.jpg > > :-D Cool. How about "label" versus VTOC versus "folder" versus "directory" versus "FNT"...versus...? So many names... --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 06:58:26 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 07:58:26 -0500 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 Message-ID: <2B8819849D4441F2A2A00E5AFCFAC96B@310e2> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Rubin" > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 10:13 PM > > Here are some of my photos from VCF-Berlin - > http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-2015 . More narrative is > at the Vintage Computer Forum - > http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-vcfd . Enjoy - I > certainly did! > > Jack > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Stein" Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 11:30 AM > Hi Jack, > > Unfortunately I can't access the pictures on VCF ... etc. Getting back to the point before this went seriously off-topic, are other non-VCF-members also unable to see these pictures on VCF? If so, would it make sense when posting things like this on VCF to use links instead of or in addition to uploading and embedding them there? m From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 07:03:24 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 08:03:24 -0500 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <2B8819849D4441F2A2A00E5AFCFAC96B@310e2> References: <2B8819849D4441F2A2A00E5AFCFAC96B@310e2> Message-ID: > > > > Getting back to the point before this went seriously off-topic, are other > non-VCF-members also unable to see these pictures on VCF? > > If so, would it make sense when posting things like this on VCF to use > links instead of or in addition to uploading and embedding them there? > > m > ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/vcfb2105/index_5.html -- Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 07:13:59 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 08:13:59 -0500 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: References: <2B8819849D4441F2A2A00E5AFCFAC96B@310e2> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:03 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> >> Getting back to the point before this went seriously off-topic, are other >> non-VCF-members also unable to see these pictures on VCF? >> >> If so, would it make sense when posting things like this on VCF to use >> links instead of or in addition to uploading and embedding them there? >> >> m >> > > > ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/vcfb2105/index_5.html > -- > Bill > > Of note... ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/vcfb2105/content/TB8A3350_large.html ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/vcfb2105/content/TB8A3349_large.html -- Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 4 09:36:17 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 10:36:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 Message-ID: <20151104153617.2A25C18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > Of note... Anyone know what the two indicator panels on top of the large blue box in the center of this one: ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/vcfb2105/content/TB8A3377_large.html are? They look to be PDP-10 {something}, given what appear to be two rows of 36 lights on the bottom (although they are hard to see clearly), but I couldn't find a panel like that in my PDP-10 manual. Noel From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Nov 4 10:07:48 2015 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:07:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <20151104153617.2A25C18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151104153617.2A25C18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <97665839.3365044.1446653268907.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> > Anyone know what the two indicator panels on top of the large blue box in the > center of this one: > > ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/vcfb2105/content/TB8A3377_large.html > > are? They look to be PDP-10 {something}, given what appear to be two rows > of > 36 lights on the bottom (although they are hard to see clearly), but I > couldn't find a panel like that in my PDP-10 manual. > > Noel > If think that the left console panel is from a PDP-15. Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 4 10:42:01 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 08:42:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Cool. How about "label" versus VTOC versus "folder" versus "directory" > versus "FNT"...versus...? > So many names... Was it considered "copyright infringement" to use the same terminology as somebody else? Like "standards" everybody had a unique one of their own. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 10:52:52 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 11:52:52 -0500 Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> Message-ID: <019EE730-65EF-4FCE-82BD-52DD5C126DE9@comcast.net> > On Nov 4, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Cool. How about "label" versus VTOC versus "folder" versus "directory" versus "FNT"...versus...? >> So many names... > > Was it considered "copyright infringement" to use the same terminology as somebody else? No, it could not be. It could be trademark infringement if the term in question was considered a trademark by its originator, but terms like the ones we've been talking about have never been trademarks. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 4 11:05:10 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 09:05:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: <019EE730-65EF-4FCE-82BD-52DD5C126DE9@comcast.net> References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> <019EE730-65EF-4FCE-82BD-52DD5C126DE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: >>> Cool. How about "label" versus VTOC versus "folder" versus "directory" versus "FNT"...versus...? >>> So many names... >> Was it considered "copyright infringement" to use the same terminology as somebody else? On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > No, it could not be. It could be trademark infringement if the term in question was considered a trademark by its originator, but terms like the ones we've been talking about have never been trademarks. Sarcasm is not obvious?? The lack of emoticons is why people today only see children's stories in Gulliver's Travels, instead of the nasty social commentary. My comment was not a serious question about the LAW. It was about the idiocy of creating a new set of names for parts that were the same, by each manufacturer. And speculating that maybe they were so idiotic that THEY considered it to be "copyright infringement". "Hmmm. What else could we call the keyboard?" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 4 11:08:38 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 09:08:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> <019EE730-65EF-4FCE-82BD-52DD5C126DE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: > "Hmmm. What else could we call the keyboard?" > FADID. Where do I send the consulting bill? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 4 11:14:46 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 09:14:46 -0800 Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> Message-ID: <563A3D06.7080303@sydex.com> On 11/04/2015 08:42 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Was it considered "copyright infringement" to use the same > terminology as somebody else? Like "standards" everybody had a > unique one of their own. I don't think so; they're just terms of art. But didn't/doesn't Intel claim copyright on their opcode mnemonics? I can't see how that could possibly work out. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 4 11:16:36 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 09:16:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> <019EE730-65EF-4FCE-82BD-52DD5C126DE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: >> "Hmmm. What else could we call the keyboard?" On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, geneb wrote: > FADID. Where do I send the consulting bill? I'm not familiar with that one. It just might be unique enough to keep anybody from confusing our fadids from somebody else's keyboards From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 4 11:24:16 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 09:24:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> <019EE730-65EF-4FCE-82BD-52DD5C126DE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> "Hmmm. What else could we call the keyboard?" > > On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, geneb wrote: >> FADID. Where do I send the consulting bill? > > I'm not familiar with that one. > It just might be unique enough to keep anybody from confusing our fadids from > somebody else's keyboards Finger Accessible Data Input Device. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 11:36:19 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 09:36:19 -0800 Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> <019EE730-65EF-4FCE-82BD-52DD5C126DE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:24 AM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>> "Hmmm. What else could we call the keyboard?" >>>> >>> >> On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, geneb wrote: >> >>> FADID. Where do I send the consulting bill? >>> >> >> I'm not familiar with that one. >> It just might be unique enough to keep anybody from confusing our fadids >> from somebody else's keyboards >> > > Finger Accessible Data Input Device. > > DADDID -- Digit Accessible Digital Data Input Device -- Charles From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 4 11:37:22 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 11:37:22 -0600 Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> Message-ID: <563A4252.40503@pico-systems.com> On 11/04/2015 10:42 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 3 Nov 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Cool. How about "label" versus VTOC versus "folder" >> versus "directory" versus "FNT"...versus...? >> So many names... > > Was it considered "copyright infringement" to use the same > terminology as somebody else? Like "standards" everybody > had a unique one of their own. > > > > But, IBM had a WHOLE dictionary full of IBM-specific terms for everything. memory was storage (or main storage) disks were direct access storage devices (DASD) tapes were sequential access the register set of the 360 was local store (or local storage) microcode was in control store and, there is a LOT more of this that escapes me at the moment. Jon From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 4 11:46:39 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 09:46:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> <019EE730-65EF-4FCE-82BD-52DD5C126DE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, Charles Anthony wrote: >>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2015, geneb wrote: >>> >>>> FADID. Where do I send the consulting bill? >>>> >>> >>> I'm not familiar with that one. >>> It just might be unique enough to keep anybody from confusing our fadids >>> from somebody else's keyboards >>> >> >> Finger Accessible Data Input Device. >> >> DADDID -- Digit Accessible Digital Data Input Device > *hiss* A competitor! I'll sue! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 11:49:31 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 13:49:31 -0400 Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: <563A4252.40503@pico-systems.com> References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> <563A4252.40503@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <563A452B.3010103@gmail.com> On 2015-11-04 1:37 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/04/2015 10:42 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Tue, 3 Nov 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Cool. How about "label" versus VTOC versus "folder" versus >>> "directory" versus "FNT"...versus...? >>> So many names... >> >> Was it considered "copyright infringement" to use the same >> terminology as somebody else? Like "standards" everybody had a >> unique one of their own. >> >> >> >> > But, IBM had a WHOLE dictionary full of IBM-specific terms for > everything. > > memory was storage (or main storage) > disks were direct access storage devices (DASD) > tapes were sequential access > the register set of the 360 was local store (or local storage) > microcode was in control store > and, there is a LOT more of this that escapes me at the moment. > > Jon ROS (Read Only Memory) On S/38 and descendants disk storage is referred to as Auxiliary Storage and is grouped in pools know as ASP or Auxiliary Storage Pool On some systems you had to IML (Initial Microcode Load) before IPL also for machines like terminal controllers the control program was called microcode so when you started it up you would do an IML. Paul. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 13:00:05 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:00:05 +1300 Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: <563A4252.40503@pico-systems.com> References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> <563A4252.40503@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 6:37 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/04/2015 10:42 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> On Tue, 3 Nov 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>> Cool. How about "label" versus VTOC versus "folder" versus "directory" >>> versus "FNT"...versus...? >>> So many names... >> >> >> Was it considered "copyright infringement" to use the same terminology as >> somebody else? Like "standards" everybody had a unique one of their own. >> >> >> >> > But, IBM had a WHOLE dictionary full of IBM-specific terms for everything. > > memory was storage (or main storage) > disks were direct access storage devices (DASD) > tapes were sequential access > the register set of the 360 was local store (or local storage) > microcode was in control store > and, there is a LOT more of this that escapes me at the moment. Microcode was in ROS - Read-Only Storage... which had different implementations: CCROS - Capacitative Card ROS - in the 2030; TROS - Transformer ROS - in the 2040 etc. etc. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 4 13:07:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 11:07:14 -0800 Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: <563A452B.3010103@gmail.com> References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> <563A4252.40503@pico-systems.com> <563A452B.3010103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <563A5762.6030903@sydex.com> On 11/04/2015 09:49 AM, Paul Berger wrote: > ROS (Read Only Memory) Same for CDC. Given the weird and wonderful storage devices that were developed in earlier days, calling a random-access (although it could be posited that tape can be random access) storage device a "disk" is just wrong in may cases. Consider: UNIVAC FASTRAND -- a movable-head jumbo drum. IBM 2321 - Data celld drive NCR CRAM - magnetic card etc. Even now, the use of SSD to describe a bunch of flash devices is wrong--the things aren't even round. --Chuck From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Nov 4 13:18:11 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 19:18:11 +0000 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <97665839.3365044.1446653268907.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20151104153617.2A25C18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <97665839.3365044.1446653268907.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2A95A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: P Gebhardt Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 8:08 AM Noel Chiappa wrote: >> Anyone know what the two indicator panels on top of the large blue box in the >> center of this one: >> ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/vcfb2105/content/TB8A3377_large.html >> are? They look to be PDP-10 {something}, given what appear to be two rows of >> 36 lights on the bottom (although they are hard to see clearly), but I >> couldn't find a panel like that in my PDP-10 manual. > If think that the left console panel is from a PDP-15. I see blue consoles from a PDP-15 and a DECsystem-10 (KI-10). As for the two panels Noel asked about, I've had a look at the chassis which are part of our DEC-1070, and have eliminated the following possibilities: Only 3 rows of lights: ME10 memory MF10 memory TD10 DECtape controller 5 rows of lights: KI-10 CPU bays RH10 Massbus interface DAS33 memory buffer DL10 DC10 4 rows of lights, but do not match: RP10C disk controller DF10C DA28-C RC10 Since they're narrow, they're probably something from a KA-10 system, but I have no idea what. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 4 13:53:58 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 11:53:58 -0800 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2A95A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20151104153617.2A25C18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <97665839.3365044.1446653268907.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2A95A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <563A6256.9060202@bitsavers.org> >>> are? They look to be PDP-10 {something}, given what appear to be two rows of >>> 36 lights on the bottom (although they are hard to see clearly), but I >>> couldn't find a panel like that in my PDP-10 manual. > I don't have time to go down this rathole right now. If you are sure they are off a 10, check the peripheral controller manuals on bitsavers under pdp10/periph From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Wed Nov 4 14:24:04 2015 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?iso-8859-1?Q?St=FCber?=) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:24:04 +0100 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Hi, On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 02:38:28PM +0000, rod wrote: > Why would they keep such an event hidden? I'm sorry for not announcing the event on the list. I didn't expect so much interest from people outside of Germany, especially with the Classic Computing 2015 happening at the same time in France. I promise I'll announce it next year! It'll take place at the beginning of October again. For those who missed it this year, here[0] are the recordings of the lectures (mostly German). Thanks to all who posted their photos of VCFB! Regards, Anke [0] https://media.ccc.de/c/vcfb15 From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 14:36:24 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:36:24 -0500 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: Lee Felsenstein did a talk. https://media.ccc.de/v/vcfb2015_-_41_-_en_-_medientheater_-_201510031730_-_opening_the_door_to_cyberspace_-_lee_felsenstein#video&t=10 On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Anke St?ber wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 02:38:28PM +0000, rod wrote: > > Why would they keep such an event hidden? > > I'm sorry for not announcing the event on the list. I didn't expect so > much interest from people outside of Germany, especially with the > Classic Computing 2015 happening at the same time in France. > > I promise I'll announce it next year! It'll take place at the beginning > of October again. For those who missed it this year, here[0] are the > recordings of the lectures (mostly German). Thanks to all who posted > their photos of VCFB! > > Regards, Anke > > [0] https://media.ccc.de/c/vcfb15 > -- Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 4 14:56:18 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:56:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 Message-ID: <20151104205618.C87DC18C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rich Alderson > I've .. eliminated the following possibilities: Using the decsystem10 System Reference Manual (3rd Edition, August '74), I can additionally eliminate: Only 2 rows of lights: DC10 (picture here doesn't have 5 rows, per below?) > Only 3 rows of lights: > ME10 memory > MF10 memory > TD10 DECtape controller DA10 MA10 MB10 MD10 > 5 rows of lights: > KI-10 CPU bays Would love a picture of these; see pg. F1-5 for why! :-) > RH10 Massbus interface > DAS33 memory buffer > DL10 > DC10 KA10 CPU bays > 4 rows of lights, but do not match: > RP10C disk controller > DF10C > DA28-C > RC10 BA10 DS10 TM10 That's getting to be a pretty complete list... Noel From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Nov 4 15:07:15 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:07:15 -0600 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 12:53:51PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > I've been offered an IBM System/32. Location is close to LA. Condition > appears pretty decent. > > If I can't take the offer up, would anyone else be interested? I'd love one, and I'm not too terribly far from LA, but it's probably the wrong LA. I'm Cajun. To me LA = Louisiana. And while I'd love one I don't have the room for one or hardware skills to get one going. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 15:18:56 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:18:56 -0600 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 12:53:51PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > > > I've been offered an IBM System/32. Location is close to LA. Condition > > appears pretty decent. > > > > If I can't take the offer up, would anyone else be interested? > > I'd love one, and I'm not too terribly far from LA, but it's probably the > wrong LA. I'm Cajun. To me LA = Louisiana. > Here I was thinking Lower Alabama... Kyle From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Wed Nov 4 15:34:44 2015 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?iso-8859-1?Q?St=FCber?=) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:34:44 +0100 Subject: Vintage computing events in Germany [Was: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015] In-Reply-To: <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: <20151104213443.GC22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Hi, On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 09:24:04PM +0100, Anke St?ber wrote: > [?] Classic Computing 2015 [?] btw, there are more vintage computing events in and around Germany that I don't recall being mentioned on the list, like Classic Computing[0] (usually in Germany, varying cities) and VCFe/CH[1] (Switzerland, Winterthur, unfortunately not happening this year). Also VCFe[2] (Germany, Munich) hasn't been mentioned in a while. If there is any interest, I can post announcements for those events in advance. Regards, Anke [0] http://www.classic-computing.org/page/pages/classic-computing-2015.php [1] http://vcfe.org/E/VCFe-CH.html [2] http://vcfe.org/E/ From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Nov 4 16:46:47 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:46:47 +0100 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2A95A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20151104153617.2A25C18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <97665839.3365044.1446653268907.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2A95A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <563A8AD7.8030409@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-04 20:18, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: P Gebhardt > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 8:08 AM > > Noel Chiappa wrote: > >>> Anyone know what the two indicator panels on top of the large blue box in the >>> center of this one: > >>> ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/vcfb2105/content/TB8A3377_large.html > >>> are? They look to be PDP-10 {something}, given what appear to be two rows of >>> 36 lights on the bottom (although they are hard to see clearly), but I >>> couldn't find a panel like that in my PDP-10 manual. > >> If think that the left console panel is from a PDP-15. > > I see blue consoles from a PDP-15 and a DECsystem-10 (KI-10). > > As for the two panels Noel asked about, I've had a look at the chassis which > are part of our DEC-1070, and have eliminated the following possibilities: > > Only 3 rows of lights: > ME10 memory > MF10 memory > TD10 DECtape controller > > 5 rows of lights: > KI-10 CPU bays > RH10 Massbus interface > DAS33 memory buffer > DL10 > DC10 > > 4 rows of lights, but do not match: > RP10C disk controller > DF10C > DA28-C > RC10 > > Since they're narrow, they're probably something from a KA-10 system, but I > have no idea what. They could be from a PDP-11 or PDP-8 as well. The RP11 controller, for example, I seem to remember had panels like that. Can't recall any PDP-8 stuff at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I've seen something like that for a PDP-8 as well. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chrise at pobox.com Wed Nov 4 18:39:20 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:39:20 -0600 Subject: RMS [was Re: Terminology [was RE: IBM z890]] In-Reply-To: References: <20151103195637.2A52618C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56392917.9000103@sydex.com> <20151104072554.GB7249@Update.UU.SE> <5639B6D5.8050302@sydex.com> <019EE730-65EF-4FCE-82BD-52DD5C126DE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20151105003919.GW3568@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (11/04/2015 at 09:05AM -0800), Fred Cisin wrote: > > My comment was not a serious question about the LAW. It was about > the idiocy of creating a new set of names for parts that were the > same, by each manufacturer. And speculating that maybe they were so > idiotic that THEY considered it to be "copyright infringement". > "Hmmm. What else could we call the keyboard?" Is this how we get Sketches and Shields instead of Programs and Daughterboards from the Parallel Universe known as Arduino Land? Don't mind me... I'll get back to working on my Beaglebone Cape. -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 4 19:35:51 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:35:51 -0800 Subject: ID-ing a PC backup format Message-ID: <563AB277.8040406@sydex.com> I've got a set of mystery 5.25" DD floppies that appear to be a backup of some sort. 10 x 512 byte sectors per track, 40 cylinders, double-sided. Normal sector IDs (Side 0: 0/ Side 1: 1), 1-10. No, it's not FASTBACK nor does it appear to be Central Point's PC Backup. The start of the first sector of the first floppy looks like this: 000000 50 43 42 41 43 4B 55 50-2E 01 00 50 43 42 00 06 000010 04 00 69 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 000020 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 000030 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 01 01 01 01 000040 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01-01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 000050 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01-01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 000060 01 01 01 01 01 5A 5A 5A-5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 000070 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A-5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 000080 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A-5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 52 13 C5 000090 9A 01 00 1E 00 01 00 54-55 52 42 4F 43 5C 00 00 Note that it starts off with 'PCBACKUP'. This doesn't seem to match anything in my library. Anyone got any ideas. Oh yeah, this would be circa 1989 or so. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 4 19:48:36 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:48:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: ID-ing a PC backup format In-Reply-To: <563AB277.8040406@sydex.com> References: <563AB277.8040406@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201511050148.UAA14077@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I've got a set of mystery 5.25" DD floppies that appear to be a > backup of some sort. [...] > The start of the first sector of the first floppy looks like this: > 000000 50 43 42 41 43 4B 55 50-2E 01 00 50 43 42 00 06 [...] > 000090 9A 01 00 1E 00 01 00 54-55 52 42 4F 43 5C 00 00 > Note that it starts off with 'PCBACKUP'. This doesn't seem to match > anything in my library. Anyone got any ideas. Well, just in case you managed to miss it, note the "TURBOC\" string starting at offet 000097. I don't know whether this is the name of the directory being backed up or some indication that it's a Turbo C backup program or what, but it might be some kind of clue. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 4 20:26:33 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:26:33 -0800 Subject: ID-ing a PC backup format In-Reply-To: <201511050148.UAA14077@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <563AB277.8040406@sydex.com> <201511050148.UAA14077@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <563ABE59.7050909@sydex.com> On 11/04/2015 05:48 PM, Mouse wrote: > Well, just in case you managed to miss it, note the "TURBOC\" string > starting at offet 000097. I don't know whether this is the name of > the directory being backed up or some indication that it's a Turbo C > backup program or what, but it might be some kind of clue. The paper label says "TURBO C BACKUP", so I assume that's what's being backed up. Unfortunately, I don't know if any other files other than the ones related to Borland Turbo C are present. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 22:48:09 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:48:09 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover Message-ID: <563ADF89.6060308@gmail.com> Subject line says it all -- I'm looking for the top/side cover for the "slim" PDP-11/05. Probably not infeasible to build one, but I figured I'd ask around first. Got lucky on a cheap 8KW core plane (H214) on eBay to replace the damaged one the /05 came with (which we had a discussion about last year), and everything seems to be working fine other than a completely dead Boxer fan (a replacement is on the way), I'd like to find the top cover to help with air flow/cooling. And so I can put things on top of it :). Thanks, Josh From steven at malikoff.com Wed Nov 4 23:05:12 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:05:12 +1000 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover In-Reply-To: <563ADF89.6060308@gmail.com> References: <563ADF89.6060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover From: "Josh Dersch" Date: Thu, November 5, 2015 2:48 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Subject line says it all -- I'm looking for the top/side cover for the > "slim" PDP-11/05. Probably not infeasible to build one, but I figured > I'd ask around first. > > Got lucky on a cheap 8KW core plane (H214) on eBay to replace the > damaged one the /05 came with (which we had a discussion about last > year), and everything seems to be working fine other than a completely > dead Boxer fan (a replacement is on the way), I'd like to find the top > cover to help with air flow/cooling. And so I can put things on top of > it :). > > Thanks, > Josh > > If you can't find them, here's a CAD drawing I did for the panels you need: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?43897-PDP-11-05-top-and-side-panels-drawing I have not yet found the exact style of Dzus fastener for it yet, but eBay and suppliers have similar ones. Steve. From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 23:25:40 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:25:40 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover In-Reply-To: References: <563ADF89.6060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <563AE854.9080205@gmail.com> On 11/4/15 9:05 PM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- > Subject: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover > From: "Josh Dersch" > Date: Thu, November 5, 2015 2:48 pm > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Subject line says it all -- I'm looking for the top/side cover for the >> "slim" PDP-11/05. Probably not infeasible to build one, but I figured >> I'd ask around first. >> >> Got lucky on a cheap 8KW core plane (H214) on eBay to replace the >> damaged one the /05 came with (which we had a discussion about last >> year), and everything seems to be working fine other than a completely >> dead Boxer fan (a replacement is on the way), I'd like to find the top >> cover to help with air flow/cooling. And so I can put things on top of >> it :). >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> > If you can't find them, here's a CAD drawing I did for the panels you need: > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?43897-PDP-11-05-top-and-side-panels-drawing > > I have not yet found the exact style of Dzus fastener for it yet, but eBay and suppliers have > similar ones. > > Steve. > > Very cool, thanks! - osh From steven at malikoff.com Wed Nov 4 23:31:32 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:31:32 +1000 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover In-Reply-To: <563AE854.9080205@gmail.com> References: <563ADF89.6060308@gmail.com> <563AE854.9080205@gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover From: "Josh Dersch" Date: Thu, November 5, 2015 3:25 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/4/15 9:05 PM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: >> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- >> Subject: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover >> From: "Josh Dersch" >> Date: Thu, November 5, 2015 2:48 pm >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> Subject line says it all -- I'm looking for the top/side cover for the >>> "slim" PDP-11/05. Probably not infeasible to build one, but I figured >>> I'd ask around first. >>> >>> Got lucky on a cheap 8KW core plane (H214) on eBay to replace the >>> damaged one the /05 came with (which we had a discussion about last >>> year), and everything seems to be working fine other than a completely >>> dead Boxer fan (a replacement is on the way), I'd like to find the top >>> cover to help with air flow/cooling. And so I can put things on top of >>> it :). >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Josh >>> >>> >> If you can't find them, here's a CAD drawing I did for the panels you need: >> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?43897-PDP-11-05-top-and-side-panels-drawing >> >> I have not yet found the exact style of Dzus fastener for it yet, but eBay and suppliers have >> similar ones. >> >> Steve. >> >> > > Very cool, thanks! > > - osh > No worries. I forgot to mention that, as far as I know, the slimline 3RU (5-1/4") PDP-11/05 case (and LPS-11) was known as the H909-BA enclosure. The H909-BA came with the H755 power supply and BC05 power control unit as available from DEC, and the H909-A was the same but without the power supply. Steve. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Nov 5 01:03:03 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:03:03 +0000 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: <563AFF27.3060206@btinternet.com> Hi Anke Vielen Dank f?r Ihre E-Mail Ja, ich h?tte jedoch gerne bei der Show ich Ersatz des vorderen Panels f?r PDP-Computern Rod Smallwood On 04/11/15 20:24, Anke St?ber wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 02:38:28PM +0000, rod wrote: >> Why would they keep such an event hidden? > I'm sorry for not announcing the event on the list. I didn't expect so > much interest from people outside of Germany, especially with the > Classic Computing 2015 happening at the same time in France. > > I promise I'll announce it next year! It'll take place at the beginning > of October again. For those who missed it this year, here[0] are the > recordings of the lectures (mostly German). Thanks to all who posted > their photos of VCFB! > > Regards, Anke > > [0] https://media.ccc.de/c/vcfb15 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Nov 5 01:33:56 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:33:56 +0000 Subject: Vintage computing events in Germany [Was: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015] In-Reply-To: <20151104213443.GC22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <20151104213443.GC22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: <563B0664.9070200@btinternet.com> Hi Anke (I'll use English for the benefit of rest of the list) I would love to hear about any vintage computer shows anywhere in Western Europe. Please add my name to your mailing list. Whilst a lot of us are American Not all of us are (I'm English) and so there are some living this side of the Atlantic. Rod Smallwood On 04/11/15 21:34, Anke St?ber wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 09:24:04PM +0100, Anke St?ber wrote: >> [?] Classic Computing 2015 [?] > btw, there are more vintage computing events in and around Germany that > I don't recall being mentioned on the list, like Classic Computing[0] > (usually in Germany, varying cities) and VCFe/CH[1] (Switzerland, > Winterthur, unfortunately not happening this year). Also VCFe[2] > (Germany, Munich) hasn't been mentioned in a while. > > If there is any interest, I can post announcements for those events in > advance. > > Regards, Anke > > [0] http://www.classic-computing.org/page/pages/classic-computing-2015.php > [1] http://vcfe.org/E/VCFe-CH.html > [2] http://vcfe.org/E/ From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 04:19:41 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:19:41 -0500 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover In-Reply-To: <563ADF89.6060308@gmail.com> References: <563ADF89.6060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've got one. Just pay shipping and it's yours. I don't expect to ever get the 11/05 to go with it ;-) Joe > On Nov 4, 2015, at 11:48 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Subject line says it all -- I'm looking for the top/side cover for the "slim" PDP-11/05. Probably not infeasible to build one, but I figured I'd ask around first. > > Got lucky on a cheap 8KW core plane (H214) on eBay to replace the damaged one the /05 came with (which we had a discussion about last year), and everything seems to be working fine other than a completely dead Boxer fan (a replacement is on the way), I'd like to find the top cover to help with air flow/cooling. And so I can put things on top of it :). > > Thanks, > Josh > From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Thu Nov 5 06:51:59 2015 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 04:51:59 -0800 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2A95A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20151104153617.2A25C18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <97665839.3365044.1446653268907.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2A95A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <905EC4EF805F4848AF13BBD64A86BF32@Vincew7> From: Rich Alderson: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 11:18 AM > 4 rows of lights, but do not match: > RP10C disk controller > DF10C > DA28-C > RC10 > > Since they're narrow, they're probably something from a KA-10 system, but I > have no idea what. A higher resolution picture: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5wSsDk45Uo8/VhUNSLZw6ZI/AAAAAAAAAOY/rUzAwAung10/d-Ic42/P1040901.JPG from https://picasaweb.google.com/103698294498431095372/VCFB2015 The tags say DEC PDP-10 - tape controller, 1973 retrocmp.com, c-c-g.de DEC PDP-10 - disk controller, 1973 retrocmp.com, c-c-g.de for what that's worth. Maybe the owner of the panels knows something? Vince From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 08:03:55 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:03:55 +0100 Subject: Vintage computing events in Germany [Was: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015] In-Reply-To: <20151104213443.GC22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <20151104213443.GC22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: On 4 November 2015 at 22:34, Anke St?ber wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 09:24:04PM +0100, Anke St?ber wrote: >> [?] Classic Computing 2015 [?] > > btw, there are more vintage computing events in and around Germany that > I don't recall being mentioned on the list, like Classic Computing[0] > (usually in Germany, varying cities) and VCFe/CH[1] (Switzerland, > Winterthur, unfortunately not happening this year). Also VCFe[2] > (Germany, Munich) hasn't been mentioned in a while. > > If there is any interest, I can post announcements for those events in > advance. Echoing whjat -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 08:04:54 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:04:54 +0100 Subject: Vintage computing events in Germany [Was: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015] In-Reply-To: References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <20151104213443.GC22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: On 5 November 2015 at 15:03, Liam Proven wrote: > On 4 November 2015 at 22:34, Anke St?ber wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 09:24:04PM +0100, Anke St?ber wrote: >>> [?] Classic Computing 2015 [?] >> >> btw, there are more vintage computing events in and around Germany that >> I don't recall being mentioned on the list, like Classic Computing[0] >> (usually in Germany, varying cities) and VCFe/CH[1] (Switzerland, >> Winterthur, unfortunately not happening this year). Also VCFe[2] >> (Germany, Munich) hasn't been mentioned in a while. >> >> If there is any interest, I can post announcements for those events in >> advance. > > > Echoing whjat I appear to have managed to hit UNDO and SEND in a single keystroke. >_< That previously read: Echoing what Rod said -- yes, please do! (A Brit in Central Europe writes.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 5 08:13:03 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:13:03 +0100 Subject: Vintage computing events in Germany [Was: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015] In-Reply-To: References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <20151104213443.GC22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: <004e01d117d4$16f90860$44eb1920$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Liam Proven > Verzonden: donderdag 5 november 2015 15:05 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Vintage computing events in Germany [Was: Re: VCF-Berlin, > 2015] > > On 5 November 2015 at 15:03, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 4 November 2015 at 22:34, Anke St?ber wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 09:24:04PM +0100, Anke St?ber wrote: > >>> [?] Classic Computing 2015 [?] > >> > >> btw, there are more vintage computing events in and around Germany > >> that I don't recall being mentioned on the list, like Classic > >> Computing[0] (usually in Germany, varying cities) and VCFe/CH[1] > >> (Switzerland, Winterthur, unfortunately not happening this year). > >> Also VCFe[2] (Germany, Munich) hasn't been mentioned in a while. > >> > >> If there is any interest, I can post announcements for those events > >> in advance. > > > > > > Echoing whjat > > I appear to have managed to hit UNDO and SEND in a single keystroke. >_< > > That previously read: > > Echoing what Rod said -- yes, please do! > Me too, please -Rik From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 5 08:23:53 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:23:53 -0800 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <905EC4EF805F4848AF13BBD64A86BF32@Vincew7> References: <20151104153617.2A25C18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <97665839.3365044.1446653268907.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2A95A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <905EC4EF805F4848AF13BBD64A86BF32@Vincew7> Message-ID: <563B6679.10003@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/15 4:51 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > The tags say > DEC PDP-10 - tape controller, 1973 > retrocmp.com, c-c-g.de > They are both disk controller panels. The one marked tape controller has "sector word count" in the upper right From cube1 at charter.net Thu Nov 5 09:00:01 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:00:01 -0600 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover In-Reply-To: References: <563ADF89.6060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <563B6EF1.8040900@charter.net> You wouldn't happen to have the side panel (the left side - that covers the boards)? I have a GT40 that would like to have one. ;) On 11/5/2015 4:19 AM, Joseph Lang wrote: > I've got one. Just pay shipping and it's yours. I don't expect to ever get the 11/05 to go with it ;-) > > Joe > >> On Nov 4, 2015, at 11:48 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> Subject line says it all -- I'm looking for the top/side cover for the "slim" PDP-11/05. Probably not infeasible to build one, but I figured I'd ask around first. >> >> Got lucky on a cheap 8KW core plane (H214) on eBay to replace the damaged one the /05 came with (which we had a discussion about last year), and everything seems to be working fine other than a completely dead Boxer fan (a replacement is on the way), I'd like to find the top cover to help with air flow/cooling. And so I can put things on top of it :). >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 09:35:43 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:35:43 +0000 Subject: Vintage computing events in Germany [Was: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015] In-Reply-To: <004e01d117d4$16f90860$44eb1920$@xs4all.nl> References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <20151104213443.GC22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <004e01d117d4$16f90860$44eb1920$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Me too On Nov 5, 2015 5:12 PM, "Rik Bos" wrote: > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Liam Proven > > Verzonden: donderdag 5 november 2015 15:05 > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Onderwerp: Re: Vintage computing events in Germany [Was: Re: VCF-Berlin, > > 2015] > > > > On 5 November 2015 at 15:03, Liam Proven wrote: > > > On 4 November 2015 at 22:34, Anke St?ber wrote: > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 09:24:04PM +0100, Anke St?ber wrote: > > >>> [?] Classic Computing 2015 [?] > > >> > > >> btw, there are more vintage computing events in and around Germany > > >> that I don't recall being mentioned on the list, like Classic > > >> Computing[0] (usually in Germany, varying cities) and VCFe/CH[1] > > >> (Switzerland, Winterthur, unfortunately not happening this year). > > >> Also VCFe[2] (Germany, Munich) hasn't been mentioned in a while. > > >> > > >> If there is any interest, I can post announcements for those events > > >> in advance. > > > > > > > > > Echoing whjat > > > > I appear to have managed to hit UNDO and SEND in a single keystroke. >_< > > > > That previously read: > > > > Echoing what Rod said -- yes, please do! > > > Me too, please > > -Rik > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 5 10:00:23 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:00:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 Message-ID: <20151105160023.0264918C10E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > They could be from a PDP-11 or PDP-8 as well. Not _impossible_ (since the RP11 does have one row of 36 lights - no doubt because it can be used to read packs written by PDP-10's - it's the shift register for reading the bit stream off the drive) but I'd say less likely, given the two rows of 36 bits. Or maybe not; one is a shift register, the other is a Longitudinal Parity accumulator, which would also naturally be the same word length. > The RP11 controller, for example, I seem to remember had panels like > that. In fact, I have a picture of an RP11 panel, and... the one in the back _is_ an RP11! Well, knock me over with a feather! > Can't recall any PDP-8 stuff at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I've > seen something like that for a PDP-8 as well. I've seen images of (or worked out the light pattern for) two, the TS08 and the RK08, and this isn't either one. (Both have only two rows of lights.) I wonder if there's an RP08? {Checks} Yes, there is. Do we have prints? {Checks} Yes. Alas, the scans of the connector pages of the prints are pretty bad, but it doesn't seem to support a display panel. > From: Vincent Slyngstad > A higher resolution picture Oooh, thanks very much, that will be _very_ helpful. > From: Al Kossow > They are both disk controller panels. > The one marked tape controller has "sector word count" Hmm. Could be; now that I have the better picture, let me see what I can turn up. I note the 'sector word count' has 7 bits in it, which kind of implies a PDP-10 - most PDP-11 disks had 512 bytes / 256 words -> 8 bits. Although maybe there are a few early ones that had 256 byte sectors, I have this vague bit set that there were; will have to check that. I think I'm going to have to create a page for DEC indicator pabels! Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 5 10:46:24 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:46:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 Message-ID: <20151105164624.5111B18C110@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > now that I have the better picture, let me see what I can turn up. Got it! It's the _bottom_ indicator panel from an RP15 disk controller - from a PDP-15. I think that's the only DEC controller I've ever seen with _two_ indictor panels on it! And no, the one in the back is not the other RP15 indicator panel; it really is an RP11. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 5 11:29:23 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:29:23 -0800 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <20151105164624.5111B18C110@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151105164624.5111B18C110@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <563B91F3.3020509@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/15 8:46 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > now that I have the better picture, let me see what I can turn up. > > Got it! It's the _bottom_ indicator panel from an RP15 disk controller - from > a PDP-15. I think that's the only DEC controller I've ever seen with _two_ > indictor panels on it! > > And no, the one in the back is not the other RP15 indicator panel; it really > is an RP11. > > Noel > sounds like it was a nicely configured PDP-15. Too bad only the panels seem to exist From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Nov 5 11:57:19 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:57:19 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Pricing Message-ID: <563B987F.9000305@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Ok I now have the pricing for the current run of panels. Featuring all new silk screens. PDP-8/e Type A or B ?65.00 UKP + Ship to US at ?15 UK = ?80.00 = USD $121.00 PDP-8/f or /m ?70.00 UKP + Ship to US at ?15 UK = ?85.00 = USD $130.00 Payment as before to my PayPal account using my email address rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Regards Rod From ball.of.john at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 12:59:03 2015 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 10:59:03 -0800 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been trying for the past week to verify that telephony on my teletype machine (model 33) is functioning properly but the biggest hurdle I am running into is I have nothing to easily dial into. Everyone I know off hand either don't have a modem anymore or theirs is a Winmodem which won't work. There's only one phone line into the residence here and those bluetooth to cellular POTS bridges are too lossy to make do and connect to a machine here. There is that youtube video of the model 37 apparently connecting to a system at the Living Computer Museum in 2013 (MikoF6KZjm0) where they dialed into a BBS I've never seen listed anywhere but the number listed no longer seems to work and in the description it states the service is no longer available. What other public systems are still out there that will work this speed or possibly better yet, is there anyone out there willing to try a teletype-to-teletype conversation? -John From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 5 13:17:07 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:17:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Nov 2015, John Ball wrote: > I've been trying for the past week to verify that telephony on my teletype > machine (model 33) is functioning properly but the biggest hurdle I am > running into is I have nothing to easily dial into. Everyone I know off hand > either don't have a modem anymore or theirs is a Winmodem which won't work. > There's only one phone line into the residence here and those bluetooth to > cellular POTS bridges are too lossy to make do and connect to a machine > here. There is that youtube video of the model 37 apparently connecting to a > system at the Living Computer Museum in 2013 (MikoF6KZjm0) where they dialed > into a BBS I've never seen listed anywhere but the number listed no longer > seems to work and in the description it states the service is no longer > available. What other public systems are still out there that will work this > speed or possibly better yet, is there anyone out there willing to try a > teletype-to-teletype conversation? Is yours ASCII or "Baudot"? (there are some issues of the correct name for that) Some non-computer organizations still have TTY/TDD service for deaf users. That traditionally was "Baudot" at low speed, and some still work. Some are still posted/advertised, but not all are working. There are still some "relay" services available that are a live operator with a voice line and a TTY. From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 13:46:15 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:46:15 -0500 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover In-Reply-To: <563B6EF1.8040900@charter.net> References: <563ADF89.6060308@gmail.com> <563B6EF1.8040900@charter.net> Message-ID: <51688EC4-D350-4599-8D95-D196733B8F7D@gmail.com> Sorry top cover is all I got. I pulled it from a scrap bin when I saw a dec sticker on it. Side cover would not be hard to make. No weird fasteners. Joe > On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:00 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > You wouldn't happen to have the side panel (the left side - that covers > the boards)? I have a GT40 that would like to have one. ;) > >> On 11/5/2015 4:19 AM, Joseph Lang wrote: >> I've got one. Just pay shipping and it's yours. I don't expect to ever get the 11/05 to go with it ;-) >> >> Joe >> >>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 11:48 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> Subject line says it all -- I'm looking for the top/side cover for the "slim" PDP-11/05. Probably not infeasible to build one, but I figured I'd ask around first. >>> >>> Got lucky on a cheap 8KW core plane (H214) on eBay to replace the damaged one the /05 came with (which we had a discussion about last year), and everything seems to be working fine other than a completely dead Boxer fan (a replacement is on the way), I'd like to find the top cover to help with air flow/cooling. And so I can put things on top of it :). >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Josh >>> >> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 5 14:14:50 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:14:50 +0000 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > I've been trying for the past week to verify that telephony on my teletype > > machine (model 33) is functioning properly but the biggest hurdle I am [...] > Is yours ASCII or "Baudot"? (there are some issues of the correct name for > that) If it's a model 33 it has to be ASCII. The 'Baudot' one is the Model 32 IIRC. [Yes OK, there were plenty of other 'Baudot' machines made by Teletype, but the Model 32 is similar to the Model 33] IIRC 'Baudot' should really be called ITA2. ITA5 is ASCII. (ITA = International Telegraph Alphabet). Is ITA1 Morse? What were/are ITA3 and ITA4? The original Baudot code, as used on the 5-key chording keyboard thing was also a 5 level code, but quite different in how the characters were encoded. There was also Murray code which is similar to ITA2 but one major difference is that there are 'letter space' and 'figure space' codes (which move the carriage one character and select the appropriate 'shift' rather than letters and figures shift characters which just select the shift, along with a seprate space character. So in Murray code you could not send ABC12XY63, it would have to be ABC 12 XY 63 -tony From radiotest at juno.com Thu Nov 5 14:37:55 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 15:37:55 -0500 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151105152827.03e6d390@juno.com> At 01:59 PM 11/5/2015, John Ball wrote: >... those bluetooth to cellular POTS bridges are too lossy to make do and connect to a machine here. There is strong possibility that one of those bridges might not work. As a rule the bit-reduction used by cellular phones, VOIP phones, and cable-modem phones renders dialup modems useless, unless you are using something like a fax-capable line. I am developing (it is under construction to add additional features that I need) an Arduino-based central office simulator that will allow two devices to connect to each other as though connected by POTS lines. I began developing it to simplify work in the shop on a variety of broadcast equipment that uses modems, as the only phone line at the house is a cable-modem phone line that does not work with dialup modems. If you had something of that sort I would think it possible to configure a computer to act as the other end of the circuit. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Nov 5 12:40:06 2015 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 19:40:06 +0100 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available Message-ID: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> Those interested can download schematics for the ACI90 / WD9000 PascalMicroengine from my FTP site : ftp.dreesen.ch/WD9000 You might notice sheet 5 missing, that is just the pinout of the PCB edge connector. AFAIK these are not available elsewhere. More to follow whenever I get around to it. And then around 100 / 150 8" floppies to image.... Jos Dreesen From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Thu Nov 5 14:44:45 2015 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 12:44:45 -0800 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20151105152827.03e6d390@juno.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20151105152827.03e6d390@juno.com> Message-ID: <93FB790D-05E1-457D-9845-01D87A395D14@fozztexx.com> > On Nov 5, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > > There is strong possibility that one of those bridges might not work. As a rule the bit-reduction used by cellular phones, VOIP phones, and cable-modem phones renders dialup modems useless, unless you are using something like a fax-capable line. VoIP works fine, it's how I run my BBS. I've had calls connect from 300 to 33600. I've got no analog land line, the modem is connected to an Asterisk PBX. http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/230/using-modems-without-phone-lines I have had absolutely no luck getting modems to connect by sending audio through a cell phone though. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From other at oryx.us Thu Nov 5 14:48:17 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 14:48:17 -0600 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <563BC091.3010407@oryx.us> The Baudot thing sure brings back some memories. I still recall hooking teletype's up thru KW-7 boxes, and performing ryryryryryryryryr test. I don't recall enough of the specifics, but it was either Y = 10101 R = 01010 or reversed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudot_code Jerry On 11/ 5/15 02:14 PM, tony duell wrote: > > The original Baudot code, as used on the 5-key chording keyboard thing > was also a 5 level code, but quite different in how the characters were encoded. There > was also Murray code which is similar to ITA2 but one major difference is that > there are 'letter space' and 'figure space' codes (which move the carriage one character > and select the appropriate 'shift' rather than letters and figures shift characters which > just select the shift, along with a seprate space character. So in Murray code you could > not send ABC12XY63, it would have to be ABC 12 XY 63 > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 5 15:12:48 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 21:12:48 +0000 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20151105152827.03e6d390@juno.com> References: , <7.0.1.0.2.20151105152827.03e6d390@juno.com> Message-ID: > > I am developing (it is under construction to add additional features that I need) an > Arduino-based central office simulator that will allow two devices to connect to each > other as though connected by POTS lines. I began developing it to simplify work in the > shop on a variety of broadcast equipment that uses modems, as the only phone line > at the house is a cable-modem phone line that does not work with dialup modems. Some time back I was thinking of making something similar, although to me it's just a simple state machine and doesn't need a microcontroller. Heck, originally it was done by the telephone company using relays. I don't like using thousands of components when a couple of dozen will do :-) But the control circuit is the easy part, it's things like the power supplies, ringing generator, etc that are the major part of the work. The ringing voltage in particular is a pain, it's AC, and at a fairly low frequency (16.67Hz to 25Hz depending on country). Some devices, particular classic telephones with a mechanical ringer, do not work correctly on a 50Hz or 60Hz ringing voltage taken from a mains transformer. After sketching out a design, I realised that the cost of the main bits (line switching relays, the power supply for the ringing voltage, the 48V PSU for the line 'battery' voltage, etc was comparable to a cheap ready-build device to do much the same job. Of course the ready-built one would be difficult to keep going so I probably wouldn't go that route But anyway, telephone line simulators do turn up on Ebay and I was lucky enough to find a non-working one for (I think) $25. I figured that even if I couldn't fix it it would contain useful bits for power supplies, etc. After fixing the mains switch and reseating the socketed ICs it sprang to life and almost worked. After replacing a couple of LM311 comparators and a 3 terminal regulator it was perfect. This thing is _complicated_. IIRC there are 7 microprocessors/microcontrollers in it. Around 400-500 ICs spread over 3 main PCBs and 7 smaller PCBs (some of which are just switches or connectors). It does do a lot though, it will generate the correct call progress tones and ringing voltage for just about any countries system. It will deliberately introduce noise (from a shift register with XOR feedback) or degrade the line (handled by a classic DSP -- a TMS320 IIRC). Do I need all that for fooling around with old telephones and modems? No. But it was actually the cheapest solution and it is a nice, classic, piece of test gear. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 5 15:18:50 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 21:18:50 +0000 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: <563BC091.3010407@oryx.us> References: , , <563BC091.3010407@oryx.us> Message-ID: > The Baudot thing sure brings back some memories. I still recall hooking > teletype's up thru KW-7 boxes, and performing ryryryryryryryryr test. > > I don't recall enough of the specifics, but it was either > > Y = 10101 > R = 01010 > > or reversed. Ah yes... One of the classic tests for problems in the receiver and comms link, but not the only one. A system with poor low frequency response (for example) might handle alternating mark and space correctly but fall down on things like 11110 I have a test message generator that can sent that, various alternating signals (without start and stop bits), user-entered characters (on a row of switches) and so on. And distort them by lengthening and shortening pulses to check how well the receiving device copes with mangled signals. I also have the distortion measuring set, a special oscilloscope to check for distorted signals, test relays for contact bounce, bias and transit time, etc. I really must get my Creed 7E and 444 running again... -tony From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 16:13:56 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 23:13:56 +0100 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <563BD4A4.7030505@gmail.com> Hello, I'm curious to know if you managed to find some hard sectored floppies to be used with your DG machine... When you wanna have some fun to try, I could send you the current version of the tool to transfer data between DG nova and PC. Unfortunately I have no bootable media yet, but maybe an image could be obtained using SIMH, then transferred to physical floppy to try. Andrea From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Nov 5 16:47:12 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:47:12 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> A new user on the Vintage Computer Forums is posting about what appears to be this machine in random, unrelated threads. In one of them, he shared a System/32 picture which came from the Corestore site. He doesn't have enough posts yet to enable the private message feature, so I don't know how to contact him. His profile says he's in Riverside, CA, which happens to be where I live. I don't have room or spare cash for this computer at this time, but I'd be happy to go look at it for anybody who's interested in it (assuming I find a way to contact the seller). The posting in random threads with somebody else's picture looks a bit hinky, but maybe it's just somebody who isn't familiar with Internet forum etiquette. If this seller and machine are for real, and it's really located in Riverside, then I can look at the machine and report what I see. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Thu Nov 5 16:49:54 2015 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 15:49:54 -0700 (MST) Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Nov 2015, tony duell wrote: > Telegraph Alphabet). Is ITA1 Morse? What were/are ITA3 and ITA4? Which Morse? American Morse of International Morse? The North American railroad telegraphers and Great Lakes radio operators used American Morse and all the rest of us use Continental Morse. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 5 17:05:54 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:05:54 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/15 2:47 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > A new user on the Vintage Computer Forums is posting about what appears to be this machine in random, unrelated threads. In one of them, he shared a System/32 picture which came from the Corestore site. He doesn't have enough posts yet to enable the private message feature, so I don't know how to contact him. His profile says he's in Riverside, CA, which happens to be where I live. I don't have room or spare cash for this computer at this time, but I'd be happy to go look at it for anybody who's interested in it (assuming I find a way to contact the seller). > > The posting in random threads with somebody else's picture looks a bit hinky, but maybe it's just somebody who isn't familiar with Internet forum etiquette. If this seller and machine are for real, and it's really located in Riverside, then I can look at the machine and report what I see. > http://www.angelectronics.org/ Mike should be able to confirm it From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 17:19:55 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 12:19:55 +1300 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: That's the guy I've been talking to. Pissed he's stealing pics from my site. Can someone post the URL or thread where he's using them? Thanks On Nov 5, 2015 3:06 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > On 11/5/15 2:47 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> A new user on the Vintage Computer Forums is posting about what appears >> to be this machine in random, unrelated threads. In one of them, he shared >> a System/32 picture which came from the Corestore site. He doesn't have >> enough posts yet to enable the private message feature, so I don't know how >> to contact him. His profile says he's in Riverside, CA, which happens to be >> where I live. I don't have room or spare cash for this computer at this >> time, but I'd be happy to go look at it for anybody who's interested in it >> (assuming I find a way to contact the seller). >> >> The posting in random threads with somebody else's picture looks a bit >> hinky, but maybe it's just somebody who isn't familiar with Internet forum >> etiquette. If this seller and machine are for real, and it's really located >> in Riverside, then I can look at the machine and report what I see. >> >> > http://www.angelectronics.org/ > > Mike should be able to confirm it > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 5 17:51:40 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:51:40 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <563BEB8C.10308@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/15 3:19 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > That's the guy I've been talking to. Pissed he's stealing pics from my > site. Can someone post the URL or thread where he's using them? > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?36875-Molecular-Computers-board/page3 http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?48531-DG-Nova/page2 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 5 17:55:38 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:55:38 -0800 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/15 10:40 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > And then around 100 / 150 8" floppies to image.... > when it rains it pours.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/311470113149 Eric Smith and I have been looking for these for a long time. They are BASF floppies, though. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 5 17:57:11 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:57:11 -0800 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <563BECD7.9090800@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/15 3:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/5/15 10:40 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >> And then around 100 / 150 8" floppies to image.... >> > when it rains it pours.. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/311470113149 > > Eric Smith and I have been looking for these for a long time. > They are BASF floppies, though. > > > and about a month ago a friend had the instruction chip with the decode PLA decapped and photographed. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Nov 5 18:03:01 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:03:01 -0800 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2015-Nov-05, at 10:59 AM, John Ball wrote: > I've been trying for the past week to verify that telephony on my teletype > machine (model 33) is functioning properly but the biggest hurdle I am > running into is I have nothing to easily dial into. Everyone I know off hand > either don't have a modem anymore or theirs is a Winmodem which won't work. > There's only one phone line into the residence here and those bluetooth to > cellular POTS bridges are too lossy to make do and connect to a machine > here. There is that youtube video of the model 37 apparently connecting to a > system at the Living Computer Museum in 2013 (MikoF6KZjm0) where they dialed > into a BBS I've never seen listed anywhere but the number listed no longer > seems to work and in the description it states the service is no longer > available. What other public systems are still out there that will work this > speed or possibly better yet, is there anyone out there willing to try a > teletype-to-teletype conversation? Curious as to the setup you are attempting this with, i.e. exactly what modem are you using? One in the base of the 33 or some common external one? I'm not familiar with all the possible modem variations one might find in a 33, but AIUI the modem for the 33 at the standard 110 bps was Bell 101 standard. There's not going to be a lot to talk to out there using the old parameters. Even if someone had an auto-baud dial-in setup out there somewhere, I wouldn't anticipate it being compatible. We have a 101-standard modem (in the base of a 33) around here, but have never tried it or tried connecting it to a phone line, I'm also not familiar with it enough to know how originate/answer issues are dealt with (whether it can do both) for such 33 to 33 communication. From chrise at pobox.com Thu Nov 5 18:07:26 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 18:07:26 -0600 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151106000726.GX3568@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (11/05/2015 at 10:59AM -0800), John Ball wrote: > I've been trying for the past week to verify that telephony on my teletype > machine (model 33) is functioning properly but the biggest hurdle I am > running into is I have nothing to easily dial into. Everyone I know off hand > either don't have a modem anymore or theirs is a Winmodem which won't work. > There's only one phone line into the residence here and those bluetooth to > cellular POTS bridges are too lossy to make do and connect to a machine > here. There is that youtube video of the model 37 apparently connecting to a > system at the Living Computer Museum in 2013 (MikoF6KZjm0) where they dialed > into a BBS I've never seen listed anywhere but the number listed no longer > seems to work and in the description it states the service is no longer > available. What other public systems are still out there that will work this > speed or possibly better yet, is there anyone out there willing to try a > teletype-to-teletype conversation? If you have a "Smart Modem" (ie, stand alone unit with serial port) you can connect it to the modem in the Teletype with a battery-- like, a 9V battery-- in series with the phone line between the two. Then you use the Teletype modem to place a call to any random number and command the Smart Modem to go off-hook with "ATA". This will cause it to generate answer tones and the Teletype originate modem will "connect" and off you go. You don't need a ring generator or any ring voltage on the line since you can manually command the Smart Modem at the answer end to answer with the "ATA" command. I pretty much ignored "WinModems" in the day but I would think that if they can do answer mode, this approach would work with one of those as well. Open the terminal app on the Windows box in which this WinModem is installed and simply enter "ATA" to cause it to go off-hook in answer mode. If the 9V battery is in series with the line to the modem in the Teletype, you should be good. There might be polarity issues so reverse the battery if it doesn't work the first time. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Thu Nov 5 18:13:46 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 18:13:46 -0600 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151106001345.GY3568@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (11/05/2015 at 04:03PM -0800), Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Curious as to the setup you are attempting this with, i.e. exactly what modem are you using? > One in the base of the 33 or some common external one? > > I'm not familiar with all the possible modem variations one might find in a 33, but AIUI the modem for the 33 at the standard 110 bps was Bell 101 standard. > > There's not going to be a lot to talk to out there using the old parameters. > Even if someone had an auto-baud dial-in setup out there somewhere, I wouldn't anticipate it being compatible. > > We have a 101-standard modem (in the base of a 33) around here, but have never tried it or tried connecting it to a phone line, I'm also not familiar with it enough to know how originate/answer issues are dealt with (whether it can do both) for such 33 to 33 communication. Highest likelihood it is a Bell 103 which is AFSK at 300 baud or less. The problem you have with Teletype to Teletype with telephone modems is that both ends are likely to be originate modems-- meaning they will have the same tone pairs for transmitting and receiving and thus cannot talk to each other. One end needs to be Originate (which is the Teletype) and the other end needs to be Answer with the opposite tone pairs-- so that the transmit tones are received by the other side and vise-versa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_103_modem Some very old acoustic couplers did have a way to reverse the tone pairs but they were not very common. -- Chris Elmquist From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Nov 5 18:52:56 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:52:56 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> > On Nov 5, 2015, at 15:19, Mike Ross wrote: > > That's the guy I've been talking to. Are you near Riverside? If not, maybe I can help you out with this machine somehow. It is local to me, and I happen to have a couple weeks of free time between jobs. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 5 19:01:31 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:01:31 -0600 Subject: Vintage computing events in Germany [Was: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015] In-Reply-To: References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <20151104213443.GC22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Message-ID: <001401d1182e$acd1ae00$06750a00$@classiccmp.org> Anke wrote.... > If there is any interest, I can post announcements for those events in > advance. Anke - please feel free to post any classic computer related events on this list!! J From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Nov 5 19:05:24 2015 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 02:05:24 +0100 Subject: Vintage computing events in Germany [Was: Re: VCF-Berlin, 2015] In-Reply-To: <563B0664.9070200@btinternet.com> References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> <20151104202404.GA22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <20151104213443.GC22945@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> <563B0664.9070200@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <1446771924.1804.53.camel@agj.net> tor 2015-11-05 klockan 07:33 +0000 skrev rod: > Hi Anke (I'll use English for the benefit of rest of the list) > ???????????I would love to hear about any vintage computer shows > anywhere in Western Europe. > ???????????Please add my name to your mailing list. > ???????????Whilst a lot of us are American > ???????????Not all of us are (I'm English) and so > ???????????there are some living this side of the Atlantic. > > ?????????Rod Smallwood Neither is i. It is enough to say that with car: 3.5 h to Oslo 3.5 h Stockholm 4 K?penhamn 10 hours to Berlin West Schweden. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 5 19:06:38 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:06:38 -0600 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: <563BD4A4.7030505@gmail.com> References: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> <563BD4A4.7030505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001501d1182f$63f5aeb0$2be10c10$@classiccmp.org> Yep, I purchased a couple boxes of 8" HS floppies, I think you were going to contact me off-list. In any case... send me the current version and I'll give it a whirl. J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of shadoooo Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:14 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DG S/130 progress Hello, I'm curious to know if you managed to find some hard sectored floppies to be used with your DG machine... When you wanna have some fun to try, I could send you the current version of the tool to transfer data between DG nova and PC. Unfortunately I have no bootable media yet, but maybe an image could be obtained using SIMH, then transferred to physical floppy to try. Andrea From dave at 661.org Thu Nov 5 19:51:32 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:51:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: usb-to-parallel port solutions Message-ID: Can somone recommend a good USB-to-parallel port solution that will easily work with Linux? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrise at pobox.com Thu Nov 5 20:08:27 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:08:27 -0600 Subject: usb-to-parallel port solutions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> On Friday (11/06/2015 at 01:51AM +0000), dave at 661.org wrote: > > Can somone recommend a good USB-to-parallel port solution that will easily > work with Linux? FT245?? https://www.sparkfun.com/products/7841 Will look like a tty device to Linux(/dev/ttyUSBn) but baud rate, other settings are ignored and whatever you write to that port comes out the FT245 bit parallel and whatever you strobe into FT245 bit parallel comes out the tty driver on the top side. I have used these as a high speed channel to vintage machines such as Heath H89 and then we ran a disk emulation protocol on top of that. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Nov 5 20:39:54 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 18:39:54 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> Incidentally, I have an IBM System/23 for which I have not yet procured any software. In particular, I could use whatever utility software that's necessary to format data disks. I haven't found any online sources of disk images for this system yet. http://www.nf6x.net/2014/08/ibm-system23-datamaster/ http://www.nf6x.net/2014/09/ibm-5322-system23-datamaster-internals/ -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Nov 5 21:18:41 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:18:41 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> On 11/5/15 6:39 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Incidentally, I have an IBM System/23 for which I have not yet procured any software. In particular, I could use whatever utility software that's necessary to format data disks. I haven't found any online sources of disk images for this system yet. > > > http://www.nf6x.net/2014/08/ibm-system23-datamaster/ > http://www.nf6x.net/2014/09/ibm-5322-system23-datamaster-internals/ Cool! I haven't seen those internals for a long time. System/23 was the first product I worked on at IBM (wrote about 20% of the total ROM code for it). If anyone knows where one is for a "reasonable" amount, I'd be interested mainly for nostalgia reasons. ;-) Some interesting facts: * The IBM 5120 (follow on to the 5110) used the same "skins" as the System/23. That was because (for a number of reasons) System/23 was late and IBM wanted something in the market and the 5110 was getting a bit long in the tooth. So when IBM decided to repackage the 5110 they used the already existing skins for the System/23. * The expansion bus in the IBM PC was the same bus as the System/23. The connector was rotated 180* so that some of the less expensive cards from the PC couldn't be used in the System/23. The other reason for this was since the IBM PC was done on a "shoe string" budget, they could take the System/23 cards and only had to do some minimal re-layout of the board. TTFN - Guy From jws at jwsss.com Thu Nov 5 22:00:45 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:00:45 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <563C25ED.5090408@jwsss.com> He is tonight going thru LAX Mike is in New Zealand. I'm in Orange, Ca and can help out with things in this area too. Thanks Jim On 11/5/2015 4:52 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 15:19, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> That's the guy I've been talking to. > Are you near Riverside? If not, maybe I can help you out with this machine somehow. It is local to me, and I happen to have a couple weeks of free time between jobs. > > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Nov 5 22:55:45 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:55:45 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <563C25ED.5090408@jwsss.com> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <563C25ED.5090408@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 5, 2015, at 20:00 , jwsmobile wrote: > > He is tonight going thru LAX Mike is in New Zealand. He lives in NZ, or is just traveling there? I can't even guess how much it would cost to ship a System/23 from California to NZ! I think I found Mike's Youtube videos of one of his other System/23. It even has blinkenlights! Dang it, now I'm trying to figure out where I'd hypothetically stick a System/23 in my little house. Probably in the breakfast nook, assuming it would even fit through the front door. I doubt it could make the turns into my computer room. If I call it a "desk" and then put more computers on top of it, then does it really occupy any space? :) I managed to shove a VAX-11/730 through the front door: http://www.nf6x.net/2014/05/nothing-sucks-power-like-a-vax/ But I don't think a System/32 would fit unless it can be broken down into pieces no wider than a 19" rack. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From mbbrutman at brutman.com Thu Nov 5 18:27:08 2015 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:27:08 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <563BEB8C.10308@bitsavers.org> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <563BEB8C.10308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The posts look like spam to me. If you'd like they can be deleted and I'll warn the user about using pictures without permission. On 11/5/15 3:19 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > That's the guy I've been talking to. Pissed he's stealing pics from my > site. Can someone post the URL or thread where he's using them? > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?36875-Molecular-Computers-board/page3 http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?48531-DG-Nova/page2 From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Thu Nov 5 23:06:40 2015 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 06:06:40 +0100 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <563C3560.4070107@bluewin.ch> > Eric Smith and I have been looking for these for a long time. > They are BASF floppies, though. > As are mine... ( some 3M and CDC disk also part of the haul ) Does that mean they will need baking ? Jos From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 00:10:00 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 22:10:00 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/05 top cover In-Reply-To: References: <563ADF89.6060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <563C4438.5050404@gmail.com> On 11/5/15 2:19 AM, Joseph Lang wrote: > I've got one. Just pay shipping and it's yours. I don't expect to ever get the 11/05 to go with it ;-) > > Joe Thanks! I've sent an offlist reply... - Josh > >> On Nov 4, 2015, at 11:48 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> Subject line says it all -- I'm looking for the top/side cover for the "slim" PDP-11/05. Probably not infeasible to build one, but I figured I'd ask around first. >> >> Got lucky on a cheap 8KW core plane (H214) on eBay to replace the damaged one the /05 came with (which we had a discussion about last year), and everything seems to be working fine other than a completely dead Boxer fan (a replacement is on the way), I'd like to find the top cover to help with air flow/cooling. And so I can put things on top of it :). >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 00:35:13 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:35:13 -0600 Subject: usb-to-parallel port solutions In-Reply-To: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: @Chris For printing use, I've purchased & used several of the ultra-cheap USB to Parallel cable devices, readily available on eBay for about $2.00-$3.00 each. Plugs & play, no troubles at all on recent Linux (Xubuntu) and Windows. Is that helpful? On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:08 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Friday (11/06/2015 at 01:51AM +0000), dave at 661.org wrote: > > > > Can somone recommend a good USB-to-parallel port solution that will > easily > > work with Linux? > > FT245?? > > https://www.sparkfun.com/products/7841 > > Will look like a tty device to Linux(/dev/ttyUSBn) but baud rate, other > settings are ignored and whatever you write to that port comes out the > FT245 bit parallel and whatever you strobe into FT245 bit parallel comes > out the tty driver on the top side. > > I have used these as a high speed channel to vintage machines such as > Heath H89 and then we ran a disk emulation protocol on top of that. > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From dave at 661.org Fri Nov 6 01:35:41 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 07:35:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: usb-to-parallel port solutions In-Reply-To: References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Nov 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:08 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >> On Friday (11/06/2015 at 01:51AM +0000), dave at 661.org wrote: >>> >>> Can somone recommend a good USB-to-parallel port solution that will >> easily >>> work with Linux? >> >> FT245?? >> >> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/7841 >> >> Will look like a tty device to Linux(/dev/ttyUSBn) but baud rate, other >> settings are ignored and whatever you write to that port comes out the >> FT245 bit parallel and whatever you strobe into FT245 bit parallel comes >> out the tty driver on the top side. >> >> I have used these as a high speed channel to vintage machines such as >> Heath H89 and then we ran a disk emulation protocol on top of that. > @Chris > > For printing use, I've purchased & used several of the ultra-cheap USB to > Parallel cable devices, readily available on eBay for about $2.00-$3.00 > each. > > Plugs & play, no troubles at all on recent Linux (Xubuntu) and Windows. > > Is that helpful? I intend to use it to drive the Spare Time Gizmos "Panda PDP-10 Display". -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Nov 6 01:41:38 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 07:41:38 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Location Check Message-ID: <563C59B2.9000504@btinternet.com> Hi Guys If you had one of the first batch of panels back in the Summer. Please can you confirm it for my records. Regards Rod From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Nov 6 02:34:36 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:34:36 -0800 Subject: Omen site and FTP server In-Reply-To: References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <013401d1186d$f9418e60$ebc4ab20$@net> It looks like the OMEN.COM site is up (although as a for sale sign by Chuck's widow) and the FTP server is up and running. However, anonymous access seems to be denied. Is this just a problem on my end or can anyone mirror it? -Ali From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 6 02:51:16 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:51:16 +0100 (CET) Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: <20151106000726.GX3568@n0jcf.net> References: <20151106000726.GX3568@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Nov 2015, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (11/05/2015 at 10:59AM -0800), John Ball wrote: >> I've been trying for the past week to verify that telephony on my teletype >> machine (model 33) is functioning properly but the biggest hurdle I am >> running into is I have nothing to easily dial into. Everyone I know off hand >> either don't have a modem anymore or theirs is a Winmodem which won't work. >> There's only one phone line into the residence here and those bluetooth to [...] >> speed or possibly better yet, is there anyone out there willing to try a >> teletype-to-teletype conversation? > If you have a "Smart Modem" (ie, stand alone unit with serial port) > you can connect it to the modem in the Teletype with a battery-- like, > a 9V battery-- in series with the phone line between the two. Then you > use the Teletype modem to place a call to any random number and command > the Smart Modem to go off-hook with "ATA". This will cause it to > generate answer tones and the Teletype originate modem will "connect" > and off you go. Why don't you suggest the easiest and obvious: use a small analog PBX. There are _plenty_ of them floating around, and most can be had for free; you could for example even use your FritzBox Phone (a DSL WiFi Router with analog phone ports). Then you can do internal calls from one port to any other port (and also use your old rotary dial phone with VoIP if you like). Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 6 02:56:39 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:56:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <563C3560.4070107@bluewin.ch> References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563C3560.4070107@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Nov 2015, Jos Dreesen wrote: >> Eric Smith and I have been looking for these for a long time. >> They are BASF floppies, though. > > As are mine... ( some 3M and CDC disk also part of the haul ) > Does that mean they will need baking ? Never had any problems with 8" BASF floppies (and 5?" BTW). Christian From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 6 03:05:20 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:05:20 -0800 Subject: Omen site and FTP server In-Reply-To: <013401d1186d$f9418e60$ebc4ab20$@net> References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> <013401d1186d$f9418e60$ebc4ab20$@net> Message-ID: <563C6D50.3040401@jwsss.com> On 11/6/2015 12:34 AM, Ali wrote: > It looks like the OMEN.COM site is up (although as a for sale sign by > Chuck's widow) and the FTP server is up and running. However, anonymous > access seems to be denied. Is this just a problem on my end or can anyone > mirror it? > > -Ali > > Looks like someone is on, maybe 6 people with open but not connected sessions, or perhaps friends of his downloading stuff. I got timeouts when I posted after the note on this list on both the FTP and the web site, so it seems like someone must have put it back up. This is a Filezilla session log. Response: 220---------- Welcome to Pure-FTPd [privsep] [TLS] ---------- Response: 220-You are user number 7 of 500 allowed. Response: 220-Local time is now 02:02. Server port: 21. Response: 220-This is a private system - No anonymous login Response: 220 You will be disconnected after 15 minutes of inactivity. Command: USER anonymous Response: 331 User anonymous OK. Password required Command: PASS ************** Response: 530 Login authentication failed Thanks jim From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 6 03:09:46 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:09:46 -0800 Subject: Omen site and FTP server In-Reply-To: <013401d1186d$f9418e60$ebc4ab20$@net> References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> <013401d1186d$f9418e60$ebc4ab20$@net> Message-ID: <563C6E5A.9020305@jwsss.com> On 11/6/2015 12:34 AM, Ali wrote: > It looks like the OMEN.COM site is up (although as a for sale sign by > Chuck's widow) and the FTP server is up and running. However, anonymous > access seems to be denied. Is this just a problem on my end or can anyone > mirror it? > > -Ali > > Perhaps someone who knew Chuck can contact Betty and explain that the FTP server has data, particularly in my case the Tektronix software he had that is on that server, and is not downloadable thru the Apache server. I will do so in a while if noone who knew him better says something. In sympathy with her, I have a couple of friends who's husbands passed that took 6 to 9 months before they could talk w/o a major episode, so someone with some tact might want to do the contacting. I have a lot of sympathy in just calling up and saying, "gee I'd like this or that". That is what it boils down to, but hopefully if she has some comments be sympathetic. Thanks for pinging back, Ali. thanks Jim From radiotest at juno.com Fri Nov 6 07:11:14 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 08:11:14 -0500 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20151105152827.03e6d390@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151105221909.0405ca78@juno.com> At 04:12 PM 11/5/2015, Tony Duell wrote: >... it's things like the power supplies, ringing generator, etc that are the major part of the work. Those are actually pretty simple for someone with sufficient analog experience. The reasons why I designed and built my own system are: 1) I am semi-retired and have more time than money. 2) I had everything I needed in-house except for the call-progress generator IC (which was easily obtained). 3) I enjoy designing and building equipment, though this is my first dedicated processor build in more than 20 years. >The ringing voltage in particular is a pain, it's AC, and at a fairly low frequency (16.67Hz to 25Hz depending on country). In the US the Bell standard is a 90 VAC sine wave at 20 HZ with a cadence of 2 seconds on and 4 seconds off. I work only with US equipment so I only have to meet Bell standards. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 6 07:52:38 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 07:52:38 -0600 Subject: Omen site and FTP server In-Reply-To: <563C6E5A.9020305@jwsss.com> References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> <013401d1186d$f9418e60$ebc4ab20$@net> <563C6E5A.9020305@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <000a01d1189a$66c14f30$3443ed90$@classiccmp.org> Jim; I'd be happy to host the entire site on the classiccmp, both website and ftp site - gratis. I was going to contact them and also discuss sale - depending on price I'd be willing to pick it up. In any case, please contact me off-list to arrange a game plan. J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 3:10 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Omen site and FTP server On 11/6/2015 12:34 AM, Ali wrote: > It looks like the OMEN.COM site is up (although as a for sale sign by > Chuck's widow) and the FTP server is up and running. However, > anonymous access seems to be denied. Is this just a problem on my end > or can anyone mirror it? > > -Ali > > Perhaps someone who knew Chuck can contact Betty and explain that the FTP server has data, particularly in my case the Tektronix software he had that is on that server, and is not downloadable thru the Apache server. I will do so in a while if noone who knew him better says something. In sympathy with her, I have a couple of friends who's husbands passed that took 6 to 9 months before they could talk w/o a major episode, so someone with some tact might want to do the contacting. I have a lot of sympathy in just calling up and saying, "gee I'd like this or that". That is what it boils down to, but hopefully if she has some comments be sympathetic. Thanks for pinging back, Ali. thanks Jim From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Nov 6 08:04:00 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 06:04:00 -0800 Subject: Omen site and FTP server In-Reply-To: <563C6E5A.9020305@jwsss.com> References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> <013401d1186d$f9418e60$ebc4ab20$@net> <563C6E5A.9020305@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <013901d1189b$fd2912e0$f77b38a0$@net> > Perhaps someone who knew Chuck can contact Betty and explain that the > FTP server has data, particularly in my case the Tektronix software he > had that is on that server, and is not downloadable thru the Apache > server. > > I will do so in a while if noone who knew him better says something. Jim, I actually did get in touch with the widow and heard back from her. Unfortunately, for all intents and purposes the data is gone. While there may be backups and the possibility of retrieval from the HW she does not know how. In fact someone else setup the pointer page for her on Go Daddy. There is a slim chance that the person helping her may be able to do a recovery but we won't know for about a week or so. -Ali From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 6 08:10:08 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 08:10:08 -0600 Subject: Omen site and FTP server In-Reply-To: <013901d1189b$fd2912e0$f77b38a0$@net> References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> <013401d1186d$f9418e60$ebc4ab20$@net> <563C6E5A.9020305@jwsss.com> <013901d1189b$fd2912e0$f77b38a0$@net> Message-ID: <000e01d1189c$d7d43af0$877cb0d0$@classiccmp.org> Because it may be timesensitive, I contacted her and offered to pay for data recovery of the drive, and other items. Will post whatever I hear. J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ali Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:04 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Omen site and FTP server > Perhaps someone who knew Chuck can contact Betty and explain that the > FTP server has data, particularly in my case the Tektronix software he > had that is on that server, and is not downloadable thru the Apache > server. > > I will do so in a while if noone who knew him better says something. Jim, I actually did get in touch with the widow and heard back from her. Unfortunately, for all intents and purposes the data is gone. While there may be backups and the possibility of retrieval from the HW she does not know how. In fact someone else setup the pointer page for her on Go Daddy. There is a slim chance that the person helping her may be able to do a recovery but we won't know for about a week or so. -Ali From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 6 09:04:54 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 07:04:54 -0800 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <563C3560.4070107@bluewin.ch> References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563C3560.4070107@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <563CC196.1040600@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/15 9:06 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > As are mine... ( some 3M and CDC disk also part of the haul ) > Does that mean they will need baking ? > Yes. I was going to try what I use on one, white board cleaner. Chuck has not had good luck with BASF recovery. From als at thangorodrim.ch Fri Nov 6 09:14:34 2015 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 16:14:34 +0100 Subject: ID-ing a PC backup format In-Reply-To: <563AB277.8040406@sydex.com> References: <563AB277.8040406@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151106151434.GB10328@thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 05:35:51PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a set of mystery 5.25" DD floppies that appear to be a > backup of some sort. 10 x 512 byte sectors per track, 40 cylinders, > double-sided. Normal sector IDs (Side 0: 0/ Side 1: 1), 1-10. > > No, it's not FASTBACK nor does it appear to be Central Point's PC > Backup. The start of the first sector of the first floppy looks > like this: > > 000000 50 43 42 41 43 4B 55 50-2E 01 00 50 43 42 00 06 > 000010 04 00 69 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > 000020 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > 000030 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 01 01 01 01 > 000040 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01-01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 > 000050 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01-01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 > 000060 01 01 01 01 01 5A 5A 5A-5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A > 000070 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A-5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A > 000080 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 5A-5A 5A 5A 5A 5A 52 13 C5 > 000090 9A 01 00 1E 00 01 00 54-55 52 42 4F 43 5C 00 00 > > Note that it starts off with 'PCBACKUP'. This doesn't seem to match > anything in my library. Anyone got any ideas. > > Oh yeah, this would be circa 1989 or so. That sounds like the pcbackup program from the PC Tools suite from Central Point. http://www.oldskool.org/guides/dosbackupshootout includes at the bottom a link to PC Tols 6: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/dosbackupshootout/Central%20Point%20PC%20Tools.rar Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 09:24:43 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 10:24:43 -0500 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Nov-05, at 10:59 AM, John Ball wrote: >> I've been trying for the past week to verify that telephony on my teletype >> machine (model 33) is functioning properly but the biggest hurdle I am >> running into is I have nothing to easily dial into... > > I'm not familiar with all the possible modem variations one might find in a 33, but AIUI the modem for the 33 at the standard 110 bps was Bell 101 standard. When I got an ASR33 with a built-in dataset (from the Dayton Hamfest, in the 80s), I had much the same quandry. At the time, my best solution was to call up a local CompuServe number. I got a login prompt and called it good. That said, I'd be a little surprised if that trick still worked. -ethan From als at thangorodrim.ch Fri Nov 6 09:27:10 2015 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 16:27:10 +0100 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563C3560.4070107@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20151106152710.GC10328@thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Nov 06, 2015 at 09:56:39AM +0100, Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 6 Nov 2015, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >>Eric Smith and I have been looking for these for a long time. > >>They are BASF floppies, though. > > > >As are mine... ( some 3M and CDC disk also part of the haul ) > >Does that mean they will need baking ? > > Never had any problems with 8" BASF floppies (and 5?" BTW). Can't speak for the 8", had no problems with 5?" (but used them very little), but the BASF 3?" were horrible. It got to the point where we jokingly expanded the company name BASF to "Byte Abweisende Schutz- Folie" (byte rejecting protective film). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Nov 6 10:10:22 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 11:10:22 -0500 Subject: usb-to-parallel port solutions In-Reply-To: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <563CD0EE.7010307@comcast.net> On 11/5/2015 9:08 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Friday (11/06/2015 at 01:51AM +0000), dave at 661.org wrote: >> Can somone recommend a good USB-to-parallel port solution that will easily >> work with Linux? > FT245?? > > https://www.sparkfun.com/products/7841 > > Will look like a tty device to Linux(/dev/ttyUSBn) but baud rate, other > settings are ignored and whatever you write to that port comes out the > FT245 bit parallel and whatever you strobe into FT245 bit parallel comes > out the tty driver on the top side. > > I have used these as a high speed channel to vintage machines such as > Heath H89 and then we ran a disk emulation protocol on top of that. > > Chris I'm interested in this, but on the parallel side is it 5V logic? How do you connect to the pads? Does USB provide all the necessary power? Doug From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 6 10:13:39 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 08:13:39 -0800 Subject: Omen site and FTP server In-Reply-To: <000e01d1189c$d7d43af0$877cb0d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> <013401d1186d$f9418e60$ebc4ab20$@net> <563C6E5A.9020305@jwsss.com> <013901d1189b$fd2912e0$f77b38a0$@net> <000e01d1189c$d7d43af0$877cb0d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <563CD1B3.3080302@jwsss.com> On 11/6/2015 6:10 AM, Jay West wrote: > Because it may be timesensitive, I contacted her and offered to pay for data > recovery of the drive, and other items. Will post whatever I hear. > > J Thanks, Jay. Really appreciate your help. Thanks JIm > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ali > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:04 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Omen site and FTP server > >> Perhaps someone who knew Chuck can contact Betty and explain that the >> FTP server has data, particularly in my case the Tektronix software he >> had that is on that server, and is not downloadable thru the Apache >> server. >> >> I will do so in a while if noone who knew him better says something. > > Jim, > > I actually did get in touch with the widow and heard back from her. > Unfortunately, for all intents and purposes the data is gone. While there > may be backups and the possibility of retrieval from the HW she does not > know how. In fact someone else setup the pointer page for her on Go Daddy. > > There is a slim chance that the person helping her may be able to do a > recovery but we won't know for about a week or so. > > -Ali > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 6 10:39:52 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 10:39:52 -0600 Subject: Omen site and FTP server In-Reply-To: <563CD1B3.3080302@jwsss.com> References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> <013401d1186d$f9418e60$ebc4ab20$@net> <563C6E5A.9020305@jwsss.com> <013901d1189b$fd2912e0$f77b38a0$@net> <000e01d1189c$d7d43af0$877cb0d0$@classiccmp.org> <563CD1B3.3080302@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <000201d118b1$c3e9c310$4bbd4930$@classiccmp.org> Jim wrote (re: Omen) ------ Thanks, Jay. Really appreciate your help. Thanks Jim ----- I don't want to publicly post too much that was in private email, but will try to provide some general info and there's not much more I can say: There are both (mostly) hardware and (some) password issues as to recovery of the public-facing data. It does not look promising but time will tell. The crux of the matter seems to be that information which should not be made public is intermingled on the same system, so they are proceeding carefully and with trusted parties which is very understandable. J From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 6 11:02:16 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:02:16 -0800 Subject: ID-ing a PC backup format In-Reply-To: <20151106151434.GB10328@thangorodrim.de> References: <563AB277.8040406@sydex.com> <20151106151434.GB10328@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <563CDD18.3070405@sydex.com> On 11/06/2015 07:14 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 05:35:51PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That sounds like the pcbackup program from the PC Tools suite from > Central Point. Thanks, but I've been there already. Unless this is a very early version (pre PCTools 4), it's nothing internally like Fastback or PCTools backup. For one thing, both formats include in the first sector, the name of the program and other detail of what created it. Not so with this one. I suppose it's possible that there is a very very early version of PC Backup that created it, but I haven't found it. I was hoping that someone would recognize the formst. I'm surprised that the oldskool group didn't evaluate Paul Mace's backup program from the Mace utilities. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 6 17:00:28 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 18:00:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: RSX-11M-PLUS SYSGEN printouts Message-ID: <20151106230028.C813918C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> An 11/84 I bought came with a couple of RSX-11M-PLUS V4.3 SYSGEN printouts; I don't intend to run RSX on the machine, so is there any use to this printout, or should I recycle it? If someone has a use for it, I'd be happy to send it to them. Noel From chrise at pobox.com Fri Nov 6 17:11:23 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 17:11:23 -0600 Subject: usb-to-parallel port solutions In-Reply-To: <563CD0EE.7010307@comcast.net> References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> <563CD0EE.7010307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20151106231123.GU29063@n0jcf.net> On Friday (11/06/2015 at 11:10AM -0500), Douglas Taylor wrote: > On 11/5/2015 9:08 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >On Friday (11/06/2015 at 01:51AM +0000), dave at 661.org wrote: > >>Can somone recommend a good USB-to-parallel port solution that will easily > >>work with Linux? > >FT245?? > > > >https://www.sparkfun.com/products/7841 > > > >Will look like a tty device to Linux(/dev/ttyUSBn) but baud rate, other > >settings are ignored and whatever you write to that port comes out the > >FT245 bit parallel and whatever you strobe into FT245 bit parallel comes > >out the tty driver on the top side. > > > >I have used these as a high speed channel to vintage machines such as > >Heath H89 and then we ran a disk emulation protocol on top of that. > > > >Chris > > I'm interested in this, but on the parallel side is it 5V logic? How do you > connect to the pads? Does USB provide all the necessary power? On my original prototype, I soldered .1" headers into the pads or holes of the Sparkfun board and then then those go through the holes in .1" "Vector Board". I'm pretty much old school with prototyping-- point to point wiring, soldering each connection-- so there is no wire-wrap or PCB involved. Refer to the schematic also there on the Sparkfun page but you can choose whether the FT245 is powered from the USB side or from the "other" side. If powered from the other side, then you can decide whether the I/O is 5V or 3.3V. Actually, you can also decide this even if powered from the USB side as the device has an internal 3.3V regulator so will supply 3.3V from the 5V USB power. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From other at oryx.us Fri Nov 6 18:37:47 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 18:37:47 -0600 Subject: WTB: Unix/Solaris Adobe FrameMaker 8 In-Reply-To: <56386CBE.5030409@oryx.us> References: <56386CBE.5030409@oryx.us> Message-ID: <563D47DB.5050504@oryx.us> Nothing this year, not even an odd comment. :( Thanks for looking anyway. I'll try again fall 2016. Jerry On 11/ 3/15 02:13 AM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > I am looking to purchase/acquire a copy of Adobe FrameMaker 8 for Unix/Solaris. > > Straight from Adobe, FrameMaker had always been a pretty pricy item, but I had > always managed to acquire a legal copy, sometimes years old and after the fact > through eBay, etc. > > And through that method, I own legal copies+media of 5.x, 6.x and 7.x for Unix > and Mac. > > I had hoped to purchase a copy of version 8 via a similar method, but several > years have passed by, and I have never seen a copy of version 8 for sale. > > After version 8, FrameMaker was significantly changed and released for > dos/windows only. I believe that the current version is 11.x or above. > > Also, in case it isn't obvious, this is for myself for home use only. > > Jerry From cube1 at charter.net Fri Nov 6 19:10:34 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 19:10:34 -0600 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <563C25ED.5090408@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <563D4F8A.9030803@charter.net> On 11/5/2015 10:55 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 20:00 , jwsmobile wrote: >> >> He is tonight going thru LAX Mike is in New Zealand. > > He lives in NZ, or is just traveling there? I can't even guess how much it would cost to ship a System/23 from California to NZ! > > I think I found Mike's Youtube videos of one of his other System/23. It even has blinkenlights! Dang it, now I'm trying to figure out where I'd hypothetically stick a System/23 in my little house. Probably in the breakfast nook, assuming it would even fit through the front door. I doubt it could make the turns into my computer room. If I call it a "desk" and then put more computers on top of it, then does it really occupy any space? :) > > I managed to shove a VAX-11/730 through the front door: > > http://www.nf6x.net/2014/05/nothing-sucks-power-like-a-vax/ > > But I don't think a System/32 would fit unless it can be broken down into pieces no wider than a 19" rack. > Or tipped on end such that it would fit, similar to moving a sofa. JRJ From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 6 19:39:09 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 02:39:09 +0100 Subject: RSX-11M-PLUS SYSGEN printouts In-Reply-To: <20151106230028.C813918C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151106230028.C813918C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <563D563D.6040108@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-07 00:00, Noel Chiappa wrote: > An 11/84 I bought came with a couple of RSX-11M-PLUS V4.3 SYSGEN printouts; I > don't intend to run RSX on the machine, so is there any use to this printout, > or should I recycle it? If someone has a use for it, I'd be happy to send it > to them. I'd seriously doubt there is any interest in such printouts. They will essentially tell you how the system was generated - which options, devices, and so on... How interesting is that? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Nov 6 20:01:16 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 18:01:16 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <563D4F8A.9030803@charter.net> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <563C25ED.5090408@jwsss.com> <563D4F8A.9030803@charter.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 6, 2015, at 17:10, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > Or tipped on end such that it would fit, similar to moving a sofa. Please don't help... I bought a small CNC mill today, and my wallet is empty. :-) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Nov 7 02:28:04 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 08:28:04 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Update Message-ID: <563DB614.8030209@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Things are proceeding well. The girls are deciding the best way to do the matte finish layer I'm confirming exactly where the hole for the lock should be to be so the panel can be pre-drilled. One kind list member is shipping me an old damaged panel in from the US which will help with both of the above. Rod From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 7 07:50:18 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 08:50:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45-55 CPU fan assemblies Message-ID: <20151107135018.CCABC18C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, all: I recently bought a PDP-11/45 [well, a /55, to be technical; the /45, /50 and /55 are completely identical except for i) the memory options installed at purchase, and ii) the printing on the front console :-], but alas, when I looked closely, it is missing both upper and lower CPU fan assemblies. (No doubt, removed to allow cannabilization of the fans, to keep another machine running.) (For those who aren't familiar, these are long brackets to which a number of the usual square fans are bolted; one is placed above, and one below, the cards in the main pull-out rack of the CPU. The one on top is hinged along the long edge, so it can be rolled back out out of the way, for running cables to boards.) So, does anyone i) have a spare set they don't want (I know, I know, I know, p < .00001, but maybe a miracle will happen); ii) have a set they can lend me so that I can get the sheet-metal part copied (I might get a spare or two made at the same time, depending on price, so we have some on hand); iii) failing all of the above, be willing to take lots of pictures, and some measurements, of a set, to aid in making reproductions. Thanks (hopefully :-)! Noel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 7 07:57:14 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 13:57:14 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/45-55 CPU fan assemblies In-Reply-To: <20151107135018.CCABC18C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151107135018.CCABC18C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > Hi, all: I recently bought a PDP-11/45 [well, a /55, to be technical; the /45, > /50 and /55 are completely identical except for i) the memory options > installed at purchase, and ii) the printing on the front console :-], but > alas, when I looked closely, it is missing both upper and lower CPU fan > assemblies. (No doubt, removed to allow cannabilization of the fans, to keep > another machine running.) Argh! IIRC that 21" mounting box (and I assume therefore the fan assemblies) was used on other machines like the 11/40 (some versions), the 11/70, etc. I am not suggesting you raid one of those for parts, but it might be something else to look at. > iii) failing > all of the above, be willing to take lots of pictures, and some measurements, > of a set, to aid in making reproductions. I do have an 11/45 here with the original fan trays. The top one is easy to get at and measure, but IIRC the bottom one is a right pain, involving removing all the boards and dismantling the very fragile card guides. I can take pictures of the outside (I think, although that will be hard due to the limited distance in which to work) but I really would rather not take it apart unless there is no alternative. By Murphy's law, the top one is the simpler one. It is a flat bit of metal with grilles punched in it over 5 (IIRC) fans. What we call a 'piano hinge' down the RHS, 2 Dzus fasteners (same type as for the CPU side paneL) near the left corners. Fans mount on the underside, there is another punched grille panel over the bottom of all the fans secured by 4 screws to each fan. It is one panel, not one per fan. The bottom tray is more complicated, it is a bent metal trough-like thing. It fixes to the bottom of the CPU box, the fans are inside it. -tony From cube1 at charter.net Sat Nov 7 08:35:21 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 08:35:21 -0600 Subject: RK07 Manual Dual Port? Message-ID: <563E0C29.8010604@charter.net> After seeing an M7706 on eBay (and realizing I already have a spare), but no dual-port card (M7730), and reading instructions in the maintenance manual regarding placement of a single M7706 drive interface card in either slot, depending upon whether A or B is selected I began to wonder... Is there any reason one cannot do a manual dual port on an RK07 by having both M7706 slots populated, but then only ever selecting A or B using the buttons on the RK07? Has anyone ever done that? The existence of two separate wire list pages in the schematic, and a quick look at the M7706 diagram output signals suggests that this would *not* work - that the output lines of the two M7706 cards are wired together on a single-port drive and driven by ordinary TTL, and that a dual-port drive had different wiring on the backplane, even though the card cages are the same and the backplane itself is the same. JRJ From sales at elecplus.com Sat Nov 7 09:20:43 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:20:43 -0600 Subject: scrounging at recyclers Message-ID: <007701d1196f$ded21830$9c764890$@com> Often I come across various obsolete boards that SEEM to be what you guys want, but I am never really sure. This week I passed up a large (at least 24" per side) HP server mainboard from the 70s, and some Wang boards from the same period. Since I no longer have the warehouse, I have no way to keep them until somebody says they want it. My question is, what should I bring home? I do not have email access while I am scrounging, so I can't post to this list. What besides old DEC boards are wanted? Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 7 09:17:31 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 15:17:31 +0000 Subject: RK07 Manual Dual Port? In-Reply-To: <563E0C29.8010604@charter.net> References: <563E0C29.8010604@charter.net> Message-ID: [2 'Interface and Timing M7706 cards in an RK07] > The existence of two separate wire list pages in the schematic, and a > quick look at the M7706 diagram output signals suggests that this would > *not* work - that the output lines of the two M7706 cards are wired > together on a single-port drive and driven by ordinary TTL, and that a > dual-port drive had different wiring on the backplane, even though the > card cages are the same and the backplane itself is the same. I am pretty sure you're rignt, this won't work and may damage the M7706 boards due to TTL outputs being linked together. A quick look at the printset shows that the multiplexers to select between the 2 M7706 boards in a dual ported drive are on the dual port logic PCB, -tony From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Nov 7 09:24:28 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 07:24:28 -0800 Subject: Omen site and FTP server In-Reply-To: <000201d118b1$c3e9c310$4bbd4930$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151106020827.GR29063@n0jcf.net> <013401d1186d$f9418e60$ebc4ab20$@net> <563C6E5A.9020305@jwsss.com> <013901d1189b$fd2912e0$f77b38a0$@net> <000e01d1189c$d7d43af0$877cb0d0$@classiccmp.org> <563CD1B3.3080302@jwsss.com> <000201d118b1$c3e9c310$4bbd4930$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <015901d11970$6564c730$302e5590$@net> > The crux of the matter seems to be that information which should not be > made public is intermingled on the same system, so they are proceeding > carefully and with trusted parties which is very understandable. Jay, Thanks for stepping up and helping with this. When I saw the widow was selling the domain name I was hopeful that she would be tech savvy and had been involved in the business but apparently she is not. Hopefully, we will able to retrieve the data from the HW. -Ali From cube1 at charter.net Sat Nov 7 09:35:01 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:35:01 -0600 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <563C25ED.5090408@jwsss.com> <563D4F8A.9030803@charter.net> Message-ID: <563E1A25.50906@charter.net> On 11/6/2015 8:01 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> On Nov 6, 2015, at 17:10, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >> Or tipped on end such that it would fit, similar to moving a sofa. > > Please don't help... I bought a small CNC mill today, and my wallet is empty. :-) > I get it - just like my basement is full.... :) From bqt at softjar.se Sat Nov 7 10:02:14 2015 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:02:14 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS Message-ID: <563E2086.6020107@softjar.se> Well, about two weeks since my last announcement, but I figured I should do another one. I've cut a new release of TCP/IP for RSX, and I encourage everyone to update to this latest release. A short list of changes since my last release: Documentation: . I've worked some on the documentation, and filled out some parts that were previously TBD. TCP: . Performance improvements. In general, I've improved file transfer performance by about 20% by tuning when TCP ACK messages as well as window updates are sent. On links where packets are dropped from time to time, the performance improvements can be significantly higher. . Bugfix. Retry counter were incorrectly reset under some circumstances. . Bugfix. TCP did not resend an ACK if the same data was received twice. . Bugfix. TCP sockets could erronously be left in a closed state with no task. However, looking at the socket, it looked like a task was associated. FTP: . Size calculation for stream type files in RSX mode was done incorrectly. Applications: . I've included a precompiled version of PCL.TSK As usual, the distribution is available from: ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk The documentation is also available through ftp on Mim, or also at http://mim.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ball.of.john at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 10:27:20 2015 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 08:27:20 -0800 Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Curious as to the setup you are attempting this with, i.e. exactly what modem are you >using? >One in the base of the 33 or some common external one? > >I'm not familiar with all the possible modem variations one might find in a 33, but >AIUI the modem for the 33 at the standard 110 bps was Bell 101 standard. > >There's not going to be a lot to talk to out there using the old parameters. >Even if someone had an auto-baud dial-in setup out there somewhere, I wouldn't >anticipate it being compatible. > >We have a 101-standard modem (in the base of a 33) around here, but have never tried it >or tried connecting it to a phone line, I'm also not familiar with it enough to know >how originate/answer issues are dealt with (whether it can do both) for such 33 to 33 >communication. Okay, this is where things get cool. For you folks who have issues with javascript heavy pages, I don't recommend clicking the following image links. The teletype is connected to one of the original 300 baud Hayes Smartmodems I had in a box doing nothing which solves a lot of problems with trying to make an older dataset work with the much more plentiful Smartmodems and their later clones by just about everyone. (which as a few have mentioned have no issue working at 110 but with a catch) That I've found so far you can dial pretty much any other hardware modem that isn't relying on a DSP or sound CODEC (so late ISA and all PCI cards don't work) and it will work by pure modulation. You just need to make sure the COM port on the machine is set for (or will automatically detect and switch to) 110 or else it assumes 300 and nothing works. The quirk I added however is that I took the guts of the teletype's UCC6 and a TWX controller and built a custom CCU that gives me feedback on the modem status and lets me control and dial from the front panel. The modem itself now hides in the stand and I don't need to type in commands to do anything. It looks as if it's a factory option. I even added a feature where in Automatic Answer mode the motor is relay controlled by the modem itself. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/CGS_1118 .jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/IMG_1390 .jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/teletype /CGS_1131.jpg I have a massive writeup and a video that are about ready to go live but I need a set of videos demonstrating the setup connecting to a remote user, connecting to a remote machine and a remote user dialing into the teletype. That's where I was having my troubles. >Why don't you suggest the easiest and obvious: use a small analog PBX. >There are _plenty_ of them floating around, and most can be had for free; >you could for example even use your FritzBox Phone (a DSL WiFi Router with >analog phone ports). Then you can do internal calls from one port to any ?other port (and also use your old rotary dial phone with VoIP if you >like). People have been nagging me for the last year to get a Panasonic 308. I've yet to come across one so far that wasn't weirdly priced, plus my parents aren't interested in a PBX being installed in their house. -John From ball.of.john at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 10:27:22 2015 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 08:27:22 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I think I found Mike's Youtube videos of one of his other System/23. It even has >blinkenlights! Dang it, now I'm trying to figure out where I'd hypothetically stick a >System/23 in my little house. Probably in the breakfast nook, assuming it would even >fit through the front door. I doubt it could make the turns into my computer room. If I >call it a "desk" and then put more computers on top of it, then does it really occupy >any space? :) I remember trying to figure out logistics on that System/32 that was on ebay out east for like $50 on ebay a few years ago. Don't remember if it sold or not butabsolutely nothing I could come up with made transporting it out west affordable. -John From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 10:41:46 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 11:41:46 -0500 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <563C25ED.5090408@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > But I don't think a System/32 would fit unless it can be broken down into pieces no wider than a 19" rack. I do not think you can break them down that far, however, IBM has always been pretty careful to design cabinets that somehow can fit through a standard office door. Sometimes it is a very tight squeeze. -- Will From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Nov 7 10:54:51 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 11:54:51 -0500 Subject: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? Message-ID: <7fce6.53c836e0.436f86db@aol.com> Yes they are doing some good things! check out the video on the Librascope! Ed# In a message dated 10/20/2015 3:39:37 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, chrise at pobox.com writes: On Tuesday (10/20/2015 at 04:57PM -0500), Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 10/20/2015 1:35 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > > I found a channel that's about a Month old, but no real information as to who they are. > > > > > > Computer History Archives > > Educational Vintage Computer Films > > View on www.youtube.com > > > > https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOyJD0RHtF_77_oAf5tT1nQ > > > > Nice narration... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KuoZ6cades I have two Vicalloy tapes from a UNIVAC I. Anybody have a UNISERVO drive we could read them on? ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Nov 7 11:00:16 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:00:16 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <563C25ED.5090408@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 7, 2015, at 08:41 , William Donzelli wrote: > >> But I don't think a System/32 would fit unless it can be broken down into pieces no wider than a 19" rack. > > I do not think you can break them down that far, however, IBM has > always been pretty careful to design cabinets that somehow can fit > through a standard office door. Sometimes it is a very tight squeeze. I have mixed feelings about whether I should hope that they were careful enough to design cabinets to fit in a standard doublewide trailer's kitchen. ;) > On Nov 7, 2015, at 07:35 , Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >> Please don't help... I bought a small CNC mill today, and my wallet is empty. :-) >> > > I get it - just like my basement is full.... :) > Exactly! :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Nov 7 11:13:10 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 18:13:10 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/45-55 CPU fan assemblies In-Reply-To: <20151107135018.CCABC18C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151107135018.CCABC18C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2015 2:50 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: PDP-11/45-55 CPU fan assemblies Hi, all: I recently bought a PDP-11/45 [well, a /55, to be technical; the /45, /50 and /55 are completely identical except for i) the memory options installed at purchase, and ii) the printing on the front console :-], but alas, when I looked closely, it is missing both upper and lower CPU fan assemblies. (No doubt, removed to allow cannabilization of the fans, to keep another machine running.) (For those who aren't familiar, these are long brackets to which a number of the usual square fans are bolted; one is placed above, and one below, the cards in the main pull-out rack of the CPU. The one on top is hinged along the long edge, so it can be rolled back out out of the way, for running cables to boards.) So, does anyone i) have a spare set they don't want (I know, I know, I know, p < .00001, but maybe a miracle will happen); ii) have a set they can lend me so that I can get the sheet-metal part copied (I might get a spare or two made at the same time, depending on price, so we have some on hand); iii) failing all of the above, be willing to take lots of pictures, and some measurements, of a set, to aid in making reproductions. Thanks (hopefully :-)! Noel ========= I have an 11/45 and 11/55. The colors of the /55 are quite different from the 11/45. p <.00001 might need reconciliation ... I would have to check, but I am pretty sure I have the bottom "box", complete with fans. However, I remember it is *heavy*. I could remove the fans, but it is steel metal, so it will still be heavy. Shipping would be from The Netherlands. That is "world shipping" ... expensive :-/ I think I also have the top, but here my memory gets vague. It will be a few days before I get back to my "museum" though. Probably Tuesday evening. greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Nov 7 11:18:41 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 18:18:41 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/45-55 CPU fan assemblies In-Reply-To: References: <20151107135018.CCABC18C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: tony duell Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2015 2:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: PDP-11/45-55 CPU fan assemblies > IIRC that 21" mounting box (and I assume therefore the fan assemblies) > was used on other machines like the 11/40 (some versions), the 11/70, > etc. I am not suggesting you raid one of those for parts, but it might be > something else to look at. Yes, AFAIK, these were on all 21" boxen (BA11-F ?) > I do have an 11/45 here with the original fan trays. The top one is easy > to get at and measure, but IIRC the bottom one is a right pain, involving > removing all the boards and dismantling the very fragile card guides. True, unless you simply remove the entire fan box from the bottom of the card cage. Have a clean floor, you will have to lay on it, as a car mechanic :-) The box is (AFAIR) mounted on the card cage with 4 or 6 (?) screws. - Henk From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 7 14:54:16 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 15:54:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11/45-55 CPU fan assemblies Message-ID: <20151107205416.0D3DE18C101@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > IIRC that 21" mounting box (and I assume therefore the fan assemblies) > was used on other machines like the 11/40 (some versions), the 11/70, > etc. Yes, I _think_ the hardware was identical - I had an 11/40 for a year or two 'back in the day', before I got upgraded to an 11/45, but it's been a _long_ time since I've seen one, so I can't be positive. I tried to find parts numbers in the drawings, but none of them (11/40, /45, or BA11-F) had them. > the bottom one is a right pain, involving removing all the boards and > dismantling the very fragile card guides ??? Mine still has the card guides in place, although the bottom fan assembly is gone? Thanks very much for the offer of help, but let's see what Henk turns up! > From: Henk Gooijen > The colors of the /55 are quite different from the 11/45. Well, I did say that the front console was different! :-) But other than that, I am pretty sure they are otherwise identical: same backplane, same CPU boards (although the /45 can be found with both the KB11-A and KB11-D variants; I _think_ the /55 only comes with the -D), etc. > all 21" boxen (BA11-F ?) My manuals say the 11/40 one is a BA11-FC, and the 11/45 is a BA11-FA. Not sure what the difference is - maybe it's that the /45 has two H742's in it, and the 11/40 has only one? Although I guess those are mounted on the cabinet (although they are in some sense still part of the CPU chassis). Maybe it's the different power harness/etc? > The box is (AFAIR) mounted on the card cage with 4 or 6 (?) screws. Mine looks like it uses 6. Anyway, thanks very much, I have my fingers crossed that you will find both of them when you look! :-) Noel From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Nov 7 16:29:14 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 23:29:14 +0100 Subject: RSX-11M-PLUS SYSGEN printouts In-Reply-To: <563D563D.6040108@update.uu.se> References: <20151106230028.C813918C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <563D563D.6040108@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20151107222914.GB3055@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Nov 07, 2015 at 02:39:09AM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-11-07 00:00, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >An 11/84 I bought came with a couple of RSX-11M-PLUS V4.3 SYSGEN printouts; I > >don't intend to run RSX on the machine, so is there any use to this printout, > >or should I recycle it? If someone has a use for it, I'd be happy to send it > >to them. > > I'd seriously doubt there is any interest in such printouts. They > will essentially tell you how the system was generated - which > options, devices, and so on... How interesting is that? > If you needed to regenerate install for said system, would it be useful? Or is everything in the docs? /P From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sat Nov 7 17:25:04 2015 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 18:25:04 -0500 Subject: scrounging at recyclers In-Reply-To: <007701d1196f$ded21830$9c764890$@com> References: <007701d1196f$ded21830$9c764890$@com> Message-ID: <002e01d119b3$89d60500$9d820f00$@sc.rr.com> Hi Cindy, What type of stuff do you see? Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2015 10:21 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: scrounging at recyclers > > Often I come across various obsolete boards that SEEM to be what you guys want, but I am never really sure. This week I passed up a > large (at least 24" per side) HP server mainboard from the 70s, and some Wang boards from the same period. Since I no longer have > the warehouse, I have no way to keep them until somebody says they want it. My question is, what should I bring home? I do not have > email access while I am scrounging, so I can't post to this list. What besides old DEC boards are wanted? > > > > Cindy > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 7 18:14:31 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 01:14:31 +0100 Subject: RSX-11M-PLUS SYSGEN printouts In-Reply-To: <20151107222914.GB3055@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151106230028.C813918C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <563D563D.6040108@update.uu.se> <20151107222914.GB3055@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <563E93E7.9010200@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-07 23:29, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sat, Nov 07, 2015 at 02:39:09AM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-11-07 00:00, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> An 11/84 I bought came with a couple of RSX-11M-PLUS V4.3 SYSGEN printouts; I >>> don't intend to run RSX on the machine, so is there any use to this printout, >>> or should I recycle it? If someone has a use for it, I'd be happy to send it >>> to them. >> >> I'd seriously doubt there is any interest in such printouts. They >> will essentially tell you how the system was generated - which >> options, devices, and so on... How interesting is that? >> > > If you needed to regenerate install for said system, would it be useful? > Or is everything in the docs? How to do a SYSGEN is well documented in the manuals. The specifics for that SYSGEN is like a documentation (hopefully) of the actual hardware that was available on that specific machine, and potentially specific options that were chosen at that SYSGEN. I can't see much worth in either of those two details. That could possibly be interesting to someone who would want to document the history of the machine or the workplace where this was used. Ie. a rather non-technical interest, and more of a documentation of history kind of thing - possibly...? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From trash80 at internode.on.net Sat Nov 7 18:45:39 2015 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 11:45:39 +1100 Subject: WTB: Unix/Solaris Adobe FrameMaker 8 In-Reply-To: <563D47DB.5050504@oryx.us> References: <56386CBE.5030409@oryx.us> <563D47DB.5050504@oryx.us> Message-ID: <000d01d119be$d1c515d0$754f4170$@internode.on.net> Real odd comment :-) Try contacting Weird Stuff or visit their web site http://www.weirdstuff.com/ - as the name implies, occasionally they pop up with some really left field stuff. Maybe give them a call - if they don't have it they might be able to point you somewhere. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Kemp Sent: Saturday, 7 November 2015 11:38 AM To: General at classiccmp.org; "Discussion at classiccmp.org":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: WTB: Unix/Solaris Adobe FrameMaker 8 Nothing this year, not even an odd comment. :( Thanks for looking anyway. I'll try again fall 2016. Jerry On 11/ 3/15 02:13 AM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > I am looking to purchase/acquire a copy of Adobe FrameMaker 8 for Unix/Solaris. > > Straight from Adobe, FrameMaker had always been a pretty pricy item, > but I had always managed to acquire a legal copy, sometimes years old > and after the fact through eBay, etc. > > And through that method, I own legal copies+media of 5.x, 6.x and 7.x > for Unix and Mac. > > I had hoped to purchase a copy of version 8 via a similar method, but > several years have passed by, and I have never seen a copy of version 8 for sale. > > After version 8, FrameMaker was significantly changed and released for > dos/windows only. I believe that the current version is 11.x or above. > > Also, in case it isn't obvious, this is for myself for home use only. > > Jerry From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 19:36:18 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:36:18 -0800 Subject: PDP 8E Panel Paint Chipping - How to seal edges Message-ID: Hi all, I've just emailed Rod Smallwood about a replacement panel, but in the meantime, I have some chipping and curling at the edges of the panel paint near the switches which seems to be getting worse and spreading. Is there a way to seal the curling paint edges to prevent further damage? perhaps clear nail polish? thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 7 19:38:23 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:38:23 -0800 Subject: WTB: Unix/Solaris Adobe FrameMaker 8 In-Reply-To: <000d01d119be$d1c515d0$754f4170$@internode.on.net> References: <56386CBE.5030409@oryx.us> <563D47DB.5050504@oryx.us> <000d01d119be$d1c515d0$754f4170$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <563EA78F.7040602@bitsavers.org> On 11/7/15 4:45 PM, Kevin Parker wrote: > Try contacting Weird Stuff Most of the boxed software goes out on the floor or in the 'free' box outside the store. Lyle might see it when it comes in, though generally they don't sort used software or books, they just give it to retail. From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Nov 8 06:50:28 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 13:50:28 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <563E2086.6020107@softjar.se> References: <563E2086.6020107@softjar.se> Message-ID: <563F4514.1020100@update.uu.se> Argh. For anyone who have downloaded the release I cut yesterday - please get the new version (that goes for everyone else as well). I just discovered and fixed an obscure bug that can crash the system. It's something that happens under very specific circumstances, and is uncommon, but if you have lots of TCP connections coming and going, you'll hit it sooner or later. As usual, the distribution is available from: ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk The documentation is also available through ftp on Mim, or also at http://mim.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc Johnny On 2015-11-07 17:02, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Well, about two weeks since my last announcement, but I figured I should > do another one. > > I've cut a new release of TCP/IP for RSX, and I encourage everyone to > update to this latest release. > > A short list of changes since my last release: > > Documentation: > . I've worked some on the documentation, and filled out some parts that > were previously TBD. > > TCP: > . Performance improvements. In general, I've improved file transfer > performance by about 20% by tuning when TCP ACK messages as well as > window updates are sent. On links where packets are dropped from time to > time, the performance improvements can be significantly higher. > . Bugfix. Retry counter were incorrectly reset under some circumstances. > . Bugfix. TCP did not resend an ACK if the same data was received twice. > . Bugfix. TCP sockets could erronously be left in a closed state with > no task. However, looking at the socket, it looked like a task was > associated. > > FTP: > . Size calculation for stream type files in RSX mode was done incorrectly. > > Applications: > . I've included a precompiled version of PCL.TSK > > As usual, the distribution is available from: > ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk > ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap > ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk > > The documentation is also available through ftp on Mim, or also at > http://mim.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc > > Johnny > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 11:50:06 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 09:50:06 -0800 Subject: Deciphering PDP-11/05 ZQKC (Instruction Exerciser) MAINDEC failures... Message-ID: Hi all - As noted in a mail last week, I now have my PDP-11/05 running with working core (8KW). I had some time last night to try loading in some "real" software, and I started with the PDP-11 paper-tape BASIC, which I've successfully loaded into memory (in theory). At this point, it became clear that there's still an issue or two to iron out in the CPU; BASIC behaves extremely erratically, spewing random error messages, listing garbage, and corrupting itself and crashing pretty quickly. I'd run the memory exerciser MAINDECs previously (and I ran them again for good measure) and there are no obvious issues with the memory. The system exerciser diagnostic (ZQKB) passes, but the "11 family instruction exerciser" (ZQKC) fails after a minute or so at PC=016014. I have the listing for the diagnostic (though I'm not precisely sure whether it's exactly the same revision) from here: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/diag_listings/MAINDEC-11-DZQKC-C-D_11_Family_Instruction_Exerciser_Nov73.pdf The doc is pretty grainy but the code at 016012 doesn't actually seem to match what I've got in memory (I disabled relocation in the test just to be sure things didn't get moved around) and there's no failure check at that particular point in memory either. I've tried the paper-tape images from Bitsavers as well as the ones on the XXDP RL02 images floating around out there and they all yield the same results; I suppose it's possible the CPU is failing in such a way as to make the test reporting incorrect but it seems more likely that (a) I have an outdated listing or (b) I'm misinterpreting the results somehow. Anyone have any experience with this particular diagnostic? Thanks, Josh From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Nov 8 12:50:58 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 10:50:58 -0800 Subject: WTB: Unix/Solaris Adobe FrameMaker 8 In-Reply-To: <563EA78F.7040602@bitsavers.org> References: <56386CBE.5030409@oryx.us> <563D47DB.5050504@oryx.us> <000d01d119be$d1c515d0$754f4170$@internode.on.net> <563EA78F.7040602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20151108105058.1c0bb035@asrock.bcwi.net> Kevin, On Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:38:23 -0800 Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/7/15 4:45 PM, Kevin Parker wrote: > > > Try contacting Weird Stuff > > Most of the boxed software goes out on the floor or in the 'free' box outside > the store. > > Lyle might see it when it comes in, though generally they don't sort > used software or books, they just give it to retail. Solaris and related software is located in two places. In "As Is" to the far right as you enter that area and also in a "stash" located in the employee only area. If you are looking for a specific Solaris software package (including version, etc.) contact me off list. I go to WS about once a week and have access to all areas... Lyle > > > -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 13:48:55 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 14:48:55 -0500 Subject: Deciphering PDP-11/05 ZQKC (Instruction Exerciser) MAINDEC failures... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all - > > As noted in a mail last week, I now have my PDP-11/05 running with working > core (8KW). I had some time last night to try loading in some "real" > software, and I started with the PDP-11 paper-tape BASIC, which I've > successfully loaded into memory (in theory). At this point, it became > clear that there's still an issue or two to iron out in the CPU; BASIC > behaves extremely erratically, spewing random error messages, listing > garbage, and corrupting itself and crashing pretty quickly. > > I'd run the memory exerciser MAINDECs previously (and I ran them again for > good measure) and there are no obvious issues with the memory. The system > exerciser diagnostic (ZQKB) passes, but the "11 family instruction > exerciser" (ZQKC) fails after a minute or so at PC=016014. > > I have the listing for the diagnostic (though I'm not precisely sure > whether it's exactly the same revision) from here: > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/diag_listings/MAINDEC-11-DZQKC-C-D_11_Family_Instruction_Exerciser_Nov73.pdf > > The doc is pretty grainy but the code at 016012 doesn't actually seem to > match what I've got in memory (I disabled relocation in the test just to be > sure things didn't get moved around) and there's no failure check at that > particular point in memory either. > > I've tried the paper-tape images from Bitsavers as well as the ones on the > XXDP RL02 images floating around out there and they all yield the same > results; I suppose it's possible the CPU is failing in such a way as to > make the test reporting incorrect but it seems more likely that (a) I have > an outdated listing or (b) I'm misinterpreting the results somehow. > > Anyone have any experience with this particular diagnostic? > > Thanks, > Josh > FWIW - I find the MAINDEC programs frustrating to work with myself. I am also working on an 11/05, same basic stage in testing. I can load programs but I get failures eventually. The power tests accurately. I think in my case the G114 (sense / inhibit) is the issue but I am still working on it. I have a teletype set up to interact with the machine. -- Bill From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 14:21:22 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 12:21:22 -0800 Subject: scrounging at recyclers Message-ID: <003a01d11a63$09aa8670$1cff9350$@gmail.com> > Cindy Croxton wrote >This week I passed up a > large (at least 24" per side) HP server mainboard from the 70s Large HP boards from the 70's. This sounds just about perfect. This one would have fit the description of a HP 1000 mainboard pretty well. Medium sized ones too. Anything HP from the 70's or early 80's for that matter. Bring' em home! Marc From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 14:36:34 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:36:34 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/45-55 CPU fan assemblies In-Reply-To: References: <20151107135018.CCABC18C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2015 3:08 PM, "Henk Gooijen" wrote: > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: tony duell Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2015 2:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: PDP-11/45-55 CPU fan assemblies >> >> IIRC that 21" mounting box (and I assume therefore the fan assemblies) >> was used on other machines like the 11/40 (some versions), the 11/70, >> etc. I am not suggesting you raid one of those for parts, but it might be >> something else to look at. > > > Yes, AFAIK, these were on all 21" boxen (BA11-F ?) > > >> I do have an 11/45 here with the original fan trays. The top one is easy >> to get at and measure, but IIRC the bottom one is a right pain, involving >> removing all the boards and dismantling the very fragile card guides. > > > True, unless you simply remove the entire fan box from the bottom of > the card cage. Have a clean floor, you will have to lay on it, as a car > mechanic :-) The box is (AFAIR) mounted on the card cage with 4 or > 6 (?) screws. > > - Henk Noel, What pdp 11 do you have now? Any progress on the 34? I have my 40 taken apart wirh only the empty card cage in the rack. If you're in the area you can swing by to take measurements. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 8 16:08:12 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 22:08:12 -0000 Subject: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load In-Reply-To: <064c01d115c4$b13b4580$13b1d080$@ntlworld.com> References: <050801d1149e$8be3de90$a3ab9bb0$@ntlworld.com> <051001d114ae$3803c050$a80b40f0$@ntlworld.com> <051a01d114c3$43a94500$cafbcf00$@ntlworld.com> <062901d115ae$089636d0$19c2a470$@ntlworld.com> <062a01d115b2$2552cb40$6ff861c0$@ntlworld.com> <064c01d115c4$b13b4580$13b1d080$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <09cb01d11a71$f5964e30$e0c2ea90$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 02 November 2015 23:18 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > Mattis Lind > > Sent: 02 November 2015 21:44 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Testing H7864 (MicroVAX II) PSU With No Load > > > > 2015-11-02 22:05 GMT+01:00 Robert Jarratt : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have just uploaded all the corrections. So the connector names on > > > the risers should now correspond. I have also corrected the area on > > > the primary control module around C403 and R407. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > Checked the new one. There are still something weird. The base of Q301 > > it is short circuited to the emitter (which if that is true would of > > cause your problem). But I think this is a drawing mistake. The base > > signals goes to the > > D405 diode which is connected to emitter Q405 and emitter Q406 which > > is then connected to emitter Q301... Please check this again. Maybe > > there are a short circuit component that makes you trace it wrong (if > > you do it by ohm-meter) > > > > /Mattis > > Thanks for spotting the drawing mistake. I have noted an apparent short > before, and I have some notes I made at the time, but that was so long ago > (almost a year!), and the notes don't seem to conclude whether I found the > short or not. I think I may have put it down to some of the transformers at the > time, but I can't be sure. I will investigate this further as this is quite promising, > but it looks like I will need to desolder some components... > > Regards > > Rob I have been doing some further checking of the schematic for the primary control section, because that is where the failure was, and I have found some significant errors. I have been over it as carefully as I can and hopefully it is now much more accurate. I have also made the connections to the primary side of the transformer correct, although as I remark on the schematic, I don't know how the transformer is wired in relation to the secondary outputs. Regarding the apparent short between the base and the emitter of Q301 (as measured, not as drawn - I have corrected the drawing), seems to be just the low value of R410, the resistance I measure b-e is 39R, which is exactly the marking on this resistor. So I think this would explain that. One other thing worth noting is that there is evidence of heat around D408, but it tests OK (in circuit). The updated Primary Control schematic is still here: http://1drv.ms/1KQkTBp Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 8 17:27:37 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 23:27:37 -0000 Subject: Is This Optimistic? Message-ID: <09d201d11a7d$0e1e8390$2a5b8ab0$@ntlworld.com> I was just browsing eBay for stuff near me when I came across this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Apple-Color-Plotter-/291611803288 I don?t know anything about Apple stuff at all, but surely ?5,000 for this is a bit optimistic, isn?t it? Regards Rob From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 17:51:02 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 18:51:02 -0500 Subject: Is This Optimistic? In-Reply-To: <09d201d11a7d$0e1e8390$2a5b8ab0$@ntlworld.com> References: <09d201d11a7d$0e1e8390$2a5b8ab0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I was just browsing eBay for stuff near me when I came across this: > > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Apple-Color-Plotter-/291611803288 > > > > I don?t know anything about Apple stuff at all, but surely ?5,000 for this > is a bit optimistic, isn?t it? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > Drat! I just bought one for $10,000 last month. Could have saved enough for a $5000 Lisa mouse. -- Bill From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 17:53:13 2015 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:53:13 -0600 Subject: Is This Optimistic? In-Reply-To: References: <09d201d11a7d$0e1e8390$2a5b8ab0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0C77F428-AEC9-4C81-9824-601AC0583C17@gmail.com> Well, a 'new, never used" one didn't sell for US $199....so.... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Functional-Vintage-Apple-410-Color-Plotter-Printer-Never-Used-1983-A9M0302-/181905173892 On Nov 8, 2015, at 5:51 PM, william degnan wrote: > On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > >> I was just browsing eBay for stuff near me when I came across this: >> >> >> >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Apple-Color-Plotter-/291611803288 >> >> >> >> I don?t know anything about Apple stuff at all, but surely ?5,000 for this >> is a bit optimistic, isn?t it? >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> Rob >> >> > Drat! I just bought one for $10,000 last month. Could have saved enough > for a $5000 Lisa mouse. > > -- > Bill From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Nov 8 17:59:43 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 15:59:43 -0800 Subject: Is This Optimistic? Message-ID: Drat!? I just bought one for $10,000 last month.? Could have saved enoughfor a $5000 Lisa mouse. -- Bill No u couldn't Bill as that price is in sterling not dollars :) From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 9 01:43:36 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 07:43:36 +0000 Subject: Front Panel - Update - 4-2-GO Message-ID: <56404EA8.2030602@btinternet.com> Hi Guys 1 Real 8/e panel as absolute check leaves US on its way to me to-day 2. Out of twenty slots sixteen have gone. That leaves four. If they don't go before printing starts I'll have them screened to uncommitted /e (can become A or B) 3. For me its back to PDP11/40 thru 11/70 layouts. 