From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 1 00:14:09 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 22:14:09 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <51807693.29554.166F97@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <51807693.29554.166F97@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <5180A4A1.5030102@sydex.com> On 04/30/2013 07:57 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Is there a "standard" for setting drive speed? - I don't think I've encountered an actual > dual speed HD drive setup in a PC (except for some of mine which have a manual > "speed switch" on the front panel added by yours truly :-). IMD doesn't know anything > about changing the drive speed as I have not seen documentation on this so if this is > possible on some drives/controllers, then it might explain it - if 22disk had changed the > speed of the drive. A "standard"? Not exactly, but Compaticards can host dual-speed drives, as well as Omnibridges and some DTC SCSI controllers. So it's not as if it's unknown. --Chuck From mike at fenz.net Wed May 1 06:53:55 2013 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 23:53:55 +1200 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> On 1/05/2013 10:40 a.m., Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm not sure why the self-test didn't seem to be doing anything > useful; maybe I should just leave it running for a while and see if it > does anything (unless anyone happens to know what the key sequence is > for invoking the self-test via the keyboard?). Ctrl, both Apple keys, Reset I think. > I'll put it on the to-do list to try and find a monitor for it (it > works great with my big LCD TV, but it'd be nice to have something > vintage to live with it permanently - although I did get an Applecolor > RGB CRT with the IIgs machines, but I have a feeling that doesn't > support composite video input). If it's the one I think it is (12 inch or so GS-specific monitor) then no, it's RGB only. It should be pretty easy to find one of the IIe-era monitors though, especially if you can live without colour. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 1 12:49:24 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 10:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <51808E4C.7020301@jbrain.com> References: <51807568.18537.11DD3E@dave13.dunfield.com> <51808E4C.7020301@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20130501101402.G28387@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 30 Apr 2013, Jim Brain wrote: > When I read my known good DSDD Kaypro boot disk, I set tracks to 80, > stepping to double, and sides to 2. But, IMD tries to read all the way > up to track 80, when I thought it would stop at 40 (80 tracks, double > stepped). WHOA! You asked for 80, and it tried to do 80. You seem to be assuming that it would divide by the double-stepping and do 40. (Actually, it is prob'ly planning to stop at #79, V #39) 1) When IMD asks "tracks", is it asking A. Cylinders of the disk format (AKA "tracks [per side]") B. number of cylinders TIMES number of heads C. cylinders of the DRIVE Kaypro is 40 tracks [per side] You obviously understand that for an 80 track DRIVE, that requires "double stepping" But, are you sure that IMD is counting both sides of a cylinder as separate tracks? When dealing with hardware, it is not uncommon [albeit inaccurate] to treat "track" and "cylinder" identically. "1.2M drives are 80 track" V "360K drives are 80 track (40*2)" "Directory is on track 4" usually does NOT mean cylinder#2, side B > But, when I set retry to 0, and it goes all the way up there, I still > don't have a good copy. If retry is set to 0, then it won't even try again when it hits an error, which is VERY common with floppy drives. NOT GOOD for getting usable disks. A good default is 5 - 10 In SOME programs, NO RETRIES is useful for TESTING, as ANY error, no matter how soft will be reported. In SOME programs, 1 - x are the normal values, and 0 is treated as a special case, either as '0' means "never stop trying until you succeed", which is useful for desperate recovery, or in SOME programs, '0' is a special case, and just means 256, 65536, or 4294967296 (DEC CX JNZ...) NOTE: PLEASE, EVERYBODY, talking about head 0 and head 1 is obvious and correct. So is talking about head 1 and head 2, although 0 and 1 is what the hardware expects. But, that leads to LOTS of confusion. Calling them "head [or side] A" and "B" eliminates that confusion and ambiguity. On MS-DOS DPB on the boot sector of floppy disks, there is a field for number of heads. I have seen values ON FLOPPIES of 0, 1, 2! 0 obviously is intended to mean single sided - "highest head number" 2 obviously is intended to mean count of heads. 1 is EITHER double-sided highest head number, OR singel sided. Likewise, although it's PC-CENTRIC, and thus OFFENSIVE to many, I use "360K" and "1.2M" to refer to the 2 most common groups of 5.25" drives (and "720K, "1.4M" for 3.5"). What is an "80 track drive"? What is a "4 MegaByte drive" (on NeXT) What is "HIGH density"? What is "EXTENDED density"? Kaypro is "360K", with an actual used capacity of 200K or 400K BTW, Kaypro puts an INCORRECT value in the "Head Number" field of the sector headers of all of the sectors on side B. Fortunately, like the extraneous SD track that Dave encountered on the 41st cylinder (#40), it is ignored in use. Both are irrelevant to the current project, but quite important if you want to use INT13h to read, write, or format Kaypro diskettes. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From evan at snarc.net Wed May 1 13:51:42 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 14:51:42 -0400 Subject: Conventions/Shows in the NY/NJ/CT area In-Reply-To: <51802CEB.7020901@atarimuseum.com> References: <51802CEB.7020901@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <5181643E.8050709@snarc.net> > Anyone have a listing of shows coming up in the NY/NJ/CT area... > > Anything for computers and/or videogames... > > I would like to see about getting a vendor table to sell copies of the > Atari Inc. book and to also sell my USB joysticks and my newer versions > that are ready May 1st. > Curt, We in MARCH are having a repair working on May 18-19 (as an alternative to this year's VCF East, which we cancelled because of Sandy.) Next VCF East ("9.1") will be in spring 2014. Meanwhile you are welcome to hawk on the MARCH list. From derschjo at gmail.com Wed May 1 15:25:51 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 13:25:51 -0700 Subject: Imlac PDS-4 information? Message-ID: Long shot, but does anyone have any documentation or software for the Imlac PDS-4? I'm working on an Imlac emulator/simulator (for the -1 and -1D) and I'd like to support the -4 as well, as it appears to add some interesting options; problem is I'm not finding a lot of detailed information about what and how it works :). (Hardware documentation/schematics would also be interesting - I have a set of what appear to be PDS-4 core memory boards and I'd love to be able to debug them since they're in rough shape...) - Josh From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 1 15:42:39 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 13:42:39 -0700 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be Message-ID: <51817E3F.3000907@jwsss.com> Tom Vanvleck posted this question about a terminal. I would have just sent it to Richard, but figured someone else might recognize it also. I got mail from someone asking about a terminal he had salvaged. I added the photo to the "photos" section of the gorup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multicians/photos/album/1199215560/pic/list If you are not a member of that group, I put the photo here: https://www.dropbox.com/lightbox/home/Public/multicians-photo It appears to be a VIP terminal.. he wrote The only thing I've found on Google that remotely resembles it, is in a Multics brochure from 1977, page 4: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Honeywell/Honeywell.Level68.1977.102646161.pdf From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed May 1 16:00:39 2013 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 14:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: <51817E3F.3000907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1367442039.67706.YahooMailClassic@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 5/1/13, Jim Stephens wrote: > From: Jim Stephens > Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013, 4:42 PM > Tom Vanvleck posted this question > about a terminal.? I would have just sent it to > Richard, but figured someone else might recognize it also. Can't view either picture - they both require some kind of login to access. Try uploading it using imgur or similar. -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 1 15:17:22 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 21:17:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: <201304302250.r3UMocBC019219@rickmurphy.net> from "Rick Murphy" at Apr 30, 13 06:50:35 pm Message-ID: > I've opened up the drive. The external interface is to a "Data Path" > module that has a bunch of TTL and one large chip (40 -pin, probably an > 8031) with a Phillips logo. I think this is confirmed to be an LMSI > rebrand. I would not bet on it being an 8031, for several reasons. The trivial one is that if it was from taht series, it would be more likely to be an 8051 with an internal ROM. But amazingly, Philips used 6805-series micrcontrollers in some CD-ROM drives (and CD players). I have no idea why, but they did. And the CD-ROM drive I mentioned has a 40 pin IC numbered PCF1801BP in the data circuit. This is not a microcontroller, it's a mask-programmed ULA which extracts the wanted data from the stram at the output of the SAA7310 I suspect the chip in your drive is soemthing similar. For the record, 3 of the RS422 drivers are drive by that IC. Pin 32 is the clock output, it's inverted 3 times byy 4001 NOR gates (probably also to delay it a bit). Pin 27 is the data output. nd pin 33 is Attention. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 1 16:19:22 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 22:19:22 +0100 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: <51817E3F.3000907@jwsss.com> References: <51817E3F.3000907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <518186DA.3030901@gmail.com> On 01/05/2013 21:42, Jim Stephens wrote: > Tom Vanvleck posted this question about a terminal. I would have just > sent it to Richard, but figured someone else might recognize it also. > > I got mail from someone asking about a terminal he had salvaged. > I added the photo to the "photos" section of the gorup: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multicians/photos/album/1199215560/pic/list > > If you are not a member of that group, I put the photo here: > > https://www.dropbox.com/lightbox/home/Public/multicians-photo > > > It appears to be a VIP terminal.. he wrote > > The only thing I've found on Google that remotely resembles it, is in > a Multics brochure from 1977, page 4: > > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Honeywell/Honeywell.Level68.1977.102646161.pdf > > > > The VIP Terminals I used on an L66 were like those on Page 6. I think the one on Page 4 was an earlier or special model that was used as a console... Dave From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed May 1 16:25:59 2013 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 21:25:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: <51817E3F.3000907@jwsss.com> References: <51817E3F.3000907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 May 2013, Jim Stephens wrote: > Tom Vanvleck posted this question about a terminal. I would have just sent > it to Richard, but figured someone else might recognize it also. > > I got mail from someone asking about a terminal he had salvaged. > I added the photo to the "photos" section of the gorup: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multicians/photos/album/1199215560/pic/list > > If you are not a member of that group, I put the photo here: > > https://www.dropbox.com/lightbox/home/Public/multicians-photo FYI, both of those links ask me to log in. Alexey From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 1 16:37:35 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 14:37:35 -0700 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: <1367442039.67706.YahooMailClassic@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1367442039.67706.YahooMailClassic@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51818B1F.4030405@jwsss.com> On 5/1/2013 2:00 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Wed, 5/1/13, Jim Stephens wrote: > >> From: Jim Stephens >> Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be >> To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013, 4:42 PM >> Tom Vanvleck posted this question >> about a terminal. I would have just sent it to >> Richard, but figured someone else might recognize it also. imgur is a bit confusing. try this. http://imgur.com/a/6FnnP > Can't view either picture - they both require some kind of login to access. > > Try uploading it using imgur or similar. > > -Ian > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 1 16:48:41 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 14:48:41 -0700 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: <51818B1F.4030405@jwsss.com> References: <1367442039.67706.YahooMailClassic@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51818B1F.4030405@jwsss.com> Message-ID: At 2:37 PM -0700 5/1/13, Jim Stephens wrote: >imgur is a bit confusing. try this. > >http://imgur.com/a/6FnnP Is it sitting on something, or is the base part of it? If the base isn't part of it, it reminds me of the TEMPEST terminals from Honeywell that I used on a DPS-8. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed May 1 17:03:13 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 23:03:13 +0100 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: References: <1367442039.67706.YahooMailClassic@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51818B1F.4030405@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51819121.9010502@gmail.com> On 01/05/2013 22:48, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 2:37 PM -0700 5/1/13, Jim Stephens wrote: >> imgur is a bit confusing. try this. >> >> http://imgur.com/a/6FnnP > > Is it sitting on something, or is the base part of it? > > If the base isn't part of it, it reminds me of the TEMPEST terminals > from Honeywell that I used on a DPS-8. > > Zane > > > Does the keyboard fold up? Is it some kind of early portable? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 1 17:38:13 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 18:38:13 -0400 Subject: intel mds225 for sale Message-ID: one of the guys at my hackerspace has a intel mds 225 its power up to diag mode when the board is pulled from the back plane but when inserted the screen goes all fuzzed and crazy never been able to trouble shoot it gone over it with a meter pulled all cables boards out put them back in has pile of software and manuals and drawings to go with it and a prom rom programer reader and a another device of some sort http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6171038488/lightbox/ funds going to supporting a community hackerspace. if i was not broke i would just buy it myself to add to pegcity bits i can get a video of it powering up if anyone wants to see make offers o its located in winnipeg canada From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed May 1 17:48:04 2013 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (Bill Layer) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 17:48:04 -0500 Subject: intel mds225 for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not to hijack, but I happen to have one of these - but it's white in color. Anyone know the difference? On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > one of the guys at my hackerspace has a intel mds 225 its power up to diag > mode when the board is pulled from the back plane but when inserted the > screen goes all fuzzed and crazy never been able to trouble shoot it gone > over it with a meter pulled all cables boards out put them back in > > has pile of software and manuals and drawings to go with it > and a prom rom programer reader and a another device of some sort > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6171038488/lightbox/ > > funds going to supporting a community hackerspace. > if i was not broke i would just buy it myself to add to pegcity bits > > i can get a video of it powering up if anyone wants to see > > make offers > o its located in winnipeg canada > From dmabry at mich.com Wed May 1 18:07:44 2013 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 19:07:44 -0400 Subject: intel mds225 for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5181A040.4050402@mich.com> What the Intel representative told me at the time they switched from blue to white was...since IBM PC's were white Intel decided to make the MDS white. No difference otherwise. Bill Layer said the following on 5/1/2013 6:48 PM: > Not to hijack, but I happen to have one of these - but it's white in color. > Anyone know the difference? > > > On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> one of the guys at my hackerspace has a intel mds 225 its power up to diag >> mode when the board is pulled from the back plane but when inserted the >> screen goes all fuzzed and crazy never been able to trouble shoot it gone >> over it with a meter pulled all cables boards out put them back in >> >> has pile of software and manuals and drawings to go with it >> and a prom rom programer reader and a another device of some sort >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6171038488/lightbox/ >> >> funds going to supporting a community hackerspace. >> if i was not broke i would just buy it myself to add to pegcity bits >> >> i can get a video of it powering up if anyone wants to see >> >> make offers >> o its located in winnipeg canada >> > From trasz at FreeBSD.org Wed May 1 11:28:41 2013 From: trasz at FreeBSD.org (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Edward_Tomasz_Napiera=B3a?=) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 18:28:41 +0200 Subject: R4400 SGI Indigo - wild roar shortly after power on. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BAA1350-C7E3-4121-B4F3-B2618A012073@FreeBSD.org> Wiadomo?? napisana przez Richard w dniu 30 kwi 2013, o godz. 18:44: > In article , > =?iso-8859-2?Q?Edward_Tomasz_Napiera=B3a?= writes: > >> Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks :-) > > Have you asked on nekochan.net? Yes. No solution, unfortunately. One more data point: when I first got the machine, it worked ok for a few hours. Then, at some point, it started to emit this awful noise. -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed May 1 15:53:29 2013 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 20:53:29 +0000 Subject: First web site restoration Message-ID: Saw this in a newspaper article: CERN has brought back to life the first website -- of 20 years ago. http://info.cern.ch/ paul From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed May 1 18:15:31 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 19:15:31 -0400 Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: References: <201304302250.r3UMocBC019219@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <201305012315.r41NFXAh005558@rickmurphy.net> At 04:17 PM 5/1/2013, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've opened up the drive. The external interface is to a "Data Path" > > module that has a bunch of TTL and one large chip (40 -pin, > probably an > > 8031) with a Phillips logo. I think this is confirmed to be an LMSI > > rebrand. > >I would not bet on it being an 8031, for several reasons. > >The trivial one is that if it was from taht series, it would be more >likely to be an 8051 with an internal ROM. There's two ROMs on the board, and the only recognizable number on that 40-pin chip is that "8031". However, you may be right - week 31 of 1980 isn't unreasonable. And this is just the external interface card. >But amazingly, Philips used 6805-series micrcontrollers in some CD-ROM >drives (and CD players). I have no idea why, but they did. > >And the CD-ROM drive I mentioned has a 40 pin IC numbered PCF1801BP in >the data circuit. This is not a microcontroller, it's a mask-programmed >ULA which extracts the wanted data from the stram at the output of the >SAA7310 I suspect the chip in your drive is soemthing similar. > >For the record, 3 of the RS422 drivers are drive by that IC. Pin 32 is >the clock output, it's inverted 3 times byy 4001 NOR gates (probably also >to delay it a bit). Pin 27 is the data output. nd pin 33 is Attention. I've reassembled the drive as I'm about to build a cable. It's clear that it's a simple pin-for-pin twisted pair for the first five pairs on the DA15. Tracing the connector on the drive shows me drivers on pins 1/9, 3/11, 4/12, 5/13 and receiver on pins 2/10. Tracing the controller shows a receiver on 1/9, 3/11, 4/12, 5/13 and a driver on 2/10. It would take a rather evil engineer to mix those pairs up. -Rick From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 1 18:40:41 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 16:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: First web site restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130501163737.X30773@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 1 May 2013 Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: > Saw this in a newspaper article: CERN has brought back to life the first website -- of 20 years ago. > http://info.cern.ch/ And, unlike "the computer that email was invented on", and "first computer on the internet", this one is for real. There has already been some minimal mention of it under Subject: Re: CERN/NeXT/recreating the first web server -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 1 18:51:13 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 16:51:13 -0700 Subject: First web site restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5181AA71.6010307@jwsss.com> On 5/1/2013 1:53 PM, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: > Saw this in a newspaper article: CERN has brought back to life the first website -- of 20 years ago. > > http://info.cern.ch/ > > paul It was entertaining to see it slashdotted 20 years data and nearly out of commission. Only took a few 56k modems back then to do that. Jim From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed May 1 18:54:44 2013 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 18:54:44 -0500 Subject: Imlac PDS-4 information? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5181AB44.4020106@ubanproductions.com> I wish you luck. I scanned all of the documentation I have and as far as I know, I'm the only one who seems to have saved any. They did have a PDS-4 at Purdue while I was there, which is where I got the information which I do have, but I never ran it or saw it run at that time. If you find additional information, I would be interested in adding it to my collection of Imlac docs. Best, --tom On 5/1/13 3:25 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Long shot, but does anyone have any documentation or software for the Imlac > PDS-4? I'm working on an Imlac emulator/simulator (for the -1 and -1D) and > I'd like to support the -4 as well, as it appears to add some interesting > options; problem is I'm not finding a lot of detailed information about > what and how it works :). > > (Hardware documentation/schematics would also be interesting - I have a set > of what appear to be PDS-4 core memory boards and I'd love to be able to > debug them since they're in rough shape...) > > - Josh > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 1 18:56:45 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 19:56:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: R4400 SGI Indigo - wild roar shortly after power on. In-Reply-To: <4BAA1350-C7E3-4121-B4F3-B2618A012073@FreeBSD.org> References: <4BAA1350-C7E3-4121-B4F3-B2618A012073@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <201305012356.TAA21394@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? I call trick question. You wouldn't say either one, because you'd be too dead to talk. The question lurking underneath is interesting, though, I agree. I'm not sure which I would think more appropriate in general; personally, I tend to locate my self a few inches behind midway between my eyes, so I'd probably go with "me and my body". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave13 at dunfield.com Wed May 1 20:16:02 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 20:16:02 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <5181B042.31358.1CBDE9@dave13.dunfield.com> >>> When you create 360/1.2M disks by formatting on the PC - can you then >>> read and recreate those disks with IMD? >> I tried reading and then recreating a DOS 360K disk. Worked fine. >> >> It even seemed to read a known good Kaypro disk. But, I tried writing >> it out with no luck. It did, though, write it out with no errors, so >> I think I have two issues. One is that the K10FLOAD.TD0 file that I >> converted to an IMD did not convert correctly, and the other is a lack >> of correct settings on IMD. >> >> When I read my known good DSDD Kaypro boot disk, I set tracks to 80, >> stepping to double, and sides to 2. But, IMD tries to read all the >> way up to track 80, when I thought it would stop at 40 (80 tracks, >> double stepped). >Update: I was able to copy a known good Universal ROM boot disk and >boot it on the K1. So, at least I know my setup works. I still don't >understand why the read of the disk tries and fails to read tracks 41-80 >with doublestepping on. I also don't understand why running td02imd on >k10fload.td0 didn't create a good imd file I can use with the utility. If you take the time to read/understand the IMD docs and/or help screens, you will note that I explicitly state that IMD does not make ANY assumptions about your drive. It simply uses the capabilities of the controller to see what it can find "out there". The point of note here is that it supports up to the theoretical maximum of 255 cylinders that the 765 controller architecturally supports. So why would it assume that your drive cannot have more than 80 physical cylinders. It has no idea what type of drive you have. Sure, drives with more than 80 cylinders aren't common, but sometimes extra data is hidden in an extra track beyond the end... Some times two tracks ... why may any such assumptions - At one time 8" drives with 77 cylinders were "as big as it gets" - so NEC designed a 77 step limit into the original 765 ... which means they fail on long seeks on more modern 80 cylinder drives - requiring software workarounds ... IMD makes no assumptions about the drive - it simply does what you ask it to do. When you set double-stepping, you are simply telling IMD to send two step pulses for each cylinder it wants to move the head. It will try to read the number of cylinders that you specify. It does not "guess" that your drive may not be big enough to contain those cylinders because of other settings that you have made. IMD is about doing what you ask it to do, not trying to "fix it up for you". If you want to read a 40-cylinder disk --- set it to read 40 cylinders. It defaults to 80 cylinders because that will read most comon disk types without the user having to actually know what he is doing. Most drives will allow seek a couple of tracks past the certified number of tracks. In *MOST* disks, these "extra" tracks will not contain any data. At it's default settings, IMD will stop when it encounters a track with no discernable data - in *most* cases, this signifies the end of data tracks on the disk. So if you read a 40 cylinder disk while set to read 80, it will read 0-39 and stop on track 40. But this is because it "ran out of tracks" when it hit the extra track (40 = track# 41). But... if the disk contains data in this area, IMD will happy continue reading up until it either runs out of data, or hits the specified cylinder limit. This is why some of my Kay disks have the extra SD track 40 -- the original disks actually have this track one step beyond the certified limit of the drive. It also means that if your drive does not step past the certified limit, or you have data in all of the "extra" tracks before it hits the stop, then it will continue to step, banging the head against the stop until it gets to the number of cylinders you specified (because it never runs out of tracks with data). I designed IMD to be a fairly powerful tool, and not to limit you by making assumptions about what you are doing - as a result, you have to know more details about what you are doing than "other" disk archival utilities ... I do provide a lot of useful information in my docs and help files to help you get it sorted out, but it does require an inventment in time/effort to get there. Which leads to the question ... if you have TeleDisk images for the disks you want to create, and are finding IMD unsuitable - why not use Teledisk to recreate the disks. TeleDisk is designed to "make it easy" - it looks at the BIOS settings to see what kind of drive it is, and makes decisions based on that - for basic operations, it will be simpler than IMD to use. Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 1 19:39:14 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 00:39:14 +0000 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: <51817E3F.3000907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998DA1999@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 5/1/13 1:42 PM, "Jim Stephens" wrote: >Tom Vanvleck posted this question about a terminal. I would have just >sent it to Richard, but figured someone else might recognize it also. > >I got mail from someone asking about a terminal he had salvaged. >I added the photo to the "photos" section of the gorup: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multicians/photos/album/1199215560/pic/list > >If you are not a member of that group, I put the photo here: > >https://www.dropbox.com/lightbox/home/Public/multicians-photo > > >It appears to be a VIP terminal.. he wrote > >The only thing I've found on Google that remotely resembles it, is in a >Multics brochure from 1977, page 4: > >http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Honeywell/Honeywell.Leve >l68.1977.102646161.pdf > > > > > I've had a problem like this before: I think because I have Dropbox installed on this computer, it asks me for a username/password for just about any Dropbox link. At least that's my current theory - bottom line is, I can't see this through either link. FYI -- Ian From dave13 at dunfield.com Wed May 1 20:40:56 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 20:40:56 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <5181B618.11159.338758@dave13.dunfield.com> >> When I read my known good DSDD Kaypro boot disk, I set tracks to 80, >> stepping to double, and sides to 2. But, IMD tries to read all the way >> up to track 80, when I thought it would stop at 40 (80 tracks, double >> stepped). > >WHOA! >You asked for 80, and it tried to do 80. You seem to be assuming that it >would divide by the double-stepping and do 40. (Actually, it is prob'ly >planning to stop at #79, V #39) > >1) When IMD asks "tracks", is it asking >A. Cylinders of the disk format (AKA "tracks [per side]") >B. number of cylinders TIMES number of heads >C. cylinders of the DRIVE The setting is "Cylinders" in the main settings menu, and it indicates the maximum number of cylinders that IMD will attempt to read from the disk (when writing IMD uses the cylinders occuring in the image - unless you use the track exclusion feature to avoid writing certain ones). >But, are you sure that IMD is counting both sides of a cylinder as >separate tracks? >When dealing with hardware, it is not uncommon [albeit inaccurate] to >treat "track" and "cylinder" identically. >"1.2M drives are 80 track" V "360K drives are 80 track (40*2)" >"Directory is on track 4" usually does NOT mean cylinder#2, side B IMD uses "Cylinder" to refer to the actual cylinders - ie: actual steps of the head(s) - it uses the "Singe/Double sided" setting to determine how many tracks occur in each cylinder ("as read" means it will try to read both sides for the first few tracks to determine. >> But, when I set retry to 0, and it goes all the way up there, I still >> don't have a good copy. > >If retry is set to 0, then it won't even try again when it hits an error, >which is VERY common with floppy drives. >NOT GOOD for getting usable disks. A good default is 5 - 10 >In SOME programs, NO RETRIES is useful for TESTING, as ANY error, no >matter how soft will be reported. >In SOME programs, 1 - x are the normal values, and 0 is treated as a >special case, either as '0' means "never stop trying until you succeed", >which is useful for desperate recovery, or >in SOME programs, '0' is a special case, and just means 256, 65536, or >4294967296 (DEC CX JNZ...) In IMD 0 is a special case, but it means to quickly scan the disk getting what it can on one read and NOT to re-analyze the disk if it cannot read data from a track - in doing so it also prevents the automatic stop when data runs out ... it's just a quick way to scan the whole disk to check a particular format. Agreed is it not recommended as a way to get reliable disks. >BTW, Kaypro puts an INCORRECT value in the "Head Number" field of the >sector headers of all of the sectors on side B. Fortunately, like the >extraneous SD track that Dave encountered on the 41st cylinder (#40), it >is ignored in use. Both are irrelevant to the current project, but quite >important if you want to use INT13h to read, write, or format Kaypro >diskettes. They also use different sector numbers on side 1 - in fact, they logically number both sides as if it were a single side (head 0) with ascending sector numbers through the sectors on both sides. IMD simply records the cylinder, head and sector numbers found in the sector headers of any given physical track and recreates them as it writes the disk - it does not expect them to contain any particular value, so it reads/writes kaypro disks with no problems. Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From classiccmp at crash.com Wed May 1 19:55:31 2013 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 17:55:31 -0700 Subject: Two Maxell CS-600XD data cassettes for cost of shipping Message-ID: <5181B983.5030604@crash.com> Anybody need actual official data cassettes? I've got two (2) free to anybody who wants to pay the cost of shipping - I'll use bubblewrap and toss them in the smallest USPS flat rate box, that's $5.80 last I checked. "Maxell High Density Data Cassette - 183 m / 600 ft. - 16,000 ftpi. - D/CAS-86 COMPATIBLE CS-600XD Made in Japan" Labels are blank, write-protect switch is in the protected position. Excellent condition, clean, not sure where I found them. PayPal preferred. --S. From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 1 20:02:55 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 19:02:55 -0600 Subject: R4400 SGI Indigo - wild roar shortly after power on. In-Reply-To: <4BAA1350-C7E3-4121-B4F3-B2618A012073@FreeBSD.org> References: <4BAA1350-C7E3-4121-B4F3-B2618A012073@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: In article <4BAA1350-C7E3-4121-B4F3-B2618A012073 at FreeBSD.org>, Edward Tomasz Napiera?a writes: > One more data point: when I first got the machine, it worked ok for a few > hours. Then, at some point, it started to emit this awful noise. Sounds like a marginal component fails once it warms up and now it's failing sooner. In a computer system, it seems the most commonly failing part is a capacitor. Since there is noise coming from the speaker, I'd put an oscilloscope on the speaker terminals and see if you can spot an increasing noise level on the terminals. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 1 20:19:06 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 19:19:06 -0600 Subject: Imlac PDS-4 information? In-Reply-To: <5181AB44.4020106@ubanproductions.com> References: <5181AB44.4020106@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: In article <5181AB44.4020106 at ubanproductions.com>, Tom Uban writes: > I wish you luck. I scanned all of the documentation I have [...] Where are those docs located? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed May 1 20:26:34 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 21:26:34 -0400 Subject: Slashdot my VAX - Re: First web site restoration In-Reply-To: <5181AA71.6010307@jwsss.com> References: <5181AA71.6010307@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5181C0CA.2050301@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/05/13 7:51 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > On 5/1/2013 1:53 PM, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: >> Saw this in a newspaper article: CERN has brought back to life the >> first website -- of 20 years ago. >> >> http://info.cern.ch/ >> >> paul > It was entertaining to see it slashdotted 20 years data and nearly out > of commission. Only took a few 56k modems back then to do that. It would take rather a lot of 56k modems to "slashdot" my MicroVAX II vintage 1985, eight years older than the site in question. (It runs NetBSD 1.4.1 and Apache 1.3.x at the moment.) How many modems were you thinking of? --Toby > > Jim > From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 1 20:51:06 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 18:51:06 -0700 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998DA1999@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998DA1999@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5181C68A.4090907@jwsss.com> On 5/1/2013 5:39 PM, Ian King wrote: Did anyone try this link? http://imgur.com/a/6FnnP Thanks Jim > On 5/1/13 1:42 PM, "Jim Stephens" wrote: > >> Tom Vanvleck posted this question about a terminal. I would have just >> sent it to Richard, but figured someone else might recognize it also. >> >> I got mail from someone asking about a terminal he had salvaged. >> I added the photo to the "photos" section of the gorup: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multicians/photos/album/1199215560/pic/list >> >> If you are not a member of that group, I put the photo here: >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/lightbox/home/Public/multicians-photo >> >> >> It appears to be a VIP terminal.. he wrote >> >> The only thing I've found on Google that remotely resembles it, is in a >> Multics brochure from 1977, page 4: >> >> http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Honeywell/Honeywell.Leve >> l68.1977.102646161.pdf >> >> >> >> >> > I've had a problem like this before: I think because I have Dropbox > installed on this computer, it asks me for a username/password for just > about any Dropbox link. At least that's my current theory - bottom line > is, I can't see this through either link. > > FYI -- Ian > > > From brain at jbrain.com Wed May 1 22:58:23 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 22:58:23 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <5181B042.31358.1CBDE9@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <5181B042.31358.1CBDE9@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <5181E45F.9090705@jbrain.com> On 5/1/2013 8:16 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > If you take the time to read/understand the IMD docs and/or help screens, > you will note that I explicitly state that IMD does not make ANY assumptions > about your drive. It simply uses the capabilities of the controller to see what it > can find "out there". The point of note here is that it supports up to the theoretical > maximum of 255 cylinders that the 765 controller architecturally supports. So > why would it assume that your drive cannot have more than 80 physical cylinders. > It has no idea what type of drive you have. I read the instructions and I felt I understood them, and I understand that IMD does not make any assumptions about the drive. From my vantage point, I saw the first few items in the settings screen as "tell me about your disk drive". So, I set it to 'B', 80 tracks, because that's what I felt it was. I figured the SW would do the math and say "Hmm, he's wants to do double stepping on a 80 track drive, I need to pull in 40 tracks of data" It's OK, but I'd appreciate it if you could see it from my vantage point. I'm not ignoring your instructions, And, I agree the setting being what it is saves a setting (my approach would require a setting to describe the physical drive parms and another setting to describe how many tracks I want to read/write, if less than the maximum). > > Which leads to the question ... if you have TeleDisk images for the disks > you want to create, and are finding IMD unsuitable - why not use Teledisk > to recreate the disks. TeleDisk is designed to "make it easy" - it looks at > the BIOS settings to see what kind of drive it is, and makes decisions > based on that - for basic operations, it will be simpler than IMD to use. I was told by folks on the list to grab IMD and make the disks. I was simply taking the advice. Jim From derschjo at gmail.com Thu May 2 13:09:16 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 11:09:16 -0700 Subject: Imlac PDS-4 information? In-Reply-To: References: <5181AB44.4020106@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Tom has the software & docs at: http://ubanproductions.com/imlac_sw.html (And I thank him heartily for preserving this stuff!) - Josh On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <5181AB44.4020106 at ubanproductions.com>, > Tom Uban writes: > > > I wish you luck. I scanned all of the documentation I have [...] > > Where are those docs located? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From classiccmp at crash.com Thu May 2 13:22:52 2013 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 11:22:52 -0700 Subject: GONE, Re: Two Maxell CS-600XD data cassettes for cost of shipping In-Reply-To: <5181B983.5030604@crash.com> References: <5181B983.5030604@crash.com> Message-ID: <5182AEFC.2060401@crash.com> On 05/01/2013 05:55 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > Anybody need actual official data cassettes? I've got two (2) free to > anybody who wants to pay the cost of shipping... I've got two takers, that should do it. Thanks for the bandwidth. --S. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 2 13:40:51 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 12:40:51 -0600 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: <5181C68A.4090907@jwsss.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998DA1999@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5181C68A.4090907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Honeywell made (or OEM'ed) a bunch of terminals with the "VIP" designation. A photo of the model plate would be more useful. Cindy Croxton took these photos of some Honeywell terminals I bought: So far none of the photos I've been able to find of known Honeywell terminals match the one Jim has shown us. I get the impression that Honeywell had a range of offerings over time and that some were made directly by Honeywell and some were OEMed from other suppliers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 2 13:00:58 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 19:00:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: <201305012315.r41NFXAh005558@rickmurphy.net> from "Rick Murphy" at May 1, 13 07:15:31 pm Message-ID: > > At 04:17 PM 5/1/2013, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've opened up the drive. The external interface is to a "Data Path" > > > module that has a bunch of TTL and one large chip (40 -pin, > > probably an > > > 8031) with a Phillips logo. I think this is confirmed to be an LMSI > > > rebrand. > > > >I would not bet on it being an 8031, for several reasons. > > > >The trivial one is that if it was from taht series, it would be more > >likely to be an 8051 with an internal ROM. > > There's two ROMs on the board, and the only recognizable number on that Ah, that you didn't mention... > 40-pin chip is that "8031". However, you may be right - week 31 of 1980 > isn't unreasonable. And this is just the external interface card. Actually, 1980 would be far too early for a CD-ROM drive, surely? > I've reassembled the drive as I'm about to build a cable. It's clear > that it's a simple pin-for-pin twisted pair for the first five pairs on > the DA15. Tracing the connector on the drive shows me drivers on pins > 1/9, 3/11, 4/12, 5/13 and receiver on pins 2/10. Tracing the > controller shows a receiver on 1/9, 3/11, 4/12, 5/13 and a driver on > 2/10. It would take a rather evil engineer to mix those pairs up. Certainly the exernal PC Philips/LMSI drive uses a straight-wired cable. As well as the signal pairs, there may be a signal ground pin. I think Philips used pin 8 for this. IF so, that should be linked as well. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 2 14:13:19 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 15:13:19 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5182BACF.4020301@neurotica.com> On 05/02/2013 02:00 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> 40-pin chip is that "8031". However, you may be right - week 31 of 1980 >> isn't unreasonable. And this is just the external interface card. > > Actually, 1980 would be far too early for a CD-ROM drive, surely? The 8031 has no internal program ROM, so the copyright date will be for the processor, not the ROM contents, and 1980 is exactly the right year for an 8031. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Thu May 2 14:45:55 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 12:45:55 -0700 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998DA1999@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5181C68A.4090907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5182C273.904@jwsss.com> On 5/2/2013 11:40 AM, Richard wrote: > Honeywell made (or OEM'ed) a bunch of terminals with the "VIP" > designation. > > I'll pass that link along to whoever sent in the query > A photo of the model plate would be more useful. > > Cindy Croxton took these photos of some Honeywell terminals I bought: > I think the one you have that is "squarish" on the right of the photos on that page is the style that Honeywell used for airline uses, and is hard to tell at a glance from one made by Univac. I had a Univac which looked almost identical to that one with an 8080. I think the one they have a photo of might be somewhat older, but as you say a photo of the name plate would be nice. I don't know if the question came from someone with the hardware, or someone with the photo though. thanks for the looks, I appreciate you have seen far more terminals than most and took a look. Jim > So far none of the photos I've been able to find of known Honeywell > terminals match the one Jim has shown us. > > I get the impression that Honeywell had a range of offerings over time > and that some were made directly by Honeywell and some were OEMed from > other suppliers. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 2 14:45:47 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 14:45:47 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> Message-ID: <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> On 05/01/2013 06:53 AM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > On 1/05/2013 10:40 a.m., Jules Richardson wrote: >> I'm not sure why the self-test didn't seem to be doing anything useful; >> maybe I should just leave it running for a while and see if it does >> anything (unless anyone happens to know what the key sequence is for >> invoking the self-test via the keyboard?). > > Ctrl, both Apple keys, Reset I think. Thanks - that worked! It dropped right into a sensible (and monochrome) test, not the screen full of colored squares that I get with no keyboard at all plugged in - which makes me think that the latter is something else (possibly just outright confusion / incomplete power-on sequence) >> I'll put it on the to-do list to try and find a monitor for it (it works >> great with my big LCD TV, but it'd be nice to have something vintage to >> live with it permanently - although I did get an Applecolor RGB CRT with >> the IIgs machines, but I have a feeling that doesn't support composite >> video input). > > If it's the one I think it is (12 inch or so GS-specific monitor) Yes, that seems like the one. > it's RGB only. Rats. I saw several IIe-era monitors (and IIe systems, Disk II drives etc.) in a dumpster less than an hour ago, but wasn't allowed to take anything - I expect they're off to the crusher. :-( cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 2 14:52:29 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 14:52:29 -0500 Subject: Apple IIgs - IIe keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <51804EBB.9020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5182C3FD.1010208@gmail.com> On 04/30/2013 07:52 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 30 Apr 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Anyway, the machine with the SCSI card looks to be an earlier board, and >> has a keyboard socket soldered to the PCB. Wikipedia seems to suggest >> that this should accept the keyboard from my IIe, albeit with reduced >> functionality over a genuine ADB keyboard - however, is it as simple as >> plugging it in, or are there other tweaks that are necessary for it to >> work? (e.g. perhaps worst-case a ROM change for a ROM that I don't have!). >> >> Although I'd like to get an ADB keyboard and rodent, I'm curious to see >> if the IIe keyboard will work in the meantime... > > If it has the IIe style connector, then it's one of the earlier ROM 1 > boards. They were sold with a replacement bottom pan as a retrofit for 2e > machines. The board probably also has a conventional, square 6-pin power > connector in addition to the single-inline 2gs power header. > > Go ahead and connect the 2e keyboard. Yes, that worked nicely :) Using the self-test key sequence that Mike mentioned (in my IIe thread) does its thing for a while and then comes back with a "system good" message, so that was good to see! > I would love to get my hands on one of those bottom pans for my Apple 2 > collection. I'm not sure what I'm doing with mine yet - it probably depends on whether the SCSI card works in both machines (and I *think* the later ROM is more useful, allowing the system to run some stuff that the v1 ROM won't). cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 2 14:59:01 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 14:59:01 -0500 Subject: Well, that was depressing. Message-ID: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> They just had an e-waste recycling event in town; different company to the one that did such an event once before. Last time I was allowed to check for vintage systems, but there wasn't anything useful there - just few-years-old PCs. This time around there was an entire dumpster full of vintage Apple hardware, but I wasn't allowed anywhere near it - it all goes back to Wisconsin for "processing". Apparently they do occasionally ebay some vintage items, but the way this lot had just been tossed into the dumpster makes me think that it's all off to the crusher. (and of course there was the Disk II drive that I need, sitting right on the top of the pile!) Of course it's their right to do what they want with it - it's just frustrating not being able to save any of it. Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu May 2 15:39:22 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 16:39:22 -0400 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> Message-ID: On May 2, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> it's RGB only. > > Rats. I saw several IIe-era monitors (and IIe systems, Disk II drives etc.) in a dumpster less than an hour ago, but wasn't allowed to take anything - I expect they're off to the crusher. :-( Any old CRT TV is generally a decent monitor for the IIe and similar. The cheaper, the better; you want good, fuzzy pixels. :-) Modern LCD TVs, when they'll sync at all (mine has trouble) look like garbage, partly because they're much sharper. If you know a good dump, chances are you can find cheap-ass CRT TVs from the mid-'90s that will do a fine job for your purposes. Same goes if you try to run vintage game systems like an NES. - Dave From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu May 2 15:44:59 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 17:44:59 -0300 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> Message-ID: >Rats. I saw several IIe-era monitors (and IIe systems, Disk II drives >etc.) in a dumpster less than an hour ago, but wasn't allowed to take >anything - I expect they're off to the crusher. :-( :'( WHY??? :o( From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu May 2 15:53:49 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 16:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Well, that was depressing. In-Reply-To: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> References: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 May 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > They just had an e-waste recycling event in town; different company to the > one that did such an event once before. Last time I was allowed to check for > vintage systems, but there wasn't anything useful there - just few-years-old > PCs. > > This time around there was an entire dumpster full of vintage Apple hardware, > but I wasn't allowed anywhere near it - it all goes back to Wisconsin for > "processing". Apparently they do occasionally ebay some vintage items, but > the way this lot had just been tossed into the dumpster makes me think that > it's all off to the crusher. (and of course there was the Disk II drive that > I need, sitting right on the top of the pile!) When such an event comes around in this area, I'll sometimes place an ad in the local Craiglist and Freecycle, asking people to consider donating their vintage equipment, rather than recycling it. I've acquired a few pieces of equipment from those. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mike at fenz.net Thu May 2 16:03:27 2013 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 09:03:27 +1200 Subject: Apple IIgs - IIe keyboard In-Reply-To: <5182C3FD.1010208@gmail.com> References: <51804EBB.9020505@gmail.com> <5182C3FD.1010208@gmail.com> Message-ID: ROM 0 machines have a lot of limitations (device compatibility, RAM expandability I think). ROM 1 and 3 are much more usable. I think they aren't so different from each other, but I'm sure there are some benefits to ROM 3. Google would probably tell us, if I had time to look it up. One thing that springs to mind is the RAM on board; I think ROM 0 and 1 had 256k, 3 had 1MB. Something like that. On 03/05/2013 07:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm not sure what I'm doing with mine yet - it probably depends on whether > the SCSI card works in both machines (and I *think* the later ROM is more > useful, allowing the system to run some stuff that the v1 ROM won't). > > cheers > > Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 2 16:13:22 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 17:13:22 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> Message-ID: SUITS! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On May 2, 2013, at 4:44 PM, "Alexandre Souza" wrote: >> Rats. I saw several IIe-era monitors (and IIe systems, Disk II drives >> etc.) in a dumpster less than an hour ago, but wasn't allowed to take >> anything - I expect they're off to the crusher. :-( > > :'( > > WHY??? :o( From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 2 16:21:35 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 15:21:35 -0600 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: <5182C273.904@jwsss.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998DA1999@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5181C68A.4090907@jwsss.com> <5182C273.904@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <5182C273.904 at jwsss.com>, Jim Stephens writes: > thanks for the looks, I appreciate you have seen far more terminals than > most and took a look. No problem. If we get it identified, let's get the highest resolution verison of that photo added to the wiki :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu May 2 16:22:23 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 18:22:23 -0300 Subject: Well, that was depressing. References: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> Message-ID: > When such an event comes around in this area, I'll sometimes place an >ad in the local Craiglist and Freecycle, asking people to consider >donating their vintage equipment, rather than recycling it. I've acquired >a few pieces of equipment from those. Can't you put a small table (or the back of your car opened) in this recycling event saying "I pay $1 for old computers!"??? :D From hachti at hachti.de Thu May 2 16:56:24 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 23:56:24 +0200 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> References: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> Message-ID: <5182E108.9030700@hachti.de> > While on the subject of Atlas and referencing another thread on this list it > would be a /real/ challenge to implement on an FPGA - > Not for the lack of circuit diagrams (I understand several copies still > exist) > Not for the use of "wired-or" (don't know if Atlas used this logic > technique, but several later Ferranti machines did) > But because it used asynchronous logic which is contrary to the design > philosophy of FPGAs (and almost all other modern logic for that matter) You can model than in synchronous logic as well. I'm very sure. More important question: Is there anyone out there having the computer to hook up the simulated tape system?!? :-) -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From jws at jwsss.com Thu May 2 17:01:26 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 15:01:26 -0700 Subject: Well, that was depressing. In-Reply-To: References: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5182E236.6040604@jwsss.com> On 5/2/2013 2:22 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> When such an event comes around in this area, I'll sometimes place an >> ad in the local Craiglist and Freecycle, asking people to consider >> donating their vintage equipment, rather than recycling it. I've acquired >> a few pieces of equipment from those. > Can't you put a small table (or the back of your car opened) in this recycling event saying "I pay $1 for old computers!"??? :D I've seen very hostile reaction to such from the "ecyclers" the ones out here are mostly thieves and don't want the competition. And then they do that. I saw two very nice macs when I just drove thru the recycling place too, but they can't touch it. There needs to be a way to fix that, it is ridiculous the way things go now. I wonder what some do that do score a lot of stuff, craigslist, or advertising? Not sure. but it is a shame to have it go to the crapper like that. Jim From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu May 2 17:21:46 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 15:21:46 -0700 Subject: Well, that was depressing. In-Reply-To: <5182E236.6040604@jwsss.com> References: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> <5182E236.6040604@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5182E6FA.30005@gmail.com> On 5/2/2013 3:01 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > On 5/2/2013 2:22 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> When such an event comes around in this area, I'll sometimes >>> place an >>> ad in the local Craiglist and Freecycle, asking people to consider >>> donating their vintage equipment, rather than recycling it. I've >>> acquired >>> a few pieces of equipment from those. >> Can't you put a small table (or the back of your car opened) in >> this recycling event saying "I pay $1 for old computers!"??? :D > I've seen very hostile reaction to such from the "ecyclers" the ones > out here are mostly thieves and don't want the competition. And then > they do that. > > I saw two very nice macs when I just drove thru the recycling place > too, but they can't touch it. There needs to be a way to fix that, it > is ridiculous the way things go now. > > I wonder what some do that do score a lot of stuff, craigslist, or > advertising? Not sure. but it is a shame to have it go to the > crapper like that. > > Jim I've worked with some of these types but, it never lasts long. The main problem is they don't know anything about computers at all. Many come from more of a waste management background and are fairly shady. The connection to gold recovery doesn't help things. As soon as you express an interest in anything they immediately suspect you are trying to rip them off. The more interest you show the more it must be worth. They are super paranoid. Many only seem to hire family members for the office and distrust everyone else that works for them. Some good non-profit ones out there but, they are usually restricted from selling things due to their non-profit status. Some do though. Some of those even sort out the vintage stuff. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu May 2 17:57:25 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 19:57:25 -0300 Subject: Well, that was depressing. References: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> <5182E236.6040604@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <2763FA4C3E4C45E7B028E511FAAEC988@tababook> >I wonder what some do that do score a lot of stuff, craigslist, or >advertising? Not sure. but it is a shame to have it go to the crapper >like that. Here in Brazil I make sure that all my friends, neighborhoods (did I spelled it right?), girlfriend(s) and enemies (who knows?!) are aware that I love old computers. And of course, I visit regulary places that buys old electronics stuff. Last week I scored a Mac Color Classic for mere $25. I'm in love with that, although it is so hard to transfer software to it (I'm looking for a JAZ or ZIP drive for that) Do the same where you live! Say "I recycle old computers" and have a happy garage full of trash! :oD From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 2 18:12:49 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 16:12:49 -0700 Subject: Well, that was depressing. In-Reply-To: <2763FA4C3E4C45E7B028E511FAAEC988@tababook> References: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> <5182E236.6040604@jwsss.com> <2763FA4C3E4C45E7B028E511FAAEC988@tababook> Message-ID: At 7:57 PM -0300 5/2/13, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >I wonder what some do that do score a lot of stuff, craigslist, or >>advertising? Not sure. but it is a shame to have it go to the crapper >>like that. > > Here in Brazil I make sure that all my friends, neighborhoods >(did I spelled it right?), girlfriend(s) and enemies (who knows?!) >are aware that I love old computers. And of course, I visit regulary >places that buys old electronics stuff. Last week I scored a Mac >Color Classic for mere $25. I'm in love with that, although it is so >hard to transfer software to it (I'm looking for a JAZ or ZIP drive >for that) > > Do the same where you live! Say "I recycle old computers" and >have a happy garage full of trash! :oD Hehe... I like the "enemies" comment. Until I moved my office, it was quite common for some piece of vintage gear, book, or software to show up on the chair in my office. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu May 2 18:16:41 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 19:16:41 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 117, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Zane H. Healy" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Cc: > Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 14:48:41 -0700 > Subject: Re: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be > At 2:37 PM -0700 5/1/13, Jim Stephens wrote: > >> imgur is a bit confusing. try this. >> >> http://imgur.com/a/6FnnP >> > > Is it sitting on something, or is the base part of it? > > If the base isn't part of it, it reminds me of the TEMPEST terminals from > Honeywell that I used on a DPS-8. > > Zane > We had hundreds of those VIP screen-mode terminals connected to a Honeywell DPS-8 in Cambridge. The big blue box had a synchronous RS-232 port to connect to a multi-drop synchronous modem and eventually to the Datanet front-end processor. The serial protocol was special for the VIP. There were two COAX cables from the big blue box to the terminal, one for the keyboard and one for video. Some of the really old versions had mercury delay lines for the video memory. -- Michael Thompson From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 2 18:56:45 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 18:56:45 -0500 Subject: Well, that was depressing. In-Reply-To: References: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5182FD3D.9070301@gmail.com> On 05/02/2013 04:22 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> When such an event comes around in this area, I'll sometimes place an >> ad in the local Craiglist and Freecycle, asking people to consider >> donating their vintage equipment, rather than recycling it. I've >> acquired a few pieces of equipment from those. > > Can't you put a small table (or the back of your car opened) in this > recycling event saying "I pay $1 for old computers!"??? :D Maybe! The kicker is that I swung by there at lunchtime about ten minutes after the thing had started. So all this Apple stuff turned up sometime in those ten minutes, and had I been there then I could have probably taken it from whoever dropped it off. :-( The guy I spoke to there (from the recyclers) was friendly enough, just worried for his job if he let anything go from the pile. I've sent the company an email just in case there's any way of stopping this from happening next time (if there is one!) - it seems like a bit of a waste of time on both sides if they have to ship this stuff ~300 miles to their facility only for me to want it and have to have it shipped ~300 miles the other way. Of course I expect it's a long shot that we can come to any kind of useful arrangement, but it doesn't hurt to try. J. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 2 19:09:27 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 19:09:27 -0500 Subject: Well, that was depressing. In-Reply-To: References: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51830037.7070808@gmail.com> On 05/02/2013 03:53 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Thu, 2 May 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> They just had an e-waste recycling event in town; different company to >> the one that did such an event once before. Last time I was allowed to >> check for vintage systems, but there wasn't anything useful there - just >> few-years-old PCs. >> >> This time around there was an entire dumpster full of vintage Apple >> hardware, but I wasn't allowed anywhere near it - it all goes back to >> Wisconsin for "processing". Apparently they do occasionally ebay some >> vintage items, but the way this lot had just been tossed into the >> dumpster makes me think that it's all off to the crusher. (and of course >> there was the Disk II drive that I need, sitting right on the top of the >> pile!) > > When such an event comes around in this area, I'll sometimes place an > ad in the local Craiglist and Freecycle, asking people to consider donating > their vintage equipment, rather than recycling it. I've acquired a few > pieces of equipment from those. Yeah, I was a little late in getting word out to some of the local facebook groups, which is where folk seem to be moving lots of items (of any kind) these days (even though it's an incredibly bad UI for that kind of thing; I think people just find it convenient as they're sat on facebook a lot anyway and don't have to put effort into visiting a different website). Freecycle around here is pretty much dead (maybe two or three posts a month). Craigslist might be a good bet, though. What I really need is a way of getting the word out that I'm interested in this kind of stuff at any time, not when I just happen to mention it on . Back when I lived in the UK, a lot of people knew that I was into this kind of stuff and would send other people in my direction when they happened to mention that they had something (a bit like Zane's comment about vintage things just randomly showing up!) - but it took a long time to get to that point, and it's harder here because it's the middle of nowhere and never was a high-tech area. Maybe I just need to paint a sign on the side of the van or something :-) cheers Jules From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu May 2 19:53:41 2013 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 17:53:41 -0700 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: <5182C273.904@jwsss.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998DA1999@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5181C68A.4090907@jwsss.com> <5182C273.904@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I think the one you have that is "squarish" on the right of the photos on > that page is the style that Honeywell used for airline uses, and is hard to > tell at a glance from one made by Univac. I had a Univac which looked > almost identical to that one with an 8080. > I also think it is an early airline terminal. Some of them had a non standard connectors. A photo of the connector would also be valuable. Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 2 20:31:48 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 20:31:48 -0500 Subject: Well, that was depressing. In-Reply-To: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> References: <5182C585.8020107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201305030135.r431Z9eM017245@mx1.ezwind.net> At 02:59 PM 5/2/2013, you wrote: >This time around there was an entire dumpster full of vintage Apple hardware, but I wasn't allowed anywhere near it - it all goes back to Wisconsin for "processing". Any idea where it goes? Cascade Asset Management in Madison? That place in Eau Claire mentioned a few weeks ago? I know it's sad, but I don't know how it could be any other way. If you want lots of people to give you stuff, you need to have a business model to accept it all. If so, you need to have a way to dispose of most of it. You can't afford to have a model that promises the givers that their hard drives will be erased at the same time you want to charge a decent price for an original software-filled drive to the classic computer collector. You don't want to deal with the people who will return to you angry because they can't install Windows 7 on that Mac Plus. On top of it all, the only way to make it all profitable is to scrap most of it for copper, iron, lead, and gold. - John From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu May 2 22:24:15 2013 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (Bill Layer) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 22:24:15 -0500 Subject: intel mds225 for sale In-Reply-To: <5181A040.4050402@mich.com> References: <5181A040.4050402@mich.com> Message-ID: Err.. the IBM PCs were beige, not white.. ;-) At least in the 51XX era. Oh well, lol. On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Dave Mabry wrote: > What the Intel representative told me at the time they switched from blue > to white was...since IBM PC's were white Intel decided to make the MDS > white. No difference otherwise. > > Bill Layer said the following on 5/1/2013 6:48 PM: > > Not to hijack, but I happen to have one of these - but it's white in >> color. >> Anyone know the difference? >> >> >> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Adrian Stoness >> wrote: >> >> one of the guys at my hackerspace has a intel mds 225 its power up to >>> diag >>> mode when the board is pulled from the back plane but when inserted the >>> screen goes all fuzzed and crazy never been able to trouble shoot it gone >>> over it with a meter pulled all cables boards out put them back in >>> >>> has pile of software and manuals and drawings to go with it >>> and a prom rom programer reader and a another device of some sort >>> >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/**1ajs/6171038488/lightbox/ >>> >>> funds going to supporting a community hackerspace. >>> if i was not broke i would just buy it myself to add to pegcity bits >>> >>> i can get a video of it powering up if anyone wants to see >>> >>> make offers >>> o its located in winnipeg canada >>> >>> >> > From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu May 2 18:16:41 2013 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 18:16:41 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> Most thrift stores I go to still have a good assortment of CRT TVs. - Marty Sent from my iPad On May 2, 2013, at 3:39 PM, David Riley wrote: > On May 2, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >>> it's RGB only. >> >> Rats. I saw several IIe-era monitors (and IIe systems, Disk II drives etc.) in a dumpster less than an hour ago, but wasn't allowed to take anything - I expect they're off to the crusher. :-( > > Any old CRT TV is generally a decent monitor for the IIe and similar. The > cheaper, the better; you want good, fuzzy pixels. :-) Modern LCD TVs, > when they'll sync at all (mine has trouble) look like garbage, partly > because they're much sharper. > > If you know a good dump, chances are you can find cheap-ass CRT TVs from > the mid-'90s that will do a fine job for your purposes. Same goes if you > try to run vintage game systems like an NES. > > > - Dave > > From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri May 3 08:50:08 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 08:50:08 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> Message-ID: It would be nice to figure out a good common TV set that could be adapted to Analog RGB or CGA. On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Most thrift stores I go to still have a good assortment of CRT TVs. > > - > Marty > > Sent from my iPad > > On May 2, 2013, at 3:39 PM, David Riley wrote: > > > On May 2, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >>> it's RGB only. > >> > >> Rats. I saw several IIe-era monitors (and IIe systems, Disk II drives > etc.) in a dumpster less than an hour ago, but wasn't allowed to take > anything - I expect they're off to the crusher. :-( > > > > Any old CRT TV is generally a decent monitor for the IIe and similar. > The > > cheaper, the better; you want good, fuzzy pixels. :-) Modern LCD TVs, > > when they'll sync at all (mine has trouble) look like garbage, partly > > because they're much sharper. > > > > If you know a good dump, chances are you can find cheap-ass CRT TVs from > > the mid-'90s that will do a fine job for your purposes. Same goes if you > > try to run vintage game systems like an NES. > > > > > > - Dave > > > > > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri May 3 08:59:27 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 10:59:27 -0300 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3E3620F524414385935C67B59A6684B8@tababook> Why don't you use a LCD? You can use 15-khz-aware LCDs... Samsungs 510N, 710N, 910N, 910T and LGs M1521A, M1721A, M1921A are all useable in 15Khz machines. I have a M1721A in my desk, which I use on MSX, Amiga and Sinclair computers...it even runs 50Hz machines! And, of course, you can use a upscaler. There are lots of them for cheap in Ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Arcade-game-RGB-CGA-EGA-YUV-to-VGA-HD-video-converter-board-HD9800-GBS8200-/170860805754?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c818fe7a is an example (I don't know the seller, etc). They work flawlessly. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoffrey Oltmans To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 10:50 AM Subject: Re: Apple IIe keyboard switches It would be nice to figure out a good common TV set that could be adapted to Analog RGB or CGA. On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Most thrift stores I go to still have a good assortment of CRT TVs. > > - > Marty > > Sent from my iPad > > On May 2, 2013, at 3:39 PM, David Riley wrote: > > > On May 2, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >>> it's RGB only. > >> > >> Rats. I saw several IIe-era monitors (and IIe systems, Disk II drives > etc.) in a dumpster less than an hour ago, but wasn't allowed to take > anything - I expect they're off to the crusher. :-( > > > > Any old CRT TV is generally a decent monitor for the IIe and similar. > The > > cheaper, the better; you want good, fuzzy pixels. :-) Modern LCD TVs, > > when they'll sync at all (mine has trouble) look like garbage, partly > > because they're much sharper. > > > > If you know a good dump, chances are you can find cheap-ass CRT TVs from > > the mid-'90s that will do a fine job for your purposes. Same goes if you > > try to run vintage game systems like an NES. > > > > > > - Dave > > > > > > From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri May 3 09:13:42 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 09:13:42 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <3E3620F524414385935C67B59A6684B8@tababook> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> <3E3620F524414385935C67B59A6684B8@tababook> Message-ID: Interesting. None of the LCD TVs that we have in our house will sync to any scan rates less than the 31kHz standard VGA. On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > Why don't you use a LCD? > > You can use 15-khz-aware LCDs... Samsungs 510N, 710N, 910N, 910T and > LGs M1521A, M1721A, M1921A are all useable in 15Khz machines. I have a > M1721A in my desk, which I use on MSX, Amiga and Sinclair computers...it > even runs 50Hz machines! > > And, of course, you can use a upscaler. There are lots of them for > cheap in Ebay. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Arcade-game-RGB-CGA-EGA-YUV-to-VGA-HD-video-converter-board-HD9800-GBS8200-/170860805754?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c818fe7ais an example (I don't know the seller, etc). They work flawlessly. > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Geoffrey Oltmans > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 10:50 AM > Subject: Re: Apple IIe keyboard switches > > > It would be nice to figure out a good common TV set that could be adapted > to Analog RGB or CGA. > > > On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Martin Goldberg > wrote: > > > Most thrift stores I go to still have a good assortment of CRT TVs. > > > > - > > Marty > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 3:39 PM, David Riley wrote: > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Jules Richardson < > > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >>> it's RGB only. > > >> > > >> Rats. I saw several IIe-era monitors (and IIe systems, Disk II > drives > > etc.) in a dumpster less than an hour ago, but wasn't allowed to take > > anything - I expect they're off to the crusher. :-( > > > > > > Any old CRT TV is generally a decent monitor for the IIe and similar. > > The > > > cheaper, the better; you want good, fuzzy pixels. :-) Modern LCD > TVs, > > > when they'll sync at all (mine has trouble) look like garbage, partly > > > because they're much sharper. > > > > > > If you know a good dump, chances are you can find cheap-ass CRT TVs > from > > > the mid-'90s that will do a fine job for your purposes. Same goes > if you > > > try to run vintage game systems like an NES. > > > > > > > > > - Dave > > > > > > > > > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri May 3 09:15:00 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 10:15:00 -0400 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> Message-ID: On May 3, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > It would be nice to figure out a good common TV set that could be adapted > to Analog RGB or CGA. CGA is less likely, since it's not really analog. Analog RGB is already pretty well supported by SCART, but that's not much help to those of us in the US or anywhere that's not Britain. It's silly in a way, since the signal has to be converted to RGB internally to display on the CRT, but most manufacturers weren't interested in spending money on connectors and circuitry that almost no one would use. The Apple IIgs monitor scans at 15 KHz, though, so it's actually a pretty good candidate for analog RGB. I use it to test arcade boards, which generally scan at 15 KHz as well. Any other arcade monitor ought to do the trick. It's harder to find VGA monitors that will do it (even LCDs, which is a shame because it's really only a matter of firmware with them). Clarification to the above: 15 KHz refers to the horizontal scan rate; vertical (in the US) is 30 or 60 Hz, depending on how you count the interlaced frames if you have them (arcade monitors are generally not interlaced, but TVs and anything that takes the standard composite TV signal are). - Dave From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri May 3 09:27:19 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 09:27:19 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> Message-ID: Do the keyswitches look like the ones from the early Mac keyboards? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keyswitch-for-Macintosh-128k-512k-or-Mac-Plus-keyboard-/380465688249?