From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 1 00:02:46 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 06:02:46 +0000 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > As a guess, something is either twice as small, or there twice as many of them. The RK05F has a pair of heads like an RK05. It has twice as many cylinders, which are logically addressed as 2 physical drives. So the optical scale in the linear positioner (which is not part of the head) is different, and there are some minor differences to the drive logic boards. The heads look very similar. The mounting arms/springs are the same. The head 'buttons' are similar-looking white ceramic disks. Yes, if you compare them, the core width for the -F is narrower, but to recognise the heads like that you either know them very well or have a pile to sort through and can see both types next to each other. There are no obvious coloured dots on the springs, or part numbers, or anything like that. But there is one thing that is different. OK, I'll give a hint. There is no reason it has to be different, it is done for identification. And it is a colour. > Either way, I could really use both -:) Heads or drives? -tony From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 1 03:10:14 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 10:10:14 +0100 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: <54A48894.90002@update.uu.se> References: <54A48894.90002@update.uu.se> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2015 12:36 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: RK05 classic computing trivia question On 2014-12-31 20:30, tony duell wrote: > Based on some boxes of stuff I unpacked today... > > How could you quickly distinguish an RK05F spare head from a normal RK05 > spare head? I wasn't even aware that there were any differences. But I guess there are, as you ask. It's been close to 30 years since I touched an RK05F... But the disk being fixed was the thing I knew. Is the optical thingy that tells the head movement a part of the head? ISTR that the doubling of the number of tracks was already reached by fixing the cartridge on those pins and that the positioning sensor (glass with lines) already had sufficient precision. Are the 05/f heads recognized by a different color of the connector housing or is that the case for RL01 / RL02 heads? - Henk, PA8PDP From aswood at t-online.de Thu Jan 1 05:24:40 2015 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2015 12:24:40 +0100 Subject: OpenGenera Message-ID: <1Y6drs-3dkbNw0@fwd41.aul.t-online.de> Shouldn't OpenGenera now free of copyright terms? I seem to remember 2015 was the year! -- Andreas From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jan 1 09:07:35 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2015 16:07:35 +0100 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: References: <54A48894.90002@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54A562B7.4090201@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-01 05:00, Paul Anderson wrote: > The differences are the door, which doesn't really mater, the heads, the > linear positional, and reformat the pack. most regular packs can be > reformatted. There are 2 boards from the A which are interchangeable with > the F (most of the newer drives have them), and they have a few dip > switches that need to be changed. I might be misremembering, but I seem to remember the RK05F that I played with had the same door, except it had been fixed in place. > Another neat option which i don't remember the part #, if the RK05 front > panel with the TU56 type rotary switches to change the drive ID # on the > fly. I think I kept a few for myself. I have one. The front side identifies it as a RK05J if I remember right. But I don't know what part # for the conversion. Johnny > > On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2014-12-31 20:30, tony duell wrote: >> >>> Based on some boxes of stuff I unpacked today... >>> >>> How could you quickly distinguish an RK05F spare head from a normal RK05 >>> spare head? >>> >> >> I wasn't even aware that there were any differences. But I guess there >> are, as you ask. >> It's been close to 30 years since I touched an RK05F... >> >> But the disk being fixed was the thing I knew. Is the optical thingy that >> tells the head movement a part of the head? >> >> Johnny >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >> -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 1 09:35:07 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:35:07 -0800 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: <54A562B7.4090201@update.uu.se> References: <54A48894.90002@update.uu.se> <54A562B7.4090201@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54A5692B.5030409@bitsavers.org> On 1/1/15 7:07 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I have one. The front side identifies it as a RK05J if I remember right. But I don't know what part # for the conversion. > RK05-H bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/RK05-H_EngrDrws_Apr77 From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jan 1 09:37:44 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2015 16:37:44 +0100 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: <54A5692B.5030409@bitsavers.org> References: <54A48894.90002@update.uu.se> <54A562B7.4090201@update.uu.se> <54A5692B.5030409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54A569C8.90601@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-01 16:35, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/1/15 7:07 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> I have one. The front side identifies it as a RK05J if I remember >> right. But I don't know what part # for the conversion. >> > > RK05-H > > bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/RK05-H_EngrDrws_Apr77 Path was missing a rk05 in there, but I noticed there are also RK05J drawings from 78 in there. Seems more likely I have that version. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 12:35:59 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2015 12:35:59 -0600 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A5938F.9090309@gmail.com> On 12/31/2014 01:30 PM, tony duell wrote: > Based on some boxes of stuff I unpacked today... > > How could you quickly distinguish an RK05F spare head from a normal RK05 spare head? Ask Tony? ;) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 1 12:36:50 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 10:36:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: <54A5938F.9090309@gmail.com> References: <54A5938F.9090309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150101103616.Y55832@shell.lmi.net> > How could you quickly distinguish an RK05F spare head from a normal RK05 spare head? Is there a difference in sound if you install the other one? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 1 12:54:49 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 18:54:49 +0000 Subject: RK05 classic computing trivia question In-Reply-To: References: <54A48894.90002@update.uu.se>, Message-ID: > Are the 05/f heads recognized by a different color of the connector > housing or is that the case for RL01 / RL02 heads? You got it. RK05F heads have blue connrector housings, normal RK05 heads have white. This seems to follow an unwritten (?) DEC convention that 'blue' means 'higher density' -- think of the handles on RL02 and RK07 packs. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 1 21:59:51 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2015 19:59:51 -0800 Subject: 64700A Message-ID: <54A617B7.9090901@bitsavers.org> Today's project was a teardown and photo shoot of a 64700A, which isn't of much practical use with a 68302 pod on it, and even after 10 years of ignoring them the prices are still too high and the software to use them unobtanium. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/64700/64700A/photos/ The lack of documentation for the whole 64700 family is pretty sad. I scraped the Agilent web site back in 2000 and there wasn't much there on the A series back then. I also pulled most of my Applied Microsystems stuff out and that will be tomorrow's project. From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 23:17:08 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 23:17:08 -0600 Subject: Camiacs Model V document V0.3 update Message-ID: Camiacs RS-232 / CL converter Model V document - Updated, with corrections. Your comments / additions / etc are of course requested. -------------- next part -------------- Camiacs Model V RS-232 - Current Loop converter info-sheet - Ver. 0.3 - 01-JAN-2014 (c) 2014 legendre at nerp.net - This document may be freely redistributed under the terms of the current GNU/GPL license. Circuit board "RS232/CL MODEL 5 CAM 25-116A" I. External ports ----------------- A. RS-232 Port (DB25-F) pinout information: 2 - TXD 3 - RXD 5 - CTS * 6 - DSR * 7 - GND 8 - DCD / RLSD * 1, 4, 9-25 - N/C (* = Manually set active / inactive with internal jumper. Default = active. See end notes for further information.) B. Current Loop Port (DB25-F) pinout information: 1 - Rx+ 2 - Rx- 3 - Tx+ 4 - Tx- C. AC mains power Voltage - 117V AC via IEC connector on rear panel Red LED power indicator on front panel Utility sockets - Two (2) on rear panel, fused. Power consumption - 5W (40mA) average, not including utility socket load II. Internal features --------------------- A. Fuse information: Buss MDX 5A / 250V - Bottom of PCB B. LED information: LED1 - Tx loop activity LED2 - Rx loop activity Note: Apparent LED brightness is proportional to magnitude of loop current & data rate. Higher current level and/or lower data rate = higher relative brightness. B. Loop current power supplies (24V / 55mA short-circuit): Jumper set T1-T9 - Tx loop power T2-T3, T4-T5, T6-T7 = Tx Active (Default) T1-T2, T3-T4, T5-T6 = Tx Passive Jumper set R1-R9 - Rx loop power R2-R3, R4-R5, R6-R7 = Rx Active R1-R2, R3-R4, R7-R8 = Rx Passive (Default) III. Additional Notes --------------------- 1) While this converter is intended for 20mA current loop operation, the DC power supply is configured for 24V DC @ 55mA short-circuit. For short runs, use an appropraite current-limiting resistor in the loop(s) to attenuate current to 20mA nominal. 750R @ 1/2W is suggested for short runs; 470R - 1K should be acceptable. 2) Being that the current loop protocol does not support any form of hardware flow control, as does the RS-232 protocol, the various jumper settings for the CTS, DSR and DCD / RLSD lines are only present to satisfy the requirements of the RS-232 device. They have no bearing on the activity or status of the current loop Rx / Tx lines, where only software flow control (XON / XOFF) may be implemented. 3) A simple loopback test can be made as follows: On the current loop port, connect Pins 1&3 with a 750R 1/2W, and Pins 3&4 with a second 750R 1/2W. Any data sent to the RS-232 port will be echoed back to the sending device. When performing a loopback test, be sure to de-select "Local echo" on the RS-232 side, lest there be any confusion (false positive). However, it is allowable and may be necessary to select "Add linefeed" on the RS-232 side. 4) The 6-pos. jumper header near the edge of the board, adjacent to D1 and D2, is for spare jumper storage only. This header is not connected to the circuitry. 5) IC 1 is the Tx opto-coupler, IC 2 is the Rx opto-coupler. 6) There is a 7-pos. jumper header, fitted with two jumpers, on the edge of the board adjacent to IC 5. The purpose of this header has not presently been discovered, but it appears to select which outputs from the MC1489A are delivered to the rest of the circuitry. The default settings are 2-3 and 6-7, with pin 1 being closest to the rear of the chassis. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 00:23:14 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 01:23:14 -0500 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? Message-ID: Happy New Year, all! Has anyone here gone through the process of reparing leaky NiCd damage to an A4000 motherboard? I _thought_ I had removed the battery some time ago but puttering around today, I cracked open the case to find the battery still there and some damage around U891 (a 74F245) and U850 (Bank 3 DIMM socket). I have washed off the residue but I may have to pull a DIMM socket to get access to the vias under it. I know the general process, but I'm curious if anyone has done this specifically to an A4000 board and has any tips. As I said, I'm probably going to have to pull the DIMM socket to get to all the damage. Barring success from running a dozen or so repair wires, would anyone happen to have a lead on an A4000 motherboard? Everything else in the machine should be good, the Daughter Card, the CPU card, etc... It's my only A4000, so I'd like to get it back up and running, or replace it if necessary. Thanks for any tips, -ethan From charles at uniwho.com Fri Jan 2 03:06:48 2015 From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 04:06:48 -0500 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6ED64DBC-D76C-445D-9252-B33C65C4A6E3@uniwho.com> well change all the Elertrolytics first. They are all toast. clean it up really good, and try it. it might still work anyways. Charles MacCaps.com ps: make sure to change the caps on the cpu card as well. I re-cap many of these for people. On Jan 2, 2015, at 1:23 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Happy New Year, all! > > Has anyone here gone through the process of reparing leaky NiCd damage > to an A4000 motherboard? I _thought_ I had removed the battery some > time ago but puttering around today, I cracked open the case to find > the battery still there and some damage around U891 (a 74F245) and > U850 (Bank 3 DIMM socket). I have washed off the residue but I may > have to pull a DIMM socket to get access to the vias under it. > > I know the general process, but I'm curious if anyone has done this > specifically to an A4000 board and has any tips. As I said, I'm > probably going to have to pull the DIMM socket to get to all the > damage. > > Barring success from running a dozen or so repair wires, would anyone > happen to have a lead on an A4000 motherboard? Everything else in the > machine should be good, the Daughter Card, the CPU card, etc... > > It's my only A4000, so I'd like to get it back up and running, or > replace it if necessary. > > Thanks for any tips, > > -ethan From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jan 2 03:36:19 2015 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 09:36:19 +0000 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150102093619.GA5284@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Jan 02, 2015 at 01:23:14AM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: [...] You didn't say what kind of A4000, but I'm assuming you are referring to the Amiga, as this is a known problem. > I know the general process, but I'm curious if anyone has done this > specifically to an A4000 board and has any tips. As I said, I'm probably > going to have to pull the DIMM socket to get to all the damage. I've never had much luck with this kind of repair, but the A4000 repair always sounded particularly difficult and liable to fail. Still, if you've got the right tools and are patient and careful, you won't be worse off than if you didn't bother at all. > Barring success from running a dozen or so repair wires, would anyone happen > to have a lead on an A4000 motherboard? Everything else in the machine > should be good, the Daughter Card, the CPU card, etc... I've got a surplus spare from a part-stripped carcass I bought back in 2001 to try and clear a fault in my own A4000. However, a motherboard swap failed to clear the fault I had. What this would imply is that both boards are OK since the failure was sufficiently bizarre that it was unlikely that both would fail identically, but since I've not conclusively seen either of them work for nearly two decades, I wouldn't like to offer any sort of guarantee. These boards also turn up on eBay in the USA, which might be a better bet. As far as I can tell, the same boards were used in both NTSC and PAL machines and a jumper configures the video standard. (I sometimes re-jumpered mine for NTSC to reduce display flicker.) From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jan 2 03:36:19 2015 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 09:36:19 +0000 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150102093619.GA5284@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Jan 02, 2015 at 01:23:14AM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: [...] You didn't say what kind of A4000, but I'm assuming you are referring to the Amiga, as this is a known problem. > I know the general process, but I'm curious if anyone has done this > specifically to an A4000 board and has any tips. As I said, I'm probably > going to have to pull the DIMM socket to get to all the damage. I've never had much luck with this kind of repair, but the A4000 repair always sounded particularly difficult and liable to fail. Still, if you've got the right tools and are patient and careful, you won't be worse off than if you didn't bother at all. > Barring success from running a dozen or so repair wires, would anyone happen > to have a lead on an A4000 motherboard? Everything else in the machine > should be good, the Daughter Card, the CPU card, etc... I've got a surplus spare from a part-stripped carcass I bought back in 2001 to try and clear a fault in my own A4000. However, a motherboard swap failed to clear the fault I had. What this would imply is that both boards are OK since the failure was sufficiently bizarre that it was unlikely that both would fail identically, but since I've not conclusively seen either of them work for nearly two decades, I wouldn't like to offer any sort of guarantee. These boards also turn up on eBay in the USA, which might be a better bet. As far as I can tell, the same boards were used in both NTSC and PAL machines and a jumper configures the video standard. (I sometimes re-jumpered mine for NTSC to reduce display flicker.) From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jan 2 03:40:23 2015 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 09:40:23 +0000 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: <6ED64DBC-D76C-445D-9252-B33C65C4A6E3@uniwho.com> References: <6ED64DBC-D76C-445D-9252-B33C65C4A6E3@uniwho.com> Message-ID: <20150102094023.GB5284@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Jan 02, 2015 at 04:06:48AM -0500, Charles wrote: [...] > make sure to change the caps on the cpu card as well. > I re-cap many of these for people. Is this a specific known problem with the A3640 board, or just a prophylactic fix-all for all machines of that age? It would perhaps explain the behaviour I'm seeing. From charles at uniwho.com Fri Jan 2 03:43:56 2015 From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 04:43:56 -0500 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: <20150102094023.GB5284@mooli.org.uk> References: <6ED64DBC-D76C-445D-9252-B33C65C4A6E3@uniwho.com> <20150102094023.GB5284@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <26696C29-7395-4E89-AC5F-1C0EB2D6913A@uniwho.com> yes and yes :-) make sure to read this? some of them are on there backwards from the factory. http://amiga.serveftp.net/A3640_capacitor.html On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:40 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Jan 02, 2015 at 04:06:48AM -0500, Charles wrote: > [...] >> make sure to change the caps on the cpu card as well. >> I re-cap many of these for people. > > Is this a specific known problem with the A3640 board, or just a prophylactic > fix-all for all machines of that age? It would perhaps explain the behaviour > I'm seeing. > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 04:31:23 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 10:31:23 -0000 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: <20150102094023.GB5284@mooli.org.uk> References: <6ED64DBC-D76C-445D-9252-B33C65C4A6E3@uniwho.com> <20150102094023.GB5284@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <01b701d02677$41e86f60$c5b94e20$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Corlett > Sent: 02 January 2015 09:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? > > On Fri, Jan 02, 2015 at 04:06:48AM -0500, Charles wrote: > [...] > > make sure to change the caps on the cpu card as well. > > I re-cap many of these for people. > > Is this a specific known problem with the A3640 board, or just a prophylactic > fix-all for all machines of that age? It would perhaps explain the behaviour > I'm seeing. Electrolytic and Tantalum Capacitors seem to be problematic on machines of a wide range of ages. Sometimes it is obvious they have failed as the caps have domed tops. Some times its not so obvious I would recommend a low-voltage ESR meter that uses less than 0.6v so it doesn't turn on any diodes. Dave G4UGM From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 04:43:07 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 08:43:07 -0200 Subject: 64700A In-Reply-To: <54A617B7.9090901@bitsavers.org> References: <54A617B7.9090901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hey, I had one of these year ago! unfortunately never used for lack of software :( On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 1:59 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Today's project was a teardown and photo shoot of a 64700A, which isn't of > much > practical use with a 68302 pod on it, and even after 10 years of ignoring > them > the prices are still too high and the software to use them unobtanium. > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/64700/64700A/photos/ > > The lack of documentation for the whole 64700 family is pretty sad. I > scraped the > Agilent web site back in 2000 and there wasn't much there on the A series > back then. > > I also pulled most of my Applied Microsystems stuff out and that will be > tomorrow's > project. > > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 04:39:42 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 08:39:42 -0200 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: <20150102093619.GA5284@mooli.org.uk> References: <20150102093619.GA5284@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: I've repaired many...I usually take off all the components of the affected area, wash it with vinegar (!) to neutralize the electrolyte, wash again with alchool or MEK (Metil-Etil-Ketone, cancerous and very dangerous solvent) and rebuild the traces with very thin (awg 30) wire-wrap wire. It always works (for me) :) I've spent someday 6 hours to recover a board. In Brazil it is worth it! good luck! On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Jan 02, 2015 at 01:23:14AM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > [...] > > You didn't say what kind of A4000, but I'm assuming you are referring to > the > Amiga, as this is a known problem. > > > I know the general process, but I'm curious if anyone has done this > > specifically to an A4000 board and has any tips. As I said, I'm probably > > going to have to pull the DIMM socket to get to all the damage. > > I've never had much luck with this kind of repair, but the A4000 repair > always > sounded particularly difficult and liable to fail. Still, if you've got > the > right tools and are patient and careful, you won't be worse off than if you > didn't bother at all. > > > Barring success from running a dozen or so repair wires, would anyone > happen > > to have a lead on an A4000 motherboard? Everything else in the machine > > should be good, the Daughter Card, the CPU card, etc... > > I've got a surplus spare from a part-stripped carcass I bought back in > 2001 to > try and clear a fault in my own A4000. However, a motherboard swap failed > to > clear the fault I had. What this would imply is that both boards are OK > since > the failure was sufficiently bizarre that it was unlikely that both would > fail > identically, but since I've not conclusively seen either of them work for > nearly two decades, I wouldn't like to offer any sort of guarantee. > > These boards also turn up on eBay in the USA, which might be a better > bet. As > far as I can tell, the same boards were used in both NTSC and PAL machines > and > a jumper configures the video standard. (I sometimes re-jumpered mine for > NTSC > to reduce display flicker.) > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 04:39:42 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 08:39:42 -0200 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: <20150102093619.GA5284@mooli.org.uk> References: <20150102093619.GA5284@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: I've repaired many...I usually take off all the components of the affected area, wash it with vinegar (!) to neutralize the electrolyte, wash again with alchool or MEK (Metil-Etil-Ketone, cancerous and very dangerous solvent) and rebuild the traces with very thin (awg 30) wire-wrap wire. It always works (for me) :) I've spent someday 6 hours to recover a board. In Brazil it is worth it! good luck! On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Jan 02, 2015 at 01:23:14AM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > [...] > > You didn't say what kind of A4000, but I'm assuming you are referring to > the > Amiga, as this is a known problem. > > > I know the general process, but I'm curious if anyone has done this > > specifically to an A4000 board and has any tips. As I said, I'm probably > > going to have to pull the DIMM socket to get to all the damage. > > I've never had much luck with this kind of repair, but the A4000 repair > always > sounded particularly difficult and liable to fail. Still, if you've got > the > right tools and are patient and careful, you won't be worse off than if you > didn't bother at all. > > > Barring success from running a dozen or so repair wires, would anyone > happen > > to have a lead on an A4000 motherboard? Everything else in the machine > > should be good, the Daughter Card, the CPU card, etc... > > I've got a surplus spare from a part-stripped carcass I bought back in > 2001 to > try and clear a fault in my own A4000. However, a motherboard swap failed > to > clear the fault I had. What this would imply is that both boards are OK > since > the failure was sufficiently bizarre that it was unlikely that both would > fail > identically, but since I've not conclusively seen either of them work for > nearly two decades, I wouldn't like to offer any sort of guarantee. > > These boards also turn up on eBay in the USA, which might be a better > bet. As > far as I can tell, the same boards were used in both NTSC and PAL machines > and > a jumper configures the video standard. (I sometimes re-jumpered mine for > NTSC > to reduce display flicker.) > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 06:39:32 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 07:39:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jan 2015, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Has anyone here gone through the process of reparing leaky NiCd damage > to an A4000 motherboard? I _thought_ I had removed the battery some > time ago but puttering around today, I cracked open the case to find > the battery still there and some damage around U891 (a 74F245) and > U850 (Bank 3 DIMM socket). I have washed off the residue but I may > have to pull a DIMM socket to get access to the vias under it. > > I know the general process, but I'm curious if anyone has done this > specifically to an A4000 board and has any tips. As I said, I'm > probably going to have to pull the DIMM socket to get to all the > damage. Went through this entire process on my A4000 a couple of years back. In my case there was damage to traces underneath several of the adjacent chips and the clock chip was dead to boot. I would suggest soaking the board overnight in dilute vinegar in addition to washing, since the alkaline crud gets into via holes where washing won't dislodge it. If traces are not already eaten, this may eliminate the need to remove the DIMM sockets. I ended up removing all the chips in the immdiate vicinity of the battery and piecing things back together with 30g wire. This did include threading through a few of the vias. One random bit of advice: The leaked crud tends to dissolve the solder mask on the circuit board and makes hot-air reflow a bit touch and go. The solder will migrate underneath the chip rather than flowing around the legs. After two unsuccesful rounds with the reflow tool (shorted traces underneath) I ended up hand-soldering the smaller parts. At the time I did this work, the Ricoh clock chip was still available from Amigakit in the UK. Unfortunately its function goes beyond simple timekeeping. It has some involvement in the power-up sequence and the system won't function with it. There may be a way to mod around this, but I simply replaced the chip. Steve -- From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 07:18:14 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 11:18:14 -0200 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: the chip isn't hard to come by, Steve. You can find it on ebay. On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Fri, 2 Jan 2015, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Has anyone here gone through the process of reparing leaky NiCd damage >> to an A4000 motherboard? I _thought_ I had removed the battery some >> time ago but puttering around today, I cracked open the case to find >> the battery still there and some damage around U891 (a 74F245) and >> U850 (Bank 3 DIMM socket). I have washed off the residue but I may >> have to pull a DIMM socket to get access to the vias under it. >> >> I know the general process, but I'm curious if anyone has done this >> specifically to an A4000 board and has any tips. As I said, I'm >> probably going to have to pull the DIMM socket to get to all the >> damage. >> > > Went through this entire process on my A4000 a couple of years back. In my > case there was damage to traces underneath several of the adjacent chips > and the clock chip was dead to boot. I would suggest soaking the board > overnight in dilute vinegar in addition to washing, since the alkaline crud > gets into via holes where washing won't dislodge it. If traces are not > already eaten, this may eliminate the need to remove the DIMM sockets. > > I ended up removing all the chips in the immdiate vicinity of the battery > and piecing things back together with 30g wire. This did include threading > through a few of the vias. One random bit of advice: The leaked crud > tends to dissolve the solder mask on the circuit board and makes hot-air > reflow a bit touch and go. The solder will migrate underneath the chip > rather than flowing around the legs. After two unsuccesful rounds with the > reflow tool (shorted traces underneath) I ended up hand-soldering the > smaller parts. > > At the time I did this work, the Ricoh clock chip was still available from > Amigakit in the UK. Unfortunately its function goes beyond simple > timekeeping. It has some involvement in the power-up sequence and the > system won't function with it. There may be a way to mod around this, but > I simply replaced the chip. > > Steve > > > > -- > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 2 09:38:27 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2015 07:38:27 -0800 Subject: 64700A In-Reply-To: References: <54A617B7.9090901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54A6BB73.6010208@bitsavers.org> On 1/2/15 2:43 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Hey, I had one of these year ago! unfortunately never used for lack of > software :( > From digging around B3761-14504 is the CD for the HP-UX software. For which version of the hardware, though, I don't know. It would be nice to have a 64700B with a 68030 pod. It is possible to run them from the serial interface on the back. The vendors of ICE systems really wanted you to run them through the PC or Unix interfaces. I didn't realize until this week that the Huntsville Microsystems 68K ICE that I have had a command prompt. I spotted the manual for it on the net, so that should be here this week, which I'll scan and upload. Digging around this morning, I found two more ES 1800 emulators for the 68020 and 68332 and they even still had the processor pods attached. I found a really early version of the ES 1800 control processor in my pile of boards that has the memory on a separate card, which makes tracing out what's going on easier. The edge connectors are Multibus form factor, it looks like the emulation bus is on the P1 connector and the control bus on P2. There is an emulation board, overlay RAM and trace board on the P1, which all also connect to P2. The emulation boards have the CPU specific 6809 code on them, and a smaller EPROM that gets mapped to the target. The EL 1800 units replaced the 6809 with a 68302 and made SCSI and Ethernet standard. I wonder if they emulate the 6809 to run the emulator boards? A bunch of new pictures of the Applied Microsystems boards should be up on the bitsavers mirrors now. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jan 2 15:34:28 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2015 21:34:28 +0000 (WET) Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 02 Jan 2015 07:39:32 -0500 (EST)" References: Message-ID: <01PGUW8LO146002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> > > Went through this entire process on my A4000 a couple of years back. In my > case there was damage to traces underneath several of the adjacent chips > and the clock chip was dead to boot. I would suggest soaking the board > overnight in dilute vinegar in addition to washing, since the alkaline > crud gets into via holes where washing won't dislodge it. If traces are > not already eaten, this may eliminate the need to remove the DIMM sockets. > I've often seen it suggested that acid or alkali contamination should be neutralised somehow. In theory it seems like the thing to do but I've always had doubts about how successfully this can be done and whether the cure might do further damage on top of the original contamination. In practice, I can't see how it would be possible to get the concentration of neutralising agent even approximately right and how it would be possible to cover all the contaminated areas and yet avoid getting it on non-contaminated areas and maybe causing new damage there. And then there's the wondering whether the resulting wet salts will do different or worse damage than the original contamination before they are washed off and whether they might be dangerous to people? Unusally for this list, everyone seems to agree that it is the way to go but it still seems a bit black art to me. Yet we have long and inconclusive debates about retrobrite and the like where there are opionions on both sides of the fence. I'm not saying I'd like to have a big debate about this, just wondering if I'm missing something somewhere. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From lyndon at orthanc.ca Fri Jan 2 16:43:44 2015 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 14:43:44 -0800 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: <01PGUW8LO146002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PGUW8LO146002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2015, at 1:34 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > In practice, I can't see how it would be possible to get the concentration of > neutralising agent even approximately right and how it would be possible to > cover all the contaminated areas and yet avoid getting it on non-contaminated > areas and maybe causing new damage there. > > And then there's the wondering whether the resulting wet salts will do different > or worse damage than the original contamination before they are washed off > and whether they might be dangerous to people? The few times I have had to deal with this, I washed/cleaned with a relatively weak acid/base solution. Household vinegar isn't all that acidic, and for a base I used a teaspoon of baking soda in cup of water. After scrubbing things down with a soft brush to remove the caked on crud, the key is to rinse everything thoroughly with lots of distilled water. A Waterpik full of distilled water is very useful to flush out residue and neutralizing solution from hard-to-reach places, and especially vias. Afterwards, put the board under a fan to dry out. (You don't need to hit it with a hair dryer. A steady continuous airflow is all that's required.) So far I have rescued two cell phones, one Pentax SLR, and an expensive Fluke DVM using this technique. --lyndon From scaron at umich.edu Fri Jan 2 16:53:52 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 17:53:52 -0500 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs Message-ID: Hi all, I'm looking to pick up a few TI TMS9902 ICs... this is an asynchronous communications chip for TMS9900 based systems. I'm considering the architecture for my next retro-SBC as I get closer to wrapping up my 6502 SBC, so, trying to put all the pieces together. Willing to pay a fair price. Thanks! Sean From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 16:38:35 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 20:38:35 -0200 Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? References: <01PGUW8LO146002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > Unusally for this list, everyone seems to agree that it is the way to go > but it still seems a bit black art to me. Yet we have long and > inconclusive > debates about retrobrite and the like where there are opionions on both > sides > of the fence. I'm not saying I'd like to have a big debate about this, > just > wondering if I'm missing something somewhere. Dear Peter I hate to "show credentials" but... I'm an engineer with long experience in development and repair of embbedded electronics systems, from simple household items to radar and microwave communication systems. I've repaired boards way more complicated (and fragile) than A4000 boards for years, and - of course - before applying techniques unknown in fragile (and more expensive than a year's pay) boards, I've studied the chemical and physical aspects of anything, since an error could me cost lots and lots of money. So, when I say something, it may even not be the more perfect method (so it must be reproductible by people without acess to special chemicals and tools) but **it works, because I tried and use it for years**. It isn't a tip from a weekender. Anyway, I can always be wrong, and I'm very happy to be confronted with good knowledge and pratice. Anyone here, please, feel free to correct me. But give me proof. Very sorry to "show credentials", I don't want to be rude nor better than anyone here in any way Greetings from Brazil Alexandre From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Jan 2 19:08:35 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 19:08:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: <01PGUW8LO146002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PGUW8LO146002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jan 2015, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> Went through this entire process on my A4000 a couple of years back. In >> my case there was damage to traces underneath several of the adjacent >> chips and the clock chip was dead to boot. I would suggest soaking the >> board overnight in dilute vinegar in addition to washing, since the >> alkaline crud gets into via holes where washing won't dislodge it. If >> traces are not already eaten, this may eliminate the need to remove the >> DIMM sockets. > > I've often seen it suggested that acid or alkali contamination should be > neutralised somehow. In theory it seems like the thing to do but I've > always had doubts about how successfully this can be done and whether > the cure might do further damage on top of the original contamination. > > In practice, I can't see how it would be possible to get the > concentration of neutralising agent even approximately right and how it > would be possible to cover all the contaminated areas and yet avoid > getting it on non-contaminated areas and maybe causing new damage there. > > And then there's the wondering whether the resulting wet salts will do > different or worse damage than the original contamination before they > are washed off and whether they might be dangerous to people? > > Unusally for this list, everyone seems to agree that it is the way to go > but it still seems a bit black art to me. Yet we have long and > inconclusive debates about retrobrite and the like where there are > opionions on both sides of the fence. I'm not saying I'd like to have a > big debate about this, just wondering if I'm missing something > somewhere. I recently re-re-summarized the process over on the EEVBlog forums after Dave Jones found his Apple Lisa badly damaged by the on-board batteries. (I don't know if he will repair it, but I think it would make for a good how-to video for this process should he decide to do it.) I'm not sure how many times I've mentioned the process I use in neutralizing the alkaline mess from leaking NiCd or alkaline batteries (finding those old messages isn't easy with the archives down), but I know lots of people have used this technique successfully. "Basically, you clean the entire affected area (multiple boards in the case of this Lisa) with white vinegar and scrub at it lightly with a toothbrush (even get down into the card edge sockets, although they will likely need to be replaced later). The NiCd material that leaks from the batteries is highly alkaline, so the vinegar, being a mild acid, will neutralize it. You then need to rinse the boards with lots of water in a sink to make sure you flush out all the vinegar because any remaining vinegar would also be mildly corrosive. Flushing with vinegar and scrubbing away any buildup will stabilize the boards and stop further corrosion. Simply cleaning with isopropyl won't neutralize the battery mess and even if you clean off a lot of it, without neutralizing, the boards will corrode up again." "The next step, if you wanted to go a little further with cleaning, would be to lightly scrub the corroded areas using a baking soda and water paste with a toothbrush, followed by another water rinse. This will remove the bulk of the surface corrosion on any exposed copper traces, component leads, etc. and also helps neutralize any remaining vinegar." "The cleaning/stabilization technique is very simple, but a little messy, so you'll want to clean the boards in a sink. Some people claim you need deionized water for this sort of thing, but I've been using tap water to do this for decades and have yet to have any issues with it." "As for the discoloration and tarnish under the solder mask, once the board is neutralized with white vinegar, it shouldn't corrode further. Unless there is already a break in a trace, those discolored spots are best left alone." http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-696-apple-lisa-retro-computer-teardown/msg574717/#msg574717 "I've repaired 100s of battery damaged boards and very rarely did I need to scrape away the solder mask. The discolored spots are just tarnish/oxidization of the surface of the copper trace just under the solder mask. Tarnish under the solder mask is really more of just a cosmetic blemish and will not affect the conductivity of the copper trace itself. What seems to happen is that there are microscopic holes or weak spots in the solder mask and when the batteries leak/vent, it tarnishes the surface of the copper." "Unless the solder mask is actually bubbling up and peeling or flaking off the copper, messing with it will cause more harm than good. If the solder mask is peeling, then that probably means the solder mask wasn't applied well and battery electrolyte actually got in between the copper and solder mask. In that case, the baking soda paste and toothbrush technique I mentioned is likely to remove any loose solder mask anyway, so you probably wouldn't have to scrape it." http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-696-apple-lisa-retro-computer-teardown/msg574804/#msg574804 From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Jan 2 19:15:17 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 19:15:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: Repairing A4000 leaky NiCd damage? In-Reply-To: References: <20150102093619.GA5284@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jan 2015, Alexandre Souza wrote: > On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 02, 2015 at 01:23:14AM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> [...] >> >> You didn't say what kind of A4000, but I'm assuming you are referring >> to the Amiga, as this is a known problem. >> >>> I know the general process, but I'm curious if anyone has done this >>> specifically to an A4000 board and has any tips. As I said, I'm >>> probably going to have to pull the DIMM socket to get to all the >>> damage. >> >> I've never had much luck with this kind of repair, but the A4000 repair >> always sounded particularly difficult and liable to fail. Still, if >> you've got the right tools and are patient and careful, you won't be >> worse off than if you didn't bother at all. > > I've repaired many...I usually take off all the components of the > affected area, wash it with vinegar (!) to neutralize the electrolyte, > wash again with alchool or MEK (Metil-Etil-Ketone, cancerous and very > dangerous solvent) and rebuild the traces with very thin (awg 30) > wire-wrap wire. It always works (for me) :) > > I've spent someday 6 hours to recover a board. In Brazil it is worth it! What is the purpose of using MEK (Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone) on a pc board? I would be worried it could potentially damage the rubber end seals of electrolytics or any styrene or ABS plastic encapsulated components. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jan 2 22:25:17 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2015 20:25:17 -0800 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A76F2D.2040502@jwsss.com> On 1/2/2015 2:53 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking to pick up a few TI TMS9902 ICs... this is an asynchronous > communications chip for TMS9900 based systems. I'm considering the > architecture for my next retro-SBC as I get closer to wrapping up my 6502 > SBC, so, trying to put all the pieces together. Willing to pay a fair price. > > Thanks! > > Sean > > We used the 9902 with a 9995 for a 16 port async controller. It is a very nice chip. I'll hunt around and see if I can find our firmware for that system anywhere. jim From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Jan 3 03:05:11 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 03:05:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: Compaq Systempro processor board repair Message-ID: I have a Compaq Systempro 486DX2/66 processor board (Spare No. 133825-001) which I'm trying to repair that is missing some SMD components on the solder side of the board. Does anyone happen to have one of these in their collection and would be willing to read the component markings so I can repair this one? Thankfully Compaq used SMD capacitors with readable codes on them which indicate their values. My board is missing R135, C227, C178, and C153. Looking at the solder side of the board with the card edge connectors facing towards you, R135 and C227 are towards the top left corner, about 1" from the top and 1.5" from the left. They are opposite U54 which is on the component side of the board. I /think/ R135 is supposed to be 56 ohms and C227 0.047uF (based on some similar looking circuitry on the board) but I have no way to verify if those are the correct values. C178 is about 1/4" from the top edge of the board and just to the left of U511 (ATT7C174J). It is opposite U43/U60 which is on the component side of the board. C153 is just above the longest card edge connector, about 1" from the leftmost contacts. It is opposite U32 which is on the component side of the board. I salvaged this board out of a scrap bin many years ago and have already made lots of repairs to it, but I've never quite finished it. I'm about to order some other SMD parts for other projects, so if I can figure out what value these parts are supposed to be, I can pick up a few extra reels of components and finally finish this board. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 3 09:55:26 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2015 07:55:26 -0800 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A810EE.4000903@bitsavers.org> On 1/2/15 2:53 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking to pick up a few TI TMS9902 ICs they don't seem to be difficult to find http://www.ebay.com/itm/131214056343 there seems to be whole kits of 9900 parts there If it were me, I'd use a 9995 instead of a 9000 though I wonder what this is a kit for? http://www.ebay.com/itm/161348716210 The whole system seems to be there, including two memory mappers? From scaron at umich.edu Sat Jan 3 11:25:30 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 12:25:30 -0500 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: <54A810EE.4000903@bitsavers.org> References: <54A810EE.4000903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: OK, back story, I'm particularly interested in the TMS9900 because my dad used TI 990 machines in some way in his first job out of school at Chrysler (maybe as a CAE machine and embedded development platform for early auto electronics he was working on?) so, growing up, poring through the bookshelves, I would stumble across documentation for this "strange" TI 990 system and I've always been kind of intrigued by it... I've never seen a TI 990 system in the wild, and only a few folks are displaying 990 architecture SBCs or actual TI-990 systems so the obscurity factor is there a little bit... Last but not least the architecture is somewhat unique and the instruction set is nice. I was visiting my parents over the holidays and, being the more historically inclined of the two of us, offered to help my dad get rid of some old obsolete "ephemera" ;) So, amongst a fairly huge "data dump", my dad set me off to start with a large binder left over from an introductory seminar on the 990 from the 70s and a few ICs from his junk box... TMS9901s... we couldn't find any CPUs for some reason though my dad was certain he had a few kicking around somewhere. We'll look again next time I visit. I did some research and it seems that straight TMS9900s are hard to find (and harder to find cheap) and they are frustrating to work with because they require three different voltages to operate, and four clocks (ideally supplied by the equally difficult to find TIM9904). So, I'm with you, I did decide to use the TMS9995 to do my 990-architecture machine. (I'll just use my stock of DIP 68000s when I want to build something with a 16-bit data bus...) The reason I asked here is that I'm really wary of the parts from China and Hong Kong, I have read a lot of stories where people have bought these ICs and they have turned out to be completely re-marked, totally bad, somewhat defective, etc. I'm trying to find a local source if I can... I was able to source the 9995s locally from a guy here in MI... I got the 9901s from my dad. Just need a few 9902s and I should be ready to roll... if I get desperate I might try the China suppliers but I'd rather get it from a list member, or at least an onshore eBay seller. Has anyone bought ICs from one of these Chinese suppliers and found that they were bona fide and in general functional (I know, now 100% guarantees on random old ICs...)? I'd be very interested to hear endorsements. The offshore sellers have a lot of interesting old ICs and the prices are in general very low... I would go to town if I felt safer, LOL. I have seen those parts kits you mention and I have wondered about them as well... I assume they are targeted at guys like me, people trying to build home brew 990 machines? I do wonder about the origins... I could believe they were maybe 99/4a machines at some point in time sent overseas to be scrapped, with the remainder... the EPROM, SRAM and glue, made up from other sources. However, I've closely scrutinized a picture of the 99/4a motherboard and I don't see a TMS9902 on there so it might not be so easy to just say, oh, someone pulled all the bits off a 99/4a and threw some extra stuff on top; I'm just not sure. Best, Sean On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/2/15 2:53 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I'm looking to pick up a few TI TMS9902 ICs >> > > they don't seem to be difficult to find > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/131214056343 > > there seems to be whole kits of 9900 parts there > > If it were me, I'd use a 9995 instead of a 9000 though > > I wonder what this is a kit for? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/161348716210 > > The whole system seems to be there, including two memory mappers? > > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 3 12:26:02 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2015 10:26:02 -0800 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: References: <54A810EE.4000903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54A8343A.2070400@bitsavers.org> On 1/3/15 9:25 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > I have seen those parts kits you mention and I have wondered about them as > well... I assume they are targeted at guys like me, people trying to build > home brew 990 machines? The one I pointed to has a CPLD, so it seems like it is a parts kit for something.. There are other kits that have a Yamaha ASIC. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 3 12:31:24 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2015 10:31:24 -0800 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: References: <54A810EE.4000903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54A8357C.6090908@bitsavers.org> On 1/3/15 9:25 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > I've never seen a TI > 990 system in the wild, and only a few folks are displaying 990 > architecture SBCs or actual TI-990 systems so the obscurity factor is there > a little bit. I have at least 6 990s (/4 /10 /12) and several truckloads of boards/documentation/software that no one here has expressed any interest in after talking about them a couple of times over the years. Dave Pitts has several and has written an emulator that runs most of the OSes for them http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ti990.html From scaron at umich.edu Sat Jan 3 13:42:36 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 14:42:36 -0500 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: <54A8357C.6090908@bitsavers.org> References: <54A810EE.4000903@bitsavers.org> <54A8357C.6090908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I guess I missed the discussion, though I was away for quite a while, LOL. I'm definitely interested in anything to do with the TI-990. I'd really like to have a 990/4 or 990/5; one of the smaller machines; someday but a little SBC implementation will do just fine to sate my desire to play with the architecture. I saw Dave's page, a great read. I plan to use his assembler. I hadn't done much Googling on the topic in quite a while and I see the state of things has much advanced in terms of what's out there for the 990. I ought to download a copy of the emulator and try DX10. Best, Sean On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 1:31 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/3/15 9:25 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> I've never seen a TI >> 990 system in the wild, and only a few folks are displaying 990 >> architecture SBCs or actual TI-990 systems so the obscurity factor is >> there >> a little bit. >> > > I have at least 6 990s (/4 /10 /12) and several truckloads of > boards/documentation/software > that no one here has expressed any interest in after talking about them a > couple of times over > the years. Dave Pitts has several and has written an emulator that runs > most of the OSes for > them http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ti990.html > > > > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jan 3 22:02:16 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 17:02:16 +1300 Subject: PET/CBM Book available In-Reply-To: <002101d01891$a9800b90$fc8022b0$@com> References: <002101d01891$a9800b90$fc8022b0$@com> Message-ID: David. Is this still available and if so is it in good condition? Mine is starting to fall apart. Cheers Terry (Tez) On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 7:05 AM, David Williams wrote: > I have a spare copy of the PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide Second Edition > by > Adam Osborne & Carroll S. Donahue published by Osborne/McGraw-Hill > available. If you are interested make me an offer. > > > > David Williams > > www.trailingedge.com > > > > From johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jan 4 06:42:29 2015 From: johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk (John Wallace) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 12:42:29 +0000 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1420375349.6038.YahooMailBasic@web171801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Dave Pitts' aforementioned page links to some 990 stuff at bitsavers. The stuff there is largely system level stuff. People whose interests are closer to chip level might want to have a look at the 9900 Microprocessor Series Family Systems Design Databook available at archive.org, if they're not already aware: https://archive.org/details/9900MicroprocessorSeriesFamilySystemsDesignDataBook A 2 inch thick book that contained pretty much everything you were likely to need to know about the 9900 family. One of the few other useful 9900 resources I vaguely remember was a 3rd party 9900 book which contained the source for an "instant input assembler" - a tiny line by line assembler which you could add to your PROM-based 9900 debug monitor so you could enter small programs as source rather than hex. Neat. Can't remember name of author or of book, can't quickly find them either. I worked with 990/4 systems many years ago and there was almost no 9900 family glue logic inside. As far as I remember, the /4 was designed before (most of?) the 99xx support chips came to market. So a serial card in a /4 had a handful of chips doing what a 9902 would eventually do in one. Not sure about the video controller but the same probably applied. I have a vague recollection that the interweb has some decent writeups of the innards of the 99/4 home computer stuff (sorry, no pointers); from those, it might be possible to work out if the kit of parts on eBay is a plausible match for a 99/4 or similar volume market product. Have a lot of fun John Wallace From supervinx at libero.it Sun Jan 4 07:59:56 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 14:59:56 +0100 Subject: 8" drive advice... Message-ID: <1420379996.3119.5.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> I need to connect an external 8" floppy drive to the FDADAP card. I've found two drives: NEC FD1165A and Shugart SA851. I have to buy ine of them. I'm about to choose the NEC one, since it doesn't need an AC power source. The Shugart SA851 is targeted 115 VAC, and I live in Europe. Beside power supply questions, are there other reasons why I should choose the Shugart? Hard sectored disk support? I only have to read/write IBM S/36 and 5120 floppy disks... Thanks! -- Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) --==ooOoo==-- My computer collection: http://www.supervinx.com/Retrocomputer --==ooOoo==-- You can reach me at: www.supervinx.com www.facebook.com/supervinx http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx http://www.myspace.com/supervinx From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Jan 4 10:05:19 2015 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 17:05:19 +0100 Subject: 8" drive advice... References: <1420379996.3119.5.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: >I need to connect an external 8" floppy drive to the FDADAP card. > I've found two drives: NEC FD1165A and Shugart SA851. I have to buy ine > of them. > I'm about to choose the NEC one, since it doesn't need an AC power > source. > The Shugart SA851 is targeted 115 VAC, and I live in Europe. > Beside power supply questions, are there other reasons why I should > choose the Shugart? Hard sectored disk support? I only have to > read/write IBM S/36 and 5120 floppy disks... I have used the FD1165A for many years in many systems, and have never experienced problems with the drive. My experience with Shugart is very limited, I only have a SA800 in a specialized system. The 1165A does not need AC power, so that would be a good advantage. /Nico From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Sun Jan 4 10:04:25 2015 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 09:04:25 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) Message-ID: Time for another trivia question. We will start off the year with an easy one. This one is related to computers but not exclusive to computers. What is the significance of the phrase: The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. No fair looking it up on the internet. Doug Ingraham PDP-8 S/N 1175 From scaron at umich.edu Sun Jan 4 10:15:07 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 11:15:07 -0500 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: <1420375349.6038.YahooMailBasic@web171801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1420375349.6038.YahooMailBasic@web171801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Do you happen to have any leads on the title? I searched for TMS9900 on Amazon and I'm just getting back a few TI publications. Sounds like something I'd like to have in my antiquarian EE/CS book collection if I can find it :) I know a lot of the "family" ICs are just there for convenience and that in principle it's possible to hook up basically any LSI UART (or combination of discrete parts equating to a UART) to any CPU given enough glue... but since it's my first time through with the architecture, I want to keep it simple if I can :) OTOH, I guess upping the challenge level a little bit wouldn't kill me. ;) As you note, I don't think the TMS9902 was even used in the TI99/4a; I looked at some high-res board pics and couldn't make it out. I do have other UARTs in my inventory i.e. 6551, 6850, 16550, etc. I'm definitely looking forward to it... my TMS9995s should be here pretty soon so I can start fooling around. Best, Sean On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 7:42 AM, John Wallace wrote: > Dave Pitts' aforementioned page links to some 990 stuff at bitsavers. The > stuff there is largely system level stuff. > > People whose interests are closer to chip level might want to have a look > at the 9900 Microprocessor Series Family Systems Design Databook available > at archive.org, if they're not already aware: > > https://archive.org/details/9900MicroprocessorSeriesFamilySystemsDesignDataBook > > A 2 inch thick book that contained pretty much everything you were likely > to need to know about the 9900 family. > > One of the few other useful 9900 resources I vaguely remember was a 3rd > party 9900 book which contained the source for an "instant input assembler" > - a tiny line by line assembler which you could add to your PROM-based 9900 > debug monitor so you could enter small programs as source rather than hex. > Neat. Can't remember name of author or of book, can't quickly find them > either. > > I worked with 990/4 systems many years ago and there was almost no 9900 > family glue logic inside. As far as I remember, the /4 was designed before > (most of?) the 99xx support chips came to market. So a serial card in a /4 > had a handful of chips doing what a 9902 would eventually do in one. Not > sure about the video controller but the same probably applied. > > I have a vague recollection that the interweb has some decent writeups of > the innards of the 99/4 home computer stuff (sorry, no pointers); from > those, it might be possible to work out if the kit of parts on eBay is a > plausible match for a 99/4 or similar volume market product. > > Have a lot of fun > John Wallace > From rickb at bensene.com Sun Jan 4 10:20:25 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 08:20:25 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > What is the significance of the phrase: > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. > The sentence contains all of the letters of the alphabet, making it suitable as a good test for electromechanical and electronic typing equipment, as well as a good exercise for typists to be able to accurately and quickly know each letter key on the typewriter keyboard. I didn't look this up anywhere, just knew it from memory from typing class back in high school. -Rick Bensene From rwiker at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 10:23:11 2015 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 17:23:11 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3AF63662-6ED6-4A98-9EB6-3AA66C29B3F0@gmail.com> That phrase uses all the letters in the (English) alphabet. Regards, Raymond Wiker > On 04 Jan 2015, at 17:04 , Doug Ingraham wrote: > > Time for another trivia question. We will start off the year with an easy > one. This one is related to computers but not exclusive to computers. > > What is the significance of the phrase: > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. > > No fair looking it up on the internet. > > Doug Ingraham > PDP-8 S/N 1175 From scaron at umich.edu Sun Jan 4 10:32:35 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 11:32:35 -0500 Subject: SIM990/DX10 help? Message-ID: Hi everyone, I downloaded Dave Pitts' SIM990 emulator and the pre-rolled DX10 disk images available on his site yesterday evening, thinking I'd give it a run. SIM990 compiled clean; I'm running on Debian 7.7, 32-bit, on an Intel D510 Atom system. I feel as though this should be plenty of power... I run Hercules on this same system all the time to fool around with MTS and MVS 3.8J and I find the performance to be just fine... (way better than on my old Sun Fire V120s, LOL) I extracted the DX10 images and I started the emulator on them as directed: sim990 -msc 12 512K dx10.cfg For a terminal emulator, I'm using PuTTY; I also tried Procomm Plus (latest version) with a few different emulations and couldn't make it work, I seem to get furthest with PuTTY. I connect using Telnet protocol to port 2000 on the emulation host. I get the DX10 IPL screen: * TEXAS INSTRUMENTS * DX10 "SYS3 " SYSTEM IPL * ST01 I hit F10 then "!" and I get a sort of menu-like thing: **************************** DX10 3.7.0 THIS SYSTEM HAS THE FOLLOWING SUBSYSTEMS INSTALLED: COBOL PASCAL SORTMRG BASIC ... ***************************** I don't get a signon prompt but I assume user login has not been enabled on this basic disk image, however... I never get the SCI prompt, [], and it seems unresponsive; I've tried typing i.e. BASIC, COBOL, commands from the DX10 manual, totally random junk, etc. and I don't get any response; I mean, it seems to be refreshing the screen every time I hit RETURN; it's not giving me any kind of error message, but it's not really doing anything either. Is my emulation just not working right? I tried the DNOS image too and I was able to get a little further... At IPL it prompts for date and time which I'm able to fill in, and there is a login stage (l: SYSTEM, p: SYSTEM) which I can get through, just use the cursor keys to move through the fields and hit RETURN to push the screen (it seems screen-oriented, feels reminiscent of an IBM) but once that's done I land at an equally unresponsive main menu just like I describe occurring with DX10. Has anyone played with this and found a Telnet client that works well? I don't see anything on the author's site other than to note that Windows Telnet won't work. Not clear what I'm doing wrong. Thanks! Sean From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Jan 4 10:34:06 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 17:34:06 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150104163406.GA6530@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Jan 04, 2015 at 08:20:25AM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: > > What is the significance of the phrase: > > > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. > > > The sentence contains all of the letters of the alphabet It's nice and all but it lacks a few letters. "Flygande b?ckasiner s?ka hwila p? mjuka tuvor (qxz)" /P From scaron at umich.edu Sun Jan 4 10:51:33 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 11:51:33 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: <20150104163406.GA6530@Update.UU.SE> References: <20150104163406.GA6530@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Chalk me up as a +1 to Rick's answer. But Pontus' question now has me wondering, are there canonical equivalent phrases to this in other languages and keyboard layouts? European readers please share! Best, Sean On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sun, Jan 04, 2015 at 08:20:25AM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > What is the significance of the phrase: > > > > > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. > > > > > The sentence contains all of the letters of the alphabet > > It's nice and all but it lacks a few letters. > > "Flygande b?ckasiner s?ka hwila p? mjuka tuvor (qxz)" > > /P > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 11:11:13 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 15:11:13 -0200 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: <20150104163406.GA6530@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In Brazil we use the same phrase... enviado do meu telemovel Em 04/01/2015 14:57, "Sean Caron" escreveu: > Chalk me up as a +1 to Rick's answer. But Pontus' question now has me > wondering, are there canonical equivalent phrases to this in other > languages and keyboard layouts? European readers please share! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > > > On Sun, Jan 04, 2015 at 08:20:25AM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > > What is the significance of the phrase: > > > > > > > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. > > > > > > > The sentence contains all of the letters of the alphabet > > > > It's nice and all but it lacks a few letters. > > > > "Flygande b?ckasiner s?ka hwila p? mjuka tuvor (qxz)" > > > > /P > > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 11:14:34 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 12:14:34 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) References: <20150104163406.GA6530@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Franz jagt im komplett verwahrlosten Taxi quer durch Bayern. BTW, these are known as Pangrams. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Caron" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "Sean Caron" Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) Chalk me up as a +1 to Rick's answer. But Pontus' question now has me wondering, are there canonical equivalent phrases to this in other languages and keyboard layouts? European readers please share! Best, Sean On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sun, Jan 04, 2015 at 08:20:25AM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > What is the significance of the phrase: > > > > > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. > > > > > The sentence contains all of the letters of the alphabet > > It's nice and all but it lacks a few letters. > > "Flygande b?ckasiner s?ka hwila p? mjuka tuvor (qxz)" > > /P > From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jan 4 11:14:02 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 12:14:02 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: <20150104163406.GA6530@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <54A974DA.4050001@cimmeri.com> Why would you use the same phrase when your spelling is different? Why not invent your own which includes all letters of the Roman alphabet? - J. On 1/4/2015 12:11 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > In Brazil we use the same phrase... > > enviado do meu telemovel > Em 04/01/2015 14:57, "Sean Caron" escreveu: > >> Chalk me up as a +1 to Rick's answer. But Pontus' question now has me >> wondering, are there canonical equivalent phrases to this in other >> languages and keyboard layouts? European readers please share! >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Jan 04, 2015 at 08:20:25AM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: >>>>> What is the significance of the phrase: >>>>> >>>>> The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. >>>>> >>>> The sentence contains all of the letters of the alphabet >>> It's nice and all but it lacks a few letters. >>> >>> "Flygande b?ckasiner s?ka hwila p? mjuka tuvor (qxz)" >>> >>> /P >>> > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jan 4 11:14:57 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 11:14:57 -0600 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A97511.8010909@pico-systems.com> On 01/04/2015 10:04 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > Time for another trivia question. We will start off the year with an easy > one. This one is related to computers but not exclusive to computers. > > What is the significance of the phrase: > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. > > it has all letters of the alphabet. It was used as part of an idle string on Teletypes to free up the mechanism. Usually also had 01234567890 and RYRYRYRY, which is 10101 01010 in Baudot. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 4 11:47:48 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 09:47:48 -0800 Subject: SIM990/DX10 help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A97CC4.6090700@bitsavers.org> On 1/4/15 8:32 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > Has anyone played with this Try emailing Dave, he's a good guy. I'd be interested in finding out what the problem is. From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Jan 4 11:57:10 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 18:57:10 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A97EF6.8010608@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-04 17:04, Doug Ingraham wrote: > Time for another trivia question. We will start off the year with an easy > one. This one is related to computers but not exclusive to computers. > > What is the significance of the phrase: > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. > > No fair looking it up on the internet. It contains all characters in the alphabet, and is a good test phrase for output. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 12:13:19 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 10:13:19 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A982BF.9020301@sydex.com> On 01/04/2015 08:04 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > Time for another trivia question. We will start off the year with an easy > one. This one is related to computers but not exclusive to computers. > > What is the significance of the phrase: > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. > > No fair looking it up on the internet. > > Doug Ingraham > PDP-8 S/N 1175 Too easy--it's a typing exercise (predates modern computers) that incorporates every letter of the English alphabet. I suspect that other languages have similar exercises, though I don't know what the Japanese do in Kanji. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 4 13:03:31 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 19:03:31 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A98E83.1000907@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/01/2015 16:04, Doug Ingraham wrote: > What is the significance of the phrase: > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. It contains all the letters of the English alphabet, as does Pack my box with five dozen liquor jugs. It originates as a typing exercise, as does Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their party, an exercise for touch typist that has (very) roughly the common ratios and sequences of letters. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 4 13:22:31 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 11:22:31 -0800 Subject: SIM990/DX10 help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A992F7.4040909@bitsavers.org> On 1/4/15 8:32 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > For a terminal emulator, I'm using PuTTY It just occured to me that you probably have to be running something that looks like a TI CRT. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 13:42:36 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 11:42:36 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: <54A98E83.1000907@dunnington.plus.com> References: <54A98E83.1000907@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <54A997AC.1060408@sydex.com> On 01/04/2015 11:03 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their party, > > an exercise for touch typist that has (very) roughly the common ratios > and sequences of letters. Not only that, it's an exercise for speed, as there are strong patterns of alternating right- and left-hand letters. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 4 13:46:39 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 19:46:39 -0000 Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure Message-ID: <03b301d02857$2809efb0$781dcf10$@ntlworld.com> When I power up my DECsystem 5100 I get the output shown at the end of this email. I thought this was to do with the DS1287 chip as it seems be an NVRAM battery error (perhaps). Since I know these devices fail I took out the DS1287, put in a socket and then bought a replacement DS12887A. But I still get the same problem. It could be that I bought a bad replacement, or that I have done some damage in my desoldering of the original, or it could be that the error is something completely different. In fact the Maintenance Manual suggests test 9 is to do with the DZ, and I can't find what test 4 relates to. Does anyone know what this failure is if it isnt' the DS1287? Is there an easy way to test a DS1287? Regards Rob 26..25..24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..14..14.. 13..12..11..10..09..?45a nv ba?45a nv bat ?45a nv ba?45a nv bat ?45a nv ba?45a nv bat 08..07..06..05..04..?45a nv bat 03.. ?45a nv bat ?45a nv bat ?45a nv bat ?45a nv bat ?45a nv bat ?45a nv bat KN230 V1.4 08-00-2b-27-04-50 0x800000 >> conf -f hardware: revision 1 firmware: revision 5 cpu: revision 2.32 fpu: revision 3.32 security switch: secure mode password: clear eeprom: valid ethernet hardware address: 08-00-2b-27-04-50 option board: not present memory: total size 8MBs bank0 4MB SIMMs size: 8MBs 0 bad pages scsi peripherals unit type product removable/fixed capacity 7 host adapter >> prcache From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 4 13:47:32 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 19:47:32 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Time for another trivia question. We will start off the year with an easy > one. This one is related to computers but not exclusive to computers. > > What is the significance of the phrase: > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. I always prefered XV QUICK NYMPHS BEG FJORD WALTZ (both use all the letters in the alphabet, the second one is each letter once and once only). >From where I am sitting I can see a telegraph distortion meter which can send the standard (Quick Brow Fox) test message in 5 bit ITA2 code (the one that is commonly called Baudot code). The message is stored as a pattern of conducting and insulating blocks on a disk, with a ratchet mechanism to move it on after each character and a set of spring contacts to read out the bits. The serialisation of each 5 bit character is done by a ring of triode valves. But I digress. -tony From b4 at gewt.net Sun Jan 4 14:03:45 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 15:03:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: <03b301d02857$2809efb0$781dcf10$@ntlworld.com> References: <03b301d02857$2809efb0$781dcf10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > When I power up my DECsystem 5100 I get the output shown at the end of this > email. I thought this was to do with the DS1287 chip as it seems be an NVRAM > battery error (perhaps). Since I know these devices fail I took out the > DS1287, put in a socket and then bought a replacement DS12887A. But I still > get the same problem. It could be that I bought a bad replacement, or that I > have done some damage in my desoldering of the original, or it could be that > the error is something completely different. In fact the Maintenance Manual > suggests test 9 is to do with the DZ, and I can't find what test 4 relates > to. > > > How does the DDS12887A compare in speed/timing compared to the original DS1287 I know with Suns some 150ns ones don't work, yet 100ns or 200ns or whatever are fine. -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jan 4 14:04:24 2015 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 13:04:24 -0700 Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: <03b301d02857$2809efb0$781dcf10$@ntlworld.com> References: <03b301d02857$2809efb0$781dcf10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54A99CC8.9060200@e-bbes.com> On 2015-01-04 12:46, Robert Jarratt wrote: > When I power up my DECsystem 5100 I get the output shown at the end of this > email. I thought this was to do with the DS1287 chip as it seems be an NVRAM > battery error (perhaps). Since I know these devices fail I took out the > DS1287, put in a socket and then bought a replacement DS12887A. But I still > get the same problem. It could be that I bought a bad replacement, or that I > have done some damage in my desoldering of the original, or it could be that > the error is something completely different. In fact the Maintenance Manual > suggests test 9 is to do with the DZ, and I can't find what test 4 relates > to. test 4 is RTC test From scaron at umich.edu Sun Jan 4 14:05:50 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 15:05:50 -0500 Subject: SIM990/DX10 help? In-Reply-To: <54A992F7.4040909@bitsavers.org> References: <54A992F7.4040909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Could be? That might throw me... I don't know if there is any contemporary software out there that will emulate the TI VDTs... I checked in Procomm which is the best I've got for emulating strange terminals and it's got nothing. Best, Sean On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/4/15 8:32 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > For a terminal emulator, I'm using PuTTY >> > > It just occured to me that you probably have to be running something that > looks > like a TI CRT. > > > > From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Jan 4 14:38:41 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 14:38:41 -0600 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: <54A98E83.1000907@dunnington.plus.com> References: <54A98E83.1000907@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20150104203841.GA25486@lonesome.com> On Sun, Jan 04, 2015 at 07:03:31PM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 04/01/2015 16:04, Doug Ingraham wrote: > It contains all the letters of the English alphabet, as does > > Pack my box with five dozen liquor jugs. Someone on the FreeBSD.org mailing lists uses "sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow." Cited in http://listverse.com/2012/05/16/10-notable-pangrams/ among others. I didn't know there were so many. mcl From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 4 15:31:05 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 21:31:05 -0000 Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: <54A99CC8.9060200@e-bbes.com> References: <03b301d02857$2809efb0$781dcf10$@ntlworld.com> <54A99CC8.9060200@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <03c101d02865$bf454420$3dcfcc60$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of emanuel > stiebler > Sent: 04 January 2015 20:04 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure > > On 2015-01-04 12:46, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > When I power up my DECsystem 5100 I get the output shown at the end of > > this email. I thought this was to do with the DS1287 chip as it seems > > be an NVRAM battery error (perhaps). Since I know these devices fail I > > took out the DS1287, put in a socket and then bought a replacement > > DS12887A. But I still get the same problem. It could be that I bought > > a bad replacement, or that I have done some damage in my desoldering > > of the original, or it could be that the error is something completely > > different. In fact the Maintenance Manual suggests test 9 is to do > > with the DZ, and I can't find what test 4 relates to. > > test 4 is RTC test Hmmm, that seems to pass OK if I do this: >> test -v 0x4 -004-03 rtc tsts -004-04 wrt nv ram w/ aa -004-04 chk nv ram w/ aa -004-04 wrt nv ram w/ 55 -004-04 chk nv ram w/ 55 -004-05 wrt nv ram w/ inc pat -004-05 chk nv ram w/ pat -004-06 wrt rtc reg w/ inc pat -004-06 chk rtc reg w/ pat -004-07 set time - enb uie int -004-08 chk periodic int >> The test numbers in the power-up sequence don't match the numbers in the extended list of tests where the test numbers are in hex (test 10 in the power up is test 0x4 - RTC). Having discovered the test -v options I got a bit more detail from test -v 0x0: 09.. -005-05 dz ln 01 int rx/tx lpback tst ?45a nv ba?45a nv bat -005-05 dz ln 02 int rx/tx lpback tst ?45a nv ba?45a nv bat -005-05 dz ln 03 int rx/tx lpback tst ?45a nv ba?45a nv bat 08.. -006-03 sii tsts -006-04 sii buf ram tst -006-05 sii trgt tst -006-06 sii initiator tst 07.. -007-01 lance tsts -007-03 lance csr tst -007-04 lance intrnl lb tst -007-06 lance crc err detect tst -007-07 lance promiscuous mode rx tst -007-08 lance coll detect tst -007-09 lance multicast rx tst -007-0a lance irq tst 06.. -008-03 eeprom tst -008-03 chk pats -008-03 chksum tst 05..04..?45a nv bat >> It suggests the 09 test is a loopback problem, and that would be OK as I don't have a loopback connector installed, but looking again, the test is an internal loopback test. But it does not help at all on the 04 failure.... Regards Rob From roeapeterson at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 15:34:12 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 15:34:12 -0600 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7F88DD7F-3754-4BC5-A1B3-C094ACAFD514@gmail.com> Hits every key. > On Jan 4, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > > Time for another trivia question. We will start off the year with an easy > one. This one is related to computers but not exclusive to computers. > > What is the significance of the phrase: > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. > > No fair looking it up on the internet. > > Doug Ingraham > PDP-8 S/N 1175 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jan 4 16:03:43 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 17:03:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) Message-ID: <20150104220343.6046818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > I suspect that other languages have similar exercises, though > I don't know what the Japanese do in Kanji. Err, think you mean kana, right? (Kanji are the ideograms, there are over a thousand in common use.) There is something called the 'iroha': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha which is a poem which uses every element of the Japanese syllabary - and exactly once! It was used to teach writing, no idea if it's used for the keyboard thingy. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 16:33:31 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 14:33:31 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: <20150104220343.6046818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150104220343.6046818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54A9BFBB.8000603@sydex.com> On 01/04/2015 02:03 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > I suspect that other languages have similar exercises, though > > I don't know what the Japanese do in Kanji. > > Err, think you mean kana, right? (Kanji are the ideograms, there are over a > thousand in common use.) There is something called the 'iroha': No, having set up katakana keyboards and typefaces in the path, I do mean kanji. I still have some work from back in the day from Fujitsu (I think), where the operator keys in the proper component strokes and the Wapro comes back with suggestions of ideograms and the operator selects one. I was just wondering what a typing exercise involving, say, only joyo kanji would look like... --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sun Jan 4 17:35:29 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 15:35:29 -0800 Subject: SIM990/DX10 help? In-Reply-To: References: <54A992F7.4040909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54A9CE41.1060404@jwsss.com> On 1/4/2015 12:05 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Could be? That might throw me... I don't know if there is any contemporary > software out there that will emulate the TI VDTs... I checked in Procomm > which is the best I've got for emulating strange terminals and it's got > nothing. > > Best, > > Sean > > The description says that ansi terminal is required. I got a response from the emulator. I have a windows XP running Putty for my main system. I was ssh'ed into a linux system running the emulator. I compiled it and moved it to /usr/local/bin. I started with the DX10 system as Sean did. when you follow the example (with path set to /usr/local/bin and sim990 there) you get an error as the simulator cannot find the roms. I moved copies from the build directory into the dx10 directory, and ran the emulator again. I got a good message there. jws at jws2:~/nas/projects/jws-main/ti990/dx10$ sim990 -msc 12 512K dx10.cfg TI 990 Simulator 3.0.2: /12 CPU 512K To connect to the emulator, I used another putty session ssh'ed into the same linux system. Once there I used linux telnet to connect to the emulator. The ssh session will be an ANSI compatable ssh terminal emulation. Running telnet into the same system to port 2000, means that the session supports ANSI for the terminal. Once connected, I hit F10 (and then carriage return). The banner appeared. I typed the LL to elicit a response. I The "ERROR, COMMAND..." message appeared after typing ll (echoed back upper cased) then enter. Below is what I have so far. Time to read and see what should actually work. Jim ******************************************************************************** * * * DX10 3.7.0 * * * * THIS SYSTEM HAS THE FOLLOWING SUBSYSTEMS INSTALLED: * * * * COBOL 3.5.0 FOCAL 1.0.4 (REQUIRES /12 CPU) * * PASCAL 1.8.0 FORTH 1.0.2 * * SORTMRG 3.1.0 TXDS FORTRAN 3.1.0 * * BASIC 3.1.0 * * * * THIS SYSTEM HAS BEEN PATCHED FOR Y2K. * * * ******************************************************************************** LL ERROR, COMMAND OR SCROLL FUNCTION REQUIRED: From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jan 4 18:02:03 2015 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 16:02:03 -0800 Subject: SIM990/DX10 help? Keyboard mappings In-Reply-To: <54A9CE41.1060404@jwsss.com> References: <54A992F7.4040909@bitsavers.org> <54A9CE41.1060404@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54A9D47B.5070804@jwsss.com> On 1/4/2015 3:35 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> > The description says that ansi terminal is required. Page 342, or A-2 of the Errors and codes manuals has keyboard mapping pages. Studying them for inspiration. I have not found the error message anywhere as to what keystroke is required for a "Command" or "Scroll" yet, but will play some more. The keyboard mapping might help. Jim http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ti/990/dx10/0946250-9706F_DX10_Vol6_ErrorReporting_Jan85.pdf From jws at jwsss.com Sun Jan 4 18:04:30 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 16:04:30 -0800 Subject: SIM990/DX10 help? In-Reply-To: <54A9CE41.1060404@jwsss.com> References: <54A992F7.4040909@bitsavers.org> <54A9CE41.1060404@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54A9D50E.3090507@jwsss.com> On 1/4/2015 3:35 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > Below is what I have so far. Control X is your friend. It is the "Command" key for some terminal, and gets a "System is not initialized response back. Onward to screw up my disk image... T E X A S I N S T R U M E N T S D X 1 0 S Y S T E M 3 . 7 . 0 SELECT ONE OF THE FOLLOWING COMMAND GROUPS /DEV - DEVICE OPERATIONS /FILE - FILE OPERATIONS /PDEV - PROGRAM DEVELOPMENT /SMAIN - DX10 MAINTENANCE /SOP - DX10 OPERATION Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 4 20:12:54 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 18:12:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: References: <20150104163406.GA6530@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20150104181149.Q12108@shell.lmi.net> or . . . Pack my box with five dozen liquor jugs From scaron at umich.edu Sun Jan 4 21:48:52 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 22:48:52 -0500 Subject: SIM990/DX10 help? In-Reply-To: References: <54A992F7.4040909@bitsavers.org> <54A9CE41.1060404@jwsss.com> <54A9D50E.3090507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: And if I hit Ctrl-X in my Telnet session /now/ (after I have initialized the system; this seems important) as you say, it works! I'm off! Thanks for your ideas! Best, Sean On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 10:43 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Yeah, I kind of "figured it out"... poring through README.txt and just > noodling around a little bit. So, you extract the disk images and run > sim990 (still, from a SSH session via PuTTY): > > sim990 -m 10 -s 512K -c dx10.cfg > > Once it starts up, from within that window, I found I could hit Esc (not > F10) then "!" and then I got an SCI prompt and a message about the system > being uninitialized! > > I ran a "IS" command as described in Vol. 2 of the DX-10 documentation... > this system is pretty easy to use... just filled in the date and ran with > defaults otherwise. It churned for no more than 30 seconds and eventually > it lands at a QUIT message. I let it sit for a while and once I convince > myself it's idle, I try poking at it again... > > Hit Esc and "!" and I get prompted to sign on to SCI now! I logged in with > the username and password given in README.txt (SYS001/SYSTEM). I get the > SCI prompt at the console, I can run commands just fine. Cool! > > So, now that I can use the system from the console, I'm trying to test it > with Telnet again, to see if it'll behave differently after the system has > been initialized. > > I find that now when I open Telnet sessions to port 2000, I get a prompt > to signon to SCI, which I didn't get before, and if I create a new user > account for myself using "AUI" at the console, I can get logged in. After > login, I'm at the same menu I saw before, but I still don't get a SCI > prompt in the Telnet sessions like I do from the console. > > I strongly am suspecting it might be an "emulation" issue with the Telnet > sessions, where the console is set up as a "TTY" while it is expecting the > Telnet sessions to look more like a TI VDT. I'm still poking at it but at > this point I'm confident I'll get to the bottom of it... or... I can just > use it from the console, failing all else. > > The scheme used for user accounts in DX10 is bizarre and amusing. It took > me a minute to figure out that the user ID /is/ the three digits in the > account name and they need to be unique across accounts! LOL > > Woo hoo! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 7:04 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > >> >> On 1/4/2015 3:35 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >>> >>> Below is what I have so far. >>> >> Control X is your friend. It is the "Command" key for some terminal, and >> gets a "System is not initialized response back. >> >> Onward to screw up my disk image... >> >> T E X A S I N S T R U M E N T S >> D X 1 0 S Y S T E M 3 . 7 . 0 >> >> >> >> SELECT ONE OF THE FOLLOWING COMMAND GROUPS >> >> /DEV - DEVICE OPERATIONS >> /FILE - FILE OPERATIONS >> /PDEV - PROGRAM DEVELOPMENT >> /SMAIN - DX10 MAINTENANCE >> /SOP - DX10 OPERATION >> >> >> Jim >> > > From scaron at umich.edu Sun Jan 4 21:56:44 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 22:56:44 -0500 Subject: SIM990/DX10 help? In-Reply-To: References: <54A992F7.4040909@bitsavers.org> <54A9CE41.1060404@jwsss.com> <54A9D50E.3090507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Telnet is a little dodgy but Ctrl-X always brings back the SCI prompt once you're logged in (given that the system has been initialized from the console, first). The console (set up as TTY) seems to work with 100% consistency. Honestly, I might just like to set the Telnet sessions up as TTY, too, if I could, but this is definitely working well enough to get the point across now. I love it! SYSTEM COMMAND INTERPRETER - PLEASE LOG IN. No lowercase! Best, Sean On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > And if I hit Ctrl-X in my Telnet session /now/ (after I have initialized > the system; this seems important) as you say, it works! I'm off! Thanks for > your ideas! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 10:43 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> Yeah, I kind of "figured it out"... poring through README.txt and just >> noodling around a little bit. So, you extract the disk images and run >> sim990 (still, from a SSH session via PuTTY): >> >> sim990 -m 10 -s 512K -c dx10.cfg >> >> Once it starts up, from within that window, I found I could hit Esc (not >> F10) then "!" and then I got an SCI prompt and a message about the system >> being uninitialized! >> >> I ran a "IS" command as described in Vol. 2 of the DX-10 documentation... >> this system is pretty easy to use... just filled in the date and ran with >> defaults otherwise. It churned for no more than 30 seconds and eventually >> it lands at a QUIT message. I let it sit for a while and once I convince >> myself it's idle, I try poking at it again... >> >> Hit Esc and "!" and I get prompted to sign on to SCI now! I logged in >> with the username and password given in README.txt (SYS001/SYSTEM). I get >> the SCI prompt at the console, I can run commands just fine. Cool! >> >> So, now that I can use the system from the console, I'm trying to test it >> with Telnet again, to see if it'll behave differently after the system has >> been initialized. >> >> I find that now when I open Telnet sessions to port 2000, I get a prompt >> to signon to SCI, which I didn't get before, and if I create a new user >> account for myself using "AUI" at the console, I can get logged in. After >> login, I'm at the same menu I saw before, but I still don't get a SCI >> prompt in the Telnet sessions like I do from the console. >> >> I strongly am suspecting it might be an "emulation" issue with the Telnet >> sessions, where the console is set up as a "TTY" while it is expecting the >> Telnet sessions to look more like a TI VDT. I'm still poking at it but at >> this point I'm confident I'll get to the bottom of it... or... I can just >> use it from the console, failing all else. >> >> The scheme used for user accounts in DX10 is bizarre and amusing. It took >> me a minute to figure out that the user ID /is/ the three digits in the >> account name and they need to be unique across accounts! LOL >> >> Woo hoo! >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 7:04 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >>> >>> On 1/4/2015 3:35 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Below is what I have so far. >>>> >>> Control X is your friend. It is the "Command" key for some terminal, >>> and gets a "System is not initialized response back. >>> >>> Onward to screw up my disk image... >>> >>> T E X A S I N S T R U M E N T S >>> D X 1 0 S Y S T E M 3 . 7 . 0 >>> >>> >>> >>> SELECT ONE OF THE FOLLOWING COMMAND GROUPS >>> >>> /DEV - DEVICE OPERATIONS >>> /FILE - FILE OPERATIONS >>> /PDEV - PROGRAM DEVELOPMENT >>> /SMAIN - DX10 MAINTENANCE >>> /SOP - DX10 OPERATION >>> >>> >>> Jim >>> >> >> > From scaron at umich.edu Sun Jan 4 21:43:20 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 22:43:20 -0500 Subject: SIM990/DX10 help? In-Reply-To: <54A9D50E.3090507@jwsss.com> References: <54A992F7.4040909@bitsavers.org> <54A9CE41.1060404@jwsss.com> <54A9D50E.3090507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Yeah, I kind of "figured it out"... poring through README.txt and just noodling around a little bit. So, you extract the disk images and run sim990 (still, from a SSH session via PuTTY): sim990 -m 10 -s 512K -c dx10.cfg Once it starts up, from within that window, I found I could hit Esc (not F10) then "!" and then I got an SCI prompt and a message about the system being uninitialized! I ran a "IS" command as described in Vol. 2 of the DX-10 documentation... this system is pretty easy to use... just filled in the date and ran with defaults otherwise. It churned for no more than 30 seconds and eventually it lands at a QUIT message. I let it sit for a while and once I convince myself it's idle, I try poking at it again... Hit Esc and "!" and I get prompted to sign on to SCI now! I logged in with the username and password given in README.txt (SYS001/SYSTEM). I get the SCI prompt at the console, I can run commands just fine. Cool! So, now that I can use the system from the console, I'm trying to test it with Telnet again, to see if it'll behave differently after the system has been initialized. I find that now when I open Telnet sessions to port 2000, I get a prompt to signon to SCI, which I didn't get before, and if I create a new user account for myself using "AUI" at the console, I can get logged in. After login, I'm at the same menu I saw before, but I still don't get a SCI prompt in the Telnet sessions like I do from the console. I strongly am suspecting it might be an "emulation" issue with the Telnet sessions, where the console is set up as a "TTY" while it is expecting the Telnet sessions to look more like a TI VDT. I'm still poking at it but at this point I'm confident I'll get to the bottom of it... or... I can just use it from the console, failing all else. The scheme used for user accounts in DX10 is bizarre and amusing. It took me a minute to figure out that the user ID /is/ the three digits in the account name and they need to be unique across accounts! LOL Woo hoo! Best, Sean On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 7:04 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 1/4/2015 3:35 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > >> >> Below is what I have so far. >> > Control X is your friend. It is the "Command" key for some terminal, and > gets a "System is not initialized response back. > > Onward to screw up my disk image... > > T E X A S I N S T R U M E N T S > D X 1 0 S Y S T E M 3 . 7 . 0 > > > > SELECT ONE OF THE FOLLOWING COMMAND GROUPS > > /DEV - DEVICE OPERATIONS > /FILE - FILE OPERATIONS > /PDEV - PROGRAM DEVELOPMENT > /SMAIN - DX10 MAINTENANCE > /SOP - DX10 OPERATION > > > Jim > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 00:32:02 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 00:32:02 -0600 Subject: paper tape readers Message-ID: I found a FTI table top reader today, and the only number on it is 2939. Also a Remex rack mount with 6300BB1, which could be a serial number. I might have a few more to dig out at some point. If interested, please contact me off list. Shipping from zip 61853. Thanks, Paul From scaron at umich.edu Sun Jan 4 22:00:02 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 23:00:02 -0500 Subject: SIM990/DX10 help? In-Reply-To: References: <54A992F7.4040909@bitsavers.org> <54A9CE41.1060404@jwsss.com> <54A9D50E.3090507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Sorry to keep responding to my own messages but I figure it's a good documentary thread... I'll try to make this the last one ;) The secret for best behavior in the Telnet sessions seems to be to hit Ctrl-D instead of Enter. Once you do that, it appears to be pretty well-behaved. So unusual! Quasi-screen-oriented, feels a little IBM-y, but not. Best, Sean On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Telnet is a little dodgy but Ctrl-X always brings back the SCI prompt once > you're logged in (given that the system has been initialized from the > console, first). The console (set up as TTY) seems to work with 100% > consistency. Honestly, I might just like to set the Telnet sessions up as > TTY, too, if I could, but this is definitely working well enough to get the > point across now. > > I love it! SYSTEM COMMAND INTERPRETER - PLEASE LOG IN. No lowercase! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> And if I hit Ctrl-X in my Telnet session /now/ (after I have initialized >> the system; this seems important) as you say, it works! I'm off! Thanks for >> your ideas! >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 10:43 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >> >>> Yeah, I kind of "figured it out"... poring through README.txt and just >>> noodling around a little bit. So, you extract the disk images and run >>> sim990 (still, from a SSH session via PuTTY): >>> >>> sim990 -m 10 -s 512K -c dx10.cfg >>> >>> Once it starts up, from within that window, I found I could hit Esc (not >>> F10) then "!" and then I got an SCI prompt and a message about the system >>> being uninitialized! >>> >>> I ran a "IS" command as described in Vol. 2 of the DX-10 >>> documentation... this system is pretty easy to use... just filled in the >>> date and ran with defaults otherwise. It churned for no more than 30 >>> seconds and eventually it lands at a QUIT message. I let it sit for a while >>> and once I convince myself it's idle, I try poking at it again... >>> >>> Hit Esc and "!" and I get prompted to sign on to SCI now! I logged in >>> with the username and password given in README.txt (SYS001/SYSTEM). I get >>> the SCI prompt at the console, I can run commands just fine. Cool! >>> >>> So, now that I can use the system from the console, I'm trying to test >>> it with Telnet again, to see if it'll behave differently after the system >>> has been initialized. >>> >>> I find that now when I open Telnet sessions to port 2000, I get a prompt >>> to signon to SCI, which I didn't get before, and if I create a new user >>> account for myself using "AUI" at the console, I can get logged in. After >>> login, I'm at the same menu I saw before, but I still don't get a SCI >>> prompt in the Telnet sessions like I do from the console. >>> >>> I strongly am suspecting it might be an "emulation" issue with the >>> Telnet sessions, where the console is set up as a "TTY" while it is >>> expecting the Telnet sessions to look more like a TI VDT. I'm still poking >>> at it but at this point I'm confident I'll get to the bottom of it... or... >>> I can just use it from the console, failing all else. >>> >>> The scheme used for user accounts in DX10 is bizarre and amusing. It >>> took me a minute to figure out that the user ID /is/ the three digits in >>> the account name and they need to be unique across accounts! LOL >>> >>> Woo hoo! >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 7:04 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 1/4/2015 3:35 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Below is what I have so far. >>>>> >>>> Control X is your friend. It is the "Command" key for some terminal, >>>> and gets a "System is not initialized response back. >>>> >>>> Onward to screw up my disk image... >>>> >>>> T E X A S I N S T R U M E N T S >>>> D X 1 0 S Y S T E M 3 . 7 . 0 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> SELECT ONE OF THE FOLLOWING COMMAND GROUPS >>>> >>>> /DEV - DEVICE OPERATIONS >>>> /FILE - FILE OPERATIONS >>>> /PDEV - PROGRAM DEVELOPMENT >>>> /SMAIN - DX10 MAINTENANCE >>>> /SOP - DX10 OPERATION >>>> >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>> >>> >> > From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Mon Jan 5 10:19:01 2015 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 09:19:01 -0700 (MST) Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: <03b301d02857$2809efb0$781dcf10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > When I power up my DECsystem 5100 I get the output shown at the end of this > email. I thought this was to do with the DS1287 chip as it seems be an NVRAM > battery error (perhaps). Since I know these devices fail I took out the > DS1287, put in a socket and then bought a replacement DS12887A. But I still > get the same problem. It could be that I bought a bad replacement, or that I I hope you did not throw out the old one. Assuming the new one is not compatible with you system or the battery in the new one is also dead, you can find a set of instructions on the internet to drill a couple appropriate holes in the DS1297 to disconnect the internal battery and attach an external battery. I have the link some where if you cannot find it. I have an Alphaserver 4100 (running VMS) within arm's reach that is turned off because of a dead DS1287, I have the parts but I have not found the time to do the repair. This conversation reminds me that I have put that off for too long. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 5 11:43:34 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 17:43:34 -0000 Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: References: <03b301d02857$2809efb0$781dcf10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <03ef01d0290f$20e289f0$62a79dd0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Loken > Sent: 05 January 2015 16:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure > > On Sun, 4 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > When I power up my DECsystem 5100 I get the output shown at the end of > > this email. I thought this was to do with the DS1287 chip as it seems > > be an NVRAM battery error (perhaps). Since I know these devices fail I > > took out the DS1287, put in a socket and then bought a replacement > > DS12887A. But I still get the same problem. It could be that I bought > > a bad replacement, or that I > > I hope you did not throw out the old one. Assuming the new one is not > compatible with you system or the battery in the new one is also dead, you can > find a set of instructions on the internet to drill a couple appropriate holes in > the DS1297 to disconnect the internal battery and attach an external battery. I have kept the original, but I am not sure that it was faulty in the first place. I think the fault is something else, but I am not sure what. I did find some pages on how to "repair" one, but I would rather be sure it is faulty now before trying to do anything to it. For the record the RTC self-test passes successfully. Regards Rob > > I have the link some where if you cannot find it. > > I have an Alphaserver 4100 (running VMS) within arm's reach that is turned off > because of a dead DS1287, I have the parts but I have not found the time to do > the repair. This conversation reminds me that I have put that off for too long. I would consider at least taking out the old one and soldering in a socket so that if necessary it is easy to replace. Regards Rob From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Mon Jan 5 12:28:31 2015 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 11:28:31 -0700 (MST) Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: <03ef01d0290f$20e289f0$62a79dd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > the repair. This conversation reminds me that I have put that off for too > long. > > I would consider at least taking out the old one and soldering in a socket > so that if necessary it is easy to replace. I get off easy, the RTC chip is already in a socket and not hard to access once I have removed about 10kg of screws and sheet metal. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Mon Jan 5 12:36:39 2015 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 11:36:39 -0700 (MST) Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: <03ef01d0290f$20e289f0$62a79dd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have kept the original, but I am not sure that it was faulty in the first > place. I think the fault is something else, but I am not sure what. I did > find some pages on how to "repair" one, but I would rather be sure it is > faulty now before trying to do anything to it. For the record the RTC > self-test passes successfully. I agree that you might want reserve judgement on the RTC. The RTC problem in my Alphaserver a very strange (and well documented) case. If the battery is dead, which it is after 20 years on the job, then the system time is not what OpenVMS expects so it refuses to boot. I have not found a way around this except to reinstall VMS which I did on two occasions and then it will run just fine (for VMS anyway) until the next time the power is disconnected. That business gets old really fast - especially when the guy in the next office trips the circuit breaker less than 24 hours after I have brought it back on line. I like this big noisy box and I like VMS so I must fix the RTC. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 5 13:20:38 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 19:20:38 -0000 Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: References: <03ef01d0290f$20e289f0$62a79dd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <03f801d0291c$b033c3f0$109b4bd0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Loken > Sent: 05 January 2015 18:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure > > On Mon, 5 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > I have kept the original, but I am not sure that it was faulty in the > > first place. I think the fault is something else, but I am not sure > > what. I did find some pages on how to "repair" one, but I would rather > > be sure it is faulty now before trying to do anything to it. For the > > record the RTC self-test passes successfully. > > I agree that you might want reserve judgement on the RTC. > > The RTC problem in my Alphaserver a very strange (and well documented) > case. > If the battery is dead, which it is after 20 years on the job, then the system time > is not what OpenVMS expects so it refuses to boot. I have not found a way > around this except to reinstall VMS which I did on two occasions and then it will > run just fine (for VMS anyway) until the next time the power is disconnected. > That business gets old really fast - especially when the guy in the next office > trips the circuit breaker less than 24 hours after I have brought it back on line. > > I like this big noisy box and I like VMS so I must fix the RTC. Have you tried buying a DS12887 as a replacement? They are supposed to be drop-in replacements, and if yours is already socketed then it should be pretty simple to try. Regards Rob From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Mon Jan 5 14:24:17 2015 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 13:24:17 -0700 (MST) Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: <03f801d0291c$b033c3f0$109b4bd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Have you tried buying a DS12887 as a replacement? They are supposed to be > drop-in replacements, and if yours is already socketed then it should be > pretty simple to try. Yes, I have two of them here. That will be the first attempt and fortunate then I will be able to stop there if I am lucky. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Jan 5 19:22:57 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 01:22:57 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: <20150104220343.6046818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150104220343.6046818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D45516@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 2:04 PM > From: Chuck Guzis >> I suspect that other languages have similar exercises, though >> I don't know what the Japanese do in Kanji. > Err, think you mean kana, right? (Kanji are the ideograms, there are over a ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > thousand in common use.) ... No, they are not. Kanji are *LOGOgrams*, expressing *words*, not *ideas*. (In fact, in Japanese they can express more than one word, given whether they are read as Japanese or one of several different Chinese pronunciations, of which kanon[1] and goon[2] are most common.) > ... There is something called the 'iroha': > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha > which is a poem which uses every element of the Japanese syllabary - and > exactly once! It was used to teach writing, no idea if it's used for the > keyboard thingy. A fellow graduate student in linguistics, a young lady from Japan, told me 35+ years ago that this poem was no longer used in schools, and that kana were taught with reference to a grid layout. She also characterized it as not very good poetry. Rich [1] "Han pronunciation", where orthographic represents a velar fricative like the German ach-laut [2] "Wu pronunciation", where the reconstructed Middle Chinese pronunciation of the character read as "wu" in Mandarin is [gwou] or [gwou?]. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 5 20:52:18 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 18:52:18 -0800 Subject: Logic Analyzers and In-Circuit Emulators Message-ID: <54AB4DE2.6090503@bitsavers.org> I spent the last week trying to document some of my analyzers and ICEs. There are tons of photos, firmware dumps and some new manuals on bitsavers under appliedMicrosystems, biomation, hmi, futuredata, hp/te hp/64000 and hp/64700. The HMI-200-68000 manual that arrived today had the 68K DOS software in the binder, zipped and up now under bits/HuntsvilleMicrosystems Has anyone ever noticed a pattern to the numbering on the underside of MMI PALs? It would be nice not to have to lift the labels off them. The ones I indentified were B7304 14L4 B7320 16L8 B7321 16R4 B7830 20S10 B7840 20L8 Most are protected. Every once and a while I found one that wasn't. I'd be interested in other AMC ICE firmware dumps to add to the archive. I've made some progress identifying the buses and what the various chunks of firmware are for. Next thing to do is trace the pinouts and see if the house-marked 6809 memory mapper is a MC6829. From looking at the manual, the HMI-200 is kind of interesting in that it can run without a target. The Applied Microsystems units require a 'null target' board. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 21:04:52 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 20:04:52 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyzers and In-Circuit Emulators In-Reply-To: <54AB4DE2.6090503@bitsavers.org> References: <54AB4DE2.6090503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 7:52 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Has anyone ever noticed a pattern to the numbering on the underside of MMI PALs? I think those are packaging lot numbers, so they may not have a 1:1 correspondence with part numbers. > Next thing to do is trace the pinouts and see if the house-marked 6809 > memory mapper is a MC6829. The Motorola SC67476 is apparently an MC6829. The SC prefix indicates that it was sold as a custom (or semi-custom) part, so it could have functional, electrical, or timing differences from the MC6829 specifications. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 21:22:31 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 19:22:31 -0800 Subject: Logic Analyzers and In-Circuit Emulators In-Reply-To: <54AB4DE2.6090503@bitsavers.org> References: <54AB4DE2.6090503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I spent the last week trying to document some of my analyzers and ICEs. > There > are tons of photos, firmware dumps and some new manuals on bitsavers under > appliedMicrosystems, biomation, hmi, futuredata, hp/te hp/64000 and > hp/64700. > The HMI-200-68000 manual that arrived today had the 68K DOS software in the > binder, zipped and up now under bits/HuntsvilleMicrosystems > As always your work is very appreciated. You have pictures now of the 10343B SCSI Bus Preprocessor. Have you found a copy of the Config/IA disk for that? The last time I looked at the manual for it I didn't think it was compatible with the Config/IA for the E2423A SCSI Bus Preprocessor (which is also the same thing as the FuturePlus FS2230). From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 22:01:58 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 22:01:58 -0600 Subject: SC008s Message-ID: I found a few while cleaning. If interested in making an offer please contact me off list. I think they all had mounting brackets and some terminators and jumpers. No nuts and bolts. Shipping from 61853 Thanks, Paul From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 21:57:05 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 21:57:05 -0600 Subject: Dataram, EEM (Electronics Memories & Magnetics) cross reference lists Message-ID: Does anyone have easy access to lists that cross reference 3ed party memories to DEC, DG, ETC? Thanks, Paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 5 22:27:06 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 23:27:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) Message-ID: <20150106042706.A513618C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rich Alderson > Kanji are *LOGOgrams*, expressing *words*, not *ideas*. Since this is a list about antique computers, not about the technical minutiae of written languages, I elected to use the word that would be familiar to non-specialists, i.e. 'ideogram' (with the common meaning, not the specialist one). >> There is something called the 'iroha' ... It was used to teach writing > this poem was no longer used in schools Which would be why I said it "was used to teach writing", not 'is used to teach writing'. Noel From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 06:31:25 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 07:31:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Catweasel support for N* Message-ID: Does anyone have a version of 'cwns' more recent than 0.01? It looks like Andrew Lynch wrote this, but Google did not turn up any work since 2007. It would be great to have a way to generate N* floppies on the CW card. Alternately, has Dave Dunfield's NST ever been ported to work on the Advantage? Google turns up nothing other then references to Kermit (not helpful for disk image transfer) or the Central Point Matchpoint card (unobtanium). I did find a disk image for Advantage N*DOS on Dunfield's site, which may have the ability to run the NST stub, but it presents a recursive problem in that I have no means to write it to a DS N* floppy. I do have a Horizon, but it's fitted with SSDD drives. Any suggestions or workarounds I'm overlooking? Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 06:10:46 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 07:10:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Logic Analyzers and In-Circuit Emulators In-Reply-To: <54AB4DE2.6090503@bitsavers.org> References: <54AB4DE2.6090503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 2015, Al Kossow wrote: > I spent the last week trying to document some of my analyzers and ICEs. There > are tons of photos, firmware dumps and some new manuals on bitsavers under > appliedMicrosystems, biomation, hmi, futuredata, hp/te hp/64000 and hp/64700. > The HMI-200-68000 manual that arrived today had the 68K DOS software in the > binder, zipped and up now under bits/HuntsvilleMicrosystems Let us know if you turn up documentation on a Zax ICD-378 68000/68010 ICE? I picked up one of these in mint condition at a flea market but, as is too often the case, without any manuals. It may have enough similarities to the Zax Z80 ICE to muddle through, but it would be great to find the docs. -- From david at attglobal.net Tue Jan 6 08:49:25 2015 From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 09:49:25 -0500 Subject: Catweasel support for N* In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54ABF5F5.9040703@attglobal.net> On 1/6/2015 7:31 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Does anyone have a version of 'cwns' more recent than 0.01? It looks > like Andrew Lynch wrote this, but Google did not turn up any work since > 2007. It would be great to have a way to generate N* floppies on the CW > card. Does it somehow not work for you? I have used it successfully to read, but I admit I'm not interested in writing. I too had a hard time pinning down the source, and there hasn't been any work done on it since then besides the following... > Any suggestions or workarounds I'm overlooking? I took the source and combined it with other Tim Mann-derived variants to communicate to the Mac driver model in this project: http://sourceforge.net/p/catweasel-osx/wiki/Home/ I didn't to much to his code besides fit it to the new backend, but I note that it doesn't implement nearly the number of switches it says it does: http://sourceforge.net/p/catweasel-osx/wiki/cwns/ From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 10:56:17 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 11:56:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Catweasel support for N* In-Reply-To: <54ABF5F5.9040703@attglobal.net> References: <54ABF5F5.9040703@attglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jan 2015, David Schmidt wrote: > On 1/6/2015 7:31 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Does anyone have a version of 'cwns' more recent than 0.01? It looks >> like Andrew Lynch wrote this, but Google did not turn up any work since >> 2007. It would be great to have a way to generate N* floppies on the CW >> card. > > Does it somehow not work for you? I have used it successfully to read, but I > admit I'm not interested in writing. I too had a hard time pinning down the > source, and there hasn't been any work done on it since then besides the > following... My impression from forum posts is that it was not operational. Reading N* is not a problem for me. The DeviceSide unit does that just fine, but I really need a way to generate diskettes. >> Any suggestions or workarounds I'm overlooking? > I took the source and combined it with other Tim Mann-derived variants to > communicate to the Mac driver model in this project: > http://sourceforge.net/p/catweasel-osx/wiki/Home/ > > I didn't to much to his code besides fit it to the new backend, but I note > that it doesn't implement nearly the number of switches it says it does: > http://sourceforge.net/p/catweasel-osx/wiki/cwns/ I saw that, but I'm not a Mac person. I'll see if 0.01 can do the trick. Thanks! Steve -- From js at cimmeri.com Tue Jan 6 11:03:23 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 12:03:23 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: <20150106042706.A513618C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150106042706.A513618C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54AC155B.1010807@cimmeri.com> Noel, those overly concerned with semantics will *always* jump at the chance to demonstrate their superior knowledge. Their knowledge is indeed superior, but their inate need to demonstrate it is just as great. On 1/5/2015 11:27 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rich Alderson > > > Kanji are *LOGOgrams*, expressing *words*, not *ideas*. > > Since this is a list about antique computers, not about the technical minutiae > of written languages, I elected to use the word that would be familiar to > non-specialists, i.e. 'ideogram' (with the common meaning, not the specialist > one). > > >> There is something called the 'iroha' ... It was used to teach writing > > > this poem was no longer used in schools > > Which would be why I said it "was used to teach writing", not 'is used to > teach writing'. > > Noel > > From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jan 6 11:09:10 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 17:09:10 +0000 Subject: OT: Re: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) (Kanji) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D45516@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20150104220343.6046818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D45516@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <3B549905-9CEE-479C-896F-53328EA857CA@swri.edu> On Jan 5, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > No, they are not. Kanji are *LOGOgrams*, expressing *words*, not *ideas*. > (In fact, in Japanese they can express more than one word, given whether > they are read as Japanese or one of several different Chinese pronunciations, > of which kanon[1] and goon[2] are most common.) That is a pretty interesting statement. There are many words in Japanese which are written as a combination of two or more kanji (possibly plus word endings, written out in hiragana). That to me fits a lot better with the description ?ideogram? than ?logogram? (based on the etymology of both descriptions). ?Ideogram? is also the description I have heard most often (by far). How does the ?logogram? description deal with combinations of kanji? - Mark From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Jan 6 11:52:39 2015 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 10:52:39 -0700 Subject: Catweasel support for N* In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AC20E7.3070604@e-bbes.com> On 2015-01-06 05:31, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Does anyone have a version of 'cwns' more recent than 0.01? It looks > like Andrew Lynch wrote this, but Google did not turn up any work since > 2007. It would be great to have a way to generate N* floppies on the CW > card. Andrew is on this list, so probably he will answer From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Jan 6 13:40:40 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 19:40:40 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: <54AC155B.1010807@cimmeri.com> References: <20150106042706.A513618C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54AC155B.1010807@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D48461@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: js at cimmeri.com Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2015 9:03 AM >> On 1/5/2015 11:27 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> From: Rich Alderson >>> Kanji are *LOGOgrams*, expressing *words*, not *ideas*. >> Since this is a list about antique computers, not about the technical minutiae >> of written languages, I elected to use the word that would be familiar to >> non-specialists, i.e. 'ideogram' (with the common meaning, not the specialist >> one). >>>> There is something called the 'iroha' ... It was used to teach writing >>> this poem was no longer used in schools >> Which would be why I said it "was used to teach writing", not 'is used to >> teach writing'. NB: I have moved js's top-posted comment to its correct place in the conversation. > Noel, those overly concerned with semantics will *always* jump at the chance > to demonstrate their superior knowledge. Their knowledge is indeed superior, > but their inate need to demonstrate it is just as great. Let me make an analogy that you will perhaps understand. Were Noel and I writing on a linguistics mailing list (say LINGUIST or ArcLing) and in a post I referred to a 2716 as a microprocessor, would Noel be "overly concerned with semantics" if he corrected me? And if I stated to a non-computer expert audience that germanium transistors were used to build computers, might Noel be forgiven for noting that that was in the 1960s, to give them an idea of time scale? I've spent 45+ years studying and working with computers. I've also spent 45+ years in linguistics, studying and working with languages and language. Rather than pandering to the misinformed by misusing terminology from either field, I use the correct terminologies in both and expect the same from others, and if there is a lapse somewhere, I expect it to be corrected. You will have seen me thanking others for correcting my own errors, as well, rather than defending them. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Jan 6 14:11:41 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 20:11:41 +0000 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) (Kanji) In-Reply-To: <3B549905-9CEE-479C-896F-53328EA857CA@swri.edu> References: <20150104220343.6046818C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D45516@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <3B549905-9CEE-479C-896F-53328EA857CA@swri.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D484A0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Tapley, Mark Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2015 9:09 AM > On Jan 5, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Rich Alderson > wrote: >> No, they are not. Kanji are *LOGOgrams*, expressing *words*, not *ideas*. >> (In fact, in Japanese they can express more than one word, given whether >> they are read as Japanese or one of several different Chinese pronunciations, >> of which kanon[1] and goon[2] are most common.) > That is a pretty interesting statement. There are many words in Japanese > which are written as a combination of two or more kanji (possibly plus word > endings, written out in hiragana). That to me fits a lot better with the > description "ideogram" than "logogram" (based on the etymology of both > descriptions). "Ideogram" is also the description I have heard most often > (by far). > How does the "logogram" description deal with combinations of kanji? When multiple kanji are used to write a Japanese word, they are often used not for their meanings but for their sounds. Even when used for their meanings, it is specific word meanings, not some numinous "idea", which are in play. The notion of "ideograms" goes back to mediaeval and Renaissance misunderstand- ings of Egyptian hieroglyphic writing, of which monumental examples such as "Cleopatra's needles" existed in Rome. The pictures of birds, mammals, serpents, etc. were taken as literal, and were supposed to put an image into the mind of the viewer such that the intended meaning should become clear. Even after the decipherment of Egyptian by Champollion, the same notion was still applied to the Chinese writing system and its descendants by a Western misunderstanding of its structure ("radical" + "phonetic", where the radical can, if forced, be viewed as ideogramatic, though that's not correct, either). Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From js at cimmeri.com Tue Jan 6 17:24:51 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 18:24:51 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D48461@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20150106042706.A513618C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54AC155B.1010807@cimmeri.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9D48461@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <54AC6EC3.5090209@cimmeri.com> On 1/6/2015 2:40 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > NB: I have moved js's top-posted > comment to its correct place in the > conversation. >> Noel, those overly concerned with semantics will *always* jump at the chance >> to demonstrate their superior knowledge. Their knowledge is indeed superior, >> but their inate need to demonstrate it is just as great. > Let me make an analogy that you will perhaps understand. > > Were Noel and I writing on a linguistics mailing list (say LINGUIST or ArcLing) > and in a post I referred to a 2716 as a microprocessor, would Noel be "overly > concerned with semantics" if he corrected me? There's a subtle difference here, though. The difference is that I (at least) understood what Noel was saying in his context, with almost zero knowledge of Japanese and *without* further elaboration, whereas I'm not sure someone with zero knowledge of computers would know what a "2716" even referred to, moreso in comparison to a microprocessor. I hear these same kinds of mistakes resulting from very loose (and improper) use of language all the time, especially in movies when someone with no knowledge of computers has written the script, and the script happens to refer to some technical aspect of computers. They almost always get the lingo wrong, but I doubt that the audience ever notices. The improper language works on the audience because the audience is just as clueless as the writer was. Same holds here. Because I'm clueless on Japanese, Noel's language worked for me, despite not being 100% accurate. So, in your example, if both parties are clueless re 2716 eproms and microprocessors, the language might *still* work for them... because in their context, accuracy is not inherently important to the message. > And if I stated to a non-computer expert audience that germanium transistors > were used to build computers, might Noel be forgiven for noting that that was > in the 1960s, to give them an idea of time scale? Different type of example, and here, I concur with you 100%. > I've spent 45+ years studying and working with computers. I've also spent 45+ > years in linguistics, studying and working with languages and language. Rather > than pandering to the misinformed by misusing terminology from either field, I > use the correct terminologies in both and expect the same from others, and if > there is a lapse somewhere, I expect it to be corrected. You will have seen me > thanking others for correcting my own errors, as well, rather than defending > them. To each his own, and you are certainly entitled to it. I just happen to be in perhaps the minority that finds tangential or off-subject elaborations to be tiresome. - J. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 6 21:56:01 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 22:56:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Another PDP-8 on eBay Message-ID: <20150107035601.4EE2E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Another one (an 8/L) starting at a reasonable price: http://www.ebay.com/itm/181630674348 Non-functional, but sounds like it might be close to running. Noel From bobvines00 at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 10:04:15 2015 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 11:04:15 -0500 Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure Message-ID: On Mon, 05 Jan 2015 13:24:17 -0700 (MST), you wrote: [snip] > On Mon, 5 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> Have you tried buying a DS12887 as a replacement? They are supposed to be >> drop-in replacements, and if yours is already socketed then it should be >> pretty simple to try. > > Yes, I have two of them here. That will be the first attempt and fortunate > then I will be able to stop there if I am lucky. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father > Athabasca University : but you have to earn > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" > ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston > Richard, Those chips have "battery-backed static RAM" according to their data sheet. Does your system store anything critical in them? If so, you may want to read & save that data so that you can put it back before you install the replacement chip (and add an external battery in a location where leakage won't cause serious damage in the future). I know that some Tektronix 'scopes store their calibration values in the (DS1297 or equal) chip's battery-backed RAM and it is critical to read the info and transfer it to the new chip *before* the original battery dies. Otherwise, you have to either pay ($$$) for or perform the entire re-calibration procedure yourself, if you have the necessary calibration equipment. However, since you said your battery was already dead and you have to reinstall VMS every time the system is powered down, I guess that your system doesn't store anything *critical* in that RAM. Bob From scaron at umich.edu Tue Jan 6 10:12:21 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 11:12:21 -0500 Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think you'll get too far trying to run VMS on a DECstation... ;) AFAIK the DECstations are 100% "hard power" and I think the MAC address is hard-coded, not in NVRAM i.e like in a Sun, or a SGI Indy, so you can probably just run the system as-is, it just won't autoboot and you get all those errors at power-up. I thought OP already tried swapping in the 12887 and it didn't work? I heard about those scopes on, EEVblog, I think. Yikes!! Best, Sean On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Bob Vines wrote: > On Mon, 05 Jan 2015 13:24:17 -0700 (MST), you wrote: > > [snip] > > On Mon, 5 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > >> Have you tried buying a DS12887 as a replacement? They are supposed to > be > >> drop-in replacements, and if yours is already socketed then it should be > >> pretty simple to try. > > > > Yes, I have two of them here. That will be the first attempt and > fortunate > > then I will be able to stop there if I am lucky. > > > > -- > > Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a > father > > Athabasca University : but you have to > earn > > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of > 'daddy'" > > ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston > > > > Richard, > > Those chips have "battery-backed static RAM" according to their data > sheet. Does your system store anything critical in them? If so, you > may want to read & save that data so that you can put it back before > you install the replacement chip (and add an external battery in a > location where leakage won't cause serious damage in the future). > > I know that some Tektronix 'scopes store their calibration values in > the (DS1297 or equal) chip's battery-backed RAM and it is critical to > read the info and transfer it to the new chip *before* the original > battery dies. Otherwise, you have to either pay ($$$) for or perform > the entire re-calibration procedure yourself, if you have the > necessary calibration equipment. > > However, since you said your battery was already dead and you have to > reinstall VMS every time the system is powered down, I guess that your > system doesn't store anything *critical* in that RAM. > > > Bob > From rickb at bensene.com Tue Jan 6 11:10:05 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 09:10:05 -0800 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 Message-ID: I have an RK05J drive that has been sitting around for a long time, and I want to prepare it for going back into service on my PDP 8/e system. Here's what I've done so far: - I have replaced the foam that isolates the blower motor from the housing, as it had started to deteriorate. - I vacuumed out the entire drive very carefully - I removed the head-lock that was put in when the drive was transported from its original location to my location - I ran the drive without a cartridge (and not connected to a system) for about 6 hours with the old absolute filter in place - I removed all of the circuit boards and cleaned the edge connectors and sockets - I tested all of the front panel lamps, and found all to be good - I replaced the absolute filter and ran the drive for another few hours to circulate air and get any last particles of stuff filtered out. - I very carefully cleaned the heads... they were extremely clean. I used a lint-free swap, and a commercial solution that I have that I've used for floppy disk head cleaning that seems to work well. I used this solution on the first RK05's heads, and it worked with no problems. However, the first drive was in service on the PDP 8/e when I got it, and was running fine. This second drive came off a PDP 11 system, and has been sitting for a very long time (years). I plan on running the drive without a pack in it for about 2 hours before I try loading a pack. I'm wondering if there is anything else that I should do before add the drive to the chain (this would be the second drive on the system)? I am also wondering, that since I have very few PDP8-sectored RK05 packs, and a ton of PDP-11 sectored packs, if , when I first power up the drive after it has been connected up to the RK8E , I can put one of my PDP 11 packs in there and spin it up, if the controller will be able to load the heads? I'd much rather sacrifice one of these packs if there are problems rather than risk one of my precious PDP-8 sectored packs. Thanks in advance for any suggestions/answers. Rick Bensene From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 12:59:57 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 18:59:57 +0000 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I am also wondering, that since I have very few PDP8-sectored RK05 packs, and a ton of PDP-11 sectored > packs, if , when I first power up the drive after it has been connected up to the RK8E , I can put one of my PDP 11 > packs in there and spin it up, if the controller will be able to load the heads? I'd much rather sacrifice one of > these packs if there are problems rather than risk one of my precious PDP-8 sectored packs. An RK05 will spin up and load the heads without a controller. It is a darn good idea to have a terminator fitted (otherwise noise on the interface lines can do interesting things, like cause write glitches, don't ask how I found that out). It does need a pack with the slotted hub so that the drive electronics can tell the drive is up to speed before it tries to load the heads. But obviously a 12 sector (PDP11) pack will do for that. So yes, you can use a PDP11 type of pack to see if the heads will fly even though the drive is on an RK8/E -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 6 15:31:02 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 21:31:02 -0000 Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04b101d029f8$123e10b0$36ba3210$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean > Caron > Sent: 06 January 2015 16:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts; Sean Caron > Subject: Re: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure > > I don't think you'll get too far trying to run VMS on a DECstation... ;) > > AFAIK the DECstations are 100% "hard power" and I think the MAC address is > hard-coded, not in NVRAM i.e like in a Sun, or a SGI Indy, so you can probably > just run the system as-is, it just won't autoboot and you get all those errors at > power-up. > > I thought OP already tried swapping in the 12887 and it didn't work? Sort of. I replaced it, and I got the same error. But.... I am not convinced the error is related to this device. Specifically the RTC tests pass. So not sure what the error is now. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 6 15:36:15 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 21:36:15 -0000 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <04b201d029f8$ccfdaeb0$66f90c10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 06 January 2015 19:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Resurrecting RK05 > > > > > That's a good idea. It should load heads with no problem, but should > > not be able to read or write. I would suggest going through all of the > > servo adjustments in the PM procedure but would advise you NOT do a > > head alignment. > > Can't some of the servo adjustments affect the exact point at which the servo > locks? > In other words you should really do a head alignment after adjusting them. > > Whatever you do don't put the alignment disk in as the first pack you try, for > very obvious reasons!. But if you have an alignment disk I see no reason not to > do the head alignment -- after you are sure the drive is OK. > > What I would do is to make sure it will spin up with a 12 sector pack (as those > are > common) and the heads fly, etc > It is good to know that RK05 packs for the PDP11 are common. I have an RK05 drive for my 11/45 but no packs. It is going to be a while before I get this machine going again, but if anyone in the UK has suitable packs they might be prepared to part with, it would be good to hear about it. Thanks Rob From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 6 09:21:41 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 07:21:41 -0800 Subject: Logic Analyzers and In-Circuit Emulators In-Reply-To: References: <54AB4DE2.6090503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54ABFD85.9010106@bitsavers.org> On 1/5/15 7:22 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > You have pictures now of the 10343B SCSI Bus Preprocessor. Have you > found a copy of the Config/IA disk for that? The last time I looked at > the manual for it I didn't think it was compatible with the Config/IA > for the E2423A SCSI Bus Preprocessor (which is also the same thing as > the FuturePlus FS2230). > I'll dig around. I also need to dump the eprom int he RS-232 preprocessor which also has an HP-IB connector. That may be handy if I start looking at CS-80 disk transactions. From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Tue Jan 6 11:13:53 2015 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 10:13:53 -0700 (MST) Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jan 2015, Sean Caron wrote: > I don't think you'll get too far trying to run VMS on a DECstation... ;) Yes, but the conversation became complicated. I have an Alphaserver 4100 which uses the same chip so the comparison was at that level. On the other hand, my AS4100 is a lousy platform for running Ultrix. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Tue Jan 6 11:17:48 2015 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 10:17:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: Understanding DECsystem 5100 Self Test Failure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jan 2015, Bob Vines wrote: > However, since you said your battery was already dead and you have to > reinstall VMS every time the system is powered down, I guess that your > system doesn't store anything *critical* in that RAM. Yes, whatever was in there is long gone. I don't care for chips with internal batteries, I don't like them in computers and I loath them in Tektronix test equipment - that is why my oscilloscope is a 547. There are lots of other Tek scopes that do not use a stupid chip with a battery but mine happens to be a 547. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 12:30:57 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 12:30:57 -0600 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rick, That's a good idea. It should load heads with no problem, but should not be able to read or write. I would suggest going through all of the servo adjustments in the PM procedure but would advise you NOT do a head alignment. Paul On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > I have an RK05J drive that has been sitting around for a long time, and I > want to prepare it for going back into service on my PDP 8/e system. > > Here's what I've done so far: > > - I have replaced the foam that isolates the blower motor from the > housing, as it had started to deteriorate. > - I vacuumed out the entire drive very carefully > - I removed the head-lock that was put in when the drive was transported > from its original location to my location > - I ran the drive without a cartridge (and not connected to a system) for > about 6 hours with the old absolute filter in place > - I removed all of the circuit boards and cleaned the edge connectors and > sockets > - I tested all of the front panel lamps, and found all to be good > - I replaced the absolute filter and ran the drive for another few hours > to circulate air and get any last particles of stuff filtered out. > - I very carefully cleaned the heads... they were extremely clean. I used > a lint-free swap, and a commercial solution that I have that I've used for > floppy disk head cleaning that seems to work well. I used this solution on > the first RK05's heads, and it worked with no problems. However, the first > drive was in service on the PDP 8/e when I got it, and was running fine. > This second drive came off a PDP 11 system, and has been sitting for a very > long time (years). > > I plan on running the drive without a pack in it for about 2 hours before > I try loading a pack. > > I'm wondering if there is anything else that I should do before add the > drive to the chain (this would be the second drive on the system)? > > I am also wondering, that since I have very few PDP8-sectored RK05 packs, > and a ton of PDP-11 sectored packs, if , when I first power up the drive > after it has been connected up to the RK8E , I can put one of my PDP 11 > packs in there and spin it up, if the controller will be able to load the > heads? I'd much rather sacrifice one of these packs if there are > problems rather than risk one of my precious PDP-8 sectored packs. > > Thanks in advance for any suggestions/answers. > > Rick Bensene > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 13:32:00 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 19:32:00 +0000 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > That's a good idea. It should load heads with no problem, but should not be > able to read or write. I would suggest going through all of the servo > adjustments in the PM procedure but would advise you NOT do a head > alignment. Can't some of the servo adjustments affect the exact point at which the servo locks? In other words you should really do a head alignment after adjusting them. Whatever you do don't put the alignment disk in as the first pack you try, for very obvious reasons!. But if you have an alignment disk I see no reason not to do the head alignment -- after you are sure the drive is OK. What I would do is to make sure it will spin up with a 12 sector pack (as those are common) and the heads fly, etc Then try a 'scratch' 16 sector pack. Format it (the RK05 does a true low-level format, of course), then read/write. If it has any problems, find out why, it is not head alignment Assuming it gets that far, then put the alignment disk in and check the head alignment. -tony From cramcram at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 15:36:51 2015 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 13:36:51 -0800 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would definitely replace the foam around the squarish tube that supplies air to the pack. That's the worst place for a foam particle to break off. On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:59 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > > I am also wondering, that since I have very few PDP8-sectored RK05 > packs, and a ton of PDP-11 sectored > > packs, if , when I first power up the drive after it has been connected > up to the RK8E , I can put one of my PDP 11 > packs in there and spin it > up, if the controller will be able to load the heads? I'd much rather > sacrifice one of > > these packs if there are problems rather than risk one of my precious > PDP-8 sectored packs. > > An RK05 will spin up and load the heads without a controller. It is a darn > good idea to have a terminator > fitted (otherwise noise on the interface lines can do interesting things, > like cause write glitches, don't ask > how I found that out). > > It does need a pack with the slotted hub so that the drive electronics can > tell the drive is up to speed before > it tries to load the heads. But obviously a 12 sector (PDP11) pack will do > for that. > > So yes, you can use a PDP11 type of pack to see if the heads will fly even > though the drive is on an RK8/E > > -tony > From isking at uw.edu Tue Jan 6 18:58:27 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 16:58:27 -0800 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keep in mind that the drive has an internal selector for drive number. Something tells me that a competition between two drives would not be a pretty thing. On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Marc Howard wrote: > I would definitely replace the foam around the squarish tube that supplies > air to the pack. That's the worst place for a foam particle to break off. > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:59 AM, tony duell > wrote: > > > > > > > I am also wondering, that since I have very few PDP8-sectored RK05 > > packs, and a ton of PDP-11 sectored > > > packs, if , when I first power up the drive after it has been > connected > > up to the RK8E , I can put one of my PDP 11 > packs in there and spin it > > up, if the controller will be able to load the heads? I'd much rather > > sacrifice one of > > > these packs if there are problems rather than risk one of my precious > > PDP-8 sectored packs. > > > > An RK05 will spin up and load the heads without a controller. It is a > darn > > good idea to have a terminator > > fitted (otherwise noise on the interface lines can do interesting things, > > like cause write glitches, don't ask > > how I found that out). > > > > It does need a pack with the slotted hub so that the drive electronics > can > > tell the drive is up to speed before > > it tries to load the heads. But obviously a 12 sector (PDP11) pack will > do > > for that. > > > > So yes, you can use a PDP11 type of pack to see if the heads will fly > even > > though the drive is on an RK8/E > > > > -tony > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jan 6 23:52:10 2015 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 21:52:10 -0800 Subject: Need AT&T 3B2/300 EPROM images to replace ones missing in my system Message-ID: <7A9CFC5B-1901-4AF4-8AE8-30C616985720@typewritten.org> Esteemed listmembers; I have started working on restoring a 3B2/300, and right away I've discovered the probable cause for the machine's catatonic state. Three of the system board EPROMs are missing. Anybody got a /300 they can dump the EPROMs on? For some reason the AATKL ROM (3/4) is still fitted, so technically speaking I only need images of the AATKJ (1/4), AATKK (2/4), and AATKM (4/4) EPROMs. I may also be after a copy of the AARAM (2/2) ROM from the NI (ethernet) board. My EPROM programmer can't get a good connection on pin 1 of that device and reads it as all zeros. It may still be okay in the socket on the board. ok bear. -- until further notice From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 7 07:25:15 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 14:25:15 +0100 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: <001301d02a77$2e5631e0$1403a8c0@HHE8> References: <001301d02a77$2e5631e0$1403a8c0@HHE8> Message-ID: <54AD33BB.1050107@update.uu.se> The standard RK8E do a select using just one pin, meaning you can have at most 4 drives on the system. The RK11 have a binary unit number encoding, meaning you can have 8 drives. There was also a version of the RK8 controller which did a binary unit selection. I don't remember the designation of that controller off my head at the moment. More fun is that the same pins were used for both binary and 1ofN selection. I don't remember how on earth this was detected/handled by the drives, as I don't remember anything beyond the unit setting rotary switch on one of the boards of the RK05. Ans in theory, you could have gone to 16 drives, since you had 4 pins. But then again, I wonder if it wasn't some clever design using the 4th pin as a way of indicating that the other 3 pins were a binary unit number by making sure that you never had just one signal active... Johnny On 2015-01-07 13:40, David Humphries wrote: > Also the selection method is different between pdp8 and the 11, one used > 1 of n and the other 3 binary digits, cant remember which is which but > do remember I had a bit of a fiddle getting my ex 11 drive to correctly > select on my 8. > DavH > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian S. King" > To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 12:58 AM > Subject: Re: Resurrecting RK05 > > >> Keep in mind that the drive has an internal selector for drive number. >> Something tells me that a competition between two drives would not be a >> pretty thing. >> >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Marc Howard wrote: >> >>> I would definitely replace the foam around the squarish tube that >>> supplies >>> air to the pack. That's the worst place for a foam particle to break >>> off. >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:59 AM, tony duell >>> wrote: >>> >>> > > >>> > > I am also wondering, that since I have very few PDP8-sectored RK05 >>> > packs, and a ton of PDP-11 sectored >>> > > packs, if , when I first power up the drive after it has been >>> connected >>> > up to the RK8E , I can put one of my PDP 11 > packs in there and >>> spin > it >>> > up, if the controller will be able to load the heads? I'd much > >>> rather >>> > sacrifice one of >>> > > these packs if there are problems rather than risk one of my >>> precious >>> > PDP-8 sectored packs. >>> > >>> > An RK05 will spin up and load the heads without a controller. It is a >>> darn >>> > good idea to have a terminator >>> > fitted (otherwise noise on the interface lines can do interesting > >>> things, >>> > like cause write glitches, don't ask >>> > how I found that out). >>> > >>> > It does need a pack with the slotted hub so that the drive electronics >>> can >>> > tell the drive is up to speed before >>> > it tries to load the heads. But obviously a 12 sector (PDP11) pack >>> will >>> do >>> > for that. >>> > >>> > So yes, you can use a PDP11 type of pack to see if the heads will fly >>> even >>> > though the drive is on an RK8/E >>> > >>> > -tony >>> > >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS >> Ph.D. Candidate >> The Information School >> University of Washington >> >> An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An >> engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 11:05:59 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 11:05:59 -0600 Subject: Identifying a 16k by 16 core memory board Message-ID: Does anyone know what this board would go to? It's a California Data Processors board, ca. 1978. http://imgur.com/a/AEfWX It was found packaged in a Data 100 Corporation cardboard box, but I am not convinced it really belongs in there. Thanks, Kyle From david at hheng.plus.com Wed Jan 7 06:40:50 2015 From: david at hheng.plus.com (David Humphries) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 12:40:50 -0000 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 References: Message-ID: <001301d02a77$2e5631e0$1403a8c0@HHE8> Also the selection method is different between pdp8 and the 11, one used 1 of n and the other 3 binary digits, cant remember which is which but do remember I had a bit of a fiddle getting my ex 11 drive to correctly select on my 8. DavH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian S. King" To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 12:58 AM Subject: Re: Resurrecting RK05 > Keep in mind that the drive has an internal selector for drive number. > Something tells me that a competition between two drives would not be a > pretty thing. > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Marc Howard wrote: > >> I would definitely replace the foam around the squarish tube that >> supplies >> air to the pack. That's the worst place for a foam particle to break >> off. >> >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:59 AM, tony duell >> wrote: >> >> > > >> > > I am also wondering, that since I have very few PDP8-sectored RK05 >> > packs, and a ton of PDP-11 sectored >> > > packs, if , when I first power up the drive after it has been >> connected >> > up to the RK8E , I can put one of my PDP 11 > packs in there and spin >> > it >> > up, if the controller will be able to load the heads? I'd much >> > rather >> > sacrifice one of >> > > these packs if there are problems rather than risk one of my precious >> > PDP-8 sectored packs. >> > >> > An RK05 will spin up and load the heads without a controller. It is a >> darn >> > good idea to have a terminator >> > fitted (otherwise noise on the interface lines can do interesting >> > things, >> > like cause write glitches, don't ask >> > how I found that out). >> > >> > It does need a pack with the slotted hub so that the drive electronics >> can >> > tell the drive is up to speed before >> > it tries to load the heads. But obviously a 12 sector (PDP11) pack will >> do >> > for that. >> > >> > So yes, you can use a PDP11 type of pack to see if the heads will fly >> even >> > though the drive is on an RK8/E >> > >> > -tony >> > >> > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS > Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > University of Washington > > An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An > engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 11:44:17 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 17:44:17 +0000 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: <54AD33BB.1050107@update.uu.se> References: <001301d02a77$2e5631e0$1403a8c0@HHE8>,<54AD33BB.1050107@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > > The standard RK8E do a select using just one pin, meaning you can have > at most 4 drives on the system. > The RK11 have a binary unit number encoding, meaning you can have 8 drives. The RK11-D (and I guess RKV11) use binary encoding on the select lines, so up to 8 drives on the cable. The RK11-C uses 1-of-n encoding (like the RK8E) and allows for 4 drives per cable. But the RK11-C has 2 cable connectors, so you can have 8 drives on it. The older RK02 and RK03 drives (Diablo model 30) used 1-of-n encoding only, and will not directly work with the RK11-D. I seem to remember a Plessey clone of the RK11-D which had an interface board in the disk cable slot which had a decoder IC on it to allow for 1-of-n selects. > More fun is that the same pins were used for both binary and 1ofN > selection. I don't remember how on earth this was detected/handled by > the drives, as I don't remember anything beyond the unit setting rotary > switch on one of the boards of the RK05. There was a pin on the drive interface connector which if high enabled 1-of-n selects (it was normally pulled high by the terminator). If pulled low (done by an RK11-D controller) the drive used binary selects. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 7 11:51:24 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 17:51:24 +0000 Subject: Identifying a 16k by 16 core memory board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AD721C.4060401@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/01/2015 17:05, Kyle Owen wrote: > Does anyone know what this board would go to? It's a California Data > Processors board, ca. 1978. > > http://imgur.com/a/AEfWX > > It was found packaged in a Data 100 Corporation cardboard box, but I am not > convinced it really belongs in there. The shape, size and edge connector style match a hex-height Unibus card for a PDP-11, and a quick look at the edge connectors shows bus grant jumpering where I'd expect it, and what look like poer and ground connections seem to match too. So I believe it's for a Unibus PDP-11. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu Wed Jan 7 12:17:35 2015 From: jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 12:17:35 -0600 Subject: Identifying a 16k by 16 core memory board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AD783F.3070903@email.wustl.edu> On 01/07/2015 11:05 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Does anyone know what this board would go to? It's a California Data > Processors board, ca. 1978. > > http://imgur.com/a/AEfWX > > It was found packaged in a Data 100 Corporation cardboard box, but I am not > convinced it really belongs in there. > > Thanks, > > Kyle > CalData made a PDP-11 emulator, totally unauthorized by DEC. A mediocre machine, but relatively affordable. We had a few of them at Washington University in St. Louis. DEC people would get hysterical when they saw it, and start backpedaling out of the room! Jon From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 14:11:28 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 14:11:28 -0600 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: <001301d02a77$2e5631e0$1403a8c0@HHE8> <54AD33BB.1050107@update.uu.se> Message-ID: I nave 2 RK11-C backplanes, a Diablo drive, and a Plessey controller here if anyone is interested. Feel free to make me an offer off list. On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 11:44 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > > The standard RK8E do a select using just one pin, meaning you can have > > at most 4 drives on the system. > > The RK11 have a binary unit number encoding, meaning you can have 8 > drives. > > The RK11-D (and I guess RKV11) use binary encoding on the select lines, so > up to > 8 drives on the cable. The RK11-C uses 1-of-n encoding (like the RK8E) and > allows > for 4 drives per cable. But the RK11-C has 2 cable connectors, so you can > have > 8 drives on it. > > The older RK02 and RK03 drives (Diablo model 30) used 1-of-n encoding only, > and will not directly work with the RK11-D. I seem to remember a Plessey > clone > of the RK11-D which had an interface board in the disk cable slot which > had a > decoder IC on it to allow for 1-of-n selects. > > > More fun is that the same pins were used for both binary and 1ofN > > selection. I don't remember how on earth this was detected/handled by > > the drives, as I don't remember anything beyond the unit setting rotary > > switch on one of the boards of the RK05. > > There was a pin on the drive interface connector which if high enabled > 1-of-n > selects (it was normally pulled high by the terminator). If pulled low > (done > by an RK11-D controller) the drive used binary selects. > > -tony > From alan at alanlee.org Wed Jan 7 16:35:29 2015 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 17:35:29 -0500 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs Message-ID: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> Does anyone have any past experience reverse engineering an existing de-populated PCB into a scan, netlist, or similar? Any lessons learned positive or negative? I have a AT&T 3B2 310/400 main board that is beyond salvaging into a working system. A previous owner has also removed the socketed parts including the Western Electric chip set. I'm unable to find working schematics of most of the 3B2 cards and main boards. So I'm considering bulk de-populating the remainder of the board in an oven and trying to derive a schematic from it. It's a fairly large board but appears to be 100% through hole. I roughly estimate it contains ~3500 through holes. And guessing it is 6-10 layers. Thus running it through a single vector x-ray machine would not be very useful. I've brain-stormed several ways it can be done from de-laminating the board, building a 2D bed of nails armature, mirroring the board holes on a new mated PCB with 3 dozen FPGAs, etc, etc. But I'm seeking advice from those who've done it already. Thanks, -Alan From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 7 16:55:52 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 14:55:52 -0800 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <54ADB978.1060808@bitsavers.org> On 1/7/15 2:35 PM, Alan Hightower wrote: > > > I'm seeking advice > from those who've done it already. > I've used a circuit beeper or an ohmmeter lots of times. Tony has even more experience than me. Logically, you form a block diagram of the functional blocks and data paths, trace those, then begin filling in the clocks and address decoders. You can generally come up with a map of the buffers for the address and data buses pretty quickly, then trace back things like chip select decoders. You don't need to strip the board to do this. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 20:13:10 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 20:13:10 -0600 Subject: Stromberg/Carlson, Okuma, Benning, and Computer Autumation Docs Message-ID: I'm going through boxes of documentation and have a pile 3 or 4 feet high that I don't need. My plan is to try to list some several times a week until it's gone. It varies, but most print sets have manuals and repair notes with them. They came from a repair depot. The pile of Stromberg is 6 to 8 inches high. I keep finding more. i can go through specifics over the phone, but don't really want to type everything. Feel free to contact me off list if you have any interest. There will be a few foot pile of DEC items, but i want to finish this first. Thanks, Paul From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 21:37:32 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 22:37:32 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Logs! Message-ID: I got one for my birthday: https://plus.google.com/104356262816556231009/posts/3GF1d8nQGQD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 23:57:01 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 05:57:01 +0000 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> Message-ID: > Does anyone have any past experience reverse engineering an existing > de-populated PCB into a scan, netlist, or similar? Any lessons learned > positive or negative? I've always done it by hand (and you don't need to depopulate the board). What you need is a continuity tester (which is not fooled by diode junctions), a pen and paper, and a lot of (pleasant) time. Start by removing anything that might fool the continuity tester. Switches, obviously, inductors, low value resistors, relays, etc. For 2-lead axial components, I just lift one end. Then make a list of all the ICs and sections on the board. So you end up with a list something like U1 a b c d e f '04 U2 6264 U3 '138 U4 6809E U5 a b c d '02 ... Now start from something that is either recognisable, or which is going to be used in one way. Obviously find power and ground first. Then, in the case of the above list of ICs, I would start with the 6809E CPU, since that will find address and data buses. Trace from there to the clock and reset circuits, on to bus buffers and memory. As you find each IC/section, cross it off the list so you don't do the same bit twice. Boards with recognisable LSI ICs (microprocessors, I/O devices, etc) are relatively easy in that such devices are used in essentially one way so you don't have too much to think about. Big boards of TTL or worse big boards of diodes/transistors are a lot worse. A 7400 NAND gate or a 2N3904 transistor can be used in so many different ways. I find that you get about 5 ICs (no matter what the complexity) on an A4 sheet of paper on average. It's relatively easy to trace connections (just buzz them out with the continuity tester), the trick is producing a readable schematic. This means (a) drawing bits so they are recognisable (a trivial example being a pair of cross-coupled NANDs making an SR flip-flop) and (b) using sensible names for signals. I find you have to really understand the unit to do this, which helps a lot with future repairs. So the time is invested rather than wasted. Anyway, when you have finished, feel free to make the schematic unreadable by redrawing it in a CAD system. -tony From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 00:33:53 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 04:33:53 -0200 Subject: Old Computer Logs! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ba-dum, tssss! :) On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:37 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > I got one for my birthday: > https://plus.google.com/104356262816556231009/posts/3GF1d8nQGQD > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 7 12:40:40 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 10:40:40 -0800 Subject: Identifying a 16k by 16 core memory board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AD7DA8.4090604@bitsavers.org> On 1/7/15 9:05 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Does anyone know what this board would go to? It's a California Data > Processors board, ca. 1978. > > http://imgur.com/a/AEfWX > > It was found packaged in a Data 100 Corporation cardboard box, but I am not > convinced it really belongs in there. > > Thanks, > > Kyle > > It is for a Cal-Data PDP-11 clone. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 7 12:44:56 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 10:44:56 -0800 Subject: Identifying a 16k by 16 core memory board In-Reply-To: <54AD7DA8.4090604@bitsavers.org> References: <54AD7DA8.4090604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54AD7EA8.3070101@bitsavers.org> On 1/7/15 10:40 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/7/15 9:05 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: >> Does anyone know what this board would go to? It's a California Data >> Processors board, ca. 1978. >> >> http://imgur.com/a/AEfWX >> >> It was found packaged in a Data 100 Corporation cardboard box, but I am not >> convinced it really belongs in there. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kyle >> >> > > It is for a Cal-Data PDP-11 clone. > > > > here's the manual http://bitsavers.org/pdf/calData/21518016_16kCoreMaint_Jun74.pdf From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 12:57:44 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 12:57:44 -0600 Subject: Identifying a 16k by 16 core memory board In-Reply-To: <54AD7EA8.3070101@bitsavers.org> References: <54AD7DA8.4090604@bitsavers.org> <54AD7EA8.3070101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > here's the manual > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/calData/21518016_16kCoreMaint_Jun74.pdf Wonderful! Looking at page 24 in this PDF ( http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/calData/CalData_Brochures_1974.pdf), I guess it's safe to assume that I can in fact put it in a DEC-brand Unibus as well? That'd be quite nice. Kyle From simski at dds.nl Wed Jan 7 16:41:59 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 23:41:59 +0100 Subject: olivetti programma 101 repair In-Reply-To: <54916463.4050200@dds.nl> References: <548DC820.7000702@dds.nl> <54916463.4050200@dds.nl> Message-ID: <54ADB637.70400@dds.nl> well, Good news always has some bad news as well. After careful examining of the 952 (no, not 850...) pins, I found 52 broken ones. As they are made of a gold plated springy metal wire, I needed to find a replacement. Size: 0,5mm diameter. Guitar wires are out. They are way to flexible. I opted for fosfor bronze wire, but could not find it in the shops in Amsterdam. Then I stubled upon a shop selling beads and stuff to make bracelets and earrings. They sell "memory wire", A very tough silver coated wire of 0.6mm. I have no idea what the alloy is, but the mechanical characteristics are not bad. The first clip I made fitted surprisingly good. now to find some time to bend another 51... Oh well. On 17-12-14 12:09, Simon Claessen wrote: > Hey all, > > Good news! I've located the problems with the machine and already have > fixed the mechanical part. The elctrical problem is bad contacts in the > edge connectors (a mere 850 pins...) and I got my first calculating > results on paper in the form of the square root of 6. :-) > > So ignore my earlier post on the scope probe path > > updates of course on the blog. > > On 14-12-14 18:25, Simon Claessen wrote: >> hello all, >> >> I'm in the process of repairing our 101 but i hit a solid wall finding >> out whats wrong with it. are there people with a working copy who could >> do some measurements on their copy? >> >> Unfortunately i have no schematic of the electronics, only the mechanics >> and PSU. >> >> I have made a crappy video of the scope trace of the delay line input >> and i'm very interested in a video of a working machine's delay line. :-) >> >> The video is here: http://youtu.be/llpwjGeldt0 >> >> and a partially repairlog is here: >> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Repair_Olivetti_Programma_101 >> >> als scematics are welcome as well. :-) > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 7 17:21:07 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 15:21:07 -0800 Subject: olivetti programma 101 repair In-Reply-To: <54ADB637.70400@dds.nl> References: <548DC820.7000702@dds.nl> <54916463.4050200@dds.nl> <54ADB637.70400@dds.nl> Message-ID: <54ADBF63.70704@sydex.com> On 01/07/2015 02:41 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: > well, > > Good news always has some bad news as well. After careful examining of > the 952 (no, not 850...) pins, I found 52 broken ones. As they are made > of a gold plated springy metal wire, I needed to find a replacement. > Size: 0,5mm diameter. > > Guitar wires are out. They are way to flexible. I opted for fosfor > bronze wire, but could not find it in the shops in Amsterdam. Then I > stubled upon a shop selling beads and stuff to make bracelets and > earrings. They sell "memory wire", A very tough silver coated wire of > 0.6mm. I have no idea what the alloy is, but the mechanical > characteristics are not bad. Drop in to a good musical instrument repair shop. Flutes, for instance, use phosphor bronze wire springs; clarinets tend to use stainless steel springs; dulcimer wire is typically phosphor bronze. I've even used harpsichord bronze wire to fashion pins to convert a SIMM to a SIPP. It solders well. An instrument repair shop is also an excellent place to fine flat blue steel springs. --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 20:24:41 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 21:24:41 -0500 Subject: Broken H724 power supply from PDP-8/e Message-ID: The H724 power supply in my PDP-8/e works OK for about 5 seconds and then the +5V output goes to about 3.0V. If I leave it on for a few more seconds it will blow the 20A fuse for the +5V output. I have the power supply partially disassembled and disconnected from the chassis. I don't see anything obviously fried. There are three ring terminals with two wires each connected to the + side of C205. Two of the wires get hot in just a few seconds. I have not disassembled the wire harness, but I suspect that they are the wires that go to the fuse holder. C205 is the output filter for +5V. The capacitor resistance goes above 3k Ohms if I leave the VOM connected for about 20 seconds, so the cap is not the 20A short. Should I just keep disassembling the power supply and tracing the warm wires? Anyone have experience repairing one of these power supplies? -- Michael Thompson From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 7 21:10:33 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 19:10:33 -0800 Subject: Broken H724 power supply from PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54ADF529.5060907@bitsavers.org> On 1/7/15 6:24 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The H724 power supply in my PDP-8/e works OK for about 5 seconds and then > the +5V output goes to about 3.0V. If I leave it on for a few more seconds > it will blow the 20A fuse for the +5V output. > sounds like something is firing the crowbar (Q207) From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Wed Jan 7 22:58:23 2015 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 05:58:23 +0100 Subject: Broken H724 power supply from PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <54ADF529.5060907@bitsavers.org> References: <54ADF529.5060907@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C87BF37-204A-4A95-8B7D-43C75CD568FB@familie-rauhut.eu> I think it is the Crowbar to... The voltage when it is fireingis adjustable. One time if i want to adjust 5V i adjusted the crowbar to less 5V ... And bang! 20A was blown... > Am 08.01.2015 um 04:10 schrieb Al Kossow : > >> On 1/7/15 6:24 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> The H724 power supply in my PDP-8/e works OK for about 5 seconds and then >> the +5V output goes to about 3.0V. If I leave it on for a few more seconds >> it will blow the 20A fuse for the +5V output. > > sounds like something is firing the crowbar (Q207) > From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 02:53:36 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 01:53:36 -0700 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:57 PM, tony duell wrote: > and a lot of (pleasant) time. I don't find it all that pleasant, but at least there's a sense of accomplishment when I'm done. > Anyway, when you have finished, feel free to make the schematic unreadable by redrawing it in a CAD > system. I just did that for the PSE Pacer CPU card. Is it unreadable? http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/pse/pacer/pac-mp-001.pdf From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jan 8 04:29:39 2015 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 11:29:39 +0100 Subject: Old Computer Logs! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AE5C13.1020607@update.uu.se> On 01/08/2015 04:37 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > I got one for my birthday: > https://plus.google.com/104356262816556231009/posts/3GF1d8nQGQD har har. I do believe we have service logs for Updates DECSYSTEM-20s. /P From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jan 8 06:01:47 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 12:01:47 +0000 (WET) Subject: Old Computer Logs! In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 07 Jan 2015 22:37:32 -0500" Message-ID: <01PH2PEDY36Y002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> > >I got one for my birthday: >https://plus.google.com/104356262816556231009/posts/3GF1d8nQGQD > Happy birthday. For me anyway, the link says: Join Google+ Share the right things with just the right people. Your browser configuration is not supported. Learn more Update to a more modern browser Dismiss Regards, Peter Coghlan. From david at attglobal.net Thu Jan 8 06:52:58 2015 From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 07:52:58 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Logs! In-Reply-To: <01PH2PEDY36Y002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PH2PEDY36Y002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <54AE7DAA.2040406@attglobal.net> On 1/8/2015 7:01 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> I got one for my birthday: >> https://plus.google.com/104356262816556231009/posts/3GF1d8nQGQD > > Happy birthday. > > For me anyway, the link says: > > Join Google+ Share the right things with just the right people. > > Your browser configuration is not supported. Learn more Update to a more > modern browser Dismiss Try wgetting this: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-T0_wpjVYELQ/VK29fWFGgSI/AAAAAAAAEv8/jBjELuZ-RAk/w565-h754-no/image%2B%281%29.jpg From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 07:05:48 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 08:05:48 -0500 Subject: Broken H724 power supply from PDP-8/e Message-ID: > > From: Al Kossow > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Broken H724 power supply from PDP-8/e > > On 1/7/15 6:24 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > > The H724 power supply in my PDP-8/e works OK for about 5 seconds and then > > the +5V output goes to about 3.0V. If I leave it on for a few more > seconds > > it will blow the 20A fuse for the +5V output. > > > > sounds like something is firing the crowbar (Q207) > Thanks Al and Marco. I saw Q207 when I inspected the power supply and wondered what that giant diode was for. I also saw it in the schematic and was surprised to see that the diode installed backwards. Now I see that it is an SCR, not a diode. R29 is easy to get to, so I will try raising the crowbar voltage a just little. It is also possible that the regulation of the +5V is not working correctly and the crowbar should be firing. -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 07:10:22 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 08:10:22 -0500 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 Message-ID: > > From: Johnny Billquist > Subject: Re: Resurrecting RK05 > > There was also a version of the RK8 controller which did a binary unit > selection. I don't remember the designation of that controller off my > head at the moment. > > Johnny > I believe that it is the RKS8 controller that can access 8 drives. -- Michael Thompson From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jan 8 07:20:15 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 14:20:15 +0100 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AE840F.8020107@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-08 14:10, Michael Thompson wrote: >> >> From: Johnny Billquist >> Subject: Re: Resurrecting RK05 >> >> There was also a version of the RK8 controller which did a binary unit >> selection. I don't remember the designation of that controller off my >> head at the moment. >> >> Johnny >> > > I believe that it is the RKS8 controller that can access 8 drives. That don't sound right, but my memory is hazy. I thought it is something like RK8F or similar... (I just searched, and found at least one reference to RK8-F anyway.) Oh well. I'm sure someone Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jan 8 07:27:41 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 14:27:41 +0100 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: <54AE840F.8020107@update.uu.se> References: <54AE840F.8020107@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54AE85CD.7070506@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-08 14:20, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-01-08 14:10, Michael Thompson wrote: >>> >>> From: Johnny Billquist >>> Subject: Re: Resurrecting RK05 >>> >>> There was also a version of the RK8 controller which did a binary unit >>> selection. I don't remember the designation of that controller off my >>> head at the moment. >>> >>> Johnny >>> >> >> I believe that it is the RKS8 controller that can access 8 drives. > > That don't sound right, but my memory is hazy. > I thought it is something like RK8F or similar... > (I just searched, and found at least one reference to RK8-F anyway.) > > Oh well. I'm sure someone And of course, I then stumbled upon RK8-L as well. :-) Johnny From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 8 09:38:34 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 15:38:34 +0000 Subject: Broken H724 power supply from PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AEA47A.1050202@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/01/2015 13:05, Michael Thompson wrote: > Thanks Al and Marco. > I saw Q207 when I inspected the power supply and wondered what that giant > diode was for. I also saw it in the schematic and was surprised to see that > the diode installed backwards. Now I see that it is an SCR, not a diode. > R29 is easy to get to, so I will try raising the crowbar voltage a just > little. It is also possible that the regulation of the +5V is not working > correctly and the crowbar should be firing. I had a similar problem when I converted a 110V version to 230V and tried to adjust the 5V regulator according to the PDP-8/E Maintenance Manual. Beware, for the later (ie, most common) version of the PSU the manual is wrong where it describes the location of the pots to adjust the voltages; it describes an early version of the regulators. As a result I adjusted the crowbar instead of the +5V and it took me a while to work out how to set the crowbar correctly as the manual only says it's a factory adjustment. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Thu Jan 8 09:45:30 2015 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 08:45:30 -0700 Subject: Answer: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) Message-ID: As many of you noted it is a phrase that contains every letter in the English language alphabet called a pangram. I first encountered this phrase in high school typing class. For me it became computer related when I was watching the Teletype repair man work on the KSR-35 attached to a PDP-8 sometime in 1974 or 75. I am sure it was something like that for many of you. Doug Ingraham PDP-8 S/N 1175 On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > Time for another trivia question. We will start off the year with an easy > one. This one is related to computers but not exclusive to computers. > > What is the significance of the phrase: > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. > > No fair looking it up on the internet. > > Doug Ingraham > PDP-8 S/N 1175 > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jan 8 10:03:26 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 16:03:26 +0000 (WET) Subject: Old Computer Logs! In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 08 Jan 2015 07:52:58 -0500" <54AE7DAA.2040406@attglobal.net> References: <01PH2PEDY36Y002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PH2XN41O6G002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> > >Try wgetting this: >https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-T0_wpjVYELQ/VK29fWFGgSI/AAAAAAAAEv8/jBjELuZ-RAk/w565-h754-no/image%2B%281%29.jpg > Thanks! I don't have a https capable wget or equivelant handy right now but that link works just fine if I paste it into the browser. I guess Google would prefer I install something they can make better use of to advertise to me or track me or something instead of sending me directly to that link. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 10:41:16 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:41:16 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Logs! In-Reply-To: <01PH2XN41O6G002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PH2PEDY36Y002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> <54AE7DAA.2040406@attglobal.net> <01PH2XN41O6G002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Such insidious behaviour from these social media barons. What's the preferred way to post photos around here, anyway? On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > >> Try wgetting this: >> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-T0_wpjVYELQ/VK29fWFGgSI/ >> AAAAAAAAEv8/jBjELuZ-RAk/w565-h754-no/image%2B%281%29.jpg >> >> > Thanks! > > I don't have a https capable wget or equivelant handy right now but that > link > works just fine if I paste it into the browser. > > I guess Google would prefer I install something they can make better use of > to advertise to me or track me or something instead of sending me directly > to that link. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 8 10:50:33 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:50:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Old Computer Logs! In-Reply-To: <01PH2XN41O6G002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PH2PEDY36Y002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> <01PH2XN41O6G002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <201501081650.LAA01395@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Try wgetting this: >> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-T0_wpjVYELQ/VK29fWFGgSI/AAAAAAAAEv8/jBjELuZ-RAk/w565-h754-no/image%2B%281%29.jpg > I don't have a https capable wget or equivelant handy right now but > that link works just fine if I paste it into the browser. It also works fine for me if I fetch it with HTTP instead of HTTPS. > I guess Google would prefer I install something they can make better > use of to advertise to me or track me or something instead of sending > me directly to that link. Certainly. As a friend of mine pointed out, Google is not in the search engine business or the app-making business, they are in the information gathering and advertising businesses. And if they can offer you all this stuff for no direct cost, apparently business is very, very good right now. You, the person trying to fetch something, are not Google's customer. You are (part of) Google's product, access to whom is being sold to Google's customers. Your happiness is relevant only in that you might leave entirely if you get too unhappy. It's discouraging how often people lose sight of that - or fail to realize it entirely. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From scaron at umich.edu Thu Jan 8 10:52:05 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:52:05 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Logs! In-Reply-To: References: <01PH2PEDY36Y002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> <54AE7DAA.2040406@attglobal.net> <01PH2XN41O6G002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: My personal favorite is just dropping a bunch of images in a directory and serving it up with Apache or some other HTTP server. Bonus points for HTML 3.2 thumbnail page fronting the whole thing. If a "cloud" service must be used... just speaking as a viewer... I find Flickr isn't too obnoxious. Even Instagram isn't horrible, ha ha. I'm probably not the only one here, but I don't use social media at all i.e. Facebook, Google Plus, etc. So for best accessibility, just anything that isn't behind one of these social media login-walls, please! Best, Sean On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Such insidious behaviour from these social media barons. What's the > preferred way to post photos around here, anyway? > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Peter Coghlan > wrote: > > > > >> Try wgetting this: > >> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-T0_wpjVYELQ/VK29fWFGgSI/ > >> AAAAAAAAEv8/jBjELuZ-RAk/w565-h754-no/image%2B%281%29.jpg > >> > >> > > Thanks! > > > > I don't have a https capable wget or equivelant handy right now but that > > link > > works just fine if I paste it into the browser. > > > > I guess Google would prefer I install something they can make better use > of > > to advertise to me or track me or something instead of sending me > directly > > to that link. > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 10:29:48 2015 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 16:29:48 +0000 Subject: Old Computer Logs! References: <01PH2PEDY36Y002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> <54AE7DAA.2040406@attglobal.net> <01PH2XN41O6G002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: One winter day after we moved into our house, my wife asked me if I had a log for the fireplace. The first thought inside my head was "She knows I'm a little detail crazy, but a log of that would be ridiculous". A few seconds later I figured it out. On Thu Jan 08 2015 at 11:25:07 AM Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >Try wgetting this: > >https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-T0_wpjVYELQ/VK29fWFGgSI/ > AAAAAAAAEv8/jBjELuZ-RAk/w565-h754-no/image%2B%281%29.jpg > > > > Thanks! > > I don't have a https capable wget or equivelant handy right now but that > link > works just fine if I paste it into the browser. > > I guess Google would prefer I install something they can make better use of > to advertise to me or track me or something instead of sending me directly > to that link. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Thu Jan 8 11:03:53 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:03:53 -0600 Subject: Old Computer Logs! In-Reply-To: References: <01PH2PEDY36Y002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> <54AE7DAA.2040406@attglobal.net> <01PH2XN41O6G002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On January 8, 2015 at 11:00:56 AM, Tony Aiuto (tony.aiuto at gmail.com) wrote: One winter day after we moved into our house, my wife asked me if I had a? log for the fireplace. The first thought inside my head was "She knows I'm? a little detail crazy, but a log of that would be ridiculous". A few? seconds later I figured it out.? A syslog server for your fireplace could be very useful! Logs put on. Log burn rate. Useful logs in percentages. Smoke content. Flue open/shut, etc. Cheers, m From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 11:12:49 2015 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 17:12:49 +0000 Subject: Old Computer Logs! References: <01PH2PEDY36Y002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> <54AE7DAA.2040406@attglobal.net> <01PH2XN41O6G002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: When I want to publish content to the world, I skip Google+ (and Facebook) and put it in Google Drive. Then I share that folder or document through a link. For example: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B5ASEpLy2sOeeDllczRXal9hdGc&usp=sharing and https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B5ASEpLy2sOeeDllczRXal9hdGc&usp=sharing You can wget those directly, without any authentication. On Thu Jan 08 2015 at 12:04:04 PM Mike Whalen wrote: > On January 8, 2015 at 11:00:56 AM, Tony Aiuto (tony.aiuto at gmail.com) > wrote: > > One winter day after we moved into our house, my wife asked me if I had a > log for the fireplace. The first thought inside my head was "She knows I'm > a little detail crazy, but a log of that would be ridiculous". A few > seconds later I figured it out. > A syslog server for your fireplace could be very useful! Logs put on. Log > burn rate. Useful logs in percentages. Smoke content. Flue open/shut, etc. > > > > > Cheers, > > m > > > From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Thu Jan 8 12:08:16 2015 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 12:08:16 -0600 Subject: olivetti programma 101 repair Message-ID: > Message: 16 >Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 15:21:07 -0800 >From: Chuck Guzis cclist at sydex.com >On 01/07/2015 02:41 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: >> Guitar wires are out. They are way to flexible. I opted for fosfor >> bronze wire, but could not find it in the shops in Amsterdam. Then I >> stubled upon a shop selling beads and stuff to make bracelets and >> earrings. They sell "memory wire", A very tough silver coated wire of >> 0.6mm. I have no idea what the alloy is, but the mechanical >> characteristics are not bad. > >Drop in to a good musical instrument repair shop. Flutes, for instance, >use phosphor bronze wire springs; clarinets tend to use stainless steel >springs; dulcimer wire is typically phosphor bronze. I've even used >harpsichord bronze wire to fashion pins to convert a SIMM to a SIPP. It >solders well. > >An instrument repair shop is also an excellent place to fine flat blue >steel springs. > >--Chuck A good model railroad hobby shop should also have phosphor bronze wire. It is used to model overhead wire for trolleys/trams. Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 13:34:15 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 19:34:15 +0000 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> , Message-ID: > > and a lot of (pleasant) time. > > I don't find it all that pleasant, but at least there's a sense of > accomplishment > when I'm done. I find that this is the quickest way to really understand how a machine works, so yes, it's pleasany while I am doing it. > > Anyway, when you have finished, feel free to make the schematic unreadable by redrawing it in a CAD > > system. > I just did that for the PSE Pacer CPU card. Is it unreadable? > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/pse/pacer/pac-mp-001.pdf I don't know why, but I find CAD diagrams with components one colour and wires a different colour to be very irritating. -tony From bobvines00 at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 09:23:42 2015 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 10:23:42 -0500 Subject: olivetti programma 101 repair Message-ID: On Wed, 07 Jan 2015 23:41:59 +0100, Simon Claessen wrote: > > well, > > Good news always has some bad news as well. After careful examining of > the 952 (no, not 850...) pins, I found 52 broken ones. As they are made > of a gold plated springy metal wire, I needed to find a replacement. > Size: 0,5mm diameter. > > Guitar wires are out. They are way to flexible. I opted for fosfor > bronze wire, but could not find it in the shops in Amsterdam. Then I > stubled upon a shop selling beads and stuff to make bracelets and > earrings. They sell "memory wire", A very tough silver coated wire of > 0.6mm. I have no idea what the alloy is, but the mechanical > characteristics are not bad. > > The first clip I made fitted surprisingly good. now to find some time to > bend another 51... > > Oh well. > [snip] Simon, "Memory wire" is also known as Nitinol, a nickel-titanium alloy . The Wikipedia page might give you the characteristics you may need. Bob From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jan 8 11:29:01 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 09:29:01 -0800 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marc Howard wrote: > > I would definitely replace the foam around the squarish tube that supplies > air to the pack. That's the worst place for a foam particle to break off. > Thanks, Marc, for this advice. I have fabricated a replacement for the foam that provides the coupling between the disk pack and the filtered air source. The original foam looked OK, but after a closer inspection, it was rather stiff, and probably wouldn't provide a good seal, not to mention the possibility a piece of it flaking off and getting into the clean space. If the stars align right, I am hoping to be able to get the drive cabled up and give it a try tonight. I will post and let the list know how things go when I get to this point. Thanks to all for the comments. -Rick From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 12:16:26 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:16:26 -0000 Subject: Old Computer Logs! In-Reply-To: References: <01PH2PEDY36Y002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> <54AE7DAA.2040406@attglobal.net> <01PH2XN41O6G002M1L@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <003b01d02b6f$386c99f0$a945cdd0$@gmail.com> I doubt it. Laziness perhaps in that they don't want to support older browsers. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jacob > Ritorto > Sent: 08 January 2015 16:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Old Computer Logs! > > Such insidious behaviour from these social media barons. What's the > preferred way to post photos around here, anyway? > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Peter Coghlan > wrote: > > > > >> Try wgetting this: > >> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-T0_wpjVYELQ/VK29fWFGgSI/ > >> AAAAAAAAEv8/jBjELuZ-RAk/w565-h754-no/image%2B%281%29.jpg > >> > >> > > Thanks! > > > > I don't have a https capable wget or equivelant handy right now but > > that link works just fine if I paste it into the browser. > > > > I guess Google would prefer I install something they can make better > > use of to advertise to me or track me or something instead of sending > > me directly to that link. > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 8 14:30:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 12:30:14 -0800 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> , Message-ID: <54AEE8D6.5090805@sydex.com> On 01/08/2015 11:34 AM, tony duell wrote: > I don't know why, but I find CAD diagrams with components one colour and wires > a different colour to be very irritating. My personal gripe is with the schematic diagrams that look like visual netlists--ICs with terminal points marked, but no or few actual wires drawn. Downright hell trying to figure out how the thing works. Anent this, does anyone know of a good software package that converts netlists to honest schematics? I know that there's one for pSPICE, but I'd like one that can take a plain old test file and do the drawing. Sort of a troff for schematics... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 14:45:21 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 20:45:21 +0000 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: <54AEE8D6.5090805@sydex.com> References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> , , <54AEE8D6.5090805@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > My personal gripe is with the schematic diagrams that look like visual > netlists--ICs with terminal points marked, but no or few actual wires > drawn. Downright hell trying to figure out how the thing works. It's difficult. Long 'wires' that go from one side of the schematic to the other can be very hard to follow too. I think it helps if the schematic is drawn as a set of functional blocks with the inputs and outputs given sensible names. But anybody who draws an SR flip-flop as anything other than a pair of NANDs (or NORs) with the obvious cross coupling shown as wires is going to get a LART... (OK, a cross-coupled AND and OR is OK if applicable). Taste in schematics is obviously a very personal thing, but in general I find the modern CAD-produced schematics to be a lot harder to follow, for many reason than the older ones. -tony From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 13:43:15 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 14:43:15 -0500 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> , Message-ID: <3B72589E5F164238BFAE43E06C99914A@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "tony duell" Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2015 2:34 PM > > Anyway, when you have finished, feel free to make the schematic > > unreadable by redrawing it in a CAD > > system. > I just did that for the PSE Pacer CPU card. Is it unreadable? > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/pse/pacer/pac-mp-001.pdf I don't know why, but I find CAD diagrams with components one colour and wires a different colour to be very irritating. -tony ----- Reply ----- +1 Also very hard to print on a B&W printer... From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Jan 8 15:00:44 2015 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 21:00:44 +0000 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <20150108210044.GA19940@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Jan 07, 2015 at 05:35:29PM -0500, Alan Hightower wrote: > Does anyone have any past experience reverse engineering an existing > de-populated PCB into a scan, netlist, or similar? Any lessons learned > positive or negative? Your many-layer board is far too complex for this wheeze, but back when I was actually doing electronics for a living, a board I needed to reverse-engineer was a two-layer affair and so I chucked it onto the office photocopier and cranked up the enlarger. After a few rounds of re-copying the empty board, I had several A3 sheets that had high contrast and were big enough to annotate with components (from inspecting a populated board) and their values. From there, it became reasonably simple to draw a proper schematic. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Thu Jan 8 18:54:23 2015 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 00:54:23 +0000 Subject: Novell NetDevice NAS? Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768A6F94F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Any ex-NetWare guys on here? Anyone ever see or hear of a product called Novell NetDevice NAS? Ever used it? Thanks! -Ben From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jan 8 19:32:44 2015 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 17:32:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Making Sergey's XT-CF-Lite board work Message-ID: I ordered a couple XT-CF-Lite boards as described in http://www.malinov.com/Home/sergeys-projects/xt-cf-lite. Has anyone else here built and used this? I have a problem with the BIOS. Either Sergey specified the wrong size EEPROM or provided the wrong BIOS image. The specified EEPROM holds 8192 bytes while the BIOS image is 32,768 bytes. I sent an email to Sergey, but I thought I'd ask here too. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jan 8 20:01:51 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:01:51 -0800 Subject: Novell NetDevice NAS? In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768A6F94F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768A6F94F@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <20150108180151.2351b9b6@asrock.bcwi.net> On Fri, 9 Jan 2015 00:54:23 +0000 Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Any ex-NetWare guys on here? > > Anyone ever see or hear of a product called Novell NetDevice NAS? Sure, a former "incarnation" of my company was a long time Novell VAR. Here's a good description of Novell NetDevice NAS from Novell marketing: http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=94433 > Ever used it? Nope. The concept was - create your own Server/NAS - but that's kinda what Novell always had been (after they moved away from providing hardware...) Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 8 20:06:21 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 02:06:21 +0000 Subject: Making Sergey's XT-CF-Lite board work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AF379D.4070203@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/01/2015 01:32, David Griffith wrote: > > I ordered a couple XT-CF-Lite boards as described in > http://www.malinov.com/Home/sergeys-projects/xt-cf-lite. Has anyone > else here built and used this? I have a problem with the BIOS. Either > Sergey specified the wrong size EEPROM or provided the wrong BIOS > image. The specified EEPROM holds 8192 bytes while the BIOS image is > 32,768 bytes. I sent an email to Sergey, but I thought I'd ask here too. I downloaded it to look: only the first 8K is used. The rest is all 0xFF, ie blank. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From alan at alanlee.org Thu Jan 8 20:35:53 2015 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 21:35:53 -0500 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> Message-ID: I appreciate all the input from folks. With 3600 though holes and at least 4 layers, I'm afraid I will make mistakes using any manual method like ohm tracing without a check or balance. With so many permutations and little personal knowledge about the WE chipset, I'm sure I will miss an occasional trace that shoots to the other side of the board. I'm also worried that I might generate a false positive keeping most of the components wired. Something akin to body diodes (yes I know this isn't CMOS). Here is a wiki photo of the board for reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3B_series_computers#mediaviewer/File:3b2-300-motherboard.jpg As I said the board isn't very useful in it's current state. So I will start by dropping the components off and removing the solder mask with a sanding pen. I've had good luck in the past photo transferring a scanned image of the board into eCAD with contrast enhancement. That will at least get me the top and bottom layers with good accuracy. If manual tracing of inner layers proves to laborious, I'll revisit automated methods. To add to Chuck's question, I've thought about that too. With the open nature of KiCAD and Eagle file formats, it should be straight forward to generate a schematic from a text netlist (or even IPC-D-356). Especially since both contain definitions for the referenced schematic symbols. eg you can synth a 'generic' DIP-16-U symbol to go with that yet to be defined part in any library. Thanks again. On 2015-01-08 03:53, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:57 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> and a lot of (pleasant) time. > > I don't find it all that pleasant, but at least there's a sense of > accomplishment > when I'm done. > >> Anyway, when you have finished, feel free to make the schematic unreadable by redrawing it in a CAD system. > > I just did that for the PSE Pacer CPU card. Is it unreadable? > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/pse/pacer/pac-mp-001.pdf [1] Links: ------ [1] http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/pse/pacer/pac-mp-001.pdf From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 20:47:41 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 00:47:41 -0200 Subject: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 Message-ID: Just in case someone is curious, there is another brazilian computer dissected, the CP200 (ZX81 clone) from Prologica www.tabalabs.com.br Greetings from Brazil! Alexandre From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jan 8 22:17:24 2015 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 20:17:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Found an EEPROM programmer that works with Linux Message-ID: I just thought I'd let everyone know, for the record, that I found an inexpensive USB-interfaced EEPROM programmer that works with Linux. This is the Model TL866CS which is often sold as "MiniPro Programmer". These can be found on Ebay for around $50. It feels substantial and solidly built. The software I used to control it can be found at https://github.com/vdudouyt/minipro. The software has some nits[1] but it does work. There's a QT-based front-end at https://github.com/wd5gnr/qtl866. That one has a potential showstopper bug in that it does not surround the device name with quotes when calling the minipro software. So, for those of you (like me) who have posted from time to time looking for a chipburner that works with Linux, here's a solution. [1] udev rules aren't installed in the right place. No option to emit a list of supported devices. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 9 00:06:02 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 06:06:02 +0000 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> , Message-ID: > I appreciate all the input from folks. With 3600 though holes and at > least 4 layers, I'm afraid I will make mistakes using any manual method > like ohm tracing without a check or balance. With so many permutations > and little personal knowledge about the WE chipset, I'm sure I will miss > an occasional trace that shoots to the other side of the board. I'm also > worried that I might generate a false positive keeping most of the > components wired. Something akin to body diodes (yes I know this isn't > CMOS). Here is a wiki photo of the board for reference: It would actually worry me more if a computer was tracing the connections (as you suggest) rather than a person. A clueful person will spot obvious errors, like outputs linked together, lines with nothing driving them, circuits that could never be enabled, etc. I suspect a computer could be got to flag the more obvious ones, but not all. And you are much more likely to spot errors as you go than by looking over the diagrams afterwards. I mentioned using a good continuity tracer that is not fooled by diodes. This will handle any parasitic junctions in ICs, etc. If you get to know the instrument you will not have problems from false positives. -tony From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 8 17:58:10 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 15:58:10 -0800 Subject: Proud owner of a SDK-86, now what Message-ID: I got this off of the auction site, listed as untested. It came in today, looks in beautiful condition, and powers up just fine, with the 86 1.1 message on the display. I have the 'Microcomputer Experiments With the SDK-86, Leventhal' book headed my way. I have not been able to find much else - any suggestions for fun projects with this? Randy From mhs20165 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 8 17:58:26 2015 From: mhs20165 at yahoo.com (Martin Smoot) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 15:58:26 -0800 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs Message-ID: <1420761506.5818.YahooMailBasic@web122101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> google "instant input assembler" and you may find more information. the book was "16-bit microprocessor architecture" by Terry Dollhoff - written in 1979. google "16 bit microprocessor architecture" and you may find links. the book may be available on Amazon and other places. possibly interesting reference to the computer it was installed on at http://archive.org/stream/kilobaudmagazine-1979-07/Kilobaud_Microcomputing_1979_July_djvu.txt - look for "instant input" - they talk about the computer it came on. that company (Technico) has been out of business since sometime in the early 1980s. From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Thu Jan 8 23:16:18 2015 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 00:16:18 -0500 Subject: DTSS Simulator BASIC Programming Contest - 2015 CoCoFEST Message-ID: <008c01d02bcb$668dd130$33a97390$@sc.rr.com> Hi Everyone! Here is a reminder that the Glenside Color Computer Club is holding a BASIC Programming Contest using the Dartmouth Time Sharing System Simulator honoring the Creation of the BASIC Computer Programming Language at the 2015 CoCoFEST this April 25-26, 2015 in Lombard, IL at the Heron Point Building. See the link below for details of the Contest and click on ?CoCoFEST? on the left for further details of the CoCoFEST itself. http://www.glensideccc.com/cocofest/events.shtml I?m looking forward to seeing you at the CoCoFEST! Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 00:33:57 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 00:33:57 -0600 Subject: Found an EEPROM programmer that works with Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the tip, David - Linux-friendly hardware is always Good News! But might you provide a little more information? Searching eBay for "TL866CS", dozens of listings turn-up, each offering different combinations of adapters, cables and other ancillary items in addition to the chip burner itself. Could you offer a little more info on what's what, why one might select one set / sub-set / super-set of parts over another, and so forth? On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:17 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I just thought I'd let everyone know, for the record, that I found an > inexpensive USB-interfaced EEPROM programmer that works with Linux. This > is the Model TL866CS which is often sold as "MiniPro Programmer". These > can be found on Ebay for around $50. It feels substantial and solidly > built. > > The software I used to control it can be found at > https://github.com/vdudouyt/minipro. The software has some nits[1] but > it does work. There's a QT-based front-end at https://github.com/wd5gnr/ > qtl866. That one has a potential showstopper bug in that it does not > surround the device name with quotes when calling the minipro software. > > So, for those of you (like me) who have posted from time to time looking > for a chipburner that works with Linux, here's a solution. > > [1] udev rules aren't installed in the right place. No option to emit a > list of supported devices. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 9 01:11:17 2015 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 01:11:17 -0600 Subject: Found an EEPROM programmer that works with Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AF7F15.7090900@jbrain.com> On 1/8/2015 10:17 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > > [1] udev rules aren't installed in the right place. No option to emit > a list of supported devices. DO you have a writeup on how to fix the issue? Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jan 9 01:35:30 2015 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 23:35:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Found an EEPROM programmer that works with Linux In-Reply-To: <54AF7F15.7090900@jbrain.com> References: <54AF7F15.7090900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jan 2015, Jim Brain wrote: > On 1/8/2015 10:17 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> [1] udev rules aren't installed in the right place. No option to emit a >> list of supported devices. > DO you have a writeup on how to fix the issue? I made a pull-request, which was accepted, for some work on the manpage and emitting a list of supported devices. I'm monkeying around with the udev settings now. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 9 08:53:45 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 06:53:45 -0800 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <54AFEB79.3080706@bitsavers.org> On 1/8/15 6:35 PM, Alan Hightower wrote: > > > I appreciate all the input from folks. With 3600 though holes and at > least 4 layers, I'm afraid I will make mistakes using any manual method > like ohm tracing without a check or balance. With so many permutations > and little personal knowledge about the WE chipset, I'm sure I will miss > an occasional trace that shoots to the other side of the board. Looking at the picture, it isn't that hard to decompose what's there into functional blocks. At that density, the PC layout guy will have kept the parts that are closely related together. You have an expansion bus interface on the left with bus buffering, HD controller, UART, floppy interfaces and a DMA controller for it on the top, processor upper right, four eproms, so there is a 32 bit data bus, and some sort of memory interface coming out the bottom. Get the SYS V driver sources and headers from Seth, that will tell you what the interrupts and DMA channels are hooked to and where the peripherals are mapped. Start with the CPU and trace the address and data bus paths. You don't need to buzz out every pin, just identify what buffer is connected to what and start ticking off the ICs from the top board layout out through the peripherals, expansion bus, and memory bus. Once that's done, you'll have decoders, state machines and glue logic which should be functionally associated with one of the big blocks. It doesn't look like there are many bipolar proms or PLA/PALs I see one 82S153 sequencer near the CPU, but Signetics parts (82S100, 105, 153) don't have protection fuses. I have one document that I haven't put on line yet that I think describes the expansion bus, I'll try to get that uploaded today. Is there a description somewhere of what the various 3B2 CPU boards had on them or what the memory board looks like? It's a drag the guy on eBay wants so much for the docs they've listed. From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 09:31:52 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 16:31:52 +0100 Subject: Found an EEPROM programmer that works with Linux In-Reply-To: References: <54AF7F15.7090900@jbrain.com> Message-ID: There is also this open source firmware and firmware updater tool for the TL866A / TL866CS: https://github.com/radiomanV/TL866. I have no idea how complete it is. There is also a reverse engineered schematic on it: https://github.com/radiomanV/TL866/blob/master/docs/TL866.pdf /Mattis 2015-01-09 8:35 GMT+01:00 David Griffith : > On Fri, 9 Jan 2015, Jim Brain wrote: > > On 1/8/2015 10:17 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> >>> [1] udev rules aren't installed in the right place. No option to emit a >>> list of supported devices. >>> >> DO you have a writeup on how to fix the issue? >> > > I made a pull-request, which was accepted, for some work on the manpage > and emitting a list of supported devices. I'm monkeying around with the > udev settings now. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 08:28:28 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 12:28:28 -0200 Subject: Proud owner of a SDK-86, now what In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have one too, but never got it to work. I believe some of the 2104 memories are fried. Lazy as I am, I still need to make an adapter for a 6116 or something. On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > I got this off of the auction site, listed as untested. It came in today, > looks in beautiful condition, and powers up just fine, with the 86 1.1 > message on the display. I have the 'Microcomputer Experiments With the > SDK-86, Leventhal' book headed my way. > > I have not been able to find much else - any suggestions for fun projects > with this? > > Randy > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 9 09:38:29 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 07:38:29 -0800 Subject: B & C Microsystems Message-ID: <54AFF5F5.2070201@bitsavers.org> Was digging though storage this week and found a B&C Proteus. Did anyone save the contents of their BBS? I see I scanned the manual for the 1409 at some point, but I don't seem to have any other docs or software from them. From alan at alanlee.org Fri Jan 9 10:12:34 2015 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 11:12:34 -0500 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs (wrt: 3B2 main board schematics) In-Reply-To: <54AFEB79.3080706@bitsavers.org> References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> <54AFEB79.3080706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: There are actually twelve Signetics '153 PLAs, two registered 16R4s, and a custom 18-pin ASIC that doesn't have a part number at all. So some info will need to be derived through inference. Just the 12 combinatorial parts alone will need to be de-soldered to pull either fuses or an observed truth table. So much programmable logic on the board and the high density complicates functional level tracing. Memory is actually on the left and the expansion bus is on the bottom. Power comes down through the bottom back-plane from the PSU. Manual is doable. It's just time consuming. The nice thing is all components are layed out on a perfect 100 mil grid. I already have a perfect board layout in eCAD with correct offsets for 100% of the 4,009 holes, including 7 mounting holes, just by looking at the board. I was hoping to find someone on cctalk with a short-cut, beyond the traditional methods I had already considered and you have echoed, for doing the rest. I'm still looking at using a friend's home brew CNC step table and a couple pogo pins to automate net-list creation. But we'll see. I have a few more boards beyond the main board that I will trace in-circuit by hand before I do the main board; for practice. Most option cards are essentially complete 80186 PCs on each card! (PORTS, EPORTS, QIC TAPE, StarLAN NAU, etc). AT&T must have reused the 80186 design on everything for NRE cost reasons. There doesn't seem to be any archived copy of the AT&T 305-490 "3B2 Computer Technical Reference Manual" anywhere nor any indication if it included board schematics. Beyond that, I cannot find a hint of anything previously archived that would have schematic level information on any 3B2 computer. That's why I'm doing this. I know of Seth's work. I pulled ROM images for him which started me down this rabbit hole! Otherwise my 3B2s would be quietly rusting in the basement! Thanks for the feedback. On 2015-01-09 09:53, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/8/15 6:35 PM, Alan Hightower wrote: > >> I appreciate all the input from folks. With 3600 though holes and at least 4 layers, I'm afraid I will make mistakes using any manual method like ohm tracing without a check or balance. With so many permutations and little personal knowledge about the WE chipset, I'm sure I will miss an occasional trace that shoots to the other side of the board. > > Looking at the picture, it isn't that hard to decompose what's there into > functional blocks. At that density, the PC layout guy will have kept the > parts that are closely related together. You have an expansion bus interface > on the left with bus buffering, HD controller, UART, floppy interfaces and a > DMA controller for it on the top, processor upper right, four eproms, so there > is a 32 bit data bus, and some sort of memory interface coming out the bottom. > > Get the SYS V driver sources and headers from Seth, that will tell you what the > interrupts and DMA channels are hooked to and where the peripherals are mapped. > > Start with the CPU and trace the address and data bus paths. You don't need to > buzz out every pin, just identify what buffer is connected to what and start > ticking off the ICs from the top board layout out through the peripherals, > expansion bus, and memory bus. Once that's done, you'll have decoders, state > machines and glue logic which should be functionally associated with one of > the big blocks. It doesn't look like there are many bipolar proms or PLA/PALs > I see one 82S153 sequencer near the CPU, but Signetics parts (82S100, 105, 153) > don't have protection fuses. > > I have one document that I haven't put on line yet that I think describes the > expansion bus, I'll try to get that uploaded today. > > Is there a description somewhere of what the various 3B2 CPU boards had on them > or what the memory board looks like? > > It's a drag the guy on eBay wants so much for the docs they've listed. From scaron at umich.edu Fri Jan 9 09:53:14 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 10:53:14 -0500 Subject: Proud owner of a SDK-86, now what In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If it fires up OK, pretty much all you should need to get going is an ASM programmer's reference for the 8086 and some idea of what the memory map is on that SBC... you can probably find both floating around on Bitsavers or something. Intel did the H/W design on this one so you can just focus on writing software ;) If you are looking for more resources, I have a number of these books from Merrill Publishing... there is one about the 8086/8088 in particular, "8086/8088 Microprocessor: Architecture, Programming and Interfacing" by Brey, might be worth checking out... I don't own that particular title, but I own several other titles from the same publishing house and they are all pretty good. What you can do is limited only by your imagination! If I were you, I'd probably start out trying to interface a UART, get a little monitor running on a TTY, and go from there :) Best, Sean On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > I have one too, but never got it to work. I believe some of the 2104 > memories are fried. Lazy as I am, I still need to make an adapter for a > 6116 or something. > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Randy Dawson > wrote: > > > I got this off of the auction site, listed as untested. It came in > today, > > looks in beautiful condition, and powers up just fine, with the 86 1.1 > > message on the display. I have the 'Microcomputer Experiments With the > > SDK-86, Leventhal' book headed my way. > > > > I have not been able to find much else - any suggestions for fun projects > > with this? > > > > Randy > > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 9 09:54:40 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 07:54:40 -0800 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs (wrt: 3B2 main board schematics) In-Reply-To: References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> <54AFEB79.3080706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54AFF9C0.5000603@bitsavers.org> On 1/9/15 8:12 AM, Alan Hightower wrote: > There doesn't seem to be any archived copy of the AT&T 305-490 "3B2 > Computer Technical Reference Manual" anywhere nor any indication if it > included board schematics. Beyond that, I cannot find a hint of anything > previously archived that would have schematic level information on any > 3B2 computer. That's why I'm doing this. > In post-processing the I/O bus spec, I see there is a block diagram of the CPU board in there From scaron at umich.edu Fri Jan 9 09:58:34 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 10:58:34 -0500 Subject: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool! I really enjoy your site, even if I can't read Portuguese :) Good pics. Best, Sean On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > Just in case someone is curious, there is another brazilian computer > dissected, the CP200 (ZX81 clone) from Prologica > > www.tabalabs.com.br > > Greetings from Brazil! > Alexandre > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Jan 9 09:55:37 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 10:55:37 -0500 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: <1420761506.5818.YahooMailBasic@web122101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1420761506.5818.YahooMailBasic@web122101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you! Added to my Amazon wishlist for next time I do a big batch order. Best, Sean On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Martin Smoot wrote: > google "instant input assembler" and you may find more information. > > the book was "16-bit microprocessor architecture" by Terry Dollhoff - > written in 1979. > > google "16 bit microprocessor architecture" and you may find links. > > the book may be available on Amazon and other places. > > possibly interesting reference to the computer it was installed on at > > > http://archive.org/stream/kilobaudmagazine-1979-07/Kilobaud_Microcomputing_1979_July_djvu.txt > > - look for "instant input" - they talk about the computer it came on. > that company (Technico) has been out of business since sometime in the > early 1980s. > > > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Jan 9 10:32:42 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 11:32:42 -0500 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: References: <1420761506.5818.YahooMailBasic@web122101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ha. Just couldn't resist when it's less than $10 and bought it now. Looking forward to checking it out! Thanks again for the tip. Best, Sean On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Thank you! Added to my Amazon wishlist for next time I do a big batch > order. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Martin Smoot wrote: > >> google "instant input assembler" and you may find more information. >> >> the book was "16-bit microprocessor architecture" by Terry Dollhoff - >> written in 1979. >> >> google "16 bit microprocessor architecture" and you may find links. >> >> the book may be available on Amazon and other places. >> >> possibly interesting reference to the computer it was installed on at >> >> >> http://archive.org/stream/kilobaudmagazine-1979-07/Kilobaud_Microcomputing_1979_July_djvu.txt >> >> - look for "instant input" - they talk about the computer it came on. >> that company (Technico) has been out of business since sometime in the >> early 1980s. >> >> >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 9 11:11:41 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 09:11:41 -0800 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs (wrt: 3B2 main board schematics) In-Reply-To: References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> <54AFEB79.3080706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54B00BCD.6@bitsavers.org> On 1/9/15 8:12 AM, Alan Hightower wrote: > > > I was > hoping to find someone on cctalk with a short-cut, beyond the > traditional methods I had already considered and you have echoed Well, excuse the hell out of me for expressing interest. I'll get back to real work now. From alan at alanlee.org Fri Jan 9 12:13:40 2015 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 13:13:40 -0500 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs (wrt: 3B2 main board schematics) In-Reply-To: <54B00BCD.6@bitsavers.org> References: <835856974524345b990185346e8e8590@alanlee.org> <54AFEB79.3080706@bitsavers.org> <54B00BCD.6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9ea903eb6fcc88d1078176b4763aa780@alanlee.org> Did not mean to offend... sorry. On 2015-01-09 12:11, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/9/15 8:12 AM, Alan Hightower wrote: > >> I was hoping to find someone on cctalk with a short-cut, beyond the traditional methods I had already considered and you have echoed > > Well, excuse the hell out of me for expressing interest. > > I'll get back to real work now. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 11:35:34 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 15:35:34 -0200 Subject: Proud owner of a SDK-86, now what In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also, a good web site: http://www.intel-vintage.info/inteldevelopmenttools.htm On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > If it fires up OK, pretty much all you should need to get going is an ASM > programmer's reference for the 8086 and some idea of what the memory map is > on that SBC... you can probably find both floating around on Bitsavers or > something. Intel did the H/W design on this one so you can just focus on > writing software ;) > > If you are looking for more resources, I have a number of these books from > Merrill Publishing... there is one about the 8086/8088 in particular, > "8086/8088 Microprocessor: Architecture, Programming and Interfacing" by > Brey, might be worth checking out... I don't own that particular title, but > I own several other titles from the same publishing house and they are all > pretty good. > > What you can do is limited only by your imagination! If I were you, I'd > probably start out trying to interface a UART, get a little monitor running > on a TTY, and go from there :) > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Alexandre Souza < > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > I have one too, but never got it to work. I believe some of the 2104 > > memories are fried. Lazy as I am, I still need to make an adapter for a > > 6116 or something. > > > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Randy Dawson > > wrote: > > > > > I got this off of the auction site, listed as untested. It came in > > today, > > > looks in beautiful condition, and powers up just fine, with the 86 1.1 > > > message on the display. I have the 'Microcomputer Experiments With the > > > SDK-86, Leventhal' book headed my way. > > > > > > I have not been able to find much else - any suggestions for fun > projects > > > with this? > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > > From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 12:27:22 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 12:27:22 -0600 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 Message-ID: Not mine, not near me, not known to me: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 9 12:29:17 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 10:29:17 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9020CC7F-E433-4E13-82DB-1819315C9772@shiresoft.com> The "seller" is notoriously hard to get in touch with. :-( This is the 2nd time that he's posted these systems. I never received a response the first time he posted them. I'm waiting for a response this time. TTFN - Guy > On Jan 9, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Jason T wrote: > > Not mine, not near me, not known to me: > > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 12:31:48 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 16:31:48 -0200 Subject: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So bad it is so seldomly read, Sean. I hope I can get more pageviews. It is not for the money, but I hope all the work I have in photographing, creating the pages, etc...is useful for someone. On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Cool! I really enjoy your site, even if I can't read Portuguese :) Good > pics. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Alexandre Souza < > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Just in case someone is curious, there is another brazilian computer > > dissected, the CP200 (ZX81 clone) from Prologica > > > > www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > Greetings from Brazil! > > Alexandre > > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jan 9 12:42:06 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 10:42:06 -0800 Subject: Manuals Plus going out of business... Message-ID: <20150109104206.1e5c4762@asrock.bcwi.net> I got a letter a couple of weeks ago that "Manuals Plus" http://www.manualsplus.com/ is going out of business. I verified that by phone yesterday. They are having a "make me an offer" sale - and I understand they are being swamped with orders. If you need/want original service/op manuals for test equipment, etc., now is the time to buy. I've bought a lot of manuals from Manuals Plus - and I'm really sorry to see them go. Unfortunately, the owner of their building is raising their rent next month - and they can't afford to stay - or move... Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 9 12:43:48 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 10:43:48 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was actually there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. Bob On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T wrote: > > >Not mine, not near me, not known to me: > >http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html > > > From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Jan 9 14:34:06 2015 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 12:34:06 -0800 Subject: Manuals Plus going out of business... In-Reply-To: <20150109104206.1e5c4762@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20150109104206.1e5c4762@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <54B03B3E.1020401@crash.com> On 01/09/2015 10:42 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I got a letter a couple of weeks ago that "Manuals Plus" > http://www.manualsplus.com/ is going out of business. I verified that > by phone yesterday. Can anybody think of a hobbyist-friendly outfit we might try to pair them up with to make sure the trove goes to another business/organization that can keep it available? On the theory it doesn't hurt to ask... --S. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 9 15:01:17 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 15:01:17 -0600 Subject: Manuals Plus going out of business... In-Reply-To: <54B03B3E.1020401@crash.com> References: <20150109104206.1e5c4762@asrock.bcwi.net> <54B03B3E.1020401@crash.com> Message-ID: <000001d02c4f$6a19d220$3e4d7660$@classiccmp.org> > I got a letter a couple of weeks ago that "Manuals Plus" > http://www.manualsplus.com/ is going out of business. I verified that > by phone yesterday. Couple thoughts, mostly serious ones... I'd be perfectly willing to host the content on the classiccmp server if the manuals are all in electronic format Or Would this be a good thing to merge in with bitsavers? (question for AEK) Or If they are closing their doors, I might consider taking over that business as far as orders, accounting, etc., but I would NOT want to house a warehouse of manuals.... J From francois.dion at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 15:01:06 2015 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 13:01:06 -0800 Subject: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ooops! www.tabalabs.com.br -> http://www.hostinger.com.br/cpu_exceeded?tabalabs.com.br que coisa... Francois -- http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com - http://pyptug.org - @f_dion On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > So bad it is so seldomly read, Sean. I hope I can get more pageviews. It is > not for the money, but I hope all the work I have in photographing, > creating the pages, etc...is useful for someone. > > On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > > Cool! I really enjoy your site, even if I can't read Portuguese :) Good > > pics. > > > > Best, > > > > Sean > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Alexandre Souza < > > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Just in case someone is curious, there is another brazilian computer > > > dissected, the CP200 (ZX81 clone) from Prologica > > > > > > www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > > > Greetings from Brazil! > > > Alexandre > > > > > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 15:08:18 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 19:08:18 -0200 Subject: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 References: Message-ID: Oh my :( My site appeared into a national magazine today, so bandwidth must have exceeded :( Thanks for telling me! --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francois Dion" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 7:01 PM Subject: Re: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 > Ooops! www.tabalabs.com.br -> > http://www.hostinger.com.br/cpu_exceeded?tabalabs.com.br > > que coisa... > > Francois > -- > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com - http://pyptug.org - @f_dion > > On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Alexandre Souza < > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > >> So bad it is so seldomly read, Sean. I hope I can get more pageviews. It >> is >> not for the money, but I hope all the work I have in photographing, >> creating the pages, etc...is useful for someone. >> >> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >> >> > Cool! I really enjoy your site, even if I can't read Portuguese :) Good >> > pics. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Sean >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Alexandre Souza < >> > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > > Just in case someone is curious, there is another brazilian computer >> > > dissected, the CP200 (ZX81 clone) from Prologica >> > > >> > > www.tabalabs.com.br >> > > >> > > Greetings from Brazil! >> > > Alexandre >> > > >> > >> From scaron at umich.edu Fri Jan 9 15:29:05 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 16:29:05 -0500 Subject: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: LOL! I guess that will help tick up the pageview count :O Best, Sean On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > Oh my :( > > My site appeared into a national magazine today, so bandwidth must have > exceeded :( > > Thanks for telling me! > > --- > Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francois Dion" < > francois.dion at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 7:01 PM > Subject: Re: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 > > > > Ooops! www.tabalabs.com.br -> >> http://www.hostinger.com.br/cpu_exceeded?tabalabs.com.br >> >> que coisa... >> >> Francois >> -- >> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com - http://pyptug.org - @f_dion >> >> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Alexandre Souza < >> alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> So bad it is so seldomly read, Sean. I hope I can get more pageviews. It >>> is >>> not for the money, but I hope all the work I have in photographing, >>> creating the pages, etc...is useful for someone. >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >>> >>> > Cool! I really enjoy your site, even if I can't read Portuguese :) Good >>> > pics. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > >>> > Sean >>> > >>> > >>> > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Alexandre Souza < >>> > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > > Just in case someone is curious, there is another brazilian computer >>> > > dissected, the CP200 (ZX81 clone) from Prologica >>> > > >>> > > www.tabalabs.com.br >>> > > >>> > > Greetings from Brazil! >>> > > Alexandre >>> > > >>> > >>> >>> > From mark at markesystems.com Fri Jan 9 16:27:44 2015 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 14:27:44 -0800 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2836F7163D754A5B918E3768904B872A@Daedalus> > From: Alan Hightower > > I appreciate all the input from folks. With 3600 though holes and at > least 4 layers, I'm afraid I will make mistakes using any manual method > like ohm tracing without a check or balance. With so many permutations If it is indeed a four-layer board, there's a pretty good chance that the inner two layers are power and ground; if so, your project just got a lot easier. You can just hold it up to a strong light source - if it's completely opaque, then the inner layers probably are power/ground planes. If not, then at least you can see the traces (although without knowing which layers they're on...). ~~ Mark Moulding From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 9 17:31:27 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 15:31:27 -0800 Subject: Excess Solutions BBQ Saturday In-Reply-To: <20150108142438.6c6a16fa@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20150108142438.6c6a16fa@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <54B064CF.9020504@bitsavers.org> For people in the SF Bay area Excess Solutions moved to 1555 7th, across from Spartan Stadium and I went down to see the new place. Mike told me he's having a grand opening BBQ tomorrow. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jan 9 19:25:26 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 17:25:26 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> On 1/9/2015 10:43 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. > Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled > to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was actually > there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and > looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for > it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. > > Bob > > > On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T wrote: > > >> >> Not mine, not near me, not known to me: >> >> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html >> >> >> > I talked to the owner for quite a while tonight and got some information. He is very interested in moving it and is sending photos. He said someone is coming to take a look at it tomorrow in Freemont. I will post the photos he sends me tonight. I hope someone buys it for other than gold. I am not set up to address this sort of a deal myself, and am passing the info along to who may be able to. I told him about cctalk and ibm vintage lists, so if you are on that, that is the secret handshake as far as what I told him, vs. a scrap dealer. Thanks Jim From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 18:31:19 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 22:31:19 -0200 Subject: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 References: Message-ID: <63192081B6284785860E95516FBC57DB@deskjara> Site is back! :) --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Caron" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "Sean Caron" Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 7:29 PM Subject: Re: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 > LOL! I guess that will help tick up the pageview count :O > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Alexandre Souza < > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> Oh my :( >> >> My site appeared into a national magazine today, so bandwidth must >> have >> exceeded :( >> >> Thanks for telling me! >> >> --- >> Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) >> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br >> Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francois Dion" < >> francois.dion at gmail.com> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 7:01 PM >> Subject: Re: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 >> >> >> >> Ooops! www.tabalabs.com.br -> >>> http://www.hostinger.com.br/cpu_exceeded?tabalabs.com.br >>> >>> que coisa... >>> >>> Francois >>> -- >>> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com - http://pyptug.org - @f_dion >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Alexandre Souza < >>> alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> So bad it is so seldomly read, Sean. I hope I can get more pageviews. >>> It >>>> is >>>> not for the money, but I hope all the work I have in photographing, >>>> creating the pages, etc...is useful for someone. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >>>> >>>> > Cool! I really enjoy your site, even if I can't read Portuguese :) >>>> > Good >>>> > pics. >>>> > >>>> > Best, >>>> > >>>> > Sean >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Alexandre Souza < >>>> > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > Just in case someone is curious, there is another brazilian >>>> > > computer >>>> > > dissected, the CP200 (ZX81 clone) from Prologica >>>> > > >>>> > > www.tabalabs.com.br >>>> > > >>>> > > Greetings from Brazil! >>>> > > Alexandre >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >> From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jan 9 20:24:36 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 18:24:36 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54B08D64.4070306@jwsss.com> On 1/9/2015 5:25 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 1/9/2015 10:43 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. >> Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled >> to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was actually >> there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and >> looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for >> it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. >> >> Bob >> >> >> On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Not mine, not near me, not known to me: >>> >>> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html >>> >>> >>> >> > I talked to the owner for quite a while tonight and got some > information. He is very interested in moving it and is sending > photos. He said someone is coming to take a look at it tomorrow in > Freemont. I will post the photos he sends me tonight. > > I hope someone buys it for other than gold. I am not set up to > address this sort of a deal myself, and am passing the info along to > who may be able to. > > I told him about cctalk and ibm vintage lists, so if you are on that, > that is the secret handshake as far as what I told him, vs. a scrap > dealer. > > Thanks > Jim > > here is an email I got from him with the photos. He also mentioned an idea, which is to take over the rent on the locker, so you can close on ownership now, and move over a longer timeframe than "immediate". Again, I hope someone gets this for the restoration, and not for making gold scrap. Jim Hi Jim Attached is a few pictures for the IBM Mainframe and the HP 3000 Series III. I will send you additional information if interested.. I am enclosing he bill of sale and the descriptions included as well. The systems have been in a warehouse and storage for many years so they need to be cleaned and restored. I paid $8500 for the IBM and $9000 for the HP 3000. I have had a few people who want to scavenge the computers for parts and I have refused to sell to them, Hope that you could help me and the computers to sell to a Collector. Allen From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jan 9 20:20:51 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 18:20:51 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54B08C83.2010900@jwsss.com> On 1/9/2015 5:25 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 1/9/2015 10:43 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. >> Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled >> to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was actually >> there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and >> looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for >> it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. >> >> Bob >> >> >> On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Not mine, not near me, not known to me: >>> >>> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html >>> >>> >>> >> > I talked to the owner for quite a while tonight and got some > information. He is very interested in moving it and is sending > photos. He said someone is coming to take a look at it tomorrow in > Freemont. I will post the photos he sends me tonight. > > I hope someone buys it for other than gold. I am not set up to > address this sort of a deal myself, and am passing the info along to > who may be able to. > > I told him about cctalk and ibm vintage lists, so if you are on that, > that is the secret handshake as far as what I told him, vs. a scrap > dealer. > > Thanks > Jim > > here is a pdf file of photos and some paperwork that I got from the seller. I've already sent it to some possibly interested parties. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4AXJXpUCE-hMVpRS3R6R1lhZlk/view?usp=sharing From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 20:38:38 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 20:38:38 -0600 Subject: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 In-Reply-To: <63192081B6284785860E95516FBC57DB@deskjara> References: <63192081B6284785860E95516FBC57DB@deskjara> Message-ID: Hi Alex, Nice site, cool toys! I don't read Portuguese, but it looks like you +also+ had an SX-64 with a bad kernal ROM? What's the deal with those, did they use some kind of inferior part for the SX-64 ROM? It seems like they have a habit of just going "poof" one day. controllers What was your symptom - screen comes up, with the correct color & border - but no cursor or welcome message? That's what mine did. I also had one of the two 6522 CIAs go out, which made the floppy unable to read discs. I've heard that's also a common point of failure in the SX-64. -Bill On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > Site is back! :) > > --- > Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Caron" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>; "Sean Caron" > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 7:29 PM > Subject: Re: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 > > > LOL! I guess that will help tick up the pageview count :O >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Alexandre Souza < >> alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>> Oh my :( >>> >>> My site appeared into a national magazine today, so bandwidth must >>> have >>> exceeded :( >>> >>> Thanks for telling me! >>> >>> --- >>> Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) >>> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br >>> Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francois Dion" < >>> francois.dion at gmail.com> >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 7:01 PM >>> Subject: Re: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 >>> >>> >>> >>> Ooops! www.tabalabs.com.br -> >>> >>>> http://www.hostinger.com.br/cpu_exceeded?tabalabs.com.br >>>> >>>> que coisa... >>>> >>>> Francois >>>> -- >>>> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com - http://pyptug.org - @f_dion >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Alexandre Souza < >>>> alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> So bad it is so seldomly read, Sean. I hope I can get more pageviews. >>>> It >>>> >>>>> is >>>>> not for the money, but I hope all the work I have in photographing, >>>>> creating the pages, etc...is useful for someone. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Sean Caron wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Cool! I really enjoy your site, even if I can't read Portuguese :) > >>>>> Good >>>>> > pics. >>>>> > >>>>> > Best, >>>>> > >>>>> > Sean >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Alexandre Souza < >>>>> > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > > Just in case someone is curious, there is another brazilian > > >>>>> computer >>>>> > > dissected, the CP200 (ZX81 clone) from Prologica >>>>> > > >>>>> > > www.tabalabs.com.br >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Greetings from Brazil! >>>>> > > Alexandre >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jan 9 20:38:47 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 18:38:47 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 Message-ID: <20150109183847.07153fc8@asrock.bcwi.net> On Fri, 09 Jan 2015 17:25:26 -0800 jwsmobile wrote: > > On 1/9/2015 10:43 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. > > Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled > > to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was > > actually there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and > > looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for > > it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. > > > > Bob > > > > > > On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T > > wrote: > > > >> > >> Not mine, not near me, not known to me: > >> > >> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html > >> > >> > >> > > > I talked to the owner for quite a while tonight and got some > information. He is very interested in moving it and is sending > photos. He said someone is coming to take a look at it tomorrow in > Freemont. I will post the photos he sends me tonight. > > I hope someone buys it for other than gold. I am not set up to > address this sort of a deal myself, and am passing the info along to > who may be able to. > > I told him about cctalk and ibm vintage lists, so if you are on that, > that is the secret handshake as far as what I told him, vs. a scrap > dealer. When Bob and I initially talked to the owner, he told us that what he had was a major find for a collector. He spoke in glowing terms as to the condition of the 4341 and the HP mini (de-installed from a running environment and then stored for many years). So as you would expect, Bob and I were very anxious to see both systems. What we found was a serious disappointment. As Bob said, the 4341 and the HP mini were crammed into a storage unit with lots of other junk. It was impossible to see/determine what system components were actually there. There was no way to know how complete or what features either system had. Repeating what Bob said, everything was water damaged, rusty and in poor condition - and I do mean everything. We told him that his asking price was too high - and that the condition of the systems was so bad we wouldn't even make him an offer. Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jan 9 21:10:56 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 19:10:56 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <20150109183350.276a420e@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> <20150109183350.276a420e@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <54B09840.4090109@jwsss.com> On 1/9/2015 6:33 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > We told him that his asking price was too high - and that the condition > of the systems was so bad we wouldn't even make him an offer. I did recover a 4341 open to the elements with bird poop which was later made to run in Kansas City, Mo. Can't speak to the peripherals. They were lucky to run when they were on the floor originally. The terminals... I pulled 10 3278's out of a dumpster behind a walmart when they converted from using IBM comm gear to using PC's and dongles. Worked fine, and are still probably working. And they had crap on them and did more damage to the dumpster than the dumpster did to them. the 3420 is likely just spare parts. I cc'ed this to a fellow I gave 3420's to years ago, that i hope has my original datacenter in some sort of shape. The 4341 would run what he has there. Of course burrowing into the pile to see what shape this one is in would be the chore of the day. I suspect no one is going to find a shiny 4341 any time soon that is not in this condition for some reason. He did say he is under stress to move and get rid of it, so that can play into the decision anyone makes. Thanks Jim From pye at mactec.com.au Fri Jan 9 21:48:24 2015 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 03:48:24 +0000 Subject: Manuals Plus going out of business... In-Reply-To: <000001d02c4f$6a19d220$3e4d7660$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150109104206.1e5c4762@asrock.bcwi.net> <54B03B3E.1020401@crash.com> <000001d02c4f$6a19d220$3e4d7660$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 10 Jan 2015, at 7:01 am, Jay West wrote: > but I would NOT want to house a > warehouse of manuals Isn?t that exactly what they do? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 21:51:55 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 22:51:55 -0500 Subject: Manuals Plus going out of business... In-Reply-To: <000001d02c4f$6a19d220$3e4d7660$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150109104206.1e5c4762@asrock.bcwi.net> <54B03B3E.1020401@crash.com> <000001d02c4f$6a19d220$3e4d7660$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > If they are closing their doors, I might consider taking over that business > as far as orders, accounting, etc., but I would NOT want to house a > warehouse of manuals.... As someone that has been in this business, I can say that the good days are long gone. The manual business today is on its last legs. If he is lucky, someone will haul away the manuals for free. -- Will From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 9 22:15:28 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 20:15:28 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54B0A760.5080104@shiresoft.com> I'm the one who's coming out tomorrow. ;-) So it won't be going for scrap. TTFN - Guy On 1/9/15 5:25 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 1/9/2015 10:43 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. >> Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled >> to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was actually >> there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and >> looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for >> it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. >> >> Bob >> >> >> On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Not mine, not near me, not known to me: >>> >>> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html >>> >>> >>> >> > I talked to the owner for quite a while tonight and got some > information. He is very interested in moving it and is sending > photos. He said someone is coming to take a look at it tomorrow in > Freemont. I will post the photos he sends me tonight. > > I hope someone buys it for other than gold. I am not set up to > address this sort of a deal myself, and am passing the info along to > who may be able to. > > I told him about cctalk and ibm vintage lists, so if you are on that, > that is the secret handshake as far as what I told him, vs. a scrap > dealer. > > Thanks > Jim From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 9 22:17:51 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 20:17:51 -0800 Subject: Manuals Plus going out of business... In-Reply-To: References: <20150109104206.1e5c4762@asrock.bcwi.net> <54B03B3E.1020401@crash.com> <000001d02c4f$6a19d220$3e4d7660$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54B0A7EF.4090606@sydex.com> On 01/09/2015 07:51 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> If they are closing their doors, I might consider taking over that business >> as far as orders, accounting, etc., but I would NOT want to house a >> warehouse of manuals.... > > As someone that has been in this business, I can say that the good > days are long gone. The manual business today is on its last legs. > > If he is lucky, someone will haul away the manuals for free. Somewhat on-topic, I've sometimes gone to http://clubdediagramas.com/ searching for a manual. Since it's Spanish language, it might be a worthwhile addition to one's bookmarks. --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 9 22:18:54 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 20:18:54 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <20150109183847.07153fc8@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20150109183847.07153fc8@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <54B0A82E.5060605@shiresoft.com> On 1/9/15 6:38 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > When Bob and I initially talked to the owner, he told us that what he > had was a major find for a collector. He spoke in glowing terms as to > the condition of the 4341 and the HP mini (de-installed from a running > environment and then stored for many years). So as you would expect, > Bob and I were very anxious to see both systems. What we found was a > serious disappointment. As Bob said, the 4341 and the HP mini were > crammed into a storage unit with lots of other junk. It was impossible > to see/determine what system components were actually there. There was > no way to know how complete or what features either system had. > Repeating what Bob said, everything was water damaged, rusty and in > poor condition - and I do mean everything. We told him that his asking > price was too high - and that the condition of the systems was so bad > we wouldn't even make him an offer. Lyle Well that's a disappointment. I'm still going to take a look at it tomorrow...but I'm going to be prepared to walk away from it. TTFN - Guy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 22:19:14 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 23:19:14 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B0A760.5080104@shiresoft.com> References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> <54B0A760.5080104@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Take pictures! -- Will On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 11:15 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I'm the one who's coming out tomorrow. ;-) So it won't be going for scrap. > > TTFN - Guy > > > On 1/9/15 5:25 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> >> On 1/9/2015 10:43 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >>> >>> I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. >>> Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled >>> to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was actually >>> there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and >>> looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for >>> it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Not mine, not near me, not known to me: >>>> >>>> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> I talked to the owner for quite a while tonight and got some information. >> He is very interested in moving it and is sending photos. He said someone >> is coming to take a look at it tomorrow in Freemont. I will post the >> photos he sends me tonight. >> >> I hope someone buys it for other than gold. I am not set up to address >> this sort of a deal myself, and am passing the info along to who may be able >> to. >> >> I told him about cctalk and ibm vintage lists, so if you are on that, that >> is the secret handshake as far as what I told him, vs. a scrap dealer. >> >> Thanks >> Jim > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 9 22:19:36 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 20:19:36 -0800 Subject: Manuals Plus going out of business... In-Reply-To: References: <20150109104206.1e5c4762@asrock.bcwi.net> <54B03B3E.1020401@crash.com> <000001d02c4f$6a19d220$3e4d7660$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54B0A858.10803@bitsavers.org> On 1/9/15 7:51 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > As someone that has been in this business, I can say that the good > days are long gone. The manual business today is on its last legs. > And only a fraction of it has been scanned, though no one but collectors care about old test equipment any more. There is an insane amount of old gear on the market. It much better built than what you can buy now but the race to the bottom has dried up interest in it. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 20:43:10 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 00:43:10 -0200 Subject: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 In-Reply-To: References: <63192081B6284785860E95516FBC57DB@deskjara> Message-ID: Thanks Bill! The broken SX-64 was a loooong time ago, it wasn't even mine at that time (now it is! :oD). I don't know what happen, but ROM parts are more common to fail than EPROMs, this is well known. I don't remember exactely what happened, but was something around what you related, Screen comes up with some garbage but no cursor/welcome. 6522 are a pain in the back in Brazil, I have lots of friends with C64s without a good 6522 :( Oh my :( On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 12:38 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Hi Alex, > > Nice site, cool toys! > > I don't read Portuguese, but it looks like you +also+ had an SX-64 with a > bad kernal ROM? What's the deal with those, did they use some kind of > inferior part for the SX-64 ROM? It seems like they have a habit of just > going "poof" one day. > controllers > What was your symptom - screen comes up, with the correct color & border - > but no cursor or welcome message? That's what mine did. I also had one of > the two 6522 CIAs go out, which made the floppy unable to read discs. I've > heard that's also a common point of failure in the SX-64. > > -Bill > > On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Alexandre Souza < > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Site is back! :) > > > > --- > > Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) > > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Caron" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org>; "Sean Caron" > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 7:29 PM > > Subject: Re: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 > > > > > > LOL! I guess that will help tick up the pageview count :O > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Sean > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Alexandre Souza < > >> alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Oh my :( > >>> > >>> My site appeared into a national magazine today, so bandwidth must > >>> have > >>> exceeded :( > >>> > >>> Thanks for telling me! > >>> > >>> --- > >>> Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) > >>> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > >>> Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francois Dion" < > >>> francois.dion at gmail.com> > >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> > >>> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 7:01 PM > >>> Subject: Re: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Ooops! www.tabalabs.com.br -> > >>> > >>>> http://www.hostinger.com.br/cpu_exceeded?tabalabs.com.br > >>>> > >>>> que coisa... > >>>> > >>>> Francois > >>>> -- > >>>> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com - http://pyptug.org - @f_dion > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Alexandre Souza < > >>>> alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> So bad it is so seldomly read, Sean. I hope I can get more pageviews. > >>>> It > >>>> > >>>>> is > >>>>> not for the money, but I hope all the work I have in photographing, > >>>>> creating the pages, etc...is useful for someone. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Cool! I really enjoy your site, even if I can't read Portuguese :) > > > >>>>> Good > >>>>> > pics. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Best, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Sean > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Alexandre Souza < > >>>>> > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Just in case someone is curious, there is another brazilian > > > >>>>> computer > >>>>> > > dissected, the CP200 (ZX81 clone) from Prologica > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > www.tabalabs.com.br > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > Greetings from Brazil! > >>>>> > > Alexandre > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 22:47:24 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 22:47:24 -0600 Subject: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 In-Reply-To: References: <63192081B6284785860E95516FBC57DB@deskjara> Message-ID: The 6522 should be generally available, just about anywhere via eBay. In fact, the last batch I bought were Brazilian-made Rockwell chips, IIRC. It's the 6526 that's the bugger. Even in the USA, we have to salvage them from other C-64 machines, etc. eBay sellers often ask $25/each - you're better off finding a donor C-64! They are easy to blow-out, too. Very commonly they take a fatal blow when plugging a joystick, etc. They should have used buffers between the game ports and the ICs. Best, Bill On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 8:43 PM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks Bill! The broken SX-64 was a loooong time ago, it wasn't even mine > at that time (now it is! :oD). I don't know what happen, but ROM parts are > more common to fail than EPROMs, this is well known. I don't remember > exactely what happened, but was something around what you related, Screen > comes up with some garbage but no cursor/welcome. 6522 are a pain in the > back in Brazil, I have lots of friends with C64s without a good 6522 :( Oh > my :( > > On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 12:38 AM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > > > Nice site, cool toys! > > > > I don't read Portuguese, but it looks like you +also+ had an SX-64 with a > > bad kernal ROM? What's the deal with those, did they use some kind of > > inferior part for the SX-64 ROM? It seems like they have a habit of just > > going "poof" one day. > > controllers > > What was your symptom - screen comes up, with the correct color & border > - > > but no cursor or welcome message? That's what mine did. I also had one of > > the two 6522 CIAs go out, which made the floppy unable to read discs. > I've > > heard that's also a common point of failure in the SX-64. > > > > -Bill > > > > On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Alexandre Souza < > > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Site is back! :) > > > > > > --- > > > Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) > > > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Caron" > > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org>; "Sean Caron" > > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 7:29 PM > > > Subject: Re: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 > > > > > > > > > LOL! I guess that will help tick up the pageview count :O > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> > > >> Sean > > >> > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Alexandre Souza < > > >> alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> Oh my :( > > >>> > > >>> My site appeared into a national magazine today, so bandwidth must > > >>> have > > >>> exceeded :( > > >>> > > >>> Thanks for telling me! > > >>> > > >>> --- > > >>> Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) > > >>> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > >>> Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francois Dion" < > > >>> francois.dion at gmail.com> > > >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >>> > > >>> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 7:01 PM > > >>> Subject: Re: Brazilian computer dissected: CP200 > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Ooops! www.tabalabs.com.br -> > > >>> > > >>>> http://www.hostinger.com.br/cpu_exceeded?tabalabs.com.br > > >>>> > > >>>> que coisa... > > >>>> > > >>>> Francois > > >>>> -- > > >>>> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com - http://pyptug.org - @f_dion > > >>>> > > >>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Alexandre Souza < > > >>>> alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> So bad it is so seldomly read, Sean. I hope I can get more > pageviews. > > >>>> It > > >>>> > > >>>>> is > > >>>>> not for the money, but I hope all the work I have in photographing, > > >>>>> creating the pages, etc...is useful for someone. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Sean Caron > wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Cool! I really enjoy your site, even if I can't read Portuguese > :) > > > > > >>>>> Good > > >>>>> > pics. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Best, > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Sean > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Alexandre Souza < > > >>>>> > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > Just in case someone is curious, there is another brazilian > > > > >>>>> computer > > >>>>> > > dissected, the CP200 (ZX81 clone) from Prologica > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > www.tabalabs.com.br > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > Greetings from Brazil! > > >>>>> > > Alexandre > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > > > > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jan 9 20:33:50 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 18:33:50 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20150109183350.276a420e@asrock.bcwi.net> On Fri, 09 Jan 2015 17:25:26 -0800 jwsmobile wrote: > > On 1/9/2015 10:43 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. > > Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled > > to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was > > actually there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and > > looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for > > it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. > > > > Bob > > > > > > On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T > > wrote: > > > >> > >> Not mine, not near me, not known to me: > >> > >> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html > >> > >> > >> > > > I talked to the owner for quite a while tonight and got some > information. He is very interested in moving it and is sending > photos. He said someone is coming to take a look at it tomorrow in > Freemont. I will post the photos he sends me tonight. > > I hope someone buys it for other than gold. I am not set up to > address this sort of a deal myself, and am passing the info along to > who may be able to. > > I told him about cctalk and ibm vintage lists, so if you are on that, > that is the secret handshake as far as what I told him, vs. a scrap > dealer. When Bob and I initially talked to the owner, he told us that what he had was a major find for a collector. He spoke in glowing terms as to the condition of the 4341 and the HP mini (de-installed from a running environment and then stored for many years). So as you would expect, Bob and I were very anxious to see both systems. What we found was a serious disappointment. As Bob said, the 4341 and the HP mini were crammed into a storage unit with lots of other junk. It was impossible to see/determine what system components were actually there. There was no way to know how complete or what features either system had. Repeating what Bob said, everything was water damaged, rusty and in poor condition - and I do mean everything. We told him that his asking price was too high - and that the condition of the systems was so bad we wouldn't even make him an offer. Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 10 00:52:11 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 22:52:11 -0800 Subject: Proud owner of a SDK-86, now what (revisited) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: OK, I think I have a development environment, I found 8086tiny... to run an assembler under win 7 (using cygwin) and I have DOS prompt with 8086tiny, what a cool program! I will get the serial port and monitor talking next, to upload Intel hex files. I do not want to solder on this board, it is so pristine, but I hope to add what I want from the plug in bus pins and a connector to a proto board: 8087 math coprocessor is on the way from that auction site I will cheat and add a modern meg ram chip I have a 1771 FDC here, but thats an 8080/z80 part, I probably need the XT disc controller Video next The idea is to get it to boot DOS and a hard disk, build the IBM XT from scratch with the SDK-86 as the base. Franken-PC-XT, and having fun here. > Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 10:53:14 -0500 > Subject: Re: Proud owner of a SDK-86, now what > From: scaron at umich.edu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; scaron at umich.edu > > If it fires up OK, pretty much all you should need to get going is an ASM > programmer's reference for the 8086 and some idea of what the memory map is > on that SBC... you can probably find both floating around on Bitsavers or > something. Intel did the H/W design on this one so you can just focus on > writing software ;) > > If you are looking for more resources, I have a number of these books from > Merrill Publishing... there is one about the 8086/8088 in particular, > "8086/8088 Microprocessor: Architecture, Programming and Interfacing" by > Brey, might be worth checking out... I don't own that particular title, but > I own several other titles from the same publishing house and they are all > pretty good. > > What you can do is limited only by your imagination! If I were you, I'd > probably start out trying to interface a UART, get a little monitor running > on a TTY, and go from there :) > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Alexandre Souza < > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > I have one too, but never got it to work. I believe some of the 2104 > > memories are fried. Lazy as I am, I still need to make an adapter for a > > 6116 or something. > > > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Randy Dawson > > wrote: > > > > > I got this off of the auction site, listed as untested. It came in > > today, > > > looks in beautiful condition, and powers up just fine, with the 86 1.1 > > > message on the display. I have the 'Microcomputer Experiments With the > > > SDK-86, Leventhal' book headed my way. > > > > > > I have not been able to find much else - any suggestions for fun projects > > > with this? > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 10 00:52:11 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 22:52:11 -0800 Subject: Proud owner of a SDK-86, now what (revisited) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: OK, I think I have a development environment, I found 8086tiny... to run an assembler under win 7 (using cygwin) and I have DOS prompt with 8086tiny, what a cool program! I will get the serial port and monitor talking next, to upload Intel hex files. I do not want to solder on this board, it is so pristine, but I hope to add what I want from the plug in bus pins and a connector to a proto board: 8087 math coprocessor is on the way from that auction site I will cheat and add a modern meg ram chip I have a 1771 FDC here, but thats an 8080/z80 part, I probably need the XT disc controller Video next The idea is to get it to boot DOS and a hard disk, build the IBM XT from scratch with the SDK-86 as the base. Franken-PC-XT, and having fun here. > Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 10:53:14 -0500 > Subject: Re: Proud owner of a SDK-86, now what > From: scaron at umich.edu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; scaron at umich.edu > > If it fires up OK, pretty much all you should need to get going is an ASM > programmer's reference for the 8086 and some idea of what the memory map is > on that SBC... you can probably find both floating around on Bitsavers or > something. Intel did the H/W design on this one so you can just focus on > writing software ;) > > If you are looking for more resources, I have a number of these books from > Merrill Publishing... there is one about the 8086/8088 in particular, > "8086/8088 Microprocessor: Architecture, Programming and Interfacing" by > Brey, might be worth checking out... I don't own that particular title, but > I own several other titles from the same publishing house and they are all > pretty good. > > What you can do is limited only by your imagination! If I were you, I'd > probably start out trying to interface a UART, get a little monitor running > on a TTY, and go from there :) > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Alexandre Souza < > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > I have one too, but never got it to work. I believe some of the 2104 > > memories are fried. Lazy as I am, I still need to make an adapter for a > > 6116 or something. > > > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Randy Dawson > > wrote: > > > > > I got this off of the auction site, listed as untested. It came in > > today, > > > looks in beautiful condition, and powers up just fine, with the 86 1.1 > > > message on the display. I have the 'Microcomputer Experiments With the > > > SDK-86, Leventhal' book headed my way. > > > > > > I have not been able to find much else - any suggestions for fun projects > > > with this? > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 08:15:06 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 09:15:06 -0500 Subject: Broken H724 power supply from PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > From: Al Kossow >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Broken H724 power supply from PDP-8/e >> >> On 1/7/15 6:24 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> > The H724 power supply in my PDP-8/e works OK for about 5 seconds and >> then >> > the +5V output goes to about 3.0V. If I leave it on for a few more >> seconds >> > it will blow the 20A fuse for the +5V output. >> > >> >> sounds like something is firing the crowbar (Q207) > > You were correct Al, it is the crowbar firing. About 18ms after power on the +5V output gets to 6.4V and the crowbar fires. There is nothing obviously fried on the A2 regulator board. I have the schematics for the power supply and the IPB and BOM for the A2 regulator board. The IPB callouts don't include the individual reference designators so I need to reverse engineer it. It is just a simple single sided board so that should be easy. There is a 'scope image of the +5V output here: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-8e/pdp-8e-restoration-log/Broken_H724.jpg -- Michael Thompson From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 10 08:29:35 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 09:29:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Manuals Plus going out of business... Message-ID: <20150110142935.5F93B18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lyle Bickley > I got a letter a couple of weeks ago that "Manuals Plus" .. is going out > of business. I verified that by phone yesterday. > They are having a "make me an offer" sale ... Interesting that nothing is on their Web site about it. Maybe they are prioritizing their past customers? Guess I'll have to call and see if I can make an offer on a few things... Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 10 12:54:31 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 10:54:31 -0800 Subject: Manuals Plus going out of business... In-Reply-To: <20150110142935.5F93B18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150110142935.5F93B18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54B17567.3070703@bitsavers.org> On 1/10/15 6:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Guess I'll have to call and see if I can make an offer on a few things... > They're answering emails at sales at manualsplus.com From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sat Jan 10 15:58:56 2015 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 22:58:56 +0100 Subject: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, may be a bit late to chime in but I didn't have time to go through my stuff and look it up earlier, so here goes: A DECstation 5000/200 with PMAG-B Framebuffer is available in southern Germany. I myself was given that machine several years ago and didn't get to try it out yet. Unfortunately I don't have the knowledge and resources available to put the machine online so it would have to be physically relocated. I would prefer putting it on an indefinite loan but might also be persuaded to trade or outright donate to this worthwile cause. Feel free to contact me if you think it might be of any help. Yours sincerely, Arno Kletzander > On 29 December 2014 at 00:31, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > On 2014-12-28 14:56, David Brownlee wrote: > > >> > > >> Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard > > >> code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the > > >> VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). > > >> > > >> He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation > > >> X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. > > > > > > which DECstation, and which Graphic adapter? > > > There where quite a few different ones on the TURBOChannel, > > > from the very dumb frame buffer to the 3d ones ... > > > > My initial thoughts would be a nice little 3100 or possibly a 2100 > > with the simple framebuffer, but obviously the goal would be to > > support whatever is available. > > > > At least VS3100 M38 and M76 don't work with NetBSD, we realized this approx > a year before. Martin got a machine from me to investigate further, but I > think nothing has happened in this reagard since then. > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 11:47:55 +0100 > From: Johnny Billquist > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Anyone have a spare DECstation in europe for a developer? > Message-ID: <54A3D45B.4080307 at update.uu.se> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 2014-12-31 11:40, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > David Brownlee wrote: > > > >> On 29 December 2014 at 00:31, emanuel stiebler wrote: > >>> On 2014-12-28 14:56, David Brownlee wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Bj?rn Johannesson has been working on the VAX framebuffer and keyboard > >>>> code in NetBSD to get X running on the LCG equipped machines (like the > >>>> VAXstation 4000/VLC and 4000/60). > >>>> > >>>> He's expressed an interest in looking at some issues in the DECstation > >>>> X11 code, but doesn't have access to an appropriate machine. > >>> > >>> which DECstation, and which Graphic adapter? > >>> There where quite a few different ones on the TURBOChannel, > >>> from the very dumb frame buffer to the 3d ones ... > >> > >> My initial thoughts would be a nice little 3100 or possibly a 2100 > >> with the simple framebuffer, but obviously the goal would be to > >> support whatever is available. > >> > > > > At least VS3100 M38 and M76 don't work with NetBSD, we realized this approx > > a year before. Martin got a machine from me to investigate further, but I > > think nothing has happened in this reagard since then. > > Uh... Holm... He was talking about a DECstation 2100 or 3100 here... Not > a VAXstation. :-) > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31 > ************************************* > From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jan 10 16:54:41 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 16:54:41 -0600 Subject: Motorola Envoy PDA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone out there interested in a Motorola Envoy of the MagicCap era of personal devices, circa 1994? - John From evan at snarc.net Sat Jan 10 17:11:47 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 18:11:47 -0500 Subject: Motorola Envoy PDA? In-Reply-To: <20150111045946.6FF9D2073EEA@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20150111045946.6FF9D2073EEA@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54B1B1B3.1050102@snarc.net> > Anyone out there interested in a Motorola Envoy of the MagicCap era of personal devices, circa 1994? Interested as in buying, or interested as in a valid cctalk discussion subject? No to the former. Yes to the latter. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 10 19:27:37 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 17:27:37 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> <54B0A760.5080104@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <54B1D189.7030305@shiresoft.com> I had planned to. Unfortunately the condition of everything was even worse than what Lyle had described. In addition to the water damage (chassis rusted on the CPU and at least one control unit), it was hard to see what all was there because of all of the junk (tables, A/C condensers, random other *heavy* junk) all piled *on top* of the CPU, terminals (a heavy table was being supported by a number of HP terminals...when I tried to move the table to get a better view of stuff you could hear things "crunch"). I did get enough stuff out of the way to at least glance at the 4341. It was really sad. 3 major cables had been cut. It looked like a side panel had been removed and what ever was plugged into it was not visible (may have been there but with out a major mining operation it was hard to tell). After about 20 minutes I thanked him and left. He had said that everything was operational before being put into storage. It looks like they just grabbed, cut and generally abused everything even before it went into storage before receiving the additional indignity of significant water damage. It's basically just scrap at this point. Very sad. TTFN - Guy On 1/9/15 8:19 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Take pictures! > > -- > Will > > On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 11:15 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> I'm the one who's coming out tomorrow. ;-) So it won't be going for scrap. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> >> On 1/9/15 5:25 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>> >>> On 1/9/2015 10:43 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >>>> I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. >>>> Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled >>>> to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was actually >>>> there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and >>>> looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for >>>> it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T wrote: >>>> >>>>> Not mine, not near me, not known to me: >>>>> >>>>> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> I talked to the owner for quite a while tonight and got some information. >>> He is very interested in moving it and is sending photos. He said someone >>> is coming to take a look at it tomorrow in Freemont. I will post the >>> photos he sends me tonight. >>> >>> I hope someone buys it for other than gold. I am not set up to address >>> this sort of a deal myself, and am passing the info along to who may be able >>> to. >>> >>> I told him about cctalk and ibm vintage lists, so if you are on that, that >>> is the secret handshake as far as what I told him, vs. a scrap dealer. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Jim >> From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 10 19:53:31 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 17:53:31 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B1D189.7030305@shiresoft.com> References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> <54B0A760.5080104@shiresoft.com> <54B1D189.7030305@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <54B1D79B.40003@shiresoft.com> The 4341 wasn't quite as bad as: http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/rescue/index.html but the end result I think was worse. TTFN - Guy On 1/10/15 5:27 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I had planned to. Unfortunately the condition of everything was even > worse than what Lyle had described. > > In addition to the water damage (chassis rusted on the CPU and at > least one control unit), it was hard to see what all was there because > of all of the junk (tables, A/C condensers, random other *heavy* junk) > all piled *on top* of the CPU, terminals (a heavy table was being > supported by a number of HP terminals...when I tried to move the table > to get a better view of stuff you could hear things "crunch"). I did > get enough stuff out of the way to at least glance at the 4341. It > was really sad. 3 major cables had been cut. It looked like a side > panel had been removed and what ever was plugged into it was not > visible (may have been there but with out a major mining operation it > was hard to tell). After about 20 minutes I thanked him and left. > > He had said that everything was operational before being put into > storage. It looks like they just grabbed, cut and generally abused > everything even before it went into storage before receiving the > additional indignity of significant water damage. > > It's basically just scrap at this point. Very sad. > > TTFN - Guy > > On 1/9/15 8:19 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Take pictures! >> >> -- >> Will >> >> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 11:15 PM, Guy Sotomayor >> wrote: >>> I'm the one who's coming out tomorrow. ;-) So it won't be going for >>> scrap. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >>> >>> On 1/9/15 5:25 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>>> >>>> On 1/9/2015 10:43 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >>>>> I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. >>>>> Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled >>>>> to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was actually >>>>> there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and >>>>> looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for >>>>> it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Not mine, not near me, not known to me: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> I talked to the owner for quite a while tonight and got some >>>> information. >>>> He is very interested in moving it and is sending photos. He said >>>> someone >>>> is coming to take a look at it tomorrow in Freemont. I will post the >>>> photos he sends me tonight. >>>> >>>> I hope someone buys it for other than gold. I am not set up to >>>> address >>>> this sort of a deal myself, and am passing the info along to who >>>> may be able >>>> to. >>>> >>>> I told him about cctalk and ibm vintage lists, so if you are on >>>> that, that >>>> is the secret handshake as far as what I told him, vs. a scrap dealer. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Jim >>> > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 20:01:44 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 21:01:44 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B1D189.7030305@shiresoft.com> References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> <54B0A760.5080104@shiresoft.com> <54B1D189.7030305@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: So what was the guy like? Did he completely deflect any opinions on the condition? Did he acknowledge the mess? -- Will On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I had planned to. Unfortunately the condition of everything was even worse > than what Lyle had described. > > In addition to the water damage (chassis rusted on the CPU and at least one > control unit), it was hard to see what all was there because of all of the > junk (tables, A/C condensers, random other *heavy* junk) all piled *on top* > of the CPU, terminals (a heavy table was being supported by a number of HP > terminals...when I tried to move the table to get a better view of stuff you > could hear things "crunch"). I did get enough stuff out of the way to at > least glance at the 4341. It was really sad. 3 major cables had been cut. > It looked like a side panel had been removed and what ever was plugged into > it was not visible (may have been there but with out a major mining > operation it was hard to tell). After about 20 minutes I thanked him and > left. > > He had said that everything was operational before being put into storage. > It looks like they just grabbed, cut and generally abused everything even > before it went into storage before receiving the additional indignity of > significant water damage. > > It's basically just scrap at this point. Very sad. > > TTFN - Guy > > > On 1/9/15 8:19 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> Take pictures! >> >> -- >> Will >> >> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 11:15 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>> I'm the one who's coming out tomorrow. ;-) So it won't be going for >>> scrap. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >>> >>> On 1/9/15 5:25 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/9/2015 10:43 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. >>>>> Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled >>>>> to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was actually >>>>> there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and >>>>> looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for >>>>> it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Not mine, not near me, not known to me: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> I talked to the owner for quite a while tonight and got some >>>> information. >>>> He is very interested in moving it and is sending photos. He said >>>> someone >>>> is coming to take a look at it tomorrow in Freemont. I will post the >>>> photos he sends me tonight. >>>> >>>> I hope someone buys it for other than gold. I am not set up to address >>>> this sort of a deal myself, and am passing the info along to who may be >>>> able >>>> to. >>>> >>>> I told him about cctalk and ibm vintage lists, so if you are on that, >>>> that >>>> is the secret handshake as far as what I told him, vs. a scrap dealer. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Jim >>> >>> > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 10 20:09:52 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 18:09:52 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> <54B0A760.5080104@shiresoft.com> <54B1D189.7030305@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <54B1DB70.7010307@shiresoft.com> My impression...he's an idiot. He didn't really think it was in that bad shape. One quote was "I'm sure someone still makes these parts". Uh...no! TTFN - Guy On 1/10/15 6:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > So what was the guy like? > > Did he completely deflect any opinions on the condition? Did he > acknowledge the mess? > > -- > Will > > On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> I had planned to. Unfortunately the condition of everything was even worse >> than what Lyle had described. >> >> In addition to the water damage (chassis rusted on the CPU and at least one >> control unit), it was hard to see what all was there because of all of the >> junk (tables, A/C condensers, random other *heavy* junk) all piled *on top* >> of the CPU, terminals (a heavy table was being supported by a number of HP >> terminals...when I tried to move the table to get a better view of stuff you >> could hear things "crunch"). I did get enough stuff out of the way to at >> least glance at the 4341. It was really sad. 3 major cables had been cut. >> It looked like a side panel had been removed and what ever was plugged into >> it was not visible (may have been there but with out a major mining >> operation it was hard to tell). After about 20 minutes I thanked him and >> left. >> >> He had said that everything was operational before being put into storage. >> It looks like they just grabbed, cut and generally abused everything even >> before it went into storage before receiving the additional indignity of >> significant water damage. >> >> It's basically just scrap at this point. Very sad. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> >> On 1/9/15 8:19 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Take pictures! >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 11:15 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> I'm the one who's coming out tomorrow. ;-) So it won't be going for >>>> scrap. >>>> >>>> TTFN - Guy >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/9/15 5:25 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 1/9/2015 10:43 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >>>>>> I believe these are the same ones advertised a year or so ago. >>>>>> Lyle and I went to see them and found a storage building piled >>>>>> to the ceiling with stuff. It was impossible to see what was actually >>>>>> there, though what could be seen had heavy water damage and >>>>>> looked to be in bad shape. At the time he was asking $5000 for >>>>>> it all so we just walked away. Might be a lot cheaper now. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, January 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Jason T >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Not mine, not near me, not known to me: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sys/4837367667.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> I talked to the owner for quite a while tonight and got some >>>>> information. >>>>> He is very interested in moving it and is sending photos. He said >>>>> someone >>>>> is coming to take a look at it tomorrow in Freemont. I will post the >>>>> photos he sends me tonight. >>>>> >>>>> I hope someone buys it for other than gold. I am not set up to address >>>>> this sort of a deal myself, and am passing the info along to who may be >>>>> able >>>>> to. >>>>> >>>>> I told him about cctalk and ibm vintage lists, so if you are on that, >>>>> that >>>>> is the secret handshake as far as what I told him, vs. a scrap dealer. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Jim >>>> From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jan 10 20:09:58 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 20:09:58 -0600 Subject: Motorola Envoy PDA? In-Reply-To: <54B1B1B3.1050102@snarc.net> References: <20150111045946.6FF9D2073EEA@huey.classiccmp.org> <54B1B1B3.1050102@snarc.net> Message-ID: At 05:11 PM 1/10/2015, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>Anyone out there interested in a Motorola Envoy of the MagicCap era of personal devices, circa 1994? > >Interested as in buying, or interested as in a valid cctalk discussion subject? >No to the former. Yes to the latter. A friend gave me one a few years ago. Pretty much new in box. I should get rid of it one way or another. Because I saw none on the eBays, I assumed it wasn't rare and valuable. - John From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 20:51:33 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 18:51:33 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> I talked to the owner maybe 6 months ago. It was a bizarre and difficult interaction. He refused to let me see the units, and insisted I give him an offer first. He would not even give me the list of the items he had. We went into a circular discussion: that I couldn't give him an offer if I didn't know nor see what the items were, to which he replied that if I were a serious buyer I would make him an offer beforehand, therefore I was not serious and he would not show me the items nor give me the list. So that was not very helpful. Then later on he sent me 3 or 4 close up pictures of only the name badges of some of the machines (one badge from HP, maybe two of IBM). I got the distinct impression that either something was fishy or that the guy had unreasonable expectations. Or maybe both. I just gave up. Looks like you are faring much better than me, so that's positive. I am interested in the IBM system, the tapes and tape controller units mainly, if you don't want them. Marc On 1/9/15 6:38 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > When Bob and I initially talked to the owner, he told us that what he > had was a major find for a collector. He spoke in glowing terms as to > the condition of the 4341 and the HP mini (de-installed from a running > environment and then stored for many years). So as you would expect, > Bob and I were very anxious to see both systems. What we found was a > serious disappointment. As Bob said, the 4341 and the HP mini were > crammed into a storage unit with lots of other junk. It was impossible > to see/determine what system components were actually there. There was > no way to know how complete or what features either system had. > Repeating what Bob said, everything was water damaged, rusty and in > poor condition - and I do mean everything. We told him that his asking > price was too high - and that the condition of the systems was so bad > we wouldn't even make him an offer. Lyle Well that's a disappointment. I'm still going to take a look at it tomorrow...but I'm going to be prepared to walk away from it. TTFN - Guy From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jan 10 20:53:07 2015 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 18:53:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Found an EEPROM programmer that works with Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jan 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > Thanks for the tip, David - Linux-friendly hardware is always Good News! > But might you provide a little more information? > > Searching eBay for "TL866CS", dozens of listings turn-up, each offering > different combinations of adapters, cables and other ancillary items in > addition to the chip burner itself. > > Could you offer a little more info on what's what, why one might select one > set / sub-set / super-set of parts over another, and so forth? I chose this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/301392380440) because it was in the US already, the price was right, and the adapters are ones that I think I might use. More adapters are available for very little money. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 10 21:41:28 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 19:41:28 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> Message-ID: <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> Yes, I tried to talk to him at about the same time and got nowhere. This time I made an actual offer but I needed to see it and might up it depending upon the condition. As you can see from my earlier posts today that because of the way it was put into storage and the way it was stored it's basically all just scrap now which is too bad. TTFN - Guy On 1/10/15 6:51 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > I talked to the owner maybe 6 months ago. It was a bizarre and difficult > interaction. He refused to let me see the units, and insisted I give him an > offer first. He would not even give me the list of the items he had. We went > into a circular discussion: that I couldn't give him an offer if I didn't > know nor see what the items were, to which he replied that if I were a > serious buyer I would make him an offer beforehand, therefore I was not > serious and he would not show me the items nor give me the list. So that was > not very helpful. Then later on he sent me 3 or 4 close up pictures of only > the name badges of some of the machines (one badge from HP, maybe two of > IBM). I got the distinct impression that either something was fishy or that > the guy had unreasonable expectations. Or maybe both. I just gave up. Looks > like you are faring much better than me, so that's positive. I am interested > in the IBM system, the tapes and tape controller units mainly, if you don't > want them. > Marc > > > On 1/9/15 6:38 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> When Bob and I initially talked to the owner, he told us that what he >> had was a major find for a collector. He spoke in glowing terms as to >> the condition of the 4341 and the HP mini (de-installed from a running >> environment and then stored for many years). So as you would expect, >> Bob and I were very anxious to see both systems. What we found was a >> serious disappointment. As Bob said, the 4341 and the HP mini were >> crammed into a storage unit with lots of other junk. It was impossible >> to see/determine what system components were actually there. There was >> no way to know how complete or what features either system had. >> Repeating what Bob said, everything was water damaged, rusty and in >> poor condition - and I do mean everything. We told him that his asking >> price was too high - and that the condition of the systems was so bad >> we wouldn't even make him an offer. Lyle > Well that's a disappointment. I'm still going to take a look at it > tomorrow...but I'm going to be prepared to walk away from it. > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > > From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Jan 10 23:23:55 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 23:23:55 -0600 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B1D79B.40003@shiresoft.com> References: <1420829028.27258.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <54B07F86.8080501@jwsss.com> <54B0A760.5080104@shiresoft.com> <54B1D189.7030305@shiresoft.com> <54B1D79B.40003@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20150111052355.GB25304@lonesome.com> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 05:53:31PM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > The 4341 wasn't quite as bad as: > http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/rescue/index.html but the end result > I think was worse. brrrrrrrrrr. /me has to go lie down mcl From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jan 11 00:11:29 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 22:11:29 -0800 Subject: Making Sergey's XT-CF-Lite board work In-Reply-To: <54AF379D.4070203@dunnington.plus.com> References: <54AF379D.4070203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <913B35D1-C123-4472-BB86-8FCB77833A97@nf6x.net> > On Jan 8, 2015, at 18:06, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 09/01/2015 01:32, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I ordered a couple XT-CF-Lite boards as described in >> http://www.malinov.com/Home/sergeys-projects/xt-cf-lite. Has anyone >> else here built and used this? I have a problem with the BIOS. Either >> Sergey specified the wrong size EEPROM or provided the wrong BIOS >> image. The specified EEPROM holds 8192 bytes while the BIOS image is >> 32,768 bytes. I sent an email to Sergey, but I thought I'd ask here too. > > I downloaded it to look: only the first 8K is used. The rest is all 0xFF, ie blank. Yes, identical experience here: I was also confused by the oversized image, until I looked at it, tried it using only the first 8k, and found that it worked. I had some initial trouble with a batch of CF cards that ended up being incompatible for some reason, but now I can boot my IBM 5155 from the card. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From bobvines00 at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 09:11:21 2015 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 10:11:21 -0500 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jan 2015 06:06:02 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > I mentioned using a good continuity tracer that is not fooled by diodes. This > will handle any parasitic junctions in ICs, etc. If you get to know the instrument > you will not have problems from false positives. > > -tony Tony, What continuity tracer do you use? Can you recommend a "good continuity tracer that is not fooled by diodes" that can be built/purchased for not a lot of money? Thanks, Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 10 10:04:43 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 16:04:43 +0000 Subject: Reverse engineering vintage PCBs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > What continuity tracer do you use? Can you recommend a "good > continuity tracer that is not fooled by diodes" that can be > built/purchased for not a lot of money? Amazingly the diode test/beep range of a fairly cheap DMM works well (better in a lot of cases than the one on a more expensive DMM). The range applies a contant current through the probes and displays the voltage between them. The beeper is triggered by an analogue comparator set to less than the forward voltage of a silicon diode. This has an advantage of the scheme used on more expensive meters which compare the digital output of the ADC with some threshold value, meaning the beeper only triggers after an ADC conversion. This is a right pain in that it takes long enough that you can't stroke the probe along a line of pins and hope to find the one that is connected. And of course the treshold is low enough that a diode will not trigger the beep. -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 18:53:58 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 19:53:58 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/I at the RICM Message-ID: We did more debugging on the PDP-8/I today. The individual CLA and CMA instructions work OK, but the combined CLA CMA instruction does not set all of the AC bits to 1s. Tracing with a 'scope found that the AC ENABLE signal was not active during the combined CLA CMA instruction. Replacing the M160 in slot E30 fixed the missing AC ENABLE signals and fixed the combined CLA CMA instruction. The Instruction Test 1 and Instruction Test 2 diagnostics ran OK, so the processor is probably working fine. The TC01 DECtape diags did not run as expected so we need to read the manual before we try it again next week -- Michael Thompson From jws at jwsss.com Sun Jan 11 03:41:29 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 01:41:29 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/I at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54B24549.6020507@jwsss.com> On 1/10/2015 4:53 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > We did more debugging on the PDP-8/I today. The individual CLA and CMA > instructions work OK, but the combined CLA CMA instruction does not set all > of the AC bits to 1s. Tracing with a 'scope found that the AC ENABLE signal > was not active during the combined CLA CMA instruction. Replacing the M160 > in slot E30 fixed the missing AC ENABLE signals and fixed the combined CLA > CMA instruction. The Instruction Test 1 and Instruction Test 2 diagnostics > ran OK, so the processor is probably working fine. The TC01 DECtape diags > did not run as expected so we need to read the manual before we try it > again next week > Stab in the dark from discussion with Sherman Foy last night. When instructions don't play nice together, the timing may be off. Apparently timing on the E at least worked in many cases because the speed of some of the IC's at the time they were new caused the timing to be different on old systems. Another client who was (and is) servicing old systems had him looking at the problem in systems which were remote and ran for years at a time. When turned off they frequently would not come up. Anyway the client actually found that the problem could also be fixed by the fact that the bypass caps were all old. He replaced the bypass caps on the timing board, and joy. I don't know if this will translate to any problem on the I you are looking for, but he found it by looking at the signals on a logic analyzer and noticing they were not the same with different timing boards. In the I the logic is probably on more boards, but older logic might have more problems if you replaced problem IC's with newer faster and less delay parts. Using older parts was not a full solution (to try to get similar timing to the older circuits.) Just tossing it out as a place to look thanks Jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Jan 11 03:50:09 2015 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 01:50:09 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> On 1/10/2015 7:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Yes, I tried to talk to him at about the same time and got nowhere. > This time I made an actual > offer but I needed to see it and might up it depending upon the > condition. As you can see from > my earlier posts today that because of the way it was put into storage > and the way it was stored > it's basically all just scrap now which is too bad. > > TTFN - Guy > I talked to him at length and got a little more on the story. The path the systems took apparently was from a company where he worked, then idle. The company donated them to a local college where they were used in some capacity for a while then stored. The storage was not under his control, and though he'd had direct interaction when it was originally in production, he did admit that he thought some damage had occurred when the college had stored the units. I'm willing to say that my impression of the guy is that he had very high expectations of what he had stored, and has invested a lot in it, but doesn't get what is really required to make these things go. When you deal with people heavily invested in something they are not realistic, and will want more than an item should be priced at. He may or may not be at the end of his capability to store it or whatever where it is, he says he needs to sell it as he has imminent plans to move to NM, so that deadline is self imposed, and should not legitimately impact the negotiation. Just he should be and seems to be more open to negotiating now. I'm sad to hear it was damaged as badly as it was, had high hopes the 4341 had at least stayed closed and somewhat safe. I think the console controller is in the end chassis. The main swing outs have the main processor. Don't try to swing them one at a time, the thing will tip. Jim > On 1/10/15 6:51 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: >> I talked to the owner maybe 6 months ago. It was a bizarre and difficult >> interaction. He refused to let me see the units, and insisted I give >> him an >> offer first. He would not even give me the list of the items he had. >> We went >> into a circular discussion: that I couldn't give him an offer if I >> didn't >> know nor see what the items were, to which he replied that if I were a >> serious buyer I would make him an offer beforehand, therefore I was not >> serious and he would not show me the items nor give me the list. So >> that was >> not very helpful. Then later on he sent me 3 or 4 close up pictures >> of only >> the name badges of some of the machines (one badge from HP, maybe two of >> IBM). I got the distinct impression that either something was fishy >> or that >> the guy had unreasonable expectations. Or maybe both. I just gave up. >> Looks >> like you are faring much better than me, so that's positive. I am >> interested >> in the IBM system, the tapes and tape controller units mainly, if you >> don't >> want them. >> Marc >> >> >> On 1/9/15 6:38 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: >>> When Bob and I initially talked to the owner, he told us that what he >>> had was a major find for a collector. He spoke in glowing terms as to >>> the condition of the 4341 and the HP mini (de-installed from a running >>> environment and then stored for many years). So as you would expect, >>> Bob and I were very anxious to see both systems. What we found was a >>> serious disappointment. As Bob said, the 4341 and the HP mini were >>> crammed into a storage unit with lots of other junk. It was impossible >>> to see/determine what system components were actually there. There was >>> no way to know how complete or what features either system had. >>> Repeating what Bob said, everything was water damaged, rusty and in >>> poor condition - and I do mean everything. We told him that his asking >>> price was too high - and that the condition of the systems was so bad >>> we wouldn't even make him an offer. Lyle >> Well that's a disappointment. I'm still going to take a look at it >> tomorrow...but I'm going to be prepared to walk away from it. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Jan 11 04:09:37 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 11:09:37 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/I at the RICM In-Reply-To: <54B24549.6020507@jwsss.com> References: <54B24549.6020507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54B24BE1.7010906@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-11 10:41, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 1/10/2015 4:53 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> We did more debugging on the PDP-8/I today. The individual CLA and CMA >> instructions work OK, but the combined CLA CMA instruction does not >> set all >> of the AC bits to 1s. Tracing with a 'scope found that the AC ENABLE >> signal >> was not active during the combined CLA CMA instruction. Replacing the >> M160 >> in slot E30 fixed the missing AC ENABLE signals and fixed the combined >> CLA >> CMA instruction. The Instruction Test 1 and Instruction Test 2 >> diagnostics >> ran OK, so the processor is probably working fine. The TC01 DECtape diags >> did not run as expected so we need to read the manual before we try it >> again next week >> > Stab in the dark from discussion with Sherman Foy last night. When > instructions don't play nice together, the timing may be off. Apparently > timing on the E at least worked in many cases because the speed of some > of the IC's at the time they were new caused the timing to be different > on old systems. > > Another client who was (and is) servicing old systems had him looking at > the problem in systems which were remote and ran for years at a time. > When turned off they frequently would not come up. > > Anyway the client actually found that the problem could also be fixed by > the fact that the bypass caps were all old. He replaced the bypass caps > on the timing board, and joy. > > I don't know if this will translate to any problem on the I you are > looking for, but he found it by looking at the signals on a logic > analyzer and noticing they were not the same with different timing > boards. In the I the logic is probably on more boards, but older > logic might have more problems if you replaced problem IC's with newer > faster and less delay parts. Using older parts was not a full solution > (to try to get similar timing to the older circuits.) > > Just tossing it out as a place to look Re-read the post. They fixed the CPU. Their problem now is a DECtape controller. Johnny From jws at jwsss.com Sun Jan 11 04:52:21 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 02:52:21 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/I at the RICM In-Reply-To: <54B24BE1.7010906@update.uu.se> References: <54B24549.6020507@jwsss.com> <54B24BE1.7010906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54B255E5.2040100@jwsss.com> On 1/11/2015 2:09 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-01-11 10:41, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> On 1/10/2015 4:53 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >>> We did more debugging on the PDP-8/I today. The individual CLA and CMA >>> instructions work OK, but the combined CLA CMA instruction does not >>> set all >>> of the AC bits to 1s. Tracing with a 'scope found that the AC ENABLE >>> signal >>> was not active during the combined CLA CMA instruction. Replacing the >>> M160 >>> in slot E30 fixed the missing AC ENABLE signals and fixed the combined >>> CLA >>> CMA instruction. The Instruction Test 1 and Instruction Test 2 >>> diagnostics >>> ran OK, so the processor is probably working fine. The TC01 DECtape >>> diags >>> did not run as expected so we need to read the manual before we try it >>> again next week >>> >> Stab in the dark from discussion with Sherman Foy last night. When >> instructions don't play nice together, the timing may be off. Apparently >> timing on the E at least worked in many cases because the speed of some >> of the IC's at the time they were new caused the timing to be different >> on old systems. >> >> Another client who was (and is) servicing old systems had him looking at >> the problem in systems which were remote and ran for years at a time. >> When turned off they frequently would not come up. >> >> Anyway the client actually found that the problem could also be fixed by >> the fact that the bypass caps were all old. He replaced the bypass caps >> on the timing board, and joy. >> >> I don't know if this will translate to any problem on the I you are >> looking for, but he found it by looking at the signals on a logic >> analyzer and noticing they were not the same with different timing >> boards. In the I the logic is probably on more boards, but older >> logic might have more problems if you replaced problem IC's with newer >> faster and less delay parts. Using older parts was not a full solution >> (to try to get similar timing to the older circuits.) >> >> Just tossing it out as a place to look > > Re-read the post. They fixed the CPU. Their problem now is a DECtape > controller. > > Johnny > > I see that now. From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 04:59:22 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 04:59:22 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/I at the RICM In-Reply-To: <54B255E5.2040100@jwsss.com> References: <54B24549.6020507@jwsss.com> <54B24BE1.7010906@update.uu.se> <54B255E5.2040100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, That's still good info to know. Thanks, Paul On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 4:52 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 1/11/2015 2:09 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2015-01-11 10:41, jwsmobile wrote: >> >>> >>> On 1/10/2015 4:53 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >>> >>>> We did more debugging on the PDP-8/I today. The individual CLA and CMA >>>> instructions work OK, but the combined CLA CMA instruction does not >>>> set all >>>> of the AC bits to 1s. Tracing with a 'scope found that the AC ENABLE >>>> signal >>>> was not active during the combined CLA CMA instruction. Replacing the >>>> M160 >>>> in slot E30 fixed the missing AC ENABLE signals and fixed the combined >>>> CLA >>>> CMA instruction. The Instruction Test 1 and Instruction Test 2 >>>> diagnostics >>>> ran OK, so the processor is probably working fine. The TC01 DECtape >>>> diags >>>> did not run as expected so we need to read the manual before we try it >>>> again next week >>>> >>>> Stab in the dark from discussion with Sherman Foy last night. When >>> instructions don't play nice together, the timing may be off. Apparently >>> timing on the E at least worked in many cases because the speed of some >>> of the IC's at the time they were new caused the timing to be different >>> on old systems. >>> >>> Another client who was (and is) servicing old systems had him looking at >>> the problem in systems which were remote and ran for years at a time. >>> When turned off they frequently would not come up. >>> >>> Anyway the client actually found that the problem could also be fixed by >>> the fact that the bypass caps were all old. He replaced the bypass caps >>> on the timing board, and joy. >>> >>> I don't know if this will translate to any problem on the I you are >>> looking for, but he found it by looking at the signals on a logic >>> analyzer and noticing they were not the same with different timing >>> boards. In the I the logic is probably on more boards, but older >>> logic might have more problems if you replaced problem IC's with newer >>> faster and less delay parts. Using older parts was not a full solution >>> (to try to get similar timing to the older circuits.) >>> >>> Just tossing it out as a place to look >>> >> >> Re-read the post. They fixed the CPU. Their problem now is a DECtape >> controller. >> >> Johnny >> >> >> I see that now. > From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jan 11 09:15:09 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 10:15:09 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> On 1/11/2015 4:50 AM, jim s wrote: > > I talked to him at length and got a little more on the story. ... > ... [snip] > I'm willing to say that my impression of the guy is that he had very > high expectations of what he had stored... > No wonder. As a buyer, the worst thing you can do with any seller is have a bunch of people calling up, expressing interest, and informing the seller that he has special items and that there are special groups of people out there who are interested. Now the seller's beliefs in a high value are confirmed. It's far better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has junk only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly squat. The more who call, the more the sellers hopes are raised. Why people who have no actual capability of purchasing these items are calling the seller up and taking up their time, is beyond me. All you do is raise the difficulty of negotiations for the actual guy who might end up buying the items. Any actual buyer is fully capable of getting all the answers they need without your interference. For the similar reasons, as a frequent buyer, it also highly annoys me when systems on eBay or Craiglist are found and rebroadcasted here. Now, my chance find has been made aware to a much wider audience, the competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more. Of course, there's sellers here too who benefit from the rebroadcasting. But I say, let them broadcast themselves. - J. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 11 09:58:37 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 07:58:37 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <54B29DAD.6000208@bitsavers.org> On 1/11/15 7:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Now, my chance find has been made aware to a much wider > audience, the competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more. It sure sucks to be you. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 11 10:01:11 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 08:01:11 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B29DAD.6000208@bitsavers.org> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B29DAD.6000208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54B29E47.4020803@bitsavers.org> On 1/11/15 7:58 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/11/15 7:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> Now, my chance find has been made aware to a much wider >> audience, the competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more. > > It sure sucks to be you. > And dealing with people like you is why I got out of hardware collecting. From scaron at umich.edu Sun Jan 11 10:34:45 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 11:34:45 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Sheesh! Not so collegial! My take has always been, if you find a hidden gem, great, but if it gets blown up and the item's got buyers swarming and the price is shooting up, c'est la vie... Nobody owes us cheap additions to all our personal collections (though of course it's nice when it happens anyway). I do miss the "old days" when so much of this stuff was just generally available for the taking, nobody would have ever thought to fight over it! Best, Sean On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > On 1/11/2015 4:50 AM, jim s wrote: > >> >> I talked to him at length and got a little more on the story. ... >> ... [snip] >> I'm willing to say that my impression of the guy is that he had very high >> expectations of what he had stored... >> >> No wonder. As a buyer, the worst thing you can do with any seller is > have a bunch of people calling up, expressing interest, and informing the > seller that he has special items and that there are special groups of > people out there who are interested. Now the seller's beliefs in a high > value are confirmed. > > It's far better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has junk > only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly squat. > > The more who call, the more the sellers hopes are raised. > > Why people who have no actual capability of purchasing these items are > calling the seller up and taking up their time, is beyond me. All you do > is raise the difficulty of negotiations for the actual guy who might end up > buying the items. > > Any actual buyer is fully capable of getting all the answers they need > without your interference. > > For the similar reasons, as a frequent buyer, it also highly annoys me > when systems on eBay or Craiglist are found and rebroadcasted here. Now, > my chance find has been made aware to a much wider audience, the > competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more. > > Of course, there's sellers here too who benefit from the rebroadcasting. > But I say, let them broadcast themselves. > > - J. > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 10:46:14 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 11:46:14 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> Message-ID: >I am interested > in the IBM system, the tapes and tape controller units mainly, if you don't > want them. Do be too upset if the 3803 and 3420 get junked - they are still out in the wild. Don't wait too long, however, or they will all be gone. I suppose some of the Bay Area people will keep an eye on this guy. If someone does finally talk him down to Earth, please let us all know. I can use parts from the 3830 (the best thing in the pile). -- Will From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 11:15:22 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 17:15:22 -0000 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <05c001d02dc2$2f1735e0$8d45a1a0$@gmail.com> Seems to me as several have viewed and walked away the price should be coming down not going up. I also bet the important things such as the MAPS and Hardware manuals are missing, He might have tape drives but does he have any tapes? So whilst I haven't seen it I can't comment on how salvageable this 4341 is, but even if it had been carefully removed, re-installing after 10 years in good storage would be a challenge. I had a 4361 installed in a lecture theatre in a local University. It was shipped by IBM from its previous location so it was well packed etc. It was a nightmare getting enough power to run the thing. We needed around 60amps 240v three phase. I just wish I had kept the Physical Planning Manuals. Given the condition reports I have seen I imagine it will go for scrap, I don't think there is much gold in a 4341 but there is a lot of steel... .. Reminds me of the case of the Blackpool Vulcan bomber sold on e-bay for ?15,000. Estimated cost of move ?20K + ?1k per week storage costs. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/4181657.stm it was eventually sold for scrap for ?4000. I don't know if the vendor was ever paid his money. I think probably not... .. the buyer now apparently has a Harrier Jump Jet instead.... Dave Wade G4UGM (When this happened ?1 was about $1.10) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean > Caron > Sent: 11 January 2015 16:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 > > Sheesh! Not so collegial! My take has always been, if you find a hidden gem, > great, but if it gets blown up and the item's got buyers swarming and the > price is shooting up, c'est la vie... Nobody owes us cheap additions to all our > personal collections (though of course it's nice when it happens anyway). I do > miss the "old days" when so much of this stuff was just generally available for > the taking, nobody would have ever thought to fight over it! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com > wrote: > > > On 1/11/2015 4:50 AM, jim s wrote: > > > >> > >> I talked to him at length and got a little more on the story. ... > >> ... [snip] > >> I'm willing to say that my impression of the guy is that he had very > >> high expectations of what he had stored... > >> > >> No wonder. As a buyer, the worst thing you can do with any seller is > > have a bunch of people calling up, expressing interest, and informing > > the seller that he has special items and that there are special groups of > > people out there who are interested. Now the seller's beliefs in a high > > value are confirmed. > > > > It's far better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has > > junk only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly > squat. > > > > The more who call, the more the sellers hopes are raised. > > > > Why people who have no actual capability of purchasing these items are > > calling the seller up and taking up their time, is beyond me. All you > > do is raise the difficulty of negotiations for the actual guy who > > might end up buying the items. > > > > Any actual buyer is fully capable of getting all the answers they need > > without your interference. > > > > For the similar reasons, as a frequent buyer, it also highly annoys me > > when systems on eBay or Craiglist are found and rebroadcasted here. > > Now, my chance find has been made aware to a much wider audience, the > > competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more. > > > > Of course, there's sellers here too who benefit from the rebroadcasting. > > But I say, let them broadcast themselves. > > > > - J. > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 11:29:37 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:29:37 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <05c001d02dc2$2f1735e0$8d45a1a0$@gmail.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <05c001d02dc2$2f1735e0$8d45a1a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Seems to me as several have viewed and walked away the price should be coming down not going up. I also bet the important things such as the MAPS and Hardware manuals are missing, He might have tape drives but does he have any tapes? Or the IMPL floppies for the 4341 or the 3830, for that matter. Originals are *required* or there will be no fun, as I think they are serial numbered to the specific machines. I do not know about the 4341, but don't think that you can just rewrite the IMPL to a new disk for the 3830, as it is one of those first generation 8 inch types. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 11:01:40 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:01:40 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > It's far better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has junk > only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly squat. The problem is that most collectors pay diddlier squat. -- Will From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 11 11:49:19 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 09:49:19 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <05c001d02dc2$2f1735e0$8d45a1a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54B2B79F.5050801@shiresoft.com> On 1/11/15 9:29 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Seems to me as several have viewed and walked away the price should be coming down not going up. I also bet the important things such as the MAPS and Hardware manuals are missing, He might have tape drives but does he have any tapes? > Or the IMPL floppies for the 4341 or the 3830, for that matter. > Originals are *required* or there will be no fun, as I think they are > serial numbered to the specific machines. I do not know about the > 4341, but don't think that you can just rewrite the IMPL to a new disk > for the 3830, as it is one of those first generation 8 inch types. Yea, that was one of the things that I specifically asked about and all I got was a blank stare. The reality is that if someone *really* needed some of the parts it might be worth it depending upon how much you really had to spend. What killed it for me was the fact that everything was buried and it would have taken at least 3-4 hours of digging (with a number of people...I wasn't going to be able to move some of the piled up junk by myself) just to figure out what was actually there. I might have felt differently if the 4341, etc were in better condition (from at least what I could see). But given the condition and not knowing what else was there it was really a pig-in-a-poke. TTFN - Guy From scaron at umich.edu Sun Jan 11 11:52:15 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:52:15 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Just the nature of the beast? There are only so many Paul Allens. I mean, this is just fun for me, I'm not planning on it paying for my retirement in 40 years, LOL. It seems like most of the guys with the big money to burn are into cars or something ;) I look at it more, we're all doing a service to posterity by warehousing this stuff... it's a cost center, not a profit center. Just picking this stuff up and storing it in their own facilities, the buyer is incurring their own significant costs in storage space, packing, moving and trucking, etc. Does this mean a lot of good equipment that someone could have appreciated and enjoyed gets cut up for scrap? Definitely. But I don't think collectors are, on average, deliberately being cheap. Just, disposable income isn't what it once was for a lot of people; people make an inquiry or an offer... can't blame someone for asking. If we saw the reversal of 30 years worth of stagnant wages, I think we'd see prices shoot up on all kinds of stuff, vintage IT gear included. Best, Sean On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > It's far better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has junk > > only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly > squat. > > The problem is that most collectors pay diddlier squat. > > -- > Will > From isking at uw.edu Sun Jan 11 11:54:38 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 09:54:38 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/I at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: <54B24549.6020507@jwsss.com> <54B24BE1.7010906@update.uu.se> <54B255E5.2040100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Once upon a time, I was troubleshooting an intermittent problem on the PDP-8/e on the LCM exhibit floor. What I discovered was that one of the double-shift instructions wasn't working (which wasn't intermittent - it failed whenever that instruction was part of the mix). I had to get the machine back in running condition since it was on the floor, so I swapped in a spare CPU and set the other boards aside for further analysis - and of course, that's where they still sit. :-) But this illustrates the point made here: the ICs do change in their timing characteristics over time, and some of these designs were right on the hairy edge of specs. Another illustration of that: a one-shot in the data-break controller (ISTR) that was being used (by design, per the engineering drawings) right at the lower edge of its timing range. On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 2:59 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Jim, > > That's still good info to know. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 4:52 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > > > On 1/11/2015 2:09 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > >> On 2015-01-11 10:41, jwsmobile wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> On 1/10/2015 4:53 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > >>> > >>>> We did more debugging on the PDP-8/I today. The individual CLA and CMA > >>>> instructions work OK, but the combined CLA CMA instruction does not > >>>> set all > >>>> of the AC bits to 1s. Tracing with a 'scope found that the AC ENABLE > >>>> signal > >>>> was not active during the combined CLA CMA instruction. Replacing the > >>>> M160 > >>>> in slot E30 fixed the missing AC ENABLE signals and fixed the combined > >>>> CLA > >>>> CMA instruction. The Instruction Test 1 and Instruction Test 2 > >>>> diagnostics > >>>> ran OK, so the processor is probably working fine. The TC01 DECtape > >>>> diags > >>>> did not run as expected so we need to read the manual before we try it > >>>> again next week > >>>> > >>>> Stab in the dark from discussion with Sherman Foy last night. When > >>> instructions don't play nice together, the timing may be off. > Apparently > >>> timing on the E at least worked in many cases because the speed of some > >>> of the IC's at the time they were new caused the timing to be different > >>> on old systems. > >>> > >>> Another client who was (and is) servicing old systems had him looking > at > >>> the problem in systems which were remote and ran for years at a time. > >>> When turned off they frequently would not come up. > >>> > >>> Anyway the client actually found that the problem could also be fixed > by > >>> the fact that the bypass caps were all old. He replaced the bypass > caps > >>> on the timing board, and joy. > >>> > >>> I don't know if this will translate to any problem on the I you are > >>> looking for, but he found it by looking at the signals on a logic > >>> analyzer and noticing they were not the same with different timing > >>> boards. In the I the logic is probably on more boards, but older > >>> logic might have more problems if you replaced problem IC's with newer > >>> faster and less delay parts. Using older parts was not a full solution > >>> (to try to get similar timing to the older circuits.) > >>> > >>> Just tossing it out as a place to look > >>> > >> > >> Re-read the post. They fixed the CPU. Their problem now is a DECtape > >> controller. > >> > >> Johnny > >> > >> > >> I see that now. > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS Ph.D. Candidate The Information School University of Washington An optimist sees a glass half full. A pessimist sees it half empty. An engineer sees it twice as large as it needs to be. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 11 12:22:16 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 10:22:16 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> On 1/11/15 9:52 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > we're all doing a service > to posterity by warehousing this stuff No, you're not. You're being chumps. Museums aren't going to want it, and your family will take it to the dump when you croak. Think about it the next time you calculate how many thousands of dollars it has cost you to store your collections. From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Jan 11 12:39:07 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 10:39:07 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <020001d02dcd$e3790850$aa6b18f0$@net> > The problem is that most collectors pay diddlier squat. > I don't know if that is true. The question is if the seller has something collectable for sale. If you have a beat up, rusted, gutted item buried under junk then it really has no collectable value. It is junk and yes the junk dealer will pay more for it. However, if you have a nicely cared for system that is just being disconnected from service (properly disconnected not just cutting wires because it is easier) in working condition a collector will definitely pay more than the junk dealers. This is true across all collectable items - comics, baseball cards, cars, whatever. No one will pay top dollar for a bunch of moldy, water damages, torn up comics - why should computers be any different? Problem is that most sellers are selling junk but want collectable prices. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 11 13:34:51 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 19:34:51 +0000 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> , <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > > we're all doing a service > > to posterity by warehousing this stuff > > No, you're not. You're being chumps. I disagree. I enjoy repairing, investigating and running classic computers, and that has to be a good reason for owning them. It's no more (or less) pointless than many other hobbies. > > Museums aren't going to want it, and your family will take it And I specifically do not want any part of my collection even to be offered to a museum > to the dump when you croak. That is what a will is for (and in my case, not having any close family it's pretty much essential). You name somebody (having given them warning of what to expect) who will know what to do with the machines, etc, and will appreciate them. And yes, I have made a will. -tony From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jan 11 13:38:07 2015 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:38:07 -0700 Subject: hp16500c mainframes, denver Message-ID: <54B2D11F.1080807@e-bbes.com> Hi all, anybody in Denver Area looking for some? I have two I don't need anymore, and for a small fee, you can pick em up. Sorry, no shipping, no accessories ... From scaron at umich.edu Sun Jan 11 12:44:24 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 13:44:24 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I don't know; I think it remains to be seen, whether or not there will be an enduring market, or even an interest, for historic computer gear in the long-term... I think the last 20 years have shown more than anything that there is an enduring interest for at least some small subset of the population... But I'm on your side, really; my implication was that an active collector is often providing a real service, something of value, just by offering to come and pick this stuff up, especially when it is heavy and oversize. Definite costs there. As well as in storing it (although I'd be paying my mortgage anyway) not to mention if you want to run it, repair it, keep spares, documentation. So quite the opposite; I think the seller is delusional if they expect to get anything much out of their pile of scrap, cash-wise. I have no illusion that my own collection is going to be worth much in terms of hard cash to anyone at all, but I'm not yet willing to rule out that I might be able to find someone interested to take it for free and continue to give it a good home, when I'm on my way out. I'll have fun with it in the mean-time. We all gotta have hobbies. Enduring interest remains in all kinds of old electronics... Radios, musical instruments, hi-fi equipment, heck, the eBay price on many HP RPN calculators exceeds that of the devices new, 20, 30 years down the line (discounting inflation, of course). Why not old computers? Sure, not every single old box of electronics will be of enduring interest, but I think a few will. And let me highlight my deliberate choice of the word interest, over a term such as cash value! Best, Sean On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/11/15 9:52 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> we're all doing a service >> to posterity by warehousing this stuff >> > > No, you're not. You're being chumps. > > Museums aren't going to want it, and your family will take it > to the dump when you croak. > > Think about it the next time you calculate how many thousands > of dollars it has cost you to store your collections. > > > > > From lists at loomcom.com Sun Jan 11 12:30:29 2015 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:30:29 -0600 Subject: Need AT&T 3B2/300 EPROM images to replace ones missing in my system In-Reply-To: <7A9CFC5B-1901-4AF4-8AE8-30C616985720@typewritten.org> References: <7A9CFC5B-1901-4AF4-8AE8-30C616985720@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <20150111183029.GA5089@loomcom.com> * On Tue, Jan 06, 2015 at 09:52:10PM -0800, r.stricklin wrote: > Esteemed listmembers; > > I have started working on restoring a 3B2/300, and right away I've > discovered the probable cause for the machine's catatonic state. > Three of the system board EPROMs are missing. Hello Bear, I'm very actively working on a 3B2 emulator, so tracking down ROMs was a primary concern for me. Two very generous list members were able to dump ROMs for me -- they came from a 310 and a 400, respectively. The only difference between the 310 and 400 ROMs appears to be the ROM serial number, which is encoded as a struct at the top of ROM. Otherwise they're identical. I sent them to Al Kossow, so I think the ROM images are probably on Bitsavers now (or will be soon), but I've also create a GitHub project for them because I wanted to disassemble and study the ROM contents. That's here: https://github.com/sethm/3b2_rom The only WE32100 tools I could find were written in pre-ANSI C and proved very tedious and difficult to port, so I decided to write my own very crappy WE32100 disassembler instead. I think it was faster than trying to get the AT&T tools to compile on my mac! Still, that means there may well be errors in the disassembly, so keep that in mind. None of these ROMs match your numbers, the ones I have are AAYYC, AAYYD, AAYYE, and AAYYF. These may work for you, it's worth a shot if you have some D2764A's lying around. -Seth From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jan 11 14:18:27 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 15:18:27 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <54B2DA93.8010803@cimmeri.com> My point is only that, why unnecessarily make it harder and/or more costly for the eventual real buyer? That's not collegiality either. Sellers with no knowledge of what they're selling are using "apparent interest" as their primary calculus on their pricing, so excessive interest that isn't even real, just inflates their expectations to beyond reasonable. I'm not talking about ripping anyone off. I'm talking about keeping things REASONABLE and win-win fair. Auctions are not collegial -- they're competitive, and since when is competition a negative? But one form of collegiality would be the non-serious people not making things harder for the serious people. - J. On 1/11/2015 11:34 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Sheesh! Not so collegial! My take has always been, if you find a hidden > gem, great, but if it gets blown up and the item's got buyers swarming and > the price is shooting up, c'est la vie... Nobody owes us cheap additions to > all our personal collections (though of course it's nice when it happens > anyway). I do miss the "old days" when so much of this stuff was just > generally available for the taking, nobody would have ever thought to fight > over it! > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> On 1/11/2015 4:50 AM, jim s wrote: >> >>> I talked to him at length and got a little more on the story. ... >>> ... [snip] >>> I'm willing to say that my impression of the guy is that he had very high >>> expectations of what he had stored... >>> >>> No wonder. As a buyer, the worst thing you can do with any seller is >> have a bunch of people calling up, expressing interest, and informing the >> seller that he has special items and that there are special groups of >> people out there who are interested. Now the seller's beliefs in a high >> value are confirmed. >> >> It's far better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has junk >> only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly squat. >> >> The more who call, the more the sellers hopes are raised. >> >> Why people who have no actual capability of purchasing these items are >> calling the seller up and taking up their time, is beyond me. All you do >> is raise the difficulty of negotiations for the actual guy who might end up >> buying the items. >> >> Any actual buyer is fully capable of getting all the answers they need >> without your interference. >> >> For the similar reasons, as a frequent buyer, it also highly annoys me >> when systems on eBay or Craiglist are found and rebroadcasted here. Now, >> my chance find has been made aware to a much wider audience, the >> competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more. >> >> Of course, there's sellers here too who benefit from the rebroadcasting. >> But I say, let them broadcast themselves. >> >> - J. >> > From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jan 11 14:19:25 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 15:19:25 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <54B2DACD.2080707@cimmeri.com> On 1/11/2015 12:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> It's far better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has junk >> only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly squat. > The problem is that most collectors pay diddlier squat. > Excellent point. However, I'm not one of the diddlier squat buyers ... so hadn't considered from that angle. :-) - J. From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jan 11 14:24:50 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 15:24:50 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> On 1/11/2015 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/11/15 9:52 AM, Sean Caron wrote: >> we're all doing a service >> to posterity by warehousing this stuff > > No, you're not. You're being chumps. > > Museums aren't going to want it, and > your family will take it > to the dump when you croak. > > Think about it the next time you > calculate how many thousands > of dollars it has cost you to store > your collections. > Sad but true words, most likely... Unless these machines somehow come into a market as do vintage automobiles. Now, question to ponder, was the market for automobiles *created* and manipulated into existence by market makers and public relationists? Because old cars are a real damn bitch to take care of, restore, keep going, house, etc. Computers are MUCH easier and less costly.. and in some ways, in every way bit as fun (to me, anyway -- I have both vintage cars and vintage computers). If the auto market was guiled into existence, then someone, sometime, will create the buzz for such a thing in vintage computers as well.. because wherever there is money to be made, someone will eventually make it. - J. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 11 14:50:05 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 14:50:05 -0600 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <005c01d02de0$2e365020$8aa2f060$@classiccmp.org> Actually.... I (as well as others here) have been known to take a system that was a pretty destroyed pile of rust/mouseHabitat and get it fairly displayable/running again. It takes a HUGE amount of work and time, but it can often be done. >From the pictures, I can tell both systems are probably in fairly far gone condition and would be at the top end of the "barely possible to restore" ranking. These systems have a smaller market for purchase because not "a majority" of the collectors around could easily restore them and get them running. Major Tough Project. That being said... I've always wanted a 43xx and an HP3K both, but I simply don't have the bandwidth to commit to that extensive of a restoration at this point. Hopefully someone else on the list does, or can at least house them till such a time as someone does. They are both sought-after systems, particularly by me. On the whole price debate.... given the condition these systems are in - they are fairly worthless. Scrap value at best. In moderate or fully restored condition, they are worth a lot. But the current owner needs to understand that someone is going to spend 10 times his asking price getting them restored and as such, he can't ask more than scrap for them. J From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 15:09:03 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 21:09:03 -0000 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <005c01d02de0$2e365020$8aa2f060$@classiccmp.org> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <005c01d02de0$2e365020$8aa2f060$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00e601d02de2$d4bb7c20$7e327460$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 11 January 2015 20:50 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 > > > On the whole price debate.... given the condition these systems are in - they > are fairly worthless. Scrap value at best. In moderate or fully restored > condition, they are worth a lot. But the current owner needs to understand > that someone is going to spend 10 times his asking price getting them > restored and as such, he can't ask more than scrap for them. > > J > You see the same issues with collectible cars and motor cycles. Generally whilst it might be fun, and even mentally rewarding, to restore such an item, it will almost always be financially unrewarding. The cost of materials alone out weights the any increase in value. As for this pile of junk, I wonder if some crowd funding to restore and run this might be successful. > > > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 16:58:25 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 20:58:25 -0200 Subject: hp16500c mainframes, denver In-Reply-To: <54B2D11F.1080807@e-bbes.com> References: <54B2D11F.1080807@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: so bad you don't want to ship ;( Friends who offered me the power supply of 16500: I had some troubles in my email, I'll answer each of you later today. Very sorry! On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 5:38 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > anybody in Denver Area looking for some? > I have two I don't need anymore, and for a small fee, you can pick em up. > > Sorry, no shipping, no accessories ... > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 11 20:01:49 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 18:01:49 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> > Now, question to ponder, was the market for automobiles *created* and manipulated into existence by market makers and public relationists? Automobiles were used by individuals for four generations, the models are built to appeal to different personalities and social strata. A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked. Consumer computers are commodities. You throw them out, and since their performance improves orders of magnitude over time most people could care less about trying to use an old one. A person in 2015 can pretty easily pick up how to drive a car from their great-grandfather. They might even remember the car their great-grandfather owned. If you could find one, only an expert who knew where to look would have the faintest idea how to use a computer from the 1950's or would want to try. Thanks to the net, in a few years your latest wizbang handheld device will be as useless as an analog cell phone from the 90's. Even if you wanted you use it, you wouldn't be able to because the network infrastructure that makes it function will be gone. Seen many working Web TV's or Danger Hiptops lately? So, no, there is very little in common with the base of people collecting cars and computers and there will never be a popular movement to preserve them other that as a platform for playing games. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 11 20:29:02 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 18:29:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20150111181655.C25213@shell.lmi.net> > > Now, question to ponder, was the market for automobiles *created* and > > manipulated into existence by market makers and public relationists? On Sun, 11 Jan 2015, Al Kossow wrote: > Automobiles were used by individuals for four generations, the models > are built to appeal to different personalities and social strata. > A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed > their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked. A "significant number" of people prior to PC fixed and programmed their own computers, so they had some knowledge of how they worked. > Consumer computers are commodities. You throw them out, and since their > performance improves orders of magnitude over time most people could > care less about trying to use an old one. Most current cars are commodities. (Kia, anyone?, YUGO???) You throw them out, and since their gas mileage and reliability improves magnitudes over time, most people could care less about trying to use an old one. > A person in 2015 can pretty easily pick up how to drive a car from their > great-grandfather. They might even remember the car their > great-grandfather owned. If you could find one, only an expert who knew > where to look would have the faintest idea how to use a computer from > the 1950's or would want to try. Besides me and you, . . . What percentage of current "drivers" know how to adjust ignition timing? What percentage of current "drivers" know how to use a manual choke? What percentage of current "drivers" know how to crank start? (and if they tried, they would probably recreate the apocryphal legend about WHY Kettering developed the starter motor) > if you wanted you use it, you wouldn't be able to because the network > infrastructure that makes it function will be gone. leaded gas, and some of the other early fules) are kinda hard to come by. > So, no, there is very little in common with the base of people > collecting cars and computers and there will never be a popular movement > to preserve them other that as a platform for playing games. Most obsolete cars and computers end up kept for nostalgia, or as ornaments and toys. Few, other than ARDs, use the really old ones for their daily driving. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rickb at bensene.com Sun Jan 11 20:36:30 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 18:36:30 -0800 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This afternoon I got the drive racked up, got the drive select set to drive 1, removed the terminator from drive 0 and plugged in the bus extension cable, routed it to drive 1 and plugged it into the drive. The second drive already had the terminator it in (nice, I now have a spare). I finished routing the cabling and power cable for the second drive, and then powered up the system. I left it all sit for about 30 minutes before I tried anything. I noted that there was no LOAD indication showing up on drive 1, so I investigated. There wasn't any bulb there, so I put one in, and it lit up. Drive 0 had an OS8 boot pack in it already, and I spun it up, and it went ready just fine (a relief). I started up my SerialDisk server, and turned off the HALT switch on the 8/e, hit CLEAR, then raised and lowered the SW switch. The machine proceeded to boot using the diode ROM bootstrap for the RK8E. It booted up just fine, and I was able to access the SerialDisk drive also. So, I loaded a RK05 pack that I had formatted on drive 0 into drive 1, and flicked the LOAD switch. Things were quiet for a moment, then I could hear that the pack was spinning up, and shortly thereafter, the drive went ready. I did a "DIR RKA1:", and got an empty directory with the appropriate number of free blocks. I then did a "COPY RKA1: References: Message-ID: <54B335F4.6060807@shiresoft.com> On 1/11/15 6:36 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > This afternoon I got the drive racked up, got the drive select set to drive 1, removed the terminator from drive 0 and plugged in the bus extension cable, routed it to drive 1 and plugged it into the drive. > > The second drive already had the terminator it in (nice, I now have a spare). > > I finished routing the cabling and power cable for the second drive, and then powered up the system. I left it all sit for about 30 minutes before I tried anything. > > I noted that there was no LOAD indication showing up on drive 1, so I investigated. There wasn't any bulb there, so I put one in, and it lit up. > > Drive 0 had an OS8 boot pack in it already, and I spun it up, and it went ready just fine (a relief). I started up my SerialDisk server, and turned off the HALT switch on the 8/e, hit CLEAR, then raised and lowered the SW switch. The machine proceeded to boot using the diode ROM bootstrap for the RK8E. It booted up just fine, and I was able to access the SerialDisk drive also. > > So, I loaded a RK05 pack that I had formatted on drive 0 into drive 1, and flicked the LOAD switch. Things were quiet for a moment, then I could hear that the pack was spinning up, and shortly thereafter, the drive went ready. > > I did a "DIR RKA1:", and got an empty directory with the appropriate number of free blocks. > I then did a "COPY RKA1: > I did an RKCOPY command and copied the entirety of Drive 0 to Drive 1, with verify turned on, and it copied just fine. > > Spun down both drives, and swapped packs, and tried booting, and it succeeded. I was able to read and write files on drive 0 and drive 1 just fine, so the two drives seem (with only a little testing) seem to interchange packs OK. > > Thanks to all for the advice and discussion. Great! I've found that the RK05 is a pretty bulletproof drive. The vast majority of work that I've done on mine has been to clean the drive from disintegrated foam and replacing said foam (BTW I find that garage door weather stripping works *really* well for the task). It usually takes me 3-4 hours to go from a completely unknown drive to a working/tested drive (cleaning out & replacing the foam is the first step everything after that is dependent upon what I find while I'm doing that). I've worked on about a half dozen drives and they all work flawlessly. I have another 8 or so that I haven't done any serious work on yet mainly because I haven't had to. I'll get to them when I'm bored. ;-) TTFN - Guy From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 20:48:36 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 21:48:36 -0500 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: MAN -- feels great, doesn't it? Congrats and nice work. On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 9:36 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > This afternoon I got the drive racked up, got the drive select set to > drive 1, removed the terminator from drive 0 and plugged in the bus > extension cable, routed it to drive 1 and plugged it into the drive. > > The second drive already had the terminator it in (nice, I now have a > spare). > > I finished routing the cabling and power cable for the second drive, and > then powered up the system. I left it all sit for about 30 minutes > before I tried anything. > > I noted that there was no LOAD indication showing up on drive 1, so I > investigated. There wasn't any bulb there, so I put one in, and it lit up. > > Drive 0 had an OS8 boot pack in it already, and I spun it up, and it went > ready just fine (a relief). I started up my SerialDisk server, and turned > off the HALT switch on the 8/e, hit CLEAR, then raised and lowered the SW > switch. The machine proceeded to boot using the diode ROM bootstrap for the > RK8E. It booted up just fine, and I was able to access the SerialDisk > drive also. > > So, I loaded a RK05 pack that I had formatted on drive 0 into drive 1, and > flicked the LOAD switch. Things were quiet for a moment, then I could > hear that the pack was spinning up, and shortly thereafter, the drive went > ready. > > I did a "DIR RKA1:", and got an empty directory with the appropriate > number of free blocks. > I then did a "COPY RKA1: drive 0 to the A side of the new drive), and let it run. It took a while, > but the copy succeeded just fine. I could run stuff off the new drive just > fine after the copy had finished. Seems all is good. > > I did an RKCOPY command and copied the entirety of Drive 0 to Drive 1, > with verify turned on, and it copied just fine. > > Spun down both drives, and swapped packs, and tried booting, and it > succeeded. I was able to read and write files on drive 0 and drive 1 just > fine, so the two drives seem (with only a little testing) seem to > interchange packs OK. > > Thanks to all for the advice and discussion. > > Rick Bensene > From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 20:56:46 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 20:56:46 -0600 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > I did a "DIR RKA1:", and got an empty directory with the appropriate > number of free blocks. > I then did a "COPY RKA1: drive 0 to the A side of the new drive), and let it run. It took a while, > but the copy succeeded just fine. I could run stuff off the new drive just > fine after the copy had finished. Seems all is good. Glad to hear of your success with both the RK05s and SerialDisk! Nice to hear stories where things just come together. Kyle From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Jan 11 22:03:22 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 22:03:22 -0600 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150112040322.GB16097@lonesome.com> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 06:36:30PM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: > I noted that there was no LOAD indication showing up on drive 1, so I > investigated. There wasn't any bulb there, so I put one in, and it > lit up. Don't you just hate it when it's the easy stuff that gives you the stomachache? :-) mcl From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 22:05:18 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 22:05:18 -0600 Subject: One for the Kaypro Kids Message-ID: I have scanned and uploaded 12 issues of "Kugram," the official newsletter of the Kaypro Users' Group: https://archive.org/search.php?query=kugram&sort=-publicdate It's really "K?gram," which I'd say as "K-microgram" but the limits of character sets and convenience probably turned it into "koo-gram." And they refer to themselves as "kuggers," not "K-microgrammers." :) One odd thing about these: there's no date on the covers, just Volume and Issue numbers. However, it looks like they started publishing in January 1983. Anyone got any more issues laying around that I can add to this collection? I will pay for postage to get them to me. You can have them back, but I will have chopped their spines for easy scanning. Also, anyone want the physical copies of the ones I've scanned? Pay the postage and I'll send them out (there are two copies of a few of them.) They are chopped as well. Enjoy! -j From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 22:13:02 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 23:13:02 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <20150111181655.C25213@shell.lmi.net> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> <20150111181655.C25213@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: heh, 1969 Volkswagen Bus for my daily. (I know, I know, it's not really "antique".) On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 9:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Now, question to ponder, was the market for automobiles *created* and > > > manipulated into existence by market makers and public relationists? > > On Sun, 11 Jan 2015, Al Kossow wrote: > > Automobiles were used by individuals for four generations, the models > > are built to appeal to different personalities and social strata. > > A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed > > their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked. > A "significant number" of people prior to PC fixed and programmed their > own computers, so they had some knowledge of how they worked. > > > Consumer computers are commodities. You throw them out, and since their > > performance improves orders of magnitude over time most people could > > care less about trying to use an old one. > > Most current cars are commodities. (Kia, anyone?, YUGO???) You throw them > out, and since their gas mileage and reliability improves magnitudes over > time, most people could care less about trying to use an old one. > > > A person in 2015 can pretty easily pick up how to drive a car from their > > great-grandfather. They might even remember the car their > > great-grandfather owned. If you could find one, only an expert who knew > > where to look would have the faintest idea how to use a computer from > > the 1950's or would want to try. > > Besides me and you, . . . > What percentage of current "drivers" know how to adjust ignition timing? > What percentage of current "drivers" know how to use a manual choke? > What percentage of current "drivers" know how to crank start? > (and if they tried, they would probably recreate the apocryphal legend > about WHY Kettering developed the starter motor) > > > if you wanted you use it, you wouldn't be able to because the network > > infrastructure that makes it function will be gone. > leaded gas, and some of the other early fules) are kinda hard to come by. > > > > So, no, there is very little in common with the base of people > > collecting cars and computers and there will never be a popular movement > > to preserve them other that as a platform for playing games. > > Most obsolete cars and computers end up kept for nostalgia, or as > ornaments and toys. > Few, other than ARDs, use the really old ones for their daily driving. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 00:46:21 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 00:46:21 -0600 Subject: One for the Kaypro Kids In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For what it's worth, I just grabbed the first listing and it's dated "JAN-FEB 1986 Vol.4 No.1" on p.1 Thanks for the uploads, very neat. On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Jason T wrote: > I have scanned and uploaded 12 issues of "Kugram," the official > newsletter of the Kaypro Users' Group: > > https://archive.org/search.php?query=kugram&sort=-publicdate > > It's really "K?gram," which I'd say as "K-microgram" but the limits of > character sets and convenience probably turned it into "koo-gram." > And they refer to themselves as "kuggers," not "K-microgrammers." :) > > One odd thing about these: there's no date on the covers, just Volume > and Issue numbers. However, it looks like they started publishing in > January 1983. > > Anyone got any more issues laying around that I can add to this > collection? I will pay for postage to get them to me. You can have > them back, but I will have chopped their spines for easy scanning. > Also, anyone want the physical copies of the ones I've scanned? Pay > the postage and I'll send them out (there are two copies of a few of > them.) They are chopped as well. > > Enjoy! > > -j > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jan 12 00:49:22 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 22:49:22 -0800 Subject: Resurrecting RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150111224922.10156c9a@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 18:36:30 -0800 "Rick Bensene" wrote: > This afternoon I got the drive racked up, got the drive select set to > drive 1, removed the terminator from drive 0 and plugged in the bus > extension cable, routed it to drive 1 and plugged it into the drive. > > The second drive already had the terminator it in (nice, I now have a > spare). > > I finished routing the cabling and power cable for the second drive, > and then powered up the system. I left it all sit for about 30 > minutes before I tried anything. > > I noted that there was no LOAD indication showing up on drive 1, so I > investigated. There wasn't any bulb there, so I put one in, and it > lit up. > > Drive 0 had an OS8 boot pack in it already, and I spun it up, and it > went ready just fine (a relief). I started up my SerialDisk server, > and turned off the HALT switch on the 8/e, hit CLEAR, then raised and > lowered the SW switch. The machine proceeded to boot using the diode > ROM bootstrap for the RK8E. It booted up just fine, and I was able > to access the SerialDisk drive also. > > So, I loaded a RK05 pack that I had formatted on drive 0 into drive > 1, and flicked the LOAD switch. Things were quiet for a moment, > then I could hear that the pack was spinning up, and shortly > thereafter, the drive went ready. > > I did a "DIR RKA1:", and got an empty directory with the appropriate > number of free blocks. I then did a "COPY RKA1: everything from the SerialDisk drive 0 to the A side of the new > drive), and let it run. It took a while, but the copy succeeded just > fine. I could run stuff off the new drive just fine after the copy > had finished. Seems all is good. > > I did an RKCOPY command and copied the entirety of Drive 0 to Drive > 1, with verify turned on, and it copied just fine. > > Spun down both drives, and swapped packs, and tried booting, and it > succeeded. I was able to read and write files on drive 0 and drive 1 > just fine, so the two drives seem (with only a little testing) seem > to interchange packs OK. Nice work, Rick! Guy helped me with replacing the foam in my RK05. After that I had some debug work to do on the drive (including alignment). That was several years ago - and it's been working perfectly ever since. I've also had good long term success with several RL01s/2s that I have on a variety of systems. One thing I'm a fanatic about - whenever I get a new disk pack, I take it apart and clean all the surfaces of the pack (not just the oxide surfaces) in as close to a clean room environment as I can achieve. This also allows me to examine the oxide carefully for any crash marks or "dings". If I don't like the way a pack looks - I don't use it - period. By being careful, I've only had one head crash (RL02) ever in many years of collecting and restoring. BTW: That crash was not the result of a bad pack - but "operator" error. I somehow mounted the pack incorrectly - but good enough for the heads to load :( Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Sun Jan 11 14:42:04 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 22:42:04 +0200 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <020001d02dcd$e3790850$aa6b18f0$@net> References: , <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop>, <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com>, <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com>, <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com>, , <020001d02dcd$e3790850$aa6b18f0$@net> Message-ID: I agree. I think these all Storage Hunters, Storage Wars and other Shit Collectors "reality" TV series, is what to blame here: "What is is?" "Looks like old door but it is just probably pile of shit!" "Man, you get AT LEAST 5000$ of it!" Oh, I can't wait episode when they find full IBM 360... If I'm serious, eBay prices are totally out of this planet. Like that PDP-8, which looks like seen nuclear war (probably twice), driven over Caterpillar D9 and covered manure, price tag: 4800$. Whoooaa! Some weeks ago there was little bit beaten up System/3 on auction, start price was something like 10 000 or more. I offered couple thousand of it, which I think should be quite fair price (at my point of view fair price, I have to pay another thousand of freight, toll and taxes), but seller refused my offer. Even I really like to own one, I'm not needing that bad I spend it more than my car. I think any realistic chance to get some really good stuff is another hobbyist or just pure luck to get donated some old good stuff. But another thing is collectors. Would be reasonable if we have just some machines, those what we really, really want, not hundreds and hundreds just for standing still and collecting dust? What is value for machine which nobody can come to see, nobody use and like Al said, machine which will be dumped to scrapyard by our childrens after our journey ends? Of cource it more than nice for all if somebody collect stuff and understand its (historical or emotional) value to others. I try to do that. If I see some computer which I'm not personally interested, but I can understand somebody other would love to get it, I'll take with me. I'm not that greed that I should take profit of it, just my own costs. I tried keep my collection in reasonable state, I sold and donate all my 80s (home) computers away around year ago. It is totally insane to stock items which not mean to you that much. I have never used some Spectum, so why have to own something like that? What for? When I gave those Commodores and MSXs I made over ten people happy, when they get their childhood computers (...or they just put computers to dark warehouse, waiting for scrapyard...) I think shared fun is better fun. What I want (for my whole lifetime) is just couple minicomputers and mainframes (first is coming!), so I can use all my efforts to bring those back to life, study them and show those to people fairs and etc. I have over 50 good years ahead, but still I have no time to study all computers on the world. I introduce myself later better, but quick version: I'm from Finland and I work automation business. Interested 60s and 70s minis and mains and all things what is related same eras automation and process control. And I'm not big fan of Storage Wars... Johannes ThelenFINLAND > From: cctalk at fahimi.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 10:39:07 -0800 > > > The problem is that most collectors pay diddlier squat. > > > > I don't know if that is true. The question is if the seller has something collectable for sale. If you have a beat up, rusted, gutted item buried under junk then it really has no collectable value. It is junk and yes the junk dealer will pay more for it. However, if you have a nicely cared for system that is just being disconnected from service (properly disconnected not just cutting wires because it is easier) in working condition a collector will definitely pay more than the junk dealers. This is true across all collectable items - comics, baseball cards, cars, whatever. No one will pay top dollar for a bunch of moldy, water damages, torn up comics - why should computers be any different? > > Problem is that most sellers are selling junk but want collectable prices. > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 16:20:39 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 17:20:39 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/11/15 9:52 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> we're all doing a service >> to posterity by warehousing this stuff >> > > No, you're not. You're being chumps. > Bloody hell Al, how to win friends and influence people - NOT. That was uncalled-for. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From craig at solomonson.net Sun Jan 11 17:21:59 2015 From: craig at solomonson.net (craig at solomonson.net) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 17:21:59 -0600 Subject: 1972 Univac 8008 Micro - an early 8-bit system Message-ID: <44599A23E2644F74965477900E500370@CraigPC> A few years ago I inquired about an early 8-bit micro in my collection that I did not know the background on. Recently I found out the background of the computer and thought I would share it with the history buffs here. It was built by the Univac R&D Division in St. Paul, Minnesota in 1972. They were carefully monitoring the developments at Intel with regard to their 4004 and 8008 microprocessors being developed. Part of their research was to construct actual computer systems to research and then build an application using the 8008. They started by building a 4-bit system similar to the one I have using the SIM4-01 and MP7-01 boards. That unit was completed and being demonstrated by March of 1972. They ordered the 8-bit system (SIM8-01 and MP7-02) when it was announced in April of 1972 and construction took place during the summer of 1972. Univac designed and built their own interfaces for these systems and used a Teletype for I/O. The Univac 8008 "8-Bit Micro Computer System" in my collection was complete and being demonstrated to various Univac divisions and military organizations by early fall of 1972. I visited with one of the Univac engineers that did some of the programming and he said that only very simple programs were used in demonstrations--like doing simple math operations or it asked for your name, you typed it in on the teletype and it printed some phrase using your name. Univac spared no expense in developing this system as seen in the construction and fabrication of the cases which are thick, deep red translucent plastic. Not only is it a very aesthetically designed, but it has to be one of the very first 8-bit computers fully assembled and operational. Here is a photo of the system: http://solomonson.net/computers/Univac.8008.TTY.jpg I have also done a You Tube video telling more about the system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KojS1ezQIY From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 02:15:14 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 02:15:14 -0600 Subject: One for the Kaypro Kids In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 12:46 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > For what it's worth, I just grabbed the first listing and it's dated > "JAN-FEB 1986 Vol.4 No.1" on p.1 Yep, now that I look at the rest, they must have started that sometime in Vol 3. I have no idea why Archive's browser starts certain docs a few - or many - pages into the doc, instead of on page one. Maybe something it's pulling from the PDF? I dunno. j From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 02:24:53 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 02:24:53 -0600 Subject: One for the Kaypro Kids In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Heh, and I thought that was just me.. So no, I don't know why they seem to drop you into a random page, either. But if you think about it, it does make some sense. Page 1 is usually just a cover.. maybe they'd rather give you a preview of the real content, rather than a simple cover sheet, which might even be blank? Or, it could be a bug. ;-) On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 2:15 AM, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 12:46 AM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > For what it's worth, I just grabbed the first listing and it's dated > > "JAN-FEB 1986 Vol.4 No.1" on p.1 > > Yep, now that I look at the rest, they must have started that sometime in > Vol 3. > > I have no idea why Archive's browser starts certain docs a few - or > many - pages into the doc, instead of on page one. Maybe something > it's pulling from the PDF? I dunno. > > j > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Jan 12 03:28:09 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 01:28:09 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: , <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop>, <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com>, <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com>, <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com>, , <020001d02dcd$e3790850$aa6b18f0$@net> Message-ID: <54B393A9.8070306@jwsss.com> On 1/11/2015 12:42 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote: > I think these all Storage Hunters, Storage Wars and other Shit Collectors "reality" TV series, is what to blame here: > "What is is?" "Looks like old door but it is just probably pile of shit!" "Man, you get AT LEAST 5000$ of it!" > Oh, I can't wait episode when they find full IBM 360... I was on an episode of storage wars this year and we did our best to point out that the computers were not scrap and had value to collectors. I appraised a sale high, but have sale info to back it up. I'm pretty sure the ones on Storage Hunters made no attempt to find someone to actually appraise the find before they destroyed it. Storage Wars did make a search. I don't think the TV programs have anything to do with it, it is a lot of Ebay dealers who are making at least the asking prices be astronomical. I also did point out that the price I found was a current sale, and that most sales were for a lower value. And that the amount was more than powdering the terminal and recovering the gold. The gold value was pointed out, but the intact value would frequently be higher. What would you rather have things move for? If they have no value no-one will bother trying to preserve and sell them. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jan 12 06:29:11 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 13:29:11 +0100 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 06:01:49PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > So, no, there is very little in common with the base of people > collecting cars and computers and there will never be a > popular movement to preserve them other that as a platform for > playing games. > Not popular or widespread perhaps, but globally there are quite a number of people who wouldn't mind sinking their teeth in restoring a rare mainframe. What I find bothersome is that the techniques for doing so isn't easy to learn. There are only a few with Tonys skill level and even fewer who cares about old electronics and yet fewer who document their knowledge, tools and tricks. >From time to time I see young people (18 or so) enter the classic compuer hobby) but they have an uphill battle getting into the restoration part. There seems to be lots and lots of books for restoring old cars and houses. Where are those books for computers? Tony, when will you write one? /P From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 12 07:00:23 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 14:00:23 +0100 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <004401d02e67$bb4f7400$31ee5c00$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Pontus Pihlgren > Verzonden: maandag 12 januari 2015 13:29 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 06:01:49PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > So, no, there is very little in common with the base of people > > collecting cars and computers and there will never be a popular > > movement to preserve them other that as a platform for playing games. > > > > Not popular or widespread perhaps, but globally there are quite a number of > people who wouldn't mind sinking their teeth in restoring a rare mainframe. > > What I find bothersome is that the techniques for doing so isn't easy to learn. > There are only a few with Tonys skill level and even fewer who cares about old > electronics and yet fewer who document their knowledge, tools and tricks. > > From time to time I see young people (18 or so) enter the classic compuer > hobby) but they have an uphill battle getting into the restoration part. > > There seems to be lots and lots of books for restoring old cars and houses. > Where are those books for computers? > > Tony, when will you write one? > > /P He did wrote a lot of articles about fixing old HP equipment. But you have to be a member of the HPCC to read them. So don't hesitate and become a member.. -Rik From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 12 08:36:02 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 09:36:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Upgrading NatSemi NS23C QBUS memory Message-ID: <20150112143602.D1A0F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So it turns out the NatSemi NS23C QBUS memory card can really, really easily be upgraded from 256KB to 1MB, as it has all the necessary traces, jumpers, etc for this capability built into the card - even though the NS23C documentation says nothing about this capability! I found out about this capability when I bought a group of QBUS cards which included two NS23C cards. Looking at the chips, trying to figure out how big the cards were (I didn't at that point know the card model), I saw one had 64Kx1 chips, the other had 256Kx1 - one was 256KB, the other 1MB! Later, looking at the prints, I noticed that the memory chips had all 9 address lines wired (unlike the very similar NS23M card), and there were a couple of jumpers that appeared to adapt the card to 1MB operation. So I tried upgrading the second card, and it worked! The chips are all in sockets, so pulling the 64Kx1's and replacing them with 256Kx1's was easy. There are three jumpers one has to remove/move; alas, they are in the PCB on the top surface, although there are jumper pins there - there's a trace running between the two pins - so you have to cut the traces. The first two jumpers one has to remove are W23 and W24 (right next to the other memory size jumpers), which allow one to increase the maximum memory size to 1MB. The other jumper one has to move, is to move the 'jumper' from W40 to W41; this moves the pickup point for the 'RS0' signal, which indicates which bank of chips (there are 2x18 banks, i.e. 16 data, and separate byte parity) to activate, from address line 17 to 19. (Parenthetically, the way the address logic works on the card is slightly odd; if the card is not on a 'natural' boundary [e.g. a 256KB boundary, if it's a 256KB card], the memory contents are scrambled; the low memory, in bus address terms, is at the top of the card, in chip terms, and the high memory, in bus terms, is at the bottom of the card. I understand why they did it that way, it's the most economical in logic/traces, etc but it's something one would have to remember when looking for a bad memory chip, if the card is set to an address which is not a multiple of its size.) Not sure if anyone else out there has any of these cards, but if so, I'd be interested to hear if anyone does this. Noel From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Mon Jan 12 10:10:40 2015 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 09:10:40 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) Message-ID: This weeks question comes from Warren Stearns. It is a little obscure and specific to the PDP-8 family of computers. What is the source of the greatest latency in the interrupt system on a PDP-8. I have three answers, two of the answers depends on the options fitted to an 8. Why would this have been an important question? Interrupt latency would be extremely important in the field of data collection which was one of the principal early uses of these machines. My particular 8 was used for exactly this purpose in the Summer when it was hauled to a radar site and collected weather research data for the Institute of Atmospheric Sciences. I believe it was used for this from 1969 through 1972. I have several hundred DECTapes with some of this data. The surprising thing is we don't see any problems reading DECTapes that haven't been out of their box since the early 70's. Doug Ingraham PDP-8 S/N 1175 From scaron at umich.edu Mon Jan 12 10:10:44 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 11:10:44 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B393A9.8070306@jwsss.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <020001d02dcd$e3790850$aa6b18f0$@net> <54B393A9.8070306@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I mean, I "understand" the mindset of these sellers insofar as they think, oh, there's gotta be one big Fortune 500 company, or some government agency that is just so completely dependent on some legacy system; someday it will break down and they will need a part at any price and I WILL BE THERE! Unfortunately for them it usually doesn't work that way; especially with all the very clever emulation solutions out there, it's been possible to break the dependence of these legacy software systems, on their associated legacy hardware. So it just sits, and sits, and sits and eventually it just goes off to the scrap yard when they don't get any offers that meet their wild expectations. But that's just how it is, dealing with people who are in this as a business. They aren't going to do a deal because they want to see something historic get saved, or they want to see someone who could actually use it, enjoy it. They just want to see cash money on the table. That's fair. They're dealers, not collectors. That said, sometimes I have made an offer and noted "hey, I'm a hobbyist, not a business" and I think it's helped me win the day, so, there are vendors out there sensitive to the hobbyist community (once the inventory gets stale enough, maybe? LOL). I just like to see this stuff run, to have the opportunity to play with it; laying your hands on some real hardware if you can is just a whole different level of experience beyond an emulator, of course, I'm a "hardware guy". Al's post, it didn't bug me. Being in my line of work, I encounter lots of folks who are, ah, a bit blunt, or lacking in the social graces to one degree or another... just comes with the territory. It is, of course, food for thought. His line of thinking is definitely something we should have a cogent response for; my dad is similar in his thinking, he's had a long and successful engineering career and his general opinion is this historical preservation is a waste of time and money, "history is bunk", etc. and I've been trying to convince him of the historicity of his work personally and of all the various bits of ephemera accumulated over the course of his 40+ year career. Because I do believe this work, that was done on these computers, this software, is valuable and historically relevant... I don't believe EE/CS is uniquely "post-historic" and I think all practitioners in the field should consider the historical factors involved in their work... It's important to preserve this stuff; "you don't know where you're going until you know where you've been". Just as the architects and civil engineers have preserved strange old buildings, the aeronautical guys are preserving old aircraft, the mechanical guys are preserving old cars, locomotives, what have you... these are the artifacts of our field, our profession... why be so quick to relegate the entire historical record of computer engineering to the dustbin? Best, Sean On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 4:28 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > On 1/11/2015 12:42 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote: > >> I think these all Storage Hunters, Storage Wars and other Shit Collectors >> "reality" TV series, is what to blame here: >> "What is is?" "Looks like old door but it is just probably pile of shit!" >> "Man, you get AT LEAST 5000$ of it!" >> Oh, I can't wait episode when they find full IBM 360... >> > I was on an episode of storage wars this year and we did our best to point > out that the computers were not scrap and had value to collectors. I > appraised a sale high, but have sale info to back it up. > > I'm pretty sure the ones on Storage Hunters made no attempt to find > someone to actually appraise the find before they destroyed it. Storage > Wars did make a search. > > I don't think the TV programs have anything to do with it, it is a lot of > Ebay dealers who are making at least the asking prices be astronomical. > > I also did point out that the price I found was a current sale, and that > most sales were for a lower value. And that the amount was more than > powdering the terminal and recovering the gold. The gold value was pointed > out, but the intact value would frequently be higher. > > What would you rather have things move for? If they have no value no-one > will bother trying to preserve and sell them. > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 10:21:31 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 11:21:31 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Automobiles were used by individuals for four generations, the models are > built to appeal to different personalities and social strata. > A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed > their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked. Almost everyone can relate to autos. In many countries, learning to drive happens during the late teenage / early twenties, and tends to leave an indelible mark on people, as things tend to do at that stage of life. Raise your hand if you ever got laid on a 4341. -- Will From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 10:29:04 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 16:29:04 -0000 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00c201d02e84$e185fdc0$a491f940$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William > Donzelli > Sent: 12 January 2015 16:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 > > > Automobiles were used by individuals for four generations, the models > > are built to appeal to different personalities and social strata. > > A significant number of people in three of those four generations > > fixed their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked. > > Almost everyone can relate to autos. In many countries, learning to drive > happens during the late teenage / early twenties, and tends to leave an > indelible mark on people, as things tend to do at that stage of life. > > Raise your hand if you ever got laid on a 4341. We did have a female operator at one place I worked who was rather "man hungry" but she never fancied me.... ... but that was a Honeywell DPS300.... > > -- > Will Dave G4UGM From js at cimmeri.com Mon Jan 12 10:35:21 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 11:35:21 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54B3F7C9.3010906@cimmeri.com> On 1/12/2015 11:21 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Automobiles were used by individuals for four generations, the models are >> built to appeal to different personalities and social strata. >> A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed >> their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked. > Almost everyone can relate to autos. In many countries, learning to > drive happens during the late teenage / early twenties, and tends to > leave an indelible mark on people, as things tend to do at that stage > of life. > > Raise your hand if you ever got laid on a 4341. > > -- > Will > Hahaha! I guess I was just hoping that the astonishing amount of genius and human achievement that went into these computers might push them towards more equal *status* with vintage autos. Of course, that would require a utopian outlook. Cars, despite their ubiquity, are relatively crude machines. - J. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 10:36:00 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 11:36:00 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > What I find bothersome is that the techniques for doing so isn't > easy to learn. There are only a few with Tonys skill level and > even fewer who cares about old electronics and yet fewer who > document their knowledge, tools and tricks. Isn't that the point of this list and the Vintage Computer Forum? -- Will From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Jan 12 10:45:21 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 16:45:21 +0000 Subject: Value of classics: (was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000) In-Reply-To: <20150111181655.C25213@shell.lmi.net> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> <20150111181655.C25213@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: All, On Jan 11, 2015, at 8:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Most obsolete cars and computers end up kept for nostalgia, or as > ornaments and toys. > Few, other than ARDs, use the really old ones for their daily driving. Drove my ?77 Datsun B210 to work today, and drove the ?68 Plymouth Sport Suburban (like a Fury III wagon) to pick up my daughter at orchestra practice yesterday. Those are actually my daily drivers. But, they are not orders of magnitude slower than the other cars on the road; they blend in nicely with traffic, have very similar brake and turn signals, etc.; that may be a differentiating factor from my ?classic? computing hardware, as Fred correctly points out. They are indeed less reliable, but not by any means orders of magnitude less reliable. On the subject of broadcasting offers; from a point of view of any individual collector, price is driven up and availability down, and I understand this is seen as a bad thing. From the point of view of the aritfact itself, and of maintaining it into the future, getting it into the hands of the person willing to pay the most for it seems to me to be a good thing. Any item for which someone has paid $1000 is less likely to be thrown out by estate managers than the same item if it cost only $100 or ?free for pickup?. So although I?ve personally missed out on some really nice systems that I was interested in because they were more widely publicized, I?m willing to grin and bear the loss, thinking that the systems found a home that?ll take even better care of them than I would have. From scaron at umich.edu Mon Jan 12 10:54:35 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 11:54:35 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <54B3F7C9.3010906@cimmeri.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> <54B3F7C9.3010906@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: I think it can... I mean, am I the only one where playing with these old machines, kept me good and busy, mentally occupied when I /wasn't/ getting laid all those years as an awkward, scruffy kid? LOL. For some subset of people... tech workers... EE/CS types ... I think an old computer can have similar status, as a sentimental object... Not to mention, the /great career/ and /success/ that resulted from playing with these old things when I was a kid... I don't want to be overly crude... but... I will say it worked for me... ;) I will always have some nostalgia for those bits of technology that really sparked the passion in me, got me where I am today. Others must feel similarly, no? Best, Sean On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 11:35 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 1/12/2015 11:21 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Automobiles were used by individuals for four generations, the models are >>> built to appeal to different personalities and social strata. >>> A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed >>> their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked. >>> >> Almost everyone can relate to autos. In many countries, learning to >> drive happens during the late teenage / early twenties, and tends to >> leave an indelible mark on people, as things tend to do at that stage >> of life. >> >> Raise your hand if you ever got laid on a 4341. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> > Hahaha! > > I guess I was just hoping that the astonishing amount of genius and human > achievement that went into these computers might push them towards more > equal *status* with vintage autos. Of course, that would require a > utopian outlook. > > Cars, despite their ubiquity, are relatively crude machines. > > - J. > From vrs at msn.com Mon Jan 12 11:19:02 2015 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 09:19:02 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Doug Ingraham: Monday, January 12, 2015 8:10 AM > What is the source of the greatest latency in the interrupt system on a > PDP-8. One answer might be "the skip chain". Since interrupts weren't vectored, it was necessary to query each device in priority order to see if it was currently requesting interrupt service. Another might be "disk I/O". Since most operating systems' device drivers ran with interrupts masked, this meant that when the buffer filled and had to be written, significant real time (milliseconds to seconds, depending on the device) could be involved. The alternative (interrupt driven mass storage) meant replicating significant O/S code, and meant you had to write your own drivers to change storage devices. Vince From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 12:10:50 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 19:10:50 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54B40E2A.4090600@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-12 17:10, Doug Ingraham wrote: > This weeks question comes from Warren Stearns. It is a little obscure and > specific to the PDP-8 family of computers. > > What is the source of the greatest latency in the interrupt system on a > PDP-8. > > I have three answers, two of the answers depends on the options fitted to > an 8. What do you mean by interrupt latency here? The latency before an interrupt is actually propagated to the CPU? The latency before the interrupt is reacted upon by the CPU (assuming interrupt are ON I hope...). The latency internal to a controller before it even might raise the interrupt request? > Why would this have been an important question? Interrupt latency would be > extremely important in the field of data collection which was one of the > principal early uses of these machines. My particular 8 was used for > exactly this purpose in the Summer when it was hauled to a radar site and > collected weather research data for the Institute of Atmospheric Sciences. > I believe it was used for this from 1969 through 1972. I have several > hundred DECTapes with some of this data. The surprising thing is we don't > see any problems reading DECTapes that haven't been out of their box since > the early 70's. Why are you surprised? DECtapes have excellent reliablilty. You can punch holes in them and they will still work. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 12:17:32 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 19:17:32 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-12 18:19, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Doug Ingraham: Monday, January 12, 2015 8:10 AM >> What is the source of the greatest latency in the interrupt system on a >> PDP-8. > > One answer might be "the skip chain". Since interrupts weren't > vectored, it was necessary to query each device in priority order to see > if it was currently requesting interrupt service. Ah. Good point. I forget to include this in the possible interpretations of interrupt latency. > Another might be "disk I/O". Since most operating systems' device > drivers ran with interrupts masked, this meant that when the buffer > filled and had to be written, significant real time (milliseconds to > seconds, depending on the device) could be involved. The alternative > (interrupt driven mass storage) meant replicating significant O/S code, > and meant you had to write your own drivers to change storage devices. Uh? Disk I/O is normally DMA. It is not performed while you are in the device driver. The device generates an interrupt when it finishes, at which point you get back into the device driver. While the transfer is going on, you have interrupts enabled, and are running out in "user space" normally. Interrupt driven mass storage was (and is) pretty uncommon, because it requires so much CPU. But of course, for those who do, you transfer only at interrupt time, so you are not bound by the disk speed anyway. And of course, you also have things like OS/8, which runs with interrupts off at all times, to which the answer to the original question would be "OS/8". :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 12:21:55 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 19:21:55 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54B410C3.6030606@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-12 19:17, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-01-12 18:19, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> From: Doug Ingraham: Monday, January 12, 2015 8:10 AM >>> What is the source of the greatest latency in the interrupt system on a >>> PDP-8. >> >> One answer might be "the skip chain". Since interrupts weren't >> vectored, it was necessary to query each device in priority order to see >> if it was currently requesting interrupt service. > > Ah. Good point. I forget to include this in the possible interpretations > of interrupt latency. Actually. This needs some correction. The interrupt skip chain itself is not the latency. The skip chain is just some extra time required to actually jump to the correct interrupt handler. The interrupts are (normally) off until the interrupt handler finishes. The skip chain is just a smaller part of that whole thing. And I assumed that the question was about when interrupts were enabled, which they are not at the point when the skip chain executes. Consider the skip chain just a part of the interrupt handler. It is no different from an external point of view. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From vrs at msn.com Mon Jan 12 12:34:41 2015 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 10:34:41 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> Message-ID: From: Johnny Billquist: Monday, January 12, 2015 10:17 AM > Interrupt driven mass storage was (and is) pretty uncommon, because it > requires so much CPU. But of course, for those who do, you transfer only > at interrupt time, so you are not bound by the disk speed anyway. For other systems maybe, but for the PDP-8, not so much. > And of course, you also have things like OS/8, which runs with > interrupts off at all times, to which the answer to the original > question would be "OS/8". :-) Exactly :-) Vince From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 12:42:54 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 19:42:54 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54B415AE.7030408@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-12 19:34, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Johnny Billquist: Monday, January 12, 2015 10:17 AM >> Interrupt driven mass storage was (and is) pretty uncommon, because it >> requires so much CPU. But of course, for those who do, you transfer >> only at interrupt time, so you are not bound by the disk speed anyway. > > For other systems maybe, but for the PDP-8, not so much. The one I can recall off my head (unless my brain is fooling me) is the RX8. And it's definitely true for that one. If you are thinking of the TD8E then you need to remember that this controller is not even interrupt driven. It is a purely polled controller. And that one is truly horrible, and difficult to even use in an interrupt driven system. It can be sortof made to work with the help of timers, calculations, and temporarily turning off interrupt when you want to do the actual transfers, as it cannot tolerate anything else interrupting the code while a transfer is in progress. >> And of course, you also have things like OS/8, which runs with >> interrupts off at all times, to which the answer to the original >> question would be "OS/8". :-) > > Exactly :-) But anything running constantly with the interrupts off should not be in the "competition". As it's hardly called latency when you just ignore the signal. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From vrs at msn.com Mon Jan 12 12:43:29 2015 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 10:43:29 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: <54B410C3.6030606@update.uu.se> References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <54B410C3.6030606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: From: Johnny Billquist: Monday, January 12, 2015 10:21 AM > On 2015-01-12 19:17, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-01-12 18:19, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >>> One answer might be "the skip chain". Since interrupts weren't >>> vectored, it was necessary to query each device in priority order to see >>> if it was currently requesting interrupt service. >> >> Ah. Good point. I forget to include this in the possible interpretations >> of interrupt latency. > > Actually. This needs some correction. The interrupt skip chain itself is > not the latency. The skip chain is just some extra time required to > actually jump to the correct interrupt handler. The interrupts are > (normally) off until the interrupt handler finishes. They'd better be off until the last device is in service, or you'll get re-entry problems in the interrupt service routine. In practice, I've never seen interrupts on during a PDP-8 service routine. > The skip chain is just a smaller part of that whole thing. OK, but it is a significant overhead compared to later (vectored) interrupt system designs, and means it takes longer to get to where you're going. The un-vectored design also means more problems with re-entry, since all the interrupts call the same routine. And the JMS instruction design makes it a bear to write re-entrant code on a PDP-8. I think it comes back to the "what do we mean by latency" question. Vince From vrs at msn.com Mon Jan 12 12:48:50 2015 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 10:48:50 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: <54B415AE.7030408@update.uu.se> References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <54B415AE.7030408@update.uu.se> Message-ID: From: Johnny Billquist: Monday, January 12, 2015 10:42 AM >>> And of course, you also have things like OS/8, which runs with >>> interrupts off at all times, to which the answer to the original >>> question would be "OS/8". :-) >> >> Exactly :-) > > But anything running constantly with the interrupts off should not be in > the "competition". As it's hardly called latency when you just ignore > the signal. What I've seen is systems that collect data with interrupts on, but do have to turn interrupts off when calling OS/8 services, or OS/8 will crash. AFAIK, all OS/8 services and drivers require this, even things like the RK05 driver. Vince From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 12:55:12 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 19:55:12 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <54B410C3.6030606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54B41890.9060009@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-12 19:43, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Johnny Billquist: Monday, January 12, 2015 10:21 AM >> On 2015-01-12 19:17, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> On 2015-01-12 18:19, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >>>> One answer might be "the skip chain". Since interrupts weren't >>>> vectored, it was necessary to query each device in priority order to >>>> see >>>> if it was currently requesting interrupt service. >>> >>> Ah. Good point. I forget to include this in the possible interpretations >>> of interrupt latency. >> >> Actually. This needs some correction. The interrupt skip chain itself >> is not the latency. The skip chain is just some extra time required to >> actually jump to the correct interrupt handler. The interrupts are >> (normally) off until the interrupt handler finishes. > > They'd better be off until the last device is in service, or you'll get > re-entry problems in the interrupt service routine. In practice, I've > never seen interrupts on during a PDP-8 service routine. A more correct statement would be that if you enable interrupts in your interrupt handler you must first save all the context of the current interrupt, so you can restore it before returning from the current interrupt. It's not really that hard. Essentially you must store the contents of address 0, and probably also make sure you do not get a second interrupt from the same device, since I doubt you want to write a reentrant interrupt handler. (But that is normally the case anyway, since most devices need some kind of operation to enable a new interrupt to be generated.) But if another device generates an interrupt, you'll be fine, unless you have some other pieces of code both interrupt handlers would share, in which case there are probably more things to deal with. (Essentially, unless you take special care, code isn't reentrant on a PDP8, but I assume you know this. It's just that unless you share code between interrupt handlers, the only thing needed to be stashed away before enabling interrupts is the return address.) >> The skip chain is just a smaller part of that whole thing. > > OK, but it is a significant overhead compared to later (vectored) > interrupt system designs, and means it takes longer to get to where > you're going. True. But the skip chain is still for most cases just a minor part of the whole execution time of an interrupt handler. > The un-vectored design also means more problems with re-entry, since all > the interrupts call the same routine. And the JMS instruction design > makes it a bear to write re-entrant code on a PDP-8. Yes. But it don't have anything to do with the vectored or not interrupts. In fact, there were some devices who generated vectored interrupts on the PDP-8. The KL8A comes to mind. It's all about the fact that the return address for interrupts is always stored in address 0. Makes no difference how you eventually locate the actual interrupt handler. > I think it comes back to the "what do we mean by latency" question. Yeah. That one I'm still not clear on. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 12:57:32 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 19:57:32 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <54B415AE.7030408@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54B4191C.6070409@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-12 19:48, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Johnny Billquist: Monday, January 12, 2015 10:42 AM >>>> And of course, you also have things like OS/8, which runs with >>>> interrupts off at all times, to which the answer to the original >>>> question would be "OS/8". :-) >>> >>> Exactly :-) >> >> But anything running constantly with the interrupts off should not be >> in the "competition". As it's hardly called latency when you just >> ignore the signal. > > What I've seen is systems that collect data with interrupts on, but do > have to turn interrupts off when calling OS/8 services, or OS/8 will crash. > > AFAIK, all OS/8 services and drivers require this, even things like the > RK05 driver. Right. But it's not that things will crash in OS/8, but you will get interrupts as a result of OS/8 operations, which you most probably do not want, and might not even know how to deal with. And stealing the completion of an operation through an interrupt might mean OS/8 never notice that an operation completes. So you will get OS/8 hangs, and your interrupt system will get interrupts you never expected. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 12 13:33:09 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 19:33:09 +0000 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <004401d02e67$bb4f7400$31ee5c00$@xs4all.nl> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE>, <004401d02e67$bb4f7400$31ee5c00$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > > He did wrote a lot of articles about fixing old HP equipment. > But you have to be a member of the HPCC to read them. > So don't hesitate and become a member.. Actually, the series on the HP98x0 calculators and that on the HP9866A printer are available (reformatted, and in one 'manual') from the Australian HP museum site. Anyone can read them. Not that I want to put people off joining HPCC of course :-) -tony From vrs at msn.com Mon Jan 12 13:43:30 2015 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 11:43:30 -0800 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: <54B41890.9060009@update.uu.se> References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <54B410C3.6030606@update.uu.se> <54B41890.9060009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: From: Johnny Billquist: Monday, January 12, 2015 10:55 AM > A more correct statement would be that if you enable interrupts in your > interrupt handler you must first save all the context of the current > interrupt, so you can restore it before returning from the current > interrupt. > It's not really that hard. Essentially you must store the contents of > address 0, and probably also make sure you do not get a second interrupt > from the same device, since I doubt you want to write a reentrant > interrupt handler. (But that is normally the case anyway, since most > devices need some kind of operation to enable a new interrupt to be > generated.) You've never tried to do it on a PDP-8, I expect. Since there's no stack, and static storage won't be reentrant, it's a nightmare. At a minimum, you'd need a routine to emulate "push"/"pop" and "call" type operations, and you'll have to remember to have interrupts off when you call them, unless you want to use MQ to store the return address or something. (Even then the stack routines will need to disable interrupts while they do their thing). Another way to view it is that interrupts effectively introduce a kind of multi-threading, with the attendant complexity. That's really incompatible with an "all static storage" machine like the PDP-8, as everyone's always stomping your variables (even temporaries and return addresses). Vince From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 13:53:24 2015 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 20:53:24 +0100 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <54B42634.1000800@update.uu.se> On 01/12/2015 05:36 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> What I find bothersome is that the techniques for doing so isn't >> easy to learn. There are only a few with Tonys skill level and >> even fewer who cares about old electronics and yet fewer who >> document their knowledge, tools and tricks. > Isn't that the point of this list and the Vintage Computer Forum? > Certainly, and the mailing list and it's archives is invaluable. But as an introduction to the subject? not so much. It would be nice to hand someone a book which at least cursory explains capacitor reforming, how to read and write ROM's, how to repair corroded PCB's or what to do if the copper has lifted from the board. /P From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 12 13:53:41 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 19:53:41 +0000 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org>,<20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > Not popular or widespread perhaps, but globally there are quite > a number of people who wouldn't mind sinking their teeth in > restoring a rare mainframe. Yes. me for one (I've never worked on a mainframe...) > > What I find bothersome is that the techniques for doing so isn't > easy to learn. There are only a few with Tonys skill level and Actually, a lot of things are not easy to learn. I fact I struggle to think of anything worthwhile that is. That said, nobody taught me how to understand and repair computers. I just started reading schematics and they started to make sense. What you need is a good understanding of digital electronics (and there are very few good books on this, amazingly) a good understanding of analogue electronics (ditto), and really, then just to spend many hours fiddling with classic computers, looking at things with the 'scope and logic analyser, and thinking about what you are doing. > even fewer who cares about old electronics and yet fewer who > document their knowledge, tools and tricks. I do try. > > From time to time I see young people (18 or so) enter the > classic compuer hobby) but they have an uphill battle getting > into the restoration part. Hang on.. When I started, there was no internet. There were no mailing lists like this one. There were no data sheets and service manuals available to download. I would have a schematic if I was lucky (otherwise I would have to trace it out), I would hopefully be able to get data sheets or at least pinouts of the main ICs. To be fair it is a _lot_ easier now. The main skill I see lacking now is the ability to reason logically. This has nothing to do with classic computer restoration per se, but it is obviously essential here. But I see it, in all areas, all the time. > > There seems to be lots and lots of books for restoring old cars > and houses. Where are those books for computers? > > Tony, when will you write one? Hang on. I post here. I write repair articles for HPCC. Every year I give a talk at HPCC on the internals of some old HP device (last time it was the HP11305 disk controller for the HP9830, something that it is not easy to find technical info on [1]). What more do you want? (Said with tongue firmly in cheek). [1] If you tell me you can download the schematics, well, where did they come from... More seriously, I have written repair information for specific machines, but it tends to assume you already know how a computer works, and need to know how _that_ computer works. In other words I'll describe the microcode sequencer of the 98x0 processor, but will assume you know what microcode is and how it is used in a processor control system I have often thought about writing a more general 'book' on classic computer repair but it either ends up far too trivial (explaining gates and flipflops and linear PSUs,) or very machine-specific. The problem is that in the time period we are talking about there was almost nothing that every machine did the same way. Even something as simple as a keyboard button could be a mechanical contact, or a change in capacitance (then think of both Keytronics and the IBM PC keyboard), or inductive coupling (GE/ICL Termiprinter) or inductive damping (HP9810/HP9820) or a magnetically saturated core (HP9845). Or even mechanical encoding to ASCII operating switch contacts (Teletype Model 33). To cover every way that, say, a processor was designed would take many books, and even then there would be something I'd missed out. -tony From js at cimmeri.com Mon Jan 12 13:59:04 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 14:59:04 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B42634.1000800@update.uu.se> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> <54B42634.1000800@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54B42788.3060108@cimmeri.com> On 1/12/2015 2:53 PM, Pontus wrote: > On 01/12/2015 05:36 PM, William > Donzelli wrote: >>> What I find bothersome is that the >>> techniques for doing so isn't >>> easy to learn. There are only a few >>> with Tonys skill level and >>> even fewer who cares about old >>> electronics and yet fewer who >>> document their knowledge, tools and >>> tricks. >> Isn't that the point of this list and >> the Vintage Computer Forum? >> > > Certainly, and the mailing list and > it's archives is invaluable. But as an > introduction to the subject? not so much. > > It would be nice to hand someone a > book which at least cursory explains > capacitor reforming, how to read and > write ROM's, how to repair corroded > PCB's or what to do if the copper has > lifted from the board. It'd be a massive undertaking, simply because there's so many different streams of arcane knowledge that one brings to bear on such tasks. Everyone will be a bit different, but for myself, I'm bringing a lifetime of experience of working with my hands to bear on a restoration type project... whether it's something my dad showed me when I was 12, to something I figured out later, to something I read about on the internet. Being a "restorer" is actually being a person who has mastered a craft, and who is never done learning that craft. - J. From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 14:21:13 2015 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 21:21:13 +0100 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org>, <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <54B42CB9.8050009@update.uu.se> On 01/12/2015 08:53 PM, tony duell wrote: > Actually, a lot of things are not easy to learn. I fact I struggle to think > of anything worthwhile that is. Well, perhaps my choice of word wasn't the best. I certainly didn't mean to say that the subject matter should be made "easy". Computer restoration is challenging and difficult, I acknowledge that. What I wanted was to make the subject more approachable. > Hang on. I post here. I write repair articles for HPCC. Every year I give > a talk at HPCC on the internals of some old HP device (last time it > was the HP11305 disk controller for the HP9830, something that it is > not easy to find technical info on [1]). What more do you want? > (Said with tongue firmly in cheek). :) And I try to read (and understand) most of what you write, even if it's not directly related to what I collect. What is this HPCC that you > I have often thought about writing a more general 'book' on classic computer > repair but it either ends up far too trivial (explaining gates and flipflops and > linear PSUs,) or very machine-specific. When I think more about it. I think I want a book that guides me through restoration of computers from digital between 1970 and 1980, since that is my main interest. I realize that a book about restoring micros from 1980 and onwards would be a very different book. Still, I don't think either of those books exist. Regards, Pontus. From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 14:38:38 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 21:38:38 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <54B410C3.6030606@update.uu.se> <54B41890.9060009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54B430CE.4040301@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-12 20:43, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Johnny Billquist: Monday, January 12, 2015 10:55 AM >> A more correct statement would be that if you enable interrupts in >> your interrupt handler you must first save all the context of the >> current interrupt, so you can restore it before returning from the >> current interrupt. >> It's not really that hard. Essentially you must store the contents of >> address 0, and probably also make sure you do not get a second >> interrupt from the same device, since I doubt you want to write a >> reentrant interrupt handler. (But that is normally the case anyway, >> since most devices need some kind of operation to enable a new >> interrupt to be generated.) > > You've never tried to do it on a PDP-8, I expect. Since there's no > stack, and static storage won't be reentrant, it's a nightmare. At a > minimum, you'd need a routine to emulate "push"/"pop" and "call" type > operations, and you'll have to remember to have interrupts off when you > call them, unless you want to use MQ to store the return address or > something. (Even then the stack routines will need to disable interrupts > while they do their thing). Of course I've done it. I suspect there is not much I have not done on a PDP-8. I've written programs on PDP-8 systems for over 30 years by now... No, you do not need a push/pop to have interrupts enabled while in an interrupt handler on a PDP-8. As long as you know the same interrupt will not trigger, all you need to do is store the return address from 0 somewhere else before ION, and then write it back to 0 after IOFF. Like I said, with the provisions that you do not reuse the same functions from different interrupt handlers, and you know that the same device don't interrupt again. > Another way to view it is that interrupts effectively introduce a kind > of multi-threading, with the attendant complexity. That's really > incompatible with an "all static storage" machine like the PDP-8, as > everyone's always stomping your variables (even temporaries > and return addresses). Yes. And some of the same issues are true no matter what architecture. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 12 15:03:16 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 21:03:16 -0000 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B42CB9.8050009@update.uu.se> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org>, <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> <54B42CB9.8050009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <00d901d02eab$2fbf83f0$8f3e8bd0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus > Sent: 12 January 2015 20:21 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] > > On 01/12/2015 08:53 PM, tony duell wrote: > > Actually, a lot of things are not easy to learn. I fact I struggle to > > think of anything worthwhile that is. > > Well, perhaps my choice of word wasn't the best. I certainly didn't mean to say > that the subject matter should be made "easy". Computer restoration is > challenging and difficult, I acknowledge that. What I wanted was to make the > subject more approachable. > > > Hang on. I post here. I write repair articles for HPCC. Every year I > > give a talk at HPCC on the internals of some old HP device (last time > > it was the HP11305 disk controller for the HP9830, something that it > > is not easy to find technical info on [1]). What more do you want? > > (Said with tongue firmly in cheek). > > :) And I try to read (and understand) most of what you write, even if it's not > directly related to what I collect. What is this HPCC that you > > > I have often thought about writing a more general 'book' on classic > > computer repair but it either ends up far too trivial (explaining > > gates and flipflops and linear PSUs,) or very machine-specific. > > When I think more about it. I think I want a book that guides me through > restoration of computers from digital between 1970 and 1980, since that is my > main interest. I realize that a book about restoring micros from > 1980 and onwards would be a very different book. > > Still, I don't think either of those books exist. > > Regards, > Pontus. I know we are mostly old curmudgeons around here (including me!), and I very much like my printed books, but perhaps technology could come to the rescue here. It wouldn't be hard to create a wiki where this kind of information is collected, rather than distributed all over a mailing list. And, with many hands, the work is much lighter. Perhaps a bit idealistic, but the idea *could* fly if there was enough critical mass. I can imagine sections on general techniques and then on particular brands and machines, and there wouldn't need to be a restriction on subject matter in terms of periods in history or other dimensions, just whatever people are able to contribute. I can also imagine edit wars if there is disagreement about something (eg capacitor reforming), but we could try to be civilised and present the differing opinions in that case. Isn't there someone on the list who has been offering lots of server capacity? It could be hosted there. Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 12 15:29:32 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 21:29:32 +0000 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B42CB9.8050009@update.uu.se> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org>, <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> , <54B42CB9.8050009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > > Well, perhaps my choice of word wasn't the best. I certainly didn't mean > to say that the subject matter should be made "easy". Computer > restoration is challenging and difficult, I acknowledge that. What I > wanted was to make the subject more approachable. The problem is that if you oversimplify things you can actually make them harder to understand. I never understood telephone exchanges until I finally found a book that explained the operation of an actual small exchange at the relay level, with complete schematics. It then all made a lot of sense. > :) And I try to read (and understand) most of what you write, even if > it's not directly related to what I collect. What is this HPCC that you HPCC is the 'Handheld and Portable Computer Club' (http://www.hpcc.org/) It is not a coincidence that 'Handheld and Portable' starts with the same letters as 'Hewlett Packard' :-). It started out as a club for users of the HP41, then covered the 71B, RPL machines, and so on. It has now diversified somewhat and it would be fair to describe it as a bunch of eccentrics that produces a little booklet 4 time a year (we hope!) with articles mostly relating to HP calculators. Some of the members meet once a month in London and discuss just about anything and everything. At the last meeting I found myself chatting about repairing the Model 33 ASR Teletype, programming the TRS80 Model 4, a detail of the memory control system of the HP9830, a detail of a certain classic car carburettor, and a lot more besides... > When I think more about it. I think I want a book that guides me through > restoration of computers from digital between 1970 and 1980, since that In other words you want a book that covers (at least) PDP8s, PDP10s, PDP11s, VAXen and all their peripherals. Given that DEC wrote technical and maintence manuals for those machines, and the total thickness of all such manuals would be 10s of feet at least, I don't think it's going to get covered in detail in one book. -tony From vrs at msn.com Mon Jan 12 15:34:40 2015 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 13:34:40 -0800 Subject: Reentrant PDP-8 code (was Re: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112)) In-Reply-To: <54B430CE.4040301@update.uu.se> References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <54B410C3.6030606@update.uu.se> <54B41890.9060009@update.uu.se> <54B430CE.4040301@update.uu.se> Message-ID: From: Johnny Billquist: Monday, January 12, 2015 12:38 PM > Of course I've done it. I suspect there is not much I have not done on a > PDP-8. I've written programs on PDP-8 systems for over 30 years by now... > No, you do not need a push/pop to have interrupts enabled while in an > interrupt handler on a PDP-8. As long as you know the same interrupt > will not trigger, all you need to do is store the return address from 0 > somewhere else before ION, and then write it back to 0 after IOFF. Well, and the AC and flags and any other context that the ISR needs. Essentially, a "one deep stack" for the context, which is much easier to implement. > Like I said, with the provisions that you do not reuse the same > functions from different interrupt handlers, and you know that the same > device don't interrupt again. Yep. Generally, you can't share any storage between the various routines while the interrupts are on, and you have to also prevent re-entry of the routines you are already in. Vince From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 15:38:15 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 22:38:15 +0100 Subject: Reentrant PDP-8 code (was Re: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112)) In-Reply-To: References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <54B410C3.6030606@update.uu.se> <54B41890.9060009@update.uu.se> <54B430CE.4040301@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54B43EC7.4080103@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-12 22:34, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Johnny Billquist: Monday, January 12, 2015 12:38 PM >> Of course I've done it. I suspect there is not much I have not done on >> a PDP-8. I've written programs on PDP-8 systems for over 30 years by >> now... >> No, you do not need a push/pop to have interrupts enabled while in an >> interrupt handler on a PDP-8. As long as you know the same interrupt >> will not trigger, all you need to do is store the return address from >> 0 somewhere else before ION, and then write it back to 0 after IOFF. > > Well, and the AC and flags and any other context that the ISR needs. > Essentially, a "one deep stack" for the context, which is much easier > to implement. Every interrupt, even if not nested, needs to save the AC, link, and a bunch of other stuff. But yes, if you centralize that part, then it also needs to be stashed away before you allow another interrupt. It's two more words. >> Like I said, with the provisions that you do not reuse the same >> functions from different interrupt handlers, and you know that the >> same device don't interrupt again. > > Yep. Generally, you can't share any storage between the various > routines while the interrupts are on, and you have to also prevent > re-entry of the routines you are already in. Yep. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From js at cimmeri.com Mon Jan 12 15:53:54 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 16:53:54 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <00d901d02eab$2fbf83f0$8f3e8bd0$@ntlworld.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org>, <20150112122911.GA29813@Update.UU.SE> <54B42CB9.8050009@update.uu.se> <00d901d02eab$2fbf83f0$8f3e8bd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54B44272.2050902@cimmeri.com> On 1/12/2015 4:03 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I know we are mostly old curmudgeons around here (including me!), and > I very much like my printed books, but perhaps technology could come > to the rescue here. It wouldn't be hard to create a wiki where this > kind of information is collected, rather than distributed all over a > mailing list. And, with many hands, the work is much lighter. Perhaps > a bit idealistic, but the idea *could* fly if there was enough > critical mass. I can imagine sections on general techniques and then > on particular brands and machines, and there wouldn't need to be a > restriction on subject matter in terms of periods in history or other > dimensions, just whatever people are able to contribute. I can also > imagine edit wars if there is disagreement about something (eg > capacitor reforming), but we could try to be civilised and present the > differing opinions in that case. Isn't there someone on the list who > has been offering lots of server capacity? It could be hosted there. > Regards Rob It's not just information. It's more craft, skill, handmanship. Those are kinds of things are taught by apprenticeship.. not by book reading. The right information, in the right hands, produces restoration. - J. From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Mon Jan 12 17:57:41 2015 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 16:57:41 -0700 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: <54B40E2A.4090600@update.uu.se> References: <54B40E2A.4090600@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > What do you mean by interrupt latency here? > The latency before an interrupt is actually propagated to the CPU? The > latency before the interrupt is reacted upon by the CPU (assuming interrupt > are ON I hope...). The latency internal to a controller before it even > might raise the interrupt request? By latency I mean the time between when the interrupt source signals the presence of an interrupt and when the JMS Z 0 to field 0 takes place. Doug From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 18:20:13 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 01:20:13 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: References: <54B40E2A.4090600@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54B464BD.4030806@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-13 00:57, Doug Ingraham wrote: > On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> What do you mean by interrupt latency here? >> The latency before an interrupt is actually propagated to the CPU? The >> latency before the interrupt is reacted upon by the CPU (assuming interrupt >> are ON I hope...). The latency internal to a controller before it even >> might raise the interrupt request? > > > By latency I mean the time between when the interrupt source signals the > presence of an interrupt and when the JMS Z 0 to field 0 takes place. Ok. Assuming interrupts are on. The longest time would be if we have a data break going on at the same time, since that is done before the interrupt signal is sampled. And preferrably an instruction that takes a long time. Longest would (I think) be the EAE mode B DIV instruction. Without the EAE, an indirect memory reference would be the longest instruction I can think of. On top of that, you would also have one data break cycle. However, I wonder if the 3 cycle data break (what was it actually called - my memory is blank right now) actually do 3 DMAs during one instruction cycle. But that is possible, which would then definitely add a bunch of time. What that adds up to in time depends on the CPU... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Jan 12 20:19:58 2015 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 21:19:58 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201501130220.t0D2K0UU007253@rickmurphy.net> At 01:17 PM 1/12/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >And of course, you also have things like OS/8, which runs with >interrupts off at all times, to which the answer to the original >question would be "OS/8". :-) The OS/8 FORTRAN runtime (FRTS) runs with interrupts enabled. OS/8 in general doesn't care if interrupts are on, which is how OS/78 (or was it OS/278?) symbionts worked. So, you can't blame OS/8 for getting into the way. There's nothing typically in OS/8 that requires interrupts to be disabled, but it's true that most of OS/8 doesn't do anything to handle interrrupts. Interrupt latency? Either you're looking for the length of the "skip chain", or interrupt blockers like CIF instructions. -Rick From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 20:36:11 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 03:36:11 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: <201501130220.t0D2K0UU007253@rickmurphy.net> References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <201501130220.t0D2K0UU007253@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <54B4849B.7030901@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-13 03:19, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 01:17 PM 1/12/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> And of course, you also have things like OS/8, which runs with >> interrupts off at all times, to which the answer to the original >> question would be "OS/8". :-) > > The OS/8 FORTRAN runtime (FRTS) runs with interrupts enabled. OS/8 in > general doesn't care if interrupts are on, which is how OS/78 (or was it > OS/278?) symbionts worked. So, you can't blame OS/8 for getting into the > way. There's nothing typically in OS/8 that requires interrupts to be > disabled, but it's true that most of OS/8 doesn't do anything to handle > interrrupts. Well, not entirely true. Yes, FRTS runs with interrupts enabled. But it disables them before jumping into OS/8, unless I remember wrong. It's been a very long time since I mucked around inside FRTS... But the problem is that if you have interrupt enabled, and OS/8 do some I/O, you will get the interrupt. Meanwhile the OS/8 device driver is sitting in a polling loop waiting for the interface to indicate it is finished. The problem is that whenever it is finished, you get the interrupt. The only way to dismiss the interrupt is to remove the finish flag, which means the OS/8 device driver will never see it set. And you "hang". The other potential problem being that you might get interrupts from whatever OS/8 is playing around with. Some of which you might not actually be prepared to handle. Although this is possibly less of a point, since there is a risk those devices might generate an interrupt as soon as you enable interrupts anyway. Depends on the device. > Interrupt latency? Either you're looking for the length of the "skip > chain", or interrupt blockers like CIF instructions. Continue reading the thread. Seems he's looking for the hardware response to the raising of the interrupt pin on the CPU, and I assume under the condition that interrupts are enabled. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 20:37:48 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 03:37:48 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: <201501130220.t0D2K0UU007253@rickmurphy.net> References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <201501130220.t0D2K0UU007253@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <54B484FC.1070406@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-13 03:19, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 01:17 PM 1/12/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> And of course, you also have things like OS/8, which runs with >> interrupts off at all times, to which the answer to the original >> question would be "OS/8". :-) > > The OS/8 FORTRAN runtime (FRTS) runs with interrupts enabled. OS/8 in > general doesn't care if interrupts are on, which is how OS/78 (or was it > OS/278?) symbionts worked. So, you can't blame OS/8 for getting into the > way. There's nothing typically in OS/8 that requires interrupts to be > disabled, but it's true that most of OS/8 doesn't do anything to handle > interrrupts. By the way. Thanks for reminding me about the OS/8 printer background job. I should go back and recheck how that actually did it, as a simple interrupt enabled setup will have problems, which I mentioned. I think it might have been OS/278 only, which also means there might be slushware required... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jan 12 20:50:00 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 21:50:00 -0500 Subject: Some Bugs in RT-11 Message-ID: <54B487D8.70506@compsys.to> While this post is specifically for Tim Shoppa (as the only person that I can think of who can answer), if anyone else has the background, please reply. I believe that I have found a rather inconvenient bug in SDHX.SYS from version Y01.16 (from V05.06 of RT-11) that can cause RT-11 to crash. If I am not mistaken, the same bug is also present in the previous version V01.00 of SDHX.SYS from V05.05 of RT-11. Unfortunately, the bug can cause RT-11 to crash There also seems to be another bug which results in the extended memory status being displayed incorrectly, but otherwise does not cause an actual problem. I realize that RT-11 is rarely used these days and that SDHX.SYS is used even less frequently, but I suggest that these errors really need to be fixed. I would appreciate any suggestions as to how to proceed. Jerome Fine From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Jan 12 21:20:21 2015 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 22:20:21 -0500 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: <54B4849B.7030901@update.uu.se> References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <201501130220.t0D2K0UU007253@rickmurphy.net> <54B4849B.7030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201501130320.t0D3KNDf010107@rickmurphy.net> At 09:36 PM 1/12/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >On 2015-01-13 03:19, Rick Murphy wrote: >>At 01:17 PM 1/12/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>And of course, you also have things like OS/8, which runs with >>>interrupts off at all times, to which the answer to the original >>>question would be "OS/8". :-) >> >>The OS/8 FORTRAN runtime (FRTS) runs with interrupts enabled. OS/8 in >>general doesn't care if interrupts are on, which is how OS/78 (or was it >>OS/278?) symbionts worked. So, you can't blame OS/8 for getting into the >>way. There's nothing typically in OS/8 that requires interrupts to be >>disabled, but it's true that most of OS/8 doesn't do anything to handle >>interrrupts. > >Well, not entirely true. Yes, FRTS runs with interrupts enabled. But >it disables them before jumping into OS/8, unless I remember wrong. Well, not entirely relevant. You recommended that I 'Read the thread' but I did. I'm responding to the misinformed statements that OS/8 always runs with interrupts disabled, which is false. FRTS basically requires that I/O drivers be set up before execution starts, so no OS/8 I/O handlers are called once the runtime gets running (assuming just FORTRAN source.) ADVENT does dynamic unit assignment, and wraps OS/8 USR calls to disable/enable interrupts. >It's been a very long time since I mucked around inside FRTS... It's been a few months or so for me :) And yes, OS/8 drivers can be called with interrupts enabled. >>Interrupt latency? Either you're looking for the length of the "skip >>chain", or interrupt blockers like CIF instructions. > >Continue reading the thread. Seems he's looking for the hardware >response to the raising of the interrupt pin on the CPU, and I assume >under the condition that interrupts are enabled. I've read the thread, which is why I brought up the CIF stall, since nobody else has mentioned it. Maybe that's not what's being asked here, but if you're asking what can cause latency with interrupts enabled once a device generates an interrupt, the fact that CIF instructions delay interrupts until the next JMP instruction seems to be what's being asked here. -Rick From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 12 22:09:14 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 05:09:14 +0100 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) In-Reply-To: <201501130320.t0D3KNDf010107@rickmurphy.net> References: <54B40FBC.1080309@update.uu.se> <201501130220.t0D2K0UU007253@rickmurphy.net> <54B4849B.7030901@update.uu.se> <201501130320.t0D3KNDf010107@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <54B49A6A.2010704@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-13 04:20, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 09:36 PM 1/12/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-01-13 03:19, Rick Murphy wrote: >>> At 01:17 PM 1/12/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> And of course, you also have things like OS/8, which runs with >>>> interrupts off at all times, to which the answer to the original >>>> question would be "OS/8". :-) >>> >>> The OS/8 FORTRAN runtime (FRTS) runs with interrupts enabled. OS/8 in >>> general doesn't care if interrupts are on, which is how OS/78 (or was it >>> OS/278?) symbionts worked. So, you can't blame OS/8 for getting into the >>> way. There's nothing typically in OS/8 that requires interrupts to be >>> disabled, but it's true that most of OS/8 doesn't do anything to handle >>> interrrupts. >> >> Well, not entirely true. Yes, FRTS runs with interrupts enabled. But >> it disables them before jumping into OS/8, unless I remember wrong. > > Well, not entirely relevant. You recommended that I 'Read the thread' > but I did. I'm responding to the misinformed statements that OS/8 always > runs with interrupts disabled, which is false. FRTS basically requires > that I/O drivers be set up before execution starts, so no OS/8 I/O > handlers are called once the runtime gets running (assuming just FORTRAN > source.) This becomes nit-picking. But since it can be fun, and maybe someone else might find it interesting... You could argue that once a program starts, it has full control of the machine, and can of course turn on and off interrupts as much as it wants to, even though it was started from OS/8. Of course OS/8 don't mind, since OS/8 is not even aware, or active, or involved. OS/8 only comes into the picture if you actually call OS/8. At which point the question becomes relevant. Otherwise you could regard OS/8 just as a boot loader. > ADVENT does dynamic unit assignment, and wraps OS/8 USR calls to > disable/enable interrupts. Right. So, one of the situations where OS/8 gets called, and then interrupts must be off. >> It's been a very long time since I mucked around inside FRTS... > > It's been a few months or so for me :) And yes, OS/8 drivers can be > called with interrupts enabled. Some... Try it with the TTY driver if you want some fun. :-) >>> Interrupt latency? Either you're looking for the length of the "skip >>> chain", or interrupt blockers like CIF instructions. >> >> Continue reading the thread. Seems he's looking for the hardware >> response to the raising of the interrupt pin on the CPU, and I assume >> under the condition that interrupts are enabled. > > I've read the thread, which is why I brought up the CIF stall, since > nobody else has mentioned it. > > Maybe that's not what's being asked here, but if you're asking what can > cause latency with interrupts enabled once a device generates an > interrupt, the fact that CIF instructions delay interrupts until the > next JMP instruction seems to be what's being asked here. La la.... Sorry. I got stuck on the skip chain, and didn't properly read your next idea. Of course! CIF can block an interrupt indefinitely! Nice one! I totally forgot that one. That is the best suggestion I've seen so far. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chuck.mcmanis at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 23:13:13 2015 From: chuck.mcmanis at gmail.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 21:13:13 -0800 Subject: Excess Solutions BBQ Saturday In-Reply-To: <54B064CF.9020504@bitsavers.org> References: <20150108142438.6c6a16fa@asrock.bcwi.net> <54B064CF.9020504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: For reasons I don't quite understand, this was held up as spam and I needed to approve it. I think Google pushed out some change to their groups product again and suddenly the gears seem to doing something. --Chuck On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > For people in the SF Bay area > > Excess Solutions moved to 1555 7th, across from Spartan Stadium and I > went down to see the new place. Mike told me he's having a grand opening > BBQ tomorrow. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bay Area Computer Collectors" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to baccl+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to baccl at googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/baccl. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. From mstaunton at roadrunner.com Mon Jan 12 21:27:30 2015 From: mstaunton at roadrunner.com (Matthew Staunton) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 19:27:30 -0800 Subject: San Diego: 1991 era AS400 Message-ID: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> hello all i just joined and am based in Carlsbad CA. I have several servers from the 1991 (yes they include fully functional CRTs and keyboard/mouse). After several conversions with JJ owner and curator for the San Diego Museum in Australia he suggested i contact this forum. Is anybody interested in these? I can also be reached at 760703096 From b4 at gewt.net Tue Jan 13 00:58:33 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 01:58:33 -0500 Subject: San Diego: 1991 era AS400 In-Reply-To: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> References: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: Pricing and if you'd ship any is a good starting point too Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 12, 2015, at 22:27, Matthew Staunton wrote: > > hello all > i just joined and am based in Carlsbad CA. I have several servers from the 1991 (yes they include fully functional CRTs and keyboard/mouse). > After several conversions with JJ owner and curator for the San Diego Museum in Australia he suggested i contact this forum. Is anybody interested in these? I can also be reached at 760703096 From b4 at gewt.net Tue Jan 13 00:58:33 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 01:58:33 -0500 Subject: San Diego: 1991 era AS400 In-Reply-To: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> References: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: Pricing and if you'd ship any is a good starting point too Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 12, 2015, at 22:27, Matthew Staunton wrote: > > hello all > i just joined and am based in Carlsbad CA. I have several servers from the 1991 (yes they include fully functional CRTs and keyboard/mouse). > After several conversions with JJ owner and curator for the San Diego Museum in Australia he suggested i contact this forum. Is anybody interested in these? I can also be reached at 760703096 From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 07:02:43 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 11:02:43 -0200 Subject: Looking for a free host for tabajara labs Message-ID: <003B267FFEE74089AB71C0EB914E7169@deskjara> Good things, bad things. I got in love with Hostinger, and uploaded my site (www.tabalabs.com.br) there. But seems that in the time I needed them most (my site was advertised into a famous brazilian site) they fell down...I have a (fairly) limitted number of pageviews in the free plan. Anyone that could (free!) host a retrocomputing site? Less than a GB. Thanks! --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com From scaron at umich.edu Tue Jan 13 09:26:53 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 10:26:53 -0500 Subject: Looking for a free host for tabajara labs In-Reply-To: <003B267FFEE74089AB71C0EB914E7169@deskjara> References: <003B267FFEE74089AB71C0EB914E7169@deskjara> Message-ID: I could help you out, I have the lowest speed grade of Comcast business Internet at home with plenty of static IPs if you need them. Let me know if you're interested and I can get you set up with an account, etc. Best, Sean On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:02 AM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > Good things, bad things. > > I got in love with Hostinger, and uploaded my site (www.tabalabs.com.br) > there. But seems that in the time I needed them most (my site was > advertised into a famous brazilian site) they fell down...I have a (fairly) > limitted number of pageviews in the free plan. > > Anyone that could (free!) host a retrocomputing site? Less than a GB. > > Thanks! > > --- > Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com > > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 13 10:49:57 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 11:49:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 Message-ID: <20150113164957.08C1218C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: js > as a frequent buyer, it also highly annoys me when systems on eBay or > Craiglist are found and rebroadcasted here. Now, my chance find has > been made aware to a much wider audience, the competition shoots way > up, and I have to pay more. Since I'm one of the people who has been doing this (e.g. recent PDP-8 postings), I'd like to weigh in with a few thoughts on this topic. To begin, as to the point that it's costing you more money, I'm afraid I don't find that a big factor, for several reasons. First, as Mark Tapley explained down-thread: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-January/002533.html from the point of view of saving history, higher prices are better. If people start to think of these older machines as possibly collectable items of some value, they are less likely to toss them into the trash without further ado. (Yes, yes, I know, not all old computers are worth saving - just like not all old cars are, either. But unless you ask someone who knows, you don't know whether your old junker is a clunker or a jewel in the rough.) Second, you're only getting that item 'for cheap' because some other collector, to whom it might be even more emotionally important, doesn't know of it. I do have more sympathy with the point of view that says 'I spent a lot of time trawling through eBay, etc listings looking for that one diamond in a sea of pebbles; why should all my work be devalued by someone who just posts the listing so everyone can get on board?' I have some sympathy for that take (especially since I myself spend a fair amount of time looking through eBay for PDP-11 stuff :-), but for me it's out-weighed by the 'hey, I have this information, it's no use to me, I'd like to share it with people for whom it might be highly useful'. > Auctions are not collegial -- they're competitive, and since when is > competition a negative? I'm not sure of your point here (the second part seems to be at odds with the first), but I will say that I think widely-attended auctions, starting at a modest price, are desirable: they are the best way to set the _true_ value of something. Too many items on eBay have some incredibly high Buy-It-Now price, and they sit forever, until someone really desperate buys it - which just encourages other sellers to ask for un-realistic amounts. So I applaud the sellers who put things up for real auctions. Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 13 13:56:23 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 19:56:23 -0000 Subject: Framing Core Memory Message-ID: <017901d02f6b$02502f80$06f08e80$@ntlworld.com> I have been given a tiny piece of core memory, about 1cmx1cm. It has obviously been cut from a larger piece and is almost certainly unusable. I would therefore like to frame it for display and to show to young people. Is there a recommended good way to mount the core for framing with the smallest amount of possible damage? Thanks Rob From scaron at umich.edu Tue Jan 13 09:59:43 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 10:59:43 -0500 Subject: San Diego: 1991 era AS400 In-Reply-To: References: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: I might be interested in one if they are on the smaller side and you'd be willing to palletize and ship to the dock at my office (at my expense, of course). Complete systems, right? I always wanted to play around with an AS/400. Can you offer more specifics as to what you've got on hand? No promises but my curiosity is piqued. Best, Sean On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 1:58 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Pricing and if you'd ship any is a good starting point too > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 12, 2015, at 22:27, Matthew Staunton > wrote: > > > > hello all > > i just joined and am based in Carlsbad CA. I have several servers from > the 1991 (yes they include fully functional CRTs and keyboard/mouse). > > After several conversions with JJ owner and curator for the San Diego > Museum in Australia he suggested i contact this forum. Is anybody > interested in these? I can also be reached at 760703096 > From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Tue Jan 13 14:32:58 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:32:58 -0500 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data Message-ID: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran Windows for workgroups 3.11. The computer is long gone, but I saved the disk. It is a 420 MB Conner. I recently tried to recover the data by attaching it to one of those IDE/SATA to USB devices and read it under Windows7, didn't work. I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to save won't fit on a floppy. I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it tries to start WIN3.1 but exits because of some missing sound card hardware. What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any help? From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 13 14:57:40 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 14:57:40 -0600 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <006001d02f73$91b3f960$b51bec20$@com> You can attach the drive via the adapter cable to Linux, copy the files you want to USB flash drive, then put them on the computer of your choice. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Taylor Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 2:33 PM To: Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran Windows for workgroups 3.11. The computer is long gone, but I saved the disk. It is a 420 MB Conner. I recently tried to recover the data by attaching it to one of those IDE/SATA to USB devices and read it under Windows7, didn't work. I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to save won't fit on a floppy. I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it tries to start WIN3.1 but exits because of some missing sound card hardware. What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any help? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4257/8923 - Release Date: 01/13/15 From scaron at umich.edu Tue Jan 13 14:58:06 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:58:06 -0500 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: I'm surprised you had any trouble with the USB to IDE, usually they work pretty seamlessly. One thing to check is, whether the drive is explicitly set to master? A lot of those branded PCs used drives set to Cable Select and then had a funky IDE cable with one of the pins crossed or something. Best, Sean On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 3:32 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran Windows for > workgroups 3.11. The computer is long gone, but I saved the disk. It is a > 420 MB Conner. I recently tried to recover the data by attaching it to one > of those IDE/SATA to USB devices and read it under Windows7, didn't work. > > I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to save won't fit > on a floppy. > > I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it tries to start > WIN3.1 but exits because of some missing sound card hardware. > > What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any help? > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 13 14:58:09 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 12:58:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jan 2015, Douglas Taylor wrote: > In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran Windows for workgroups > 3.11. The computer is long gone, but I saved the disk. It is a 420 MB > Conner. I recently tried to recover the data by attaching it to one of those > IDE/SATA to USB devices and read it under Windows7, didn't work. > > I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to save won't fit on > a floppy. > > I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it tries to start WIN3.1 > but exits because of some missing sound card hardware. > > What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any help? > Just abort the AUTOEXEC.BAT processing. F8 I think. That'll allow you to abort the Windows start and hit a DOS prompt without interference. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 13 14:59:19 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 12:59:19 -0800 Subject: Framing Core Memory In-Reply-To: <017901d02f6b$02502f80$06f08e80$@ntlworld.com> References: <017901d02f6b$02502f80$06f08e80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54B58727.1040604@sydex.com> On 01/13/2015 11:56 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have been given a tiny piece of core memory, about 1cmx1cm. It has > obviously been cut from a larger piece and is almost certainly unusable. I > would therefore like to frame it for display and to show to young people. Is > there a recommended good way to mount the core for framing with the smallest > amount of possible damage? Between two spaced players of perspex/plexiglass would seem to be the best. If it's strictly an exhibit, you might even pot it in clear polyester resin. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 13 15:13:42 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 13:13:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <006001d02f73$91b3f960$b51bec20$@com> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> <006001d02f73$91b3f960$b51bec20$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jan 2015, Electronics Plus wrote: > You can attach the drive via the adapter cable to Linux, copy the files > you want to USB flash drive, then put them on the computer of your > choice. The problem is that some of the more "modern" IDE to USB adapters don't like talking to the older drives. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From tots at matinino.com Tue Jan 13 15:17:24 2015 From: tots at matinino.com (Hector Saint-Prix) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:17:24 -0400 Subject: IBM System/36 Message-ID: <54B58B64.2060402@matinino.com> Hello everyone (new to this list), I have in a place I need to clear an IBM System/36 class mini-computer collecting dust. Before it ends up in scrap, I would like to make sure is not of any value for collector/hobbyist or a computer museum for parts or as a whole. Any lead will help. Thanks. IBM's System/36 page: https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/rochester/rochester_4018.html Hector From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 15:20:25 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 21:20:25 -0000 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <276201d02f76$bf9c1cb0$3ed45610$@gmail.com> Have you tried Disk2VHD from here:- http://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/sysinternals/ee656415.aspx you may then be able to boot the disk in Virtual PC, VMWare or DOSBOX. You can also mount the VHD as a drive in Windows/7 from Disk Manager. Dave G4UGM -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Taylor Sent: 13 January 2015 20:33 To: Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran Windows for workgroups 3.11. The computer is long gone, but I saved the disk. It is a 420 MB Conner. I recently tried to recover the data by attaching it to one of those IDE/SATA to USB devices and read it under Windows7, didn't work. I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to save won't fit on a floppy. I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it tries to start WIN3.1 but exits because of some missing sound card hardware. What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any help? From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 15:23:13 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:23:13 -0500 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <33202268FE474CFC9E0D2E453C340966@310e2> Many if not most IDE<>USB adapters have trouble with old drives that only know Cyl/Trk/Sec and not LBA. Once you get that old PC booted PKZIP or any of the 'split' programs will let you copy to multiple floppies if the PC is too old for a USB stick or networking of some sort. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Taylor" To: "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 3:32 PM Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data > In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran Windows for > workgroups 3.11. The computer is long gone, but I saved the disk. It is a > 420 MB Conner. I recently tried to recover the data by attaching it to > one of those IDE/SATA to USB devices and read it under Windows7, didn't > work. > > I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to save won't fit > on a floppy. > > I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it tries to start > WIN3.1 but exits because of some missing sound card hardware. > > What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any help? From ba600 at ncf.ca Tue Jan 13 15:24:22 2015 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:24:22 -0500 Subject: Framing Core Memory In-Reply-To: <017901d02f6b$02502f80$06f08e80$@ntlworld.com> References: <017901d02f6b$02502f80$06f08e80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9131811.Qs1xqUjqjY@linux-zlo2> On Tuesday, January 13, 2015 19:56:23 Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have been given a tiny piece of core memory, about 1cmx1cm. It has > obviously been cut from a larger piece and is almost certainly unusable. I > would therefore like to frame it for display and to show to young people. Is > there a recommended good way to mount the core for framing with the > smallest amount of possible damage? I have a piece that is fanfold about 4' tall and several folds wide that I'd like to section for display -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From david at attglobal.net Tue Jan 13 15:32:14 2015 From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:32:14 -0500 Subject: Framing Core Memory In-Reply-To: <54B58727.1040604@sydex.com> References: <017901d02f6b$02502f80$06f08e80$@ntlworld.com> <54B58727.1040604@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54B58EDE.3080902@attglobal.net> On 1/13/2015 3:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/13/2015 11:56 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> I have been given a tiny piece of core memory, about 1cmx1cm. It has >> obviously been cut from a larger piece and is almost certainly >> unusable. I >> would therefore like to frame it for display and to show to young >> people. Is >> there a recommended good way to mount the core for framing with the >> smallest >> amount of possible damage? > > Between two spaced players of perspex/plexiglass would seem to be the > best. Seconded... I have one of Tony Cole's Cray-1 boards mounted that way. Looks great and is easy to dust. :-) From jon at jonworld.com Tue Jan 13 15:41:40 2015 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 22:41:40 +0100 Subject: IBM System/36 In-Reply-To: <54B58B64.2060402@matinino.com> References: <54B58B64.2060402@matinino.com> Message-ID: <2E827E36-3CAA-4F7E-B0FC-5A5441E59F7A@jonworld.com> Letting us know where you are located could help greatly. Sent from my mobile device. Please pardon any brevity. > On Jan 13, 2015, at 22:17, Hector Saint-Prix wrote: > > Hello everyone (new to this list), > I have in a place I need to clear an IBM System/36 class mini-computer collecting dust. Before it ends up in scrap, I would like to make sure is not of any value for collector/hobbyist or a computer museum for parts or as a whole. > Any lead will help. > Thanks. > > IBM's System/36 page: > https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/rochester/rochester_4018.html > > Hector From francois.dion at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 15:44:05 2015 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:44:05 -0500 Subject: IBM System/36 In-Reply-To: <2E827E36-3CAA-4F7E-B0FC-5A5441E59F7A@jonworld.com> References: <54B58B64.2060402@matinino.com> <2E827E36-3CAA-4F7E-B0FC-5A5441E59F7A@jonworld.com> Message-ID: I think he is in Martinique. I'd find a computer club to donate it to. On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > Letting us know where you are located could help greatly. > > Sent from my mobile device. Please pardon any brevity. > > > On Jan 13, 2015, at 22:17, Hector Saint-Prix wrote: > > > > Hello everyone (new to this list), > > I have in a place I need to clear an IBM System/36 class mini-computer > collecting dust. Before it ends up in scrap, I would like to make sure is > not of any value for collector/hobbyist or a computer museum for parts or > as a whole. > > Any lead will help. > > Thanks. > > > > IBM's System/36 page: > > > https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/rochester/rochester_4018.html > > > > Hector > From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Jan 13 16:01:06 2015 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 22:01:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jan 2015, Douglas Taylor wrote: > In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran Windows for workgroups > 3.11. The computer is long gone, but I saved the disk. It is a 420 MB Conner. > I recently tried to recover the data by attaching it to one of those IDE/SATA to > USB devices and read it under Windows7, didn't work. > > I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to save won't fit on a > floppy. > > I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it tries to start WIN3.1 > but exits because of some missing sound card hardware. > > What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any help? How old is "old PC", is it at least 80386? Do you have another IDE disk available that works with your IDE/SATA to USB bridge? Given that you mentioned Linux I infer you're prepared to use it and then I think the path of least resistance (for me at least, FWIW) would be to install Linux on that other disk to start it on the old PC and then copy data from the other disk there. The two disks should work just fine as a master and a slave with any IDE adapter (very old IDE disks occasionally had compatibility problems in a master/slave configuration with other drives, but that would be within the 40MB range rather than 400MB). You may have to find an old distribution to stay compatible with your old PC's processor, but that shouldn't be a problem (I have recently looked for RedHat 2.1 to check something there and it was still online). Beware of the old limitations though, often long forgotten, such as the need to put the boot partition within the first 508MB; other data may be anywhere. You may need to know the right C/H/S disk geometry too when installing the boot loader. Of course you can boot the kernel from a floppy instead since you have it; then you can ignore the limitations. Please note that support for the 80386 has been dropped from the Linux kernel a while ago and modern distributions may require a newer yet processor such as at least a P6-class one due to the instruction set selection made with package compilation options; to say nothing of memory size requirements, that is. Maciej From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 13 16:17:59 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 14:17:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20150113140425.B52872@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 13 Jan 2015, Douglas Taylor wrote: > In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran Windows for > workgroups 3.11. The computer is long gone, but I saved the disk. It is > a 420 MB Conner. I recently tried to recover the data by attaching it > to one of those IDE/SATA to USB devices and read it under Windows7, > didn't work. > I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to save won't > fit on a floppy. THAT is a soluble problem. > I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it tries to start > WIN3.1 but exits because of some missing sound card hardware. > What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any help? You could try a recovery via Linux. What would you gain? You are already getting the capability of saving files to floppy. 1) can you install a bigger "floppy". Such as CDR, floptical, a second hard disk that is easier to work with, a USB flash drive, . . . What version of DOS is it? Official support of USB flash drives didn't really happen until Win98SE. If you can't install a bigger drive, . . . 2) Can you boot your Win3.11 in "safe mode" and disable the demand for sound card? Then you have a few more options. Got a network card? or a modem? and communications software? Dial-up internet will take a VERY long time. Z/XMODEM transfer will take a long time, but doesn't require much hardware. If communications are also out, . . . 3) you should be able to get additional software into the machine by putting it on floppy with another machine. PKZIP should be able to split large files. If not, there are other programs that can. BACKUP, which came with DOS can split files. You might then need to play SETVER games on another machine to run it there to read those split files back in. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 13 16:26:27 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 14:26:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Framing Core Memory In-Reply-To: <017901d02f6b$02502f80$06f08e80$@ntlworld.com> References: <017901d02f6b$02502f80$06f08e80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20150113142431.M52872@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 13 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have been given a tiny piece of core memory, about 1cmx1cm. It has > obviously been cut from a larger piece and is almost certainly unusable. I > would therefore like to frame it for display and to show to young people. Is > there a recommended good way to mount the core for framing with the smallest > amount of possible damage? howzbout mount it on a bit of perf-board, with standoffs and a piece of plex over it. Or just plex both sides. But the perf-board would give you an easier way to bring out connecting wires, and have some accessible terminals to poke at it with. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 13 16:33:50 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 14:33:50 -0800 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <54B59D4E.9090205@jwsss.com> On 1/13/2015 12:32 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran Windows for > workgroups 3.11. The computer is long gone, but I saved the disk. It > is a 420 MB Conner. I recently tried to recover the data by attaching > it to one of those IDE/SATA to USB devices and read it under Windows7, > didn't work. > > I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to save won't > fit on a floppy. > > I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it tries to start > WIN3.1 but exits because of some missing sound card hardware. > > What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any help? > > I would look at other solution implementations of the USB dongle. I have some that work and some that do with various different IDE drives. Some of it could have been strict setting of master / slave settings. There were some drives that had master only and master on one drive, master on the other when there were two drives involved. Sometimes it worked fine in one system with those drives, but other controllers didn't like the setting if you moved the single drive. I also am suspicious of some of the power supplies that come in the kit with the IDE / USB dongles. I had some that worked if I left them in the original systems, but didn't work on the power supply that came with the USB dongle external to the system. The disk imaging is a good route to pursue, as windows 3.1 will run under vmware if you wish to do so. And it can run quite well with some driver work. Since it was a pile of stuff on top of Dos, you can play with the drivers quite a lot and not mess up the system. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 13 16:56:39 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 14:56:39 -0800 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <54B5A2A7.5030102@sydex.com> On 01/13/2015 12:32 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran Windows for > workgroups 3.11. The computer is long gone, but I saved the disk. It is > a 420 MB Conner. I recently tried to recover the data by attaching it > to one of those IDE/SATA to USB devices and read it under Windows7, > didn't work. > > I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to save won't > fit on a floppy. > > I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it tries to start > WIN3.1 but exits because of some missing sound card hardware. > > What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any help? Got another DOS machine? Boot both from floppy; use Laplink or Interlink to transfer your files. You could also try a comms package to transfer data via serial cable (e.g. try Procomm). If the original machine boots, there are many possibilities. I once did a linkup with a system with NO serial or parallel ports (and an utterly incompatible with anything floppy setup) by bit banging an LED on the console and picking the bits up with a phototransistor connected to some parallel port pins. --Chuck From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Jan 13 17:01:22 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:01:22 -0800 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B5A2A7.5030102@sydex.com> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> <54B5A2A7.5030102@sydex.com> Message-ID: <03b801d02f84$db5f9f90$921edeb0$@net> > If the original machine boots, there are many possibilities. I once > did a linkup with a system with NO serial or parallel ports (and an > utterly incompatible with anything floppy setup) by bit banging an LED > on the console and picking the bits up with a phototransistor connected > to some parallel port pins. Chuck, I hate to think how long it would take to transfer a 400MB drive using that method... Of course if the data is valuable enough... From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 13 17:22:32 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 23:22:32 -0000 Subject: Framing Core Memory In-Reply-To: <20150113142431.M52872@shell.lmi.net> References: <017901d02f6b$02502f80$06f08e80$@ntlworld.com> <20150113142431.M52872@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <018601d02f87$ce8e7f40$6bab7dc0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 13 January 2015 22:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Framing Core Memory > > On Tue, 13 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I have been given a tiny piece of core memory, about 1cmx1cm. It has > > obviously been cut from a larger piece and is almost certainly > > unusable. I would therefore like to frame it for display and to show > > to young people. Is there a recommended good way to mount the core for > > framing with the smallest amount of possible damage? > > howzbout mount it on a bit of perf-board, with standoffs and a piece of plex > over it. Or just plex both sides. > But the perf-board would give you an easier way to bring out connecting wires, > and have some accessible terminals to poke at it with. I do like the idea of mounting it on perf-board, making it possible to attempt to use the memory somehow for demonstration purposes, but the piece is probably too small, the wires are too short at the edges of the piece, and just too fine for my level of dexterity. A couple of suggestions for perspex/plexiglass, I am guessing basically a "box" made of perspex/plexiglass so that the memory isn't glued to anything. Actually, looking on ebay there appear to be some small display boxes available that would probably do the trick. That sounds like the best approach. Thanks Rob From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 13 17:29:33 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 18:29:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <03b801d02f84$db5f9f90$921edeb0$@net> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> <54B5A2A7.5030102@sydex.com> <03b801d02f84$db5f9f90$921edeb0$@net> Message-ID: <201501132329.SAA05180@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> If the original machine boots, there are many possibilities. I once >> did a linkup with a system with NO serial or parallel ports ([...]) >> by bit banging an LED on the console and picking the bits up with a >> phototransistor connected to some parallel port pins. > I hate to think how long it would take to transfer a 400MB drive using that $ Don't forget, with a technique like that there is no need to limit it to (eg) serial-port speeds; the limitations will be the software on each end, the response time of the LED, and the response time of the phototransistor; these might well permit megabit-plus rates. 420MB at one megabit, unrealistically assuming no framing or error loss (ECC, retransmit, whatever), is under an hour. Cut the speed to 100Kb and double the data for framing and error loss, and my calculation says 19.57+ hours, still less than a day. I don't know about the original poster, but I wouldn't consider that out of the question at all. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jan 13 17:40:02 2015 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 00:40:02 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS Message-ID: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> Well, it's been a long time project, but I'm happy to finally announce a more public initial release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. This is the result of over 20 years of development. Needless to say, I've been doing a lot of things over the years, and this code have been through four reimplementations over the years. What I now release is something that I believe is a nice and useful piece of software. I am aware of the fact that most people do not use these machines any longer, but if someone actually wants to talk to me about support for this or other RSX software, let me know. Also, feel free to spread this information to anyone who might be interested, anywhere. So - what is in this release? It is a complete implementation of ARP, IP, UDP, and TCP for RSX-11M-PLUS. It has been tested on RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6, but should work on any V4 release. There might be some small tweaks or fixes required, but nothing major. It do require a system with split I/D-space, or else at least the TCP part will not fit. For Unibus machines, it should be possible to run without any additional software except what is in a base RSX distribution. For Q-bus machines, DECnet is required for ethernet networking. The TCP/IP stack can co-exist with DECnet. Some utilities also utilize RMS for file access. A bunch of tools, utilities and libraries are also included. These include: . IFCONFIG network configuration tool. . NETSTAT network information tool. . PING . TRACEROUTE . DNS client . FTP daemon . FTP client . HTTP server . TELNET client (rudimentary) . TFTP client . TFTP server . INET server that can do SINK, ECHO, DAYTIME, QUOTE, and IDENT . NTP client . LPR client that sits in the queue manager (rudimentary) . FORTRAN-77 library . BASIC+2 library . PDP-11 C library The implementation fulfills most of the requirements put forth in RFC 1122. There are a few limitations because of restrictions in the PDP-11, but none of them should really cause any problems. Documentation is still on the thin side, but example configs are also provided, along with installation scripts. A bunch of test programs and example programs are also included, as well as the sources of all tools and libraries. The TCP/IP stack itself only comes in binary form. All tools are also included precompiled in the distribution, so an installation only have to build the stack itself for your system, and then you should be ready to go. The API only have a slight resemblance to the Unix sockets API. However, if someone sits down to write code to use TCP/IP under RSX, I'm sure they will discover that it is extremely easy to use the libraries, or the basic functions. The TCP/IP implementation is mostly written as device drivers. This also have some other interesting implications, such as it is possible to access TCP as a normal file. You can, for instance do something similar to the Unix netcat command by issuing the MCR command: > PIP TI:=TC:"foo.com";4711 which would open a connection to foo.com, on port 4711, and any data sent from that machine will be shown on the terminal. The resources used by TCP/IP are modest. A memory area (size selectable at generation/startup) is used internally. The amount of memory in the private pool limits the amount of data that can be buffered. Normal pool is used in a small quantity for each TCP port that is open. People are welcome to play around with this, and make improvements. Contributions of code is most welcome. There are still lots of things to do. The programs marked as rudimentary should be rewritten. The most obvious thing still missing is a telnet daemon, which probably is my next step. However, the reason for now announcing the release is that it can finally be distributed natively from an RSX host. The main locations to download the TCP/IP for RSX are: Madame.Update.UU.SE (anonymous ftp). This is one of my development systems for this software. It runs under E11, and if things are down, I blame E11. :-) When connected, you are already in the right directory. There is both an RL02 disk image there, which can be downloaded by anyone. If you happen to have an RSX system which you are conneting from, you can also try getting the BQTCP.TAP tape image. Such an image will not transport cleanly to a non-RSX system, however. Sorry. ftp.Update.UU.SE (anonymous ftp) - /pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip The disk image is normally duplicated to ftp.update.uu.se as well, so the same file can be found there. I hope some people will find this useful/amusing. :-) Johnny Billquist -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 13 18:04:55 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:04:55 -0800 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <201501132329.SAA05180@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> <54B5A2A7.5030102@sydex.com> <03b801d02f84$db5f9f90$921edeb0$@net> <201501132329.SAA05180@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <54B5B2A7.2050701@jwsss.com> Depending on the BIOS, you could attach a drive with an IDE (host facing) to SATA connector and a small drive to the system. This probably would have to go to a second IDE port, so both could be independent of each other. Image the 420mb drive to the SATA drive, and remove it. Jim On 1/13/2015 3:29 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> If the original machine boots, there are many possibilities. I once >>> did a linkup with a system with NO serial or parallel ports ([...]) >>> by bit banging an LED on the console and picking the bits up with a >>> phototransistor connected to some parallel port pins. >> I hate to think how long it would take to transfer a 400MB drive using that $ > Don't forget, with a technique like that there is no need to limit it > to (eg) serial-port speeds; the limitations will be the software on > each end, the response time of the LED, and the response time of the > phototransistor; these might well permit megabit-plus rates. > > 420MB at one megabit, unrealistically assuming no framing or error > loss (ECC, retransmit, whatever), is under an hour. Cut the speed to > 100Kb and double the data for framing and error loss, and my > calculation says 19.57+ hours, still less than a day. > > I don't know about the original poster, but I wouldn't consider that > out of the question at all. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Jan 13 18:07:40 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 18:07:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <33202268FE474CFC9E0D2E453C340966@310e2> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> <33202268FE474CFC9E0D2E453C340966@310e2> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jan 2015, Mike Stein wrote: > Many if not most IDE<>USB adapters have trouble with old drives that > only know Cyl/Trk/Sec and not LBA. > > Once you get that old PC booted PKZIP or any of the 'split' programs > will let you copy to multiple floppies if the PC is too old for a USB > stick or networking of some sort. Those sort of USB<->ATA adapters also only work with later ATA drives which report their CHS values /and/ which were formatted using their default (not manually selected) CHS values. A CFA420A would have been new right around the time ATA drives began reporting their CHS so they could be autoconfigured in CMOS setup, but many motherboard and PC manufacturers still didn't support autoconfiguration until later. Many name brand PC manufacturers also didn't even have a user definable drive type available, so the end user would often have to select a /close/ drive from a table of predefined drive types, which probably wouldn't have the same CHS values as the drive. If I were to guess, it is quite possible the Packard Bell machine the CFA420A drive had been installed in was one of these systems that did not support drive autoconfiguration and probably didn't have a user definable drive type. Getting one of these drives to work 100% error-free with a different motherboard is often a trial and error sort of thing, but it can be done. Given the small size of the drive, I'd probably just use a SCSI connected ZIP drive to do the transfer. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 18:17:36 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 00:17:36 -0000 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B5B2A7.2050701@jwsss.com> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> <54B5A2A7.5030102@sydex.com> <03b801d02f84$db5f9f90$921edeb0$@net> <201501132329.SAA05180@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54B5B2A7.2050701@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <0cba01d02f8f$803d8a90$80b89fb0$@gmail.com> What about using a CF Card adaptor and CF Card? Would that work? Alternatively stick an ISA network card in the machine (NE2000 clone preferably, and I think some of these come with 10BaseT) and then boot the DOS TCP/IP client. If the machine will boot from floppy it is also possible to make a bootable GHOST disk that will make a ghost image over the network. Failing that you could use the KA9Q TCP/IP software and FTP the files across. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile Sent: 14 January 2015 00:05 To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Recovering Win3.1 Data Depending on the BIOS, you could attach a drive with an IDE (host facing) to SATA connector and a small drive to the system. This probably would have to go to a second IDE port, so both could be independent of each other. Image the 420mb drive to the SATA drive, and remove it. Jim On 1/13/2015 3:29 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> If the original machine boots, there are many possibilities. I once >>> did a linkup with a system with NO serial or parallel ports ([...]) >>> by bit banging an LED on the console and picking the bits up with a >>> phototransistor connected to some parallel port pins. >> I hate to think how long it would take to transfer a 400MB drive >> using that $ > Don't forget, with a technique like that there is no need to limit it > to (eg) serial-port speeds; the limitations will be the software on > each end, the response time of the LED, and the response time of the > phototransistor; these might well permit megabit-plus rates. > > 420MB at one megabit, unrealistically assuming no framing or error > loss (ECC, retransmit, whatever), is under an hour. Cut the speed to > 100Kb and double the data for framing and error loss, and my > calculation says 19.57+ hours, still less than a day. > > I don't know about the original poster, but I wouldn't consider that > out of the question at all. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 13 18:24:19 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:24:19 -0800 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <03b801d02f84$db5f9f90$921edeb0$@net> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> <54B5A2A7.5030102@sydex.com> <03b801d02f84$db5f9f90$921edeb0$@net> Message-ID: <54B5B733.6000701@sydex.com> On 01/13/2015 03:01 PM, Ali wrote: > I hate to think how long it would take to transfer a 400MB drive using that method... Of course if the data is valuable enough... ZIP-ing the data up helps. Start it up, go to bed. If you use a parallel LL cable (I've got a carton full of them, if anyone needs one), it goes much faster. Or use a ZIP drive, if you've got one; if you've got a CD burner, do it that way. You get the idea. Skinning cats and such... :) --Chuck From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Jan 13 19:05:13 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 19:05:13 -0600 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <54B2BF58.8080405@bitsavers.org> <54B2DC12.7010804@cimmeri.com> <54B32B0D.9040806@bitsavers.org> <54B3F7C9.3010906@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <20150114010513.GC14460@lonesome.com> On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 11:54:35AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote: > I will always have some nostalgia for those bits of technology that really > sparked the passion in me, got me where I am today. Others must feel > similarly, no? No. No, we don't. That's why everyone should just, um, give up, and, say, send their PDP-11s to me. I'll take them off your hands. Really. I don't want you to suffer. Especially a PDP-11/20. I'll even pay shipping for one. Trust me. Your well-being is my only concern. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Jan 13 19:14:40 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 19:14:40 -0600 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <020001d02dcd$e3790850$aa6b18f0$@net> Message-ID: <20150114011440.GD14460@lonesome.com> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:42:04PM +0200, Johannes Thelen wrote: > I think these all Storage Hunters, Storage Wars and other Shit Collectors > "reality" TV series, is what to blame here: "What is is?" "Looks like old > door but it is just probably pile of shit!" "Man, you get AT LEAST 5000$ > for it!" I'm not sure they are to blame, but they are kind of funny :-) I remember seeing one where one of the buyers I had considered "serious" up to then, picked up a 24-port 1U switch: "Oh, that's worth $100". Um. A 10/100 switch. And it's not 1999 anymore :-) I don't know about anyone else, but I think the only use for such a thing, is, "Throw it at the nearest Politician." mcl From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jan 13 20:52:14 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 20:52:14 -0600 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <54B5D9DE.2060606@pico-systems.com> On 01/13/2015 02:32 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran > Windows for workgroups 3.11. The computer is long gone, > but I saved the disk. It is a 420 MB Conner. I recently > tried to recover the data by attaching it to one of those > IDE/SATA to USB devices and read it under Windows7, didn't > work. > > I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to > save won't fit on a floppy. > > I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it > tries to start WIN3.1 but exits because of some missing > sound card hardware. > > What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any > help? > Yes, Linux will be able to easily read the disk. Once you have a Linux system up, plug in the drive. it MIGHT automatically mount the drive as /media/ or you might have to manually mount it if it doesn't automatically detect the file system type. the commands would be something like : If you don't know what partition is the user data one, do this: sudo fdisk /dev/sdb p lists out the partitions on the drive, and the file system types q /dev/sdb would be the second drive on the system, which could be the CD, if so, the added drive might be /dev/sdc ls /dev/sd* will show the various drives as /dev/sd and available partitions as /dev/sd mkdir /mnt/disk sudo mount -t msdos /dev/sd /mnt/disk now, the disk should be mounted under /mnt/disk, and you can list it, copy files, etc. Jon From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 13 21:45:26 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 19:45:26 -0800 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <20150114011440.GD14460@lonesome.com> References: <99E8E975D1114369AC978A0CD0EC6B12@workshop> <54B1F0E8.4080503@shiresoft.com> <54B24751.90101@jwsss.com> <54B2937D.4090805@cimmeri.com> <020001d02dcd$e3790850$aa6b18f0$@net> <20150114011440.GD14460@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <54B5E656.9080208@jwsss.com> On 1/13/2015 5:14 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:42:04PM +0200, Johannes Thelen wrote: >> I think these all Storage Hunters, Storage Wars and other Shit Collectors >> "reality" TV series, is what to blame here: "What is is?" "Looks like old >> door but it is just probably pile of shit!" "Man, you get AT LEAST 5000$ >> for it!" > I'm not sure they are to blame, but they are kind of funny :-) > > I remember seeing one where one of the buyers I had considered "serious" > up to then, picked up a 24-port 1U switch: "Oh, that's worth $100". Um. > A 10/100 switch. And it's not 1999 anymore :-) > > I don't know about anyone else, but I think the only use for such a thing, > is, "Throw it at the nearest Politician." > > mcl FWIW the only Storage Wars show I've see anything computer related on, they put a price on an ABC DB-25 switch of $5, and a network switch of $10. The Storage Wars people seem to call around a lot to get appraisals As with anything, this stuff will sit on the store shelves or in the online inventory of the people on the SW shows and they will mark it down if it doesn't sell. Just like anything in a junk store. They aren't setting the prices for this stuff. If anything they hopefully make the point that some of the older stuff is worth more than just metal scrap. The Storage Hunters did damage, I think because they tried to wing it on their own, and didn't get any input from someone. I'm not sure how to get out the word about the other component of collecting which is that this stuff won't survive being handled by Barry (on Storage Wars) who tends to throw things from the back of the unit into the hallway. Heavier pieces in the Storage Hunters show I saw where they mangled a nice DEC stash, they trashed the removable media, which possibly was the most valuable thing in the unit. Jim From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 13 22:01:02 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 20:01:02 -0800 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> Message-ID: <131FF12A-4703-49B8-A6DB-ED559EC4A048@aracnet.com> On Jan 13, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Well, it's been a long time project, but I'm happy to finally announce a more public initial release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. > I hope some people will find this useful/amusing. :-) I don't find it amusing, I find it amazingly cool! This is fantastic news! The HTTP server and LPR client sound especially interesting. Now we have a freely available TCP/IP stack for both RT-11 and RSX-11M-PLUS. I just wish there was one for RSTS/E, but as far as I know, it has never even had a commercial stack. Zane From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 13 22:10:30 2015 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 20:10:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq Portable knob Message-ID: Does anyone here have a contrast knob from a Compaq Portable or good-looking substitute? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 13 22:38:38 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 23:38:38 -0500 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <131FF12A-4703-49B8-A6DB-ED559EC4A048@aracnet.com> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <131FF12A-4703-49B8-A6DB-ED559EC4A048@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <54B5F2CE.3050901@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/01/15 11:01 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > On Jan 13, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Well, it's been a long time project, but I'm happy to finally announce a more public initial release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. > > > >> I hope some people will find this useful/amusing. :-) > > I don't find it amusing, I find it amazingly cool! This is fantastic news! The HTTP server and LPR client sound especially interesting. Now we have a freely available TCP/IP stack for both RT-11 and RSX-11M-PLUS. I just wish there was one for RSTS/E, but as far as I know, it has never even had a commercial stack. > > Zane > > > > I agree, very impressive. You said that contributions are welcome, but the TCP/IP stack is binary - will you be open sourcing it at any point? --Toby From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 14 00:03:22 2015 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 22:03:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring a Compaq Portable Message-ID: In my further adventures in restoring a Compaq Portable, I have these problems: 1) Missing brightness knob. Solution: I posted earlier about this. A few people in #classiccmp think they may have one. 2) Capacitive disks under the keys are rotten. Solution: http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/sol_keys.html sounds good, except I'll use 3M 77 spray. 3) I can't get the keyboard to respond at all. I tried touching the capacitive pads with bare fingers, anti-static bag material, etc. Nothing works. Solution: I don't know. I suspect the scan driver and/or the sense amp chips may be bad. These are Exar 22-950-3B (sense driver) and 22-908-93A (sense amp). Does anyone here know a decent source of these and/or data sheets? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mstaunton at roadrunner.com Tue Jan 13 19:48:52 2015 From: mstaunton at roadrunner.com (Matthew Staunton) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:48:52 -0800 Subject: San Diego: 1991 era AS400 In-Reply-To: References: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: pricing is open as for shipping we would include in pricing. These systems with CRT are well over 200lbs each. I will post specs this weekend. Sent from my iPad On Jan 12, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Pricing and if you'd ship any is a good starting point too > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 12, 2015, at 22:27, Matthew Staunton wrote: >> >> hello all >> i just joined and am based in Carlsbad CA. I have several servers from the 1991 (yes they include fully functional CRTs and keyboard/mouse). >> After several conversions with JJ owner and curator for the San Diego Museum in Australia he suggested i contact this forum. Is anybody interested in these? I can also be reached at 760703096 From mstaunton at roadrunner.com Tue Jan 13 19:48:52 2015 From: mstaunton at roadrunner.com (Matthew Staunton) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:48:52 -0800 Subject: San Diego: 1991 era AS400 In-Reply-To: References: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: pricing is open as for shipping we would include in pricing. These systems with CRT are well over 200lbs each. I will post specs this weekend. Sent from my iPad On Jan 12, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Pricing and if you'd ship any is a good starting point too > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 12, 2015, at 22:27, Matthew Staunton wrote: >> >> hello all >> i just joined and am based in Carlsbad CA. I have several servers from the 1991 (yes they include fully functional CRTs and keyboard/mouse). >> After several conversions with JJ owner and curator for the San Diego Museum in Australia he suggested i contact this forum. Is anybody interested in these? I can also be reached at 760703096 From mstaunton at roadrunner.com Tue Jan 13 19:48:52 2015 From: mstaunton at roadrunner.com (Matthew Staunton) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:48:52 -0800 Subject: San Diego: 1991 era AS400 In-Reply-To: References: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: pricing is open as for shipping we would include in pricing. These systems with CRT are well over 200lbs each. I will post specs this weekend. Sent from my iPad On Jan 12, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Pricing and if you'd ship any is a good starting point too > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 12, 2015, at 22:27, Matthew Staunton wrote: >> >> hello all >> i just joined and am based in Carlsbad CA. I have several servers from the 1991 (yes they include fully functional CRTs and keyboard/mouse). >> After several conversions with JJ owner and curator for the San Diego Museum in Australia he suggested i contact this forum. Is anybody interested in these? I can also be reached at 760703096 From mstaunton at roadrunner.com Tue Jan 13 19:52:24 2015 From: mstaunton at roadrunner.com (Matthew Staunton) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:52:24 -0800 Subject: San Diego: 1991 era AS400 In-Reply-To: References: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <32ADC8F6-EFC7-4E85-84BE-AF21C7A755A4@roadrunner.com> These systems are full size servers and have CRT based screens. Total weight approx 200lbs Sent from my iPad On Jan 13, 2015, at 7:59 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > I might be interested in one if they are on the smaller side and you'd be > willing to palletize and ship to the dock at my office (at my expense, of > course). Complete systems, right? I always wanted to play around with an > AS/400. Can you offer more specifics as to what you've got on hand? No > promises but my curiosity is piqued. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 1:58 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > >> Pricing and if you'd ship any is a good starting point too >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 12, 2015, at 22:27, Matthew Staunton >> wrote: >>> >>> hello all >>> i just joined and am based in Carlsbad CA. I have several servers from >> the 1991 (yes they include fully functional CRTs and keyboard/mouse). >>> After several conversions with JJ owner and curator for the San Diego >> Museum in Australia he suggested i contact this forum. Is anybody >> interested in these? I can also be reached at 760703096 >> From mstaunton at roadrunner.com Tue Jan 13 19:54:29 2015 From: mstaunton at roadrunner.com (Matthew Staunton) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:54:29 -0800 Subject: San Diego: 1991 era AS400 In-Reply-To: References: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: just noticed my phone is not correct 760-703-0986 Sent from my iPad On Jan 13, 2015, at 5:48 PM, Matthew Staunton wrote: > pricing is open as for shipping we would include in pricing. These systems with CRT are well over 200lbs each. I will post specs this weekend. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 12, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > >> Pricing and if you'd ship any is a good starting point too >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 12, 2015, at 22:27, Matthew Staunton wrote: >>> >>> hello all >>> i just joined and am based in Carlsbad CA. I have several servers from the 1991 (yes they include fully functional CRTs and keyboard/mouse). >>> After several conversions with JJ owner and curator for the San Diego Museum in Australia he suggested i contact this forum. Is anybody interested in these? I can also be reached at 760703096 From mstaunton at roadrunner.com Tue Jan 13 19:54:29 2015 From: mstaunton at roadrunner.com (Matthew Staunton) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:54:29 -0800 Subject: San Diego: 1991 era AS400 In-Reply-To: References: <203CEC72-C209-464B-9A34-B3AFF9ECA947@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: just noticed my phone is not correct 760-703-0986 Sent from my iPad On Jan 13, 2015, at 5:48 PM, Matthew Staunton wrote: > pricing is open as for shipping we would include in pricing. These systems with CRT are well over 200lbs each. I will post specs this weekend. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 12, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > >> Pricing and if you'd ship any is a good starting point too >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 12, 2015, at 22:27, Matthew Staunton wrote: >>> >>> hello all >>> i just joined and am based in Carlsbad CA. I have several servers from the 1991 (yes they include fully functional CRTs and keyboard/mouse). >>> After several conversions with JJ owner and curator for the San Diego Museum in Australia he suggested i contact this forum. Is anybody interested in these? I can also be reached at 760703096 From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 22:54:39 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 17:54:39 +1300 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Well, it's been a long time project, but I'm happy to finally announce a > more public initial release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. > Amazing and very cool! Gives me immediate motivation to build an 11/70 with one of my QED boardsets. Goal: webserver running proper DEC OS with proper blinkenlights :-) > The TCP/IP stack itself only comes in binary form. > Ahhh. That will give a lot of people pause for thought, and, some will probably say, might be a distraction from the achievement itself. I trust you know what you're doing :-) Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 02:35:58 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 09:35:58 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <131FF12A-4703-49B8-A6DB-ED559EC4A048@aracnet.com> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <131FF12A-4703-49B8-A6DB-ED559EC4A048@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <54B62A6E.1050309@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-14 05:01, Zane Healy wrote: > > On Jan 13, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Well, it's been a long time project, but I'm happy to finally announce a more public initial release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. > > > >> I hope some people will find this useful/amusing. :-) > > I don't find it amusing, I find it amazingly cool! This is fantastic news! The HTTP server and LPR client sound especially interesting. Now we have a freely available TCP/IP stack for both RT-11 and RSX-11M-PLUS. I just wish there was one for RSTS/E, but as far as I know, it has never even had a commercial stack. Not that the LPR client actually talks PCL. I wanted to hook up a printer I have on my local network. So that is what it is geared towards. But it's written in C, so people should probably not find it to hard to modify. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 02:39:42 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 09:39:42 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B5F2CE.3050901@telegraphics.com.au> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <131FF12A-4703-49B8-A6DB-ED559EC4A048@aracnet.com> <54B5F2CE.3050901@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <54B62B4E.8080407@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-14 05:38, Toby Thain wrote: > On 13/01/15 11:01 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> On Jan 13, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> Well, it's been a long time project, but I'm happy to finally >>> announce a more public initial release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. >> >> >> >>> I hope some people will find this useful/amusing. :-) >> >> I don't find it amusing, I find it amazingly cool! This is fantastic >> news! The HTTP server and LPR client sound especially interesting. >> Now we have a freely available TCP/IP stack for both RT-11 and >> RSX-11M-PLUS. I just wish there was one for RSTS/E, but as far as I >> know, it has never even had a commercial stack. >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> > > > I agree, very impressive. > > You said that contributions are welcome, but the TCP/IP stack is binary > - will you be open sourcing it at any point? Well, my initial thinking was that there are so many tools, utilities, daemons and clients waiting to be written, as well as improving on the ones I've done, that I was hoping for contributions there. The stack itself can also be improved, I'm sure. It's just way more complex to modify, since that piece is device drivers in RSX. Any changes there needs to be done understanding the whole environment of it. But yes, I'm fine with getting the source to that part out too. But be warned. It will not be easy to work on it. In addition, the built system is less forgiving and less flexible. Can't promise that you'll be able to even built it with some fiddling of your own. I'll try and make a script to screate a source kit soon. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 02:44:07 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 09:44:07 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> Message-ID: <54B62C57.4060905@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-14 05:54, Mike Ross wrote: > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Well, it's been a long time project, but I'm happy to finally announce a >> more public initial release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. >> > > Amazing and very cool! Gives me immediate motivation to build an 11/70 with > one of my QED boardsets. Goal: webserver running proper DEC OS with proper > blinkenlights :-) Yes. We actually have that at Update, in form of a real PDP-11/70 with this code installed. However, the machine is down much of the time at the moment because of the cooling system needing to be fixed. (It's been this way for years, but we are making slow progress on it.) >> The TCP/IP stack itself only comes in binary form. >> > > Ahhh. That will give a lot of people pause for thought, and, some will > probably say, might be a distraction from the achievement itself. I trust > you know what you're doing :-) Well, you already have most of the sources, as everything except the device drivers comes with sources. But I'm going to make the last bits available as well, but it's not going to be super easy for someone to work on, or modify those parts. It will be more like a snapshot of my build system. And building the whole distribution takes about 1.5h on a real 11/93 with modern disks. But for people who actually wants to read several hundred K of MACRO-11... Here is your chance... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 14 08:21:32 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 09:21:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS Message-ID: <20150114142132.CA52D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > But for people who actually wants to read several hundred K of > MACRO-11... Here is your chance... :-) Ah. Was going to ask what the TCP/IP itself was written in. Well, at least it's an 8-bit machine - think about writing a TCP/IP in PDP-10 MACRO... :-) Noel From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jan 14 08:42:18 2015 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:42:18 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <20150114142132.CA52D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150114142132.CA52D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <706FF153-C0D0-4C44-969A-E5F846586CDA@softjar.se> jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu skrev: (14 januari 2015 15:21:32 CET) > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > But for people who actually wants to read several hundred K of > > MACRO-11... Here is your chance... :-) > >Ah. Was going to ask what the TCP/IP itself was written in. Well, at >least >it's an 8-bit machine - think about writing a TCP/IP in PDP-10 MACRO... >:-) Well, in all honesty - you also got gobs more memory on those big machines... And tcp/ip already exists. At least on TOPS-20. Johnny > > Noel -- Skickat fr?n min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Urs?kta min f?ordighet. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 14 09:01:29 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 07:01:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq Portable knob In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jan 2015, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here have a contrast knob from a Compaq Portable or good-looking > substitute? > If you can get me good reference pics and dimensions, I'd be happy to print you one. :) For those interested, I print a pretty mean ASR-33 platen knob as well. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Jan 14 09:03:19 2015 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:03:19 +0000 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <706FF153-C0D0-4C44-969A-E5F846586CDA@softjar.se> References: <20150114142132.CA52D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <706FF153-C0D0-4C44-969A-E5F846586CDA@softjar.se> Message-ID: On 14 January 2015 at 14:42, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > > Well, in all honesty - you also got gobs more memory on those big > machines... And tcp/ip already exists. At least on TOPS-20. > > Johnny > > Wow. What a cool project. Now if someone would just write one for RSTS/E (: -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 14 10:10:14 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 11:10:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> Message-ID: <201501141610.LAA21821@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Well, it's been a long time project, but I'm happy to finally > announce a more public initial release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. This is very impressive. Even for bqt@, this is very impressive. > If you happen to have an RSX system which you are conneting from, you > can also try getting the BQTCP.TAP tape image. Such an image will not > transport cleanly to a non-RSX system, however. I'm curious: why wouldn't it? Do the FTP client and server recognize one another, or is it more "will not transport cleanly to a system not implementing $OBSCURE_FTP_FEATURE", or what? > I hope some people will find this useful/amusing. :-) I won't find it useful personally, at least not in the near future; I'm not running RSX. And I wouldn't call it amusing. I'd call it other things, such as "impressive" or "awesome". I'm tempted to pick up the code just to read it over, as I'm sure there's a lot I could learn from it, but I doubt I'll have the leisure to indulge that inclination anytime soon. :-( /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Jan 14 10:55:54 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 17:55:54 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <20150114142132.CA52D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150114142132.CA52D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150114165554.GA27719@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 09:21:32AM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > But for people who actually wants to read several hundred K of > > MACRO-11... Here is your chance... :-) > > Ah. Was going to ask what the TCP/IP itself was written in. Well, at least > it's an 8-bit machine - think about writing a TCP/IP in PDP-10 MACRO... :-) > > Noel Do you mean to say that bytes are 8-bit wide on PDP-11? Why would PDP-10 be so much harder? /P From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 12:08:33 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 13:08:33 -0500 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 6:40 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: First of all, thank you, Johnny!! This project is a beautiful thing that I've personally been holding my breath waiting on since you announced you were starting work on it twenty years ago when I was still using pdp11s in my daily work. Your efforts here will likely result in my rededicating one of my unix pdp11s back to rsx. Documentation is still on the thin side, but example configs are also > provided, along with installation scripts. I can't get any of my things to read the .doc file. Any chance of a runoff or ascii version? I'll offer to do the reformatting work if it pleases you and would be viewed as helpful (assuming I find a way to read it). As to sources, if you decide to get it all out there, would it be cool if I put it on github? And, while at it, I hate to bring up silly stuff, but do you have a license in mind? Thank you _so_ much again! jake From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jan 14 12:13:56 2015 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 19:13:56 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> Message-ID: <8768BC65-003D-466F-84CC-28A57ED2F63E@softjar.se> The documentation is a plain ascii file. Generated from runoff. ? Jacob Ritorto skrev: (14 januari 2015 19:08:33 CET) >On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 6:40 PM, Johnny Billquist >wrote: > >First of all, thank you, Johnny!! This project is a beautiful thing >that >I've personally been holding my breath waiting on since you announced >you >were starting work on it twenty years ago when I was still using pdp11s >in >my daily work. Your efforts here will likely result in my rededicating >one >of my unix pdp11s back to rsx. > >Documentation is still on the thin side, but example configs are also >> provided, along with installation scripts. > > > I can't get any of my things to read the .doc file. Any chance of a >runoff or ascii version? I'll offer to do the reformatting work if it >pleases you and would be viewed as helpful (assuming I find a way to >read >it). > > >As to sources, if you decide to get it all out there, would it be cool >if >I put it on github? And, while at it, I hate to bring up silly stuff, >but >do you have a license in mind? > > >Thank you _so_ much again! > >jake -- Skickat fr?n min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Urs?kta min f?ordighet. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 14 13:02:55 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:02:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS Message-ID: <20150114190255.71DC418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > And tcp/ip already exists. At least on TOPS-20. There are at least two TCP/IP's for PDP-10's - the other, written by Ken Harrenstien, is the one for ITS. I'm not sure how closely related the TWENEX one is the TENEX one done at BBN - I vaguely seem to recall that DEC re-wrote it extensively, but I don't know much about that code. > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Do you mean to say that bytes are 8-bit wide on PDP-11? Why would > PDP-10 be so much harder?3 TCP/IP header fields are all multiples of 8 bits. So anytime you want to read/write one on a PDP-10, you have to start LDB'ing and DPB'ing through byte pointers/descriptors all over the place. Which I'm sure is no biggie for most experienced PDP-10 coders, but it would drive me bonkers. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 14 13:16:27 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:16:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] Message-ID: <20150114191627.1229E18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Robert Jarratt > It wouldn't be hard to create a wiki where this kind of information is > collected > ... > Isn't there someone on the list who has been offering lots of server > capacity? It could be hosted there. Umm, that might have been me - I have offered to host things on a number of occasions, and do in fact host the older ClassicComputers archives (the newer ones are^H^H^Hwere at www.classiccmp.org). I'm not sure I can help in this case, though. I do have access to a lot of space (so hosting the archives is not a big deal), _but_ i) I'm a guest on this machine, and hosting active content like a wiki would be something I'd have to get OK'd, and ii) technically, hosting a wiki is a whole different ball of wax from hosting static content (which I can just put in place, and forget), and I'm not sure I have the time/energy. If someone did, that would be great, because I think a wiki about restoring old computers would be a really powerful resource. Not for detailed technical content (as someone already pointed out, we have the manuals), but for: - Articles laying out how to start, where to get stuff, what you need to know (with lists of recommended books/etc in fields such as digital logic, etc, etc) - Articles on what tools/etc it's useful to to have, and recommendations for manufacturers, models etc (e.g. an oscilloscope is pretty much a must), and where to find them cheap - Lists of which systems are good targets (because they're easy to find, have good documentation available, parts availability is good, etc, etc) - Articles on specific topics which aren't covered in literature (e.g. the whole discussion about capacitor reforming; the heat soak for old tapes/floppies, etc) - Etc, etc, etc. All stuff that's not really written down anywhere, but which a beginning collector (especially one who didn't work on these things 'back in the day') would find invaluable. Noel From scaron at umich.edu Wed Jan 14 13:23:41 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:23:41 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <20150114191627.1229E18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150114191627.1229E18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: This, too, is something I'd be willing potentially to host gratis, given the same caveats that I offered Alexandre... I have Comcast business grade cable Internet to my home and I'm already hosting my own personal site and sites for a few other folks; no data caps; plenty of static IPs; not terribly slow; everything's protected with a Liebert double-conversion UPS... not totally a commercial datacenter in terms of available bandwidth or backup power capacity but nevertheless my uptimes are decent. I wouldn't have a problem supporting Mediawiki or common back-end technologies in general i.e. PHP, MySQL... I can host DNS if someone wanted to get a domain name for it... E-mail. Full service in-house, LOL. Just throwing it out here. Happy to share the extra capacity I've got for projects german to classic computing or telephony. Best, Sean On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Robert Jarratt > > > It wouldn't be hard to create a wiki where this kind of information > is > > collected > > ... > > Isn't there someone on the list who has been offering lots of server > > capacity? It could be hosted there. > > Umm, that might have been me - I have offered to host things on a number of > occasions, and do in fact host the older ClassicComputers archives (the > newer > ones are^H^H^Hwere at www.classiccmp.org). > > I'm not sure I can help in this case, though. I do have access to a lot of > space (so hosting the archives is not a big deal), _but_ i) I'm a guest on > this machine, and hosting active content like a wiki would be something I'd > have to get OK'd, and ii) technically, hosting a wiki is a whole different > ball of wax from hosting static content (which I can just put in place, and > forget), and I'm not sure I have the time/energy. > > > If someone did, that would be great, because I think a wiki about restoring > old computers would be a really powerful resource. Not for detailed > technical > content (as someone already pointed out, we have the manuals), but for: > > - Articles laying out how to start, where to get stuff, what you need to > know (with lists of recommended books/etc in fields such as digital > logic, etc, etc) > - Articles on what tools/etc it's useful to to have, and recommendations > for > manufacturers, models etc (e.g. an oscilloscope is pretty much a > must), and where to find them cheap > - Lists of which systems are good targets (because they're easy to find, > have good documentation available, parts availability is good, > etc, etc) > - Articles on specific topics which aren't covered in literature (e.g. the > whole discussion about capacitor reforming; the heat soak for old > tapes/floppies, etc) > - Etc, etc, etc. > > All stuff that's not really written down anywhere, but which a beginning > collector (especially one who didn't work on these things 'back in the > day') > would find invaluable. > > Noel > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 14 13:33:41 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:33:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] Message-ID: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Sean Caron > This, too, is something I'd be willing potentially to host gratis, > given the same caveats that I offered Alexandre... Please do! I will volunteer to start contributing content as soon as it's up. > not totally a commercial datacenter in terms of available bandwidth I can't imagine a wiki on the topic of classic computers would draw _that_ much traffic? :-) > I wouldn't have a problem supporting Mediawiki or common back-end > technologies in general i.e. PHP, MySQL... Please get yourself totally up to speed to run a wiki, then! :-) > I can host DNS if someone wanted to get a domain name for it... Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it "wiki.classiccmp.org"? Pick out one of your statics, let Jay know it, and if he can update the DNS config file for the classiccmp.org zone we're done! Noel From scaron at umich.edu Wed Jan 14 13:37:24 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:37:24 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Oh, yeah, good point; we can just piggyback off of *.classiccmp.org. I work with MediaWiki all the time at the office... I'll try to sit down when I get home tonight and spin up a little virtual host for it. Ask and you shall receive :) Best, Sean On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Sean Caron > > > This, too, is something I'd be willing potentially to host gratis, > > given the same caveats that I offered Alexandre... > > Please do! I will volunteer to start contributing content as soon as it's > up. > > > not totally a commercial datacenter in terms of available bandwidth > > I can't imagine a wiki on the topic of classic computers would draw _that_ > much traffic? :-) > > > I wouldn't have a problem supporting Mediawiki or common back-end > > technologies in general i.e. PHP, MySQL... > > Please get yourself totally up to speed to run a wiki, then! :-) > > > I can host DNS if someone wanted to get a domain name for it... > > Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it "wiki.classiccmp.org"? > Pick > out one of your statics, let Jay know it, and if he can update the DNS > config > file for the classiccmp.org zone we're done! > > Noel > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 14 13:42:18 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 19:42:18 +0000 Subject: Restoring a Compaq Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > 3) I can't get the keyboard to respond at all. I tried touching the > capacitive pads with bare fingers, anti-static bag material, etc. > Nothing works. Solution: I don't know. I suspect the scan driver and/or > the sense amp chips may be bad. These are Exar 22-950-3B (sense driver) > and 22-908-93A (sense amp). Does anyone here know a decent source of > these and/or data sheets? These seem to be custom ICs used in most Keytronics keyboards. Your best bet is to find another keyboard to raid if you are _sure_ they are the problem. I have never seen data sheets for them. Many machines used such keyboards. The TRS-80 Model 2 (TechRef available from archive.org) did, there is a schematic of the keyboard in said manual, but with no real data on the ICs. The driver takes in a 4 bit value (to select a 'column' and a strobe pulse, the sense amplifier outputs 8 bits for the selected rows. Given the TRS-80 M2 diagram it should be possible to see if the column select value and strobe are doing anything (if not, then the keyboard microcontroller isn't running, I guess), if there is any activity on the column outputs, and if there is any activity on the sense amplifier outputs when you simulate a keypress. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 14 13:47:21 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 11:47:21 -0800 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> On 1/14/15 11:33 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it "wiki.classiccmp.org"? There are significant system security issues around hosting wikis. I'd talk to Jay directly before suggesting classiccmp host one. As far as I know, there are no machines in the classiccmp.org domain that are not hosted by Jay. From scaron at umich.edu Wed Jan 14 14:05:05 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:05:05 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The Wiki would be hosted directly on one of my personal machines; the only thing relating it to classiccmp.org would be an A record in DNS. Please explain what significant system security issues you believe follow from hosting a MediaWiki? I wrangle many of them so I'm always interested in hearing criticism of the software. Best, Sean On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/14/15 11:33 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it "wiki.classiccmp.org"? >> > > There are significant system security issues around hosting wikis. I'd > talk to Jay directly before suggesting classiccmp host one. > > As far as I know, there are no machines in the classiccmp.org domain that > are not hosted by Jay. > > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 14:18:05 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:18:05 -0600 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <002101d03037$3515a590$9f40f0b0$@classiccmp.org> Someone wrote.... > Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it "wiki.classiccmp.org"? To which AEK replied... ----- There are significant system security issues around hosting wikis. I'd talk to Jay directly before suggesting classiccmp host one. As far as I know, there are no machines in the classiccmp.org domain that are not hosted by Jay. ----- I own the domain, and no, there are no machines in that domain that I don't host. I will post to the list shortly re-iterating how to get free hosting for any and all web content. Best, Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 14:30:12 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:30:12 -0600 Subject: Free hosting for all classiccmp sites Message-ID: <004901d03038$e68cbfb0$b3a63f10$@classiccmp.org> Sean wrote.... ------------ I have Comcast business grade cable Internet to my home and I'm already hosting my own personal site and sites for a few other folks; no data caps; plenty of static IPs; not terribly slow; everything's protected with a Liebert double-conversion UPS... not totally a commercial datacenter in terms of available bandwidth or backup power capacity but nevertheless my uptimes are decent. ------------ I have said many times in the past, but as new list members pop on they are probably not aware of this. I host the classiccmp server (which is not just the classiccmp mailing list, but a growing truckload of user websites that are classiccmp related) gratis. I do not host it on a "Comcast business grade cable internet" connection (there's a contradiction in terms in and of itself...) This is not something I "run out of my home". One of the companies that I own is a hosting provider. We have a rather large-ish datacenter and I have dedicated a set of resources to classiccmp. Our bandwidth is many orders of magnitude greater than a "home or business connection". Not to mention, it's managed bandwidth with load balanced connections to multiple carriers. Our infrastructure is all xenserver based, so spinning up new VM's is a mouseclick. We have quite a few SAN's so storage is not a problem at all. Full HVAC monitoring & control, power backups (oh, and we have two separate powerstations from Ameren UE ON SITE). This infrastructure is professionally managed by my company 24x7. Long story short... it's not a "home" connection. More to the point, since I own the company, rest assured that hosting your site here is not a "till the boss finds out" or "my wife accidentally turned off the computer" type of situation. As a result - I'm happy to host any website, ftp site, wiki, etc. etc. that is classic computer related. As long as it meets that criteria, you can host your site with us for no charge. Best, J From scaron at umich.edu Wed Jan 14 14:24:29 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:24:29 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <002101d03037$3515a590$9f40f0b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <002101d03037$3515a590$9f40f0b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Hey, if you want to monopolize hosting anything under *.classiccmp.org, I assume that's your domain so that's certainly your right. Won't keep me from offering my services to the public, though. Maybe I could just register a new domain, classcmpwiki.org or something and we could all use that. Best, Sean On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Jay West wrote: > Someone wrote.... > > Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it "wiki.classiccmp.org"? > > To which AEK replied... > ----- > There are significant system security issues around hosting wikis. I'd talk > to Jay directly before suggesting classiccmp host one. > > As far as I know, there are no machines in the classiccmp.org domain that > are not hosted by Jay. > ----- > > I own the domain, and no, there are no machines in that domain that I don't > host. > > I will post to the list shortly re-iterating how to get free hosting for > any > and all web content. > > Best, > > Jay > > > > > > From scaron at umich.edu Wed Jan 14 14:27:11 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:27:11 -0500 Subject: Free hosting for all classiccmp sites In-Reply-To: <004901d03038$e68cbfb0$b3a63f10$@classiccmp.org> References: <004901d03038$e68cbfb0$b3a63f10$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: C-l-a-s-s-y. Best, Sean On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Jay West wrote: > > Sean wrote.... > ------------ > I have Comcast business grade cable Internet to my home and I'm already > hosting my own personal site and sites for a few other folks; no data caps; > plenty of static IPs; not terribly slow; everything's protected with a > Liebert double-conversion UPS... not totally a commercial datacenter in > terms of available bandwidth or backup power capacity but nevertheless my > uptimes are decent. > ------------ > > I have said many times in the past, but as new list members pop on they > are probably not aware of this. > > I host the classiccmp server (which is not just the classiccmp mailing > list, but a growing truckload of user websites that are classiccmp related) > gratis. I do not host it on a "Comcast business grade cable internet" > connection (there's a contradiction in terms in and of itself...) > > This is not something I "run out of my home". One of the companies that I > own is a hosting provider. We have a rather large-ish datacenter and I have > dedicated a set of resources to classiccmp. > > Our bandwidth is many orders of magnitude greater than a "home or business > connection". Not to mention, it's managed bandwidth with load balanced > connections to multiple carriers. Our infrastructure is all xenserver > based, so spinning up new VM's is a mouseclick. We have quite a few SAN's > so storage is not a problem at all. Full HVAC monitoring & control, power > backups (oh, and we have two separate powerstations from Ameren UE ON > SITE). This infrastructure is professionally managed by my company 24x7. > Long story short... it's not a "home" connection. > > More to the point, since I own the company, rest assured that hosting your > site here is not a "till the boss finds out" or "my wife accidentally > turned off the computer" type of situation. > > As a result - I'm happy to host any website, ftp site, wiki, etc. etc. > that is classic computer related. As long as it meets that criteria, you > can host your site with us for no charge. > > Best, > > J > > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 14:42:34 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:42:34 -0600 Subject: Knowledge Base (was RE: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] Message-ID: <004a01d0303a$a11eefa0$e35ccee0$@classiccmp.org> So.. about this "knowledgebase" of restoration techniques. Apparently new folks don't know and some older listmembers don't remember... We did start a "wiki" for people to post restoration tips, repair tips, etc. This was done about 8 years ago. When I first brought up the idea there was a lot of discussion on the list as to if it was a good idea or not. Many people had very good thoughts as to why it would be wonderful, and many other people had equally good thoughts as to why it would not be wonderful. In any case, I set it up. We found that there was an initial flurry of posting, and then virtually nothing. Statistics showed it was not used very much at all. There were a handful of issues as I recall (not my implementation of it, but in the general idea of a repair/troubleshooting/restoration "wiki"). I only remember one of them at the moment... and that was that someone would post an article without really having detailed expertise in that given area and then someone that DID have expertise in that area would (for lack of a better term) contramand that article or write a separate one with conflicting info which made it hard for a novice to really sift through the information. In short, everyone has an opinion and at times the articles directly conflicted with another and someone seeking knowledge wouldn't know who to believe. That being said, if people really want to give this another try, I would be happy to turn on the old classiccmp knowledge base (I'm 99% sure it's stored but just not turned on), or I could easily have one of my support staff dump a wiki installation to a folder there (under classiccmp) and we could give it a try again. I'm all for it, but for it to be successful - it has to be due to contribution/acceptance by the membership at large. My proclivity at this point would be to install a new wiki and then pull articles already posted in the old "wiki" into it. And yes, if it's to be in the classiccmp.org domain, I'd have to host it. I have not yet seen a scenario where we'd be willing to point an a-record off-site (but that's not to say some future situation might get a different response). Best, J From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 14:53:46 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:53:46 -0600 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> Sean wrote... Please explain what significant system security issues you believe follow from hosting a MediaWiki? I wrangle many of them so I'm always interested in hearing criticism of the software. ------ how about google "Mediawiki security vulnerabilities". Most anyone that even touches mediawiki in a cursory fashion is aware there are frequent issues with it. Better yet, go to CVE and see the current list of exploits? We do host hundreds of mediawiki sites, so we're up on the issues and how to prevent them. It helps to have a staff dedicated to this. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 15:01:01 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:01:01 -0600 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <002101d03037$3515a590$9f40f0b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <009501d0303d$346d21d0$9d476570$@classiccmp.org> Sean wrote... Hey, if you want to monopolize hosting anything under *.classiccmp.org, I assume that's your domain so that's certainly your right. Won't keep me from offering my services to the public, though. Maybe I could just register a new domain, classcmpwiki.org or something and we could all use that. ------ O.O Monopolizing my own domain? This is not a response I'd expect for a service I provide gratis. But regardless, you are certainly free to monopolize your domain, servers, and bandwidth. Wish the sentiment was bidirectional. But let me be clear... I fully support you offering (free) hosting services for vintage computer stuff. I am glad there are people out there besides just me willing to host classic computer related sites. I will also continue to offer commercial grade hosting to any classic computer related website for free. I do think it's a nice benefit that many of the classic computer related repositories (bitsavers, cpmarchive, trs80, etc) are hosting on the classiccmp server where they are all backed up together and such. J From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 15:16:27 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:16:27 -0700 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <009501d0303d$346d21d0$9d476570$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <002101d03037$3515a590$9f40f0b0$@classiccmp.org> <009501d0303d$346d21d0$9d476570$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Jay West wrote: > I will also continue to offer commercial grade hosting to any classic computer related website for free. I do think it's a nice benefit that many of the classic computer related repositories (bitsavers, cpmarchive, trs80, etc) are hosting on the classiccmp server where they are all backed up together and such. Yes it is! Thank you *very* much for providing so much support to the community all these years! From scaron at umich.edu Wed Jan 14 15:18:24 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:18:24 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is to make people think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite effect. I mean, using your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist offering to help another hobbyist, wow, impressive. If you really want to crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from scratch and your staff, or even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it? Best, Sean On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Jay West wrote: > Sean wrote... > Please explain what significant system security issues you believe follow > from hosting a MediaWiki? I wrangle many of them so I'm always interested > in hearing criticism of the software. > ------ > > how about google "Mediawiki security vulnerabilities". Most anyone that > even touches mediawiki in a cursory fashion is aware there are frequent > issues with it. > > Better yet, go to CVE and see the current list of exploits? > > We do host hundreds of mediawiki sites, so we're up on the issues and how > to prevent them. It helps to have a staff dedicated to this. > > J > > > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 15:24:37 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 19:24:37 -0200 Subject: Free hosting for all classiccmp sites In-Reply-To: <004901d03038$e68cbfb0$b3a63f10$@classiccmp.org> References: <004901d03038$e68cbfb0$b3a63f10$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Still waiting for your hosting answer :) enviado do meu telemovel Em 14/01/2015 18:21, "Jay West" escreveu: > > Sean wrote.... > ------------ > I have Comcast business grade cable Internet to my home and I'm already > hosting my own personal site and sites for a few other folks; no data caps; > plenty of static IPs; not terribly slow; everything's protected with a > Liebert double-conversion UPS... not totally a commercial datacenter in > terms of available bandwidth or backup power capacity but nevertheless my > uptimes are decent. > ------------ > > I have said many times in the past, but as new list members pop on they > are probably not aware of this. > > I host the classiccmp server (which is not just the classiccmp mailing > list, but a growing truckload of user websites that are classiccmp related) > gratis. I do not host it on a "Comcast business grade cable internet" > connection (there's a contradiction in terms in and of itself...) > > This is not something I "run out of my home". One of the companies that I > own is a hosting provider. We have a rather large-ish datacenter and I have > dedicated a set of resources to classiccmp. > > Our bandwidth is many orders of magnitude greater than a "home or business > connection". Not to mention, it's managed bandwidth with load balanced > connections to multiple carriers. Our infrastructure is all xenserver > based, so spinning up new VM's is a mouseclick. We have quite a few SAN's > so storage is not a problem at all. Full HVAC monitoring & control, power > backups (oh, and we have two separate powerstations from Ameren UE ON > SITE). This infrastructure is professionally managed by my company 24x7. > Long story short... it's not a "home" connection. > > More to the point, since I own the company, rest assured that hosting your > site here is not a "till the boss finds out" or "my wife accidentally > turned off the computer" type of situation. > > As a result - I'm happy to host any website, ftp site, wiki, etc. etc. > that is classic computer related. As long as it meets that criteria, you > can host your site with us for no charge. > > Best, > > J > > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 15:34:12 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:34:12 -0600 Subject: front panel LED help sought Message-ID: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> Yep, I'm still working on "restoration" of the Microdata Reality. I say "restoration", because due to another restoration project that actually has a deadline, I only have time to clean up the microdata and repair just obvious visual brokenness, not actually start testing/repairing it electronically. That will come after the "deadline project" J As most know, schematics and detailed documentation are nonexistent for this machine. I've done the rack, the disc drive, the tape drive, and the power supply. On to the last item, the front panel. Virtually all of the LED's on the front panel board had so much mouse pee that the leads on the LEDS actually corroded through, so I need to replace them all. Without schematics, can anyone suggest how I might go about determining a suitable replacement LED from an electrical perspective? Pictures at www.ezwind.net/microdata/restoration Best, J From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 15:28:01 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 19:28:01 -0200 Subject: front panel LED help sought Message-ID: Jay, leds hasn't changed much from years ago. Electronicaly, i believe any led of same size/format/color will fit. Of course i can dig deeper if you want enviado do meu telemovel Em 14/01/2015 19:25, "Jay West" escreveu: Yep, I'm still working on "restoration" of the Microdata Reality. I say "restoration", because due to another restoration project that actually has a deadline, I only have time to clean up the microdata and repair just obvious visual brokenness, not actually start testing/repairing it electronically. That will come after the "deadline project" J As most know, schematics and detailed documentation are nonexistent for this machine. I've done the rack, the disc drive, the tape drive, and the power supply. On to the last item, the front panel. Virtually all of the LED's on the front panel board had so much mouse pee that the leads on the LEDS actually corroded through, so I need to replace them all. Without schematics, can anyone suggest how I might go about determining a suitable replacement LED from an electrical perspective? Pictures at www.ezwind.net/microdata/restoration Best, J From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 15:37:43 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:37:43 -0600 Subject: Free hosting for all classiccmp sites In-Reply-To: References: <004901d03038$e68cbfb0$b3a63f10$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00c701d03042$54edcdb0$fec96910$@classiccmp.org> Alexandre: I did get your email at 7:15pm last night. The space for you content is being set up today, I'd expect it to be ready tonight/tomorrow. Give me a day to respond man ;) Best, J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 3:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Free hosting for all classiccmp sites Still waiting for your hosting answer :) enviado do meu telemovel Em 14/01/2015 18:21, "Jay West" escreveu: > > Sean wrote.... > ------------ > I have Comcast business grade cable Internet to my home and I'm > already hosting my own personal site and sites for a few other folks; > no data caps; plenty of static IPs; not terribly slow; everything's > protected with a Liebert double-conversion UPS... not totally a > commercial datacenter in terms of available bandwidth or backup power > capacity but nevertheless my uptimes are decent. > ------------ > > I have said many times in the past, but as new list members pop on > they are probably not aware of this. > > I host the classiccmp server (which is not just the classiccmp mailing > list, but a growing truckload of user websites that are classiccmp > related) gratis. I do not host it on a "Comcast business grade cable internet" > connection (there's a contradiction in terms in and of itself...) > > This is not something I "run out of my home". One of the companies > that I own is a hosting provider. We have a rather large-ish > datacenter and I have dedicated a set of resources to classiccmp. > > Our bandwidth is many orders of magnitude greater than a "home or > business connection". Not to mention, it's managed bandwidth with load > balanced connections to multiple carriers. Our infrastructure is all > xenserver based, so spinning up new VM's is a mouseclick. We have > quite a few SAN's so storage is not a problem at all. Full HVAC > monitoring & control, power backups (oh, and we have two separate > powerstations from Ameren UE ON SITE). This infrastructure is professionally managed by my company 24x7. > Long story short... it's not a "home" connection. > > More to the point, since I own the company, rest assured that hosting > your site here is not a "till the boss finds out" or "my wife > accidentally turned off the computer" type of situation. > > As a result - I'm happy to host any website, ftp site, wiki, etc. etc. > that is classic computer related. As long as it meets that criteria, > you can host your site with us for no charge. > > Best, > > J > > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 15:40:24 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:40:24 -0600 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> Sean wrote.... ---- You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is to make people think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite effect. I mean, using your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist offering to help another hobbyist, wow, impressive. If you really want to crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from scratch and your staff, or even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it? ---- Someone is accusing ME of trying to blow away or crush a classic computer hobbyist? That's just.... wow. You MUST be new here. *PLONK* From js at cimmeri.com Wed Jan 14 15:35:37 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:35:37 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here. On 1/14/2015 4:40 PM, Jay West wrote: > Sean wrote.... > ---- > You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is to make people think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite effect. I mean, using your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist offering to help another hobbyist, wow, impressive. If you really want to crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from scratch and your staff, or even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it? > ---- > > Someone is accusing ME of trying to blow away or crush a classic computer hobbyist? That's just.... wow. You MUST be new here. > > *PLONK* > > > > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 15:42:40 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:42:40 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: it is the sound of something (or someone) bouncing off the bottom of the bit bucket. alas, needless carnage. On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 4:35 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here. > > > > On 1/14/2015 4:40 PM, Jay West wrote: > >> Sean wrote.... >> ---- >> You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is to >> make people think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite >> effect. I mean, using your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist >> offering to help another hobbyist, wow, impressive. If you really want to >> crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from scratch and your staff, or >> even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it? >> ---- >> >> Someone is accusing ME of trying to blow away or crush a classic computer >> hobbyist? That's just.... wow. You MUST be new here. >> >> *PLONK* >> >> >> >> >> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 14 15:42:14 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:42:14 +0000 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> References: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > Virtually all of the LED's on the front panel board had so much mouse pee > that the leads on the LEDS actually corroded through, so I need to replace > them all. > > > > Without schematics, can anyone suggest how I might go about determining a > suitable replacement LED from an electrical perspective? Long answer : Trace out the circuit for one LED and its driver. Most of the time such LEDs have a series resistor. The +ve side of the combination goes to a supply line, the -ve side to the collector of a driver transistor, the emitter of which is grounded (this may be an open-collector gate like a 7406 or 7407). From that you can estimate the voltage across the LED+resistor (= supply voltage - saturation voltage of the driver transistor (say 0.5V)). Then the current through the thing is (that voltage - forward voltage of LED)/series resistor. Substitute the forward voltage of some possible replacement LEDs and see if the current is sensible (compare to the maximum current on that LED's data sheet). Short answer : Go and get some standard (not high brightness, high efficiency, or anything fancy like that) red 0.2" (5mm, whatever) LEDs. Solder them in. I will bet it will work fine. -tony From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 14 15:48:51 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:48:51 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54B6E443.4050005@sbcglobal.net> On 01/14/2015 04:18 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is to > make people think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite > effect. I mean, using your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist > offering to help another hobbyist, wow, impressive. If you really want to > crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from scratch and your staff, or > even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it? > > Best, > > Sean Sean, what is your beef? Jay is just trying to be a nice guy. And he usually succeeds. However, you are coming across as an a-hole. > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Jay West wrote: > >> Sean wrote... >> Please explain what significant system security issues you believe follow >> from hosting a MediaWiki? I wrangle many of them so I'm always interested >> in hearing criticism of the software. >> ------ >> >> how about google "Mediawiki security vulnerabilities". Most anyone that >> even touches mediawiki in a cursory fashion is aware there are frequent >> issues with it. >> >> Better yet, go to CVE and see the current list of exploits? >> >> We do host hundreds of mediawiki sites, so we're up on the issues and how >> to prevent them. It helps to have a staff dedicated to this. >> >> J -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 14 15:50:15 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:50:15 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54B6E497.7050306@sbcglobal.net> On 01/14/2015 04:40 PM, Jay West wrote: > Sean wrote.... > ---- > You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is to make people think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite effect. I mean, using your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist offering to help another hobbyist, wow, impressive. If you really want to crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from scratch and your staff, or even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it? > ---- > > Someone is accusing ME of trying to blow away or crush a classic computer hobbyist? That's just.... wow. You MUST be new here. That's what I was thinking.... > *PLONK* > > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 14 15:49:38 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:49:38 +0000 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> References: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > Without schematics, can anyone suggest how I might go about determining a > suitable replacement LED from an electrical perspective? Or, if you can find even one working LED on the original panel, remove it and connected it (correct way round) with a 330 Ohm or 470 Ohm (or so) resistor in series to an adjustable bench supply. Turn up the supply until the LED is glowing at what you consider to be normal brightness (this will be 5-10V I would guess). Now measure the voltage across the LED itself and the current through it (or deduce the latter from the voltage across the series resistor and the known value of that resistor). Try to find an LED that matches those values for forward voltage and operating current. Or as I said, just stick in standard red LEDs. I've replaced LEDs many times without thinking what I am fitting. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 14 15:51:34 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 13:51:34 -0800 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <54B6E4E6.9000707@bitsavers.org> On 1/14/15 1:35 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here. > From USENET. The sound of a message hitting the trash can, normally implying any further messages from the sender will receive the same treatment. From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 15:54:29 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 22:54:29 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: <20150114142132.CA52D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <706FF153-C0D0-4C44-969A-E5F846586CDA@softjar.se> Message-ID: <54B6E595.8090606@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-14 16:03, John Many Jars wrote: > On 14 January 2015 at 14:42, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> Well, in all honesty - you also got gobs more memory on those big >> machines... And tcp/ip already exists. At least on TOPS-20. >> >> Johnny >> > Wow. What a cool project. Now if someone would just write one for RSTS/E > (: I'll leave that to someone else. While I know of one person who started such a project, I don't know of anyone who have finished it. And I don't know how feasible it would be to do under RSTS/E. I played with lots of tricks and used a lot of RSX capabilities to manage it in my case, and it will not run on plain 11M. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 16:03:53 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:03:53 -0600 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: References: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <014201d03045$fc79ecf0$f56dc6d0$@classiccmp.org> Tony wrote... Or, if you can find even one working LED on the original panel, remove it and connected {snip} That is probably the way I'll go. Thanks (as always) Tony!!! J From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 14 15:56:52 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 13:56:52 -0800 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54B6E624.9070608@bitsavers.org> On 1/14/15 1:40 PM, Jay West wrote: > If the impression of these statements is to make people think you're a big guy Jay IS a big guy, and has spent a lot of his own resources doing things like supporting compute and bandwidth requirements of bitsavers, which are non-trival, which I am grateful for after the original spies.com host downsized in the early '00s. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 16:08:27 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:08:27 -0600 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <015901d03046$a02b2350$e08169f0$@classiccmp.org> JS wrote... What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here. ------ So... is that "You don't know", or.. "You do know and you're commenting about it being seen HERE an unusually large amount" *GRIN* In the context in which I meant it..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_%28Usenet%29 J From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 16:01:55 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 23:01:55 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <201501141610.LAA21821@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <201501141610.LAA21821@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <54B6E753.7030802@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-14 17:10, Mouse wrote: >> Well, it's been a long time project, but I'm happy to finally >> announce a more public initial release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. > > This is very impressive. Even for bqt@, this is very impressive. Thanks. >> If you happen to have an RSX system which you are conneting from, you >> can also try getting the BQTCP.TAP tape image. Such an image will not >> transport cleanly to a non-RSX system, however. > > I'm curious: why wouldn't it? Do the FTP client and server recognize > one another, or is it more "will not transport cleanly to a system not > implementing $OBSCURE_FTP_FEATURE", or what? Nah. The problem is simpler than that. It all relates to the fact that files under RSX are very different than under Unix. File in RSX are organized in different ways. And virtual tapes are of variable sized records. So, how would I communicate that across FTP? And the actual length of those records? Essentially any binary file under RSX cannot be transferred over FTP, with a couple of exceptions: Fixed length record files under RSX will transfer all the content of the file over the link. You will of course not know what the record length was, but that you could reconstruct after the fact. Binary files where the record lengths are irrelevant. These will also work just fine. When the FTP client under RSX talks to another RSX machines FTP server, it detects this fact, and do transfer a bunch of metadata about the file in addition to the actual file content, so that all stuff gets preserved. This also means that you can FTP indexed files over FTP between RSX machines. I have a plan to extend this to also work against VMS machines. I just need a little more time. >> I hope some people will find this useful/amusing. :-) > > I won't find it useful personally, at least not in the near future; I'm > not running RSX. And I wouldn't call it amusing. I'd call it other > things, such as "impressive" or "awesome". I'm tempted to pick up the > code just to read it over, as I'm sure there's a lot I could learn from > it, but I doubt I'll have the leisure to indulge that inclination > anytime soon. :-( It will take a lot of time to browse through the thing. The basic ARP, IP, UDP, TCP, and a couple of tools alone are about 500K of MACRO-11. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 14 16:07:16 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:07:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <20150114140134.U70444@shell.lmi.net> > What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing > that here. If the current flamewar over hosting continues, I will drink a box of plonk. From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 16:08:23 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 23:08:23 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <20150114165554.GA27719@Update.UU.SE> References: <20150114142132.CA52D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20150114165554.GA27719@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <54B6E8D7.6070409@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-14 17:55, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 09:21:32AM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Johnny Billquist >> >> > But for people who actually wants to read several hundred K of >> > MACRO-11... Here is your chance... :-) >> >> Ah. Was going to ask what the TCP/IP itself was written in. Well, at least >> it's an 8-bit machine - think about writing a TCP/IP in PDP-10 MACRO... :-) >> >> Noel > > Do you mean to say that bytes are 8-bit wide on PDP-11? Why > would PDP-10 be so much harder? There are lots of things that becomes complex and/or odd when you are on a machine with a word size that is not evenly divisible by 8. You need to manipulate bitfields inside a word, and depending on how things work, you might either span word boundaries, placing half of an octet in one word and the other half in the second, or else have four extra bits sitting around that you should ignore in every word. All arithmetic are done on 16- or 32-bit quantities, which you must take into consideration. The IP checksum is an odd beast that do ones complement addition. So spillover from the 16-bit additions are added back at the bottom. Everything is of course doable, but there will be a whole lot of bit fiddling and juggling doing TCP/IP on a PDP-10. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 16:15:29 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 23:15:29 +0100 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <54B6EA81.1000900@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-14 22:35, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here. It means people put you in their spam filters so they don't have to see any mails/posts from you any more. Johnny > > > On 1/14/2015 4:40 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Sean wrote.... >> ---- >> You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is >> to make people think you're a big guy, I think they're having the >> opposite effect. I mean, using your personal resources to blow away a >> hobbyist offering to help another hobbyist, wow, impressive. If you >> really want to crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from scratch >> and your staff, or even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. >> Up for it? >> ---- >> >> Someone is accusing ME of trying to blow away or crush a classic >> computer hobbyist? That's just.... wow. You MUST be new here. >> >> *PLONK* >> >> >> >> -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 14 16:21:49 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 17:21:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B6E753.7030802@update.uu.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <201501141610.LAA21821@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54B6E753.7030802@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201501142221.RAA13355@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> If you happen to have an RSX system which you are conneting from, >>> you can also try getting the BQTCP.TAP tape image. Such an image >>> will not transport cleanly to a non-RSX system, however. >> I'm curious: why wouldn't it? [...] > Nah. The problem is simpler than that. It all relates to the fact > that files under RSX are very different than under Unix. File in RSX > are organized in different ways. And virtual tapes are of variable > sized records. So, how would I communicate that across FTP? And the > actual length of those records? FTP has a lot of capabilities many people are totally unaware of; see RFC 959. (Admittedly, depressingly many people are unaware FTP even _exists_....) For what you sketch, I'd suggest record structure (STRU R) and block mode (MODE B). > Essentially any binary file under RSX cannot be transferred over FTP, > [...] Sounds to me as though the truth is more like, cannot be transferred to or from typical "everything is a bag of bytes" Unix-mindset FTP implementations. Unless there's something particularly arcane you haven't hinted at, I don't see anything that would prevent transferring them over standard FTP, given a server and client that actually understand that FTP is more than a bag-of-bytes transfer tool. >> I'm tempted to pick up the code just to read it over, as I'm sure >> there's a lot I could learn from it, but I doubt I'll have the >> leisure to indulge that inclination anytime soon. :-( > It will take a lot of time to browse through the thing. The basic > ARP, IP, UDP, TCP, and a couple of tools alone are about 500K of > MACRO-11. I'm not surprised. It will definitely be a while until I have the leisure to give it a read-through. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jan 14 16:24:06 2015 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 17:24:06 -0500 Subject: Dan Tumey Message-ID: <059801d03048$cf789870$6e69c950$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Is he on this list? The University of Iowa's PDP-8 restoration site says he is producing beautiful replacement Teletype hammer pads: http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/UI-8/log.shtml I'd love to get a few for my tty. Bill S. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 14 16:25:34 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 22:25:34 -0000 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: References: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <021201d03049$03e26960$0ba73c20$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 14 January 2015 21:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: front panel LED help sought > > > > > Without schematics, can anyone suggest how I might go about > > determining a suitable replacement LED from an electrical perspective? > > Or, if you can find even one working LED on the original panel, remove it and > connected it (correct way round) with a 330 Ohm or 470 Ohm (or so) resistor in > series to an adjustable bench supply. Turn up the supply until the LED is glowing > at what you consider to be normal brightness (this will be 5-10V I would guess). > Now measure the voltage across the LED itself and the current through it (or > deduce the latter from the voltage across the series resistor and the known > value of that resistor). Try to find an LED that matches those values for forward > voltage and operating current. > > Or as I said, just stick in standard red LEDs. I've replaced LEDs many times > without thinking what I am fitting. "without thinking" is that an impostor pretending to be Tony? :-) :-) Regards Rob From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 16:30:32 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 23:30:32 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <201501142221.RAA13355@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <201501141610.LAA21821@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54B6E753.7030802@update.uu.se> <201501142221.RAA13355@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <54B6EE08.3060509@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-14 23:21, Mouse wrote: >>>> If you happen to have an RSX system which you are conneting from, >>>> you can also try getting the BQTCP.TAP tape image. Such an image >>>> will not transport cleanly to a non-RSX system, however. >>> I'm curious: why wouldn't it? [...] >> Nah. The problem is simpler than that. It all relates to the fact >> that files under RSX are very different than under Unix. File in RSX >> are organized in different ways. And virtual tapes are of variable >> sized records. So, how would I communicate that across FTP? And the >> actual length of those records? > > FTP has a lot of capabilities many people are totally unaware of; see > RFC 959. (Admittedly, depressingly many people are unaware FTP even > _exists_....) For what you sketch, I'd suggest record structure > (STRU R) and block mode (MODE B). Oh how I wish. Have you tried giving those command in an ftp client under Unix? :-) Essentially, for transfer to/from Unix systems, you are stuck with STRU F, MODE S Since the struct and mode abilities in the FTP protocol will not easily cover enough anyway, I decided to do a similar trick I noticed VMS is doing. So I support a "STRU O RSX" command, will will enable the extra bells and whistles needed to transfer files properly between RSX systems. >> Essentially any binary file under RSX cannot be transferred over FTP, >> [...] > > Sounds to me as though the truth is more like, cannot be transferred to > or from typical "everything is a bag of bytes" Unix-mindset FTP > implementations. Unless there's something particularly arcane you > haven't hinted at, I don't see anything that would prevent transferring > them over standard FTP, given a server and client that actually > understand that FTP is more than a bag-of-bytes transfer tool. No, you are right. And that is what I do when talking between a properly able FTP server and FTP client. Since that essentially boils down to an RSX system talking to an RSX system, I did it with an extension that makes it easy for me. The effect when talking to other systems are the same. Using the existing stuff in RFC 959 would only mean I would have problems transferring between RSX systems, and still not able to transfer to anything else anyway. So it's nothing really arcane. It's just that I will not be able to transfer something like a binary native RSX file to a non-RSX system. But that was almost expected anyway. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 14 16:36:06 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 22:36:06 -0000 Subject: Dan Tumey In-Reply-To: <54b6ec9a.466b320a.2920.ffff8642SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <54b6ec9a.466b320a.2920.ffff8642SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <021601d0304a$7cd37390$767a5ab0$@ntlworld.com> It is David Tumey and he is on the Greenkeys list. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill > Sudbrink > Sent: 14 January 2015 22:24 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Dan Tumey > > Is he on this list? The University of Iowa's PDP-8 restoration site says he is > producing beautiful replacement Teletype hammer pads: > > http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/UI-8/log.shtml > > I'd love to get a few for my tty. > > Bill S. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 14 16:44:39 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:44:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free hosting for all classiccmp sites In-Reply-To: <00c701d03042$54edcdb0$fec96910$@classiccmp.org> References: <004901d03038$e68cbfb0$b3a63f10$@classiccmp.org> <00c701d03042$54edcdb0$fec96910$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, Jay West wrote: > Alexandre: I did get your email at 7:15pm last night. The space for you > content is being set up today, I'd expect it to be ready > tonight/tomorrow. Give me a day to respond man ;) Ideally you'll get it down to the point where you're replying four minutes before the request arrives. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 14 16:47:16 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:47:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here. > It's the sound an email address makes when it strikes the inside of the killfile. :) A killfile is a thing that holds email addresses. When an inbound email finds a match in the killfile, it's simply dropped on the floor and never delivered. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jws at jwsss.com Wed Jan 14 17:24:39 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:24:39 -0800 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: <014201d03045$fc79ecf0$f56dc6d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> <014201d03045$fc79ecf0$f56dc6d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54B6FAB7.6040906@jwsss.com> Jay, there are no issues with the LED's that I know of other than they do have a load resistor in series with them, so they need no internal dropping resistor to work across +5. they have long leads as well, as there is a 1" (or there bouts) stiffening board to keep the leads from shorting out, and to position them in a line to poke thru the front panel. There are other solutions to allow for long leads, but they just used a long circuit board. Jim On 1/14/2015 2:03 PM, Jay West wrote: > Tony wrote... > Or, if you can find even one working LED on the original panel, remove it > and connected {snip} > > > That is probably the way I'll go. Thanks (as always) Tony!!! > > J > > > From doug at doughq.com Wed Jan 14 17:41:50 2015 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:41:50 +1100 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: <54B6FAB7.6040906@jwsss.com> References: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> <014201d03045$fc79ecf0$f56dc6d0$@classiccmp.org> <54B6FAB7.6040906@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <54B6FEBE.3020804@doughq.com> One thing to be careful about is that modern LEDs are *much* more effecient than old LEDs. I recently replaced a LED on my IMSAI front panel. The new LED stuck out like a sore thumb, it was insanely bright. From memory, I replaced the resistor with about a 1k2. Doug On 15/01/2015 10:24 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > Jay, > there are no issues with the LED's that I know of other than they do > have a load resistor in series with them, so they need no internal > dropping resistor to work across +5. > > they have long leads as well, as there is a 1" (or there bouts) > stiffening board to keep the leads from shorting out, and to position > them in a line to poke thru the front panel. There are other > solutions to allow for long leads, but they just used a long circuit > board. > > Jim > > On 1/14/2015 2:03 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Tony wrote... >> Or, if you can find even one working LED on the original panel, >> remove it >> and connected {snip} >> >> >> That is probably the way I'll go. Thanks (as always) Tony!!! >> >> J >> >> >> > > > From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Wed Jan 14 17:50:21 2015 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:50:21 -0700 Subject: Answer: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150112) Message-ID: More discussion ensued than was expected for this question. On a minimal 4k machine (no extended memory and no EAE) and no data break devices operating the longest latency would be that of a memory reference instruction with a defer (indirect address) cycle. On a Straight 8 this would be 4.5 microseconds. A single cycle data break device could have delayed the interrupt indefinitely although I know of no such devices. A three cycle break could extend the delay by an additional three memory cycles (4.5 microseconds) for a total of 9 microseconds. If the machine was equipped with an EAE then the Division instruction would have delayed entry of the interrupt service routine by up to 35 microseconds (on a straight 8). I believe this was a 9 microsecond instruction on the 8/e EAE. If the machine is equipped with extended memory then there is the CIF induced delay. CIF is the Change Instruction Field instruction. This instruction only schedules the change. The actual change does not take place until the next JMP I or JMS I instruction. The interrupts are masked by the CIF until the conclusion of the indirect branch. This is because the interrupt handler would not be able to restore the instruction field correctly in this instance. I have been unable to think of a reason why you would ever want to delay the indirect branch although you certainly could do so. That means the sequence CIF followed by a JMS I would only see the additional delay from the JMS I which is the same as the delay from a memory reference instruction with a defer. The JMP I variant would only be 3 microseconds. And the greatest source of interrupt latency on a straight 8 would have been due to the Option 189 which is the low cost A/D converter. This option added the ability to do 6 to 12 bit A/D conversions as a CPU instruction (6004). It performed a typical successive approximation conversion using the MB and AC registers. When 12 bit conversion were selected this instruction would take 56.6 microseconds to execute according to the manual. I don't have a 189 for my straight 8 but I am planning on hunting down the cards I don't have. And the answer Mr Stearns gave for this question was "No matter what it is faster than Windows." On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > This weeks question comes from Warren Stearns. It is a little obscure and > specific to the PDP-8 family of computers. > > What is the source of the greatest latency in the interrupt system on a > PDP-8. > > I have three answers, two of the answers depends on the options fitted to > an 8. > > Why would this have been an important question? Interrupt latency would > be extremely important in the field of data collection which was one of the > principal early uses of these machines. My particular 8 was used for > exactly this purpose in the Summer when it was hauled to a radar site and > collected weather research data for the Institute of Atmospheric Sciences. > I believe it was used for this from 1969 through 1972. I have several > hundred DECTapes with some of this data. The surprising thing is we don't > see any problems reading DECTapes that haven't been out of their box since > the early 70's. > > Doug Ingraham > PDP-8 S/N 1175 > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jan 14 17:55:33 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 18:55:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: front panel LED help sought Message-ID: <20150114235533.3DF4018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Robert Jarratt >> I've replaced LEDs many times without thinking what I am fitting. > "without thinking" is that an impostor pretending to be Tony? :-) :-) Foolish novice! Please consult: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan#Enlightenment for enlightenment. :-) Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 18:18:32 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 18:18:32 -0600 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: <54B6FAB7.6040906@jwsss.com> References: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> <014201d03045$fc79ecf0$f56dc6d0$@classiccmp.org> <54B6FAB7.6040906@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <023601d03058$cc5d0d50$651727f0$@classiccmp.org> JS wrote.... ---- they have long leads as well, as there is a 1" (or there bouts) stiffening board to keep the leads from shorting out, and to position them in a line to poke thru the front panel. There are other solutions to allow for long leads, but they just used a long circuit board. ---- Yep. A picture of what you describe (stiffening board and long leads): http://www.ezwind.net/microdata/restoration/frontpanel/IMG_0299.JPG J From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 18:21:02 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 22:21:02 -0200 Subject: Free hosting for all classiccmp sites In-Reply-To: References: <004901d03038$e68cbfb0$b3a63f10$@classiccmp.org> <00c701d03042$54edcdb0$fec96910$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Hey, sorry! I just though my email got lost into a spam filter :) On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 8:44 PM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, Jay West wrote: > > Alexandre: I did get your email at 7:15pm last night. The space for you >> content is being set up today, I'd expect it to be ready tonight/tomorrow. >> Give me a day to respond man ;) >> > > Ideally you'll get it down to the point where you're replying four minutes > before the request arrives. :D > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From scaron at umich.edu Wed Jan 14 18:33:07 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 19:33:07 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Wha? All I did was offer up some free space, bandwidth and static IPs when various people expressed a need. I didn't realize that Jay was the only person allowed to respond to those kind of requests here so I'll say no more when such threads come up and I'll leave it to him. I don't understand why my just offering up some free hosting got Jay so worked up where he needs to come in here and basically say, hey, everything you are running is a joke, waste of time... and, I mean, fine, you can have your own opinion of my home network, but I felt his messages ran deeper as a personal attack against me and my level of skill as a professional sysadmin. If this list were running on my machines, the first thing I'd tell you is that you don't owe me a darn thing for doing it. I will leave if asked, after all, I guess it's Jay's sandbox. Best, Sean On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:47 PM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > >> What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here. >> >> It's the sound an email address makes when it strikes the inside of the > killfile. :) > > A killfile is a thing that holds email addresses. When an inbound email > finds a match in the killfile, it's simply dropped on the floor and never > delivered. > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 19:23:53 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 19:23:53 -0600 Subject: NTP on classiccmp Message-ID: <000001d03061$ed806500$c8812f00$@classiccmp.org> I just noticed that NTP on classiccmp stopped, it has been restarted. My apologies, but you?ll probably want to scroll back ? day to catch any unread messages if you didn?t notice it! J From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 14 19:19:57 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 20:19:57 -0500 Subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <54B715BD.7020508@sbcglobal.net> On 1/14/2015 7:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Wha? All I did was offer up some free space, bandwidth and static IPs when > various people expressed a need. Nothing wrong with the offer > I didn't realize that Jay was the only person allowed to respond to those > kind of requests here so I'll say no more when such threads come up and > I'll leave it to him. Maybe you need to bone up on your comprehension skills. Please show me _exactly_ where Jay said he was the only person allowed to respond. > I don't understand why my just offering up some free hosting got Jay so > worked up where he needs to come in here and basically say, hey, everything > you are running is a joke, waste of time... Again, where was this said? > ... and, I mean, fine, you can have > your own opinion of my home network, but I felt his messages ran deeper as > a personal attack against me and my level of skill as a professional > sysadmin. A bit touchy? > If this list were running on my machines, the first thing I'd tell you is > that you don't owe me a darn thing for doing it. Which is what he's said for years. He's always said he'd host a classic computing related site gratis. He merely reiterated his standing offer, while adding that he has real business class infrastructure to host it on. > I will leave if asked, after all, I guess it's Jay's sandbox. I can't, and won't, ask you to leave; but I won't stop you either. > Best, > > Sean > > > > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:47 PM, geneb wrote: > >> On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >> >>> What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here. >>> >>> It's the sound an email address makes when it strikes the inside of the >> killfile. :) >> >> A killfile is a thing that holds email addresses. When an inbound email >> finds a match in the killfile, it's simply dropped on the floor and never >> delivered. >> >> g. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 20:44:25 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 20:44:25 -0600 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy gents, On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > Jay, leds hasn't changed much from years ago. Electronicaly, i believe any > led of same size/format/color will fit. As one who has recently rebuilt an early 70s Altair 8800, I can inform you that a great deal has changed, in the LED world. The very inexpensive 'standard' red LEDs which I obtained to replace the failed units in the Altair were magnitudes brighter than the original parts, when fed from the same power sources. I ended up having to increase the value of the series resistors by hundreds or even thousands of ohms, just to maintain a similar level of brightness vs. the old LEDs. I'd have to take a look inside, but I believe the values jumped from 300R to several K in most cases. The new tech is so much more efficient than the stuff kicked-out in the 70s! From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 20:53:41 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 00:53:41 -0200 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: drlegendre, he will change ALL of the leds, by what he said. So he doesn't need to worry about how bright they will be. Also, there are hi-bright leds and lo-bright leds, I believe he will use the least expensive, less bright ones by default. On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:44 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Howdy gents, > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Alexandre Souza < > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Jay, leds hasn't changed much from years ago. Electronicaly, i believe > any > > led of same size/format/color will fit. > > > As one who has recently rebuilt an early 70s Altair 8800, I can inform you > that a great deal has changed, in the LED world. > > The very inexpensive 'standard' red LEDs which I obtained to replace the > failed units in the Altair were magnitudes brighter than the original > parts, when fed from the same power sources. I ended up having to increase > the value of the series resistors by hundreds or even thousands of ohms, > just to maintain a similar level of brightness vs. the old LEDs. > > I'd have to take a look inside, but I believe the values jumped from 300R > to several K in most cases. The new tech is so much more efficient than the > stuff kicked-out in the 70s! > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 14 21:02:45 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:02:45 -0600 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002d01d0306f$bd567f50$38037df0$@classiccmp.org> Drlegendre wrote... The very inexpensive 'standard' red LEDs which I obtained to replace the failed units in the Altair were magnitudes brighter than the original parts, when fed from the same power sources. I ended up having to increase the value of the series resistors by hundreds or even thousands of ohms, just to maintain a similar level of brightness vs. the old LEDs. I'd have to take a look inside, but I believe the values jumped from 300R to several K in most cases. The new tech is so much more efficient than the stuff kicked-out in the 70s! ------ In my case, I'm not replacing just a few LEDs, I'm replacing every one of them. As a result I have a much wider tolerance aesthetically as to the brightness. That being said, I don't want to blast the room and hurt my eyes looking at them ;) The ones I'm going to be looking for have axial leads at least 1.5" long, and the bulb diameter is 4.6 or 4.7mm (with the slightly wider collar at the bottom). I'm hunting.... Thanks! J From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 22:08:25 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 22:08:25 -0600 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: <002d01d0306f$bd567f50$38037df0$@classiccmp.org> References: <002d01d0306f$bd567f50$38037df0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Ah, OK - my mistake! Sorry, gents.. I wasn't following closely enough, and had the impression that he was trying to mix old & new LEDs.. Thank you for replying and correcting my misunderstanding(s). On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Jay West wrote: > Drlegendre wrote... > The very inexpensive 'standard' red LEDs which I obtained to replace the > failed units in the Altair were magnitudes brighter than the original > parts, when fed from the same power sources. I ended up having to increase > the value of the series resistors by hundreds or even thousands of ohms, > just to maintain a similar level of brightness vs. the old LEDs. > > I'd have to take a look inside, but I believe the values jumped from 300R > to several K in most cases. The new tech is so much more efficient than the > stuff kicked-out in the 70s! > ------ > In my case, I'm not replacing just a few LEDs, I'm replacing every one of > them. As a result I have a much wider tolerance aesthetically as to the > brightness. That being said, I don't want to blast the room and hurt my > eyes looking at them ;) > > The ones I'm going to be looking for have axial leads at least 1.5" long, > and the bulb diameter is 4.6 or 4.7mm (with the slightly wider collar at > the bottom). I'm hunting.... > > Thanks! > > J > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 14 23:02:01 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:02:01 -0800 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3932C8D8-6F53-48A2-BE4D-F2DF358729D6@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Jan-14, at 6:53 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:44 AM, drlegendre . wrote: >> Howdy gents, >> >> On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Alexandre Souza < >> alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Jay, leds hasn't changed much from years ago. Electronicaly, i believe >> any >>> led of same size/format/color will fit. >> >> >> As one who has recently rebuilt an early 70s Altair 8800, I can inform you >> that a great deal has changed, in the LED world. >> >> The very inexpensive 'standard' red LEDs which I obtained to replace the >> failed units in the Altair were magnitudes brighter than the original >> parts, when fed from the same power sources. I ended up having to increase >> the value of the series resistors by hundreds or even thousands of ohms, >> just to maintain a similar level of brightness vs. the old LEDs. >> >> I'd have to take a look inside, but I believe the values jumped from 300R >> to several K in most cases. The new tech is so much more efficient than the >> stuff kicked-out in the 70s! >> > > drlegendre, he will change ALL of the leds, by what he said. So he doesn't > need to worry about how bright they will be. Also, there are hi-bright leds > and lo-bright leds, I believe he will use the least expensive, less bright > ones by default. Nonetheless, even 'normal' modern LEDs can be much more efficient than LEDs of the early-mid-70s, and even if replacing all of them for uniformity they might look out of character or non-original if not adjusted for brightness. The target current for an LED in the 70s would typically be 20mA as I recall, while 10mA or less will generally do today. A few months ago when that television series about the PC-era compatibles-vs-IBM story was being mentioned on the list, I went off to watch the preview on youtube. There was a scene where the engineer was hacking over the IBM-PC to get ROM-dumps or some such and had a bunch of breadboards filled with blinken LEDs. Being in critic/pedant mode, as soon as I saw the lit LEDs I immediately thought "LEDs didn't look like that in 1983". From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 14 23:55:55 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 00:55:55 -0500 Subject: Mauchly video uploaded Message-ID: <54B7566B.5000005@snarc.net> Cctalk'rs, Very exciting news to share tonight. Al Katz and Sol Libes, who co-founded the Trenton Computer Festival based on Roger Amidon's idea, gave we "MARCHins" permission to publish their video of ENIAC's John Mauchly keynoting the 1977 show. It was the first TCF keynote: there wasn't one at the 1976 show. Claude Kagan (a Western Electric engineer who also ran a 1960s/1970s high school computer club here in central New Jersey) gave the introduction. There are also remarks by Kay Mauchly, who was an ENIAC programmer, followed by some audience Q&A. A few minutes of the video are choppy due to the original source. Please share this far and wide! Video is in two parts so here's the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_e5fSxflvrxXO5Ddh9ZXX-cli94zF3Pc From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Jan 14 23:59:30 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 06:59:30 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B6E753.7030802@update.uu.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <201501141610.LAA21821@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54B6E753.7030802@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150115055930.GA8213@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 11:01:55PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Nah. The problem is simpler than that. It all relates to the fact > that files under RSX are very different than under Unix. File in RSX > are organized in different ways. And virtual tapes are of variable > sized records. So, how would I communicate that across FTP? And the > actual length of those records? > Is there some kind of backup/archiving tool on rsx which you could wrap files and metadata in? Before transfer to bag-of-bytes systems? /P From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 15 00:08:58 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 06:08:58 +0000 Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: <021201d03049$03e26960$0ba73c20$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> , <021201d03049$03e26960$0ba73c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > > Or as I said, just stick in standard red LEDs. I've replaced LEDs many > > times > > without thinking what I am fitting. > > "without thinking" is that an impostor pretending to be Tony? :-) :-) No, it's much the same way that I breathe without thinking. It is something that doesn't need thought. The 'bog standard' LEDs I get from Farnell, etc don't seem ridiculously bright when used with the same series resistors I was using 30 years ago (say 330 Ohms for an LED from a TTL output to +5V, giving a current of around 10mA). I suspect others are right and they would look odd if mixed with old LEDs on the same panel, but if you are replacing the lot it won't matter. As regards the long lead issue, you can of course solder extensions to shorter LED leads. And if you find you need more series resistance, one of the extensions could probably be a resistor. -tony From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 01:02:52 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 02:02:52 -0500 Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> What Jay said: "I'm happy to host any website, ftp site, wiki, etc. etc. that is classic computer related. As long as it meets that criteria, you can host your site with us for no charge." and "I fully support you offering (free) hosting services for vintage computer stuff. I am glad there are people out there besides just me willing to host classic computer related sites" And for newcomers he offered some background on the system which hosts this list and a number of related web sites, mainly to reassure us that we don't have to worry about uptime, speed, capacity or it disappearing any time soon as so many other sites are doing these days. At least that's what I read; where did you read anything like what you're replying to below? ... "Jay's the only person allowed to respond" ?? ... "everything you are running is a joke, waste of time" ?? ... "personal attack against me and my level of skill" ?? ... "I will leave if asked" ?? Huh? As a matter of fact I can't think of any time when someone has not been "allowed to respond" to anything on this list, not even I when I've gone on too long with some rant or another (like this one ;). Where does this come from? Why are some people so ready and almost determined to see /personal/ attacks where nothing of the sort is intended and that no one else reading the thread can see, especially when the original post is actually meant in a positive sense? I was recently banned from another list, apparently because a moderator inexplicably took offence at a post of mine thanking him for expanding on a reply from another member to a question I'd asked; I was gratified to receive a number of emails off-list from members just as puzzled as I as to what my 'crime' had been. (BTW, in case you're interested: the /V(erify) option in DOS copy commands really does NOT actually verify that the file has been correctly copied, just that there were no write errors ;) We're all in this to help and respect each other, so let's read/think twice before deciding that we've been attacked or insulted and responding inappropriately. And while I'm at it, let me thank Jay, Chuck, Al, Tony, Terry and all the other folks whom I've inadvertently overlooked for the (computer) time, knowledge, hard- and software, documentation etc. etc that they've freely donated and shared with the rest of our little community. Thanks!! m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Caron" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "Sean Caron" Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:33 PM Subject: Re: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] > Wha? All I did was offer up some free space, bandwidth and static IPs when > various people expressed a need. > > I didn't realize that Jay was the only person allowed to respond to those > kind of requests here so I'll say no more when such threads come up and > I'll leave it to him. > > I don't understand why my just offering up some free hosting got Jay so > worked up where he needs to come in here and basically say, hey, > everything > you are running is a joke, waste of time... and, I mean, fine, you can > have > your own opinion of my home network, but I felt his messages ran deeper as > a personal attack against me and my level of skill as a professional > sysadmin. > > If this list were running on my machines, the first thing I'd tell you is > that you don't owe me a darn thing for doing it. > > I will leave if asked, after all, I guess it's Jay's sandbox. > > Best, > > Sean > > > > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:47 PM, geneb wrote: > >> On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >> >>> What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here. >>> >>> It's the sound an email address makes when it strikes the inside of the >> killfile. :) >> >> A killfile is a thing that holds email addresses. When an inbound email >> finds a match in the killfile, it's simply dropped on the floor and never >> delivered. >> >> g. >> >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >> >> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! >> From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 01:17:49 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 02:17:49 -0500 Subject: front panel LED help sought References: <3932C8D8-6F53-48A2-BE4D-F2DF358729D6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <9A4790703AB744CBAB1A29809902BECC@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert" Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 12:02 AM > ... even 'normal' modern LEDs can be much more efficient than LEDs of the > early-mid-70s, and even if replacing all of them for uniformity they might > look out of character or non-original if not adjusted for brightness. ----- Reply ----- Just in case someone /does/ want to match up some existing ones I have a few bags of LEDs from 30 or 40 years ago, both new and pulls; ya never know... m From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jan 15 03:42:11 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:42:11 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <20150115055930.GA8213@Update.UU.SE> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <201501141610.LAA21821@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54B6E753.7030802@update.uu.se> <20150115055930.GA8213@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <54B78B73.9010009@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-15 06:59, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 11:01:55PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> Nah. The problem is simpler than that. It all relates to the fact >> that files under RSX are very different than under Unix. File in RSX >> are organized in different ways. And virtual tapes are of variable >> sized records. So, how would I communicate that across FTP? And the >> actual length of those records? >> > > Is there some kind of backup/archiving tool on rsx which you > could wrap files and metadata in? > > Before transfer to bag-of-bytes systems? Yes. I could certainly do that. However, that means someone would need to write an unpacking tool from this format, and to then write some "userful" output under a Unix system. But this would definitely be doable. But it's not some kind of backup/archive tool that is needed. Any such tool would have the same "problematic" output file. But I've written a tool in the past that can encode binary files in a text file format. Similar to uuencode/uudecode. And then you have a text file which still preserves all the metadata of the original file. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jan 15 05:41:01 2015 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 12:41:01 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B6E8D7.6070409@update.uu.se> (Johnny Billquist's message of "Wed\, 14 Jan 2015 23\:08\:23 +0100") References: <20150114142132.CA52D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20150114165554.GA27719@Update.UU.SE> <54B6E8D7.6070409@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <8561c8i84y.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Johnny Billquist wrote: > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Why would PDP-10 be so much harder? > > Everything is of course doable, but there will be a whole lot of bit > fiddling and juggling doing TCP/IP on a PDP-10. If you just use the "natural" 8-bite byte packing for a word (i.e. what IBP does, and also the subset the one-word global byte pointers support), I don't see that it would be so much harder. The PDP-10 byte instructions are quite convenient for bit fidding. From tsg at bonedaddy.net Thu Jan 15 07:11:05 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 08:11:05 -0500 Subject: Dan Tumey In-Reply-To: <021601d0304a$7cd37390$767a5ab0$@ntlworld.com> References: <54b6ec9a.466b320a.2920.ffff8642SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <021601d0304a$7cd37390$767a5ab0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20150115131105.GB14268@ns1.bonedaddy.net> He also has excellent reproduction Teletype front panels too. They look really great! Todd * Robert Jarratt [150114 17:36]: > It is David Tumey and he is on the Greenkeys list. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill > > Sudbrink > > Sent: 14 January 2015 22:24 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Dan Tumey > > > > Is he on this list? The University of Iowa's PDP-8 restoration site says > he is > > producing beautiful replacement Teletype hammer pads: > > > > http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/UI-8/log.shtml > > > > I'd love to get a few for my tty. > > > > Bill S. From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jan 15 07:29:27 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 14:29:27 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <8561c8i84y.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <20150114142132.CA52D18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20150114165554.GA27719@Update.UU.SE> <54B6E8D7.6070409@update.uu.se> <8561c8i84y.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <54B7C0B7.1030709@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-15 12:41, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> Why would PDP-10 be so much harder? >> >> Everything is of course doable, but there will be a whole lot of bit >> fiddling and juggling doing TCP/IP on a PDP-10. > > If you just use the "natural" 8-bite byte packing for a word > (i.e. what IBP does, and also the subset the one-word global byte > pointers support), I don't see that it would be so much harder. The > PDP-10 byte instructions are quite convenient for bit fidding. They are. But you also have to, sometimes, do calculations to create your byte pointers, as the byte you want to start looking at might not be at the beginning of a word. And the same is true for some 16- or 32-bit quantities. And you need to do arithmetic on 16- and 32-bit with the correct byte ordering, which might mean you have to move bytes around, and truncate things. The story goes on. Like I said, it is definitely doable, but it do require some fiddling. The devil is in the details. Once you actually start coding, you'll discover all the small annoyances. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Jan 15 07:48:47 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 14:48:47 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B78B73.9010009@update.uu.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <201501141610.LAA21821@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54B6E753.7030802@update.uu.se> <20150115055930.GA8213@Update.UU.SE> <54B78B73.9010009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150115134846.GA17477@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 10:42:11AM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-01-15 06:59, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > >Is there some kind of backup/archiving tool on rsx which you > >could wrap files and metadata in? > > > >Before transfer to bag-of-bytes systems? > > Yes. I could certainly do that. However, that means someone would > need to write an unpacking tool from this format, and to then write > some "userful" output under a Unix system. But this would definitely > be doable. > Of course, I was under the impression that the target was another RSX system and the unix system was just an intermediate step. But I might have dreamt that part :) /P From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jan 15 08:14:32 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 15:14:32 +0100 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <20150115134846.GA17477@Update.UU.SE> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <201501141610.LAA21821@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54B6E753.7030802@update.uu.se> <20150115055930.GA8213@Update.UU.SE> <54B78B73.9010009@update.uu.se> <20150115134846.GA17477@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <54B7CB48.8050302@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-15 14:48, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 10:42:11AM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-01-15 06:59, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> >>> Is there some kind of backup/archiving tool on rsx which you >>> could wrap files and metadata in? >>> >>> Before transfer to bag-of-bytes systems? >> >> Yes. I could certainly do that. However, that means someone would >> need to write an unpacking tool from this format, and to then write >> some "userful" output under a Unix system. But this would definitely >> be doable. >> > > Of course, I was under the impression that the target was > another RSX system and the unix system was just an intermediate > step. But I might have dreamt that part :) I'm not entirely clear what the purpose was. I pointed out that transferring the tape file over ftp to a different type of system was not possible, as information is lost. If you want to just store intermediately on another system, then my encoding/decoding program is perfect. But most of the time, if you are going to transfer between two RSX systems, you can just do it directly instead, and FTP will do it right already. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From scaron at umich.edu Thu Jan 15 10:23:05 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 11:23:05 -0500 Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] In-Reply-To: <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> Message-ID: Look, I basically let this go yesterday night. All I did was (1) call out some specious hand-waving about how insecure Mediawiki is and my perceived implication in that statement that, by endorsing Mediawiki or administering a Mediawiki I am not a security-conscious admin and (2) offer up free Wiki and static-Web hosting services to other hobbyists on this list. You can read yourself all the threads and decide for yourself, if they were being written to you, would you find them offensive? I know I wasn't the only one who found it a little bit over the top. Jay had many literary mechanisms available that he could have used to make his points; I found the ones he selected in particular to be offensive. I will absolutely rise to it if someone wants to come at me, I guess if that makes me thin-skinned, so be it, I will wear that badge. I learned how to deal with bullies long ago. If I had responded to someone else like Jay responded to me, I would have been pilloried. He doesn't get a free pass with me just by being the list owner although it's well within his rights to ask me to leave or kick of me off (neither have happened, so, hey, good sports, I guess). Last response from me regarding any of this nastiness from yesterday. If you or anyone else wants to chat further regarding this topic you're welcome to shoot me a personal e-mail. Best, Sean On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > What Jay said: > > "I'm happy to host any website, ftp site, wiki, etc. etc. that is classic > computer related. As long as it meets that criteria, you can host your site > with us for no charge." and "I fully support you offering (free) hosting > services for vintage computer stuff. I am glad there are people out there > besides just me willing to host classic computer related sites" > > And for newcomers he offered some background on the system which hosts this > list and a number of related web sites, mainly to reassure us that we don't > have to worry about uptime, speed, capacity or it disappearing any time > soon > as so many other sites are doing these days. > > At least that's what I read; where did you read anything like what you're > replying to below? > > ... "Jay's the only person allowed to respond" ?? > ... "everything you are running is a joke, waste of time" ?? > ... "personal attack against me and my level of skill" ?? > ... "I will leave if asked" ?? > > Huh? > > As a matter of fact I can't think of any time when someone has not been > "allowed to respond" to anything on this list, not even I when I've gone on > too long with some rant or another (like this one ;). > > Where does this come from? Why are some people so ready and almost > determined to see /personal/ attacks where nothing of the sort is intended > and that no one else reading the thread can see, especially when the > original post is actually meant in a positive sense? > > I was recently banned from another list, apparently because a moderator > inexplicably took offence at a post of mine thanking him for expanding on a > reply from another member to a question I'd asked; I was gratified to > receive a number of emails off-list from members just as puzzled as I as to > what my 'crime' had been. > > (BTW, in case you're interested: the /V(erify) option in DOS copy commands > really does NOT actually verify that the file has been correctly copied, > just that there were no write errors ;) > > We're all in this to help and respect each other, so let's read/think twice > before deciding that we've been attacked or insulted and responding > inappropriately. > > And while I'm at it, let me thank Jay, Chuck, Al, Tony, Terry and all the > other folks whom I've inadvertently overlooked for the (computer) time, > knowledge, hard- and software, documentation etc. etc that they've freely > donated and shared with the rest of our little community. > > Thanks!! > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Caron" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > ; "Sean Caron" > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:33 PM > Subject: Re: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] > > > Wha? All I did was offer up some free space, bandwidth and static IPs when >> various people expressed a need. >> >> I didn't realize that Jay was the only person allowed to respond to those >> kind of requests here so I'll say no more when such threads come up and >> I'll leave it to him. >> >> I don't understand why my just offering up some free hosting got Jay so >> worked up where he needs to come in here and basically say, hey, >> everything >> you are running is a joke, waste of time... and, I mean, fine, you can >> have >> your own opinion of my home network, but I felt his messages ran deeper as >> a personal attack against me and my level of skill as a professional >> sysadmin. >> >> If this list were running on my machines, the first thing I'd tell you is >> that you don't owe me a darn thing for doing it. >> >> I will leave if asked, after all, I guess it's Jay's sandbox. >> >> Best, >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:47 PM, geneb wrote: >> >> On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here. >>>> >>>> It's the sound an email address makes when it strikes the inside of the >>>> >>> killfile. :) >>> >>> A killfile is a thing that holds email addresses. When an inbound email >>> finds a match in the killfile, it's simply dropped on the floor and never >>> delivered. >>> >>> g. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >>> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >>> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >>> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >>> >>> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >>> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >>> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! >>> >>> > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 15 10:28:04 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 11:28:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] In-Reply-To: <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> Message-ID: <201501151628.LAA04735@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > What Jay said: [...] > And for newcomers he offered some background [...] > At least that's what I read; where did you read anything like what > you're replying to below? I have a suspicion I may have some idea what happened. I don't for a moment think this is what Jay intended. But what he wrote did strike me as being rather like "my server is bigger than your server, so shut up" - that is to say, while I've been here long enough to know that is (shall we say) extremely unlikely to be what Jay meant, the text was rather like what would have resulted if that _had_ been what he'd meant, and most of the differences were things Jay didn't say. And a lot of people find it hard to notice unsaid things. So, while Jay didn't outright say (and, I repeat, I don't believe he meant) anything like any of > ... "Jay's the only person allowed to respond" ?? > ... "everything you are running is a joke, waste of time" ?? > ... "personal attack against me and my level of skill" ?? > ... "I will leave if asked" ?? I have no trouble seeing how someone new(ish) to the list could read any or all of those as subtext below what Jay did write. > Where does this come from? I don't know. I speculate that it comes from having been on the net long enough to have run into plenty of cases of "well _my_ $THING is $BETTER than _your_ $THING" (which are depressingly common) and developed reflexive reactions to them, combined with not having been here long enough to have learnt that that's not something Jay would say. Or maybe even just having been tired or stressed enough to have failed to suppress the reflexive reaction. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From scaron at umich.edu Thu Jan 15 10:34:05 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 11:34:05 -0500 Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] In-Reply-To: <201501151628.LAA04735@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> <201501151628.LAA04735@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: You nailed it. Thank you for understanding. Best, Sean On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Mouse wrote: > > What Jay said: [...] > > > And for newcomers he offered some background [...] > > > At least that's what I read; where did you read anything like what > > you're replying to below? > > I have a suspicion I may have some idea what happened. > > I don't for a moment think this is what Jay intended. But what he > wrote did strike me as being rather like "my server is bigger than your > server, so shut up" - that is to say, while I've been here long enough > to know that is (shall we say) extremely unlikely to be what Jay meant, > the text was rather like what would have resulted if that _had_ been > what he'd meant, and most of the differences were things Jay didn't > say. And a lot of people find it hard to notice unsaid things. > > So, while Jay didn't outright say (and, I repeat, I don't believe he > meant) anything like any of > > > ... "Jay's the only person allowed to respond" ?? > > ... "everything you are running is a joke, waste of time" ?? > > ... "personal attack against me and my level of skill" ?? > > ... "I will leave if asked" ?? > > I have no trouble seeing how someone new(ish) to the list could read > any or all of those as subtext below what Jay did write. > > > Where does this come from? > > I don't know. I speculate that it comes from having been on the net > long enough to have run into plenty of cases of "well _my_ $THING is > $BETTER than _your_ $THING" (which are depressingly common) and > developed reflexive reactions to them, combined with not having been > here long enough to have learnt that that's not something Jay would > say. Or maybe even just having been tired or stressed enough to have > failed to suppress the reflexive reaction. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 15 10:38:51 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 08:38:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] In-Reply-To: References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> <201501151628.LAA04735@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20150115083748.H86039@shell.lmi.net> I have plenty of plastic cups if anybody wants to share the next box of plonk. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jan 15 10:59:40 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:59:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: front panel LED help sought In-Reply-To: <023601d03058$cc5d0d50$651727f0$@classiccmp.org> References: <00b701d03041$d722bd50$856837f0$@classiccmp.org> <014201d03045$fc79ecf0$f56dc6d0$@classiccmp.org> <54B6FAB7.6040906@jwsss.com> <023601d03058$cc5d0d50$651727f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, Jay West wrote: > JS wrote.... > ---- > they have long leads as well, as there is a 1" (or there bouts) stiffening > board to keep the leads from shorting out, and to position them in a line to > poke thru the front panel. There are other solutions to allow for long > leads, but they just used a long circuit board. > ---- > > Yep. A picture of what you describe (stiffening board and long leads): > http://www.ezwind.net/microdata/restoration/frontpanel/IMG_0299.JPG I had wondered if you had finished the Microdata... I can't remember for certain now if I ever followed up, but I did check my stash of old Allen-Bradley resistor networks and I couldn't find any that were the same value and bus configuration as the ones the mouse pee ruined on your board. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jan 15 11:17:29 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 11:17:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] In-Reply-To: <201501151628.LAA04735@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> <201501151628.LAA04735@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jan 2015, Mouse wrote: >> What Jay said: [...] > >> And for newcomers he offered some background [...] > >> At least that's what I read; where did you read anything like what >> you're replying to below? > > I have a suspicion I may have some idea what happened. > > I don't for a moment think this is what Jay intended. But what he > wrote did strike me as being rather like "my server is bigger than your > server, so shut up" - that is to say, while I've been here long enough > to know that is (shall we say) extremely unlikely to be what Jay meant, > the text was rather like what would have resulted if that _had_ been > what he'd meant, and most of the differences were things Jay didn't > say. And a lot of people find it hard to notice unsaid things. > > So, while Jay didn't outright say (and, I repeat, I don't believe he > meant) anything like any of > >> ... "Jay's the only person allowed to respond" ?? >> ... "everything you are running is a joke, waste of time" ?? >> ... "personal attack against me and my level of skill" ?? >> ... "I will leave if asked" ?? > > I have no trouble seeing how someone new(ish) to the list could read > any or all of those as subtext below what Jay did write. > >> Where does this come from? > > I don't know. I speculate that it comes from having been on the net > long enough to have run into plenty of cases of "well _my_ $THING is > $BETTER than _your_ $THING" (which are depressingly common) and > developed reflexive reactions to them, combined with not having been > here long enough to have learnt that that's not something Jay would > say. Or maybe even just having been tired or stressed enough to have > failed to suppress the reflexive reaction. I think Mouse pretty much hit the nail on the here here. Sean, MediaWiki hosting, specifically the server administration aspects, tends to be an absolute nightmare. It is one of those things where the maintenance of the underlying MediaWiki software is best left to a dedicated hosting provider who is always going to be on top of all the security patches (I'd also place something like WordPress in this category for the same reasons). I've worked with MediaWiki extensively in the past, including handling the server admin side of it, and it was a right pain in the rear to deal with. From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jan 15 11:18:37 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 17:18:37 +0000 Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] In-Reply-To: References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> <201501151628.LAA04735@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <3D9ED231-31D5-4C22-973D-4191C99BDD90@swri.edu> On Jan 15, 2015, at 11:17 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > I think Mouse pretty much hit the nail on the here here. Bravo, Head, head! :-) - Mark From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 15 11:35:02 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 12:35:02 -0500 Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] In-Reply-To: <3D9ED231-31D5-4C22-973D-4191C99BDD90@swri.edu> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> <201501151628.LAA04735@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3D9ED231-31D5-4C22-973D-4191C99BDD90@swri.edu> Message-ID: <54B7FA46.7060003@sbcglobal.net> On 01/15/2015 12:18 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > On Jan 15, 2015, at 11:17 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> I think Mouse pretty much hit the nail on the here here. > > Bravo, Head, head! > > :-) > > - Mark > I'll just disagree. :) But let's let it drop here & now. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jan 15 12:24:19 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 12:24:19 -0600 Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] In-Reply-To: References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> Message-ID: <007401d030f0$7b0abd10$71203730$@classiccmp.org> It was written.... ---- Look, I basically let this go yesterday night. ---- Apparently not. ---- All I did was (1) call out some specious hand-waving about how insecure Mediawiki is ---- As other listmembers pointed out, concerns about the security of Mediawiki are not "specious hand-waving". There are real issues there that have to be addressed. Not knowing that is probably considered by many to be "unusual". ----- and my perceived implication in that statement that, by endorsing Mediawiki or administering a Mediawiki I am not a security-conscious admin ----- See above. ----- I know I wasn't the only one who found it a little bit over the top. Jay had many literary mechanisms available that he could have used to make his points; I found the ones he selected in particular to be offensive. ----- I doubt that. But If you found it offensive, I would have appreciated an email off-list but I suspect you were more interested in public drama or concern that your "geekdom" (affectionate term, not a slam) was being challenged. ---- it's well within his rights to ask me to leave or kick of me off (neither have happened, so, hey, good sports, I guess). ---- Not yet anyways. This thread needs to die. ---- Last response from me regarding any of this nastiness from yesterday. ---- Yes, it is. I would love to go into the reasons for the exact literary mechanisms I chose for my initial post in detail, but I will not (I did however, send those to Sean off-list, and will gladly share them with anyone who wishes - offlist). Most here that are long-timers I'm sure were able to read between the lines and unfortunately you could not. Suffice it to say that my post was based on custodial reasons, looking out for what was best for the hobby as much as is possible/reasonable. You made it personal, and it was not. Again, perhaps contacting the "offending" poster off-list to resolve amicably would have been better than public drama. Let's kill this thread please. J From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jan 15 12:21:03 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:21:03 +0100 Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM4341 and HP3000]] In-Reply-To: <007401d030f0$7b0abd10$71203730$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> <007401d030f0$7b0abd10$71203730$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1f0f13507040ee55de13f2d5df8c470f@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net> PLONK ? -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Jay West" Verzonden: ?15-?1-?2015 19:15 Aan: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Onderwerp: RE: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM4341 and HP3000]] It was written.... ---- Look, I basically let this go yesterday night. ---- Apparently not. ---- All I did was (1) call out some specious hand-waving about how insecure Mediawiki is ---- As other listmembers pointed out, concerns about the security of Mediawiki are not "specious hand-waving". There are real issues there that have to be addressed. Not knowing that is probably considered by many to be "unusual". ----- and my perceived implication in that statement that, by endorsing Mediawiki or administering a Mediawiki I am not a security-conscious admin ----- See above. ----- I know I wasn't the only one who found it a little bit over the top. Jay had many literary mechanisms available that he could have used to make his points; I found the ones he selected in particular to be offensive. ----- I doubt that. But If you found it offensive, I would have appreciated an email off-list but I suspect you were more interested in public drama or concern that your "geekdom" (affectionate term, not a slam) was being challenged. ---- it's well within his rights to ask me to leave or kick of me off (neither have happened, so, hey, good sports, I guess). ---- Not yet anyways. This thread needs to die. ---- Last response from me regarding any of this nastiness from yesterday. ---- Yes, it is. I would love to go into the reasons for the exact literary mechanisms I chose for my initial post in detail, but I will not (I did however, send those to Sean off-list, and will gladly share them with anyone who wishes - offlist). Most here that are long-timers I'm sure were able to read between the lines and unfortunately you could not. Suffice it to say that my post was based on custodial reasons, looking out for what was best for the hobby as much as is possible/reasonable. You made it personal, and it was not. Again, perhaps contacting the "offending" poster off-list to resolve amicably would have been better than public drama. Let's kill this thread please. J From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 12:34:32 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 13:34:32 -0500 Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> Message-ID: <5F8AE48ADC72476D97616D5D8B77B4BC@310e2> From: "Sean Caron" Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] > You can read yourself all the threads and decide for yourself, if they > were > being written to you, would you find them offensive? No. It is always *our* choice how to interpret and feel about things we read and hear and whether to make the effort to understand rather than just react. All Jay said is that his setup, collective experience etc. is perhaps more suited to this sort of thing than yours but he welcomes you and anyone who wants to add to the resources available to this community. What does offend me is your Straw Man arguments and name calling; Jay a "bully" ? --- Description of Straw Man The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. --- 'nuff said. m From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 12:38:17 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 13:38:17 -0500 Subject: Fw: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] Message-ID: Sorry; meant to send that privately. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Stein" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 1:34 PM Subject: Re: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] > From: "Sean Caron" > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:23 AM > Subject: Re: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: > IBM 4341 and HP3000]] > >> You can read yourself all the threads and decide for yourself, if they >> were >> being written to you, would you find them offensive? > > No. > > It is always *our* choice how to interpret and feel about things we read > and hear and whether to make the effort to understand rather than just > react. > > All Jay said is that his setup, collective experience etc. is perhaps more > suited to this sort of thing than yours but he welcomes you and anyone who > wants to add to the resources available to this community. > > What does offend me is your Straw Man arguments and name calling; Jay a > "bully" ? > > --- > Description of Straw Man > > The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's > actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented > version of that position. > --- > > 'nuff said. > > m From tots at matinino.com Thu Jan 15 17:20:37 2015 From: tots at matinino.com (Hector Saint-Prix) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:20:37 -0400 Subject: IBM System/36 follow up Message-ID: <54B84B45.4070008@matinino.com> Hi everyone, Back to you guys with a small gallery of pictures of the machine via Dropbox. It is a 5360 system ( 1m? / 700 pounds), with french labeled panel. I have not tried to open its guts yet. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fiyipqf9p92mery/AACAXjdASRhVNHM9sPCzh6DVa?dl=0 The system is located in Martinique (French West Indies). It had only one owner, a Medical Laboratory that bought it between 1985-1987 I think and used it on a network with at least 4 maybe 5 terminals and a printer. The system used a software sold by a Paris based company that still exist and keeps on selling software solutions on AS/400 architecture. The Laboratory migrated to new hardware. Later it moved and left the 5360 in the old place. I have no clue about the configuration but I know it had a hard drive and it supported floppy disk banks. From what I've been told, there is no way it can shipped by boat to North America. Simply because you have to fill up a container to be able to make a cargo shipment, and very very few stuff goes this direction so it would take a long while before fullfilling the requirement. The only easy shipping option to North-America is by airplane which is quite a proposition for a 1m? / 320kg box. To send it as a whole to Europe instead is quite easy. There is freight boarding every week and containers are on heavy rotation. Shipping to the main port destination which is "Le Havre, France" would in the vinicity of 500 euros, though some taxes in arrival are to be expected (20% on the items value). I will search the place so more, maybe I can find some documentation. Truly Yours, Hector From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jan 15 21:47:58 2015 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 04:47:58 +0100 Subject: [HECnet] Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> Message-ID: <54B889EE.4050807@softjar.se> There have been lots of positive comments, and obviously some people have even tested using the software. Of course, a bug was also found. A really weird corner case with severely loading the network stack and having a socket in listen state programatically could trigger a corruption of kernel memory. So I've cut a new release with the bug fixed. While I'm at it I also realize that I forgot to mention that included in the distribution is also a simple IRC client as well as a simple IRC robot. I've also taken a little time to slightly improve the documentation, and the documentation is now also available directly by ftp from Madame.Update.UU.SE, so you do not need to get the whole distribution and unpack it to just read something. So - same as before. Disk image and tape image are available at Madame.Update.UU.SE. Use anonymous ftp. Disk image is also available at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip. The disk image is a virtual RL02 disk. Can be used with any emulator, or also directly inside RSX if you have virtual devices available. Happy hacking. Johnny On 2015-01-14 00:40, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Well, it's been a long time project, but I'm happy to finally announce a > more public initial release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. > > This is the result of over 20 years of development. Needless to say, > I've been doing a lot of things over the years, and this code have been > through four reimplementations over the years. > What I now release is something that I believe is a nice and useful > piece of software. I am aware of the fact that most people do not use > these machines any longer, but if someone actually wants to talk to me > about support for this or other RSX software, let me know. > > Also, feel free to spread this information to anyone who might be > interested, anywhere. > > So - what is in this release? > It is a complete implementation of ARP, IP, UDP, and TCP for > RSX-11M-PLUS. It has been tested on RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6, but should work > on any V4 release. There might be some small tweaks or fixes required, > but nothing major. > It do require a system with split I/D-space, or else at least the TCP > part will not fit. > For Unibus machines, it should be possible to run without any additional > software except what is in a base RSX distribution. > For Q-bus machines, DECnet is required for ethernet networking. > The TCP/IP stack can co-exist with DECnet. > Some utilities also utilize RMS for file access. > > A bunch of tools, utilities and libraries are also included. These include: > . IFCONFIG network configuration tool. > . NETSTAT network information tool. > . PING > . TRACEROUTE > > . DNS client > . FTP daemon > . FTP client > . HTTP server > . TELNET client (rudimentary) > . TFTP client > . TFTP server > . INET server that can do SINK, ECHO, DAYTIME, QUOTE, and IDENT > . NTP client > . LPR client that sits in the queue manager (rudimentary) > > . FORTRAN-77 library > . BASIC+2 library > . PDP-11 C library > > The implementation fulfills most of the requirements put forth in RFC > 1122. There are a few limitations because of restrictions in the PDP-11, > but none of them should really cause any problems. > > Documentation is still on the thin side, but example configs are also > provided, along with installation scripts. > > A bunch of test programs and example programs are also included, as well > as the sources of all tools and libraries. > > The TCP/IP stack itself only comes in binary form. > > All tools are also included precompiled in the distribution, so an > installation only have to build the stack itself for your system, and > then you should be ready to go. > > The API only have a slight resemblance to the Unix sockets API. However, > if someone sits down to write code to use TCP/IP under RSX, I'm sure > they will discover that it is extremely easy to use the libraries, or > the basic functions. > > The TCP/IP implementation is mostly written as device drivers. This also > have some other interesting implications, such as it is possible to > access TCP as a normal file. You can, for instance do something similar > to the Unix netcat command by issuing the MCR command: > > > PIP TI:=TC:"foo.com";4711 > > which would open a connection to foo.com, on port 4711, and any data > sent from that machine will be shown on the terminal. > > The resources used by TCP/IP are modest. A memory area (size selectable > at generation/startup) is used internally. The amount of memory in the > private pool limits the amount of data that can be buffered. Normal pool > is used in a small quantity for each TCP port that is open. > > People are welcome to play around with this, and make improvements. > Contributions of code is most welcome. > > There are still lots of things to do. The programs marked as rudimentary > should be rewritten. > The most obvious thing still missing is a telnet daemon, which probably > is my next step. > > However, the reason for now announcing the release is that it can > finally be distributed natively from an RSX host. > > The main locations to download the TCP/IP for RSX are: > > Madame.Update.UU.SE (anonymous ftp). > > This is one of my development systems for this software. It runs under > E11, and if things are down, I blame E11. :-) > When connected, you are already in the right directory. There is both an > RL02 disk image there, which can be downloaded by anyone. If you happen > to have an RSX system which you are conneting from, you can also try > getting the BQTCP.TAP tape image. Such an image will not transport > cleanly to a non-RSX system, however. Sorry. > > ftp.Update.UU.SE (anonymous ftp) - /pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip > The disk image is normally duplicated to ftp.update.uu.se as well, so > the same file can be found there. > > I hope some people will find this useful/amusing. :-) > > Johnny Billquist > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jan 15 22:22:59 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 22:22:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]] In-Reply-To: <3D9ED231-31D5-4C22-973D-4191C99BDD90@swri.edu> References: <20150114193342.00D2518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54B6C7C9.7080204@bitsavers.org> <007b01d0303c$30d809a0$92881ce0$@classiccmp.org> <00c801d03042$b5368bd0$1fa3a370$@classiccmp.org> <54B6E129.7030300@cimmeri.com> <2660E2D374A64F97812EDE385EBDA084@310e2> <201501151628.LAA04735@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3D9ED231-31D5-4C22-973D-4191C99BDD90@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jan 2015, Tapley, Mark wrote: > On Jan 15, 2015, at 11:17 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> I think Mouse pretty much hit the nail on the here here. > > Bravo, Head, head! > > :-) Note to self: caffeine before spellcheck. :P From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Thu Jan 15 22:36:25 2015 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 04:36:25 +0000 Subject: Netware/IP 1.1 Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768A7FF68@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Just curious, anyone on here ever work with Netware/IP 1.1? Don't laugh, but anyone still have an old copy for sale? :) Thanks! From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 22:39:33 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 22:39:33 -0600 Subject: SimH Help, was Re: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > There have been lots of positive comments, and obviously some people have > even tested using the software. > I shall echo the sentiments of others; thanks for releasing this! So - same as before. Disk image and tape image are available at > Madame.Update.UU.SE. Use anonymous ftp. > Disk image is also available at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip > . > The disk image is a virtual RL02 disk. Can be used with any emulator, or > also directly inside RSX if you have virtual devices available. Johnny, you mentioned you're running under E11. Has anyone tried it under SimH yet? I put together an 11/70 1MB system under the PDP-11 emulator (built with Ethernet support under OS X 10.9) and have installed RSX-11M-PLUS 4.6. When I was installing, SYSGEN reported 512k of RAM instead of 1M, which alarmed me. I went into manual mode and told it explicitly 1M. That's been my only hiccup so far, and that's about where I'm at. If anyone has any suggestions for a newcomer to RSX, I'd certainly appreciate it. I'd be more than willing to write up a tutorial if someone can help me the rest of the way. Thanks, Kyle From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jan 15 22:44:03 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 05:44:03 +0100 Subject: SimH Help, was Re: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54B89713.6040102@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-16 05:39, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> There have been lots of positive comments, and obviously some people have >> even tested using the software. >> > > I shall echo the sentiments of others; thanks for releasing this! > > So - same as before. Disk image and tape image are available at >> Madame.Update.UU.SE. Use anonymous ftp. >> Disk image is also available at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip >> . >> The disk image is a virtual RL02 disk. Can be used with any emulator, or >> also directly inside RSX if you have virtual devices available. > > > Johnny, you mentioned you're running under E11. Has anyone tried it under > SimH yet? I put together an 11/70 1MB system under the PDP-11 emulator > (built with Ethernet support under OS X 10.9) and have installed > RSX-11M-PLUS 4.6. When I was installing, SYSGEN reported 512k of RAM > instead of 1M, which alarmed me. I went into manual mode and told it > explicitly 1M. That's been my only hiccup so far, and that's about where > I'm at. If anyone has any suggestions for a newcomer to RSX, I'd certainly > appreciate it. I'd be more than willing to write up a tutorial if someone > can help me the rest of the way. I've done development and testing on three different machines. 1) E11 - Emulating an 11/74 - to make sure the code also works on multiprocessor PDP-11s. 2) Simh - Emulating a 11/94. 3) A real PDP-11/93. As for memory, I hope you are aware that RSX reports memory in kilowords, not kilobytes. :-) But anyway, why not go for a fully loaded machine when you have the chance? Slightly less than 4MB, or 2MW. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jan 15 22:46:03 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 05:46:03 +0100 Subject: SimH Help, was Re: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54B8978B.8030905@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-16 05:39, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> There have been lots of positive comments, and obviously some people have >> even tested using the software. >> > > I shall echo the sentiments of others; thanks for releasing this! > > So - same as before. Disk image and tape image are available at >> Madame.Update.UU.SE. Use anonymous ftp. >> Disk image is also available at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip >> . >> The disk image is a virtual RL02 disk. Can be used with any emulator, or >> also directly inside RSX if you have virtual devices available. > > > Johnny, you mentioned you're running under E11. Has anyone tried it under > SimH yet? I put together an 11/70 1MB system under the PDP-11 emulator > (built with Ethernet support under OS X 10.9) and have installed > RSX-11M-PLUS 4.6. When I was installing, SYSGEN reported 512k of RAM > instead of 1M, which alarmed me. I went into manual mode and told it > explicitly 1M. That's been my only hiccup so far, and that's about where > I'm at. If anyone has any suggestions for a newcomer to RSX, I'd certainly > appreciate it. I'd be more than willing to write up a tutorial if someone > can help me the rest of the way. By the way - as far as newcomers go. I hope you are aware that the full manual set is available on bitsavers. It's a lot to read, but start with a few simple manuals like "Introduction to RSX", which is really basic. And then some manuals about utilities and system management. Of course, you can also just ask, and I'll try and answer. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 22:58:29 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 22:58:29 -0600 Subject: SimH Help, was Re: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B89713.6040102@update.uu.se> References: <54B89713.6040102@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > I've done development and testing on three different machines. > > 1) E11 - Emulating an 11/74 - to make sure the code also works on > multiprocessor PDP-11s. > 2) Simh - Emulating a 11/94. > 3) A real PDP-11/93. > Very cool. I only have a PDP-11/73 in my personal collection (not currently booting), but an 11/20 and 11/34 are right down the street. Someday (maybe soon) I'll get those fired up again. As for memory, I hope you are aware that RSX reports memory in kilowords, > not kilobytes. :-) > Doh...! No, I wasn't aware of that. In which case, SYSGEN apparently had no problem detecting how much RAM was in the system! Thanks for that tidbit. But anyway, why not go for a fully loaded machine when you have the chance? > Slightly less than 4MB, or 2MW. Well, I suppose if it's as easy as changing the config file and re-running SYSGEN, I'll do it. I'll check out that documentation pronto (Intro to RSX sounds like a great start). Right now, I've been working on punched card reading on the PDP-8, as well as emulating a VC8E. Sounds like I need to catch up on the 16-bit realm for a change! Thanks again, Kyle From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 03:02:05 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 01:02:05 -0800 Subject: Subject: Knowledge Base (was RE: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20B9B521-D9E5-4947-81A9-016F4FCD0F08@gmail.com> I am relatively new here but joining this mailing list has helped me almost immediately. Thank you Jay and others for doing this and contributing a professional grade infrastructure. The wiki is an idea, but an alternative that I wish would exist is a repository for restoration logs. Something that you could follow and comment on, and that allows attachment of slightly richer media to posts (photos, docs) in the context of someone's specific restoration project. You learn so much from these. I know people already do it individually, but not in a centralized searchable place (you have to chance upon them), and often in an annoying reverse chronology "blog" format that's ill adapted for this usage. Or a museum style static website that does not relate the problem solving path (including things that fail) that a restoration is. In other "build oriented" groups I belong to, we do this very successfully by encouraging individual build log threads in a Forum format. That's in addition to a catch-all "string of consciousness" mailing list like this one. Is that anything that could be considered? Marc > Message: 21 > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:42:34 -0600 > From: "Jay West" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Subject: Knowledge Base (was RE: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay > Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] > Message-ID: <004a01d0303a$a11eefa0$e35ccee0$@classiccmp.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > So.. about this "knowledgebase" of restoration techniques. > > Apparently new folks don't know and some older listmembers don't remember... > > We did start a "wiki" for people to post restoration tips, repair tips, etc. > This was done about 8 years ago. When I first brought up the idea there was > a lot of discussion on the list as to if it was a good idea or not. Many > people had very good thoughts as to why it would be wonderful, and many > other people had equally good thoughts as to why it would not be wonderful. > > In any case, I set it up. We found that there was an initial flurry of > posting, and then virtually nothing. Statistics showed it was not used very > much at all. There were a handful of issues as I recall (not my > implementation of it, but in the general idea of a > repair/troubleshooting/restoration "wiki"). I only remember one of them at > the moment... and that was that someone would post an article without really > having detailed expertise in that given area and then someone that DID have > expertise in that area would (for lack of a better term) contramand that > article or write a separate one with conflicting info which made it hard for > a novice to really sift through the information. In short, everyone has an > opinion and at times the articles directly conflicted with another and > someone seeking knowledge wouldn't know who to believe. > > That being said, if people really want to give this another try, I would be > happy to turn on the old classiccmp knowledge base (I'm 99% sure it's stored > but just not turned on), or I could easily have one of my support staff dump > a wiki installation to a folder there (under classiccmp) and we could give > it a try again. I'm all for it, but for it to be successful - it has to be > due to contribution/acceptance by the membership at large. My proclivity at > this point would be to install a new wiki and then pull articles already > posted in the old "wiki" into it. > > And yes, if it's to be in the classiccmp.org domain, I'd have to host it. I > have not yet seen a scenario where we'd be willing to point an a-record > off-site (but that's not to say some future situation might get a different > response). > > Best, > J From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 03:47:26 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 09:47:26 -0000 Subject: Restoration Best Practice RE: Subject: Knowledge Base (was RE: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] Message-ID: <0bf001d03171$6fc8a3f0$4f59ebd0$@gmail.com> I try and blog my restorations here:- http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/blog.php?18268-g4ugm but I often forget. Actually recording what you have done is really important and is often forgotten or over looked. The last thing you want to do when you wife drags you away from the home workshop is write up what you have done mot it is really important. I also try and change things in a reversible manner. If I replace capacitors I keep and record where they came from. I don't suppose this will ever be of interest to any one else, but it might be... Dave G4UGM -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marc Verdiell Sent: 16 January 2015 09:02 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Subject: Knowledge Base (was RE: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] I am relatively new here but joining this mailing list has helped me almost immediately. Thank you Jay and others for doing this and contributing a professional grade infrastructure. The wiki is an idea, but an alternative that I wish would exist is a repository for restoration logs. Something that you could follow and comment on, and that allows attachment of slightly richer media to posts (photos, docs) in the context of someone's specific restoration project. You learn so much from these. I know people already do it individually, but not in a centralized searchable place (you have to chance upon them), and often in an annoying reverse chronology "blog" format that's ill adapted for this usage. Or a museum style static website that does not relate the problem solving path (including things that fail) that a restoration is. In other "build oriented" groups I belong to, we do this very successfully by encouraging individual build log threads in a Forum format. That's in addition to a catch-all "string of consciousness" mailing list like this one. Is that anything that could be considered? Marc > Message: 21 > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:42:34 -0600 > From: "Jay West" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Subject: Knowledge Base (was RE: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay > Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000] > Message-ID: <004a01d0303a$a11eefa0$e35ccee0$@classiccmp.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > So.. about this "knowledgebase" of restoration techniques. > > Apparently new folks don't know and some older listmembers don't remember... > > We did start a "wiki" for people to post restoration tips, repair tips, etc. > This was done about 8 years ago. When I first brought up the idea > there was a lot of discussion on the list as to if it was a good idea > or not. Many people had very good thoughts as to why it would be > wonderful, and many other people had equally good thoughts as to why it would not be wonderful. > > In any case, I set it up. We found that there was an initial flurry of > posting, and then virtually nothing. Statistics showed it was not used > very much at all. There were a handful of issues as I recall (not my > implementation of it, but in the general idea of a > repair/troubleshooting/restoration "wiki"). I only remember one of > them at the moment... and that was that someone would post an article > without really having detailed expertise in that given area and then > someone that DID have expertise in that area would (for lack of a > better term) contramand that article or write a separate one with > conflicting info which made it hard for a novice to really sift > through the information. In short, everyone has an opinion and at > times the articles directly conflicted with another and someone seeking knowledge wouldn't know who to believe. > > That being said, if people really want to give this another try, I > would be happy to turn on the old classiccmp knowledge base (I'm 99% > sure it's stored but just not turned on), or I could easily have one > of my support staff dump a wiki installation to a folder there (under > classiccmp) and we could give it a try again. I'm all for it, but for > it to be successful - it has to be due to contribution/acceptance by > the membership at large. My proclivity at this point would be to > install a new wiki and then pull articles already posted in the old "wiki" into it. > > And yes, if it's to be in the classiccmp.org domain, I'd have to host > it. I have not yet seen a scenario where we'd be willing to point an > a-record off-site (but that's not to say some future situation might > get a different response). > > Best, > J From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Jan 16 06:32:33 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 13:32:33 +0100 Subject: SimH Help, was Re: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: <54B89713.6040102@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54B904E1.1070105@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-16 05:58, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> As for memory, I hope you are aware that RSX reports memory in kilowords, >> not kilobytes. :-) >> > > Doh...! No, I wasn't aware of that. In which case, SYSGEN apparently had no > problem detecting how much RAM was in the system! Thanks for that tidbit. Yep. :-) >> But anyway, why not go for a fully loaded machine when you have the chance? >> Slightly less than 4MB, or 2MW. > > > Well, I suppose if it's as easy as changing the config file and re-running > SYSGEN, I'll do it. No need to SYSGEN. The system will pick the memory size at boot. > I'll check out that documentation pronto (Intro to RSX sounds like a great > start). Right now, I've been working on punched card reading on the PDP-8, > as well as emulating a VC8E. Sounds like I need to catch up on the 16-bit > realm for a change! Have fun! :-) Johnny From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 16 07:32:32 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 07:32:32 -0600 Subject: Subject: Knowledge Base Message-ID: <008401d03190$e2309230$a691b690$@classiccmp.org> Marc wrote.... ---- [snip] Thank you Jay and others for doing this and contributing a professional grade infrastructure. ---- Most welcome - but it's not just me. There's a lot of folks who help. ---- The wiki is an idea, but an alternative that I wish would exist is a repository for restoration logs. [snip] ---- The conversation makes things come back to me from old memory :) Now that I think about it - that was the primary "con" thought that most listmembers had about a "wiki". It basically competed with the mailing list as a resource and many of the folks here weren't going to go "graphical" so it would just result in a fracture/fork and dilution of the community. As a result, we went with a "Knowledge Base" package for pretty much the exact reasons you list in your post. The one we had used was "Andy's PHP Knowledge Base". I would be happy to try it again if listmembers would agree to substantially contribute. The only thing worse than not having one is having one that doesn't really have great content (and I'm positive the listmembers have great content to contribute). The only criteria I'd have from my side is that it be php/mysql based. We do have a flock of windows servers in the infrastructure, but I'd prefer if it was FAMP based. I haven't seen where the development of Andy's package has gone over the years, so I'd appreciate any suggestions folks may have as to a good php/mysql knowledge base type of package. I personally like the idea of a knowledgebase, but as Marc says - it'd be nice to have a place for people to post their restoration logs. Many people do this on their own sites and it's a great thing but I'm sure many people (me included) generally don't have the time to create an entire site to post the progress of each restoration project. Maybe if something in this site would allow easy subsection creation ("John Smiths PDP7 restoration project") that could be of help to both restorers and interested people wanting to learn. There is a site for people restoring/customizing Jon boats that I've spent a lot of time on where each person can create their own section documenting their restoration project. That type of thing would be a great resource here in addition to a "knowledge base". Let me know if there's interest. Thoughts? J From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 07:28:34 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 11:28:34 -0200 Subject: Subject: Knowledge Base In-Reply-To: <008401d03190$e2309230$a691b690$@classiccmp.org> References: <008401d03190$e2309230$a691b690$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I'm in. But instead of repair/restoration logs, I'd like to also contribute with specific knowledge (e.g.: how to properly neutralize alkali from batteries on a PCB) which I believe to be more searcheable and a better contribuition than just logs. On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Jay West wrote: > Marc wrote.... > ---- > [snip] Thank you Jay and others for doing this and contributing a > professional grade infrastructure. > ---- > Most welcome - but it's not just me. There's a lot of folks who help. > > ---- > The wiki is an idea, but an alternative that I wish would exist is a > repository for restoration logs. [snip] > ---- > The conversation makes things come back to me from old memory :) Now that I > think about it - that was the primary "con" thought that most listmembers > had about a "wiki". It basically competed with the mailing list as a > resource and many of the folks here weren't going to go "graphical" so it > would just result in a fracture/fork and dilution of the community. As a > result, we went with a "Knowledge Base" package for pretty much the exact > reasons you list in your post. The one we had used was "Andy's PHP > Knowledge > Base". > > I would be happy to try it again if listmembers would agree to > substantially > contribute. The only thing worse than not having one is having one that > doesn't really have great content (and I'm positive the listmembers have > great content to contribute). > > The only criteria I'd have from my side is that it be php/mysql based. We > do > have a flock of windows servers in the infrastructure, but I'd prefer if it > was FAMP based. > > I haven't seen where the development of Andy's package has gone over the > years, so I'd appreciate any suggestions folks may have as to a good > php/mysql knowledge base type of package. > > I personally like the idea of a knowledgebase, but as Marc says - it'd be > nice to have a place for people to post their restoration logs. Many people > do this on their own sites and it's a great thing but I'm sure many people > (me included) generally don't have the time to create an entire site to > post > the progress of each restoration project. Maybe if something in this site > would allow easy subsection creation ("John Smiths PDP7 restoration > project") that could be of help to both restorers and interested people > wanting to learn. There is a site for people restoring/customizing Jon > boats > that I've spent a lot of time on where each person can create their own > section documenting their restoration project. That type of thing would be > a > great resource here in addition to a "knowledge base". > > Let me know if there's interest. Thoughts? > > J > > > > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 16 07:50:42 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 07:50:42 -0600 Subject: Paging Mouse@rodents-montreal Message-ID: <009e01d03193$6bfd99c0$43f8cd40$@classiccmp.org> Mouse; I've tried to send you an email off-list, but both of the mail server infrastructures here (one unix, one windows) can't seem to get through to your mail server. More to the point, I recall seeing a notice or two over time that the classiccmp mail server has trouble getting to you and disables your subscription automatically and I re-enable it any time I notice it. Can you email me a different email address for you that's on a different server perhaps? J From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Jan 16 09:23:36 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 10:23:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Paging Mouse@rodents-montreal In-Reply-To: <009e01d03193$6bfd99c0$43f8cd40$@classiccmp.org> References: <009e01d03193$6bfd99c0$43f8cd40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201501161523.KAA14270@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Mouse; > I've tried to send you an email off-list, but both of the mail server > infrastructures here (one unix, one windows) can't seem to get > through to your mail server. That's odd; list mail seems to work fine. Is it emerging from a different IP or something? Do you have the rejection message? I'd like to find the failures in my logs, assuming of course that they got far enough I have log entries here. > More to the point, I recall seeing a notice or two over time that the > classiccmp mail server has trouble getting to you and disables your > subscription automatically and I re-enable it any time I notice it. That's odd; my scripts should auto-reenable when the subscription auto-suspends. But if it's not working for some reason then perhaps I should take the other option. I have a standing offer to listowners and postmasters for lists I'm on to make list mail that would normally be rejected just silently vanish instead. (Admittedly, I have no non-human-layer mechanism in place to make such people aware of that offer.) > Can you email me a different email address for you that's on a > different server perhaps? Well, you could try mouse at netbsd.org and/or mouse at openface.ca. But for the list, I'd rather stick with mouse at rodents-montreal.org and just do as I sketched above: make list mail that would normally be rejected just silently vanish instead. I'll get started on that; it should be in place within the next few hours at most. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 16 10:39:24 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 08:39:24 -0800 Subject: Subject: Knowledge Base In-Reply-To: <008401d03190$e2309230$a691b690$@classiccmp.org> References: <008401d03190$e2309230$a691b690$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7FDB1AE1-89F2-4F15-B00D-1939C55D889E@shiresoft.com> > On Jan 16, 2015, at 5:32 AM, Jay West wrote: > > > > I personally like the idea of a knowledgebase, but as Marc says - it'd be > nice to have a place for people to post their restoration logs. Many people > do this on their own sites and it's a great thing but I'm sure many people > (me included) generally don't have the time to create an entire site to post > the progress of each restoration project. Maybe if something in this site > would allow easy subsection creation ("John Smiths PDP7 restoration > project") that could be of help to both restorers and interested people > wanting to learn. There is a site for people restoring/customizing Jon boats > that I've spent a lot of time on where each person can create their own > section documenting their restoration project. That type of thing would be a > great resource here in addition to a "knowledge base". > > Let me know if there's interest. Thoughts? I'm in. ;-) I've tried to do "blog-like" updates on my own website and it's a pain. ;-) I'd really like to have something where I can just do simple posts (hopefully with the ability to post pictures). One that I've been following recently is Carl Claunch's blog on restoring the IBM 1130 that he rescued. He's actually been pretty active on posting to the blog each day (some what jealous that I don't have that much time to "play"). ;-) TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 10:48:22 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 08:48:22 -0800 Subject: Subject: Knowledge Base In-Reply-To: <7FDB1AE1-89F2-4F15-B00D-1939C55D889E@shiresoft.com> References: <008401d03190$e2309230$a691b690$@classiccmp.org> <7FDB1AE1-89F2-4F15-B00D-1939C55D889E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <54B940D6.5060906@bitsavers.org> On 1/16/15 8:39 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > One that I've been following recently is Carl Claunch's blog on restoring the > IBM 1130 that he rescued. http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/ He mentioned on the 1401 list that he's come up with a mod to the Documation card readers to read right-notched cards. I was hoping he might have posted what he'd done somewhere as I tried it by cutting a trace to ignore the top edge sensor on the trailing edge of a card scan, but that didn't work. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jan 16 12:09:02 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 13:09:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Subject: Knowledge Base In-Reply-To: <54B940D6.5060906@bitsavers.org> References: <008401d03190$e2309230$a691b690$@classiccmp.org> <7FDB1AE1-89F2-4F15-B00D-1939C55D889E@shiresoft.com> <54B940D6.5060906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jan 2015, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/16/15 8:39 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> One that I've been following recently is Carl Claunch's blog on restoring >> the >> IBM 1130 that he rescued. > > http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/ > > He mentioned on the 1401 list that he's come up with a mod to the > Documation card readers to read right-notched cards. I was hoping he > might have posted what he'd done somewhere as I tried it by cutting a > trace to ignore the top edge sensor on the trailing edge of a card scan, > but that didn't work. Please pass that on if you find out what it is. I have the same setup. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Jan 16 13:02:23 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 20:02:23 +0100 Subject: Paging Mouse@rodents-montreal In-Reply-To: <201501161523.KAA14270@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <009e01d03193$6bfd99c0$43f8cd40$@classiccmp.org> <201501161523.KAA14270@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20150116190223.GA89161@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > Mouse; > > > I've tried to send you an email off-list, but both of the mail server > > infrastructures here (one unix, one windows) can't seem to get > > through to your mail server. > > That's odd; list mail seems to work fine. Is it emerging from a > different IP or something? Do you have the rejection message? I'd > like to find the failures in my logs, assuming of course that they got > far enough I have log entries here. > > > More to the point, I recall seeing a notice or two over time that the > > classiccmp mail server has trouble getting to you and disables your > > subscription automatically and I re-enable it any time I notice it. > > That's odd; my scripts should auto-reenable when the subscription > auto-suspends. But if it's not working for some reason then perhaps I > should take the other option. I have a standing offer to listowners > and postmasters for lists I'm on to make list mail that would normally > be rejected just silently vanish instead. (Admittedly, I have no > non-human-layer mechanism in place to make such people aware of that > offer.) > > > Can you email me a different email address for you that's on a > > different server perhaps? > > Well, you could try mouse at netbsd.org and/or mouse at openface.ca. But for > the list, I'd rather stick with mouse at rodents-montreal.org and just do > as I sketched above: make list mail that would normally be rejected > just silently vanish instead. I'll get started on that; it should be > in place within the next few hours at most. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Are the rejected Mails from germans on that list? Mouse you are rejecting mails from an entire country b'cause of the decision of the german nic (DeNic) to block whois queries.. (I'm not lucky with that decision but I can't change it..) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Jan 16 13:28:27 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 14:28:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Paging Mouse@rodents-montreal In-Reply-To: <20150116190223.GA89161@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <009e01d03193$6bfd99c0$43f8cd40$@classiccmp.org> <201501161523.KAA14270@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20150116190223.GA89161@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201501161928.OAA02628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Are the rejected Mails from germans on that list? They shouldn't be - or, at least, if they are it should be for other reasons. See below. > Mouse you are rejecting mails from an entire country b'cause of the > decision of the german nic (DeNic) to block whois queries.. Not quite. To block whois queries that don't include a magic denic-specific option. Provide that option - which some whois clients even do automatically - and they will cheerfully hand out the info. (At least, back when I looked at it. If they've blocked it entirely now, even worse.) The German government has chosen to present an actively antisocial face to the net. (I count making it gratuitously difficult to track down abusers as antisocial.) That it's a whole country that's chosen to act so antisocially is sad, but being large doesn't get them a free pass on such behaviour with me. If anything, the opposite; large entities need to be held to stricter, not laxer, standards of behaviour than small. List mail should not be affected by this. The test is applied to the host which is trying to hand the mail to me; for list mail, this is always the classiccmp list host. (There are other tests which might trip, but in those cases the listmember's nationality is irrelevant; it's things like mislabeling Windows-1252 text as being ISO-8859-1 I'm talking about here.) And, now, they shouldn't be bothering Jay at all. I (think I) have what I mentioned upthread in place: list mail that would normally be rejected should now instead be accepted and silently dropped. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 16 13:53:35 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:53:35 +0000 Subject: Paper tape standard Message-ID: I hadn't spotted this before, and it may be of interest to some here : http://www.polyomino.org.uk/computer/ECMA-10/ It's the ECMA standard for paper tape. -tony From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 13:54:29 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:54:29 -0200 Subject: Tabajara Labs working again Message-ID: So, the site is back :) I'd like to Thank Jay West for the kind offer of space for my site. Saved my bacon! Hope you all can enjoy www.tabalabs.com.br - it is mostly in portuguese, but google translator is your friend, and the pics are nice :) Also, there are lots of brazilian hardware pictured there, for the curious Greetings from Brazil! Alexandre Souza --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 13:58:24 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:58:24 -0200 Subject: Paper tape standard References: Message-ID: <7542EF2ED1C944E7973EA70B6C9F7511@deskjara> OBA! I'm crazy for creating a paper reader/perfurator! :D This is an old dream of mine, although I have no specific computers who use it, nor any specimen of perfored tape around. But I find it to be just beautiful :) --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "tony duell" To: Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 5:53 PM Subject: Paper tape standard I hadn't spotted this before, and it may be of interest to some here : http://www.polyomino.org.uk/computer/ECMA-10/ It's the ECMA standard for paper tape. -tony = From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Jan 16 14:08:56 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:08:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: FTGH: Pioneer DRM-602X 6-CD changer Message-ID: <201501162008.PAA09635@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> I have this six-disc CD changer by Pioneer which I do not expect to have further use for - or, more precisely, the chance of future use is small enough I don't consider it worth the space it takes to store it. It's a SCSI device. I hooked it up and it showed up as six drives at ID 6, one at each LUN from 0 through 5, and accessing two of the drives gave me the contents of the two discs I put in the magazine, so it seems to work at least minimally. (IIRC there's a switch which controls the ID.) The box trumpets it as "THE ONLY SIX-DISC DOUBLE-SPEED CD-ROM CHANGER", which may give some idea of its age. Here's what autoconfig printed for it: probe(esp0:6:0): max sync rate 8.33Mb/s scsipi_inqmatch: 2/5/1 <, , > cd0 at scsibus0 targ 6 lun 0: SCSI2 5/cdrom removable scsipi_inqmatch: 2/5/1 <, , > cd1 at scsibus0 targ 6 lun 1: SCSI2 5/cdrom removable scsipi_inqmatch: 2/5/1 <, , > cd2 at scsibus0 targ 6 lun 2: SCSI2 5/cdrom removable scsipi_inqmatch: 2/5/1 <, , > cd3 at scsibus0 targ 6 lun 3: SCSI2 5/cdrom removable scsipi_inqmatch: 2/5/1 <, , > cd4 at scsibus0 targ 6 lun 4: SCSI2 5/cdrom removable scsipi_inqmatch: 2/5/1 <, , > cd5 at scsibus0 targ 6 lun 5: SCSI2 5/cdrom removable I have the box, interior packing foam, and one 6-disc magazine for it. I don't think I have anything else that may have come with it (maybe a rudimentary user's guide, not sure). The box has a sticker on it saying it includes a "PC SCSI Interface" and "SIX EXCITING CD-ROM TITLES"; none of those are actually present any longer. It's in /earth/northamerica/canada/ontario/ottawa. The box is moderately large, about 11 by 15 by 22 inches, and is somewhat beat-up (scuffs, small tears) but basically intact. Free to a good home. Pick-up preferred; I could probably wrap another layer of paper around this and ship it, but the bother factor is high enough it would take some persuading. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 16 14:09:32 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 20:09:32 +0000 Subject: Paper tape standard In-Reply-To: <7542EF2ED1C944E7973EA70B6C9F7511@deskjara> References: , <7542EF2ED1C944E7973EA70B6C9F7511@deskjara> Message-ID: > OBA! I'm crazy for creating a paper reader/perfurator! :D This is an old > dream of mine, although I have no specific computers who use it, nor any > specimen of perfored tape around. But I find it to be just beautiful :) The reader is relatively easy to make at home, at least if you are happy with a photoelectric one. If you trigger off the feed holes, you don't need a sprocket drive, a capstan and pnch roller is fine. This is the sort of thing you can make in a good home workshop. The punch is a lot harder. Making the punch pins and die block, and then correctly grinding and hardening the former is not going to be easy. Mechanically the rest may not look too hard (the Facit 4070 used a set of rotary solenoids and linkages, one per pin), but it is still a major project. -tony From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Jan 16 14:13:02 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 20:13:02 +0000 Subject: Paper tape standard In-Reply-To: References: <7542EF2ED1C944E7973EA70B6C9F7511@deskjara> Message-ID: I had a dream of creating a paper tape with a program I wrote on it for the Pegasus computer at the Science Museum. If they ever turn it on again, or another one crops up, I might not have any excuses left... On 16 January 2015 at 20:09, tony duell wrote: > > > OBA! I'm crazy for creating a paper reader/perfurator! :D This is an > old > > dream of mine, although I have no specific computers who use it, nor any > > specimen of perfored tape around. But I find it to be just beautiful :) > > The reader is relatively easy to make at home, at least if you are happy > with a > photoelectric one. If you trigger off the feed holes, you don't need a > sprocket > drive, a capstan and pnch roller is fine. This is the sort of thing you > can make > in a good home workshop. > > The punch is a lot harder. Making the punch pins and die block, and then > correctly grinding and hardening the former is not going to be easy. > Mechanically the rest may not look too hard (the Facit 4070 used a set > of rotary solenoids and linkages, one per pin), but it is still a major > project. > > -tony > From sales at elecplus.com Fri Jan 16 14:31:53 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 14:31:53 -0600 Subject: the old VHS series on the history of computing Message-ID: <029801d031cb$773d90f0$65b8b2d0$@com> http://waxy.org/2008/06/the_machine_that_changed_the_world/ He found all 5 episodes, digitized them, and uploaded them. Cindy Croxton From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 16 14:47:18 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 14:47:18 -0600 Subject: HP Interex Message-ID: <006301d031cd$9ea3b550$dbeb1ff0$@classiccmp.org> I had posted to the list a while back that I had saved the HP/Interex and HP1000 CSL site before it went dark and put them up on the classiccmp server. Just got an email from the folks in the HP/DSD alumni group that they are enjoying that content being available again. That REALLY makes me feel good J WOOHOO! Along those lines, the copy of the Interex/CSL that I saved originally included not just the files, but also the html and jpg that made up the site itself. Over years, I lost the html and jpg files. Not a huge concern as the data files that the site served up are all present. But.. If anyone happens to have the .html, .jpg, etc files (and if it doesn't infringe) I'd be happy to add them back so it has the original "look & feel". J From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 16 14:50:59 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 20:50:59 -0000 Subject: Paper tape standard In-Reply-To: References: <7542EF2ED1C944E7973EA70B6C9F7511@deskjara> Message-ID: <001201d031ce$22329a30$6697ce90$@ntlworld.com> Perhaps not quite the same, but when I bring my Teletype Model 33, connected to a DECSYSTEM-20 emulation, to DEC Legacy in April you can save a program on paper tape if you like. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark > Wickens > Sent: 16 January 2015 20:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Paper tape standard > > I had a dream of creating a paper tape with a program I wrote on it for the > Pegasus computer at the Science Museum. If they ever turn it on again, or > another one crops up, I might not have any excuses left... > > On 16 January 2015 at 20:09, tony duell wrote: > > > > > > OBA! I'm crazy for creating a paper reader/perfurator! :D This > > > is an > > old > > > dream of mine, although I have no specific computers who use it, nor > > > any specimen of perfored tape around. But I find it to be just > > > beautiful :) > > > > The reader is relatively easy to make at home, at least if you are > > happy with a photoelectric one. If you trigger off the feed holes, you > > don't need a sprocket drive, a capstan and pnch roller is fine. This > > is the sort of thing you can make in a good home workshop. > > > > The punch is a lot harder. Making the punch pins and die block, and > > then correctly grinding and hardening the former is not going to be easy. > > Mechanically the rest may not look too hard (the Facit 4070 used a set > > of rotary solenoids and linkages, one per pin), but it is still a > > major project. > > > > -tony > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jan 16 15:43:48 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 13:43:48 -0800 Subject: Updated Spacewar for the PDP-8/I, 8/E, etc.... Message-ID: <20150116134348.7367ad3f@asrock.bcwi.net> I just updated D.E. Wrege's Spacewar as follows: 1. Correctly supports slow monitors attached to a VC8/E interface by correcting mistakes made in the VC8/E driver code. The code now follows DEC's recommended method of waiting on the VC8/E. 2. Starts up with spaceships (as opposed to UFO's) per the original Spacewar! by Steve Russell. 3. Now supports the DK8-EC Crystal Clock Items 1 & 2 were released by me previously - but support for the DK8-EC is brand new. The new source and listing can be picked up via anonymous FTP to bickleywest.com and the pdp8_spcwar directory. Most browsers (not IE) will support this: ftp://bickleywest.com/pdp8_spcwar/ Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jan 16 16:24:51 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 14:24:51 -0800 Subject: FTGH: Pioneer DRM-602X 6-CD changer In-Reply-To: <201501162008.PAA09635@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201501162008.PAA09635@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <54B98FB3.8030402@jwsss.com> On 1/16/2015 12:08 PM, Mouse wrote: > I have this six-disc CD changer by Pioneer I am interested in your changer. Jim This is probably what Jay got back. >>> mouse at rodents-montreal.org (reading BANNER): 550-Not interested in mail from somewhere whose webmail system 550-doesn't record the client IP address in a proper 550-Received: from $IPADDR ... with HTTP Sorry to bother the list, but I've never gotten email thru to Mouse, and I'm interested in his changer. Perhaps you can open a gmail throwaway account? Not sure what your means are. I have several in case I need to get around problems like this. And Google does allow you to use your email client via pop and imap. thanks. jim From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 16:26:28 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 14:26:28 -0800 Subject: Convergent NGEN storage hardware manuals Message-ID: <54B99014.3040407@bitsavers.org> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/convergent/ngen/hardware uploaded yesterday This is the first time that I've come across any real hardware documentation on the NGEN. It's already helped the guy working on the simulation in MESS. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 16 16:44:49 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 22:44:49 -0000 Subject: Testing VT101 Power Supply Message-ID: <003401d031de$08dc7230$1a955690$@ntlworld.com> I am looking to test the power supply board of my VT101 before connecting it all up and switching it on. Reading to the Pocket Service Manual it seems to suggest that you can check the outputs of the power supply board with the terminal controller board and the video monitor board both disconnected. This would mean no load on the power supply. Does this seem wise? Regards Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 16:57:06 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 22:57:06 -0000 Subject: Paper tape standard In-Reply-To: References: <7542EF2ED1C944E7973EA70B6C9F7511@deskjara> Message-ID: <037101d031df$c34e6ff0$49eb4fd0$@gmail.com> There is a Pegasus emulator here:- http://sw.ccs.bcs.org/CCs/simulate.htm it can be configured to output the tape output to the printer port, so whilst you can't run a program on a real Pegasus you should be able to get paper tape out if you had a paper tape punch. I was hoping to be able to feed the tape from this program into the original Creed 6S paper tape reader, and hence print it on the Creed printer from the Pegasus at MOSI Manchester. Sadly, MOSI have decided they want to re-use the gallery the Pegasus is displayed on so the project has been suspended. I don't expect it to restart. I had got as far as printing from paper tape. Dave Wade G4UGM -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Wickens Sent: 16 January 2015 20:13 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Paper tape standard I had a dream of creating a paper tape with a program I wrote on it for the Pegasus computer at the Science Museum. If they ever turn it on again, or another one crops up, I might not have any excuses left... On 16 January 2015 at 20:09, tony duell wrote: > > > OBA! I'm crazy for creating a paper reader/perfurator! :D This > > is an > old > > dream of mine, although I have no specific computers who use it, nor > > any specimen of perfored tape around. But I find it to be just > > beautiful :) > > The reader is relatively easy to make at home, at least if you are > happy with a photoelectric one. If you trigger off the feed holes, you > don't need a sprocket drive, a capstan and pnch roller is fine. This > is the sort of thing you can make in a good home workshop. > > The punch is a lot harder. Making the punch pins and die block, and > then correctly grinding and hardening the former is not going to be easy. > Mechanically the rest may not look too hard (the Facit 4070 used a set > of rotary solenoids and linkages, one per pin), but it is still a > major project. > > -tony > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 17:11:24 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 23:11:24 -0000 Subject: Paper tape standard In-Reply-To: <001201d031ce$22329a30$6697ce90$@ntlworld.com> References: <7542EF2ED1C944E7973EA70B6C9F7511@deskjara> <001201d031ce$22329a30$6697ce90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <06c701d031e1$c004b140$400e13c0$@gmail.com> Some time in the future I would like to build an FPGA emulation of the Pegasus, complete with console switches, tape readers, tape punches and Creed Teleprinter. I have some of the parts including a Creed Teleprinter and Creed Paper Tape reader, Post Office Switches for the console. I can't find a Creed 25 high speed punch so I will have to improvise and use one of my other punches....... ... if its ever completed I would be glad to run your program.... Dave -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jarratt Sent: 16 January 2015 20:51 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Paper tape standard Perhaps not quite the same, but when I bring my Teletype Model 33, connected to a DECSYSTEM-20 emulation, to DEC Legacy in April you can save a program on paper tape if you like. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark > Wickens > Sent: 16 January 2015 20:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Paper tape standard > > I had a dream of creating a paper tape with a program I wrote on it > for the Pegasus computer at the Science Museum. If they ever turn it > on again, or another one crops up, I might not have any excuses left... > > On 16 January 2015 at 20:09, tony duell wrote: > > > > > > OBA! I'm crazy for creating a paper reader/perfurator! :D This > > > is an > > old > > > dream of mine, although I have no specific computers who use it, > > > nor any specimen of perfored tape around. But I find it to be just > > > beautiful :) > > > > The reader is relatively easy to make at home, at least if you are > > happy with a photoelectric one. If you trigger off the feed holes, > > you don't need a sprocket drive, a capstan and pnch roller is fine. > > This is the sort of thing you can make in a good home workshop. > > > > The punch is a lot harder. Making the punch pins and die block, and > > then correctly grinding and hardening the former is not going to be easy. > > Mechanically the rest may not look too hard (the Facit 4070 used a > > set of rotary solenoids and linkages, one per pin), but it is still > > a major project. > > > > -tony > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Jan 16 17:35:38 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 18:35:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: FTGH: Pioneer DRM-602X 6-CD changer In-Reply-To: <54B98FB3.8030402@jwsss.com> References: <201501162008.PAA09635@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54B98FB3.8030402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <201501162335.SAA06533@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I have this six-disc CD changer by Pioneer > I am interested in your changer. Doh! I should have given the +1 613 482 0910 phone number as an alternative way to reach me. > This is probably what Jay got back. > >>> mouse at rodents-montreal.org (reading BANNER): 550-Not interested in mail from somewhere whose webmail system > 550-doesn't record the client IP address in a proper > 550-Received: from $IPADDR ... with HTTP Maybe. (That's actually missing at least one line, note.) Do you know, do you use the same provider Jay does? Looking at the records, there are some half-dozen providers that could be what's behind that. Could you, maybe, try mouse at netbsd.org and/or mouse at openface.ca, or the phone? > Perhaps you can open a gmail throwaway account? Gmail has the dubious distinction of being the sender that has earned the most stringent blocking I've ever put up. (ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/google-block.txt has the story in case anyone's interested.) Not that that's directly relevant to the question, except to the extent it indicates the high regard in which I don't hold them. > Not sure what your means are. I have several in case I need to get > around problems like this. And Google does allow you to use your > email client via pop and imap. But (a) it still means being willing to tolerate Google, and (b) even if it permits use of POP and/or IMAP to fetch mail, it still requires use of some God-damned Web crap to set it up. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From phil at viscom.net Fri Jan 16 15:42:03 2015 From: phil at viscom.net (phil at viscom.net) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:42:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Lanier Model 103 Word Processor Message-ID: <4741.209.62.192.56.1421444523.squirrel@home.viscom.net> All, Recently picked me up a new project ($0 projects are the best), a Lanier Model 103 word processing system, complete with printer, but void of any diskettes. I'm going to have a rummage around here at work, but it would appear that AES used hard-sectored 5.25" floppies in the machine. Apparently it'll boot the AES word processing suite, or alternatively CP/M (It's an 8080 based machine). Something had eaten(!) the ceramic suppression caps off the video card, so I replaced those and the tantalum beads for good measure. Now when I power it up I get a raster instead of a horizontal line. It's a bit stretched vertically, so I've got the video circuitry module out to redo the electrolytics in that next. Unfortunately none of the adjustments on the board are marked as to their function. I'm going to take a few guesses as to what's what, and experiment a little. I need to get me a hex tool for what I'm guessing is the width coil. There are 2 adjustable inductors and 4 variable resistors. A question- being as I currently do not have any discs for it, does anyone: 1) Know what this should display if you power it up without a floppy in? (If anything at all, would be useful to see if the thing even has a sane heartbeat in some fashion). 2) Have a service manual for one? 3) Know of a source of discs (either AES, copies, or even just CP/M)? I know 3 is a hugely long shot. It's not a badly built machine, and it would be nice to get repaired and be able to use it to write things on. --Phil From chrise at pobox.com Fri Jan 16 19:05:26 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:05:26 -0600 Subject: Paper tape standard In-Reply-To: References: , <7542EF2ED1C944E7973EA70B6C9F7511@deskjara> Message-ID: <8E2B7DB1-7F76-4E9B-AB0F-8E28E8C417C0@pobox.com> Couldn't you make the punch these days with a row of lasers? or maybe a single laser that sweeps across the tape laterally? Bonus because there wouldn't be any of that messy chad left. It'd just be up in smoke, so to speak :-) Chris On January 16, 2015 2:09:32 PM CST, tony duell wrote: > >> OBA! I'm crazy for creating a paper reader/perfurator! :D This is >an old >> dream of mine, although I have no specific computers who use it, nor >any >> specimen of perfored tape around. But I find it to be just beautiful >:) > >The reader is relatively easy to make at home, at least if you are >happy with a >photoelectric one. If you trigger off the feed holes, you don't need a >sprocket >drive, a capstan and pnch roller is fine. This is the sort of thing you >can make >in a good home workshop. > >The punch is a lot harder. Making the punch pins and die block, and >then >correctly grinding and hardening the former is not going to be easy. >Mechanically the rest may not look too hard (the Facit 4070 used a set >of rotary solenoids and linkages, one per pin), but it is still a major > >project. > >-tony -- Chris Elmquist From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Jan 16 19:50:05 2015 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:50:05 -0800 Subject: Paper tape standard In-Reply-To: <8E2B7DB1-7F76-4E9B-AB0F-8E28E8C417C0@pobox.com> References: , <7542EF2ED1C944E7973EA70B6C9F7511@deskjara> <8E2B7DB1-7F76-4E9B-AB0F-8E28E8C417C0@pobox.com> Message-ID: <54B9BFCD.2070008@crash.com> On 01/16/2015 05:05 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Couldn't you make the punch these days with a row of lasers? "... with a row of _frickin'_ lasers?" Fixed that for you. :D With no apologies to Mike Meyers... --S. From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 20:21:37 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 18:21:37 -0800 Subject: Subject: Knowledge Base In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90155409D4A4454FAB950BF257675B67@workshop> > I'm in. But instead of repair/restoration logs, I'd like to also contribute > with specific knowledge which I believe to be more searcheable and a better > contribution than just logs. Maybe we could have both (logs and knowledge base)? They serve different purposes. In my other group we have a mail list, a wiki for basic knowledge and a build logs threads in a Forum based package. The build logs are searchable. It works really well. The least frequently contributed to is the wiki, however it's the most helpful for new members. But it's a lot of work and makes things more complicated. Just food for thoughts, as I said the current mailing list is simple yet immensely useful, nothing wrong with it. And God bless bitsavers. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 16 20:34:42 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 20:34:42 -0600 Subject: Subject: Knowledge Base In-Reply-To: <90155409D4A4454FAB950BF257675B67@workshop> References: <90155409D4A4454FAB950BF257675B67@workshop> Message-ID: <005f01d031fe$267c02e0$737408a0$@classiccmp.org> It was written... Maybe we could have both (logs and knowledge base)? ---- Yep. That was my thought. Just food for thoughts, as I said the current mailing list is simple yet immensely useful, nothing wrong with it. ---- Yes, these things would be in addition to the list, definitely not replacing it. The list isn't going anywhere :) And God bless bitsavers. ----- DITTO. J From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jan 16 20:47:09 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 21:47:09 -0500 Subject: the old VHS series on the history of computing In-Reply-To: <029801d031cb$773d90f0$65b8b2d0$@com> References: <029801d031cb$773d90f0$65b8b2d0$@com> Message-ID: <54B9CD2D.4050901@compsys.to> >Electronics Plus wrote: >http://waxy.org/2008/06/the_machine_that_changed_the_world/ > >He found all 5 episodes, digitized them, and uploaded them. > >Cindy Croxton > Check From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 23:41:35 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 03:41:35 -0200 Subject: Diablo disk unit Message-ID: Can anyone shed a light on this? http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-616158449-diablo-series-unidade-de-disco-30-_JM Thanks! Alexandre From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 17 00:15:03 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 06:15:03 +0000 Subject: Diablo disk unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Can anyone shed a light on this? > http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-616158449-diablo-series-unidade-de-disco-30-_JM It appears to be a standard Diablo model 30 disk drive. This is a front loading hard disk, similar to an RK05, in fact it was used on the PDP11 with the RK11-C (but not RK11-D [1]) controller. There are 2 versions, low and high density, which DEC badged as the RK02 and RK03. The latter is format-compatible with the RK05, the former (which is much less useful) has half the bit rate. It needs an external +/-15V power supply (I can't remember if it needs +5V too). [1] It uses 1-of-n selects, not the binary select scheme used by the RK11-D. It is possible to kludge in a decoder to get the high density model working on an RK11D. AFAIK the RK11-C supports both data rates, the RK11-D doesn't, so the low density version is pretty much RK11-C only. One oddity is the head positioner. It's a permanent magnet commutator type motor with a rack and pinion mechanism. -tony From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Sat Jan 17 01:24:59 2015 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 08:24:59 +0100 Subject: Testing VT101 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <003401d031de$08dc7230$1a955690$@ntlworld.com> References: <003401d031de$08dc7230$1a955690$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6605AF16-6C9D-417E-80F4-0D36EBB0B4FD@familie-rauhut.eu> In my case of vt100 powersupply test (i hope that i remember corretly) i need to load 5V with a small load. With nothing connected, some voltages fail. Marco > Am 16.01.2015 um 23:44 schrieb Robert Jarratt : > > I am looking to test the power supply board of my VT101 before connecting it > all up and switching it on. > > > > Reading to the Pocket Service Manual it seems to suggest that you can check > the outputs of the power supply board with the terminal controller board and > the video monitor board both disconnected. This would mean no load on the > power supply. Does this seem wise? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob From useddec at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 01:36:02 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 01:36:02 -0600 Subject: Diablo disk unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a few RK11-C backplanes and a RK03 if anyone is interested. Feel free to contact me offlist. Thanks, Paul On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 12:15 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > > Can anyone shed a light on this? > > > http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-616158449-diablo-series-unidade-de-disco-30-_JM > > It appears to be a standard Diablo model 30 disk drive. This is a front > loading hard disk, similar > to an RK05, in fact it was used on the PDP11 with the RK11-C (but not > RK11-D [1]) controller. > > There are 2 versions, low and high density, which DEC badged as the RK02 > and RK03. The latter > is format-compatible with the RK05, the former (which is much less useful) > has half the bit > rate. It needs an external +/-15V power supply (I can't remember if it > needs +5V too). > > [1] It uses 1-of-n selects, not the binary select scheme used by the > RK11-D. It is possible > to kludge in a decoder to get the high density model working on an RK11D. > AFAIK the > RK11-C supports both data rates, the RK11-D doesn't, so the low density > version is pretty > much RK11-C only. > > One oddity is the head positioner. It's a permanent magnet commutator type > motor > with a rack and pinion mechanism. > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 16 18:18:55 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 16:18:55 -0800 Subject: Lanier Model 103 Word Processor In-Reply-To: <4741.209.62.192.56.1421444523.squirrel@home.viscom.net> References: <4741.209.62.192.56.1421444523.squirrel@home.viscom.net> Message-ID: <54B9AA6F.8060305@sydex.com> On 01/16/2015 01:42 PM, phil at viscom.net wrote: > I know 3 is a hugely long shot. It's not a badly built machine, and it would be > nice to get repaired and be able to use it to write things on. I look through my files, but I'm doubtful. The good news is that these were very common; the USG used them quite a bit as did many law offices. So there could well be some disks still out there. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 17 09:17:46 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 07:17:46 -0800 Subject: Diablo disk unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54BA7D1A.1060302@bitsavers.org> On 1/16/15 9:41 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Can anyone shed a light on this? > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/diablo/81502A_Series_30_Disk_Drives_Product_Description_Sep75.pdf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 17 10:53:30 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 16:53:30 +0000 Subject: Testing VT101 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <6605AF16-6C9D-417E-80F4-0D36EBB0B4FD@familie-rauhut.eu> References: <003401d031de$08dc7230$1a955690$@ntlworld.com>, <6605AF16-6C9D-417E-80F4-0D36EBB0B4FD@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: > In my case of vt100 powersupply test (i hope that i remember corretly) i need to load 5V with a small load. > With nothing connected, some voltages fail. >From what I remember, the VT100 and VT101 PSUs are very different. The former is a fairly conventional SMPSU, albeit one which (as was typical for DEC at the time) has the control circuitry on the output side of the isolation barrier and a little linear startup PSU. The VT101 has a large mains transformer and a regulator board, I think some of those regulators are switchers, but they run from a lowish input voltage (not mains) and the isolation is provided by the big transformer. I don't know about running them with no load, although I could well believe the VT101 PSU will work correctly like that. -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 17 11:09:33 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:09:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Shipping antique computers Message-ID: <20150117170933.16E6E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I've recently shipped an antique computer across-country (in the USA), and for those who need to do this, I can point out the shipper (well, technically, a broker - they work with a range of companies who actually do the work) which/whom I used: Shiphawk 805-335-2432 http://shiphawk.com Having learned (with me :-) a number of lessons about the potholes and pitfalls of shipping antique computers, they should be pretty well up to speed if someone else needs to do some shipping of same. Key point: shipping of largish things is much cheaper if the item is palletized. There are two kinds of shippers: cargo/freight people (I forget the exact term), who only deal in palletized things, and so-called 'white glove' shippers, who will move anything (they usually do furniture, hence the name). I know palletization's not cheap, but you'll probably save more in shipping than you spend on the preparation. Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jan 17 11:18:59 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 09:18:59 -0800 Subject: Shipping antique computers In-Reply-To: <20150117170933.16E6E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150117170933.16E6E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: For palletized freight, I've used FreightQuote (a broker) a few times to ship larger computer purchases. Since I live on a rough, unpaved rural road, I specified that I'd pick up from the local terminal of whatever shipper I selected (based on price). I live fairly close to Ontario, CA, which is a major shipping hub, so I get lots of competitive quotes instead of being stuck with one trucking company with a local terminal. Very roughly, I've generally spent around $300 to move a pallet across the country. I haven't tried any "white glove" or "padded van" shippers yet. I learned of their existence back when I was contemplating getting a VAX-11/780. I ended up getting a nice, fits-on-two-pallets 11/730 system instead. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 11:35:35 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 11:35:35 -0600 Subject: Shipping antique computers In-Reply-To: <20150117170933.16E6E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150117170933.16E6E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54BA9D67.6060409@gmail.com> On 01/17/2015 11:09 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I know palletization's not cheap What's not cheap about it? Do you mean the prep-work, or the actual shipping? Pallets seem to be readily obtainable in the US (unlike other countries, where companies like to re-use them rather than treat them as a waste item), so I'm surprised that a person can't acquire one, load it up securely*, and then call a freight company to have it moved. * except that do guidelines for this exist? Maximum heights, type and number of straps required etc.? cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 11:45:03 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 11:45:03 -0600 Subject: Shipping antique computers In-Reply-To: References: <20150117170933.16E6E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54BA9F9F.6090109@gmail.com> On 01/17/2015 11:18 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > For palletized freight, I've used FreightQuote (a broker) a few times to > ship larger computer purchases. Since I live on a rough, unpaved rural > road, I specified that I'd pick up from the local terminal of whatever > shipper I selected (based on price). I live fairly close to Ontario, CA, > which is a major shipping hub, so I get lots of competitive quotes > instead of being stuck with one trucking company with a local terminal. > Very roughly, I've generally spent around $300 to move a pallet across > the country. > > I haven't tried any "white glove" or "padded van" shippers yet. I > learned of their existence back when I was contemplating getting a > VAX-11/780. I ended up getting a nice, fits-on-two-pallets 11/730 system > instead. :) That's a big problem I've found with trying to work out how to ship the part of my collection that's still in the UK to the US - UK shippers seem to go extremely quiet when they find out that I live miles inland in the middle of nowhere; they can take on getting stuff to a sea port, but that doesn't really help when it's still more than a thousand miles from the desired destination. I have a nasty feeling that I'll have to go with one of the "white glove" companies at many times the cost, just because they'll be the only ones who will handle the full journey. The other option would be to split it, dealing with one company for the overseas freight, another to get my stuff somewhere vaguely-close, then to hire a van and do the last few hundred miles myself - but even thinking about the logistics of that (such that stuff isn't sitting around for any length of time, which probably involves huge fines) gives me a headache! cheers Jules From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jan 17 12:07:53 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:07:53 -0800 Subject: Shipping antique computers In-Reply-To: <54BA9F9F.6090109@gmail.com> References: <20150117170933.16E6E18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54BA9F9F.6090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54BAA4F9.8040104@shiresoft.com> On 1/17/15 9:45 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 01/17/2015 11:18 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> For palletized freight, I've used FreightQuote (a broker) a few times to >> ship larger computer purchases. Since I live on a rough, unpaved rural >> road, I specified that I'd pick up from the local terminal of whatever >> shipper I selected (based on price). I live fairly close to Ontario, CA, >> which is a major shipping hub, so I get lots of competitive quotes >> instead of being stuck with one trucking company with a local terminal. >> Very roughly, I've generally spent around $300 to move a pallet across >> the country. >> >> I haven't tried any "white glove" or "padded van" shippers yet. I >> learned of their existence back when I was contemplating getting a >> VAX-11/780. I ended up getting a nice, fits-on-two-pallets 11/730 system >> instead. :) > > That's a big problem I've found with trying to work out how to ship > the part of my collection that's still in the UK to the US - UK > shippers seem to go extremely quiet when they find out that I live > miles inland in the middle of nowhere; they can take on getting stuff > to a sea port, but that doesn't really help when it's still more than > a thousand miles from the desired destination. > > I have a nasty feeling that I'll have to go with one of the "white > glove" companies at many times the cost, just because they'll be the > only ones who will handle the full journey. The other option would be > to split it, dealing with one company for the overseas freight, > another to get my stuff somewhere vaguely-close, then to hire a van > and do the last few hundred miles myself - but even thinking about the > logistics of that (such that stuff isn't sitting around for any length > of time, which probably involves huge fines) gives me a headache! > Having moved my entire collection this past year (by myself with help from friends), I can attest to having stuff palletized makes the job a whole lot easier. The only things that I didn't palletize where the big (heavy) items that already had casters (of sorts). In the end I think I moved 30 pallets. Here in the US they're not particularly expensive. I found a local manufacturer of pallets and was able to get them for < $6 each. I would load 8-10 on my truck to take them to where I was packaging everything. Along the way I had also acquired a pallet jack so it wasn't hard to move stuff around (even with 1000-1500lbs of stuff on a pallet). All the "small" stuff was wrapped and put into boxes and those boxes were put on the pallet. Once a pallet was sufficiently "full", I used shipping strapping to secure everything and then wrapped everything in "shrink wrap". I used the plastic strapping with a manual tool but for really heavy loads, you probably want to use steel and a much more expensive tensioner and crimper. Loading and unloading the truck once everything was palletized was a breeze. The trick with palletizing heavier gear is getting it on/off the pallet. The biggest stuff I put on a pallet were my Symbolics 3640s. For those I used my equipment lift (sort of a hand operated fork lift). Also all of my loose RK05, RL01/2 and Fujitsu Eagles were all loaded on pallets this way. Here are some pictures of the stuff after I've moved it into my new shop but still on the pallets: http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/Almost_moved.html. By the time I was done, the entire downstairs of the new shop was filled with pallets...then I started to unpack. ;-) However, getting back to the original question. I've shipped stuff with both "white glove" movers and just regular freight companies. I've had reasonable success with both. It all depends upon what you're moving and how it's packed for shipping. If you don't have it packed/packaged, then "white glove" is the way to go especially if it's just "big stuff". However, if you have lots of "little" stuff that you can pack into boxes, then putting them on a pallet and just using freight is probably cheaper. TTFN - Guy From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 17 12:09:42 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 18:09:42 -0000 Subject: Testing VT101 Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <003401d031de$08dc7230$1a955690$@ntlworld.com>, <6605AF16-6C9D-417E-80F4-0D36EBB0B4FD@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: <00be01d03280$c4aeff30$4e0cfd90$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 17 January 2015 16:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Testing VT101 Power Supply > > > In my case of vt100 powersupply test (i hope that i remember corretly) i need > to load 5V with a small load. > > With nothing connected, some voltages fail. > > From what I remember, the VT100 and VT101 PSUs are very different. The > former is a fairly conventional SMPSU, albeit one which (as was typical for DEC > at the time) has the control circuitry on the output side of the isolation barrier > and a little linear startup PSU. The VT101 has a large mains transformer and a > regulator board, I think some of those regulators are switchers, but they run > from a lowish input voltage (not mains) and the isolation is provided by the big > transformer. Yes, that is right. There is a big transformer and the outputs are 10V and 18V (the service guide for latter shows 20V on the diagram and says 16V in the text!). > > I don't know about running them with no load, although I could well believe the > VT101 PSU will work correctly like that. In the end I created a dummy load. The outputs all look fine and there is no ripple. So I am very pleased with the state of the PSU. I am replacing a couple of caps on the monitor control board, one because it has high ESR and one (C439) because this page (https://trmm.net/VT100) says it is underrated. Then I am going to have to bite the bullet and connect it up, hoping the monitor control board is OK and isn't going to damage the flyback or something else. Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 17 12:28:53 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:28:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Shipping antique computers Message-ID: <20150117182853.262A418C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor > http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/Almost_moved.html Doesn't work (for me) as a deep link; I had to go through: http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html first. I have to say, you've probably made 99.9% of the list green with envy with those photos... :-) > I've shipped stuff with both "white glove" movers and just regular > freight companies. ... It all depends upon what you're moving and how > it's packed for shipping. If you don't have it packed/packaged, then > "white glove" is the way to go especially if it's just "big stuff". More importantly, I'm not sure the commercial people will _take_ stuff unless it's on a pallet. I originally tried to ship a group of DEC corporate cabinets (with stuff in them - ~400 lbs per) via non-white-glove people. (I didn't care if things got dinged a bit during shipping, and hey, it was on wheels, right? And although I didn't have a loading dock, they said they could send a lift-gate truck, and I was happy with kerb-side delivery.) Then they found out it wasn't on pallets, and they wouldn't take it; I then had to switch to a white-glove firm. And that's when I got the bad news - it cost twice as much, for the same volume/weight. (They send a team, not just one driver.) So white-glove has a major downside, IMO. Noel From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sat Jan 17 13:23:08 2015 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:23:08 -0600 Subject: HP 9836 Available in the Houston TX area Message-ID: <006401d0328b$07507260$15f15720$@com> Anyone here interested in an HP 9836? One of the keys is broken off but present. It boots up but reports some memory issue. I've had it for a long time but don't have the time nor interest any more to work with it. Heavy box so local pickup preferred but if you want to arrange and pay for shipping we can try. Located in Houston TX. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 17 15:21:40 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:21:40 -0800 Subject: FTGH: Pioneer DRM-602X 6-CD changer In-Reply-To: <201501162008.PAA09635@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201501162008.PAA09635@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <54BAD264.1020008@sydex.com> On 01/16/2015 12:08 PM, Mouse wrote: > I have this six-disc CD changer by Pioneer which I do not expect to > have further use for - or, more precisely, the chance of future use is > small enough I don't consider it worth the space it takes to store it. > I had a couple of those--I don't remember the brands--both were standard half-height devices. One was SCSI, the other ATAPI. 2X devices. There's very little software out there that knows to take advantage of the changer feature. One gave up the ghost with 3 CDs inside--it wasn't simple to get them out. They eventually joined a bunch of other CD-ROM readers and were recycled when I went to CD-RW type devices, which were also much faster. To the best of my recollection, both were purchased via the old OnSale auction site. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 19:22:24 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 17:22:24 -0800 Subject: Info about Scenic Computer Systems Corp. Model One Message-ID: <54BB0AD0.4030702@gmail.com> Hi all -- Was given this machine today, it's a Scenic Comptuer Systems Corporation Model One. It's a 68000 based machine with a custom (I assume) 44-pin bus with two 8" dual-sided floppies and four serial ports. And it was built right here in Seattle, WA :). The serial number on the CPU board is 9, which makes me wonder how many of these were produced. I powered it up after giving it an examination and I get a boot monitor prompt out of it. I can't find much information at all on this machine, a brief writeup in an Infoworld magazine from '83 indicates that it was a UCSD Pascal machine, but that's about all I know. Anyone have any info on this thing? Better yet, anyone know of any surviving software? (Well, I can dream...) Thanks as always, Josh From evan at snarc.net Sat Jan 17 19:57:07 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:57:07 -0500 Subject: Another VCF East update - Wes Clark Message-ID: <54BB12F3.1020803@snarc.net> There are still three months until VCF East (April 17-19), but we are charging toward it at full steam! What's going on at the show? - There will be 16 technical classes on Friday. - We're at 18 exhibits and counting (30-ish expected) - We have four very special events planned: 1. Restored Straight-8 debut (Friday lunchtime); 2. Ted Nelson lecture (Saturday morning); 3. Just announced: Wes Clark lecture (Saturday night dinner -- very limited tickets available); and 4. Bob Frankston lecture (Sunday morning). From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Jan 17 21:53:00 2015 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (jbdigriz) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 22:53:00 -0500 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: <54A8357C.6090908@bitsavers.org> References: <54A810EE.4000903@bitsavers.org> <54A8357C.6090908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20150117225300.04242b00@hn03.lan> On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 10:31:24 -0800 Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/3/15 9:25 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > I've never seen a TI > > 990 system in the wild, and only a few folks are displaying 990 > > architecture SBCs or actual TI-990 systems so the obscurity factor > > is there a little bit. > > I have at least 6 990s (/4 /10 /12) and several truckloads of > boards/documentation/software that no one here has expressed any > interest in after talking about them a couple of times over the > years. Dave Pitts has several and has written an emulator that runs > most of the OSes for them http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ti990.html > Too bad they are 3000 miles away from me; shipping would be a killer :^(. Can't count the times I had 990 stuff lined up to get, and, well, stuff happened. C'est la vie, etc. Still have my /10 and BS1500, though, incredibly, and most of my 4A and Geneve stuff, although not all in the best condition, now. Hanging on to it all through a lot of trials, trauma, and general BS turned me into a bit of an antisocial jerk for a while, but I'm still glad that I did. For Caron: I followed this thread with interest, because lately I've been considering some 9900/9995/99000-based projects, and/or add-on cards for 990's and even 4a's, or maybe a homebrew, so the chipsets on Ebay look promising. Look like some kind of 9900 and 9995-based MSX2+ SBC's, like a souped-up Tomy Tutor or something. Those Altera chips would be the key to system, but I don't see any mention of documentation, schematics, etc. Presumably these are hot hobbyist items in Japan or the MSX community, and are well-documented somewhere, but I'm not familiar with them. The 9902 is not present in the 99/4A console. You need an RS/232 peripheral or card for that. Readily available from any of sources, though, like Al says. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 22:09:43 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 02:09:43 -0200 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs References: <54A810EE.4000903@bitsavers.org> <54A8357C.6090908@bitsavers.org> <20150117225300.04242b00@hn03.lan> Message-ID: > documentation, schematics, etc. Presumably these are hot hobbyist items > in Japan or the MSX community, and are well-documented somewhere, but > I'm not familiar with them. Need anything MSX? Here I am :) From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 23:11:30 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 23:11:30 -0600 Subject: Mystery ICs - AB 36D1024 Message-ID: Can't search up any data on these chips, they're marked with the Allen Bradley logo, and the code is 36D1024. Date codes are mid-1974. I have about 30 pcs. of them. But what are they? From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Jan 18 01:15:25 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 01:15:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: FTGH: Pioneer DRM-602X 6-CD changer In-Reply-To: <54BAD264.1020008@sydex.com> References: <201501162008.PAA09635@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54BAD264.1020008@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jan 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/16/2015 12:08 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> I have this six-disc CD changer by Pioneer which I do not expect to >> have further use for - or, more precisely, the chance of future use is >> small enough I don't consider it worth the space it takes to store it. > > I had a couple of those--I don't remember the brands--both were standard > half-height devices. One was SCSI, the other ATAPI. 2X devices. > There's very little software out there that knows to take advantage of > the changer feature. > > One gave up the ghost with 3 CDs inside--it wasn't simple to get them > out. > > They eventually joined a bunch of other CD-ROM readers and were recycled > when I went to CD-RW type devices, which were also much faster. > > To the best of my recollection, both were purchased via the old OnSale > auction site. These Pioneer cdrom changers are extremely well made. I own quite a number of them and have serviced tons of them over the years. The outer metal cover slides off after removing 6 screws and the pc board hinges up to allow for servicing of the changer's mechanical parts. They are quite complex and have a lot of moving parts, but they are 100% serviceable. These particular changers present themselves to the system as one SCSI id with multiple LUNs, which most OS will then map as 6 individual drives. The changer will automatically switch discs when you attempt to access a different drive. One major limitation (intentionally done by Pioneer as a halfbaked scheme to help prevent music piracy) is that these changers cannot do digital audio extraction or digital audio playback (analog audio playback works fine). I seem to remember Pioneer eventually released a firmware update (2 physical EPROM chips) for the 624X and maybe 604X to allow CDDA, but I don't know about the earlier models. Always, always, always eject the 6-disc magazine before moving or shipping these changers. They originally had a bright yellow warning label on top of the changer indicating this, but a lot of people would peel it off. If you don't eject the magazine, one of the disc trays will almost certainly swing out and damage the optics. I received a number of changers damaged just this way, including a DRM-600 where a disc tray shattered part of the support structure (the 602X, 604X and later were designed differently but the optics can still be damaged). I'm not sure if the service manuals are still available from Pioneer, but I still have original hardcopies of the 604X and 624X manuals. [I would like to find a set of Pioneer DRM-5004X service manuals if someone reading this in the future happens across any.] From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 18 01:18:08 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 23:18:08 -0800 Subject: Mystery ICs - AB 36D1024 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54BB5E30.8010800@sydex.com> On 01/17/2015 09:11 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Can't search up any data on these chips, they're marked with the Allen > Bradley logo, and the code is 36D1024. > > Date codes are mid-1974. I have about 30 pcs. of them. > > But what are they? Resistor networks. Easy enough to take out your ohmmeter and figure out what's inside. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Jan 18 01:20:32 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 01:20:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: Mystery ICs - AB 36D1024 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jan 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > Can't search up any data on these chips, they're marked with the Allen > Bradley logo, and the code is 36D1024. > > Date codes are mid-1974. I have about 30 pcs. of them. > > But what are they? Could they possibly be DIP format resistor networks? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 18 04:12:41 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 10:12:41 -0000 Subject: VT100 Monitor Alignment Tool Message-ID: <00d201d03307$4b752360$e25f6a20$@ntlworld.com> The horizontal width on my VT101 needs adjusting, so I am in need of a monitor alignment tool (PN 29-23190-00). I have tried searching the web to see if I can found out what they look like so that I can improvise something but I have failed to find a picture of the DEC one. Does anyone have a picture of one? Is it just a long thin screwdriver? Is it the same as a generic monitor alignment tool like this one: http://eu.suzohapp.com/product/H92-0196-00/universal-monitor-alignment-tool- kit? Even so the picture on that site makes it hard for me to tell what I need to improvise something. Regards Rob PS The VT101 is partly working, I think the monitor control side is fine, but the terminal controller board seems to have problems, I only get random characters displayed when I power it up and it does not respond to any keys, not even SETUP L From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 04:37:30 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 10:37:30 -0000 Subject: VT100 Monitor Alignment Tool In-Reply-To: <00d201d03307$4b752360$e25f6a20$@ntlworld.com> References: <00d201d03307$4b752360$e25f6a20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0d4701d0330a$c3094ac0$491be040$@gmail.com> Rob, I can't see what the core type is in the coil, but it will be a tool like a screwdriver or hex key that fits snugly in the end of the core. Don't be tempted to use a screwdriver as you can split the core. Some examples here:- http://www.minute-man.com/acatalog/TV_and_Radio_Alignment_Tools.html if anyone can tell me if it's a slot or a hex key then I may have something suitable. Dave -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jarratt Sent: 18 January 2015 10:13 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: VT100 Monitor Alignment Tool The horizontal width on my VT101 needs adjusting, so I am in need of a monitor alignment tool (PN 29-23190-00). I have tried searching the web to see if I can found out what they look like so that I can improvise something but I have failed to find a picture of the DEC one. Does anyone have a picture of one? Is it just a long thin screwdriver? Is it the same as a generic monitor alignment tool like this one: http://eu.suzohapp.com/product/H92-0196-00/universal-monitor-alignment-tool- kit? Even so the picture on that site makes it hard for me to tell what I need to improvise something. Regards Rob PS The VT101 is partly working, I think the monitor control side is fine, but the terminal controller board seems to have problems, I only get random characters displayed when I power it up and it does not respond to any keys, not even SETUP L From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 17 13:11:52 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 14:11:52 -0500 Subject: Maxtor XT-2190 Message-ID: <20150117191152.GA3324@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Someone was using my MFM reader to read a Maxtor XT-2190 and was having problems. From the looks of it the heads are out of alignment. Does anyone know if this drive has a microstep mode like some Seagates have? I didn't find any mention in the manuals I could find. Some heads are mostly unreadable, some heads are mostly ok and some were unreadable on cylinder 0 and on other cylinders the header says they are one cylinder less than where it stepped to. Some of the other heads headers said the cylinder is what was expected. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 13:40:52 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 14:40:52 -0500 Subject: Maxtor XT-2190 References: <20150117191152.GA3324@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <00215A7D4919421C88314FA413E3737C@310e2> Sometimes trying different orientations to take up any slack and/or the old trick of cooling it in the freezer for a little while can make some unreadable cylinders readable; might be worth a try. Also, make sure the power supply is up to the task; these things take a lot of power and I've had intermittent errors when using a slightly inadequate power supply that cleared up totally with a more substantial one. Good luck. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Gesswein" To: Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 2:11 PM Subject: Maxtor XT-2190 > Someone was using my MFM reader to read a Maxtor XT-2190 and was having > problems. From the looks of it the heads are out of alignment. Does > anyone know if this drive has a microstep mode like some Seagates have? > I didn't find any mention in the manuals I could find. > > Some heads are mostly unreadable, some heads are mostly ok and some > were unreadable on cylinder 0 and on other cylinders the header says they > are one cylinder less than where it stepped to. Some of the other heads > headers > said the cylinder is what was expected. > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 18:29:10 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 19:29:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Maxtor XT-2190 In-Reply-To: <20150117191152.GA3324@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20150117191152.GA3324@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jan 2015, David Gesswein wrote: > Someone was using my MFM reader to read a Maxtor XT-2190 and was having > problems. From the looks of it the heads are out of alignment. Does > anyone know if this drive has a microstep mode like some Seagates have? > I didn't find any mention in the manuals I could find. Hi, David. That drive has a dedicated servo surface (thus the odd number of heads). Not sure there's any concept of microstepping in that arrangement. I'll also second the comment about hefty power requirements. Mine just about dim the lights in the room on spin-up. -- From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 17 22:22:03 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:22:03 -0800 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: <20150117225300.04242b00@hn03.lan> References: , <54A810EE.4000903@bitsavers.org>, , <54A8357C.6090908@bitsavers.org>, <20150117225300.04242b00@hn03.lan> Message-ID: I loved the 9900! it was screaming fast compared to x86 in 1980 or so. I bought one of their SBCs, the TI 990 'University Board', it came with a 200+ page course and tutorials on the processor. Later found their video chip 9918 and adapter board from Eyring Research. Other than the 99/4 these parts had little use. TI did make another stab at video chip coprocessors that ended up in the Truevision (AT&T) AT-VISTA framegrabber boards. Some trivia: The TI processors had lots of use in TI's industrial PLCs, the PM520 and PM550. I was in a design meeting with these guys, when management said 'What can we do with the PLC line to compete with Allen Bradley?' One of the more vocal TI engineers stood up, and said, 'Don't force us to use TI processors.' Their next gen PLC, the 560, was a standard bus, VME and 68000 based. I think it still ships today under the Siemens brand, TI sold off the PLC group and got out of programmable logic controllers altogether. > Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 22:53:00 -0500 > From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs > > On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 10:31:24 -0800 > Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 1/3/15 9:25 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > > I've never seen a TI > > > 990 system in the wild, and only a few folks are displaying 990 > > > architecture SBCs or actual TI-990 systems so the obscurity factor > > > is there a little bit. > > > > I have at least 6 990s (/4 /10 /12) and several truckloads of > > boards/documentation/software that no one here has expressed any > > interest in after talking about them a couple of times over the > > years. Dave Pitts has several and has written an emulator that runs > > most of the OSes for them http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ti990.html > > > > Too bad they are 3000 miles away from me; shipping would be a > killer :^(. Can't count the times I had 990 stuff lined up to get, and, > well, stuff happened. C'est la vie, etc. Still have my /10 and BS1500, > though, incredibly, and most of my 4A and Geneve stuff, although not > all in the best condition, now. Hanging on to it all through a lot of > trials, trauma, and general BS turned me into a bit of an antisocial > jerk for a while, but I'm still glad that I did. > > For Caron: I followed this thread with interest, because > lately I've been considering some 9900/9995/99000-based projects, > and/or add-on cards for 990's and even 4a's, or maybe a homebrew, so > the chipsets on Ebay look promising. Look like some kind of 9900 and > 9995-based MSX2+ SBC's, like a souped-up Tomy Tutor or something. Those > Altera chips would be the key to system, but I don't see any mention of > documentation, schematics, etc. Presumably these are hot hobbyist items > in Japan or the MSX community, and are well-documented somewhere, but > I'm not familiar with them. > > The 9902 is not present in the 99/4A console. You need an RS/232 > peripheral or card for that. Readily available from any of sources, > though, like Al says. > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 18 09:06:06 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 07:06:06 -0800 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: <20150117225300.04242b00@hn03.lan> References: <54A810EE.4000903@bitsavers.org> <54A8357C.6090908@bitsavers.org> <20150117225300.04242b00@hn03.lan> Message-ID: <54BBCBDE.7080107@bitsavers.org> On 1/17/15 7:53 PM, jbdigriz wrote: > Still have my /10 and BS1500, > It would be nice to get firmware dumps and pictures of the BS1500 Not many of those have turned up. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jan 18 09:22:20 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 10:22:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: FTGH: Pioneer DRM-602X 6-CD changer In-Reply-To: References: <201501162008.PAA09635@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54BAD264.1020008@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201501181522.KAA12822@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> I have this six-disc CD changer by Pioneer [...] Oh, one addendum: since the first posting I've found five more magazines for it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 10:07:38 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 10:07:38 -0600 Subject: Restoring a Compaq Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54BBDA4A.5060708@gmail.com> On 01/14/2015 12:03 AM, David Griffith wrote: > 3) I can't get the keyboard to respond at all. I tried touching the > capacitive pads with bare fingers, anti-static bag material, etc. Nothing > works. Solution: I don't know. I suspect the scan driver and/or the sense > amp chips may be bad. These are Exar 22-950-3B (sense driver) and > 22-908-93A (sense amp). Does anyone here know a decent source of these > and/or data sheets? I know they're more or less a straight IBM PC clone, but is the keyboard link portion compatible at the hardware level, such that you could hook up a PC XT keyboard just to verify that the system is responding to a keyboard at all? cheers Jules From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jan 18 11:05:43 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:05:43 -0500 Subject: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000 In-Reply-To: <20150113164957.08C1218C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150113164957.08C1218C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54BBE7E7.4060007@cimmeri.com> On 1/13/2015 11:49 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: js > > > as a frequent buyer, it also highly annoys me when systems on eBay or > > Craiglist are found and rebroadcasted here. Now, my chance find has > > been made aware to a much wider audience, the competition shoots way > > up, and I have to pay more. > > Since I'm one of the people who has been doing this (e.g. recent PDP-8 > postings), I'd like to weigh in with a few thoughts on this topic. > > To begin, as to the point that it's costing you more money, I'm afraid I > don't find that a big factor, for several reasons. First, as Mark Tapley > explained down-thread: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-January/002533.html > > from the point of view of saving history, higher prices are better. If people > start to think of these older machines as possibly collectable items of some > value, they are less likely to toss them into the trash without further ado. ** That's true... but what makes those prices go higher more than anything are demand and rarity. So someone's got to want the machine to begin with, and then the harder it is to fine, to more of a price it can command. From that angle, sometimes it's good when machines are recycled. It increases the rarity of those left... but with the caveat that we don't want them all to be thrown out. I It's a difficult question to answer, as to, "how many of any machine example do we need to save?" And will humans feel it necessary to keep saving examples of all the machines they ever make, ad infinitum? Perhaps at some point, we'll need to examine our materialistic values a bit more soberly. > (Yes, yes, I know, not all old computers are worth saving - just like not all > old cars are, either. But unless you ask someone who knows, you don't know > whether your old junker is a clunker or a jewel in the rough.) Second, you're > only getting that item 'for cheap' because some other collector, to whom it > might be even more emotionally important, doesn't know of it. > > I do have more sympathy with the point of view that says 'I spent a lot of > time trawling through eBay, etc listings looking for that one diamond in a > sea of pebbles; why should all my work be devalued by someone who just posts > the listing so everyone can get on board?' I have some sympathy for that take > (especially since I myself spend a fair amount of time looking through eBay > for PDP-11 stuff :-) ** Yes, that is the point I was making, about the frustration of time spent and potentially lost. > but for me it's out-weighed by the 'hey, I have this > information, it's no use to me, I'd like to share it with people for whom it > might be highly useful'. ** Ok, but part of the the fun is the treasure hunt itself, and it can be argued that you're short circuiting that for the people who really are out there looking. Of course, some will be grateful that you've saved them the time... as they might not be in it for the treasure hunt. > > Auctions are not collegial -- they're competitive, and since when is > > competition a negative? > > I'm not sure of your point here (the second part seems to be at odds with the > first), but I will say that I think widely-attended auctions, starting at a > modest price, are desirable: they are the best way to set the _true_ value of > something. ** Agreed. > Too many items on eBay have some incredibly high Buy-It-Now price, and they > sit forever, until someone really desperate buys it - which just encourages > other sellers to ask for un-realistic amounts. So I applaud the sellers who > put things up for real auctions. ** Agreed. - JS From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 11:23:52 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 09:23:52 -0800 Subject: Shipping antique computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36BA6914-5896-4560-9851-6A2C07C3DB74@gmail.com> Actually I need to learn more about this. What do they exactly do when they "palletize" things? Does that include wrapping/protecting the item and lifting/anchoring it on the pallet? How small and how large an item can they deal with? How much does the service cost? How do you "unpalletize it" at the other end? Do you need a forklift or a hydraulic pallet moving thingy on the receiving end? Marc >> On 01/17/2015 11:09 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> I know palletization's not cheap From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Jan 18 11:47:32 2015 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (jbdigriz) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:47:32 -0500 Subject: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs In-Reply-To: <54BBCBDE.7080107@bitsavers.org> References: <54A810EE.4000903@bitsavers.org> <54A8357C.6090908@bitsavers.org> <20150117225300.04242b00@hn03.lan> <54BBCBDE.7080107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20150118124732.164e1c90@hn03.lan> On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 07:06:06 -0800 Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/17/15 7:53 PM, jbdigriz wrote: > > Still have my /10 and BS1500, > > > > It would be nice to get firmware dumps and pictures of the BS1500 > Not many of those have turned up. > > > Point taken. I'm updating my website and will put something up. jbdigriz From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 18 12:55:29 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 18:55:29 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault Message-ID: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> The terminal controller board on my VT101 is not working, if it displays anything it is random characters. I have used my scope to check the 8085 CPU. It has power, it is outputting a valid clock, but there is no activity on the RD,WR and ALE pins. I am guessing the 8085 is bad, but before I go replacing it I wanted to check if anyone knew of anything else that might cause the 8085 to misbehave (ie am I seeing symptoms or a cause?). It looks to be easy to get 8085s, if I replace it I will socket it at the same time, but would rather avoid having to desolder it if the problem is elsewhere. Any advice gratefully received. Thanks Rob PS Just to check that the rest of the terminal works, I substituted the terminal controller board with one from a VT102 and it worked perfectly. So the problem is definitely on the terminal controller board. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 18 13:15:46 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:15:46 +0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > The terminal controller board on my VT101 is not working, if it displays > anything it is random characters. I have used my scope to check the 8085 > CPU. It has power, it is outputting a valid clock, but there is no activity > on the RD,WR and ALE pins. I am guessing the 8085 is bad, but before I go > replacing it I wanted to check if anyone knew of anything else that might > cause the 8085 to misbehave (ie am I seeing symptoms or a cause?). What is the state of the reset input to the 8085? In other words, is the CPU being held reset all the time? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 18 13:26:17 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:26:17 +0000 Subject: Mystery ICs - AB 36D1024 In-Reply-To: <54BB5E30.8010800@sydex.com> References: , <54BB5E30.8010800@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Resistor networks. Easy enough to take out your ohmmeter and figure out > what's inside. I have come across some custom DIP resistor networks in HP machines where it's not just isolated resistors or resistors from the pins to a common pin (the common standard configurations). With those, simple pin-pin resistance measurements are not enough ( I forget if it's enough in theory, but in practice if the resistors are wildly different values you won't do it). I seem to remember working out a method where you (a) measure resistance from each pin to all other pins strapped and (b) make a potential divider using one pin as the input, another as the output and all others strapped as the common. Repeat for all combinations of pins. Here, I think is how it works out. Suppose in (b) you apply the input to pin x and take the output from pin y. Suppose that there is a resistor r between x and y, and the parallel combination of all other resistors on pin Y has resistance R. Then the division ratio is clearly R/(r+R) Now think of (a) using pin y (the pin that was the output of the potential divider). Resistor (r) is now included in the parallel combination, so the resistance from pin y to all others strapped is (R.r)/(R+r). Dividing one by the other will give you the value of r. Repeating for all pin combinations will give you the resistor between each pair of pins -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 18 13:31:36 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:31:36 +0000 Subject: VT100 Monitor Alignment Tool In-Reply-To: <00d201d03307$4b752360$e25f6a20$@ntlworld.com> References: <00d201d03307$4b752360$e25f6a20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > The horizontal width on my VT101 needs adjusting, so I am in need of a > monitor alignment tool (PN 29-23190-00). I have tried searching the web to > see if I can found out what they look like so that I can improvise something > but I have failed to find a picture of the DEC one. Does anyone have a > picture of one? Is it just a long thin screwdriver? Is it the same as a > generic monitor alignment tool like this one: > http://eu.suzohapp.com/product/H92-0196-00/universal-monitor-alignment-tool- > kit? Even so the picture on that site makes it hard for me to tell what I > need to improvise something. Never try to adjust a ferrite core with a metal tool. You _will_ (not may) end up cracking it and causing more problems. Not to mention of course, the fact that the metal tool will affect the inductance anyway [1]. IIRC the width coil on the VT100 has a hexagonal hole in it. The tool is a plastic rod with a hexagonal end (there are only a few common sizes). There is nothing AFAIK special about the DEC one. People have made them by filing plastic rod from a model shop or a plastic knitting needle, but I think you can get the right tool [1] At one time there was a tool which consisted of a plastic rod with a ferrite slug on one end and a copper slug on the other. Putting the ferrite slug into a coil increased the inductance, putting the copper slug in decreased it. So you tried each end in turn in a coil if there was improvement you knew the coil was off-tune and which way to tweak it. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 18 14:07:30 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:07:30 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> No, I checked that and it isn't. It is an active low signal and it is high. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 18 January 2015 19:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > > > > The terminal controller board on my VT101 is not working, if it > > displays anything it is random characters. I have used my scope to > > check the 8085 CPU. It has power, it is outputting a valid clock, but > > there is no activity on the RD,WR and ALE pins. I am guessing the 8085 > > is bad, but before I go replacing it I wanted to check if anyone knew > > of anything else that might cause the 8085 to misbehave (ie am I seeing > symptoms or a cause?). > > What is the state of the reset input to the 8085? In other words, is the CPU > being held reset all the time? > > -tony > = From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 18 14:11:07 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:11:07 -0800 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> On 1/18/2015 12:07 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > No, I checked that and it isn't. It is an active low signal and it is high. > > Regards > > Rob What about the READY pin? Stuck low? Bob >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony > duell >> Sent: 18 January 2015 19:16 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >> >>> The terminal controller board on my VT101 is not working, if it >>> displays anything it is random characters. I have used my scope to >>> check the 8085 CPU. It has power, it is outputting a valid clock, but >>> there is no activity on the RD,WR and ALE pins. I am guessing the 8085 >>> is bad, but before I go replacing it I wanted to check if anyone knew >>> of anything else that might cause the 8085 to misbehave (ie am I seeing >> symptoms or a cause?). >> >> What is the state of the reset input to the 8085? In other words, is the > CPU >> being held reset all the time? >> >> -tony >> = > -- Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. I've been practising it for years. -Prince Philip From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 18 14:11:23 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:11:23 -0800 Subject: Mystery ICs - AB 36D1024 In-Reply-To: References: , <54BB5E30.8010800@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54BC136B.50306@sydex.com> On 01/18/2015 11:26 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> Resistor networks. Easy enough to take out your ohmmeter and figure out >> what's inside. > > I have come across some custom DIP resistor networks in HP machines where > it's not just isolated resistors or resistors from the pins to a common pin (the > common standard configurations). With those, simple pin-pin resistance > measurements are not enough ( I forget if it's enough in theory, but in > practice if the resistors are wildly different values you won't do it). Nope, these are resistor networks-I've got some 36Cxxxx AB parts. From what I recall, the first 2 or three numbers indicates the configuration and the trailing numbers indicate the value. Sadly, I don't have an old catalog to interpret the part numbers. --Chuck From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sun Jan 18 14:33:56 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 15:33:56 -0500 Subject: Shipping antique computers In-Reply-To: <36BA6914-5896-4560-9851-6A2C07C3DB74@gmail.com> References: <36BA6914-5896-4560-9851-6A2C07C3DB74@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150118203355.GG4901@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Marc Verdiell [150118 12:24]: > Actually I need to learn more about this. What do they exactly do when they "palletize" things? Does that include wrapping/protecting the item and lifting/anchoring it on the pallet? How small and how large an item can they deal with? How much does the service cost? How do you "unpalletize it" at the other end? Do you need a forklift or a hydraulic pallet moving thingy on the receiving end? > > Marc I've palletized and shipped computer stuff as well as pinball machines as well as received both on pallets. Usually the shipper does the palletizing (unless they pay a pack and ship type place to do it for them.) You put the item or items on the pallet and usually band them to the pallet (there are all different kinds of bands you can use. Plastic bands with an S-clasp are easy to use but there are metal bands you crimp a clasp onto too as well as all kinds of others I'm sure.) I usually shrink wrap the items too. Often with cardboard around them. Sometimes crate them with a plywood box around the whole pallet. None of these will stop a forklift fork from going through but help with scuffs from pallets getting moved around. I've received pallets with just shrinkwrap holding items on the pallet. They've made it to me but the items tend to shift when moved around a lot. All the shipping I've done is based on the cubic size of the pallet with items on top. I believe if you go over the "standard"-ish sized pallets most probably have an additional charge (I've received some pallet shipments that required longer forks for the forklift than standard.) On the receiving end they can send a lift gate truck for a charge. Most freight companies want to know if it's coming and going to a residential or business address. By business address they usually mean a place that has a forklift or loading dock to unload. Residential usually means they'll send it on a lift gate truck and usually will call to arrange a delivery date and time (if it's a business delivery and they show up during business hours to deliver and no one is there there's usually a "redelivery" charge.) Amost all the freight companies I've dealt with will not go down a residential driveway (mine is 1/2 mile long so they definitely won't go down it.) Most send a tractor trailer to deliver. I meet them at the road with either a tractor with forks or my pickup truck (if they have a liftgate.) I've rented telehandlers (rough terrain telescoping boom forklifts) before too (wish I could get myself one of those!) The driver will have a pallet jack (a wheeled tool with two forks to go into/under the pallet and hydraulics that can lift it off the ground an inch or so to move the palleted items around. All freight companies I've dealt with will either get the pallets to the edge of the back of the truck (for business delivery) or onto the liftgate and onto the ground. Then it's up to the receiver to take it from there. To unpalletize it yourself it depends what it is. If it's really heavy then I'd move it close to it's location and then use a hoist or lift to get it off. Obviously if it's smaller items (maybe multiple boxes of items on the pallet) then it can just be pulled off one at a time. As other people have said palletizing stuff is *really* convenient for moving it around and isn't too hard to do. Around here there are many places that offer free pallets or for little money (though around here some people burn wood pallets so there's some competition to get them.) Most "chain" stores around here return their pallets so won't give them away but plumbing and heating, computer recyclers, and other places will often give them away. Places like uline.com (among many others) sell banding and shrinkwrap supplies that will last a lifetime if you're only shipping occasionally. Just my experience with it. Todd From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 18 14:37:06 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:37:06 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> No stuck, high. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob > Rosenbloom > Sent: 18 January 2015 20:11 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > On 1/18/2015 12:07 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > No, I checked that and it isn't. It is an active low signal and it is high. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > What about the READY pin? Stuck low? > > Bob > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony > > duell > >> Sent: 18 January 2015 19:16 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > >> > >>> The terminal controller board on my VT101 is not working, if it > >>> displays anything it is random characters. I have used my scope to > >>> check the 8085 CPU. It has power, it is outputting a valid clock, > >>> but there is no activity on the RD,WR and ALE pins. I am guessing > >>> the 8085 is bad, but before I go replacing it I wanted to check if > >>> anyone knew of anything else that might cause the 8085 to misbehave > >>> (ie am I seeing > >> symptoms or a cause?). > >> > >> What is the state of the reset input to the 8085? In other words, is > >> the > > CPU > >> being held reset all the time? > >> > >> -tony > >> = > > > > > -- > Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. > I've been practising it for years. > -Prince Philip From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Jan 18 14:48:53 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:48:53 +0100 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-18 21:37, Robert Jarratt wrote: > No stuck, high. Is there any activity on any of the address pins? If those also are dead, either the whole CPU is dead, or else it is disabled by something. If those are showing activity then the RD pin is either dead, or shorted somewhere, I'd guess. I hope you are checking the right pins... :-) Johnny > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob >> Rosenbloom >> Sent: 18 January 2015 20:11 >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- >> Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >> >> On 1/18/2015 12:07 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>> No, I checked that and it isn't. It is an active low signal and it is > high. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Rob >> >> What about the READY pin? Stuck low? >> >> Bob >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony >>> duell >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 19:16 >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>> Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >>>> >>>>> The terminal controller board on my VT101 is not working, if it >>>>> displays anything it is random characters. I have used my scope to >>>>> check the 8085 CPU. It has power, it is outputting a valid clock, >>>>> but there is no activity on the RD,WR and ALE pins. I am guessing >>>>> the 8085 is bad, but before I go replacing it I wanted to check if >>>>> anyone knew of anything else that might cause the 8085 to misbehave >>>>> (ie am I seeing >>>> symptoms or a cause?). >>>> >>>> What is the state of the reset input to the 8085? In other words, is >>>> the >>> CPU >>>> being held reset all the time? >>>> >>>> -tony >>>> = >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your foot > in it. >> I've been practising it for years. >> -Prince Philip > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 18 15:12:22 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:12:22 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny > Billquist > Sent: 18 January 2015 20:49 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > On 2015-01-18 21:37, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > No stuck, high. > > Is there any activity on any of the address pins? If those also are dead, either > the whole CPU is dead, or else it is disabled by something. > Yes there is, but it looks odd, and very different to when I checked the address pins on the working one. It looked like the voltage might be spiking upwards, but it is hard to tell because I don't have a working logic analyser. > If those are showing activity then the RD pin is either dead, or shorted > somewhere, I'd guess. RD and WR are active low, and they are both high, so I suppose they could be shorted high, but I don't know. > > I hope you are checking the right pins... :-) Me too, although I have checked multiple times. I am using this page to give me the pinout: http://scanftree.com/microprocessor/Pin-Diagram-of-8085-and-Pin-description-of-8085 > > Johnny > > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob > >> Rosenbloom > >> Sent: 18 January 2015 20:11 > >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > >> Off- Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > >> > >> On 1/18/2015 12:07 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >>> No, I checked that and it isn't. It is an active low signal and it > >>> is > > high. > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> Rob > >> > >> What about the READY pin? Stuck low? > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >>>> tony > >>> duell > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 19:16 > >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >>>> Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > >>>> > >>>>> The terminal controller board on my VT101 is not working, if it > >>>>> displays anything it is random characters. I have used my scope to > >>>>> check the 8085 CPU. It has power, it is outputting a valid clock, > >>>>> but there is no activity on the RD,WR and ALE pins. I am guessing > >>>>> the 8085 is bad, but before I go replacing it I wanted to check if > >>>>> anyone knew of anything else that might cause the 8085 to > >>>>> misbehave (ie am I seeing > >>>> symptoms or a cause?). > >>>> > >>>> What is the state of the reset input to the 8085? In other words, > >>>> is the > >>> CPU > >>>> being held reset all the time? > >>>> > >>>> -tony > >>>> = > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your > >> foot > > in it. > >> I've been practising it for years. > >> -Prince Philip > > > > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Jan 18 15:32:41 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 22:32:41 +0100 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-18 22:12, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny >> Billquist >> Sent: 18 January 2015 20:49 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >> >> On 2015-01-18 21:37, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>> No stuck, high. >> >> Is there any activity on any of the address pins? If those also are dead, either >> the whole CPU is dead, or else it is disabled by something. >> > > Yes there is, but it looks odd, and very different to when I checked the address pins on the working one. It looked like the voltage might be spiking upwards, but it is hard to tell because I don't have a working logic analyser. All power pins are ok to the CPU? I wouldn't care much for a logic analyzer at this point. A good scope will tell you more. Nice sharp edges to signals when they shift. Times that look reasonable... Steady levels, and correct levels. >> If those are showing activity then the RD pin is either dead, or shorted >> somewhere, I'd guess. > > > RD and WR are active low, and they are both high, so I suppose they could be shorted high, but I don't know. That will be very hard to verify without disconnecting the pins. So let's focus on other things for the moment. >> I hope you are checking the right pins... :-) > > Me too, although I have checked multiple times. I am using this page to give me the pinout: http://scanftree.com/microprocessor/Pin-Diagram-of-8085-and-Pin-description-of-8085 Well, I can't offer any more help on that one. Just a reflection. Johnny > > >> >> Johnny >> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Rob >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob >>>> Rosenbloom >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 20:11 >>>> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and >>>> Off- Topic Posts >>>> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >>>> >>>> On 1/18/2015 12:07 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>>>> No, I checked that and it isn't. It is an active low signal and it >>>>> is >>> high. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Rob >>>> >>>> What about the READY pin? Stuck low? >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> tony >>>>> duell >>>>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 19:16 >>>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>>>> Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >>>>>> >>>>>>> The terminal controller board on my VT101 is not working, if it >>>>>>> displays anything it is random characters. I have used my scope to >>>>>>> check the 8085 CPU. It has power, it is outputting a valid clock, >>>>>>> but there is no activity on the RD,WR and ALE pins. I am guessing >>>>>>> the 8085 is bad, but before I go replacing it I wanted to check if >>>>>>> anyone knew of anything else that might cause the 8085 to >>>>>>> misbehave (ie am I seeing >>>>>> symptoms or a cause?). >>>>>> >>>>>> What is the state of the reset input to the 8085? In other words, >>>>>> is the >>>>> CPU >>>>>> being held reset all the time? >>>>>> >>>>>> -tony >>>>>> = >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your >>>> foot >>> in it. >>>> I've been practising it for years. >>>> -Prince Philip >>> >> >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 18 15:47:35 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:47:35 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny > Billquist > Sent: 18 January 2015 21:33 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > On 2015-01-18 22:12, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> Johnny Billquist > >> Sent: 18 January 2015 20:49 > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > >> > >> On 2015-01-18 21:37, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >>> No stuck, high. > >> > >> Is there any activity on any of the address pins? If those also are > >> dead, either the whole CPU is dead, or else it is disabled by something. > >> > > > > Yes there is, but it looks odd, and very different to when I checked the address > pins on the working one. It looked like the voltage might be spiking upwards, > but it is hard to tell because I don't have a working logic analyser. > > All power pins are ok to the CPU? I checked Vcc and Vss and they appeared to be fine (5V and 0V respectively). > I wouldn't care much for a logic analyzer at this point. A good scope will tell > you more. Nice sharp edges to signals when they shift. Times that look > reasonable... Steady levels, and correct levels. It will never be steady with a scope because the address lines won't be a regular waveform. That said they looked very different on the faulty board to how they looked on the good board. > > >> If those are showing activity then the RD pin is either dead, or > >> shorted somewhere, I'd guess. > > > > > > RD and WR are active low, and they are both high, so I suppose they could be > shorted high, but I don't know. > > That will be very hard to verify without disconnecting the pins. So let's focus on > other things for the moment. I have a desoldering gun now, so desoldering is no longer the problem it once was for me, but I would still prefer to avoid this if possible. I am not sure what else to check though. > > >> I hope you are checking the right pins... :-) > > > > Me too, although I have checked multiple times. I am using this page > > to give me the pinout: > > http://scanftree.com/microprocessor/Pin-Diagram-of-8085-and-Pin-descri > > ption-of-8085 > > Well, I can't offer any more help on that one. Just a reflection. > > Johnny > > > > > > >> > >> Johnny > >> > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> Rob > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >>>> Bob Rosenbloom > >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 20:11 > >>>> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > >>>> Off- Topic Posts > >>>> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > >>>> > >>>> On 1/18/2015 12:07 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >>>>> No, I checked that and it isn't. It is an active low signal and it > >>>>> is > >>> high. > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards > >>>>> > >>>>> Rob > >>>> > >>>> What about the READY pin? Stuck low? > >>>> > >>>> Bob > >>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>>> tony > >>>>> duell > >>>>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 19:16 > >>>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >>>>>> Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> The terminal controller board on my VT101 is not working, if it > >>>>>>> displays anything it is random characters. I have used my scope > >>>>>>> to check the 8085 CPU. It has power, it is outputting a valid > >>>>>>> clock, but there is no activity on the RD,WR and ALE pins. I am > >>>>>>> guessing the 8085 is bad, but before I go replacing it I wanted > >>>>>>> to check if anyone knew of anything else that might cause the > >>>>>>> 8085 to misbehave (ie am I seeing > >>>>>> symptoms or a cause?). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What is the state of the reset input to the 8085? In other words, > >>>>>> is the > >>>>> CPU > >>>>>> being held reset all the time? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -tony > >>>>>> = > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your > >>>> foot > >>> in it. > >>>> I've been practising it for years. > >>>> -Prince Philip > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > >> || on a psychedelic trip > >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > > > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From db at db.net Sun Jan 18 16:04:30 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 17:04:30 -0500 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 09:47:35PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: > ... > > you more. Nice sharp edges to signals when they shift. Times that look > > reasonable... Steady levels, and correct levels. > > It will never be steady with a scope because the address lines won't be a regular waveform. That said they looked very different on the faulty board to how they looked on the good board. > A remote possibility is the boot ROM is b0rked and it's simply running around like a chicken without a head. That is something a good logic analyser could tell you. Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 18 16:21:28 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 22:21:28 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> Message-ID: <016601d0336d$1ab5ac70$50210550$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Diane Bruce > Sent: 18 January 2015 22:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 09:47:35PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > ... > > > you more. Nice sharp edges to signals when they shift. Times that > > > look reasonable... Steady levels, and correct levels. > > > > It will never be steady with a scope because the address lines won't be a > regular waveform. That said they looked very different on the faulty board to > how they looked on the good board. > > > > A remote possibility is the boot ROM is b0rked and it's simply running around > like a chicken without a head. > That is something a good logic analyser could tell you. > If I had one.... I did buy a cheap Thurlby LA160 recently. It is the type that uses your scope for its screen. It seems to work fine except that many of the membrane keys don't respond :-( Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 18 16:23:01 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 22:23:01 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> Message-ID: <016701d0336d$525b4770$f711d650$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Diane Bruce > Sent: 18 January 2015 22:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 09:47:35PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > ... > > > you more. Nice sharp edges to signals when they shift. Times that > > > look reasonable... Steady levels, and correct levels. > > > > It will never be steady with a scope because the address lines won't be a > regular waveform. That said they looked very different on the faulty board to > how they looked on the good board. > > > > A remote possibility is the boot ROM is b0rked and it's simply running around > like a chicken without a head. > That is something a good logic analyser could tell you. > I would have thought that unlikely as I would expect to at least see some activity on the RD and WR pins, but I don't. I mean even if the ROM is bad it would execute *something*. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 18 16:37:10 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 14:37:10 -0800 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <016601d0336d$1ab5ac70$50210550$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <016601d0336d$1ab5ac70$50210550$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54BC3596.7060004@sydex.com> On 01/18/2015 02:21 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I did buy a cheap Thurlby LA160 recently. It is the type that uses your > scope for its screen. It seems to work fine except that many of the membrane > keys don't respond :-( If you've got a PC with a printer port, there (I believe) is a Logic Analyzer hookup to the printer port with software here: http://jwasys.home.xs4all.nl/old/diy2.html I've tried it, and it works remarkably well for what it is. I ran it from a 450Mhz K6-equipped ancient PC. --Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Jan 18 16:51:46 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 23:51:46 +0100 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54BC3902.4020203@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-18 22:47, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny >> Billquist >> Sent: 18 January 2015 21:33 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >> >> On 2015-01-18 22:12, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Johnny Billquist >>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 20:49 >>>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>>> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >>>> >>>> On 2015-01-18 21:37, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>>>> No stuck, high. >>>> >>>> Is there any activity on any of the address pins? If those also are >>>> dead, either the whole CPU is dead, or else it is disabled by something. >>>> >>> >>> Yes there is, but it looks odd, and very different to when I checked the address >> pins on the working one. It looked like the voltage might be spiking upwards, >> but it is hard to tell because I don't have a working logic analyser. >> >> All power pins are ok to the CPU? > > I checked Vcc and Vss and they appeared to be fine (5V and 0V respectively). I can't remember (and haven't checked), but make sure that chip isn't one of those funny one that requires several clocks or power levels. >> I wouldn't care much for a logic analyzer at this point. A good scope will tell >> you more. Nice sharp edges to signals when they shift. Times that look >> reasonable... Steady levels, and correct levels. > > It will never be steady with a scope because the address lines won't be a regular waveform. That said they looked very different on the faulty board to how they looked on the good board. It should be steady between clocks. You should essentially run up the frequency of the scope so that you can see each clock phase nice and wide. Checking address pins you should then also have the same nice long bits. You might see some initial ring when moving to a different level, but that should be very small and short. After that it should be level for the rest of the clock cycle. Ie. You need to look closer. Just just "it's some kind of activity going on". >>>> If those are showing activity then the RD pin is either dead, or >>>> shorted somewhere, I'd guess. >>> >>> >>> RD and WR are active low, and they are both high, so I suppose they could be >> shorted high, but I don't know. >> >> That will be very hard to verify without disconnecting the pins. So let's focus on >> other things for the moment. > > > I have a desoldering gun now, so desoldering is no longer the problem it once was for me, but I would still prefer to avoid this if possible. I am not sure what else to check though. That do help. :-) But I understand you. Not much point in replacing components that turns out to be fine. Especially since it still might be destructive to remove them. Johnny > > >> >>>> I hope you are checking the right pins... :-) >>> >>> Me too, although I have checked multiple times. I am using this page >>> to give me the pinout: >>> http://scanftree.com/microprocessor/Pin-Diagram-of-8085-and-Pin-descri >>> ption-of-8085 >> >> Well, I can't offer any more help on that one. Just a reflection. >> >> Johnny >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Johnny >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Rob >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Bob Rosenbloom >>>>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 20:11 >>>>>> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and >>>>>> Off- Topic Posts >>>>>> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >>>>>> >>>>>> On 1/18/2015 12:07 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>>>>>> No, I checked that and it isn't. It is an active low signal and it >>>>>>> is >>>>> high. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rob >>>>>> >>>>>> What about the READY pin? Stuck low? >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> tony >>>>>>> duell >>>>>>>> Sent: 18 January 2015 19:16 >>>>>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The terminal controller board on my VT101 is not working, if it >>>>>>>>> displays anything it is random characters. I have used my scope >>>>>>>>> to check the 8085 CPU. It has power, it is outputting a valid >>>>>>>>> clock, but there is no activity on the RD,WR and ALE pins. I am >>>>>>>>> guessing the 8085 is bad, but before I go replacing it I wanted >>>>>>>>> to check if anyone knew of anything else that might cause the >>>>>>>>> 8085 to misbehave (ie am I seeing >>>>>>>> symptoms or a cause?). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What is the state of the reset input to the 8085? In other words, >>>>>>>> is the >>>>>>> CPU >>>>>>>> being held reset all the time? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -tony >>>>>>>> = >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your >>>>>> foot >>>>> in it. >>>>>> I've been practising it for years. >>>>>> -Prince Philip >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >>>> || on a psychedelic trip >>>> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >>>> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >>> >> >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Jan 18 16:53:27 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 23:53:27 +0100 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> Message-ID: <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-18 23:04, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 09:47:35PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> > ... >>> you more. Nice sharp edges to signals when they shift. Times that look >>> reasonable... Steady levels, and correct levels. >> >> It will never be steady with a scope because the address lines won't be a regular waveform. That said they looked very different on the faulty board to how they looked on the good board. >> > > A remote possibility is the boot ROM is b0rked and it's simply running > around like a chicken without a head. > That is something a good logic analyser could tell you. If the RD pin never gets active, the contents of the ROM will not even be presented to the CPU, so while it's possible the ROM is borked, that is not the problem we're trying to fix right now. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From djg at pdp8online.com Sun Jan 18 12:06:01 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 13:06:01 -0500 Subject: Maxtor XT-2190 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150118180601.GA18425@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 07:29:10PM -0500, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jan 2015, David Gesswein wrote: > > That drive has a dedicated servo surface (thus the odd number of > heads). Not sure there's any concept of microstepping in that > arrangement. > The Seagate ST-4096 is also a servo drive and has the ability to move the heads a partial track for read error recovery. I assume its adding an offset into the servo loop to vary the head position. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 18 12:16:44 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 10:16:44 -0800 Subject: Maxtor XT-2190 In-Reply-To: <20150118180601.GA18425@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20150118180601.GA18425@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <54BBF88C.7060800@bitsavers.org> On 1/18/15 10:06 AM, David Gesswein wrote: > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 07:29:10PM -0500, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Sat, 17 Jan 2015, David Gesswein wrote: >> >> That drive has a dedicated servo surface (thus the odd number of >> heads). Not sure there's any concept of microstepping in that >> arrangement. >> > The Seagate ST-4096 is also a servo drive and has the ability to move > the heads a partial track for read error recovery. I assume its adding an > offset into the servo loop to vary the head position. > > I did some digging and I don't have any schematics scanned for Maxtor. Are there any patent numbers on the drive? It may be worth digging around for Maxtor patents from the mid-80's. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 18 12:27:01 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 10:27:01 -0800 Subject: Maxtor XT-2190 In-Reply-To: <54BBF88C.7060800@bitsavers.org> References: <20150118180601.GA18425@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <54BBF88C.7060800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54BBFAF5.3080203@bitsavers.org> On 1/18/15 10:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I did some digging and I don't have any schematics scanned for Maxtor. > Are there any patent numbers on the drive? It may be worth digging around > for Maxtor patents from the mid-80's. > 4937689 is a place to start to see if any of the parts are similar From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 17:51:36 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 15:51:36 -0800 Subject: Shipping antique computers Message-ID: <000b01d03379$b32d6360$19882a20$@gmail.com> Wow. Nice collection in a nice setting. I love the view of your commute. Where is your new shop located, still near Silicon Valley (near me ;-) )? Marc >Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:07:53 -0800 >From: Guy Sotomayor >Here are some pictures of the stuff after I've moved it into my new shop but still on the pallets: >http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/Almost_moved.html. > >TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jan 18 17:51:45 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 15:51:45 -0800 Subject: Shipping antique computers In-Reply-To: <000b01d03379$b32d6360$19882a20$@gmail.com> References: <000b01d03379$b32d6360$19882a20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54BC4711.9050008@shiresoft.com> Thanks. We're on 10ac (so obviously not in Silicon Valley)...we moved from San Jose. We're near Grass Valley (Sierra Foothills). TTFN - Guy On 1/18/15 3:51 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > Wow. Nice collection in a nice setting. I love the view of your commute. > Where is your new shop located, still near Silicon Valley (near me ;-) )? > Marc > >> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:07:53 -0800 >> From: Guy Sotomayor >> Here are some pictures of the stuff after I've moved it into my new shop > but still on the pallets: >> http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/Almost_moved.html. >> >> TTFN - Guy > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 18 18:00:22 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 00:00:22 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny > Billquist > Sent: 18 January 2015 22:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > On 2015-01-18 23:04, Diane Bruce wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 09:47:35PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> > > ... > >>> you more. Nice sharp edges to signals when they shift. Times that > >>> look reasonable... Steady levels, and correct levels. > >> > >> It will never be steady with a scope because the address lines won't be a > regular waveform. That said they looked very different on the faulty board to > how they looked on the good board. > >> > > > > A remote possibility is the boot ROM is b0rked and it's simply running > > around like a chicken without a head. > > That is something a good logic analyser could tell you. > > If the RD pin never gets active, the contents of the ROM will not even be > presented to the CPU, so while it's possible the ROM is borked, that is not the > problem we're trying to fix right now. > I just found something interesting, the pin activity on the address lines, RD, WR, ALE etc appears normal for a bit, and only after a few seconds does it all become inactive. Perhaps this really is an indication that the ROM is bad, if it is getting into some kind of loop where it does no external activity. I don?t really know the 8085 to know whether that is possible. Regards Rob From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 18:02:22 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:02:22 -0500 Subject: SimH PDP-8 ttox device help Message-ID: I've been attempting to interface with SimH in the least invasive way possible, by connecting two programs together via a pseudo-TTY created by socat connected to one of the telnet ports of a TTIX device. Something like this: TTIX -> telnet port -> socat -> /dev/ttyPDP (pty) This works fine for the console port. I personally like having minicom pulled up for the serial terminal but keep the other window cluttered with SimH backend commands. I have been able to manipulate EDIT.SV with a simple C program to transfer text files, character by character, which is neat. I wanted to extend this to a VC8-E emulator, again in the simplest way possible. I am sending out the X- and Y-coordinates for the point over TTOX0, but seem to be encountering some problems. I noticed that it likes to get hung up on a TSF (6411) instruction, causing it to keep looping even in single-step mode! Assuming everything is buffered, I would be under the assumption that TSF would almost always skip with a successful device send. [...] Step expired, PC: 00313 (IOT 411) \ a lot more of these (~50) Step expired, PC: 00314 (JMP 313) / Step expired, PC: 00313 (IOT 411) Step expired, PC: 00314 (JMP 313) Step expired, PC: 00313 (IOT 411) Step expired, PC: 00314 (JMP 313) Step expired, PC: 00313 (IOT 411) Step expired, PC: 00315 (IOT 416) <- finally skips! By the way, I am initializing the device with a CLA; TLS (6416) at the beginning of the program. I noticed David Gesswein opened up a somewhat related issue, now marked as closed, in October 2013. https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/85 Once I'm back to the real hardware, I intend to try it there to verify. I am running V3.9-0, by the way. Any insight into what might be holding TSF up would be much appreciated. Thanks, Kyle From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 18 18:05:10 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 00:05:10 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <016f01d0337b$97956a10$c6c03e30$@ntlworld.com> Does anyone know the whereabouts of an online copy of the field maintenance print set for the VT101? It's part number is MP-01066. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny > Billquist > Sent: 18 January 2015 22:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > On 2015-01-18 23:04, Diane Bruce wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 09:47:35PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> > > ... > >>> you more. Nice sharp edges to signals when they shift. Times that > >>> look reasonable... Steady levels, and correct levels. > >> > >> It will never be steady with a scope because the address lines won't be a > regular waveform. That said they looked very different on the faulty board to > how they looked on the good board. > >> > > > > A remote possibility is the boot ROM is b0rked and it's simply running > > around like a chicken without a head. > > That is something a good logic analyser could tell you. > > If the RD pin never gets active, the contents of the ROM will not even be > presented to the CPU, so while it's possible the ROM is borked, that is not the > problem we're trying to fix right now. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 18 18:05:55 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 00:05:55 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <54BC3596.7060004@sydex.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <016601d0336d$1ab5ac70$50210550$@ntlworld.com> <54BC3596.7060004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <017001d0337b$b1f82cd0$15e88670$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 18 January 2015 22:37 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > On 01/18/2015 02:21 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > I did buy a cheap Thurlby LA160 recently. It is the type that uses > > your scope for its screen. It seems to work fine except that many of > > the membrane keys don't respond :-( > > If you've got a PC with a printer port, there (I believe) is a Logic Analyzer > hookup to the printer port with software here: > > http://jwasys.home.xs4all.nl/old/diy2.html > > I've tried it, and it works remarkably well for what it is. I ran it from a 450Mhz > K6-equipped ancient PC. > > --Chuck > > That isn't a bad idea. I may have the wherewithal to set that up if necessary. Thanks Rob From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 18:19:35 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 18:19:35 -0600 Subject: Mystery ICs - AB 36D1024 In-Reply-To: <54BC136B.50306@sydex.com> References: <54BB5E30.8010800@sydex.com> <54BC136B.50306@sydex.com> Message-ID: Resistor networks.. AB should have been the tip-off. Thanks for the help, everyone. But I can't say that I have any use for the things.. anyone need a few? Would be helpful if we had a catalog or some kind of literature.. On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/18/2015 11:26 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> >> Resistor networks. Easy enough to take out your ohmmeter and figure out >>> what's inside. >>> >> >> I have come across some custom DIP resistor networks in HP machines where >> it's not just isolated resistors or resistors from the pins to a common >> pin (the >> common standard configurations). With those, simple pin-pin resistance >> measurements are not enough ( I forget if it's enough in theory, but in >> practice if the resistors are wildly different values you won't do it). >> > > Nope, these are resistor networks-I've got some 36Cxxxx AB parts. From > what I recall, the first 2 or three numbers indicates the configuration and > the trailing numbers indicate the value. Sadly, I don't have an old > catalog to interpret the part numbers. > > --Chuck > > > From db at db.net Sun Jan 18 18:31:07 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:31:07 -0500 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> References: <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se> <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20150119003107.GA70393@night.db.net> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 12:00:22AM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: > ... > > > > > > A remote possibility is the boot ROM is b0rked and it's simply running > > > around like a chicken without a head. > > > That is something a good logic analyser could tell you. > > > > If the RD pin never gets active, the contents of the ROM will not even be > > presented to the CPU, so while it's possible the ROM is borked, that is not the > > problem we're trying to fix right now. > > > > I just found something interesting, the pin activity on the address lines, RD, WR, ALE etc appears normal for a bit, and only after a few seconds does it all become inactive. > > Perhaps this really is an indication that the ROM is bad, if it is getting into some kind of loop where it does no external activity. I don?t really know the 8085 to know whether that is possible. > > Regards If the VT-100 used an EPROM and not a masked ROM I'd suspect bit rot. A quick glance at this http://tkc8800.com/images/vt100/VT100_Technical_Manual.pdf makes no mention of EPROM vs. masked ROM, but it looking at this manual it is possible you have bad ram as well. In that case, the LEDs should signal this. > > Rob > > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Jan 18 18:55:39 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 01:55:39 +0100 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se> <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54BC560B.6030901@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-19 01:00, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny >> Billquist >> Sent: 18 January 2015 22:53 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >> >> On 2015-01-18 23:04, Diane Bruce wrote: >>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 09:47:35PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>>> >>> ... >>>>> you more. Nice sharp edges to signals when they shift. Times that >>>>> look reasonable... Steady levels, and correct levels. >>>> >>>> It will never be steady with a scope because the address lines won't be a >> regular waveform. That said they looked very different on the faulty board to >> how they looked on the good board. >>>> >>> >>> A remote possibility is the boot ROM is b0rked and it's simply running >>> around like a chicken without a head. >>> That is something a good logic analyser could tell you. >> >> If the RD pin never gets active, the contents of the ROM will not even be >> presented to the CPU, so while it's possible the ROM is borked, that is not the >> problem we're trying to fix right now. >> > > I just found something interesting, the pin activity on the address lines, RD, WR, ALE etc appears normal for a bit, and only after a few seconds does it all become inactive. > > Perhaps this really is an indication that the ROM is bad, if it is getting into some kind of loop where it does no external activity. I don?t really know the 8085 to know whether that is possible. No. That should not be possible. The RD line comes from the CPU and is used to fetch data. The CPU should continue to fetch data unless it has halted. A borked ROM giving bad data do not stop the CPU from running. Normally all kind of data is executed, but it might cause funny results... And if it is halted, more things should be at a standstill... Unless you have dynamic memory refresh coming from the CPU, in which case I'm not sure how the signals will behave. But I don't even know if you can halt that CPU... But the fact that there is some activity just at the start is interesting. This might become a case where you need to understand how CPUs work at low levels. I hope you are comfortable on that subject. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cubexyz at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 19:04:09 2015 From: cubexyz at gmail.com (Mark Longridge) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:04:09 -0500 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 Message-ID: After trying to get Unix v5 to understand dates beyond the year 2000 I had to wonder if any of the older operating systems from the 1970s or older could do this. So, did any operating system programmers from this time period have the foresight to use 4 digits for the year? I just checked APL/360 and it seems that it does not. Mark L From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Jan 18 19:07:10 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 02:07:10 +0100 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54BC58BE.9050005@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-19 02:04, Mark Longridge wrote: > After trying to get Unix v5 to understand dates beyond the year 2000 I > had to wonder if any of the older operating systems from the 1970s or > older could do this. > > So, did any operating system programmers from this time period have > the foresight to use 4 digits for the year? I just checked APL/360 and > it seems that it does not. TOPS-20? VMS? Actually RSX internally also handles it fine, but there were bugs in various code that displayed dates, that assumed that the year would never go beyond 99. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jan 18 19:28:58 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:28:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <54BC560B.6030901@update.uu.se> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se> <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> <54BC560B.6030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201501190128.UAA29251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Perhaps this really is an indication that the ROM is bad, if it is getting $ > No. That should not be possible. > The RD line comes from the CPU and is used to fetch data. The CPU > should continue to fetch data unless it has halted. I'm probably just exposing my ignorance of the 8085 here, but did it have anything like the prefix opcodes x86 has (repne et al)? I'm wondering if it could be stuck doing something like (to admittedly try to use syntax I don't really know) "repne cmp %ax,%ax" that would never occur normally but might compute forever without fetching anything further. Or, does it have a instruction prefetch buffer? (My guess would be it's too old for that, but I don't really know.) If so, a very tight loop might execute entirely out of the prefetch buffer.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 18 20:43:32 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 18:43:32 -0800 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <201501190128.UAA29251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se> <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> <54BC560B.6030901@update.uu.se> <201501190128.UAA29251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <54BC6F54.8080400@sydex.com> On 01/18/2015 05:28 PM, Mouse wrote: > I'm probably just exposing my ignorance of the 8085 here, but did it > have anything like the prefix opcodes x86 has (repne et al)? I'm > wondering if it could be stuck doing something like (to admittedly try > to use syntax I don't really know) "repne cmp %ax,%ax" that would never > occur normally but might compute forever without fetching anything > further. Or, does it have a instruction prefetch buffer? (My guess > would be it's too old for that, but I don't really know.) If so, a > very tight loop might execute entirely out of the prefetch buffer.... None of that. Think of it as an 8080 with a few extra instructions, a bit-bang serial I/O facility, and some extra vectored interrupt lines and a TRAP interrupt--and +5 volt operation. Really, not even as complex as a Z80. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 20:49:12 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:49:12 -0700 Subject: TMS9918 (was Re: Seeking... TI TMS9902 ICs) Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 9:22 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Later found their video chip 9918 Speaking of which, does anyone have the data sheet and/or user manual for the original TMS9918, *NOT* the improved 9918A? All my internet searches that turn up 9918 without an A suffix are in fact actually for the A part. From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Jan 18 21:51:42 2015 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 22:51:42 -0500 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 20:04, Mark Longridge wrote: > So, did any operating system programmers from this time period have > the foresight to use 4 digits for the year? It's just outside of your time frame (circa 1980), but the HP 64000 operating system allowed years up to 2157 (dates were stored as the number of days since January 1, 1976) and accepted years of either two or four digits. Unusually for an American product, it required dates to be entered in D/M/Y format. -- Dave From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 22:43:41 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 22:43:41 -0600 Subject: more documentation... Message-ID: I just looking for offers + shipping. Please contact me off list for more info or questions. I told Al he could have whatever he wants for free and I would pay shipping. Al, I hate typing, please take it all... NCR 801-0009975 801-0009981 powertec inc for GDI 3m lups module crt Buscher 0l400-3015r/4015r fisher controls type cp250 model sps-1878a allen-bradley 635344 ps cdc 83322310 54359803, maybe others... computer products (unipower) pwr div 800w multiple sc001-1442 MISC PWR SUPPLIES: tryger electronics uaro lear siegler GE century data condor Thanks, Paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 23:39:49 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 00:39:49 -0500 Subject: Sending 0377 via KL8JA Message-ID: I am noticing something odd in SimH when sending a 0377 (all ones) character. It seems to be duplicating the byte. I haven't read anything regarding this behavior. I'm away from my hardware PDP-8 at the moment, so I can't confirm that this is not the behavior that I would experience on the real thing. Here's how I reproduced it: test.pal: *200 CLA OSR JMS SEND JMP 200 SEND, 0 6416 6411 JMP .-1 CLA JMP I SEND $ pdp8.ini: at ttix 2222 set ttox0 8b load test.bin br 200 d sr 0377 Run 'nc localhost 2222 | od -to1' in a terminal, then 'go 200' and repeatedly press 'c', seeing how many times it takes to generate a line of characters in 'od'. Then, 'd sr 0376' and confirm that it takes twice as many presses, indicating half as many characters being sent per TLS instruction with the latter. Can anyone else confirm this for me? Thanks, Kyle From mta at umich.edu Mon Jan 19 01:07:59 2015 From: mta at umich.edu (Mike Alexander) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 02:07:59 -0500 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86F92389834E31519EAEA969@bayswater.msalexander.com> --On January 18, 2015 at 8:04:09 PM -0500 Mark Longridge wrote: > So, did any operating system programmers from this time period have > the foresight to use 4 digits for the year? I just checked APL/360 and > it seems that it does not. MTS will work ok until the original IBM TOD clock overflows in 2042. I think there were a few minor bugs that had to be fixed in 2000, but most everything worked. I run MTS every now and then and haven't noticed problems. Fixing it for 2042 will be a bigger problem if anyone who cares is still around. Since STCK is a non-privileged instruction finding and fixing the problems will be challenging. Mike From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Sun Jan 18 17:41:58 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 18:41:58 -0500 Subject: Recovering Win3.1 Data In-Reply-To: <54B5D9DE.2060606@pico-systems.com> References: <54B580FA.5010600@verizon.net> <54B5D9DE.2060606@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54BC44C6.7020208@verizon.net> On 1/13/2015 9:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/13/2015 02:32 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: >> In the mid-90's I had a Packard Bell computer that ran Windows for >> workgroups 3.11. The computer is long gone, but I saved the disk. It >> is a 420 MB Conner. I recently tried to recover the data by >> attaching it to one of those IDE/SATA to USB devices and read it >> under Windows7, didn't work. >> >> I am able to copy files to floppy, but the stuff I want to save won't >> fit on a floppy. >> >> I put the disk in an old PC and it will boot to DOS, it tries to >> start WIN3.1 but exits because of some missing sound card hardware. >> >> What is the path of least resistance here? Is linux any help? >> > Yes, Linux will be able to easily read the disk. Once you have a > Linux system up, > plug in the drive. it MIGHT automatically mount the drive as > /media/ or you might have to manually mount it > if it doesn't automatically detect the file system type. > > the commands would be something like : > > If you don't know what partition is the user data one, do this: > sudo fdisk /dev/sdb > > p > > lists out the partitions on the drive, and the file system types > q > > /dev/sdb would be the second drive on the system, which could be the CD, > if so, the added drive might be /dev/sdc > ls /dev/sd* will show the various drives as /dev/sd > and available partitions as /dev/sd > > mkdir /mnt/disk > sudo mount -t msdos /dev/sd /mnt/disk > > now, the disk should be mounted under /mnt/disk, and you can > list it, copy files, etc. > > Jon > You guys move a lot faster than I do.... Some of the files I copied to floppy were MS Word files from that era. My win7 machine wouldn't open them under Office 2007 because the antivirus (Symmantec) had set a registry bit. Hmm. .. However, office on the Linux system would open them (Debian). But, Debian didn't understand the disk. Disk Utility reported it as a Conner disk but said the size was 2.2 TB. I thought Debian would be the path of least resistance, back to the drawing board. From digitgraph at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 21:30:33 2015 From: digitgraph at gmail.com (John Kaur) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:30:33 -0700 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: <54BC58BE.9050005@update.uu.se> References: <54BC58BE.9050005@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Believe is you use 1972, that is the folding point for the calendar to get weeks and months correct. Older versions of RSTS did not do it past about mid 2000. John> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 6:07 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-01-19 02:04, Mark Longridge wrote: > >> After trying to get Unix v5 to understand dates beyond the year 2000 I >> had to wonder if any of the older operating systems from the 1970s or >> older could do this. >> >> So, did any operating system programmers from this time period have >> the foresight to use 4 digits for the year? I just checked APL/360 and >> it seems that it does not. >> > > TOPS-20? VMS? > Actually RSX internally also handles it fine, but there were bugs in > various code that displayed dates, that assumed that the year would never > go beyond 99. :-) > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 19 02:04:48 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 08:04:48 +0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se>, <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > I just found something interesting, the pin activity on the address lines, RD, WR, ALE etc appears normal for a bit, > and only after a few seconds does it all become inactive. > > Perhaps this really is an indication that the ROM is bad, if it is getting into some kind of loop where it does no > external activity. I don?t really know the 8085 to know whether that is possible. What if (due to ROM or RAM problems maybe) the 8085 executed a HLT instruction? -tony From wilson at dbit.com Mon Jan 19 02:05:04 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 03:05:04 -0500 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: <86F92389834E31519EAEA969@bayswater.msalexander.com> References: <86F92389834E31519EAEA969@bayswater.msalexander.com> Message-ID: <20150119080504.GA15577@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 02:07:59AM -0500, Mike Alexander wrote: >MTS will work ok until the original IBM TOD clock overflows in 2042. I always liked how the March 1/1900 starting point sidestepped the leap-year ugliness. >Fixing it for 2042 will be a bigger problem if >anyone who cares is still around. Since STCK is a non-privileged >instruction finding and fixing the problems will be challenging. The great thing about emulation is that you can make an instruction be as thorny as you want, temporarily, to flush out stuff like this. John Wilson, ETS4 D Bit From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 19 03:07:28 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 09:07:28 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se>, <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <018001d033c7$594d48d0$0be7da70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 19 January 2015 08:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > > > > I just found something interesting, the pin activity on the address > > lines, RD, WR, ALE etc appears normal for a bit, and only after a few seconds > does it all become inactive. > > > > Perhaps this really is an indication that the ROM is bad, if it is > > getting into some kind of loop where it does no external activity. I don't really > know the 8085 to know whether that is possible. > > What if (due to ROM or RAM problems maybe) the 8085 executed a HLT > instruction? > > -tony > = Good point. The S signals seem to tell you if it is halted, I will check this evening. I was trying to identify the chips on the board to see if I can identify the ROMs but I can't find some of the numbers. The only socketed component is marked CN55004N 8232 DEC TP03 23-028E4-00, could that be it? Anyone have a datasheet for it? It would be good to try to read its contents. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 19 03:37:04 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 09:37:04 -0000 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: <20150119080504.GA15577@dbit.dbit.com> References: <86F92389834E31519EAEA969@bayswater.msalexander.com> <20150119080504.GA15577@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <018401d033cb$7bf229b0$73d67d10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Wilson > Sent: 19 January 2015 08:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year > 2000 > > On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 02:07:59AM -0500, Mike Alexander wrote: > >MTS will work ok until the original IBM TOD clock overflows in 2042. > > I always liked how the March 1/1900 starting point sidestepped the leap-year > ugliness. > > >Fixing it for 2042 will be a bigger problem if anyone who cares is > >still around. Since STCK is a non-privileged instruction finding and > >fixing the problems will be challenging. > > The great thing about emulation is that you can make an instruction be as > thorny as you want, temporarily, to flush out stuff like this. > > John Wilson, ETS4 > D Bit When I tried an early date with Ultrix to make the day of the week correct it said the date wasn't possible because it was before Ultrix was released. I found a suitable date in 1998. Regards Rob From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Jan 19 06:23:30 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:23:30 +0000 (WET) Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 Message-ID: <01PHI1M4AHAG005MPE@beyondthepale.ie> > >> After trying to get Unix v5 to understand dates beyond the year 2000 I >> had to wonder if any of the older operating systems from the 1970s or >> older could do this. >> >> So, did any operating system programmers from this time period have >> the foresight to use 4 digits for the year? I just checked APL/360 and >> it seems that it does not. >> > > TOPS-20? VMS? > It was very near the end of the 1970s but VMS made a really good effort to handle times and dates well from the beginning. A single 64 bit time format is used throughout the operating system and operating system routines are provided to manipulate it and convert to and from well chosen standardised display formats with no ambiguities such as two digit years or easily mixed up numbers for days and months. Everything [*] displays and accepts the same time and date formats and shortcuts such as YESTERDAY, TODAY and TOMORROW. No messing about trying to figure out what format a particular utility wants the date specified in and no wondering whether a unitless time displayed by something is days, hours or minutes. The areas where I think it could have been done better still are to have stored the time internally in UTC rather than local time while displaying local time and to have chosen an earlier base date than 17 November 1858. Also, there was originally a rule that time differences could not be larger than 10000 days which was poorly enforced and eventually had to be scrapped - this should have been handled much more gracefully. [*] A few system parameters are specified in seconds and TIMEPROMPTWAIT is specified in microfortnights with tongue in cheek. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Jan 19 06:52:26 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:52:26 +0000 (WET) Subject: Sending 0377 via KL8JA Message-ID: <01PHI3Q1YEKI005MPE@beyondthepale.ie> > >I am noticing something odd in SimH when sending a 0377 (all ones) >character. It seems to be duplicating the byte. I haven't read anything >regarding this behavior. I'm away from my hardware PDP-8 at the moment, so >I can't confirm that this is not the behavior that I would experience on >the real thing. > It's not really that clear whether a telnet type connection is in use here but could it be something that does telnet negotiation is sending data to something which is not telnet negotiation aware? 0377 octal (FF hex) corresponds to IAC which would get sent as IAC IAC. Maybe monitoring the data on the network would confirm? > >Run 'nc localhost 2222 | od -to1' in a terminal, then 'go 200' and >repeatedly press 'c', seeing how many times it takes to generate a line of >characters in 'od'. Then, 'd sr 0376' and confirm that it takes twice as >many presses, indicating half as many characters being sent per TLS >instruction with the latter. > >Can anyone else confirm this for me? > Sorry - I don't follow that at all and figuring it out is probably above my pay grade :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 19 07:03:42 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:03:42 +0100 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: References: <54BC58BE.9050005@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54BD00AE.6060304@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-19 04:30, John Kaur wrote: > Believe is you use 1972, that is the folding point for the calendar to get > weeks and months correct. > Older versions of RSTS did not do it past about mid 2000. > John RSTS/E have some weird internal format that is really not very good, and which soon will have problems again. It already did have problems, but it was extended by explicitly saying that the date was unsigned. (The date format is pretty much ((year-1972)*1000)+day within year. Which obviously waste a lot of the values, as there are only 365 or 366 days in a year. And of course, they hit problems 32 years after the start year, which was 2004.) I don't know what is special about 1972. I always assumed they used that base because that's the year RSTS-11 first showed up. Johnny > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 6:07 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2015-01-19 02:04, Mark Longridge wrote: >> >>> After trying to get Unix v5 to understand dates beyond the year 2000 I >>> had to wonder if any of the older operating systems from the 1970s or >>> older could do this. >>> >>> So, did any operating system programmers from this time period have >>> the foresight to use 4 digits for the year? I just checked APL/360 and >>> it seems that it does not. >>> >> >> TOPS-20? VMS? >> Actually RSX internally also handles it fine, but there were bugs in >> various code that displayed dates, that assumed that the year would never >> go beyond 99. :-) >> >> Johnny >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >> -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 19 07:04:47 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:04:47 +0100 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54BD00EF.8060802@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-19 04:51, J. David Bryan wrote: > On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 20:04, Mark Longridge wrote: > >> So, did any operating system programmers from this time period have >> the foresight to use 4 digits for the year? > > It's just outside of your time frame (circa 1980), but the HP 64000 > operating system allowed years up to 2157 (dates were stored as the number > of days since January 1, 1976) and accepted years of either two or four > digits. Unusually for an American product, it required dates to be entered > in D/M/Y format. I think pretty much all DEC OSes normally used dd-mmm-yy, but some of them could accept input in various format. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 19 07:05:59 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:05:59 +0100 Subject: Sending 0377 via KL8JA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54BD0137.5060105@update.uu.se> This sounds like a typical TCP/IP telnet issue. The telnet protocol (there actually is one) requires that all 377(8) be doubled. More properly I should perhaps say the NVT protocol used by telnet. Johnny On 2015-01-19 06:39, Kyle Owen wrote: > I am noticing something odd in SimH when sending a 0377 (all ones) > character. It seems to be duplicating the byte. I haven't read anything > regarding this behavior. I'm away from my hardware PDP-8 at the moment, so > I can't confirm that this is not the behavior that I would experience on > the real thing. > > Here's how I reproduced it: > > test.pal: > *200 > CLA OSR > JMS SEND > JMP 200 > SEND, 0 > 6416 > 6411 > JMP .-1 > CLA > JMP I SEND > $ > > pdp8.ini: > at ttix 2222 > set ttox0 8b > load test.bin > br 200 > d sr 0377 > > Run 'nc localhost 2222 | od -to1' in a terminal, then 'go 200' and > repeatedly press 'c', seeing how many times it takes to generate a line of > characters in 'od'. Then, 'd sr 0376' and confirm that it takes twice as > many presses, indicating half as many characters being sent per TLS > instruction with the latter. > > Can anyone else confirm this for me? > > Thanks, > > Kyle > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 19 07:07:08 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:07:08 +0100 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se>, <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54BD017C.9090301@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-19 09:04, tony duell wrote: >> >> I just found something interesting, the pin activity on the address lines, RD, WR, ALE etc appears normal for a bit, >> and only after a few seconds does it all become inactive. >> >> Perhaps this really is an indication that the ROM is bad, if it is getting into some kind of loop where it does no >> external activity. I don?t really know the 8085 to know whether that is possible. > > What if (due to ROM or RAM problems maybe) the 8085 executed a HLT instruction? I didn't know it had a halt instruction, which is why I speculated (negatively) about that in a previous reply. But if it do indeed have a halt, then this would be a very possible explanation. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Jan 19 07:15:38 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:15:38 +0100 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: <01PHI1M4AHAG005MPE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PHI1M4AHAG005MPE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <54BD037A.5080402@update.uu.se> On 2015-01-19 13:23, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> >>> After trying to get Unix v5 to understand dates beyond the year 2000 I >>> had to wonder if any of the older operating systems from the 1970s or >>> older could do this. >>> >>> So, did any operating system programmers from this time period have >>> the foresight to use 4 digits for the year? I just checked APL/360 and >>> it seems that it does not. >>> >> >> TOPS-20? VMS? >> > > It was very near the end of the 1970s but VMS made a really good effort to > handle times and dates well from the beginning. A single 64 bit time format > is used throughout the operating system and operating system routines are > provided to manipulate it and convert to and from well chosen standardised > display formats with no ambiguities such as two digit years or easily mixed up > numbers for days and months. Everything [*] displays and accepts the same > time and date formats and shortcuts such as YESTERDAY, TODAY and TOMORROW. > No messing about trying to figure out what format a particular utility wants > the date specified in and no wondering whether a unitless time displayed by > something is days, hours or minutes. Agreed. But VMS was released in 1977. Possibly realy 1978, so it wasn't "very near the end of the 70s" I think. > The areas where I think it could have been done better still are to have stored > the time internally in UTC rather than local time while displaying local time > and to have chosen an earlier base date than 17 November 1858. Also, there was > originally a rule that time differences could not be larger than 10000 days > which was poorly enforced and eventually had to be scrapped - this should have > been handled much more gracefully. The local time problem is a serious miss that VMS did. The 10000 day limit was a problem that hit the C runtime library, since C programs like to, and expect code, to express time as an offset from the epoch, which is Jan 1, 1970. Of course, VMS used delta times for this, and that hit 10000 days a little while ago, which barfed things up. I don't remember offhand exactly what the solution looked like. Nothing else normally ever had any issues with that limit, but I think it was rather arbitrary, so I don't expect any programs had problems with raising the limit either. > [*] A few system parameters are specified in seconds and TIMEPROMPTWAIT is > specified in microfortnights with tongue in cheek. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 19 07:28:05 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 07:28:05 -0600 Subject: HP tape drive novel repair Message-ID: <000b01d033eb$c2b000f0$481002d0$@classiccmp.org> I?m in the process of building another HP2000/Access TSB system. I pulled a 7970E tape drive out of a shipping container (I had not opened the shipping container since I bought it about 8 years ago). When I got the unit on the bench to give it a going over, while it looked pristine ? someone had dropped something very heavy (heavy enough to severely deform ?? steel) on the top of the unit. My thought (given there?s not a shortage of open space inside the chassis) was to put a car jack inside and jack it up thus pushing out the top. My concern there was that there would be an ?equal and opposite reaction?). Perhaps a 2x4 that goes side to side under the jack would alleviate this. But on freenode #classiccmp (where I hang out pretty much every night), PJustice and Sark both had similar ideas for an alternative approach that took advantage of the fact that the top of the chassis has a lot of vent holes on top. I implemented their approach and it worked very well so I thought I?d document it with pictures and post here. I should note that this approach only works because the angle iron I used was 14ga. Anything less would just bend itself. If I had facilities to cut the angle iron, I would have put a piece on top and on the bottom but I don?t. Failing that, I just had to pick specific spots on top to ?pull out? more carefully. As you know when steel bends it stretches so it would be impossible to get it back 100% perfect but I?m pretty pleased with the results. If you want to use this method and don?t have convenient holes already present from the manufacturer, you could always drill one or two holes to make it work. Note that without the wood blocks you can pull it straight but it might bend back (albeit less so), but with the wood blocks you can pull it further than straight so it bounces back ?mostly straight?. http://www.ezwind.net/hp2000/7970E/ And if you want to follow the build of the 2000/Access IO-rack (which holds tape, terminal controller and bulkhead, and disk controller subsystem): http://www.ezwind.net/hp2000/IO-Rack/ THANKS SARK AND PJUSTICE J J From db at db.net Mon Jan 19 08:16:34 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 09:16:34 -0500 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <54BD017C.9090301@update.uu.se> References: <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se> <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> <54BD017C.9090301@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150119141634.GA77956@night.db.net> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 02:07:08PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-01-19 09:04, tony duell wrote: > >> > >> I just found something interesting, the pin activity on the address lines, RD, WR, ALE etc appears normal for a bit, > >> and only after a few seconds does it all become inactive. http://tkc8800.com/images/vt100/VT100_Technical_Manual.pdf Look in section 4.2.8 The POWER-Up adn Self-Test section. I linked this pdf before ;) "Assuming there are no hard logic failures present on the board, " And yes the 8085 has a HLT instruction. Are the keyboard lights lighting up at all? If it *is* the ROM which is unlikely if it is a masked ROM, it might simply be lose in the socket you mentioned. It may be sufficient to wiggle the ROM slightly to break any oxide on the pins. Some sockets are notorious for allowing the chip to wiggle up due to heat and cooling down. Your ROM may simply be lose. > >> > >> Perhaps this really is an indication that the ROM is bad, if it is getting into some kind of loop where it does no > >> external activity. I don?t really know the 8085 to know whether that is possible. > > > > What if (due to ROM or RAM problems maybe) the 8085 executed a HLT instruction? > > I didn't know it had a halt instruction, which is why I speculated > (negatively) about that in a previous reply. > But if it do indeed have a halt, then this would be a very possible > explanation. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 19 09:11:56 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 10:11:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 Message-ID: <20150119151156.6EE6218C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark Longridge > I had to wonder if any of the older operating systems from the 1970s or > older could do this. > So, did any operating system programmers from this time period have > the foresight to use 4 digits for the year? It's probably worth distinguishing between the internal clock, the ability to set dates > 1999, the ability to print dates > 1999, etc. For instance, both Multics and Unix had an internal clock that ran correctly past the century end. (Although they do run out / roll over not too much later - in Multics' case, in 2039. For the Multics one, see here: http://www.multicians.org/jhs-clock.html for more.) However, in the case of Unix, both date setting and the canonical routine for date printing (separate code) didn't handle dates after 1999; for input, the year was only two digits, and for output, the first two digits were hard-coded to '19'. However, for calculating dates (which returned a vector of numbers), that part did theoretically work correctly for years after 1999 (it returned [$YEAR-1970]), but... There was a separate bug that caused the year calculation to fail in the closing months of 1999. Whether the person who wrote the code knew of the bug - it's a fairly simple one, an overflow of a short integer - I don't know, but it's possible they did, and on calculating when it would happen, decided that the fact that it would coincidentally also happen at century end meant it could be ignored at that point. However, once that was fixed, the date calcuation routine returned the correct year (without needing to change the interface). I don't know whether date input/calculation/output on Multics had similar issues: if you google "Multics leap year" it shows the source code for a couple of routines dealing with dates, but alas it's all in 645/6180 assembler, so I can't really grok it! It looks like it _might_ work, though (it seems to calculate the number of years since Multics' epoch - 1901 - and add that to 1901). If I had more time to expend, I could look at ITS too... :-( Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 19 09:18:19 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 15:18:19 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <20150119141634.GA77956@night.db.net> References: <014101d0335e$868f3920$93adab60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC1C35.7070704@update.uu.se> <015301d03363$73c31cd0$5b495670$@ntlworld.com> <54BC2679.5090701@update.uu.se> <015c01d03368$5ebfd530$1c3f7f90$@ntlworld.com> <20150118220430.GA69004@night.db.net> <54BC3967.4070204@update.uu.se> <016e01d0337a$eb825bc0$c2871340$@ntlworld.com> <54BD017C.9090301@update.uu.se> <20150119141634.GA77956@night.db.net> Message-ID: <020e01d033fb$27d32020$77796060$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Diane Bruce > Sent: 19 January 2015 14:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 02:07:08PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-01-19 09:04, tony duell wrote: > > >> > > >> I just found something interesting, the pin activity on the address > > >> lines, RD, WR, ALE etc appears normal for a bit, and only after a few > seconds does it all become inactive. > > http://tkc8800.com/images/vt100/VT100_Technical_Manual.pdf > > Look in section 4.2.8 > The POWER-Up adn Self-Test section. > > I linked this pdf before ;) Sorry, I know, but the terminal controller board appears to be significantly different to the VT100, the VT100 does not use the 8085. I will have a read of the sections you indicate though. > > "Assuming there are no hard logic failures present on the board, " > And yes the 8085 has a HLT instruction. > Are the keyboard lights lighting up at all? Some do, but not all, and I don't hear the beep from the keyboard. HLT is looking likely. > > If it *is* the ROM which is unlikely if it is a masked ROM, it might simply be > lose in the socket you mentioned. It may be sufficient to wiggle the ROM > slightly to break any oxide on the pins. Some sockets are notorious for allowing > the chip to wiggle up due to heat and cooling down. > Your ROM may simply be lose. > > I will reseat the only socketed chip on the board to make sure. Thanks for the suggestion. Regards Rob From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 19 09:34:12 2015 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 08:34:12 -0700 Subject: the old VHS series on the history of computing In-Reply-To: <029801d031cb$773d90f0$65b8b2d0$@com> References: <029801d031cb$773d90f0$65b8b2d0$@com> Message-ID: <54BD23F4.6030300@e-bbes.com> On 2015-01-16 13:31, Electronics Plus wrote: > http://waxy.org/2008/06/the_machine_that_changed_the_world/ > He found all 5 episodes, digitized them, and uploaded them. Thanks for the link! I watched it in the 90's, and was looking for it since ;-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 19 10:18:42 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 08:18:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: <018401d033cb$7bf229b0$73d67d10$@ntlworld.com> References: <86F92389834E31519EAEA969@bayswater.msalexander.com> <20150119080504.GA15577@dbit.dbit.com> <018401d033cb$7bf229b0$73d67d10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20150119080755.N51680@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 19 Jan 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > When I tried an early date with Ultrix to make the day of the week correct > it said the date wasn't possible because it was before Ultrix was released. > I found a suitable date in 1998. Well, there are only 14 different calendars for the years - 7 different ones for each starting day, and another 7 for leap years. Between 1901 and 2099, there is always a repeat every 28 years. But there are numerous more. For THIS year (2105), you can get away with 1981, 1987, 1998, 2009, . . . (Note that 1900 and 2100 are not leap years because they are divisible by 100, but 2000 WAS a leap year, due to being divisible by 400.) But, be careful when you reuse old wall calendars! One of the first steps in a simple field sanity check is to ask the person whether they know what the date is. One glance at my wall, with a 1981 calendar and computers and computer books and magazines that happen to be from that time period, and they know that I don't. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 10:24:01 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 11:24:01 -0500 Subject: Sending 0377 via KL8JA In-Reply-To: <54BD0137.5060105@update.uu.se> References: <54BD0137.5060105@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > This sounds like a typical TCP/IP telnet issue. > > The telnet protocol (there actually is one) requires that all 377(8) be > doubled. More properly I should perhaps say the NVT protocol used by telnet. Looks like that's it. Thankfully, that's an easy enough fix: either send a different character that's not 0xFF, or wait for two 0xFFs to come in by ignoring one of them. Thanks for the help! Kyle From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 19 10:32:38 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 08:32:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: <54BD00AE.6060304@update.uu.se> References: <54BC58BE.9050005@update.uu.se> <54BD00AE.6060304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150119083036.W51680@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 19 Jan 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I don't know what is special about 1972. I always assumed they used that > base because that's the year RSTS-11 first showed up. That anniversary is as good a reason as any other. 1972 is one full cycle (28 years) before 2000. 1973's calendar matches (days of the week) with 2001, 1974 matches with 2002, 1975 matches with 2003, etc. From wilson at dbit.com Mon Jan 19 11:10:33 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:10:33 -0500 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: <54BD00AE.6060304@update.uu.se> References: <54BC58BE.9050005@update.uu.se> <54BD00AE.6060304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150119171033.GA31216@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 02:03:42PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: >I don't know what is special about 1972. I always assumed they used >that base because that's the year RSTS-11 first showed up. Actually it's 1970 (but RT-11 uses 1972), and it's inherited from DOS/BATCH which I think everyone knew was a stopgap, like most systems at the time ... so it didn't plan ahead very well, even enough to multiply by 366. instead of 1000. But yeah 1970 is pretty much the beginning of time as far as PDP-11s in general (including DOS/BATCH) are concerned. At least this shows more foresight than OS/8! I think at the time the culture really must have been that computer architectures have a lifespan well under a decade, just because that had largely been true so far. The S/360 was an anomaly. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.com Mon Jan 19 11:13:54 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:13:54 -0500 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: <54BD037A.5080402@update.uu.se> References: <01PHI1M4AHAG005MPE@beyondthepale.ie> <54BD037A.5080402@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150119171354.GB31216@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 02:15:38PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: >The 10000 day limit was a problem that hit the C runtime library, >since C programs like to, and expect code, to express time as an >offset from the epoch, which is Jan 1, 1970. >Of course, VMS used delta times for this, and that hit 10000 days a >little while ago, which barfed things up. I don't remember offhand >exactly what the solution looked like. I don't either, but I do remember an *awesome* cover letter that DEC sent out with the fix, assuring everyone that the libraries were now good internally until some crazy year like 31078, but there was still formatting code that assumed years fit in four digits so there would be Y10K bugs; but don't worry, DEC will issue a patch to VMS at that time. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.com Mon Jan 19 11:18:24 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:18:24 -0500 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: <20150119151156.6EE6218C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150119151156.6EE6218C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150119171824.GC31216@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 10:11:56AM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: >If I had more time to expend, I could look at ITS too... :-( My recollection is that the year is a 9-bit field and starts at 1900, so it bombs out in 2412. But I forget whether I'm talking about the disk format or the OS internal clock. I liked whichever memo described the KS10 internal hardware clock (4.1 MHz x 72 bits maybe? I forget) which wraps around "every four million years", or something like that. SOME number of millions of years. Not that it becomes useless then, but just that it wraps around for the first of many times, so keep an eye open when the time comes. John Wilson D Bit From steemer at dslextreme.com Mon Jan 19 13:37:52 2015 From: steemer at dslextreme.com (sandy hamlet) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 11:37:52 -0800 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Using a scope, look at the address lines and/or data lines at power up, just after system reset. The pulses will probably vary in width but should all be the same amplitude. If you see something like stair stepping: where a pulse starts out at 5 volts and drops, for example to 3 volts and then drops to 0 volts, then you might have two devices trying to access the same line at the same time. Devices on the same line may include a ram, rom, I/O ports, etc. This could cause the processor to "hang up" and act erratic. A schematic of the board would be helpfull if you have one. Sandy On 1/18/15, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 1/18/2015 12:07 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> No, I checked that and it isn't. It is an active low signal and it is >> high. >> >> Regards >> >> Rob > > What about the READY pin? Stuck low? > > Bob > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony >> duell >>> Sent: 18 January 2015 19:16 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault >>> >>>> The terminal controller board on my VT101 is not working, if it >>>> displays anything it is random characters. I have used my scope to >>>> check the 8085 CPU. It has power, it is outputting a valid clock, but >>>> there is no activity on the RD,WR and ALE pins. I am guessing the 8085 >>>> is bad, but before I go replacing it I wanted to check if anyone knew >>>> of anything else that might cause the 8085 to misbehave (ie am I seeing >>> symptoms or a cause?). >>> >>> What is the state of the reset input to the 8085? In other words, is the >> CPU >>> being held reset all the time? >>> >>> -tony >>> = >> > > > -- > Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your foot in > it. > I've been practising it for years. > -Prince Philip > > From lists at loomcom.com Mon Jan 19 13:45:16 2015 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 13:45:16 -0600 Subject: Still seeking 3B2 information Message-ID: <20150119194516.GA9021@loomcom.com> Hi everyone, I've made tremendous progress on my 3B2 emulator. It's being implemented under the SIMH simulator platform, which has been a huge help. My WE32100 core is getting closer to being complete. I'd consider it alpha quality right now, but it has enough instruction coverage to pass the 3B2's power-on self tests and to (barely) run some of the 3B2 firmware mode tools. Implementing the WE32100 core has been thanks to the processor manual and assembly language manuals that are available on BitSavers, but outside of the CPU, virtually all of my understanding of the 3B2's architecture has come from studying the ROMs and the SYSVR3 source code. I've also been helped by having remote access to a running 3B2 so I can assemble and disassemble code using the real AT&T tools. Beyond that, I have found precious little documentation. I'm at the point now where I'm pretty well stuck until I can find more information. I understand large chunks of the memory map now and should be able to do things like simulate the floppy and hard disk controller, but there are large gaps in my understanding. There are many undocumented registers that are used by the firmware, but don't appear in the SYSV source code anywhere. What they mean and what they're for is anybody's guess. I've just stubbed them out for now. If anybody has access to schematics, architecture docs, or other memory map information, I'd be eternally grateful if you could share it! -Seth From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 19 14:03:46 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:03:46 -0800 Subject: Still seeking 3B2 information In-Reply-To: <20150119194516.GA9021@loomcom.com> References: <20150119194516.GA9021@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <54BD6322.60503@bitsavers.org> On 1/19/15 11:45 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Implementing the WE32100 core has been thanks to the processor manual > and assembly language manuals that are available on BitSavers, but > outside of the CPU, virtually all of my understanding of the 3B2's > architecture has come from studying the ROMs and the SYSVR3 source > code. What about the two documents I just uploaded? http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/att/3b2_hardware/ From lists at loomcom.com Mon Jan 19 14:14:28 2015 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:14:28 -0600 Subject: Still seeking 3B2 information In-Reply-To: <54BD6322.60503@bitsavers.org> References: <20150119194516.GA9021@loomcom.com> <54BD6322.60503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20150119201428.GA12162@loomcom.com> * On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 12:03:46PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/19/15 11:45 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > >Implementing the WE32100 core has been thanks to the processor manual > >and assembly language manuals that are available on BitSavers, but > >outside of the CPU, virtually all of my understanding of the 3B2's > >architecture has come from studying the ROMs and the SYSVR3 source > >code. > > What about the two documents I just uploaded? > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/att/3b2_hardware/ Oh yes! Sorry Al, I should have mentioned those two as well, you sent them along to me a couple of weeks ago and I never thanked you. They provided very useful details about the bus autoconfiguration. My most critical need right now is for more about the internals of the main system board, I hope something will be dug up at some point. Best wishes, -Seth From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 19 14:48:04 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 20:48:04 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of sandy > hamlet > Sent: 19 January 2015 19:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > Using a scope, look at the address lines and/or data lines at power up, just after > system reset. > The pulses will probably vary in width but should all be the same amplitude. > If you see something like stair stepping: where a pulse starts out at > 5 volts and drops, for example to 3 volts and then drops to 0 volts, then you > might have two devices trying to access the same line at the same time. > Devices on the same line may include a ram, rom, I/O ports, etc. > This could cause the processor to "hang up" and act erratic. > A schematic of the board would be helpfull if you have one. > Sadly, that is the one thing that does not seem to be available. If anyone does know of a print set for the VT101 please let me know. Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 19 15:26:57 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 21:26:57 -0000 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com> In my latest tests I found that the CPU does indeed seem to HALT, according to S1 and S0 (both go low). Sometimes this is immediate, other times it happens after 15-20 seconds. When it goes for longer it displays more random characters on the screen and lights more lights on the keyboard. But it never lights all the lights and it does not sound the bell. This happened even after reseating the only socketed chip, which is marked CN55004N 8232, DEC TP03, 23-028E4-00, I have no idea what it is as I can't find any info on it. The random nature of the halt is a concern. If it was bad ROM I would expect it to always fail in the same place, unless the ROM is somehow marginal and gives different results every time. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 19 January 2015 20:48 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of sandy > > hamlet > > Sent: 19 January 2015 19:38 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > > > Using a scope, look at the address lines and/or data lines at power > > up, just after system reset. > > The pulses will probably vary in width but should all be the same amplitude. > > If you see something like stair stepping: where a pulse starts out at > > 5 volts and drops, for example to 3 volts and then drops to 0 volts, > > then you might have two devices trying to access the same line at the same > time. > > Devices on the same line may include a ram, rom, I/O ports, etc. > > This could cause the processor to "hang up" and act erratic. > > A schematic of the board would be helpfull if you have one. > > > > Sadly, that is the one thing that does not seem to be available. If anyone does > know of a print set for the VT101 please let me know. > > Thanks > > Rob From db at db.net Mon Jan 19 15:28:42 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 16:28:42 -0500 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20150119212842.GA82412@night.db.net> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 08:48:04PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of sandy > > hamlet > > Sent: 19 January 2015 19:38 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VT101 8085 CPU Fault > > ... > > might have two devices trying to access the same line at the same time. > > Devices on the same line may include a ram, rom, I/O ports, etc. > > This could cause the processor to "hang up" and act erratic. > > A schematic of the board would be helpfull if you have one. Something like https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decterminachematicFeb82_6949589 ? Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From wilson at dbit.com Mon Jan 19 15:39:30 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 16:39:30 -0500 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com> <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 09:26:57PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: >In my latest tests I found that the CPU does indeed seem to HALT, >according to S1 and S0 (both go low). What ever happened to in-circuit emulators? I used an 8085A ICE in a microprocessors class at Boston U. in the 1980s and it was *magic*. I always wondered how they worked -- is it just an 8085A with a doctored clock, or some complete re-implementation of it, or what? Physically it was a 40-pin DIP plug with a thick cable leading off to a mass of electronics. It's just the kind of thing that would turn up on eBay, but only if you didn't need it. John Wilson D Bit From db at db.net Mon Jan 19 15:45:40 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 16:45:40 -0500 Subject: VT101 8085 CPU Fault In-Reply-To: <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> References: <013b01d03350$5457e0f0$fd07a2d0$@ntlworld.com> <014001d0335a$63cf2f20$2b6d8d60$@ntlworld.com> <54BC135B.4050201@sbcglobal.net> <024f01d03429$38b2f4a0$aa18dde0$@ntlworld.com> <025b01d0342e$a785d410$f6917c30$@ntlworld.com> <20150119213930.GA7144@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20150119214540.GA82653@night.db.net> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 04:39:30PM -0500, John Wilson wrote: > On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 09:26:57PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >In my latest tests I found that the CPU does indeed seem to HALT, > >according to S1 and S0 (both go low). > > What ever happened to in-circuit emulators? I used an 8085A ICE in > a microprocessors class at Boston U. in the 1980s and it was *magic*. > I always wondered how they worked -- is it just an 8085A with a doctored > clock, or some complete re-implementation of it, or what? Physically > it was a 40-pin DIP plug with a thick cable leading off to a mass of > electronics. It's just the kind of thing that would turn up on eBay, > but only if you didn't need it. His problem is he will have to unsolder the 8085 first. I'd suspect RAM since the ROM is (I assume) masked ROM. > > John Wilson > D Bit > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jan 19 15:58:03 2015 From: johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk (John Wallace) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 21:58:03 +0000 Subject: Operating systems of the 1970s handling dates beyond the year 2000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1421704683.21510.YahooMailBasic@web171802.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> "an *awesome* cover letter that DEC sent out with the fix, assuring everyone that the libraries were now good internally until some crazy year like 31078, but there was still formatting code that assumed years fit in four digits so there would be Y10K bugs; but don't worry, DEC will issue a patch to VMS at that time." Sounds a little bit like (but maybe not identical with?) the well known Stan Rabinowicz Leap Year Software Performance Report (SPR) response in 1983 for VMS V3.2? Stashed in various places which search engines should find, currently including HP's website and http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/decly.htm Have a lot of fun John From isking at uw.edu Mon Jan 19 16:08:30 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:08:30 -0800 Subject: Shipping antique computers In-Reply-To: <20150118203355.GG4901@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <36BA6914-5896-4560-9851-6A2C07C3DB74@gmail.com> <20150118203355.GG4901@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: I have a fair amount of experience with this, too. When acquiring a system, often there are a few large cabinets and a bunch of loose items like cables, media and documentation. Put the loose things into boxes, which can then be stacked on the pallet and shrink-wrapped to keep them secure. There's also a pallet called a 'gaylord' that's a cardboard box with a pallet base, which is good for loose items. Depending on the condition of the large cabinets, I would usually ask for cardboard under shrink-wrap. If there are protruding switches, I would either remove those switch panels, wrap them liberally in bubble wrap and put them in the gaylord, or if they couldn't be removed I'd use a thick block of styrofoam, sometimes carved out a bit, taped and shrink-wrapped to the cabinet. One thing to ask: will the cabinets be upright the entire time? With a PDP-15 I had shipped, it was far cheaper if they could ship it on its side. So the seller used styrofoam to ensure that the Flip Chips stayed in place, and got a commitment that it would be shipped on one particular side, i.e. not rotated (he was worried about the power supplies ripping loose). It got to Seattle in fine condition. There are two things about doing your own prep vs. having the shippers do it. For one, if you do it you pay less money (but there is your time). If they do it, there is the question of whether they are competent and/or open to your input. I stopped using MoveIt when I got a crew that didn't give a wet slap about my instructions - it was the first time I received items with e.g., broken casters. (They denied responsibility because of the age of the equipment!) After that I used EMOtrans pretty exclusively, and they were great whether the job was from CA to WA or from Western Australia. Just my random neural firings?. -- Ian On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Marc Verdiell [150118 12:24]: > > Actually I need to learn more about this. What do they exactly do when > they "palletize" things? Does that include wrapping/protecting the item and > lifting/anchoring it on the pallet? How small and how large an item can > they deal with? How much does the service cost? How do you "unpalletize it" > at the other end? Do you need a forklift or a hydraulic pallet moving > thingy on the receiving end? > > > > Marc > > > I've palletized and shipped computer stuff as well as pinball machines > as well as received both on pallets. > > Usually the shipper does the palletizing (unless they pay a pack and > ship type place to do it for them.) You put the item or items on the > pallet and usually band them to the pallet (there are all different > kinds of bands you can use. Plastic bands with an S-clasp are easy to > use but there are metal bands you crimp a clasp onto too as well as all > kinds of others I'm sure.) I usually shrink wrap the items too. Often > with cardboard around them. Sometimes crate them with a plywood box > around the whole pallet. None of these will stop a forklift fork from > going through but help with scuffs from pallets getting moved around. > > I've received pallets with just shrinkwrap holding items on the pallet. > They've made it to me but the items tend to shift when moved around a > lot. > > All the shipping I've done is based on the cubic size of the pallet with > items on top. I believe if you go over the "standard"-ish sized pallets > most probably have an additional charge (I've received some pallet > shipments that required longer forks for the forklift than standard.) > > On the receiving end they can send a lift gate truck for a charge. Most > freight companies want to know if it's coming and going to a residential > or business address. By business address they usually mean a place > that has a forklift or loading dock to unload. Residential usually > means they'll send it on a lift gate truck and usually will call to > arrange a delivery date and time (if it's a business delivery and they show > up during business hours to deliver and no one is there there's usually > a "redelivery" charge.) > > Amost all the freight companies I've dealt with will not go down a > residential driveway (mine is 1/2 mile long so they definitely won't go > down it.) Most send a tractor trailer to deliver. I meet them at the > road with either a tractor with forks or my pickup truck (if they have a > liftgate.) I've rented telehandlers (rough terrain telescoping boom > forklifts) before too (wish I could get myself one of those!) > > The driver will have a pallet jack (a wheeled tool with two forks to go > into/under the pallet and hydraulics that can lift it off the ground an > inch or so to move the palleted items around. > > All freight companies I've dealt with will either get the pallets to the > edge of the back of the truck (for business delivery) or onto the > liftgate and onto the ground. Then it's up to the receiver to take it > from there. > > To unpalletize it your