4. Anybody need a one off. I'm trying to find an economic way to handle custom jobs 5. I'm also looking at an option to put manufacturing locations on as found on some systems (default is Maynard) Rod From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 02:08:06 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:08:06 -0500 Subject: scrounging at recyclers In-Reply-To: <003a01d11a63$09aa8670$1cff9350$@gmail.com> References: <003a01d11a63$09aa8670$1cff9350$@gmail.com> Message-ID: +1 with Marc. Sounds like a 21MX of some flavor. It will have two prominent card-edge connectors side-by-side around mid-board that connect to memory and I/O busses that run "up" from the PCB-face. On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > > Cindy Croxton wrote > >This week I passed up a > > large (at least 24" per side) HP server mainboard from the 70s > > Large HP boards from the 70's. This sounds just about perfect. This one > would have fit the description of a HP 1000 mainboard pretty well. Medium > sized ones too. Anything HP from the 70's or early 80's for that matter. > Bring' em home! > Marc > > > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 9 02:48:46 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 00:48:46 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/03 Message-ID: <56405DEE.9080905@jwsss.com> I'm looking for a cable or cable pinout to get the console of this 11/03 going. I figure to ask the simple question here rather than dig my self a hole trying to puzzle it out or guess the solution. http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2015/11/pdp-1103-system.html It has a M7940-YA DLV11 controller. I hope to get it working and run thru some testing of the other boards I've accumulated and sell one back off to end up with a working system. I'll probably be in the market or need to try to set up a floppy drive as this appears to have a floppy controller to also have a bit more functionality. Right now ODT and some fun would be nice. thanks Jim http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2015/11/pdp-1103-system.html From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Nov 9 03:46:06 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 10:46:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: Teletype services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Nov 2015, John Ball wrote: > People have been nagging me for the last year to get a Panasonic 308. I've > yet to come across one so far that wasn't weirdly priced, plus my parents > aren't interested in a PBX being installed in their house. Pricy? Most of the time you can get them either for free or for a few bucks, like the FritzBox 7050 I'm using at home (cost me 10 Euros at Ebay, and it runs Linux!). And you don't need to install it anywhere, just use it to connect your two modems (i.e. Teletype and "PC" modem) and dial from one port into the other one if all you want is testing the modem of the Teletype. Christian From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Mon Nov 9 04:34:20 2015 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 05:34:20 -0500 Subject: Front Panels - Pricing In-Reply-To: <563B987F.9000305@btinternet.com> References: <563B987F.9000305@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <002e01d11ada$321e8a30$965b9e90$@sc.rr.com> Hi Rod, I'd love have a PiDP8 running with one of these panels, but at this point I'm going to have to wait. :( Will these be available later on? Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of rod > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 12:57 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Front Panels - Pricing > > Hi Guys > Ok I now have the pricing for the current run of panels. > Featuring all new silk screens. > > > PDP-8/e Type A or B ?65.00 UKP + Ship to US at ?15 UK = > ?80.00 = USD $121.00 > PDP-8/f or /m ?70.00 UKP + Ship to US at ?15 > UK = ?85.00 = USD $130.00 > > Payment as before to my PayPal account using my email address rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com > > Regards > > Rod From steven at malikoff.com Mon Nov 9 04:48:31 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 20:48:31 +1000 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56405DEE.9080905@jwsss.com> References: <56405DEE.9080905@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5f8a31022c283209fddc425622db4a6e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: PDP 11/03 From: "jwsmobile" Date: Mon, November 9, 2015 6:48 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm looking for a cable or cable pinout to get the console of this 11/03 > going. I figure to ask the simple question here rather than dig my self > a hole trying to puzzle it out or guess the solution. > > http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2015/11/pdp-1103-system.html > > It has a M7940-YA DLV11 controller. I hope to get it working and run > thru some testing of the other boards I've accumulated and sell one back > off to end up with a working system. > > I'll probably be in the market or need to try to set up a floppy drive > as this appears to have a floppy controller to also have a bit more > functionality. > > Right now ODT and some fun would be nice. > > thanks > Jim > > http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2015/11/pdp-1103-system.html > > I have the same chassis and pretty much the same cards as yours, awaiting time to redo the supply for 240V and check it out. I could not find a PDF for the M7940 (mine is the -M version) but did find this page: http://hampage.hu/dr/dlv11.html I'm interested in replicating the 11/03 running LSX in this interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8eIyAdwLoI I've paused and noted down the cards in that box and have slowly been acquiring them over recent months. Still looking for the 2RU bezel for mine... could fabricate it from styrene I guess, but that would be another priority -1000 project. Steve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 9 06:09:09 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 07:09:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP 11/03 Message-ID: <20151109120909.5E8CC18C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim Stephensn > I'm looking for a cable or cable pinout to get the console of this > 11/03 going. > ... > It has a M7940-YA DLV11 controller. Hmm. I can't find anything online about the -YA variant of the DLV11; the DLV11 prints (MP00055) don't seem to show it. I don't know exactly wqhat the "extra wires to bring out clock & .. 110/300 speed change" entail - and whether you have to have the right jumpers, etc in the Berg connector to make it run? Maybe the easier path would be to buy a different DL-type serial line board (plain DLV11, DLV11-E, DLV11-F, DLV11-J), they're available on eBait for not much money, usually - unless you already have one on hand, of course. (Or did you - for authenticity reasons - _have_ to run the -YA card?) Those are all a known quantity, pinout-wise; the first three all use the standard DL11 cable [same as the UNIBUS one, M7800], the last one uses the smaller header common to the later QBUS machines (e.g. 11/23+, etc). If you have the Berg female shells and pins (not sure if you do; if not, definitely worth getting them, since the cables are basically unobtainable, but fairly easy to make), but don't know the pinout for them, let me know, and I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable diagrams (for DB25 connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial cables, but not for direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate those too). Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 9 07:38:43 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:38:43 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Pricing In-Reply-To: <002e01d11ada$321e8a30$965b9e90$@sc.rr.com> References: <563B987F.9000305@btinternet.com> <002e01d11ada$321e8a30$965b9e90$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <5640A1E3.1080106@btinternet.com> Hi Kip Panels for 8/e 8/f and 8/m will normally be a stock item. They have only been used so far on the genuine DEC systems they were intended for. You might want to check if PiDP8 will work. Rod On 09/11/15 10:34, Kip Koon wrote: > Hi Rod, > I'd love have a PiDP8 running with one of these panels, but at this point I'm going to have to wait. :( Will these be available later on? > > Kip Koon > computerdoc at sc.rr.com > http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of rod >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 12:57 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Front Panels - Pricing >> >> Hi Guys >> Ok I now have the pricing for the current run of panels. >> Featuring all new silk screens. >> >> >> PDP-8/e Type A or B ?65.00 UKP + Ship to US at ?15 UK = >> ?80.00 = USD $121.00 >> PDP-8/f or /m ?70.00 UKP + Ship to US at ?15 >> UK = ?85.00 = USD $130.00 >> >> Payment as before to my PayPal account using my email address rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com >> >> Regards >> >> Rod From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Nov 9 08:04:06 2015 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:04:06 -0500 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <563BECD7.9090800@bitsavers.org> References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563BECD7.9090800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5640A7D6.2010103@heeltoe.com> On 11/5/15 6:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/5/15 3:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 11/5/15 10:40 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: >> >>> And then around 100 / 150 8" floppies to image.... >>> >> when it rains it pours.. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/311470113149 >> >> Eric Smith and I have been looking for these for a long time. >> They are BASF floppies, though. >> >> >> > > and about a month ago a friend had the instruction chip with the > decode PLA decapped and photographed. > > I was wondering about software. Is anyone planning to turn those schematics into verilog? If they are, and they want help, let me know... -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 9 08:11:22 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 06:11:22 -0800 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <5640A7D6.2010103@heeltoe.com> References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563BECD7.9090800@bitsavers.org> <5640A7D6.2010103@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <5640A98A.10203@bitsavers.org> On 11/9/15 6:04 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > I was wondering about software. Is anyone planning to turn those schematics into verilog? > Help would be nice reverse-engineering the chipset. I also picked up some of the Russian versions of the instruction decode chip. From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Nov 9 08:14:25 2015 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:14:25 -0500 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: <5638073A.8090307@bitsavers.org> References: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC22BEB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5638073A.8090307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5640AA41.1030801@heeltoe.com> On 11/2/15 8:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/2/15 2:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Not just running condition. 100,000 pounds of gear, including the 9, >> 6, and a >> 7 that had been retired in the 90s, spares for all of them, the 8 >> running disk >> drives and 4 running tape drives, along with about 20 more disk >> drives (the >> older 50MB hydraulic units) from the 7. Five 24' trucks, driven by >> Stan and his >> brothers from Flagstaff to Seattle. >> > I am glad that LCM was able to save these systems. > If I were king, there would be a Sigma running where the 1401 is at CHM. > I'll never forget the community memory at Project One. It certainly changed my life (well, got me to head to SF as a misguided 15 year old :-) That, and the newspaper printed versions of DDJ featuring some teaching language (pilot?) in HP basic, caused me to pursue software with a vengeance. -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 9 08:25:13 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 06:25:13 -0800 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: <5640AA41.1030801@heeltoe.com> References: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC22BEB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5638073A.8090307@bitsavers.org> <5640AA41.1030801@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <5640ACC8.70407@bitsavers.org> On 11/9/15 6:14 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > I'll never forget the community memory at Project One. We have the tape backups along with their paper archives at CHM thanks to Lee F. I'm hoping to get to archiving the cartridge tapes at some point. They aren't in normal QIC format. From rickb at bensene.com Mon Nov 9 08:55:35 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 06:55:35 -0800 Subject: PILOT (was youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals) Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029D40@mail.bensene.com> > Brad Parker wrote: > > That, and the newspaper printed versions of DDJ featuring some teaching > language (pilot?) in HP basic, caused me to pursue software with a > vengeance. > Yup, the language was indeed PILOT, which was a language focused on CAI (Computer Assisted Instruction). It was written in BASIC (a pretty large series of programs) on the HP Timeshared BASIC system. It was used quite a bit in the Chemistry and Math curriculums at the high school I went to run courseware for these classes. It annoyed us computer guys, as it meant more kids coming in to compete for the online 33ASR TTYs! Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 9 09:58:48 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 10:58:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals Message-ID: <20151109155848.E4D7018C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pierre Gebhardt > Lee and Rich, > thanks a million for sharing .. your memories about George and his > commitment regarding the preservation of these Sigma systems!!! Ditto. Noel From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Nov 9 11:30:11 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:30:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What computer is this? References: <105871962.1635419.1447090211615.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <105871962.1635419.1447090211615.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I saw this and I wanted to know if anyone could tell me what computer is this? http://imgur.com/jfx3XE9 From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 11:53:33 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:53:33 -0600 Subject: What computer is this? In-Reply-To: <105871962.1635419.1447090211615.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <105871962.1635419.1447090211615.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <105871962.1635419.1447090211615.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Christian Liendo < christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > > I saw this and I wanted to know if anyone could tell me what computer is > this? > Looks to be a Digital Group system. Kyle From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 13:15:26 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 12:15:26 -0700 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <5640A7D6.2010103@heeltoe.com> References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563BECD7.9090800@bitsavers.org> <5640A7D6.2010103@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:04 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > I was wondering about software. Is anyone planning to turn those schematics > into verilog? I'm working on dumping the microcode. The CP2161 control chip and CP2171-nn microms are probably the same as the corresponding CP1621/CP1661 and CP1631-nn, respectively, other than the PLA contents in the control chip and the ROM contents of the microms. The "control" chip PLAs are involved in macroinstruction decode and microinstruction sequencing, and there is no known way to dump them electrically, so as Al mentioned, a friend had photomicrographs of that chip made. We may need photomicrographs of the CP2161 (LSI-11) and/or CP1661 (WD-16, Alpha Micro AM100) for comparison. A low-resolution photomicrograph of the CP2161 is already online, but higher resolution is needed to resolve PLA contents. There is evidence that the data path chip, CP2151, is interchangeable with the CP1611 data path chip used in the LSI-11 and WD16. The microarchitecture, including the microinstruction set, is documented in the DEC LSI-11 WCS User's Guide, EK-KUV11-TM-001, (available on Bitsavers). Note that some details in that manual, including the usage of microinstruction bus bits MIB<21:18>, are specific to how the chip set is used in the LSI-11, and are not applicable to the WD90 chipset. The WD9000 board contains one WD chip for which no documentation is available, the WD2083U-04. When I traced the signals it appeared to be a custom interrupt and DMA request prioritizer. That appears to be confirmed by the recently found WD9000 schematics (also on Bitsavers). I suspect that the WD2083 is a mask-programmed PLA. Other than the WD90 chipset and the WD2083, all of the chips on the WD900 board were readily commercially available and reasonably well documented. From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Mon Nov 9 13:29:05 2015 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 20:29:05 +0100 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <5640A98A.10203@bitsavers.org> References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563BECD7.9090800@bitsavers.org> <5640A7D6.2010103@heeltoe.com> <5640A98A.10203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5640F401.8030701@bluewin.ch> On 09.11.2015 15:11, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/9/15 6:04 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > >> I was wondering about software. Is anyone planning to turn those schematics into verilog? >> > > Help would be nice reverse-engineering the chipset. > > I also picked up some of the Russian versions of the instruction decode chip. > > Are the system MICROM's already read out ? Furthermore there seems to have been variants of the Microengine with and without the interrupt priority encoder.( WD2083-U04 ) Anyone aware of these variants ? Jos From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 13:31:10 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 12:31:10 -0700 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <5640F401.8030701@bluewin.ch> References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563BECD7.9090800@bitsavers.org> <5640A7D6.2010103@heeltoe.com> <5640A98A.10203@bitsavers.org> <5640F401.8030701@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Furthermore there seems to have been variants of the Microengine with and > without the interrupt priority encoder.( WD2083-U04 ) > Anyone aware of these variants ? All of the WD900 boards I've seen have the WD2083-U04, but I don't think the Modular Microengine uses it. From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Mon Nov 9 13:39:47 2015 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 20:39:47 +0100 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563BECD7.9090800@bitsavers.org> <5640A7D6.2010103@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <5640F683.2080307@bluewin.ch> On 09.11.2015 20:15, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:04 AM, Brad Parker wrote: >> I was wondering about software. Is anyone planning to turn those schematics >> into verilog? > > I'm working on dumping the microcode. > Your post overlapped with mine... > The WD9000 board contains one WD chip for which no documentation is > available, the WD2083U-04. It is indeed an interrupt priority encoder. I believe it is identical to the am25ls2513, as that is what is used in and early version of the schematics. Jos When I traced the signals it appeared to be > a custom interrupt and DMA request prioritizer. That appears to be > confirmed by the recently found WD9000 schematics (also on Bitsavers). > I suspect that the WD2083 is a mask-programmed PLA. > > Other than the WD90 chipset and the WD2083, all of the chips on the > WD900 board were readily commercially available and reasonably well > documented. > From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 9 13:46:13 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:46:13 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <563C25ED.5090408@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I got a reply from the seller of this system, and I'll see if I can go take a look at it today or tomorrow. Of course, Mike still needs to buy it. ;) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 9 13:48:21 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:48:21 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <563C25ED.5090408@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5640F885.4010106@bitsavers.org> On 11/9/15 11:46 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I got a reply from the seller of this system, and I'll see if I can go take a look at it today or tomorrow. And so far, it's still priceless. From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 9 13:50:47 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:50:47 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <5640F885.4010106@bitsavers.org> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <563C25ED.5090408@jwsss.com> <5640F885.4010106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <79B2CB45-E456-4C0A-BEB3-CD2C6D3003E9@nf6x.net> > On Nov 9, 2015, at 11:48, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/9/15 11:46 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> I got a reply from the seller of this system, and I'll see if I can go take a look at it today or tomorrow. > > And so far, it's still priceless. Maybe I can do something about that. I'll see if I can take pictures to share with y'all, and ask for a ballpark asking price. Somebody else needs to rescue this one (if it's worth rescuing, and at a reasonable price), but I can probably help out since it's so close to me. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Mon Nov 9 14:00:10 2015 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:00:10 -0700 Subject: PDP 8E Panel Paint Chipping - How to seal edges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Depends on why it is peeling. My glass panel on the Straight 8 was peeling. I suspect finger oil was what started it and once it started peeling there was no good way to stop it. I scraped back to the color change line and cleaned the glass and repainted. That was around 1985 and it has stayed put so far. Your best bet would be to do something similar. Mask it off and remove the peeling paint back to the mask line. Prime the surface and then paint with a color that is close. If it will be exposed to a UV source you might consider overcoating with a UV block type of clear coat. I think you can get clear coat in a non gloss if that is what you want. You can try nail polish. The acetone in the polish might dissolve the original paint. If possible try it first in a place that is not visible. It could make things worse. Good luck! Doug On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Hi all, > > I've just emailed Rod Smallwood about a replacement panel, but in the > meantime, I have some chipping and curling at the edges of the panel paint > near the switches which seems to be getting worse and spreading. > > Is there a way to seal the curling paint edges to prevent further damage? > perhaps clear nail polish? > > thanks, > > - Ian > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 14:11:02 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:11:02 -0700 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <5640F683.2080307@bluewin.ch> References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563BECD7.9090800@bitsavers.org> <5640A7D6.2010103@heeltoe.com> <5640F683.2080307@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: [about the WD2083U-04] > It is indeed an interrupt priority encoder. > I believe it is identical to the am25ls2513, as that is what is used in and > early version of the schematics. Interesting. I'd never seen any official schematics before you posted yours, and apparently I don't have any early enough boards to have the Am25LS2513. I might at some point contrive a test fixture to verify the WD2083U-04 behavior against the Am25LS2513, to determine whether there are any changes. Since the AMD part was readily available at the time, and not expensive, I wouldn't have expected WD to design their own replacement unless they wanted to change the functionality. By the way, do you have sheet 5? No hurry, but it would be nice to see that too. Best regards, Eric From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 9 14:13:16 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 12:13:16 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <20151109120909.5E8CC18C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151109120909.5E8CC18C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5640FE5C.9080808@jwsss.com> On 11/9/2015 4:09 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jim Stephensn > > > I'm looking for a cable or cable pinout to get the console of this > > 11/03 going. > > ... > > It has a M7940-YA DLV11 controller. > > Hmm. I can't find anything online about the -YA variant of the DLV11; the > DLV11 prints (MP00055) don't seem to show it. > > I don't know exactly wqhat the "extra wires to bring out clock & .. 110/300 > speed change" entail - and whether you have to have the right jumpers, etc in > the Berg connector to make it run? the above reference I copied and pasted from Megan Gentry's dec module guide http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt I don't know what that means either. I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get it going with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need to loop back any of the other pins. Also I will have to figure out the serial settings, as Dec was fond of even parity, and so forth. I figure DEC folks do that in their sleep, like others do with the systems they work on frequenly. I have several 4 port DLV boards, but want to go with this as a reference. I paid a bit too much for it because it was "working" and I don't want to screw it up by replacing cards. I know even less about loading the backplane than I do about hooking up a serial cable. I figure worst case I'll get the ribbon cable and wire the lines to a DB9 or such and see what happens from there. I was hoping to get some idea whether the correct cable might be available from someone on the list first, and buy it, or better, find out how to spot them on ebay. I've had a lot of luck with the boards, but none with finding listings for cabling. Once I have the full system I got working, I have another full system and a power supply I plan to bring to working, then I'll be brave enough to start moving things around in the backplane and trying the 4 port cards. Most of them came from the cheap scrap guy, so I don't know the state of them as well. I've seen some people found there were duds in the pile. > > Maybe the easier path would be to buy a different DL-type serial line board > (plain DLV11, DLV11-E, DLV11-F, DLV11-J), they're available on eBait for not > much money, usually - unless you already have one on hand, of course. (Or did > you - for authenticity reasons - _have_ to run the -YA card?) > > Those are all a known quantity, pinout-wise; the first three all use the > standard DL11 cable [same as the UNIBUS one, M7800], the last one uses the > smaller header common to the later QBUS machines (e.g. 11/23+, etc). > > If you have the Berg female shells and pins (not sure if you do; if not, > definitely worth getting them, since the cables are basically unobtainable, > but fairly easy to make), but don't know the pinout for them, let me know, > and I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable diagrams (for DB25 > connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial cables, but not for > direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate those too). I'd love that, thanks Noel. I'm just trying to get as many questions answered before I start applying power and squinting at LED's on a serial status box, or on a scope. > Noel Thanks Jim From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 14:18:18 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:18:18 -0700 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563BECD7.9090800@bitsavers.org> <5640A7D6.2010103@heeltoe.com> <5640F683.2080307@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: Note that there is (at least) one error in the schematics. Two pins of the WD2803U-04 are labeled 11, and pin 1 is not shown. The DRQ1B- signal should actually be on pin 1. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 9 14:22:33 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 21:22:33 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <5640FE5C.9080808@jwsss.com> References: <20151109120909.5E8CC18C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5640FE5C.9080808@jwsss.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: jwsmobile Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP 11/03 > I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get it > going with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need > to loop back any of the other pins. Also I will have to figure out > the serial settings, as Dec was fond of even parity, and so forth. As far as my limited PDP-11 knowledge goes, none of them used handshake. So, Rxd, TxD and GND is all you need to connect. Also, common (?) is *no* parity. - Henk From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 14:26:02 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:26:02 -0700 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > * The expansion bus in the IBM PC was the same bus as the System/23. The > connector was rotated 180* so that some of the less expensive > cards from the PC couldn't be used in the System/23. The other > reason for this was since the IBM PC was done on a "shoe string" > budget, they could take the System/23 cards and only had to do some > minimal re-layout of the board. Did the System/23 also use edge-triggered interrupts, rather than level? Do you have any idea why it was thought a good idea to use edge-triggered interrupts? From cube1 at charter.net Mon Nov 9 14:37:16 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:37:16 -0600 Subject: Deciphering PDP-11/05 ZQKC (Instruction Exerciser) MAINDEC failures... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> On 11/8/2015 11:50 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all - > > As noted in a mail last week, I now have my PDP-11/05 running with working > core (8KW). I had some time last night to try loading in some "real" > software, and I started with the PDP-11 paper-tape BASIC, which I've > successfully loaded into memory (in theory). At this point, it became > clear that there's still an issue or two to iron out in the CPU; BASIC > behaves extremely erratically, spewing random error messages, listing > garbage, and corrupting itself and crashing pretty quickly. > > I'd run the memory exerciser MAINDECs previously (and I ran them again for > good measure) and there are no obvious issues with the memory. The system > exerciser diagnostic (ZQKB) passes, but the "11 family instruction > exerciser" (ZQKC) fails after a minute or so at PC=016014. > > I have the listing for the diagnostic (though I'm not precisely sure > whether it's exactly the same revision) from here: > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/diag_listings/MAINDEC-11-DZQKC-C-D_11_Family_Instruction_Exerciser_Nov73.pdf > So, this one would likely be named something like DZQKCC.BIC (or .BIN) on disk. My guess is that yours is a different file name in the last two characters before the period. The paper tape image I found on bitsavers is two revs up from that - DZQKCE. I didn't take the time to start up a disk image and look at it. > The doc is pretty grainy but the code at 016012 doesn't actually seem to > match what I've got in memory (I disabled relocation in the test just to be > sure things didn't get moved around) and there's no failure check at that > particular point in memory either. > > I've tried the paper-tape images from Bitsavers as well as the ones on the > XXDP RL02 images floating around out there and they all yield the same > results; I suppose it's possible the CPU is failing in such a way as to > make the test reporting incorrect but it seems more likely that (a) I have > an outdated listing or (b) I'm misinterpreting the results somehow. > > Anyone have any experience with this particular diagnostic? > > Thanks, > Josh > The version can normally be identified either by the file name or on the paper tape if you are using a real paper tape. My guess is that the version you are running does not match the PDF. Some of us also have diagnostic listings of various versions, and have some of them on Microfiche. Unfortunately, I do not seem to have a listing for DZQKC (any revision). [It isn't missing - it isn't even listed in the fiche index. :( ] HOWEVER, I *DO* have a *paper* listing of revision E (among others). The code starting at 16002 reads 016002 105737 177564 TSTB @#TPS 016006 100375 BPL .-4 016010 006237 177564 TSTB @#TPS 016014 000001 WAIT ; WAIT FOR FIRST INTERRUPT The routine starts at 015734 and the comment is ";CHECK TTY INTERRUPT" AND, the paper copy has a red stamp indicating that a change may be required for it to operation. LOC FROM TO 2266 200 340 14146 200 340 16164 5227 4737 16166 0 160 160 - 5227 162 - 0 164 - 1375 166 - 207 So, please provide either the complete file name you loaded (if you are loading from RX, hard disk, DECTape, etc., or the complete information on the paper tape and we should at least be able to help you figure out if they match, or not, and whether or not someone has a listing that matches and can tell you what the error might mean, and perhaps provide a scan to you (and bitsavers). JRJ From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 14:38:19 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:38:19 -0700 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: References: <563BA286.4000706@bluewin.ch> <563BEC7A.9070309@bitsavers.org> <563BECD7.9090800@bitsavers.org> <5640A7D6.2010103@heeltoe.com> <5640F683.2080307@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: I wrote: > I might at some point contrive a test fixture to verify > the WD2083U-04 behavior against the Am25LS2513, to determine whether > there are any changes. The Am25LS2513 has no internal state (flip-flops), and most likely even if the WD2083U-04 has differences, it probably doesn't have internal state either. It should therefore be possible to wire it up to be read using an EPROM programmer, e.g., as a 27128. To account for the three-state control, it could be read twice, once with external pullups on the A outputs, and once with external pulldowns. The differences in the read data will show the three-state cases. I'm pretty busy at the moment, but I might have a go at that next week. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 9 14:38:45 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 12:38:45 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <20151109120909.5E8CC18C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5640FE5C.9080808@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56410455.9030001@jwsss.com> On 11/9/2015 12:22 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: jwsmobile Sent: Monday, > November 09, 2015 9:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP 11/03 >> I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get it >> going with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need >> to loop back any of the other pins. Also I will have to figure out >> the serial settings, as Dec was fond of even parity, and so forth. > > As far as my limited PDP-11 knowledge goes, none of them used > handshake. So, Rxd, TxD and GND is all you need to connect. > Also, common (?) is *no* parity. > Thanks, Henk. The main instance I've ever encountered parity other than N is with DEC systems, either VAX or Alphas. And I was not connecting to the consoles, which I am in this case. Just worth asking. Seems to be one of the common fubars with all the "how do I hook up serial" to any system. thanks jim > - Henk > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 9 14:43:41 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 12:43:41 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56410455.9030001@jwsss.com> References: <20151109120909.5E8CC18C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5640FE5C.9080808@jwsss.com> <56410455.9030001@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <9C5BB9AC-4344-4A85-A4E4-A31A855F1F87@nf6x.net> Just in case it helps, a while back I made a little board to adapt DLV11 plugs to 8p8c modular jacks, since I'm rediscovering the utility of adapting everything I own to common serial pinouts. It's not packaged up for public consumption very well yet (including a link in the documentation to a doesn't-exist-yet tag on my blog), but here are the Eagle design files: https://github.com/NF6X/DLV11toRJ45 I should take a picture of the finished item, too. Maybe later today... -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cube1 at charter.net Mon Nov 9 14:46:16 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:46:16 -0600 Subject: What computer is this? In-Reply-To: References: <105871962.1635419.1447090211615.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <105871962.1635419.1447090211615.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56410618.7070102@charter.net> On 11/9/2015 11:53 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Christian Liendo < > christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> I saw this and I wanted to know if anyone could tell me what computer is >> this? >> > > Looks to be a Digital Group system. > > Kyle > Sure looks like Digital Group, though the logo on the keyboards has been overlaid. Looks like two system units and keyboards, and one floppy drive I think on the bottom. (I have one Digital Group system, with a cutout in the front panel made for a custom octal (I think) display, and no keyboard. The system does have a floppy controller and I did get it running, though the video card needs some attention). Sometimes folks took cases from early computers and re-purposed them. A photo of the innards and of at least one board unplugged would be helpful in confirming the identification. JRJ From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Nov 9 14:57:21 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 12:57:21 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 9, 2015, at 12:26 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> * The expansion bus in the IBM PC was the same bus as the System/23. The >> connector was rotated 180* so that some of the less expensive >> cards from the PC couldn't be used in the System/23. The other >> reason for this was since the IBM PC was done on a "shoe string" >> budget, they could take the System/23 cards and only had to do some >> minimal re-layout of the board. > > Did the System/23 also use edge-triggered interrupts, rather than level? Yes. > > Do you have any idea why it was thought a good idea to use > edge-triggered interrupts? I wasn?t really involved in the HW side of things but I think it was because it was ?easier?. I think at least one device just generated a pulse for an interrupt rather than having some sort of latch. TTFN - Guy From tsg at bonedaddy.net Mon Nov 9 15:09:03 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:09:03 -0500 Subject: PDP 8E Panel Paint Chipping - How to seal edges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151109210903.GY20355@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Doug Ingraham [151109 15:00]: > Depends on why it is peeling. My glass panel on the Straight 8 was > peeling. I suspect finger oil was what started it and once it started > peeling there was no good way to stop it. I scraped back to the color > change line and cleaned the glass and repainted. That was around 1985 and > it has stayed put so far. > > Your best bet would be to do something similar. Mask it off and remove the > peeling paint back to the mask line. Prime the surface and then paint with > a color that is close. If it will be exposed to a UV source you might > consider overcoating with a UV block type of clear coat. I think you can > get clear coat in a non gloss if that is what you want. > > You can try nail polish. The acetone in the polish might dissolve the > original paint. If possible try it first in a place that is not visible. > It could make things worse. > > Good luck! > > Doug I could be wrong but I believe it's nail polish *remover* that contains acetone (unless you get one specifically without acetone.) I think nail polish has ethyl acetate? I've seen pinball restorers generally recommend Krylon Triple Thick Clear Glaze and Krylon Acrylic Crystal Clear. (Check out http://www.pinrepair.com/restore/index1.htm#bg) Temperature cycles are particularly hard on pinball glass (hot/cold cycles because the paint and glass expand and contract at different rates.) Pinball glass can get a lot of heating too from the lights. I don't know how much of an issue that is with a straight 8 or 8E but something to keep in mind. Todd From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 15:42:41 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:42:41 -0800 Subject: Deciphering PDP-11/05 ZQKC (Instruction Exerciser) MAINDEC failures... In-Reply-To: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 11/8/2015 11:50 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > > Anyone have any experience with this particular diagnostic? > > > > Thanks, > > Josh > > > > The version can normally be identified either by the file name or on the > paper tape if you are using a real paper tape. My guess is that the > version you are running does not match the PDF. > > Some of us also have diagnostic listings of various versions, and have > some of them on Microfiche. Unfortunately, I do not seem to have a > listing for DZQKC (any revision). [It isn't missing - it isn't even > listed in the fiche index. :( ] > > HOWEVER, I *DO* have a *paper* listing of revision E (among others). > The code starting at 16002 reads > > 016002 105737 177564 TSTB @#TPS > 016006 100375 BPL .-4 > 016010 006237 177564 TSTB @#TPS > 016014 000001 WAIT ; WAIT FOR FIRST INTERRUPT > > The routine starts at 015734 and the comment is ";CHECK TTY INTERRUPT" > > AND, the paper copy has a red stamp indicating that a change may be > required for it to operation. > > LOC FROM TO > 2266 200 340 > 14146 200 340 > 16164 5227 4737 > 16166 0 160 > > 160 - 5227 > 162 - 0 > 164 - 1375 > 166 - 207 > > So, please provide either the complete file name you loaded (if you are > loading from RX, hard disk, DECTape, etc., or the complete information > on the paper tape and we should at least be able to help you figure out > if they match, or not, and whether or not someone has a listing that > matches and can tell you what the error might mean, and perhaps provide > a scan to you (and bitsavers). > Thanks, I should have thought to check the revision codes in the first place. Looks like the Bitsavers docs are from revision C; I've been running the paper-tape version that's on Bitsavers ( http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/pdp11/papertapeimages/20031230/tray4.txt), which is labeled as "maindec-11-dzqkc-e-pb" which looks like it should be Revision E (which is fortunate!). If you do have the ability to scan this, I'd love to see it. Thanks, Josh > > JRJ > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 9 15:48:38 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:48:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP 11/03 Message-ID: <20151109214838.77A2A18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim Stephensn >> "extra wires to bring out clock & .. 110/300 speed change" > I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get it going > with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need to loop back any > of the other pins. Well, without knowing how those extra pins work, it's very hard to say. Given that _apparently_ one could change the baud rate externally (which means that there's something in the cable - or at its other end - to do baud rate selection), I'd _guess_ that a stock cable probably wouldn't work. If you find a set of 11/780 prints, that _might_ include the specialized cable for this beast, but short of that, you're talking signal trace/etc time. > I have several 4 port DLV boards, but want to go with this as a > reference. I paid a bit too much for it because it was "working" Yes, but it doesn't have the cable! Trust me, swapping to a DLV11-J is a fully known, simple, approach - not like trying to work with a serial board with an unknown header pinout! And that 'working' was some decades back! Who knows what the situation is now! > I don't want to screw it up by replacing cards. If all you do is replace the M7940 with an M8043 in the same slot, that shouldn't present a problem (make sure the M8043 is configured properly to be the console, though; it is, however, very well documented). > I know even less about loading the backplane than I do about hooking up > a serial cable. That's OK, I have recently run both M7940's and M8043's in my QBUS systems here; they are a straight replacement (albeit using different cables - a 40-pin Berg/DuPont connector on the former, and 10-pin Berg/DuPont on the second one). > I was hoping to get some idea whether the correct cable might be > available from someone on the list first, and buy it, or better, find > out how to spot them on ebay. I've had a lot of luck with the boards, > but none with finding listings for cabling. Like I say, I expect the cable for the M7940-YA is a special item. As for cables on eBay - fuhgeddabahtit! Well, that's not quite true: seller 'conflandard' has some console cables for sale, but I think only DLV11-J/11-23+ type (they are the same cable, basically - the header pinout on the two cards is the same, the difference is that the stock 11/23+ cable allows baud rate selection on the back panel - but an 11/23+ _will_ work with a stock DLV11-J cable, provided the board is jumpered correctly). I've _never_ seen a DL11 type cable (with the 40-pin Berg/Du Pont connector) for sale on eBay - well, not EIA ones. I think someone had an 20mA one for sale, once. > and trying the 4 port cards. Most of them came from the cheap scrap > guy, so I don't know the state of them as well. I've seen some people > found there were duds in the pile. _Most_ of the cards I bought from him worked (I haven't been able to try them all, e.g. I don't have a working UNIBUS machine yet). The one exception was a DLV11-J on which two of the four serial ports didn't work. Once you have a working machine/board set, it all becomes much easier, of course - you can swap boards around and see which ones are working. (If you'd like, you can send me the DLV11-J, and I'll either send you a known fully-good one, or test yours and send it back, along with the results. I've done this for other people here.) >> I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable diagrams (for >> DB25 connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial cables, >> but not for direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate those >> too). > I'd love that OK, let me go unearth the cable diagrams - or I suppose I could just look at a cable, I have a couple of mostly-finished ones on the workbench at the moment! :-) Noel From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 9 16:05:06 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:05:06 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <5640FE5C.9080808@jwsss.com> References: <20151109120909.5E8CC18C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5640FE5C.9080808@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56411892.4020605@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-09 21:13, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 11/9/2015 4:09 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Jim Stephensn >> >> > I'm looking for a cable or cable pinout to get the console of this >> > 11/03 going. >> > ... >> > It has a M7940-YA DLV11 controller. >> >> Hmm. I can't find anything online about the -YA variant of the DLV11; the >> DLV11 prints (MP00055) don't seem to show it. >> >> I don't know exactly wqhat the "extra wires to bring out clock & .. >> 110/300 >> speed change" entail - and whether you have to have the right jumpers, >> etc in >> the Berg connector to make it run? > the above reference I copied and pasted from Megan Gentry's dec module > guide > http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt > > I don't know what that means either. I doubt the -YA makes any significant difference here. > I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get it going > with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need to loop back any > of the other pins. Also I will have to figure out the serial settings, > as Dec was fond of even parity, and so forth. I figure DEC folks do > that in their sleep, like others do with the systems they work on > frequenly. Normally, you'd call them Tx, Rx and GND, but anyway... No, you do not need to loop back any signals. DEC didn't like to abuse modem control for flow control. Serial settings... Well, that is essentially a software thing. So it depends on the system you have installed. The hardware can of course also do different things, but most of the time it's 8N1, and then software fool around. But anything more modern than mid-70s will most likely be 8-bit clean. > I have several 4 port DLV boards, but want to go with this as a > reference. I paid a bit too much for it because it was "working" and I > don't want to screw it up by replacing cards. I know even less about > loading the backplane than I do about hooking up a serial cable. > > I figure worst case I'll get the ribbon cable and wire the lines to a > DB9 or such and see what happens from there. I was hoping to get some > idea whether the correct cable might be available from someone on the > list first, and buy it, or better, find out how to spot them on ebay. > I've had a lot of luck with the boards, but none with finding listings > for cabling. That would be a DE9. :-) The information about cabling is in pretty much any DEC manual you'll look in. The DLV11 manuals should be on bitsavers even. > Once I have the full system I got working, I have another full system > and a power supply I plan to bring to working, then I'll be brave enough > to start moving things around in the backplane and trying the 4 port > cards. Most of them came from the cheap scrap guy, so I don't know the > state of them as well. I've seen some people found there were duds in > the pile. >> >> Maybe the easier path would be to buy a different DL-type serial line >> board >> (plain DLV11, DLV11-E, DLV11-F, DLV11-J), they're available on eBait >> for not >> much money, usually - unless you already have one on hand, of course. >> (Or did >> you - for authenticity reasons - _have_ to run the -YA card?) >> >> Those are all a known quantity, pinout-wise; the first three all use the >> standard DL11 cable [same as the UNIBUS one, M7800], the last one uses >> the >> smaller header common to the later QBUS machines (e.g. 11/23+, etc). >> >> If you have the Berg female shells and pins (not sure if you do; if not, >> definitely worth getting them, since the cables are basically >> unobtainable, >> but fairly easy to make), but don't know the pinout for them, let me >> know, >> and I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable diagrams >> (for DB25 >> connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial cables, but not >> for >> direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate those too). > I'd love that, thanks Noel. I'm just trying to get as many questions > answered before I start applying power and squinting at LED's on a > serial status box, or on a scope. Note that a -YA normally means it's just a board with a newer revision. It do not normally means any change in functionality, except perhaps some improvement. But in general totally compatible. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 9 16:05:58 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:05:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP 11/03 Message-ID: <20151109220559.0054818C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen > As far as my limited PDP-11 knowledge goes, none of them used > handshake. I'm pretty sure this is true of all the ones that had a hardwired serial console - it's definitely true of the 11/23 and J11 chip ones (/73, etc), and probably the 11/03's too (although it's been 30+ years since I used one of those, so don't hold me to that :-). > So, Rxd, TxD and GND is all you need to connect. Errq, many of them _require_ a loop-back between a pair of pins on the Berg/DuPont connector to operate - this is true of the DL11 (M7800 - UNIBUS), DLV11 (M7940 - QBUS), DLV11-J (M8043) and 11/23+, for instance), and probably the 11/83-84 too. So just connecting up R, X, and Gnd alone won't do it. > Also, common (?) is *no* parity. That, and number of bits, I have no idea about - we always changed things to our local standard (8 bits, no parity, 2 stop bits, IIRC) straight away. Best to check the hardware, and see what it's set to, and either set it to what you're using, or change what you're plugging into it to match. Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 9 16:17:11 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:17:11 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: The seller emailed me some pictures. It does look pretty good, aside from some peeling paint on the front of the floppy drive compartment (I think) sheet metal panel, and the expected yellowing of the keyboard surround plastic.. This model has the keyswitch option, which is the only recognizable variation I identified based on a quick skimming of the manuals the other day. I can't tell whether it has the band printer or dot matrix option, but that should be easy to determine once I open the top cover. I should be seeing it in person in a couple of hours, and I'll try to dig up more details. I've emailed Mike about whether he wishes to claim it, but I haven't heard back yet. But whether I help a buyer out, buy it myself (must resist temptation!) or just take pictures of Mike's new computer to share, it'll be fun. I'll share the seller's pictures later this evening, too, if he doesn't mind. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 9 16:19:28 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:19:28 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <20151109220559.0054818C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151109220559.0054818C0D6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56411BF0.7000903@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-09 23:05, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Henk Gooijen > > > As far as my limited PDP-11 knowledge goes, none of them used > > handshake. > > I'm pretty sure this is true of all the ones that had a hardwired serial > console - it's definitely true of the 11/23 and J11 chip ones (/73, etc), and > probably the 11/03's too (although it's been 30+ years since I used one of > those, so don't hold me to that :-). > > > So, Rxd, TxD and GND is all you need to connect. > > Errq, many of them _require_ a loop-back between a pair of pins on the > Berg/DuPont connector to operate - this is true of the DL11 (M7800 - UNIBUS), > DLV11 (M7940 - QBUS), DLV11-J (M8043) and 11/23+, for instance), and probably > the 11/83-84 too. So just connecting up R, X, and Gnd alone won't do it. Good point. The DL(V)11 is a general serial interface. If it's like the KL-8 cousin, it can use both TTL, EIA and 20mA. Converters for EIA and 20mA is on the board, and you route the TTL signals through one or the other converter, and then use the other end of those converters for connecting to the external device. So, different cables/BERG connectors, gave you different interfaces. Of course, you can reroute the cabling in the BERG connector yourself as well... > > Also, common (?) is *no* parity. > > That, and number of bits, I have no idea about - we always changed things to > our local standard (8 bits, no parity, 2 stop bits, IIRC) straight away. Best > to check the hardware, and see what it's set to, and either set it to what > you're using, or change what you're plugging into it to match. Agree. But in general I would concur with Henk on this. Most everything in DEC used to be 8N1, except for really old stuff, when they were fond of mark parity. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 9 16:44:02 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:44:02 +0000 Subject: Deciphering PDP-11/05 ZQKC (Instruction Exerciser) MAINDEC failures... In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> Message-ID: <564121B2.8010603@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/11/2015 21:42, Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks, I should have thought to check the revision codes in the first > place. Looks like the Bitsavers docs are from revision C; I've been > running the paper-tape version that's on Bitsavers ( > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/pdp11/papertapeimages/20031230/tray4.txt), > which is labeled as "maindec-11-dzqkc-e-pb" which looks like it should be > Revision E (which is fortunate!). Yes, Revision E. XXDP diagnostic files are labelled with the first character denoting the type of system/processor they're supposed to run on, the next pair denotes the device they're to test, the fourth denotes which test it is within a set, and the last two are the version number and patch level. The leading D in the title stands for "document" or "documentation" IIRC and isn't part of the diagnostic name. The specific diagnostic is usually something like (in this case) ZQKCE0.BIN if it's on a disk, but old paper tape titles often don't note a patch level. Z means it should run on any processor QK denotes a CPU diagnostic C means it's the third of a set intended to be run in sequence E is the version "number" (5th version, or 4th revision if you like) Usually DEC changed the version character (always a letter) if things like entry points or error halts or routines moved or changed, and just changed the patch level (always a numeric digit) if things like locations of error halts remained the same. So ZQKCEn will have significantly different code and error halts than ZQKCCn. Interesting that ZQKB is in that tar file along with ZQKC, but ZQKA isn't. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 9 16:57:07 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:57:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP 11/03 Message-ID: <20151109225707.0FA8518C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim Stephensn >> I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable diagrams (for >> DB25 connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial cables, >> but not for direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate those >> too). > I'd love that OK, here are the bits. For the 40-pin Berg/DuPont male header, when looking at the _header_ (on the board) face-on, component-side up, pin A is in the lower left corner; they then follow the 'DEC Alphabet' (What, you don't have this memorized? For working with DEC gear, it's mandatory: 'ABCDEFHJKLMNPRSTUVWXYZ' - G, I, O and Q are dropped), and then repeated, AA-VV. For the 40-pin connector (M7800 DL11, M7940 DLV11): A - Ground B - Ground E - Interlock IN F - EIA Serial Output J - EIA Serial Input M - EIA Interlock OUT So for a 'normal' serial cable (i.e. DTE, male DB25), connect J to pin 3, and F to 2. For a 'null modem' serial cable (i.e. DCE, female DB25), connect J to pin 2, and F to pin 3. Grounds connect to pins 1/7. Pin E must be connected to M. For other signals, consult the DL11 User's Manual (DEC-11-HDLAA-B-D), it has a full table. For the 10-pin header, when looking at the _header_ face-on, component-side up, pin 1 is in the upper right corner; pin 6 is missing (interlock), and 10 is in the lower left. For the 10-pin connector (M8043 DLV11-J, M8189 11/23+, M8190 11/83-84): 1 - Clock input 2 - Ground 3 - Transmit + 4 - Transmit - 5 - Ground 6 - Index 7 - Receive - 8 - Receive + 9 - Ground 10 - +12V It's set up to do either differential, or single-sided; the usual EIA usage is to ground the - side of the received data, so you can run single-sided. So for a cable _with_ null modem (i.e. DCE, to a female DB25), you want to connect: Header DB25 Signal 2 7 Ground 3 3 Transmit Data 7 Loopback IN 8 2 Receive Data 9 Loopback OUT For a normal DTE cable (to male DB25), swap pins 2 and 3 on the DB25 in the list above. I don't have notes for the cables to a DB9, to connect up directly to a PC's serial input port, but if you want, they are pretty easy to put together a list for. (I did make a female-female DB9-DB9 cable, with null modem built in, to test my serial line program, so I have the pinout for those too - just no PDP-11 direct to PC cables; I had a stack of DB25 to DB9 adaptors that I bought on eBait, and I wanted all my PDP-11 cables wired to DB25's, so I'd be able to interconnect -11's easily.) Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 9 17:04:39 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:04:39 +0000 Subject: PDP 8E Panel Paint Chipping - How to seal edges In-Reply-To: <20151109210903.GY20355@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20151109210903.GY20355@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <56412687.8000203@btinternet.com> Hi As you all know all my experience is with new reproductions rather than old panels. I don't expect I have however seen a lot of pictures of peeling panels. There are two possible ways a panel could have been made. 1. Holes first - screen print second 2. Screen Print first holes second. In case 2 above you would be cutting the ink layer and exposing the edge to attack. Forty some odd years ago paints and inks would be have been made differently to today. Peeling would indicate the bond between the ink and the surface to which it was applied has broken down. Transparent film might help but it does nothing for the underlying problem. I think some kind of penetrating liquid that reestablishes the ink/paint to plastic adhesion would work. We have many examples of plastics and polymers degrading with time: Blue rot in DEC Monitors Feet on cases turning to a black goo Bump stops in hard drives So I'm not surprised we get problems with old panels. Rod Smallwood On 09/11/15 21:09, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Doug Ingraham [151109 15:00]: >> Depends on why it is peeling. My glass panel on the Straight 8 was >> peeling. I suspect finger oil was what started it and once it started >> peeling there was no good way to stop it. I scraped back to the color >> change line and cleaned the glass and repainted. That was around 1985 and >> it has stayed put so far. >> >> Your best bet would be to do something similar. Mask it off and remove the >> peeling paint back to the mask line. Prime the surface and then paint with >> a color that is close. If it will be exposed to a UV source you might >> consider overcoating with a UV block type of clear coat. I think you can >> get clear coat in a non gloss if that is what you want. >> >> You can try nail polish. The acetone in the polish might dissolve the >> original paint. If possible try it first in a place that is not visible. >> It could make things worse. >> >> Good luck! >> >> Doug > I could be wrong but I believe it's nail polish *remover* that contains > acetone (unless you get one specifically without acetone.) > > I think nail polish has ethyl acetate? > > I've seen pinball restorers generally recommend Krylon Triple Thick > Clear Glaze and Krylon Acrylic Crystal Clear. (Check out > http://www.pinrepair.com/restore/index1.htm#bg) > > Temperature cycles are particularly hard on pinball glass (hot/cold > cycles because the paint and glass expand and contract at different > rates.) > > Pinball glass can get a lot of heating too from the lights. > > I don't know how much of an issue that is with a straight 8 or 8E but > something to keep in mind. > > Todd From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 9 17:05:55 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:05:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP 11/03 Message-ID: <20151109230555.EF73018C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > I doubt the -YA makes any significant difference here. > ... > Note that a -YA normally means it's just a board with a newer revision. > It do not normally means any change in functionality, except perhaps > some improvement. But in general totally compatible. This might be the exception to that rule! Note the description "extra wires to bring out clock & 110/300 speed change"; if one could in fact change the baud rate _off the card_, there's probably some special magic in the interface (and thus the cable). I suggest consulting 11/780 manuals to see how it was used. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 9 17:11:47 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 15:11:47 -0800 Subject: PDP 8E Panel Paint Chipping - How to seal edges In-Reply-To: <56412687.8000203@btinternet.com> References: <20151109210903.GY20355@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <56412687.8000203@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56412833.5070108@bitsavers.org> On 11/9/15 3:04 PM, rod wrote: > 2. Screen Print first holes second. > That was clearly the case on the panel that I sent scans of to you and I mentioned that they had milled off some of the white lines around the cutouts for the paddle switches. From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 9 17:16:13 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 00:16:13 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <20151109230555.EF73018C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151109230555.EF73018C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5641293D.7030906@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-10 00:05, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > I doubt the -YA makes any significant difference here. > > ... > > Note that a -YA normally means it's just a board with a newer revision. > > It do not normally means any change in functionality, except perhaps > > some improvement. But in general totally compatible. > > This might be the exception to that rule! Note the description "extra wires to > bring out clock & 110/300 speed change"; if one could in fact change the baud > rate _off the card_, there's probably some special magic in the interface (and > thus the cable). I suggest consulting 11/780 manuals to see how it was used. While you could be right, I still doubt the change is significant enough to be incompatible. There could be some enhancement, but I would be pretty sure I could swap the card with a non -YA without any issues. But you're right - the only way to know for sure is to find the documentation. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 17:26:04 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 15:26:04 -0800 Subject: PDP 8E Panel Paint Chipping - How to seal edges In-Reply-To: <56412833.5070108@bitsavers.org> References: <20151109210903.GY20355@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <56412687.8000203@btinternet.com> <56412833.5070108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The cause of my panel chipping is very much finger contact at the edge of the cut panel. There is the decay starting at the edge above all the switches and it is worse above the "deposit" switch. The rest of the panel other than these edges seems properly intact, but I am worried about sealing off the flakey edges so environmental humidity, etc doesn't continue to permeate through the fragmented edges of the paint. I don't understand why the operator felt the need to get their oily paws all over the panel when toggling, the edge of the switch is sufficient, but that is spilled milk. ;) - Ian Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 9, 2015, at 15:11, Al Kossow wrote: > > > >> On 11/9/15 3:04 PM, rod wrote: >> >> 2. Screen Print first holes second. > > That was clearly the case on the panel that I sent scans of to you > and I mentioned that they had milled off some of the white lines around > the cutouts for the paddle switches. > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 9 18:42:07 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:42:07 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <20151109214838.77A2A18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151109214838.77A2A18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56413D5F.60202@jwsss.com> On 11/9/2015 1:48 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jim Stephensn > > >> "extra wires to bring out clock & .. 110/300 speed change" > > > I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get it going > > with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need to loop back any > > of the other pins. > > Well, without knowing how those extra pins work, it's very hard to say. Given > that _apparently_ one could change the baud rate externally (which means that > there's something in the cable - or at its other end - to do baud rate > selection), I'd _guess_ that a stock cable probably wouldn't work. > > If you find a set of 11/780 prints, that _might_ include the specialized > cable for this beast, but short of that, you're talking signal trace/etc time. The 9400-YE has the cables that formerly went to the 11-780. I'm not sure what it does. The line below that I clipped out, about the M7940-YA is for the adjacent card, and has no cable, just the open blue one waiting for an IDE cable to the back for serial connections. > > I have several 4 port DLV boards, but want to go with this as a > > reference. I paid a bit too much for it because it was "working" > > Yes, but it doesn't have the cable! > > Trust me, swapping to a DLV11-J is a fully known, simple, approach - not like > trying to work with a serial board with an unknown header pinout! > > And that 'working' was some decades back! Who knows what the situation is now! > > I don't want to screw it up by replacing cards. > > If all you do is replace the M7940 with an M8043 in the same slot, that > shouldn't present a problem (make sure the M8043 is configured properly to be > the console, though; it is, however, very well documented). > > > I know even less about loading the backplane than I do about hooking up > > a serial cable. The M7940 has no cables, is open. I'm not sure if the M9400 needs to be pulled or not to run the system. > That's OK, I have recently run both M7940's and M8043's in my QBUS systems > here; they are a straight replacement (albeit using different cables - a > 40-pin Berg/DuPont connector on the former, and 10-pin Berg/DuPont on > the second one). > > > > I was hoping to get some idea whether the correct cable might be > > available from someone on the list first, and buy it, or better, find > > out how to spot them on ebay. I've had a lot of luck with the boards, > > but none with finding listings for cabling. > > Like I say, I expect the cable for the M7940-YA is a special item. As for > cables on eBay - fuhgeddabahtit! > > Well, that's not quite true: seller 'conflandard' has some console cables for > sale, but I think only DLV11-J/11-23+ type (they are the same cable, > basically - the header pinout on the two cards is the same, the difference is > that the stock 11/23+ cable allows baud rate selection on the back panel - > but an 11/23+ _will_ work with a stock DLV11-J cable, provided the board is > jumpered correctly). > > I've _never_ seen a DL11 type cable (with the 40-pin Berg/Du Pont connector) > for sale on eBay - well, not EIA ones. I think someone had an 20mA one for > sale, once. > > > > and trying the 4 port cards. Most of them came from the cheap scrap > > guy, so I don't know the state of them as well. I've seen some people > > found there were duds in the pile. > > _Most_ of the cards I bought from him worked (I haven't been able to try them > all, e.g. I don't have a working UNIBUS machine yet). The one exception was a > DLV11-J on which two of the four serial ports didn't work. > > Once you have a working machine/board set, it all becomes much easier, of > course - you can swap boards around and see which ones are working. (If you'd > like, you can send me the DLV11-J, and I'll either send you a known > fully-good one, or test yours and send it back, along with the results. I've > done this for other people here.) Yep > > >> I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable diagrams (for > >> DB25 connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial cables, > >> but not for direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate those > >> too). > > > I'd love that > > OK, let me go unearth the cable diagrams - or I suppose I could just look > at a cable, I have a couple of mostly-finished ones on the workbench at the > moment! :-) > > Noel Thanks Jim From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 9 18:52:24 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:52:24 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <6E9E04CC-F04E-4AEA-ABC9-C6D06BE42E25@nf6x.net> I've seen it, and it is for real. Looks complete except for missing paper rack on the back. Has keyswitch and band printer options. More details and a blog post with pictures to follow once I'm back home in front of a real computer. For now, I've posted a few pictures on my Twitter feed (@nf6x). From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 9 19:06:24 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:06:24 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56413D5F.60202@jwsss.com> References: <20151109214838.77A2A18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56413D5F.60202@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56414310.8070300@jwsss.com> On 11/9/2015 4:42 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 11/9/2015 1:48 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Jim Stephensn >> >> >> "extra wires to bring out clock & .. 110/300 speed change" >> >> > I am mainly asking if I want to hook up a terminal, can I get >> it going >> > with TD, RD and GND (or 2 3 7 on a DB25), or do I need to loop >> back any >> > of the other pins. >> >> Well, without knowing how those extra pins work, it's very hard to >> say. Given >> that _apparently_ one could change the baud rate externally (which >> means that >> there's something in the cable - or at its other end - to do baud rate >> selection), I'd _guess_ that a stock cable probably wouldn't work. >> >> If you find a set of 11/780 prints, that _might_ include the specialized >> cable for this beast, but short of that, you're talking signal >> trace/etc time. > The 9400-YE has the cables that formerly went to the 11-780. I'm not > sure what it does. The line below that I clipped out, about the > M7940-YA is for the adjacent card, and has no cable, just the open > blue one waiting for an IDE cable to the back for serial connections. The M9400 seems to possibly be the Floppy boot and some other logic. I've not pulled either of these since getting the system to examine them. A post by Tony Duell some years back states that the M7940-YA may have both a current loop and RS232 drivers for the port. That would make things complicated, but might explain the puzzling extra bit in the Dec module description about extra wires. I may see if Megan Gentry is still around with any notes on what was put in the Dec modules guide on World.std.com thanks Jim >> > I have several 4 port DLV boards, but want to go with this as a >> > reference. I paid a bit too much for it because it was "working" >> >> Yes, but it doesn't have the cable! >> >> Trust me, swapping to a DLV11-J is a fully known, simple, approach - >> not like >> trying to work with a serial board with an unknown header pinout! >> >> And that 'working' was some decades back! Who knows what the >> situation is now! > >> > I don't want to screw it up by replacing cards. >> >> If all you do is replace the M7940 with an M8043 in the same slot, that >> shouldn't present a problem (make sure the M8043 is configured >> properly to be >> the console, though; it is, however, very well documented). >> >> > I know even less about loading the backplane than I do about >> hooking up >> > a serial cable. > The M7940 has no cables, is open. I'm not sure if the M9400 needs to > be pulled or not to run the system. >> That's OK, I have recently run both M7940's and M8043's in my QBUS >> systems >> here; they are a straight replacement (albeit using different cables - a >> 40-pin Berg/DuPont connector on the former, and 10-pin Berg/DuPont on >> the second one). >> >> >> > I was hoping to get some idea whether the correct cable might be >> > available from someone on the list first, and buy it, or >> better, find >> > out how to spot them on ebay. I've had a lot of luck with the >> boards, >> > but none with finding listings for cabling. >> >> Like I say, I expect the cable for the M7940-YA is a special item. As >> for >> cables on eBay - fuhgeddabahtit! >> >> Well, that's not quite true: seller 'conflandard' has some console >> cables for >> sale, but I think only DLV11-J/11-23+ type (they are the same cable, >> basically - the header pinout on the two cards is the same, the >> difference is >> that the stock 11/23+ cable allows baud rate selection on the back >> panel - >> but an 11/23+ _will_ work with a stock DLV11-J cable, provided the >> board is >> jumpered correctly). >> >> I've _never_ seen a DL11 type cable (with the 40-pin Berg/Du Pont >> connector) >> for sale on eBay - well, not EIA ones. I think someone had an 20mA >> one for >> sale, once. >> >> >> > and trying the 4 port cards. Most of them came from the cheap >> scrap >> > guy, so I don't know the state of them as well. I've seen some >> people >> > found there were duds in the pile. >> >> _Most_ of the cards I bought from him worked (I haven't been able to >> try them >> all, e.g. I don't have a working UNIBUS machine yet). The one >> exception was a >> DLV11-J on which two of the four serial ports didn't work. >> >> Once you have a working machine/board set, it all becomes much >> easier, of >> course - you can swap boards around and see which ones are working. >> (If you'd >> like, you can send me the DLV11-J, and I'll either send you a known >> fully-good one, or test yours and send it back, along with the >> results. I've >> done this for other people here.) > Yep >> >> >> I can supply both null-modem and non-null-modem cable >> diagrams (for >> >> DB25 connectors, already worked out; I have made DB9 serial >> cables, >> >> but not for direct connection to a DLV11, but could generate >> those >> >> too). >> >> > I'd love that >> >> OK, let me go unearth the cable diagrams - or I suppose I could just >> look >> at a cable, I have a couple of mostly-finished ones on the workbench >> at the >> moment! :-) >> >> Noel > Thanks > Jim > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 9 20:20:02 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:20:02 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <6E9E04CC-F04E-4AEA-ABC9-C6D06BE42E25@nf6x.net> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> <6E9E04CC-F04E-4AEA-ABC9-C6D06BE42E25@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <7591E9C3-5EF0-4145-9B74-DFF04E194962@nf6x.net> At long last, here are pictures and details! http://www.nf6x.net/2015/11/ibm-system32-at-the-local-electronics-recycler/ -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From connork at connorsdomain.com Mon Nov 9 20:53:37 2015 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 21:53:37 -0500 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <7591E9C3-5EF0-4145-9B74-DFF04E194962@nf6x.net> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> <6E9E04CC-F04E-4AEA-ABC9-C6D06BE42E25@nf6x.net> <7591E9C3-5EF0-4145-9B74-DFF04E194962@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <56415C31.5070908@connorsdomain.com> Wow that looks to be in fantastic condition considering its around 40 years old now! I really wish the best of luck to whomever gets it. I must say I'm very jealous ;) -Connor K On 11/9/2015 9:20 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > At long last, here are pictures and details! > > http://www.nf6x.net/2015/11/ibm-system32-at-the-local-electronics-recycler/ > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 21:12:21 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:12:21 -0500 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <56415C31.5070908@connorsdomain.com> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> <6E9E04CC-F04E-4AEA-ABC9-C6D06BE42E25@nf6x.net> <7591E9C3-5EF0-4145-9B74-DFF04E194962@nf6x.net> <56415C31.5070908@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: Sorry for being out of touch: in transit from NZ to NY and crazy busy. No news my end but plan to speak to seller and visit system towards end of week. I know at least a couple of you have emailed me privately; sorry for not responding but will update ASAP. I'd *like* to claim it for the Corestore but there are shipping costs and logistics issues. I wonder if IBM disks of this era care about line frequency? Do they have 50hz vs 60hz spindles like RK05s.... Mike On Nov 9, 2015 9:54 PM, "Connor Krukosky" wrote: > Wow that looks to be in fantastic condition considering its around 40 > years old now! > I really wish the best of luck to whomever gets it. > I must say I'm very jealous ;) > > -Connor K > > On 11/9/2015 9:20 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> At long last, here are pictures and details! >> >> >> http://www.nf6x.net/2015/11/ibm-system32-at-the-local-electronics-recycler/ >> >> >> > From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 9 21:26:04 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 19:26:04 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> <6E9E04CC-F04E-4AEA-ABC9-C6D06BE42E25@nf6x.net> <7591E9C3-5EF0-4145-9B74-DFF04E194962@nf6x.net> <56415C31.5070908@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <795F4344-8009-4BF9-B71E-683060CCCCF5@nf6x.net> > On Nov 9, 2015, at 19:12, Mike Ross wrote: > > Sorry for being out of touch: in transit from NZ to NY and crazy busy. No > news my end but plan to speak to seller and visit system towards end of > week. I know at least a couple of you have emailed me privately; sorry for > not responding but will update ASAP. I'd *like* to claim it for the > Corestore but there are shipping costs and logistics issues. Shipping something like that to NZ must cost a fortune! I was surprised how much it cost me to ship a Timex-Sinclair TS-2068 back to its owner in Canada today, and it's just a bit smaller. ;) Anyway, after looking at it, I'd say that it's worthy of your attention if you would like to add another one to your fantastic collection. It looks to me like it'll clean up nicely. Let me know if you would like to meet for a cup of coffee while you're in the area. I might have to be in the office in Irvine, but there's a good chance that I'll be available this week. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 9 21:31:01 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:31:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP 11/03 Message-ID: <20151110033101.DDDA218C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim Stephensn > The 9400-YE has the cables that formerly went to the 11-780. I'm not > sure what it does. ... I'm not sure if the M9400 needs to be pulled or > not to run the system. This one I actually can answer, since I've been looking for /780 documentation: found some, but nothing on the hardware config of the console front end, alas. But I did discover about how the LSI-11 is interfaced to the VAX! The M9400-YE is a standard QBUS card for doing QBUS extension boxes; the QBUS leaves the M9400-YE (at the end of one box) on a couple of cables, which normally go to a M9401 (the sister card to the M9400) in the first slot of the next box. In the /780, the cables from the M9400-YE instead go to a card in the VAX CPU, an M8236 (the CIB - CPU Console Interface Board, I think). That board contains i) a bunch of ROM for the LSI-11, and ii) registers which allow the LSI-11 access to the inside of the /780 CPU - all of which are actually on the LSI-11's QBUS, logically/electrically. So, as to the M9400 - you can pull it, or leave it - there are no active components on it (although it does have termination pull-ups). Do pull the cables, though - they'd be un-terminated antennas... > The M9400 seems to possibly be the Floppy boot and some other logic. There are some versions of the M9400 which contain ROM chips with a bootstrap. The M9400-YE, which you have, does not have these; it only has the headers for the cables, and the pull-up resistors. > The line below that I clipped out, about the M7940-YA is for the > adjacent card, and has no cable, just the open blue one waiting for an > IDE cable to the back for serial connections. Err, it's not an IDE cable, although it is a 40-pin connector; it is used with special round cables, the wiring of which I described in an earlier message. > A post by Tony Duell some years back states that the M7940-YA may have > both a current loop and RS232 drivers for the port. That ... might > explain the puzzling extra bit in the Dec module description about > extra wires. No, the stock M7940 _already_ has support for both EIA and 20mA; see the DLV11 prints (MP-00055), pg. 6; the EIA stuff is in the top right-hand corner, the 20mA in the bottom right-hand. On that same page, lower left, note the baud rate clock generation; note that's entirely set by jumpers, so if there's some off-board way to set it in the M9740-YA, they must have modified this area of the board. Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 21:31:23 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 20:31:23 -0700 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: >> Do you have any idea why it was thought a good idea to use >> edge-triggered interrupts? > > I wasn?t really involved in the HW side of things but I think it was because it was > ?easier?. I think at least one device just generated a pulse for an interrupt rather > than having some sort of latch. I can easily believe that to be true of the System/23. To the best of my knowledge, no add-on boards IBM marketed for the PC worked that way. For the PC, edge-triggered interrupts were a pain in the ass, especially if you wanted to have multiple devices (e.g., COM ports) sharing an interrupt. Oh well. It took a long time, but the PC legacy interrupts are finally all but eliminated from modern PCs, replaced by the much saner APIC. While the PCI bus still used discrete interrupt lines, PCIe now uses bus transactions, which further eliminates legacy restrictions. Of course, for compatibility, the north bridge (sometimes integrated into the CPU chip) still has to provide 8259A interrupt controller functionality and by default map at least some of the modern PCIe interrupt hardware to it, to support legacy software, but most recent PC OSes use the APIC natively even on uniprocessor systems. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Nov 9 22:25:49 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 20:25:49 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <564171CD.90504@shiresoft.com> On 11/9/15 7:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Do you have any idea why it was thought a good idea to use >>> edge-triggered interrupts? >> I wasn?t really involved in the HW side of things but I think it was because it was >> ?easier?. I think at least one device just generated a pulse for an interrupt rather >> than having some sort of latch. > I can easily believe that to be true of the System/23. To the best of > my knowledge, no add-on boards IBM marketed for the PC worked that > way. For the PC, edge-triggered interrupts were a pain in the ass, > especially if you wanted to have multiple devices (e.g., COM ports) > sharing an interrupt. Oh well. Oh, trust me I know about the edge triggered interrupt problem. I was trying to support a "simple" multi-com board for Xenix/286 on the PC-AT and just couldn't make it work properly with edge triggered interrupts. One of the things that the MCA in the PS/2's did was to do away with edge triggered interrupts...they were all level. A number of us demanded that of the new bus. Of course we didn't get the most important thing right (configurability) but we were constrained by being able to take existing designs and just "tweak" them in order to make them MCA boards. > > It took a long time, but the PC legacy interrupts are finally all but > eliminated from modern PCs, replaced by the much saner APIC. While the > PCI bus still used discrete interrupt lines, PCIe now uses bus > transactions, which further eliminates legacy restrictions. Of course, > for compatibility, the north bridge (sometimes integrated into the CPU > chip) still has to provide 8259A interrupt controller functionality > and by default map at least some of the modern PCIe interrupt hardware > to it, to support legacy software, but most recent PC OSes use the > APIC natively even on uniprocessor systems. The 8259 (along with the damned 8254) are still alive and well in current Intel PCHs. The current (Skylake) generation of CPUs and PCHs still have them. :-( Actually as of Windows 8.x the 8254 is *still* used. :-( TTFN - Guy From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 00:54:06 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:54:06 -0700 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <564171CD.90504@shiresoft.com> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> <564171CD.90504@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 9:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > The 8259 (along with the damned 8254) are still alive and well in current > Intel PCHs. As I said, it's still there for compatibility. However AFAIK most OSes use the APIC instead, at least by default. Linux has a kernel command line option that can be used to ignore the APIC and use the 8259As. If you want true SMP for multiple cores, you have to use the APIC, as the 8259A doesn't support that. > Actually as of Windows 8.x the 8254 is *still* used. :-( Windows 8 and later use the LAPIC timer (in the APIC) as well. Linux if configured for a tickless kernel uses the LAPIC and does not use the 8254. Windows XP recognized but did not use the HPET timer, which present in most recent CPUs or bridges, and was intended as an improved replacement for the 8254. Linux normally uses the TSC as its timebase, but Wikipedia says that Linux can use the HPET as a fallback. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Nov 10 01:19:34 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:19:34 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <20151110033101.DDDA218C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151110033101.DDDA218C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56419A86.2000502@jwsss.com> On 11/9/2015 7:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jim Stephensn > > > The 9400-YE has the cables that formerly went to the 11-780. I'm not > > sure what it does. ... I'm not sure if the M9400 needs to be pulled or > > not to run the system. > > This one I actually can answer, since I've been looking for /780 > documentation: found some, but nothing on the hardware config of the console > front end, alas. But I did discover about how the LSI-11 is interfaced to the > VAX! > > The M9400-YE is a standard QBUS card for doing QBUS extension boxes; the QBUS > leaves the M9400-YE (at the end of one box) on a couple of cables, which > normally go to a M9401 (the sister card to the M9400) in the first slot of > the next box. > > In the /780, the cables from the M9400-YE instead go to a card in the VAX > CPU, an M8236 (the CIB - CPU Console Interface Board, I think). That board > contains i) a bunch of ROM for the LSI-11, and ii) registers which allow the > LSI-11 access to the inside of the /780 CPU - all of which are actually on > the LSI-11's QBUS, logically/electrically. > > So, as to the M9400 - you can pull it, or leave it - there are no active > components on it (although it does have termination pull-ups). Do pull the > cables, though - they'd be un-terminated antennas... > > > The M9400 seems to possibly be the Floppy boot and some other logic. > > There are some versions of the M9400 which contain ROM chips with a > bootstrap. The M9400-YE, which you have, does not have these; it only has the > headers for the cables, and the pull-up resistors. > > > > The line below that I clipped out, about the M7940-YA is for the > > adjacent card, and has no cable, just the open blue one waiting for an > > IDE cable to the back for serial connections. Brain fart, I meant IDC ribbon cable. > Err, it's not an IDE cable, although it is a 40-pin connector; it is used > with special round cables, the wiring of which I described in an earlier > message. > > > A post by Tony Duell some years back states that the M7940-YA may have > > both a current loop and RS232 drivers for the port. That ... might > > explain the puzzling extra bit in the Dec module description about > > extra wires. > > No, the stock M7940 _already_ has support for both EIA and 20mA; see the > DLV11 prints (MP-00055), pg. 6; the EIA stuff is in the top right-hand > corner, the 20mA in the bottom right-hand. > > On that same page, lower left, note the baud rate clock generation; note > that's entirely set by jumpers, so if there's some off-board way to set > it in the M9740-YA, they must have modified this area of the board. I'll pull and play in the next few days and post an update on that part. Also will pull the antennas. :-) thanks for the help. I also have a buddy rummaging thru his pile for a sigma type box with a similar configuration which will help as well. His may have what you suggested, the 4 port card and a cable I can copy (or abscond with). One reason I asked here, you answered about finding the cables on ebay. Explains why I've not been able to stumble across any. But the buddy mentioned above did a lot of dec maintenance and put these cables in a pile as he found them.. Problem again the cleaning and searching job right now has not turned up that bin box either. However it will turn up. I'm also watching Mike Ross play with an Altera Spartan board and he is going to try to get the 2030 emulation going, It may motivate me to get off my thumbs and get out mine as well while my buddy searches for cables. Also will order some parts to make the cable off the M7940. Thanks again jim > Noel > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 10 01:52:51 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 07:52:51 +0000 Subject: VT100 - FUN Message-ID: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Going back to the days when I worked in marketing in DEC Park (Then new ,now demolished) I had a VT100 on my desk. We all did, email, word processing graphics and so on. Now there was one interesting but little known VT100 feature. On the back it had two BNC connectors. They were for video in and out. You could sync the VT100 to a feed of mono video and the overlaid picture would appear on the screen and at the video out connector. The only secret was you had to set it for 50Hz . One of my hobbies then (still is now) was Amateur TV (a branch of ham radio.) I had built my own TV camera (we all did). I'd made it small and light to go portable with. So I took it to the office early one morning hid it in my gray wall (VMS manuals) and got it going. I pointed it down the (very) open plan office and went off to my first meeting. It worked, when I got back there was a gaggle of very bemused people looking at the screen. Rod Smallwood From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Nov 10 02:05:11 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:05:11 +0100 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20151110080510.GA9923@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 07:52:51AM +0000, rod wrote: > > Now there was one interesting but little known VT100 feature. On the > back it had two BNC connectors. > They were for video in and out. You could sync the VT100 to a feed > of mono video and the overlaid > picture would appear on the screen and at the video out connector. I actually used this once to debug a broken vt220: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/vt220-125.jpg I could verify that the logic board of the vt220 was ok. /P From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 10 03:14:50 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:14:50 +0000 Subject: PDP 8E Panel Paint Chipping - How to seal edges In-Reply-To: <56412833.5070108@bitsavers.org> References: <20151109210903.GY20355@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <56412687.8000203@btinternet.com> <56412833.5070108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5641B58A.3060106@btinternet.com> Hi Al Thanks for the order - please remind me of your exact requirement Needless to say this is an issue I am all too aware of. This time round as per my updates we are going for a matte finish. My silk screen girls are deciding at which stage to put the matting agent on. They also think it might well improve even the latest inks when it comes to bonding. Screening is quite robust but if you go at it with something sharp, you can scratch it. My my sample (old and damaged) panel has left the us and I'll track it Regards Rod On 09/11/15 23:11, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 11/9/15 3:04 PM, rod wrote: > >> 2. Screen Print first holes second. >> > > That was clearly the case on the panel that I sent scans of to you > and I mentioned that they had milled off some of the white lines around > the cutouts for the paddle switches. > > From gerardcjat at free.fr Tue Nov 10 04:00:12 2015 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:00:12 +0100 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available Message-ID: <6D7347BC9C054756984551BA3F7C81B6@medion> >Help would be nice reverse-engineering the chipset. >I also picked up some of the Russian versions of the >instruction decode chip. Any idea how one can do it ??? --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Nov 10 04:55:12 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:55:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56411892.4020605@update.uu.se> References: <20151109120909.5E8CC18C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5640FE5C.9080808@jwsss.com> <56411892.4020605@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Nov 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Normally, you'd call them Tx, Rx and GND, but anyway... > No, you do not need to loop back any signals. DEC didn't like to abuse modem > control for flow control. What about the connections between the TTL signals and the line drivers/receivers? There are definitley such connections to be made in the Berg connector (like TTL SERIAL DATA IN on connector pin E). For EIA you need to connect pin E with pin M. (See also page 178 in the microcomputer interfaces handbook [1980]). Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Nov 10 04:59:22 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:59:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Nov 2015, rod wrote: > They were for video in and out. You could sync the VT100 to a feed of > mono video and the overlaid picture would appear on the screen and at > the video out connector. AFAIR you couldn't. You had to synchronize the external video source to the VT100. Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 10 06:43:51 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:43:51 +0000 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5641E687.8010906@btinternet.com> Ah yes forgot that bit (thirty plus years is a while back) Tee adapter on VT100 out, cable to cam sync in on cam - cam out to vt100 in. Ill give it a go later- my video titler has an ext sync connector On 10/11/15 10:59, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 10 Nov 2015, rod wrote: >> They were for video in and out. You could sync the VT100 to a feed of >> mono video and the overlaid picture would appear on the screen and at >> the video out connector. > > AFAIR you couldn't. You had to synchronize the external video source > to the VT100. > > Christian From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 10 07:06:47 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:06:47 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <20151109120909.5E8CC18C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5640FE5C.9080808@jwsss.com> <56411892.4020605@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5641EBE7.3080809@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-10 11:55, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 9 Nov 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Normally, you'd call them Tx, Rx and GND, but anyway... >> No, you do not need to loop back any signals. DEC didn't like to abuse >> modem control for flow control. > > What about the connections between the TTL signals and the line > drivers/receivers? There are definitley such connections to be made in > the Berg connector (like TTL SERIAL DATA IN on connector pin E). For EIA > you need to connect pin E with pin M. (See also page 178 in the > microcomputer interfaces handbook [1980]). Yes. The signals exist, because you might be connecting to a modem. But they are not used for flow control. You can control what is output, and you can check what comes in. But the hardware do not act on any of this. If you write your own software then you can of course do things based on those signals... Johnny From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 10 07:56:49 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 08:56:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP 11/03 Message-ID: <20151110135649.04CB418C0EA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim Stephensn > thanks for the help. Eh, always happy to help anyone with PDP-11 stuff. > the buddy mentioned above did a lot of dec maintenance and put these > cables in a pile as he found them.. They're probably worth a good bit now, given how scarce they are! ;-) > Also will order some parts to make the cable off the M7940. You might want to order some 10-pin shells (for the DLV11-J, etc) at the same time, those are really common on later DEC gear - the DLV11/DLV11-J was the transition point. (Actually, although there are only 10 pins, it looks like the connector housings will hold 14-pin shells, so it you want to not have to carefully align the cable before plugging it in, go for 14's. Haven't tried this personally - yet - so take that one with a grain of salt!) I'm off to order some 14-pin shells myself! :-) Noel From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 09:32:09 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:32:09 -0400 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> <6E9E04CC-F04E-4AEA-ABC9-C6D06BE42E25@nf6x.net> <7591E9C3-5EF0-4145-9B74-DFF04E194962@nf6x.net> <56415C31.5070908@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <56420DF9.9020005@gmail.com> On 2015-11-09 11:12 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Sorry for being out of touch: in transit from NZ to NY and crazy busy. No > news my end but plan to speak to seller and visit system towards end of > week. I know at least a couple of you have emailed me privately; sorry for > not responding but will update ASAP. I'd *like* to claim it for the > Corestore but there are shipping costs and logistics issues. > > I wonder if IBM disks of this era care about line frequency? Do they have > 50hz vs 60hz spindles like RK05s.... > > Mike > On Nov 9, 2015 9:54 PM, "Connor Krukosky" wrote: > >> Wow that looks to be in fantastic condition considering its around 40 >> years old now! >> I really wish the best of luck to whomever gets it. >> I must say I'm very jealous ;) >> >> -Connor K >> >> On 11/9/2015 9:20 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >>> At long last, here are pictures and details! >>> >>> >>> http://www.nf6x.net/2015/11/ibm-system32-at-the-local-electronics-recycler/ >>> >>> >>> The diskette drive and the 10MB disk are both driven by AC motors so they would be sensitive to line frequency, however I am sure that IBM did make pulleys for 50Hz. Paul. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 10 09:42:15 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:42:15 +0000 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > > They were for video in and out. You could sync the VT100 to a feed of > mono video and the overlaid > picture would appear on the screen and at the video out connector. Actually, I beleive (confirmed by the VT100 tech manual and schematics) that you have to sync the external video to the VT100 and not the other way round. In other words, you take the signal from the Video Out socket, extract the sync, then use that to sync the video source (camera or whatever) that you feed into the Video In socket > The only secret was you had to set it for 50Hz . It works perfectly well with the VT100 set to 60Hz, provided that is the vertical rate of the external video source. -tony From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 09:55:57 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:55:57 -0400 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <56415C31.5070908@connorsdomain.com> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> <6E9E04CC-F04E-4AEA-ABC9-C6D06BE42E25@nf6x.net> <7591E9C3-5EF0-4145-9B74-DFF04E194962@nf6x.net> <56415C31.5070908@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <5642138D.2060206@gmail.com> On 2015-11-09 10:53 PM, Connor Krukosky wrote: > Wow that looks to be in fantastic condition considering its around 40 > years old now! > I really wish the best of luck to whomever gets it. > I must say I'm very jealous ;) > > -Connor K > > On 11/9/2015 9:20 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> At long last, here are pictures and details! >> >> http://www.nf6x.net/2015/11/ibm-system32-at-the-local-electronics-recycler/ >> >> >> > That big disk is nearly bullet proof, we had one in a store controller where they had a fire in the store and the fire got close enough to it to scorch the paint on the covers, but the drive still worked and all the data was recovered off of it. They do however sometimes squeak a little when they seek. For the burn in on the CRT, only half of the CRT is used so you can rotate it 180 degrees if that has not already been done. That also works for 3741 key to diskette machine, same display unit. The orange plastic box inside the cardboard box contains a head alignment tool for the 33FD diskette unit. One thing that may go wrong with the diskette drives is the lower limit stop on the head carriage may break off and allow it to go below track 0. These drives do not have a track 0 sensor so when they are initialized the drive does about 80 out steps to make sure it is at zero so it hammers on that down stop. and it is plastic so it won't get better with age. On the disk drive there is a head lock back top left should be locked when moving and I believe there is also a spindle lock. Those little cards in the envelopes may have been used for indicator cards or probing. I seem to remember that the service guide sat in the space just above the logic gate, but I don't see it in the pictures. Paul. From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com Tue Nov 10 10:05:06 2015 From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:05:06 -0500 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> I remember at DEC when we all at VT100?s and then the big day came when we could upgrade to the ?New Color? monitors Ah just to think of the orange glow of the words radiating from the screen. Of course you could get green as well. Not a lot of choice compared to today but ground breaking at the time. The company I used to work for still makes brand new VT?s since folks like them so much. VT520 and the DEC style keyboards. Some things never go out of style. sue > On Nov 10, 2015, at 10:42 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> >> They were for video in and out. You could sync the VT100 to a feed of >> mono video and the overlaid >> picture would appear on the screen and at the video out connector. > > Actually, I beleive (confirmed by the VT100 tech manual and schematics) > that you have to sync the external video to the VT100 and not the other > way round. In other words, you take the signal from the Video Out socket, > extract the sync, then use that to sync the video source (camera or whatever) > that you feed into the Video In socket > >> The only secret was you had to set it for 50Hz . > > It works perfectly well with the VT100 set to 60Hz, provided that is the vertical > rate of the external video source. > > -tony Sue Skonetski VP of Customer Advocacy Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 10 10:31:44 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 08:31:44 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <20151110135649.04CB418C0EA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151110135649.04CB418C0EA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6E0945F0-C1CF-44C6-BDF5-33BEBC4194A2@nf6x.net> > On Nov 10, 2015, at 05:56, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > (Actually, although there are only 10 pins, it looks like the connector > housings will hold 14-pin shells, so it you want to not have to carefully > align the cable before plugging it in, go for 14's. Haven't tried this > personally - yet - so take that one with a grain of salt!) That's precisely what I did for my little DLV11 to modular adapter. I'll share a picture later this morning. The DLV11 housing is wide, presumably to allow for wider ribbon cable connectors. I used a 14 pin housing to make it easier to line the connector up in the back of a dark equipment rack. For my discrete wire cables, I've been using 10 pin housings with the keying pin blocked off, but 14 pin housings should also work. I keep a supply of the crimp pins on hand along with 1, 2, 3 and 10 pin housings to cover DLV11 cables plus the common varieties of jumpers I often need to cobble together. I can share part numbers if anybody would like me to. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 10 10:48:35 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 08:48:35 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <5642138D.2060206@gmail.com> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> <6E9E04CC-F04E-4AEA-ABC9-C6D06BE42E25@nf6x.net> <7591E9C3-5EF0-4145-9B74-DFF04E194962@nf6x.net> <56415C31.5070908@connorsdomain.com> <5642138D.2060206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <79D45F88-9973-4C75-B80B-C7C2706FA7AF@nf6x.net> > On Nov 10, 2015, at 07:55, Paul Berger wrote: > > For the burn in on the CRT, only half of the CRT is used so you can rotate it 180 degrees if that has not already been done. That also works for 3741 key to diskette machine, same display unit. I only noticed burn-in on the lower half of the CRT, so this unit probably has another lifetime left in its display. > On the disk drive there is a head lock back top left should be locked when moving and I believe there is also a spindle lock. The head lock lever was "OFF" as I found the unit, so I rotated it to the "ON" position. If there's a spindle lock, it wasn't obvious enough for me to notice it. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 10 11:04:41 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:04:41 +0000 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> Message-ID: <564223A9.9070707@btinternet.com> I remember joining DEC in early October 1973. At the time I was working for a small local company called Newbury Labs. We designed and built what were then called glass teletypes. Twenty four lines of eighty characters, upwards scrolling only,shift registers for memory. TTL everything else. Inside were I think three boards connected by a wiring loom. Edge connectors what edge connectors?. Plus a monitor which was about the same performance as a portable TV and a Cherry Keyboard. They worked and were a good price. A guy I knew at DEC (sadly long since passed away) called me and said DEC were looking for a Sales Engineer to handle volume sales of terminals. Must know about VDU's printing terminals etc. No sales experience needed as training would be given. Within a week I was on the a plane to the US. As the only terminal guy on the course it was arranged for me to go over the terminals product line at Marlboro for product training. I duly turned up and one of the design engineers took me down to a lab like room. There set out in a row were a VT100, a VT52 and an LA36. Out came the inevitable OHP slides (VT100 to begin with) and off he went. I just about fell off my chair. A microprocessor (8085?) driven system with every feature you could imagine. Very very advanced design, high quality board, pull down four pins and you could take the top off and get at everything Plugable keyboard and so on. All this and loads of expansion opportunities. Totally awesome. Of course it blew everything away and became the industry standard. Even in the then small UK market we sold thousands Rod Smallwood On 10/11/15 16:05, Sue Skonetski wrote: > I remember at DEC when we all at VT100?s and then the big day came when we could upgrade to the ?New Color? monitors Ah just to think of the orange glow of the words radiating from the screen. Of course you could get green as well. Not a lot of choice compared to today but ground breaking at the time. > The company I used to work for still makes brand new VT?s since folks like them so much. VT520 and the DEC style keyboards. Some things never go out of style. > > sue > > > >> On Nov 10, 2015, at 10:42 AM, tony duell wrote: >> >>> They were for video in and out. You could sync the VT100 to a feed of >>> mono video and the overlaid >>> picture would appear on the screen and at the video out connector. >> Actually, I beleive (confirmed by the VT100 tech manual and schematics) >> that you have to sync the external video to the VT100 and not the other >> way round. In other words, you take the signal from the Video Out socket, >> extract the sync, then use that to sync the video source (camera or whatever) >> that you feed into the Video In socket >> >>> The only secret was you had to set it for 50Hz . >> It works perfectly well with the VT100 set to 60Hz, provided that is the vertical >> rate of the external video source. >> >> -tony > Sue Skonetski > > VP of Customer Advocacy > Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com > Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 > Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 > > > > > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 10 11:14:26 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:14:26 +0000 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <564225F2.3000809@btinternet.com> See my previous email - I did do it that way round- my memory for detail in the distant past is not as good as it was Rod On 10/11/15 15:42, tony duell wrote: >> They were for video in and out. You could sync the VT100 to a feed of >> mono video and the overlaid >> picture would appear on the screen and at the video out connector. > Actually, I beleive (confirmed by the VT100 tech manual and schematics) > that you have to sync the external video to the VT100 and not the other > way round. In other words, you take the signal from the Video Out socket, > extract the sync, then use that to sync the video source (camera or whatever) > that you feed into the Video In socket > >> The only secret was you had to set it for 50Hz . > It works perfectly well with the VT100 set to 60Hz, provided that is the vertical > rate of the external video source. > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 10 12:00:36 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:00:36 +0000 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: <564223A9.9070707@btinternet.com> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com>, <564223A9.9070707@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > > I remember joining DEC in early October 1973. At the time I was working > for a small local company called Newbury Labs. When I was an undergraduate at Cambridge University (1985-1988) they were still using (somewhat later) Newbury terminals on the mainframe. Due to the metal cases they were often known as 'biscuit tins'. I rescued one when they were being cleared out, I probably still have it somewhere. It has a separate keyboard (just an array of switches) and I think has a VT131-like editing mode (probably totall different commands though). I remember inside there's a monitor PCB on the back of the upper part of the case and one or two boards full of logic. Probably a microprocessor in there, and quite a bit of TTL. I remember some 74181 ALUs (of all things!) -tony From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 10 13:03:52 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:03:52 +0000 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> <564223A9.9070707@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56423F98.4090100@btinternet.com> Now that would be a find. As it so happens one of the guys who worked with me at NL lives locally and we are both on the local council so I see him often. In fact his wife (also councilor) was here yesterday. As he was still there after I left to join DEC he may know more. The keyboards some were not cherry. There was one type that counted through a matrix until it found the connected crosspoint and stopped the count. The count was your key code. The early ones were blue and the later ones brown and gray I think. My wife worked at a local building society and they had some. One day I showed her a label on the back of hers stating 'Tested OK RVS' (needless to say RVS is me) and a date before we even met. Coincidences are great. I'd love to get it running for old times sake. On 10/11/15 18:00, tony duell wrote: >> I remember joining DEC in early October 1973. At the time I was working >> for a small local company called Newbury Labs. > When I was an undergraduate at Cambridge University (1985-1988) they were > still using (somewhat later) Newbury terminals on the mainframe. Due to the > metal cases they were often known as 'biscuit tins'. > > I rescued one when they were being cleared out, I probably still have it somewhere. > It has a separate keyboard (just an array of switches) and I think has a VT131-like > editing mode (probably totall different commands though). I remember inside there's > a monitor PCB on the back of the upper part of the case and one or two boards > full of logic. Probably a microprocessor in there, and quite a bit of TTL. I remember > some 74181 ALUs (of all things!) > > -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 10 13:15:56 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:15:56 -0800 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <6D7347BC9C054756984551BA3F7C81B6@medion> References: <6D7347BC9C054756984551BA3F7C81B6@medion> Message-ID: <5642426C.1030605@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/15 2:00 AM, GerardCJAT wrote: >> Help would be nice reverse-engineering the chipset. > >> I also picked up some of the Russian versions of the >instruction decode chip. > > Any idea how one can do it ??? > The same way the other NMOS devices like the 6502 have been done. Mapping the photos to polygons and tracing out the layout. My problem is I've not done it before. I also have the logic-analyzer-on-a-chip out of the 165xx series shot but not analyzed. http://siliconpr0n.org/archive/doku.php?id=mcmaster:hp:hp-c5_1fi1-0001 From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Nov 10 13:53:30 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:53:30 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/45-55 CPU fan assemblies In-Reply-To: <20151107135018.CCABC18C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151107135018.CCABC18C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2015 2:50 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: PDP-11/45-55 CPU fan assemblies > Hi, all: I recently bought a PDP-11/45 [well, a /55, to be technical; > the /45, /50 and /55 are completely identical except for > i) the memory options installed at purchase, and > ii) the printing on the front console :-], but alas, when I looked > closely, it is missing both upper and lower CPU fan assemblies. > (No doubt, removed to allow cannabilization of the fans, to keep > another machine running.) > (For those who aren't familiar, these are long brackets to which a > number of the usual square fans are bolted; one is placed above, > and one below, the cards in the main pull-out rack of the CPU. The > one on top is hinged along the long edge, so it can be rolled back > out out of the way, for running cables to boards.) To be more exact, the bottom is sort of an open box and has 4 fans. The open side faces towards the card cage, the bottom (outside) has 3 rows of slits, size of the square fans. The top part consist of *two* parts, one is a small box with the downward side open. You would not want to stick your fingers there when the fans run :-/ This side faced the card cage from the top. The outer top has slits over the entire length. The width is the width of the fans. With 5 "lips" another sheet of metal is hinged onto the top fan box. When mounted on the BA11-F box, you can open this sheet of metal and have access to the cables conduit. > So, does anyone i) have a spare set they don't want (I know, I know, > I know, p < .00001, but maybe a miracle will happen); That makes me the "miracle worker" :-) Sending an email off-line. - Henk > Thanks (hopefully :-)! > > Noel From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Nov 10 14:39:58 2015 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:39:58 -0500 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <5642426C.1030605@bitsavers.org> References: <6D7347BC9C054756984551BA3F7C81B6@medion> <5642426C.1030605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5642561E.9090707@heeltoe.com> > > My problem is I've not done it before. I also have the > logic-analyzer-on-a-chip out of the 165xx series shot but > not analyzed. > > http://siliconpr0n.org/archive/doku.php?id=mcmaster:hp:hp-c5_1fi1-0001 > Don't you also need to "delayer" the chip to get all the hidden features? I thought the process of reconstructing the polygons required that each successive layer be exposed. From the "top" I'd think you'd only see a single metal layer. But then again, on a old chip like that there may only *be* one metal layer :-) My primitive understanding is that there will be a "base layer" with junctions and one or more metal layers on top doing the interconnect. (I try and steer clear of physical design, or "PD" as we call it, since it's seriously complex. but also interesting!) -brad From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 15:01:40 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:01:40 -0600 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <5642561E.9090707@heeltoe.com> References: <6D7347BC9C054756984551BA3F7C81B6@medion> <5642426C.1030605@bitsavers.org> <5642561E.9090707@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Nov 10, 2015 2:40 PM, "Brad Parker" wrote: > > > Don't you also need to "delayer" the chip to get all the hidden features? I thought the process of reconstructing the polygons required that each successive layer be exposed. From the "top" I'd think you'd only see a single metal layer. But then again, on a old chip like that there may only *be* one metal layer :-) > > My primitive understanding is that there will be a "base layer" with junctions and one or more metal layers on top doing the interconnect. > > (I try and steer clear of physical design, or "PD" as we call it, since it's seriously complex. but also interesting!) > As a physical layout guy, you're absolutely correct. Some ICs can have tens of metal layers, and in order to have better yield, planarization is used, requiring fairly uniform metal density across all layers. This means adding metal fill where necessary, so that makes visualizing ICs much more difficult. Modern digital ICs typically rely on standard cell libraries, so that can make identification a little easier. Once you've identified one NAND gate or inverter, for instance, you've identified them all. Not so with the early designs that were more discrete, in that respect. These folks have done a lot of work related to this field: http://www.visual6502.org Kyle From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 10 16:10:02 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:10:02 -0600 Subject: MAINDEC-11-DZQKC-E-D listing posted (Re: Deciphering PDP-11/05 ZQKC (Instruction Exerciser) MAINDEC failures...) In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> Message-ID: <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> On 11/9/2015 3:42 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> On 11/8/2015 11:50 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> >>> Anyone have any experience with this particular diagnostic? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Josh >>> >> >> The version can normally be identified either by the file name or on the >> paper tape if you are using a real paper tape. My guess is that the >> version you are running does not match the PDF. >> >> Some of us also have diagnostic listings of various versions, and have >> some of them on Microfiche. Unfortunately, I do not seem to have a >> listing for DZQKC (any revision). [It isn't missing - it isn't even >> listed in the fiche index. :( ] >> >> HOWEVER, I *DO* have a *paper* listing of revision E (among others). >> The code starting at 16002 reads >> >> 016002 105737 177564 TSTB @#TPS >> 016006 100375 BPL .-4 >> 016010 006237 177564 TSTB @#TPS >> 016014 000001 WAIT ; WAIT FOR FIRST INTERRUPT >> >> The routine starts at 015734 and the comment is ";CHECK TTY INTERRUPT" >> >> AND, the paper copy has a red stamp indicating that a change may be >> required for it to operation. >> >> LOC FROM TO >> 2266 200 340 >> 14146 200 340 >> 16164 5227 4737 >> 16166 0 160 >> >> 160 - 5227 >> 162 - 0 >> 164 - 1375 >> 166 - 207 >> >> So, please provide either the complete file name you loaded (if you are >> loading from RX, hard disk, DECTape, etc., or the complete information >> on the paper tape and we should at least be able to help you figure out >> if they match, or not, and whether or not someone has a listing that >> matches and can tell you what the error might mean, and perhaps provide >> a scan to you (and bitsavers). >> > > Thanks, I should have thought to check the revision codes in the first > place. Looks like the Bitsavers docs are from revision C; I've been > running the paper-tape version that's on Bitsavers ( > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/pdp11/papertapeimages/20031230/tray4.txt), > which is labeled as "maindec-11-dzqkc-e-pb" which looks like it should be > Revision E (which is fortunate!). > > If you do have the ability to scan this, I'd love to see it. > > Thanks, > Josh > > > >> >> JRJ >> >> >> > The diagnostic listing is now available in my new bitsavers-contrib folder on Google drive: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU&usp=sharing This is the only document in there right now, and you will find it in the same path that the other occupies on bitsavers, i.e. in folder ./pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/diag_listings A PDF is there as well as a zip file containing the original .tif files as Al Kossow prefers for submissions. (Al: Hint, Hint ;) ). JRJ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 10 16:23:07 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:23:07 -0000 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: <564223A9.9070707@btinternet.com> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> <564223A9.9070707@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <0bf901d11c06$5fd2d850$1f7888f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of rod > Sent: 10 November 2015 17:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VT100 - FUN > > I remember joining DEC in early October 1973. At the time I was working for a > small local company called Newbury Labs. > We designed and built what were then called glass teletypes. Twenty four lines > of eighty characters, upwards scrolling only,shift registers for memory. TTL > everything else. > When I was at school I seem to recall that the glass teletypes used by my local polytechnic on their DECSYSTEM20 were Newbury Labs. They were a great step up from the Teletype at the time. I didn't see a VT1xx until I got to my M.Sc at Manchester (1984-1985) where I had a VT125 connected to a 780. I have a VT101 and VT102, but would love to get a 125 just for old times sake. Regards Rob From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 16:50:30 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:50:30 -0700 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <5642561E.9090707@heeltoe.com> References: <6D7347BC9C054756984551BA3F7C81B6@medion> <5642426C.1030605@bitsavers.org> <5642561E.9090707@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > Don't you also need to "delayer" the chip to get all the hidden features? > I thought the process of reconstructing the polygons required that each > successive layer be exposed. From the "top" I'd think you'd only see a > single metal layer. But then again, on a old chip like that there may only > *be* one metal layer :-) For late 1970s coarse geometry NMOS with only one metal layer, it's usually possible with only a single photomicrograph, especially if there isn't a thick passivation layer. That's how the 6502 was originally reverse-engineered. As the processes became more complex and added more metal layers, reverse-engineering has increasingly required delayering. The use of depletion mode nFETs for loads does make it a little more difficult, as you can't see the difference in the diffusion, but it's usually possible to infer which nFETs are the loads. The LSI-11, WD16, and WD9000 chipsets are three-supply-voltage NMOS, so they shouldn't even have any depletion loads to worry about. Depletion-load NMOS eliminated the +12V requirement, so was usually only used for single-supply 5V parts, Mostek pioneered depletion-load, and one of the earliest commercial uses was the Zilog Z80 CPU, which was originally fabbed by Mostek both under contract to Zilog and as Mostek's second-source. Usually along with depletion-load, an on-chip substrate bias generator eliminates the Vbb requirement, which was usually -5V. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 10 16:56:39 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:56:39 -0800 Subject: MAINDEC-11-DZQKC-E-D listing posted (Re: Deciphering PDP-11/05 ZQKC (Instruction Exerciser) MAINDEC failures...) In-Reply-To: <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> Message-ID: <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/15 2:10 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > A PDF is there as well as a zip file containing the original .tif files > as Al Kossow prefers for submissions. (Al: Hint, Hint ;) ). > Thanks! Just send me an email as you add things, and I will pick them up. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Nov 10 17:47:53 2015 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:47:53 -0500 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: References: <6D7347BC9C054756984551BA3F7C81B6@medion> <5642426C.1030605@bitsavers.org> <5642561E.9090707@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <56428229.7020009@heeltoe.com> On 11/10/15 5:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Brad Parker wrote: >> Don't you also need to "delayer" the chip to get all the hidden features? .... > For late 1970s coarse geometry NMOS with only one metal layer, it's > usually possible with only a single photomicrograph, especially if > there isn't a thick passivation layer. That's how the 6502 was > ... Wow. That was really interesting and helpful (thanks to both of you - Kyle and Eric). So, since it appears to be NMOS with a single metal layer, it seems like one could feed the jpeg into a program and find all the polygons. Interesting. Now I'm curious how the 6502 guys did it :-) I understand why it would be interesting to figure out the WD pascal engine, but what is special about the HP 165xx chip which Al referenced? (I've sort of given up on LA's, at least once which are not embedded in the cpu :-) -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Nov 10 17:56:37 2015 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:56:37 -0500 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: References: <6D7347BC9C054756984551BA3F7C81B6@medion> <5642426C.1030605@bitsavers.org> <5642561E.9090707@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <56428435.2010805@heeltoe.com> fyi: from the 6502 faq: /* How do you turn bitmaps into polygons?/ We draw them in our custom Python app. We spent about two months looking at automatic vectorization and using the bitmaps to create polygon fragments, but neither of these was better than just sitting down and clicking out the polygons. It's almost essential to have our own vector drawing app, so we can control snapping, do fancy copy-paste, get good vector data, and greatly speed up the work. /* How did automatic vectorization fail?/ It was more work to clean up the results of automatic vectorization than to do clean work in the first place. Damage, dirt, and ambiguous or falsely detected features in the chip die shots create problems. We also rely on finding and modelingburied contacts like they would appear in the original fabrication masks, not like they appear in silicon. This is very difficult, if not impossible, to do automatically. I'm not surprised by this. So in the end, a human brain figured out where the polygons are. It might be a fun "internet distributed" project to farm out sections to lots of people and then assemble the results... -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 10 18:07:35 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:07:35 -0800 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <56428229.7020009@heeltoe.com> References: <6D7347BC9C054756984551BA3F7C81B6@medion> <5642426C.1030605@bitsavers.org> <5642561E.9090707@heeltoe.com> <56428229.7020009@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <564286C7.4010808@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/15 3:47 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > but what is special about the HP 165xx chip which Al referenced? Variations of that ASIC are the core of HP's logic logic analyzers for a LONG time (at least while they were using 68K processors). One of my back burner projects has been to understand how they worked as an embedded system. Sadly, I've heard the person who designed it passed away this past year. One of the things that made HP magical in the 70's and 80's was how advanced their ASIC capabilites were compared to the competition. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 10 18:23:27 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:23:27 -0800 Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <56428435.2010805@heeltoe.com> References: <6D7347BC9C054756984551BA3F7C81B6@medion> <5642426C.1030605@bitsavers.org> <5642561E.9090707@heeltoe.com> <56428435.2010805@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <56428A7F.6050605@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/15 3:56 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > fyi: from the 6502 faq: > > /* How do you turn bitmaps into polygons?/ > We draw them in our custom Python app. We spent about two months looking at automatic vectorization and using the bitmaps to create polygon fragments, but neither of these was better than just > sitting down and clicking out the polygons. It's almost essential to have our own vector drawing app, so we can control snapping, do fancy copy-paste, get good vector data, and greatly speed up the > work. > > /* How did automatic vectorization fail?/ > It was more work to clean up the results of automatic vectorization than to do clean work in the first place. Damage, dirt, and ambiguous or falsely detected features in the chip die shots create > problems. We also rely on finding and modelingburied contacts like they would appear in the original fabrication masks, not like they appear in silicon. This is > very difficult, if not impossible, to do automatically. > > I'm not surprised by this. So in the end, a human brain figured out where the polygons are. It might be a fun "internet distributed" project to farm out sections to lots of people and then assemble > the results... > > -brad > you may want to check out https://siliconpr0n.org/archive/doku.php?id=motorola:68000 From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 10 18:53:05 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:53:05 -0500 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: <0bf901d11c06$5fd2d850$1f7888f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> <564223A9.9070707@btinternet.com> <0bf901d11c06$5fd2d850$1f7888f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <388E5ECA-0E87-47CF-B020-9A83DB7BD9BD@comcast.net> > On Nov 10, 2015, at 5:23 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of rod >> Sent: 10 November 2015 17:05 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: VT100 - FUN >> >> I remember joining DEC in early October 1973. At the time I was working for a >> small local company called Newbury Labs. >> We designed and built what were then called glass teletypes. Twenty four lines >> of eighty characters, upwards scrolling only,shift registers for memory. TTL >> everything else. >> > > > When I was at school I seem to recall that the glass teletypes used by my local polytechnic on their DECSYSTEM20 were Newbury Labs. They were a great step up from the Teletype at the time. I didn't see a VT1xx until I got to my M.Sc at Manchester (1984-1985) where I had a VT125 connected to a 780. I have a VT101 and VT102, but would love to get a 125 just for old times sake. It's interesting that people were building glass TTYs when DEC was well beyond them with the VT05 by that time or earlier, never mind the VT52. paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 10 19:43:03 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 01:43:03 +0000 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: <388E5ECA-0E87-47CF-B020-9A83DB7BD9BD@comcast.net> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> <564223A9.9070707@btinternet.com> <0bf901d11c06$5fd2d850$1f7888f0$@ntlworld.com> <388E5ECA-0E87-47CF-B020-9A83DB7BD9BD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56429D27.9030702@btinternet.com> Hi I always considered the VT05 to be art or sculpture. However DEC never produced anything else in the same style. In the time period we are considering here (1970's) the market (that is to say the UK) was for time sharing terminals. You dialed in with your acoustic coupler and blazed away at 300baud. Rod Panelman On 11/11/15 00:53, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Nov 10, 2015, at 5:23 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of rod >>> Sent: 10 November 2015 17:05 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: VT100 - FUN >>> >>> I remember joining DEC in early October 1973. At the time I was working for a >>> small local company called Newbury Labs. >>> We designed and built what were then called glass teletypes. Twenty four lines >>> of eighty characters, upwards scrolling only,shift registers for memory. TTL >>> everything else. >>> >> >> When I was at school I seem to recall that the glass teletypes used by my local polytechnic on their DECSYSTEM20 were Newbury Labs. They were a great step up from the Teletype at the time. I didn't see a VT1xx until I got to my M.Sc at Manchester (1984-1985) where I had a VT125 connected to a 780. I have a VT101 and VT102, but would love to get a 125 just for old times sake. > It's interesting that people were building glass TTYs when DEC was well beyond them with the VT05 by that time or earlier, never mind the VT52. > > paul > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Nov 10 20:22:14 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:22:14 -0500 Subject: MAINDEC-11-DZQKC-E-D listing posted (Re: Deciphering PDP-11/05 ZQKC (Instruction Exerciser) MAINDEC failures...) In-Reply-To: <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5642A656.1020508@compsys.to> >Al Kossow wrote: > >On 11/10/15 2:10 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> A PDF is there as well as a zip file containing the original .tif files >> as Al Kossow prefers for submissions. (Al: Hint, Hint ;) ). > > Thanks! Just send me an email as you add things, and I will pick them up. I also notice that the /bits/ files do not seem to have had the same attention as the /pdf/ side of the fence. In particular, as an RT-11 addict, there are many additional image files available on the internet which are not reflected at bitsavers and its mirrors. While I agree that you may be concerned that some at those image files are for versions of RT-11 after V05.03, at least a few are not and at least those had been explicitly allowed even by Mentec. Would you find it appropriate to host these files at bitsavers and its mirrors? In addition, a few internet sites have also had a number of files for versions of RT-11 after V05.03 for over 5 years now. Since bitsavers and its mirrors are probably better known than most other sites, would you also find it appropriate to host these as well? Do you also have an incoming directory which will accept image files? You can then move them to the correct sub-directory and maybe even rename them? Some of the RT-11 image files have DEC ( owner / volumeID ) values which are the equivalent of the names given to PDF files for DEC manuals. Please advise whether or not you wish to have copies of these RT-11 DEC image files. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Nov 10 21:21:26 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:21:26 -0500 Subject: Keshe Plasma Energy (MAGRAV) Blueprints Available For Download In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5642B436.6040701@compsys.to> This hardware needs to be tested, but I don't have anything like the hardware or the equipment to build and test it. > From: "Starship Earth: The Big Picture" > > Date: Thursday, 5 November, 2015 6:48 PM > To: Steven Goldhar > > Subject: [New post] Keshe Plasma Energy (MAGRAV) Blueprints Available > For Download > > Starship Earth: The Big Picture posted: " Keshe Plasma Energy (MAGRAV) > Blueprints Available For Download Please go to Deus Nexus for the > details..." > > > New post on Starship Earth: The Big Picture > > > > > > > Keshe Plasma Energy (MAGRAV) Blueprints Available For Download > > > by Starship Earth: The Big Picture > > > > KesheFoundation > > > Keshe Plasma Energy (MAGRAV) Blueprints Available For Download > > Please go to Deus Nexus for the details... > > > Starship Earth: The Big Picture > | November 5, > 2015 at 4:48 pm | Tags: blueprints > , > distribution > , > download > , > electro-gravitics > , > free energy > , > global > , > Keshe foundation > , > magrav > , > Mehran T Keshe > , > technology > > | Categories: Current Updates > > | URL: http://wp.me/p5mdeR-7pH > > Comment > > See all comments > > > > Unsubscribe > > to no longer receive posts from Starship Earth: The Big Picture. > Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions > . > > > Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: > http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/2015/11/05/keshe-plasma-energy-magrav-blueprints-available-for-download/ > > > > Evidently, this possible technology is so far beyond any current concepts in quantum physics that some individuals refuse to consider that it might work. Just in case anyone is interested and might be able to build, test and evaluate even a small model, I though it might be reasonable to distribute the information more widely. Since a single successful, or even partially successful, test that produces at least some power or energy over a period that would exceed any possible battery capability would point to concepts which can't presently be explained, it seems to me to be worth while to build one. Of course, that is easy for me to say since I will not be spending the time and effort. But please let all of us know the details if anyone tries! Jerome Fine From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 21:42:00 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:42:00 -0800 Subject: MAINDEC-11-DZQKC-E-D listing posted (Re: Deciphering PDP-11/05 ZQKC (Instruction Exerciser) MAINDEC failures...) In-Reply-To: <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> Message-ID: <5642B908.1090803@gmail.com> On 11/10/15 2:10 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 11/9/2015 3:42 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >>> On 11/8/2015 11:50 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone have any experience with this particular diagnostic? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Josh >>>> >>> The version can normally be identified either by the file name or on the >>> paper tape if you are using a real paper tape. My guess is that the >>> version you are running does not match the PDF. >>> >>> Some of us also have diagnostic listings of various versions, and have >>> some of them on Microfiche. Unfortunately, I do not seem to have a >>> listing for DZQKC (any revision). [It isn't missing - it isn't even >>> listed in the fiche index. :( ] >>> >>> HOWEVER, I *DO* have a *paper* listing of revision E (among others). >>> The code starting at 16002 reads >>> >>> 016002 105737 177564 TSTB @#TPS >>> 016006 100375 BPL .-4 >>> 016010 006237 177564 TSTB @#TPS >>> 016014 000001 WAIT ; WAIT FOR FIRST INTERRUPT >>> >>> The routine starts at 015734 and the comment is ";CHECK TTY INTERRUPT" >>> >>> AND, the paper copy has a red stamp indicating that a change may be >>> required for it to operation. >>> >>> LOC FROM TO >>> 2266 200 340 >>> 14146 200 340 >>> 16164 5227 4737 >>> 16166 0 160 >>> >>> 160 - 5227 >>> 162 - 0 >>> 164 - 1375 >>> 166 - 207 >>> >>> So, please provide either the complete file name you loaded (if you are >>> loading from RX, hard disk, DECTape, etc., or the complete information >>> on the paper tape and we should at least be able to help you figure out >>> if they match, or not, and whether or not someone has a listing that >>> matches and can tell you what the error might mean, and perhaps provide >>> a scan to you (and bitsavers). >>> >> Thanks, I should have thought to check the revision codes in the first >> place. Looks like the Bitsavers docs are from revision C; I've been >> running the paper-tape version that's on Bitsavers ( >> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/pdp11/papertapeimages/20031230/tray4.txt), >> which is labeled as "maindec-11-dzqkc-e-pb" which looks like it should be >> Revision E (which is fortunate!). >> >> If you do have the ability to scan this, I'd love to see it. >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> >> >>> JRJ >>> >>> >>> > The diagnostic listing is now available in my new bitsavers-contrib > folder on Google drive: > > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU&usp=sharing > > This is the only document in there right now, and you will find it in > the same path that the other occupies on bitsavers, i.e. in folder > ./pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/diag_listings > > A PDF is there as well as a zip file containing the original .tif files > as Al Kossow prefers for submissions. (Al: Hint, Hint ;) ). > > JRJ > > > Thanks a ton for taking the time to make this available. Time for some debugging! - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 22:21:57 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:21:57 -0800 Subject: MAINDEC-11-DZQKC-E-D listing posted (Re: Deciphering PDP-11/05 ZQKC (Instruction Exerciser) MAINDEC failures...) In-Reply-To: <5642B908.1090803@gmail.com> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <5642B908.1090803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5642C265.40700@gmail.com> On 11/10/15 7:42 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 11/10/15 2:10 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> JRJ >>>> >>>> >>>> >> The diagnostic listing is now available in my new bitsavers-contrib >> folder on Google drive: >> >> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU&usp=sharing >> >> >> This is the only document in there right now, and you will find it in >> the same path that the other occupies on bitsavers, i.e. in folder >> ./pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/diag_listings >> >> A PDF is there as well as a zip file containing the original .tif files >> as Al Kossow prefers for submissions. (Al: Hint, Hint ;) ). >> >> JRJ >> >> >> > > Thanks a ton for taking the time to make this available. Time for > some debugging! > > - Josh > Well, that was anticlimactic. From looking at the listing it seemed fairly likely that the issue was with SLU interrupts; I swapped in an SLU from my 11/34 and the diags passed. A closer examination of the original SLU (an M7800) reveals that I'd jumpered it for a vector of 30, not 60. *facepalm*. (And yes: for the record, I disabled the onboard SLU on the 11/05, since it's (a) limited to 2400bps and (b) requires additional hardware to provide RS-232 signal levels. Oh, and (c) I somehow have a metric ton of M7800s lying around...) So, that was easy. Maybe next time I'll be more careful soldering in jumpers :). Thanks again for the help, Josh From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 00:33:02 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:33:02 -0600 Subject: Keshe Plasma Energy (MAGRAV) Blueprints Available For Download In-Reply-To: <5642B436.6040701@compsys.to> References: <5642B436.6040701@compsys.to> Message-ID: Sorry, but this is total bunkum. TNSTAAFL On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 9:21 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > This hardware needs to be tested, but I don't have anything like > the hardware or the equipment to build and test it. > > From: "Starship Earth: The Big Picture" > donotreply at wordpress.com>> >> Date: Thursday, 5 November, 2015 6:48 PM >> To: Steven Goldhar > >> Subject: [New post] Keshe Plasma Energy (MAGRAV) Blueprints Available For >> Download >> >> Starship Earth: The Big Picture posted: " Keshe Plasma Energy (MAGRAV) >> Blueprints Available For Download Please go to Deus Nexus for the >> details..." >> >> >> New post on Starship Earth: The Big Picture >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Keshe Plasma Energy (MAGRAV) Blueprints Available For Download >> < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/2015/11/05/keshe-plasma-energy-magrav-blueprints-available-for-download/ >> > >> >> by Starship Earth: The Big Picture < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?author=1> >> >> >> KesheFoundation >> >> >> Keshe Plasma Energy (MAGRAV) Blueprints Available For Download >> >> Please go to Deus Nexus for the details... < >> https://deusnexus.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/plasma-energy-download/> >> >> Starship Earth: The Big Picture < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?author=1> | November 5, 2015 >> at 4:48 pm | Tags: blueprints < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=blueprints>, >> distribution < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=distribution>, >> download < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=download>, >> electro-gravitics < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=electro-gravitics>, >> free energy < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=free-energy>, >> global < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=global>, >> Keshe foundation < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=keshe-foundation>, >> magrav < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=magrav>, >> Mehran T Keshe < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=mehran-t-keshe>, >> technology < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=technology> >> | Categories: Current Updates < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/?taxonomy=category&term=current-updates> >> | URL: http://wp.me/p5mdeR-7pH >> >> Comment < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/2015/11/05/keshe-plasma-energy-magrav-blueprints-available-for-download/#respond> >> See all comments < >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/2015/11/05/keshe-plasma-energy-magrav-blueprints-available-for-download/#comments> >> >> >> Unsubscribe < >> https://subscribe.wordpress.com/?key=ae58620dacfaf1ada77868c6ca1ae577&email=moegoldhar%40rogers.com&b=LseOXy%5Be8dXI2kv%2Fgh1hmlMHutrI6KS9itB7%5BhBn%2FfcBLKksw%26F> >> to no longer receive posts from Starship Earth: The Big Picture. >> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions < >> https://subscribe.wordpress.com/?key=ae58620dacfaf1ada77868c6ca1ae577&email=moegoldhar%40rogers.com>. >> >> >> Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >> >> http://www.starshipearththebigpicture.com/2015/11/05/keshe-plasma-energy-magrav-blueprints-available-for-download/ >> >> >> >> > Evidently, this possible technology is so far beyond any > current concepts in quantum physics that some individuals > refuse to consider that it might work. > > Just in case anyone is interested and might be able to build, > test and evaluate even a small model, I though it might be > reasonable to distribute the information more widely. > > Since a single successful, or even partially successful, > test that produces at least some power or energy over > a period that would exceed any possible battery capability > would point to concepts which can't presently be explained, > it seems to me to be worth while to build one. Of course, > that is easy for me to say since I will not be spending the time > and effort. > > But please let all of us know the details if anyone tries! > > Jerome Fine > From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 07:14:46 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:14:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available In-Reply-To: <56428229.7020009@heeltoe.com> References: <6D7347BC9C054756984551BA3F7C81B6@medion> <5642426C.1030605@bitsavers.org> <5642561E.9090707@heeltoe.com> <56428229.7020009@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Nov 2015, Brad Parker wrote: > So, since it appears to be NMOS with a single metal layer, it seems like one > could feed the jpeg into a program and find all the polygons. Given a vector image file with shapes properly assigned to layers, an LVS tool can extract a netlist. In a one-step previous life, I spent several years on a team developing netlist extraction for an internal tool at my employers. -- From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 11 08:54:38 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:54:38 -0500 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: <56429D27.9030702@btinternet.com> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> <564223A9.9070707@btinternet.com> <0bf901d11c06$5fd2d850$1f7888f0$@ntlworld.com> <388E5ECA-0E87-47CF-B020-9A83DB7BD9BD@comcast.net> <56429D27.9030702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <0F857374-A595-4BAF-9E87-6036EF321B19@comcast.net> > On Nov 10, 2015, at 8:43 PM, rod wrote: > > Hi > I always considered the VT05 to be art or sculpture. > However DEC never produced anything else in the same style. They did, actually, but it was a rather obscure product: the VT20. That's a local editing terminal for Typeset-11, for newspaper production. It consisted of two VT05 enclosures connected to an 11/05 controller. The whole thing was connected to the main system (an 11/45 RSX11-D system) via a serial line. I never saw one in action but there was one stored in the corner of the Typeset-11 development lab; by the time I got there (1978), it had been superseded by the VT71/t. Same sort of idea, but a custom enclosure, and the controller was an LSI-11 inside that enclosure, responsible for just one display rather than two. The display controller was some sort of display list engine, vaguely like the GT40 but text only. The host would send the entire file to the terminal, and receive the updated file in response after the operator finished editing it. Imagine a VTEDIT or Emacs-like editor, including programmable macro keys ("user defined keys") on your desktop. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 14:08:02 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:08:02 -0500 Subject: Looking for top door, VAX 4000 Message-ID: Looking for top door for my VAX 4000-200. Any door from a 4000 of similar chassis class should work. Here is the URL of machine missing door: http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/VAX_4000-200/VAX_4000-200.jpg Location Landenberg, PA. Please contact me though vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm to ensure delivery of your message. Location Landenberg, PA -- Bill From iamvirtual at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 18:49:35 2015 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:49:35 -0700 Subject: MAINDEC-11-DZQKC-E-D listing posted (Re: Deciphering PDP-11/05 ZQKC (Instruction Exerciser) MAINDEC failures...) In-Reply-To: <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I have an original papertape distribution for a DEC 11/20 circa 1970. I have dumped all of the media and the paper tapes can be found at: http://iamvirtual.ca/collection/systems/mediadoc/mediadoc.html#papertape --barrym On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/10/15 2:10 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > A PDF is there as well as a zip file containing the original .tif files >> as Al Kossow prefers for submissions. (Al: Hint, Hint ;) ). >> >> > Thanks! Just send me an email as you add things, and I will pick them up. > > > > From gerardcjat at free.fr Tue Nov 10 03:40:16 2015 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:40:16 +0100 Subject: scrounging at recyclers Message-ID: +2 with Marc !!!! HP Boards, please, HP boards ;-) --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 12:57:18 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:57:18 -0600 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser Message-ID: I recently got a NeXTstation Turbo running NeXTSTEP 3.3 (with patch 2 applied). It's a fresh install, and I have a complete set of floppies and disks, including the development CD. The system seems to be working great! I've burned a CD with OmniWeb 2.7 beta 3 and untar'ed it on the system. Unfortunately, when I try to open an HTML document, it briefly comes up with the browser window, then crashes. You can find OmniWeb here: http://files.omnigroup.com/software/Archive/NEXTSTEP/OmniWeb/ I'm not all too familiar with NeXTSTEP, so I'm not sure how I'd go about debugging this. But I figured I'd check here first to see if anyone has a recommended browser for NeXTSTEP 3.3. I would prefer to keep it at 3.3 and not move onto OPENSTEP if possible, just to keep things original. I also have Nexus, but I can't even seem to get it to open its browser at all. Document -> Open does nothing at all. Any ideas? Thanks, Kyle From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Wed Nov 11 13:14:05 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:14:05 +0000 Subject: Unusual Altair 8800 power supply. Upgrade kit, factory error, or something else? Message-ID: Hi All, I have what appears to be an Altair 8800 with the original Rev 0 front panel, but the rear panel and PSU is a back-to-front version of what's standard on the 8800b. Pictures at http://imgur.com/a/2EVRS I'm guessing this is a factory error, since the bare patch for the bridge rectifier and case holes are inverted too. But I'm aware of an upgrade kit (8800b-PS) that was offered to 8800 owners. So I'm guessing that's where the PSU and panel came from. Can anyone shed some light on this? Are there others like it? Regards, -Tom From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Wed Nov 11 13:25:20 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:25:20 +0000 Subject: OMNIBUS PDP-8 for sale? Message-ID: I'm after an 8/E, F, or M (with full panel). It doesn't need to be well equipped, just enough to run OS/8 from RX01/2s (I don't need the drives). Does anyone have one they'd part with? I'm prepared to match the average ebay selling price. -Tom From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Wed Nov 11 13:35:01 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:35:01 +0000 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What document did you try to open? I've never used OmniWeb or Nexis, but my experience with Mosaic and early Netscape versions makes me think you'd have a hard time getting modern pages to load without crashing. I should think that Lynx or the original Line Mode browser would be OK. http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Software/NEXTSTEP/Apps/Internet/WWW/Web%20Browsers/ -Tom On 11 November 2015 at 18:57, Kyle Owen wrote: > I recently got a NeXTstation Turbo running NeXTSTEP 3.3 (with patch 2 > applied). It's a fresh install, and I have a complete set of floppies and > disks, including the development CD. The system seems to be working great! > I've burned a CD with OmniWeb 2.7 beta 3 and untar'ed it on the system. > Unfortunately, when I try to open an HTML document, it briefly comes up > with the browser window, then crashes. You can find OmniWeb here: > http://files.omnigroup.com/software/Archive/NEXTSTEP/OmniWeb/ > > I'm not all too familiar with NeXTSTEP, so I'm not sure how I'd go about > debugging this. But I figured I'd check here first to see if anyone has a > recommended browser for NeXTSTEP 3.3. I would prefer to keep it at 3.3 and > not move onto OPENSTEP if possible, just to keep things original. > > I also have Nexus, but I can't even seem to get it to open its browser at > all. Document -> Open does nothing at all. Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Kyle > From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 13:36:44 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:36:44 -0500 Subject: Unusual Altair 8800 power supply. Upgrade kit, factory error, or something else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86D725D9-BF78-47DF-B8AB-20CF4F65AAC2@gmail.com> It not the rev 0 back panel for sure. I don't think it was a mistake either. If they used the same layout as rev 0 the transformer would interfere with the card cage. Joe > On Nov 11, 2015, at 2:14 PM, Tom Moss wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have what appears to be an Altair 8800 with the original Rev 0 front > panel, but the rear panel and PSU is a back-to-front version of what's > standard on the 8800b. > > Pictures at http://imgur.com/a/2EVRS > > I'm guessing this is a factory error, since the bare patch for the bridge > rectifier and case holes are inverted too. But I'm aware of an upgrade kit > (8800b-PS) that was offered to 8800 owners. So I'm guessing that's where > the PSU and panel came from. > > Can anyone shed some light on this? Are there others like it? > > Regards, > -Tom From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Nov 11 13:42:51 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:42:51 +0000 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35D0683E-8402-41C1-93EA-666F09E48D6A@swri.edu> On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I recently got a NeXTstation Turbo running NeXTSTEP 3.3 (with patch 2 > applied). It's a fresh install, and I have a complete set of floppies and > disks, including the development CD. The system seems to be working great! > I've burned a CD with OmniWeb 2.7 beta 3 and untar'ed it on the system. > Unfortunately, when I try to open an HTML document, it briefly comes up > with the browser window, then crashes. You can find OmniWeb here: > http://files.omnigroup.com/software/Archive/NEXTSTEP/OmniWeb/ > > I'm not all too familiar with NeXTSTEP, so I'm not sure how I'd go about > debugging this. But I figured I'd check here first to see if anyone has a > recommended browser for NeXTSTEP 3.3. I would prefer to keep it at 3.3 and > not move onto OPENSTEP if possible, just to keep things original. > > I also have Nexus, but I can't even seem to get it to open its browser at > all. Document -> Open does nothing at all. Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Kyle Kyle, Congratulations on the cool new system! I have OmniWeb running on my non-turbo cube. It occasionally crashes, but leaves the system up, and most sessions I get through with no trouble. I?ll check version number tonight and update you. How much memory is in your system? How much disk space left? There is a distributed.net client - you can be the second NeXT contributing to RC5-72: http://www.distributed.net http://www.distributed.net/Download But obviously, we need to get your browser playing first. - Mark From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Wed Nov 11 13:43:19 2015 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:43:19 -0800 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I've burned a CD with OmniWeb If you need a replacement icon for it, I made some a long time ago: http://i.imgur.com/EKNAukO.png -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 13:44:45 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:44:45 -0700 Subject: VT100 - FUN In-Reply-To: <56429D27.9030702@btinternet.com> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> <564223A9.9070707@btinternet.com> <0bf901d11c06$5fd2d850$1f7888f0$@ntlworld.com> <388E5ECA-0E87-47CF-B020-9A83DB7BD9BD@comcast.net> <56429D27.9030702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:43 PM, rod wrote: > I always considered the VT05 to be art or sculpture. > However DEC never produced anything else in the same style. The VT8-E used a similar or identical housing. From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Wed Nov 11 13:48:39 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:48:39 +0000 Subject: Unusual Altair 8800 power supply. Upgrade kit, factory error, or something else? In-Reply-To: <86D725D9-BF78-47DF-B8AB-20CF4F65AAC2@gmail.com> References: <86D725D9-BF78-47DF-B8AB-20CF4F65AAC2@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't quite understand how the transformer would get in the way? Was the rev 0 card cage mounted further back than later revisions? With mine, there's nothing stopping me mounting it the "right" way around, but I've got an aftermarket backplane. Tom On 11 November 2015 at 19:36, Joseph Lang wrote: > It not the rev 0 back panel for sure. I don't think it was a mistake > either. If they used the same layout as rev 0 the transformer would > interfere with the card cage. > > Joe > > > On Nov 11, 2015, at 2:14 PM, Tom Moss wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I have what appears to be an Altair 8800 with the original Rev 0 front > > panel, but the rear panel and PSU is a back-to-front version of what's > > standard on the 8800b. > > > > Pictures at http://imgur.com/a/2EVRS > > > > I'm guessing this is a factory error, since the bare patch for the bridge > > rectifier and case holes are inverted too. But I'm aware of an upgrade > kit > > (8800b-PS) that was offered to 8800 owners. So I'm guessing that's where > > the PSU and panel came from. > > > > Can anyone shed some light on this? Are there others like it? > > > > Regards, > > -Tom > From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 14:03:23 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:03:23 -0600 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 1:35 PM, Tom Moss wrote: > What document did you try to open? > Trying to open /NextApps/Nexus.app/default.html or help.html, or /NextApps/OmniWeb.app/English.lproj/Start.html. > I've never used OmniWeb or Nexis, but my experience with Mosaic and early > Netscape versions makes me think you'd have a hard time getting modern > pages to load without crashing. > Not yet connected to the Internet. Hope to get it connected up soon. I should think that Lynx or the original Line Mode browser would be OK. > > http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Software/NEXTSTEP/Apps/Internet/WWW/Web%20Browsers/ Hoping to get something a little more than Lynx or line mode, but at this point, I'll take what I can get that works! On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > > Congratulations on the cool new system! > I have OmniWeb running on my non-turbo cube. It occasionally > crashes, but leaves the system up, and most sessions I get through with no > trouble. I?ll check version number tonight and update you. > > How much memory is in your system? > How much disk space left? > > There is a distributed.net client - you can be the second NeXT > contributing to RC5-72: > > http://www.distributed.net > http://www.distributed.net/Download > > But obviously, we need to get your browser playing first. Thanks Mark! My system has 48 MB and around 650 MB left on the 1 GB HDD. Excited about the possibility of contributing to RC5-72! I'll have to hook up my less-than-good monitor if I'm going to leave it running for long periods of time. Maybe I'll install a switch in there to turn off the filament in the CRT when not in use. :) On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Chris Osborn wrote: > > If you need a replacement icon for it, I made some a long time ago: > > http://i.imgur.com/EKNAukO.png > Those are awesome! Nice work. I'll be posting to /r/retrobattlestations soon, by the way...maybe as soon as I can load retro.hackaday.com or the like. Kyle From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 14:05:04 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:05:04 -0500 Subject: Unusual Altair 8800 power supply. Upgrade kit, factory error, or something else? In-Reply-To: References: <86D725D9-BF78-47DF-B8AB-20CF4F65AAC2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <67124A00-B55F-41CD-92C1-12A6315D9C48@gmail.com> Rev 0 used a small (too small;-) transformer and suffered. The later PS used a larger transformer, but the layout had to be swapped to clear the card cage. Joe > On Nov 11, 2015, at 2:48 PM, Tom Moss wrote: > > I don't quite understand how the transformer would get in the way? Was the > rev 0 card cage mounted further back than later revisions? With mine, > there's nothing stopping me mounting it the "right" way around, but I've > got an aftermarket backplane. > > Tom > >> On 11 November 2015 at 19:36, Joseph Lang wrote: >> >> It not the rev 0 back panel for sure. I don't think it was a mistake >> either. If they used the same layout as rev 0 the transformer would >> interfere with the card cage. >> >> Joe >> >>> On Nov 11, 2015, at 2:14 PM, Tom Moss wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I have what appears to be an Altair 8800 with the original Rev 0 front >>> panel, but the rear panel and PSU is a back-to-front version of what's >>> standard on the 8800b. >>> >>> Pictures at http://imgur.com/a/2EVRS >>> >>> I'm guessing this is a factory error, since the bare patch for the bridge >>> rectifier and case holes are inverted too. But I'm aware of an upgrade >> kit >>> (8800b-PS) that was offered to 8800 owners. So I'm guessing that's where >>> the PSU and panel came from. >>> >>> Can anyone shed some light on this? Are there others like it? >>> >>> Regards, >>> -Tom >> From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 11 14:52:53 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:52:53 -0800 Subject: Unusual Altair 8800 power supply. Upgrade kit, factory error, or something else? In-Reply-To: <67124A00-B55F-41CD-92C1-12A6315D9C48@gmail.com> References: <86D725D9-BF78-47DF-B8AB-20CF4F65AAC2@gmail.com> <67124A00-B55F-41CD-92C1-12A6315D9C48@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5643AAA5.80202@sydex.com> On 11/11/2015 12:05 PM, Joseph Lang wrote: > Rev 0 used a small (too small;-) transformer and suffered. The later > PS used a larger transformer, but the layout had to be swapped to > clear the card cage. Yes, the transformer was too small. But "card cage"? All I've got is a bunch of blue plastic card guides screwed to the (4 slot) backplane PCB. When did the metal card cage come into being? --Chuck From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Wed Nov 11 15:56:26 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 21:56:26 +0000 Subject: Unusual Altair 8800 power supply. Upgrade kit, factory error, or something else? In-Reply-To: <5643AAA5.80202@sydex.com> References: <86D725D9-BF78-47DF-B8AB-20CF4F65AAC2@gmail.com> <67124A00-B55F-41CD-92C1-12A6315D9C48@gmail.com> <5643AAA5.80202@sydex.com> Message-ID: Well mine's an aftermarket one from "Jade Computers", as far as I'm aware MITS only used the plastic guides. Aren't the guides in the 8800 and 8800b mounted the same distance from the transformer? On 11 November 2015 at 20:52, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/11/2015 12:05 PM, Joseph Lang wrote: > >> Rev 0 used a small (too small;-) transformer and suffered. The later >> PS used a larger transformer, but the layout had to be swapped to >> clear the card cage. >> > > Yes, the transformer was too small. But "card cage"? All I've got is a > bunch of blue plastic card guides screwed to the (4 slot) backplane PCB. > When did the metal card cage come into being? > > --Chuck > From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Nov 11 17:14:15 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:14:15 +0000 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2015, at 2:03 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Not yet connected to the Internet. Hope to get it connected up soon. on my machine: mtapley2> /usr/etc/ifconfig -a en0: flags=63 inet 129.162.151.119 netmask ffffff80 broadcast 129.162.151.126 lo0: flags=869 inet 127.0.0.1 netmask ff000000 don?t know if that helps, let me know what else will help. Ethernet plugs in and the standard instructions at /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextAdmin/03_SetUpNet.rtfd/ for setting up static IP addresses, while somewhat arcane, worked for me. (Sure hope they mean, ? ."rich text format document". That would be more polite than what I fear?.) I?m running version 2.7 beta 3 according to the splash screen that comes up in response to ?info?. > Thanks Mark! My system has 48 MB and around 650 MB left on the 1 GB HDD. Neither of those sound like a problem. Mine has 64 MB but much less iron oxide left. > Excited about the possibility of contributing to RC5-72! I'll have to hook > up my less-than-good monitor if I'm going to leave it running for long > periods of time. Maybe I'll install a switch in there to turn off the > filament in the CRT when not in use. :) That would be cool; I have run out my monitor twice (both times, vertical scan collapsed and I switched to a backup monitor; once, shotgunning all capacitors fixed it, but I have yet to do that the second time) (Sorry Tony, time and brains both lacking here to do the job right :-) ). At the moment, I?m running a backup megapixel display on the Cube board and a Sun 15? color monitor on the NextDimension. Windows slide nicely from one to the other, but it does slow things down a little to run that way. However, if speed were the issue, the system would be in trouble; lots of screen real estate is one way it can still compete with my laptop! > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Chris Osborn wrote: >> >> If you need a replacement icon for it, I made some a long time ago: >> >> http://i.imgur.com/EKNAukO.png >> Hee hee! Yeah, it?s an education in patience, as blazing fast as it was on introduction. From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 17:45:52 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:45:52 -0600 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > > for setting up static IP addresses, while somewhat arcane, worked for me. > (Sure hope they mean, ? ."rich text format document". That would be more > polite than what I fear?.) > Hah! Thanks for the tips. Main issue is getting network services here at the university to give me an IP address. I'm going to take it home tonight and try there in the mean time. I?m running version 2.7 beta 3 according to the splash screen that comes up > in response to ?info?. > Good to know. Thanks for the confirmation! And you're running NeXTSTEP 3.3, correct? Neither of those sound like a problem. Mine has 64 MB but much less iron > oxide left. > Hope to get some more RAM in mine at some point, but I'll stick with what I've got for now. Happy to have that 1 GB drive with plenty of free space, though. Admittedly, it's a fresh install, so that's a good reason I've got less than half used. That would be cool; I have run out my monitor twice (both times, vertical > scan collapsed and I switched to a backup monitor; once, shotgunning all > capacitors fixed it, but I have yet to do that the second time) (Sorry > Tony, time and brains both lacking here to do the job right :-) ). > At the moment, I?m running a backup megapixel display on the Cube board > and a Sun 15? color monitor on the NextDimension. Windows slide nicely from > one to the other, but it does slow things down a little to run that way. > > However, if speed were the issue, the system would be in trouble; lots of > screen real estate is one way it can still compete with my laptop! > The two MegaPixel displays I have are both functional with some burn in, but they still seem pretty bright. However, one has a very apparent warble, but it was getting better after leaving it on for a while. I'm sure it had been a long time since it was powered up. Thanks, Kyle From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 11 18:21:11 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:21:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201511120021.TAA09500@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > mtapley2> /usr/etc/ifconfig -a > en0: flags=63 > inet 129.162.151.119 netmask ffffff80 broadcast 129.162.151.126 I don't know if it's related, but that's a very peculiar broadcast address for that address-and-netmask. (I'd expect to see 127 in the last octet, rather than 126.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 19:38:26 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:38:26 -0600 Subject: IBM PS/2 memory Message-ID: <5643ED92.6080001@gmail.com> Just dug my IBM 65sx out, which had already lost 2 of its original 6MB due to a bad memory module - but it seems like the remaining 4MB is not very happy, either, and it flakes out at 3.7MB or so. Obviously I need to source some replacement RAM. Does anyone know if the systems are picky about what they'll work with? I believe they have to have parity (unless there's some magic jumper/setting somewhere to make it work with non-parity stuff), but are there any other gotchas involved in terms of DRAM type, capacities etc.? (I'm wondering about trying some of the RAM from my SGI Indigo2, but I think that would mean losing 128MB from the system to give up a 32MB module for the IBM, as I believe the SGI needs them to be installed in groups of 4 - that's assuming that it's even compatible, anyway) cheers Jules From useddec at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 19:39:58 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:39:58 -0500 Subject: OMNIBUS PDP-8 for sale? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tom, My high speed is out, and i have to type on a pad. I have an 8E with no slides, no cover no bezel otherwise I can configure any way you want. Thanks, Paul On 11/11/15, Tom Moss wrote: > I'm after an 8/E, F, or M (with full panel). It doesn't need to be well > equipped, just enough to run OS/8 from RX01/2s (I don't need the drives). > > Does anyone have one they'd part with? I'm prepared to match the average > ebay selling price. > > -Tom > From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Nov 11 20:50:41 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 02:50:41 +0000 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <767AFCF5-59D9-4AA8-BC8F-65BB8D7519FD@swri.edu> On Nov 11, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Good to know. Thanks for the confirmation! And you're running NeXTSTEP 3.3, > correct? Correct. > The two MegaPixel displays I have are both functional with some burn in, > but they still seem pretty bright. However, one has a very apparent warble, > but it was getting better after leaving it on for a while. I'm sure it had > been a long time since it was powered up. Mine looked unusably fuzzy when first turned on. I sighed and left it on, and it has ?cleaned up? remarkably. I?m somewhat curious what causes that. Warble wasn?t much of a problem, but it seems pretty solid now. You know about the Lighthouse Design suite of applications, right? Presentation, spreadsheet, word processor, drawing program, etc. http://download.ithinksw.com/lighthouse/ Don?t forget the license strings. I?m also very partial to WriteNow, if you are able to find a copy of it. Licensing will be a *real* issue, but a version of Mathematica 3 will also run on that system. No idea where you could possibly find a copy of that, but it?s pretty cool and remarkably capable. Mouse wrote: > I don't know if it's related, but that's a very peculiar broadcast > address for that address-and-netmask. (I'd expect to see 127 in the > last octet, rather than 126.) That is good to know. I mucked around a long time before I finally .rtfd?d ( :-) ) and may have left something in a non-standard state. I can ftp, telnet, ssh, etc to the machine and from it using IP addresses; I have not tried using machine names. I can surf using Omniweb when I have something else to do while it loads, and routinely hit the Dilbert Zone, Distributed.net websites, etc.. The distributed net client successfully gets new work units, except that when I ssh (as opposed to telnet, which works) into the machine and request an update, it sometimes ?goes wild? and tries to download a near-infinite (until I open another terminal session and kill the distributed net job) number of work units. Should I try to fix that broadcast address? Or maybe, ask my IT guys whether it should be that way? From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 22:03:42 2015 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:03:42 -0500 Subject: IBM PS/2 memory In-Reply-To: <5643ED92.6080001@gmail.com> References: <5643ED92.6080001@gmail.com> Message-ID: My model 70 (386 version) wants 85ns 2MB modules. My blue lightning 70 (486) won't accept those. It demands 2MB 80ns modules. On Nov 11, 2015 8:36 PM, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > > Just dug my IBM 65sx out, which had already lost 2 of its original 6MB due > to a bad memory module - but it seems like the remaining 4MB is not very > happy, either, and it flakes out at 3.7MB or so. > > Obviously I need to source some replacement RAM. Does anyone know if the > systems are picky about what they'll work with? I believe they have to have > parity (unless there's some magic jumper/setting somewhere to make it work > with non-parity stuff), but are there any other gotchas involved in terms > of DRAM type, capacities etc.? > > (I'm wondering about trying some of the RAM from my SGI Indigo2, but I > think that would mean losing 128MB from the system to give up a 32MB module > for the IBM, as I believe the SGI needs them to be installed in groups of 4 > - that's assuming that it's even compatible, anyway) > > cheers > > Jules > > From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 22:49:35 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:49:35 -0600 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: <767AFCF5-59D9-4AA8-BC8F-65BB8D7519FD@swri.edu> References: <767AFCF5-59D9-4AA8-BC8F-65BB8D7519FD@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > > You know about the Lighthouse Design suite of applications, right? > Presentation, spreadsheet, word processor, drawing program, etc. > > http://download.ithinksw.com/lighthouse/ > > Don?t forget the license strings. > No, but thanks! Looks like good stuff. I've got NeXTTeX installed on here, but without a lot of the LaTeX extensions, I'm feeling a little underwhelmed with its capabilities. :) I was able to get it online here at the house. Minimal configuration required, thankfully. In fact, technically it's running wireless; I've got a nice little WiFi client/bridge/AP that gives me an Ethernet jack from my wireless router, all through the aether. I've installed ssh from here: http://nleymann.de/Nextstep/ and it looks like it works! Now I'd like to see if I can get an X server running. I see mention of Xnext on a slashdot page, but the link is dead, and archive.org failed to capture the whole site. Also trying to get SSL working better with OmniWeb. I still can't go to Gmail from it as it's complaining about cookie issues, and other sites, like reddit.com, fail to load altogether. :( This has been one of the best resources so far for new software to play with: http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/ Thanks again for the tips, and I look forward to getting distributed.net running soon! Kyle From supervinx at libero.it Thu Nov 12 01:20:55 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:20:55 +0100 Subject: ICL Quattro Message-ID: <1447312855.2540.11.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Hi! I found an ICL Quattro desktop computer. It looks in good shape, I had to repair only the PSU. Powering it up, I see disk activity, but I haven't his (proprietary?) monitor. On the back, I see a bunch of serial ports (DCE? DTE?) and a DB15 connector, I guess for monitor/kbd attachment. I tried to connect a terminal to the serial ports, with null modem and straight settings, but I had no answers. Do someone have some infos about the proprietary monitor/kbd port? Can it be run without the original monitor/kbd system? Or should I think about it as a... doorstopper? :D Thanks! -- Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) --==ooOoo==-- My computer collection: http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum --==ooOoo==-- You can reach me at: www.supervinx.com www.facebook.com/supervinx http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx http://www.myspace.com/supervinx From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 04:01:33 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 05:01:33 -0500 Subject: Unusual Altair 8800 power supply. Upgrade kit, factory error, or something else? In-Reply-To: <5643AAA5.80202@sydex.com> References: <86D725D9-BF78-47DF-B8AB-20CF4F65AAC2@gmail.com> <67124A00-B55F-41CD-92C1-12A6315D9C48@gmail.com> <5643AAA5.80202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <72EB2380-4102-4859-B207-47905D6B8FAC@gmail.com> Perhaps "card cage" is overstating what MITS did. Plastic guides screwed to a PCB is far more accurate. Joe > On Nov 11, 2015, at 3:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 11/11/2015 12:05 PM, Joseph Lang wrote: >> Rev 0 used a small (too small;-) transformer and suffered. The later >> PS used a larger transformer, but the layout had to be swapped to >> clear the card cage. > > Yes, the transformer was too small. But "card cage"? All I've got is a bunch of blue plastic card guides screwed to the (4 slot) backplane PCB. When did the metal card cage come into being? > > --Chuck From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Thu Nov 12 07:24:10 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:24:10 +0000 Subject: DECtape reliability? Message-ID: I've had very mixed (about 50/50) success with 9-track, but after reading a bit about DECtape it looks like they should still be holding up nicely. Anyone care to share their experiences? From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Nov 12 07:47:44 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:47:44 +0100 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56449880.3010007@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-12 14:24, Tom Moss wrote: > I've had very mixed (about 50/50) success with 9-track, but after reading a > bit about DECtape it looks like they should still be holding up nicely. > > Anyone care to share their experiences? Not sure what there is to share. I've yet to encounter a DECtape I couldn't read. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 12 09:27:29 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:27:29 -0600 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> On 11/12/2015 07:24 AM, Tom Moss wrote: > I've had very mixed (about 50/50) success with 9-track, but after reading a > bit about DECtape it looks like they should still be holding up nicely. > > Anyone care to share their experiences? > Some guys at Washington University restored a LINC that had been stored in somebody's garage for decades. They mostly just had to reform the power supply capacitors. Then, they got some LAP-6 tapes that had been in somebody's office and it booted right up! These were tapes that likely had been sitting for 30 years. LINCtape is essentially identical to DECtape. I think the directory format is different, but I think the block format is the same. I think the tapes are wound in reverse order and the order of increasing block numbers is reversed. Jon From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Thu Nov 12 09:39:13 2015 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:39:13 -0700 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've got over 200 DEC tapes written before 1973 and there are just a couple where there is any issue. Those with issues have severe wear of the tape surface. They were system tapes that were in constant service. Usually you get a couple of cycles of shoe shine and it manages to read anyway. It is entirely possible that a rewrite of those sectors would clear the issue entirely. They are pretty reliable. Doug On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 6:24 AM, Tom Moss wrote: > I've had very mixed (about 50/50) success with 9-track, but after reading a > bit about DECtape it looks like they should still be holding up nicely. > > Anyone care to share their experiences? > -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Thu Nov 12 09:45:17 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:45:17 +0000 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Excellent, I guess I'll have to get myself a TU56 at some point. On 12 November 2015 at 15:39, Doug Ingraham wrote: > I've got over 200 DEC tapes written before 1973 and there are just a couple > where there is any issue. Those with issues have severe wear of the tape > surface. They were system tapes that were in constant service. Usually > you get a couple of cycles of shoe shine and it manages to read anyway. It > is entirely possible that a rewrite of those sectors would clear the issue > entirely. > > They are pretty reliable. > > Doug > > > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 6:24 AM, Tom Moss wrote: > > > I've had very mixed (about 50/50) success with 9-track, but after > reading a > > bit about DECtape it looks like they should still be holding up nicely. > > > > Anyone care to share their experiences? > > > > > > -- > Doug Ingraham > PDP-8 SN 1175 > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 12 09:48:13 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:48:13 -0500 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: <56449880.3010007@update.uu.se> References: <56449880.3010007@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <315BC09A-057B-4909-8455-D50D0D432151@comcast.net> > On Nov 12, 2015, at 8:47 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-11-12 14:24, Tom Moss wrote: >> I've had very mixed (about 50/50) success with 9-track, but after reading a >> bit about DECtape it looks like they should still be holding up nicely. >> >> Anyone care to share their experiences? > > Not sure what there is to share. I've yet to encounter a DECtape I couldn't read. You're right, DECtape is extremely reliable. That makes sense: the tape is a sandwich, with the oxide underneath a mylar cover. My boss in college (a former and subsequent DEC OS developer) told me the same thing you did, that he'd never seen a DECtape fail. Not even the one that was accidentally laundered (in some pants pockets), or the one that came loose from the hub and rolled all over the sawdust covered floor of the DEC mill building. But I told him that I had seen some fail, and he saw it too. This was in college. We had an early RSTS system where DECtapes were used as public storage (to supplement the RK05 system disk). Those were so busy that they did eventually wear out. Sometimes they could be reformatted to bring them back to life, sometimes not. And yes, between the redundant tracks and the physical construction of the tape, you should expect DECtapes to be perfectly readable even today. paul From abs at absd.org Thu Nov 12 11:06:59 2015 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:06:59 +0000 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: References: <767AFCF5-59D9-4AA8-BC8F-65BB8D7519FD@swri.edu> Message-ID: On 12 November 2015 at 04:49, Kyle Owen wrote: > > Also trying to get SSL working better with OmniWeb. I still can't go to > Gmail from it as it's complaining about cookie issues, and other sites, > like reddit.com, fail to load altogether. :( Does OmniWeb support using a web proxy - if so you might find it easier to setup a proxy on another box on your local net and have it handle all the SSL (faster too :-p) From go at aerodesic.com Thu Nov 12 11:07:32 2015 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:07:32 -0800 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5644C754.5020106@aerodesic.com> On 11/12/2015 05:24 AM, Tom Moss wrote: > I've had very mixed (about 50/50) success with 9-track, but after reading a > bit about DECtape it looks like they should still be holding up nicely. > > Anyone care to share their experiences? > Long, long time ago I had a DECtape that had been severely 'stretched' by a problem with a drive. Normally when the drive reverses direction, it is smooth, and the tape stays firmly laying on the read/write head. But this drive needed adjustment and when the drive stopped after reverse motion, the motion on the left reel didn't stop as quickly as the motion on the right reel. Results: the tape would rise above the head a bit than 'snap' down when motion had ceased and the tension was re-affirmed. Once, unfortunately when I was out of the room, the tape flipped off the head and the reels started madly spinning (trying in vain to tension the tape that was no longer on the head area. Since the motors were spinning at different speeds (re the 'braking' problem,) the right reel was spinning faster and 'winning' causing the tape to get twisted pretty badly into a 1/8 mylar 'rope'. After powering down the drive and removing the tapes, I carefully unwound this mess and restored it to the original reel. Part of the tape where the most twisting had been done was now 'stretched' and only about 80% of its original width. You would think this would cause a problem? Not with DECtape. I was able to copy this wounded tape to another with no more than a few retries. No data loss. Alas, I tossed the original. It would have been a good trophy. -Gary From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 11:33:01 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:33:01 -0600 Subject: IBM PS/2 memory In-Reply-To: References: <5643ED92.6080001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5644CD4D.7010701@gmail.com> On 11/11/2015 10:03 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > My model 70 (386 version) wants 85ns 2MB modules. My blue lightning 70 > (486) won't accept those. It demands 2MB 80ns modules. Hmm, both of the ones that were originally in this machine (a 2MB and 4MB) were 85ns. The 2MB was snafu, but now the 4MB has gone bad, too. I can work around it by booting the reference disk and reconfiguring, then removing the disk and doing a warm boot, but it's less than ideal! I'm tempted to hack the 4MB simm and change the presence detect pins so that the machine thinks it's a 2MB one, which in theory should give me a happy machine so long as I don't try using that simm alongside any that I might acquire later. cheers Jules From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 11:33:59 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:33:59 -0600 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: References: <767AFCF5-59D9-4AA8-BC8F-65BB8D7519FD@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 11:06 AM, David Brownlee wrote: > Does OmniWeb support using a web proxy - if so you might find it > easier to setup a proxy on another box on your local net and have it > handle all the SSL (faster too :-p) > Good question; I'll have to look into that tonight! Here's some photographic documentation of my progress to date: http://imgur.com/a/ht2G3 Kyle From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 12 11:38:03 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 12:38:03 -0500 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: References: <767AFCF5-59D9-4AA8-BC8F-65BB8D7519FD@swri.edu> Message-ID: <5644CE7B.7030005@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-11-11 11:49 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: >> >> You know about the Lighthouse Design suite of applications, right? >> Presentation, spreadsheet, word processor, drawing program, etc. >> >> http://download.ithinksw.com/lighthouse/ >> >> Don?t forget the license strings. >> > > No, but thanks! Looks like good stuff. I've got NeXTTeX installed on here, > but without a lot of the LaTeX extensions, I'm feeling a little > underwhelmed with its capabilities. :) A complete TeX distribution should be well within the reach of NeXT (and there are no real obstacles to a port). I ran it on much smaller hardware even before NEXTSTEP 3.3 was current. > > I was able to get it online here at the house. ... > > Also trying to get SSL working better with OmniWeb. I still can't go to > Gmail from it as it's complaining about cookie issues, and other sites, > like reddit.com, fail to load altogether. :( Gmail is a bit optimistic, or are you only aiming at "basic HTML"?[1] Many sites no longer support browsers that are only a few years old (e.g. GitHub, which says it only supports "current versions" of even very modern browsers). I expect you'll have a lot of problems with public SSL, as ciphers, key sizes, trust chain are all rapidly moving targets. --Toby Cube/slab owner [1] "In general, Gmail supports the current and prior major release of Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer and Safari." https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6557?hl=en > > This has been one of the best resources so far for new software to play > with: http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/ > > Thanks again for the tips, and I look forward to getting distributed.net > running soon! > > Kyle > From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Nov 12 11:45:20 2015 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:45:20 -0800 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: <767AFCF5-59D9-4AA8-BC8F-65BB8D7519FD@swri.edu> References: <767AFCF5-59D9-4AA8-BC8F-65BB8D7519FD@swri.edu> Message-ID: <5644D030.8000908@snowmoose.com> On 11/11/15 6:50 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > On Nov 11, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: >> Good to know. Thanks for the confirmation! And you're running NeXTSTEP 3.3, >> correct? > Correct. > >> The two MegaPixel displays I have are both functional with some burn in, >> but they still seem pretty bright. However, one has a very apparent warble, >> but it was getting better after leaving it on for a while. I'm sure it had >> been a long time since it was powered up. > Mine looked unusably fuzzy when first turned on. I sighed and left it on, and it has ?cleaned up? remarkably. I?m somewhat curious what causes that. Warble wasn?t much of a problem, but it seems pretty solid now. > > You know about the Lighthouse Design suite of applications, right? Presentation, spreadsheet, word processor, drawing program, etc. > > http://download.ithinksw.com/lighthouse/ > > Don?t forget the license strings. I no longer have NeXT hardware, but have a few applications with licenses. Two are different versions of Design! from Lighthouse Design and are on the website above. Two (Collagist and StayInTouch) are from SmartSoft and I have not found them anywhere else. The SmartSoft web page on their NeXT applications was last updated in 1995 and they haven't responded to my e-mail asking about the license. I have tried to sell then give these applications away on the NeXT forums and got no takers. > > I?m also very partial to WriteNow, if you are able to find a copy of it. > > Licensing will be a *real* issue, but a version of Mathematica 3 will also run on that system. No idea where you could possibly find a copy of that, but it?s pretty cool and remarkably capable. > > Licensing for Mathematica is stupid. Wolfram still wants money for 25-year-old software that runs on long unsupported hardware. On a related topic, is there a browser that runs on Openstep 4.2 on SPARC now? OmniWeb reports that its license is expired and exits on my system. alan From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 12 12:15:15 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:15:15 -0500 Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: <5644D030.8000908@snowmoose.com> References: <767AFCF5-59D9-4AA8-BC8F-65BB8D7519FD@swri.edu> <5644D030.8000908@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <5644D733.3030001@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-11-12 12:45 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > On 11/11/15 6:50 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: >> ... >> [not sure who wrote] >> Licensing will be a *real* issue, but a version of Mathematica 3 will >> also run on that system. No idea where you could possibly find a copy >> of that, but it?s pretty cool and remarkably capable. >> >> > Licensing for Mathematica is stupid. Wolfram still wants money for > 25-year-old software that runs on long unsupported hardware. Has Wolfram ever done ANYTHING that wasn't predatory, unhelpful and self-serving? That said, I own a Mma 3.3 license for NEXTSTEP and it does work. --Toby > > On a related topic, is there a browser that runs on Openstep 4.2 on > SPARC now? OmniWeb reports that its license is expired and exits on my > system. > > alan > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 12 12:49:19 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:49:19 -0800 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5644DF2F.4080809@bitsavers.org> On 11/12/15 7:27 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > LINCtape is essentially identical to DECtape. I think the directory > format is different, but I think the block format is the same. I think > the tapes are wound in reverse order and the order of increasing block > numbers is reversed. > Actually the block format is different. "Obverse Compliment" encoding was created for DECtape. LINCtape blocks aren't bidirectional. The actual spec for the 3M tape can be found at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_nov66.pdf The protective overlay is .04 mils. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 12:56:54 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:56:54 -0700 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:27 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > LINCtape is essentially identical to DECtape. I think the directory format > is different, but I think the block format is the same. No, the block format is different, as the mark track symbols are different. It's similar, but DECtape made improvements to it to support full bidirectional read/write capability. (Not all DECtape systems actually would do reverse write. Some didn't even do reverse read. But the format supports both.) Also DECtape does not have a specific directory format. It depends on what computer line you are using (12-bit, 16-bit, 18-bit, or 36-bit), and in some cases on which operating system you are running. Some systems have software to access foreign DECtape logical formats; I think the widest range of DECtape interchange software provided by DEC was on TOPS-10. > I think the tapes are wound in reverse order Yes. From ethan at 757.org Thu Nov 12 14:05:42 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:05:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: NeXTSTEP 3.3 Web Browser In-Reply-To: <5644D030.8000908@snowmoose.com> References: <767AFCF5-59D9-4AA8-BC8F-65BB8D7519FD@swri.edu> <5644D030.8000908@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: >>> The two MegaPixel displays I have are both functional with some burn in, >>> but they still seem pretty bright. However, one has a very apparent >>> warble, >>> but it was getting better after leaving it on for a while. I'm sure it had >>> been a long time since it was powered up. Replace all of the electrolytic capacitors in the monitor. The ESR changes when they warm up. Be careful, could be high voltage if it wasn't designed to bleed down the charge in the tube. I'm curious if CRT tube rejuvination would work on bad megapixel displays. -- Ethan O'Toole From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 12 14:11:08 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:11:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: DECtape reliability? Message-ID: <20151112201108.E5EFF18C134@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tom Moss > I guess I'll have to get myself a TU56 at some point. Good luck with that! They are rare _and_ expensive; I'm trying to find one myself! Do you have a TC11 or TC08 (not sure which kind of system you're working with) already? If not, those are even rarer! :-) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 12 14:26:23 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:26:23 -0500 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 12, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > ... > Also DECtape does not have a specific directory format. It depends on > what computer line you are using (12-bit, 16-bit, 18-bit, or 36-bit), > and in some cases on which operating system you are running. Some > systems have software to access foreign DECtape logical formats; I > think the widest range of DECtape interchange software provided by DEC > was on TOPS-10. Either that, or RT-11. Its FILEX program supports a bunch of different formats including TOPS-10 format. (It used an odd way to read 36 bit data on a PDP-11 -- not using the read all command, but using the read data command and grabbing the upper 2 bits from a CSR as the words passed by. Tricky, you have to keep up with the DMA engine.) paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 12 14:38:56 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:38:56 -0000 Subject: ICL Quattro In-Reply-To: <1447312855.2540.11.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <1447312855.2540.11.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: <011f01d11d8a$270d4b10$7527e130$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of supervinx > Sent: 12 November 2015 07:21 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: ICL Quattro > > Hi! > I found an ICL Quattro desktop computer. > It looks in good shape, I had to repair only the PSU. > Powering it up, I see disk activity, but I haven't his (proprietary?) monitor. > On the back, I see a bunch of serial ports (DCE? DTE?) and a DB15 connector, I > guess for monitor/kbd attachment. > I tried to connect a terminal to the serial ports, with null modem and straight > settings, but I had no answers. > Do someone have some infos about the proprietary monitor/kbd port? > Can it be run without the original monitor/kbd system? > Or should I think about it as a... doorstopper? :D > > Thanks! > -- > Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) > > --==ooOoo==-- > My computer collection: > http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum > > --==ooOoo==-- > You can reach me at: > www.supervinx.com > www.facebook.com/supervinx > http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx > http://www.myspace.com/supervinx I can't help with the query unfortunately, but I would love to know where in Italy your collection is? In fact, it would be interesting to know where all the interesting collections in Italy are, as I do visit the country with some regularity. Annoyingly, I noticed just now that there is one near Siracusa, and I might have been able to visit that this past summer. Regards Rob From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Thu Nov 12 15:00:29 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:00:29 +0000 Subject: Uploaded: ISA Pertec Controller MS-DOS drivers + manual. (Catamount/Electrovalue ATC-8, ATC-16, PCT-9 MTC-16) Message-ID: Hi All, I've just archived my Catamount Pertec Controller software and manuals as I couldn't find a copy anywhere else. The ATC-8 and ATC-16 series of Pertec controllers are still being sold by Electrovalue, but with a different software package. I personally find the Catamount software much more useful, as it allows for labelled backups, programming tools, and hard drive + serial + parallel device emulation. This is version 3.2F. Software: https://archive.org/details/Catamount_ATC-16 Manuals: https://archive.org/details/3.2Manual The software is in ZIP and IMD format, but I should be able to make IMG dumps if anyone wants them. (not that it's really necessary) Hopefully this will be of use to someone, -Tom From cctalk at fahimi.net Thu Nov 12 15:11:12 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:11:12 -0800 Subject: Uploaded: ISA Pertec Controller MS-DOS drivers + manual. (Catamount/Electrovalue ATC-8, ATC-16, PCT-9 MTC-16) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007401d11d8e$a9e95de0$fdbc19a0$@net> > I've just archived my Catamount Pertec Controller software and manuals > as I couldn't find a copy anywhere else. Tom, Thanks for doing this. I am sure it will come in handy at some point. I am always amazed at how often you can find old HW but no SW or manuals to make it work. -Ali From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Nov 12 15:17:08 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:17:08 +0100 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <564501D4.20406@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-12 16:27, Jon Elson wrote: > LINCtape is essentially identical to DECtape. I think the directory > format is different, but I think the block format is the same. I think > the tapes are wound in reverse order and the order of increasing block > numbers is reversed. The directory format is OS dependent, and not really anything about the DECtape vs. LINKtape as such. But yes, LINKtape runs in the opposite direction to DECtape. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Nov 12 15:29:05 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:29:05 +0100 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: <5644DF2F.4080809@bitsavers.org> References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> <5644DF2F.4080809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <564504A1.5080704@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-12 19:49, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 11/12/15 7:27 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> LINCtape is essentially identical to DECtape. I think the directory >> format is different, but I think the block format is the same. I think >> the tapes are wound in reverse order and the order of increasing block >> numbers is reversed. >> > > Actually the block format is different. "Obverse Compliment" encoding > was created for DECtape. LINCtape blocks aren't bidirectional. Aha. Interesting. I didn't know that the bit patterns of the control channel was different. Curious question then - could most DECtape controllers even read LINCtpae? I know the TD8E can. The most stupid controller on the planet, but it enables you to deal with just about any DECtape format you could possibly ever invent. But other DECtape controllers might not be able to deal with tapes that use other codes to indicate what is being read...? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 12 15:29:25 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:29:25 -0600 Subject: 8 inch media Message-ID: <008e01d11d91$3467b410$9d371c30$@com> Several people were asking for 8" floppy diskettes. I found some new at the recycle center. Maxell FD1-128 single sided, single or double density, soft-sectored. Total of 17 disks. Asking $2 each plus shipping. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 12 15:42:39 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:42:39 -0500 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: <564504A1.5080704@update.uu.se> References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> <5644DF2F.4080809@bitsavers.org> <564504A1.5080704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <2E86B52B-E6A2-445D-81C8-68D2FEDECB7A@comcast.net> > On Nov 12, 2015, at 4:29 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-11-12 19:49, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >> On 11/12/15 7:27 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>> LINCtape is essentially identical to DECtape. I think the directory >>> format is different, but I think the block format is the same. I think >>> the tapes are wound in reverse order and the order of increasing block >>> numbers is reversed. >>> >> >> Actually the block format is different. "Obverse Compliment" encoding >> was created for DECtape. LINCtape blocks aren't bidirectional. > > Aha. Interesting. I didn't know that the bit patterns of the control channel was different. > > Curious question then - could most DECtape controllers even read LINCtpae? > > I know the TD8E can. The most stupid controller on the planet, but it enables you to deal with just about any DECtape format you could possibly ever invent. > > But other DECtape controllers might not be able to deal with tapes that use other codes to indicate what is being read...? I believe you can do this on the TC11 with the READ-ALL operation, but my memory is vague and the manuals I have handy aren't detailed enough. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 15:54:10 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:54:10 -0600 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? Message-ID: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist) I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past. I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying bad sectors. cheers Jules From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 12 15:54:23 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:54:23 -0600 Subject: 8 inch media In-Reply-To: <008e01d11d91$3467b410$9d371c30$@com> References: <008e01d11d91$3467b410$9d371c30$@com> Message-ID: <00a301d11d94$b18f7830$14ae6890$@com> Diskettes are sold! That was fast! Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:29 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: 8 inch media Several people were asking for 8" floppy diskettes. I found some new at the recycle center. Maxell FD1-128 single sided, single or double density, soft-sectored. Total of 17 disks. Asking $2 each plus shipping. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 12 15:56:19 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:56:19 -0600 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a401d11d94$f6a04940$e3e0dbc0$@com> We used to back up to serial attached devices, such as tape drives or a serially attached hard drive, but I never did it to a different operating system, sorry. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:54 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist) I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past. I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying bad sectors. cheers Jules --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com Thu Nov 12 15:56:39 2015 From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:56:39 -0500 Subject: 8 inch media In-Reply-To: <008e01d11d91$3467b410$9d371c30$@com> References: <008e01d11d91$3467b410$9d371c30$@com> Message-ID: I also have a box of the DEC 8-inch if needed. Fun story to go along with this topic. As part of the VMS engineering team that dealt with a number of customer issues the following happened. We got a call from a customer who had not made a back up of his system disk and they needed an ancient version of VMS. We had the VMS version but getting the 8 inch floppy took more time. We made two copies. As an FYI this was the first time the system ever went down. Sue > On Nov 12, 2015, at 4:29 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > > Several people were asking for 8" floppy diskettes. I found some new at the > recycle center. > > Maxell FD1-128 single sided, single or double density, soft-sectored. > > Total of 17 disks. Asking $2 each plus shipping. > > > > Cindy > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus Sue Skonetski VP of Customer Advocacy Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Thu Nov 12 15:58:34 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:58:34 +0000 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've never seen anything works on the sector level, but there are plenty of terminal emulators that can backup entire directorties with YMODEM batch or Kermit. Is there any paricular reason you want disk imaging capability? Bootsectors on DOS can be re-written with the SYS command, so a boot floppy of the same version + the terminal emulator should be all you need to do a restore. On 12 November 2015 at 21:54, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an x86 > PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote > system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist) > > I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing > that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past. > > I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a > given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor > intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send > everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying > bad sectors. > > cheers > > Jules > From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Thu Nov 12 16:03:09 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:03:09 +0000 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: This may also be of use: https://www.briggsoft.com/fmdos.htm On 12 November 2015 at 21:58, Tom Moss wrote: > I've never seen anything works on the sector level, but there are plenty > of terminal emulators that can backup entire directorties with YMODEM batch > or Kermit. > > Is there any paricular reason you want disk imaging capability? > Bootsectors on DOS can be re-written with the SYS command, so a boot floppy > of the same version + the terminal emulator should be all you need to do a > restore. > > On 12 November 2015 at 21:54, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an >> x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote >> system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist) >> >> I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing >> that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past. >> >> I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a >> given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor >> intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send >> everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying >> bad sectors. >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 12 16:05:51 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:05:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201511122205.RAA17572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up > an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to > a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options > exist) Bring up a liveCD or moral equivalent and run SLIP, then do any of many networked-backup variants? SLIP at 115200 is only about 1% of a 10Mb Ethernet, but that may be enough to be useful, especially if you compress. Alternatively, maybe move the DOS disk to the other machine and copy it there with dd or moral equivalent? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Nov 12 16:09:57 2015 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:09:57 -0700 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <201511122205.RAA17572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <201511122205.RAA17572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Mouse wrote: > > As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up > > an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to > > a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options > > exist) > > Bring up a liveCD or moral equivalent and run SLIP, then do any of many > networked-backup variants? SLIP at 115200 is only about 1% of a 10Mb > Ethernet, but that may be enough to be useful, especially if you > compress 10kb/s is about 800MB/day (rounded down), or roughly 1CD / day. Warner From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 16:40:58 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:40:58 -0600 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <201511122205.RAA17572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <201511122205.RAA17572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5645157A.20207@gmail.com> On 11/12/2015 04:05 PM, Mouse wrote: >> As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up >> an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to >> a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options >> exist) > > Bring up a liveCD or moral equivalent and run SLIP, then do any of many > networked-backup variants? Hmm, was SLIP an option for DOS TCP/IP stacks? I'd not considered that because I've only ever used TCP/IP in a DOS environment against Ethernet hardware, but if I could get SLIP up and map a DOS drive letter to a remote mount point, that would probably do the trick... > SLIP at 115200 is only about 1% of a 10Mb > Ethernet, but that may be enough to be useful, especially if you > compress. I'm not sure if something with e.g. an 8088 CPU can even come close to that - maybe 9600, tops. I'd be expecting several hours of transfer for a typical 20MB ST506-type drive, assuming it was doing raw sectors rather than just "in use" data - but I think it's the only option in some cases where Ethernet or sneakernetting data via floppy isn't viable. > Alternatively, maybe move the DOS disk to the other machine and copy it > there with dd or moral equivalent? For anything modern with IDE or SCSI, sure, but not so easy for ST506/ST412/ESDI :( cheers Jules From isking at uw.edu Thu Nov 12 17:27:13 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:27:13 -0800 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: <2E86B52B-E6A2-445D-81C8-68D2FEDECB7A@comcast.net> References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> <5644DF2F.4080809@bitsavers.org> <564504A1.5080704@update.uu.se> <2E86B52B-E6A2-445D-81C8-68D2FEDECB7A@comcast.net> Message-ID: PIP10 will let you read (and ISTR, write) PDP-10 formatted tapes on a PDP-8/TC08. Been there, done that. I don't know if there would be a problem on a TD8E setup. -- Ian On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Nov 12, 2015, at 4:29 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > On 2015-11-12 19:49, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > >> > >> On 11/12/15 7:27 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> > >>> LINCtape is essentially identical to DECtape. I think the directory > >>> format is different, but I think the block format is the same. I think > >>> the tapes are wound in reverse order and the order of increasing block > >>> numbers is reversed. > >>> > >> > >> Actually the block format is different. "Obverse Compliment" encoding > >> was created for DECtape. LINCtape blocks aren't bidirectional. > > > > Aha. Interesting. I didn't know that the bit patterns of the control > channel was different. > > > > Curious question then - could most DECtape controllers even read > LINCtpae? > > > > I know the TD8E can. The most stupid controller on the planet, but it > enables you to deal with just about any DECtape format you could possibly > ever invent. > > > > But other DECtape controllers might not be able to deal with tapes that > use other codes to indicate what is being read...? > > I believe you can do this on the TC11 with the READ-ALL operation, but my > memory is vague and the manuals I have handy aren't detailed enough. > > paul > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From katelists at trouts.org Fri Nov 13 09:24:17 2015 From: katelists at trouts.org (katelists at trouts.org) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:24:17 -0800 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <0000339fe17d$00d005df$cf3b1caf$@trouts.org> Hey! New message, please read katelists at trouts.org From katelists at trouts.org Fri Nov 13 09:24:39 2015 From: katelists at trouts.org (katelists at trouts.org) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:24:39 -0800 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <0000713028e4$e6a70fac$20c53789$@trouts.org> Hey! New message, please read katelists at trouts.org From katelists at trouts.org Fri Nov 13 09:24:39 2015 From: katelists at trouts.org (katelists at trouts.org) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:24:39 -0800 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <0000713028e4$e6a70fac$20c53789$@trouts.org> Hey! New message, please read katelists at trouts.org From katelists at trouts.org Fri Nov 13 09:26:24 2015 From: katelists at trouts.org (katelists at trouts.org) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:26:24 -0800 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> Hey! New message, please read katelists at trouts.org From wulfman at wulfman.com Thu Nov 12 17:40:01 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:40:01 -0700 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> Message-ID: <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> dont open this link. On 11/13/2015 8:26 AM, katelists at trouts.org wrote: > Hey! > > > > New message, please read > > > > katelists at trouts.org > > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Nov 12 17:43:37 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:43:37 +0100 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> <5644DF2F.4080809@bitsavers.org> <564504A1.5080704@update.uu.se> <2E86B52B-E6A2-445D-81C8-68D2FEDECB7A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56452429.3050708@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-13 00:27, Ian S. King wrote: > PIP10 will let you read (and ISTR, write) PDP-10 formatted tapes on a > PDP-8/TC08. Been there, done that. I don't know if there would be a > problem on a TD8E setup. -- Ian No, PIP10 knows of both the TC08 and TD8E. If you ever read the PIP10 source code, you'll see the drivers for both controllers in the code. (Yay for OS/8. Any program wanting to deal with a device in any way beyond the very basic as to have its own drivers for the device. OS/8 device drivers are super primitive...) However, that is still dealing with DECtapes. I'm curious about the ability to deal with LINCtapes, that don't use the same codes on the mark track (or whatever it was called, my memory fails me at the moment). The TD8E do not understand things at all, and everything have to be done in software, which is why I'm saying that it will actually deal with the LINCtape format if you want it to. However, more "intelligent" controllers do all this processing of the mark track to identify start and end of block/tape, and all other processing, in the controller. Can you make them read out the contents and do the processing if you have different control codes? Johnny > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>> On Nov 12, 2015, at 4:29 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>> On 2015-11-12 19:49, Al Kossow wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/12/15 7:27 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >>>> >>>>> LINCtape is essentially identical to DECtape. I think the directory >>>>> format is different, but I think the block format is the same. I think >>>>> the tapes are wound in reverse order and the order of increasing block >>>>> numbers is reversed. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Actually the block format is different. "Obverse Compliment" encoding >>>> was created for DECtape. LINCtape blocks aren't bidirectional. >>> >>> Aha. Interesting. I didn't know that the bit patterns of the control >> channel was different. >>> >>> Curious question then - could most DECtape controllers even read >> LINCtpae? >>> >>> I know the TD8E can. The most stupid controller on the planet, but it >> enables you to deal with just about any DECtape format you could possibly >> ever invent. >>> >>> But other DECtape controllers might not be able to deal with tapes that >> use other codes to indicate what is being read...? >> >> I believe you can do this on the TC11 with the READ-ALL operation, but my >> memory is vague and the manuals I have handy aren't detailed enough. >> >> paul >> >> >> > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 12 17:52:48 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:52:48 -0800 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56452650.7050106@sydex.com> On 11/12/2015 01:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up > an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to > a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options > exist) > > I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of > thing that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in > the past. > > I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from > a given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor > intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send > everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for > retrying bad sectors. Any particular reason that RS232C has to be the linkup? There are plenty of external drives that can use the parallel port with regular software. For example, hook up a ZIP drive. Alternatively, you could boot DOS from floppy with INTERLINK/INTERSVR installed and use another DOS/WIN machine to do your backup. I'm certain that options abound. --Chuck From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Nov 12 17:59:46 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 23:59:46 +0000 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> <5644DF2F.4080809@bitsavers.org> <564504A1.5080704@update.uu.se> <2E86B52B-E6A2-445D-81C8-68D2FEDECB7A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2E779@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Ian S. King Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:27 PM > PIP10 will let you read (and ISTR, write) PDP-10 formatted tapes on a > PDP-8/TC08. Been there, done that. I don't know if there would be a > problem on a TD8E setup. -- Ian PIP10 explicitly includes code to use the TD8E instead of the TC01/TC08; it checks to find out what kind of controller is in the machine and sets up the dispatch tables appropriately. I know this, because when I had to create a new mode in PDP10 to read in and decode ASCII-encoded 36 bit binaries[1], my code and the TD8E code got in each other's way.[2] Rich [1] Specifically, diagnostics for the KI-10 to be read from DECtape after being compiled on the Toad-1. The only way to get them to the KI was to ftp the encoded files to my laptop, use Kermit from the laptop to the 8/e, and PIP10 to scribble them onto a PDP-10 format DECtape. It was an experience. [2] Fields, yeah? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 12 18:00:57 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:00:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <5645157A.20207@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <201511122205.RAA17572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5645157A.20207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201511130000.TAA05116@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Bring up a liveCD or moral equivalent and run SLIP, then do any of >> many networked-backup variants? > Hmm, was SLIP an option for DOS TCP/IP stacks? I meant for the livecd to be on the usually-running-DOS machine. But see below. Of course, if you have the ability to add hardware, you might be able to pop an Ethernet in to the machine. But you specified serial.... > I'm not sure if something with e.g. an 8088 CPU can even come close > to that - maybe 9600, tops. Yes, if it's _that_ old, it may be difficult to find a livecd that will run. Perhaps minix? It also might be worth investigating to see if any of the [xyz]modem implementations would be willing to read directly from a disk. > I'd be expecting several hours of transfer for a typical 20MB > ST506-type drive, At 9600, assuming no loss to framing, error detection/correction, and the like, my arithmetic says 20MB should take a little over 6 hours. >> Alternatively, maybe move the DOS disk to the other machine and copy >> it there with dd or moral equivalent? > For anything modern with IDE or SCSI, sure, but not so easy for > ST506/ST412/ESDI :( True enough. However, I _think_ some old Sun and MicroVAX machines play in that space; I've seen Qbus hardware that talks to drives with card-edge connectors and I've seen SCSI-to-cardedge interfaces on Suns of Sun-3/260 vintage. I don't know the details of ST506, ESDI, and all that, but it strikes me as at least _possible_ that something in that line might be able to help. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Nov 12 18:16:40 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:16:40 +0000 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: <56452429.3050708@update.uu.se> References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> <5644DF2F.4080809@bitsavers.org> <564504A1.5080704@update.uu.se> <2E86B52B-E6A2-445D-81C8-68D2FEDECB7A@comcast.net> <56452429.3050708@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2E79D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:44 PM > However, that is still dealing with DECtapes. I'm curious about the > ability to deal with LINCtapes, that don't use the same codes on the mark > track (or whatever it was called, my memory fails me at the moment). Yes, "mark track". > The TD8E do not understand things at all, and everything have to be done > in software, which is why I'm saying that it will actually deal with the > LINCtape format if you want it to. Right. The TD8E only sees "single line passed" (= 3 bits of data + 1 bit of mark) and "four lines passed" (= 12 bits of data + 1 mark code) and is completely agnostic about the values. > However, more "intelligent" controllers do all this processing of the > mark track to identify start and end of block/tape, and all other > processing, in the controller. Can you make them read out the contents > and do the processing if you have different control codes? The state machine implemented in hardware for all the intelligent DECtape controllers will not recognize the 4-bit LINCtape codes at all, since the DECtape codes are 6 bits long. You'll just get a MARK Error. Rich From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 12 20:04:38 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:04:38 -0500 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> On 11/12/2015 06:40 PM, wulfman wrote: > dont open this link. > > > On 11/13/2015 8:26 AM, katelists at trouts.org wrote: >> Hey! >> >> >> >> New message, please read >> >> >> >> katelists at trouts.org >> >> > > Why not? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From wulfman at wulfman.com Thu Nov 12 20:11:32 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:11:32 -0700 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> its a bad place to go. but feel free to ignore good advice any time you wish. On 11/12/2015 7:04 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 11/12/2015 06:40 PM, wulfman wrote: >> dont open this link. >> >> >> On 11/13/2015 8:26 AM, katelists at trouts.org wrote: >>> Hey! >>> >>> >>> >>> New message, please read >>> >>> >>> >>> katelists at trouts.org >>> >>> >> >> > Why not? > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 20:24:48 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 02:24:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: In Memoriam: Gene Amdahl 1922-2015 References: <807526742.3400194.1447381488220.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <807526742.3400194.1447381488220.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> http://m.cacm.acm.org/news/194192-in-memoriam-gene-amdahl-1922-2015/fulltext Gene Amdahl, who formulated Amdahl's Law and worked with IBM and others on developments related to mainframe computing, died recently from complications of pneumonia. American computer architect and high-tech entrepreneur Gene Myron Amdahl died Tuesday at the age of 92. Amdahl?s wife Marian said he had suffered from Alzheimer?s disease for about five years, before succumbing to pneumonia. "We are thankful for his kind spirit and brilliant mind. He was a devout Christian and a loving father and husband. I was blessed with having him as my husband and my best friend. I praise God for His faithfulness to us for more than 69 years." Born to immigrant parents in South Dakota, Amdahl served in the U.S. Navy during World War II. He completed a bachelor?s degree in engineering physics at South Dakota State University in 1948 and went on to study theoretical physics at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, where he received his doctorate in 1952. Amdahl joined IBM in 1952, where he worked on the IBM 704, the IBM 709, and then the Stretch project, the basis for the IBM 7030. He left IBM in 1955 but returned in 1960 and became chief architect of the System/360 mainframe computer. Amdahl was named an IBM Fellow in 1965, as well as head of the IBM Advanced Computing Systems Laboratory in Menlo Park, CA. He left IBM again in 1970 and set up Amdahl Corporation, which specialized in IBM mainframe-compatible computer products, with the help of Fujitsu. The company manufactured "plug-compatible" mainframes, starting in 1975 with the Amdahl 470V/6, a less-expensive, more-reliable, faster alternative to IBM?s System 370/168. Amdahl's software team developed Virtual Machine/Performance Enhancement (VM/PE) software to optimize the performance of IBM's Multiple Virtual Storage (MVS) operating system when running under IBM's VM operating system. Within four years, the corporation had sold more than $1 billion of V6 and V7 mainframes and had more than 6,000 employees worldwide. At ACM's Spring Joint Computer Conference in 1967, Amdahl participated in a discussion on future architectural trends, arguing for performance limitations in any special feature or mode introduced to new machines. This resulted in what came to be known as Amdahl?s Law regarding sequential vs. parallel processing. Amdahl left his company in 1979 to set up Trilogy Systems, an organization aimed at designing an integrated chip for even cheaper mainframes. When the chip development failed within months of the company's $60-million public offering, Trilogy focused on developing its VLSI technology, which also did not do well. In 1985 Trilogy was merged into microcomputer manufacturer Elxsi (now Tata Elxsi), but poor results there had Amdahl leaving in 1989 for a company he founded in 1987 to produce mid-sized mainframes, Andor International, which had been driven into bankruptcy by production problems and strong competition by 1995. In 1996 Amdahl co-founded Commercial Data Servers, again developing mainframe-like machines but this time with new super-cooled processor designs and aimed at physically smaller systems. The company, now known as Xbridge Systems, develops software to scan mainframe datasets and database tables for sensitive information such as credit card numbers, government identification numbers, and medical diagnosis information. In November 2004, Amdahl was appointed to the board of advisors of Massively Parallel Technologies, a Scottsdale, AZ, software engineering firm. Amdahl was a member of the National Academy of Engineering and the recipient of honorary doctorates from four institutions. He also was the recipient of the IEEE?s Harry H. Goode Memorial Award, a Fellow of the Computer History Museum, and recipient of the ACM Special Interest Group on Design Automation (SIGDA) Pioneering Achievement Award. Said David Patterson, a professor of computer sciences at the University of California, Berkeley, and a computer pioneer in his own right, "The IBM System/360 was one of the greatest computer architectures of all time, being both a tremendous technical success and business success. It invented a computer family, which we would call binary compatibility today. When he left to form his own company, his mainframes were binary compatible with the System/360." Patterson noted the brief paper Amdahl submitted to ACM?s Spring Joint Computer Conference "basically offering a critique to enthusiasts about the parallel supercomputers of the era." He cited the beginning of that paper as laying out the arguments for what became Amdahl's Law: From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 12 20:27:24 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:27:24 -0500 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> On 11/12/2015 09:11 PM, wulfman wrote: > On 11/12/2015 7:04 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> On 11/12/2015 06:40 PM, wulfman wrote: >>> On 11/13/2015 8:26 AM, katelists at trouts.org wrote: >>>> Hey! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> New message, please read >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> katelists at trouts.org >>>> >>>> >>> dont open this link. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Why not? >> > its a bad place to go. but feel free to ignore good advice any time you > wish. > > Dude, chill. I figured it was a scam, I was just curious what kind. And please use proper mailing bottom-posting etiquette. Makes the conversation easier to follow. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 12 20:32:11 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:32:11 -0500 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2E79D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> <5644DF2F.4080809@bitsavers.org> <564504A1.5080704@update.uu.se> <2E86B52B-E6A2-445D-81C8-68D2FEDECB7A@comcast.net> <56452429.3050708@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2E79D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <2BC34586-24DE-4916-ADFF-C5CA4BC7D281@comcast.net> > On Nov 12, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > ... >> However, more "intelligent" controllers do all this processing of the >> mark track to identify start and end of block/tape, and all other >> processing, in the controller. Can you make them read out the contents >> and do the processing if you have different control codes? > > The state machine implemented in hardware for all the intelligent DECtape > controllers will not recognize the 4-bit LINCtape codes at all, since the > DECtape codes are 6 bits long. You'll just get a MARK Error. Doesn't read-all leave mark track recognition to software? paul From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 20:58:20 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:58:20 -0600 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151113025820.GD52582@gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an x86 > PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote > system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist) > > I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing > that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past. > > I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a given > partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor intelligence on > the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send everything" mentality > is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying bad sectors. > > cheers > > Jules I've been pondering a way to do this with an Atari ST hard drive, too. -- Eric Christopherson From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 12 21:16:09 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:16:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <201511130000.TAA05116@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <201511122205.RAA17572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5645157A.20207@gmail.com> <201511130000.TAA05116@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Nov 2015, Mouse wrote: > However, I _think_ some old Sun and MicroVAX machines play in that > space; I've seen Qbus hardware that talks to drives with card-edge > connectors and I've seen SCSI-to-cardedge interfaces on Suns of > Sun-3/260 vintage. I don't know the details of ST506, ESDI, and all > that, but it strikes me as at least _possible_ that something in that > line might be able to help. If the hard disk is an XT ST506/412 interfaced drive, using the original OEM IBM hard disk controller (made by Xebec), then it can be easily switched to another XT using the original OEM IBM hard disk controller. Other hard disk controllers, including other models from Xebec!, may not recognize the format! Other controllers could probably read at a sector level, iff you're willing to write some minor INT13h routines. (some number sectors from 0, some from 1, etc.) AT hard drives (OEM controller is WD) seem to be reasonably interchangeable from one machine to another. ESDI (mostly WD -7 controllers) will probably interchange. RLL will often not work with a different make controller. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Nov 12 21:19:13 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:19:13 -0500 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <20151113025820.GD52582@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <20151113025820.GD52582@gmail.com> Message-ID: <564556B1.5000908@compsys.to> >Eric Christopherson wrote: >>On Thu, Nov 12, 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >>As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an x86 >>PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote >>system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist) >> >>I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing >>that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past. >> >>I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a given >>partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor intelligence on >>the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send everything" mentality >>is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying bad sectors. >> >>cheers >> >>Jules >> >> > >I've been pondering a way to do this with an Atari ST hard drive, too. > While my backup image files are far too large to consider an RS232 transfer (my backup image files are 1 GB), I would still suggest that if you are performing a backup of your entire drive (or just partition), Ghost is an excellent program to produce a compressed image file first. After that, you will have a relatively small file to transfer. There is probably one restriction that you may not realize at first glance. You will require at least TWO drives (or partitions). The compressed image file of the C: drive (or partition) must fit completely on the unused space of the second partition. Of course, for the best transfer rate, it is useful to have two physical drives and to compress the C: drive onto the second physical drive. After the backup is complete, you will be able to transfer a much smaller compressed image file to your remote system. Jerome Fine From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 12 21:25:58 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:25:58 -0600 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> Apologies, not sure how that got through. Maybe a listmember got address-book-malware. Will see if the headers reveal anything that is easy to spot. J From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 12 21:28:09 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:28:09 -0800 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <201511130000.TAA05116@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <201511122205.RAA17572@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5645157A.20207@gmail.com> <201511130000.TAA05116@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <564558C9.5090600@bitsavers.org> On 11/12/15 4:00 PM, Mouse wrote: > However, I _think_ some old Sun and MicroVAX machines play in that > space; I've seen Qbus hardware that talks to drives with card-edge > connectors and I've seen SCSI-to-cardedge interfaces on Suns of > Sun-3/260 vintage. I don't know the details of ST506, ESDI, and all > that, but it strikes me as at least _possible_ that something in that > line might be able to help. > Not really. Sun used Adaptec 4000's for MFM and Emulex MD21 for ESDI DEC did its own thing, Emulex sold into that space with MFM/ESDI but with their own formats. Dave G's MFM emulator could read it, but just finding a serial block transfer program that can cope with bad sectors would probably be easiest. It wouldn't even be that difficult to write one if the system still knows about the disk geometry in the CMOS RAM and you can use BIOS calls. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Nov 12 21:29:06 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:29:06 -0500 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56455902.4060506@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: >Apologies, not sure how that got through. > >Maybe a listmember got address-book-malware. Will see if the headers reveal >anything that is easy to spot. > So few get through that the VERY rare exception is a credit to your diligence and choice of a great filter. And as many of us all too often forget to say: THANK YOU FOR A GREAT SERVICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Nov 12 21:44:19 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:44:19 -0500 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> I sent the following post to Al on November 10th at 9:22 P.M. EST. Al did not reply or I did not see his reply, so I presume that he is just ignoring my request although Al did ask Jay Jaeger to respond. Al, if you have changed your mind, please reply with the name of the incoming directory as a link. If anyone else agrees that it would be helpful for bitsavers to host these RT-11 file images, please help the cause by agreeing or at least supporting this request. AND if Al continues to ignore this request, does anyone else wish to host these RT-11 file images? I suggest that bitsavers is well known and is already mirrored, so it is probably a better choice. Jerome Fine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Al Kossow wrote: > >On 11/10/15 2:10 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> A PDF is there as well as a zip file containing the original .tif files >> as Al Kossow prefers for submissions. (Al: Hint, Hint ;) ). > > Thanks! Just send me an email as you add things, and I will pick them up. I also notice that the /bits/ files do not seem to have had the same attention as the /pdf/ side of the fence. In particular, as an RT-11 addict, there are many additional image files available on the internet which are not reflected at bitsavers and its mirrors. While I agree that you may be concerned that some at those image files are for versions of RT-11 after V05.03, at least a few are not and at least those had been explicitly allowed even by Mentec. Would you find it appropriate to host these files at bitsavers and its mirrors? In addition, a few internet sites have also had a number of files for versions of RT-11 after V05.03 for over 5 years now. Since bitsavers and its mirrors are probably better known than most other sites, would you also find it appropriate to host these as well? Do you also have an incoming directory which will accept image files? You can then move them to the correct sub-directory and maybe even rename them? Some of the RT-11 image files have DEC ( owner / volumeID ) values which are the equivalent of the names given to PDF files for DEC manuals. Please advise whether or not you wish to have copies of these RT-11 DEC image files. Jerome Fine From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Nov 12 21:51:21 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:51:21 -0600 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> Message-ID: <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> I think bitsavers is the best spot for that type of thing. But if for whatever reason Al doesn't wish to, I'd be happy to put them at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/ in the RT11 directory. There are already files and distributions of interest there. J From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Nov 12 22:58:38 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:58:38 -0800 Subject: new message In-Reply-To: <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20151112205838.50f1165d@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:25:58 -0600 "Jay West" wrote: > Apologies, not sure how that got through. > > Maybe a listmember got address-book-malware. Will see if the headers reveal > anything that is easy to spot. I'm a member of spamcop and submitted all of the spam posts to spamcop (since becoming a member, I've submitted over 15,000 spams to them). At any rate, here's the detail of who posted it - and the ISP who got the spam post: -------------------------------------------- Here are the results of your submission: Processing spam: From: katelists at trouts.org Subject: Fw: new message 0: Received: from huey.classiccmp.org ([199.188.211.196]:24115) by biz170.inmotionhosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1Zx1HS-002Mnq-NF for lbickley at bickleywest.com; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:27:51 -0800 Hostname verified: huey.classiccmp.org inmotionhosting.com received mail from sending system 199.188.211.196 1: Received: from huey.classiccmp.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by huey.classiccmp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C3C2073F99; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:27:41 -0600 (CST) Internal handoff or trivial forgery 2: Received: from mx2.ezwind.net (unknown [172.20.1.95]) by huey.classiccmp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3BD2073F8F; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:27:38 -0600 (CST) Internal handoff or trivial forgery 3: Received: from mx2.ezwind.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.ezwind.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14D74E6AA; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:27:38 -0600 (CST) Internal handoff or trivial forgery 4: Received: from mailout.ish.de (mailout.ish.de [80.69.98.247]) by mx2.ezwind.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5855C4E6B4; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:27:37 -0600 (CST) Hostname verified: mailout.ish.de warning:Possible forgery. Supposed receiving system not associated with any of your mailhosts Will not trust this Received line. Tracking message source:199.188.211.196: Cached whois for 199.188.211.196 : noc at xiolink.com Using abuse net on noc at xiolink.com abuse net xiolink.com = abuse at xiolink.com Using best contacts abuse at xiolink.com warning:Yum, this spam is fresh! Message is 0 hours old 199.188.211.196 not listed in cbl.abuseat.org 199.188.211.196 not listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net Spam report id 6380971842 sent to: abuse at xiolink.com May be saved for future reference: http://www.spamcop.net/sc?id=z6193526037z09bcbf8ca61934833a230d5cac9df43dz Processing spam: From: katelists at trouts.org Subject: Fw: new message 0: Received: from huey.classiccmp.org ([199.188.211.196]:34299) by biz170.inmotionhosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1Zx1J4-002O8P-9m for lbickley at bickleywest.com; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:29:30 -0800 Hostname verified: huey.classiccmp.org inmotionhosting.com received mail from sending system 199.188.211.196 1: Received: from huey.classiccmp.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by huey.classiccmp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C13E2073F84; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:29:29 -0600 (CST) Internal handoff or trivial forgery 2: Received: from mx1.ezwind.net (unknown [172.20.1.26]) by huey.classiccmp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D542073F6B for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:29:27 -0600 (CST) Internal handoff or trivial forgery 3: Received: from mx1.ezwind.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.ezwind.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974C34E743 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:29:28 -0600 (CST) Internal handoff or trivial forgery 4: Received: from eu1.nethat.com (eu1.nethat.com [81.223.254.166]) by mx1.ezwind.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247FF4E718 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:29:27 -0600 (CST) Hostname verified: eu1.nethat.com warning:Possible forgery. Supposed receiving system not associated with any of your mailhosts Will not trust this Received line. Tracking message source:199.188.211.196: Cached whois for 199.188.211.196 : noc at xiolink.com Using abuse net on noc at xiolink.com abuse net xiolink.com = abuse at xiolink.com Using best contacts abuse at xiolink.com warning:Yum, this spam is fresh! Message is 0 hours old 199.188.211.196 not listed in cbl.abuseat.org 199.188.211.196 not listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net Spam report id 6380971843 sent to: abuse at xiolink.com -------------------------------------- Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jason at textfiles.com Thu Nov 12 23:42:03 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:42:03 -0500 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Naturally, Internet Archive will gladly host the files in any form. On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 10:51 PM, Jay West wrote: > I think bitsavers is the best spot for that type of thing. > > But if for whatever reason Al doesn't wish to, I'd be happy to put them at: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/ > > in the RT11 directory. > > There are already files and distributions of interest there. > > J > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 01:07:42 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 01:07:42 -0600 Subject: In Memoriam: Gene Amdahl 1922-2015 In-Reply-To: <807526742.3400194.1447381488220.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <807526742.3400194.1447381488220.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <807526742.3400194.1447381488220.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: this wound up in my spam box On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Christian Liendo < christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > http://m.cacm.acm.org/news/194192-in-memoriam-gene-amdahl-1922-2015/fulltext > > > Gene Amdahl, who formulated Amdahl's Law and worked with IBM and others on > developments related to mainframe computing, died recently from > complications of pneumonia. > > > American computer architect and high-tech entrepreneur Gene Myron Amdahl > died Tuesday at the age of 92. > > Amdahl?s wife Marian said he had suffered from Alzheimer?s disease for > about five years, before succumbing to pneumonia. "We are thankful for his > kind spirit and brilliant mind. He was a devout Christian and a loving > father and husband. I was blessed with having him as my husband and my best > friend. I praise God for His faithfulness to us for more than 69 years." > > Born to immigrant parents in South Dakota, Amdahl served in the U.S. Navy > during World War II. He completed a bachelor?s degree in engineering > physics at South Dakota State University in 1948 and went on to study > theoretical physics at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, where he > received his doctorate in 1952. > > Amdahl joined IBM in 1952, where he worked on the IBM 704, the IBM 709, > and then the Stretch project, the basis for the IBM 7030. He left IBM in > 1955 but returned in 1960 and became chief architect of the System/360 > mainframe computer. Amdahl was named an IBM Fellow in 1965, as well as head > of the IBM Advanced Computing Systems Laboratory in Menlo Park, CA. He left > IBM again in 1970 and set up Amdahl Corporation, which specialized in IBM > mainframe-compatible computer products, with the help of Fujitsu. > > The company manufactured "plug-compatible" mainframes, starting in 1975 > with the Amdahl 470V/6, a less-expensive, more-reliable, faster alternative > to IBM?s System 370/168. Amdahl's software team developed Virtual > Machine/Performance Enhancement (VM/PE) software to optimize the > performance of IBM's Multiple Virtual Storage (MVS) operating system when > running under IBM's VM operating system. Within four years, the corporation > had sold more than $1 billion of V6 and V7 mainframes and had more than > 6,000 employees worldwide. > > At ACM's Spring Joint Computer Conference in 1967, Amdahl participated in > a discussion on future architectural trends, arguing for performance > limitations in any special feature or mode introduced to new machines. This > resulted in what came to be known as Amdahl?s Law regarding sequential vs. > parallel processing. > > Amdahl left his company in 1979 to set up Trilogy Systems, an organization > aimed at designing an integrated chip for even cheaper mainframes. When the > chip development failed within months of the company's $60-million public > offering, Trilogy focused on developing its VLSI technology, which also did > not do well. In 1985 Trilogy was merged into microcomputer manufacturer > Elxsi (now Tata Elxsi), but poor results there had Amdahl leaving in 1989 > for a company he founded in 1987 to produce mid-sized mainframes, Andor > International, which had been driven into bankruptcy by production problems > and strong competition by 1995. > > In 1996 Amdahl co-founded Commercial Data Servers, again developing > mainframe-like machines but this time with new super-cooled processor > designs and aimed at physically smaller systems. The company, now known as > Xbridge Systems, develops software to scan mainframe datasets and database > tables for sensitive information such as credit card numbers, government > identification numbers, and medical diagnosis information. > > In November 2004, Amdahl was appointed to the board of advisors of > Massively Parallel Technologies, a Scottsdale, AZ, software engineering > firm. > > Amdahl was a member of the National Academy of Engineering and the > recipient of honorary doctorates from four institutions. He also was the > recipient of the IEEE?s Harry H. Goode Memorial Award, a Fellow of the > Computer History Museum, and recipient of the ACM Special Interest Group on > Design Automation (SIGDA) Pioneering Achievement Award. > > Said David Patterson, a professor of computer sciences at the University > of California, Berkeley, and a computer pioneer in his own right, "The IBM > System/360 was one of the greatest computer architectures of all time, > being both a tremendous technical success and business success. It invented > a computer family, which we would call binary compatibility today. When he > left to form his own company, his mainframes were binary compatible with > the System/360." > > Patterson noted the brief paper Amdahl submitted to ACM?s Spring Joint > Computer Conference "basically offering a critique to enthusiasts about the > parallel supercomputers of the era." He cited the beginning of that paper > as laying out the arguments for what became Amdahl's Law: > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 13 03:47:27 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:47:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Nov 2015, Tom Moss wrote: > I've never seen anything works on the sector level, but there are plenty of There is DITU (Disk-Image Transfer Utility) for MS-DOS, and it's free including C source code. I use it e.g. to image the hard disk of a DOS PC into a file (either network or parallel ZIP drive). ftp://ftp.oldskool.org/pub/misc/Hardware/IBM/PCjr%20magazines%20and%20resources/Software/Ditu/ I've modified the program a bit to support retries and TurboC. Christian From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 13 03:49:01 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:49:01 +0100 Subject: DECtape reliability? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2E79D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5644AFE1.9080105@pico-systems.com> <5644DF2F.4080809@bitsavers.org> <564504A1.5080704@update.uu.se> <2E86B52B-E6A2-445D-81C8-68D2FEDECB7A@comcast.net> <56452429.3050708@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC2E79D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5645B20D.70702@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-13 01:16, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Johnny Billquist > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:44 PM > >> However, that is still dealing with DECtapes. I'm curious about the >> ability to deal with LINCtapes, that don't use the same codes on the mark >> track (or whatever it was called, my memory fails me at the moment). > > Yes, "mark track". Thanks. I must be getting old. :-) >> The TD8E do not understand things at all, and everything have to be done >> in software, which is why I'm saying that it will actually deal with the >> LINCtape format if you want it to. > > Right. The TD8E only sees "single line passed" (= 3 bits of data + 1 bit > of mark) and "four lines passed" (= 12 bits of data + 1 mark code) and is > completely agnostic about the values. Yes, except it is of course kludgier than that, since DECtape mark codes are always 6 bits. The PDP-8 scheme of putting in 12 bit words means they do not align up with the mark codes easily. So, even more bit fiddling and packing... That's also why there are actually 129 12-bit words to a block, even though only 128 is used. (128 12-bit words are not evenly divisible by 18.) >> However, more "intelligent" controllers do all this processing of the >> mark track to identify start and end of block/tape, and all other >> processing, in the controller. Can you make them read out the contents >> and do the processing if you have different control codes? > > The state machine implemented in hardware for all the intelligent DECtape > controllers will not recognize the 4-bit LINCtape codes at all, since the > DECtape codes are 6 bits long. You'll just get a MARK Error. Thanks. That is what I sortof was suspecting. Interesting that the LINCtape use 4-bit codes. That makes it even more incompatible with DECtape. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From supervinx at libero.it Fri Nov 13 05:25:07 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:25:07 +0100 Subject: R: RE: ICL Quattro Message-ID: Hi! I'm currently located in southern Italy, near Bari. Feel free to contact me if you're nearby. You can mail me at supervinx at libero.it webmaster at supervinx.com Regards Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: Robert Jarratt Data:12/11/2015 21:38 (GMT+01:00) A: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Oggetto: RE: ICL Quattro > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of supervinx > Sent: 12 November 2015 07:21 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: ICL Quattro > > Hi! > I found an ICL Quattro desktop computer. > It looks in good shape, I had to repair only the PSU. > Powering it up, I see disk activity, but I haven't his (proprietary?) monitor. > On the back, I see a bunch of serial ports (DCE? DTE?) and a DB15 connector, I > guess for monitor/kbd attachment. > I tried to connect a terminal to the serial ports, with null modem and straight > settings, but I had no answers. > Do someone have some infos about the proprietary monitor/kbd port? > Can it be run without the original monitor/kbd system? > Or should I think about it as a... doorstopper? :D > > Thanks! > -- > Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) > > --==ooOoo==-- > My computer collection: > http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum > > --==ooOoo==-- > You can reach me at: > www.supervinx.com > www.facebook.com/supervinx > http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx > http://www.myspace.com/supervinx I can't help with the query unfortunately, but I would love to know where in Italy your collection is? In fact, it would be interesting to know where all the interesting collections in Italy are, as I do visit the country with some regularity. Annoyingly, I noticed just now that there is one near Siracusa, and I might have been able to visit that this past summer. Regards Rob From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 05:36:09 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:36:09 -0500 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: < On Nov 13, 2015 4:47 AM, "Christian Corti" wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Nov 2015, Tom Moss wrote: >> >> I've never seen anything works on the sector level, but there are plenty of > > > There is DITU (Disk-Image Transfer Utility) for MS-DOS, and it's free including C source code. I use it e.g. to image the hard disk of a DOS PC into a file (either network or parallel ZIP drive). > ftp://ftp.oldskool.org/pub/misc/Hardware/IBM/PCjr%20magazines%20and%20resources/Software/Ditu/ > I've modified the program a bit to support retries and TurboC. > > Christian I used to use a program called Laplink, which came with special serial and parallel option cables to transfer files from one dos machine to another. It was useful to "image" DOS computers with it. I don't think these were straight through cables and you needed the laplink software to be running on both sides. I see the cables on ebay, I picked up a set a few years ago to move contents of similar MS DOS system. Serial is much slower than parallel obviously. If you must use Linux, you may find something that emulates dos, or you can rewrite the receiving - end Linux equivalent of laplink if it has not already been done. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Nov 13 07:50:40 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:50:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: In Memoriam: Gene Amdahl 1922-2015 In-Reply-To: References: <807526742.3400194.1447381488220.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <807526742.3400194.1447381488220.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1594468743.3554092.1447422640900.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> > From: Adrian Stoness > this wound up in my spam box Do you think because of the link? From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Nov 13 07:51:55 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:51:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: In Memoriam: Gene Amdahl 1922-2015 In-Reply-To: References: <807526742.3400194.1447381488220.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <807526742.3400194.1447381488220.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1037566087.3536196.1447422715717.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Here is a New York Times Article on him http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/13/technology/gene-amdahl-pioneer-of-mainframe-computing-dies-at-92.html?_r=0 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 13 08:13:00 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:13:00 -0500 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> On 11/12/2015 10:25 PM, Jay West wrote: > Apologies, not sure how that got through. > > Maybe a listmember got address-book-malware. Will see if the headers reveal > anything that is easy to spot. > > J > > No worries. I know enough not to click on suspicious stuff like that... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 13 08:13:49 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 15:13:49 +0100 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5645F01D.6080305@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-13 12:36, william degnan wrote: > I used to use a program called Laplink, which came with special serial and > parallel option cables to transfer files from one dos machine to another. > It was useful to "image" DOS computers with it. Ah, thank you. I have been trying to remember that name since this thread started. I've used extremely little DOS, but I remember seeing LapLink in there. I think it could even bootstrap itself across a serial port to a different machine, as long as DOS was installed. And then it could copy pretty much everything else over. > I don't think these were straight through cables and you needed the laplink > software to be running on both sides. I see the cables on ebay, I picked > up a set a few years ago to move contents of similar MS DOS system. Serial > is much slower than parallel obviously. Actually, the cables were straight through. The nice thing was that the serial cable had both the DE9 and DB25 on both sides. And it was combined with a parallel cable as well. So you had two cables and three connectors on each side. (Well, by straight through I mean that they were null-model cables.) Johnny From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 13 10:25:49 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:25:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <5645F01D.6080305@update.uu.se> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <5645F01D.6080305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Nov 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: > (Well, by straight through I mean that they were null-model cables.) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 13 11:29:08 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:29:08 -0700 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/13/2015 7:13 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 11/12/2015 10:25 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Apologies, not sure how that got through. >> >> Maybe a listmember got address-book-malware. Will see if the headers >> reveal >> anything that is easy to spot. >> >> J >> >> > No worries. I know enough not to click on suspicious stuff like that... Windows new feature ... Auto Click Sigh. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 13 12:35:03 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:35:03 -0800 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> On 11/13/2015 09:29 AM, ben wrote: > Windows new feature ... Auto Click > Sigh. Oh, I don't know if that's a new feature. I recall getting a DSL modem and getting instructions to bring up Internet Explorer after the ethernet cable had been connected to my computer. Well, I don't normally use Windows, but I have a couple of systems with XP installed, so I dragged them out and plugged in the modem. I brought up IE8 without keying in a URL and viewed the display "Configuring your modem" was the message along with the pretty colors of the modem sender. Holy cow! It didn't even ask if I wanted to point the browser at the configuration page. Shades of COFEE. Does anyone else think that this is a great feature and not a security hole? --Chuck From cramcram at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 12:04:02 2015 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:04:02 -0800 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: No problem. Just make sure that emails from my friend the rich Nigerian prince get through! He's been talking to my banker at the UN. On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 7:25 PM, Jay West wrote: > Apologies, not sure how that got through. > > Maybe a listmember got address-book-malware. Will see if the headers reveal > anything that is easy to spot. > > J > > > From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Nov 13 13:22:51 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:22:51 +0100 Subject: Z8000 Assembler anyone? Message-ID: <20151113202251.Horde.F5iM_phVEsbbF0RtrTIe8OG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, is someone on the list able to write Z8000 PLZ/ASM code? I have an the following source: u module $segmented $abs %3E00F600 global _u array [%572 byte] end u The problem is, that it is vital that _u has to be located absolute on the virtual memory address 0x3E00F600. The problem is now, that the while the object is compiled, _u is available on 0x0100f600 and I have no clue why..... From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Nov 13 14:06:56 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:06:56 +0100 Subject: Z8000 Assembler anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151113202251.Horde.F5iM_phVEsbbF0RtrTIe8OG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20151113210656.Horde.nE6lhLr1fBBYTNmWxsnCkwA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, I found out so far, that %3e00.... means, that the data is put on segment 62 (0x3e). Regarding to the Z8000 ASM handbook, segmented adresses are notated as <>offset, so in my case <<62>>%F600 - but of course it does not work and the assembler yields and error :( Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > is someone on the list able to write Z8000 PLZ/ASM code? I have an > the following source: > > u module > $segmented > $abs %3E00F600 > > global > > _u array [%572 byte] > > end u > > The problem is, that it is vital that _u has to be located absolute > on the virtual memory address 0x3E00F600. The problem is now, that > the while the object is compiled, _u is available on 0x0100f600 and > I have no clue why..... From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 13 15:55:02 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:55:02 -0800 Subject: Z8000 Assembler anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151113210656.Horde.nE6lhLr1fBBYTNmWxsnCkwA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151113210656.Horde.nE6lhLr1fBBYTNmWxsnCkwA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <56465C36.6060808@jwsss.com> Putting things at an absolute address requires putting things into segments that are handle by the linker or loader (depending on what era you are working in). the linker may place the output of your assembler into different segments. They may be set up to be relocatable at run time (most OSs insist on this feature). Once you are dealing with either a debugger or loader, or OS you have to find out how to get that segment assigned to the space you desire in the absolute addressing space. Usually the assembler will have directives to direct things to I/O or such depending on the architecture. I'd use this info to see if you have any luck figuring out what you need to do. you didn't mention whether this is a cross assembly tool, or if you have a working Z8000 OS with the tool. Others may infer that by knowing more about the things you refer to. however working Z8000 systems running an OS are a bit rare these days. thanks Jim On 11/13/2015 12:06 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > I found out so far, that %3e00.... means, that the data is put on > segment 62 (0x3e). Regarding to the Z8000 ASM handbook, segmented > adresses are notated as <>offset, so in my case > <<62>>%F600 - but of course it does not work and the assembler > yields and error :( > > > Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> is someone on the list able to write Z8000 PLZ/ASM code? I have an >> the following source: >> >> u module >> $segmented >> $abs %3E00F600 >> >> global >> >> _u array [%572 byte] >> >> end u >> >> The problem is, that it is vital that _u has to be located absolute >> on the virtual memory address 0x3E00F600. The problem is now, that >> the while the object is compiled, _u is available on 0x0100f600 and >> I have no clue why..... > > > From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Nov 13 16:30:41 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 23:30:41 +0100 Subject: Z8000 Assembler anyone? In-Reply-To: <56465C36.6060808@jwsss.com> References: <20151113210656.Horde.nE6lhLr1fBBYTNmWxsnCkwA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56465C36.6060808@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20151113233041.Horde.7PQo832sNZ_jTLb07JTMph6@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, it is a working Z8000 system with a ZEUS clone (SYSIII UNIX). Somehow the assembler must be able to put the segment information for the absolute adress of this array in the object. No idea how tho, as $abs will only work on segment 1. I have the original .o file from Zilog and there is the fixed adress already in it. But no idea how they did it. The assembler can not be called with a segment number to work on. The linker can, but the linker is not involved in creating the .o file.... the original object from the system: #67 nm /usr/sys/conf/u.o 3e00f600 A _u 01000000 s u_d 0000 s u_p my object generated from my u.s: #68 nm u.o 0100f600 A _u 01000000 s u_d 0000 s u_p Regards, Oliver jwsmobile wrote: > Putting things at an absolute address requires putting things into > segments that are handle by the linker or loader (depending on what > era you are working in). > > the linker may place the output of your assembler into different > segments. They may be set up to be relocatable at run time (most > OSs insist on this feature). > > Once you are dealing with either a debugger or loader, or OS you > have to find out how to get that segment assigned to the space you > desire in the absolute addressing space. > > Usually the assembler will have directives to direct things to I/O > or such depending on the architecture. > > I'd use this info to see if you have any luck figuring out what you > need to do. > > you didn't mention whether this is a cross assembly tool, or if you > have a working Z8000 OS with the tool. > > Others may infer that by knowing more about the things you refer to. > however working Z8000 systems running an OS are a bit rare these > days. > > thanks > Jim > > > On 11/13/2015 12:06 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I found out so far, that %3e00.... means, that the data is put on >> segment 62 (0x3e). Regarding to the Z8000 ASM handbook, segmented >> adresses are notated as <>offset, so in my case >> <<62>>%F600 - but of course it does not work and the assembler >> yields and error :( >> >> >> Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> is someone on the list able to write Z8000 PLZ/ASM code? I have an >>> the following source: >>> >>> u module >>> $segmented >>> $abs %3E00F600 >>> >>> global >>> >>> _u array [%572 byte] >>> >>> end u >>> >>> The problem is, that it is vital that _u has to be located absolute >>> on the virtual memory address 0x3E00F600. The problem is now, that >>> the while the object is compiled, _u is available on 0x0100f600 and >>> I have no clue why..... >> >> >> From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 16:45:17 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 14:45:17 -0800 Subject: Software for small-memory PDP-11s? Message-ID: Hey all -- Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely, I'm curious what others are running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems. I have only 8KW of memory (with no viable options for expansion) and there's not much out there that I've found. There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty cool if a bit cumbersome. Any other suggestions? I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out) and I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe is the earliest version with TU58 support. (V3B seems to be different enough from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.) Thanks as always, Josh From js at cimmeri.com Fri Nov 13 16:52:30 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:52:30 -0500 Subject: Software for small-memory PDP-11s? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564669AE.30803@cimmeri.com> On 11/13/2015 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely, What did you end up doing to arrive at that functionality? Did I miss some emails? > I'm curious what others are > running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played > with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems. I have only 8KW of memory > (with no viable options for expansion) Can't MOS memory be put on the Unibus in an expansion chassis? > and there's not much out there that > I've found. There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and > PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty cool > if a bit cumbersome. Any other suggestions? > > I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be > made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I > can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest > that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out) and > I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe is > the earliest version with TU58 support. (V3B seems to be different enough > from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.) > > Thanks as always, > Josh > > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 17:43:36 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 15:43:36 -0800 Subject: Software for small-memory PDP-11s? In-Reply-To: <564669AE.30803@cimmeri.com> References: <564669AE.30803@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 2:52 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 11/13/2015 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Hey all -- >> >> Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely, >> > > What did you end up doing to arrive at that functionality? Did I miss > some emails? Total issues over the past year or so were: - Power supply needed some work. - CPU non-functional: traced down to a pair of microcode PROMs with bitrot; regenerated PROM images from the original service manual scans on Bitsavers. (Ugh) - Dead 128 word region in 8KW core plane: Traced down to a broken wire on the core mat; unfixable (by me at any rate). Lucked into a cheap (and fortunately working!) replacement on eBay a couple of weeks back. - Bad Boxer fan (completely dead, likely the cause of the PROM failures due to overheating many years back...) - Failing diagnostics: traced down to operator error on my part (misjumpered SLU interrupt vector). > > > > I'm curious what others are >> running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played >> with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems. I have only 8KW of >> memory >> (with no viable options for expansion) >> > Can't MOS memory be put on the Unibus in an expansion chassis? Yes. "viable" in this case translates to "I have the parts on hand, or parts are easy to come by." Thanks, - Josh > > > > and there's not much out there that >> I've found. There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and >> PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty >> cool >> if a bit cumbersome. Any other suggestions? >> >> I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be >> made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I >> can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest >> that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out) >> and >> I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe >> is >> the earliest version with TU58 support. (V3B seems to be different enough >> from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.) >> >> Thanks as always, >> Josh >> >> >> From trash80 at internode.on.net Fri Nov 13 18:43:28 2015 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:43:28 +1100 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <56455902.4060506@compsys.to> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <56455902.4060506@compsys.to> Message-ID: <000801d11e75$7ae06bf0$70a143d0$@internode.on.net> Here Here!!!!! Good work Jay!!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine Sent: Friday, 13 November 2015 2:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fw: new message >Jay West wrote: >Apologies, not sure how that got through. > >Maybe a listmember got address-book-malware. Will see if the headers >reveal anything that is easy to spot. > So few get through that the VERY rare exception is a credit to your diligence and choice of a great filter. And as many of us all too often forget to say: THANK YOU FOR A GREAT SERVICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jerome Fine From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 19:08:47 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:08:47 -0600 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <56452650.7050106@sydex.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <56452650.7050106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5646899F.9040907@gmail.com> On 11/12/2015 05:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/12/2015 01:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up >> an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to >> a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options >> exist) >> >> I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of >> thing that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in >> the past. >> >> I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from >> a given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor >> intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send >> everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for >> retrying bad sectors. > > > Any particular reason that RS232C has to be the linkup? Just lowest common denominator and based on what I have sitting around here (e.g. I don't have any MCA Ethernet boards, or ISA ones that will work on an 8 bit XT-type bus, only 16 bit). > There are plenty > of external drives that can use the parallel port with regular software. > For example, hook up a ZIP drive. Hmm, I *might* know where there's one of those available - I'm not sure about cartridges, though (or if it's actually in working condition). The backup operation would certainly be quicker, and I am a bit concerned whether some of the old ST506/412 drives that I have will remain running for the length of time needed to do a serial transfer. > Alternatively, you could boot DOS from floppy with INTERLINK/INTERSVR > installed and use another DOS/WIN machine to do your backup. My assumption there was that Interlink needs a newer version of DOS, and that some of these systems that I have may be incompatible, but maybe it's worth me putting that to the test. > I'm certain that options abound. Yes, I'm sure - just figured I'd ask here as it seems like the sort of nut that will already have been cracked :-) Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make significant use of hard disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them *just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where it's all so incredibly dull) cheers Jules From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 19:10:56 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:10:56 -0800 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <5646899F.9040907@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <56452650.7050106@sydex.com> <5646899F.9040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 11/12/2015 05:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 11/12/2015 01:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> >>> > Alternatively, you could boot DOS from floppy with INTERLINK/INTERSVR >> installed and use another DOS/WIN machine to do your backup. >> > > My assumption there was that Interlink needs a newer version of DOS, and > that some of these systems that I have may be incompatible, but maybe it's > worth me putting that to the test. FWIW, DOS 6.xx will boot on anything 100% PC-compatible, 8088 on up, and it shouldn't have a problem reading filesystems created by earlier DOS versions. Assuming you can write a bootable floppy and get INTERLNK onto it, that would probably be the easiest option. - Josh > > > I'm certain that options abound. >> > > Yes, I'm sure - just figured I'd ask here as it seems like the sort of nut > that will already have been cracked :-) > > Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make significant use of hard > disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite > as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them > *just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot > of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where > it's all so incredibly dull) > > cheers > > Jules > > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 19:34:29 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:34:29 -0800 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <5646899F.9040907@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <56452650.7050106@sydex.com> <5646899F.9040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make significant use of hard > disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite > as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them > *just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot > of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where > it's all so incredibly dull) > > Vintage PCs are ot my field of expertise, so just a random thought.. Could you put a 2nd disk drive in the machine, and copy the disk image to it? -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 13 23:56:32 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:56:32 -0800 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <56452650.7050106@sydex.com> <5646899F.9040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5646CD10.60304@sydex.com> On 11/13/2015 05:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > FWIW, DOS 6.xx will boot on anything 100% PC-compatible, 8088 on up, and it > shouldn't have a problem reading filesystems created by earlier DOS > versions. Assuming you can write a bootable floppy and get INTERLNK onto > it, that would probably be the easiest option. A couple of weeks ago, I dug out an old XT with a Quantum Q540 drive in it. It didn't want to start at first, but a couple of tapes on the side of the HDA caused the drive to spin up and come ready. Not wanting to tempt fate, I copied over the Interlink files from DOS 6.2 onto the XT system and booted a P3 system here running Win98SE and connected them with a Laplink parallel cable (I've still got a box of them). I think I ran interlnk on the XT and intersvr on the 98SE one (or maybe it was the reverse). At any rate I discovered that it was indeed possible to transfer files over even though the XT was running DOS 4.00 and the 98SE was running from a FAT32 partition. So yes, it can be done. Just in case, I also had a network card in the XT (an Artisoft AE/2T) and MSLANMAN ready. But I didn't need it. I do hope the Q540 will keep running for at least another decade, but if it doesn't, I've got the files backed up. I can always run it with an XTIDE card and a small CF card, if worse comes to worst. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Nov 14 08:28:22 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 09:28:22 -0500 Subject: Software for small-memory PDP-11s? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 13, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Hey all -- > > Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely, I'm curious what others are > running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played > with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems. I have only 8KW of memory > (with no viable options for expansion) and there's not much out there that > I've found. There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and > PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty cool > if a bit cumbersome. Any other suggestions? > > I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be > made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I > can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest > that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out) and > I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe is > the earliest version with TU58 support. (V3B seems to be different enough > from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.) RT11 V2 SJ will certainly fit easily in that size memory. DOS will fit even in 4K (at least the older versions). Come to think of it, RT might also; I haven't tried it that small. paul From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Nov 14 09:04:50 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:04:50 -0500 Subject: [SPAM key] - Re: Software for small-memory PDP-11s? In-Reply-To: <8aa5392d-b674-4569-8bfd-19ed87a4dc52@classiccmp.org> References: <8aa5392d-b674-4569-8bfd-19ed87a4dc52@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56474D92.1070606@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: >>On Nov 13, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>Hey all -- >> >>Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely, I'm curious what others are >>running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played >>with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems. I have only 8KW of memory >>(with no viable options for expansion) and there's not much out there that >>I've found. There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and >>PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty cool >>if a bit cumbersome. Any other suggestions? >> >>I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be >>made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I >>can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest >>that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out) and >>I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe is >>the earliest version with TU58 support. (V3B seems to be different enough >>from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.) >> >> > >RT11 V2 SJ will certainly fit easily in that size memory. DOS will fit even in 4K (at least the older versions). Come to think of it, RT might also; I haven't tried it that small. > > paul > NOTE: I don't have a real PDP-11/05. All my tests were done under Ersatz-11. I just tried to boot V04.00 of RT-11 on a PDP-11/05 using an RK05 device (RK:) under the RT11SJ.SYS monitor. First I set the memory to 32 KB (16KW) and it worked quite well. Then I tried with 16 KB (8KW) and while it did boot, during the boot process of V04.00 of RT-11, I did see the error message: Insufficient Memory On the other hand, I was able to perform a DIR and a few other tests which did work. I then attempted to confirm with V2 and 16 KB of memory and that also worked with the RK05 device. Obviously, it is not possible to do very much with just 16 KB (8KW) of memory. As for support for the TU58 device (DD:), I also attempted that and came up empty. using V3B of RT-11. The V3B distribution which I have does not seem to support the TU58 since RT-11 crashes when I attempt to use the TU58 device. There may be some bad code in RT-11 when the TU58 is used with a PDP-11/05. I just don't have the resources in the time that is available to find out. Josh, you don't mention if you have a disk drive of any kind on the PDP-11/05, It would help if you could describe all of the available hardware. If the TU58 is the only "disk drive" available, then I am not sure what to suggest in order to get RT-11 to run in any case. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Nov 14 09:07:24 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:07:24 -0500 Subject: Software for small-memory PDP-11s? In-Reply-To: <8aa5392d-b674-4569-8bfd-19ed87a4dc52@classiccmp.org> References: <8aa5392d-b674-4569-8bfd-19ed87a4dc52@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56474E2C.2060606@compsys.to> Sorry I forgot to remove the SPAM KEY notice thsat my e-mail places there!!!! >Paul Koning wrote: >>On Nov 13, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>Hey all -- >> >>Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely, I'm curious what others are >>running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played >>with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems. I have only 8KW of memory >>(with no viable options for expansion) and there's not much out there that >>I've found. There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and >>PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty cool >>if a bit cumbersome. Any other suggestions? >> >>I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be >>made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I >>can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest >>that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out) and >>I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe is >>the earliest version with TU58 support. (V3B seems to be different enough >>from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.) >> >> > >RT11 V2 SJ will certainly fit easily in that size memory. DOS will fit even in 4K (at least the older versions). Come to think of it, RT might also; I haven't tried it that small. > > paul > NOTE: I don't have a real PDP-11/05. All my tests were done under Ersatz-11. I just tried to boot V04.00 of RT-11 on a PDP-11/05 using an RK05 device (RK:) under the RT11SJ.SYS monitor. First I set the memory to 32 KB (16KW) and it worked quite well. Then I tried with 16 KB (8KW) and while it did boot, during the boot process of V04.00 of RT-11, I did see the error message: Insufficient Memory On the other hand, I was able to perform a DIR and a few other tests which did work. I then attempted to confirm with V2 and 16 KB of memory and that also worked with the RK05 device. Obviously, it is not possible to do very much with just 16 KB (8KW) of memory. As for support for the TU58 device (DD:), I also attempted that and came up empty. using V3B of RT-11. The V3B distribution which I have does not seem to support the TU58 since RT-11 crashes when I attempt to use the TU58 device. There may be some bad code in RT-11 when the TU58 is used with a PDP-11/05. I just don't have the resources in the time that is available to find out. Josh, you don't mention if you have a disk drive of any kind on the PDP-11/05, It would help if you could describe all of the available hardware. If the TU58 is the only "disk drive" available, then I am not sure what to suggest in order to get RT-11 to run in any case. Jerome Fine From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 09:52:47 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 09:52:47 -0600 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <5646CD10.60304@sydex.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <56452650.7050106@sydex.com> <5646899F.9040907@gmail.com> <5646CD10.60304@sydex.com> Message-ID: <564758CF.2060000@gmail.com> On 11/13/2015 11:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > connected them with a Laplink parallel cable (I've still got a box of > them). Roughly what length are the cables? And do you know if they do anything special internally regarding shielding of the data lines? I think I should probably wire one up, and I have various old printer cables etc. laying around to use for donor parts, but I expect that data skew is a problem over any significant distance. (I'm not sure if a clone of intersvr exists for Linux, but I *think* I can run dosemu and map it to the native parallel port anyway) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 14 10:33:33 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 08:33:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <564758CF.2060000@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <56452650.7050106@sydex.com> <5646899F.9040907@gmail.com> <5646CD10.60304@sydex.com> <564758CF.2060000@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> connected them with a Laplink parallel cable (I've still got a box of >> them). On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > Roughly what length are the cables? And do you know if they do anything > special internally regarding shielding of the data lines? They, and those of other similar products, were 3 to 6 feet long. There is no special shielding requirement up to about 10 feet, or unless you have extreme electrical noise next to them. > I think I should probably wire one up, and I have various old printer cables > etc. laying around to use for donor parts, but I expect that data skew is a > problem over any significant distance. So, bring the two computers to within 10 feet of each other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LapLink_cable Before MICROS~1 included an imitation in MS-DOS 6.00, . . . Traveling Software created "Laplink" From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 14 10:37:38 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 08:37:38 -0800 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <564758CF.2060000@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <56452650.7050106@sydex.com> <5646899F.9040907@gmail.com> <5646CD10.60304@sydex.com> <564758CF.2060000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56476352.8040601@sydex.com> On 11/14/2015 07:52 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/13/2015 11:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> connected them with a Laplink parallel cable (I've still got a box of >> them). > > Roughly what length are the cables? And do you know if they do anything > special internally regarding shielding of the data lines? For my own product, way back in the dark old days, I designed one from scratch and contracted for a couple hundred from a cable house. When Laplink came out, I was surprised to find that it used exactly my setup. How's that for coincidence? So I changed my further orders to use the commodity LL cables--at about half the price. Not as rugged as my design, but they worked fine. Interlink uses the same cable. All were 2m in length. I think 12 conductor commodity foil-shielded cable will do the trick. Basically, you've got 4 data lines in each direction, plus strobe and ground. It is possible (I don't know if Interlink supports it) with PS/2 style bidirectional printer ports, to do a full 8 bit transfer in both directions, but it can get touchy on setup. The 4-bit cables nearly always work. So a length of cable, 2 DB25M connectors and Bob's your uncle. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/142324 MIcrosoft calls/called it "Direct Cable Connection" and is supported through Windows XP (Vista dropped it). --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Nov 14 10:44:08 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:44:08 -0500 Subject: Software for small-memory PDP-11s? In-Reply-To: <56474E2C.2060606@compsys.to> References: <8aa5392d-b674-4569-8bfd-19ed87a4dc52@classiccmp.org> <56474E2C.2060606@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4E4D4595-17FA-4CCB-82CB-2CD4610EDFA2@comcast.net> > On Nov 14, 2015, at 10:07 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > ... > I then attempted to confirm with V2 and 16 KB of > memory and that also worked with the RK05 device. > Obviously, it is not possible to do very much with > just 16 KB (8KW) of memory. Actually, 8 kW is quite functional with V2. I used it in college, with RT Basic and that worked just fine. Software development ditto; I'm pretty sure I did editing and assembling and the like on that system. Presumably with TECO, and of course RT MACRO and LINK. I made significant mods to that BASIC, and also added an RC11 driver to RT11. I believe I used the SJ version, but I'm not entirely sure. The FB version is certainly larger overall, but I don't remember anymore if it requires more memory just for the resident OS. (I don't expect the foreground feature to be all that practical in such small memory, though, not unless the foreground program is quite small.) paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 12:06:32 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 13:06:32 -0500 Subject: Software for small-memory PDP-11s? In-Reply-To: <4E4D4595-17FA-4CCB-82CB-2CD4610EDFA2@comcast.net> References: <8aa5392d-b674-4569-8bfd-19ed87a4dc52@classiccmp.org> <56474E2C.2060606@compsys.to> <4E4D4595-17FA-4CCB-82CB-2CD4610EDFA2@comcast.net> Message-ID: > > What is the card inventory of the 11/05? I can attempt to reproduce here. I have an RL02 available to attempt RT11, 11/05 open on the table. Bil From davemaho at rcn.com Sat Nov 14 11:07:12 2015 From: davemaho at rcn.com (davemaho at rcn.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 12:07:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: OMNIBUS PDP-8 for sale? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <930518624.12959108.1447520832578.JavaMail.root@rcn.com> Tom, I have two complete systems with everything, lots of extra boards, that I'm willing to sell. I also happen to have two VT100 series terminals, an RX02 subsystem, and an RX01 subsystem. Plus, I have a complete VT278 (DECmate I) with OS278 and WPS-8. One 8/E system has the cover, the other has everything but the cover, and I can configure as you would like. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Moss" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:25:20 PM Subject: OMNIBUS PDP-8 for sale? I'm after an 8/E, F, or M (with full panel). It doesn't need to be well equipped, just enough to run OS/8 from RX01/2s (I don't need the drives). Does anyone have one they'd part with? I'm prepared to match the average ebay selling price. -Tom From ats at offog.org Sat Nov 14 12:28:48 2015 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 18:28:48 +0000 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> (Jules Richardson's message of "Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:54:10 -0600") References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules Richardson writes: > As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an > x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a > remote system? I used to like TwinExpress, which has both MS-DOS and Amiga versions. Maybe it'd run under DOSBox? http://aminet.net/package/misc/emu/TWINEXPRESS It's filesystem-based rather than block-based, though. And I suspect you might have some difficulty registering it now, although the shareware demo version is perfectly functional... -- Adam Sampson From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 12:48:55 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:48:55 -0800 Subject: Software for small-memory PDP-11s? In-Reply-To: <56474E2C.2060606@compsys.to> References: <8aa5392d-b674-4569-8bfd-19ed87a4dc52@classiccmp.org> <56474E2C.2060606@compsys.to> Message-ID: <56478217.6000200@gmail.com> On 11/14/15 7:07 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Sorry I forgot to remove the SPAM KEY notice thsat my e-mail places > there!!!! > > > >Paul Koning wrote: > >>> On Nov 13, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> Hey all -- >>> >>> Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely, I'm curious what others >>> are >>> running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played >>> with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems. I have only 8KW of >>> memory >>> (with no viable options for expansion) and there's not much out >>> there that >>> I've found. There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and >>> FOCAL, and >>> PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is >>> pretty cool >>> if a bit cumbersome. Any other suggestions? >>> >>> I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 >>> could be >>> made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in >>> theory I >>> can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals >>> suggest >>> that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this >>> out) and >>> I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I >>> believe is >>> the earliest version with TU58 support. (V3B seems to be different >>> enough >>> from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process >>> works.) >>> >> >> RT11 V2 SJ will certainly fit easily in that size memory. DOS will >> fit even in 4K (at least the older versions). Come to think of it, >> RT might also; I haven't tried it that small. >> >> paul >> > NOTE: I don't have a real PDP-11/05. All my tests > were done under Ersatz-11. > > I just tried to boot V04.00 of RT-11 on a PDP-11/05 > using an RK05 device (RK:) under the RT11SJ.SYS > monitor. First I set the memory to 32 KB (16KW) > and it worked quite well. Then I tried with 16 KB > (8KW) and while it did boot, during the boot process > of V04.00 of RT-11, I did see the error message: > > Insufficient Memory > > On the other hand, I was able to perform a DIR > and a few other tests which did work. It's interesting; I tried the same thing and while it worked under simh booting from RK05, when I tried it on the real thing (after changing the boot device to DD:) it fails with: "?BOOT-U-Insufficient memory" And halts. I'm unsure what would cause the discrepancy; simh doesn't appear to support the TU58 for the PDP-11 so I can't verify, but perhaps the DD: driver requires more memory. (And yes, I've tested the 8KW memory in the 11/05 extensively, it's all there and working :)). > > I then attempted to confirm with V2 and 16 KB of > memory and that also worked with the RK05 device. > Obviously, it is not possible to do very much with > just 16 KB (8KW) of memory. > > As for support for the TU58 device (DD:), I also > attempted that and came up empty. using V3B > of RT-11. The V3B distribution which I have > does not seem to support the TU58 since RT-11 > crashes when I attempt to use the TU58 device. > > There may be some bad code in RT-11 when the > TU58 is used with a PDP-11/05. I just don't have > the resources in the time that is available to find out. > > Josh, you don't mention if you have a disk drive > of any kind on the PDP-11/05, It would help > if you could describe all of the available hardware. > If the TU58 is the only "disk drive" available, then > I am not sure what to suggest in order to get RT-11 > to run in any case. What I have available (that will work/fit in an 11/05 lacking a UNIBUS expansion chassis) are two SLUs and an RX02 controller. I was hoping to bootstrap over TU58 and then see what I can do to get a system running off of the RX02 (which will require V4.0 for the DY: driver). It might just be easier to build an RX02 image on simh and try copying it to the '11 over the SLU. Have to cobble some code together to do that... - Josh > > Jerome Fine > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 13:28:58 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:28:58 +0100 Subject: Compulog Two Intercole Systems PAC 16 Message-ID: Anyone know more about this old 16 bit computer / controller? http://i.imgur.com/utUfMQe.jpg According to the current owner it is based on a 16 bit machine made by Computer Automation. It has core memory and is programmed in assembler and Fortran. It is from the late seventies. I found very little while searching the net. Intercole systems seems to still be in operation. PAC 16 could relate to Varisystems corp which I found in this document: ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/topic/minicomputer/ComputerDesign_Apr71.pdf In any case the Varisystems PAC 16 seems to be a rather simple 16 bit machine. But is this the same? And is Varisystems related with Computer Automation somehow? Any information is appreciated. Is it worth rescuing it? Any software to look for? The current owner has loads of 8 inch floppies. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Nov 14 15:50:25 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 13:50:25 -0800 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> One of the TRS-80 Model II enthusiasts has recently set up an archive of Model II/12/16/6000 software and documentation on GitHub: https://github.com/pski/model2archive Perhaps a similar, structured and curated archive for RT-11 materials would be awesome? This method makes it very easy for anybody to locally mirror the archive, and it provides a complete history of changes to the archive over time. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 14 16:41:26 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 23:41:26 +0100 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-14 22:50, Mark J. Blair wrote: > One of the TRS-80 Model II enthusiasts has recently set up an archive of Model II/12/16/6000 software and documentation on GitHub: > > https://github.com/pski/model2archive > > Perhaps a similar, structured and curated archive for RT-11 materials would be awesome? This method makes it very easy for anybody to locally mirror the archive, and it provides a complete history of changes to the archive over time. Not to put people down, but just reminding people that this software is not "free". It is still owned by someone... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Nov 14 16:45:23 2015 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 22:45:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Compulog Two Intercole Systems PAC 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2061111604.4952705.1447541123827.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> >According to the current owner it is based on a 16 bit machine made by >Computer Automation. It has core memory and is programmed in assembler and >Fortran. It is from the late seventies. The packaging doesn't look like anything from Computer Automation, but they made a line of board-level components they called "The Naked Mini", sold to OEMs for integration into their own packaging.? The architecture is probably similar to the Alpha-16 and Alpha LSI machines. --Bill From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 17:08:57 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 00:08:57 +0100 Subject: Compulog Two Intercole Systems PAC 16 In-Reply-To: <2061111604.4952705.1447541123827.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2061111604.4952705.1447541123827.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2015-11-14 23:45 GMT+01:00 William Maddox : > > >According to the current owner it is based on a 16 bit machine made by > >Computer Automation. It has core memory and is programmed in assembler and > >Fortran. It is from the late seventies. > The packaging doesn't look like anything from Computer Automation, but > they made a line of board-level components they called "The Naked Mini", > sold to OEMs for integration into their own packaging. The architecture is > probably similar to the Alpha-16 and Alpha LSI machines. > You are probably right. I did a closer study of the Alpha-16 reference manual. The Alpha-16 front panel has more or less exactly the same switches and lights as this machine. > --Bill > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Nov 14 17:15:02 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 23:15:02 +0000 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> We have been through this loop before I believe. Didn't DEC sell the PDP-11 rights to Mentec and from there they passed to a mysterious unnamed individual. Is owned by unknown a legal status? Rod Smallwood On 14/11/15 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-11-14 22:50, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> One of the TRS-80 Model II enthusiasts has recently set up an archive >> of Model II/12/16/6000 software and documentation on GitHub: >> >> https://github.com/pski/model2archive >> >> Perhaps a similar, structured and curated archive for RT-11 materials >> would be awesome? This method makes it very easy for anybody to >> locally mirror the archive, and it provides a complete history of >> changes to the archive over time. > > Not to put people down, but just reminding people that this software > is not "free". It is still owned by someone... > > Johnny > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Nov 14 17:23:54 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 15:23:54 -0800 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> I have no interest in causing any deliberate harm to whoever may hold the rights to RT-11, but I am curious about whether the rights holder has shown any interest in preserving old RT-11 code and documentation that has no current commercial value. I would very much hate to see such stuff lost forever, and strongly feel that it should be preserved now to ensure that it will still exist at some future time when it either passes into public domain or becomes legally owned by somebody interested in preserving it. From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sat Nov 14 17:49:35 2015 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 15:49:35 -0800 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: A parallel port based solution is widely usable and portable too. A parallel port Zip drive with the PalmZip drivers will work even on an 8088 class machine. A Xircom PE3 Ethernet adapter will give you network access at speeds over 30KB/sec when on the slowest machines without even having to open the case. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Nov 14 17:56:09 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 23:56:09 +0000 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> I am of the opinion that RT,RSX M & D etc could be dealt with in exactly the same way as the very successful OpenVMS Hobbyists program. Its free but you need to be a member of a recognized group. In my case HPUG. I'm also classed as a HP pensioner due to my DEC service. One thing that has always interested me was could you build the next generation of PDP-11.'s I have an example of an 11/94 which was pretty much the end of the line. So no DEC CPU parts allowed. DEC form factor boards and connectors, No Mentec boards Physical Q-Bus No Emulations - Runs say RT native. Rod Smallwood On 14/11/15 23:23, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I have no interest in causing any deliberate harm to whoever may hold the rights to RT-11, but I am curious about whether the rights holder has shown any interest in preserving old RT-11 code and documentation that has no current commercial value. I would very much hate to see such stuff lost forever, and strongly feel that it should be preserved now to ensure that it will still exist at some future time when it either passes into public domain or becomes legally owned by somebody interested in preserving it. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 18:12:36 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 19:12:36 -0500 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <5645F01D.6080305@update.uu.se> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <5645F01D.6080305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Nov 13, 2015 9:13 AM, "Johnny Billquist" wrote: > > On 2015-11-13 12:36, william degnan wrote: >> >> I used to use a program called Laplink, which came with special serial and >> parallel option cables to transfer files from one dos machine to another. >> It was useful to "image" DOS computers with it. > > > Ah, thank you. I have been trying to remember that name since this thread started. I've used extremely little DOS, but I remember seeing LapLink in there. I think it could even bootstrap itself across a serial port to a different machine, as long as DOS was installed. And then it could copy pretty much everything else over. > > I have a copy of the laplink software should anyone need it. If the cable for parallel is just a null modem I suggest a person in this hobby definitely add laplink to the bag of tricks available. You just fire it up on both ends ll.exe ... and you'll see a directory tree of target machine on the right, the source machine on the left. Pick files and copy. Copies recursively etc. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 18:36:24 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 00:36:24 +0000 Subject: Z8000 Assembler anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151113233041.Horde.7PQo832sNZ_jTLb07JTMph6@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151113210656.Horde.nE6lhLr1fBBYTNmWxsnCkwA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56465C36.6060808@jwsss.com>, <20151113233041.Horde.7PQo832sNZ_jTLb07JTMph6@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: You might check with Chris Groessler at Chris at groessler.org. He has an assembler that you should be able to run that should be able to switch from non-segmented to segmented. I have an assembler on my M20 but it only allows non-segmented code. I suspect to protect the OS. It has a funny memory model that separates the physical memory of instruction form the data. This gives 128K in non-segmented but it is confusing to debug because the segment address of the instructions is not the same as the address where the instructions are fetched from. The debugger needs read/write and the instruction space is read only. A handle in a hardware memory manager. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Oliver Lehmann Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 2:30 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Z8000 Assembler anyone? Hi, it is a working Z8000 system with a ZEUS clone (SYSIII UNIX). Somehow the assembler must be able to put the segment information for the absolute adress of this array in the object. No idea how tho, as $abs will only work on segment 1. I have the original .o file from Zilog and there is the fixed adress already in it. But no idea how they did it. The assembler can not be called with a segment number to work on. The linker can, but the linker is not involved in creating the .o file.... the original object from the system: #67 nm /usr/sys/conf/u.o 3e00f600 A _u 01000000 s u_d 0000 s u_p my object generated from my u.s: #68 nm u.o 0100f600 A _u 01000000 s u_d 0000 s u_p Regards, Oliver jwsmobile wrote: > Putting things at an absolute address requires putting things into > segments that are handle by the linker or loader (depending on what > era you are working in). > > the linker may place the output of your assembler into different > segments. They may be set up to be relocatable at run time (most > OSs insist on this feature). > > Once you are dealing with either a debugger or loader, or OS you > have to find out how to get that segment assigned to the space you > desire in the absolute addressing space. > > Usually the assembler will have directives to direct things to I/O > or such depending on the architecture. > > I'd use this info to see if you have any luck figuring out what you > need to do. > > you didn't mention whether this is a cross assembly tool, or if you > have a working Z8000 OS with the tool. > > Others may infer that by knowing more about the things you refer to. > however working Z8000 systems running an OS are a bit rare these > days. > > thanks > Jim > > > On 11/13/2015 12:06 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I found out so far, that %3e00.... means, that the data is put on >> segment 62 (0x3e). Regarding to the Z8000 ASM handbook, segmented >> adresses are notated as <>offset, so in my case >> <<62>>%F600 - but of course it does not work and the assembler >> yields and error :( >> >> >> Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> is someone on the list able to write Z8000 PLZ/ASM code? I have an >>> the following source: >>> >>> u module >>> $segmented >>> $abs %3E00F600 >>> >>> global >>> >>> _u array [%572 byte] >>> >>> end u >>> >>> The problem is, that it is vital that _u has to be located absolute >>> on the virtual memory address 0x3E00F600. The problem is now, that >>> the while the object is compiled, _u is available on 0x0100f600 and >>> I have no clue why..... >> >> >> From bpettitx at comcast.net Sat Nov 14 18:38:06 2015 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 16:38:06 -0800 Subject: Data I/O 120 Message-ID: <7E60A21FAB0644D2A78E781E86E4CA33@RosemarysPC> Does anyone on list have a copy of the schematics for the Data I/O 120 gang programmer? I'm willing to buy the schematics or pay for a copy to be made. Billy Pettit bpettitx at comcast.net From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Nov 14 18:56:31 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 16:56:31 -0800 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> > On Nov 14, 2015, at 15:56, rod wrote: > > I am of the opinion that RT,RSX M & D etc could be dealt with in exactly the same way as the very successful OpenVMS Hobbyists program. Has anybody contacted the RT-11 rights holder to see if they might be interested in a program like that? I think it could only work with their blessing and cooperation. From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Nov 14 19:09:13 2015 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 02:09:13 +0100 Subject: Boundless terminals (was: VT100 - FUN) In-Reply-To: <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> Message-ID: <20151115010913.GA16885@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 11:05:06AM -0500, Sue Skonetski wrote: > I remember at DEC when we all at VT100?s and then the big day came > when we could upgrade to the ?New Color? monitors Ah just to think > of the orange glow of the words radiating from the screen. Of > course you could get green as well. Not a lot of choice compared to > today but ground breaking at the time. The company I used to work > for still makes brand new VT?s since folks like them so much. VT520 > and the DEC style keyboards. Some things never go out of style. > > sue Intrigued by your comment I went on a web trek - after all, one doesn't hear about a company selling new terminals nowadays (at least I don't). Found Boundless Tech, but it seems they are preparing to quit. They ask that those who may need some docs download it from their website while it is still on material plane. http://www.boundlessterminals.com/documentation.html I have no idea it those are of any value to the group members but I decided to let you know, just in case. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Nov 14 19:22:13 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:22:13 -0500 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> > On Nov 14, 2015, at 6:15 PM, rod wrote: > > We have been through this loop before I believe. Didn't DEC sell the PDP-11 rights to Mentec and from there they passed to a mysterious unnamed individual. > Is owned by unknown a legal status? Just because YOU don't know who the owner is doesn't mean there is no owner. "Abandonware" is a term invented as an excuse to steal other people's property. Let's not try to apply it here. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 14 19:23:21 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 02:23:21 +0100 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5647DE89.7030909@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-15 00:15, rod wrote: > We have been through this loop before I believe. Didn't DEC sell the > PDP-11 rights to Mentec and from there they passed to a mysterious > unnamed individual. > Is owned by unknown a legal status? Who said it was unknown? Al certainly knows who owns it. And it's been posted publicly several times by now. In case you missed it, it's XX2247 LLC. And even if you don't know who owns something, that does not make it "free". Johnny > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > On 14/11/15 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-11-14 22:50, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>> One of the TRS-80 Model II enthusiasts has recently set up an archive >>> of Model II/12/16/6000 software and documentation on GitHub: >>> >>> https://github.com/pski/model2archive >>> >>> Perhaps a similar, structured and curated archive for RT-11 materials >>> would be awesome? This method makes it very easy for anybody to >>> locally mirror the archive, and it provides a complete history of >>> changes to the archive over time. >> >> Not to put people down, but just reminding people that this software >> is not "free". It is still owned by someone... >> >> Johnny >> > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 14 19:25:38 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 02:25:38 +0100 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5647DF12.6030804@update.uu.se> If you have some connections within HP, then please get involved in trying to get the PDP-11 software released. It is HP who has the final say. Unfortunately, getting anyone there signing off on something they don't even know or maybe recognize they have, has turned out to be hard. I know Al have tried. Johnny On 2015-11-15 00:56, rod wrote: > I am of the opinion that RT,RSX M & D etc could be dealt with in exactly > the same way as the very successful OpenVMS Hobbyists program. > Its free but you need to be a member of a recognized group. In my > case HPUG. I'm also classed as a HP pensioner due to my DEC service. > > One thing that has always interested me was could you build the next > generation of PDP-11.'s > I have an example of an 11/94 which was pretty much the end of the line. > So no DEC CPU parts allowed. > DEC form factor boards and connectors, > No Mentec boards > Physical Q-Bus > No Emulations - Runs say RT native. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > On 14/11/15 23:23, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> I have no interest in causing any deliberate harm to whoever may hold >> the rights to RT-11, but I am curious about whether the rights holder >> has shown any interest in preserving old RT-11 code and documentation >> that has no current commercial value. I would very much hate to see >> such stuff lost forever, and strongly feel that it should be preserved >> now to ensure that it will still exist at some future time when it >> either passes into public domain or becomes legally owned by somebody >> interested in preserving it. > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 14 19:25:55 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:25:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <5645F01D.6080305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, william degnan wrote: > I have a copy of the laplink software should anyone need it. If the cable > for parallel is just a null modem I suggest a person in this hobby > definitely add laplink to the bag of tricks available. You just fire it up > on both ends ll.exe ... and you'll see a directory tree of target machine > on the right, the source machine on the left. Pick files and copy. Copies > recursively etc. All Centronics ports have 8 bits going one way, and 4 "handshake" bits going the other way. IFF you can run doftware of your choice on both ends of the cable, Laplink and its imitators (such as Interlink) can work just fine. NOTE: I tend to think of Traveling Software's "Laplink" as being "the first", but, as always, there's bound to be a few examples of prior art. (Such as when did Chuck make his?) The Laplink cable is a "null printer" cable using those 4 bits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LapLink_cable it is a defacto standard; Chuck's cable was compatible. Some Centronics compatible printer ports have bidirectionality of the 8 data lines, and therefore shouldn't need to do nibble transfers using "handshake" signals. But, you can't always count on the other end having that. And, CAN you run software of your choice on both ends? Ever try to get document files out of a really alien word processor? But, sometimes that alien machine, with no practical way to run your software might output perfectly normal "centronics" printer output! About 25 years ago, I put together a somewhat special cable, and "printer emulator" software to run on a PC. With the software running on the PC, and special cable, I could simply tell the alien machine that it was connected to a simple ASCII printer, and tell it to print the document(s). The PC would pretend to be a [very fast] printer, and store whatever was coming through that "printer" cable that the alien machine was feeding. Ran into a couple of problems. Some machines sent a strobe that was so substantially shorter than the standard, that I couldn't respond fast enough with polling nor interruptws, so I added a one-shot to the cable to extend it to the spec duration for those machines. I put the cable switch-overs and the oneshot into a hooded blue-ribbonF/DB25M adapter, so that it could hang off the back of the PC, and the alien printer cable could connect to the blue-ribbon connector. Then I found out just how futile it was to develop a product that few understood. The purpose was not for doubling Laplink's speed, it was for capturing printer output from alien machines. Many people INSISTED that Laplink could install itself through the parallel port onto ANYTHING. ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING. Some of the same people insisted that one of the competitors to Chuck's and my programs could read ABSOLTELY ANY disk format (disunirregardless of hardware incomapabilities). A few others wanted to know how to connect it to machines that did not connect to Centronics compatible printers, including ones with built-in printers. After 5 days at Comdex, I realized that the people who could appreciate it was such an infinitesimal subset of the people who needed it that it was unmarketable. A slightly slower similar solution was already possible by connecting the parallel output of the alien machine to a parallel-to-serial printer adapter, and then using off-the-shelf serial software on the PC to capture that. So, I never brought the product up to marketable form, and XenoComm-Parallel joined XenoFont. Not with a bang, but a whimper. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 14 19:27:57 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 02:27:57 +0100 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-15 01:56, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Nov 14, 2015, at 15:56, rod wrote: >> >> I am of the opinion that RT,RSX M & D etc could be dealt with in exactly the same way as the very successful OpenVMS Hobbyists program. > > Has anybody contacted the RT-11 rights holder to see if they might be interested in a program like that? I think it could only work with their blessing and cooperation. Jerome knows very well who owns it, and have tried various ways to put it into the public domain. Unfortunately, him wanting it to happen is not really enough to make it happen. We need HP to release things. (In my own opinion, Jeromes guerilla tactics are not helping.) JOhnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jws at jwsss.com Sat Nov 14 19:31:31 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:31:31 -0800 Subject: Boundless terminals In-Reply-To: <20151115010913.GA16885@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <5641A253.8000200@btinternet.com> <795B2817-BDBF-417F-83F2-3EC2AC425A0D@VMSSoftware.com> <20151115010913.GA16885@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <5647E073.3030504@jwsss.com> On 11/14/2015 5:09 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote: > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 11:05:06AM -0500, Sue Skonetski wrote: > >> I remember at DEC when we all at VT100?s and then the big day came >> when we could upgrade to the ?New Color? monitors Ah just to think >> of the orange glow of the words radiating from the screen. Of >> course you could get green as well. Not a lot of choice compared to >> today but ground breaking at the time. The company I used to work >> for still makes brand new VT?s since folks like them so much. VT520 >> and the DEC style keyboards. Some things never go out of style. >> >> sue > Intrigued by your comment I went on a web trek - after all, one > doesn't hear about a company selling new terminals nowadays (at least > I don't). Found Boundless Tech, but it seems they are preparing to > quit. They ask that those who may need some docs download it from > their website while it is still on material plane. > > http://www.boundlessterminals.com/documentation.html > > I have no idea it those are of any value to the group members but I > decided to let you know, just in case. > Thanks for the heads up. I remember when Boundless first came on the scene and took over ADDS. Microdata had used ADDS early in their history, and their Prism terminals were all copies of the Adds 580 protocol, so many Reality customers bought maybe one Prism, and used ADDS. Later ADDS and other vendors took over. This documentation page appears to be propery captured on Archive.org, here is the documentation page, and an example document. https://web.archive.org/web/20150919155604/http://www.boundlessterminals.com/documentation.html https://web.archive.org/web/20151115012631/http://www.boundlessterminals.com/manuals/ADDS%203153%20LF%20Manual.pdf So when they take the pages offline, if you know boundlessterminals.com you are good to go too. This message will probably turn up in google searches for people lookng for info as well. I wanted to double check that the documents were all backed up. I looked around and didn't find a 580 manual, either schematics or a user manual. Any one have a copy? thanks Jim From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Nov 14 19:32:28 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:32:28 -0500 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <885203EE-0E99-44DF-8E9A-FE9C58A07DBA@comcast.net> > On Nov 14, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-11-15 01:56, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >> >>> On Nov 14, 2015, at 15:56, rod wrote: >>> >>> I am of the opinion that RT,RSX M & D etc could be dealt with in exactly the same way as the very successful OpenVMS Hobbyists program. >> >> Has anybody contacted the RT-11 rights holder to see if they might be interested in a program like that? I think it could only work with their blessing and cooperation. > > Jerome knows very well who owns it, and have tried various ways to put it into the public domain. Unfortunately, him wanting it to happen is not really enough to make it happen. > > We need HP to release things. HP? I know HP acquired VMS, but I always had the impression that all PDP11 stuff (except IAS???) went to Mentec, not HP. So it's Mentec or its successors who own it, and who would have to do the licensing. That might be anything from "no" to a hobbyist license to whatever they want. Public domain? I suppose one could imagine that being done, but it's rare for stuff to be released into the public domain. A generous license of some sort is more common; open source is one good example, hobbyist or "not for profit" licenses are somewhat more restrictive but still not a bad deal. paul From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Nov 14 19:35:41 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:35:41 -0800 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > On Nov 14, 2015, at 17:27, Johnny Billquist wrote: > We need HP to release things. If XX2247 LLC owns RT-11 as stated in another post, then what does HP have to do with it? I am glad that HP continues to license VMS to hobbyists, and I am one of the licensees. But I thought they owned VMS, not other works such as RT-11. From jws at jwsss.com Sat Nov 14 19:42:19 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:42:19 -0800 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <885203EE-0E99-44DF-8E9A-FE9C58A07DBA@comcast.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> <885203EE-0E99-44DF-8E9A-FE9C58A07DBA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5647E2FB.5060409@jwsss.com> On 11/14/2015 5:32 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Nov 14, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-11-15 01:56, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>> >>>> On Nov 14, 2015, at 15:56, rod wrote: >>>> >>>> I am of the opinion that RT,RSX M & D etc could be dealt with in exactly the same way as the very successful OpenVMS Hobbyists program. >>> Has anybody contacted the RT-11 rights holder to see if they might be interested in a program like that? I think it could only work with their blessing and cooperation. >> Jerome knows very well who owns it, and have tried various ways to put it into the public domain. Unfortunately, him wanting it to happen is not really enough to make it happen. >> >> We need HP to release things. > HP? I know HP acquired VMS, but I always had the impression that all PDP11 stuff (except IAS???) went to Mentec, not HP. So it's Mentec or its successors who own it, and who would have to do the licensing. That might be anything from "no" to a hobbyist license to whatever they want. Public domain? I suppose one could imagine that being done, but it's rare for stuff to be released into the public domain. A generous license of some sort is more common; open source is one good example, hobbyist or "not for profit" licenses are somewhat more restrictive but still not a bad deal. > > paul The systems on HP/UX, VMS and the Tandem stuff are now all on Itanium. Those markets are the only real ones for that chip I know of. There may be some Linux, but MS dropped all Windows support before any market ever developed. I think all the rest of the DEC stuff went elsewhere like this thread says, and I am guessing that people support Three letter agencies, and other customers willing to pay a fortune for ancient hardware are making it profitable to keep it proprietary or it would be opened and released. I know that PDP-8 hardware was being serviced and traded on up to 5 years ago in this area by a vendor, and the above TLA people were the main customers. That fellow retired, as far as I know the systems may be being maintained by people who have the means to pay for such old hardware wherever it is. The question of hobbyist or other needs seem to mean nothing to them, or there would be word on where that is at. FWIW the same thing exists for Computer Automation hardware and software. The Syfa software and hardware and certain ancient OS's on that hardware are still not releasable. I got a huge dump of software of the stuff what is public and got it to Al a few years ago, but the same place had all the software and couldn't and wouldn't release it. thanks Jim From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Nov 14 19:46:48 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 02:46:48 +0100 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <885203EE-0E99-44DF-8E9A-FE9C58A07DBA@comcast.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> <885203EE-0E99-44DF-8E9A-FE9C58A07DBA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5647E408.3050000@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-15 02:32, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 14, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-11-15 01:56, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 14, 2015, at 15:56, rod wrote: >>>> >>>> I am of the opinion that RT,RSX M & D etc could be dealt with in exactly the same way as the very successful OpenVMS Hobbyists program. >>> >>> Has anybody contacted the RT-11 rights holder to see if they might be interested in a program like that? I think it could only work with their blessing and cooperation. >> >> Jerome knows very well who owns it, and have tried various ways to put it into the public domain. Unfortunately, him wanting it to happen is not really enough to make it happen. >> >> We need HP to release things. > > HP? I know HP acquired VMS, but I always had the impression that all PDP11 stuff (except IAS???) went to Mentec, not HP. So it's Mentec or its successors who own it, and who would have to do the licensing. That might be anything from "no" to a hobbyist license to whatever they want. Public domain? I suppose one could imagine that being done, but it's rare for stuff to be released into the public domain. A generous license of some sort is more common; open source is one good example, hobbyist or "not for profit" licenses are somewhat more restrictive but still not a bad deal. It's murky waters, I'm afraid. But essentially, as I understand the state of things, DEC "sold" the PDP-11 software to Mentec, but at the same time they retained the intellectual property rights. So Mentec could develop and release new versions, but they were not free to actually release sources to anything without approval by DEC. And anything that says "DEC" should now be read "HP". Compare it to the deal VSI did with HP about VMS. VSI now "owns" VMS, do development and releases. Support, and all that. However, VSI are not free to release the sources to VMS without HP saying so. (Or that is how I've understood the agreement anyway.) Another thing that I don't know is if XX2247 would possibly be required to pay a fee to HP for each license sold. It might be, which would make it hard to even give licenses for binary distributions tricky. And there are things in the sources that could be claimed to still be relevant. Such as RMS-11, which in a further developed form is still sold as a part of VMS. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 14 20:20:59 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 18:20:59 -0800 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5647E408.3050000@update.uu.se> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> <885203EE-0E99-44DF-8E9A-FE9C58A07DBA@comcast.net> <5647E408.3050000@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5647EC0B.3010306@bitsavers.org> On 11/14/15 5:46 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Another thing that I don't know is if XX2247 would possibly be required to pay a fee to HP for each license sold. It might be, which would make it hard to even give licenses for binary distributions > tricky. > That is the crux of the problem. While XX2247 bought the rights from Mentec as the corporation was dissolving, no one in Mentec actually HAD a copy of the original agreement so the current owner doesn't know what the terms were. Trying to chase back HP->Compaq->DEC has essentially become impossible because the people who would have known aren't with the company any more, and HP doesn't want to invest any time trying to find the agreement. That was as far as I got working with HP's archivist, who has been incredibly helpful negotiating non-commercial releases of software for the HP-developed product lines and for Apollo. As Johnny said, someone on the inside who knows where to look would have to deal with this. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 14 20:42:34 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:42:34 -0600 Subject: kinda odd LSI-11 machine? Message-ID: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> Never saw one like this, but the chassis/cabinet doesn't look really homebrew to me.... https://post.craigslist.org/k/drQqW-KK5RG4d-7uD34-Xw/vi2lh?s=preview J From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 14 21:05:58 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 19:05:58 -0800 Subject: Free IBM 3174 in N. CA In-Reply-To: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5647F696.6060306@sbcglobal.net> Saw this on Craigslist. Anyone interested? http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/zip/5311274675.html Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From b4 at gewt.net Sat Nov 14 21:11:06 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 19:11:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free IBM 3174 in N. CA In-Reply-To: <5647F696.6060306@sbcglobal.net> References: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> <5647F696.6060306@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Saw this on Craigslist. Anyone interested? > I'm in SJ and have friends in Oakland...the only thing is I have no use for just a 3174... > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/zip/5311274675.html > > Bob > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 14 21:28:25 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 19:28:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5647EC0B.3010306@bitsavers.org> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> <885203EE-0E99-44DF-8E9A-FE9C58A07DBA@comcast.net> <5647E408.3050000@update.uu.se> <5647EC0B.3010306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> Another thing that I don't know is if XX2247 would possibly be required to On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Al Kossow wrote: > That is the crux of the problem. While XX2247 bought the rights from Mentec Well, XX2247 is at least related to the KEY to the problem, . . . :-) Unfortunately, although nobody might be willing to find out the details, somebody might be willing to go to the effort/expense of researching it in order to file a lawsuit, . . . From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 14 22:11:50 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:11:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > > "Abandonware" is a term invented as an excuse to steal other people's > property. Let's not try to apply it here. Copyright infringement is not theft... at least according to the Supreme Court, but then again, what do they know? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 22:25:13 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:25:13 -0800 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> Message-ID: It seems to me that Paul Koning's attitude will lead retrocomputing to die. We can't all own computers that can do interesting things with front-panel programming alone. By his definition, I have committed a lot of "theft" in my days to restore systems I had no other options left to deal with, due to restrictive licensing, incommunicado business entities, or IP situations with no well understood outcomes. I am always happy to pay, but that's not always an option. I agree the proper routes should always be pursued when possible, but bits are fading fast and without dark archives that may run afoul of present day copyright laws and original EULAs, many things will be lost permanently. I find the mindset of considering all abandonware scenarios "theft" to be pedantic, toxic, shortsighted, and counterproductive- as well as logically and legally baseless. - I Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 14, 2015, at 20:11, geneb wrote: > >> On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >> "Abandonware" is a term invented as an excuse to steal other people's property. Let's not try to apply it here. > > Copyright infringement is not theft... at least according to the Supreme Court, but then again, what do they know? > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Nov 14 22:49:21 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:49:21 -0800 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <353259DE-8D63-4238-9B92-3F1EA9CBC041@nf6x.net> > On Nov 14, 2015, at 20:25, Ian Finder wrote: > > I find the mindset of considering all abandonware scenarios "theft" to be pedantic, toxic, shortsighted, and counterproductive- as well as logically and legally baseless. I entirely agree. It's my understanding that Archive.org does archive items that are not publicly available on its external servers, for the sole purpose of preserving them until such time that they might be again needed. I see this as laudable, and harmless to present rights-holders (when they can even be identified, which is not always the case). If one preserves the only known copy of some old piece of software before the bits rot, and the proper rights-holder later emerges and takes exception to that, then there's potential recourse by apologizing at the simplest, or paying damages in the worst case. But if one doesn't archive that last copy before the media becomes unreadable, then the data is just gone. In the specific case of RT-11, it doesn't appear to me to be true abandonware since one or more potential rights holders are identified. The issue seems from the outside to be that none of them can be bothered to figure out who owns what. I certainly hope that all of the software in question will be archived by *somebody* while it still exists, even if it's kept off of public servers out of respect for the rights-holders (or at least, out of concern about being sued by them). I don't accept the argument that the concept of abandonware is nothing more than a ploy to steal food from the mouths of others. I've heard more than one tale of the legitimate rights holders of pieces of software ceasing to exist, with any successors being unidentifiable, unaware that the software in question exists, and/or simply not caring. In such a case, I believe that preservation of the software for future generations trumps any pedantic adherence to arbitrary rules stating that since a clearly identifiable owner has never formally released the software, it must simple be allowed to vanish forever. Preserve the data and software while it's still possible! If an owner comes forward later who gets pissed off about it, we can deal with that as it comes up. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Nov 14 22:58:14 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:58:14 -0800 Subject: Free IBM 3174 in N. CA In-Reply-To: References: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> <5647F696.6060306@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <564810E6.9040905@shiresoft.com> On 11/14/15 7:11 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> Saw this on Craigslist. Anyone interested? >> > > I'm in SJ and have friends in Oakland...the only thing is I have no > use for just a 3174... > >> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/zip/5311274675.html >> If you get an ethernet adapter for it (they're available for ~$100) then you can configure it for TCP/IP, attach real CUT terminals to it and use Hercules for getting that "mainframe" feel. ;-) Of course you need the floppies to go with it and they're a bit strange. My 3174-61R uses 2.4MB 5.25" floppies. ;-) TTFN - Guy From trash80 at internode.on.net Sat Nov 14 22:59:37 2015 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:59:37 +1100 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <007901d11f62$74e473c0$5ead5b40$@internode.on.net> I tend to agree - the use of the word "theft" is an emotional response and doesn't help the debate. Without getting too legal you can only steal something if you intend to permanently deprive the owner if it and that's not happening here - the owner still has it. It's an issue with the use of it that we grapple with. I'd like to think that common sense will prevail in this space one day and if you're legitimately preserving something then no-one will have an issue. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian Finder Sent: Sunday, 15 November 2015 3:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: To Al Kossow at bitsavers It seems to me that Paul Koning's attitude will lead retrocomputing to die. We can't all own computers that can do interesting things with front-panel programming alone. By his definition, I have committed a lot of "theft" in my days to restore systems I had no other options left to deal with, due to restrictive licensing, incommunicado business entities, or IP situations with no well understood outcomes. I am always happy to pay, but that's not always an option. I agree the proper routes should always be pursued when possible, but bits are fading fast and without dark archives that may run afoul of present day copyright laws and original EULAs, many things will be lost permanently. I find the mindset of considering all abandonware scenarios "theft" to be pedantic, toxic, shortsighted, and counterproductive- as well as logically and legally baseless. - I Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 14, 2015, at 20:11, geneb wrote: > >> On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >> "Abandonware" is a term invented as an excuse to steal other people's property. Let's not try to apply it here. > > Copyright infringement is not theft... at least according to the Supreme Court, but then again, what do they know? > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value > database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Nov 14 23:28:21 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 05:28:21 +0000 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <564817F5.5020406@btinternet.com> Sorry about that old chap. I had meant to agree that there was owner but I did not know how to confirm who they where. All this is doing me head in. I'm going to apply for a place at the home for the bewildered. Rod On 15/11/15 01:22, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Nov 14, 2015, at 6:15 PM, rod wrote: >> >> We have been through this loop before I believe. Didn't DEC sell the PDP-11 rights to Mentec and from there they passed to a mysterious unnamed individual. >> Is owned by unknown a legal status? > Just because YOU don't know who the owner is doesn't mean there is no owner. > > "Abandonware" is a term invented as an excuse to steal other people's property. Let's not try to apply it here. > > paul > > From microtechdart at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 04:15:53 2015 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 04:15:53 -0600 Subject: QIC Tape help with CRC - Dwight? Message-ID: While I'm new to speak up here, I've been watching for a while. I've also used the name "MightyFrame" on groups, although that email address is not registered with this list. A few months back, I published a page decoding QIC-24 format. http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html Dwight posted a very meaningful response to this about the CRC on my site, and it has taken me this long just to get to it. Thanks again for that, Dwight! This project has gone very well for me, with one hangup...the CRC. I've never calculated one of these before, and I'm struggling with this one. I have a QIC-24 block of data attached in a .txt file, and I just can't get the calculations to work. For my simple understanding so far, I'm using an online calculator to test this: http://bit.ly/1YbHUZ7 That URL is pre-programmed with the polynomial and the "message" that should provide the CRC result of 0xE8CE (decimal 59598) But, it doesn't. I created this file, wrote it to tape, then read it again and tested it. It is 100% correct for the QIC-24 tape system. This is block 3 of 4 of the file that I have extracted, and am testing here. The ANSI QIC-24 standard booklet (X3.136-1986) says something that I know is a clue, but I just don't understand. "The cyclical redundancy check (CRC) shall consist of two bytes, calculated over the 512 bytes of interchange data, and the 4-byte block address, *starting with all ONEs, CRC initial value*, and using the CRC Generating polynomial: x16 + x12 + x5 + 1 *"starting with all ONEs, CRC initial value"*? What does THAT mean? Do I need to do some kind of register shift? xorin or xorout? I've even played with http://reveng.sourceforge.net/, but I'm having trouble even understanding the meaning of the input values and parameters with this. I appreciate any feedback that anyone can give, here. -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com http://MightyFrame.com -------------- next part -------------- Here's The 512-byte Data Block, ending with 4-byte block address of "00000003": 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 CRC SHOULD BE = E8CE = 59598 Use polynomial: x16 + x12 + x5 + 1 which should be 10001000000100001 The ANSI QIC-24 standard booklet (X3.136-1986) says something that I know is a clue, but I just don't understand. "The cyclical redundancy check (CRC) shall consist of two bytes, calculated over the 512 bytes of interchange data, and the 4-byte block address, starting with all ONEs, CRC initial value, and using the CRC Generating polynomial: x16 + x12 + x5 + 1 "starting with all ONEs, CRC initial value". What does THAT mean? Do I need to do some kind of register shift? xor -------------- next part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rack Number = 00 = 0 Control Nybble = 0 Block Number = 00001 = 1 CRC = 964C = 38476 Block Sequential Count = 1 Warnings = None Time Stamp of End Of Block = Block 1,1.36962704166667, 0~~~~~~~~~~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rack Number = 00 = 0 Control Nybble = 0 Block Number = 00002 = 2 CRC = 7CD6 = 31958 Block Sequential Count = 2 Warnings = None Time Stamp of End Of Block = Block 2,1.375681625, 0~~~~~~~~~~ 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Track Number = 00 = 0 Control Nybble = 0 Block Number = 00004 = 4 CRC = ECD3 = 60627 Block Sequential Count = 4 Warnings = None Time Stamp of End Of Block = Block 4,1.387773, 0~~~~~~~~~~ MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM0000000569C9PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP Track Number = 00 = 0 Control Nybble = 0 Block Number = 00005 = 5 CRC = 69C9 = 27081 Block Sequential Count = 5 Warnings = None Time Stamp of End Of Block = Block 5,1.39385475, 0~~~~~~~~~~ Filemark nybble-string found at: 1 characters into HexByteString MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM0000000569C9PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP Track Number = 00 = 0 Control Nybble = 0 Block Number = 00005 = 5 CRC = 69C9 = 27081 Block Sequential Count = 6 Warnings = None Time Stamp of End Of Block = Block 6,1.399869375, 0~~~~~~~~~~ Filemark nybble-string found at: 1 characters into HexByteString From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 04:34:20 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 05:34:20 -0500 Subject: kinda odd LSI-11 machine? In-Reply-To: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <675B8EA0-F4DF-4E11-84E3-F96024EB5C2F@gmail.com> Internal looks home brew. The case used to be something else. Don't know what. Joe > On Nov 14, 2015, at 9:42 PM, "Jay West" wrote: > > Never saw one like this, but the chassis/cabinet doesn't look really > homebrew to me.... > > https://post.craigslist.org/k/drQqW-KK5RG4d-7uD34-Xw/vi2lh?s=preview > > J > > From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sun Nov 15 04:49:25 2015 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 11:49:25 +0100 Subject: QIC Tape help with CRC - Dwight? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56486335.2080003@ljw.me.uk> On 15/11/15 11:15, Microtech Dart wrote: > (snip) > "The cyclical redundancy check (CRC) shall consist of two bytes, calculated > over the 512 bytes of interchange data, and the 4-byte block address, *starting > with all ONEs, CRC initial value*, and using the CRC Generating polynomial: > x16 + x12 + x5 + 1 > > *"starting with all ONEs, CRC initial value"*? What does THAT mean? Do I > need to do some kind of register shift? xorin or xorout? It's the initial value of each bit, corresponding to the "Init before calculation" lines in the code at the bottom of the page. There doesn't seem to be any provision for entering this value in the online computation (and all-zeros is *not* a good initialisation vector!) One way around this would be to come up with a byte sequence that gave a CRC of all ones (i.e. 84 CF) and pre-pend that to the main sequence, and then it works. But I assume you're using some sort of code, so just make sure it's initialised appropriately. > > I've even played with http://reveng.sourceforge.net/, but I'm having > trouble even understanding the meaning of the input values and parameters > with this. > > I appreciate any feedback that anyone can give, here. > Best of luck! CRCs are fun! -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Nov 15 07:09:31 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:09:31 +0100 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> This is a long response, but I beg all people interested to read all of it. And to start with, I generally agree with Paul. Especially about the fact that just because you don't know who the owner is does in no way make something "abandonware" (and this is not specifically you, Ian.) But more below... On 2015-11-15 05:25, Ian Finder wrote: > It seems to me that Paul Koning's attitude will lead retrocomputing to die. We can't all own computers that can do interesting things with front-panel programming alone. What is "retrocomputing"? And how do you mean it will die because some people think that it is not above the law? > By his definition, I have committed a lot of "theft" in my days to restore systems I had no other options left to deal with, due to restrictive licensing, incommunicado business entities, or IP situations with no well understood outcomes. I don't know exactly what you have done, so I can't really comment on it. But in general, yes, it is a sad problem that sometimes it is hard to figure out the legal status and who is the owner of software. But that is not the case with the PDP-11 software talked about in this thread. > I am always happy to pay, but that's not always an option. Agreed. But that is still not the case here. > I agree the proper routes should always be pursued when possible, but bits are fading fast and without dark archives that may run afoul of present day copyright laws and original EULAs, many things will be lost permanently. Very true. But not the case in this specific thread. > I find the mindset of considering all abandonware scenarios "theft" to be pedantic, toxic, shortsighted, and counterproductive- as well as logically and legally baseless. I disagree with almost all of the above, with the exception of "theft". As others mentioned, the word "theft" is not a good word to use here, and it has been promoted by organizations that wants to associate the "problem" with something that people will react emotionally to. But for software that in general you can't find the owner, and even the legal status is hard to figure out, I think that at least some basic effort to preserve and share things can be nice. However, people who use your argument, Ian, tend to start applying it to anything they want, which is, for me, crossing a line that I do not agree with. In the specific example of the PDP-11 software that this thread is about, it's not even "abandonware". The term "abandonware" is in it self really problematic, because it is very much a subjective term. If you cannot get access or permission, and you also don't get any response, you consider the software to be "abandonware", which might be very far from the truth. The owner might not want to talk to you. The owner might not want anyone else to know he is the owner. The owner might be busy, have a bad spamfilter, or whatever. That do not make the software "abandonware". If you want to claim that something is "abandonware", then you should first do a *very* thorough work trying to locate the owner, and document everything that you find, or don't find, and really show that you tried everything. If that still turns up nothing, then I can agree that *maybe* the term "abandonware" might be applicable. I agree that I have a hard time calling software theft "theft". For me as well, "theft" involves denying the rightful owner access/use of the item. Intellectual property is a weird concept. However (and I hope people actually reads this far), XX2247 decided to buy the software from Mentec. There is an easy trail to follow, showing that there is a legal entity that still owns this software. And even if you disagree with the "theft" thing, consider this: the owner of XX2247 made an effort that cost money, in order to preserve this software for the future (an effort people here use as an argument for their actions that might not be legal). By doing what XX2247 did, they agreed to follow the DEC-Mentec agreement. If people put the PDP-11 software up in general, they are violating copyright laws (and possibly IP rights). In addition to themselves potentially breaking the law, they are potentially also setting XX2247 up, since the owners of the IP rights could argue that XX2247 are also guilty for not protecting those IP rights. So in the end, you might be setting the person who tried to preserve this software up for legal effects that he certainly do not deserve. Now, what do you think is the right way to deal with this? Me personally, I think we need to get HP to release it all. After that, I'm pretty sure people would find it much easier to get access to PDP-11 software. Johnny > > - I > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 14, 2015, at 20:11, geneb wrote: >> >>> On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> >>> "Abandonware" is a term invented as an excuse to steal other people's property. Let's not try to apply it here. >> >> Copyright infringement is not theft... at least according to the Supreme Court, but then again, what do they know? >> >> g. >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >> >> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Nov 15 07:42:47 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:42:47 +0000 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56488BD7.8060003@btinternet.com> Well thats part of the picture but not I think all of it. If you take what Deep Throat told the Washington Post reporter to do and how Sherlock Holmes said you could solve most cases put them together and there is one one possible answer. On 15/11/15 13:09, Johnny Billquist wrote: > This is a long response, but I beg all people interested to read all > of it. > > And to start with, I generally agree with Paul. Especially about the > fact that just because you don't know who the owner is does in no way > make something "abandonware" (and this is not specifically you, Ian.) > But more below... > > On 2015-11-15 05:25, Ian Finder wrote: >> It seems to me that Paul Koning's attitude will lead retrocomputing >> to die. We can't all own computers that can do interesting things >> with front-panel programming alone. > > What is "retrocomputing"? And how do you mean it will die because some > people think that it is not above the law? > >> By his definition, I have committed a lot of "theft" in my days to >> restore systems I had no other options left to deal with, due to >> restrictive licensing, incommunicado business entities, or IP >> situations with no well understood outcomes. > > I don't know exactly what you have done, so I can't really comment on > it. But in general, yes, it is a sad problem that sometimes it is hard > to figure out the legal status and who is the owner of software. > > But that is not the case with the PDP-11 software talked about in this > thread. > >> I am always happy to pay, but that's not always an option. > > Agreed. But that is still not the case here. > >> I agree the proper routes should always be pursued when possible, but >> bits are fading fast and without dark archives that may run afoul of >> present day copyright laws and original EULAs, many things will be >> lost permanently. > > Very true. But not the case in this specific thread. > >> I find the mindset of considering all abandonware scenarios "theft" >> to be pedantic, toxic, shortsighted, and counterproductive- as well >> as logically and legally baseless. > > I disagree with almost all of the above, with the exception of > "theft". As others mentioned, the word "theft" is not a good word to > use here, and it has been promoted by organizations that wants to > associate the "problem" with something that people will react > emotionally to. > > But for software that in general you can't find the owner, and even > the legal status is hard to figure out, I think that at least some > basic effort to preserve and share things can be nice. > > However, people who use your argument, Ian, tend to start applying it > to anything they want, which is, for me, crossing a line that I do not > agree with. In the specific example of the PDP-11 software that this > thread is about, it's not even "abandonware". The term "abandonware" > is in it self really problematic, because it is very much a subjective > term. If you cannot get access or permission, and you also don't get > any response, you consider the software to be "abandonware", which > might be very far from the truth. The owner might not want to talk to > you. The owner might not want anyone else to know he is the owner. The > owner might be busy, have a bad spamfilter, or whatever. That do not > make the software "abandonware". If you want to claim that something > is "abandonware", then you should first do a *very* thorough work > trying to locate the owner, and document everything that you find, or > don't find, and really show that you tried everything. If that still > turns up nothing, then I can agree that *maybe* the term "abandonware" > might be applicable. > > I agree that I have a hard time calling software theft "theft". For me > as well, "theft" involves denying the rightful owner access/use of the > item. Intellectual property is a weird concept. > > However (and I hope people actually reads this far), XX2247 decided to > buy the software from Mentec. There is an easy trail to follow, > showing that there is a legal entity that still owns this software. > And even if you disagree with the "theft" thing, consider this: the > owner of XX2247 made an effort that cost money, in order to preserve > this software for the future (an effort people here use as an argument > for their actions that might not be legal). By doing what XX2247 did, > they agreed to follow the DEC-Mentec agreement. If people put the > PDP-11 software up in general, they are violating copyright laws (and > possibly IP rights). In addition to themselves potentially breaking > the law, they are potentially also setting XX2247 up, since the owners > of the IP rights could argue that XX2247 are also guilty for not > protecting those IP rights. > So in the end, you might be setting the person who tried to preserve > this software up for legal effects that he certainly do not deserve. > > Now, what do you think is the right way to deal with this? > > Me personally, I think we need to get HP to release it all. After > that, I'm pretty sure people would find it much easier to get access > to PDP-11 software. > > Johnny > >> >> - I >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 14, 2015, at 20:11, geneb wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> "Abandonware" is a term invented as an excuse to steal other >>>> people's property. Let's not try to apply it here. >>> >>> Copyright infringement is not theft... at least according to the >>> Supreme Court, but then again, what do they know? >>> >>> g. >>> >>> -- >>> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >>> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >>> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >>> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >>> >>> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >>> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >>> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 15 08:06:37 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 09:06:37 -0500 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <56488BD7.8060003@btinternet.com> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <56488BD7.8060003@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5648916D.90002@compsys.to> >rod wrote: > Well thats part of the picture but not I think all of it. > > If you take what Deep Throat told the Washington Post reporter to do > and how Sherlock Holmes said you could solve most cases put them > together and there is one > one possible answer. > > >On 15/11/15 13:09, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> This is a long response, but I beg all people interested to read all >> of it. >> >> [Snip] > This situation has been so confused for so many decades that I am at a complete loss about what that "one possible answer" may be. If you do have any information or conclusions, please share them with all of us. At this point, I doubt that any new or different information would make things any worse and that additional clarification might help us to understand. Actually, although I understand your reference to Deep Throat, I don't think I ever knew or I don't remember the quote in question. I am probably not the only person. So PLEASE!!! Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 15 09:01:58 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 10:01:58 -0500 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56489E66.1020703@compsys.to> By the way, a draft of the post which follows was made available to Johnny over 12 hours ago. Some clarifications were made, but none of the facts that I mention have changed from my point of view. >On November 15th, 2015 at 8:27 P.M. EST Johnny Billquist wrote: > >On 2015-11-15 01:56, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >>> >On Nov 14, 2015, at 15:56, rod wrote: >>> >>> I am of the opinion that RT,RSX M & D etc could be dealt with in >>> exactly the same way as the very successful OpenVMS Hobbyists program. >> >> >> Has anybody contacted the RT-11 rights holder to see if they might be >> interested in a program like that? I think it could only work with >> their blessing and cooperation. > > Jerome knows very well who owns it, and have tried various ways to put > it into the public domain. Unfortunately, him wanting it to happen is > not really enough to make it happen. Just to set the record straight from my point of view (I very much doubt that either Johnny, Al or Dave will see it this way, but ...): Actually, I really don't specifically know any of the actual details which means that all I know about is the information provided by other individuals that Mentec USA sold what it owned to XX2247 LLC when Mentec USA stopped doing business. The other information is that Dave Carroll owns XX2247 LLC. And finally, the most important aspect of the information provided by other individuals is that when DEC made the agreement with Mentec, DEC retained ultimate control over the IP and it is very possible that for every license that Mentec gives out, DEC or its successors, which means Compaq followed now by HP must receive a specific amount of compensation. If that is the situation, then it would be rather straight forward at this point to exempt non-commercial and educational uses, especially since HP already participates in a program for VMS. By the way, in the above two paragraphs, I changed the word "rumours" (in the draft I sent to Johnny) to information provided by other individuals. Will HP do that? From all indications, it seems VERY doubtful since at this point it would cost HP the services of a lawyer and there would be no return. Good will on the part of the public no longer seems very important, so again, it seems doubtful about what HP might ever do. --------------------------------------------------------------- I digress a bit with some information which may be of interest! By the way, over a decade ago, I did some Y2K work for a TSX-Plus system which resulted in the purchase of an RT-11 and TSX-Plus licenses. And while I was able to manage the paper work for the TSX-Plus license, Mentec did not even respond to my many inquiries. I was not only unable to buy an RT-11 license from Mentec, Mentec would not even reply at all in respect to anything about the purchase of an RT-11 license, including the rather important question of the cost. The company for which I did the Y2K work is one of the largest in Canada and the name is known by everyone in Canada. I have no idea why Mentec refused to respond, but there is not much that can be done when a USA company decides to ignore requests for information in order to make a legitimate purchase. By the way, over two decades ago, I had a somewhat similar difficulty with DEC in respect of RT-11 licenses and software. By then, DEC had probably effectively shut down its RT-11 development group. When I mentioned that a new version of RT-11 that had just been delivered was under warranty and needed some bugs fixed, DEC was not even interested in finding out what the bug was, let alone in fixing the bug. Again, the company that I was consulting for was one of the largest in Canada. I mention these two experiences with DEC and Mentec since those experiences may have resulted in my being known by either DEC or Mentec, or both, as a difficult individual to deal with since I insisted on reputable adherence to the warranty which DEC provided plus up front details of what would be involved in the acquisition of an RT-11 license. Back to the reply to Johnny. --------------------------------------------------------------- In the past I have attempted to contact Johnny and while Johnny at least does respond to my many questions, Johnny doesn't know much more than I do. Except that it seems likely that Johnny and Al do discuss things some of the time and they probably both feel that my inquiries are causing a problem. As far as I can remember, Al may have responded to some of my questions in the past, but no longer even acknowledges that I have made a direct attempt to contact him. As for Dave Carroll, a few years ago I managed to locate where he worked and left a voice-mail. I asked Dave to return my call. I have never spoken to Dave nor have I ever received an e-mail from Dave. The rest of my response is in regard ONLY to RT-11 since I have almost no contact with RSX-11 and only the occasional contact with RSTS/E. As far as trying various ways to put RT-11 into the public domain, about the only aspect of that which is explicitly true is a bug list for RT-11. Even that I don't host by myself, so if the internet site where the bug list is available had not make the bug list available, then no one else would know about those bugs in RT-11. And equally, I could have just included the Bug List in a normal post such as this one and the Bug List would then have been in the classiccmp archive. In any case, after a decade of requesting help and contributions of additional bugs in RT-11, there have been exactly ZERO contributions. In respect for the IP for RT-11 and having "tried various ways to put it into the public domain", based on the understanding of US law in that regard, doing so (at least as far as the arm chair legal opinions that have been expressed over the years) is actually impossible since the owner of any IP does not EVER need to take any action in the past against violators to take action in the present OR the future. At least, if you ask Bill Gunshannon and Johnny, I strongly suspect that will be the legal position of both individuals and I also suspect that for all practical purposes, both of them are probably correct. Even the present use of the SimH emulator to run specified versions of PDP-11 operating systems under a license by Mentec seems mute at this point since, as has been pointed out by a few arm chair lawyers, DEC no longer owns SimH. Consequently, it does not seem to be legal at this time to run any versions of the PDP-11 operating systems under SimH which were made available on a number of internet sites where there are no restrictions to download the image files for these PDP-11 operating systems. Of course, that also means that those same image files can also be run on real DEC hardware and that was possible immediately and neither DEC nor Mentec made any complaint at the time about that aspect. Curious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, in the past, I don't believe that I have done anything different that anyone else has done in respect of RT-11, and probably less of it than at least a few individuals. I have probably asked questions and in many cases answered questions in respect of using RT-11 when inquiries were made. From my point of view, the single biggest part in the situation with regard to the IP for RT-11 is that all of the files for the binary distribution for V05.07 of RT-11 have been available on the internet for download by any individual who has taken sufficient interest to know where these files could be found. Further, even the critical Commented Source Code files for all but two of the applications have also been available. What made the major change in the past month was that even the link address to the internet site was recently made available for files which are available on the same internet site such that anyone interested in looking at those files could have found the files referred to above. I have VERY privately advised a few individuals of the existence of these files, in one case that advice was provided many years ago. So if the attempt on trying "to put it into the public domain" has taken place at all, I have certainly not been the individual to make the most successful attempt. I do have an opinion as to why and under what circumstances the above files were made available for download at that internet site, but since I have not been able to verify my opinion with Dave Carroll or Al Kossow, there seems no point in doing do since it is probably wrong. If I felt confident of my conclusions, as opposed to what Rod Smallwood suggested about 2 hours ago in his reference to Deep Throat, then I would have shared that conclusion. > We need HP to release things. PROBABLY, ALMOST CERTAINLY NOT going to happen after almost 20 years when the expense to HP would be large and there is no public benefit for doing so at this point. > (In my own opinion, Jeromes guerilla tactics are not helping.) Actually, in my opinion, I have been reasonably quiet about the whole situation and would have been even more so had I been advised about what is actually the true situation and what my contribution could be to help. And while I do provide specific help with RT-11 questions for individuals who are asking for that help, those individuals were already using RT-11 in whatever capacity before I answered. As for having made bug fixes and enhancements to programs which are in the RT-11 binary distributions, I believe I have followed a long line of individuals who did so in the past. Note that in my case, not one person has even been interested enough to actually ask for these programs. So I doubt very much that there has been any real harm. And since I am not the only person who has made changes to such programs (one individual made the changes and made the final executable program available for download on the internet), it seems rather interesting to say that I am using guerilla tactics when I am doing that same thing as others, but not making the changes available on a public basis. I invite any and all responses to this post to classiccmp and would appreciate a correction in respect of any facts which are incorrect. I certainly realize that I don't know what is actually in the original agreement between DEC and Mentec which was made around 1994. I do know that most of my attempts in the past to obtain information and help for problems with RT-11 have not met with any satisfaction from my point of view as far as both DEC and Mentec are concerned. On the other hand, my view of RT-11 software is that it is of the very best quality. And while there are still bugs in RT-11 and there are many enhancements that should be available, the only real complaints I have are: (a) The Date word has the bits for the year separated with the 5 low order bits and the two high order bits making up a 7-bit field for the year which obviously can't be used in sorting for the date as is (b) DEC would never share the outstanding bugs in the RT-11 operating system - while I do agree that their point of view was both valid and reasonable, that was still disappointing since it makes it so difficult to fix bugs that are unknown Jerome Fine From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 15 09:13:04 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:13:04 +0000 Subject: QIC Tape help with CRC - Dwight? In-Reply-To: <56486335.2080003@ljw.me.uk> References: , <56486335.2080003@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: I'm not sure why the program your using doesn't allow an initial value. Are you sure it is starting with 0's? If you give it a data set that is all 0's and the result is 0's, it is starting with 0's. By starting with all 1's, usually means the check sum is all 1's, not that one entered all 1's. Most CRC's do LSB end in first but some do MSB. Try both ways. Some use a table lookup for a byte at a time rather than bit at a time. This it is much faster but can't be used for correction ( without difficulty ). If you have some coding experience, you should be able to code your own. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Lawrence Wilkinson Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 2:49 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: QIC Tape help with CRC - Dwight? On 15/11/15 11:15, Microtech Dart wrote: > (snip) > "The cyclical redundancy check (CRC) shall consist of two bytes, calculated > over the 512 bytes of interchange data, and the 4-byte block address, *starting > with all ONEs, CRC initial value*, and using the CRC Generating polynomial: > x16 + x12 + x5 + 1 > > *"starting with all ONEs, CRC initial value"*? What does THAT mean? Do I > need to do some kind of register shift? xorin or xorout? It's the initial value of each bit, corresponding to the "Init before calculation" lines in the code at the bottom of the page. There doesn't seem to be any provision for entering this value in the online computation (and all-zeros is *not* a good initialisation vector!) One way around this would be to come up with a byte sequence that gave a CRC of all ones (i.e. 84 CF) and pre-pend that to the main sequence, and then it works. But I assume you're using some sort of code, so just make sure it's initialised appropriately. > > I've even played with http://reveng.sourceforge.net/, but I'm having > trouble even understanding the meaning of the input values and parameters > with this. > > I appreciate any feedback that anyone can give, here. > Best of luck! CRCs are fun! -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Nov 15 09:37:52 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 16:37:52 +0100 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <56489E66.1020703@compsys.to> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> <56489E66.1020703@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5648A6D0.5060802@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-15 16:01, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > By the way, a draft of the post which follows was made > available to Johnny over 12 hours ago. Some clarifications > were made, but none of the facts that I mention have changed > from my point of view. > > >On November 15th, 2015 at 8:27 P.M. EST Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> >On 2015-11-15 01:56, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >>>> >On Nov 14, 2015, at 15:56, rod wrote: >>>> >>>> I am of the opinion that RT,RSX M & D etc could be dealt with in >>>> exactly the same way as the very successful OpenVMS Hobbyists program. >>> >>> >>> Has anybody contacted the RT-11 rights holder to see if they might be >>> interested in a program like that? I think it could only work with >>> their blessing and cooperation. >> >> Jerome knows very well who owns it, and have tried various ways to put >> it into the public domain. Unfortunately, him wanting it to happen is >> not really enough to make it happen. > > Just to set the record straight from my point of view (I very much > doubt that either Johnny, Al or Dave will see it this way, but ...): > > Actually, I really don't specifically know any of the actual details > which means that all I know about is the information provided by > other individuals that Mentec USA sold what it owned to > XX2247 LLC when Mentec USA stopped doing business. > The other information is that Dave Carroll owns XX2247 LLC. And I have plenty of emails from you showing that you have been trying to talk with Dave Carroll many times over the years on the subject of releasing RT-11, getting access to RT-11, submitting patches to RT-11, making a new version of RT-11, and god knows what else. Now, why you would have written those emails if you know nothing about this is a mystery to me. > And finally, the most important aspect of the information provided by > other individuals is that when DEC made the agreement with Mentec, > DEC retained ultimate control over the IP and it is very possible > that for every license that Mentec gives out, DEC or its successors, > which means Compaq followed now by HP must receive a > specific amount of compensation. If that is the situation, then > it would be rather straight forward at this point to exempt > non-commercial and educational uses, especially since HP > already participates in a program for VMS. Oh, sure. Which comes back to what I already said several emails ago. If someone have a good contact in HP, which would be able to write such a document for us, then please let us know. We would like nothing more... > By the way, in the above two paragraphs, I changed the word > "rumours" (in the draft I sent to Johnny) to information > provided by other individuals. > > Will HP do that? From all indications, it seems VERY > doubtful since at this point it would cost HP the services > of a lawyer and there would be no return. Good will > on the part of the public no longer seems very important, > so again, it seems doubtful about what HP might ever do. Right. So the problem was, and still is, HP. HP has the control, and the ball. And nothing can happen until they do something, which at this time do not seem likely. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > I digress a bit with some information which may be of interest! > > By the way, over a decade ago, I did some Y2K work for a > TSX-Plus system which resulted in the purchase of an RT-11 > and TSX-Plus licenses. And while I was able to manage the > paper work for the TSX-Plus license, Mentec did not even > respond to my many inquiries. I was not only unable to buy > an RT-11 license from Mentec, Mentec would not even reply > at all in respect to anything about the purchase of an RT-11 > license, including the rather important question of the cost. > The company for which I did the Y2K work is one of the > largest in Canada and the name is known by everyone in > Canada. I have no idea why Mentec refused to respond, > but there is not much that can be done when a USA company > decides to ignore requests for information in order to make > a legitimate purchase. I also do not know why Mentec didn't respond to you. Maybe some past history, or maybe just lost mail? I certainly did business with Mentec 10 years ago, and they were happy to take my money, and send me CDs with PDP-11 software. So they were definitely still making business with some people. > By the way, over two decades ago, I had a somewhat similar > difficulty with DEC in respect of RT-11 licenses and software. > By then, DEC had probably effectively shut down its RT-11 > development group. When I mentioned that a new version > of RT-11 that had just been delivered was under warranty > and needed some bugs fixed, DEC was not even interested > in finding out what the bug was, let alone in fixing the bug. > Again, the company that I was consulting for was one of the > largest in Canada. > > I mention these two experiences with DEC and Mentec since > those experiences may have resulted in my being known by > either DEC or Mentec, or both, as a difficult individual to > deal with since I insisted on reputable adherence to the > warranty which DEC provided plus up front details of what > would be involved in the acquisition of an RT-11 license. And I heard from DEC/Mentec that you were a difficult individual who was very fond of violating licenses. But all that is hearsay on my part. > Back to the reply to Johnny. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the past I have attempted to contact Johnny and while Johnny > at least does respond to my many questions, Johnny doesn't know > much more than I do. Except that it seems likely that Johnny and > Al do discuss things some of the time and they probably both feel > that my inquiries are causing a problem. I respond, since I feel that you are sending out disinformation and try to make others do some dirty work so that you can then feel safety in numbers. And I try to say what I think is correct information. I could be entirely wrong, but until someone shows me that, I'll continue. > As far as I can remember, Al may have responded to some of > my questions in the past, but no longer even acknowledges that > I have made a direct attempt to contact him. > > As for Dave Carroll, a few years ago I managed to locate where > he worked and left a voice-mail. I asked Dave to return my call. > I have never spoken to Dave nor have I ever received an e-mail > from Dave. > > The rest of my response is in regard ONLY to RT-11 since I > have almost no contact with RSX-11 and only the occasional > contact with RSTS/E. > > As far as trying various ways to put RT-11 into the public domain, > about the only aspect of that which is explicitly true is a bug list > for RT-11. Even that I don't host by myself, so if the internet site > where the bug list is available had not make the bug list available, > then no one else would know about those bugs in RT-11. And > equally, I could have just included the Bug List in a normal post > such as this one and the Bug List would then have been in the > classiccmp archive. In any case, after a decade of requesting > help and contributions of additional bugs in RT-11, there have > been exactly ZERO contributions. > > In respect for the IP for RT-11 and having "tried various ways to > put it into the public domain", based on the understanding of US > law in that regard, doing so (at least as far as the arm chair legal > opinions that have been expressed over the years) is actually > impossible since the owner of any IP does not EVER need to > take any action in the past against violators to take action in the > present OR the future. At least, if you ask Bill Gunshannon and > Johnny, I strongly suspect that will be the legal position of both > individuals and I also suspect that for all practical purposes, > both of them are probably correct. TO just point one thing out here. I don't live in the US, and I have a very fuzzy idea about what US law might say. I'm merely pointing out what I think is right from a very personal perspective. > Even the present use of the SimH emulator to run specified > versions of PDP-11 operating systems under a license by > Mentec seems mute at this point since, as has been pointed > out by a few arm chair lawyers, DEC no longer owns SimH. > > Consequently, it does not seem to be legal at this time to run > any versions of the PDP-11 operating systems under SimH > which were made available on a number of internet sites > where there are no restrictions to download the image files > for these PDP-11 operating systems. Of course, that also > means that those same image files can also be run on real > DEC hardware and that was possible immediately and > neither DEC nor Mentec made any complaint at the time > about that aspect. Curious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let me point out that it is not impossible to run PDP-11 software legally under SimH. You just need a license. (This should be obvious, but your wording above makes me feel I should point it out anyway.) As far as your "curiois" comment goes. Before they can make a comment, they need to know about it. If they don't know, how can they make a comment? I'm sure you know, as a good lawabiding citizen, will contact HP and tell them that software which they own the IP for, are available for free on some sites, just so they know. > So, in the past, I don't believe that I have done anything different > that anyone else has done in respect of RT-11, and probably > less of it than at least a few individuals. I have probably asked > questions and in many cases answered questions in respect of > using RT-11 when inquiries were made. > > From my point of view, the single biggest part in the situation > with regard to the IP for RT-11 is that all of the files for the > binary distribution for V05.07 of RT-11 have been available > on the internet for download by any individual who has taken > sufficient interest to know where these files could be found. > > Further, even the critical Commented Source Code files > for all but two of the applications have also been available. > > What made the major change in the past month was that > even the link address to the internet site was recently made > available for files which are available on the same internet > site such that anyone interested in looking at those files > could have found the files referred to above. I have VERY > privately advised a few individuals of the existence of these > files, in one case that advice was provided many years ago. > > So if the attempt on trying "to put it into the public domain" > has taken place at all, I have certainly not been the individual > to make the most successful attempt. Well, who knows how much damage you might have done to the people who have tried to make it legal...? So you have have had an impact after all. There was certainly an attempt to make all the software available for hobbyist use around 10 years ago. And for a while it seemed really promising, and then suddenly it was all aborted, which fairly advanced discussions was going on. I was not involved, but I know of some people who where. > I do have an opinion as to why and under what circumstances > the above files were made available for download at that > internet site, but since I have not been able to verify my opinion > with Dave Carroll or Al Kossow, there seems no point in > doing do since it is probably wrong. If I felt confident of my > conclusions, as opposed to what Rod Smallwood suggested > about 2 hours ago in his reference to Deep Throat, then I > would have shared that conclusion. > >> We need HP to release things. > > PROBABLY, ALMOST CERTAINLY NOT going to > happen after almost 20 years when the expense to HP > would be large and there is no public benefit for doing so > at this point. Sadly, I suspect that this might be correct. But that is still the path we need to pursue. >> (In my own opinion, Jeromes guerilla tactics are not helping.) > > Actually, in my opinion, I have been reasonably quiet about the > whole situation and would have been even more so had I been > advised about what is actually the true situation and what my > contribution could be to help. > > And while I do provide specific help with RT-11 questions > for individuals who are asking for that help, those individuals > were already using RT-11 in whatever capacity before I > answered. > > As for having made bug fixes and enhancements to programs > which are in the RT-11 binary distributions, I believe I > have followed a long line of individuals who did so in the past. > Note that in my case, not one person has even been interested > enough to actually ask for these programs. So I doubt very > much that there has been any real harm. And since I am > not the only person who has made changes to such programs > (one individual made the changes and made the final executable > program available for download on the internet), it seems > rather interesting to say that I am using guerilla tactics when > I am doing that same thing as others, but not making the > changes available on a public basis. > > I invite any and all responses to this post to classiccmp and > would appreciate a correction in respect of any facts which > are incorrect. I certainly realize that I don't know what is > actually in the original agreement between DEC and Mentec > which was made around 1994. I do know that most of my > attempts in the past to obtain information and help for problems > with RT-11 have not met with any satisfaction from my point > of view as far as both DEC and Mentec are concerned. What would satisfy you? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 15 08:28:26 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:28:26 +0000 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <5645F01D.6080305@update.uu.se> , Message-ID: > All Centronics ports have 8 bits going one way, and 4 "handshake" bits > going the other way. That's a very PC-centric statement for you, and I am not convinced it's even true on IBM PCs and compatibles! There are plenty of machines that have 7 or 8 data bits output, automatic strobe when the CPU writes to that output port and just a single busy pin input. On the PC, there are indeed 8 data output lines. But there are also 4 more control output lines that are fully under program control (strobe, etc) and 4 (or is it 5) input lines normally used for printer status input. -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 15 10:28:30 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 11:28:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201511151628.LAA23686@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If people put the PDP-11 software up in general, they are violating > copyright laws (and possibly IP rights). In general, probably. But I have seen it said that there are jurisdictions that do not recognize copyrights other than their own, or possibly even do not recognize copyrights at all. I would be surprised if there were not some networking with at least one such, leading to the interesting (in the abstract) question of where the infringement, if any, would occur if someone in such a jurisdiction were to make it available. > Now, what do you think is the right way to deal with this? Personally? I think the rightest way is to eliminiate the legal fiction called "intellectual property", as a good-sounding experiment that has failed. It is not producing the effects it was put in place to produce and it is producing a lot of other, ill, effects. However, it is, to put it mildly, unlikely that will happen; too many of the mechanisms that would have to be convinced have a vested interest in keeping it the way it is. I think the best thing "we" can do here is preserve things in a demonstrably not-directly-usable form. That is, however, difficult; second best is probably to privately keep archive copies, not redistributed, until and unless someone comes forward with a credible claim to being the owner. > Me personally, I think we need to get HP to release it all. Quite aside from the other possible projblems with that mentioned upthread, it's possible that the contract with Mentec is such that that's not an option for them. (If HP doesn't have a copy of that contract either, the Right Thing would be for them to negotiate some kind of replacement with XX2247. Unfortunately, I can't see any business case for them to spend the staff time that would involve.) It sucks. But, sometimes, the world loses. :-( /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 10:47:16 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 10:47:16 -0600 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <5645F01D.6080305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5648B714.4030306@gmail.com> On 11/14/2015 06:12 PM, william degnan wrote: > I have a copy of the laplink software should anyone need it. If the cable > for parallel is just a null modem I suggest a person in this hobby > definitely add laplink to the bag of tricks available. You just fire it up > on both ends ll.exe ... and you'll see a directory tree of target machine > on the right, the source machine on the left. Pick files and copy. Copies > recursively etc. Hmm, is there no driver to let you map a directory on one machine to a drive letter on the other? (and if not, is anyone aware of independent software to do this?). I think that's probably what I really need, rather than some browser tool, then I can write my own code if needs be to transfer data (to potentially work around problems with corrupted filesystems, marginal sectors etc. on ailing drives) Laplink cable wired up now. Might get time today to try it out... cheers Jules From js at cimmeri.com Sun Nov 15 10:52:50 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 11:52:50 -0500 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5648B862.4030402@cimmeri.com> On 11/14/2015 11:25 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > It seems to me that Paul Koning's attitude will lead retrocomputing to die. We can't all own computers that can do interesting things with front-panel programming alone. > > By his definition, I have committed a lot of "theft" in my days to restore systems I had no other options left to deal with, due to restrictive licensing, incommunicado business entities, or IP situations with no well understood outcomes. > > I am always happy to pay, but that's not always an option. > > I agree the proper routes should always be pursued when possible, but bits are fading fast and without dark archives that may run afoul of present day copyright laws and original EULAs, many things will be lost permanently. > > I find the mindset of considering all abandonware scenarios "theft" to be pedantic, toxic, shortsighted, and counterproductive- as well as logically and legally baseless. > > - I > I agree 100%. There sometimes seems to be a certain strain of ad-infinitum-uber-nitpickiness (ad nauseam) when it comes to perspective on some of these old software legal issues. My stance: if they still wanted income from it, it'd still be for sale. If it's not for sale, and I can find it, then I'll use it and be sure not to profit from it. At such a time as the original owners may want payment for it, they can make public notice and I'll contact them at that time. - J. From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Nov 15 11:00:33 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 18:00:33 +0100 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <201511151628.LAA23686@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <201511151628.LAA23686@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5648BA31.6050103@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-15 17:28, Mouse wrote: >> If people put the PDP-11 software up in general, they are violating >> copyright laws (and possibly IP rights). > > In general, probably. But I have seen it said that there are > jurisdictions that do not recognize copyrights other than their own, or > possibly even do not recognize copyrights at all. I would be surprised > if there were not some networking with at least one such, leading to > the interesting (in the abstract) question of where the infringement, > if any, would occur if someone in such a jurisdiction were to make it > available. Good point. But that just makes it even more complicated. >> Now, what do you think is the right way to deal with this? > > Personally? I think the rightest way is to eliminiate the legal > fiction called "intellectual property", as a good-sounding experiment > that has failed. It is not producing the effects it was put in place > to produce and it is producing a lot of other, ill, effects. Agree. I think the whole concept of intellectual property is weird. Calling some thought in your head a "property" have strange implications. If I say some words that makes you think of something, can I then make you violate my intellectual property? When if you thought of the same idea independently? How did you violate my intellectual property in that case? Weird... I think copyright law sortof makes more sense, and should be enough here. > However, it is, to put it mildly, unlikely that will happen; too many > of the mechanisms that would have to be convinced have a vested > interest in keeping it the way it is. Sad, but true. > I think the best thing "we" can do here is preserve things in a > demonstrably not-directly-usable form. That is, however, difficult; > second best is probably to privately keep archive copies, not > redistributed, until and unless someone comes forward with a credible > claim to being the owner. Yeah. Which is basically what I try to do. >> Me personally, I think we need to get HP to release it all. > > Quite aside from the other possible projblems with that mentioned > upthread, it's possible that the contract with Mentec is such that > that's not an option for them. (If HP doesn't have a copy of that > contract either, the Right Thing would be for them to negotiate some > kind of replacement with XX2247. Unfortunately, I can't see any > business case for them to spend the staff time that would involve.) Yes. But I still think that is the best bet for now. I think it could actually make sense for them to just put out a blanket statement that they release all claims on any PDP-11 software. That would hopefully not take much effort or time on their part, and it would be all that we need. However, I suspect that it's still a case that noone at HP really dares to do that. They don't have a clear idea what the ramifications would be, and so they will not. But one would hope that they will sooner or later feel that there is not anything left in there that they are willing to even think of. > It sucks. But, sometimes, the world loses. :-( Indeed. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 11:22:38 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:22:38 -0500 Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232? In-Reply-To: <5648B714.4030306@gmail.com> References: <56450A82.2000409@gmail.com> <5645F01D.6080305@update.uu.se> <5648B714.4030306@gmail.com> Message-ID: you just plug them in and run the program. I have never loaded any drivers. On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 11/14/2015 06:12 PM, william degnan wrote: > >> I have a copy of the laplink software should anyone need it. If the cable >> for parallel is just a null modem I suggest a person in this hobby >> definitely add laplink to the bag of tricks available. You just fire it >> up >> on both ends ll.exe ... and you'll see a directory tree of target >> machine >> on the right, the source machine on the left. Pick files and copy. >> Copies >> recursively etc. >> > > Hmm, is there no driver to let you map a directory on one machine to a > drive letter on the other? (and if not, is anyone aware of independent > software to do this?). > > I think that's probably what I really need, rather than some browser tool, > then I can write my own code if needs be to transfer data (to potentially > work around problems with corrupted filesystems, marginal sectors etc. on > ailing drives) > > Laplink cable wired up now. Might get time today to try it out... > > cheers > > Jules > > -- Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 15 11:32:54 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:32:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers Message-ID: <20151115173254.1F01118C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: js > if they still wanted income from it, it'd still be for sale. If it's > not for sale, and I can find it, then I'll use it and be sure not to > profit from it. This ties in with something called 'fair use' under US IP law, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use for more. Basically, 'fair use' permits _limited_ use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the IP owners; there is a 4-part test which is applied to determine whether a non-licensed use meets 'fair use'. The parts are: "- the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; - the nature of the copyrighted work; - the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and - the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work." ii) doesn't really apply here, and of course one would score poorly on iii), but since a) one's not making any money from it, that would score highly under i), and b) there is zero effect on the market, since the thing isn't even for sale, so scoring highly under iv). So use for vintage computer hobby puposes might well be (in the US at least) 'fair use', and not in fact infringing, even without a license. In other countries, it will depend on their copyright laws; e.g. in Israel and Poland, the same might be true. Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Nov 15 11:43:26 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 17:43:26 +0000 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5648916D.90002@compsys.to> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <56488BD7.8060003@btinternet.com> <5648916D.90002@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5648C43E.2030102@btinternet.com> Hi Interesting .. Oops .... Yes it was a long time ago Deep Throat tells Bernstein to 'follow the money' Sherlock Holmes said 'when you have eliminated everything else what you are left with however improbable is the answer' If I'm wrong and I haven't said anything then I will not be accused of putting future possibilities at risk. If somebody comes up with the same answer be it right or wrong I will tell them. Right now back to 11/70 front panels. Anybody know what the colours are called? On 15/11/15 14:06, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >rod wrote: > >> Well thats part of the picture but not I think all of it. >> >> If you take what Deep Throat told the Washington Post reporter to do >> and how Sherlock Holmes said you could solve most cases put them >> together and there is one >> one possible answer. >> >> >On 15/11/15 13:09, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> This is a long response, but I beg all people interested to read all >>> of it. >>> >>> [Snip] >> > This situation has been so confused for so many decades that > I am at a complete loss about what that "one possible answer" > may be. > > If you do have any information or conclusions, please share > them with all of us. At this point, I doubt that any new or > different information would make things any worse and that > additional clarification might help us to understand. > > Actually, although I understand your reference to Deep > Throat, I don't think I ever knew or I don't remember the > quote in question. I am probably not the only person. > > So PLEASE!!! > > Jerome Fine From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 15 12:08:13 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 10:08:13 -0800 Subject: 11/70 front panel colors In-Reply-To: <5648C43E.2030102@btinternet.com> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <56488BD7.8060003@btinternet.com> <5648916D.90002@compsys.to> <5648C43E.2030102@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5648CA0D.8030105@bitsavers.org> On 11/15/15 9:43 AM, rod wrote: > Right now back to 11/70 front panels. Anybody know what the colours are called? Magenta and Wild Rose From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 15 12:35:43 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 10:35:43 -0800 Subject: QIC Tape help with CRC - Dwight? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5648D07F.9070202@sydex.com> I guess I should throw my own experience on this. First off, it's useful to think about a CRC as just another checksum. Instead of using a simple addition, however, a somewhat more complex (table-drive) operation is used (that's your polynomial). In other words, if S is the CRC sum and I is the current input, a CRC is nothing more than S = sum(S,I) for every I. In the case of an arithmetic checksum the function "sum" is a simple addition. In a CRC it's more involved. You can see that the initial value of S is important. In CRCs, this initial value can be anything, but usually, it's 0 or all binary ones. Note that CRC calculation doesn't use arithmetic per se, but rather boolean ops and shifts. The character of the operation is dictated by the CRC polynomial. I'll go out on a limb here and say that most often the polynomial used in storage devices, where a 16-bit CRC is calculated is the standard CCITT CRC-16 one. There are exceptions, but really, assuming that polynomial is an excellent starting point. Once you've selected a polynomial candidate, the second thing to do is to determine exactly what the input to the CRC computation is. You'd think, for example, that on most IBM-type floppy disks, that it's the data in a sector--and you'd be wrong. Most floppy CRC computation includes the data address mark (DAM) as well. So, in a typical 1.44M IBM floppy, that data address mark would be hex "FB", followed by sector data. The third thing to consider is what order that bits are presented to the CRC calculator--that is, high-order or low-order bit first. Floppy disks mostly go one way and USRTs (synchronous comm) go the other way. So you could have the same value treated two different ways and get two completely different CRCs, based on the same polynomial. This is a real gotcha when dealing with early disk formats, as many of those used an inexpensive USRT or shift register rather than an expensive-for-the-time LSI controller. I find it useful to have a pair of simple test programs that, given a CRC polynomial and initial value and an input file, produce a CRC for comparison. One routine calculates little-bit endian and the other does the same for big-endian calculations. CRC_reveng is a great routine, but much of the time, it's overkill. For whatever it's worth, Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Nov 15 13:01:49 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:01:49 -0500 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5648BA31.6050103@update.uu.se> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <201511151628.LAA23686@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5648BA31.6050103@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > On Nov 15, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> ... >> Personally? I think the rightest way is to eliminiate the legal >> fiction called "intellectual property", as a good-sounding experiment >> that has failed. It is not producing the effects it was put in place >> to produce and it is producing a lot of other, ill, effects. > > Agree. I think the whole concept of intellectual property is weird. Calling some thought in your head a "property" have strange implications. If I say some words that makes you think of something, can I then make you violate my intellectual property? When if you thought of the same idea independently? How did you violate my intellectual property in that case? > > Weird... > > I think copyright law sortof makes more sense, and should be enough here. There are a lot of diffent ways to approach copyright questions. The first is to use only what is explicitly permitted. This is what Wikipedia and gutenberg.org do. It is also what retrocomputing people who run public domain software (like CDC COS or IBM OS/360 of the right vintage) or open source software do, or those who obtain licenses, hobbyist or otherwise. The second is to use what is readily available but stop when told to. This is what google seems to do; it also seems to be the bitsavers approach. A third is to claim that it's in the public domain if you can't find the owner, or even just because "it's on the Internet". When I critiqued the "abandonware" approach, this is what I was referring to. Note that there's a difference between "I know it's owned but I can't find the owner, I'll use it until asked to stop" (approach 2) and "I don't know the owner so I'll claim it doesn't have one" (approach 3). Somewhat unrelated is the argument about whether there should be copyright. If you disapprove of it, you're of course free to seek a Constitutional amendment (in the USA case) to abolish it. But you would get objections from anyone who makes his living writing books, or newspapers, or magazine articles. Also from a lot of people whose profession is the creation of software. If you've ever published anything, unless you released it into the public domain, you've used copyright (intellectual property law). That includes open source licenses, of course. paul From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 15 13:14:06 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:14:06 -0500 Subject: Rights vs Responsibilities (Was: To Al Kossow at bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5648D97E.5020408@compsys.to> Upon reading all the discussion over the past three days, I am extremely interested in the overall tone of the discourse. While there has been rather passionate argument at times, there does not seem to be any of the caustic comments that we have seen on occasion in the past. Congratulations EVERYONE!!!!!!! In addition, since I have never been directly involved with extremely large companies who employ thousands of actual software developers, my point of view will obviously be less experienced about some matters than others. On the other hand, I believe I have seen enough software practices and development of the past 55 years that I have at least some degree of understanding of the issues. However, there has been one aspect that seems to have been lost amidst all of the legal points vs issues of abandonware. The points which I will raise are concerned uniquely with the aspects which relate to IP rights over software vs what seems, at the moment in all legislation which is relevant, to the total lack of any responsibilities by the owner of the software. This list has members who are in a unique position to understand and evaluate and perhaps be in a position to formulate changes in the legal status for the IP in regards to software in order to bring in some balance between rights and responsibilities. I realize that the very large companies such as Microsoft and Apple would probably take immediate exception to having any responsibilities imposed. But perhaps it would actually be in their self-interest. As just an interesting aspect with respect to copyright and the IP associated with copyright, it is impossible to be given a copyright over a book which is to be published without providing every single character, comma and space that the book is composed of. Perhaps all software should be required to be handled in the same manner. In return for having copyright, perhaps all software should be required to make available and publish the actual source code so that the responsibilities which I outline below are also satisfied. Perhaps in lieu of publishing the source code, the owner of the copyright and the IP would continue to hold those rights only as long as the responsibilities were satisfied. Just a starting thought for the discussion, Note that with all the tools available to convert executable code back into source code, the owners of the copyright and the IP would only be making it less difficult to look at the code when the source code is also available. So as a start to seeing if the discussion might lead somewhere, I will start by looking at three important areas in software: SECURITY OF THE SOFTWARE The days when the internet was composed of only individuals and companies who all knew each other and were not going to cause harm to any of the members are long gone, if they were ever truly present. If the code for all software was published, then the actual security would consist of the way in which the passwords were managed. The days of backdoors and buffer overflows would rapidly disappear and many more eyes would be available to evaluate that aspect. And software would, of necessity, be required to start with security as a primary goal rather than being added at the end. BUGS IN THE SOFTWARE Most large software packages have some software bugs. If all of the code had to be published, it would be much easier for expert individuals to find and fix the bugs. Note that some bugs are security risks while others are not. Intense focus on security would allow for bugs in that area to be discovered and caught more quickly. But other bugs would be much more easily found and fixed if the source code is available. ENHANCEMENTS TO THE PROGRAM To often it takes users to protest for a long time for changes to be made. If code was written in a manner which allowed for the sharing of the revenues, the owner of the copyright and the IP could have a much more productive relationship and the end user would have much better software available. With the availability of the source code, anyone who is expert enough could enhance code which a short-sighted owner or an owner with a lack of resources neglected. While I don't think that even DECUS supported the sharing of revenue, it was certainly a powerful forum for enhancements to be made to DEC software. Suggestions are requested from everyone as to how the above three areas could become responsibilities of the owner of the copyright and the IP of software. Neglecting them, and any other areas, could be cause for requiring the transfer of the copyright and IP to others who are willing to taking on those responsibilities and perhaps the transfer price could be based on both a fraction of past profits and future profits with a scale that provides decreasing weight the further away in time those past profits and future profits occur. That would ensure that owners who are no longer prepared to support their software allow for an orderly transition. And when a given area of software is past its BEST BEFORE DATE and the profits vanish, any hobby users could begin to act without any legal problems. If somehow the software became profitable again, the original owners could still receive a portion of the new revenue based on how long the original owners had been inactive along with other factors. The point I am making is that perhaps instead of just complaining, a group could be formed which produces actual changes in the laws which govern software. Have any of the points I have mentioned been reasonable? Are there additional factors which need attention? If you think my approach is lacking in objectivity and substance, please advance you own point of view and suggest alternatives which will make a difference, not just keep the status quo. What is needed is enlightened self-interest on everyone's part as opposed to the solution which regards over fishing a given portion of the ocean until all the fish are gone as a satisfactory solution and time to move to a different location and repeat the same mistakes. Would it be possible to form a group which produces advice for changes in the laws that would be beneficial to all parties and provide owners of copyright and IP over software benefits at the same time that the users also benefit. In short a win-win situation under co-operation rather than the winner takes all approach. Jerome Fine From pete at pski.net Sun Nov 15 13:15:57 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:15:57 -0500 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <201511151628.LAA23686@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5648BA31.6050103@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <027BCA16-1A21-4F37-B9CB-D0D34C253F12@pski.net> > On Nov 15, 2015, at 2:01 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Nov 15, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> ... >>> Personally? I think the rightest way is to eliminiate the legal >>> fiction called "intellectual property", as a good-sounding experiment >>> that has failed. It is not producing the effects it was put in place >>> to produce and it is producing a lot of other, ill, effects. >> >> Agree. I think the whole concept of intellectual property is weird. Calling some thought in your head a "property" have strange implications. If I say some words that makes you think of something, can I then make you violate my intellectual property? When if you thought of the same idea independently? How did you violate my intellectual property in that case? >> > > There are a lot of diffent ways to approach copyright questions. > > The second is to use what is readily available but stop when told to. This is what google seems to do; it also seems to be the bitsavers approach. > The ?second? approach is what we are using for the TRS-80 Model II archive that Mark mentioned (https://github.com/pski/model2archive ). While we have received explicit permission from copyright owners that we can determine, such as Scott Adams for his Model II versions of the adventure games, the rest is made available until someone says ?please take this down because I own it and don?t want it distributed?. It seems to be the best balanced approach for rescuing the software from oblivion while also respecting authorship of no longer commercially available software. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Nov 15 13:20:03 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:20:03 -0500 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <027BCA16-1A21-4F37-B9CB-D0D34C253F12@pski.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <201511151628.LAA23686@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5648BA31.6050103@update.uu.se> <027BCA16-1A21-4F37-B9CB-D0D34C253F12@pski.net> Message-ID: <15CBE1C5-8CC3-4A5D-A660-6913B0E1388E@comcast.net> > On Nov 15, 2015, at 2:15 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > > >> On Nov 15, 2015, at 2:01 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Nov 15, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>>> Personally? I think the rightest way is to eliminiate the legal >>>> fiction called "intellectual property", as a good-sounding experiment >>>> that has failed. It is not producing the effects it was put in place >>>> to produce and it is producing a lot of other, ill, effects. >>> >>> Agree. I think the whole concept of intellectual property is weird. Calling some thought in your head a "property" have strange implications. If I say some words that makes you think of something, can I then make you violate my intellectual property? When if you thought of the same idea independently? How did you violate my intellectual property in that case? >>> >> >> There are a lot of diffent ways to approach copyright questions. >> >> The second is to use what is readily available but stop when told to. This is what google seems to do; it also seems to be the bitsavers approach. >> > > The ?second? approach is what we are using for the TRS-80 Model II archive that Mark mentioned (https://github.com/pski/model2archive ). While we have received explicit permission from copyright owners that we can determine, such as Scott Adams for his Model II versions of the adventure games, the rest is made available until someone says ?please take this down because I own it and don?t want it distributed?. It seems to be the best balanced approach for rescuing the software from oblivion while also respecting authorship of no longer commercially available software. Yes, I agree with that. FWIW, another exmaple of "approach 1" is the PLATO system at cyber1.org. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Nov 15 13:31:15 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:31:15 +0100 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <201511151628.LAA23686@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5648BA31.6050103@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5648DD83.8080804@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-15 20:01, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 15, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> ... >>> Personally? I think the rightest way is to eliminiate the legal >>> fiction called "intellectual property", as a good-sounding experiment >>> that has failed. It is not producing the effects it was put in place >>> to produce and it is producing a lot of other, ill, effects. >> >> Agree. I think the whole concept of intellectual property is weird. Calling some thought in your head a "property" have strange implications. If I say some words that makes you think of something, can I then make you violate my intellectual property? When if you thought of the same idea independently? How did you violate my intellectual property in that case? >> >> Weird... >> >> I think copyright law sortof makes more sense, and should be enough here. > > There are a lot of diffent ways to approach copyright questions. > > The first is to use only what is explicitly permitted. This is what Wikipedia and gutenberg.org do. It is also what retrocomputing people who run public domain software (like CDC COS or IBM OS/360 of the right vintage) or open source software do, or those who obtain licenses, hobbyist or otherwise. This is obviously the safest approach. However, it do limit what you can use. > The second is to use what is readily available but stop when told to. This is what google seems to do; it also seems to be the bitsavers approach. I think this can be acceptable, within some limits. For instance, making money in such a case would definitely be going to far, in my book. Also, establishing some kind of reputation, based on such sources would also be something I would disagree with. I don't know enough of bitsavers policy or approach to really comment. But my understanding of Google is that they seem to lean on the fair use clause a lot. Which means they do not publish full content, but only smaller parts, and this is legally ok to do. Now, this is just my understanding. I might be wrong in any number of ways on this... > A third is to claim that it's in the public domain if you can't find the owner, or even just because "it's on the Internet". When I critiqued the "abandonware" approach, this is what I was referring to. Note that there's a difference between "I know it's owned but I can't find the owner, I'll use it until asked to stop" (approach 2) and "I don't know the owner so I'll claim it doesn't have one" (approach 3). Yeah, I get the feeling this is where some of the arguments here end up, which also for me is an unacceptable conclusion. > Somewhat unrelated is the argument about whether there should be copyright. If you disapprove of it, you're of course free to seek a Constitutional amendment (in the USA case) to abolish it. But you would get objections from anyone who makes his living writing books, or newspapers, or magazine articles. Also from a lot of people whose profession is the creation of software. If you've ever published anything, unless you released it into the public domain, you've used copyright (intellectual property law). That includes open source licenses, of course. I personally don't have a problem with copyright. I do have some issues with "owning" ideas... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Nov 15 13:37:01 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:37:01 -0500 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <5648DD83.8080804@update.uu.se> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <201511151628.LAA23686@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5648BA31.6050103@update.uu.se> <5648DD83.8080804@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <29950010-2913-48E3-93F1-3B8166F178BE@comcast.net> > On Nov 15, 2015, at 2:31 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > ... > I personally don't have a problem with copyright. I do have some issues with "owning" ideas... :-) That's fine, so do I. Copyright has nothing to do with owning ideas, it only covers a particular expression of an idea. I suppose the term "intellectual property" might suggest otherwise, but the rules around copyright are quite clear about this. (Patents are somewhat different, but they are are far more limited in time.) paul From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Nov 15 13:53:20 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:53:20 +0100 Subject: Rights vs Responsibilities (Was: To Al Kossow at bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <5648D97E.5020408@compsys.to> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> <5648D97E.5020408@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5648E2B0.90200@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-15 20:14, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Upon reading all the discussion over the past three days, I am > extremely interested in the overall tone of the discourse. While > there has been rather passionate argument at times, there does > not seem to be any of the caustic comments that we have seen > on occasion in the past. Congratulations EVERYONE!!!!!!! > > In addition, since I have never been directly involved with extremely > large companies who employ thousands of actual software > developers, my point of view will obviously be less experienced > about some matters than others. On the other hand, I believe I > have seen enough software practices and development of the past > 55 years that I have at least some degree of understanding of > the issues. > > However, there has been one aspect that seems to have been > lost amidst all of the legal points vs issues of abandonware. > > The points which I will raise are concerned uniquely with the > aspects which relate to IP rights over software vs what seems, > at the moment in all legislation which is relevant, to the total lack > of any responsibilities by the owner of the software. This list > has members who are in a unique position to understand and > evaluate and perhaps be in a position to formulate changes in > the legal status for the IP in regards to software in order to > bring in some balance between rights and responsibilities. Ugh! I own something, and now you want me to have a responsibility to any number of people because of this. That is unreasonable, and could in fact mean that my best course of action would be not to publish something. How do that make things better??? I honestly think this is an even worse idea than IP in the first place. > I realize that the very large companies such as Microsoft and > Apple would probably take immediate exception to having > any responsibilities imposed. But perhaps it would actually > be in their self-interest. The very large companies would not have a big problem with this. I'm sure they have all the resources required to find a way to wiggle through it. It's the small companies and individuals that would suffer. > As just an interesting aspect with respect to copyright and the > IP associated with copyright, it is impossible to be given a > copyright over a book which is to be published without > providing every single character, comma and space that > the book is composed of. Perhaps all software should be > required to be handled in the same manner. In return for > having copyright, perhaps all software should be required > to make available and publish the actual source code so > that the responsibilities which I outline below are also > satisfied. Perhaps in lieu of publishing the source code, > the owner of the copyright and the IP would continue to > hold those rights only as long as the responsibilities were > satisfied. Just a starting thought for the discussion, Note > that with all the tools available to convert executable code > back into source code, the owners of the copyright and > the IP would only be making it less difficult to look at the > code when the source code is also available. Not so. Reverse engineering the code do not produce the same information as the source code. A lot of information gets lost in the translation from source code to executable. Typically things that the computer do not care about, but which people very much may care about. Such as *why* a specific solution was done, information about side effects that the coder should be aware of if he changes anything, general conventions used in the code, possible commented out code that is kept for reference, special effects of routines that are especially important... The list goes on. The disassembled binary is no way near what the source code is. Not to mention when you use a high level language with a good optimizer. Then you get another layer of obscurity, since you might not at all be able to reconstruct back the actual high level source code that was used. > Have any of the points I have mentioned been reasonable? Are > there additional factors which need attention? If you think my > approach is lacking in objectivity and substance, please advance > you own point of view and suggest alternatives which will make > a difference, not just keep the status quo. What is needed is > enlightened self-interest on everyone's part as opposed to the > solution which regards over fishing a given portion of the ocean > until all the fish are gone as a satisfactory solution and time to > move to a different location and repeat the same mistakes. I think your ideas are totally unreasonable. If I own something, I ought to be free to do with it as I please, including deleting it. What you are suggesting is that instead I would have an obligation to help others who want to poke at it. I might not have the time, interest, inclination, or motivation to do that. Then what? Revenue sharing? Who cares? It might be way less return than my time costs. Security? Bugs? Well, if someone are interested in working on that level, DEC did sell you sources. You were free to pay for that, if you wanted it. They did not actually deny you that ability. But you could not make a business then producing your own version and selling it, because you still did not own the copyright. Just like you cannot buy a book, fix spelling errors, add a few chapters, and then start selling it as your book. You would, however, be free to submit back any changes you do, to the copyright holder, who could do whatever he wants with them. If you made something really good, you could also enter into a discussion with the copyright holder about them paying you for your improvement, and integrate it into their work. That would apply to both software and books. Just because you have some issues with some software you paid for, and use, do not mean that you suddenly have any more rights than the ones bestowed on you by the agreement at purchase. Applies equally to software and books. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Nov 15 13:55:52 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:55:52 -0500 Subject: Rights vs Responsibilities (Was: To Al Kossow at bitsavers) Message-ID: <6a89e.20dd787e.437a3d48@aol.com> yes, I was impressed too! In a message dated 11/15/2015 12:53:26 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, bqt at update.uu.se writes: Upon reading all the discussion over the past three days, I am > extremely interested in the overall tone of the discourse. While > there has been rather passionate argument at times, there does > not seem to be any of the caustic comments that we have seen > on occasion in the past. Congratulations EVERYONE!!!!!!! From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Nov 15 13:56:02 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:56:02 +0100 Subject: To Al Kossow at bitsavers In-Reply-To: <29950010-2913-48E3-93F1-3B8166F178BE@comcast.net> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <201511151628.LAA23686@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5648BA31.6050103@update.uu.se> <5648DD83.8080804@update.uu.se> <29950010-2913-48E3-93F1-3B8166F178BE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5648E352.1050705@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-15 20:37, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 15, 2015, at 2:31 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> ... >> I personally don't have a problem with copyright. I do have some issues with "owning" ideas... :-) > > That's fine, so do I. Copyright has nothing to do with owning ideas, it only covers a particular expression of an idea. I suppose the term "intellectual property" might suggest otherwise, but the rules around copyright are quite clear about this. I think we're pretty much on the same page. Intellectual Property, as I use it here, covers more than just copyright. > (Patents are somewhat different, but they are are far more limited in time.) Let's not even go there. Software patents are a quagmire. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jason at textfiles.com Sun Nov 15 14:49:39 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 21:49:39 +0100 Subject: Oh boy, copyright discussion. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm very disappointed this only flares up once every month or two, is there any chance we could make it once a week? The reality of perpetual and automatic copyright that extends past the death of all listed creators means that there are a lot of pieces of items that have no advocate, financial interest, or caretaker either legal or otherwise. It is a ridiculous situation. The arguments where the only two options are this "Zardoz" environment or water break down of the entire copyright machine, is old and bores me. The reality as I have experienced it is that there are a few white-hot pinpricks of interest and legitimacy by a vanishingly small amount of companies, and then there is a vast Black Sea of unwanted, uninteresting, forgotten items. This works for software as well as everything else. If there is a choice between oblivion and the dumpster, and sending it to the Internet Archive, I will ensure that our doors are open. That's all I can offer to everyone here. You can reach me at this address or by calling the archive directly if you don't want to deal with me. If all you have to offer is another 7 paragraphs of bloviating, that's why they make the mute button. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 15 15:10:10 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:10:10 -0800 Subject: Oh boy, copyright discussion. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> On 11/15/2015 12:49 PM, Jason Scott wrote: > If all you have to offer is another 7 paragraphs of bloviating, that's why > they make the mute button. Really, guys, you should look to the motion picture and musical industry if you want an exhaustive treatment on this subject. In many, if not most, EU countries, copyright has pretty much always extended past the lifetime of the creator. Traditionally, it's been life+50 or life+75. Enough to take care of one's widow and children. But there are anomalous cases. Consider the work "Lullaby" penned by George Gershwin back around 1917. Had Gershwin published the work, it would be in the public domain. It was discovered long after his death in his papers by brother Ira and finally published in the 60s, where it now enjoys a very long life under copyright. Note that Ira didn't compose it or even know about it before its discovery, but there you go. To the best of my knowledge, Warner Brothers is still collecting license fees for the tune "Happy Birthday to You", even though neither of the two sisters involved in its composition are tied to the copyright. That in itself is an interesting story, considering that the ditty in its original form was publish in the 1890s as "Good Morning to You". (one note difference). Is it fair? Obviously not. But it is what it is, If you don't like it, lobby for change with your leaders. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Nov 15 15:40:58 2015 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 16:40:58 -0500 Subject: Oh boy, copyright discussion. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When it comes down to it with so many mergers and company deaths in the software industry it might be hard for owners to prove they even own something anymore. So the odds of you ending up in court are not that great. -----Original Message----- From: Jason Scott Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 3:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Oh boy, copyright discussion. I'm very disappointed this only flares up once every month or two, is there any chance we could make it once a week? The reality of perpetual and automatic copyright that extends past the death of all listed creators means that there are a lot of pieces of items that have no advocate, financial interest, or caretaker either legal or otherwise. It is a ridiculous situation. The arguments where the only two options are this "Zardoz" environment or water break down of the entire copyright machine, is old and bores me. The reality as I have experienced it is that there are a few white-hot pinpricks of interest and legitimacy by a vanishingly small amount of companies, and then there is a vast Black Sea of unwanted, uninteresting, forgotten items. This works for software as well as everything else. If there is a choice between oblivion and the dumpster, and sending it to the Internet Archive, I will ensure that our doors are open. That's all I can offer to everyone here. You can reach me at this address or by calling the archive directly if you don't want to deal with me. If all you have to offer is another 7 paragraphs of bloviating, that's why they make the mute button. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From brain at jbrain.com Sun Nov 15 15:46:13 2015 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:46:13 -0600 Subject: Oh boy, copyright discussion. In-Reply-To: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> References: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5648FD25.1080602@jbrain.com> On 11/15/2015 3:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > To the best of my knowledge, Warner Brothers is still collecting > license fees for the tune "Happy Birthday to You", even though neither > of the two sisters involved in its composition are tied to the > copyright. That in itself is an interesting story, considering that > the ditty in its original form was publish in the 1890s as "Good > Morning to You". (one note difference). I can't ascertain if Warner/Chappell Music are still collecting copyright royalties (as in post September 22, 2015), but unless they appeal the most recent lawsuit, they can no longer do so: https://ia601904.us.archive.org/13/items/gov.uscourts.cacd.564772/gov.uscourts.cacd.564772.244.0.pdf Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 15 15:48:49 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:48:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oh boy, copyright discussion. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Nov 2015, TeoZ wrote: > When it comes down to it with so many mergers and company deaths in the > software industry it might be hard for owners to prove they even own > something anymore. So the odds of you ending up in court are not that great. Or, it could INCREASE it. How many entities could claim pieces of Visicalc? When Apparat infringed TRS-DOS 2.1, they faced lawyers from both Tandy AND Randy Cook. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Nov 15 15:57:00 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 21:57:00 +0000 Subject: 11/70 front panel colors In-Reply-To: <5648CA0D.8030105@bitsavers.org> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <56488BD7.8060003@btinternet.com> <5648916D.90002@compsys.to> <5648C43E.2030102@btinternet.com> <5648CA0D.8030105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5648FFAC.4040402@btinternet.com> Thanks Al Well they say you never stop leaning and I did not know that. Rod On 15/11/15 18:08, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/15/15 9:43 AM, rod wrote: > >> Right now back to 11/70 front panels. Anybody know what the colours >> are called? > > Magenta and Wild Rose > > From microtechdart at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 16:52:21 2015 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 16:52:21 -0600 Subject: QIC Tape help with CRC - Dwight? In-Reply-To: <56486335.2080003@ljw.me.uk> References: <56486335.2080003@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: Lawrence, Dwight & Chuck...thank you! The revelation that I can append 84CF to the 512-byte data block and the 4-byte block address, is golden, and this works! It would have taken a lot longer for me to figure out on my own that this was a work-around, and at least one working interpretation of the confusing text I was quoting from the manuals. I don't grasp all of the rest of what you shared fully, but now I at least have an example of something that works to play with, and from there, I hope to get more comfortable with this procedure, and write some programs that do this checking to validate each block I read with my Universal QIC reader system. I've updated my web page about QIC-24 decoding CRC section to include this knowledge: http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html#CRC Thank you again! -AJ On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 4:49 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On 15/11/15 11:15, Microtech Dart wrote: > > (snip) >> "The cyclical redundancy check (CRC) shall consist of two bytes, >> calculated >> over the 512 bytes of interchange data, and the 4-byte block address, >> *starting >> with all ONEs, CRC initial value*, and using the CRC Generating >> polynomial: >> x16 + x12 + x5 + 1 >> >> *"starting with all ONEs, CRC initial value"*? What does THAT mean? Do I >> need to do some kind of register shift? xorin or xorout? >> > It's the initial value of each bit, corresponding to the "Init before > calculation" lines in the code at the bottom of the page. There doesn't > seem to be any provision for entering this value in the online > computation (and all-zeros is *not* a good initialisation vector!) > > One way around this would be to come up with a byte sequence that > gave a CRC of all ones (i.e. 84 CF) and pre-pend that to the main > sequence, and then it works. But I assume you're using some sort of > code, so just make sure it's initialised appropriately. > > >> I've even played with http://reveng.sourceforge.net/, but I'm having >> trouble even understanding the meaning of the input values and parameters >> with this. >> >> I appreciate any feedback that anyone can give, here. >> >> Best of luck! CRCs are fun! > > -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 > > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 15 17:03:21 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:03:21 -0800 Subject: Oh boy, copyright discussion. In-Reply-To: <5648FD25.1080602@jbrain.com> References: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> <5648FD25.1080602@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <56490F39.9060805@sydex.com> On 11/15/2015 01:46 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > I can't ascertain if Warner/Chappell Music are still collecting > copyright royalties (as in post September 22, 2015), but unless they > appeal the most recent lawsuit, they can no longer do so: I fully expect them to appeal--the fees amount to about a million a year, so there's plenty of motivation. --Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Nov 15 17:10:29 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:10:29 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4051 RAMPACK - new design In-Reply-To: <56490F39.9060805@sydex.com> References: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> <5648FD25.1080602@jbrain.com> <56490F39.9060805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <564910E5.3000108@sbcglobal.net> I was contacted by Micheal D. Cranford from the Tektronix Museum up in OR about a design for a ROM module for the Tektronix 4051 graphic computer. It looks to be a very useful item. See the description below. He's looking to build up some of them and make them available. Cost would be about $100 each, assembled. He needs seven people to make it worthwhile, I would take two, so we need five more people. Anyone interested? Let me know! Bob _____________________________________________________________________________________ Bob: I just saw your website today since another ex-Tek friend pointed it out to me. I am currently nearing the completion of a RAMPACK for the 4051. I am making this for the Tektronix Museum located in Oregon (http://www.vintagetek.org/) which is totally maintained by former Tektronix employees. The purpose of the RAMPACK is to effectively replace the mag tape drive since the latter requires mag tape cartridges that are no longer made and the tension bands degrade over time and fail. The lack of functional mag tape cartridges can quite severely limit the usefulness of the 4051. Since the Tek museum cannot demo the 4051 very well due to the lack of reliable mag tape cartridges and any user created programs disappear with powering down, I decided to create the RAMPACK. I had actually started working on that decades ago when I was at Tek but at the time it was just for speeding up file manipulations and that RAMPACK was totally DRAM based. The new version in contrast is non-volatile and it holds far more data. Note that this is a plug-in ROM PACK and it does not require altering the mag tape drive or the 4051 computer in any way. The RAMPACK contains about 2MB of high reliability guaranteed 100+ years of data retention time flash memory, which totals to at least seven DC300A mag tape cartridges worth of data. In actual practice it will hold more than seven cartridges worth since the mag tape storage is inefficient with small files. As an example a DC600 cannot hold 256 files of minimal length (768 bytes) since each inter-file gap takes nearly 4 inches of tape. In contrast my RAMPACK can hold 511 files of 4KB each. You create and access RAMPACK files just like any other GBIP device on the 4051. Each RAMPACK has a unique IO address and multiple RAMPACKs can be installed at the same time. Simple examples include (the below assumes installation in the right rear slot in the back of the 4051): 1. FIND @51:1 2. MARK @51:2,4096 MARK 2 files that are 4KB byte long. Note that marked files will always be multiples of 4KB in size, and the MARK command will automatically pick the smallest multiple of 4KB that includes the user specified size. 3. SAVE @51: 4. FIND @51:1 5. OLD @51: 6. FIND @51:2 7. PRINT @51:A, A$ 8. CLOSE 9. FIND @51:2 10. INPUT @51:A,A$ 11. Etc. There are about 23 functions that support ASCII program and ASCII or BINARY data files, write protecting arbitrary files, SAVE and OLD/APPEND for SECRET programs. listing the details about all of the RAMPACK files (the equivalent of TLIST), checking the current file status, naming each file (names can be up to 24 ASCII characters long) and a whole bunch more. The RAMPACK can also update its own firmware. -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 15 17:53:55 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 18:53:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Rights vs Responsibilities (Was: To Al Kossow at bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <5648D97E.5020408@compsys.to> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <08F687AF-4070-4705-8916-28FD4F6E0764@nf6x.net> <5647CA19.3060200@btinternet.com> <9E06FDE6-4DC2-44F0-9660-74EA7DDFAD45@nf6x.net> <5647DF9D.5010706@update.uu.se> <5648D97E.5020408@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201511152353.SAA05662@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] IP rights over software vs what seems, at the moment in all > legislation which is relevant, to the total lack of any > responsibilities by the owner of the software. This is an interesting point, which I had not thought of, nor seen raised elsewhere, before. On the one hand, it's true in general that any system involving rights without associated responsibilities grows concomitant abuses. (Responsibilities without corresponding rights is a different bag of problems, but not very relevant here.) On the other hand, you need to be very careful exactly what responsibilities you impose, or this could have an even more deadening effect on software creation than existing IP law. Of course, depending on your biases and what software creation would be impacted by the details in question, you may consider such deadening a Good Thing. (For example, I personally wouldn't mind making it more expensive to create, or at least commercially distribute, closed-source software, provided it doesn't also impact open-source software.) I suspect this is a case of "ask five people, get at least six answers". > SECURITY OF THE SOFTWARE > The days when the internet was composed of [...] This is a specious argument; not all software has anything to do with the Internet. (I don't think this will stop being so, either, despite all the Internet-of-things advocates trying to, basically, do that.) > BUGS IN THE SOFTWARE > Most large software packages have some software bugs. Most? All, I would say. I doubt there exists nontrivial software without bugs - and I'm not sure about trivial software, either, though it's possible a few of the smallest examples qualify. > If all of the code had to be published, it would be a substantial, possibly unjustifiable, cost in some cases. Consider someone making, oh, say, thermostats. They don't distribute their software except embedded within their devices. Why should they have to provide for software distribution channels? Consider the same thing, only instead of ROM code and a microprocessor core, they have a FPGA that loads its config from flash. Consider the same thing, only the FPGA config is in mask-programmed ROM. Consider it with a mask-programmed gate array instead of an FPGA. Consider the same thing implemented with discrete logic. Where do you draw the line between "software" and "not software"? > ENHANCEMENTS TO THE PROGRAM > To often it takes users to protest for a long time for changes to be > made. Why is this a bad thing? In some cases it can be, certainly, but I'm far from convinced it always is. Your argument here, again, appears to be designed around the "end user running software on a general-purpose desktop computer" paradigm. You need to take into account the rest of the software out there if you want your changeas to be a serious contender in the real world - or at least you need to explain why it's OK to ignore those things. > The point I am making is that perhaps instead of just complaining, a > group could be formed which produces actual changes in the laws which > govern software. There's another point: copyright applies to a lot more than software. You need to make sure your changes are at least tolerable for other copyrighted things, or else you need to somehow manage to draw a line between "software" and "not-software" (a notoriously hard line to draw; consider the famous t-shirt which had an implementation of RSA bar-code printed onto it). > Would it be possible to form a group which produces advice for > changes in the laws that would be beneficial to all parties and > provide owners of copyright and IP over software benefits at the same > time that the users also benefit. I doubt it, largely because it seems to me that at least two of the affected groups have more or less diametrically opposed interests. (Mind you, I'd love to be proved wrong in this regard.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 18:27:55 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 19:27:55 -0500 Subject: Oh boy, copyright discussion. In-Reply-To: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> References: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 15 November 2015 at 16:10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > In many, if not most, EU countries, copyright has pretty much always > extended past the lifetime of the creator. Traditionally, it's been life+50 > or life+75. Enough to take care of one's widow and children. > It's Life plus 70 years in the EU and the United States. Life plus 50 in Canada. (Though depending on what happens with that wonderful TPP, it might become Life+70 here too...) Though, of note the software that sparked this discussion is not under a "personal" copyright in the USA. It's under a corporate copyright. Which is either 120 years after creation, or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter. (In this case 95 years.) RT-11 V1 was released in 1973, and thus will become PD in 2069. RT-11 V5.7 was released in 1998, and thus will become public domain in 2094. RSX-11/M+ V4.6 was released in 1999, and thus will become PD in 2095. RSTS/E V10.1 was released in 1992, and thus will become PD in 2088. VMS V1.0 was released in 1977, and thus will become PD in 2073. OpenVMS V7.3 was released in 2001, and thus will become PD in 2097. Oh, and here's some fun non-DEC ones: UNIX Version 5 was released in 1974, and thus will become PD in 2070. MS-DOS 1.0 was released in 1981, and thus will become PD in 2077. To put it lightly, these copyright terms are beyond excessive, in my own opinion. I'm probably not going to be wrong in saying that none of the pieces of software I mentioned will go into the public domain before all the original creators and users have died. Hell, most of the software probably won't go into the public domain before the *children* of those who created the software will have died. Best regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 15 19:16:29 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 17:16:29 -0800 Subject: Oh boy, copyright discussion. In-Reply-To: References: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56492E6D.3080908@sydex.com> On 11/15/2015 04:27 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > > To put it lightly, these copyright terms are beyond excessive, in my > own opinion. I'm probably not going to be wrong in saying that none > of the pieces of software I mentioned will go into the public domain > before all the original creators and users have died. Hell, most of > the software probably won't go into the public domain before the > *children* of those who created the software will have died. Remember that Mary Bono (widow of Sonny and US House Representative for California's 45th distrct 2003-2013) really wanted a copyright term extension to perpetuity. When informed that would be unconstitutional, she settled for the current US term as described in the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act of 1998. In fact, the question was put before the Supreme Court and the opinion at the time was that copyright term had to be fixed, but could be increased incrementally without limit. So, unless the current corporate winds suddenly change direction, expect that 95 year to be "amended". After all, we must protect Mickey Mouse until he's long passed out of human memory. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 22:26:21 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:26:21 -0800 Subject: Shipping help near Fresno, CA Message-ID: <56495AED.8030801@gmail.com> I've been trying to get a PDP-8/m out of Fresno, CA for a few months now; the person I'm getting it from is alternately unwilling and unable to prep the machine for transport (the latest excuse is that he can't find a suitable pallet). This is a single full-height rack, probably about 500lbs -- is there anyone on the list nearby (Fresno, CA) who might be able to prep the machine for transport (e.g. strap it to a pallet, maybe put some padding over the front panel to reduce the possibility of damage)? Then I can get a shipper to drop by and pick it up. I'll gladly compensate you for your time/effort. Thanks! Josh From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sun Nov 15 23:14:46 2015 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:14:46 +0100 Subject: Tektronix 4051 RAMPACK - new design In-Reply-To: <564910E5.3000108@sbcglobal.net> References: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> <5648FD25.1080602@jbrain.com> <56490F39.9060805@sydex.com> <564910E5.3000108@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56496646.6090901@bluewin.ch> On 16.11.2015 00:10, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I was contacted by Micheal D. Cranford from the Tektronix Museum up in OR about > a design for a ROM module for the Tektronix 4051 graphic computer. It looks to be a very > useful item. See the description below. He's looking to build up some of them and make them > available. Cost would be about $100 each, assembled. He needs seven people to make it > worthwhile, I would take two, so we need five more people. > > Anyone interested? Let me know! > I could use 2, if they are also usable on a TEK4052. ( and if you are shipping outside US ) Jos From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon Nov 16 00:24:53 2015 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:24:53 +0100 Subject: QIC Tape help with CRC - Dwight? In-Reply-To: References: <56486335.2080003@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <564976B5.7090809@ljw.me.uk> Ah, I thought you were writing a specific program, but if you're just documenting things then specifying the CRC polynomial and the init value as all-ones should be sufficient. The corresponding init parameter of reveng is "-i ffff". On 15/11/15 23:52, Microtech Dart wrote: > Lawrence, Dwight & Chuck...thank you! > > The revelation that I can append 84CF to the 512-byte data block and the > 4-byte block address, is golden, and this works! The other thing to point out is that if you append the CRC to your original block, the resulting CRC should be 0000. e.g. 84 CF FF FF gives 0000 This means there's no need to do a specific 'CRC check', but after your data block you keep feeding the CRC bytes in and then check that the result is 0000. > > It would have taken a lot longer for me to figure out on my own that this > was a work-around, and at least one working interpretation of the confusing > text I was quoting from the manuals. > > I don't grasp all of the rest of what you shared fully, but now I at least > have an example of something that works to play with, and from there, I > hope to get more comfortable with this procedure, and write some programs > that do this checking to validate each block I read with my Universal QIC > reader system. > > I've updated my web page about QIC-24 decoding CRC section to include this > knowledge: > > http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html#CRC When specifying a CRC it's always good to provide a short example that can be used to validate an implementation - it doesn't need to be a whole block, but just 10 or so bytes together with the resulting CRC. > > Thank you again! > > -AJ > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From microtechdart at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 02:01:02 2015 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 02:01:02 -0600 Subject: QIC Tape help with CRC - Dwight? In-Reply-To: <564976B5.7090809@ljw.me.uk> References: <56486335.2080003@ljw.me.uk> <564976B5.7090809@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: Thanks, Lawrence, again. Actually, I am writing a very specific program, for my universal tape reader system to do these CRC checks as the program identifies each block. Thanks to adding the 84CF, this has now been made much, much easier. I'm still new to all of this though, so while my program works as of tonight, there is still much for me to learn about how these work. Great information, please...keep it coming! Thanks again, -AJ On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 12:24 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > Ah, I thought you were writing a specific program, but if you're > just documenting things then specifying the CRC polynomial and > the init value as all-ones should be sufficient. > > The corresponding init parameter of reveng is "-i ffff". > > On 15/11/15 23:52, Microtech Dart wrote: > >> Lawrence, Dwight & Chuck...thank you! >> >> The revelation that I can append 84CF to the 512-byte data block and the >> 4-byte block address, is golden, and this works! >> > The other thing to point out is that if you append the CRC to > your original block, the resulting CRC should be 0000. > > e.g. 84 CF FF FF gives 0000 > > This means there's no need to do a specific 'CRC check', but > after your data block you keep feeding the CRC bytes in and > then check that the result is 0000. > > >> It would have taken a lot longer for me to figure out on my own that this >> was a work-around, and at least one working interpretation of the >> confusing >> text I was quoting from the manuals. >> >> I don't grasp all of the rest of what you shared fully, but now I at least >> have an example of something that works to play with, and from there, I >> hope to get more comfortable with this procedure, and write some programs >> that do this checking to validate each block I read with my Universal QIC >> reader system. >> >> I've updated my web page about QIC-24 decoding CRC section to include this >> knowledge: >> >> >> http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html#CRC >> > When specifying a CRC it's always good to provide a short > example that can be used to validate an implementation - it > doesn't need to be a whole block, but just 10 or so bytes > together with the resulting CRC. > >> >> Thank you again! >> >> -AJ >> >> -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 > > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 16 02:38:01 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:38:01 +0000 Subject: To-days Panelman Poser Message-ID: <564995E9.9090201@btinternet.com> Hi Guys! I am the happy owner of a DEC 3000 in other words an Alpha. It is fully working and boots VMS and goes into DEC windows just as it should. Its running a high res 23" colour monitor in RGB As you all are aware I spend my time recreating PDP front panels. (Hopefully the example panel will arrive to-day and I can release the current batch to screening. ) Anyway I thought it would be nice to at least get some pictures up on the Alpha and maybe do a little panel design on it. If you are asking why would I want to do that. Then I might suggest you may not be on the right list. So there you have it; picture display (gif, tif and so on) and a bit of cad on my Alpha (mono is fine.) What do I need and where do I get it? Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Nov 16 04:25:49 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:25:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4051 RAMPACK - new design In-Reply-To: <564910E5.3000108@sbcglobal.net> References: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> <5648FD25.1080602@jbrain.com> <56490F39.9060805@sydex.com> <564910E5.3000108@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Nov 2015, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I was contacted by Micheal D. Cranford from the Tektronix Museum up in OR > about > a design for a ROM module for the Tektronix 4051 graphic computer. It looks > to be a very > useful item. See the description below. He's looking to build up some of them > and make them > available. Cost would be about $100 each, assembled. He needs seven people to > make it > worthwhile, I would take two, so we need five more people. Something similar has been done over 30 years ago, see ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/tektronix/tek4051/backram/ The module is called BACKRAM, and you are supposed to load the contents with RAM_LOADER.PRG. We use the COMBIROM file that has many very useful routines for tape and CBM disk handling. I've attached a CBM 8050 drive to the Tektronix 4051. To use the BACKRAM I only need one tape cartridge that holds the loader and RAM image. Christian From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Nov 16 03:29:08 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 09:29:08 +0000 (WET) Subject: To-days Panelman Poser In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:38:01 +0000" <564995E9.9090201@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <01PT6H6CAY2E00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> rod wrote: > > Hi Guys! > I am the happy owner of a DEC 3000 in other words an Alpha. > It is fully working and boots VMS and goes into DEC windows just as it > should. > Its running a high res 23" colour monitor in RGB > > As you all are aware I spend my time recreating PDP front panels. > (Hopefully the example panel will arrive to-day and I can release the > current batch to screening. ) > > Anyway I thought it would be nice to at least get some pictures up on > the Alpha and maybe do a little panel design on it. > If you are asking why would I want to do that. Then I might suggest you > may not be on the right list. > > So there you have it; picture display (gif, tif and so on) and a bit of > cad on my Alpha (mono is fine.) > What do I need and where do I get it? > John Bradley's XV is great for viewing lots of types of images and fiddling with your DECWindows background. It can also be used for image editing but you probably want something more that this for designing panels. ftp://ftp.cis.upenn.edu/pub/xv/ http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/xv/ ftp://ftp.digiater.nl/openvms/decus/vmslt98b/moreau/xv-310a2-vms.zip As far as I remember, it's a bit of a chore to build it, however, there may be executables available on some of the VMS freeware CDs. Look for one with PNG support as this was the last to be added. If you can't find any, I can send you one if you are happy enough to trust me. Another possibility is to use the SWB web browser to view images but this is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ethan at 757.org Mon Nov 16 08:51:42 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 09:51:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Oh boy, copyright discussion. In-Reply-To: <56492E6D.3080908@sydex.com> References: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> <56492E6D.3080908@sydex.com> Message-ID: > So, unless the current corporate winds suddenly change direction, expect that > 95 year to be "amended". After all, we must protect Mickey Mouse until he's > long passed out of human memory. The irony being that Mickey Mouse was stolen :-) -- Ethan O'Toole From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 16 09:56:30 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:56:30 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4051 RAMPACK - new design In-Reply-To: <56496646.6090901@bluewin.ch> References: <5648F4B2.7040006@sydex.com> <5648FD25.1080602@jbrain.com> <56490F39.9060805@sydex.com> <564910E5.3000108@sbcglobal.net> <56496646.6090901@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <5649FCAE.90004@sbcglobal.net> On 11/15/2015 9:14 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > On 16.11.2015 00:10, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> I was contacted by Micheal D. Cranford from the Tektronix Museum up >> in OR about >> a design for a ROM module for the Tektronix 4051 graphic computer. It >> looks to be a very >> useful item. See the description below. He's looking to build up some >> of them and make them >> available. Cost would be about $100 each, assembled. He needs seven >> people to make it >> worthwhile, I would take two, so we need five more people. >> >> Anyone interested? Let me know! >> > I could use 2, if they are also usable on a TEK4052. > ( and if you are shipping outside US ) > > Jos > > Unfortunately the 4052 / 4054 are not supported. It's a bit slice (2901's) design which only emulates some of the 6800 instructions, but not all. The ROM packs are not compatible. The memory structure is different also. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 16 10:21:35 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:21:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Testing bus transceivers Message-ID: <20151116162135.E02C818C0F8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I have bought a number of DS8641 bus transceivers from a source in China, and cognizant of the claims that there are a lot of counterfeits coming from China, how can I test them to make sure the meet specs? I have a QBUS test board which I have constructed (it's basically just a single read/write register), so I can verify their _basic_ functionality; but the UNIBUS/QBUS specs give a number of analog qualifications, and it's those I'd like to check. Some of them I can figure out how to test, although a couple of them would seem to need special test rigs, e.g. input high threshold of 2.5V and low threshold of 1.4V, but I _think_ I can work out how to test those - a board with a pot on it, so I can vary the input voltage, and see where the output switches. (I'm not necessarily going to test every last chip, but I'd like to do random samples.) However, there are others of which I'm not at all clear how to test, e.g. output high leakage current of 25 uA. How would I test that? (And replies of the form 'use such and such an approach' probably aren't detailed enough for me - my analog-fu is pretty weak - so details would be most greatly appreciated! ;-) Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 16 10:21:38 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:21:38 +0000 Subject: To-days Panelman Poser In-Reply-To: <01PT6H6CAY2E00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PT6H6CAY2E00ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <564A0292.9090000@btinternet.com> Thank you Peter I'll follow it up rod On 16/11/15 09:29, Peter Coghlan wrote: > rod wrote: >> >> Hi Guys! >> I am the happy owner of a DEC 3000 in other words an >> Alpha. >> It is fully working and boots VMS and goes into DEC windows just as >> it should. >> Its running a high res 23" colour monitor in RGB >> >> As you all are aware I spend my time recreating PDP front panels. >> (Hopefully the example panel will arrive to-day and I can release the >> current batch to screening. ) >> >> Anyway I thought it would be nice to at least get some pictures up >> on the Alpha and maybe do a little panel design on it. >> If you are asking why would I want to do that. Then I might suggest >> you may not be on the right list. >> >> So there you have it; picture display (gif, tif and so on) and a bit >> of cad on my Alpha (mono is fine.) >> What do I need and where do I get it? >> > > John Bradley's XV is great for viewing lots of types of images and > fiddling > with your DECWindows background. It can also be used for image > editing but > you probably want something more that this for designing panels. > > ftp://ftp.cis.upenn.edu/pub/xv/ > > http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/xv/ > > ftp://ftp.digiater.nl/openvms/decus/vmslt98b/moreau/xv-310a2-vms.zip > > As far as I remember, it's a bit of a chore to build it, however, > there may be > executables available on some of the VMS freeware CDs. Look for one > with PNG > support as this was the last to be added. If you can't find any, I > can send > you one if you are happy enough to trust me. > > Another possibility is to use the SWB web browser to view images but > this is > a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Nov 16 10:27:36 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:27:36 -0800 Subject: Testing bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <20151116162135.E02C818C0F8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151116162135.E02C818C0F8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <564A03F8.8070701@shiresoft.com> On 11/16/15 8:21 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So, I have bought a number of DS8641 bus transceivers from a source in China, > and cognizant of the claims that there are a lot of counterfeits coming from > China, how can I test them to make sure the meet specs? > > I have a QBUS test board which I have constructed (it's basically just a > single read/write register), so I can verify their _basic_ functionality; but > the UNIBUS/QBUS specs give a number of analog qualifications, and it's those > I'd like to check. > > Some of them I can figure out how to test, although a couple of them would > seem to need special test rigs, e.g. input high threshold of 2.5V and low > threshold of 1.4V, but I _think_ I can work out how to test those - a board > with a pot on it, so I can vary the input voltage, and see where the output > switches. (I'm not necessarily going to test every last chip, but I'd like to > do random samples.) > > However, there are others of which I'm not at all clear how to test, e.g. > output high leakage current of 25 uA. How would I test that? (And replies of > the form 'use such and such an approach' probably aren't detailed enough for > me - my analog-fu is pretty weak - so details would be most greatly > appreciated! ;-) A number of data books have circuits that were used to measure the parameters (including rise/fall times) so you might want to look at some of them (substituting values for the 8641 vs the part in the data book). They all look to be about the same as far as testing goes (except for parameters obviously). Just look for parts that are as similar as possible in terms of input/output configurations (ie don't use a test configuration that was spec'd for totem poll outputs vs open collector, etc). TTFN - Guy From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 16 10:32:10 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:32:10 -0800 Subject: Testing bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <20151116162135.E02C818C0F8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151116162135.E02C818C0F8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56EDB509-BCB8-48EB-91BC-7019DD3C5130@nf6x.net> Do you have any sort of precision, regulated, adjustable lab bench power supply that you could use to vary input voltage? If not, using a potentiometer as you mentioned would also work. Also, how many of these did you buy? If it's something like a dozen, manual testing will be practical. If it's something like a hundred, then automating the testing might be a good idea, and a fun project all by itself if that sort of thing interests you. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Nov 16 10:43:10 2015 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:43:10 -0500 Subject: VCF East: April 15-17, 2016 Message-ID: <564A079E.2080706@snarc.net> VCF East XI (yeah, I'm using Roman numerals for now) is April 15-17, 2016, as usual at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey. Friday's schedule will be classes and some kind of software hackathon. Details to be determined. Saturday/Sunday will have morning keynotes followed by the usual fare: exhibit hall(s), consignment, museum tours, food, and so on. Saturday's keynoter is Stewart Chiefet of the old "Computer Chronicles" television show. :) Still working on a keynoter for Sunday. Web site is not yet live. From simski at dds.nl Mon Nov 16 13:24:01 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:24:01 +0100 Subject: Nextstep: Visions in black Message-ID: <564A2D51.4080406@dds.nl> While copying some data from a bunch of Next HD's, i stumbled upon a snd file containing a song written for Steve Jobs, accompanied by guitar and handclaps from several people. Is this a known song? I was unable to find a better version on the web than the 8012hz sample I have here. -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From kurtk7 at visi.com Mon Nov 16 13:52:24 2015 From: kurtk7 at visi.com (Kurt K) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:52:24 -0600 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A12EA83-FF60-4889-BAD2-A4E8ED210FF4@visi.com> Can you post your location to see if in driving distance. > On Nov 16, 2015, at 11:10 AM, "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > > This collection goes back to the first home computers, Sinclair, TRS80 > Model 1 and Model 2, CPM machines, Lobo, Commodore, several "portables" > (suitcase type), PET, one CPM/DOS switchable portable. "Stringy floppy" > (very rare) All are free, but the whole lot goes to ONE person. I want it > gone, not cherry picked. > > My intention was a computer museum, but no longer have the desire. > From kurtk7 at visi.com Mon Nov 16 13:52:24 2015 From: kurtk7 at visi.com (Kurt K) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:52:24 -0600 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A12EA83-FF60-4889-BAD2-A4E8ED210FF4@visi.com> Can you post your location to see if in driving distance. > On Nov 16, 2015, at 11:10 AM, "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > > This collection goes back to the first home computers, Sinclair, TRS80 > Model 1 and Model 2, CPM machines, Lobo, Commodore, several "portables" > (suitcase type), PET, one CPM/DOS switchable portable. "Stringy floppy" > (very rare) All are free, but the whole lot goes to ONE person. I want it > gone, not cherry picked. > > My intention was a computer museum, but no longer have the desire. > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 13:56:58 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:56:58 -0600 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: <3A12EA83-FF60-4889-BAD2-A4E8ED210FF4@visi.com> References: <3A12EA83-FF60-4889-BAD2-A4E8ED210FF4@visi.com> Message-ID: Between the CBM and CPM machines, this lot is exactly the stuff I'm into.. I'd gladly take the whole lot - don't suppose the OP is anywhere near St. Paul / Mpls? On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Kurt K wrote: > Can you post your location to see if in driving distance. > > > On Nov 16, 2015, at 11:10 AM, "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" > wrote: > > > > This collection goes back to the first home computers, Sinclair, TRS80 > > Model 1 and Model 2, CPM machines, Lobo, Commodore, several "portables" > > (suitcase type), PET, one CPM/DOS switchable portable. "Stringy floppy" > > (very rare) All are free, but the whole lot goes to ONE person. I want > it > > gone, not cherry picked. > > > > My intention was a computer museum, but no longer have the desire. > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 13:56:58 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:56:58 -0600 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: <3A12EA83-FF60-4889-BAD2-A4E8ED210FF4@visi.com> References: <3A12EA83-FF60-4889-BAD2-A4E8ED210FF4@visi.com> Message-ID: Between the CBM and CPM machines, this lot is exactly the stuff I'm into.. I'd gladly take the whole lot - don't suppose the OP is anywhere near St. Paul / Mpls? On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Kurt K wrote: > Can you post your location to see if in driving distance. > > > On Nov 16, 2015, at 11:10 AM, "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" > wrote: > > > > This collection goes back to the first home computers, Sinclair, TRS80 > > Model 1 and Model 2, CPM machines, Lobo, Commodore, several "portables" > > (suitcase type), PET, one CPM/DOS switchable portable. "Stringy floppy" > > (very rare) All are free, but the whole lot goes to ONE person. I want > it > > gone, not cherry picked. > > > > My intention was a computer museum, but no longer have the desire. > > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 16 13:58:18 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:58:18 -0800 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: <3A12EA83-FF60-4889-BAD2-A4E8ED210FF4@visi.com> References: <3A12EA83-FF60-4889-BAD2-A4E8ED210FF4@visi.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 16, 2015, at 11:52, Kurt K wrote: > > Can you post your location to see if in driving distance. > >> On Nov 16, 2015, at 11:10 AM, "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: If Jim's ham radio license date is up to date, then he's probably near Corpus Christi, TX. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Nov 16 12:09:30 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 12:09:30 -0600 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151116180930.GA11236@lonesome.com> as always, location is helpful :-) From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Nov 16 13:16:27 2015 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:16:27 -0500 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: <20151116180930.GA11236@lonesome.com> References: <20151116180930.GA11236@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <0fe201d120a3$4aad6250$e00826f0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Mark Linimon wrote: > as always, location is helpful :-) He gave you everything you need to know: W5JAI Registration is online. Bill S. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 17:44:28 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:44:28 -0600 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: <564a5abe.ce896b0a.fe81a.ffffcf45SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <20151116180930.GA11236@lonesome.com> <564a5abe.ce896b0a.fe81a.ffffcf45SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: huh? On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Mark Linimon wrote: > > as always, location is helpful :-) > > He gave you everything you need to know: > > W5JAI > > Registration is online. > > Bill S. > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 16 17:57:29 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 15:57:29 -0800 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: <20151116180930.GA11236@lonesome.com> <564a5abe.ce896b0a.fe81a.ffffcf45SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Only other ham radio operators tend to recognize ham radio callsigns and know how to look them up. > On Nov 16, 2015, at 15:44, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > huh? > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Bill Sudbrink > wrote: > >> Mark Linimon wrote: >>> as always, location is helpful :-) >> >> He gave you everything you need to know: >> >> W5JAI >> >> Registration is online. >> >> Bill S. >> >> From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 16 18:07:13 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:07:13 -0700 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: <20151116180930.GA11236@lonesome.com> <564a5abe.ce896b0a.fe81a.ffffcf45SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <564A6FB1.6070108@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/16/2015 4:57 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Only other ham radio operators tend to recognize ham radio callsigns and know how to look them up. > Get rid of computers ... keep the radios :) From wulfman at wulfman.com Mon Nov 16 18:34:13 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:34:13 -0700 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: <564A6FB1.6070108@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20151116180930.GA11236@lonesome.com> <564a5abe.ce896b0a.fe81a.ffffcf45SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <564A6FB1.6070108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <564A7605.6000207@wulfman.com> With SDR one and the same these days. On 11/16/2015 5:07 PM, ben wrote: > On 11/16/2015 4:57 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> Only other ham radio operators tend to recognize ham radio callsigns >> and know how to look them up. >> > Get rid of computers ... keep the radios :) > > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 20:00:34 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:00:34 -0600 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: <564A7605.6000207@wulfman.com> References: <20151116180930.GA11236@lonesome.com> <564a5abe.ce896b0a.fe81a.ffffcf45SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <564A6FB1.6070108@jetnet.ab.ca> <564A7605.6000207@wulfman.com> Message-ID: Guess you'll have to forgive those of us in the "Classicmp enthusiast" group that don't overlap into the "HAM operator" group. I for one had no idea that a member's location could be pinned-down (to within shipping zones?) using a HAM callsign. Not all of us share the same areas of interest and / or levels of knowledge. Don't make so many assumptions. On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 6:34 PM, wulfman wrote: > With SDR one and the same these days. > > > On 11/16/2015 5:07 PM, ben wrote: > > On 11/16/2015 4:57 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> Only other ham radio operators tend to recognize ham radio callsigns > >> and know how to look them up. > >> > > Get rid of computers ... keep the radios :) > > > > > > > -- > The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for > the use of the named > addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. > Any unauthorized use, > copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is > strictly prohibited by > the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, > please notify the sender > immediately and delete this e-mail. > > From js at cimmeri.com Mon Nov 16 20:17:48 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 21:17:48 -0500 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: <20151116180930.GA11236@lonesome.com> <564a5abe.ce896b0a.fe81a.ffffcf45SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <564A6FB1.6070108@jetnet.ab.ca> <564A7605.6000207@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <564A8E4C.2010203@cimmeri.com> . . / . - - - . . - . . . On 11/16/2015 9:00 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Guess you'll have to forgive those of us in the "Classicmp enthusiast" > group that don't overlap into the "HAM operator" group. > > I for one had no idea that a member's location could be pinned-down (to > within shipping zones?) using a HAM callsign. Not all of us share the same > areas of interest and / or levels of knowledge. > > Don't make so many assumptions. > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 6:34 PM, wulfman wrote: > >> With SDR one and the same these days. >> >> >> On 11/16/2015 5:07 PM, ben wrote: >>> On 11/16/2015 4:57 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>>> Only other ham radio operators tend to recognize ham radio callsigns >>>> and know how to look them up. >>>> >>> From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 22:21:36 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:21:36 -0600 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: <564A8E4C.2010203@cimmeri.com> References: <20151116180930.GA11236@lonesome.com> <564a5abe.ce896b0a.fe81a.ffffcf45SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <564A6FB1.6070108@jetnet.ab.ca> <564A7605.6000207@wulfman.com> <564A8E4C.2010203@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: now ur mocking us none radio peeps i should go take my cert i do tower work allot installing equipment would prolly help me with my job....infact today i installed 3 120degree sectors lol On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 8:17 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > . . / . - - - . . - . . . > > > On 11/16/2015 9:00 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Guess you'll have to forgive those of us in the "Classicmp enthusiast" >> group that don't overlap into the "HAM operator" group. >> >> I for one had no idea that a member's location could be pinned-down (to >> within shipping zones?) using a HAM callsign. Not all of us share the same >> areas of interest and / or levels of knowledge. >> >> Don't make so many assumptions. >> >> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 6:34 PM, wulfman wrote: >> >> With SDR one and the same these days. >>> >>> >>> On 11/16/2015 5:07 PM, ben wrote: >>> >>>> On 11/16/2015 4:57 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>>> >>>>> Only other ham radio operators tend to recognize ham radio callsigns >>>>> and know how to look them up. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > From kurtk7 at visi.com Mon Nov 16 22:22:58 2015 From: kurtk7 at visi.com (Kurt K) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:22:58 -0600 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: <20151116180930.GA11236@lonesome.com> <564a5abe.ce896b0a.fe81a.ffffcf45SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <564A6FB1.6070108@jetnet.ab.ca> <564A7605.6000207@wulfman.com> <564A8E4C.2010203@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <396B8A46-F1E9-46DD-83C3-B0BEE9990CDF@visi.com> We did get a location and a good thread conversation. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 16, 2015, at 10:21 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > now ur mocking us none radio peeps > i should go take my cert i do tower work allot installing equipment would > prolly help me with my job....infact today i installed 3 120degree sectors > lol > >> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 8:17 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >> >> . . / . - - - . . - . . . >> >> >>> On 11/16/2015 9:00 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >>> >>> Guess you'll have to forgive those of us in the "Classicmp enthusiast" >>> group that don't overlap into the "HAM operator" group. >>> >>> I for one had no idea that a member's location could be pinned-down (to >>> within shipping zones?) using a HAM callsign. Not all of us share the same >>> areas of interest and / or levels of knowledge. >>> >>> Don't make so many assumptions. >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 6:34 PM, wulfman wrote: >>> >>> With SDR one and the same these days. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 11/16/2015 5:07 PM, ben wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/16/2015 4:57 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Only other ham radio operators tend to recognize ham radio callsigns >>>>>> and know how to look them up. > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Nov 16 22:28:05 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 23:28:05 -0500 Subject: Giving away collection of computers Message-ID: <8bbdb.2c60480b.437c06d5@aol.com> it cant! the ham can move and keep the old call so all bets for location are off! ----Ed# In a message dated 11/16/2015 9:23:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, kurtk7 at visi.com writes: We did get a location and a good thread conversation. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 16, 2015, at 10:21 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > now ur mocking us none radio peeps > i should go take my cert i do tower work allot installing equipment would > prolly help me with my job....infact today i installed 3 120degree sectors > lol > >> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 8:17 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >> >> . . / . - - - . . - . . . >> >> >>> On 11/16/2015 9:00 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >>> >>> Guess you'll have to forgive those of us in the "Classicmp enthusiast" >>> group that don't overlap into the "HAM operator" group. >>> >>> I for one had no idea that a member's location could be pinned-down (to >>> within shipping zones?) using a HAM callsign. Not all of us share the same >>> areas of interest and / or levels of knowledge. >>> >>> Don't make so many assumptions. >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 6:34 PM, wulfman wrote: >>> >>> With SDR one and the same these days. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 11/16/2015 5:07 PM, ben wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/16/2015 4:57 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Only other ham radio operators tend to recognize ham radio callsigns >>>>>> and know how to look them up. > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 22:55:35 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:55:35 -0600 Subject: kinda odd LSI-11 machine? In-Reply-To: <675B8EA0-F4DF-4E11-84E3-F96024EB5C2F@gmail.com> References: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> <675B8EA0-F4DF-4E11-84E3-F96024EB5C2F@gmail.com> Message-ID: link doesnt work On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Joseph Lang wrote: > Internal looks home brew. The case used to be something else. Don't know > what. > > Joe > > > On Nov 14, 2015, at 9:42 PM, "Jay West" wrote: > > > > Never saw one like this, but the chassis/cabinet doesn't look really > > homebrew to me.... > > > > https://post.craigslist.org/k/drQqW-KK5RG4d-7uD34-Xw/vi2lh?s=preview > > > > J > > > > > From supervinx at libero.it Tue Nov 17 01:47:18 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:47:18 +0100 Subject: QIC capstan Message-ID: <1447746438.3156.5.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> I got an HP 9000/340 with a 9144 QIC unit. The QIC capstan has softened without losing its shape, so I measured it with a gauge. How can I replace it? Thanks -- Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) --==ooOoo==-- My computer collection: http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum --==ooOoo==-- You can reach me at: www.supervinx.com www.facebook.com/supervinx http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx http://www.myspace.com/supervinx From microtechdart at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 01:51:01 2015 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:51:01 -0600 Subject: QIC capstan In-Reply-To: <1447746438.3156.5.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <1447746438.3156.5.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: http://terrysrubberrollers.com/ Terry has rebuilt about a dozen rollers for me over the past 2 years. You'll need to remove the roller and send it in to him with a money order (he doesn't take checks or credit cards), but he'll do a fantastic job for about $40-50 per roller. Not cheap, but worth it if you really want to restore it so it works. On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 1:47 AM, supervinx wrote: > I got an HP 9000/340 with a 9144 QIC unit. > The QIC capstan has softened without losing its shape, so I measured it > with a gauge. > How can I replace it? > > Thanks > -- > Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) > > --==ooOoo==-- > My computer collection: > http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum > > --==ooOoo==-- > You can reach me at: > www.supervinx.com > www.facebook.com/supervinx > http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx > http://www.myspace.com/supervinx > > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From microtechdart at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 01:55:22 2015 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:55:22 -0600 Subject: RevEng CRC model on really really long messages of 4096 bytes Message-ID: I've encountered a new challenge with the CRC now, it's from the data blocks written by the Kennedy 6450/6455 Tape Drive. The below message is to the creator of CRC_RevEng about this topic, but since several here have been so helpful to me on understanding CRCs (and Chuck, you referred me to CRC_RevEng), I thought I would put this out to this group as well. Again, I really appreciate the feedback! Thanks, -AJ On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Convergent MightyFrame < mightyframect at gmail.com> wrote: > Greg, > > I am extremely impressed by the CRC_RevEng program you wrote. It is quite > amazing. I have a unique problem using it, and I was hoping you could help. > > Instead of trying to articulate all of the complexities in an email, I > recorded a YouTube video explaining my dilemma and demonstrating the > result. Please watch that here: > > https://youtu.be/nH-tfbvXYrI > > Please forgive me if I ramble on in the video, but I hope it effectively > describes the problem, and how I arrived at it. > > The web pages I reference in the video is my own, at: > > http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/2015/09/kennedy-6450-tape-drive-data-format.html#CRC > and > > http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html#CRC > > The long-data-block files I use as demonstration in the video are attached. > > I would be very appreciative if you could point me toward any available > work-arounds to this issue. > > -- > Thanks! > -AJ Palmgren > 515.460.6393 > http://MightyFrame.com > http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com > > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 17 02:34:52 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:34:52 +0000 Subject: Todays Topic from Panelman Message-ID: <564AE6AC.1010200@btinternet.com> Hi Guys I think we are all only too well aware of the difficulty of getting parts for our old systems. This the more so for items that can been seen. Having got at least a half reasonable replacement front panel process my thoughts turned to toggle switches. In the case of PDP-11 this is already being addressed by another list member. So to PDP-8's. There's two parts to a PDP-8 toggle. The slide switch and the lever. The leaver is injection molded in a two part mold. The join line can clearly be seen. Clearly a mold is required to produce one or more at a time. These used to be very expensive but with modern CNC machines it might be worth finding out. In addition we now have 3D printing available To aid this have I have produced a drawing of the switch lever with views from three angles. From here it should be possible to: 1. Convert to 3D for 3D printing tests 2. Produce a drawing of the two part mold tool. Extruded PVC I'm familiar with having worked in the cable industry as a student. ABS which is what I think the leaver may be made of may be different (hot to cold shrinkage for example) Comments from list members with experience in the above areas would be of interest to us all. Now to the slide switches themselves. They are mounted by the screw hole lugs having been slid into a groove in two aluminum bars which in turn are attached to the PCB by pillars and screws. There are six connection pins on the bottom of each switch that go into holes in the PCB. (not all used) Switch replacement would be easy and a complete switch and lever sub module not too difficult. I hear a voice from the distant past saying 'Micro switches' Thats all for to-day Rod From jws at jwsss.com Tue Nov 17 06:52:13 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 04:52:13 -0800 Subject: kinda odd LSI-11 machine? In-Reply-To: References: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> <675B8EA0-F4DF-4E11-84E3-F96024EB5C2F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <564B22FD.9010800@jwsss.com> the "post" part and preview seems to be an internal link to someone who was posting on craigslist. the link resolved to south florida, but when I go to that region and search the for sale search box doesn't work. Makes craigslist really confused. I'm interested in lsi-11 stuff, would love to see it. Adrian is out of the US, I'm in southern, california, not sure what magic Craigslist DNS could be doing to the two of use as well with the subdomain name. thanks jim On 11/16/2015 8:55 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > link doesnt work > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Joseph Lang > wrote: > >> Internal looks home brew. The case used to be something else. Don't know >> what. >> >> Joe >> >>> On Nov 14, 2015, at 9:42 PM, "Jay West" wrote: >>> >>> Never saw one like this, but the chassis/cabinet doesn't look really >>> homebrew to me.... >>> >>> https://post.craigslist.org/k/drQqW-KK5RG4d-7uD34-Xw/vi2lh?s=preview >>> >>> J >>> >>> > From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Nov 17 07:41:37 2015 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:41:37 +0000 Subject: kinda odd LSI-11 machine? In-Reply-To: <564B22FD.9010800@jwsss.com> References: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> <675B8EA0-F4DF-4E11-84E3-F96024EB5C2F@gmail.com> , <564B22FD.9010800@jwsss.com> Message-ID: How about: http://buffalo.craigslist.org/sys/5318182022.html From ramdyne at gmx.net Tue Nov 17 07:42:28 2015 From: ramdyne at gmx.net (Andreas Sikkema) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:42:28 +0100 Subject: RevEng CRC model on really really long messages of 4096 bytes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564B2EC4.7060805@gmx.net> AJ Are you sure you're not running into the maximum length of a command line? I haven't used Windows in a very long time, so I am not sure what the current maximum is, but with > 16k characters I would assume it is at least an option. -- Andreas From jason at textfiles.com Tue Nov 17 08:18:14 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:18:14 +0100 Subject: VCF East: April 15-17, 2016 In-Reply-To: <564A079E.2080706@snarc.net> References: <564A079E.2080706@snarc.net> Message-ID: Hurrah for pre-planning! Thanks for the lead time. On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > VCF East XI (yeah, I'm using Roman numerals for now) is April 15-17, 2016, > as usual at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey. > > Friday's schedule will be classes and some kind of software hackathon. > Details to be determined. > > Saturday/Sunday will have morning keynotes followed by the usual fare: > exhibit hall(s), consignment, museum tours, food, and so on. > > Saturday's keynoter is Stewart Chiefet of the old "Computer Chronicles" > television show. :) > > Still working on a keynoter for Sunday. > > Web site is not yet live. > From ethan at 757.org Tue Nov 17 09:54:06 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:54:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? Message-ID: Hello, By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add [cctalk] or [cc] or [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? Not looking to filter, just not looking to delete messages. -- Ethan O'Toole From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Nov 17 10:24:22 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:24:22 -0800 Subject: QIC capstan In-Reply-To: References: <1447746438.3156.5.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: <011201d12154$6bc028e0$43407aa0$@net> > Terry has rebuilt about a dozen rollers for me over the past 2 years. > You'll need to remove the roller and send it in to him with a money > order (he doesn't take checks or credit cards), but he'll do a > fantastic job for about $40-50 per roller. Just wondering what kind of material he uses to rebuild the roller and what sort of warranty does he provide (if any?). -Ali From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 17 10:39:56 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:39:56 -0500 Subject: kinda odd LSI-11 machine? In-Reply-To: References: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> <675B8EA0-F4DF-4E11-84E3-F96024EB5C2F@gmail.com> <564B22FD.9010800@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <8F8575B2-5ED7-431D-B5A4-EBA8C5AD2E00@comcast.net> > On Nov 17, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > How about: > > http://buffalo.craigslist.org/sys/5318182022.html Weird! I wonder if it's a Heathkit (H-11) in a homemade enclosure. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 10:43:47 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:43:47 -0500 Subject: kinda odd LSI-11 machine? In-Reply-To: <8F8575B2-5ED7-431D-B5A4-EBA8C5AD2E00@comcast.net> References: <000001d11f4f$49e5cf10$ddb16d30$@classiccmp.org> <675B8EA0-F4DF-4E11-84E3-F96024EB5C2F@gmail.com> <564B22FD.9010800@jwsss.com> <8F8575B2-5ED7-431D-B5A4-EBA8C5AD2E00@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 17, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Kelly Leavitt wrote: >> >> How about: >> >> http://buffalo.craigslist.org/sys/5318182022.html > > Weird! I wonder if it's a Heathkit (H-11) in a homemade enclosure. The H-11 has a Heath backplane PCB and non-DEC backplane connectors. This looks to me like DEC backplane frames in a homemade enclosure. -ethan From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Nov 17 11:02:16 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:02:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <241820156.5080007.1447779736367.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> To add to that, will people please stop using BCC: for the classicCMP address. From a13stesk at student.his.se Tue Nov 17 11:18:18 2015 From: a13stesk at student.his.se (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:18:18 +0100 Subject: ETA-auktion Message-ID: <1447780698.3024.2.camel@student.his.se> This year's ETA-auction i gothenburg at 5 Dec. SEE?http://auktion.eta.chalmers.se/ Multiple Tek Scopes and a HP 16500C. AT least one VT101 and other misc (including multiple sun ultras) and a bunch of routers/vpn gateways and so. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 17 12:06:06 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:06:06 -0800 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> On 11/17/15 7:54 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Hello, > > By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add [cctalk] or [cc] or [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? If you do this, please do the same for cctech, and make sure messages go out from the correct source on cross-posted messages (ie. "[cctalk] foo" on cctech), so I can simplify my dups filters. From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 17 12:16:12 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:16:12 -0800 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: This would be helpful, and consistent with many other mailing lists. I use filters to direct traffic from my many mailing list subscriptions into appropriate sub-folders outside my main inbox. I filter this list based on addressing, but sorting based on a consistent tag in the subject line may be more reliable. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 17 12:30:52 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:30:52 -0600 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> On 11/17/2015 12:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/17/15 7:54 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> Hello, >> >> By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add >> [cctalk] or [cc] or [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? > > If you do this, please do the same for cctech, and make sure messages go > out from the correct source on cross-posted messages > (ie. "[cctalk] foo" on cctech), so I can simplify my dups filters. > > > Amen to that, brother. The duplicates drive me nuts. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Tue Nov 17 12:32:13 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:32:13 +0100 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20151117193213.Horde.9z8bWgIBxSO4Xas-Yd025Fm@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi Mark, "Mark J. Blair" wrote: > This would be helpful, and consistent with many other mailing lists. > I use filters to direct traffic from my many mailing list > subscriptions into appropriate sub-folders outside my main inbox. I > filter this list based on addressing, but sorting based on a > consistent tag in the subject line may be more reliable. There is one reliable header: List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Just use that and you'll be fine... No Subject prefixing needed at all. I use it for grouping mails from different lists in different folders and it works 100%. Oliver From isking at uw.edu Tue Nov 17 12:34:07 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:34:07 -0800 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: <8bbdb.2c60480b.437c06d5@aol.com> References: <8bbdb.2c60480b.437c06d5@aol.com> Message-ID: The FCC's ULS lookup gives you the licensee's address, which we are supposed to keep current. -- K7PDP On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 8:28 PM, wrote: > it cant! the ham can move and keep the old call so all bets for > location are off! ----Ed# > > > In a message dated 11/16/2015 9:23:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > kurtk7 at visi.com writes: > > We did get a location and a good thread conversation. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 16, 2015, at 10:21 PM, Adrian Stoness > wrote: > > > > now ur mocking us none radio peeps > > i should go take my cert i do tower work allot installing equipment > would > > prolly help me with my job....infact today i installed 3 120degree > sectors > > lol > > > >> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 8:17 PM, js at cimmeri.com > wrote: > >> > >> > >> . . / . - - - . . - . . . > >> > >> > >>> On 11/16/2015 9:00 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >>> > >>> Guess you'll have to forgive those of us in the "Classicmp > enthusiast" > >>> group that don't overlap into the "HAM operator" group. > >>> > >>> I for one had no idea that a member's location could be pinned-down > (to > >>> within shipping zones?) using a HAM callsign. Not all of us share the > same > >>> areas of interest and / or levels of knowledge. > >>> > >>> Don't make so many assumptions. > >>> > >>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 6:34 PM, wulfman > wrote: > >>> > >>> With SDR one and the same these days. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 11/16/2015 5:07 PM, ben wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 11/16/2015 4:57 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Only other ham radio operators tend to recognize ham radio > callsigns > >>>>>> and know how to look them up. > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 17 12:38:16 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:38:16 -0600 Subject: Todays Topic from Panelman In-Reply-To: <564AE6AC.1010200@btinternet.com> References: <564AE6AC.1010200@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <564B7418.1070001@charter.net> On 11/17/2015 2:34 AM, rod wrote: > > Now to the slide switches themselves. > > They are mounted by the screw hole lugs having been slid into a groove > in two aluminum bars which in turn are attached to the PCB by pillars > and screws. > There are six connection pins on the bottom of each switch that go into > holes in the PCB. (not all used) Switch replacement would be easy and a > complete switch and lever sub module not too difficult. I hear a voice > from the distant past saying 'Micro switches' > > Thats all for to-day > > Rod > The ones I have seen (on my PDP-8/L and PDP-12) are simple stock old-school slide switches (definitely not Micro-Switch switches), that typically look like this one: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/GF-1126-1110/SW105-ND/948 (I did *not* check dimensions to see if this particular one is right or not - there were standard size and miniature versions. But the photo looks about right). JRU From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 17 12:43:23 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:43:23 +0000 Subject: QIC capstan In-Reply-To: References: <1447746438.3156.5.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>, Message-ID: > > http://terrysrubberrollers.com/ > > Terry has rebuilt about a dozen rollers for me over the past 2 years. > You'll need to remove the roller and send it in to him with a money order > (he doesn't take checks or credit cards), but he'll do a fantastic job for > about $40-50 per roller. Any suggestions for those of us who would rather do it ourselves? In my case I have 6 or 7 HP tape drives (an assortment of 9142's, 9144's and a 9145) and 4 TU58 drives to do (at least). I suspect I could do it a lot cheaper than around $500 and I don't want to send irreplaceable (and in the case of HP drives, delicate (as it includes the tacho disk) parts around the world, The important one for me at the moment is the TU58. I have some suitable aluminium alloy rod to make a new hub if need be, I've measured up the old roller (the important dimension is the outside diameter -- 5/8") [1]. Any suggestions as to what to use as a 'tyre' ? [1] Amusingly for a DEC machine, the motor spindle is 3mm diameter, not an imperial size. -tony From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 13:17:39 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:17:39 -0800 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: <8bbdb.2c60480b.437c06d5@aol.com> Message-ID: > Ian S. King wrote: "... -- K7PDP" Show-off ;) On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > The FCC's ULS lookup gives you the licensee's address, which we are > supposed to keep current. -- K7PDP > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 8:28 PM, wrote: > > > it cant! the ham can move and keep the old call so all bets for > > location are off! ----Ed# > > > > > > In a message dated 11/16/2015 9:23:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > > kurtk7 at visi.com writes: > > > > We did get a location and a good thread conversation. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Nov 16, 2015, at 10:21 PM, Adrian Stoness > > wrote: > > > > > > now ur mocking us none radio peeps > > > i should go take my cert i do tower work allot installing equipment > > would > > > prolly help me with my job....infact today i installed 3 120degree > > sectors > > > lol > > > > > >> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 8:17 PM, js at cimmeri.com > > wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> . . / . - - - . . - . . . > > >> > > >> > > >>> On 11/16/2015 9:00 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Guess you'll have to forgive those of us in the "Classicmp > > enthusiast" > > >>> group that don't overlap into the "HAM operator" group. > > >>> > > >>> I for one had no idea that a member's location could be pinned-down > > (to > > >>> within shipping zones?) using a HAM callsign. Not all of us share > the > > same > > >>> areas of interest and / or levels of knowledge. > > >>> > > >>> Don't make so many assumptions. > > >>> > > >>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 6:34 PM, wulfman > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> With SDR one and the same these days. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> On 11/16/2015 5:07 PM, ben wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> On 11/16/2015 4:57 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Only other ham radio operators tend to recognize ham radio > > callsigns > > >>>>>> and know how to look them up. > > > > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 13:46:36 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:46:36 -0600 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 11/17/2015 12:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/17/15 7:54 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add > >> [cctalk] or [cc] or [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? > > > > If you do this, please do the same for cctech, and make sure messages go > > out from the correct source on cross-posted messages > > (ie. "[cctalk] foo" on cctech), so I can simplify my dups filters. > > > > > > > > Amen to that, brother. The duplicates drive me nuts. > What gets duplicated? Are you subscribed to both -talk and -tech at one time? -- Eric Christopherson From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 17 13:54:27 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:54:27 -0800 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> Message-ID: <564B85F3.4090903@bitsavers.org> On 11/17/15 11:46 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > What gets duplicated? Are you subscribed to both -talk and -tech at one > time? > Yes, they were two separate lists at one point, then someone decided to start forwarding messages between the two, and other people started posting replies to the wrong list. All of the replies to the post about the collection being given away was from cctalk, but the actual message was posted on cctech. You can't effectively filter out the crap from the other list because the headers being sent through aren't always right. I lost the original collection msg because my filter thought it had been sent from cctalk and forwarded to cctech. There was a discussion about getting rid of one or the other list. I wish someone would just DO IT. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 17 14:02:05 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:02:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Mark J. Blair wrote: > This would be helpful, and consistent with many other mailing lists. I > use filters to direct traffic from my many mailing list subscriptions > into appropriate sub-folders outside my main inbox. I filter this list > based on addressing, but sorting based on a consistent tag in the > subject line may be more reliable. Periodically, this is suggested. And, so far previously, rejected. A few folk oppose it because THEY don't need it because THEIR mail programs are successfully sorting by the header line of: "List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" " A few oppose it because it will add another half a dozen to a dozen characters to already growing subject lines, and people might eventually have to start trimming some of the RE: Re: RE: from the subject line. I would find it convenient to have a visual indication "[CC]" of which messages are from the list[s] V which are similar subject lines from other sources. But, I can live with it either way, so it becomes an issue to be decided by who feels strongest about their needs. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 17 14:03:47 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 20:03:47 +0000 Subject: Todays Topic from Panelman In-Reply-To: <564B7418.1070001@charter.net> References: <564AE6AC.1010200@btinternet.com> <564B7418.1070001@charter.net> Message-ID: <564B8823.5010607@btinternet.com> Thanks yes they do look similar. I'll download the data sheet. What I forgot to explain was the problem is not the switch itself but the additional part on top into which the two pivot pins locate. My policy is to produce form factor replacements. In this case the lever arm. If they can then be incorporated into other assemblies then good. Here the lever rotates about a pivot point formed by the two sides of the additional structure on top. A missing segment in the lower semi-circular part of the lever engages with the slide switch and moves it. So there being no known source of the switch with the extra part on top and not wanting to change the lever. What do we do? It would not have been feasible to make the top part and attach it, as its spring steel. Its horrible stuff to work with. Pretty much you are limited to die stamping it in a heavy press. They would have punched the shape and the holes out with a hardened die and then before or after spot welding it to an empty switch body hit it again with a folding die to bring the sides up. That would be too expensive to get set up. So I am looking at alternatives. Rod On 17/11/15 18:38, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 11/17/2015 2:34 AM, rod wrote: >> Now to the slide switches themselves. >> >> They are mounted by the screw hole lugs having been slid into a groove >> in two aluminum bars which in turn are attached to the PCB by pillars >> and screws. >> There are six connection pins on the bottom of each switch that go into >> holes in the PCB. (not all used) Switch replacement would be easy and a >> complete switch and lever sub module not too difficult. I hear a voice >> from the distant past saying 'Micro switches' >> >> Thats all for to-day >> >> Rod >> > The ones I have seen (on my PDP-8/L and PDP-12) are simple stock > old-school slide switches (definitely not Micro-Switch switches), that > typically look like this one: > > http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/GF-1126-1110/SW105-ND/948 > > (I did *not* check dimensions to see if this particular one is right or > not - there were standard size and miniature versions. But the photo > looks about right). > > JRU > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 17 14:13:42 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:13:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: <8bbdb.2c60480b.437c06d5@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Ian S. King wrote: > The FCC's ULS lookup gives you the licensee's address, which we are > supposed to keep current. -- K7PDP FCC license does give the location, as does lattitude and longitude, but when somebody is seeking people who would want to partake of their collection give-away, would it be more convenient for potential takers, to display location in city/state? Or is using an indirect expression of location that will require a lookup intended as a preliminary filter? From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 14:23:58 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 21:23:58 +0100 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: <8bbdb.2c60480b.437c06d5@aol.com> Message-ID: > > Ian S. King wrote: "... -- K7PDP" > Show-off ;) > On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > > The FCC's ULS lookup gives you the licensee's address, which we are > > supposed to keep current. -- K7PDP Yes, I am proud of my full license call PA8PDP ;-) I passed the last morse code exam held by the government. - Henk From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Nov 17 14:24:48 2015 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:24:48 -0700 Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re:_Could_someone_make_the_list_do_th?= =?US-ASCII?Q?e_[cctalk]_thing_in_the_subject=0D__line=3F?= Message-ID: Please add the cc. To subj line Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Fred Cisin Date: 11/17/2015 13:02 (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Mark J. Blair wrote: > This would be helpful, and consistent with many other mailing lists. I > use filters to direct traffic from my many mailing list subscriptions > into appropriate sub-folders outside my main inbox. I filter this list > based on addressing, but sorting based on a consistent tag in the > subject line may be more reliable. Periodically, this is suggested.? And, so far previously, rejected. A few folk oppose it because THEY don't need it because THEIR mail programs are successfully sorting by the header line of: "List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ? " A few oppose it because it will add another half a dozen to a dozen characters to already growing subject lines, and people might eventually have to start trimming some of the RE: Re: RE: from the subject line. I would find it convenient to have a visual indication "[CC]" of which messages are from the list[s] V which are similar subject lines from other sources. But, I can live with it either way, so it becomes an issue to be decided by who feels strongest about their needs. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred???? cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 17 14:30:44 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:30:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: <8bbdb.2c60480b.437c06d5@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Ian Finder wrote: >> Ian S. King wrote: "... -- K7PDP" > > Show-off ;) > I'll see that K7PDP and raise you an N7MOS. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 17 14:32:30 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:32:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <564B85F3.4090903@bitsavers.org> References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> <564B85F3.4090903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Al Kossow wrote: > Yes, they were two separate lists at one point, then someone decided to > start forwarding messages between the two, and other people started > posting replies to the wrong list. All of the replies to the post about > the collection being given away was from cctalk, but the actual message > was posted on cctech. You can't effectively filter out the crap from the > other list because the headers being sent through aren't always right. I > lost the original collection msg because my filter thought it had been > sent from cctalk and forwarded to cctech. > There was a discussion about getting rid of one or the other list. > I wish someone would just DO IT. If I recall correctly (unrefreshed dynamic wetware RAM), it was not two separate lists. CCTECH was a subset of CCTALK. CCTECH was to be ON-topic ONLY, with CCTALK quite a bit looser, to be able to devolve into determining location from ham radio callsigns, etc. Everything posted to CCTECH was echoed on CCTALK. A participant needed only to subscribe to one list, depending on how tolerant they wanted to be about off-topic tangents. Then there was a horrible crash. It was neither Y2K, nor winter solctice 2012, but the entire universe came to an end, and there was NO list traffic at all! Heroic efforts were made, and the list[s] were brought back to life! But nobody could manage to successfully replicate the previous configuration, and all the king's horsemen and all the king's men could not put it back together again. Posts to CCTECH did get forwarded to CCTALK, and posts to CCTALK that were deemed to be ON-topic did get forwarded to CCTECH, and those foolish enough to be subscribed to both lists did get two copies. But, then the posts to CCTALK that were deemed worthy to be copied by CCTECH also got automagically forwarded back to CCTALK. When people posted to both lists, or replied to a post to both lists, or didn't pay attention to what they were doing, there were duplicates, and duplicates of duplicates, and sometimes duplicates of duplicates of duplicates. The list management have strived valiantly to repair the system, and have gotten pretty close, but it may never be quite as it was in the good ol' days.. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 17 14:40:53 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:40:53 -0600 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <004201d12178$409b3280$c1d19780$@classiccmp.org> Ah, one of the top ten topics that keeps resurfacing periodically. I initially suggested adding the list name to the subject, and the strong sentiment from the group was not to add it. The pros and cons seem to be a bit of a religious war. And from time to time someone (re)suggests this and the war rages again for a while ;) Yes, the two lists will be rejoined as one list. I haven't found a roundtuit yet. J From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Nov 17 15:25:25 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:25:25 +0100 Subject: ETA-auktion In-Reply-To: <1447780698.3024.2.camel@student.his.se> References: <1447780698.3024.2.camel@student.his.se> Message-ID: <20151117212525.GA15798@Update.UU.SE> Will you attend? I'm going. /P On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 06:18:18PM +0100, Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) wrote: > This year's ETA-auction i gothenburg at 5 Dec. > > SEE?http://auktion.eta.chalmers.se/ > > Multiple Tek Scopes and a HP 16500C. > > AT least one VT101 and other misc (including multiple sun ultras) and a > bunch of routers/vpn gateways and so. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 15:34:41 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:34:41 -0600 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <004201d12178$409b3280$c1d19780$@classiccmp.org> References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> <004201d12178$409b3280$c1d19780$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <564B9D71.6000804@gmail.com> On 11/17/2015 02:40 PM, Jay West wrote: > Yes, the two lists will be rejoined as one list. I haven't found a roundtuit > yet. Combine the lists, then split them, one with prefixed subject lines and one without ;-) From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Nov 17 15:37:10 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:37:10 -0500 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? Message-ID: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> COMBINE THEM THEN JUST ADD TWO LETTERS AND A DASH AS THUS CC- In a message dated 11/17/2015 1:41:03 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: Ah, one of the top ten topics that keeps resurfacing periodically. I initially suggested adding the list name to the subject, and the strong sentiment from the group was not to add it. The pros and cons seem to be a bit of a religious war. And from time to time someone (re)suggests this and the war rages again for a while ;) Yes, the two lists will be rejoined as one list. I haven't found a roundtuit yet. J From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Nov 17 15:59:04 2015 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:59:04 +0100 Subject: ETA-auktion In-Reply-To: <20151117212525.GA15798@Update.UU.SE> References: <1447780698.3024.2.camel@student.his.se> <20151117212525.GA15798@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <1447797544.3024.4.camel@agj.net> tis 2015-11-17 klockan 22:25 +0100 skrev Pontus Pihlgren: > Will you attend? I'm going. > > /P > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 06:18:18PM +0100, Stefan Skoglund (lokal > anv?ndare) wrote: > > This year's ETA-auction i gothenburg at 5 Dec. > > > > SEE?http://auktion.eta.chalmers.se/ > > > > Multiple Tek Scopes and a HP 16500C. > > > > AT least one VT101 and other misc (including multiple sun ultras) > > and a > > bunch of routers/vpn gateways and so. Trouble... i do have another appointment in Mariestad that day...? I will have to choose. Always multiple incompatible possibilities that time of year... From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 17 16:55:37 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:55:37 -0600 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> References: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> Message-ID: <000301d1218b$13b75dd0$3b261970$@classiccmp.org> Ed# wrote... COMBINE THEM THEN JUST ADD TWO LETTERS AND A DASH AS THUS CC- No. From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 17:22:47 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:22:47 -0600 Subject: Giving away collection of computers In-Reply-To: References: <8bbdb.2c60480b.437c06d5@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 2:30 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Ian Finder wrote: > > Ian S. King wrote: "... -- K7PDP" >>> >> >> Show-off ;) >> >> I'll see that K7PDP and raise you an N7MOS. :D W4GNU here...yeah, not as cool, I know. :) 73, Kyle From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Nov 17 17:29:23 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:29:23 -0500 Subject: Giving away collection of computers Message-ID: <136bbf.52fa297f.437d1253@aol.com> ED# IS KF7RWW AT SMECC In a message dated 11/17/2015 4:22:54 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, kylevowen at gmail.com writes: On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 2:30 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Ian Finder wrote: > > Ian S. King wrote: "... -- K7PDP" >>> >> >> Show-off ;) >> >> I'll see that K7PDP and raise you an N7MOS. :D W4GNU here...yeah, not as cool, I know. :) 73, Kyle From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Nov 17 18:13:12 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 00:13:12 +0000 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> References: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> Message-ID: <564BC298.2080700@dunnington.plus.com> On 17/11/2015 21:37, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > COMBINE THEM THEN JUST ADD TWO LETTERS AND A DASH AS THUS > CC- Please not. That could so easily be confused with other things. If you must add a prefix -- and my strong preference is not to -- then follow the convention of square brackets. -- Pete From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Nov 17 18:12:25 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 00:12:25 +0000 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> <564B85F3.4090903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <564BC269.600@dunnington.plus.com> On 17/11/2015 20:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Al Kossow wrote: >> Yes, they were two separate lists at one point, then someone decided >> to start forwarding messages between the two I don't think so. I was one of the first few dozen subscribers and my recollection matches Fred's: > If I recall correctly (unrefreshed dynamic wetware RAM), it was not two > separate lists. CCTECH was a subset of CCTALK. CCTECH was to be > ON-topic ONLY, with CCTALK quite a bit looser, to be able to devolve > into determining location from ham radio callsigns, etc. Everything > posted to CCTECH was echoed on CCTALK. A participant needed only to > subscribe to one list, depending on how tolerant they wanted to be about > off-topic tangents. At the risk of resurrecting yet another old topic, do we really need both lists? (Sorry, Jay, I know you already put a lot of effort in and don't have time for this :-)) -- Pete From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 17 18:32:11 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:32:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <564BC269.600@dunnington.plus.com> References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> <564B85F3.4090903@bitsavers.org> <564BC269.600@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Nov 2015, Pete Turnbull wrote: > At the risk of resurrecting yet another old topic, do we really need both > lists? I think so. For example, "Re: Giving away collection of computers" has turned into discussion and meetings of hams. That would defintitely not belong on CCTECH, but seems to be a reasonable tangent for CCTALK. Besides guns, cars, etc., CCTALK has quite a few discussions that are not really ON-topic, but do seem to involve a fair number of overlaps in interests between the folk here. While we don't want to be a support forum for current hardware, there would seem to be a lot of subjects for which it would be difficult to be sure about where the line falls as to being on-topic. The presence of CCTALK reduces the need for rigidity in that enforcement. But, there are other folk who would prefer a very rigid enforcement. > (Sorry, Jay, I know you already put a lot of effort in and don't have time > for this :-)) Could we just agree to let Jay make the decisions on such trivia? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 17 18:45:05 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:45:05 -0800 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91E193AA-2DB3-4958-A582-6921F314DD56@aracnet.com> > On Nov 17, 2015, at 7:54 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > Hello, > > By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add [cctalk] or [cc] or [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? Not looking to filter, just not looking to delete messages. > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > Better yet, leave it alone. The correct solution is for people to filter their email. It?s better to have more characters that actually mean something show up in the subject line. Zane From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 18:54:27 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:54:27 -0600 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <564B85F3.4090903@bitsavers.org> References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> <564B85F3.4090903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20151118005427.GA10191@gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/17/15 11:46 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > >What gets duplicated? Are you subscribed to both -talk and -tech at one > >time? > > > > Yes, they were two separate lists at one point, then someone decided to start > forwarding messages between the two, and other people started posting replies > to the wrong list. All of the replies to the post about the collection being > given away was from cctalk, but the actual message was posted on cctech. You > can't effectively filter out the crap from the other list because the headers > being sent through aren't always right. I lost the original collection msg > because my filter thought it had been sent from cctalk and forwarded to cctech. Oh, OK. I know I didn't get the original offer email; but I'm actually on cctalk. I thought that would get me all the messages, but I guess not. > > There was a discussion about getting rid of one or the other list. > I wish someone would just DO IT. > > > -- Eric Christopherson From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Nov 17 18:48:01 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 00:48:01 +0000 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> <564B85F3.4090903@bitsavers.org> <564BC269.600@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <564BCAC1.3080006@dunnington.plus.com> On 18/11/2015 00:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 18 Nov 2015, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> (Sorry, Jay, I know you already put a lot of effort in and don't have >> time for this :-)) > Could we just agree to let Jay make the decisions on such trivia? Yes :-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 17 19:06:40 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 20:06:40 -0500 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564BCF20.4090701@sbcglobal.net> On 11/17/2015 10:54 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Hello, > > By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add > [cctalk] or [cc] or [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? Not > looking to filter, just not looking to delete messages. > > This has been discussed _too_ many times... Please don't bring it up again.... Just setup a filter to shuffle CC stuff to it's own folder, then nuke it from there... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 17 19:17:37 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 20:17:37 -0500 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> <564B85F3.4090903@bitsavers.org> <564BC269.600@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <564BD1B1.2050001@sbcglobal.net> On 11/17/2015 07:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 18 Nov 2015, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> At the risk of resurrecting yet another old topic, do we really need >> both lists? > > I think so. > > For example, > "Re: Giving away collection of computers" > has turned into discussion and meetings of hams. That would defintitely > not belong on CCTECH, but seems to be a reasonable tangent for CCTALK. > > Besides guns, cars, etc., CCTALK has quite a few discussions that are > not really ON-topic, but do seem to involve a fair number of overlaps in > interests between the folk here. > > While we don't want to be a support forum for current hardware, there > would seem to be a lot of subjects for which it would be difficult to be > sure about where the line falls as to being on-topic. The presence of > CCTALK reduces the need for rigidity in that enforcement. But, there > are other folk who would prefer a very rigid enforcement. > > >> (Sorry, Jay, I know you already put a lot of effort in and don't have >> time for this :-)) > Could we just agree to let Jay make the decisions on such trivia? > Yes, let the benevolent (guy who should act like) dictator call the shots... :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Nov 17 19:29:49 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 20:29:49 -0500 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? Message-ID: <139172.acf86a8.437d2e8d@aol.com> DO NOT THINK I CAN MAKE THE AOL MAIL FILTER THAT WAY.. In a message dated 11/17/2015 6:06:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net writes: On 11/17/2015 10:54 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Hello, > > By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add > [cctalk] or [cc] or [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? Not > looking to filter, just not looking to delete messages. > > This has been discussed _too_ many times... Please don't bring it up again.... Just setup a filter to shuffle CC stuff to it's own folder, then nuke it from there... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 17 19:53:33 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:53:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <139172.acf86a8.437d2e8d@aol.com> References: <139172.acf86a8.437d2e8d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > DO NOT THINK I CAN MAKE THE AOL MAIL FILTER THAT WAY.. Wow! There are few people with the inclination to ask a list full of old farts to make changes for AOL compatability! From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 17 19:56:37 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:56:37 -0600 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <139172.acf86a8.437d2e8d@aol.com> Message-ID: <000301d121a4$5e546f40$1afd4dc0$@classiccmp.org> On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > DO NOT THINK I CAN MAKE THE AOL MAIL FILTER THAT WAY.. Shark Jumped From steven at malikoff.com Tue Nov 17 20:03:44 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:03:44 +1000 Subject: QIC capstan In-Reply-To: References: <1447746438.3156.5.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>, Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: RE: QIC capstan From: "tony duell" Date: Wed, November 18, 2015 4:43 am To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> http://terrysrubberrollers.com/ >> >> Terry has rebuilt about a dozen rollers for me over the past 2 years. >> You'll need to remove the roller and send it in to him with a money order >> (he doesn't take checks or credit cards), but he'll do a fantastic job for >> about $40-50 per roller. > > Any suggestions for those of us who would rather do it ourselves? > > In my case I have 6 or 7 HP tape drives (an assortment of 9142's, 9144's and > a 9145) and 4 TU58 drives to do (at least). I suspect I could do it a lot cheaper > than around $500 and I don't want to send irreplaceable (and in the case of HP > drives, delicate (as it includes the tacho disk) parts around the world, > > The important one for me at the moment is the TU58. I have some suitable > aluminium alloy rod to make a new hub if need be, I've measured up the old > roller (the important dimension is the outside diameter -- 5/8") [1]. Any suggestions > as to what to use as a 'tyre' ? > > [1] Amusingly for a DEC machine, the motor spindle is 3mm diameter, not an > imperial size. > > -tony For that many rollers and that amount of money, personally I would spend it on a small lathe such as a Unimat, Taig or Sherline (I'm a Unimat fanatic myself, I love 'em. A vastly underrated machine if there ever was one). For sources of hard rubber material I would be looking at spindles and guide rollers from old printers, photocopiers, typewriters and other equipment. For example the IBM Selectric typewriter guide rollers that go under the platen. Hard rubber can be machined with a sharp bit, it's how forklift wheels and conveyor belt rollers etc. are brought to size after remoulding. If you have a vernier or digital caliper then get together some diagrams of what you need and I will see if I have anything in that range in my stash of rollers and guide wheels. Steve. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Nov 17 20:41:58 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 21:41:58 -0500 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? Message-ID: not really.... even using other email programs I like having [Name] in start of subj. hey I am an old fart too over 60! Ed# In a message dated 11/17/2015 6:53:38 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > DO NOT THINK I CAN MAKE THE AOL MAIL FILTER THAT WAY.. Wow! There are few people with the inclination to ask a list full of old farts to make changes for AOL compatability! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 17 20:46:47 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:46:47 -0700 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564BE697.6050406@jetnet.ab.ca> how about cc-squawk ... runs From dave at 661.org Tue Nov 17 21:02:54 2015 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:02:54 -0800 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <15FB4C9D-6E6F-4F19-9DDE-185603F2A8B7@661.org> On November 17, 2015 10:06:06 AM PST, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/17/15 7:54 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > Hello, > > > > By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add > [cctalk] or [cc] or [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? > > If you do this, please do the same for cctech, and make sure messages > go out from the correct source on cross-posted messages > (ie. "[cctalk] foo" on cctech), so I can simplify my dups filters. I thought cctalk and cctech were finally merged. Is this not true? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 21:20:07 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:20:07 -0800 Subject: ISO: Honeywell H316 power supply Message-ID: <564BEE67.8050502@gmail.com> Hi all -- Picked up a Honeywell H316 mini off eBay a couple of weeks back and it's in need of a power supply (it's completely missing). Given that it's a long shot that anyone has one rotting away somewhere, I've been planning on retrofitting something modern, but I figured I'd check here before I got too far into that *just* in case. Thanks as always, Josh From microtechdart at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 21:38:15 2015 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 21:38:15 -0600 Subject: QIC capstan In-Reply-To: <011201d12154$6bc028e0$43407aa0$@net> References: <1447746438.3156.5.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <011201d12154$6bc028e0$43407aa0$@net> Message-ID: I don't know about the materials, but I can say that his work has been so good, that I never even thought to even ask about a warranty. His email addresses are at the bottom of his very 90s looking website, and he usually replies within a day. On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Ali wrote: > > Terry has rebuilt about a dozen rollers for me over the past 2 years. > > You'll need to remove the roller and send it in to him with a money > > order (he doesn't take checks or credit cards), but he'll do a > > fantastic job for about $40-50 per roller. > > Just wondering what kind of material he uses to rebuild the roller and > what sort of warranty does he provide (if any?). > > -Ali > > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From microtechdart at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 21:45:21 2015 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 21:45:21 -0600 Subject: RevEng CRC model on really really long messages of 4096 bytes In-Reply-To: <564B2EC4.7060805@gmx.net> References: <564B2EC4.7060805@gmx.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the feedback here, Andreas, very good question. Actually, I was suspecting that I was running into the maximum length of the command line at least with Windows, and possibly with Linux, even though it displayed the full message in the terminal window. This is why I wanted to do the youtube video to actually show a result and how I arrived at it, and direct it to the software designer, rather than just try to describe it...yet, make it fully public so anyone could weigh in on it if they wanted to. There are a number of variables, and at this point, I'm just guessing at the solution, without enough knowledge yet to look "under the hood" of CRC_RevEng, or even CRCs themselves, and get a fuller understanding of what's happening behind the scenes. I'm hoping that he can run some kind of test that shows that his program is, indeed, processing the entire 8196+ character message/CRC parameter. Next best, would be someone with great experience using CRC_RevEng to show me how to run those diagnostics myself, and I've just missed them because I'm a newbie at this. On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Andreas Sikkema wrote: > AJ > > Are you sure you're not running into the maximum length of a command line? > > I haven't used Windows in a very long time, so I am not sure what the > current maximum is, but with > 16k characters I would assume it is at > least an option. > > -- > Andreas > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 22:20:14 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 23:20:14 -0500 Subject: ISO: Honeywell H316 power supply In-Reply-To: <564BEE67.8050502@gmail.com> References: <564BEE67.8050502@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 17, 2015 10:20 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > > Hi all -- > > Picked up a Honeywell H316 mini off eBay a couple of weeks back and it's in need of a power supply (it's completely missing). Given that it's a long shot that anyone has one rotting away somewhere, I've been planning on retrofitting something modern, but I figured I'd check here before I got too far into that *just* in case. > > Thanks as always, > Josh > > Josh, It is not as bad as you think. You could for example use a DEC h742, with associated regulator bricks, to power the h316. Most are ok as is. Exception being the h316 needs a 6v line. You could tweak a h744 voltage regulator to put out 6v rather than 5, by using the built-in h744's voltage adjustment potentiometer. In short look to digital equipm stuff, esp. the pdp11 power supplies as there are some close to what a Honeywell h316 needs. Yes I looked into all of this when considering bidding on the h316, I always wanted one of these. I have a lot of the docs Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From jws at jwsss.com Tue Nov 17 22:37:55 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 20:37:55 -0800 Subject: ISO: Honeywell H316 power supply In-Reply-To: <564BEE67.8050502@gmail.com> References: <564BEE67.8050502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <564C00A3.4070106@jwsss.com> On 11/17/2015 7:20 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Picked up a Honeywell H316 mini off eBay a couple of weeks back and > it's in need of a power supply (it's completely missing). Given that > it's a long shot that anyone has one rotting away somewhere, I've been > planning on retrofitting something modern, but I figured I'd check > here before I got too far into that *just* in case. > > Thanks as always, > Josh If it had been a 516, the Multics group of emulator writers are contemplating adding that system to SIMH + enhancements to make it a DN355 for the Multics communications front end. The 316 is similar, i think in assembler language design, but I don't know if you could get 316 code out of a Multics assembler for the 355 (with macros) or not. Looking forward to photos. thanks jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 17 23:55:14 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 05:55:14 +0000 Subject: QIC capstan In-Reply-To: References: <1447746438.3156.5.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>, , Message-ID: > For that many rollers and that amount of money, personally I would spend it on a small > lathe such as a Unimat, Taig or Sherline (I'm a Unimat fanatic myself, I love 'em. A > vastly underrated machine if there ever was one). Actually I have a Myford Super 7... > For sources of hard rubber material I would be looking at spindles and guide rollers from > old printers, photocopiers, typewriters and other equipment. For example the IBM Selectric > typewriter guide rollers that go under the platen. 'Rubber' (actually it's almost certainly a synthetic elastomer, but...) decays with time, that after all is why I/we are repairing these rollers in the first place. So I would rather not use old or NOS parts as a source of said material. I do not want to repair the rollers and be doing it again in a few months time. > Hard rubber can be machined with a sharp bit, it's how forklift wheels and conveyor belt > rollers etc. are brought to size after remoulding. IIRC the cutting angle is totally different. If you are not careful the cutter will dig in and being an elastomer the workpiece will be totally pulled out of shape. Cooling it will help, not too much or it will be as brittle as glass but I am told dry ice (solid CO_2) is about the right temperature. Getting that is not easy though. > If you have a vernier or digital caliper then get together some diagrams of what you need > and I will see if I have anything in that range in my stash of rollers and guide wheels. I have no problems making measurements (I have the vernier, and a 'tenth's mike' (a micrometer with the extra vernier scale on the barrel, not that I need anything like that accuracy for this job). It's getting the rubber that is the problem. -tony From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 18 03:28:28 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:28:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: > By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add or [cc] or > [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? Not looking to filter, just not > looking to delete messages. I *hate* modified subject lines, and I *hate* subjects that don't match the contents of the post, so I'm against this. There are enough possibilities to filter/sort Classiccmp mails; just have a look at some of the mail headers. So make a procmail/Sieve/whatever rule and sort the Classiccmp mails into another folder automatically. There is really no need to touch the subject. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 18 03:33:36 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:33:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> References: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > COMBINE THEM THEN JUST ADD TWO LETTERS AND A DASH AS THUS > CC- SOMEONE SUGGESTING THIS AND USING CAPITALS ONLY PROVES TO BE A MAIL NOOB ;-) Christian From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Nov 18 03:39:05 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 04:39:05 -0500 Subject: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? Message-ID: <17f873.5ffae369.437da139@aol.com> nope! think my first email program ran on windows 3.1 and... if I start in caps I finish in caps (tired old arthritic hands) Ed# In a message dated 11/18/2015 2:33:45 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de writes: On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > COMBINE THEM THEN JUST ADD TWO LETTERS AND A DASH AS THUS > CC- SOMEONE SUGGESTING THIS AND USING CAPITALS ONLY PROVES TO BE A MAIL NOOB ;-) Christian From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Nov 18 03:41:58 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 04:41:58 -0500 Subject: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? Message-ID: <17f8a8.79011de.437da1e6@aol.com> good point Ethan that is one of the main reasons as if it has a list designator I would defiantly look at it then.Ed# Tue, 17 Nov 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: > By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add or [cc] or > [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? Not looking to filter, just not > looking to delete messages. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 03:48:06 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 02:48:06 -0700 Subject: WD9000 Pascal Microengine floppy adapter (was Re: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available) Message-ID: The WD9000 Pascal Microengine main box does not include floppy drives. It can support up to four floppy drives, which can be either 8-inch (500 kbps transfer rate), or 5.25-inch (250 kbps transfer rate), as selected by a DIP switch setting on the WD900 board. Unfortunately the DIP switch directly controls the clock rate into the 1793 FDC chip, so it is not possible to mix 250 kbps and 500 kbps drives. However, it should be possible to mix 8-inch drives with high-density 5.25 inch or 3.5 inch drives that use the 500 Kbps transfer rate. The floppy connector on the back of the WD9000 box (and the WD900 board) uses a DC37S connector, and the pinout seems to be unique to the Pascal Microengine. My Microengines did not come with the floppy drives or cabling. I've designed a simple adapter PCB, and just got the first boards back from PCBWay today. I haven't yet finished assembling one because I screwed up ordering on some of the components and connectors. Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157660580290148 The WD900 board uses an FD1791 double-density floppy controller. It appears that the main board may have been originally intended for the FD1771 single-density controller, as the board revs I've seen don't have a suitable double-density data separator built in. On one of my units, the FD1791 is on a daughterboard with a typical analog data separator design using the WD1691 floppy support logic and a 74LS629 VCO. My other board has the FD1791 on the main board, but has some significant rework to install an SMC FDC9216B digital data separator chip in place of one of the TTL chips originally used by the main board design. I've seen other WD900 boards with the FDC9216B modification, so I think this was rework done at manufacturing time, rather than a field change. One aspect of the floppy controller design seems a bit unusual. The WD controllers have a HLD output used to tell the floppy drive to load the head, and an HLT input (Head Load Timing) to indicate that the head is loaded. After the controller asserts HLD, it waits for HLT to go true before proceeding with read, write, or format operations. A typical 8-inch drive takes 35 ms to load the head, and maybe a few more for head settling. A common way to wire the controller is to use an external one-shot triggered by HLD, with its output wired to HLT, and adjusted for a time delay a little longer than the drive requires for loading the head. 8-inch drives typically can either be jumpered to use a dedicated head load control line on the interface to control the head load solenoid, or to automatically load and unload the head as the drive select signal is asserted and deasserted. Normal 8-inch drives have the head load solenoid to do what was previously described, and run the spindle motor either all the time, or whenever a disk is inserted and the door closed. 5.25-inch drives, and some later 8-inch drives such as the Tandon TM848, do away with the head load solenoid and instead are intended to operate with the spindle motor active only when the drive is selected, or when a motor control signal is active. As such, they don't require any head load time, but instead require a motor startup time that is even longer; the slowest drives require about a second for spinup. With a WD controller, this is also sometimes accomodated by using the one-shot between HLD and HLT. Some WD-based controller designs, such as those in the TRS-80 Model I, III, and 4, are only intended for 5.25-inch drives (or the 8-inch drives that use motor control and no head load solenoid), and tie the READY signal from the drive to the HLT input of the FDC. The WD900 board tries to acommodate these variations by bringing the HLT signal to its DC37S connector, for the system integrator to wire up as desired. The only complete Pascal Microengine system I've seen up close in recent history had a hand-wired drive cable to 8-inch drives, with the HLT signal simply tied to a +5V pin on the same connector. The net effect of that is that the FD1791 asserts HLD, delays 15ms if the h bit of the command is 1, and does not delay any further. Unless the drive can actually load its head that quickly, this doesn't seem ideal, but I suppose it works because the FDC won't be able to read a valid sector address field until the head is loaded. For a write operation, I'd worry that the head might not have fully settled by the time the actual write begins, possibly leading to unreliable writes. To support proper head load or motor spinup timing, I put an optional PIC microcontroller and DIP switch on the adapter, to act as a digital delay between HLD and HLT, with sixteen switch-selectable delays. The drive select lines are wired to PIC inputs, so if desired, firmware could actually use different delays for different drive selects, if you mix drives with different head load timing requirements. I haven't yet written any PIC code for it. The board should basically work as described above with HLT jumpered to +5V, without the PIC and related components installed. The adapter has both a 50-pin connector for 8-inch drives, and a 34-pin connector for 5.25-inch or 3.5-inch drives. It is intended for one connector or the other to be used, but not both. Even if you use a combination of drives that all use the 500 kbps transfer rate, having them cabled separately to the two connectors could result in termination problems. Naturally, only hours after ordering the PCBs I thought of improvements that I'd like to make to the design, but I don't anticipate that there will be a second run of boards. I don't presently have any bootable disk for the Pascal Microengine, so I'm not yet able to test the adapter. However, if anyone else needs such a thing, I have a small number of bare boards that can be made available inexpensively. (I don't have time to assemble boards other than for myself.) If there's any interest, I'll publish the Eagle design files, gerber and excellon files, a PDF of the schematic, and source and object code for the PIC firmware. The firmware will be GPLv3 licensed, and the other design files with be under a Creative Commons license, probably CC BY-SA 4.0. From simski at dds.nl Wed Nov 18 04:05:13 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:05:13 +0100 Subject: [cctalk] was: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564C4D59.5010006@dds.nl> Hello all, unfortunately a lot of people *hate* things already. As I am subscribed to a lot of lists (about 10), this is the only one not using a [header] in the subject lines. Modified subject lines are like Re: Re: Re: foobar. people tend to forget that the subject of a message has changed, but the subject line not. And to trigger yet another trollbait, top or bottom posting is also bad/good ;-) On 18-11-15 10:28, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add or [cc] >> or [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? Not looking to >> filter, just not looking to delete messages. > > I *hate* modified subject lines, and I *hate* subjects that don't match > the contents of the post, so I'm against this. > There are enough possibilities to filter/sort Classiccmp mails; just > have a look at some of the mail headers. So make a > procmail/Sieve/whatever rule and sort the Classiccmp mails into another > folder automatically. There is really no need to touch the subject. > > Christian > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From simski at dds.nl Wed Nov 18 04:09:18 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:09:18 +0100 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <139172.acf86a8.437d2e8d@aol.com> References: <139172.acf86a8.437d2e8d@aol.com> Message-ID: <564C4E4E.7060607@dds.nl> On 18-11-15 02:29, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > DO NOT THINK I CAN MAKE THE AOL MAIL FILTER THAT WAY.. > Hi Dave, There seems to be something wrong with your keyboard. is the caps key stuck? better replace it before someone misinterpret your messages. -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Nov 18 04:11:26 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:11:26 +0100 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> <564B85F3.4090903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <564C4ECE.1040302@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-17 21:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Al Kossow wrote: >> Yes, they were two separate lists at one point, then someone decided >> to start forwarding messages between the two, and other people started >> posting replies to the wrong list. All of the replies to the post >> about the collection being given away was from cctalk, but the actual >> message was posted on cctech. You can't effectively filter out the >> crap from the other list because the headers being sent through aren't >> always right. I lost the original collection msg because my filter >> thought it had been sent from cctalk and forwarded to cctech. >> There was a discussion about getting rid of one or the other list. >> I wish someone would just DO IT. > > If I recall correctly (unrefreshed dynamic wetware RAM), it was not two > separate lists. CCTECH was a subset of CCTALK. CCTECH was to be > ON-topic ONLY, with CCTALK quite a bit looser, to be able to devolve > into determining location from ham radio callsigns, etc. Everything > posted to CCTECH was echoed on CCTALK. A participant needed only to > subscribe to one list, depending on how tolerant they wanted to be about > off-topic tangents. > > Then there was a horrible crash. It was neither Y2K, nor winter > solctice 2012, but the entire universe came to an end, and there was NO > list traffic at all! Heroic efforts were made, and the list[s] were > brought back to life! > > But nobody could manage to successfully replicate the previous > configuration, and all the king's horsemen and all the king's men could > not put it back together again. Posts to CCTECH did get forwarded to > CCTALK, and posts to CCTALK that were deemed to be ON-topic did get > forwarded to CCTECH, and those foolish enough to be subscribed to both > lists did get two copies. But, then the posts to CCTALK that were > deemed worthy to be copied by CCTECH also got automagically forwarded > back to CCTALK. When people posted to both lists, or replied to a post > to both lists, or didn't pay attention to what they were doing, there > were duplicates, and duplicates of duplicates, and sometimes duplicates > of duplicates of duplicates. > > The list management have strived valiantly to repair the system, and > have gotten pretty close, but it may never be quite as it was in the > good ol' days.. Quite honestly, if you ask me, it didn't work in the good old days either. Johnny From kurtk7 at visi.com Wed Nov 18 05:04:33 2015 From: kurtk7 at visi.com (Kurt K) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 05:04:33 -0600 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <564C4ECE.1040302@update.uu.se> References: <564B6C8E.4010608@bitsavers.org> <564B725C.9010808@charter.net> <564B85F3.4090903@bitsavers.org> <564C4ECE.1040302@update.uu.se> Message-ID: I think the most important thing is the system works. Duplicates are annoying but I'll take that over not getting my messages at all. > On Nov 18, 2015, at 4:11 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2015-11-17 21:32, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Al Kossow wrote: >>> Yes, they were two separate lists at one point, then someone decided >>> to start forwarding messages between the two, and other people started >>> posting replies to the wrong list. All of the replies to the post >>> about the collection being given away was from cctalk, but the actual >>> message was posted on cctech. You can't effectively filter out the >>> crap from the other list because the headers being sent through aren't >>> always right. I lost the original collection msg because my filter >>> thought it had been sent from cctalk and forwarded to cctech. >>> There was a discussion about getting rid of one or the other list. >>> I wish someone would just DO IT. >> >> If I recall correctly (unrefreshed dynamic wetware RAM), it was not two >> separate lists. CCTECH was a subset of CCTALK. CCTECH was to be >> ON-topic ONLY, with CCTALK quite a bit looser, to be able to devolve >> into determining location from ham radio callsigns, etc. Everything >> posted to CCTECH was echoed on CCTALK. A participant needed only to >> subscribe to one list, depending on how tolerant they wanted to be about >> off-topic tangents. >> >> Then there was a horrible crash. It was neither Y2K, nor winter >> solctice 2012, but the entire universe came to an end, and there was NO >> list traffic at all! Heroic efforts were made, and the list[s] were >> brought back to life! >> >> But nobody could manage to successfully replicate the previous >> configuration, and all the king's horsemen and all the king's men could >> not put it back together again. Posts to CCTECH did get forwarded to >> CCTALK, and posts to CCTALK that were deemed to be ON-topic did get >> forwarded to CCTECH, and those foolish enough to be subscribed to both >> lists did get two copies. But, then the posts to CCTALK that were >> deemed worthy to be copied by CCTECH also got automagically forwarded >> back to CCTALK. When people posted to both lists, or replied to a post >> to both lists, or didn't pay attention to what they were doing, there >> were duplicates, and duplicates of duplicates, and sometimes duplicates >> of duplicates of duplicates. >> >> The list management have strived valiantly to repair the system, and >> have gotten pretty close, but it may never be quite as it was in the >> good ol' days.. > > Quite honestly, if you ask me, it didn't work in the good old days either. > > Johnny > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 18 05:14:00 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:14:00 +0000 Subject: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com>, Message-ID: > > COMBINE THEM THEN JUST ADD TWO LETTERS AND A DASH AS THUS > > CC- > > SOMEONE SUGGESTING THIS AND USING CAPITALS ONLY PROVES TO BE A MAIL NOOB > ;-) Or is using a Model 33 ASR (or KSR) :-) -tony From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Nov 18 05:48:05 2015 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:48:05 +0000 Subject: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> Message-ID: On 18 November 2015 at 11:14, tony duell wrote: > > > COMBINE THEM THEN JUST ADD TWO LETTERS AND A DASH AS THUS > > > CC- > > > > SOMEONE SUGGESTING THIS AND USING CAPITALS ONLY PROVES TO BE A MAIL NOOB > > ;-) > > Or is using a Model 33 ASR (or KSR) :-) > > -tony > MY INFOTON TERMINAL IS UPPERCASE ONLY! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From simski at dds.nl Wed Nov 18 06:22:15 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:22:15 +0100 Subject: [cctalk]Re: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> Message-ID: <564C6D77.4080002@dds.nl> nothing a simple script on the connected computer can't fix though... On 18-11-15 12:48, John Many Jars wrote: > On 18 November 2015 at 11:14, tony duell wrote: > >>>> COMBINE THEM THEN JUST ADD TWO LETTERS AND A DASH AS THUS >>>> CC- >>> >>> SOMEONE SUGGESTING THIS AND USING CAPITALS ONLY PROVES TO BE A MAIL NOOB >>> ;-) >> >> Or is using a Model 33 ASR (or KSR) :-) >> >> -tony >> > > MY INFOTON TERMINAL IS UPPERCASE ONLY! > > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 06:43:20 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 04:43:20 -0800 Subject: [cctalk]Re: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <564C6D77.4080002@dds.nl> References: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> <564C6D77.4080002@dds.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 4:22 AM, simon wrote: > nothing a simple script on the connected computer can't fix though... > > \\The \\Multics card reader job control handler maps uppercase to lowercase (many of the keypunch machines did uppercase only). \\You indicated uppercase with a leading \, but of course the \\U\\N\\I\\X shell treats \ as an escape, so when using my card deck submission script \\I have to escape the uppercase characters for the account name, project and password parameters. ./submitDeck test.deck \\Anthony \\Sys\\Eng sec\\Krit -- \\Charles From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Nov 18 07:27:39 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:27:39 +0000 Subject: Front Panel Message-ID: <564C7CCB.40809@btinternet.com> The front panel I needed to check the layout has arrived or at least got as far as the postal depot at Reading. There is some customs duty on it. So I'll be there at 07:00 when they open in the morning. I'll check the measurements and take the artwork over to the screen printers when I get back. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 18 07:58:00 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 05:58:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <000301d1218b$13b75dd0$3b261970$@classiccmp.org> References: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> <000301d1218b$13b75dd0$3b261970$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Jay West wrote: > Ed# wrote... > COMBINE THEM THEN JUST ADD TWO LETTERS AND A DASH AS THUS > CC- > > No. How about [CC] prefixed by a Copyright symbol so we can streamline and process two arguments at once? :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 08:12:04 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:12:04 -0500 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: <134040.74704261.437cf806@aol.com> <000301d1218b$13b75dd0$3b261970$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > > > Ed# wrote... >> COMBINE THEM THEN JUST ADD TWO LETTERS AND A DASH AS THUS >> CC- >> >> No. >> > > How about [CC] prefixed by a Copyright symbol so we can streamline and > process two arguments at once? :D > > g. > > -- > > Why not just put a filter into your mail server or software to look for a cctalk-unique marker and simply append CCTALK to the subject? I have not followed every message in this thread, but it's pretty easy to append text using a content filter, at least for me and the set up I have. -- Bill From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 18 08:24:13 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:24:13 -0500 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <000301d121a4$5e546f40$1afd4dc0$@classiccmp.org> References: <139172.acf86a8.437d2e8d@aol.com> <000301d121a4$5e546f40$1afd4dc0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <564C8A0D.7020109@sbcglobal.net> On 11/17/2015 08:56 PM, Jay West wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: >> DO NOT THINK I CAN MAKE THE AOL MAIL FILTER THAT WAY.. > > > > Shark Jumped > > Aaaaaaiiiieeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!! -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 18 08:59:16 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:59:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <17f8a8.79011de.437da1e6@aol.com> References: <17f8a8.79011de.437da1e6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Nov 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > good point Ethan that is one of the main reasons as if it has a list > designator I would defiantly look at it then.Ed# Did you mean "DEFINITELY"? We've seen enough DEFIANCE From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 18 10:55:04 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:55:04 -0600 Subject: [cctalk] was: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <564C4D59.5010006@dds.nl> References: <564C4D59.5010006@dds.nl> Message-ID: <564CAD68.7060901@pico-systems.com> On 11/18/2015 04:05 AM, simon wrote: > Hello all, > > unfortunately a lot of people *hate* things already. As I > am subscribed to a lot of lists (about 10), this is the > only one not using a [header] in the subject lines. > I use Thunderbird, and the filter is set for : To: contains cctalk To: contains cctech cc: contains cctalk This seems to catch all variants of the messages and put them in their folder. Jon From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Nov 18 11:24:24 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:24:24 -0500 Subject: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? Message-ID: <187f5d.707ddbc8.437e0e48@aol.com> OR UC ONLY BEEHIVE TERMINAL! NOTHING LIKE 'RIDIN THE 'HIVE AT MIDNITE! In a message dated 11/18/2015 4:24:14 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > > COMBINE THEM THEN JUST ADD TWO LETTERS AND A DASH AS THUS > > CC- > > SOMEONE SUGGESTING THIS AND USING CAPITALS ONLY PROVES TO BE A MAIL NOOB > ;-) Or is using a Model 33 ASR (or KSR) :-) -tony = From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Nov 18 12:38:15 2015 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:38:15 +0100 Subject: WD9000 Pascal Microengine docu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564CC597.9080002@bluewin.ch> I uploaded the last batch of documentation i have on the WD9000. Goodies are at ftp.dreesen.ch/WD9000 Note that there are now early and later versions of the schematics. Ref F6 of the schematic is what i put up earlier, I now combined them into a single PDF file. The earlier set E5 does show a different interrupt controller. Al, feel free to copy if it is of use to you. and now to get a 8 inch floppy imaging system set up..... Jos From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Wed Nov 18 12:47:37 2015 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:47:37 +0100 Subject: WD9000 Pascal Microengine floppy adapter (was Re: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564CC7C9.9090501@bluewin.ch> Thanks for the writeup, luckily i have a complete system with 2x8" floppies. It is a SE-90, like this : http://www.thepcmuseum.net/details.php?RECORD_KEY%28museum%29=id&id%28museum%29=603 A very early system, and handwritten notes in the docu suggest it was a temperamental beast. I do wonder how may wd900 systems are still around. Likewise for the QBUS variant of the WD9000, that must also be extremely rare. Jos From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Wed Nov 18 13:39:37 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:39:37 +0000 Subject: Wanted: 9-track tapes. Message-ID: Does anyone have any 9-track tapes for sale, preferably in the UK/EU? I'm getting tired of ordering NOS tape from the US just to find they've got sticky-shed... I'd also like one of those early IBM style reels, the red/blue ones with the three "viewing holes". Doesn't have to work. -Tom From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Nov 18 14:51:55 2015 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:51:55 +0100 Subject: Wanted: 9-track tapes. References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Moss" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 8:39 PM Subject: Wanted: 9-track tapes. > Does anyone have any 9-track tapes for sale, preferably in the UK/EU? I'm > getting tired of ordering NOS tape from the US just to find they've got > sticky-shed... > > I'd also like one of those early IBM style reels, the red/blue ones with > the three "viewing holes". Doesn't have to work. > > -Tom I have quite a few. I can even offer to erase them on a Qualstar 3412, so you (1) can be sure that they don't stick, and (2) that you don't have access to old user data. I believe some have "viewing holes". /Nico -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 653 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Nov 18 15:12:41 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:12:41 -0600 Subject: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <91E193AA-2DB3-4958-A582-6921F314DD56@aracnet.com> References: <91E193AA-2DB3-4958-A582-6921F314DD56@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20151118211241.GA17642@RawFedDogs.net> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 04:45:05PM -0800, Zane Healy wrote: > Better yet, leave it alone. The correct solution is for people to filter > their email. It?s better to have more characters that actually mean > something show up in the subject line. I'll second that motion. :-) -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Nov 18 15:25:25 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:25:25 -0600 Subject: Could someone make the list do the thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: <564C4D59.5010006@dds.nl> References: <564C4D59.5010006@dds.nl> Message-ID: <20151118212524.GB17642@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:05:13AM +0100, simon wrote: > As I am subscribed to a lot of lists (about 10), this is the only one not > using a [header] in the subject lines. That's not a lot of lists. I'm subscribed to a few hundred. Checking my sieve filter I'm currently filtering 255 lists by the List-ID header. While many of the lists I'm on do have a [list id] in the subject line, many of the other lists I'm don't, and they're not needed on any of the lists I'm on. Filtering by a List-ID header is a much better option. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From rickb at bensene.com Wed Nov 18 15:33:06 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:33:06 -0800 Subject: Could someone make this topic go away? Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029D9C@mail.bensene.com> I'm sick of this junk. Let's get back to writing about real computers rather than arguing over how the lists should work. Sheesh. -Rick From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 18:49:38 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:49:38 -0600 Subject: Could someone make this topic go away? In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029D9C@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029D9C@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: Yes! Who cares about that crap I don't get it so stupid and lame there's better things to care about like preserving computer history before we loose it On Nov 18, 2015 3:33 PM, "Rick Bensene" wrote: > I'm sick of this junk. Let's get back to writing about real computers > rather than arguing over how the lists should work. > > Sheesh. > > -Rick > From thebri at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 04:20:29 2015 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 05:20:29 -0500 Subject: PDP 8a transformer capacitor replacement? Message-ID: Having read all sorts of bad things about these older oil filled capacitors, I decided to replace the one on my 8a. I got what I think is a replacement - 6 microF, 660VAC, 50/60Hz, "NO PCB's" - but it is physically about 1/3 the size as the original. Did the tech for these get that much better? What purpose does this serve? It's hanging off the transformer. I see lots of links about motor start capacitors, but nothing relating to transformers. http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cornell-Dubilier/SFA66S6K288B-F Thanks, b From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 19 08:03:02 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 09:03:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Testing bus transceivers Message-ID: <20151119140302.223A718C12A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor > A number of data books have circuits that were used to measure the > parameters .. so you might want to look at some of them Thanks for the tip! Alas, I don't know of any data books with circuits like that - any pointers? (And it's only the leakage current I need to check; the other 3 key DC parameters I have already managed to check.) > From: Mark J. Blair > Do you have any sort of precision, regulated, adjustable lab bench > power supply that you could use to vary input voltage? Well, I have some Lambdas, but I'm not sure they are 'precision' (any more - the pots are kind of dirty/flaky, so they jump when you turn them). > If not, using a potentiometer as you mentioned would also work. Yeah, that's what I did - running a 500 ohm pot from ground to +5V provided a nice input, and I was able to verify the 'maximum 0 input voltage' and the 'mininum 1 input voltage' quite easily. I also realized that in a system with 'normal' single QBUS box with termination, one has a 330 ohm pull-up in the CPU's termination, and 180 ohm pull-up in the BDV11 terminator, which adds up to 42 mA into the transceiver when pulling to low voltage; if one adds another 180 ohm pull-up, that adds another 28 mA, getting me to the required 70 mA for the 'maximum 0 output voltage' check. Since the QBUS specs allow another termination, if you have a second box, that's probably why they spec it at 70 mA, actually. > Also, how many of these did you buy? Umm, like 400? :-) (Dave Bridgham and I are winding up to produce a QBUS card which uses SD memory cards along with an FPGA and micro-controller to emulate a range of DEC disk systems - RK11, RP11, etc - and we wanted to assure a goodly supply of our selected transceiver chip before we spin out a PC board.) > If it's something like a dozen, manual testing will be practical. If > it's something like a hundred, then automating the testing might be a > good idea, and a fun project all by itself if that sort of thing > interests you. Well, not really, to be honest (I'm not an analog person), plus to which I have a zillion other projects (e.g. a bunch of UNIBUS machines to refurbish, plus other non-computer things) which are backlogged, the last thing I need is another one! ;-) Also, you might be able to automate the _testing_, but one still has to plug the chips in and out, which is a certain amount of work, so it's not like automated testing would allow me to trivially check really large numbers of chips. Which is why I've adopted the 'test randomly selected units for meeting specs' approach (remember, I'm just trying to make sure these aren't counterfeits), and for that, manual testing works fine. Noel From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 09:38:25 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 13:38:25 -0200 Subject: Could someone make this topic go away? References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029D9C@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <280259AF858D42978BDEC00DC3006E4A@deskjara> "delete" key does wonders... --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Bensene" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 7:33 PM Subject: Could someone make this topic go away? I'm sick of this junk. Let's get back to writing about real computers rather than arguing over how the lists should work. Sheesh. -Rick From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 07:01:09 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 09:01:09 -0400 Subject: PDP 8a transformer capacitor replacement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564DC815.4010105@gmail.com> On 2015-11-19 6:20 AM, Brian Walenz wrote: > Having read all sorts of bad things about these older oil filled > capacitors, I decided to replace the one on my 8a. I got what I think is a > replacement - 6 microF, 660VAC, 50/60Hz, "NO PCB's" - but it is physically > about 1/3 the size as the original. > > Did the tech for these get that much better? > > What purpose does this serve? It's hanging off the transformer. I see > lots of links about motor start capacitors, but nothing relating to > transformers. > > http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cornell-Dubilier/SFA66S6K288B-F > > Thanks, > b The capacitor is likely on a separate winding and the tank circuit created by this winding and the capacitor works to regulate the output voltage also referred to as a "Constant Voltage Transformer". If this capacitor goes short you get zero output from the transformer a lesson I learned early in my career as a service rep. When the capacitors are going bad they will sometimes swell up and even burst. Early capacitors of this type where filled with an oil that contained PCBs but by the mid 70s some manufacturers had replaced them with capacitors that did not contain PCBs on all in service machines. Paul. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Nov 19 07:49:42 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 13:49:42 +0000 Subject: PDP 8a transformer capacitor replacement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564DD376.8000503@btinternet.com> Hi Power factor correction? Hum suppression? If its the type in a small squarish soldered up can. Then open can and remove oil and paper. Replace with modern type Close up can and re-solder Put it back where it came from. Rod On 19/11/15 10:20, Brian Walenz wrote: > Having read all sorts of bad things about these older oil filled > capacitors, I decided to replace the one on my 8a. I got what I think is a > replacement - 6 microF, 660VAC, 50/60Hz, "NO PCB's" - but it is physically > about 1/3 the size as the original. > > Did the tech for these get that much better? > > What purpose does this serve? It's hanging off the transformer. I see > lots of links about motor start capacitors, but nothing relating to > transformers. > > http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cornell-Dubilier/SFA66S6K288B-F > > Thanks, > b From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Nov 19 10:43:03 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:43:03 +0000 Subject: Front Panels Message-ID: <564DFC17.1030701@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Well the panel is here and I'm analyzing it to see what it tells us. So far it looks like I need to add a band of gray matte base to the front and a band of similar over the light ports on on the back. Looks like I have a new product. It's called an "Invisipanel" Its a clear plexiglas blank I use for checking alignments. Because its so clear I cant find it!!!! Rod From jason at textfiles.com Thu Nov 19 11:03:46 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:03:46 -0500 Subject: Could someone make this topic go away? In-Reply-To: <280259AF858D42978BDEC00DC3006E4A@deskjara> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029D9C@mail.bensene.com> <280259AF858D42978BDEC00DC3006E4A@deskjara> Message-ID: As does pressing "m" (mute) if Gmail is your client. Archives the topic automatically. Use it all the time. On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > "delete" key does wonders... > > --- > Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Bensene" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 7:33 PM > Subject: Could someone make this topic go away? > > > > I'm sick of this junk. Let's get back to writing about real computers > rather than arguing over how the lists should work. > > Sheesh. > > -Rick > From cube1 at charter.net Thu Nov 19 11:24:05 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:24:05 -0600 Subject: Todays Topic from Panelman In-Reply-To: <564B8823.5010607@btinternet.com> References: <564AE6AC.1010200@btinternet.com> <564B7418.1070001@charter.net> <564B8823.5010607@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <564E05B5.40601@charter.net> On 11/17/2015 2:03 PM, rod wrote: > Thanks yes they do look similar. I'll download the data sheet. > What I forgot to explain was the problem is not the switch itself but > the additional part on top into which the two pivot pins locate. > My policy is to produce form factor replacements. In this case the lever > arm. > If they can then be incorporated into other assemblies then good. > > Here the lever rotates about a pivot point formed by the two sides of > the additional structure on top. > A missing segment in the lower semi-circular part of the lever engages > with the slide switch and moves it. > So there being no known source of the switch with the extra part on top > and not wanting to change the lever. > What do we do? It would not have been feasible to make the top part and > attach it, as its spring steel. > Its horrible stuff to work with. Pretty much you are limited to die > stamping it in a heavy press. > If the contacts are bad, then, after removal, perhaps you could unfold the tabs that hold the fiber/phenolic piece with the contacts in it and then swap that contact piece and maybe the switch post piece, and bend the tabs back, keeping the original mechanical parts? JRJ > They would have punched the shape and the holes out with a hardened die > and then before or after spot welding it to an empty switch body hit it > again with a folding die to bring the sides up. > That would be too expensive to get set up. So I am looking at alternatives. > > Rod > > > > > On 17/11/15 18:38, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> On 11/17/2015 2:34 AM, rod wrote: >>> Now to the slide switches themselves. >>> >>> They are mounted by the screw hole lugs having been slid into a groove >>> in two aluminum bars which in turn are attached to the PCB by pillars >>> and screws. >>> There are six connection pins on the bottom of each switch that go into >>> holes in the PCB. (not all used) Switch replacement would be easy and a >>> complete switch and lever sub module not too difficult. I hear a voice >>> from the distant past saying 'Micro switches' >>> >>> Thats all for to-day >>> >>> Rod >>> >> The ones I have seen (on my PDP-8/L and PDP-12) are simple stock >> old-school slide switches (definitely not Micro-Switch switches), that >> typically look like this one: >> >> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/GF-1126-1110/SW105-ND/948 >> >> (I did *not* check dimensions to see if this particular one is right or >> not - there were standard size and miniature versions. But the photo >> looks about right). >> >> JRU >> >> > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 11:27:51 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:27:51 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance Message-ID: Performed maintenance of my VAX 4000-200. Removed NiCad battery Replaced hard drive Made new image of system drive The how-to is all over the web, but I summarized a lot of the basic support tasks associated with a networked VAX 4000 here for anyone interested in a simple "for dummies" page http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=608 The system is hosted here: vax4000.vintagecomputer.net -- Bill From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 19 15:27:10 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 21:27:10 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013f01d12311$0cd84010$2688c030$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: 19 November 2015 17:28 > To: cctech > Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance > > Performed maintenance of my VAX 4000-200. > > Removed NiCad battery My to-do list has me doing the rounds of all my machines to check them all for the batteries. I'd like to replace rather than remove though, but that could get expensive at about ?10-12 pounds per machine for the cordless phone battery packs sold by Maplin. Maybe there is a better alternative, I should go and take a look. Regards Rob > Replaced hard drive > Made new image of system drive > > The how-to is all over the web, but I summarized a lot of the basic support tasks > associated with a networked VAX 4000 here for anyone interested in a simple > "for dummies" page > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=608 > > The system is hosted here: > vax4000.vintagecomputer.net > > -- > Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 15:35:38 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:35:38 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance In-Reply-To: <013f01d12311$0cd84010$2688c030$@ntlworld.com> References: <013f01d12311$0cd84010$2688c030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > > degnan > > Sent: 19 November 2015 17:28 > > To: cctech > > Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance > > > > Performed maintenance of my VAX 4000-200. > > > > Removed NiCad battery > > > My to-do list has me doing the rounds of all my machines to check them all > for the batteries. I'd like to replace rather than remove though, but that > could get expensive at about ?10-12 pounds per machine for the cordless > phone battery packs sold by Maplin. Maybe there is a better alternative, I > should go and take a look. > > Regards > > Rob > > > It was a pain to take the M7626 apart, I did think about replacing but decided I don't mind entering in the date whenever I boot up the system vs. worrying about the future. Overall I remove all batteries unless they're required. For example I removed all Amiga 2000 batteries, but keep up-to-date with things like IBM 5170 AT's and Compaq's 386-Pentium class systems because they need batteries to hold their configuration, (what a pain). -- Bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 16:11:26 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:11:26 -0800 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <013f01d12311$0cd84010$2688c030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:35 PM, william degnan wrote: > It was a pain to take the M7626 apart, I did think about replacing but > decided I don't mind entering in the date whenever I boot up the system vs. > worrying about the future. > Removing 6 screws and a lock nut on the M7626 KA660 H3602 console panel to remove the PCB so you can remove the battery now is a lot easier and better than doing it later after the battery has started leaking and corroding things and then trying to repair the damage. I was just looking at a system with an M7626 KA660 a couple of days ago and the network connectivity through the H3602 AUI Ethernet port was very flaky. The H3602 had some signs of leaking battery corrosion that I had previously tried to clean. I swapped that H3602 panel with another one that also had some signs of leaking battery corrosion and that one seemed to work OK, at least for now. Trying to correct whatever is damaged on the bad H3602 panel will be a pain. It's not worth the risk of leaving those NiCad battery packs in any old DEC gear. It's not that much of a pain to set the date and time every time I actually get around to powering on the systems. The early VAX 3100 desktops have those same evil NiCad battery packs. From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com Thu Nov 19 16:11:32 2015 From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:11:32 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance In-Reply-To: <013f01d12311$0cd84010$2688c030$@ntlworld.com> References: <013f01d12311$0cd84010$2688c030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6DC1B8D3-B88F-413B-90E2-8D6F1B336EF4@VMSSoftware.com> Dear Rob, Just an idea Nemonix Engineering (previous employer) does maintenance and support for PDP, VAX and Alpha. I know that they had new batteries. Not new in the DEC packaging but newly mad they may be able to do some thing for you. Contact Wayne Beeson and let him know I sent you. url is nemonix.com phone is 508-393-7700 Coming from a DEC background it was amazing to see this hardware still in active work. On of my favorites was discussions was around fans. When the hardware was originally made they did not include sealed fans for general sale so as the fan got old and slowed down it would gradually heat up the mother board so folks thought it was a mother board issue, get it replaced and then a few moths later the fan would break and people would have t replace. Nemonix did both so it was not an issue just uncomfortable for the customer. If there is anything I can do to help please just let me know. Warm Regards, Sue > On Nov 19, 2015, at 4:27 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william >> degnan >> Sent: 19 November 2015 17:28 >> To: cctech >> Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance >> >> Performed maintenance of my VAX 4000-200. >> >> Removed NiCad battery > > > My to-do list has me doing the rounds of all my machines to check them all for the batteries. I'd like to replace rather than remove though, but that could get expensive at about ?10-12 pounds per machine for the cordless phone battery packs sold by Maplin. Maybe there is a better alternative, I should go and take a look. > > Regards > > Rob > >> Replaced hard drive >> Made new image of system drive >> >> The how-to is all over the web, but I summarized a lot of the basic support tasks >> associated with a networked VAX 4000 here for anyone interested in a simple >> "for dummies" page >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=608 >> >> The system is hosted here: >> vax4000.vintagecomputer.net >> >> -- >> Bill > Sue Skonetski VP of Customer Advocacy Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 16:54:26 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:54:26 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance Message-ID: <4DEB59D7DE1344E393BAA1A8AB44EF43@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Jarratt" Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 4:27 PM ... My to-do list has me doing the rounds of all my machines to check them all for the batteries. I'd like to replace rather than remove though, but that could get expensive at about ?10-12 pounds per machine for the cordless phone battery packs sold by Maplin. Maybe there is a better alternative, I should go and take a look. Regards Rob ----- Reply ----- Wow! I buy mine for $2 to $4 at the local 'Dollar' store... Or you could order from the usual place; e.g.: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/Battery/1191734_259040387.html m From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 17:37:53 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:37:53 -0600 Subject: Could someone make this topic go away? In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029D9C@mail.bensene.com> <280259AF858D42978BDEC00DC3006E4A@deskjara> Message-ID: <20151119233753.GD10191@gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015, Jason Scott wrote: > As does pressing "m" (mute) if Gmail is your client. Archives the topic > automatically. Use it all the time. That doesn't work for me; perhaps it's because all mail from this list is already (automatically) archived by a rule I have. I have tons of rules like that; they apply an appropriate tag and archive the messages, so I have to navigate into a specific folder to read a group's messages. -- Eric Christopherson From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 19 18:00:58 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 00:00:58 -0000 Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU Message-ID: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> While I look into what is wrong with my H7864, I'd like to use a modern PSU to power my machine (actually an rtVAX 1000). I think I would need to deal with the following problems: 1. Finding the right connectors (ideally, I am sure I could rig up something more temporary). 2. A way to power the fans, which I believe are 15V, perhaps they would run on 12V as I wouldn't run the machine for long periods anyway, or I could just use PC fans. 3. Emulate the DC OK and P OK signals, I suspect these would be simple +5V signals which could perhaps just come from the +5V of the PSU anyway (unless there is a problem with that). 4. The most difficult bit, I suspect, would be the PSU LTC signal , which I believe is some kind of clock. I don't know what the spec of the signal is, but I will get a scope on a working one to see (NB don't want to risk a working PSU on this machine in case it was a problem with the machine itself that caused the first PSU to fail, I don't mind sacrificing a modern PSU if need be). Has anyone done this before? Regards Rob From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 19:22:32 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:22:32 -0200 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <013f01d12311$0cd84010$2688c030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Common househoud vinegar does wonders for this kind of battery leak problem... 2015-11-19 20:11 GMT-02:00 Glen Slick : > On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:35 PM, william degnan > wrote: > > It was a pain to take the M7626 apart, I did think about replacing but > > decided I don't mind entering in the date whenever I boot up the system > vs. > > worrying about the future. > > > > Removing 6 screws and a lock nut on the M7626 KA660 H3602 console > panel to remove the PCB so you can remove the battery now is a lot > easier and better than doing it later after the battery has started > leaking and corroding things and then trying to repair the damage. > > I was just looking at a system with an M7626 KA660 a couple of days > ago and the network connectivity through the H3602 AUI Ethernet port > was very flaky. The H3602 had some signs of leaking battery corrosion > that I had previously tried to clean. I swapped that H3602 panel with > another one that also had some signs of leaking battery corrosion and > that one seemed to work OK, at least for now. Trying to correct > whatever is damaged on the bad H3602 panel will be a pain. It's not > worth the risk of leaving those NiCad battery packs in any old DEC > gear. It's not that much of a pain to set the date and time every time > I actually get around to powering on the systems. > > The early VAX 3100 desktops have those same evil NiCad battery packs. > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 19:22:32 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:22:32 -0200 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <013f01d12311$0cd84010$2688c030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Common househoud vinegar does wonders for this kind of battery leak problem... 2015-11-19 20:11 GMT-02:00 Glen Slick : > On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:35 PM, william degnan > wrote: > > It was a pain to take the M7626 apart, I did think about replacing but > > decided I don't mind entering in the date whenever I boot up the system > vs. > > worrying about the future. > > > > Removing 6 screws and a lock nut on the M7626 KA660 H3602 console > panel to remove the PCB so you can remove the battery now is a lot > easier and better than doing it later after the battery has started > leaking and corroding things and then trying to repair the damage. > > I was just looking at a system with an M7626 KA660 a couple of days > ago and the network connectivity through the H3602 AUI Ethernet port > was very flaky. The H3602 had some signs of leaking battery corrosion > that I had previously tried to clean. I swapped that H3602 panel with > another one that also had some signs of leaking battery corrosion and > that one seemed to work OK, at least for now. Trying to correct > whatever is damaged on the bad H3602 panel will be a pain. It's not > worth the risk of leaving those NiCad battery packs in any old DEC > gear. It's not that much of a pain to set the date and time every time > I actually get around to powering on the systems. > > The early VAX 3100 desktops have those same evil NiCad battery packs. > From ethan at 757.org Thu Nov 19 20:41:53 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 21:41:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Could someone make this topic go away? In-Reply-To: <20151119233753.GD10191@gmail.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029D9C@mail.bensene.com> <280259AF858D42978BDEC00DC3006E4A@deskjara> <20151119233753.GD10191@gmail.com> Message-ID: > That doesn't work for me; perhaps it's because all mail from this list > is already (automatically) archived by a rule I have. I have tons of > rules like that; they apply an appropriate tag and archive the messages, > so I have to navigate into a specific folder to read a group's messages. Am I the only one left using Pine!? I get odd looks when I'm checking email from my cell phone. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 19 17:36:13 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:36:13 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance In-Reply-To: <4DEB59D7DE1344E393BAA1A8AB44EF43@310e2> References: <4DEB59D7DE1344E393BAA1A8AB44EF43@310e2> Message-ID: <014301d12323$13f4c190$3bde44b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stein > Sent: 19 November 2015 22:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Jarratt" > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 4:27 PM > > ... > My to-do list has me doing the rounds of all my machines to check them all for > the batteries. I'd like to replace rather than remove though, but that could get > expensive at about ?10-12 pounds per machine for the cordless phone battery > packs sold by Maplin. Maybe there is a better alternative, I should go and take > a look. > > Regards > > Rob > > ----- Reply ----- > > Wow! I buy mine for $2 to $4 at the local 'Dollar' store... > > Or you could order from the usual place; e.g.: > http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/Battery/1191734_259040387.html > Well, I am in the UK, but I do think I should try to find a cheaper source, I am sure it will exist, I have just been too lazy up to now. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 19 17:57:37 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:57:37 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance In-Reply-To: <6DC1B8D3-B88F-413B-90E2-8D6F1B336EF4@VMSSoftware.com> References: <013f01d12311$0cd84010$2688c030$@ntlworld.com> <6DC1B8D3-B88F-413B-90E2-8D6F1B336EF4@VMSSoftware.com> Message-ID: <014401d12326$11629da0$3427d8e0$@ntlworld.com> Thanks for the suggestion. This is of course entirely for hobbyist purposes, I will look for alternatives here in the UK, but if that fails I will give it a go. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sue > Skonetski > Sent: 19 November 2015 22:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance > > Dear Rob, > > Just an idea Nemonix Engineering (previous employer) does maintenance and > support for PDP, VAX and Alpha. I know that they had new batteries. Not new > in the DEC packaging but newly mad they may be able to do some thing for > you. > > Contact Wayne Beeson and let him know I sent you. > > url is nemonix.com phone is 508-393-7700 > > Coming from a DEC background it was amazing to see this hardware still in > active work. On of my favorites was discussions was around fans. When the > hardware was originally made they did not include sealed fans for general sale > so as the fan got old and slowed down it would gradually heat up the mother > board so folks thought it was a mother board issue, get it replaced and then a > few moths later the fan would break and people would have t replace. > Nemonix did both so it was not an issue just uncomfortable for the customer. > > If there is anything I can do to help please just let me know. > > Warm Regards, > Sue > > > > > On Nov 19, 2015, at 4:27 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> william degnan > >> Sent: 19 November 2015 17:28 > >> To: cctech > >> Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance > >> > >> Performed maintenance of my VAX 4000-200. > >> > >> Removed NiCad battery > > > > > > My to-do list has me doing the rounds of all my machines to check them all > for the batteries. I'd like to replace rather than remove though, but that could > get expensive at about ?10-12 pounds per machine for the cordless phone > battery packs sold by Maplin. Maybe there is a better alternative, I should go > and take a look. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> Replaced hard drive > >> Made new image of system drive > >> > >> The how-to is all over the web, but I summarized a lot of the basic > >> support tasks associated with a networked VAX 4000 here for anyone > >> interested in a simple "for dummies" page > >> > >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=608 > >> > >> The system is hosted here: > >> vax4000.vintagecomputer.net > >> > >> -- > >> Bill > > > > Sue Skonetski > > VP of Customer Advocacy > Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com > Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 > Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 > > > > > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations > From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 22:51:22 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 21:51:22 -0700 Subject: DEC 4260 transistors (MOS clock driver on LSI-11 CPU) Message-ID: Does anyone happen to know what the industry-standard equivalent for a DEC 4260 PNP transistors in the MOS clock driver circuitry on LSI-11 CPU is? Is it a 2N4260? Thanks! Eric From other at oryx.us Fri Nov 20 01:43:26 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:43:26 -0600 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Could someone make the list do the [cctalk] thing in the subject line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564ECF1E.7060101@oryx.us> Been AFK and out of town for a week and just catching up on all my email messages. I'm on a couple of emailing list where the modified subject header is an issue of contention. Not sure why, but the square bracket header thing sure helps me. Everyone else just does this by default. My work around is have procmail add the [square] bracket entry to the header when the email come in. Here is a sample procmail recipe from another mailing list. .......................................... # IPv6 operators forum header :0 fw * ^List-Id:[ ].*\ |/bin/sed -e 's/^Subject:[ ]*/Subject: [IPv6 operators forum] /' .......................................... This works great for me. YMMV. enjoy, Jerry On 11/17/15 09:54 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Hello, > > By any chance could someone configure the mailing list to add [cctalk] or > [cc] or [cct] into the beginning of the subject line? Not looking to filter, > just not looking to delete messages. > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Nov 20 01:27:38 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:27:38 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151120072738.GA80478@beast.freibergnet.de> william degnan wrote: > Performed maintenance of my VAX 4000-200. > > Removed NiCad battery > Replaced hard drive > Made new image of system drive > > The how-to is all over the web, but I summarized a lot of the basic support > tasks associated with a networked VAX 4000 here for anyone interested in a > simple "for dummies" page > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=608 > > The system is hosted here: > vax4000.vintagecomputer.net > > -- > Bill Nice :-) I do own an Vax4000/300, 3 DSSI Disks orginally 2xRF31 amd 1xRF71 32MB RAM, serial Multiplexer, TK70 with controller. In the meantime I'm repalced the RF71 against a RF73 (2 Gig) Drive, installed VMS 7.3 wih TCP/IP, works so far. I had to "repair" an RF31 with a hit of a rubber hammer, the fault light of the drive was on and I've read about the hammer in a post from a guy from the netherlands. The drive was bad anyways..tried it and success!! It seems that the head assembly in the drive gets glued to some rubber bumper in the drive after long storage. Exchanged the nicads against a wireless phone pack to..but they dont hold the charge for a month w/o power. I think I have to better clean the PCB where the nicads are connected to. There where already some greenish salts and I only used an old toothbrush to clean it. Maybe I have to train the nicads on my Imax B6 first .. but they where new. Running the machine 24/7 here in germany is to expensive now. We pay approx 30 Eurocents per kwh..and still raising b'cause our government means that it is a good idea to run photovoltaic power plants near the nord pole.. :-| Last power up and boot was 2 days before now, nicads empty again.. Do have an VS4000/90 and a VS3100/M76 too..Micro-pdp11 stuff too.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Nov 20 03:44:00 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:44:00 +0000 Subject: Front Panel Orders - Special Update Message-ID: <564EEB60.6060503@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Well the original panel arrived yesterday and revealed one or two interesting features. It was from an 8/m but as the underlying programmers console (apart from the change from bulb to LED) is the same for all of versions I am making. Its a good example What it reveals was that they silk screened the panel first then routed or milled out the openings using the markings as a guide. This is the source of much complained of chipping and peeling. This means that they did not have to be too fussy with the placement of the silk screening in relation to the edges of the blank. Any small offset would be hidden by the bezel anyway. in addition there is plenty of tolerance on the key lock - there's provision to adjust its position on the mounting. The hole for the select switch is drilled over size (0.38" for a 0.25" shaft) so more room to move things about In the spirit of "measure twice and cut once" would all those with orders please do the following. Take off the selector switch knob. Remove the bezel and take the old front panel out. Measure from the bottom edge of the panel to the bottom of the row of switch openings. Then from the left hand side to the first switch opening. Finally from the right hand side to the last switch opening. Please send the three measurements with the type of system its off plus any part numbers on the back of the panel to me. Regards Rod From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 20 09:29:30 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 07:29:30 -0800 Subject: Front Panel Orders - Special Update In-Reply-To: <564EEB60.6060503@btinternet.com> References: <564EEB60.6060503@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <564F3C5A.9000600@bitsavers.org> On 11/20/15 1:44 AM, rod wrote: > What it reveals was that they silk screened the panel first then routed > or milled out yes, and I posted that a week ago here when I sent you the scans of one of my panels. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Nov 20 10:04:35 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:04:35 +0000 Subject: Front Panel Orders - Special Update In-Reply-To: <564F3C5A.9000600@bitsavers.org> References: <564EEB60.6060503@btinternet.com> <564F3C5A.9000600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <564F4493.708@btinternet.com> Hi Al Yes thanks for that. The one that came in just confirmed it. I'm trying to find the range of variation. As you know my panels are laser cut which is a much smoother finish and should get rid of the chip and peel problems. This means I screen after cutting at the expense of fitting the artwork to the cutout. That in turn means I need to know where the cutouts are in relation to the panel edges. So three measurements on any existing panel tells me if I can fill the order and have it fit. Finally as the list of measurements builds up I'll know if I need more than one type of blank. So the more sets of measurements I get the better. Rod On 20/11/15 15:29, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/20/15 1:44 AM, rod wrote: > >> What it reveals was that they silk screened the panel first then routed >> or milled out > > yes, and I posted that a week ago here when I sent you the scans of one > of my panels. > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 13:11:20 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:11:20 -0500 Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms References: <20150922142914.E614F18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Chiappa" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 9:29 AM Subject: Re: Query for dec teleprinter roms > > From: Mike Stein > > > I don't think I can scan the print set; IIRC the pages were longer > > than 14". > > How much longer? My A3 scanner will take up to 17". I'd be happy to scan them > for you (and return them afterwards) if you send them to me. > > (BTW, this offer is open to everyone/anyone - although if I get 23 sets of > prints, please don't expect instant service! Please contact me first.) > > Noel ----- Reply ----- As usual, while looking for something else I finally happened to find the LA100 docs and ROMs and I've sent the ROM images to Jonathan separately; the print set is 11" x 17" and I'll contact Noel off-list regarding scanning. MODEL TITLE PART_NO LA100 Field Maintenance Print Set MP-01096-00 LA100 Series Programmer Reference Manual EK-LA100-RG-001 LA100 Series Programmer Reference Manual EK-LA100-RM-001 LA100 Series Technical Manual EK-LA100-TM-001 LP100 Installation Guide EK-LP100-IN-001 LP100 Operator Guide EK-LP100-OP-001 LP100 Operator and Programmer Reference Card EK-LP100-RC-001 LW100 Installation Guide EK-LW100-IN-001 LW100 Operator Guide EK-LW100-OP-001 LAX-34/LA100 LAX34-AL Tractor Option Installation Guide EK-1LA34-IN-001 From fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET Fri Nov 20 13:13:29 2015 From: fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET (Fred) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:13:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 21:41:53 -0500 (EST) > From: ethan at 757.org > Subject: Re: Could someone make this topic go away? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > Am I the only one left using Pine!? > > I get odd looks when I'm checking email from my cell phone. No you are not. I use (al)pine on my OpenVMS system here as well as my main Linux host. I have mail going back to 2004 here and since 1996 at another public access Unix host I use. It's great when I'm out of town and can ssh in from my phone and check the mail. :) Pine does most everything I need without having to worry about malware, phishing, etc ... the beauty of text. Fred From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 20 13:20:06 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 11:20:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Am I the only one left using Pine!? On Fri, 20 Nov 2015, Fred wrote: > No you are not. > I use (al)pine on my OpenVMS system here as well as my main Linux host. I > have mail going back to 2004 here and since 1996 at another public access > Unix host I use. It's great when I'm out of town and can ssh in from my > phone and check the mail. :) Pine does most everything I need without > having to worry about malware, phishing, etc ... the beauty of text. PINE. I also have a gmail account, mostly for forwarding/viewing non-text stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 13:22:44 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:22:44 -0500 Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms In-Reply-To: References: <20150922142914.E614F18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > > As usual, while looking for something else I finally happened to find the > LA100 > docs and ROMs and I've sent the ROM images to Jonathan separately; the > print set > is 11" x 17" and I'll contact Noel off-list regarding scanning. > > I hear you...today looking for something totally unrelated I found an LA30 keyboard. Now I just need to find an LA30... -- Bill From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Nov 20 13:35:44 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:35:44 -0500 Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms Message-ID: <1fddd.2ea0e0cd.4380d010@aol.com> Just a hit . . scanning/printing without having to go to kinkos etc.... to any of you needing something that will print--- nice photos print 11 x 17 scan a tad larger than 11 x 17 fax reasonable price free OCR software built in duplex printing has a bin sheet feeder too for doc size get a hp officejet 7612 I got mine on sale for $160 not a speed demon but a helpful device it is handy. there are times we need to print something larger than legal size for museum displays etc or scan large magazine cover, schematics etc... it has worked well. we use this for pretty much in house use. patrons needing lots of something scanned we have still have to contract with one of our offsite vendors. (shoemakers children analogy etc.) Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 11/20/2015 12:22:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, billdegnan at gmail.com writes: > As usual, while looking for something else I finally happened to find the > LA100 > docs and ROMs and I've sent the ROM images to Jonathan separately; the > print set > is 11" x 17" and I'll contact Noel off-list regarding scanning. > From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 13:39:32 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 13:39:32 -0600 Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Am I the only one left using Pine!? >>> >> On Fri, 20 Nov 2015, Fred wrote: > >> No you are not. >> I use (al)pine on my OpenVMS system here as well as my main Linux host. I >> have mail going back to 2004 here and since 1996 at another public access >> Unix host I use. It's great when I'm out of town and can ssh in from my >> phone and check the mail. :) Pine does most everything I need without >> having to worry about malware, phishing, etc ... the beauty of text. >> > > PINE. > I also have a gmail account, mostly for forwarding/viewing non-text stuff. > I use mutt (text-based) on my laptop, connecting to Gmail via IMAP. When I get non-text stuff I can just hit a key and open it in a browser or picture viewer. It works pretty well, but I wish it didn't take so long to load the headers each time (they're supposed to be cached but it sure takes a while to go to my "All Mail" folder with its 33,000+ messages). I'm considering doing something that actually downloads my Gmail content locally and keeps it in sync periodically, but I haven't really looked at what's necessary for that. One thing I'd love would be a way to change some threads as mutt sees them -- the client has had the ability to associate messages with or disassociate messages from a thread manually for years, but it seems that when I do that, Gmail later reverses my decision. I'm not sure how I could keep synchrony with Gmail *and* have that. -- Eric Christopherson From jason at smbfc.net Fri Nov 20 13:43:16 2015 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 11:43:16 -0800 Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564F77D4.90202@smbfc.net> Demonstrating reading your work mail (hosted by gmail) on a VMS system via pine is totally worth the speechless responses. --Jason On 11/20/2015 11:39 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Am I the only one left using Pine!? >>> On Fri, 20 Nov 2015, Fred wrote: >>> No you are not. >>> I use (al)pine on my OpenVMS system here as well as my main Linux host. I >>> have mail going back to 2004 here and since 1996 at another public access >>> Unix host I use. It's great when I'm out of town and can ssh in from my >>> phone and check the mail. :) Pine does most everything I need without >>> having to worry about malware, phishing, etc ... the beauty of text. >>> >> PINE. >> I also have a gmail account, mostly for forwarding/viewing non-text stuff. >> > I use mutt (text-based) on my laptop, connecting to Gmail via IMAP. When I > get non-text stuff I can just hit a key and open it in a browser or picture > viewer. It works pretty well, but I wish it didn't take so long to load the > headers each time (they're supposed to be cached but it sure takes a while > to go to my "All Mail" folder with its 33,000+ messages). > > I'm considering doing something that actually downloads my Gmail content > locally and keeps it in sync periodically, but I haven't really looked at > what's necessary for that. One thing I'd love would be a way to change some > threads as mutt sees them -- the client has had the ability to associate > messages with or disassociate messages from a thread manually for years, > but it seems that when I do that, Gmail later reverses my decision. I'm not > sure how I could keep synchrony with Gmail *and* have that. From jim at deitygraveyard.com Fri Nov 20 14:15:33 2015 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:15:33 -0500 Subject: MicroVAX 3100, DECservers, etc. available for a couple days Message-ID: Just saw this on the rescue list. I *believe* the location would be North Carolina, US. E-mail them, not me. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Lenore Ramm via TriLUG Date: Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 8:20 PM Subject: [TriLUG] Vintage Hardware (Everything Must Go NOW!) To: Triangle Linux Users Group General Discussion A friend and former TriLUG member is looking for a new home for the MicroVAX 3100 and associated hardware. It lacks drives. It needs to be given away to whomever is willing to take it. The lot includes the drive-less VAX, one DECserver 300, two DECserver 200/MC, a tape drive, and a few other related bits, as pictured in the links below. If you are interested, you must meet to pick it up or provide funds for shipping, before it gets recycled in the next few days. If you are interested, email me (lenore.ramm at gmail.com))(*NOW, before it's too late*) and I will provide contact information. There are pics! http://trilug.org/~eronel/decpics It may or may not have a pleasing amber display. Lenore From other at oryx.us Fri Nov 20 14:35:21 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:35:21 -0600 Subject: Pine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564F8409.5000507@oryx.us> sigh..... I keep meaning to upgrade, probably to alpine, but I'm so attached to elm its hard to move forward. Jerry > >> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 21:41:53 -0500 (EST) >> From: ethan at 757.org >> Am I the only one left using Pine!? >> From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Fri Nov 20 15:50:22 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:50:22 -0600 Subject: Could someone make this topic go away? In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029D9C@mail.bensene.com> <280259AF858D42978BDEC00DC3006E4A@deskjara> <20151119233753.GD10191@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151120215022.GA18272@RawFedDogs.net> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 09:41:53PM -0500, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Am I the only one left using Pine!? I used to use Pine, and used Alpine for a while. I'm currently using mutt. > I get odd looks when I'm checking email from my cell phone. My cell phone is nice for many things, but I find even the iPhone 6+ to be a suboptimal device for e-mail. I prefer a PC with a full sized keyboard. Actually, the keyboard on my PC at home is a buckling spring keyboard that looks like an IBM 5250 keyboard. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Nov 20 16:06:45 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 22:06:45 +0000 (WET) Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms Message-ID: <01PTCPVRPSFA00AA8M@beyondthepale.ie> > > Just a hit . . scanning/printing without having to go to kinkos etc.... > to any of you needing something that will > > print--- nice photos > print 11 x 17 > scan a tad larger than 11 x 17 > fax > reasonable price > free OCR software > built in duplex printing > has a bin sheet feeder too for doc size > > get a hp officejet 7612 > > I got mine on sale for $160 > > not a speed demon but a helpful device > it is handy. there are times we need to print something larger than > legal size for museum displays etc or scan large magazine cover, > schematics etc... it has worked well. > > we use this for pretty much in house use. > > patrons needing lots of something scanned we have still have to > contract with one of our offsite vendors. > (shoemakers children analogy etc.) > > Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC > Are you formatting your outgoing emails like this in retaliation for not getting [cctech]/[cctalk] in the subject line in order to be able to sort your incoming AOL mail? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cube1 at charter.net Fri Nov 20 16:33:23 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:33:23 -0600 Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms In-Reply-To: <01PTCPVRPSFA00AA8M@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PTCPVRPSFA00AA8M@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: I dunno about Ed, but my usual email client (Thunderbird) does that if you use plain text, and I haven't seen where to fix it. It is indeed annoying - for the sender, too. On Nov 20, 2015, at 16:06, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> >> Just a hit . . scanning/printing without having to go to kinkos etc.... >> to any of you needing something that will >> >> print--- nice photos >> print 11 x 17 >> scan a tad larger than 11 x 17 >> fax >> reasonable price >> free OCR software >> built in duplex printing >> has a bin sheet feeder too for doc size >> >> get a hp officejet 7612 >> >> I got mine on sale for $160 >> >> not a speed demon but a helpful device >> it is handy. there are times we need to print something larger than >> legal size for museum displays etc or scan large magazine cover, >> schematics etc... it has worked well. >> >> we use this for pretty much in house use. >> >> patrons needing lots of something scanned we have still have to >> contract with one of our offsite vendors. >> (shoemakers children analogy etc.) >> >> Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC > > Are you formatting your outgoing emails like this in retaliation for not > getting [cctech]/[cctalk] in the subject line in order to be able to sort > your incoming AOL mail? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 20 13:06:01 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 11:06:01 -0800 Subject: Front Panel Orders - Special Update In-Reply-To: <564F4493.708@btinternet.com> References: <564EEB60.6060503@btinternet.com> <564F3C5A.9000600@bitsavers.org> <564F4493.708@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <564F6F19.2050102@bitsavers.org> On 11/20/15 8:04 AM, rod wrote: > > So the more sets of measurements I get the better. > OK, will check the panels I have and send the pn/demensions to you An interesting delema I noticed is the milling cut off some of the vertical white lines around the paddle switches. So should the repro do the same, if so, where, since the milling moves relative to the silk screen From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 13:35:35 2015 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?St=C3=A9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:35:35 +0100 Subject: Gene Amdahl, Pioneer of Mainframe Computing, Dies at 92 Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/13/technology/gene-amdahl-pioneer-of-mainframe-computing-dies-at-92.html?