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item589585aeb9 On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > I acquired an Apple IIe at the dump the other day (and a pair of IIgs > machines, sans keyboards/mice - more on those later, probably). > > Something heavy has been dropped on the keyboard - there's no damage to > the keytops (amazingly), but the keyboard PCB is cracked and the frame > mounting points bent, and in testing switches around the damaged area I've > found that the '=' key is permanently shorted (I assume it took the brunt > of the impact from whatever-it-was, unless the switches in these machines > are prone to decay and subsequent shorting). > > Anyway, is it just a case of desoldering the switch and prying it out of > the metal frame, or is there more to it than that? I did try a little > careful coaxing and it didn't want to move, but I don't want to try more > force if it's the wrong approach. > > cheers > > Jules > From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri May 3 09:32:28 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 09:32:28 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 9:15 AM, David Riley wrote: The Apple IIgs monitor scans at 15 KHz, though, so it's actually > a pretty good candidate for analog RGB. I use it to test arcade > boards, which generally scan at 15 KHz as well. Any other arcade > monitor ought to do the trick. It's harder to find VGA monitors > that will do it (even LCDs, which is a shame because it's really > only a matter of firmware with them). > Same here, except I use a Amiga 1080 monitor. I've also used it with some arcade board sets as well, and it's probably a tad bigger than the IIgs monitor. ;) From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri May 3 09:35:19 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 11:35:19 -0300 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> <3E3620F524414385935C67B59A6684B8@tababook> Message-ID: <79358E32EB674EA5BF8D0EF2A7F51216@tababook> >Interesting. None of the LCD TVs that we have in our house will sync to any >scan rates less than the 31kHz standard VGA. Sometimes you gotta use a LM1881 (sync separator) on the CSYNC signal, or - gasp - do not connect the Vsync signal to the monitor whatsoever! This is very common in the samsung monitors. A pair of useful links (sorry, in portuguese, use google translator): http://www.msxpro.com/rgb-vga-universal.html http://www.msxpro.com/rgb-vga.html And using the scandoubler http://www.msxpro.com/rgb-vga_gbs-8200.html Hope that helps...I though it was a common subject for you americans :) It is very common for us brazilians to use these LCD monitors with old computers. From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri May 3 10:01:52 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 10:01:52 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <79358E32EB674EA5BF8D0EF2A7F51216@tababook> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> <3E3620F524414385935C67B59A6684B8@tababook> <79358E32EB674EA5BF8D0EF2A7F51216@tababook> Message-ID: On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > This is very common in the samsung monitors. > > A pair of useful links (sorry, in portuguese, use google translator): > http://www.msxpro.com/rgb-vga-universal.html > http://www.msxpro.com/rgb-vga.html > > And using the scandoubler > http://www.msxpro.com/rgb-vga_gbs-8200.html > > Interesting information, thanks for the links! From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri May 3 13:33:23 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 14:33:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 May 2013, David Riley wrote: > On May 3, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > >> It would be nice to figure out a good common TV set that could be adapted >> to Analog RGB or CGA. > > CGA is less likely, since it's not really analog. Analog RGB is > already pretty well supported by SCART, but that's not much help > to those of us in the US or anywhere that's not Britain. It's > silly in a way, since the signal has to be converted to RGB > internally to display on the CRT, but most manufacturers weren't > interested in spending money on connectors and circuitry that > almost no one would use. No currently-manufactured sets available in the US have SCART inputs, but the Samsung 730MW and 940MW both are so equipped and frequently appear on eBay. Either makes a great solution for display of analog RGB from vintage gear (I have one of each). Unfortunately for us Apple 2 enthusiasts, the Apple //e composite video has a non-standard dot-clock and doesn't look very good on the Samsung units (or any scan-converter I've tried, for that matter). I have to keep one or two composite CRT monitors on hand. Steve -- From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 3 13:54:58 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 12:54:58 -0600 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... Message-ID: This looks like an easy way to get started. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 3 14:06:26 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 15:06:26 -0400 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51840AB2.4000902@gmail.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Unfortunately for us Apple 2 enthusiasts, the Apple //e composite video > has a non-standard dot-clock and doesn't look very good on the Samsung > units (or any scan-converter I've tried, for that matter). I have to > keep one or two composite CRT monitors on hand. Might be time to build a scan converter specifically for the //e. Peace... Sridhar From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 3 14:06:56 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 20:06:56 +0100 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51840AD0.6090303@gmail.com> On 03/05/2013 19:54, Richard wrote: > This looks like an easy way to get started. > > > Thanks Richard, Those both look usefull even as I progress. Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri May 3 14:36:17 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 15:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <3E3620F524414385935C67B59A6684B8@tababook> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> <3E3620F524414385935C67B59A6684B8@tababook> Message-ID: <201305031936.PAA19188@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Why don't you use a LCD? I can't speak for others. But, personally, the principal reason is, they typically look like crap when displaying at anything but their native resolution and are too stupid to be told to fix it. If the display in question has an option to black-surround rather than scaling, that would help - but it's been a long time since I saw one of those. (Ideal would probably be to scale by the largest possible _integer_ factor, but I don't think I've ever seen that, at all.) Often, even when scaling, they get it wrong - I regularly see peecee BIOS text consoles (which you'd think would be the best-supported case for scaling) cutting off one or even two character positions on one side or the other. While it isn't likely to apply to the IIe case, I also find flatscreens obnoxious because, when fed higher resolution than they expect, they don't display _anything_. A CRT will generally squish it to fit and (perforce) drop pixels because the shadow mask is too coarse, but it'll usually do something recognizable. Admittedly, this is not a fault with the basic technology but a fault of the interface logic, but it correlates well enough with the basic technology in my experience. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hachti at hachti.de Fri May 3 15:06:40 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 22:06:40 +0200 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> Am 03.05.2013 20:54, schrieb Richard: > This looks like an easy way to get started. > > > Nice board. But I don't know if the FT2232 JTAG solution works under Linux. And the JTAG connector on the board is blocked... With that in his "pure Windows mind" one could have much fun with the board :-) Digilent has nice FPGA boards as well: http://www.digilentinc.com My favorite board is still the old S3-Board. I have two of them. I also have two S3E boards and a (non Digilent) Virtex-4P board. But I still like the S3 Board most for everyday playing. Kind regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 3 15:39:13 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 13:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130503133325.T69169@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 3 May 2013, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > It would be nice to figure out a good common TV set that could be adapted > to Analog RGB or CGA. For B&W, I'm partial to the 1970s RCA, like the one on Al Bundy's kitchen counter. Pull the tuner out, convert to composite input, put a grommet in the volume control knob hole for input cable, and paint it gray. Then you have the TRS80 model 1 monitor. Instead of leaving the tuner space vacant, you can mount a full height (or 2 half height) 5.25" floppy there. (a piece of mu-metal helps). Don Lancaster wrote a few books on making monitors out of TV sets. Oh. You probably meant something current. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri May 3 15:40:42 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 17:40:42 -0300 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> <3E3620F524414385935C67B59A6684B8@tababook> <201305031936.PAA19188@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <7B1F6E1E013545098BFA30639F2F0B69@tababook> >I can't speak for others. But, personally, the principal reason is, >they typically look like crap when displaying at anything but their >native resolution and are too stupid to be told to fix it. Please, use a M1721A or M1921A...You'll be VERY surprised. Do you want me to take some photos using classic computers (I have here ZX81, MSX, Amiga that I can photograph today) and show them up on a page? From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri May 3 15:54:30 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 16:54:30 -0400 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> Message-ID: <2793AC42-8E37-4914-8EE6-1FD9EE916B21@gmail.com> On May 3, 2013, at 4:06 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Am 03.05.2013 20:54, schrieb Richard: >> This looks like an easy way to get started. >> >> >> > Nice board. > But I don't know if the FT2232 JTAG solution works under Linux. And the JTAG connector on the board is blocked... With that in his "pure Windows mind" one could have much fun with the board :-) It absolutely SHOULD (which doesn't mean that it does) work using OpenOCD. That probably doesn't mesh nicely with vendor-supplied JTAG tools, though I know at least Xilinx's iMPACT tool is somewhat extensible because Digilent has an extension for it. If it works through OpenOCD, though, you should at least be able to make the Xilinx tools spit out something that you can program in there that way. I've never programmed FPGAs using OpenOCD, but I certainly see a non-zero amount of related traffic on their development mailing list about it. - Dave From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri May 3 16:58:49 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 17:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <51840AB2.4000902@gmail.com> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> <51840AB2.4000902@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 May 2013, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Unfortunately for us Apple 2 enthusiasts, the Apple //e composite video >> has a non-standard dot-clock and doesn't look very good on the Samsung >> units (or any scan-converter I've tried, for that matter). I have to >> keep one or two composite CRT monitors on hand. > > Might be time to build a scan converter specifically for the //e. I'd love to have such a thing. Wish I had the requisite knowledge to design it. -- From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 3 17:24:47 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 15:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: <2793AC42-8E37-4914-8EE6-1FD9EE916B21@gmail.com> References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> <2793AC42-8E37-4914-8EE6-1FD9EE916B21@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 May 2013, David Riley wrote: > OpenOCD. That probably doesn't mesh nicely with vendor-supplied Shouldn't that be OpenCDO? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 3 16:11:00 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 22:11:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [cctalk] Re: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: <5182BACF.4020301@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 2, 13 03:13:19 pm Message-ID: > > On 05/02/2013 02:00 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> 40-pin chip is that "8031". However, you may be right - week 31 of 1980 > >> isn't unreasonable. And this is just the external interface card. > > > > Actually, 1980 would be far too early for a CD-ROM drive, surely? > > The 8031 has no internal program ROM, so the copyright date will be > for the processor, not the ROM contents, and 1980 is exactly the right > year for an 8031. Sure. But if it's an 8031 (which, given the extra infroamtion now looks likely), teh '8031' number could eb the part number, not a date code. If the IC was a custom CD-ROM data extractor-thingy (as in the drive I have the docs on), then it would surely have been made a lot later than 1980. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 3 17:44:28 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 23:44:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <20130503133325.T69169@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 3, 13 01:39:13 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 3 May 2013, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > > It would be nice to figure out a good common TV set that could be adapted > > to Analog RGB or CGA. > > For B&W, I'm partial to the 1970s RCA, like the one on Al Bundy's kitchen > counter. Pull the tuner out, convert to composite input, put a grommet in The thing I dislike about that chessis is that it's 'hot'. It's directly conencted to the mains. That's why the US version of the visdeo input PCB (which fits in place of the IF strip PCB) in the TRS-80 M1 monitor has an opto-isolator on it, The driver for that optoisolaotr needs a +5V feed from the computer, which makes it not so easy to use with other machines. The European verion, btw has a step-down _isolating_ transofrmer on the mains input to covert 220V maisn to the 115V needed by the TV chassis. So the video input PCB is just a transistor amplifier with no opto-isolator. Incidntally, I maanged to get one of those monitors to do MDA scan rates by tweakign the hold controls. It wasn't very happy, but it did produce an image which was good enough to see there was something in the vidoe signal. I would not want to runt it at such rates for very long. > the volume control knob hole for input cable, and paint it gray. Then you You men the 'V' over that hole doesn't stand for 'video' :-) (Yes, I know the volume cotnrol was there in the TV version, somewhere I have the M1 monitor service manual which is the RCA TV manual with some bits missed out and an extra section for the video input PCB). > have the TRS80 model 1 monitor. Instead of leaving the tuner space > vacant, you can mount a full height (or 2 half height) 5.25" floppy there. > (a piece of mu-metal helps). > > Don Lancaster wrote a few books on making monitors out of TV sets. > > > Oh. > You probably meant something current. A few years ago over here there were some cheap 5" B&W TVs (with an AM/FM radio built in). They run off intenral batteris, or a 12V input (a car battery cable and mains adapter were genreally suppleid with said sets). I bought a couple with the intention of addign a compositie input socket, only when I got them home did I realsie that said facility was standard. Although I'd not want to sue a 5" montior all day, they are very handy on the workbench for g]checking if a home compute is producing any output. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri May 3 18:18:36 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 19:18:36 -0400 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> <2793AC42-8E37-4914-8EE6-1FD9EE916B21@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BD2A516-C276-4204-B78B-6F4FACC13CA1@gmail.com> On May 3, 2013, at 18:24, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 3 May 2013, David Riley wrote: > >> OpenOCD. That probably doesn't mesh nicely with vendor-supplied > > Shouldn't that be OpenCDO? I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but in case not, no. OCD in this case stands for On Chip Debugger. It originated as an ARM- only project, but now supports quite a few architectures as well as generic JTAG manipulation. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 3 18:25:07 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 19:25:07 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: <5BD2A516-C276-4204-B78B-6F4FACC13CA1@gmail.com> References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> <2793AC42-8E37-4914-8EE6-1FD9EE916B21@gmail.com> <5BD2A516-C276-4204-B78B-6F4FACC13CA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51844753.4030407@neurotica.com> On 05/03/2013 07:18 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> OpenOCD. That probably doesn't mesh nicely with vendor-supplied >> >> Shouldn't that be OpenCDO? > > I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but in case not, no. OCD in > this case stands for On Chip Debugger. It originated as an ARM- > only project, but now supports quite a few architectures as well > as generic JTAG manipulation. I use it for my ARM work with an FTDI-based Olimex JTAG dongle. It works great under OS X and Linux. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Fri May 3 18:38:01 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 16:38:01 -0700 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51844A59.50801@jwsss.com> On 5/3/2013 11:54 AM, Richard wrote: > This looks like an easy way to get started. > > That board has front panel written all over it. I would think one could use it for the blinking lights and switches and use another board w/o all the flash for the system. And you'd have an extra console port, etc., to boot. thanks Jim From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri May 3 20:52:22 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 22:52:22 -0300 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> <51840AB2.4000902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <21E6066BDEE541E4B51B8870F86FFF85@tababook> >> Unfortunately for us Apple 2 enthusiasts, the Apple //e composite video >> has a non-standard dot-clock and doesn't look very good on the Samsung >> units (or any scan-converter I've tried, for that matter). I have to >> keep one or two composite CRT monitors on hand. I don't have an original //e (what a dream...) but the brazilian clone, the TK3000//e, has an excellent image on the LG M1721A monitor... From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 3 22:20:56 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 21:20:56 -0600 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> Message-ID: In article <518418D0.8030705 at hachti.de>, Philipp Hachtmann writes: > Am 03.05.2013 20:54, schrieb Richard: > > This looks like an easy way to get started. > > > > > > > Nice board. What I liked about this one is that they've got a modified Arduino IDE to program to it (I think that's only for the softcore processor on the FPGA, though) and they have a collection of daughter boards they call "wings" for quickly adding certain kinds of functionality. The Logic Start MegaWing is kind of like those old Heathkit ET trainers and there is a couple of megawings dedicated to making your own arcade game. There are a number of mini wings too. SparkFun sells the 500K gate version: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From keithvz at verizon.net Fri May 3 22:24:19 2013 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 23:24:19 -0400 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> Message-ID: <51847F63.6000606@verizon.net> On 5/3/2013 4:06 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Digilent has nice FPGA boards as well: http://www.digilentinc.com > My favorite board is still the old S3-Board. I have two of them. > I also have two S3E boards and a (non Digilent) Virtex-4P board. But I > still like the S3 Board most for everyday playing. Second the Digilent recommendation. I also have an S3E board. I ALMOST recommended Anthony Burch "BurchED" education videos from Australia, except when I googled I couldn't find it, and it appears to since have gone offline. It's a shame because they were good for beginners. Keith From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri May 3 23:12:09 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 00:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <7B1F6E1E013545098BFA30639F2F0B69@tababook> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> <3E3620F524414385935C67B59A6684B8@tababook> <201305031936.PAA19188@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7B1F6E1E013545098BFA30639F2F0B69@tababook> Message-ID: <201305040412.AAA21405@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I can't speak for others. But, personally, the principal reason is, >> they typically look like crap when displaying at anything but their >> native resolution and are too stupid to be told to fix it. > Please, use a M1721A or M1921A...You'll be VERY surprised. I take it those are model numbers? Which manufacturer(s)? I'm glad to hear there are non-braindamaged flatscreens; my experience of them must be an artifact of the ones I've encountered. (Not entirely surprising, since many - most, I think - of them have been at work and thus likely to be el-cheapo models....) > Do you want me to take some photos using classic computers (I have here ZX81$ I'd be curious, but only mildly; I'm perfectly willing to take your word for it that the models you name are non-stupid about such things. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jws at jwsss.com Fri May 3 23:24:47 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 21:24:47 -0700 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: <51847F63.6000606@verizon.net> References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> <51847F63.6000606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <51848D8F.8020701@jwsss.com> On 5/3/2013 8:24 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > Anthony Burch "BurchED" http://web.archive.org/web/20070704151655/http://www.burched.com/ last strong samples were in 2007. For support, email Tony Burch at tony at burched.com.au Maybe he might still take email, the domain is just not serving up anything and had a response 302 (whatever that is) in 2011 to a crawl request. Jim From b4 at gewt.net Fri May 3 23:30:52 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 04:30:52 -0000 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> <51847F63.6000606@verizon.net> <51848D8F.8020701@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <84E6D63C-46F0-4258-B878-3090ED27D7BD@gewt.net> On 4 May 2013, at 00:24, "Jim Stephens" wrote: > > > On 5/3/2013 8:24 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: >> Anthony Burch "BurchED" > http://web.archive.org/web/20070704151655/http://www.burched.com/ > > last strong samples were in 2007. > > For support, email Tony Burch at tony at burched.com.au > > Maybe he might still take email, the domain is just not serving up anything and had a response 302 (whatever that is) in 2011 to a crawl request. Isn't 302 moved permanently? It's either moved temporarily or permanently. I forget which. > > Jim From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri May 3 23:36:11 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 01:36:11 -0300 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> <51810253.3050103@fenz.net> <5182C26B.5010407@gmail.com> <807F6F43-C567-4B42-B40C-AC20447B2B76@gmail.com> <3E3620F524414385935C67B59A6684B8@tababook> <201305031936.PAA19188@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7B1F6E1E013545098BFA30639F2F0B69@tababook> <201305040412.AAA21405@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: >I take it those are model numbers? Which manufacturer(s)? Google would have helped :) LG monitors, seems to be avaiable in USA. They have composite video, S-Video, RGB and Aerial (with optional tuner module) inputs. >I'm glad to hear there are non-braindamaged flatscreens; my experience >of them must be an artifact of the ones I've encountered. (Not >entirely surprising, since many - most, I think - of them have been at >work and thus likely to be el-cheapo models....) Yep, the LG M1*21A are better monitors than Samsung's for this kind of use > Do you want me to take some photos using classic computers (I have here ZX81$ >I'd be curious, but only mildly; I'm perfectly willing to take your >word for it that the models you name are non-stupid about such things. I'll do better, as soon as I have some free time, I'll do a complete page about connecting old gear to these monitors, with schematics and detailed photos...It is a good project for this month (talking about this month...My birthday is on 24th of May...Of course I accept all kinds of old computer gear, incluiding apple //GS, Sinclair Spectrum +2/+3 and other old and fun computers :D) :oD Alexandre :o) From keithvz at verizon.net Fri May 3 23:43:26 2013 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 00:43:26 -0400 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: <51848D8F.8020701@jwsss.com> References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> <51847F63.6000606@verizon.net> <51848D8F.8020701@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <518491EE.4040500@verizon.net> On 5/4/2013 12:24 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > On 5/3/2013 8:24 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: >> Anthony Burch "BurchED" > http://web.archive.org/web/20070704151655/http://www.burched.com/ > > last strong samples were in 2007. > > For support, email Tony Burch at tony at burched.com.au > > > Maybe he might still take email, the domain is just not serving up > anything and had a response 302 (whatever that is) in 2011 to a crawl > request. > > Jim Thanks, I did that almost simultaneously when posting here....anthony at burched.com bounced, which was also a previously used proper address. Keith From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 4 02:39:54 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 09:39:54 +0200 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20130504093954.49b5ad360b3a33bb8ed1db58@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 03 May 2013 22:06:40 +0200 Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > But I don't know if the FT2232 JTAG solution works under Linux. Usually FT2232 JTAG adapters work quite well on Linux. If you jump some links you get to the download page of the "FPGA - Papilio Loader" http://gadgetforge.gadgetfactory.net/gf/project/butterflyloader/ which redirects to you to GIThub where you can find: https://github.com/GadgetFactory/Papilio-Loader/blob/master/xc3sprog/trunk/README.papilio that states: ----- To build for the Papilio board on linux: git clone https://github.com/GadgetFactory/Papilio-Loader.git apt-get install cmake mkdir build; cd build; cmake ..; make To load a bit file to FPGA on the Papilio board ./xc3sprog -c papilio ../../../Helper_App/Quickstart-Papilio_One_500K-v1.5.bit -v ----- Looks like everything is there to play it on Linux. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat May 4 07:06:05 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 08:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: <51847F63.6000606@verizon.net> References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> <51847F63.6000606@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 May 2013, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 5/3/2013 4:06 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> Digilent has nice FPGA boards as well: http://www.digilentinc.com >> My favorite board is still the old S3-Board. I have two of them. >> I also have two S3E boards and a (non Digilent) Virtex-4P board. But I >> still like the S3 Board most for everyday playing. > > Second the Digilent recommendation. I also have an S3E board. > > I ALMOST recommended Anthony Burch "BurchED" education videos from Australia, > except when I googled I couldn't find it, and it appears to since have gone > offline. > > It's a shame because they were good for beginners. You bet. I had subscribed to his web courses, but they disappeared before I had a chance to work my way through. That's what I get for procrastination. If he could no longer afford the site, the gentlemanly thing to do would have been to release them for archival purposes. Another strong point in favor of the opensource philosophy. Steve -- From cclist at sytse.net Sat May 4 07:49:18 2013 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 14:49:18 +0200 Subject: RSX-11Mplus boot SAV -- Cannot find Home Block on fpga pdp2011 Message-ID: <4665751.nuFhqYhmiL@i5.sytse.net> I've long thought that my pdp2011 would run just about anything pdp11. However, it was recently brought to my attention that RSX-11Mplus will not boot from an rp06 disk image. I mean, an rp06 image created on simh, based on the rd54 image in rsx11mpbl87.dsk.bz2, sysgenned to support rp06 drives, and working without any problem on simh. The first steps in the boot on the fpga appear to work fine - several reads are done, and the first message appears: "RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6 BL87 1024.KW System:"RSXMPL". So far exactly the same as when I run simh on the same image. However, after a brief pause in which the cpu is busy, a difference appears: simh will continue with a few reads and finish the boot process; however, my fpga will start reading sectors from each cylinder of the disk in ascending order - ie, beginning at cyl 0 and ending at the last one. When at the last cylinder, the message "SAV -- Cannot find Home Block" appears. Strangely, if I google that, it comes up with a reference to Ersatz-11 from 1994 which appears to describe exactly the same behaviour - only then on RL, apparently. See ftp://minnie.tuhs.org/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Ersatz-1.1beta/Old/e11beta.txt I've spent most of my free time last week chewing on this problem, looking at many details in my controller vhdl. However, I've not come any closer to a solution. At this point, I'm not even completely sure that the problem actually is in the controller - since E11 had the same thing in it's RL, and that is a completely different thing. So, I'm hoping that someone on this list can help me understand what the trigger(s) for the "SAV -- Cannot find Home Block" could be. Is there maybe someone who remembers the original issue in E11, and how it was fixed? Or is there someone with access to the source code who could explain what happens? From dave13 at dunfield.com Sat May 4 09:29:48 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 09:29:48 -0500 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available Message-ID: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> For various reasons I am looking to downsize my classic computer collection over the next few years. The collection can be seen at: www.classiccmp.org/dunfield [Keep trying if it says "service unavailable" - the classiccmp server seems to be having problems lately] Most of the system depicted are available. A few I will keep, a few are already placed, and a few are "on loan" and will be returned to their owners, but most of the systems shown are available (as well as a few which have not been processed yet). If you are interested in one or more systems from my site, please contact me off-list and let me know specifically what you are interested in. All of the equipment is located near Ottawa, Ontario Canada. If anyone is interested in the entire collection, let me know and perhaps we can work something out. If there is serious interest in the whole collection, I can make a detailed inventory of exactly what would be available. Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat May 4 08:37:08 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 06:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: <5BD2A516-C276-4204-B78B-6F4FACC13CA1@gmail.com> References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> <2793AC42-8E37-4914-8EE6-1FD9EE916B21@gmail.com> <5BD2A516-C276-4204-B78B-6F4FACC13CA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 May 2013, David Riley wrote: > On May 3, 2013, at 18:24, geneb wrote: > >> On Fri, 3 May 2013, David Riley wrote: >> >>> OpenOCD. That probably doesn't mesh nicely with vendor-supplied >> >> Shouldn't that be OpenCDO? > > I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but in case not, no. OCD in > this case stands for On Chip Debugger. It originated as an ARM- > only project, but now supports quite a few architectures as well > as generic JTAG manipulation. > Yes, it was a joke. --> http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/OWD/OWD15005_500.jpeg (Well _I_ thought it was funny....) :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat May 4 08:54:19 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 06:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 May 2013, Dave Dunfield wrote: > For various reasons I am looking to downsize my classic > computer collection over the next few years. > > The collection can be seen at: www.classiccmp.org/dunfield > > [Keep trying if it says "service unavailable" - the classiccmp > server seems to be having problems lately] > Most of the picture links appear broken. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From db at db.net Sat May 4 09:17:27 2013 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 09:17:27 -0500 Subject: Box of old books Message-ID: <20130504141727.GA17368@night.db.net> I've put together a small box of old TTL books, computer references of all sorts that I simply do not want anymore. If someone really wants to collect old databooks instead of me sending this stuff out to pulp let me know. It would be easiest if someone local to me here in Ottawa could deal with it. The other alternative is for me to get it moved to Toronto for someone else to deal with it. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat May 4 09:35:47 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 10:35:47 -0400 Subject: RSX-11Mplus boot SAV -- Cannot find Home Block on fpga pdp2011 In-Reply-To: <4665751.nuFhqYhmiL@i5.sytse.net> References: <4665751.nuFhqYhmiL@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <1A6EA34F-FB81-40A9-BD7E-F9DBF3332964@gmail.com> On May 4, 2013, at 8:49, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > So, I'm hoping that someone on this list can help me understand what the > trigger(s) for the "SAV -- Cannot find Home Block" could be. Is there maybe > someone who remembers the original issue in E11, and how it was fixed? Or is > there someone with access to the source code who could explain what happens? Well, John Wilson might know a thing or two. :-) - Dave From keithvz at verizon.net Sat May 4 12:14:44 2013 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 13:14:44 -0400 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: References: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <51854204.90209@verizon.net> On 5/4/2013 9:54 AM, geneb wrote: > On Sat, 4 May 2013, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> For various reasons I am looking to downsize my classic >> computer collection over the next few years. >> >> The collection can be seen at: www.classiccmp.org/dunfield >> >> [Keep trying if it says "service unavailable" - the classiccmp >> server seems to be having problems lately] >> > Most of the picture links appear broken. :( > > g. > He's definitely having some trouble. Hitting F5 here or there, and I get some pictures that load, some that don't. It's not consistent from load to load, so either there's too many connections, or not enough bandwidth, or something. Keith From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sat May 4 13:54:32 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 15:54:32 -0300 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> <2793AC42-8E37-4914-8EE6-1FD9EE916B21@gmail.com> <5BD2A516-C276-4204-B78B-6F4FACC13CA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, it was a joke. --> http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/OWD/OWD15005_500.jpeg (Well _I_ thought it was funny....) :) === Please, choose one finger to make me laugh... (Gene chooses) Ha ha ha. :P From wilson at dbit.com Sat May 4 14:00:03 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 15:00:03 -0400 Subject: RSX-11Mplus boot SAV -- Cannot find Home Block on fpga pdp2011 In-Reply-To: <4665751.nuFhqYhmiL@i5.sytse.net> References: <4665751.nuFhqYhmiL@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <20130504190003.GA18006@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, May 04, 2013 at 02:49:18PM +0200, Sytse van Slooten wrote: >Strangely, if I google that, it comes up with a reference to Ersatz-11 from >1994 which appears to describe exactly the same behaviour - only then on RL, >apparently. See >ftp://minnie.tuhs.org/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Ersatz-1.1beta/Old/e11beta.txt If I remember right, the problem was that I had transferred an 11M+ disk using RT-11, which interpreted the first few locs of the home block as a bad block replacement table, and scrambled the disk slightly. So that messed up the home block, and RSX fell back on the official rule of looking for a valid home block every 256 blocks. Or something. So my (possibly optimistic) recollection is that the bug turned out not to be in E11 itself, but in how I copied the disk using a real PDP-11 (which is unlikely to be what's biting you). Anyway so my guess is that RSX rejects a home block if it *either* gets a read error from the controller, *or* finds something wrong with the data in software (I forget whether there's a checksum, but anyway there's a signature and a bunch of other things that could fail a range check). Finding the code that does that and stepping through it (or at least doing breakpoints on both SW-emulated and HW-emulated machines and seeing if they both get to the same places) could be illuminating. I'm sure you've got things well in hand with simh but if I can help at all using E11 I'd be happy to. Tracing out annoying stuff like this and catching it in the act is basically my whole life at this point! I've added LOG /PC for the next release so pinpointing the PDP-11 code that sends a command to a peripheral (and then dislikes the results) is stupidly easy. John Wilson D Bit From keithvz at verizon.net Sat May 4 14:43:04 2013 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 15:43:04 -0400 Subject: Speaking of FPGAs... In-Reply-To: References: <518418D0.8030705@hachti.de> <2793AC42-8E37-4914-8EE6-1FD9EE916B21@gmail.com> <5BD2A516-C276-4204-B78B-6F4FACC13CA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <518564C8.8020705@verizon.net> On 5/4/2013 9:37 AM, geneb wrote: > Yes, it was a joke. --> > http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/OWD/OWD15005_500.jpeg > > (Well _I_ thought it was funny....) > > :) Hahaha. Keith From dave13 at dunfield.com Sat May 4 15:47:38 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 15:47:38 -0500 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available Message-ID: <518565DA.21626.8674E@dave13.dunfield.com> >> The collection can be seen at: www.classiccmp.org/dunfield >> >> [Keep trying if it says "service unavailable" - the classiccmp >> server seems to be having problems lately] >> >Most of the picture links appear broken. :( The links are not broken. The classiccmp server is broken. The photos don't work because you browser cannot access them - try enough times and you will usually see them (or go nuts trying). It's not just my site - the entire classiccmp server is having problems and has been for quite some time. Most of you don't see it because you access cctalk/tech via email, which gets done "in good old time", however I am not actively subscribed to the list any more (too mucn traffic), so I read the list via the web archives - depending on the time of day and phase of the moon, this can be damn near impossible. Many days I just give up. Makes the site pretty useless I agree - If anyone can provide a better host for the site I'm very interested, but for now I just don't have another place to put that much material - the alternative is probably going to be just taking it down as it really hasn't worked properly in weeks. Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From ba600 at ncf.ca Sat May 4 14:49:27 2013 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 15:49:27 -0400 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: References: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <3437485.tjPXxlKxV6@linux-zlo2> On Saturday, May 04, 2013 06:54:19 AM geneb wrote: > On Sat, 4 May 2013, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > For various reasons I am looking to downsize my classic > > computer collection over the next few years. > > I've been having the same thoughts for my collection also in Ottawa. Too bad we couldn't find a new collectorin the area with a big basement and deep pockets. I was looking on E-Bay the other day to find a price range for my VAX II and stubled upon another fom Ottawa who sold a packard Bell monitor for $99. These are the same ones I asked about a few months ago and was about to scrap. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From dave13 at dunfield.com Sat May 4 16:17:18 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 16:17:18 -0500 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available Message-ID: <51856CCE.8921.239272@dave13.dunfield.com> WOW - a lot of response in just 1/2 day! Just a few notes to clear up a few things: I am NOT "giving away" the collection - I will no doubt give away some parts of it, but I know local (to me) collectors who will take those bits, so please only ask for freebies if you are very close to Ottawa, Ontario. It also doesn't do much good to ask me "how much do you want for xxx" as I really don't know, as I have never made a point of placing values on the items in the collection - better to let me know what it is worth to you. Ultimately any particular item will go to whomever places the highest offer, or in some cases places where I know the particular bit of equipment will do the most good or have beneficial effect. At present I am planning to keep at least one of the Altairs, the Imsai, the Vector, the Horizon, the H8. one of the "chicklet" Pet 2001s the VLC VAX, the D6809 (or course) and a probably couple of others I have not decided on ***. *** I'll willing to entertain offers on these systems, but don't expect them to be cheap - I'm just as happy to hang on to them. I'm not keen to ship - I know this lets out many (most) of you, but preference will definately be given to people who can arrange pickup or take care of most of the shipping hassles remotely. In particular, I can't easily tell you what shipping will cost - most of this stuff is heavy, and it is a lot of work to pack something, measure it, weigh it and get a quote - which will likely be too high (as you all know, much of this stuff isn't worth the cost to ship). I'm happy to work with you to figure out ways to get things to you - perhaps piggybacking transport on someone already planning to come here etc.. (You might be able to coordinate such things through the list as well). Thanks, Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From jws at jwsss.com Sat May 4 15:25:03 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 13:25:03 -0700 Subject: Multicians wonder what terminal this might be In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998DA1999@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5181C68A.4090907@jwsss.com> <5182C273.904@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51856E9F.9080406@jwsss.com> On 5/2/2013 5:53 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > I think the one you have that is "squarish" on the right of the photos on >> that page is the style that Honeywell used for airline uses, and is hard to >> tell at a glance from one made by Univac. I had a Univac which looked >> almost identical to that one with an 8080. >> > I also think it is an early airline terminal. Some of them had a non > standard connectors. A photo of the connector would also be valuable. > > Pax > Here is an update with more of the story. Looks like it will be a mystery till more info pops out. I recall the Ford saga as well, considered going there at one point, but they didn't really have any openings when I was looking. This is talking about the photo I posted. I'm adding the link below so this story stands on its own. http://imgur.com/a/6FnnP Peter, It is one of the first CRT terminals that was connected to Multics. When we progressed from tty's (teletypes) to real terminals, I had to 'beg' to have one on my desk at the office so that I could communicate to my customers at Ford Motor Company. The ability to send messages and communicate electronically was phenomenal and I could be so much more productive. Having a terminal at home was.....way out of the question. (It took a year to get a terminal approved.) I had the good fortune to be the Honeywell Account Exec on the Ford Computer Sciences Department installation from 1970 thru 1983-1984. Ford wanted Multics very badly. Honeywell simply would not deliver. (They had wanted it since it first surfaced in the late '60's). I could share many stories of the struggle to keep Multics alive and the enthusiasm that Ford had for the product; and, the deception and outright lies that emanated from the highest levels of Honeywell management. If you have time for a bottle of wine one afternoon, I'd be happy to relate them. Best regards, Bernard Licata Former: Honeywell Account Exec for Ford Motor From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 4 16:17:20 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 15:17:20 -0600 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: <3437485.tjPXxlKxV6@linux-zlo2> References: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> <3437485.tjPXxlKxV6@linux-zlo2> Message-ID: <51857AE0.1030703@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/4/2013 1:49 PM, Mike wrote: > > I've been having the same thoughts for my collection also in Ottawa. Too bad > we couldn't find a new collectorin the area with a big basement and deep > pockets. > I got a small apartment and small pockets. They also don't ship here, but at least I am in Canada. > I was looking on E-Bay the other day to find a price range for my VAX II and > stubled upon another fom Ottawa who sold a packard Bell monitor for $99. > These are the same ones I asked about a few months ago and was about to scrap. Ben, From Cold Lake Alberta. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat May 4 17:20:25 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 15:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: <3437485.tjPXxlKxV6@linux-zlo2> References: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> <3437485.tjPXxlKxV6@linux-zlo2> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 May 2013, Mike wrote: > On Saturday, May 04, 2013 06:54:19 AM geneb wrote: >> On Sat, 4 May 2013, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> For various reasons I am looking to downsize my classic >>> computer collection over the next few years. >>> > > I've been having the same thoughts for my collection also in Ottawa. Too bad > we couldn't find a new collectorin the area with a big basement and deep > pockets. > > I was looking on E-Bay the other day to find a price range for my VAX II and > stubled upon another fom Ottawa who sold a packard Bell monitor for $99. > These are the same ones I asked about a few months ago and was about to scrap. > Just in case someone has one, I'm still trying to locate a complete Royal AlphaTronic system. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat May 4 17:48:20 2013 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 17:48:20 -0500 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: Heck Dave, I hope everything is ok. Can I have an IMSAI and a ADM3? Do you have dazzler or merlin graphics card? I can probably go 2-3K before I must ask a 'higher authority' Randy Dawson rdawson at ieee.org PS you got me going way back when, '82 I bought your tools to do a z-80 based process control terminal > From: dave13 at dunfield.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 09:29:48 -0500 > Subject: Downsizing - many systems available > > For various reasons I am looking to downsize my classic > computer collection over the next few years. > > The collection can be seen at: www.classiccmp.org/dunfield > > [Keep trying if it says "service unavailable" - the classiccmp > server seems to be having problems lately] > > Most of the system depicted are available. A few I will > keep, a few are already placed, and a few are "on loan" > and will be returned to their owners, but most of the > systems shown are available (as well as a few which have > not been processed yet). > > If you are interested in one or more systems from my site, > please contact me off-list and let me know specifically > what you are interested in. > > All of the equipment is located near Ottawa, Ontario Canada. > > If anyone is interested in the entire collection, let me know > and perhaps we can work something out. If there is serious > interest in the whole collection, I can make a detailed > inventory of exactly what would be available. > > Dave > -- > dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com > (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield > From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sat May 4 16:18:18 2013 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 23:18:18 +0200 Subject: ios IBM 5170 hard disk with 47 user Message-ID: <000901ce490c$e5eddf90$b1c99eb0$@lazzerini@email.it> I'm trying to install a hard drive IBM H3256-A3 (manual here http://www.hgst.com/tech/techlib.nsf...e/oem3fspe.pdf ) in an IBM AT 286. I state that the motherboard 286 type 1 with a controller AB-862G SUPER MULTI I/O CARD and a pair of drive performs the correct boot of the dos 4.0 (with no hard disk connected and configured), and that the alone hard drive works and has been perfectly formatted in dos way on another P3 machine. I replaced the original U27 and U47 with the bios BIOS_5170_30APR89_AMI_D286-1277-043089-K0 (downloaded the AMI BIOS FOR 5170 at the bottom of this page http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/bios/bios.htm) to have the option 47 user disk. Following the instructions given in the manual of the hard disk IBM H3256-A3 fields to be filled in bios are: cyl = 872, heads = 16, Wpcom = 65535, Lzone = 0, sect / trk = 36, obtaining a total capacity of 245.205 MB (=872x16x36x512/1048576). After turning on the machine, however, it stops and it does not proceed either boot from a floppy or even the keyboard responds any more. Instead without hard drive connected and / or configured the machine works perfectly. Thanks for any useful suggestion. Enrico From sytse at sytse.net Sat May 4 18:29:29 2013 From: sytse at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 01:29:29 +0200 Subject: RSX-11Mplus boot SAV -- Cannot find Home Block on fpga pdp2011 In-Reply-To: <20130504190003.GA18006@dbit.dbit.com> References: <4665751.nuFhqYhmiL@i5.sytse.net> <20130504190003.GA18006@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <1713948.eZjFesDUJ6@i5.sytse.net> On Saturday, May 04, 2013 15:00:03 John Wilson wrote: > On Sat, May 04, 2013 at 02:49:18PM +0200, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > >Strangely, if I google that, it comes up with a reference to Ersatz-11 from > >1994 which appears to describe exactly the same behaviour - only then on > >RL, apparently. See > >ftp://minnie.tuhs.org/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Ersatz-1.1beta/Old/e11beta.txt > > If I remember right, the problem was that I had transferred an 11M+ disk > using RT-11, which interpreted the first few locs of the home block as a > bad block replacement table, and scrambled the disk slightly. So that > messed up the home block, and RSX fell back on the official rule of looking > for a valid home block every 256 blocks. Or something. So my (possibly > optimistic) recollection is that the bug turned out not to be in E11 > itself, but in how I copied the disk using a real PDP-11 (which is unlikely > to be what's biting you). I've verified that the image I'm using is still correct - I've copied what is on the sdcard back to simh. It is bit for bit the same as what I started out with. And simh still works perfectly from it - so, that would seem to indicate that the disk image is not the problem. > > Anyway so my guess is that RSX rejects a home block if it *either* gets a > read error from the controller, *or* finds something wrong with the data in > software (I forget whether there's a checksum, but anyway there's a > signature and a bunch of other things that could fail a range check). > Finding the code that does that and stepping through it (or at least doing > breakpoints on both SW-emulated and HW-emulated machines and seeing if they > both get to the same places) could be illuminating. > > I'm sure you've got things well in hand with simh but if I can help at all > using E11 I'd be happy to. Tracing out annoying stuff like this and > catching it in the act is basically my whole life at this point! I've > added LOG /PC for the next release so pinpointing the PDP-11 code that > sends a command to a peripheral (and then dislikes the results) is stupidly > easy. What I did so far is make simh print out all commands it starts on the rh, and all accesses it does to the rp registers. No surprise that that appears to be radically different from what I see on the fpga - which is, btw, just peering at a number of 7-segment digits showing some of the RP registers. The next step will have to be instrumenting the RP core such that I can have my logic analyzer capture the commands and register access to it - then we can compare the results from e11 or simh with the fpga. Adding that kind of instrumentation is a lot of work though - I was hoping to avoid it. But unless I get a new insight, it's going to be the only way. > > John Wilson > D Bit Thanks for the help so far! From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 4 19:38:07 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 17:38:07 -0700 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: <518565DA.21626.8674E@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <518565DA.21626.8674E@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <5185A9EF.4040907@bitsavers.org> On 5/4/13 1:47 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > The classiccmp server is broken. Or something is doing horrible things to throttle bandwidth at his new provider. I've seen stalls for a minute on ftp wgets (which is how I sync bitsavers), lots of random 503's on web accesses, and random POP login failures. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat May 4 21:04:38 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 22:04:38 -0400 Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity Message-ID: <0315AF5D-BB77-464C-9BD6-FE312DDCE21A@gmail.com> The long saga of making my recent KA655 acquisition work continues! It's been mostly smooth sailing since I got a decent Plextor drive, but there's one persistent problem. Under VMS 7.3, after a longish period of inactivity (I've seen it after a few hours, but I've not been able to narrow it down beyond that), it seems to just kind of go out to lunch. VMS is still *running*... if I have a Telnet session running MONITOR, the clock will still update and the activity meters still move (a little; they show very little activity, but that's expected since there's not a lot going on on the machine yet). But if I terminate MONITOR (it responds interactively to ctrl-C, etc) and try to run anything else (say, HELP), it stops responding. Other terminals are totally unresponsive. If I try to open a Telnet session, TCP connects but no other traffic happens. This also happens if I turn TCP/IP off. I'm running with 16 MB RAM, which should be enough for a machine that's not really running much yet, and if I were having memory issues I would expect things like existing MONITOR sessions to have serious problems. The only other correlation I can think of is that this seems to happen most when I've just installed a layered product, so it could have something to do with the CD still being mounted. On the other hand, I tend to leave the machine alone and unattended for long periods of time for product installs, so correlation is necessarily not very trustworthy here. I can still issue a break from the terminal and boot again from the console firmware, so that still seems fine. If anyone has any idea what might be going on here, I'm all ears. - Dave From wilson at dbit.com Sat May 4 21:42:20 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 22:42:20 -0400 Subject: RSX-11Mplus boot SAV -- Cannot find Home Block on fpga pdp2011 In-Reply-To: <1713948.eZjFesDUJ6@i5.sytse.net> References: <4665751.nuFhqYhmiL@i5.sytse.net> <20130504190003.GA18006@dbit.dbit.com> <1713948.eZjFesDUJ6@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <20130505024220.GA22349@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, May 05, 2013 at 01:29:29AM +0200, Sytse van Slooten wrote: >The next step will have to be instrumenting the RP core such that I can have >my logic analyzer capture the commands and register access to it - then we can >compare the results from e11 or simh with the fpga. Adding that kind of >instrumentation is a lot of work though - I was hoping to avoid it. But unless >I get a new insight, it's going to be the only way. Maybe breakpoints would make this easier? I.e. trace out the code so there are a few places where you know it's happy so far, and see if you're hitting them. I would assume that it wouldn't be too difficult to compile a hacked version of the FPGA code with a temporarily hard-coded PC value that it checks for on each fetch and halts or asserts a GPIO or otherwise lets you know. Then you keep doing that until you find a place where the SW and HW emulations disagree. Tedious but still maybe still easier than extending the RH/DCL code to dump its guts all the time? John Wilson D Bit From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat May 4 21:48:56 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 22:48:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: <3437485.tjPXxlKxV6@linux-zlo2> References: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> <3437485.tjPXxlKxV6@linux-zlo2> Message-ID: <201305050248.WAA26557@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> For various reasons I am looking to downsize my classic computer >>> collection over the next few years. > I've been having the same thoughts for my collection also in Ottawa. > Too bad we couldn't find a new collectorin the area with a big > basement and deep pockets. Well, I'm moving from Montreal to Ottawa - on Friday a potential buyer and I came to an agreement negotiating on an offer to buy my condo. It still may fall through, but I'm hopeful, and if it doesn't then I'll be in Ottawa in a decently sized place within a few months. Of course, that's not to say I'll also have pockets any deeper than they are now, nor that I'll have all that much more space than now, but I may be able to rescue some fraction of the stuff. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 4 22:06:32 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 21:06:32 -0600 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: <201305050248.WAA26557@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> <3437485.tjPXxlKxV6@linux-zlo2> <201305050248.WAA26557@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5185CCB8.5000109@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/4/2013 8:48 PM, Mouse wrote: > Well, I'm moving from Montreal to Ottawa - on Friday a potential buyer > and I came to an agreement negotiating on an offer to buy my condo. It > still may fall through, but I'm hopeful, and if it doesn't then I'll be > in Ottawa in a decently sized place within a few months. I have a brother in Ottawa, so might be able to take something off your hands. > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Ben. From radioengr at gmail.com Sat May 4 23:31:34 2013 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 21:31:34 -0700 Subject: RSX-11Mplus boot SAV -- Cannot find Home Block on fpga pdp2011 In-Reply-To: <1713948.eZjFesDUJ6@i5.sytse.net> References: <4665751.nuFhqYhmiL@i5.sytse.net> <20130504190003.GA18006@dbit.dbit.com> <1713948.eZjFesDUJ6@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <5185E0A6.20002@gmail.com> On 5/4/2013 4:29 PM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: >> I'm sure you've got things well in hand with simh but if I can help at all >> using E11 I'd be happy to. Tracing out annoying stuff like this and >> catching it in the act is basically my whole life at this point! I've >> added LOG /PC for the next release so pinpointing the PDP-11 code that >> sends a command to a peripheral (and then dislikes the results) is stupidly >> easy. > What I did so far is make simh print out all commands it starts on the rh, and > all accesses it does to the rp registers. No surprise that that appears to be > radically different from what I see on the fpga - which is, btw, just peering > at a number of 7-segment digits showing some of the RP registers. > > The next step will have to be instrumenting the RP core such that I can have > my logic analyzer capture the commands and register access to it - then we can > compare the results from e11 or simh with the fpga. Adding that kind of > instrumentation is a lot of work though - I was hoping to avoid it. But unless > I get a new insight, it's going to be the only way. Why not debug it in your HDL simulator? I would think that it would be much easier to instrument a testbench than instrument the hardware. I can boot OS/8 and execute commands on my PDP8 FPGA running on a HDL simulator. It wasn't that hard to build a simulation testbench with a UART and a SD Card. I instrumented SIMH and the FPGA HDL identically so I could just do a file comparison (diff) when debugging the RK8E disk controller. ...just a suggestion. Rob. From joerg.sigle at jsigle.com Sat May 4 19:56:15 2013 From: joerg.sigle at jsigle.com (Joerg M. Sigle) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 02:56:15 +0200 Subject: Airplane cockpit instruments, DEC PDP peripherals and other old computers on ebay, near Munich In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5185AE2F.2070307@jsigle.com> Hey guys. Here are some DEC drives, among other things. Obviously someone who selected interesting hardware and stored it rather carefully. I was considering the Apollo or even the Technostar, but it would be an effort for me just to get there. If anybody is closer or very interested, tell me, so I may not bid. The seller (acting on behalf of owner) wrote he gave the PDPs "in good hands :-)" (his own?), but his prices are not so low, and he says he is considering 350 EUR for 8 apollos with only one Monitor, two keyboads, mice, unknown condition, long storage... Just wanted to point you to the auctions, just in case. ebay auctions: 251267118551 251270611957 251268195362 251270185222 PDP RL02, some RL06 and 07 have apparently already ended. etc. pp. (Please look for other auctions of this seller, included completed ones.) I think it would definitely be very sad to let these machines go to scrap - would anybody second that? :-) Kind regards, Joerg From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun May 5 01:17:33 2013 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 01:17:33 -0500 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: <5185CCB8.5000109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51850D4C.8003.E0C40A@dave13.dunfield.com> <3437485.tjPXxlKxV6@linux-zlo2> <201305050248.WAA26557@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5185CCB8.5000109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I'm also having an issue figuring out what is and is not available - so I'll just toss this out: I could use one of the external drives for the Tandy EX-1000 (XT?) Compatible machine. Could also use an external floppy for the TRS-80 Mdl. 100/102 machines, and anything to do with the Epson HX / QX / PX machines - that you might or might not have! =) Thanks much, let me know if any of this lands in a useful area.. ;-) On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 10:06 PM, ben wrote: > On 5/4/2013 8:48 PM, Mouse wrote: > > Well, I'm moving from Montreal to Ottawa - on Friday a potential buyer >> and I came to an agreement negotiating on an offer to buy my condo. It >> still may fall through, but I'm hopeful, and if it doesn't then I'll be >> in Ottawa in a decently sized place within a few months. >> > > I have a brother in Ottawa, so might be able to take something off your > hands. > > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse >> \ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B >> >> Ben. > > > > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 5 05:14:20 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 11:14:20 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity Message-ID: <01OTA9NOUJ9U006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> > > The long saga of making my recent KA655 acquisition work > continues! It's been mostly smooth sailing since I got > a decent Plextor drive, but there's one persistent problem. > Under VMS 7.3, after a longish period of inactivity (I've > seen it after a few hours, but I've not been able to > narrow it down beyond that), it seems to just kind of go > out to lunch. VMS is still *running*... if I have a > Telnet session running MONITOR, the clock will still update > and the activity meters still move (a little; they show > very little activity, but that's expected since there's not > a lot going on on the machine yet). But if I terminate > MONITOR (it responds interactively to ctrl-C, etc) and try > to run anything else (say, HELP), it stops responding. > Other terminals are totally unresponsive. If I try to > open a Telnet session, TCP connects but no other traffic > happens. > > This also happens if I turn TCP/IP off. I'm running with > 16 MB RAM, which should be enough for a machine that's not > really running much yet, and if I were having memory issues > I would expect things like existing MONITOR sessions to > have serious problems. > > The only other correlation I can think of is that this > seems to happen most when I've just installed a layered > product, so it could have something to do with the CD > still being mounted. On the other hand, I tend to leave > the machine alone and unattended for long periods of time > for product installs, so correlation is necessarily not > very trustworthy here. > > I can still issue a break from the terminal and boot again > from the console firmware, so that still seems fine. > > If anyone has any idea what might be going on here, I'm > all ears. > Do either of: $ REPLY /ENABLE $ SHOW ERROR show up any problems? You might need: $ SET TERMINAL /BROADCAST and/or $ SET BROADCAST=ALL with REPLY /ENABLE if you are doing this on the console and something has disabled broadcasts on the console. In older versions of VMS, $ ANALYZE /ERROR used to be very useful for spotting behind-the-scenes hardware problems and worked straight out of the box but it was replaced in later versions (on Alpha at least - I'm not sure about VAX) by $ DIAGNOSE /TRANSLATE which required extra software to be installed and possibly licensed first. I lost track of what happened after that but I think that was replaced again by something else equally difficult to make use of :-( Your disk could be going to sleep but it seems unlikely that it would recover by just halting and rebooting the system. With VAX/VMS, having lots of physical memory is neither necessary nor sufficient. More important is how the virtual memory system is configured. Perhaps you are low on pagefile space or non-paged pool or something like that? Use $ SHOW MEMORY /FILES to check how much free pagefile space you have. $ SHOW MEMORY /POOL /FULL will give a vast number of figures. If "Free space" is low and "Current size" is much bigger than "Initial size" and approaching "Maximum size", you may be running into problems with non-paged pool. If there are no hardware problems, an AUTOGEN might well help. For best results, it should be done after whatever activity that might have used up resources but it's obviously no good if the machine stops responding in the middle of the AUTOGEN procedure. Tell AUTOGEN to save feedback and use it when calculating new system parameters. It will complain that the machine wasn't up for 24 hours but tell it to do it anyway. $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN HELP for further details. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun May 5 06:55:37 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 07:55:37 -0400 Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity In-Reply-To: <01OTA9NOUJ9U006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OTA9NOUJ9U006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <0FE9BFFB-868B-438D-A0B3-F4478E17B286@gmail.com> On May 5, 2013, at 6:14 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > Do either of: > > $ REPLY /ENABLE > $ SHOW ERROR > > show up any problems? You might need: > > $ SET TERMINAL /BROADCAST > > and/or > > $ SET BROADCAST=ALL > > with REPLY /ENABLE if you are doing this on the console and something has > disabled broadcasts on the console. Any of these would probably be great, but I should probably be a little more clear; it's not really responding at all to input after I respond to a prompt. After the carriage return, it just sits there and doesn't even echo anything, though as I mentioned, anything running elsewhere (like MONITOR) still seems to keep going. > In older versions of VMS, > > $ ANALYZE /ERROR > > used to be very useful for spotting behind-the-scenes hardware problems and > worked straight out of the box but it was replaced in later versions (on Alpha > at least - I'm not sure about VAX) by > > $ DIAGNOSE /TRANSLATE > > which required extra software to be installed and possibly licensed first. > I lost track of what happened after that but I think that was replaced > again by something else equally difficult to make use of :-( I'll check on that, though with the above caveat. > Your disk could be going to sleep but it seems unlikely that it would > recover by just halting and rebooting the system. Well, it's not impossible... it's a CMD CQD-220 SCSI card, and under some circumstances (possibly including booting), it issues a bus reset which generally puts things in a consistent state. > With VAX/VMS, having lots of physical memory is neither necessary nor > sufficient. More important is how the virtual memory system is configured. > Perhaps you are low on pagefile space or non-paged pool or something like > that? That is altogether likely. I'm still working to understand the concept of pool, since I haven't gotten that far in the RSX-11M or VMS manuals yet. > Use > > $ SHOW MEMORY /FILES > > to check how much free pagefile space you have. > > $ SHOW MEMORY /POOL /FULL > > will give a vast number of figures. If "Free space" is low and "Current size" > is much bigger than "Initial size" and approaching "Maximum size", you may be > running into problems with non-paged pool. The free space numbers seem fine and always have, but I haven't run it while doing something like an install. I'll have to try that. The pool space numbers don't seem terribly large, but I'm not quite sure what nominal ones are. > If there are no hardware problems, an AUTOGEN might well help. For best > results, it should be done after whatever activity that might have used up > resources but it's obviously no good if the machine stops responding in the > middle of the AUTOGEN procedure. Tell AUTOGEN to save feedback and use it > when calculating new system parameters. It will complain that the machine > wasn't up for 24 hours but tell it to do it anyway. I was considering that. I'll give it a shot. Thanks! - Dave From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun May 5 08:48:28 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 09:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: <51856CCE.8921.239272@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <51856CCE.8921.239272@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 May 2013, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I'm happy to work with you to figure out ways to get things to you - perhaps > piggybacking transport on someone already planning to come here etc.. > (You might be able to coordinate such things through the list as well). On that note, is there anyone in upstate NY or NE planning to make the journey to Ottawa? Or better yet, anyone in Ottawa area willing to pickup items from Dave and drop tham at a pack and ship (Canada Post, not UPS)? Steve -- From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun May 5 09:52:37 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 10:52:37 -0400 Subject: Available S-100 PCBs Message-ID: <003301ce49a0$3c270bf0$b47523d0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! Here is an update on available S-100 board PCBs! I've sent out many of the PCBs and they are almost gone. There are 21 of the S-100 IDE V2 reorder PCBs and 2 of the new S-100 bus terminator/prototyping board PCBs. There are 2 of the S-100 LAVA PCBs available. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/IDE%20Board/My%20IDE%20Card.htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20bus%20t erminator http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm The S-100 PCBs cost the same as before ($20 each).? However due to unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to change shipping costs. Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional PCB.? Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each additional PCB.? This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with no tracking or insurance.? The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per usual arrangement. I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my hands.? The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on shipping.? It affects us all and is most unfortunate.? These boards are provided "at cost" so there is no margin to absorb any shipping price increases.? I have to pass them along. If you would like one or more S-100 PCBs please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun May 5 10:08:54 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 11:08:54 -0400 Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity In-Reply-To: <01OTA9NOUJ9U006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OTA9NOUJ9U006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On May 5, 2013, at 6:14 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > With VAX/VMS, having lots of physical memory is neither necessary nor > sufficient. More important is how the virtual memory system is configured. > Perhaps you are low on pagefile space or non-paged pool or something like > that? I was musing on this while reviewing the install manual and it does mention that at least 24 MB physical memory is necessary for TCP/IP 5.1. I don't know how hard and fast that is, but it's possible that the changes I made to the pool allocation per the manual have destabilized the system. Since I don't have much running on there, I've reinstalled from scratch to see if I have the same problem with no TCP/IP installed/running. - Dave From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 5 12:05:45 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 18:05:45 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity Message-ID: <01OTAOVSRC2A006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> > > Do either of: > > > > $ REPLY /ENABLE > > $ SHOW ERROR > > > > show up any problems? You might need: > > > > $ SET TERMINAL /BROADCAST > > > > and/or > > > > $ SET BROADCAST=ALL > > > > with REPLY /ENABLE if you are doing this on the console and something has > > disabled broadcasts on the console. > > Any of these would probably be great, but I should probably be a little > more clear; it's not really responding at all to input after I respond > to a prompt. After the carriage return, it just sits there and doesn't > even echo anything, though as I mentioned, anything running elsewhere > (like MONITOR) still seems to keep going. > It's me who should have been clearer. Do the REPLY /ENABLE and friends before the problem shows up in the hope of seeing a message giving details about the problem when it does show up. You might see something like "Mount verification is in progress." for example. Do the SHOW ERROR anytime and if anything (other than a tape drive, terminal or any sort of virtual device) shows a non-zero error count, investigate the reason for it. Particularly watch for MEMORY or CPU errors. If your disk device starts clocking errors just before the system stalls, that would tend to point the finger in its direction. $ SHOW SYSTEM is the one command I know of that will usually execute when almost all others fail due to resource starvation. Using it to look at what states processes are in will give clues about what resources they might be waiting for. > > $ SHOW MEMORY /POOL /FULL > > > > will give a vast number of figures. If "Free space" is low and "Current size" > > is much bigger than "Initial size" and approaching "Maximum size", you may be > > running into problems with non-paged pool. > > The free space numbers seem fine and always have, but I haven't run > it while doing something like an install. I'll have to try that. > The pool space numbers don't seem terribly large, but I'm not quite > sure what nominal ones are. The numbers will vary depending on your hardware and configuration. What matters is that that "Free space" is not approaching zero when "Current size" is already as big as "Maximum size" which means there is no scope for further automatic expansion of the pool size. If you have plenty of free space, you are ok. If you don't have any free space but "Current size" is less than "Maximum size", you are still ok. Another approach to this sort of thing is to crash the system when it becomes unresponsive and analyse the resultant crash dump afterwards. Probably better to try the AUTOGEN first though. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun May 5 12:45:24 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 12:45:24 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 117, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51869AB4.7090702@pico-systems.com> Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 22:04:38 -0400 From: David Riley To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity Message-ID: <0315AF5D-BB77-464C-9BD6-FE312DDCE21A at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The long saga of making my recent KA655 acquisition work continues! It's been mostly smooth sailing since I got a decent Plextor drive, but there's one persistent problem. Under VMS 7.3, after a longish period of inactivity (I've seen it after a few hours, but I've not been able to narrow it down beyond that), it seems to just kind of go out to lunch. VMS is still *running*... if I have a Telnet session running MONITOR, the clock will still update and the activity meters still move (a little; they show very little activity, but that's expected since there's not a lot going on on the machine yet). But if I terminate MONITOR (it responds interactively to ctrl-C, etc) and try to run anything else (say, HELP), it stops responding. Other terminals are totally unresponsive. If I try to open a Telnet session, TCP connects but no other traffic happens. This also happens if I turn TCP/IP off. I'm running with 16 MB RAM, which should be enough for a machine that's not really running much yet, and if I were having memory issues I would expect things like existing MONITOR sessions to have serious problems. If anyone has any idea what might be going on here, I'm all ears. I have seen this behavior a number of times when the disk has gone offline for some reason. I'm not sure there is a simple way to tell when the drive can no longer be accessed. Obviously, there will be no error logging of the condition, except that VMS may write some buffered error messages on the next boot that may offer a clue. Jon From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 5 12:46:21 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 18:46:21 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity Message-ID: <01OTAPPEXKSY007X0M@beyondthepale.ie> > > With VAX/VMS, having lots of physical memory is neither necessary nor > > sufficient. More important is how the virtual memory system is configured. > > Perhaps you are low on pagefile space or non-paged pool or something like > > that? > > I was musing on this while reviewing the install manual and it does > mention that at least 24 MB physical memory is necessary for TCP/IP > 5.1. I don't know how hard and fast that is, but it's possible that > the changes I made to the pool allocation per the manual have > destabilized the system. Since I don't have much running on there, > I've reinstalled from scratch to see if I have the same problem with > no TCP/IP installed/running. > I would worry more about DECWindows needing large amounts of memory rather than TCP/IP but having said that, I've always used Multinet rather than TCP/IP services so I don't know a lot about it. I suspect the manual is saying that a typical workload on a more capable VAX than an MVII would need 24 MB for good performance. I think you should be able to get by with rather less memory than that, particularly if you don't have a graphics card. It should not be necessary to reinstall to see the effect of not running TCP/IP services. Just comment out the command to start it (probably in sys$manager:systartup_vms.com) and reboot. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun May 5 12:59:36 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 12:59:36 -0500 Subject: Older IBM RS/6000 RAM available Message-ID: <51869E08.6030703@brutman.com> I thought I was going to acquire an RS/6000 so I started buying spare parts. Plans changed ... Let me know if you need P/N 68X6356 (FRU 70F9976) which are 8MB SIMMs or P/N 32G8212 which are 16MB SIMMs. These came in a 'Bag O' Memory' so they are untested, but they were properly stored. They are not free - shipping cost and beer money will do fine though. Mike From tlindner at macmess.org Sun May 5 13:33:21 2013 From: tlindner at macmess.org (tim lindner) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 11:33:21 -0700 Subject: I have these ideas about how to document file formats Message-ID: For about seven years I have been writing code to document file formats. The first time I wrote something about it is here: http://tlindner.macmess.org/?p=56 <-- warning, a little rambling. Then a few years later I wrote a program called Blocks, here are some screen casts I made about it: http://tlindner.macmess.org/?page_id=311 Then a few years later I wrote Streams . I've been poking at it for a while. I've made two screen casts to show it off as well: http://www.macmess.org/downloads/StreamEditing.m4v <-- made about a year ago. http://www.macmess.org/downloads/Stream_Screen_Cast.mp4 <-- very recent. It's way past time to get some feed back. So for others who are interested in this sort of thing, what do you think? -- tim lindner From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun May 5 13:45:51 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 14:45:51 -0400 Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity In-Reply-To: <01OTAPPEXKSY007X0M@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OTAPPEXKSY007X0M@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <92222D6B-222C-4FA0-9264-A91A5FB49BE9@gmail.com> On May 5, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > I would worry more about DECWindows needing large amounts of memory rather > than TCP/IP but having said that, I've always used Multinet rather than TCP/IP > services so I don't know a lot about it. Perhaps. I'm not running DECWindows, though. > I suspect the manual is saying that a typical workload on a more capable VAX > than an MVII would need 24 MB for good performance. I think you should be able > to get by with rather less memory than that, particularly if you don't have a > graphics card. That was essentially my assumption as well, but I'm just not 100% sure if the pool adjustments I made to install it threw things out of whack for my system. This is a slight bit beefier than an MVII, but not by a lot. At some point in the near future, I'm acquiring a VAX4000, which has a bit more to it; this one is probably mostly going to be a curiosity or at most a file/DNS server. > It should not be necessary to reinstall to see the effect of not running TCP/IP > services. Just comment out the command to start it > (probably in sys$manager:systartup_vms.com) and reboot. That part was simple, but I have no clue as of yet how to back out the adjustments I made to the pool to run TCP/IP because I don't fully understand AUTOGEN yet. I'll get there eventually, but I need a stable system first and I can afford to throw the baby out with the bathwater at the moment. :-) It's all in the Essentials manual, but that's 500 pages, so it'll be a while before I'm done reading it. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun May 5 14:35:40 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 15:35:40 -0400 Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity In-Reply-To: <01OTAOVSRC2A006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OTAOVSRC2A006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <3D17512B-0DC4-4B4B-8574-DB84038BFC27@gmail.com> On May 5, 2013, at 1:05 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > Do the SHOW ERROR anytime and if anything (other than a tape drive, terminal > or any sort of virtual device) shows a non-zero error count, investigate the > reason for it. Particularly watch for MEMORY or CPU errors. If your disk > device starts clocking errors just before the system stalls, that would tend > to point the finger in its direction. Ah, OK. So I get some PUA0: errors ticking up every so often, most of which are right after the system has had some "hiccup" of non- interactivity for several minutes. Some initial research indicates that the PU device is the UDA controller, which is what I believe the CQD-220 masquerades as (more or less). Right now, after three hours of sitting basically idle, it's logged 26 errors. So I'll have to check that out. It could be something as simple as balky SCSI termination, since I do have 4 devices in the chain and the terminator is a Jaz drive using internal termination. I'll play with it some. Hopefully it's not the hard drive going bad, since my supply of SCSI drives is essentially dry. It's a bit worrisome that it's the PU device going bad rather than the DU device, but I'm not 100% sure how VMS logs the errors, so it could be what I suspect. - Dave From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 5 15:20:03 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 21:20:03 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity Message-ID: <01OTAVAEFRHU007X0M@beyondthepale.ie> > Ah, OK. So I get some PUA0: errors ticking up every so often, most > of which are right after the system has had some "hiccup" of non- > interactivity for several minutes. Some initial research indicates > that the PU device is the UDA controller, which is what I believe > the CQD-220 masquerades as (more or less). Right now, after three > hours of sitting basically idle, it's logged 26 errors. > > So I'll have to check that out. It could be something as simple as > balky SCSI termination, since I do have 4 devices in the chain and > the terminator is a Jaz drive using internal termination. I'll > play with it some. Hopefully it's not the hard drive going bad, > since my supply of SCSI drives is essentially dry. It's a bit > worrisome that it's the PU device going bad rather than the DU > device, but I'm not 100% sure how VMS logs the errors, so it could > be what I suspect. > VMS has a process called ERRFMT which logs errors in a binary file called sys$errorlog:errlog.sys - the way to get a detailed human readable report of the contents of that file used to be ANALYZE /ERROR but I don't think that works any more. Maybe someone else can chime in and suggest what the current way is. Keep an eye out also for operator messages relating to the PU and DU devices after doing a REPLY /ENABLE, SET TERMINAL, SET BROADCAST etc. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun May 5 15:35:47 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 16:35:47 -0400 Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity In-Reply-To: <01OTAVAEFRHU007X0M@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OTAVAEFRHU007X0M@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <19DA25F7-0A51-4269-AC1C-ABA52A106750@gmail.com> On May 5, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > VMS has a process called ERRFMT which logs errors in a binary file called > sys$errorlog:errlog.sys - the way to get a detailed human readable report of > the contents of that file used to be ANALYZE /ERROR but I don't think that > works any more. Maybe someone else can chime in and suggest what the current > way is. Nope, that DEFINITELY still works. Many, many screens full of error log printing. :-) I'll pore over those, then. > Keep an eye out also for operator messages relating to the PU and DU devices > after doing a REPLY /ENABLE, SET TERMINAL, SET BROADCAST etc. Should those not be enabled on the main console at boot? That's what I'm conversing with. Just for fun, I'll make double sure. - Dave From PETER at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 5 09:58:49 2013 From: PETER at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 15:58:49 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity Message-ID: <01OTAJJ5K1HE006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> > > Do either of: > > > > $ REPLY /ENABLE > > $ SHOW ERROR > > > > show up any problems? You might need: > > > > $ SET TERMINAL /BROADCAST > > > > and/or > > > > $ SET BROADCAST=ALL > > > > with REPLY /ENABLE if you are doing this on the console and something has > > disabled broadcasts on the console. > > Any of these would probably be great, but I should probably be a little > more clear; it's not really responding at all to input after I respond > to a prompt. After the carriage return, it just sits there and doesn't > even echo anything, though as I mentioned, anything running elsewhere > (like MONITOR) still seems to keep going. > It's me who should have been clearer. Do the REPLY /ENABLE and friends before the problem shows up in the hope of seeing a message giving details about the problem when it does show up. You might see something like "Mount verification is in progress." for example. Do the SHOW ERROR anytime and if anything (other than a tape drive, terminal or any sort of virtual device) shows a non-zero error count, investigate the reason for it. Particularly watch for MEMORY or CPU errors. If your disk device starts clocking errors just before the system stalls, that would tend to point the finger in its direction. $ SHOW SYSTEM is the one command I know of that will usually execute when almost all others fail for reasons of resource starvation. Using it to look at what states processes are in will give clues about what resources they might be waiting for. > > $ SHOW MEMORY /POOL /FULL > > > > will give a vast number of figures. If "Free space" is low and "Current size" > > is much bigger than "Initial size" and approaching "Maximum size", you may be > > running into problems with non-paged pool. > > The free space numbers seem fine and always have, but I haven't run > it while doing something like an install. I'll have to try that. > The pool space numbers don't seem terribly large, but I'm not quite > sure what nominal ones are. The numbers will vary depending on your hardware and configuration. What matters is that that "Free space" is not approaching zero when "Current size" is already as big as "Maximum size" which means there is no scope for further automatic expansion of the pool size. If you have plenty of free space, you are ok. If you don't have any free space but "Current size" is less than "Maximum size", you are still ok. Another approach to this sort of thing is to crash the system when it becomes unresponsive and analyse the resultant crash dump afterwards. Probably easier to try the AUTOGEN first though. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun May 5 16:01:40 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 16:01:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity In-Reply-To: <3D17512B-0DC4-4B4B-8574-DB84038BFC27@gmail.com> References: <01OTAOVSRC2A006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> <3D17512B-0DC4-4B4B-8574-DB84038BFC27@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 May 2013, David Riley wrote: > On May 5, 2013, at 1:05 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > >> Do the SHOW ERROR anytime and if anything (other than a tape drive, >> terminal or any sort of virtual device) shows a non-zero error count, >> investigate the reason for it. Particularly watch for MEMORY or CPU >> errors. If your disk device starts clocking errors just before the >> system stalls, that would tend to point the finger in its direction. > > Ah, OK. So I get some PUA0: errors ticking up every so often, most of > which are right after the system has had some "hiccup" of non- > interactivity for several minutes. Some initial research indicates that > the PU device is the UDA controller, which is what I believe the CQD-220 > masquerades as (more or less). Right now, after three hours of sitting > basically idle, it's logged 26 errors. > > So I'll have to check that out. It could be something as simple as > balky SCSI termination, since I do have 4 devices in the chain and the > terminator is a Jaz drive using internal termination. I'll play with it > some. Hopefully it's not the hard drive going bad, since my supply of > SCSI drives is essentially dry. It's a bit worrisome that it's the PU > device going bad rather than the DU device, but I'm not 100% sure how > VMS logs the errors, so it could be what I suspect. How long is the SCSI chain? The first thing that came to mind for me was the possibility of a SCSI bus issue since I've seen similar behavior with other systems. In fact, since you just mentioned the Jaz drive, it could very well be the culprit. I had major compatibility issues with Jaz drives in a non-PC application back when they were current products and I ended up having to connect them to a PC to update their firmware and change their internal settings. A quick Google search turned up this link too: http://www.linux-m68k.org/faq/howjaz.html From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 5 15:51:04 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 21:51:04 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity Message-ID: <01OTAVQSVYQW007X0M@beyondthepale.ie> > > > I suspect the manual is saying that a typical workload on a more capable VAX > > than an MVII would need 24 MB for good performance. I think you should be able > > to get by with rather less memory than that, particularly if you don't have a > > graphics card. > > That was essentially my assumption as well, but I'm just not 100% > sure if the pool adjustments I made to install it threw things > out of whack for my system. This is a slight bit beefier than an > MVII, but not by a lot. At some point in the near future, I'm > acquiring a VAX4000, which has a bit more to it; this one is > probably mostly going to be a curiosity or at most a file/DNS > server. > Apologies - I don't know where I picked up MVII from - I must have been reading something else and confused myself. I should have paid more attention to the subject line. > > > It should not be necessary to reinstall to see the effect of not running > > TCP/IP services. Just comment out the command to start it > > (probably in sys$manager:systartup_vms.com) and reboot. > > That part was simple, but I have no clue as of yet how to back out > the adjustments I made to the pool to run TCP/IP because I don't > fully understand AUTOGEN yet. I'll get there eventually, but I > need a stable system first and I can afford to throw the baby out > with the bathwater at the moment. :-) It's all in the Essentials > manual, but that's 500 pages, so it'll be a while before I'm done > reading it. > The purpose of AUTOGEN is to get your system parameters set to appropriate values for your workload and to make them consistent with each other and with the resources available on your system. Once you get your system stable, you don't need AUTOGEN any more :-) It's not necessary to back out previous changes - just tell AUTOGEN what parameters you need updated for software you have installed (by adding records to sys$system:modparam.dat as recommended in the appropriate installation manual) and then letting AUTOGEN sort it all out. If you have never run AUTOGEN, you might get a few surprises the first time you do but in the long run, I think it is better to make a habit of running it after any changes to the system. That way you have a better idea what to expect each time and there is less lightlyhood of big dramatic changes which might result when you have made many changes and put off doing an AUTOGEN for some time. Maybe it might be worth while trying it out in simh to get a feel for it? It's certainly possible to modify system parameters manually but I think it's better to build up experience by watching what AUTOGEN does before going down that road. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 5 16:14:27 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 14:14:27 -0700 Subject: DECWriter II Available - Portland, Ore Message-ID: I have a DECWriter II that needs a new home. It's located near Portland, local pickup only. I have no idea if it works or not, as I've never tried to power it on in the 15 or so years I've owned it. The plans I had for it have evaporated, and it takes up room I need. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 5 16:20:55 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 22:20:55 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity Message-ID: <01OTAXGE7TUA007X0M@beyondthepale.ie> > > > VMS has a process called ERRFMT which logs errors in a binary file called > > sys$errorlog:errlog.sys - the way to get a detailed human readable report of > > the contents of that file used to be ANALYZE /ERROR but I don't think that > > works any more. Maybe someone else can chime in and suggest what the current > > way is. > > Nope, that DEFINITELY still works. Many, many screens full of error > log printing. :-) I'll pore over those, then. > Good stuff. It must be only Alpha (and maybe Itanium?) it's messed up on then. You can rename sys$errorlog:errlog.sys to .old for example if you want to get rid of the accumulated errors and start afresh. ERRMFT will create a new errlog.sys the next time it has something to log. Alternatively, $ ANALYZE /ERROR /SINCE=time will only report on errors after the specified time (or date), or just plain: $ ANALYZE /ERROR /SINCE will report on errors logged today. > > > Keep an eye out also for operator messages relating to the PU and DU devices > > after doing a REPLY /ENABLE, SET TERMINAL, SET BROADCAST etc. > > Should those not be enabled on the main console at boot? That's > what I'm conversing with. Just for fun, I'll make double sure. > In principle, yes. However, exactly what happens varies depending on the VMS version and the type of hardware it is running on (workstation type machine versus server type machine) so it's best to confirm that something has not disabled operator messages when booting completed. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 5 18:32:28 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 18:32:28 -0500 Subject: ABQ area: Mainframe Manuals Message-ID: It doesn't say if they're free, for sale cheap or what but there is a goodly stack of IBM documentation available in the Albuquerque area: http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/bks/3766923247.html (not mine, not in the area) -j From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun May 5 23:40:18 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 16:40:18 +1200 Subject: Replacing the tube in a TRS-80 Model 4 Message-ID: Fun times with a TRS-80 Model 4 (such a nice looking machine!). http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-04-06-replacing-model4-screen.htm Terry (Tez) From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Mon May 6 05:57:54 2013 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Steve Merrony) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 11:57:54 +0100 Subject: Does Anyone Know of a Running DG MV/2500? Message-ID: <51878CB2.2030401@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Having got the PSU repaired in my recently acquired MV/2500 I now find (as expected) that the disks are u/s and I need the microcode etc. Does anyone know of a functioning example? Steve -- /Stephen Merrony Email: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk http://stephen.homedns.org/dg// From dave13 at dunfield.com Mon May 6 07:50:01 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 07:50:01 -0500 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available Message-ID: <518798E9.8368.5D274A@dave13.dunfield.com> >> The classiccmp server is broken. > >Or something is doing horrible things to throttle bandwidth at his new provider. >I've seen stalls for a minute on ftp wgets (which is how I sync bitsavers), >lots of random 503's on web accesses, and random POP login failures. When I access either my site or the mailing list, through the web I get: ------ Service Temporarily Unavailable The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later. Apache/2.2.23 (FreeBSD) PHP/5.3.18 with Suhosin-Patch mod_ssl/2.2.23 OpenSSL/0.9.8x DAV/2 Server at www.classiccmp.org Port 80 ------ This appears to be a 503 originating at this server. When I access my site, I see individual 503 errors on many (sometimes most) of the photo link accesses. I would guess that the wgets fails becase it get s a 503 error, probably not knowing what it means, only that the accessed failed - and retries until it gets through which is what is taking a minite - (I've sat hear reclicking links for nearly a minite trying to open a message in the archive). To me it looks like a server problem. Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon May 6 11:02:10 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 12:02:10 -0400 Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity In-Reply-To: References: <01OTAOVSRC2A006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> <3D17512B-0DC4-4B4B-8574-DB84038BFC27@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1E468196-13F2-4F07-BB39-425E15FED10C@gmail.com> On May 5, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> So I'll have to check that out. It could be something as simple as balky SCSI termination, since I do have 4 devices in the chain and the terminator is a Jaz drive using internal termination. I'll play with it some. Hopefully it's not the hard drive going bad, since my supply of SCSI drives is essentially dry. It's a bit worrisome that it's the PU device going bad rather than the DU device, but I'm not 100% sure how VMS logs the errors, so it could be what I suspect. > > How long is the SCSI chain? The first thing that came to mind for me was the possibility of a SCSI bus issue since I've seen similar behavior with other systems. In fact, since you just mentioned the Jaz drive, it could very well be the culprit. I had major compatibility issues with Jaz drives in a non-PC application back when they were current products and I ended up having to connect them to a PC to update their firmware and change their internal settings. A quick Google search turned up this link too: http://www.linux-m68k.org/faq/howjaz.html I'm familiar with the general problems with Jaz drives, but this particular one has never given me much trouble. Having workable disks around is a problem, though; they all seem to die over time, even disused (unlike Zip disks, which have always been fine for me). I got 10 off eBay and they all failed a long format, which I hope doesn't actually mean the drive in the Mac I was formatting them has gone off (not impossible). At this point, I don't think I even have any Jaz disks that pass the long format. In any case, the SCSI chain isn't hideously long; 4 devices, all connected with 3-foot cables, so it should be well within spec. Nice, thick cables as well. Disconnecting the Jaz drive doesn't seem to have solved the problem; next I'll try the Zip drive. It's also altogether possible that the update to the latest firmware on the CQD-220 has introduced some instability in the card itself, since the error logs seem to be indicating that the controller needs to get reset. Specifically, I'm getting this error once in a while: ******************************* ENTRY 40. ******************************* ERROR SEQUENCE 44. LOGGED ON: SID 0A000006 DATE/TIME 6-MAY-2013 11:49:18.76 SYS_TYPE 01530302 SYSTEM UPTIME: 0 DAYS 02:38:10 SCS NODE: GONDOR VAX/VMS V7.3 ERL$LOGMSCP KA655 CPU FW REV# 7. CONSOLE FW REV# 5.3 MESSAGE TYPE 0010 IMMEDIATE MODE COMMAND TIMEOUT _ CONTROLLER RESET CLASS DRIVER 4B534944 /DISK/ CDDB$Q_CNTRLID 00D60000 010D0000 UNIQUE IDENTIFIER, 000000D60000(X) MASS STORAGE CONTROLLER KDA50-Q CDDB$B_SYSTEMID 80C18E68 8000 It's followed by a few other entries documenting the reset and init sequence. My thinking is that the controller shouldn't be timing out on MSCP commands just because of some balky devices on the SCSI bus, though having seen some of the failure modes of the firmware of the CQD-220, I wouldn't be entirely surprised. I wonder if Glen ever ended up updating the firmware on his, and whether similar problems began to manifest. I might try dropping down to the A8 rev tonight to see if that improves the situation; now that I have a better CD drive, I don't really need the updated firmware (though it does have some nice features). - Dave From cube1 at charter.net Mon May 6 11:53:20 2013 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay jaeger) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 06:53:20 -1000 Subject: Available S-100 PCBs Message-ID: hi. I was on the list, for two boards, but am on vacation. Will contact you in a 11 days Andrew Lynch wrote: >Hi! > >Here is an update on available S-100 board PCBs! I've sent out many of the >PCBs and they are almost gone. > >There are 21 of the S-100 IDE V2 reorder PCBs and 2 of the new S-100 bus >terminator/prototyping board PCBs. > >There are 2 of the S-100 LAVA PCBs available. > >http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/IDE%20Board/My%20IDE%20Card.htm > >http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20bus%20t >erminator > >http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board >.htm > >The S-100 PCBs cost the same as before ($20 each).? However due to >unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to change >shipping costs. > >Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional >PCB.? Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each >additional PCB.? This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with >no tracking or insurance.? The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per >usual arrangement. > >I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my >hands.? The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on >shipping.? It affects us all and is most unfortunate.? These boards are >provided "at cost" so there is no margin to absorb any shipping price >increases.? I have to pass them along. > >If you would like one or more S-100 PCBs please send a PayPal to >LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM > >Thanks and have a nice day! > >Andrew Lynch > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 6 14:13:48 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 12:13:48 -0700 Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? Message-ID: The subject says it all, is anyone working on archiving TI-99/4A software? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From sales at elecplus.com Mon May 6 14:34:27 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 14:34:27 -0500 Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0b1601ce4a90$b904d210$2b0e7630$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 2:14 PM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? The subject says it all, is anyone working on archiving TI-99/4A software? Zane The only thing I had with mine was cassette tapes of cartridges. I did not know floppies for the TI99 were even possible! Cindy Croxton ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6293 - Release Date: 05/03/13 From nekonoko at mac.com Mon May 6 14:47:32 2013 From: nekonoko at mac.com (Pete Plank) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 12:47:32 -0700 Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6FBEECE9-13AB-48AE-81CD-2AA0EAE929BE@mac.com> On May 6, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The subject says it all, is anyone working on archiving TI-99/4A software? > > Zane I believe http://www.planet-99.net maintains a disk archive. Pete From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 6 15:22:53 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 21:22:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing the tube in a TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at May 6, 13 04:40:18 pm Message-ID: > > Fun times with a TRS-80 Model 4 (such a nice looking machine!). > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-04-06-replacing-model4-screen.htm Why did you replace the CRT? I notice that your final (?) photo has a caption of the form 'enjoying the green screen', but I thought all M4s had a green phosphor CRT. Well, M3s that have been upgraded don't I guess. As regards removing the final anode connector ('anode cap'. 'EHT flower' :-), etc) most of the time the CRT is automatically discahrged either via a bleeder resistor or via the beam current of the CRT. The only time I've had a reasonable residual voltage on the final anode was on a CRT where the cathode (yes, I mean cathode and not heater) had become disconnected from the base pin, so no beam current. The residual charge in any case is unlikely to be dangerous iteslf, but it may make you jump and hit the CRT or similar. I use my EHT voltmeter (a Heathkit one cosnisting of an 800M resistor and 50uA meter in series). It passes enough current to discharge the CRT and of course you can see when it's discharged. But not everybody has such an instrument (although it's a very useful thing to own if you work a lot on monitors). -tony From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon May 6 15:50:49 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 15:50:49 -0500 Subject: Replacing the tube in a TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Reminds me of working on a recent acquisition... a Mac Plus. The display wasn't working and the case was REALLY dirty to boot, so I removed the CRT/power supply board and all the other guts to R&R and clean the case in the kitchen sink. I told my wife who was sitting on the couch, "you're going to hear a loud snap, so don't freak out." I grounded the tube and... nothing. On most other monitors I've worked on, I've gotten at least a snap out of them (especially color ones), but not with this one. On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Fun times with a TRS-80 Model 4 (such a nice looking machine!). > > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-04-06-replacing-model4-screen.htm > > Why did you replace the CRT? I notice that your final (?) photo has a > caption of the form 'enjoying the green screen', but I thought all M4s > had a green phosphor CRT. Well, M3s that have been upgraded don't I guess. > > As regards removing the final anode connector ('anode cap'. 'EHT flower' > :-), etc) most of the time the CRT is automatically discahrged either > via a bleeder resistor or via the beam current of the CRT. The only time > I've had a reasonable residual voltage on the final anode was on a CRT > where the cathode (yes, I mean cathode and not heater) had become > disconnected from the base pin, so no beam current. > > The residual charge in any case is unlikely to be dangerous iteslf, but > it may make you jump and hit the CRT or similar. > > I use my EHT voltmeter (a Heathkit one cosnisting of an 800M resistor and > 50uA meter in series). It passes enough current to discharge the CRT and > of course you can see when it's discharged. But not everybody has such > an instrument (although it's a very useful thing to own if you work a lot > on monitors). > > -tony > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 6 16:34:14 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 16:34:14 -0500 Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The subject says it all, is anyone working on archiving TI-99/4A software? Coincidentally, I ran across some TI software on 5.25" while sorting the garage last weekend and wondered the same thing. I doubt I have anything that planet-99 does not but one never knows (they were Scott Adams games, iirc.) I'm more interested in the process - can TI99 disks be read without a TI? Say with imgdisk or another PC-based program or, failing that, a Kryoflux? If it does require an actual TI, how would it handle disk imaging? There are no native serial ports, although you can get an RS-232 card for the expansion box. do have a pile of TI99/4A systems and a PEB or two with floppy drives but they are not easily accessible. -j From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon May 6 17:09:06 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 10:09:06 +1200 Subject: Replacing the tube in a TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Why did you replace the CRT? I notice that your final (?) photo has a >caption of the form 'enjoying the green screen', but I thought all M4s >had a green phosphor CRT. Well, M3s that have been upgraded don't I guess. No, only the later M4s had green screens. Earlier ones did not. My B/W one had some screen burn. There was a faint pattern etched into the screen. In the past life the unit must have been on for a long time showing just that one screen image. I've worked on Macs in the past and usually have grounded the tube first. Someone told me that if the machine (at least this TRS-80) had been off for 24 hours then there is little risk of getting a shock, so I didn't bother grounding first. As it was there was no problem. Terry (Tez) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 6 17:18:40 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 15:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 6 May 2013, Jason T wrote: > I'm more interested in the process - can TI99 disks be read without a > TI? Say with imgdisk or another PC-based program or, failing that, a > Kryoflux? SOME PC FDCs should be able to handle it. Dave Dunfield has a small program that you can use to determine whether your PC has a suitable (FM/SD capable) controller (Stock PC does not support single density, but SOME FDC chips can do it.) It is apparently single density, using a 1771 chip, with 9 256 byte sectors per track. single sided, but with provision for expansion to double sided, and/or double density. http://shawweb.myzen.co.uk/stephen/tidisk.htm seems to have a fairly complete write-up about it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 6 17:31:17 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 15:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replacing the tube in a TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130506152832.J48168@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 7 May 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > >had a green phosphor CRT. Well, M3s that have been upgraded don't I guess. When the M4 came out, the college paid $1000 each to upgrade the M3s to M4s. They could have bought M4s for $600 and paid $100 to have the drives and RAM tranferred. > screen. In the past life the unit must have been on for a long time > showing just that one screen image. VisiCalc? From bear at typewritten.org Mon May 6 17:32:23 2013 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 15:32:23 -0700 Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? In-Reply-To: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> On May 6, 2013, at 3:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > SOME PC FDCs should be able to handle it. > Dave Dunfield has a small program that you can use to determine whether > your PC has a suitable (FM/SD capable) controller > (Stock PC does not support single density, but SOME FDC chips can do it.) I've successfully read TI 99/4A floppies with ImageDisk on a PC. My FDC is the embedded controller implemented in the Adaptec AIC7700. I haven't tested writing yet. ok bear. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon May 6 18:39:30 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 16:39:30 -0700 Subject: Old DEC Logo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51883F32.4030603@gmail.com> There is a set of DEC building blocks on ebay (item #290912101738) and I was curious about the DEC logo they have on them. I haven't seen it before. Was it only used on these ? From jws at jwsss.com Mon May 6 18:54:55 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 16:54:55 -0700 Subject: Apple I with high auction estimate on the block Message-ID: <518842CF.10103@jwsss.com> here we go again. I'm waiting for the breathless stories to start. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/03/mac_original_sale_wozniak/ http://auction-team.de/new_highlights/2012_11/oa/001.html From lists at loomcom.com Mon May 6 18:55:45 2013 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 19:55:45 -0400 Subject: Old DEC Logo In-Reply-To: <51883F32.4030603@gmail.com> References: <51883F32.4030603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130506235545.GA13323@mail.loomcom.com> * On Mon, May 06, 2013 at 04:39:30PM -0700, mc68010 wrote: > There is a set of DEC building blocks on ebay (item #290912101738) > and I was curious about the DEC logo they have on them. I haven't > seen it before. Was it only used on these ? Wow, very cool! I don't know how rare those are, but I definitely haven't seen very many of them in the wild. Doug Jones has some info about the DEC logo history on this page: http://www.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/logos/ -Seth From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon May 6 19:10:42 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 17:10:42 -0700 Subject: Old DEC Logo In-Reply-To: <20130506235545.GA13323@mail.loomcom.com> References: <51883F32.4030603@gmail.com> <20130506235545.GA13323@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <51884682.7010602@gmail.com> On 5/6/2013 4:55 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > * On Mon, May 06, 2013 at 04:39:30PM -0700, mc68010 wrote: >> There is a set of DEC building blocks on ebay (item #290912101738) >> and I was curious about the DEC logo they have on them. I haven't >> seen it before. Was it only used on these ? > Wow, very cool! I don't know how rare those are, but I definitely > haven't seen very many of them in the wild. > > Doug Jones has some info about the DEC logo history on this page: > > http://www.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/logos/ > > -Seth Ahh so it was pretty much only those. I think we have to thank that Diary Equipment Company for making them change their logo. We may never have got the nicer looking 'digital' one without them. From barythrin at gmail.com Mon May 6 19:11:12 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 00:11:12 +0000 Subject: Apple I with high auction estimate on the block Message-ID: <565678310-1367885471-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-512150536-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Interesting. Pics look a lot like the last one. Have to be at a computer (not phone) to compare the two auctions. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 6 20:01:04 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 21:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 May 2013, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> The subject says it all, is anyone working on archiving TI-99/4A software? > > Coincidentally, I ran across some TI software on 5.25" while sorting > the garage last weekend and wondered the same thing. I doubt I have > anything that planet-99 does not but one never knows (they were Scott > Adams games, iirc.) > > I'm more interested in the process - can TI99 disks be read without a > TI? Say with imgdisk or another PC-based program or, failing that, a > Kryoflux? The SVD (Semi-Virtual Disk) is able to emulate the TI99 drive. If you have access to a TI expansion chassis it should be possible to image-copy diskettes to the SVD and download to a host PC. -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 6 20:05:28 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 18:05:28 -0700 Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:34 PM -0500 5/6/13, Jason T wrote: >Coincidentally, I ran across some TI software on 5.25" while sorting >the garage last weekend and wondered the same thing. I doubt I have >anything that planet-99 does not but one never knows (they were Scott >Adams games, iirc.) The stuff I have looks like it might be obscure, which leads me to think it should be saved, however, I have neither the time, nor the setup to do so. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 6 20:55:44 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 18:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: stepper motor on S100 buss terminator Message-ID: Can anyone understand why someone would attached a stepper motor to an S100 buss terminator board? See http://www.ebay.com/itm/230976941854 for headscratching goodness. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon May 6 21:34:46 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 21:34:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: stepper motor on S100 buss terminator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 May 2013, David Griffith wrote: > Can anyone understand why someone would attached a stepper motor to an > S100 buss terminator board? See http://www.ebay.com/itm/230976941854 > for headscratching goodness. The experimenter/builder didn't have a prototyping board but had a buss terminator board handy? From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon May 6 21:51:51 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 21:51:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: uVAX 3900 out to lunch after inactivity In-Reply-To: <1E468196-13F2-4F07-BB39-425E15FED10C@gmail.com> References: <01OTAOVSRC2A006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> <3D17512B-0DC4-4B4B-8574-DB84038BFC27@gmail.com> <1E468196-13F2-4F07-BB39-425E15FED10C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 May 2013, David Riley wrote: > On May 5, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> How long is the SCSI chain? The first thing that came to mind for me >> was the possibility of a SCSI bus issue since I've seen similar >> behavior with other systems. In fact, since you just mentioned the Jaz >> drive, it could very well be the culprit. I had major compatibility >> issues with Jaz drives in a non-PC application back when they were >> current products and I ended up having to connect them to a PC to >> update their firmware and change their internal settings. A quick >> Google search turned up this link too: >> http://www.linux-m68k.org/faq/howjaz.html > > I'm familiar with the general problems with Jaz drives, but this > particular one has never given me much trouble. Having workable disks > around is a problem, though; they all seem to die over time, even > disused (unlike Zip disks, which have always been fine for me). I got > 10 off eBay and they all failed a long format, which I hope doesn't > actually mean the drive in the Mac I was formatting them has gone off > (not impossible). At this point, I don't think I even have any Jaz > disks that pass the long format. > > In any case, the SCSI chain isn't hideously long; 4 devices, all > connected with 3-foot cables, so it should be well within spec. Nice, > thick cables as well. Disconnecting the Jaz drive doesn't seem to have > solved the problem; next I'll try the Zip drive. It's also altogether > possible that the update to the latest firmware on the CQD-220 has > introduced some instability in the card itself, since the error logs > seem to be indicating that the controller needs to get reset. > > Specifically, I'm getting this error once in a while: > MESSAGE TYPE 0010 > IMMEDIATE MODE COMMAND TIMEOUT > _ CONTROLLER RESET > It's followed by a few other entries documenting the reset and init sequence. > My thinking is that the controller shouldn't be timing out on MSCP commands > just because of some balky devices on the SCSI bus, though having seen some > of the failure modes of the firmware of the CQD-220, I wouldn't be entirely > surprised. Resets are common when there is data corruption or noise on a SCSI bus. With single-ended Fast SCSI, the recommended max cable length is 3 meters (~10ft) so you are already close to the length limit, if all the devices are well behaved. You might try using active terminators and/or shorter cables and see if that helps too. You don't happen to have a wide (16 bit) device attached to the SCSI bus with an adapter do you? From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 7 02:16:11 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 08:16:11 +0100 Subject: Apple I with high auction estimate on the block In-Reply-To: <518842CF.10103@jwsss.com> References: <518842CF.10103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: > here we go again. I'm waiting for the breathless stories to start. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/03/mac_original_sale_wozniak/ > > http://auction-team.de/new_highlights/2012_11/oa/001.html > look at the date in the second url and at the front page that points to History...some are easily taken in Dave Caroline From silent700 at gmail.com Tue May 7 03:12:37 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 03:12:37 -0500 Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? In-Reply-To: <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 5:32 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > I've successfully read TI 99/4A floppies with ImageDisk on a PC. My FDC is the embedded controller implemented in the Adaptec AIC7700. My ImageDisk floppy controller of choice is the one on the Adaptec AHA-1522A, mainly because I had one around but also because it rates 9 "P" scores on Dave's list of tested controllers. Do you know if the AIC7700 tests similarly well? It might be useful to have a PCI card that works with ImageDisk also. -j From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue May 7 06:14:28 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 12:14:28 +0100 Subject: RSTS/E and simh Message-ID: Hi Guys, I used to mess about with RSTS/E when I was a kid, and even managed to get into trouble with ASU and the folks that worked at the remote sites... banned, basically. (I went on to work there years later after the PDP11s had been scrapped...) Anyhow, I've been running one I built from tape with simh for ages... it's accessible on line via my bbs (telnet bbs.cortex-media.info) I've got an old, incomplete version of dungeon on there. I've found a more complete version in Fortran. What is the best way to get the files onto the emulated disk so I can build it? Would it be better to install decnet or use kermit or what? thanks, John -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. --Max Bialystock From bear at typewritten.org Tue May 7 10:33:04 2013 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 08:33:04 -0700 Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? In-Reply-To: References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On May 7, 2013, at 1:12 AM, Jason T wrote: > Do you know if the AIC7700 tests similarly well? It might be useful > to have a PCI card that works with ImageDisk also. It seems to? I haven't explicitly compared it with the 1522. AFAIK the PCI cards are all AIC7800 - I'm only aware of EISA and VLB cards. ok bear. -- until further notice From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 7 10:51:24 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 08:51:24 -0700 Subject: PCI floppy controllers (Re: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> On 5/7/13 8:33 AM, r.stricklin wrote: > > On May 7, 2013, at 1:12 AM, Jason T wrote: > >> Do you know if the AIC7700 tests similarly well? It might be useful >> to have a PCI card that works with ImageDisk also. > > It seems to? I haven't explicitly compared it with the 1522. AFAIK the PCI cards are all AIC7800 - I'm only aware of EISA and VLB cards. > I'm confused. AIC-7800 has nothing to do with controlling floppies. You still need a separate floppy disk controller and the gunk required for PCI DMA mastering/forwarding. Dig back on the list for the discussion last year talking about John Wilson's efforts at building a floppy controller in an FPGA, my request for a PCI version, and how getting that to work on 'modern' PC hardware is difficult. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 7 11:04:49 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 12:04:49 -0400 Subject: PCI floppy controllers (Re: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies?) In-Reply-To: <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On May 7, 2013, at 11:51 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Dig back on the list for the discussion last year talking about John Wilson's efforts at building a floppy controller in an > FPGA, my request for a PCI version, and how getting that to work on 'modern' PC hardware is difficult. I don't remember that discussion, which is odd, because it's right up my alley (and another one of my pipe dreams that I have a hard time actually getting around to). How fixed are you on PCI? USB is a little more forward-compatible and also a lot easier to do drivers (or pseudo-drivers in libusb) for. And that would be relatively cheap hardware to build, which is what typically stops me from doing most of my projects. It occurs to me, though, that a lot of modern microcontrollers are fast enough to decode the data using the built-in capture and compare timer functions, though I think there's a good chance that would be a lot more work to make reliable than a digital PLL in an FPGA. - Dave From bear at typewritten.org Tue May 7 11:19:41 2013 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 09:19:41 -0700 Subject: PCI floppy controllers (Re: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies?) In-Reply-To: <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5504504E-E07C-4ECC-A6DE-F588CE4814E4@typewritten.org> On May 7, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I'm confused. AIC-7800 has nothing to do with controlling floppies. You still need a separate floppy disk controller and the gunk > required for PCI DMA mastering/forwarding. I was talking about using the floppy controller on the AIC7700 boards with ImageDisk. Somebody thought that meant PCI. It doesn't. Thus, "AFAIK the PCI boards are all AIC7800". I'm not aware of an AIC7700 that isn't EISA or VLB. Certainly I've never seen an Adaptec PCI SCSI host adapter with a floppy interface on it. ok bear. -- until further notice From sales at elecplus.com Tue May 7 11:38:41 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 11:38:41 -0500 Subject: PCI floppy controllers In-Reply-To: <5504504E-E07C-4ECC-A6DE-F588CE4814E4@typewritten.org> References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> <5504504E-E07C-4ECC-A6DE-F588CE4814E4@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <025301ce4b41$5586fb30$0094f190$@com> Certainly I've never seen an Adaptec PCI SCSI host adapter with a floppy interface on it. We have VLB boards with SCSI and floppy, and we have several versions of Adaptec ISA boards with SCSI and floppy, but I have never seen a PCI card with SCSI and floppy either. On the other hand, there are plenty of PCI cards that control both floppy and IDE drives, but not SCSI. Cindy ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6304 - Release Date: 05/06/13 From tom94022 at comcast.net Tue May 7 12:04:38 2013 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 10:04:38 -0700 Subject: PC Portable Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A friend, Gerald Heitel [gheitel at gmail.com], not a member of this group has an IBM PC Portable in "mint condition" with original manuals and several software programs, floppy discs, etc. He offered it to the Computer History Museum, but they said that they already had one in their collection. He is seeking to contribute to a computer museum or sell to a private collector at a nominal price. Contact Gerry directly if interested or can help find a home. Tom From alan at alanlee.org Tue May 7 12:12:48 2013 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 13:12:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PCI floppy controllers (Re: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <280012884.61959.1367946768479.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> You don't need an FPGA to do floppy interfacing. Most speedy microcontrollers can do it with just bit-banged I/O. What would be nice from a feature stand-point is a floppy<->USB board that could go both ways. eg. Mode 1) Read a USB stick and emulate a drive to a host. Mode 2) Interface a real drive to a USB host both as MSC and with full image archive capture capability. Would require a micro that goes both ways on USB like a PIC32 or STM32 as well as switchable pull-ups on every floppy data line. But it could be done very cheaply. -Alan On May 7, 2013 at 12:04 PM David Riley wrote: > On May 7, 2013, at 11:51 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Dig back on the list for the discussion last year talking about John > > Wilson's efforts at building a floppy controller in an > > FPGA, my request for a PCI version, and how getting that to work on 'modern' > > PC hardware is difficult. > > I don't remember that discussion, which is odd, because it's right up my > alley (and another one of my pipe dreams that I have a hard time actually > getting around to). How fixed are you on PCI? USB is a little more > forward-compatible and also a lot easier to do drivers (or pseudo-drivers > in libusb) for. And that would be relatively cheap hardware to build, > which is what typically stops me from doing most of my projects. > > It occurs to me, though, that a lot of modern microcontrollers are fast > enough to decode the data using the built-in capture and compare timer > functions, though I think there's a good chance that would be a lot more > work to make reliable than a digital PLL in an FPGA. > > > - Dave > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 7 12:33:29 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 10:33:29 -0700 Subject: PCI floppy controllers In-Reply-To: <025301ce4b41$5586fb30$0094f190$@com> References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> <5504504E-E07C-4ECC-A6DE-F588CE4814E4@typewritten.org> <025301ce4b41$5586fb30$0094f190$@com> Message-ID: <51893AE9.4030203@sydex.com> On 05/07/2013 09:38 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > On the other hand, there are plenty of PCI cards that control both floppy > and IDE drives, but not SCSI. I've never seen one--at least not one that supports "legacy" floppy interfaces (e.g. DMA 2, IRQ 6, port 3Fx). I suppose that one could be built using a PCI-to-ISA bridge, but that's not a project I'd be eager to undertake. Non-legacy controllers (i.e. ones that won't work with Imagedisk) are available, such as the Catweasel, but they're a very different animal. --Chuck From erik at baigar.de Tue May 7 12:43:49 2013 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 19:43:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DG Compiler issue - Stand-alone lib, SOS.LB, SOS SYSGEN In-Reply-To: <517D5E9C.4080104@Wild-Hare.com> References: <517D5E9C.4080104@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: Hi Bruce, thanks for replying to my question. Perhaps you did not get my PM, so here an update on my latest state of knowledge: What I want to do is to run simple programs in stand alone mode, i.e. without starting RDOS. What I can for example is to run the factorial.al demo listed in the Algol manual without any problem in the RDOS environment (I fortunately got from you in 2012): algol factorial.al (Compile) rldr factorial.rb @library.cm@ (Link/Load) factorial (Execute) This nicely demonstrates the capabilities of the multi digit integer numbers of Algol. Now I want to run this as stand alone demo on a real machine (this machine only has 8k of memory and no disk/tape drives which prevents the use of RDOS on it). Therefore I have generate a stand alone binary. First step is to compile it according to the manual as usual, but thereafter the manual states that I will need SOS.SV to generate a trigger which is done by issuing the command "SOS SYSGEN" Additionally I will need the SOS.LB which contains the standard library functions of the stand alone operating system environment. This file should be more than 8000 Bytes in size (there exists a dummy SOS.LB which is much smaller). According to the manual the process of generating a stand-alone file on paper tape would be algol factorial.al (Compilie) sos sysgen (Generate Trigger for the stand alone system) rldr/c factorial trig @library.cm@ (Linker) mkabs/z factorial $PTP (Punch binary) I already successfully generated assembler stand alone files (which of course do not use the stand-alone operating system but are pure assembler code, e.g. the FigForth or own small programs). I'd be really happy if you can supply the stand-alone stuff and as stated above I think I will need tapes from the stand alone operating system and the SOS.LB. I just checked: Going the way of the stand alone Algol (i.e. without RDOS) also requires this SOS.LB and the trigger to generate loadable programs. But one additionally has the disadvantage of having to be a paper tape jockey - at least virtually in the simulation. Any help (tips or tapes) are highly welcome, many thanks, Erik. > I will check for stand-alone ALGOL tapes for you when I get back to the > office this week. Anything else? What other fun projects are you working > on? > > > Bruce > On Sun, 28 Apr 2013, Bruce Ray wrote: > G'day Erik - > > I will contact you off-list... > > Bruce > > > On 4/25/2013 1:36 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: >> >> Dear DG-Addicts, >> >> I am running RDOS (within simh) and I can readily compile >> and run Algol programs in this environment. Now want to >> compile Algol programs to be loaded stand-alone onto a >> 8k store machine via paper tape. To do this, a library >> called SOS.LB is needed (at least the linker complains, that >> it is missing) and so the question is whether some one >> out there has already compiled stand alone programs >> using RDOS and probably has the SOS.LB for Algol, and >> eventually further files required, available? >> >> I already tried to get in touch with people involved in >> these web sites >> >> http://www.chookfest.net/nova3/paper-tapes.html >> http://www.ludd.luth.se/~ragge/nova/swdocs.html >> >> but so far I have not got hands on the Algol stand alone >> stuff. BTW: I do NOT want to use the stand-alone tool >> chain, but generate the programs using the RDOS (because >> this is more convenient). Any hints are welcome, >> >> best regards, >> >> Erik. >> >> > From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 7 13:02:41 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 14:02:41 -0400 Subject: PCI floppy controllers In-Reply-To: <51893AE9.4030203@sydex.com> References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> <5504504E-E07C-4ECC-A6DE-F588CE4814E4@typewritten.org> <025301ce4b41$5586fb30$0094f190$@com> <51893AE9.4030203@sydex.com> Message-ID: <78D827BC-F17B-473A-9738-D7276381BC56@gmail.com> On May 7, 2013, at 1:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/07/2013 09:38 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> On the other hand, there are plenty of PCI cards that control both floppy >> and IDE drives, but not SCSI. > > I've never seen one--at least not one that supports "legacy" floppy interfaces (e.g. DMA 2, IRQ 6, port 3Fx). I suppose that one could be built using a PCI-to-ISA bridge, but that's not a project I'd be eager to undertake. Oh, I see. You can definitely do THAT with an FPGA talking PCI; since PCI is an architecture designed for PCs, it certainly supports the concept of I/O space (much to the consternation of the non-x86 world, which by and large doesn't do I/O space and has to emulate it somehow). If you made a standard floppy controller and set up your PCI configuration space to specify the proper I/O port and such, you could definitely make that work with DOS just fine. Is that what you were talking about, Al? - Dave From silent700 at gmail.com Tue May 7 13:04:09 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 13:04:09 -0500 Subject: PCI floppy controllers (Re: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies?) In-Reply-To: <5504504E-E07C-4ECC-A6DE-F588CE4814E4@typewritten.org> References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> <5504504E-E07C-4ECC-A6DE-F588CE4814E4@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 11:19 AM, r.stricklin wrote: > I was talking about using the floppy controller on the AIC7700 boards with ImageDisk. > > Somebody thought that meant PCI. It doesn't. Thus, "AFAIK the PCI boards are all AIC7800". I'm not aware of an AIC7700 that isn't EISA or VLB. Certainly I've never seen an Adaptec PCI SCSI host adapter with a floppy interface on it. Correct - I had interpreted 7700 as a PCI board - forgot about good ol' EISA. Was going to say I had never heard of a PCI SCSI card with a floppy controller in it. From wilson at dbit.com Tue May 7 13:16:26 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 14:16:26 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E and simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130507181626.GA4305@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 12:14:28PM +0100, John Many Jars wrote: >I've got an old, incomplete version of dungeon on there. I've found a >more complete version in Fortran. What is the best way to get the >files onto the emulated disk so I can build it? If you're willing to take a brief foray into DOS (or DOSEMU or a 32-bit Windows machine) to do the transfer, my PUTR.COM utility can do it: http://www.dbit.com/putr/ Paul Koning's "flx" can do it too, and it's *not* DOS-only, but I don't know the URL for the latest version. I've got a FUSE filesystem for RSTS in the works (along with 1,000 other things) but so far it's read-only. (The "big plan" is to rewrite PUTR.COM in portable C and make its guts superficially FUSE-like so that I can write FS drivers that work either stand-alone or as part of PUTR -- but that's a long-range plan.) John Wilson D Bit From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 7 13:32:15 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 14:32:15 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E and simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91F0452C-A1C8-476F-979D-F5147A2FAD3D@gmail.com> On May 7, 2013, at 7:14 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > I've got an old, incomplete version of dungeon on there. I've found a > more complete version in Fortran. What is the best way to get the > files onto the emulated disk so I can build it? > > Would it be better to install decnet or use kermit or what? Isn't simh's paper tape reader just a binary file reader? I seem to recall that being the answer to a lot of questions similar to this. If there are a lot of files, though, I can imagine that being a real pain. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 7 13:32:59 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 14:32:59 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E and simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 7:14 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I used to mess about with RSTS/E when I was a kid... > > Anyhow, I've been running one I built from tape with simh for ages... > it's accessible on line via my bbs (telnet bbs.cortex-media.info) > > I've got an old, incomplete version of dungeon on there. I'll say! The newspaper is from 28-Jun-1978 and has hints about a new feature near the gallery (the bank, presumably). It's old enough that it even has Bob Supnik's mailstop (pre-dating the phrase "somewhat paranoid DEC engineer who prefers to remain anonymous"). > I've found a more complete version in Fortran. Yes. There is a later FORTRAN version (also written by Bob Supnik) that includes the newest puzzles (palantir, etc)... 3.2A? 3.2B? AFAIK, it should compile and run fine on RSTS/E. Dunno what version might be required, but it looks like you are running 9.2 and I would expect that to be acceptable (I wouldn't try it on version 7, at least not at first, just out of concern of resource constraints). > What is the best way to get the > files onto the emulated disk so I can build it? > > Would it be better to install decnet or use kermit or what? Kermit is certainly one way to do it. That's how I was moving Infocom game data files around on Dave McGuire's PDP-11/70 at VCFe last year (after I updated the RT-11 game engine to run on RSTS/E, my first foray into RSTS application programming). Good luck! -ethan From wilson at dbit.com Tue May 7 13:49:20 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 14:49:20 -0400 Subject: PCI floppy controllers (Re: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies?) In-Reply-To: References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20130507184920.GB4305@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 12:04:49PM -0400, David Riley wrote: >I don't remember that discussion, which is odd, because it's right up my >alley (and another one of my pipe dreams that I have a hard time actually >getting around to). How fixed are you on PCI? USB is a little more >forward-compatible and also a lot easier to do drivers (or pseudo-drivers >in libusb) for. And that would be relatively cheap hardware to build, >which is what typically stops me from doing most of my projects. All the same thoughts I had, but I'm using a microcontroller instead of an FPGA so it may not have caught your eye. I have a USB to SA4xx/SA8xx prototype sitting here based on the XMOS XS1: http://www.dbit.com/wilson/usbflop.jpg ... but some E11 user requests came up so I'm un-sidetracked for the time being (hoping to get back to this once that stuff's released). I'm also working on an ISA version which is much farther along: http://www.dbit.com/wilson/isaflop.jpg That's a pic of Rev B -- I have a Rev C now which fixes some HW bugs and gets it down to one internal 34-pin connector (in Rev B I blindly lifted the needlessly complex connector setup from Rev A which used a real PC8477B, but of course everything's bit-banged in the XMOS XS1 version so all pinouts can be accommodated in one connector). The firmware is about half done -- read-only, works with SD or DD (RX02 there but untested so far), but the BIOS in my (Compaq) test machine doesn't detect it as an FDC and refuses to drive it so I have to sort that out. (I've got a new ISA mobo supposedly arriving today since the ISA slots in my main PC flaked out ages ago -- I *love* that anyone still makes new mobos with ISA slots!) I think the window for sensibly doing a PCI version has really closed. Evidently (I found this out only recently or I might have wasted a chunk of my life on it), classic PCI *does* have a method ("distributed DMA") for accessing the i8237 DMA controller on the motherboard (which is required for SW compatibility with an ISA FDC), but recent motherboard chipsets no longer support it. Now if you build a PCI FDC, it can't be SW compatible with a real FDC, so why bother? It might as well be a USB device, since for now USB looks like less of a moving target. Plus, thanks to BIOS trickery, it might even still be bootable. John Wilson D Bit From sales at elecplus.com Tue May 7 14:00:58 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 14:00:58 -0500 Subject: PCI floppy controllers In-Reply-To: <51893AE9.4030203@sydex.com> References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> <5504504E-E07C-4ECC-A6DE-F588CE4814E4@typewritten.org> <025301ce4b41$5586fb30$0094f190$@com> <51893AE9.4030203@sydex.com> Message-ID: <030101ce4b55$35e29c30$a1a7d490$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 12:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PCI floppy controllers On 05/07/2013 09:38 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > On the other hand, there are plenty of PCI cards that control both > floppy and IDE drives, but not SCSI. I've never seen one--at least not one that supports "legacy" floppy interfaces (e.g. DMA 2, IRQ 6, port 3Fx). I suppose that one could be built using a PCI-to-ISA bridge, but that's not a project I'd be eager to undertake. Try the Gigabyte GA-107 or GA-108 http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-disk-floppy-controllers/E-H/GIGA-BYTE-TECHN OLOGY-CO-LTD-Four-IDE-AT-drives-GA.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6304 - Release Date: 05/06/13 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 7 14:02:00 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 20:02:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing the tube in a TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at May 7, 13 10:09:06 am Message-ID: > I've worked on Macs in the past and usually have grounded the tube first. > Someone told me that if the machine (at least this TRS-80) had been off > for 24 hours then there is little risk of getting a shock, so I didn't > bother grounding first. As it was there was no problem. The charge is stored betwee nthe final anode (aquadag coating on the inside of the 'flare') and a similar groudned coatign on the outisde. This forms a capacitor with the glass envelope of the CRT as the dielectric. This is the smoothing capacitor for the EHT supply, of course. Now glass is a pprtty good insulator, and it's unlilely the capacitor would self-disharge due to such leakage in a day oe so. But there are other discharge paths. Some better monitors, paricualrly colour ones have a bleeer resistor across the EHT supply. Often this is actually a potential divvder used to measure the EHT voltage and thus control a regulator circuit. In any case, it'll discharge the CRT in a few minutes at most. The otehr discharge path is via the electron beam. If, at turn-off, the HET genrato suts fown first, there will be some reisidual beam current (the cathode will eb hot enough to emit electrons, etc) and this will obviously discahrge the CRT. I susepct that's what haappens in the M4, sicne I am not aware of a bleeder resistor in the circuit. This will take a minute or so at most. I think leaving it overnight will do no more good than leaving it for 5 minutes. However, it's always safest to discharge the CRT before working on it. Beelder resitors can fail. Due to a fault there might be no beam current at all. I anm not in favour of just shroting the anode conenctor to chassi groudn, though. If there is a considerable residual charge, the peak current will be quite high .This can damage the conenction between the fianl anode and its conenctor inside the CRT. Yo uca nalso end up with currents flwoing where you least espsct them,zapping semiconductors all over the machine. No, I prefer to use a resistor or EHT meter for this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 7 14:06:09 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 20:06:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing the tube in a TRS-80 Model 4 In-Reply-To: <20130506152832.J48168@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 6, 13 03:31:17 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 7 May 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > > >had a green phosphor CRT. Well, M3s that have been upgraded don't I guess. > > When the M4 came out, the college paid $1000 each to upgrade the M3s to IRIC< the upgrade was a new CPU board and new keyboard. Were those parts really more expensive than a complete machine? > M4s. They could have bought M4s for $600 and paid $100 to have the drives > and RAM tranferred. Drivee, ues. The floppy drives, PSUs, FDC board and RS232 board are the same between the M3 and M4. But not the RAM. M3s use 4116s (16K*1 RAM). An M4 can have 1 bank of 4116s (the very uncommon 16K version), 1 bacnk of 4164s (64K) or 2 banks of 4164s (128K, you need t ofit a PAL chip in place of a jumper block for this upgrade). So the 4116s from a M3 are no use in an M4. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 7 14:09:55 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 20:09:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: stepper motor on S100 buss terminator In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at May 6, 13 06:55:44 pm Message-ID: > > > Can anyone understand why someone would attached a stepper motor to an > S100 buss terminator board? See http://www.ebay.com/itm/230976941854 for > headscratching goodness. My guess is that they wanted to interface the stepper motor to an S100 system but had no prototyping board (or no spare slot) to hand. So they kludged the itnerfac etogether and picked up the necessary signasl on the terminator board. Not neat and tidy, but not totally crazy either. -tony From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue May 7 14:46:02 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 15:46:02 -0400 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: <518798E9.8368.5D274A@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <518798E9.8368.5D274A@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <518959FA.5020605@sbcglobal.net> On 05/06/2013 08:50 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> The classiccmp server is broken. >> >> Or something is doing horrible things to throttle bandwidth at his new provider. >> I've seen stalls for a minute on ftp wgets (which is how I sync bitsavers), >> lots of random 503's on web accesses, and random POP login failures. > > When I access either my site or the mailing list, through the web I get: > > ------ > Service Temporarily Unavailable > > The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later. > > Apache/2.2.23 (FreeBSD) PHP/5.3.18 with Suhosin-Patch mod_ssl/2.2.23 OpenSSL/0.9.8x DAV/2 Server at www.classiccmp.org Port 80 > ------ > > This appears to be a 503 originating at this server. > When I access my site, I see individual 503 errors on many (sometimes most) of the photo link accesses. > I would guess that the wgets fails becase it get s a 503 error, probably not knowing what it means, only that > the accessed failed - and retries until it gets through which is what is taking a minite - (I've sat hear reclicking > links for nearly a minite trying to open a message in the archive). > > To me it looks like a server problem. > Dave > This has got me thinking... Unless I missed it, is Mr. Jay West still active here? or just behind the scenes running the show? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue May 7 14:51:09 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 12:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: <518959FA.5020605@sbcglobal.net> References: <518798E9.8368.5D274A@dave13.dunfield.com> <518959FA.5020605@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 May 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 05/06/2013 08:50 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>>> The classiccmp server is broken. >>> >>> Or something is doing horrible things to throttle bandwidth at his new >>> provider. >>> I've seen stalls for a minute on ftp wgets (which is how I sync >>> bitsavers), >>> lots of random 503's on web accesses, and random POP login failures. >> >> When I access either my site or the mailing list, through the web I get: >> >> ------ >> Service Temporarily Unavailable >> >> The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance >> downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later. >> [snip] >> > This has got me thinking... Unless I missed it, is Mr. Jay West still > active here? or just behind the scenes running the show? > He lurks. I talked with him last night on IRC about this and apparently the invidual-site bandwidth manager was busily contemplating it's own navel while randomly smashing sites. He should have it resolved by now. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue May 7 15:05:06 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 16:05:06 -0400 Subject: Downsizing - many systems available In-Reply-To: References: <518798E9.8368.5D274A@dave13.dunfield.com> <518959FA.5020605@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51895E72.8000203@sbcglobal.net> On 05/07/2013 03:51 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 7 May 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> On 05/06/2013 08:50 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>>>> The classiccmp server is broken. >>>> >>>> Or something is doing horrible things to throttle bandwidth at his >>>> new provider. >>>> I've seen stalls for a minute on ftp wgets (which is how I sync >>>> bitsavers), >>>> lots of random 503's on web accesses, and random POP login failures. >>> >>> When I access either my site or the mailing list, through the web I get: >>> >>> ------ >>> Service Temporarily Unavailable >>> >>> The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to >>> maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later. >>> > [snip] >>> >> This has got me thinking... Unless I missed it, is Mr. Jay West >> still active here? or just behind the scenes running the show? >> > > He lurks. I talked with him last night on IRC about this and apparently > the invidual-site bandwidth manager was busily contemplating it's own > navel while randomly smashing sites. He should have it resolved by now. :) > > g. > > Thanks. I wasn't worried so much about the site, more about him; good to know he's well. It has been a few years since I was here... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 7 15:21:19 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 13:21:19 -0700 Subject: IBM 2.88 mb microcode floppies Message-ID: <5189623F.5040902@jwsss.com> anyone have a way to image these? on a separate note, can anyone recommend how to get the images back out to media? I have some pretty rare token ring / 3290 microcode disks that probably should be archived somewhere. I tried to prepare to get a 3174-91R to talk to Hercules, and along the way, got IBM to send 3290 microcode for the unit. Another fellow on the Hercules list is working on bringing up a 3290, and I'd certainly like to help, but am not particularly anxious to send him my media. Obviously if I get images, he will have to obtain media from somewhere, maybe buy some of the scrap ones off ebay and overwrite them, but maybe someone has some stashed. Thanks Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 7 15:35:09 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 16:35:09 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] IBM 2.88 mb microcode floppies In-Reply-To: <5189623F.5040902@jwsss.com> References: <5189623F.5040902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5189657D.5030305@neurotica.com> On 05/07/2013 04:21 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > anyone have a way to image these? on a separate note, can anyone recommend > how to get the images back out to media? > > I have some pretty rare token ring / 3290 microcode disks that probably > should be archived somewhere. I tried to prepare to get a 3174-91R to talk > to Hercules, and along the way, got IBM to send 3290 microcode for the unit. I have an image of the 3290 disk, in particular. I also have the physical floppy, that I obtained separately. (just letting you know that that disk in particular has been archived...let me know if you want a copy of the image) > Another fellow on the Hercules list is working on bringing up a 3290, and I'd > certainly like to help, but am not particularly anxious to send him my > media. Obviously if I get images, he will have to obtain media from > somewhere, maybe buy some of the scrap ones off ebay and overwrite them, but > maybe someone has some stashed. I'm not on the Hercules list, but I've made a great deal of progress with my 3174 (not quite there yet)...maybe I can help this guy out. Can you put him in touch with me? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 7 16:35:20 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 17:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is anyone archiving TI-99/4A floppies? In-Reply-To: References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> Message-ID: Shame on me for not remembing this, but the DeviceSide FC-5025 is a little USB-connected, microcontroller based gadget that will read TI-99 diskettes (and many others as well): http://www.deviceside.com I have one here, but have obviously never used it for TI diskettes :-). Steve -- From redodd at comcast.net Tue May 7 16:49:37 2013 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 17:49:37 -0400 Subject: S100 stuff Message-ID: <518976F1.1080001@comcast.net> I was looking at a Hannspree TV that this person has on ebay and found a whole lot of S100 stuff. Ralph From redodd at comcast.net Tue May 7 16:50:52 2013 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 17:50:52 -0400 Subject: S100 stuff Message-ID: <5189773C.6070303@comcast.net> I guess I should have added this. andamanauctions on ebay Ralph From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 7 16:58:00 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 14:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 stuff In-Reply-To: <518976F1.1080001@comcast.net> References: <518976F1.1080001@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 May 2013, Ralph E. Dodd wrote: > I was looking at a Hannspree TV that this person has on ebay and found a > whole lot of S100 stuff. Who are you referring to? I have a lot of S100 stuff which I'm selling under the name "frotz661". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue May 7 17:15:31 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 23:15:31 +0100 Subject: RSTS/E and simh In-Reply-To: <20130507181626.GA4305@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130507181626.GA4305@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On 7 May 2013 19:16, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 12:14:28PM +0100, John Many Jars wrote: >>I've got an old, incomplete version of dungeon on there. I've found a >>more complete version in Fortran. What is the best way to get the >>files onto the emulated disk so I can build it? > > If you're willing to take a brief foray into DOS (or DOSEMU or a 32-bit > Windows machine) to do the transfer, my PUTR.COM utility can do it: > Hi John, Dos doesn't scare me, and your utility works perfectly. In fact, i think it was the one I used years ago when i set this thing up! Thanks. Now, if I could only get it to work. The source I found, on the simh website, says it is for: Dungeon is a maze-solving game for solitaire play. V3.2 runs on any OpenVMS VAX, OpenVMS AXP, OSF/1 AXP, or RISC ULTRIX system Do you guys know where there is a version for RSTS, or am I just not doing something right. I haven't tried to compile or link anything on a RSTS system in about 30 years -- and I was never into Fortran. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. --Max Bialystock From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue May 7 17:18:35 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 23:18:35 +0100 Subject: RSTS/E and simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 May 2013 19:32, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Yes. There is a later FORTRAN version (also written by > Bob Supnik) that includes the newest puzzles (palantir, > etc)... 3.2A? 3.2B? AFAIK, it should compile and run > fine on RSTS/E. Dunno what version might be required, > but it looks like you are running 9.2 and I would expect > that to be acceptable (I wouldn't try it on version 7, at > least not at first, just out of concern of resource constraints). You don't happen to have a copy do you? The source I found says it's good for: = Dungeon is a maze-solving game for solitaire play. V3.2 runs on any OpenVMS VAX, OpenVMS AXP, OSF/1 AXP, or RISC ULTRIX system The commands in build.com don't work, as I bet they are for VMS. I haven't tried to compile or link anything on a RSTS system in about 30 years -- and I was never into Fortran. > > Kermit is certainly one way to do it. That's how I was moving > Infocom game data files around on Dave McGuire's PDP-11/70 > at VCFe last year (after I updated the RT-11 game engine to > run on RSTS/E, my first foray into RSTS application programming). the PUTR utility (as above in the thread) works great. I just can't get anywhere after that. I'd have better luck if I was 13 again... I was a lot better at this back in the day! (; > Good luck! Thanks! So far, no success.. > -ethan -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. --Max Bialystock From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 7 17:36:19 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 15:36:19 -0700 Subject: PCI floppy controllers In-Reply-To: <030101ce4b55$35e29c30$a1a7d490$@com> References: <20130506151213.P48168@shell.lmi.net> <395193E4-5FDF-4DB3-A336-319F2A4EC6EF@typewritten.org> <518922FC.5080803@bitsavers.org> <5504504E-E07C-4ECC-A6DE-F588CE4814E4@typewritten.org> <025301ce4b41$5586fb30$0094f190$@com> <51893AE9.4030203@sydex.com> <030101ce4b55$35e29c30$a1a7d490$@com> Message-ID: <518981E3.4040309@sydex.com> On 05/07/2013 12:00 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > Try the Gigabyte GA-107 or GA-108 > http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-disk-floppy-controllers/E-H/GIGA-BYTE-TECHN > OLOGY-CO-LTD-Four-IDE-AT-drives-GA.html Well, you're right--both the GA-108 and GA-107 have that capability. Both appear to rely on the UM8663AF for floppy and UM8667AF for game port support. A datasheet search brings up nothing on either of these. Anyone got any information on the two ICs? This appears to be a unique product. --Chuck From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Tue May 7 19:57:33 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 00:57:33 +0000 Subject: IBM 2.88 mb microcode floppies In-Reply-To: <5189623F.5040902@jwsss.com> References: <5189623F.5040902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750F033B4@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi there! I'm the other fellow! I follow this list too, but didn't want to make any noise over here just yet. But hey, now that it's been mentioned!! I don't have a 3290 yet, but I'm hoping to acquire one in the near future. I do have a 3174-91R, but as someone else pointed out, that may not be able to support a 3290, as it seems that the 3290 needs the 3174 to either have two floppy drives or a hard disk. I posted the question on the Hercules list since lots of mainframe history buffs hang out there, but my end-goal is actually to hook it up to a P/390. I'd be very interested in how the 3290 microcode was obtained, and if the other requisite software bits are still obtainable... Anyway, since a 3174-91R won't do the trick (correct me if that's wrong), anyone know what the next smallest and simplest 3174 is that'll do? (and, anyone want to sell one? :) ) Thanks much, as always!! -Ben ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Jim Stephens [jws at jwsss.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 1:21 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: IBM 2.88 mb microcode floppies anyone have a way to image these? on a separate note, can anyone recommend how to get the images back out to media? I have some pretty rare token ring / 3290 microcode disks that probably should be archived somewhere. I tried to prepare to get a 3174-91R to talk to Hercules, and along the way, got IBM to send 3290 microcode for the unit. Another fellow on the Hercules list is working on bringing up a 3290, and I'd certainly like to help, but am not particularly anxious to send him my media. Obviously if I get images, he will have to obtain media from somewhere, maybe buy some of the scrap ones off ebay and overwrite them, but maybe someone has some stashed. Thanks Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 7 20:08:09 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 21:08:09 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] RE: IBM 2.88 mb microcode floppies In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750F033B4@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5189623F.5040902@jwsss.