From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 1 00:14:52 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 00:14:52 -0500 Subject: Just a reminder In-Reply-To: <551B6D4F.8050007@sydex.com> References: <551B6D4F.8050007@sydex.com> Message-ID: <551B7ECC.2070206@pico-systems.com> On 03/31/2015 11:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > This talk of tape gear reminds me that some may not have > seen the availability in Wichita of some tape gear and the > like I posted back in July. > > Such as StorageTek 9-track, Tandberg QIC, Exabyte 8mm, > Xerox-branded 9 track, at least one working 3480, Avix > UNIBUS tape controller boards, etc. A couple of PDP > 11/34s; you get the idea. > Hmmm, I should throw out that I have an Aviv Q-bus tape controller for Storage Tek drives. We had 2 Storage Tek drives on our VAX 780, and then moved one of the drives over to our MicroVAX. If anybody is interested, let me know. Jon From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 00:35:53 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 22:35:53 -0700 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion Message-ID: <00ba01d06c3d$b9462050$2bd260f0$@gmail.com> > So the roller on my -85A tape drive is marginally ok [.]. While the >second option would work, according to the video it "just barely makes the >capstan roller contact the bottom portion of the tape capstan wheel". That >concerns me, as if it's "barely making contact" I'm concerned that over time >this would wear the capstan roller motor shaft and perhaps wear down the >wheel, not to mention potential vibration. It doesn't wear the shaft, does not cause vibrations. But it eventually wears out the edge of the rubber replacement you put over the capstan (shrink tube or surgical tubing in my case). Eventually it fails and you have to put a new one. Annoying. > So. two questions: What SHOULD the outer diameter of a good capstan roller > be on that drive Dunno. If you have a semi good capstan, can you measure it? Apparently it's not critical, since I got the tapes working OK with a thin shrink tube coating as well as a thick surgical tube coating. >does anyone have other suggestions for how to make the capstan roller "taller"? I can think of at least two solutions. Solution one is to glue a metal or plastic "puck" of the same diameter as the bare roller on top of it before recoating it. It's simpler than machining the cap I show in my video, but you still need to have someone machine a simple disk part on a lathe. That should be pretty cheap. Solution two requires someone good at making rubber. It would be to cast a rubber cap of the right diameter and thickness, and with a pocket on the bottom so you can slip it or glue it over the existing bare capstan. So you would not need to machine anything, just slip it over the bare capstan. If anyone knows about an outfit that can do this, or can explain to me how to cast rubber, let me know. Marc From christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com Wed Apr 1 01:09:35 2015 From: christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com (Christopher Parish) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 06:09:35 +0000 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <551B6CCF.9090308@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se>, <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se>, <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA5D@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC21@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551B6CCF.9090308@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC60@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> > This sounds strange. Are you sure you are not just fiddling with the > head here? A head switch will taste like a seek, but it might actually > not move you as you would expect... > Johnny The head bit is not adjacent to the cylinder offset field in the command word, and I've verified with the logic analyzer that my intended commands are being sent. Actually, it's ironic because the head alignment on my drive is near perfect. I can switch heads and I am on the same track, opposite side, every time. Now I'm almost certain this seeking problem has something to do with the logic on the drive because so far, the drive only ever mis-seeks when trying to land on an odd numbered track. The controller re-issues the seek, but there's a time penalty. A normal single track seek on my drive takes ~12ms. Most bad seeks to odd numbered tracks tend to take me an additional track beyond what I wanted, requiring another ~12ms seek to get back on track. Not that performance is a key factor here, but I'd like to understand why this is happening. Christopher From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 1 01:27:21 2015 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 08:27:21 +0200 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC60@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se>, <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se>, <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA5D@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC21@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551B6CCF.9090308@update.uu.se> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC60@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: >> This sounds strange. Are you sure you are not just fiddling with the >> head here? A head switch will taste like a seek, but it might actually >> not move you as you would expect... >> Johnny > > The head bit is not adjacent to the cylinder offset field in the command > word, and I've verified with the logic analyzer that my intended commands > are being sent. Actually, it's ironic because the head alignment on my > drive is near perfect. I can switch heads and I am on the same track, > opposite side, every time. > > Now I'm almost certain this seeking problem has something to do with the > logic on the drive because so far, the drive only ever mis-seeks when > trying to land on an odd numbered track. The controller re-issues the > seek, but there's a time penalty. > > A normal single track seek on my drive takes ~12ms. Most bad seeks to odd > numbered tracks tend to take me an additional track beyond what I wanted, > requiring another ~12ms seek to get back on track. Not that performance > is a key factor here, but I'd like to understand why this is happening. > > Christopher Could this odd behavior have something to do with the revision of the internal RL02 controller board? From what I remember, there a 3 versions of this board. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 1 01:55:41 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 08:55:41 +0200 Subject: SGI Origin side skins In-Reply-To: References: <551B13AD.8030401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150401065541.GA4683@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 07:37:54PM -0400, Sean Caron wrote: > Just my opinion but if no functional issue I'd probably just leave them as > they are... I agree! Try to clean the plastic in place, be careful with the solvent you choose. Test whatever you clean it with on a spot that is not visible. > I'm not sure if this was such an issue on the higher end systems i.e. > Octane, Origin/Onyx, Tezro, etc. but if I were in your shoes, my concern > would be that the side skins could fracture or shear in the process of > being removed or reinstalled. My experience is that the skins on the Octane, Indigo, Indy and Personal Iris holds upp pretty well. The O2 and Indigo2 are ok, but you have to be careful. The Origin 200 and Origin 2000 are absolutely horrible!! Strangely the Onyx2 seems to hold up better, it has been suggested that the blue color in the O200 and O2k might be involved and the Onyx2 is purple. The rack version has metal tabs where the deskside have plastics. I've never seen an original Onyx, Challenge or Crimson but I've read they are fairly brittle as well. That being said, I have an Origin2000 with the skins removed and I could look at them to see if I can figure how the sides comes. The reason I haven't put the skins back on is that lots of little pieces broke off when it was removed and as long as the machine is in storage it is probably best to leave them off. I expect to spend some time repairing when time comes to assemble it. Regards, Pontus. From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 03:07:13 2015 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 10:07:13 +0200 Subject: More random identifying In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 01 Apr 2015, at 00:40 , Kyle Owen wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> Well, I can tell you the Harris boards didn't come out of a D1200 series >> switch; they're too small :O > > > Heh, these are about as big as Data General NOVA boards, I'm estimating. > > Does anyone have any experience with the Harris H800 systems? That's my > suspicion. > > Kyle I thought the "military computer" thing looked like a "Rolm Military Computer" that I came across at eBay some time back, which was supposedly somewhat compatible with the DG Nova (or even based on it). I just checked, and found this current listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-ROLM-1666B-C-AN-UYK-64-V-Military-Computer-Data-General-Nova-core-mem-/201091386239 From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 1 04:13:43 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 11:13:43 +0200 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <000e01d06c10$fdcef620$f96ce260$@classiccmp.org> References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> <001e01d06bf6$33fb04c0$9bf10e40$@xs4all.nl> <002e01d06bf7$faa64840$eff2d8c0$@classiccmp.org> <002801d06bfb$88b8a530$9a29ef90$@xs4all.nl> <000e01d06c10$fdcef620$f96ce260$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003901d06c5c$27860530$76920f90$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jay West > Verzonden: woensdag 1 april 2015 2:16 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: RE: HP-85A tape drive conversion > > Rik wrote... > ---- > But this type of drive has issues about the running off the tape every once in a > while. > Somehow the tape end detection not always detects the end of a DC2000 etc.. > It suspect the tape controller hardware, but I didn't researched it so it's for the > best an educated guess. > ---- > A quick read through the assembler manual for the 85 throws up all kinds of > cautions specifically about assembly code causing issues with the tape coming > off the spool, seemed a known issue. Just saying - it may be a software issue not > a hardware issue. > > J Jay, I think there is some confusion, the HP-85 QIC modification I wrote and placed at the HP-85 Yahoo group works. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hpseries80/files/QIC%20conversion/ The change of the resistor is necessary to increase the write current, to compensate the higher permeability of the DC2000 / QIC40/80 tapes. The HP 98X5 series and the HP 264X terminals are using another type of drive and different controllers then the HP-85. Issues here are: HP 9825 A/B/T and HP 9831A spurious tape roll-off's (tape winding of the reel when rewinding) HP 9835/45 all types, QIC tapes can't be formatted because the internal tape counter (controller chip) gets an overflow due to extended tape lenght. Can be solved by virtually shortening the tape by making new EOT holes. HP 264X basic test works but I did no extended testing because I got some DMA problems with the terminals, but the tape speed is much higher as the speed of the HP-85. Write current to use the QIC tapes instead of the original HP tapes is always higher, the article describes how to do this for the HP-85 and HP 9825/31 series. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 1 04:37:28 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 11:37:28 +0200 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <00ba01d06c3d$b9462050$2bd260f0$@gmail.com> References: <00ba01d06c3d$b9462050$2bd260f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003d01d06c5f$78cae480$6a60ad80$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Marc Verdiell > Verzonden: woensdag 1 april 2015 7:36 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: RE: HP-85A tape drive conversion > > > So the roller on my -85A tape drive is marginally ok [.]. While the > >second option would work, according to the video it "just barely makes > >the capstan roller contact the bottom portion of the tape capstan > >wheel". That concerns me, as if it's "barely making contact" I'm > >concerned that over > time > >this would wear the capstan roller motor shaft and perhaps wear down > >the wheel, not to mention potential vibration. > > It doesn't wear the shaft, does not cause vibrations. But it eventually wears out > the edge of the rubber replacement you put over the capstan (shrink tube or > surgical tubing in my case). Eventually it fails and you have to put a new one. > Annoying. > > > So. two questions: What SHOULD the outer diameter of a good capstan > > roller be on that drive > Dunno. If you have a semi good capstan, can you measure it? Apparently it's not > critical, since I got the tapes working OK with a thin shrink tube coating as well > as a thick surgical tube coating. > > >does anyone have other suggestions for how to make the capstan roller > "taller"? > > I can think of at least two solutions. > > Solution one is to glue a metal or plastic "puck" of the same diameter as the > bare roller on top of it before recoating it. It's simpler than machining the cap I > show in my video, but you still need to have someone machine a simple disk part > on a lathe. That should be pretty cheap. > > Solution two requires someone good at making rubber. It would be to cast a > rubber cap of the right diameter and thickness, and with a pocket on the > bottom so you can slip it or glue it over the existing bare capstan. So you would > not need to machine anything, just slip it over the bare capstan. If anyone knows > about an outfit that can do this, or can explain to me how to cast rubber, let me > know. > > M The last option wouldn't work because the top of the capstan would be to flexible, which would prevent a constant drive of the tape roller. I'm using a simpler method than I described in the original article, I'm using a piece 10mm aluminum tube of the right length. Then machine the capstan to the right size ~8 mm (a little over size) and press the tube piece with some 2k glue over the capstan. When the glue is dried enough I machine the capstan to the right size, and glue the rubber to it. https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/9450004845/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/9450011579/ It's a little easier to do then the methode described in the original article. -Rik From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 1 05:01:56 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 11:01:56 +0100 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC60@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se>, <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se>, <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA5D@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC21@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551B6CCF.9090308@update.uu.se> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC60@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <551BC214.90404@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/04/2015 07:09, Christopher Parish wrote: > On 01/04/2015 04:58, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> This sounds strange. Are you sure you are not just fiddling with >> the head here? A head switch will taste like a seek, but it might >> actually not move you as you would expect... > Actually, it's ironic because the > head alignment on my drive is near perfect. I can switch heads and I > am on the same track, opposite side, every time. That doesn't necessarily mean they're perfectly aligned, because the servo will correct for small differences. Switching heads and still being on the same track is what's supposed to happen even if the heads are almost half a track off. You'd need to check with a scope to be sure. > A normal single track seek on my drive takes ~12ms. That's about right, if a shade fast. "Less than 17ms" is nominal; mine take about 14-15ms. Have you tried setting up an oscillating seek over longer distances? It should be about 55ms for 170 tracks, and a little less than 100ms (about 95ms on mine) for 511 tracks. > Most bad seeks > to odd numbered tracks tend to take me an additional track beyond > what I wanted, requiring another ~12ms seek to get back on track. That's similar to what mine did with a faulty DLM, although I don't know that it made a difference whether the destination was an odd or even track. I did notice that sometimes the heads would move beyond track 511 into the guard area in the centre of the disk, and the times went up from ~95ms to around 110ms or more. It no longer does that, of course. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 1 05:02:57 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 11:02:57 +0100 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se>, <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se>, <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA5D@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC21@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551B6CCF.9090308@update.uu.se> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC60@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <551BC251.2080708@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/04/2015 07:27, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Could this odd behavior have something to do with the revision of the > internal RL02 controller board? From what I remember, there a 3 versions > of this board. Indeed, but the earliest (54-12175) only works on an RL01 (the second is 54-13531, used on RL02s as well), and the third (54-14025) has (at least) three variations I've seen. One is used for drives with brushes, those modified to Rev. K1 and L1 have have obvious mods to deal with the lack of brushes and take a while to bring a pack ready after pressing load, and the later variations have no visible wired mods and bring the pack ready much more quickly. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 1 05:01:39 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 11:01:39 +0100 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <551B6CCF.9090308@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se>, <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se>, <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA5D@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC21@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <551B6CCF.9090308@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <551BC203.7000201@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/04/2015 04:58, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-04-01 05:26, Christopher Parish wrote: >> Thanks for your help everyone. I finally figured out what was >> happening. Something is wrong with my (everyone's?) drives. >> In the process, I have confirmed that sometimes the drive does >> mis-seek when making larger jumps across the pack. A single follow up >> seek is almost always enough. > This sounds strange. Are you sure you are not just fiddling with the > head here? A head switch will taste like a seek, but it might actually > not move you as you would expect... It does sound strange. As I mentioned a couple of days ago, I've been ministering to an RL02 that occasionally had problems on the outer tracks (possibly elsewhere but I never noticed that). Copying packs and almost all seek/read/write worked fine but a very few operations didn't. All the voltage, alignment and timing tests in the technical manual checked out except for jitter running the oscillating seek tests (access time checks) - especially for longer seeks. To cut a long story short, there was a fault in the drive's DLM. Replacing it removed the jitter and the drive now behaves perfectly. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 1 08:23:15 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 06:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <000e01d06bff$62712880$27537980$@classiccmp.org> References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> <001f01d06bf6$5da81dd0$18f85970$@xs4all.nl> <000e01d06bff$62712880$27537980$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Jay West wrote: > Gene, that may not be a problem. The existing roller is rubber around a > metal shaft. The shaft is thicker at the top under the roller. So I suspect > that if the existing rubber was removed, you printed a round solid cylinder > that was the same diameter and could be glued on top of the existing thicker > portion of the shaft, and then rubber or surgical tubing was put around both > solid pieces together... that may just do the magic. > So it looks like he made a little cap over the top - that's a very simple print. If you can get me dimensions I can print you a few. I want his lathe. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 1 12:49:59 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 13:49:59 -0400 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se> <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA5D@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC21@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <8CAF9AF9-19C2-4E1E-BCD0-654022EB5D25@comcast.net> > On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:41 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:26 PM, Christopher Parish > wrote: >> Thanks for your help everyone. I finally figured out what was happening. Something is wrong with my (everyone's?) drives. >> ...this could be totally normal, and the controllers/software drivers hide it. > > I'd have to dig out driver code (perhaps rl.c from 2BSD would be the > quickest to read and digest if you already know C) but IIRC, yes... > all the drivers "hide this" because that's what the drives do. I > don't know chapter and verse about how they handle multiple 1-track > seek fails (the OS/8 RL8A driver probably has the least room for fancy > footwork), but they should all handle this to one degree or another. The general rule of device drivers is to assume that the hardware is misbehaving, and double check everything. If it looks like the seek didn?t work right, reissue it, or tell the drive to recalibrate and then reissue it, or whatever it takes to beat the device into conformance. In the case of the RL01/02, the details are a bit different because seek is by delta rather than absolute cylinder number, but the basic principle carries over. paul From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Apr 1 13:41:44 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 11:41:44 -0700 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <20150331133757.C0C2518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150331133757.C0C2518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150401114144.5e5cf1a3@asrock.bcwi.net> On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:37:57 -0400 (EDT) jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: > > From: Lyle Bickley > > > I have had packs on rare occasions which when I first obtained > > them had a few records which were unreadable - and a clean > > reformat made them 100% error free. > > Err, I thought RL02 packs came pre-formatted (at least, the low-level > stuff like sector headers, etc), and could not be field re-formatted? > Or are you simply talking of a high-level re-format (i.e. the file > system), which might write all data blocks to zero or something, > thereby getting rid of the un-readable contents of such blocks? high-level - as in: RT-11 ----- INITIALIZE/REPLACE ... Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 1 13:55:45 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 14:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics Message-ID: <20150401185545.B04BF18C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > The general rule of device drivers is to assume that the hardware is > misbehaving, and double check everything. Right, but it needs to _actively log_ when it has to fix something, otherwise you wind up in the situation of the semi-famous old Multics problem where (IIRC) the system was running slower and slower... finally someone looked at the Disk DIM (driver) counters, and one drive was slowly failing, but the industrial-strength recovery code in the Multics Disk DIM was masking the problem (except for the performance degradation). The DIM was thereupon modified to notify the operator if 'too many' retries had to be done 'too often'. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 1 14:04:53 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 15:04:53 -0400 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <20150401185545.B04BF18C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150401185545.B04BF18C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8C4C6FAC-A1BC-456F-A91E-0EBD3A0ED64A@comcast.net> > On Apr 1, 2015, at 2:55 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> The general rule of device drivers is to assume that the hardware is >> misbehaving, and double check everything. > > Right, but it needs to _actively log_ when it has to fix something, otherwise > you wind up in the situation of the semi-famous old Multics problem where > (IIRC) the system was running slower and slower... Certainly. And, for example, RSTS/E contains an error logging daemon for that reason. (Well, RSTS doesn?t call background programs daemons, but that?s what they amount to.) paul From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 1 13:54:31 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 13:54:31 -0500 Subject: Looking for: Moniterm Viking 2400 In-Reply-To: <551B7894.3030607@gmail.com> References: <551B7894.3030607@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:48 PM 3/31/2015, Josh Dersch wrote: >OK, long shot. I gave one of these away years ago and I wish I hadn't; anyone have a Moniterm Viking 2400 monitor they'd part with? This is a large (24") B&W monitor from the late 80s. I still have the Mac Nubus card to drive it... They were used in the Amiga and Atari markets, too, weren't they, with specialized video cards? Or was that only their 19" monitors? - John From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 1 14:18:05 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 21:18:05 +0200 Subject: OT: For the disbelevers ;) Yoda wasn't wrong ! Message-ID: <005701d06cb0$94f08920$bed19b60$@xs4all.nl> http://home.web.cern.ch/about/updates/2015/04/cern-researchers-confirm-exist ence-force Enjoy, -Rik From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 14:36:50 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 15:36:50 -0400 Subject: Looking for: Moniterm Viking 2400 In-Reply-To: <20150401190635.3A7062073EF0@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <551B7894.3030607@gmail.com> <20150401190635.3A7062073EF0@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 2:54 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 11:48 PM 3/31/2015, Josh Dersch wrote: >>OK, long shot. I gave one of these away years ago and I wish I hadn't; anyone have a Moniterm Viking 2400 monitor they'd part with? This is a large (24") B&W monitor from the late 80s. I still have the Mac Nubus card to drive it... > > They were used in the Amiga and Atari markets, too, weren't they, > with specialized video cards? Or was that only their 19" monitors? I have the 19" Viking greyscale monitor with the corresponding Amiga card (1008 x 1008 w/quarter-screen panelized refresh) It was great for writing code. I don't remember anything larger from the day. -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 1 16:11:09 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 22:11:09 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-300 Available in the UK In-Reply-To: References: <09b501d06aad$d64b7420$82e25c60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: The machine has now been collected, and is travelling to its new home in good hands. Thanks Rob On 31 March 2015 at 03:20, Ian S. King wrote: > Thanks for passing that along, Rob! Cheers -- Ian > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:53 PM, Robert Jarratt < > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: > > > It has been claimed, so it is going to a good home. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian > S. > > King > > > Sent: 30 March 2015 01:45 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-300 Available in the UK > > > > > > I have a running 4000/300, and these are a very nice machine - it's my > > usual > > > go-to VMS box. I hope someone picks it up and gives it some TLC! > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Jarratt RMA < > > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I have a VAX 4000-300 that I want to pass on as I don't have room for > > it. > > > > It is in a BA440 enclosure (marked VAX 4000-400). The CPU board had a > > > > couple of problems, the levers that are used to push it into the slot > > > > have been broken, however it will push into the slot OK and work. The > > > > onboard Ethernet (SGEC) is also not working, but I have included a > > > > DESQA so you can network it. It has 64MB of memory (2x 32MB). It also > > has a > > > CXY08 board. > > > > > > > > It does not have any disks because I want to keep the few DSSI disks > I > > > > have, however I will include two DSSI covers. You can still boot it > as > > > > a satellite of course. In fact I was toying with the idea of putting > a > > > > Raspberry Pi inside the enclosure with a crossover LAN cable and > > > > running if off SIMH on that. > > > > > > > > It is free, however I would appreciate a small donation, as it has > > > > cost me money to collect it to save it from being dumped. > > > > > > > > It is in the UK, in South Manchester. Although I am currently working > > > > a lot in Coventry so could bring it to that area. I will also be at > > > > DEC Legacy in Windermere 11-12 April, although I would prefer to > leave > > > > room in my car for the machines I want to exhibit, if possible. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School > > > > > > > > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > > Value > > > Sensitive Design Research Lab > > > > > > University of Washington > > > > > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 18:21:36 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 16:21:36 -0700 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37392026D0564C438993F7AF742BF9ED@workshop> geneb wrote: >So it looks like he made a little cap over the top - that's a very simple >print. If you can get me dimensions I can print you a few. Yep that's what I did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IQKCiS0w2s inspiring myself from Rick's drawing (thanks Rick). It's a very small part though, not sure if you can print something that small accurately unless you have a professional printer. The cap I made was 6mm high, 9.6mm in diameter, with a cavity 3mm deep of 6.30mm diameter at the bottom for the capstan to go in. It required me to reduce the original capstan diameter to the 6.30mm so it could fit in the cavity though. That's what I was trying to avoid with my two alternate proposals (for people that don't have a lathe...) Speaking of which >I want his lathe. :) Mwahahaha. Nooooo. It's all miiiiine. Sadly they don't make them anymore, I got one of the last ones. - Marc From seefriek at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:04:43 2015 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 20:04:43 -0400 Subject: R8000 Re: SGI Indigo2 graphics options Message-ID: From: Sean Caron > You are right, even the interactive performance of the R8K had me a bit > taken aback...But I understand in its day it really flew on the FP codes; Yup. The R8000 was pretty specifically designed to be a desktop super, for some value of "super". And for 1995, it was pretty remarkable. It was the first superscaler MIPS, and the dedicated FP unit was pretty much pushing the envelope on single chip tech. But integer performance wasn't a priority, and you could tell. > I don't know if this claim was ever really substantiated in the real world The MIPSPro compilers usually did a really good job of optimizing for the R8000, and for the jobs it was designed for (non-vectorizable floating point) it really flew (300ish MFLOPS...which for 1995 was nothing short of amazing in a desktop). I would note, however, that the common comparison to the Y/MP is pretty much pure marketing. The Y/MP and the R8K were on-par for non-vector FP problems, but as soon as the compiler could substantially vectorize the problem, the Y/MP could be many times faster than the R8K for the same codebase. In the end, we found the R8K was a nice dev machine (due to a good bit of source compatibility between the MIPSPro and Cray compilers), but not generally cost effective, and pretty much outmatched all around by the R10k and later. > But it's a neat little oddball Very. KJ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:11:44 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 19:11:44 -0500 Subject: SGI Origin side skins In-Reply-To: <20150401065541.GA4683@Update.UU.SE> References: <551B13AD.8030401@gmail.com> <20150401065541.GA4683@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <551C8940.5090507@gmail.com> On 04/01/2015 01:55 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 07:37:54PM -0400, Sean Caron wrote: >> Just my opinion but if no functional issue I'd probably just leave them as >> they are... > > I agree! Well, I got it... I ended up removing the I/O card cage, which allowed me to reach through the holes in the framework below (the fan tray was already out, obviously) so that I could access the plastic clips on the reverse side of the rear plastic molding. There are six clips, four along the top and two farther down, but I only needed to unhook the top four (one at a time, while applying a little backward pressure to the rear molding so they didn't snap back into place) and then the panel came off. Once that real panel's off, the side panels just lift up and off very easily. Access is really tight doing it that way though, and I confess to breaking* a locating lug in the center of the rear molding while I was removing it, so I can't help but think that the official procedure is different! * not critical to reassembly, thankfully. I might glue it back on so I can break it again the next time :-) Or I might just leave the rear molding off altogether - once the machine's sitting up near a wall, it's not particularly critical to looks, other than the lower couple of inches where it just wraps around to the sides. > Try to clean the plastic in place, be careful with the solvent > you choose. Test whatever you clean it with on a spot that is not > visible. Soap, very hot water and a toothbrush did the trick! I considered some form of more aggressive cleaning solution, but decided that I didn't want to risk it. > The O2 and Indigo2 are ok, but you have to be careful. Getting the case back on my Indigo2 was a major pain in the butt > > The Origin 200 and Origin 2000 are absolutely horrible!! Strangely the > Onyx2 seems to hold up better, it has been suggested that the blue color > in the O200 and O2k might be involved and the Onyx2 is purple. Maybe, although this (blue) Origin 2200 seems fine - perhaps there's a heat/sunlight element involved too, though. > That being said, I have an Origin2000 with the skins removed and I could > look at them to see if I can figure how the sides comes. Well, see above - "solved" but I have a feeling that SGI's official procedure is different to what I did. Or maybe it just wasn't something that was ever really done in the field, and they had a special tool back at service centers to pop the tabs via the front of the fan bay (furthermore, if they were replacing side skins at a customer site I can believe that they might just replace the rear molding too, and so it wouldn't matter if they broke the old one). > The reason I haven't put the skins back on is that lots of little pieces > broke off when it was removed and as long as the machine is in storage > it is probably best to leave them off. I expect to spend some time > repairing when time comes to assemble it. Makes sense! cheers Jules From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 1 19:14:03 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 17:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <37392026D0564C438993F7AF742BF9ED@workshop> References: <37392026D0564C438993F7AF742BF9ED@workshop> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Apr 2015, Marc Verdiell wrote: > geneb wrote: >> So it looks like he made a little cap over the top - that's a very simple >> print. If you can get me dimensions I can print you a few. > > Yep that's what I did: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IQKCiS0w2s > inspiring myself from Rick's drawing (thanks Rick). It's a very small part > though, not sure if you can print something that small accurately unless you > have a professional printer. > I've printed instrument needles that are 1.5mm wide and .5mm thick. The thinnest layer height I've printed with is 50 micron. That took 2.5 hours to print a 25mm square cube. :) > The cap I made was 6mm high, 9.6mm in diameter, with a cavity 3mm deep of > 6.30mm diameter at the bottom for the capstan to go in. It required me to > reduce the original capstan diameter to the 6.30mm so it could fit in the > cavity though. That's what I was trying to avoid with my two alternate > proposals (for people that don't have a lathe...) > That's actually a fairly good sized part. > Speaking of which >> I want his lathe. :) > Mwahahaha. Nooooo. It's all miiiiine. Sadly they don't make them anymore, I > got one of the last ones. > What I need to do is get off my butt and get a 4th axis (rotary) added to my ShopBot. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au Wed Apr 1 19:41:15 2015 From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (evan.linwood at eastek.com.au) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 00:41:15 +0000 Subject: Help needed please re possible loss of a Burroughs B7800 CPU Message-ID: <285cfc72c09f345f1106accc5be49aee1c96456e@webmail.netregistry.net> For those who don't know, Monash University (Melbourne Australia) has had the chassis of a B7800 CPU sitting around under a stoir case, left over from the days when a series of large Burroughs systems had been in use there during the seventies. I'm no expert on Burroughs systems, but from all the Internet based trawling I've done over the years it appears that Burroughs had a 'scorched earth' policy, and systematically reclaimed and disposed of all B5000 and onward family machines. At least to date, I haven't been able to find any other surviving example of a B5000 family machine (or major components). Naturally I'd be very happy to be proved wrong. Unfortunately all cards and power supplies had been removed but it still had the basic frame, backplane (very impressive in it's own right) and two large front control panels all in place (also very impressive). (I've been told that the front panels were pulled prior to disposal). Many of you will be familiar with Ralph Klimek and his amazing stories of life as a technician with these machines. He has some pictures of this particular frame, about mid way down this page on his site: http://users.monash.edu.au/~ralphk/burroughs.html Because I live close by, I was dropping in every so often to check up on both this frame, and a (smaller) VAX 11/780 sitting next to it. Because the Uni has quite a decent vintage computer display in place at it's Caulfied campus, I had felt comfortable that both machines were safe. On a relatively recent visit (a few months ago, late last year? I'm not quite sure as life is a bit of a blur at present) I noticed that both machines had gone, and that some renovations were taking place in the building. I felt that the machines must be safe but decided I should try and make contact to be sure (working in ICT for so long, I should have known not to trust an assumption), A few days ago I got a note back saying that the Uni had requested the builders to remove the B7800 chassis and dispose of it (the 11/780 was moved to the Caufield collection). Since then I've gone on a bit of a campaign to try and find out of the machine might still be sitting somewhere with the builder (or their sub-contracter). It's a very long shot, but in this case I think most here on the list would agree it's worth it? Apparently the scrap metal value would be quite low at the moment, and hopefully whoever has it has been too busy to deal with disposal yet (a long shot, as I said). I've managed to speak to numerous people both inside the Uni and the builder, but have realised from them that my enquiries now need to be pushed four ways - into two Schools within the Uni, and also two service departments.?My problem is that I'm attempting to get a startup software company off the ground, so time isn't something that I've got any of, let trying to push my way through contacting people within four different internal departments (and sitting through all the on-hold music, call transfers & drop outs). I don't think that the Uni wants this chassis at the end of the day.? Is there anyone who can attack this at a higher level? I'm happy to pass on relevant details to anyone who could help positively (I don't want to cause unnecessary aggravation by posting everything here, the people I've spoken to have already been as helpful as they can). If it's true that it is possibly one of the last existing CPU frames of the B5000 family, and if it went to one of the major Museums in the US as a result, that would be a great outcome (if it still exists at all). Regards Evan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 21:31:31 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 21:31:31 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> <20150331060547.GB15638@Update.UU.SE> <551B45C1.9040901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <551CAA03.3010103@gmail.com> On 03/31/2015 08:46 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Sorry, it's a teal cabinet; I'm crass; I call them "green" and "purple", > respectively, for non-Impact and Impact I2s :) :-) I think one of the SGI's did have green on it - I wonder if it wasn't one of the early IRIS systems, though. But I think SGI would work with people and create custom colors for the MIPS-era machines if they wanted, no doubt for a hefty price. > [R8k] > But it's a neat little oddball; I like having a white elephant around. Yup :) I know what you mean, it's not as though any of this stuff is going to be *fast* in modern terms, so rare/goofy is often more fun. > I guess I was just lucky to get into the hobby at the right time ca. > 1999-2001 when a lot of this particular gear just happened to be hitting > the secondhand market... I got a lot of my gear from a great guy, Herb > Johnson I think he used to be on this list, I'm not sure if he still is, though. > Great that you got a pair of matching feet! Use em! I think the system > looks absolutely gorgeous when on stands. Laying an I2 horizontally on a > desktop does not do it justice, IMO ;) Yeah, I think they look a lot nicer standing up. Given comments about how brittle some of the plastics can be, I'm not sure I'd want to try removing them now anyway ;) > Good luck with the Origin, I've never personally owned any SGI that > large... closest I come is I've got some guts to a Crimson. IIRC that > hardware was considered kind of "finicky" in its day so might not hurt to > run in a reduced config and keep some for spare parts. True. And it's not like I *need* all the boards fitted anyway. It just would have been nice to fire it up as an 8-CPU system just once :-) (the one I had at work back in the day was an 8-CPU machine; I remember Oracle throwing a fit one day, because they licensed per-CPU and had been under the impression for months that it was a single-CPU system) It looks like I've got 3GB of RAM for it - all in 64MB modules. There are a lot of them... cheers Jules From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 02:56:59 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 00:56:59 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 troubleshooting advice In-Reply-To: <5518F656.4060007@dds.nl> References: <5514E487.70702@gmail.com> <5518F656.4060007@dds.nl> Message-ID: <551CF64B.1000507@gmail.com> On 3/30/15 12:08 AM, Simon Claessen wrote: > we have a working 4002a in our museum and I always let it warm up with > a completely illuminated screen for a minute or 5 before clearing the > tube for the first time. that seems to do the trick. I finished restoring the 4014's power supply this evening and as a few of you suggested, leaving it to warm up for a few minutes seems to do the trick; after 3-5 minutes the screen clears fully and everything works as expected -- the stored characters stay crisp (they don't bloom or fade) and the picture is nice and bright. So that's good! Probably a few things are a bit out of tolerance, but I'll accept this behavior rather than risk making things worse by trying to recalibrate it :). Tomorrow (er, later today, I suppose) I'll actually hook it up to a computer and throw some graphics at it... Thanks all! Josh > > On 27-03-15 06:03, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Hi all -- >> >> Picked up a Tektronix 4014-1 terminal. It's in pretty good shape, nice >> and clean and it's in nearly-working condition except that the storage >> behavior isn't quite right. >> >> On power-up, write-through doesn't. (That is, characters don't get >> stored to the tube.) Clearing the display via the RESET/PAGE key clears >> a roughly elliptical region in the center of the display but leaves the >> outer edges a mess. The cleared region stores characters properly. You >> can see the overall effect here: >> >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tek4014/clear.jpg >> >> After a 2-3 minutes of warming up the area cleared by RESET/PAGE >> increases. I haven't run the terminal long enough to see if it >> eventually completely erases the screen (while the power supply appears >> to be within tolerances, I still need to rebuild/reform it so I'm not >> going to run it too long yet). >> >> So far everything else seems to be functioning properly, the cursor >> appears properly (and does not write through), input is accepted from >> the keyboard, etc. I've been reading through the service manual on >> Bitsavers and it describes a very in-depth alignment procedure which I'm >> prepared to go through (once I've got the power supplies rebuilt) but I >> thought I'd ask here if this problem rings any bells and if there's >> anything I should immediately suspect or adjust. You guys know >> everything :). >> >> Thanks as always for the advice, >> Josh >> >> > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 2 07:37:20 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 08:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 troubleshooting advice Message-ID: <20150402123720.CC2A818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > I finished restoring the 4014's power supply So I'm curiuous; what exactly did you do, in restoring the supply? (Given that you'd previously already turned the unit on, and discovered this behaviour?) Just adjust voltages to spec, or more than that? Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 2 07:38:28 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 07:38:28 -0500 Subject: Manual sought - Northern Telecom Spectron D101 Message-ID: <002f01d06d41$ec0a3c60$c41eb520$@classiccmp.org> I had written ---- TSIA I?m in need of an owner?s manual (and ideally, a service manual as well would be nice) for? a Northern Telecom Spectron D101. This is an RS232 serial datascope, basically a line monitor with some programmability (displays in binary, hex, ascii, or octal; start tracking on certain characters; substitute X string for Y string; etc.). I?ve googled excessively with no results, and also reached out to AEK. Any chance someone has one in their pile? ---- FYI, after posting the above I did yet another round of google searches and this time a manual popped up as the very first search result. Odd. Manual purchased, and I'll copy and send off to Al if he wants it for bitsavers. J From fulivi at tiscali.it Thu Apr 2 08:09:35 2015 From: fulivi at tiscali.it (F.Ulivi) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 15:09:35 +0200 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 Message-ID: <551D3F8F.3070508@tiscali.it> Hi everyone, I'm looking for a dump (or the real floppy!) of the ASM-48 assembler that ran on Intel MDS-2 systems. It seems that it is very rare (maybe it didn't sell too well back in its days). After a few days of googling I still have no idea of the Intel part-number for it. Other assemblers (e.g. ASM80) are much more common. The reason I'm looking for it is to re-implement the firmware in the PIO processor (a 8041A) of the MDS-2 emulator I'm writing for MESS. I thought it would be a nice idea to write the firmware by using the system itself: it is a development system after all! I think I've no hope of finding an image of the original firmware. The original PIO is a masked ROM version that Intel produced for itself. The only way to dump it, I guess, is by decapping and photographing the die. By the way, if you are interested, check my preliminary version of the emulator (imds2 in 0.160 release of MESS): it's not complete (PIO it's not there, for example) but it can run all ISIS-II sw I could find. I hope I'm not "offending" anyone in this forum by mentioning an emulator, it looks like you are mostly focused on real (vintage) hardware.. Just out of curiosity: is there anyone among you who owns a MDS-2 system? Thanks! -- F.Ulivi From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 1 10:59:36 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 11:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC-40: Info? Message-ID: Hey all, Should be a bit less silent now I guess. ;) Anyone here exceptionally familiar with the SC-40? I've completed imaging the drive (just microcode and diags, someone want to finish reversing it for use in klh10?) and doing the inspection (actually finished weeks ago but got busy) Now, I have a tape drive working and attached to it via SCSI...however now I'm lacking info on how to actually do a tape bootstrap. ;) http://i.imgur.com/gatos9o.jpg -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Apr 1 12:42:04 2015 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 10:42:04 -0700 Subject: More random identifying In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12C4A309-675D-4F09-8D39-4F0016BE2174@mainecoon.com> On 1 Apr 2015, at 1:07, Raymond Wiker wrote: > I thought the "military computer" thing looked like a "Rolm Military Computer" that I came across at eBay some time back [snip] The ATR-chassis ROLM machines used a radically different board form factor than anything produced by DG; while the ROLM 16xx series machines implemented a superset of the Nova instruction set they were entirely designed in-house and aside from parts of the ISA and the signaling on the NovaBus had nothing in common with the DG machines. Given the markings on the boxes in the photos I?d hazard those are bits of a rate-based autopilot or possibly an INS system. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From scaron at umich.edu Wed Apr 1 15:50:44 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 16:50:44 -0400 Subject: More random identifying In-Reply-To: <12C4A309-675D-4F09-8D39-4F0016BE2174@mainecoon.com> References: <12C4A309-675D-4F09-8D39-4F0016BE2174@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: Or maybe some bits out of a ground-based radar or anti-aircraft missile system? I don't really know much about military equipment... it looks to me like it came out of some kind of ground-based equipment, rather than a ship or an aircraft. If I were you I'd probably open up the "CONTROL COMPUTER" and see what was in there :O It doesn't look like any of the pictures I've ever seen of the Rolm militarized DG-compatible systems. It might just be a bunch of analog electronics! Best, Sean On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > On 1 Apr 2015, at 1:07, Raymond Wiker wrote: > > > I thought the "military computer" thing looked like a "Rolm Military > Computer" that I came across at eBay some time back > > [snip] > > The ATR-chassis ROLM machines used a radically different board form factor > than anything produced by DG; while the ROLM 16xx series machines > implemented a superset of the Nova instruction set they were entirely > designed in-house and aside from parts of the ISA and the signaling on the > NovaBus had nothing in common with the DG machines. > > Given the markings on the boxes in the photos I?d hazard those are bits of > a rate-based autopilot or possibly an INS system. > > -- > Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. > chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 > http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" > > > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 2 08:58:18 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 09:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 Message-ID: <20150402135818.E9DFC18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: F. Ulivi > I hope I'm not "offending" anyone in this forum by mentioning an > emulator, it looks like you are mostly focused on real (vintage) > hardware.. Absolutely not! Although we do indeed focus on vintage hardware, I think we all understand how useful emulators can be, and many (most? all?) of us use them as a useful partner to our old hardware. I certainly do! (If nothing else, they tend to run a lot faster than the actual machines do! :-) Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 2 09:15:32 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 09:15:32 -0500 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: <551D3F8F.3070508@tiscali.it> References: <551D3F8F.3070508@tiscali.it> Message-ID: <003f01d06d4f$7b64ec40$722ec4c0$@classiccmp.org> I have an Intellec MDS system, but I'm not sure exactly which model. Googling seems to just confuse me as to what models there where and which one I have :) Perhaps someone can give a run down of what the different models were? I've very often seen ostensibly the same box referred to as several different model numbers. There was someone on the list at one point that was very much in to the MDS boxes... Mabry perhaps? J From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 2 12:25:00 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 10:25:00 -0700 Subject: Manual sought - Northern Telecom Spectron D101 In-Reply-To: <002f01d06d41$ec0a3c60$c41eb520$@classiccmp.org> References: <002f01d06d41$ec0a3c60$c41eb520$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <551D7B6C.7060803@bitsavers.org> On 4/2/15 5:38 AM, Jay West wrote: > FYI, after posting the above I did yet another round of google searches and > this time a manual popped up as the very first search result. Odd. Manual > purchased, and I'll copy and send off to Al if he wants it for bitsavers. > Seems like a reasonable thing to add to the archive From radioengr at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 13:01:39 2015 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 11:01:39 -0700 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: <551D3F8F.3070508@tiscali.it> References: <551D3F8F.3070508@tiscali.it> Message-ID: <551D8403.9070204@gmail.com> On 4/2/2015 6:09 AM, F.Ulivi wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'm looking for a dump (or the real floppy!) of the ASM-48 assembler > that ran on Intel MDS-2 systems. It seems that it is very rare (maybe it > didn't sell too well back in its days). After a few days of googling I > still have no idea of the Intel part-number for it. Other assemblers > (e.g. ASM80) are much more common. > The reason I'm looking for it is to re-implement the firmware in the PIO > processor (a 8041A) of the MDS-2 emulator I'm writing for MESS. I > thought it would be a nice idea to write the firmware by using the > system itself: it is a development system after all! > I think I've no hope of finding an image of the original firmware. The > original PIO is a masked ROM version that Intel produced for itself. The > only way to dump it, I guess, is by decapping and photographing the die. > By the way, if you are interested, check my preliminary version of the > emulator (imds2 in 0.160 release of MESS): it's not complete (PIO it's > not there, for example) but it can run all ISIS-II sw I could find. > I hope I'm not "offending" anyone in this forum by mentioning an > emulator, it looks like you are mostly focused on real (vintage) hardware.. > > Just out of curiosity: is there anyone among you who owns a MDS-2 system? > > Thanks! > -- F.Ulivi I'm virtually certain that I have ASM48 on an 8 inch ISIS-II formatted floppy disk. I did several products using the 8748/8749 and 8741 (EPROM'd version) during that time frame. I think I know where the diskettes are. I have no way to image the floppy disks, though. Rob. From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 15:04:19 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 15:04:19 -0500 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: <003f01d06d4f$7b64ec40$722ec4c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <551D3F8F.3070508@tiscali.it> <003f01d06d4f$7b64ec40$722ec4c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Howdy, On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Jay West wrote: > I have an Intellec MDS system, but I'm not sure exactly which model. > Googling seems to just confuse me as to what models there where and which > one I have :) That makes two of us.. I still haven't sorted these questions out with respect to my MDS. But I'm pretty sure mine was used for 8048 development work, and I may well have the software the OP is looking for. No way to dupe 8" floppies, though, so I'd have to mail him my original and ask it be returned once he has a good image. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 2 15:58:53 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 21:58:53 +0100 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify Message-ID: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> While sorting through some Unibus cards I've had on a dusty shelf for years, I came across a strange card (picture at https://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/17011635052/). It has no maker's name, but what looks like a zigzag triple S logo near the centre of the top edge, and the legends "2010-60", "2010-6001 C835" and "EM PC" next to that. Apart from 74LS series, it has the following noteworthy ICs: 10 x Texas 74S2472 PROMs on left 4 x 20-pin and 1 x 16-pin ICs look like PALs at lower right 2 x 74LS181 (4-bit ALU) near the centre, with 2 x AMD 27S03 (16x4-bit bipolar RAM) and 4 x AM2907 (quad bus xcvr) 2 x white ceramic gold-top ICs 93L422-DC (256x4 static RAM) 12.5MHz crystal 2 x 7439 (marked "SEL"), 2 x DS8837, 5 x DS8641 12 x 75452 (high current high speed dual-NAND peripheral drivers) and a 50-pin 3M IDC connector and a 2x15-way edge connector on the top edge. Any suggestions as to what it is or who made it? Being a hex-height card but having only CDEF fingers, it's the exception that proves the rule that all Unibus hex cards have all six sets of contacts ;-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull From dmabry at mich.com Thu Apr 2 16:03:51 2015 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 17:03:51 -0400 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: <003f01d06d4f$7b64ec40$722ec4c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <551D3F8F.3070508@tiscali.it> <003f01d06d4f$7b64ec40$722ec4c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <551DAEB7.1010405@mich.com> Jay West wrote on 4/2/2015 10:15 AM: > I have an Intellec MDS system, but I'm not sure exactly which model. Googling seems to just confuse me as to what models there where and which one I have :) > > Perhaps someone can give a run down of what the different models were? I've very often seen ostensibly the same box referred to as several different model numbers. > > There was someone on the list at one point that was very much in to the MDS boxes... Mabry perhaps? > > J > Jay, I sold you an Intel MDS Series II probably about 15 years ago. If that's the one you are talking about, it is either a model 220 or 225 (the 220 is 8080-based and the 225 is 8085-based). Have you fired it up? Dave From dmabry at mich.com Thu Apr 2 16:12:44 2015 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 17:12:44 -0400 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: <551D3F8F.3070508@tiscali.it> References: <551D3F8F.3070508@tiscali.it> Message-ID: <551DB0CC.5090402@mich.com> F.Ulivi wrote on 4/2/2015 9:09 AM: > Hi everyone, > > I'm looking for a dump (or the real floppy!) of the ASM-48 assembler > that ran on Intel MDS-2 systems. It seems that it is very rare (maybe it > didn't sell too well back in its days). After a few days of googling I > still have no idea of the Intel part-number for it. Other assemblers > (e.g. ASM80) are much more common. > The reason I'm looking for it is to re-implement the firmware in the PIO > processor (a 8041A) of the MDS-2 emulator I'm writing for MESS. I > thought it would be a nice idea to write the firmware by using the > system itself: it is a development system after all! > I think I've no hope of finding an image of the original firmware. The > original PIO is a masked ROM version that Intel produced for itself. The > only way to dump it, I guess, is by decapping and photographing the die. > By the way, if you are interested, check my preliminary version of the > emulator (imds2 in 0.160 release of MESS): it's not complete (PIO it's > not there, for example) but it can run all ISIS-II sw I could find. > I hope I'm not "offending" anyone in this forum by mentioning an > emulator, it looks like you are mostly focused on real (vintage) hardware.. > > Just out of curiosity: is there anyone among you who owns a MDS-2 system? > > Thanks! > -- F.Ulivi > Sounds like an interesting project. But I'm a bit confused. I've sent you via private email the assembler you are looking for. What hardware are you looking to write/disassemble code for? Are you talking about something that exists in the hardware of the Intel Series II development system? Off the top of my head the only 8041 is in the keyboard, but I may be forgetting one. I have a few working MDS Series II systems in various configurations. Dave From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 2 17:18:10 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 17:18:10 -0500 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: <551DAEB7.1010405@mich.com> References: <551D3F8F.3070508@tiscali.it> <003f01d06d4f$7b64ec40$722ec4c0$@classiccmp.org> <551DAEB7.1010405@mich.com> Message-ID: <001101d06d92$e7b5d290$b72177b0$@classiccmp.org> Dave wrote... ---- I sold you an Intel MDS Series II probably about 15 years ago. If that's the one you are talking about, it is either a model 220 or 225 (the 220 is 8080-based and the 225 is 8085-based). Have you fired it up? ---- I thought it was Mabry :) Yep, it was fired up many times - I was focused on ISIS when I dug in to it. It hasn't been powered up in a while because it developed a problem with the CRT control board. When I looked in to it in a very cursory fashion, I found a note "intermittent crt control" :) So, it has sat on a shelf till I got some round-tuits. Matter of fact, I just got a junked (partially destroyed) MDS that I believe is the same model, so I could at least swap crt control boards to make sure it was the culprit and then debug from there. Thanks! J From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 2 17:18:57 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 23:18:57 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning Message-ID: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> The other day my RD54 just stopped rotating, dead in its tracks, while it was running. I guessed one of the motor control power transistors may have failed. I assume they are the series of 6 chunky ones attached to a single heatsink. I have desoldered them (en-masse) and tested them with a Peak DCA55 tester, and they all appear to be working. Does anyone have any other suggestions? Has anyone ever repaired an RD54 control board? Regards Rob From dmabry at mich.com Thu Apr 2 18:41:23 2015 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 19:41:23 -0400 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: <001101d06d92$e7b5d290$b72177b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <551D3F8F.3070508@tiscali.it> <003f01d06d4f$7b64ec40$722ec4c0$@classiccmp.org> <551DAEB7.1010405@mich.com> <001101d06d92$e7b5d290$b72177b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <551DD3A3.7040607@mich.com> Jay West wrote on 4/2/2015 6:18 PM: > Dave wrote... > ---- > I sold you an Intel MDS Series II probably about 15 years ago. If that's the one you are talking about, it is either a model 220 or 225 (the 220 is 8080-based and the 225 is 8085-based). > > Have you fired it up? > ---- > I thought it was Mabry :) > > Yep, it was fired up many times - I was focused on ISIS when I dug in to it. It hasn't been powered up in a while because it developed a problem with the CRT control board. When I looked in to it in a very cursory fashion, I found a note "intermittent crt control" :) So, it has sat on a shelf till I got some round-tuits. Matter of fact, I just got a junked (partially destroyed) MDS that I believe is the same model, so I could at least swap crt control boards to make sure it was the culprit and then debug from there. > > Thanks! > > J What is the symptom with the CRT? I think that was the achilles heel of the MDS. It usually was the connectors on the cable to the CRT control board. Some of the pins carry too much current and the heat made them go intermittent. The other problem that I found was on the control board inside of the CRT module. It was usually cold solder joints and a little touch up usually fixed it. From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Apr 2 19:16:35 2015 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 18:16:35 -0600 Subject: keys for HP2100A/S In-Reply-To: <003301d06bfa$30527250$90f756f0$@classiccmp.org> References: <003301d06bfa$30527250$90f756f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <551DDBE3.3070907@Rikers.org> Might be too late to ask, I could use one for my HP-2100A. http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-hp2100a It's also missing one plastic light button. On 03/31/2015 03:32 PM, Jay West wrote: > Today I mailed off a couple HP 2100A/S front panel keys (they are the round > tubular "security key" type) to a fellow listmember in need. I thought I had > a whole box of them, but it turned out virtually all of those were DEC keys. > So I had 3 copies of the key made today (two for the listmember, one extra > for me). When I tested them before dropping them in the mail, 2 worked and 1 > did not (of course, I sent off the 2 that worked to the listmember). > > Since I have to go back to the locksmith to get the 1 key redone, I thought > I'd offer to get keys for the 2100A/S made for anyone that wants them. I > guess it is possible that your 2100A/S may use a different key, but at least > every 2100 I've come across uses the same key. The locksmith charges $8 per > key, and figure $2 bucks for shipping. I'll probably head back to the > locksmith Monday so if anyone is in need, let me know. > > Please note - the keys for HP 1000 aka 21MX M/E/F are completely different > and not what I'm talking about here. Just the 2100A or 2100S. But I guess if > anyone needs keys for those, I can get some made as well. If it's for a 1000 > or MX key, let me know if it's a M series (dual edge key, switch has standby > position) or E/F (single edge key, not a switch just a front door latch). From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 2 19:43:57 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 19:43:57 -0500 Subject: keys for HP2100A/S In-Reply-To: <551DDBE3.3070907@Rikers.org> References: <003301d06bfa$30527250$90f756f0$@classiccmp.org> <551DDBE3.3070907@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <000601d06da7$45b4b0a0$d11e11e0$@classiccmp.org> Tim wrote... ----- Might be too late to ask, I could use one for my HP-2100A. http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-hp2100a It's also missing one plastic light button. ---- I'll add you to the 2100A/S key list. Will probably get them done Monday. Looked at your pics... notice you have the comparatively hard to find "jumper board" for the WCS option. Good score. As to the plastic light buttons, not a chance :) I have a handful or two of spares, but will need them for two 2100's that haven't been restored yet - and they are a high wear/stress part and will always break over time - and I doubt they will be found in the wild anymore... sounds like a project for a 3d printer. Definitely would have to print an entire set, I'm sure it would look very different brightness/color wise. Ok, now that?s two potential needs for a 3d printer... the hp-85A capstan, now the hp 2100 front panel light covers.... one more project in need of a 3d printer here and that increments the level from "want/funToy" to "order one". A thought - your missing cap is the B register select. Kind of an important one. Swap it with Fetch, Ind, or Execute - unless you're doing slightly less than common stuff those aren't important. At least, not as important as being able to select the B register :) J From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 2 20:30:22 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 20:30:22 -0500 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify In-Reply-To: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> References: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <551DED2E.9060002@pico-systems.com> On 04/02/2015 03:58 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > While sorting through some Unibus cards I've had on a > dusty shelf for years, I came across a strange card > (picture at > https://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/17011635052/). > > It has no maker's name, but what looks like a zigzag > triple S logo near the centre of the top edge, and the > legends "2010-60", "2010-6001 C835" and "EM PC" next to that. > I KNOW that logo, but I can't for the life of me think of who it is, right now! I know we had some boards in our PDP-11 that had that logo on them. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 2 20:43:43 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 20:43:43 -0500 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify In-Reply-To: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> References: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <551DF04F.9050804@pico-systems.com> On 04/02/2015 03:58 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > While sorting through some Unibus cards I've had on a > dusty shelf for years, I came across a strange card > (picture at > https://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/17011635052/). > > It has no maker's name, but what looks like a zigzag > triple S logo near the centre of the top edge, and the > legends "2010-60", "2010-6001 C835" and "EM PC" next to that. > The more I think about it, I KEEP coming back to that being the Storage Technology logo. We might still have an old Storage Tek binder somewhere at work, I'll see if it has that logo on it. Jon From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 2 21:03:18 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 03:03:18 +0100 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify In-Reply-To: <551DF04F.9050804@pico-systems.com> References: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> <551DF04F.9050804@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <551DF4E6.7060708@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/04/2015 02:43, Jon Elson wrote: > The more I think about it, I KEEP coming back to that being the Storage > Technology logo. We might still have an old Storage Tek binder > somewhere at work, I'll see if it has that logo on it. Yes please :-) Meanwhile, do you think it's an earlier version of the logo on this page? http://www.strategicsupport.com/equipment/storagetek/l20-tape-library-repair -- Pete Pete Turnbull From useddec at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 21:55:53 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 21:55:53 -0500 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify In-Reply-To: <551DF4E6.7060708@dunnington.plus.com> References: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> <551DF04F.9050804@pico-systems.com> <551DF4E6.7060708@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: I found a hex board a few nights ago with the same marking on it, but it had a 6 fingers on it. I'll try to find it later tonight or tomorrow. Paul On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 9:03 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 03/04/2015 02:43, Jon Elson wrote: > > The more I think about it, I KEEP coming back to that being the Storage >> Technology logo. We might still have an old Storage Tek binder >> somewhere at work, I'll see if it has that logo on it. >> > > Yes please :-) Meanwhile, do you think it's an earlier version of the > logo on this page? > http://www.strategicsupport.com/equipment/storagetek/l20- > tape-library-repair > > -- > Pete > > Pete Turnbull > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 21:57:52 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 21:57:52 -0500 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify In-Reply-To: References: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> <551DF04F.9050804@pico-systems.com> <551DF4E6.7060708@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: I love companies that are so proud of their work that they don't put their name on it. On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 9:55 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I found a hex board a few nights ago with the same marking on it, but it > had a 6 fingers on it. I'll try to find it later tonight or tomorrow. > > Paul > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 9:03 PM, Pete Turnbull > wrote: > >> On 03/04/2015 02:43, Jon Elson wrote: >> >> The more I think about it, I KEEP coming back to that being the Storage >>> Technology logo. We might still have an old Storage Tek binder >>> somewhere at work, I'll see if it has that logo on it. >>> >> >> Yes please :-) Meanwhile, do you think it's an earlier version of the >> logo on this page? >> http://www.strategicsupport.com/equipment/storagetek/l20- >> tape-library-repair >> >> -- >> Pete >> >> Pete Turnbull >> > > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 22:27:48 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 22:27:48 -0500 Subject: ACT, CIT, COMPUTER CONSOLES, DATA PRODUCTS, DPD, SIMPACT, PERTEC, VERSATEC Message-ID: Here are some hex DEC compatible boards that I just found. If you wish to make an offer, please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul ACT 10103-0, 10104 ON BACK COMPUTER INTERFACE TECNOLOGY CM7819 =DZ11? COMPUTER CONSOLES 34D01533 DATA PRODUCTS 257240, 257345 SERIAL INTERFACES DPD FPPA-24132M03 PERTEC GCR/PE READ 107856-02, GCR/PR READ 107861-01AN DEC # 29-23763-00 107866-01 DEC # 29-23769-00 SIMPACT ICP-1600 VERSATEC BIPOLAR ALGORITHM PROCESSOR 382441 From useddec at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 22:30:05 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 22:30:05 -0500 Subject: keys for HP2100A/S In-Reply-To: <003301d06bfa$30527250$90f756f0$@classiccmp.org> References: <003301d06bfa$30527250$90f756f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Do you want to get rid of any of the extra DEC keys? Thanks, Paul On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Jay West wrote: > Today I mailed off a couple HP 2100A/S front panel keys (they are the round > tubular "security key" type) to a fellow listmember in need. I thought I > had > a whole box of them, but it turned out virtually all of those were DEC > keys. > So I had 3 copies of the key made today (two for the listmember, one extra > for me). When I tested them before dropping them in the mail, 2 worked and > 1 > did not (of course, I sent off the 2 that worked to the listmember). > > > > Since I have to go back to the locksmith to get the 1 key redone, I thought > I'd offer to get keys for the 2100A/S made for anyone that wants them. I > guess it is possible that your 2100A/S may use a different key, but at > least > every 2100 I've come across uses the same key. The locksmith charges $8 per > key, and figure $2 bucks for shipping. I'll probably head back to the > locksmith Monday so if anyone is in need, let me know. > > > > Please note - the keys for HP 1000 aka 21MX M/E/F are completely different > and not what I'm talking about here. Just the 2100A or 2100S. But I guess > if > anyone needs keys for those, I can get some made as well. If it's for a > 1000 > or MX key, let me know if it's a M series (dual edge key, switch has > standby > position) or E/F (single edge key, not a switch just a front door latch). > > > > Best, > > > > J > > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 2 23:18:11 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 23:18:11 -0500 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify In-Reply-To: <551DF4E6.7060708@dunnington.plus.com> References: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> <551DF04F.9050804@pico-systems.com> <551DF4E6.7060708@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <551E1483.90309@pico-systems.com> On 04/02/2015 09:03 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 03/04/2015 02:43, Jon Elson wrote: > >> The more I think about it, I KEEP coming back to that >> being the Storage >> Technology logo. We might still have an old Storage Tek >> binder >> somewhere at work, I'll see if it has that logo on it. > > Yes please :-) Meanwhile, do you think it's an earlier > version of the logo on this page? > http://www.strategicsupport.com/equipment/storagetek/l20-tape-library-repair > > No, I don't think the logo is related. Jon From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Apr 2 13:16:27 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 18:16:27 +0000 Subject: SC-40: Info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCC9E4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Cory Smelosky Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 9:00 AM > Anyone here exceptionally familiar with the SC-40? I've completed > imaging the drive (just microcode and diags, someone want to finish > reversing it for use in klh10?) and doing the inspection (actually > finished weeks ago but got busy) > Now, I have a tape drive working and attached to it via SCSI...however > now I'm lacking info on how to actually do a tape bootstrap. ;) Hey, Cory, Reaching back to 1986/1987, as we got the Stanford TOPS-20 monitor[1] running on our SC-30M, I think I remember that Mike and Stewart used the KS-10 model rather than the KL-10 model. There was an 8080A (vel sim.) in the box that provided initialization services, which ran code out of BOOTSTRAP.BIN. Try looking at the KS-10 Installation Guide for TOPS-20 (or the Monitor Installation Guide for Tops-10) for inspiration. That's about all I can tell you looking back 3 decades. Rich [1] ancestral to the Panda distribution for klh10 Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From krfkeith at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 18:56:38 2015 From: krfkeith at gmail.com (Kevin Keith) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 17:56:38 -0600 Subject: Does anyone here have any information/docs on the Tahoe aka Power 6/32 aka Harris HCX-7/9? Message-ID: I've checked Bitsavers. Computer Consoles Inc doesn't appear to have a presence there, and there's nothing in the Harris or ICL sections (two rebadgers). Anyone information you guys might have on this machine would be much appreciated. -- Thanks, Kevin From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 3 02:58:47 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 08:58:47 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> Bit of an update. I put the transistors back as they seem to be OK and applied power to see if probing around would show anything. The Z8 was getting power, and the transistors did heat up within a few seconds, but the disk did not spin at all. Is this going to be a problem with the motor itself? On a side note, I spotted a component which I can't identify, folded down above the Z8 and stuck to what looks like an adhesive pad on the PCB. The can looks a bit mottled/corroded. On another non-working RD54 it seems to be marked "12039". I am not sure what this component is, although it looks like it could be a capacitor. Anyone know what this might be? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 02 April 2015 23:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > The other day my RD54 just stopped rotating, dead in its tracks, while it was > running. I guessed one of the motor control power transistors may have failed. I > assume they are the series of 6 chunky ones attached to a single heatsink. I > have desoldered them (en-masse) and tested them with a Peak > DCA55 tester, and they all appear to be working. Does anyone have any other > suggestions? Has anyone ever repaired an RD54 control board? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob From fulivi at tiscali.it Fri Apr 3 03:30:32 2015 From: fulivi at tiscali.it (F.Ulivi) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 10:30:32 +0200 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: <551DB0CC.5090402@mich.com> References: <551DB0CC.5090402@mich.com> Message-ID: <551E4FA8.6020301@tiscali.it> Hi, I'm going to use the ASM48 assembler to write a firmware from scratch for the PIO (parallel I/O) microcontroller on the IOC board. It's a 8041A (ROM masked version) and it's labelled A72 on the schematics. By looking at the picture you took of an IOC board it's clearly a masked ROM (no UV window). Because of this I think it would be very hard to find the ROM image. AFAIK dumping it would require a microphotograph of the die and a lot of patience to recover the ROM bits.... Anyway, for the MESS emulator having a functional PIO is important because it controls (among other things) the line printer output (J6). This is the functionality I'm going to address. All the other parallel I/Os (paper puch/read and PROM programmer) are going to be "plugged" in the firmware (i.e. made to appear disconnected). Bye, -- F.Ulivi From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 07:15:28 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 07:15:28 -0500 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <551E8460.6070800@gmail.com> On 04/03/2015 02:58 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > On a side note, I spotted a component which I can't identify, folded down > above the Z8 and stuck to what looks like an adhesive pad on the PCB. The > can looks a bit mottled/corroded. On another non-working RD54 it seems to be > marked "12039". I am not sure what this component is, although it looks like > it could be a capacitor. Anyone know what this might be? It's not a thermal fuse, is it? I have absolutely zero knowledge of the RD54 - but thermal fuses are often in cylindrical metal cans and do seem prone to gaining a mottled appearance over time (although it doesn't appear to affect them electrically) cheers Jules From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 3 07:38:01 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:38:01 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <551E8460.6070800@gmail.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E8460.6070800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0bda01d06e0b$060f0e50$122d2af0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules > Richardson > Sent: 03 April 2015 13:15 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > On 04/03/2015 02:58 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > On a side note, I spotted a component which I can't identify, folded > > down above the Z8 and stuck to what looks like an adhesive pad on the > > PCB. The can looks a bit mottled/corroded. On another non-working RD54 > > it seems to be marked "12039". I am not sure what this component is, > > although it looks like it could be a capacitor. Anyone know what this might > be? > > It's not a thermal fuse, is it? I have absolutely zero knowledge of the > RD54 - but thermal fuses are often in cylindrical metal cans and do seem prone > to gaining a mottled appearance over time (although it doesn't appear to affect > them electrically) Not sure how to tell. The component number marked on the board uses the prefix "Y". So it is unlikely to be a capacitor or a resistor. I measured its resistance (in circuit) and it is almost 1K ohm, so it seems unlikely to be a fuse, unless thermal ones have a higher resistance? Regards Rob From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 3 07:55:38 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 07:55:38 -0500 Subject: Intellec MDS-2 Message-ID: <000f01d06e0d$7c2787a0$747696e0$@classiccmp.org> Dave wrote... ---- What is the symptom with the CRT? I think that was the achilles heel of the MDS. It usually was the connectors on the cable to the CRT control board. Some of the pins carry too much current and the heat made them go intermittent. The other problem that I found was on the control board inside of the CRT module. It was usually cold solder joints and a little touch up usually fixed it. ---- I'm in the midst of a classiccmp-related project with a deadline that will take many months, but eventually I'll get back to the MDS. As I recall when I pulled out the mds a few months ago, half the time on powerup there was no crt display, and when it would come up, the diagnostic firmware indicated a problem with the crt control board. Sometimes during the powerup sequence the display would work but then go blank. I also recall that maybe a year ago when I pulled it off the shelf, I could not find my diskettes for the system :( I know they were in the basement, but I looked for a couple days and could not find it. I'd gladly pay something reasonable for some 8" floppies with ISIS2, ASM, PLM, etc. J From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Apr 3 08:17:44 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 15:17:44 +0200 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-03 09:58, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Bit of an update. I put the transistors back as they seem to be OK and > applied power to see if probing around would show anything. The Z8 was > getting power, and the transistors did heat up within a few seconds, but the > disk did not spin at all. Is this going to be a problem with the motor > itself? Brushes of the motor (if they have them) would be one thing to check. Check if the motor is getting power? Johnny > > On a side note, I spotted a component which I can't identify, folded down > above the Z8 and stuck to what looks like an adhesive pad on the PCB. The > can looks a bit mottled/corroded. On another non-working RD54 it seems to be > marked "12039". I am not sure what this component is, although it looks like > it could be a capacitor. Anyone know what this might be? > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert >> Jarratt >> Sent: 02 April 2015 23:19 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning >> >> The other day my RD54 just stopped rotating, dead in its tracks, while it > was >> running. I guessed one of the motor control power transistors may have > failed. I >> assume they are the series of 6 chunky ones attached to a single heatsink. > I >> have desoldered them (en-masse) and tested them with a Peak >> DCA55 tester, and they all appear to be working. Does anyone have any > other >> suggestions? Has anyone ever repaired an RD54 control board? >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> Rob > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Apr 3 08:23:56 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 15:23:56 +0200 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify In-Reply-To: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> References: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <551E946C.3090608@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-02 22:58, Pete Turnbull wrote: > While sorting through some Unibus cards I've had on a dusty shelf for > years, I came across a strange card (picture at > https://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/17011635052/). > > It has no maker's name, but what looks like a zigzag triple S logo near > the centre of the top edge, and the legends "2010-60", "2010-6001 C835" > and "EM PC" next to that. The logo is System Industries. They mostly made DEC-compatible disk controllers for other disks, so I'd suspect something along that line, but I don't know exactly which one this would be. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Apr 3 08:39:05 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 15:39:05 +0200 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <8C4C6FAC-A1BC-456F-A91E-0EBD3A0ED64A@comcast.net> References: <20150401185545.B04BF18C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8C4C6FAC-A1BC-456F-A91E-0EBD3A0ED64A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <551E97F9.90508@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-01 21:04, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 1, 2015, at 2:55 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> From: Paul Koning >> >>> The general rule of device drivers is to assume that the hardware is >>> misbehaving, and double check everything. >> >> Right, but it needs to _actively log_ when it has to fix something, otherwise >> you wind up in the situation of the semi-famous old Multics problem where >> (IIRC) the system was running slower and slower... > > Certainly. And, for example, RSTS/E contains an error logging daemon for that reason. (Well, RSTS doesn?t call background programs daemons, but that?s what they amount to.) Yeah. Same in all DEC OSes, one way or another. Of course you have some proper error logging. Otherwise systems will be very hard to diagnose when you start getting problems. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 02:13:39 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 20:13:39 +1300 Subject: SC-40: Info? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCC9E4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCC9E4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 7:16 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > [1] ancestral to the Panda distribution for klh10 That reminds me, I'm discussing Panda with a couple of other people off-list. When Mark passed away, I seem to recall there were some further mods/developments to the Panda codebase that were substantially complete but had not been released. I further recall it being said that at least some of these mods had been tided up and finished, and a refreshed Panda release prepared. Can you or anyone else shed some light on that, or correct my recollection if faulty? Does anything more recent than the June 2006 snapshot exist? Is it available anywhere? Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ian at platinum.net Fri Apr 3 10:45:39 2015 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 08:45:39 -0700 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0bda01d06e0b$060f0e50$122d2af0$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E8460.6070800@gmail.com> <0bda01d06e0b$060f0e50$122d2af0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 3, 2015, at 5:38 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Not sure how to tell. The component number marked on the board uses the > prefix "Y". So it is unlikely to be a capacitor or a resistor. I measured > its resistance (in circuit) and it is almost 1K ohm, so it seems unlikely to > be a fuse, unless thermal ones have a higher resistance? Components marked with Y are usually crystals. Ian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 3 10:42:53 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 16:42:53 +0100 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify In-Reply-To: <551E946C.3090608@update.uu.se> References: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> <551E946C.3090608@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <551EB4FD.4040509@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/04/2015 14:23, Johnny Billquist wrote: > The logo is System Industries. > They mostly made DEC-compatible disk controllers for other disks, so I'd > suspect something along that line, but I don't know exactly which one > this would be. That's a good start, though. Thanks! -- Pete Pete Turnbull From Tim at Rikers.org Fri Apr 3 11:07:03 2015 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 10:07:03 -0600 Subject: keys for HP2100A/S In-Reply-To: <000601d06da7$45b4b0a0$d11e11e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <003301d06bfa$30527250$90f756f0$@classiccmp.org> <551DDBE3.3070907@Rikers.org> <000601d06da7$45b4b0a0$d11e11e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <551EBAA7.6060308@Rikers.org> On 04/02/2015 06:43 PM, Jay West wrote: > I'll add you to the 2100A/S key list. Will probably get them done Monday. great, thx! > Looked at your pics... notice you have the comparatively hard to find "jumper board" for the WCS option. Good score. Yes! I've not started restoring this unit, but I'm glad to have the WCS. There's not much memory there if I recall. > As to the plastic light buttons, not a chance :) I have a handful or two of spares, but will need them for two 2100's that haven't been restored yet - and they are a high wear/stress part and will always break over time - and I doubt they will be found in the wild anymore... sounds like a project for a 3d printer. Definitely would have to print an entire set, I'm sure it would look very different brightness/color wise. > > Ok, now that?s two potential needs for a 3d printer... the hp-85A capstan, now the hp 2100 front panel light covers.... one more project in need of a 3d printer here and that increments the level from "want/funToy" to "order one". > > A thought - your missing cap is the B register select. Kind of an important one. Swap it with Fetch, Ind, or Execute - unless you're doing slightly less than common stuff those aren't important. At least, not as important as being able to select the B register :) I think I already swapped the missing button. Just have not updated the pictures. :) I don't have the top cover for the unit either in case you have one of those sitting around. :) From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 3 11:15:41 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 11:15:41 -0500 Subject: keys for HP2100A/S In-Reply-To: <551EBAA7.6060308@Rikers.org> References: <003301d06bfa$30527250$90f756f0$@classiccmp.org> <551DDBE3.3070907@Rikers.org> <000601d06da7$45b4b0a0$d11e11e0$@classiccmp.org> <551EBAA7.6060308@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <000301d06e29$6ee96b50$4cbc41f0$@classiccmp.org> Tim wrote... ---- Yes! I've not started restoring this unit, but I'm glad to have the WCS. There's not much memory there if I recall. ---- I think the pictures indicated 8K, but it's been eons since I popped the top of a 2100 and looked at the memory control section. ---- I don't have the top cover for the unit either in case you have one of those sitting around. :) ---- Definitely not :( J From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 3 11:26:24 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 11:26:24 -0500 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> On 04/03/2015 08:17 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-04-03 09:58, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> Bit of an update. I put the transistors back as they seem >> to be OK and >> applied power to see if probing around would show >> anything. The Z8 was >> getting power, and the transistors did heat up within a >> few seconds, but the >> disk did not spin at all. Is this going to be a problem >> with the motor >> itself? > > Brushes of the motor (if they have them) would be one > thing to check. > Check if the motor is getting power? > If six transistors, then it is brushless (I'm sure that is true). But, you should check the Hall sensors. Likely one may have failed. There should be 3 sensors in the motor, at any time they should be in a state where one is high and two low, or two high and one low. So, turn the spindle while checking the 3 sensor signals, all should cycle. If the sensors are OK, then the logic going from the sensors through to driving the power transistors is not working. make sure the crystal oscillator is running, that regulates the motor speed controller. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 3 11:27:16 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 11:27:16 -0500 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify In-Reply-To: <551E946C.3090608@update.uu.se> References: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> <551E946C.3090608@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <551EBF64.30100@pico-systems.com> On 04/03/2015 08:23 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-04-02 22:58, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> While sorting through some Unibus cards I've had on a >> dusty shelf for >> years, I came across a strange card (picture at >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/17011635052/). >> >> It has no maker's name, but what looks like a zigzag >> triple S logo near >> the centre of the top edge, and the legends "2010-60", >> "2010-6001 C835" >> and "EM PC" next to that. > > The logo is System Industries. THANK YOU! Yes, that must be it, we used a number of their boards a long time ago on PDP-11 and VAX systems. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 3 12:06:22 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 18:06:22 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 03 April 2015 17:26 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > On 04/03/2015 08:17 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-04-03 09:58, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> Bit of an update. I put the transistors back as they seem to be OK > >> and applied power to see if probing around would show anything. The > >> Z8 was getting power, and the transistors did heat up within a few > >> seconds, but the disk did not spin at all. Is this going to be a > >> problem with the motor itself? > > > > Brushes of the motor (if they have them) would be one thing to check. > > Check if the motor is getting power? > > > If six transistors, then it is brushless (I'm sure that is true). But, you should > check the Hall sensors. > Likely one may have failed. There should be 3 sensors in the motor, at any > time they should be in a state where one is high and two low, or two high and > one low. So, turn the spindle while checking the 3 sensor signals, all should > cycle. > If the sensors are OK, then the logic going from the sensors through to driving > the power transistors is not working. > make sure the crystal oscillator is running, that regulates the motor speed > controller. > Yes, it is 6 transistors. All this sounds like I am going to have to open up the disk to get inside as the motor is on the inside. I don't think there is a way to turn the spindle without opening it. Interestingly at one point it started working again. Then after I put it all back together again, it stopped working once more. In one case, it seemed to start spinning when I changed the disk's orientation (on its side rather than flat), almost as if it just needed a mechanical encouragement to get it moving. But now, no matter how many times I try, and what different orientations I try, it doesn't work. Does any of that help with pointing the finger at all? Regards Rob From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 3 12:41:56 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 12:41:56 -0500 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <551ED0E4.7020901@pico-systems.com> On 04/03/2015 12:06 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Yes, it is 6 transistors. All this sounds like I am going > to have to open up the disk to get inside as the motor is > on the inside. I don't think there is a way to turn the > spindle without opening it. Some of the older disks in this vintage had the motor outside the HDA, and there was a little fan on the end of the motor that cooled the heat sinks, etc. You could see it by folding the PC board away from the bottom of the drive. I thought the RD54 was from that family, but I might be remembering an older drive (RD53??) > Interestingly at one point it started working again. Then > after I put it all back together again, it stopped working > once more. In one case, it seemed to start spinning when I > changed the disk's orientation (on its side rather than > flat), almost as if it just needed a mechanical > encouragement to get it moving. But now, no matter how > many times I try, and what different orientations I try, > it doesn't work. Does any of that help with pointing the > finger at all? Regards Rob Well, I'd try wiggling connectors some more and see if you can get it to spin up again. Sticky motor bearings and stuck heads are common on older drives. They put a landing lube on the park areas of some drives, and that eventually glued the heads to the disk, requiring more torque that the spindle drive was allowed to provide. But, your drive spun down while running, which is not connected to that scenario. Jon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 3 12:44:11 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:44:11 +0000 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I am going to try to answer several points together. The mystery component sounds like a crystal or ceramic resonator. Does it connect directly to the Z8, if so, to what pins? 1k is a very low DC resistance for such a component, though (was this tested out-of-circuit)? The RD54 is a Maxtor XT1140 or something similar. The spindle motor is a 3 phase electronically-commutated thing (no brushes -- does _any_ small hard disk have brushes in the spindle motor [1]). It is entirely within the HDA, there must be some hall effect sensors that are part of it (inside the HDA too) for position feedback. Alas I have never seen a schematic for this drive (it's not on bitsavers that I can find) so I don't know many details. Assuming the power transistors are good, then the most likely fault is a failed hall effect sensor, inside the HDA. If we could find a pinout of the motor cable, or a schematic for the drive, it would be possible to see what is going on there. [1] Some larger hard drives, the Diablo 30 springs to mind, had brush-type DC permanent magnet spindle motors (and in the case of the Diablo 30, positioner motors, but that is another saga). Many full-height 5.25" floppy drives have permananet magnet brush-type spindle motors (belt driven to the actual spindle. But I have never seen an 8" or 5.25" winchester drive that does. > Interestingly at one point it started working again. Then after I put it all back together again, it stopped working > once more. In one case, it seemed to start spinning when I changed the disk's orientation (on its side rather > than flat), almost as if it just needed a mechanical encouragement to get it moving. But now, no matter how > many times I try, and what different orientations I try, it doesn't work. Does any of that help with pointing the > finger at all? Maybe if one hall sensor or drive to one of the motor phases has failed then turning the drive moved the spindle just enough to get another motor phase energised and it started running (possibly not on all 3 phases properly), -tony From ehogan at unimetrix.com Fri Apr 3 12:52:21 2015 From: ehogan at unimetrix.com (e hogan) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 10:52:21 -0700 Subject: Pertec OEM Sperry 1900/10 System Message-ID: We have the subject system in our New Jersey facility if anyone is interested. Early 1980's manufacture. From technobug at prelim.org Fri Apr 3 12:57:41 2015 From: technobug at prelim.org (Technobug) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 11:57:41 -0600 Subject: Miscellaneous Freebies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A while back I offered an 11/780 logo which was claimed. However, in the mean time my mail system got cleaned and the address of the claimant when into the ether. If the person who responded will send me their address I will get it in the mail post-haste. ->CRC From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Apr 3 14:43:08 2015 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 19:43:08 +0000 Subject: hpdrive hpib Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05737CBB6D@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Does anyone have experience with the hpdrive project? I'm wondering if the following card might work with it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-82350A-E2078A-PCI-GPIB-Interface-Card-/351361191725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51cec24f2d I'm not sure what chipset it uses, and I can't find info from the project page on whether the hp card will work. thanks. -Bob From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Apr 3 14:57:02 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 15:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: hpdrive hpib In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05737CBB6D@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05737CBB6D@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Apr 2015, Bob Brown wrote: > Does anyone have experience with the hpdrive project? Yes. I set up a HP 2109E to run RTE-6/VM from an HPDrive pretending to be a 7925H. > I'm wondering if the following card might work with it: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-82350A-E2078A-PCI-GPIB-Interface-Card-/351361191725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51cec24f2d > > I'm not sure what chipset it uses, and I can't find info from the project page on whether the hp card will work. I don't know about that board. I can recommend this one: Epay #171576801860 National Instruments PCI-GPIB PCI Card IEEE 488.2 You can typically find used boards for between $99 and $129. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 3 15:04:43 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 15:04:43 -0500 Subject: hpdrive hpib In-Reply-To: References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05737CBB6D@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <000501d06e49$6d91bd00$48b53700$@classiccmp.org> So any interest in a REAL 7925? Real $$ though, tested & working.... J From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 3 15:14:30 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 21:14:30 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0bf701d06e4a$cb522d20$61f68760$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 03 April 2015 18:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > I am going to try to answer several points together. > > The mystery component sounds like a crystal or ceramic resonator. Does it > connect directly to the Z8, if so, to what pins? 1k is a very low DC resistance for > such a component, though (was this tested out-of-circuit)? No, it was tested in circuit. It is rather hard to tell what it is connected to actually, the traces are not clear as there seem to be a couple of layers, and probing with a DMM appears to show it not connected to anything on the Z8. > > The RD54 is a Maxtor XT1140 or something similar. The spindle motor is a 3 > phase electronically-commutated thing (no brushes -- does _any_ small hard > disk have brushes in the spindle motor [1]). It is entirely within the HDA, there > must be some hall effect sensors that are part of it (inside the HDA too) for > position feedback. > Alas I have never seen a schematic for this drive (it's not on bitsavers that I can > find) so I don't know many details. > > Assuming the power transistors are good, then the most likely fault is a failed > hall effect sensor, inside the HDA. > If we could find a pinout of the motor cable, or a schematic for the drive, it > would be possible to see what is going on there. There is a partial printset on bitsavers, but sadly it seems to be missing the real meat. (http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf//dec/disc/MP02291_ RD54_sch_Jun87.pdf). > > > [1] Some larger hard drives, the Diablo 30 springs to mind, had brush-type DC > permanent magnet spindle > motors (and in the case of the Diablo 30, positioner motors, but that is another > saga). Many full-height > 5.25" floppy drives have permananet magnet brush-type spindle motors (belt > driven to the actual spindle. > But I have never seen an 8" or 5.25" winchester drive that does. > > > > Interestingly at one point it started working again. Then after I put it all back > together again, it stopped working > > once more. In one case, it seemed to start spinning when I changed the disk's > orientation (on its side rather > > than flat), almost as if it just needed a mechanical encouragement to get it > moving. But now, no matter how > > many times I try, and what different orientations I try, it doesn't work. Does > any of that help with pointing the > > finger at all? > > Maybe if one hall sensor or drive to one of the motor phases has failed then > turning the drive moved the spindle > just enough to get another motor phase energised and it started running > (possibly not on all 3 phases properly), > That is consistent with what happened. It looks like I would need to open up the drive. Of course I don't have access to a clean room. Does anyone have any advice or suggestions on how to make a "clean*er*" room in an ordinary home? Regards Rob From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 15:16:01 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 15:16:01 -0500 Subject: hpdrive hpib In-Reply-To: References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05737CBB6D@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > I don't know about that board. I can recommend this one: > > Epay #171576801860 Is that one known for sure to work? I had read somewhere that most PCI cards did not. I have an ISA card or two that ought to work but have not tried yet (yeah yeah/inertia/laziness/etc.) USB would be a dream. -j From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Apr 3 15:23:41 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 16:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: hpdrive hpib In-Reply-To: References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05737CBB6D@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Apr 2015, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> I don't know about that board. I can recommend this one: >> >> Epay #171576801860 > > Is that one known for sure to work? I had read somewhere that most > PCI cards did not. That's the one I used. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 3 08:56:30 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 06:56:30 -0700 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify In-Reply-To: <551DED2E.9060002@pico-systems.com> References: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> <551DED2E.9060002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <551E9C0E.1080502@bitsavers.org> On 4/2/15 6:30 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > zigzag triple S logo Systems Industries From kelly at catcorner.org Fri Apr 3 10:50:47 2015 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 15:50:47 +0000 Subject: Tandy 6000/6000HD service manual has been scanned Message-ID: Does anyone want a copy? It includes the Tandon TM-848-1E, TM848-2E operating and service manual and the Tandon TM501, TM502, TM503 OEM service manual. Al, would you like a copy for bitsavers? If so, how to upload? It is about 34 megabytes and 416 pages long. It is already in PDF format. That's what my scanner produces. Thanks, Kelly From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 3 10:43:05 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 16:43:05 +0100 Subject: yet another object (Unibus card?) to identify In-Reply-To: <551E9C0E.1080502@bitsavers.org> References: <551DAD8D.1050401@dunnington.plus.com> <551DED2E.9060002@pico-systems.com> <551E9C0E.1080502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <551EB509.3090408@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/04/2015 14:56, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/2/15 6:30 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> zigzag triple S logo > > Systems Industries Thanks! -- Pete Pete Turnbull From dmabry at mich.com Fri Apr 3 16:34:03 2015 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 17:34:03 -0400 Subject: Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: <000f01d06e0d$7c2787a0$747696e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000f01d06e0d$7c2787a0$747696e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <551F074B.2000409@mich.com> Jay West wrote on 4/3/2015 8:55 AM: > Dave wrote... > ---- > What is the symptom with the CRT? I think that was the achilles heel of the MDS. It usually was the connectors on the cable to the CRT control board. Some of the pins carry too much current and the heat made them go intermittent. The other problem that I found was on the control board inside of the CRT module. It was usually cold solder joints and a little touch up usually fixed it. > ---- > I'm in the midst of a classiccmp-related project with a deadline that will take many months, but eventually I'll get back to the MDS. > > As I recall when I pulled out the mds a few months ago, half the time on powerup there was no crt display, and when it would come up, the diagnostic firmware indicated a problem with the crt control board. Sometimes during the powerup sequence the display would work but then go blank. The diagnostic tests functionality of the crt section of the IOC board, IIRC. My earlier comments about the achilles heel being the crt board in the monitor module wouldn't apply to that. There is no diagnostic built in that tests the board I was referring to. The symptom of the display going blank after coming up, seemingly correctly, would point to that analog driver board in the monitor module. Perhaps you have more than one issue. > > I also recall that maybe a year ago when I pulled it off the shelf, I could not find my diskettes for the system :( I know they were in the basement, but I looked for a couple days and could not find it. I'd gladly pay something reasonable for some 8" floppies with ISIS2, ASM, PLM, etc. > > J > Shoot me your mailing address privately and I'll make you some disks. You need to tell me what density you need, single or double. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 3 12:12:36 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:12:36 -0400 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 3, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > ... > Interestingly at one point it started working again. Then after I put it all back together again, it stopped working once more. In one case, it seemed to start spinning when I changed the disk's orientation (on its side rather than flat), almost as if it just needed a mechanical encouragement to get it moving. But now, no matter how many times I try, and what different orientations I try, it doesn't work. Does any of that help with pointing the finger at all? I hate to suggest this, but... head stuck to the platter? (I don?t know if drives like this can do that. I do remember an RF11 that stopped spinning because a head crashed, melted, and glued itself to the platter solid enough to stop the spindle motor.) paul From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 3 20:51:53 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 18:51:53 -0700 Subject: Convergent Miniframe Hardware Reference Message-ID: <551F43B9.2020300@bitsavers.org> A copy of the Miniframe hardware reference showed up with some other paper yesterday. It's scanned now and up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/convergent/68K/miniframe From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 22:00:54 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 21:00:54 -0600 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 11:44 AM, tony duell wrote: > The RD54 is a Maxtor XT1140 or something similar. The RD54 is a Maxtor XT2190, which, as you say, is quite similar to the XT1140. Both have 15 data heads (eight platters), but the XT2190 has a higher cylinder count (1224 vs 918), reportedly at least in part due to use of a better head design. Maxtor pioneered the use of the drive motor integrated in the spindle, which is what allowed them to fit eight platters into a 5 1/4" drive in 1983, when other vendors were limited to four platters. From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 22:40:49 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 20:40:49 -0700 Subject: Further Tektronix 4014 debugging... Message-ID: <551F5D41.2030500@gmail.com> So I may have been a bit premature in my declaration earlier this week that letting the 4014 warm up for a few minutes solves the storage problems. For the time being, I have it hooked up to a Linux box (so I can 'cat' various files at it and stare in awe as it draws random things) and it seems to be performing flawlessly; everything works (including the discrete plot extensions). But I've noticed that over time as I clear the screen that garbage starts accruing around the edges of the screen -- only the middle gets properly erased. At first power-on, the area that gets cleared is a circle maybe 10" in diameter; this increases slowly over time and if I let it run for 15-20 minutes *most* of the screen gets cleared but there's always a bit on the edges that remains. I went through the portions of the alignment procedure outlined in the service manual related to storage, and all voltages were within a percentage point or two even after all these years, so not much required adjustment. There are two adjustments for the Collimation that control the size and shape of the flood that erases the screen; the service manual suggests adjusting these until the flood covers the screen. Adjusting the pots all the way counter-clockwise causes the flood to get *slightly* larger and cover more of the screen, but it's still not enough. From reading the circuit description for the erase circuits (starting on page 5-82 of the service manual), I note that the duration of the flood (as controlled by the Collimation circuits) is controlled by an RC network and I suppose it's possible that one or more of the capacitors is out of spec -- but I don't know if the length of the flood has anything at all to do with the area it covers -- can anyone shed some light on this? I suppose it's more likely that the tube's just showing its age. I suppose I should be happy it works as well as it does. At any rate, if anyone has any insight here, I'd love to learn more... - Josh From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 22:57:05 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 21:57:05 -0600 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: <551E4FA8.6020301@tiscali.it> References: <551DB0CC.5090402@mich.com> <551E4FA8.6020301@tiscali.it> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 2:30 AM, F.Ulivi wrote: > I'm going to use the ASM48 assembler to write a firmware from scratch > for the PIO (parallel I/O) microcontroller on the IOC board. It's a > 8041A (ROM masked version) and it's labelled A72 on the schematics. > By looking at the picture you took of an IOC board it's clearly a masked > ROM (no UV window). Because of this I think it would be very hard to > find the ROM image. AFAIK dumping it would require a microphotograph of > the die and a lot of patience to recover the ROM bits.... I'm 99% certain that the 8041 and 8041A masked ROMs can be read with essentially the same verification mode as the 8048 and 8048A, respectively. If I recall correctly, for the 8048, ROM verification mode works just like verification of the EPROM of an 8748, but with 12V on the PROG pin rather than 25V. The A-suffix parts have different programming/verification requirements than the non-A parts, so be careful. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 4 00:40:46 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 06:40:46 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0bfb01d06e99$e67c45a0$b374d0e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning > Sent: 03 April 2015 18:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > > > On Apr 3, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > > ... > > Interestingly at one point it started working again. Then after I put it all back > together again, it stopped working once more. In one case, it seemed to start > spinning when I changed the disk's orientation (on its side rather than flat), > almost as if it just needed a mechanical encouragement to get it moving. But > now, no matter how many times I try, and what different orientations I try, it > doesn't work. Does any of that help with pointing the finger at all? > > I hate to suggest this, but... head stuck to the platter? > > (I don?t know if drives like this can do that. I do remember an RF11 that > stopped spinning because a head crashed, melted, and glued itself to the > platter solid enough to stop the spindle motor.) That would not appear consistent with the fact that the disk did spin again (briefly). The hall effect sensors seem to be the most promising thing to check right now. Just reluctant to open up the disk at home. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 4 00:41:45 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 06:41:45 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0bfc01d06e9a$096ef530$1c4cdf90$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: 04 April 2015 04:01 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 11:44 AM, tony duell > wrote: > > The RD54 is a Maxtor XT1140 or something similar. > > The RD54 is a Maxtor XT2190, which, as you say, is quite similar to the XT1140. > Both have 15 data heads (eight platters), but the XT2190 has a higher cylinder > count (1224 vs 918), reportedly at least in part due to use of a better head > design. > > Maxtor pioneered the use of the drive motor integrated in the spindle, which is > what allowed them to fit eight platters into a 5 1/4" drive in 1983, when other > vendors were limited to four platters. Hmm... does that mean it might be difficult to reach/see/replace the hall effect sensors? Regards Rob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Apr 4 01:01:38 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 23:01:38 -0700 Subject: Further Tektronix 4014 debugging... In-Reply-To: <551F5D41.2030500@gmail.com> References: <551F5D41.2030500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <551F7E42.2020805@sbcglobal.net> On 4/3/2015 8:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > So I may have been a bit premature in my declaration earlier this week > that letting the 4014 warm up for a few minutes solves the storage > problems. > > For the time being, I have it hooked up to a Linux box (so I can 'cat' > various files at it and stare in awe as it draws random things) and it > seems to be performing flawlessly; everything works (including the > discrete plot extensions). But I've noticed that over time as I clear > the screen that garbage starts accruing around the edges of the screen > -- only the middle gets properly erased. > > At first power-on, the area that gets cleared is a circle maybe 10" in > diameter; this increases slowly over time and if I let it run for > 15-20 minutes *most* of the screen gets cleared but there's always a > bit on the edges that remains. > > I went through the portions of the alignment procedure outlined in the > service manual related to storage, and all voltages were within a > percentage point or two even after all these years, so not much > required adjustment. > > There are two adjustments for the Collimation that control the size > and shape of the flood that erases the screen; the service manual > suggests adjusting these until the flood covers the screen. Adjusting > the pots all the way counter-clockwise causes the flood to get > *slightly* larger and cover more of the screen, but it's still not > enough. > > From reading the circuit description for the erase circuits (starting > on page 5-82 of the service manual), I note that the duration of the > flood (as controlled by the Collimation circuits) is controlled by an > RC network and I suppose it's possible that one or more of the > capacitors is out of spec -- but I don't know if the length of the > flood has anything at all to do with the area it covers -- can anyone > shed some light on this? > > I suppose it's more likely that the tube's just showing its age. I > suppose I should be happy it works as well as it does. > > At any rate, if anyone has any insight here, I'd love to learn more... > > - Josh > The fade positive effect is controlled by the OP LEVEL control. I had to adjust that to get many of my terminals to fully erase and stay that way. It's touchy. Also, it seems dependent on the room temperature the terminal is operated in. Bob -- Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. I've been practising it for years. -Prince Philip From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 00:00:51 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 18:00:51 +1300 Subject: 3278 tidbit Message-ID: Having a poke around Wikipedia, I found the following interesting detail in the 3278 entry: "3278 terminals continued to be manufactured in Hortolandia, near Campinas, Brazil as far as late 1980s, having its internals redesigned by a local engineering team using modern CMOS technology, while retaining its external look and feel." That sounds right up my street. Anyone know any more? Ever seen one? http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Apr 4 03:59:31 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 10:59:31 +0200 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0bfc01d06e9a$096ef530$1c4cdf90$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> <0bfc01d06e9a$096ef530$1c4cdf90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20150404085931.GC11812@beast.freibergnet.de> Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > > Sent: 04 April 2015 04:01 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 11:44 AM, tony duell > > wrote: > > > The RD54 is a Maxtor XT1140 or something similar. > > > > The RD54 is a Maxtor XT2190, which, as you say, is quite similar to the XT1140. > > Both have 15 data heads (eight platters), but the XT2190 has a higher cylinder > > count (1224 vs 918), reportedly at least in part due to use of a better head > > design. > > > > Maxtor pioneered the use of the drive motor integrated in the spindle, which is > > what allowed them to fit eight platters into a 5 1/4" drive in 1983, when other > > vendors were limited to four platters. > > Hmm... does that mean it might be difficult to reach/see/replace the hall effect sensors? > > Regards > > Rob Difficult? Hmm.. I would say they are some of the last things you see if you dismount the entire drive including the stack of platters. This is not the way to repair the drive. Try to find out if the Motor Coils are ok and connect a scope to the phases to see what's going on after power up. I've repaired several old disks with different failures and opended them at home, but this isn't really what you want and you should avoid doning this if possible. Some people say doing this in the kitchen a boiling put of water nearby is the best you can do to avoid dust .. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 4 04:55:23 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 10:55:23 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <20150404085931.GC11812@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> <0bfc01d06e9a$096ef530$1c4cdf90$@ntlworld.com> <20150404085931.GC11812@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <0c0601d06ebd$784d71c0$68e85540$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe > Sent: 04 April 2015 10:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > > Eric Smith > > > Sent: 04 April 2015 04:01 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 11:44 AM, tony duell > > > > > > wrote: > > > > The RD54 is a Maxtor XT1140 or something similar. > > > > > > The RD54 is a Maxtor XT2190, which, as you say, is quite similar to the > XT1140. > > > Both have 15 data heads (eight platters), but the XT2190 has a > > > higher cylinder count (1224 vs 918), reportedly at least in part due > > > to use of a better head design. > > > > > > Maxtor pioneered the use of the drive motor integrated in the > > > spindle, which is what allowed them to fit eight platters into a 5 > > > 1/4" drive in 1983, when other vendors were limited to four platters. > > > > Hmm... does that mean it might be difficult to reach/see/replace the hall > effect sensors? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > Difficult? Hmm.. I would say they are some of the last things you see if you > dismount the entire drive including the stack of platters. This is what is worrying me. I suspect this would be a very difficult repair. I have enough bad RD54s that I suppose I could sacrifice one to work out how to do it (if at all!). > > This is not the way to repair the drive. > Try to find out if the Motor Coils are ok and connect a scope to the phases to > see what's going on after power up. Is there a good resource on the theory so I can work out how it all works and what to expect when I use a scope? Wikipedia has some stuff, but it is all a bit theoretical. > I've repaired several old disks with different failures and opended them at > home, but this isn't really what you want and you should avoid doning this if > possible. Some people say doing this in the kitchen a boiling put of water > nearby is the best you can do to avoid dust .. Nice idea, one to try! Thanks Rob From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Apr 4 06:45:39 2015 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 13:45:39 +0200 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: <551CAA03.3010103@gmail.com> References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> <20150331060547.GB15638@Update.UU.SE> <551B45C1.9040901@gmail.com> <551CAA03.3010103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <551FCEE3.7020903@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 02.04.15 um 04:31 schrieb Jules Richardson: > :-) I think one of the SGI's did have green on it - I wonder if it > wasn't one of the early IRIS systems, though. My Octane is quite green... > But I think SGI would > work with people and create custom colors for the MIPS-era machines if > they wanted, no doubt for a hefty price. I have grey skins for a Indigo. It has "Siemens" printed on it. Was some OEM thing for some CAD stuff. Similar: We had some Indigos in indogo color but with "CDC Cyber 910" (yes, CDC as Controll Data Corp.) printing at the Unix-AG. -- tsch??, Jochen From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 4 11:29:19 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 11:29:19 -0500 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0bfc01d06e9a$096ef530$1c4cdf90$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> <0bfc01d06e9a$096ef530$1c4cdf90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5520115F.5080808@pico-systems.com> On 04/04/2015 12:41 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> > Hmm... does that mean it might be difficult to reach/see/replace the hall effect sensors? > > On the older drives with external motors, the Hall sensors would usually be on a ring-shaped PC board against the drive housing. So, you'd have the pull the external magnet assembly off the motor, change the sensor and reassemble. A very difficult job, but technically feasible at least on some drives. If the motor is entirely internal, it is unlikely you can do this. You would have to safely back the heads off the platters, then remove the clamp and remove all the platters and spacers off the motor. Then, you'd have to press the platter hub/motor magnet assembly off the shaft, replace the sensor and get it all back together again, and get all the platters back correctly. The CIA might be willing to do this to recover Osama bin Laden's files, but seems WAY out of the realm for doing it at home. I've disassembled a number of hard drives over the years, so i know a bit about how the motors are constructed. Jon From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 16:19:12 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 14:19:12 -0700 Subject: hpdrive hpib In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6541377B19B24DA69D2AC54E1278DB01@workshop> Bob Brown wrote: >Does anyone have experience with the hpdrive project? I do. I use a small board NI PCI card. Like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/National-Instruments-High-Performance-GPIB-interface -for-PCI-Model-PCI-GPIB-/221231586346?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33826e1 c2a Works wonders. >I'm wondering if the following card might work with it: >http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-82350A-E2078A-PCI-GPIB-Interface-Card->/ 351361191725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51cec24f2d It won't. As you can see in the picture, it's based off the TI9914 which is specifically excluded from the compatibility list. Search National Instrument PCI-GPIB on eBay and there is a ton of these. The older large ones are less expensive than the newer small ones. Jay West wrote: > I had read somewhere that most PCI cards did not [work]. They do. But you need an National Instrument card based off the chipsets that Ansgar lists, because he wrote his driver for the NI chipset series. I use the relatively recent (vintage 2002) small form factor NI GPIB PCI card. Although he doesn't have it listed as tested, it is based off the TNT5004 chipset and works without any problems with his driver. From seefriek at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 22:17:23 2015 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 23:17:23 -0400 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options Message-ID: From: Jochen Kunz > Similar: We had some Indigos in indogo color but with "CDC Cyber 910" > (yes, CDC as Controll Data Corp.) printing at the Unix-AG. Ha! Memories. I have a recycler friend who called me up one day having a line on a st00pid number of "CDC computers" for dirt. He thought maybe he could make a few dollars on machines from the Center for Disease Control. I took a look and realized they were rebadged SGIs from Control Data, workstations and servers. I hooked him up with some folks into that sort of kink and he sold each one for about 15 times what he paid for them. I bought a car and a really nice grill with what he kicked back to me for the intel and the hookup. Good times. From scaron at umich.edu Sat Apr 4 10:22:53 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 11:22:53 -0400 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: <551FCEE3.7020903@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> <20150331060547.GB15638@Update.UU.SE> <551B45C1.9040901@gmail.com> <551CAA03.3010103@gmail.com> <551FCEE3.7020903@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Yep, Control Data rebadged several SGI machines; I've seen (pictures of) Indys with CDC stickers on them, and I personally have at least one or two Indigo machines rebadged as "Control Data Cyber 910" as you say; the color is the same as the stock Indigo but the silk-screen on the front, and the manufacturer label on the rear, instead says "Control Data". My entire stock of Indigo (and older) SGI serial keyboards is branded Control Data as well! They may also have done this rebadging to some PI/Power Series machines and Indigo2s... I think sgistuff.info has some photos of a CDC-rebaged Personal Iris. We probably don't get the Siemens ones over here in the US; as far as I know... Anyone stateside got one? Best, Sean On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Am 02.04.15 um 04:31 schrieb Jules Richardson: > > :-) I think one of the SGI's did have green on it - I wonder if it > > wasn't one of the early IRIS systems, though. > My Octane is quite green... > > > But I think SGI would > > work with people and create custom colors for the MIPS-era machines if > > they wanted, no doubt for a hefty price. > I have grey skins for a Indigo. It has "Siemens" printed on it. Was some > OEM thing for some CAD stuff. Similar: We had some Indigos in indogo > color but with "CDC Cyber 910" (yes, CDC as Controll Data Corp.) > printing at the Unix-AG. > -- > > tsch??, > Jochen > > From ad at ardiehl.de Sat Apr 4 13:38:09 2015 From: ad at ardiehl.de (Armin Diehl) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 20:38:09 +0200 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> here the schematics of the XT 1140 from a basic four manual http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/download/mai2000/Maxtor_XT-1140_Schematics.pdf On 04/03/2015 07:44 PM, tony duell wrote: > I am going to try to answer several points together. > > The mystery component sounds like a crystal or ceramic resonator. Does it connect directly to the Z8, if > so, to what pins? 1k is a very low DC resistance for such a component, though (was this tested out-of-circuit)? > > The RD54 is a Maxtor XT1140 or something similar. The spindle motor is a 3 phase electronically-commutated > thing (no brushes -- does _any_ small hard disk have brushes in the spindle motor [1]). It is entirely within the > HDA, there must be some hall effect sensors that are part of it (inside the HDA too) for position feedback. > Alas I have never seen a schematic for this drive (it's not on bitsavers that I can find) so I don't know many > details. > > Assuming the power transistors are good, then the most likely fault is a failed hall effect sensor, inside the HDA. > If we could find a pinout of the motor cable, or a schematic for the drive, it would be possible to see what is > going on there. > > > [1] Some larger hard drives, the Diablo 30 springs to mind, had brush-type DC permanent magnet spindle > motors (and in the case of the Diablo 30, positioner motors, but that is another saga). Many full-height > 5.25" floppy drives have permananet magnet brush-type spindle motors (belt driven to the actual spindle. > But I have never seen an 8" or 5.25" winchester drive that does. > > >> Interestingly at one point it started working again. Then after I put it all back together again, it stopped working >> once more. In one case, it seemed to start spinning when I changed the disk's orientation (on its side rather >> than flat), almost as if it just needed a mechanical encouragement to get it moving. But now, no matter how >> many times I try, and what different orientations I try, it doesn't work. Does any of that help with pointing the >> finger at all? > Maybe if one hall sensor or drive to one of the motor phases has failed then turning the drive moved the spindle > just enough to get another motor phase energised and it started running (possibly not on all 3 phases properly), > > -tony -- ---------------- Gr?sse Armin Diehl ad at ardiehl.de From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 4 14:57:15 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 19:57:15 +0000 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> Message-ID: > here the schematics of the XT 1140 from a basic four manual > > http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/download/mai2000/Maxtor_XT-1140_Schematics.pdf Thanks for that, it is something I have been looking for for some time. Page 9 of that .pdf seems to show the spindle motor controller. My guess is the 3 signals H1, H2, H3 are the signals from the 3 hall sensors in the motor. I think I would start by seeing what is there (look as though they should be TTL signals, so easy to check) and also see what the Z8 is sending to the motor driver circuits. Y1 is the clock crystal, see page 12 of that pdf. I assume it is oscillating, do you see the expected 6MHz on pin 9 of U41? I don't think it'll be possible (or at least not at all easy to replace the hall sensors. My guess is that the angular position of the platters is critical and they won't centralise accurately enough either. So I would only dismantle the HDA as a (very) last resort. -tony From billdeg at buzz1.com Sat Apr 4 15:30:25 2015 From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 16:30:25 -0400 Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap Message-ID: <28f3afd4df8f49b582d964fc671cdc6b@buzz1.com> I have one Altair turnkey (chassis only) and a bunch of DEC components available from a lot of computers I picked up the other day. I am looking only to recover expenses (truck and gas) and I don't want much. These are best for someone who has experience cleaning a "barn find" as this is where I got these items. The real "cost" will be the time needed to take apart these systems and clean thoroughly. I did not see evidence of any chewed wires fortunately, just nests, some urine staining, seed storage, etc. All of the computers were working maybe 20 years ago-ish but they have fallen into neglect. http://vintagecomputer.net/temp2/ Best offer for some/all, pick up only. Landenberg, PA. No I will not deliver to VCF. CONTACT ME HERE: http://vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm - PDP 11/34 #1 (no serial card but otherwise populated) * - PDP 11/34 #2 (with Hard drives, racked, no serial card but otherwise populated) * - PDP 11/44 (mostly populated complete maybe) * - Tall rack with RK05 ** and hard drive for DEC 11/34 #1 - Altair Turnkey, chassis only. * asterisk key: * items contains/contained a rodent nest. ** I tried but could not extend from rack, rails rusted? NOTE - I will keep these items outside ready to be taken. They will be tightly covered with a new tarp, the weather should be nice for a while. That said, if you want these items held for an extended period I can't guarantee that they'll stay dry forever. Act Now! Bill From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 4 16:06:04 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 22:06:04 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> Message-ID: <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 04 April 2015 20:57 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > > > here the schematics of the XT 1140 from a basic four manual > > > > http://www.ardiehl.de/basicfour/download/mai2000/Maxtor_XT- > 1140_Schema > > tics.pdf > > Thanks for that, it is something I have been looking for for some time. > > Page 9 of that .pdf seems to show the spindle motor controller. My guess is the > 3 signals H1, H2, H3 are the signals from the 3 hall sensors in the motor. I think > I would start by seeing what is there (look as though they should be TTL signals, > so easy to check) and also see what the Z8 is sending to the motor driver > circuits. > > Y1 is the clock crystal, see page 12 of that pdf. I assume it is oscillating, do you > see the expected 6MHz on pin 9 of U41? > > I don't think it'll be possible (or at least not at all easy to replace the hall > sensors. My guess is that the angular position of the platters is critical and they > won't centralise accurately enough either. > So I would only dismantle the HDA as a (very) last resort. > > -tony > = So when I fired it up again with the scope, the disk started to spin. This was a stroke of luck as I was able to probe what I believe were the outputs of the hall sensors. All three oscillated, but one of them showed significant sideways wobble on the scope, which suggests to me that the signal is not absolutely regular. It does seem to suggest that one of the sensors is not working well. However, would this be enough to explain why it stopped dead in its tracks when it was working before? Changing one of these sensors is probably going to be beyond me :-( Thanks Rob From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 4 16:17:59 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2015 16:17:59 -0500 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com> On 04/04/2015 04:06 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > So when I fired it up again with the scope, the disk > started to spin. This was a stroke of luck as I was able > to probe what I believe were the outputs of the hall > sensors. All three oscillated, but one of them showed > significant sideways wobble on the scope, which suggests > to me that the signal is not absolutely regular. It does > seem to suggest that one of the sensors is not working > well. However, would this be enough to explain why it > stopped dead in its tracks when it was working before? Yes, the logic is generally that you decode 6 legal states of the Hall sensors to decide which of the 3 motor terminals to drive high and low. if the Hall sensors give a signal that has all 3 high, or all 3 low, the decode logic will fail, generally leaving all transistors off. If it gets in that state again, a vigorous twist of the drive around the spindle axis might shift the rotor to a position where it will start up again. > Changing one of these sensors is probably going to be > beyond me :-( Thanks Rob I'd get the data off it quickly and retire the drive. You may only have a few minutes run time before the sensors go more flaky and the drive shuts off. But, now that you know the secret, you ought to be able to recover data, if that is the plan. Anyway, it seems you have completely diagnosed the problem. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 4 16:51:03 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 22:51:03 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0c3801d06f21$728fb950$57af2bf0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 04 April 2015 22:18 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > On 04/04/2015 04:06 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > So when I fired it up again with the scope, the disk started to spin. > > This was a stroke of luck as I was able to probe what I believe were > > the outputs of the hall sensors. All three oscillated, but one of them > > showed significant sideways wobble on the scope, which suggests to me > > that the signal is not absolutely regular. It does seem to suggest > > that one of the sensors is not working well. However, would this be > > enough to explain why it stopped dead in its tracks when it was > > working before? > Yes, the logic is generally that you decode 6 legal states of the Hall sensors to > decide which of the 3 motor terminals to drive high and low. if the Hall sensors > give a signal that has all 3 high, or all 3 low, the decode logic will fail, generally > leaving all transistors off. If it gets in that state again, a vigorous twist of the > drive around the spindle axis might shift the rotor to a position where it will > start up again. > > Changing one of these sensors is probably going to be beyond me :-( > > Thanks Rob > I'd get the data off it quickly and retire the drive. You may only have a few > minutes run time before the sensors go more flaky and the drive shuts off. But, > now that you know the secret, you ought to be able to recover data, if that is > the plan. > > Anyway, it seems you have completely diagnosed the problem. > Thanks. There is no critical data on the drive. I just wanted to use it to show my MicroVAX II at DEC Legacy (in the UK next week) working without booting off a network :-( Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 5 02:55:21 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 08:55:21 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 04 April 2015 22:18 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > On 04/04/2015 04:06 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > So when I fired it up again with the scope, the disk started to spin. > > This was a stroke of luck as I was able to probe what I believe were > > the outputs of the hall sensors. All three oscillated, but one of them > > showed significant sideways wobble on the scope, which suggests to me > > that the signal is not absolutely regular. It does seem to suggest > > that one of the sensors is not working well. However, would this be > > enough to explain why it stopped dead in its tracks when it was > > working before? > Yes, the logic is generally that you decode 6 legal states of the Hall sensors to > decide which of the 3 motor terminals to drive high and low. if the Hall sensors > give a signal that has all 3 high, or all 3 low, the decode logic will fail, generally > leaving all transistors off. If it gets in that state again, a vigorous twist of the > drive around the spindle axis might shift the rotor to a position where it will > start up again. > > Changing one of these sensors is probably going to be beyond me :-( > > Thanks Rob > I'd get the data off it quickly and retire the drive. You may only have a few > minutes run time before the sensors go more flaky and the drive shuts off. But, > now that you know the secret, you ought to be able to recover data, if that is > the plan. > > Anyway, it seems you have completely diagnosed the problem. > > Jon I checked again this morning, because something was bothering me. I realised that the pins I was observing with the scope were the D pins on the FETs and not the hall effect sensor outputs. When I went back to measure the sensor output properly the outputs looked fine and perfectly stable. The outputs from the Z8 also looked fine. The outputs of the inverters into the FETs looked stable, although not square (pics here: http://1drv.ms/1a39cwz here: http://1drv.ms/1a39kfs and here: http://1drv.ms/1a39pju). It is only the output of one of the FETs that looks a bit unstable, but that could be a triggering problem because the signal is a bit irregular (pic here: http://1drv.ms/1a39ymO), the other two FETs have similarly shaped outputs but do not wobble in the same way. I wonder if replacing that FET might do the trick? Or is the inverter the problem as the inputs are perfectly square? Incidentally, the last few times, the disk has fired up every time. Regards Rob From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Apr 5 05:01:59 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 12:01:59 +0200 Subject: Miscellaneous Freebies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150405100159.GA10389@Update.UU.SE> What is an 11/780 logo? some part of the rack? If the claimant does get back to you. I'm interrested. On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 11:57:41AM -0600, Technobug wrote: > A while back I offered an 11/780 logo which was claimed. However, in the mean time my mail system got cleaned and the address of the claimant when into the ether. If the person who responded will send me their address I will get it in the mail post-haste. > > ->CRC From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 5 07:51:34 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 08:51:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap Message-ID: <20150405125134.487AF18C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: B Degnan > I have one Altair turnkey (chassis only) and a bunch of DEC components > available It sounds like Bill's mailbox is exploding... :-) Apparently the DEC stuff already has several people who are willing to take it. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 5 12:21:26 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 13:21:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap Message-ID: <20150405172126.37A5D18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: B Degnan > I have one Altair turnkey (chassis only) and a bunch of DEC components > available from a lot of computers I picked up the other day. So I wound up with all the DEC gear from this (I gather the Altair is gone too), but I'm not at all sure I want the System Industries hard drives. (I assume there's at least one controller for them there, but all I know is what's in Bill's posting. :-) Is there anyone out there who'd be interested in them, if I decide I don't want them? Free (basically) to a good home (although if you can't do a pickup, we'd have to look into shipping). Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 15:39:54 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 22:39:54 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/04 running CAPS-11 Message-ID: During approximately one and a half year I have been restoring a little PDP-11/04 computer with a TU60 DECassette drive and a LA30P Decwriter. I have followed the trail of Lou and got it to run CAPS-11 as well as CAPS-11/BASIC. It has been an interesting journey to repair it and actually trying to use it give a glimpse of what it was like to develop software 40 years ago on a minimalistic system like this. Since it only has 8kW of memory the BASIC system uses overlays. It takes at least half a minute to load the runtime environment when you hit the RUN command - and then half a minute to get back to the editor again after running. Indeed patience demanding. I put together a webpage: http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04 and a short video when it runs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQsP444N5zQ /Mattis From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 5 15:52:23 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 22:52:23 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/04 running CAPS-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mattis, Nice work, and great video. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Mattis Lind" Verzonden: ?5-?4-?2015 22:40 Aan: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Onderwerp: PDP-11/04 running CAPS-11 During approximately one and a half year I have been restoring a little PDP-11/04 computer with a TU60 DECassette drive and a LA30P Decwriter. I have followed the trail of Lou and got it to run CAPS-11 as well as CAPS-11/BASIC. It has been an interesting journey to repair it and actually trying to use it give a glimpse of what it was like to develop software 40 years ago on a minimalistic system like this. Since it only has 8kW of memory the BASIC system uses overlays. It takes at least half a minute to load the runtime environment when you hit the RUN command - and then half a minute to get back to the editor again after running. Indeed patience demanding. I put together a webpage: http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04 and a short video when it runs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQsP444N5zQ /Mattis From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 5 08:44:22 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 13:44:22 +0000 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com>, <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > Incidentally, the last few times, the disk has fired up every time. > It's not something silly like a bad contact on one of the PCB-HDA connectors. is it? -tony From scaron at umich.edu Sun Apr 5 09:32:02 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 10:32:02 -0400 Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: <20150405125134.487AF18C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150405125134.487AF18C0CF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: LOL... not surprised... So many 11/34s... If I was within 100 miles of driving range I'd have been all over it! I'll just have to be happy with my one :O Best, Sean On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 8:51 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: B Degnan > > > I have one Altair turnkey (chassis only) and a bunch of DEC > components > > available > > It sounds like Bill's mailbox is exploding... :-) Apparently the DEC stuff > already has several people who are willing to take it. > > Noel > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 5 10:25:58 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 16:25:58 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com>, <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I suppose that is possible, but not sure that would explain the dead stop, although I suppose it isn't impossible. I was nowhere near it when it happened. Do the signals I posted look right to you? Would you expect inconsistent triggering on the scope on just one of the FET outputs? -----Original Message----- From: "tony duell" Sent: ?05/?04/?2015 14:44 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > Incidentally, the last few times, the disk has fired up every time. > It's not something silly like a bad contact on one of the PCB-HDA connectors. is it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 5 11:02:54 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 16:02:54 +0000 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <20150405152749.6DB022073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com>, <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> , <20150405152749.6DB022073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > I suppose that is possible, but not sure that would explain the dead stop, although I suppose it isn't impossible. I Bad connections rarely do anything you expect :-) > was nowhere near it when it happened. Do the signals I posted look right to you? Would you expect inconsistent > triggering on the scope on just one of the FET outputs? More seriously, have you tried swapping the FETs round to see if the dodgy signal goes with a particular transistor? -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 5 11:52:06 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 17:52:06 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com>, <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> , <20150405152749.6DB022073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Not tried swapping them as they are firmly attached to a heat sink. If I have further problems will try this. -----Original Message----- From: "tony duell" Sent: ?05/?04/?2015 17:03 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: RD54 Stopped Spinning > I suppose that is possible, but not sure that would explain the dead stop, although I suppose it isn't impossible. I Bad connections rarely do anything you expect :-) > was nowhere near it when it happened. Do the signals I posted look right to you? Would you expect inconsistent > triggering on the scope on just one of the FET outputs? More seriously, have you tried swapping the FETs round to see if the dodgy signal goes with a particular transistor? -tony From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Apr 5 11:54:38 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2015 11:54:38 -0500 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com> <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <552168CE.40704@pico-systems.com> On 04/05/2015 02:55 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson >> Sent: 04 April 2015 22:18 >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning >> >> On 04/04/2015 04:06 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>> So when I fired it up again with the scope, the disk started to spin. >>> This was a stroke of luck as I was able to probe what I believe were >>> the outputs of the hall sensors. All three oscillated, but one of them >>> showed significant sideways wobble on the scope, which suggests to me >>> that the signal is not absolutely regular. It does seem to suggest >>> that one of the sensors is not working well. However, would this be >>> enough to explain why it stopped dead in its tracks when it was >>> working before? >> Yes, the logic is generally that you decode 6 legal states of the Hall > sensors to >> decide which of the 3 motor terminals to drive high and low. if the Hall > sensors >> give a signal that has all 3 high, or all 3 low, the decode logic will > fail, generally >> leaving all transistors off. If it gets in that state again, a vigorous > twist of the >> drive around the spindle axis might shift the rotor to a position where it > will >> start up again. >>> Changing one of these sensors is probably going to be beyond me :-( >>> Thanks Rob >> I'd get the data off it quickly and retire the drive. You may only have a > few >> minutes run time before the sensors go more flaky and the drive shuts off. > But, >> now that you know the secret, you ought to be able to recover data, if > that is >> the plan. >> >> Anyway, it seems you have completely diagnosed the problem. >> >> Jon > I checked again this morning, because something was bothering me. I realised > that the pins I was observing with the scope were the D pins on the FETs and > not the hall effect sensor outputs. When I went back to measure the sensor > output properly the outputs looked fine and perfectly stable. The outputs > from the Z8 also looked fine. The outputs of the inverters into the FETs > looked stable, although not square (pics here: http://1drv.ms/1a39cwz here: > http://1drv.ms/1a39kfs and here: http://1drv.ms/1a39pju). It is only the > output of one of the FETs that looks a bit unstable, but that could be a > triggering problem because the signal is a bit irregular (pic here: > http://1drv.ms/1a39ymO), the other two FETs have similarly shaped outputs > but do not wobble in the same way. I wonder if replacing that FET might do > the trick? Or is the inverter the problem as the inputs are perfectly > square? > > Do the gate signals not have the wobble? (Wobble could be the PWM of the speed control logic, so could be normal.) If so, then the FET may be bad. In fact, the FET may be entirely OPEN, and the waveform you see is coming from the other two driven phases. Kind of strange that one gate signal is a smooth ramp, the others have some wave on the top. But, the drive probably has a current sense resistor in the common source leg of the low-side transistors, so that is feeding some of the current waveform back to the gates. So, it may well be the one with the linear ramp on the top indicates the drain is open. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Apr 5 11:57:22 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2015 11:57:22 -0500 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com>, <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> , <20150405152749.6DB022073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <55216972.1080408@pico-systems.com> Oh, are you SURE these are FETs? At that vintage, they could much more likely be Darlington bipolar transistors. The waveforms would make more sense that way, too. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 5 17:15:15 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2015 15:15:15 -0700 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com>, <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> , <20150405152749.6DB022073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5521B3F3.4090007@sydex.com> On 04/05/2015 09:02 AM, tony duell wrote: > More seriously, have you tried swapping the FETs round to see if the dodgy signal goes with a particular > transistor? That reminds me--about a year ago, I powered up an XT 1140 and it was working well, then after about half-hour, it started spinning (audibly) slower and slower over a period of about 3 minutes, then refused to spin at all. It's not important to me, but has anyone else ever seen this happen? --Chuck From kirkbdavis at hush.com Sun Apr 5 18:25:33 2015 From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (kirkbdavis at hush.com) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2015 16:25:33 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/04 running CAPS-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20150405232533.47391401E3@smtp.hushmail.com> NICE! Great video. Thanks for taking the time to make it and put it up. Kirk On April 5, 2015 at 1:39 PM, "Mattis Lind" wrote: > >During approximately one and a half year I have been restoring a >little >PDP-11/04 computer with a TU60 DECassette drive and a LA30P >Decwriter. I >have followed the trail of Lou and got it to run CAPS-11 as well as >CAPS-11/BASIC. > >It has been an interesting journey to repair it and actually >trying to use >it give a glimpse of what it was like to develop software 40 years >ago on a >minimalistic system like this. Since it only has 8kW of memory the >BASIC >system uses overlays. It takes at least half a minute to load the >runtime >environment when you hit the RUN command - and then half a minute >to get >back to the editor again after running. Indeed patience demanding. > >I put together a webpage: >http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment- >corporation/pdp-11-04 > >and a short video when it runs: >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQsP444N5zQ > >/Mattis From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 5 16:40:44 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 22:40:44 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <552168CE.40704@pico-systems.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com> <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> <552168CE.40704@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0c7a01d06fe9$2bcaabb0$83600310$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 05 April 2015 17:55 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > On 04/05/2015 02:55 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon > >> Elson > >> Sent: 04 April 2015 22:18 > >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > >> > >> On 04/04/2015 04:06 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >>> So when I fired it up again with the scope, the disk started to spin. > >>> This was a stroke of luck as I was able to probe what I believe were > >>> the outputs of the hall sensors. All three oscillated, but one of > >>> them showed significant sideways wobble on the scope, which suggests > >>> to me that the signal is not absolutely regular. It does seem to > >>> suggest that one of the sensors is not working well. However, would > >>> this be enough to explain why it stopped dead in its tracks when it > >>> was working before? > >> Yes, the logic is generally that you decode 6 legal states of the > >> Hall > > sensors to > >> decide which of the 3 motor terminals to drive high and low. if the > >> Hall > > sensors > >> give a signal that has all 3 high, or all 3 low, the decode logic > >> will > > fail, generally > >> leaving all transistors off. If it gets in that state again, a > >> vigorous > > twist of the > >> drive around the spindle axis might shift the rotor to a position > >> where it > > will > >> start up again. > >>> Changing one of these sensors is probably going to be beyond me :-( > >>> Thanks Rob > >> I'd get the data off it quickly and retire the drive. You may only > >> have a > > few > >> minutes run time before the sensors go more flaky and the drive shuts off. > > But, > >> now that you know the secret, you ought to be able to recover data, > >> if > > that is > >> the plan. > >> > >> Anyway, it seems you have completely diagnosed the problem. > >> > >> Jon > > I checked again this morning, because something was bothering me. I > > realised that the pins I was observing with the scope were the D pins > > on the FETs and not the hall effect sensor outputs. When I went back > > to measure the sensor output properly the outputs looked fine and > > perfectly stable. The outputs from the Z8 also looked fine. The > > outputs of the inverters into the FETs looked stable, although not square (pics > here: http://1drv.ms/1a39cwz here: > > http://1drv.ms/1a39kfs and here: http://1drv.ms/1a39pju). It is only > > the output of one of the FETs that looks a bit unstable, but that > > could be a triggering problem because the signal is a bit irregular (pic here: > > http://1drv.ms/1a39ymO), the other two FETs have similarly shaped > > outputs but do not wobble in the same way. I wonder if replacing that > > FET might do the trick? Or is the inverter the problem as the inputs > > are perfectly square? > > > > > Do the gate signals not have the wobble? (Wobble could be the PWM of the > speed control logic, so could be normal.) If so, then the FET may be bad. In > fact, the FET may be entirely OPEN, and the waveform you see is coming from > the other two driven phases. > > Kind of strange that one gate signal is a smooth ramp, the others have some > wave on the top. > But, the drive probably has a current sense resistor in the common source leg > of the low-side transistors, so that is feeding some of the current waveform > back to the gates. So, it may well be the one with the linear ramp on the top > indicates the drain is open. > > Jon I tested each FET using a component tester (Peak DCA55) and it appeared to show that they were all good. I believe they are FETs because the XT-1140 schematic someone posted shows FETs and the component tester also reported them as FETs. I do wonder if one of them is only partially working, I seem to remember that the one you point out as having smooth ramp was indeed the one with the wobble. If I have further trouble I will follow Tony's suggestion and swap them around to see if the wobble moves, but detaching them from the heat-sink looks to be difficult. Regards Rob From keith at saracom.com Sun Apr 5 17:47:56 2015 From: keith at saracom.com (keith at saracom.com) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2015 18:47:56 -0400 Subject: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09235ba61ec5107796c60eec9016b739@saracom.com> Hello, I am in the process of moving and need to pare down my spare parts collection. I have several BA23 chassis with power supplies. I do not know the condition as they have been stored in my shed for years. They do not include modules or outer shells. If you pickup in Lexington KY, they are free. Thanks Max From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Apr 5 19:48:02 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2015 19:48:02 -0500 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0c7a01d06fe9$2bcaabb0$83600310$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com> <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> <552168CE.40704@pico-systems.com> <0c7a01d06fe9$2bcaabb0$83600310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5521D7C2.1080403@pico-systems.com> On 04/05/2015 04:40 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I tested each FET using a component tester (Peak DCA55) > and it appeared to show that they were all good. I believe > they are FETs because the XT-1140 schematic someone posted > shows FETs and the component tester also reported them as > FETs. I do wonder if one of them is only partially > working, I seem to remember that the one you point out as > having smooth ramp was indeed the one with the wobble. If > I have further trouble I will follow Tony's suggestion and > swap them around to see if the wobble moves, but detaching > them from the heat-sink looks to be difficult. Regards Rob I'd just get some FETs that are compatible (probably MUCH better parts available today) and replace any suspect ones with new units. Are these pop-riveted to the heat sink? I vaguely remember a drive built like that. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 6 01:05:30 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 07:05:30 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <5521D7C2.1080403@pico-systems.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com> <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> <552168CE.40704@pico-systems.com> <0c7a01d06fe9$2bcaabb0$83600310$@ntlworld.com> <5521D7C2.1080403@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0c7f01d0702f$af7ef010$0e7cd030$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 06 April 2015 01:48 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > > On 04/05/2015 04:40 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I tested each FET using a component tester (Peak DCA55) and it > > appeared to show that they were all good. I believe they are FETs > > because the XT-1140 schematic someone posted shows FETs and the > > component tester also reported them as FETs. I do wonder if one of > > them is only partially working, I seem to remember that the one you > > point out as having smooth ramp was indeed the one with the wobble. If > > I have further trouble I will follow Tony's suggestion and swap them > > around to see if the wobble moves, but detaching them from the > > heat-sink looks to be difficult. Regards Rob > I'd just get some FETs that are compatible (probably MUCH better parts > available today) and replace any suspect ones with new units. Are these pop- > riveted to the heat sink? I vaguely remember a drive built like that. > > Jon I might do what you suggest. They are IRF521 N-Channel and IRF9521 P-Channel parts, I'll have to find equivalents. Not knowing too much about the significance of the main parameters, I am not sure how critical the equivalence needs to be. For example it appears that the IRF521 has Vdss=60V, Rds(on)=0.3ohm, Id=5A-8A (temperature dependent), while a similarly numbered modern part I found (IRF540Z) has Vdss=100V, Rds(on)=0.0265ohm, Id=36A . The heat sink is not riveted on, but appears to be glued on. I have not really tried to remove it yet; to test the parts I removed all 6 of them (the heatsink is a single one across all 6 parts). Regards Rob From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 01:42:26 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 02:42:26 -0400 Subject: Help needed please re possible loss of a Burroughs B7800 CPU In-Reply-To: <285cfc72c09f345f1106accc5be49aee1c96456e@webmail.netregistry.net> References: <285cfc72c09f345f1106accc5be49aee1c96456e@webmail.netregistry.net> Message-ID: Presumably unrelated, but claims to be "gates" from a Burroughs computer: http://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLD-PIN-WIRE-WRAP-1977-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-BOARDS-SCRAP-OR-USE-/221735150316 Poor photo, alas. On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 8:41 PM, wrote: > For those who don't know, Monash University (Melbourne Australia) has > had the chassis of a B7800 CPU sitting around under a stoir case, left > over from the days when a series of large Burroughs systems had been > in use there during the seventies. > I'm no expert on Burroughs systems, but from all the Internet based > trawling I've done over the years it appears that Burroughs had a > 'scorched earth' policy, and systematically reclaimed and disposed of > all B5000 and onward family machines. At least to date, I haven't been > able to find any other surviving example of a B5000 family machine (or > major components). Naturally I'd be very happy to be proved wrong. > Unfortunately all cards and power supplies had been removed but it > still had the basic frame, backplane (very impressive in it's own > right) and two large front control panels all in place (also very > impressive). > (I've been told that the front panels were pulled prior to disposal). > Many of you will be familiar with Ralph Klimek and his amazing stories > of life as a technician with these machines. > He has some pictures of this particular frame, about mid way down this > page on his site: > http://users.monash.edu.au/~ralphk/burroughs.html > Because I live close by, I was dropping in every so often to check up > on both this frame, and a (smaller) VAX 11/780 sitting next to it. > Because the Uni has quite a decent vintage computer display in place > at it's Caulfied campus, I had felt comfortable that both machines > were safe. > On a relatively recent visit (a few months ago, late last year? I'm > not quite sure as life is a bit of a blur at present) I noticed that > both machines had gone, and that some renovations were taking place in > the building. > I felt that the machines must be safe but decided I should try and > make contact to be sure (working in ICT for so long, I should have > known not to trust an assumption), > A few days ago I got a note back saying that the Uni had requested the > builders to remove the B7800 chassis and dispose of it (the 11/780 was > moved to the Caufield collection). > Since then I've gone on a bit of a campaign to try and find out of the > machine might still be sitting somewhere with the builder (or their > sub-contracter). It's a very long shot, but in this case I think most > here on the list would agree it's worth it? Apparently the scrap metal > value would be quite low at the moment, and hopefully whoever has it > has been too busy to deal with disposal yet (a long shot, as I said). > I've managed to speak to numerous people both inside the Uni and the > builder, but have realised from them that my enquiries now need to be > pushed four ways - into two Schools within the Uni, and also two > service departments. My problem is that I'm attempting to get a > startup software company off the ground, so time isn't something that > I've got any of, let trying to push my way through contacting people > within four different internal departments (and sitting through all > the on-hold music, call transfers & drop outs). > I don't think that the Uni wants this chassis at the end of the day. > Is there anyone who can attack this at a higher level? I'm happy to > pass on relevant details to anyone who could help positively (I don't > want to cause unnecessary aggravation by posting everything here, the > people I've spoken to have already been as helpful as they can). > If it's true that it is possibly one of the last existing CPU frames > of the B5000 family, and if it went to one of the major Museums in the > US as a result, that would be a great outcome (if it still exists at > all). > Regards Evan > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Apr 6 03:15:58 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 09:15:58 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 06 Apr 2015 07:05:30 +0100" <0c7f01d0702f$af7ef010$0e7cd030$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com> <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com> <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> <552168CE.40704@pico-systems.com> <0c7a01d06fe9$2bcaabb0$83600310$@ntlworld.com> <5521D7C2.1080403@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <01PKHGTBWBVO006V6Y@beyondthepale.ie> > >The heat sink is not riveted on, but appears to be glued on. I have not >really tried to remove it yet; to test the parts I removed all 6 of them >(the heatsink is a single one across all 6 parts). > Perhaps the FETs could be wired back into different locations for test purposes using extension leads without having to detach them from the heatsink? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Mon Apr 6 03:28:10 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 18:28:10 +1000 Subject: Help needed please re possible loss of a Burroughs B7800 CPU In-Reply-To: <285cfc72c09f345f1106accc5be49aee1c96456e@webmail.netregistry.net> References: <285cfc72c09f345f1106accc5be49aee1c96456e@webmail.netregistry.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 11:41 AM, wrote: > Is there anyone who can attack this at a higher level? I'm happy to > pass on relevant details to anyone who could help positively (I don't > want to cause unnecessary aggravation by posting everything here, the > people I've spoken to have already been as helpful as they can). Well done scouting out what happened, I've emailed Ralph to see if he knows something. > If it's true that it is possibly one of the last existing CPU frames > of the B5000 family, and if it went to one of the major Museums in the > US as a result, that would be a great outcome (if it still exists at > all). Small correction, B7700/B7800 is a unique system, it's own family, loosely related to the B6700 family (it was intended to be B6500/B6700 compatible, they diverged at one point and then forcibly merged back). You could say an extant B7800 frame is a "last existing CPU frame of Burroughs large-system", I don't know of any that survived intact, although there are rumors. From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au Mon Apr 6 05:05:07 2015 From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (Evan Linwood) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 20:05:07 +1000 Subject: Help needed please re possible loss of a Burroughs B7800 CPU In-Reply-To: References: <285cfc72c09f345f1106accc5be49aee1c96456e@webmail.netregistry.net> Message-ID: <004901d07051$2a3fa3a0$7ebeeae0$@eastek.com.au> Hi Paul, Thanks very much, I hadn't seen those items - quite impressive. As you say they don't appear to be directly related, and appear to be older & bigger than for a B7800 processor. I've sent him a message asking for more details - Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel Sent: Monday, 6 April 2015 4:42 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Help needed please re possible loss of a Burroughs B7800 CPU Presumably unrelated, but claims to be "gates" from a Burroughs computer: http://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLD-PIN-WIRE-WRAP-1977-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-BOARDS-SCRAP-OR-USE-/221735150316 Poor photo, alas. On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 8:41 PM, wrote: > For those who don't know, Monash University (Melbourne Australia) has > had the chassis of a B7800 CPU sitting around under a stoir case, left > over from the days when a series of large Burroughs systems had been > in use there during the seventies. > I'm no expert on Burroughs systems, but from all the Internet based > trawling I've done over the years it appears that Burroughs had a > 'scorched earth' policy, and systematically reclaimed and disposed of > all B5000 and onward family machines. At least to date, I haven't been > able to find any other surviving example of a B5000 family machine (or > major components). Naturally I'd be very happy to be proved wrong. > Unfortunately all cards and power supplies had been removed but it > still had the basic frame, backplane (very impressive in it's own > right) and two large front control panels all in place (also very > impressive). > (I've been told that the front panels were pulled prior to disposal). > Many of you will be familiar with Ralph Klimek and his amazing stories > of life as a technician with these machines. > He has some pictures of this particular frame, about mid way down this > page on his site: > http://users.monash.edu.au/~ralphk/burroughs.html > Because I live close by, I was dropping in every so often to check up > on both this frame, and a (smaller) VAX 11/780 sitting next to it. > Because the Uni has quite a decent vintage computer display in place > at it's Caulfied campus, I had felt comfortable that both machines > were safe. > On a relatively recent visit (a few months ago, late last year? I'm > not quite sure as life is a bit of a blur at present) I noticed that > both machines had gone, and that some renovations were taking place in > the building. > I felt that the machines must be safe but decided I should try and > make contact to be sure (working in ICT for so long, I should have > known not to trust an assumption), A few days ago I got a note back > saying that the Uni had requested the builders to remove the B7800 > chassis and dispose of it (the 11/780 was moved to the Caufield > collection). > Since then I've gone on a bit of a campaign to try and find out of the > machine might still be sitting somewhere with the builder (or their > sub-contracter). It's a very long shot, but in this case I think most > here on the list would agree it's worth it? Apparently the scrap metal > value would be quite low at the moment, and hopefully whoever has it > has been too busy to deal with disposal yet (a long shot, as I said). > I've managed to speak to numerous people both inside the Uni and the > builder, but have realised from them that my enquiries now need to be > pushed four ways - into two Schools within the Uni, and also two > service departments. My problem is that I'm attempting to get a > startup software company off the ground, so time isn't something that > I've got any of, let trying to push my way through contacting people > within four different internal departments (and sitting through all > the on-hold music, call transfers & drop outs). > I don't think that the Uni wants this chassis at the end of the day. > Is there anyone who can attack this at a higher level? I'm happy to > pass on relevant details to anyone who could help positively (I don't > want to cause unnecessary aggravation by posting everything here, the > people I've spoken to have already been as helpful as they can). > If it's true that it is possibly one of the last existing CPU frames > of the B5000 family, and if it went to one of the major Museums in the > US as a result, that would be a great outcome (if it still exists at > all). > Regards Evan > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 6 10:41:00 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 10:41:00 -0500 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: <0c7f01d0702f$af7ef010$0e7cd030$@ntlworld.com> References: <0ba601d06d93$0337e800$09a7b800$@ntlworld.com> <0bc001d06de4$03a06a00$0ae13e00$@ntlworld.com> <551E92F8.7040808@update.uu.se> <551EBF30.6080906@pico-systems.com>, <0bea01d06e30$82f69cb0$88e3d610$@ntlworld.com> , <55202F91.5070006@ardiehl.de> <0c3701d06f1b$295dd600$7c198200$@ntlworld.com> <55205507.9060602@pico-systems.com> <0c4e01d06f75$dda9bd90$98fd38b0$@ntlworld.com> <552168CE.40704@pico-systems.com> <0c7a01d06fe9$2bcaabb0$83600310$@ntlworld.com> <5521D7C2.1080403@pico-systems.com> <0c7f01d0702f$af7ef010$0e7cd030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5522A90C.5000204@pico-systems.com> On 04/06/2015 01:05 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson >> Sent: 06 April 2015 01:48 >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning >> >> On 04/05/2015 04:40 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>> I tested each FET using a component tester (Peak DCA55) and it >>> appeared to show that they were all good. I believe they are FETs >>> because the XT-1140 schematic someone posted shows FETs and the >>> component tester also reported them as FETs. I do wonder if one of >>> them is only partially working, I seem to remember that the one you >>> point out as having smooth ramp was indeed the one with the wobble. If >>> I have further trouble I will follow Tony's suggestion and swap them >>> around to see if the wobble moves, but detaching them from the >>> heat-sink looks to be difficult. Regards Rob >> I'd just get some FETs that are compatible (probably MUCH better parts >> available today) and replace any suspect ones with new units. Are these > pop- >> riveted to the heat sink? I vaguely remember a drive built like that. >> >> Jon > I might do what you suggest. They are IRF521 N-Channel and IRF9521 P-Channel > parts, I'll have to find equivalents. Not knowing too much about the > significance of the main parameters, I am not sure how critical the > equivalence needs to be. For example it appears that the IRF521 has > Vdss=60V, Rds(on)=0.3ohm, Id=5A-8A (temperature dependent), while a > similarly numbered modern part I found (IRF540Z) has Vdss=100V, > Rds(on)=0.0265ohm, Id=36A . > > The heat sink is not riveted on, but appears to be glued on. I have not > really tried to remove it yet; to test the parts I removed all 6 of them > (the heatsink is a single one across all 6 parts). > > There will have to be some electrical insulation as the drains of the low-side transistors can't be commoned. Make sure you select a transistor with equivalent threshold voltage (the gate voltage where it starts to turn on). Jon From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 10:06:31 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 11:06:31 -0400 Subject: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY In-Reply-To: <09235ba61ec5107796c60eec9016b739@saracom.com> References: <09235ba61ec5107796c60eec9016b739@saracom.com> Message-ID: Hey Max, I'll take a couple. You're a six-hour's drive from me, so it'll take me a sec to figure out when. How's Friday for you? On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 6:47 PM, wrote: > > > Hello, > > I am in the process of moving and need to pare down my spare parts > collection. I have several BA23 chassis with power supplies. > > I do not know the condition as they have been stored in my shed for > years. They do not include modules or outer shells. > > If you pickup in Lexington KY, they are free. > > Thanks > > Max > From keith at saracom.com Mon Apr 6 12:20:22 2015 From: keith at saracom.com (keith at saracom.com) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 13:20:22 -0400 Subject: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY - Taken In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74a272e1cd6f7dc12ff7f3a803b3c822@saracom.com> OK, I think all of them have been claimed now. If not I will report. Now to see what else is in the shed. thanks ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 11:06:31 -0400 From: Jacob Ritorto To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hey Max, I'll take a couple. You're a six-hour's drive from me, so it'll take me a sec to figure out when. How's Friday for you? On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 6:47 PM, wrote: >> Hello, I am in the process of moving and need to pare down my spare parts collection. I have several BA23 chassis with power supplies. I do not know the condition as they have been stored in my shed for years. They do not include modules or outer shells. If you pickup in Lexington KY, they are free. Thanks Max > ************************************ From useddec at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 16:23:42 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 16:23:42 -0500 Subject: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY - Taken In-Reply-To: <74a272e1cd6f7dc12ff7f3a803b3c822@saracom.com> References: <74a272e1cd6f7dc12ff7f3a803b3c822@saracom.com> Message-ID: If anyone needs any boards for them, feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > OK, I think all of them have been claimed now. If not I will report. Now > to see what else is in the shed. > > thanks > > ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 > 11:06:31 -0400 From: Jacob Ritorto To: > "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Subject: > Re: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hey Max, I'll take a couple. > You're a six-hour's drive from me, so it'll take me a sec to figure out > when. How's Friday for you? On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 6:47 PM, > wrote: > > >> Hello, I am in the process of moving and need to pare down my spare > parts collection. I have several BA23 chassis with power supplies. I do not > know the condition as they have been stored in my shed for years. They do > not include modules or outer shells. If you pickup in Lexington KY, they > are free. Thanks Max > > ************************************ > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 6 19:37:24 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 19:37:24 -0500 Subject: Looking for.... Message-ID: <000d01d070cb$04a0bf60$0de23e20$@classiccmp.org> I need another operational HP 7970E mag tape controller (13183 - 2 board set). It appears that the spare board sets I have are 13181 which I believe is only for the 7970A/B. All my drives are 7970E, so is there any chance someone has a 7970A/B but has a 13183 and would like to swap my 13181 for it? J Or if anyone has a spare 13183 they want to sell/trade... Best, J From christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com Mon Apr 6 17:54:39 2015 From: christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com (Christopher Parish) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 22:54:39 +0000 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem Message-ID: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). Of course, this is only true for RL02K-EF (error-free) packs. The common RL02K-DC packs (those with identified bad blocks from the factory) are another story. The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what to do with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I could skip the sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all zeros for the sector. Skipping the sector is a bad idea because the logical address of all sectors after it will shift down by one. This will make the disk image not work correctly with SIMH, or anything else for that matter, because most filesystems address things by physical block (Please correct me if I'm wrong here). Remember, we're at the device level (/dev/sda) not the partition level (/dev/sda1). Returning all zeros for bad sectors will preserve the block numbers of following sectors and work correctly with SIMH, but trying to restore the resulting image to another physical pack will probably be impossible given the destination disk pack has bad sectors of its own in different spots. The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will not work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. Writing some mapping index on the disk pack or holding back sectors in reserve will break compatibility with the original systems (PDP8s/11s/VAXes) and all their software (an unacceptable solution). I think I've come to the following conclusions given the restrictions above: - Creating and Restoring images with EF packs is unrestricted - SIMH operation with EF packs (online and images) will work perfectly - Creating images of DC packs will work with SIMH if I return zeros for the bad blocks - Online use of DC packs work with SIMH assuming no new bad blocks have formed since the bad block index was written - If new bad blocks have formed in a pack, SIMH will have to be modified so its RL(V)11 can receive error information from the drive, otherwise it will incorrectly handle the recovery - Restoring images on DC packs will require special software that can move data around the bad-blocks (or a linux RT-11 filesystem driver *wink*) - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) First, does all of this seem reasonable? I vaguely remember reading about a program on RT-11 you would run (before?) backing up the filesystem. What was this program? How did it work? Did it make the data position independent? Christopher From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 20:06:43 2015 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 20:06:43 -0500 Subject: Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) In-Reply-To: References: <09235ba61ec5107796c60eec9016b739@saracom.com> Message-ID: <2747195F-0DE1-46FF-86A0-8342435A3C63@gmail.com> I have a PDP 11/23+ I'm attempting to bring up and discovered why I wasn't getting anywhere- a metal screw had gotten into the supply shorting *something* on the supply PCB. I'm new to DEC equipment and I'm afraid this supply is beyond me. If someone has one for sale (this one marked H7861), please let me know. It looks serviceable and is likely repairable by an expert so that could be an option, too. Thanks, Cory From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 6 23:21:32 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:21:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) Message-ID: <20150407042132.A7EF618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Cory Heisterkamp > If someone has one for sale (this one marked H7861), please let me > know. Someone on eBay is selling one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/150947900783 They are asking $125, which is not wholly ridiculous, and will probably take slightly less. I've bought several from this seller, and they are in good shape. Also, at a pinch, I'm pretty sure (as in, I have looked at both closely, and verified that they have the same interfaces and physical dimensions, etc, so I think this will work, but I have yet to actually try it) an H786 would also work in that system. The only difference I know of is that the H7861 puts out a few more amps of +5V. No reasonably priced H786's on eBay at the moment, though. > It looks serviceable and is likely repairable by an expert so that > could be an option, too. I'd interested in buying the dead one from you (which should help offset the cost if you go for the eBay one) - please contact me off line if interested. Noel From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 23:32:20 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:32:20 -0400 Subject: Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) In-Reply-To: <20150407042132.A7EF618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150407042132.A7EF618C0FB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: coupla questions as an aside on this subject: 1) Which PS is more available on commodity market? 2) Assuming H7681, do you know how to wire a chassis that expects H768 to work with H7681? Or vice versa? 3) How can we make what we have on hand work for a long time? Bonus 4) Is there a commodity setup available to replace this analog kit entirely with new stuff? (probably a new thread) On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:21 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Cory Heisterkamp > > > If someone has one for sale (this one marked H7861), please let me > > know. > > Someone on eBay is selling one: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/150947900783 > > They are asking $125, which is not wholly ridiculous, and will probably > take > slightly less. I've bought several from this seller, and they are in good > shape. > > Also, at a pinch, I'm pretty sure (as in, I have looked at both closely, > and > verified that they have the same interfaces and physical dimensions, etc, > so I > think this will work, but I have yet to actually try it) an H786 would also > work in that system. The only difference I know of is that the H7861 puts > out > a few more amps of +5V. No reasonably priced H786's on eBay at the moment, > though. > > > It looks serviceable and is likely repairable by an expert so that > > could be an option, too. > > I'd interested in buying the dead one from you (which should help offset > the > cost if you go for the eBay one) - please contact me off line if > interested. > > Noel > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 00:41:48 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 23:41:48 -0600 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Christopher Parish wrote: > - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) I'm not sure which filesystems you have in mind as "modern", but filesystem-level support for bad blocks has largely faded away in recent decades, because for many years now all disk drives have implemented bad block replacement internally. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 00:41:48 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 23:41:48 -0600 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Christopher Parish wrote: > - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) I'm not sure which filesystems you have in mind as "modern", but filesystem-level support for bad blocks has largely faded away in recent decades, because for many years now all disk drives have implemented bad block replacement internally. From north at alum.mit.edu Tue Apr 7 00:53:59 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 22:53:59 -0700 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <552370F7.5050500@alum.mit.edu> Shouldn't the controller be using the DEC STD 144 bad sector replacement table in the last sector to transparently remap bad sectors such that, to the user, the -DC packs appear error free? If this were done each RL02 image should appear error-free in logical block address space as the hidden remapping of bad sectors on -DC drives would not be seen by the user (or O/S). All the other proposed ways of handling -DC bad sectors have serious compatibility issues. Don On 4/6/2015 3:54 PM, Christopher Parish wrote: > Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). Of course, this is only true for RL02K-EF (error-free) packs. The common RL02K-DC packs (those with identified bad blocks from the factory) are another story. > > > The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what to do with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I could skip the sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all zeros for the sector. > > > Skipping the sector is a bad idea because the logical address of all sectors after it will shift down by one. This will make the disk image not work correctly with SIMH, or anything else for that matter, because most filesystems address things by physical block (Please correct me if I'm wrong here). Remember, we're at the device level (/dev/sda) not the partition level (/dev/sda1). > > > Returning all zeros for bad sectors will preserve the block numbers of following sectors and work correctly with SIMH, but trying to restore the resulting image to another physical pack will probably be impossible given the destination disk pack has bad sectors of its own in different spots. > > > The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will not work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. Writing some mapping index on the disk pack or holding back sectors in reserve will break compatibility with the original systems (PDP8s/11s/VAXes) and all their software (an unacceptable solution). > > > I think I've come to the following conclusions given the restrictions above: > > > - Creating and Restoring images with EF packs is unrestricted > > - SIMH operation with EF packs (online and images) will work perfectly > > - Creating images of DC packs will work with SIMH if I return zeros for the bad blocks > > - Online use of DC packs work with SIMH assuming no new bad blocks have formed since the bad block index was written > > - If new bad blocks have formed in a pack, SIMH will have to be modified so its RL(V)11 can receive error information from the drive, otherwise it will incorrectly handle the recovery > > - Restoring images on DC packs will require special software that can move data around the bad-blocks (or a linux RT-11 filesystem driver *wink*) > > - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) > > > First, does all of this seem reasonable? > > > I vaguely remember reading about a program on RT-11 you would run (before?) backing up the filesystem. What was this program? How did it work? Did it make the data position independent? > > > Christopher > From north at alum.mit.edu Tue Apr 7 00:53:59 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 22:53:59 -0700 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <552370F7.5050500@alum.mit.edu> Shouldn't the controller be using the DEC STD 144 bad sector replacement table in the last sector to transparently remap bad sectors such that, to the user, the -DC packs appear error free? If this were done each RL02 image should appear error-free in logical block address space as the hidden remapping of bad sectors on -DC drives would not be seen by the user (or O/S). All the other proposed ways of handling -DC bad sectors have serious compatibility issues. Don On 4/6/2015 3:54 PM, Christopher Parish wrote: > Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). Of course, this is only true for RL02K-EF (error-free) packs. The common RL02K-DC packs (those with identified bad blocks from the factory) are another story. > > > The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what to do with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I could skip the sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all zeros for the sector. > > > Skipping the sector is a bad idea because the logical address of all sectors after it will shift down by one. This will make the disk image not work correctly with SIMH, or anything else for that matter, because most filesystems address things by physical block (Please correct me if I'm wrong here). Remember, we're at the device level (/dev/sda) not the partition level (/dev/sda1). > > > Returning all zeros for bad sectors will preserve the block numbers of following sectors and work correctly with SIMH, but trying to restore the resulting image to another physical pack will probably be impossible given the destination disk pack has bad sectors of its own in different spots. > > > The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will not work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. Writing some mapping index on the disk pack or holding back sectors in reserve will break compatibility with the original systems (PDP8s/11s/VAXes) and all their software (an unacceptable solution). > > > I think I've come to the following conclusions given the restrictions above: > > > - Creating and Restoring images with EF packs is unrestricted > > - SIMH operation with EF packs (online and images) will work perfectly > > - Creating images of DC packs will work with SIMH if I return zeros for the bad blocks > > - Online use of DC packs work with SIMH assuming no new bad blocks have formed since the bad block index was written > > - If new bad blocks have formed in a pack, SIMH will have to be modified so its RL(V)11 can receive error information from the drive, otherwise it will incorrectly handle the recovery > > - Restoring images on DC packs will require special software that can move data around the bad-blocks (or a linux RT-11 filesystem driver *wink*) > > - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) > > > First, does all of this seem reasonable? > > > I vaguely remember reading about a program on RT-11 you would run (before?) backing up the filesystem. What was this program? How did it work? Did it make the data position independent? > > > Christopher > From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 01:20:27 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 08:20:27 +0200 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning Message-ID: Hello, apart from the transistors, I would check for some bad capacitor. The analog part with the sensors needs quite clean supply to work good, while the motor itself is a big source of spikes and pulses. Possibly there could be some supply filter, with electrolytic capacitors not working as expected due to age... or with excessive current leakage. Andrea From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 7 05:21:31 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 12:21:31 +0200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> This might become a long answer. First of all, back when the RL drives were made, hardware handled bad block management wasn't yet popular in that neck of the woods. So bad blocks were/are visible to the software. In order to have some management of this, DEC had a standard - DEC STD144, which described how you kept track of, and managed, bad blocks. If you ever wondered where the Unix program bad144 got its name from, now you know (and the ultimate stupidness is NetBSD, where they decided that only the x86 platform would have bad144, leaving the VAX - the only hardware platform who actually had disks following the bad144 standard, not having the bad144 program). The STD144 reserves the last track of the device for pack information. In there you have the pack serial number, and also the manufacturer bad block list, and also the user bad block list. When/if new blocks are detected after the pack is manufactured, they would be placed in the user bad block list. So, a EF pack would simply be a pack with no bad blocks from the manufacturer. The manufacturer bad block list would contain no bad blocks. This does not mean that the pack could not develop bad blocks later. Now, a total imaging of one RL disk to another is not something you should do. That would replace the pack serial number, in addition to the issues with the bad block lists. Not to mention that different packs have bad blocks in different places. Sp, to get to the meat of it. No, bad blocks are not replaced, or mapped away, or faked. The drive and controller can detect bad blocks, and when you try to read one, you'll get an error back. Drivers try a few times, and then give up, giving an error back to the user program. You should not try anything different. Now moving over to how software deals with this, essentially all DEC OSes have some way or other to mark the known bad sectors as bad when the filesystem in created, and then no software will try to use them. I have some rough idea on how this is done in RT-11 and RSTS/E, but to give details, I'll describe how RSX does it. RSX have a program that scans disks for bad blocks. It is called BAD. BAD will update the last track with any new bad blocks found. A different program is used to create a file system on a disks - INI. INI will read the last track of the device, to get the manufacturer and user bad block list. INI will then create the file system on the disk, and allocate all the bad blocks on the disk to a special file - BADBLK.SYS. That way, those blocks are already marked as used, and other files created cannot accidentally include those bad blocks. Copying RL disks with a block by block copy is not something you'd do. You'd mount the disk and copy the contents. So, all disk blocks are numbered just as you would expect. Bad blocks are not hidden, or mapped away, or returns zeroes. Doing anything like that will break existing software. Johnny On 2015-04-07 00:54, Christopher Parish wrote: > Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). Of course, this is only true for RL02K-EF (error-free) packs. The common RL02K-DC packs (those with identified bad blocks from the factory) are another story. > > > The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what to do with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I could skip the sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all zeros for the sector. > > > Skipping the sector is a bad idea because the logical address of all sectors after it will shift down by one. This will make the disk image not work correctly with SIMH, or anything else for that matter, because most filesystems address things by physical block (Please correct me if I'm wrong here). Remember, we're at the device level (/dev/sda) not the partition level (/dev/sda1). > > > Returning all zeros for bad sectors will preserve the block numbers of following sectors and work correctly with SIMH, but trying to restore the resulting image to another physical pack will probably be impossible given the destination disk pack has bad sectors of its own in different spots. > > > The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will not work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. Writing some mapping index on the disk pack or holding back sectors in reserve will break compatibility with the original systems (PDP8s/11s/VAXes) and all their software (an unacceptable solution). > > > I think I've come to the following conclusions given the restrictions above: > > > - Creating and Restoring images with EF packs is unrestricted > > - SIMH operation with EF packs (online and images) will work perfectly > > - Creating images of DC packs will work with SIMH if I return zeros for the bad blocks > > - Online use of DC packs work with SIMH assuming no new bad blocks have formed since the bad block index was written > > - If new bad blocks have formed in a pack, SIMH will have to be modified so its RL(V)11 can receive error information from the drive, otherwise it will incorrectly handle the recovery > > - Restoring images on DC packs will require special software that can move data around the bad-blocks (or a linux RT-11 filesystem driver *wink*) > > - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) > > > First, does all of this seem reasonable? > > > I vaguely remember reading about a program on RT-11 you would run (before?) backing up the filesystem. What was this program? How did it work? Did it make the data position independent? > > > Christopher > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com Tue Apr 7 07:13:47 2015 From: christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com (Christopher Parish) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 12:13:47 +0000 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF0132@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> > [...] > Now, a total imaging of one RL disk to another is not something you > should do. That would replace the pack serial number, in addition to the > issues with the bad block lists. Not to mention that different packs > have bad blocks in different places. I agree. You're right that the best way to copy a pack is to load up the appropriate OS in the simulator and instruct it to do the work. Because it has knowledge of the filesystem, it will copy around bad blocks, identify new ones, etc. without stomping on the serial number and factory recorded bad block data. > Sp, to get to the meat of it. No, bad blocks are not replaced, or mapped > away, or faked. The drive and controller can detect bad blocks, and when > you try to read one, you'll get an error back. Drivers try a few times, > and then give up, giving an error back to the user program. > You should not try anything different. > [...] > Johnny I will have to patch SIMH to support this paradigm because right now it expects the backing store for its virtual RL02s to be readable at all times. IO errors trying to access the underlying "file" halt the simulator. Additionally, there is no way to report what type of error occurred via USB mass storage, only that fewer blocks were returned than expected. I think I'll need to have two completely different modes of operation. A USB Mass storage mode would use the pack like a modern hard disk. The controller would hide and internally use the last track for bad block identification and not expose it to the PC. Also, the controller would hold some number of sectors in reserve, presenting a flat, error free ~9.8MB disk to the PC. This would work for modern filesystems but be completely useless for SIMH and physical computer compatibility. The other mode will need to be a non mass storage interface like bulk or CDC mode specifically for use with SIMH and any custom diagnostics. SIMH (after modification) would then be able to access all the raw data on the pack and have access to any errors that occur, handling them however it wants. Copying packs would need to be done just like it is now, except in the simulator. You either mount or image and mount the first disk, load your favorite OS in SIMH attached to the physical drive, and instruct it to copy disk 1 to disk 2, letting it copy around bad blocks in the manner it always has (preserving compatibility). Christopher From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 7 07:41:08 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 13:41:08 +0100 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <5523D064.3040305@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/04/2015 23:54, Christopher Parish wrote: > Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete > operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access > (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the > controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). Very good! I want one :-) > The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. > Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what > to do with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I > could skip the sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all > zeros for the sector. > The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will > not work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. DEC does it by having the driver software remap sectors. > Writing some > mapping index on the disk pack or holding back sectors in reserve > will break compatibility with the original systems (PDP8s/11s/VAXes) > and all their software (an unacceptable solution). Eh? Use the existing bad block table which is on an RL01 or RL02, as on many other DEC disks. Return an error. Unless it's a block that's already in the bad block table at the end of the disk, in which case return the content of the remapped block, of course. If you don't do that, you'll break things in DEC OSs. > I vaguely remember reading about a program on RT-11 you would run > (before?) backing up the filesystem. What was this program? How did > it work? Did it make the data position independent? There are several ways to detect or handle bad blocks in RT-11. I suspect you're thinking of INIT/BAD or more likely DIR/BAD, or possibly BACKUP or FORMAT. INIT is is the monitor command to create an RT-11 filesystem on a disk; the /BAD option (full name BADBLOCKS, can be shortened to as little as /BA) tells it to scan the disk and report any bad blocks it finds. With no other options, it creates directory entries for files called FILE.BAD covering those blocks. INIT/BAD:RETAIN keeps any FILE.BAD it finds, and in most versions doesn't actually scan. This is really meant for devices that don't have a DEC standard bad block table (like floppies). Alternatively INIT/BAD/REPLACE doesn't write FILE.BAD but instead updates the bad block table at the end of the disk; /REPLACE overwrites the table, whereas REPLACE:RETAIN adds to it. Note that the DL(X) drivers in RT-11, as in other DEC OSs, know about the bad block table. But of course you wouldn't use INIT just before making a backup ;-) And it wouldn't work if your controller lies and returns zeros for bad blocks; that would be a very bad idea and will cause things to fail badly. The SQUEEZE command compresses a disk by shuffling up all the files (except FILE.BAD) to be contiguous (RT-11 always writes individual files as contiguous blocks on disk but gaps between files can arise as things are deleted or rewritten). It honours the bad block table (and/or FILE.BAD), as do other disk utilities, because the drivers do that. If your driver doesn't, it'll fail. If you just want to quickly scan a disk for errors, a common way is to do COPY/DEV/IGN DLx: NL: which does a block for block copy of the entire disk to the NULL device, reporting errors but not stopping on them (/COPY/DEVICE/IGNORE). It's common to do that just after formatting a disk, but before INIT, for example if you're working with a non-RT-11 filesystem. BTW, for other COPY operations, it ignores FILE.BAD files, for obvious reasons, unless you specifically include them. You were probably thinking of the DIR command. /BAD is also an option to DIR; it can tell also you which files are affected by bad blocks. It scans the entire disk for bad blocks, and even works on non-RT-11 disks. If it finds any, it will report the block number in octal and decimal, and tell you if it's "Replaced" or "Replaceable" - ie if it's already in the bad block table - but it won't change the table for you. The full syntax is DIRECTORY/BADBLOCKS[/FILES][/START:n][/END:n]. /FILES will tell you what files are affected, assuming it's an RT-11 filesystem; /START and /END allow you specify a range rather than the whole disk. There's also a /WAIT option that pauses to let you change disks before scanning. BACKUP (or BUP) scans the target disk for bad blocks before copying a saveset to it (and stops if it finds any). You can't FORMAT an RL01 or RL02, but you can FORMAT/VERIFY:ONLY one. That writes patterns over the surface to test it, much more thoroughly than DIR/BAD, INIT/BAD, COPY/DEV or BACKUP. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 7 08:14:18 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 14:14:18 +0100 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2015 11:21, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Sp, to get to the meat of it. No, bad blocks are not replaced, or mapped > away, or faked. The drive and controller can detect bad blocks, and when > you try to read one, you'll get an error back. Drivers try a few times, > and then give up, giving an error back to the user program. > You should not try anything different. Absolutely. > Copying RL disks with a block by block copy is not something you'd do. > You'd mount the disk and copy the contents. Actually COPY/DEV under RT-11 is commonly used, especially for non-RT-11 packs. I can't remember what RSX does, but RT-11 /does/ deal with the bad block table, by not copying the last track, and copying remapped blocks. But in general, under other OSs, yes, not a good idea. It would be like using dd in Unix to copy an entire device, including the disk label, rather than the partitions. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 7 08:24:30 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 14:24:30 +0100 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <5523D064.3040305@dunnington.plus.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523D064.3040305@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5523DA8E.9030908@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2015 13:41, Pete Turnbull wrote: > The SQUEEZE command [...] honours the bad block table (and/or > FILE.BAD), as do other disk utilities, because the drivers do that. Actually, thinking about it, SQUEEZE probably does it itself, and the drivers probably just do error reporting. I think. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 7 09:58:36 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 15:58:36 +0100 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5523F09C.5000900@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2015 11:21, Johnny Billquist wrote: > The STD144 reserves the last track of the device for pack information. > In there you have the pack serial number, and also the manufacturer bad > block list, and also the user bad block list. While looking for something quite unrelated, I noticed that the RT-11 Device Handlers Manual says slightly differently. The user list is stored, merged with the manufacturing list, in the home block (track 0 sector 1) of RL01/02 and RK06/07 volumes, beginning at offset 6 (HB.BAD). The actual replacement blocks are reserved space on the second last track (or tracks 0,1 of the last cylinder on RK06/7). The symbol names for the values in HB.BAD are defined in the .BBRDF macro in the distributed file SYSTEM.MLB. Offset Name Meaning 0 BBR.BD Bad block number. 2 BBR.GD Replacement block number. BBR.SZ Entry size. RSX-11 may not be the same? -- Pete Pete Turnbull From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 7 10:25:03 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 11:25:03 -0400 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <5523D064.3040305@dunnington.plus.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523D064.3040305@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 7, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 06/04/2015 23:54, Christopher Parish wrote: >> Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete >> operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access >> (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the >> controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). > > Very good! I want one :-) > >> The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. >> Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what >> to do with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I >> could skip the sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all >> zeros for the sector. > > > The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will > > not work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. > > DEC does it by having the driver software remap sectors. No, DEC does not do that. At least not in RSX, as Johnny described, nor in RSTS. In RSTS, creating a file system on a pack is done with the ?dskint? utility. One of its functions is to perform a drive scan, writing and verifying all sectors with several data patterns. If a sector is found to be bad, it is handled simply by allocating it to the reserved file [0,1]badb.sys. This scheme works for all drive types, including those that predate DEC Std 144. On packs that have a bad block table, the blocks listed in that table are includes in the bad block list that dskint determines (I don?t remember if they are checked anyway, or bypassed in the check). I also don?t remember if there was a way to handle blocks going bad later. In principle, yes; they could be allocated to badb.sys also. If so, a file system check (?onlcln?) would find a double allocated block and let you delete the file that was affected. The first drive type I know of that had anything resembling remapping is the RM80, with the ?skip sector? feature, where each track had an extra sector, and a flag in the sector header could be used to mark that sector as ?skip me and use the spare sector instead?. The first real remapping appeared in MSCP, which makes sense because that is the first time that DEC drives used logical addressing instead of hard cylinder/track/head addressing. At first (UDA50), remapping was done largely in the driver, requiring a quantity of code way larger than any other disk driver. In subsequent MSCP controllers, it moved entirely into the controller and the host simply saw an error free logical block space. Given all this, an image copy of a disk is not valid, unless the destination disk is error free. (Early packs usually were, which is why early PDP11 backup programs like ROLLIN did use image copy.) If the destination disk has errors, the copying has to be at the file system level, either by just copying all files one by one, or by doing an image copy that works around destination flaws. The RSTS standalone backup program SAVRES is an example of the latter. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 7 10:56:34 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 17:56:34 +0200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-07 15:14, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/04/2015 11:21, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Sp, to get to the meat of it. No, bad blocks are not replaced, or mapped >> away, or faked. The drive and controller can detect bad blocks, and when >> you try to read one, you'll get an error back. Drivers try a few times, >> and then give up, giving an error back to the user program. >> You should not try anything different. > > Absolutely. > >> Copying RL disks with a block by block copy is not something you'd do. >> You'd mount the disk and copy the contents. > > Actually COPY/DEV under RT-11 is commonly used, especially for non-RT-11 > packs. I can't remember what RSX does, but RT-11 /does/ deal with the > bad block table, by not copying the last track, and copying remapped > blocks. But that don't make sense. You cannot just move one block somewhere else because it is bad on the target device. Or just ignore a block because it is bad on the source device. And "remapped" must be something very local to RT-11. RSX do not remap any blocks. A block that is bad, is bad. It is still there. No other block is substituted for the bad block. And where would those substitution blocks come from? There are no hidden extra blocks on an RL pack. RSX simply deals with bad blocks on an RL pack by making sure no file accidentally gets them, by putting all the bad blocks into a specific file on the file system, intended to hold bad blocks. > But in general, under other OSs, yes, not a good idea. It > would be like using dd in Unix to copy an entire device, including the > disk label, rather than the partitions. Yes. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 7 10:59:04 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 17:59:04 +0200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <5523F09C.5000900@dunnington.plus.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523F09C.5000900@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5523FEC8.2070308@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-07 16:58, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/04/2015 11:21, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> The STD144 reserves the last track of the device for pack information. >> In there you have the pack serial number, and also the manufacturer bad >> block list, and also the user bad block list. > > While looking for something quite unrelated, I noticed that the RT-11 > Device Handlers Manual says slightly differently. The user list is > stored, merged with the manufacturing list, in the home block (track 0 > sector 1) of RL01/02 and RK06/07 volumes, beginning at offset 6 > (HB.BAD). The actual replacement blocks are reserved space on the > second last track (or tracks 0,1 of the last cylinder on RK06/7). > > The symbol names for the values in HB.BAD are defined in the .BBRDF > macro in the distributed file SYSTEM.MLB. > Offset Name Meaning > 0 BBR.BD Bad block number. > 2 BBR.GD Replacement block number. > BBR.SZ Entry size. > > RSX-11 may not be the same? You are thinking of/referring to how the file system works. The bad block list on the last track is not directly used by the system, since this is different from one device to the next. RL drives have bad block information on the last track. It is not OS dependent. Johnny From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 7 12:21:55 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 18:21:55 +0100 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523D064.3040305@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <55241233.3060708@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2015 16:25, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Apr 7, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Pete Turnbull >> wrote: >> DEC does it by having the driver software remap sectors. > > No, DEC does not do that. At least not in RSX, as Johnny described, > nor in RSTS. I worded it poorly. The driver provides the data to remap blocks, but doesn't necessarily use a replacement when it gets an error. As I wrote elsewhere, there are two mechanisms: the files called FILE.BAD being analogous to the file BADBLK.SYS in RSX, and the bad block substitution table in the home block which is used when you perform normal file operations - and which only exists for devices such as RL01/02 and RK06/07, and is stored in the driver's memory-resident tables. I don't know in detail how substitution happens, but in RT-11, it does. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 7 12:21:53 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 18:21:53 +0100 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2015 16:56, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-04-07 15:14, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Actually COPY/DEV under RT-11 is commonly used, especially for non-RT-11 >> packs. I can't remember what RSX does, but RT-11 /does/ deal with the >> bad block table, by not copying the last track, and copying remapped >> blocks. > > But that don't make sense. You cannot just move one block somewhere else > because it is bad on the target device. Or just ignore a block because > it is bad on the source device. Nevertheless, what I wrote is what RT-11 COPY does. > And "remapped" must be something very local to RT-11. RSX do not remap > any blocks. A block that is bad, is bad. It is still there. Well, yes, it's still bad, and still there, but all the RT-11 utilities use the substitute block. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 7 12:21:53 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 18:21:53 +0100 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <5523FEC8.2070308@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523F09C.5000900@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FEC8.2070308@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55241231.6000108@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2015 16:59, Johnny Billquist wrote: > You are thinking of/referring to how the file system works. The bad > block list on the last track is not directly used by the system, since > this is different from one device to the next. > RL drives have bad block information on the last track. It is not OS > dependent. No, but how it's used is possibly OS dependent, as I wrote. As far as I can tell, only the /manufacturing/ bad block data is stored in the last track. RT-11 copies that to the home block, merged with any other bad block information found later, and uses what's in the home block. That means whatever reads or writes the disk has to fetch the bad block data from the home block (the DL.SYS driver stores that in memory while it's resident, and updates it when it knows a pack is changed). Of course here we're only talking about RL01/02 and other drives that have such a table. Maybe it's different for RSX; I don't know enough about the innards of RSX to say, hence my question, "RSX-11 may not be the same?" But I think Paul has provided me the answer. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 7 12:35:43 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 13:35:43 -0400 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 7, 2015, at 1:21 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 07/04/2015 16:56, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-04-07 15:14, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> Actually COPY/DEV under RT-11 is commonly used, especially for non-RT-11 >>> packs. I can't remember what RSX does, but RT-11 /does/ deal with the >>> bad block table, by not copying the last track, and copying remapped >>> blocks. >> >> But that don't make sense. You cannot just move one block somewhere else >> because it is bad on the target device. Or just ignore a block because >> it is bad on the source device. > > Nevertheless, what I wrote is what RT-11 COPY does. > >> And "remapped" must be something very local to RT-11. RSX do not remap >> any blocks. A block that is bad, is bad. It is still there. > > Well, yes, it's still bad, and still there, but all the RT-11 utilities use the substitute block. That certainly makes sense for RT-11. After all, it uses a file structure in which all files are contiguous. So the ?mark them and avoid them? technique doesn?t work well, it means a 200 block free region with a single bad block centered in it would be unuseable for allocating a 101 block file. So remapping selected block addresses to spares at the driver level (just below the file system) would avoid that. In a sense, this amounts to a two-layer file system: the familiar one on top, and a thin address translation layer below it. From the point of view of image copy, both layers are file system. So a full pack image copy would be invalid for RT-11 just as it is invalid for other operating systems. A structure aware image copy (akin to RSTS SAVRES) could be done easily: essentially that would mean copying the address space as seen at the top of the remap layer. So the remap tables for the source and destination volumes would differ, but the conventional file system (directory etc.) would be the same for both. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 7 13:26:17 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 20:26:17 +0200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-07 19:21, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/04/2015 16:56, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-04-07 15:14, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> Actually COPY/DEV under RT-11 is commonly used, especially for non-RT-11 >>> packs. I can't remember what RSX does, but RT-11 /does/ deal with the >>> bad block table, by not copying the last track, and copying remapped >>> blocks. >> >> But that don't make sense. You cannot just move one block somewhere else >> because it is bad on the target device. Or just ignore a block because >> it is bad on the source device. > > Nevertheless, what I wrote is what RT-11 COPY does. > >> And "remapped" must be something very local to RT-11. RSX do not remap >> any blocks. A block that is bad, is bad. It is still there. > > Well, yes, it's still bad, and still there, but all the RT-11 utilities > use the substitute block. So COPY/DEV is essentially only usable for opying RT-11 disks on RT-11 systems. :-) Nothing wrong with that, mind you. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 7 13:38:33 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 20:38:33 +0200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <55241231.6000108@dunnington.plus.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523F09C.5000900@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FEC8.2070308@update.uu.se> <55241231.6000108@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <55242429.1040201@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-07 19:21, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/04/2015 16:59, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> You are thinking of/referring to how the file system works. The bad >> block list on the last track is not directly used by the system, since >> this is different from one device to the next. >> RL drives have bad block information on the last track. It is not OS >> dependent. > > No, but how it's used is possibly OS dependent, as I wrote. As far as I > can tell, only the /manufacturing/ bad block data is stored in the last > track. RT-11 copies that to the home block, merged with any other bad > block information found later, and uses what's in the home block. That > means whatever reads or writes the disk has to fetch the bad block data > from the home block (the DL.SYS driver stores that in memory while it's > resident, and updates it when it knows a pack is changed). Of course > here we're only talking about RL01/02 and other drives that have such a > table. > > Maybe it's different for RSX; I don't know enough about the innards of > RSX to say, hence my question, "RSX-11 may not be the same?" But I > think Paul has provided me the answer. How it is used is definitely OS dependent, but the information is as I described. See "RL01 RL02 Disk Subsystem Users Guide". Section 1.5 Bad Sector File, page 1-6 to 1-8. (http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/EK-RL012-UG-004_RL01_RL02_Disk_Subsystem_Users_Guide_Oct80.pdf) 5 copies of the factory written bad sector info, and 5 copies of the field written bad sector info. Now, RT-11 might not be using the information right, I wouldn't know. I think that any Unix system definitely did not use the information right. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 7 13:42:12 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 20:42:12 +0200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <55241233.3060708@dunnington.plus.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523D064.3040305@dunnington.plus.com> <55241233.3060708@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <55242504.6080007@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-07 19:21, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/04/2015 16:25, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Apr 7, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Pete Turnbull >>> wrote: > >>> DEC does it by having the driver software remap sectors. >> >> No, DEC does not do that. At least not in RSX, as Johnny described, >> nor in RSTS. > > I worded it poorly. The driver provides the data to remap blocks, but > doesn't necessarily use a replacement when it gets an error. As I wrote > elsewhere, there are two mechanisms: the files called FILE.BAD being > analogous to the file BADBLK.SYS in RSX, and the bad block substitution > table in the home block which is used when you perform normal file > operations - and which only exists for devices such as RL01/02 and > RK06/07, and is stored in the driver's memory-resident tables. I don't > know in detail how substitution happens, but in RT-11, it does. This sounds identical to how OS/8 does it. It essentially treats the RL disks as have a few less blocks than they have. And then the actual block numbers are contiguous, but any bad blocks are skipped over in the device driver. So at the file system level, it appears as if the device have no bad blocks. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 7 14:01:34 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 21:01:34 +0200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <55241231.6000108@dunnington.plus.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523F09C.5000900@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FEC8.2070308@update.uu.se> <55241231.6000108@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5524298E.6040207@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-07 19:21, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/04/2015 16:59, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> You are thinking of/referring to how the file system works. The bad >> block list on the last track is not directly used by the system, since >> this is different from one device to the next. >> RL drives have bad block information on the last track. It is not OS >> dependent. > > No, but how it's used is possibly OS dependent, as I wrote. As far as I > can tell, only the /manufacturing/ bad block data is stored in the last > track. RT-11 copies that to the home block, merged with any other bad > block information found later, and uses what's in the home block. That > means whatever reads or writes the disk has to fetch the bad block data > from the home block (the DL.SYS driver stores that in memory while it's > resident, and updates it when it knows a pack is changed). Of course > here we're only talking about RL01/02 and other drives that have such a > table. > > Maybe it's different for RSX; I don't know enough about the innards of > RSX to say, hence my question, "RSX-11 may not be the same?" But I > think Paul has provided me the answer. How it is used is definitely OS dependent, but the information is as I described. See "RL01 RL02 Disk Subsystem Users Guide". Section 1.5 Bad Sector File, page 1-6 to 1-8. (http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/EK-RL012-UG-004_RL01_RL02_Disk_Subsystem_Users_Guide_Oct80.pdf) 5 copies of the factory written bad sector info, and 5 copies of the field written bad sector info. Now, RT-11 might not be using the information right, I wouldn't know. I think that any Unix system definitely did not use the information right. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 7 14:01:42 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 21:01:42 +0200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <55241233.3060708@dunnington.plus.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523D064.3040305@dunnington.plus.com> <55241233.3060708@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <55242996.8030709@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-07 19:21, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/04/2015 16:25, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Apr 7, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Pete Turnbull >>> wrote: > >>> DEC does it by having the driver software remap sectors. >> >> No, DEC does not do that. At least not in RSX, as Johnny described, >> nor in RSTS. > > I worded it poorly. The driver provides the data to remap blocks, but > doesn't necessarily use a replacement when it gets an error. As I wrote > elsewhere, there are two mechanisms: the files called FILE.BAD being > analogous to the file BADBLK.SYS in RSX, and the bad block substitution > table in the home block which is used when you perform normal file > operations - and which only exists for devices such as RL01/02 and > RK06/07, and is stored in the driver's memory-resident tables. I don't > know in detail how substitution happens, but in RT-11, it does. This sounds identical to how OS/8 does it. It essentially treats the RL disks as have a few less blocks than they have. And then the actual block numbers are contiguous, but any bad blocks are skipped over in the device driver. So at the file system level, it appears as if the device have no bad blocks. Johnny From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 7 13:54:20 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 19:54:20 +0100 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <552427DC.3030602@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2015 19:26, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Well, yes, it's still bad, and still there, but all the RT-11 utilities >> use the substitute block. > > So COPY/DEV is essentially only usable for opying RT-11 disks on RT-11 > systems. :-) > Nothing wrong with that, mind you. Well, no, actually; I've been using it (under RT-11 V5.7) to copy other OS disks (mainly 7th Edition Unix) because it does that perfectly well :-) When the DL.SYS driver sees a disk changed, it reads the manufacturing defect list so it's still good to copy most disks. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 7 14:25:07 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 21:25:07 +0200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <552427DC.3030602@dunnington.plus.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> <552427DC.3030602@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <55242F13.9040605@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-07 20:54, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/04/2015 19:26, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> Well, yes, it's still bad, and still there, but all the RT-11 utilities >>> use the substitute block. >> >> So COPY/DEV is essentially only usable for opying RT-11 disks on RT-11 >> systems. :-) >> Nothing wrong with that, mind you. > > Well, no, actually; I've been using it (under RT-11 V5.7) to copy other > OS disks (mainly 7th Edition Unix) because it does that perfectly well > :-) When the DL.SYS driver sees a disk changed, it reads the > manufacturing defect list so it's still good to copy most disks. But since the 7th edition Unix most likely do not treat the bad blocks the same way as RT-11 does (skipping bad blocks), that means blocks will get renumbered, and 7th edition will end up with a very corrupt and broken file system. Essentially, this will only work well if you don't have any bad blocks on the device. Just because you have a manufacturer bad block list on the disk, that does not mean that different OSes handle the disk the same way. Let me give you a very silly example. Let's say we have a file system where each disk block points to the next disk block in a file, and that the OS address each disk block in an absolute manner. Bad blocks do not affect the block numbering. Let's then say that we have the following 5 blocks: Block # Content n: n+1 n+1: n+3 n+2: n+3: n+4 n+4: 0 (EOF) Now, if RT treats this as skipping over the bad blocks, it would skip n+2, while n+3 would on the target device become n+2. However, block n+1 still points to n+3, so now we skip over one block of the file. Which means we corrupted the disk. I could create a whole bunch of similar scenarios, but I'm sure you can too. :-) Johnny From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 7 14:58:55 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 15:58:55 -0400 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <55242F13.9040605@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> <552427DC.3030602@dunnington.plus.com> <55242F13.9040605@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <1F7FCBFE-21F6-4ACF-8651-2C9F12EC8CCF@comcast.net> > On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-04-07 20:54, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 07/04/2015 19:26, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> Well, yes, it's still bad, and still there, but all the RT-11 utilities >>>> use the substitute block. >>> >>> So COPY/DEV is essentially only usable for opying RT-11 disks on RT-11 >>> systems. :-) >>> Nothing wrong with that, mind you. >> >> Well, no, actually; I've been using it (under RT-11 V5.7) to copy other >> OS disks (mainly 7th Edition Unix) because it does that perfectly well >> :-) When the DL.SYS driver sees a disk changed, it reads the >> manufacturing defect list so it's still good to copy most disks. > > But since the 7th edition Unix most likely do not treat the bad blocks the same way as RT-11 does (skipping bad blocks), that means blocks will get renumbered, and 7th edition will end up with a very corrupt and broken file system. > Essentially, this will only work well if you don't have any bad blocks on the device. Not necessarily. I don?t know the RT11 details, but suppose it works this way: a few blocks at the end are spares. All good blocks have their native address. All bad blocks are redirected to one of the spares. If so, some other file system, one that avoids the bad blocks, will work fine. All good blocks are where expected. The bad blocks aren?t, but those aren?t in use. The only trouble would be if the spare region is actually used for data. If it?s free, then you?re basically ok. paul From north at alum.mit.edu Tue Apr 7 15:06:27 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 13:06:27 -0700 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <55242F13.9040605@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> <552427DC.3030602@dunnington.plus.com> <55242F13.9040605@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <552438C3.4010405@alum.mit.edu> On 4/7/2015 12:25 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-04-07 20:54, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 07/04/2015 19:26, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> Well, yes, it's still bad, and still there, but all the RT-11 utilities >>>> use the substitute block. >>> >>> So COPY/DEV is essentially only usable for opying RT-11 disks on RT-11 >>> systems. :-) >>> Nothing wrong with that, mind you. >> >> Well, no, actually; I've been using it (under RT-11 V5.7) to copy other >> OS disks (mainly 7th Edition Unix) because it does that perfectly well >> :-) When the DL.SYS driver sees a disk changed, it reads the >> manufacturing defect list so it's still good to copy most disks. > > But since the 7th edition Unix most likely do not treat the bad blocks the > same way as RT-11 does (skipping bad blocks), that means blocks will get > renumbered, and 7th edition will end up with a very corrupt and broken file > system. > Essentially, this will only work well if you don't have any bad blocks on the > device. > > Just because you have a manufacturer bad block list on the disk, that does not > mean that different OSes handle the disk the same way. > > Let me give you a very silly example. > Let's say we have a file system where each disk block points to the next disk > block in a file, and that the OS address each disk block in an absolute > manner. Bad blocks do not affect the block numbering. > > Let's then say that we have the following 5 blocks: > > Block # Content > n: n+1 > n+1: n+3 > n+2: > n+3: n+4 > n+4: 0 (EOF) > > Now, if RT treats this as skipping over the bad blocks, it would skip n+2, > while n+3 would on the target device become n+2. However, block n+1 still > points to n+3, so now we skip over one block of the file. Which means we > corrupted the disk. > > I could create a whole bunch of similar scenarios, but I'm sure you can too. :-) > > Johnny > I don't see any way that bad blocks can just be skipped over in the numbering system. This would mean you had no reasonable way of doing random block access to the RL0x device without some type of lookup table. RL0x does head/cylinder/sector addressing, so a direct block address could be decomposed into a specific H/C/S by a simple set of equations. If you throw skipping arbitrary bad sectors in the mix this no longer works. So I see that replacement of bad sectors inline (using the '144 mapping table and data) as the only reasonable approach. My opinion of course. From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 7 15:08:09 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 22:08:09 +0200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <1F7FCBFE-21F6-4ACF-8651-2C9F12EC8CCF@comcast.net> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> <552427DC.3030602@dunnington.plus.com> <55242F13.9040605@update.uu.se> <1F7FCBFE-21F6-4ACF-8651-2C9F12EC8CCF@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55243929.2050304@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-07 21:58, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-04-07 20:54, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> On 07/04/2015 19:26, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>>> Well, yes, it's still bad, and still there, but all the RT-11 utilities >>>>> use the substitute block. >>>> >>>> So COPY/DEV is essentially only usable for opying RT-11 disks on RT-11 >>>> systems. :-) >>>> Nothing wrong with that, mind you. >>> >>> Well, no, actually; I've been using it (under RT-11 V5.7) to copy other >>> OS disks (mainly 7th Edition Unix) because it does that perfectly well >>> :-) When the DL.SYS driver sees a disk changed, it reads the >>> manufacturing defect list so it's still good to copy most disks. >> >> But since the 7th edition Unix most likely do not treat the bad blocks the same way as RT-11 does (skipping bad blocks), that means blocks will get renumbered, and 7th edition will end up with a very corrupt and broken file system. >> Essentially, this will only work well if you don't have any bad blocks on the device. > > Not necessarily. I don?t know the RT11 details, but suppose it works this way: a few blocks at the end are spares. All good blocks have their native address. All bad blocks are redirected to one of the spares. > > If so, some other file system, one that avoids the bad blocks, will work fine. All good blocks are where expected. The bad blocks aren?t, but those aren?t in use. The only trouble would be if the spare region is actually used for data. If it?s free, then you?re basically ok. Heh! Yeah, well, I guess you could get lucky if someone did that scheme. But then you would also need to mainain a map of replacement blocks somewhere, and all accesses would have to lookup that table before doing any access to a block, which would be rather costly... MSCP essentially does this, but it has special provisions for it, to make it more effective. In essence, you normally do not lookup into that table for a block access. Instead you do the lookup only if a read/write actually fails, or if the bad block bit is set in the sector header, marking that this block actually have a replacement. And in that case, you might also not need to go through the lookup table, if in fact you did manage to get data out of the block, as the block contents will also have the replacement block information written there. So, while your scenario is totally possible, it is unlikely to have been implemented. I don't know exactly how RT-11 do it, but in OS/8 it is pretty simple. You have a block # you want to read, and a sorted bad block list. You run through the list, and for every entry, if your block # if greater than the bad block #, you increment your block # by one. It is rather costly, but on a PDP-8, you don't really care. All code runs without interrupts, and the badblock list is limited to what can fit in a table inside the device driver. And PDP-8s have such a simple system that this extra overhead isn't hurting much. (In essence, OS/8 code don't care about cycles, they care about words used.) And on average, I would guess you only need to search half the list. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 7 15:11:18 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 22:11:18 +0200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <552438C3.4010405@alum.mit.edu> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> <552427DC.3030602@dunnington.plus.com> <55242F13.9040605@update.uu.se> <552438C3.4010405@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <552439E6.8000306@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-07 22:06, Don North wrote: > On 4/7/2015 12:25 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-04-07 20:54, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> On 07/04/2015 19:26, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>>> Well, yes, it's still bad, and still there, but all the RT-11 >>>>> utilities >>>>> use the substitute block. >>>> >>>> So COPY/DEV is essentially only usable for opying RT-11 disks on RT-11 >>>> systems. :-) >>>> Nothing wrong with that, mind you. >>> >>> Well, no, actually; I've been using it (under RT-11 V5.7) to copy other >>> OS disks (mainly 7th Edition Unix) because it does that perfectly well >>> :-) When the DL.SYS driver sees a disk changed, it reads the >>> manufacturing defect list so it's still good to copy most disks. >> >> But since the 7th edition Unix most likely do not treat the bad blocks >> the same way as RT-11 does (skipping bad blocks), that means blocks >> will get renumbered, and 7th edition will end up with a very corrupt >> and broken file system. >> Essentially, this will only work well if you don't have any bad blocks >> on the device. >> >> Just because you have a manufacturer bad block list on the disk, that >> does not mean that different OSes handle the disk the same way. >> >> Let me give you a very silly example. >> Let's say we have a file system where each disk block points to the >> next disk block in a file, and that the OS address each disk block in >> an absolute manner. Bad blocks do not affect the block numbering. >> >> Let's then say that we have the following 5 blocks: >> >> Block # Content >> n: n+1 >> n+1: n+3 >> n+2: >> n+3: n+4 >> n+4: 0 (EOF) >> >> Now, if RT treats this as skipping over the bad blocks, it would skip >> n+2, while n+3 would on the target device become n+2. However, block >> n+1 still points to n+3, so now we skip over one block of the file. >> Which means we corrupted the disk. >> >> I could create a whole bunch of similar scenarios, but I'm sure you >> can too. :-) >> >> Johnny >> > > I don't see any way that bad blocks can just be skipped over in the > numbering system. This would mean you had no reasonable way of doing > random block access to the RL0x device without some type of lookup table. > > RL0x does head/cylinder/sector addressing, so a direct block address > could be decomposed into a specific H/C/S by a simple set of equations. > If you throw skipping arbitrary bad sectors in the mix this no longer > works. > > So I see that replacement of bad sectors inline (using the '144 mapping > table and data) as the only reasonable approach. > > My opinion of course. I just posted an answer to Paul explaining how OS/8 does exactly this: skip over bad blocks. It's actually not hard at all, and less costly than a lookup table. But anyway, this is all theoretical. Unix do not have any such schemes. It essentially do the same things we've been talking about. When you find a bad block, you actually create a file containing that block, so that nothing else will accidentally use it later. So it's not hidden or remapped in any way. Johnny From pete at hollobon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 03:23:30 2015 From: pete at hollobon.co.uk (Pete Hollobon) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 09:23:30 +0100 Subject: Sun 19" Monochrome Monitor (Model M / M01) Message-ID: Hi, I have a Sun 19" monochrome Model M monitor to give away. I have no idea if it works - it made a fizzing noise upon applying briefly applying power so probably needs at least some work. I used to use it on a 3/60 which I no longer have. Made in USA SvCd: M01 Part#: 365-1014-01 Model: M Ser: 848F1051 Date: 29-nov-88 ElecRatings: 100-120/200-240ACV 50/60Hz 1.6/1.0A I have a couple of photos if anyone's interested. Free of charge. Collection only, from Sutton, south-west London, UK. It'll be off to the dump on Saturday if no interest by then. Pete. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 7 14:37:19 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 20:37:19 +0100 Subject: RD54 Stopped Spinning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Andrea. This is always something to look out for. However, in this case, looking at the XT-1140 schematic that was posted earlier in this thread, there do not seem to be any capacitors in this area. I have ordered some replacement transistors and I will try them on another drive first. Regards Rob On 7 April 2015 at 07:20, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > apart from the transistors, I would check for some bad capacitor. > The analog part with the sensors needs quite clean supply to work good, > while the motor itself is a big source of spikes and pulses. > Possibly there could be some supply filter, with electrolytic capacitors > not working as expected due to age... or with excessive current leakage. > > Andrea > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 07:43:05 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 00:43:05 +1200 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF0132@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF0132@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 12:13 AM, Christopher Parish wrote: > I will have to patch SIMH to support this paradigm because right now it expects the backing store for its virtual RL02s to be readable at all times. IO errors trying to access the underlying "file" halt the simulator. Additionally, there is no way to report what type of error occurred via USB mass storage, only that fewer blocks were returned than expected. Well, you *can* pass *anything* over USB; it depends entirely on how the system is architected... > I think I'll need to have two completely different modes of operation. I respectfully disagree. To my way of thinking, this is indeed a SIMH issue, since it was never architected to handle real hardware; it was only ever conceived to handle virtual devices, and the design decisions that were made for that goal were appropriate. In the SIMH worldview, bad blocks should simply never occur, so the guest OS all never be exposed to them, and device drivers can be written without taking them into account beyond the simple 'help, the world's gone screwy, I quit' if a disk request has an unexpected outcome. Now you're moving the goalposts. I see no reason not to fork SIMH and simply patch the RL device driver to do exactly what the hardware does and pass errors through to the guest OS for it to deal with. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com Tue Apr 7 12:00:43 2015 From: microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com (Shaun Halstead) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 12:00:43 -0500 Subject: Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) In-Reply-To: <2747195F-0DE1-46FF-86A0-8342435A3C63@gmail.com> References: <09235ba61ec5107796c60eec9016b739@saracom.com> <2747195F-0DE1-46FF-86A0-8342435A3C63@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55240D3B.2070305@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> On 04/06/2015 08:06 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > I have a PDP 11/23+ I'm attempting to bring up and discovered why I wasn't getting anywhere- a metal screw had gotten into the supply shorting *something* on the supply PCB. I'm new to DEC equipment and I'm afraid this supply is beyond me. If someone has one for sale (this one marked H7861), please let me know. It looks serviceable and is likely repairable by an expert so that could be an option, too. > > Thanks, > Cory I have a pair of h786 (not 7861) power supplies sitting on the shelf. Both have the back panel switch box/line interface. Both line interfaces are marked 11/23-AX, with a change tag noting a change to 11/23-AA. I don't have a /23 to put them in for testing, but I might be able to build a simple resistor test rig. We're cleaning house, and they need to go. $75 each, or $125 for the pair. Shipping would be from Wichita, Ks, 67213. --Shaun Halstead Microfilm Services, Inc. From useddec at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 16:44:30 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 16:44:30 -0500 Subject: Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) In-Reply-To: <55240D3B.2070305@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> References: <09235ba61ec5107796c60eec9016b739@saracom.com> <2747195F-0DE1-46FF-86A0-8342435A3C63@gmail.com> <55240D3B.2070305@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> Message-ID: I think the main difference between the two is the H7861 Has a higher +5VDC current rating. I don't remember if they are plug compatible, but they should be. On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Shaun Halstead < microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com> wrote: > > On 04/06/2015 08:06 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > > I have a PDP 11/23+ I'm attempting to bring up and discovered why I > wasn't getting anywhere- a metal screw had gotten into the supply shorting > *something* on the supply PCB. I'm new to DEC equipment and I'm afraid this > supply is beyond me. If someone has one for sale (this one marked H7861), > please let me know. It looks serviceable and is likely repairable by an > expert so that could be an option, too. > > > > Thanks, > > Cory > > I have a pair of h786 (not 7861) power supplies sitting on the shelf. > Both have the back panel > switch box/line interface. Both line interfaces are marked 11/23-AX, with > a change tag noting a > change to 11/23-AA. I don't have a /23 to put them in for testing, but I > might be able to build a > simple resistor test rig. We're cleaning house, and they need to go. $75 > each, or $125 for the > pair. Shipping would be from Wichita, Ks, 67213. > > --Shaun Halstead > Microfilm Services, Inc. > From isking at uw.edu Tue Apr 7 19:02:05 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 17:02:05 -0700 Subject: HP 2640B badge? Message-ID: Hi all, I recently picked up an HP 2640B (thanks, Josh!) and I'm restoring it. The keyboard cable was cut - but the mainframe end was thrown away - but I found a printer cable that uses the same connector, and I don't have a printer adapter for it. It has bad screen mold, but I have A Plan - I'm going to try soaking the face of the CRT face-down in acetone, to see if it will dissolve/loosen the offending adhesive. It's also missing the badge plate: that part behind the keyboard and below the screen that has the HP logo and the terminal name. Is there a chance anyone out there has a parts-beast 2640B and would part with that badge plate? In the alternative, maybe take some really good photos so I can have one of my friends with a 3D printer make the badge bits, which I can fasten to something Close Enough for Folk Music? I plan to hook this up to my HP-1000 - I also picked up a HP-IB cable so I can connect the -1000 to a (real) floppy or (emulated) hard disk. Fun stuff! -- Ian PS: I'll be at VCF/e next week. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 21:39:38 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 19:39:38 -0700 Subject: HP 2640B badge? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > Hi all, > > It's also missing the badge plate: that part behind the keyboard and below > the screen that has the HP logo and the terminal name. Is there a chance > anyone out there has a parts-beast 2640B and would part with that badge > plate? Is the thing you want on the terminal or on the keyboard? I have some 2645A (some with CTU and some without) and one or two 2640B, beastly screen mold included but no extra keyboards. From isking at uw.edu Wed Apr 8 01:15:52 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 23:15:52 -0700 Subject: HP 2640B badge? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Glen, it's the piece on the front of the terminal. It's maybe 2-3" tall and the width of the screen. On Apr 7, 2015 7:40 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > It's also missing the badge plate: that part behind the keyboard and > below > > the screen that has the HP logo and the terminal name. Is there a chance > > anyone out there has a parts-beast 2640B and would part with that badge > > plate? > > Is the thing you want on the terminal or on the keyboard? I have some > 2645A (some with CTU and some without) and one or two 2640B, beastly > screen mold included but no extra keyboards. > From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 01:50:19 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 08:50:19 +0200 Subject: VAX-11/750 power supplies Message-ID: I am working on the H7104 power supplies for the VAX-11/750 now. The 5V had a short circuit main switch transistor and a output rectifier diode that also was a short circuit. Now it works fine into a 0.5 ohm dummy load. Then when checking the 2.5V supply it had two out of three output rectifiers short circuited. So what is it with these rectifiers? They are Unitrode USD5096F but unfortunately I cannot find any data sheet for them. I asked in another forum and someone even checked the Unitrode data book for 84-85 but didn't find the part! However looking in the print set the diode is listed as 1114197-00 with the remark "60 AMP POWER SCHOTTKY DIODE" Is the Unitrode USD5096F a 60 Amp diode? This link tells me it is a 35A diode: http://www.electronicsurplus.com/unitrode-usd5096f-diode-35amp-35v-piv and so does this link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/35-Amp-35-Volt-Stud-Mounted-Diode-with-Wire-and-Lug-Wind-and-Solar-Blocking-/271653646843?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f3fd1b1fb Is there anyone that can enlighten me here? Is USD509F a 35 Amp part and then why have DEC used parts that is not as specified in the print set? /Mattis From supervinx at libero.it Wed Apr 8 02:50:00 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:50:00 +0200 Subject: Siemens FDD200 configuration Message-ID: Hi! Got two FDD200, 8" drives. I revised their config with the manual handy. They seem OK for my needs (reading soft sectored IBM disks) except for a thing. They are configured for radial selection but with dedicated SELECT lines for heads/side. The first disk responds to SELECT lines 0 and 2, respectively for HEAD 0 and 1. The second disk responds to SELECT lines 1 and 3, for HEAD 0 and 1. This can easily be reverted moving a soldered wire jumper. I'd like to know why they were configured that way. I'll use the FDADAP adapter, BTW. Thanks! From fulivi at tiscali.it Wed Apr 8 03:25:32 2015 From: fulivi at tiscali.it (F.Ulivi) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 10:25:32 +0200 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5524E5FC.6020705@tiscali.it> Sure it is! I checked this up in the manual where it explicitly says that masked ROMs (8041A) can be read with the same verification procedure as the EPROMs (without applying programming voltage, though). I probably was applying modern mindset to the question by assuming that back in the 1970s people were obssessed with protecting code from cloning as they are now... Unfortunately for me, this makes little difference as I have no chip to dump... :) Bye, -- F.Ulivi From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 8 06:28:00 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 12:28:00 +0100 Subject: settings for DEC M7506 (MSV11-M) Message-ID: <552510C0.1050204@dunnington.plus.com> Does anyone have a description of the switch settings for a QBus MSV11-M (aka MSV1M) memory card (M7506)? I have one that doesn't want to play, and I can't find the manual (EK-MSV1M-UG) or any useful notes anywhere. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 8 10:30:31 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 10:30:31 -0500 Subject: VAX-11/750 power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55254997.2080502@pico-systems.com> On 04/08/2015 01:50 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > However looking in the print set the diode is listed as 1114197-00 with the > remark "60 AMP POWER SCHOTTKY DIODE" > > Is the Unitrode USD5096F a 60 Amp diode? This link tells me it is a 35A > diode: > > http://www.electronicsurplus.com/unitrode-usd5096f-diode-35amp-35v-piv > and so does this link: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/35-Amp-35-Volt-Stud-Mounted-Diode-with-Wire-and-Lug-Wind-and-Solar-Blocking-/271653646843?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f3fd1b1fb > > Is there anyone that can enlighten me here? Is USD509F a 35 Amp part and > then why have DEC used parts that is not as specified in the print set? > > Notes written on the schematic are commonly a bit off. Depending on the peak to average ratio of the current and the temperature it is expected to operate at, you can get very different values. Typically, the manufacturer give hugely inflated ratings in their data sheets, and the OEM has to run them at much reduced ratings to get reliable operation. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 8 10:31:21 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 11:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) Message-ID: <20150408153121.34D9E18C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jacob Ritorto > 2) Assuming H7681, do you know how to wire a chassis that expects H768 > to work with H7681? Or vice versa? AFAIK, there is nothing to it. The backplane normally used with the H786, the H9273, has exactly the same kind of power connector as the one used with the H7861, the H9276 - a terminal block. The pinout is, IIRC, identical. There's also a duPont connector on a flat cable (10 or 12 pin, don't recall off the top of my head), which carries BPOK and things like that, and that also is has an identical pinout. And finally they are the exact same size and shape, with the same fasteners in the same locations. Hence my prior assertion that "have looked at both closely, and verified that they have the same interfaces and physical dimensions, etc, so I think this will work, but I have yet to actually try it [to absolutely verify it]". Although I've just noticed that the BA11-N (the H786/H9273) has an H403-A AC control box, and the BA11-S (the H7861/H9276) has an H403-B. I don't know what the difference is between the two: higher current rating, would be my guess, since the H786 puts out 15A of +5V, whereas the H7861 can do 36A. But no, the BA11-N says its max input is 12A at 120 VAC - although that includes powering an auxilliary AC outlet. The H756 P/S alone draws 5.5A; the H7561 is the exact same. (Wow, double the efficiency...) So the auxiliary outlet must be the difference - sure enough, the BA11-S doesn't have one. So I still think you're good to go! :-) Noel From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 8 11:21:36 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:21:36 -0700 Subject: Siemens FDD200 configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55255590.6070302@sydex.com> On 04/08/2015 12:50 AM, supervinx wrote: > Hi! Got two FDD200, 8" drives. I revised their config with the manual > handy. They seem OK for my needs (reading soft sectored IBM disks) > except for a thing. They are configured for radial selection but with > dedicated SELECT lines for heads/side. The first disk responds to > SELECT lines 0 and 2, respectively for HEAD 0 and 1. The second disk > responds to SELECT lines 1 and 3, for HEAD 0 and 1. This can easily > be reverted moving a soldered wire jumper. I'd like to know why they > were configured that way. I'll use the FDADAP adapter, BTW. Thanks! > The most likely explanation is that the controller used was most likely a single-sided one, with no separate head select line. (Recall that double-sided floppies arrived on the scene a few years after single-sided ones). So, the solution for double-sided floppies on a single-sided controller was to make a drive appear as two single-sided units. Not terribly uncommon. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 8 11:46:30 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 16:46:30 +0000 Subject: VAX-11/750 power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > However looking in the print set the diode is listed as 1114197-00 with the > remark "60 AMP POWER SCHOTTKY DIODE" > > Is the Unitrode USD5096F a 60 Amp diode? This link tells me it is a 35A > diode: > > http://www.electronicsurplus.com/unitrode-usd5096f-diode-35amp-35v-piv > and so does this link: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/35-Amp-35-Volt-Stud-Mounted-Diode-with-Wire-and-Lug-Wind-and-Solar-Blocking- > /271653646843?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f3fd1b1fb It's possible (although unlikely) that DEC selected diodes that could stand 60A for this location from what were nominally 35A parts. More likely, I think, is that what is _needed_ here is a 35A diode (what is the output current of this PSU) and that the originially specified part was a 60A one (which is clearly be OK). Then somebody found a 35A part that would work. Of course you can always fit a higher current diode than is strictly required (provide the switching times are fast enough in a circuit like this). My guess is that since diodes have improved since the days of the 11/750, you could fit modern 60A shottky diodes without problems. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 8 11:30:57 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:30:57 -0700 Subject: ISO Compaq ISA EGA card and monitor Message-ID: <552557C1.9010300@bitsavers.org> A situation came up where CHM wanted to film a Compaq Deskpro 386, but we didn't have one, so I've been trying to put a first generation system together (circa 1987), but I'm having trouble locating a Deskpro 386 keyboard, and Compaq EGA card and monitor. Does anyone have this kicking around? From ed at ryer.ru Wed Apr 8 07:19:03 2015 From: ed at ryer.ru (Edward Austin) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 13:19:03 +0100 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted Message-ID: Hi there I am based in the UK (Edinburgh) and have been seeking the last couple of years a working/non-working MicroPDP 11/23, 73 or 93 in preferably a BA-23, but anything definitely considered. These rarely come up on eBay (although I am tempted to by a working MicroPDP 11/73 in a BA-23 from eBay US for $1200, but shipping and taxes would make this at least 50% more). Any advice on sources of hardware in the UK/EU would be much appreciated. I really don't want to wait many more years simply because the rarity may mean I never get one. Also looking for a VAXStation 3100/9x model. Again hard to find in the UK. Many thanks Ed On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 6:00 PM, wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY - Taken > (keith at saracom.com) > 2. Re: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY - Taken (Paul Anderson) > 3. Looking for.... (Jay West) > 4. RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Christopher Parish) > 5. Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) (Cory Heisterkamp) > 6. Re: Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) (Noel Chiappa) > 7. Re: Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) (Jacob Ritorto) > 8. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Eric Smith) > 9. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Eric Smith) > 10. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Don North) > 11. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Don North) > 12. Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning (shadoooo) > 13. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Johnny Billquist) > 14. RE: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Christopher Parish) > 15. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Pete Turnbull) > 16. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Pete Turnbull) > 17. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Pete Turnbull) > 18. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Pete Turnbull) > 19. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Paul Koning) > 20. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Johnny Billquist) > 21. Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem (Johnny Billquist) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 13:20:22 -0400 > From: keith at saracom.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY - Taken > Message-ID: <74a272e1cd6f7dc12ff7f3a803b3c822 at saracom.com> > Content-Type: text/plain > > > > OK, I think all of them have been claimed now. If not I will report. Now > to see what else is in the shed. > > thanks > > ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 > 11:06:31 -0400 From: Jacob Ritorto To: > "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Subject: > Re: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hey Max, I'll take a couple. > You're a six-hour's drive from me, so it'll take me a sec to figure out > when. How's Friday for you? On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 6:47 PM, > wrote: > > >> Hello, I am in the process of moving and need to pare down my spare > parts collection. I have several BA23 chassis with power supplies. I do not > know the condition as they have been stored in my shed for years. They do > not include modules or outer shells. If you pickup in Lexington KY, they > are free. Thanks Max > > ************************************ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 16:23:42 -0500 > From: Paul Anderson > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY - Taken > Message-ID: > o11LvsLG3hdkh858H0JNvmswy4ggQg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > If anyone needs any boards for them, feel free to contact me off list. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > OK, I think all of them have been claimed now. If not I will report. Now > > to see what else is in the shed. > > > > thanks > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 > > 11:06:31 -0400 From: Jacob Ritorto To: > > "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Subject: > > Re: BA23 Chassis available in Lexington KY Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hey Max, I'll take a couple. > > You're a six-hour's drive from me, so it'll take me a sec to figure out > > when. How's Friday for you? On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 6:47 PM, > > wrote: > > > > >> Hello, I am in the process of moving and need to pare down my spare > > parts collection. I have several BA23 chassis with power supplies. I do > not > > know the condition as they have been stored in my shed for years. They do > > not include modules or outer shells. If you pickup in Lexington KY, they > > are free. Thanks Max > > > ************************************ > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 19:37:24 -0500 > From: "Jay West" > To: > Subject: Looking for.... > Message-ID: <000d01d070cb$04a0bf60$0de23e20$@classiccmp.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I need another operational HP 7970E mag tape controller (13183 - 2 board > set). It appears that the spare board sets I have are 13181 which I believe > is only for the 7970A/B. All my drives are 7970E, so is there any chance > someone has a 7970A/B but has a 13183 and would like to swap my 13181 for > it? J Or if anyone has a spare 13183 they want to sell/trade... > > > > Best, > > > > J > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 22:54:39 +0000 > From: Christopher Parish > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts ?[cctech at classiccmp.org]? > > Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: > > <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB at MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" > > Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete > operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access > (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the > controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). Of course, this is > only true for RL02K-EF (error-free) packs. The common RL02K-DC packs (those > with identified bad blocks from the factory) are another story. > > > The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. > Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what to do > with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I could skip the > sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all zeros for the sector. > > > Skipping the sector is a bad idea because the logical address of all > sectors after it will shift down by one. This will make the disk image not > work correctly with SIMH, or anything else for that matter, because most > filesystems address things by physical block (Please correct me if I'm > wrong here). Remember, we're at the device level (/dev/sda) not the > partition level (/dev/sda1). > > > Returning all zeros for bad sectors will preserve the block numbers of > following sectors and work correctly with SIMH, but trying to restore the > resulting image to another physical pack will probably be impossible given > the destination disk pack has bad sectors of its own in different spots. > > > The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will not > work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. Writing some mapping > index on the disk pack or holding back sectors in reserve will break > compatibility with the original systems (PDP8s/11s/VAXes) and all their > software (an unacceptable solution). > > > I think I've come to the following conclusions given the restrictions > above: > > > - Creating and Restoring images with EF packs is unrestricted > > - SIMH operation with EF packs (online and images) will work perfectly > > - Creating images of DC packs will work with SIMH if I return zeros for > the bad blocks > > - Online use of DC packs work with SIMH assuming no new bad blocks have > formed since the bad block index was written > > - If new bad blocks have formed in a pack, SIMH will have to be modified > so its RL(V)11 can receive error information from the drive, otherwise it > will incorrectly handle the recovery > > - Restoring images on DC packs will require special software that can move > data around the bad-blocks (or a linux RT-11 filesystem driver *wink*) > > - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they > can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) > > > First, does all of this seem reasonable? > > > I vaguely remember reading about a program on RT-11 you would run > (before?) backing up the filesystem. What was this program? How did it > work? Did it make the data position independent? > > > Christopher > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 20:06:43 -0500 > From: Cory Heisterkamp > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" > Subject: Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) > Message-ID: <2747195F-0DE1-46FF-86A0-8342435A3C63 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I have a PDP 11/23+ I'm attempting to bring up and discovered why I wasn't > getting anywhere- a metal screw had gotten into the supply shorting > *something* on the supply PCB. I'm new to DEC equipment and I'm afraid this > supply is beyond me. If someone has one for sale (this one marked H7861), > please let me know. It looks serviceable and is likely repairable by an > expert so that could be an option, too. > > Thanks, > Cory > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:21:32 -0400 (EDT) > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) > Message-ID: <20150407042132.A7EF618C0FB at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > > > From: Cory Heisterkamp > > > If someone has one for sale (this one marked H7861), please let me > > know. > > Someone on eBay is selling one: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/150947900783 > > They are asking $125, which is not wholly ridiculous, and will probably > take > slightly less. I've bought several from this seller, and they are in good > shape. > > Also, at a pinch, I'm pretty sure (as in, I have looked at both closely, > and > verified that they have the same interfaces and physical dimensions, etc, > so I > think this will work, but I have yet to actually try it) an H786 would also > work in that system. The only difference I know of is that the H7861 puts > out > a few more amps of +5V. No reasonably priced H786's on eBay at the moment, > though. > > > It looks serviceable and is likely repairable by an expert so that > > could be an option, too. > > I'd interested in buying the dead one from you (which should help offset > the > cost if you go for the eBay one) - please contact me off line if > interested. > > Noel > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 00:32:20 -0400 > From: Jacob Ritorto > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Seeking H7861 Power Supply (PDP 11/23+) > Message-ID: > < > CAHYQbfA336fXz8Ee_kThmGZKCz3r9wn8Je-rNg0-wP0TjfQtfQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > coupla questions as an aside on this subject: > > 1) Which PS is more available on commodity market? > > 2) Assuming H7681, do you know how to wire a chassis that expects H768 to > work with H7681? Or vice versa? > > 3) How can we make what we have on hand work for a long time? > > Bonus 4) Is there a commodity setup available to replace this analog kit > entirely with new stuff? (probably a new thread) > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:21 AM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > > > > From: Cory Heisterkamp > > > > > If someone has one for sale (this one marked H7861), please let me > > > know. > > > > Someone on eBay is selling one: > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/150947900783 > > > > They are asking $125, which is not wholly ridiculous, and will probably > > take > > slightly less. I've bought several from this seller, and they are in good > > shape. > > > > Also, at a pinch, I'm pretty sure (as in, I have looked at both closely, > > and > > verified that they have the same interfaces and physical dimensions, etc, > > so I > > think this will work, but I have yet to actually try it) an H786 would > also > > work in that system. The only difference I know of is that the H7861 puts > > out > > a few more amps of +5V. No reasonably priced H786's on eBay at the > moment, > > though. > > > > > It looks serviceable and is likely repairable by an expert so that > > > could be an option, too. > > > > I'd interested in buying the dead one from you (which should help offset > > the > > cost if you go for the eBay one) - please contact me off line if > > interested. > > > > Noel > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 23:41:48 -0600 > From: Eric Smith > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts ?[cctech at classiccmp.org]? > > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: > O5G2eYfgENNNWyhJwGH+D2c9g at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Christopher Parish > wrote: > > - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they > can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) > > I'm not sure which filesystems you have in mind as "modern", but > filesystem-level support for bad blocks has largely faded away in > recent decades, because for many years now all disk drives have > implemented bad block replacement internally. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 23:41:48 -0600 > From: Eric Smith > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts ?[cctech at classiccmp.org]? > > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: > O5G2eYfgENNNWyhJwGH+D2c9g at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Christopher Parish > wrote: > > - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they > can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) > > I'm not sure which filesystems you have in mind as "modern", but > filesystem-level support for bad blocks has largely faded away in > recent decades, because for many years now all disk drives have > implemented bad block replacement internally. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 22:53:59 -0700 > From: Don North > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > , "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > ?[cctech at classiccmp.org]?" > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: <552370F7.5050500 at alum.mit.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1256; format=flowed > > Shouldn't the controller be using the DEC STD 144 bad sector replacement > table > in the last sector to transparently remap bad sectors such that, to the > user, > the -DC packs appear error free? If this were done each RL02 image should > appear > error-free in logical block address space as the hidden remapping of bad > sectors > on -DC drives would not be seen by the user (or O/S). > > All the other proposed ways of handling -DC bad sectors have serious > compatibility issues. > > Don > > On 4/6/2015 3:54 PM, Christopher Parish wrote: > > Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete > operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access > (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the > controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). Of course, this is > only true for RL02K-EF (error-free) packs. The common RL02K-DC packs (those > with identified bad blocks from the factory) are another story. > > > > > > The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. > Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what to do > with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I could skip the > sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all zeros for the sector. > > > > > > Skipping the sector is a bad idea because the logical address of all > sectors after it will shift down by one. This will make the disk image not > work correctly with SIMH, or anything else for that matter, because most > filesystems address things by physical block (Please correct me if I'm > wrong here). Remember, we're at the device level (/dev/sda) not the > partition level (/dev/sda1). > > > > > > Returning all zeros for bad sectors will preserve the block numbers of > following sectors and work correctly with SIMH, but trying to restore the > resulting image to another physical pack will probably be impossible given > the destination disk pack has bad sectors of its own in different spots. > > > > > > The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will not > work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. Writing some mapping > index on the disk pack or holding back sectors in reserve will break > compatibility with the original systems (PDP8s/11s/VAXes) and all their > software (an unacceptable solution). > > > > > > I think I've come to the following conclusions given the restrictions > above: > > > > > > - Creating and Restoring images with EF packs is unrestricted > > > > - SIMH operation with EF packs (online and images) will work perfectly > > > > - Creating images of DC packs will work with SIMH if I return zeros for > the bad blocks > > > > - Online use of DC packs work with SIMH assuming no new bad blocks have > formed since the bad block index was written > > > > - If new bad blocks have formed in a pack, SIMH will have to be modified > so its RL(V)11 can receive error information from the drive, otherwise it > will incorrectly handle the recovery > > > > - Restoring images on DC packs will require special software that can > move data around the bad-blocks (or a linux RT-11 filesystem driver *wink*) > > > > - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they > can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) > > > > > > First, does all of this seem reasonable? > > > > > > I vaguely remember reading about a program on RT-11 you would run > (before?) backing up the filesystem. What was this program? How did it > work? Did it make the data position independent? > > > > > > Christopher > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 22:53:59 -0700 > From: Don North > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > , "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > ?[cctech at classiccmp.org]?" > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: <552370F7.5050500 at alum.mit.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1256; format=flowed > > Shouldn't the controller be using the DEC STD 144 bad sector replacement > table > in the last sector to transparently remap bad sectors such that, to the > user, > the -DC packs appear error free? If this were done each RL02 image should > appear > error-free in logical block address space as the hidden remapping of bad > sectors > on -DC drives would not be seen by the user (or O/S). > > All the other proposed ways of handling -DC bad sectors have serious > compatibility issues. > > Don > > On 4/6/2015 3:54 PM, Christopher Parish wrote: > > Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete > operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access > (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the > controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). Of course, this is > only true for RL02K-EF (error-free) packs. The common RL02K-DC packs (those > with identified bad blocks from the factory) are another story. > > > > > > The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. > Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what to do > with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I could skip the > sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all zeros for the sector. > > > > > > Skipping the sector is a bad idea because the logical address of all > sectors after it will shift down by one. This will make the disk image not > work correctly with SIMH, or anything else for that matter, because most > filesystems address things by physical block (Please correct me if I'm > wrong here). Remember, we're at the device level (/dev/sda) not the > partition level (/dev/sda1). > > > > > > Returning all zeros for bad sectors will preserve the block numbers of > following sectors and work correctly with SIMH, but trying to restore the > resulting image to another physical pack will probably be impossible given > the destination disk pack has bad sectors of its own in different spots. > > > > > > The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will not > work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. Writing some mapping > index on the disk pack or holding back sectors in reserve will break > compatibility with the original systems (PDP8s/11s/VAXes) and all their > software (an unacceptable solution). > > > > > > I think I've come to the following conclusions given the restrictions > above: > > > > > > - Creating and Restoring images with EF packs is unrestricted > > > > - SIMH operation with EF packs (online and images) will work perfectly > > > > - Creating images of DC packs will work with SIMH if I return zeros for > the bad blocks > > > > - Online use of DC packs work with SIMH assuming no new bad blocks have > formed since the bad block index was written > > > > - If new bad blocks have formed in a pack, SIMH will have to be modified > so its RL(V)11 can receive error information from the drive, otherwise it > will incorrectly handle the recovery > > > > - Restoring images on DC packs will require special software that can > move data around the bad-blocks (or a linux RT-11 filesystem driver *wink*) > > > > - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they > can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) > > > > > > First, does all of this seem reasonable? > > > > > > I vaguely remember reading about a program on RT-11 you would run > (before?) backing up the filesystem. What was this program? How did it > work? Did it make the data position independent? > > > > > > Christopher > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 08:20:27 +0200 > From: shadoooo > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RD54 Stopped Spinning > Message-ID: > c79czUk71Q at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hello, > apart from the transistors, I would check for some bad capacitor. > The analog part with the sensors needs quite clean supply to work good, > while the motor itself is a big source of spikes and pulses. > Possibly there could be some supply filter, with electrolytic capacitors > not working as expected due to age... or with excessive current leakage. > > Andrea > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 12:21:31 +0200 > From: Johnny Billquist > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: <5523AFAB.5080509 at update.uu.se> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > This might become a long answer. > > First of all, back when the RL drives were made, hardware handled bad > block management wasn't yet popular in that neck of the woods. So bad > blocks were/are visible to the software. In order to have some > management of this, DEC had a standard - DEC STD144, which described how > you kept track of, and managed, bad blocks. > If you ever wondered where the Unix program bad144 got its name from, > now you know (and the ultimate stupidness is NetBSD, where they decided > that only the x86 platform would have bad144, leaving the VAX - the only > hardware platform who actually had disks following the bad144 standard, > not having the bad144 program). > > The STD144 reserves the last track of the device for pack information. > In there you have the pack serial number, and also the manufacturer bad > block list, and also the user bad block list. When/if new blocks are > detected after the pack is manufactured, they would be placed in the > user bad block list. > > So, a EF pack would simply be a pack with no bad blocks from the > manufacturer. The manufacturer bad block list would contain no bad > blocks. This does not mean that the pack could not develop bad blocks > later. > > Now, a total imaging of one RL disk to another is not something you > should do. That would replace the pack serial number, in addition to the > issues with the bad block lists. Not to mention that different packs > have bad blocks in different places. > > Sp, to get to the meat of it. No, bad blocks are not replaced, or mapped > away, or faked. The drive and controller can detect bad blocks, and when > you try to read one, you'll get an error back. Drivers try a few times, > and then give up, giving an error back to the user program. > You should not try anything different. > > Now moving over to how software deals with this, essentially all DEC > OSes have some way or other to mark the known bad sectors as bad when > the filesystem in created, and then no software will try to use them. > I have some rough idea on how this is done in RT-11 and RSTS/E, but to > give details, I'll describe how RSX does it. > RSX have a program that scans disks for bad blocks. It is called BAD. > BAD will update the last track with any new bad blocks found. > A different program is used to create a file system on a disks - INI. > INI will read the last track of the device, to get the manufacturer and > user bad block list. INI will then create the file system on the disk, > and allocate all the bad blocks on the disk to a special file - > BADBLK.SYS. That way, those blocks are already marked as used, and other > files created cannot accidentally include those bad blocks. > > Copying RL disks with a block by block copy is not something you'd do. > You'd mount the disk and copy the contents. > > So, all disk blocks are numbered just as you would expect. Bad blocks > are not hidden, or mapped away, or returns zeroes. Doing anything like > that will break existing software. > > Johnny > > On 2015-04-07 00:54, Christopher Parish wrote: > > Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete > operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access > (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the > controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). Of course, this is > only true for RL02K-EF (error-free) packs. The common RL02K-DC packs (those > with identified bad blocks from the factory) are another story. > > > > > > The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. > Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what to do > with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I could skip the > sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all zeros for the sector. > > > > > > Skipping the sector is a bad idea because the logical address of all > sectors after it will shift down by one. This will make the disk image not > work correctly with SIMH, or anything else for that matter, because most > filesystems address things by physical block (Please correct me if I'm > wrong here). Remember, we're at the device level (/dev/sda) not the > partition level (/dev/sda1). > > > > > > Returning all zeros for bad sectors will preserve the block numbers of > following sectors and work correctly with SIMH, but trying to restore the > resulting image to another physical pack will probably be impossible given > the destination disk pack has bad sectors of its own in different spots. > > > > > > The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will not > work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. Writing some mapping > index on the disk pack or holding back sectors in reserve will break > compatibility with the original systems (PDP8s/11s/VAXes) and all their > software (an unacceptable solution). > > > > > > I think I've come to the following conclusions given the restrictions > above: > > > > > > - Creating and Restoring images with EF packs is unrestricted > > > > - SIMH operation with EF packs (online and images) will work perfectly > > > > - Creating images of DC packs will work with SIMH if I return zeros for > the bad blocks > > > > - Online use of DC packs work with SIMH assuming no new bad blocks have > formed since the bad block index was written > > > > - If new bad blocks have formed in a pack, SIMH will have to be modified > so its RL(V)11 can receive error information from the drive, otherwise it > will incorrectly handle the recovery > > > > - Restoring images on DC packs will require special software that can > move data around the bad-blocks (or a linux RT-11 filesystem driver *wink*) > > > > - Using a modern filesystem on EF/DC packs is unrestricted (because they > can identify and manage bad blocks on their own) > > > > > > First, does all of this seem reasonable? > > > > > > I vaguely remember reading about a program on RT-11 you would run > (before?) backing up the filesystem. What was this program? How did it > work? Did it make the data position independent? > > > > > > Christopher > > > > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 12:13:47 +0000 > From: Christopher Parish > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: RE: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: > > <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF0132 at MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > [...] > > Now, a total imaging of one RL disk to another is not something you > > should do. That would replace the pack serial number, in addition to the > > issues with the bad block lists. Not to mention that different packs > > have bad blocks in different places. > > I agree. You're right that the best way to copy a pack is to load up the > appropriate OS in the simulator and instruct it to do the work. Because it > has knowledge of the filesystem, it will copy around bad blocks, identify > new ones, etc. without stomping on the serial number and factory recorded > bad block data. > > > Sp, to get to the meat of it. No, bad blocks are not replaced, or mapped > > away, or faked. The drive and controller can detect bad blocks, and when > > you try to read one, you'll get an error back. Drivers try a few times, > > and then give up, giving an error back to the user program. > > You should not try anything different. > > [...] > > Johnny > > I will have to patch SIMH to support this paradigm because right now it > expects the backing store for its virtual RL02s to be readable at all > times. IO errors trying to access the underlying "file" halt the > simulator. Additionally, there is no way to report what type of error > occurred via USB mass storage, only that fewer blocks were returned than > expected. > > I think I'll need to have two completely different modes of operation. > > A USB Mass storage mode would use the pack like a modern hard disk. The > controller would hide and internally use the last track for bad block > identification and not expose it to the PC. Also, the controller would > hold some number of sectors in reserve, presenting a flat, error free > ~9.8MB disk to the PC. This would work for modern filesystems but be > completely useless for SIMH and physical computer compatibility. > > The other mode will need to be a non mass storage interface like bulk or > CDC mode specifically for use with SIMH and any custom diagnostics. SIMH > (after modification) would then be able to access all the raw data on the > pack and have access to any errors that occur, handling them however it > wants. Copying packs would need to be done just like it is now, except in > the simulator. You either mount or image and mount the first disk, load > your favorite OS in SIMH attached to the physical drive, and instruct it to > copy disk 1 to disk 2, letting it copy around bad blocks in the manner it > always has (preserving compatibility). > > Christopher > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 13:41:08 +0100 > From: Pete Turnbull > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: <5523D064.3040305 at dunnington.plus.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1256; format=flowed > > On 06/04/2015 23:54, Christopher Parish wrote: > > Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete > > operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access > > (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the > > controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). > > Very good! I want one :-) > > > The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. > > Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what > > to do with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I > > could skip the sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all > > zeros for the sector. > > > The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will > > not work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. > > DEC does it by having the driver software remap sectors. > > > Writing some > > mapping index on the disk pack or holding back sectors in reserve > > will break compatibility with the original systems (PDP8s/11s/VAXes) > > and all their software (an unacceptable solution). > > Eh? Use the existing bad block table which is on an RL01 or RL02, as on > many other DEC disks. > > Return an error. Unless it's a block that's already in the bad block > table at the end of the disk, in which case return the content of the > remapped block, of course. If you don't do that, you'll break things in > DEC OSs. > > > I vaguely remember reading about a program on RT-11 you would run > > (before?) backing up the filesystem. What was this program? How did > > it work? Did it make the data position independent? > > There are several ways to detect or handle bad blocks in RT-11. I > suspect you're thinking of INIT/BAD or more likely DIR/BAD, or possibly > BACKUP or FORMAT. > > INIT is is the monitor command to create an RT-11 filesystem on a disk; > the /BAD option (full name BADBLOCKS, can be shortened to as little as > /BA) tells it to scan the disk and report any bad blocks it finds. With > no other options, it creates directory entries for files called FILE.BAD > covering those blocks. INIT/BAD:RETAIN keeps any FILE.BAD it finds, and > in most versions doesn't actually scan. This is really meant for > devices that don't have a DEC standard bad block table (like floppies). > > Alternatively INIT/BAD/REPLACE doesn't write FILE.BAD but instead > updates the bad block table at the end of the disk; /REPLACE overwrites > the table, whereas REPLACE:RETAIN adds to it. Note that the DL(X) > drivers in RT-11, as in other DEC OSs, know about the bad block table. > > But of course you wouldn't use INIT just before making a backup ;-) > And it wouldn't work if your controller lies and returns zeros for bad > blocks; that would be a very bad idea and will cause things to fail badly. > > The SQUEEZE command compresses a disk by shuffling up all the files > (except FILE.BAD) to be contiguous (RT-11 always writes individual files > as contiguous blocks on disk but gaps between files can arise as things > are deleted or rewritten). It honours the bad block table (and/or > FILE.BAD), as do other disk utilities, because the drivers do that. If > your driver doesn't, it'll fail. > > If you just want to quickly scan a disk for errors, a common way is to > do COPY/DEV/IGN DLx: NL: which does a block for block copy of the entire > disk to the NULL device, reporting errors but not stopping on them > (/COPY/DEVICE/IGNORE). It's common to do that just after formatting a > disk, but before INIT, for example if you're working with a non-RT-11 > filesystem. BTW, for other COPY operations, it ignores FILE.BAD files, > for obvious reasons, unless you specifically include them. > > You were probably thinking of the DIR command. /BAD is also an option > to DIR; it can tell also you which files are affected by bad blocks. It > scans the entire disk for bad blocks, and even works on non-RT-11 disks. > If it finds any, it will report the block number in octal and decimal, > and tell you if it's "Replaced" or "Replaceable" - ie if it's already in > the bad block table - but it won't change the table for you. The full > syntax is DIRECTORY/BADBLOCKS[/FILES][/START:n][/END:n]. /FILES will > tell you what files are affected, assuming it's an RT-11 filesystem; > /START and /END allow you specify a range rather than the whole disk. > There's also a /WAIT option that pauses to let you change disks before > scanning. > > BACKUP (or BUP) scans the target disk for bad blocks before copying a > saveset to it (and stops if it finds any). > > You can't FORMAT an RL01 or RL02, but you can FORMAT/VERIFY:ONLY one. > That writes patterns over the surface to test it, much more thoroughly > than DIR/BAD, INIT/BAD, COPY/DEV or BACKUP. > > -- > Pete > > Pete Turnbull > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 14:14:18 +0100 > From: Pete Turnbull > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: <5523D82A.7080804 at dunnington.plus.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 07/04/2015 11:21, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Sp, to get to the meat of it. No, bad blocks are not replaced, or mapped > > away, or faked. The drive and controller can detect bad blocks, and when > > you try to read one, you'll get an error back. Drivers try a few times, > > and then give up, giving an error back to the user program. > > You should not try anything different. > > Absolutely. > > > Copying RL disks with a block by block copy is not something you'd do. > > You'd mount the disk and copy the contents. > > Actually COPY/DEV under RT-11 is commonly used, especially for non-RT-11 > packs. I can't remember what RSX does, but RT-11 /does/ deal with the > bad block table, by not copying the last track, and copying remapped > blocks. But in general, under other OSs, yes, not a good idea. It > would be like using dd in Unix to copy an entire device, including the > disk label, rather than the partitions. > > -- > Pete > > Pete Turnbull > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 14:24:30 +0100 > From: Pete Turnbull > To: "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: <5523DA8E.9030908 at dunnington.plus.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1256; format=flowed > > On 07/04/2015 13:41, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > The SQUEEZE command [...] honours the bad block table (and/or > > FILE.BAD), as do other disk utilities, because the drivers do that. > > Actually, thinking about it, SQUEEZE probably does it itself, and the > drivers probably just do error reporting. I think. > > -- > Pete > > Pete Turnbull > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 15:58:36 +0100 > From: Pete Turnbull > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: <5523F09C.5000900 at dunnington.plus.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 07/04/2015 11:21, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > The STD144 reserves the last track of the device for pack information. > > In there you have the pack serial number, and also the manufacturer bad > > block list, and also the user bad block list. > > While looking for something quite unrelated, I noticed that the RT-11 > Device Handlers Manual says slightly differently. The user list is > stored, merged with the manufacturing list, in the home block (track 0 > sector 1) of RL01/02 and RK06/07 volumes, beginning at offset 6 > (HB.BAD). The actual replacement blocks are reserved space on the > second last track (or tracks 0,1 of the last cylinder on RK06/7). > > The symbol names for the values in HB.BAD are defined in the .BBRDF > macro in the distributed file SYSTEM.MLB. > Offset Name Meaning > 0 BBR.BD Bad block number. > 2 BBR.GD Replacement block number. > BBR.SZ Entry size. > > RSX-11 may not be the same? > > -- > Pete > > Pete Turnbull > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 11:25:03 -0400 > From: Paul Koning > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > On Apr 7, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Pete Turnbull > wrote: > > > > On 06/04/2015 23:54, Christopher Parish wrote: > >> Progress is good on the RL02-USB controller. I've gotten complete > >> operation working as expected with the usual tools for disk access > >> (badblocks, dd, etc.), and SIMH can access the real packs via the > >> controller's block device (i.e. attach rl0 /dev/sdX). > > > > Very good! I want one :-) > > > >> The issue is most obvious when backing up and restoring disk images. > >> Suppose I backup a pack with 1 bad sector. I have two choices of what > >> to do with the bad sector (specifically if it's a bad header), I > >> could skip the sector (reporting an IO error), or I could report all > >> zeros for the sector. > > > > > The usual trick of having the controller re-map the bad sectors will > > > not work because the platters in the RL02 are removable. > > > > DEC does it by having the driver software remap sectors. > > No, DEC does not do that. At least not in RSX, as Johnny described, nor > in RSTS. > > In RSTS, creating a file system on a pack is done with the ?dskint? > utility. One of its functions is to perform a drive scan, writing and > verifying all sectors with several data patterns. If a sector is found to > be bad, it is handled simply by allocating it to the reserved file > [0,1]badb.sys. This scheme works for all drive types, including those that > predate DEC Std 144. On packs that have a bad block table, the blocks > listed in that table are includes in the bad block list that dskint > determines (I don?t remember if they are checked anyway, or bypassed in the > check). > > I also don?t remember if there was a way to handle blocks going bad > later. In principle, yes; they could be allocated to badb.sys also. If > so, a file system check (?onlcln?) would find a double allocated block and > let you delete the file that was affected. > > The first drive type I know of that had anything resembling remapping is > the RM80, with the ?skip sector? feature, where each track had an extra > sector, and a flag in the sector header could be used to mark that sector > as ?skip me and use the spare sector instead?. The first real remapping > appeared in MSCP, which makes sense because that is the first time that DEC > drives used logical addressing instead of hard cylinder/track/head > addressing. At first (UDA50), remapping was done largely in the driver, > requiring a quantity of code way larger than any other disk driver. In > subsequent MSCP controllers, it moved entirely into the controller and the > host simply saw an error free logical block space. > > Given all this, an image copy of a disk is not valid, unless the > destination disk is error free. (Early packs usually were, which is why > early PDP11 backup programs like ROLLIN did use image copy.) If the > destination disk has errors, the copying has to be at the file system > level, either by just copying all files one by one, or by doing an image > copy that works around destination flaws. The RSTS standalone backup > program SAVRES is an example of the latter. > > paul > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 17:56:34 +0200 > From: Johnny Billquist > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: <5523FE32.5010600 at update.uu.se> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 2015-04-07 15:14, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 07/04/2015 11:21, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Sp, to get to the meat of it. No, bad blocks are not replaced, or mapped > >> away, or faked. The drive and controller can detect bad blocks, and when > >> you try to read one, you'll get an error back. Drivers try a few times, > >> and then give up, giving an error back to the user program. > >> You should not try anything different. > > > > Absolutely. > > > >> Copying RL disks with a block by block copy is not something you'd do. > >> You'd mount the disk and copy the contents. > > > > Actually COPY/DEV under RT-11 is commonly used, especially for non-RT-11 > > packs. I can't remember what RSX does, but RT-11 /does/ deal with the > > bad block table, by not copying the last track, and copying remapped > > blocks. > > But that don't make sense. You cannot just move one block somewhere else > because it is bad on the target device. Or just ignore a block because > it is bad on the source device. > > And "remapped" must be something very local to RT-11. RSX do not remap > any blocks. A block that is bad, is bad. It is still there. No other > block is substituted for the bad block. And where would those > substitution blocks come from? There are no hidden extra blocks on an RL > pack. > > RSX simply deals with bad blocks on an RL pack by making sure no file > accidentally gets them, by putting all the bad blocks into a specific > file on the file system, intended to hold bad blocks. > > > But in general, under other OSs, yes, not a good idea. It > > would be like using dd in Unix to copy an entire device, including the > > disk label, rather than the partitions. > > Yes. > > Johnny > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 17:59:04 +0200 > From: Johnny Billquist > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem > Message-ID: <5523FEC8.2070308 at update.uu.se> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 2015-04-07 16:58, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 07/04/2015 11:21, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > >> The STD144 reserves the last track of the device for pack information. > >> In there you have the pack serial number, and also the manufacturer bad > >> block list, and also the user bad block list. > > > > While looking for something quite unrelated, I noticed that the RT-11 > > Device Handlers Manual says slightly differently. The user list is > > stored, merged with the manufacturing list, in the home block (track 0 > > sector 1) of RL01/02 and RK06/07 volumes, beginning at offset 6 > > (HB.BAD). The actual replacement blocks are reserved space on the > > second last track (or tracks 0,1 of the last cylinder on RK06/7). > > > > The symbol names for the values in HB.BAD are defined in the .BBRDF > > macro in the distributed file SYSTEM.MLB. > > Offset Name Meaning > > 0 BBR.BD Bad block number. > > 2 BBR.GD Replacement block number. > > BBR.SZ Entry size. > > > > RSX-11 may not be the same? > > You are thinking of/referring to how the file system works. The bad > block list on the last track is not directly used by the system, since > this is different from one device to the next. > RL drives have bad block information on the last track. It is not OS > dependent. > > Johnny > > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 6, Issue 7 > ************************************ > -- Edward Austin/?? ????? 109147, ??????, ??????, ??. ????????????, ?. 3 gsm: +44 (0)7726 05 0000 (UK) gsm: +7 925 871 94 11 (Moscow) ed at ryer.ru From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 8 14:26:06 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 15:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UK PDP11 wanted Message-ID: <20150408192606.E691718C110@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Edward Austin > I am tempted to by a working MicroPDP 11/73 in a BA-23 from eBay US for > $1200, but shipping and taxes would make this at least 50% more See if you can buy the chassis in the UK/EU, that's the heavy part (i.e. costs the most to ship). You could then buy cards in the US, and have them sent to you trans-Atlantic; being light, they won't cost much to send. (I will help, if a seller won't ship internationally - I can also test the cards to make sure they are working before dispatching them.) 11/73 CPU cards come up regularly for not too much (I just bought one for $46), and memory, etc can also be had for not too much. What do you want to do about mass storage? That's going to be the hard part, IMO. Noel~h From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 14:37:41 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 21:37:41 +0200 Subject: VAX-11/750 power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2015-04-08 18:46 GMT+02:00 tony duell : > > However looking in the print set the diode is listed as 1114197-00 with > the > > remark "60 AMP POWER SCHOTTKY DIODE" > > > > Is the Unitrode USD5096F a 60 Amp diode? This link tells me it is a 35A > > diode: > > > > http://www.electronicsurplus.com/unitrode-usd5096f-diode-35amp-35v-piv > > and so does this link: > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/35-Amp-35-Volt-Stud-Mounted-Diode-with-Wire-and-Lug-Wind-and-Solar-Blocking- > > /271653646843?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f3fd1b1fb > > It's possible (although unlikely) that DEC selected diodes that could > stand 60A for this location from what were > nominally 35A parts. More likely, I think, is that what is _needed_ here > is a 35A diode (what is the output current > of this PSU) and that the originially specified part was a 60A one (which > is clearly be OK). Then somebody found > a 35A part that would work. > The problem I have it is impossible to confirm what the rating is for this diode. I simply cannot find the data sheet. The 5V PSU uses four of these diodes and the max output is 135A. The 2.5V PSU uses three diodes and the max output is 85A. > > > Of course you can always fit a higher current diode than is strictly > required (provide the switching times are > fast enough in a circuit like this). My guess is that since diodes have > improved since the days of the 11/750, > you could fit modern 60A Schottky diodes without problems. > I will try to run it with the replacement USD5096F that I have and see how long it lasts. It probably depends on how many boards I stuff into the machine. If that fails I will search for DO5 mount 60A Schottky diodes. If anyone has a bunch of them at a good price I am interested! > -tony > > /Mattis From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 8 15:13:06 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 21:13:06 +0100 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0da901d07238$6d1852b0$4748f810$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Edward > Austin > Sent: 08 April 2015 13:19 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: UK PDP11 wanted > > Hi there > > I am based in the UK (Edinburgh) and have been seeking the last couple of > years a working/non-working MicroPDP 11/23, 73 or 93 in preferably a BA-23, > but anything definitely considered. > > These rarely come up on eBay (although I am tempted to by a working > MicroPDP 11/73 in a BA-23 from eBay US for $1200, but shipping and taxes > would make this at least 50% more). > > Any advice on sources of hardware in the UK/EU would be much appreciated. > > I really don't want to wait many more years simply because the rarity may > mean I never get one. > > Also looking for a VAXStation 3100/9x model. Again hard to find in the UK. > > Many thanks > Ed Have you seen this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-DEC-PDP-1173-1MEG-QBUS-cards-backplane-front-console-panesl-/121614498341 Also, I have a MicroVAX 3100 Model 80 that I am looking to pass on. Not quite a VAXstation 3100/9x, of course. I will have it at DEC Legacy (http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/) this weekend, if you were thinking of attending. Regards Rob From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 15:23:42 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 22:23:42 +0200 Subject: VAX-11/750 power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: BTW. The same type of diodes are supposed to be found in H7140 PSU of the PDP-11/44. If anyone out there has a 11/44 and is able to confirm what diodes are used in that one it would be interesting. 2015-04-08 21:37 GMT+02:00 Mattis Lind : > > > 2015-04-08 18:46 GMT+02:00 tony duell : > >> > However looking in the print set the diode is listed as 1114197-00 with >> the >> > remark "60 AMP POWER SCHOTTKY DIODE" >> > >> > Is the Unitrode USD5096F a 60 Amp diode? This link tells me it is a 35A >> > diode: >> > >> > http://www.electronicsurplus.com/unitrode-usd5096f-diode-35amp-35v-piv >> > and so does this link: >> > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/35-Amp-35-Volt-Stud-Mounted-Diode-with-Wire-and-Lug-Wind-and-Solar-Blocking- >> > /271653646843?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f3fd1b1fb >> >> It's possible (although unlikely) that DEC selected diodes that could >> stand 60A for this location from what were >> nominally 35A parts. More likely, I think, is that what is _needed_ here >> is a 35A diode (what is the output current >> of this PSU) and that the originially specified part was a 60A one (which >> is clearly be OK). Then somebody found >> a 35A part that would work. >> > > The problem I have it is impossible to confirm what the rating is for this > diode. I simply cannot find the data sheet. > > The 5V PSU uses four of these diodes and the max output is 135A. The 2.5V > PSU uses three diodes and the max output is 85A. > > >> >> >> Of course you can always fit a higher current diode than is strictly >> required (provide the switching times are >> fast enough in a circuit like this). My guess is that since diodes have >> improved since the days of the 11/750, >> you could fit modern 60A Schottky diodes without problems. >> > > I will try to run it with the replacement USD5096F that I have and see how > long it lasts. It probably depends on how many boards I stuff into the > machine. If that fails I will search for DO5 mount 60A Schottky diodes. If > anyone has a bunch of them at a good price I am interested! > > >> -tony >> >> /Mattis > From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Apr 8 15:35:29 2015 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 22:35:29 +0200 Subject: VAX-11/750 power supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55259111.9000407@update.uu.se> On 04/08/2015 10:23 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > BTW. The same type of diodes are supposed to be found in H7140 PSU of the > PDP-11/44. If anyone out there has a 11/44 and is able to confirm what > diodes are used in that one it would be interesting. I have.. but it's darn hard to get too at the moment. /P > > 2015-04-08 21:37 GMT+02:00 Mattis Lind : > >> >> 2015-04-08 18:46 GMT+02:00 tony duell : >> >>>> However looking in the print set the diode is listed as 1114197-00 with >>> the >>>> remark "60 AMP POWER SCHOTTKY DIODE" >>>> >>>> Is the Unitrode USD5096F a 60 Amp diode? This link tells me it is a 35A >>>> diode: >>>> >>>> http://www.electronicsurplus.com/unitrode-usd5096f-diode-35amp-35v-piv >>>> and so does this link: >>>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/35-Amp-35-Volt-Stud-Mounted-Diode-with-Wire-and-Lug-Wind-and-Solar-Blocking- >>>> /271653646843?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f3fd1b1fb >>> It's possible (although unlikely) that DEC selected diodes that could >>> stand 60A for this location from what were >>> nominally 35A parts. More likely, I think, is that what is _needed_ here >>> is a 35A diode (what is the output current >>> of this PSU) and that the originially specified part was a 60A one (which >>> is clearly be OK). Then somebody found >>> a 35A part that would work. >>> >> The problem I have it is impossible to confirm what the rating is for this >> diode. I simply cannot find the data sheet. >> >> The 5V PSU uses four of these diodes and the max output is 135A. The 2.5V >> PSU uses three diodes and the max output is 85A. >> >> >>> >>> Of course you can always fit a higher current diode than is strictly >>> required (provide the switching times are >>> fast enough in a circuit like this). My guess is that since diodes have >>> improved since the days of the 11/750, >>> you could fit modern 60A Schottky diodes without problems. >>> >> I will try to run it with the replacement USD5096F that I have and see how >> long it lasts. It probably depends on how many boards I stuff into the >> machine. If that fails I will search for DO5 mount 60A Schottky diodes. If >> anyone has a bunch of them at a good price I am interested! >> >> >>> -tony >>> >>> /Mattis From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 8 15:40:52 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 16:40:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UK PDP11 wanted Message-ID: <20150408204052.B425618C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Robert Jarratt > Have you seen this: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-DEC-PDP-1173-1MEG-QBUS-cards-backplane-front-console-panesl-/121614498341 Technically, that's an 11/83 CPU... Too bad the seller doesn't ship internationally, that 23+ he's selling is an awesome deal (at the moment). Noel From ben at bensinclair.com Wed Apr 8 17:37:23 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 22:37:23 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Menu Message-ID: <1428532638461.90052@bensinclair.com> I recently received a new BDV11 and booted it up on my 11/23 with whatever ROM it has on board. It displays the following menu, and I was curious if anyone recognizes it. Just for fun, I'd just like to find out what sort of system this board lived in previously. Thanks! <[2J[6;1H PRIMITIVE MENU (V-01) 1. MCR MODE 2. UIS MODE 3. LSI DIAGS ENTER MENU NUMBER: _ -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 8 17:49:24 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 23:49:24 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Monitor Message-ID: <0dfe01d0724e$42feba30$c8fc2e90$@ntlworld.com> I have finally managed to get my hands on a TRS-80 Model 1. Trouble is, it came without a monitor. I have been doing some searching to see if I can find out what kind of monitor it is and I am left unsure. All I have found so far is a statement which says it is a TV without a tuner. I am not sure what that means. I still have a CRT TV, can that be made to work, or have I bought something that I can't use? Thanks Rob From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Apr 8 17:55:22 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 18:55:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Monitor In-Reply-To: <0dfe01d0724e$42feba30$c8fc2e90$@ntlworld.com> References: <0dfe01d0724e$42feba30$c8fc2e90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Apr 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have finally managed to get my hands on a TRS-80 Model 1. Trouble is, it > came without a monitor. I have been doing some searching to see if I can > find out what kind of monitor it is and I am left unsure. All I have found > so far is a statement which says it is a TV without a tuner. I am not sure > what that means. I still have a CRT TV, can that be made to work, or have I > bought something that I can't use? You can make a cable to connect the DIN jack on the Model 1 to a standard composite video monitor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr2IKeNR5Gs Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From mspproductions at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 17:55:37 2015 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 18:55:37 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Monitor In-Reply-To: <0dfe01d0724e$42feba30$c8fc2e90$@ntlworld.com> References: <0dfe01d0724e$42feba30$c8fc2e90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: The model 1 did in fact use an RCA B&W tv with the tuner Amplifier/speaker and IF card removed, the video cable came out of the spot left by the removed volume knob. You can use a standard NTSC monitor. Connect pin 5 of the DIN connector to the shield of a coax cable and connect pin 4 of the DIN connector to the center conductor, then terminate the coax cable with an RCA connector and connect the cable to your monitor. You can connect the cable to a standard composite video in, bu you will get a better picture if you connect it to the Green(Y) connector on a component input (if your monitor can do 480i on component) On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 6:49 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have finally managed to get my hands on a TRS-80 Model 1. Trouble is, it > came without a monitor. I have been doing some searching to see if I can > find out what kind of monitor it is and I am left unsure. All I have found > so far is a statement which says it is a TV without a tuner. I am not sure > what that means. I still have a CRT TV, can that be made to work, or have I > bought something that I can't use? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions (330)542-3698 mspproductions at gmail.com KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 8 18:04:36 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 16:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Monitor In-Reply-To: <0dfe01d0724e$42feba30$c8fc2e90$@ntlworld.com> References: <0dfe01d0724e$42feba30$c8fc2e90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Apr 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have finally managed to get my hands on a TRS-80 Model 1. Trouble is, it > came without a monitor. I have been doing some searching to see if I can > find out what kind of monitor it is and I am left unsure. All I have found > so far is a statement which says it is a TV without a tuner. I am not sure > what that means. I still have a CRT TV, can that be made to work, or have I > bought something that I can't use? Almost any TV that has a "composite video" input. Or an RF modulator., or the video in of a VCR. It is close to being in-spec for RS-170. OK, it IS "RS-170", if and only if you interpret that to mean "RADIO SHACK 170" (which is what they once did with "RS-232". When I did lectures in Evans-10 at UC, I just cabled straight in to the wall jack there, to display on half a dozen large overhead monitors. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 8 19:40:34 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 01:40:34 +0100 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: <20150408204052.B425618C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150408204052.B425618C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5525CA82.5090907@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/04/2015 21:40, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Robert Jarratt > > > Have you seen this: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-DEC-PDP-1173-1MEG-QBUS-cards-backplane-front-console-panesl-/121614498341 > > Technically, that's an 11/83 CPU... Nope, it's only 15MHz, has older ROMs (unless they're not original), and the MSV11-Q memory isn't PMI, so it's an 11/73. Just as it says on the panel, though that's not always reliable. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Apr 8 22:55:31 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:55:31 -0700 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <552439E6.8000306@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FF00DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> <552427DC.3030602@dunnington.plus.com> <55242F13.9040605@update.uu.se> <552438C3.4010405@alum.mit.edu> <552439E6.8000306@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5525F833.2010203@alum.mit.edu> On 4/7/2015 1:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-04-07 22:06, Don North wrote: >> On 4/7/2015 12:25 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> On 2015-04-07 20:54, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>>> On 07/04/2015 19:26, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>>>> Well, yes, it's still bad, and still there, but all the RT-11 >>>>>> utilities >>>>>> use the substitute block. >>>>> >>>>> So COPY/DEV is essentially only usable for opying RT-11 disks on RT-11 >>>>> systems. :-) >>>>> Nothing wrong with that, mind you. >>>> >>>> Well, no, actually; I've been using it (under RT-11 V5.7) to copy other >>>> OS disks (mainly 7th Edition Unix) because it does that perfectly well >>>> :-) When the DL.SYS driver sees a disk changed, it reads the >>>> manufacturing defect list so it's still good to copy most disks. >>> >>> But since the 7th edition Unix most likely do not treat the bad blocks >>> the same way as RT-11 does (skipping bad blocks), that means blocks >>> will get renumbered, and 7th edition will end up with a very corrupt >>> and broken file system. >>> Essentially, this will only work well if you don't have any bad blocks >>> on the device. >>> >>> Just because you have a manufacturer bad block list on the disk, that >>> does not mean that different OSes handle the disk the same way. >>> >>> Let me give you a very silly example. >>> Let's say we have a file system where each disk block points to the >>> next disk block in a file, and that the OS address each disk block in >>> an absolute manner. Bad blocks do not affect the block numbering. >>> >>> Let's then say that we have the following 5 blocks: >>> >>> Block # Content >>> n: n+1 >>> n+1: n+3 >>> n+2: >>> n+3: n+4 >>> n+4: 0 (EOF) >>> >>> Now, if RT treats this as skipping over the bad blocks, it would skip >>> n+2, while n+3 would on the target device become n+2. However, block >>> n+1 still points to n+3, so now we skip over one block of the file. >>> Which means we corrupted the disk. >>> >>> I could create a whole bunch of similar scenarios, but I'm sure you >>> can too. :-) >>> >>> Johnny >>> >> >> I don't see any way that bad blocks can just be skipped over in the >> numbering system. This would mean you had no reasonable way of doing >> random block access to the RL0x device without some type of lookup table. >> >> RL0x does head/cylinder/sector addressing, so a direct block address >> could be decomposed into a specific H/C/S by a simple set of equations. >> If you throw skipping arbitrary bad sectors in the mix this no longer >> works. >> >> So I see that replacement of bad sectors inline (using the '144 mapping >> table and data) as the only reasonable approach. >> >> My opinion of course. > > I just posted an answer to Paul explaining how OS/8 does exactly this: skip > over bad blocks. It's actually not hard at all, and less costly than a lookup > table. > But anyway, this is all theoretical. Unix do not have any such schemes. It > essentially do the same things we've been talking about. When you find a bad > block, you actually create a file containing that block, so that nothing else > will accidentally use it later. > So it's not hidden or remapped in any way. > > Johnny I would think that there should be two operating modes: (1) Physical mode, real all sectors as is. Return error on reads of bad sectors. Host software will have to deal with the error. Reread and /or parse the DEC STD 144 table itself to resolve the error. (2) Logical mode. Your USB interface reads/parses the DEC STD 144 bad block table and does the appropriate revectoring of known bad blocks. On the host side you end up presenting what amounts to an RL02K-EF drive image. Some users will want (1), most users will probably want to use (2) (ie, with SIMH). From wilson at dbit.com Wed Apr 8 23:05:47 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 00:05:47 -0400 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <5525F833.2010203@alum.mit.edu> References: <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> <552427DC.3030602@dunnington.plus.com> <55242F13.9040605@update.uu.se> <552438C3.4010405@alum.mit.edu> <552439E6.8000306@update.uu.se> <5525F833.2010203@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150409040547.GA10548@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 08:55:31PM -0700, Don North wrote: >(2) Logical mode. Your USB interface reads/parses the DEC STD 144 bad block >table and does the appropriate revectoring of known bad blocks. On the host >side you end up presenting what amounts to an RL02K-EF drive image. DEC std 144 just lists the bad blocks, it doesn't revector them. The RT-11 (only!!!) DL: driver does revectoring based on its own private table in block 1 (so hilarity ensues if the disk you're reading isn't an RT-11 disk). But that's important only because RT uses contiguous files -- all the other OSes know how to avoid bad blocks cleanly so they don't need to live in an error-free utopia. I'd think the way to handle dumb host software is to log bad blocks somewhere but return all zeros (or real data if that's possible), so at least programs won't crap out part way through a copy. But then you have to make sure you read the error log before you assume it worked. I'd love to hear the results of running this device with E11. E11 does pass error status through but other than with floppies, I don't get a lot of chances to test those code paths. A while back I added a layer which inserts fake bad blocks on purpose, just for testing a wad of PDP-11 disk drivers I was writing. John Wilson D Bit From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Apr 8 23:34:30 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 21:34:30 -0700 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <20150409040547.GA10548@dbit.dbit.com> References: <5523AFAB.5080509@update.uu.se> <5523D82A.7080804@dunnington.plus.com> <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> <552427DC.3030602@dunnington.plus.com> <55242F13.9040605@update.uu.se> <552438C3.4010405@alum.mit.edu> <552439E6.8000306@update.uu.se> <5525F833.2010203@alum.mit.edu> <20150409040547.GA10548@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <55260156.3060808@alum.mit.edu> On 4/8/2015 9:05 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 08:55:31PM -0700, Don North wrote: >> (2) Logical mode. Your USB interface reads/parses the DEC STD 144 bad block >> table and does the appropriate revectoring of known bad blocks. On the host >> side you end up presenting what amounts to an RL02K-EF drive image. > DEC std 144 just lists the bad blocks, it doesn't revector them. The RT-11 > (only!!!) DL: driver does revectoring based on its own private table in block > 1 (so hilarity ensues if the disk you're reading isn't an RT-11 disk). But > that's important only because RT uses contiguous files -- all the other > OSes know how to avoid bad blocks cleanly so they don't need to live in > an error-free utopia. > > I'd think the way to handle dumb host software is to log bad blocks somewhere > but return all zeros (or real data if that's possible), so at least programs > won't crap out part way through a copy. But then you have to make sure you > read the error log before you assume it worked. > > I'd love to hear the results of running this device with E11. E11 does > pass error status through but other than with floppies, I don't get a lot > of chances to test those code paths. A while back I added a layer which > inserts fake bad blocks on purpose, just for testing a wad of PDP-11 > disk drivers I was writing. > > John Wilson > D Bit You are 100% correct ... I had it in my mind that '144 not only listed the bad sectors, but also provided a re-vector to a good replacement sector. My wishful thinking, I guess. But this is 100% wrong. I stand corrected and suitably red-faced. Don From wilson at dbit.com Wed Apr 8 23:50:47 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 00:50:47 -0400 Subject: RL02-USB Controller Status/Problem In-Reply-To: <55260156.3060808@alum.mit.edu> References: <5523FE32.5010600@update.uu.se> <55241231.6010808@dunnington.plus.com> <55242149.70009@update.uu.se> <552427DC.3030602@dunnington.plus.com> <55242F13.9040605@update.uu.se> <552438C3.4010405@alum.mit.edu> <552439E6.8000306@update.uu.se> <5525F833.2010203@alum.mit.edu> <20150409040547.GA10548@dbit.dbit.com> <55260156.3060808@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150409045047.GA12203@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 09:34:30PM -0700, Don North wrote: >I stand corrected and suitably red-faced. Wait I didn't mean to trigger that -- I was trying to fix the information, not you!!! All good. Personally I don't like the RT-11 DL:/DM: style revectoring anyway because it doesn't use skip sectors (like the RM80) or anything like that where the replacement sector is fairly local to the one being replaced. All the spares are in the final data track of the disk, so your supposedly beautiful contiguous files can end up being *ridiculously* fragmented. I'd rather just have a few FILE.BADs on the disk and steer clear of them. And in practice, lots of non-error-free RL02K-DCs turn out to be error-free. Even with -EFs, DEC didn't promise they'd *stay* error-free. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 8 23:57:43 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 04:57:43 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Monitor In-Reply-To: <0dfe01d0724e$42feba30$c8fc2e90$@ntlworld.com> References: <0dfe01d0724e$42feba30$c8fc2e90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > I have finally managed to get my hands on a TRS-80 Model 1. Trouble is, it > came without a monitor. I have been doing some searching to see if I can > find out what kind of monitor it is and I am left unsure. All I have found > so far is a statement which says it is a TV without a tuner. I am not sure > what that means. I still have a CRT TV, can that be made to work, or have I > bought something that I can't use? Did you get the PSU brick? That is a little harder (but only a little) to replicate? The TRS-80 M1 drives a normal [1] composite video monitor. The original one was an RCA portable TV that had had the tuner, etc, removed, but there is no reason why you have to use that. I am sure you have something that will work. [1] OK, US scan rates. 15770Hz horizontal, 60Hz vertical. But I've yet to find a composite monochrome monitor that can't be tweaked to do both US and European rates. The only trick is the video output connector on the M1. It's a 5 pin DIN socket. The connections are : 1 : +5V 4 : Composite video 2 ; N/C 5 : Ground 3 : N/C And of course the pins are numbered in that order on the connector/ -tony From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Apr 8 15:34:27 2015 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 22:34:27 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! Message-ID: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> Hi A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some storage rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for this (although I'm involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but things that people have interest in can be stored for "a while". Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: Unibus- and BI-bus boards (I'm will try to save these) 1/2"-tapes 2x DEC7000 RX01-floppies DEC5500 (labled ellen.lnt.dec.com) Vax 4000/300 A few RA90 MV3900+RA82+RL02 Sun-mice and Sun-SCSI-cables (lots) Annex3 Terminal Server VAXserver 3100 VAXstation 3100 Vax 4000/90 2x VAXstation 3100/76 Vax 4000/60 Infoserver 100 Sun CD-drive Mikrovax 3800 CI-cable 2x RF215 (disk towers) Mikrovax? 640QR? Vax 4000/500 HSC90 TU81+RA82 11/750 no PSU SDI cables 2 st Hawk-drives (ND511). Boards for Nord-100. Teleray terminal 2 Nord-10 CPU-boxes? There is also a VAX 8354 with RA72 that I'm going try and save myself, but I can't fit the cabinet in my garage. So if anyone seriously wants this, I'll let it go. There is also two RP07 that might get a new home locally, but it's not decided yet. The list might grow or shrink depending on what people claim or not. Here are some images: http://brain.brokenbrain.se/skrot_dh1/ Regards, Pontus. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 9 00:42:20 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 06:42:20 +0100 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5526113C.3080402@btinternet.com> Apart from the larger racks it looks a lot like my computer room. The 4000 series VAXes are fairly recent. At least in geological time. Apart from the larger racks a Luton van and three young hefty blokes could retrieve the rest Rod On 08/04/2015 21:34, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some > storage rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for this > (although I'm involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but things > that people have interest in can be stored for "a while". > > Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: > > Unibus- and BI-bus boards (I'm will try to save these) > 1/2"-tapes > 2x DEC7000 > RX01-floppies > DEC5500 (labled ellen.lnt.dec.com) > Vax 4000/300 > A few RA90 > MV3900+RA82+RL02 > Sun-mice and Sun-SCSI-cables (lots) > Annex3 Terminal Server > VAXserver 3100 > VAXstation 3100 > Vax 4000/90 > 2x VAXstation 3100/76 > Vax 4000/60 > Infoserver 100 > Sun CD-drive > Mikrovax 3800 > CI-cable > 2x RF215 (disk towers) > Mikrovax? 640QR? > Vax 4000/500 > HSC90 > TU81+RA82 > 11/750 no PSU > SDI cables > 2 st Hawk-drives (ND511). > Boards for Nord-100. > Teleray terminal > 2 Nord-10 CPU-boxes? > > There is also a VAX 8354 with RA72 that I'm going try and save myself, > but I can't fit the cabinet in my garage. So if anyone seriously wants > this, I'll let it go. > There is also two RP07 that might get a new home locally, but it's not > decided yet. > > The list might grow or shrink depending on what people claim or not. > > Here are some images: > http://brain.brokenbrain.se/skrot_dh1/ > > Regards, > Pontus. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 9 00:50:12 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 06:50:12 +0100 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <0e1301d07289$0bfb29c0$23f17d40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus > Sent: 08 April 2015 21:34 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts > Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! > > Hi > > A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some storage > rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for this (although I'm > involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but things that people have interest > in can be stored for "a while". > > Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: > > Unibus- and BI-bus boards (I'm will try to save these) 1/2"-tapes 2x DEC7000 > RX01-floppies > DEC5500 (labled ellen.lnt.dec.com) > Vax 4000/300 > A few RA90 > MV3900+RA82+RL02 > Sun-mice and Sun-SCSI-cables (lots) > Annex3 Terminal Server > VAXserver 3100 > VAXstation 3100 > Vax 4000/90 > 2x VAXstation 3100/76 > Vax 4000/60 > Infoserver 100 > Sun CD-drive > Mikrovax 3800 > CI-cable > 2x RF215 (disk towers) > Mikrovax? 640QR? > Vax 4000/500 > HSC90 > TU81+RA82 > 11/750 no PSU > SDI cables > 2 st Hawk-drives (ND511). > Boards for Nord-100. > Teleray terminal > 2 Nord-10 CPU-boxes? > > There is also a VAX 8354 with RA72 that I'm going try and save myself, but I > can't fit the cabinet in my garage. So if anyone seriously wants this, I'll let it go. > There is also two RP07 that might get a new home locally, but it's not decided > yet. > > The list might grow or shrink depending on what people claim or not. > > Here are some images: > http://brain.brokenbrain.se/skrot_dh1/ > > Regards, > Pontus. It would be a shame to scrap any of this, but to scrap an 11/750 would be particularly sad. Unfortunately I have no way to take an 11/750 so I do hope it gets saved. Would you be able to save the boards from any of the machines that would otherwise be scrapped? I am guessing RX01 floppies may not be easy to find either. There are bits I would be interested in, but as I live in the UK and shipping isn't possible it looks like I will have to pass on them :-( Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 9 00:58:34 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 06:58:34 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Monitor In-Reply-To: References: <0dfe01d0724e$42feba30$c8fc2e90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0e1401d0728a$371a2ce0$a54e86a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 09 April 2015 05:58 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: TRS-80 Model 1 Monitor > > > > I have finally managed to get my hands on a TRS-80 Model 1. Trouble > > is, it came without a monitor. I have been doing some searching to see > > if I can find out what kind of monitor it is and I am left unsure. All > > I have found so far is a statement which says it is a TV without a > > tuner. I am not sure what that means. I still have a CRT TV, can that > > be made to work, or have I bought something that I can't use? > > Did you get the PSU brick? That is a little harder (but only a little) to replicate? > Yes, I did. > The TRS-80 M1 drives a normal [1] composite video monitor. The original one > was an RCA portable TV that had had the tuner, etc, removed, but there is no > reason why you have to use that. I am sure you have something that will work. > > [1] OK, US scan rates. 15770Hz horizontal, 60Hz vertical. But I've yet to find a > composite monochrome monitor that can't be tweaked to do both US and > European rates. > > The only trick is the video output connector on the M1. It's a 5 pin DIN socket. > The connections are : > > 1 : +5V > 4 : Composite video > 2 ; N/C > 5 : Ground > 3 : N/C > I have just noticed that it came with a little box with a cable with a DIN connector on one side and a cable with a coax plug for TV aerials on the other. It is unmarked and looks a bit "custom". Inside there is a UHF modulator. So it looks like someone made an RF modulator to allow it to work with an ordinary analog TV. Thanks Rob From abs at absd.org Thu Apr 9 04:04:14 2015 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:04:14 +0100 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <0e1301d07289$0bfb29c0$23f17d40$@ntlworld.com> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <0e1301d07289$0bfb29c0$23f17d40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 9 April 2015 at 06:50, Robert Jarratt wrote: > It would be a shame to scrap any of this, but to scrap an 11/750 would be particularly sad. Unfortunately I have no way to take an 11/750 so I do hope it gets saved. > > Would you be able to save the boards from any of the machines that would otherwise be scrapped? I am guessing RX01 floppies may not be easy to find either. > > There are bits I would be interested in, but as I live in the UK and shipping isn't possible it looks like I will have to pass on them :-( Mmmm.. road trip. Pity I only have a mini :) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 04:28:32 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:28:32 +0100 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <0e1301d07289$0bfb29c0$23f17d40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <09db01d072a7$8d0515d0$a70f4170$@gmail.com> I have a "friend" who lives in Sweden, and who owns some horrid pick up. I wander if he could be persuaded to drive over..... Dave G4UGM (Yes is another Ham who moved out from Manchester, and yes Radio Amateurs are a sort of special Masonic Guild..) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David > Brownlee > Sent: 09 April 2015 10:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! > > On 9 April 2015 at 06:50, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > It would be a shame to scrap any of this, but to scrap an 11/750 would be > particularly sad. Unfortunately I have no way to take an 11/750 so I do hope it > gets saved. > > > > Would you be able to save the boards from any of the machines that would > otherwise be scrapped? I am guessing RX01 floppies may not be easy to find > either. > > > > There are bits I would be interested in, but as I live in the UK and shipping > isn't possible it looks like I will have to pass on them :-( > > Mmmm.. road trip. Pity I only have a mini :) From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 9 04:44:40 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 11:44:40 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <09db01d072a7$8d0515d0$a70f4170$@gmail.com> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <0e1301d07289$0bfb29c0$23f17d40$@ntlworld.com> <09db01d072a7$8d0515d0$a70f4170$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150409094440.GD10284@Update.UU.SE> Talk to him :) Let me know. On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 10:28:32AM +0100, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I have a "friend" who lives in Sweden, and who owns some horrid pick up. I wander if he could be persuaded to drive over..... > > Dave > G4UGM > > (Yes is another Ham who moved out from Manchester, and yes Radio Amateurs are a sort of special Masonic Guild..) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David > > Brownlee > > Sent: 09 April 2015 10:04 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! > > > > On 9 April 2015 at 06:50, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > It would be a shame to scrap any of this, but to scrap an 11/750 would be > > particularly sad. Unfortunately I have no way to take an 11/750 so I do hope it > > gets saved. > > > > > > Would you be able to save the boards from any of the machines that would > > otherwise be scrapped? I am guessing RX01 floppies may not be easy to find > > either. > > > > > > There are bits I would be interested in, but as I live in the UK and shipping > > isn't possible it looks like I will have to pass on them :-( > > > > Mmmm.. road trip. Pity I only have a mini :) > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 9 03:36:33 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:36:33 +0200 Subject: VAX 8354 Message-ID: <20150409083633.GC10284@Update.UU.SE> Hi I'm trying to save a MicroVAX 8350. Seen to the left here: http://brain.brokenbrain.se/skrot_dh1/20150407_100417.jpg It's in a DEC half-rack which I sadly don't have room for. So I will ask to have the CPU module only and any specific rackheaders (for ethernet and other things, if any). Is there anything else about that rack specific to the 8350 ? I have RA72 disks already. And other DEC racks to mount it in. /P From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 9 06:52:44 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 07:52:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: settings for DEC M7506 (MSV11-M) Message-ID: <20150409115244.3D68818C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Turnbull > Does anyone have a description of the switch settings for a QBus > MSV11-M (aka MSV1M) memory card (M7506)? > .. I can't find the manual ... or any useful notes anywhere. How odd. I've looked through every plausible DEC QBUS document I've got, and none mention the MSV11-M! They all jump straight from the MSV11-L to the MSV11-P. E.g. the "Microcomputer Products Handbook" from 1985 has the MSV11-L, then the MSV11-P, then the MSV11-Q. (Although it doesn't have the MSV11-J either, though - although my MSV11-J manual says the first version was '85.) I wonder why? Was the MSV11-M a later card? (Well, it must have been...) There's a Micro-Note (#28) from June '85 which mentions the MSV11-M, so it's not _that_ late. However, e.g. the "Supermicrosystems Handbook", from 1986, mentions the MSV11-J, then the MSV11-Q, then the MSV11-P! I wonder why they left it out? It provides up to 1MB on a dual card, whereas the MSV11-P only does 512KB on a quad card? So it's not as if it were already obsolete by 1986 - it's clearly better than something they _did_ include! Very odd. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 9 07:07:47 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 08:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UK PDP11 wanted Message-ID: <20150409120747.449BF18C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Turnbull >> Technically, that's an 11/83 CPU... > Nope, it's only 15MHz ... and the MSV11-Q memory isn't PMI, so it's an > 11/73. A discussion as to whether the addition of second board can change a first board from an A to a B would I suspect be non-productive, so I will pass over that point. :-) One thing that I am curious about is the 15MHz aspect: what did DEC (if you recall) call a 15MHz M8190 paired with PMI memory? (Recalling our prior discussion, which I am too lazy to look up and give a pointer to, about how all the M8190's can apparently do PMI.) Did they (or would they) have regarded that as an 11/83, or did only the 18MHz version get the 11/83 moniker? (Too many different configurations - 15/18, PMI/non-PMI - and not enough names!) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 9 07:49:11 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 08:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap Message-ID: <20150409124911.0E00518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Degnan > These are best for someone who has experience cleaning a "barn find" > ... > * items contains/contained a rodent nest. Those who missed out on this deal may find this sequel comforting. There was one aspect of this (which Bill alluded to somewhat eliptically - perhaps out of delicacy, or perhaps he assumed that anyone who'd done one of these would already realize the full implications :-), but which didn't really impress itself upon me until I started the ride home - at which point I started to get olfactory clues. Yep, some of you know what I'm talking about. Animal urine. Of the three boxes, one (the '11/44' - it was actually just a BA11-K) was totally sodden inside (those nests are basically giant sponges), and one of the 11/34's was half-sodden. The thing about animal urine that's really a problem is not the smell, or the mess - it's that it's _incredibly_ corrosive. >From the condition of a couple of the cards which had gotten the worst, I think there was actually some galvanic activity between the copper traces, and something else - maybe the iron in the chassis? Traces were quite literally eaten right off the cards. You can see the trace heading towards one of the gold-plated contact fingers, and then - poof! - it disappears. Dozens of traces on those two cards have big gaps in them. Although now that I think about it, it couldn't have been galvanic activity which dissolved the copper in the traces; if I remember my inorganic chem correctly, iron is above copper on the galvanic activity scale. But anyway, Also, totally amazingly, quite a few of the gold-plated contact fingers also have damage! One is quite bad - although luckily I think there's a patch left where the contact would be, so that can probably be saved. Whatever was going on must have eaten the copper out from underneath, and then the gold just washed away. So I think all those traces can be repaired, if there's ever a use for that interface (an RH11). Just a lot of wires to solder in.... The other problem is the backplanes. DEC boxes put the backplanes at the bottom, so these nests were resting on the backplanes. Having cleaned them off (well, stage 1 cleaning), I _think_ that, amazingly enough, the contact pins are OK. (Now that I think about it, they are tin-plated - so there's the other end of the galvanic activity. Ah, well, better to eat the traces than the contact pins - those would be almost _impossible_ to repair.) The real problem is that there's 'grup' (a Dave Clark neologism) in the thin space between the plastic contact pin housing blocks and the PCB. Needless to say, one can't take the PCB off to get in there... So my plan of action is to stick them in water for a couple of days, and then use a water jet to try and get down in the thin gap between the contact blocks and the PCB, to clean it out. Does this sound OK? I can't think of a reason why immersing a backplane in fresh water for a couple of days would do it any harm, but maybe I'm missing something? I just think it's critical to recovering these to get as much out of that area as I possibly can. If an open develops somehow, well, that can easily be fixed with a wire. But a short.... you're screwed. Moral of the story: if you're going to store your antique computers in a barn - make sure to keep the rodents out! Noel From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Apr 9 07:50:07 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 14:50:07 +0200 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: <20150409120747.449BF18C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150409120747.449BF18C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150409125007.GD96002@beast.freibergnet.de> Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Pete Turnbull > > >> Technically, that's an 11/83 CPU... > > > Nope, it's only 15MHz ... and the MSV11-Q memory isn't PMI, so it's an > > 11/73. > > A discussion as to whether the addition of second board can change a first > board from an A to a B would I suspect be non-productive, so I will pass over > that point. :-) > > One thing that I am curious about is the 15MHz aspect: what did DEC (if you > recall) call a 15MHz M8190 paired with PMI memory? (Recalling our prior > discussion, which I am too lazy to look up and give a pointer to, about how > all the M8190's can apparently do PMI.) Did they (or would they) have > regarded that as an 11/83, or did only the 18MHz version get the 11/83 > moniker? (Too many different configurations - 15/18, PMI/non-PMI - and not > enough names!) > > Noel Don't know. ..but I have an ex - 15Mhz M8190 with FPU here, put a newer J11 (-008) on it, changed the xtal und use it with PMI memory as an 11/83. Tested it with xxdp,rt11 and 2.11BSD over a long time, no problems at all. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Apr 9 07:52:31 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:52:31 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <09db01d072a7$8d0515d0$a70f4170$@gmail.com> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <0e1301d07289$0bfb29c0$23f17d40$@ntlworld.com> <09db01d072a7$8d0515d0$a70f4170$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5526760F.6000505@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-09 11:28, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I have a "friend" who lives in Sweden, and who owns some horrid pick up. I wander if he could be persuaded to drive over..... I hope you are aware that Sweden is pretty big, and Lule? is rather far north... It's about 900km from Stockholm... It will take a very long day to just drive one way with a pick up... You'd need a minimum of two days for a trip there and back from Stockholm. If you live further south in Sweden, you might want to add another day to it. (I'd probably use three days just from Stockholm, if I were to estimate things...) Johnny > > Dave > G4UGM > > (Yes is another Ham who moved out from Manchester, and yes Radio Amateurs are a sort of special Masonic Guild..) > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David >> Brownlee >> Sent: 09 April 2015 10:04 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! >> >> On 9 April 2015 at 06:50, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>> It would be a shame to scrap any of this, but to scrap an 11/750 would be >> particularly sad. Unfortunately I have no way to take an 11/750 so I do hope it >> gets saved. >>> >>> Would you be able to save the boards from any of the machines that would >> otherwise be scrapped? I am guessing RX01 floppies may not be easy to find >> either. >>> >>> There are bits I would be interested in, but as I live in the UK and shipping >> isn't possible it looks like I will have to pass on them :-( >> >> Mmmm.. road trip. Pity I only have a mini :) > From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Apr 9 07:55:02 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:55:02 +0200 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: <20150409120747.449BF18C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150409120747.449BF18C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <552676A6.8010301@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-09 14:07, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Pete Turnbull > > >> Technically, that's an 11/83 CPU... > > > Nope, it's only 15MHz ... and the MSV11-Q memory isn't PMI, so it's an > > 11/73. > > A discussion as to whether the addition of second board can change a first > board from an A to a B would I suspect be non-productive, so I will pass over > that point. :-) > > One thing that I am curious about is the 15MHz aspect: what did DEC (if you > recall) call a 15MHz M8190 paired with PMI memory? (Recalling our prior > discussion, which I am too lazy to look up and give a pointer to, about how > all the M8190's can apparently do PMI.) Did they (or would they) have > regarded that as an 11/83, or did only the 18MHz version get the 11/83 > moniker? (Too many different configurations - 15/18, PMI/non-PMI - and not > enough names!) As far as I know, any CPU with PMI memory would be called an 11/83, even if running that 15MHz. Johnny From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 9 08:36:54 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:36:54 +0100 Subject: settings for DEC M7506 (MSV11-M) In-Reply-To: <20150409115244.3D68818C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150409115244.3D68818C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55268076.4030809@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/04/2015 12:52, Noel Chiappa wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull > > Does anyone have a description of the switch settings for a QBus > > MSV11-M (aka MSV1M) memory card (M7506)? > > .. I can't find the manual ... or any useful notes anywhere. > How odd. I've looked through every plausible DEC QBUS document I've got, and > none mention the MSV11-M! Yes, same here :-( > I wonder why they left it out? It provides up to 1MB on a dual card, whereas > the MSV11-P only does 512KB on a quad card? So it's not as if it were already > obsolete by 1986 - it's clearly better than something they _did_ include! Odd indeed. And mine's an -MB (the full meg), so it would be useful. But apparently there was a manual so I live in hope... -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 9 08:48:33 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:48:33 +0100 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: <20150409120747.449BF18C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150409120747.449BF18C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55268331.70008@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/04/2015 13:07, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Pete Turnbull > > >> Technically, that's an 11/83 CPU... > > > Nope, it's only 15MHz ... and the MSV11-Q memory isn't PMI, so it's an > > 11/73. > A discussion as to whether the addition of second board can change a first > board from an A to a B would I suspect be non-productive, so I will pass over > that point. :-) Are you confusing it with a KDJ11-A - a dual-height board which is always an 11/73? But this is a KDJ11-B, quad-height, which can be either 11/73 or 11/83. This has been discussed a few times here on ClassicCmp, and elsewhere on DEC boards. Basically what makes the difference is whether it's using PMI memory or QBus memory. Originally 11/73s were sold as 15MHz units in a non-PMI config. Originally 11/83s were the same card[1] but running at 18MHz units in a PMI config. If you change the config to not use PMI, an 11/83 becomes an 11/73. [1] there are some early revisions that wouldn't work properly in all systems and where the DCJ11 wouldn't run at 18MHz or support a FPU > One thing that I am curious about is the 15MHz aspect: what did DEC (if you > recall) call a 15MHz M8190 paired with PMI memory? An 11/83, because that's what all diagnostics, bootROMs, XXDP, RT-11 RESORC, etc would report - assuming the PMI memory is ABOVE the CPU. But as far as I know DEC never sold them as such. All the ones sold with 15MHz clocks were AFAIK sold with non-PMI memory. And all the ones sold with an 18MHz crystal were sold with PMI memory as 11/83. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 9 10:14:29 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:14:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: <20150409124911.0E00518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150409124911.0E00518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Apr 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Bill Degnan > > > These are best for someone who has experience cleaning a "barn find" > > ... > > * items contains/contained a rodent nest. > > Those who missed out on this deal may find this sequel comforting. > > There was one aspect of this (which Bill alluded to somewhat eliptically > - perhaps out of delicacy, or perhaps he assumed that anyone who'd done > one of these would already realize the full implications :-), but which > didn't really impress itself upon me until I started the ride home - at > which point I started to get olfactory clues. Yep, some of you know what > I'm talking about. > > Animal urine. > > Of the three boxes, one (the '11/44' - it was actually just a BA11-K) > was totally sodden inside (those nests are basically giant sponges), and > one of the 11/34's was half-sodden. The thing about animal urine that's > really a problem is not the smell, or the mess - it's that it's > _incredibly_ corrosive. > > From the condition of a couple of the cards which had gotten the worst, > I think there was actually some galvanic activity between the copper > traces, and something else - maybe the iron in the chassis? Traces were > quite literally eaten right off the cards. You can see the trace heading > towards one of the gold-plated contact fingers, and then - poof! - it > disappears. Dozens of traces on those two cards have big gaps in them. > > Although now that I think about it, it couldn't have been galvanic > activity which dissolved the copper in the traces; if I remember my > inorganic chem correctly, iron is above copper on the galvanic activity > scale. But anyway, > > Also, totally amazingly, quite a few of the gold-plated contact fingers > also have damage! One is quite bad - although luckily I think there's a > patch left where the contact would be, so that can probably be saved. > Whatever was going on must have eaten the copper out from underneath, > and then the gold just washed away. > > So I think all those traces can be repaired, if there's ever a use for > that interface (an RH11). Just a lot of wires to solder in.... > > > The other problem is the backplanes. DEC boxes put the backplanes at the > bottom, so these nests were resting on the backplanes. Having cleaned > them off (well, stage 1 cleaning), I _think_ that, amazingly enough, the > contact pins are OK. (Now that I think about it, they are tin-plated - > so there's the other end of the galvanic activity. Ah, well, better to > eat the traces than the contact pins - those would be almost > _impossible_ to repair.) > > The real problem is that there's 'grup' (a Dave Clark neologism) in the > thin space between the plastic contact pin housing blocks and the PCB. > Needless to say, one can't take the PCB off to get in there... > > So my plan of action is to stick them in water for a couple of days, and > then use a water jet to try and get down in the thin gap between the > contact blocks and the PCB, to clean it out. > > Does this sound OK? I can't think of a reason why immersing a backplane > in fresh water for a couple of days would do it any harm, but maybe I'm > missing something? My usual cleaning process for such stuff is to give it a bath in simple green (either the 1:10 I keep mixed up in spray bottles or 50/50 in a bucket if the rodent mess is /really/ bad), scrub lightly with a small nylon bristle brush, and rise. Once clean of the rodent mess, scrub at the corrosion again with a baking soda and water paste mix and rinse again with clean water. The cleaning process might well remove some loose copper, but such traces are going to already be beyond salvage anyway. There /is/ actually a source for replacement gold fingers (and copper trace material), but that sort of stuff can get expensive if you need to replace a lot of them. You might try contacting http://circuitmedic.com/ and see if they have any replacement gold fingers the correct width. From chrise at pobox.com Thu Apr 9 10:54:05 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:54:05 -0500 Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: <20150409124911.0E00518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150409124911.0E00518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150409155405.GJ13153@n0jcf.net> ah... "Barn Fresh". Plenty of experience with that here. Personally, I think mice, like many of us, have a special affinity for DEC equipment. I brought home an RX02 once that was severely affected. In the end, with not much to loose, I pressure washed it in my driveway :-) The PCB suffers from the same re-etching of traces you describe and someday I will fix it up. I believe the drives have actually survived. The power supply did not. The only other thing I found more "interesting" was a very large stash of RL01, RL02 and RK05 packs we came across, in a pole barn, that were completely infested with sugar ants. These packs were up on a shelf in the barn, not laying on the ground, so the ants had to seek them out. They had built tunnels (by bringing in the sand) in, on and around these packs and had very well established colonies in most of them. All I can figure is there was some chemical in the pack itself or the boxes or wrapping they were in that attracted them. Incredible mess. There is a special place in hell for people who leave this gear to rot and become infested in places like this. Chris On Thursday (04/09/2015 at 08:49AM -0400), Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Bill Degnan > > > These are best for someone who has experience cleaning a "barn find" > > ... > > * items contains/contained a rodent nest. > > Those who missed out on this deal may find this sequel comforting. > > There was one aspect of this (which Bill alluded to somewhat eliptically - > perhaps out of delicacy, or perhaps he assumed that anyone who'd done one of > these would already realize the full implications :-), but which didn't > really impress itself upon me until I started the ride home - at which point > I started to get olfactory clues. Yep, some of you know what I'm talking > about. > > Animal urine. > > Of the three boxes, one (the '11/44' - it was actually just a BA11-K) was > totally sodden inside (those nests are basically giant sponges), and one of > the 11/34's was half-sodden. The thing about animal urine that's really a > problem is not the smell, or the mess - it's that it's _incredibly_ corrosive. > > >From the condition of a couple of the cards which had gotten the worst, I > think there was actually some galvanic activity between the copper traces, > and something else - maybe the iron in the chassis? Traces were quite > literally eaten right off the cards. You can see the trace heading towards > one of the gold-plated contact fingers, and then - poof! - it disappears. > Dozens of traces on those two cards have big gaps in them. > > Although now that I think about it, it couldn't have been galvanic activity > which dissolved the copper in the traces; if I remember my inorganic chem > correctly, iron is above copper on the galvanic activity scale. But anyway, > > Also, totally amazingly, quite a few of the gold-plated contact fingers also > have damage! One is quite bad - although luckily I think there's a patch left > where the contact would be, so that can probably be saved. Whatever was going > on must have eaten the copper out from underneath, and then the gold just > washed away. > > So I think all those traces can be repaired, if there's ever a use for that > interface (an RH11). Just a lot of wires to solder in.... > > > The other problem is the backplanes. DEC boxes put the backplanes at the > bottom, so these nests were resting on the backplanes. Having cleaned them off > (well, stage 1 cleaning), I _think_ that, amazingly enough, the contact pins > are OK. (Now that I think about it, they are tin-plated - so there's the other > end of the galvanic activity. Ah, well, better to eat the traces than the > contact pins - those would be almost _impossible_ to repair.) > > The real problem is that there's 'grup' (a Dave Clark neologism) in the thin > space between the plastic contact pin housing blocks and the PCB. Needless to > say, one can't take the PCB off to get in there... > > So my plan of action is to stick them in water for a couple of days, and > then use a water jet to try and get down in the thin gap between the contact > blocks and the PCB, to clean it out. > > Does this sound OK? I can't think of a reason why immersing a backplane in > fresh water for a couple of days would do it any harm, but maybe I'm missing > something? > > I just think it's critical to recovering these to get as much out of that > area as I possibly can. If an open develops somehow, well, that can easily be > fixed with a wire. But a short.... you're screwed. > > > Moral of the story: if you're going to store your antique computers in a barn > - make sure to keep the rodents out! > > Noel -- Chris Elmquist From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 9 11:23:41 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 11:23:41 -0500 Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: References: <20150409124911.0E00518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <001101d072e1$8b2266c0$a1673440$@classiccmp.org> People wrote... ----- > So my plan of action is to stick them in water for a couple of days, > and then use a water jet to try and get down in the thin gap between > the contact blocks and the PCB, to clean it out. > > Does this sound OK? I can't think of a reason why immersing a > backplane in fresh water for a couple of days would do it any harm, > but maybe I'm missing something? My usual cleaning process for such stuff is to give it a bath in simple green (either the 1:10 I keep mixed up in spray bottles or 50/50 in a bucket if the rodent mess is /really/ bad), scrub lightly with a small nylon bristle brush, and rise. Once clean of the rodent mess, scrub at the corrosion again with a baking soda and water paste mix and rinse again with clean water. The cleaning process might well remove some loose copper, but such traces are going to already be beyond salvage anyway. ----- My 2 millidollars worth: Cleaning with soap and water and a brush is a good idea. But remember that water has minerals in it and leaving it on the board to just dry will introduce corrosion over time as well. I wash/scrub heavily "soiled" boards with soap and water, but then douse them very very liberally with denatured alcohol. Denatured alcohol has the property of getting into every tiny nook and crevice and forcing the water out - so nothing potentially corrosive can be left behind to oxidize, etc. J From tingox at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 10:05:42 2015 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 17:05:42 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Hi, On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 10:34 PM, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some storage > rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for this (although I'm > involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but things that people have > interest in can be stored for "a while". > > Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: > > 2 st Hawk-drives (ND511). Hmm, what size (both physical and logical) are these? > Boards for Nord-100. Is there a list of the boards somewhere? I might be interested. > 2 Nord-10 CPU-boxes? Unfortunately, I don't have room for these. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Oslo, Norway From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Apr 9 11:45:40 2015 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 17:45:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: <001101d072e1$8b2266c0$a1673440$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150409124911.0E00518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001101d072e1$8b2266c0$a1673440$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Apr 2015, Jay West wrote: > I wash/scrub heavily "soiled" boards with soap and water, but then douse > them very very liberally with denatured alcohol. Denatured alcohol has the > property of getting into every tiny nook and crevice and forcing the water > out - so nothing potentially corrosive can be left behind to oxidize, etc. Isn't isopropanol more suited for that as being highly hygroscopic it sucks in water naturally before evaporating and taking it away with itself? It's used professionally for cleaning PCBs in production too. Maciej From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 9 12:14:48 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 13:14:48 -0400 Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: References: <20150409124911.0E00518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001101d072e1$8b2266c0$a1673440$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On Apr 9, 2015, at 12:45 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > On Thu, 9 Apr 2015, Jay West wrote: > >> I wash/scrub heavily "soiled" boards with soap and water, but then douse >> them very very liberally with denatured alcohol. Denatured alcohol has the >> property of getting into every tiny nook and crevice and forcing the water >> out - so nothing potentially corrosive can be left behind to oxidize, etc. > > Isn't isopropanol more suited for that as being highly hygroscopic it > sucks in water naturally before evaporating and taking it away with > itself? It's used professionally for cleaning PCBs in production too. Ethanol does the same. I?m not sure why isopropanol would be more popular for this use in industrial settings. Perhaps because some plastics tolerate it better? (Plexiglas doesn?t like ethanol, though it?s unusual in that respect.) The classic organic chemistry lab procedure for cleaning/drying stuff is: (1) rinse with water, (2) rinse with ethanol, (3) rinse with ether. Step 2 takes away the water; step 3 takes away the ethanol. paul From jonas at otter.se Thu Apr 9 12:35:40 2015 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 19:35:40 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <09db01d072a7$8d0515d0$a70f4170$@gmail.com> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <0e1301d07289$0bfb29c0$23f17d40$@ntlworld.com> <09db01d072a7$8d0515d0$a70f4170$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5526B86C.8030204@otter.se> On 2015-04-09 11:28, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I have a "friend" who lives in Sweden, and who owns some horrid pick up. I wander if he could be persuaded to drive over..... > > Dave > G4UGM > > (Yes is another Ham who moved out from Manchester, and yes Radio Amateurs are a sort of special Masonic Guild..) > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David >> Brownlee >> Sent: 09 April 2015 10:04 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! >> >> On 9 April 2015 at 06:50, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>> It would be a shame to scrap any of this, but to scrap an 11/750 would be >> particularly sad. Unfortunately I have no way to take an 11/750 so I do hope it >> gets saved. >>> Would you be able to save the boards from any of the machines that would >> otherwise be scrapped? I am guessing RX01 floppies may not be easy to find >> either. >>> There are bits I would be interested in, but as I live in the UK and shipping >> isn't possible it looks like I will have to pass on them :-( >> >> Mmmm.. road trip. Pity I only have a mini :) > Depending on where in Sweden your "friend" lives, he might need a *lot* of persuasion :o Lule? is right up in the very north of Sweden, for me on the west coast of Sweden (Gothenburg) it is a 1250 km drive one way, i.e. a two-day trip or 14 hours of non-stop driving in one day. Sweden is a country with very long distances. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 9 13:02:54 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 14:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: References: <20150409124911.0E00518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001101d072e1$8b2266c0$a1673440$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201504091802.OAA03962@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The classic organic chemistry lab procedure for cleaning/drying stuff > is: (1) rinse with water, (2) rinse with ethanol, (3) rinse with > ether. Step 2 takes away the water; step 3 takes away the ethanol. Interesting. My experience, back when I took organic chem, was (1) water, (2) acetone. I wonder if the relevant difference is temporal or per-lab or what.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Apr 9 13:34:28 2015 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 20:34:28 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5526C634.50109@update.uu.se> On 04/09/2015 05:05 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 10:34 PM, Pontus wrote: >> Hi >> >> A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some storage >> rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for this (although I'm >> involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but things that people have >> interest in can be stored for "a while". >> >> Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: >> >> 2 st Hawk-drives (ND511). > Hmm, what size (both physical and logical) are these? It's the big orange box here: http://brain.brokenbrain.se/skrot_dh1/20150407_100354.jpg I'm told it is similar to an RL-drive, so 5-10MB. However, these have been claimed. > >> Boards for Nord-100. > Is there a list of the boards somewhere? I might be interested. These have also been claimed, you can get you int touch with the claimant. He is a good guy with lots of ND stuff (and reads this list). > >> 2 Nord-10 CPU-boxes? > Unfortunately, I don't have room for these. > Luckily, these will be saved. /P From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 13:36:07 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 19:36:07 +0100 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <5526760F.6000505@update.uu.se> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <0e1301d07289$0bfb29c0$23f17d40$@ntlworld.com> <09db01d072a7$8d0515d0$a70f4170$@gmail.com> <5526760F.6000505@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <0aef01d072f4$0b56f7e0$2204e7a0$@gmail.com> John is in Sundsvall so near enough half way between..... ... but that?s a long way to drive for a VAX Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny > Billquist > Sent: 09 April 2015 13:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! > > On 2015-04-09 11:28, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > I have a "friend" who lives in Sweden, and who owns some horrid pick up. I > wander if he could be persuaded to drive over..... > > I hope you are aware that Sweden is pretty big, and Lule? is rather far > north... It's about 900km from Stockholm... It will take a very long day to just > drive one way with a pick up... You'd need a minimum of two days for a trip > there and back from Stockholm. If you live further south in Sweden, you > might want to add another day to it. > > (I'd probably use three days just from Stockholm, if I were to estimate > things...) > > Johnny > > > > > Dave > > G4UGM > > > > (Yes is another Ham who moved out from Manchester, and yes Radio > > Amateurs are a sort of special Masonic Guild..) > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> David Brownlee > >> Sent: 09 April 2015 10:04 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! > >> > >> On 9 April 2015 at 06:50, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > >>> It would be a shame to scrap any of this, but to scrap an 11/750 > >>> would be > >> particularly sad. Unfortunately I have no way to take an 11/750 so I > >> do hope it gets saved. > >>> > >>> Would you be able to save the boards from any of the machines that > >>> would > >> otherwise be scrapped? I am guessing RX01 floppies may not be easy to > >> find either. > >>> > >>> There are bits I would be interested in, but as I live in the UK and > >>> shipping > >> isn't possible it looks like I will have to pass on them :-( > >> > >> Mmmm.. road trip. Pity I only have a mini :) > > From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 13:51:30 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 13:51:30 -0500 Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: <201504091802.OAA03962@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20150409124911.0E00518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001101d072e1$8b2266c0$a1673440$@classiccmp.org> <201504091802.OAA03962@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Apr 9, 2015 1:03 PM, "Mouse" wrote: > > > The classic organic chemistry lab procedure for cleaning/drying stuff > > is: (1) rinse with water, (2) rinse with ethanol, (3) rinse with > > ether. Step 2 takes away the water; step 3 takes away the ethanol. > > Interesting. My experience, back when I took organic chem, was (1) > water, (2) acetone. I wonder if the relevant difference is temporal or > per-lab or what.... In our microelectronics lab, we rinse with acetone, isopropanol, methanol (or ethanol), deionized water, and finally dry with nitrogen. For extra cleaning, a piranha solution is made with a mix of sulfuric acid and 30% hydrogen peroxide. I'm sure this all differs from lab to lab, and particularly depending one you are trying to avoid in terms of contaminants. In our case, it's metal ions like sodium and potassium. Kyle From roeapeterson at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 14:01:27 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 13:01:27 -0600 Subject: MSV11-L switch settings Message-ID: <9A05B505-DC9A-47E4-B800-52F9AFB39869@gmail.com> It shouldn't be too difficult to figure out the switches. Does the card work at all with all the switches in the open position? It would help if you could provide decent pics of both sides of the board. Hoping to help... From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Thu Apr 9 14:33:19 2015 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 14:33:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle Message-ID: I thought I'd drop a note after visiting the LCM on Saturday. I cannot endorse this museum enough, I had a complete blast. I latched onto a tour with a new docent by the name of Aaron who was truly the nicest chap - so much so we ended up BS'ing for 40 minutes after the tour. In a manner in which the other person isn't trying to get away, no less, which is probably novel for most of us. To be able to monkey about with a multi-rack 8, or a Nova was very cool. To stand next to a running Sigma9 or in front of a 13-rack KI10... I highly, highly recommend it to anyone who visits the area. Also, Rich, I see you: http://kiwigeek.com/misc/LCM2015/IMG_20150404_150503257.jpg - JP From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Thu Apr 9 14:32:24 2015 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (Syd Bolton) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 15:32:24 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle - Personal Computer Museum in Canada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3f8c6aaec7d79c8bcbc32b6f53b739e7@bfree.on.ca> And of course, don't forget that if you find yourself in Canada - you have to visit the Personal Computer Museum (http://www.pcmuseum.ca) - just a 1 hour drive from Toronto. On Thu, 9 Apr 2015 14:33:19 -0500 (CDT), JP Hindin wrote: > I thought I'd drop a note after visiting the LCM on Saturday. I > cannot > endorse this museum enough, I had a complete blast. > > I latched onto a tour with a new docent by the name of Aaron who was > truly > the nicest chap - so much so we ended up BS'ing for 40 minutes after > the tour. In a manner in which the other person isn't trying to get > away, > no less, which is probably novel for most of us. > > To be able to monkey about with a multi-rack 8, or a Nova was very > cool. To stand next to a running Sigma9 or in front of a 13-rack > KI10... I > highly, highly recommend it to anyone who visits the area. > > Also, Rich, I see you: > http://kiwigeek.com/misc/LCM2015/IMG_20150404_150503257.jpg > > - JP From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 14:48:11 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 15:48:11 -0400 Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle - Personal Computer Museum in Canada In-Reply-To: <3f8c6aaec7d79c8bcbc32b6f53b739e7@bfree.on.ca> References: <3f8c6aaec7d79c8bcbc32b6f53b739e7@bfree.on.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 3:32 PM, Syd Bolton wrote: > And of course, don't forget that if you find yourself in Canada - you have > to visit the Personal Computer Museum (http://www.pcmuseum.ca) - just a 1 > hour drive from Toronto. Brantford?!? The last time I went to Canada, I stayed with friends in Brantford. I don't think they know of this or they would have mentioned it. Thanks for sharing the link! (And I have yet to get to Seattle once, but the LCM is definitely on my list) -ethan From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 9 14:58:10 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 21:58:10 +0200 Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150409195810.GA20294@Update.UU.SE> I so want to go there!! Who wants to sponsor my trip? Or better, help me set up "LCM Sweden". I'll provide the PDP-10s, you provide the rest. /P On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 02:33:19PM -0500, JP Hindin wrote: > > I thought I'd drop a note after visiting the LCM on Saturday. I cannot > endorse this museum enough, I had a complete blast. > > I latched onto a tour with a new docent by the name of Aaron who was truly > the nicest chap - so much so we ended up BS'ing for 40 minutes after > the tour. In a manner in which the other person isn't trying to get away, > no less, which is probably novel for most of us. > > To be able to monkey about with a multi-rack 8, or a Nova was very > cool. To stand next to a running Sigma9 or in front of a 13-rack KI10... I > highly, highly recommend it to anyone who visits the area. > > Also, Rich, I see you: > http://kiwigeek.com/misc/LCM2015/IMG_20150404_150503257.jpg > > - JP > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 9 15:02:08 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 16:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle - Personal Computer Museum in Canada In-Reply-To: <3f8c6aaec7d79c8bcbc32b6f53b739e7@bfree.on.ca> References: <3f8c6aaec7d79c8bcbc32b6f53b739e7@bfree.on.ca> Message-ID: <201504092002.QAA10202@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > And of course, don't forget that if you find yourself in Canada - you > have to visit the Personal Computer Museum [...] I hope to, someday! Maybe even this May; looks as though I'm likely to be in Toronto for Anime North and may be able to swing a side trip. > just a 1 hour drive from Toronto. But note that "in Canada" very much != "within feasible distance of Toronto". We're four and a half timezones wide, and, even if we are not exactly equatorial, we're not nearly far enough from the equator for "4.5 timezones wide" to be that small. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 9 15:04:11 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 21:04:11 +0100 Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5526DB3B.8010304@btinternet.com> Nice display what was the DEC part number? On 09/04/2015 20:33, JP Hindin wrote: > I thought I'd drop a note after visiting the LCM on Saturday. I cannot > endorse this museum enough, I had a complete blast. > > I latched onto a tour with a new docent by the name of Aaron who was truly > the nicest chap - so much so we ended up BS'ing for 40 minutes after > the tour. In a manner in which the other person isn't trying to get away, > no less, which is probably novel for most of us. > > To be able to monkey about with a multi-rack 8, or a Nova was very > cool. To stand next to a running Sigma9 or in front of a 13-rack KI10... I > highly, highly recommend it to anyone who visits the area. > > Also, Rich, I see you: > http://kiwigeek.com/misc/LCM2015/IMG_20150404_150503257.jpg > > - JP > From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 9 15:05:37 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 16:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle In-Reply-To: <20150409195810.GA20294@Update.UU.SE> References: <20150409195810.GA20294@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Apr 2015, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I so want to go there!! > > Who wants to sponsor my trip? Or better, help me set up "LCM Sweden". > I'll provide the PDP-10s, you provide the rest. > Get me PDUs, a robot arm, and remote terminals and I'll help. ;) > /P > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 9 15:51:43 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 21:51:43 +0100 Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle - Personal Computer Museum in Canada In-Reply-To: <201504092002.QAA10202@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3f8c6aaec7d79c8bcbc32b6f53b739e7@bfree.on.ca> <201504092002.QAA10202@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: I have been to LCM a number of times. Most recently last year, the first time for me since it has fully opened to the public. It is indeed a great place, and I too got an extra tour of the non-public areas from the guide, after talking to her about some of the machines I have. Clearly they make time for enthusiasts, so well worth it for anyone on this list. Regards Rob On 9 April 2015 at 21:02, Mouse wrote: > > And of course, don't forget that if you find yourself in Canada - you > > have to visit the Personal Computer Museum [...] > > I hope to, someday! Maybe even this May; looks as though I'm likely to > be in Toronto for Anime North and may be able to swing a side trip. > > > just a 1 hour drive from Toronto. > > But note that "in Canada" very much != "within feasible distance of > Toronto". We're four and a half timezones wide, and, even if we are > not exactly equatorial, we're not nearly far enough from the equator > for "4.5 timezones wide" to be that small. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From fast79ta at yahoo.com Thu Apr 9 16:00:42 2015 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 15:00:42 -0600 Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle - Personal Computer Museum in Canada In-Reply-To: <3f8c6aaec7d79c8bcbc32b6f53b739e7@bfree.on.ca> References: <3f8c6aaec7d79c8bcbc32b6f53b739e7@bfree.on.ca> Message-ID: <015801d07308$3ec0f4f0$bc42ded0$@yahoo.com> I had the pleasure of stopping into the Brantford museum in September of last year for the open house, and even got a personalized tour of the basement from Syd. Luck would have it that we were visiting Toronto while the open house was on. It was quite the stash, and most of the gear was up and running, so you could play with it. Problem was, I wanted to take some of the stuff home with me.. Worth the visit for sure. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Syd Bolton Sent: 2015-04-09 1:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum in Seattle - Personal Computer Museum in Canada And of course, don't forget that if you find yourself in Canada - you have to visit the Personal Computer Museum (http://www.pcmuseum.ca) - just a 1 hour drive from Toronto. On Thu, 9 Apr 2015 14:33:19 -0500 (CDT), JP Hindin wrote: > I thought I'd drop a note after visiting the LCM on Saturday. I cannot > endorse this museum enough, I had a complete blast. > > I latched onto a tour with a new docent by the name of Aaron who was > truly the nicest chap - so much so we ended up BS'ing for 40 minutes > after the tour. In a manner in which the other person isn't trying to > get away, no less, which is probably novel for most of us. > > To be able to monkey about with a multi-rack 8, or a Nova was very > cool. To stand next to a running Sigma9 or in front of a 13-rack > KI10... I highly, highly recommend it to anyone who visits the area. > > Also, Rich, I see you: > http://kiwigeek.com/misc/LCM2015/IMG_20150404_150503257.jpg > > - JP From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Apr 9 16:06:47 2015 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 23:06:47 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150409210647.GE22731@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2015-04-08 22:34:27 +0200, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some > storage rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for > this (although I'm involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but > things that people have interest in can be stored for "a while". > > Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: > > 2x DEC7000 > DEC5500 (labled ellen.lnt.dec.com) > 11/750 no PSU I'd *love* getting my hands on specifically the larger systems, but it's well over 2000km (one way) from my location (Bielefeld area in Germany.) Anybody else interested in fetching stuff and maybe organizing a truck? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html the second : From rickb at bensene.com Thu Apr 9 16:28:24 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 14:28:24 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I thought I'd drop a note after visiting the LCM on Saturday. I cannot endorse > this museum enough, I had a complete blast. > I second this wholeheartedly. I've been to the museum twice. Both times were just amazing. Seeing a running Sigma9 system was truly stunning. The CDC6500 that they are in the midst of restoring, and the simple enormity of the project, is stunning. I know they will be successful in getting it running again. The huge PDP 10 that is up and running is mind-blowing. Having machines like the PDP 8/e system running OS/8 (they need to get MULTOS8 or TSS/8 running on it) and being able to sit down at them and play is wonderful. There's a nice PDP 11 system that you can also sit down and play with. The rows of machines like Commodore VIC-20, 64, Amiga; Atari 400/800, etc.; TRS 80's; Processor Tech SOL, and so many others, up and running just waiting for someone to come up and use them....it's just astounding. The static displays of vintage stuff like an unassembled Altair kit; Heathkit radio kits and evolution of storage technology are really neat. There's also a great area devoted to the history of Microsoft. It's really quite startling just how much software has come out of Microsoft. I think that they have examples of just about all of it. Paul Allen has made a great museum. The folks that staff the museum are very friendly, knowledgeable, and helpful. If you happen to be in Seattle, and have some time to spend (each time I was there far longer than I anticipated just because I was having so much fun that time just flew by), definitely go. I would venture to say that no one would go away disappointed. Become a member!. It helps support the museum, and gives you some nice perks for being a member. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From tingox at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 17:20:43 2015 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 00:20:43 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <5526C634.50109@update.uu.se> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <5526C634.50109@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Pontus wrote: > > It's the big orange box here: > > http://brain.brokenbrain.se/skrot_dh1/20150407_100354.jpg > > I'm told it is similar to an RL-drive, so 5-10MB. > > However, these have been claimed. Aha - that size. No worries - they're to big (and probably wrong vintage too) for my machines. >>> Boards for Nord-100. >> >> Is there a list of the boards somewhere? I might be interested. > > > These have also been claimed, you can get you int touch with the claimant. > He is a good guy with lots of ND stuff (and reads this list). Nice. >>> 2 Nord-10 CPU-boxes? >> >> Unfortunately, I don't have room for these. >> > > Luckily, these will be saved. Great to hear. -- Torfinn From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 18:35:14 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 18:35:14 -0500 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <0e1301d07289$0bfb29c0$23f17d40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <55270CB2.3070808@gmail.com> On 04/09/2015 04:04 AM, David Brownlee wrote: > Mmmm.. road trip. Pity I only have a mini :) Vax 4000's are on wheels, aren't they? Strap everything else to them and tow it all home... ;) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 9 18:49:23 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 17:49:23 -0600 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <55270CB2.3070808@gmail.com> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <0e1301d07289$0bfb29c0$23f17d40$@ntlworld.com> <55270CB2.3070808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55271003.9000303@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/9/2015 5:35 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/09/2015 04:04 AM, David Brownlee wrote: >> Mmmm.. road trip. Pity I only have a mini :) > > Vax 4000's are on wheels, aren't they? Strap everything else to them and > tow it all home... ;) Just remove the wheels, and live in the chassis. :) From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Apr 9 19:33:43 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 02:33:43 +0200 Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55271A67.6080808@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-09 21:33, JP Hindin wrote: > > I thought I'd drop a note after visiting the LCM on Saturday. I cannot > endorse this museum enough, I had a complete blast. > > I latched onto a tour with a new docent by the name of Aaron who was truly > the nicest chap - so much so we ended up BS'ing for 40 minutes after > the tour. In a manner in which the other person isn't trying to get away, > no less, which is probably novel for most of us. > > To be able to monkey about with a multi-rack 8, or a Nova was very > cool. To stand next to a running Sigma9 or in front of a 13-rack KI10... I > highly, highly recommend it to anyone who visits the area. > > Also, Rich, I see you: > http://kiwigeek.com/misc/LCM2015/IMG_20150404_150503257.jpg It's a fun place. Although, Rich, you still should get an RSX system up and running and networked. ;-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 9 19:35:56 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 20:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle In-Reply-To: <55271A67.6080808@update.uu.se> References: <55271A67.6080808@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > It's a fun place. Although, Rich, you still should get an RSX system up and > running and networked. ;-) > And provide any further SRI-NIC info the LCM has, if it has any! > Johnny > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From evan at snarc.net Thu Apr 9 19:51:27 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 20:51:27 -0400 Subject: Brian Kernighan @ VCF East Message-ID: <55271E8F.3050309@snarc.net> Big announcement! Wes Clark is unable to attend VCF East due to health. Naturally I hit the panic button. Wes, after all, was already our Plan B after Ted Nelson backed out, also due to personal matters. But we scrambled really hard in the past two days and landed K. :) From isking at uw.edu Thu Apr 9 20:21:06 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 18:21:06 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum in Seattle - Personal Computer Museum in Canada In-Reply-To: <015801d07308$3ec0f4f0$bc42ded0$@yahoo.com> References: <3f8c6aaec7d79c8bcbc32b6f53b739e7@bfree.on.ca> <015801d07308$3ec0f4f0$bc42ded0$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 2:00 PM, Joe wrote: > I had the pleasure of stopping into the Brantford museum in September of > last year for the open house, and even got a personalized tour of the > basement from Syd. Luck would have it that we were visiting Toronto while > the open house was on. > > It was quite the stash, and most of the gear was up and running, so you > could play with it. Problem was, I wanted to take some of the stuff home > with me.. > That's a problem? I'd call that a healthy obsession. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From roeapeterson at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 22:33:11 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 21:33:11 -0600 Subject: Brian Kernighan @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <55271E8F.3050309@snarc.net> References: <55271E8F.3050309@snarc.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 9, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Big announcement! > > Wes Clark is unable to attend VCF East due to health. > > Naturally I hit the panic button. Wes, after all, was already our Plan B after Ted Nelson backed out, also due to personal matters. > > But we scrambled really hard in the past two days and landed K. :) Yep, that does it. I'm going to be there. Seriously, Kernighan and Bell? I plan to grovel. From evan at snarc.net Thu Apr 9 22:54:55 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 23:54:55 -0400 Subject: Brian Kernighan @ VCF East In-Reply-To: References: <55271E8F.3050309@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5527498F.3000007@snarc.net> >> Big announcement! >> >> Wes Clark is unable to attend VCF East due to health. >> >> Naturally I hit the panic button. Wes, after all, was already our Plan B after Ted Nelson backed out, also due to personal matters. >> >> But we scrambled really hard in the past two days and landed K. :) > Yep, that does it. I'm going to be there. Seriously, Kernighan and Bell? I plan to grovel. Glad you're going, however, Gordon Bell is not. We never said he'd be there .... we did say we * asked * him to go and that he wasn't available. Kernighan is on Saturday morning (April 18). Sunday morning's speaker is Bob Frankston, who programmed a little thing called VisiCalc. :) Friday is 17 technical classes, free pizza, and the PDP-8 ceremony. From kirkbdavis at hush.com Thu Apr 9 23:00:34 2015 From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (kirkbdavis at hush.com) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 21:00:34 -0700 Subject: Brian Kernighan @ VCF East In-Reply-To: References: <55271E8F.3050309@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20150410040034.D8F2E401E3@smtp.hushmail.com> On April 9, 2015 at 8:32 PM, "Roe Peterson" wrote: > >> On Apr 9, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >> Big announcement! >> >> Wes Clark is unable to attend VCF East due to health. >> >> Naturally I hit the panic button. Wes, after all, was already >our Plan B after Ted Nelson backed out, also due to personal >matters. >> >> But we scrambled really hard in the past two days and landed K. >:) > >Yep, that does it. I'm going to be there. Seriously, Kernighan >and Bell? I plan to grovel. I'M NOT WORTHY! From roeapeterson at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 23:02:42 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 22:02:42 -0600 Subject: Brian Kernighan @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <5527498F.3000007@snarc.net> References: <55271E8F.3050309@snarc.net> <5527498F.3000007@snarc.net> Message-ID: <393DB2CD-F6D5-4503-BC9A-6D3111E1D05A@gmail.com> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 9:54 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> >>> But we scrambled really hard in the past two days and landed K. :) >> Yep, that does it. I'm going to be there. Seriously, Kernighan and Bell? I plan to grovel. > > Glad you're going, however, Gordon Bell is not. We never said he'd be there .... we did say we * asked * him to go and that he wasn't available. Right, I read it wrong. Doesn't matter, I've already done the Expedia thing. I really wanted to attend, schedules changed, I can get there now, and I just wish I could bring my 11/15. > > Kernighan is on Saturday morning (April 18). Sunday morning's speaker is Bob Frankston, who programmed a little thing called VisiCalc. :) > > Friday is 17 technical classes, free pizza, and the PDP-8 ceremony. See you there. I'll be the 6 foot 6 geek wandering around with a stunned look on his face... From evan at snarc.net Thu Apr 9 23:13:33 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 00:13:33 -0400 Subject: Brian Kernighan @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <20150410040034.D8F2E401E3@smtp.hushmail.com> References: <55271E8F.3050309@snarc.net> <20150410040034.D8F2E401E3@smtp.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <55274DED.7030600@snarc.net> >>> Big announcement! >>> >>> Wes Clark is unable to attend VCF East due to health. >>> >>> Naturally I hit the panic button. Wes, after all, was already >> our Plan B after Ted Nelson backed out, also due to personal matters. >>> But we scrambled really hard in the past two days and landed K. >> :) >> >> Yep, that does it. I'm going to be there. Seriously, Kernighan and Bell? I plan to grovel. > I'M NOT WORTHY! I heard that about you. :) But you ARE worthy, dude. Everyone is. Tell all your friends. Rent a van, take a road trip, hitchhike, do what you've gotta do. Come to VCF East. Friday: Seventeen technical classes. Free pizza. PDP-8 ceremony. Saturday/Sunday mornings: Keynotes! Kernighan, Frankston. (Not Bell.) Rest of Saturday/Sunday: Forty-ish live exhibits! Minis, homebrews, 8-bitters. Also on Saturday/Sunday: Consignment sale, pro vendors, learn-to-solder workshop. Plus, the MARCH computer museum will be open all day Saturday/Sunday. Wanna see UNIVAC* pieces? A Bendix G-15? IBM 1130? Philbrick analog computer, circa 1958? All sorts of DEC? Altair, IMSAI, Apple 1, and every other major homebrew system? Vol. 1, issue 1 of every major computer magazine? A huge collection of micros? And .... other wings of the InfoAge center show the histories of NJ shipwrecks, radio/TV, military vehicles, Marconi-era telegraphy, electronic warfare .... we've got a hackerspace, too. You might even see a wild bald eagle family from our parking lot. * We anticipate doubling our exhibit space later this year. At that time our * complete * UNIVAC will go on display along with lots of other awesome stuff that's currently in storage. No, you can't get a tour of the storage warehouse during the show, sorry. :) From evan at snarc.net Thu Apr 9 23:15:34 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 00:15:34 -0400 Subject: Brian Kernighan @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <393DB2CD-F6D5-4503-BC9A-6D3111E1D05A@gmail.com> References: <55271E8F.3050309@snarc.net> <5527498F.3000007@snarc.net> <393DB2CD-F6D5-4503-BC9A-6D3111E1D05A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55274E66.8010308@snarc.net> >>>> But we scrambled really hard in the past two days and landed K. :) >>> Yep, that does it. I'm going to be there. Seriously, Kernighan and Bell? I plan to grovel. >> Glad you're going, however, Gordon Bell is not. We never said he'd be there .... we did say we * asked * him to go and that he wasn't available. > Right, I read it wrong. Doesn't matter, I've already done the Expedia thing. I really wanted to attend, schedules changed, I can get there now, and I just wish I could bring my 11/15. Great! From where are you traveling? (People have come from four continents...) >> Kernighan is on Saturday morning (April 18). Sunday morning's speaker is Bob Frankston, who programmed a little thing called VisiCalc. :) >> >> Friday is 17 technical classes, free pizza, and the PDP-8 ceremony. > See you there. I'll be the 6 foot 6 geek wandering around with a stunned look on his face... I'll look for you. If you see me first, then please introduce yourself. I'm the skinny 5-foot-8 bald Jew. From roeapeterson at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 02:39:36 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 01:39:36 -0600 Subject: Brian Kernighan @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <55274E66.8010308@snarc.net> References: <55271E8F.3050309@snarc.net> <5527498F.3000007@snarc.net> <393DB2CD-F6D5-4503-BC9A-6D3111E1D05A@gmail.com> <55274E66.8010308@snarc.net> Message-ID: <3B364E7B-B61F-4796-A144-B71E3C242871@gmail.com> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 10:15 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Right, I read it wrong. Doesn't matter, I've already done the Expedia thing. I really wanted to attend, schedules changed, I can get there now, and I just wish I could bring my 11/15. > > Great! From where are you traveling? > > (People have come from four continents...) Saskatchewan, Canada -- the Great White North :-) > > >>> Kernighan is on Saturday morning (April 18). Sunday morning's speaker is Bob Frankston, who programmed a little thing called VisiCalc. :) I remember it well, we sold VisiCalc on both the pet and apple way, WAY back when. Cool stuff, and it got me writing 6502 assembler just to keep up with the sheer speed. >>> >>> Friday is 17 technical classes, free pizza, and the PDP-8 ceremony. >> See you there. I'll be the 6 foot 6 geek wandering around with a stunned look on his face... > > I'll look for you. If you see me first, then please introduce yourself. I'm the skinny 5-foot-8 bald Jew. There has _got_ to be a punch line in here someplace, but it's just too late at night for my fuzzy brain to come up with it... From wilson at dbit.com Fri Apr 10 03:05:36 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 04:05:36 -0400 Subject: Brian Kernighan @ VCF East In-Reply-To: <3B364E7B-B61F-4796-A144-B71E3C242871@gmail.com> References: <55271E8F.3050309@snarc.net> <5527498F.3000007@snarc.net> <393DB2CD-F6D5-4503-BC9A-6D3111E1D05A@gmail.com> <55274E66.8010308@snarc.net> <3B364E7B-B61F-4796-A144-B71E3C242871@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150410080536.GA13009@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 01:39:36AM -0600, Roe Peterson wrote: >> On Apr 9, 2015, at 10:15 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> See you there. I'll be the 6 foot 6 geek wandering around with a stunned >>> look on his face... >> >> I'll look for you. If you see me first, then please introduce yourself. >> I'm the skinny 5-foot-8 bald Jew. > >There has _got_ to be a punch line in here someplace, but it's just too >late at night for my fuzzy brain to come up with it... Is there a reason why people don't wear name tags at VCF-E? Seems like an obvious thing (this is a great place to attach faces to names we've known forever), but no one seems to have them on and I'd feel like a tool bringing my own and being the only one. John Wilson (only 6'5" and gangly, and more clueless-looking than stunned) D Bit (OK so I'll be wearing a T-shirt) From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 10 03:43:09 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 01:43:09 -0700 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands Message-ID: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> DEC-Digital-1972-GT40-vector-graphics-system-PDP11-PDP-11 http://www.ebay.com/itm/231477915161 If I could afford it I wouldn't sweat the shipping cost. I think someone had posted what board did the graphics. Has that ever been given consideration for being added to SIMH for the 11? I'd love to run Lander, which I think is running on the system as shown. To Al: There was also a system like this at USL, which I wish had been conveyed to you. I suspect it was not. There was a new in the box replacement CRT because someone had had the system halt and burned the phosphor. You had to watch the system and never let the dot stop. If it stopped at a spot on the phosphor in the on position, you'd etch the phosphor. Ours (USL) never ran anything but Lander, so until someone with a project came along, we were saving the tube. The burn didn't affect lander much at all. thanks Jim From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 10 03:59:53 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 01:59:53 -0700 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <55279109.3090104@jwsss.com> On 4/10/2015 1:43 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: > To Al: There was also a system like this at USL, which I wish had > been conveyed to you. I suspect it was not. There was a new in the > box replacement CRT because someone had had the system halt and burned > the phosphor. You had to watch the system and never let the dot > stop. If it stopped at a spot on the phosphor in the on position, > you'd etch the phosphor. > > Ours (USL) never ran anything but Lander, so until someone with a > project came along, we were saving the tube. The burn didn't affect > lander much at all. I read the link in the auction, which is Eric Smith's page on the GT-40. It is where I got the information that Al K was involved, etc., so will post it to save some time, as the Ebay listing will vanish someday, and the link to the GT-40 with it Eric Smiths excellent page: https://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/gt40/ thanks Jim From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 10 06:50:23 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 07:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Brian Kernighan @ VCF East Message-ID: <20150410115023.5B82F18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Wilson > Is there a reason why people don't wear name tags at VCF-E? ... no one > seems to have them on and I'd feel like a tool bringing my own and > being the only one. Bring yours - it won't be the only one! I was planning on bringing one of my old IETF ones in case there weren't 'official' VCFE ones. Everyone else, please bring one! (And maybe someone could bring a spool of those stick-on temporary ones, for those without.) Without them, you'll never know if you just walked past someone you know well online.... Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 10 09:03:42 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:03:42 -0400 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <7ED9F3E5-90C0-4565-9A6D-B68D4284D133@comcast.net> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 4:43 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > DEC-Digital-1972-GT40-vector-graphics-system-PDP11-PDP-11 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/231477915161 > > If I could afford it I wouldn't sweat the shipping cost. > > I think someone had posted what board did the graphics. Has that ever been given consideration for being added to SIMH for the 11? > > I'd love to run Lander, which I think is running on the system as shown. I thought that had been done. I distinctly remember a graphics device emulation that implemented persistence, something I have since applied in another place (Cyber console emulation). I forgot the author?s name, but I thought it was for SIMH and specifically GT40 emulation. paul From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Fri Apr 10 09:24:54 2015 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 08:24:54 -0600 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150410) Message-ID: True or False: The ZFS file system wastes more space on an average file allocation than the ram in a typical PDP-8. At the very least this question might give someone a reason to learn a little bit about ZFS. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 10 09:38:15 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 07:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? Message-ID: Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by the end user) core boards as ROM? tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 10 09:46:15 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:46:15 -0400 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:38 AM, geneb wrote: > > Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by the end user) core boards as ROM? Do you mean DEC machine? I don?t know any. Certainly not any PDP-11; those used solid state ROMs, or in the early boot ROM cards, diode arrays. I think some IBM 360 models used core ROM for microcode. Another early machine ? the CDC 6000 series mainframes ? used a switch matrix for the boot ROM (?deadstart panel?). And the character shape data for the console display was originally implemented as a large pile of random logic, though in the 170 series it turned into a conventional ROM. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 09:54:10 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 15:54:10 +0100 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <015501d0739e$33e420c0$9bac6240$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning > Sent: 10 April 2015 15:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Hand-wired core for ROM? > > > > On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:38 AM, geneb wrote: > > > > Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by the > end user) core boards as ROM? > > Do you mean DEC machine? > > I don?t know any. Certainly not any PDP-11; those used solid state ROMs, or > in the early boot ROM cards, diode arrays. > > I think some IBM 360 models used core ROM for microcode. Rather than cores I believe that some machines had coils with drop in ferrite slugs. I found this patent from 1972 which references IBM Patents.. http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US3691541 I also know the Elliot 803 used ferrite transformers in its logic sections... > > Another early machine ? the CDC 6000 series mainframes ? used a switch > matrix for the boot ROM (?deadstart panel?). And the character shape data > for the console display was originally implemented as a large pile of random > logic, though in the 170 series it turned into a conventional ROM. > > paul > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 10 09:59:53 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 15:59:53 +0100 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5527E569.6090308@btinternet.com> I don't know about DEC but the Apollo Nav computer used 'rope' memory as ROM On 10/04/2015 15:38, geneb wrote: > Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by > the end user) core boards as ROM? > > tnx. > > g. > > From wilson at dbit.com Fri Apr 10 10:25:56 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 11:25:56 -0400 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <7ED9F3E5-90C0-4565-9A6D-B68D4284D133@comcast.net> References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> <7ED9F3E5-90C0-4565-9A6D-B68D4284D133@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20150410152556.GA21554@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 10:03:42AM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >I thought that had been done. I distinctly remember a graphics device >emulation that implemented persistence, something I have since applied in >another place (Cyber console emulation). I forgot the author???s name, >but I thought it was for SIMH and specifically GT40 emulation. I too thought SIMH had it. And E11 certainly does (in all versions except Linux -- WLINK still can't do ELF dynlinks, last I checked). Obviously, the lunar lander is the "killer app" for the VT11. John Wilson D Bit From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 10 10:32:00 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 08:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:38 AM, geneb wrote: >> >> Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by the end user) core boards as ROM? > > Do you mean DEC machine? > Yes. > I don?t know any. Certainly not any PDP-11; those used solid state > ROMs, or in the early boot ROM cards, diode arrays. > I want to make sure it wasn't in use before I double-down on calling shennanigans on "Joe" in this thread: http://hackaday.com/2015/04/08/restoring-a-vintage-pdp-1104-computer/#comments As far as I know, machines of that era used cores that were so small the DEC hired master seamstresses (myth?) to make them. It's certainly not something that would be done in the field by John Q. Programmer. If I'm wrong, I'll happily admit it, but it just doesn't sound reasonable. Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 10 10:43:31 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 08:43:31 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <015501d0739e$33e420c0$9bac6240$@gmail.com> References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <015501d0739e$33e420c0$9bac6240$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5527EFA3.1060904@sydex.com> On 04/10/2015 07:54 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Rather than cores I believe that some machines had coils with drop in > ferrite slugs. I found this patent from 1972 which references IBM > Patents.. > > http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US3691541 Somewhere on the web, there's a good exposition S/360 microcode store. Two systems (at least) used--one was capacitive (360/30 et al.) and the other was what was called "transformer" memory. Very clever, both of them. I believe that the CDC large machines used capacitor-type ROS. --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 10:45:24 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:45:24 +0200 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> Message-ID: 2015-04-10 17:32 GMT+02:00 geneb : > On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:38 AM, geneb wrote: >>> >>> Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by >>> the end user) core boards as ROM? >>> >> >> Do you mean DEC machine? >> >> Yes. > > I don?t know any. Certainly not any PDP-11; those used solid state ROMs, >> or in the early boot ROM cards, diode arrays. >> > What about the PDP-9 micro code memory? http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9/pdp-9-restoration/PCP-9_MC09_ROP-Memory.jpg 64 words of 36 bit memory with small transformers. Not anything that the end user work with though. > >> I want to make sure it wasn't in use before I double-down on calling > shennanigans on "Joe" in this thread: > http://hackaday.com/2015/04/08/restoring-a-vintage-pdp- > 1104-computer/#comments > > As far as I know, machines of that era used cores that were so small the > DEC hired master seamstresses (myth?) to make them. It's certainly not > something that would be done in the field by John Q. Programmer. > > If I'm wrong, I'll happily admit it, but it just doesn't sound reasonable. > > Thanks! > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From phil at ultimate.com Fri Apr 10 10:58:52 2015 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 11:58:52 -0400 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <20150410152556.GA21554@dbit.dbit.com> References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> <7ED9F3E5-90C0-4565-9A6D-B68D4284D133@comcast.net> <20150410152556.GA21554@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <201504101558.t3AFwqQM095196@ultimate.com> > Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 11:25:56 -0400 > From: John Wilson > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 10:03:42AM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >I thought that had been done. I distinctly remember a graphics device > >emulation that implemented persistence, something I have since applied in > >another place (Cyber console emulation). I forgot the author???s name, > >but I thought it was for SIMH and specifically GT40 emulation. > > I too thought SIMH had it. And E11 certainly does (in all versions except > Linux -- WLINK still can't do ELF dynlinks, last I checked). Obviously, the > lunar lander is the "killer app" for the VT11. > > John Wilson > D Bit http://www.ultimate.com/phil/xy/ Doug Gwyn made MAJOR contributions to the VT11/VS60 simulation. It also has "Type 30" support for the PDP-1. I started (but never finished) "Type 340" support. Someone was looking at (re)integrating it with modern SIMH. I'd encourage anyone who works on this to use some modern display layer (e.g. SDL), rather than the primative adaptation layer(s) I wrote. http://www.ultimate.com/phil/xy/cvs.tar.gz is a checkout of the "latest" files from my CVS repository. There is also http://www.ultimate.com/phil/xy/kit2.zip (dated Feb 2004) which includes SIMH from back in the day. Phil From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 10 11:00:15 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:00:15 +0100 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> Not seamstresses but nimble fingered girls in Puerto Rico and the Phillipines Core was in effect ROM. Power the system down switch off and anytime later turn it back on and whatever was in core was still there. I can remember our Field Service guys restarting the final factory diagnositc on new systems. On 10/04/2015 16:32, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:38 AM, geneb wrote: >>> >>> Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded >>> (by the end user) core boards as ROM? >> >> Do you mean DEC machine? >> > Yes. > >> I don?t know any. Certainly not any PDP-11; those used solid state >> ROMs, or in the early boot ROM cards, diode arrays. >> > I want to make sure it wasn't in use before I double-down on calling > shennanigans on "Joe" in this thread: > http://hackaday.com/2015/04/08/restoring-a-vintage-pdp-1104-computer/#comments > > > As far as I know, machines of that era used cores that were so small > the DEC hired master seamstresses (myth?) to make them. It's certainly > not something that would be done in the field by John Q. Programmer. > > If I'm wrong, I'll happily admit it, but it just doesn't sound > reasonable. > > Thanks! > > g. > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 11:00:12 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:00:12 -0400 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: What is the maintenance box pictured in 20150407_100342.jpg? That should probably be saved - probably the best thing of the pile. Small enough to ship, too. -- Will On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some storage > rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for this (although I'm > involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but things that people have > interest in can be stored for "a while". > > Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: > > Unibus- and BI-bus boards (I'm will try to save these) > 1/2"-tapes > 2x DEC7000 > RX01-floppies > DEC5500 (labled ellen.lnt.dec.com) > Vax 4000/300 > A few RA90 > MV3900+RA82+RL02 > Sun-mice and Sun-SCSI-cables (lots) > Annex3 Terminal Server > VAXserver 3100 > VAXstation 3100 > Vax 4000/90 > 2x VAXstation 3100/76 > Vax 4000/60 > Infoserver 100 > Sun CD-drive > Mikrovax 3800 > CI-cable > 2x RF215 (disk towers) > Mikrovax? 640QR? > Vax 4000/500 > HSC90 > TU81+RA82 > 11/750 no PSU > SDI cables > 2 st Hawk-drives (ND511). > Boards for Nord-100. > Teleray terminal > 2 Nord-10 CPU-boxes? > > There is also a VAX 8354 with RA72 that I'm going try and save myself, but I > can't fit the cabinet in my garage. So if anyone seriously wants this, I'll > let it go. > There is also two RP07 that might get a new home locally, but it's not > decided yet. > > The list might grow or shrink depending on what people claim or not. > > Here are some images: > http://brain.brokenbrain.se/skrot_dh1/ > > Regards, > Pontus. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 10 11:06:18 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:06:18 -0400 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <201504101558.t3AFwqQM095196@ultimate.com> References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> <7ED9F3E5-90C0-4565-9A6D-B68D4284D133@comcast.net> <20150410152556.GA21554@dbit.dbit.com> <201504101558.t3AFwqQM095196@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <2C5174AE-3813-45E0-A285-3118C4D2FC23@comcast.net> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Phil Budne wrote: > >> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 11:25:56 -0400 >> From: John Wilson >> >> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 10:03:42AM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >>> I thought that had been done. I distinctly remember a graphics device >>> emulation that implemented persistence, something I have since applied in >>> another place (Cyber console emulation). I forgot the author???s name, >>> but I thought it was for SIMH and specifically GT40 emulation. >> >> I too thought SIMH had it. And E11 certainly does (in all versions except >> Linux -- WLINK still can't do ELF dynlinks, last I checked). Obviously, the >> lunar lander is the "killer app" for the VT11. >> >> John Wilson >> D Bit > > http://www.ultimate.com/phil/xy/ > > Doug Gwyn made MAJOR contributions to the VT11/VS60 simulation. > It also has "Type 30" support for the PDP-1. > I started (but never finished) "Type 340" support. > > Someone was looking at (re)integrating it with modern SIMH. I'd > encourage anyone who works on this to use some modern display layer > (e.g. SDL), rather than the primative adaptation layer(s) I wrote. Thanks Phil. Yes, the work by Doug and you was what I had in mind. My favorite portable display layer would be wxWidgets; that?s the one I use for my Cyber emulator work. I?ve seen mention of the one in SDL. It seems to be more game-oriented, at least judging by some of the discussion. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 10 11:08:35 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:08:35 -0400 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <62982378-805E-4C11-8948-FC5A03B48168@comcast.net> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Not seamstresses but nimble fingered girls in Puerto Rico and the Phillipines > Core was in effect ROM. Power the system down switch off and anytime later turn it back on and whatever was > in core was still there. I can remember our Field Service guys restarting the final factory diagnositc on new systems. That?s not ROM, that?s non-volatile RAM. It used to be that ?non-volatile? was assumed and not stated, until semiconductor memory came along that made the adjective necessary. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Apr 10 11:08:55 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 18:08:55 +0200 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5527F597.1020103@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-10 16:38, geneb wrote: > Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by > the end user) core boards as ROM? Hand threaded or not, core is not rom... Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Apr 10 11:12:15 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 18:12:15 +0200 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5527F65F.7080003@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-10 18:00, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Not seamstresses but nimble fingered girls in Puerto Rico and the > Phillipines > Core was in effect ROM. Power the system down switch off and anytime > later turn it back on and whatever was > in core was still there. I can remember our Field Service guys > restarting the final factory diagnositc on new systems. But... That is not what ROM is. You are just talking about store that persists over power failure. You can still overwrite it whenever. And actually, reading core is destructive. So you can never have core for rom. It needs to be rewritten whenever it is read. Johnny > > > > On 10/04/2015 16:32, geneb wrote: >> On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> >>>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:38 AM, geneb wrote: >>>> >>>> Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded >>>> (by the end user) core boards as ROM? >>> >>> Do you mean DEC machine? >>> >> Yes. >> >>> I don?t know any. Certainly not any PDP-11; those used solid state >>> ROMs, or in the early boot ROM cards, diode arrays. >>> >> I want to make sure it wasn't in use before I double-down on calling >> shennanigans on "Joe" in this thread: >> http://hackaday.com/2015/04/08/restoring-a-vintage-pdp-1104-computer/#comments >> >> >> As far as I know, machines of that era used cores that were so small >> the DEC hired master seamstresses (myth?) to make them. It's certainly >> not something that would be done in the field by John Q. Programmer. >> >> If I'm wrong, I'll happily admit it, but it just doesn't sound >> reasonable. >> >> Thanks! >> >> g. >> > From rickb at bensene.com Fri Apr 10 11:14:37 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 09:14:37 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by the > end user) core boards as ROM? > AFAIK, there was no ferrite-based ROM made by DEC for use in their computers. There may have been aftermarket subsystems or boards that were available for DEC machines that provided ferrite-ROM based storage, and in some cases, it would make sense for some of the earlier machines, before LSI ROM was available. I could definitely see use for such in canned applications such as process control or machine controls. Once LSI ROM became available, these kinds of devices disappeared very quickly. Not computers, but close in some cases: The Wang 700-series (as well as later 500 and 600-series) electronic calculators developed in the late 1960's used a ferrite ROM to store the microcode that ran the machines. http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/wang720.html The 700-series calculator was actually a redesign of what was intended to be a computer, but was quickly converted to a calculator when HP introduced the 9100A calculator, and Wang Labs had to scramble to make a competitive machine. The HP 9100 calculators also used a ferrite ROM for sequencing. http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/hp9100b.html The Wanderer Conti (an early printing desktop electronic calculator designed by Nixdorf) also used a core-based ROM for sequencing control. The Mathatronics Mathatron calculators (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/c-math8-48m.html) used threaded core ROM to store key-press sequences to implement higher-level math functions. The lack of any other real means (other than diode matrices, or capacitive type ROMs, which took up a lot of space and were expensive to make) for storing relatively large amounts of read-only data made ferrite-based ROM attractive. Early on, the ROM in the Wang 700 calculator was strung by hand (by very patient and exacting women), but eventually machines were built to at least semi-automate the process of stringing the maze of wires. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 11:15:48 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:15:48 -0400 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> Message-ID: > As far as I know, machines of that era used cores that were so small the DEC > hired master seamstresses (myth?) to make them. It's certainly not > something that would be done in the field by John Q. Programmer. As just mentioned, core was hand threaded mostly overseas, except for IBM core, which was machine made (and even there, they found it was cheaper to have some made by hand overseas). I do not know if anyone else automated core production. And "automate" is a loose word here - core stacks typically had to be reworked during shipping due to broken wires and bum cores. This is why with many core stacks, if you look closely, you can see splices in the wires. I am pretty sure rope memory (sort of core) could be changed in the field, due to the general larger dimensions. If someone is making a list - early Interdatas had rope for the control store. -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 10 11:16:04 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 09:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Not seamstresses but nimble fingered girls in Puerto Rico and the Phillipines > Core was in effect ROM. Power the system down switch off and anytime later > turn it back on and whatever was > in core was still there. I can remember our Field Service guys restarting > the final factory diagnositc on new systems. > I understand how core works, I'm just _seriously_ doubting the guy's post where he talked about modifying a core "ROM" by hand by changing the wiring. However, since I'm not hugely familiar with what went on during that era, I want to make sure where I stand before I tell him he's full of it. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 11:30:25 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:30:25 -0400 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> Message-ID: You should probably cut him a little slack, since core and rope are easily confused, as they are so similar. Rope could be rewired in the field, but I certainly would not want to be the FE with that job. -- Will On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 12:16 PM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Not seamstresses but nimble fingered girls in Puerto Rico and the >> Phillipines >> Core was in effect ROM. Power the system down switch off and anytime later >> turn it back on and whatever was >> in core was still there. I can remember our Field Service guys restarting >> the final factory diagnositc on new systems. >> > I understand how core works, I'm just _seriously_ doubting the guy's post > where he talked about modifying a core "ROM" by hand by changing the wiring. > However, since I'm not hugely familiar with what went on during that era, I > want to make sure where I stand before I tell him he's full of it. :) > > > > g. > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 10 11:32:00 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 09:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, William Donzelli wrote: > You should probably cut him a little slack, since core and rope are > easily confused, as they are so similar. Rope could be rewired in the > field, but I certainly would not want to be the FE with that job. > Yeah. I think I'm just going to walk away from it. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From andy.holt at tesco.net Fri Apr 10 12:03:10 2015 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:03:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150410) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <898841365.102691.1428685390379.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> > > True or False: > > The ZFS file system wastes more space on an average file allocation than > the ram in a typical PDP-8. Given a few assumptions: a) ZFS set up with default block size b) you mean "typical" c) On average, half the last block of a file is wasted d) AFAICT ZFS doesn't use the trick used by some *ix filesystems of packing the data contents for small files into the directory. (to do so would clash with the reliability focus of ZFS) Then: A typical PDP8 had 4 or 8K words (thus 6 or 12K bytes) Very few PDP8s had more than 32K words (48K bytes) all of which are less than half the size of the default fs blocksize for ZFS. Andy From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Apr 10 13:20:27 2015 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 20:20:27 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <20150409210647.GE22731@lug-owl.de> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <20150409210647.GE22731@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <1428690027.17700.8.camel@agj.net> tor 2015-04-09 klockan 23:06 +0200 skrev Jan-Benedict Glaw: > On Wed, 2015-04-08 22:34:27 +0200, Pontus wrote: > > Hi > > > > A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some > > storage rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for > > this (although I'm involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but > > things that people have interest in can be stored for "a while". > > > > Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: > > > > 2x DEC7000 > > DEC5500 (labled ellen.lnt.dec.com) > > 11/750 no PSU > > I'd *love* getting my hands on specifically the larger systems, but > it's well over 2000km (one way) from my location (Bielefeld area in > Germany.) Anybody else interested in fetching stuff and maybe > organizing a truck? > Rent a truck, a lot of the better german beers (NO CARLSBERG PLEASE !, but beer from southwestern part of Sachsen ie Radeberg is appreciated) and sell it while passing thru Sweden ? In other words: finance the trip by selling boze ? From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Apr 10 13:37:28 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 20:37:28 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <1428690027.17700.8.camel@agj.net> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <20150409210647.GE22731@lug-owl.de> <1428690027.17700.8.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <55281868.9060605@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-10 20:20, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > tor 2015-04-09 klockan 23:06 +0200 skrev Jan-Benedict Glaw: >> On Wed, 2015-04-08 22:34:27 +0200, Pontus wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some >>> storage rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for >>> this (although I'm involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but >>> things that people have interest in can be stored for "a while". >>> >>> Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: >>> >>> 2x DEC7000 >>> DEC5500 (labled ellen.lnt.dec.com) >>> 11/750 no PSU >> >> I'd *love* getting my hands on specifically the larger systems, but >> it's well over 2000km (one way) from my location (Bielefeld area in >> Germany.) Anybody else interested in fetching stuff and maybe >> organizing a truck? >> > > Rent a truck, a lot of the better german beers (NO CARLSBERG PLEASE !, > but beer from southwestern part of Sachsen ie Radeberg is appreciated) > and sell it while passing thru Sweden ? > In other words: finance the trip by selling boze ? A nice idea, apart from the fact that you'd be breaking the law... JOhnny From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 10 13:48:55 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 20:48:55 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150410184855.GA31809@Update.UU.SE> An alignment tool for RP06 disk packs. It has been saved by an RP06 owner. On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 12:00:12PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > What is the maintenance box pictured in 20150407_100342.jpg? That > should probably be saved - probably the best thing of the pile. Small > enough to ship, too. > > -- > Will > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Pontus wrote: > > Hi > > > > A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some storage > > rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for this (although I'm > > involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but things that people have > > interest in can be stored for "a while". > > > > Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: > > > > Unibus- and BI-bus boards (I'm will try to save these) > > 1/2"-tapes > > 2x DEC7000 > > RX01-floppies > > DEC5500 (labled ellen.lnt.dec.com) > > Vax 4000/300 > > A few RA90 > > MV3900+RA82+RL02 > > Sun-mice and Sun-SCSI-cables (lots) > > Annex3 Terminal Server > > VAXserver 3100 > > VAXstation 3100 > > Vax 4000/90 > > 2x VAXstation 3100/76 > > Vax 4000/60 > > Infoserver 100 > > Sun CD-drive > > Mikrovax 3800 > > CI-cable > > 2x RF215 (disk towers) > > Mikrovax? 