_r=2 -- Stephane From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 13:35:35 2015 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?St=C3=A9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:35:35 +0100 Subject: Gene Amdahl, Pioneer of Mainframe Computing, Dies at 92 Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/13/technology/gene-amdahl-pioneer-of-mainframe-computing-dies-at-92.html?_r=2 -- Stephane From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Nov 20 16:44:18 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 22:44:18 +0000 Subject: Front Panel Orders - Special Update In-Reply-To: <564F6F19.2050102@bitsavers.org> References: <564EEB60.6060503@btinternet.com> <564F3C5A.9000600@bitsavers.org> <564F4493.708@btinternet.com> <564F6F19.2050102@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <564FA242.6070006@btinternet.com> Hi Al The designs of the 8/e and the 8/f 8/m differ. On an 8/e panel in the switch area you have a pair of lines running round three sides of the each switch cutout. Or at least you would have if the area had not been removed. So you end up with two lines at the top left changing to one where the cutout is and back to two on the other side. If you check all of the sources (and I did) of 8/e front panel pictures and drawings it becomes apparent that what was intended was where the the inner of the two lines is not present due to the cutout there should be a one line widths space of unprinted plastic before you encounter the remaining white line. In other words there's a one lines thickness gap between the lines. This looks better and stops the end switch scraping the white line. So my types 8/e A and B include this feature. The 8/m panel I have in front of me does not have this feature. There is a single white line all of which is removed in the cutout area. It also differs in several other ways as well. So my reproduction panels have to follow the original designs. Regards Rod On 20/11/15 19:06, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 11/20/15 8:04 AM, rod wrote: >> >> So the more sets of measurements I get the better. >> > > OK, will check the panels I have and send the pn/demensions to you > > An interesting delema I noticed is the milling cut off some of the > vertical white lines around the paddle switches. So should the repro > do the same, if so, where, since the milling moves relative to the > silk screen > > > > > From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Fri Nov 20 17:58:10 2015 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:58:10 -0700 (MST) Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: <564F77D4.90202@smbfc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Nov 2015, Jason Howe wrote: > Demonstrating reading your work mail (hosted by gmail) on a VMS system > via pine is totally worth the speechless responses. I am reading this with Pine on my VMS Alphaserver 4100 as usual. I did not know that alpine was available for VMS, I will have to look into that. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 20 18:07:42 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 19:07:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201511210007.TAA25189@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Demonstrating reading your work mail (hosted by gmail) on a VMS >> system via pine is totally worth the speechless responses. :-) > I am reading this with Pine [...] While I don't actually use pine, I do read my mail using text-only tools that are completely MIME-blind. (I do have tools that do things like extract attached images. They are, however, not part of my routine mail-reading flow.) Whether this counts me on the "yes" or "no" side, of course, depends on exactly why you care. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 20 18:54:12 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:54:12 +0000 Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms In-Reply-To: References: <01PTCPVRPSFA00AA8M@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <564FC0B4.4030405@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/11/2015 22:33, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I dunno about Ed, but my usual email client (Thunderbird) does that > if you use plain text, and I haven't seen where to fix it. It is > indeed annoying - for the sender, too. Thunderbird doesn't do that for me, but you could try using the rewrap command? > On Nov 20, 2015, at 16:06, Peter Coghlan > wrote: > >>> >>> Just a hit . . scanning/printing without having to go to kinkos >>> etc.... to any of you needing something that will >>> >>> print--- nice photos print 11 x 17 scan a tad larger than 11 x >>> 17 fax reasonable price free OCR software built in duplex >>> printing has a bin sheet feeder too for doc size >>> >>> get a hp officejet 7612 >>> >>> I got mine on sale for $160 >>> >>> not a speed demon but a helpful device it is handy. there are >>> times we need to print something larger than legal size for >>> museum displays etc or scan large magazine cover, >>> schematics etc... it has worked well. >>> >>> we use this for pretty much in house use. >>> >>> patrons needing lots of something scanned we have still have >>> to contract with one of our offsite vendors. (shoemakers >>> children analogy etc.) >>> >>> Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC >> >> Are you formatting your outgoing emails like this in retaliation >> for not getting [cctech]/[cctalk] in the subject line in order to >> be able to sort your incoming AOL mail? >> >> Regards, Peter Coghlan. -- Pete From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 20 18:58:18 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:58:18 +0000 Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564FC1AA.70105@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/11/2015 19:39, Eric Christopherson wrote: > I'm considering doing something that actually downloads my Gmail content > locally and keeps it in sync periodically, but I haven't really looked at > what's necessary for that. You could use fetchmail to snarf it and any IMAP server to make it available as you like - I use UW imapd, which is pretty lightweight. -- Pete From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 20 20:24:44 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:24:44 -0800 Subject: Pine In-Reply-To: <564FC1AA.70105@dunnington.plus.com> References: <564FC1AA.70105@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <564FD5EC.8090205@sydex.com> On 11/20/2015 04:58 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 20/11/2015 19:39, Eric Christopherson wrote: > >> I'm considering doing something that actually downloads my Gmail >> content locally and keeps it in sync periodically, but I haven't >> really looked at what's necessary for that. > > You could use fetchmail to snarf it and any IMAP server to make it > available as you like - I use UW imapd, which is pretty lightweight. I do that with both gmail and yahoo mail. Yahoo only offers IMAP for free, not POP. That's okay--except when you have a connectivity issue with Yahoo and your mail vanishes until it returns. Yahoo offers POP, but I believe that they want their palm crossed with silver for it. True? --Chuck From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 21:05:56 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 21:05:56 -0600 Subject: Pine (was: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 17, Issue 20) In-Reply-To: <564FC1AA.70105@dunnington.plus.com> References: <564FC1AA.70105@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20151121030556.GE10191@gmail.com> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 20/11/2015 19:39, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > >I'm considering doing something that actually downloads my Gmail content > >locally and keeps it in sync periodically, but I haven't really looked at > >what's necessary for that. > > You could use fetchmail to snarf it and any IMAP server to make it available > as you like - I use UW imapd, which is pretty lightweight. True, but my concern is that if I made changes in my local copy to better suit me, the official Gmail copy would eventually conflict with it pretty badly. I admit I haven't investigated the issue, though. -- Eric Christopherson From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 20 21:16:47 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 21:16:47 -0600 Subject: HP 7914 Message-ID: <000001d1240b$0efac250$2cf046f0$@classiccmp.org> I have a board from a HP 7914 disc drive (07914-60001). No clue how I obtained it, as I've never owned a 7914 (but did have a hard luck case 7912, which is long gone). In any case... free for shipping if anyone wants it. J From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 23:08:47 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:08:47 -0600 Subject: MCBA COBOL/DIBOL App Docs Message-ID: Oh dear, look at all this COBOL (and DIBOL, too.) This is pretty dry stuff, folks. But there isn't much out there from this vendor, so here it is: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/MCBA Free to add to your collection, as always. I have some 9-track tapes that may or may not contain some MCBA software, as well, which I'll get to someday. -j From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 23:30:34 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:30:34 -0500 Subject: MCBA COBOL/DIBOL App Docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 12:08 AM, Jason T wrote: > Oh dear, look at all this COBOL (and DIBOL, too.) This is pretty dry > stuff, folks. But there isn't much out there from this vendor, so > here it is: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/MCBA > > Free to add to your collection, as always. > > I have some 9-track tapes that may or may not contain some MCBA > software, as well, which I'll get to someday. > > -j > Nice. -- Bill From simski at dds.nl Sat Nov 21 03:27:50 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:27:50 +0100 Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms In-Reply-To: <01PTCPVRPSFA00AA8M@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PTCPVRPSFA00AA8M@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <56503916.9080902@dds.nl> I am very curious as what you are talking about. Is it something with html in mail? I configured thunderbird to only show me plain text so I can focus on the content and not some graphic noise. simon On 20-11-15 23:06, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> >> Just a hit . . scanning/printing without having to go to kinkos etc.... >> to any of you needing something that will >> >> print--- nice photos >> print 11 x 17 >> scan a tad larger than 11 x 17 >> fax >> reasonable price >> free OCR software >> built in duplex printing >> has a bin sheet feeder too for doc size >> >> get a hp officejet 7612 >> >> I got mine on sale for $160 >> >> not a speed demon but a helpful device >> it is handy. there are times we need to print something larger than >> legal size for museum displays etc or scan large magazine cover, >> schematics etc... it has worked well. >> >> we use this for pretty much in house use. >> >> patrons needing lots of something scanned we have still have to >> contract with one of our offsite vendors. >> (shoemakers children analogy etc.) >> >> Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC >> > > Are you formatting your outgoing emails like this in retaliation for not > getting [cctech]/[cctalk] in the subject line in order to be able to sort > your incoming AOL mail? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Nov 21 04:54:07 2015 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:54:07 +0000 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers Message-ID: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> Hi there, I'm working on reverse engineering a radio navigation receiver (surprisingly not GPS, something else... Datatrak if anyone's heard of it) for the purpose of either repurposing the hardware or building up some kind of demo rig. A lot of my effort at the moment seems to be identifying C Library functions and naming them. Ideally, I'd like to identify the compiler and CLib and feed that into the disassembler to eliminate that work. Does anyone know which 68000 compilers were available in 1993, and which could produce ROM code? Or a few? I've looked at Aztec C68K but ruled it out on the basis that the _strlen library function doesn't match up -- this is the one from the ROM: _strlen: movea.l 4(sp), a0 move.l a0, d0 _strlen_l001: tst.b (a0+) bne.s _strlen_l001 sub.l a0, d0 not.l d0 rts Aztec is identical up to the bne, then: sub.l d0, a0 move.l a0, d0 sub,l #1, d0 rts Which is one instruction longer... so it's not Aztec. Other parts of the system apparently used VME-bus modules... so this wasn't a small operation. Anyway, whatever compiler this is, it pulls in Motorola's Fast Floating Point library. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 03:38:20 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 04:38:20 -0500 Subject: Looking for an IBM manual PDF Message-ID: Hello all, I'm looking for a PDF copy of IBM manual GC26-3792-8. The System Generation manual for MVS 3.8; the only PDF I found of GC26-3792 is of the -1 version, which is not particularly helpful. I found a DjVu of the manual (via this site: ) namely here: Unfortunately, downloading the DjVu file does nothing (SumatraPDF on Windows can't render any of the pages, and Evince on Debian 8.2.0 just ignores the file); the Java applet to view it works... except it doesn't play nice with my accessibility needs. So, anyone have a PDF of that manual? Cheers, Christian From chd at chdickman.com Sat Nov 21 08:04:37 2015 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:04:37 -0500 Subject: 11/70 front panel colors In-Reply-To: <5648FFAC.4040402@btinternet.com> References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <56488BD7.8060003@btinternet.com> <5648916D.90002@compsys.to> <5648C43E.2030102@btinternet.com> <5648CA0D.8030105@bitsavers.org> <5648FFAC.4040402@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Here is my attempt to convert the DEC Standard 092 color specifications to RGB http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/ No Wild Rose on the list, but there is a Brite Rose. On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 4:57 PM, rod wrote: > > Thanks Al > Well they say you never stop leaning and I did not know that. > Rod > > > > On 15/11/15 18:08, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 11/15/15 9:43 AM, rod wrote: >> >>> Right now back to 11/70 front panels. Anybody know what the colours are >>> called? >> >> >> Magenta and Wild Rose >> >> > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Nov 21 08:14:19 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 08:14:19 -0600 Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms In-Reply-To: <56503916.9080902@dds.nl> References: <01PTCPVRPSFA00AA8M@beyondthepale.ie> <56503916.9080902@dds.nl> Message-ID: <6E8ADE94-0527-44F0-9C9F-BD36E85B7511@charter.net> Basically, I expect that the complaint is that the lines have extraneous forced new lines in them instead of just flowing and letting the recipients email client take care of it. I use Thunderbird and noticed this behavior but I don't yet know how to fix it either. Sent from my iPad > On Nov 21, 2015, at 03:27, simon wrote: > > I am very curious as what you are talking about. Is it something with html in mail? I configured thunderbird to only show me plain text so I can focus on the content and not some graphic noise. > > > simon > On 20-11-15 23:06, Peter Coghlan wrote: >>> >>> Just a hit . . scanning/printing without having to go to kinkos etc.... >>> to any of you needing something that will >>> >>> print--- nice photos >>> print 11 x 17 >>> scan a tad larger than 11 x 17 >>> fax >>> reasonable price >>> free OCR software >>> built in duplex printing >>> has a bin sheet feeder too for doc size >>> >>> get a hp officejet 7612 >>> >>> I got mine on sale for $160 >>> >>> not a speed demon but a helpful device >>> it is handy. there are times we need to print something larger than >>> legal size for museum displays etc or scan large magazine cover, >>> schematics etc... it has worked well. >>> >>> we use this for pretty much in house use. >>> >>> patrons needing lots of something scanned we have still have to >>> contract with one of our offsite vendors. >>> (shoemakers children analogy etc.) >>> >>> Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC >> >> Are you formatting your outgoing emails like this in retaliation for not >> getting [cctech]/[cctalk] in the subject line in order to be able to sort >> your incoming AOL mail? >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan. > > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 21 08:47:23 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:47:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms In-Reply-To: <6E8ADE94-0527-44F0-9C9F-BD36E85B7511@charter.net> References: <01PTCPVRPSFA00AA8M@beyondthepale.ie> <56503916.9080902@dds.nl> <6E8ADE94-0527-44F0-9C9F-BD36E85B7511@charter.net> Message-ID: <201511211447.JAA27714@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Basically, I expect that the complaint is that the lines have extraneous for$ Actually, speaking personally, that is less relevant than the irregular spacing - and even that is not really much of a problem, not nearly as much of an annoyance as multi-hundred-character lines the recipient is expected to add line-breaks to but which are not marked as reflowable. (If you want the recipient to reflow text, RFC3676 is your friend.) Mouse From wulfman at wulfman.com Sat Nov 21 09:16:21 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 08:16:21 -0700 Subject: Emulation Message-ID: <56508AC5.8060504@wulfman.com> I know most of you have or are searching for the real thing. But for those of you that still don't have what your looking for, the arcade emulator MAME has now included most old computers in their emulation program. I have seen everything from apple computers to vax systems, while searching for game roms. Most are still non functioning as of this version but they are working on making them work. one that does work is a pdp1. http://mamedev.org/ emulator http://www.mameui.info/ windows gui front end http://retroroms.net most current list of roms in the download section, free reg required I have been collecting roms for years for repair of my huge collection of game board but this is the first time i have seen the retro computers in the rom sets. maybe if they are in need of a rom dump for some obscure computer one of you have you can contribute to the scene by dumping and sending the rom they are looking for. As always happy retro computing. -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Nov 21 09:54:32 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:54:32 +0000 Subject: 11/70 front panel colors In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <56488BD7.8060003@btinternet.com> <5648916D.90002@compsys.to> <5648C43E.2030102@btinternet.com> <5648CA0D.8030105@bitsavers.org> <5648FFAC.4040402@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <565093B8.7020109@btinternet.com> Thank you Charles Most kind. Busy getting ready for the first run of 8/e A and B next week. Rod On 21/11/15 14:04, Charles Dickman wrote: > Here is my attempt to convert the DEC Standard 092 color specifications to RGB > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/ > > No Wild Rose on the list, but there is a Brite Rose. > > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 4:57 PM, rod wrote: >> Thanks Al >> Well they say you never stop leaning and I did not know that. >> Rod >> >> >> >> On 15/11/15 18:08, Al Kossow wrote: >>> On 11/15/15 9:43 AM, rod wrote: >>> >>>> Right now back to 11/70 front panels. Anybody know what the colours are >>>> called? >>> >>> Magenta and Wild Rose >>> >>> From ray at arachelian.com Sat Nov 21 09:55:36 2015 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:55:36 -0500 Subject: Emulation In-Reply-To: <56508AC5.8060504@wulfman.com> References: <56508AC5.8060504@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <565093F8.2030102@arachelian.com> On 11/21/2015 10:16 AM, wulfman wrote: > I know most of you have or are searching for the real thing. > But for those of you that still don't have what your looking for, the arcade > emulator MAME has now included most old computers in their emulation > program. What you really want is the MESS project, http://www.mess.org/ - which is part of MAME and has retro computer emulators. From markwgreen at rogers.com Sat Nov 21 10:09:46 2015 From: markwgreen at rogers.com (Mark Green) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 11:09:46 -0500 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <000001d12477$0ba1b430$22e51c90$@rogers.com> When I was doing 68K development work in the 1990s we used the GNU C compiler to cross compile. It was a popular choice, so you might want to give it a try. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philip Pemberton Sent: November 21, 2015 5:54 AM To: cctalk Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers Hi there, I'm working on reverse engineering a radio navigation receiver (surprisingly not GPS, something else... Datatrak if anyone's heard of it) for the purpose of either repurposing the hardware or building up some kind of demo rig. A lot of my effort at the moment seems to be identifying C Library functions and naming them. Ideally, I'd like to identify the compiler and CLib and feed that into the disassembler to eliminate that work. Does anyone know which 68000 compilers were available in 1993, and which could produce ROM code? Or a few? I've looked at Aztec C68K but ruled it out on the basis that the _strlen library function doesn't match up -- this is the one from the ROM: _strlen: movea.l 4(sp), a0 move.l a0, d0 _strlen_l001: tst.b (a0+) bne.s _strlen_l001 sub.l a0, d0 not.l d0 rts Aztec is identical up to the bne, then: sub.l d0, a0 move.l a0, d0 sub,l #1, d0 rts Which is one instruction longer... so it's not Aztec. Other parts of the system apparently used VME-bus modules... so this wasn't a small operation. Anyway, whatever compiler this is, it pulls in Motorola's Fast Floating Point library. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 21 10:31:53 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 08:31:53 -0800 Subject: MCBA COBOL/DIBOL App Docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56509C79.2030703@sydex.com> On 11/20/2015 09:08 PM, Jason T wrote: > Oh dear, look at all this COBOL (and DIBOL, too.) This is pretty dry > stuff, folks. But there isn't much out there from this vendor, so > here it is: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/MCBA > > Free to add to your collection, as always. > > I have some 9-track tapes that may or may not contain some MCBA > software, as well, which I'll get to someday. MCBA is still very much in business, FWIW. I've got the source to the usual business apps (AP/AR/GL/Payroll,Inventory...) done in BASIC. I don't know of MCBA's policy on redistributing this stuff--so I don't bother with it. --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 10:41:57 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 11:41:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Brian Brikon diskette drive tester Message-ID: I purchased one of these units on eBay and it seems to be working - modulo a few early-80s tantalum caps that went up in smoke. The tester relies on an attached printer to record test results, which are displayed only fleetingly on the front-panel display. Unfortunately it did not come with the printer and I cannot find any information on line. Does anyone have information on this? Is it serial? Parallel? The onnector is a 20-pin, 0.1" DIP header on the rear panel. The tester supplies printer power on a small 3-pin Molex connector. I can probably trace this out on the internal logic board, but thought perhaps another list member owns one of these and can elaborate. I'm also trying to find the manual appropriate to a base Model 723 tester. The one floating around on the net is for an upscale model (723-4M). While there are a number of similarities, I'm running into just enough behavioral difference to make it worth finding the correct docs. There's also a programming and setup "worksheet" document that has not surfaced anywhere. -- From ray at arachelian.com Sat Nov 21 10:51:59 2015 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 11:51:59 -0500 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> On 11/21/2015 05:54 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi there, > > I'm working on reverse engineering a radio navigation receiver > (surprisingly not GPS, something else... Datatrak if anyone's heard of > it) for the purpose of either repurposing the hardware or building up > some kind of demo rig. > > A lot of my effort at the moment seems to be identifying C Library > functions and naming them. Ideally, I'd like to identify the compiler > and CLib and feed that into the disassembler to eliminate that work. > > Does anyone know which 68000 compilers were available in 1993, and which > could produce ROM code? Or a few? > On the Mac side there was Sesame C, a shareware compiler, not sure if it could produce ROM code, and ofc Think C. It's probably unlikely that these were used on the DataTrak. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 21 10:56:20 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 08:56:20 -0800 Subject: Emulation In-Reply-To: <56508AC5.8060504@wulfman.com> References: <56508AC5.8060504@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <5650A234.9070202@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/15 7:16 AM, wulfman wrote: > I have been collecting roms for years for repair of my huge collection > of game board > but this is the first time i have seen the retro computers in the rom sets. > There were two independent projects, MAME and MESS. MESS was merged with MAME recently to make core code merges easier. Since most of the non-encrypted arcade games have been simulated, more and more effort is going into preserving pretty much anything the developers are interested in that has a CPU. A lot of work has been going on improving 68K Macintosh and IBM PC simulators. A lot of the public-facing discussions go on at http://forums.bannister.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=1&page=1 --al (mamedev since the mid-90's) From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 21 11:01:09 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:01:09 -0800 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <000001d12477$0ba1b430$22e51c90$@rogers.com> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <000001d12477$0ba1b430$22e51c90$@rogers.com> Message-ID: <5650A355.5010906@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/15 8:09 AM, Mark Green wrote: > Does anyone know which 68000 compilers were available in 1993, and which could produce ROM code? Or a few? > In the embedded space, Alcyon and Green Hills Metrowerks maybe. I'm more familiar with their CodeWarrior Mac product. They were bought out by Motorola. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 21 10:37:00 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 08:37:00 -0800 Subject: HP 7914 In-Reply-To: <000001d1240b$0efac250$2cf046f0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d1240b$0efac250$2cf046f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56509DAC.5010609@bitsavers.org> On 11/20/15 7:16 PM, Jay West wrote: > I have a board from a HP 7914 disc drive (07914-60001). No clue how I > obtained it, as I've never owned a 7914 (but did have a hard luck case 7912, > which is long gone). In any case... free for shipping if anyone wants it. > > J > > There are a bunch of 7912/4 boards on eBay right now. I picked up one that had a CPU to dump the firmware since I've never seen one. I'm guessing the guy had a bunch and scrapped them for the gold. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 21 10:47:03 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 08:47:03 -0800 Subject: Looking for an IBM manual PDF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5650A007.3040608@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/15 1:38 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Unfortunately, downloading the DjVu file does nothing and Firefox reports it as a web forgery. If someone can find real djvu files for those manuals, I will convert them to pdf and put them on bitsavers. Any site that requires you to start java and use their djvu web applet is concentrated evil. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 21 10:48:13 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 08:48:13 -0800 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <5650A04D.8040004@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/15 2:54 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Which is one instruction longer... so it's not Aztec. > Alcyon was popular. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 21 11:29:18 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:29:18 -0800 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> On 11/21/2015 08:51 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On the Mac side there was Sesame C, a shareware compiler, not sure if > it could produce ROM code, and ofc Think C. It's probably unlikely > that these were used on the DataTrak. Let's not forget the VersaDOS/EXORmacs platforms. That's where I did my 80's 68K work. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 21 11:40:42 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:40:42 -0800 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5650AC9A.6030409@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/15 9:29 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Let's not forget the VersaDOS/EXORmacs platforms. That's where I did my 80's 68K work. > Arg, totally forgot to include the HP 64000 and Tek 8560 development systems though I'm blanking right now on if they did their own or sold third-party C compilers. From drb at msu.edu Sat Nov 21 11:43:23 2015 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 12:43:23 -0500 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:54:07 +0000.) <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20151121174323.BDE66A5861D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Does anyone know which 68000 compilers were available in 1993, and > which could produce ROM code? Or a few? There are a few listed here: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/motorola/68k-chips-faq/ De From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Nov 21 12:44:49 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 13:44:49 -0500 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <5650AC9A.6030409@bitsavers.org> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> <5650AC9A.6030409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <17D3A337-7C47-4858-A1AD-6831D24D25FC@comcast.net> > On Nov 21, 2015, at 12:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/21/15 9:29 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Let's not forget the VersaDOS/EXORmacs platforms. That's where I did my 80's 68K work. >> > > Arg, totally forgot to include the HP 64000 and Tek 8560 development systems though I'm > blanking right now on if they did their own or sold third-party C compilers. Third party, I believe. I used one of those for a 68040 (developing the DECbridge 900). I think the compiler was Green Hills. GCC was around, I think, but that isn't the one we used as far as I remember. paul From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 12:57:52 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 12:57:52 -0600 Subject: MCBA COBOL/DIBOL App Docs In-Reply-To: <56509C79.2030703@sydex.com> References: <56509C79.2030703@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > MCBA is still very much in business, FWIW. I've got the source to the usual You know, I googled around with their name and various search terms and never bothered to just go to mcba.com. It looks like their only current product is called Quantum, with much the same functions as the stuff I scanned. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 21 13:38:24 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 11:38:24 -0800 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <17D3A337-7C47-4858-A1AD-6831D24D25FC@comcast.net> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> <5650AC9A.6030409@bitsavers.org> <17D3A337-7C47-4858-A1AD-6831D24D25FC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5650C830.7050302@bitsavers.org> On 11/21/15 10:44 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> Arg, totally forgot to include the HP 64000 and Tek 8560 development systems though I'm >> blanking right now on if they did their own or sold third-party C compilers. > > Third party, I believe. I used one of those for a 68040 (developing the DECbridge 900). I think the compiler was Green Hills. GCC was around, I think, but that isn't the one we used as far as I remember. > > paul > It would have been impossible to use GCC on the 8560, it was a V7 PDP-11 Unix. The 64000 processor is pretty much the same as the HP 9845. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 14:34:12 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:34:12 -0500 Subject: 11/70 front panel colors In-Reply-To: References: <564103FC.1050502@charter.net> <56426B3A.1020106@charter.net> <56427627.5000107@bitsavers.org> <56455C93.5070508@compsys.to> <000901d11dc6$91ed8e90$b5c8abb0$@classiccmp.org> <5605B475-0A31-4891-893B-9711E87B65D9@nf6x.net> <5647B896.2090306@update.uu.se> <5647C076.70602@btinternet.com> <0EAE0E51-FB4F-4580-B6C5-92A28DDFABE1@comcast.net> <5648840B.5070507@update.uu.se> <56488BD7.8060003@btinternet.com> <5648916D.90002@compsys.to> <5648C43E.2030102@btinternet.com> <5648CA0D.8030105@bitsavers.org> <5648FFAC.4040402@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 21 November 2015 at 09:04, Charles Dickman wrote: > Here is my attempt to convert the DEC Standard 092 color specifications to RGB > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/ > > No Wild Rose on the list, but there is a Brite Rose. > A possible slight correction for your list. Pantone Process Blue is 0, 133, 207 (X'0082CA'). Basing this off of the Pantone Solid Coated colour library in Adobe Photoshop CC2015. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 16:13:27 2015 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 17:13:27 -0500 Subject: Gene Amdahl, Pioneer of Mainframe Computing, Dies at 92 Message-ID: Stephan, referring to the article in The New York Times, mentions Amdal, Cray and Wozniak: Pioneers in computing whether large, super-large or small(micro). Who knows of, in the microcomputing world, Amdahl and Cray? One wonders! Happy computing, Murray :) From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Nov 21 16:23:57 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 17:23:57 -0500 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <5650C830.7050302@bitsavers.org> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> <5650AC9A.6030409@bitsavers.org> <17D3A337-7C47-4858-A1AD-6831D24D25FC@comcast.net> <5650C830.7050302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Nov 21, 2015, at 2:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > On 11/21/15 10:44 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >>> Arg, totally forgot to include the HP 64000 and Tek 8560 development systems though I'm >>> blanking right now on if they did their own or sold third-party C compilers. >> >> Third party, I believe. I used one of those for a 68040 (developing the DECbridge 900). I think the compiler was Green Hills. GCC was around, I think, but that isn't the one we used as far as I remember. >> >> paul >> > > It would have been impossible to use GCC on the 8560, it was a V7 PDP-11 Unix. The 64000 processor is pretty much the same as the HP 9845. Ok, I may be mixing up my model numbers. We had a logic analyzer as part of our dev system, either HP or Tek, I don't remember. But the compiling was done on VMS, I'm pretty sure. Either that, or Digital Unix. paul From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 19:40:52 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 19:40:52 -0600 Subject: Looking for an IBM manual PDF In-Reply-To: <5650A007.3040608@bitsavers.org> References: <5650A007.3040608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Nov 21, 2015 10:47 AM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > > On 11/21/15 1:38 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > >> Unfortunately, downloading the DjVu file does nothing > > > and Firefox reports it as a web forgery. > > If someone can find real djvu files for those manuals, I will > convert them to pdf and put them on bitsavers. > > Any site that requires you to start java and use their djvu > web applet is concentrated evil. FWIW, Christian's message is shown in Gmail along with a warning that "similar" messages (similar how?) are often phishing attempts. > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 21:13:34 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 03:13:34 +0000 Subject: ICL Quattro In-Reply-To: <1447312855.2540.11.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <1447312855.2540.11.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: Might be worth trying the UK tnmoc guys. They have lots of ICL docs. Sorry its cryptic but travelling with limited web access.... On Nov 12, 2015 12:51 PM, "supervinx" wrote: > Hi! > I found an ICL Quattro desktop computer. > It looks in good shape, I had to repair only the PSU. > Powering it up, I see disk activity, but I haven't his (proprietary?) > monitor. > On the back, I see a bunch of serial ports (DCE? DTE?) and a DB15 > connector, I guess for monitor/kbd attachment. > I tried to connect a terminal to the serial ports, with null modem and > straight settings, but I had no answers. > Do someone have some infos about the proprietary monitor/kbd port? > Can it be run without the original monitor/kbd system? > Or should I think about it as a... doorstopper? :D > > Thanks! > -- > Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) > > --==ooOoo==-- > My computer collection: > http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum > > --==ooOoo==-- > You can reach me at: > www.supervinx.com > www.facebook.com/supervinx > http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx > http://www.myspace.com/supervinx > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 21:19:09 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 03:19:09 +0000 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> Message-ID: Most browsers can be hijacked via DNS or IP address stealing. Thats how much public access wifi works. Any attempt to access any page diverts to a login page. On Nov 14, 2015 12:05 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 11/13/2015 09:29 AM, ben wrote: > > Windows new feature ... Auto Click >> Sigh. >> > > Oh, I don't know if that's a new feature. I recall getting a DSL modem > and getting instructions to bring up Internet Explorer after the ethernet > cable had been connected to my computer. > > Well, I don't normally use Windows, but I have a couple of systems with XP > installed, so I dragged them out and plugged in the modem. I brought up > IE8 without keying in a URL and viewed the display "Configuring your modem" > was the message along with the pretty colors of the modem sender. > > Holy cow! It didn't even ask if I wanted to point the browser at the > configuration page. Shades of COFEE. Does anyone else think that this is > a great feature and not a security hole? > > --Chuck > > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 21:48:38 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 22:48:38 -0500 Subject: Looking for an IBM manual PDF In-Reply-To: References: <5650A007.3040608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 21 November 2015 at 20:40, Eric Christopherson wrote: > FWIW, Christian's message is shown in Gmail along with a warning that > "similar" messages (similar how?) are often phishing attempts. > Porbably because URLs were in the e-mail, I would guess. ...And now I'm probably in a spam list. So that's fun. Also, I'd like to send my thanks out to Jim Stephens who found both a better link to the manuals, and more importantly a way to get the DjVu files to PDF. Thank you kindly! Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 00:14:45 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 00:14:45 -0600 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015, Dave Wade wrote: > Most browsers can be hijacked via DNS or IP address stealing. Thats how > much public access wifi works. Any attempt to access any page diverts to a > login page. True enough. When I first read Chuck's message I misunderstood and thought he meant that IE opened the page even though it was configured to open a blank page on startup; but I guess I was just assuming that since that's *my* preference for new pages. My ISP injects into web pages a helpful heads-up message if your account is overdue. My work's network always prompts for a login unless you've already logged in within some amount of time; I just reported to their IT that this redirection doesn't work with any https: URL -- you just get a thing saying the page can't be opened. With more pages being https now, and major browsers being programmed to automatically try https before http, this is a little annoying; unfortunately they told me this was a shortcoming of the Cisco stuff they use, and they have no way of fixing it. > On Nov 14, 2015 12:05 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > On 11/13/2015 09:29 AM, ben wrote: > > > > Windows new feature ... Auto Click > >> Sigh. > >> > > > > Oh, I don't know if that's a new feature. I recall getting a DSL modem > > and getting instructions to bring up Internet Explorer after the ethernet > > cable had been connected to my computer. > > > > Well, I don't normally use Windows, but I have a couple of systems with XP > > installed, so I dragged them out and plugged in the modem. I brought up > > IE8 without keying in a URL and viewed the display "Configuring your modem" > > was the message along with the pretty colors of the modem sender. > > > > Holy cow! It didn't even ask if I wanted to point the browser at the > > configuration page. Shades of COFEE. Does anyone else think that this is > > a great feature and not a security hole? > > > > --Chuck > > > > -- Eric Christopherson From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 00:19:04 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 00:19:04 -0600 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes they do buy the new merackie gear idiots On Nov 22, 2015 12:14 AM, "Eric Christopherson" wrote: > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015, Dave Wade wrote: > > Most browsers can be hijacked via DNS or IP address stealing. Thats how > > much public access wifi works. Any attempt to access any page diverts to > a > > login page. > > True enough. When I first read Chuck's message I misunderstood and > thought he meant that IE opened the page even though it was configured > to open a blank page on startup; but I guess I was just assuming that > since that's *my* preference for new pages. > > My ISP injects into web pages a helpful heads-up message if your account > is overdue. My work's network always prompts for a login unless you've > already logged in within some amount of time; I just reported to their > IT that this redirection doesn't work with any https: URL -- you just > get a thing saying the page can't be opened. With more pages being https > now, and major browsers being programmed to automatically try https > before http, this is a little annoying; unfortunately they told me this > was a shortcoming of the Cisco stuff they use, and they have no way of > fixing it. > > > On Nov 14, 2015 12:05 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > > > On 11/13/2015 09:29 AM, ben wrote: > > > > > > Windows new feature ... Auto Click > > >> Sigh. > > >> > > > > > > Oh, I don't know if that's a new feature. I recall getting a DSL modem > > > and getting instructions to bring up Internet Explorer after the > ethernet > > > cable had been connected to my computer. > > > > > > Well, I don't normally use Windows, but I have a couple of systems > with XP > > > installed, so I dragged them out and plugged in the modem. I brought > up > > > IE8 without keying in a URL and viewed the display "Configuring your > modem" > > > was the message along with the pretty colors of the modem sender. > > > > > > Holy cow! It didn't even ask if I wanted to point the browser at the > > > configuration page. Shades of COFEE. Does anyone else think that > this is > > > a great feature and not a security hole? > > > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > > -- > Eric Christopherson > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 07:20:22 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 02:20:22 +1300 Subject: A Selectric printer... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have an I/O Selectric device which is badged as, and was originally, an IBM 2970 Reservation Terminal. For better or worse, it was one of those bought up in the late 1970s by a company called 'Western I/O", based out of Scottsdale Arizona. They converted them for home use. One version used a Motorola 6800 to make a nifty-sounding terminal with selectable baud rates etc. I appear to have the 'other' version; a cheap and nasty printer-only conversion with some form of parallel port. Anybody else got one? Docs about them? Parts? Schematics? I'd like to get hold of one of the 'proper' terminal conversion versions... Must be some squirreled away in garages! Alternatively, any doc on the original 2970? There's an incredible dearth of information about what we're once very common devices... From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 08:46:51 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:46:51 -0400 Subject: A Selectric printer... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5651D55B.3050605@gmail.com> On 2015-11-22 9:20 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > I have an I/O Selectric device which is badged as, and was originally, an > IBM 2970 Reservation Terminal. > > For better or worse, it was one of those bought up in the late 1970s by a > company called 'Western I/O", based out of Scottsdale Arizona. They > converted them for home use. One version used a Motorola 6800 to make a > nifty-sounding terminal with selectable baud rates etc. I appear to have > the 'other' version; a cheap and nasty printer-only conversion with some > form of parallel port. > > Anybody else got one? Docs about them? Parts? Schematics? I'd like to get > hold of one of the 'proper' terminal conversion versions... Must be some > squirreled away in garages! > > Alternatively, any doc on the original 2970? There's an incredible dearth > of information about what we're once very common devices... Did you get the whole machine typewriter and control unit or just the typewriter? If you got the control unit the manuals may be inside. The typewriter part of it is just a modified office selectric with solenoids to do the selection and operate the functions and then a whole bunch of open strap contacts for feedback and also to sense what is typed on the keyboard. One of the first problems you may encounter is the motor belt is likely rotten and would be a challenge to change if you have never been inside a selectric, especially with all the extra stuff hung off it on an I/O. The reservation terminals I worked on nearly 40 years ago where connected to a telegraph line. 75 baud with about a 150V DC swing. Pictures? Paul. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Nov 22 09:05:28 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:05:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Nov 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote: > My ISP injects into web pages a helpful heads-up message if your account If you can, run screaming to another ISP. I don't care how "helpful" they're trying to be, content injection like that should be punished with a public skinning. Until then, try pointing your DNS to 8.8.8.8 (Google) and see if that prevents their shenannigans. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 22 09:23:16 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:23:16 -0500 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5651DDE4.1020600@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-11-22 10:05 AM, geneb wrote: > On Sun, 22 Nov 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote: > >> My ISP injects into web pages a helpful heads-up message if your account > If you can, run screaming to another ISP. I don't care how "helpful" > they're trying to be, content injection like that should be punished > with a public skinning. +1. It's actually a helpful reminder to change ISP's. --Toby > > Until then, try pointing your DNS to 8.8.8.8 (Google) and see if that > prevents their shenannigans. > > g. > From other at oryx.us Sun Nov 22 14:30:26 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 14:30:26 -0600 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> Message-ID: <565225E2.5070007@oryx.us> A question for the OP. I know that since all the Snowden stuff that took place back a bit, many sites have moved from http to https. Is your ISP able to inject content into "secure" https connections? Or only http transactions, going across the wire in plain text? Jerry On 11/22/15 09:05 AM, geneb wrote: > On Sun, 22 Nov 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote: > >> My ISP injects into web pages a helpful heads-up message if your account > If you can, run screaming to another ISP. I don't care how "helpful" they're > trying to be, content injection like that should be punished with a public > skinning. > > Until then, try pointing your DNS to 8.8.8.8 (Google) and see if that prevents > their shenannigans. > > g. > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 20:21:30 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 00:21:30 -0200 Subject: Looking for an IBM manual PDF In-Reply-To: <5650A007.3040608@bitsavers.org> References: <5650A007.3040608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: "Concentrated evil" was the best expression of the month. Congratulations, Al! :o) 2015-11-21 14:47 GMT-02:00 Al Kossow : > On 11/21/15 1:38 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > > Unfortunately, downloading the DjVu file does nothing >> > > and Firefox reports it as a web forgery. > > If someone can find real djvu files for those manuals, I will > convert them to pdf and put them on bitsavers. > > Any site that requires you to start java and use their djvu > web applet is concentrated evil. > > > > From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 15:20:56 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:20:56 -0600 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: <565225E2.5070007@oryx.us> References: <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> <565225E2.5070007@oryx.us> Message-ID: <20151122212056.GG10191@gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015, Jerry Kemp wrote: > A question for the OP. > > I know that since all the Snowden stuff that took place back a bit, many > sites have moved from http to https. > > Is your ISP able to inject content into "secure" https connections? Or only > http transactions, going across the wire in plain text? > > Jerry I'm not sure, but I'm betting https sites just refuse to connect -- which is how my employer's network handles https. > On 11/22/15 09:05 AM, geneb wrote: > >On Sun, 22 Nov 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > > >>My ISP injects into web pages a helpful heads-up message if your account > >If you can, run screaming to another ISP. I don't care how "helpful" they're > >trying to be, content injection like that should be punished with a public > >skinning. > > > >Until then, try pointing your DNS to 8.8.8.8 (Google) and see if that prevents > >their shenannigans. > > > >g. > > -- Eric Christopherson From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Nov 22 15:52:25 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 16:52:25 -0500 Subject: new message In-Reply-To: <565225E2.5070007@oryx.us> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> <565225E2.5070007@oryx.us> Message-ID: <67571F95-5F56-455E-B262-3168CFF9A189@comcast.net> > On Nov 22, 2015, at 3:30 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > A question for the OP. > > I know that since all the Snowden stuff that took place back a bit, many sites have moved from http to https. > > Is your ISP able to inject content into "secure" https connections? Or only http transactions, going across the wire in plain text? https is supposed to prevent "man in the middle" attacks, provided you enforce certificate validity. Another option if you have people messing with your web access is Tor. paul From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 22 16:25:47 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 17:25:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: new message In-Reply-To: <67571F95-5F56-455E-B262-3168CFF9A189@comcast.net> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> <565225E2.5070007@oryx.us> <67571F95-5F56-455E-B262-3168CFF9A189@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201511222225.RAA26995@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > https is supposed to prevent "man in the middle" attacks, provided you enfor$ That was the original theory, as I understand it. But there are way too many "in most browsers by default" CAs that are willing to sell wildcard certs such as can be used for MitM attacks without disturbing cert validity checks. I even recall hearing of some caching proxy (squid maybe?) that, out of the box, could use such a cert to provide caching for HTTPS connections - they're that common. Not surprising, really. The CA hierarchy is both the most central point and quite possibly the most commercialized and thus most venal point, so it's natural that it would be the major point that's come under attack by actors wishing to compromise the security HTTPS could have offered. (Some of them, probably, even have the best of intentions....) > Another option if you have people messing with your web access is > Tor. Or, of course, file bug reports with the provider in question and, if they're honest enough to admit what they're doing, switch. I know _I_ certainly wouldn't tolerate that sort of messing with my data stream. For those unfortunate enough to have nobody affordable to switch to, all I can suggest is ssh (or operational equivalent, such as a VPN) to a hosted, possibly virtual, machine somewhere not behind such crippling restrictions. (Depending on such factors as the jurisdiction and your dedication to the cause, a lawsuit might also be an option.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From radiotest at juno.com Sun Nov 22 18:01:52 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:01:52 -0500 Subject: Fw: new message In-Reply-To: References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151122185932.03d42a28@juno.com> At 10:05 AM 11/22/2015, geneb wrote: >Until then, try pointing your DNS to 8.8.8.8 (Google) and see if that prevents their shenannigans. IMHO, Google has enough shenanigans of their own. I use the Level3 DNS (4.2.2.1 / 4.2.2.2 / 4.2.2.3). Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 22 18:18:20 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:18:20 -0500 Subject: HTTPS and man-in-the-middle - was Re: new message In-Reply-To: <201511222225.RAA26995@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> <565225E2.5070007@oryx.us> <67571F95-5F56-455E-B262-3168CFF9A189@comcast.net> <201511222225.RAA26995@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <56525B4C.3030100@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-11-22 5:25 PM, Mouse wrote: >> https is supposed to prevent "man in the middle" attacks, provided you enfor$ > > That was the original theory, as I understand it. > > But there are way too many "in most browsers by default" CAs that are > willing to sell wildcard certs such as can be used for MitM attacks > without disturbing cert validity checks. I even recall hearing of some > caching proxy (squid maybe?) that, out of the box, could use such a Microsoft Forefront TMG maybe? http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/itanswers/https-inspection-within-forefront-threat-management-gateway-2010/ --Toby > cert to provide caching for HTTPS connections - they're that common. > ... > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Nov 22 20:06:53 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:06:53 -0500 Subject: new message In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20151122185932.03d42a28@juno.com> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151122185932.03d42a28@juno.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 22, 2015, at 7:01 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > > At 10:05 AM 11/22/2015, geneb wrote: > >> Until then, try pointing your DNS to 8.8.8.8 (Google) and see if that prevents their shenannigans. > > IMHO, Google has enough shenanigans of their own. I use the Level3 DNS (4.2.2.1 / 4.2.2.2 / 4.2.2.3). If you have a Unix box as your firewall, as I do, it's not hard to set up your own DNS server to serve the machines behind it. Then you can just load the current root files and take it from there. paul From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Nov 22 20:27:17 2015 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 20:27:17 -0600 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <56527985.1020501@tx.rr.com> On 11/21/2015 4:54 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi there, > > I'm working on reverse engineering a radio navigation receiver > (surprisingly not GPS, something else... Datatrak if anyone's heard of > it) for the purpose of either repurposing the hardware or building up > some kind of demo rig. > > A lot of my effort at the moment seems to be identifying C Library > functions and naming them. Ideally, I'd like to identify the compiler > and CLib and feed that into the disassembler to eliminate that work. > > Does anyone know which 68000 compilers were available in 1993, and which > could produce ROM code? Or a few? > > > > I've looked at Aztec C68K but ruled it out on the basis that the _strlen > library function doesn't match up -- this is the one from the ROM: > > _strlen: > movea.l 4(sp), a0 > move.l a0, d0 > _strlen_l001: > tst.b (a0+) > bne.s _strlen_l001 > sub.l a0, d0 > not.l d0 > rts > > > Aztec is identical up to the bne, then: > > sub.l d0, a0 > move.l a0, d0 > sub,l #1, d0 > rts > > Which is one instruction longer... so it's not Aztec. > > > Other parts of the system apparently used VME-bus modules... so this > wasn't a small operation. > > Anyway, whatever compiler this is, it pulls in Motorola's Fast Floating > Point library. > > > Thanks, There was also one by an outfit called Microtec or maybe Microtech or Microtek that ran on an IBM PC. There was an accompanying linker package. Mostly I loaded the code into RAM for execution, but I'm reasonably sure there was a way to create files to be used to burn EPROMs as well. I can't quite read the title on the currently non-reachable bookshelf unless I go round up a pair of binoculars. :-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 22 21:29:30 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:29:30 -0600 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: <000301d1259f$2a79ace0$7f6d06a0$@classiccmp.org> I'm looking for a modern storage (ie. anywhere from 100mb to "huge") device for an 11/44. I think I have seen a few hobbyist projects that were flash based, I thought I saw one that was an IDE interface.... Long story short I've satisfied the purist in me by putting an RL02 on the machine, but that's just not enough storage for that particular system. Anyone know of a good project to add some modern storage to get me over the available storage on the RL02? J From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 22 21:43:39 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:43:39 -0800 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <000301d1259f$2a79ace0$7f6d06a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000301d1259f$2a79ace0$7f6d06a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On Nov 22, 2015, at 7:29 PM, Jay West wrote: > > I'm looking for a modern storage (ie. anywhere from 100mb to "huge") device > for an 11/44. I think I have seen a few hobbyist projects that were flash > based, I thought I saw one that was an IDE interface.... > > Long story short I've satisfied the purist in me by putting an RL02 on the > machine, but that's just not enough storage for that particular system. > Anyone know of a good project to add some modern storage to get me over the > available storage on the RL02? What about some sort of SCSI-to-IDE adapter? Though I simply have a couple DEC SCSI drives for my /44, in addition to its pair of RL02?s. Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 22 21:45:20 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 21:45:20 -0600 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <000301d1259f$2a79ace0$7f6d06a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000401d125a1$619c7160$24d55420$@classiccmp.org> Alas... I have no scsi cards for any of my dec gear. I was hoping for a CF based device that plugs straight into the unibus... or similar solution... J From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 22:05:09 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 04:05:09 +0000 Subject: A Selectric printer... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are a couple of Yahoo groups for Selectric Typewriters and some have the docs for the IO selectrics. On Nov 22, 2015 6:51 PM, "Mike Ross" wrote: > I have an I/O Selectric device which is badged as, and was originally, an > IBM 2970 Reservation Terminal. > > For better or worse, it was one of those bought up in the late 1970s by a > company called 'Western I/O", based out of Scottsdale Arizona. They > converted them for home use. One version used a Motorola 6800 to make a > nifty-sounding terminal with selectable baud rates etc. I appear to have > the 'other' version; a cheap and nasty printer-only conversion with some > form of parallel port. > > Anybody else got one? Docs about them? Parts? Schematics? I'd like to get > hold of one of the 'proper' terminal conversion versions... Must be some > squirreled away in garages! > > Alternatively, any doc on the original 2970? There's an incredible dearth > of information about what we're once very common devices... > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Nov 22 22:16:12 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 23:16:12 -0500 Subject: A Selectric printer... Message-ID: <104fca.5cf61f0d.4383ed0c@aol.com> list of groups please!?! neat! Ed# In a message dated 11/22/2015 9:05:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com writes: There are a couple of Yahoo groups for Selectric Typewriters and some have the docs for the IO selectrics. On Nov 22, 2015 6:51 PM, "Mike Ross" wrote: > I have an I/O Selectric device which is badged as, and was originally, an > IBM 2970 Reservation Terminal. > > For better or worse, it was one of those bought up in the late 1970s by a > company called 'Western I/O", based out of Scottsdale Arizona. They > converted them for home use. One version used a Motorola 6800 to make a > nifty-sounding terminal with selectable baud rates etc. I appear to have > the 'other' version; a cheap and nasty printer-only conversion with some > form of parallel port. > > Anybody else got one? Docs about them? Parts? Schematics? I'd like to get > hold of one of the 'proper' terminal conversion versions... Must be some > squirreled away in garages! > > Alternatively, any doc on the original 2970? There's an incredible dearth > of information about what we're once very common devices... > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 22:18:18 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 04:18:18 +0000 Subject: HTTPS and man-in-the-middle - was Re: new message In-Reply-To: <56525B4C.3030100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> <565225E2.5070007@oryx.us> <67571F95-5F56-455E-B262-3168CFF9A189@comcast.net> <201511222225.RAA26995@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56525B4C.3030100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: For outbound TMG needs a browser plugin. For inbound its usual to terminate the SSL on the TMG firewall and then TMG opens a new SSL session to the backend web server. For this to work TMG needs to have a copy of the certificate including the private key. Wildcard certs are commonly used with TMG but having a FQDN only guarantees the server is under control of the certificate owner. You can have multiple sites on the same server, or have a single site load balanced across multiple servers. SQUID will do the same trick, but I have always run squid on the same box as the web farm, but this isn't required... On Nov 23, 2015 5:48 AM, "Toby Thain" wrote: > On 2015-11-22 5:25 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> https is supposed to prevent "man in the middle" attacks, provided you >>> enfor$ >>> >> >> That was the original theory, as I understand it. >> >> But there are way too many "in most browsers by default" CAs that are >> willing to sell wildcard certs such as can be used for MitM attacks >> without disturbing cert validity checks. I even recall hearing of some >> caching proxy (squid maybe?) that, out of the box, could use such a >> > > Microsoft Forefront TMG maybe? > > http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/itanswers/https-inspection-within-forefront-threat-management-gateway-2010/ > > --Toby > > > cert to provide caching for HTTPS connections - they're that common. >> ... >> >> /~\ The ASCII Mouse >> \ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B >> >> > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Nov 22 22:18:45 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 20:18:45 -0800 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <000401d125a1$619c7160$24d55420$@classiccmp.org> References: <000301d1259f$2a79ace0$7f6d06a0$@classiccmp.org> <000401d125a1$619c7160$24d55420$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <565293A5.9040702@shiresoft.com> It's on my (long) list of projects. I first have to finish the MEM11. That will have RF11/RS11s as part of the emulated devices. I'm planning on using the J1 and associated infrastructure for my other projects (which is why I've spent so much time getting them "right"). TTFN - Guy On 11/22/15 7:45 PM, Jay West wrote: > Alas... I have no scsi cards for any of my dec gear. I was hoping for a CF based device that plugs straight into the unibus... or similar solution... > > J > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 22:23:13 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 04:23:13 +0000 Subject: A Selectric printer... In-Reply-To: <104fca.5cf61f0d.4383ed0c@aol.com> References: <104fca.5cf61f0d.4383ed0c@aol.com> Message-ID: Sorry I am in India and just have the mobile at present. Try http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golfballtypewritershop/ But not sure if URL is OK..... list of groups please!?! neat! Ed# In a message dated 11/22/2015 9:05:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com writes: There are a couple of Yahoo groups for Selectric Typewriters and some have the docs for the IO selectrics. On Nov 22, 2015 6:51 PM, "Mike Ross" wrote: > I have an I/O Selectric device which is badged as, and was originally, an > IBM 2970 Reservation Terminal. > > For better or worse, it was one of those bought up in the late 1970s by a > company called 'Western I/O", based out of Scottsdale Arizona. They > converted them for home use. One version used a Motorola 6800 to make a > nifty-sounding terminal with selectable baud rates etc. I appear to have > the 'other' version; a cheap and nasty printer-only conversion with some > form of parallel port. > > Anybody else got one? Docs about them? Parts? Schematics? I'd like to get > hold of one of the 'proper' terminal conversion versions... Must be some > squirreled away in garages! > > Alternatively, any doc on the original 2970? There's an incredible dearth > of information about what we're once very common devices... > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 23:08:21 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 00:08:21 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <565293A5.9040702@shiresoft.com> References: <000301d1259f$2a79ace0$7f6d06a0$@classiccmp.org> <000401d125a1$619c7160$24d55420$@classiccmp.org> <565293A5.9040702@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Plus one here. With all the SMD controllers languishing out there due to dead drives, you'd think there should be a way to make a cheap little glue board that could interface to a modern HDA, with the IDE bits ripped out, right? On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:18 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > It's on my (long) list of projects. I first have to finish the MEM11. > That will have RF11/RS11s as part of the emulated devices. > > I'm planning on using the J1 and associated infrastructure for my other > projects (which is why I've spent so much time getting them "right"). > > TTFN - Guy > > > On 11/22/15 7:45 PM, Jay West wrote: > >> Alas... I have no scsi cards for any of my dec gear. I was hoping for a >> CF based device that plugs straight into the unibus... or similar >> solution... >> >> J >> >> >> > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Nov 23 00:03:38 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Shiresoft) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 22:03:38 -0800 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <000301d1259f$2a79ace0$7f6d06a0$@classiccmp.org> <000401d125a1$619c7160$24d55420$@classiccmp.org> <565293A5.9040702@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Uh, no. Interfacing to an HDA (especially a modern one) is not for the faint of heart. The drive controller is usually a custom (to the drive family) ASIC. In many cases the firmware and drive parameters are stored on the drive media itself. The read/write amplifiers are usually tuned to the specific heads and drive data rate (again those are contained in the custom ASIC). Creating an SMD (or ESDI) drive emulator doesn't look to be all that difficult since the data is all after the clock recovery and is all digital. That is when writing, the controller provides the clock (can't remember if the drive provides a reference clock). On reading, the drive provides the clock. In those cases, the bits are bits and you don't have to worry about over sampling and jitter. Plus the interface to the drive is reasonably high level in that the controller sends commands and gets responses. TTFN - Guy > On Nov 22, 2015, at 9:08 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > > Plus one here. With all the SMD controllers languishing out there due to > dead drives, you'd think there should be a way to make a cheap little glue > board that could interface to a modern HDA, with the IDE bits ripped out, > right? > >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:18 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> It's on my (long) list of projects. I first have to finish the MEM11. >> That will have RF11/RS11s as part of the emulated devices. >> >> I'm planning on using the J1 and associated infrastructure for my other >> projects (which is why I've spent so much time getting them "right"). >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> >>> On 11/22/15 7:45 PM, Jay West wrote: >>> >>> Alas... I have no scsi cards for any of my dec gear. I was hoping for a >>> CF based device that plugs straight into the unibus... or similar >>> solution... >>> >>> J >>> >>> >>> >> From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 00:16:48 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 00:16:48 -0600 Subject: HTTPS and man-in-the-middle - was Re: new message In-Reply-To: References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> <565225E2.5070007@oryx.us> <67571F95-5F56-455E-B262-3168CFF9A189@comcast.net> <201511222225.RAA26995@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56525B4C.3030100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Man this has turned in a hackerspace discussion on security On Nov 22, 2015 10:18 PM, "Dave Wade" wrote: > For outbound TMG needs a browser plugin. For inbound its usual to terminate > the SSL on the TMG firewall and then TMG opens a new SSL session to the > backend web server. For this to work TMG needs to have a copy of the > certificate including the private key. Wildcard certs are commonly used > with TMG but having a FQDN only guarantees the server is under control of > the certificate owner. You can have multiple sites on the same server, or > have a single site load balanced across multiple servers. SQUID will do the > same trick, but I have always run squid on the same box as the web farm, > but this isn't required... > On Nov 23, 2015 5:48 AM, "Toby Thain" wrote: > > > On 2015-11-22 5:25 PM, Mouse wrote: > > > >> https is supposed to prevent "man in the middle" attacks, provided you > >>> enfor$ > >>> > >> > >> That was the original theory, as I understand it. > >> > >> But there are way too many "in most browsers by default" CAs that are > >> willing to sell wildcard certs such as can be used for MitM attacks > >> without disturbing cert validity checks. I even recall hearing of some > >> caching proxy (squid maybe?) that, out of the box, could use such a > >> > > > > Microsoft Forefront TMG maybe? > > > > > http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/itanswers/https-inspection-within-forefront-threat-management-gateway-2010/ > > > > --Toby > > > > > > cert to provide caching for HTTPS connections - they're that common. > >> ... > >> > >> /~\ The ASCII Mouse > >> \ / Ribbon Campaign > >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > >> > >> > > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 02:50:40 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:50:40 +1300 Subject: A Selectric printer... In-Reply-To: <5651D55B.3050605@gmail.com> References: <5651D55B.3050605@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just the typewriter. Western I/O evidently threw away all the IBM electronics and took just the basic I/O Selectric mechanism, and installed their own electronics in the base. Video here, some pics in comments: https://www.facebook.com/tmfdmike/videos/10207930350486487/?l=4583813823466285768 Mike On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 3:46 AM, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2015-11-22 9:20 AM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> I have an I/O Selectric device which is badged as, and was originally, an >> IBM 2970 Reservation Terminal. >> >> For better or worse, it was one of those bought up in the late 1970s by a >> company called 'Western I/O", based out of Scottsdale Arizona. They >> converted them for home use. One version used a Motorola 6800 to make a >> nifty-sounding terminal with selectable baud rates etc. I appear to have >> the 'other' version; a cheap and nasty printer-only conversion with some >> form of parallel port. >> >> Anybody else got one? Docs about them? Parts? Schematics? I'd like to get >> hold of one of the 'proper' terminal conversion versions... Must be some >> squirreled away in garages! >> >> Alternatively, any doc on the original 2970? There's an incredible dearth >> of information about what we're once very common devices... > > Did you get the whole machine typewriter and control unit or just the > typewriter? If you got the control unit the manuals may be inside. The > typewriter part of it is just a modified office selectric with solenoids to > do the selection and operate the functions and then a whole bunch of open > strap contacts for feedback and also to sense what is typed on the keyboard. > One of the first problems you may encounter is the motor belt is likely > rotten and would be a challenge to change if you have never been inside a > selectric, especially with all the extra stuff hung off it on an I/O. The > reservation terminals I worked on nearly 40 years ago where connected to a > telegraph line. 75 baud with about a 150V DC swing. Pictures? > > Paul. -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 03:04:43 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:04:43 +1300 Subject: Any AS/400 hackers? Linux question Message-ID: Might not really be old enough for this audience but it's an obscure enough question! I have an AS/400 9406-S20 - mid 1990s vintage. These things could have what IBM called an 'Integrated Netfinity Server' - basically an Intel PC on a board, using space on AS/400 disk etc. Two such boards work in this machine: the 2852 (Pentium Pro) and 2865 (Pentium II). Both ran NT, and that's well-documented in a Redbook. Both could also allegedly run OS/2 and Netware. it wasn't officially supported I know, but did anyone ever succeed in shoehorning Linux onto either of these boards? If so, how? Official support only came with the next iteration of hardware (which my system can't use), and relied on the 'PC on a board' having USB ports, and involved the use of a USB floppy drive (!) to complete the Linux install process! (I'm at V5R2 btw, and have had NT running on this board) Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From radiotest at plymouthcolony.net Sun Nov 22 21:50:16 2015 From: radiotest at plymouthcolony.net (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 22:50:16 -0500 Subject: new message In-Reply-To: References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151122185932.03d42a28@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151122224529.03d44d20@plymouthcolony.net> At 09:06 PM 11/22/2015, Paul Koning wrote: >If you have a Unix box as your firewall, as I do ... I some of my most vital computing on the road for work, in locations where I have no access to the firewall settings. All of my Access Connections location profiles, including the DHCP profile that I use at some locations that are not regular stops at work, are set to use the Level3 DNS entries. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 23 05:31:30 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:31:30 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <000301d1259f$2a79ace0$7f6d06a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000301d1259f$2a79ace0$7f6d06a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5652F912.5020000@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-23 04:29, Jay West wrote: > I'm looking for a modern storage (ie. anywhere from 100mb to "huge") device > for an 11/44. I think I have seen a few hobbyist projects that were flash > based, I thought I saw one that was an IDE interface.... > > Long story short I've satisfied the purist in me by putting an RL02 on the > machine, but that's just not enough storage for that particular system. > Anyone know of a good project to add some modern storage to get me over the > available storage on the RL02? I know there been a few projects/attempts at some IDE thing, but I dont think I've ssen any that's been completed. The (other) obvious answer in a SCSI-controller, but SCSI controllers for Unibus are less common, and usually expensive. And to make things "worse", you really would want something that implements MSCP, as otherwise you need to emulate a specific disk geometry and size. About the only controller that have dynamic size of the disk is MSCP. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 23 05:41:14 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 06:41:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: <20151123114114.D384D18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay West > I'm looking for a modern storage ... device for an 11 Aren't we all! :-) > I think I have seen a few hobbyist projects that were flash based, I > thought I saw one that was an IDE interface.... I think that was probably Brad Parker's prototype? > Anyone know of a good project to add some modern storage Available today, no. But there are a number of projects which will probably be cranking out UNIBUS DEC controller emulators with modern storage backends. I gather Guy's MEM11 project will probably eventually spin off a version with a larger disk, and Bridgham and I are planning on doing a UNIBUS version of our card once the QBUS version is done. (Actually, ours is planned to include an ENABLE too, with 4MB of memory, for those of us with 34's, 40's, 45's, etc.) Any more? Noel From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 06:11:30 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:11:30 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <20151123114114.D384D18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151123114114.D384D18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <014201d125e8$1675bbf0$436133d0$@gmail.com> As Tom Lehrer not-so-delicately put it "more, more, more! I'm still not satisfied ..." :->. My thanks to you and Bridgham (who has a second name, perhaps)! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 6:41 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? > From: Jay West > I'm looking for a modern storage ... device for an 11 Aren't we all! :-) > I think I have seen a few hobbyist projects that were flash based, I > thought I saw one that was an IDE interface.... I think that was probably Brad Parker's prototype? > Anyone know of a good project to add some modern storage Available today, no. But there are a number of projects which will probably be cranking out UNIBUS DEC controller emulators with modern storage backends. I gather Guy's MEM11 project will probably eventually spin off a version with a larger disk, and Bridgham and I are planning on doing a UNIBUS version of our card once the QBUS version is done. (Actually, ours is planned to include an ENABLE too, with 4MB of memory, for those of us with 34's, 40's, 45's, etc.) Any more? Noel From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 23 07:23:33 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 08:23:33 -0500 Subject: Pine In-Reply-To: <564FD5EC.8090205@sydex.com> References: <564FC1AA.70105@dunnington.plus.com> <564FD5EC.8090205@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56531355.3010309@sbcglobal.net> On 11/20/2015 09:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/20/2015 04:58 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 20/11/2015 19:39, Eric Christopherson wrote: >> >>> I'm considering doing something that actually downloads my Gmail >>> content locally and keeps it in sync periodically, but I haven't >>> really looked at what's necessary for that. >> >> You could use fetchmail to snarf it and any IMAP server to make it >> available as you like - I use UW imapd, which is pretty lightweight. > > I do that with both gmail and yahoo mail. Yahoo only offers IMAP for > free, not POP. That's okay--except when you have a connectivity issue > with Yahoo and your mail vanishes until it returns. > > Yahoo offers POP, but I believe that they want their palm crossed with > silver for it. True? > I thought Yahoo was free either way? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 08:16:29 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:16:29 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <20151123114114.D384D18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151123114114.D384D18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > Anyone know of a good project to add some modern storage > > Available today, no. But there are a number of projects which will probably > be cranking out UNIBUS DEC controller emulators with modern storage > backends. > I gather Guy's MEM11 project will probably eventually spin off a version > with > a larger disk, and Bridgham and I are planning on doing a UNIBUS version of > our card once the QBUS version is done. (Actually, ours is planned to > include > an ENABLE too, with 4MB of memory, for those of us with 34's, 40's, 45's, > etc.) Any more? > > Noel > This is great news, Noel. Are you on keeping bits and/or status for these projects on github or anywhere else that might encourage participation and contribution? I'd be glad to pitch in if I can. Actually, I (and I bet others) would love to see an up to date wiki entry or somesuch listing folks' retro projects like these and would be happy to create it if you'd provide a couple of pointers. --jake From dab at froghouse.org Mon Nov 23 08:52:34 2015 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:52:34 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: <56532832.8060408@froghouse.org> > As Tom Lehrer not-so-delicately put it "more, more, more! I'm still not > satisfied ..." :->. We'll do our best. How about we add indicator panels? > My thanks to you and Bridgham (who has a second name, perhaps)! My second name is David but it comes first. I'm just funny that way. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 09:54:37 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 11:54:37 -0400 Subject: A Selectric printer... In-Reply-To: References: <5651D55B.3050605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <565336BD.6040708@gmail.com> That look like one of the original selectric I/Os which means that mechanically it is very much like the standard Office Products (OP) selectric. The sound that it is making when running suggests that the motor belt is cracked or is missing teeth. Unlike the OP selectric the IO used a more powerful capacitor start motor that was capable of ripping the teeth of the belt if the mechanism was jammed. It looks like the dust covers are missing there should be covers over the cycle shaft and op shaft. When you types it looks like the carriage did not move and also you noted that carriage return does not work, This may be due to the "cords" being broken or off the drums. There should be two white nylon cords, one attached to each side of the carrier, the one on the left goes around behind the frame an wraps onto a drum there, the drum for the one on the right should be visible when you look inside. The visible drum has a bevel gear on the face that meshes with two bevel gears on the op shaft. That look like they have springs around them. There should be a nylon shoe that presses against the on one the left when you press the carriage return key. I found this online which may be of some help to you, https://archive.org/download/bitsavers_ibmtypewrishootingTheIBMSelectricTypewriter_48581416/Troubleshooting_The_IBM_Selectric_Typewriter.pdf This manual will at least help with the mechanical part of the IO. The cover latches are on either side and will be half buried in the likely now rotten foam on the sides. They have a slot in the top you can stick the blade of a screwdriver into and move the top of the latch towards the front. The original IO used 48V solenoids to operate the mechanism as a printer. There will be 6 for selection, one for shift, one for cycle clutch, and one for each function, likely tab, carriage return and line feed. The basic operation is the selection magnets are picked to pull the desired latches and then the cycle clutch magnet is pulsed to take a print cycle. To maximize the print speed, the selection magnets get picked as the cycle clutch passes the rest position that way the cycle clutch never latches up to give you maximum print speed. This is timed by contacts operated by cams at the left end of the cycle shaft. There will also be a block of contacts under the selection assembly that are used to detect what key is pressed and in some versions of the 2970s ( there are lots) there was a set of contacts designed to verify that the correct character was printed. The ones I worked on most where teller terminals used in banks and they had these check contacts. There is also shift feedback contact and a contact that is call the long function contact that is activated during tabs and carriage return. Other things I found that may be helpful: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s17/sh/0b92c5b8-2366-4101-aa9d-4c999325ae6a/64550208b1ee2cba06238f6915eb77fe Training videos, These appear to be the original slide and audio tape training for the OP selectric. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHT97Xg067fCkONv0EKmS74a-csWbttXl I don't recall there being any specific manuals for for the IO, but I was working on these daily and did not need to refer to manuals often. Paul. On 2015-11-23 4:50 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > Just the typewriter. Western I/O evidently threw away all the IBM > electronics and took just the basic I/O Selectric mechanism, and > installed their own electronics in the base. > > Video here, some pics in comments: > https://www.facebook.com/tmfdmike/videos/10207930350486487/?l=4583813823466285768 > > Mike > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 3:46 AM, Paul Berger wrote: >> On 2015-11-22 9:20 AM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> I have an I/O Selectric device which is badged as, and was originally, an >>> IBM 2970 Reservation Terminal. >>> >>> For better or worse, it was one of those bought up in the late 1970s by a >>> company called 'Western I/O", based out of Scottsdale Arizona. They >>> converted them for home use. One version used a Motorola 6800 to make a >>> nifty-sounding terminal with selectable baud rates etc. I appear to have >>> the 'other' version; a cheap and nasty printer-only conversion with some >>> form of parallel port. >>> >>> Anybody else got one? Docs about them? Parts? Schematics? I'd like to get >>> hold of one of the 'proper' terminal conversion versions... Must be some >>> squirreled away in garages! >>> >>> Alternatively, any doc on the original 2970? There's an incredible dearth >>> of information about what we're once very common devices... >> Did you get the whole machine typewriter and control unit or just the >> typewriter? If you got the control unit the manuals may be inside. The >> typewriter part of it is just a modified office selectric with solenoids to >> do the selection and operate the functions and then a whole bunch of open >> strap contacts for feedback and also to sense what is typed on the keyboard. >> One of the first problems you may encounter is the motor belt is likely >> rotten and would be a challenge to change if you have never been inside a >> selectric, especially with all the extra stuff hung off it on an I/O. The >> reservation terminals I worked on nearly 40 years ago where connected to a >> telegraph line. 75 baud with about a 150V DC swing. Pictures? >> >> Paul. > > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 23 09:57:26 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 16:57:26 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <000301d1259f$2a79ace0$7f6d06a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000301d1259f$2a79ace0$7f6d06a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Jay West Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 4:29 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? > I'm looking for a modern storage (ie. anywhere from 100mb to "huge") > device > for an 11/44. I think I have seen a few hobbyist projects that were flash > based, I thought I saw one that was an IDE interface.... > > Long story short I've satisfied the purist in me by putting an RL02 on the > machine, but that's just not enough storage for that particular system. > Anyone know of a good project to add some modern storage to get me over > the > available storage on the RL02? Although it is not quite 100 MB, IIRC Pete McCollum made a simple interface that mimics an RX01. It is a small dual-width card, and needs additionally an M105 (address decode) and M7821 (interrupt) single-width card. The dual-width card connects to the parallel port of a PC. A program on the PC handles the transfers. The nice thing of this design is that it uses the standard DX.sys (or DXX.sys). No changes what-s-ever for RT11 (what I used). What I have forgotten is that there was NO limit (or some higher value limit) to the data stored in the files on the PC. So, maybe not suitable for 100 MBs, but still a project that deserves some attention (IMHO). - Henk From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 23 10:03:01 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 17:03:01 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <20151123114114.D384D18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151123114114.D384D18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 12:41 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? > [...] > and Bridgham and I are planning on doing a UNIBUS version of > our card once the QBUS version is done. (Actually, ours is > planned to include an ENABLE too, with 4MB of memory, for those > of us with 34's, 40's, 45's, etc.) Any more? > > Noel Sounds VERY interesting and promising ! Tell us more ... and keep us posted Noel. Thanks for the effort so far, - Henk From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 23 10:05:52 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 17:05:52 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <56532832.8060408@froghouse.org> References: <56532832.8060408@froghouse.org> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: David Bridgham Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 3:52 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? > > As Tom Lehrer not-so-delicately put it "more, more, more! I'm still not > > satisfied ..." :->. > We'll do our best. How about we add indicator panels? LOL, but why not? We *love* blinkenlights !! (status, read, write, select, to name a few) Heck, why not address (all 22) and data too? It is optional anyway, but if you have a blank front panel this "fills nicely" :-) - Henk From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 23 10:13:29 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 16:13:29 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Production Message-ID: <56533B29.9060200@btinternet.com> Hi Guys I'm due at the screen printers on Wednesday. I've now incorporated what I have gleaned from the loan panel into the drawing set. For 8/e panels we now have the following layers to be printed. _On the front: _ First will be a translucent matte base coat to give a satin finish. It looks black because of the black layer on the back of the panel. Then either the Terracotta or the Amber and finally white. At this point the panel is neither a Type A or Type B . White only detail in the selector switch area and the dividers between lamp groups can then be added to give the panel its identity. There are two small screen separations to allow this to be done. _On the back:_ The 8/e back side (/f and /m differ I'll explain that later) has a heavy black layer with clear round areas for the lamps / LEDS to shine through. In just the lamp area there's another translucent matte layer. This and the one on the front act to diffuse the light coming from the lamps/LEDS. Thats seven layers in total and they have to be dried after each layer goes on. Each one needs a silk screen and when being printed registration is critical. Its a skilled job and not one I would care to have to do. More news when I have it. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From dab at froghouse.org Mon Nov 23 09:10:25 2015 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:10:25 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: <56532C61.8070202@froghouse.org> > This is great news, Noel. Are you on keeping bits and/or status for these > projects on github or anywhere else that might encourage participation and > contribution? I'd be glad to pitch in if I can. Actually, I (and I bet > others) would love to see an up to date wiki entry or somesuch listing > folks' retro projects like these and would be happy to create it if you'd > provide a couple of pointers. I have the little code I've written so far in a private git server but not on github. Eventually the plan is to do something like that but we're pretty early in the process. Certainly nothing is running yet. Even though I've set up a git server, I still have to learn how to actually use git. However, once we get a prototype doing something interesting, we were talking about looking around for people interested in helping out. We'll do a couple disk controllers but if someone wants to add others, great. Especially if someone wants to add MSCP. We're happy to skip that one ourselves. But the real thing we'll want help with is circuit board design and manufacturing. We can do easy things but I'd really like to use BGA parts for the FPGA and memory chips so if someone has a handle on that, we'd like to talk. A I said, our plan was to get a prototype working before going in search of this kind of assistance. We're using an FPGA module from ZTEX right now to sidestep the issue. Is there a wiki out there that holds this kind of information? It seems like a great idea and I'll put some information together on our project if there is. Or maybe, now that news is spreading that we're doing this, it's time to write up a web page describing what we're up to. -Dave From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 23 11:11:28 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:11:28 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <56532C61.8070202@froghouse.org> References: <56532C61.8070202@froghouse.org> Message-ID: > On Nov 23, 2015, at 10:10 AM, David Bridgham wrote: > > ... > However, once we get a prototype doing something interesting, we were > talking about looking around for people interested in helping out. > We'll do a couple disk controllers but if someone wants to add others, > great. Especially if someone wants to add MSCP. We're happy to skip > that one ourselves. I can imagine. MSCP is a large effort. For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Nov 23 11:17:03 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:17:03 -0800 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <56532C61.8070202@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <56534A0F.30500@shiresoft.com> On 11/23/15 9:11 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Nov 23, 2015, at 10:10 AM, David Bridgham wrote: >> >> ... >> However, once we get a prototype doing something interesting, we were >> talking about looking around for people interested in helping out. >> We'll do a couple disk controllers but if someone wants to add others, >> great. Especially if someone wants to add MSCP. We're happy to skip >> that one ourselves. > I can imagine. MSCP is a large effort. > > For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. That's per-drive. Massbus allows for 8 drives per controller. While, MSCP is interesting in that it's somewhat drive independent, it's complex and it only really works with newer OS's. TTFN - Guy From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 23 11:55:11 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:55:11 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <56532C61.8070202@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <565352FF.2000108@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-23 18:11, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 23, 2015, at 10:10 AM, David Bridgham wrote: >> >> ... >> However, once we get a prototype doing something interesting, we were >> talking about looking around for people interested in helping out. >> We'll do a couple disk controllers but if someone wants to add others, >> great. Especially if someone wants to add MSCP. We're happy to skip >> that one ourselves. > > I can imagine. MSCP is a large effort. Indeed. But you have code like the stuff in simh, which will tell you how it is supposed to work. > For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. Unfortunately, support for the RP07 is lacking in most OSes. I don't know about RSTS/E, but in RSX, there are some odd holes in there, suggesting that they never used them much in real life. I did get it to work, but I had to write my own formatting module for FMT, among other things. Otherwise it's the RM05 at 256 Meg, if I remember right. But all those disks are also expected to expose the actual geometry of the disk. While fairly straight forward, it do expose you to a rather low level interface, where you need to do a lot of calculations all the time. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 23 12:00:23 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 19:00:23 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <56534A0F.30500@shiresoft.com> References: <56532C61.8070202@froghouse.org> <56534A0F.30500@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <56535437.4050805@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-23 18:17, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On 11/23/15 9:11 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Nov 23, 2015, at 10:10 AM, David Bridgham wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> However, once we get a prototype doing something interesting, we were >>> talking about looking around for people interested in helping out. >>> We'll do a couple disk controllers but if someone wants to add others, >>> great. Especially if someone wants to add MSCP. We're happy to skip >>> that one ourselves. >> I can imagine. MSCP is a large effort. >> >> For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks >> (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over >> 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. > > That's per-drive. Massbus allows for 8 drives per controller. Right. But then you also need to remember that there are some slight differences between different type of disks, meaning that in DEC parlance, if you have both an RP06 and an RP07 (for example) on the same massbus, it's called a mixed massbus, which not all OSes supported. As far as I can tell, disks fall into two groups, as far as massbus control is concerned. The RM02, RM03, RM05, RM80 and RP07 is one group. The RP04, RP05, RP06 is another. A few register addresses between the groups are the same, but the actual register at that address is different. But if I remember right, it's registers that have to do with error recovery, so potentially not something people would care about in emulation anyway. But it still means there are different drivers in the OS for them. And of course, you also have the TM02/TM03 and TM78, which have yet again different registers on the massbus. > While, MSCP is interesting in that it's somewhat drive independent, it's > complex and it only really works with newer OS's. Well, "newer" in this case is sortof anything beyond the mid 80s. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 23 12:33:28 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:33:28 -0800 Subject: Pine In-Reply-To: <56531355.3010309@sbcglobal.net> References: <564FC1AA.70105@dunnington.plus.com> <564FD5EC.8090205@sydex.com> <56531355.3010309@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56535BF8.6080701@sydex.com> On 11/23/2015 05:23 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > I thought Yahoo was free either way? My information was a few years out of date. Got Yahoo with POP3 access now--a bit of a hassle converting from IMAP, but it's done. Thanks for prodding me. --Chuck From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Nov 23 12:39:38 2015 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 19:39:38 +0100 Subject: Toshiba MKM0142E 8" floppy manual / jumper info sought Message-ID: <56535D6A.1030004@bluewin.ch> Trying to build up an IMD floppy disk imaging workstation, i.e. a PC with 3.5, 5 and 8 floppy drives. The 8 inch drive I have is a Toshiba MKM0142E , dual side, a very late model. ( Datecodes on the ICs range from 1984 to 1991 ) Anyone has a manual for that beast, or maybe just jumpering info ? thanks Jos From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 23 13:26:25 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:26:25 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <56535437.4050805@update.uu.se> References: <56532C61.8070202@froghouse.org> <56534A0F.30500@shiresoft.com> <56535437.4050805@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <95005A48-F996-49D9-AB59-7161A926D909@comcast.net> > On Nov 23, 2015, at 1:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-11-23 18:17, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> >> On 11/23/15 9:11 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> On Nov 23, 2015, at 10:10 AM, David Bridgham wrote: >>>> >>>> ... >>>> However, once we get a prototype doing something interesting, we were >>>> talking about looking around for people interested in helping out. >>>> We'll do a couple disk controllers but if someone wants to add others, >>>> great. Especially if someone wants to add MSCP. We're happy to skip >>>> that one ourselves. >>> I can imagine. MSCP is a large effort. >>> >>> For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks >>> (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over >>> 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. >> >> That's per-drive. Massbus allows for 8 drives per controller. > > Right. But then you also need to remember that there are some slight differences between different type of disks, meaning that in DEC parlance, if you have both an RP06 and an RP07 (for example) on the same massbus, it's called a mixed massbus, which not all OSes supported. > > As far as I can tell, disks fall into two groups, as far as massbus control is concerned. The RM02, RM03, RM05, RM80 and RP07 is one group. > The RP04, RP05, RP06 is another. A few register addresses between the groups are the same, but the actual register at that address is different. But if I remember right, it's registers that have to do with error recovery, so potentially not something people would care about in emulation anyway. But it still means there are different drivers in the OS for them. That sounds right. RSTS/E supports mixed massbus, and supports RP07. At least in the sense of "it definitely works". I don't think it shows up as supported in the documentation, because as far as I remember the RP07 was not actually ever sold as a PDP11 option. But it works just fine on a fast Massbus (one capable of supporting an RM03 rather than just an RM02). In the RSTS/E development group, there was an RP07 which I think was used to hold all the .LST files produced during system build. > > And of course, you also have the TM02/TM03 and TM78, which have yet again different registers on the massbus. Yes. And mixing disk and tape on a massbus is something that I don't think was done on PDP-11s. It certainly could have been done, and it was on VMS and/or TOPS if I remember right. > >> While, MSCP is interesting in that it's somewhat drive independent, it's >> complex and it only really works with newer OS's. > > Well, "newer" in this case is sortof anything beyond the mid 80s. :-) RSTS added MSCP support in V8, so if you want to run V7 you'll want to have a traditional disk emulation. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 23 13:37:07 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:37:07 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <95005A48-F996-49D9-AB59-7161A926D909@comcast.net> References: <56532C61.8070202@froghouse.org> <56534A0F.30500@shiresoft.com> <56535437.4050805@update.uu.se> <95005A48-F996-49D9-AB59-7161A926D909@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56536AE3.5020905@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-23 20:26, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 23, 2015, at 1:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-11-23 18:17, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 11/23/15 9:11 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>> On Nov 23, 2015, at 10:10 AM, David Bridgham wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> However, once we get a prototype doing something interesting, we were >>>>> talking about looking around for people interested in helping out. >>>>> We'll do a couple disk controllers but if someone wants to add others, >>>>> great. Especially if someone wants to add MSCP. We're happy to skip >>>>> that one ourselves. >>>> I can imagine. MSCP is a large effort. >>>> >>>> For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks >>>> (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over >>>> 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. >>> >>> That's per-drive. Massbus allows for 8 drives per controller. >> >> Right. But then you also need to remember that there are some slight differences between different type of disks, meaning that in DEC parlance, if you have both an RP06 and an RP07 (for example) on the same massbus, it's called a mixed massbus, which not all OSes supported. >> >> As far as I can tell, disks fall into two groups, as far as massbus control is concerned. The RM02, RM03, RM05, RM80 and RP07 is one group. >> The RP04, RP05, RP06 is another. A few register addresses between the groups are the same, but the actual register at that address is different. But if I remember right, it's registers that have to do with error recovery, so potentially not something people would care about in emulation anyway. But it still means there are different drivers in the OS for them. > > That sounds right. > > RSTS/E supports mixed massbus, and supports RP07. At least in the sense of "it definitely works". I don't think it shows up as supported in the documentation, because as far as I remember the RP07 was not actually ever sold as a PDP11 option. But it works just fine on a fast Massbus (one capable of supporting an RM03 rather than just an RM02). In the RSTS/E development group, there was an RP07 which I think was used to hold all the .LST files produced during system build. I can't remember if the RP07 shows up as supported on RSX, but I'm pretty sure at least some documents mention it. Like I said, I did run one for a few years. And yes, an RH70 is required. You also need to jumper the RP07 for slow speed (there is documentation inside the RP07 on that, if people actually ever decide to try this). >> And of course, you also have the TM02/TM03 and TM78, which have yet again different registers on the massbus. > > Yes. And mixing disk and tape on a massbus is something that I don't think was done on PDP-11s. It certainly could have been done, and it was on VMS and/or TOPS if I remember right. Oh. It was done. RSX-11M-PLUS (but not 11M) supports it. For disks, I don't think -11M even supports having RP and RM disks on the same massbus. But -11M-PLUS can have both tapes and disks on the same massbus just fine. And it can also deal with devices that are dual-ported on two different massbuses, as long as they end up on the same system. >>> While, MSCP is interesting in that it's somewhat drive independent, it's >>> complex and it only really works with newer OS's. >> >> Well, "newer" in this case is sortof anything beyond the mid 80s. :-) > > RSTS added MSCP support in V8, so if you want to run V7 you'll want to have a traditional disk emulation. Yeah. And unless I remember wrong, V8 came in 1986? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 23 14:02:49 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 15:02:49 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <56536AE3.5020905@update.uu.se> References: <56532C61.8070202@froghouse.org> <56534A0F.30500@shiresoft.com> <56535437.4050805@update.uu.se> <95005A48-F996-49D9-AB59-7161A926D909@comcast.net> <56536AE3.5020905@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4DAE4806-D0B0-4DE6-A4A4-B71167483A02@comcast.net> > On Nov 23, 2015, at 2:37 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > ... >>>> While, MSCP is interesting in that it's somewhat drive independent, it's >>>> complex and it only really works with newer OS's. >>> >>> Well, "newer" in this case is sortof anything beyond the mid 80s. :-) >> >> RSTS added MSCP support in V8, so if you want to run V7 you'll want to have a traditional disk emulation. > > Yeah. And unless I remember wrong, V8 came in 1986? No, 1983. I remembered wrong, though; UDA50 support arrived in RSTS 7.2, in 1982. A nice reference for RSTS history is the wonderfully fictional "RSTS 80th anniversary" document. A copy of it lives here: http://www.silverware.co.uk/rsts_80th_birthday.htm . I don't remember who wrote that; it came out as part of the 20th anniversary celebration, in 1990. In other words, the entries for 1990 and before are basically accurate; everything after that is a product of some very nice imagination. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 23 14:26:12 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:26:12 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <4DAE4806-D0B0-4DE6-A4A4-B71167483A02@comcast.net> References: <56532C61.8070202@froghouse.org> <56534A0F.30500@shiresoft.com> <56535437.4050805@update.uu.se> <95005A48-F996-49D9-AB59-7161A926D909@comcast.net> <56536AE3.5020905@update.uu.se> <4DAE4806-D0B0-4DE6-A4A4-B71167483A02@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56537664.6020303@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-23 21:02, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 23, 2015, at 2:37 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> ... >>>>> While, MSCP is interesting in that it's somewhat drive independent, it's >>>>> complex and it only really works with newer OS's. >>>> >>>> Well, "newer" in this case is sortof anything beyond the mid 80s. :-) >>> >>> RSTS added MSCP support in V8, so if you want to run V7 you'll want to have a traditional disk emulation. >> >> Yeah. And unless I remember wrong, V8 came in 1986? > > No, 1983. I remembered wrong, though; UDA50 support arrived in RSTS 7.2, in 1982. Ouch. I remember when I started playing on a PDP-11, it was an 11/70 running V7.1, and that was in 1982. We upgraded to 7.2 a year later or so, and I remember we upgraded to 8.0, and that must have been 85 come to think of it. But I guess we were a bit behind on the upgrades... I remember that the school upgraded to 9.0 as well, but I had essentially finished at that school then, which was 86. So 9.0 had to be around 86-87? Lots of bit errors in my memories from then. :-) Things have changed... We were 4 schools sharing one 11/70, and we had one RM03 as the disk. Normal disk quota was 20 blocks, but if you really were playing around you could get 100 or 200 blocks of disk quota... People wouldn't believe me if I said that today. RUN $MONEY > A nice reference for RSTS history is the wonderfully fictional "RSTS 80th anniversary" document. A copy of it lives here: http://www.silverware.co.uk/rsts_80th_birthday.htm . I don't remember who wrote that; it came out as part of the 20th anniversary celebration, in 1990. In other words, the entries for 1990 and before are basically accurate; everything after that is a product of some very nice imagination. I've read it. Fun read indeed. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Nov 23 15:54:23 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:54:23 +0000 Subject: mixed media on Massbus [was RE: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC35113@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Paul Koning Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:26 AM >> On Nov 23, 2015, at 1:00 PM, Johnny Billquist > wrote: >> As far as I can tell, disks fall into two groups, as far as massbus control >> is concerned. The RM02, RM03, RM05, RM80 and RP07 is one group. The RP04, >> RP05, RP06 is another. A few register addresses between the groups are the >> same, but the actual register at that address is different. But if I >> remember right, it's registers that have to do with error recovery, so >> potentially not something people would care about in emulation anyway. But >> it still means there are different drivers in the OS for them. [snip] >> And of course, you also have the TM02/TM03 and TM78, which have yet again >> different registers on the massbus. > Yes. And mixing disk and tape on a massbus is something that I don't think > was done on PDP-11s. It certainly could have been done, and it was on VMS > and/or TOPS if I remember right. Two things. 1) There is not such things as "TOPS". The 2 operating systems for the PDP-10 provided by DEC are Tops-10 and TOPS-20. The only thing they have in common is the first 4 letters (modulo case) of the names. They share exactly no code in the monitor ("kernel"), and do not even have the same origins. Tops-10 started as the monitor on the PDP-6, in 1964, and was in continuous development until 1988 (and in maintenance until 1993+), while TOPS-20 began life as the TENEX operating system from BBN c. 1969, licensed for the new KL-10 processor while that was under development. TOPS-20 v1 appeared in 1975. BBN developed a run time package for TENEX called PA1050 which handled a subset of the Tops-10 system calls by merging into user-mode programs and intercepting them; DEC carried on the same mechanism to allow Tops-10 compilers and other utilities to run on the new OS while native versions were developed. 2) Having stated all that, Tops-10 does not allow mixing tapes and disks on a channel, but it does allow mixing disk drive types. TOPS-20 has always allowed mixing tapes and disks on a channel. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From dab at froghouse.org Mon Nov 23 13:30:13 2015 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:30:13 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> > For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. Current thinking (at least my current thinking) is RK11 first then probably RP11, both optionally extended to support Q22 addresses. Also something we're calling the RQ11 which will be our "native" interface with variable sized disks with a 32-bit linear block address giving 2TB disks for those who are willing and able to write their own device drivers. Finally, most likely the RH11 for some Massbus disks with 22-bit addressing. After that, I'm thinking to call it good and move on to other projects though I'm certainly willing to talk to anyone who has a particular disk controller they want to implement. From dab at froghouse.org Mon Nov 23 13:38:07 2015 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:38:07 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: <56536B1F.6060401@froghouse.org> > Otherwise it's the RM05 at 256 Meg, if I remember right. But all those > disks are also expected to expose the actual geometry of the disk. While > fairly straight forward, it do expose you to a rather low level > interface, where you need to do a lot of calculations all the time. All those old disk controllers expose the disk geometry. I've looked at it for the specific case of the RK11 and it doesn't look too bad. If it does turn into a problem, then we'll have a microcontroller on the board too and I'll punt the calculations to it rather than doing them in the FPGA. And my third option is to just do the trivial mapping of the sector/surface/cylinder numbers to LBA and waste space on the flash device. It's not we're so short of storage space in emulating any number of RK, RP, or RM class disk packs. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 23 18:05:36 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 19:05:36 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <56536B1F.6060401@froghouse.org> References: <56536B1F.6060401@froghouse.org> Message-ID: > On Nov 23, 2015, at 2:38 PM, David Bridgham wrote: > >> Otherwise it's the RM05 at 256 Meg, if I remember right. But all those >> disks are also expected to expose the actual geometry of the disk. While >> fairly straight forward, it do expose you to a rather low level >> interface, where you need to do a lot of calculations all the time. > > All those old disk controllers expose the disk geometry. I've looked at > it for the specific case of the RK11 and it doesn't look too bad. If it > does turn into a problem, then we'll have a microcontroller on the board > too and I'll punt the calculations to it rather than doing them in the > FPGA. And my third option is to just do the trivial mapping of the > sector/surface/cylinder numbers to LBA and waste space on the flash > device. It's not we're so short of storage space in emulating any > number of RK, RP, or RM class disk packs. You can certainly do a mapping with holes in it. That does mean you'd want to create a utility that knows how to convert between your holy format and a standard packed disk container file. Then again, multiplying by a constant is trivial, and in a modern HDL you just write the expression you need. The synthesis will construct some adds and shifts out of that. In fact, even if you want to supply the geometry values from a table (so you're multiplying by variable values) that's no big deal; two multipliers won't make a dent in any modern FPGA. Sure, you can throw in a microcontroller, but interfacing that is likely to take far more gates than doing the mapping in the device directly. paul From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Nov 23 18:11:06 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 00:11:06 +0000 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC353F0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: David Bridgham Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:30 AM >> For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks (RP04 >> and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over 500 MB, if >> you emulate the layout of the RP07. > Current thinking (at least my current thinking) is RK11 first then probably > RP11, both optionally extended to support Q22 addresses. Why bother with the RP11? The RP03 gives you a maximum of 40MB (20MW) per disk. > Finally, most likely the RH11 for some Massbus disks with 22-bit addressing. Be careful with the RH11 (and other Massbus interfaces): DEC lied in their published descriptions of the signals. In particular, 2 important ones are interchanged in the tables. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 18:23:21 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:23:21 +1300 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC353F0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC353F0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: David Bridgham > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:30 AM > >>> For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks (RP04 >>> and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over 500 MB, if >>> you emulate the layout of the RP07. > >> Current thinking (at least my current thinking) is RK11 first then probably >> RP11, both optionally extended to support Q22 addresses. > > Why bother with the RP11? The RP03 gives you a maximum of 40MB (20MW) per disk. Because, blinkenlights! :-) There was an RP11, an RP15, and an... RP10? Lots of blinkelights, covers 3 of the 4 main architectures. There IS something neat about retaining enough of the physical side of things to be recognizable in emulation... having a controller box with blinkenlights, and ports into which you plug your RP03s... even if the RP03s are memory sticks and the physical interface is USB... >> Finally, most likely the RH11 for some Massbus disks with 22-bit addressing. > > Be careful with the RH11 (and other Massbus interfaces): DEC lied in their > published descriptions of the signals. In particular, 2 important ones are > interchanged in the tables. I seem to remember Massbus wars, and DEC having a strategy to use IP to lock out plug-compatible competition... was unpublished or inaccurate information part of that, I wonder? Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From dab at froghouse.org Mon Nov 23 18:45:57 2015 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 19:45:57 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <56536B1F.6060401@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <5653B345.1040805@froghouse.org> On 11/23/2015 07:05 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Then again, multiplying by a constant is trivial, and in a modern HDL you just write the expression you need. The synthesis will construct some adds and shifts out of that. In fact, even if you want to supply the geometry values from a table (so you're multiplying by variable values) that's no big deal; two multipliers won't make a dent in any modern FPGA. That's why that's my first choice. I just don't think it will be a problem. > Sure, you can throw in a microcontroller, but interfacing that is likely to take far more gates than doing the mapping in the device directly. The original reason for the microcontroller is to implement the USB protocol. I didn't feel up to that in Verilog. From dab at froghouse.org Mon Nov 23 18:47:38 2015 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 19:47:38 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC353F0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC353F0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5653B3AA.60104@froghouse.org> On 11/23/2015 07:11 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Be careful with the RH11 (and other Massbus interfaces): DEC lied in their > published descriptions of the signals. In particular, 2 important ones are > interchanged in the tables. Ugh. No doubt I'll learn far more of these sorts of little tidbits than I wish by the end of the project. When I get to the RH11, I'll try to remember this and come asking for details. Thanks, Dave From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 23 18:51:49 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 19:51:49 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <5653B345.1040805@froghouse.org> References: <56536B1F.6060401@froghouse.org> <5653B345.1040805@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <19E53D68-B17F-4D2E-A4C2-180E9DC1A565@comcast.net> > On Nov 23, 2015, at 7:45 PM, David Bridgham wrote: > > On 11/23/2015 07:05 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > ... >> Sure, you can throw in a microcontroller, but interfacing that is likely to take far more gates than doing the mapping in the device directly. > > The original reason for the microcontroller is to implement the USB > protocol. I didn't feel up to that in Verilog. I can understand that, but surely that's an off the shelf item? paul From dab at froghouse.org Mon Nov 23 19:34:53 2015 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:34:53 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <19E53D68-B17F-4D2E-A4C2-180E9DC1A565@comcast.net> References: <56536B1F.6060401@froghouse.org> <5653B345.1040805@froghouse.org> <19E53D68-B17F-4D2E-A4C2-180E9DC1A565@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5653BEBD.8000702@froghouse.org> On 11/23/15 19:51, Paul Koning wrote: > I can understand that, but surely that's an off the shelf item? An implementation of the host side of the USB mass storage protocol? In what form: an IC, IP for the FPGA, software? I'm sure the last one exists but if either of the first do, I don't know about them (not that I know a lot about what's available). From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Nov 23 20:28:17 2015 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 02:28:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy to behold.? If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a minimalistic education-oriented language and operating system designed after Wirth had taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the 80's. The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an FPGA, instead of the NS3032 in the orginal Ceres workstations.?? Originally, it required a Digilent "Spartan 3 Starter Kit" with a custom-built daughterboard providing a few additional connectors.? This board is no longer made, however, and no other FPGA development board appears to provide the 32-bit wide fast SRAM the Oberon CPU required. Recently, a new board, the OberonStation,? has come onto the market that was designed specifically for Oberon, and will boot up Oberon 2013 out of the box.?? It also looks like an excellent platform for other retro-style FPGA CPU designs that want to stay away from complex SDRAM controllers and the caches they like to feed. My OberonStation arrived a couple of days ago, and it's really amazing to see what can be done with a hardware and software stack that is small enough to actually read and understand. https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ http://www.projectoberon.com/ OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform --Bill | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform/*{{{*/* html .tiddler {height:1%;}body {font-size:.75em; font-family:arial,helvetica; margin:0; padding:0;}h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6 {font-weight:bold; | | | | View on oberonstation.x10.mx | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Nov 23 20:47:09 2015 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 02:47:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) References: <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> [Yahoo's webmail client garbled the last link -- resending] The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy to behold.? If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a minimalistic education-oriented language and operating system designed after Wirth had taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the 80's. The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an FPGA, instead of the NS3032 in the orginal Ceres workstations.?? Originally, it required a Digilent "Spartan 3 Starter Kit" with a custom-built daughterboard providing a few additional connectors.? This board is no longer made, however, and no other FPGA development board appears to provide the 32-bit wide fast SRAM the Oberon CPU required. Recently, a new board, the OberonStation,? has come onto the market that was designed specifically for Oberon, and will boot up Oberon 2013 out of the box.?? It also looks like an excellent platform for other retro-style FPGA CPU designs that want to stay away from complex SDRAM controllers and the caches they like to feed. My OberonStation arrived a couple of days ago, and it's really amazing to see what can be done with a hardware and software stack that is small enough to actually read and understand. https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ http://www.projectoberon.com/ http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 23 21:11:02 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:11:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an FPGA, ins$ Is the FPGA documented? Or is it yet another "run this binary-only (and usually Windows-only) program to get an undocumented blob to feed to the hardware" FPGA? I've been semi-looking for the former for quite some time, to no avail so far. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cube1 at charter.net Mon Nov 23 21:18:52 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:18:52 -0600 Subject: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5653D71C.9050300@charter.net> Perhaps Oberon required something faster than the 70ns - 85ns tRC read cycle / tWC write cycle times supported by the Micron cellular RAM running in asynchronous mode on the Nexys 2 - presumably because the data path is only 16 bits? That said, most "retro" computing would, I expect, be perfectly happy with that kind of cycle time and bus width, yes? And the implementation in this asynch. mode is very very easy - classic SRAM interface signals. Looks like the Nexys 3 and Nexys 4 boards have cellular RAM like this as well. JRJ On 11/23/2015 8:47 PM, William Maddox wrote: > [Yahoo's webmail client garbled the last link -- resending] > The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy to behold. If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a minimalistic education-oriented language and operating system designed after Wirth had taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the 80's. > The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an FPGA, instead of the NS3032 in the orginal Ceres workstations. Originally, it required a Digilent "Spartan 3 Starter Kit" with a custom-built daughterboard providing a few additional connectors. This board is no longer made, however, and no other FPGA development board appears to provide the 32-bit wide fast SRAM the Oberon CPU required. > Recently, a new board, the OberonStation, has come onto the market that was designed specifically for Oberon, and will boot up Oberon 2013 out of the box. It also looks like an excellent platform for other retro-style FPGA CPU designs that want to stay away from complex SDRAM controllers and the caches they like to feed. > > My OberonStation arrived a couple of days ago, and it's really amazing to see what can be done with a hardware and software stack that is small enough to actually read and understand. > https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ > > http://www.projectoberon.com/ > http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Nov 23 21:50:42 2015 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 03:50:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <277667814.9717954.1448337042465.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> There is reputedly an open-source toolchain for the Lattice ICE40, based on reverse-engineering the bitstream: http://hackaday.com/2015/05/29/an-open-source-toolchain-for-ice40-fpgas/ Industry leaders Xilinx and Altera remain closed as always. --Bill From: Mouse To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 7:11 PM Subject: Re: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) > The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an FPGA, ins$ Is the FPGA documented?? Or is it yet another "run this binary-only (and usually Windows-only) program to get an undocumented blob to feed to the hardware" FPGA?? I've been semi-looking for the former for quite some time, to no avail so far. /~\ The ASCII??? ??? ??? ??? ? Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X? Against HTML??? ??? mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email!??? ? ? 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39? 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 23 21:59:10 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:59:10 -0500 Subject: Altera Quartus - was Re: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5653E08E.70502@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-11-23 10:11 PM, Mouse wrote: >> The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an FPGA, ins$ > > Is the FPGA documented? Or is it yet another "run this binary-only > (and usually Windows-only) program Although not always. It's gratifying to see Altera Quartus runs on Linux. --Toby > to get an undocumented blob to feed > to the hardware" FPGA? I've been semi-looking for the former for quite > some time, to no avail so far. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From kurtk7 at visi.com Mon Nov 23 22:26:51 2015 From: kurtk7 at visi.com (Kurt K) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:26:51 -0600 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Where did you order the Oberon Station. I didn't see a link off the project page. > On Nov 23, 2015, at 8:28 PM, William Maddox wrote: > > > The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy to behold. If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a minimalistic education-oriented language and operating system designed after Wirth had taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the 80's. > > The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an FPGA, instead of the NS3032 in the orginal Ceres workstations. Originally, it required a Digilent "Spartan 3 Starter Kit" with a custom-built daughterboard providing a few additional connectors. This board is no longer made, however, and no other FPGA development board appears to provide the 32-bit wide fast SRAM the Oberon CPU required. > Recently, a new board, the OberonStation, has come onto the market that was designed specifically for Oberon, and will boot up Oberon 2013 out of the box. It also looks like an excellent platform for other retro-style FPGA CPU designs that want to stay away from complex SDRAM controllers and the caches they like to feed. > > My OberonStation arrived a couple of days ago, and it's really amazing to see what can be done with a hardware and software stack that is small enough to actually read and understand. > https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ > > http://www.projectoberon.com/ > > OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform > --Bill > > | | > | | | | | | > | OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform/*{{{*/* html .tiddler {height:1%;}body {font-size:.75em; font-family:arial,helvetica; margin:0; padding:0;}h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6 {font-weight:bold; | > | | > | View on oberonstation.x10.mx | Preview by Yahoo | > | | > | | > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 23 23:19:16 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 23:19:16 -0600 Subject: Altera Quartus - was Re: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: <5653E08E.70502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2036398203.9707227.1448333229887.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5653E08E.70502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5653F354.1050103@pico-systems.com> On 11/23/2015 09:59 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > Although not always. It's gratifying to see Altera Quartus > runs on Linux. > Xilinx Ise also has run on Linux for at least 5 years now. The webpack version is free, and supports up to fairly large devices. Jon From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Nov 24 01:45:22 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 07:45:22 +0000 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for letting us know about this William - I'm sure there is still plenty of interest in Oberon, Modula-2, Modula-3 and other derivatives. On 24 November 2015 at 04:26, Kurt K wrote: > Where did you order the Oberon Station. I didn't see a link off the > project page. > > > On Nov 23, 2015, at 8:28 PM, William Maddox wrote: > > > > > > The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy to > behold. If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a minimalistic > education-oriented language and operating system designed after Wirth had > taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the 80's. > > > > The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an FPGA, > instead of the NS3032 in the orginal Ceres workstations. Originally, it > required a Digilent "Spartan 3 Starter Kit" with a custom-built > daughterboard providing a few additional connectors. This board is no > longer made, however, and no other FPGA development board appears to > provide the 32-bit wide fast SRAM the Oberon CPU required. > > Recently, a new board, the OberonStation, has come onto the market that > was designed specifically for Oberon, and will boot up Oberon 2013 out of > the box. It also looks like an excellent platform for other retro-style > FPGA CPU designs that want to stay away from complex SDRAM controllers and > the caches they like to feed. > > > > My OberonStation arrived a couple of days ago, and it's really amazing > to see what can be done with a hardware and software stack that is small > enough to actually read and understand. > > https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ > > > > http://www.projectoberon.com/ > > > > OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform > > --Bill > > > > | | > > | | | | | | > > | OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform/*{{{*/* html .tiddler > {height:1%;}body {font-size:.75em; font-family:arial,helvetica; margin:0; > padding:0;}h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6 {font-weight:bold; | > > | | > > | View on oberonstation.x10.mx | Preview by Yahoo | > > | | > > | | > > > > > > > > > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Nov 24 01:46:12 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 07:46:12 +0000 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In answer to Kurts question - the link with boards to purchase is here: http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ On 24 November 2015 at 07:45, Mark Wickens wrote: > Thanks for letting us know about this William - I'm sure there is still > plenty of interest in Oberon, Modula-2, Modula-3 and other derivatives. > > On 24 November 2015 at 04:26, Kurt K wrote: > >> Where did you order the Oberon Station. I didn't see a link off the >> project page. >> >> > On Nov 23, 2015, at 8:28 PM, William Maddox >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy to >> behold. If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a minimalistic >> education-oriented language and operating system designed after Wirth had >> taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the 80's. >> > >> > The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an >> FPGA, instead of the NS3032 in the orginal Ceres workstations. >> Originally, it required a Digilent "Spartan 3 Starter Kit" with a >> custom-built daughterboard providing a few additional connectors. This >> board is no longer made, however, and no other FPGA development board >> appears to provide the 32-bit wide fast SRAM the Oberon CPU required. >> > Recently, a new board, the OberonStation, has come onto the market >> that was designed specifically for Oberon, and will boot up Oberon 2013 out >> of the box. It also looks like an excellent platform for other >> retro-style FPGA CPU designs that want to stay away from complex SDRAM >> controllers and the caches they like to feed. >> > >> > My OberonStation arrived a couple of days ago, and it's really amazing >> to see what can be done with a hardware and software stack that is small >> enough to actually read and understand. >> > https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ >> > >> > http://www.projectoberon.com/ >> > >> > OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform >> > --Bill >> > >> > | | >> > | | | | | | >> > | OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform/*{{{*/* html .tiddler >> {height:1%;}body {font-size:.75em; font-family:arial,helvetica; margin:0; >> padding:0;}h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6 {font-weight:bold; | >> > | | >> > | View on oberonstation.x10.mx | Preview by Yahoo | >> > | | >> > | | >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 24 01:46:54 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:46:54 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-23 20:30, David Bridgham wrote: >> For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. > > Current thinking (at least my current thinking) is RK11 first then > probably RP11, both optionally extended to support Q22 addresses. Also > something we're calling the RQ11 which will be our "native" interface > with variable sized disks with a 32-bit linear block address giving 2TB > disks for those who are willing and able to write their own device > drivers. Finally, most likely the RH11 for some Massbus disks with > 22-bit addressing. After that, I'm thinking to call it good and move on > to other projects though I'm certainly willing to talk to anyone who has > a particular disk controller they want to implement. 22-bit addressing is not possible on the Unibus. The RH70, which is the massbus controller for the 11/70 do 22-bit addressing, but it manages that by not sitting on the Unibus. Your native interface have the additional problem that in addition to requiring people to write their own device driver for any OS usage, it will be rather difficult to get booting from it, since that require special support. RK11 and RP11, while fairly simple, are also very small devices. Is that useful for anything beyond it being a fun exercise? Massbus is a bit more useful, as it at least gives some larger devices, but you need to implement each device. Each has its own device identity, with its own geometry, which you need to support. There is some rather non-generic things around massbus. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From radioengr at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 03:01:00 2015 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 02:01:00 -0700 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5654274C.10207@gmail.com> On 11/24/2015 12:46 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-11-23 20:30, David Bridgham wrote: >>> For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus >>> disks (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take >>> you just over 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. >> >> Current thinking (at least my current thinking) is RK11 first then >> probably RP11, both optionally extended to support Q22 addresses. >> Also something we're calling the RQ11 which will be our "native" >> interface with variable sized disks with a 32-bit linear block >> address giving 2TB disks for those who are willing and able to >> write their own device drivers. Finally, most likely the RH11 for >> some Massbus disks with 22-bit addressing. After that, I'm >> thinking to call it good and move on to other projects though I'm >> certainly willing to talk to anyone who has a particular disk >> controller they want to implement. > > 22-bit addressing is not possible on the Unibus. The RH70, which is > the massbus controller for the 11/70 do 22-bit addressing, but it > manages that by not sitting on the Unibus. The RH11 has 'paging' on the controller. It can translate between Unibus addresses and memory addresses. > Your native interface have the additional problem that in addition to > requiring people to write their own device driver for any OS usage, > it will be rather difficult to get booting from it, since that > require special support. > > RK11 and RP11, while fairly simple, are also very small devices. Is > that useful for anything beyond it being a fun exercise? Massbus is a > bit more useful, as it at least gives some larger devices, but you > need to implement each device. Each has its own device identity, with > its own geometry, which you need to support. There is some rather > non-generic things around massbus. > > Johnny Rob. From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 24 04:13:01 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:13:01 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <5654274C.10207@gmail.com> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <5654274C.10207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5654382D.5090805@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-24 10:01, Rob Doyle wrote: > On 11/24/2015 12:46 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-11-23 20:30, David Bridgham wrote: >>>> For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus >>>> disks (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take >>>> you just over 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. >>> >>> Current thinking (at least my current thinking) is RK11 first then >>> probably RP11, both optionally extended to support Q22 addresses. >>> Also something we're calling the RQ11 which will be our "native" >>> interface with variable sized disks with a 32-bit linear block >>> address giving 2TB disks for those who are willing and able to >>> write their own device drivers. Finally, most likely the RH11 for >>> some Massbus disks with 22-bit addressing. After that, I'm >>> thinking to call it good and move on to other projects though I'm >>> certainly willing to talk to anyone who has a particular disk >>> controller they want to implement. >> >> 22-bit addressing is not possible on the Unibus. The RH70, which is >> the massbus controller for the 11/70 do 22-bit addressing, but it >> manages that by not sitting on the Unibus. > > The RH11 has 'paging' on the controller. It can translate between Unibus > addresses and memory addresses. I don't understand what you mean by that. The RH11 do DMA, just like all other disk controllers I know of. The Unibus only have 18 address bits. Thus, it is impossible to do 22-bit addressing for any controller on the Unibus. No matter what the controller do internally. Unibus machines with a 22-bit memory address use soemthing called a Unibus map to translate the 18-bit Unibus address into a 22-bit memory address when you perform DMA. The Unibus map is a part of the computer, and the controller on the Unibus do not even know it exists. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 07:51:53 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:51:53 +0100 Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms In-Reply-To: <56503916.9080902@dds.nl> References: <01PTCPVRPSFA00AA8M@beyondthepale.ie> <56503916.9080902@dds.nl> Message-ID: On 21 November 2015 at 10:27, simon wrote: > I am very curious as what you are talking about. Is it something with html > in mail? I configured thunderbird to only show me plain text so I can focus > on the content and not some graphic noise. I don't know what they're talking about either. Cory's email looked normal to me, except for the top-quoting. Speaking of which, Simon, if you are using Thunderbird then you have ABSOLUTELY NO excuse for top-quoting. Please do it right. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 07:52:55 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:52:55 +0100 Subject: Emulation In-Reply-To: <565093F8.2030102@arachelian.com> References: <56508AC5.8060504@wulfman.com> <565093F8.2030102@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 21 November 2015 at 16:55, Ray Arachelian wrote: > What you really want is the MESS project, http://www.mess.org/ - which > is part of MAME and has retro computer emulators. Not any more, no. As Al K said, MESS has now been merged into MAME. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 24 09:43:24 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:43:24 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > On Nov 24, 2015, at 2:46 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-11-23 20:30, David Bridgham wrote: >>> For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. >> >> Current thinking (at least my current thinking) is RK11 first then >> probably RP11, both optionally extended to support Q22 addresses. Also >> something we're calling the RQ11 which will be our "native" interface >> with variable sized disks with a 32-bit linear block address giving 2TB >> disks for those who are willing and able to write their own device >> drivers. Finally, most likely the RH11 for some Massbus disks with >> 22-bit addressing. After that, I'm thinking to call it good and move on >> to other projects though I'm certainly willing to talk to anyone who has >> a particular disk controller they want to implement. > > 22-bit addressing is not possible on the Unibus. To elaborate, since this seems to be an area where people get confused: 1. Unibus has 18 bit addresses, with the CSR addresses in the top 4k words and the remaining 128 kW for memory. 2. In 22 bit PDP-11s with a Unibus, there is a Unibus Map between the CPU bus and the Unibus, which maps Unibus references that ask for memory addresses (i.e., the bottom 31 pages) into 22 bit memory addresses. That allows Unibus DMA to any memory address. 3. The Q-bus comes in 2 (or 3?) flavors, the original with 18 bit addresses, and the Q22 bus with 22 bit addresses. If you have a 22 bit PDP-11 with Q-bus, you have a Q22 bus. There is nothing analogous to the Unibus Map in the Qbus world; on the QBus, DMA is always to the memory address specified. > The RH70, which is the massbus controller for the 11/70 do 22-bit addressing, but it manages that by not sitting on the Unibus. It feels a bit like Q22 devices, in fact: the buffer memory address is a 22 bit value, not an 18 bit value. > Your native interface have the additional problem that in addition to requiring people to write their own device driver for any OS usage, it will be rather difficult to get booting from it, since that require special support. Not only that, but depending on the OS, there may be no feasible way to do that driver work. For example, in RSTS you'd need to write both a boot driver and an OS driver, both of which requires having the source kit, and none of which is documented anywhere. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 24 09:55:10 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:55:10 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5654885E.2030306@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-24 16:43, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 24, 2015, at 2:46 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-11-23 20:30, David Bridgham wrote: >>>> For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. >>> >>> Current thinking (at least my current thinking) is RK11 first then >>> probably RP11, both optionally extended to support Q22 addresses. Also >>> something we're calling the RQ11 which will be our "native" interface >>> with variable sized disks with a 32-bit linear block address giving 2TB >>> disks for those who are willing and able to write their own device >>> drivers. Finally, most likely the RH11 for some Massbus disks with >>> 22-bit addressing. After that, I'm thinking to call it good and move on >>> to other projects though I'm certainly willing to talk to anyone who has >>> a particular disk controller they want to implement. >> >> 22-bit addressing is not possible on the Unibus. > > To elaborate, since this seems to be an area where people get confused: Thanks. Yes, people do seem to be confused. > 1. Unibus has 18 bit addresses, with the CSR addresses in the top 4k words and the remaining 128 kW for memory. 124 kw, but I would hope that everyone guessed that. :-) > 2. In 22 bit PDP-11s with a Unibus, there is a Unibus Map between the CPU bus and the Unibus, which maps Unibus references that ask for memory addresses (i.e., the bottom 31 pages) into 22 bit memory addresses. That allows Unibus DMA to any memory address. Or between the memory bus and the Unibus, if we talk 11/70. (I wouldn't actually know the proper name for whatever it is on an 11/24 or 11/44, but CPU bus would suffice, I'd say. On the 11/84 and 11/94 it's the PMI bus, which I'm fine with calling the CPU bus here.) The Unibus map actually covers all 32 address areas, but noone normally do DMA to the top "page", which would be the I/O page on an 18-bit system. And it can become even more weird on an 11/70 system, since there is actually also an I/O space on the memory bus. So better just use the 31 first mappings, and ignore the 32nd, unless you are looking to do very specific odd things. > 3. The Q-bus comes in 2 (or 3?) flavors, the original with 18 bit addresses, and the Q22 bus with 22 bit addresses. If you have a 22 bit PDP-11 with Q-bus, you have a Q22 bus. There is nothing analogous to the Unibus Map in the Qbus world; on the QBus, DMA is always to the memory address specified. I think the orignial original was 16 bits, but you then had the brief 18-bit version before the 22-bit final iteration. >> The RH70, which is the massbus controller for the 11/70 do 22-bit addressing, but it manages that by not sitting on the Unibus. > > It feels a bit like Q22 devices, in fact: the buffer memory address is a 22 bit value, not an 18 bit value. It is actually also a bit weird, since the RH70 presents both the A16,A17 in the RH11 compatible form, and A16-A21, at the same time, in a different register which only exists on the RH70. >> Your native interface have the additional problem that in addition to requiring people to write their own device driver for any OS usage, it will be rather difficult to get booting from it, since that require special support. > > Not only that, but depending on the OS, there may be no feasible way to do that driver work. For example, in RSTS you'd need to write both a boot driver and an OS driver, both of which requires having the source kit, and none of which is documented anywhere. Yeah. On RSX, writing devices drivers is well documented. However, if you want to write a device driver for a device you want to boot from, you need to modify SAV as well, which is *not* documented, and very non-trivial. Not recommended for the faint of heart. Johnny From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 24 09:55:26 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:55:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201511241555.KAA24900@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > 3. The Q-bus comes in 2 (or 3?) flavors, the original with 18 bit addresses,$ I wouldn't go that far. I would say the MicroVAX-II counts as "in the Qbus world", and it has hardware to map Qbus memory space accesses to memory accesses, rather like the Unibus Map you sketch. DMA is "always to the memory address specified" only if you never look past the Qbus view of the world; from the CPU's point of view, Qbus DMA addresses get remapped before hitting memory. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 24 10:14:02 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:14:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: <20151124161402.0FB7918C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> {Catching up, after being on the road all day yesterday... Replies to quite a few people in this, sorry you'll have to read through it to find yours, didn't want to inundate the list with 17 replies.