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750F033B4@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <5189A579.4010807@neurotica.com> On 05/07/2013 08:57 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > I don't have a 3290 yet, but I'm hoping to acquire one in the near future. > I do have a 3174-91R, but as someone else pointed out, that may not be > able to support a 3290, as it seems that the 3290 needs the 3174 to either > have two floppy drives or a hard disk. I posted the question on the > Hercules list since lots of mainframe history buffs hang out there, but my > end-goal is actually to hook it up to a P/390. > > I'd be very interested in how the 3290 microcode was obtained, and if the > other requisite software bits are still obtainable... I purchased a copy of it from a reseller. I can discuss that with you more specifically off-list. > Anyway, since a 3174-91R won't do the trick (correct me if that's wrong), > anyone know what the next smallest and simplest 3174 is that'll do? (and, > anyone want to sell one? :) ) Yes, you do need the hard drive or second floppy drive. Many 3174 models will work, but in particular the -61R does the right thing, and it can be (optionally) equipped with either Ethernet or Token Ring. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 7 21:09:52 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 02:09:52 +0000 Subject: Apple I with high auction estimate on the block In-Reply-To: <518842CF.10103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998DAABD0@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 5/6/13 4:54 PM, "Jim Stephens" wrote: >here we go again. I'm waiting for the breathless stories to start. > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/03/mac_original_sale_wozniak/ > >http://auction-team.de/new_highlights/2012_11/oa/001.html > > > Here THEY go again. I stand to one side, point and laugh. I am glad that the insanity of these prices ensures the artifacts will be preserved, even if it's in some hedge fund manager's bedroom. -- Ian From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed May 8 00:24:03 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 07:24:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VAX 6000s and HSC controllers available in Winnipeg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello folks, the following cropped up on Bill Bradford's "rescue at sunhelp.org" mailing list. As I didn't see it here yet as well, I hope it is okay to cross post. The equipment probably deserves to be saved, my closest contact is in Guelph ON (which is > 2000 km away, I tend to forget that each and every distance is so huge over there...), and not at all equipped for dealing with that kind of machinery. Not connected in any way other than as a sentient being which takes pity when old iron is to be scrapped :) Arno Cory wrote: > Any hardcore DEC collectors out there? > > $work is finally getting rid of a few rows of classic DEC gear from our > datacentre, which includes 3 VAX 6000s (310, 420, and 610) and a number of HSC > controllers (40, 50, and two 95s). I'm absolutely _not_ offering to ship any > of these items, but they're available for pickup in Winnipeg (Canada) if > anyone is interested. > > Thanks, > Cory. From roe at liveblockauctions.com Tue May 7 07:26:22 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 06:26:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: RSTS/E and simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > ) > > I've got an old, incomplete version of dungeon on there. I've found a > more complete version in Fortran. What is the best way to get the > files onto the emulated disk so I can build it? IIRC,there is a utility called flx out there that will do the job... > > Would it be better to install decnet or use kermit or what? > > thanks, > > John > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been > transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. > > --Max Bialystock From tpresence at hotmail.com Tue May 7 11:41:27 2013 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 10:41:27 -0600 Subject: RSTS/E and simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Linux has a set of decnet tools that work perfectly for this kind of thing, if you have ethernet (libdnet and dnet-progs for debian type distributions). You can also use serial within simh and bring up a DDCMP connection from another host with some software both on windows and linux, and then copy between the systems that way, but its quite alot of trouble. If you don't have ethernet, its probably the easiest means. Kevin > Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 12:14:28 +0100 > Subject: RSTS/E and simh > From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; larryniven-l at larryniven-l.org > > Hi Guys, > > I used to mess about with RSTS/E when I was a kid, and even managed to > get into trouble with ASU and the folks that worked at the remote > sites... banned, basically. > > (I went on to work there years later after the PDP11s had been scrapped...) > > Anyhow, I've been running one I built from tape with simh for ages... > it's accessible on line via my bbs (telnet bbs.cortex-media.info) > > I've got an old, incomplete version of dungeon on there. I've found a > more complete version in Fortran. What is the best way to get the > files onto the emulated disk so I can build it? > > Would it be better to install decnet or use kermit or what? > > thanks, > > John > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been > transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. > > --Max Bialystock From david at hheng.plus.com Tue May 7 05:59:29 2013 From: david at hheng.plus.com (David Humphries) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 11:59:29 +0100 Subject: stepper motor on S100 buss terminator References: Message-ID: <000f01ce4b11$f30c7450$1103a8c0@HHE8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 3:34 AM Subject: Re: stepper motor on S100 buss terminator > On Mon, 6 May 2013, David Griffith wrote: > >> Can anyone understand why someone would attached a stepper motor to an >> S100 buss terminator board? See http://www.ebay.com/itm/230976941854 for >> headscratching goodness. > > The experimenter/builder didn't have a prototyping board but had a buss > terminator board handy? > The board is silk scrrened so its not a home built lashup, 5 wire on tyhe motor so it could be 4 pole star, but only 2 dfrive transitors ? > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3162/5805 - Release Date: 05/07/13 > From jwstephens at suti.com Tue May 7 07:27:07 2013 From: jwstephens at suti.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 07 May 2013 05:27:07 -0700 Subject: Apple I with high auction estimate on the block In-Reply-To: References: <518842CF.10103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5188F31B.30502@suti.com> On 5/7/2013 12:16 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> here we go again. I'm waiting for the breathless stories to start. >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/03/mac_original_sale_wozniak/ >> >> http://auction-team.de/new_highlights/2012_11/oa/001.html >> > look at the date in the second url and at the front page that points to > > History...some are easily taken in > > Dave Caroline > > i only pass on what they reported. YOu will note that the amounts are also off what the article said. I suspect it is the last sale of the unit being sold in the article. I did say "here we go again', to get others to report what they see about this. jim From evan at snarc.net Wed May 8 02:20:57 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 07:20:57 -0000 Subject: FW: Message-ID: <201305080642.r486gjWp043849@mx1.ezwind.net> http://chopper.sakura.ne.jp/7ur7ta.php From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 8 02:35:08 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:35:08 +0100 Subject: FW: In-Reply-To: <201305080642.r486gjWp043849@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201305080642.r486gjWp043849@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > REDACTED > Computer savvy people are not supposed to be compromised! Dave Caroline From b4 at gewt.net Wed May 8 03:06:51 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 08:06:51 -0000 Subject: FW: References: <201305080642.r486gjWp043849@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 May 2013, Dave Caroline wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> REDACTED >> > > Computer savvy people are not supposed to be compromised! > > Dave Caroline > What I find weirdest about this email is that I received it twice new. Today. Despite it being dated the 11th of April... -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 8 08:12:34 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 06:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HD Emulator for TRS-80s... Message-ID: This is really slick! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAUjSJfKi-4 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From sales at elecplus.com Wed May 8 08:55:20 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:55:20 -0500 Subject: Apple M0116 keyboard in Germany? Message-ID: <018501ce4bf3$ade2a150$09a7e3f0$@com> Does anyone in Germany have an Apple M0116 keyboard they want to sell? I have a customer that wanted to buy one for $20, but the shipping to Germany was prohibitive! Thank you! Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6308 - Release Date: 05/08/13 From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 8 09:06:19 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 15:06:19 +0100 Subject: Apple M0116 keyboard in Germany? In-Reply-To: <018501ce4bf3$ade2a150$09a7e3f0$@com> References: <018501ce4bf3$ade2a150$09a7e3f0$@com> Message-ID: On 8 May 2013 14:55, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Does anyone in Germany have an Apple M0116 keyboard they want to sell? > > I have a customer that wanted to buy one for $20, but the shipping to > Germany was prohibitive! I believe that I have a spare Apple Extended II in the garage, with the German QWERTZ layout. Happy to part with that, if it would be of interest to them. Shipping from the UK to .DE wouldn't be too onerous. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From earl at baugh.org Wed May 8 12:03:43 2013 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 13:03:43 -0400 Subject: Source for replacement parts? Message-ID: I'm looking for a part for a Mac Studio display (and yes, I know this doesn't qualify as "classic" but I'm trying to find a good overall solution for this type of repair). The part that failed is a simple piece of metal in a hinge which seems fairly well designed for replacement. However, I've been unable to find any sources for the particular part, Apple, etc. don't seem to have anything available. I do see some sites that have the entire hinge assembly available in the $18-$20 range, but I've been able to pick up entire monitors of this type for $25, so this really doesn't seem to make sense to pay this much for just the hinge when I could get a full set of spares (or even yet ANOTHER working monitor with the same issue). I'm wondering how people solve "spare/parts" issues like this. I've posted something to http://www.shapeways.com/ to see if someone would model the existing part, which I could then get them to fabricate. Not sure if that's going to be cost effective either (unless I order some quantity and sell extras with a mark up...) Earl p.s. A big thanks for the advise on the lubrication for the floppy drives. I ordered some of the Drislide which works excellently. A simple cleaning job with straight isopropyl alcohol, a couple drops, and all three floppy drives are now working as good as new... From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 8 12:24:48 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 18:24:48 +0100 Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As one who makes one offs for replacements of antiques, On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 6:03 PM, Earl Baugh wrote: > I'm looking for a part for a Mac Studio display (and yes, I know this > doesn't qualify as "classic" but I'm trying to find a good overall > solution for this type of repair). The part that failed is a simple > piece of metal in a hinge which seems fairly well designed for > replacement. However, I've been unable to find any sources for the > particular part, Apple, etc. don't seem to have anything available. > > I do see some sites that have the entire hinge assembly available in > the $18-$20 range, but I've been able to pick up entire monitors of As one who makes one offs for replacements of odd parts, I can say $18-$20 does not buy much time, tooling for some production is another kettle of fish. I would just buy the spares if available or get out a file and electric drill and make something. Dave Caroline http://gears.archivist.info/ From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 8 12:43:04 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 13:43:04 -0400 Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB15030-8DC5-4F73-847A-9D5A8342D974@gmail.com> On May 8, 2013, at 1:24 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > As one who makes one offs for replacements of antiques, > On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 6:03 PM, Earl Baugh wrote: >> I'm looking for a part for a Mac Studio display (and yes, I know this >> doesn't qualify as "classic" but I'm trying to find a good overall >> solution for this type of repair). The part that failed is a simple >> piece of metal in a hinge which seems fairly well designed for >> replacement. However, I've been unable to find any sources for the >> particular part, Apple, etc. don't seem to have anything available. >> >> I do see some sites that have the entire hinge assembly available in >> the $18-$20 range, but I've been able to pick up entire monitors of > > As one who makes one offs for replacements of odd parts, > I can say $18-$20 does not buy much time, tooling for some production > is another kettle of fish. > I would just buy the spares if available or get out a file and > electric drill and make something. A Dremel is a very effective tool for modifying bits of metal and plastic to fit things. Sometimes a little crude, but if you're just looking for something functional, it is handy to have around. I've been meaning to get a new one for a long time; I'd definitely recommend getting a corded model, because at least 10 years ago they ate rechargeable batteries like popcorn. - Dave From sales at elecplus.com Wed May 8 12:44:03 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 12:44:03 -0500 Subject: 3174 drives and original IBM diskette Message-ID: <039701ce4c13$a18ee830$e4acb890$@com> I have qty 2 1.2 drives and one 2.4 drive, pulled from old 3174 controller. These are still in their housing. No controller to test, but they should work fine. Also included is the original IBM 5.25" floppy 1.2MB 3174 LVL A5.6, hand written on it is Primary 3174/A4166. Any takers? _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6308 - Release Date: 05/08/13 From bearnold at outlook.com Wed May 8 13:36:07 2013 From: bearnold at outlook.com (BE Arnold) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 14:36:07 -0400 Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: <4BB15030-8DC5-4F73-847A-9D5A8342D974@gmail.com> References: <4BB15030-8DC5-4F73-847A-9D5A8342D974@gmail.com> Message-ID: >A Dremel is a very effective tool for modifying bits of metal You can borrow mine if you need one Earl. I have a relatively new one with a clamp and drill press attachments. I just want them back. :) (Christmas presents, my wife would kill us both) Thanks, Brad Arnold President & Cofounder, Atlanta Historical Computing Society http://www.ATLHCS.org On May 8, 2013, at 1:47 PM, "David Riley" wrote: > On May 8, 2013, at 1:24 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > >> As one who makes one offs for replacements of antiques, >> On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 6:03 PM, Earl Baugh wrote: >>> I'm looking for a part for a Mac Studio display (and yes, I know this >>> doesn't qualify as "classic" but I'm trying to find a good overall >>> solution for this type of repair). The part that failed is a simple >>> piece of metal in a hinge which seems fairly well designed for >>> replacement. However, I've been unable to find any sources for the >>> particular part, Apple, etc. don't seem to have anything available. >>> >>> I do see some sites that have the entire hinge assembly available in >>> the $18-$20 range, but I've been able to pick up entire monitors of >> >> As one who makes one offs for replacements of odd parts, >> I can say $18-$20 does not buy much time, tooling for some production >> is another kettle of fish. >> I would just buy the spares if available or get out a file and >> electric drill and make something. > > A Dremel is a very effective tool for modifying bits of metal and > plastic to fit things. Sometimes a little crude, but if you're > just looking for something functional, it is handy to have around. > I've been meaning to get a new one for a long time; I'd definitely > recommend getting a corded model, because at least 10 years ago > they ate rechargeable batteries like popcorn. > > > - Dave > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 8 14:19:42 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 12:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: <4BB15030-8DC5-4F73-847A-9D5A8342D974@gmail.com> References: <4BB15030-8DC5-4F73-847A-9D5A8342D974@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130508121228.L84073@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 May 2013, David Riley wrote: > A Dremel is a very effective tool for modifying bits of metal and > plastic to fit things. Sometimes a little crude, but if you're > just looking for something functional, it is handy to have around. > I've been meaning to get a new one for a long time; I'd definitely > recommend getting a corded model, because at least 10 years ago > they ate rechargeable batteries like popcorn. 10 years ago??!? 10 years ago, they were using NiCd batteries. Assume less than a minute of full power per charge. NOW, they use Lithium Ion. If you don't think that there is a difference, then you haven't tried them. Besdies Dremel themselves, there are as many makers of imitation dremels as there are PC makers. Most are a bit more awkward and clumsy than the real thing. Consider Craftsman Nextec (lithium Ion), or even Harbor Freight ($24.99 on sale for either corded or Lithium Ion imitation dremel with battery and flex shaft accessory!) From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 8 14:28:21 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 15:28:21 -0400 Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: <20130508121228.L84073@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BB15030-8DC5-4F73-847A-9D5A8342D974@gmail.com> <20130508121228.L84073@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On May 8, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 8 May 2013, David Riley wrote: >> A Dremel is a very effective tool for modifying bits of metal and >> plastic to fit things. Sometimes a little crude, but if you're >> just looking for something functional, it is handy to have around. >> I've been meaning to get a new one for a long time; I'd definitely >> recommend getting a corded model, because at least 10 years ago >> they ate rechargeable batteries like popcorn. > > 10 years ago??!? > 10 years ago, they were using NiCd batteries. Assume less than a minute > of full power per charge. > > NOW, they use Lithium Ion. If you don't think that there is a difference, > then you haven't tried them. Well, I haven't tried them. But I still use my cordless drill which uses NiCd batteries, and I'm on only its second pair of batteries in about 10 years. I'm willing to believe that the cheap charger that comes with the Dremel was murdering the batteries, just like the cheap charger that came with my drill was (getting DeWalt's higher-end "smart" charger made a world of difference and even revived the dead ones for about a year). > Besdies Dremel themselves, there are as many makers of imitation dremels > as there are PC makers. Most are a bit more awkward and clumsy > than the real thing. Consider Craftsman Nextec (lithium Ion), or even > Harbor Freight ($24.99 on sale for either corded or Lithium Ion imitation > dremel with battery and flex shaft accessory!) I still prefer having a corded model available. For drills, I have both, because there are plenty of circumstances where a cordless drill is just essential. I suppose you could make the same case for the Dremel, but I only ever used it at the workbench, so not for my use cases. I probably should have led with that. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 8 14:31:29 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 12:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130508121104.A84073@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 8 May 2013, Earl Baugh wrote: > piece of metal in a hinge which seems fairly well designed for > . . .; > I do see some sites that have the entire hinge assembly available in > the $18-$20 range, but I've been able to pick up entire monitors of > this type for $25, so this really doesn't seem to make sense to pay > this much for just the hinge when I could get a full set of spares (or > even yet ANOTHER working monitor with the same issue). I can buy a used car for less than the price of a replacement engine, transmission, or sometimes even FUEL PUMP! OK, OK, I once bought a used car that cost less than the clutch disk that it needed. > posted something to http://www.shapeways.com/ to see if someone would > model the existing part, which I could then get them to fabricate. > Not sure if that's going to be cost effective either (unless I order > some quantity and sell extras with a mark up...) If it's a simple part of readily available materials and less than an hour's work, then you might be able to get one made for less than $50 or MAYBE less than $25! (peopel with skills sometimes value their time) If you don't have a machine shop, start making one. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From sales at elecplus.com Wed May 8 14:34:04 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 14:34:04 -0500 Subject: 3174 drives and original IBM diskette In-Reply-To: <039701ce4c13$a18ee830$e4acb890$@com> References: <039701ce4c13$a18ee830$e4acb890$@com> Message-ID: <00a801ce4c23$002e3e40$008abac0$@com> The 2.4mb floppy has been claimed. Anyone want the others, and the original diskette? Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 12:44 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: 3174 drives and original IBM diskette I have qty 2 1.2 drives and one 2.4 drive, pulled from old 3174 controller. These are still in their housing. No controller to test, but they should work fine. Also included is the original IBM 5.25" floppy 1.2MB 3174 LVL A5.6, hand written on it is Primary 3174/A4166. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6308 - Release Date: 05/08/13 From sales at elecplus.com Wed May 8 14:39:37 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 14:39:37 -0500 Subject: Micropolis 1325 and DEC RZ28-VA Message-ID: <00af01ce4c23$c6630eb0$53292c10$@com> If you are looking for these, Bonnie Bosworth is selling them. No idea on pricing, and not affiliated with seller. bosworthbon at aol.com I will say to put everything in writing, and get the 90 day warranty in writing, before you send $, as I have heard some rumors. Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6308 - Release Date: 05/08/13 From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 8 14:51:04 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 12:51:04 -0700 Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <518AACA8.3050404@jwsss.com> I have two of the things, both bought because the hinge was shot. Seems like someone should have sued apple for such a piece of crap. Anyway, I seldom see them with an intact hinge. I doubt one made by a "printer" or such would stand a chance, and would be susceptible to the same design flaw as the cast ones they used. I suspect it worked well as a machined part, but the attempt to drive down the price resulted in all their users having broken monitors. A friend who I asked about printing said that he could get onseys done by a machine shop as cheap as we could print the part. That doesn't help you, but it has discouraged me from assuming that all weird parts could be printed, and that on-off ones would be expensive no matter where they come from. jim On 5/8/2013 10:03 AM, Earl Baugh wrote: > I'm looking for a part for a Mac Studio display (and yes, I know this > doesn't qualify as "classic" but I'm trying to find a good overall > solution for this type of repair). The part that failed is a simple > piece of metal in a hinge which seems fairly well designed for > replacement. However, I've been unable to find any sources for the > particular part, Apple, etc. don't seem to have anything available. > > I do see some sites that have the entire hinge assembly available in > the $18-$20 range, but I've been able to pick up entire monitors of > this type for $25, so this really doesn't seem to make sense to pay > this much for just the hinge when I could get a full set of spares (or > even yet ANOTHER working monitor with the same issue). > > I'm wondering how people solve "spare/parts" issues like this. I've > posted something to http://www.shapeways.com/ to see if someone would > model the existing part, which I could then get them to fabricate. > Not sure if that's going to be cost effective either (unless I order > some quantity and sell extras with a mark up...) > > Earl > > p.s. A big thanks for the advise on the lubrication for the floppy > drives. I ordered some of the Drislide which works excellently. A > simple cleaning job with straight isopropyl alcohol, a couple drops, > and all three floppy drives are now working as good as new... > > From sales at elecplus.com Wed May 8 15:22:26 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 15:22:26 -0500 Subject: recyclers who will save things for me Message-ID: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> I have 4 recyclers now in TX who will save old things for me. They won't save everything, so I have to email them lists. I can put as much as I want on the lists, since their software will flag anything that comes in that matches my want to buy list. Please note that since these will be coming from R2 certified recycle centers, all parts must stay in the US. They will not be tested for the most part, but will be power on tested for whole units. They do not test individual floppies, etc. So my request is, please send me lists of what you want, and what you are willing to pay, including shipping, and I will see if I can save some oldies but goldies from the crushers. If you want software, please specify the format (CD, size of diskette, etc.) and if it is version specific. Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6308 - Release Date: 05/08/13 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 8 15:35:10 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 16:35:10 -0400 Subject: recyclers who will save things for me In-Reply-To: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> References: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have 4 recyclers now in TX who will save old things for me. They won't > save everything, so I have to email them lists. Wow, Cindy, that's great. For me, non-PC keyboards are important - pre-ADB "Classic Mac" keyboards (like the one I bought from you already) or Amiga, especially Amiga 1000, keyboards in particular. I'm big into Commodore, so anything pre-C-64 is also interesting (PETs, VIC-20s, disk drives, some printers)... and I know I'm not alone there, so even if I pass, these are popular items that someone will want. Old external disk drives (single-sided Mac and any Amiga) are also useful and interesting. -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Wed May 8 15:40:30 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 15:40:30 -0500 Subject: recyclers who will save things for me In-Reply-To: References: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> Message-ID: <010c01ce4c2c$47bd8dc0$d738a940$@com> I have the Apple II floppy drives, single and dual, any use there? I will pass your list on. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 3:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: recyclers who will save things for me On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have 4 recyclers now in TX who will save old things for me. They > won't save everything, so I have to email them lists. Wow, Cindy, that's great. For me, non-PC keyboards are important - pre-ADB "Classic Mac" keyboards (like the one I bought from you already) or Amiga, especially Amiga 1000, keyboards in particular. I'm big into Commodore, so anything pre-C-64 is also interesting (PETs, VIC-20s, disk drives, some printers)... and I know I'm not alone there, so even if I pass, these are popular items that someone will want. Old external disk drives (single-sided Mac and any Amiga) are also useful and interesting. -ethan ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6308 - Release Date: 05/08/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6308 - Release Date: 05/08/13 From b4 at gewt.net Wed May 8 15:48:56 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 20:48:56 -0000 Subject: recyclers who will save things for me References: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 May 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > I have 4 recyclers now in TX who will save old things for me. They won't > save everything, so I have to email them lists. > > I can put as much as I want on the lists, since their software will flag > anything that comes in that matches my want to buy list. > > Please note that since these will be coming from R2 certified recycle > centers, all parts must stay in the US. > > They will not be tested for the most part, but will be power on tested for > whole units. They do not test individual floppies, etc. > > > > So my request is, please send me lists of what you want, and what you are > willing to pay, including shipping, and I will see if I can save some oldies > but goldies from the crushers. If you want software, please specify the > format (CD, size of diskette, etc.) and if it is version specific. > I could use some AUI to ethernet transceivers. I have difficulty finding them cheaply for some reason. Sync-on-green or SGI monitors would be nice too if they're not absurdly expensive to ship and are reasonably priced. > > > Cindy Croxton > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6308 - Release Date: 05/08/13 > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 8 15:24:22 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 21:24:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: from "Earl Baugh" at May 8, 13 01:03:43 pm Message-ID: > > I'm looking for a part for a Mac Studio display (and yes, I know this > doesn't qualify as "classic" but I'm trying to find a good overall > solution for this type of repair). The part that failed is a simple > piece of metal in a hinge which seems fairly well designed for In what way has it failed? What does this part do? Cna you describe it in more detail (shape, is it flat, bent, curved, etc). Most fo the time for soemthing like that I just make a new one mycself. If possible I use part of the broken thing (e.g. cut the hinge off and use that if that's still good). I don't bother with computer modelling or anything like that. Just grap some metal and sturt cutting and drilling it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 8 14:37:23 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 20:37:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: stepper motor on S100 buss terminator In-Reply-To: <000f01ce4b11$f30c7450$1103a8c0@HHE8> from "David Humphries" at May 7, 13 11:59:29 am Message-ID: > The board is silk scrrened so its not a home built lashup, 5 wire on tyhe > motor so it could be 4 pole star, but only 2 dfrive transitors ? I thought the TO220 packages o nthe PCB were most probably 3-terminal regualtors (7805-things) to supply the terminators. The stepper driver is those ICs hung off wires on the solder side. And it's quite possible there's a driver IC amongst them. -tony From arrowrunner at gmail.com Wed May 8 15:59:23 2013 From: arrowrunner at gmail.com (Beau Walker) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 16:59:23 -0400 Subject: recyclers who will save things for me In-Reply-To: References: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> Message-ID: I would be interested in baby AT cases with power supplies, depending on what they looked like. On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > On Wed, 8 May 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > >> I have 4 recyclers now in TX who will save old things for me. They won't >> save everything, so I have to email them lists. >> >> I can put as much as I want on the lists, since their software will flag >> anything that comes in that matches my want to buy list. >> >> Please note that since these will be coming from R2 certified recycle >> centers, all parts must stay in the US. >> >> They will not be tested for the most part, but will be power on tested for >> whole units. They do not test individual floppies, etc. >> >> >> >> So my request is, please send me lists of what you want, and what you are >> willing to pay, including shipping, and I will see if I can save some >> oldies >> but goldies from the crushers. If you want software, please specify the >> format (CD, size of diskette, etc.) and if it is version specific. >> >> > I could use some AUI to ethernet transceivers. I have difficulty finding > them cheaply for some reason. > > Sync-on-green or SGI monitors would be nice too if they're not absurdly > expensive to ship and are reasonably priced. > > > >> >> Cindy Croxton >> >> _____ >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6308 - Release Date: 05/08/13 >> >> >> > -- > Cory Smelosky > http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff > http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments > -- Sent from My Hippopotamus From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 8 16:00:55 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 17:00:55 -0400 Subject: recyclers who will save things for me In-Reply-To: <010c01ce4c2c$47bd8dc0$d738a940$@com> References: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> <010c01ce4c2c$47bd8dc0$d738a940$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have the Apple II floppy drives, single and dual, any use there? For me, no. I have a pretty good stack of those already. it's the 19-pin Mac drives that I could use a couple of. I had one long ago, but the drive mech died then a friend lost the cable from it that I loaned him, etc., etc. A 128K Mac with only an internal drive is a sad thing. :-/ > I will pass your list on. Thanks! It's unlikely because they were unpopular, but a specific Amiga I'm casually looking for is the CDTV - the one in the black "audio component" case. It's essentially an Amiga 500 with CD-ROM that looks like a VCR or stereo receiver. I had one that was stolen (fully paid for by insurance) but that I never actually replaced. I have a CD32 hooked up at home right now, but the CDTV is an interesting footnote in Commodore's history. If you didn't spot the Commodore logo, you probably wouldn't notice it was a computer if you saw it in a stack of stuff. -ethan From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 8 16:07:13 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 17:07:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: recyclers who will save things for me In-Reply-To: References: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> Message-ID: <201305082107.RAA20633@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> So my request is, please send me lists of what you want, [...] > I could use some AUI to ethernet transceivers. On this list, you might want to specify what media. Most people are likely to assume you want the other side to be twisted pair (which is only kinda-sorta-mostly Ethernet...), but with this crowd that's not the safest of assumptions! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 8 16:46:46 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 14:46:46 -0700 Subject: recyclers who will save things for me In-Reply-To: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> References: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> Message-ID: <518AC7C6.9040909@sydex.com> On 05/08/2013 01:22 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have 4 recyclers now in TX who will save old things for me. They won't > save everything, so I have to email them lists. > > I can put as much as I want on the lists, since their software will flag > anything that comes in that matches my want to buy list. > > Please note that since these will be coming from R2 certified recycle > centers, all parts must stay in the US. I'm always on the lookout for a Durango Systems "Poppy" PC. It's been many years since I've seen one. Thanks, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 8 16:53:54 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 14:53:54 -0700 Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: <4BB15030-8DC5-4F73-847A-9D5A8342D974@gmail.com> References: <4BB15030-8DC5-4F73-847A-9D5A8342D974@gmail.com> Message-ID: <518AC972.7080408@sydex.com> On 05/08/2013 10:43 AM, David Riley wrote: > A Dremel is a very effective tool for modifying bits of metal and > plastic to fit things. Judging from what I've seen in the way of Dremel hack-work on sheet metal, I'd recommend the addition of an inexpensive (ca. $10) hand nibbler for sheet metal. It makes very nice looking holes. The last time I checked, you could get one from Micro Mark, Radio Shack and JDR: http://www.micromark.com/nibbling-cutter,7761.html --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 8 16:54:37 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 14:54:37 -0700 Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <518AC99D.4090809@jwsss.com> On 5/8/2013 1:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm looking for a part for a Mac Studio display (and yes, I know this >> doesn't qualify as "classic" but I'm trying to find a good overall >> solution for this type of repair). The part that failed is a simple >> piece of metal in a hinge which seems fairly well designed for > In what way has it failed? What does this part do? Cna you describe it in > more detail (shape, is it flat, bent, curved, etc). > > Most fo the time for soemthing like that I just make a new one mycself. > If possible I use part of the broken thing (e.g. cut the hinge off and > use that if that's still good). > > I don't bother with computer modelling or anything like that. Just grap > some metal and sturt cutting and drilling it. > > -tony > > It isn't feasible with this part, or not wise. It is a badly cast part made of probably pot metal that someone used as a machined part. It also has a preloaded very heavy spring which allows the hinge to work, but retracts the stand back into the back of the monitor for stowage. What happens on the 2 I own and several I've seen is that the spring is too strong for the pot metal and between the forces on the parts from that and the pressure where the spring applies force on the part which is in the back of the monitor, you end up with a broken part, usually the part in the back of the monitor, and the stand which is a plastic part with part of the hinge in it loose. I suspect as I previously said, a reasonable part made from steel, and not cast probably worked, this crappy cast part doesn't. Even if you tried to use the part, it would break somewhere else. Better to use the pieces and a small drill mill and make a new one from a quarter inch or 3/8 inch piece of solid material. Omit the spring, it may be dangerous to reinstall, and just let the stand fold free. Jim From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed May 8 18:10:19 2013 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 16:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: recyclers who will save things for me In-Reply-To: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> Message-ID: <1368054619.91156.YahooMailClassic@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 5/8/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have 4 recyclers now in TX who will > save old things for me.? They won't > save everything, so I have to email them lists. > I collect terminals in general, but that's a rather large net to cast. One terminal I have been looking for specifically for quite some time is the Ann Arbor Ambassador. I'd love to find one of those. -Ian From arrowrunner at gmail.com Wed May 8 19:43:38 2013 From: arrowrunner at gmail.com (Beau Walker) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 20:43:38 -0400 Subject: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC boards for sale. Message-ID: Today I picked up about 180 or so of these boards. I believe they might be from the 60s or thereabouts. I couldn't find a datestamp on them but they don't use ICs. Instead it looks like they use the old gold-wired transistors. Not all of the boards are pictured but there were many duplicates so I probably got at least one of each kind. https://plus.google.com/photos/107294052056201862492/albums/5875735710367433393 In the same lot I picked up some DEC boards. These I would be looking to sell. They were tossed around and not handled properly so some may need repair or would just be for parts. https://plus.google.com/photos/107294052056201862492/albums/5875656381365913089 -- Sent from My Hippopotamus From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 8 20:54:46 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 18:54:46 -0700 Subject: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC boards for sale. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> On 05/08/2013 05:43 PM, Beau Walker wrote: > Today I picked up about 180 or so of these boards. I believe they might be > from the 60s or thereabouts. I couldn't find a datestamp on them but they > don't use ICs. Instead it looks like they use the old gold-wired > transistors. Not all of the boards are pictured but there were many > duplicates so I probably got at least one of each kind. > > https://plus.google.com/photos/107294052056201862492/albums/5875735710367433393 Can't say much about the purpose, right off, but the card cage, if it's part of the same lot (and it appears to be), contains some Solid State Scientific, Inc. (SSS) SCL 4000-series CMOS ICs with a date code of 1975. SSS persisted into the 1980s until it was purchased by the Penn Central holding company and merged with Sprague. So you've got a "not earlier than" benchmark. I wonder if these are part of some control or security system. Definitely not comptuer, given the date and technology. Kind of nice to see those little red mica caps again. --Chuck From arrowrunner at gmail.com Wed May 8 21:03:41 2013 From: arrowrunner at gmail.com (Beau Walker) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 22:03:41 -0400 Subject: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC boards for sale. In-Reply-To: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> References: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> Message-ID: Actually that board you called a card cage doesn't go with the rest. They don't fit and the contact spacing isn't right. Sorry about that that red herring. On May 8, 2013 9:58 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 05/08/2013 05:43 PM, Beau Walker wrote: > >> Today I picked up about 180 or so of these boards. I believe they might >> be >> from the 60s or thereabouts. I couldn't find a datestamp on them but they >> don't use ICs. Instead it looks like they use the old gold-wired >> transistors. Not all of the boards are pictured but there were many >> duplicates so I probably got at least one of each kind. >> >> https://plus.google.com/**photos/107294052056201862492/** >> albums/5875735710367433393 >> > > Can't say much about the purpose, right off, but the card cage, if it's > part of the same lot (and it appears to be), contains some Solid State > Scientific, Inc. (SSS) SCL 4000-series CMOS ICs with a date code of 1975. > SSS persisted into the 1980s until it was purchased by the Penn Central > holding company and merged with Sprague. > > So you've got a "not earlier than" benchmark. > > I wonder if these are part of some control or security system. Definitely > not comptuer, given the date and technology. Kind of nice to see those > little red mica caps again. > > --Chuck > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 8 21:09:51 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 19:09:51 -0700 Subject: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC boards for sale. In-Reply-To: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> References: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6E331F75-C625-4B51-98CD-7A370442C2ED@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 May 8, at 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 05/08/2013 05:43 PM, Beau Walker wrote: >> Today I picked up about 180 or so of these boards. I believe they >> might be >> from the 60s or thereabouts. I couldn't find a datestamp on them >> but they >> don't use ICs. Instead it looks like they use the old gold-wired >> transistors. Not all of the boards are pictured but there were many >> duplicates so I probably got at least one of each kind. >> >> https://plus.google.com/photos/107294052056201862492/albums/ >> 5875735710367433393 > > Can't say much about the purpose, right off, but the card cage, if > it's part of the same lot (and it appears to be), contains some > Solid State Scientific, Inc. (SSS) SCL 4000-series CMOS ICs with a > date code of 1975. SSS persisted into the 1980s until it was > purchased by the Penn Central holding company and merged with Sprague. > > So you've got a "not earlier than" benchmark. > > I wonder if these are part of some control or security system. > Definitely not comptuer, given the date and technology. Kind of > nice to see those little red mica caps again. I'd say the card cage is of a different era than the boards, the boards look to be of early-60's vintage. Looks like a date code of 6252 or 6232 on one of the power transistors. There are likely to be date codes on other parts such as caps, trimmer resistors, transistors, etc. From tom94022 at comcast.net Wed May 8 22:03:26 2013 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 20:03:26 -0700 Subject: recyclers who will save things for me In-Reply-To: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> References: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> Message-ID: Hi Cindy: Decided to send this to the mail list instead of direct on the chance someone on the list might have or know of the things I am looking for. I am looking for and will pay for transportation and a reasonable fee on Memorex 1270 Terminal Control Unit (used on IBM mainframes as an alternative to 270x TCUs Memorex 620 (2311-11 equivalent), 630 (2311 equivalent), 660 (2314 equivalent) or 3660 (2314 equivalent) disk drives or the DEC OEM versions, the RP01, RP02 or RPR02 disk drive. Tom > -----Original Message----- > From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus [mailto:sales at elecplus.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 1:22 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: recyclers who will save things for me > > I have 4 recyclers now in TX who will save old things for me. They won't > save everything, so I have to email them lists. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Wed May 8 22:11:11 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 03:11:11 +0000 Subject: [cctalk] RE: IBM 2.88 mb microcode floppies In-Reply-To: <5189A579.4010807@neurotica.com> References: <5189623F.5040902@jwsss.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E750F033B4@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <5189A579.4010807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <01060A35-4594-419F-A47D-045E3E496909@mail2.cu-portland.edu> So the next question is, anyone here have a CUT mode IBM terminal suitable for configuring a 3174 that they'd be willing to sell for a sub-$100 price? :) Thanks in advance! -Ben From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 8 22:33:35 2013 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 22:33:35 -0500 Subject: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC boards for sale. In-Reply-To: <6E331F75-C625-4B51-98CD-7A370442C2ED@cs.ubc.ca> References: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> <6E331F75-C625-4B51-98CD-7A370442C2ED@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: It looks like the DEC boards are 4 M7264s LSI11), a M7270 (LSI2), 2 M8044 (MSV11-DD), and a few compatables. Paul On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 2013 May 8, at 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 05/08/2013 05:43 PM, Beau Walker wrote: >> >>> Today I picked up about 180 or so of these boards. I believe they might >>> be >>> from the 60s or thereabouts. I couldn't find a datestamp on them but >>> they >>> don't use ICs. Instead it looks like they use the old gold-wired >>> transistors. Not all of the boards are pictured but there were many >>> duplicates so I probably got at least one of each kind. >>> >>> https://plus.google.com/**photos/107294052056201862492/** >>> albums/5875735710367433393 >>> >> >> Can't say much about the purpose, right off, but the card cage, if it's >> part of the same lot (and it appears to be), contains some Solid State >> Scientific, Inc. (SSS) SCL 4000-series CMOS ICs with a date code of 1975. >> SSS persisted into the 1980s until it was purchased by the Penn Central >> holding company and merged with Sprague. >> >> So you've got a "not earlier than" benchmark. >> >> I wonder if these are part of some control or security system. Definitely >> not comptuer, given the date and technology. Kind of nice to see those >> little red mica caps again. >> > > I'd say the card cage is of a different era than the boards, the boards > look to be of early-60's vintage. Looks like a date code of 6252 or 6232 on > one of the power transistors. There are likely to be date codes on other > parts such as caps, trimmer resistors, transistors, etc. > From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 8 23:10:15 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 21:10:15 -0700 Subject: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC boards for sale. In-Reply-To: References: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> Message-ID: <518B21A7.2030206@sydex.com> On 05/08/2013 07:03 PM, Beau Walker wrote: > Actually that board you called a card cage doesn't go with the rest. They > don't fit and the contact spacing isn't right. Sorry about that that red > herring. Okay, that threw me off the trail. Scratch that guess. The odd mounting of the TO-5 transistors points to a fairly old board. but I have no idea what the boards might be to. Perhaps the mounting will ring a bell with someone here. The telco manufacturers had some pretty odd ways of mounting transistors, but I don't know if these are them. I wonder if the mounting is an approach to anti-vibration; that might point to a military application. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 8 23:53:01 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 22:53:01 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <4D6979C7-7015-4074-9EB8-940312246BDC@gmail.com> References: <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <2338051.xHuEB6Du7t@i5.sytse.net> <2E879D27-C150-488F-8556-B914003F4EBC@gmail.com> <517D385F.7010000@jetnet.ab.ca> <4D6979C7-7015-4074-9EB8-940312246BDC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <518B2BAD.4020904@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/28/2013 11:44 AM, David Riley wrote: > Indeed! And for other fun little projects. I got the DE0 & DE1 boards in Tuesday. I was playing around with getting software to work with my computer, what a pain. Version #9 is the only version that works for me. Now that I got VIM as text editor and Internet stuff turned off, it is almost useful to compile with it under windows. Help is real help, not some "watch this demo on how to ...". > - Dave > Today's lesson, figure how to import the pin assignments for the DE1 board and re-name some of them. ( Clock, Push Button switches and some leds ) Ben. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu May 9 00:57:31 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 02:57:31 -0300 Subject: Mac G3 requests Message-ID: <545E37387E054438842158132A55FB8C@tababook> Is it old enough to be considered classic? :o) Maybe someone has these parts floating around... :o) - Any G3/G4 upgrade beyond 300 MHz - Radeon 7000 PCI for MAC or PC (I can reflash it to MAC firmware) - Wings or preferably Bordeaux video I/O card - Zip Drive faceplate, with metal support I do love my G3, I'd like to top it with better hardware :) Mine is the 300MHz basic, with no video input personality card, and 300MHz processor module. I was able to upgrade it to 768MB of ram, and I have a 36GB SCSI hard drive. Thanks Alexandre --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 9 01:14:33 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 May 2013 00:14:33 -0600 Subject: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC boards for sale. In-Reply-To: <518B21A7.2030206@sydex.com> References: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> <518B21A7.2030206@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <518B21A7.2030206 at sydex.com>, Chuck Guzis writes: > The odd mounting of the TO-5 transistors points to a fairly old board. They all seem to have "CSC" on them. Computer Sciences Corporation? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From david at hheng.plus.com Wed May 8 19:17:54 2013 From: david at hheng.plus.com (David Humphries) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 01:17:54 +0100 Subject: stepper motor on S100 buss terminator References: Message-ID: <003101ce4c4a$a7969e80$1103a8c0@HHE8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 8:37 PM Subject: Re: stepper motor on S100 buss terminator >> The board is silk scrrened so its not a home built lashup, 5 wire on >> tyhe >> motor so it could be 4 pole star, but only 2 dfrive transitors ? > > I thought the TO220 packages o nthe PCB were most probably 3-terminal > regualtors (7805-things) to supply the terminators. The stepper driver is > those ICs hung off wires on the solder side. And it's quite possible > there's a driver IC amongst them. > > -tony > > Arrr ,that will teach me to look before I type, haddent spotted the pic > of the other side DOHH DaveH > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3162/5808 - Release Date: 05/08/13 > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 9 01:25:40 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 23:25:40 -0700 Subject: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC boards for sale. In-Reply-To: References: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> <518B21A7.2030206@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2013 May 8, at 11:14 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <518B21A7.2030206 at sydex.com>, > Chuck Guzis writes: > >> The odd mounting of the TO-5 transistors points to a fairly old >> board. > > They all seem to have "CSC" on them. > > Computer Sciences Corporation? I was wondering about that, but haven't yet found anything to suggest they made hardware, just software. Their (current) logo does not match, but of course the logo could have changed. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu May 9 02:44:21 2013 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 00:44:21 -0700 Subject: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC boards for sale. In-Reply-To: References: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> <518B21A7.2030206@sydex.com> Message-ID: I think the Printronix boards are from line printers. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu May 9 03:56:41 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 05:56:41 -0300 Subject: recyclers who will save things for me References: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> Message-ID: <0832A7EBB9CC47AAAF5058645C982DB1@tababook> >For me, non-PC keyboards are important - pre-ADB "Classic Mac" >keyboards (like the one I bought from you already) or Amiga, >especially Amiga 1000, keyboards in particular. I'm big into I'm still looking for a set of keys and coils for the A2000 keyboard :o( (they are cheaper to ship than the complete keyboard. Shipping from UK is CHEAPER than from US now that USPS raised prices...) From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Thu May 9 07:06:33 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 05:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Control Data 9747 Message-ID: <1368101193.91803.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Has anyone ever heard of this drive model? It looks just like the 9746 in the CDC brochure. Maybe a custom interface? I cannot find any specs or info for it. http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2775.JPG http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2776.JPG http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2777.JPG http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2778.JPG http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2780.JPG http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2781.JPG http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2782.JPG It was still in its shipping box and by the looks of it, I don't believe it was ever used. Brian. From arrowrunner at gmail.com Thu May 9 08:26:14 2013 From: arrowrunner at gmail.com (Beau Walker) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 09:26:14 -0400 Subject: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC boards for sale. In-Reply-To: References: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> <6E331F75-C625-4B51-98CD-7A370442C2ED@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Here's what I've got, at least I think these are the only actual DEC cards. DIGITAL M8045 Memory Board DIGITAL M8045 Memory Board M7264s LSI11 Flip Chip Board M7264s LSI11 Flip Chip Board M7264s LSI11 Flip Chip Board M7264s LSI11 Flip Chip Board 8009, memory board? - Green handled board DIGITAL M8186 CPU Processor Board MSC 4601 303-0171 Memory board? White handles, one is half broken DAC-II board, Andromeda Systems? Has 4 DAC80-CBI-V Chips These two are pretty much considered sold: The red handled one says M7954 on the back of the PCB. It has 737C stamped into the back of the handle. The white handled one says 700-0086 and NDLV-IIJ/2 on the back. It has Calmark 110 on the handle. The front of the board says netcom products, inc NDLV-IIJ/2 700-00871 I have an offer on the 2 large and 1 small prototyping board, still awaiting payment though. On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > It looks like the DEC boards are 4 M7264s LSI11), a M7270 (LSI2), 2 M8044 > (MSV11-DD), and a few compatables. > > Paul > > > On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > > On 2013 May 8, at 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > On 05/08/2013 05:43 PM, Beau Walker wrote: > >> > >>> Today I picked up about 180 or so of these boards. I believe they > might > >>> be > >>> from the 60s or thereabouts. I couldn't find a datestamp on them but > >>> they > >>> don't use ICs. Instead it looks like they use the old gold-wired > >>> transistors. Not all of the boards are pictured but there were many > >>> duplicates so I probably got at least one of each kind. > >>> > >>> https://plus.google.com/**photos/107294052056201862492/** > >>> albums/5875735710367433393< > https://plus.google.com/photos/107294052056201862492/albums/5875735710367433393 > > > >>> > >> > >> Can't say much about the purpose, right off, but the card cage, if it's > >> part of the same lot (and it appears to be), contains some Solid State > >> Scientific, Inc. (SSS) SCL 4000-series CMOS ICs with a date code of > 1975. > >> SSS persisted into the 1980s until it was purchased by the Penn Central > >> holding company and merged with Sprague. > >> > >> So you've got a "not earlier than" benchmark. > >> > >> I wonder if these are part of some control or security system. > Definitely > >> not comptuer, given the date and technology. Kind of nice to see those > >> little red mica caps again. > >> > > > > I'd say the card cage is of a different era than the boards, the boards > > look to be of early-60's vintage. Looks like a date code of 6252 or 6232 > on > > one of the power transistors. There are likely to be date codes on other > > parts such as caps, trimmer resistors, transistors, etc. > > > -- Sent from My Hippopotamus From jthecman at netscape.net Thu May 9 09:30:10 2013 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 10:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: recyclers who will save things for me In-Reply-To: References: <00ec01ce4c29$c1896460$449c2d20$@com> <010c01ce4c2c$47bd8dc0$d738a940$@com> Message-ID: <8D01AD8D7C929E4-110C-30633@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, May 8, 2013 4:21 pm Subject: Re: recyclers who will save things for me On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have the Apple II floppy drives, single and dual, any use there? For me, no. I have a pretty good stack of those already. it's the 19-pin Mac drives that I could use a couple of. I had one long ago, but the drive mech died then a friend lost the cable from it that I loaned him, etc., etc. A 128K Mac with only an internal drive is a sad thing. :-/ > I will pass your list on. Thanks! It's unlikely because they were unpopular, but a specific Amiga I'm casually looking for is the CDTV - the one in the black "audio component" case. It's essentially an Amiga 500 with CD-ROM that looks like a VCR or stereo receiver. I had one that was stolen (fully paid for by insurance) but that I never actually replaced. I have a CD32 hooked up at home right now, but the CDTV is an interesting footnote in Commodore's history. If you didn't spot the Commodore logo, you probably wouldn't notice it was a computer if you saw it in a stack of stuff. -ethan I have two if the CDTV units along with a mouse, external 3.5 drive, controllers, and some game CD's. Still looking for one of the black monitors sold with it. JK From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 9 09:49:28 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 10:49:28 -0400 Subject: Commodore CDTV (was Re: recyclers who will save things for me) Message-ID: On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 10:30 AM, wrote: > On Wed, May 8, 2013 4:21 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ... a specific Amiga I'm casually looking for is the CDTV... essentially an >> Amiga 500 with CD-ROM that looks like a VCR or stereo receiver. > > I have two if the CDTV units along with a mouse, external 3.5 drive, > controllers, and some game CD's. Still looking for one of the black monitors > sold with it. I never got any of the accessories. What I did with mine was use it as an audio CD player, a CD+G player, and the first place I did any CD-ROM fiddling. The way I used it without all the accessories was to boot it off of a regular white external Amiga floppy drive with a Workbench disk that had PARnet and the "netkeys-handler". I connected it to my regular A1000, and PARnet/netkeys handled the transition and input event traffic when I moved the mouse pointer off the right of the A1000 screen to jump to the CDTV Workbench screen. I could then use my A1000's mouse and keyboard as if it were directly attached to the CDTV. It was a little laggy but quite usable. I only had it for a few weeks before it was burgled (along with a 35mm camera). It was probably the shiniest thing in the living room. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 9 10:36:30 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 May 2013 08:36:30 -0700 Subject: Control Data 9747 In-Reply-To: <1368101193.91803.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1368101193.91803.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <518BC27E.9030502@bitsavers.org> On 5/9/13 5:06 AM, Brian Roth wrote: > Has anyone ever heard of this drive model? It looks just like the 9746 in the CDC brochure. The closest thing I see that I have on bitsavers is the BR5A5, which is using the new disk naming scheme CDC went to in the mid-70's From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Thu May 9 10:57:53 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 08:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Control Data 9747 In-Reply-To: <518BC27E.9030502@bitsavers.org> References: <1368101193.91803.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <518BC27E.9030502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1368115073.109.YahooMailNeo@web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Interesting. I also noticed this under power requirements. INPUT POWER REQUIREMENTS NOTE Although three-phase power is specified, power for this device is obtained between one phase and neutral. Units leave the factory wired for 208v, 60Hz or 220v, 50Hz input. I assumed 3 phase only. ________________________________ From: Al Kossow To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 11:36 AM Subject: Re: Control Data 9747 On 5/9/13 5:06 AM, Brian Roth wrote: > Has anyone ever heard of this drive model? It looks just like the 9746 in the CDC brochure. The closest thing I see that I have on bitsavers is the BR5A5, which is using the new disk naming scheme CDC went to in the mid-70's From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 9 11:04:53 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 May 2013 09:04:53 -0700 Subject: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC boards for sale. In-Reply-To: References: <518B01E6.7010702@sydex.com> <518B21A7.2030206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <518BC925.3090101@sydex.com> On 05/08/2013 11:14 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <518B21A7.2030206 at sydex.com>, > Chuck Guzis writes: > >> The odd mounting of the TO-5 transistors points to a fairly old board. > > They all seem to have "CSC" on them. > > Computer Sciences Corporation? I doubt it very much. The modern CSC dates from 1962 as strictly a software outfit. At any rate, the logo at that time was a stylized atom with "CSC" above it. "CSC" can refer unfortunately to a lot of things and this CSC may refer to nothing more than the place that fabricated the boards, not to the actual customer. Perhaps this stuff isn't from a computer at all. Probably a good idea to analyze the components on each board and take a stab at the function. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 9 11:09:19 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 May 2013 09:09:19 -0700 Subject: Control Data 9747 In-Reply-To: <1368101193.91803.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1368101193.91803.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <518BCA2F.6070803@sydex.com> On 05/09/2013 05:06 AM, Brian Roth wrote: > Has anyone ever heard of this drive model? It looks just like the 9746 in the CDC brochure. Maybe a custom interface? I cannot find any specs or info for it. > > http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2775.JPG > http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2776.JPG > http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2777.JPG > http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2778.JPG > http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2780.JPG > http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2781.JPG > http://www.stargeezer.net/SAM_2782.JPG > > It was still in its shipping box and by the looks of it, I don't believe it was ever used. Looks almost like an 844, but the control panel's wrong--no illuminated buttons. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 9 13:03:39 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 19:03:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: <20130508121228.L84073@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 8, 13 12:19:42 pm Message-ID: > 10 years ago??!? > 10 years ago, they were using NiCd batteries. Assume less than a minute > of full power per charge. > > NOW, they use Lithium Ion. If you don't think that there is a difference, > then you haven't tried them. Err, yes... Li-Ion batteres have this habit of catching fire if you mis-cahrge them,,,, I must admit I've never liked recheargeable battereis. They als seem to have a ridiculously high self-discharge rate, so unless you use the device all the time (and thus keep it charged) , you will find it flat when you want to use it. I would always pick the direct-mains powered tool. > > Besdies Dremel themselves, there are as many makers of imitation dremels > as there are PC makers. Most are a bit more awkward and clumsy My expeirince that that the original Dremel has much better bearings than any fo the knock-offs. The side play in some of the cheaper ones has ot be seen to be believed. And the genuine Dremel accessories are better too. Dremel cut-off disks work. Cheap copies break up withing the first few seconds of use. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu May 9 14:10:23 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 15:10:23 -0400 Subject: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <920F4849-DB6E-42C2-BC89-E93B827E2419@gmail.com> On May 9, 2013, at 2:03 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I must admit I've never liked recheargeable battereis. They als seem to > have a ridiculously high self-discharge rate, so unless you use the > device all the time (and thus keep it charged) , you will find it flat when > you want to use it. I would always pick the direct-mains powered tool. For regular household use, the newer low-self-discharge NiMH batteries have worked well for us. We put the AAs in C size adaptors for use in a baby swing, and it ran the swing for a good week on a charge (not 100% duty cycle, of course, but not bad for AAs). We've been using them for about two years now and none of them seem to be showing signs of decreased charge life, either. I'm not sure I trust Sanyo's claim that you can stick them in a drawer for a year and still be at 75% capacity, but they're not as freakishly bad as the NiCd batteries of the early '90s (which was previously my last exposure to normal household rechargeables). - Dave From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 9 15:13:03 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 13:13:03 -0700 Subject: OT rechargeable batteries/ was Re: Source for replacement parts? In-Reply-To: <920F4849-DB6E-42C2-BC89-E93B827E2419@gmail.com> References: <920F4849-DB6E-42C2-BC89-E93B827E2419@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8EB4E585-24C6-4378-A0B9-A85632C544E0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 May 9, at 12:10 PM, David Riley wrote: > On May 9, 2013, at 2:03 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > wrote: > >> I must admit I've never liked recheargeable battereis. They als >> seem to >> have a ridiculously high self-discharge rate, so unless you use the >> device all the time (and thus keep it charged) , you will find it >> flat when >> you want to use it. I would always pick the direct-mains powered >> tool. > > For regular household use, the newer low-self-discharge NiMH batteries > have worked well for us. We put the AAs in C size adaptors for use in > a baby swing, and it ran the swing for a good week on a charge (not > 100% duty cycle, of course, but not bad for AAs). We've been using > them for about two years now and none of them seem to be showing signs > of decreased charge life, either. I'm not sure I trust Sanyo's claim > that you can stick them in a drawer for a year and still be at 75% > capacity, but they're not as freakishly bad as the NiCd batteries of > the early '90s (which was previously my last exposure to normal > household rechargeables). Modern NiMH and Li-ion batteries are great for things like cameras and bike lights, however I stay away from batteries for power tools, the really annoying problem being the manufacturers (or some) have taken the pay-through-the-nose captive-market approach for replacements. I tried to fix a couple of Makita battery packs for a friend by replacing some cells, but after the battery circuit was opened and the internal controller powered down it bricked itself. There is what appears to be a communications connector in the pack, presumably there is a way of telling the controller to recognise the batteries, if one knew what it was. It occurred to me before doing the work it could do this and if I were being really cynical-paranoid-careful I should temporarily wire a parallel supply with isolation diode before opening the battery circuit, but didn't bother. C'est la vie. Friend only got two/three years out of the drill and two battery packs. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 9 16:49:09 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 May 2013 14:49:09 -0700 Subject: Control Data 9747 In-Reply-To: <518BC27E.9030502@bitsavers.org> References: <1368101193.91803.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <518BC27E.9030502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <518C19D5.4050204@bitsavers.org> On 5/9/13 8:36 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/9/13 5:06 AM, Brian Roth wrote: >> Has anyone ever heard of this drive model? It looks just like the 9746 in the CDC brochure. > > The closest thing I see that I have on bitsavers is the BR5A5, which is using the new disk naming > scheme CDC went to in the mid-70's > I just uploaded a bunch of disk brochures and a OEM catalog. the 9747 uses a 9427 (hawk) interface as opposed to a TTL single-ended absolute addressing, according to the brochure for it. They should be on the mirrors in an hour or two http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/brochures/ From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 9 20:33:59 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 09 May 2013 20:33:59 -0500 Subject: Help me identify these old boards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <518C4E87.3000709@pico-systems.com> > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 19:09:51 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Help me identify these old boards?(1960s?) Also have DEC > boards for sale. > Message-ID: <6E331F75-C625-4B51-98CD-7A370442C2ED at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > Note the CSC logo in the circle. I have some of these, too. I think they are from RCA or GE computers from the very early 60's. Jon From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Thu May 9 11:48:59 2013 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 12:48:59 -0400 Subject: Citizen W1D floppy for Multia Message-ID: My Multia's floppy is very dead. It's a Citizen W1D. Anyone have one (or know where to get one without paying silly money)? From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu May 9 12:34:04 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 13:34:04 -0400 Subject: H8 Message-ID: Help! Does anyone know or have the whereabouts for an H8 manual, in print and/or electronic form? My Heathkit is ailing and I would like to get it back up and running, if possible...Thanks From raifield at gmail.com Thu May 9 17:27:14 2013 From: raifield at gmail.com (Derek Smith) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 18:27:14 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a IBM Model 25-286 Riser card? Message-ID: I had the bright idea of swapping out a Model 25 board (8086) with a Model 30-286 board, thinking that the boards were exactly the same. They are, actually, but the Model 30 board comes with a three-slot ISA riser, which does not fit in the Model 25 case. Apparently I need the Model 25-286 two-slot riser. I don't want to try plugging the original 8-bit Model 25 riser in, I fear it will somehow fry the board. Does anyone have a riser card they're willing to part with, or know the IBM part number I need to be looking for? From other at oryx.cc Fri May 10 00:46:17 2013 From: other at oryx.cc (Jerry Kemp - other) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 00:46:17 -0500 Subject: follow up???? - offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 Message-ID: <518C89A9.9050901@oryx.cc> Hello All, I a new subscriber from just a few days ago, and I have spent more hours than I care to admit to going through all of the emails in the online archives. In past lives, I spent a lot of time with OS/2, and even though I don't spend as much time as I used to with it, OS/2 comments still catch my attention. Anyway, to get to the point, I caught this thread (bottom) from 2008 which generated a bunch of comments. The thread was briefly revived in early 2009. If there was ever a final fall out from the thread, I somehow missed it. Was there a version of OS/2 for CPU's other than X86 or PPC? What was ultimately found to be on the tape? Thank you, Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes, you read that correctly. I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which contains none other than OS/2 operating system. Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. One other person who's checked the directory listing has said it is authentic. I'm not sure what to do with it, and I believe IBM made OS/2 open source, so technically it should be "free" of it's chains maybe someone can turn it into something useful, or just run it and have the most unique PDP on the planet, I don't know... whatever :) anyhow, it's a really weird bit of computing history, and I'd hate for it to be lost. it should be in a museum :) From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 10 00:56:23 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 May 2013 22:56:23 -0700 Subject: Citizen W1D floppy for Multia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <518C8C07.1040201@sydex.com> On 05/09/2013 09:48 AM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > My Multia's floppy is very dead. It's a Citizen W1D. Anyone have > one (or know where to get one without paying silly money)? I believe that teh Citizen has the same 26 position flex connector as most other "skinny" 3.5" laptop drives. You may be able to fit, say a Teac FD-05HF or FD-05HG, or perhaps a Y-E Data 702J in the same place. I've swapped Teac and YE-Data drives with no mechanical modifications. Mechanical drawings of all should be on the web for comparison. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 10 01:11:37 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 06:11:37 +0000 Subject: Corded vs cordless (was Re: Source for replacement parts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998DABA09@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 5/8/13 12:28 PM, "David Riley" wrote: > >I still prefer having a corded model available. For drills, I have >both, because there are plenty of circumstances where a cordless >drill is just essential. I suppose you could make the same case for >the Dremel, but I only ever used it at the workbench, so not for my >use cases. I probably should have led with that. > > >- Dave > > > A couple of years ago I was working with ipe, aka ironwood, and needed to predrill holes for the fasteners. This killed my cordless DeWalt's batteries faster than I could charge them. So I bought a corded drill for that, and continued to use the cordless to seat the fasteners (square drive). Much better. (PS: I went through a lot of drill bits, too. I think the frictional heating made them brittle.) -- Ian From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri May 10 01:12:35 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 02:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KA630 SLU details? Message-ID: <201305100612.CAA29043@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> It's a bit of a long shot, I know, but is there anyone here who knows details of the KA630 (MicroVAX-II CPU) console serial line hardware? My emulator is failing selftest 2 and it appears to be because it's expecting the console serial line to act in some way mine does't. But it's not clear from the code what it's expecting, just that it's obviously different from what I've implemented. In particular, what I see in my instruction trace is: - set stuff up, including putting SLU in loopback - drop IPL - take transmitter-ready interrupt - tell it to transmit a NUL - REI - enter wait loop (with countdown timeout) - take transmitter-ready interrupt, long before countdown expires - do nothing that touches the SLU - REI - take transmitter-ready interrupt again immediately - fail the test But I thought real hardware acted this way: don't clear an interrupt condition and it fires immediately upon REI. So there's clearly something I don't understand going on, hence my question.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 10 01:33:05 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 06:33:05 +0000 Subject: follow up???? - offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <518C89A9.9050901@oryx.cc> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998DABA2D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 5/9/13 10:46 PM, "Jerry Kemp - other" wrote: >Hello All, > >I a new subscriber from just a few days ago, and I have spent more hours >than I care to admit to going through all of the emails in the online >archives. > >In past lives, I spent a lot of time with OS/2, and even though I don't >spend as much time as I used to with it, OS/2 comments still catch my >attention. > >Anyway, to get to the point, I caught this thread (bottom) from 2008 >which generated a bunch of comments. > >The thread was briefly revived in early 2009. > >If there was ever a final fall out from the thread, I somehow missed it. > >Was there a version of OS/2 for CPU's other than X86 or PPC? > >What was ultimately found to be on the tape? > >Thank you, > >Jerry > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >Yes, you read that correctly. > >I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which >contains none other than >OS/2 operating system. > >Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! >I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. > >One other person who's checked the directory listing has said it is >authentic. > >I'm not sure what to do with it, and I believe IBM made OS/2 open >source, so technically it should be "free" >of it's chains > >maybe someone can turn it into something useful, or just run it and have >the most unique PDP on the planet, I don't know... whatever :) > >anyhow, it's a really weird bit of computing history, and I'd hate for >it to be lost. it should be in a museum :) > > I remember this thread, too, and one thing that AFAIK was never resolved was whether the tape contained OS/2 *for a PDP-11* or OS/2 for some other machine, on a TK50 tape. TK50 drives are not unique to the PDP-11, and will also hook up to VAXen, Alphas and DEC MIPS machines; since there is a Unibus controller for it, I can't see why one couldn't hook one to a KS-10, either. MS used a number of different platforms in its earlier years. So the ambiguity is meaningful. ISTR the OP didn't respond to such questions from the list. I'd be really surprised if OS/2 was ever ported to the PDP-11, partly because of the dates, partly because of the difference between the segment strategies of x86 vs. PDP-11. I can envision some MACRO games you could play, but I can't imagine why anyone would bother. :-) -- Ian