640QR? > > Vax 4000/500 > > HSC90 > > TU81+RA82 > > 11/750 no PSU > > SDI cables > > 2 st Hawk-drives (ND511). > > Boards for Nord-100. > > Teleray terminal > > 2 Nord-10 CPU-boxes? > > > > There is also a VAX 8354 with RA72 that I'm going try and save myself, but I > > can't fit the cabinet in my garage. So if anyone seriously wants this, I'll > > let it go. > > There is also two RP07 that might get a new home locally, but it's not > > decided yet. > > > > The list might grow or shrink depending on what people claim or not. > > > > Here are some images: > > http://brain.brokenbrain.se/skrot_dh1/ > > > > Regards, > > Pontus. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 10 14:10:19 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 20:10:19 +0100 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <5527F597.1020103@update.uu.se> References: <5527F597.1020103@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5528201B.10205@btinternet.com> Hey Guys do what I just did .. Go to Google type in rope memory.. Read and then comment. Its perfectly true that that DEC only used diode matrixes for bootstrap boards. They were easy to change and suitable for customers However you need to understand the culture back then. Engineers were encouraged to try any technology they chose and they chose just about everything. Rod On 10/04/2015 17:08, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-04-10 16:38, geneb wrote: >> Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by >> the end user) core boards as ROM? > > Hand threaded or not, core is not rom... > > Johnny > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 10 14:29:18 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:29:18 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <07A21CD4-0361-4742-943B-B719DE86683B@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Apr-10, at 9:32 AM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, William Donzelli wrote: > >> You should probably cut him a little slack, since core and rope are >> easily confused, as they are so similar. Rope could be rewired in the >> field, but I certainly would not want to be the FE with that job. >> > Yeah. I think I'm just going to walk away from it. :) Core RAM and "core rope" ROM sure are often confused, but technically I would disagree that they are similar. They have about as much in common with each other as they do with the power transformer in the other corner of the chassis of whatever equipment they are in, that is to say what they have in common is using electro-magnetics and having a magnetic core. The operating principles and design and implementation of core RAM and core rope ROM are very different. Notably: - Core rope ROM does not magnetise the core for it's memory function. Core rope ROM is really just pulse transformers with multiple primaries on each transformer. The presence or absence of a primary for a particular address (whether or which way the address wire goes through the core) is the memory function. This is in contrast to core RAM of course, which relies on changing the remanent magnetic state of the core for the memory function. - Core rope ROM has one magnetic core per the word-width of the memory. That is, a memory of (say) 1024 16-bit words would have 16 cores. Core RAM has one magnetic core per memory bit, a memory of 1024 16-bit words has 16,348 cores. - Core rope ROM typically or often did not use doughnut-shaped cores, they were often some sort of splittable / two-part core so they could be accessed for the memory-state wiring. Strikes me as conceivable that DEC used a field-configurable core rope design for the PDP-14 program memory - something like the PDP-9 module that Mattis linked to could be field alterable, but it sounds like "joe" in the OP thread may be confusing things. From useddec at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 15:49:43 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 15:49:43 -0500 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <20150410184855.GA31809@Update.UU.SE> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> <20150410184855.GA31809@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: That is a very nice assortment of collectibles. I hope it all finds a new home. If anyone is into RP06s, I had the off line unit, heads, boards, and an alignment pack here somewhere. I don't remember it leaving. Paul On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 1:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > An alignment tool for RP06 disk packs. It has been saved by an > RP06 owner. > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 12:00:12PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > What is the maintenance box pictured in 20150407_100342.jpg? That > > should probably be saved - probably the best thing of the pile. Small > > enough to ship, too. > > > > -- > > Will > > > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Pontus wrote: > > > Hi > > > > > > A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some storage > > > rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for this > (although I'm > > > involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but things that people have > > > interest in can be stored for "a while". > > > > > > Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: > > > > > > Unibus- and BI-bus boards (I'm will try to save these) > > > 1/2"-tapes > > > 2x DEC7000 > > > RX01-floppies > > > DEC5500 (labled ellen.lnt.dec.com) > > > Vax 4000/300 > > > A few RA90 > > > MV3900+RA82+RL02 > > > Sun-mice and Sun-SCSI-cables (lots) > > > Annex3 Terminal Server > > > VAXserver 3100 > > > VAXstation 3100 > > > Vax 4000/90 > > > 2x VAXstation 3100/76 > > > Vax 4000/60 > > > Infoserver 100 > > > Sun CD-drive > > > Mikrovax 3800 > > > CI-cable > > > 2x RF215 (disk towers) > > > Mikrovax? 640QR? > > > Vax 4000/500 > > > HSC90 > > > TU81+RA82 > > > 11/750 no PSU > > > SDI cables > > > 2 st Hawk-drives (ND511). > > > Boards for Nord-100. > > > Teleray terminal > > > 2 Nord-10 CPU-boxes? > > > > > > There is also a VAX 8354 with RA72 that I'm going try and save myself, > but I > > > can't fit the cabinet in my garage. So if anyone seriously wants this, > I'll > > > let it go. > > > There is also two RP07 that might get a new home locally, but it's not > > > decided yet. > > > > > > The list might grow or shrink depending on what people claim or not. > > > > > > Here are some images: > > > http://brain.brokenbrain.se/skrot_dh1/ > > > > > > Regards, > > > Pontus. > From useddec at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 15:58:18 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 15:58:18 -0500 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have several DEC (PDP8) ones downstairs. I'll try to got the part numbers tonight and post them. They might have been used in the PDP14, but I doubt it. They were definitely not wired in the field. Paul On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:38 AM, geneb wrote: > Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by the > end user) core boards as ROM? > > tnx. > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 10 16:20:12 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 14:20:12 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <07A21CD4-0361-4742-943B-B719DE86683B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> <07A21CD4-0361-4742-943B-B719DE86683B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <35A2A7FE-FF29-46C0-9704-0CE60B12C0BF@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Apr-10, at 12:29 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Apr-10, at 9:32 AM, geneb wrote: >> On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> You should probably cut him a little slack, since core and rope are >>> easily confused, as they are so similar. Rope could be rewired in the >>> field, but I certainly would not want to be the FE with that job. >>> >> Yeah. I think I'm just going to walk away from it. :) > > Core RAM and "core rope" ROM sure are often confused, but technically I would disagree that they are similar. > . . . . > > Strikes me as conceivable that DEC used a field-configurable core rope design for the PDP-14 program memory - something like the PDP-9 module that Mattis linked to could be field alterable, but it sounds like "joe" in the OP thread may be confusing things. This 1969 PDP-14 manual from bitsavers indeed describes a core rope ROM implementation for the control memory: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp14/DEC-14-GGZA-D_PDP14UM_Nov69.pdf It indicates the initial programming was generally done by specification to the DEC factory, but in-the-field reprogramming was also done. From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Apr 10 16:52:26 2015 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 14:52:26 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <35A2A7FE-FF29-46C0-9704-0CE60B12C0BF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> <07A21CD4-0361-4742-943B-B719DE86683B@cs.ubc.ca> <35A2A7FE-FF29-46C0-9704-0CE60B12C0BF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1A50BB56B56F4AE8815FFDA99479A440@Vincew7> From: Brent Hilpert: Friday, April 10, 2015 2:20 PM > This 1969 PDP-14 manual from bitsavers indeed describes a core rope ROM > implementation for the control memory: > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp14/DEC-14-GGZA-D_PDP14UM_Nov69.pdf > > It indicates the initial programming was generally done by specification to > the DEC factory, but in-the-field reprogramming was also done. Ineed, the bulk of chapter 12 attempts to describe how to do the reprogramming. Vince From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 16:56:10 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:56:10 +0100 Subject: This may be the most impressive demo I've ever seen. Message-ID: http://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-all-your-emulators/ This is a demo for the original 4.77MHz 8088 IBM PC with CGA. No sound card, no hard disk, but 640kB of RAM. It's astounding, from the music to the 256-colour graphics. An amazing piece of work. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 10 17:23:43 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 18:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? Message-ID: <20150410222343.BFCFB18C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > Core rope ROM has one magnetic core per the word-width of the memory. > That is, a memory of (say) 1024 16-bit words would have 16 cores. Not always (although your basic point, that in core ROM, a single core is often/usually used for more than one bit, is a very key point to note); the Apollo rope ROM had one core per 192 bits, or 12 words of 16 bits each, "thousands of ... cores" per memory rope. See: http://web.mit.edu/digitalapollo/Digital%20Apollo%20Annotated.doc and there's a picture of one here: http://klabs.org/mapld04/presentations/session_g/g1007_hall_s.ppt (see slide #15). Those notes do contain an interesting aside: "rearrange the program's fixed-memory allocations to avoid cases where such sets of 12 words contained too many ones to fit in their cores", which implies that the cores were fairly small, physically (since a one involved running the wire _through_ the core, not around it). I don't know why they didn't make the cores larger, and have fewer of them; my suspicion is that in manufacturing terms, it was easier to have more of them, with less wires through each one. (I can't think of an _electrical_ reason to do so; unlike with RAM cores, where smaller cores are faster to switch, and take less power to do so.) Noel From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:29:45 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 23:29:45 +0100 Subject: Looking for: Moniterm Viking 2400 In-Reply-To: <551B7894.3030607@gmail.com> References: <551B7894.3030607@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1 April 2015 at 05:48, Josh Dersch wrote: > OK, long shot. I gave one of these away years ago and I wish I hadn't; > anyone have a Moniterm Viking 2400 monitor they'd part with? This is a > large (24") B&W monitor from the late 80s. I still have the Mac Nubus card > to drive it... I sent a 21" Viking II mono monitor + matching NuBus card to a listmember in Germany, but it's the only one I had... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:40:28 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 15:40:28 -0700 Subject: Looking for: Moniterm Viking 2400 In-Reply-To: References: <551B7894.3030607@gmail.com> <20150401190635.3A7062073EF0@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Is that the 'Hedley Hires' you're referring to, Ethan? Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 1, 2015, at 12:36, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 2:54 PM, John Foust wrote: >> At 11:48 PM 3/31/2015, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> OK, long shot. I gave one of these away years ago and I wish I hadn't; anyone have a Moniterm Viking 2400 monitor they'd part with? This is a large (24") B&W monitor from the late 80s. I still have the Mac Nubus card to drive it... >> >> They were used in the Amiga and Atari markets, too, weren't they, >> with specialized video cards? Or was that only their 19" monitors? > > I have the 19" Viking greyscale monitor with the corresponding Amiga > card (1008 x 1008 w/quarter-screen panelized refresh) It was great > for writing code. I don't remember anything larger from the day. > > -ethan From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Apr 10 18:11:00 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 16:11:00 -0700 Subject: Looking for: Moniterm Viking 2400 In-Reply-To: References: <551B7894.3030607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <019201d073e3$9cd80e80$d6882b80$@net> > I sent a 21" Viking II mono monitor + matching NuBus card to a > listmember in Germany, but it's the only one I had... > I have the ISA version of the card for the monitor somewhere around here. I was hoping I could get my hands on a monitor but that sounds unlikely. So if anyone who has a monitor want a PC card drop me a line off list. I hope that way it can go to a good home. -Ali From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 19:11:32 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 19:11:32 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1000 system boards Message-ID: <552866B4.1030801@gmail.com> Any Amiga geeks out there? I picked up a pair of Amiga A1000 systems a couple of weeks ago. Both are Revision 6 boards (going by IC dates, one was likely built in October of '85, the other in January of '86). However, bigbookofamigahardware.com claims that rev. 6 boards had copper traces and the later rev A board were tin - but in this case the earlier of my two boards is tin (while the later one is indeed copper). Just wondering if I have a bit of an anomaly (and the above site's correct), of if the reality is that rev. 6 boards routinely appear in both copper and tin? s/n on the early system is 6000146, the later one is 1165109; I have no idea what production numbers were like (anyone?) but I'm assuming that there's some form of plant number involved in the leading digit(s). cheers Jules From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Apr 10 11:08:32 2015 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 09:08:32 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9A17895E58E24245B8CDC2A34BF28932@Vincew7> From: geneb: Friday, April 10, 2015 8:32 AM > I want to make sure it wasn't in use before I double-down on calling > shennanigans on "Joe" in this thread: > http://hackaday.com/2015/04/08/restoring-a-vintage-pdp-1104-computer/#comments Since he's talking about PDP-8 and PDP-14 machines, I'm guessing he's talking about the MR8E core rope memory. > As far as I know, machines of that era used cores that were so small the DEC > hired master seamstresses (myth?) to make them. It's certainly not something > that would be done in the field by John Q. Programmer. >From what I've read, MR8E were supposed to be custom configured at the factory, but it's conceivable that changes could be made by the customer. The Field Service Guide actually recommends re-soldering (after re-tinning) the connections on boards that were unreliable. Vince From commodorejohn at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 14:35:28 2015 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:35:28 -0700 Subject: DEC Professional 350 - video issue Message-ID: Back in November I dropped in on a list member's moving giveaway and came away with some DEC stuff, among which was a DEC Professional 350 with keyboard and monitor. As the previous owner informed me, the video isn't working; there's no picture on the monitor, but there's visible sync lines, and the diagnostic lights on the back of the unit indicate an error with the bitmap graphics card. I'm pretty sure it's an issue with the card and not the slot, since the error moves with the card when I install it in one of the other slots, but I'm not sure what to look for on the card itself - nothing is socketed, so it's not chip creep, and the card connector looks to be in good shape. Does anybody have any advice for diagnosing and repairing this? I'd really like to get it working. Failing that, does anybody have a spare for the video card? (It's DEC part number 54-15138.) I've got a Rainbow I'd be willing to trade for a working one (base unit only - I don't have the facilities to test it, but according to the owner it was in working condition.) From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 10 14:57:17 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 15:57:17 -0400 Subject: DEC Professional 350 - video issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 10, 2015, at 3:35 PM, John Ames wrote: > > Back in November I dropped in on a list member's moving giveaway and > came away with some DEC stuff, among which was a DEC Professional 350 > with keyboard and monitor. As the previous owner informed me, the > video isn't working; there's no picture on the monitor, but there's > visible sync lines, and the diagnostic lights on the back of the unit > indicate an error with the bitmap graphics card. I'm pretty sure it's > an issue with the card and not the slot, since the error moves with > the card when I install it in one of the other slots, but I'm not sure > what to look for on the card itself - nothing is socketed, so it's not > chip creep, and the card connector looks to be in good shape. > > Does anybody have any advice for diagnosing and repairing this? Nothing from personal experience, unfortunately, but a few random notions: I don?t remember if schematics for the -350 exist on-line, but the Technical Manual will at least give you detailed block diagrams. It?s on Bitsavers. If you have a console cable (which is basically a printer cable with a pair of pins on the PRO end jumpered together) you could try to boot an OS that will talk to a console terminal, then you might be able to use that to talk to the CSRs and dig deeper. RSTS could do that but it?s not generally available; RT11 might, I?m not sure. If you have some ODT-like program, you could poke around the CSRs and see what those tell you. paul From scaron at umich.edu Fri Apr 10 16:04:54 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:04:54 -0400 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The paternal side of my family is from the southern Minnesota area and my dad has told me on more than one occasion that my grandmother for a time had a job working for Control Data "sewing" core memory by hand... This would probably have been some time in the 1960s... Obviously I can't verify the veracity of this firsthand :O but it's been said at least of that stuff was assembled by hand by human beings, in the US... Not sure about the core you'll find in your common PDP-11... By that time, the work might have totally gone overseas? Best, Sean On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 4:58 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have several DEC (PDP8) ones downstairs. I'll try to got the part numbers > tonight and post them. They might have been used in the PDP14, but I doubt > it. They were definitely not wired in the field. > > Paul > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:38 AM, geneb wrote: > > > Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by the > > end user) core boards as ROM? > > > > tnx. > > > > g. > > > > > > -- > > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > > > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 20:15:37 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 19:15:37 -0600 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <5527F597.1020103@update.uu.se> References: <5527F597.1020103@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Hand threaded or not, core is not rom... Wrong. There does exist core ROM. It works differently than "normal" core memory, and doesn't require the hysteresis loop used by normal core, nor does it need to flip the magnetization of the cores. Instead it uses each core as a transformer. It is called "core rope" memory or "wire braid" memory, and is closely related to the IBM TROS (Transformer Read Only Store) used as control store in some System/360 CPUs and peripheral control units. It was used in the Apollo Guidance computer, the DEC PDP-9 control store, some PDP-16 configurations, and the HP 9100 desk calculator. It was probably used in many other machines of that era also. Each "word" of core ROM has one drive line. That line is threaded through some of the cores and around others. The core acts as a transformer, so a pulse on the drive line is coupled to the sense lines of the cores that the drive line is threaded through, but is not coupled to the sense lines of the cores that the drive line bypasses. Typically about 64 drive lines are used for one set of cores; beyond that another set of cores would be used. That makes it 64 times as dense, in terms of bits per core, as normal read-write core memory. The HP 9100 has two levels of control store. The top level is a 32Kbit inductively coupled PCB, which is amazing in its own right. The lower level store is a core rope memory of 64 words of 29 bits, so there are 64 drive lines each threaded through or around 29 cores, with 29 sense amplifiers. To change the contents of the core rope memory, you have to rewire it. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 10 21:46:37 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 19:46:37 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55288B0D.8050908@sydex.com> On 04/10/2015 02:04 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > The paternal side of my family is from the southern Minnesota area and my > dad has told me on more than one occasion that my grandmother for a time > had a job working for Control Data "sewing" core memory by hand... This > would probably have been some time in the 1960s... Obviously I can't verify > the veracity of this firsthand :O but it's been said at least of that stuff > was assembled by hand by human beings, in the US... Probably true. Most of the systems manufacturers eventually took labor at least out of the country. There was talk at CDC back in the day of the "Tijuana core house", but that may have been for the bulk core (ECS) used back then. --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 22:34:52 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:34:52 -0500 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, I found them. I have MR8-ECs "MAINDEC-08-DHMRA-A". The full board is a M880, the half size is a H241. I don't think there is anything like this in my VT14, and I don't recall seeing it in any of my PDP14 items. Paul On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:38 AM, geneb wrote: > Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by the > end user) core boards as ROM? > > tnx. > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 00:15:03 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 01:15:03 -0400 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <07A21CD4-0361-4742-943B-B719DE86683B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> <07A21CD4-0361-4742-943B-B719DE86683B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Core RAM and "core rope" ROM sure are often confused, but technically I would disagree that they are similar. > They have about as much in common with each other as they do with the power transformer in the other corner of the chassis of whatever equipment they are in, that is to say what they have in common is using electro-magnetics and having a magnetic core. You are nitpicking. In the field of vintage memory systems, for lack of a better term, core and rope are far more closely related than core and any other type of memory, or rope and any other type of memory. -- Will From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Apr 11 00:32:07 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:32:07 -0700 Subject: This may be the most impressive demo I've ever seen. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01b801d07418$db1a5ec0$914f1c40$@net> > http://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-all-your- > emulators/ > > This is a demo for the original 4.77MHz 8088 IBM PC with CGA. No sound > card, no hard disk, but 640kB of RAM. > > It's astounding, from the music to the 256-colour graphics. An amazing > piece of work. I couldn't agree more. The original 8088 Corruption by Trixter was impressive. This is beyond words. I've been looking to see if I can DL it to use on my own systems. I will drop Trixter a line on VCF. Could you imagine if someone had done this, say in 1983, at Comdex? People would have gone nuts! -Ali From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 11 01:07:39 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 23:07:39 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> <07A21CD4-0361-4742-943B-B719DE86683B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2015-Apr-10, at 10:15 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Core RAM and "core rope" ROM sure are often confused, but technically I would disagree that they are similar. >> They have about as much in common with each other as they do with the power transformer in the other corner of the chassis of whatever equipment they are in, that is to say what they have in common is using electro-magnetics and having a magnetic core. > > You are nitpicking. > > In the field of vintage memory systems, for lack of a better term, > core and rope are far more closely related than core and any other > type of memory, or rope and any other type of memory. Having in common their era of popularity makes them similar to miniskirts and Andy Warhol. Suggesting they are similar just contributes to the confusion about them. They get confused because of the use of the word core in both, and they're of the same era, with the result that core rope is misunderstood to be just some minor variation on core RAM, for example as seems to have happened just now in the OP's thread in another forum, so I made the point of clarifying their distinction. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 11 01:30:11 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 23:30:11 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <45557110-3E4F-4B8C-AC22-16E9853513F8@comcast.net> <5527F38F.508@btinternet.com> <07A21CD4-0361-4742-943B-B719DE86683B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5528BF73.8040205@sydex.com> On 04/10/2015 11:07 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Having in common their era of popularity makes them similar to > miniskirts and Andy Warhol. Suggesting they are similar just > contributes to the confusion about them. > > They get confused because of the use of the word core in both, and > they're of the same era, with the result that core rope is > misunderstood to be just some minor variation on core RAM, for > example as seems to have happened just now in the OP's thread in > another forum, so I made the point of clarifying their distinction. Let's also not forget that cores were used to implement pretty much all logic in some computers. (e.g. NEC Parametrons, Univac Solid-state, an early Cray military computer, etc.) There, "solid state" did not mean transistors, which, at the time, were still not reliable enough for prime-time. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 11 01:58:10 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 23:58:10 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <20150410222343.BFCFB18C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150410222343.BFCFB18C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2015-Apr-10, at 3:23 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert > >> Core rope ROM has one magnetic core per the word-width of the memory. >> That is, a memory of (say) 1024 16-bit words would have 16 cores. > > Not always (although your basic point, that in core ROM, a single core is > often/usually used for more than one bit, is a very key point to note); the > Apollo rope ROM had one core per 192 bits, or 12 words of 16 bits each, > "thousands of ... cores" per memory rope. See: > > http://web.mit.edu/digitalapollo/Digital%20Apollo%20Annotated.doc > > and there's a picture of one here: > > http://klabs.org/mapld04/presentations/session_g/g1007_hall_s.ppt > > (see slide #15). > > Those notes do contain an interesting aside: "rearrange the program's > fixed-memory allocations to avoid cases where such sets of 12 words contained > too many ones to fit in their cores", which implies that the cores were > fairly small, physically (since a one involved running the wire _through_ the > core, not around it). > > I don't know why they didn't make the cores larger, and have fewer of them; > my suspicion is that in manufacturing terms, it was easier to have more of > them, with less wires through each one. (I can't think of an _electrical_ > reason to do so; unlike with RAM cores, where smaller cores are faster to > switch, and take less power to do so.) I recall seeing a partial description of the AGC ROM some time ago, with the diagram in the doc you link, but it didn't explain fully its relatively complex organisation, it would be interesting to study it further. Coincidentally, I'm working on a Wang 520 right now, a descendant of the Wang 700 Rick mentioned, which uses a 2048-word * 42-bit core rope ROM for the microcontrol store. There can be over 1000 or 2000 address lines going through a given core. From useddec at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 23:20:16 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 23:20:16 -0500 Subject: DEC Professional 350 - video issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I might have a spare board and maybe even a print set. I'll try to check tomorrow. I plan on selling all of my DECMATE, PRO350 and PRO 380 systems and parts. A list member inquired about it several months ago, but never got back to me. Or maybe I dropped the ball... Paul On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 2:35 PM, John Ames wrote: > Back in November I dropped in on a list member's moving giveaway and > came away with some DEC stuff, among which was a DEC Professional 350 > with keyboard and monitor. As the previous owner informed me, the > video isn't working; there's no picture on the monitor, but there's > visible sync lines, and the diagnostic lights on the back of the unit > indicate an error with the bitmap graphics card. I'm pretty sure it's > an issue with the card and not the slot, since the error moves with > the card when I install it in one of the other slots, but I'm not sure > what to look for on the card itself - nothing is socketed, so it's not > chip creep, and the card connector looks to be in good shape. > > Does anybody have any advice for diagnosing and repairing this? I'd > really like to get it working. Failing that, does anybody have a spare > for the video card? (It's DEC part number 54-15138.) I've got a > Rainbow I'd be willing to trade for a working one (base unit only - I > don't have the facilities to test it, but according to the owner it > was in working condition.) > From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 02:25:43 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 01:25:43 -0600 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <20150410222343.BFCFB18C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:58 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Coincidentally, I'm working on a Wang 520 right now, a descendant of the Wang 700 Rick mentioned, which uses a 2048-word * 42-bit core rope ROM for the microcontrol store. There can be over 1000 or 2000 address lines going through a given core. That is amazing! The core rope memory systems I've read descriptions of have used far fewer addresses per core. For a 2Kx42 ROM with 1K addresses per core, that would only need a maximum of 84 cores (and perhaps only 42 if the distribution of ones and zeros was uniform enough for each bit of the word), but they'd have to be fairly large cores. I'd have expected it to be more cost effective for manufacture to use a much smaller number of addresses per core, which would allow use of smaller cores, ease the manufacturing, and probably have better SNR of the output pulses. However, I'm sure the engineers at Wang knew far more about it than I do, so they undoubtedly chose the most cost-effective design that met their reliability objectives. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 02:54:57 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 01:54:57 -0600 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 2:43 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: > DEC-Digital-1972-GT40-vector-graphics-system-PDP11-PDP-11 > http://www.ebay.com/itm/231477915161 > If I could afford it I wouldn't sweat the shipping cost. If there are multiple buyers willing to pay that much for a GT40, I'd be tempted to sell, except that I was given the GT40 by a friend, so selling it would be inappropriate. Back in 2009, when CHM still had "Visible Storage"[*] and their "Timeline of Computer History" was just in the planning stages, I was asked whether I'd be willing to donate or lend the GT40 for an exhibit. I was definitely willing and even eager to do so. However, their plans changed, and it didn't happen. They don't have room to exhibit every interesting machine they might want to, and they've done a pretty good job of showing representative samples of many technologies. The last time I powered up the GT40 it had developed a fault which caused intermittent errors in the vertical positioning of points and line endpoints. I'm nearly certain that it was a fault in the digital electronics, prior to the vertical ADC, but did not have time to diagnose and repair it. Eric * Visible Storage was so-called because it wasn't considered to be true museum-grade exhibits. I have had no training in museum studies, so to my amateur eye the only thing it lacked was the glossy production values, which make things more presentable to the general public but are of no consequence to enthusiasts. Of course, the museum depends a lot on having appeal to the general public; aside from some generous wealthy benefactors, enthusiasts alone don't provide enough funding for such a museum. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 03:00:21 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 03:00:21 -0500 Subject: This may be the most impressive demo I've ever seen. In-Reply-To: <01b801d07418$db1a5ec0$914f1c40$@net> References: <01b801d07418$db1a5ec0$914f1c40$@net> Message-ID: One question that could be asked, is - If IBM PC hardware had 'frozen' in this basic state for a number of years, much as did the C-64 hardware, how long would it have taken for the software to equal what we've seen demonstrated here? Necessity is the mother of invention.. makes one wonder just what's been missed, with the rapid evolution of x86 and the now near-universal availability of cheap compute cycles and vast system resources. On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:32 AM, Ali wrote: > > http://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-all-your- > > emulators/ > > > > This is a demo for the original 4.77MHz 8088 IBM PC with CGA. No sound > > card, no hard disk, but 640kB of RAM. > > > > It's astounding, from the music to the 256-colour graphics. An amazing > > piece of work. > > I couldn't agree more. The original 8088 Corruption by Trixter was > impressive. This is beyond words. I've been looking to see if I can DL it > to use on my own systems. I will drop Trixter a line on VCF. Could you > imagine if someone had done this, say in 1983, at Comdex? People would have > gone nuts! > > -Ali > > From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 03:40:53 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 02:40:53 -0600 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: <5524E5FC.6020705@tiscali.it> References: <5524E5FC.6020705@tiscali.it> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:25 AM, F.Ulivi wrote: > I checked this up in the manual where it explicitly says > that masked ROMs (8041A) can be read with the same verification > procedure as the EPROMs (without applying programming voltage, though). > I probably was applying modern mindset to the question by assuming that > back in the 1970s people were obssessed with protecting code from > cloning as they are now... Customers were always worried about it, but the IC vendors absolutely *had* to have a way to easily verify the full chip functionality, including verifying the ROM contents, so for a while that was more important than code security. As customers' interest in code security increased, first the vendors stopped documenting the verification mode of their chips (security through obscurity), and later implemented "real" security, for small values of "real". > Unfortunately for me, this makes little difference as I have no chip to > dump... :) For all that I used a Series III MDS for *years*, I never actually took the cover off one back in the day, so I've seen the documentation on the IOC, but haven't previously seen the actual board. I have at hand an MDS-220 made in 1977, which I acquired some years back, and I no longer remember where this particular unit came from. It has the original 8080-based IPB CPU module, rather than the later 8085-based IPC. It does have an SBC 032 memory board to bring it up ot the full 64KB of RAM> Before today I had never powered up this particular MDS, but I did so a few hours ago. The first attempt did not produce a beep or any raster on the monitor, even with the brightness cranked to maximum. It turns out that two of the connectors to the IOC card were floating loose in the box, and one of the molex connectors was quite mangled. I can't really imagine how that happened, as the casing shows no obvious signs of abuse, only normal wear. I formed the connector pins back in to position as best I could by hand, and it now seems to work in diagnostic mode, which only tests the IOC. I haven't yet tried to use the ROM monitor of the IPB, and I don't presently have an ISIS-II boot floppy, or a CP/M boot floppy for the MDS, for that matter. There is some jitter in the vertical deflection, which seems to get worse as it warms up. Perhaps there is a capacitor going bad in the HV supply, though I'm no expert on CRT display repair. I've removed the IOC card and taken some photographs in preparation for dumping the EPROMs and the 8041A ROM. I'll have to knock together an apparatus to read the 8041A, but that shouldn't be difficult, other than that I can't use any of the modern microcontrollers I usually design with nowdays, because they aren't 5V tolerant. This IOC is the original model (not the IOC-III), but rather than the original fimrware it probably has the iMDX 511 IOC Firmware Enhancement Kit, because the keyboard does have the "FUNC" keycap which replaced the older "RPT" keycap. The IOC has four 2716 EPROMs of firmware, with part numbers 104692-001 through -004, a 2708 that I suspect is the character generator, part number 101539-001, and the 8041A, part number 104566-001. The photos of the IOC card are at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157651893890975/ From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 11 04:22:26 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 10:22:26 +0100 Subject: This may be the most impressive demo I've ever seen. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5528E7D2.6020605@btinternet.com> On 10/04/2015 22:56, Liam Proven wrote: > http://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-all-your-emulators/ > > This is a demo for the original 4.77MHz 8088 IBM PC with CGA. No > sound card, no hard disk, but 640kB of RAM. > > It's astounding, from the music to the 256-colour graphics. An amazing > piece of work. > Reaction: UK English version " Flippin eck!!" US English version "Now that is really cool!!" Rod Smallwood From rickb at bensene.com Sat Apr 11 09:00:37 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 07:00:37 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <20150410222343.BFCFB18C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > That is amazing! The core rope memory systems I've read descriptions of > have used far fewer addresses per core. For a 2Kx42 ROM with 1K addresses > per core, that would only need a maximum of 84 cores (and perhaps only 42 > if the distribution of ones and zeros was uniform enough for each bit of the > word), but they'd have to be fairly large cores. I'd have expected it to be > more cost effective for manufacture to use a much smaller number of > addresses per core, which would allow use of smaller cores, ease the > manufacturing, and probably have better SNR of the output pulses. > However, I'm sure the engineers at Wang knew far more about it than I do, > so they undoubtedly chose the most cost-effective design that met their > reliability objectives. The Wang 700/600/500-series ROMs weren't really core rope. They were, as Brent pointed out, more a form of pulse transformer memory. The ferrite element in these ROMs is horseshoe-shaped, and inserted in a plastic form that has two hollow tubes, one for each "leg" of the horseshoe. One tube has a specific number of coils of wire wrapped around it, and serves as the secondary for the "transformer". The other plastic tube has myriad wires wrapped around it, either clockwise or counter-clockwise. When current passes through one of these myriad wires, it creates a pulse in the secondary coil, either positively- or negatively-going, depending on which direction the wire was wound around the primary tube. You can see details about the construction at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/wang720.html. Scroll down about 7/8ths of the way through the page and you can see the details. I built a device that reads the content of these ROMs, both to troubleshoot them, as well as to capture the microcode for the machines so as to write an emulator that allows the code to be run on more modern hardware. It's quite amazing, as inspecting these ROMs carefully, it can be seen that there are cases where wires broke in the weaving process, and were simply dipped in lacqure at the end (to prevent shorts) and would around one of the wire guides to keep it out of the way. There are also splices done, where the tiny wire was joined with a tiny bit of solder, and then the joint covered with lacquer. The patience involved with doing the kind of work was amazing. Wang had machines that tested the ROMs and would point of flaws, and they would be sent back to a department of patient ladies who would fix any bugs in the ROMs by putting in new wires, cutting mis-wound wires and re-wiring them, and repairing broken wires. -Rick Bensene From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 11 09:12:31 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 10:12:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap Message-ID: <20150411141231.D6E6318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> On Thu, 9 Apr 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> The real problem is that there's 'grup' (a Dave Clark neologism) in >> the thin space between the plastic contact pin housing blocks and the >> PCB. Needless to say, one can't take the PCB off to get in there... >> >> So my plan of action is to stick them in water for a couple of days, >> and then use a water jet to try and get down in the thin gap between >> the contact blocks and the PCB, to clean it out. Hi, all, thanks for all the suggestions: alas, they won't really help with this part of the problem, since the gap between the PCB and the pin contact housing blocks is only about 1mm (less in some cases) and there's no way I know of to get any kind of effective brush into a gap that small. Maybe something akin to dental floss, but that would be about it. (String might be a good idea, it has a rougher surface and might be better at removing impacted grime, plus it's wider, so will do more width on each pass.) The Simple Green might be something useful to add to the bath, though. I generally use compressed air to dry boards (although I've heard rumours of possible static problems from this, I've never had a problem), which is easy for me since I have a 5HP compressor in the basement. It mostly blows the water (along with any dissolved minerals, although I usually try and finish with a douse of distilled) right off the board. > From: Tothwolf > There /is/ actually a source for replacement gold fingers (and copper > trace material), but that sort of stuff can get expensive if you need > to replace a lot of them. Actually, I wouldn't try and replace the traces; I'd just use wire, and solder the ends onto the remains. (I'm more into functionality than cosmetics. If anyone is really intense about the cosmetics, please let me know, I'd be interesting in hiring you to fix the two boards... :-) The gold contact fingers are another matter, and for them I thank you for your very useful pointer: > You might try contacting http://circuitmedic.com/ and see if they have > any replacement gold fingers the correct width. I have yet to look into this, but I'm sure they'll have something that will serve. The standard DEC contact fingers are 2.2mm wide, but some off-brand boards use fingers as narrow as 1.6mm, so I expect they'll have _something_ I can use. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 11 09:26:45 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 10:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UK PDP11 wanted Message-ID: <20150411142645.AC16618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Turnbull > Are you confusing it with a KDJ11-A ... But this is a KDJ11-B Nope. Have several of both (IYWR, it was my looking at my various M8190's that led me to the conclusion that all M8190's, no matter the version, can do PMI). > Basically what makes the difference is whether it's using PMI memory or > QBus memory. ... If you change the config to not use PMI, an 11/83 > becomes an 11/73. After thinking about this for a while, the terminology does now make sense to me, if it's applied to _systems_, not _boards_. An 11/73 is a _system_ with no PMI memory usage (one can of course plug PMI memory into a system with an M8192, but that won't make it use it, i.e. become an 11/83). An 11/83 is a _system_ with PMI memory in use (an M8190, plus PMI memory). But I still think of the _cards_ as either an '11/73 CPU' (M8192) or '11/83-84 CPU' (M8190). The '11-83/84' part does lead to an interesting question: what do we call a _system_ with an M8190, a KTJ11 (M8191), and no PMI memory, only regular QBUS memory? (Not sure if this will work... but it should, I'll try it soon and see. Also, this part is for fun, not serious!) Analogizing to the 73/83 distinction, one might say that it's not an 84, but a '74'... but that number is already taken! :-) Noel From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Apr 11 09:33:48 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 16:33:48 +0200 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: <20150411142645.AC16618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150411142645.AC16618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <552930CC.2050502@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-11 16:26, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Pete Turnbull > > > Are you confusing it with a KDJ11-A ... But this is a KDJ11-B > > Nope. Have several of both (IYWR, it was my looking at my various M8190's > that led me to the conclusion that all M8190's, no matter the version, can > do PMI). As far as I know, that is correct. > > Basically what makes the difference is whether it's using PMI memory or > > QBus memory. ... If you change the config to not use PMI, an 11/83 > > becomes an 11/73. > > After thinking about this for a while, the terminology does now make sense to > me, if it's applied to _systems_, not _boards_. Yes. > An 11/73 is a _system_ with no PMI memory usage (one can of course plug PMI > memory into a system with an M8192, but that won't make it use it, i.e. > become an 11/83). An 11/83 is a _system_ with PMI memory in use (an M8190, > plus PMI memory). Right. > But I still think of the _cards_ as either an '11/73 CPU' (M8192) or > '11/83-84 CPU' (M8190). I understand that, but it don't really make sense, as the M8190 can exist both in an 11/73 and an 11/83 (and also the 11/84). > The '11-83/84' part does lead to an interesting question: what do we call a > _system_ with an M8190, a KTJ11 (M8191), and no PMI memory, only regular QBUS > memory? (Not sure if this will work... but it should, I'll try it soon and > see. Also, this part is for fun, not serious!) Should not work, as far as I know. The CPU bus on an 11/84 is always PMI. It is not a Qbus. > Analogizing to the 73/83 distinction, one might say that it's not an 84, but > a '74'... but that number is already taken! :-) Right. Apart from the fact that you cannot put Qbus memory in an 11/84. However, you could put Unibus memory on the system, I think. But it will not be that usable, as it will only exist in the 18-bit address space. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 11 09:47:42 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 10:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UK PDP11 wanted Message-ID: <20150411144742.8078B18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist >> a _system_ with an M8190, a KTJ11 (M8191), and no PMI memory, only >> regular QBUS memory? (Not sure if this will work... but it should, >> I'll try it soon and see. > Should not work, as far as I know. The CPU bus on an 11/84 is always > PMI. We had a prior discussion about this. Remember the jumpers I found on the 11/84 backplane? They can turn the PMI section (AFAICT) into a real QBUS. But that's if one wanted to use a QBUS _device_ in an 11/84 backplane (in the PMI part, of course). For QBUS _memory_, it should 'just work', in the same way that you can plug an M8190 into a Q/CD backplane with some QBUS memory, and it will 'just work'. (I.e. the M8190 will automatically do QBUS memory cycles if that's the kind of memory that's out there.) Now, whether the _KTJ11_ will work properly with QBUS memory instead of PMI - no idea on that one! :-) Noel From jws at jwsss.com Sat Apr 11 09:53:04 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 07:53:04 -0700 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <55293550.8070103@jwsss.com> On 4/11/2015 12:54 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > * Visible Storage was so-called because it wasn't considered to be > true museum-grade exhibits. I have had no training in museum studies, > so to my amateur eye the only thing it lacked was the glossy > production values, which make things more presentable to the general > public but are of no consequence to enthusiasts. Of course, the museum > depends a lot on having appeal to the general public; aside from some > generous wealthy benefactors, enthusiasts alone don't provide enough > funding for such a museum. Al was nice enough to point out that "my" Microdata 32/S was in the Visible Storage display. It was nice to see it was selected for display. Wish they had had the IBM 1620 I had as well. From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Apr 11 10:03:31 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 17:03:31 +0200 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: <20150411144742.8078B18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150411144742.8078B18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <552937C3.3030706@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-11 16:47, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > >> a _system_ with an M8190, a KTJ11 (M8191), and no PMI memory, only > >> regular QBUS memory? (Not sure if this will work... but it should, > >> I'll try it soon and see. > > > Should not work, as far as I know. The CPU bus on an 11/84 is always > > PMI. > > We had a prior discussion about this. Remember the jumpers I found on the > 11/84 backplane? They can turn the PMI section (AFAICT) into a real QBUS. But > that's if one wanted to use a QBUS _device_ in an 11/84 backplane (in the PMI > part, of course). I don't remember any jumpers. Maybe my memory is just short... > For QBUS _memory_, it should 'just work', in the same way that you can plug > an M8190 into a Q/CD backplane with some QBUS memory, and it will 'just > work'. (I.e. the M8190 will automatically do QBUS memory cycles if that's the > kind of memory that's out there.) I'll believe that when you plug the Qbus memory *before* the CPU in a Q/CD backplane. > Now, whether the _KTJ11_ will work properly with QBUS memory instead of PMI > - no idea on that one! :-) That is also, obviously an important part here. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Apr 11 10:25:57 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 11:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UK PDP11 wanted Message-ID: <20150411152557.CBB9A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist >> Remember the jumpers I found on the 11/84 backplane? They can turn the >> PMI section (AFAICT) into a real QBUS. > I don't remember any jumpers. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-February/003756.html >> For QBUS _memory_, it should 'just work', in the same way that you can >> plug an M8190 into a Q/CD backplane with some QBUS memory, and it will 'just >> work'. (I.e. the M8190 will automatically do QBUS memory cycles if >> that's the kind of memory that's out there.) > I'll believe that when you plug the Qbus memory *before* the CPU in a > Q/CD backplane. But the QBUS part of _any_ QBUS backplane is not 'directional' in the same way the CD part of the backplane in an ordinary Q/CD backplane is. (Note that the 11/84 backplane's CD section is _not_ 'directional' the way a normal Q/CD backplane's CD section is. See: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-February/003757.html for more.) So for plain QBUS memory, it doesn't matter where it is in the QBUS backplane, in relation to the CPU. Noel From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Apr 11 10:42:54 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 17:42:54 +0200 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: <20150411152557.CBB9A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150411152557.CBB9A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <552940FE.3030203@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-11 17:25, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > >> Remember the jumpers I found on the 11/84 backplane? They can turn the > >> PMI section (AFAICT) into a real QBUS. > > > I don't remember any jumpers. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-February/003756.html Cool. I can't remember reading that post before, but those jumpers are interesting. > >> For QBUS _memory_, it should 'just work', in the same way that you can > >> plug an M8190 into a Q/CD backplane with some QBUS memory, and it will 'just > >> work'. (I.e. the M8190 will automatically do QBUS memory cycles if > >> that's the kind of memory that's out there.) > > > I'll believe that when you plug the Qbus memory *before* the CPU in a > > Q/CD backplane. > > But the QBUS part of _any_ QBUS backplane is not 'directional' in the same > way the CD part of the backplane in an ordinary Q/CD backplane is. (Note that > the 11/84 backplane's CD section is _not_ 'directional' the way a normal Q/CD > backplane's CD section is. See: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-February/003757.html > > for more.) So for plain QBUS memory, it doesn't matter where it is in the > QBUS backplane, in relation to the CPU. Good point. But there is still a question on whether the CPU just pass all signals through that you need. In a normal Qbus system, the CPU is *always* at the end, as it terminates the bus. With PMI memory, it obviously works somewhat different, since the CPU sources signals in just one direction (hence the reason the PMI memory have to be before the CPU), and as far as I understand, also interacts/intercepts with all other memory accesses to the PMI memory. Which is yet another reason why the PMI memory sits before the CPU. If you put PMI memory after the CPU, it will instead work as normal Qbus memory. So I'm still not convinced until I actually see that done. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From roeapeterson at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 10:46:21 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 09:46:21 -0600 Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: <20150411141231.D6E6318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150411141231.D6E6318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2015, at 8:12 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> contact blocks and the PCB, to clean it out. > > Hi, all, thanks for all the suggestions: alas, they won't really help with > this part of the problem, since the gap between the PCB and the pin contact > housing blocks is only about 1mm (less in some cases) and there's no way I > know of to get any kind of effective brush into a gap that small. There is a product, can't remember the name. It's basically dental floss for dentures, and comes in individual strings about 3 inches long with a cleaning tip at one end. I've used it to clean the individual internal key contacts on an HP25 calculator, going in through a key way for each key after a battery leak with verdigris corrosion. Took a bit of patience, but very effective... > > Maybe something akin to dental floss, but that would be about it. (String > might be a good idea, it has a rougher surface and might be better at removing > impacted grime, plus it's wider, so will do more width on each pass.) > > The Simple Green might be something useful to add to the bath, though. I > generally use compressed air to dry boards (although I've heard rumours of > possible static problems from this, I've never had a problem), which is easy > for me since I have a 5HP compressor in the basement. It mostly blows the > water (along with any dissolved minerals, although I usually try and finish > with a douse of distilled) right off the board. > > >> From: Tothwolf > >> There /is/ actually a source for replacement gold fingers (and copper >> trace material), but that sort of stuff can get expensive if you need >> to replace a lot of them. > > Actually, I wouldn't try and replace the traces; I'd just use wire, and solder > the ends onto the remains. (I'm more into functionality than cosmetics. If > anyone is really intense about the cosmetics, please let me know, I'd be > interesting in hiring you to fix the two boards... :-) > > The gold contact fingers are another matter, and for them I thank you for > your very useful pointer: > >> You might try contacting http://circuitmedic.com/ and see if they have >> any replacement gold fingers the correct width. > > I have yet to look into this, but I'm sure they'll have something that will > serve. The standard DEC contact fingers are 2.2mm wide, but some off-brand > boards use fingers as narrow as 1.6mm, so I expect they'll have _something_ > I can use. > > Noel From marvin at west.net Sat Apr 11 12:13:26 2015 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 10:13:26 -0700 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? Message-ID: <55295636.9030302@west.net> The PDP16 had a constants card circa 1972 or so. The constants card was basically cores with hand threaded wire done by the customer, and acted like a ROM. I don't remember the capacity, but IIRC it was about 16 bytes. > Did the PDP14 (or any machine of that era) ever use hand-threaded (by the > end user) core boards as ROM? > > tnx. > > g. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Apr 11 13:34:43 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 13:34:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: <20150411141231.D6E6318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150411141231.D6E6318C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Apr 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> On Thu, 9 Apr 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > >> The real problem is that there's 'grup' (a Dave Clark neologism) in > >> the thin space between the plastic contact pin housing blocks and the > >> PCB. Needless to say, one can't take the PCB off to get in there... > >> > >> So my plan of action is to stick them in water for a couple of days, > >> and then use a water jet to try and get down in the thin gap between > >> the contact blocks and the PCB, to clean it out. > > Hi, all, thanks for all the suggestions: alas, they won't really help > with this part of the problem, since the gap between the PCB and the pin > contact housing blocks is only about 1mm (less in some cases) and > there's no way I know of to get any kind of effective brush into a gap > that small. > > Maybe something akin to dental floss, but that would be about it. > (String might be a good idea, it has a rougher surface and might be > better at removing impacted grime, plus it's wider, so will do more > width on each pass.) > > The Simple Green might be something useful to add to the bath, though. I > generally use compressed air to dry boards (although I've heard rumours > of possible static problems from this, I've never had a problem), which > is easy for me since I have a 5HP compressor in the basement. It mostly > blows the water (along with any dissolved minerals, although I usually > try and finish with a douse of distilled) right off the board. Simple Green will eliminate that...smell ;) Could you use an aquarium pump and a long airstone / bubbler to help clean the boards using aeration? Or, maybe get in there with a Waterpik? From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:49:17 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 12:49:17 -0600 Subject: Hand-wired core for ROM? In-Reply-To: <55295636.9030302@west.net> References: <55295636.9030302@west.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > The PDP16 had a constants card circa 1972 or so. The constants card was > basically cores with hand threaded wire done by the customer, and acted like > a ROM. I don't remember the capacity, but IIRC it was about 16 bytes. That was the MR16-D "constants memory", M7325. It stored 24 words of 16 bits each, so the overall capacity was 48 bytes. The module sold for $150 in 1972. Unlike the other PDP-n machines, the PDP-16 was not a computer with a standard instruction set, but rather was essentially a set of Register Transfer Modules (RTM) primarily intended for building hardwired systems using asynchronous control logic, though there were also 16-bit data path and memory modules, including larger ROM modules that could be used as a microcode control store. The asynchronous control flow worked in a similar manner to many early PDP-n machines, where at any given moment usually only one functional was active, and when it was done, as it became inactive it sent a pulse to the next functional unit. Branches in flow were done by having a unit decide which of several units to send the pulse to. In the PDP-16 RTMs there was also provision for subroutines. However, DEC did offer a preconfigured PDP-16/M computer, which was built from the PDP-16 RTM modules, but used them to implement a more conventional 16-bit processor which did have a standard instruction set (though not matching that of any other DEC machine). A normal PDP-16/M used the PDP-8/M chassis and power supply, though it could also be purchased as only the backplane and modules. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 11 14:16:39 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 21:16:39 +0200 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <003901d0748c$0b906400$22b12c00$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jim Stephens > Verzonden: vrijdag 10 april 2015 10:43 > Aan: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org :On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands > > DEC-Digital-1972-GT40-vector-graphics-system-PDP11-PDP-11 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/231477915161 > > If I could afford it I wouldn't sweat the shipping cost. > > I think someone had posted what board did the graphics. Has that ever been > given consideration for being added to SIMH for the 11? > > I'd love to run Lander, which I think is running on the system as shown. > > To Al: There was also a system like this at USL, which I wish had been conveyed > to you. I suspect it was not. There was a new in the box replacement CRT > because someone had had the system halt and burned the phosphor. You had to > watch the system and never let the dot stop. If it stopped at a spot on the > phosphor in the on position, you'd etch the phosphor. > > Ours (USL) never ran anything but Lander, so until someone with a project came > along, we were saving the tube. The burn didn't affect lander much at all. > > thanks > Jim The seller is Erik Brent. -Rik From go at aerodesic.com Sat Apr 11 19:35:06 2015 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 17:35:06 -0700 Subject: Color codes for DEC power supply terminals? Message-ID: <5529BDBA.9040803@aerodesic.com> I'm trying to determine if DEC used any standards when choosing colors for the power terminal connections on their power supply systems. I have a non DEC 'DECTape' drive I'm in the process of bringing back from the dead and am troubled by the manufacturers use of colors on their terminals. Some make sense: 'black', 'white', 'green' for primary color, although there is a block of 'red' used as an alternate connection to the 'black' (USA: 'hot' leg) of the primary (115VAC) connection. Others include 'blue', 'yellow' and 'orange'. I'm familiar with DEC's use of 'red' for +5, and 'orange' for +15 (or perhaps it was +12) but these do not seem to be the choices here. I've consulted my list of 'small computer handbooks' and 'interfacing' DEC books but haven't found anything useful. Also search google with many many permutations. Any ideas? Perhaps the manufacturer just pulled some out of their hat. Thanks, Gary From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 20:13:16 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 20:13:16 -0500 Subject: VCF SE 3.0 T-shirts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Atlanta Historical Computing Society is selling t-shirts for our show on May 2nd and 3rd. They're available on Kickstarter, but if you would prefer, send me an email and we can work out alternate payment options. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/20859909/help-fund-the-vintage-computer-festival-southeast-0 Right now, our speakers include Jason Scott, Robert Uiterwyk, Malcolm Macleod, and several podcasts. Our theme this year is celebrating the big birthdays, including the PDP-8, the Altair 8800, and the Amiga 1000. Also, if anyone's interested in exhibiting, let me know. More info about the show at vintage.org. Thanks, Kyle From go at ao-cs.com Sat Apr 11 13:32:37 2015 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 11:32:37 -0700 Subject: Color codes for DEC power supply terminals? Message-ID: <552968C5.1060505@ao-cs.com> I'm trying to determine if DEC used any standards when choosing colors for the terminal connections on their power supply systems. I have a non DEC 'DECTape' drive I'm in the process of bringing back from the dead and am troubled by the manufacturers use of colors on their terminals. Some make sense: 'black', 'white', 'green' for primary color, although there is a block of 'red' used as an alternate connection to the 'black' (USA: 'hot' leg) of the primary (115VAC) connection. Others include 'blue', 'yellow' and 'orange'. I'm familiar with DEC's use of 'red' for +5, and 'orange' for +15 (or perhaps it was +12) but these do not seem to be the choices here. I've consulted my list of 'small computer handbooks' and 'interfacing' DEC books but haven't found anything useful. Also search google with many many permutations. Any ideas? Perhaps the manufacturer just pulled some out of their hat. Thanks, Gary From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 12 00:16:29 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 05:16:29 +0000 Subject: Color codes for DEC power supply terminals? In-Reply-To: <552968C5.1060505@ao-cs.com> References: <552968C5.1060505@ao-cs.com> Message-ID: > > I'm trying to determine if DEC used any standards when choosing colors > for the terminal connections on their power supply systems. I have a > non DEC 'DECTape' drive I'm in the process of bringing back from the > dead and am troubled by the manufacturers use of colors on their > terminals. Some make sense: 'black', 'white', 'green' for primary > color, although there is a block of 'red' used as an alternate > connection to the 'black' (USA: 'hot' leg) of the primary (115VAC) > connection. Red was used for mains live (hot, line, phase) in England until the 1970s, I remember the change to the brown/blue/green&yellow we have now in flexible cables, and in internal equipment wiring long after that. Confusingly (for you) [1] black was used for neutral (your white). [1] Not as confusing as the change to fixed wiring, e.g. in buildings. Until about 10 years ago in the UK, the 3 phases (live) were red,yellow,blue with a black neutral. Now they are brown,grey,black with a blue neutral. Which means if you see a distribtion board fed with a black and a blue wire it could be either way round depending on when the wiring was installed. Needless to say the only thing to do is what you'd do anyway, check it. > Others include 'blue', 'yellow' and 'orange'. > > I'm familiar with DEC's use of 'red' for +5, and 'orange' for +15 (or > perhaps it was +12) but these do not seem to be the choices here. Blue was commonly used for -15V by DEC. I think the printsets of DEC backplanes (and things like the 11/45, 11/34 CPU) give some of the colours on the diagrams. > Any ideas? Perhaps the manufacturer just pulled some out of their hat. Yes! AFAIK, there are regulations that specify the colours to be used in the mains cable, and nobody would be stupid enough not to follow them. But for the internal power wiring of a device, or the special cable between a PSU and its device, all bets are off. -tony From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 02:35:05 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 00:35:05 -0700 Subject: Looking for SMD drives (specific models) Message-ID: <552A2029.8040501@gmail.com> So I had the Ridge 32 running again (when I went to debug the -12V supply it had started working again, so I'll take that for now, I suppose). After running for an hour the SMD drive (a Fujitsu 2312) in it failed. At power up, the drive spins up and when it attempts to load the heads, there's a loud *clunk* and the drive then quickly spins down. (If anyone has any bright ideas, let me know...) I have a few other SMD drives (just picked 'em up today, in fact) but they're newer (~825mb) and the Ridge disc utilities only support a small subset of drives (they do not support providing custom geometries, because that would be *too easy*.) Here are the disks it lists as supported; some of these are pretty insane (CDC 9762? Really? Not sure about the Pertecs either...) but the Fujitsu's aren't entirely out of the question: Fujitsu: 2351A (Eagle, don't I wish) 2322 2333 2312 2344 Priam: 806 807 Pertec: DX 300 DX 332 DX 548 DX 199 DX 265 DX 365 CDC: 9766 9762 Anyone have one of the above they'd be willing to sell/trade/etc? Thanks as always, Josh From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 02:51:43 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 01:51:43 -0600 Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150410) In-Reply-To: <898841365.102691.1428685390379.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <898841365.102691.1428685390379.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 11:03 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > d) AFAICT ZFS doesn't use the trick used by some *ix filesystems of packing the data contents for small files into the directory. > (to do so would clash with the reliability focus of ZFS) That capability has recently been added to OpenZFS as the "embedded_data" feature, so it is now available on Illumos, FreeBSD, Linux, and OSX: "When this feature is enabled, the contents of highly-compressible blocks are stored in the block "pointer" itself (a misnomer in this case, as it contains the compresseed data, rather than a pointer to its location on disk). Thus the space of the block (one sector, typically 512 bytes or 4KB) is saved, and no additional i/o is needed to read and write the data block." From andy.holt at tesco.net Sun Apr 12 04:14:10 2015 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 09:14:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150410) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1392995368.119090.1428830050347.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" >>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 11:03 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > d) AFAICT ZFS doesn't use the trick used by some *ix filesystems of packing the data contents for small files into the directory. > (to do so would clash with the reliability focus of ZFS) [[ I did, of course, mean inode or file pointer rather than directory ]] That capability has recently been added to OpenZFS as the "embedded_data" feature, so it is now available on Illumos, FreeBSD, Linux, and OSX: "When this feature is enabled, the contents of highly-compressible blocks are stored in the block "pointer" itself (a misnomer in this case, as it contains the compresseed data, rather than a pointer to its location on disk). Thus the space of the block (one sector, typically 512 bytes or 4KB) is saved, and no additional i/o is needed to read and write the data block." <<<< That information - together with the implicit note that the blocksize is MUCH smaller than implied by the wikipedia article - would modify my answer :( Looking at the man page I see that - at least on some systems - the default blocksize is 8Kb rather than the 128KB that the wiki article states and that I took as the basis for my calculation. That alone would be sufficient to give reverse my answer. I think my assumption of no "embedded data" is more valid. It is a feature less than 12 months old so only the most "bleeding edge" distributions are likely to consider it safe to enable by default and, given how inexpensive storage is nowadays (3TB for ?100 approx), seems unlikely to be of massive value except on systems with huge numbers of very small files. But, thanks for the information anyhow. Andy From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Apr 12 06:20:39 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 13:20:39 +0200 Subject: Kalok Octagon Seriels Modell 330 Hardisk Service Manual? Message-ID: <20150412112039.GC9560@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi all, Is a SM ior Schematics for an Kalok Octagon Series RLL Harddisks out there? ..don't think that such a thing exists but I would have asked. That are the loud 30MB RLL 3,5" full height Harddisks. I have one that spins up, steps hardly against the internal stopper for a while and spins down again. Lookedwith a scope to the stepper phases and they aren't looking normal at all. The Drivers are 4 IRFR110 driven from 7406's... Would use that disk in a CP/M System with an OMTI5520 Controller. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 06:22:40 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 05:22:40 -0600 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <003901d0748c$0b906400$22b12c00$@xs4all.nl> References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> <003901d0748c$0b906400$22b12c00$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > The seller is Erik Brent. Isn't that the guy that parted out the last known existing Electrologica X1 and X8 computers, rather than donating them to a museum, because he couldn't find anyone that would pay a fortune for them? From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 12 06:32:15 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 13:32:15 +0200 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> <003901d0748c$0b906400$22b12c00$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Yep, Erik $$$$ B. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Eric Smith" Verzonden: ?12-?4-?2015 13:22 Aan: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Onderwerp: Re: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > The seller is Erik Brent. Isn't that the guy that parted out the last known existing Electrologica X1 and X8 computers, rather than donating them to a museum, because he couldn't find anyone that would pay a fortune for them? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 10:28:49 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 10:28:49 -0500 Subject: This may be the most impressive demo I've ever seen. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <552A8F31.1010102@gmail.com> On 04/10/2015 04:56 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > http://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-all-your-emulators/ > > This is a demo for the original 4.77MHz 8088 IBM PC with CGA. No > sound card, no hard disk, but 640kB of RAM. > > It's astounding, from the music to the 256-colour graphics. An amazing > piece of work. That is pretty impressive. I was hoping to try running it on real hardware (I think a 5160 should work in place of their 5150) but I'm not sure that I've got a CGA card (just MDA and EGA) :-( Will have to do some more digging... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 11:05:39 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 11:05:39 -0500 Subject: Looking for SMD drives (specific models) In-Reply-To: <552A2029.8040501@gmail.com> References: <552A2029.8040501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <552A97D3.4000500@gmail.com> On 04/12/2015 02:35 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a few other SMD drives (just picked 'em up today, in fact) but > they're newer (~825mb) and the Ridge disc utilities only support a small > subset of drives (they do not support providing custom geometries, because > that would be *too easy*.) Can you "under format" an SMD drive? i.e. if you have a drive with equal or greater cylinders and heads will it automagically work at a lower capacity that's supported by your formatter? cheers Jules From simski at dds.nl Sun Apr 12 13:42:15 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 20:42:15 +0200 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> <003901d0748c$0b906400$22b12c00$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <552ABC87.60901@dds.nl> well, not exactly. there is a X8 here in Arnhem still in existence. :-) but unfortunately not ours. :-( Oh well, enought to take care of already... On 12-04-15 13:22, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Rik Bos wrote: >> The seller is Erik Brent. > > Isn't that the guy that parted out the last known existing > Electrologica X1 and X8 computers, rather than donating them to a > museum, because he couldn't find anyone that would pay a fortune for > them? > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 14:15:31 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 12:15:31 -0700 Subject: Looking for SMD drives (specific models) In-Reply-To: <552A97D3.4000500@gmail.com> References: <552A2029.8040501@gmail.com> <552A97D3.4000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <552AC453.9000603@gmail.com> On 4/12/15 9:05 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/12/2015 02:35 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I have a few other SMD drives (just picked 'em up today, in fact) but >> they're newer (~825mb) and the Ridge disc utilities only support a small >> subset of drives (they do not support providing custom geometries, >> because >> that would be *too easy*.) > > Can you "under format" an SMD drive? i.e. if you have a drive with > equal or greater cylinders and heads will it automagically work at a > lower capacity that's supported by your formatter? > > cheers > > Jules > > The thought had crossed my mind; the problem is that the large drives I have have fewer cylinders than the ones in that list -- 700-something vs 800+, so the drives format fine up until the last cylinder is reached... Thanks, Josh From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 15:10:10 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 14:10:10 -0600 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <552ABC87.60901@dds.nl> References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> <003901d0748c$0b906400$22b12c00$@xs4all.nl> <552ABC87.60901@dds.nl> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: > well, not exactly. there is a X8 here in Arnhem still in existence. :-) but Oh! That's good to hear. I keep hoping that someone saved a copy of THE. From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Sun Apr 12 09:29:17 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 17:29:17 +0300 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,,, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, ,,, ,,<550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com>, ,,, ,,<550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com>, , <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com>,,<550DED67.70509@jwsss.com>, , <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com>, ,,, ,,, ,,<00a701d068d2$bcf29620$36d7c260$@gmail.com>, ,,<44B3E19E5886460D92052BCDCC637140@310e2>, ,,, , , , , , , , Message-ID: Some progress... We made little trip couple days ago and now 1800 is disassembled. It took 6 hours with breaks to disassemble all doors, side panels, "hats", power sources, floor cabling and etc stuff. Firstly I thought this IBM is like some spaceship on its complexity, but this is quite simple machine. Very straightforward design, every part has own logical place and there is not too much cabling (and everything is clearly labeled!). There was four of us, so I think we made quite progress in that time. Also we had to measure every cable before touching them, there was little possiability there is still some "hot" cables (mostly because same wires can go throught cable ducts which are still use and electrify floating wires by induction). Here's pics: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-UHNPN2J1QzFKWG8&usp=sharing ...so we are ready to bring this whole thing down to the stairs next week! And then some findings: both 2311 has leaked their fluids and roof has leaked over 1443 ( = rust). All rubber parts (like flat cabling bounds) are like potato chips. Doors and side panels need new paint. CPU's ALD manuals are long gone, only ALD which we found was for 1443. But something good too: it seems 1800 99.90% intact (However, there have been visited some "guest stars" in last 30 years, so something can be taken there as souviner or some parts can be removed and put back to wrong places). Also some other nice findings were IO tester inside of 2841 and "Heili's" framed naming testinomy from 1971! :D More coming later! - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 22:57:44 +0200 > > > > I don't need the manual, just noticed it on the pictures. > > Better keep it yourself, as V7 documentation is more difficult to > > find today. > Ok, I understood you wrong. But I'll pick up everything what is related anything anything old computers! I'll make later catalog of this library, maybe there is something useful for someone. > > Looking forward to hear more about your efforts moving the machine > > from it's current locattion to the new one and getting it to work > > again. > Of course, more updates comes later when project goes further! > > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > > > Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 17:05:19 +0100 > > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > From: quapla at xs4all.nl > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Hello Johannes. > > > > I don't need the manual, just noticed it on the pictures. > > Better keep it yourself, as V7 documentation is more difficult to > > find today. > > > > Looking forward to hear more about your efforts moving the machine > > from it's current locattion to the new one and getting it to work > > again. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ed > > > > > > >> I also noted that there is an Oracle manual of some sort on top of > > >> a gray-ish machinepart(?). That would be interesting, as this software > > >> was available on IBM under MVS/VM. It could either be version 4.1.x > > >> or version 5.0.x. If you come across that pack and it still works, > > >> then you have access to an old and most likely working version of > > >> a RDBMS. In that case, give me a shout and I could help you though > > >> some command and some info to put it in action. > > >> > > > Hi Ed! I'm sure we get it for you ;) ...I have to just book everything > > > what we carry out there, I think we have no problem to get it for you > > > (shared joy is best joy :) > > > > > > But I can't find anything else Oracle stuff on the pics than Oracle's > > > Server 7 pack over 1442 card read/punch (that greyish box)..? Did you ment > > > that? > > > > > > > > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > > > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > > > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com > > >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > >> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > >> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:54:45 +0200 > > >> > > >> > > >> Hello everybody! > > >> > > >> It is quite big system as everything in that place. However, somehow > > >> they made that stairway still small... :/ I know there is few people who > > >> would do something like this big/crazy project even they would want, it > > >> is question of time/space/money, but mostly will and too far gone old > > >> computer obsession :D > > >> > > >> By the way, my girlfriend saw first time this 1800, and she said "that > > >> is not that big computer"... What?! I'm not sure who I'm with, maybe she > > >> has some IBM Strecth on hers basement and she has not told me everything > > >> :D > > >> > > >> One more fun thing, this computer have name: Heili. It is Finnish girl's > > >> name, usually computer are named here man's names far as I know. It can > > >> be named later by workers, I think it probably had no name originally. > > >> However, even it have almost pink dress, I would not called couple tons > > >> weighted monster as "girl", there could better expressions for it ;) > > >> ...but she is pretty in her own way for sure! > > >> > > >> Anyways, I have rolled cabinets on Inventor (3D designing soft, not on > > >> real life!) and it seems all cabinets can bend on the stairways easily. > > >> I hope I can done whole thing under three days nice and clean, without > > >> breaking anything (IBM either donaters walls/floors) > > >> > > >> > > >> I'll make now official moving plan for donater, make needed tools, get > > >> trucks, safety equipment and insurances for the crew then we are ready > > >> to go! Also I'm taking with me welding equipment and wood working stuff, > > >> so we can make backup plan on the scene if needed. > > >> > > >> Any ideas or questions are welcome! > > >> > > >> Ps. Happy weekend for everyone! > > >> > > >> > > >> - Johannes ThelenFinland > > >> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > > >> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:20:53 -0400 > > >> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > >> > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > > >> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > >> > > > >> > That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made. > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Will > > >> > > > >> > On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein > > >> wrote: > > >> > > Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project! > > >> > > > > >> > > m > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" > > >> > > >> > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" > > >> > > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM > > >> > > > > >> > > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > >> Wow..... > > >> > >> > > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >> > >>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > >> > >>> Johannes Thelen > > >> > >>> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03 > > >> > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > >> > >>> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit > > >> exhausted...) > > >> > >> > > >> > >> and we > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I > > >> think > > >> > >>> I > > >> > >>> have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited > > >> this > > >> > >> > > >> > >> project > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, > > >> but it > > >> > >> > > >> > >> was > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have > > >> good, > > >> > >>> interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news > > >> first: it > > >> > >> > > >> > >> seems > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. > > >> That > > >> > >>> company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out > > >> for it... > > >> > >>> Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place! > > >> > >>> Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as > > >> I > > >> > >> > > >> > >> excepted. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as > > >> > >>> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just > > >> quick > > >> > >>> look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is > > >> still > > >> > >> > > >> > >> fully > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost > > >> all > > >> > >> > > >> > >> stuff > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix > > >> displays, > > >> > >> > > >> > >> GRRR!). > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> **** > > >> > >>> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only > > >> > >>> option, > > >> > >>> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to > > >> make > > >> > >> > > >> > >> sleigh of > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered > > >> on > > >> > >> > > >> > >> stairs > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work! > > >> > >>> More coming later! Now I have to sleep! > > >> > >>> Oh, the pictures: > > >> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W- > > >> > >>> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks! > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> - Johannes ThelenFinland > > >> > >>> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > > >> > >>> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need > some help) > > >> > >>> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net > > >> > >>> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400 > > >> > >>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >> > >>> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson > > > > >> > > >> > >>> wrote: > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > >> > >>> > >> > > >> > >>> > >> > > >> > >>> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > >> > >>> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was > >>> indeed > > >> hydraulic! > > >> > >>> > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive > >> 2314 was > > >> hydraulic, > > >> > >>> > >> and on > > >> > >> > > >> > >> night > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, > > >> but the > > >> > >>> damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or > > >> actuators > > >> > >>> exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs > > >> and > > >> > >> > > >> > >> drives. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > >> > > >> > >>> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think > > we also had a > > >> oil > > >> > >>> > > spraying > > >> > >> > > >> > >> event > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington > > >> > >> > > >> > >> University, > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got > > >> all > > >> > >>> the > > >> > >>> packs unloaded. > > >> > >>> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected > > if the > > >> computer room > > >> > >>> > > is > > >> > >> > > >> > >> occupied, > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C > > >> system. > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of > 1311s, which are > > >> similar > > >> > >>> > to > > >> > >> > > >> > >> the > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech > > >> replaced > > >> > >> > > >> > >> the > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol > > >> from > > >> > >>> the > > >> > >>> chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil > > >> from > > >> > >>> pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads > > >> in > > >> > >> > > >> > >> those > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try that with > > >> anything > > >> > >> > > >> > >> much > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, > > >> you > > >> > >>> might > > >> > >>> give that technique a try. > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > paul > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Apr 12 16:12:25 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 17:12:25 -0400 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> <003901d0748c$0b906400$22b12c00$@xs4all.nl> <552ABC87.60901@dds.nl> Message-ID: <0729ADFF-C8F2-4558-A449-D808EEA447AB@comcast.net> > On Apr 12, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: >> well, not exactly. there is a X8 here in Arnhem still in existence. :-) but > > Oh! That's good to hear. > > I keep hoping that someone saved a copy of THE. There?s a listing in the Don Knuth archive at the Computer History Museum. It would be nice to have a papertape instead, but those don?t seem to exist any longer. paul From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 12 16:18:03 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 23:18:03 +0200 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> <003901d0748c$0b906400$22b12c00$@xs4all.nl> <552ABC87.60901@dds.nl> Message-ID: <773eed2fc9b880bd3d6da782a291ce1b@smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net> Or Pascal: Philips Akelig Snelle Calculator one of the first Dutch computers from the 50th. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Eric Smith" Verzonden: ?12-?4-?2015 22:10 Aan: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Onderwerp: Re: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: > well, not exactly. there is a X8 here in Arnhem still in existence. :-) but Oh! That's good to hear. I keep hoping that someone saved a copy of THE. From isking at uw.edu Sun Apr 12 17:19:36 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 15:19:36 -0700 Subject: DEC Professional 350 - video issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a Pro 380 - I'd really like to find an ethernet card for it, and maybe some additional memory?. On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I might have a spare board and maybe even a print set. I'll try to check > tomorrow. > > I plan on selling all of my DECMATE, PRO350 and PRO 380 systems and parts. > A list member inquired about it several months ago, but never got back to > me. Or maybe I dropped the ball... > > Paul > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 2:35 PM, John Ames > wrote: > > > Back in November I dropped in on a list member's moving giveaway and > > came away with some DEC stuff, among which was a DEC Professional 350 > > with keyboard and monitor. As the previous owner informed me, the > > video isn't working; there's no picture on the monitor, but there's > > visible sync lines, and the diagnostic lights on the back of the unit > > indicate an error with the bitmap graphics card. I'm pretty sure it's > > an issue with the card and not the slot, since the error moves with > > the card when I install it in one of the other slots, but I'm not sure > > what to look for on the card itself - nothing is socketed, so it's not > > chip creep, and the card connector looks to be in good shape. > > > > Does anybody have any advice for diagnosing and repairing this? I'd > > really like to get it working. Failing that, does anybody have a spare > > for the video card? (It's DEC part number 54-15138.) I've got a > > Rainbow I'd be willing to trade for a working one (base unit only - I > > don't have the facilities to test it, but according to the owner it > > was in working condition.) > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From isking at uw.edu Sun Apr 12 17:19:36 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 15:19:36 -0700 Subject: DEC Professional 350 - video issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a Pro 380 - I'd really like to find an ethernet card for it, and maybe some additional memory?. On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I might have a spare board and maybe even a print set. I'll try to check > tomorrow. > > I plan on selling all of my DECMATE, PRO350 and PRO 380 systems and parts. > A list member inquired about it several months ago, but never got back to > me. Or maybe I dropped the ball... > > Paul > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 2:35 PM, John Ames > wrote: > > > Back in November I dropped in on a list member's moving giveaway and > > came away with some DEC stuff, among which was a DEC Professional 350 > > with keyboard and monitor. As the previous owner informed me, the > > video isn't working; there's no picture on the monitor, but there's > > visible sync lines, and the diagnostic lights on the back of the unit > > indicate an error with the bitmap graphics card. I'm pretty sure it's > > an issue with the card and not the slot, since the error moves with > > the card when I install it in one of the other slots, but I'm not sure > > what to look for on the card itself - nothing is socketed, so it's not > > chip creep, and the card connector looks to be in good shape. > > > > Does anybody have any advice for diagnosing and repairing this? I'd > > really like to get it working. Failing that, does anybody have a spare > > for the video card? (It's DEC part number 54-15138.) I've got a > > Rainbow I'd be willing to trade for a working one (base unit only - I > > don't have the facilities to test it, but according to the owner it > > was in working condition.) > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 19:05:02 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 19:05:02 -0500 Subject: Looking for SMD drives (specific models) In-Reply-To: <552AC453.9000603@gmail.com> References: <552A2029.8040501@gmail.com> <552A97D3.4000500@gmail.com> <552AC453.9000603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <552B082E.2060505@gmail.com> On 04/12/2015 02:15 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 4/12/15 9:05 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 04/12/2015 02:35 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> I have a few other SMD drives (just picked 'em up today, in fact) but >>> they're newer (~825mb) and the Ridge disc utilities only support a small >>> subset of drives (they do not support providing custom geometries, because >>> that would be *too easy*.) >> >> Can you "under format" an SMD drive? i.e. if you have a drive with equal >> or greater cylinders and heads will it automagically work at a lower >> capacity that's supported by your formatter? >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> >> > > The thought had crossed my mind; the problem is that the large drives I > have have fewer cylinders than the ones in that list -- 700-something vs > 800+, so the drives format fine up until the last cylinder is reached... Rats :( Off-the-wall thought, but would it be possible to go poking around in the formatter program with a hex editor? The parameters for the drives that are supported may be in a format which you could locate and reverse-engineer, and then you could tweak one of the entries to match one of your drives. I know nothing about SMD though, so maybe it's much more complex than the kind of data that would normally be needed for a ST506/412-type drive. cheers Jules From jws at jwsss.com Sun Apr 12 20:48:59 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 18:48:59 -0700 Subject: Looking for SMD drives (specific models) In-Reply-To: <552B082E.2060505@gmail.com> References: <552A2029.8040501@gmail.com> <552A97D3.4000500@gmail.com> <552AC453.9000603@gmail.com> <552B082E.2060505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <552B208B.5030401@jwsss.com> On 4/12/2015 5:05 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: (actually Josh wrote this) > I have a few other SMD drives (just picked 'em up today, in fact) but > they're newer (~825mb) and the Ridge disc utilities only support a small > subset of drives (they do not support providing custom geometries, > because > that would be *too easy*.) The larger drives have more bits / track than the ones you have in the list. I suspect the 825mb and so forth may have too high a bit frequency for the ECC or CRC generation hardware in the controller. I don't recall the number of bits / track, but there were a couple of generations with about 20k / track, the 9766 was in that class. Then later there were drives which were twice that. The part we used to compute CRC for our drive at the time could not handle the frequency of the 40k tracks. And the parts for ECC were not mature to change to that technology, so we never supported the EMD (40k) drives. I have a CDC 160mb MMD which is probably compatible with the system you have. I believe the Ridge was out when we did our controllers. As to Jules's other mention, about the parameters, CDC recorded a well documented block of data on the first track with flaw map information. There are no drive parameters for SMD. We had a rom with a number of geometries, as well as some table with block capacities which were reported to the Reality OS for it to use the drive. Our interface was at a block count level, not a CHS layout level. The place to attack Ridge would be to look for the tables for the drives that Josh has in his list in the disk controller roms, and attempt to modify that table. That would assume one could modify that table, and there no protection on the rom such as a checksum that would mess up if you diddled the table. Thanks Jim From useddec at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 21:38:40 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 21:38:40 -0500 Subject: DEC Professional 350 - video issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ian, Any part numbers? Thanks, Paul On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > I have a Pro 380 - I'd really like to find an ethernet card for it, and > maybe some additional memory?. > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > I might have a spare board and maybe even a print set. I'll try to check > > tomorrow. > > > > I plan on selling all of my DECMATE, PRO350 and PRO 380 systems and > parts. > > A list member inquired about it several months ago, but never got back to > > me. Or maybe I dropped the ball... > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 2:35 PM, John Ames > > wrote: > > > > > Back in November I dropped in on a list member's moving giveaway and > > > came away with some DEC stuff, among which was a DEC Professional 350 > > > with keyboard and monitor. As the previous owner informed me, the > > > video isn't working; there's no picture on the monitor, but there's > > > visible sync lines, and the diagnostic lights on the back of the unit > > > indicate an error with the bitmap graphics card. I'm pretty sure it's > > > an issue with the card and not the slot, since the error moves with > > > the card when I install it in one of the other slots, but I'm not sure > > > what to look for on the card itself - nothing is socketed, so it's not > > > chip creep, and the card connector looks to be in good shape. > > > > > > Does anybody have any advice for diagnosing and repairing this? I'd > > > really like to get it working. Failing that, does anybody have a spare > > > for the video card? (It's DEC part number 54-15138.) I've got a > > > Rainbow I'd be willing to trade for a working one (base unit only - I > > > don't have the facilities to test it, but according to the owner it > > > was in working condition.) > > > > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From isking at uw.edu Sun Apr 12 23:22:12 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 21:22:12 -0700 Subject: DEC Professional 350 - video issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The ethernet adapter is a CTI card (not Unibus or Qbus) with an identifying number of 000042 on its plastic handle. It's also called a DECNA card, but since I don't have one I don't know if that's written on it somewhere (i.e. the solder mask). Thanks -- Ian On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 7:38 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Ian, > > Any part numbers? > > > Thanks, Paul > > On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > > > I have a Pro 380 - I'd really like to find an ethernet card for it, and > > maybe some additional memory?. > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Paul Anderson > wrote: > > > > > I might have a spare board and maybe even a print set. I'll try to > check > > > tomorrow. > > > > > > I plan on selling all of my DECMATE, PRO350 and PRO 380 systems and > > parts. > > > A list member inquired about it several months ago, but never got back > to > > > me. Or maybe I dropped the ball... > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 2:35 PM, John Ames > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Back in November I dropped in on a list member's moving giveaway and > > > > came away with some DEC stuff, among which was a DEC Professional 350 > > > > with keyboard and monitor. As the previous owner informed me, the > > > > video isn't working; there's no picture on the monitor, but there's > > > > visible sync lines, and the diagnostic lights on the back of the unit > > > > indicate an error with the bitmap graphics card. I'm pretty sure it's > > > > an issue with the card and not the slot, since the error moves with > > > > the card when I install it in one of the other slots, but I'm not > sure > > > > what to look for on the card itself - nothing is socketed, so it's > not > > > > chip creep, and the card connector looks to be in good shape. > > > > > > > > Does anybody have any advice for diagnosing and repairing this? I'd > > > > really like to get it working. Failing that, does anybody have a > spare > > > > for the video card? (It's DEC part number 54-15138.) I've got a > > > > Rainbow I'd be willing to trade for a working one (base unit only - I > > > > don't have the facilities to test it, but according to the owner it > > > > was in working condition.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > > The Information School > > > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > > > University of Washington > > > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From useddec at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 23:22:46 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 23:22:46 -0500 Subject: More Dilog and Emulex Message-ID: DILOG DQ130 DQ686 Emulex CS09 SC01 SC03 SU21 hex TU11 TU121 TU131 UD33 hex QD01 QD21 QD241 QT131 MDB -DWO 40040270 Simpact/ Industrial Networking Inc TBM-15 token bus modem Anyone use MTI boards? I have several here. Thanks, Paul From useddec at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 23:24:14 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 23:24:14 -0500 Subject: DEC Professional 350 - video issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That will help. Cheers, Paul On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > The ethernet adapter is a CTI card (not Unibus or Qbus) with an identifying > number of 000042 on its plastic handle. It's also called a DECNA card, but > since I don't have one I don't know if that's written on it somewhere (i.e. > the solder mask). Thanks -- Ian > > On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 7:38 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > Hi Ian, > > > > Any part numbers? > > > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > > > > > I have a Pro 380 - I'd really like to find an ethernet card for it, and > > > maybe some additional memory?. > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Paul Anderson > > wrote: > > > > > > > I might have a spare board and maybe even a print set. I'll try to > > check > > > > tomorrow. > > > > > > > > I plan on selling all of my DECMATE, PRO350 and PRO 380 systems and > > > parts. > > > > A list member inquired about it several months ago, but never got > back > > to > > > > me. Or maybe I dropped the ball... > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 2:35 PM, John Ames > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Back in November I dropped in on a list member's moving giveaway > and > > > > > came away with some DEC stuff, among which was a DEC Professional > 350 > > > > > with keyboard and monitor. As the previous owner informed me, the > > > > > video isn't working; there's no picture on the monitor, but there's > > > > > visible sync lines, and the diagnostic lights on the back of the > unit > > > > > indicate an error with the bitmap graphics card. I'm pretty sure > it's > > > > > an issue with the card and not the slot, since the error moves with > > > > > the card when I install it in one of the other slots, but I'm not > > sure > > > > > what to look for on the card itself - nothing is socketed, so it's > > not > > > > > chip creep, and the card connector looks to be in good shape. > > > > > > > > > > Does anybody have any advice for diagnosing and repairing this? I'd > > > > > really like to get it working. Failing that, does anybody have a > > spare > > > > > for the video card? (It's DEC part number 54-15138.) I've got a > > > > > Rainbow I'd be willing to trade for a working one (base unit only > - I > > > > > don't have the facilities to test it, but according to the owner it > > > > > was in working condition.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > > > The Information School > > > > > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > > > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > > > > > University of Washington > > > > > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > > > > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Apr 12 16:52:17 2015 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 23:52:17 +0200 Subject: Available: VAX-11/750, DEC7000, DEC5500 and more! In-Reply-To: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> References: <552590D3.7090305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <552AE911.8060805@update.uu.se> Hi A small update. It looks like we have bought some time for these systems, at least a few weeks. All Norsk Data items and Teleray terminal will be picked up by someone fairly local. The test gear that some of you pointed out has been picked up. It is an RP06 alignment tool. As for the rest, we are working on it :) I think I have replied to all that wrote directly to me. If you feel that I've missed your mail, I'm sorry, please send me a reminder. Kind Regards, Pontus. On 04/08/2015 10:34 PM, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > A computer club in northern Sweden (Lule?) is clearing out some > storage rooms. I'm not the owner and not directly responsible for this > (although I'm involved). Shipping will _not_ be possible, but things > that people have interest in can be stored for "a while". > > Here is a list of things heading for the scrapper: > > Unibus- and BI-bus boards (I'm will try to save these) > 1/2"-tapes > 2x DEC7000 > RX01-floppies > DEC5500 (labled ellen.lnt.dec.com) > Vax 4000/300 > A few RA90 > MV3900+RA82+RL02 > Sun-mice and Sun-SCSI-cables (lots) > Annex3 Terminal Server > VAXserver 3100 > VAXstation 3100 > Vax 4000/90 > 2x VAXstation 3100/76 > Vax 4000/60 > Infoserver 100 > Sun CD-drive > Mikrovax 3800 > CI-cable > 2x RF215 (disk towers) > Mikrovax? 