} > From: Jacob Ritort > Are you on keeping bits and/or status for these projects on github or > anywhere else that might encourage participation and contribution? We're going to make it public, but at the moment, it's a bit early for that; for one thing, we are working with hand-wire-wrapped prototypes, front-ending a ZTEX FPGA/uC (micro-controller) board, not a PCB card. And the 'software' (which includes FPGA code, we don't have any code for the uC yet) is in a very primitive state. We'll probably get a couple of controllers done (RK11, RP11, probably RL11, qetc) and then turn it loose for people to add others. > I'd be glad to pitch in if I can. We we get to the stage of turning it into a production PCB, we are definitely going to really encourage help for that step - doing PCB layout, etc, is sort of terra incognita for us both. > Actually, I (and I bet others) would love to see an up to date wiki > entry or somesuch listing folks' retro projects like these Well, we'd need the wiki first! But I hope to have some news on that front soon - I've located an existing one, and am discussing with the person who runs it, using it for material from CCTalk. > From: Henk Gooijen > Tell us more ... and keep us posted Noel. Not much more to say, at the moment. The plan is that it will be a dual QBUS card, with slots for two SD cards, and also one (or more) USB 2.0 connectors; although it will be possible to plug in memory sticks (to the USB), the SD cards will probably offer higher performance. Oh, and one will be able to configure virtual disks on on-board RAM; the contents won't survive a power cycle, but they will be very high performance, useful for swapping disks. We will definitely keep CCTalk posted when there is any news. > We *love* blinkenlights !! Why do you think they are in our plan? :-) We love them too! :-) > if you have a blank front panel this "fills nicely" Well, like the originals, they will be half-panels (i.e. 5-1/4 inches). They will not be electrically compatible with the original DEC indicator panels (we plan on driving them like Guy, with just a clock and data on a couple of wires, not one wire per light - in fact, I'd like to use a common connector and electrical spec with Guy's, so they are compatible); making them electrically compatible would be a _lot_ of work, and I don't see that it would be worth it. However, they will be mechanically compatible with the DEC originals; our plan is that if someone has an original indicator panel PCB (I know at least one person here does), they could mount it with one of our new production bezel/inserts (with the light captions on it), and the whole thing will work. I.e. in the original DEC design, we're just replacing the PCB. > Heck, why not address (all 22) and data too? Although 'classic' RP11/etc panels will probably be available (for purists), we intend to also do 'updated' panels which will drop a lot of lights that make no sense when you don't have a real disk (e.g. the shift registers) and replace them with useful lights that the originals don't have (e.g. full memory address, on the RP11). > From: Paul Koning > For a classic/straightforward programming interface, the Massbus disks > (RP04 and successors) are a good choice. That will take you just over > 500 MB, if you emulate the layout of the RP07. We'll probably do those too, but before that, we're thinking of doing an RP11+, i.e. an RP11 with the cyclinder address extended to 16 bits; i.e without changing the register format _other than using unused bits_ in the cyclinder address register. (Very easy for us to do, of course.) For those with the ability to tweak drivers, that will produce disks with 2^28 blocks, or 2^36 bytes, or 64GB. That's most of a large SD card... :-) > Sure, you can throw in a microcontroller, but interfacing that is > likely to take far more gates than doing the mapping in the device > directly. Alas, we pretty much have to have a uC; it's pretty much mandator to support USB. And once you have one, there's a lot of stuff that's easier to do in a uC, e.g. reading the configuration of the virtual controllers, and configuring the FPGA to match, etc, etc. > From: Rich Alderson > Why bother with the RP11? Because, for FPGA implementation, it's basically an RK11 with a few tweaks --> very easy to do! And with the RP11+ variant, it will support up to 65GB disks.. :-) > From: Mike Ross > Because, blinkenlights! :-) That too! Although there's nothing to stop us doing light panels for controllers that never had them, e.g. RL11's! > From: Johnny Billquist > 22-bit addressing is not possible on the Unibus. True, but my concept is that the eventual UNIBUS version will include ENABLE functionality (i.e. mapping boxes to 4MB memory, one for the CPU, and an 11/70-compatible UNIBUS map for DMA devices), and it could therefore _also_ 'emulate' a MASSBUS RP11, i.e. an RP11 with an additional 'extended memory address' like the identical registers on e.g. the MASSBUS RP04. (And yes, I know no such device ever existed, so unmodified DEC OS's won't support it, but...). > Your native interface have the additional problem that in addition to > requiring people to write their own device driver for any OS usage, it > will be rather difficult to get booting from it, since that require > special support. Right, but since adding another controller on the QSIC will be a trivial configuration option, we assume no machines will have _only_ an RQ11 (our aname for the 'native' interface), but rather an RK11 and RQ11, RL11 and RQ11 etc. Boot off the first, only use the second once the OS is running. > RK11 and RP11, while fairly simple, are also very small devices. Well, there's always the RP11+! :-) And the 'RPV21' (again, I know this never existed) will, like the RLV21, have native 22-bit addressing. > Massbus is a bit more useful, as it at least gives some larger devices, > but you need to implement each device. It's all 'software' (in the FPGA and the uC); so if we (in the community sense) upgrade the 'software' to support more controllers/disks, all boards could be upgraded to support them. Let's get the RK11 and RP11 working to start with, and then we'll figure out where to go from there. > However, if you want to write a device driver for a device you want to > boot from, you need to modify SAV as well, which is *not* documented, > and very non-trivial. Not recommended for the faint of heart. Which is why it's probably easier to just _also_ configure a standard RK11/RP11 whatever, and boot off that. (It's all 'software'! With the right FPGA load, you could have 127 RK11 controllers! :-) Noel From phil at ultimate.com Tue Nov 24 11:01:04 2015 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:01:04 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <20151124161402.0FB7918C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151124161402.0FB7918C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201511241701.tAOH1489082400@ultimate.com> Noel, Any plans to allow USB "target" (as opposed to "host" -- I dunno if those are the correct terms) to allow the board to be connected to a modern computer as a peripheral? phil From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 11:20:23 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:20:23 -0600 Subject: HTTPS and man-in-the-middle - was Re: new message In-Reply-To: References: <00005856bc39$b62bb25d$ec7103ca$@trouts.org> <56452351.1000105@wulfman.com> <56454536.1050003@sbcglobal.net> <564546D4.10901@wulfman.com> <56454A8C.8050609@sbcglobal.net> <000801d11dc3$03cb7a30$0b626e90$@classiccmp.org> <5645EFEC.7030502@sbcglobal.net> <56461DE4.4070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <56462D57.6030605@sydex.com> <20151122061445.GF10191@gmail.com> <565225E2.5070007@oryx.us> <67571F95-5F56-455E-B262-3168CFF9A189@comcast.net> <201511222225.RAA26995@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56525B4C.3030100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 12:16 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > Man this has turned in a hackerspace discussion on security > On Nov 22, 2015 10:18 PM, "Dave Wade" wrote: > And here's today's installment: Dell has been found to be including an easily cloned root certificate on its laptops, similar to the Lenovo Superfish debacle: http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/11/dell-does-superfish-ships-pcs-with-self-signed-root-certificates/ > > > For outbound TMG needs a browser plugin. For inbound its usual to > terminate > > the SSL on the TMG firewall and then TMG opens a new SSL session to the > > backend web server. For this to work TMG needs to have a copy of the > > certificate including the private key. Wildcard certs are commonly used > > with TMG but having a FQDN only guarantees the server is under control of > > the certificate owner. You can have multiple sites on the same server, or > > have a single site load balanced across multiple servers. SQUID will do > the > > same trick, but I have always run squid on the same box as the web farm, > > but this isn't required... > > On Nov 23, 2015 5:48 AM, "Toby Thain" wrote: > > > > > On 2015-11-22 5:25 PM, Mouse wrote: > > > > > >> https is supposed to prevent "man in the middle" attacks, provided you > > >>> enfor$ > > >>> > > >> > > >> That was the original theory, as I understand it. > > >> > > >> But there are way too many "in most browsers by default" CAs that are > > >> willing to sell wildcard certs such as can be used for MitM attacks > > >> without disturbing cert validity checks. I even recall hearing of > some > > >> caching proxy (squid maybe?) that, out of the box, could use such a > > >> > > > > > > Microsoft Forefront TMG maybe? > > > > > > > > > http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/itanswers/https-inspection-within-forefront-threat-management-gateway-2010/ > > > > > > --Toby > > > > > > > > > cert to provide caching for HTTPS connections - they're that common. > > >> ... > > >> > > >> /~\ The ASCII Mouse > > >> \ / Ribbon Campaign > > >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > > >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > >> > > >> > > > > > > -- Eric Christopherson From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 24 11:39:38 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:39:38 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <5654885E.2030306@update.uu.se> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <5654885E.2030306@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <6AA49945-D7C4-4721-9D85-789303F73EE3@comcast.net> > On Nov 24, 2015, at 10:55 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-11-24 16:43, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> ... >> To elaborate, since this seems to be an area where people get confused: > > Thanks. Yes, people do seem to be confused. > >> 1. Unibus has 18 bit addresses, with the CSR addresses in the top 4k words and the remaining 128 kW for memory. > > 124 kw, but I would hope that everyone guessed that. :-) Oops. > >> 2. In 22 bit PDP-11s with a Unibus, there is a Unibus Map between the CPU bus and the Unibus, which maps Unibus references that ask for memory addresses (i.e., the bottom 31 pages) into 22 bit memory addresses. That allows Unibus DMA to any memory address. > > Or between the memory bus and the Unibus, if we talk 11/70. > (I wouldn't actually know the proper name for whatever it is on an 11/24 or 11/44, but CPU bus would suffice, I'd say. On the 11/84 and 11/94 it's the PMI bus, which I'm fine with calling the CPU bus here.) > > The Unibus map actually covers all 32 address areas, but noone normally do DMA to the top "page", which would be the I/O page on an 18-bit system. And it can become even more weird on an 11/70 system, since there is actually also an I/O space on the memory bus. So better just use the 31 first mappings, and ignore the 32nd, unless you are looking to do very specific odd things. It depends on how you count. There are 31 relocation registers in the UBM, for the 31 pages below 124 kW. The top page (the I/O page) is not all that well described in the PDP-11/70 handbook, but it implies that it's a hardwired mapping to the I/O page range of the memory bus, and can be used to reach CSRs on that side from the Unibus. Yes, "odd things" indeed. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 24 11:47:56 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:47:56 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <201511241555.KAA24900@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <201511241555.KAA24900@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5654A2CC.6050105@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-24 16:55, Mouse wrote: >> 3. The Q-bus comes in 2 (or 3?) flavors, the original with 18 bit addresses,$ > > I wouldn't go that far. I would say the MicroVAX-II counts as "in the > Qbus world", and it has hardware to map Qbus memory space accesses to > memory accesses, rather like the Unibus Map you sketch. DMA is "always > to the memory address specified" only if you never look past the Qbus > view of the world; from the CPU's point of view, Qbus DMA addresses get > remapped before hitting memory. Right. Well, Paul did talk about the PDP-11 and the Qbus in it's "normal" form. All VAXen (beyond the uVAX I) use the Qbus only as an I/O bus, while memory sits on PMI. So then we're back to the same thing as with the Unibus thingy, where DMA have to go through a remapping, since the system actually have more address bits than the I/O bus. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 24 11:53:20 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:53:20 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <20151124161402.0FB7918C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151124161402.0FB7918C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5654A410.1070803@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-24 17:14, Noel Chiappa wrote: > {Catching up, after being on the road all day yesterday... Replies > to quite a few people in this, sorry you'll have to read through it > to find yours, didn't want to inundate the list with 17 replies.} > [snip] > > However, if you want to write a device driver for a device you want to > > boot from, you need to modify SAV as well, which is *not* documented, > > and very non-trivial. Not recommended for the faint of heart. > > Which is why it's probably easier to just _also_ configure a standard > RK11/RP11 whatever, and boot off that. (It's all 'software'! With the > right FPGA load, you could have 127 RK11 controllers! :-) 127 RK11 controllers are not going to be nice. Most OSes will not support that many controllers of any kind, and you'll also run into issues with the vector space. Not to mention that juggling with lots of small disks to fit your system would be horrible. Just sayin'... :-) Johnny From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 24 12:48:09 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:48:09 -0800 Subject: IBM System/32 available In-Reply-To: <79D45F88-9973-4C75-B80B-C7C2706FA7AF@nf6x.net> References: <20151104210715.GA7236@RawFedDogs.net> <374B8F8A-E312-4452-894C-3759C8802E54@nf6x.net> <563BE0D2.7000306@bitsavers.org> <7C4CC0D3-4BCF-4F52-B86B-D58D3B731BDD@nf6x.net> <8E3B3299-EABC-4479-8AE3-5515AD8DA430@nf6x.net> <563C1C11.5000905@shiresoft.com> <6E9E04CC-F04E-4AEA-ABC9-C6D06BE42E25@nf6x.net> <7591E9C3-5EF0-4145-9B74-DFF04E194962@nf6x.net> <56415C31.5070908@connorsdomain.com> <5642138D.2060206@gmail.com> <79D45F88-9973-4C75-B80B-C7C2706FA7AF@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <1405380D-8498-4F40-AA38-4C7AAF2B478C@nf6x.net> I just emailed the seller of this system to see if it has been purchased yet. They say it's still available, and they're thinking of putting it on eBay. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From tingox at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 13:37:00 2015 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:37:00 +0100 Subject: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: <277667814.9717954.1448337042465.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <277667814.9717954.1448337042465.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just in case anyone wonders, the Oberonstation uses a Xilinx XC3S700AN aka Spartan-3 FPGA. So far, I haven't found anything that says that the code for the FPGA is open source / documented. Ok, scratch that, I was looking at the http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ site. Over at http://www.projectoberon.com/ there are a link to "OberonStation Verilog Source" which is a zip file. There is a readme file which describes how to build this with the Xilinx tools too. Nice. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 24 13:56:31 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:56:31 -0800 Subject: IBM 4341 and 3880 floppy disks Message-ID: <3CBF15A4-C4A2-4E36-8ABD-43B7892AF15A@nf6x.net> I recently acquired a small pile of 8" floppy disks which appear to be for IBM 4341 and 3880 hardware: https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/669240958492372992 They're on my "to be imaged" pile. I don't have any hardware to go with them, and would be happy to trade them away after imaging them. They apparently came from a military surplus commo shelter whose innards were being scrapped out. I don't think that the hardware is still in the shelter owner's hands, and I wouldn't have wanted to acquire it anyway, but I thought it would be fun to try to preserve the contents of the disks he had in there. Based on the label picture linked to above, do any of you IBM fans know whether the contents of these are likely to be interesting to anybody? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 24 09:35:16 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 07:35:16 -0800 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> On 11/23/15 11:46 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Your native interface have the additional problem that in addition to requiring people to write their own device driver for any OS usage, it will be rather difficult to get booting from it, since that > require special support. > There is no reason you can't have two simulated controllers, one small enough and early enough to boot a range of operating systems (RL02?), then another which exports a simple block-level interface which would be simple enough to easily write drivers against. RL02 is also interesting because there was a 22 bit version for qbus. I'm trying to remember if DSD had extended block length or partioning for their controllers. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 14:14:32 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:14:32 -0500 Subject: IBM 4341 and 3880 floppy disks In-Reply-To: <3CBF15A4-C4A2-4E36-8ABD-43B7892AF15A@nf6x.net> References: <3CBF15A4-C4A2-4E36-8ABD-43B7892AF15A@nf6x.net> Message-ID: They look like diagnostics (IPL disks are serialized). Anyway, definitely worth saving and imaging. Of course, I can only see the top two, but I bet there are other fun things in the stack. -- Will On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I recently acquired a small pile of 8" floppy disks which appear to be for IBM 4341 and 3880 hardware: > > https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/669240958492372992 > > They're on my "to be imaged" pile. I don't have any hardware to go with them, and would be happy to trade them away after imaging them. They apparently came from a military surplus commo shelter whose innards were being scrapped out. I don't think that the hardware is still in the shelter owner's hands, and I wouldn't have wanted to acquire it anyway, but I thought it would be fun to try to preserve the contents of the disks he had in there. > > Based on the label picture linked to above, do any of you IBM fans know whether the contents of these are likely to be interesting to anybody? > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 24 14:21:15 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:21:15 -0800 Subject: IBM 4341 and 3880 floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: <3CBF15A4-C4A2-4E36-8ABD-43B7892AF15A@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <84BE7403-91D1-4D86-900F-8F9F22233C93@nf6x.net> > On Nov 24, 2015, at 12:14, William Donzelli wrote: > > They look like diagnostics (IPL disks are serialized). Anyway, > definitely worth saving and imaging. > > Of course, I can only see the top two, but I bet there are other fun > things in the stack. Most of them are unlabeled Diskette 1 disks with who-knows-what on them. There's a 4-disk set of diagnostics, and a couple copies of something called "FUNC". I'm setting up my ImageDisk box now to see if it can read them. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 24 15:13:55 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:13:55 -0500 Subject: Open FPGAs? - was Re: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: References: <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <277667814.9717954.1448337042465.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5654D313.30309@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-11-24 2:37 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > Just in case anyone wonders, the Oberonstation uses a Xilinx XC3S700AN > aka Spartan-3 FPGA. > > So far, I haven't found anything that says that the code for the FPGA > is open source / documented. I think mouse was referring to the toolchain, structure of and interface to the FPGA itself, etc. I.e. an open FPGA product. --Toby > Ok, scratch that, I was looking at the http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ site. > Over at http://www.projectoberon.com/ there are a link to > "OberonStation Verilog Source" which is a zip file. > There is a readme file which describes how to build this with the > Xilinx tools too. > > Nice. > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 24 15:42:54 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:42:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Open FPGAs? - was Re: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: <5654D313.30309@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <277667814.9717954.1448337042465.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5654D313.30309@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201511242142.QAA07516@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> So far, I haven't found anything that says that the code for the >> FPGA is open source / documented. (I assume there's a "not" missing after the "is") > I think mouse was referring to the toolchain, structure of and > interface to the FPGA itself, etc. I.e. an open FPGA product. Yes. I consider it important for the custom CPU's definition to be open. But that's not what I was really interested in; I haven't used Oberon and don't really expect to start. What I was really interested in was whether the FPGA itself was open. If so, I definitely would have wanted to pick up the hardware, because I would love to experiment with an FPGA - but I am _not_ going to put up with running a vendor binary blob (which probably won't even run on my machines) to get an undocumented blob to throw at the hardware. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Nov 24 16:02:40 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:02:40 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-24 16:35, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/23/15 11:46 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Your native interface have the additional problem that in addition to >> requiring people to write their own device driver for any OS usage, it >> will be rather difficult to get booting from it, since that >> require special support. >> > > There is no reason you can't have two simulated controllers, one small > enough and early enough to boot a range of operating systems (RL02?), then > another which exports a simple block-level interface which would be > simple enough to easily write drivers against. True. But having your system on an RL02 is still no fun. It's a rather small disk, which cause some headache for larger systems. > RL02 is also interesting because there was a 22 bit version for qbus. That's one definition of "interesting". :-) > I'm trying to remember if DSD had extended block length or partioning > for their controllers. Not sure about it, but what I normally observed was that 3rd party controllers using large disks for some DEC disk usually put several logical disks on one physical disk. You could call that partitioning. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 16:04:12 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:04:12 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: Hello, I have some unibus machines that always need some way to interface to modern disks. I always dream to make an universal board that could act as disk and/or tape interface to a modern medium (scsi or cf/sd card), but also ram, network, I/O, whatever... It would be very nice to design a system based on fpga + cpu (arm), so you can load linux on it and avoid the hassle of handling file systems for the sd card, management and configuration, etc. The low level part, the access to the bus, address decoding, and all the parts that need real time reactions could be handled by the fpga. The good part is that I could really help to design a system like this. The bad is that it is expensive, specially because you have to use bga components that need to be mounted by smd assembling machines. But: there's always the possibility to choose a commercial development board, and mount it as SOM over a larger board that would include only psu and bus level translators. This way could be cheaper and can be mounted by skilled hands... If there's a number of people that would invest some money on it, to repay tooling and minimum lot costs for the pcb and components, we could definitely work together to make it. Anybody interested? Andrea From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 24 16:08:20 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:08:20 -0800 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 24, 2015, at 14:04, shadoooo wrote: > It would be very nice to design a system based on fpga + cpu (arm), so you > can load linux on it and avoid the hassle of handling file systems for the > sd card, management and configuration, etc. [...] > But: there's always the possibility to choose a commercial development > board, and mount it as SOM over a larger board that would include only psu > and bus level translators. A couple of approaches come to mind: 1) Use one of the lower-cost Xilinx Zynq development boards as its brain. 2) Use a Spartan 6 FPGA in a TQFP package, with a BeagleBone Black as its brain. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 24 16:34:24 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:34:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: <20151124223424.771B818C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Phil Budne > Any plans to allow USB "target" (as opposed to "host" -- I dunno if > those are the correct terms) 'host' and 'device' are the two modes for USB, IIRC. > to allow the board to be connected to a modern computer as a > peripheral? Not sure I see the purpose? Any of the storage devices (SD card, or thumb drive) can of course be pulled out and plugged into another machine. > From: Andrea > there's always the possibility to choose a commercial development > board, and mount it as SOM over a larger board that would include only > psu and bus level translators. This way could be cheaper That's basically what we're doing for the prototypes, except that our prototype motherboard is wire-wrapped. The mobo (currently) has only i) bus transceivers, ii) level converters from +5V logic to +3.3V (nobody supports +5V in any modern FPGA part, and QBUS transceivers are pretty much only available in +5V - although we'd be happy to be informed otherwise), and iii) a pair of 64-pin DuPont connectors to a FPGA/uC board from ZTEX. (We may add more, e.g. when we get to debugging the indicator panels, we'll probably put the drivers on the prototype motherboard. Etc, etc. That's part of the reason for going with wire-wrap, it's easy to add stuff like that.) It is, alas, not that cheap overall. We think the production models, with all the circuity on a single custom PCB, will be somewhat cheaper. In addition, you can't really stack the ZTEX boards on another board, and meet the QBUS inter-board spacing. Noel From phil at ultimate.com Tue Nov 24 17:21:33 2015 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:21:33 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <20151124223424.771B818C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151124223424.771B818C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201511242321.tAONLX1d091852@ultimate.com> Noel wrote: > I wrote: > > Any plans to allow USB "target" (as opposed to "host" -- I dunno if > > those are the correct terms) > > 'host' and 'device' are the two modes for USB, IIRC. > > > to allow the board to be connected to a modern computer as a > > peripheral? > > Not sure I see the purpose? Any of the storage devices (SD card, or thumb > drive) can of course be pulled out and plugged into another machine. Of the top of my head: Simulated serial port to MCU "console" and/or simulated q/unibus SLU(s) Simulated ethernet to MCU internal network and/or simulated q/unibus NIC Block device access to "unmounted" flash partitions I suppose "host" ports can used to support physical USB dongles of various sorts (serial, ethernet), but I guess my orientation is "why connect extra hardware that can be simulated?" Other wishy things: memory region visible to q/unibus as boot rom ability to halt/reset the q/unibus (PDP-11) processor (making the MCU into a "front end") If it's possible to make a board that's operable without an MCU, design the board so that it accepts a processor in "gumstix" or SODIMM form factor, and expose connections for USB/ethernet. Linux has "gadget" support for simulating various flavors of USB devices on a 'device' port. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Nov 24 17:48:20 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:48:20 +0000 Subject: Random question about a Byte Magazine Cover Message-ID: OK so this has been bugging me for a while. During a stint working at Morgan-Smith Electronics in Hatfield UK (they made diverse electronic systems including industrial PCs and radio alarms) I went through the boss's discarded vintage computer magazine collection and one particular issue I remember finding very interesting. IIRC it was a Byte Magazine (certainly the graphic was very in keeping with Byte cover artwork). I wonder if anyone recalls it - Google image searches have pulled a blank which means it either wasn't Byte (and just looked like it) or hasn't been scanned. The cover had a painted image of a white cliff face draped in vines with an 'Adventurer' in the foreground - you can imagine what the theme was. Anyone have any ideas? Maybe it wasn't Byte? Of course all this really quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but it would help me scratch an itch at the very least. Thanks! Mark. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Nov 24 17:52:04 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:52:04 +0000 Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU In-Reply-To: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> References: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I haven't looked into this at all and I suspect it's probably quite tricky indeed. I did look around a while back drew a blank. If you need another dead MV2 let me know, the one I collected is still sat in the garage. Regards, Mark. On 20 November 2015 at 00:00, Robert Jarratt wrote: > While I look into what is wrong with my H7864, I'd like to use a modern PSU > to power my machine (actually an rtVAX 1000). > > > > I think I would need to deal with the following problems: > > > > 1. Finding the right connectors (ideally, I am sure I could rig up > something more temporary). > > 2. A way to power the fans, which I believe are 15V, perhaps they > would run on 12V as I wouldn't run the machine for long periods anyway, or > I > could just use PC fans. > > 3. Emulate the DC OK and P OK signals, I suspect these would be > simple > +5V signals which could perhaps just come from the +5V of the PSU anyway > (unless there is a problem with that). > > 4. The most difficult bit, I suspect, would be the PSU LTC signal , > which I believe is some kind of clock. I don't know what the spec of the > signal is, but I will get a scope on a working one to see (NB don't want to > risk a working PSU on this machine in case it was a problem with the > machine > itself that caused the first PSU to fail, I don't mind sacrificing a modern > PSU if need be). > > > > Has anyone done this before? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 24 18:02:28 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:02:28 -0800 Subject: IBM 4341 and 3880 floppy disks In-Reply-To: <84BE7403-91D1-4D86-900F-8F9F22233C93@nf6x.net> References: <3CBF15A4-C4A2-4E36-8ABD-43B7892AF15A@nf6x.net> <84BE7403-91D1-4D86-900F-8F9F22233C93@nf6x.net> Message-ID: The images are now available here: https://github.com/NF6X/ibm4341disks The original disks are now available for trade if anybody is interested in them. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 24 18:21:23 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:21:23 -0000 Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU In-Reply-To: References: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <04ae01d12717$37196fc0$a54c4f40$@ntlworld.com> Thanks Mark, I probably don't have space for another one really, and yours is the one in the big enclosure anyway (like this: http://www.trailingedge.com/comphave.html?theKey=deccmicrovax2&byCompany=0), if I remember right, which has a different PSU. Mine is one of these: http://www.cosam.org/images/uvaxii/front.jpg We should try to get that one of yours working at the next Legacy. Have you thought about whether to go for April? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark > Wickens > Sent: 24 November 2015 23:52 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU > > I haven't looked into this at all and I suspect it's probably quite tricky indeed. I > did look around a while back drew a blank. > If you need another dead MV2 let me know, the one I collected is still sat in the > garage. > > Regards, > Mark. > > On 20 November 2015 at 00:00, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > While I look into what is wrong with my H7864, I'd like to use a > > modern PSU to power my machine (actually an rtVAX 1000). > > > > > > > > I think I would need to deal with the following problems: > > > > > > > > 1. Finding the right connectors (ideally, I am sure I could rig up > > something more temporary). > > > > 2. A way to power the fans, which I believe are 15V, perhaps they > > would run on 12V as I wouldn't run the machine for long periods > > anyway, or I could just use PC fans. > > > > 3. Emulate the DC OK and P OK signals, I suspect these would be > > simple > > +5V signals which could perhaps just come from the +5V of the PSU > > +anyway > > (unless there is a problem with that). > > > > 4. The most difficult bit, I suspect, would be the PSU LTC signal , > > which I believe is some kind of clock. I don't know what the spec of > > the signal is, but I will get a scope on a working one to see (NB > > don't want to risk a working PSU on this machine in case it was a > > problem with the machine itself that caused the first PSU to fail, I > > don't mind sacrificing a modern PSU if need be). > > > > > > > > Has anyone done this before? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Nov 24 18:30:03 2015 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:30:03 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5655010B.6010209@heeltoe.com> On 11/24/15 5:04 PM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > I have some unibus machines that always need some way to interface to > modern disks. > I always dream to make an universal board that could act as disk and/or > tape interface to a modern medium (scsi or cf/sd card), but also ram, > network, I/O, whatever... > I did this. It was a while back, and well, lots of things have happened since then (to me), but it can certainly be done. http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Retro.Udisk I made a unibus board with a smallish xilinx CPLD and an atmel SAM-7 arm cpu. It has a CF disk and IDE disk interface as well as USB. The CPLD does "just enough" to babysit the unibus and everything else is done with the ARM cpu in C code. It can emulate anything, ram, MSCP, RL02, what ever in theory. I only made software drivers for the RL02 and RK11. Both work and will boot RSTS, UNIX, RT-11... You can write boot loader code into ram and then run it. It has full unibus access as a master or slave. I included the extra two bits so it can work with a KS-10. (anyone want to loan me a KS-10 :-) I'll make it work!) My design is really simple but does require "proper" unibus driver chips. I'll skip over that argument since they can be found and do exist, just not in large qualities. Please - don't devolve into a unibus driver debate. Do that elsewhere or in private. It's been rehashed here way too many times. I made two boards and years went by. I did finally go back and get it all working. Turns out booting RSTS was the hardest thing. RT-11 was simple but RSTS does some really odd things with interrupts and code. Unix is also really easy as it's very tolerant. I should (and will) publish it all. Most of it's on the web but not all. I'll fix that. I've only tried it on a 11/34 and an 11/44, but it should work on any unibus machine. It's compliant with the protocol. If I had to do it again I'd use a real FPGA and run all the protocol (including DMA) in the FPGA. But I was in a minimalist mood when I did the first version. I don't think this requires anything as powerful as a beaglebone, but that could certainly work. Given how unibus works, I personally think a state machine in an FPGA is the best bet. The 11/44 is pretty strict about bus timeouts. The 11/34 is more gracious. I always liked that machine :-) What I have works and can be reproduced. I'm happy to any or all of it with anyone who asks. -brad From dab at froghouse.org Tue Nov 24 18:37:51 2015 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:37:51 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <201511242321.tAONLX1d091852@ultimate.com> References: <20151124223424.771B818C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201511242321.tAONLX1d091852@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <565502DF.5090607@froghouse.org> On 11/24/15 18:21, Phil Budne wrote: > I suppose "host" ports can used to support physical USB dongles of > various sorts (serial, ethernet), but I guess my orientation is "why > connect extra hardware that can be simulated?" We talked about this and put it in the category of "the hardware can do it so somebody probably will but we're not going to worry about it". > Other wishy things: > memory region visible to q/unibus as boot rom An earlier comment about how we wouldn't be able to boot off our native disk drives caused me to think along this direction too. This seems a nice feature and should be easy enough to implement. No hardware changes are needed. > ability to halt/reset the q/unibus (PDP-11) processor > (making the MCU into a "front end") Huh. Cute. We weren't planning to put in the ability to assert BHALT or BINIT. It could then halt the processor and examine memory but it couldn't see the processor registers or even set a start address. Or could it hack into the console terminal and send commands to ODT? Anyway, I'll leave that one to you. -Dave From jim at deitygraveyard.com Tue Nov 24 18:43:26 2015 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:43:26 -0500 Subject: Random question about a Byte Magazine Cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 6:48 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > The cover had a painted image of a white cliff face draped in vines with an > 'Adventurer' in the foreground - you can imagine what the theme was. Anyone > have any ideas? Maybe it wasn't Byte? "Adventurer" in the foreground.... Are you sure it wasn't Micro Adventurer magazine? https://archive.org/details/micro-adventurer Jim From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 24 18:46:49 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:46:49 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77BD7CCE-1F92-4E72-B3DC-D8B03BEBA5D8@comcast.net> > On Nov 24, 2015, at 5:08 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Nov 24, 2015, at 14:04, shadoooo wrote: >> It would be very nice to design a system based on fpga + cpu (arm), so you >> can load linux on it and avoid the hassle of handling file systems for the >> sd card, management and configuration, etc. > [...] >> But: there's always the possibility to choose a commercial development >> board, and mount it as SOM over a larger board that would include only psu >> and bus level translators. > > A couple of approaches come to mind: > > 1) Use one of the lower-cost Xilinx Zynq development boards as its brain. > > 2) Use a Spartan 6 FPGA in a TQFP package, with a BeagleBone Black as its brain. Nice. FWIW, there's a BBB daughercard ("cape") that's essentially an FPGA development board. Spartan 6, in fact. Info here: http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-69215 (I don't have one, but I've thought about it.) paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 24 19:20:28 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:20:28 -0700 Subject: Open FPGAs? - was Re: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: <201511242142.QAA07516@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <277667814.9717954.1448337042465.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5654D313.30309@telegraphics.com.au> <201511242142.QAA07516@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <56550CDC.2010804@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/24/2015 2:42 PM, Mouse wrote: > What I was really interested in was whether the FPGA itself was open. > If so, I definitely would have wanted to pick up the hardware, because > I would love to experiment with an FPGA - but I am _not_ going to put > up with running a vendor binary blob (which probably won't even run on > my machines) to get an undocumented blob to throw at the hardware. I don't see much of a problem, as long as source is portable. Sadly that is not true anymore as 99% of the designs use ROM/RAM or other features that of NOT portable. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 24 19:30:31 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:30:31 -0700 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/23/2015 7:28 PM, William Maddox wrote: > > The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy > to behold. If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a > minimalistic education-oriented language and operating system > designed after Wirth had taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the > 80's. I say WORTH LESS, with out even looking at it, as I am NOT a Pascal FAN From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 24 19:34:49 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:34:49 -0500 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Nov 24, 2015, at 8:30 PM, ben wrote: > > On 11/23/2015 7:28 PM, William Maddox wrote: >> >> The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy >> to behold. If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a >> minimalistic education-oriented language and operating system >> designed after Wirth had taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the >> 80's. > > I say WORTH LESS, with out even looking at it, as I am NOT a Pascal > FAN Judging a language without even looking at it seems rather odd. Pascal is largely obsolete now, but I still appreciate it -- of the 40 or so languages I know, there are only two where I could go from no knowledge at all to having a working program of significant size in one week: Pascal and Python. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 24 20:05:25 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:05:25 -0600 Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU In-Reply-To: References: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56551765.1050706@pico-systems.com> On 11/24/2015 05:52 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > I haven't looked into this at all and I suspect it's probably quite tricky > indeed. I did look around a while back drew a blank. > I built up a Micro-VAX II system out of boards, backplanes and assorted junk. I made my own power supply. The power supply is actually easy, just +5 and +12, with a touch of -12 for serial I/O. The only tricky thing is the power-OK and reset logic, which really wasn't all that tricky, either. I had a power and thermal safety control panel on it repurposed from the original 3rd party IBM mainframe memory box that would shut it down if there was an abnormal voltage or cooling failure. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 24 20:07:58 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:07:58 -0600 Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU In-Reply-To: References: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <565517FE.7010700@pico-systems.com> On 11/24/2015 05:52 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > 4. The most difficult bit, I suspect, would be the PSU LTC signal , > which I believe is some kind of clock. I don't know what the spec of the > signal is, but I will get a scope on a working one to see (NB don't want to > risk a working PSU on this machine in case it was a problem with the > machine > itself that caused the first PSU to fail, I don't mind sacrificing a modern > PSU if need be). > The line time clock is a vestige of the Q-bus LSI-11 heritage. As far as I know, there is a reserved bus signal, but it was NOT implemented on the UVAX-II system. (I don't have my print set anymore.) Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 24 20:16:33 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:16:33 -0600 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <56551A01.7090601@pico-systems.com> On 11/24/2015 07:34 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Judging a language without even looking at it seems rather odd. > > Pascal is largely obsolete now, but I still appreciate it -- of the 40 or so languages I know, there are only two where I could go from no knowledge at all to having a working program of significant size in one week: Pascal and Python. I mostly LOVED Pascal, and years ago it was my language of choice for most things. I wrote some significant programs in it, first Borland's Turbo Pascal, later DEC Pascal on the Vax. I recently revived my biggest Pascal program, which I had run in Windows 2K and XP, but had not maintained in over a decade. the Linux Free Pascal Compiler came out, which was aimed specifically at compiling Turbo and DEC pascal variants. This program converted Gerber photoplot files to a raster format for my laser photoplotter. I was able to get the original program working with minimal effort directly under Linux. It runs a lot faster, too. My only complaints with Pascal were the I/O was a bit clunky and slow, and the stupid / vs. div for real vs. integer divides. Otherwise, I really thought it was great. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 24 20:57:50 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:57:50 -0800 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <56551A01.7090601@pico-systems.com> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> <56551A01.7090601@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <565523AE.3050108@sydex.com> On 11/24/2015 06:16 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > My only complaints with Pascal were the I/O was a bit clunky and slow, > and the stupid / vs. div for real vs. integer divides. Otherwise, I > really thought it was great. IIRC, initially Pascal had no substantial I/O facilities--left as an exercise for the user. My CDC 6000 ETH version from 1976 shows the following, assuming that I'm reading the tables correctly: GET PUT RESET REWRITE GETSEG PUTSEG LINELIMIT READ READLN WRITE WRITELN MESSAGE PAGE DISPOSE RELEASE TIME DATE CLOCK And two predefined words: "INPUT" and "OUTPUT" I recall Pascal mostly for the general attitude of "Structured programming means no GOTO statements", which, of course, is silly. --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Nov 24 22:22:31 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:22:31 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] - Flash (or ide) storage for HP-2000? Message-ID: <200b86.3e77f7d7.43869187@aol.com> Jay an idea who's time has come? Has anyone looked into this~? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 24 22:45:45 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:45:45 -0800 Subject: WTB Miniscribe 3425 (working or parts donor) Message-ID: I have an aftermarket hard drive system for the TRS-80 Color Computer. It includes a Miniscribe 3425 5.25" hard drive and a Xebec S1410 SASI disk controller. This Miniscribe hard drive has a stepper motor positioner, and Miniscribe actually sprang for an optical track 0 sensor... unlike the 3.5" Miniscribe 20M drive in my first Amiga hard drive system, which simply slammed the stepper against a hard stop to find track 0. I'd like to image this drive with the MFM Reader/Emulator card if I can get it to work. Actually getting the whole system working with one of my CoCos would be even cooler, of course. I have no idea what might be on the hard drive; it was an eBay purchase, back when eBay and I were still on speaking terms. The hard drive is blinking an error code on its LED, reporting that it cannot cover the track 0 sensor. Measuring the sensor pins with a DMM while the drive is powered makes me believe that the optical sensor itself is working correctly. Its output disappears into a Miniscribe-marked, presumably custom IC, so I don't have high hopes of debugging this further within the bounds of my gumption. Interestingly, the interruptor on the external stepper shaft appears to cover the sensor on the final step against a hard stop, so it's not clear why this drive even needs the sensor. Does anybody have a donor Miniscribe 3425 available for sale or trade? The heads can be rattling around in drifts of aluminum filings for all I care, as long as the logic board is somewhat likely to be functioning. Or maybe has one sitting around that they might like to loan to me to image for them, and they don't mind if I risk board swaps after making a valiant effort to get the data off their drive for them first? So far, I've only used my new MFM Reader/Emulator to image and emulate a Tandon TM503 in a Tandy Fifteen Meg Disk System, and it worked wonderfully in that role. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 24 22:48:55 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:48:55 -0800 Subject: WTB Miniscribe 3425 (working or parts donor) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C044B1E-6B2E-46C7-AA29-4D0EAB9EE73F@nf6x.net> I forgot to mention that I got the LED error code table from a technical manual for later Miniscribe drives, so it's possible that the blink pattern means something different on the 3425. I think it's likely to be correct, though, given the way the stepper is behaving at power up. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 24 23:00:02 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 21:00:02 -0800 Subject: WTB Miniscribe 3425 (working or parts donor) In-Reply-To: <6C044B1E-6B2E-46C7-AA29-4D0EAB9EE73F@nf6x.net> References: <6C044B1E-6B2E-46C7-AA29-4D0EAB9EE73F@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <0FB1A99C-7DB2-4BBD-85CD-FFDBDEFE28B1@nf6x.net> Hmm, now this is interesting. It occurred to me to try tacking a bit of aluminum foil tape onto the interruptor blade to make it cover the optical sensor earlier before hitting the hard stop. That made the drive seek differently, and then report either "Track Zero sensor misadjusted" or "Seek error during burn-in or recal". Maybe the sensor is just knocked slightly out of adjustment? I'm hesitant to move it if there's any chance that it's in the correct location, but maybe this is worth experimenting with. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 24 23:37:44 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 21:37:44 -0800 Subject: WTB Miniscribe 3425 (working or parts donor) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56554928.10309@sydex.com> On 11/24/2015 08:45 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > The hard drive is blinking an error code on its LED, reporting that > it cannot cover the track 0 sensor. Measuring the sensor pins with a > DMM while the drive is powered makes me believe that the optical > sensor itself is working correctly. Its output disappears into a > Miniscribe-marked, presumably custom IC, so I don't have high hopes > of debugging this further within the bounds of my gumption. Maybe it's trying to tell you that it's really a brick? :) (For those who recall the Miniscribe debacle). --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Nov 24 23:45:28 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 21:45:28 -0800 Subject: WTB Miniscribe 3425 (working or parts donor) In-Reply-To: <56554928.10309@sydex.com> References: <56554928.10309@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0D1F3F5D-936E-41D1-B036-8CEF12B82844@nf6x.net> > On Nov 24, 2015, at 21:37, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Maybe it's trying to tell you that it's really a brick? :) > > (For those who recall the Miniscribe debacle). LOL! After my experience with that 20M SCSI drive on my Amiga, I'm tempted to say that they're all bricks. Some of them just pretend to be hard drives for a while first. ;) Anyway, I have it happily spinning up now after moving the interruptor vane on the outer stepper motor shaft a bit. It seems that the drive expects to see the track zero sensor trip some distance before the hard stop, but not too far before. Whether the drive's idea of where track zero is vs. where it actually is on the media remains to be seen, but I'll be setting up the reader shortly. I think there may be a chance of success since, if I'm guessing correctly, track location and spacing on these drives is determined by the stepper motor, and the track zero sensor should just need to be within a half track or so of actual track zero position. Of course, all bets are off if the internal positioner roller shifted on the stepper's internal shaft, rather than just the interruptor shifting on the external shaft. Crossing my fingers... -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 00:11:50 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:11:50 -0800 Subject: WTB Miniscribe 3425 (working or parts donor) In-Reply-To: <0D1F3F5D-936E-41D1-B036-8CEF12B82844@nf6x.net> References: <56554928.10309@sydex.com> <0D1F3F5D-936E-41D1-B036-8CEF12B82844@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > Anyway, I have it happily spinning up now after moving the interruptor vane on the outer stepper motor shaft a bit. It seems that the drive expects to see the track zero sensor trip some distance before the hard stop, but not too far before. Whether the drive's idea of where track zero is vs. where it actually is on the media remains to be seen, but I'll be setting up the reader shortly. I think there may be a chance of success since, if I'm guessing correctly, track location and spacing on these drives is determined by the stepper motor, and the track zero sensor should just need to be within a half track or so of actual track zero position. Of course, all bets are off if the internal positioner roller shifted on the stepper's internal shaft, rather than just the interruptor shifting on the external shaft. Crossing my fingers... > I did some support work for a product that used a 3.5-inch 20MB Miniscribe drive back in the mid-80's which had a failure mode where the track zero flag would rotate slightly out of position on the shaft. When that happened the drive would flash a specific error code pattern on the diagnostic LED. You could recover from that specific failure by loosening the set screw on the flag just enough that it could be rotated without rotating the shaft, then powering up the drive with an otherwise unused manufacturing / test jumper pair shorted. When powered up in that mode the LED would turn on / off just as you rotated the flag back into the correct position in the opto sensor. When you got it into the position where it was just at the on / off threshold you would then carefully tighten down the set screw on the flag without rotating the shaft. Then power cycle the drive without the test jumper in place and hopefully all would be well. There were specific torque limit screw drivers and a Loctite product for the screw that were supposed to be used by the service people when they were doing this, but that was to return the drive to service, not just a one time data recovery. That was almost 30 years ago and I don't remember all of the details now. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 25 00:19:27 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:19:27 -0800 Subject: WTB Miniscribe 3425 (working or parts donor) In-Reply-To: References: <56554928.10309@sydex.com> <0D1F3F5D-936E-41D1-B036-8CEF12B82844@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 24, 2015, at 22:11, Glen Slick wrote: > > I did some support work for a product that used a 3.5-inch 20MB > Miniscribe drive back in the mid-80's which had a failure mode where > the track zero flag would rotate slightly out of position on the > shaft. [...] Very interesting! I have the drive spinning up happily, though track alignment is still a crap shoot. I've tried dumping it with the MFM Reader/Emulator, and its software could not make sense of the track format or CRC. I dumped a raw MFM transitions file for more analysis, since the Xebec controller might just use a track format that the emulator software doesn't currently support. I tried analyzing the disk on several cylinders, in case the tracks line up with steps but the track zero sensing is offset by some number of tracks. I think I'll try reading the drive with its original controller next, but first I need to do some work on the chassis. There's lots of electrical tape falling off of sloppy wire splices in there, as well as signs of rodent nibbling on some wires. I don't know if its power supply works yet, and I'll do some repair work on the chassis wiring before I try smoke testing it. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 25 00:22:53 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:22:53 -0800 Subject: WTB Miniscribe 3425 (working or parts donor) In-Reply-To: References: <56554928.10309@sydex.com> <0D1F3F5D-936E-41D1-B036-8CEF12B82844@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <4DED0A04-9A18-4EDE-A488-F5EF73E714E2@nf6x.net> By the way, I found a stamp marking on the inside of the drive's front bezel which I think represents the expected attitude of a Miniscribe drive. :-p https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/669368721094238211 -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From earl at retrobits.com Tue Nov 24 19:58:28 2015 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:58:28 -0800 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:30 PM, ben wrote: > > I say WORTH LESS, with out even looking at it, as I am NOT a Pascal > FAN > > ?I'm guessing you're more of a FORTRAN devotee, based on the ALL CAPS? ? From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 25 00:36:59 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:36:59 -0800 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <347371B4-CF64-41DE-A003-57C0DE8CD620@nf6x.net> > On Nov 24, 2015, at 17:58, Earl Evans wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:30 PM, ben wrote: > >> >> I say WORTH LESS, with out even looking at it, as I am NOT a Pascal >> FAN >> >> > ?I'm guessing you're more of a FORTRAN devotee, based on the ALL CAPS? OH, SNAP! :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 25 01:34:21 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:34:21 -0000 Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU In-Reply-To: <56551765.1050706@pico-systems.com> References: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> <56551765.1050706@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <04ce01d12753$b33a5b50$19af11f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 25 November 2015 02:05 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU > > On 11/24/2015 05:52 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > > I haven't looked into this at all and I suspect it's probably quite > > tricky indeed. I did look around a while back drew a blank. > > > I built up a Micro-VAX II system out of boards, backplanes and assorted junk. I > made my own power supply. The power supply is actually easy, just +5 and > +12, with a touch of > -12 for serial I/O. > > The only tricky thing is the power-OK and reset logic, which really wasn't all > that tricky, either. > > I had a power and thermal safety control panel on it repurposed from the > original 3rd party IBM mainframe memory box that would shut it down if there > was an abnormal voltage or cooling failure. > > Jon Thanks Jon. I think standard PC PSUs only do +5 and +12, so how did you do -12? For P OK and DC OK I found this: http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/powerup_reset_circuit.htm, but just for test purposes I assume I could connect the +5 direct to P OK and DC OK. Thanks for the other email, sounds like I wouldn't need to do anything with LTC. Regards Rob From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 25 01:43:02 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:43:02 -0800 Subject: WTB Miniscribe 3425 (working or parts donor) In-Reply-To: <4DED0A04-9A18-4EDE-A488-F5EF73E714E2@nf6x.net> References: <56554928.10309@sydex.com> <0D1F3F5D-936E-41D1-B036-8CEF12B82844@nf6x.net> <4DED0A04-9A18-4EDE-A488-F5EF73E714E2@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <845181F3-191C-4EA2-8282-F9D242D9572F@nf6x.net> No luck with the hard drive system on my CoCo 2 or 3, but I don't know if I have it set up right. There's one cartridge with the SASI interface (presumably...), and another with an Owl Ware Hard Disk BASIC 3 ROM and floppy controller. I can make the hard disk LED blink with commands like DRIVE P (park hard drive), but the BASIC just returns I/O errors. Might be hardware, might be PEBCAK. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From j_hoppe at t-online.de Wed Nov 25 04:52:17 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:52:17 +0100 Subject: PDP11GUI 1.47 Message-ID: <565592E1.1030009@t-online.de> Folks, a new version of PDP11GUI is online. It fixes some errors, including "Error 103", which occured when running MACRO11 without administrator privileges. There were also problems under Win10. Download from http://retrocmp.com/pdp-11/pdp11gui Bug feedback is necessary! Enjoy, Joerg From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 06:17:42 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 06:17:42 -0600 Subject: WTB Miniscribe 3425 (working or parts donor) In-Reply-To: References: <56554928.10309@sydex.com> <0D1F3F5D-936E-41D1-B036-8CEF12B82844@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5655A6E6.7070804@gmail.com> On 11/25/2015 12:19 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I have the drive spinning up happily, though track alignment is still a > crap shoot. I've tried dumping it with the MFM Reader/Emulator, and its > software could not make sense of the track format or CRC. I dumped a raw > MFM transitions file for more analysis, since the Xebec controller might > just use a track format that the emulator software doesn't currently > support. I *think* the track format for the S1410 is documented in the board manual, so if you can get raw track data then there's a chance that you might be able to make sense of it. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 25 09:00:07 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:00:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Nov 2015, ben wrote: > On 11/23/2015 7:28 PM, William Maddox wrote: >> >> The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy >> to behold. If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a >> minimalistic education-oriented language and operating system >> designed after Wirth had taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the >> 80's. > > I say WORTH LESS, with out even looking at it, as I am NOT a Pascal > FAN It's ok Ben, nobody's perfect. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 25 09:01:36 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:01:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Nov 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > Pascal is largely obsolete now, but I still appreciate it -- of the 40 > or so languages I know, there are only two where I could go from no > knowledge at all to having a working program of significant size in one > week: Pascal and Python. Um, no. Check out Delphi, Lazarus and FPC. No where near "obsolete". g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 25 09:38:42 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:38:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: <20151125153842.5212018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Phil Budne >>> allow the board to be connected to a modern computer as a peripheral? >> Not sure I see the purpose? > Simulated serial port to MCU "console" and/or simulated q/unibus SLU(s) Yes, but... what's the point of being able to gain access to SLU's on the QBUS from a modern machine? Just plug serial ports into the modern machine. Etc, etc. If you meant 'a simulated console for the -11 that some other machine can get to', just run a serial cable from that machine to the real -11 console line. (BTW, which expansion of the "MCU" acronym did you have in mind?) > Simulated ethernet to MCU internal network and/or simulated > q/unibus NIC Not sure I entirely follow this? We had talked about eventually writing code to support a common USB Ethernet interface, and have the QSIC emulate the Interlan NI2010 etc cards, which were very nice to program (unlike all the DEC native Ethernet interfaces). > Block device access to "unmounted" flash partitions Like I said, plug the storage unit (we don't have any that are physically built into the QSIC) directly into the other machine. The QSIC is not intended to provide an SD port for some other kind of machine that doesn't have a native SD port; you can justq buy an SD carrier that is a USB device. Sorry, I'm just not into the whole 'desert topping / floor wax' concept (and a tip of the hatly hat to Marshall Rose for the phrase). 'Can do something' != 'good idea to do something'!! > I suppose "host" ports can used to support physical USB dongles of > various sorts (serial, ethernet), but I guess my orientation is "why > connect extra hardware that can be simulated?" Simulated, how? It's not clear that it's easier to do the simulation (via some complex lash-up) than have the QSIC provide something that looks, programming-wise, just like the DEC originals. Although there are no plans to to serial lines. In general, my philosophy is not to provide things which are still _readily_ available for real - and serial lines fall into that cateory. > ability to halt/reset the q/unibus (PDP-11) processor > (making the MCU into a "front end") If the LSI-11 console is i) plugged into something else, and has 'halt on break' enabled, you pretty much already have that. > If it's possible to make a board that's operable without an MCU Huh? The QSIC is planned to be a standalone QBUS card - i.e. take a running QBUS system with CPU, memory, etc, and plug in a QSIC for 'disk' storage. Or by 'MCU' were you referring to the -11 CPU? Bridgham has at times wanted to do that, but I'm not enthusiastic - see desert-topping/floor-wax point, plus my point about 'only doing things that aren't easily available' - and QBUS PDP-11 CPUs are readily available. > design the board so that it accepts a processor in "gumstix" or SODIMM > form factor, and expose connections for USB/ethernet. More desert-topping/floor-wax. > Linux has "gadget" support for simulating various flavors of USB > devices on a 'device' port. I have zero, none, nada interest in doing a board that can run Linux. > From: David Bridgham > It could then halt the processor and examine memory Not sure about that. I don't know if the CPU processes DMA requests when it's stopped. You can't use go ahead and use the bus without asking because the processor is in tight loop issuing DATI's to the console CSR. Noel From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 09:40:14 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:40:14 -0600 Subject: Random question about a Byte Magazine Cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:48 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > OK so this has been bugging me for a while. During a stint working at > Morgan-Smith Electronics in Hatfield UK (they made diverse electronic > systems including industrial PCs and radio alarms) I went through the > boss's discarded vintage computer magazine collection and one particular > issue I remember finding very interesting. > > IIRC it was a Byte Magazine (certainly the graphic was very in keeping with > Byte cover artwork). I wonder if anyone recalls it - Google image searches > have pulled a blank which means it either wasn't Byte (and just looked like > it) or hasn't been scanned. > > The cover had a painted image of a white cliff face draped in vines with an > 'Adventurer' in the foreground - you can imagine what the theme was. Anyone > have any ideas? Maybe it wasn't Byte? > > Of course all this really quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, > but it would help me scratch an itch at the very least. > > Thanks! Mark. > I'm all too familiar with that kind of itch. I'm glad we have this forum to at least attempt to find answers; hope you find yours. -- Eric Christopherson From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Nov 25 10:01:14 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:01:14 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <20151125153842.5212018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151125153842.5212018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5655DB4A.3070301@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-11-25 10:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Phil Budne > ... > > Linux has "gadget" support for simulating various flavors of USB > > devices on a 'device' port. > > I have zero, none, nada interest in doing a board that can run Linux. > I am sure Phil only meant that it would be easy to interface to a board exposing such USB features *from a separate Linux system* - because of that driver. Watching your project with great interest, Noel. I've been contemplating such a thing myself for more than 10 years but I haven't got the electronics experience myself, so I needed a collaborator. Then of course conditions in life never cleared the space to make it happen, or I just had other priorities. :( I did end up studying MSCP and buses in some detail though. --Toby From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Nov 25 10:02:20 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:02:20 +0000 Subject: Front panels Message-ID: <5655DB8C.2050505@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Ok our front panels are going into production. Meeting went well. We finally worked out how they did the matte layer on the front It appears to be a transparent or translucent white. Its ink base with no colour The effect is like a steamed up window or shower glass panel. It looks a matt grey colour that transmits light but obscures objects behind it. as the panel behind it is black except where the holes are you see a matt black and diffused white light from the lamps are. Neat trick! Rod(Panelman)Smallwood From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Nov 25 10:09:56 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 08:09:56 -0800 Subject: WTB Miniscribe 3425 (working or parts donor) In-Reply-To: <5655A6E6.7070804@gmail.com> References: <56554928.10309@sydex.com> <0D1F3F5D-936E-41D1-B036-8CEF12B82844@nf6x.net> <5655A6E6.7070804@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 25, 2015, at 04:17, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I *think* the track format for the S1410 is documented in the board manual, so if you can get raw track data then there's a chance that you might be able to make sense of it. > The sector format is described. but not in a great deal of detail. David Gesswein has provided some hints to help me begin the challenge of decoding things. It appears that the drive is now seeking off by about 4 tracks, and I think I should be able to use diagnostic output from the MFM Reader/Emulator to get the track 0 sensor readjusted by trial and error. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 25 10:36:53 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:36:53 -0600 Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU In-Reply-To: <04ce01d12753$b33a5b50$19af11f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> <56551765.1050706@pico-systems.com> <04ce01d12753$b33a5b50$19af11f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5655E3A5.5000905@pico-systems.com> On 11/25/2015 01:34 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson >> Sent: 25 November 2015 02:05 >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- >> Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU >> >> On 11/24/2015 05:52 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: >>> I haven't looked into this at all and I suspect it's probably quite >>> tricky indeed. I did look around a while back drew a blank. >>> >> I built up a Micro-VAX II system out of boards, backplanes and assorted junk. I >> made my own power supply. The power supply is actually easy, just +5 and >> +12, with a touch of >> -12 for serial I/O. >> >> The only tricky thing is the power-OK and reset logic, which really wasn't all >> that tricky, either. >> >> I had a power and thermal safety control panel on it repurposed from the >> original 3rd party IBM mainframe memory box that would shut it down if there >> was an abnormal voltage or cooling failure. >> >> Jon > Thanks Jon. I think standard PC PSUs only do +5 and +12, so how did you do -12? I did not use PC power supplies, I used a couple industrial power supplies. I built this system in 1986. But, generic PC power supplies DO have a little bit of -12 V for serial cards. The standard PCI connector has a -12 V pin. PCIe seems to have dropped the -12V supply. > For P OK and DC OK I found this: http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/powerup_reset_circuit.htm, but just for test purposes I assume I could connect the +5 direct to P OK and DC OK. BPOK needs to pulse low after power is stable, BDCOK should be high when power is OK. Or, at least, that's what I got from the drawing you linked to. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 25 10:40:20 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:40:20 -0600 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5655E474.7050306@pico-systems.com> On 11/25/2015 09:01 AM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 24 Nov 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Pascal is largely obsolete now, but I still appreciate it >> -- of the 40 or so languages I know, there are only two >> where I could go from no knowledge at all to having a >> working program of significant size in one week: Pascal >> and Python. > > Um, no. Check out Delphi, Lazarus and FPC. No where near > "obsolete". > I was really pleased with FPC! Are people actually creating new projects with it? I was grateful to discover FPC so I could update my photoplotter program and move away from the Turbo Pascal / Windows XP executable I have been using. But, I haven't used it for any new projects. (Yet.) Jon From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Nov 25 10:46:16 2015 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:46:16 -0500 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <5650C830.7050302@bitsavers.org> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> <5650AC9A.6030409@bitsavers.org> <17D3A337-7C47-4858-A1AD-6831D24D25FC@comcast.net> <5650C830.7050302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5655E5D8.9090104@heeltoe.com> On 11/21/15 2:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 11/21/15 10:44 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >>> Arg, totally forgot to include the HP 64000 and Tek 8560 development >>> systems though I'm >>> blanking right now on if they did their own or sold third-party C >>> compilers. >> >> Third party, I believe. I used one of those for a 68040 (developing >> the DECbridge 900). I think the compiler was Green Hills. GCC was >> around, I think, but that isn't the one we used as far as I remember. >> >> paul >> > > It would have been impossible to use GCC on the 8560, it was a V7 > PDP-11 Unix. The 64000 processor is pretty much the same as the HP 9845. > In 1983 there was Alcyon on the 8560 :-) (woa. that was a long time ago) It only worked because they #ifdef'd out the floating point support. Split I&D on a pdp-11. Not much space. I'm not aware of any native TEK C compiler for 68k on the 8560. In 1987 gcc would compile to 68k quite well. Before that I seem to recall that there was also a C compiler from Standford, from sumex (wow - do I still have those brain cells?). Remember sumex-aim ? SumMacC. Anyway, I think the Kinetics fastpath was compiled with that and I could swear I was using it as a C compiler on a vax-11/750 running mt. xinu in mid 80's. Find someone from pixar - they were using it to compile Macintosh code. I don't know the lineage of that compiler, but I think it was a port of something older. There was also another C compiler we ran on the vax but I doubt I can remember who wrote it (was it Megamax C?). It was a top down recursive decent compiler with only a peephole optimizer, but it was "good enough". I think I shipped a product or two with its output. It had a native mac version but somehow we got them to port it to the vax since it was written in C (and OMG, all of the token values were hex values in the code - like 0x45 - no use of the preprocessor at all. made my hair catch fire. still, it worked. just don't try and edit it.) Oh, and the sun-2 showed up around 1984. That had it's own C compiler, naturally, but (oddly), I never used it as a cross compiler. I was too busy trying to keep the lisa profile disk going :-) Around that time the lisa was macintosh development environment. But the pain keeps me from remembering it well. The text editor was pretty. That's about all I can say. slow as molasses. No one mentioned Apollo. Ok, their pascal compiler probably had more strength but I know there was a C compiler in there as well, certainly in the 1983-1985 time frame. and who could forget Bill Poduska? There was also that wacky company in cambridge which made a hybrid c-compiler/c-interpreter. It worked really well but it wasn't quite right. I loved the idea but never bought one. That was around 1988, 1989? I always hoped to find the source code for that. I think gcc was the standard for 68k from 1987 on. Yes, greenhills, but it's not clear it produced better code and it was really expensive. Ask anyone at cisco or wellfleet what they used. And trust me, they were worried about code size and code speed. lol. I remember trying to route at "wirespeed" using 10baseT. Makes me laugh now. -brad From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 25 11:01:32 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:01:32 -0000 Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU In-Reply-To: <5655E3A5.5000905@pico-systems.com> References: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> <56551765.1050706@pico-systems.com> <04ce01d12753$b33a5b50$19af11f0$@ntlworld.com> <5655E3A5.5000905@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <053401d127a2$efa79ea0$cef6dbe0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 25 November 2015 16:37 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU > > On 11/25/2015 01:34 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon > >> Elson > >> Sent: 25 November 2015 02:05 > >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > >> Off- Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU > >> > >> On 11/24/2015 05:52 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > >>> I haven't looked into this at all and I suspect it's probably quite > >>> tricky indeed. I did look around a while back drew a blank. > >>> > >> I built up a Micro-VAX II system out of boards, backplanes and > >> assorted junk. I made my own power supply. The power supply is > >> actually easy, just +5 and > >> +12, with a touch of > >> -12 for serial I/O. > >> > >> The only tricky thing is the power-OK and reset logic, which really > >> wasn't all that tricky, either. > >> > >> I had a power and thermal safety control panel on it repurposed from > >> the original 3rd party IBM mainframe memory box that would shut it > >> down if there was an abnormal voltage or cooling failure. > >> > >> Jon > > Thanks Jon. I think standard PC PSUs only do +5 and +12, so how did you do - > 12? > I did not use PC power supplies, I used a couple industrial power supplies. I > built this system in 1986. > But, generic PC power supplies DO have a little bit of -12 V for serial cards. > The standard PCI connector has a -12 V pin. PCIe seems to have dropped the - > 12V supply. Thanks, that should do the job then. > > For P OK and DC OK I found this: > http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/powerup_reset_circuit.htm, but just for > test purposes I assume I could connect the +5 direct to P OK and DC OK. > BPOK needs to pulse low after power is stable, BDCOK should be high when > power is OK. Or, at least, that's what I got from the drawing you linked to. > > Jon My reading of the Qbus spec is that P OK and DC OK are active high. That diagram tells me that both control signals are driven the same way because the two circuits are identical except for the timing caps. When the power is OK the output of the inverters is low, so the transistors are off, presumably allowing the signals to float high. When the power is not OK, the inverters are high, turning on the transistors and shorting the signal to ground. But, I am no expert, and could have interpreted those circuits all wrong. Regards Rob From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Nov 25 11:09:15 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:09:15 -0500 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <5655E5D8.9090104@heeltoe.com> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> <5650AC9A.6030409@bitsavers.org> <17D3A337-7C47-4858-A1AD-6831D24D25FC@comcast.net> <5650C830.7050302@bitsavers.org> <5655E5D8.9090104@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <5655EB3B.70301@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-11-25 11:46 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > On 11/21/15 2:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >> On 11/21/15 10:44 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>> Arg, totally forgot to include the HP 64000 and Tek 8560 development >>>> systems though I'm >>>> blanking right now on if they did their own or sold third-party C >>>> compilers. >>> >>> Third party, I believe. I used one of those for a 68040 (developing >>> the DECbridge 900). I think the compiler was Green Hills. GCC was >>> around, I think, but that isn't the one we used as far as I remember. >>> >>> paul >>> >> >> It would have been impossible to use GCC on the 8560, it was a V7 >> PDP-11 Unix. The 64000 processor is pretty much the same as the HP 9845. >> > In 1983 there was Alcyon on the 8560 :-) (woa. that was a long time ago) > It only worked because they #ifdef'd out the floating point support. > Split I&D on a pdp-11. Not much space. > > I'm not aware of any native TEK C compiler for 68k on the 8560. > > In 1987 gcc would compile to 68k quite well. Before that I seem to > recall that there was also a C compiler from Standford, from sumex (wow > - do I still have those brain cells?). Remember sumex-aim ? SumMacC. > Anyway, I think the Kinetics fastpath was compiled with that and I could > swear I was using it as a C compiler on a vax-11/750 running mt. xinu in > mid 80's. Find someone from pixar - they were using it to compile > Macintosh code. I don't know the lineage of that compiler, but I think > it was a port of something older. You are right about gcc; version 1.37 (and I think a later version too) was ported to MPW, where it performed better than, and was more or less a drop in replacement for, Apple's compiler. In fact, when I was porting TeX -- at the time, considered a large program -- only gcc would compile it successfully. Long before that, I used Whitesmiths C, Aztec C, and of course Lightspeed/THINK C on Mac for 68K. --Toby > > There was also another C compiler we ran on the vax ... > > I think gcc was the standard for 68k from 1987 on. Yes, greenhills, but > it's not clear it produced better code and it was really expensive. Ask > anyone at cisco or wellfleet what they used. And trust me, they were > worried about code size and code speed. lol. I remember trying to > route at "wirespeed" using 10baseT. Makes me laugh now. > > -brad > > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 25 11:09:57 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:09:57 -0600 Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU In-Reply-To: <053401d127a2$efa79ea0$cef6dbe0$@ntlworld.com> References: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> <56551765.1050706@pico-systems.com> <04ce01d12753$b33a5b50$19af11f0$@ntlworld.com> <5655E3A5.5000905@pico-systems.com> <053401d127a2$efa79ea0$cef6dbe0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5655EB65.9040803@pico-systems.com> On 11/25/2015 11:01 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > My reading of the Qbus spec is that P OK and DC OK are > active high. That diagram tells me that both control > signals are driven the same way because the two circuits > are identical except for the timing caps. When the power > is OK the output of the inverters is low, so the > transistors are off, presumably allowing the signals to > float high. When the power is not OK, the inverters are > high, turning on the transistors and shorting the signal > to ground. But, I am no expert, and could have interpreted > those circuits all wrong. Regards Rob Yup, I read the circuit the same way. Jon From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 25 11:33:18 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:33:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <5655E474.7050306@pico-systems.com> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <56550F37.9060809@jetnet.ab.ca> <5655E474.7050306@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Nov 2015, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/25/2015 09:01 AM, geneb wrote: >> On Tue, 24 Nov 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> Pascal is largely obsolete now, but I still appreciate it -- of the 40 or >>> so languages I know, there are only two where I could go from no knowledge >>> at all to having a working program of significant size in one week: Pascal >>> and Python. >> >> Um, no. Check out Delphi, Lazarus and FPC. No where near "obsolete". >> > I was really pleased with FPC! Are people actually creating new projects > with it? I was grateful to discover FPC so I could update my photoplotter > program and move away from the Turbo Pascal / Windows XP executable I have > been using. But, I haven't used it for any new projects. (Yet.) > You might want to join the fpc users mailing list. It's got decent traffic on it. The range of cpu targets you can compile to is pretty good. You can even compile for Android. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From phil at ultimate.com Wed Nov 25 12:41:59 2015 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:41:59 -0500 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <5655E5D8.9090104@heeltoe.com> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> <5650AC9A.6030409@bitsavers.org> <17D3A337-7C47-4858-A1AD-6831D24D25FC@comcast.net> <5650C830.7050302@bitsavers.org> <5655E5D8.9090104@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <201511251841.tAPIfxE2024830@ultimate.com> Brad Parker wrote: > .... Remember sumex-aim ? SumMacC. > Anyway, I think the Kinetics fastpath was compiled with that.... Perhaps originally.... But when the FastPath code arrived at Shiva it was using the SunOS 4 native compiler on Sun3. I moved it to gcc on Sun4. The 6/88 KIP release has CC=/usr/stanford/bin/cc68 Rutgers KIP c. 1989 used gcc > There was also that wacky company in cambridge which made a hybrid > c-compiler/c-interpreter. It worked really well but it wasn't quite > right. I loved the idea but never bought one. That was around 1988, > 1989? I always hoped to find the source code for that. Saber-C? It became "Code Center" by Centerline. Steve Kauffer kept it going while working on startups (TripAdvisor being the successful one). It ended up at ICS.COM: https://motif.ics.com/products/codecenter ISTR some product of that ilk that read and patched object code and only worked on RISC platforms... > I think gcc was the standard for 68k from 1987 on. Yes, greenhills, but > it's not clear it produced better code and it was really expensive. I never dealt with that many 68K compilers. I remember a whole slew of problematic compilers and debuggers on 32x32 (Encore) and ROMP (IBM PC/RT). At least of them couldn't handle cfront output and/or "Duff's Device" phil From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 25 12:46:06 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 18:46:06 -0000 Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU In-Reply-To: <5655EB65.9040803@pico-systems.com> References: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> <56551765.1050706@pico-systems.com> <04ce01d12753$b33a5b50$19af11f0$@ntlworld.com> <5655E3A5.5000905@pico-systems.com> <053401d127a2$efa79ea0$cef6dbe0$@ntlworld.com> <5655EB65.9040803@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <055001d127b1$8b27efc0$a177cf40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 25 November 2015 17:10 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU > > On 11/25/2015 11:01 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > My reading of the Qbus spec is that P OK and DC OK are active high. > > That diagram tells me that both control signals are driven the same > > way because the two circuits are identical except for the timing caps. > > When the power is OK the output of the inverters is low, so the > > transistors are off, presumably allowing the signals to float high. > > When the power is not OK, the inverters are high, turning on the > > transistors and shorting the signal to ground. But, I am no expert, > > and could have interpreted those circuits all wrong. Regards Rob > Yup, I read the circuit the same way. > Ah, I misread your earlier response, I thought you were saying something different. Regards Rob From j_hoppe at t-online.de Wed Nov 25 07:34:55 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:34:55 +0100 Subject: Big heap of DEC Flip-Chips modules Message-ID: <5655B8FF.1060903@t-online.de> Hi, a year ago or so an inventory of several thousand DEC flip-chip modules appeared in the neighbourhood. "Yesss, my precioussss, it came too me !!!" But I couldn't acquire them. At least I help selling them now. The inventory is here: retrocmp.com/flipshipshop It was a 2-months-project: most fun was sorting and counting the modules, then taking the pictures. A webshop solution seemed the best for online presentation. (Very interesting, I never did that before) Functionality of the shop software is good. On the other hand this project appears a bit too commercial now. You even should be able to buy online over Paypal, but I'd prefer personal contact. Joerg From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 25 07:42:44 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:42:44 +0100 Subject: Big heap of DEC Flip-Chips modules In-Reply-To: <5655B8FF.1060903@t-online.de> References: <5655B8FF.1060903@t-online.de> Message-ID: <20151125134244.GF10084@Update.UU.SE> Hi J?rg Very enticing. But the link gives me a 404. I think it should be: http://retrocmp.com/flipchipshop /P On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 02:34:55PM +0100, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > Hi, > > a year ago or so an inventory of several thousand DEC flip-chip modules > appeared in the neighbourhood. > "Yesss, my precioussss, it came too me !!!" > But I couldn't acquire them. At least I help selling them now. > > The inventory is here: > retrocmp.com/flipshipshop > > It was a 2-months-project: most fun was sorting and counting the modules, > then taking the pictures. > A webshop solution seemed the best for online presentation. (Very > interesting, I never did that before) > > Functionality of the shop software is good. On the other hand this project > appears a bit too commercial now. > You even should be able to buy online over Paypal, but I'd prefer personal > contact. > > Joerg From j_hoppe at t-online.de Wed Nov 25 07:43:05 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:43:05 +0100 Subject: Big heap of DEC Flip-Chips modules: URL update In-Reply-To: <5655B8FF.1060903@t-online.de> References: <5655B8FF.1060903@t-online.de> Message-ID: <5655BAE9.8010607@t-online.de> Correction: typo in the URL, it is retrocmp.com/flipchipshop of course !! Am 25.11.2015 um 14:34 schrieb J?rg Hoppe: > Hi, > > a year ago or so an inventory of several thousand DEC flip-chip modules > appeared in the neighbourhood. > "Yesss, my precioussss, it came too me !!!" > But I couldn't acquire them. At least I help selling them now. > > The inventory is here: > retrocmp.com/flipshipshop > > It was a 2-months-project: most fun was sorting and counting the > modules, then taking the pictures. > A webshop solution seemed the best for online presentation. (Very > interesting, I never did that before) > > Functionality of the shop software is good. On the other hand this > project appears a bit too commercial now. > You even should be able to buy online over Paypal, but I'd prefer > personal contact. > > Joerg > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 25 08:08:39 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:08:39 -0000 Subject: Big heap of DEC Flip-Chips modules In-Reply-To: <5655B8FF.1060903@t-online.de> References: <5655B8FF.1060903@t-online.de> Message-ID: <051e01d1278a$c8b9e090$5a2da1b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of J?rg > Hoppe > Sent: 25 November 2015 13:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Big heap of DEC Flip-Chips modules > > Hi, > > a year ago or so an inventory of several thousand DEC flip-chip modules > appeared in the neighbourhood. > "Yesss, my precioussss, it came too me !!!" > But I couldn't acquire them. At least I help selling them now. > > The inventory is here: > retrocmp.com/flipshipshop > > It was a 2-months-project: most fun was sorting and counting the modules, then > taking the pictures. > A webshop solution seemed the best for online presentation. (Very interesting, I > never did that before) > > Functionality of the shop software is good. On the other hand this project > appears a bit too commercial now. > You even should be able to buy online over Paypal, but I'd prefer personal > contact. > > Joerg I am not in this market, but the URL you gave has an (obvious) typo! Regards Rob From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Nov 25 13:08:26 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:08:26 -0500 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <201511251841.tAPIfxE2024830@ultimate.com> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> <5650AC9A.6030409@bitsavers.org> <17D3A337-7C47-4858-A1AD-6831D24D25FC@comcast.net> <5650C830.7050302@bitsavers.org> <5655E5D8.9090104@heeltoe.com> <201511251841.tAPIfxE2024830@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <5656072A.1050900@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-11-25 1:41 PM, Phil Budne wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: >> .... Remember sumex-aim ? SumMacC. >> Anyway, I think the Kinetics fastpath was compiled with that.... > > Perhaps originally.... But when the FastPath code arrived at Shiva it > was using the SunOS 4 native compiler on Sun3. I moved it to gcc on Sun4. > > The 6/88 KIP release has CC=/usr/stanford/bin/cc68 > Rutgers KIP c. 1989 used gcc > >> There was also that wacky company in cambridge which made a hybrid >> c-compiler/c-interpreter. It worked really well but it wasn't quite >> right. I loved the idea but never bought one. That was around 1988, >> 1989? I always hoped to find the source code for that. > > Saber-C? It became "Code Center" by Centerline. Steve Kauffer kept it > going while working on startups (TripAdvisor being the successful one). > It ended up at ICS.COM: https://motif.ics.com/products/codecenter > > ISTR some product of that ilk that read and patched object code and > only worked on RISC platforms... > >> I think gcc was the standard for 68k from 1987 on. Yes, greenhills, but >> it's not clear it produced better code and it was really expensive. > > I never dealt with that many 68K compilers. I remember a whole slew > of problematic compilers and debuggers on 32x32 (Encore) and ROMP (IBM > PC/RT). At least of them couldn't handle cfront output and/or "Duff's > Device" Yes. As I hinted in my earlier post on this, bad/buggy/unmaintained vendor compilers are a big part of why gcc came to exist. And then much later, fittingly, it wiped them out and replaced most of them as a standard system compiler. :) --Toby > > phil > From kurtk7 at visi.com Wed Nov 25 13:18:44 2015 From: kurtk7 at visi.com (Kurt K) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:18:44 -0600 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <102EC4F4-3D34-45F2-9464-120874BD4D90@visi.com> They show sold out for the kits. Didn't see a link to ask if they'll ever get more in stock. > On Nov 24, 2015, at 1:46 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > > In answer to Kurts question - the link with boards to purchase is here: > http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ > >> On 24 November 2015 at 07:45, Mark Wickens wrote: >> >> Thanks for letting us know about this William - I'm sure there is still >> plenty of interest in Oberon, Modula-2, Modula-3 and other derivatives. >> >>> On 24 November 2015 at 04:26, Kurt K wrote: >>> >>> Where did you order the Oberon Station. I didn't see a link off the >>> project page. >>> >>>>> On Nov 23, 2015, at 8:28 PM, William Maddox >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy to >>> behold. If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a minimalistic >>> education-oriented language and operating system designed after Wirth had >>> taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the 80's. >>>> >>>> The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an >>> FPGA, instead of the NS3032 in the orginal Ceres workstations. >>> Originally, it required a Digilent "Spartan 3 Starter Kit" with a >>> custom-built daughterboard providing a few additional connectors. This >>> board is no longer made, however, and no other FPGA development board >>> appears to provide the 32-bit wide fast SRAM the Oberon CPU required. >>>> Recently, a new board, the OberonStation, has come onto the market >>> that was designed specifically for Oberon, and will boot up Oberon 2013 out >>> of the box. It also looks like an excellent platform for other >>> retro-style FPGA CPU designs that want to stay away from complex SDRAM >>> controllers and the caches they like to feed. >>>> >>>> My OberonStation arrived a couple of days ago, and it's really amazing >>> to see what can be done with a hardware and software stack that is small >>> enough to actually read and understand. >>>> https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ >>>> >>>> http://www.projectoberon.com/ >>>> >>>> OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform >>>> --Bill >>>> >>>> | | >>>> | | | | | | >>>> | OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform/*{{{*/* html .tiddler >>> {height:1%;}body {font-size:.75em; font-family:arial,helvetica; margin:0; >>> padding:0;}h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6 {font-weight:bold; | >>>> | | >>>> | View on oberonstation.x10.mx | Preview by Yahoo | >>>> | | >>>> | | > From kurtk7 at visi.com Wed Nov 25 13:18:44 2015 From: kurtk7 at visi.com (Kurt K) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:18:44 -0600 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <102EC4F4-3D34-45F2-9464-120874BD4D90@visi.com> They show sold out for the kits. Didn't see a link to ask if they'll ever get more in stock. > On Nov 24, 2015, at 1:46 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > > In answer to Kurts question - the link with boards to purchase is here: > http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ > >> On 24 November 2015 at 07:45, Mark Wickens wrote: >> >> Thanks for letting us know about this William - I'm sure there is still >> plenty of interest in Oberon, Modula-2, Modula-3 and other derivatives. >> >>> On 24 November 2015 at 04:26, Kurt K wrote: >>> >>> Where did you order the Oberon Station. I didn't see a link off the >>> project page. >>> >>>>> On Nov 23, 2015, at 8:28 PM, William Maddox >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy to >>> behold. If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a minimalistic >>> education-oriented language and operating system designed after Wirth had >>> taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the 80's. >>>> >>>> The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an >>> FPGA, instead of the NS3032 in the orginal Ceres workstations. >>> Originally, it required a Digilent "Spartan 3 Starter Kit" with a >>> custom-built daughterboard providing a few additional connectors. This >>> board is no longer made, however, and no other FPGA development board >>> appears to provide the 32-bit wide fast SRAM the Oberon CPU required. >>>> Recently, a new board, the OberonStation, has come onto the market >>> that was designed specifically for Oberon, and will boot up Oberon 2013 out >>> of the box. It also looks like an excellent platform for other >>> retro-style FPGA CPU designs that want to stay away from complex SDRAM >>> controllers and the caches they like to feed. >>>> >>>> My OberonStation arrived a couple of days ago, and it's really amazing >>> to see what can be done with a hardware and software stack that is small >>> enough to actually read and understand. >>>> https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ >>>> >>>> http://www.projectoberon.com/ >>>> >>>> OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform >>>> --Bill >>>> >>>> | | >>>> | | | | | | >>>> | OberonStation - The Oberon computing platform/*{{{*/* html .tiddler >>> {height:1%;}body {font-size:.75em; font-family:arial,helvetica; margin:0; >>> padding:0;}h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6 {font-weight:bold; | >>>> | | >>>> | View on oberonstation.x10.mx | Preview by Yahoo | >>>> | | >>>> | | > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 25 13:22:20 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:22:20 -0800 Subject: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <5655E5D8.9090104@heeltoe.com> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> <5650AC9A.6030409@bitsavers.org> <17D3A337-7C47-4858-A1AD-6831D24D25FC@comcast.net> <5650C830.7050302@bitsavers.org> <5655E5D8.9090104@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <56560A6C.1030405@bitsavers.org> On 11/25/15 8:46 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > In 1987 gcc would compile to 68k quite well. Before that I seem to recall that there was also a C compiler from Standford, from sumex (wow - do I still have those brain cells?). Remember sumex-aim ? > SumMacC. Anyway, I think the Kinetics fastpath was compiled with that and I could swear I was using it as a C compiler on a vax-11/750 running mt. xinu in mid 80's. Find someone from pixar - they > were using it to compile Macintosh code. I don't know the lineage of that compiler, but I think it was a port of something older. > SumMacC was based on MIT/LCS/Terman's port of pcc for the NuMachine project. I thought I had the sources, but all I've been able to turn up is the MIT compiler collection tape with a bunch of obscure pcc ports. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Nov 25 13:27:52 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:27:52 -0500 Subject: Obscure pcc targets - Re: 1980s/1990s 68k C cross (and not so cross) compilers In-Reply-To: <56560A6C.1030405@bitsavers.org> References: <56504D4F.5010300@philpem.me.uk> <5650A12F.1070704@arachelian.com> <5650A9EE.908@sydex.com> <5650AC9A.6030409@bitsavers.org> <17D3A337-7C47-4858-A1AD-6831D24D25FC@comcast.net> <5650C830.7050302@bitsavers.org> <5655E5D8.9090104@heeltoe.com> <56560A6C.1030405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <56560BB8.8070608@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-11-25 2:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/25/15 8:46 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > >> In 1987 gcc would compile to 68k quite well. Before that I seem to >> recall that there was also a C compiler from Standford, from sumex >> (wow - do I still have those brain cells?). Remember sumex-aim ? >> SumMacC. Anyway, I think the Kinetics fastpath was compiled with that >> and I could swear I was using it as a C compiler on a vax-11/750 >> running mt. xinu in mid 80's. Find someone from pixar - they >> were using it to compile Macintosh code. I don't know the lineage of >> that compiler, but I think it was a port of something older. >> > > SumMacC was based on MIT/LCS/Terman's port of pcc for the NuMachine > project. > I thought I had the sources, but all I've been able to turn up is the > MIT compiler collection tape with > a bunch of obscure pcc ports. > > > > > Actually some of us might be interested in those pcc ports (targets?). The BSTJ Unix issue mentioned a number of exotic Unix ports and I'd always assumed the compilers for those platforms were no longer findable. So it might be interesting to know what is on that tape. --Toby From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 25 13:38:24 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 19:38:24 +0000 Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU In-Reply-To: <053401d127a2$efa79ea0$cef6dbe0$@ntlworld.com> References: <014501d12326$890e7310$9b2b5930$@ntlworld.com> <56551765.1050706@pico-systems.com> <04ce01d12753$b33a5b50$19af11f0$@ntlworld.com> <5655E3A5.5000905@pico-systems.com>, <053401d127a2$efa79ea0$cef6dbe0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > My reading of the Qbus spec is that P OK and DC OK are active high. That diagram They are, for a very logical reason. Remember you can wire-AND open-collector signals -- that is link them together so that any driver can pull the line low and the line will only be high if all driver transistors are cut off. Now if you have a large system with multiple boxes and power supplies then any supply can pull P OK and DC OK low if there is a problem. Only if all supplies are present and correct will the signals be high. -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 25 15:18:00 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:18:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Replacing MicroVAX II PSU With a Modern PSU Message-ID: <20151125211800.B7FC418C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Robert Jarratt > When the power is OK the output of the inverters is low, so the > transistors are off, presumably allowing the signals to float high. > When the power is not OK, the inverters are high, turning on the > transistors and shorting the signal to ground. That is correct. One thing to watch for: in a machine which does not have bus pullups on the backplane (some do, but many, especially early DEC ones, do not), if you run it without a CPU card plugged in (e.g. to test the power supply), BPOK/BDCOK will be at 0V even if the power is OK because there's no pullup to pull it high (unless driven low). This may also affect some of the lights, e.g. the 'Power OK' light in some DEC boxes - it won't come on, even though power is in fact fine, and working. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 25 15:35:19 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:35:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: <20151125213519.7A77518C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Toby Thain > it would be easy to interface to a board exposing such USB features > *from a separate Linux system* - because of that driver. Ah, OK - I'm so used to people putting Linux on the embedded processor in their rice cooker that, not clearly understanding what was being talked about, I assumed it was wanted to run Linux on the uC. Still, I guess I don't really see the value in making the QSIC, or some things plugged into it, 'available' from some other machine. AFAIAC, it's only a peripheral to the PDP-11. > I did end up studying MSCP ... in some detail though. Ah, we'll put you in charge of implementing the MSCP controller emulations, then! :-) (Those are something I oersonally have no interest in, but I can see a viable case for doing them.) Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 25 15:56:13 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:56:13 -0000 Subject: Blimey! Message-ID: <057201d127cc$1a5d7880$4f186980$@ntlworld.com> ?567 for a Research Machines 380Z. Suppose I will have to give up hope ever getting one of those . L http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Research-Machine-380Z-RM-380Z-Tested-Working-/2317 54184801? Regards Rob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 25 19:13:10 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:13:10 +0000 Subject: Blimey! In-Reply-To: <057201d127cc$1a5d7880$4f186980$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 25/11/2015 21:56, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > ?567 for a Research Machines 380Z. Suppose I will have to give up hope ever > getting one of those . L > > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Research-Machine-380Z-RM-380Z-Tested-Working-/2317 > 54184801? > Wow. I know the seller of that too, but didn't know he had one of those. Shame, mine still has 'issues' and is on the Todo list once I stop fixing ZX Spectrums and finish the PET4032 and and and.... :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Nov 25 22:41:02 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:41:02 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >On 2015-11-24 16:35, Al Kossow wrote: > >> >On 11/23/15 11:46 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> Your native interface have the additional problem that in addition to >>> requiring people to write their own device driver for any OS usage, it >>> will be rather difficult to get booting from it, since that >>> require special support. >> >> There is no reason you can't have two simulated controllers, one small >> enough and early enough to boot a range of operating systems (RL02?), >> then >> another which exports a simple block-level interface which would be >> simple enough to easily write drivers against. > > True. But having your system on an RL02 is still no fun. It's a rather > small disk, which cause some headache for larger systems. Actually, by V05.05 of RT-11, it was impossible to have all of the Source Code files on a single RL02 even just for the RT-11 portion. If you collected all of the binary distributions for V05.07 of RT-11 and the layered products, that would also exceed a single RL02. >> RL02 is also interesting because there was a 22 bit version for qbus. > > That's one definition of "interesting". :-) > >> I'm trying to remember if DSD had extended block length or partioning >> for their controllers > > Not sure about it, but what I normally observed was that 3rd party > controllers using large disks for some DEC disk usually put several > logical disks on one physical disk. You could call that partitioning. For example, the DSD 880/30 (from Data Systems Design of course) emulates 3 RL02 disk drives using a single internal (non-removable) hard drive. The box also holds a single RX03 floppy disk drive (8" floppy disk drive which supports using single-sided media specified by DEC as an RX02 floppy in addition to media which have the same physical interface, but which are double-sided). For a Qbus system, the dual module controller was the interface to both the three RL02 hard drives and the single RX03 floppy drive. I don't know if DSD also made a separate controller for the Unibus for the DSD 880/30. With regard to the address support by the controller for the Qbus, the floppy drive definitely supported only an 18-bit address. That 18-bit ONLY support by DSD was identical to the 18-bit support that DEC provided for its Qbus controller for the RX02, so both DEC and DSD needed a bounce buffer managed by software to support the RX02 floppy disk for systems with more than 256 KB of physical memory. As for DSD support for the RL02 for a 22-bit buffer address, a quick look at the DSD manual was not able to say one way or the other. However, it seems more likely the the DSD controller for the RL02 supported ONLY an 18-bit address. I have all the DSD hardware, but it is not operational at this point. If anyone else has experience with the DSD controller for the emulated RL02, let us know if there was 22-bit address support for its emulated RL02 drive. Jerome Fine From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 23:57:00 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:57:00 -0700 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <5654382D.5090805@update.uu.se> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <5654274C.10207@gmail.com> <5654382D.5090805@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > The RH11 do DMA, just like all other disk controllers I know of. IIRC, the RX11/RX211 (Unibus) and RXV11/RXV21 (Qbus) don't do DMA. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 16:34:58 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:34:58 +1300 Subject: PDP11GUI 1.47 In-Reply-To: <565592E1.1030009@t-online.de> References: <565592E1.1030009@t-online.de> Message-ID: *goes to URL* Wait, what? 11/70 hardware console functionality? But links are placeholders... work in progress? Mike On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:52 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > Folks, > a new version of PDP11GUI is online. > It fixes some errors, including "Error 103", which occured when running > MACRO11 without administrator privileges. > There were also problems under Win10. > > Download from http://retrocmp.com/pdp-11/pdp11gui > > Bug feedback is necessary! > > Enjoy, > Joerg > > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 26 00:08:39 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:08:39 +0000 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <5654274C.10207@gmail.com> <5654382D.5090805@update.uu.se>, Message-ID: > > The RH11 do DMA, just like all other disk controllers I know of. > > IIRC, the RX11/RX211 (Unibus) and RXV11/RXV21 (Qbus) don't do DMA. The RX11/RXV11 don't do DMA, but the RX211 and RXV21 do, I think -tony From jsw at ieee.org Thu Nov 26 01:27:39 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:27:39 -0600 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> Message-ID: <3305DF9E-F0E9-4518-BF69-5593840AC46B@ieee.org> > > On Nov 25, 2015, at 10:41 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > ?? > For example, the DSD 880/30 (from Data Systems Design of course) emulates > 3 RL02 disk drives using a single internal (non-removable) hard drive. The box > also holds a single RX03 floppy disk drive (8" floppy disk drive which supports > using single-sided media specified by DEC as an RX02 floppy in addition to > media which have the same physical interface, but which are double-sided). > For a Qbus system, the dual module controller was the interface to both the > three RL02 hard drives and the single RX03 floppy drive. I don't know if > DSD also made a separate controller for the Unibus for the DSD 880/30. > > With regard to the address support by the controller for the Qbus, the floppy > drive definitely supported only an 18-bit address. That 18-bit ONLY support > by DSD was identical to the 18-bit support that DEC provided for its Qbus > controller for the RX02, so both DEC and DSD needed a bounce buffer > managed by software to support the RX02 floppy disk for systems with more > than 256 KB of physical memory. > > As for DSD support for the RL02 for a 22-bit buffer address, a quick look > at the DSD manual was not able to say one way or the other. However, > it seems more likely the the DSD controller for the RL02 supported ONLY > an 18-bit address. I have all the DSD hardware, but it is not operational > at this point. If anyone else has experience with the DSD controller for > the emulated RL02, let us know if there was 22-bit address support for > its emulated RL02 drive. > > Jerome Fine Confirming that the original DSD 880 only had support for 18 bits DMA. There are only 2 bits in the CS register for extended addressing. I doubled checked the RT-11 handlers I had. There was a Unibus controller for the original 7.8Mbyte RL02 reduced drive. Google 040018-01 DSD 880 Users Manual May81 The Sigma SDC RXV31 controller supported 22 bit DMA. See 400255-C SDC-RXV31 Floppy Ctrl Man Aug86 I used both, but double sided compatibility between the two products was occasionally spotty. Never did determine if it was a controller, floppy drive or media issue. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Nov 26 03:01:45 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 04:01:45 -0500 Subject: Wanted EXTEL Printers and con systems manusl etc anything related. Message-ID: <8e983.4b745cf2.43882479@aol.com> Wanted EXTEL Printers and con systems manual etc anything related. drop me a message off list with EXTEL in the subj line. Many Thanks Ed# From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 03:08:19 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:08:19 +1300 Subject: 8" hard disk storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: Many moons ago I had a small fleet of pdp-11/04s, pulled out of a research synchrotron. (well, not *literally* out of the synchrotron, they probably wouldn't work if they had been...) They all had disk subsystems made by a company called Baydel; a 19" rack module, half-height like an 11/04, containing an 8" hard disk and power supply, hooked up to a quad-size Unibus card. Emulated a bunch of RK05s. Can't recall the nature of the interface between the card and the drive. Over the years I appear to have carelessly and unintentionally traded or given away ALL the bloody things! Anyone else have one, had one, or know someone who might? I've Googled and there's a deafening silence, apart from me asking the same question on Usenet ten years ago! Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Nov 26 03:23:49 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 04:23:49 -0500 Subject: [cc-talk] HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE! Message-ID: <8fb3c.430e293b.438829a5@aol.com> HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE! Have a great day and fun and food! >From the SMECC Folk! _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Nov 26 03:47:08 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:47:08 +0000 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving Message-ID: <5656D51C.1090606@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Happy Thanksgiving to all my US friends on the list. A nicer more helpful bunch of people I have yet to meet. It looks like I'm coming over next fall to go the 2016 Chicago vintage show. I'll be bringing my traveling panel exhibit with me. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From trash80 at internode.on.net Thu Nov 26 04:23:10 2015 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 21:23:10 +1100 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <5656D51C.1090606@btinternet.com> References: <5656D51C.1090606@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <000501d12834$73817750$5a8465f0$@internode.on.net> Don't forget your Aussie fiends :-) Our daughter worked in the states for about 2.5 years and we visited her of course and it was Thanksgiving. We picked up the tradition, not for the same reason you guys do maybe, but we found it a good opportunity to get together with friends and family and have a good meal together. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of rod Sent: Thursday, 26 November 2015 8:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Happy Thanksgiving Hi Guys Happy Thanksgiving to all my US friends on the list. A nicer more helpful bunch of people I have yet to meet. It looks like I'm coming over next fall to go the 2016 Chicago vintage show. I'll be bringing my traveling panel exhibit with me. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Nov 26 04:44:11 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:44:11 +0000 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <000501d12834$73817750$5a8465f0$@internode.on.net> References: <5656D51C.1090606@btinternet.com> <000501d12834$73817750$5a8465f0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <5656E27B.7060107@btinternet.com> I'm surprised that after surviving the journey from the UK the aussies don't have a week long blowout every year. R On 26/11/15 10:23, Kevin Parker wrote: > Don't forget your Aussie fiends :-) > > Our daughter worked in the states for about 2.5 years and we visited her of course and it was Thanksgiving. > > We picked up the tradition, not for the same reason you guys do maybe, but we found it a good opportunity to get together with friends and family and have a good meal together. > > > ++++++++++ > Kevin Parker > > ++++++++++ > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of rod > Sent: Thursday, 26 November 2015 8:47 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Happy Thanksgiving > > Hi Guys > Happy Thanksgiving to all my US friends on the list. > A nicer more helpful bunch of people I have yet to meet. > > It looks like I'm coming over next fall to go the 2016 Chicago vintage show. > I'll be bringing my traveling panel exhibit with me. > > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Nov 26 05:03:33 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:03:33 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <5654274C.10207@gmail.com> <5654382D.5090805@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5656E705.5060807@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-26 07:08, tony duell wrote: >>> The RH11 do DMA, just like all other disk controllers I know of. >> >> IIRC, the RX11/RX211 (Unibus) and RXV11/RXV21 (Qbus) don't do DMA. > > The RX11/RXV11 don't do DMA, but the RX211 and RXV21 do, I think Right. And the RXV21 only have 18-bit addressing for DMA. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From j_hoppe at t-online.de Thu Nov 26 01:29:35 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:29:35 +0100 Subject: PDP11GUI 1.47 In-Reply-To: References: <565592E1.1030009@t-online.de> Message-ID: <5656B4DF.7020403@t-online.de> > *goes to URL* > > Wait, what? 11/70 hardware console functionality? > > But links are placeholders... work in progress? See what you mean ... links fixed. Joerg > > Mike > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:52 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote: >> Folks, >> a new version of PDP11GUI is online. >> It fixes some errors, including "Error 103", which occured when running >> MACRO11 without administrator privileges. >> There were also problems under Win10. >> >> Download from http://retrocmp.com/pdp-11/pdp11gui >> >> Bug feedback is necessary! >> >> Enjoy, >> Joerg >> >> > > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 02:52:40 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 21:52:40 +1300 Subject: PDP11GUI 1.47 In-Reply-To: <5656B4DF.7020403@t-online.de> References: <565592E1.1030009@t-online.de> <5656B4DF.7020403@t-online.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 8:29 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > > > >> *goes to URL* >> >> Wait, what? 11/70 hardware console functionality? >> >> But links are placeholders... work in progress? > > See what you mean ... links fixed. *Some* links are fixed :-) The link from the main pdp-11 GUI page now works. But the link in the left side menu for the 11/70 console panel (the one immediately above 'SimH telnet...') goes instead to the GUI page. And the sublinks to Physical, Driver, and Application still go to placeholders. And in http://retrocmp.com/pdp-11/pdp11gui/1170-console-panel we have, right at the top, a link to http://retrocmp.com/component/content/38-dec-hardware-errors-and-how-to-repair-them/91-yapppp-yet-another-pdp-11-panel-project-page?Itemid=156 which 404s. I'm not giving you a hard time out of idle sadism, I'm just very curious to see how you implemented a USB interface to an 11/70 panel :-) Mike From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Nov 26 05:07:12 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:07:12 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <5654274C.10207@gmail.com> <5654382D.5090805@update.uu.se>, Message-ID: <5656E7E0.4090004@compsys.to> >tony duell wrote: >>>The RH11 do DMA, just like all other disk controllers I know of. >>> >>> >>IIRC, the RX11/RX211 (Unibus) and RXV11/RXV21 (Qbus) don't do DMA. >> >The RX11/RXV11 don't do DMA, but the RX211 and RXV21 do, I think > I can confirm that the RXV11 for the Qbus does not and I am also fairly confident that the RX11 for the Unibus does not as well. Under RT-11, the device driver is the DX(X).SYS device driver and an inspection of the code confirms the lack of DMA as well. I can confirm that the RXV21 for the Qbus does and I am also fairly confident that the RX211 for the Unibus does as well. Under RT-11, the device driver is the DY(X).SYS device driver and an inspection of the code confirms the presence of DMA as well. More in my reply to Jerry Weiss. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Nov 26 06:29:52 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:29:52 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5656FB40.306@compsys.to> >Jerry Weiss wrote: >>On Nov 25, 2015, at 10:41 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>For example, the DSD 880/30 (from Data Systems Design of course) emulates >>3 RL02 disk drives using a single internal (non-removable) hard drive. The box >>also holds a single RX03 floppy disk drive (8" floppy disk drive which supports >>using single-sided media specified by DEC as an RX02 floppy in addition to >>media which have the same physical interface, but which are double-sided). >>For a Qbus system, the dual module controller was the interface to both the >>three RL02 hard drives and the single RX03 floppy drive. I don't know if >>DSD also made a separate controller for the Unibus for the DSD 880/30. >> >>With regard to the address support by the controller for the Qbus, the floppy >>drive definitely supported only an 18-bit address. That 18-bit ONLY support >>by DSD was identical to the 18-bit support that DEC provided for its Qbus >>controller for the RX02, so both DEC and DSD needed a bounce buffer >>managed by software to support the RX02 floppy disk for systems with more >>than 256 KB of physical memory. >> >>As for DSD support for the RL02 for a 22-bit buffer address, a quick look >>at the DSD manual was not able to say one way or the other. However, >>it seems more likely the the DSD controller for the RL02 supported ONLY >>an 18-bit address. I have all the DSD hardware, but it is not operational >>at this point. If anyone else has experience with the DSD controller for >>the emulated RL02, let us know if there was 22-bit address support for >>its emulated RL02 drive. >> >Confirming that the original DSD 880 only had support for 18 bits DMA. There are only 2 bits >in the CS register for extended addressing. I doubled checked the RT-11 handlers I had. >There was a Unibus controller for the original 7.8Mbyte RL02 reduced drive. >Google 040018-01 DSD 880 Users Manual May81 > > As I mentioned, a quick (about 15 minutes) look in the DSD 880/30 manual did not suggest that the RL02 emulation included hardware to support a 22-bit address. My first drive was, indeed, the DSD 880/8, if I remember the number correctly, which did have only the 7.8 MB RL02 reduced drive which you just specified. This reply is confirmation and a bit of clarification that the part number was the DSD 880/8 as opposed to the enhanced model, DSD 880/30, which emulated three full sized RL02 drives. Note that both the DSD 880/8 and the DSD 880/30 included a single RX03 floppy drive. And, of course, both also used a dual module as the controller in the Qbus. Also, as is noted above there must have been a controller for the Unibus. Thank you for confirming that the RL02 emulation supported only an 18-bit address. >The Sigma SDC RXV31 controller supported 22 bit DMA. >See 400255-C SDC-RXV31 Floppy Ctrl Man Aug86 > > I saw that model at one point. It was the only one I ever saw, so I did not bother to include 22-bit support in the DYX.SYS device handler - mostly because I would not have been able to test the code. >I used both, but double sided compatibility between the two products was >occasionally spotty. Never did determine if it was a controller, floppy drive or media >issue. > Both the DSD 880/8 and the DSD 880/30 supported double-sided media for the RX03 floppy drive. A check of the DSD 880/30 manual from 1981 includes directions to modify the DYX.SYS device driver to support double sided operation with V04.00 of RT-11. Inspection of the file, DY.MAC from V04.00 of RT-11, confirms that DEC had code which supported double-sided media and even the CSR specs in the DEC RXV21 controller specifies, as far as I can remember, a bit to determine if the RX03 floppy drive has detected a double-sided floppy in the drive. Note that the DEC RX02 floppy drive did not have that electronics or hardware to detect double-sided media. It is possible that DEC did produce an in-house RX03 drive, but I am not aware of DEC actually selling RX03 drives to customers. PLUS, the code in the file, DY.MAC from V04.00 of RT-11, has bugs (at least in the distribution copy released with V04.00 of RT-11) which would prevent the correct operation of a double-sided media. One other point of interest is that by 1983 when DEC released V05.00 of RT-11, the extra code with support for double-sided media had been removed from DY.MAC. It probably should be mentioned that a different position is used for the index hole for double-sided media (about 1/2" more to the right) as opposed to the location of the index hole for single-sided media. The DSD 880/30 RX03 floppy drive has TWO detection circuits in the two possible positions to determine which media was present in the drive. Because every floppy media that I ever saw has been coated on both sides and could support double-sided operation even if the index hole was in the single-sided location within the cardboard jacket, I experimented with adding the index holes required for double-sided operation and covered up the single-sided index holes. After that worked successfully, I became disappointed that I had to deface the floppy media with the extra holes. The simple solution was to use a DPDT switch and flip the detection circuits so that the RX03 drive would signal a double-sided media what there was a single-sided index hole and the DPDT switch was in the alternate position. To add to the success of that extra switch, the DSD 880/30 supported an off-line LLF (Low Level Format) which, of course, no DEC controller ever supported for 8" floppy media. In answer to the question of support for double-sided media, there are two methods of using both sides of the floppy. One method is to read all of one side, then read all of the other side of the floppy media. The second method is to read both sides of the media for each cylinder, then increment to the next cylinder. Based on the code for DY.MAC which was present in V04.00 of RT-11, DEC choose the former method. It seems possible that if you were using floppy media written via one method and read by the opposite method, there would obviously be some confusion. The SMS-1000 (I hope I have remembered the part number correctly) includes an 8" RX03 type of drive which can handle both single-sided and double-sided media - although the built-in controller is MSCP based and both the internal hard drive and the single RX03 floppy drive are considered DU: or MSCP devices under RT-11. When single-sided floppy media are used, there is no difficulty. However, if an 8" media that is double-sided is inserted and files are written to that floppy, the results can'r be read on the DSD 880/30 using a modified DYX.SYS device driver which supports double-sided operation since it is quite obvious that the MSCP controller in the SMS-1000 wrote both sides of the floppy before changing cylinders. This might have been the cause of the problem between the two floppy drives. I agree it is doubtful, but I can't think of anything else. FINALLY, due to the 18-bit address restriction with all DYX.SYS device drivers under RT-11, I added code to support a bounce buffer that allows the user buffer to be in a 22-bit location, but still be able to support DMA to the silo on the controller. The bounce buffer must be in the first 256 KB of memory, but the device driver performs the extra transfer one word at a time between the bounce buffer and the user buffer if the latter is above the 256 KB boundary. Jerome Fine From gerardcjat at free.fr Thu Nov 26 09:04:18 2015 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 16:04:18 +0100 Subject: Flash (or ide) storage for HP-2000? Message-ID: Hello, Interesting, but could you provide a complete link. >From the short link you gave, I found nothing related ??? --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 10:08:37 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:08:37 -0800 Subject: Flash (or ide) storage for HP-2000? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some people have built their own. Some information here. http://newton.freehostia.com/hp/ From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Thu Nov 26 10:50:26 2015 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 17:50:26 +0100 Subject: 8" hard disk storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56573852.9000406@bluewin.ch> On 26.11.2015 10:08, Mike Ross wrote: > Many moons ago I had a small fleet of pdp-11/04s, pulled out of a > research synchrotron. > > (well, not *literally* out of the synchrotron, they probably wouldn't > work if they had been...) > > They all had disk subsystems made by a company called Baydel; a 19" > rack module, half-height like an 11/04, containing an 8" hard disk and > power supply, hooked up to a quad-size Unibus card. Emulated a bunch > of RK05s. Can't recall the nature of the interface between the card > and the drive. > > Over the years I appear to have carelessly and unintentionally traded > or given away ALL the bloody things! Anyone else have one, had one, or > know someone who might? I've Googled and there's a deafening silence, > apart from me asking the same question on Usenet ten years ago! > > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > Baydel used Honeywell-Bull D120 and D140 8" mididisks. Is that what you had in mind ? Jos From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 10:58:47 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:58:47 -0600 Subject: Blimey! In-Reply-To: <057201d127cc$1a5d7880$4f186980$@ntlworld.com> References: <057201d127cc$1a5d7880$4f186980$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56573A47.5010204@gmail.com> On 11/25/2015 03:56 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > ?567 for a Research Machines 380Z. Suppose I will have to give up hope ever > getting one of those?. L That's... insane! It looks like a stock 40-column machine, and the text makes it sound like one of the drives is faulty. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 11:05:02 2015 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 17:05:02 +0000 Subject: Blimey! In-Reply-To: <56573A47.5010204@gmail.com> References: <057201d127cc$1a5d7880$4f186980$@ntlworld.com> <56573A47.5010204@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 26 November 2015 at 16:58, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/25/2015 03:56 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> ?567 for a Research Machines 380Z. Suppose I will have to give up hope >> ever >> getting one of those?. L >> > > That's... insane! It looks like a stock 40-column machine, and the text > makes it sound like one of the drives is faulty. Insane given that I got mine for free and all I had to do was drive to Dartford (UK) which I drive past fairly regularly anyway. As we all know, if someone wants something badly enough on ebah.... -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jsw at ieee.org Thu Nov 26 11:22:43 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:22:43 -0600 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <5656FB40.306@compsys.to> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> <5656FB40.306@compsys.to> Message-ID: <782F3F5E-1050-41DD-B7CB-FB9DE4C19548@ieee.org> On Nov 26, 2015, at 6:29 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > This a nice summary of the state of affairs for DEC/RT-11 8 inches Floppies. > >> The Sigma SDC RXV31 controller supported 22 bit DMA. See 400255-C SDC-RXV31 Floppy Ctrl Man Aug86 >> > I saw that model at one point. It was the only one I ever saw, so I > did not bother to include 22-bit support in the DYX.SYS device > handler - mostly because I would not have been able to test the code. I have a idle RXV31 controller and a DSDD 8 inch floppy drive on the list of devices to restore. Need to scramble up a 24 V supply. The Dilog DQ419 looks to be identical to the Sigma controller, including 22 bit support. In my collection of handlers, I don?t see any with extra code to support 22 bits. Thinking back, I?m not sure why I never noticed this before. > >> I used both, but double sided compatibility between the two products was >> occasionally spotty. Never did determine if it was a controller, floppy drive or media >> issue. >> > Both the DSD 880/8 and the DSD 880/30 supported double-sided > media for the RX03 floppy drive. A check of the DSD 880/30 manual > from 1981 includes directions to modify the DYX.SYS device driver > to support double sided operation with V04.00 of RT-11. Inspection > of the file, DY.MAC from V04.00 of RT-11, confirms that DEC had > code which supported double-sided media and even the CSR specs > in the DEC RXV21 controller specifies, as far as I can remember, a > bit to determine if the RX03 floppy drive has detected a double-sided > floppy in the drive. Note that the DEC RX02 floppy drive did not have > that electronics or hardware to detect double-sided media. It is possible > that DEC did produce an in-house RX03 drive, but I am not aware of > DEC actually selling RX03 drives to customers. PLUS, the code in the > file, DY.MAC from V04.00 of RT-11, has bugs (at least in the distribution > copy released with V04.00 of RT-11) which would prevent the correct > operation of a double-sided media. One other point of interest is that > by 1983 when DEC released V05.00 of RT-11, the extra code with > support for double-sided media had been removed from DY.MAC. > We had DSD 440, 480?s and both 880?s, Sigma Information Systems or whatever was cheapest when we ordered it. We used floppies as long term storage and often from INMAC. So media quality and consistency was not high on our list. We collect quite a lot of patched and tweaked handlers along the way. > It probably should be mentioned that a different position is used for > the index hole for double-sided media (about 1/2" more to the right) > as opposed to the location of the index hole for single-sided media. > The DSD 880/30 RX03 floppy drive has TWO detection circuits > in the two possible positions to determine which media was present > in the drive. Because every floppy media that I ever saw has been > coated on both sides and could support double-sided operation > even if the index hole was in the single-sided location within the > cardboard jacket, I experimented with adding the index holes > required for double-sided operation and covered up the single-sided > index holes. After that worked successfully, I became disappointed > that I had to deface the floppy media with the extra holes. The > simple solution was to use a DPDT switch and flip the detection > circuits so that the RX03 drive would signal a double-sided media > what there was a single-sided index hole and the DPDT switch was > in the alternate position. To add to the success of that extra switch, > the DSD 880/30 supported an off-line LLF (Low Level Format) > which, of course, no DEC controller ever supported for 8" floppy > media. I found the LLF was the most frustrating feature of the DSD 880 line. I never could trust a floppy so treated. Some of the other non-DEC controllers also had the feature. Given that we were sourcing media from sources that just stamped their brand on the floppy, I never got a handle on how to use the feature consistently. > > In answer to the question of support for double-sided media, there > are two methods of using both sides of the floppy. One method > is to read all of one side, then read all of the other side of the floppy > media. The second method is to read both sides of the media for > each cylinder, then increment to the next cylinder. Based on the > code for DY.MAC which was present in V04.00 of RT-11, DEC > choose the former method. It seems possible that if you were using > floppy media written via one method and read by the opposite > method, there would obviously be some confusion. The SMS-1000 > (I hope I have remembered the part number correctly) includes > an 8" RX03 type of drive which can handle both single-sided and > double-sided media - although the built-in controller is MSCP based > and both the internal hard drive and the single RX03 floppy drive are > considered DU: or MSCP devices under RT-11. When single-sided > floppy media are used, there is no difficulty. However, if an 8" media > that is double-sided is inserted and files are written to that floppy, > the results can'r be read on the DSD 880/30 using a modified DYX.SYS > device driver which supports double-sided operation since it is quite > obvious that the MSCP controller in the SMS-1000 wrote both sides > of the floppy before changing cylinders. This might have been the > cause of the problem between the two floppy drives. I agree it is > doubtful, but I can't think of anything else. > in our case, 99% of floppies were read on the same drive that wrote them, so it generally wasn?t a problem. When we moved code and data between systems, we stuck to RX02 formats to avoid all the compatibility hassles. Didn?t have any SMS-1000 in our shop, but we often collaborated with other researchers who had them and the same rule applied. > FINALLY, due to the 18-bit address restriction with all DYX.SYS > device drivers under RT-11, I added code to support a bounce buffer > that allows the user buffer to be in a 22-bit location, but still be able > to support DMA to the silo on the controller. The bounce buffer must > be in the first 256 KB of memory, but the device driver performs > the extra transfer one word at a time between the bounce buffer and > the user buffer if the latter is above the 256 KB boundary. We depended on the TSX+ feature to do the bounce automatically for the 18 bit controllers for the RK,DY, DL or DM. We never threw out anything working. On faster drives there was obviously a performance hit, dependent on the processor speed. For the RX02?/3?s I?m sure I measured it at one point, but on an 11/73 it never seemed to be perceptible on a daily basis. Our systems did data acquisition and floppies were used only apr?s experiment. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 12:04:03 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:04:03 -0600 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <5656D51C.1090606@btinternet.com> References: <5656D51C.1090606@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 3:47 AM, rod wrote: > Hi Guys > Happy Thanksgiving to all my US friends on the list. A nicer more helpful bunch of people I have yet to meet. > > It looks like I'm coming over next fall to go the 2016 Chicago vintage show. I'll be bringing my traveling panel exhibit with me. Rod - Thank you and glad to hear of another overseas visitor to our little show! j From wilson at dbit.com Thu Nov 26 12:07:03 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:07:03 -0500 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <000501d12834$73817750$5a8465f0$@internode.on.net> References: <5656D51C.1090606@btinternet.com> <000501d12834$73817750$5a8465f0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <20151126180703.GA23935@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 09:23:10PM +1100, Kevin Parker wrote: >We picked up the tradition, not for the same reason you guys do maybe, but >we found it a good opportunity to get together with friends and family and >have a good meal together. No, that's the same reason we do it. Happy xgiving, whoever's into it! John Wilson D Bit From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 26 12:21:56 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:21:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <20151126180703.GA23935@dbit.dbit.com> References: <5656D51C.1090606@btinternet.com> <000501d12834$73817750$5a8465f0$@internode.on.net> <20151126180703.GA23935@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >> We picked up the tradition, not for the same reason you guys do maybe, but >> we found it a good opportunity to get together with friends and family and >> have a good meal together. > No, that's the same reason we do it. > Happy xgiving, whoever's into it! We don't need a religious nor nationalistic excuse to have a Festival Of Gluttony! And, of course, the Celebration Of Consumerism (XMAS) has already begun. It used to start after Thanksgiving, then after Halloween, . . . Soon, it will lap itself and start before itself. With the loss of Comdex, our industry no longer seems to have a calendar. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Nov 26 12:37:19 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:37:19 -0500 Subject: Flash (or ide) storage for HP-2000? Message-ID: <9e3f3.f55111.4388ab5f@aol.com> ok pretty interesting but no driver for access-2000....unfortunately ! In a message dated 11/26/2015 9:08:52 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, glen.slick at gmail.com writes: Some people have built their own. Some information here. http://newton.freehostia.com/hp/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 11:19:18 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:19:18 -0500 Subject: PDP11GUI 1.47 In-Reply-To: References: <565592E1.1030009@t-online.de> <5656B4DF.7020403@t-online.de> Message-ID: > > I'm not giving you a hard time out of idle sadism, I'm just very > curious to see how you implemented a USB interface to an 11/70 panel > :-) > > Mike I appreciate this tool and look forward to trying the upgrade. Mostly I use with 11/40 to debug hy RL02 not booting. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 14:29:05 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:29:05 -0500 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <5656D51C.1090606@btinternet.com> References: <5656D51C.1090606@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Nov 26, 2015 4:47 AM, "rod" wrote: > > Hi Guys > Happy Thanksgiving to all my US friends on the list. > A nicer more helpful bunch of people I have yet to meet. > > It looks like I'm coming over next fall to go the 2016 Chicago vintage show. > I'll be bringing my traveling panel exhibit with me. > > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > Was that the same panel exhibit from the vcf europe? Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 15:01:07 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:01:07 -0800 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? Message-ID: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> Hi folks, I've begun repairing my PDP 11/40 and have tracked down the first major issue to the H745 (-15v) regulator. Before I dig into it, I just wanted to see if there are any common known failure cases... Otherwise I'll just dive into troubleshooting it. :) Thanks as always- - Ian Sent from my iPhone From j_hoppe at t-online.de Thu Nov 26 15:48:45 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:48:45 +0100 Subject: Large batch of DEC flip chips In-Reply-To: <5554A8E4.20209@sbcglobal.net> References: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de> <5554A8E4.20209@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56577E3D.6050309@t-online.de> Bob, my flip chip collection is finally online. See retrocmp.com/flipchipshop best regards, Joerg Am 14.05.2015 um 15:53 schrieb Bob Rosenbloom: > On 5/14/2015 4:36 AM, J?rg Hoppe wrote: >> Here's the opportunity to buy&save batches of DEC flip chip modules. >> It must be several thousands, I estimate the total weight of the boxes >> to over 100kg. >> Most are "red" logic series, but other colors are there too. >> Apparently they are plugged from different machine types, maybe even >> PDP-10s or -12s. >> >> Of course I'm greedy! >> >> But while we have a PDP-12 and some DECtapes here, this amount is >> mostly useless and will occupy much precious space until the end of my >> days. >> >> So question: Is there any reasonable demand for flip chips in the >> community? >> And more difficult: any hint about the price I can offer? >> >> Thanks for your opinion, >> Joerg >> > You can search ebay for seller: trailer426f > > > He has some 100's of R series over the years. Many sell for between $10 > and $20 > > There is definitely interest, I have bought more that 30 from him. > > Bob > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 17:51:30 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 12:51:30 +1300 Subject: 8" hard disk storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <56573852.9000406@bluewin.ch> References: <56573852.9000406@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: Interesting, didn't know that. Was as much or more interested in the board. Mike On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 5:50 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > On 26.11.2015 10:08, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> Many moons ago I had a small fleet of pdp-11/04s, pulled out of a >> research synchrotron. >> >> (well, not *literally* out of the synchrotron, they probably wouldn't >> work if they had been...) >> >> They all had disk subsystems made by a company called Baydel; a 19" >> rack module, half-height like an 11/04, containing an 8" hard disk and >> power supply, hooked up to a quad-size Unibus card. Emulated a bunch >> of RK05s. Can't recall the nature of the interface between the card >> and the drive. >> >> Over the years I appear to have carelessly and unintentionally traded >> or given away ALL the bloody things! Anyone else have one, had one, or >> know someone who might? I've Googled and there's a deafening silence, >> apart from me asking the same question on Usenet ten years ago! >> >> Mike >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >> > Baydel used Honeywell-Bull D120 and D140 8" mididisks. > Is that what you had in mind ? > > Jos -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Nov 26 20:31:57 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 02:31:57 +0000 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: References: <5656D51C.1090606@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5657C09D.9020100@btinternet.com> Not me I make replacement front panels for PDP-8 and PDP-11 Rod On 26/11/2015 20:29, william degnan wrote: > On Nov 26, 2015 4:47 AM, "rod" wrote: >> Hi Guys >> Happy Thanksgiving to all my US friends on the list. >> A nicer more helpful bunch of people I have yet to meet. >> >> It looks like I'm coming over next fall to go the 2016 Chicago vintage > show. >> I'll be bringing my traveling panel exhibit with me. >> >> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >> >> > Was that the same panel exhibit from the vcf europe? > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Nov 26 23:13:42 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 06:13:42 +0100 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? In-Reply-To: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> References: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151127051342.GA5219@Update.UU.SE> I can only say that they fail often. We have replaced lots in our 11/70. Luckily we have had spares. Sometimes the failure has been rather catastrofic with blown components. I think these modules run quite hot since discoloured pcb:s are common. /P On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 01:01:07PM -0800, Ian Finder wrote: > Hi folks, > > I've begun repairing my PDP 11/40 and have tracked down the first major issue to the H745 (-15v) regulator. > > Before I dig into it, I just wanted to see if there are any common known failure cases... Otherwise I'll just dive into troubleshooting it. :) > > Thanks as always- > > - Ian > > Sent from my iPhone From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Nov 26 23:13:42 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 06:13:42 +0100 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? In-Reply-To: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> References: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151127051342.GA5219@Update.UU.SE> I can only say that they fail often. We have replaced lots in our 11/70. Luckily we have had spares. Sometimes the failure has been rather catastrofic with blown components. I think these modules run quite hot since discoloured pcb:s are common. /P On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 01:01:07PM -0800, Ian Finder wrote: > Hi folks, > > I've begun repairing my PDP 11/40 and have tracked down the first major issue to the H745 (-15v) regulator. > > Before I dig into it, I just wanted to see if there are any common known failure cases... Otherwise I'll just dive into troubleshooting it. :) > > Thanks as always- > > - Ian > > Sent from my iPhone From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 27 04:29:32 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:29:32 +0100 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? In-Reply-To: <20151127051342.GA5219@Update.UU.SE> References: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> <20151127051342.GA5219@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5658308C.1040902@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-27 06:13, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I can only say that they fail often. We have replaced lots in > our 11/70. Luckily we have had spares. > > Sometimes the failure has been rather catastrofic with blown > components. I think these modules run quite hot since > discoloured pcb:s are common. I think we more often see failures in the H744(0) modules, but we've had failures in both, yes. Hot is a good guess, I think. Johnny > > /P > > On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 01:01:07PM -0800, Ian Finder wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> I've begun repairing my PDP 11/40 and have tracked down the first major issue to the H745 (-15v) regulator. >> >> Before I dig into it, I just wanted to see if there are any common known failure cases... Otherwise I'll just dive into troubleshooting it. :) >> >> Thanks as always- >> >> - Ian >> >> Sent from my iPhone -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 04:59:06 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 23:59:06 +1300 Subject: Decwriter LA12 Correspondent Message-ID: Anyone got a user manual for the above? Online or willing to place it online? I have a couple of those, working, and struggling to figure out how to change the setup. I've got as far holding the setup key, then ctrl-8 to get it to print the current settings, but can't figure out how to change baud rates and ports etc. Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Nov 27 04:59:36 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:59:36 +0100 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? In-Reply-To: <5658308C.1040902@update.uu.se> References: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> <20151127051342.GA5219@Update.UU.SE> <5658308C.1040902@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20151127105936.GC23460@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 11:29:32AM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-11-27 06:13, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >I can only say that they fail often. We have replaced lots in > >our 11/70. Luckily we have had spares. > > > >Sometimes the failure has been rather catastrofic with blown > >components. I think these modules run quite hot since > >discoloured pcb:s are common. > > I think we more often see failures in the H744(0) modules, but we've had > failures in both, yes. My memory is fussy, I recall failures in both 744(0) and 745, but not which one is more common. You are probably correct. /P From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Nov 27 06:44:10 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 13:44:10 +0100 Subject: DEC Papertape Readers Message-ID: <20151127124410.GC39464@beast.freibergnet.de> ..a friend forwarded something that look very similar to them, looks as if DEC cloned them in some way .. https://www.facebook.com/Excite.Espana/videos/10154330747448032/ :-) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From j_hoppe at t-online.de Fri Nov 27 05:40:03 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 12:40:03 +0100 Subject: PDP11GUI 1.47 In-Reply-To: References: <565592E1.1030009@t-online.de> <5656B4DF.7020403@t-online.de> Message-ID: <56584113.4070802@t-online.de> Am 26.11.2015 um 18:19 schrieb william degnan: > >> >> I'm not giving you a hard time out of idle sadism, I'm just very >> curious to see how you implemented a USB interface to an 11/70 panel >> :-) >> >> Mike > > I appreciate this tool and look forward to trying the upgrade. Mostly I > use with 11/40 to debug hy RL02 not booting. "Pro tip": try to read/write the RL02 with the disk image driver, then look up error messages in the driver MACRO11 source code. Joerg > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 27 07:01:02 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 13:01:02 +0000 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? In-Reply-To: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> References: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > I've begun repairing my PDP 11/40 and have tracked down the first major issue to the H745 (-15v) regulator. Before you dive into the brick (sounds painful!) check that the +15V DC input is present and correct. Unlike the +5V units (H744, etc) the H745 needs both the 20V AC from the transformer and a 15V supply which comes from either the PCB on top of the transformer (in an H742 supply used with the BA11-F) or the PCB under the transformer in the supply used with the BA11-K If that's OK, then it's the usual suspects in the brick. The capacitors can dry up. There is a fuse, but it never fails for no good reason, so if it is blown you need to find out why. Power semiconductors on the heatsink bracket. Whatever you do do not disable the overcurrent trip (e.g. by desoldering the collector of the sense transistor). If you do, and the crowbar fires then you will be cleaning bits of transistor off the ceiling. Do not ask how I found that out! -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 08:00:31 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 09:00:31 -0500 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? In-Reply-To: References: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 27, 2015 8:04 AM, "tony duell" wrote: > > > > > Hi folks, > > > > I've begun repairing my PDP 11/40 and have tracked down the first major issue to the H745 (-15v) regulator. > > Before you dive into the brick (sounds painful!) check that the +15V DC input is present and correct. Unlike > the +5V units (H744, etc) the H745 needs both the 20V AC from the transformer and a 15V supply which > comes from either the PCB on top of the transformer (in an H742 supply used with the BA11-F) or the PCB > under the transformer in the supply used with the BA11-K > > If that's OK, then it's the usual suspects in the brick. The capacitors can dry up. There is a fuse, but it > never fails for no good reason, so if it is blown you need to find out why. Power semiconductors on > the heatsink bracket. > > Whatever you do do not disable the overcurrent trip (e.g. by desoldering the collector of the sense > transistor). If you do, and the crowbar fires then you will be cleaning bits of transistor off the > ceiling. Do not ask how I found that out! > > -tony There is a pdp 11 troubleshooting guide on Bitsavers that covers the h742 powersupply and regulators 744. 745, 754. Assuming that is what you have. They're all tough to work on especially the regulators but I agree with Tony that you need to lock down the main suppl first. That troubleshooting guide very useful just be prepared to completely disassemble the parts. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 09:14:11 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 16:14:11 +0100 Subject: DEC Papertape Readers In-Reply-To: <20151127124410.GC39464@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20151127124410.GC39464@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 27 November 2015 at 13:44, Holm Tiffe wrote: > ..a friend forwarded something that look very similar to them, looks as if > DEC cloned them in some way .. > > https://www.facebook.com/Excite.Espana/videos/10154330747448032/ > > > :-) Very nice! But that looks like the roll (book, whatever) equivalent of a lace card. I'm amazed it held together enough to play, and I suspect it's not going to survive more than a handful of plays at best. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 27 10:19:29 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 10:19:29 -0600 Subject: Flash (or ide) storage for HP-2000? In-Reply-To: <9e3f3.f55111.4388ab5f@aol.com> References: <9e3f3.f55111.4388ab5f@aol.com> Message-ID: <008901d1292f$655e36d0$301aa470$@classiccmp.org> Ed wrote.... ok pretty interesting but no driver for access-2000....unfortunately ! ------- You could write it..... The paper tape emulator there needs no drivers. I have one, and it works incredibly well (on HP2000 as well as every other environment). As to the ide disk emulator... there are solutions out there for HP that require HP-IB. That's of course not supported by HP2K, but that is "on my list" to enhance HP2K to support that. Could always toss in support for the ide disk board.... J From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 27 10:48:40 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 10:48:40 -0600 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? In-Reply-To: <20151127051342.GA5219@Update.UU.SE> References: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> <20151127051342.GA5219@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <56588968.7070903@pico-systems.com> On 11/26/2015 11:13 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I can only say that they fail often. We have replaced lots in > our 11/70. Luckily we have had spares. > > Sometimes the failure has been rather catastrofic with blown > components. I think these modules run quite hot since > discoloured pcb:s are common. > > My experience with an 11/45 that ran 24/7 was the AMP Mate-n-Lok connectors would get a poor contact, heat up and go into thermal runaway, melting the plastic housing and totally frying the contacts. I had to repair these at least 5 times while we had that machine. I never actually had a regulator itself go bad, it was always the contacts. Maybe we just got lucky. (This was also about 1977 - 1980, so parts have probably deteriorated a lot more since then.) Jon From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Nov 27 10:55:19 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:55:19 -0500 Subject: Flash (or ide) storage for HP-2000? Message-ID: <20548a.1aec2911.4389e4f6@aol.com> not me write it.. have not coded in years... now like my car.... I want to just turn the key and make it go. Ed# In a message dated 11/27/2015 9:19:51 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: Ed wrote.... ok pretty interesting but no driver for access-2000....unfortunately ! ------- You could write it..... The paper tape emulator there needs no drivers. I have one, and it works incredibly well (on HP2000 as well as every other environment). As to the ide disk emulator... there are solutions out there for HP that require HP-IB. That's of course not supported by HP2K, but that is "on my list" to enhance HP2K to support that. Could always toss in support for the ide disk board.... J From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 27 12:09:57 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 18:09:57 +0000 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? In-Reply-To: References: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> , Message-ID: > There is a pdp 11 troubleshooting guide on Bitsavers that covers the h742 > powersupply and regulators 744. 745, 754. Assuming that is what you have. > > They're all tough to work on especially the regulators but I agree with > Tony that you need to lock down the main suppl first. I am not sure what you mean by 'tough to work on'. If it's a physical access problem then what I did was to obtain a spare 8 pin mate-n-lock plug and socket and make up a pin-pin wired extension lead about 1m long. Then I can take the brick out of the PSU, connected it via the extension lead and be able to probe it. I normally sit it on top of the CPU box of my 11/45, you get easily enough air flow from the fans to run it for testing. If it's that the circuits are complicated, well, remember these are swtiching regulators (not linear) but are a lot more repairer-friendly than most SMPSUs in that nothing in the brick is directly connected to the mains. -tony From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Nov 27 12:34:43 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 10:34:43 -0800 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <5656FB40.306@compsys.to> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> <5656FB40.306@compsys.to> Message-ID: <438A1FD3-4E58-477D-B074-1B6099869680@nf6x.net> > On Nov 26, 2015, at 04:29, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > After that worked successfully, I became disappointed > that I had to deface the floppy media with the extra holes. The > simple solution was to use a DPDT switch and flip the detection > circuits so that the RX03 drive would signal a double-sided media > what there was a single-sided index hole and the DPDT switch was > in the alternate position. Wouldn't that approach result in the sectors being shifted with respect to the index hole vs. the case where the conventional index sensor positions are used? I would imagine that it's a moot point if the disks are being formatted, written and read on the same drive, but I can imagine interoperation issues if you later punch the second jacket window to read/write the disks on an unmodified drive. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 27 13:13:14 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 13:13:14 -0600 Subject: classiccmp work Message-ID: <000101d12947$aa95b5d0$ffc12170$@classiccmp.org> I'm doing some work today and possibly over the next few days related to ftp services on the classiccmp server. Expect some squirrelyness over today and/or through the weekend. Also, since semi-retirement is now here... there will be some work finally getting started on things related to classiccmp. That long-discussed wiki (in some form) may be at the top of the list ;) I have a pretty long laundry list of things I'd like to add, but if anyone has any features/functionality they'd like to see added to classiccmp.org please email me the request off-list. Best, J From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Nov 27 13:38:36 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 08:38:36 +1300 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat Message-ID: This self-satirizing flow diagram reflecting my experiences testing computers in my collection may (or may not) amuse some on this forum. I'm sure at least some can relate to the scenarios though... http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-11-28-computer-collectors-testing-flowchart.htm Terry (Tez) From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 27 13:55:04 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 13:55:04 -0600 Subject: classiccmp work In-Reply-To: <000101d12947$aa95b5d0$ffc12170$@classiccmp.org> References: <000101d12947$aa95b5d0$ffc12170$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001d1294d$8285ea50$8791bef0$@classiccmp.org> FTP on the classiccmp server should now be working more reliably for passive mode. You may have to use "ftp.classiccmp.org" as opposed to your own DNS name that may be hosted there. Please test and advise me off-list if you still have any issues. J From other at oryx.us Fri Nov 27 14:03:40 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 14:03:40 -0600 Subject: classiccmp work In-Reply-To: <000001d1294d$8285ea50$8791bef0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000101d12947$aa95b5d0$ffc12170$@classiccmp.org> <000001d1294d$8285ea50$8791bef0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5658B71C.2030007@oryx.us> Thank you for the link. Is "anonymous" login enabled on your FTP server? Or do we require a login before we can access the site? Thank you, Jerry On 11/27/15 01:55 PM, Jay West wrote: > FTP on the classiccmp server should now be working more reliably for passive > mode. You may have to use "ftp.classiccmp.org" as opposed to your own DNS > name that may be hosted there. > > Please test and advise me off-list if you still have any issues. > > J > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 27 14:19:26 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 14:19:26 -0600 Subject: classiccmp work In-Reply-To: <5658B71C.2030007@oryx.us> References: <000101d12947$aa95b5d0$ffc12170$@classiccmp.org> <000001d1294d$8285ea50$8791bef0$@classiccmp.org> <5658B71C.2030007@oryx.us> Message-ID: <000901d12950$eae16ea0$c0a44be0$@classiccmp.org> Yes, anonymous login is disabled.... because the sole reason for FTP is for the various authors/maintainers of classic/retro computing sites which the classiccmp server hosts. Each website owner/author uses FTP to maintain their website on the classiccmp server. That being said.... a bunch of ideas/projects have been languishing on the backburner, and some may involve FTP. Some examples.... 1) (This one is already a given) If anyone wants an FTP spot for classic/retro computing files, it's available gratis. Just email me off-list. 2) I was thinking of creating a web interface such that people could upload pictures and/or a "tinyurl" functionality, such that when they make posts to the list where they want to include a picture or long link it gets uploaded to the classiccmp server and the link is available to posters. Long story short, since the mailing list doesn't allow attachments - this would allow the same functionality. Added bonus, the material doesn't go away over time and can be maintained. 3) Specific "public" ftp repositories for all listmember use. Of course, we'd have to have people "sign up" for a classiccmp.org account to keep it from being publicly used for "anything". Just random thoughts - other thoughts/ideas that anyone may have - just email me offlist. J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Kemp Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 2:04 PM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: classiccmp work Thank you for the link. Is "anonymous" login enabled on your FTP server? Or do we require a login before we can access the site? Thank you, Jerry On 11/27/15 01:55 PM, Jay West wrote: > FTP on the classiccmp server should now be working more reliably for > passive mode. You may have to use "ftp.classiccmp.org" as opposed to > your own DNS name that may be hosted there. > > Please test and advise me off-list if you still have any issues. > > J > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 27 14:39:30 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 15:39:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: classiccmp work In-Reply-To: <000901d12950$eae16ea0$c0a44be0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000101d12947$aa95b5d0$ffc12170$@classiccmp.org> <000001d1294d$8285ea50$8791bef0$@classiccmp.org> <5658B71C.2030007@oryx.us> <000901d12950$eae16ea0$c0a44be0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201511272039.PAA21702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Yes, anonymous login is disabled.... because the sole reason for FTP > is for the various authors/maintainers of classic/retro computing > sites which the classiccmp server hosts. Hmm. I thought classiccmp.org used to make stuff available to the world via FTP. Have you dropped that, or am I hallucinating in thinking it was ever the case, or what? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Nov 27 14:43:05 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 14:43:05 -0600 Subject: classiccmp work In-Reply-To: <201511272039.PAA21702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <000101d12947$aa95b5d0$ffc12170$@classiccmp.org> <000001d1294d$8285ea50$8791bef0$@classiccmp.org> <5658B71C.2030007@oryx.us> <000901d12950$eae16ea0$c0a44be0$@classiccmp.org> <201511272039.PAA21702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <000901d12954$37e32600$a7a97200$@classiccmp.org> We do make a LOT of stuff available that is put up via ftp (privately, by myself or a few others), but it's always been available via http not ftp. It is also possible that many of the people who have their website hosted on the classiccmp server are making stuff available via ftp, and I wouldn't necessarily be aware of it. That all being said - if there's something I've accidentally dropped off during the years of upgrades and migrations, by all means please let me know :) And of course, I'm always taking requests on ideas for ftp or other services that would be beneficial to the community :) J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 2:40 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: classiccmp work > Yes, anonymous login is disabled.... because the sole reason for FTP > is for the various authors/maintainers of classic/retro computing > sites which the classiccmp server hosts. Hmm. I thought classiccmp.org used to make stuff available to the world via FTP. Have you dropped that, or am I hallucinating in thinking it was ever the case, or what? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at pski.net Fri Nov 27 14:57:11 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 15:57:11 -0500 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62A40A11-00B3-4AA8-8029-F92BF2657409@pski.net> On Nov 27, 2015, at 2:38 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > > This self-satirizing flow diagram reflecting my experiences testing > computers in my collection may (or may not) amuse some on this forum. I'm > sure at least some can relate to the scenarios though... > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-11-28-computer-collectors-testing-flowchart.htm > > Terry (Tez) I?m pretty sure I?ve taken all of these paths at least once! From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 15:14:33 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 16:14:33 -0500 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? In-Reply-To: References: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:09 PM, tony duell wrote: > > There is a pdp 11 troubleshooting guide on Bitsavers that covers the h742 > > powersupply and regulators 744. 745, 754. Assuming that is what you > have. > > > > They're all tough to work on especially the regulators but I agree with > > Tony that you need to lock down the main suppl first. > > I am not sure what you mean by 'tough to work on'. If it's a physical > access > problem then what I did was to obtain a spare 8 pin mate-n-lock plug and > socket and make up a pin-pin wired extension lead about 1m long. Then I > can take the brick out of the PSU, connected it via the extension lead and > be > able to probe it. I normally sit it on top of the CPU box of my 11/45, you > get > easily enough air flow from the fans to run it for testing. > > If it's that the circuits are complicated, well, remember these are > swtiching > regulators (not linear) but are a lot more repairer-friendly than most > SMPSUs > in that nothing in the brick is directly connected to the mains. > > -tony > Tough-sh to physically work on/test. These are not made for field service IMHO, just swap out part. -- Bill From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 27 15:26:52 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 22:26:52 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <438A1FD3-4E58-477D-B074-1B6099869680@nf6x.net> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> <5656FB40.306@compsys.to> <438A1FD3-4E58-477D-B074-1B6099869680@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5658CA9C.5000106@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-27 19:34, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> On Nov 26, 2015, at 04:29, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> After that worked successfully, I became disappointed >> that I had to deface the floppy media with the extra holes. The >> simple solution was to use a DPDT switch and flip the detection >> circuits so that the RX03 drive would signal a double-sided media >> what there was a single-sided index hole and the DPDT switch was >> in the alternate position. > > Wouldn't that approach result in the sectors being shifted with respect to the index hole vs. the case where the conventional index sensor positions are used? I would imagine that it's a moot point if the disks are being formatted, written and read on the same drive, but I can imagine interoperation issues if you later punch the second jacket window to read/write the disks on an unmodified drive. If the drive were to use the same offset from the index hole to data, and so on, yes. But why would a drive keep those constants the same if the hole moved? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Fri Nov 27 13:42:33 2015 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 20:42:33 +0100 Subject: Vaxstation 4000/60 DECwindows Message-ID: <5658B229.90202@familie-rauhut.eu> Hello list - I have a Vaxstation 4000/60 running VMS 7.3. DW-MOTIF is installed, TAILOR=on, License OK... @SYS$TEST:DECW$IVP say: Copyright Compaq Computer Corporation 1988, 2000. DECwindows Motif for OpenVMS Installation Verification Procedure (IVP) This IVP is intended to test some of the functionality of DECwindows Motif for OpenVMS and to provide a quick method of verifying the installation. This machine is not a workstation. Please provide the nodename of a workstation on which to display the IVP tests. You must be sure that this account and node have security access to the display node, or the IVP will fail. To skip the display-oriented tests, press Ctrl/Z at the following prompt. Why IVP detect the Vaxstation as not a workstation? Serial Console is off... Any ideas? From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 15:44:30 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 13:44:30 -0800 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? In-Reply-To: References: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yep, I've already checked out the rest of the voltages thru the machine. The AC inputs are correct, +15 is good, +5 is a little high at 5.5v but workable and I'll tweak it later, -5 is good, etc. Just the darn 745 module. Fuse and connector are okay as well, no obvious signs of catastrophic failure. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 27, 2015, at 05:01, tony duell wrote: >> >> Hi folks, >> >> I've begun repairing my PDP 11/40 and have tracked down the first major issue to the H745 (-15v) regulator. > > Before you dive into the brick (sounds painful!) check that the +15V DC input is present and correct. Unlike > the +5V units (H744, etc) the H745 needs both the 20V AC from the transformer and a 15V supply which > comes from either the PCB on top of the transformer (in an H742 supply used with the BA11-F) or the PCB > under the transformer in the supply used with the BA11-K > > If that's OK, then it's the usual suspects in the brick. The capacitors can dry up. There is a fuse, but it > never fails for no good reason, so if it is blown you need to find out why. Power semiconductors on > the heatsink bracket. > > Whatever you do do not disable the overcurrent trip (e.g. by desoldering the collector of the sense > transistor). If you do, and the crowbar fires then you will be cleaning bits of transistor off the > ceiling. Do not ask how I found that out! > > -tony From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Nov 27 16:03:58 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 22:03:58 +0000 (WET) Subject: Vaxstation 4000/60 DECwindows In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 27 Nov 2015 20:42:33 +0100" <5658B229.90202@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: <01PTMI6LB01G00AT8Q@beyondthepale.ie> Marco Rauhut wrote: > > Hello list - > > I have a Vaxstation 4000/60 running VMS 7.3. > DW-MOTIF is installed, TAILOR=on, License OK... > > @SYS$TEST:DECW$IVP say: > > Copyright Compaq Computer Corporation 1988, 2000. > > DECwindows Motif for OpenVMS Installation Verification Procedure > (IVP) > > This IVP is intended to test some of the functionality of > DECwindows Motif > for OpenVMS and to provide a quick method of verifying the > installation. > > This machine is not a workstation. Please provide the nodename of a > workstation on which to display the IVP tests. You must be sure > that this > account and node have security access to the display node, or the > IVP will > fail. > > To skip the display-oriented tests, press Ctrl/Z at the following > prompt. > > Why IVP detect the Vaxstation as not a workstation? > Serial Console is off... > > Any ideas? > How are you logging in to the VAXstation? If you log in using the workstation monitor/keyboard/mouse, the IVP should detect that you are on a workstation. Try: $ SHOW DISPLAY to check. If you log in via DECnet (SET HOST), via a serial line or via some TCP/IP packages (telnet/rlogin/rsh/ssh), you may need to do something like: $ SET DISPLAY /TRANSPORT=LOCAL /CREATE before you run the IVP so it knows where to display stuff. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 27 16:21:39 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 17:21:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? Message-ID: <20151127222139.C071118C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jerome H. Fine > both DEC and DSD needed a bounce buffer managed by software Love that term, "bounce buffer" (I wrote a whole package to support them in a packet switch I did) - I'm officially adopting it, right now! :-) Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 27 16:56:38 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 22:56:38 -0000 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: <62A40A11-00B3-4AA8-8029-F92BF2657409@pski.net> References: <62A40A11-00B3-4AA8-8029-F92BF2657409@pski.net> Message-ID: <06e801d12966$df8a4980$9e9edc80$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Cetinski > Sent: 27 November 2015 20:57 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat > > On Nov 27, 2015, at 2:38 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > > > > This self-satirizing flow diagram reflecting my experiences testing > > computers in my collection may (or may not) amuse some on this forum. > > I'm sure at least some can relate to the scenarios though... > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-11-28-computer-collector > > s-testing-flowchart.htm > > > > Terry (Tez) > > I?m pretty sure I?ve taken all of these paths at least once!= I see a big problem with this flowchart, the path on the far right does not exist, please delete it and then the flowchart will be believable. Regards Rob From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Nov 27 17:04:07 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 23:04:07 +0000 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: <06e801d12966$df8a4980$9e9edc80$@ntlworld.com> References: <62A40A11-00B3-4AA8-8029-F92BF2657409@pski.net> <06e801d12966$df8a4980$9e9edc80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: That's a great flow diagram Tez - however, I do think there are not nearly enough arrows pointing upwards ? On 27 November 2015 at 22:56, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > > Cetinski > > Sent: 27 November 2015 20:57 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat > > > > On Nov 27, 2015, at 2:38 PM, Terry Stewart > wrote: > > > > > > This self-satirizing flow diagram reflecting my experiences testing > > > computers in my collection may (or may not) amuse some on this forum. > > > I'm sure at least some can relate to the scenarios though... > > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-11-28-computer-collector > > > s-testing-flowchart.htm > > > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > > I?m pretty sure I?ve taken all of these paths at least once!= > > > I see a big problem with this flowchart, the path on the far right does > not exist, please delete it and then the flowchart will be believable. > > Regards > > Rob > > From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Nov 27 17:04:41 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 00:04:41 +0100 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <20151127222139.C071118C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151127222139.C071118C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5658E189.4050402@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-27 23:21, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jerome H. Fine > > > both DEC and DSD needed a bounce buffer managed by software > > Love that term, "bounce buffer" (I wrote a whole package to support them in a > packet switch I did) - I'm officially adopting it, right now! :-) The term "bounce buffer" has been around for many many year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_buffering#Double_DMA Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From simski at dds.nl Sat Nov 28 02:34:20 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 09:34:20 +0100 Subject: DEC Papertape Readers In-Reply-To: References: <20151127124410.GC39464@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <5659670C.9060907@dds.nl> Oh a paper organ. they are quite common in The Netherlands, although the tunes they play are mostly horrible. the books as they call them are suited to a specific machine and sometimes wider or smaller. the predate computers at least 80 years. On 27-11-15 16:14, Liam Proven wrote: > On 27 November 2015 at 13:44, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> ..a friend forwarded something that look very similar to them, looks as if >> DEC cloned them in some way .. >> >> https://www.facebook.com/Excite.Espana/videos/10154330747448032/ >> >> >> :-) > > > Very nice! > > But that looks like the roll (book, whatever) equivalent of a lace > card. I'm amazed it held together enough to play, and I suspect it's > not going to survive more than a handful of plays at best. > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Nov 28 04:58:14 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:58:14 +0000 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 27/11/2015 19:38, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > This self-satirizing flow diagram reflecting my experiences testing > computers in my collection may (or may not) amuse some on this forum. I'm > sure at least some can relate to the scenarios though... > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-11-28-computer-collectors-testin > g-flowchart.htm That's what I've been doing for the last 2 months, all centred around fixing a PET4032. What started out as a 'well this hasn't worked since I got it in 2000, let's have a go' has turned into my living room and kitchen covered in electronic bits as I find things I'd forgotten about while looking for widget X or doofer Y and sources for missing/broken component Z. Add one tick for finding a Mac Plus with leaky caps and a soon-to-explode mains filter cap. Then I discovered I could use a ZX Spectrum board as a 4116 RAM tester with suitable mods for dual-boot ROMs etc so I've spent 2 weeks finding every Spectrum I have and fixing/cleaning up the ones that have bit-rotted away while discovering an awful lot I didn't know about these comparatively simple playthings. Today it's all going to come together and hopefully the outcome will be a fully working PET4032 and an extra diagnostic tool to add to the collection. Of course we all know something ELSE unexpected will happen. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 28 05:40:40 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 11:40:40 +0000 Subject: DEC H745 regulator common failure modes? In-Reply-To: References: <63523F1B-558A-4185-8FFD-92D9CF38F138@gmail.com> , Message-ID: [H745 regulator] > Tough-sh to physically work on/test. These are not made for field service > IMHO, just swap out part. If you make up the extension lead so you can run it outside the PSU chassis then it is very easy to work on. The PCB is exposed on one side of the brick and as I said it's all isolated from the mains. -tony From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Sat Nov 28 13:30:50 2015 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 20:30:50 +0100 Subject: Vaxstation 4000/60 DECwindows In-Reply-To: <01PTMI6LB01G00AT8Q@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PTMI6LB01G00AT8Q@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <565A00EA.2000308@familie-rauhut.eu> That solved my IVP not a workstation problem... Thanks! But now while testing ivp told me can`t open Display. If i start the Vaxstation in the boot system i can use the hole Monitor. But when VMS started there only 25 usable lines left on Monitor. What i have done is that i have installed VMS with the alternate Console mode via RS232. After that i connect a VGA monitor with a sync seperation adapter and a keyboard and mouse. Remember VMS the install Environment? Marco Am 27.11.2015 um 23:03 schrieb Peter Coghlan: > Marco Rauhut wrote: >> >> Hello list - >> >> I have a Vaxstation 4000/60 running VMS 7.3. >> DW-MOTIF is installed, TAILOR=on, License OK... >> >> @SYS$TEST:DECW$IVP say: >> >> Copyright Compaq Computer Corporation 1988, 2000. >> >> DECwindows Motif for OpenVMS Installation Verification >> Procedure (IVP) >> >> This IVP is intended to test some of the functionality of >> DECwindows Motif >> for OpenVMS and to provide a quick method of verifying the >> installation. >> >> This machine is not a workstation. Please provide the nodename >> of a >> workstation on which to display the IVP tests. You must be sure >> that this >> account and node have security access to the display node, or >> the IVP will >> fail. >> >> To skip the display-oriented tests, press Ctrl/Z at the >> following prompt. >> >> Why IVP detect the Vaxstation as not a workstation? >> Serial Console is off... >> >> Any ideas? >> > > How are you logging in to the VAXstation? > > If you log in using the workstation monitor/keyboard/mouse, the IVP > should > detect that you are on a workstation. Try: > > $ SHOW DISPLAY > > to check. > > If you log in via DECnet (SET HOST), via a serial line or via some TCP/IP > packages (telnet/rlogin/rsh/ssh), you may need to do something like: > > $ SET DISPLAY /TRANSPORT=LOCAL /CREATE > > before you run the IVP so it knows where to display stuff. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Nov 28 14:05:20 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 09:05:20 +1300 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I see a big problem with this flowchart, the path on the far right does not exist, please delete it and then the flowchart will be believable. .. >I do think there are not nearly enough arrows pointing upwards LOL Rob, Mark. >Today it's all going to come together and hopefully the outcome will be a >fully working PET4032 and an extra diagnostic tool to add to the collection. >Of course we all know something ELSE unexpected will happen. Yes, I love the case design of the PET. It looks just so retro and '80s futuristic if you get my meaning... I designed that tounge-in-cheek flowchart as a kind of catharsis having just spent the last three weeks, firstly fixing my Apple II+ which was a non-starter on checking (a faulty F8 ROM in that case) then followed by the next unit I tested, whose 74LS500 in the video circuit failed after about 5 mins. I'm almost afraid to turn on any more...but then...Schrodinger's cat and all that. I need to know! Terry (Tez) From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Nov 28 13:55:33 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 19:55:33 +0000 (WET) Subject: Vaxstation 4000/60 DECwindows In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 28 Nov 2015 20:30:50 +0100" <565A00EA.2000308@familie-rauhut.eu> References: <01PTMI6LB01G00AT8Q@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PTNTC7LXR800AT8Q@beyondthepale.ie> Marco Rauhut wrote: > > That solved my IVP not a workstation problem... Thanks! > > But now while testing ivp told me can`t open Display. > > If i start the Vaxstation in the boot system i can use the hole Monitor. > But when VMS started there only 25 usable lines left on Monitor. > > What i have done is that i have installed VMS with the alternate Console > mode via RS232. > After that i connect a VGA monitor with a sync seperation adapter and a > keyboard and mouse. > > Remember VMS the install Environment? > Can you log in using the workstation monitor/keyboard/mouse? If you manage to log in as SYSTEM using the workstation monitor/keyboard/mouse, there should be a menu item or an icon you can click on to create a decterm. It should be possible to issue @SYS$TEST:DECW$IVP in the decterm window and it should (hopefully) work. Maybe you can not log in using the workstation monitor/keyboard/mouse? Is a mouse pointer and a graphic prompting you for your username and password appearing on the monitor? If not, is the monitor displaying anything? Maybe the monitor can not display the video signal from your Vaxstation 4000? If the monitor seems to be working ok but there is no login box, maybe decwindows has not started properly? It may help to look for errors in SYS$MANAGER:DECW$SERVER_0_ERROR.LOG - however there is a lot of stuff in that file and it is hard to tell which messages are are normal and which are errors. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > Marco > > > Am 27.11.2015 um 23:03 schrieb Peter Coghlan: > > Marco Rauhut wrote: > >> > >> Hello list - > >> > >> I have a Vaxstation 4000/60 running VMS 7.3. > >> DW-MOTIF is installed, TAILOR=on, License OK... > >> > >> @SYS$TEST:DECW$IVP say: > >> > >> Copyright Compaq Computer Corporation 1988, 2000. > >> > >> DECwindows Motif for OpenVMS Installation Verification > >> Procedure (IVP) > >> > >> This IVP is intended to test some of the functionality of > >> DECwindows Motif > >> for OpenVMS and to provide a quick method of verifying the > >> installation. > >> > >> This machine is not a workstation. Please provide the nodename > >> of a > >> workstation on which to display the IVP tests. You must be sure > >> that this > >> account and node have security access to the display node, or > >> the IVP will > >> fail. > >> > >> To skip the display-oriented tests, press Ctrl/Z at the > >> following prompt. > >> > >> Why IVP detect the Vaxstation as not a workstation? > >> Serial Console is off... > >> > >> Any ideas? > >> > > > > How are you logging in to the VAXstation? > > > > If you log in using the workstation monitor/keyboard/mouse, the IVP > > should > > detect that you are on a workstation. Try: > > > > $ SHOW DISPLAY > > > > to check. > > > > If you log in via DECnet (SET HOST), via a serial line or via some TCP/IP > > packages (telnet/rlogin/rsh/ssh), you may need to do something like: > > > > $ SET DISPLAY /TRANSPORT=LOCAL /CREATE > > > > before you run the IVP so it knows where to display stuff. > > > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 28 15:09:37 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 21:09:37 -0000 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d12a21$16981cd0$43c85670$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Terry > Stewart > Sent: 28 November 2015 20:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat > > >I see a big problem with this flowchart, the path on the far right does > not exist, please delete it and then the flowchart will be believable. > .. > >I do think there are not nearly enough arrows pointing upwards > > LOL Rob, Mark. I agree with Mark, needs more upwards arrows, more cycles (some without an exit at the bottom). :-) > > >Today it's all going to come together and hopefully the outcome will be > >a fully working PET4032 and an extra diagnostic tool to add to the > collection. > >Of course we all know something ELSE unexpected will happen. > > Yes, I love the case design of the PET. It looks just so retro and '80s futuristic if > you get my meaning... > > I designed that tounge-in-cheek flowchart as a kind of catharsis having just > spent the last three weeks, firstly fixing my Apple II+ which was a non-starter > on checking (a faulty F8 ROM in that case) then followed by the next unit I > tested, whose 74LS500 in the video circuit failed after about 5 mins. I'm almost > afraid to turn on any more...but then...Schrodinger's cat > and all that. I need to know! > > Terry (Tez) I had my own episode last week when I turned on my VAX 4000-500 after a few months of not running it. It ran for a few minutes and then powered off. Now it won't power on for more than a few seconds before cutting out. This is the second PSU to do this to me (the first actually failed outright) and I am wondering if the fault is with something in the machine itself rather than the PSU. Although, now, even with different combinations of boards removed (so there is at least some load), the PSU won't stay on for long, so I don't think it can be one of the boards, but perhaps something in the machine has caused a fault which has now damaged the PSU. I have another spare PSU but I am not going to risk it yet until I have had time to investigate. Regards Rob From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 16:21:34 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 14:21:34 -0800 Subject: ISO: DEC M8320 (KK8E, PDP-8/e/f/m Bus Loads) Message-ID: <565A28EE.90003@gmail.com> Hi all -- I inherited a PDP-8/m awhile back. Actually, I inherited a mostly empty chassis, which I've been slowly populating. I now have everything I need for a working CPU except for an M8320. Anyone have one going spare for something less than eBay prices (or for trade)? While I'm wishing, I could also use a pair of the "top block" connectors for the CPU if anyone has any lying around... Thanks, Josh From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Nov 28 16:24:49 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 22:24:49 +0000 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: <000001d12a21$16981cd0$43c85670$@ntlworld.com> References: <000001d12a21$16981cd0$43c85670$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <565A29B1.4050005@btinternet.com> Hi I had the exact same fault on my VAX. I took one look at the PSU and ordered up another one pronto. Trouble shoot in that small space no thank you. It works just fine. One day a VAX PSU guru will tell us how to fix it. Rod Smallwood On 28/11/15 21:09, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Terry >> Stewart >> Sent: 28 November 2015 20:05 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat >> >>> I see a big problem with this flowchart, the path on the far right does >> not exist, please delete it and then the flowchart will be believable. >> .. >>> I do think there are not nearly enough arrows pointing upwards >> LOL Rob, Mark. > I agree with Mark, needs more upwards arrows, more cycles (some without an exit at the bottom). :-) > > >>> Today it's all going to come together and hopefully the outcome will be >>> a fully working PET4032 and an extra diagnostic tool to add to the >> collection. >>> Of course we all know something ELSE unexpected will happen. >> Yes, I love the case design of the PET. It looks just so retro and '80s futuristic if >> you get my meaning... >> >> I designed that tounge-in-cheek flowchart as a kind of catharsis having just >> spent the last three weeks, firstly fixing my Apple II+ which was a non-starter >> on checking (a faulty F8 ROM in that case) then followed by the next unit I >> tested, whose 74LS500 in the video circuit failed after about 5 mins. I'm almost >> afraid to turn on any more...but then...Schrodinger's cat >> and all that. I need to know! >> >> Terry (Tez) > I had my own episode last week when I turned on my VAX 4000-500 after a few months of not running it. It ran for a few minutes and then powered off. Now it won't power on for more than a few seconds before cutting out. This is the second PSU to do this to me (the first actually failed outright) and I am wondering if the fault is with something in the machine itself rather than the PSU. Although, now, even with different combinations of boards removed (so there is at least some load), the PSU won't stay on for long, so I don't think it can be one of the boards, but perhaps something in the machine has caused a fault which has now damaged the PSU. I have another spare PSU but I am not going to risk it yet until I have had time to investigate. > > Regards > > Rob > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 28 17:03:26 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 18:03:26 -0500 Subject: Future technicians will know how to fix it - Re: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: <565A29B1.4050005@btinternet.com> References: <000001d12a21$16981cd0$43c85670$@ntlworld.com> <565A29B1.4050005@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <565A32BE.80602@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-11-28 5:24 PM, rod wrote: > Hi > I had the exact same fault on my VAX. > I took one look at the PSU and ordered up another one pronto. > Trouble shoot in that small space no thank you. > It works just fine. One day a VAX PSU guru will tell us how to fix it. Indeed, one day we will have the technology! Cryofreeze it until then. --T > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > On 28/11/15 21:09, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Terry >>> Stewart >>> Sent: 28 November 2015 20:05 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat >>> >>>> I see a big problem with this flowchart, the path on the far right does >>> not exist, please delete it and then the flowchart will be believable. >>> .. >>>> I do think there are not nearly enough arrows pointing upwards >>> LOL Rob, Mark. >> I agree with Mark, needs more upwards arrows, more cycles (some >> without an exit at the bottom). :-) >> >> >>>> Today it's all going to come together and hopefully the outcome will be >>>> a fully working PET4032 and an extra diagnostic tool to add to the >>> collection. >>>> Of course we all know something ELSE unexpected will happen. >>> Yes, I love the case design of the PET. It looks just so retro and >>> '80s futuristic if >>> you get my meaning... >>> >>> I designed that tounge-in-cheek flowchart as a kind of catharsis >>> having just >>> spent the last three weeks, firstly fixing my Apple II+ which was a >>> non-starter >>> on checking (a faulty F8 ROM in that case) then followed by the next >>> unit I >>> tested, whose 74LS500 in the video circuit failed after about 5 >>> mins. I'm almost >>> afraid to turn on any more...but then...Schrodinger's cat >>> and all that. I need to know! >>> >>> Terry (Tez) >> I had my own episode last week when I turned on my VAX 4000-500 after >> a few months of not running it. It ran for a few minutes and then >> powered off. Now it won't power on for more than a few seconds before >> cutting out. This is the second PSU to do this to me (the first >> actually failed outright) and I am wondering if the fault is with >> something in the machine itself rather than the PSU. Although, now, >> even with different combinations of boards removed (so there is at >> least some load), the PSU won't stay on for long, so I don't think it >> can be one of the boards, but perhaps something in the machine has >> caused a fault which has now damaged the PSU. I have another spare PSU >> but I am not going to risk it yet until I have had time to investigate. >> >> Regards >> >> Rob >> > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 28 17:13:42 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 23:13:42 -0000 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: <565A29B1.4050005@btinternet.com> References: <000001d12a21$16981cd0$43c85670$@ntlworld.com> <565A29B1.4050005@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <000a01d12a32$6c943a40$45bcaec0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of rod > Sent: 28 November 2015 22:25 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat > > Hi > I had the exact same fault on my VAX. > I took one look at the PSU and ordered up another one pronto. > Trouble shoot in that small space no thank you. > It works just fine. One day a VAX PSU guru will tell us how to fix it. > > Rod Smallwood > It *is* a fiendishly complex looking thing. The failure mode this time is slightly different to last time though, I intend to see what happens if I give it a completely dummy load, to see if it really is anything to do with the machine or not, there could be a short somewhere that is causing the PSU to shutdown. Regards Rob From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Nov 28 17:14:13 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 18:14:13 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> >Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jerome H. Fine > > > both DEC and DSD needed a bounce buffer managed by software > >Love that term, "bounce buffer" (I wrote a whole package to support them in a >packet switch I did) - I'm officially adopting it, right now! :-) > > Noel > Hey - anything that anyone writes is automatically copyrighted. So first you need permission to use that! I will try and figure out who the person was that first used that phrase so we can both use it. I did not mention that the concept worked quite well with the DEC RX02 and the DSD RX03 when a PDP-11/73 was used. But when version 1.0 of that device driver was used with a PDP-11/23, the transfer rate was painfully slow because the interleave gap was not long enough relative to the time needed to bounce the buffer. Since the DMA silo had already been emptied into the bounce buffer, the solution was to immediately initiate the next READ into the silo and then bounce the buffer (for a READ request, of course). That allowed the READ of the next sector on the floppy media to be performed by the controller while the CPU was performing a transfer out of the bounce buffer into the user buffer one word at a time. I don't need to test the timing on any slower CPU since, as far as I know, none support an MMU which would be required to use a Mapped RT-11 monitor. I may have the exact details and terminology incorrect - it was about 20 years ago. Jerome Fine From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 28 17:41:58 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 18:41:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Love that term, "bounce buffer" (I wrote a whole package to support >> them in a packet switch I did) - I'm officially adopting it, right >> now! :-) > Hey - anything that anyone writes is automatically copyrighted. I realize you...may have been less than entirely serious. But what you wrote could easily be taken seriously, especially by someone only partially inside our culture. So I'm going to be a minor killjoy here. Yes, anything written now is automatically copyrighted in most jursidctions. But (a) the term "bounce buffer" is small enough and obvious enough it probably cannot be copyrighted on its own (and is not infringing when copied in isolation), (b) was quite possibly published without copyright claim before automatic copyright and is thus in the public domain now, and (c) is of uncertain authorship anyway. So... > So first you need permission to use that! ...you actually don't. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Nov 28 20:19:11 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 21:19:11 -0500 Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> >Mouse wrote: >>>Love that term, "bounce buffer" (I wrote a whole package to support >>>them in a packet switch I did) - I'm officially adopting it, right >>>now! :-) >>> >>Hey - anything that anyone writes is automatically copyrighted. >> >I realize you...may have been less than entirely serious. But what you >wrote could easily be taken seriously, especially by someone only >partially inside our culture. So I'm going to be a minor killjoy here. > >Yes, anything written now is automatically copyrighted in most >jursidctions. But (a) the term "bounce buffer" is small enough and >obvious enough it probably cannot be copyrighted on its own (and is not >infringing when copied in isolation), (b) was quite possibly published >without copyright claim before automatic copyright and is thus in the >public domain now, and (c) is of uncertain authorship anyway. So... > >>So first you need permission to use that! >> >...you actually don't. > Thank you for clarifying that aspect. I just considered it so ridiculous that anyone would take the joke seriously that I did not even consider the alternative. For the case of the RX02 DYX.SYS device driver, the use of "bounce buffer" was the most descriptive phrase that I have ever seen. During a READ request, the following operations take place: (a) Set n = 0 (a) A request is issued to fill the hardware silo from the floppy media with sector a+n (b) The hardware silo is transferred via DMA to the bounce buffer (c) Set n = n+1 (d) The next request is made to fill the hardware silo again with sector a+n (e) The bounce buffer is copied to the user's buffer one word at a time Repeat (b), (c), (d) and (e) until finished Normally, during the interleave time, the device driver only needs to transfer the silo to the user's buffer. When a bounce buffer is required, the device driver has the time while the hardware silo is being filled to perform the copy from the bounce buffer to the user's buffer. So the transfer from the floppy media is actually bounced off the first data bounce buffer (in a location in physical memory which is supported by the hardware) to the final location in physical memory (where the user's buffer is located). COOOOOOL!! Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Nov 28 20:32:10 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 21:32:10 -0500 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <5658CA9C.5000106@update.uu.se> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> <5656FB40.306@compsys.to> <438A1FD3-4E58-477D-B074-1B6099869680@nf6x.net> <5658CA9C.5000106@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <565A63AA.2090400@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >On 2015-11-27 19:34, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >>> >On Nov 26, 2015, at 04:29, Jerome H. Fine >>> wrote: >>> >>> After that worked successfully, I became disappointed >>> that I had to deface the floppy media with the extra holes. The >>> simple solution was to use a DPDT switch and flip the detection >>> circuits so that the RX03 drive would signal a double-sided media >>> what there was a single-sided index hole and the DPDT switch was >>> in the alternate position. >> >> Wouldn't that approach result in the sectors being shifted with >> respect to the index hole vs. the case where the conventional index >> sensor positions are used? I would imagine that it's a moot point if >> the disks are being formatted, written and read on the same drive, >> but I can imagine interoperation issues if you later punch the second >> jacket window to read/write the disks on an unmodified drive. > > If the drive were to use the same offset from the index hole to data, > and so on, yes. > But why would a drive keep those constants the same if the hole moved? I was also concerned about that afterwards. BUT, without realizing that it might be a problem, I just tested out the concept by adding the double-sided index holes (one hole on each side of the cardboard holding the actual media in the double-sided hole position). I then attempted to read and write the first side of the floppy media which had been LLF, read and written initially using the single-sided index holes. It all worked. I then attempted to read and write the first side of the floppy media which had been LLF, read and written initially using the double-sided index holes. Again, it all worked. So I don't know exactly how the hardware timing worked when the index hole was shifted, but in the case of the DSD 880/30, it did not cause a problem. The media could be LLF using either index hole and then read and written using the other index hole. Of course, once I installed the DPDT switch, there never needed to be two pairs of index holes. That might have been the answer in some cases. The net result was that I never had a problem. Jerome Fine From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 28 20:34:46 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 18:34:46 -0800 Subject: HAL DS-3100 ASR Message-ID: <00eb01d12a4e$83b26fa0$8b174ee0$@yahoo.ca> Just posting here in case anyone not on other forums I'm on sees this and knows something about these. I picked up a HAL DS-3100 ASR terminal. My understanding is these are RTTY devices intended for teletype/radio use. It is ASCII compatible and in fact I can select ASCII and baud rates from a menu. It has a 25 pin male 'MODEM' port on the back. I can't find it now but somewhere I read it complied with an RS-232 standard. I tried hooking it up to my PC with a null modem cable, but couldn't get either to produce anything on their screens. Anyway, just a shot in the dark in case any of you remember these things. I'm not really into HAM stuff, but it's a cool little terminal and I was hoping it could be used/adapted to other tasks. Brad From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 20:39:45 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 21:39:45 -0500 Subject: HAL DS-3100 ASR In-Reply-To: <00eb01d12a4e$83b26fa0$8b174ee0$@yahoo.ca> References: <00eb01d12a4e$83b26fa0$8b174ee0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 28, 2015 9:34 PM, "Brad" wrote: > > Just posting here in case anyone not on other forums I'm on sees this and > knows something about these. > > > > I picked up a HAL DS-3100 ASR terminal. My understanding is these are RTTY > devices intended for teletype/radio use. It is ASCII compatible and in fact > I can select ASCII and baud rates from a menu. It has a 25 pin male 'MODEM' > port on the back. I can't find it now but somewhere I read it complied with > an RS-232 standard. I tried hooking it up to my PC with a null modem cable, > but couldn't get either to produce anything on their screens. > > > > Anyway, just a shot in the dark in case any of you remember these things. > I'm not really into HAM stuff, but it's a cool little terminal and I was > hoping it could be used/adapted to other tasks. > > > > Brad > > > > > You have rules out that it is not a current loop terminal? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 28 20:57:29 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 18:57:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <565A63AA.2090400@compsys.to> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> <5656FB40.306@compsys.to> <438A1FD3-4E58-477D-B074-1B6099869680@nf6x.net> <5658CA9C.5000106@update.uu.se> <565A63AA.2090400@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Nov 2015, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > it did not cause a problem. The media could be LLF using either > index hole and then read and written using the other index hole. changing the rotational position of index will not cause a problem with WD style controllers - they will read along the track until they find the sector that they are looking for. HOWEVER, on NEC 765 type of controllers, the controller is blind momentarily after the index pulse. If you have a sector starting "too soon" after the index pulse, the controller won't be able to read it, and if a sector straddles the index pulse, you may get a read error. Disabling the index pulse (which is needed for LLF) during read and write will get around that problem. If other errors occur, such as "requested sector header not found", they may be misinterpreted by the drive - it may notice lack of index, and misreport "time-out" On some 5.25" drives (some Teac models, for example), the drive uses the index pulse as part of its determination of "being ready", so on those drives, any blocking of the index pulse should be done between the drive and the controller, not by blocking the sensor. So, . . . WD style: no problem with index pulse timing relative to data NEC765 style: index pulse is necessary during LLF, but may need to be blocked during read/write, although a few of the newest drives may not be happy without index. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 28 21:39:30 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 19:39:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> <5656FB40.306@compsys.to> <438A1FD3-4E58-477D-B074-1B6099869680@nf6x.net> <5658CA9C.5000106@update.uu.se> <565A63AA.2090400@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Nov 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: > If other errors occur, such as "requested sector header not found", they may > be misinterpreted by the drive that's "misinterpreted by CONTROLLER" although some of the fancier newer drives can also have a problem > So, . . . > WD style: no problem with index pulse timing relative to data > NEC765 style: index pulse is necessary during LLF, but may need to be blocked > during read/write, although a few of the newest drives may not be happy > without index. From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 28 21:39:29 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 19:39:29 -0800 Subject: HAL DS-3100 ASR In-Reply-To: References: <00eb01d12a4e$83b26fa0$8b174ee0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <00f501d12a57$8dd03950$a970abf0$@yahoo.ca> I'm not sure about that.. I've been trying to find any documentation I can online about it to understand more about how it works. I got it for $40 in non-working condition -- turned out it does work. But detailed info seems to be sparse. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 6:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HAL DS-3100 ASR On Nov 28, 2015 9:34 PM, "Brad" wrote: > > Just posting here in case anyone not on other forums I'm on sees this > and knows something about these. > > > > I picked up a HAL DS-3100 ASR terminal. My understanding is these are RTTY > devices intended for teletype/radio use. It is ASCII compatible and > in fact > I can select ASCII and baud rates from a menu. It has a 25 pin male 'MODEM' > port on the back. I can't find it now but somewhere I read it > complied with > an RS-232 standard. I tried hooking it up to my PC with a null modem cable, > but couldn't get either to produce anything on their screens. > > > > Anyway, just a shot in the dark in case any of you remember these things. > I'm not really into HAM stuff, but it's a cool little terminal and I > was hoping it could be used/adapted to other tasks. > > > > Brad > > > > > You have rules out that it is not a current loop terminal? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 28 23:23:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 21:23:14 -0800 Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> <5656FB40.306@compsys.to> <438A1FD3-4E58-477D-B074-1B6099869680@nf6x.net> <5658CA9C.5000106@update.uu.se> <565A63AA.2090400@compsys.to> Message-ID: <565A8BC2.5050406@sydex.com> On 11/28/2015 06:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > WD style: no problem with index pulse timing relative to data NEC765 > style: index pulse is necessary during LLF, but may need to be > blocked during read/write, although a few of the newest drives may > not be happy without index. 765/8272 are particularly bad in this respect (they're blind for a full millisecond or so) in contrast with 765A/8272A, which chopped the blind spot by half. In the 8272 days, I added a one-shot to delay the blind spot by a varying amount, which solved the problem neatly, while still allowing the index to pass through. The index is also needed for WD17/27 family controllers also for LLF. Ya gotta start (and end) somewhere. If you simply block index with the 765 type FDC, you'll never get a "sector not found" error--if you have a deadman timer, it'll expire. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 18:47:54 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 19:47:54 -0500 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted Message-ID: Anyone have a source to purchase the tape to repair a papertape, or a kit such as what they have here: http://physicsmuseum.uq.edu.au/paper-tape-repair-tool Thanks -- Bill From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 28 20:22:40 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 18:22:40 -0800 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <565A6170.6080304@sbcglobal.net> On 11/28/2015 4:47 PM, william degnan wrote: > Anyone have a source to purchase the tape to repair a papertape, or a kit > such as what they have here: > > http://physicsmuseum.uq.edu.au/paper-tape-repair-tool > > Thanks > You could try westnc.com, they used to sell splicing kits. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Nov 28 21:19:23 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 19:19:23 -0800 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 28, 2015, at 16:47, william degnan wrote: > > Anyone have a source to purchase the tape to repair a papertape, or a kit > such as what they have here: > > http://physicsmuseum.uq.edu.au/paper-tape-repair-tool I found mine on eBay, probably around a year ago. I searched for a long time before I found it. Another hen's tooth that I would like to find is a magtape end clipper/crimper, but I'm even less likely to find one since I'm taking an eBay vacation. Good luck! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 29 00:23:22 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 22:23:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11? In-Reply-To: <565A8BC2.5050406@sydex.com> References: <56536945.7060307@froghouse.org> <565415EE.6020506@update.uu.se> <565483B4.4050504@bitsavers.org> <5654DE80.50606@update.uu.se> <56568D5E.3080909@compsys.to> <5656FB40.306@compsys.to> <438A1FD3-4E58-477D-B074-1B6099869680@nf6x.net> <5658CA9C.5000106@update.uu.se> <565A63AA.2090400@compsys.to> <565A8BC2.5050406@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> WD style: no problem with index pulse timing relative to data NEC765 >> style: index pulse is necessary during LLF, but may need to be >> blocked during read/write, although a few of the newest drives may >> not be happy without index. On Sat, 28 Nov 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 765/8272 are particularly bad in this respect (they're blind for a full > millisecond or so) in contrast with 765A/8272A, which chopped the blind spot > by half. > In the 8272 days, I added a one-shot to delay the blind spot by a varying > amount, which solved the problem neatly, while still allowing the index to > pass through. > > The index is also needed for WD17/27 family controllers also for LLF. Ya > gotta start (and end) somewhere. Yep. Need index for LLF, but not necessarily for read/write, albeit with a few complications > If you simply block index with the 765 type FDC, you'll never get a "sector > not found" error--if you have a deadman timer, it'll expire. Exactly. It will time out, and get a time-out error instead of the requested sector not found. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 00:37:05 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 01:37:05 -0500 Subject: HAL DS-3100 ASR References: <00eb01d12a4e$83b26fa0$8b174ee0$@yahoo.ca> <00f501d12a57$8dd03950$a970abf0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <2AD34002B0704068AFC5A881F193572F@310e2> HAL Communications are still around AFAIK and the ham world is usually pretty good about documentation etc.; might be worth sending them an inquiry: http://www.halcomm.com/ Maybe even try to get in touch with Bill Henry: http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/history-of-hal-devices-and-hal-communications-corp.431281/ m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 10:39 PM Subject: RE: HAL DS-3100 ASR I'm not sure about that.. I've been trying to find any documentation I can online about it to understand more about how it works. I got it for $40 in non-working condition -- turned out it does work. But detailed info seems to be sparse. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 6:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HAL DS-3100 ASR On Nov 28, 2015 9:34 PM, "Brad" wrote: > > Just posting here in case anyone not on other forums I'm on sees this > and knows something about these. > > > > I picked up a HAL DS-3100 ASR terminal. My understanding is these are RTTY > devices intended for teletype/radio use. It is ASCII compatible and > in fact > I can select ASCII and baud rates from a menu. It has a 25 pin male 'MODEM' > port on the back. I can't find it now but somewhere I read it > complied with > an RS-232 standard. I tried hooking it up to my PC with a null modem cable, > but couldn't get either to produce anything on their screens. > > > > Anyway, just a shot in the dark in case any of you remember these things. > I'm not really into HAM stuff, but it's a cool little terminal and I > was hoping it could be used/adapted to other tasks. > > > > Brad > > > > > You have rules out that it is not a current loop terminal? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 29 08:29:12 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 09:29:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted Message-ID: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark J. Blair > I'm taking an eBay vacation. Which 12-step program are you in to help with that? :-) I could use a good recommendation!! :-) :-) Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 08:22:59 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 09:22:59 -0500 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: <565A6170.6080304@sbcglobal.net> References: <565A6170.6080304@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2015 1:12 AM, "Bob Rosenbloom" wrote: > > On 11/28/2015 4:47 PM, william degnan wrote: >> >> Anyone have a source to purchase the tape to repair a papertape, or a kit >> such as what they have here: >> >> http://physicsmuseum.uq.edu.au/paper-tape-repair-tool >> >> Thanks >> > You could try westnc.com, Thanks. I sent them an inquiry. If need be I will use a very thin tape and punch the holes manually, but I much prefer the old teletype repair tape or something like it that comes "pre-holed" so you can line up the holes to the existing tape. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 29 08:29:29 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 14:29:29 +0000 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Anyone have a source to purchase the tape to repair a papertape, or a kit > such as what they have here: > > http://physicsmuseum.uq.edu.au/paper-tape-repair-tool I have actually bought such hand punching kits in charity shops (thrift stores) in the UK -- but about 15 years ago. No, the ones I have are not for sale, I still use paper tape a lot... For a splicing jig it's worth remembering that the holes on normal paper tape are on 0.1" matrix so a line of pins soldered to a scrap of stripboard can be used to hold the sprocket holes in alignment. Of course you need the pre-punched sticky tape, but its one part you can easily make. -tony From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Nov 29 09:23:30 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 07:23:30 -0800 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Nov 29, 2015, at 06:29, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Mark J. Blair > >> I'm taking an eBay vacation. > > Which 12-step program are you in to help with that? :-) I could use a good > recommendation!! :-) :-) It was a cold turkey program. When there was that kerfluffle about PayPal's and eBay's terms of service changing with respect to robo-dialed telemarketing calls, I closed both accounts. They have both since at least partially retracted the bothersome terms, but I've been finding excuses to not rejoin because my acquisitions need some flow rate limiting. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 09:30:29 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 15:30:29 -0000 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> This has worked for me:- https://www.greatrail.com/tours/kerala-southern-india-tour/?tlUrl=%2Fholiday -destinations%2Fasia%2Findia%2F#GCJ6 just added a few days at the start and a few at the start to visit my son in Qatar and some at the end to extend the trip into Mumbai for a few days at the end. Not spent anything on E-Bay for a month... ... a month in China also works well...... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: 29 November 2015 14:29 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: papertape repair tape or kit wanted > > > From: Mark J. Blair > > > I'm taking an eBay vacation. > > Which 12-step program are you in to help with that? :-) I could use a good > recommendation!! :-) :-) > > Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Nov 29 09:51:12 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 07:51:12 -0800 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'll open a new PayPal account once I get around to setting up an isolated, dedicated bank account to link it to. It has already been inconvenient not having one when trading with other collectors off eBay. I may open a new eBay account in the future, too. But I don't plan to do either until next year. I'm still catching up on playing with the stuff I've already bought! :) I've made some progress on that matter over the holiday week, and it's been lots of fun. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Nov 29 12:13:19 2015 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 11:13:19 -0700 Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Mouse wrote: > > Love that term, "bounce buffer" (I wrote a whole package to support >>>> them in a packet switch I did) - I'm officially adopting it, right >>>> now! :-) >>>> >>>> Hey - anything that anyone writes is automatically copyrighted. >>> >>> I realize you...may have been less than entirely serious. But what you >> wrote could easily be taken seriously, especially by someone only >> partially inside our culture. So I'm going to be a minor killjoy here. >> >> Yes, anything written now is automatically copyrighted in most >> jursidctions. But (a) the term "bounce buffer" is small enough and >> obvious enough it probably cannot be copyrighted on its own (and is not >> infringing when copied in isolation), (b) was quite possibly published >> without copyright claim before automatic copyright and is thus in the >> public domain now, and (c) is of uncertain authorship anyway. So... >> >> So first you need permission to use that! >>> >>> ...you actually don't. >> >> Thank you for clarifying that aspect. I just considered > it so ridiculous that anyone would take the joke seriously > that I did not even consider the alternative. > > For the case of the RX02 DYX.SYS device driver, the > use of "bounce buffer" was the most descriptive phrase > that I have ever seen. During a READ request, the following > operations take place: > > (a) Set n = 0 > (a) A request is issued to fill the hardware silo from the floppy media > with sector a+n > (b) The hardware silo is transferred via DMA to the bounce buffer > (c) Set n = n+1 > (d) The next request is made to fill the hardware silo again with sector > a+n > (e) The bounce buffer is copied to the user's buffer one word at a time > Repeat (b), (c), (d) and (e) until finished > > Normally, during the interleave time, the device driver only needs to > transfer > the silo to the user's buffer. When a bounce buffer is required, the > device > driver has the time while the hardware silo is being filled to perform the > copy from the bounce buffer to the user's buffer. So the transfer from the > floppy media is actually bounced off the first data bounce buffer (in a > location > in physical memory which is supported by the hardware) to the final > location > in physical memory (where the user's buffer is located). COOOOOOL!! A similar thing was implemented on the old DEC Rainbow 100 (though I'm sure others). To give the software a chance to do some minor things while processing, it physically laid out the 10 sectors as 0 2 3 4 6 8 1 3 5 7 9 so that when reading sequentially, you had half a disk rotation to get your act together to read the next sector. This turned out to be only a small performance win, and was a pita for interoperability, so was done only in the earliest versions. Since these were RX50 disks, I suspected its origins were in the PDP-11s and VAXen that the drives were also attached to. Warner From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Nov 29 12:33:54 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 13:33:54 -0500 Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> Message-ID: > On Nov 29, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > ... > A similar thing was implemented on the old DEC Rainbow 100 (though > I'm sure others). To give the software a chance to do some minor things > while processing, it physically laid out the 10 sectors as 0 2 3 4 6 8 1 3 > 5 7 9 > so that when reading sequentially, you had half a disk rotation to get your > act > together to read the next sector. This turned out to be only a small > performance win, and was a pita for interoperability, so was done only in > the earliest versions. Since these were RX50 disks, I suspected its origins > were in the PDP-11s and VAXen that the drives were also attached to. I didn't know Rainbow did this, but it's familar from the PRO floppy controller. Those use a primitive controller (in fact, *all* PRO controllers are horribly primitive) where the CPU has to pull data from the device, with program I/O. So you'd likely have to use interleaving for decent performance. In any case, it does so. And the track start is offset by 3 sectors per track. And, last but not least, for some strange reason sector 0 is in physical track 1, while physical track 0 contains the highest 10 sectors. Presumably later devices used the same layout for compatibility. The PRO hard drive controller was also programmed I/O, but did't use interleave. And the Ethernet controller had a chip that did DMA (somewhat reliably) but only to on-card memory, so you either had to use that memory for network buffer space, or copy from the card to host memory. paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Nov 29 13:08:47 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 19:08:47 +0000 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: <000a01d12a32$6c943a40$45bcaec0$@ntlworld.com> References: <000001d12a21$16981cd0$43c85670$@ntlworld.com> <565A29B1.4050005@btinternet.com> <000a01d12a32$6c943a40$45bcaec0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <565B4D3F.8060608@btinternet.com> When I joined DEC our field service guys would go out armed with a 745 Tektronix scope (wonderful piece of kit), tools, spare TTL, soldering iron and so on. If you look at the boards from those days you could get the components out and change them. Flip - Chip Modules I love 'em. At that time DEC only hired engineers and then we got trained in sales. So you could normally hold your own with the field service guys. On day I took in a board I had wired up myself and asked if I could use the bench where they did board repairs. Usual comment 'OK which customer are you doing a favour for this time' So I owend up said I wired it. The answer came back oh if its a personal job it gets top prioriy. You can use what ever equipment you want and take whatever components you need. I often borrowed a scope ove the week end. I gathered that a number of DEC products were the result of engineers having an idea and putting it together at home from scrounged parts. Rod On 28/11/2015 23:13, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of rod >> Sent: 28 November 2015 22:25 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat >> >> Hi >> I had the exact same fault on my VAX. >> I took one look at the PSU and ordered up another one pronto. >> Trouble shoot in that small space no thank you. >> It works just fine. One day a VAX PSU guru will tell us how to fix it. >> >> Rod Smallwood >> > It *is* a fiendishly complex looking thing. The failure mode this time is slightly different to last time though, I intend to see what happens if I give it a completely dummy load, to see if it really is anything to do with the machine or not, there could be a short somewhere that is causing the PSU to shutdown. > > Regards > > Rob > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 29 13:21:53 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 19:21:53 +0000 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: <565B4D3F.8060608@btinternet.com> References: <000001d12a21$16981cd0$43c85670$@ntlworld.com> <565A29B1.4050005@btinternet.com> <000a01d12a32$6c943a40$45bcaec0$@ntlworld.com>, <565B4D3F.8060608@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > > So I owend up said I wired it. The answer came back oh if its a > personal job it gets top prioriy. > You can use what ever equipment you want and take whatever components > you need. > I often borrowed a scope ove the week end. I know a chap who runs a small electronics company. He actively encourages his employee(s) to take sensible quatities of small components (resistors, capacitors, 2N3904s, common ICs, etc) for private jobs. His arguement is that if they are doing electronics they must be learning something (or at least keeping their hand in) and might have ideas or solve problems that will help the company. But then he's an engineer not an accountant... -tony From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Nov 29 15:03:58 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 21:03:58 +0000 Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> Message-ID: <191D4064-77D8-4FC5-B0F6-9A84DC7650AB@swri.edu> On Nov 29, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > A similar thing was implemented on the old DEC Rainbow 100 (though > I'm sure others). To give the software a chance to do some minor things > while processing, it physically laid out the 10 sectors as 0 2 3 4 6 8 1 3 5 7 9 > so that when reading sequentially, you had half a disk rotation to get your act > together to read the next sector. This turned out to be only a small > performance win, and was a pita for interoperability, ?.but, at least you had a functionally redundant sector 3! :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 29 15:19:23 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 13:19:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: <191D4064-77D8-4FC5-B0F6-9A84DC7650AB@swri.edu> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <191D4064-77D8-4FC5-B0F6-9A84DC7650AB@swri.edu> Message-ID: >> it physically laid out the 10 sectors as 0 2 3 4 6 8 1 3 5 7 9 so that >> when reading sequentially, you had half a disk rotation to get your act >> together to read the next sector. This turned out to be only a small >> performance win, and was a pita for interoperability, On Sun, 29 Nov 2015, Tapley, Mark wrote: > ?.but, at least you had a functionally redundant sector 3! > :-) That way, a system that could handle 1:1 interleave would get one version of sector 3, while one that could not handle 1:1 interleave would get the other one, and you could have different code for the two kinds of machines. :-) But, that has 11 sectors on the track Were they 512 bytes each? Was it 8"? 5.25"? SD?, DD?, "HD"? From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 15:22:15 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 13:22:15 -0800 Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <191D4064-77D8-4FC5-B0F6-9A84DC7650AB@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > it physically laid out the 10 sectors as 0 2 3 4 6 8 1 3 5 7 9 so that >>> when reading sequentially, you had half a disk rotation to get your act >>> together to read the next sector. This turned out to be only a small >>> performance win, and was a pita for interoperability, >>> >> > On Sun, 29 Nov 2015, Tapley, Mark wrote: > >> ?.but, at least you had a functionally redundant sector 3! >> :-) >> > > That way, a system that could handle 1:1 interleave would get one version > of sector 3, while one that could not handle 1:1 interleave would get the > other one, and you could have different code for the two kinds of > machines. :-) > > > But, that has 11 sectors on the track > Were they 512 bytes each? > Was it 8"? 5.25"? SD?, DD?, "HD"? > 8" on one side, 5.25" on the other. -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 29 15:56:51 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 13:56:51 -0800 Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> Message-ID: <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> There were a few systems (such as CP/M) that optimized (or attempted to) interleave depending on use. So, "boot" tracks were 1:1, "directory" may have been 2:1 and user data 3:1. Schemes varied widely. One or two even interleaved side-to-side in addition to "skewing track-to-track. Obviously written by a programmer tasked with the job of "Let's see how fast we can get data on or off this thing". --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 16:05:11 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 17:05:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Brian Brikon diskette drive tester In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Nov 2015, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I purchased one of these units on eBay and it seems to be working - modulo a > few early-80s tantalum caps that went up in smoke. > > The tester relies on an attached printer to record test results, which are > displayed only fleetingly on the front-panel display. Unfortunately it did > not come with the printer and I cannot find any information on line. > > Does anyone have information on this? Is it serial? Parallel? The onnector > is a 20-pin, 0.1" DIP header on the rear panel. The tester supplies printer > power on a small 3-pin Molex connector. > > I can probably trace this out on the internal logic board, but thought > perhaps another list member owns one of these and can elaborate. > > I'm also trying to find the manual appropriate to a base Model 723 tester. > The one floating around on the net is for an upscale model (723-4M). While > there are a number of similarities, I'm running into just enough behavioral > difference to make it worth finding the correct docs. There's also a > programming and setup "worksheet" document that has not surfaced anywhere. Update: With a bit of patience I have figured out the printer interface. It uses a parallel printer and presents the following pinout on the 20-pin rear-panel header: 1 Gnd 2 n/c 3 +15V Reg 4 Gnd 5 D6 6 D5 7 D4 8 D3 9 D2 10 D1 11 D0 12 Gnd 13 Strobe* (Out) 14 Gnd 15 Gnd 16 Gnd 17 n/c 18 n/c 19 Busy (In) 20 Gnd I have no idea why there's a +15 supply. Note the 7-bit interface. Maybe someone will find this useful. Steve -- From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 19:40:43 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 20:40:43 -0500 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: NOTE: I will pay a generous price for a few inches of papertape repair tape if anyone has any! I am located in Landenberg, PA USA....Contact me privately if you can help. -- Bill From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 30 03:11:02 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 01:11:02 -0800 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> Message-ID: <565C12A6.9040701@jwsss.com> On 11/29/2015 11:32 PM, simon wrote: > what are the specs of the tape and glue? remember that using a > lasercutter from a nearby fablab or hackerspace could produce the > exact tape you need. > > > On 30-11-15 02:40, william degnan wrote: >> NOTE: I will pay a generous price for a few inches of papertape >> repair tape >> if anyone has any! I am located in Landenberg, PA USA....Contact me >> privately if you can help. >> > We repaired tape with contact glue and rubout tape punched on an ASR33. I guess it would depend on whether you were repairing paper, fiber or mylar material though whether the adhesive would work or not. I have a box of the repair material somewhere, but I suspect the adhesive would be useless with the material. Better to manufacture your own with Williams suggestion, or a simpler one like mine. BTW, we only used this method with tapes to be read on an ASR33. We didn't have high speed machines. You can use scotch tape sometimes on units with optical readers, and dupe the tape from what you read if you need to have a copy w/o a break in it. thanks Jim From simski at dds.nl Mon Nov 30 01:32:45 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 08:32:45 +0100 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> what are the specs of the tape and glue? remember that using a lasercutter from a nearby fablab or hackerspace could produce the exact tape you need. On 30-11-15 02:40, william degnan wrote: > NOTE: I will pay a generous price for a few inches of papertape repair tape > if anyone has any! I am located in Landenberg, PA USA....Contact me > privately if you can help. > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 03:42:37 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:42:37 -0000 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: <565C12A6.9040701@jwsss.com> References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> <565C12A6.9040701@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <001901d12b53$73163450$59429cf0$@gmail.com> > > I have a box of the repair material somewhere, but I suspect the > adhesive would be useless with the material. Better to manufacture your > own with Williams suggestion, or a simpler one like mine. BTW, we only > used this method with tapes to be read on an ASR33. We didn't have high > speed machines. > I remember there being the remains of a pinch roller from the KDF9 high speed tape reader that had been destroyed by a bad join in a tape in University of Newcastle data prep room. There was also a warning to re-punch tapes for that reader...... > You can use scotch tape sometimes on units with optical readers, and > dupe the tape from what you read if you need to have a copy w/o a break > in it. > > thanks > Jim From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 03:42:37 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:42:37 -0000 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: <565C12A6.9040701@jwsss.com> References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> <565C12A6.9040701@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <001901d12b53$73163450$59429cf0$@gmail.com> > > I have a box of the repair material somewhere, but I suspect the > adhesive would be useless with the material. Better to manufacture your > own with Williams suggestion, or a simpler one like mine. BTW, we only > used this method with tapes to be read on an ASR33. We didn't have high > speed machines. > I remember there being the remains of a pinch roller from the KDF9 high speed tape reader that had been destroyed by a bad join in a tape in University of Newcastle data prep room. There was also a warning to re-punch tapes for that reader...... > You can use scotch tape sometimes on units with optical readers, and > dupe the tape from what you read if you need to have a copy w/o a break > in it. > > thanks > Jim From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Nov 30 03:34:01 2015 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 01:34:01 -0800 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> Message-ID: <001001d12b52$3fe57510$bfb05f30$@pacbell.net> Here is an idea I haven't tried, but might work: Take some unoiled paper or mylar tape and punch it with rubouts. Spray one side with spray-on photo mounting adhesive just before use. It would definitely leave a thick spot in the repaired tape, but I suspect it would hold up long enough to punch a copy. --Bill http://www.amazon.com/3M-Spray-Artists-Adhesive-MMM6065/dp/B00006IFBF From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 30 05:22:11 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:22:11 +0000 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: <001901d12b53$73163450$59429cf0$@gmail.com> References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> <565C12A6.9040701@jwsss.com> <001901d12b53$73163450$59429cf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <565C3163.60809@btinternet.com> Back inthe early 70's one of my jobs was to repair and set up 4K core stores for ICT 4100 systems. The company I worked for were an off shoot of the big boat builders Camper & Nicholsons. It was an all paper tape system (no cards). There were two readers, two punches and two keyboardless golfball typewriters. I have forgotten exactly what types they were. I think the punch said something like BPRE on it and the readers did not match the rest of the system being painted a sort of PDP 8 Bezel white. To test the repaired core stores I ran an Algol program that did the handicapping for sailing boats. First you loaded the program (a reel of paper tape about three inches across.) I had a tape width wide perspex box with slots to put a pin through to locate the tape. . There was one switch to load and go. Centre was off, up loaded the tape to the start in the reader and down set it off. Boy was it quick! The tape shot through the reader and into a bin. Tape get tangled? Nope never did. At this point the printer would say Data? Of course you did not load the data tape. First you rewound the program tape so as not mix them up in the bin. My favorite trick was to grab the end of the tape before it got to the bin. The rewinder was just like a film rewinder. Next up load the data tape and then wait about 10-15 mins for the output to appear on the printer. Am I going to run a paper tape system on my 8/e Hell yes!! Rod On 30/11/2015 09:42, Dave Wade wrote: >> I have a box of the repair material somewhere, but I suspect the >> adhesive would be useless with the material. Better to manufacture your >> own with Williams suggestion, or a simpler one like mine. BTW, we only >> used this method with tapes to be read on an ASR33. We didn't have high >> speed machines. >> > I remember there being the remains of a pinch roller from the KDF9 high speed tape reader that had been destroyed by a bad join in a tape in University of Newcastle data prep room. > There was also a warning to re-punch tapes for that reader...... > > >> You can use scotch tape sometimes on units with optical readers, and >> dupe the tape from what you read if you need to have a copy w/o a break >> in it. >> >> thanks >> Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 30 06:22:00 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 12:22:00 +0000 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: <565C3163.60809@btinternet.com> References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> <565C12A6.9040701@jwsss.com> <001901d12b53$73163450$59429cf0$@gmail.com>,<565C3163.60809@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > punches and two keyboardless golfball typewriters. I have forgotten > exactly what types they were. I think the punch said something like > BPRE on it and the readers did not match the rest of the system being Probably BRPE (normally pronounced 'Burpee') which is a high speed (something like 110 characters/second) paper tape punch from Teletype. IIRC the Teletype ones were in a grey all-metal cabinet with a lift-up lid. There was also a Data Dynamics version in a cabinet with a smoked perspex door and with a couple of pygmy light bulbs under the chad box to illuminate the front. That looks pretty but doesn't change the perfomance... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 30 06:25:16 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 12:25:16 +0000 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> , Message-ID: > NOTE: I will pay a generous price for a few inches of papertape repair tape > if anyone has any! I am located in Landenberg, PA USA....Contact me > privately if you can help. The official splicing tape I've seen is in little squares with all holes punched (probably covers 9 or 10 characters on the tape. I may still have some somewhere, but it was trasparent tape so the crack between the ends of the 2 bits of paper tape you were joining would confuse most optical treaders. In the end I would run out a bit of all-holes tape (the Facit 4070 punch I use has a switch for this!), cut off a bit and stick that over the join using paper glue (a Prit Stick or equivalent works OK for splices that don't have to last too long) -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 06:54:26 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 07:54:26 -0500 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2015 7:29 AM, "tony duell" wrote: > > > NOTE: I will pay a generous price for a few inches of papertape repair tape > > if anyone has any! I am located in Landenberg, PA USA....Contact me > > privately if you can help. > > The official splicing tape I've seen is in little squares with all holes punched > (probably covers 9 or 10 characters on the tape. I may still have some > somewhere, but it was trasparent tape so the crack between the ends of the > 2 bits of paper tape you were joining would confuse most optical treaders. > > In the end I would run out a bit of all-holes tape (the Facit 4070 punch I use > has a switch for this!), cut off a bit and stick that over the join using paper > glue (a Prit Stick or equivalent works OK for splices that don't have to last > too long) > > -tony Tony/all, Yes, the little squares were what I have used before, they're pre-holed to make it easy to realign overtop. That si what I am looking to source, ideally comercially-produced if they exist. ASR 33 use. I'd be happy with a small qty if anyone has these for sale or trade. Maybe I will ask green keys list, just thought of that, doh! Someone there might be able to help. Regarding the tape in question I do have a previously-punched backup tape for "everyday" use, I do not plan to actually use the ripped original unless there is no other choice. I just want to repair it for archival purposes. Thanks Bill From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 30 07:47:36 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:47:36 +0000 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> <565C12A6.9040701@jwsss.com> <001901d12b53$73163450$59429cf0$@gmail.com> <565C3163.60809@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <565C5378.6060607@btinternet.com> Hi Tony Did you say Data Dynamics? I certainly knew them. I used to sell them LA36 print mechs. It was run by two old guys called Tindale and Stabler. The factory was in Hayes and I used to drive there from the DEC office in Ealing via Bombay (sorry I mean Southall). Their stuff was very nice and the factory was always very tidy. Their KSR using the LA36 print mechanics and fitted with a reader/punch was really smooth in operation. Now that would really be a find. Rod Smallwood On 30/11/2015 12:22, tony duell wrote: >> punches and two keyboardless golfball typewriters. I have forgotten >> exactly what types they were. I think the punch said something like >> BPRE on it and the readers did not match the rest of the system being > Probably BRPE (normally pronounced 'Burpee') which is a high speed > (something like 110 characters/second) paper tape punch from > Teletype. > > IIRC the Teletype ones were in a grey all-metal cabinet with a lift-up > lid. There was also a Data Dynamics version in a cabinet with a smoked > perspex door and with a couple of pygmy light bulbs under the chad box > to illuminate the front. That looks pretty but doesn't change the perfomance... > > -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 30 08:46:26 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:46:26 +0000 Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> , <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> Message-ID: I wrote an interleave formatter for a friend to use on his H89. He had an enormous data file that took for ever to read in BASIC. He couldn't believe it could be made to work so much faster. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2015 1:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] There were a few systems (such as CP/M) that optimized (or attempted to) interleave depending on use. So, "boot" tracks were 1:1, "directory" may have been 2:1 and user data 3:1. Schemes varied widely. One or two even interleaved side-to-side in addition to "skewing track-to-track. Obviously written by a programmer tasked with the job of "Let's see how fast we can get data on or off this thing". --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 10:14:40 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 17:14:40 +0100 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28 November 2015 at 11:58, Adrian Graham wrote: > That's what I've been doing for the last 2 months, all centred around fixing > a PET4032. Is Sir aware of Tynemouth Software? http://blog.tynemouthsoftware.co.uk/2015/09/commodore-pet-8032-repair-overclocked-to-death.html http://blog.tynemouthsoftware.co.uk/2015/05/commodore-pet-romram-replacement-boards.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 10:35:11 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:35:11 -0500 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wonderful fun...Note you need an arrow to the mental institution someplace, especially if you are trying to load programs from Teletype. -- Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 30 10:44:43 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 16:44:43 +0000 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: <565C5378.6060607@btinternet.com> References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> <565C12A6.9040701@jwsss.com> <001901d12b53$73163450$59429cf0$@gmail.com> <565C3163.60809@btinternet.com> , <565C5378.6060607@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > Hi Tony > Did you say Data Dynamics? I certainly knew them. I used > to sell them LA36 print mechs. Yes, almost certainly the same company. They sold several teleprinters based on the Teletype Model 33. Same mechanics, but IMHO a nicer (all metal) case and different electronics. I have one which is a normal ASR33 typing unit, keyboard, and reader but in a case with bulbs to illuminate the printout and electronics to give both RS232 and current loop interfaces and a single-step button for the reader. > It was run by two old guys called Tindale and Stabler. The factory was > in Hayes and I used to drive > there from the DEC office in Ealing via Bombay (sorry I mean Southall). Ah, that Hayes, not the one just down the road from me across Keston Common. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 30 11:43:34 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 17:43:34 +0000 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 30/11/2015 16:14, "Liam Proven" wrote: > On 28 November 2015 at 11:58, Adrian Graham > wrote: >> That's what I've been doing for the last 2 months, all centred around fixing >> a PET4032. > > > Is Sir aware of Tynemouth Software? > All of this fixing I'm currently doing is all Dave's fault, so yes :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rickb at bensene.com Mon Nov 30 12:26:08 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 10:26:08 -0800 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF6@mail.bensene.com> Hi, all, Just figured I'd post something about my tinkering yesterday. I got an M8830 from Paul Anderson. This is the crystal-contolled clock for the Omnibus PDP 8 machines. Yesterday, I had a chance to try it out. First, I checked the power supply pins to make sure no shorts or anything like that and all was good. A quick visual inspection showed no obvious issues. It was already jumpered for a 50Hz interrupt rate, so I went ahead and plugged it into the backplane. Powered the 8/e system up, and ran a few tests from the front panel to make sure the board was responding to its IOTs, and all seemed well. Booted up OS8 from RK05, and mounted up the multos8.rk05 drive via the serialdisk driver. Copied the MULTOS8 .SV files onto my SYS: volume, and although not configured exactly for my system, I figured they'd be close enough. I then stopped the serial disk server, and fired up Kermit on the laptop connected to the second serial port on the 8/e. Then, I typed R MULTOS on the console, and it said something to the effect that I needed to set the date first. I generally don't bother setting the date at boot time, so I set the date to a valid date, and tried again. This time it gave a welcome message. I checked the accumulator, and it was counting off time as it should. I checked the MQ register, and it was static, but then waited for the accumulator to overflow, and then the MQ incremented by 1, as it should. I pressed CONTROL-H on the console terminal and hit RETURN, and there was the . OS8 prompt! I went to the laptop connected to the other serial interface, and since there was no MULTOS 8 password file on the SYS: device, typed CONTROL-H there, got the login prompt, hit RETURN, and low and behold, another . prompt. I played around with it for a while, and found that because of some of the config differences in how MULTOS8 was built on the pack image, some things were acting strange but in general, it definitely was timesharing between the two users. I could run concurrent things on both terminals, and the response was quite acceptable. I intend to make a build of MULTOS 8 to match my system's configuration, and tinker with it some more when I get time. Next I want to replicate the ETOS Timeshare Board (thanks to Vince and Jack for reverse-engineering the board and making a nice schematic!) I'm accumulating parts to build one on an Omnibus prototype board. Once I get that built, then it'll be time to try out ETOS, which uses the improvements in trapping IOTs and dealing with field change instructions that really improve timesharing performance over MULTOS 8. I am also in the process of getting ready to image some old RK05 packs that belong to Paul Anderson that may hold some interesting ETOS stuff. The packs have been sitting around for quite a long time, and the platters are very dusty. They are going to require some good cleaning before they can be put in a drive, but hopefully, once I get them cleaned up, I'll find some good things relating to ETOS. I'll post updates here with my progress. -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 30 12:34:36 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 12:34:36 -0600 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF6@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF6@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <001c01d12b9d$c400ed70$4c02c850$@classiccmp.org> FYI - in the not too distant future I'm going to get back to my 8E rig. I'll be pulling out the TU10/TM11(unused, obviously) from the second cabinet and putting in an RX01 and RK05, and hopefully connecting up the TU56 and PC04 that are in the main cabinet. In any case, my goal is to run ETOS on the thing - so I too am closely following the progress of the group that is working to replicate the hardware board for it. J From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Nov 30 12:50:24 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:50:24 -0500 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing Message-ID: <134ab.49cb9d18.438df46f@aol.com> when I was young in the computer biz wanted to build a timeshare 8 system.. however ended up going down the HP route instead for the rest of my career . There was also something called TSS-8 as I remember. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 11/30/2015 11:34:49 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: FYI - in the not too distant future I'm going to get back to my 8E rig. I'll be pulling out the TU10/TM11(unused, obviously) from the second cabinet and putting in an RX01 and RK05, and hopefully connecting up the TU56 and PC04 that are in the main cabinet. In any case, my goal is to run ETOS on the thing - so I too am closely following the progress of the group that is working to replicate the hardware board for it. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 30 12:58:00 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 12:58:00 -0600 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing In-Reply-To: <134ab.49cb9d18.438df46f@aol.com> References: <134ab.49cb9d18.438df46f@aol.com> Message-ID: <002901d12ba1$087e29b0$197a7d10$@classiccmp.org> Ed wrote... ----------------------- when I was young in the computer biz wanted to build a timeshare 8 system.. however ended up going down the HP route instead for the rest of my career . ----------- You chose the better path for a timesharing system *ducks & runs* J From rickb at bensene.com Mon Nov 30 13:03:06 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:03:06 -0800 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing References: <134ab.49cb9d18.438df46f@aol.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF7@mail.bensene.com> Ed wrote: > when I was young in the computer biz wanted to build a timeshare 8 > system.. > however ended up going down the HP route instead for the rest of my > career . > There was also something called TSS-8 as I remember. Ed# I'd *LOVE* to be able to have a real-hardware HP Timeshared BASIC system running here, but alas, those are a lot harder to come by than DEC stuff. I do have a 2000/Access system running under SimH hooked directly to an ASR-33, which emulates the experience relatively closely, but there's nothing like the real hardware. I cut my teeth learning programming on the HP Timeshared BASIC systems starting in 6th grade under the 2000C version. TSS-8 was indeed a timeshare system for the PDP 8, but it was written to run on DECs earlier fixed-head disk drives that are hard to come about today (compared to RK05's). I've heard that someone had made changes to TSS-8 to get it to run on an RK05, but the fact that it's a moving head disk drive versus a fixed head drive that TSS-8 was designed to run under, the poor RK05 gets thrashed pretty hard when timesharing. There are also the Edusystem timeshared systems that DEC developed for the PDP 8, but I haven't looked too deeply into these yet. -Rick From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 30 13:05:32 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:05:32 -0600 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF7@mail.bensene.com> References: <134ab.49cb9d18.438df46f@aol.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF7@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <002c01d12ba2$163148c0$4293da40$@classiccmp.org> Rick wrote.... ------- I'd *LOVE* to be able to have a real-hardware HP Timeshared BASIC system running here, but alas, those are a lot harder to come by than DEC stuff ------- Contact me off-list :) J From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Nov 30 13:31:14 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:31:14 -0500 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing Message-ID: <18b6d.5c7f4fcf.438dfe02@aol.com> somewhere i have an edu system book. HA! yea the fixed head drives made better swapping media! for tss 8 as core was small in those days! In a message dated 11/30/2015 12:03:12 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, rickb at bensene.com writes: Ed wrote: > when I was young in the computer biz wanted to build a timeshare 8 > system.. > however ended up going down the HP route instead for the rest of my > career . > There was also something called TSS-8 as I remember. Ed# I'd *LOVE* to be able to have a real-hardware HP Timeshared BASIC system running here, but alas, those are a lot harder to come by than DEC stuff. I do have a 2000/Access system running under SimH hooked directly to an ASR-33, which emulates the experience relatively closely, but there's nothing like the real hardware. I cut my teeth learning programming on the HP Timeshared BASIC systems starting in 6th grade under the 2000C version. TSS-8 was indeed a timeshare system for the PDP 8, but it was written to run on DECs earlier fixed-head disk drives that are hard to come about today (compared to RK05's). I've heard that someone had made changes to TSS-8 to get it to run on an RK05, but the fact that it's a moving head disk drive versus a fixed head drive that TSS-8 was designed to run under, the poor RK05 gets thrashed pretty hard when timesharing. There are also the Edusystem timeshared systems that DEC developed for the PDP 8, but I haven't looked too deeply into these yet. -Rick From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 30 14:09:40 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:09:40 +0100 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF6@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF6@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <565CAD04.70700@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-30 19:26, Rick Bensene wrote: > Hi, all, > > Just figured I'd post something about my tinkering yesterday. > > I got an M8830 from Paul Anderson. This is the crystal-contolled clock > for the Omnibus PDP 8 machines. > Yesterday, I had a chance to try it out. > > First, I checked the power supply pins to make sure no shorts or > anything like that and all was good. > A quick visual inspection showed no obvious issues. > It was already jumpered for a 50Hz interrupt rate, so I went ahead and > plugged it into the backplane. > Powered the 8/e system up, and ran a few tests from the front panel to > make sure the board was responding to its IOTs, and all seemed well. > > Booted up OS8 from RK05, and mounted up the multos8.rk05 drive via the > serialdisk driver. > Copied the MULTOS8 .SV files onto my SYS: volume, and although not > configured exactly for my system, I figured they'd be close enough. > > I then stopped the serial disk server, and fired up Kermit on the laptop > connected to the second serial port on the 8/e. Then, I typed R MULTOS > on the console, and it said something to the effect that I needed to set > the date first. > I generally don't bother setting the date at boot time, so I set the > date to a valid date, and tried again. > > This time it gave a welcome message. > I checked the accumulator, and it was counting off time as it should. I > checked the MQ register, and it was static, but then waited for the > accumulator to overflow, and then the MQ incremented by 1, as it should. > > I pressed CONTROL-H on the console terminal and hit RETURN, and there > was the . OS8 prompt! > > I went to the laptop connected to the other serial interface, and since > there was no MULTOS 8 password file on the SYS: device, typed CONTROL-H > there, got the login prompt, hit RETURN, and low and behold, another . > prompt. > > I played around with it for a while, and found that because of some of > the config differences in how MULTOS8 was built on the pack image, some > things were acting strange but in general, it definitely was timesharing > between the two users. > I could run concurrent things on both terminals, and the response was > quite acceptable. > > I intend to make a build of MULTOS 8 to match my system's configuration, > and tinker with it some more when I get time. > > Next I want to replicate the ETOS Timeshare Board (thanks to Vince and > Jack for reverse-engineering the board and making a nice schematic!) > I'm accumulating parts to build one on an Omnibus prototype board. > Once I get that built, then it'll be time to try out ETOS, which uses > the improvements in trapping IOTs and dealing with field change > instructions that really improve timesharing performance over MULTOS 8. Fun stuff. However, I do not expect you'll see much impovement in performance in ETOS compared to MULTOS. You'll gain if you have code that do CIF n, followed by much code before the JMP/JMS, but that is not exactly a common pattern in most PDP-8 code. Also, MULTOS do some clever stuff. It actually will modify in memory code that do polled loops for example, to not do those. Unless ETOS do the same, that might actually hurt ETOS more. Also, MULTOS is the only timesharing system I know that actually also handles the TD8E controller, if you happen to have one of those. I only wish I knew where I have version 2 of MULTOS. I uploaded version 1 a long time ago, but only at a later date realized that it wasn't the latest version. I *think* I should have version 2 somewhere as well, but my memory might be wrong also. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Nov 30 14:18:27 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:18:27 +1300 Subject: Apple II+ repair details Message-ID: Speaking of Schrodinger's feline, here are details of my recent Apple II+ repair for those who might be interested: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-11-29-more-repairs-to-my-appleII+.htm Terry (Tez) From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 30 14:34:12 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:34:12 -0600 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing In-Reply-To: <565CAD04.70700@update.uu.se> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF6@mail.bensene.com> <565CAD04.70700@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <000801d12bae$794405e0$6bcc11a0$@classiccmp.org> Johnny wrote... ------------------------------------ Fun stuff. However, I do not expect you'll see much impovement in performance in ETOS compared to MULTOS. You'll gain if you have code that do CIF n, followed by much code before the JMP/JMS, but that is not exactly a common pattern in most PDP-8 code. Also, MULTOS do some clever stuff. It actually will modify in memory code that do polled loops for example, to not do those. Unless ETOS do the same, that might actually hurt ETOS more. Also, MULTOS is the only timesharing system I know that actually also handles the TD8E controller, if you happen to have one of those. I only wish I knew where I have version 2 of MULTOS. I uploaded version 1 a long time ago, but only at a later date realized that it wasn't the latest version. I *think* I should have version 2 somewhere as well, but my memory might be wrong also. ------------------------------------- I would love to see some comparison between ETOS and MULTOS by anyone "in the know". I'd just like a nice timeshareing system for my 8E that is close to OS/8 and runnable with the hardware I have. Alternatively, TSS looks nice, but I am not sure that the full OS was ever found and is available? Hardware Reqs? J From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 14:44:35 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:44:35 -0600 Subject: Apple II+ repair details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <565CB533.2010602@gmail.com> On 11/30/2015 02:18 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Speaking of Schrodinger's feline, here are details of my recent Apple II+ > repair for those who might be interested: > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-11-29-more-repairs-to-my-appleII+.htm Nice! My II+ needs a new escape keyswitch, keycap and encoder IC, just in case anyone reading this ever happens to be parting out a US-spec system (I'm guessing that a Europlus or J-plus encoder is very slightly different. Was also led to believe that there are a couple of different keycap styles for US-spec systems). The keycap's probably the critical thing - I think there may be other sources for the switches (at least there were until a few years ago), and I suppose that a PIC-based approach via a small plug-in carrier board would be an option for the encoder if needed, although it would be nice to keep the machine original if possible. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 30 14:45:22 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 12:45:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sector Interleave (Was: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash In-Reply-To: References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> , <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, dwight wrote: > I wrote an interleave formatter for a friend to use on his H89. > He had an enormous data file that took for ever to read in BASIC. > He couldn't believe it could be made to work so much faster. Oversimplified remedial tutorial: Ideally, the system reads a sector, does what it has to do with the content, and goes back for the next one, and can read every sector of the track in a single revolution. But, if the system can't finish with a sector in time for the next sector, then it's going to have to wait a full revolution of the disk, which would be the worst condition. With 10 sectors per track, we are looking at a simple file read taking 10 times as long. Well, OK, the system could take hours to process the data from the sector, so there is no maximum possible slowness. Maybe Microsoft knows what the maximum slowest is. Most "modern" systems can keep up with simple numeric sequence, although some software can slow things down enough to bring the problem back. If it is just barely too slow to get the next sector in sequence, then a simple rearrangement of the sectors on the disk could solve it. Something as simple as arranging the sectors such as 1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9,5 The rest of the software doesn't even need to know about it. It still asks for sector 1, then asks for sector 2, etc. If that's still not enough, it can go something such as 1,4,7,2,5,8,3,6,9 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8 etc. Obviously, simply loading the content of a file into memory can be done quicker than if some software is trying to process the incoming data. Some of us have been crazy enough to use disks with different sector sequences for data files of different programs (WORDSTAR V WEIRD V WORDPERVERT V SUPERCALC, etc.) In addition, depending on how long the drive takes to move to the next track, you might need more time before reading the first sector of the next track. So, in some cases, it may be more efficient to have the first sector of the next track not be the first physical sector on that track. The sectors of that track could be in the same pattern, but simply starting at a different point in the cycle. A computer system that rearranges sectors on the track can normally manage OK with a disk formatted on a different system with a different physical sequence. If you are writing a program to FORMAT disks for a machine, the sector sequence will not necessarily matter, although it could result in slower access. When looking at an unfamiliar disk format, if the sectors are not in sequential order, then it usually means that the OS uses them in numeric order, but that the arrangement is out of numeric order for efficiency. Sector sequence can also be done in software. With the physical sectors still arranged sequentially and consecutively, the OS could decide that the first "logical" sector(s) are in sector 1, and the next logical sector(s) are in sector 3, etc. ("deblocking") If the sectors of an unknown disk are in numeric order, it could mean that 1) the system was efficient enough to handle consecutive sectors 2) the designer didn't care about that level of efficiency 3) the OS is not using the sectors in numeric order. In that case, it calls for examining the content of sectors, looking for information flow. If you encounter the first part of a word of text at the end of one sector ("half a worm in the apple"), and the rest of the word at the beginning of another sector, that helps determine the sector sequence. If you aren't lucky enough to have text files in a language that you can follow, look for source files (such as DUMP.ASM), and machine language of processors that you can follow. Tracks where some sectors have been over-written with other content can make it more confusing to determine the sequence. It is USUALLY the same on every track, but there are rare exceptions. And different disk formats from the same manufacturer may be different. Physical format may be different on boot or system tracks than on the rest of the disk. Other than sector numbers the physical format is usually the same on both sides of a DS disk. When you encounter one that is not, it is likely to be a DS disk that has been reformatted to use on a SS machine, such as re-using a PC disk for an Osborne. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 30 14:49:06 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:49:06 +0100 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing In-Reply-To: <000801d12bae$794405e0$6bcc11a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF6@mail.bensene.com> <565CAD04.70700@update.uu.se> <000801d12bae$794405e0$6bcc11a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <565CB642.6090304@update.uu.se> On 2015-11-30 21:34, Jay West wrote: > > Johnny wrote... > ------------------------------------ > Fun stuff. However, I do not expect you'll see much impovement in performance in ETOS compared to MULTOS. > > You'll gain if you have code that do CIF n, followed by much code before the JMP/JMS, but that is not exactly a common pattern in most PDP-8 code. > Also, MULTOS do some clever stuff. It actually will modify in memory code that do polled loops for example, to not do those. Unless ETOS do the same, that might actually hurt ETOS more. Also, MULTOS is the only timesharing system I know that actually also handles the TD8E controller, if you happen to have one of those. > I only wish I knew where I have version 2 of MULTOS. I uploaded version > 1 a long time ago, but only at a later date realized that it wasn't the latest version. I *think* I should have version 2 somewhere as well, but my memory might be wrong also. > ------------------------------------- > > I would love to see some comparison between ETOS and MULTOS by anyone "in the know". I'd just like a nice timeshareing system for my 8E that is close to OS/8 and runnable with the hardware I have. Well, if you have a 8E with a clock, and you run OS/8, then you can run MULTOS. Then you need (of course) serial lines... MULTOS is like running OS/8, and most of the time you'll not even notice the difference, except you have to log in, and you might notice the "strange" device name on your system. Pretty much all OS/8 software runs just fine under MULTOS, and most of the time at about the same speed. Of course, it do depend on system load. But most systems are sitting idle most of the time anyway... :-) Programs that do direct I/O to strange devices will not work, though. Nor will general interrupt-driven code. FRTS do work, however. And you can write programs that use MULTOS specific features. > Alternatively, TSS looks nice, but I am not sure that the full OS was ever found and is available? Hardware Reqs? TSS8 is a different beast. It's not related to OS/8, so you'll have to adopt to a different environment, and each job only have 4K to play in. And, as others mentioned, not sure if it works on an RK8E. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 14:51:38 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 12:51:38 -0800 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing In-Reply-To: <002c01d12ba2$163148c0$4293da40$@classiccmp.org> References: <134ab.49cb9d18.438df46f@aol.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF7@mail.bensene.com> <002c01d12ba2$163148c0$4293da40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Jay West wrote: > Rick wrote.... > ------- > I'd *LOVE* to be able to have a real-hardware HP Timeshared BASIC system > running here, but alas, those are a lot harder to come by than DEC stuff > ------- > Contact me off-list :) > > J If you have a 2113B and a 2117F could you use those as a base? What are the magic parts? Some special and rare interconnect boards? And a special and rare async mux? And particular disc requirements? From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 30 14:55:41 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:55:41 -0500 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> > On Nov 30, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Oversimplified remedial tutorial: > Ideally, the system reads a sector, does what it has to do with the content, and goes back for the next one, and can read every sector of the track in a single revolution. > ... > It is USUALLY the same on every track, but there are rare exceptions. And different disk formats from the same manufacturer may be different. Your writeup was aimed at floppy disks, but interleave may also appear on hard drives. I don't remember it in reasonably modern systems, but it shows up on CDC 6000 systems. There the same drive model may be either interleaved ("2:1 interleave") or not ("1:1 interleave" [sic]) depending on the CPU. The original 6000 series CPUs (or more precisely, their PPUs and I/O channels) are too slow for non-interleaved transfer with the stock CDC drivers, so interleaving is used. The 170 series have PPUs and channels that go twice as fast, so they can handle non-interleaved transfers without losing revolutions. And clever programming such as used in PLATO enables non-interleaved access even on the 6000 series. Use of interleaving when not needed comes with a 2x performance penalty, which is why PLATO did a bunch of magic to avoid using it. paul From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Nov 30 14:57:56 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:57:56 -0500 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing Message-ID: <234a8.5230a0de.438e1254@aol.com> Jay - yes I know and for hardware sales too..... as I sold and troubleshot what I used and needed all the time in house so it was a perfect match. eventually the only DEC stuff that was there was in museum displays in the other suite the museum occupied. Ed# In a message dated 11/30/2015 11:58:08 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: Ed wrote... ----------------------- when I was young in the computer biz wanted to build a timeshare 8 system.. however ended up going down the HP route instead for the rest of my career . ----------- You chose the better path for a timesharing system *ducks & runs* J From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Nov 30 15:07:37 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:07:37 -0600 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing In-Reply-To: References: <134ab.49cb9d18.438df46f@aol.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF7@mail.bensene.com> <002c01d12ba2$163148c0$4293da40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000901d12bb3$2442e840$6cc8b8c0$@classiccmp.org> Glen wrote... ------ If you have a 2113B and a 2117F could you use those as a base? What are the magic parts? Some special and rare interconnect boards? And a special and rare async mux? And particular disc requirements? ------ 2113/2117 - yes. Off the top of my head.... For 2000E, you can get by with a single cpu, paper tape reader, and 7900 disc drive (non HPIB). That's the smallest config likely to be runnable by folks (unless you happen to have a drum unit or fixed head disc for prior versions). And the mux set below.... For Access (by far the best version), of course two cpus, mag tape (non-HPIB), and disc (again, non-HPIB) are required. 32kw in the main cpu, from 16kw to 32kw in the IO cpu depending on sysgen choices. I believe one of the processors needs FPP, have to check that. But the magic bits... 1) You'd need the IOP microcode. This is downloadable from bitsavers for 21MX/E and you can burn them. I can get people burned chips if they wish. For the M series, you need the microcode AND a daughterboard to put them in :) For the 2100, I have the microcode - and I'm not aware that those are available anywhere else. In most - possibly all - situations the iop firmware must be on a fab (E/F). Trying to put it in a FEM may (have to check, I think it will) cause issues with hard coded slot assignments in the IOP. 2) You'd need the processor interconnect kit. Basically this is 4 (two per cpu) 12566 boards and you'd have to build or find the cables for them. 3) MOST difficult... you need the 12920A or 12920B mux set (3 board set). These are unobtainium. 4) If you want to enable the IBM MRJE facility, you'd need the sync modem (2 board set). Pretty rare... J From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 15:21:06 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 16:21:06 -0500 Subject: Sector Interleave References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 3:55 PM > On Nov 30, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Oversimplified remedial tutorial: > Ideally, the system reads a sector, does what it has to do with the content, and goes back for the next one, and can read every sector of the track in a single revolution. > ... > It is USUALLY the same on every track, but there are rare exceptions. And different disk formats from the same manufacturer may be different. Your writeup was aimed at floppy disks, but interleave may also appear on hard drives. I don't remember it in reasonably modern systems, but it shows up on CDC 6000 systems. ----- Reply ----- Definitely an issue with IBM PC/XTs and clones; I recall testing every new combination of HD and controller for most efficient interleave before I delivered to the client. m From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 30 15:45:32 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:45:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> Oversimplified remedial tutorial: >> Ideally, the system reads a sector, does what it has to do with the content, and goes back for the next one, and can read every sector of the track in a single revolution. From: "Paul Koning" > Your writeup was aimed at floppy disks, but interleave may also appear > on hard drives. I don't remember it in reasonably modern systems, but > it shows up on CDC 6000 systems. On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Reply ----- Definitely an issue with IBM PC/XTs and clones; I > recall testing every new combination of HD and controller for most > efficient interleave before I delivered to the client. 1) Are there any examples newer than PC/XT 5160? Although, obviously, completely hidden from the user, is it still used on anything "modern"? (Should ALL verbs be changed to past tense?) 2) Is it used on anything besides spinning rust? 3) Besides all of my examples being floppy, what else should be changed/corrected in what I wrote? From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 16:09:59 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 17:09:59 -0500 Subject: Sector Interleave References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <74172D0DB506490781497C9D503DD715@310e2> Nothing wrong with what you wrote that I can see; excellent tutorial IMO. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Sector Interleave >>> Oversimplified remedial tutorial: >>> Ideally, the system reads a sector, does what it has to do with the content, and goes back for the next one, and can read every sector of the track in a single revolution. > > From: "Paul Koning" >> Your writeup was aimed at floppy disks, but interleave may also appear >> on hard drives. I don't remember it in reasonably modern systems, but >> it shows up on CDC 6000 systems. > > On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Mike Stein wrote: >> ----- Reply ----- Definitely an issue with IBM PC/XTs and clones; I >> recall testing every new combination of HD and controller for most >> efficient interleave before I delivered to the client. > > 1) Are there any examples newer than PC/XT 5160? > > Although, obviously, completely hidden from the user, is it still used on > anything "modern"? > (Should ALL verbs be changed to past tense?) > > 2) Is it used on anything besides spinning rust? > > 3) Besides all of my examples being floppy, what else should be > changed/corrected in what I wrote? > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 30 16:20:08 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:20:08 -0800 Subject: Apple II+ repair details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <565CCB98.1080300@jwsss.com> On 11/30/2015 12:18 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Speaking of Schrodinger's feline, here are details of my recent Apple II+ > repair for those who might be interested: > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-11-29-more-repairs-to-my-appleII+.htm > > Terry (Tez) Terry, nice dialog on your repair job. On the last comment about the ground pin of the defective rom having a signal, if the apple board is a 4 layer board the ripple from the short to the internal signals from address current, or other signal current being propagated to the ground pin, I suspect the resistance in the pin itself may have provided the needed high resistance to show the signal. Unless you scrap the ground solder protect off and look at the voltage out in the actual ground conductor, I suspect the voltage went down to a very low level very close to the pin. Also where were the decoupling capacitors located with respect to the pin. I suspect that might have gotten rid of more of the voltage, but they were probably nearer the Vcc end of the chip. If you can track down the schematic, it might be that your missing pin doesn't do much unless you perform some special operation, such as some controller addressing or memory operation or such that you don't normally do. It may have also had a fit to the other part of the pin if it was present in the socket to actually work. I didn't hear if you found that, or maybe it fell off when you pulled the chip out? I suspect the short developed from your theory about stress, or perhaps the chip was programmed by a bad programmer. We had a programmer that we found developed a tendency to program eproms and like programmable chips and it destroyed the chips capability to actually reach ground again. The programmer made chips that verified, but when you ran them in a circuit and probed the lines with some sync to the system clock, rather than seeing the signals on the data lines going to zero on the datalines, you could see a hodgpodge of crap at 1.5 to 3 volts which is TTL la-la land. The chips programmed in such a programmer as a properly working Data I/O had clean lines as did reference chips from years earlier. Due to the fact we didn't program many chips, and I found a cheap programmer to hook to a PC, we never found out what broke in our programmer (which was a home design admittedly). But it was build to standard, but had something happen to start killing eproms. So that sort of fault may have been induced in your chip and got bad enough to kill off your Apple some years later. thanks Jim From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Nov 30 16:20:19 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 22:20:19 +0000 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing In-Reply-To: <000801d12bae$794405e0$6bcc11a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF6@mail.bensene.com> <565CAD04.70700@update.uu.se> <000801d12bae$794405e0$6bcc11a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3BE5D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jay West Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 12:34 PM > I would love to see some comparison between ETOS and MULTOS by anyone "in the > know". I'd just like a nice timeshareing system for my 8E that is close to > OS/8 and runnable with the hardware I have. > Alternatively, TSS looks nice, but I am not sure that the full OS was ever > found and is available? Hardware Reqs? There is a TSS/8 system in a .zip file on the SimH software distribution page, consisting of a text file, a paper tape image, and an RF08/RS08 disk image. It's been there since 2005 (an probably earlier, but that's the year on the timestamp). Minimum hardware requirements: PDP-8/I or PDP-8 with KT08/I Time-Sharing Modifications MC8/I-A Memory Extension Control and 4096 words RF08 Disk Control RS08 Disk PT08 Asynchronous Line Interface, Dual (4) PT8/I High-Speed Paper Tape Reader KE8/I Automatic Multiply-Divider CAB 8/IA Option Cabinet Hardware options: The system can have a maximum of 32K core memory. With a minimum of 12K, up to 3 DECdisks can be attached, as well as up to 8 DECtape drives for the use of private DECtape by users. The OS uses the word-addressed nature of the RF08 or DF32 disk drives, which also makes trying to substitute something like an RK05 difficult. I'm told by a former operator of one that TSS/8 will also run on an 8/e, but I don't have independent confirmation that that is so. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 16:30:18 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 23:30:18 +0100 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30 November 2015 at 18:43, Adrian Graham wrote: > All of this fixing I'm currently doing is all Dave's fault, so yes :) [Actual LOL] -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 16:42:27 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:42:27 -0800 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Oversimplified remedial tutorial: >>> Ideally, the system reads a sector, does what it has to do with the >>> content, and goes back for the next one, and can read every sector of the >>> track in a single revolution. >>> >> > From: "Paul Koning" > >> Your writeup was aimed at floppy disks, but interleave may also appear on >> hard drives. I don't remember it in reasonably modern systems, but it >> shows up on CDC 6000 systems. >> > > On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Mike Stein wrote: > >> ----- Reply ----- Definitely an issue with IBM PC/XTs and clones; I >> recall testing every new combination of HD and controller for most >> efficient interleave before I delivered to the client. >> > > 1) Are there any examples newer than PC/XT 5160? > > Although, obviously, completely hidden from the user, is it still used on > anything "modern"? > (Should ALL verbs be changed to past tense?) > > 2) Is it used on anything besides spinning rust? > > Probably outside the domain of the question: The DPS8-M had configurable core memory bank interleave (even/odd addresses); I would hazard a guess that this improved bandwidth on double word read/writes. -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 30 17:13:22 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:13:22 -0800 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <74172D0DB506490781497C9D503DD715@310e2> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <74172D0DB506490781497C9D503DD715@310e2> Message-ID: <565CD812.5080204@sydex.com> On 11/30/2015 02:09 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Nothing wrong with what you wrote that I can see; excellent tutorial > IMO. The issue of "floppy interleave" pretty much went away when memory got cheap enough to buffer an entire track, provided the controller is capable of 1:1 interleave transfers. An A-B comparison with interleaved vs. track buffering is quite enlightening. I don't think that any modern hard drives use interleaved transfer, but I'm not certain. Interleaving core accesses goes *way* back, as does using extra-wide multi-word-at-a-time transfers. Did the IBM 650 interleave drum sectors? --Chuck From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 17:17:44 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:17:44 -0800 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <565CD812.5080204@sydex.com> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <74172D0DB506490781497C9D503DD715@310e2> <565CD812.5080204@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/30/2015 02:09 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > >> Nothing wrong with what you wrote that I can see; excellent tutorial >> IMO. >> > > The issue of "floppy interleave" pretty much went away when memory got > cheap enough to buffer an entire track, provided the controller is capable > of 1:1 interleave transfers. > > An A-B comparison with interleaved vs. track buffering is quite > enlightening. > > I don't think that any modern hard drives use interleaved transfer, but > I'm not certain. > > Interleaving core accesses goes *way* back, as does using extra-wide > multi-word-at-a-time transfers. > > Did the IBM 650 interleave drum sectors? > > One of the drum computers had the address of the next instruction as an operand of the instruction; the programmer would scatter the instructions according to the execution time of the instructions; IIRC "assembler" referred to the process of converting the sequential source to the scattered arrangement. -- Charles From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Nov 30 17:22:12 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 12:22:12 +1300 Subject: Apple II+ repair details In-Reply-To: <565CCB98.1080300@jwsss.com> References: <565CCB98.1080300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Thanks for those comments Jim, Yes, something to think about. Peter Coghlan dropped me a note privately, saying the signal of the F8 ROM could also be caused by the pin not connecting properly. The replacement ROM could have had been sufficiently different in that the legs were at a slightly different angle etc. This would also make sense, as I couldn't understand why their wasn't anything on the earth rail (and why the PSU didn't shut itself off). So, there could be a socket problem still lurking which may come back to haunt me later so I'll check it out at some stage (In fact, I might just replace the socket). I'll have to fish that F8 ROM out of the rubbish bin and try it in another working Apple board. I did put it back in the first board at the time just as a double check and got the same result as before so I concluded it was toast. Terry (Tez) On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 11:20 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 11/30/2015 12:18 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > >> Speaking of Schrodinger's feline, here are details of my recent Apple II+ >> repair for those who might be interested: >> >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-11-29-more-repairs-to-my-appleII+.htm >> >> Terry (Tez) >> > > Terry, > nice dialog on your repair job. > > On the last comment about the ground pin of the defective rom having a > signal, if the apple board is a 4 layer board the ripple from the short to > the internal signals from address current, or other signal current being > propagated to the ground pin, I suspect the resistance in the pin itself > may have provided the needed high resistance to show the signal. Unless > you scrap the ground solder protect off and look at the voltage out in the > actual ground conductor, I suspect the voltage went down to a very low > level very close to the pin. > > Also where were the decoupling capacitors located with respect to the > pin. I suspect that might have gotten rid of more of the voltage, but they > were probably nearer the Vcc end of the chip. > > If you can track down the schematic, it might be that your missing pin > doesn't do much unless you perform some special operation, such as some > controller addressing or memory operation or such that you don't normally > do. It may have also had a fit to the other part of the pin if it was > present in the socket to actually work. I didn't hear if you found that, > or maybe it fell off when you pulled the chip out? > > I suspect the short developed from your theory about stress, or perhaps > the chip was programmed by a bad programmer. We had a programmer that we > found developed a tendency to program eproms and like programmable chips > and it destroyed the chips capability to actually reach ground again. > > The programmer made chips that verified, but when you ran them in a > circuit and probed the lines with some sync to the system clock, rather > than seeing the signals on the data lines going to zero on the datalines, > you could see a hodgpodge of crap at 1.5 to 3 volts which is TTL la-la > land. The chips programmed in such a programmer as a properly working Data > I/O had clean lines as did reference chips from years earlier. > > Due to the fact we didn't program many chips, and I found a cheap > programmer to hook to a PC, we never found out what broke in our programmer > (which was a home design admittedly). But it was build to standard, but > had something happen to start killing eproms. So that sort of fault may > have been induced in your chip and got bad enough to kill off your Apple > some years later. > > thanks > Jim > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 30 17:36:52 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:36:52 -0800 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <74172D0DB506490781497C9D503DD715@310e2> <565CD812.5080204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <565CDD94.1020206@sydex.com> On 11/30/2015 03:17 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > One of the drum computers had the address of the next instruction as > an operand of the instruction; the programmer would scatter the > instructions according to the execution time of the instructions; > IIRC "assembler" referred to the process of converting the sequential > source to the scattered arrangement. I know about the one-plus-one addressing scheme used on the 650--and the SOAP assembler, for that matter. What I was wondering was if the attached RAMAC (305?) used it. Perhaps I should have been more explicit. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 30 17:49:56 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:49:56 -0800 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3BE5D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF6@mail.bensene.com> <565CAD04.70700@update.uu.se> <000801d12bae$794405e0$6bcc11a0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3BE5D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <565CE0A4.3000704@bitsavers.org> On 11/30/15 2:20 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > I'm told by a former operator of one that TSS/8 will also run on an 8/e, but > I don't have independent confirmation that that is so. > It did. The University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee's system was an 8/e with custom mods that let you store files on an RK05 drive. Some of the sources for that system and the source for TSS/8 BASIC are on bitsavers. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Nov 30 17:52:41 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 12:52:41 +1300 Subject: Apple II+ repair details In-Reply-To: References: <565CCB98.1080300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: >Peter Coghlan dropped me a note privately, saying the signal of the F8 ROM could also be caused by the pin not connecting properly. The replacement ROM could have had been sufficiently >different in that the legs were at a slightly different angle etc. This would also make sense, as I couldn't understand why their wasn't anything on the earth rail (and why the PSU didn't shut >itself off). Incidentally, I did check when the machine was off to see if that F8 earth pin did connect to ground. It appeared to, but then I was putting some pressure on the pin when I was taking the measurement. It might have been enough to force a connection in the socket. Terry (Tez) On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Thanks for those comments Jim, Yes, something to think about. > > Peter Coghlan dropped me a note privately, saying the signal of the F8 ROM > could also be caused by the pin not connecting properly. The replacement > ROM could have had been sufficiently different in that the legs were at a > slightly different angle etc. This would also make sense, as I couldn't > understand why their wasn't anything on the earth rail (and why the PSU > didn't shut itself off). > > So, there could be a socket problem still lurking which may come back to > haunt me later so I'll check it out at some stage (In fact, I might just > replace the socket). I'll have to fish that F8 ROM out of the rubbish bin > and try it in another working Apple board. I did put it back in the first > board at the time just as a double check and got the same result as before > so I concluded it was toast. > > Terry (Tez) > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 11:20 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > >> >> On 11/30/2015 12:18 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> >>> Speaking of Schrodinger's feline, here are details of my recent Apple II+ >>> repair for those who might be interested: >>> >>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-11-29-more-repairs-to-my-appleII+.htm >>> >>> Terry (Tez) >>> >> >> Terry, >> nice dialog on your repair job. >> >> On the last comment about the ground pin of the defective rom having a >> signal, if the apple board is a 4 layer board the ripple from the short to >> the internal signals from address current, or other signal current being >> propagated to the ground pin, I suspect the resistance in the pin itself >> may have provided the needed high resistance to show the signal. Unless >> you scrap the ground solder protect off and look at the voltage out in the >> actual ground conductor, I suspect the voltage went down to a very low >> level very close to the pin. >> >> Also where were the decoupling capacitors located with respect to the >> pin. I suspect that might have gotten rid of more of the voltage, but they >> were probably nearer the Vcc end of the chip. >> >> If you can track down the schematic, it might be that your missing pin >> doesn't do much unless you perform some special operation, such as some >> controller addressing or memory operation or such that you don't normally >> do. It may have also had a fit to the other part of the pin if it was >> present in the socket to actually work. I didn't hear if you found that, >> or maybe it fell off when you pulled the chip out? >> >> I suspect the short developed from your theory about stress, or perhaps >> the chip was programmed by a bad programmer. We had a programmer that we >> found developed a tendency to program eproms and like programmable chips >> and it destroyed the chips capability to actually reach ground again. >> >> The programmer made chips that verified, but when you ran them in a >> circuit and probed the lines with some sync to the system clock, rather >> than seeing the signals on the data lines going to zero on the datalines, >> you could see a hodgpodge of crap at 1.5 to 3 volts which is TTL la-la >> land. The chips programmed in such a programmer as a properly working Data >> I/O had clean lines as did reference chips from years earlier. >> >> Due to the fact we didn't program many chips, and I found a cheap >> programmer to hook to a PC, we never found out what broke in our programmer >> (which was a home design admittedly). But it was build to standard, but >> had something happen to start killing eproms. So that sort of fault may >> have been induced in your chip and got bad enough to kill off your Apple >> some years later. >> >> thanks >> Jim >> >> > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 30 18:12:54 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 00:12:54 +0000 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 30/11/2015 22:30, "Liam Proven" wrote: > On 30 November 2015 at 18:43, Adrian Graham > wrote: >> All of this fixing I'm currently doing is all Dave's fault, so yes :) > > > [Actual LOL] When I say 'his fault' I mean his blog has inspired me to get down and dirty with all the dead PETs I appear to have accumulated over the years. The ROM/RAM replacement board he sells is an excellent 40 pin toolkit to help tracing faults in the vast majority of PETs so with the help of Dave and the good folk here I've got life back into my most dead 4032. It's also meant I've read a lot of datasheets to understand various chip behaviours and now I realise why the teachers at school in the late 70s wouldn't let me take electronics back then since I wasn't too hot at maths... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 30 18:32:00 2015 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 00:32:00 +0000 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <565CEA80.6010302@ntlworld.com> On 29/11/15 03:19, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I found mine on eBay, probably around a year ago. I searched for a > long time before I found it. Another hen's tooth that I would like to > find is a magtape end clipper/crimper, but I'm even less likely to > find one since I'm taking an eBay vacation. Good luck! I have a DEC 9-track tape crimper (part # 47-00038). There's one apparently on ebay now for $3.99 which sounds like a steal as the next hit is a website offering one for the low, low price of $126.97. -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 30 18:35:55 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:35:55 -0500 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> > On Nov 30, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> Oversimplified remedial tutorial: >>> Ideally, the system reads a sector, does what it has to do with the content, and goes back for the next one, and can read every sector of the track in a single revolution. > > From: "Paul Koning" >> Your writeup was aimed at floppy disks, but interleave may also appear on hard drives. I don't remember it in reasonably modern systems, but it shows up on CDC 6000 systems. > > On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Mike Stein wrote: >> ----- Reply ----- Definitely an issue with IBM PC/XTs and clones; I recall testing every new combination of HD and controller for most efficient interleave before I delivered to the client. > > 1) Are there any examples newer than PC/XT 5160? > > Although, obviously, completely hidden from the user, is it still used on anything "modern"? > (Should ALL verbs be changed to past tense?) > > 2) Is it used on anything besides spinning rust? Not that I know of. I remember using interleave on SAN systems with (S)ATA drives, back around 2002-2004 or so when ATA and/or SATA did not yet support command queueing. So you could only issue one command per drive, then in the interrupt handler you'd have to handle the completion and issue the next. It turns out you could not do that without interleave, or something analogous. For example, you can leave the sector addressing unchanged but break transfers up into sectors, and issue them in interleaved order. Similarly, when sorting commands offered by applications, you can order them in this manner for the subset of commands for a given track. > 3) Besides all of my examples being floppy, what else should be changed/corrected in what I wrote? The only thing I would change is to mention that this is/was found on hard drives also. paul From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Nov 30 18:54:26 2015 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:54:26 -0500 Subject: PDP 8 Timesharing In-Reply-To: <000801d12bae$794405e0$6bcc11a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029DF6@mail.bensene.com> <565CAD04.70700@update.uu.se> <000801d12bae$794405e0$6bcc11a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <565CEFC2.9070106@heeltoe.com> On 11/30/15 3:34 PM, Jay West wrote: > Alternatively, TSS looks nice, but I am not sure that the full OS was ever found and is available? Hardware Reqs? It's been found. http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Cpus.Pdp8Tss-8 The core o/s can be rebuilt from scratch and run in several forms. I did a (very simple) implementation of the PDP-8/I and the required mods to make it work on an FPGA. It's possible to emulate the behavior of the fixed head disks using an IDE and buffers. I had the pleasure of seeing it run live, many years ago in my misguided youth. I used it a lot and learned a lot from it. Gotta love all the blinking lights. It's an interesting study in both virtualization and operating systems. Well worth the time, IMHO. The UW version builds, but it requires rebuilt binaries of the basic apps. I don't think we've ever recovered all the sources to the userland components, so I could never create a working UW file system. Some day. But yes, TSS/8 exists and can be built and run. -brad From jsw at ieee.org Mon Nov 30 19:06:38 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:06:38 -0600 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> On Nov 30, 2015, at 6:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Nov 30, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>>> Oversimplified remedial tutorial: >>>> Ideally, the system reads a sector, does what it has to do with the content, and goes back for the next one, and can read every sector of the track in a single revolution. >> >> From: "Paul Koning" >>> Your writeup was aimed at floppy disks, but interleave may also appear on hard drives. I don't remember it in reasonably modern systems, but it shows up on CDC 6000 systems. >> >> On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Mike Stein wrote: >>> ----- Reply ----- Definitely an issue with IBM PC/XTs and clones; I recall testing every new combination of HD and controller for most efficient interleave before I delivered to the client. >> >> 1) Are there any examples newer than PC/XT 5160? >> >> Although, obviously, completely hidden from the user, is it still used on anything "modern"? >> (Should ALL verbs be changed to past tense?) >> >> 2) Is it used on anything besides spinning rust? > > Not that I know of. > > I remember using interleave on SAN systems with (S)ATA drives, back around 2002-2004 or so when ATA and/or SATA did not yet support command queueing. So you could only issue one command per drive, then in the interrupt handler you'd have to handle the completion and issue the next. It turns out you could not do that without interleave, or something analogous. For example, you can leave the sector addressing unchanged but break transfers up into sectors, and issue them in interleaved order. Similarly, when sorting commands offered by applications, you can order them in this manner for the subset of commands for a given track. > >> 3) Besides all of my examples being floppy, what else should be changed/corrected in what I wrote? > > The only thing I would change is to mention that this is/was found on hard drives also. > > paul > The TU58 was a block addressable using a cassette tape drive famously(?) called DECtape II. File placement on the two different linear tracks was a necessary art, especially if you were booting RT11 regularly. This helped it to stream or not rewind in sensitive places. The 1:2 interleave was ?built-in? to the block formatting (see EK-0TU58-UG-001_TU58_DECtape_II_Users_Guide_Oct78.pdf). I used a late model device, pulling data from clinical diagnostic computers without too many challenges. However, compared to reliability of DECtape*, DECtape iI was not in the same class IMHO. Jerry *Yes - I skipped over DECtape. I?ve leave that one to the many experts on the list. From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 30 19:12:28 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 02:12:28 +0100 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> Message-ID: <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-01 02:06, Jerry Weiss wrote: > On Nov 30, 2015, at 6:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>>> Oversimplified remedial tutorial: >>>>> Ideally, the system reads a sector, does what it has to do with the content, and goes back for the next one, and can read every sector of the track in a single revolution. >>> >>> From: "Paul Koning" >>>> Your writeup was aimed at floppy disks, but interleave may also appear on hard drives. I don't remember it in reasonably modern systems, but it shows up on CDC 6000 systems. >>> >>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Mike Stein wrote: >>>> ----- Reply ----- Definitely an issue with IBM PC/XTs and clones; I recall testing every new combination of HD and controller for most efficient interleave before I delivered to the client. >>> >>> 1) Are there any examples newer than PC/XT 5160? >>> >>> Although, obviously, completely hidden from the user, is it still used on anything "modern"? >>> (Should ALL verbs be changed to past tense?) >>> >>> 2) Is it used on anything besides spinning rust? >> >> Not that I know of. >> >> I remember using interleave on SAN systems with (S)ATA drives, back around 2002-2004 or so when ATA and/or SATA did not yet support command queueing. So you could only issue one command per drive, then in the interrupt handler you'd have to handle the completion and issue the next. It turns out you could not do that without interleave, or something analogous. For example, you can leave the sector addressing unchanged but break transfers up into sectors, and issue them in interleaved order. Similarly, when sorting commands offered by applications, you can order them in this manner for the subset of commands for a given track. >> >>> 3) Besides all of my examples being floppy, what else should be changed/corrected in what I wrote? >> >> The only thing I would change is to mention that this is/was found on hard drives also. >> >> paul >> > > The TU58 was a block addressable using a cassette tape drive famously(?) called DECtape II. File placement on the two different linear tracks was a necessary art, especially if you were booting RT11 regularly. This helped it to stream or not rewind in sensitive places. The 1:2 interleave was ?built-in? to the block formatting (see EK-0TU58-UG-001_TU58_DECtape_II_Users_Guide_Oct78.pdf). I wasn't aware that it did any block interleaving. But yes, file placement was extremely important. Are you sure it interleaved blocks? > I used a late model device, pulling data from clinical diagnostic computers without too many challenges. However, compared to reliability of DECtape*, DECtape iI was not in the same class IMHO. > > Jerry > > *Yes - I skipped over DECtape. I?ve leave that one to the many experts on the list. DECtape never did interleaving that I know of. But there too, file placement was very important. I don't think it would even work if you interleaved the blocks, as the tape driver normally figured out which was to spool depending on the current block at the head, and which block you wanted to get to. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 30 19:19:52 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 20:19:52 -0500 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <19F290D6-9FAA-4C87-A2C7-0ACDF88E6C52@comcast.net> > On Nov 30, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > ... > DECtape never did interleaving that I know of. Sure it does. The DOS format, which was adopted by RSTS, has 4 way interleaving. If you write a 500 block file, it writes every 4th block forward, then fills in one set of gaps reverse, then forward and backward again, resulting in finally all blocks used. This is a software function, of course, and actually implemented in the file system, but it's certainly interleaving. It doesn't apply to contiguous files (supported in DOS but not RSTS), which is why RSTS V4A sysgen with output to DECtape took so long -- writing a contiguous CIL file, in block order, madly seeking back & forth. The reason for the interleaving on DECtape is the start/stop time. To run non-interleaved at high speed you have to leave the tape running (no "stop" commands) and you have to issue the next command quickly. RT-11 could do that; DOS could not. paul From jsw at ieee.org Mon Nov 30 19:20:26 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:20:26 -0600 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <52DAF9B0-C3CE-41B9-86B1-ADB227E05B98@ieee.org> Jerry Weiss jsw at ieee.org > On Nov 30, 2015, at 7:12 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-12-01 02:06, Jerry Weiss wrote: >> >> >> The TU58 was a block addressable using a cassette tape drive famously(?) called DECtape II. File placement on the two different linear tracks was a necessary art, especially if you were booting RT11 regularly. This helped it to stream or not rewind in sensitive places. The 1:2 interleave was ?built-in? to the block formatting (see EK-0TU58-UG-001_TU58_DECtape_II_Users_Guide_Oct78.pdf). > > I wasn't aware that it did any block interleaving. But yes, file placement was extremely important. Are you sure it interleaved blocks? See page 1-4 "Two tracks, each containing 1024 individually numbered, firmware-interleaved "records." Firmware manipulates 4 records at each operation to form 512-byte blocks" Also figure 1-5. Not only interwoven, but reversed for bi-directional r/w I believe. Jerry From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 30 19:39:02 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 02:39:02 +0100 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <19F290D6-9FAA-4C87-A2C7-0ACDF88E6C52@comcast.net> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> <19F290D6-9FAA-4C87-A2C7-0ACDF88E6C52@comcast.net> Message-ID: <565CFA36.4090004@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-01 02:19, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 30, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> ... >> DECtape never did interleaving that I know of. > > Sure it does. The DOS format, which was adopted by RSTS, has 4 way interleaving. If you write a 500 block file, it writes every 4th block forward, then fills in one set of gaps reverse, then forward and backward again, resulting in finally all blocks used. > > This is a software function, of course, and actually implemented in the file system, but it's certainly interleaving. It doesn't apply to contiguous files (supported in DOS but not RSTS), which is why RSTS V4A sysgen with output to DECtape took so long -- writing a contiguous CIL file, in block order, madly seeking back & forth. Oh. You mean that the software decided to use blocks 0,4,8,12,... Yes, that would be doable. I was thinking of interleaving at the format level. But such interleaving means the software have to keep rather good track of things... > The reason for the interleaving on DECtape is the start/stop time. To run non-interleaved at high speed you have to leave the tape running (no "stop" commands) and you have to issue the next command quickly. RT-11 could do that; DOS could not. Yes. Having run a PDP-8 booted from DECtape, I've seen plenty of rocking back and forth to start/stop. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Nov 30 20:14:54 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:14:54 -0500 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <19F290D6-9FAA-4C87-A2C7-0ACDF88E6C52@comcast.net> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> <19F290D6-9FAA-4C87-A2C7-0ACDF88E6C52@comcast.net> Message-ID: <565D029E.1020602@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: >The reason for the interleaving on DECtape is the start/stop time. To run non-interleaved at high speed you have to leave the tape running (no "stop" commands) and you have to issue the next command quickly. RT-11 could do that; DOS could not. > When I attempted to evaluate how well a backup to tape would work, I always included the verify portion to make sure that the tape had been written correctly in addition to making sure that the tape could also be read. For the PDP-11/83 under RT-11, there were essentially two choices: TK50 and TK70. Aside from the advantage that the TK70 had over the TK50 with respect to the capacity - (if I remember correctly) about 256 MB vs 32 MB, the other problem was that it was found to be impossible to steam the TK50 during a BUP verify operation. So in addition to the TK70 being much faster in the first place relative to the TK50, the verify operation was just not feasible. Somehow, the PDP-11/83 could read both the tape and the disk drive, then compare the two current buffers while the alternate buffers were being read, using, I presume, DMA requests to the two controllers to transfer the data to the next pair of buffers. Of course, RT-11 had special EMT requests to initiate the read requests and then go away and do something else. Obviously, I could have copied the BUP backup to a scratch disk and verified the scratch disk against the original disk and saved a great deal of time if the TK50 had been the only option. Jerome Fine From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 20:14:09 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:14:09 -0500 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 Message-ID: I have an 11/05 with ASR 33 for I/O. I am using the M9970 console card to make the connection. I have loaded papertape BASIC into core (16K) and it boots up from 000 000 to the TTY, I can type in programs, etc. Question - I'd like to switch over to a VT 50 in 20ma mode. Not sure if this is possible based on what I read here: http://www.retrocmp.com/how-tos/interfacing-to-a-pdp-1105/144-interfacing-with-a-pdp-1105-sorting-the-wires Anyone successfully connect a VT 50 or 52 to a 11/05 or 11/10 over to the EIN M7856 for printer and typewriter only, leaving the M9970 for program i/o to save and load programs? -- Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 21:13:08 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 22:13:08 -0500 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2015 9:14 PM, "william degnan" wrote: > > I have an 11/05 with ASR 33 for I/O. I am using the M9970 console card to make the connection. I have loaded papertape BASIC into core (16K) and it boots up from 000 000 to the TTY, I can type in programs, etc. > > Question - I'd like to switch over to a VT 50 in 20ma mode. Not sure if this is possible based on what I read here: > > http://www.retrocmp.com/how-tos/interfacing-to-a-pdp-1105/144-interfacing-with-a-pdp-1105-sorting-the-wires To clarify, I meant I don't think you can interface with the vt50 with loop 20ma, so instead I wanted to split the IO between the TTY for program storage and vt50 using M7856 serial card. I am guessing this is the way to go, but I have never done this before. Good plan? Anyone have this kind of set up now? Bill