640QR? > Vax 4000/500 > HSC90 > TU81+RA82 > 11/750 no PSU > SDI cables > 2 st Hawk-drives (ND511). > Boards for Nord-100. > Teleray terminal > 2 Nord-10 CPU-boxes? > > There is also a VAX 8354 with RA72 that I'm going try and save myself, > but I can't fit the cabinet in my garage. So if anyone seriously wants > this, I'll let it go. > There is also two RP07 that might get a new home locally, but it's not > decided yet. > > The list might grow or shrink depending on what people claim or not. > > Here are some images: > http://brain.brokenbrain.se/skrot_dh1/ > > Regards, > Pontus. From krfkeith at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 03:40:02 2015 From: krfkeith at gmail.com (Kevin Keith) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 03:40:02 -0500 Subject: Does anyone here have any information/docs on the Tahoe aka Power 6/32 aka Harris HCX-7/9? Message-ID: I've checked Bitsavers, but no dice. There didn't appear to be a section for Computer Consoles Inc, the original manufacturer, and there's nothing in either the Harris or the ICL sections (both of which sold rebadged machines). Anyone information you guys might have on this machine would be much appreciated. I'm especially looking for a programming guide, or anything which might provide information on the ISA. I've heard of it being describing as somewhat VAXoid, but I haven't ever seen any reliable information as to what its instruction set actually looked like. The machine is of historical interest for being the first architecture, IIRC, that BSD4.3 was supported on. Otherwise, it seems to be rather obscure. I've searched everywhere, and no one seems to have much on it. But I figured if anyone did, it would be you guys. Thanks for reading! From jon at jonworld.com Mon Apr 13 03:42:36 2015 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 10:42:36 +0200 Subject: Does anyone here have any information/docs on the Tahoe aka Power 6/32 aka Harris HCX-7/9? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Kevin Keith wrote: > set actually looked like. The machine is of historical interest for > being the first architecture, IIRC, that BSD4.3 was supported on. > Otherwise, it seems to be rather obscure. I've searched everywhere, The Tahoe is unobtanium. I don't think a picture of one exists. I don't think anyone has ever seen one. From krfkeith at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 05:23:30 2015 From: krfkeith at gmail.com (Kevin Keith) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 05:23:30 -0500 Subject: Does anyone here have any information/docs on the Tahoe aka Power 6/32 aka Harris HCX-7/9? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 April 2015 at 03:42, Jonathan Katz wrote: > The Tahoe is unobtanium. I don't think a picture of one exists. I > don't think anyone has ever seen one. That's unfortunate :( I've tried to trawl through old usenet posts, but there hasn't been a whole lot in the way of detailed information on it. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 13 10:56:45 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 08:56:45 -0700 Subject: Does anyone here have any information/docs on the Tahoe aka Power 6/32 aka Harris HCX-7/9? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <552BE73D.4050903@bitsavers.org> On 4/13/15 1:42 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Kevin Keith wrote: >> set actually looked like. The machine is of historical interest for >> being the first architecture, IIRC, that BSD4.3 was supported on. >> Otherwise, it seems to be rather obscure. I've searched everywhere, > > > The Tahoe is unobtanium. I don't think a picture of one exists. I > don't think anyone has ever seen one. > > University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee had one badged from Sperry. There is a fairly long article in the Dec 8, 1986 Computerworld about it https://books.google.com/books?id=kRzuuIIkML8C From fulivi at tiscali.it Mon Apr 13 11:29:18 2015 From: fulivi at tiscali.it (F.Ulivi) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 18:29:18 +0200 Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <552BEEDE.5010405@tiscali.it> Well, that's great! If you manage to dump the PIO I'm surely interested. I just uploaded my improved MDS-II emulator to the MAME/MESS project. In this version of the emulator the PIO runs a firmware that I wrote a few days ago (and that I assembled on the emulated MDS-II with the original ASM-48, of course!). At the moment my version of PIO just supports the printer output. -- F.Ulivi From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 13 12:20:14 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 17:20:14 +0000 Subject: Looking for SMD drives (specific models) In-Reply-To: <552A2029.8040501@gmail.com> References: <552A2029.8040501@gmail.com> Message-ID: > So I had the Ridge 32 running again (when I went to debug the -12V > supply it had started working again, so I'll take that for now, I > suppose). After running for an hour the SMD drive (a Fujitsu 2312) in > it failed. At power up, the drive spins up and when it attempts to load > the heads, there's a loud *clunk* and the drive then quickly spins > down. (If anyone has any bright ideas, let me know...) There is a Fujitsu 2312 service manual on bitsavers. According to that, once the spindle is up to speed the heads should move in at high speed until the outer guard band is detected, then slow down and end up locking on cylinder 0. Sounds (!) as though your drive is running the heads at high speed into the inner end stop, realising something is wrong, and shutting down. Apparently there are status LEDs on the drive, what do they show? Since the drive doesn't make head-crash noises (does it?) it's entirely possible the HDA is fine and the fault is on one of the PCBs. Fujitsu used a number of ASICs in these drives, but it appers there are still things you can check and repair. I would start with the power amplifier that drives the positioner (voice coil), check the transistors there first. Then see what the input to that stage is doing when it attempts to load the heads (does it seem to be trying to ram them into the end stop?) and work back from there. -tony From supervinx at libero.it Mon Apr 13 12:32:36 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 19:32:36 +0200 Subject: IBM 5120 (5110-3) Message-ID: <8y2jpi6mwt7i1wy327oiw1cp.1428946335615@email.android.com> Hi! All the work is done! The printer's gone, but the unit is fully functional. I built a bus terminator and today I found a disk controller able to write FM/SD (the first disk track is always formatted that way) togethet my repaired Siemens FDD200P. I had two disk images (utils and diags) from the Stuttgart Museum, but the utils one appears to be in German language. Do you have an english image of the util disk or other 5120 related software? Thanks! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 13 14:37:15 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 15:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Does anyone here have any information/docs on the Tahoe aka Power 6/32 aka Harris HCX-7/9? Message-ID: <20150413193715.DB96E18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > a fairly long article in the Dec 8, 1986 Computerworld Sorry, which page? I looked in that issue for the article using the 'Search' function, but couldn't find it? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 13 14:45:19 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 15:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: This may be the most impressive demo I've ever seen. Message-ID: <20150413194519.F356818C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Liam Proven Re: your subject: line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos :-) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 13 15:05:37 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 16:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap Message-ID: <20150413200537.091F218C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Roe Peterson > There is a product, can't remember the name. It's basically dental > floss for dentures, and comes in individual strings about 3 inches long > with a cleaning tip at one end. I found something that sounds like this; it's called "Superfloss" (OralB product); they are about 10" long, with a 6" section in the middle that looks like a miniature pipe cleaner. Speaking of pipe cleaners, I also tried using them. They were a bit too big to get through the space, but there's something called "Chenille Stems" (Fibre Craft product), available in craft stores, which is like a light gauge pipe cleaner, but with longer 'pile'. It won't go through as it, but if you trim the pile, it will go through most slots (there is component variation, and for some blocks, the gap between the block and the PCB is much smaller). > From: Tothwolf > Could you use an aquarium pump and a long airstone / bubbler to help > clean the boards using aeration? I'm not sure that would get off the impacted dirt. (At least, more so than a long soak, and then water jet.) > Or, maybe get in there with a Waterpik? I did try and find a small pressure washer type thing, but the smallest I could find was ... still pretty big. Maybe a Waterpik would be more the backplane's size.. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 13 15:28:30 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 13:28:30 -0700 Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: <20150413200537.091F218C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150413200537.091F218C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <552C26EE.8030706@sydex.com> On 04/13/2015 01:05 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I did try and find a small pressure washer type thing, but the smallest I > could find was ... still pretty big. Maybe a Waterpik would be more the > backplane's size.. How about a simple airbrush gun filled with your choice of liquids? Cheap and simple. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 13 15:54:22 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 13:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair Turnkey and some DEC stuff cheap In-Reply-To: <20150413200537.091F218C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150413200537.091F218C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Apr 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Speaking of pipe cleaners, I also tried using them. They were a bit too big > to get through the space, but there's something called "Chenille Stems" > (Fibre Craft product), available in craft stores, which is like a light gauge > pipe cleaner, but with longer 'pile'. It won't go through as it, but if you > trim the pile, it will go through most slots (there is component variation, > and for some blocks, the gap between the block and the PCB is much smaller). Dental Oral-B "Interdental brush", GUM "Proxa-Brush" They come in several sizes, and as bits for a holder, or with a small plastic handle and cap as "Trav-ler" From krfkeith at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:05:50 2015 From: krfkeith at gmail.com (Kevin Keith) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 16:05:50 -0500 Subject: Does anyone here have any information/docs on the Tahoe aka Power 6/32 aka Harris HCX-7/9? In-Reply-To: <20150413193715.DB96E18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150413193715.DB96E18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 13 April 2015 at 14:37, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Sorry, which page? I looked in that issue for the article using the 'Search' > function, but couldn't find it? > > Noel The article starts on page 30, and continues on page 33. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 13 16:06:38 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 14:06:38 -0700 Subject: Does anyone here have any information/docs on the Tahoe aka Power 6/32 aka Harris HCX-7/9? In-Reply-To: <20150413193715.DB96E18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150413193715.DB96E18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <552C2FDE.7040604@bitsavers.org> On 4/13/15 12:37 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > a fairly long article in the Dec 8, 1986 Computerworld > > Sorry, which page? 29 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 13 17:59:11 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 23:59:11 +0100 Subject: [DECtec] DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <5199956.ZkF4TPeurX@x220> References: <5199956.ZkF4TPeurX@x220> Message-ID: <002101d0763d$769cbb10$63d63130$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: DECtec [mailto:dectec-bounces at dectec.info] On Behalf Of Mark > Wickens > Sent: 13 April 2015 22:15 > To: DEC discussion list.; hecnet at update.uu.se; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: [DECtec] DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures > > I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: > http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image > > Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many thanks to the > presenters (local and remote) and everyone who attended. > > Regards, Mark. > > p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into the DEC Legacy > site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. > > > -- Thank you Mark for continuing to organise this event. I always look forward to it and can't wait for the next one. Regards Rob From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Apr 14 00:06:22 2015 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (Steven Stengel) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 22:06:22 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina Message-ID: <1C2BDE26-E5FC-4672-9A3D-F7602C3FF2D4@yahoo.com> I'm not connected with this person or equipment, just passing-on the info. Contact travis.uzzell1969 at gmail.com for more info. See these pictures - it's a little "rough" http://oldcomputers.net/temp/IMG_5164.JPG http://oldcomputers.net/temp/IMG_5165.JPG http://oldcomputers.net/temp/IMG_5167.JPG http://oldcomputers.net/temp/IMG_5168.JPG http://oldcomputers.net/temp/IMG_5169.JPG http://oldcomputers.net/temp/IMG_5170.JPG http://oldcomputers.net/temp/IMG_5171.JPG From msw at hecnet.eu Mon Apr 13 16:15:08 2015 From: msw at hecnet.eu (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 22:15:08 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures Message-ID: <5199956.ZkF4TPeurX@x220> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many thanks to the presenters (local and remote) and everyone who attended. Regards, Mark. p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into the DEC Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. From kirkbdavis at hush.com Tue Apr 14 00:22:49 2015 From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (kirkbdavis at hush.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 22:22:49 -0700 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <5199956.ZkF4TPeurX@x220> Message-ID: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" wrote: > >I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: >http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image > >Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many >thanks to the >presenters (local and remote) and everyone who attended. > >Regards, Mark. > >p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into >the DEC >Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Apr 14 00:37:40 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 06:37:40 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> References: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <552CA7A4.9020104@wickensonline.co.uk> It's a front panel with a custom SIMH backend, in case you hadn't tied the pictures together. You could probably hang it on the wall in a picture frame and still have it useable :D Regards, Mark On 14/04/15 06:22, kirkbdavis at hush.com wrote: > Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. > > On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" wrote: >> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: >> http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image >> >> Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many >> thanks to the >> presenters (local and remote) and everyone who attended. >> >> Regards, Mark. >> >> p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into >> the DEC >> Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 14 03:11:39 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 09:11:39 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> References: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <552CCBBB.6060204@btinternet.com> It a pity its not somewhere more accessible. I have plenty of DEC systems that run. However a four hour drive would not do them or me any good. Rod Smallwood Digital Equipment Corporation (1973-1985) On 14/04/2015 06:22, kirkbdavis at hush.com wrote: > Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. > > On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" wrote: >> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: >> http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image >> >> Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many >> thanks to the >> presenters (local and remote) and everyone who attended. >> >> Regards, Mark. >> >> p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into >> the DEC >> Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 03:28:48 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 09:28:48 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <552CCBBB.6060204@btinternet.com> References: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> <552CCBBB.6060204@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <004d01d0768d$08552b10$18ff8130$@gmail.com> Rod, If you just want to visit it is not far from Windermere railway station. "Accessible" depends on your definition of accessible. To me Central London is inaccessible, train fairs are expensive, parking is non-existant. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 14 April 2015 09:12 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures > > It a pity its not somewhere more accessible. > I have plenty of DEC systems that run. > However a four hour drive would not do them or me any good. > > Rod Smallwood > Digital Equipment Corporation (1973-1985) > > > On 14/04/2015 06:22, kirkbdavis at hush.com wrote: > > Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. > > > > On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" wrote: > >> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: > >> http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image > >> > >> Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many > >> thanks to the presenters (local and remote) and everyone who > >> attended. > >> > >> Regards, Mark. > >> > >> p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into the > >> DEC Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Apr 14 03:30:12 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:30:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM 5120 (5110-3) In-Reply-To: <8y2jpi6mwt7i1wy327oiw1cp.1428946335615@email.android.com> References: <8y2jpi6mwt7i1wy327oiw1cp.1428946335615@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Apr 2015, supervinx wrote: > Hi! All the work is done! The printer's gone, but the unit is fully > functional. I built a bus terminator and today I found a disk controller > able to write FM/SD (the first disk track is always formatted that way) > togethet my repaired Siemens FDD200P. I had two disk images (utils and > diags) from the Stuttgart Museum, but the utils one appears to be in > German language. Do you have an english image of the util disk or other > 5120 related software? Thanks! I will have a look. It's quite possible that I have the English version somewhere. Christian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 14 03:55:28 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 09:55:28 +0100 Subject: Meaning of RD54 Beeps Message-ID: <005401d07690$c1af8c60$450ea520$@ntlworld.com> I managed to get an RD54 going again (a different one to the one I was having trouble with recently). However, if I try to back it up, the backup is slow, I get quite a few read errors, and it often makes the beeping sound that it makes when you first power it on. Clearly the disk is not that well, but I wonder if anyone knows what exactly the beep means? Is it a signal that it has reached the correct rotational speed, or that it has re-calibrated the track position, or something else? Regards Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 14 03:57:46 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 09:57:46 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <004d01d0768d$08552b10$18ff8130$@gmail.com> References: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> <552CCBBB.6060204@btinternet.com> <004d01d0768d$08552b10$18ff8130$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <552CD68A.6020207@btinternet.com> Hi In some ways the train is worse. One or two changes, having to lug a suitcase and the venue might be near the station but the hotel is likely not. As a place to visit, out of season Lake District can be very nice (I'm originally from Liverpool) as a show venue, well there are better. London is a different matter. Station two miles down the road then under an hour to Paddington. On 14/04/2015 09:28, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Rod, > If you just want to visit it is not far from Windermere railway station. "Accessible" depends on your definition of accessible. To me Central London is inaccessible, train fairs are expensive, parking is non-existant. > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >> Smallwood >> Sent: 14 April 2015 09:12 >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- >> Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures >> >> It a pity its not somewhere more accessible. >> I have plenty of DEC systems that run. >> However a four hour drive would not do them or me any good. >> >> Rod Smallwood >> Digital Equipment Corporation (1973-1985) >> >> >> On 14/04/2015 06:22, kirkbdavis at hush.com wrote: >>> Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. >>> >>> On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" wrote: >>>> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: >>>> http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image >>>> >>>> Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many >>>> thanks to the presenters (local and remote) and everyone who >>>> attended. >>>> >>>> Regards, Mark. >>>> >>>> p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into the >>>> DEC Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Apr 14 04:01:19 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:01:19 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <552CCBBB.6060204@btinternet.com> References: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> <552CCBBB.6060204@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <552CD75F.9030404@wickensonline.co.uk> Rod Where would you consider accessible in terms of major cities? This question comes up every year and I'm open to suggestions, but it would probably end up with me having a three hour drive instead. The problem I'll have is the 'unknowns' of a new venue - we still have a few of them here every year even though the event has run several times now and it's a lot easier to get things sorted close to home. This year I've have folks come from South West England, Wales, Kent and even Holland - and that included a substantial amount of kit. As far as I know it's all survived (apart from a VT320 - but that died before it left the building). Having said that I appreciate there is a not insubstantial expense in travel and accommodation that would be mitigated if the event were within a reasonable distance. Regards, Mark On 14/04/15 09:11, Rod Smallwood wrote: > It a pity its not somewhere more accessible. > I have plenty of DEC systems that run. > However a four hour drive would not do them or me any good. > > Rod Smallwood > Digital Equipment Corporation (1973-1985) > > > On 14/04/2015 06:22, kirkbdavis at hush.com wrote: >> Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. >> >> On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" wrote: >>> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: >>> http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image >>> >>> Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many >>> thanks to the >>> presenters (local and remote) and everyone who attended. >>> >>> Regards, Mark. >>> >>> p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into >>> the DEC >>> Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. > From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com Tue Apr 14 04:07:09 2015 From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 19:07:09 +1000 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: <1C2BDE26-E5FC-4672-9A3D-F7602C3FF2D4@yahoo.com> References: <1C2BDE26-E5FC-4672-9A3D-F7602C3FF2D4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I hope someone is able to rescue this system, if you're curious a brief overview is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_B1700 A really unusual and interesting system, particularly the loadable microcode for new instruction sets. This is quite definitely a R at R3 L@@K super-rare unusual system (to overwork an eBay meme). From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 14 04:31:28 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:31:28 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <552CD75F.9030404@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> <552CCBBB.6060204@btinternet.com> <552CD75F.9030404@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <552CDE70.3030101@btinternet.com> Hi Mark I think we would all like to live near the Lake District and an excuse to visit is always welcome. Venue is easy. Slap in the middle = Birmingham. Years ago DEC bought in market surveys as to the best place for shows. All had the same answer. Birmingham London was too expensive and everywhere else remote or poor access. What is the point of me having 20+ working DEC systems if I can't show them unless I become a long distance lorry driver? Good luck for next year. At least I can look at the pictures Rod On 14/04/2015 10:01, Mark Wickens wrote: > Rod > > Where would you consider accessible in terms of major cities? This > question comes up every year and I'm open to suggestions, but it would > probably end up with me having a three hour drive instead. The problem > I'll have is the 'unknowns' of a new venue - we still have a few of > them here every year even though the event has run several times now > and it's a lot easier to get things sorted close to home. > > This year I've have folks come from South West England, Wales, Kent > and even Holland - and that included a substantial amount of kit. As > far as I know it's all survived (apart from a VT320 - but that died > before it left the building). > > Having said that I appreciate there is a not insubstantial expense in > travel and accommodation that would be mitigated if the event were > within a reasonable distance. > > Regards, Mark > > On 14/04/15 09:11, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> It a pity its not somewhere more accessible. >> I have plenty of DEC systems that run. >> However a four hour drive would not do them or me any good. >> >> Rod Smallwood >> Digital Equipment Corporation (1973-1985) >> >> >> On 14/04/2015 06:22, kirkbdavis at hush.com wrote: >>> Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. >>> >>> On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" wrote: >>>> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: >>>> http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image >>>> >>>> Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many >>>> thanks to the >>>> presenters (local and remote) and everyone who attended. >>>> >>>> Regards, Mark. >>>> >>>> p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into >>>> the DEC >>>> Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. >> > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 05:08:55 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 11:08:55 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <552CDE70.3030101@btinternet.com> References: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> <552CCBBB.6060204@btinternet.com> <552CD75F.9030404@wickensonline.co.uk> <552CDE70.3030101@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <002301d0769b$0544ae60$0fce0b20$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 14 April 2015 10:31 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures > > Hi Mark > I think we would all like to live near the Lake District and an excuse to > visit is always welcome. > Venue is easy. Slap in the middle = Birmingham. > > Years ago DEC bought in market surveys as to the best place for shows. > All had the same answer. Birmingham > London was too expensive and everywhere else remote or poor access. Ah typical, Manchester "Remote".... Has he tried getting into central Birmingham recently, with all the road works. Its quicker by Canal Boat:-( Its also getting expensive to find venues in Birmingham, as it is about as central as you can get in the UK. Decent accommodation (it was a two day event) can also be challenging. > > What is the point of me having 20+ working DEC systems if I can't show them > unless I become a long distance lorry driver? > Organize your own event! I wonder if the TNMOC of computing would let us run an event there? But of course they don't have much space either and they are, I believe still not really on speaking terms with Bletchley... > Good luck for next year. > At least I can look at the pictures > > Rod > > > > On 14/04/2015 10:01, Mark Wickens wrote: > > Rod > > > > Where would you consider accessible in terms of major cities? This > > question comes up every year and I'm open to suggestions, but it would > > probably end up with me having a three hour drive instead. The problem > > I'll have is the 'unknowns' of a new venue - we still have a few of > > them here every year even though the event has run several times now > > and it's a lot easier to get things sorted close to home. > > > > This year I've have folks come from South West England, Wales, Kent > > and even Holland - and that included a substantial amount of kit. As > > far as I know it's all survived (apart from a VT320 - but that died > > before it left the building). > > > > Having said that I appreciate there is a not insubstantial expense in > > travel and accommodation that would be mitigated if the event were > > within a reasonable distance. > > > > Regards, Mark > > > > On 14/04/15 09:11, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> It a pity its not somewhere more accessible. > >> I have plenty of DEC systems that run. > >> However a four hour drive would not do them or me any good. > >> > >> Rod Smallwood > >> Digital Equipment Corporation (1973-1985) > >> > >> > >> On 14/04/2015 06:22, kirkbdavis at hush.com wrote: > >>> Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. > >>> > >>> On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" > wrote: > >>>> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: > >>>> http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image > >>>> > >>>> Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many > >>>> thanks to the presenters (local and remote) and everyone who > >>>> attended. > >>>> > >>>> Regards, Mark. > >>>> > >>>> p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into > >>>> the DEC Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. > >> > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Apr 14 05:52:10 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 12:52:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM 5120 (5110-3) In-Reply-To: References: <8y2jpi6mwt7i1wy327oiw1cp.1428946335615@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2015, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 13 Apr 2015, supervinx wrote: >> Hi! All the work is done! The printer's gone, but the unit is fully >> functional. I built a bus terminator and today I found a disk controller >> able to write FM/SD (the first disk track is always formatted that way) >> togethet my repaired Siemens FDD200P. I had two disk images (utils and >> diags) from the Stuttgart Museum, but the utils one appears to be in German >> language. Do you have an english image of the util disk or other 5120 >> related software? Thanks! > > I will have a look. It's quite possible that I have the English version > somewhere. I've added some more disk images to our FTP server in /pub/cm/ibm/ibm5110/disks You're looking for "csf_en.imd" Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 14 06:55:18 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 12:55:18 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <002301d0769b$0544ae60$0fce0b20$@gmail.com> References: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> <552CCBBB.6060204@btinternet.com> <552CD75F.9030404@wickensonline.co.uk> <552CDE70.3030101@btinternet.com> <002301d0769b$0544ae60$0fce0b20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <552D0026.9060007@btinternet.com> Hi yes all good points. It wasn't DEC who considered places remote it was their customers. I have no axe to grind I'm a born and bred Liverpool Scouser and would defend the Northwest if needed. DEC did have a large office in Manchester and think an offshoot in Leeds. The question was simple " Where do I put a show to get the maximum of attendees?" You already know the answer. It cost DEC a few grand to find that one out. Bletchley Park. A shame. A house divided against itself or an agressive take over. Is the war over yet? Of course there is another way to look at it. Make it difficult to get to and only the really keen ones will go. Not only a retrospective show but introspective one as well. Was there anybody there who actually worked for DEC or am I the last of the many? That said.. If there is another one (show that is) and I'm fit to travel I may well come up. Rod On 14/04/2015 11:08, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod >> Smallwood >> Sent: 14 April 2015 10:31 >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- >> Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures >> >> Hi Mark >> I think we would all like to live near the Lake District and an excuse to >> visit is always welcome. >> Venue is easy. Slap in the middle = Birmingham. >> >> Years ago DEC bought in market surveys as to the best place for shows. >> All had the same answer. Birmingham >> London was too expensive and everywhere else remote or poor access. > Ah typical, Manchester "Remote".... Has he tried getting into central Birmingham recently, with all the road works. Its quicker by Canal Boat:-( > > Its also getting expensive to find venues in Birmingham, as it is about as central as you can get in the UK. Decent accommodation (it was a two day event) can also be challenging. > >> What is the point of me having 20+ working DEC systems if I can't show them >> unless I become a long distance lorry driver? >> > Organize your own event! I wonder if the TNMOC of computing would let us run an event there? But of course they don't have much space either and they are, I believe still not really on speaking terms with Bletchley... > >> Good luck for next year. >> At least I can look at the pictures >> >> Rod >> >> >> >> On 14/04/2015 10:01, Mark Wickens wrote: >>> Rod >>> >>> Where would you consider accessible in terms of major cities? This >>> question comes up every year and I'm open to suggestions, but it would >>> probably end up with me having a three hour drive instead. The problem >>> I'll have is the 'unknowns' of a new venue - we still have a few of >>> them here every year even though the event has run several times now >>> and it's a lot easier to get things sorted close to home. >>> >>> This year I've have folks come from South West England, Wales, Kent >>> and even Holland - and that included a substantial amount of kit. As >>> far as I know it's all survived (apart from a VT320 - but that died >>> before it left the building). >>> >>> Having said that I appreciate there is a not insubstantial expense in >>> travel and accommodation that would be mitigated if the event were >>> within a reasonable distance. >>> >>> Regards, Mark >>> >>> On 14/04/15 09:11, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>> It a pity its not somewhere more accessible. >>>> I have plenty of DEC systems that run. >>>> However a four hour drive would not do them or me any good. >>>> >>>> Rod Smallwood >>>> Digital Equipment Corporation (1973-1985) >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14/04/2015 06:22, kirkbdavis at hush.com wrote: >>>>> Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. >>>>> >>>>> On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" >> wrote: >>>>>> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: >>>>>> http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image >>>>>> >>>>>> Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many >>>>>> thanks to the presenters (local and remote) and everyone who >>>>>> attended. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, Mark. >>>>>> >>>>>> p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into >>>>>> the DEC Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. > From supervinx at libero.it Tue Apr 14 07:43:37 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 14:43:37 +0200 Subject: IBM 5120 (5110-3) In-Reply-To: References: <8y2jpi6mwt7i1wy327oiw1cp.1428946335615@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1429015417.2410.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Thanks! Can you tell me the differences among - VERW.TD0 and verw2.td0 - DIAG.TD0, diag2.td0, diagn.td0, diag_5120.imd Regards! From supervinx at libero.it Tue Apr 14 07:58:14 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 14:58:14 +0200 Subject: IBM 5120 (5110-3) In-Reply-To: <1429015417.2410.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <8y2jpi6mwt7i1wy327oiw1cp.1428946335615@email.android.com> <1429015417.2410.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: <1429016294.2430.0.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno mar, 14/04/2015 alle 14.43 +0200, supervinx ha scritto: > Thanks! > Can you tell me the differences among > - VERW.TD0 and verw2.td0 > - DIAG.TD0, diag2.td0, diagn.td0, diag_5120.imd > > Regards! > Understood looking at .IMD file headers :) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 14 08:05:01 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 09:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC manuals free to good home Message-ID: <20150414130501.622EE18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi all, as part of a recent purchase of a group of DEC manuals, I have some duplicates, which are going free to a good home. (I'd prefer it if they went to people who didn't have any copies of the manual in question, but I'm not hard and fast on that.) They are: EB-26078-41 Microcomputer Products Handbook (1985) EB-20912-18 Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1982) EB-28251-20 Terminals and Communications Handbook (1980) Email me if you want one. (I will, of course, need your address! :-) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 14 08:50:38 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 09:50:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC manuals free to good home Message-ID: <20150414135038.F08BE18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I have some duplicates, which are going free to a good home. These have been claimed. Noel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 09:23:11 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 15:23:11 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <552D0026.9060007@btinternet.com> References: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> <552CCBBB.6060204@btinternet.com> <552CD75F.9030404@wickensonline.co.uk> <552CDE70.3030101@btinternet.com> <002301d0769b$0544ae60$0fce0b20$@gmail.com> <552D0026.9060007@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <020501d076be$89751580$9c5f4080$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 14 April 2015 12:55 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures > > Hi yes all good points. > > It wasn't DEC who considered places remote it was their customers. > I have no axe to grind I'm a born and bred Liverpool Scouser and would > defend the Northwest if needed. > > DEC did have a large office in Manchester and think an offshoot in Leeds. In later times the Manchester Office was closed and work moved to Birchwood Science Park, Warrington. The Birmingham office was also closed and space rented in a Regus building "as needed" > > The question was simple " Where do I put a show to get the maximum of > attendees?" > You already know the answer. It cost DEC a few grand to find that one out. Perhaps we don't want the maximum number of attendees. Putting on a large show needs a large outlay, (I know I help put on the Northern Amateur Radio Societies show at the Norbreck Castle Hotel, www.narsa.org.uk) We keep around ?8,000 just in case we have a complete flop... > > Bletchley Park. A shame. A house divided against itself or an agressive take > over. Is the war over yet? I think the Bletchley trust see it as their ball and no one else can come and play so many of the interesting attractions have been forcibly evicted including:- The Churchill Papers http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2288931/Churchill-exhibition-Bletchley-Park-scrapped-museum-bosses-claim-wartime-prime-minister-synonymous-code-breakers-work.html Milton Keynes Model Railway Society http://www.mkmrs.org.uk/about-us/press-release/ Milton Keynes Amateur Radio Society http://forum.mkars.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1494 The Projected Picture Trust still has it has a site at Bletchley http://www.ppttrust.org/locations/bletchley-park/events-and-news but I can't see any info about it here :- https://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/content/visit/alsotosee.rhtm which just mentions the National Radio Exhibition and The National Museum of Computing. > > Of course there is another way to look at it. Make it difficult to get to and > only the really keen ones will go. > Not only a retrospective show but introspective one as well. > > Was there anybody there who actually worked for DEC or am I the last of the > many? I worked for DEC for the last few weeks of its existence. > > That said.. If there is another one (show that is) and I'm fit to travel I may well > come up. > > Rod > > On 14/04/2015 11:08, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > >> Smallwood > >> Sent: 14 April 2015 10:31 > >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > >> Off- Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures > >> > >> Hi Mark > >> I think we would all like to live near the Lake > >> District and an excuse to visit is always welcome. > >> Venue is easy. Slap in the middle = Birmingham. > >> > >> Years ago DEC bought in market surveys as to the best place for shows. > >> All had the same answer. Birmingham > >> London was too expensive and everywhere else remote or poor access. > > Ah typical, Manchester "Remote".... Has he tried getting into central > > Birmingham recently, with all the road works. Its quicker by Canal > > Boat:-( > > > > Its also getting expensive to find venues in Birmingham, as it is about as > central as you can get in the UK. Decent accommodation (it was a two day > event) can also be challenging. > > > >> What is the point of me having 20+ working DEC systems if I can't > >> show them unless I become a long distance lorry driver? > >> > > Organize your own event! I wonder if the TNMOC of computing would let > us run an event there? But of course they don't have much space either and > they are, I believe still not really on speaking terms with Bletchley... > > > >> Good luck for next year. > >> At least I can look at the pictures > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> > >> > >> On 14/04/2015 10:01, Mark Wickens wrote: > >>> Rod > >>> > >>> Where would you consider accessible in terms of major cities? This > >>> question comes up every year and I'm open to suggestions, but it > >>> would probably end up with me having a three hour drive instead. The > >>> problem I'll have is the 'unknowns' of a new venue - we still have a > >>> few of them here every year even though the event has run several > >>> times now and it's a lot easier to get things sorted close to home. > >>> > >>> This year I've have folks come from South West England, Wales, Kent > >>> and even Holland - and that included a substantial amount of kit. As > >>> far as I know it's all survived (apart from a VT320 - but that died > >>> before it left the building). > >>> > >>> Having said that I appreciate there is a not insubstantial expense > >>> in travel and accommodation that would be mitigated if the event > >>> were within a reasonable distance. > >>> > >>> Regards, Mark > >>> > >>> On 14/04/15 09:11, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >>>> It a pity its not somewhere more accessible. > >>>> I have plenty of DEC systems that run. > >>>> However a four hour drive would not do them or me any good. > >>>> > >>>> Rod Smallwood > >>>> Digital Equipment Corporation (1973-1985) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 14/04/2015 06:22, kirkbdavis at hush.com wrote: > >>>>> Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. > >>>>> > >>>>> On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" > >> wrote: > >>>>>> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: > >>>>>> http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many > >>>>>> thanks to the presenters (local and remote) and everyone who > >>>>>> attended. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, Mark. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into > >>>>>> the DEC Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. > > From cae at ncia.net Tue Apr 14 09:33:45 2015 From: cae at ncia.net (Willian) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:33:45 -0400 Subject: DEC manuals free to good home In-Reply-To: <20150414130501.622EE18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150414130501.622EE18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.1.20150414103207.03470008@ncia.net> Hi Noel, Do you still have them? I would like them. Thanks William At 09:05 a.m. 14/04/2015, you wrote: >Hi all, as part of a recent purchase of a group of DEC manuals, I have some >duplicates, which are going free to a good home. (I'd prefer it if they went >to people who didn't have any copies of the manual in question, but I'm not >hard and fast on that.) They are: > > EB-26078-41 Microcomputer Products Handbook (1985) > EB-20912-18 Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1982) > EB-28251-20 Terminals and Communications Handbook (1980) > >Email me if you want one. (I will, of course, need your address! :-) > > Noel > > >----- >Se certifico que el correo no contiene virus. >Comprobada por AVG - www.avg.es >Version: 2014.0.4800 / Base de datos de virus: 4311/9536 - Fecha de >la version: 04/14/2015 From simski at dds.nl Tue Apr 14 09:39:23 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 16:39:23 +0200 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: References: <55278D1D.7020402@jwsss.com> <003901d0748c$0b906400$22b12c00$@xs4all.nl> <552ABC87.60901@dds.nl> Message-ID: <552D269B.8030303@dds.nl> what's a THE? this word in google gives not the answers i was looking for... On 12-04-15 22:10, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: >> well, not exactly. there is a X8 here in Arnhem still in existence. :-) but > > Oh! That's good to hear. > > I keep hoping that someone saved a copy of THE. > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 14 09:55:31 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands Message-ID: <20150414145531.23B3E18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Simon Claessen > what's a THE? You're in Holland and you don't know? :-) One of the great Dutch achievements in computer science: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE_multiprogramming_system Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 14 10:27:12 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 11:27:12 -0400 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <20150414145531.23B3E18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150414145531.23B3E18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Apr 14, 2015, at 10:55 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Simon Claessen > >> what's a THE? > > You're in Holland and you don't know? :-) One of the great Dutch achievements > in computer science: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE_multiprogramming_system Not quite. The correct description is ?one of the great achievements in computer science?. paul From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 10:45:20 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 17:45:20 +0200 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <552CA7A4.9020104@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> <552CA7A4.9020104@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: Yup, that's Edward's 11/70 console with behind it the 6809 Core and I/O Boards. More info: www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/cons1170/cons70startpage.html There is more, but then you have to go via the "Navigation" section at the left side (www.pdp-11.nl) and go to the "my projects" at the bottom. Remark: there are several pages that are "404" or blank. I am working on a major update of my website (see "update info" at the top...) - Henk -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Mark Wickens Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:37 AM To: General at classiccmp.org ; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures It's a front panel with a custom SIMH backend, in case you hadn't tied the pictures together. You could probably hang it on the wall in a picture frame and still have it useable :D Regards, Mark On 14/04/15 06:22, kirkbdavis at hush.com wrote: > Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. > > On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" wrote: >> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: >> http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image >> >> Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many >> thanks to the >> presenters (local and remote) and everyone who attended. >> >> Regards, Mark. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 14 10:50:43 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:50:43 -0500 Subject: Meaning of RD54 Beeps In-Reply-To: <005401d07690$c1af8c60$450ea520$@ntlworld.com> References: <005401d07690$c1af8c60$450ea520$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <552D3753.3060706@pico-systems.com> On 04/14/2015 03:55 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I managed to get an RD54 going again (a different one to the one I was > having trouble with recently). However, if I try to back it up, the backup > is slow, I get quite a few read errors, and it often makes the beeping sound > that it makes when you first power it on. > > > > Clearly the disk is not that well, but I wonder if anyone knows what exactly > the beep means? Is it a signal that it has reached the correct rotational > speed, or that it has re-calibrated the track position, or something else? > If it is more of a chirping sound than a strong beep, I think it is the head recalibrate sequence. Every time the system does a Q-bus bus reset, and probably at other times like sensing the drive configuration, it causes the drives to do a head recalibrate on all drives. Other times when errors occur, it will also do a recalibrate operation on that drive. This generally does make a sort of tone. As far as I know, the RD-54 does NOT have an actual audio transducer. Jon From simski at dds.nl Tue Apr 14 12:44:06 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 19:44:06 +0200 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <20150414145531.23B3E18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150414145531.23B3E18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <552D51E6.50704@dds.nl> I'm not THAT old... :-) thanks for the link. On 14-04-15 16:55, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Simon Claessen > > > what's a THE? > > You're in Holland and you don't know? :-) One of the great Dutch achievements > in computer science: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE_multiprogramming_system > > Noel > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From ehogan at unimetrix.com Tue Apr 14 13:02:35 2015 From: ehogan at unimetrix.com (Ed Hogan) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 11:02:35 -0700 Subject: SMD Drives Message-ID: A few people asking for SMD Drives model specific. What models? Best regards, Ed Hogan Unimetrix Corporation 20371 Lake Forest Drive Suite A-7 Lake Forest, CA 92630 Phone: 949-215-2475 x101 Toll Free: 800-633-9955 x101 FAX: 949-215-2472 Email: ehogan at unimetrix.com Web: www.unimetrix.com THIS COMMUNICATION MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR OTHERWISE PROPRIETARY MATERIAL and is thus for use only by the intended recipient. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail and its attachments from all computers. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 14 13:26:28 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 11:26:28 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: References: <1C2BDE26-E5FC-4672-9A3D-F7602C3FF2D4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <552D5BD4.8050201@bitsavers.org> On 4/14/15 2:07 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > I hope someone is able to rescue this system, if you're curious a > brief overview is here: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_B1700 > > A really unusual and interesting system, particularly the loadable > microcode for new instruction sets. This is quite definitely a R at R3 > L@@K super-rare unusual system (to overwork an eBay meme). > > If someone gets this, I have lots of spares which probably aren't going to be around past this summer. There are a couple of obvious things missing, like the cold-start cassette and any disk drives. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 14 13:33:11 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 11:33:11 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: <552D5BD4.8050201@bitsavers.org> References: <1C2BDE26-E5FC-4672-9A3D-F7602C3FF2D4@yahoo.com> <552D5BD4.8050201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <552D5D67.90209@bitsavers.org> On 4/14/15 11:26 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/14/15 2:07 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: >> I hope someone is able to rescue this system, if you're curious a >> brief overview is here: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_B1700 >> >> A really unusual and interesting system, particularly the loadable >> microcode for new instruction sets. This is quite definitely a R at R3 >> L@@K super-rare unusual system (to overwork an eBay meme). >> >> > > If someone gets this, I have lots of spares which probably aren't going to be > around past this summer. > > There are a couple of obvious things missing, like the cold-start cassette and > any disk drives. > > > > > dumps of the tapes would be a good thing, but is is going to be difficult to recover them given their physical condition From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 13:45:18 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:45:18 +0200 Subject: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console Message-ID: I saw a few listings on eBay of the DIGITAL Remote Services Console. I have one in excellent condition, and it would be nice to put it in use. But so far, I have not been able to find *any* documentation. Info on the four 25-pin sub-D connectors would be a great start. They are labeled A1, A2, B1, and B2. For pictures in the auctions, I'm guessing that A1 connects to a VT-style terminal and A2 connects to the system console port. That implies that the B connectors are intended to connect to modems. But I do not want to connect anything until I've seen documentation! Does anybody have info on this nice box? thanks, - Henk From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 14:02:20 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 12:02:20 -0700 Subject: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I saw a few listings on eBay of the DIGITAL Remote Services Console. > I have one in excellent condition, and it would be nice to put it in use. > But so far, I have not been able to find *any* documentation. > > Info on the four 25-pin sub-D connectors would be a great start. > They are labeled A1, A2, B1, and B2. For pictures in the auctions, I'm > guessing that A1 connects to a VT-style terminal and A2 connects > to the system console port. That implies that the B connectors are > intended to connect to modems. > > But I do not want to connect anything until I've seen documentation! > Does anybody have info on this nice box? If you're curious enough you could buy a copy of this EK-KCRSC-FS-001 manual if you can't find a copy online anywhere: http://www.ebay.com/itm/321490484222 Here's a start: http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=104957386722590 List: classiccmp Subject: Remote Services Consoles REVEALED! From: Chuck McManis Date: 2000-07-29 22:14:58 I found DEC document EK-KCRSC-FS-001 "Remote Services Console: Field Service Manual." Sometimes I'm sure God is a computer collector. Connections: Connector Local Console Terminal A1 CPU Conole Port A2 Optional to Comm port B1 Connection to modem B2 Now the way it works is it can use the modem from an existing dial-in line which presumably the customer would already have. So where you would normally have: Console >-------------> Computer Modem >-----------==> Comm port You get +---+ Console >---+ R +------> console | S | Modem >----+ C +------> comm port +---+ This lets the modem be used to dial in the console or on the comm port when not remotely diagnosing issues. Buttons on the front control baud rate, the mapping is: out out out 300 in out out 1200 out in out 2400 out out in 4800 in in in 9600 Baud T is the terminal and should match the console port setting Baud M is the modem (1200 baud preferred :-) The various modes: REMOTE - modem can dial into the console. Light blinks when no one is dialed in REMOTE USER - modem is connected to the comm port USER PORT - all operation is transparent console and modem connect "straight through" to the other connector LOCKOUT - modem can't be used to get to the system. The dial in line uses the DDCMP protocol to insure data integrity. I'm not sure what this means in terms of being able to dial it from a PC. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 14:20:40 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 21:20:40 +0200 Subject: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Glen Slick Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 9:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I saw a few listings on eBay of the DIGITAL Remote Services Console. > I have one in excellent condition, and it would be nice to put it in use. > But so far, I have not been able to find *any* documentation. > > Info on the four 25-pin sub-D connectors would be a great start. > They are labeled A1, A2, B1, and B2. For pictures in the auctions, I'm > guessing that A1 connects to a VT-style terminal and A2 connects > to the system console port. That implies that the B connectors are > intended to connect to modems. > > But I do not want to connect anything until I've seen documentation! > Does anybody have info on this nice box? If you're curious enough you could buy a copy of this EK-KCRSC-FS-001 manual if you can't find a copy online anywhere: http://www.ebay.com/itm/321490484222 Here's a start: http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=104957386722590 List: classiccmp Subject: Remote Services Consoles REVEALED! From: Chuck McManis Date: 2000-07-29 22:14:58 I found DEC document EK-KCRSC-FS-001 "Remote Services Console: Field Service Manual." Sometimes I'm sure God is a computer collector. Connections: Connector Local Console Terminal A1 CPU Conole Port A2 Optional to Comm port B1 Connection to modem B2 Now the way it works is it can use the modem from an existing dial-in line which presumably the customer would already have. So where you would normally have: Console >-------------> Computer Modem >-----------==> Comm port You get +---+ Console >---+ R +------> console | S | Modem >----+ C +------> comm port +---+ This lets the modem be used to dial in the console or on the comm port when not remotely diagnosing issues. Buttons on the front control baud rate, the mapping is: out out out 300 in out out 1200 out in out 2400 out out in 4800 in in in 9600 Baud T is the terminal and should match the console port setting Baud M is the modem (1200 baud preferred :-) The various modes: REMOTE - modem can dial into the console. Light blinks when no one is dialed in REMOTE USER - modem is connected to the comm port USER PORT - all operation is transparent console and modem connect "straight through" to the other connector LOCKOUT - modem can't be used to get to the system. The dial in line uses the DDCMP protocol to insure data integrity. I'm not sure what this means in terms of being able to dial it from a PC. ---- Henk's reply Thanks Glen, that is already very useful information. I will add this to my web site! And test this of course ... Yes, I am curious enough, however ... I have bought parts and documentation from this eBay seller (efi) before. My guess is that he might accept a $10 offer for this manual, but I cannot do that, because the additional international shipping costs are absurd. If somebody could do the offer of $10, and ship the manual to me in a letter, as a private person (instead of a company), I would pay all expenses and add some "beer" money. Thanks. - Henk From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 14 14:37:49 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 15:37:49 -0400 Subject: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11DD8F72-479E-49DB-A26B-54EF0C46FFE3@comcast.net> > On Apr 14, 2015, at 3:20 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > ... > Yes, I am curious enough, however ... > I have bought parts and documentation from this eBay seller (efi) before. > My guess is that he might accept a $10 offer for this manual, but I cannot > do that, because the additional international shipping costs are absurd. > > If somebody could do the offer of $10, and ship the manual to me in a letter, > as a private person (instead of a company), I would pay all expenses and > add some "beer" money. Instead of a company? Postage does not depend on who sends it. Books used to be able to be shipped rather cheaply. If that is still true, it would be true for any shipper. If the shipper claims his rates are higher because he?s a company, you should take your business elsewhere. paul From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 14:47:27 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 21:47:27 +0200 Subject: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console In-Reply-To: <11DD8F72-479E-49DB-A26B-54EF0C46FFE3@comcast.net> References: <11DD8F72-479E-49DB-A26B-54EF0C46FFE3@comcast.net> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Paul Koning Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 9:37 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console > On Apr 14, 2015, at 3:20 PM, Henk Gooijen > wrote: > > ... > Yes, I am curious enough, however ... > I have bought parts and documentation from this eBay seller (efi) before. > My guess is that he might accept a $10 offer for this manual, but I cannot > do that, because the additional international shipping costs are absurd. > > If somebody could do the offer of $10, and ship the manual to me in a > letter, > as a private person (instead of a company), I would pay all expenses and > add some "beer" money. Instead of a company? Postage does not depend on who sends it. Books used to be able to be shipped rather cheaply. If that is still true, it would be true for any shipper. If the shipper claims his rates are higher because he?s a company, you should take your business elsewhere. paul ---- Henk's reply Hi Paul. As a person you would ship this as a letter and be done with it. However, (AFAIK), a company ships using standard priority rates, and my impression is that that is a lot more. In the eBay listing it shows that the shipping cost for these (guessing) 20 pages is some $25. A person shipping 20 pages in a letter pays less ... or are USPS rates rocketed sky high over the last year? - Henk From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 14 15:06:43 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 16:06:43 -0400 Subject: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console In-Reply-To: References: <11DD8F72-479E-49DB-A26B-54EF0C46FFE3@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 14, 2015, at 3:47 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Paul Koning > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 9:37 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console > > >> On Apr 14, 2015, at 3:20 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> >> ... >> Yes, I am curious enough, however ... >> I have bought parts and documentation from this eBay seller (efi) before. >> My guess is that he might accept a $10 offer for this manual, but I cannot >> do that, because the additional international shipping costs are absurd. >> >> If somebody could do the offer of $10, and ship the manual to me in a letter, >> as a private person (instead of a company), I would pay all expenses and >> add some "beer" money. > > Instead of a company? Postage does not depend on who sends it. Books used to be able to be shipped rather cheaply. If that is still true, it would be true for any shipper. If the shipper claims his rates are higher because he?s a company, you should take your business elsewhere. > > paul > > ---- Henk's reply > Hi Paul. > As a person you would ship this as a letter and be done with it. > However, (AFAIK), a company ships using standard priority rates, > and my impression is that that is a lot more. In the eBay listing it > shows that the shipping cost for these (guessing) 20 pages is > some $25. A person shipping 20 pages in a letter pays less ... or > are USPS rates rocketed sky high over the last year? According to usps.com, shipping an 8 ounce ?large letter? to the Netherlands costs $8.85 as a ?large envelope? (i.e., it?s letter size paper or somewhat larger, shipped flat). If the envelope is ?too rigid?, it would be a ?first class package? which costs $12.75. Yes, you can certainly send priority mail, and that will run you $25 or so for the same item, but that isn?t the lowest cost option. But there is no requirement to use priority mail, not for individuals, not for companies. paul From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 15:27:14 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 16:27:14 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina References: <1C2BDE26-E5FC-4672-9A3D-F7602C3FF2D4@yahoo.com> <552D5BD4.8050201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > There are a couple of obvious things missing, > like the cold-start cassette ... Couldn't the cassette still be in the drive? Sure would be nice to see what's behind that side cover... m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 2:26 PM Subject: Re: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina > On 4/14/15 2:07 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: >> I hope someone is able to rescue this system, >> if you're curious a >> brief overview is here: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_B1700 >> >> A really unusual and interesting system, >> particularly the loadable >> microcode for new instruction sets. This is >> quite definitely a R at R3 >> L@@K super-rare unusual system (to overwork an >> eBay meme). >> >> > > If someone gets this, I have lots of spares > which probably aren't going to be > around past this summer. > > There are a couple of obvious things missing, > like the cold-start cassette and > any disk drives. > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 15:31:42 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 13:31:42 -0700 Subject: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console In-Reply-To: References: <11DD8F72-479E-49DB-A26B-54EF0C46FFE3@comcast.net> Message-ID: Well someone just bought that EK-KCRSC-FS-001 manual not too long ago so hope it went to someone that can scan and share it. From cae at ncia.net Tue Apr 14 16:15:03 2015 From: cae at ncia.net (Willian) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 17:15:03 -0400 Subject: DEC manuals free to good home In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.1.20150414103207.03470008@ncia.net> References: <20150414130501.622EE18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7.0.0.16.1.20150414103207.03470008@ncia.net> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.1.20150414171302.034463f8@ncia.net> Hi Noel, My address is WILLIAM GERMAN P.O. BOX 228 FRANCONIA, NH 03580 My phone is 603-823-9500 Thanks Bill At 10:33 a.m. 14/04/2015, you wrote: >Hi Noel, > >Do you still have them? I would like them. > >Thanks > >William > >At 09:05 a.m. 14/04/2015, you wrote: >>Hi all, as part of a recent purchase of a group of DEC manuals, I have some >>duplicates, which are going free to a good home. (I'd prefer it if they went >>to people who didn't have any copies of the manual in question, but I'm not >>hard and fast on that.) They are: >> >> EB-26078-41 Microcomputer Products Handbook (1985) >> EB-20912-18 Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1982) >> EB-28251-20 Terminals and Communications Handbook (1980) >> >>Email me if you want one. (I will, of course, need your address! :-) >> >> Noel >> >> >>----- >>Se certifico que el correo no contiene virus. >>Comprobada por AVG - www.avg.es >>Version: 2014.0.4800 / Base de datos de virus: 4311/9536 - Fecha de >>la version: 04/14/2015 > > > >----- >Se certifico que el correo no contiene virus. >Comprobada por AVG - www.avg.es >Version: 2014.0.4800 / Base de datos de virus: 4311/9539 - Fecha de >la version: 04/14/2015 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 14 16:16:18 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 17:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UK PDP11 wanted Message-ID: <20150414211618.8672618C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist >> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-February/003756.html > Cool. Sure; glad you liked it. >> But the QBUS part of _any_ QBUS backplane is not 'directional' >> ... >> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-February/003757.html > there is still a question on whether the CPU just pass all signals > through that you need. Perhaps I'm confused, but the only QBUS signals which are not 'broadcast' (i.e. sent down a wired-OR bi-directional bus transmission line to all cards) are the grant lines. The CPU doesn't pass them through, it originates them - but memory cards ignore those lines anyway? > With PMI memory, it obviously works somewhat different, since the CPU > sources signals in just one direction (hence the reason the PMI memory > have to be before the CPU) Actually, the PMI signals are all (I'm pretty sure, but have not checked) just like most other QBUS signals - 'broadcast' bi-directionally down a transmission line. The 'PMI memory before the CPU' thing in 11/83's is simply an artifact of the way 'standard' Q/CD backplanes are wired on the CD side (used for PMI) - see that second post for details. In the 11/84 backplane, the PMI memory lines _are_ bussed to all the slots, just like the QBUS lines, which is why 11/84 PMI memory cards go after the CPU. (So you could in fact have an empty slot between the CPU and the first PMI memory card in an 11/84, and it should still work.) > [the CPU] also interacts/intercepts with all other memory accesses to > the PMI memory. My impression is that the CPU does not get involved in DMA access to PMI memory. In an 11/83, I gather the DMA devices just do ordinary QBUS memory cycles to it (see the MSV11-J manual, pg. 1-1, middle). In an 11/84, with UNIBUS adapter, IIRC the UNIBUS adapter does PMI cycles direct to the memory (but don't quote me on that, I haven't checked the 11/84 documentation, although the MSV11-J manual indicates it does - see pg. 1-1, bottom). > Which is yet another reason why the PMI memory sits before the CPU. If > you put PMI memory after the CPU, it will instead work as normal Qbus > memory. I'm pretty sure that whether PMI memory works as PMI memory or QBUS memory depends only on what it hears on the busses, and nothing else. If it sees a PMI cycle for it, it does a PMI cycle; if it sees a QBUS cycle for it, it does a QBUS cycle.*1 So in an 11/84, where it's on the bus after the CPU, it does PMI cycles with the CPU because the CPU does a PMI cycle. (1: Note that the MSV11-JB and -JC variants don't do QBUS properly, and are PMI only, and so can't be used in an 11/83. I seem to recall hearing it's just QBUS block mode transfers that they don't do properly?) Which all does raise an interesting question: if an M8190 is in a system with a _mix_ of PMI and regular QBUS memory, do accesses to both memories work fine? (E.g. if it's in a Q/CD backplane with a PMI board before it, and a regular QBUS memory card after it.) Something to try, I guess - I have a working Q22/CD box, and plenty of cards - should just plug them in and try it! Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 14 16:17:21 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 17:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands Message-ID: <20150414211721.AF53918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning >> One of the great Dutch achievements in computer science: > The correct description is "one of the great achievements in > computer science". Take that set of things. There's a sub-set which are due to Dutch people/institutions. That's what/all I meant. > From: Simon Claessen > I'm not THAT old... :-) What, you think I am? :-) It's called 'knowing your field's history', like knowing what Bohr's atomic model was, if you're a physicist... Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 16:44:25 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 14:44:25 -0700 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: <20150414211618.8672618C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150414211618.8672618C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Actually, the PMI signals are all (I'm pretty sure, but have not checked) just > like most other QBUS signals - 'broadcast' bi-directionally down a > transmission line. The 'PMI memory before the CPU' thing in 11/83's is simply > an artifact of the way 'standard' Q/CD backplanes are wired on the CD side > (used for PMI) - see that second post for details. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-MSV1J-UG_001_May85.pdf MSV11-J MOS Memory User's Guide Page 4-7, Table 4-3 Backplane Pine Utilization NOTES: 3. All PMI signals except PBYT have the connectors on side 1 etched to the respective signal on side 2 of the module. So the backplane doesn't directly bus the PMI signals across all Q/CD slots in a BA23 / BA123 chassis, but when PMI memory boards are installed above and adjacent to the M8190 CPU the PMI signals are bused through one PMI memory board to the one above and adjacent to it, if any. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 14 17:24:56 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 23:24:56 +0100 Subject: Meaning of RD54 Beeps In-Reply-To: <552D3753.3060706@pico-systems.com> References: <005401d07690$c1af8c60$450ea520$@ntlworld.com> <552D3753.3060706@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <00b101d07701$d64d7ee0$82e87ca0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 14 April 2015 16:51 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Meaning of RD54 Beeps > > On 04/14/2015 03:55 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I managed to get an RD54 going again (a different one to the one I was > > having trouble with recently). However, if I try to back it up, the > > backup is slow, I get quite a few read errors, and it often makes the > > beeping sound that it makes when you first power it on. > > > > > > > > Clearly the disk is not that well, but I wonder if anyone knows what > > exactly the beep means? Is it a signal that it has reached the correct > > rotational speed, or that it has re-calibrated the track position, or something > else? > > > If it is more of a chirping sound than a strong beep, Yes, I didn't mean to suggest it was a proper buzzer, so it is the chirping sound you mention. I think it is the head > recalibrate sequence. > Every time the system does a Q-bus bus reset, and probably at other times like > sensing the drive configuration, it causes the drives to do a head recalibrate on > all drives. > Other times when errors occur, it will also do a recalibrate operation on that > drive. This generally does make a sort of tone. As far as I know, the RD-54 > does NOT have an actual audio transducer. Right, so it sounds like it is indeed a recalibration. I had wondered if it was something to do with the drive getting up to speed, since I have replaced the power transistors that drive the spindle. I suppose I am not sure what kinds of errors would cause this to happen, but I am pretty sure the read errors must be related. Perhaps I should format the drive in one of my MicroVAX 2000 machines. It is interesting to note that the chirping does not occur when the disk is not being accessed, but did occur quite a bit when I tried to back it up. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 14 17:34:56 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 23:34:56 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures In-Reply-To: <552D0026.9060007@btinternet.com> References: <20150414052249.EC6CB40541@smtp.hushmail.com> <552CCBBB.6060204@btinternet.com> <552CD75F.9030404@wickensonline.co.uk> <552CDE70.3030101@btinternet.com> <002301d0769b$0544ae60$0fce0b20$@gmail.com> <552D0026.9060007@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <00b301d07703$3b99d950$b2cd8bf0$@ntlworld.com> I have advocated venues further South a few times, but as I am not the organiser it is not for me to say. I would quite like it to be in Manchester! But, am I prepared to put in the effort to organise it? I am guessing that when you talk about a retrospective show, you mean something designed to inform the public. I don't think this is an event intended to inform the public, it is really just an informal gathering for enthusiasts, so in that sense you are right that it is introspective, but I don't see anything wrong with that. What you seem to be talking about is a much larger event, with many visitors, exhibitors etc. That would make organising it orders of magnitude harder and riskier financially. If someone wants to take that on then that would be great, I would consider attending. Although, the bigger such an event gets, the more formal it gets, the more rules there are; I think it would be less fun. I don't get the bit about the risk to equipment in getting it to the Lake District. I would expect that moving it 20 miles or moving it 200 miles wouldn't make much difference. At a bigger event, with more people milling around it, I would think it was more at risk from people messing with it while you aren't looking. In the end I think it comes down to this. The organiser can organise it to be anywhere he feels most comfortable in organising it. If someone else wants a similar event somewhere else, then they should either find someone who wants to organise it, or they should do it themselves. It sounds like you have some interesting stuff, if you do decide to make the trip it would be great to see you at the next one. What would you bring? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: 14 April 2015 12:55 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures > > Hi yes all good points. > > It wasn't DEC who considered places remote it was their customers. > I have no axe to grind I'm a born and bred Liverpool Scouser and would defend > the Northwest if needed. > > DEC did have a large office in Manchester and think an offshoot in Leeds. > > The question was simple " Where do I put a show to get the maximum of > attendees?" > You already know the answer. It cost DEC a few grand to find that one out. > > Bletchley Park. A shame. A house divided against itself or an agressive take > over. Is the war over yet? > > Of course there is another way to look at it. Make it difficult to get to and only > the really keen ones will go. > Not only a retrospective show but introspective one as well. > > Was there anybody there who actually worked for DEC or am I the last of the > many? > > That said.. If there is another one (show that is) and I'm fit to travel I may well > come up. > > Rod > > On 14/04/2015 11:08, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > >> Smallwood > >> Sent: 14 April 2015 10:31 > >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > >> Off- Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: DEC Legacy 2015 Pictures > >> > >> Hi Mark > >> I think we would all like to live near the Lake > >> District and an excuse to visit is always welcome. > >> Venue is easy. Slap in the middle = Birmingham. > >> > >> Years ago DEC bought in market surveys as to the best place for shows. > >> All had the same answer. Birmingham > >> London was too expensive and everywhere else remote or poor access. > > Ah typical, Manchester "Remote".... Has he tried getting into central > > Birmingham recently, with all the road works. Its quicker by Canal > > Boat:-( > > > > Its also getting expensive to find venues in Birmingham, as it is about as > central as you can get in the UK. Decent accommodation (it was a two day > event) can also be challenging. > > > >> What is the point of me having 20+ working DEC systems if I can't > >> show them unless I become a long distance lorry driver? > >> > > Organize your own event! I wonder if the TNMOC of computing would let us > run an event there? But of course they don't have much space either and they > are, I believe still not really on speaking terms with Bletchley... > > > >> Good luck for next year. > >> At least I can look at the pictures > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> > >> > >> On 14/04/2015 10:01, Mark Wickens wrote: > >>> Rod > >>> > >>> Where would you consider accessible in terms of major cities? This > >>> question comes up every year and I'm open to suggestions, but it > >>> would probably end up with me having a three hour drive instead. The > >>> problem I'll have is the 'unknowns' of a new venue - we still have a > >>> few of them here every year even though the event has run several > >>> times now and it's a lot easier to get things sorted close to home. > >>> > >>> This year I've have folks come from South West England, Wales, Kent > >>> and even Holland - and that included a substantial amount of kit. As > >>> far as I know it's all survived (apart from a VT320 - but that died > >>> before it left the building). > >>> > >>> Having said that I appreciate there is a not insubstantial expense > >>> in travel and accommodation that would be mitigated if the event > >>> were within a reasonable distance. > >>> > >>> Regards, Mark > >>> > >>> On 14/04/15 09:11, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >>>> It a pity its not somewhere more accessible. > >>>> I have plenty of DEC systems that run. > >>>> However a four hour drive would not do them or me any good. > >>>> > >>>> Rod Smallwood > >>>> Digital Equipment Corporation (1973-1985) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 14/04/2015 06:22, kirkbdavis at hush.com wrote: > >>>>> Man that 11/70 sure would look nice on my coffee table.. > >>>>> > >>>>> On April 13, 2015 at 10:20 PM, "Mark Wickens" > >> wrote: > >>>>>> I've uploaded some photos from the 2015 DEC Legacy event: > >>>>>> http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/image > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Had a great time - already looking forward to the next one. Many > >>>>>> thanks to the presenters (local and remote) and everyone who > >>>>>> attended. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, Mark. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> p.s. yes, I will try and get a better gallery tool embedded into > >>>>>> the DEC Legacy site. The drupal one I'm currently using sucks. > > From simski at dds.nl Tue Apr 14 17:42:40 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 00:42:40 +0200 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <20150414211721.AF53918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150414211721.AF53918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <552D97E0.60604@dds.nl> Ah, then it's not my field. :-) On 14-04-15 23:17, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > >> One of the great Dutch achievements in computer science: > > > The correct description is "one of the great achievements in > > computer science". > > Take that set of things. There's a sub-set which are due to Dutch > people/institutions. That's what/all I meant. > > > From: Simon Claessen > > > I'm not THAT old... :-) > > What, you think I am? :-) It's called 'knowing your field's history', like > knowing what Bohr's atomic model was, if you're a physicist... > > Noel > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 14 17:44:39 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 00:44:39 +0200 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: <20150414211618.8672618C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150414211618.8672618C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <552D9857.1000809@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-14 23:16, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > >> But the QBUS part of _any_ QBUS backplane is not 'directional' > >> ... > >> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-February/003757.html > > > there is still a question on whether the CPU just pass all signals > > through that you need. > > Perhaps I'm confused, but the only QBUS signals which are not 'broadcast' > (i.e. sent down a wired-OR bi-directional bus transmission line to all cards) > are the grant lines. The CPU doesn't pass them through, it originates them - > but memory cards ignore those lines anyway? I think that is correct. > > With PMI memory, it obviously works somewhat different, since the CPU > > sources signals in just one direction (hence the reason the PMI memory > > have to be before the CPU) > > Actually, the PMI signals are all (I'm pretty sure, but have not checked) just > like most other QBUS signals - 'broadcast' bi-directionally down a > transmission line. The 'PMI memory before the CPU' thing in 11/83's is simply > an artifact of the way 'standard' Q/CD backplanes are wired on the CD side > (used for PMI) - see that second post for details. But because of the way the CD slots are wired, it cannot be a general broadcast thing. Even if the cards just connect two pins together, in order to pass the signals along, it means that those signals can be cut. > In the 11/84 backplane, the PMI memory lines _are_ bussed to all the slots, > just like the QBUS lines, which is why 11/84 PMI memory cards go after the > CPU. (So you could in fact have an empty slot between the CPU and the first > PMI memory card in an 11/84, and it should still work.) Right. The backplane of the 11/84 is wired differently than a Q-CD backplane. > > [the CPU] also interacts/intercepts with all other memory accesses to > > the PMI memory. > > My impression is that the CPU does not get involved in DMA access to PMI > memory. You might be right. This is one thing I'd like to check though. And I think this is my point of worry... > In an 11/83, I gather the DMA devices just do ordinary QBUS memory cycles to > it (see the MSV11-J manual, pg. 1-1, middle). In an 11/84, with UNIBUS > adapter, IIRC the UNIBUS adapter does PMI cycles direct to the memory (but > don't quote me on that, I haven't checked the 11/84 documentation, although > the MSV11-J manual indicates it does - see pg. 1-1, bottom). Yes, the the Unibus adapter speaks PMI all the time. > > Which is yet another reason why the PMI memory sits before the CPU. If > > you put PMI memory after the CPU, it will instead work as normal Qbus > > memory. > > I'm pretty sure that whether PMI memory works as PMI memory or QBUS memory > depends only on what it hears on the busses, and nothing else. If it sees a > PMI cycle for it, it does a PMI cycle; if it sees a QBUS cycle for it, it does > a QBUS cycle.*1 So in an 11/84, where it's on the bus after the CPU, it does > PMI cycles with the CPU because the CPU does a PMI cycle. Well, in a way that is obviously correct. The memory works as PMI or plan Qbus memory simply based on where it is located in relationship to the CPU, so obviously it does Qbus cycles or PMI cycles depending on what it hears on the buses. > (1: Note that the MSV11-JB and -JC variants don't do QBUS properly, and are > PMI only, and so can't be used in an 11/83. I seem to recall hearing it's > just QBUS block mode transfers that they don't do properly?) That is more than I knew. > Which all does raise an interesting question: if an M8190 is in a system with > a _mix_ of PMI and regular QBUS memory, do accesses to both memories work > fine? (E.g. if it's in a Q/CD backplane with a PMI board before it, and a > regular QBUS memory card after it.) > > Something to try, I guess - I have a working Q22/CD box, and plenty of cards > - should just plug them in and try it! As far as I know/understand, this will work just fine if you put the Qbus memory after the CPU and PMI memory before. I don't know what happens in general if you put Qbus memory before the CPU. That is another interesting question. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From connork at connorsdomain.com Tue Apr 14 19:06:09 2015 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:06:09 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: References: <1C2BDE26-E5FC-4672-9A3D-F7602C3FF2D4@yahoo.com> <552D5BD4.8050201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <552DAB71.8020808@connorsdomain.com> I emailed the guy and asked if he has gotten any people interested in it and he said there isn't and he's going to scrap it soon. Though I'd let everyone know, I'd love to get it myself but the time and money just isn't there... I asked if it has been left out in the rain or not and got "Has been kept of rain" in return. So take that as you will. Hope someone can save this system, as it seems Burroughs systems don't pop up often... -Connor K From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 14 19:32:17 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC-40 update Message-ID: Hey, I got a directory listing of the FE disk... .dir 40fe:[*,*,*,*,*] 1,1 1 <555> 8-Sep-95 40FE: [1,1] 1,4 1 <755> 8-Sep-95 3,3 0 <700> 8-Sep-95 1,2 1 <754> 8-Sep-95 3,6 0 <766> 8-Sep-95 3,11 0 <700> 8-Sep-95 3,7 0 <700> 8-Sep-95 1,340 1 <754> 31-Mar-97 Total of 4 blocks in 8 files on 40FE: [1,1] SAT SYS 109 <555> 8-Sep-95 [1,4] HOME SYS 19 <555> 8-Sep-95 BADBLK SYS 4 <557> 8-Sep-95 MARSFE SYS 5002 <057> 30-Jul-97 Total of 5134 blocks in 4 files on 40FE: [1,4] %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,2]RESTOR.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) RESTOR EXE 84 <057> 2-Nov-94 3A(52) [1,2] %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,2]FILSAV.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) FILSAV EXE 128 <666> 12-Sep-88 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,2]MSFILE.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) MSFILE EXE 64 <057> 7-Mar-94 12(24) Total of 276 blocks in 3 files on 40FE: [1,2] A OUT 506 <057> 29-Jan-96 [1,340] NCP MCS 217 <057> 13-Jan-95 SX BIN 73 <057> 30-Aug-94 SX MCS 27 <057> 12-Dec-93 FX OLD 51 <057> 21-Oct-94 N1LX 609 501 <057> 2-Mar-94 N1LX REL 20 <057> 1-Mar-94 N1LX ULD 502 <057> 30-Sep-94 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]BOOT40.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode ) BOOT40 EXE 24 <057> 10-Nov-94 25B(161) %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DEBKVB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode ) DEBKVB EXE 96 <057> 10-Nov-94 CPYFE COM 3 <057> 1-Apr-96 PINI40 CMD 1 <057> 2-Mar-94 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKAA.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKAA EXE 176 <057> 27-Mar-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKAB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKAB EXE 104 <057> 29-Jan-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKAC.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKAC EXE 140 <057> 17-Aug-88 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKAD.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKAD EXE 80 <057> 29-Jan-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKBA.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKBA EXE 176 <057> 3-Apr-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKBB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKBB EXE 56 <057> 3-Apr-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKCA.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKCA EXE 212 <057> 29-Jan-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKCB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKCB EXE 100 <057> 29-Jan-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKCC.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKCC EXE 96 <057> 4-Jun-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKDA.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKDA EXE 164 <057> 3-Apr-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKEA.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKEA EXE 76 <057> 18-Apr-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKEB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKEB EXE 60 <057> 3-Apr-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKEC.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKEC EXE 92 <057> 2-May-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKED.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKED EXE 100 <057> 3-May-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKFB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKFB EXE 56 <057> 29-Jan-85 ACPT40 CMD 2 <057> 30-Mar-94 PM CMD 1 <057> 24-Mar-93 PMDTE CMD 1 <057> 18-Jun-92 SYSDTE CMD 1 <057> 24-Mar-93 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]SYSEX.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) SYSEX EXE 136 <057> 30-Oct-94 FX BIN 51 <055> 21-Feb-97 Total of 3901 blocks in 33 files on 40FE: [1,340] Grand total of 9315 blocks in 48 files Unfortunately...no files are accessible and I get a BUGCHK whenever I boot TOPS-10 in KLH10...but this is finally some progress! .type 40fe:[1,340]pm.cmd ?Input device 40FE: file PM.CMD Status bits 400001 (Device write-locked or 7-9 punch not found on binary card) .copy pm.cmd=40fe:[1,340]pm.cmd ?Input device 40FE: file PM.CMD Status bits 400001 (Device write-locked or 7-9 punch not found on binary card) .copy dskb:[1,2]pm.cmd=40fe:[1,340]pm.cmd ?Input device 40FE: file PM.CMD Status bits 400001 (Device write-locked or 7-9 punch not found on binary card) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 14 19:32:17 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC-40 update Message-ID: Hey, I got a directory listing of the FE disk... .dir 40fe:[*,*,*,*,*] 1,1 1 <555> 8-Sep-95 40FE: [1,1] 1,4 1 <755> 8-Sep-95 3,3 0 <700> 8-Sep-95 1,2 1 <754> 8-Sep-95 3,6 0 <766> 8-Sep-95 3,11 0 <700> 8-Sep-95 3,7 0 <700> 8-Sep-95 1,340 1 <754> 31-Mar-97 Total of 4 blocks in 8 files on 40FE: [1,1] SAT SYS 109 <555> 8-Sep-95 [1,4] HOME SYS 19 <555> 8-Sep-95 BADBLK SYS 4 <557> 8-Sep-95 MARSFE SYS 5002 <057> 30-Jul-97 Total of 5134 blocks in 4 files on 40FE: [1,4] %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,2]RESTOR.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) RESTOR EXE 84 <057> 2-Nov-94 3A(52) [1,2] %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,2]FILSAV.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) FILSAV EXE 128 <666> 12-Sep-88 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,2]MSFILE.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) MSFILE EXE 64 <057> 7-Mar-94 12(24) Total of 276 blocks in 3 files on 40FE: [1,2] A OUT 506 <057> 29-Jan-96 [1,340] NCP MCS 217 <057> 13-Jan-95 SX BIN 73 <057> 30-Aug-94 SX MCS 27 <057> 12-Dec-93 FX OLD 51 <057> 21-Oct-94 N1LX 609 501 <057> 2-Mar-94 N1LX REL 20 <057> 1-Mar-94 N1LX ULD 502 <057> 30-Sep-94 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]BOOT40.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode ) BOOT40 EXE 24 <057> 10-Nov-94 25B(161) %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DEBKVB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode ) DEBKVB EXE 96 <057> 10-Nov-94 CPYFE COM 3 <057> 1-Apr-96 PINI40 CMD 1 <057> 2-Mar-94 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKAA.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKAA EXE 176 <057> 27-Mar-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKAB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKAB EXE 104 <057> 29-Jan-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKAC.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKAC EXE 140 <057> 17-Aug-88 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKAD.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKAD EXE 80 <057> 29-Jan-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKBA.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKBA EXE 176 <057> 3-Apr-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKBB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKBB EXE 56 <057> 3-Apr-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKCA.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKCA EXE 212 <057> 29-Jan-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKCB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKCB EXE 100 <057> 29-Jan-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKCC.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKCC EXE 96 <057> 4-Jun-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKDA.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKDA EXE 164 <057> 3-Apr-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKEA.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKEA EXE 76 <057> 18-Apr-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKEB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKEB EXE 60 <057> 3-Apr-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKEC.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKEC EXE 92 <057> 2-May-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKED.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKED EXE 100 <057> 3-May-85 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]DFKFB.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) DFKFB EXE 56 <057> 29-Jan-85 ACPT40 CMD 2 <057> 30-Mar-94 PM CMD 1 <057> 24-Mar-93 PMDTE CMD 1 <057> 18-Jun-92 SYSDTE CMD 1 <057> 24-Mar-93 %DRTIDE Error reading 40FE:[1,340]SYSEX.EXE; I/O status = 400014 (Improper mode) SYSEX EXE 136 <057> 30-Oct-94 FX BIN 51 <055> 21-Feb-97 Total of 3901 blocks in 33 files on 40FE: [1,340] Grand total of 9315 blocks in 48 files Unfortunately...no files are accessible and I get a BUGCHK whenever I boot TOPS-10 in KLH10...but this is finally some progress! .type 40fe:[1,340]pm.cmd ?Input device 40FE: file PM.CMD Status bits 400001 (Device write-locked or 7-9 punch not found on binary card) .copy pm.cmd=40fe:[1,340]pm.cmd ?Input device 40FE: file PM.CMD Status bits 400001 (Device write-locked or 7-9 punch not found on binary card) .copy dskb:[1,2]pm.cmd=40fe:[1,340]pm.cmd ?Input device 40FE: file PM.CMD Status bits 400001 (Device write-locked or 7-9 punch not found on binary card) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 19:36:29 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:36:29 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: <552DAB71.8020808@connorsdomain.com> References: <1C2BDE26-E5FC-4672-9A3D-F7602C3FF2D4@yahoo.com> <552D5BD4.8050201@bitsavers.org> <552DAB71.8020808@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: Earlier today I called and left a message about this machine, and will see what can be made of it. Apparently he is not much of an email person. -- Will On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Connor Krukosky wrote: > I emailed the guy and asked if he has gotten any people interested in it and > he said there isn't and he's going to scrap it soon. Though I'd let everyone > know, I'd love to get it myself but the time and money just isn't there... > I asked if it has been left out in the rain or not and got "Has been kept of > rain" in return. So take that as you will. > Hope someone can save this system, as it seems Burroughs systems don't pop > up often... > > -Connor K From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 14 22:49:50 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 22:49:50 -0500 Subject: Meaning of RD54 Beeps In-Reply-To: <00b101d07701$d64d7ee0$82e87ca0$@ntlworld.com> References: <005401d07690$c1af8c60$450ea520$@ntlworld.com> <552D3753.3060706@pico-systems.com> <00b101d07701$d64d7ee0$82e87ca0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <552DDFDE.2090803@pico-systems.com> On 04/14/2015 05:24 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Yes, I didn't mean to suggest it was a proper buzzer, so > it is the chirping sound you mention. I think it is the head > > Right, so it sounds like it is indeed a recalibration. I had wondered if it > was something to do with the drive getting up to speed, since I have > replaced the power transistors that drive the spindle. I suppose I am not > sure what kinds of errors would cause this to happen, but I am pretty sure > the read errors must be related. Perhaps I should format the drive in one of > my MicroVAX 2000 machines. > When the drive has just spun up, it may do a long sweep of the heads and make that sound. After that, any time the controller sends the reset command to the drive, it will run slowly from wherever it is to cylinder zero, so you may get another long recal sound. I seem to recall on the VAX you got two recal sounds when booting, once when you hit the reset button and the Q-bus got a reset signal, and once when Files-11 came up and reset all the drives. An occasional recal might not be too worrying, but if it does a lot of them it probably means lots of read errors are occurring. This should show up in the system logs. Generally, any time the drive can't read a sector header, or the header indicates it is on a different cylinder than expected, the controller will order a recalibrate. Those would be logged as a seek error. Jon From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 00:39:07 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 22:39:07 -0700 Subject: Looking for SMD drives (specific models) In-Reply-To: References: <552A2029.8040501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <552DF97B.8020100@gmail.com> On 4/13/15 10:20 AM, tony duell wrote: >> So I had the Ridge 32 running again (when I went to debug the -12V >> supply it had started working again, so I'll take that for now, I >> suppose). After running for an hour the SMD drive (a Fujitsu 2312) in >> it failed. At power up, the drive spins up and when it attempts to load >> the heads, there's a loud *clunk* and the drive then quickly spins >> down. (If anyone has any bright ideas, let me know...) > There is a Fujitsu 2312 service manual on bitsavers. According to that, once > the spindle is up to speed the heads should move in at high speed until > the outer guard band is detected, then slow down and end up locking on > cylinder 0. Sounds (!) as though your drive is running the heads at high speed > into the inner end stop, realising something is wrong, and shutting down. > > Apparently there are status LEDs on the drive, what do they show? I'll have to remove the drive and run it where I can observe them all. It'll be a few days, but I'll let you know. > > Since the drive doesn't make head-crash noises (does it?) it's entirely possible > the HDA is fine and the fault is on one of the PCBs. The drive doesn't appear to have crashed, aside from the clunk at load time it sounds fine (and sounded fine at the point it died). > Fujitsu used a number of > ASICs in these drives, but it appers there are still things you can check and > repair. I would start with the power amplifier that drives the positioner (voice > coil), check the transistors there first. Then see what the input to that stage is > doing when it attempts to load the heads (does it seem to be trying to ram > them into the end stop?) and work back from there. The drive has a transparent cover so I might actually be able to *watch* it happen, but it's a matter of getting the drive into a position where I can run it and observe... Thanks, Josh > > -tony > From drb at msu.edu Wed Apr 15 00:41:07 2015 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 01:41:07 -0400 Subject: Looking for SMD drives (specific models) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 14 Apr 2015 22:39:07 -0700.) <552DF97B.8020100@gmail.com> References: <552DF97B.8020100@gmail.com> <552A2029.8040501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150415054107.4556DA5850D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > At power up, the drive spins up and when it attempts to load > the heads, there's a loud *clunk* and the drive then quickly spins > down. You don't have a head lock pin installed because you moved it or something, do you? De From joerg.sigle at jsigle.com Tue Apr 14 19:23:48 2015 From: joerg.sigle at jsigle.com (Joerg M. Sigle) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 02:23:48 +0200 Subject: Looking for Sun 68k machines, from time to time... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <552DAF94.6010402@jsigle.com> Dear list It may sound odd (maybe less to you than to other people...) - but from time to time I get sad that I don't have any Sun 3 around here (and no DECstation either). I guess it's an attempt to preserve some of the past by preserving things that belonged to it. So, I was just wondering whether you might know anyone who would like to part with one of these. Preferrably in Europe, so that shipment would not be prohibitive - and preferrably something like a 3/80 or 3/60 with keyboard and mouse, trading of speed vs. occupied space. But actually, first of all I'm interested whether there are any of these still around in my region at all. Thanks a lot for any reply of yours in advance! And kind regards! Joerg -- http://www.jsigle.com Have a lovely day... From supervinx at libero.it Wed Apr 15 00:46:44 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:46:44 +0200 Subject: IBM 5120 Operator Training Manual - GA34-0132-1 Message-ID: <1429076804.2319.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Hi! Do you know if somehone has scanned this manual? A search gave no result... Thanks! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 15 03:37:15 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:37:15 +0100 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: <552D9857.1000809@update.uu.se> References: <20150414211618.8672618C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <552D9857.1000809@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <552E233B.30500@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/04/2015 23:44, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-04-14 23:16, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> (1: Note that the MSV11-JB and -JC variants don't do QBUS properly, >> and are >> PMI only, and so can't be used in an 11/83. I seem to recall hearing it's >> just QBUS block mode transfers that they don't do properly?) I can't remember where, but I've seen that documented. >> Which all does raise an interesting question: if an M8190 is in a >> system with >> a _mix_ of PMI and regular QBUS memory, do accesses to both memories work >> fine? (E.g. if it's in a Q/CD backplane with a PMI board before it, and a >> regular QBUS memory card after it.) > As far as I know/understand, this will work just fine if you put the > Qbus memory after the CPU and PMI memory before. I don't know what > happens in general if you put Qbus memory before the CPU. That is > another interesting question. Yes, it does work with PMI before, and QBus after, the CPU. Yes, QBus non-PMI memory does work (as QBus memory) if placed before the CPU. If you put both in front of the CPU, obviously you put the QBus memory higher up than the PMI memory, because it won't pass the PMI signals up the bus if you do it the other way round. In other words, the PMI memory must be the closest to the CPIU. Putting QBus memory (or anything else that doesn't use the grant lines) above the CPU is fine in a BA23 or BA123 system because the top three (BA23) or four (BA123) slots have all the signals the CPU might want, but in older systems there's a signal that only exists on slot 1: SRUN L, on pin AF1 which is otherwise designated SSPARE2 and isn't bussed. Lack of it in, say, slot 2, won't affect operation, but the RUN light won't work :-) So many of my backplanes have SRUN L connected to slot 2, in much the same way as one might wire-wrap BDAL18-21 to upgrade 18 bits to 22. It makes it handy to put the CPU in slot 2 and some other card in slot 1 for faultfinding. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 15 03:44:02 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:44:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM 5120 Operator Training Manual - GA34-0132-1 In-Reply-To: <1429076804.2319.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <1429076804.2319.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2015, supervinx wrote: > Do you know if somehone has scanned this manual? > A search gave no result... You're lucky! I've found this manual. I'll scan it. Christian From supervinx at libero.it Wed Apr 15 05:26:06 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 12:26:06 +0200 Subject: R: Re: IBM 5120 Operator Training Manual - GA34-0132-1 Message-ID: Great! -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: Christian Corti Data:15/04/2015 10:44 (GMT+01:00) A: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Oggetto: Re: IBM 5120 Operator Training Manual - GA34-0132-1 On Wed, 15 Apr 2015, supervinx wrote: > Do you know if somehone has scanned this manual? > A search gave no result... You're lucky! I've found this manual. I'll scan it. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 15 08:01:20 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 15:01:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM 5120 Operator Training Manual - GA34-0132-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2015, supervinx wrote: > You're lucky! I've found this manual. I'll scan it. As usual on our FTP server at /pub/cm/ibm/ibm5110/ files GA34-0130-1_IBM5120_GeneralInformationSitePrep_Mar1980.pdf and GA34-0132-1_IBM5120_OperatorTraining_Mar1980.pdf Christian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 15 09:04:36 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UK PDP11 wanted Message-ID: <20150415140436.2069A18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> {Replies to all three recent posts bundled together to reduce list traffic; hope that's OK...} > From: Glen Slick >> Actually, the PMI signals are all (I'm pretty sure, but have not >> checked) just like most other QBUS signals - 'broadcast' >> bi-directionally down a transmission line. > when PMI memory boards are installed above and adjacent to the M8190 > CPU the PMI signals are bused through one PMI memory board to the one > above and adjacent to it At a low level, yes; but I'm trying to understand PMI at a higher level - one that applies across _all_ backplanes, including the 11/84 backplane, which is a purer implementation of 'PMI is just another broadcast bus'. > From: Johnny Billquist >> PMI signals are all (I'm pretty sure, but have not checked) just like >> most other QBUS signals - 'broadcast' bi-directionally down a >> transmission line. I checked (Micronote #30, 11/84 Tech Manual) and this is basically correct; all the additional PMI signals are implemented as bi-directional transmission lines (although some are only used uni-directionally, e.g. PMAPE, PUBSYS, etc). The UNIBUS adapter does use the BDMG and BIACK lines, which are uni-directional grant lines, but they are both actually QBUS signals. > But because of the way the CD slots are wired, it cannot be a general > broadcast thing. Repeat previous reply to Glen... >> My impression is that the CPU does not get involved in DMA access to >> PMI memory. > This is one thing I'd like to check though. And I think this is my > point of worry... I couldn't find any 11/83 manuals online. There is a User Manual for the KDJ11-B, and it indicates (Section 1.6.1) that DMA devices can become QBUS masters and do any normal data transfer over the QBUS, which I take to mean that the CPU is not involved (other than to do the initial arbitration). Section 7.3 confirms this. >> I'm pretty sure that whether PMI memory works as PMI memory or QBUS >> memory depends only on what it hears on the busses, and nothing else. > The memory works as PMI or plan Qbus memory simply based on where it is > located in relationship to the CPU Again, that's looking at one special case (the Q/CD backplane); I'd rather look at PMI in a more general way. > From: Pete Turnbull > QBus non-PMI memory does work (as QBus memory) if placed before the CPU. That part I was pretty sure about (given the way the QBUS works). The part I didn't know was whether an M8190 would work correctly with a mix of PMI and non-PMI memory. I wonder what it does - does it start a PMI cycle, and then convert to a QBUS cycle when the PMI doesn't happen? Or does it somehow scan for both types during startup, and have some sort of configuration table that it relies on thereafter? I didn't see anything in either the KDJ11-B or KDJ11-E User Manual, and there is no KDJ11-x Tech Manual that I could find. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 15 09:08:59 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina Message-ID: <20150415140859.7A6AD18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Donzelli > will see what can be made of it. That is great to hear. This sounds like a machine that should be saved, but I can't really do anything myself (I think PDP-11's are my limit - my wife tolerates them, but if I started collecting mainframes... :-). If you need a hand in any way (I'm just across the state line in SE Virginia), e.g. for loading, temporary storage until you can arrange shipping, or whatever, please let me know. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 15 09:30:50 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:30:50 -0400 Subject: Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands In-Reply-To: <20150414211721.AF53918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150414211721.AF53918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6F5DF142-B9BD-43C8-B25F-336F4753ED39@comcast.net> > On Apr 14, 2015, at 5:17 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >>> One of the great Dutch achievements in computer science: > >> The correct description is "one of the great achievements in >> computer science". > > Take that set of things. There's a sub-set which are due to Dutch > people/institutions. That's what/all I meant. Yes, I agree with that. > >> From: Simon Claessen > >> I'm not THAT old... :-) > > What, you think I am? :-) It's called 'knowing your field's history', like > knowing what Bohr's atomic model was, if you're a physicist? Now I feel my age ? since the first programs I wrote ran on that system. Well, I was only barely a teenager, but still... paul From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Apr 15 10:03:35 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 17:03:35 +0200 Subject: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console In-Reply-To: References: <11DD8F72-479E-49DB-A26B-54EF0C46FFE3@comcast.net> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Paul Koning Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console > On Apr 14, 2015, at 3:47 PM, Henk Gooijen > wrote: > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Paul Koning > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 9:37 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console > > >> On Apr 14, 2015, at 3:20 PM, Henk Gooijen >> wrote: >> >> ... >> Yes, I am curious enough, however ... >> I have bought parts and documentation from this eBay seller (efi) before. >> My guess is that he might accept a $10 offer for this manual, but I >> cannot >> do that, because the additional international shipping costs are absurd. >> >> If somebody could do the offer of $10, and ship the manual to me in a >> letter, >> as a private person (instead of a company), I would pay all expenses and >> add some "beer" money. > > Instead of a company? Postage does not depend on who sends it. Books > used to be able to be shipped rather cheaply. If that is still true, it > would be true for any shipper. If the shipper claims his rates are higher > because he?s a company, you should take your business elsewhere. > > paul > > ---- Henk's reply > Hi Paul. > As a person you would ship this as a letter and be done with it. > However, (AFAIK), a company ships using standard priority rates, > and my impression is that that is a lot more. In the eBay listing it > shows that the shipping cost for these (guessing) 20 pages is > some $25. A person shipping 20 pages in a letter pays less ... or > are USPS rates rocketed sky high over the last year? According to usps.com, shipping an 8 ounce ?large letter? to the Netherlands costs $8.85 as a ?large envelope? (i.e., it?s letter size paper or somewhat larger, shipped flat). If the envelope is ?too rigid?, it would be a ?first class package? which costs $12.75. Yes, you can certainly send priority mail, and that will run you $25 or so for the same item, but that isn?t the lowest cost option. But there is no requirement to use priority mail, not for individuals, not for companies. paul Hi Paul, true, priority mail is not the cheapest option, but that's what most eBayer offer. - Henk From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Apr 15 10:11:33 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 17:11:33 +0200 Subject: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console In-Reply-To: References: <11DD8F72-479E-49DB-A26B-54EF0C46FFE3@comcast.net> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Glen Slick Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: looking for info of the DEC Remote Services Console Well someone just bought that EK-KCRSC-FS-001 manual not too long ago so hope it went to someone that can scan and share it. ---- Henk's reply I bought it :-) Paul Birkel is going to pick up the manual, and scan it. I get a scanned PDF, Paul gets the manual and bitsavers gets the PDF too! A win-win-win for everybody :-) greetz, - Henk From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Apr 15 11:44:34 2015 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 16:44:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: large lot of PC computer magazines period 1987-2000 available in Germany Message-ID: <1116382450.4343912.1429116274077.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi list, a friend of mine has for give-away a large lot of magazines from the years 1987 to 2000. They are mostly complete I was told. The magazines are "PC-Welt", "PC-Magazin" and "DOS". Located in the region called "Hochsauerlandkreis" Contact me off-list and I can give you the direct contact to him. Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 15 11:53:05 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 17:53:05 +0100 Subject: UK PDP11 wanted In-Reply-To: <20150415140436.2069A18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150415140436.2069A18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 15 Apr 2015, at 15:04, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I wonder what it does - does it start a PMI cycle, and then convert to a QBUS > cycle when the PMI doesn't happen? Or does it somehow scan for both types > during startup, and have some sort of configuration table that it relies on > thereafter? I didn't see anything in either the KDJ11-B or KDJ11-E User > Manual, and there is no KDJ11-x Tech Manual that I could find. There's a Maintenance Manual, though that doesn't say either. It is mentioned in one of the Micronotes, but more to the point, I've tried it in the past so I know it works - though not how. -- Pete Turnbull From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 12:32:36 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 13:32:36 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: <20150415140859.7A6AD18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150415140859.7A6AD18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > If you need a hand in any way (I'm just across the state line in SE Virginia), > e.g. for loading, temporary storage until you can arrange shipping, or > whatever, please let me know. If I get it, I will just drag it back. The printer may not go, if I have my choice, as apparently it has been wet. The system came from Johnson Air Force base, so the drives are probably long since shredded. Burroughs ain't get no love... -- Will From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Apr 15 13:12:20 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 18:12:20 +0000 Subject: SC-40 update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DD932F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Cory Smelosky Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 5:32 PM > I got a directory listing of the FE disk... > .dir 40fe:[*,*,*,*,*] > 1,1 1 <555> 8-Sep-95 40FE: [1,1] > 1,4 1 <755> 8-Sep-95 > 3,3 0 <700> 8-Sep-95 > 1,2 1 <754> 8-Sep-95 > 3,6 0 <766> 8-Sep-95 > 3,11 0 <700> 8-Sep-95 > 3,7 0 <700> 8-Sep-95 > 1,340 1 <754> 31-Mar-97 > Total of 4 blocks in 8 files on 40FE: [1,1] [snip snip snip] > Unfortunately...no files are accessible and I get a BUGCHK whenever I boot > TOPS-10 in KLH10...but this is finally some progress! > .type 40fe:[1,340]pm.cmd > ?Input device 40FE: file PM.CMD > Status bits 400001 > (Device write-locked or 7-9 punch not found on binary card) > .copy pm.cmd=40fe:[1,340]pm.cmd > ?Input device 40FE: file PM.CMD > Status bits 400001 > (Device write-locked or 7-9 punch not found on binary card) > .copy dskb:[1,2]pm.cmd=40fe:[1,340]pm.cmd > ?Input device 40FE: file PM.CMD > Status bits 400001 > (Device write-locked or 7-9 punch not found on binary card) Cory, It may be that CI$ defined some bits differently in their monitor. I strongly suggest that you examine the (emulated?) drive using FILDDT. Start by locating the HOM block (which might not be where DEC would put it; I vaguely remember a difference between Stanford and Mike&Stewart vis-a-vis TOPS-20 file systems). You can that with $"/HOM /$w or 505755,,0$w (equivalent invocations of the word-search function. "$" is altmode = escape, not dollar) Use the Tops-10 Monitor Calls Reference Manual vol. 2 from Bitsavers, to see the layout of a DEC HOM block (in the tables portion of the manual). Vol. 1 has a good discussion of going from [1,1] to a file in a directory, and the HOM block contains a pointer to [1,1]. What do you mean by "I get a BUGCHK whenever I boot TOPS-10 in KLH10"? I've done that any number of times, and never had a BUGCHK. What specifically is it doing? If you like, we can move the discussion to the SimH list (to include Tim Litt) or alt.sys.pdp10 (to include lots of other folks). Rich P. S. OBTW, congratulations!!! Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 15 13:31:22 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 14:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC-40 update In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DD932F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DD932F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: > > Cory, > > It may be that CI$ defined some bits differently in their monitor. I strongly > suggest that you examine the (emulated?) drive using FILDDT. Start by locating > the HOM block (which might not be where DEC would put it; I vaguely remember a > difference between Stanford and Mike&Stewart vis-a-vis TOPS-20 file systems). > You can that with > Could be, will look in a bit. Could also be an error in http://abuse.mooli.org.uk/compuserve/ (what a friend used to convert the 584-byte-sector drive to something usable in KLH10) I can copy all files in the first 132 blocks (not counting any metadata blocks) fine. That's HOM.SYS, BATBLK.SYS, and MARSFE.SYS. I'm not the greatest with the mathematics and whatnot - better at installing the OSes and getting everything wired together. ;) > $"/HOM /$w > or 505755,,0$w > > (equivalent invocations of the word-search function. "$" is altmode = escape, > not dollar) Thanks. > > Use the Tops-10 Monitor Calls Reference Manual vol. 2 from Bitsavers, to see > the layout of a DEC HOM block (in the tables portion of the manual). Vol. 1 > has a good discussion of going from [1,1] to a file in a directory, and the > HOM block contains a pointer to [1,1]. Hmmm. [1,1] is the ...what's the term... UFD? that I can access files from. > > What do you mean by "I get a BUGCHK whenever I boot TOPS-10 in KLH10"? I've > done that any number of times, and never had a BUGCHK. What specifically is > it doing? I figured out what that was, it's an issue with the file being larger than an actual rp06 disk image (truncating it, setting it to an rm05, > > If you like, we can move the discussion to the SimH list (to include Tim Litt) > or alt.sys.pdp10 (to include lots of other folks). > That would get a bit offtopic for SIMH as I'm using KLH10 for this (I've only gotten the image to be happy with fmt=dbd9, unsure if SIMH can do the same conversion but I will try shortly) No responses on alt.sys.pdp10, perhaps you can wake some people up? ;) > Rich > > P. S. OBTW, congratulations!!! Thanks! Oh, a heads up: the SC-40s you have can all run the newer supervisor (1.08 instead of 1.01. I found mine passed all diags after I imaged the newer drive...aside from the SC-40 Exerciser of course, that's still unhappy with my SCSI bus.) > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From shawn-gordon at cox.net Wed Apr 15 14:30:16 2015 From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 12:30:16 -0700 Subject: HP 3000 series 947 and HP 700/92 monitor for sale Message-ID: <552EBC48.6030309@cox.net> The monitor is in perfect condition other than some dust. The computer looks great, but there is something wrong with it, I don't know what. I don't have the exact specs here, but I'm getting married and would like to clear some stuff from the house. If someone is interested in one or both of these items for a modest price plus shipping, I'd like to hear from you. Thanks, Shawn From jim at deitygraveyard.com Wed Apr 15 14:36:33 2015 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 15:36:33 -0400 Subject: HP 3000 series 947 and HP 700/92 monitor for sale In-Reply-To: <552EBC48.6030309@cox.net> References: <552EBC48.6030309@cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Shawn Gordon wrote: > The monitor is in perfect condition other than some dust. The computer looks > great, but there is something wrong with it, I don't know what. I don't have > the exact specs here, but I'm getting married and would like to clear some > stuff from the house. If someone is interested in one or both of these items > for a modest price plus shipping, I'd like to hear from you. Location??? From shawn-gordon at cox.net Wed Apr 15 14:51:45 2015 From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 12:51:45 -0700 Subject: HP 3000 series 947 and HP 700/92 monitor for sale In-Reply-To: References: <552EBC48.6030309@cox.net> Message-ID: <552EC151.5080105@cox.net> southern california, near Irvine specifically. I can ship, but that will add to the cost for shipping supplies and the shipment. On 4/15/2015 12:36 PM, Jim Carpenter wrote: > On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Shawn Gordon wrote: > >> The monitor is in perfect condition other than some dust. The computer looks >> great, but there is something wrong with it, I don't know what. I don't have >> the exact specs here, but I'm getting married and would like to clear some >> stuff from the house. If someone is interested in one or both of these items >> for a modest price plus shipping, I'd like to hear from you. >> > > Location??? > > From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Apr 15 12:09:48 2015 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:09:48 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: References: <1C2BDE26-E5FC-4672-9A3D-F7602C3FF2D4@yahoo.com> <552D5BD4.8050201@bitsavers.org> <552DAB71.8020808@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <552E9B5C.4050101@snowmoose.com> Yes, I exchanged a bunch of e-mail with him, where we discussed how the people interested in the system weren't into talking on the phone. He had had 5 people contact him via e-mail at that point. I was in conference calls most of yesterday and couldn't get a chance to call until it was later than I feel comfortable calling. I was going to call today. Have you spoke with him yet, Will? alan On 4/14/15 5:36 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Earlier today I called and left a message about this machine, and will > see what can be made of it. > > Apparently he is not much of an email person. > > -- > Will > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Connor Krukosky > wrote: >> I emailed the guy and asked if he has gotten any people interested in it and >> he said there isn't and he's going to scrap it soon. Though I'd let everyone >> know, I'd love to get it myself but the time and money just isn't there... >> I asked if it has been left out in the rain or not and got "Has been kept of >> rain" in return. So take that as you will. >> Hope someone can save this system, as it seems Burroughs systems don't pop >> up often... >> >> -Connor K > From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Wed Apr 15 12:52:42 2015 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:52:42 -0600 Subject: HP-C product HP92453-01 version A.08.81 Message-ID: <0D993EC5CEDB4D2298F691B8E78E476B@RANGER1> I'm doing a little re-engineering. I'm looking for HP-C product HP92453-01 version A.08.81 I suspect it could have been on HPUX 10.20. Wondering if anyone may have access to something from back then and could check the version on the C compiler - just to verify what OS version. I can invest in an HP9000/712 system with 10.20 installed, but not sure about the C compiler that would come with it. Thanks, Keven Miller From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 15 14:23:40 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 14:23:40 -0500 Subject: HP-C product HP92453-01 version A.08.81 In-Reply-To: <0D993EC5CEDB4D2298F691B8E78E476B@RANGER1> References: <0D993EC5CEDB4D2298F691B8E78E476B@RANGER1> Message-ID: <000601d077b1$aed84470$0c88cd50$@classiccmp.org> Keven wrote... ---- I'm doing a little re-engineering. I'm looking for HP-C product HP92453-01 version A.08.81 I suspect it could have been on HPUX 10.20. Wondering if anyone may have access to something from back then and could check the version on the C compiler - just to verify what OS version. I can invest in an HP9000/712 system with 10.20 installed, but not sure about the C compiler that would come with it. ---- Back in that timeframe (10.20)... HP C for HP-UX was free. However, it was not full ansi C. If you wanted "HP ANSI C" that was a cost product. I did have HP ANSI C, glanceplus, mirrordisk/UX, DTCmanager/UX, unlimited HPUX license, and serviceguard/ux on DDS tapes (plus HPUX 10.20 on CD). They were "special" and did not require a key. However, I loaned those tapes & cd's to a listmember years ago and have never received them back. J From g-wright at att.net Wed Apr 15 19:44:28 2015 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 00:44:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 3000 series 947 and HP 700/92 monitor for sale In-Reply-To: <552EC151.5080105@cox.net> References: <552EC151.5080105@cox.net> Message-ID: <1667752416.1547868.1429145068600.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Is this the rx or sx?? One is a cube? rack mount, the other a tower style - Jerry On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 12:51 PM, Shawn Gordon wrote: southern california, near Irvine specifically. I can ship, but that will add to the cost for shipping supplies and the shipment. On 4/15/2015 12:36 PM, Jim Carpenter wrote: > On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Shawn Gordon? wrote: >? ? >> The monitor is in perfect condition other than some dust. The computer looks >> great, but there is something wrong with it, I don't know what. I don't have >> the exact specs here, but I'm getting married and would like to clear some >> stuff from the house. If someone is interested in one or both of these items >> for a modest price plus shipping, I'd like to hear from you. >>? ? ? > > Location??? > >? ? From shawn-gordon at cox.net Wed Apr 15 20:40:46 2015 From: shawn-gordon at cox.net (Shawn Gordon) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 18:40:46 -0700 Subject: HP 3000 series 947 and HP 700/92 monitor for sale In-Reply-To: References: <552EC151.5080105@cox.net> Message-ID: <552F131E.8030905@cox.net> tower style On 4/15/2015 5:44 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: > Is this the rx or sx One is a cube rack mount, the other a tower style > - Jerry > > > On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 12:51 PM, Shawn Gordon wrote: > > > southern california, near Irvine specifically. I can ship, but that will > add to the cost for shipping supplies and the shipment. > > On 4/15/2015 12:36 PM, Jim Carpenter wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Shawn Gordon wrote: >> >> >>> The monitor is in perfect condition other than some dust. The computer looks >>> great, but there is something wrong with it, I don't know what. I don't have >>> the exact specs here, but I'm getting married and would like to clear some >>> stuff from the house. If someone is interested in one or both of these items >>> for a modest price plus shipping, I'd like to hear from you. >>> >>> >> Location??? >> >> >> > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 15 21:51:55 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 22:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage PDP-8 manuals on eBay Message-ID: <20150416025155.2E4DB18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This person: http://www.ebay.com/sch/recollect74/m.html is selling a bunch of vintage PDP-8 manuals for low starting bids. Noel From jws at jwsss.com Wed Apr 15 23:06:22 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 21:06:22 -0700 Subject: Adafruit EGA (I think) from arduino Message-ID: <552F353E.6090506@jwsss.com> I think what they are doing here is driving an EGA monitor in CGA mode with an arduino. That seems to be a handy thing to have in an old computer bag of tricks. i'd also like to have a circuit to grab semi static video off of CGA or EGA ports into Arduino. I'll post another bit with a sync generator shield for Arduino for that purpose. You may need to be on Google plus to get the following. I'll post the text below the Adafruit link which is mentioned in the post. https://plus.google.com/+adafruit/posts/fWau8XPRpWo *CGA Output to IBM Enhanced Color Display from Teensy 3.1* https://blog.adafruit.com/2015/04/14/cga-output-to-ibm-enhanced-color-display-from-teensy-3-1/ Benjamin Gould made this cool project with his CGA monitor using Teensy via paradigm lift /A while back, while hunting for an IBM PC AT Model F keyboard, I came across a Craigslist ad that said something like ?IBM Model 570 computer for sale with monitor and keyboard, $50?. I realized that it was probably a typo and that they meant Model 5170, which was the IBM PC AT. To make a short boring story shorter, the keyboard with the system was a 1986 Model M instead of Model F, but by itself was worth more than $50 anyhow so I lugged the whole thing home and sold the keyboard to cover the cost. I set the PC and monitor aside for a while until I became curious if you could drive the monitor with a microcontroller, and I came across this post on //hackaday.com //./ /Research/ /The aforementioned post featured a project by a hacker who was able to get a signal from his Arduino Uno to show up on a CGA monitor. His demonstration only had horizontal lines, which is much easier than sending individual pixels. Still, his proof of concept project was very encouraging and gave me a great jumpstart on the timing calculations that I would need. Here?s some quick notes regarding the scanning:/ /? The pixel clock for CGA was 14.31818 MHz. Take the reciprocal of that i number (1/14318180) to find that it takes about 0.06984 microseconds (?s)./ /? CRT display has electron emitting beams that are rapidly moved across a phosphor screen to create an image. At the end of each line the beams are turned off as they move back to left side of the screen and down 1 pixel. After the last visible horizontal scan line they are also turned off long enough for the beams to retrace vertically./ /? In between each horizontal and vertical scan, a synchronization signal is emitted as well. For CGA, there are dedicated HSYNC and VSYNC lines that carry these signals./ From jws at jwsss.com Wed Apr 15 23:22:13 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 21:22:13 -0700 Subject: Video grabber, for NTSC type video signals Message-ID: <552F38F5.5090303@jwsss.com> The heart of this is a sync chip. I'm wondering if someone has any ideas about perhaps using such to grab the video from IBM Mono, CGA, EGA or the sun mono type video monitors to name a few. I would love to be able to have a device which grabs these video frames, and converts them for graphic display or capture, rather than having to have a physical monitor around for each of these. This is a fairly economical board, and would be easy to justify using it with any system to convert the video, as well for a bench device. Any suggestions for a way to convert these to VGA, or even better where things seem to be going for DVI would be useful. thanks Jim Nootropicdesign Video Experimenter. http://nootropicdesign.com/ve/ From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Apr 15 22:27:09 2015 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 20:27:09 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: References: <20150415140859.7A6AD18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <552F2C0D.1090807@snowmoose.com> On 4/15/15 10:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> If you need a hand in any way (I'm just across the state line in SE Virginia), >> e.g. for loading, temporary storage until you can arrange shipping, or >> whatever, please let me know. > If I get it, I will just drag it back. The printer may not go, if I > have my choice, as apparently it has been wet. The system came from > Johnson Air Force base, so the drives are probably long since > shredded. > > Burroughs ain't get no love... > If you don't get it, let me (and the seller) know. I have been looking for a B19xx for almost 20 years. alan From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Apr 15 22:27:55 2015 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 20:27:55 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: <552F2C0D.1090807@snowmoose.com> References: <20150415140859.7A6AD18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <552F2C0D.1090807@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <552F2C3B.8010104@snowmoose.com> On 4/15/15 8:27 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > On 4/15/15 10:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> If you need a hand in any way (I'm just across the state line in SE >>> Virginia), >>> e.g. for loading, temporary storage until you can arrange shipping, or >>> whatever, please let me know. >> If I get it, I will just drag it back. The printer may not go, if I >> have my choice, as apparently it has been wet. The system came from >> Johnson Air Force base, so the drives are probably long since >> shredded. >> >> Burroughs ain't get no love... >> > If you don't get it, let me (and the seller) know. I have been looking > for a B19xx for almost 20 years. That is, let the seller know that I want it ... > > alan > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 22:39:55 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 23:39:55 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: <552F2C0D.1090807@snowmoose.com> References: <20150415140859.7A6AD18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <552F2C0D.1090807@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Are you confident that you could go get it? If so, I can pass it to you. I have fairly large B1955 already, and I will be damned if a Burroughs gets scrapped on my watch. -- Will On Apr 15, 2015 11:27 PM, "Alan Perry" wrote: > On 4/15/15 10:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> If you need a hand in any way (I'm just across the state line in SE >>> Virginia), >>> e.g. for loading, temporary storage until you can arrange shipping, or >>> whatever, please let me know. >>> >> If I get it, I will just drag it back. The printer may not go, if I >> have my choice, as apparently it has been wet. The system came from >> Johnson Air Force base, so the drives are probably long since >> shredded. >> >> Burroughs ain't get no love... >> >> If you don't get it, let me (and the seller) know. I have been looking > for a B19xx for almost 20 years. > > alan > > From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Thu Apr 16 08:12:48 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 09:12:48 -0400 Subject: Video grabber, for NTSC type video signals In-Reply-To: <552F38F5.5090303@jwsss.com> References: <552F38F5.5090303@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <552FB550.9060207@verizon.net> On 4/16/2015 12:22 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > The heart of this is a sync chip. I'm wondering if someone has any > ideas about perhaps using such to grab the video from IBM Mono, CGA, > EGA or the sun mono type video monitors to name a few. > > I would love to be able to have a device which grabs these video > frames, and converts them for graphic display or capture, rather than > having to have a physical monitor around for each of these. > > This is a fairly economical board, and would be easy to justify using > it with any system to convert the video, as well for a bench device. > > Any suggestions for a way to convert these to VGA, or even better > where things seem to be going for DVI would be useful. > > thanks > Jim > > Nootropicdesign Video Experimenter. > > http://nootropicdesign.com/ve/ > > > > > There is a company, Epiphan, that sells VGA2USB devices for just such a thing. New, they are quite expensive, so I took a chance and purchased a used one off ebay to see how it works. I also would like to capture the video signal that is going to the monitor. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 16 11:58:29 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 11:58:29 -0500 Subject: Video grabber, for NTSC type video signals In-Reply-To: <552FB550.9060207@verizon.net> References: <552F38F5.5090303@jwsss.com> <552FB550.9060207@verizon.net> Message-ID: At 08:12 AM 4/16/2015, Douglas Taylor wrote: >There is a company, Epiphan, that sells VGA2USB devices for just such a thing. New, they are quite expensive, so I took a chance and purchased a used one off ebay to see how it works. I also would like to capture the video signal that is going to the monitor. http://www.epiphan.com/products/vga2usb/ US $299. An ideal device, I'd say, would capture all those antiquated video formats, then process the data so it appears as it did on typical glass monitors for the movie-file output. For NTSC I always relied on the Sony DVMC-DA2 media converter. NTSC <-> Firewire. Composite, S-video, stereo, in-out. - John From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 16 12:58:54 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 10:58:54 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: References: <20150415140859.7A6AD18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <552F2C0D.1090807@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <552FF85E.1030302@bitsavers.org> On 4/15/15 8:39 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Are you confident that you could go get it? If so, I can pass it to you. I > have fairly large B1955 already, and I will be damned if a Burroughs gets > scrapped on my watch. > We should work out something to get all the B195x parts I have to you. I picked them up from the last guy who was servicing them, based out of Nashville in the mid 2000's From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 17:37:30 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:37:30 -0500 Subject: New DEC Docs Uploaded Message-ID: I have scanned some docs today which don't appear to be in any known collections. There are two PDP-11 Loader Listings from 1975 and the engineering drawings for the LT33, DEC's rebadging (and modification?) of the Teletype Model 33. Those can be found here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/DEC Included with the LT33 packet was Teletype's set of wiring diagrams for the Model 33 with Private Line. Their number for the set is WDP 0033. There are other examples of this set out there but mine looked slightly different, so I went ahead and scanned it: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Teletype Feel free to add them to your own sites/collections. In my searches I ran across this site: http://www.navy-radio.com/tty/tty-wd-list.htm Loads of Teletype docs there. These docs came with the 11/05 I picked up last year. Unfortunately, there was no sign of the LT33 unit. The docs above are free-for-shipping to anyone who'd like the originals. They're in very good shape, just unstapled for scanning. I'm in 60070 ZIP. -j From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Apr 16 19:02:38 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 00:02:38 +0000 Subject: SC-40 update In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DD932F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDA965@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Cory Smelosky Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 11:31 AM > On Wed, 15 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Use the Tops-10 Monitor Calls Reference Manual vol. 2 from Bitsavers, to see >> the layout of a DEC HOM block (in the tables portion of the manual). Vol. 1 >> has a good discussion of going from [1,1] to a file in a directory, and the >> HOM block contains a pointer to [1,1]. > Hmmm. [1,1] is the ...what's the term... UFD? that I can access files > from. MFD (Master File Directory). It's not quite the same internally as a User File Directory. Also found in the tables, come to think of it. > I figured out what that was, it's an issue with the file being larger than > an actual rp06 disk image (truncating it, setting it to an rm05, Umm, isn't an RM05 300MB vs. 200MB for an RP06 (real unformatted capacities)? >> If you like, we can move the discussion to the SimH list (to include Tim >> Litt) or alt.sys.pdp10 (to include lots of other folks). > That would get a bit offtopic for SIMH as I'm using KLH10 for this (I've > only gotten the image to be happy with fmt=dbd9, unsure if SIMH can do the > same conversion but I will try shortly) SimH only knows one disk format, the one that KLH10 calls "dlw8" (little- endian, 1 word in 8 bytes). > No responses on alt.sys.pdp10, perhaps you can wake some people up? ;) I'll rattle the cage. > Oh, a heads up: the SC-40s you have can all run the newer supervisor (1.08 > instead of 1.01. I found mine passed all diags after I imaged the newer > drive...aside from the SC-40 Exerciser of course, that's still unhappy > with my SCSI bus.) OK, thanks! Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 16 19:11:10 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 20:11:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC-40 update In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDA965@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DD932F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDA965@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: > > MFD (Master File Directory). It's not quite the same internally as a User > File Directory. Also found in the tables, come to think of it. > Ahh. Thanks. I assume you want me to look at FILDDT on the images copied to a TOPS-10 system, correct, or is there a quick shortcut to FILDDT for a device? > > Umm, isn't an RM05 300MB vs. 200MB for an RP06 (real unformatted capacities)? > Yes, the disk image was 245M, identifies as an rp06 to the monitor (discovered through RECOGNIZE in OPR) which explains the BUGHLT. According to du -sh it seems not much beyond the first 20M or so is anything but blank. > > SimH only knows one disk format, the one that KLH10 calls "dlw8" (little- > endian, 1 word in 8 bytes). > Thanks - that's a useful pointer. >> No responses on alt.sys.pdp10, perhaps you can wake some people up? ;) > > I'll rattle the cage. > Thanks. > > OK, thanks! > No problem. Happen to have any idea how to boot one from tape? Copy a DEC bootstrap to the MSP disk and pray it considers one of the SCSI drives as a supported drive? > Rich > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 16 19:19:27 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:19:27 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: References: <20150415140859.7A6AD18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <552F2C0D.1090807@snowmoose.com> <552FF85E.1030302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5530518F.9050301@bitsavers.org> On 4/16/15 4:50 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > How much stuff is there? > It could fill your trailer. I'll have a better idea when it's all moved from San Carlos to Fremont Mostly boards, cables, disk packs. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 18:50:53 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 19:50:53 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina In-Reply-To: <552FF85E.1030302@bitsavers.org> References: <20150415140859.7A6AD18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <552F2C0D.1090807@snowmoose.com> <552FF85E.1030302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: How much stuff is there? I am rescheduling my roadtrip you way for May/June. -- Will On Apr 16, 2015 1:59 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > On 4/15/15 8:39 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Are you confident that you could go get it? If so, I can pass it to you. I >> have fairly large B1955 already, and I will be damned if a Burroughs gets >> scrapped on my watch. >> >> > We should work out something to get all the B195x parts I have to you. I > picked them > up from the last guy who was servicing them, based out of Nashville in the > mid 2000's > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 17 09:06:05 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 15:06:05 +0100 Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU Message-ID: <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> One of my DECserver 90M PSUs got dropped and stopped working as a result, possibly because it got pulled by the cable. That sounds like the kind of damage that might be repairable. I tried to open the enclosure and I found a hole under one of the labels, expecting it to be a screw hole, but it isn't. I am guessing you just have to pry the halves apart, but without knowing where the clips are inside it is easy just to break the thing. Does anyone know how you open these PSUs? Thanks Rob PS Yes I know these PSUs are notoriously unreliable, and that you can make a PSU with a DIN plug and a wall wart, but I would still like the original to work if possible. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Apr 17 10:18:45 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:18:45 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 17 Apr 2015 15:06:05 +0100" <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01PKX8TM6P500079Z5@beyondthepale.ie> Robert Jarratt wrote: > > One of my DECserver 90M PSUs got dropped and stopped working as a result, > possibly because it got pulled by the cable. That sounds like the kind of > damage that might be repairable. I tried to open the enclosure and I found a > hole under one of the labels, expecting it to be a screw hole, but it isn't. > I am guessing you just have to pry the halves apart, but without knowing > where the clips are inside it is easy just to break the thing. > > > > Does anyone know how you open these PSUs? > As far as I recall, there are no clips - it is glued all the way around. Mine (actaully a 90TL, with H7082-AB PSU) failed too. Using a lot of patience, I pried it open without too much damage, fixed it (a capacitor in the startup circuit IIRC) and glued it back together. The end result was only slightly rough looking and would probably have been better with a more suitable glue. The thing has a very Lego-like quality about it. It failed again some time later and I haven't had the enthusiasm to break it open again since. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 13:05:48 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:05:48 -0500 Subject: New DEC Docs Uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Jason T wrote: > The docs above are free-for-shipping to anyone who'd like the > originals. They're in very good shape, just unstapled for scanning. > I'm in 60070 ZIP. Paper copies are claimed, thanks! -j From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 17 13:24:21 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 18:24:21 +0000 Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: <01PKX8TM6P500079Z5@beyondthepale.ie> References: "Your message dated Fri, 17 Apr 2015 15:06:05 +0100" <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com>, <01PKX8TM6P500079Z5@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > > As far as I recall, there are no clips - it is glued all the way around. Brilliant. Do I _HATE_ things that are deliberately hard to repair > It failed again some time later and I haven't had the enthusiasm to break it > open again since. In many case it's possible to modify the design so that it is held together with screws. If you do this, make sure there's no way the new screws could become live if something comes loose inside (perhaps use nylon screws, or thead them into plastic rods joining the 2 parts of the case). It makes future repairs a lot easier. -tony From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Apr 17 19:19:39 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 00:19:39 +0000 Subject: SC-40 update In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DD932F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDA965@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDB409@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Cory Smelosky Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 5:11 PM > On Fri, 17 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: >> MFD (Master File Directory). It's not quite the same internally as a User >> File Directory. Also found in the tables, come to think of it. > I assume you want me to look at FILDDT on the images copied to a TOPS-10 > system, correct, or is there a quick shortcut to FILDDT for a device? Device-direct I/O is available under FILDDT. Do it from the console login so that you're properly 1,2. If you run FILDDT and type /H to its prompt, you will see what the options are. Basically, you want something like RPA0:/U to start, and remember to multiply every sector number by 200 (octal) to get the disk address right. The HOM blocks are sectors 1 and 12, so their addresses are 200 and 2400 respectively. > Happen to have any idea how to boot one from tape? Copy a DEC bootstrap > to the MSP disk and pray it considers one of the SCSI drives as a > supported drive? Since DEC never supported SCSI hardware (that was done independently by SC and XKL at different times for different hardware), that's never going to work. I don't have an SC install manual, so I can't begin to guess how to boot from tape. Sorry. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 17 19:23:33 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 20:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC-40 update In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDB409@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DD932F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDA965@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDB409@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: >> I assume you want me to look at FILDDT on the images copied to a TOPS-10 >> system, correct, or is there a quick shortcut to FILDDT for a device? > > Device-direct I/O is available under FILDDT. Do it from the console login so > that you're properly 1,2. If you run FILDDT and type /H to its prompt, you > will see what the options are. Basically, you want something like RPA0:/U to > start, and remember to multiply every sector number by 200 (octal) to get the > disk address right. The HOM blocks are sectors 1 and 12, so their addresses > are 200 and 2400 respectively. > Ahhhhh, thanks a lot! That's a MAJOR help! >> Happen to have any idea how to boot one from tape? Copy a DEC bootstrap >> to the MSP disk and pray it considers one of the SCSI drives as a >> supported drive? > > Since DEC never supported SCSI hardware (that was done independently by SC and > XKL at different times for different hardware), that's never going to work. > I've heard (from Peter Lthberg that they're emulated (in certain situations?) as massbus disks. > I don't have an SC install manual, so I can't begin to guess how to boot from > tape. Sorry. > Alright, thanks. I have something much more helpful right now. ;) CompuServe KHK296 (built 2:19:37 PM Wednesday, January 22, 2003 in [340,105] Let's hope there's sources in [340,105]! > Rich > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Apr 17 20:36:30 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 01:36:30 +0000 Subject: SC-40 update In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DD932F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDA965@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDB409@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDB4C7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Cory Smelosky Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 5:24 PM On Sat, 18 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> Happen to have any idea how to boot one from tape? Copy a DEC bootstrap >>> to the MSP disk and pray it considers one of the SCSI drives as a >>> supported drive? >> Since DEC never supported SCSI hardware (that was done independently by SC and >> XKL at different times for different hardware), that's never going to work. > I've heard (from Peter Lthberg that they're emulated (in certain situations?) > as massbus disks. I was wrong about SC, BTW. That work was done internally at CI$. (I was told this by the gent who oversaw the conversion from KLs to 40s.) Whether they emulate Massbus at some point, I cannot say. If Peter is talking about XKL, I'm sorry but he's dead wrong. I can say that with complete certainty since I worked for XKL when the Toad-1 was built, did some of the monitor development myself, and have managed Toad systems as part of my daily living for the last 20 years. The SCSI interface created by XKL (specifically by Dr. Wayne Lichtenberger, of Illiac and AlohaNet and Cisco's CSC-3 processor board fame) is sui generis, and the code for it in TOPS-20 is likewise. Rich P.S. Peter is an old friend. Say hello for me next time you talk to him. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 17 20:42:58 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 21:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC-40 update In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDB4C7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DD932F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDA965@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDB409@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDB4C7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: >> I've heard (from Peter Lthberg that they're emulated (in certain situations?) >> as massbus disks. > > I was wrong about SC, BTW. That work was done internally at CI$. (I was told > this by the gent who oversaw the conversion from KLs to 40s.) Whether they > emulate Massbus at some point, I cannot say. > Ahhhh. I see "RH" all over the place...so it's plausible. > If Peter is talking about XKL, I'm sorry but he's dead wrong. I can say that > with complete certainty since I worked for XKL when the Toad-1 was built, did > some of the monitor development myself, and have managed Toad systems as part > of my daily living for the last 20 years. The SCSI interface created by XKL > (specifically by Dr. Wayne Lichtenberger, of Illiac and AlohaNet and Cisco's > CSC-3 processor board fame) is sui generis, and the code for it in TOPS-20 is > likewise. He was talking about SC. > > Rich > > P.S. Peter is an old friend. Say hello for me next time you talk to him. > Will do - he's the only one I know who understands the SC-40. ;) > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 17 23:54:52 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 21:54:52 -0700 Subject: Tapes for Bruker Aspect 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Al I have a number of tapes that are for the Bruker Aspect 2000. They include the OS called ADAKOS. Originally, I had thought these might be Nicolet 1080 tapes but the format was different. I didn't recognize it. I've since found that they are for the Bruker 2000 ( a 24 bit computer, loosely based on the 1080 computer ). I have no need for the tapes ( punch ) and only want to keep the tape tray. There are 12 tapes in a 8 slot tray. One of the tapes is TECO but most of the others are instrument or system test of some sort. I'd like to pass them to your archive ( not sure there is much demand for these but you never know ). Can you let me know when you might be at the CHM so I can stop by and drop them off. Dwight From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 17 15:54:05 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? Message-ID: Hey, I have some of the CompuServe drives I'm trying to get the MONITOR to boot off of ... but I want an image. So far I have tried: 1). VAXstation 4000/60 2). Ultra 1 3). PC (with Qlogic and Advansys controller) It sees no drive regardless of termination settings, position on the bus, or controller. On the VAX and Sun connecting the drive causes every other drive to no longer show up on the bus + the recently connected one. Drives: ST34573WD ST32550ND Any ideas? I suppose it's possible that 5 drives all spin but are actually bad... -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 18 01:42:05 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 02:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 2015, Cory Smelosky wrote: ...or it could be that the drives are definitely HVD and none of my controllers actually are - even the buggy one that claims it might be! -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 18 01:42:05 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 02:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 2015, Cory Smelosky wrote: ...or it could be that the drives are definitely HVD and none of my controllers actually are - even the buggy one that claims it might be! -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 01:50:18 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 00:50:18 -0600 Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 12:42 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > ...or it could be that the drives are definitely HVD and none of my > controllers actually are - even the buggy one that claims it might be! My fuzzy recollections are that ND is 8-bit single-ended, and WD is 16-bit "ultra" (low voltage differential). LVD drives usually (perhaps always?) can fall back to single-ended operation. Single-ended drives won't do any form of differential under any circumstances. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 01:55:24 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 00:55:24 -0600 Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My memory is probably faulty about exactly what the WD suffix means. I still think it's 16-bit "ultra" (1), but Wikipedia says that ultra (1) is single-ended or HVD, ultra 2 is LVD or HVD, and ultra 3, 320, and 640 are LVD only. From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 18 02:21:11 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 03:21:11 -0400 Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> The manual did confirm WD is definitely HVD which explains my issues. I recall some sort of Ultra bit in it as well. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2015, at 02:55, Eric Smith wrote: > > My memory is probably faulty about exactly what the WD suffix means. I > still think it's 16-bit "ultra" (1), but Wikipedia says that ultra (1) > is single-ended or HVD, ultra 2 is LVD or HVD, and ultra 3, 320, and > 640 are LVD only. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Apr 18 02:48:35 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 02:48:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Apr 2015, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> On Apr 18, 2015, at 02:55, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> My memory is probably faulty about exactly what the WD suffix means. I >> still think it's 16-bit "ultra" (1), but Wikipedia says that ultra (1) >> is single-ended or HVD, ultra 2 is LVD or HVD, and ultra 3, 320, and >> 640 are LVD only. > > The manual did confirm WD is definitely HVD which explains my issues. > > I recall some sort of Ultra bit in it as well. I was writing this when you sent the above reply ;) > ST34573WD > ST32550ND W -- wide N -- narrow WD -- wide differential ND -- narrow differential You'll need a converter. These type of differential drives can't be connected directly to a single ended bus, wide or narrow. If you do, you are connecting one side of the differential pair to ground, and these drives don't like that. There are also signal differences, see the pinouts for wide and wide differential and look at the pin numbers for attention, busy, ack, reset, etc. Later LVD devices could detect which sort of bus they were connected to, but these drives can't. From martin at shackspace.de Sat Apr 18 05:14:51 2015 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 12:14:51 +0200 Subject: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A Message-ID: <20150418101451.GA2066@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Hello! The EPROMs are labeled 07595-18045 and 07595-18046. We suspect some bits have toggled. Can anyone do a dump for me? It's for the 7596A of our local hackerspace. Greets, Martin -- Martin Peters martin.peters at news.uni-stuttgart.de From lproven at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 08:47:44 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 15:47:44 +0200 Subject: This may be the most impressive demo I've ever seen. In-Reply-To: <20150413194519.F356818C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150413194519.F356818C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 13 April 2015 at 21:45, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Liam Proven > > Re: your subject: line: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos > > :-) :-D Yes, all right, fair point. Slightly different usage of the word "demo" but fair play. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 18 11:21:43 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 12:21:43 -0400 Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> Message-ID: <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2015, at 03:48, Tothwolf wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Apr 2015, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> On Apr 18, 2015, at 02:55, Eric Smith wrote: >>> >>> My memory is probably faulty about exactly what the WD suffix means. I still think it's 16-bit "ultra" (1), but Wikipedia says that ultra (1) is single-ended or HVD, ultra 2 is LVD or HVD, and ultra 3, 320, and 640 are LVD only. >> >> The manual did confirm WD is definitely HVD which explains my issues. >> >> I recall some sort of Ultra bit in it as well. > > I was writing this when you sent the above reply ;) > >> ST34573WD >> ST32550ND > > W -- wide > N -- narrow > WD -- wide differential > ND -- narrow differential > > You'll need a converter. These type of differential drives can't be connected directly to a single ended bus, wide or narrow. If you do, you are connecting one side of the differential pair to ground, and these drives don't like that. There are also signal differences, see the pinouts for wide and wide differential and look at the pin numbers for attention, busy, ack, reset, etc. Later LVD devices could detect which sort of bus they were connected to, but these drives can't. Or I can order an HVD card as all of my cards are bad anyway. Happen to have recommendations for an converter? I don't have a massive surplus of HVD drives so I'll need 1 of those as well. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 12:06:57 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 12:06:57 -0500 Subject: those moments when out urban exploring and i wana scream Message-ID: out exploring the rements of a paper mill 20 yrs in the making... mess i stumbled upone this sad iritating site one crushed smashed up pdp8i in the yard of burnt trashed industrial junk wasteland https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/sets/72157651577592077/ From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 18 14:48:50 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 15:48:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SCSI Terminal Server question Message-ID: Hey, I have a Digi STS 1032 SCSI terminal server here, thought I'd ask if anyone knows before I pull out the multimeter and fight with using a magnifier to count the pins and measure. 50-pin external SCSI, anyone know if this is an HVD SCSI device? -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 18 18:44:36 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 16:44:36 -0700 Subject: Another mystery head quiz Message-ID: <5532EC64.3080708@sydex.com> I was goofing around with an old digicam (Fuji MX700)and wondered if I could stick it on the eyepiece of my old B&L Stereozoom inspection microscope. Aside from the obvious problem of using LEDs for illumination, it looks like it works. Maybe it's not time to toss the old camera. (FWIW, the illumination is a freebie 9-LED flashlight, which just happens to fit the scope stand--I run it from a old 4.5V cellphone charger. At any rate, who can identify the head in this photo: http://i.imgur.com/mN9v33b.jpg I'm pretty certain that I know. It's about 16mm square and is mounted on a small PCB with lead connections. --Chuck From pye at mactec.com.au Sat Apr 18 19:21:27 2015 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 00:21:27 +0000 Subject: those moments when out urban exploring and i wana scream In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31B4064A-2DCC-42E5-A2AD-7E06AFBDC04B@mactec.com.au> On 19 Apr 2015, at 3:06 am, Adrian Stoness wrote: > out exploring the rements of a paper mill 20 yrs in the making... mess i > stumbled upone this sad iritating site > one crushed smashed up pdp8i in the yard of burnt trashed industrial junk > wasteland > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/sets/72157651577592077/ Well at least you got a few spare switches.. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 21:11:20 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 21:11:20 -0500 Subject: those moments when out urban exploring and i wana scream In-Reply-To: <31B4064A-2DCC-42E5-A2AD-7E06AFBDC04B@mactec.com.au> References: <31B4064A-2DCC-42E5-A2AD-7E06AFBDC04B@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: i looked into the 8i and relized i left a peac of core memory laying on the ground im going back tomarrow to get everything els On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > > On 19 Apr 2015, at 3:06 am, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > out exploring the rements of a paper mill 20 yrs in the making... mess i > > stumbled upone this sad iritating site > > one crushed smashed up pdp8i in the yard of burnt trashed industrial junk > > wasteland > > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/sets/72157651577592077/ > > > Well at least you got a few spare switches.. > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sun Apr 19 01:47:33 2015 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 06:47:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What are the switches on the grey panel of decdatasystem/business cabinets used for? Message-ID: <858570978.7303746.1429426053281.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hello list, while surfing for PDP-11 information yesterday, I came across pictures of a dec data system cabinet with the vertical grey panels, one of them having three distinct switches. https://www.flickr.com/photos/8061522 at N07/3793505025/ So far, I couldn't find any hints on the web to figure out what they're used for. They only seem to exist on those larger business cabinets as far as I could see. Does anybody of you know about their functions? Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Apr 19 05:04:05 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 12:04:05 +0200 Subject: What are the switches on the grey panel of decdatasystem/business cabinets used for? In-Reply-To: <858570978.7303746.1429426053281.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <858570978.7303746.1429426053281.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55337D95.1020802@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-19 08:47, P Gebhardt wrote: > Hello list, > > while surfing for PDP-11 information yesterday, I came across pictures of a dec data system cabinet > with the vertical grey panels, one of them having three distinct switches. > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/8061522 at N07/3793505025/ Seems I can't see any pictures unless I sign up... :-( > So far, I couldn't find any hints on the web to figure out what they're used for. > They only seem to exist on those larger business cabinets as far as I could see. > > Does anybody of you know about their functions? I suspect what you are seeing are the switches that are hooked to the M9312. One switch is for selecting if you want automatic boot on power on, one switch is a plain boot switch, and I can't remember what the third does. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 10:02:55 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 10:02:55 -0500 Subject: What are the switches on the grey panel of decdatasystem/business cabinets used for? In-Reply-To: <55337D95.1020802@update.uu.se> References: <858570978.7303746.1429426053281.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55337D95.1020802@update.uu.se> Message-ID: ones power on off ones initalize unlock and lock https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3584/3793505025_e30b13480f_o.jpg On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:04 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-04-19 08:47, P Gebhardt wrote: > >> Hello list, >> >> while surfing for PDP-11 information yesterday, I came across pictures of >> a dec data system cabinet >> with the vertical grey panels, one of them having three distinct switches. >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/8061522 at N07/3793505025/ >> > > Seems I can't see any pictures unless I sign up... :-( > > So far, I couldn't find any hints on the web to figure out what they're >> used for. >> They only seem to exist on those larger business cabinets as far as I >> could see. >> >> Does anybody of you know about their functions? >> > > I suspect what you are seeing are the switches that are hooked to the > M9312. One switch is for selecting if you want automatic boot on power on, > one switch is a plain boot switch, and I can't remember what the third does. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > From jws at jwsss.com Sun Apr 19 15:46:34 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 13:46:34 -0700 Subject: Fwd: SCSI Terminal Server question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5534142A.6050908@jwsss.com> Pin 11 is the DIFFSENSE signal. It will not be grounded on an SE cable. an SE cable should have it ganged with all the other grounds to make HVD shut down so as not to damage the negative side of the diff drivers, which go into grounds on the SE side, as well as not harming SE circuits with HVD signals Also on SE pins 1-11, 15-25 are all grounds. On the HVD, 1,26,14,39, 25 and 50 are all grounds. The rest should not be commoned to those signals. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: SCSI Terminal Server question Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 15:48:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Cory Smelosky Reply-To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts To: cctech at classiccmp.org Hey, I have a Digi STS 1032 SCSI terminal server here, thought I'd ask if anyone knows before I pull out the multimeter and fight with using a magnifier to count the pins and measure. 50-pin external SCSI, anyone know if this is an HVD SCSI device? -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 19:43:02 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 19:43:02 -0500 Subject: those moments when out urban exploring and i wana scream In-Reply-To: References: <31B4064A-2DCC-42E5-A2AD-7E06AFBDC04B@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8784/17204256482_aa6b3ddb66_b.jpg went back grabed what i could carry might need another trip to fine come the mud and debree On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 9:11 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i looked into the 8i and relized i left a peac of core memory laying on > the ground im going back tomarrow to get everything els > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > >> >> On 19 Apr 2015, at 3:06 am, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >> > out exploring the rements of a paper mill 20 yrs in the making... mess i >> > stumbled upone this sad iritating site >> > one crushed smashed up pdp8i in the yard of burnt trashed industrial >> junk >> > wasteland >> > >> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/sets/72157651577592077/ >> >> >> Well at least you got a few spare switches.. >> > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Apr 19 19:50:10 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 20:50:10 -0400 Subject: What are the switches on the grey panel of decdatasystem/business cabinets used for? In-Reply-To: References: <858570978.7303746.1429426053281.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55337D95.1020802@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <11101310-1D39-479B-9FB3-E3452EDA95C8@comcast.net> > On Apr 19, 2015, at 11:02 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > ones power on off ones initalize unlock and lock > https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3584/3793505025_e30b13480f_o.jpg If I remember right, the unlock releases a mechanical interlock that blocks the other two switches. If you press unlock, you can then press ?initialize? to boot the machine, or the power on/off switch. paul From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 20:52:18 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 20:52:18 -0500 Subject: those moments when out urban exploring and i wana scream In-Reply-To: References: <31B4064A-2DCC-42E5-A2AD-7E06AFBDC04B@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: found more of the dip switches including ones off a different pdp 8 https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7621/16586222513_4b7c791f38_b.jpg poor core memory https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8703/16584013484_27cafe1b79_b.jpg the pile https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7717/17180627276_6a37b9f104_b.jpg On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8784/17204256482_aa6b3ddb66_b.jpg > > went back grabed what i could carry might need another trip to fine come > the mud and debree > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 9:11 PM, Adrian Stoness > wrote: > >> i looked into the 8i and relized i left a peac of core memory laying on >> the ground im going back tomarrow to get everything els >> >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Chris Pye wrote: >> >>> >>> On 19 Apr 2015, at 3:06 am, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>> > out exploring the rements of a paper mill 20 yrs in the making... mess >>> i >>> > stumbled upone this sad iritating site >>> > one crushed smashed up pdp8i in the yard of burnt trashed industrial >>> junk >>> > wasteland >>> > >>> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/sets/72157651577592077/ >>> >>> >>> Well at least you got a few spare switches.. >>> >> >> > From pye at mactec.com.au Sun Apr 19 21:02:03 2015 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 02:02:03 +0000 Subject: those moments when out urban exploring and i wana scream In-Reply-To: References: <31B4064A-2DCC-42E5-A2AD-7E06AFBDC04B@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <551C0B76-6D43-4B4C-8A4D-0D723595CCBE@mactec.com.au> On 20 Apr 2015, at 11:52 am, Adrian Stoness wrote: > found more of the dip switches including ones off a different pdp 8 > https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7621/16586222513_4b7c791f38_b.jpg > > poor core memory > https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8703/16584013484_27cafe1b79_b.jpg > > the pile > https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7717/17180627276_6a37b9f104_b.jpg Okay, that really is depressing... From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 21:08:31 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 21:08:31 -0500 Subject: those moments when out urban exploring and i wana scream In-Reply-To: <551C0B76-6D43-4B4C-8A4D-0D723595CCBE@mactec.com.au> References: <31B4064A-2DCC-42E5-A2AD-7E06AFBDC04B@mactec.com.au> <551C0B76-6D43-4B4C-8A4D-0D723595CCBE@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: tell me about it :( theres still more sifting to do got all the smashed bits of back plane as well and theres some restorable cards so hopefully parts of it go one to help another machean out there let it in the community or if i should ever get my hands on one thats not smashed From alexmcwhirter at triadic.us Sun Apr 19 12:42:47 2015 From: alexmcwhirter at triadic.us (Alex McWhirter) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 13:42:47 -0400 Subject: How to unsubscribe? Message-ID: <12F786EF-9816-4B60-93B4-6BF4455C465B@triadic.us> I'm receiving every message on the board three times. I'd like to try and unsub and resub to see if it fixes the issue. The website user manager doesn't appear to work. I can't seem to get my password or unsubscribe. Sent from my iPhone From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 01:33:10 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 08:33:10 +0200 Subject: HP21MX boards on Ebay. Message-ID: Someone (not me) in Germany is selling a number of cards from a HP21MX machine. Some boards have date codes from 1974 so I guess it is an M-series. Not sure what cards there are in this lot, but it is for sure the CPU boards itself, some memory boards and what looks like some serial boards. http://www.ebay.de/itm/16-Neuwertige-HP-Speicher-Platinen-und-andere-/231530396731?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item35e8497c3b From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 20 01:40:39 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 08:40:39 +0200 Subject: HP21MX boards on Ebay. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90632099d7a73ebdcd9bf194c02fb3a6@smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net> The mainboard is an E-series board, memory seems to be standard performance. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Mattis Lind" Verzonden: ?20-?4-?2015 08:33 Aan: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Onderwerp: HP21MX boards on Ebay. Someone (not me) in Germany is selling a number of cards from a HP21MX machine. Some boards have date codes from 1974 so I guess it is an M-series. Not sure what cards there are in this lot, but it is for sure the CPU boards itself, some memory boards and what looks like some serial boards. http://www.ebay.de/itm/16-Neuwertige-HP-Speicher-Platinen-und-andere-/231530396731?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item35e8497c3b From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 07:42:16 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 07:42:16 -0500 Subject: Late-model Hercules card Message-ID: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> I've got a full-length ISA (although the last 4" or so is bare PCB, not even any ground plane) Hercules card here which seems to have been built in 1990. On board we have lots of TTL glue, a pair of 50464 RAM chips, a 24 pin "Hercules font ROM", a 6845, and a 40 pin HG61H15R81P IC. Card edge just has a female DE9 connector. Oh, FCC ID is "EW65T5HERCULESTAN". No obvious model number. 1990 seems quite recent, given that we were into SVGA territory by then; sure there were some CAD applications which would make use of an additional video board, but the market must have been small. Based on the above (and to save me having to trace pins) can anyone confirm that the board is compatible with the original Hercules card and will hook up to an MDA display? Given the date I just want to check that it's not one of their CGA or EGA compatibles. cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 20 07:50:27 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 12:50:27 +0000 Subject: Late-model Hercules card In-Reply-To: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> References: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > display? Given the date I just want to check that it's not one of their CGA > or EGA compatibles. You don't need to trace much to figure out what it is (assuming it's standard [1]). First check if pins 1 and 2 of the DE9 are solidly grounded. If pin 1 isn't, it's something strange. If pin 2 isn't (but pin 1 is), it's likely to be EGA [2]. If they are both grounded, then it's likely to be MDA (hercules) or CGA. Now check if pins 3,4,5 are connected or floating. The diode check range on a DMM is useful here, try it both ways round between the pins and ground. If all are floating, it's MDA, if they are all driven, it's CGA. Now pin 7 is an oddity. On the original IBM CGA card it was not connected. On a lot of clones it's a composite video output, [1] I have a hercules-compatible card here that drives a monitor other than at MDA frequencies. There is a PAL between the data bus and the 6845 that intercepts writes to some of the 6845 registers and changes them so that the actual values written to the chip are not what you'd expect. Made by AES and used in one of their 80286-based machines IIRC [2] The original IBM EGA card had a jumper link to either ground pin 2 (if you were using it with an MDA or CGA monitor) or connect it to the appropriate colour output, Some clones have this, others don't, but it is easy to spot. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 20 08:46:33 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 08:46:33 -0500 Subject: HP21MX boards on Ebay. In-Reply-To: <90632099d7a73ebdcd9bf194c02fb3a6@smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net> References: <90632099d7a73ebdcd9bf194c02fb3a6@smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net> Message-ID: <000001d07b70$6a595f60$3f0c1e20$@classiccmp.org> One of those is clearly a 2100A/S memory controller (only works in a 2100). J From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 09:37:32 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 16:37:32 +0200 Subject: BBC Collectaholics Message-ID: I haven't seen this yet but I'm told that last week's episode of this show featured an impressive vintage computer collection. It's on BBC iPlayer, but I have a downloadable copy as well if that is inaccessible for anyone... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 09:44:33 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:44:33 +0100 Subject: BBC Collectaholics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <019f01d07b78$848bf0c0$8da3d240$@gmail.com> I think many of us on here know of Jim Austin whose collection was featured.. http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam > Proven > Sent: 20 April 2015 15:38 > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: BBC Collectaholics > > I haven't seen this yet but I'm told that last week's episode of this show > featured an impressive vintage computer collection. It's on BBC iPlayer, but I > have a downloadable copy as well if that is inaccessible for anyone... > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 09:52:57 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 16:52:57 +0200 Subject: BBC Collectaholics In-Reply-To: <019f01d07b78$848bf0c0$8da3d240$@gmail.com> References: <019f01d07b78$848bf0c0$8da3d240$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have seen that episode too. Very cool. But then, I have been at Jim's place ... awesome collection! Pete was also in that episode. - Henk -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Dave G4UGM Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 4:44 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: BBC Collectaholics I think many of us on here know of Jim Austin whose collection was featured.. http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ Dave From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Apr 20 09:55:24 2015 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:55:24 +0100 Subject: BBC Collectaholics In-Reply-To: <019f01d07b78$848bf0c0$8da3d240$@gmail.com> References: <019f01d07b78$848bf0c0$8da3d240$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm planning on going there and giving him a hand.... I live within reasonable driving distance... On 20 April 2015 at 15:44, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I think many of us on here know of Jim Austin whose collection was > featured.. > > http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam > > Proven > > Sent: 20 April 2015 15:38 > > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: BBC Collectaholics > > > > I haven't seen this yet but I'm told that last week's episode of this > show > > featured an impressive vintage computer collection. It's on BBC iPlayer, > but I > > have a downloadable copy as well if that is inaccessible for anyone... > > > > -- > > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 20 11:50:47 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 11:50:47 -0500 Subject: How to unsubscribe? In-Reply-To: <12F786EF-9816-4B60-93B4-6BF4455C465B@triadic.us> References: <12F786EF-9816-4B60-93B4-6BF4455C465B@triadic.us> Message-ID: At 12:42 PM 4/19/2015, you wrote: >I'm receiving every message on the board three times. I'd like to try and unsub and resub to see if it fixes the issue. The website user manager doesn't appear to work. I can't seem to get my password or unsubscribe. I assumed the dupes I get are because cctech is mirrored to cctalk. - John From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Apr 20 13:29:37 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:29:37 +0000 Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Cory Smelosky Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2015 9:22 AM >> On Apr 18, 2015, at 03:48, Tothwolf wrote: >> You'll need a converter. These type of differential drives can't be >> connected directly to a single ended bus, wide or narrow. If you do, you are >> connecting one side of the differential pair to ground, and these drives >> don't like that. There are also signal differences, see the pinouts for wide >> and wide differential and look at the pin numbers for attention, busy, ack, >> reset, etc. Later LVD devices could detect which sort of bus they were >> connected to, but these drives can't. > Or I can order an HVD card as all of my cards are bad anyway. http://www.scsi4me.com/scsi_hba-controller-cards_differential-hvd.html There is an Adaptec card and 2 LSI Logic (Symbios) cards, all under $100, all marked "used pull". > Happen to have recommendations for an converter? I don't have a massive > surplus of HVD drives so I'll need 1 of those as well. I like the Paralan products (we used them in the XKL Toad-1 to connect a DAT drive--later a DLT--to the HVD bus), but they run $300-$500 each new. I don't know whether there is a used market. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From b4 at gewt.net Mon Apr 20 13:42:08 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 14:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: > >> Or I can order an HVD card as all of my cards are bad anyway. > > http://www.scsi4me.com/scsi_hba-controller-cards_differential-hvd.html > > There is an Adaptec card and 2 LSI Logic (Symbios) cards, all under $100, all > marked "used pull". > Thanks - Likely going to stockpile cards now! >> Happen to have recommendations for an converter? I don't have a massive >> surplus of HVD drives so I'll need 1 of those as well. > > I like the Paralan products (we used them in the XKL Toad-1 to connect a DAT > drive--later a DLT--to the HVD bus), but they run $300-$500 each new. I don't > know whether there is a used market. > I managed to get 2 for $20ea! Does the PANDA monitor include a patched MTBOOT? > Rich > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Apr 20 14:00:28 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 19:00:28 +0000 Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBB4F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Cory Smelosky Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 11:42 AM > Does the PANDA monitor include a patched MTBOOT? I'm not sure what you mean. The Panda monitor is a standard KL-10 monitor, usually attached to KLH10 but should be runnable on real hardware. As such, it would not need to have an MTBOOT that was customized in any way. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From b4 at gewt.net Mon Apr 20 14:12:31 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:12:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBB4F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBB4F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Cory Smelosky > Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 11:42 AM > >> Does the PANDA monitor include a patched MTBOOT? > > I'm not sure what you mean. The Panda monitor is a standard KL-10 monitor, > usually attached to KLH10 but should be runnable on real hardware. As such, > it would not need to have an MTBOOT that was customized in any way. > Errr, let me rephrase. Does the PANDA distribution have a MTBOOT that supports anything additional? I have heard it supports some extra stuff. (Also, do you have any install tapes/monitor sources/bootstrap sources from the TOAD-1? I doubt the FDDI is simulated to stock DEC monitors as an NIA20 and some references regarding SCSI/Networking there would be helpful)) > Rich > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 14:28:34 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 12:28:34 -0700 Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > >> Happen to have recommendations for an converter? I don't have a massive >> surplus of HVD drives so I'll need 1 of those as well. > > I like the Paralan products (we used them in the XKL Toad-1 to connect a DAT > drive--later a DLT--to the HVD bus), but they run $300-$500 each new. I don't > know whether there is a used market. Would DEC DWZZB-AA be suitable for this application? http://www.ebay.com/itm/171056347113 http://www.ebay.com/itm/390293227921 ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openstorage/KDWZZBUG.PDF From b4 at gewt.net Mon Apr 20 14:37:03 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:37:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 2015, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Rich Alderson > wrote: >> >>> Happen to have recommendations for an converter? I don't have a massive >>> surplus of HVD drives so I'll need 1 of those as well. >> >> I like the Paralan products (we used them in the XKL Toad-1 to connect a DAT >> drive--later a DLT--to the HVD bus), but they run $300-$500 each new. I don't >> know whether there is a used market. > > Would DEC DWZZB-AA be suitable for this application? > http://www.ebay.com/itm/171056347113 > http://www.ebay.com/itm/390293227921 > > ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openstorage/KDWZZBUG.PDF > Manual says it allows a length of 25m ... so I would reasonably say it's HVD...so...probably. -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 17:20:45 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 10:20:45 +1200 Subject: BBC Collectaholics In-Reply-To: <019f01d07b78$848bf0c0$8da3d240$@gmail.com> References: <019f01d07b78$848bf0c0$8da3d240$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh excellent! He took a Convex, an SGI Crimson, a 4D, and an AS/400, when I thinned the Corestore Collection prior to moving to the USA :) Mike On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 2:44 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I think many of us on here know of Jim Austin whose collection was featured.. > > http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam >> Proven >> Sent: 20 April 2015 15:38 >> To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: BBC Collectaholics >> >> I haven't seen this yet but I'm told that last week's episode of this show >> featured an impressive vintage computer collection. It's on BBC iPlayer, but I >> have a downloadable copy as well if that is inaccessible for anyone... >> >> -- >> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile >> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven >> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven >> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From johnmusbach1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 17:51:51 2015 From: johnmusbach1 at gmail.com (John Musbach) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:51:51 -0400 Subject: How to unsubscribe? In-Reply-To: <20150420165113.4D3FA2073E97@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <12F786EF-9816-4B60-93B4-6BF4455C465B@triadic.us> <20150420165113.4D3FA2073E97@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 12:50 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 12:42 PM 4/19/2015, you wrote: >>I'm receiving every message on the board three times. I'd like to try and unsub and resub to see if it fixes the issue. The website user manager doesn't appear to work. I can't seem to get my password or unsubscribe. > > I assumed the dupes I get are because cctech is mirrored to cctalk. The work around I've found is to use Gmail... Gmail automatically deletes dupes so you never see them. -- Best Regards, John Musbach From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Apr 20 18:35:49 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 23:35:49 +0000 Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBB4F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBFCE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Cory Smelosky Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:13 PM > On Mon, 20 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Cory Smelosky >> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 11:42 AM >>> Does the PANDA monitor include a patched MTBOOT? >> I'm not sure what you mean. The Panda monitor is a standard KL-10 monitor, >> usually attached to KLH10 but should be runnable on real hardware. As such, >> it would not need to have an MTBOOT that was customized in any way. > Does the PANDA distribution have a MTBOOT that supports anything > additional? I have heard it supports some extra stuff. We'd have to look at the BOOT source (BOOT.MAC) for that. > (Also, do you have any install tapes/monitor sources/bootstrap sources > from the TOAD-1? I doubt the FDDI is simulated to stock DEC monitors as an > NIA20 and some references regarding SCSI/Networking there would be > helpful)) FDDI? Not on the Toad-1, certainly. Toad-1 systems comprise 4 board types: XKL-1 CPU, XNI-1 10baseT Ethernet, XRH-1 "FASTWIDE" differential SCSI-2, and XMG-1 32MW memory. The XNI-1 looks to the monitor like 4x Cisco MEIS cards (derived from the Stanford interface of the same name), not a DEC NIA-20. There are PDFs of the Toad-1 System Installation manual and the Toad-1 Architecture Reference available via anonymous FTP from toad2a.livingcomputermuseum.org (change directory to PS:, ignore the warning about sending a password). XKL did not ship monitor source with the system, nor was it available for purchase separately. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From b4 at gewt.net Mon Apr 20 18:43:06 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 19:43:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBFCE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBB4F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBFCE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: >> additional? I have heard it supports some extra stuff. > > We'd have to look at the BOOT source (BOOT.MAC) for that. > Alright. I'll hunt for that. > > FDDI? Not on the Toad-1, certainly. Toad-1 systems comprise 4 board types: > XKL-1 CPU, XNI-1 10baseT Ethernet, XRH-1 "FASTWIDE" differential SCSI-2, and > XMG-1 32MW memory. The XNI-1 looks to the monitor like 4x Cisco MEIS cards > (derived from the Stanford interface of the same name), not a DEC NIA-20. > Thanks - that's a useful starting point. > There are PDFs of the Toad-1 System Installation manual and the Toad-1 > Architecture Reference available via anonymous FTP from > toad2a.livingcomputermuseum.org (change directory to PS:, > ignore the warning about sending a password). XKL did not ship monitor source > with the system, nor was it available for purchase separately. > Ahh - unfortunate. :( Thanks! That's helpful...except: Remote system type is TOPS20. Remember to set tenex mode when transferring binary files from this machine. cd ftp> cd PS: 331 Default name accepted. Send password to connect to it. ftp> dir 421 Service not available, remote server timed out. Connection closed. ftp> BSD FTP clients disliking it? > Rich > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Apr 20 19:18:37 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 00:18:37 +0000 Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBB4F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBFCE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDC0D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Cory Smelosky Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 4:43 PM On Mon, 20 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: >> There are PDFs of the Toad-1 System Installation manual and the Toad-1 >> Architecture Reference available via anonymous FTP from > Thanks! That's helpful...except: > Remote system type is TOPS20. > Remember to set tenex mode when transferring binary files from this > machine. > cd ftp> cd PS: > 331 Default name accepted. Send password to connect to it. > ftp> dir > 421 Service not available, remote server timed out. Connection closed. > ftp> > BSD FTP clients disliking it? I don't see you logging in anywhere. Did you edit that out, or did you forget? Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From b4 at gewt.net Mon Apr 20 19:19:55 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 20:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDC0D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBB4F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBFCE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDC0D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: >> BSD FTP clients disliking it? > > I don't see you logging in anywhere. Did you edit that out, or did you > forget? > I edited that out. 230- User ANONYMOUS, job 9, logged in at 230- 20-Apr-2015 16:47:44. > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Apr 20 20:28:52 2015 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:28:52 -0700 Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBB4F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBFCE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDC0D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5535A7D4.7060509@jwsss.com> On 4/20/2015 5:19 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On Tue, 21 Apr 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> BSD FTP clients disliking it? >> >> I don't see you logging in anywhere. Did you edit that out, or did you >> forget? >> > > I edited that out. > > 230- User ANONYMOUS, job 9, logged in at > 230- 20-Apr-2015 16:47:44. > > >> Rich >> >> >> Rich Alderson >> Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer >> Living Computer Museum >> 2245 1st Avenue S >> Seattle, WA 98134 >> >> mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org >> >> http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ >> > Rich, I also had difficulty with the FTP, but trying to use Filezilla. I specified remote system type VMS for lack of any other filezilla OS that would take PS: file names. I got a good anonymous session, but the PWD command was rejected by the server, and at that point Filezilla has a hissy fit and stops. I used the server->custom command to try to issue a LIST and NLST command to the server, but it was having none of that, and those commands time out after about 15 seconds. The linux command line FTP works fine. I wonder if Cory's problem was / is an active vs. passive issue? Does your firewall allow passive connections? (I think those are the ones which drill back at the server IP and expect to get another socket). I've had problems with that in the past, and have had to fiddle with various clients to get the right combination for the server. But on the Filezilla problem, I am not sure what the "dir" command on the linux command line client translates to that works, whereas issuing that as a custom command it is rejected. I just used mget to grab the documentation from the command line, so problem solved anyway. BTW with various people looking for Panda, I've not found anything, but am not giving up. I could swear I found access to it some time ago and got some stuff downloaded. thanks Jim From b4 at gewt.net Mon Apr 20 20:39:58 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 21:39:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CompuServe Drives: Custom firmware? In-Reply-To: <5535A7D4.7060509@jwsss.com> References: <74BA9B75-DE11-430E-9D7A-100AC60BF069@gewt.net> <1111948A-44BC-4EB9-ADB9-99D31C717D27@gewt.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBABF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBB4F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDBFCE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DDC0D4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5535A7D4.7060509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 2015, jim s wrote: > > > > Rich, > I also had difficulty with the FTP, but trying to use Filezilla. I specified > remote system type VMS for lack of any other filezilla OS that would take > PS: file names. > > I got a good anonymous session, but the PWD command was rejected by the > server, and at that point Filezilla has a hissy fit and stops. > > I used the server->custom command to try to issue a LIST and NLST command to > the server, but it was having none of that, and those commands time out after > about 15 seconds. > > The linux command line FTP works fine. > > I wonder if Cory's problem was / is an active vs. passive issue? Does your > firewall allow passive connections? (I think those are the ones which drill > back at the server IP and expect to get another socket). I've had problems > with that in the past, and have had to fiddle with various clients to get the > right combination for the server. > Yeah, I went to active and all was good. > But on the Filezilla problem, I am not sure what the "dir" command on the > linux command line client translates to that works, whereas issuing that as a > custom command it is rejected. > > I just used mget to grab the documentation from the command line, so problem > solved anyway. Same. Now to figure out what PSF is. > > BTW with various people looking for Panda, I've not found anything, but am > not giving up. I could swear I found access to it some time ago and got some > stuff downloaded. > > thanks > Jim > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 00:34:09 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 01:34:09 -0400 Subject: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A In-Reply-To: <20150418101451.GA2066@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <20150418101451.GA2066@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 6:14 AM, Martin Peters wrote: > Hello! > > The EPROMs are labeled 07595-18045 and 07595-18046. We suspect some > bits have toggled. > > Can anyone do a dump for me? It's for the 7596A of our local > hackerspace. I have _a_ Draftmaster II. I can check tomorrow what its model and feature set are. It might take a little longer to crack it open to check ROM labels. -ethan From maxweb at pacbell.net Mon Apr 20 23:20:11 2015 From: maxweb at pacbell.net (Shawn Neely) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 04:20:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: seeking 680x0-based Sun gear Message-ID: <22780480.929948.1429590011257.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi.? I'm new to the list, but have been collecting and restoring (mostly S-100 stuff) for many years.? Now I'd like to expand my hobby to tackle a 680x0-based Sun system.? I have some Multibus cards that I'd like to interface, and a VME-Multibus adapter if necessary, so I'm hoping to find a Sun-2 or Sun-3 system or parts to assemble into a working configuration.? I'm located in the San Francisco bay area but looking everywhere.? If you've got any related items that you might be willing to part with, or any leads that could be fruitful, I'd love to hear from you! (Another collector suggested that I might look for a Sun-4 VME chassis and populate it with Sun-3 boards, which seems like an interesting idea.? At this point I'm basically open to anything, but really would like to focus on a Multibus or VME configuration.) cheers, Shawn Neelymaxweb at pacbell dot net From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 07:10:13 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 07:10:13 -0500 Subject: Late-model Hercules card In-Reply-To: References: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> On 04/20/2015 07:50 AM, tony duell wrote: >> >> display? Given the date I just want to check that it's not one of their CGA >> or EGA compatibles. > > You don't need to trace much to figure out what it is (assuming it's standard [1]). > > First check if pins 1 and 2 of the DE9 are solidly grounded. If pin 1 isn't, it's something > strange. If pin 2 isn't (but pin 1 is), it's likely to be EGA [2]. If they are both grounded, then > it's likely to be MDA (hercules) or CGA. > > Now check if pins 3,4,5 are connected or floating. The diode check range on a DMM is > useful here, try it both ways round between the pins and ground. If all are floating, it's MDA, > if they are all driven, it's CGA. Thanks Tony, looks like it's straight MDA, then - 1 and 2 are grounded, and 3,4,5 are n/c. I'm still surprised that there was a market for new Hercules boards in 1990, although I suppose it's possible that it was part of a batch made for a specific contract. That 4" of bare PCB is just weird, too, perhaps suggesting that it was made for a specific application where having the card secured at both ends was useful. cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 21 07:29:56 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 07:29:56 -0500 Subject: How to unsubscribe? In-Reply-To: <12F786EF-9816-4B60-93B4-6BF4455C465B@triadic.us> References: <12F786EF-9816-4B60-93B4-6BF4455C465B@triadic.us> Message-ID: <000601d07c2e$e08a6350$a19f29f0$@classiccmp.org> Not sure why the automated process wouldn't work... but you've been unsubscribed. See if re-subscribing works the magic! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alex McWhirter Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 12:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: How to unsubscribe? I'm receiving every message on the board three times. I'd like to try and unsub and resub to see if it fixes the issue. The website user manager doesn't appear to work. I can't seem to get my password or unsubscribe. Sent from my iPhone= From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Tue Apr 21 09:18:45 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 10:18:45 -0400 Subject: Visual Basic Question Message-ID: <55365C45.4040009@verizon.net> I have a software driver for an old scientific instrument that is described in a brief manual this way: "The acquisition driver is a tool that allows developers to write their own Windows based programs that can acquire data from any Michelson series spectrometer. The programs can be developed with any programming environment that supports calling standard Windows 16bit DLLs. Examples of such environments are Visual Basic and Visual C++ from Microsoft ( up to version 1.5 ), Delphi and C++ from Borland, Labview from National instruments. This document assumes that the reader is familiar with all the concepts surrounding DLLs and Windows programming. It is a reference guide that explains the parameters of the functions that make up the Bomem acquisition driver and how they are used to acquire data." I recently purchased Visual Basic 4.0 Standard Edition, but the first pages of the reference indicate that it is a 32 bit only version. Which version of Visual Basic will allow me to call this driver? From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 21 09:33:26 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 07:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Visual Basic Question In-Reply-To: <55365C45.4040009@verizon.net> References: <55365C45.4040009@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Apr 2015, Douglas Taylor wrote: > I have a software driver for an old scientific instrument that is described > in a brief manual this way: > > "The acquisition driver is a tool that allows developers to write their own > Windows based programs that > can acquire data from any Michelson series spectrometer. The programs can be > developed with any > programming environment that supports calling standard Windows 16bit DLLs. > Examples of such > environments are Visual Basic and Visual C++ from Microsoft ( up to version > 1.5 ), Delphi and C++ > from Borland, Labview from National instruments. This document assumes that > the reader is familiar > with all the concepts surrounding DLLs and Windows programming. It is a > reference guide that explains > the parameters of the functions that make up the Bomem acquisition driver and > how they are used to > acquire data." > > I recently purchased Visual Basic 4.0 Standard Edition, but the first pages > of the reference indicate that it is a 32 bit only version. > > Which version of Visual Basic will allow me to call this driver? > Doug, you should be able to use VB6 for that - you can call a DLL from just about any programming language on Windows. Does it give you any example code to work with? Is there a scan of the manual available? If you're not familiar with VB, I'd be happy to help you get it sorted. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From brian at marstella.net Tue Apr 21 09:54:58 2015 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 10:54:58 -0400 Subject: Visual Basic Question In-Reply-To: References: <55365C45.4040009@verizon.net> Message-ID: >From my recollection, it seems that VB4 couldn't directly use 16-bit DLLs but VB3 can. I think with VB4 I'd created an interface through VC to load the routine(s) but that's a clunky way of doing it. You might give VB3 a shot, depending on which version of Windows you're going to be using. On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 10:33 AM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 21 Apr 2015, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > I have a software driver for an old scientific instrument that is >> described in a brief manual this way: >> >> "The acquisition driver is a tool that allows developers to write their >> own Windows based programs that >> can acquire data from any Michelson series spectrometer. The programs can >> be developed with any >> programming environment that supports calling standard Windows 16bit >> DLLs. Examples of such >> environments are Visual Basic and Visual C++ from Microsoft ( up to >> version 1.5 ), Delphi and C++ >> from Borland, Labview from National instruments. This document assumes >> that the reader is familiar >> with all the concepts surrounding DLLs and Windows programming. It is a >> reference guide that explains >> the parameters of the functions that make up the Bomem acquisition driver >> and how they are used to >> acquire data." >> >> I recently purchased Visual Basic 4.0 Standard Edition, but the first >> pages of the reference indicate that it is a 32 bit only version. >> >> Which version of Visual Basic will allow me to call this driver? >> >> > Doug, you should be able to use VB6 for that - you can call a DLL from > just about any programming language on Windows. Does it give you any > example code to work with? Is there a scan of the manual available? > > If you're not familiar with VB, I'd be happy to help you get it sorted. > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 11:45:58 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 17:45:58 +0100 Subject: Visual Basic Question In-Reply-To: <55365C45.4040009@verizon.net> References: <55365C45.4040009@verizon.net> Message-ID: <009001d07c52$a4e6dc60$eeb49520$@gmail.com> The phrase "standard Windows 16bit DLLs" means Windows 3.1 DLLs. Such DLL's no longer work in a modern windows. If they directly access the hardware then they will not work on any NT based windows such as Windows/2000, Windows/XP, Vista, or 7, 8 or 9. Nor will they work on any 64-Bit windows full stop. 64-Bit windows does not support 16-bit code. If you have a Windows/95, 98 or ME environment then the code may work. There is information here:- http://www.tsreader.com/docs/eng-ole.html on how to call 16-bit DLL's from VB4. How does the hardware physically interface? Is it a serial or parallel card, or special hardware. Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Douglas > Taylor > Sent: 21 April 2015 15:19 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts > Subject: Visual Basic Question > > I have a software driver for an old scientific instrument that is described in a > brief manual this way: > > "The acquisition driver is a tool that allows developers to write their own > Windows based programs that can acquire data from any Michelson series > spectrometer. The programs can be developed with any programming > environment that supports calling standard Windows 16bit DLLs. Examples of > such environments are Visual Basic and Visual C++ from Microsoft ( up to > version 1.5 ), Delphi and C++ from Borland, Labview from National > instruments. This document assumes that the reader is familiar with all the > concepts surrounding DLLs and Windows programming. It is a reference > guide that explains the parameters of the functions that make up the > Bomem acquisition driver and how they are used to acquire data." > > I recently purchased Visual Basic 4.0 Standard Edition, but the first pages of > the reference indicate that it is a 32 bit only version. > > Which version of Visual Basic will allow me to call this driver? From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 21 12:55:56 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 10:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Visual Basic Question In-Reply-To: <009001d07c52$a4e6dc60$eeb49520$@gmail.com> References: <55365C45.4040009@verizon.net> <009001d07c52$a4e6dc60$eeb49520$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Apr 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: > The phrase "standard Windows 16bit DLLs" means Windows 3.1 DLLs. Such > DLL's no longer work in a modern windows. If they directly access the > hardware then they will not work on any NT based windows such as > Windows/2000, Windows/XP, Vista, or 7, 8 or 9. Nor will they work on any > 64-Bit windows full stop. 64-Bit windows does not support 16-bit code. > If you have a Windows/95, 98 or ME environment then the code may work. They should work with 32 bit versions of windows as the 16 bit thunking layer is still present. YMMV of course. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 13:33:10 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 19:33:10 +0100 Subject: Visual Basic Question In-Reply-To: References: <55365C45.4040009@verizon.net> <009001d07c52$a4e6dc60$eeb49520$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not if they access hardware via ports. On Apr 21, 2015 6:56 PM, "geneb" wrote: > On Tue, 21 Apr 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > The phrase "standard Windows 16bit DLLs" means Windows 3.1 DLLs. Such >> DLL's no longer work in a modern windows. If they directly access the >> hardware then they will not work on any NT based windows such as >> Windows/2000, Windows/XP, Vista, or 7, 8 or 9. Nor will they work on any >> 64-Bit windows full stop. 64-Bit windows does not support 16-bit code. If >> you have a Windows/95, 98 or ME environment then the code may work. >> > > They should work with 32 bit versions of windows as the 16 bit thunking > layer is still present. YMMV of course. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 16:04:40 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 21:04:40 +0000 Subject: Late-model Hercules card In-Reply-To: <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> References: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> , <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Thanks Tony, looks like it's straight MDA, then - 1 and 2 are grounded, and > 3,4,5 are n/c. So presumably Hercules graphics (after all, there's 64K RAM on there). > I'm still surprised that there was a market for new Hercules boards in > 1990, although I suppose it's possible that it was part of a batch made for That is about the time I got my first PC-compatible (a real IBM 5160) and at that time the PC-parts-shop I used (Target Electronics in Bristol, they sold some useful surplus stuff too, and electronic components) sold clone (ASIC-based) CGA, EGA and mono cards (the last may well have been herculese), XT-clone motherboards, etc. I assume people bought them. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 21 16:45:58 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 16:45:58 -0500 Subject: HP2000/Access TimeShare BASIC (pics) Message-ID: <002201d07c7c$8deb9580$a9c2c080$@classiccmp.org> My latest HP2000/Access TSB system build came to life today. Pictures at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/ There is still a lot of "cosmetic work" before I'm satisfied with it. Some detail parts need to be added, some additional cleaning and cable dressing, etc. All the doors, filler panels, and some trim needs to be put back in place. This system has passed extended (overnight) diagnostics on every board, microcode option, and peripheral. There is an issue with the 7906D - it works ok, but there is some occasional bearing noise. I have another 7906D sitting there ready to rackmount but I was so close I just couldn't wait for that and had to fire it up and load the OS. The 29425D cabinet is opened up only because I was poking at it to check for the source of the noise. Unlike my dual 2100A/S TSB system, this one is destined for some development work and I'll be adding a small (read low power) tape/disk combo, a "flash" based paper tape reader/punch, and some baci boards which TSB doesn't support ("currently" cough cough). The only item that needs to be added is the dual sync modem board set. yes, I'm going to do HP2000/Access RJE to Hercules ;) J From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 16:53:09 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:53:09 -0600 Subject: HP2000/Access TimeShare BASIC (pics) In-Reply-To: <002201d07c7c$8deb9580$a9c2c080$@classiccmp.org> References: <002201d07c7c$8deb9580$a9c2c080$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Jay West wrote: > My latest HP2000/Access TSB system build came to life today. Pictures at: Nicely done! From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Apr 21 17:17:47 2015 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 23:17:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Late-model Hercules card In-Reply-To: <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> References: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Apr 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm still surprised that there was a market for new Hercules boards in 1990, > although I suppose it's possible that it was part of a batch made for a > specific contract. That 4" of bare PCB is just weird, too, perhaps suggesting > that it was made for a specific application where having the card secured at > both ends was useful. FWIW as I remember in Poland there were still new deployments of HGC clone installations in early 1990s, like 1992 or so, in education. That stuff was presumably much cheaper, being phased out by VGA. The boards I remember from that period were were highly integrated and much smaller though, like about the length of an 8-bit ISA slot which is what they took. A printer port was included of course. Maciej From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 18:41:16 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 18:41:16 -0500 Subject: IBM 5160 oddball fault Message-ID: <5536E01C.70703@gmail.com> I picked up a (known-faulty) 5160 a few weeks back, just because it had a keyboard with an intact decal, and the one on my otherwise-perfect system is missing. The machine came with a CGA card, which I've tested as working in my other 5160. Symptoms of the fault are one long beep and two short beeps at power-on, with 1024 characters of garbage displayed on-screen (typically either a solid block or a space, but with a handful of other random chars) - i.e. 12 rows of 80 and then a row of 64. Following this on screen, at location 13,64, the memory count occurs, and then it'll drop to ROM BASIC (no hard disk, and for the purposes of testing I've not bothered with a boot floppy), with the BASIC startup text starting at row 14 and all offset by 64 characters from the left margin. However, the function key reference on the bottom line of the display is OK, starting at position 25,1. I can issue BASIC commands, and each new line is offset by 64 characters, until I hit the bottom of the screen, at which point text appears at position 1 (but still offset from the top of the screen by 13 lines). Issuing a 'cls' doesn't remove the garbage from the display, and typing then resumes from location 13,64. Throughout all of this the cursor seems to appear where I'd expect it on the screen, however - I'm assuming it's done via hardware entirely within the CGA card. I've tried pulling all other cards, leaving just the CGA board, and the problem persists. One long and two short beeps seems to be 'video failure', but as mentioned I've verified that the card works in my other 5160. Does anyone have any ideas what might be going on? It doesn't quite seem like a memory fault - possibly some sort of address decoding error? It's almost like the video board is pulling display data from the wrong part of memory, but I'm not sure that makes sense given that the board has its own local RAM rather than relying on RAM on the system board. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 21 18:49:31 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 16:49:31 -0700 Subject: Late-model Hercules card In-Reply-To: References: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5536E20B.4090401@sydex.com> On 04/21/2015 03:17 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > FWIW as I remember in Poland there were still new deployments of HGC > clone installations in early 1990s, like 1992 or so, in education. That > stuff was presumably much cheaper, being phased out by VGA. The boards I > remember from that period were were highly integrated and much smaller > though, like about the length of an 8-bit ISA slot which is what they > took. A printer port was included of course. POS use was quite common well into the 90s. Monochrome monitors were significantly less expensive, power-hungry, and finicky. In addition, it afforded near-VGA resolution if graphics was necessary. A related episode was the deployment of monochrome VGA monitors. Significantly less expense than the color ones. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 19:09:55 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 19:09:55 -0500 Subject: IBM 5160 oddball fault In-Reply-To: <5536E01C.70703@gmail.com> References: <5536E01C.70703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5536E6D3.4010402@gmail.com> On 04/21/2015 06:41 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Symptoms of the fault are one long beep and two short beeps at power-on, > with 1024 characters of garbage displayed on-screen (typically either a > solid block or a space, but with a handful of other random chars) - i.e. 12 > rows of 80 and then a row of 64. A picture being worth a thousand words and all that... http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/5160.jpg cheers J. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 21 20:10:23 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 20:10:23 -0500 Subject: looking for an HP software product.... Message-ID: <000101d07c99$1c513930$54f3ab90$@classiccmp.org> HP had a product for TSB called "HP TSP/2000" aka "HP TSP/2000-HASP" Product number: 20240A The germane part numbers: 24384A TSP/2000 (800bpi media) 24384A Opt 001 TSP/2000 (1600bpi media) 20240-90001 2000/Access Telecommunications Supervisory Package for HASP Operator Manual 20240-90002 2000/Access Telecommunications Supervisory Package for HASP Reference Manual I would very *very* much like a copy of this, and I have never once come across it anywhere. J From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 15:25:00 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 21:25:00 +0100 Subject: Visual Basic Question In-Reply-To: References: <55365C45.4040009@verizon.net> <009001d07c52$a4e6dc60$eeb49520$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <05fc01d07c71$3e78b0b0$bb6a1210$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb > Sent: 21 April 2015 18:56 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Visual Basic Question > > On Tue, 21 Apr 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > > The phrase "standard Windows 16bit DLLs" means Windows 3.1 DLLs. Such > > DLL's no longer work in a modern windows. If they directly access the > > hardware then they will not work on any NT based windows such as > > Windows/2000, Windows/XP, Vista, or 7, 8 or 9. Nor will they work on > > any 64-Bit windows full stop. 64-Bit windows does not support 16-bit code. > > If you have a Windows/95, 98 or ME environment then the code may work. > > They should work with 32 bit versions of windows as the 16 bit thunking layer is > still present. YMMV of course. What I said was:- " If they directly access the hardware then they will not work on any NT based windows such as..." As they are interfacing to external hardware I assume they access the hardware directly... > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value > database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Tue Apr 21 19:20:22 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 20:20:22 -0400 Subject: Visual Basic Question In-Reply-To: <009001d07c52$a4e6dc60$eeb49520$@gmail.com> References: <55365C45.4040009@verizon.net> <009001d07c52$a4e6dc60$eeb49520$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5536E946.7010506@verizon.net> The interface is an ISA bus card that is a custom design. ISA slots in computers are hard to come by these days. Luckily for me I ran into a Gateway in a thrift store that did. I have some of the diagnostic routines and they run under Windows 98 and 'talk' to the spectrometer via the interface card. I suppose it is using the same low level driver. In the published literature of that era (1990's) I found a couple of references that said they used Visual Basic to get data for experiments. On 4/21/2015 12:45 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > The phrase "standard Windows 16bit DLLs" means Windows 3.1 DLLs. Such DLL's no longer work in a modern windows. If they directly access the hardware then they will not work on any NT based windows such as Windows/2000, Windows/XP, Vista, or 7, 8 or 9. Nor will they work on any 64-Bit windows full stop. 64-Bit windows does not support 16-bit code. If you have a Windows/95, 98 or ME environment then the code may work. > > There is information here:- > > http://www.tsreader.com/docs/eng-ole.html > > on how to call 16-bit DLL's from VB4. > > How does the hardware physically interface? Is it a serial or parallel card, or special hardware. > > Dave > G4UGM > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Douglas >> Taylor >> Sent: 21 April 2015 15:19 >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts >> Subject: Visual Basic Question >> >> I have a software driver for an old scientific instrument that is described in a >> brief manual this way: >> >> "The acquisition driver is a tool that allows developers to write their own >> Windows based programs that can acquire data from any Michelson series >> spectrometer. The programs can be developed with any programming >> environment that supports calling standard Windows 16bit DLLs. Examples of >> such environments are Visual Basic and Visual C++ from Microsoft ( up to >> version 1.5 ), Delphi and C++ from Borland, Labview from National >> instruments. This document assumes that the reader is familiar with all the >> concepts surrounding DLLs and Windows programming. It is a reference >> guide that explains the parameters of the functions that make up the >> Bomem acquisition driver and how they are used to acquire data." >> >> I recently purchased Visual Basic 4.0 Standard Edition, but the first pages of >> the reference indicate that it is a 32 bit only version. >> >> Which version of Visual Basic will allow me to call this driver? > From alan at alanlee.org Wed Apr 22 00:37:34 2015 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 01:37:34 -0400 Subject: VCF-SE 3.0 Update Message-ID: Here is a promotional blurb that ran on the Atlanta area tech show on our local NBC affiliate WXIA "11Alive" Atlanta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhpZbmCEWfc [1] If you are in the Atlanta area or know someone who is, we would love to have you. The speaker schedule is now updated on Vintage.org: http://www.vintage.org/2015/southeast/session.php [2] We have an upgraded Speakers Hall this year and will be adding a few last minute additions in the coming days. We are also doing a 6 session 20x20 speed presentation round again this year. It features 6 speakers giving a short and to the point ~6 minute presentations on mini-topics where each speaker's 20 slides auto-advance every 20 seconds. The consignment area is also expanded. John Harris has graciously donated approximately 2500 technical books available to the public for a donation to our club. We also have popcorn, other concessions, Doom and Marathon gaming LANs, Learn-to-Solder workshops featuring a new build-it-yourself wearable wrist-watch, a retro-console gaming wall, the Apple and LINK pop-up museums will be open, as well as dozens of exhibitors showing off their private collections. I hope to see you there! -Alan Links: ------ [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhpZbmCEWfc [2] http://www.vintage.org/2015/southeast/session.php From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 00:54:42 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 22:54:42 -0700 Subject: Interesting drive failure... Message-ID: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> I'm attempting to dump an image of the Ridge 32/330's original SMD drive (A Fujitsu MK2322) -- I'd been running it off of a spare, because I didn't want to disturb what was on the original drive until I could back it up. Now that the spare has died I figured it would be an opportune time... The Ridge "DISCUTIL" tool (loaded from QIC) is pretty powerful, and amongst its weapons is the "DS" command which will dump a sector of the disk to screen, in ASCII HEX. The Ridge has been running for the past eight days dumping the entire 168mb disk, in HEX, at 9600 baud. Yes, I'm insane. Along the way I discovered that the integrity of the data on the disk is pretty poor. There are lots of bad sectors. In particular surfaces 2 and 3 are completely unreadable for all 823 cylinders, surfaces 4 and 8 are marginal most of the time. After a lot of retries I've managed to get most of everything (except for surfaces 2 and 3 which yield no data at all). So I figured that heads 2 and 3 are toast -- perhaps bad analog logic, maybe something in the digital logic that selects the head, maybe even bad heads, who knows. DISCUTIL also has a "FORMAT" command that will format individual cylinders, on a specified surface. So after I'd read out everything possible to save, I tried it on a cylinder (801) known to have trouble sectors, that also containing all zeros so I wouldn't wipe out anything vital. After doing a format on cyl 801, head 2 I could read all sectors on that cylinder/head without issue. Same with head 3, 4 and 8. Suspecting a possible addressing fault I tried reading every surface on cylinder 801 after formatting all surfaces on that cylinder, and they all read without issue. (I'd expect that if, for example, when I asked the disk to format surface 2 it actually formatted surface 5, then reading surface 5 later would fail due to an invalid sector header for surface 5...) So, I suppose this is somewhat good news in that I may be able to use the drive, but I wonder what would cause the data on the disk to fail in such a manner (and I'm still hesitant to reformat the drive without recovering stuff off of surfaces 2/3...) Any thoughts? - Josh From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 04:18:52 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 11:18:52 +0200 Subject: Late-model Hercules card In-Reply-To: <5536E20B.4090401@sydex.com> References: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> <5536E20B.4090401@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 22 April 2015 at 01:49, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A related episode was the deployment of monochrome VGA monitors. > Significantly less expense than the color ones. I liked those. I still had 1 in use, and a spare, before I moved to Czechia. It took quite some fiddling to get the actual correct non-generic driver installed (into Windows Server 2008) for the onboard video of an HP Proliant ML110 server (not G-anything, original, revision 1), then I could tell it that it had a VGA 640*480 monitor fitted. The min specs for the OS are 800*600 in 256 colours or something, but I got it into a half-nelson and forced it to admit that it did know what VGA was and it did work. Meant I could have a neat little 12" mono VGA console on the server, standing on top of the pedestal server case and /still/ fitting underneath my dining table. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jws at jwsss.com Wed Apr 22 05:52:39 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 03:52:39 -0700 Subject: Late-model Hercules card In-Reply-To: References: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> <5536E20B.4090401@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55377D77.8000204@jwsss.com> On 4/22/2015 2:18 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 22 April 2015 at 01:49, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >A related episode was the deployment of monochrome VGA monitors. >> >Significantly less expense than the color ones. I have a 7" full resolution VGA Monochrome monitor of some odd vintage. When I found it at the TRW swapmeet, I grabbed it by the cables and shoved I think $20 to the guy for it, and had other hands going for it before the exchange was done (one off). every row i'd have someone wanting to go buy one. This is a CRT, and not a flat screen, and is also 1024 x 768, I think if not higher. Perfect for my firewall, and lower power than the alternatives then to live full time on the UPS. I have the phone, firewall, display and one system with a flatscreen on battery, and can withstand a 30min dead power event w/o any problem, and also have an extra system that can go out, on the chance that the cable people didn't loose power to their hardware. I will probably switch to some of the 7" or smaller displays at some time for at least the displays on the system. The 7" VGA crt is probably 12 or 15 years old now, and going fine, don't know how long TFT will last. thanks jim From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 06:25:31 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 06:25:31 -0500 Subject: Late-model Hercules card In-Reply-To: References: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> <5536E20B.4090401@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5537852B.4080706@gmail.com> On 04/22/2015 04:18 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 22 April 2015 at 01:49, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> A related episode was the deployment of monochrome VGA monitors. >> Significantly less expense than the color ones. > > > I liked those. I still had 1 in use, and a spare, before I moved to Czechia. Me too. I'm pretty sure mine was made by IBM. Very crisp picture, 12" screen, lightweight, and didn't suck a lot of power. I have no idea what happened to it :( J. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 22 09:31:40 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:31:40 -0500 Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:54 AM 4/22/2015, Josh Dersch wrote: >So I figured that heads 2 and 3 are toast -- perhaps bad analog logic, maybe something in the digital logic that selects the head, maybe even bad heads, who knows. Maybe a drive recovery place will take it on as a charity / learning opportunity. They probably don't see drives that old that often. If those two heads are bad, maybe there's a way to swap them with other heads. - John From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 22 10:23:47 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 17:23:47 +0200 Subject: HP2000/Access TimeShare BASIC (pics) In-Reply-To: <002201d07c7c$8deb9580$a9c2c080$@classiccmp.org> References: <002201d07c7c$8deb9580$a9c2c080$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006601d07d10$54ae4440$fe0accc0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jay West > Verzonden: dinsdag 21 april 2015 23:46 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: HP2000/Access TimeShare BASIC (pics) > > My latest HP2000/Access TSB system build came to life today. Pictures at: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/ > > > > There is still a lot of "cosmetic work" before I'm satisfied with it. Some detail > parts need to be added, some additional cleaning and cable dressing, etc. All the > doors, filler panels, and some trim needs to be put back in place. This system has > passed extended (overnight) diagnostics on every board, microcode option, and > peripheral. > > > > There is an issue with the 7906D - it works ok, but there is some occasional > bearing noise. I have another 7906D sitting there ready to rackmount but I was > so close I just couldn't wait for that and had to fire it up and load the OS. The > 29425D cabinet is opened up only because I was poking at it to check for the > source of the noise. > > > > Unlike my dual 2100A/S TSB system, this one is destined for some development > work and I'll be adding a small (read low power) tape/disk combo, a "flash" > based paper tape reader/punch, and some baci boards which TSB doesn't > support ("currently" cough cough). The only item that needs to be added is the > dual sync modem board set. yes, I'm going to do HP2000/Access RJE to Hercules > ;) > > > > J Jay, Nice work, looks great. Keep up the good work, like they say ;) -Rik From kirkbdavis at hush.com Wed Apr 22 10:33:22 2015 From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (kirkbdavis at hush.com) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 08:33:22 -0700 Subject: HP2000/Access TimeShare BASIC (pics) In-Reply-To: <006601d07d10$54ae4440$fe0accc0$@xs4all.nl> References: <002201d07c7c$8deb9580$a9c2c080$@classiccmp.org> <006601d07d10$54ae4440$fe0accc0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20150422153323.187F2403FF@smtp.hushmail.com> Yes very nice. Love the login pictures. I remember trying to get them to give me a Axxx when I used the system at my high school. Kirk On April 22, 2015 at 8:23 AM, "Rik Bos" wrote: > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jay >West >> Verzonden: dinsdag 21 april 2015 23:46 >> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Onderwerp: HP2000/Access TimeShare BASIC (pics) >> >> My latest HP2000/Access TSB system build came to life today. >Pictures at: >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/ >> >> >> >> There is still a lot of "cosmetic work" before I'm satisfied >with it. Some >detail >> parts need to be added, some additional cleaning and cable >dressing, etc. >All the >> doors, filler panels, and some trim needs to be put back in >place. This >system has >> passed extended (overnight) diagnostics on every board, >microcode option, >and >> peripheral. >> >> >> >> There is an issue with the 7906D - it works ok, but there is some >occasional >> bearing noise. I have another 7906D sitting there ready to >rackmount but I >was >> so close I just couldn't wait for that and had to fire it up and >load the >OS. The >> 29425D cabinet is opened up only because I was poking at it to >check for >the >> source of the noise. >> >> >> >> Unlike my dual 2100A/S TSB system, this one is destined for some >development >> work and I'll be adding a small (read low power) tape/disk >combo, a >"flash" >> based paper tape reader/punch, and some baci boards which TSB >doesn't >> support ("currently" cough cough). The only item that needs to >be added is >the >> dual sync modem board set. yes, I'm going to do HP2000/Access >RJE to >Hercules >> ;) >> >> >> >> J > >Jay, > >Nice work, looks great. >Keep up the good work, like they say ;) > >-Rik From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 22 11:56:37 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 11:56:37 -0500 Subject: Arlington, TX "vintage computer museum" closing, close-out sale Message-ID: http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/syd/4990079844.html - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 12:40:26 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 17:40:26 +0000 Subject: Late-model Hercules card In-Reply-To: <55377D77.8000204@jwsss.com> References: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> <5536E20B.4090401@sydex.com> , <55377D77.8000204@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I have a 7" full resolution VGA Monochrome monitor of some odd vintage. > When I found it at the TRW swapmeet, I grabbed it by the cables and > shoved I think $20 to the guy for it, and had other hands going for it > before the exchange was done (one off). every row i'd have someone > wanting to go buy one. There was a UK company called Kent Modular Electronics (KME) who made a range of small (9" and smaller) VGA mono and colour monitors as chassis units to build into other equipment. Not cheap, but from what I heard they worked very well. I have the service manuals for a couple of them somewhere, but no actual units. KME, by the way, made the monitor for the UK PERQ 2T1 and the Whitechapel MG1 (amongst others). Mildly off-subject but a few years ago there were 5" (or so) mono analogue TVs sole by various shops (including Maplin), As well as the UHF aerial input they had composite video (TV rate, obvious) inputs. Run off internal C cells (if you are a millionaire), 12V DC or a wall wart. I find one to be very useful on the workbench when repairing home micros and the like, you can reaad 40 columns on it, and it is small enough not to get in the way. No idea where you'd find one now. -tony From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed Apr 22 14:39:28 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:39:28 -0500 Subject: Arlington, TX "vintage computer museum" closing, close-out sale In-Reply-To: <20150422170124.2E73E2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20150422170124.2E73E2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <80BCB4D6-A0CB-409E-8392-F0B24D8E24D9@thecomputervalet.com> > On Apr 22, 2015, at 11:56 AM, John Foust wrote: > > http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/syd/4990079844.html I can't speak to the individual items and their relative condition. However, my sense is they know what they have and the prices are higher than what you'd typically find on eBay. I visited there a few weeks back. Cheers, Mike Whalen > On Apr 22, 2015, at 11:56 AM, John Foust wrote: > > > http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/syd/4990079844.html > > - John > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 22 14:56:28 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:56:28 -0500 Subject: HP2000/Access TimeShare BASIC (pics) In-Reply-To: <20150422153323.187F2403FF@smtp.hushmail.com> References: <002201d07c7c$8deb9580$a9c2c080$@classiccmp.org> <006601d07d10$54ae4440$fe0accc0$@xs4all.nl> <20150422153323.187F2403FF@smtp.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <001f01d07d36$6c78dab0$456a9010$@classiccmp.org> Kirk wrote... ---- Yes very nice. Love the login pictures. I remember trying to get them to give me a Axxx when I used the system at my high school. ---- At my high school, most students shared "class accounts" (Mxxx for Math, Lxxx for Language, Pxxx for Physics, etc. and usually xxx was the course number). If you wanted your own personal account you were given a 10 page list of problems to solve on the computer. There were only a few lines describing each problem, so there was like 100 problems. They ran the gamut from simple programming stuff to some fairly complex file I/O. Sidebar - I still have that sheet of problems, will try to remember to post it. Rather fun stuff for a BASIC environment. Anyways - once you solved all the problems and the computer center operator checked all your programs to make sure they were right, then you got your own S0xx account (S for student). Student accounts were handed out in ascending order starting with S001, so the "holy grail"/"ultimate honor" was to get assigned the S000 account because it was the "Group Master" of course for S001 through S099. I did get S000 my Junior year :) J From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 22 15:07:59 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:07:59 +0100 Subject: Arlington, TX "vintage computer museum" closing, close-out sale In-Reply-To: <80BCB4D6-A0CB-409E-8392-F0B24D8E24D9@thecomputervalet.com> References: <20150422170124.2E73E2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> <80BCB4D6-A0CB-409E-8392-F0B24D8E24D9@thecomputervalet.com> Message-ID: <5537FF9F.60305@btinternet.com> I'm in England so I have no interest in any of these items. However as soon as I see a don't touch notice alarms go off. It usually means theres something wrong with these items but we don't want you to know. Never buy anything without a good hands on testing. We have a name for this type of item 'Landfill' no not where it should go but where it probaly came from. On 22/04/2015 20:39, Mike Whalen wrote: >> On Apr 22, 2015, at 11:56 AM, John Foust wrote: >> >> http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/syd/4990079844.htm > I can't speak to the individual items and their relative condition. However, my sense is they know what they have and the prices are higher than what you'd typically find on eBay. I isited there a few weeks back. > > Cheer > Mike Whalen > >> On Apr 22, 2015, at 11:56 AM, John Foust wrote: >> >> >> http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/syd/4990079844.html >> >> - John >> From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed Apr 22 15:09:42 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 15:09:42 -0500 Subject: Arlington, TX "vintage computer museum" closing, close-out sale In-Reply-To: <5537FF9F.60305@btinternet.com> References: <20150422170124.2E73E2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> <80BCB4D6-A0CB-409E-8392-F0B24D8E24D9@thecomputervalet.com> <5537FF9F.60305@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <8F1F3A22-DF3C-4D57-AC19-7F566E138B1E@thecomputervalet.com> Well, to be sure, they will let you inspect but I doubt they'll let you do a power up test. Also... Well, let's just say there are particularly interesting specimens in the front windows that have been destroyed by UV and dust. I seem to recall an Osborne 1 in that condition. :-( Cheers, Mike Whalen > On Apr 22, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > I'm in England so I have no interest in any of these items. However as soon as I see a don't touch notice alarms go off. > It usually means theres something wrong with these items but we don't want you to know. > > Never buy anything without a good hands on testing. We have a name for this type of item 'Landfill' no not where it should go but where it probaly came from. > > > > > On 22/04/2015 20:39, Mike Whalen wrote: >>> On Apr 22, 2015, at 11:56 AM, John Foust wrote: >>> >>> http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/syd/4990079844.htm >> I can't speak to the individual items and their relative condition. However, my sense is they know what they have and the prices are higher than what you'd typically find on eBay. I isited there a few weeks back. >> >> Cheer >> Mike Whalen >> >>> On Apr 22, 2015, at 11:56 AM, John Foust wrote: >>> >>> >>> http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/syd/4990079844.html >>> >>> - John > From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Wed Apr 22 16:27:45 2015 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 23:27:45 +0200 Subject: Teleprint TP-3328 ASR 33 Message-ID: <55381251.4030005@familie-rauhut.eu> Hello all together! At the moment i try to bring back a TTY from Teleprint to life. It is a TP-3328. A labeled Teletype ASR33. It looks like the original ASR 33. Differences are the missing off position on the on/off/local switch. The Motor of the ASR starts up at every key touch and stops after a letter ist printed. The Elektronic part at the right is also different. My problem is the current loop connection. The molex plug no. 2 and the terminal strip below did not exist in my tty like in the original ASR manuals described. Has any one information about the TTY`s current loop interface? Marco * Englisch - erkannt * Englisch * Deutsch * Englisch * Deutsch From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Apr 22 17:26:21 2015 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 23:26:21 +0100 Subject: Late-model Hercules card In-Reply-To: References: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> <5536E20B.4090401@sydex.com> , <55377D77.8000204@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5538200D.3030108@philpem.me.uk> On 22/04/15 18:40, tony duell wrote: > Mildly off-subject but a few years ago there were 5" (or so) mono analogue > TVs sole by various shops (including Maplin), As well as the UHF aerial input they > had composite video (TV rate, obvious) inputs. Run off internal C cells (if you are > a millionaire), 12V DC or a wall wart. I find one to be very useful on the workbench > when repairing home micros and the like, you can reaad 40 columns on it, and it > is small enough not to get in the way. No idea where you'd find one now. I've got one somewhere. I've also got a successor - a little TFT monitor intended as a reversing camera monitor for cars. Runs from 12V, takes PAL or NTSC composite in, good enough to read 40 columns (at least) and maybe 80 too. One of these days I should feed it Mode 0 from the Master 128 and see what happens... Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 22 17:33:10 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 15:33:10 -0700 Subject: Late-model Hercules card In-Reply-To: <5538200D.3030108@philpem.me.uk> References: <5534F428.9090004@gmail.com> <55363E25.9040800@gmail.com> <5536E20B.4090401@sydex.com> , <55377D77.8000204@jwsss.com> <5538200D.3030108@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <553821A6.8080606@sydex.com> For a time, one of the Chinese importers offered a home security system with a B&W 5" (or so) CRT for about USD$60 (including cameras). I was tempted for the monitor, but couldn't think of a reason. Still, CCTV may be one of the last holdouts for small NTSC CRT monochrome monitors. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Wed Apr 22 17:54:14 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 15:54:14 -0700 Subject: Arlington, TX "vintage computer museum" closing, close-out sale In-Reply-To: <8F1F3A22-DF3C-4D57-AC19-7F566E138B1E@thecomputervalet.com> References: <20150422170124.2E73E2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> <80BCB4D6-A0CB-409E-8392-F0B24D8E24D9@thecomputervalet.com> <5537FF9F.60305@btinternet.com> <8F1F3A22-DF3C-4D57-AC19-7F566E138B1E@thecomputervalet.com> Message-ID: <55382696.2080302@jwsss.com> On 4/22/2015 1:09 PM, Mike Whalen wrote: > Well, to be sure, they will let you inspect but I doubt they'll let you do a power up test. > > Also... Well, let's just say there are particularly interesting specimens in the front windows that have been destroyed by UV and dust. I seem to recall an Osborne 1 in that condition. :-( > > Cheers, > > Mike Whalen > >> On Apr 22, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> I'm in England so I have no interest in any of these items. However as soon as I see a don't touch notice alarms go off. >> It usually means theres something wrong with these items but we don't want you to know. >> >> Never buy anything without a good hands on testing. We have a name for this type of item 'Landfill' no not where it should go but where it probaly came from. >> >> >> >> > Is this John Keys, or someone else? John, hope you still have your collection going if this isn't you. thanks jim From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed Apr 22 18:16:25 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 18:16:25 -0500 Subject: Arlington, TX "vintage computer museum" closing, close-out sale In-Reply-To: <55382696.2080302@jwsss.com> References: <20150422170124.2E73E2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> <80BCB4D6-A0CB-409E-8392-F0B24D8E24D9@thecomputervalet.com> <5537FF9F.60305@btinternet.com> <8F1F3A22-DF3C-4D57-AC19-7F566E138B1E@thecomputervalet.com> <55382696.2080302@jwsss.com> Message-ID: It's a storefront. They sell used and new electronics for hobbyists and industry. They're going out of business. And the link posted here now 404s. Cheers, Mike Whalen > On Apr 22, 2015, at 5:54 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > >> On 4/22/2015 1:09 PM, Mike Whalen wrote: >> Well, to be sure, they will let you inspect but I doubt they'll let you do a power up test. >> >> Also... Well, let's just say there are particularly interesting specimens in the front windows that have been destroyed by UV and dust. I seem to recall an Osborne 1 in that condition. :-( >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mike Whalen >> >>> On Apr 22, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>> I'm in England so I have no interest in any of these items. However as soon as I see a don't touch notice alarms go off. >>> It usually means theres something wrong with these items but we don't want you to know. >>> >>> Never buy anything without a good hands on testing. We have a name for this type of item 'Landfill' no not where it should go but where it probaly came from. >>> >>> >>> >>> > Is this John Keys, or someone else? John, hope you still have your collection going if this isn't you. > > thanks > jim > From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed Apr 22 18:21:44 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 18:21:44 -0500 Subject: Arlington, TX "vintage computer museum" closing, close-out sale In-Reply-To: References: <20150422170124.2E73E2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> <80BCB4D6-A0CB-409E-8392-F0B24D8E24D9@thecomputervalet.com> <5537FF9F.60305@btinternet.com> <8F1F3A22-DF3C-4D57-AC19-7F566E138B1E@thecomputervalet.com> <55382696.2080302@jwsss.com> Message-ID: New link? http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/syd/4990079844.html No, that?s the same one. Must not work on mobile devices... Cheers, m On April 22, 2015 at 6:16:26 PM, Mike Whalen (mikew at thecomputervalet.com) wrote: It's a storefront. They sell used and new electronics for hobbyists and industry. They're going out of business. And the link posted here now 404s. Cheers, Mike Whalen > On Apr 22, 2015, at 5:54 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > >> On 4/22/2015 1:09 PM, Mike Whalen wrote: >> Well, to be sure, they will let you inspect but I doubt they'll let you do a power up test. >> >> Also... Well, let's just say there are particularly interesting specimens in the front windows that have been destroyed by UV and dust. I seem to recall an Osborne 1 in that condition. :-( >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mike Whalen >> >>> On Apr 22, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>> I'm in England so I have no interest in any of these items. However as soon as I see a don't touch notice alarms go off. >>> It usually means theres something wrong with these items but we don't want you to know. >>> >>> Never buy anything without a good hands on testing. We have a name for this type of item 'Landfill' no not where it should go but where it probaly came from. >>> >>> >>> >>> > Is this John Keys, or someone else? John, hope you still have your collection going if this isn't you. > > thanks > jim > From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed Apr 22 18:32:03 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 18:32:03 -0500 Subject: Arlington, TX "vintage computer museum" closing, close-out sale In-Reply-To: References: <20150422170124.2E73E2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> <80BCB4D6-A0CB-409E-8392-F0B24D8E24D9@thecomputervalet.com> <5537FF9F.60305@btinternet.com> <8F1F3A22-DF3C-4D57-AC19-7F566E138B1E@thecomputervalet.com> <55382696.2080302@jwsss.com> Message-ID: This is the business: Electronic Discount Sales Inc 908 E Pioneer Pkwy Arlington, TX 76010 Cheers, m On April 22, 2015 at 6:21:43 PM, Mike Whalen (mikew at thecomputervalet.com) wrote: New link? http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/syd/4990079844.html No, that?s the same one. Must not work on mobile devices... Cheers, m On April 22, 2015 at 6:16:26 PM, Mike Whalen (mikew at thecomputervalet.com) wrote: It's a storefront. They sell used and new electronics for hobbyists and industry. They're going out of business. And the link posted here now 404s. Cheers, Mike Whalen > On Apr 22, 2015, at 5:54 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > >> On 4/22/2015 1:09 PM, Mike Whalen wrote: >> Well, to be sure, they will let you inspect but I doubt they'll let you do a power up test. >> >> Also... Well, let's just say there are particularly interesting specimens in the front windows that have been destroyed by UV and dust. I seem to recall an Osborne 1 in that condition. :-( >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mike Whalen >> >>> On Apr 22, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>> I'm in England so I have no interest in any of these items. However as soon as I see a don't touch notice alarms go off. >>> It usually means theres something wrong with these items but we don't want you to know. >>> >>> Never buy anything without a good hands on testing. We have a name for this type of item 'Landfill' no not where it should go but where it probaly came from. >>> >>> >>> >>> > Is this John Keys, or someone else? John, hope you still have your collection going if this isn't you. > > thanks > jim > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Apr 22 21:38:43 2015 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:38:43 -0400 Subject: IMSAI chassis color/texture... Message-ID: <09e701d07d6e$a17af990$e470ecb0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> I remember a conversation about this subject from many years ago that never came to any conclusion. Has anyone discovered any "paint codes" or other definitive descriptions for the finish on the upper case of an IMSAI? I'm thinking of having my worst case (multiple scrapes and scratches, several permanent stains) refinished. Bill S. From philip at neoncluster.com Wed Apr 22 21:44:21 2015 From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:44:21 +1200 Subject: IMSAI chassis color/texture... In-Reply-To: <09e701d07d6e$a17af990$e470ecb0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <09e701d07d6e$a17af990$e470ecb0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: Once I get home, I could probably cross reference with a pantone color for you. > On Apr 23, 2015, at 2:38 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > I remember a conversation about this subject from many > years ago that never came to any conclusion. Has anyone > discovered any "paint codes" or other definitive descriptions > for the finish on the upper case of an IMSAI? I'm thinking > of having my worst case (multiple scrapes and scratches, > several permanent stains) refinished. > > Bill S. > > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 21:56:20 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:56:20 -0400 Subject: Teleprint TP-3328 ASR 33 In-Reply-To: <55381251.4030005@familie-rauhut.eu> References: <55381251.4030005@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: Greenkeys mailing list is where you will find the most information on teleprinters (not just Teletype Corp. machines, but Kleinschmidt, Siemens, Creed...). Obligatory Link: On 22 April 2015 at 17:27, Marco Rauhut wrote: > Hello all together! > > At the moment i try to bring back a TTY from Teleprint to life. It is a > TP-3328. A labeled Teletype ASR33. It looks like the original ASR 33. > Differences are the missing off position on the on/off/local switch. The > Motor of the ASR starts up at every key touch and stops after a letter ist > printed. The Elektronic part at the right is also different. > My problem is the current loop connection. The molex plug no. 2 and the > terminal strip below did not exist in my tty like in the original ASR > manuals described. Has any one information about the TTY`s current loop > interface? > > Marco > > * Englisch - erkannt > * Englisch > * Deutsch > > * Englisch > * Deutsch > > -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From janprunk at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 06:22:57 2015 From: janprunk at gmail.com (Jan Prunk) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 13:22:57 +0200 Subject: Giveaway - 2 large boxes of VAX/VMS literature Message-ID: Hello ! I would like to find a second home for my vintage VAX/VMS literature. Description: I have two very large boxes of VAX/VMS material, approximate dimension of one box is 55 x 40 x 40 centimeters. I haven't looked up about what topics the material is, but I can do so if you are interested to obtain it. These are Plastic maps with paper printed material in them, original VAX/VMS manuals since 1980s probably. Condition: The condition of the paper material isn't perfect, these were held in a basement in an open box, so some dust have been collected on the manuals over the years, but everything is still in a readable form. Paper is since the 1980, so some pages might of have become yellowish or slightly lost the black print, due to aging.There might be some bended prints too, however plastic maps have protected the inner papers quite well. Shipping: Shipping comes from Slovenia, Europe. As we don't have any cheap international couriers, I managed to found the cheapest option for 50 eur/box, that would be 100 eur for both boxes with a courier that provides the tracking number and a 500 eur protection for the lost package, so I think it's quite good. Price: I am willing to donate this material to a person who is interested free of charge, however if multiple people apply through the mailing list, I'd be glad to offer the material to the one, who wants to add a small extra to get this material, but the most important to me is that it gets in the hand of the VAX/VMS lovers into a second home. Also I expect the buyer to cover the minimum of shipping costs, that is 100 EUR, before I ship the material. I can collect bank wire or Paypal payment. I would prefer to ship the material within the European Union as shipping outside EU might be much more expenssive. This material has to be shipped soon, I cannot store it for very long, it should go out latest by the end of this month. About me: I am the VAX enthusiast and founder of the #vax channel @ freenode, so if you wish to live-chat with me you can find me there, otherwise please e-mail me off the list to janprunk -at- gmail.com if you are interested about the material. Kind regards, Jan From janprunk at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 06:22:57 2015 From: janprunk at gmail.com (Jan Prunk) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 13:22:57 +0200 Subject: Giveaway - 2 large boxes of VAX/VMS literature Message-ID: Hello ! I would like to find a second home for my vintage VAX/VMS literature. Description: I have two very large boxes of VAX/VMS material, approximate dimension of one box is 55 x 40 x 40 centimeters. I haven't looked up about what topics the material is, but I can do so if you are interested to obtain it. These are Plastic maps with paper printed material in them, original VAX/VMS manuals since 1980s probably. Condition: The condition of the paper material isn't perfect, these were held in a basement in an open box, so some dust have been collected on the manuals over the years, but everything is still in a readable form. Paper is since the 1980, so some pages might of have become yellowish or slightly lost the black print, due to aging.There might be some bended prints too, however plastic maps have protected the inner papers quite well. Shipping: Shipping comes from Slovenia, Europe. As we don't have any cheap international couriers, I managed to found the cheapest option for 50 eur/box, that would be 100 eur for both boxes with a courier that provides the tracking number and a 500 eur protection for the lost package, so I think it's quite good. Price: I am willing to donate this material to a person who is interested free of charge, however if multiple people apply through the mailing list, I'd be glad to offer the material to the one, who wants to add a small extra to get this material, but the most important to me is that it gets in the hand of the VAX/VMS lovers into a second home. Also I expect the buyer to cover the minimum of shipping costs, that is 100 EUR, before I ship the material. I can collect bank wire or Paypal payment. I would prefer to ship the material within the European Union as shipping outside EU might be much more expenssive. This material has to be shipped soon, I cannot store it for very long, it should go out latest by the end of this month. About me: I am the VAX enthusiast and founder of the #vax channel @ freenode, so if you wish to live-chat with me you can find me there, otherwise please e-mail me off the list to janprunk -at- gmail.com if you are interested about the material. Kind regards, Jan From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 15:17:41 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 16:17:41 -0400 Subject: Arlington, TX "vintage computer museum" closing, close-out sale In-Reply-To: <8F1F3A22-DF3C-4D57-AC19-7F566E138B1E@thecomputervalet.com> References: <20150422170124.2E73E2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> <80BCB4D6-A0CB-409E-8392-F0B24D8E24D9@thecomputervalet.com> <5537FF9F.60305@btinternet.com> <8F1F3A22-DF3C-4D57-AC19-7F566E138B1E@thecomputervalet.com> Message-ID: I gave them a call, there seems to be quite a bit of interesting stuff there, but they do not want to ship any of it. Friendly on the phone, sad to see it's closing up seems like a neat place. It's a shame it's not anywhere near me or i would have seriously considered heading over there to see, even if the prices are a little high. Hopefully it all goes to a good home. From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Apr 22 19:04:33 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:04:33 -0400 Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150423000433.GA24001@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 10:54:42PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So, I suppose this is somewhat good news in that I may be able to > use the drive, but I wonder what would cause the data on the disk to > fail in such a manner (and I'm still hesitant to reformat the drive > without recovering stuff off of surfaces 2/3...) Any thoughts? > Head alignment off on those heads. Can the drive microstep or any other way to change the head alignement? You might be able to recover the data that way. I have seen an MFM drive with a few heads so out of alighment that you got data from track n+1 on one head and n on another. Not sure how you cause that without more serious damage to the drive. For MFM drives orientation or finger on the stepper motor helps to recover data when the heads are off. Probably doesn't work with your drive. From mark at markesystems.com Wed Apr 22 19:52:46 2015 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 17:52:46 -0700 Subject: Visual Basic Question Message-ID: >> The phrase "standard Windows 16bit DLLs" means Windows 3.1 DLLs. Such >> DLL's no longer work in a modern windows. If they directly access the >> hardware then they will not work on any NT based windows such as >> Windows/2000, Windows/XP, Vista, or 7, 8 or 9. Nor will they work on any >> 64-Bit windows full stop. 64-Bit windows does not support 16-bit code. >> If you have a Windows/95, 98 or ME environment then the code may work. > >They should work with 32 bit versions of windows as the 16 bit thunking >layer is still present. YMMV of course. Actually, VB3 works perfectly well under all 32-bit versions of Windows up through XP; it breaks at Windows 7 (and presumably Vista). Under all the NT-based versions (NT, 2000, and XP), Windows launches a virtual machine call NTVDM.EXE (NT Virtual DOS Machine), upon which runs yet another emulator WOW.EXE (Windows on Windows). This latter emulator presents the non-preemptive message-passing architecture of Windows 3.1 to all the 16-bit Windows applications (like VB3) that run upon it. This actually worked remarkably well; I?ve personally supported an application for 20 years that is written in VB3, including adding new features all that time ? even a Web server! There was also a technique that allowed calling 32-bit DLLs from the 16-bit application. There were a couple of bugs, of course, but generally it was a very stable solution to supporting legacy code. There was even a work-around to NT?s rigorous defense of direct hardware access which continued to work through XP. Windows 7 broke all that. (Presumably Vista actually did, but I?ve never seen a Vista system in the wild...) ~~ Mark Moulding From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Thu Apr 23 01:38:59 2015 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke =?iso-8859-1?Q?St=FCber?=) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 08:38:59 +0200 Subject: Looking for Sun 68k machines, from time to time... In-Reply-To: <552DAF94.6010402@jsigle.com> References: <552DAF94.6010402@jsigle.com> Message-ID: <20150423063858.GP9453@cortexcerebri.geruempel.ddns.net> Hi J?rg, hi list, On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 02:23:48AM +0200, Joerg M. Sigle wrote: > from time to time I get sad that I don't have any Sun 3 around here > (and no DECstation either). there is a Sun 3/80 and a DECStation 3100 available in D?sseldorf, Germany. Also some more stuff, see quoted mail (in German). ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Georg Sassen Date: Apr 13, 2015 16:41 Subject: alte Workstations abzugeben Moin, sucht Ihr vielleicht alte kultige Rechner? H?tte hier noch ne fette VAX 4000/300, eine MicroVAX 3100, eine Sun Blade 1000 und eine Sparcstation 5 abzugeben. Zus?tzlich noch ein externes SCSI-CDROM von dem Suns brav booten. Au?erdem aus dem Keller IIRC eine Sun 3/80, eine Sparcstation 2 und eine DECStation 3100. Habt Ihr daran, ggfs. teilweise, Interesse oder w?sstet jemanden? Ansonsten bring ich den Kram schweren Herzens zum Recyclinghof, hab einfach keinen Platz mehr und die Kisten seit Jahren nicht mehr eingeschaltet. Georg ---------- End forwarded message ---------- If you're interested in those machines, drop me a note off-list and I'll send you his email address. Regards, Anke From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Apr 23 04:17:23 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 11:17:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Apr 2015, Josh Dersch wrote: > Fujitsu MK2322) -- I'd been running it off of a spare, because I didn't want [...] > pretty poor. There are lots of bad sectors. In particular surfaces 2 and 3 > are completely unreadable for all 823 cylinders, surfaces 4 and 8 are > marginal most of the time. After a lot of retries I've managed to get most > of everything (except for surfaces 2 and 3 which yield no data at all). I have several of that exact drive in different machines. They have all been formatted a long time ago and reveal *many* bad blocks. For example, one is in a PCD Cadmus (QBus 68020 machine) and one in our Zilog S8000. Especially the Zilog's drive is valuable as it contains the IMO only existing copy of the ZEUS operating system for the Model 32 (I'd *LOVE* to get hold of an image of the tape cartidges). My experience with reading out the contents of those drive (with my own-built simple ISA SMD interface) is that one has to do 1. many retries and 2. use all means that the drive provides to successfully read a track (i.e. offset+ and offset- commands). > So I figured that heads 2 and 3 are toast -- perhaps bad analog logic, maybe > something in the digital logic that selects the head, maybe even bad heads, > who knows. I don't think so. Old drives simply tend to get "weak". I suppose that the alignment of several heads changes slightly over the years. Christian From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 01:09:24 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 23:09:24 -0700 Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: <20150423000433.GA24001@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> <20150423000433.GA24001@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <55388C94.1020308@gmail.com> On 4/22/15 5:04 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 10:54:42PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: >> So, I suppose this is somewhat good news in that I may be able to >> use the drive, but I wonder what would cause the data on the disk to >> fail in such a manner (and I'm still hesitant to reformat the drive >> without recovering stuff off of surfaces 2/3...) Any thoughts? >> > Head alignment off on those heads. That makes sense. > Can the drive microstep or any other > way to change the head alignement? You might be able to recover the > data that way. According to the service manual one of the surfaces contains servo tracks used to position the heads, and all alignment is based on these tracks. If some of the heads are now out of alignment with those tracks I don't think there's anything to be done about it (but I've only skimmed the manual thus far). There does not appear to be anything I can do at the interface level, at any rate. I wonder, though, if perhaps running the drive in a different orientation (it's currently on its side) might have an effect on the wayward heads. Probably not, but it's worth a shot. I may try that tomorrow... > > I have seen an MFM drive with a few heads so out of alighment that > you got data from track n+1 on one head and n on another. Not sure > how you cause that without more serious damage to the drive. Yeah, I know nothing of the history of this machine, it seems to have been well treated aside from being left in a somewhat damp and rat-infested environment, no evidence of it being dropped. But then, the chassis on the Ridge is built like a tank so it might very well have been dropped a few feet to no obvious effect... > For MFM > drives orientation or finger on the stepper motor helps to recover > data when the heads are off. Probably doesn't work with your drive. > Yeah, there's no stepper to grab onto here. And if there was, it'd probably take my finger off when it moved, this drive means business :). Thanks, Josh From guy at cuillin.org.uk Thu Apr 23 01:57:12 2015 From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 07:57:12 +0100 Subject: Visual Basic Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At work we're still running a QuickBasic DOS app in Windows 7 32bit using WOW.EXE and NTVDM.EXE. Vista and Win7 did change some things that caused us problems but they were things like write access to the root of the C drive. The 64 bit versions of Vista and Win 7 don't have any WOW.EXE or NTVDM.EXE at all. On 23 April 2015 at 01:52, wrote: > >> The phrase "standard Windows 16bit DLLs" means Windows 3.1 DLLs. Such > >> DLL's no longer work in a modern windows. If they directly access the > >> hardware then they will not work on any NT based windows such as > >> Windows/2000, Windows/XP, Vista, or 7, 8 or 9. Nor will they work on any > >> 64-Bit windows full stop. 64-Bit windows does not support 16-bit code. > >> If you have a Windows/95, 98 or ME environment then the code may work. > > > >They should work with 32 bit versions of windows as the 16 bit thunking > >layer is still present. YMMV of course. > > Actually, VB3 works perfectly well under all 32-bit versions of Windows up > through XP; it breaks at Windows 7 (and presumably Vista). Under all the > NT-based versions (NT, 2000, and XP), Windows launches a virtual machine > call NTVDM.EXE (NT Virtual DOS Machine), upon which runs yet another > emulator WOW.EXE (Windows on Windows). This latter emulator presents the > non-preemptive message-passing architecture of Windows 3.1 to all the > 16-bit Windows applications (like VB3) that run upon it. > > This actually worked remarkably well; I?ve personally supported an > application for 20 years that is written in VB3, including adding new > features all that time ? even a Web server! There was also a technique > that allowed calling 32-bit DLLs from the 16-bit application. There were a > couple of bugs, of course, but generally it was a very stable solution to > supporting legacy code. There was even a work-around to NT?s rigorous > defense of direct hardware access which continued to work through XP. > > Windows 7 broke all that. (Presumably Vista actually did, but I?ve never > seen a Vista system in the wild...) > ~~ > Mark Moulding > > > -- 4.4 > 5.4 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 23 07:25:08 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 07:25:08 -0500 Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: <55388C94.1020308@gmail.com> References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> <20150423000433.GA24001@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <55388C94.1020308@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 01:09 AM 4/23/2015, Josh Dersch wrote: >According to the service manual one of the surfaces contains servo tracks used to position the heads, and all alignment is based on these tracks. If some of the heads are now out of alignment with those tracks I don't think there's anything to be done about it The other danger would be that if the heads drifted out of alignment when the drive was in use. realigning the heads to the original servo track might put them out of alignment with where the last data was written. - John From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 23 09:33:31 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 07:33:31 -0700 Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: <20150423000433.GA24001@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> <20150423000433.GA24001@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <553902BB.5070705@bitsavers.org> On 4/22/15 5:04 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > Head alignment off on those heads. Can the drive microstep or any other > way to change the head alignement? You might be able to recover the > data that way. > Depending on how much work you wanted to put into it, you could always open the servo loop and drive the positioner externally with a microcontroller. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 23 10:05:17 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 08:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: <55388C94.1020308@gmail.com> References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> <20150423000433.GA24001@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <55388C94.1020308@gmail.com> Message-ID: > at any rate. I wonder, though, if perhaps running the drive in a different > orientation (it's currently on its side) might have an effect on the wayward > heads. Probably not, but it's worth a shot. I may try that tomorrow... On many drives, orientation certainly can have an effect. What orientation was it previously used in? Also thermal - have you tried chilling and heating the drive? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 23 11:20:04 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:20:04 +0000 Subject: IBM 5160 oddball fault In-Reply-To: <5536E01C.70703@gmail.com> References: <5536E01C.70703@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Does anyone have any ideas what might be going on? It doesn't quite seem > like a memory fault - possibly some sort of address decoding error? It's > almost like the video board is pulling display data from the wrong part of > memory, but I'm not sure that makes sense given that the board has its own > local RAM rather than relying on RAM on the system board. > To me this sounds like an address line fault on the expansion bus. The CPU thinks it's writing to a particular location in the CGA card's memory, but due to the fault it actually accesses another location. Yes, the cursor is generated by the 6845 on the CGA card. Have you tried the CGA card in different slots? Just in case it's a bad contact on the edge connector. Other than that, stick a logic probe on the address lines on the expansion slot and see if any are stuck high/low or always floating. -tony From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 23 11:48:14 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 09:48:14 -0700 Subject: IBM 5160 oddball fault In-Reply-To: References: <5536E01C.70703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5539224E.2050106@jwsss.com> On 4/23/2015 9:20 AM, tony duell wrote: > Yes, the cursor is generated by the 6845 on the CGA card. Since the messages start out skewed to the right, I'd consider that there is a stuck bit in the data written to whatever 6845 location controls that. If you can probe the bus and the data is okay most places, it may be noisy or corrupted to the slots. Obviously a lot of the memory has to work for the bios to pass and run, so that is suggesting some problems getting data to the interface slots, though most of that is working or the display card would have failed as well. Fault may be on the card data path as well, since so much other I/O is working fine. thanks jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 23 12:30:24 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 17:30:24 +0000 Subject: IBM 5160 oddball fault In-Reply-To: <5539224E.2050106@jwsss.com> References: <5536E01C.70703@gmail.com> , <5539224E.2050106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > > Yes, the cursor is generated by the 6845 on the CGA card. > Since the messages start out skewed to the right, I'd consider that > there is a stuck bit in the data written to whatever 6845 location > controls that. If you can probe the bus and the data is okay most > places, it may be noisy or corrupted to the slots. Obviously a lot of > the memory has to work for the bios to pass and run, so that is > suggesting some problems getting data to the interface slots, though > most of that is working or the display card would have failed as well. The cursor actually has nothing to do with where the data is written or appears. And I understood the cursor appeard correctly, that is in the location you would expect characters to be written, even though they are not. This suggests the 6845 is being set up correctly but that the processor is not writing to video memory where it thinks it is. I guess it's also possible that the 6845 is not being set up correctly to start the display at the first location of video memory. The problem then is that the 6845 _is_ being set up correctly to generate valid timing, etc. > > Fault may be on the card data path as well, since so much other I/O is > working fine. I believe this CGA card works correctly in another machine. -tony From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 23 12:58:10 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:58:10 -0700 Subject: IBM 5160 oddball fault In-Reply-To: References: <5536E01C.70703@gmail.com> , <5539224E.2050106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <553932B2.5000502@jwsss.com> On 4/23/2015 10:30 AM, tony duell wrote: > The cursor actually has nothing to do with where the data is written or > appears. And I understood the cursor appeard correctly, that is in the > location you would expect characters to be written, even though they > are not. This suggests the 6845 is being set up correctly but that the > processor is not writing to video memory where it thinks it is. > > I guess it's also possible that the 6845 is not being set up correctly > to start the display at the first location of video memory. The problem > then is that the 6845_is_ being set up correctly to generate valid timing, > etc. That was what i suggested. it looks like the video memory, and infact most all of the memory operations are working or basic would not come up, or the bios codes for memory errors would occur. So the mechanism which sets up the 6845 is broken, with the skew of the location of the first message being significant, if it is a multiple of perhaps one or more bits stuck when the 6845 registers are written. I suspect the setup of the addressing of where the display memory is not relevant, so once you mess up where in the memory to fetch from, all the memory accesses are skewed but still reference the data the processor is writing to that memory (which appears to be correct). since there is a lot of crap at the top which is not set up correctly, perhaps there is a skew factor to be guessed at from that number of lines or characters. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 23 13:06:15 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:06:15 +0000 Subject: IBM 5160 oddball fault In-Reply-To: <553932B2.5000502@jwsss.com> References: <5536E01C.70703@gmail.com> , <5539224E.2050106@jwsss.com> , <553932B2.5000502@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > > That was what i suggested. it looks like the video memory, and infact > most all of the memory operations are working or basic would not come > up, or the bios codes for memory errors would occur. Remember it does give the beeps for a video failure. > > So the mechanism which sets up the 6845 is broken, with the skew of the > location of the first message being significant, if it is a multiple of > perhaps one or more bits stuck when the 6845 registers are written. The 6845 and the logic on the CGA card must be good, it works in another machine. The 6845 must be initiallised essentially correctly, the thing gives a sensible video output. So it must be possible to write to the 6845. The next issue is that block of garbage on the start of the screen. AFAIK all the memory on the CGA card is initialised by the ROM BIOS. So even if the 6845 was being mis-set, it would have spaces, not garbage, there. > I suspect the setup of the addressing of where the display memory is not > relevant, so once you mess up where in the memory to fetch from, all the > memory accesses are skewed but still reference the data the processor is > writing to that memory (which appears to be correct). I think the reverse. The CGA card is set up correctly but the CPU can't write to the correct location in the video RAM due to an addressing problem. Possibly a faield buffer on the address bus somewhere. since there is a lot of crap at the top which is not set up correctly, perhaps there is a skew factor to be guessed at from that number of lines or characters. Isn't it exactly 1024 characters? This suggests a CPU address fault, not a 6845 one to me. -tony From t.gardner at computer.org Thu Apr 23 13:39:11 2015 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 11:39:11 -0700 Subject: Interesting drive failure Message-ID: <006c01d07df4$cb3e14c0$61ba3e40$@computer.org> On 4/22/15 5:04 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > Head alignment off on those heads. Can the drive microstep or any > other way to change the head alignement? You might be able to recover > the data that way. Some SMD drives could microstep and some controllers implemented it. Not sure about yr drive or its controller. BTW, I did several searches for info on the Fujitsu drive without any luck. If u can get a utility to loop on reading a specific track and head then you can apply finger pressure to the top of the carriage to force the head slightly off track in either direction to see if it reads better in one direction or the other. Be careful with both pressure and location because if the servo decides it's lost it will probably do a recalibration which happens quickly and with force - could damage the finger. With an oscilloscope u can observe the raw head signal (differentially) and see if it increases in one direction or another. U can probably read single ended if u can figure out where is the output of the read preamplifier (might even be right next to the head stack). With a schematic, power supply and variable resistor u can inject an offset signal into the servo loop and move the heads off tract to the maximum head amplitude position. Again start low and slowly increase the injected signal. Tom From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 23 14:18:14 2015 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 21:18:14 +0200 Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55394576.7000200@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 23.04.15 um 11:17 schrieb Christian Corti: > Old drives simply tend to get "weak". Seconded. Especially those 8" Fujitsus. Once upon a time the Unix-AG had a Sequent Symetry Ssomething with 8 x 80386DX20 CPUs... It used 8" Fujitsu SMD disks of 600-something MB capacity. The former operator of that machine at the local university instructed us to low level format the disks once every year. They simply loose data over time. -- tsch??, Jochen From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 23 15:13:54 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:13:54 -0700 Subject: Another mystery head quiz In-Reply-To: <5532EC64.3080708@sydex.com> References: <5532EC64.3080708@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55395282.1060807@sydex.com> On 04/18/2015 04:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > At any rate, who can identify the head in this photo: > > http://i.imgur.com/mN9v33b.jpg > > I'm pretty certain that I know. It's about 16mm square and is mounted > on a small PCB with lead connections. Okay, nobody venturing a guess after a week... This is one of the heads from a CDC 808 disk drive slider. Note the 6 channels. I say that I'm "pretty certain" because this may also be a head from the ill-fated 821 disk drive, sort of a "super 808", with more storage. I don't think the 821 ever made it into the wild, as it was shortly dumped in favor of the 844 "pack" drive that many know so well. Since the CEs were trashing all sorts of equipment at the time I grabbed this, it's hard to say. 72 disk platters, two spindle motors, hydraulic positioners, water cooling and somewhere around 6 ft. tall. I can't find a photo on the web, but I suspect there's one there. Usually referred to generically as a "6638" or "6639" type drive, which was really the name of the controller, not the drive itself. A brief overview of it can be found on Bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/peripheralCtlr/602500800A_6638_Disk_File_Training_Oct68.pdf --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 23 15:27:18 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:27:18 -0700 Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> <20150423000433.GA24001@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <55388C94.1020308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <553955A6.4050602@sydex.com> On 04/23/2015 08:05 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On many drives, orientation certainly can have an effect. What > orientation was it previously used in? I'm reminded of the early IMI "shoebox" drives (shoebox, I guess if you had size 21 feet). I think that they were mostly used by Corvus--clear tinted plastic top with a voice-coil positioner. If you lifted the front end of these things about an inch off horizontal, they'd cease to work--the positioner didn't have the moxie to overcome the force of gravity and would respond with sort of a squealing retry as it tried to push the heads uphill. --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 16:32:27 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 17:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: <553955A6.4050602@sydex.com> References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> <20150423000433.GA24001@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <55388C94.1020308@gmail.com> <553955A6.4050602@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Apr 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/23/2015 08:05 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On many drives, orientation certainly can have an effect. What >> orientation was it previously used in? > I'm reminded of the early IMI "shoebox" drives (shoebox, I guess if you had > size 21 feet). I think that they were mostly used by Corvus--clear tinted > plastic top with a voice-coil positioner. I have one of these. It's big, heavy beast. > If you lifted the front end of these things about an inch off horizontal, > they'd cease to work--the positioner didn't have the moxie to overcome the > force of gravity and would respond with sort of a squealing retry as it tried > to push the heads uphill. Alas, mine arrived non-functional and has remained that way due to a serious lack of time to devote to troubleshooting. -- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 16:55:56 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:55:56 -0500 Subject: IBM 5160 oddball fault In-Reply-To: References: <5536E01C.70703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55396A6C.6090208@gmail.com> On 04/23/2015 11:20 AM, tony duell wrote: >> >> Does anyone have any ideas what might be going on? It doesn't quite seem >> like a memory fault - possibly some sort of address decoding error? It's >> almost like the video board is pulling display data from the wrong part of >> memory, but I'm not sure that makes sense given that the board has its own >> local RAM rather than relying on RAM on the system board. >> > > To me this sounds like an address line fault on the expansion bus. The CPU thinks > it's writing to a particular location in the CGA card's memory, but due to the fault it > actually accesses another location. Yes, could be. CGA base address is B8000h, I think, and I'm seeing display text offset by 800h (2KB - 1024 characters plus 1024 attribute bytes). Assuming that the BIOS is responsible for clearing video memory (rather than it being a function of the CGA card itself), then my on-screen garbage could be down to whatever happens to be in the first 2KB of the CGA card's memory at power-on, and address bit A11 is jammed high on the expansion bus. What's puzzling if that's the case is why the ROM BASIC 'function key' strip appears normally at the bottom of the screen - I'd expect it to be stuck in a 'non visible' portion of the CGA card's memory. > Have you tried the CGA card in different slots? Just in case it's a bad contact > on the edge connector. Yes - the same thought had occurred to me. I'll take a look at the address lines (albeit just with a DMM, but that will hopefully be enough if it's a stuck bit) cheers Jules From cctalk at v6y.net Thu Apr 23 17:56:47 2015 From: cctalk at v6y.net (Justin Keogh) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 22:56:47 +0000 Subject: Hi and what are these? Message-ID: <20150423225647.481.85752@localhost.localdomain> Hey everyone, I am new to the list, have a collection of 60's and 70's hardware I am slowly selling, but these have me stumped (I am not an expert in vintage computing): http://imgur.com/0SHTT9A http://imgur.com/lJXbLjf http://imgur.com/uPasyFE http://imgur.com/W3eHes1 http://imgur.com/A5GuF4Z http://imgur.com/Wp2jKOb http://imgur.com/KEiE9It http://imgur.com/okDQVJQ Anyone know what either of them are called or what system(s) they go to? Sometime in the next month or so, I will be auctioning off a complete (working) Data General Nova 2, along with a few other very rare (from my searches on this list) big items. Thanks! -Justin Keogh http://www.ebay.com/usr/jkeogh0 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 18:18:21 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 00:18:21 +0100 Subject: Hi and what are these? In-Reply-To: <20150423225647.481.85752@localhost.localdomain> References: <20150423225647.481.85752@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Extender cards for fault finding. Allow you to get at the components on a card with a scope probe On Apr 23, 2015 11:58 PM, "Justin Keogh" wrote: > Hey everyone, I am new to the list, have a collection of 60's and 70's > hardware I am slowly selling, but these have me stumped (I am not an expert > in vintage computing): > > http://imgur.com/0SHTT9A > http://imgur.com/lJXbLjf > http://imgur.com/uPasyFE > http://imgur.com/W3eHes1 > http://imgur.com/A5GuF4Z > http://imgur.com/Wp2jKOb > http://imgur.com/KEiE9It > http://imgur.com/okDQVJQ > > > Anyone know what either of them are called or what system(s) they go to? > > Sometime in the next month or so, I will be auctioning off a complete > (working) Data General Nova 2, along with a few other very rare (from my > searches on this list) big items. > > Thanks! > > > -Justin Keogh > http://www.ebay.com/usr/jkeogh0 > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Apr 23 18:29:38 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:29:38 -0700 Subject: Hi and what are these? In-Reply-To: <20150423225647.481.85752@localhost.localdomain> References: <20150423225647.481.85752@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 2015-Apr-23, at 3:56 PM, Justin Keogh wrote: > Hey everyone, I am new to the list, have a collection of 60's and 70's hardware I am slowly selling, but these have me stumped (I am not an expert in vintage computing): > > http://imgur.com/0SHTT9A > http://imgur.com/lJXbLjf > http://imgur.com/uPasyFE > http://imgur.com/W3eHes1 > http://imgur.com/A5GuF4Z > http://imgur.com/Wp2jKOb > http://imgur.com/KEiE9It > http://imgur.com/okDQVJQ > > Anyone know what either of them are called or what system(s) they go to? The larger one (2*43=86 pin) is - as confirmed by the part number in the last photo - an extender for the HP 2116 processor series. Note also the key-slot between pins at the 18th-19th positions. It should be useful for all the machines in the HP 2100 series. (If you ebay it let us know, although I expect I'll be outbid.) > Sometime in the next month or so, I will be auctioning off a complete (working) Data General Nova 2, along with a few other very rare (from my searches on this list) big items. > > Thanks! From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 18:36:55 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:36:55 -0700 Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> <20150423000433.GA24001@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <55388C94.1020308@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > at any rate. I wonder, though, if perhaps running the drive in a >> different orientation (it's currently on its side) might have an effect on >> the wayward heads. Probably not, but it's worth a shot. I may try that >> tomorrow... >> > > On many drives, orientation certainly can have an effect. What > orientation was it previously used in? > The drive has always been mounted on its side in the Ridge CPU chassis. I may try flipping it to the other side and see if it makes any kind of difference. > > Also thermal - have you tried chilling and heating the drive? > I have not, I'd only consider that sort of thing as a last resort. What kind of temperatures would you recommend? Thanks, Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 18:40:05 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:40:05 -0700 Subject: Interesting drive failure... In-Reply-To: <553902BB.5070705@bitsavers.org> References: <553737A2.7030401@gmail.com> <20150423000433.GA24001@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <553902BB.5070705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 7:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/22/15 5:04 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > > Head alignment off on those heads. Can the drive microstep or any other >> way to change the head alignement? You might be able to recover the >> data that way. >> >> > Depending on how much work you wanted to put into it, you could always > open the > servo loop and drive the positioner externally with a microcontroller. > > > > I'm not sure it's worth that much effort. I've been poring over the dumped data and it's an RX/V 1.1 installation (which you've already archived) that looks like it was used in the development of Ibuki Common Lisp (or at least some form of Lisp development -- there are mails related to lisp discussions as well as Ibuki C/Lisp source code on the disk). That's moderately interesting but unless anyone out there is clamoring for this stuff I'm not going to expend too much more effort trying to recover data... - Josh From eallen at owt.com Thu Apr 23 20:56:45 2015 From: eallen at owt.com (Ernest G. Allen) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5160 oddball fault In-Reply-To: <55396A6C.6090208@gmail.com> References: <5536E01C.70703@gmail.com> <55396A6C.6090208@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Apr 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:55:56 > From: Jules Richardson > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General at classiccmp.org, > "Discussion at classiccmp.org": On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: IBM 5160 oddball fault > > On 04/23/2015 11:20 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have any ideas what might be going on? It doesn't quite seem > > > like a memory fault - possibly some sort of address decoding error? It's > > > almost like the video board is pulling display data from the wrong part of > > > memory, but I'm not sure that makes sense given that the board has its own > > > local RAM rather than relying on RAM on the system board. > > > > > > > To me this sounds like an address line fault on the expansion bus. The CPU > > thinks > > it's writing to a particular location in the CGA card's memory, but due to > > the fault it > > actually accesses another location. > > Yes, could be. CGA base address is B8000h, I think, and I'm seeing display > text offset by 800h (2KB - 1024 characters plus 1024 attribute bytes). > Assuming that the BIOS is responsible for clearing video memory (rather than > it being a function of the CGA card itself), then my on-screen garbage could > be down to whatever happens to be in the first 2KB of the CGA card's memory at > power-on, and address bit A11 is jammed high on the expansion bus. > > What's puzzling if that's the case is why the ROM BASIC 'function key' strip > appears normally at the bottom of the screen - I'd expect it to be stuck in a > 'non visible' portion of the CGA card's memory. > > > Have you tried the CGA card in different slots? Just in case it's a bad > > contact > > on the edge connector. > > Yes - the same thought had occurred to me. > > I'll take a look at the address lines (albeit just with a DMM, but that will > hopefully be enough if it's a stuck bit) > > cheers > > Jules > > Since it comes up in BASIC, have you tried BASIC's POKE command to stuff some values into the first 1,024 characters (2048 bytes)? I dug up the old IBM PC BASIC manuals and refreshed my memory, and took a few minutes to write a BASIC program that will POKE values into the first 1,024 characters. You can use it to test if the CGA memory is OK when accessed directly. If the memory access is OK it should place 1,024 capital "A" letters that fill in the first 12 lines and 64 characters of the 13th line. 100 ' A test of the first 1,024 characters of CGA character memeory. 110 120 ' Set to 80x25 text mode, with color, page 0 active, page 0 viewed. 130 140 SCREEN 0, 1, 0, 0 150 WIDTH 80 160 170 ' Set segment to CGA memory. 180 190 DEF SEG = &HB800 200 210 ' Poke bright white on black into CGA page 0. 220 230 FOR I = 1 TO 2047 STEP 2 240 POKE I, 15 ' Poke 7 instead of 15 for normal white. 250 NEXT I 260 270 ' Poke capital A into CGA page 0. 280 290 FOR I = 0 TO 2046 STEP 2 300 POKE I, 65 310 NEXT I 320 330 ' Reset segment to BASIC's data segment. 340 350 DEF SEG /s/ Ernest From dave at 661.org Thu Apr 23 21:08:58 2015 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:08:58 -0700 Subject: IMSAI chassis color/texture... In-Reply-To: <09e701d07d6e$a17af990$e470ecb0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <09e701d07d6e$a17af990$e470ecb0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8E6C97BB-044C-4EBE-91DC-3C934422A726@661.org> On April 22, 2015 7:38:43 PM PDT, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I remember a conversation about this subject from many > years ago that never came to any conclusion. Has anyone > discovered any "paint codes" or other definitive descriptions > for the finish on the upper case of an IMSAI? I'm thinking > of having my worst case (multiple scrapes and scratches, > several permanent stains) refinished. > > Bill S. I seem to recall Todd Fisher of imsai.net selling custom-mixed cans of "imsai blue" paint. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 23 21:51:43 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 21:51:43 -0500 Subject: Hi and what are these? In-Reply-To: <20150423225647.481.85752@localhost.localdomain> References: <20150423225647.481.85752@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <5539AFBF.10206@pico-systems.com> On 04/23/2015 05:56 PM, Justin Keogh wrote: > Hey everyone, I am new to the list, have a collection of 60's and 70's hardware I am slowly selling, but these have me stumped (I am not an expert in vintage computing): > > http://imgur.com/0SHTT9A > http://imgur.com/lJXbLjf > http://imgur.com/uPasyFE > http://imgur.com/W3eHes1 > http://imgur.com/A5GuF4Z > http://imgur.com/Wp2jKOb > http://imgur.com/KEiE9It > http://imgur.com/okDQVJQ > > > Anyone know what either of them are called or what system(s) they go to? > Multibus extender boards. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 23 09:31:03 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 07:31:03 -0700 Subject: IMSAI chassis color/texture... In-Reply-To: <09e701d07d6e$a17af990$e470ecb0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <09e701d07d6e$a17af990$e470ecb0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <55390227.3090408@bitsavers.org> On 4/22/15 7:38 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I remember a conversation about this subject from many > years ago that never came to any conclusion. Has anyone > discovered any "paint codes" or other definitive descriptions > for the finish on the upper case of an IMSAI? I'm thinking > of having my worst case (multiple scrapes and scratches, > several permanent stains) refinished. > > Bill S. > > > > If you find an answer, I have one in need of it as well. From scaron at umich.edu Thu Apr 23 10:16:23 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 11:16:23 -0400 Subject: Arlington, TX "vintage computer museum" closing, close-out sale In-Reply-To: References: <20150422170124.2E73E2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> <80BCB4D6-A0CB-409E-8392-F0B24D8E24D9@thecomputervalet.com> <5537FF9F.60305@btinternet.com> <8F1F3A22-DF3C-4D57-AC19-7F566E138B1E@thecomputervalet.com> Message-ID: If I was local I would definitely go over for an afternoon of picking although the most interesting thing I can pick out from the pic on Craigslist is a NeXT grayscale monitor (I suppose the Altos machines are a bit unusual, too) ... I know the sort of place; probably a little storefront computer repair/computer shop with a little "collection" in back ... I've visited a few shops over the years that have had similarly constructed "museum" areas... Always sad to see these little guys go ... I got my own start in the business years ago at a local computer repair shop when I was in high school ... hope they are able to find good placements for their stuff. Best, Sean On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 4:17 PM, devin davison wrote: > I gave them a call, there seems to be quite a bit of interesting stuff > there, but they do not want to ship any of it. > Friendly on the phone, sad to see it's closing up seems like a neat place. > It's a shame it's not anywhere near me or i would have seriously considered > heading over there to see, even if the prices are a little high. Hopefully > it all goes to a good home. > From scaron at umich.edu Thu Apr 23 18:14:54 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:14:54 -0400 Subject: Hi and what are these? In-Reply-To: <20150423225647.481.85752@localhost.localdomain> References: <20150423225647.481.85752@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: They look like diagnostic extender boards to me, for field service... Only one card is marked with the HP logo? These would allow you to run a card outside of the chassis of whatever device they were designed to service s.t. you could probe test points while it ran, or if you wanted to probe at the bus, you could bring the signals out from the chassis, which might have been difficult to fit probes in. These could have gone with practically anything... there's probably as much or better a chance that they are for use servicing a piece of test equipment (i.e. oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, network analyzer, ...) than a computer. Best, Sean On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Justin Keogh wrote: > Hey everyone, I am new to the list, have a collection of 60's and 70's > hardware I am slowly selling, but these have me stumped (I am not an expert > in vintage computing): > > http://imgur.com/0SHTT9A > http://imgur.com/lJXbLjf > http://imgur.com/uPasyFE > http://imgur.com/W3eHes1 > http://imgur.com/A5GuF4Z > http://imgur.com/Wp2jKOb > http://imgur.com/KEiE9It > http://imgur.com/okDQVJQ > > > Anyone know what either of them are called or what system(s) they go to? > > Sometime in the next month or so, I will be auctioning off a complete > (working) Data General Nova 2, along with a few other very rare (from my > searches on this list) big items. > > Thanks! > > > -Justin Keogh > http://www.ebay.com/usr/jkeogh0 > > From evan at snarc.net Thu Apr 23 21:47:37 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 22:47:37 -0400 Subject: VCF East articles + pictures Message-ID: <5539AEC9.6060501@snarc.net> Hackaday sponsored our Friday "VCF East University" classes and they wrote many articles about us before, during, and after the show: hackaday.com/tag/vcf-east/ Ars Technica wrote a great story about "George" and more: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/04/ars-timetravels-through-vintage-computer-festival-east/ MARCH member Garret Nievin took this picture, which is sure to be a hit with DECheads :) http://snarc.net/k_at_pdps_taken_by_garrett_nievin.jpg Tweet-of-the-week: https://twitter.com/MalachyHasRisen/status/589823313037365248 2600's "Off the Hook" radio show interviewed me about VCF two weeks ago. They attended in their famous Bell Telephone van and then discussed the show on last night's OTH episode: http://www.2600.com/offthehook/2015/0415.html Jason Scott's pictures: https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/textfiles/sets/72157652032897002/ Chris L.'s pictures: http://imgur.com/a/XzVsD?gallery Bill D.'s pictures: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/vcf10/ Doug C.'s pictures: http://imgur.com/a/14z4q Many other blog posts, Tweets, etc. are out there in the intertubes. We encouraged people to use #vcfeast where possible. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 03:01:22 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 02:01:22 -0600 Subject: Hi and what are these? In-Reply-To: <5539AFBF.10206@pico-systems.com> References: <20150423225647.481.85752@localhost.localdomain> <5539AFBF.10206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Multibus extender boards. Not Multibus. Multibus P1 is 43x2,at 156 mil pitch, like the larger board shown, but P2 is 30x2 at 100 mil pitch, while the smaller board shown is 24x2 at 156 mil pitch. An extender made for Multibus normally includes both as one board, with two card edges and two receptacles, though it is possible to use two separate extenders, or just the 43x2 if the board doesn't need P2, for instance, if it doesn't have more than 20 address lines. I could really use a Multibus extender card, if anyone happens to have an extra! Otherwise I'll have to make one. From philip at neoncluster.com Fri Apr 24 03:22:44 2015 From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 20:22:44 +1200 Subject: IMSAI chassis color/texture... In-Reply-To: References: <09e701d07d6e$a17af990$e470ecb0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <42B4843C-B2D0-4866-BE81-87F2DA4D84CB@neoncluster.com> PANTONE 7690 https://365pantone.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/pantone-7690/ > On Apr 23, 2015, at 2:44 PM, Philip Lord wrote: > > Once I get home, I could probably cross reference with a pantone color for you. > > >> On Apr 23, 2015, at 2:38 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> >> I remember a conversation about this subject from many >> years ago that never came to any conclusion. Has anyone >> discovered any "paint codes" or other definitive descriptions >> for the finish on the upper case of an IMSAI? I'm thinking >> of having my worst case (multiple scrapes and scratches, >> several permanent stains) refinished. >> >> Bill S. >> >> > From justin.keogh at v6y.net Fri Apr 24 01:12:20 2015 From: justin.keogh at v6y.net (Justin Keogh) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 06:12:20 +0000 Subject: Hi and what are these? In-Reply-To: References: <20150423225647.481.85752@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20150424061220.13263.26542@localhost.localdomain> Yes, only one has the HP logo. Brent Hilpert ID'd it as a HP21xx series extender. The other, idk (yet), but as you said it could be for anything. -J Quoting Sean Caron (2015-04-23 23:14:54) > They look like diagnostic extender boards to me, for field service... Only > one card is marked with the HP logo? > > These would allow you to run a card outside of the chassis of whatever > device they were designed to service s.t. you could probe test points while > it ran, or if you wanted to probe at the bus, you could bring the signals > out from the chassis, which might have been difficult to fit probes in. > > These could have gone with practically anything... there's probably as much > or better a chance that they are for use servicing a piece of test > equipment (i.e. oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, network analyzer, ...) > than a computer. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Justin Keogh wrote: > > > Hey everyone, I am new to the list, have a collection of 60's and 70's > > hardware I am slowly selling, but these have me stumped (I am not an expert > > in vintage computing): > > > > http://imgur.com/0SHTT9A > > http://imgur.com/lJXbLjf > > http://imgur.com/uPasyFE > > http://imgur.com/W3eHes1 > > http://imgur.com/A5GuF4Z > > http://imgur.com/Wp2jKOb > > http://imgur.com/KEiE9It > > http://imgur.com/okDQVJQ > > > > > > Anyone know what either of them are called or what system(s) they go to? > > > > Sometime in the next month or so, I will be auctioning off a complete > > (working) Data General Nova 2, along with a few other very rare (from my > > searches on this list) big items. > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > -Justin Keogh > > http://www.ebay.com/usr/jkeogh0 > > > > From shadoooo at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 05:36:06 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 12:36:06 +0200 Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) Message-ID: <553A1C96.2080807@gmail.com> Hello Al Kossow, I'm scanning a bunch of documents. Many of them aren't not listed on Manx, and shouldn't be already loaded on bitsavers. I'm scanning at 600dpi grayscale, lossless compression. I could upload the documents somewhere in original RAW format, or already deskewed, converted to TIFF BW bitmap. I would contribute to Bitsavers, please contact me offlist for details of upload. Unfortunately I don't have a server, and the raw documents are heavy. Thanks Andrea From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 24 08:48:35 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) Message-ID: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: shadoooo > I'm scanning at 600dpi grayscale, lossless compression. I've been scanning a few things too, and I found that 600dpi grayscale produced absolutely enormous files (many, many MB's per page, for prints), no matter what I tried to do, compression-wise. 600dpi black and white, followed by saving as TIFF's with CCITT Group 4 compression, produced immensely smaller files (small 100's of KB's for the same pages), and they are quite readable (even the fine letter seems to be readable - b/6 is quite distinguishable, etc). Al, I hope that's acceptable for BitSavers - I have a number of things that are missing, and I was planning on scanning them in, and sending them along. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 24 08:51:20 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF East articles + pictures Message-ID: <20150424135120.2CC7A18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Evan Koblentz > Hackaday sponsored our Friday "VCF East University" classes and they > wrote many articles about us before, during, and after the show: Apparently Christopher Parish's RL02<->USB adapter went viral, e.g.: http://www.techspot.com/news/60442-world-largest-usb-thumb-drive-has-10mb-space.html Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 24 09:07:11 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:07:11 -0400 Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Apr 24, 2015, at 9:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: shadoooo > >> I'm scanning at 600dpi grayscale, lossless compression. > > I've been scanning a few things too, and I found that 600dpi grayscale > produced absolutely enormous files (many, many MB's per page, for prints), no > matter what I tried to do, compression-wise. > > 600dpi black and white, followed by saving as TIFF's with CCITT Group 4 > compression, produced immensely smaller files (small 100's of KB's for the > same pages), and they are quite readable (even the fine letter seems to be > readable - b/6 is quite distinguishable, etc). If you?re looking to scan for human consumption, bitmap works ok. But I?ve found that OCR programs seem to want grayscale. Why that is, I don?t know; they do seem to convert it to bitmap at some point. Possibly the threshold logic is more complex. That brings up thresholds. When scanning, or converting to, bitmap, you have to set the gray threshold that is the cutoff between white and black. The default would typically be 128 (50%). Depending on the scanner and the condition of the originals, that threshold may be fine, or it may be far off the optimal. A good approach is to scan a number of representative pages in grayscale, and experiment with different threshold settings to see which one is the best. Basically, you?re looking for the compromise between filled in loops, and broken thin lines. For printed originals, this is probably not all that critical; for typewritten material, it is far more so. paul From js at cimmeri.com Fri Apr 24 09:40:44 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:40:44 -0500 Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <553A55EC.7050409@cimmeri.com> On 4/24/2015 8:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: shadoooo > > > I'm scanning at 600dpi grayscale, lossless compression. > > I've been scanning a few things too, and I found that 600dpi grayscale > produced absolutely enormous files (many, many MB's per page, for prints), no > matter what I tried to do, compression-wise. > > 600dpi black and white, followed by saving as TIFF's with CCITT Group 4 > compression, produced immensely smaller files (small 100's of KB's for the > same pages), and they are quite readable (even the fine letter seems to be > readable - b/6 is quite distinguishable, etc). While smaller, I've always found 1 bit b/w scans to be nightmarish to read (too much font detail is sometimes lost), and forget about grayscale pictures and diagrams coming across intact. Grayscale is best. The problem comes in overdoing the DPI. Even 90 dpi is good enough. 150, more that sufficient. 300 or 600, total waste, but they are (obviously) the most accurate renderings. - J. From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 09:42:29 2015 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 07:42:29 -0700 Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: <553A55EC.7050409@cimmeri.com> References: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <553A55EC.7050409@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: I always scan to optimize OCR, that way the document will be found online via a search engine. Lee C. On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 7:40 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 4/24/2015 8:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> > From: shadoooo >> >> > I'm scanning at 600dpi grayscale, lossless compression. >> >> I've been scanning a few things too, and I found that 600dpi grayscale >> produced absolutely enormous files (many, many MB's per page, for >> prints), no >> matter what I tried to do, compression-wise. >> >> 600dpi black and white, followed by saving as TIFF's with CCITT Group 4 >> compression, produced immensely smaller files (small 100's of KB's for the >> same pages), and they are quite readable (even the fine letter seems to be >> readable - b/6 is quite distinguishable, etc). >> > > While smaller, I've always found 1 bit b/w scans to be nightmarish to read > (too much font detail is sometimes lost), and forget about grayscale > pictures and diagrams coming across intact. Grayscale is best. The > problem comes in overdoing the DPI. Even 90 dpi is good enough. 150, more > that sufficient. 300 or 600, total waste, but they are (obviously) the > most accurate renderings. > > - J. > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 24 09:46:41 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:46:41 -0400 Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: <553A55EC.7050409@cimmeri.com> References: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <553A55EC.7050409@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <9702CCD4-0726-4DB6-BD6F-A5E1159B5E19@comcast.net> > On Apr 24, 2015, at 10:40 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > On 4/24/2015 8:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: shadoooo >> >> > I'm scanning at 600dpi grayscale, lossless compression. >> >> I've been scanning a few things too, and I found that 600dpi grayscale >> produced absolutely enormous files (many, many MB's per page, for prints), no >> matter what I tried to do, compression-wise. >> >> 600dpi black and white, followed by saving as TIFF's with CCITT Group 4 >> compression, produced immensely smaller files (small 100's of KB's for the >> same pages), and they are quite readable (even the fine letter seems to be >> readable - b/6 is quite distinguishable, etc). > > While smaller, I've always found 1 bit b/w scans to be nightmarish to read (too much font detail is sometimes lost), and forget about grayscale pictures and diagrams coming across intact. Grayscale is best. The problem comes in overdoing the DPI. Even 90 dpi is good enough. 150, more that sufficient. 300 or 600, total waste, but they are (obviously) the most accurate renderings. I would not call 90 dpi ?good enough?. The professional printing rule of thumb is that for an n grayscale dots per inch halftone image you need 2n DPI resolution. So 90 dpi is, at best, low grade newspaper resolution. A standard commercial grade scan for good quality printing is 260 dpi or so ? which means 300 is certainly a fine choice. 150 or below may well be acceptable if that?s the best you can get, but you?re definitely compromising image quality if you do that. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Apr 24 09:59:06 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 16:59:06 +0200 Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: References: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <553A5A3A.6030408@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-24 16:07, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 24, 2015, at 9:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> From: shadoooo >> >>> I'm scanning at 600dpi grayscale, lossless compression. >> >> I've been scanning a few things too, and I found that 600dpi grayscale >> produced absolutely enormous files (many, many MB's per page, for prints), no >> matter what I tried to do, compression-wise. >> >> 600dpi black and white, followed by saving as TIFF's with CCITT Group 4 >> compression, produced immensely smaller files (small 100's of KB's for the >> same pages), and they are quite readable (even the fine letter seems to be >> readable - b/6 is quite distinguishable, etc). > > If you?re looking to scan for human consumption, bitmap works ok. But I?ve found that OCR programs seem to want grayscale. Why that is, I don?t know; they do seem to convert it to bitmap at some point. Possibly the threshold logic is more complex. > > That brings up thresholds. When scanning, or converting to, bitmap, you have to set the gray threshold that is the cutoff between white and black. The default would typically be 128 (50%). Depending on the scanner and the condition of the originals, that threshold may be fine, or it may be far off the optimal. A good approach is to scan a number of representative pages in grayscale, and experiment with different threshold settings to see which one is the best. Basically, you?re looking for the compromise between filled in loops, and broken thin lines. For printed originals, this is probably not all that critical; for typewritten material, it is far more so. Speaking of which, anyone have a good suggestion for OCR nowadays? I would really like to throw all the current PDF scans of manuals that sits out there at OCR, to get the documents back to sane sizes, and also make it possible to update the documents over time when needed... Johnny From js at cimmeri.com Fri Apr 24 10:00:31 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:00:31 -0500 Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: <9702CCD4-0726-4DB6-BD6F-A5E1159B5E19@comcast.net> References: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <553A55EC.7050409@cimmeri.com> <9702CCD4-0726-4DB6-BD6F-A5E1159B5E19@comcast.net> Message-ID: <553A5A8F.2040102@cimmeri.com> On 4/24/2015 9:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Apr 24, 2015, at 10:40 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >> >> >> On 4/24/2015 8:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> > From: shadoooo >>> >>> > I'm scanning at 600dpi grayscale, lossless compression. >>> >>> I've been scanning a few things too, and I found that 600dpi grayscale >>> produced absolutely enormous files (many, many MB's per page, for prints), no >>> matter what I tried to do, compression-wise. >>> >>> 600dpi black and white, followed by saving as TIFF's with CCITT Group 4 >>> compression, produced immensely smaller files (small 100's of KB's for the >>> same pages), and they are quite readable (even the fine letter seems to be >>> readable - b/6 is quite distinguishable, etc). >> While smaller, I've always found 1 bit b/w scans to be nightmarish to read (too much font detail is sometimes lost), and forget about grayscale pictures and diagrams coming across intact. Grayscale is best. The problem comes in overdoing the DPI. Even 90 dpi is good enough. 150, more that sufficient. 300 or 600, total waste, but they are (obviously) the most accurate renderings. > I would not call 90 dpi ?good enough?. The professional printing rule of thumb is that for an n grayscale dots per inch halftone image you need 2n DPI resolution. So 90 dpi is, at best, low grade newspaper resolution. A standard commercial grade scan for good quality printing is 260 dpi or so ? which means 300 is certainly a fine choice. 150 or below may well be acceptable if that?s the best you can get, but you?re definitely compromising image quality if you do that. Why don't you actually try it. Also, I'm assuming reading on a screen (where I read most of my vintage manuals) vs. re-printing. My screen resolution is 90dpi. Anything over that is pure waste. Maybe you have better eyes than I do, but I can't discern image quality over 100-200dpi for printing. - J. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Apr 24 10:03:22 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 17:03:22 +0200 Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: <553A5A8F.2040102@cimmeri.com> References: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <553A55EC.7050409@cimmeri.com> <9702CCD4-0726-4DB6-BD6F-A5E1159B5E19@comcast.net> <553A5A8F.2040102@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <553A5B3A.8@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-24 17:00, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 4/24/2015 9:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Apr 24, 2015, at 10:40 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 4/24/2015 8:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>>> > From: shadoooo >>>> >>>> > I'm scanning at 600dpi grayscale, lossless compression. >>>> >>>> I've been scanning a few things too, and I found that 600dpi grayscale >>>> produced absolutely enormous files (many, many MB's per page, for >>>> prints), no >>>> matter what I tried to do, compression-wise. >>>> >>>> 600dpi black and white, followed by saving as TIFF's with CCITT Group 4 >>>> compression, produced immensely smaller files (small 100's of KB's >>>> for the >>>> same pages), and they are quite readable (even the fine letter seems >>>> to be >>>> readable - b/6 is quite distinguishable, etc). >>> While smaller, I've always found 1 bit b/w scans to be nightmarish to >>> read (too much font detail is sometimes lost), and forget about >>> grayscale pictures and diagrams coming across intact. Grayscale is >>> best. The problem comes in overdoing the DPI. Even 90 dpi is good >>> enough. 150, more that sufficient. 300 or 600, total waste, but >>> they are (obviously) the most accurate renderings. >> I would not call 90 dpi ?good enough?. The professional printing rule >> of thumb is that for an n grayscale dots per inch halftone image you >> need 2n DPI resolution. So 90 dpi is, at best, low grade newspaper >> resolution. A standard commercial grade scan for good quality >> printing is 260 dpi or so ? which means 300 is certainly a fine >> choice. 150 or below may well be acceptable if that?s the best you >> can get, but you?re definitely compromising image quality if you do that. > > Why don't you actually try it. Also, I'm assuming reading on a screen > (where I read most of my vintage manuals) vs. re-printing. My screen > resolution is 90dpi. Anything over that is pure waste. Maybe you have > better eyes than I do, but I can't discern image quality over 100-200dpi > for printing. That seems like a weak argument. While looking at documents on a screen, I often magnify them to see details. So a higher resolution of the source material than what the screen offers is very meaningful. Johnny From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 24 10:03:56 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 11:03:56 -0400 Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: <553A5A8F.2040102@cimmeri.com> References: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <553A55EC.7050409@cimmeri.com> <9702CCD4-0726-4DB6-BD6F-A5E1159B5E19@comcast.net> <553A5A8F.2040102@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 24, 2015, at 11:00 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > On 4/24/2015 9:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> ... >> I would not call 90 dpi ?good enough?. The professional printing rule of thumb is that for an n grayscale dots per inch halftone image you need 2n DPI resolution. So 90 dpi is, at best, low grade newspaper resolution. A standard commercial grade scan for good quality printing is 260 dpi or so ? which means 300 is certainly a fine choice. 150 or below may well be acceptable if that?s the best you can get, but you?re definitely compromising image quality if you do that. > > Why don't you actually try it. Also, I'm assuming reading on a screen (where I read most of my vintage manuals) vs. re-printing. My screen resolution is 90dpi. Anything over that is pure waste. Maybe you have better eyes than I do, but I can't discern image quality over 100-200dpi for printing. You?re assuming I haven?t. In fact I have done scans for a long time, with different resolutions; my comment was not based on ignorance. Ditto my statement about professional printing practice. And while a lot of computers have 90 dpi screens, some (like mine) are substantially better. Finally, depending on your eyes you might well be reading at greater than 1:1 scale. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 24 10:09:02 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 11:09:02 -0400 Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: <553A5A3A.6030408@update.uu.se> References: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <553A5A3A.6030408@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > On Apr 24, 2015, at 10:59 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > ... > Speaking of which, anyone have a good suggestion for OCR nowadays? I would really like to throw all the current PDF scans of manuals that sits out there at OCR, to get the documents back to sane sizes, and also make it possible to update the documents over time when needed? Acrobat had (has?) an OCR feature which I?ve used at times. It?s amazingly primitive and works to a ?just barely acceptable? level. I once found an open source OCR program, tried it, concluded it wasn?t worth the trouble of downloading it and forgot the name. At this point, I use Abbyy FineReader, which is a commercial product (not really cheap, but not outrageously expensive either). Windows based, unfortunately. Among other things, it has a ?training? mode where you can teach it what the letters in your source material look like. If you?re dealing with stuff that?s at all marginal ? like line printer listings or typewriter material, never mind dot matrix ? spending an hour or two in training mode makes an incredible difference. I?ve been using this OCR to read CDC 6600 wire lists, which are a challenge (low quality typewriter text). I also tried it the other day on old lineprinter listings of the THE operating system; those were too far gone to be useable, partly because they are upper case only printouts with . overprinting on letters that are upper case in the original mixed case source files. Getting OCR to tell an O from an O with . overprint, reliably, just wasn?t doable. So OCR will work within reason, but there is still material that can only be handled by human eyes. paul From js at cimmeri.com Fri Apr 24 10:13:12 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:13:12 -0500 Subject: DEC scanned documents for Bitsavers (message for Al Kossow) In-Reply-To: <553A5B3A.8@update.uu.se> References: <20150424134835.557B618C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <553A55EC.7050409@cimmeri.com> <9702CCD4-0726-4DB6-BD6F-A5E1159B5E19@comcast.net> <553A5A8F.2040102@cimmeri.com> <553A5B3A.8@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <553A5D88.80104@cimmeri.com> On 4/24/2015 10:03 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-04-24 17:00, js at cimmeri.com > wrote: >> >> >> On 4/24/2015 9:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> On Apr 24, 2015, at 10:40 AM, >>>> js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 4/24/2015 8:48 AM, Noel Chiappa >>>> wrote: >>>>> > From: shadoooo >>>>> >>>>> > I'm scanning at 600dpi >>>>> grayscale, lossless compression. >>>>> >>>>> I've been scanning a few things >>>>> too, and I found that 600dpi >>>>> grayscale >>>>> produced absolutely enormous files >>>>> (many, many MB's per page, for >>>>> prints), no >>>>> matter what I tried to do, >>>>> compression-wise. >>>>> >>>>> 600dpi black and white, followed >>>>> by saving as TIFF's with CCITT >>>>> Group 4 >>>>> compression, produced immensely >>>>> smaller files (small 100's of KB's >>>>> for the >>>>> same pages), and they are quite >>>>> readable (even the fine letter seems >>>>> to be >>>>> readable - b/6 is quite >>>>> distinguishable, etc). >>>> While smaller, I've always found 1 >>>> bit b/w scans to be nightmarish to >>>> read (too much font detail is >>>> sometimes lost), and forget about >>>> grayscale pictures and diagrams >>>> coming across intact. Grayscale is >>>> best. The problem comes in >>>> overdoing the DPI. Even 90 dpi is >>>> good >>>> enough. 150, more that >>>> sufficient. 300 or 600, total >>>> waste, but >>>> they are (obviously) the most >>>> accurate renderings. >>> I would not call 90 dpi ?good >>> enough?. The professional printing >>> rule >>> of thumb is that for an n grayscale >>> dots per inch halftone image you >>> need 2n DPI resolution. So 90 dpi >>> is, at best, low grade newspaper >>> resolution. A standard commercial >>> grade scan for good quality >>> printing is 260 dpi or so ? which >>> means 300 is certainly a fine >>> choice. 150 or below may well be >>> acceptable if that?s the best you >>> can get, but you?re definitely >>> compromising image quality if you do >>> that. >> >> Why don't you actually try it. >> Also, I'm assuming reading on a screen >> (where I read most of my vintage >> manuals) vs. re-printing. My screen >> resolution is 90dpi. Anything over >> that is pure waste. Maybe