From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 1 00:11:19 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 01:11:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: 2GB Iomega Ditto Drive In-Reply-To: <50E23E5B.1070200@gmail.com> References: <50E23E5B.1070200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201301010611.BAA24151@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Free... Going into my e-waste pile if no one wants it. Just thought > Id ask... (a) Where is it geographically? (b) What is the host interface? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 1 00:38:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 01:38:58 -0500 Subject: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space In-Reply-To: <045301cde79f$65b80ef0$31282cd0$@ntlworld.com> References: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> <7D249A68-BBD3-4906-9F96-82AA00061105@neurotica.com> <045301cde79f$65b80ef0$31282cd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50E28482.1070205@neurotica.com> On 12/31/2012 04:39 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> Straight 11M (non-plus) does. (fits in 10 actually) Early RSTS/E, like > v8, >> should, but not 10 and likely not 9. RT11 does. > > BitSavers looks like it has 11M 4.0 in a 19MB virtual tape, here: > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/rsx11m/ > Assuming that is the right one to go for? > > I know next to nothing about RSX, what is the difference between plus and > non-plus? Oh jeeze, lots of stuff...I'm quite drunk at the moment, but I seem to recall..named directories being a biggie. Johnny (if he's montoring) can expound. I ran 11M (non-plus) on an 11/34 for many years. Rock solid, fast, very nice OS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mmaginnis at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 01:05:47 2013 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 00:05:47 -0700 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Win, Yes, bad RAM could definitely cause that. The board you have was manufactured by ON THREE, which got its start as an Apple III users group. Once Apple turned its back on the III, ON THREE stepped up and began producing its own hardware and software for the computer. Apple had advertised the III as being expandable up to 512K, but never released a board larger than 256K. As the ON THREE engineers discovered, it required some new ROMs and additional addressing lines, but they got it working. That 512K board is fairly rare and sought after by III collectors, as SOS and big programs like Pascal can really benefit from the extra room. I'm not sure how easy it is to locate replacement chips for that board these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), they were still available if you knew where to look. I have a few extra RAM boards for the III (256K and 128K, though - not 512K). I could loan you one for troubleshooting purposes, if you're interested. I wrote a quick blog entry a while back about ON THREE's card: http://www.6502lane.net/2011/01/17/a-look-at-on-threes-512k-memory-board-for-the-apple-iii/ Also, I have a PDF version of the user manual that came with it. The links in that blog entry are dead, but I can upload it, if you want. - Mike On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > Mike, > > Another follow up that probably sheds a bit more light on my Apple III > issue. I tried copying some additional disk images today. I tried the > CFFA SOS image, but it exhibited the same behavior as the other SOS > image...the floppy drive spins for about 3 sec and then nothing. On a > whim, I tried the RAM test image. It worked and brought up the RAM test > screen and began the test. It stops and indicates bad RAM where shown in > the pic in the imgur link below. There appears to be third party RAM in > this III. Is that common? Is there a way to test without that RAM that > would be recommended? I did reset all of the RAM chips on the board, but > it still fails at the same location. > > http://imgur.com/a/c40m0 > > On the bright side, I'm thinking this is a good sign for the floppy > drive...the down side is obviously RAM issues. > > Thanks, > > Win From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 1 01:31:43 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:31:43 +1300 Subject: My Sinclair ZX81 on YouTube Message-ID: A New Year's look at another one of my classic rest home residents - that triumph of British minimalism, the Sinclair ZX81. http://youtu.be/YcE_HqCOTf4 Terry (Tez) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 1 02:10:30 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 08:10:30 -0000 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > Sent: 01 January 2013 01:44 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work > > > > > I made the same experience when I performed a "DEC-format-marathon" > > with ten > > ST-225 drives which were neither DEC-labeled nor where DEC-formatted > before. > > Most of my disk drives where successfully formatted after having > > entered the drive parameters for the "TEST 70" procedure, but in case > > of some drives, the procedure was aborted. These drives where not > > successfully recognised as RD31 and no format was performed by my > microVAX-2000 in these cases. > > What I found out is that the drives which were not recognised as > > RD31's were drives with some bad blocks detected when formatted with a > PC. > > Can anybody else comment on or has made that experience? > > > > I successfully formatted several oddball non-DEC-branded drives rescued > from a skip (dumpster) using a VS2000. It was a long time ago and I don't > remember the details but I suspect some at least had a list of bad blocks on > the label. > I seem to recall that I did not have any way of knowing what the correct > parameters were and I found some by extrapolating from the example in the > manual and by trial and error. I agree with the general view that they > should be jumpered as DS3 for the internal drive. > > I eventually made a new drive cable so that I could have a "hot swappable" > disk outside the case. That is something I have been thinking about too. I don't know what the connectors used at the drive end are called so I can search for them. This worked great until I came upon one particular > drive which, when I pushed the connectors onto it, the VS2000 PSU promptly > switched itself off. I was somewhat puzzled as I was using an external PSU > for the disk and could not have been overloading the VS2000 PSU or so I > thought. I pulled off the connectors, power cycled the machine and tried > connecting the drive again and the same thing happened. Not to be > defeated, I tried connecting all the cables up and then powering up the > VS2000. This time the PSU tried harder, the machine powered up and one > of the wires in the data cable turned itself into a heating element, melted > and nearly set fire to its insulation. It seems that one of the wires in the > data lead to the external drive has a not very well protected +5V on it and at > least one drive variant shorts this to ground... > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 1 02:33:17 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 08:33:17 -0000 Subject: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space In-Reply-To: <50E252A0.3040205@verizon.net> References: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> <7D249A68-BBD3-4906-9F96-82AA00061105@neurotica.com> <50E252A0.3040205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <047701cde7fa$a77c3db0$f674b910$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison > Sent: 01 January 2013 03:06 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space > > On 12/31/2012 04:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Straight 11M (non-plus) does. (fits in 10 actually) Early RSTS/E, like v8, > should, but not 10 and likely not 9. RT11 does. > > > > -Dave > > > I have RSTS on RL02 so it must fit on 10mb! > > RT11 fits on anything, the whole build kit is two RL02s (boot and kits) > > I know of none that do not fit. RSTS and RSX are big and might have to be > trimmed > a little or some optional part left off. I am not sure how you would do that. I am following these instructions: http://9track.net/pdp11/rsx4_sysgen. The trouble is that after restoring the RSX-11M+ 4.2 tape, when I reboot from the disk it gives repeated disk allocation errors, presumably through lack of space. Is there a step that needs to be added when first restoring the tape to the hard disk? Regards Rob I do know we ran all of them > off three > RM03s (one per OS) on GRAF an 11/70. > > > Allison From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 1 04:25:25 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 23:25:25 +1300 Subject: My Sinclair ZX81 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Opps...the link above will not work as I had to reload the video. Some audio was missing. Try this one... http://youtu.be/7KsuTg1qHIE Terry (Tez) From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Jan 1 05:46:18 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 12:46:18 +0100 Subject: Wintersale in the Netherlands Message-ID: <201301011146.r01BkIai002837@ls-al.eu> Hi all, I'm cleaning up the overflowing attic. Most of it will probably be rather painfully expensive to ship, so I guess it might be more for the Dutch people on this list. Some items could be shipped abroad, though. Contact me off-list for details. All prices listed below are exclusive of shipping costs. Book: UNIX Programming Environment soft cover, 15 EURO USB KVM: Sweex USB and Audio KVM switch for two machines, 10 EURO PCs: AMD XP 1900+ with Radeon x850x, 50 EURO Compaq/HP D51s EVO, 25 EURO Fujitsu/Siemens p300 with AHA2940 and 20GB DAT, 25 EURO Apple: PowerMac G4 AGP with white Apple keyboard, 25 EURO SGI: Indy with Indycam, original keyboard/mouse and SGI 20" CRT, 25 EURO Sun: GDM5410 21" Flat Trinitron CRT, 10 EURO Ultra 5 333MHz/400MB, 15 EURO Ultra 10 440MHz/768MB, 25 EURO regards, reiche From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jan 1 05:54:06 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 12:54:06 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: [..] In the meantime I've compared the binaries from both readouts, they are identical so I think both attempts have worked. @Mouse: it seems that the Console Code in the rom is at 2004685a and upward. The only two occurences of the SCN2681 Register Adresses ( > 20100000 Channel A mode registers (MRA1, MRA2) (R/W) > 20100004 Channel A status register (R) > Channel A clock select register (CSRA) (W) > 20100008 Reserved (R) > Channel A command register (CRA) > 2010000C Channel A receive holding register (RHRA) (R) > Channel A transmit holding register (THRA) (W) > 20100010 Input port change register (IPCR) (R) > Auxiliary control register (ACR) (W) > 20100014 Channel A/B interrupt status register (ISR) (R) > Channel A/B interrupt mask register (IMR) (W) > 20100018 Counter/timer interval register upper (CTU) (R) > Counter/timer interval register upper (CTUR) (W) > 2010001C Counter/timer interval register lower (CTL) (R) > Counter/timer interval register lower (CTLR) (W) > 20100020 Channel B mode register (MRB1, MRB2) (R/W) > 20100024 Channel B status register (SRB) (R) > Channel B clock select register (CSRB) (W) > 20100028 Reserved (R) > Channel B command register (CRB) (W) > 2010002C Channel B receive holding register (RHRB) (R) > Channel B transmit holding register (THRB) (W) > 20100030 Reserved (R/W) > 20100034 Input port register (R) > Output port configuration register (OPCR) (W) > 20100038 Start counter command register (R) > Set output port bits command register (W) > 2010003c Stop counter command register (R) > Reset output port bits commnad register (W) ) are in that region, but again, there are a mass of instructions where the mnemonic sys nothing to me, I have to lookup every single instruction in the VAX Assembly language manual.. that's not much of fun when one tries to understand what happens there. 20046855: movp $10,$4,$3c 20046859: halt 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp 2004685d: movl $1,r5 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 20046864: movl (r4),r1 20046867: bisb2 $8,1003(r1) 2004686c: bicb2 $2,1003(r1) 20046871: bicb2 $4,1003(r1) 20046876: movl $a,1034(r1) 2004687b: movzwl $0320,102c(r1) 20046882: mtpr $15,$12 20046885: mtpr $00000040,$18 2004688c: movl 0000(r4),r3 20046891: movab 0x20044f66,r2 20046898: pushl r3 2004689a: calls $1,0x20046620 200468a1: movl *$20100004,r0 200468a8: blbc r0,0x200468e8 200468ab: bicl3 $ffffff00,*$2010000c,r0 200468b7: cmpl r0,$3 200468ba: bneq 0x200468e8 -------- Addr 2004685a disas> Are you able to find somthing like putchar() and getchar() there so that I can call those routines from netbsd's bootloader? I think the rtVAX300 will boot at least the loader, know, the real work comes next... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 1 08:11:22 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 09:11:22 -0500 Subject: SBC V2 PCBs have arrived! Message-ID: <00b501cde829$e0e80e60$a2b82b20$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! Good news! A new batch of N8VEM SBC V2 PCBs have arrived! In addition I just received an email from the PCB manufacturer that the N8VEM ECB backplane PCBs have been shipped. They should be here in a couple of days. I am guessing later this week. Here are some instructions on how to build the N8VEM SBC V2 for the total beginner but are useful for most any builder http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=Building%20the%20N8VEM%20for%20the%20Total%20Beginner The N8VEM SBC V2 and ECB backplane are $20 each plus $2 shipping in the US and $5 elsewhere. Thanks and have a happy new year! Andrew Lynch From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 08:49:08 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 12:49:08 -0200 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work References: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <83733DA71BBA4E55BB476A0EA705CE11@tababook> > That is something I have been thinking about too. I don't know what the > connectors used at the drive end are called so I can search for them. ` IDC female board edge for cable crimp...one is 20 pin (?) and other 34 pin (it is an old floppy drive cable, same as 5 1/4 floppies) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 09:01:01 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 13:01:01 -0200 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? References: Message-ID: <81BD5C59F7BC44629C032511376B1FC5@tababook> > I'm not sure how easy it is to locate replacement chips for that board > these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), they were still > available if you knew where to look. I have a few extra RAM boards It is not hard to find them. Common 4164 and 41256 RAM chips... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 1 10:43:19 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 08:43:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <83733DA71BBA4E55BB476A0EA705CE11@tababook> References: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> <83733DA71BBA4E55BB476A0EA705CE11@tababook> Message-ID: <20130101084002.B29925@shell.lmi.net> > > That is something I have been thinking about too. I don't know what the > > connectors used at the drive end are called so I can search for them. On Tue, 1 Jan 2013, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > IDC female board edge for cable crimp...one is 20 pin (?) and other 34 > pin (it is an old floppy drive cable, same as 5 1/4 floppies) ALMOST. IBM used a twist in their hard drive cables for drive select, etc., although IT IS NOT THE SAME TWIST AS FLOPPIES. You CAN use a straight cable if you are willing to set the drive-select and maybe other jumpers correctly. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 10:55:59 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 16:55:59 +0000 Subject: Marsplot Ballwriter pens for Calcomp 104X, 1023 Message-ID: <50E3151F.8000900@gmail.com> I have a packet of five BallWriter pens, part number 40C1 06-9 (is 06-9 the date code?) if any one has a use for them they are theirs for the postage, but as I am in the UK it might be a few dollars. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 1 11:22:25 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 09:22:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work In-Reply-To: <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20130101092153.A30604@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Jan 2013, Rob Jarratt wrote: > That is something I have been thinking about too. I don't know what the > connectors used at the drive end are called so I can search for them. "card edge" From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 1 11:36:41 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 12:36:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <50CFB678.10203@jwsss.com> <201212181006.FAA27538@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > @Mouse: it seems that the Console Code in the rom is at 2004685a and > upward. The only two occurences of the SCN2681 Register Adresses > [...] are in that region, [...] > 20046855: movp $10,$4,$3c > 20046859: halt > 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > 20046867: bisb2 $8,1003(r1) > [...] Well, the first two lines above are nonsense - movp cannot take literal/immediate data for all three arguments. This is almost certainly due to 20046855 being midway through some other instruction; looking at it myself, I see that segment as being 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) 20046857: ret 20046858: movzwl $0,5e24(r2) 2004685d: movl $1,r5 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 20046864: movl (r4),r1 which is nonsensical enough (movzwl $0 rather than clrl or even movzbl $0?) to suggest to me that 20046858 is an entry mask, and indeed disassembling it that way gives 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) 20046857: ret 20046858: entry mask: r5 r4 r3 r2 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp 2004685d: movl $1,r5 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 20046864: movl (r4),r1 which makes a whole lot more sense. > Are you able to find somthing like putchar() and getchar() there so > that I can call those routines from netbsd's bootloader? Haven't found them yet, but I haven't looked very much yet. I'll poke around and, if I manage to find anything, will report back. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 11:38:27 2013 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 09:38:27 -0800 Subject: 2GB Iomega Ditto Drive In-Reply-To: <201301010611.BAA24151@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50E23E5B.1070200@gmail.com> <201301010611.BAA24151@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50E31F13.7020404@gmail.com> On 12/31/2012 10:11 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Free... Going into my e-waste pile if no one wants it. Just thought >> Id ask... > (a) Where is it geographically? > (b) What is the host interface? > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Sorry, I should have updated the posting. Its been claimed. It has a parallel host interface. From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jan 1 12:07:11 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 19:07:11 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > @Mouse: it seems that the Console Code in the rom is at 2004685a and > > upward. The only two occurences of the SCN2681 Register Adresses > > [...] are in that region, [...] > > > 20046855: movp $10,$4,$3c > > 20046859: halt > > 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp > > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > > 20046867: bisb2 $8,1003(r1) > > [...] > > Well, the first two lines above are nonsense - movp cannot take > literal/immediate data for all three arguments. This is almost > certainly due to 20046855 being midway through some other instruction; > looking at it myself, I see that segment as being > > 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) > 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) > 20046857: ret > 20046858: movzwl $0,5e24(r2) > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > > which is nonsensical enough (movzwl $0 rather than clrl or even > movzbl $0?) to suggest to me that 20046858 is an entry mask, and indeed > disassembling it that way gives > > 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) > 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) > 20046857: ret > 20046858: entry mask: r5 r4 r3 r2 > 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > > which makes a whole lot more sense. > > > Are you able to find somthing like putchar() and getchar() there so > > that I can call those routines from netbsd's bootloader? > > Haven't found them yet, but I haven't looked very much yet. I'll poke > around and, if I manage to find anything, will report back. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Cool. I don't even know what the heck an entry mask is. Sorry, never done assembler on such an "big" machine. There are two occurences of "0c 00 10 20" in the code, at 200468b2 and 20046932. 0x201000C is the Address of the SCN2681 Transmit Buffer/Receiver Holding register so I think the routines should be there. The Address ofi the Channel A Status Register 20100004 is also appearing in this area (200468a3, 20046923, later at 20046c82, 20046cca and 2004c43c). Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Jan 1 12:23:11 2013 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 19:23:11 +0100 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ (was: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> On 2013-01-01 19:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 12/31/2012 04:39 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> >> Straight 11M (non-plus) does. (fits in 10 actually) Early RSTS/E, like >> >v8, >>> >>should, but not 10 and likely not 9. RT11 does. >> > >> >BitSavers looks like it has 11M 4.0 in a 19MB virtual tape, here: >> >http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/rsx11m/ >> >Assuming that is the right one to go for? >> > >> >I know next to nothing about RSX, what is the difference between plus and >> >non-plus? > Oh jeeze, lots of stuff...I'm quite drunk at the moment, but I seem to > recall..named directories being a biggie. Johnny (if he's montoring) > can expound. Since my name was mentioned... There are plenty of differences. Virtual terminals for one. Which also means that only M+ have batch queues. Named directories. Logical names. Variable send/receive. Secondary pool. Split I/D space support. Supervisor mode libraries. Accounting. Online reconfiguration. Mixed massbuses (probably not that big win today, when people run simulators anyway). Memory is managed slightly differently. I think that only M+ have disk shadowing and disk caching (also perhaps less used in emulated systems). Lots of tasks end up having more memory available in M+, which means they can handle more data, or have more capabilities. This also affects things like SYSGEN, which in M+ is rather more user friendly. There are probably more things, if I think some more. But this gives a fair idea. M+ is basically more. > I ran 11M (non-plus) on an 11/34 for many years. Rock solid, fast, > very nice OS. Agree. 11M is fine. It's just that if you can run M+, I'd recommend it. But it do require much more of the hardware. It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, that 11M do not. 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) Johnny From wilson at dbit.com Tue Jan 1 12:24:12 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 13:24:12 -0500 Subject: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space In-Reply-To: <50E28482.1070205@neurotica.com> References: <042d01cde792$ae2e8c20$0a8ba460$@ntlworld.com> <7D249A68-BBD3-4906-9F96-82AA00061105@neurotica.com> <045301cde79f$65b80ef0$31282cd0$@ntlworld.com> <50E28482.1070205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130101182412.GA25801@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Jan 01, 2013 at 01:38:58AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 12/31/2012 04:39 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> I know next to nothing about RSX, what is the difference between plus and >> non-plus? > > Oh jeeze, lots of stuff...I'm quite drunk at the moment, but I seem to >recall..named directories being a biggie. CON (i.e. device configuration at runtime) was another important thing. If I understand right, the main point of the rewrite was to support the 11/74 mP machines (where the point is uptime so they wanted to be able to remove switchable hardware for repair w/o shutdown/reboot), but then they shipped the new SW even after they decided to sit on the HW. (The mP features are covered in the doc set so evidently it was a late decision.) John Wilson D Bit From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Jan 1 12:27:25 2013 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 19:27:25 +0100 Subject: Installing RSX (was: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E32A8D.4010403@update.uu.se> On 2013-01-01 19:00, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison >> >Sent: 01 January 2013 03:06 >> >To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> >Subject: Re: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space >> > >> >On 12/31/2012 04:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> > > Straight 11M (non-plus) does. (fits in 10 actually) Early RSTS/E, > like v8, >> >should, but not 10 and likely not 9. RT11 does. >>> > > >>> > > -Dave >>> > > >> >I have RSTS on RL02 so it must fit on 10mb! >> > >> >RT11 fits on anything, the whole build kit is two RL02s (boot and kits) >> > >> >I know of none that do not fit. RSTS and RSX are big and might have to be >> >trimmed >> >a little or some optional part left off. > > I am not sure how you would do that. I am following these instructions: > http://9track.net/pdp11/rsx4_sysgen. > > The trouble is that after restoring the RSX-11M+ 4.2 tape, when I reboot > from the disk it gives repeated disk allocation errors, presumably through > lack of space. Is there a step that needs to be added when first restoring > the tape to the hard disk? Not sure what errors you are seeing, but it sounds weird. Anyway, the normal way to run M+ from an RL02 was/is to use the pregenned system for an RL02, which has all the necessary bits stuffed in, and everything set up. Ready to go. Generating your own system for running on an RL02 takes some careful consideration... Johnny From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 13:08:19 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 19:08:19 +0000 Subject: buying an Atari ST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 31 December 2012 04:27, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Now that is seriously interesting! I knew there was a reason I was keeping > up with this thread! Thanks! [*Chuffed*] I ought to have given due credit to another of the Giant Brains behind FreeGEM, John Elliott, who is also on the list now, too. John is a hero and a major force in PC-GEM, CP/M and Amstrad-related development, emulation and various other areas, too. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 13:33:15 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 19:33:15 +0000 Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212211952.OAA19388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 21 December 2012 20:34, Chris Tofu wrote: > > C: Well utter nonsense usually does have that affect. You're point I'll take it is that Satan/Lucifer is a *product* of the Jewish/Christian scriptures. But conflating Christianity w/Satanism leaves something to be desired as to valid logic. That's ok though. The pagans think they have it up on us as a result somehow. I could take the time to allude to the barbaric practices of most of the early forms of paganism, stuff which modern pagans take pains to separate themselves from (hence the neo-). It's awful nice when you can alter your beliefs to suit the times, and dispense with all that nastier stuff. > I know a pagan lady. Bat crap crazy she is. She said Thor was one of her favorites deities (along w/"Squat", who is alleged to be something of a patron saint of automobile financing. You ask her). So I asked her does she really believe Thor was a real *god*. She stated to the effect that all those old world gods were manifestations/representations of "the Divine". So why aren't they all just manifestations of ol' Beelzebub I ask? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. There's no point trying to explain it to you - you wouldn't understand; our previous email conversations have demonstrated that. As a happily god-free atheist, I've been called a satanist before, myself. The typical god-botherer is too stupid to understand that not believing in their preferred fictional sky-fairy doesn't mean that I believe in a different fictional sky-fairy. The notion of not believing that there are /any/ fictional sky-fairies at all is too difficult for many of them to comprehend. And since you believe that your mythical magic pixie-cum-dead-Jew-on-a-stick made the universe in a week 6000 years ago, that very very strongly suggests that you are not one of the smarter ones. :?D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Jan 1 13:32:48 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:32:48 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 06:18:19PM -0800, steve wrote: > Engineers get paid by generating code that works within the performance > capabilites of the system it's implemented on, not how it looks. Reuseable > code is about 3x the cost of a point design, your customer wants to pay for > that? No way. You want nice readable code, change the incentives. If you write release-once-then-run-away code, this may hold true. But a lot of code is written for systems that are maintained for more that one release. Having throw-away code in such a system will increase the risk of errors and the cost of maintenance quite a bit. Which is why people being serious about code quality usually have code commits gated by code reviews. Kind regards, Alex. > --- On Wed, 12/26/12, Terry Stewart wrote: > > > From: Terry Stewart > > Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Date: Wednesday, December 26, 2012, 11:30 AM > > Seen on one of my Google groups > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/21/financial_software_disasters/ -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 14:00:32 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:00:32 -0200 Subject: Getting an ST-225 disk to work References: <01OOGI64L9V6005EUI@beyondthepale.ie> <047101cde7f7$78d89290$6a89b7b0$@ntlworld.com> <83733DA71BBA4E55BB476A0EA705CE11@tababook> <20130101084002.B29925@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <878B48E2A6A64590936DC06D123ED105@tababook> Thanks for the correction, Fred! I forgot to add that :( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 2:43 PM Subject: Re: Getting an ST-225 disk to work >> > That is something I have been thinking about too. I don't know what the >> > connectors used at the drive end are called so I can search for them. > > On Tue, 1 Jan 2013, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> IDC female board edge for cable crimp...one is 20 pin (?) and other >> 34 >> pin (it is an old floppy drive cable, same as 5 1/4 floppies) > > ALMOST. > IBM used a twist in their hard drive cables for drive select, etc., > although IT IS NOT THE SAME TWIST AS FLOPPIES. > > You CAN use a straight cable if you are willing to set the drive-select > and maybe other jumpers correctly. > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 1 14:11:36 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 12:11:36 -0800 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> On 01/01/2013 11:32 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Having throw-away code in such a system will increase the risk of errors > and the cost of maintenance quite a bit. Which is why people being serious > about code quality usually have code commits gated by code reviews. I once wrote a text editor as a throw-away code project in order to learn the operation of some of the more arcane instructions of a particular machine. It was full of odd vector instructions and satisfied me that I could understand the descriptions of the instructions detailed in the hardware manual. Shortly after that, I moved on to another venture. Imagine my surprise when I discovered fully 10 years later, that my little learning project was still being used as the standard editor! The instruction set of the architecture had changed, with many of the instructions that I had used being tossed on the scrap heap. Someone had very carefully replaced them with subroutines that did the equivalent thing. I was dumbfounded and horrified. Moral: If you write throw-away code, keep it to yourself and don't let another breathing human being see it. They might try to use it. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 14:24:26 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:24:26 +0000 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1 January 2013 20:11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/01/2013 11:32 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > >> Having throw-away code in such a system will increase the risk of errors >> and the cost of maintenance quite a bit. Which is why people being serious >> about code quality usually have code commits gated by code reviews. > > > I once wrote a text editor as a throw-away code project in order to learn > the operation of some of the more arcane instructions of a particular > machine. It was full of odd vector instructions and satisfied me that I > could understand the descriptions of the instructions detailed in the > hardware manual. Shortly after that, I moved on to another venture. > > Imagine my surprise when I discovered fully 10 years later, that my little > learning project was still being used as the standard editor! The > instruction set of the architecture had changed, with many of the > instructions that I had used being tossed on the scrap heap. Someone had > very carefully replaced them with subroutines that did the equivalent thing. > > I was dumbfounded and horrified. > > Moral: If you write throw-away code, keep it to yourself and don't let > another breathing human being see it. They might try to use it. Excellent. That deserves to me much more widely-circulated! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 1 14:41:13 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 12:41:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130101122807.O31676@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Moral: If you write throw-away code, keep it to yourself and don't let > another breathing human being see it. They might try to use it. In 1970, I objected to using 2 digit decimal year numbers, but I was ordered to do it. "None of this will still be around." "Wait, and put comments in AFTER the program is complete." "Why are you wasting time adding comments to a program that is done? We need you to get to work on the next project." I was assigned to several man years to convert graphing packages from CalComp to SC/SD Datagraphics. Instead of rewriting them, I intercepted the lowest level calls (N/S/E/W/up/down?) and re-directed them to low level calls in the Sc/SD routines. Finished in 2 weeks. Got chewed-out for not using the entire time that had been contracted for. We did enough things right (such as that) during that year that the guvmint contract gave us a bonus that averaged $2K per person, for the company to distribute as they saw fit. I received a gift certificate for a supermarket frozen turkey. Because of "man on the moon day", we "ran out" of holidays, and were told to use vacation time for X-Mas. I called in sick. In 1999, when I was contacted to help "repair" my code, I refused. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 1 15:38:59 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 16:38:59 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130101122807.O31676@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <20130101122807.O31676@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50E35773.9030400@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/01/13 3:41 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > ... > In 1999, when I was contacted to help "repair" my code, I > refused. > The software business has only gone downhill since then, as far as I can tell. Thanks for the stories :) --Toby From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jan 1 16:20:46 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 16:20:46 -0600 Subject: IBM Model F DIN connector repair In-Reply-To: <50E248E9.40506@gmail.com> References: <50E0C75B.5090602@brutman.com> <50E248E9.40506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50E3613E.1070603@brutman.com> On 12/31/2012 8:24 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > What's at the other end of the cable? It's been so long that I don't > remember. I assume it goes via some molded strain-relief widget at the > keyboard end, but does it terminate within the keyboard with a plug that > *is* replaceable (or perhaps wires soldered straight to a PCB)? > > If so, personally I'd replace the whole molded cable and plug with > modern parts, but keep the original cable and faulty connector to pass > on to a future owner. Then I'd have a working keyboard, but a subsequent > owner could return it to a partly-functional original "museum piece" if > they wanted (or hack the plug off and replace that if they so desired, > but at least I still would have done my bit to preserve things). > > cheers > > Jules It is a cable assembly - the other end terminates in a nice Berg connector. Since it is hidden in the keyboard case all sorts of nasty hackish things can be done without detection. Here is a photo: http://www.brutman.com/pics/IBM_5150_Keyboard_cable.jpg Like you suggested, I am holding the faulty parts - I do that as a matter of policy. I might not be able to make a fix today, but in the future I might or I will run into somebody who can. Substituting in something else is a good workaround for now. I don't need these two keyboards operating at the moment so they'll just go back on the shelf with a tag. It does annoy me that a second one went bad after just a little usage. I suspect something dries out over time and makes it more fragile. Regards, Mike From wheagy at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 17:09:17 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:09:17 -0500 Subject: CFFA300 and Apple III? Message-ID: Mike, Good info, thanks. I actually have a copy of the ON THREE manual...I forget where I found it or why I have it, because I wasn't aware that I had that board until a couple of days ago. Thanks for the offer of the loaner board. I may take you up on that, but let me try using the ON THREE manual and making sure the board is installed correctly and and everything is seated properly. And, if I can pinpoint the bad chips, I might try ordering some replacements to see if it can be fixed. If I eventually do swap in one of your loaner boards, I'm wondering if I can roll the other changes back? It looks like there were a number of mods made to the motherboard to accomodate the 512K board....including new ROMs. I certainly don't have the original ROMs to put back. At any rate, my holiday vacation time and the disproportionate amount of time I've been able to spend on this hobby, is about to end, so it may take me a bit of time to get to all of it. But thanks very much for all the info, I feel like I have a much clearer picture of how the III works and what I need to do. Win Hi Win, Yes, bad RAM could definitely cause that. The board you have was manufactured by ON THREE, which got its start as an Apple III users group. Once Apple turned its back on the III, ON THREE stepped up and began producing its own hardware and software for the computer. Apple had advertised the III as being expandable up to 512K, but never released a board larger than 256K. As the ON THREE engineers discovered, it required some new ROMs and additional addressing lines, but they got it working. That 512K board is fairly rare and sought after by III collectors, as SOS and big programs like Pascal can really benefit from the extra room. I'm not sure how easy it is to locate replacement chips for that board these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), they were still available if you knew where to look. I have a few extra RAM boards for the III (256K and 128K, though - not 512K). I could loan you one for troubleshooting purposes, if you're interested. I wrote a quick blog entry a while back about ON THREE's card: http://www.6502lane.net/2011/01/17/a-look-at-on-threes-512k-memory-board-for-the-apple-iii/ Also, I have a PDF version of the user manual that came with it. The links in that blog entry are dead, but I can upload it, if you want. - Mike From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Jan 1 17:51:36 2013 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 00:51:36 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2013-01-01 12:36:41 -0500, Mouse wrote: > which is nonsensical enough (movzwl $0 rather than clrl or even > movzbl $0?) to suggest to me that 20046858 is an entry mask, and indeed > disassembling it that way gives > > 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) > 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) > 20046857: ret > 20046858: entry mask: r5 r4 r3 r2 > 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > > which makes a whole lot more sense. Just to mention: If you're using binutils's objdump to disassemble the ROM, you can use (multiple times) -M entry:0x.... to mark certain addresses as entry masks (thus, as function start addresses.) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Alles sollte so einfach wie m?glich gemacht sein. the second : Aber nicht einfacher. (Einstein) From spc at conman.org Tue Jan 1 17:58:49 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:58:49 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130101235848.GA19622@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Holm Tiffe once stated: > Mouse wrote: > > > which is nonsensical enough (movzwl $0 rather than clrl or even > > movzbl $0?) to suggest to me that 20046858 is an entry mask, and indeed > > disassembling it that way gives > > > > 2004684e: movl $5,1030(r6) > > 20046853: clrq 1034(r6) > > 20046857: ret > > 20046858: entry mask: r5 r4 r3 r2 > > 2004685a: subl2 $24,sp > > 2004685d: movl $1,r5 > > 20046860: moval 04(ap),r4 > > 20046864: movl (r4),r1 > > > > which makes a whole lot more sense. > > > Cool. I don't even know what the heck an entry mask is. > Sorry, never done assembler on such an "big" machine. On the VAX, each procedure (as called by CALLG or CALLS) starts with a 16-bit word that denotes which registers to save on the stack (each bit flags a register to save). It's not an actual instruction. -spc From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 1 19:35:14 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:35:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Cool. I don't even know what the heck an entry mask is. You might want to read up on VAX machine/assembly language, then, before you try to dig too much deeper into picking apart this binary blob. You can learn a lot without, it's true, but it will help substantially. As for entry masks in particular...the VAX has two different kinds of routine calls. There's the simple sort, which call with BSBB, BSBW, or JSB, and return with RSB. These are pretty close to the kind of call most RISC hardware has, a call being "do a jump, but push what would otherwise be the next instruction's PC on the stack first" and a return being "pull an address off the stack and jump to it". (The differences among the three call instructions is how the target instruction is addressed.) I'll call these `JSB calls'. Arguments, if any, can be passed pretty much anywhere: in registers, on the stack, in fixed locations, whatever the caller and the callee agree on. There's also the complex sort, which call with CALLS or CALLG and return with RET. These not only transfer flow-of-control but do a bunch of other stuff, too, notably meddling with AP and FP. They take the argument list in memory - on the stack for CALLS, anywhere in memory for CALLG. CALLS also removes the args from the stack automatically on return - the stack frame created by CALL[SG] includes a bit that tells RET whether to pop the arglist. I'll call these `CALLx calls'. JSB calls are substantially cheaper, but provide less assist. Most VAX toolchain and development software (compilers, debuggers, etc) assumes CALLx calls; in particular, stack frames are generally assumed to look like what CALLS/CALLG generate. As for entry masks, one of the things CALLS/CALLG do is save callee-used registers (and potentially, do a few other things, such as turning integer-overflow traps on or off). The entry mask says what registers to save on entry (and restore on exit); it's a 16-bit bitmask. (There are a few bits that would otherwise correspond to registers that it doesn't make any sense to save and restore, such as PC; these are the bits that control things like integer overflow trap enables.) The entry point address passed to CALLS/CALLG is that of the entry mask; execution starts two bytes further along. When running for the VAX, the e command disassembles two bytes as an entry mask (there's a note late in the README about this). > There are two occurences of "0c 00 10 20" in the code, at 200468b2 > and 20046932. Each of those appears to be real. I'm currently annotating every mfpr/mtpr instruction, or at least those with constant register number operands, as to which register it's referring to; once that's done I'll search out all the 201000xx references and annotate them. I'll make the disassembler save file and the resulting text version available.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 1 19:44:34 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:44:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> References: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> which is nonsensical enough (movzwl $0 rather than clrl or even >> movzbl $0?) to suggest to me that 20046858 is an entry mask, and >> indeed disassembling it that way gives [...] which makes a whole lot >> more sense. > Just to mention: If you're using binutils's objdump to disassemble > the ROM, you can use (multiple times) -M entry:0x.... to mark > certain addresses as entry masks (thus, as function start addresses.) Holm's email which I was excerpting included two lines (which I didn't quote) which made it clear that disassembly was done with my disassembler, which is capable of recording, for each byte in the file, what it is: instruction, entry mask, data, text string, etc. It also supports annotating the disassembly with comments; it is specifically designed for making sense out of an otherwise undocumented binary (it was first written to deal with a captured piece of malware). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 1 22:33:08 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 21:33:08 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <50E342F8.5020607 at sydex.com>, Chuck Guzis writes: > Moral: If you write throw-away code [...] Moral: it is not throw-away code, if you don't actually throw it away. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 1 23:01:18 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 21:01:18 -0800 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> On 01/01/2013 08:33 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <50E342F8.5020607 at sydex.com>, > Chuck Guzis writes: > >> Moral: If you write throw-away code [...] > > Moral: it is not throw-away code, if you don't actually throw it away. To be honest, even my throwaway code is well-commented and clean. What surprised me was that about half of the instructions that I made use of were no longer part of the current architecture. The editor served the purpose to demonstrate some oddball instructions (microprogramming gone mad) rather than offer a full-featured editor for production use. What horrified me was that someone had worked very hard with my original code to emulate those long-gone instructions, instead of writing a better editor from the ground up. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 1 23:03:54 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 00:03:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121227094604.GA96119@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230145651.GA53501@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm currently annotating every mfpr/mtpr instruction, or at least > those with constant register number operands, as to which register > it's referring to; once that's done I'll search out all the 201000xx > references and annotate them. I'll make the disassembler save file > and the resulting text version available.... Okay, ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/rtvax300/ contains rtvax300.bin The binary file Holm made available. rtvax300.dis The disassembler save file (based at 0x20040000) rtvax300.txt The text-form disassembly corresponding to the .dis file. I believe I've found the console routines. I've defined symbols for them - search for cons_ in the .txt to find them and their uses. The code you're looking for is probably the stuff in [20044ebf..20044f66), or [20044ebf..2004504d) if you're also interested in the code for using the other half of the chip too. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From microcode at zoho.com Tue Jan 1 23:08:49 2013 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 05:08:49 +0000 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130102050849.GB8777@zoho.com> On Tue, Jan 01, 2013 at 09:01:18PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/01/2013 08:33 PM, Richard wrote: > >In article <50E342F8.5020607 at sydex.com>, > > Chuck Guzis writes: > > > >>Moral: If you write throw-away code [...] > > > >Moral: it is not throw-away code, if you don't actually throw it away. > > To be honest, even my throwaway code is well-commented and clean. That's the sign of a good coder. There is no disposable code. > What surprised me was that about half of the instructions that I > made use of were no longer part of the current architecture. The > editor served the purpose to demonstrate some oddball instructions > (microprogramming gone mad) rather than offer a full-featured editor > for production use. I don't have that problem. All the instructions I have used are still in the current version. We do things differently now but the old stuff still works. > What horrified me was that someone had worked very hard with my > original code to emulate those long-gone instructions, instead of > writing a better editor from the ground up. People will go to almost any length to cut and paste or hack something together so they can proudly say to management they haven't reinvented the wheel. Usually, it's much smarter, cheaper, and even faster to engineer and deploy a new wheel. I've thrown out a lot of other people's code against managements' wishes, threats, etc. I have never regretted it and sometimes the brass even thanks me for doing it afterwards. But never beforehand! -- _ _ ._ _ _ <_> ___ _ _ ___ ___ ___ _| | ___ | ' ' || |/ | '| '_>/ . \/ | '/ . \/ . |/ ._> |_|_|_||_|\_|_.|_| \___/\_|_.\___/\___|\___. From spc at conman.org Tue Jan 1 23:13:46 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 00:13:46 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130102051345.GC19622@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > What horrified me was that someone had worked very hard with my original > code to emulate those long-gone instructions, instead of writing a > better editor from the ground up. The current "groupthink" among younger programmers is "THOU SHALT NOT REWRITE A PROGRAM FROM SCRATCH!" Also, "YOU ARE AN IDIOT FOR REIMPLEMENTING; WHY ARE YOU NOT IMPROVING AN EXISTING IMPLEMENTATION (preferrably, one that I use/wrote/trying to force as a standard)?" I think both of those thoughts might be in play here ... -spc (This is also how we end up with ten bazillion abstraction layers these days ... ) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 2 02:17:26 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 00:17:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 Message-ID: I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bthomas at brothom.nl Wed Jan 2 03:54:28 2013 From: bthomas at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:54:28 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> Op 1-1-2013 20:32, Alexander Schreiber schreef: > On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 06:18:19PM -0800, steve wrote: >> Engineers get paid by generating code that works within the performance >> capabilites of the system it's implemented on, not how it looks. Reuseable >> code is about 3x the cost of a point design, your customer wants to pay for >> that? No way. You want nice readable code, change the incentives. > > If you write release-once-then-run-away code, this may hold true. But a lot > of code is written for systems that are maintained for more that one release. > > Having throw-away code in such a system will increase the risk of errors > and the cost of maintenance quite a bit. Which is why people being serious > about code quality usually have code commits gated by code reviews. > Not-reusable code does not imply badly maintainable code. You could write high quality code to solve a problem in the shortest possible way (both in code-writing time and execution time) or you could write a more generic approach that could also be used to solve a similar problem. I think the former is an example of what Steve ment. I had a guy working for me who spent several days on adding a database to a program to make everything in the program configurable. Most of the configuration items would have done fine as a program constant IMO. The others could have easily be set by commandline parameters. IMO this is an example of overkill and I would fully understand it if the customer was unhappy with the amount of "improvement" gained for the costs involved. Regards, Bert From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jan 2 05:10:53 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 12:10:53 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > I'm currently annotating every mfpr/mtpr instruction, or at least > > those with constant register number operands, as to which register > > it's referring to; once that's done I'll search out all the 201000xx > > references and annotate them. I'll make the disassembler save file > > and the resulting text version available.... > > Okay, ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/rtvax300/ contains > > rtvax300.bin > The binary file Holm made available. > > rtvax300.dis > The disassembler save file (based at 0x20040000) > > rtvax300.txt > The text-form disassembly corresponding to the .dis file. > > I believe I've found the console routines. I've defined symbols for > them - search for cons_ in the .txt to find them and their uses. The > code you're looking for is probably the stuff in [20044ebf..20044f66), > or [20044ebf..2004504d) if you're also interested in the code for using > the other half of the chip too. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Hmm... I've got the files and tried to build a netbsd-boot thats saying something..but no luck jet.. I don't understand what's going wrong here, since it seems that the code in boot.c isn't reached at all, every time I'm trying to boot from eza0 I get this: >>> b eza0 83 BOOT SYS -EZA0 2..1..0.. ?06 HLT INST PC = 00001801 >>> >>> e/l/n:16 r0 G 00000000 20042F75 G 00000001 00FFEA00 G 00000002 00001000 G 00000003 00FFBA00 G 00000004 00000000 G 00000005 00000000 G 00000006 FFFFFFFF G 00000007 FFFFFFFF G 00000008 00000800 G 00000009 00001800 G 0000000A 00001800 G 0000000B 00000000 G 0000000C 00000200 G 0000000D FFFFFFFF G 0000000E 00001800 G 0000000F 00001801 ?26 ILL ADR >>> The Startup code in boot/common/srt0.S looks like this: #include "../include/asm.h" /* * Auto-moving startup code for standalone programs. Can be loaded * (almost) anywhere in memory but moves itself to the position * it is linked for. Must be started at first position, recommended * is phys addr 0 (boot loads programs at 0, but starts them at the * position set in a.out header. */ .globl nisse # pass -e nisse to ld gives OK start addr .set nisse,0 ALTENTRY(start) nop;nop; movl $_C_LABEL(start), %sp # Probably safe place for stack pushr $0x1fff # save for later usage subl3 $_C_LABEL(start), $_C_LABEL(edata), %r0 movab _C_LABEL(start), %r1 # get where we are movl $_C_LABEL(start), %r3 # get where we want to be cmpl %r1,%r3 # are we where we want to be? beql relocated # already relocated, skip copy movc3 %r0,(%r1),(%r3) # copy subl3 $_C_LABEL(edata), $_C_LABEL(end), %r2 movc5 $0,(%r3),$0,%r2,(%r3) # Zero bss movpsl -(%sp) pushl $relocated rei relocated: # now relocation is done !!! movl %sp,_C_LABEL(bootregs) # *bootregs calls $0, _C_LABEL(Xmain) # Were here! halt # no return So is should call Xmain after the relocation is done. I hacked a little in boot.c: void Xmain(void) { int io; int j, nu; unsigned char * ucp; u_long marks[MARK_MAX]; extern const char bootprog_rev[]; ucp=(unsigned char *)0x201ffffe; //LED Register io = 0; skip = 1; *ucp=0; l1: goto l1; autoconf(); ..it should loop before doing something (besides of displaying an "F" in the LED Display (~0), but every time it halts on 1800.. I'm trying to compile this with the older netbsd (5.2?) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 06:52:49 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 10:52:49 -0200 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> <20130102051345.GC19622@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <400F6FD709844C6CB9A7B41EE27944CA@tababook> > -spc (This is also how we end up with ten bazillion abstraction layers> > these days ... ) There is a time you NEED to start from scratch. The code is so badly-patched and full of layers that you need to take all the fat out and make it leaner. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 07:15:45 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:15:45 +0000 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <400F6FD709844C6CB9A7B41EE27944CA@tababook> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> <20130102051345.GC19622@brevard.conman.org> <400F6FD709844C6CB9A7B41EE27944CA@tababook> Message-ID: On 2 January 2013 12:52, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> -spc (This is also how we end up with ten bazillion abstraction layers> >> these days ... ) > > > There is a time you NEED to start from scratch. The code is so > badly-patched and full of layers that you need to take all the fat out and > make it leaner. http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/a-tale-of-two-rewrites/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 2 07:32:16 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 14:32:16 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:54:28 +0100 Bert Thomas wrote: > I had a guy working for me who spent several days on adding a database > to a program to make everything in the program configurable. Most of the > configuration items would have done fine as a program constant IMO. The > others could have easily be set by commandline parameters. > > IMO this is an example of overkill and I would fully understand it if > the customer was unhappy with the amount of "improvement" gained for the > costs involved. Depends. By adding that "overkill" that programmer solved the problem once and for all. If he had it done as a constant, the customer may wanted that constant to become a variable in a furure release. That woud cause additional efforts. The code would need to be touched again. But if it is already a variable read from a database, its just a matter of adding e.g. a GUI knob for the variable. Been there, done that. Many times. ;-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Wed Jan 2 10:22:20 2013 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 08:22:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic@web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 12/30/12, Richard wrote: > From: Richard > Subject: Re: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming > To: "cctalk" > Date: Sunday, December 30, 2012, 9:04 PM > > In article <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic at web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, > ? ? steve > writes: > > > Engineers get paid by generating code that works within > the performance > > capabilites of the system it's implemented on, not how > it looks. > > This is only true for one-off contract work type > software.? When > you're working on a product that has a lifetime longer than > a single > release, it is very different.? Every company I've > worked at has > considered the lifetime of the software to span beyond the > first > release and "how the code looks" was most certainly > important to them. > > > Reuseable > > code is about 3x the cost of a point design, > > Based on what?? Again, this is not in line with my > experience as a > person paid to write software.? my guess if you never wrote reuseable code http://agile.dzone.com/news/reuse-myth-can-you-afford reuseable code is define as code that can be used without any code changes across many different unrelated applications, code that implements floating point algorithm is an example. Digital filters that can handle fixed point inputs (with different word sizes), floating point inputs, as well as arrays is another example of reuseable code. The 3x cost has to deal with not just writing the code but testing it (all the various paths in different applications). You can't just write code, have a code review, and then test in one application and magically call it "reuseable". To test reuseability to have to test the code's ability to be reused. Code that just can be used in the same application, with just minor updates is not what is known as reuseable in the software industry. Although some refer to it as vertically reuseable as opposed to horitizally reuseable, but that is just to satisfy naive managers. > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > ? ???The Computer Graphics Museum > ? ? ? ???The Terminals Wiki > > ? Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 10:56:42 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 09:56:42 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> Message-ID: In article <50E403D4.6070904 at brothom.nl>, Bert Thomas writes: > IMO this is an example of overkill and I would fully understand it if > the customer was unhappy with the amount of "improvement" gained for the > costs involved. ...which is why "Extreme Programming" advocates embrace YAGNI. (Look it up on wikipedia.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 2 11:07:38 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 12:07:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Hmm... I've got the files and tried to build a netbsd-boot thats > saying something..but no luck jet.. I wouldn't worry too much about that. I once saw a document about doing bringup on a new architecture that said you should expect it to take at least several hundred failed boot attempts before you first get hello-world booted. In this case, I wouldn't expect it to be quite that bad, because the basic CPU architecture is already supported. But I wouldn't be surprised if it took several dozen attempts. > I don't understand what's going wrong here, since it seems that the > code in boot.c isn't reached at all, every time I'm trying to boot > from eza0 I get this: > >>> b eza0 [...] > 2..1..0.. > ?06 HLT INST > PC = 00001801 > >>> > >>> e/l/n:16 r0 > > G 00000000 20042F75 > G 00000001 00FFEA00 [...] > G 0000000B 00000000 > G 0000000C 00000200 > G 0000000D FFFFFFFF > G 0000000E 00001800 > G 0000000F 00001801 > ?26 ILL ADR > >>> Hm. sp = pc-1, fp = -1, ap = 0x200. My first guess is, like yours, that it isn't actually executing stuff. First thing I'd look at is what's in memory starting at 1800, with a peek also at what's at 200 (because that's where ap points). If I had to hazard a guess with just the information I have, I'd guess that 1800 holds the bootblock you built but with a non-executable header on it. At this point I'd probably try netbooting something that just goes into an infinite loop. Maybe something like .globl start start: nop 1: nop br 1b because that's about the simplest thing you can do that (if actually run) behaves differently from what you have now. I'd also take a detailed look (I'm talking "hexdump -C" level of detailed here) at the file being MOP-booted to make sure its structure is what you think it is. You're making me wish I had one of those cute little machines (well, aside from liking cute little machines, that is); if I had I would be in a position to do this myself. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 11:13:21 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:13:21 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> <20130102051345.GC19622@brevard.conman.org> <400F6FD709844C6CB9A7B41EE27944CA@tababook> Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > On 2 January 2013 12:52, Alexandre Souza - Listas > wrote: > > > >> -spc (This is also how we end up with ten bazillion abstraction layers> > >> these days ... ) > > > > > > There is a time you NEED to start from scratch. The code is so > > badly-patched and full of layers that you need to take all the fat out > and > > make it leaner. > > http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html Contrast with: > http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/a-tale-of-two-rewrites/ This was an interesting read, thanks. I always wondered why Netscape 4 was such a POS and now I know. I had heard stories from contractors who worked at netscape on how horrible the code was and at this time I don't know if they were referring to either the "duct tape code" or the rewrite code, but either way it sounds like the code was pretty shitty. I'm with Joel on rewrite vs. refactor (which is to say: don't rewrite, but do refactor incrementally with automated tests). This is also touched on by Brian Foote in his google tech talk "Big Ball of Mud" which I linked to earlier on this thread. Ugly code that has been debugged, tested and is working in the field is to be favored over new, pretty code that has not been debugged, tested and survived in the field. However, we should not delude ourself that the choice is only between ugly time-tested code and pretty untested code. The one can be transformed into the other by judicious application of automated regression tests (so you know that changes are indeed improvements and not making things worse or introducing bugs) and guided refactoring. Over the past 10 years, I have done this many times and the single biggest weapon in combatting shitty code is automated regression tests. Otherwise, you really don't know if you're making things better or not. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 11:17:34 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:17:34 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:54:28 +0100 > Bert Thomas wrote: > > > I had a guy working for me who spent several days on adding a database > > to a program to make everything in the program configurable. Most of the > > configuration items would have done fine as a program constant IMO. The > > others could have easily be set by commandline parameters. > > > > IMO this is an example of overkill and I would fully understand it if > > the customer was unhappy with the amount of "improvement" gained for the > > costs involved. > Depends. By adding that "overkill" that programmer solved the problem > once and for all. If he had it done as a constant, the customer may > wanted that constant to become a variable in a furure release. That is the time to spend on making it variable: when the customer asks for it. YAGNI doesn't say never do it, it says don't do it until you need it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 11:22:43 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:22:43 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic@web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic@web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic at web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, steve writes: > > > Reuseable > > > code is about 3x the cost of a point design, > > > > Based on what?\xa0 Again, this is not in line with my > > experience as a > > person paid to write software.\xa0 > > my guess if you never wrote reuseable code Ah... you subtly changed it from well engineered code (i.e. not throwaway shit that noone can understand) to REUSABLE code, which is something else entirely. I didn't notice that you called it REUSABLE. > http://agile.dzone.com/news/reuse-myth-can-you-afford I agree with the sentiments here: a lot of code is written with the intention that it will be reused, but it never is. So we paid for something we didn't need. Agile/XP practices (i.e. YAGNI) say don't design for reuse until you need reuse. PS: Please stop turning my perfectly good ASCII into useless non-ASCII. (\xa0? WTF?) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 11:31:33 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:31:33 -0700 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk I identified: 01:37 Model 28 ASR teletypes I noticed but could not identify: 07:13 calligraphic graphics system with hidden line removal. Could be an Evans & Sutherland LDS-1, but might be something earlier. I've seen this system in several NASA films, but I've never been able to get any information on the hardware used. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 2 12:43:27 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:43:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic@web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201301021843.NAA02273@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> my guess if you never wrote reuseable code > Ah... you subtly changed it from well engineered code (i.e. not > throwaway shit that noone can understand) Actually, for some purposes throwaway shit _is_ well-engineered code. Good engineering is about building it suitably for its use, not about building it to some sort of idealized "all code should be like this" target. When the purpose of the code is to, for example, verify that your understanding of some aspect of the language is correct, or when you need to compute a constant that will go into the final code as a constant, or some such, then the code _is_ throwaway, so making it anything else is wasted effort. >> http://agile.dzone.com/news/reuse-myth-can-you-afford (Unfortunately its author rather ruins the effect by making one of the most annoying (to my eye) rudimentary English blunders on the net today, namely, using "loose" as if it meant "lose".) > I agree with the sentiments here: a lot of code is written with the > intention that it will be reused, but it never is. So we paid for > something we didn't need. Yes and no, I'd say. The page you cite touches on this when it says One of the reasons developers want to "design for reuse" is not so much because the code will be reused but rather because they desire a set of properties (modularity, high cohesion, low coupling, etc.) which are desirable engineering properties but sound a bit abstract. Designing for reuse and designing for maintainability, while hardly identical, do overlap heavily. In particular... > Agile/XP practices (i.e. YAGNI) say don't design for reuse until you > need reuse. ...I consider this a dangerous idea. There is certainly some truth in it, but I think it is dangerous because designing code without any thought of reuse has a nasty tendency to result in code that is extremely hard to reuse, often needing a complete discard and rewrite. Designing code with reuse in mind, while not necessarily resulting in reuse-ready code, does produce code that is much easier to reuse later. Someone upthread wrote that "reuseable code is define as code that can be used without any code changes across many different unrelated applications"[sic]. I disagree with this definition; I see reusability as a spectrum, not an absolute, running from what that quote describes through code that needs a few minor tweaks and code that needs major tweaks all the way to stuff that is best scrapped and rewritten rather than reused at all. So, I would say, don't make it fully reuse-ready; that is wasted effort. But write it with reuse in mind. Do this because that produces more maintainable code in general. And, in many cases, it is actually the cheaper option. If we let the chance of needing to reuse the code be R, the cost to build it without even thinking of reusability P1, the cost to build it with reuse in mind P2, the cost to overhaul it for reuse (in extreme cases, this means scrap and rewrite) P3, and the cost to update it for reuse when built the second way is P4, then, if P1+(R*P3) > P2+(R*P4), you're better off building for reusability, as in, writing it with reuse in mind even if you don't actually make it reuse-ready. And, at least in my limited experience, that inequality is often true. > PS: Please stop turning my perfectly good ASCII into useless > non-ASCII. (\xa0? WTF?) >>> Based on what?\xa0 Again, this is not in line with my 0xa0 is the 8859-1 non-break space character. This is probably an artifact of a MUA that's been "improved" to the point where it's too stupid to comprehend the concept that quotes should be a literal quote of what was written, rather than what was massaged into some other form to get it past display code that's also been "improved" to the point where subtrefuge has to be used to display straightforward text. The message-ID in your In-reply-to: and References: is <1357143740.29987.YahooMailClassic at web120004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, which makes it look as though this was written by someone using Yahoo's webmail interface, in which case none of this misbehaviour is any surprise at all to me. Webmailers generally do not understand email, instead trying to shorehorn it into their "everything is the Web and the Web is everything" mindset, leading to damage like that. (That's hardly the only damage; I went back and looked up the message in question and found it (a) added spurious linebreaks to text it quoted and (b) used paragraph-length lines for its new text.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jan 2 13:05:20 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 19:05:20 +0000 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252706BC@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> >> See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > I noticed but could not identify: > 07:13 calligraphic graphics system with hidden line removal. Could be > an Evans & Sutherland LDS-1, but might be something earlier. > I've seen this system in several NASA films, but I've never been > able to get any information on the hardware used. I scratched my head at that myself. There's a slant to the frame not too different than the perspective you'd get if you had a movie camera pointed at some graphics terminal. Several technologies I know of at that time, would not result in any such slant: State of the art for several scientific application in that area, involved pen plotters (black ink on white paper) transferred to photographic negative movie film. (White image on black). A slightly cheaper approach (used extensively in my area of academia) was line printer paper plots transferred to movie film (again often in negative). Sub-character resolution was possible through choice of characters (not dissimilar to "ASCII graphics" although I know the movies were made using IBM and EBCDIC!) There was talk of direct-laser-to-film but I never saw it. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 2 13:08:34 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 14:08:34 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <076401cde773$54c36800$fe4a3800$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> <076401cde773$54c36800$fe4a3800$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50E485B2.3000109@neurotica.com> On 12/31/2012 11:24 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>> Ironically, the garbage collected languages lead people to write even >>> sloppier code than they write in C++. >> >> ...and that's saying something! >> >>> They think that garbage >>> collection is a silver bullet that frees them from having to consider >>> the resource consequences of their implementation. >> >> Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff >> like managing our own memory anymore!" >> >> Morons. > > Exactly. The "key phrase" that I encounter is "I don't want to have to > think about...". If someone I'm interviewing says that, the interview > tends to end fairly quickly. Hear hear! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 13:30:21 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 11:30:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130102112652.K54882@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > To be honest, even my throwaway code is well-commented and clean. > . . . > What horrified me was that someone had worked very hard with my original > code to emulate those long-gone instructions, instead of writing a > better editor from the ground up. Sometimes, it is easier, and much less intimidating to modify something existing into what you want, rather than face the daunting task of designing from scratch. It takes time, and experience, to build the confidence to know that you CAN start from scratch. You probably gave some "developing" programmer much needed practice and experience. But, let's hope that now he can build from scratch! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jan 2 13:52:19 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 20:52:19 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > Hmm... I've got the files and tried to build a netbsd-boot thats > > saying something..but no luck jet.. > > I wouldn't worry too much about that. I once saw a document about > doing bringup on a new architecture that said you should expect it to > take at least several hundred failed boot attempts before you first get > hello-world booted. > > In this case, I wouldn't expect it to be quite that bad, because the > basic CPU architecture is already supported. But I wouldn't be > surprised if it took several dozen attempts. > > > I don't understand what's going wrong here, since it seems that the > > code in boot.c isn't reached at all, every time I'm trying to boot > > from eza0 I get this: > > > >>> b eza0 > [...] > > 2..1..0.. > > ?06 HLT INST > > PC = 00001801 > > >>> > > >>> e/l/n:16 r0 > > > > G 00000000 20042F75 > > G 00000001 00FFEA00 > [...] > > G 0000000B 00000000 > > G 0000000C 00000200 > > G 0000000D FFFFFFFF > > G 0000000E 00001800 > > G 0000000F 00001801 > > ?26 ILL ADR > > >>> > > Hm. sp = pc-1, fp = -1, ap = 0x200. > > My first guess is, like yours, that it isn't actually executing stuff. ... yes, there is something nasty going on while booting from the network. I had this day free, and fiddeled the entire day on this thing, not to much luck. I've setup a cross build environment for Netbsd 4.0.1, 5.2 and 6.0 (used a remote machine that's a lot faster than mine at home). Hacked in the files that's building the boot programm, as far as I now know, that thing thinks that it is getting loaded eighter to zero or 2f0000 in the booting host, while it is linked to 2f0000. I've build a binary now that dissassembled looks like this: boot4: file format elf32-vax Disassembly of section .text: 002f0000 <.text>: 2f0000: 01 nop 2f0001: 01 nop 2f0002: d0 8f 43 00 movl $0x00000043,r2 2f0006: 00 00 52 2f0009: 16 9f 23 4f jsb *0x20044f23 2f000d: 04 20 2f000f: d0 8f 44 00 movl $0x00000044,r2 2f0013: 00 00 52 2f0016: 16 9f 23 4f jsb *0x20044f23 2f001a: 04 20 2f001c: 01 nop 2f001d: 01 nop 2f001e: 00 halt ..... other (real) stuff from netbsds boot comes here. When I depoist those bytes per hand in to 2f0000 and start it, I get this: >>> start 2f0000 CD ?06 HLT INST PC = 002F001F >>> start 2f0000 CD ?06 HLT INST PC = 002F001F >>> ... all like it should be. (that 20044f23 is your cons_A_TX w/o that leading blbc 1001(r11),0x20044f32 (don't know what that bis should do, so I left it aside) But when I try to boot that file with mop it dos an >>> b eza0 83 BOOT SYS -EZA0 2..1..0.. ...and hangs until I press the halt switch. Examining the memory at 2f0000 is showing this: P 002F0000 01 P 002F0001 01 P 002F0002 D0 P 002F0003 8F P 002F0004 00 P 002F0005 00 P 002F0006 2F P 002F0007 00 P 002F0008 5E P 002F0009 C3 P 002F000A 8F P 002F000B 00 P 002F000C 00 P 002F000D 2F P 002F000E 00 P 002F000F 8F P 002F0010 5C P 002F0011 EA P 002F0012 2F P 002F0013 00 P 002F0014 50 P 002F0015 9E P 002F0016 AF P 002F0017 E8 P 002F0018 51 P 002F0019 D0 P 002F001A 8F P 002F001B 00 P 002F001C 00 P 002F001D 2F P 002F001E 00 P 002F001F 53 P 002F0020 28 P 002F0021 50 P 002F0022 61 P 002F0023 63 P 002F0024 C3 P 002F0025 8F P 002F0026 5C P 002F0027 EA P 002F0028 2F P 002F0029 00 P 002F002A 8F P 002F002B F4 P 002F002C 10 P 002F002D 30 P 002F002E 00 P 002F002F 52 P 002F0030 2C P 002F0031 00 P 002F0032 63 P 002F0033 00 P 002F0034 52 P 002F0035 63 P 002F0036 16 P 002F0037 AF P 002F0038 00 P 002F0039 D0 P 002F003A 8F P 002F003B 41 ... I don't have any clue where this is coming from. Since I can only look at this after hlating the system, I don't know what is going on when the rom loader is actually starting my code.. That's not looking any better: >>> e/p/b/n:20 0 P 00000000 00 P 00000001 00 P 00000002 00 P 00000003 00 P 00000004 00 P 00000005 00 P 00000006 00 P 00000007 00 P 00000008 00 P 00000009 00 P 0000000A 00 P 0000000B 00 P 0000000C 00 P 0000000D 00 P 0000000E 00 P 0000000F 00 P 00000010 00 P 00000011 18 ... So the question of today is what the bootloader for the SGEC (eza0) is doing with the booted file on that board. > > First thing I'd look at is what's in memory starting at 1800, with a > peek also at what's at 200 (because that's where ap points). If I had > to hazard a guess with just the information I have, I'd guess that 1800 > holds the bootblock you built but with a non-executable header on it. > > At this point I'd probably try netbooting something that just goes into > an infinite loop. Maybe something like > > .globl start > start: > nop > 1: nop > br 1b > > because that's about the simplest thing you can do that (if actually > run) behaves differently from what you have now. Not really, both programs realize the never come back :-) > > I'd also take a detailed look (I'm talking "hexdump -C" level of > detailed here) at the file being MOP-booted to make sure its structure > is what you think it is. It is a netbsd ELF File 00000000 7f 45 4c 46 01 01 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.ELF............| 00000010 02 00 4b 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 34 00 00 00 |..K.........4...| 00000020 ac f5 00 00 00 00 00 00 34 00 20 00 01 00 28 00 |??......4. ...(.| 00000030 08 00 07 00 01 00 00 00 60 00 00 00 00 00 2f 00 |........`...../.| 00000040 00 00 2f 00 9c e5 00 00 8c 10 01 00 07 00 00 00 |../..?..........| 00000050 10 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| 00000060 01 01 d0 8f 43 00 00 00 52 16 9f 23 4f 04 20 d0 |..?.C...R..#O. ?| 00000070 8f 44 00 00 00 52 16 9f 23 4f 04 20 01 01 00 d0 |.D...R..#O. ...?| 00000080 8f 00 00 2f 00 5e bb 8f ff 1f c3 8f 00 00 2f 00 |.../.^?.?.?.../.| 00000090 8f 9c e5 2f 00 50 9e ef c4 ff ff ff 51 d0 8f 00 |..?/.P.?????Q?..| 000000a0 00 2f 00 53 d1 51 53 13 1f 28 50 61 63 c3 8f 9c |./.S?QS..(Pac?..| 000000b0 e5 2f 00 8f 8c 10 30 00 52 2c 00 63 00 52 63 dc |?/....0.R,.c.Rc?| 000000c0 7e dd 8f 68 00 2f 00 02 d0 5e ef 11 0a 01 00 fb |~?.h./..?^?....?| 000000d0 00 ef 82 03 00 00 00 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 |.?..............| 000000e0 00 00 fb 00 ef ff 3e 00 00 da 1f 12 da 00 18 d0 |..?.??>..?..?..?| 000000f0 ac 04 56 d0 ac 14 59 dd ac 08 dd ac 10 9e ef b1 |?.V??.Y??.??..??| 00000100 08 01 00 5a dd 5a 78 09 aa 4c 58 d0 03 5b d4 5a |...Z?Zx.?LX?.[?Z| 00000110 fb 03 66 00 00 00 c2 04 5e 00 04 01 c0 00 c2 04 |?.f...?.^...?.?.| 00000120 5e 9f ef ed c7 00 00 9e ef d5 90 00 00 57 fb 01 |^.???...??...W?.| 00000130 67 d0 ef 81 c9 00 00 50 13 1d 9e ef 78 c9 00 00 |g??.?..P...?x?..| 00000140 56 dd a6 08 dd 50 9f ef d3 c7 00 00 fb 03 67 c0 |V??.?P.???..?.g?| 00000150 0c 56 d0 66 50 12 ea 04 c0 01 9e ae 98 5e db 3e |.V?fP.?.?..?.^?>| 00000160 51 78 8f e8 51 50 d1 50 02 13 03 31 72 01 78 8f |Qx.?QP?P...1r.x.| file boot4 boot4: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped ..an I wondered myself how a VAX can boot a .elf at all. But I found now way to build a special "netboot" file with netbsd, maybe I missing something here? That may be the case... > > You're making me wish I had one of those cute little machines (well, > aside from liking cute little machines, that is); if I had I would be > in a position to do this myself. Only one of the two are realy mine, the other one is borrowed or such, I should try to do something with it. I do have the two disks that where connected to the VME Board before too, but haven't looked at them. That thing has build something like a sea map reader, like a flatbed plotter with a lamp from the bottom of the map, pointing at the actual location of a ship on that map. Don't know how this may be called in english... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 13:57:54 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 19:57:54 +0000 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E342F8.5020607@sydex.com> <50E3BF1E.6010900@sydex.com> <20130102051345.GC19622@brevard.conman.org> <400F6FD709844C6CB9A7B41EE27944CA@tababook> Message-ID: On 2 January 2013 17:13, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Liam Proven writes: > >> On 2 January 2013 12:52, Alexandre Souza - Listas >> wrote: >> > >> >> -spc (This is also how we end up with ten bazillion abstraction layers> >> >> these days ... ) >> > >> > >> > There is a time you NEED to start from scratch. The code is so >> > badly-patched and full of layers that you need to take all the fat out >> and >> > make it leaner. >> >> http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html > > Contrast with: > Ah, thanks. That is in fact the piece I was thinking of, but I misremembered the author - I had "software pundit / entertaining blogger/writer whose name begins with J" but I went for Jamie and not Joel. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From wheagy at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 14:38:56 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:38:56 -0500 Subject: CFFA300 and Apple III? Message-ID: A couple other related questions and a comments. I made a Apple III+ system diagnostics disk and that ran fine too. So it seems like the floppy drive is Ok, and all of the tests passed except the RAM test, so that's the big issue. The RAM test disk seems to help narrow down where the bad chip may be, so I might have a chance to find it without trial and error. It looks like there are two different RAM chips on the ON THREE board (as Alexandre mentioned) TMS4164-15NL and D41256C-15. It turns out I have an extra AST SprintDisk for my Apple IIe with a few D41256C-15 chips. If I'm lucky enough that one or more of those is the culprit, I may be covered, otherwise I'll need to source a few chips. If you look at the end of the ON THREE board in the second pic http://imgur.com/a/c40m0 there is a white header connector on the ON THREE board that connects to the male header on the Apple III motherboard. The ON THREE manual indicates that a gentle rocking should loosen the connector. It is a strange looking connector. The pins appear to come through from below and bend at 90 degrees. I've applied quite a bit of force and they are not breaking free. I'm afraid to pull too hard. Any pointers on how these connectors work so I can avoid damage? Thanks, Win From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 2 15:03:16 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:03:16 -0800 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jan 2 15:06:49 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 22:06:49 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Arrgl! The MOP Format seems to be the point. I have on my FreeBSd an mopd-2.5.3 from the ports, and in his buildtree I found a program mopa.out which is to be used to convert an a.out file (wich I don't have) to the mop format. NetBSD is using ELF too since ages, but I don't know if I can boot from an ELF file, maybe I'm stupid but I found no description how to create such a mop-file. In my tftpboot/mop dir are some collected files in the meantime: lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 5 2 Jan 21:51 0000f8509314.SYS -> boot4 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 7 11 Feb 2012 08002b06f23a.SYS -> mopboot lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 7 11 Feb 2012 08002b0da9a3.SYS -> mopboot lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 7 11 Feb 2012 MOPBOOT.SYS -> mopboot -rw------- 1 root wheel 583168 11 Jul 08:45 SH1601ENG.SYS -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 63212 2 Jan 19:48 boot4 -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 61460 2 Jan 16:07 boot5 -rw-r--r-- 1 holm holm 71168 11 Feb 2012 mopboot -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 60176 15 Dez 19:55 mopboot6 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 60232 2 Jan 12:07 mopboot6a -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 63852 2 Jan 15:54 netbsd-5.0-boot -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 63132 2 Jan 15:54 netbsd-5.2-boot -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 63084 2 Jan 15:54 netbsd4.0.1-boot mopboot is an old one from which I think I used it to boot the uVAXII, netbsd-* are the original files from the installation/netboot dirs in the distribution of ftp.netbsd.org lets see what this is: mopboot: data mopboot6: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped mopboot6a: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped netbsd-5.0-boot: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped netbsd-5.2-boot: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped netbsd4.0.1-boot: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Digital VAX, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped Aha. in the front of the mopboot file are 200 bytes of header: 00000000 d4 00 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |?.0.............| 00000010 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| 00000020 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| * 000000d0 00 00 00 00 00 00 8a 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| 000000e0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| * 000001f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ff ff |..............??| 00000200 01 01 d0 8f 00 00 2f 00 5e c3 8f 00 00 2f 00 8f |..?.../.^?.../..| 00000210 5c ea 2f 00 50 9e af e8 51 d0 8f 00 00 2f 00 53 |\?/.P.??Q?.../.S| 00000220 28 50 61 63 c3 8f 5c ea 2f 00 8f f4 10 30 00 52 |(Pac?.\?/..?.0.R| 00000230 2c 00 63 00 52 63 16 af 00 d0 8f 41 00 2f 00 6e |,.c.Rc.?.?.A./.n| 00000240 05 dd 5b fb 01 ef 6c 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 da 1f |.?[?.?l.......?.| 00000250 12 da 00 18 d0 ac 04 56 d0 ac 14 59 9e ef 06 0f |.?..??.V??.Y.?..| 00000260 01 00 5a dd 5a 78 09 aa 4c 58 d0 03 5b d4 5a fb |..Z?Zx.?LX?.[?Z?| 00000270 01 66 00 01 06 01 2f 00 a2 06 2f 00 f2 00 2f 00 |.f..../.?./.?./.| 00000280 ed 00 2f 00 a2 06 2f 00 e1 00 2f 00 dc 00 2f 00 |?./.?./.?./.?./.| 00000290 2e 04 2f 00 c6 00 2f 00 c1 00 2f 00 f2 03 2f 00 |../.?./.?./.?./.| 000002a0 b0 00 2f 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |?./.............| 000002b0 48 61 6c 74 73 20 74 68 65 20 73 79 73 74 65 6d |Halts the system| 000002c0 00 68 61 6c 74 00 4c 6f 61 64 20 61 6e 64 20 65 |.halt.Load and e| 000002d0 78 65 63 75 74 65 20 66 69 6c 65 00 62 6f 6f 74 |xecute file.boot| 000002e0 00 53 61 6d 65 20 61 73 20 27 3f 27 00 68 65 6c |.Same as '?'.hel| 000002f0 70 00 53 68 6f 77 20 74 68 69 73 20 68 65 6c 70 |p.Show this help| 00000300 20 6d 65 6e 75 00 3f 00 32 32 3a 31 33 3a 33 30 | menu.?.22:13:30| 00000310 00 4a 61 6e 20 20 36 20 32 30 30 32 00 0a 0d 3e |.Jan 6 2002...>| 00000320 3e 20 4e 65 74 42 53 44 2f 76 61 78 20 62 6f 6f |> NetBSD/vax boo| 00000330 74 20 5b 25 73 20 25 73 5d 20 3c 3c 0a 00 3e 3e |t [%s %s] <<..>>| 00000340 20 50 72 65 73 73 20 61 6e 79 20 6b 65 79 20 74 | Press any key t| 00000350 6f 20 61 62 6f 72 74 20 61 75 74 6f 62 6f 6f 74 |o abort autoboot| This file claims to be from Jan 6 2002, proably the last time where netbooting a VAX was possible? I've found out, that the log from mopd with the mopboot file is significant larger than with all other and newer files, the mop boot simply stalls and the contents in the VAX memory simply where some rests of previos tries with mopboot. Oh no, thanks. Now it seems I have to analyze how I can build a proper VAX Mop File out of the ELF files I have, maybei I can do objcopy and later mopa.out? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 2 15:08:18 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:08:18 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4A1C2.6070008@neurotica.com> On 01/02/2013 04:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA >> in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? People playing video games, looking at porn, and paying other people to reinstall the OS? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 15:08:25 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 16:08:25 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? f -- Will From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 15:10:17 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 16:10:17 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: , <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: Which PC era? cassette tapes?the floppy disk?CDs ?DVDs ?blu-ray disks?hard drives?a picture of a bunch of clouds??? Dan. > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:03:16 -0800 > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: > Subject: Re: NASA computers circa 1969 > > On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > > > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? > > --Chuck > > From mmaginnis at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 15:13:11 2013 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 14:13:11 -0700 Subject: CFFA300 and Apple III? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Win, Great! LMK if/when you need anything. If do you switch back to an Apple-made memory board, I believe you'll need the original ROMs. I wouldn't recommend going all the way back to a 128K board, though. SOS barely fits in that amount of memory - stick to 256K. Also, you'll need to make sure you get a memory board that matches your system. Since it's a III+, the original 128K 12V board won't work in it. Also, if you don't already have it, grab a copy of the Sun Remarketing Do-It-Yourself Guide for the Apple III. Lots of great troubleshooting procedures in there. http://apple3.org/Documents/Manuals/Sun%20Remarketing%20Do-it-yourself%20Guide%20for%20the%20Apple%20III.pdf - Mike On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 4:09 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > Mike, > > Good info, thanks. I actually have a copy of the ON THREE manual...I > forget where I found it or why I have it, because I wasn't aware that I had > that board until a couple of days ago. > > Thanks for the offer of the loaner board. I may take you up on that, but > let me try using the ON THREE manual and making sure the board is installed > correctly and and everything is seated properly. And, if I can pinpoint > the bad chips, I might try ordering some replacements to see if it can be > fixed. If I eventually do swap in one of your loaner boards, I'm wondering > if I can roll the other changes back? It looks like there were a number of > mods made to the motherboard to accomodate the 512K board....including new > ROMs. I certainly don't have the original ROMs to put back. > > At any rate, my holiday vacation time and the disproportionate amount of > time I've been able to spend on this hobby, is about to end, so it may take > me a bit of time to get to all of it. But thanks very much for all the > info, I feel like I have a much clearer picture of how the III works and > what I need to do. > > Win > > Hi Win, > > Yes, bad RAM could definitely cause that. The board you have was > manufactured by ON THREE, which got its start as an Apple III users > group. Once Apple turned its back on the III, ON THREE stepped up and > began producing its own hardware and software for the computer. Apple > had advertised the III as being expandable up to 512K, but never > released a board larger than 256K. As the ON THREE engineers > discovered, it required some new ROMs and additional addressing lines, > but they got it working. That 512K board is fairly rare and sought > after by III collectors, as SOS and big programs like Pascal can > really benefit from the extra room. > > I'm not sure how easy it is to locate replacement chips for that board > these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), they were still > available if you knew where to look. I have a few extra RAM boards > for the III (256K and 128K, though - not 512K). I could loan you one > for troubleshooting purposes, if you're interested. > > I wrote a quick blog entry a while back about ON THREE's card: > > http://www.6502lane.net/2011/01/17/a-look-at-on-threes-512k-memory-board-for-the-apple-iii/ > > Also, I have a PDF version of the user manual that came with it. The > links in that blog entry are dead, but I can upload it, if you want. > > - Mike From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 2 15:16:07 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:16:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 2, 13 01:03:16 pm" Message-ID: <201301022116.r02LG7Rv31195196@floodgap.com> > > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? A CRT monitor with a blue screen of death? http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/30/mini-how-to-remove-the-windows-bsod-icon-in-leopard-make-os-x-a-little-less-smug/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MARXISTS SCHEME CLASSLESS SMALLTALK! -- Arch Robison ----------------------- From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jan 2 15:18:51 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 16:18:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A1C2.6070008@neurotica.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4A1C2.6070008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 01/02/2013 04:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? A keyboard and a CRT. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 15:21:59 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 21:21:59 +0000 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <755483913-1357161717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-729587271-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> A sad mac face? -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:03:16 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: NASA computers circa 1969 On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 2 15:22:40 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 14:22:40 -0700 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4A520.9090606@e-bbes.com> On 2013-01-02 14:03, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA >> in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? A blue screen? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 2 15:24:17 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 14:24:17 -0700 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4A581.5000206@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/2/2013 2:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA >> in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? Trash Can. > --Chuck > From mmaginnis at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 15:24:49 2013 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 14:24:49 -0700 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? In-Reply-To: <81BD5C59F7BC44629C032511376B1FC5@tababook> References: <81BD5C59F7BC44629C032511376B1FC5@tababook> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I'm not sure how easy it is to locate replacement chips for that board >> these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), they were still >> available if you knew where to look. I have a few extra RAM boards > > > It is not hard to find them. Common 4164 and 41256 RAM chips... Thanks, Alexandre! From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 2 15:25:49 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 14:25:49 -0700 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> On 2013-01-02 14:06, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Arrgl! > > The MOP Format seems to be the point. > I have on my FreeBSd an mopd-2.5.3 from the ports, and in his buildtree > I found a program mopa.out which is to be used to convert an a.out file > (wich I don't have) to the mop format. > > NetBSD is using ELF too since ages, but I don't know if I can boot from an > ELF file, maybe I'm stupid but I found no description how to create such a > mop-file. What about putting this discussion to port-vax at netbsd.org? (you have to sign in ...) I really don't mind having this discussion here, actually I love it, but at the port-vax you get more help booting a vax on netbsd ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 2 15:27:33 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:27:33 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4A645.1020200@neurotica.com> On 01/02/2013 04:08 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? > > f f? ;) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spc at conman.org Wed Jan 2 15:32:40 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 16:32:40 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130102213240.GC23950@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > > >I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > >in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon > for old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? A picture of a CRT with a flying toaster on it. -spc (What's a "tape"? 8-P From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 2 16:07:41 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 23:07:41 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:17:34 -0700 Richard wrote: > YAGNI doesn't say never do it, it says don't do it until you need it. Which is false when applied in an absolute manner. Most (all?) things go wrong when taken to an absolute extreme. Proper real world engineering is allways a question of optimizing, balanceing and finding a pragmatic way in the middle. The Middle Way is no new concept. It is one of the fundamental wisdoms of Buddhism. Something that has proven to be true by many generations of humans for now well over 2500 years weights more to me then the ideas of some Extreme Programming Guru. ;-) You can apply YAGNI in an absolute manner in your Extreme Programming monastery up there on top of the ivory tower. But you are doomed to fail sooner or later when you are in the real world. Even if you do it right and you are right in doing it right, you may get fired by a suit who has a different opinion about what is right... ;-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 2 16:15:22 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 23:15:22 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 22:06:49 +0100 Holm Tiffe wrote: > Now it seems I have to analyze how I can build a proper VAX Mop File > out of the ELF files I have MOPCOPY(1) General Commands Manual MOPCOPY(1) NAME mopcopy -- Create MOP image from another executable format SYNOPSIS mopcopy infile outfile DESCRIPTION mopcopy is used to convert a file from another executable format to a MOP image. Elf32 and a.out VAX images are currently supported. SEE ALSO mopchk(1), mopprobe(1), moptrace(1), a.out(5), elf(5), mopd(8) AUTHORS Lloyd Parkes Jason R. Thorpe NetBSD 6.0_STABLE June 6, 2002 NetBSD 6.0_STABLE -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 2 16:41:54 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 15:41:54 -0700 Subject: icon for the PC ear (was Re: NASA computers circa 1969) In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4B7B2.8030805@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? The Blue Screen of Death? A piece of Spam? From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 2 16:56:00 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 17:56:00 -0500 Subject: icon for the PC ear (was Re: NASA computers circa 1969) References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4B7B2.8030805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 5:41 PM Subject: icon for the PC ear (was Re: NASA computers circa 1969) > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? > > The Blue Screen of Death? > A piece of Spam? > Free Porn, Facebook. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Jan 2 16:59:51 2013 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 23:59:51 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130102225951.GA5673@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2013-01-01 20:44:34 -0500, Mouse wrote: > > Just to mention: If you're using binutils's objdump to disassemble > > the ROM, you can use (multiple times) -M entry:0x.... to mark > > certain addresses as entry masks (thus, as function start addresses.) > > Holm's email which I was excerpting included two lines (which I didn't > quote) which made it clear that disassembly was done with my > disassembler, which is capable of recording, for each byte in the file, > what it is: instruction, entry mask, data, text string, etc. It also > supports annotating the disassembly with comments; it is specifically > designed for making sense out of an otherwise undocumented binary (it > was first written to deal with a captured piece of malware). Well, I'd probably also use it? Where can I find it? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Gib Dein Bestes. Dann ?bertriff Dich selbst! the second : From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 17:04:53 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 17:04:53 -0600 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> On 01/02/2013 03:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon for > old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? You expect people in 50 years time to care about anything that happened 50 years ago? The current generation seem to think of last week as ancient history :-( From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 17:14:30 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 18:14:30 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> Message-ID: > You expect people in 50 years time to care about anything that happened 50 > years ago? The current generation seem to think of last week as ancient > history :-( Yeah, just like you and me and everyone else when we were 14. People grown to like history. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 17:25:19 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:25:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252706BC@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252706BC@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <20130102150924.I54882@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 Jan 2013, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > involved pen plotters (black ink on white paper) transferred to > photographic negative movie film. (White image on black). > A slightly cheaper approach (used extensively in my area of academia) > was line printer paper plots transferred to movie film (again often in > negative). Sub-character resolution was possible through choice of > characters (not dissimilar to "ASCII graphics" although I know the > movies were made using IBM and EBCDIC!) > There was talk of direct-laser-to-film but I never saw it. I was at GSFC (Goddard Space Flight Center) Greenbelt Maryland in 1969. But, had almost no idea what I was doing. ("Data Technician", but spent most of my time doing FORTRAN, APL, and manual plotting of graphs for a British physisicist stufying Van Allen belts) On-site contractor (KMS Technology) Building 26, "National Space Sciences Data Center" I remember: LOTS of punchcards, quite a few reels of tape some EAM/"Unit Record" machines 7094, with 360/30 doing its I/O 360-70 360-90? 360-95? Selectric terminal (with APL typeball) connecting to somewhere in Virginia. 026 keypunches A "Gerber Data Digitizer" (giant etch-a-sketch) connected to one of the 026s (foor pedal punched 2 3 digit numbers) Calcomp plotters 570? 690? Stromberg-Carlson/Stromberg-Datagraphics? 4020? and 4060? direct to 16mm or 35mm film printer/plotters off-limits cubicles with 029 punches and professional keypunchers. "Do EVERYTHING on coding sheets, and submit them to the keypunchers; if you punch your own code, we'll start paying you keypunch wages." Since I was being paid LESS than that, I ignored THAT threat/promise?. "Plot E Vs L for this data printout" "Take this deck of cards to building xx. But duplicate it on unmarked cards first, because you don't have clearance to touch it." "Run this data through GLSP with variables of xxx and yyy" "Convert those 3 CABINETS of FORTRAN from Calcomp output to SC" "Fetch this order from the cafeteria" From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 17:29:06 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:29:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130102152838.A54882@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? floppy disk? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 17:31:59 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:31:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A520.9090606@e-bbes.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4A520.9090606@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20130102153142.T54882@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 Jan 2013, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? "404" From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 17:43:19 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:43:19 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > You can apply YAGNI in an absolute manner in your Extreme Programming > monastery up there on top of the ivory tower. [...] Just the way you are phrasing this statement tells me that you don't understand what Extreme Programming is about. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From madodel at ptdprolog.net Wed Jan 2 17:58:37 2013 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 18:58:37 -0500 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50E4C9AD.4030202@ptdprolog.net> On 01/02/13 16:03, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/02/2013 12:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA >> in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > An interesting question came to mind. It seems that the popular icon for > old computing gear is tapes spinning and lights blinking. > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? > The Blue Screen of Death. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 2 18:59:13 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 19:59:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E485B2.3000109@neurotica.com> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> <076401cde773$54c36800$fe4a3800$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E485B2.3000109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201301030059.TAA03641@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff >>> like managing our own memory anymore!" >>> Morons. Well, with that attitude, yes. But sometimes not worrying about memory management is a right answer. >> Exactly. The "key phrase" that I encounter is "I don't want to have >> to think about...". If someone I'm interviewing says that, the >> interview tends to end fairly quickly. > Hear hear! I hope you apply a bit of intelligence. There are lots of cases where "I don't want to have to think about..." is perfectly reasonable. For example, for almost all the code I write, I don't want to have to think about the details of the machine language behind them; that's why I don't write in assembly/machine code. (And, yes, that "almost all" is an important qualification.) And, yes, sometimes memory management is something I don't want to have to think about. Tasks like those I do in Lisp, or sh, or awk, or some such lanugage that hides that from me. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 2 19:31:47 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 20:31:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201301030131.UAA03834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > 2f0002: d0 8f 43 00 movl $0x00000043,r2 > 2f0006: 00 00 52 You could make this three bytes more compact by using movzbl. (If you were using characters in the 0x00-0x3f range, you could use a short literal and it'd be only three bytes either way.) Not that that's relevant to your problem. > that 20044f23 is your cons_A_TX w/o that leading > blbc 1001(r11),0x20044f32 > (don't know what that bis should do, so I left it aside) I think that is probably handling for "no console present" or some such. Most of the console interaction checks it in some form. > Examining the memory at 2f0000 is showing this: [compacted vertically -Mouse] > P 002F0000 01 01 D0 8F 00 00 2F 00 > P 002F0008 5E C3 8F 00 00 2F 00 8F > P 002F0010 5C EA 2F 00 50 9E AF E8 > P 002F0018 51 D0 8F 00 00 2F 00 53 > P 002F0020 28 50 61 63 C3 8F 5C EA > P 002F0028 2F 00 8F F4 10 30 00 52 > P 002F0030 2C 00 63 00 52 63 16 AF > P 002F0038 00 D0 8F 41 > I don't have any clue where this is coming from. I think I might. This disassembles as 2f0000: nop 2f0001: nop 2f0002: movl $002f0000,sp 2f0009: subl3 $002f0000,$002fea5c,r0 2f0015: movab 0x2f0000,r1 2f0019: movl $002f0000,r3 2f0020: movc3 r0,(r1),(r3) 2f0024: subl3 $002fea5c,$003010f4,r2 2f0030: movc5 $0,(r3),$0,r2,(r3) 2f0036: jsb 0x2f0039 (plus a few leftover bytes which make up only a partial instruction) which looks to me like "relocate myself to where I expect to be" code (plus a bit more; the instructions at 2f0024 and 2f0030 are "clear bss" code). This is probably coming from something in the NetBSD bootblock build procedure getting linked before your code. This code will explode if the bootblock size and location are such that the relocation code in the as-loaded location overlaps something in the as-expected location; I hesitate to say that's what's behind the behaviour you're seeing, though. >> I'd also take a detailed look (I'm talking "hexdump -C" level of >> detailed here) at the file being MOP-booted to make sure its >> structure is what you think it is. > It is a netbsd ELF File That is suspicious to me. It's been a while since I played with MOP, but I think it doesn't want an executable such as a.out or ELF. Later messages in the thread make me think that's right, but they also make me think you've already discovered it, so I don't need to elaborate. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 2 19:52:45 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 20:52:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102225951.GA5673@lug-owl.de> References: <50E05B2E.7040906@e-bbes.com> <20121230160041.GA56383@beast.freibergnet.de> <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102225951.GA5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <201301030152.UAA03906@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] made it clear that disassembly was done with my disassembler, >> which is capable of [...] > Well, I'd probably also use it? Where can I find it? There are two places. The most up-to-date version is available as a git repo; the thing you would want to git clone is git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/disas. It's also available by anonymous FTP from ftp.rodents-montreal.org in /mouse/disas/src/. (You should be able to cd /mouse/disas and ask for src.tar or src.tar.bz2; the FTP server can tar (and bzip2) on the fly for you.) If you have trouble with it, I can probably help; I also infer that at least one other listmember has got it working and thus might be able and willing to help. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jan 2 20:06:44 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 21:06:44 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <201301030059.TAA03641@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50DB55D9.3010709@sydex.com> <50DFEBD3.9050600@telegraphics.com.au> <20121230102408.c59b936152f20cb6743f73e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E0A838.4070408@neurotica.com> <076401cde773$54c36800$fe4a3800$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E485B2.3000109@neurotica.com> <201301030059.TAA03641@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <0a2001cde956$faef04c0$f0cd0e40$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Mouse wrote: > > >>> Yes. "I'm a MODERN programmer! We don't have to worry about stuff > >>> like managing our own memory anymore!" > > >>> Morons. > > Well, with that attitude, yes. But sometimes not worrying about memory > management is a right answer. > > >> Exactly. The "key phrase" that I encounter is "I don't want to have > >> to think about...". If someone I'm interviewing says that, the > >> interview tends to end fairly quickly. > > Hear hear! > > I hope you apply a bit of intelligence. There are lots of cases where > "I don't want to have to think about..." is perfectly reasonable. For > example, for almost all the code I write, I don't want to have to think > about the details of the machine language behind them; that's why I > don't write in assembly/machine code. (And, yes, that "almost all" is > an important qualification.) > We're talking about embedded, real-time systems. My team and I write mostly in C but debug in assembly. We get to know almost all of the assembly that the tool chain we use will generate and we structure our C to ensure that the generated assembly matches our expectations. In cases where that causes very unusual C syntax, comments indicating the reasoning are included and there are special comment tags that remind us to check behaviors in certain areas whenever a tool chain change is required. We use a C "style" that might look rather odd to programmers that are not familiar with the reasoning behind it. In general, we disable almost all compiler attempts at optimization. If we need speed at that level, we hand assemble. There is always a delicate balance between the speed and control that we require and the potential portability and reusability that C gives us. We have all of the source to all of the libraries that we use and have no problem stepping into any library call suspected of causing trouble. We have a thorough understanding of all of the threading code (semaphores, mutexes, reader-writer locks, various levels of context swaps, etc.) that we use and we modify it (sometimes very significantly, including but not limited to special purpose schedulers and hybrid coop/preemptive swap behavior). The line between application and OS in most of our products is fuzzy if it exists at all. Anyway, I hope that you can see that, in this sort of environment, we really don't have room for programmers that "don't want to think". Bill S. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 20:10:14 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 00:10:14 -0200 Subject: CFFA300 and Apple III? References: Message-ID: > If do you switch back to an Apple-made memory board, I believe you'll > need the original ROMs. I wouldn't recommend going all the way back > to a 128K board, though. SOS barely fits in that amount of memory - > stick to 256K. Also, you'll need to make sure you get a memory board > that matches your system. Since it's a III+, the original 128K 12V > board won't work in it. And why would he do it with such a great memory board he has? It is just a matter of finding one (socketed) memory chip! :oD You can do a simple troubleshooting to discover which chip is defective without having 4164s there: Number chips from 1 to 16: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Now swap the first and last (1 and 16) and run the memory test No problems? swap 2 and 15, and run the memory test No problems, swap 3 and 14 and so on When you find that the last swap changed the position of memory error, you know that one of these two chips has problems :o) Since you said you have a //e, you can find 4164 as the main board memories of the //e. From slandon110 at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 21:24:40 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 22:24:40 -0500 Subject: FS: Compact Flash Adapter 3000 For Apple II Message-ID: <50E4F9F8.2060602@gmail.com> Im forced to sell my spare CFFA 3000 for Apple II, this allows you to use USB and Compact Flash cards on your Apple II, boot disk images right off a USB Stick 175 shipped in the USA, These are sold out right now Heres a link to what they are http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jan 2 23:41:47 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 06:41:47 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301030152.UAA03906@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102225951.GA5673@lug-owl.de> <201301030152.UAA03906@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130103054147.GA96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > >> [...] made it clear that disassembly was done with my disassembler, > >> which is capable of [...] > > Well, I'd probably also use it? Where can I find it? > > There are two places. > > The most up-to-date version is available as a git repo; the thing you > would want to git clone is git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/disas. > > It's also available by anonymous FTP from ftp.rodents-montreal.org in > /mouse/disas/src/. (You should be able to cd /mouse/disas and ask for > src.tar or src.tar.bz2; the FTP server can tar (and bzip2) on the fly > for you.) > > If you have trouble with it, I can probably help; I also infer that at > least one other listmember has got it working and thus might be able > and willing to help. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B :-)) Yea, strings.h -> string.h and than that gcc-extension... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ba600 at ncf.ca Wed Jan 2 23:51:02 2013 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 00:51:02 -0500 Subject: IBM Displaywriter software - more disks found In-Reply-To: <1700758.YmJsZZYx0X@linux-zlo2> References: <50DA4AB8.9040707@bitsavers.org> <1889114.qgImAe70qr@linux-zlo2> <1700758.YmJsZZYx0X@linux-zlo2> Message-ID: <3828096.62a6FiWoBQ@linux-zlo2> On Thursday, December 27, 2012 01:42:04 AM Mike wrote: > Found 3 disks so far > > 6580-000 Display writer System diagnotiscs (CED013A-1) 08/01/83 WID-01 > SEQ-781 > > 6580-000 IBM 6580 (PDD011-1) 8/20/82 WID-02 SEQ- 148 > > DSV1.1 DOS 3.2 48K slave DISK 2+2 Controller copyright 1979 10/4/79 > > Found another 8" labelled SYSTEM SOURCE but it was from the Dynalogic Found 3 more disks for the Dispaly writer in the pile of work disks. IBM Displaywriter preview diskette Ident S544-2178 5608-SRA vol1 of 1 BIN:chartpack V1 L3 Feat:9042/2981 IDEN: y9GKIC/DEC.83 IBM display writer system training textpacks E, 2, 4 and 6 Diskette name : master S544-2273-0 -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 3 00:36:38 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 01:36:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103054147.GA96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201212301754.MAA13787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101235136.GB10671@lug-owl.de> <201301020144.UAA28089@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102225951.GA5673@lug-owl.de> <201301030152.UAA03906@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130103054147.GA96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201301030636.BAA05019@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> If you have trouble with it, I can probably help; I also infer that >> at least one other listmember has got it working and thus might be >> able and willing to help. > Yea, strings.h -> string.h and than that gcc-extension... The former depends at least somewhat on the OS in question. But I've added an include of everywhere I have an include of . I've also done two other things: (1) I turned VFLAG off entirely in the Makefile, since I usually don't want it these days and this helps others slightly, and (2) I had thought I'd put in a goto workaround for the one place I had labeled control structure, but your remark prompted me to check, finding it had crept back in in the PPC support. So I removed the goto workaround from disas.c, since, since anyone building it needs to have some form of LCS support now, I'd rather go with the more maintainable version of that code. The git repo and the FTPable copy have been updated. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 00:51:09 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:51:09 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 22:06:49 +0100 > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Now it seems I have to analyze how I can build a proper VAX Mop File > > out of the ELF files I have > > MOPCOPY(1) General Commands Manual MOPCOPY(1) > > NAME > mopcopy -- Create MOP image from another executable format > > SYNOPSIS > mopcopy infile outfile > > DESCRIPTION > mopcopy is used to convert a file from another executable format to a MOP > image. > > Elf32 and a.out VAX images are currently supported. > > SEE ALSO > mopchk(1), mopprobe(1), moptrace(1), a.out(5), elf(5), mopd(8) > > AUTHORS > Lloyd Parkes > Jason R. Thorpe > > NetBSD 6.0_STABLE June 6, 2002 NetBSD 6.0_STABLE > > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} ..it where nice...but this mopcopy is nonportable NetBSD-Only Code and I'm trying to build in a cross environment: #ifndef NOAOUT # if defined(__NetBSD__) || defined(__OpenBSD__) # include # endif # if defined(__bsdi__) # define NOAOUT # endif # if defined(__FreeBSD__) # include # endif # if !defined(MID_VAX) # define MID_VAX 140 # endif #endif /* NOAOUT */ #ifndef NOELF # if defined(__NetBSD__) # include # else # define NOELF # endif #endif /* NOELF */ (from mopd/common/file.c and mopcopy/mopcopy.c) This or something comatible seems to be not existing on FreeBSD. Altough the mopcopy should exist on every NetBSD system, the provided netboot file (from the newer Releases) for a VAX on NetBSDs FTP Server is an Elf File and not workingi this way. Think they lost some knowhow in the last years about VAXen. BTW: Jochen, what about the Tek disks? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 01:36:11 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 08:36:11 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130103073611.GC96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 22:06:49 +0100 > > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > Now it seems I have to analyze how I can build a proper VAX Mop File > > > out of the ELF files I have > > > > MOPCOPY(1) General Commands Manual MOPCOPY(1) > > > > NAME > > mopcopy -- Create MOP image from another executable format > > > > SYNOPSIS > > mopcopy infile outfile > > > > DESCRIPTION > > mopcopy is used to convert a file from another executable format to a MOP > > image. > > > > Elf32 and a.out VAX images are currently supported. > > > > SEE ALSO > > mopchk(1), mopprobe(1), moptrace(1), a.out(5), elf(5), mopd(8) > > > > AUTHORS > > Lloyd Parkes > > Jason R. Thorpe > > > > NetBSD 6.0_STABLE June 6, 2002 NetBSD 6.0_STABLE > > > > -- > > > > > > \end{Jochen} > > > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > ..it where nice...but this mopcopy is nonportable NetBSD-Only Code > and I'm trying to build in a cross environment: > > #ifndef NOAOUT > # if defined(__NetBSD__) || defined(__OpenBSD__) > # include > # endif > # if defined(__bsdi__) > # define NOAOUT > # endif > # if defined(__FreeBSD__) > # include > # endif > # if !defined(MID_VAX) > # define MID_VAX 140 > # endif > #endif /* NOAOUT */ > > #ifndef NOELF > # if defined(__NetBSD__) > # include > # else > # define NOELF > # endif > #endif /* NOELF */ > (from mopd/common/file.c and mopcopy/mopcopy.c) > > This or something comatible seems to be not existing on > FreeBSD. > > Altough the mopcopy should exist on every NetBSD system, the provided > netboot file (from the newer Releases) for a VAX on NetBSDs FTP Server > is an Elf File and not workingi this way. > Think they lost some knowhow in the last years about VAXen. > > BTW: Jochen, what about the Tek disks? > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 Things are getting more interresting lately: >>> b eza0 83 BOOT SYS -EZA0 2..1..0..Register contents: r0: 20042f75 r1: ffea00 r2: 1000 r3: ffba00 r4: 0 r5: 0 r6: ffffffff r7: ffffffff r8: 800 r9: 1800 r10: 1800 r11: 0 r12: 200 >> NetBSD/vax boot [1.11 Thu Jan 3 08:34:34 CET 2013] << >> Press any key to abort autoboot 5 Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 02:38:06 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 09:38:06 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> References: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2013-01-02 14:06, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >Arrgl! > > > >The MOP Format seems to be the point. > >I have on my FreeBSd an mopd-2.5.3 from the ports, and in his buildtree > >I found a program mopa.out which is to be used to convert an a.out file > >(wich I don't have) to the mop format. > > > >NetBSD is using ELF too since ages, but I don't know if I can boot from an > >ELF file, maybe I'm stupid but I found no description how to create such a > >mop-file. > > What about putting this discussion to port-vax at netbsd.org? > (you have to sign in ...) > > I really don't mind having this discussion here, actually I love it, > but at the port-vax you get more help booting a vax on netbsd ;-) Yea, tought about this already, but currently I don't habe any other NetBSD installation running or habe access to one. Maybe I put thogether a uVAXII again next time so that I have at least one native system to try .. What's the state of the VS4000/90 and NetBSD? Maybei my VS4000 ist the fastest way (besides of compile time). Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 03:09:31 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 10:09:31 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <201301030131.UAA03834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301030131.UAA03834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130103090931.GE96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Mouse wrote: > > 2f0002: d0 8f 43 00 movl $0x00000043,r2 > > 2f0006: 00 00 52 > > You could make this three bytes more compact by using movzbl. (If you > were using characters in the 0x00-0x3f range, you could use a short > literal and it'd be only three bytes either way.) That was for testing purposes only, yes you can see that I know nothing about VAX Assembler... This was only the try to execute some code as early as possible to see that damn thing doing something... The Startup Code in that Binary is in common/srt0.S where I hacked in this 2 charackter outs, there was nothing before at all. The relocation code was later and I wasn't interested what it would do since I placed 2 nops and a halt after the two putchars. After the mopcopy it worked as it should: 2..1..0..CD ...Halt (or something like this) >>> > > Not that that's relevant to your problem. > > > that 20044f23 is your cons_A_TX w/o that leading > > blbc 1001(r11),0x20044f32 > > (don't know what that bis should do, so I left it aside) > > I think that is probably handling for "no console present" or some > such. Most of the console interaction checks it in some form. Ok, I read something in the rtVAX User Manual about such a console Bit, than this is it. > > > Examining the memory at 2f0000 is showing this: > > [compacted vertically -Mouse] > > > P 002F0000 01 01 D0 8F 00 00 2F 00 > > P 002F0008 5E C3 8F 00 00 2F 00 8F > > P 002F0010 5C EA 2F 00 50 9E AF E8 > > P 002F0018 51 D0 8F 00 00 2F 00 53 > > P 002F0020 28 50 61 63 C3 8F 5C EA > > P 002F0028 2F 00 8F F4 10 30 00 52 > > P 002F0030 2C 00 63 00 52 63 16 AF > > P 002F0038 00 D0 8F 41 > > > I don't have any clue where this is coming from. > > I think I might. This disassembles as > > 2f0000: nop > 2f0001: nop > 2f0002: movl $002f0000,sp > 2f0009: subl3 $002f0000,$002fea5c,r0 > 2f0015: movab 0x2f0000,r1 > 2f0019: movl $002f0000,r3 > 2f0020: movc3 r0,(r1),(r3) > 2f0024: subl3 $002fea5c,$003010f4,r2 > 2f0030: movc5 $0,(r3),$0,r2,(r3) > 2f0036: jsb 0x2f0039 > (plus a few leftover bytes which make up only a partial instruction) > > which looks to me like "relocate myself to where I expect to be" code > (plus a bit more; the instructions at 2f0024 and 2f0030 are "clear bss" > code). This is probably coming from something in the NetBSD bootblock > build procedure getting linked before your code. This code will > explode if the bootblock size and location are such that the relocation > code in the as-loaded location overlaps something in the as-expected > location; I hesitate to say that's what's behind the behaviour you're > seeing, though. Yes, but it was still in the memory from tests with that old "mopboot" file, this wasn't the code I'm tried to download on that rtVAX, the MOP simply stalled before it got the code loaded b'cause the file format wasn't the expected Mop Format ... no error message was displayed. > > >> I'd also take a detailed look (I'm talking "hexdump -C" level of > >> detailed here) at the file being MOP-booted to make sure its > >> structure is what you think it is. > > > It is a netbsd ELF File > > That is suspicious to me. It's been a while since I played with MOP, > but I think it doesn't want an executable such as a.out or ELF. Later > messages in the thread make me think that's right, but they also make > me think you've already discovered it, so I don't need to elaborate. As I already wrote, suspicios to me also, but in NetBSD Distribution the file format changed w/o any notice, so I tought it may be working. It where possible to let mopd convert such things on the fly.. Ok, I hacked up that mopcopy from NetBSD (src/usr.sbin/mopd...) so I could compile it with some hand work (normally integrated in NetBSDs makefile structure) and I have at least no a working FreeBSD/I386 binary that is able to build something that boots.. Now the hard work, that booted NetBSD Loader doesn't do anything, at least I see nothing with tcpdump, so I have further to investigate what is going on with that SGEC and the VAX Busses/Adresses/Vectors and such things. At least the SGEC is supported in the Bootcode as boot/if_ze.c (Standalone routine for the SGEC Ethernet controller.) Some Timers may work too since I see the countdown for the autoboot on the Terminal... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 3 03:42:00 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 10:42:00 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:43:19 -0700 Richard wrote: > Just the way you are phrasing this statement tells me that you don't > understand what Extreme Programming is about. Yes. I have only a very vague knowledge of Extreme Programming. In the environement in that I work it is impossible to deploy Extreme Programming (or any other software engineering methodology) due to suit attitude and inertia of coworkers. Some coworkers and I try to do better, but it is like fighting the windmills. For me, in my day to day reality, Extreme Programming is a monastery up there on top of the ivory tower. :-( p.s.: I realy want to be a monk. But being a monk doesn't pay my bills. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 3 04:05:50 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 11:05:50 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130103110550.cdb6bd82495899f382c922b7@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 3 Jan 2013 09:38:06 +0100 Holm Tiffe wrote: > What's the state of the VS4000/90 and NetBSD? Worked well with 6.0 last time I tried and this was last April. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 3 04:21:57 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 11:21:57 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130103112157.0c44e01fd537928d61e28472@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:51:09 +0100 Holm Tiffe wrote: > Altough the mopcopy should exist on every NetBSD system, the provided > netboot file (from the newer Releases) for a VAX on NetBSDs FTP Server > is an Elf File and not workingi this way. Now, IIRC, mopd internaly detects ELF and converts the executable "on the fly" into something MOPable. > BTW: Jochen, what about the Tek disks? Ahhhhm. Yes. ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 05:48:35 2013 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 03:48:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs In-Reply-To: <20130103112157.0c44e01fd537928d61e28472@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1357213715.33260.YahooMailClassic@web184302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi There are some more XT-IDE V2 PCBs available. Please contact me by email if interested. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 06:57:37 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:57:37 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103112157.0c44e01fd537928d61e28472@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103112157.0c44e01fd537928d61e28472@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130103125737.GB58420@beast.freibergnet.de> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:51:09 +0100 > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Altough the mopcopy should exist on every NetBSD system, the provided > > netboot file (from the newer Releases) for a VAX on NetBSDs FTP Server > > is an Elf File and not workingi this way. > Now, IIRC, mopd internaly detects ELF and converts the executable "on > the fly" into something MOPable. ...but that's not congruent with what I found out now :-( > > > BTW: Jochen, what about the Tek disks? > Ahhhhm. Yes. ;-) > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} Jaja... Gru?, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jan 3 07:56:40 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:56:40 -0600 Subject: 1959 Electronics Experimenters Handbook Message-ID: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> For those of you who like the OLD electronics, here is a free ebook: http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/Findlay_experimenters.pdf Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6005 - Release Date: 01/02/13 From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 09:53:25 2013 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:53:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <201301021843.NAA02273@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1357228405.84897.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 1/2/13, Mouse wrote: > From: Mouse > Someone upthread wrote that "reuseable code is define as code that can > be used without any code changes across many different unrelated > applications"[sic].? That was me, reuseable is an industry term means no source code changes, if you change the source and integrate it into another product it is called "salvage code", which has major implications as far as (re)testing is concern. Almost all code in industry is salvage mainly because, in my experience, any feature of reuseable code which is not perfect typically results in the rejection of the entire software package. You can't do this in hardware design, because most don't have fab shops in their basement. From wheagy at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 10:36:26 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 11:36:26 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? Message-ID: Good idea. Thanks for the plan. I'll give that a try. ---- And why would he do it with such a great memory board he has? It is just a matter of finding one (socketed) memory chip! :oD You can do a simple troubleshooting to discover which chip is defective without having 4164s there: Number chips from 1 to 16: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Now swap the first and last (1 and 16) and run the memory test No problems? swap 2 and 15, and run the memory test No problems, swap 3 and 14 and so on When you find that the last swap changed the position of memory error, you know that one of these two chips has problems :o) Since you said you have a //e, you can find 4164 as the main board memories of the //e. From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jan 3 10:57:03 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 17:57:03 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103073611.GC96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102231522.c97f721e0707c4490ef49f9d@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103065109.GB96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103073611.GC96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130103165703.GA46856@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: [..] Now this looks even better: >>> b eza0 83 BOOT SYS -EZA0 2..1..0.. vax_cpudata: a000006 vax_cputype: a vax_boardtype: a000000 vax_boardtype(sie): a000009 fromnet: 1 >> NetBSD/vax boot [1.11 (Thu Jan 3 16:58:40 CET 2013)] << >> Press any key to abort autoboot 0 SGEC: Ethernet address 00:00:f8:50:93:14 Trying BOOTP Using IP address: 192.168.50.20 myip: (192.168.50.20) root addr=192.168.50.50 path=/data/home/exports/rtvax 2587200+174320 [211280+200960]=0x3071a0 ?06 HLT INST PC = 800E2E9D >>> ...This is the netbsd6.0 Generic Kernel that knows nothing about the console or the Address of the SGEC oder the SLU. Now a Question about VAX Busses, the Card or better the rtVAX300 Processor has the SGEC internal, how should this bus bei called? I've copied that from some Information server, but now I have to work on the kernel... Any Hints? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 3 11:11:21 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:11:21 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > On Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:43:19 -0700 > Richard wrote: > > > Just the way you are phrasing this statement tells me that you don't > > understand what Extreme Programming is about. > > Yes. I have only a very vague knowledge of Extreme Programming. Then I don't see how that makes you qualified to proclaim things about it when you don't know what it is. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 3 11:15:35 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:15:35 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <1357228405.84897.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357228405.84897.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1357228405.84897.YahooMailClassic at web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, steve writes: > --- On Wed, 1/2/13, Mouse wrote: > > > From: Mouse > > Someone upthread wrote that "reuseable code is define as code that can > > be used without any code changes across many different unrelated > > applications"[sic].? > > That was me, reuseable is an industry term means no source code changes, if > you change the source and integrate it into another product it is called > "salvage code", which has major implications as far as (re)testing is > concern. Almost all code in industry is salvage mainly because, in my > experience, any feature of reuseable code which is not perfect typically > results in the rejection of the entire software package. You can't do this > in hardware design, because most don't have fab shops in their basement. I would say that the libraries in boost qualify as a good example of reusable code for C++. Due to the intersection between members of the C++ standars committee and members of the boost community, many things have migrated from boost to the C++ standard, if not in literal API, then certainly in terms of concepts and strategies. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 3 11:18:58 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:18:58 -0700 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > In article , > David Griffith writes: > > > I just stumbled across a sort of show-and-tell of computers used by NASA > > in the 1960s. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrwpXEiTDVk > > I noticed but could not identify: > 07:13 calligraphic graphics system with hidden line removal. Could be > an Evans & Sutherland LDS-1, but might be something earlier. > I've seen this system in several NASA films, but I've never been > able to get any information on the hardware used. Is it possible that this is an IBM 2250 vector display? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 11:46:39 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 12:46:39 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90876638-99A7-46FE-9B90-38AC226D8A7A@gmail.com> On Jan 3, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Win Heagy wrote: > When you find that the last swap changed the position of memory error, > you know that one of these two chips has problems :o) Since you said you > have a //e, you can find 4164 as the main board memories of the //e. 4164 and 41256 are dirt-cheap at Jameco if you live in the US: http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_41662_-1 http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_41398_-1 41256s are even cheaper than 4164s, presumably because the supply is somewhat less depleted. They're both cheap in the general sense because they were EVERYWHERE back then, so there's a lot to pull them from. For folks restoring even older machines, 4116s are readily available there as well for a dollar each: http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_41339_-1 I've seen arcade repair sites charging upwards of $5 each for 4116s. They are considerably hotter and less reliable than 4164s (+12v and -5v supplies, yuck), so it's always good to have lots of spares on hand. - Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 3 12:28:55 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 10:28:55 -0800 Subject: 1959 Electronics Experimenters Handbook In-Reply-To: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> References: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> Message-ID: At 7:56 AM -0600 1/3/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >For those of you who like the OLD electronics, here is a free ebook: > >http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/Findlay_experimenters.pdf Cool! Thanks, though some of us consider that pretty much state of the art! :-) Flipping through it, it would appear to have a couple useful ideas. Actually that site as a whole looks seriously cool, and very useful! There is a boatload of Tube Audio info there! :-) Thank you for the link! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jan 3 13:20:09 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:20:09 -0600 Subject: EZ-SCSI 4.1 Message-ID: <009801cde9e7$586bcf30$09436d90$@com> For those of you trying to deal with old Adaptec cards, like the AHA-15xx series, EZ-SCSI is needed, since they have no on-board controls, others than a few jumpers. The software came with some drives, but is hard to locate now. You can download the entire program here: ftp://82.199.101.173/install/System/Driverzzz/CD/SCSI/Adaptec%20EZ-SCSI%204. 01a%20-%201 Documentation is here: http://www.adaptec.com/en-us/support/_eol/scsi_sw/ez-scsi_4.01/install_sw/ez scsi_401_readme.htm?nc=/en-us/support/_eol/scsi_sw/ez-scsi_4.01/install_sw/e zscsi_401_readme.htm According to Adaptec, this will not work with anything higher than Win95 or NT, but you can use it in DOS or 3.1 Enjoy! Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6005 - Release Date: 01/02/13 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jan 2 14:17:03 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 12:17:03 -0800 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <50E495BF.8010300@jwsss.com> On 1/2/2013 11:52 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > That thing has build something like a sea map reader, like a flatbed > plotter with a lamp from the bottom of the map, pointing at the actual > location of a ship on that map. > Don't know how this may be called in english... Ship position or Course indicator. The course indicator would included if there were a ship symbol or some sort of indication on the map as to the orientation of the ship. If just a lighted blip, then just position indicator. Jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jan 2 18:00:06 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 16:00:06 -0800 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50E4CA06.4040002@jwsss.com> On 1/2/2013 3:43 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, > Jochen Kunz writes: > >> You can apply YAGNI in an absolute manner in your Extreme Programming >> monastery up there on top of the ivory tower. [...] > Just the way you are phrasing this statement tells me that you don't > understand what Extreme Programming is about. I got yelled at because I was not breaking up my assignment to do a firmware for a mouse like device in "extreme" mode, nor did it seem to be useful to do it in "agile" mode. Hard to break down a task to take mouse input and send it to a usb port into "phases" that can be tested individually. Either it is a fricking mouse, or it is a pile of useless C code. I never did get it thru management's head that there wasn't much in between. BTW, it did succeed in turning about 1 1/2 weeks of work which could have been completed in a straight line into about 4 weeks on their schedule with some sort of excuse in their scrum meetings why it wasn't done, or where I was. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 20:18:18 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 21:18:18 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator Message-ID: With lots of help from members of this forum and other friends I made a high-speed paper tape reader emulator from a wire-wrapped interface board and an Emcraft SmartFusion FPGA evaluation board. The interface board plugs onto the Posibus interface slots in a PDP-8/L. I loaded Focal from a BIN paper tape image into a PDP-8/L in about 2 seconds. That equates to about 3000 characters per second. I put some details about the project here: https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/pdp-8-l/making-a-posibus-periperal-emulator I will make an expanded version of the interface board and change to the Emcraft SOM FPGA board. That will give me enough I/O pins to emulate just about any peripheral that you can connect to the Posibus. It would be possible to make an interface board for the Negibus so that the peripheral emulator could be used on earlier PDP-8 systems. -- Michael Thompson From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 3 14:04:44 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:04:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <50E4CA06.4040002@jwsss.com> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E4CA06.4040002@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <201301032004.PAA09065@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Hard to break down a task to take mouse input and send it to a usb > port into "phases" that can be tested individually. Doesn't sound that bad to me. (1) take mouse input; (2) send it to USB port. If the formats are different, there's also (3) convert from input format to output format. (2) may even be divisible into the USB stack and the send-mouse-data-over-USB, unless the USB stack is already provided (eg, by an OS, if there is an OS on the hardware in question). > Either it is a fricking mouse, or it is a pile of useless C code. I > never did get it thru management's head that there wasn't much in > between. Just because you had trouble seeing the "in between" doens't mean it's not there. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 14:06:22 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:06:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > With lots of help from members of this forum and other friends I made > a high-speed paper tape reader emulator from a wire-wrapped interface > board and an Emcraft SmartFusion FPGA evaluation board. Nice. > The interface board plugs onto the Posibus interface slots in a PDP-8/L. The PDP-8/L (and PDP-8/i) has slots for a PC8L (or PC8I). While I applaud anyone who gets a Posibus peripheral working, I wouldn't have thought that you could have just tapped into the slots for the PC8L directly at TTL levels (no open collector bus fiddling). > I will make an expanded version of the interface board and change to > the Emcraft SOM FPGA board. That will give me enough I/O pins to > emulate just about any peripheral that you can connect to the Posibus. That's far more useful than just a papertape emulator. Vince can probably tell you that I've wanted an "RX8L" for some time. I have a PDP-8/L with 12K (via BM08L expansion cabinet) on which I've wanted to run OS/8 for 25 years but have never had mass storage for. Adding an RX01 to a PDP-8/L seemed to be the "simplest" solution at one point. > It would be possible to make an interface board for the Negibus so > that the peripheral emulator could be used on earlier PDP-8 systems. That would also be useful - I have a PDP-8/i that I'd love to get above 4K that I'd also love to run OS/8 on but I figured that the -8/L would happen first since it already had enough core. -ethan From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 14:40:23 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:40:23 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: will this work with an 8a? From spc at conman.org Thu Jan 3 14:41:22 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:41:22 -0500 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <201301032004.PAA09065@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50E4CA06.4040002@jwsss.com> <201301032004.PAA09065@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130103204122.GB26197@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > > Hard to break down a task to take mouse input and send it to a usb > > port into "phases" that can be tested individually. > > Doesn't sound that bad to me. (1) take mouse input; (2) send it to USB > port. If the formats are different, there's also (3) convert from > input format to output format. (2) may even be divisible into the USB > stack and the send-mouse-data-over-USB, unless the USB stack is already > provided (eg, by an OS, if there is an OS on the hardware in question). > > > Either it is a fricking mouse, or it is a pile of useless C code. I > > never did get it thru management's head that there wasn't much in > > between. > > Just because you had trouble seeing the "in between" doens't mean it's > not there. But it's an awfully small "there". I'm thankful we don't have to deal with Agile where I work as I feel the concept is meaningless with respect to the coding we do. My job here is to test several coponents of a much larger product; each component (and there are six we're responsible for) are independent programs that all communicate amongst themselves. Each program is conceptually simple. For instance, one component waits for two particular SS7 [1] messages, does some data lookups and sends a request to another piece over IP; it then waits for a reply on the IP side before responding to the SS7 network. The second component receives the message (from the SS7 component), does some data lookup, and it might in fact send a DNS query [5], send a message to a cell phone [6] and wait for the cell phone to query back to the component before replying to the SS7 component. Perhaps I'm not imaginative enough, but I personally have a hard time seeing how Agile, scrum meetings and test-driven design [3] applies to the project. Heck, it's hard enough testing the fully written components (especially the SS7 component [7]), much less unit testing on individual routines (each component is a "unit"---I can't see any further decomposition going on). It doesn't help that the components are written in C *and* C++ (with respect to unit testing). I best stop before I go into full-on-rant mode. -spc (Running a regression test takes at least a half-hour to set up and that's if everything is running smoothly ... [8]) [1] Signaling System 7---a telelphony network stack [2] [2] and the stack we use *SUCKS* but I've been advised that the SS7 stack we use is, in fact, *BEST OF BREED*, which doesn't bode well for SS7 stacks in general. [9] [3] Okay, I can't tell if the following article series is satire or a genuine attempt at test-driven design: http://xprogramming.com/xpmag/OkSudoku http://xprogramming.com/xpmag/Sudoku2 http://xprogramming.com/xpmag/SudokuMusings http://xprogramming.com/xpmag/Sudoku4 http://xprogramming.com/xpmag/sudoku5 I mean, it's Ron Jefferies, who I understand is a cheerleader for Agile development, but then, he says stuff like: def square_indexes(square_number) result = [] first_row = square_number / 3 first_column = (square_number % 3) * 3 first_row.upto(first_row+2) do | row | first_column.upto(first_column+2) do | col | cell_number = row * 9 + col result.push(cell_number) end end result end That?s a lot of code, and I?m afraid it won?t work. When did 14 lines of code become "a lot"? Is he serious? [4] [4] Please tell me he was writing satire. [5] Caller ID internally is done using DNS records. NAPTR records in fact. Surprising, but on retrospect, it's not a bad match. [6] SMS or proprietary protocol, depending on how fast the SMS network for the vendor is. [7] "One does not simply 'walk' into Mordor," was the response I got when I asked about SS7 networks. [8] Two years and only just last month did I learn that once I open up an SS7 endpoint, I *may* have to wait up to 30 seconds for it to "register" with the network, else sending messages will fail. Did I mention that the SS7 stack we use *SUCKS*? [9] For instance, it maintains static data behind your back. And error conditions? Yeah, you have to crawl into memory *past* a structure to get the actual reason for the error. Seriously. It *SUCKS*. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 3 14:49:09 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 12:49:09 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> On 1/3/13 12:40 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > will this work with an 8a? > > you would need an omnibus to posibus interface board From spedraja at ono.com Thu Jan 3 14:58:54 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 21:58:54 +0100 Subject: 1959 Electronics Experimenters Handbook In-Reply-To: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> References: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> Message-ID: Pretty book. Thanks ! Sergio 2013/1/3 Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > For those of you who like the OLD electronics, here is a free ebook: > > > > http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/Findlay_experimenters.pdf > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6005 - Release Date: 01/02/13 > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 15:08:48 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:08:48 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> References: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: is there such a thing? On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/3/13 12:40 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> will this work with an 8a? >> >> >> you would need an omnibus to posibus interface board > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 3 15:13:42 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 13:13:42 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50E5F486.2000203@bitsavers.org> On 1/3/13 1:08 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > is there such a thing? > M8350 KA8E External positive I/O bus interface > On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 1/3/13 12:40 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> will this work with an 8a? >>> >>> >>> you would need an omnibus to posibus interface board >> >> >> > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 15:19:08 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:19:08 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: <50E5F486.2000203@bitsavers.org> References: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> <50E5F486.2000203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: txs On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 3:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/3/13 1:08 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> is there such a thing? >> >> M8350 KA8E External positive I/O bus interface > > > On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 1/3/13 12:40 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>> will this work with an 8a? >>>> >>>> >>>> you would need an omnibus to posibus interface board >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From vrs at msn.com Thu Jan 3 15:38:28 2013 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:38:28 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Michael Thompson: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 6:18 PM > With lots of help from members of this forum and other friends I made > a high-speed paper tape reader emulator from a wire-wrapped interface > board and an Emcraft SmartFusion FPGA evaluation board. The interface > board plugs onto the Posibus interface slots in a PDP-8/L. > > I loaded Focal from a BIN paper tape image into a PDP-8/L in about 2 > seconds. That equates to about 3000 characters per second. Nice! It is good to see someone actually get a PDP-8 FPGA peripheral of this sort working. A number of folks have talked about it, but not got anything actually running. ( know of at least one success with a PDP-11, though.) > I will make an expanded version of the interface board and change to > the Emcraft SOM FPGA board. That will give me enough I/O pins to > emulate just about any peripheral that you can connect to the Posibus. That should make possible the RX08 emulation that Ethan is looking for. That doesn't even need DMA/Data Break, just both directions of Posibus. > It would be possible to make an interface board for the Negibus so > that the peripheral emulator could be used on earlier PDP-8 systems. Seems like that should be straight-forward. There aren't a whole bunch of working examples of those left, though :-(. I like Posibus, since all the later machines (including Adrian's 8/A) have Posibus as an available interface, and the conversion to/from Negibus is just voltage level conversion. So if one does a Posibus peripheral, it seems like it should be useful on 'most any PDP-8 (DECmate, not so much). It's also dead simple, though it uses a fantastic amount of wire and connectors, especially by today's standards. Good work! Vince From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 3 16:00:16 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:00:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... Message-ID: I've got the first files online here: http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin So far it's only the Kaypro disk images. I'd like it if one of you that knew Don could write up a small blurb I could use as an introduction to the archive. I'll be getting the rest of it online as I have time. Thanks folks. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 3 15:52:15 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 21:52:15 +0000 Subject: 1959 Electronics Experimenters Handbook In-Reply-To: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> References: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> Message-ID: <50E5FD8F.2070109@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/01/2013 13:56, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > For those of you who like the OLD electronics, here is a free ebook: > > http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/Findlay_experimenters.pdf Neat! I'm sure I actually borrowed that from the library and read it when I was a teenager. Some of the ideas and diagrams are very familiar. I used to have a VTVM with a very similar circuit. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 17:33:00 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:33:00 +0000 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Are you scanning them for viruses out of curiosity? I'm curious how many are truly infected vs false positives. -----Original Message----- From: geneb Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:00:16 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Don Maslin archive... I've got the first files online here: http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin So far it's only the Kaypro disk images. I'd like it if one of you that knew Don could write up a small blurb I could use as an introduction to the archive. I'll be getting the rest of it online as I have time. Thanks folks. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Jan 3 17:44:11 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 00:44:11 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Jan 03, 2013 at 09:38:06AM +0100, Holm Tiffe wrote: > emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > On 2013-01-02 14:06, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >Arrgl! > > > > > >The MOP Format seems to be the point. > > >I have on my FreeBSd an mopd-2.5.3 from the ports, and in his buildtree > > >I found a program mopa.out which is to be used to convert an a.out file > > >(wich I don't have) to the mop format. > > > > > >NetBSD is using ELF too since ages, but I don't know if I can boot from an > > >ELF file, maybe I'm stupid but I found no description how to create such a > > >mop-file. > > > > What about putting this discussion to port-vax at netbsd.org? > > (you have to sign in ...) > > > > I really don't mind having this discussion here, actually I love it, > > but at the port-vax you get more help booting a vax on netbsd ;-) > > Yea, tought about this already, but currently I don't habe any other NetBSD > installation running or habe access to one. > Maybe I put thogether a uVAXII again next time so that I have at least one > native system to try .. > > What's the state of the VS4000/90 and NetBSD? Maybei my VS4000 ist the > fastest way (besides of compile time). NetBSD/vax runs just fine inside SIMH. BTDT ;-) It also was surprisingly fast. No idea how SIMH on a 2.7 GHz Athlon compares to real VAX metal speed-wise, though. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 3 17:47:20 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 15:47:20 -0800 Subject: 1959 Electronics Experimenters Handbook In-Reply-To: <50E5FD8F.2070109@dunnington.plus.com> References: <001a01cde9ba$280aaeb0$78200c10$@com> <50E5FD8F.2070109@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <50E61888.5060307@sydex.com> On 01/03/2013 01:52 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Neat! I'm sure I actually borrowed that from the library and read it > when I was a teenager. Some of the ideas and diagrams are very > familiar. I used to have a VTVM with a very similar circuit. Scribd also has a fair number of articles from the olden days. For example: http://www.scribd.com/doc/8104522/Radio-Simplified- --Chuck From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Jan 3 20:52:11 2013 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 03:52:11 +0100 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2013-01-04 00:44:11 +0100, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Thu, Jan 03, 2013 at 09:38:06AM +0100, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > What's the state of the VS4000/90 and NetBSD? Maybei my VS4000 ist the > > fastest way (besides of compile time). > > NetBSD/vax runs just fine inside SIMH. BTDT ;-) > > It also was surprisingly fast. No idea how SIMH on a 2.7 GHz Athlon compares > to real VAX metal speed-wise, though. Some guy started to hack support for Qemu. I don't know the innards of Qemu, but IIRC he told me that it's driving something like a just-in-time-recompilation approach. If it ever gets to a useable state (ie. the ISA is implemented and enough devices to boot something useful), that might be *quite* fast. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Wenn ich wach bin, tr?ume ich. the second : From jon at jonworld.com Thu Jan 3 21:05:45 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 22:05:45 -0500 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:52 PM, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >> It also was surprisingly fast. No idea how SIMH on a 2.7 GHz Athlon compares >> to real VAX metal speed-wise, though. > > Some guy started to hack support for Qemu. I don't know the innards of > Qemu, but IIRC he told me that it's driving something like a What ever happened to the original Dhrystone tests? Since those were designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern emulator may give some apples to apples comparisons between the real big iron and our virtual machines. Especially if it's done with a vintage OS (like BSD 4.3-Something) and its original compilers which probably don't optimize as well as gcc (although, optimization for VAX in a modern compiler? That's another can of worms.) But running a circa 1984 benchmark on an OS written in 1986 and compare that to known big iron (The VAX 11/780 was clocked with a Dhrystone of 1757 per Wikipedia) to simh running on one of our desktops. I think I know what I'm going to stay up late working on. From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 21:26:11 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 19:26:11 -0800 Subject: Identifying power connector for GRiD laptop Message-ID: <50E64BD3.3010908@gmail.com> Hi all -- Picked up an interesting old "laptop" -- a GRiDCase 1537E. This is a Tempest-hardened devicewith (I believe) a 386 processor. Also looks to have an electroluminescent display. Inside there isn't a single exposed wire or circuit board, so any debugging I might need to dowill be a fun prospect. At any rate, I didn't get the AC adapter with this thing and it's got an odd connector that I'm not familiar with. See here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/1537/power.png The connector's abit over 1cm in diameter with three oddly-spaced pins. I'dlike to build areplacement assuming I can work out the pinouts (and find/fabricate a mating connector). Anyone know anything about this machine?Any ideas where to find such a connector? Thanks, Josh From wilson at dbit.com Thu Jan 3 22:31:11 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:31:11 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Paper Tape Reader Emulator In-Reply-To: <50E5F486.2000203@bitsavers.org> References: <50E5EEC5.2030602@bitsavers.org> <50E5F486.2000203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20130104043111.GA27306@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jan 03, 2013 at 01:13:42PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >M8350 KA8E External positive I/O bus interface $300ish on eBay recently (too rich for my blood -- maybe they'd take an offer?) John Wilson D Bit From jon at jonworld.com Thu Jan 3 22:32:34 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:32:34 -0500 Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > What ever happened to the original Dhrystone tests? Since those were designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern emulator may give some apples to apples comparisons between the real big iron and I found the following C version of Dhrystone 1.1 at the following URL: http://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmpe202/benchmarks/standard/dhrystone.c I have simh-780 running BSD 4.3 found via these instructions: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.3_BSD_on_SIMH It's hosted on an OpenBSD VM on my MacBook Pro. It has one CPU assigned: cpu0: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3615QM CPU @ 2.30GHz, 2278.19 MHz I used the BSD 4.3 compiler (not gcc), HZ=60, TIMES, and I did NOT use the register setting. According to the source code similar software configurations on a true 11/780 did around 1400 Dhrystones (the version 1.0 of the code had an error, so I'm going off of the 1.1 results in the file.) kremvax# ./dhry Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000 passes = 12 This machine benchmarks at 40376 dhrystones/second I upped it to LOOPS at 50000000 to get a number that may make more sense, since we're comparing GHZ to MHZ and I think CPUs these days have more on-die cache than some of these systems had in RAM. kremvax# ./dhry Dhrystone(1.1) time for 50000000 passes = 1266 This machine benchmarks at -17034 dhrystones/second OOPS! I think I need to go find a long I left behind somewhere. OK, one more time with LOOPS set to 5000000. ./dhry Dhrystone(1.1) time for 5000000 passes = 133 This machine benchmarks at 37425 dhrystones/second OK, interesting. Finally, I did one more with the REGS setting. kremvax# ./dhry Dhrystone(1.1) time for 5000000 passes = 119 This machine benchmarks at 41811 dhrystones/second So we're looking at 29 times faster. -Jon From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jan 3 22:35:22 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 23:35:22 -0500 Subject: Benchmarking, Dhrystone flaws - Re: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <50E65C0A.7070009@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/01/13 10:05 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:52 PM, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >>> It also was surprisingly fast. No idea how SIMH on a 2.7 GHz Athlon compares >>> to real VAX metal speed-wise, though. >> >> Some guy started to hack support for Qemu. I don't know the innards of >> Qemu, but IIRC he told me that it's driving something like a > > What ever happened to the original Dhrystone tests? Since those were designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern emulator may give some apples to apples comparisons between the real big iron and our virtual machines. Especially if it's done with a vintage OS (like BSD 4.3-Something) and its original compilers which probably don't optimize as well as gcc (although, optimization for VAX in a modern compiler? That's another can of worms.) But running a circa 1984 benchmark on an OS written in 1986 and compare that to known big iron (The VAX 11/780 was clocked with a Dhrystone of 1757 per Wikipedia) to simh running on one of our desktops. Dhrystone was never a great benchmark; it was a poor workload mix and manufacturers famously gamed it, tweaking their runtimes or even their hardware for it. This one is better, and figures are published for quite old machines: http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/c4/fhour.html It does however take a few megabytes of RAM. --Toby > > I think I know what I'm going to stay up late working on. > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 3 22:47:08 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:47:08 -0800 Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: At 11:32 PM -0500 1/3/13, Jonathan Katz wrote: >On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > > What ever happened to the original Dhrystone tests? Since those >were designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern >emulator may give some apples to apples comparisons between the real >big iron and >So we're looking at 29 times faster. About 200Mhz increments on x86 CPU's a decade ago KLH10 was supposed to be about 1x the speed of a PDP-10, do a 1Ghz CPU at that time was supposed to be about 5x. I know Jerome Fine should have some #'s on PDP-11 emulation. I really should finish getting VMS up and running under SIMH on my late-2010 2.4Ghz 8-core Mac Pro. If you're getting 29x on a laptop, that's one seriously usable VAX. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jan 3 22:55:57 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:55:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> What ever happened to the or iginal Dhrystone tests? Since those were >>designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern emulator may >>give some apples to apples comparisons between the real big iron and > > I found the following C version of Dhrystone 1.1 at the following URL: > http://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmpe202/benchmarks/standard/dhrystone.c > > I have simh-780 running BSD 4.3 found via these instructions: > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.3_BSD_on_SIMH Just for grins I compiled and ran this on a Thinkpad T42 and I got this: $ ./drynr ; ./dryr Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 85 This machine benchmarks at 5882352 dhrystones/second Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 90 This machine benchmarks at 5555555 dhrystones/second Did I top out the limits of Dhrystone? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 3 23:13:14 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 21:13:14 -0800 Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <50E664EA.4070206@sydex.com> Anyone compared LINPACK speeds on SIMH as emulated compared to vintage hardware? It's been a long time since I ran that. Does LINPACK exist only in FORTRAN? --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jan 3 23:48:04 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 00:48:04 -0500 Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <50E66D14.8070200@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/01/13 11:55 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, Jonathan Katz wrote: > >> On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >>> What ever happened to the or iginal Dhrystone tests? Since those were >>> designed for VAXen (era) systems, running them on a modern emulator >>> may give some apples to apples comparisons between the real big iron and >> >> I found the following C version of Dhrystone 1.1 at the following URL: >> http://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmpe202/benchmarks/standard/dhrystone.c >> >> I have simh-780 running BSD 4.3 found via these instructions: >> http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.3_BSD_on_SIMH > > Just for grins I compiled and ran this on a Thinkpad T42 and I got this: > > $ ./drynr ; ./dryr > Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 85 > This machine benchmarks at 5882352 dhrystones/second > Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 90 > This machine benchmarks at 5555555 dhrystones/second > > Did I top out the limits of Dhrystone? > Quite possibly. Timings over short intervals will give poor results. What is needed is a better benchmark :) --Toby From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Jan 4 03:52:51 2013 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:52:51 -0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <50E495BF.8010300@jwsss.com> References: <20121230193649.GA12759@beast.freibergnet.de> <20121230222855.GY10671@lug-owl.de> <20121231180247.GA99190@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130101115406.GA140@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E495BF.8010300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <22FEB459E3464B5192B7D6D7554887FB@MailBox> Seeburg Tisch Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s Sent: 02 January 2013 20:17 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: rtVAX 300. On 1/2/2013 11:52 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > That thing has build something like a sea map reader, like a flatbed > plotter with a lamp from the bottom of the map, pointing at the actual > location of a ship on that map. > Don't know how this may be called in english... Ship position or Course indicator. The course indicator would included if there were a ship symbol or some sort of indication on the map as to the orientation of the ship. If just a lighted blip, then just position indicator. Jim From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 4 04:17:16 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:17:16 +0100 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130104111716.af40f485841b265accf281c0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:11:21 -0700 Richard wrote: > > Yes. I have only a very vague knowledge of Extreme Programming. > Then I don't see how that makes you qualified to proclaim things about > it when you don't know what it is. Because you can replace Extreme Programming with any other software engineering methodology. Good ons and bad ons. A software engineering methodology is a tool. There are several such tools. You have to know when and how to deploy what exact tool. Maybe you even have to build your own tool with parts from other tools. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 05:52:12 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:52:12 +0000 Subject: rtVAX 300. In-Reply-To: <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <201301011736.MAA26645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On 3 January 2013 23:44, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > It also was surprisingly fast. No idea how SIMH on a 2.7 GHz Athlon compares > to real VAX metal speed-wise, though. At a guess, I would guess that this question boils down to "just how many orders of magnitude faster is the x86 box?" I'd expect at /least/ two OOM. Three might be distinctly possible if comparing to a really old, low-end VAX chip, such as, say, an rtVAX 300. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jon at jonworld.com Fri Jan 4 07:18:38 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:18:38 -0500 Subject: Vintage vs. SIMH Dhrystones In-Reply-To: References: <20130101180711.GC82355@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301020135.UAA28014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201301020503.AAA28850@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102111053.GA78911@beast.freibergnet.de> <201301021707.MAA01940@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130102195219.GA66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130102210649.GB66210@beast.freibergnet.de> <50E4A5DD.4030600@e-bbes.com> <20130103083806.GD96682@beast.freibergnet.de> <20130103234410.GA18362@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20130104025211.GC5673@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2013, at 11:55 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Just for grins I compiled and ran this on a Thinkpad T42 and I got this: > > $ ./drynr ; ./dryr > Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 85 > This machine benchmarks at 5882352 dhrystones/second > Dhrystone(1.1) time for 500000000 passes = 90 > This machine benchmarks at 5555555 dhrystones/second Probably hit a limit with the size of the 'int' type or similar with 1.1. There is a 2.0/2.1 package out there which will run on more modern gear, but I couldn't get it to compile with the standard C compiler under BSD 4.3. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 07:51:16 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 05:51:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Are you scanning them for viruses out of curiosity? I'm curious how > many are truly infected vs false positives. I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From sales at elecplus.com Fri Jan 4 08:24:35 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:24:35 -0600 Subject: Identifying power connector for GRiD laptop In-Reply-To: <50E64BD3.3010908@gmail.com> References: <50E64BD3.3010908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002d01cdea87$388b24e0$a9a16ea0$@com> The link does not work? I have some Grid AC adapters here, but I don't know if they are what you want without the pic. Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:26 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Identifying power connector for GRiD laptop Hi all -- Picked up an interesting old "laptop" -- a GRiDCase 1537E. This is a Tempest-hardened devicewith (I believe) a 386 processor. Also looks to have an electroluminescent display. Inside there isn't a single exposed wire or circuit board, so any debugging I might need to dowill be a fun prospect. At any rate, I didn't get the AC adapter with this thing and it's got an odd connector that I'm not familiar with. See here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/1537/power.png The connector's a bit over 1cm in diameter with three oddly-spaced pins. I'dlike to build areplacement assuming I can work out the pinouts (and find/fabricate a mating connector). Anyone know anything about this machine? Any ideas where to find such a connector? Thanks, Josh ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6008 - Release Date: 01/03/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6008 - Release Date: 01/03/13 From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 4 08:43:22 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 15:43:22 +0100 Subject: Atlantic research 4500 manuals Message-ID: <004701cdea89$dbcd81f0$936885d0$@xs4all.nl> I'm looking for the manuals or copies of my Atlantic Research 4500 protocol analyzer. If somebody has a copy for me I would be very happy. -Rik PS. I got a spare unit if anyone wants it, it is a but busted and the tape drive is missing but it seems to work. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 10:37:28 2013 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:37:28 -0600 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I've got the first files online here: > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin > > So far it's only the Kaypro disk images. > Thank you so much for doing this. I have a Bondwell 8 bit luggable that I was communicating with Don before. I would be particularly interested in the boot software for this machine when it gets up. Thanks again. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 4 10:56:07 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 09:56:07 -0700 Subject: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming In-Reply-To: <20130104111716.af40f485841b265accf281c0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1356920299.64010.YahooMailClassic@web120002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20130101193248.GA15001@thangorodrim.de> <50E403D4.6070904@brothom.nl> <20130102143216.2ef9228809dd6ee38ddd0e0b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130102230741.d217d01124b69a16eaa35064@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130103104200.675d850af00571b58e6df393@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130104111716.af40f485841b265accf281c0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20130104111716.af40f485841b265accf281c0 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:11:21 -0700 > Richard wrote: > > > > Yes. I have only a very vague knowledge of Extreme Programming. > > Then I don't see how that makes you qualified to proclaim things about > > it when you don't know what it is. > Because you can replace Extreme Programming with any other software > engineering methodology. Good ons and bad ons. Non sequitur. Because all software methodologies are methodologies does not qualify you to make claims about a methodology you know nothing about. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 10:59:06 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:59:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a > legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. certainly not live. But, some PC viruses, such as "Stoned" (which was also modified slightly and re-released as a wannabe for the NON-EXISTENT "Michelangelo") can be dumb enough to try to write themselves to track 0 sector 1 of any disk in a drive of the PC, disunirregardless of whether that disk is capable of transmitting it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 11:12:26 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:12:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atlantic research 4500 manuals In-Reply-To: <004701cdea89$dbcd81f0$936885d0$@xs4all.nl> References: <004701cdea89$dbcd81f0$936885d0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130104090916.D8770@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Rik Bos wrote: > I'm looking for the manuals or copies of my Atlantic Research 4500 protocol > analyzer. > If somebody has a copy for me I would be very happy. > PS. I got a spare unit if anyone wants it, it is a but busted and the tape > drive is missing but it seems to work. http://www.etestmanuals.com/Search.aspx?Mfg=ATR has some Atlantic Research manuals, but they aren't very cheap. I have an Atlantic Research Data-Tek 9600 that I'm trying to part with. (They want $25 for the manual with cschematics for it) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 11:30:51 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:30:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Paxton Hoag wrote: >> I've got the first files online here: >> http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin >> >> So far it's only the Kaypro disk images. >> > > Thank you so much for doing this. I have a Bondwell 8 bit luggable > that I was communicating with Don before. I would be particularly > interested in the boot software for this machine when it gets up. > You're quite welcome Paxton. I just put the Bondwell images up for you. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 11:42:09 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:42:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: >> I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a >> legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. > > certainly not live. > > But, some PC viruses, such as "Stoned" (which was also modified slightly > and re-released as a wannabe for the NON-EXISTENT "Michelangelo") can be > dumb enough to try to write themselves to track 0 sector 1 of any disk in > a drive of the PC, disunirregardless of whether that disk is capable of > transmitting it. Sure, but my virus scanner only complained about the one or two instances of Stoned (which I let it "fix"). As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 4 11:48:12 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 09:48:12 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50E715DC.9090705@bitsavers.org> On 1/4/13 9:42 AM, geneb wrote: > As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. > The issue, which most people don't seem to be getting, was that he used a PC to image the disks. If THAT system was infected at some point, any files touched, including the .TD0 files, could be effected. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jan 4 12:15:01 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 18:15:01 +0000 Subject: 8 bit virii Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> geneb writes: > As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. "Elk Cloner" for the Apple II, according to Rich Skrenta went wild in 1982. Was written up very nicely in a Scientific American article in March 1985 (good enough that I wrote a "me too" virus based on the article.) Very similar to what a IBM-PC guy would call "a boot sector virus" (although really there's a little more than that in either the Apple II or PC-clone cases.) It would be interesting if any of the Apple II disk image archives, have Elk Cloner or lookalikes in them. I once thought about automating such a search as an addition over the effort to index the Apple II disk images floating around on the net. Haven't thought of that in, oh, nearly 20 years now!!! Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 12:32:54 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:32:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <50E715DC.9090705@bitsavers.org> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> <50E715DC.9090705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20130104100008.V8770@shell.lmi.net> > > As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Al Kossow wrote: > The issue, which most people don't seem to be getting, was that he used > a PC to image the disks. Absolutely! > If THAT system was infected at some point, any files touched, including > the .TD0 files, could be effected. Boot sector viruses were much more common, and so simple that they didn't check whether a disk was bootable before writing to it. If written BEFORE he creted the .TDO from it, . . . then track 0 sector 1 within the image of disks with 512 byte sectors, . . . Executable file viruses normally went after .EXE and sometimes .COM files. Did ANY go after .TDO files? For most of Don't alien disk work, the disk was an image, and FILES were not recognizable as such. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 13:04:52 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:04:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <50E715DC.9090705@bitsavers.org> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> <50E715DC.9090705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/4/13 9:42 AM, geneb wrote: >> As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit >> machine. >> > > The issue, which most people don't seem to be getting, was that he used a PC > to image the disks. > If THAT system was infected at some point, any files touched, including the > .TD0 files, could > be effected. If the teledisk images were damaged (possible, but unlikely), the only thing you'd have is a damaged file, not an infection vector. Disk images for 8 inch disk systems and the Kaypro ROM collection are now online. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 13:05:41 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:05:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > geneb writes: >> As far as I know, there was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. > > "Elk Cloner" for the Apple II, according to Rich Skrenta went wild in > 1982. Was written up very nicely in a Scientific American article in > March 1985 (good enough that I wrote a "me too" virus based on the > article.) > > Very similar to what a IBM-PC guy would call "a boot sector virus" > (although really there's a little more than that in either the Apple II > or PC-clone cases.) > > It would be interesting if any of the Apple II disk image archives, have > Elk Cloner or lookalikes in them. I once thought about automating such a > search as an addition over the effort to index the Apple II disk images > floating around on the net. Haven't thought of that in, oh, nearly 20 > years now!!! Ah, I'd forgotten about that one. Thanks Tim. Anything for CP/M? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Jan 4 13:11:34 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 19:11:34 +0000 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873D7E7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Shoppa, Tim Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 10:15 AM > Subject: Re: 8 bit virii I have nothing to add regarding the technical discussion. I just want to point out that there is no such Latin word as "virii". Latin o-stems ("masculines ending in -us in the nominative singular and neuters ending in -um in the nominative and accusative singular", for the classically trained) form their nominative plural with the ending -i. *Only* those o-stems in which an -i- precedes the ending, such as the _gens_ ("family name") _Cornelius_, show a final -ii. (You would refer to all the members of the Cornelius family as the _Cornelii_.) _virus_ is an oddity. It is an o-stem, but it is a neuter, not a masculine (that is, we would expect "virum" if it followed the usual formation rule). Furthermore, it is a mass noun, meaning "slime, poison", rather than a count noun. (Cf. English "milk" vs. "goat"--although it is possible in English to form a plural of a mass noun like "milk", the meaning of "milks" is "kinds of milk, milk from different sources", and Latin does not permit this formation.) So in Latin, _virus_ only occurs in the singular. Now, *in English*, the word "virus" has been borrowed from Latin but is treated by the grammar of English as an ordinary count noun, and the plural is "viruses". I have no objection the formation of a Latinate plural "viri" or "virii", I simply want those making such to do so knowingly. ;-) We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic drift. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 4 13:19:31 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 20:19:31 +0100 Subject: Atlantic research 4500 manuals In-Reply-To: <20130104090916.D8770@shell.lmi.net> References: <004701cdea89$dbcd81f0$936885d0$@xs4all.nl> <20130104090916.D8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <000001cdeab0$6fe1dff0$4fa59fd0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Fred Cisin > Verzonden: vrijdag 4 januari 2013 18:12 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Atlantic research 4500 manuals > > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Rik Bos wrote: > > I'm looking for the manuals or copies of my Atlantic Research 4500 > > protocol analyzer. > > If somebody has a copy for me I would be very happy. > > PS. I got a spare unit if anyone wants it, it is a but busted and the > > tape drive is missing but it seems to work. > > http://www.etestmanuals.com/Search.aspx?Mfg=ATR > has some Atlantic Research manuals, but they aren't very cheap. > > > I have an Atlantic Research Data-Tek 9600 that I'm trying to part with. > (They want $25 for the manual with cschematics for it) > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Thanks, they aren't cheap and they only have the training manual for the Interview 4500 which isn't much of use for me. -Rik From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 13:19:43 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:19:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20130104111801.I8770@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a > legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. "legitimate"?? Placed on the media by a PC, yes. Capable of infecting the 8 bit machine, NO. There did, however, exist some Apple][ viruses From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 13:23:18 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:23:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20130104112001.P8770@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a > legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. although a boot-sector virus might write to track 0 sector 1 of an alien disk, it would be inert to that 8 bit computer. The virus scanner, even if it found the "boot sector" to be infected, would then CRASH when it couldn't understand the alien directory. Graceful recovery from unexpected conditions is not the strongpoint of design in this era. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 4 13:29:37 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 11:29:37 -0800 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <50E72DA1.6000208@sydex.com> On 01/04/2013 11:05 AM, geneb wrote: > Anything for CP/M? :) I've never seen one and I think it highly unlikely. The organization of hardware from one vendor to the next was just not worth exploiting, given a relatively small community of each market segment. Not saying that it wasn't possible, but unlikely that such a virus could propagate successfully. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 4 13:33:01 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 12:33:01 -0700 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: In article , geneb writes: > Anything for CP/M? :) I believe there were viruses for Amiga and Atari ST, both of which were M68K based. Not sure about C=64 and the 8-bit Ataris. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 13:53:00 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 14:53:00 -0500 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>, , Message-ID: There were c-64 viruses, here's a technical document about them, http://hitmen.c02.at/files/docs/c64/C64_Virus_List.txt though I had never really heard of any of these or seen them Dan. > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 8 bit virii > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 12:33:01 -0700 > > > In article , > geneb writes: > > > Anything for CP/M? :) > > I believe there were viruses for Amiga and Atari ST, both of which > were M68K based. Not sure about C=64 and the 8-bit Ataris. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From polemon at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 13:57:08 2013 From: polemon at gmail.com (polemon) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 20:57:08 +0100 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <20130102152838.A54882@shell.lmi.net> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <20130102152838.A54882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130104205708.41058205@polemon.localdomain> On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:29:06 -0800 (PST) Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > So 50 years on from today, what will be the icon for the PC era? > > floppy disk? I'd say floppy disks were a thing of the eighties. Things like Commodore 64 and small computers around that time frame, etc. Iconic of the PC-System (that is, an IBM PC kind of computer) would be a CD, when looking at removable storage media. Tape reels are fun to look at, it looks cool when they're accessed, especially when they're accessing chunks of data at a time, the reels spin in this jerky manner. You usually don't see CDs spinning inside the drives, but they look nice as it is. The prism effect of them makes it pretty Iconic even without seeing them spinning. I would imagine, that flashy gaming equipment would be pretty memorable in fifty years or so. People making fun how people "back then" would decorate and casemod their computers to make them better looking. Same thing with things like Logitech G11, etc. Probably the era after that would be defined by smartphones and tablet computers. -- echo "cbyrzba at cbyrzba.bet" | tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]' From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 4 14:18:49 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 13:18:49 -0700 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>, , Message-ID: In article , Dan Gahlinger writes: > There were c-64 viruses, here's a technical document about them, > http://hitmen.c02.at/files/docs/c64/C64_Virus_List.txt > though I had never really heard of any of these or seen them Interestingly enough, that text file claims that there was a virus for CP/M :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jan 4 14:19:17 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 20:19:17 +0000 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Polemon writes: > Iconic of the > PC-System (that is, an IBM PC kind of computer) would be a CD, > when looking at removable storage media. It's funny how for many, the "IBM PC 5150" is not an "IBM PC kind of computer". I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for Philips CM100 player? Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 14:26:12 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 15:26:12 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 5:00 PM, geneb wrote: > I've got the first files online here: > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin Thanks for the 8" images. I have a XOR I need to make a disk for. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 14:44:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 12:44:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <20130104123811.E8770@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > It's funny how for many, the "IBM PC 5150" is not an "IBM PC kind of > computer". Yeah. WTF is "PC era"? > I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for Philips CM100 > player? I used CD-ROMs [with proprietary interfaces] on 5160s a lot. I tried one (Hitachi?) on a 5150, but the boot floppy was inconvenient Drivers prior to DOS 3.10 were especially awkward. Yes, it could be done, but I would agree with the "don't even try" From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 4 14:46:10 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:46:10 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for > Philips CM100 player? Yes. That was the test platform for an early CD-ROM company I worked for. We also had a Meridian Data CD-Publisher. It wrote 9-track tapes that we sent to PDO Holland. They would send us back some count of CDs along with the glass master. That was what? 1983 or maybe 1984. I had one of those glass masters in my office for a while but I've lost it somewhere along the way. Bill S. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 4 14:46:38 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 12:46:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <20130104111801.I8770@shell.lmi.net> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104111801.I8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: >> I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would find a >> legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. > > "legitimate"?? > Placed on the media by a PC, yes. > Capable of infecting the 8 bit machine, NO. > I say "legitimate" because Norton was notorious for deciding certain H-89 programs were infected with some nasty, windows only virus. As if. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 4 14:50:39 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 12:50:39 -0800 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>, , Message-ID: <50E7409F.9050704@sydex.com> On 01/04/2013 12:18 PM, Richard wrote: > Interestingly enough, that text file claims that there was a virus for > CP/M :-) I'm not saying it's impossible, but all I see there is a "claim" and exactly WHAT version/vendor of CP/M isn't given, nor what the virus does as well as its transmission method. So, as in "free energy" technology, the evidence seems to be hearsay. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 4 14:58:04 2013 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:58:04 -0500 Subject: World's largest Mindset Computer Corp Collection available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E7425C.3090804@atarimuseum.com> Hi all, Been having some health issues as of late and bills are pouring in faster than money is coming in so I have to make a tough decision and sell my Mindset Computer Corporation Collection. I am only selling as a whole as I don't want this collection broken up. I'm gauging interest, please email at: curt(at)atarimuseum(dot)com Many have seen quite a lot of my collection as it was on display at a recent VCF East show and one an award. I have over a 1/2 dozen CPU units, expansion modules, plug in peripheral modules, keyboards, joysticks, mice, tons of software, applications, and games, many are in original boxes and are original disks, I have a huge developers manual, marketing materials, units in boxes, a keyboard in a box, peripheral accessories in boxes (many in never opened/sealed boxes), I have one of the only Mindset software carrying case bags, and much more. Need to put together a more detailed inventory, but it is extensive. Here are some photo's of a good bit of the collection (monitors are not included): http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel2.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel1.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel4.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel3.jpg Will also included domain: www.mindsetcomputer.com with sale... Regards, Curt From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 4 15:02:22 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:02:22 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0c6d01cdeabe$cb373090$61a591b0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for > > Philips CM100 player? > > Yes. That was the test platform for an early CD-ROM company > I worked for. We also had a Meridian Data CD-Publisher. > It wrote 9-track tapes that we sent to PDO Holland. They > would send us back some count of CDs along with the glass > master. That was what? 1983 or maybe 1984. I had one of > those glass masters in my office for a while but I've lost > it somewhere along the way. > As I think about it, I'm pretty sure I have a CM110 (the SCSI interface version) in a box around here somewhere. Bill S. From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Jan 4 15:19:33 2013 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 21:19:33 -0000 Subject: Atlantic research 4500 manuals In-Reply-To: <20130104090916.D8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Rik Bos wrote: > > I'm looking for the manuals or copies of my Atlantic Research 4500 > > protocol analyzer. If somebody has a copy for me I would be very > > happy. PS. I got a spare unit if anyone wants it, it is a > but busted > > and the tape drive is missing but it seems to work. I'm fairly sure I have the ARC manuals for the Interview 7000 Series and the Interview 8000 Series. I don't know if these are close enough to be of use? Let me know if you'd like copies (these are PDFs). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 4 15:27:30 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:27:30 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> On 01/04/2013 03:46 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Yes. That was the test platform for an early CD-ROM company > I worked for. We also had a Meridian Data CD-Publisher. > It wrote 9-track tapes that we sent to PDO Holland. They > would send us back some count of CDs along with the glass > master. That was what? 1983 or maybe 1984. I had one of > those glass masters in my office for a while but I've lost > it somewhere along the way. You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions who went by the name of "Murf", did you? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 4 15:49:56 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:49:56 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0c7d01cdeac5$6fd1f4e0$4f75dea0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions > who went by the name of "Murf", did you? No, not that I remember. Are you talking about someone at Meridian? I didn't work there, I worked for AIRS (Automated Information Retrieval Systems) back then. The guy I worked for was named Eldon. I collaborated with (over the phone) a a guy named Wink at Meridian. What was his last name? Like the chipmunk guy I think... Seville? We were one of Meridian's first customers on the East Coast. Wink wrote their custom drivers. Before mscdex, before Yellow Book, back in the dark days. Bill S. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 4 15:59:38 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:59:38 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <0c7d01cdeac5$6fd1f4e0$4f75dea0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <0c7d01cdeac5$6fd1f4e0$4f75dea0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50E750CA.2080803@neurotica.com> On 01/04/2013 04:49 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions >> who went by the name of "Murf", did you? > > No, not that I remember. Are you talking about someone at > Meridian? I didn't work there, I worked for AIRS (Automated > Information Retrieval Systems) back then. The guy I worked > for was named Eldon. I collaborated with (over the phone) a > a guy named Wink at Meridian. What was his last name? Like > the chipmunk guy I think... Seville? We were one of Meridian's > first customers on the East Coast. Wink wrote their custom > drivers. Before mscdex, before Yellow Book, back in the dark > days. Ok, different gang. Fortunately for you. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 4 15:59:53 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 13:59:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: <50E7409F.9050704@sydex.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>, , <50E7409F.9050704@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130104134832.E13129@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm not saying it's impossible, but all I see there is a "claim" and > exactly WHAT version/vendor of CP/M isn't given, nor what the virus does > as well as its transmission method. > So, as in "free energy" technology, the evidence seems to be hearsay. I agree with Chuck that a BOOT-SECTOR virus would be doubtful for CP/M, due to the lack of standardization of format. It could still have been done for a specific CP/M implementation, such as APPLE CP/M, Commode 128, Kaypro, Osborne, Superbrain, or maybe even 8"SSSD. It would have to be written for a specific one. Which ones attracted that mindset? OTOH, an executable file virus would not be subject to THAT limitation, and could have been done. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 16:19:00 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:19:00 -0600 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> On 01/02/2013 05:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> You expect people in 50 years time to care about anything that happened 50 >> years ago? The current generation seem to think of last week as ancient >> history :-( > > Yeah, just like you and me and everyone else when we were 14. > > People grown to like history. Well, I knew plenty of people when I was that age who were interested in history; they still had to be engaged in the first place, of course - but once they were, what they'd seen tended to stick with them and often prompted them to seek out similar things or more information. I suppose it's that which seems to have been eroded over time; today people will see something that they think is cool for all of five minutes, before moving on to something else. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 4 16:27:59 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:27:59 -0700 Subject: ADD (was: NASA computers circa 1969) In-Reply-To: <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <50E75554.7040005 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > I suppose it's that which seems to have been eroded over time; today people > will see something that they think is cool for all of five minutes, before > moving on to something else. One big difference between now and earlier decades is that "something new" shows up every 5 minutes now, whereas before new things showed up at a slower rate. It's a consequence of exponential technological change creating an exponential increase in novel items. There was a time, within the memory of many (most?) on this list, when you could stay current with the entire field of computer science. When I graduated college in 1986, it was still possible to stay current with the entire subfield of computer graphics. Now it is impossible to stay current with the subfield of computer graphics that is computer gaming. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 16:39:36 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 22:39:36 +0000 Subject: World's largest Mindset Computer Corp Collection available In-Reply-To: <50E7425C.3090804@atarimuseum.com> References: <50E7425C.3090804@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1706800870-1357339175-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-958779899-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Sorry to hear the news. Where is the collection located? (Ny?) Would you like this reposted on vintage computer forums or old-computers.com (you have an account on vcf at least so don't mean to step on toes). Best of luck with the sale :-) I do have a pleasant confidence that there are great collectors out there to take on the project. -----Original Message----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:58:04 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: World's largest Mindset Computer Corp Collection available Hi all, Been having some health issues as of late and bills are pouring in faster than money is coming in so I have to make a tough decision and sell my Mindset Computer Corporation Collection. I am only selling as a whole as I don't want this collection broken up. I'm gauging interest, please email at: curt(at)atarimuseum(dot)com Many have seen quite a lot of my collection as it was on display at a recent VCF East show and one an award. I have over a 1/2 dozen CPU units, expansion modules, plug in peripheral modules, keyboards, joysticks, mice, tons of software, applications, and games, many are in original boxes and are original disks, I have a huge developers manual, marketing materials, units in boxes, a keyboard in a box, peripheral accessories in boxes (many in never opened/sealed boxes), I have one of the only Mindset software carrying case bags, and much more. Need to put together a more detailed inventory, but it is extensive. Here are some photo's of a good bit of the collection (monitors are not included): http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel2.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel1.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel4.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf7/Exhibits/Mindset_exhib_Vendel3.jpg Will also included domain: www.mindsetcomputer.com with sale... Regards, Curt From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 4 16:43:34 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 14:43:34 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload Message-ID: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/series1 more that you ever wanted to know. there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 16:49:42 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 20:49:42 -0200 Subject: ADD (was: NASA computers circa 1969) References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54ADAB0EF54C49718A4FE06466B963C7@tababook> > One big difference between now and earlier decades is that "something > new" shows up every 5 minutes now, whereas before new things showed up > at a slower rate. It's a consequence of exponential technological > change creating an exponential increase in novel items. You can download all 10K+ MAME games, and only play Pengo (1982, SEGA). The rate of news never was SO fast! > There was a time, within the memory of many (most?) on this list, when > you could stay current with the entire field of computer science. > When I graduated college in 1986, it was still possible to stay > current with the entire subfield of computer graphics. Now it is > impossible to stay current with the subfield of computer graphics that > is computer gaming. And each time I set my eyes on that, I still think this is alien technology, and John Carmack is from another galaxy. From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 17:08:14 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:08:14 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50E760DE.6040509@gmail.com> On 1/4/2013 2:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/series1 > > more that you ever wanted to know. > > there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. > Cool beans. Thanks again for all your hard work. Is Series/1 software going to end up there too ? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 4 17:12:59 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:12:59 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E760DE.6040509@gmail.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E760DE.6040509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50E761FB.7020901@bitsavers.org> On 1/4/13 3:08 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Is Series/1 software going to end up there too ? > no I've posted several personal messages to you about this, none of which you've replied to. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 4 17:13:08 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:13:08 -0800 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> References: <50E4A094.6060703@sydex.com> <50E4BD15.7050006@gmail.com> <50E75554.7040005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50E76204.6030605@sydex.com> On 01/04/2013 02:19 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I suppose it's that which seems to have been eroded over time; today > people will see something that they think is cool for all of five > minutes, before moving on to something else. My guess is that 50 years from today, people will view the idea of a personal computer as something so bulky that you could actually hold it in your hands, rather than have it implanted in your skull. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 17:15:19 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 23:15:19 +0000 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50E76287.4040000@gmail.com> On 04/01/2013 22:43, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/series1 > > more that you ever wanted to know. > > there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. > You may be missing SH30-0237-0 IBM Series/1 - The Small Computer Concept - James D. Schoeffler but is a perfect bound paperback so not sure how to scan it..... Dave From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 18:57:56 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 00:57:56 +0000 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50e74f63.47b22a0a.35de.7a4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <50e74f63.47b22a0a.35de.7a4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1518505094-1357347474-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405642116-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> What country/nationality are those names? I'm jealous. They sound straight out of a Tolkien novel. -----Original Message----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:49:56 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 Dave McGuire wrote: > You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions > who went by the name of "Murf", did you? No, not that I remember. Are you talking about someone at Meridian? I didn't work there, I worked for AIRS (Automated Information Retrieval Systems) back then. The guy I worked for was named Eldon. I collaborated with (over the phone) a a guy named Wink at Meridian. What was his last name? Like the chipmunk guy I think... Seville? We were one of Meridian's first customers on the East Coast. Wink wrote their custom drivers. Before mscdex, before Yellow Book, back in the dark days. Bill S. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 18:59:00 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 00:59:00 +0000 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873D7E7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252738DB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873D7E7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 4 January 2013 19:11, Rich Alderson wrote: > I have nothing to add regarding the technical discussion. I just want > to point out that there is no such Latin word as "virii". > > Latin o-stems ("masculines ending in -us in the nominative singular and > neuters ending in -um in the nominative and accusative singular", for > the classically trained) form their nominative plural with the ending > -i. *Only* those o-stems in which an -i- precedes the ending, such as > the _gens_ ("family name") _Cornelius_, show a final -ii. (You would > refer to all the members of the Cornelius family as the _Cornelii_.) > > _virus_ is an oddity. It is an o-stem, but it is a neuter, not a > masculine (that is, we would expect "virum" if it followed the usual > formation rule). Furthermore, it is a mass noun, meaning "slime, > poison", rather than a count noun. > > (Cf. English "milk" vs. "goat"--although it is possible in English to > form a plural of a mass noun like "milk", the meaning of "milks" is > "kinds of milk, milk from different sources", and Latin does not permit > this formation.) > > So in Latin, _virus_ only occurs in the singular. > > Now, *in English*, the word "virus" has been borrowed from Latin but is > treated by the grammar of English as an ordinary count noun, and the > plural is "viruses". > > I have no objection the formation of a Latinate plural "viri" or "virii", > I simply want those making such to do so knowingly. ;-) > > > We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic drift. I inferred the poster of that one within about 2sec without looking at the headers. :?) Now, for entertainment value - correct plurals of: * index * forum * penis * octopus * rhinoceros :?D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jan 4 19:16:16 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 20:16:16 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <1518505094-1357347474-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405642116-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <50e74f63.47b22a0a.35de.7a4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <1518505094-1357347474-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405642116-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <0cde01cdeae2$43148860$c93d9920$@sudbrink@verizon.net> barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > What country/nationality are those names? I'm jealous. They sound > straight out of a Tolkien novel. Wink Seville? Italian, I guess. Sounded plain old "American" over the phone. I never met him face to face. I think Eldon's parents were German. My heritage is German and I vaguely recall having a conversation with him about that. I have no idea about Murf... you'll have to wait for Dave. Bill S. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 4 19:28:43 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 17:28:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: from Liam Proven at "Jan 5, 13 00:59:00 am" Message-ID: <201301050128.r051Shkh28377100@floodgap.com> > * penis Congress -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Okay, who stopped payment on my reality check? ----------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 19:35:49 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 01:35:49 +0000 Subject: 8 bit virii In-Reply-To: <201301050128.r051Shkh28377100@floodgap.com> References: <201301050128.r051Shkh28377100@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 5 January 2013 01:28, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> * penis > > Congress *Roar* Excellent. :?D (And yes, I know, had you been so inclined, you could have done just as fine a job of deconstructing "virii" as Richard, Doctor Linguist...) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 20:40:08 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 21:40:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <1518505094-1357347474-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405642116-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <50e74f63.47b22a0a.35de.7a4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <1518505094-1357347474-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405642116-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jan 2013, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > No, not that I remember. Are you talking about someone at > Meridian? I didn't work there, I worked for AIRS (Automated > Information Retrieval Systems) back then. The guy I worked > for was named Eldon. I collaborated with (over the phone) a > a guy named Wink at Meridian. What was his last name? Like > the chipmunk guy I think... Seville? We were one of Meridian's > first customers on the East Coast. Wink wrote their custom > drivers. Before mscdex, before Yellow Book, back in the dark > days. Wink Saville - yes. There's a name I remember from the early days. Before Meridian, Wink and his partner Ray Klein were responsible for the PCPI Appli-card, arguably the best engineered co-processor board ever made for Apple 2 systems. In particular, the OEM development support package was terrific. The API was elegantly designed and made device driver development a joy. I spent many hours hacking with mine and still hear from folks using drivers I penned back in the day. I was quite new to the field of microcomputers at the time (~1983), but Wink was invariably patient with my naivety and willing to answer questions. I learned tons about computer organization, communication with hardware devices and assembly language in the process. He was truly instrumental in launching me into my career as a software developer and gets my nomination for being one of the All-Around Good Guys! Steve -- From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 20:47:11 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 18:47:11 -0800 Subject: Identifying power connector for GRiD laptop In-Reply-To: <002d01cdea87$388b24e0$a9a16ea0$@com> References: <50E64BD3.3010908@gmail.com> <002d01cdea87$388b24e0$a9a16ea0$@com> Message-ID: <50E7942F.8030802@gmail.com> On 1/4/2013 6:24 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > The link does not work? I have some Grid AC adapters here, but I don't know > if they are what you want without the pic. > > Cindy Croxton Apologies -- my ISP went on the fritz today and brought my server's network connection down. The site should be back up at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/1537/power.png Thanks! Josh > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:26 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Identifying power connector for GRiD laptop > > Hi all -- > > Picked up an interesting old "laptop" -- a GRiDCase 1537E. This is a > Tempest-hardened devicewith (I believe) a 386 processor. Also looks to have > an electroluminescent display. Inside there isn't a single exposed wire or > circuit board, so any debugging I might need to dowill be a fun prospect. > At any rate, I didn't get the AC adapter with this thing and it's got an odd > connector that I'm not familiar with. See here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/1537/power.png > > The connector's a bit over 1cm in diameter with three oddly-spaced pins. > I'dlike to build areplacement assuming I can work out the pinouts (and > find/fabricate a mating connector). Anyone know anything about this machine? > Any ideas where to find such a connector? > > Thanks, > Josh > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6008 - Release Date: 01/03/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6008 - Release Date: 01/03/13 > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 21:09:10 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 01:09:10 -0200 Subject: Don Maslin archive... References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <642B3B96FA8F48D39E09ED266BD5C9BB@tababook> > Sure, but my virus scanner only complained about the one or two instances > of Stoned (which I let it "fix"). As far as I know, there was never a > known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. There are 1 for MSX... http://www.msx.org/forum/msx-talk/software-and-gaming/msx-virus It is a **very** common virus in MSX computers From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 21:11:47 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 01:11:47 -0200 Subject: Don Maslin archive... References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6C1557E4D57147C2887F779573A2436F@tababook> > Sure, but my virus scanner only complained about the one or two instances > of Stoned (which I let it "fix"). As far as I know, there was never a > known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. Another interesting and very informative link about zapp, the MSX virus: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msxpro.com%2Fzapp.html&act=url From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 5 00:02:27 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 23:02:27 -0700 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <50E7C1F3.3010003@brouhaha.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for Philips > CM100 player? I lost track of the thread somehow, so I'm not sure *what* somebody here did. I have some CM100 players but no CM153 cards. I think the player is equivalent to the DEC RRD50, so it should also work with a KRQ50 (M7552) for a Qbus system, but I don't have one of those either. Some years back I reverse-engineered two versions of the CM100 firmware (8051). The interface uses DA15 connectors with four EIA-422 differential pairs. If they had made the interface only a *tiny* bit different, they could have supported eight CM100 drives on a single host adapter. The CM110 is the same drive with an additional board that interfaces it to SCSI, but I've never gotten my hands on one. Eric From bear at typewritten.org Sat Jan 5 04:06:32 2013 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 02:06:32 -0800 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images Message-ID: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> Howdy folks. I have a handful of 5.25" floppy disks for an Ohio Scientific C1, which I would like to image. Anyone have any info on this disk format, or know of a tool that can read them? They don't appear to be in a WD177x-style format... at least not one intelligible to ImageDisk or Tim Mann's catweasel tools. There is at least one C1 emulator out there with support for disk image files, so I have some hope somebody's already done the dirty work for me. If nothing already exists, low-level info on the format would be awesome as then I'd have something to work with, trying to extend Karsten Scheibler's catweasel tools. A few cursory trudges through t3h Googles have borne little fruit so far. ok bear. -- until further notice From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jan 5 05:22:11 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 00:22:11 +1300 Subject: My Commodore VIC-20 on YouTube Message-ID: My Commodore VIC-20 (and the VIC-20 in general) is discussed in this YouTube video (see link). This will be the last video for a while as I return to work on Monday after the Xmas break (bummer). http://youtu.be/hyHNdAhWVmM Terry (Tez) From spedraja at ono.com Sat Jan 5 06:11:39 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 13:11:39 +0100 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: A good bunch of documentation. Could it be possible the develop some kind of emulator with basis on these manuals ? Anyway, thanks for the effort. Sergio 2013/1/4 Al Kossow > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/**series1 > > more that you ever wanted to know. > > there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. > > From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 5 10:39:02 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 11:39:02 -0500 Subject: N8VEM multiple ECB board special Message-ID: <004701cdeb63$2b857a70$82906f50$@YAHOO.COM> Hi Things have slowed down a bit on the N8VEM home brew computing project lately. I'd like to clear some boards off the shelf to free up some hobby funds and make room for new projects. To help move things along a bit I am having the first ever multiple ECB board "free shipping special" So far it has been pretty popular. Please see the note on the mini-68000 ECB system though regarding the minimum system. More information here: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/browse_thread/thread/f240fa29ece4cfae Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 5 11:12:09 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 12:12:09 -0500 Subject: N8VEM and S100computers.com S-100 board status Message-ID: <005801cdeb67$e503e910$af0bbb30$@YAHOO.COM> Hi A quick status of N8VEM and S100computers.com S-100 board PCB New S-100 LAVA PCBs are on their way and should be here in a week or less. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm Reordered respin S-100 Console IO PCBs should be here in mid to late Jan 2013 http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Console%20IO%20Board/Console%20 IO%20Board.htm Reordered S-100 regular prototyping boards (just PTH area, no additional circuitry) will be ordered mid-Jan 2013 with estimated delivery early to mid Feb 2013 http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20regular %20prototyping%20board Finally, a couple of new S-100 PCBs are in work and my plan is to order them in Feb 2013 starting with the S-100 68K CPU board. Please note the V3 version of the S-100 68K has the chips in horizontal layout and has a completely different appearance than the prototype boards on the webpage. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/68000%20Board/68K%20CPU%20Board .htm Immediately followed by the S-100 80286 CPU board (Don't be scared of the prototype board images since the final board has all the fixes and is clean) http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/80286%20Board/80286%20CPU%20Boa rd.htm If you are interested in any of the above boards please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Please note this is a hobbyist project and purely for entertainment/educational purposes. By getting these PCBs you are participating in their development at the N8VEM home brew computing project. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, there are a couple of S-100 board projects that are languishing "on the back burner" and would like any ideas, comments, thoughts, and/or questions as to what to do with them. The S-100 VDP V2 (V9938 and AY-3-8910 color graphics and sound generator) and the S-100 uPD7220 GDC (accelerated graphics VGA monitor compatible - not register compatible - 640x480 or 800x600 at 16 colors - 4 bit planes). From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat Jan 5 15:02:35 2013 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 22:02:35 +0100 Subject: Bootdisk for Vector graphics MZ wanted... Message-ID: <50E894EB.5000407@bluewin.ch> Since I don't have hardsectored floppies, I would hope that someone here could help out ? I am located in Switzerland,costs will be covered . Jos Dreesen From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jan 5 15:45:42 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 13:45:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: older Yamaha keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <201212201552.qBKFqJbP20185190@floodgap.com> <73D2D9FE33DA4AD2AD5D02C3B365C421@tababook> <20121220131846.B64191@shell.lmi.net> <1BD7C87388C2413383CCE723B6AD8D0D@tababook> <20121220145800.D64191@shell.lmi.net> <1356117018.68566.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201212211952.OAA19388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1356122044.84680.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1357422342.66187.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I can't believe these skeevy atheists. Not all are, but his type are. What's this with a Jew on a stick? You think you win people's respect when you say something like that??? You really are disturbed. Statements like this fully demonstrate that. I will repeat not every atheist is like him, so I hate to paint every one w/a broad brush. But I repeat atheists of his stripe are poor excuses for humanity. ?Oh and you just absolutely radiate intelligence, don't you? ?What did this conversation have to do w/you anyway??? ?There's obviously something bothering you. Bothering you terribly. Curious what that might be. ?I don't (generally) demean people's lack of belief. I'm just utterly persuaded that this existence that we share is a product of a vast mind. Not the result of a vast number of random events, which to me is just painfully stupid (whoops). So you're referring to the Creator as a pixie does little to dissuade me of this rational. ?You really owe the list an apology. I've debated w/atheists for well over 5 years, but have yet to hear any sort of rhetoric approaching that. You win the prize hands down. Congratulations. ________________________________ From: Liam Proven To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 2:33 PM Subject: Re: older Yamaha keyboards On 21 December 2012 20:34, Chris Tofu wrote: > > C: Well utter nonsense usually does have that affect. You're point I'll take it is that Satan/Lucifer is a *product* of the Jewish/Christian scriptures. But conflating Christianity w/Satanism leaves something to be desired as to valid logic. That's ok though. The pagans think they have it up on us as a result somehow. I could take the time to allude to the barbaric practices of most of the early forms of paganism, stuff which modern pagans take pains to separate themselves from (hence the neo-). It's awful nice when you can alter your beliefs to suit the times, and dispense with all that nastier stuff. >? I know a pagan lady. Bat crap crazy she is. She said Thor was one of her favorites deities (along w/"Squat", who is alleged to be something of a patron saint of automobile financing. You ask her). So I asked her does she really believe Thor was a real *god*. She stated to the effect that all those old world gods were manifestations/representations of "the Divine". So why aren't they all just manifestations of ol' Beelzebub I ask? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. There's no point trying to explain it to you - you wouldn't understand; our previous email conversations have demonstrated that. As a happily god-free atheist, I've been called a satanist before, myself. The typical god-botherer is too stupid to understand that not believing in their preferred fictional sky-fairy doesn't mean that I believe in a different fictional sky-fairy. The notion of not believing that there are /any/ fictional sky-fairies at all is too difficult for many of them to comprehend. And since you believe that your mythical magic pixie-cum-dead-Jew-on-a-stick made the universe in a week 6000 years ago, that very very strongly suggests that you are not one of the smarter ones. :?D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Jan 4 12:07:08 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 10:07:08 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50E71A4C.3080502@jwsss.com> On 1/4/2013 9:42 AM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: >>> I would be astonished if any (and I mean _any_) virus scanner would >>> find a >>> legitimate virus on any media consumed by 8 bit computers. >> >> certainly not live. >> >> But, some PC viruses, such as "Stoned" (which was also modified slightly >> and re-released as a wannabe for the NON-EXISTENT "Michelangelo") can be >> dumb enough to try to write themselves to track 0 sector 1 of any >> disk in >> a drive of the PC, disunirregardless of whether that disk is capable of >> transmitting it. > > Sure, but my virus scanner only complained about the one or two > instances of Stoned (which I let it "fix"). As far as I know, there > was never a known instance of a virus on an 8 bit machine. > > g With all the targeting of industrial equipment there may be some which target it via trying to poke at serial and other interfaces from the PC that the main infection runs on. Such would probably incorporate exploits for input and communication to attached devices to inject code into the targets with the objective to crash it. I don't know how many attached devices running industrial equipment use the 8080 and 6502, etc., but there are surely some. Perhaps a PC virus targeting such would set of a modern day virus scan. It would hardly be a threat, and such viruss would not be in the disk images for 8080 systems. The sequences that the scanner would be looking for in PC binaries might be however. "fixing" an image Don has would likely render it damaged or useless. Jim From pinball at telus.net Fri Jan 4 16:21:46 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 14:21:46 -0800 Subject: 3.25 alingment? Message-ID: <50E755FA.50404@telus.net> Looking to test/service/align a number (10 or so) of double-sided double-density 3.25 floppy drives and hoping there is someone here in Canada who has the alignment discs that I could borrow/buy. These are for setting up some of my older computerized microprocessor test gear (Fluke mostly)... Suggestions on aligning are also greatly appreciated! Thanks! John :-#)# From pinball at telus.net Fri Jan 4 17:16:15 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:16:15 -0800 Subject: 3.5 alignment? (~~opps, not 3.25!) Message-ID: <50E762BF.1080402@telus.net> Looking to test/service/align a number (10 or so) of double-sided double-density 3.5 floppy drives and hoping there is someone here in Canada who has the alignment discs that I could borrow/buy. These are for setting up some of my older computerized microprocessor test gear (Fluke mostly)... Suggestions on aligning are also greatly appreciated! Thanks! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sat Jan 5 14:29:11 2013 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:29:11 +0100 Subject: Bootdisk for Vector graphics MZ wanted... Message-ID: <50E88D17.3030504@bluewin.ch> Since I don't have hardsectored floppies, I would hope that someone here could help out ? I am located in Switzerland,costs will be covered . Jos Dreesen From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 16:19:03 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 22:19:03 +0000 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50E8A6D7.5070601@gmail.com> On 05/01/2013 12:11, SPC wrote: > A good bunch of documentation. Could it be possible the develop some kind > of emulator with basis on these manuals ? I think there is enough info in the SH30-0237 to make some kind of start but there isn't a complete instruction set. If any one is interested I'll ry and scan it, but its going to take some time... > Anyway, thanks for the effort. > > Sergio > > 2013/1/4 Al Kossow > >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/**series1 >> >> more that you ever wanted to know. >> >> there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. >> >> From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 5 16:55:59 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 14:55:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3.25 alingment? In-Reply-To: <50E755FA.50404@telus.net> References: <50E755FA.50404@telus.net> Message-ID: <20130105142835.F29692@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, John Robertson wrote: > Looking to test/service/align a number (10 or so) of double-sided > double-density 3.25 floppy drives and hoping there is someone here in > Canada who has the alignment discs that I could borrow/buy. > These are for setting up some of my older computerized microprocessor > test gear (Fluke mostly)... > Suggestions on aligning are also greatly appreciated! > Thanks! > John :-#)# 3.25" alignment disks are EXTREMELY rare. MUCH, MUCH, MUCH harder to get than 3.5" When I acquired MicroPro's (Wordstar) 3.25" disks and drives, I was pleasantly surprised to find that it included some 3.25" alignment disks. UNFORTUNATELY, I was then horrified to find out that some (prob'ly all) of those alignment disks had been FORMATted and used for data! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 5 17:24:36 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 15:24:36 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <50E71A4C.3080502@jwsss.com> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> <50E71A4C.3080502@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50E8B634.1090306@sydex.com> On 01/04/2013 10:07 AM, jim s wrote: > With all the targeting of industrial equipment there may be some which > target it via trying to poke at serial and other interfaces from the PC > that the main infection runs on. Such would probably incorporate > exploits for input and communication to attached devices to inject code > into the targets with the objective to crash it. I don't know how many > attached devices running industrial equipment use the 8080 and 6502, > etc., but there are surely some. Perhaps a PC virus targeting such > would set of a modern day virus scan. One aspect of a computer virus is that there must be a means to propagate the thing--not something that you'll easily find in old 8-bit industrial equipment. I've never heard of a virus to infect a wire EDM rig for example. Much of the early (pre-web) infection was done through the "Any software title for $3" type of wire-rack sales as well use of BBS downloads. My understanding of Stuxnet is that it was smuggled into the facility via USB pen drive, not by the usual Internet route. --Chuck From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 5 17:45:54 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 18:45:54 -0500 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <20130105234554.GA25907@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Sat, Jan 05, 2013 at 02:06:32AM -0800, r.stricklin wrote: > Howdy folks. > > I have a handful of 5.25" floppy disks for an Ohio Scientific C1, which > I would like to image. Anyone have any info on this disk format, or know > of a tool that can read them? > For the 8" disks OSI used a serial chip to write data to the drive. The drive had an internal data separator. I think the 5.25" used the same format. Its incompatible with any normal disk controller chip. Only raw transition tools could image the disk. If you have an OSI a dump program is here http://osiweb.org/software.html This thread previously discussed it. It seemed to conclude none of the current tools have been programmed to decode that format. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2012-February/312129.html The source code for the dumper may give you info on decoding the format. I may be able to dig up where the 8" format is documented if it helps. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 03:18:35 2013 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 01:18:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for info on Apple II card- Labnet 488 Message-ID: <1357463915.44404.YahooMailNeo@web163004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi all, I recently acquired Labnet 488 card by Innovations in Computing, circa 1978.? This appears to be an IEEE-488 interface based on the Motorola 68488 chip.? Does anybody have any info on this card, or even better, has anybody seen one of these in use?? It would be cool to locate manuals and/or software, and actually put this sucker to use. Dave From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 03:47:42 2013 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 01:47:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <1357465662.6259.YahooMailNeo@web163006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> bear (r.stricklin) wrote: Howdy folks. > >I have a handful of 5.25" floppy disks for an Ohio Scientific C1, which I would like to image. Anyone have any info on this disk format, or know of a tool that can read them? They don't appear to be in a WD177x-style format... at least not one intelligible to ImageDisk or Tim Mann's catweasel tools. There is at least one C1 emulator out there with support for disk image files, so I have some hope somebody's already done the dirty work for me. > The winOSI emulator uses a raw disk dump format.? The dump can be produced, as David G. pointed out, using the disk dump utility. For a detailed discussion of the disk format, look at The OSI Gazette, Compute! #20, Jan 1982.? The Gazette in issue #21 contains a discussion of the disk routines.? Both are available at http://www.osiweb.org/journals.html#Computes_Gazette OSI (Meaning Mike Cheiky) used a regular UART to write the data stream to the disk, using discrete TTL logic and one-shots to do the MFM encoding and decoding, and a standard PIA chip to drive the floppy control lines, managing the disk state in software.? This allowed OSI to have a disk interface before the standard chips were available.? (At the time, S100 systems handled disk interfacing with boards full of TTL; Apple handled it by having Woz and a few chips; and CBM hoped to use the GPIB interface to get a disk for free, but it didn't work out that way).? So all in all, you have to hand it to Cheiky for coming up with a cheap solution based on commodity chips--not as clever as Woz's interface, but since OSI had less cloud with drive manufacturers than apple, it was a win to be able to use a standard drive. If you make any images, I would be very interested in getting copies of them for the archive. Best regards, Dave From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 6 09:37:53 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 10:37:53 -0500 Subject: FW: 68360 - status In-Reply-To: <8487B306-9338-4BAB-B773-ADF32C3F4F21@r2d2.org> References: <002a01cdcc4c$547c5e70$fd751b50$@YAHOO.COM> <00fb01cdcd00$3466d160$9d347420$@YAHOO.COM> <002f01cde542$a7f92e20$f7eb8a60$@YAHOO.COM> <8487B306-9338-4BAB-B773-ADF32C3F4F21@r2d2.org> Message-ID: <010101cdec23$e804c690$b80e53b0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi, If there are any builders who would like to participate in the MC68040 SBC project please let me know. We are working on an intermediate project at the moment based on the MC68360 which is the integrating glue for the MC68040 SBC. The MC68360 is the all-important piece that has to work well before even considering the MC68040 CPU since it is a standalone processor by itself. There are some spare MC68360 P1 PCBs remaining (see the excerpted status update below) and the basic board seems to be working. It is booting from the ROM and partially initializing. More work is underway to further initialize the MC68360 chip subsystems like timers, UARTs, etc. The plan is to integrate a Propeller based IO subsystem (VGA display, PS/2 keyboard, microSD mass storage), DRAM, and Flash memories to the final SBC. This is an ambitious project and will take quite a bit of time so if there are any experienced MC68040/MC68360 builders that would like to contribute your help would be greatly appreciated. Additional information is posted below. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=68040%20SBC http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=MC68360%20P1 Similar to other N8VEM home brew computing project boards these are free/open source designs including hardware, software, and other related information. Please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM if interested. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch -----Original Message----- [snip] To: Andrew Lynch Subject: Re: 68360 - status Hi Andrew! I have made quite a bit of progress - if you look at the steps on 9-13 through 9-16 of the User Manual I am at step 11 so I only have a few steps left. [snip] BTW - I have I think 4 extra boards (the other place sent me boards anyways) so if people want to join in the fun, I can forward you the boards. We are also going to have to chat on how we proceed from here - looking at the stuff Alan sent and other errata - the 68040 is not going to be a "glue less" implementation and will require some GALS or a CPLD. [snip] From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 6 11:51:09 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 12:51:09 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE/SD bridge board project Message-ID: <013601cdec36$84226c50$8c6744f0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi Recently there has been a bit of renewed interest and an uptick in activity in the N8VEM SCSI to IDE/SD bridge board project. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=SCSI%20to%20IDE%2FSD%20prototypes There are still some prototype boards available in case anyone would like to help bring this project to completion. The prototype boards do work in that they are booting the debug monitor (Zapple) and the IO subsystems are checking out. What we need is the programming to make the Z53C80 SCSI controller work in target mode with the SCSI host mode controller. This board project will be free/open source with software, hardware, and other design information posted to the public. Please contact me if you are interested in helping out at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM I realize there are many ways to accomplish this task and the Z80 based embedded controller board is but one. There may be other valid approaches however none are free/open source projects AFAIK. Please post a link if I am mistaken. Any lessons learned and/or design information from this project could be readily applied to a follow-on project potentially using different technologies. However I think it is important to get this first step working before moving on to another design. I am willing to support a follow-on design once we get this one working properly. I believe with a quick Z80 (8 MHz or greater) there should be sufficient through put for most SCSI-1 applications. It will never be a "speed demon" but the older vintage/classic/hobbyist SCSI-1 machines probably don't need one either. Many of the aging SCSI-1 machines are going to go "offline" forever if the supply of SCSI-1 drives dries up. Thanks in advance for your consideration. Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From ryan at hack.net Sun Jan 6 12:04:18 2013 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:04:18 -0600 Subject: FW: 68360 - status In-Reply-To: <010101cdec23$e804c690$b80e53b0$@YAHOO.COM> References: <002a01cdcc4c$547c5e70$fd751b50$@YAHOO.COM> <00fb01cdcd00$3466d160$9d347420$@YAHOO.COM> <002f01cde542$a7f92e20$f7eb8a60$@YAHOO.COM> <8487B306-9338-4BAB-B773-ADF32C3F4F21@r2d2.org> <010101cdec23$e804c690$b80e53b0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <50E9BCA2.2040900@hack.net> I completed an 060 "SBC" two years ago- 32-bit design since the 060 has no dynamic bus sizing. Flash, SRAM, UARTs and ethernet. What do you need help with? -Ryan Brooks n9ybx On 1/6/13 9:37 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > If there are any builders who would like to participate in the MC68040 SBC > project please let me know. > > We are working on an intermediate project at the moment based on the MC68360 > which is the integrating glue for the MC68040 SBC. The MC68360 is the > all-important piece that has to work well before even considering the > MC68040 CPU since it is a standalone processor by itself. > > There are some spare MC68360 P1 PCBs remaining (see the excerpted status > update below) and the basic board seems to be working. It is booting from > the ROM and partially initializing. More work is underway to further > initialize the MC68360 chip subsystems like timers, UARTs, etc. > > The plan is to integrate a Propeller based IO subsystem (VGA display, PS/2 > keyboard, microSD mass storage), DRAM, and Flash memories to the final SBC. > This is an ambitious project and will take quite a bit of time so if there > are any experienced MC68040/MC68360 builders that would like to contribute > your help would be greatly appreciated. Additional information is posted > below. > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=68040%20SBC > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=MC68360%20P1 > > Similar to other N8VEM home brew computing project boards these are > free/open source designs including hardware, software, and other related > information. > > Please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM if interested. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > -----Original Message----- > [snip] > > To: Andrew Lynch > Subject: Re: 68360 - status > > Hi Andrew! > > I have made quite a bit of progress - if you look at the steps on 9-13 > through 9-16 of the User Manual I am at step 11 so I only have a few steps > left. > > [snip] > > BTW - I have I think 4 extra boards (the other place sent me boards anyways) > so if people want to join in the fun, I can forward you the boards. We are > also going to have to chat on how we proceed from here - looking at the > stuff Alan sent and other errata - the 68040 is not going to be a "glue > less" implementation and will require some GALS or a CPLD. > > [snip] > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 6 13:09:30 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 19:09:30 -0000 Subject: DEC LAVC SCA Specification Message-ID: <09fd01cdec41$5c826050$158720f0$@ntlworld.com> I have been trying to find if there is a published spec for the DEC LAVC SCA protocol. The reason I want to find it is that I want to see if I can work out why my MicroVAX II is failing the net boot, it times out after a while and falls out of the cluster. I suspect I have a hardware problem, but would like to use a packet sniffer to work out what is going on. Is such a document available? Regards Rob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 6 13:22:15 2013 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:22:15 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> I found my S/1 diskettes and a few docs that were not on your list. I also found a few oddball manuals that you might be interested in. I'll bring them over next week. Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 6 13:57:32 2013 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:57:32 -0800 Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload In-Reply-To: <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <50E9D72C.20503@sbcglobal.net> Whoops, this should have gone to Al directly. Sorry about that. Bob On 1/6/2013 11:22 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I found my S/1 diskettes and a few docs that were not on your list. > > I also found a few oddball manuals that you might be interested in. > > I'll bring them over next week. > > Bob > From wheagy at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 15:32:07 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 16:32:07 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? Message-ID: A quick update on my Apple III. I used the BNK, ADR and Exp/Got info from the Apple III RAM test to narrow down the bad RAM chip. I replaced it with one from an Apple II and it worked. The RAM test completes successfully, but it does do one odd thing shown in this pic... http://i.imgur.com/VP98h.jpg Row 7 gets dashes across it during the second pass and all subsequent passes. The test, however, continues normally. I ran it over 10 passes with no problems. Any ideas what the dashes mean? On the downside, my III still doesn't boot. It does pretty much what it did before. WIth an SOS disk in the drive, it spins for about 3 seconds, then nothing. The demo disk does the same thing. The III+ diagnostic disk that used to boot, doesn't boot anymore and fails with an IO error message. This makes me think again that there may be a floppy drive issue. Is the drive calibration method that was mentioned previously the one that is outlined in the Sun Remarketing Do It Yourself Guide for adjusting Apple III drive speed...that uses a 60 Hz light source? If so, I guess that's my next task to try to revive this machine. Thanks, Win From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 15:58:57 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 16:58:57 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist CP/M home brew computer PCBs available! Message-ID: <001601cdec59$2096f160$61c4d420$@yahoo.com> Hi If funds and/or PayPal is an issue, I am willing to barter items instead. We can make trades for certain computer parts, electronic components, tools, metals, coins, unused gift cards, shipping materials, scrap, etc. Please let's discuss! Many times I have just sent (gratis) PCBs to known N8VEM builders especially those working on tough problems or less popular areas that need attention. Times are tough for many these days. Please don't let a lack of cash or issues with PayPal limit your participation. Thanks and have a happy holidays! Andrew Lynch From radioengr at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 17:22:26 2013 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 16:22:26 -0700 Subject: KS10 (PDP-10) FPGA Status Message-ID: <50EA0732.3000906@gmail.com> There has been significant progress over the Holidays. All the Basic Instruction Diagnostics now execute successfully. Many of the Advanced Instruction Diagnostics also execute successfully - the Advanced Diagnostics that fail, do so because they require support from the Diagnostic Monitor (SMMON) which is not 'linked in' at this time. I have a design roughed-in for a RH-11 Massbus Controller supporting 8 RP06 Disk Drives. All 8 RP06s disks use a single 8GB Secure Digital (SD) Disk Card for media. There is still a lot to do before the Disk IO will be ready to test. I've also implemented an DZ-11 8-port Terminal Multiplexer, and the KS10-Backplane-to-Unibus IO Bridges. If anyone knows where to find the KS10 DZ-11 Diagnostic DSDZA Source code, please contact me. I have verified that I can use the same 'bits-on-disk' format as SIMH. That will allow the KS10 FPGA to use any of the freely available disk images without modification. You also should be able to use the SIMH Tape IO facilities to create your own disk images. For complete information, please visit: http://www.techtravels.org/KS10FPGA/ Rob Doyle doyle (at) cox (dot) net From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 17:54:45 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 18:54:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Jan 2013, Win Heagy wrote: > A quick update on my Apple III. I used the BNK, ADR and Exp/Got info from > the Apple III RAM test to narrow down the bad RAM chip. I replaced it with > one from an Apple II and it worked. The RAM test completes successfully, > but it does do one odd thing shown in this pic... > http://i.imgur.com/VP98h.jpg > Row 7 gets dashes across it during the second pass and all subsequent > passes. The test, however, continues normally. I ran it over 10 passes > with no problems. Any ideas what the dashes mean? > > On the downside, my III still doesn't boot. It does pretty much what it did > before. WIth an SOS disk in the drive, it spins for about 3 seconds, then > nothing. The demo disk does the same thing. The III+ diagnostic disk that > used to boot, doesn't boot anymore and fails with an IO error message. > This makes me think again that there may be a floppy drive issue. Is the > drive calibration method that was mentioned previously the one that is > outlined in the Sun Remarketing Do It Yourself Guide for adjusting Apple > III drive speed...that uses a 60 Hz light source? If so, I guess that's my > next task to try to revive this machine. Almost all the A3 drives that have come my way were malfunctioning. Best bet is to disassemble them and carefully clean and lube. First, use some canned air to blow out all the dust bunnies. The original grease used on the head assembly rails and the spiral-cut plastic stepper wheel solidifies over the years. I usually use a tiny bit of WD-40 on a swab to remove the old lubricant, then a bit of Tri-Flow to replace it. A speed adjustment may very well be needed, but another problem area is the two trimpots on the top of the drive circuit board. They tend to grow oxide and become intermittant. Mark the position of the pots with a felt-tipped pen, then wiggle them with a screwdriver until the little gob of locking compound breaks. Squirt a small amount of non-residue control cleaner in the side and work them through their rotation a few times. Reset to the marked position. You can lock them in place again with a dab of nail polish, but don't do this until you know that things are working again! Reseat all the chips on the board and check closely for "black pin" syndrome. For some reason, the chips in the disk drives seem more prone to this (more exposure to humidity?) If you see this, pull all of them and take a contact cleaning tool to the legs. Finally, take a swab and carefully clean the head with isopropyl alcohol. I've successfully repaired four or five drives in this manner. Steve -- From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 6 18:23:25 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 17:23:25 -0700 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <1357465662.6259.YahooMailNeo@web163006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> <1357465662.6259.YahooMailNeo@web163006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EA157D.50208@brouhaha.com> Dave wrote: > not as clever as Woz's interface, but since OSI had less cloud with drive manufacturers than apple, I don't think Apple had any clout whatsoever with drive manufacturers in early 1978. What, some new fruit company in California? If anything, Ohio Scientific had more clout with drive manufacturers, as they had already been buying floppy drives since late 1976 and hard drives since early 1977. (Apple didn't introduce a hard drive until late 1981.) I imagine that by mid-1979 Apple was buying at least an order of magnitude more floppy drives than Ohio Scientific, but it didn't start out that way. > it was a win to be able to use a standard drive. There's nothing that precludes using a clever controller design such as Woz' Disk II controller with a standard drive. Apple using an SA390 rather than an SA400 was a cost reduction, but the basic Woz controller concept can work fine with standard drives. Also, I don't think there's any reason to think that Shugart wouldn't have sold the SA390 to any OEM customer. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 6 19:12:10 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 17:12:10 -0800 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <50EA157D.50208@brouhaha.com> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> <1357465662.6259.YahooMailNeo@web163006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EA157D.50208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50EA20EA.3020502@sydex.com> Before OSI, AES was using a USRT as part of its floppy controller, as did several other manufacturers (I think Zilog did also on the dev systems). You could also occasionally run across Fairchild Macrologic CDC generators in the old gear. The big difference between the USRT-based and genuine floppy controllers was the bit ordering within a byte. The first WD floppy controllers were seriously expensive. Apparently, initial yields on them were pretty low. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 20:21:14 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 00:21:14 -0200 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? References: Message-ID: <6B5DDB25C6C24C7088D8120086982898@tababook> Maybe cleaning the disk heads with alchool? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Win Heagy" To: Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 7:32 PM Subject: Re: CFFA3000 and Apple III? >A quick update on my Apple III. I used the BNK, ADR and Exp/Got info from > the Apple III RAM test to narrow down the bad RAM chip. I replaced it > with > one from an Apple II and it worked. The RAM test completes successfully, > but it does do one odd thing shown in this pic... > http://i.imgur.com/VP98h.jpg > Row 7 gets dashes across it during the second pass and all subsequent > passes. The test, however, continues normally. I ran it over 10 passes > with no problems. Any ideas what the dashes mean? > > On the downside, my III still doesn't boot. It does pretty much what it > did > before. WIth an SOS disk in the drive, it spins for about 3 seconds, > then > nothing. The demo disk does the same thing. The III+ diagnostic disk > that > used to boot, doesn't boot anymore and fails with an IO error message. > This makes me think again that there may be a floppy drive issue. Is the > drive calibration method that was mentioned previously the one that is > outlined in the Sun Remarketing Do It Yourself Guide for adjusting Apple > III drive speed...that uses a 60 Hz light source? If so, I guess that's > my > next task to try to revive this machine. > > Thanks, > > Win From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 20:23:07 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 00:23:07 -0200 Subject: KS10 (PDP-10) FPGA Status References: <50EA0732.3000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F1FF499266A434191C536E927D989BD@tababook> We're following! Congratulations, Rob! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Doyle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 9:22 PM Subject: KS10 (PDP-10) FPGA Status > There has been significant progress over the Holidays. All the Basic > Instruction Diagnostics now execute successfully. Many of the Advanced > Instruction Diagnostics also execute successfully - the Advanced > Diagnostics that fail, do so because they require support from the > Diagnostic Monitor (SMMON) which is not 'linked in' at this time. > > I have a design roughed-in for a RH-11 Massbus Controller supporting 8 > RP06 Disk Drives. All 8 RP06s disks use a single 8GB Secure Digital > (SD) Disk Card for media. There is still a lot to do before the Disk IO > will be ready to test. I've also implemented an DZ-11 8-port Terminal > Multiplexer, and the KS10-Backplane-to-Unibus IO Bridges. > > If anyone knows where to find the KS10 DZ-11 Diagnostic DSDZA Source > code, please contact me. > > I have verified that I can use the same 'bits-on-disk' format as SIMH. > That will allow the KS10 FPGA to use any of the freely available disk > images without modification. You also should be able to use the SIMH > Tape IO facilities to create your own disk images. > > For complete information, please visit: > > http://www.techtravels.org/KS10FPGA/ > > Rob Doyle > > doyle (at) cox (dot) net > From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 03:57:03 2013 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 01:57:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) Message-ID: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi, I have a working PDP 11/83 in a Pedestal (desk side) type case. Its fitted with a reasonable sized Hard Drive, tape drive and 5.25" floppy disk. I think it has ethernet, but need to check. This is in good shape, and boots. Its the larger desk side case (not sure on the case name) so there is room for a second hard drive. These are nice, 'office friendly' versions of the PDP 11, and quite a bit easier than the UNIBUS machines to manage. Email me if interested. I can get full specs and pictures if there is any interest. Thanks Ian. From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 7 06:08:48 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 13:08:48 +0100 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> On 01/07/2013 10:57 AM, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Hi, > > I have a working PDP 11/83 in a Pedestal (desk side) type case. Its fitted with a reasonable > sized Hard Drive, tape drive and 5.25" floppy disk. I think it has ethernet, but need to check. > > This is in good shape, and boots. Its the larger desk side case (not sure on the case name) > so there is room for a second hard drive. Sounds like the BA123 to me. http://www.netbsd.org/images/machines/vax/microvax2-ba123.jpg > > These are nice, 'office friendly' versions of the PDP 11, and quite a bit easier than the UNIBUS > machines to manage. > > Email me if interested. I can get full specs and pictures if there is any interest. It's a real nice PDP-11. I'm certain you'll be swamped with mail. Cheers, Pontus. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 07:45:45 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:45:45 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2013, at 4:57, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Hi, > > I have a working PDP 11/83 in a Pedestal (desk side) type case. Its fitted with a reasonable > sized Hard Drive, tape drive and 5.25" floppy disk. I think it has ethernet, but need to check. Sounds like a nice machine! The list would probably like to know where you're located so the half of us on the wrong side of the Atlantic can start griping about our rotten luck. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 07:45:53 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:45:53 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2013, at 4:57, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Hi, > > I have a working PDP 11/83 in a Pedestal (desk side) type case. Its fitted with a reasonable > sized Hard Drive, tape drive and 5.25" floppy disk. I think it has ethernet, but need to check. > > This is in good shape, and boots. Its the larger desk side case (not sure on the case name) > so there is room for a second hard drive. > > These are nice, 'office friendly' versions of the PDP 11, and quite a bit easier than the UNIBUS > machines to manage. > > Email me if interested. I can get full specs and pictures if there is any interest. > > > Thanks > > Ian. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 07:47:19 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:47:19 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1770D08F-F56D-4E48-B675-29FE205A83A7@gmail.com> I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. - Dave From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jan 7 08:02:35 2013 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:02:35 -0000 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <1770D08F-F56D-4E48-B675-29FE205A83A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: > I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was > empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP > stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. At least you've realised you can start griping now :-) Antonio From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 08:14:21 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:14:21 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2013, at 9:02 AM, wrote: > David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: >> I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was >> empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP >> stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. > > At least you've realised you can start griping now :-) And now I've noticed that my phone autocorrected "previous" to "precious". Maybe I just shouldn't email before 10 AM. :-) - Dave From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jan 7 08:38:00 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:38:00 -0600 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <20130107143800.GA5396@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (01/05/2013 at 02:06AM -0800), r.stricklin wrote: > Howdy folks. > > I have a handful of 5.25" floppy disks for an Ohio Scientific C1, which I would like to image. Anyone have any info on this disk format, or know of a tool that can read them? They don't appear to be in a WD177x-style format... at least not one intelligible to ImageDisk or Tim Mann's catweasel tools. There is at least one C1 emulator out there with support for disk image files, so I have some hope somebody's already done the dirty work for me. > > If nothing already exists, low-level info on the format would be awesome as then I'd have something to work with, trying to extend Karsten Scheibler's catweasel tools. > > A few cursory trudges through t3h Googles have borne little fruit so far. I think you will find that the C1 used an async UART (MC6850) and a PIA (MC6820) to interface to the floppy drives. The drives were typically MPI (Control Data's disk division) drives that had the data separator built onto the drive. Over the years there were lots of articles about building improved data separators but I think the original async UART connecting to the drive's READ and WRITE data paths remained the same design. Weird / unique and definitely not compatible with any WD17xx format as you mentioned. There's good stuff here, http://www.osiweb.org/ including schematics of the 470 floppy interface card that is probably the origin of all of it, http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/470.pdf Chris -- Chris Elmquist From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 08:47:55 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 06:47:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: > On Jan 7, 2013, at 9:02 AM, wrote: > >> David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: >>> I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was >>> empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP >>> stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. >> >> At least you've realised you can start griping now :-) > > And now I've noticed that my phone autocorrected "previous" to > "precious". Maybe I just shouldn't email before 10 AM. :-) > ...and in the darkness, one ring to autocorrect them. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 09:28:30 2013 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 07:28:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS: PDP 11/83 (UK) Message-ID: <1357572510.72450.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks for the replies - yes its a BA123 - just like the picture :) The system is in the UK. It is a nice machine as it usefully sits next to (or under a large) desk so doesnt take too much space. I'll get some pictures and specs online shortly. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 7 10:05:46 2013 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 08:05:46 -0800 Subject: IBM 3420 tape drives on ebay In-Reply-To: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50EAF25A.2080701@sbcglobal.net> I hope someone can save these from being scrapped. Item number: 190780345712 Bob From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 10:22:20 2013 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:22:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <20130107143800.GA5396@n0jcf.net> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> <20130107143800.GA5396@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <1357575740.36962.YahooMailNeo@web163002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chris Elmquist >I think you will find that the C1 used an async UART (MC6850) and a PIA >(MC6820) to interface to the floppy drives.? > Actually, the ACIA was used in synchronous mode, and the MFM encoding was derived from both the clock and data signals. Dave From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jan 7 10:25:07 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:25:07 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> >Pontus wrote: > >On 01/07/2013 10:57 AM, silvercreekvalley wrote: > >> I have a working PDP 11/83 in a Pedestal (desk side) type case. Its >> fitted with a reasonable >> sized Hard Drive, tape drive and 5.25" floppy disk. I think it has >> ethernet, but need to check. >> >> This is in good shape, and boots. Its the larger desk side case (not >> sure on the case name) >> so there is room for a second hard drive. > > Sounds like the BA123 to me. > http://www.netbsd.org/images/machines/vax/microvax2-ba123.jpg It does seem like a BA123 since a BA23 will not hold three drives. In addition, there are 12 quad Qbus slots in the BA123 vs only 8 quad Qbus slots in a BA23. Overall, the BA123 is about twice as large as a BA23, but is much more convenient since it stands on four rollers on the floor. Also, there is room for a total of FIVE 5.25" drives, so there are two empty drive bays left. On the other hand, if the floppy drive is an RX50 dual floppy, then the RQDX3 (M7555) disk controller can support only one more hard drive. I assume that the 5.25" floppy disk is actually a dual RX50 drive rather than a single RX33 drive. A TK50 tape drive is useful for exchanging a few files, but a TK70 can actually be useful for backups although it is still a bit slow compared to a hard drive. Please verify: (a) RX50 dual vs RX33 single floppy drive (b) Tape drive is probably TK50, but might be TK70 (c) How much memory is available? 1M, 2M or 4M >> These are nice, 'office friendly' versions of the PDP 11, and quite a >> bit easier than the UNIBUS >> machines to manage. >> >> Email me if interested. I can get full specs and pictures if there is >> any interest. > > It's a real nice PDP-11. I'm certain you'll be swamped with mail. The BA123 probably uses about double the power as a BA23, but as long as the BA123 is turned on only when it is being used, the cost is very manageable. Only a single power circuit is needed, probably 240 volts in the UK. Freight cost will be high if pickup is not local. The BA123 is heavy, probably about 70 lb. Two normal men can handle that quite easily. If only a single person is available, remove the power supply to split the load. Since there are rollers under the box, moving the BA123 is very easy on a flat surface. The BA123 is an excellent box for the serious PDP-11 user since there is room for almost any possible boards that might be needed. There is also a 13th slot for the distribution board for the RQDXn controllers. If really needed, two RQDXn controllers may be used since the 13th slot can hold two dual distribution boards. Note that each hard drive also needs a front panel switch and there are blanks for FIVE front panel switches. Jerome Fine From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 11:05:31 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:05:31 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> Message-ID: <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > The BA123 is an excellent box for the serious PDP-11 user since there is > room for almost any possible boards that might be needed. There is also > a 13th slot for the distribution board for the RQDXn controllers. If really > needed, two RQDXn controllers may be used since the 13th slot can hold > two dual distribution boards. Note that each hard drive also needs a > front panel switch and there are blanks for FIVE front panel switches. Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They always seem to turn up in Europe, however... - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 11:07:49 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:07:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130107090728.A72375@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: > And now I've noticed that my phone autocorrected "previous" to > "precious". Maybe I just shouldn't email before 10 AM. :-) It makes value judgements? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 11:17:55 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:17:55 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 12:05 PM, David Riley wrote: > Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They > always seem to turn up in Europe, however... I've only ever seen two BA123s in person... one at work in 1987 (a MicroVAX II on which we ran Ultrix) and one in my basement (2 hour drive in Ohio to pick it up). If I ever got a KDJ11 card, I'd probably convert my BA123 to a PDP-11. I find them much nicer to reconfigure than the BA23, and if you want multiple drives, they are great for that - I've also worked on stacked BA23s - those are a pain if you try to change anything out. -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 7 11:24:28 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 11:24:28 -0600 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009a01cdecfb$d9640690$8c2c13b0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 11:06 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) On Jan 7, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > The BA123 is an excellent box for the serious PDP-11 user since there > is room for almost any possible boards that might be needed. There is > also a 13th slot for the distribution board for the RQDXn controllers. > If really needed, two RQDXn controllers may be used since the 13th > slot can hold two dual distribution boards. Note that each hard drive > also needs a front panel switch and there are blanks for FIVE front panel switches. Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They always seem to turn up in Europe, however... - Dave Sigh. Makes me cringe to think how many of these I scrapped abt 15 years ago... ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jan 7 11:55:10 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 10:55:10 -0700 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EB0BFE.1050100@e-bbes.com> On 2013-01-07 10:05, David Riley wrote: > Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They > always seem to turn up in Europe, however... Funny, I had six of them at one time (here, in the US). Had to stack them, which was a nice wall then ;-) From wheagy at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 12:05:13 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:05:13 -0500 Subject: CFFA3000 and Apple III? Message-ID: Great, thanks. I'll give the cleaning process a try before a speed adjustment. Thanks...Win ---- Almost all the A3 drives that have come my way were malfunctioning. Best bet is to disassemble them and carefully clean and lube. First, use some canned air to blow out all the dust bunnies. The original grease used on the head assembly rails and the spiral-cut plastic stepper wheel solidifies over the years. I usually use a tiny bit of WD-40 on a swab to remove the old lubricant, then a bit of Tri-Flow to replace it. A speed adjustment may very well be needed, but another problem area is the two trimpots on the top of the drive circuit board. They tend to grow oxide and become intermittant. Mark the position of the pots with a felt-tipped pen, then wiggle them with a screwdriver until the little gob of locking compound breaks. Squirt a small amount of non-residue control cleaner in the side and work them through their rotation a few times. Reset to the marked position. You can lock them in place again with a dab of nail polish, but don't do this until you know that things are working again! Reseat all the chips on the board and check closely for "black pin" syndrome. For some reason, the chips in the disk drives seem more prone to this (more exposure to humidity?) If you see this, pull all of them and take a contact cleaning tool to the legs. Finally, take a swab and carefully clean the head with isopropyl alcohol. I've successfully repaired four or five drives in this manner. Steve From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jan 7 13:03:40 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 19:03:40 +0000 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873DC68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: geneb Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 6:48 AM > On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: >> On Jan 7, 2013, at 9:02 AM, wrote: >>> David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: >>>> I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was >>>> empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP >>>> stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. >>> At least you've realised you can start griping now :-) >> And now I've noticed that my phone autocorrected "previous" to >> "precious". Maybe I just shouldn't email before 10 AM. :-) > ...and in the darkness, one ring to autocorrect them. > :) No, no, no. Ring 1 is where the kernel operating system code resides. Autocorrect would be in an application ring. ;-> Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 7 13:14:19 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:14:19 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EB1E8B.3070000@neurotica.com> On 01/07/2013 12:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They >> always seem to turn up in Europe, however... > > I've only ever seen two BA123s in person... one at work in 1987 (a > MicroVAX II on which we ran Ultrix) and one in my basement (2 hour > drive in Ohio to pick it up). You've been here, so that means you've seen four! ;) > If I ever got a KDJ11 card, I'd > probably convert my BA123 to a PDP-11. I find them much nicer to > reconfigure than the BA23, and if you want multiple drives, they are > great for that - I've also worked on stacked BA23s - those are a pain > if you try to change anything out. I can hook you up with a KDJ11. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 7 13:14:43 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:14:43 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <50EB0BFE.1050100@e-bbes.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> <50EB0BFE.1050100@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50EB1EA3.6000003@neurotica.com> On 01/07/2013 12:55 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2013-01-07 10:05, David Riley wrote: > >> Indeed, I'd pretty much give my eye teeth for a BA123 over here. They >> always seem to turn up in Europe, however... > > Funny, I had six of them at one time (here, in the US). Had to stack > them, which was a nice wall then ;-) Just try to find six NOW... -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 13:29:26 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:29:26 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <50EB1E8B.3070000@neurotica.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> <50EB1E8B.3070000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/07/2013 12:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I've only ever seen two BA123s in person... > > You've been here, so that means you've seen four! ;) I'll take your word for it. I saw a lot of things at your place - most larger than a BA123. ;-) > I can hook you up with a KDJ11. That's cool. No hurry. Many, many projects to do before Spring thaw (including moving half a dozen racks and an 029 card punch). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 7 13:36:06 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:36:06 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <0BC78E9D-42D1-47D0-9274-059F84939704@gmail.com> <50EB1E8B.3070000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50EB23A6.70703@neurotica.com> On 01/07/2013 02:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I've only ever seen two BA123s in person... >> >> You've been here, so that means you've seen four! ;) > > I'll take your word for it. I saw a lot of things at your place - > most larger than a BA123. ;-) Well yeah. This place is sorta information overload. This happens to ME all the time, and I live here! >> I can hook you up with a KDJ11. > > That's cool. No hurry. Many, many projects to do before Spring thaw > (including moving half a dozen racks and an 029 card punch). Keep me posted, work knows I may need to duck out at some point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 13:38:40 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 11:38:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873DC68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873DC68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: geneb > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 6:48 AM > >> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: > >>> On Jan 7, 2013, at 9:02 AM, wrote: > >>>> David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: > >>>>> I am full of email fail this morning; the last message was >>>>> empty and the precious one was unnecessary because the OP >>>>> stated UK in the header and I missed it. Sorry for the noise. > >>>> At least you've realised you can start griping now :-) > >>> And now I've noticed that my phone autocorrected "previous" to >>> "precious". Maybe I just shouldn't email before 10 AM. :-) > >> ...and in the darkness, one ring to autocorrect them. > >> :) > > No, no, no. Ring 1 is where the kernel operating system code resides. > Autocorrect would be in an application ring. > I...I...wow. It's not often I get out-geeked, but...just.. wow. Here, sign my Geek Card. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 13:40:55 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 19:40:55 +0000 Subject: FS: PDP 11/83 (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357572510.72450.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357572510.72450.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB24C7.1030902@gmail.com> On 07/01/2013 15:28, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Thanks for the replies - yes its a BA123 - just like the picture :) > > The system is in the UK. It is a nice machine as it usefully sits next to (or under a large) > desk so doesnt take too much space. I'll get some pictures and specs online shortly. Where in the UK? From technobug at comcast.net Mon Jan 7 14:02:00 2013 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:02:00 -0700 Subject: IBM Issued PC DOS Version 5.0 for shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My recycler got in a complete, boxed (mostly) version 5.0 of DOS and was about to "recycle" it. Available for shipping from 85704. ->CRC From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jan 7 14:06:43 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:06:43 +0100 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:25:07 -0500 "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > The BA123 probably uses about double the power as a BA23 Only if it is fully populated with cards. Power consumtion depends on the count of cards actually instaled and on the type of card. Actual power consumtion does not depend on the max. power rating of the PSU. BTW: A modernish PeeCee with a 125 W TDP CPU and gamer GFX under load will draw more power then a small to average QBus PDP11 or MicroVAX. Eeasyly. IIRC my PDP-11/73 in a BA23 with two ESDI HDDs and a TK50 draws around 200 W. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 14:11:36 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Issued PC DOS Version 5.0 for shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, CRC wrote: > My recycler got in a complete, boxed (mostly) version 5.0 of DOS and was about to "recycle" it. Available for shipping from 85704. > What would shipping to 98373 be? Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 14:16:54 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:16:54 +0100 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873DC68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: From: "geneb" Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 8:38 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) [... snip ...] > I...I...wow. > > It's not often I get out-geeked, but...just.. wow. > > Here, sign my Geek Card. :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. Well, it's not only a "Geek Card" ... Cool, that your car license plate is "F15SIM" !! - Henk, PA8PDP www. pdp-11.nl/viperpit From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 14:56:20 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:56:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: World's largest Mindset Computer Corp Collection available In-Reply-To: <1706800870-1357339175-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-958779899-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <50E7425C.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <1706800870-1357339175-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-958779899-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <1357592180.75467.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> if there isn't interest in a total buy out, I live close enough to pick the stuff up, if there's the possibility of a group buy. If curt can give us a fairly accurate breakdown, we can express interest in what we want. Individuals can e-mail me directly to express their interest. I pack extremely well and won't charge anything but raw shipping. I could use a working system unit. Most of my M* stuff is sold off or given away. It's the most absolutely gorgeously design cpu out there, subject to individual tastes of course, but really does look like something out of Space 1999. Like I said if there isn't interest in a total buy out, this might be your chance to obtain one. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 14:58:04 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:58:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ok so if I wanted to make a sturdy cable, db-9 at one end, D-23 at the other, is there a grommet out there that I can purchase to make up the difference in the bores? Or do I have to make something on one of my many not-set-up lathes. I think I lost one last week in fact. A small one, but who loses a lathe?? From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 15:09:18 2013 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:09:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? Message-ID: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 7 15:21:44 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:21:44 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/83 (UK) In-Reply-To: <1357572510.72450.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357572510.72450.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0b0a01cded1d$00c2e6e0$0248b4a0$@ntlworld.com> Sadly I don't really have room for another BA123 enclosure, but its boards and disks are interesting! NB I finally got the 11/73 you gave me a while back booting over Christmas. I had to find a hard disk for it first. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of silvercreekvalley > Sent: 07 January 2013 15:29 > To: cctalk > Subject: FS: PDP 11/83 (UK) > > Thanks for the replies - yes its a BA123 - just like the picture :) > > The system is in the UK. It is a nice machine as it usefully sits next to (or > under a large) desk so doesnt take too much space. I'll get some pictures > and specs online shortly. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 15:23:39 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 13:23:39 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB3CDB.50603@gmail.com> On 1/7/2013 1:09 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > Looks like thinkgeek made replicas > > http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs Neat but, $500 ? Besides it bugs me they keep calling it a life size replica of HAL9000. Sort like calling the operators panel of a PDP-10 a life sized replica of a PDP-10. Maybe it is even more like calling a intercom on the operators desk a life size replica of a PDP-10. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 15:25:23 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:25:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [OT!] Re: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <5FF82F96A8594F449FAA74262E380193@ANTONIOPC> <741E6D54-0BE6-4036-9AF5-5B368CD03B0A@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873DC68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Subject: RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) > > [... snip ...] > >> I...I...wow. >> >> It's not often I get out-geeked, but...just.. wow. >> >> Here, sign my Geek Card. :) >> >> g. >> > > Well, it's not only a "Geek Card" ... > Cool, that your car license plate is "F15SIM" !! > That's on the truck. This is on the daily driver: http://www.geneb.org/images/6502.jpg :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 15:43:44 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:43:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > ok so if I wanted to make a sturdy cable, db-9 at one end, D-23 at the > other, is there a grommet out there that I can purchase to make up the > difference in the bores? Or do I have to make something on one of my > many not-set-up lathes. hoods for DE-9 are readily available. For DB-9, just use a DB-25 hood. Hoods for D-23 have existed, but are hard to come by. "Grommet"??!? Yeah, you could make a SPACER to fill the gap for using a DB hood on a D-23 > I think I lost one last week in fact. A small > one, but who loses a lathe?? Only in a mainframe. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 15:59:20 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:59:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'm at a loss to understand how you use a db-9 connector w/a db-25 hood. There's going to be a lot of ventilation it seems. I have the D23 hood. I was going to buy a nice metal db-9 hood/connector at Radio Shlock. I guess I'm going to have to make a GROMMET. Apparently that sort of thing doesn't exist out there. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 7 15:59:42 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:59:42 -0700 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo at web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Christian Liendo writes: > Looks like thinkgeek made replicas > > http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs It looks exceedingly boring and expensive. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 16:12:26 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:12:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I'm at a loss to understand how you use a db-9 connector w/a db-25 hood. > There's going to be a lot of ventilation it seems. NO. A DE-9 is a lot smaller than a DB-25 A DB-9 is the same size as a DB-25, usually with 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, and 20 connected. > I have the D23 hood. I was going to buy a nice metal db-9 hood/connector > at Radio Shlock. I guess I'm going to have to make a GROMMET. Apparently > that sort of thing doesn't exist out there. You said that you wanted to make a CABLE. You have a D23 hood. and connector? You can get a DE-9 connector and hood. WHERE do you think that you can get a DB-9 connector and hood that is not just a MIS-LABELED DE-9? WHERE did you want to p[ut a GROMMET?? From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Jan 7 16:19:37 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 22:19:37 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I might pay $4.99 but not $499.00. On 7 January 2013 21:59, Richard wrote: > > In article <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo at web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, > Christian Liendo writes: > >> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas >> >> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs > > It looks exceedingly boring and expensive. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 16:24:29 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:24:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ok let me start over :) I have a Amiga 1000 external floppy drive cable - that is the d23 plus the cable ONLY. The cable is cut off at the other end. I want to make this into an Amiga 600 video cable. I have a D23 connector to go along w/the D23 hood from the floppy drive. I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The cable connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. Therefore I need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the hole of a db9 hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger bore, so I need to take up that space. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 16:33:24 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:33:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, John Many Jars wrote: > I might pay $4.99 but not $499.00. > I suspect there's $40 in parts, the rest is licensing fees to whatever law office happens to own the rights to 2001 these days. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 16:36:41 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:36:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I want to make this into an Amiga 600 video cable. I have a D23 > connector to go along w/the D23 hood from the floppy drive. > > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The cable > connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. Therefore I > need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the hole of a db9 > hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger bore, so I need to > take up that space. There's no such thing as a "DB9". (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might qualify...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 7 16:47:07 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:47:07 -0800 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> On 01/07/2013 02:24 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The > cable connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. > Therefore I need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in > the hole of a db9 hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a > larger bore, so I need to take up that space. What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body. It works extremely well. (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful). Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 16:52:14 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:52:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1357599134.36867.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: geneb There's no such thing as a "DB9".? (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might qualify...) C: Well it's news to me. That's what I and it seemed everyone else have been calling them. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 16:58:07 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:58:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357599134.36867.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1357599134.36867.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: geneb > > > There's no such thing as a "DB9".? (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might qualify...) > > C:\DERP> Well it's news to me. That's what I and it seemed everyone else have been calling them. > Not on this list they haven't. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 7 16:59:16 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 14:59:16 -0800 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB5344.5050502@sydex.com> On 01/07/2013 02:36 PM, geneb wrote: > There's no such thing as a "DB9". (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might > qualify...) We've been here so many times that it scarcely is worth bothering. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 16:59:38 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:59:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body.? It works extremely well. (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful).? Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. --Chuck C: I would prefer something like a grommet. Looks more professional.? I'm not sure where I could find a suitable material, but a stroll through Homo Depot might yield something fruitful. From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 7 17:00:53 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:00:53 -0600 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <014e01cded2a$d89316a0$89b943e0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 4:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: db-9 hoods On 01/07/2013 02:24 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The > cable connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. > Therefore I need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the > hole of a db9 hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger > bore, so I need to take up that space. What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body. It works extremely well. (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful). Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. --Chuck Radio Shack used to sell shrink wrap tubing in small packages for a couple of dollars. You can still get it online from various vendors. All you need is a heat gun or hair dryer, and you can build it up in layers to make it the thickness you need. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 17:01:17 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:01:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130107145641.F74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > ok let me start over :) I have a Amiga 1000 external floppy drive cable > - that is the d23 plus the cable ONLY. The cable is cut off at the other > end. > I want to make this into an Amiga 600 video cable. I have a D23 > connector to go along w/the D23 hood from the floppy drive. > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The cable > connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. Therefore I > need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the hole of a db9 > hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger bore, so I need to > take up that space. Ah, now that is closer, and explains the reason for a GROMMET! What I would do, and have done before, for matching cable differences (not impedance matching :-)), is to drill out the opening of the smaller hood to take the larger cable, although using a smaller cable and an O-ring or grommet would work. To use as a video cable, you would need a DE-9, NOT a DB-9. DB-9 is hardly EVER used for anything except serial communications. Although MANY people and even ignorant businesses mislabel their DE-9's as DB-9 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 7 17:03:33 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:03:33 -0600 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 4:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: db-9 hoods On 01/07/2013 02:24 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The > cable connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. > Therefore I need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the > hole of a db9 hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger > bore, so I need to take up that space. What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body. It works extremely well. (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful). Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. --Chuck http://www.oldsoftware.com/softimg6/23pin9.jpg Is this what you are looking for? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 7 17:08:48 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:08:48 -0600 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <015001cded2b$f3a006a0$dae013e0$@com> -Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 4:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: db-9 hoods On 01/07/2013 02:24 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I need to put a DB9 on the other end to plug into the monitor. The > cable connected to the D23 is too fat though. Like me, too fat. > Therefore I need to obtain another piece of cable that will fit in the > hole of a db9 hood. The problem w/that is the d23 hood has a larger > bore, so I need to take up that space. This guy is selling them brand new for $12! http://www.bestpricecables.com/6ft-grey-amiga-monitor-cable-with-db-23-femal e-to-db-9-male-connectors.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6014 - Release Date: 01/06/13 From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jan 7 17:10:17 2013 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 23:10:17 -0000 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB5344.5050502@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > On 01/07/2013 02:36 PM, geneb wrote: > >> There's no such thing as a "DB9". (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might >> qualify...) > > We've been here so many times that it scarcely is worth bothering. > We solved that very issue at work with a wiki. (Maybe there's one already?) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Jan 7 17:10:44 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 23:10:44 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You'll need one of these... http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/8mm-f8.htm They are kind of expensive. On 7 January 2013 22:33, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, John Many Jars wrote: > >> I might pay $4.99 but not $499.00. >> > > I suspect there's $40 in parts, the rest is licensing fees to whatever law > office happens to own the rights to 2001 these days. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 7 17:12:09 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:12:09 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <94AE5B96-F2B0-4C5D-8D8A-F6FE40E91427@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Jan 7, at 2:19 PM, John Many Jars wrote: >> In article >> <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo at web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, >> Christian Liendo writes: >>> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas >>> >>> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs >>> > I might pay $4.99 but not $499.00. Patience. The 10$ chinese knock-off will be available shortly. From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 17:12:29 2013 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 18:12:29 -0500 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can you change the eye color to blue and replace Douglas Rain with Candace Bergan? On 1/7/13, Christian Liendo wrote: > Looks like thinkgeek made replicas > > http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs > -- Joseph Giliberti InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jan 7 17:13:08 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 18:13:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201301072313.SAA03888@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm at a loss to understand how you use a db-9 connector w/a db-25 hood. The$ I've yet to see D-shell connector hoods that care about pin count; they all just care about size, so a DB hood is a DB hood, regardless of whether it's a DB-25, a 13W3, or even something really esoteric like a DB-9. (I've never seen a DB-9, though I've seen a recent trend to try to apply the term to a DB-25 with only 9 pins installed, for some reason. Perhaps oddly, I've never seen the other logical consequences of that point of view, such as calling a DB-25 with only pins 2/3/7 installed a "DB-3"....) What you most likely want is a DE hood. Almost all of what is called "DB-9" is actually DE-9, misnamed by someone who doesn't understand the terminology. (Unfortunately, this includes far too many vendors. Sturgeon's Law applies.) As for grommets? I don't know of any designed for the purpose. But there is a very wide variety of grommets out there designed for sheet-metal use; it would not surprise me if one of them would serve your purpose. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jan 7 17:16:43 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 17:16:43 -0600 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB575B.3060404@vaxen.net> On 1/7/13 4:59 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body. It works extremely well. > > (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful). Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. > > --Chuck > > C: I would prefer something like a grommet. Looks more professional. I'm not sure where I could find a suitable material, but a stroll through Homo Depot might yield something fruitful. Your local auto parts store is more likely to have what you need. Doc From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jan 7 17:21:17 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 17:21:17 -0600 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB586D.9050200@vaxen.net> On 1/7/13 4:59 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body. It works extremely well. > > (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful). Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. > > --Chuck > > C: I would prefer something like a grommet. Looks more professional. I'm not sure where I could find a suitable material, but a stroll through Homo Depot might yield something fruitful. ...and hit send before i finished typing.... Chuck's suggestion of a wire tie for strain relief is a good one, whether you use a grommet or tubing. Even a tight reducer will allow the cable to slip over time, and the strain relief provision in the D-23 hood will probably not grasp a smaller cable. Doc From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 17:30:58 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:30:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <014e01cded2a$d89316a0$89b943e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <014e01cded2a$d89316a0$89b943e0$@com> Message-ID: <1357601458.32048.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Radio Shack used to sell shrink wrap tubing in small packages for a couple of dollars.? You can still get it online from various vendors. All you need is a heat gun or hair dryer, and you can build it up in layers to make it the thickness you need. C: I have plenty of shrinky dink tubing on hand. And a heat gun. It just looks amateurish. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 17:33:46 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:33:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <20130107145641.F74890@shell.lmi.net> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107145641.F74890@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1357601626.2114.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> What I would do, and have done before, for matching cable differences (not impedance matching :-)), is to drill out the opening of the smaller hood to take the larger cable, although using a smaller cable and an O-ring or grommet would work. C: Drilling out a metal hood in anything but a lathe seems to be a recipe for an explosion of sorts. Even in a lathe - that likely die cast crap. I dunno. I had thought of it but my original objection was it would look all ugly. ?I would have thought there would be something out there I could purchase. Guess not. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 17:35:27 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:35:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com> Message-ID: <1357601727.88121.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Is this what you are looking for? C: that looks like a serial cable to me bubbalah. But thanks for looking. It resembles what I need but at the far end is a D23 connector not a 25 pin thingee. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 17:38:10 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:38:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <015001cded2b$f3a006a0$dae013e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <015001cded2b$f3a006a0$dae013e0$@com> Message-ID: <1357601890.32203.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This guy is selling them brand new for $12! http://www.bestpricecables.com/6ft-grey-amiga-monitor-cable-with-db-23-femal e-to-db-9-male-connectors.html C: Thanks but I already bought the connector. I may as well make good use of it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 17:39:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:39:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <015001cded2b$f3a006a0$dae013e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <015001cded2b$f3a006a0$dae013e0$@com> Message-ID: <20130107153754.H74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > This guy is selling them brand new for $12! > > http://www.bestpricecables.com/6ft-grey-amiga-monitor-cable-with-db-23-femal > e-to-db-9-male-connectors.html It's a little more costly than a grommet, BUT, they have a DB-9, instead of a DE-9! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 7 17:45:12 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 16:45:12 -0700 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com> Message-ID: In article <014f01cded2b$376d50a0$a647f1e0$@com>, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" writes: > http://www.oldsoftware.com/softimg6/23pin9.jpg > > Is this what you are looking for? This guy is local to me, if anyone needs assistance. He mostly deals in old C=64 stuff. Cindy, I think I referred him to you since he scours up old virgin copies of MS-DOS with the certificate of authenticity for medical device manufacturers. Hopefully he helped you liquidate some inventory :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 7 17:48:11 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 16:48:11 -0700 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , writes: > Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > > On 01/07/2013 02:36 PM, geneb wrote: > > > >> There's no such thing as a "DB9". (Technically, 9 pins in DB25 might > >> qualify...) > > > > We've been here so many times that it scarcely is worth bothering. > > > > We solved that very issue at work with a wiki. (Maybe there's one > already?) On this particular issue, wikipedia already covers it pretty well. I'd like to see this community make a vintage computing wiki, like I have done for terminals, but instead everyone seems insistent on building a monument of their own instead of collaborating. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 17:52:02 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 18:52:02 -0500 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1357599134.36867.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Not on this list they haven't. And we wonder why we do not get invited to parties. -- Will From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 18:10:11 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 19:10:11 -0500 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You also have to replace the 'H' with an 'S' as well. On 7 January 2013 18:12, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Can you change the eye color to blue and replace Douglas Rain with > Candace Bergan? > > On 1/7/13, Christian Liendo wrote: >> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas >> >> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs >> > > > -- > Joseph Giliberti > InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum > Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 18:12:04 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 16:12:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping Message-ID: <1357603924.83713.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I probably have 8 left. I dropped one. Man that shadow mask was all warped to heck. Weird forces are in play when there's an implosion. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 7 18:12:40 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 16:12:40 -0800 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <014e01cded2a$d89316a0$89b943e0$@com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <014e01cded2a$d89316a0$89b943e0$@com> Message-ID: <50EB6478.7080105@sydex.com> On 01/07/2013 03:00 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Radio Shack used to sell shrink wrap tubing in small packages for a couple > of dollars. You can still get it online from various vendors. All you need > is a heat gun or hair dryer, and you can build it up in layers to make it > the thickness you need. I'd be moderately surprised if you couldn't go to Home Depot or your local auto parts store nowadays and find the stuff. RS used to sell heat-shrink tape that you could build up and then fuse with a suitable heat source, such as a lighted match. I don't know if it's still offered. Many backshells (the term of art) also come with internal cable clamps. I long ago gave up on the 3-piece + screws and bits of metal shells. I prefer using the one-piece snap-on type of hood with nice extended molded-head jackscrews. On occasion, I've even filled them with epoxy resin for a more secure attachment. A bit of black rubber hose can serve as a very handsome grommet in a pinch. But for all I can tell, CT may be after a flexible strain relief instead. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 18:17:13 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 16:17:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <50EB586D.9050200@vaxen.net> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB586D.9050200@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <1357604233.87337.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > What I've found that works when faced with a similar situation (e.g. 4 wire cable going into a DB25 hood), I taken either about an inch of rubber or vinyl hose, slipped it over the cable (nice if you can do it before you solder things up), and secure it with a small cable tie that fits inside the hood body.? It works extremely well. > > (I find that keeping lengths of various size vinyl hose around useful).? Sometimes it can be had in short lengths for the asking if it's the end of a spool. > > --Chuck ? Chuck's suggestion of a wire tie for strain relief is a good one, whether you use a grommet or tubing.? Even a tight reducer will allow the cable to slip over time, and the strain relief provision in the D-23 hood will probably not grasp a smaller cable. ??? Doc C: Unless you precisely machined a grommet. But even then you could just put a tie wrap around the cable, or w/a piece of tubing, and do your best to make it butt up against the grommet. Even a piece of acetal/delrin would be acceptable, though not what I had in mind. I will try the auto parts store. Sounds as good a suggestion as any. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 19:02:20 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:02:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: <1357601626.2114.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107145641.F74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357601626.2114.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130107165320.G74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Drilling out a metal hood in anything but a lathe seems to be a > recipe for an explosion of sorts. Even in a lathe - that likely die cast > crap. I dunno. I had thought of it but my original objection was it > would look all ugly. You're right to be cautious. I used a cheap drill press, with the part clamped down solidly. The well-made metal ones, and some of the plastic ones went very nicely. Some of the crappier metal ones not so well. >?I would have thought there would be something out there I could > purchase. Guess not. Used to be. But, then you could choose between dozens of different hoods for all of the common sizes. And there existed DB hoods for cables with fewer wires. There were probably even grommets. 'course so long as it's solid, with good strain relief, I'm not very particular about the appearance of my DB-3s and DB-9s. For some connectors, such as Mini-DIN, I'm not adverse to using whatever cable is appropriate for each connector, and ssplicing them in the middle. With a little practice, shrink tubing doesn't have to look too bad. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 19:09:55 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:09:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping In-Reply-To: <1357603924.83713.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357603924.83713.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130107170842.C74890@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I probably have 8 left. I dropped one. Man that shadow mask was all > warped to heck. Weird forces are in play when there's an implosion. They are, indeed! Most people would have said that they "had done full testing of its impact resistance and impact failure modes". From pinball at telus.net Sat Jan 5 18:12:54 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 16:12:54 -0800 Subject: 3.25 alingment? In-Reply-To: <20130105142835.F29692@shell.lmi.net> References: <50E755FA.50404@telus.net> <20130105142835.F29692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50E8C186.6070300@telus.net> Sorry, 3.25 was an oops posting - see other thread "3.5 alignment? (~~opps, not 3.25!)" Thanks! John :-#)# Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, John Robertson wrote: > >> Looking to test/service/align a number (10 or so) of double-sided >> double-density 3.25 floppy drives and hoping there is someone here in >> Canada who has the alignment discs that I could borrow/buy. >> These are for setting up some of my older computerized microprocessor >> test gear (Fluke mostly)... >> Suggestions on aligning are also greatly appreciated! >> Thanks! >> John :-#)# >> > > 3.25" alignment disks are EXTREMELY rare. > MUCH, MUCH, MUCH harder to get than 3.5" > > When I acquired MicroPro's (Wordstar) 3.25" disks and drives, > I was pleasantly surprised to find that it included some > 3.25" alignment disks. UNFORTUNATELY, I was then horrified > to find out that some (prob'ly all) of those alignment disks > had been FORMATted and used for data! > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 18:53:32 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 19:53:32 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 113, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Al Kossow > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Cc: > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 14:43:34 -0800 > Subject: IBM Series/1 documentation upload > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/series1 > > more that you ever wanted to know. > > there's a bit more yet being pushed out to the mirrors. Thanks Al. The RICM has lots of them: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ibm-series1 -- Michael Thompson From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Jan 7 18:52:35 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 16:52:35 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EB6DD3.1080509@jwsss.com> Mine won't be going into a $500 Hal 9000 any time soon. There are plenty of fisheye adapters that should turn up a cheaper alternative. Probably cheaper than their "custom" version. I suspect I could turn out a model like this a lot cheaper. What I want is a functional wall of clear memory cells to play with and Keir Dullea's fancy key to eject them. Jim On 1/7/2013 3:10 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > You'll need one of these... > http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/8mm-f8.htm > > They are kind of expensive. From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 19:34:38 2013 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 19:34:38 -0600 Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping In-Reply-To: <20130107170842.C74890@shell.lmi.net> References: <1357603924.83713.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107170842.C74890@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I'm interested in one but didn't see the rest of the post. How do I go about getting it? On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I probably have 8 left. I dropped one. Man that shadow mask was all > > warped to heck. Weird forces are in play when there's an implosion. > > They are, indeed! > > Most people would have said that they "had done full testing > of its impact resistance and impact failure modes". > > > -- Marty From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 21:04:59 2013 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:04:59 -0600 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe Message-ID: Any of these lying around? I ask every year or so... I had both at work, and want one again. Thanks, Randy From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 7 22:50:39 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 20:50:39 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <50EB6DD3.1080509@jwsss.com> References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EB6DD3.1080509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <505A02A9-518E-4927-AA63-33C6207B8767@cs.ubc.ca> >> On 2013 Jan 7, at 4:52 PM, jim s wrote: > > .. What I want is a functional wall of clear memory cells to play > with and Keir Dullea's fancy key to eject them. And a zero-gravity environment to access it. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 7 22:58:48 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 20:58:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: RIP Mark Crispin Message-ID: Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark Crispin was very ill and in hospice. ===begin quote=== Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:18:55 alt.sys.pdp10 Thread 3 of 3 Lines 5 RIP MRC 2 Responses fishtoprecords Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Mark Crispin - MRC - Inventor of IMAP and a friend for decades, has died at 56. // Mark Reed Crispin, passed away on Friday, December 28, 2012 at Martha and Mary Healthcare Services in Poulsbo Washington. He was born on July 19, 1956 in Camden New Jersey and was 56 years of age. Arrangements are pending through Cook Family Funeral Home. ===end quote=== -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 7 23:16:27 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:16:27 -0800 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:58 PM -0800 1/7/13, David Griffith wrote: >Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark >Crispin was very ill and in hospice. > >===begin quote=== >Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:18:55 alt.sys.pdp10 Thread 3 of 3 >Lines 5 RIP MRC 2 Responses >fishtoprecords > >Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 > >Mark Crispin - MRC - Inventor of IMAP and a friend for decades, has >died at 56. // Mark Reed Crispin, passed away on Friday, December >28, 2012 at Martha and Mary Healthcare Services in Poulsbo >Washington. He was born on July 19, 1956 in Camden New Jersey and >was 56 years of age. Arrangements are pending through Cook Family >Funeral Home. >===end quote=== As if today didn't suck bad enough already. I hadn't even heard that he was sick. Do you happen to know what the last release of the Panda TOPS-20 distribution was, and if it's been archived? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From technobug at comcast.net Mon Jan 7 23:22:48 2013 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 22:22:48 -0700 Subject: IBM Issued PC DOS Version 5.0 for shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <678C66E3-3B64-4537-BD25-811425FFB1FA@comcast.net> > My recycler got in a complete, boxed (mostly) version 5.0 of DOS and was about to "recycle" it. Available for shipping from 85704. > 'Tis taken ->CRC From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 7 23:26:49 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 21:26:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:58 PM -0800 1/7/13, David Griffith wrote: >> Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark Crispin >> was very ill and in hospice. >> >> ===begin quote=== >> Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:18:55 alt.sys.pdp10 Thread 3 of >> 3 >> Lines 5 RIP MRC 2 Responses >> fishtoprecords >> >> Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 >> >> Mark Crispin - MRC - Inventor of IMAP and a friend for decades, has died at >> 56. // Mark Reed Crispin, passed away on Friday, December 28, 2012 at >> Martha and Mary Healthcare Services in Poulsbo Washington. He was born on >> July 19, 1956 in Camden New Jersey and was 56 years of age. Arrangements >> are pending through Cook Family Funeral Home. >> ===end quote=== > > As if today didn't suck bad enough already. I hadn't even heard that he was > sick. Do you happen to know what the last release of the Panda TOPS-20 > distribution was, and if it's been archived? In November someone posted to alt.sys.pdp10 or sparetimegizmos that he went into hospice care. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From g-wright at att.net Tue Jan 8 00:26:12 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 22:26:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. Message-ID: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> The system has M8189 cpu M8067 memory 256k M8029 RX02 M8061 RL02 M8639 HD controller Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a bad controller card. The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot from it. i get an error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the RX02 , I get 'cant read directory ' Any words of wisdom out there Thanks, Jerry From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 8 00:40:34 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 22:40:34 -0800 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >The system has > >M8189 cpu >M8067 memory 256k >M8029 RX02 >M8061 RL02 >M8639 HD controller > >Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a bad >controller card. > >The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot >from it. i get >an > >error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the >RX02 , I get > >'cant read directory ' > >Any words of wisdom out there > >Thanks, Jerry What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two set the same? I assume you have a drive # plug in the front of the RL02 drive? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Tue Jan 8 00:43:21 2013 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 23:43:21 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on Apple II card- Labnet 488 References: <1357463915.44404.YahooMailNeo@web163004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think I have the same card. Says labnet-488 on the card. I picked up the Apple II IEEE-488 Interface User's Guide from ebay also. About 80 pages. I have not yet tried to use the card. I'll need to see if I can scan this manual into a pdf. Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 02:18 AM Subject: Looking for info on Apple II card- Labnet 488 Hi all, I recently acquired Labnet 488 card by Innovations in Computing, circa 1978. This appears to be an IEEE-488 interface based on the Motorola 68488 chip. Does anybody have any info on this card, or even better, has anybody seen one of these in use? It would be cool to locate manuals and/or software, and actually put this sucker to use. Dave From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 00:55:42 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 22:55:42 -0800 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator Message-ID: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> Subject line says it all -- and I know this is a long shot. Anyone have one going spare? Finally got my 5120 working (after scrounging a keyboard, display, and an ROS board from a parts machine*) and of course I had no idea that a terminator was required in order for the internal drives to function. Iimagine these are hard to find, but I haveto ask... Thanks as always, Josh (*stillneed a Command/Language ROS board since it turns out my 5120 had not one but two bad ROS boards, but I've borrowed it from my 5110 for the time being. I'm assuming that it's pretty much impossible to repair these things...) From spedraja at ono.com Tue Jan 8 01:08:55 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 08:08:55 +0100 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2013/1/8 David Griffith > On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 8:58 PM -0800 1/7/13, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark Crispin >>> was very ill and in hospice. >>> >>> ===begin quote=== >>> Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:18:55 alt.sys.pdp10 Thread 3 >>> of 3 >>> Lines 5 RIP MRC 2 Responses >>> fishtoprecords >>> >>> Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 >>> >>> Mark Crispin - MRC - Inventor of IMAP and a friend for decades, has died >>> at 56. // Mark Reed Crispin, passed away on Friday, December 28, 2012 at >>> Martha and Mary Healthcare Services in Poulsbo Washington. He was born on >>> July 19, 1956 in Camden New Jersey and was 56 years of age. Arrangements >>> are pending through Cook Family Funeral Home. >>> ===end quote=== >>> >> >> As if today didn't suck bad enough already. I hadn't even heard that he >> was sick. Do you happen to know what the last release of the Panda TOPS-20 >> distribution was, and if it's been archived? >> > > In November someone posted to alt.sys.pdp10 or sparetimegizmos that he > went into hospice care. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > Very, very bad news. At 56, in adittion... I will miss his endless discussions in alt.sys.pdp10 Sergio Pedraja. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Jan 8 01:26:53 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 07:26:53 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <505A02A9-518E-4927-AA63-33C6207B8767@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EB6DD3.1080509@jwsss.com> <505A02A9-518E-4927-AA63-33C6207B8767@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Build a very large tower, several thousand feet. Put brain room in box in tower, and drop. A breaking system would be a good idea... On 8 January 2013 04:50, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> On 2013 Jan 7, at 4:52 PM, jim s wrote: >> >> >> .. What I want is a functional wall of clear memory cells to play with >> and Keir Dullea's fancy key to eject them. > > > And a zero-gravity environment to access it. > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 01:40:09 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 05:40:09 -0200 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: > BTW: A modernish PeeCee with a 125 W TDP CPU and gamer GFX under load > will draw more power then a small to average QBus PDP11 or MicroVAX. > Eeasyly. IIRC my PDP-11/73 in a BA23 with two ESDI HDDs and a TK50 > draws around 200 W. But how much more processing power the newish PeeCee has? :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 01:45:27 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 05:45:27 -0200 Subject: db-9 hoods References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB575B.3060404@vaxen.net> Message-ID: >> C: I would prefer something like a grommet. Looks more professional. I'm >> not sure where I could find a suitable material, but a stroll through >> Homo Depot might yield something fruitful. ^^^^^ I didn't know there were specialized hardware shops for homossexuals in USA... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 01:47:07 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 05:47:07 -0200 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can I order them with IBM instead of HAL? :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Gauger-Cosgrove" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 10:10 PM Subject: Re: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? > You also have to replace the 'H' with an 'S' as well. > > On 7 January 2013 18:12, Joe Giliberti wrote: >> Can you change the eye color to blue and replace Douglas Rain with >> Candace Bergan? >> >> On 1/7/13, Christian Liendo wrote: >>> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas >>> >>> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs >>> >> >> >> -- >> Joseph Giliberti >> InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum >> Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 8 02:05:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 03:05:51 -0500 Subject: db-9 hoods In-Reply-To: References: <1356912831.99681.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20121230165827.H89729@shell.lmi.net> <1357592284.74009.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107131617.M74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357595960.56474.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107140753.K74890@shell.lmi.net> <1357597469.67270.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB506B.5080606@sydex.com> <1357599578.320.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EB575B.3060404@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50EBD35F.6050203@neurotica.com> On 01/08/2013 02:45 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> C: I would prefer something like a grommet. Looks more professional. >>> I'm not sure where I could find a suitable material, but a stroll >>> through Homo Depot might yield something fruitful. > ^^^^^ > I didn't know there were specialized hardware shops for homossexuals > in USA... ROFLMAO!! This is one of the funniest exchanges I've seen on this list in years! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From paco.linux at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 03:48:06 2013 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 10:48:06 +0100 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Very sad news. We will miss you. RIP Mark Paco On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 8:08 AM, SPC wrote: > 2013/1/8 David Griffith > > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > At 8:58 PM -0800 1/7/13, David Griffith wrote: > >> > >>> Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark > Crispin > >>> was very ill and in hospice. > >>> > >>> ===begin quote=== > >>> Mon, 07 Jan 2013 11:18:55 alt.sys.pdp10 Thread 3 > >>> of 3 > >>> Lines 5 RIP MRC 2 Responses > >>> fishtoprecords > >>> > >>> Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 > >>> > >>> Mark Crispin - MRC - Inventor of IMAP and a friend for decades, has > died > >>> at 56. // Mark Reed Crispin, passed away on Friday, December 28, 2012 > at > >>> Martha and Mary Healthcare Services in Poulsbo Washington. He was born > on > >>> July 19, 1956 in Camden New Jersey and was 56 years of age. > Arrangements > >>> are pending through Cook Family Funeral Home. > >>> ===end quote=== > >>> > >> > >> As if today didn't suck bad enough already. I hadn't even heard that he > >> was sick. Do you happen to know what the last release of the Panda > TOPS-20 > >> distribution was, and if it's been archived? > >> > > > > In November someone posted to alt.sys.pdp10 or sparetimegizmos that he > > went into hospice care. > > > > > > -- > > David Griffith > > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > > Very, very bad news. At 56, in adittion... > > I will miss his endless discussions in alt.sys.pdp10 > > Sergio Pedraja. > -- |_|0|_| |_|_|0| ??? |0|0|0| From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Jan 8 05:38:07 2013 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 11:38:07 +0000 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <50E8B634.1090306@sydex.com> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> <50E71A4C.3080502@jwsss.com> <50E8B634.1090306@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130108113807.GA27490@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sat, Jan 05, 2013 at 03:24:36PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One aspect of a computer virus is that there must be a means to > propagate the thing--not something that you'll easily find in old 8-bit > industrial equipment. Every Ye Olde piece of computerised industrial equipment I've seen has some way of getting data into it, most have some way of getting data out and many have some way of updating the software on them. Often it's just a serial port that speaks some proprietary protocol, but having a floppy (carefully protected from airborne oil and dust!) is pretty common. -- David Cantrell | Bourgeois reactionary pig The Law of Daves: in any gathering of technical people, the number of Daves will be greater than the number of women. From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jan 8 06:46:08 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 06:46:08 -0600 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: <1357575740.36962.YahooMailNeo@web163002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8F3DB6F0-8634-482B-837D-9D781ABC2C5B@typewritten.org> <20130107143800.GA5396@n0jcf.net> <1357575740.36962.YahooMailNeo@web163002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130108124608.GG2141@n0jcf.net> On Monday (01/07/2013 at 08:22AM -0800), Dave wrote: > > > From: Chris Elmquist > >I think you will find that the C1 used an async UART (MC6850) and a PIA > >(MC6820) to interface to the floppy drives.? > > > > Actually, the ACIA was used in synchronous mode, and the MFM encoding was derived from both the clock and data signals. The ACIA was run in divide-by-1, external clock mode, with the clock being derived from the data using the clock extractor on the floppy drive (originally) and other circuits over time. But it was still async, with a start bit and 1 or 2 stop bits per byte. The 6850 does not have a synchronous mode like a USART such as AMI S2350, which has a true synchronous mode (can sync to a start byte per frame rather than a start bit per byte) and was also popular in floppy controllers such as the Heathkit H-17 and Percom LFD-400 for SS-50 bus both 10-hole hard-sector, and all from about the same time. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 8 09:22:01 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:22:01 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: > >> The system has >> >> M8189 cpu >> M8067 memory 256k >> M8029 RX02 >> M8061 RL02 >> M8639 HD controller >> >> Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >> I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its >> a bad >> controller card. >> >> The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot >> from it. i get >> an >> >> error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the >> RX02 , I get >> >> 'cant read directory ' >> >> Any words of wisdom out there >> >> Thanks, Jerry > > > What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two > set the same? I assume you have a drive # plug in the front of the > RL02 drive? Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use your hard drive on the M8639 controller? Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should not be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. I was going to ask about an M9047 bus grant card, but the configuration you have does not require one. Since the M8029 drive is working, the two quad cards below the M8029 should be OK even in a BA23 box. Jerome Fine From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 8 09:46:45 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 07:46:45 -0800 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> On 1/7/13 10:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > (*stillneed a Command/Language ROS board since it turns out my 5120 had not one but two bad ROS boards Apparently, failing ROS boards are quite common in the 51xx series. It would be a good thing to get the contents of working ones archived. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 8 10:09:23 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 16:09:23 +0000 Subject: Recovering DC42 images? Message-ID: Hi all, This is one I've been working on for a bit without success, and I'm hoping the community has some ideas to offer. I'm attempting to recover the Lisa Xenix images on BitSavers so I can boot up a Lisa for an exhibit. I've managed to get the images onto a Mac IIci over the network (rather than through the dance of PC to Mac file formats), but DiskCopy 4.2 doesn't recognize them. I used the boot.dc42 image on LisaEm and got it to boot as far as it will (Ray acknowledges in the documents that Xenix doesn't work on LisaEm yet), but of course the emulation is likely written to the image: still, it suggests the images are likely OK. I found information that suggested it was necessary to use an older Mac to generate the correct disk format: I've formatted my 400K disks on a Mac Plus under System 6.0.3, and run DC on that Mac, too. Still no joy. Any suggestions? Thanks -- Ian From polemon at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 10:24:05 2013 From: polemon at gmail.com (polemon) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 17:24:05 +0100 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <1357592958.86751.YahooMailNeo@web124901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Can I order them with IBM instead of HAL? :) > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Gauger-Cosgrove" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 10:10 PM > Subject: Re: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? > >> You also have to replace the 'H' with an 'S' as well. >> >> On 7 January 2013 18:12, Joe Giliberti wrote: >>> >>> Can you change the eye color to blue and replace Douglas Rain with >>> Candace Bergan? >>> >>> On 1/7/13, Christian Liendo wrote: >>>> >>>> Looks like thinkgeek made replicas >>>> >>>> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/f29d/#tabs >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Joseph Giliberti >>> InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum >>> Get more information at http://www.infoage.org Well, it looks really good, but in the little video they have on their site, the sound quality seems to be utter crap. It would be nice as an interface for Siri, but it's in no way customizable. And paying for a novelty item 500 USD, and then having to mod it, is ridiculous. It needs an interface so it can work with Siri and a wide-band speaker (like the ones on portable iPod speakers, etc), so the sound quality would be better. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 8 10:50:19 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 08:50:19 -0800 Subject: Don Maslin archive... In-Reply-To: <20130108113807.GA27490@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <1565791248-1357255979-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1654488766-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130104085531.H8770@shell.lmi.net> <50E71A4C.3080502@jwsss.com> <50E8B634.1090306@sydex.com> <20130108113807.GA27490@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <50EC4E4B.60007@sydex.com> On 01/08/2013 03:38 AM, David Cantrell wrote: > Every Ye Olde piece of computerised industrial equipment I've seen has > some way of getting data into it, most have some way of getting data out > and many have some way of updating the software on them. Often it's > just a serial port that speaks some proprietary protocol, but having a > floppy (carefully protected from airborne oil and dust!) is pretty > common. Sure, but consider the CNC machine as a virus. Those floppies used to boot the controller often never get their write-protected status changed. Boot the machine, download the design data, run the job. No path for propagation. The floppy is used only as a bootup medium. --Chuck From d235j.1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 11:16:02 2013 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 12:16:02 -0500 Subject: Recovering DC42 images? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: DiskCopy 4.2 won't recognize images if the file type and creator code aren't set, so you need to use ResEdit or another tool to set them correctly. The type should be 'dImg' and the creator should be 'dCpy'. --Dave On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ian King wrote: > Hi all, > > This is one I've been working on for a bit without success, and I'm hoping > the community has some ideas to offer. > > I'm attempting to recover the Lisa Xenix images on BitSavers so I can boot > up a Lisa for an exhibit. I've managed to get the images onto a Mac IIci > over the network (rather than through the dance of PC to Mac file > formats), but DiskCopy 4.2 doesn't recognize them. I used the boot.dc42 > image on LisaEm and got it to boot as far as it will (Ray acknowledges in > the documents that Xenix doesn't work on LisaEm yet), but of course the > emulation is likely written to the image: still, it suggests the images > are likely OK. > > I found information that suggested it was necessary to use an older Mac to > generate the correct disk format: I've formatted my 400K disks on a Mac > Plus under System 6.0.3, and run DC on that Mac, too. Still no joy. > > Any suggestions? Thanks -- Ian > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 8 11:58:56 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:58:56 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 113, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Michael Thompson writes: > The RICM has lots of them: > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ibm-series1 The University of Delaware Electrical Engineering department had several of these in their machine room circa 1982. I can't remember what they were used for; I think it was for research being done by a particular professor because I don't recall ever hearing of them being used for student work. Instead we were using the PDP-11/70, and I think later a VAX, for C and FORTRAN related homework. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 8 12:01:44 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:01:44 -0700 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Randy Dawson writes: > Any of these lying around? I ask every year or so... I have had ebay searches running for 10+ years and have never turned up anything. I think these things are extremely scarce to non-existent at this point. I don't recall hearing of any in the hands of collectors anywhere, but of course, as soon as I say this, someone will pop up and say "I have 3". :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 8 12:18:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 10:18:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130108101704.H93004@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Richard wrote: > non-existent at this point. I don't recall hearing of any in the > hands of collectors anywhere, but of course, as soon as I say this, > someone will pop up and say "I have 3". :-) or "I had 4, couldn't find any takers, and paid an e-waste fee for disposal" From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 8 12:28:59 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:28:59 -0800 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> On 1/8/13 10:01 AM, Richard wrote: > I think these things are extremely scarce to > non-existent a few still exist http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1570.98A http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1568.98A http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1570.98A http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102646979 From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 8 12:35:58 2013 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 19:35:58 +0100 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy disk images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EC670E.8080305@xs4all.nl> bear (r.stricklin) wrote wrote: > > to ImageDisk or Tim Mann's catweasel tools. Recently I did add a raw dump option to cw2dmk, but that does not quite fall in the "all the dirty work" category ;-). Fred Jan From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 12:52:50 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:52:50 -0800 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> References: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50EC6B02.4010007@gmail.com> On 1/8/2013 10:28 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102646979 > > > "Object consists of CPU and 2 power cords. Letter taped to top of machine opens "Warning opening the case on this computer will probably cause the multilayer motherboard to crack, rendering the machine useless." That must makes things difficult. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 8 12:57:00 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:57:00 -0700 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> References: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <50EC656B.3020601 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 1/8/13 10:01 AM, Richard wrote: > > I think these things are extremely scarce to > > non-existent > > a few still exist > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1570.98A > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1568.98A > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X1570.98A > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102646979 Yeah, I think in the CHM's catalog is about the only place I've been able to find them. It's good to know that at least 1 instance is preserved, my "scarce to non-existent" was referring to marketplace availability for collectors. I've been looking for these "graphics supercomputers" for the Computer Graphics Museum for about 10 years now and so far haven't had any leads. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 13:02:30 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 17:02:30 -0200 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe References: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> <50EC6B02.4010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: > "Object consists of CPU and 2 power cords. Letter taped to top of machine > opens "Warning opening the case on this computer will probably cause the > multilayer motherboard to crack, rendering the machine useless." > That must makes things difficult. They don't want eavesedroppers...No chinese clones of any kind! :oD From duane.platfoot at us.schindler.com Tue Jan 8 10:20:26 2013 From: duane.platfoot at us.schindler.com (duane.platfoot at us.schindler.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 11:20:26 -0500 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Message-ID: Hello I'm trying to fix a Diablo drive Are you familiar with the Diablo Disk drives _____________________________________________________________ Duane Platfoot | Field Engineer Phone 937.214.4355 | Mobile 937.214.4355 | Fax 419-861-5901 duane.platfoot at us.schindler.com Schindler Elevator Corp | RNE 1530 Timberwolf Dr |Holland, OH 43528, USA www.us.schindler.com (Embedded image moved to file: pic06287.gif)Please consider your environment. Schindler supports sustainable urban development with safe, reliable and ecologically sound mobility solutions. ****************************************************** Notice: The information contained in this message is intended only for use of the individual(s) named above and may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate , copy it in any form or take any action in reliance of it. If you have received this message in error please delete it and any copies of it and notify the sender immediately. ******************************************************* From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 8 14:10:14 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 12:10:14 -0800 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EC7D26.2090008@bitsavers.org> On 1/8/13 8:20 AM, duane.platfoot at us.schindler.com wrote: > Are you familiar with the Diablo Disk drives > yes From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 8 14:20:56 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 20:20:56 +0000 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E037@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Zane H. Healy Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 9:16 PM At 8:58 PM -0800 1/7/13, David Griffith wrote: >> Just saw this at alt.sys.pdp10. Some of you are aware that Mark >> Crispin was very ill and in hospice. > As if today didn't suck bad enough already. I hadn't even heard that > he was sick. Do you happen to know what the last release of the > Panda TOPS-20 distribution was, and if it's been archived? I have agreed to recover the Tops-20 mailing list from Lingling.Panda.com and host it on our Toad-1, a request Mark made of me long ago. I will look into recovering the last Panda distribution bits at the same time. Please allow us some time for mourning before that happens. Mark was a good friend, responsible for my move from Chicago to Stanford nearly 30 years ago. The universe is a lonelier place without him. Rich Alderson LOTS Tops-20 System Programmer, 1984-1991 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 14:34:41 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 15:34:41 -0500 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E037@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E037@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > I have agreed to recover the Tops-20 mailing list from Lingling.Panda.com > and host it on our Toad-1, a request Mark made of me long ago. I will > look into recovering the last Panda distribution bits at the same time. > Please allow us some time for mourning before that happens. Rich, Thank you for taking this over. I am in no hurry for a new release, but I will be happy to hear of one whenever it does happen. I didn't know Mark well, but I did converse with him a bit over the Panda distribution and the Spare Time Gizmos "Panda Display". I know I've benefited from his labors and am sorry to hear he's gone. -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 8 15:10:41 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 21:10:41 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <505A02A9-518E-4927-AA63-33C6207B8767@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 1/7/13 8:50 PM, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: >>> On 2013 Jan 7, at 4:52 PM, jim s wrote: >> >> .. What I want is a functional wall of clear memory cells to play >> with and Keir Dullea's fancy key to eject them. > >And a zero-gravity environment to access it. > > > NOW you're talking! From g-wright at att.net Tue Jan 8 15:30:23 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 13:30:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Jerome H. Fine To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, January 8, 2013 7:22:48 AM Subject: Re: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: > >> The system has >> >> M8189 cpu >> M8067 memory 256k >> M8029 RX02 >> M8061 RL02 >> M8639 HD controller >> >> Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >> I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a bad >> controller card. >> >> The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot from it. i >>get >> an >> >> error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the RX02 , I >>get >> >> 'cant read directory ' >> >> Any words of wisdom out there >> >> Thanks, Jerry > > > What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two set the >same? I assume you have a drive # >plug in the front of the RL02 drive? Not to sure how the RX02 card is set right now, would have to look tonight. I will try the system with out the RX02 card also. The Drive ID Plug is set to drive 0 > Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? Yes, thats on my list. Does the system consider the RL02 drive and M8029 controller card as one ??? Or does 'controller not found" mean much. >Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. >Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use >your hard drive on the M8639 controller? > Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should not >be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. Yes it is a BA23 box and the M8639 does boot the RX50 and Hard drive. It also boots from the RX02 > I was going to ask about an M9047 bus grant card, but the configuration >you have does not require one. Since the M8029 drive is working, the >two quad cards below the M8029 should be OK even in a BA23 box. >Jerome Fine - Jerry From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 8 15:33:42 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 21:33:42 +0000 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/7/13 12:16 PM, "Henk Gooijen" wrote: >From: "geneb" >Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 8:38 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) > >[... snip ...] > >> I...I...wow. >> >> It's not often I get out-geeked, but...just.. wow. >> >> Here, sign my Geek Card. :) >> >> g. >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > >Well, it's not only a "Geek Card" ... >Cool, that your car license plate is "F15SIM" !! > >- Henk, PA8PDP > www. pdp-11.nl/viperpit > > > > ...and that our call signs are PDP. Geek is everywhere. -- Ian K7PDP From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 8 15:33:51 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 13:33:51 -0800 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E037@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E037@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: At 8:20 PM +0000 1/8/13, Rich Alderson wrote: >I have agreed to recover the Tops-20 mailing list from Lingling.Panda.com >and host it on our Toad-1, a request Mark made of me long ago. I will >look into recovering the last Panda distribution bits at the same time. >Please allow us some time for mourning before that happens. I for one am in no hurry, I was simply hoping that his work hadn't been lost. >The universe is a lonelier place without him. Agreed. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:00:06 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:00:06 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 113, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EC96E6.6090808@gmail.com> On 08/01/2013 17:58, Richard wrote: > In article , > Michael Thompson writes: > >> The RICM has lots of them: >> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ibm-series1 > The University of Delaware Electrical Engineering department had > several of these in their machine room circa 1982. I can't remember > what they were used for; I think it was for research being done by a > particular professor because I don't recall ever hearing of them being > used for student work. Instead we were using the PDP-11/70, and I > think later a VAX, for C and FORTRAN related homework. In the UK we used them to provide X.25 connections to VM/CMS but I have forgotten everything I ever knew about them... From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:05:53 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 17:05:53 -0500 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: <50EC656B.3020601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Yeah, I think in the CHM's catalog is about the only place I've been > able to find them. It's good to know that at least 1 instance is > preserved, my "scarce to non-existent" was referring to marketplace > availability for collectors. I've been looking for these "graphics > supercomputers" for the Computer Graphics Museum for about 10 years > now and so far haven't had any leads. I am pretty sure Ira Moser had a Stardent for sale a while back, maybe 7 years ago? I am also pretty sure I have seen a Stardent on Ebay 5 years ago or so. Just to make you feel bad... -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 8 16:21:27 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 14:21:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Ian King wrote: > On 1/7/13 12:16 PM, "Henk Gooijen" wrote: > >> From: "geneb" >> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 8:38 PM >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) >> >> [... snip ...] >> >>> I...I...wow. >>> >>> It's not often I get out-geeked, but...just.. wow. >>> >>> Here, sign my Geek Card. :) >>> >>> g. >>> >>> -- >>> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >>> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >>> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >>> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >> >> Well, it's not only a "Geek Card" ... >> Cool, that your car license plate is "F15SIM" !! >> >> - Henk, PA8PDP >> www. pdp-11.nl/viperpit > > ...and that our call signs are PDP. Geek is everywhere. -- Ian K7PDP I'm trying for a *7MOS. We'll see what happens. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jan 8 16:43:27 2013 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 14:43:27 -0800 Subject: Update to PDP-8 Spacewar to resolve VC8/E issues Message-ID: <20130108144327.5b413735@asrock.bcwi.net> I had often run D.E. WREGE's version of Spacewar! on my PDP-12. But when I tried to run it on my PDP-8/E with a VC8/E and DEC VT01 (Tek 611), I would get flashing artifacts on the screen in addition to the normal display. I initially thought I had a hardware problem - but I could only get my VC8/E and VT01 combination to fail while running DEC's VC8/E diagnostics by setting the timing switch on the VC8/E incorrectly. When I initially looked over the VC8/E code in SPCWAR, it looked O.K. and I thought the problem was likely in the clock or interrupt code. After reviewing it extensively and not finding an issue, I tried multiple hardware clocks (EP, EC) and various VC8/E settings without success. Finally, I revisited the VC8/E code in SPCWAR - and the problem turned out to be a subtle bug in the VC8/E code. According to DEC's VC8/E writeup in the LAB 8/E manual, a "wait for done" should be given AFTER the last LOAD command (X or Y) is given and BEFORE the intensify command. In other words the code should be: TAD X /Get X coordinate DILX /Send to VC8/E TAD Y /Get Y coordinate DILY /Send to VC8/E DISD /Skip on done JMP .-1 /Wait until done DIXY /Display (Intensify) XY point ... The original SPCWAR code it was: Get X DILX /Send to VC8/E Get Y DILY /Send to VC8/E DIXY /Display (Intensify) XY point DISD /Skip on done JMP .-1 /Wait until done Because of the above coding error, the VC8/E analog output would not "settle" the correct amount of time (which for a VT01 is about 80 microseconds) because a DIXY command was given immediately after the DILY. This error created artifacts on the screen because the intensify command was in effect while the VT01 was still in the process of moving it's "beam" to the correct location. BTW: Slower displays, such as the VT01/Tek611/Tek613, do NOT need a clock to slow down Spacewar to an appropriate speed. If you would like a copy of the corrected SPCWAR.PA or a listing (SPCWAR.LS), you can get them via anonymous FTP to bickleywest.com or via your browser at ftp://bickleywest.com/pdp8_spcwar/ While I was at it, I also added an assembly option to start SPCWAR in Spaceship mode (per the original Spacewar!) as opposed to UFO mode. Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 8 16:48:56 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 14:48:56 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51D90AAB-6EF0-487B-A8A5-CCDD479B8068@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Jan 8, at 1:10 PM, Ian King wrote: > On 1/7/13 8:50 PM, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: >>>> On 2013 Jan 7, at 4:52 PM, jim s wrote: >>> >>> .. What I want is a functional wall of clear memory cells to play >>> with and Keir Dullea's fancy key to eject them. >> >> And a zero-gravity environment to access it. >> > NOW you're talking! If you like to see behind-the-scenes of movies and don't mind having the cinematic fantasy tainted a little, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1r5dOwUS6Y Go to 7:20. That's Kubrick and another fellow standing inside HAL. (I'm not convinced by the guy's argument about IBM and HAL. The connections he makes are a little pained and presumptive.) From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 17:02:00 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 15:02:00 -0800 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/7/13 10:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > (*stillneed a Command/Language ROS board since it turns out my 5120 had >> not one but two bad ROS boards >> > > Apparently, failing ROS boards are quite common in the 51xx series. > It would be a good thing to get the contents of working ones archived. > > > That's been my experience thus far... It looks like Christian Corti's worked out how to do this, but I don't know if he's made the archives public: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/ibm_5110/technik/en/index.html The 5120 ROS is identical to the 5110 as far as I know. I don't know how applicable the above is to the 5100, I assume it's a bit different (and I don't have one to try it out on). It'd be nice to know what chips correspond to what portions of the ROS tests -- I have two bad Command/Language ROS boards from the two 5120s I have and they fail diagnostics in different places. I'm sure I could make one working board from the two if I knew which chips were bad on each one. It'd also be fun to find some software for this, but I haven't tracked any down. - Josh From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Jan 8 17:11:25 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 15:11:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Internet has turned 30 years old Message-ID: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> " 30 years ago, at flip of a switch, the internet as we know it WAS BORN How TCP/IP nearly fell at the first hurdle By Gavin Clarke ? Get more from this author Posted in Networks, 3rd January 2013 08:59?GMT Thirty years ago this week the modern internet became operational as the US military flipped the switch on TCP/IP, but the move to the protocol stack was nearly killed at birth. The deadline was 1 January, 1983: after this, any of the Advanced Research Projects Agency Network's (ARPANET) 400 hosts that were still clinging to the existing, host-to-host Network Control Protocol (NCP) were to be cut off. The move to packet switching with TCP/IP was simultaneous and co-ordinated with the community in the years before 1983. More than 15 government and university institutions from NASA AMES to Harvard University used NCP on ARPANET. With so many users, though, there was plenty of disagreement. The deadline was ultimately set because everybody using ARPANET was convinced of the need for wholesale change. TCP/IP was the co-creation of Vint Cerf and Robert Kahn, who published their paper, A Protocol for Packet Network Interconnection in 1974. ARPANET was the wide-area network sponsored by the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) that went live in 1969, while Cerf had been an ARPANET scientist at Stanford University. The military had become interested in a common protocol as different networks and systems using different protocols began to hook up to ARPANET and found they couldn?t easily talk to each other, Cerf, who today is vice-president and "chief internet evangelist" at Google, announced the 30th anniversary of the TCP/IP switchover in an official Google blog post titled "Marking the birth of the modern-day Internet". The 1983 deadline?s passing was anticlimactic, Cerf recalls, considering how important TCP/IP became as an enabler for the internet. Cerf writes: When the day came, it?s fair to say the main emotion was relief, especially amongst those system administrators racing against the clock. There were no grand celebrations?I can?t even find a photograph. The only visible mementos were the ?I survived the TCP/IP switchover? pins proudly worn by those who went through the ordeal! >Yet, with hindsight, it?s obvious it was a momentous occasion. On that day, the operational Internet was born. TCP/IP went on to be embraced as an international standard, and now underpins the entire Internet. It was a significant moment, and without TCP/IP we wouldn?t have the internet as we know it. But that wasn?t the end of the story, and three years later TCP/IP was in trouble as it suffered from severe congestion to the point of collapse. TCP/IP had been adopted by the US military in 1980 following successful tests across three separate networks, and when it went live ARPANET was managing 400 nodes. After the January 1983 switchover, though, so many computer users were starting to connect to ARPANET - and across ARPANET to other networks - that traffic had started to hit bottlenecks. By 1986 there were 28,000 nodes chattering across ARPANET, causing congestion with speeds dropping from 32Kbps to 40bps across relatively small distances. It fell to TCP/IP contributor Van Jacobson, who?d spotted the slowdown between his lab in Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and the University of California at Berkeley ? just 400 yards and two IMP hops apart ? to save TCP/IP and the operational internet. Jacobson devised a congestion-avoidance algorithm to lower a computer's network data transfer speed and settle on a stable but slower connection rather than blindly flooding the network with packets. The algorithm allowed TCP/IP systems to process lots of requests in a more conservative fashion. The fix was first applied as a client-side patch to PCs by sysadmins and then incorporated into the TCP/IP stack. Jacobson went on to author the Congestion Avoidance and Control (SIGCOMM 88) paper (here) while the internet marched on to about one billion nodes. And even this is not the end of the story. Years later, in an interview with The Reg, Jacobson reckoned TCP/IP faces another crisis - and, again, it's scalability. This time, the problem is millions of users surfing towards the same web destinations for the same content, such as a piece of news or video footage on YouTube. Jacobson, a Xerox PARC research fellow and former Cisco chief scientist, told us in 2010 about his work on Content-Centric Networking, a network architecture to cache content locally to avoid everybody hitting exactly the same servers simultaneously. You can read more here. ? " - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/03/operational_internet_anniversary/ i've been meaning to post this PS: I was born in 1983 :cry: --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2,? Raspberry Pi model B, Microbee?Premium Plus+, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only)? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 8 17:57:15 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 12:57:15 +1300 Subject: the Internet has turned 30 years old In-Reply-To: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good article. Thanks for sharing Tom. Terry (Tez) On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > " > 30 years ago, at flip of a switch, the internet as we know it WAS BORN > How TCP/IP nearly fell at the first hurdle > By Gavin Clarke ? Get more from this author > Posted in Networks, 3rd January 2013 08:59 GMT > > Thirty years ago this week > the modern internet became operational as the US military flipped the > switch on TCP/IP, but the move to the protocol stack was nearly killed > at birth. > The deadline was 1 January, 1983: after this, any of the Advanced > Research Projects Agency Network's (ARPANET) 400 hosts that were still > clinging to the existing, host-to-host Network Control Protocol (NCP) > were to be cut off. > The move to packet switching with TCP/IP was simultaneous and > co-ordinated with the community in the years before 1983. More than 15 > government and university institutions from NASA AMES to Harvard > University used NCP on ARPANET. > With so many users, though, there was plenty of disagreement. The > deadline was ultimately set because everybody using ARPANET was > convinced of the need for wholesale change. > TCP/IP was the co-creation of Vint Cerf and Robert Kahn, who published their paper, A Protocol for Packet Network Interconnection in 1974. > ARPANET was the wide-area network sponsored by the US Defense > Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) that went live in 1969, while > Cerf had been an ARPANET scientist at Stanford University. The military > had become interested in a common protocol as different networks and > systems using different protocols began to hook up to ARPANET and found > they couldn?t easily talk to each other, > Cerf, who today is vice-president and "chief internet evangelist" at > Google, announced the 30th anniversary of the TCP/IP switchover in an > official Google blog post titled "Marking the birth of the modern-day > Internet". > The 1983 deadline?s passing was anticlimactic, Cerf recalls, > considering how important TCP/IP became as an enabler for the internet. Cerf writes: > When the day came, it?s fair to say the main emotion was > relief, especially amongst those system administrators racing against > the clock. There were no grand celebrations?I can?t even find a > photograph. The only visible mementos were the ?I survived the TCP/IP > switchover? pins proudly worn by those who went through the ordeal! >>Yet, with hindsight, it?s obvious it was a momentous occasion. On > that day, the operational Internet was born. TCP/IP went on to be > embraced as an international standard, and now underpins the entire > Internet. > It was a significant moment, and without TCP/IP we wouldn?t have the internet as we know it. > But that wasn?t the end of the story, and three years later TCP/IP was in trouble as it suffered from severe congestion to the point of collapse. > TCP/IP had been adopted by the US military in 1980 following > successful tests across three separate networks, and when it went live > ARPANET was managing 400 nodes. > After the January 1983 switchover, though, so many computer users > were starting to connect to ARPANET - and across ARPANET to other > networks - that traffic had started to hit bottlenecks. By 1986 there > were 28,000 nodes chattering across ARPANET, causing congestion with > speeds dropping from 32Kbps to 40bps across relatively small distances. > It fell to TCP/IP contributor Van Jacobson, who?d spotted the > slowdown between his lab in Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and > the University of California at Berkeley ? just 400 yards and two IMP > hops apart ? to save TCP/IP and the operational internet. > Jacobson devised a congestion-avoidance algorithm to lower a > computer's network data transfer speed and settle on a stable but slower connection rather than blindly flooding the network with packets. > The algorithm allowed TCP/IP systems to process lots of requests in a more conservative fashion. The fix was first applied as a client-side > patch to PCs by sysadmins and then incorporated into the TCP/IP stack. > Jacobson went on to author the Congestion Avoidance and Control (SIGCOMM 88) paper (here) while the internet marched on to about one billion nodes. > And even this is not the end of the story. Years later, in an interview with The Reg, Jacobson reckoned TCP/IP faces another crisis - and, again, it's scalability. > This time, the problem is millions of users surfing towards the same > web destinations for the same content, such as a piece of news or video > footage on YouTube. Jacobson, a Xerox PARC research fellow and former > Cisco chief scientist, told us in 2010 about his work on Content-Centric Networking, a network architecture to cache content locally to avoid everybody > hitting exactly the same servers simultaneously. You can read more here. ? > " - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/03/operational_internet_anniversary/ > > i've been meaning to post this > PS: I was born in 1983 :cry: > > > --- > tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" > Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks > 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, > Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Raspberry Pi model B, Microbee Premium Plus+, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, > Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter > Wanted: GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Jan 8 19:24:32 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 20:24:32 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50ECC6D0.2070600@verizon.net> On 01/08/2013 04:30 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jerome H. Fine > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Tue, January 8, 2013 7:22:48 AM > Subject: Re: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. > >> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >>> The system has >>> >>> M8189 cpu >>> M8067 memory 256k >>> M8029 RX02 >>> M8061 RL02 >>> M8639 HD controller >>> >>> Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >>> I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a bad >>> controller card. >>> >>> The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot from it. i >>> get >>> an >>> >>> error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the RX02 , I >>> get >>> >>> 'cant read directory' >>> >>> Any words of wisdom out there >>> >>> Thanks, Jerry >> >> What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two set the >> same? I assume you have a drive # >plug in the front of the RL02 drive? > > Not to sure how the RX02 card is set right now, would have to look > tonight. I will try the system with out the RX02 card also. > > The Drive ID Plug is set to drive 0 > > >> Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? > Yes, thats on my list. Does the system consider the RL02 drive and > M8029 controller card as one ??? Or does 'controller not found" mean > much. > >> Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. >> Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use >> your hard drive on the M8639 controller? >> Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should not >> be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. > Yes it is a BA23 box and the M8639 does boot the RX50 and Hard drive. > It also boots from the RX02 > >> I was going to ask about an M9047 bus grant card, but the configuration >> you have does not require one. Since the M8029 drive is working, the >> two quad cards below the M8029 should be OK even in a BA23 box. I'd have to look but I though the BA23 had four of the slots AB, then the rest were AB/AB serpentine below that. Sounds like the wrong slot for the RLV21 controller. Try putting a bus grant in that AB slot and moving everything down. Allison From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 8 19:30:54 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 17:30:54 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <51D90AAB-6EF0-487B-A8A5-CCDD479B8068@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51D90AAB-6EF0-487B-A8A5-CCDD479B8068@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <50ECC84E.7020702@jwsss.com> On 1/8/2013 2:48 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > If you like to see behind-the-scenes of movies and don't mind having > the cinematic fantasy tainted a little, see: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1r5dOwUS6Y > > Go to 7:20. That's Kubrick and another fellow standing inside HAL. > > (I'm not convinced by the guy's argument about IBM and HAL. The > connections he makes are a little pained and presumptive.) I totally agree. The production musical score for instance was an accident, though later the use of all the classical music in the sound track was claimed to be visionary by those around the film. In truth the composer was having a hard time with his task, and didn't deliver in time to get the music recorded and added to the film, so they recorded and left in the tracks used for editing and timing. I suspect also that there were deals in place with IBM as well as obviously with ATT / Bell (honestly don't recall what it was then) and IBM found out that it's big scene was that its sponsored character was to murder the crew and pulled out. Too much primary photography would have had to be reshot to pull that. Hopefully someone will eventually complete the archival and organization of what Kubrick left behind and can study that. He was a huge packrat like a lot of us are, and hopefully didn't succeed in purging all traces of what went on from his boxes of stuff. This guy is clearly looking for mystical connections that might exists in other parts of the movie, but probably has a simpler explanation. It is more probably that the IBM that is claimed to possibly claimed to be projected onto the face of one of the astronauts when he is trying to raise HAL from the pod is actually more of an early version of something like the tricks that the Disney people used to jazz up some frames of Jessica Rabbit than a vailed reference to IBM for some plot effect. jim From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 20:00:11 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 21:00:11 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <50ECC6D0.2070600@verizon.net> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50ECC6D0.2070600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <82D07863-A7A3-46BB-B784-71A8DA86EEE8@gmail.com> On Jan 8, 2013, at 20:24, allison wrote: > I'd have to look but I though the BA23 had four of the slots AB, then the rest were AB/AB > serpentine below that. Close; first three slots. BA123 is first four. - Dave From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 8 20:09:38 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 02:09:38 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <50ECC84E.7020702@jwsss.com> References: <51D90AAB-6EF0-487B-A8A5-CCDD479B8068@cs.ubc.ca> <50ECC84E.7020702@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E297@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jim Stephens Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 5:31 PM > It is more probably that the IBM that is claimed to possibly claimed > to be projected onto the face of one of the astronauts when he is > trying to raise HAL from the pod is actually more of an early version > of something like the tricks that the Disney people used to jazz up > some frames of Jessica Rabbit than a vailed reference to IBM for some > plot effect. ITYM Betty Boop. When she says "I still got it, Eddie!", OrSoI'veHeard(TM). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 8 20:30:24 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 18:30:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E297@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at "Jan 9, 13 02:09:38 am" Message-ID: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> > > It is more probably that the IBM that is claimed to possibly claimed > > to be projected onto the face of one of the astronauts when he is > > trying to raise HAL from the pod is actually more of an early version > > of something like the tricks that the Disney people used to jazz up > > some frames of Jessica Rabbit than a vailed reference to IBM for some > > plot effect. > > ITYM Betty Boop. When she says "I still got it, Eddie!", OrSoI'veHeard(TM). No, he's talking about this: http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/jessica.asp -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- With a rubber duck, one's never alone. -- Douglas Adams, "HGTTG" ----------- From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jan 8 20:37:27 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 02:37:27 +0000 Subject: RIP Mark Crispin Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2527966B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> I traded E-mails with Mark for three different decades and got to visit him several times in the 90's whenever I was passing through Seattle. Hop on the ferry, have deep political discussions with him (although I never exactly agreed with him he was always willing to discuss!) at the diner, and play with KS-10's, TU-77's, and Massbus disks. Rest in peace, Mark. Tim. From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 21:02:08 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 03:02:08 +0000 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E7C1F3.3010003@brouhaha.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50E7C1F3.3010003@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <948104036-1357700528-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1138391327-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> I think it was an episode of computer chronicles (via archive.org) I was watching that was showing off a new cd based encyclopedia. Bragging about the capacity and amount of cds and it could be used on the $800 cd player for the ibm pc. I think the episode of dr who representing our history with "the ipod" (a jukebox) is pretty likely though. Technically 50 years from right now would be quad core processors and lcd flat panels. I'd almost dare to say an fps gaming rig might represent 2012s home computer. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 23:02:27 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: NASA computers circa 1969 Tim Shoppa wrote: > I'm sure somebody here did it. 5150 with a CM153 card for Philips > CM100 player? I lost track of the thread somehow, so I'm not sure *what* somebody here did. I have some CM100 players but no CM153 cards. I think the player is equivalent to the DEC RRD50, so it should also work with a KRQ50 (M7552) for a Qbus system, but I don't have one of those either. Some years back I reverse-engineered two versions of the CM100 firmware (8051). The interface uses DA15 connectors with four EIA-422 differential pairs. If they had made the interface only a *tiny* bit different, they could have supported eight CM100 drives on a single host adapter. The CM110 is the same drive with an additional board that interfaces it to SCSI, but I've never gotten my hands on one. Eric From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 8 21:04:22 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 19:04:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Internet has turned 30 years old In-Reply-To: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Tom Sparks wrote: > " > 30 years ago, at flip of a switch, the internet as we know it WAS BORN > How TCP/IP nearly fell at the first hurdle > By Gavin Clarke ? Get more from this author > Posted in Networks, 3rd January 2013 08:59?GMT > This would be a good time to remind folks of nntp.olduse.net. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 21:12:22 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 19:12:22 -0800 Subject: Motorola 6800 evaluation kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2013 4:15 PM, "Stacy Carr" wrote: > > I am looking for a Motorola 6800 evaluation kit with books. I sold one > that I built in 1976 which I sold in 1992. I would like to find one > that is for sale, hopefully the same one, if not one in good shape. Which one? http://www.68bits.com/mek6800d1.html http://www.68bits.com/mek6800d2.html From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 8 21:33:33 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:33:33 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50ECE50D.40003@compsys.to> >Jerry Wright wrote: >>>>At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >>> >>> >>>The system has >>> >>>M8189 cpu >>>M8067 memory 256k >>>M8029 RX02 >>>M8061 RL02 >>>M8639 HD controller >>> >>>Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >>>I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a bad >>>controller card. >>> >>>The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot from it. i >>>get >>>an >>> >>>error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the RX02 , I >>>get >>> >>>'cant read directory ' >>> >>>Any words of wisdom out there >>> >>>Thanks, Jerry >>> >>> >>What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two set the >>same? I assume you have a drive # >plug in the front of the RL02 drive? >> >Not to sure how the RX02 card is set right now, would have to look >tonight. I will try the system with out the RX02 card also. > > The Drive ID Plug is set to drive 0 > >>Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? >> >> > >Yes, thats on my list. Does the system consider the RL02 drive and >M8029 controller card as one ??? Or does 'controller not found" mean >much. > The M8029 and the M8061 are totally separate devices and do NOT interact with each other. The standard CSR,VECTOR for each are totally different. If both are working correctly, you can remove one or the other and still operate. IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!! A BA23 has the top 3 slots ABCD. The other 5 slots are ABAB and must be filled to provide bus continuity up to that point in the chain. An RQDX1 MUST be the last board in the chain since it does not provide bus continuity. Unused slots at the end of the bus grant chain are not a problem and can remain empty. If you remove the M8029, move up the M8061 and the M8639 boards one slot since you can't leave the 3rd slot empty. BUT, if you place the M8061 in the 3rd slot, on a BA23, the M8029 will require a bus grant card in the dual slot beside it in the 4th quad slot or the M8639 below it will not work. If the M8639 in an RQDX2 (an RQDX2 is an M8639-YB), then you can place the M8639-YB in the 4th slot and the M8029 in the far right of the 5th slot - otherwise you will require an M9047 in the far right of the 5th slot if the M8029 is in the far left of the 5th slot. The configuration you have right now with slot 2 and slot 3 half filled is correct. Each of the dual boards in slot 2 and slot 3 are on the extreme left which is correct. If the boards were not in the correct place, you could not boot with the RX02. >>Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. >>Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use >>your hard drive on the M8639 controller? >> >>Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should not >>be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. >> >Yes it is a BA23 box and the M8639 does boot the RX50 and Hard drive. >It also boots from the RX02 > Since the RX02, RX50 and Hard drive all boot, I would suggest that the RL02 hardware seems to have an isolated problem. After you boot RT-11, perform: SHOW DEVICE command and see if the M8061 controller has been recognized. Since you have strapped the M8061 as the factory setting, it should be at the standard CSR and VECTOR. RT-11 will display: "Not installed" if the M8061 is not recognized (something is not working). If: "Installed" is displayed, then the M8061 is being recognized, although that does not mean the M8061 is working correctly. Which you obviously realize, but are asking for help in determining what exactly is the problem: (a) M8061 controller (b) RL02 drive (c) Cables (d) Rl02 pack While cables may be OK, it is possible to connect them backwards. If I remember correctly, when that happens, the RL02 RED fault light is on - unless it is burned out. Of course, one of the cables could have a broken wire. At this point, it seems like you have the RL02 isolated as the problem, but you will need help from a hardware individual to figure out the best way to solve the problem. BUT, be very careful since a bad pack can damage a drive which then damages other packs. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 8 21:43:57 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:43:57 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <50ECC6D0.2070600@verizon.net> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50ECC6D0.2070600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50ECE77D.90400@compsys.to> >allison wrote: > >On 01/08/2013 04:30 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: > >>>> At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >>>> The system has >>>> >>>> M8189 cpu >>>> M8067 memory 256k >>>> M8029 RX02 >>>> M8061 RL02 >>>> M8639 HD controller >>>> >>>> Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >>>> I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance >>>> its a bad >>>> controller card. >>>> >>>> The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot >>>> from it. i >>>> get >>>> an >>>> >>>> error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the >>>> RX02 , I >>>> get >>>> >>>> 'cant read directory' >>>> >>>> Any words of wisdom out there >>>> >>>> Thanks, Jerry >>> >>> >>> What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have >>> two set the >>> same? I assume you have a drive # >plug in the front of the RL02 >>> drive? >> >> >> Not to sure how the RX02 card is set right now, would have to look >> tonight. I will try the system with out the RX02 card also. >> >> The Drive ID Plug is set to drive 0 >> >> >>> Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? >> >> Yes, thats on my list. Does the system consider the RL02 drive and >> M8029 controller card as one ??? Or does 'controller not found" mean >> much. >> >>> Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. >>> Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use >>> your hard drive on the M8639 controller? >>> Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should >>> not >>> be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. >> >> Yes it is a BA23 box and the M8639 does boot the RX50 and Hard drive. >> It also boots from the RX02 >> >>> I was going to ask about an M9047 bus grant card, but the configuration >>> you have does not require one. Since the M8029 drive is working, the >>> two quad cards below the M8029 should be OK even in a BA23 box. >> > I'd have to look but I though the BA23 had four of the slots AB, then > the rest were AB/AB > serpentine below that. > > Sounds like the wrong slot for the RLV21 controller. Try putting a > bus grant in that AB slot > and moving everything down. Actually, even if the first 4 slots were ABCD, all five boards would be positioned correctly since the last two boards are both quad. A bus grant is needed only if a dual board is placed in a quad AB/AB slot leaving one of the ABs empty. That is when a bus grant is required. Since the dual M8029 board is in an ABCD slot, the other side does NOT require a bus grant. Jerome Fine From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 8 23:22:26 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 21:22:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Internet has turned 30 years old In-Reply-To: References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Tom Sparks wrote: > >> " >> 30 years ago, at flip of a switch, the internet as we know it WAS BORN >> How TCP/IP nearly fell at the first hurdle >> By Gavin Clarke ? Get more from this author >> Posted in Networks, 3rd January 2013 08:59?GMT >> > This would be a good time to remind folks of nntp.olduse.net. :) I'm trying to connect to it, but it requires a login and http://olduse.net/ doesn't seem to explain how to get a login. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 00:11:25 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:11:25 -0800 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50ED0A0D.9040202@gmail.com> On 1/8/2013 3:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Al Kossow > wrote: > > On 1/7/13 10:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > (*stillneed a Command/Language ROS board since it turns out my > 5120 had not one but two bad ROS boards > > > Apparently, failing ROS boards are quite common in the 51xx series. > It would be a good thing to get the contents of working ones archived. > > > That's been my experience thus far... > It looks like Christian Corti's worked out how to do this, but I don't > know if he's made the archives public: > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/ibm_5110/technik/en/index.html > The 5120 ROS is identical to the 5110 as far as I know. I don't know > how applicable the above is to the 5100, I assume it's a bit different > (and I don't have one to try it out on). > It'd be nice to know what chips correspond to what portions of the ROS > tests -- I have two bad Command/Language ROS boards from the two 5120s > I have and they fail diagnostics in different places. I'm sure I > could make one working board from the two if I knew which chips were > bad on each one. > It'd also be fun to find some software for this, but I haven't tracked > any down. > - Josh As a follow-up to my own mail, the emulator download contains the ROS images (including APL), as well as a disk image for the Customer Support Functions disk, which I've been looking for and which is incredibly useful as it's the only way to format new disks on the 5110/5120... So, a big thanks to Christian for taking care of this already, at least for the 5110/5120. - Josh From g-wright at att.net Wed Jan 9 00:29:44 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 22:29:44 -0800 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50ECE50D.40003@compsys.to> Message-ID: <6BE59CBB2BBD416B9F0CDCDB700CDCF2@TP60> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome H. Fine" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 7:33 PM Subject: Re: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. > >Jerry Wright wrote: > >>>>>At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >>>> >>>>The system has >>>> >>>>M8189 cpu >>>>M8067 memory 256k >>>>M8029 RX02 >>>>M8061 RL02 >>>>M8639 HD controller >>>> >>>>Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory default. >>>>I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance its a >>>>bad >>>>controller card. >>>> >>>>The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot from >>>>it. i get >>>>an >>>> >>>>error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the RX02 >>>>, I get >>>> >>>>'cant read directory ' >>>> >>>>Any words of wisdom out there >>>> >>>>Thanks, Jerry >>>> >>>What are the CSR's for the RX02 controllers? Any chance you have two set >>>the same? I assume you have a drive # >plug in the front of the RL02 >>>drive? >>> >>Not to sure how the RX02 card is set right now, would have to look >>tonight. I will try the system with out the RX02 card also. >> >> The Drive ID Plug is set to drive 0 >> >>>Also, do you have another RL02 drive to test as well? >>> >> >>Yes, thats on my list. Does the system consider the RL02 drive and M8029 >>controller card as one ??? Or does 'controller not found" mean >>much. >> > The M8029 and the M8061 are totally separate devices and do NOT interact > with each other. The standard CSR,VECTOR for each are totally different. > If both are working correctly, you can remove one or the other and still > operate. > > IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!! > > A BA23 has the top 3 slots ABCD. The other 5 slots are ABAB and must be > filled to provide bus continuity up to that point in the chain. An RQDX1 > MUST > be the last board in the chain since it does not provide bus continuity. > Unused > slots at the end of the bus grant chain are not a problem and can remain > empty. > > If you remove the M8029, move up the M8061 and the M8639 boards one slot > since you can't leave the 3rd slot empty. > > BUT, if you place the M8061 in the 3rd slot, on a BA23, the M8029 will > require > a bus grant card in the dual slot beside it in the 4th quad slot or the > M8639 below > it will not work. If the M8639 in an RQDX2 (an RQDX2 is an M8639-YB), > then you can place the M8639-YB in the 4th slot and the M8029 in the far > right of the 5th slot - otherwise you will require an M9047 in the far > right of the > 5th slot if the M8029 is in the far left of the 5th slot. > > The configuration you have right now with slot 2 and slot 3 half filled is > correct. > Each of the dual boards in slot 2 and slot 3 are on the extreme left which > is correct. > If the boards were not in the correct place, you could not boot with the > RX02. > >>>Since you have an RQDX1 or RQDX2, you may be using a BA23 box. >>>Otherwise, how have you connected your hard drive? And can you use >>>your hard drive on the M8639 controller? >>> >>>Even with a BA23, since the M8029 is in the third slot, there should not >>>be a problem with the M8061, especially if the M8639 is working. >>> >>Yes it is a BA23 box and the M8639 does boot the RX50 and Hard drive. >>It also boots from the RX02 >> > Since the RX02, RX50 and Hard drive all boot, I would suggest > that the RL02 hardware seems to have an isolated problem. After > you boot RT-11, perform: > > SHOW DEVICE > > command and see if the M8061 controller has been recognized. > Since you have strapped the M8061 as the factory setting, it > should be at the standard CSR and VECTOR. RT-11 will display: > > "Not installed" > > if the M8061 is not recognized (something is not working). If: > > "Installed" > > is displayed, then the M8061 is being recognized, although that > does not mean the M8061 is working correctly. Which you > obviously realize, but are asking for help in determining what > exactly is the problem: > > (a) M8061 controller > (b) RL02 drive > (c) Cables > (d) Rl02 pack > > While cables may be OK, it is possible to connect them backwards. > If I remember correctly, when that happens, the RL02 RED fault > light is on - unless it is burned out. Of course, one of the cables > could have a broken wire. At this point, it seems like you have the > RL02 isolated as the problem, but you will need help from a hardware > individual to figure out the best way to solve the problem. BUT, be > very careful since a bad pack can damage a drive which then damages > other packs. > > Jerome Fine Below is a brief print out of the messages . I will have to go back to the hardware trouble shooting. I did not feel up to packing a RL02 around tonight. It always nice to have some one look over your shoulder and confirm that what you are doing looks right. Thank you, all - Jerry >>>>>>>>>> print out <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Type ? for HELP Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]:bo dl0 TRYING UNIT DL0 ERR 12 NON-EXISTENT CONTROLLER Type ? for HELP Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]:bo du1 TRYING UNIT DU1 BOOTING FROM DU1 RT-11XM V05.01B .TYPE V5USER.TXT RT-11 V5.1 Snip......................... . .SHOW DEVICE Device Status CSR Vector(s) ------ ------ --- --------- DU Resident 172150 154 DZ Not installed 174200 310 DW Not installed 174000 300 304 NL Installed 000000 000 PI -Not installed 000000 000 DD Installed 176500 300 304 DL Installed 174400 160 DM Not installed 177440 210 DX Not installed 177170 264 DY Installed 177170 264 LD Installed 000000 000 LP Not installed 177514 200 LS Installed 173400 220 224 MM Not installed 172440 224 MS Not installed 172522 224 300 MT Not installed 172520 224 RK Not installed 177400 220 SL Installed 000000 000 VM Not installed 177572 000 XL Installed 176500 300 304 SP Installed 000000 110 XC Not installed 173300 210 214 .DIR DL0: ?DIR-F-Error reading directory From ball.of.john at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 01:19:07 2013 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 23:19:07 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: According to this website (http://nemesis.lonestar.org/computers/tandy/hardware/storage/mfm.html) I finally managed to get hold of a Type 4 hard disk controller for the TRS-80 Model II/16/6000 family of computers (which looks like this: http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/CRW_7791 .jpg) Sourcing the external drive enclosures for Tandy systems is near impossible unless you have a lot of spare money handy so I instead did some research and mounted a Seagate ST-225 INSIDE the computer on a custom made mounting bracket over the PSU. (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/100_276 9.jpg) The drive is a known good drive and formats and boots under MS-DOS. In order to run it under Xenix 1.03 I need to format it again using DISKUTIL. The controller can see the drive and seems to know it's ready but the problem is that the utility instantly fails the entire disk the moment you start the format. (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/CRW_779 0.jpg) Tried with other ST-412 interface drives (full height, half height and 3.5") and they all do the exact same thing. Lonestar.org states that the '225 SHOULD be compatible with my controller. I looked up any documentation I could find and I see nothing about any sort of configuration the controller that needs to be set to support the drive. It should just plug in and work. The only thing I seem to find odd is the BUSY light on the drive is stuck on when the controller is attached which seems suspicious. Anyone here got a slue how I should be tacking this problem? From bigral at hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 15:50:43 2013 From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 00:50:43 +0300 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ (was: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space) In-Reply-To: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> References: , <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > Split I/D space support. Hello, I wonder if RSX-11M+ can be used on processor without Split I/D space support? Is there any feature that will became unavailable in this mode? > But it do require much more of the hardware. > It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, > that 11M do not. > 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast > about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? thank you, Andrey From stacymcarr at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 17:13:13 2013 From: stacymcarr at gmail.com (Stacy Carr) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 18:13:13 -0500 Subject: Motorola 6800 evaluation kit Message-ID: I am looking for a Motorola 6800 evaluation kit with books. I sold one that I built in 1976 which I sold in 1992. I would like to find one that is for sale, hopefully the same one, if not one in good shape. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 8 23:12:04 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 21:12:04 -0800 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> References: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50ECFC24.2070300@jwsss.com> On 1/8/2013 6:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> It is more probably that the IBM that is claimed to possibly claimed >>> to be projected onto the face of one of the astronauts when he is >>> trying to raise HAL from the pod is actually more of an early version >>> of something like the tricks that the Disney people used to jazz up >>> some frames of Jessica Rabbit than a vailed reference to IBM for some >>> plot effect. >> ITYM Betty Boop. When she says "I still got it, Eddie!", OrSoI'veHeard(TM). > No, he's talking about this: > > http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/jessica.asp > Yep, in that day's production environment you couldn't undo such things once shot. Only thing maybe doable would have been the IBM button on the space suit, which I found interesting. Not sure what that button would be expected to do when pressed. I prefer the "don't panic" Doug Adams button myself. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 8 23:22:26 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 21:22:26 -0800 Subject: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <948104036-1357700528-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1138391327-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50E7C1F3.3010003@brouhaha.com> <948104036-1357700528-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1138391327-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <50ECFE92.7060808@jwsss.com> On 1/8/2013 7:02 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > I was watching that was showing off a new cd based encyclopedia. I managed to snag a copy of the Britannica version on CD's. It lives on the shelf next to the National Geo set, just like books, but now in CD form. Will take it to the friends of the library sale when I croak and not be able to get $0.10 each for them, and they'll go to the landfill. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jan 9 03:34:49 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 10:34:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Al Kossow wrote: > Apparently, failing ROS boards are quite common in the 51xx series. > It would be a good thing to get the contents of working ones archived. I wonder why. Of the five machines I have, none has any failed parts. And the contents of the 5110 model 1 has already been saved and is part of my emulator called emu5110. As usual, it's on the FTP server ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart/pub/cm/ibm5110/ Christian From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 06:42:47 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 07:42:47 -0500 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ (was: What PDP11 OS in 20MB Disk Space) In-Reply-To: References: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2013, at 16:50, Andriy Romanenko wrote: > >> Split I/D space support. > > Hello, I wonder if RSX-11M+ can be used on processor without Split I/D space support? Is there any feature that will became unavailable in this mode? It'll run on an 11/23 with enough RAM, so yes. I don't know particular features you lose other than the program size advantage of split I/D, but others probably do. >> But it do require much more of the hardware. >> It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, >> that 11M do not. >> 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast >> about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) > > What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? CPU-wise, I don't know, but you need a minimum of 512KB (256KW) of RAM. Like I mentioned, it runs on an 11/23, which has the EIS and 22-bit addressing. Obviously, you also need an MMU. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 9 07:48:02 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 05:48:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Internet has turned 30 years old In-Reply-To: References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > >> On Tue, 8 Jan 2013, Tom Sparks wrote: >> >>> " >>> 30 years ago, at flip of a switch, the internet as we know it WAS BORN >>> How TCP/IP nearly fell at the first hurdle >>> By Gavin Clarke ? Get more from this author >>> Posted in Networks, 3rd January 2013 08:59?GMT >>> >> This would be a good time to remind folks of nntp.olduse.net. :) > > I'm trying to connect to it, but it requires a login and http://olduse.net/ > doesn't seem to explain how to get a login. > It certainly doesn't require a login. Point your favorite newsreader to nntp.olduse.net and go. I use rtin with it, although the dates are screwed up because Tin can't grok the timestamp portion of the header. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 10:47:30 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 17:47:30 +0100 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <6BE59CBB2BBD416B9F0CDCDB700CDCF2@TP60> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50ECE50D.40003@compsys.to> <6BE59CBB2BBD416B9F0CDCDB700CDCF2@TP60> Message-ID: > .SHOW DEVICE > > Device Status CSR Vector(s) > ------ ------ --- --------- > DU Resident 172150 154 > DZ Not installed 174200 310 > DW Not installed 174000 300 304 > NL Installed 000000 000 > PI -Not installed 000000 000 > DD Installed 176500 300 304 > DL Installed 174400 160 > DM Not installed 177440 210 > DX Not installed 177170 264 > DY Installed 177170 264 > LD Installed 000000 000 > LP Not installed 177514 200 > LS Installed 173400 220 224 > MM Not installed 172440 224 > MS Not installed 172522 224 300 > MT Not installed 172520 224 > RK Not installed 177400 220 > SL Installed 000000 000 > VM Not installed 177572 000 > XL Installed 176500 300 304 > SP Installed 000000 110 > XC Not installed 173300 210 214 > > > .DIR DL0: > ?DIR-F-Error reading directory DL installed - it seems that the controller side of the M8061 is OK. I had the "?DIR-F-Error reading directory" also (some time ago). It was solved by using another external connection cable! - Henk From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Jan 9 12:14:33 2013 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 13:14:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: any stash of MODEM info? Bitsavers not much.... Message-ID: <11820.171d7a12.3e1f0d89@aol.com> any stash of MODEM info? Bitsavers not much.... unless I am looking in wrong places. We have some we have accumulated set aside here waiting for the day of a fast scanner but want to thin the stack if it has already been done elsewhere. cc me offlist also... I do not always read my digest file. thanks Ed Sharpe _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 9 12:47:08 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:47:08 -0500 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ In-Reply-To: References: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <50EDBB2C.1070605@neurotica.com> On 01/09/2013 07:42 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> But it do require much more of the hardware. >>> It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, >>> that 11M do not. >>> 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast >>> about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) >> >> What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? > > CPU-wise, I don't know, but you need a minimum of 512KB > (256KW) of RAM. Like I mentioned, it runs on an 11/23, > which has the EIS and 22-bit addressing. Nope...256KB or 128KW would be the max for a PDP-11 with 18-bit addressing. RSX-11M can run with a good bit less than that. > Obviously, you also need an MMU. Also not true. You can generate an unmapped system, which will run without an MMU. (sorry!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 9 12:45:40 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 19:45:40 +0100 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 8 Jan 2013 05:40:09 -0200 "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: > But how much more processing power the newish PeeCee has? :) [... compared to a QBus PDP-11] Several orders of magnitude, for sure. But the fun factor of the PDP-11 is several orders of magnitude higher then that of the PeeCee. :-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 12:50:33 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 11:50:33 -0700 Subject: any stash of MODEM info? Bitsavers not much.... In-Reply-To: <11820.171d7a12.3e1f0d89@aol.com> References: <11820.171d7a12.3e1f0d89@aol.com> Message-ID: In article <11820.171d7a12.3e1f0d89 at aol.com>, COURYHOUSE at aol.com writes: > any stash of MODEM info? Are you talking operating/programming/user manuals for modem products? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 13:06:10 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:06:10 -0500 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ In-Reply-To: <50EDBB2C.1070605@neurotica.com> References: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> <50EDBB2C.1070605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0ECC2037-DA31-4645-99C9-F66DA2762506@gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/09/2013 07:42 AM, David Riley wrote: >>>> But it do require much more of the hardware. >>>> It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, >>>> that 11M do not. >>>> 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast >>>> about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) >>> >>> What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? >> >> CPU-wise, I don't know, but you need a minimum of 512KB >> (256KW) of RAM. Like I mentioned, it runs on an 11/23, >> which has the EIS and 22-bit addressing. > > Nope...256KB or 128KW would be the max for a PDP-11 with 18-bit > addressing. RSX-11M can run with a good bit less than that. > >> Obviously, you also need an MMU. > > Also not true. You can generate an unmapped system, which will run > without an MMU. (sorry!) For both: I was talking about 11M+! I ran 11M on a 256KB system for quite a while until I acquired my 4MB memory board, so I'm aware. :-) - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 13:07:31 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 12:07:31 -0700 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > But the fun factor of the PDP-11 is several orders of magnitude higher > then that of the PeeCee. :-) PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 13:55:23 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 20:55:23 +0100 Subject: FS: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?2=D7_DEC_PWS_500au?= In-Reply-To: <5082004A.9060002@xs4all.nl> References: <5082004A.9060002@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCB2B.4060109@xs4all.nl> On 20-okt-2012 3:37, MG wrote: > Two Digital (Equipment Corp.) Personal WorkStation 500au systems > > [...] Both systems have been sold. (To update this thread, in case anyone was still interested.) - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 13:56:41 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 20:56:41 +0100 Subject: FS: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?2=D7_HP_rx2620_=22Montecito=22?= In-Reply-To: <50820089.8080806@xs4all.nl> References: <50820089.8080806@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCB79.2090901@xs4all.nl> On 20-okt-2012 3:38, MG wrote: > Two Hewlett-Packard Integrity rx2620 systems > > [...] One will be sold this week, so one is still left. I'm not in a hurry to sell it; but if anyone's interested, then please let me know. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 13:57:55 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 20:57:55 +0100 Subject: FS: HP AlphaServer DS15 In-Reply-To: <50A4C4FE.7040400@xs4all.nl> References: <50A4C4FE.7040400@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCBC3.3040202@xs4all.nl> On 15-nov-2012 11:33, MG wrote: > [A] barely used, mint-condition, HP AlphaServer DS15 > > [...] This system is still available, although someone has shown interest for it (but is very slow in terms of communication). - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 13:59:04 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 20:59:04 +0100 Subject: FS: 1 Gbyte DS10/DS10L/XP900 memory kits In-Reply-To: <508A9F04.3000600@xs4all.nl> References: <5082006F.9070805@xs4all.nl> <5089CF56.8040703@xs4all.nl> <508A9F04.3000600@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCC08.3010605@xs4all.nl> On 26-okt-2012 16:32, MG wrote: > In addition to the last remaining DS10 I thus have several 1 Gbyte > kits available, at least two for the time being. > > [...] These kits are still available. Please contact me for availability, I have several. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 14:00:26 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:00:26 +0100 Subject: WTT/WTB: SGI =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Indigo=B2_IMPACT_=284_Mbyt?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?e=29_TRAM_board?= In-Reply-To: <507EDE1A.7030407@xs4all.nl> References: <507EDE1A.7030407@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCC5A.90406@xs4all.nl> On 17-okt-2012 18:34, MG wrote: > Does anyone have one of these TRAM (Texture Memory, 4 Mbytes > ideally, P/N: 030-0676-003) boards, for an SGI Indigo? IMPACT > (e.g. for HighIMPACT) graphics card to trade/sell? A few months ago I found one, so I'm no longer looking for one. I do have a defective one to get rid of. If anyone's interested to test it, see if it still has any life in it, let me know. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 14:00:57 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:00:57 +0100 Subject: WTT/WTB: SGI DMediaPro DM2/DM3 LVDS cables In-Reply-To: <507EDD10.5070100@xs4all.nl> References: <507EDD10.5070100@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCC79.8090707@xs4all.nl> On 17-okt-2012 18:30, MG wrote: > Does anyone have a complete set of SGI DMediaPro DM2/DM3 LVDS > cables, willing to trade/sell? (See my other WTT/WTB thread, > for the IP59 board, for possible items of interest to trade.) > > [...] Found what I'm looking for (a few months ago). - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 14:01:36 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:01:36 +0100 Subject: WTT/WTB: SGI IP59 quad-processor CPU board In-Reply-To: <507EDC2B.8000602@xs4all.nl> References: <507EDC2B.8000602@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCCA0.1050109@xs4all.nl> On 17-okt-2012 18:26, MG wrote: > Does anyone have this, willing to sell or --- more ideally, > for me --- willing to trade a SGI IP59 quad-processor CPU/node- > board? (P/N: 030-1989-003) > > [...] Has anything shown up in the meantime? I'm still potentially interested in this. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 14:02:18 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:02:18 +0100 Subject: ValueWord & ValueNotes In-Reply-To: <5074CB72.2070202@xs4all.nl> References: <5074C4D3.6040402@xs4all.nl> <5074CB72.2070202@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCCCA.4090401@xs4all.nl> Does anyone have more information about this software? - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 9 14:03:12 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:03:12 +0100 Subject: SCSI over UTP, i.e. extender In-Reply-To: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> References: <50D0EC31.7040803@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50EDCD00.9060205@xs4all.nl> On 18-dec-2012 23:20, MG wrote: > Purely out of curiosity, is anyone aware of the possible existence > of LVD/SE SCSI (e.g. HD68) over UTP (RJ45) extenders? I'm aware > that one normally goes for FC, or a SCSI<=>FC bridge, but those > tend to be rather pricey. Not looking for this anymore, I got my hands on a SCSI<=>FC bridge recently. I only need to find a SC-LC cable now. (Most of my fiber-optical equipment uses LC cabling.) - MG From earl at baugh.org Wed Jan 9 14:16:00 2013 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:16:00 -0500 Subject: Sun 2/120 Front panel Message-ID: Howdy, I'm looking for a source for a front bezel / plate / panel for a Sun 2/120. Anyone happen to know where I might be able to obtain one? (I'd also be interested in the correct Mouse / Keyboard that goes with the Sun 2 series) I'm slowly working on restoring it, and the panel is the major missing piece. (I just recently found a replacement power supply, so I hope to be able to get it to boot shortly...) Thanks. Earl From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 9 06:56:00 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 12:56:00 +0000 (WET) Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support Message-ID: <01OOSC640R1U0060AY@beyondthepale.ie> > > The only thing I seem to find odd is the BUSY light on the drive is stuck on > when the controller is attached which seems suspicious. > Anyone here got a slue how I should be tacking this problem? > When this happens with a floppy drive, it is often due to the data cable having being put on upside down, causing all the active signals to be grounded and resulting in the drive being selected all the time. Perhaps a similar cabling issue could cause this with an ST-225? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jan 9 07:03:53 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:03:53 +0000 (WET) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 113, Issue 9 Message-ID: <01OOSCDL2J4I0060AY@beyondthepale.ie> Dave wrote: >On 08/01/2013 17:58, Richard wrote: > > In article , > > Michael Thompson writes: > > > >> The RICM has lots of them: > >> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ibm-series1 > > The University of Delaware Electrical Engineering department had > > several of these in their machine room circa 1982. I can't remember > > what they were used for; I think it was for research being done by a > > particular professor because I don't recall ever hearing of them being > > used for student work. Instead we were using the PDP-11/70, and I > > think later a VAX, for C and FORTRAN related homework. > In the UK we used them to provide X.25 connections to VM/CMS but I have > forgotten everything I ever knew about them... > I think I also remember them being used to enable ASCII terminals to emulate 3270 terminals for an IBM mainframe, before IBM 7171 protocol converters came into use, unless that was a completely different machine also called series1... Regards, Peter Coghlan. From tingox at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 08:08:12 2013 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:08:12 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 8:19 AM, John Ball wrote: > The only thing I seem to find odd is the BUSY light on the drive is stuck on > when the controller is attached which seems suspicious. > Anyone here got a slue how I should be tacking this problem? > A constant BUSY light on _can_ indicate that one of the cables is reversed (sorry, I don't remember which one) HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From ac7kh at arrl.net Wed Jan 9 11:47:11 2013 From: ac7kh at arrl.net (Robert Renfro) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 09:47:11 -0800 Subject: Wait! There's more including MS-DOS 1.25!!!! was Sanyo MBC-550 (Yuck!) software available In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990202182730.43dfa97a@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19990202182730.43dfa97a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <50EDAD1F.4060806@arrl.net> Joe By any chance do you still have the sanyo mbc-550 software disks and if so are you willing to part with them or copies ?? Thanks Semper Paratus -- Robert "Ross" Renfro, Aux Telecommunications Operator (TCO) SO-HR Division 3, District 11NR FSO-CM Flotilla 3-9, Redding, CA Station Keeper, US Coast Guard Auxiliary Communications Station, Los Molinos,CA Chico, CA Det, Flotilla 3-9 Redding, CA USN/USMC/USCG MARS Station, Los Molinos, CA AC7KH/ON9CKH/NNN0KDBT Amateur Extra Class GROL/MRS/GMRS USN/USMC/USCG MARS From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Jan 9 12:58:32 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 10:58:32 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EDBDD8.60109@jwsss.com> On 1/8/2013 11:19 PM, John Ball wrote: > The drive is a known good drive and formats and boots under MS-DOS. In order > to run it under Xenix 1.03 I need to format it again using DISKUTIL. The > controller can see the drive and seems to know it's ready but the problem is > that the utility instantly fails the entire disk the moment you start the > format. > (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/CRW_779 > 0.jpg) I only have a guess, and recent postings also discuss it. I wonder if your lowlevel program is attempting to read an error map from the drive and failing? There were error maps recorded on many drives but controllers and programs seldom bothered to try to read them back and just blasted the entire track when doing a low level format. I would try to find a drive which hasn't been formatted and tested on a system which might have done this, and see where you get to. I know the problem existed with SMD drives. The manufacturers would record flaw maps on the drives and some controllers would read and use them. Most gracefully continued if the flaw map was not there, but some did not. We made a controller which overwrote the flaw maps, and used a novel soft sector format on the SMD drives to record, so we didn't actually need the flaw maps. We looked at a similar controller for the smaller drives, and it would have worked, but we never proceeded with the product. I don't know if that is your problem or how to verify that. I suspect the drive is left selected because the controller state machine hung up for some reason, and didn't transition back to an idle state. Another path to verify is whether you have the drive write protected or enabled, and whether the drive status as to whether it is write protected is properly brought back to the controller. thanks Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 9 14:28:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 15:28:40 -0500 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ In-Reply-To: <0ECC2037-DA31-4645-99C9-F66DA2762506@gmail.com> References: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> <50EDBB2C.1070605@neurotica.com> <0ECC2037-DA31-4645-99C9-F66DA2762506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EDD2F8.9000209@neurotica.com> On 01/09/2013 02:06 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>>> But it do require much more of the hardware. >>>>> It takes way more memory, and it requires certain features in the CPU, >>>>> that 11M do not. >>>>> 11M can be run on basically any PDP-11, as long as you have atleast >>>>> about 56K of memory (Better with more, of course.) >>>> >>>> What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? >>> >>> CPU-wise, I don't know, but you need a minimum of 512KB >>> (256KW) of RAM. Like I mentioned, it runs on an 11/23, >>> which has the EIS and 22-bit addressing. >> >> Nope...256KB or 128KW would be the max for a PDP-11 with 18-bit >> addressing. RSX-11M can run with a good bit less than that. >> >>> Obviously, you also need an MMU. >> >> Also not true. You can generate an unmapped system, which will run >> without an MMU. (sorry!) > > For both: I was talking about 11M+! I ran 11M on a 256KB system > for quite a while until I acquired my 4MB memory board, so I'm > aware. :-) Duh, of course. :) My mistake. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Jan 9 14:49:58 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 20:49:58 +0000 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 9 January 2013 19:07, Richard wrote: > PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. My four year old daughter (at the time): "I want to make more BLOOD!" -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 9 15:44:16 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 13:44:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wait! There's more including MS-DOS 1.25!!!! was Sanyo MBC-550 (Yuck!) software available In-Reply-To: <50EDAD1F.4060806@arrl.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19990202182730.43dfa97a@intellistar.net> <50EDAD1F.4060806@arrl.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, Robert Renfro wrote: > Joe > > By any chance do you still have the sanyo mbc-550 software disks and if so > are you willing to part with them or copies ?? > Robert, will boot disks for an MBC-555 work? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 15:57:54 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 16:57:54 -0500 Subject: Difference between RSX-11M and M+ In-Reply-To: <50EDD2F8.9000209@neurotica.com> References: <50E3298F.8040502@update.uu.se> <50EDBB2C.1070605@neurotica.com> <0ECC2037-DA31-4645-99C9-F66DA2762506@gmail.com> <50EDD2F8.9000209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3DA01593-2BCB-4B86-8209-1632FE39A1D6@gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2013, at 3:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/09/2013 02:06 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>>> What is the practical minimum for the machine to be able to use RSX-11M and RSX-11M+? >>>> >>>> CPU-wise, I don't know, but you need a minimum of 512KB >>>> (256KW) of RAM. Like I mentioned, it runs on an 11/23, >>>> which has the EIS and 22-bit addressing. >>> >>> Nope...256KB or 128KW would be the max for a PDP-11 with 18-bit >>> addressing. RSX-11M can run with a good bit less than that. >>> >>>> Obviously, you also need an MMU. >>> >>> Also not true. You can generate an unmapped system, which will run >>> without an MMU. (sorry!) >> >> For both: I was talking about 11M+! I ran 11M on a 256KB system >> for quite a while until I acquired my 4MB memory board, so I'm >> aware. :-) > > Duh, of course. :) My mistake. Not really. I misread the question and assumed the OP was asking only about 11M+, so I failed to specify. Oops! - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 16:01:15 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 17:01:15 -0500 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, > Jochen Kunz writes: > >> But the fun factor of the PDP-11 is several orders of magnitude higher >> then that of the PeeCee. :-) > > PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. I dunno. DOOM is open source now (not the art, but the engine is). It probably could, with an extensive porting effort (and probably a custom operating system to handle the memory overlays required). You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char resolution. Or, you know, you could just make a simple DOOM MUD. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 9 16:04:13 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:04:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: any stash of MODEM info? Bitsavers not much.... In-Reply-To: References: <11820.171d7a12.3e1f0d89@aol.com> Message-ID: <20130109140321.T17525@shell.lmi.net> > > any stash of MODEM info? On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, Richard wrote: > Are you talking operating/programming/user manuals for modem products? or details on a product (software) named MODEM? From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jan 9 16:16:52 2013 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 17:16:52 -0500 Subject: Recovering DC42 images? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EDEC54.3090507@arachelian.com> This should work nicely: http://www.frederikseiffert.de/filetype/ On 01/08/2013 12:16 PM, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > DiskCopy 4.2 won't recognize images if the file type and creator code > aren't set, so you need to use ResEdit or another tool to set them > correctly. The type should be 'dImg' and the creator should be 'dCpy'. > > --Dave > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ian King wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> This is one I've been working on for a bit without success, and I'm hoping >> the community has some ideas to offer. >> >> I'm attempting to recover the Lisa Xenix images on BitSavers so I can boot >> up a Lisa for an exhibit. I've managed to get the images onto a Mac IIci >> over the network (rather than through the dance of PC to Mac file >> formats), but DiskCopy 4.2 doesn't recognize them. I used the boot.dc42 >> image on LisaEm and got it to boot as far as it will (Ray acknowledges in >> the documents that Xenix doesn't work on LisaEm yet), but of course the >> emulation is likely written to the image: still, it suggests the images >> are likely OK. >> >> I found information that suggested it was necessary to use an older Mac to >> generate the correct disk format: I've formatted my 400K disks on a Mac >> Plus under System 6.0.3, and run DC on that Mac, too. Still no joy. >> >> Any suggestions? Thanks -- Ian >> >> From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 9 16:59:12 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:59:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, John Many Jars wrote: > On 9 January 2013 19:07, Richard wrote: > >> PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. > > My four year old daughter (at the time): > > "I want to make more BLOOD!" > One of the most efficient killing machines I've ever seen in Quake was the daughter of our tech support lead (way back in my sysadmin days). The nerd rage that would flow on the net when someone discovered they'd been repeatedly and brutally hammered by an 11 year old wisp of a girl wearing pony tails and a frilly pink dress was *epic* I nearly fell out of my chair in a fit of laughter the time I heard her mutter, "Quit running! You'll only die tired!" g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 17:26:06 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 16:26:06 -0700 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > On Jan 9, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Richard wrote: > > > PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. > > You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char > resolution. The essence of DOOM is its real-timeness. If you can't render at interactive rates, it's not DOOM, sorry. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 17:57:13 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 21:57:13 -0200 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> >> > PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. >> You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char >> resolution. > The essence of DOOM is its real-timeness. If you can't render at > interactive rates, it's not DOOM, sorry. (ducking and yelling from the trench) I see the rise of a holy war!!! :oO From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 9 18:05:10 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 17:05:10 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> On 2013-01-09 15:01, David Riley wrote: > I dunno. DOOM is open source now (not the art, but the engine is). > It probably could, with an extensive porting effort (and probably a > custom operating system to handle the memory overlays required). > You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char > resolution. What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 18:17:46 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 17:17:46 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: In article <50EE05B6.4090906 at e-bbes.com>, emanuel stiebler writes: > On 2013-01-09 15:01, David Riley wrote: > > > I dunno. DOOM is open source now (not the art, but the engine is). > > It probably could, with an extensive porting effort (and probably a > > custom operating system to handle the memory overlays required). > > You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char > > resolution. > > What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? DOOM is all software and needs only a dumb memory-mapped framebuffer. It was developed for an MS-DOS environment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 9 18:21:38 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 17:21:38 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50EE0992.4000605@e-bbes.com> On 2013-01-09 17:05, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2013-01-09 15:01, David Riley wrote: > >> I dunno. DOOM is open source now (not the art, but the engine is). >> It probably could, with an extensive porting effort (and probably a >> custom operating system to handle the memory overlays required). >> You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char >> resolution. > > What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? Sorry: CPU or graphics :( From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 18:24:52 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 19:24:52 -0500 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > DOOM is all software and needs only a dumb memory-mapped framebuffer. > > It was developed for an MS-DOS environment. I seem to remember a 386-40 was just about the minimum processor to use before the frame rate went in the toilet. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 18:28:53 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:28:53 -0200 Subject: DOOM References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <13DD05423D1E48479B5859587B00836E@tababook> > What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? Blood. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 18:47:23 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 16:47:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping In-Reply-To: References: <1357603924.83713.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130107170842.C74890@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1357778843.57991.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> e-mail me your address. I'll calculate postage and you can Gaypal me. ________________________________ From: Martin Goldberg To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping I'm interested in one but didn't see the rest of the post. How do I go about getting it? From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 9 18:47:29 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 00:47:29 +0000 Subject: Recovering DC42 images? In-Reply-To: <50EDEC54.3090507@arachelian.com> Message-ID: Thanks, folks! I now have DC recognizing the images and creating floppies from them. Proof of the pudding will be trying to boot the Lisa from the Xenix boot floppy tomorrow morning. :-) On 1/9/13 2:16 PM, "Ray Arachelian" wrote: >This should work nicely: http://www.frederikseiffert.de/filetype/ > >On 01/08/2013 12:16 PM, David Ryskalczyk wrote: >> DiskCopy 4.2 won't recognize images if the file type and creator code >> aren't set, so you need to use ResEdit or another tool to set them >> correctly. The type should be 'dImg' and the creator should be 'dCpy'. >> >> --Dave >> >> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Ian King wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> This is one I've been working on for a bit without success, and I'm >>>hoping >>> the community has some ideas to offer. >>> >>> I'm attempting to recover the Lisa Xenix images on BitSavers so I can >>>boot >>> up a Lisa for an exhibit. I've managed to get the images onto a Mac >>>IIci >>> over the network (rather than through the dance of PC to Mac file >>> formats), but DiskCopy 4.2 doesn't recognize them. I used the >>>boot.dc42 >>> image on LisaEm and got it to boot as far as it will (Ray acknowledges >>>in >>> the documents that Xenix doesn't work on LisaEm yet), but of course the >>> emulation is likely written to the image: still, it suggests the images >>> are likely OK. >>> >>> I found information that suggested it was necessary to use an older >>>Mac to >>> generate the correct disk format: I've formatted my 400K disks on a Mac >>> Plus under System 6.0.3, and run DC on that Mac, too. Still no joy. >>> >>> Any suggestions? Thanks -- Ian >>> >>> > > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Jan 9 19:02:08 2013 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 17:02:08 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some of the controllers also provided power on the control? Cable to power on secondary enclosures. On 1/9/13 6:08 AM, "Torfinn Ingolfsen" wrote: > On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 8:19 AM, John Ball wrote: >> The only thing I seem to find odd is the BUSY light on the drive is stuck on >> when the controller is attached which seems suspicious. >> Anyone here got a slue how I should be tacking this problem? >> > > A constant BUSY light on _can_ indicate that one of the cables is > reversed (sorry, I don't remember which one) > HTH From ball.of.john at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 19:29:38 2013 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 17:29:38 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >When this happens with a floppy drive, it is often due to the data cable having >being put on upside down, causing all the active signals to be grounded and >resulting in the drive being selected all the time. Perhaps a similar cabling >issue could cause this with an ST-225? I had the same idea until I switched the drive ID from 0 to 1. The BUSY light is now off and remains off on the drive until I tell DISKUTIL that the drive I want to work with is on channel 1 and not channel 0, at which point it probes for the drive (if it finds nothing it says the drive is not ready and asks to specify another drive), the BUSY light comes on and we get the same issue as before where it knows there's a drive but it can't format and says the disk is bad. The light WILL go out if the system reset is toggled which is probably because the controller is reset in the process. The cabling is keyed on the edge connector side and pin 1 is noted on both the ribbon cable and the header on the disk controller so there's no probable chance the wiring is wrong. I don't see why it could be trying to find an existing error map AFTER I specify what the factory had printed on it. It would make more sense to search for that BEFORE it prompted me to specify it. (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/Computer%20related/CRW_778 9.jpg) It could be ignoring it like you said but there's no way to try with a differently formatted disk at this time. Unsure if WRITE PROTECT is stuck. Seagate's own papers don't even mention a write protect jumper so I assume it simply does not exist for the drive. (ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/mfm/st225.txt) I also don't see WRITE PROTECT listed as a pin on the ST506/412 interface cabling. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 19:52:37 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 20:52:37 -0500 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> Message-ID: <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2013, at 18:57, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >>> > PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. >>> You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char >>> resolution. >> The essence of DOOM is its real-timeness. If you can't render at >> interactive rates, it's not DOOM, sorry. > > (ducking and yelling from the trench) I see the rise of a holy war!!! :oO Well, not really. Richard is correct. A non-interactive DOOM is a proof-of-concept toy at best (like when I got Quake running on a 486 at 1.5 FPS). - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 20:46:54 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 19:46:54 -0700 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6 at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > Well, not really. Richard is correct. A non-interactive DOOM > is a proof-of-concept toy at best (like when I got Quake > running on a 486 at 1.5 FPS). I have actually considered what it would take to get DOOM running in a retro environment. I haven't done the calculations, but I was thinking that if you did non-photorealistic rendering of the environment via hatch patterns that you *might* be able to accomplish something that had interactive rates using a display-list based graphics terminal. In my thought experiment, the only thing retro about this was the display; there would be a modern PC driving the data down the wire. I still doubt you could actually run the game engine on a PDP-11, however, due to the memory and performance constraints. The DOOM FAQ says that the minimum supported environment is a 386sx with 4MB of RAM and 4.8-12MB disk space. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 20:58:44 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 19:58:44 -0700 Subject: TerminalsWiki: University terminal rooms Message-ID: I imagine that UDel wasn't the only university to have a public terminal room. I created this page for UDel terminal history: If anyone else is interested in capturing the history of other terminal rooms at other sites (commercial, government, or educational), that would be a great addition to the wiki. Right now this is an article in my user space, but it could easily be moved to a more public space if others contribute similar articles. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jan 9 21:21:58 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:21:58 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11/23+ and a M8061 RL02 card. In-Reply-To: <6BE59CBB2BBD416B9F0CDCDB700CDCF2@TP60> References: <1357626372.50786.YahooMailRC@web181404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50EC3999.804@compsys.to> <1357680623.59586.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50ECE50D.40003@compsys.to> <6BE59CBB2BBD416B9F0CDCDB700CDCF2@TP60> Message-ID: <50EE33D6.5010506@compsys.to> >Jerry Wright wrote: >>>>>> At 10:26 PM -0800 1/7/13, Jerry Wright wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The system has >>>>> >>>>> M8189 cpu >>>>> M8067 memory 256k >>>>> M8029 RX02 >>>>> M8061 RL02 >>>>> M8639 HD controller >>>>> >>>>> Everything works except the M8061. Jumpers are set to Factory >>>>> default. >>>>> I did add the Q22 jumper just in case. There is always a chance >>>>> its a bad >>>>> controller card. >>>>> >>>>> The drive will come on line but that's about it. If I try to boot >>>>> from it. i get >>>>> an >>>>> >>>>> error, 'no controller' . If its running under RT11, booted off the >>>>> RX02 , I get >>>>> >>>>> 'cant read directory ' >>>>> >>>>> Any words of wisdom out there >>>> >> After you boot RT-11, perform: >> >> SHOW DEVICE >> >> command and see if the M8061 controller has been recognized. >> Since you have strapped the M8061 as the factory setting, it >> should be at the standard CSR and VECTOR. RT-11 will display: >> >> "Not installed" >> >> if the M8061 is not recognized (something is not working). If: >> >> "Installed" >> >> is displayed, then the M8061 is being recognized, although that >> does not mean the M8061 is working correctly. Which you >> obviously realize, but are asking for help in determining what >> exactly is the problem: >> >> (a) M8061 controller >> (b) RL02 drive >> (c) Cables >> (d) Rl02 pack >> >> While cables may be OK, it is possible to connect them backwards. >> If I remember correctly, when that happens, the RL02 RED fault >> light is on - unless it is burned out. Of course, one of the cables >> could have a broken wire. At this point, it seems like you have the >> RL02 isolated as the problem, but you will need help from a hardware >> individual to figure out the best way to solve the problem. BUT, be >> very careful since a bad pack can damage a drive which then damages >> other packs. > > Below is a brief print out of the messages . I will have to go back > to the hardware trouble shooting. I did not feel up to packing a > RL02 around tonight. > > It always nice to have some one look over your shoulder and confirm > that what you are doing looks right. > > Type ? for HELP > Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]:bo dl0 > TRYING UNIT DL0 > > ERR 12 NON-EXISTENT CONTROLLER > Type ? for HELP > Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]:bo du1 > TRYING UNIT DU1 > > BOOTING FROM DU1 > RT-11XM V05.01B > > .SHOW DEVICE > > Device Status CSR Vector(s) > ------ ------ --- --------- > DU Resident 172150 154 > NL Installed 000000 000 > DD Installed 176500 300 304 > DL Installed 174400 160 > DY Installed 177170 264 > LD Installed 000000 000 > LS Installed 173400 220 224 > SL Installed 000000 000 > VM Not installed 177572 000 > XL Installed 176500 300 304 > SP Installed 000000 110 > > > > .DIR DL0: > ?DIR-F-Error reading directory Another command which will check the RL02 system without the requirement for a valid directory to be present is: DUMP/TERM DL0: DUMP/TERM/IGNORE DL0: ^C typed TWICE (VERY QUICKLY) will terminate the dump. If no blocks are dumped from the first command, try the second. If you still get no blocks, then you need to determine which of (a) , (b), (c) or (d) is causing the problem - or something else which can also happen, although it would be unusual. For me, fixing any of the above four requires duplicate hardware which I use to replace the bad hardware. Tony Duell knows how to fix hardware and takes the opposite point of view. Indeed, Tony abhors what I suggest. I agree with Tony, but I do not have the hardware skills or the knowledge - and at 74 years old will not be looking to acquire it. Which is why I tend to stick now to running PDP-11 instructions under an Emulator on my PC and why I had a local PDP-11 hardware addict take all of my RL02 drives, racks and packs away. While I realize you are probably not that familiar with RT-11, the "SHOW DEVICE" list is the sort of information which is needed in the first place. While I would not be able to do anything with the above information, individuals who are able to fix hardware, such as Tony, at least know where to start. For myself, about the only thing I am able to do is to substitute items that are working from a hardware point of view. Since the M8061 might be working, at least based on the "SHOW DEVICE" information, then the next step which is the easiest would be to change the RL02 pack - subject to my warning, of course. If you don't have multiple hardware and you can't repair items, then I suggest that you evaluate if you are using the RL02 just to be able to have the satisfaction (hardware addicts are like that) of hearing, smelling and seeing the RL02 run. As a software addict, my focus is very different and does not depend on the hardware I am using, only the PDP-11 instructions which are being executed. My challenge and enjoyment is fixing bugs and making enhancements in the software. RT-11 still has many bugs, a few of which are serious. For reasons which I have not been able to fully understand, I find a great deal of satisfaction in finding and fixing those bugs PLUS adding enhancements. Just one example of an enhancement that I recently found could be included is code which informs an RT-11 user which Emulator of SimH, Ersatz-11 or V11 is being used - if any. I realize that this probably seems crazy to any hardware addicts, but I guess the challenge if why it is so much fun and so satisfying. Jerome Fine From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 9 21:28:03 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:28:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <201301100328.WAA18659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> But how much more processing power the newish PeeCee has? :) > [... compared to a QBus PDP-11] > Several orders of magnitude, for sure. Indeed. If sheer processing power is what you want, you're on the wrong mailing list. :-) > But the fun factor of the PDP-11 is several orders of magnitude > higher then that of the PeeCee. :-) Indeed. At least for this crowd. If your fun factor for machines is based on how much DOOM they can play, then probably not for you. Classiccmp is quite possibly the wrong hobby for you in that case. I'm not sure where I get the fun in playing with computers. I've thought about that and come to not even tentative conclusions. But I _am_ sure that merely being old and slow does not make a computer system unfun for me. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 9 21:33:07 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 19:33:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: nntp.olduse.net In-Reply-To: References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: >>> This would be a good time to remind folks of nntp.olduse.net. :) >> >> I'm trying to connect to it, but it requires a login and http://olduse.net/ >> doesn't seem to explain how to get a login. >> > It certainly doesn't require a login. Point your favorite newsreader to > nntp.olduse.net and go. > > I use rtin with it, although the dates are screwed up because Tin can't grok > the timestamp portion of the header. tin 1.9.6 release 20100522 ("Lochruan") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2010 Iain Lea. Connecting to nntp.olduse.net... Server expects authentication. Please enter username: _ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jan 9 21:42:58 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:42:58 -0500 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50EE38C2.2090203@compsys.to> >Jochen Kunz wrote: >>On Tue, 8 Jan 2013 05:40:09 -0200 Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>But how much more processing power the newish PeeCee has? :) >> >> >[... compared to a QBus PDP-11] >Several orders of magnitude, for sure. >But the fun factor of the PDP-11 is several orders of magnitude higher >then that of the PeeCee. :-) > Since I am a software addict, I find that BOTH are available. I recently tested RT-11 under Ersatz-11 using a 64 bit Windows 7. It ran VERY approximately 150 times as fast as a PDP-11/93 It is almost too fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I still have the fun, but now the speed and convenience of up to TWELVE emulated VT100 terminals on my desk as opposed to just SIX real VT100 terminals on my desk connected to a PDP-11/83. There is a possibility of a graphics option as well. I do not know what is included, but is sounds interesting. Jerome Fine From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jan 9 21:44:31 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:44:31 -0500 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/01/13 7:05 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2013-01-09 15:01, David Riley wrote: > >> I dunno. DOOM is open source now (not the art, but the engine is). >> It probably could, with an extensive porting effort (and probably a >> custom operating system to handle the memory overlays required). >> You might be able to render a few frames a minute at 80x24 char >> resolution. > > What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? > Texture mapping in software, so: CPU, since there is a bunch of stuff done per pixel, and there are quite a lot of pixels. Then you need a framebuffer to render the pixels. Unless you had an SGI, this stuff really didn't get exciting until RISC and PowerPC (Marathon, Halo 1...) and then hardware 3D, which soon enough made it to the PC world. --Toby From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Jan 9 22:10:54 2013 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 23:10:54 -0500 Subject: HP 3000 microcode Message-ID: Does anyone have a copy of the "HP 3000 Series III Microprogram Listing Manual" (part number 30000-90136)? Bitsavers has the Series II microcode manual (30000-90023), and while that is helpful, it's not authoritative for the Series III. Thanks. -- Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 22:47:18 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 23:47:18 -0500 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2013, at 10:44 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? >> > > Texture mapping in software, so: CPU, since there is a bunch of stuff done per pixel, and there are quite a lot of pixels. Then you need a framebuffer to render the pixels. Well. EVERYTHING in software. Texture mapping, sprites, polygon setup, geometry transforms, blitting (or, generally, page-swapping). There was no hardware assist whatsoever unless you count page-swapping (which you might, if you worked on machines like the Macintosh which didn't have it). > Unless you had an SGI, this stuff really didn't get exciting until RISC and PowerPC (Marathon, Halo 1...) and then hardware 3D, which soon enough made it to the PC world. Marathon was written for both 68K and PowerPC, and actually performed pretty OK on a 25 MHz 68040. Halo 1 was WAY into the 3D acceleration era; the original development was for fast G3s running Rage 128 at a minimum, then quickly moved to Xbox (PIII Celeron with third-gen NVIDIA graphics) once Microsoft bought Bungie. DOOM (which had an engine similar in complexity to Marathon) ran OK on a 386 and pretty damn well on a 486, neither of which was RISC in any sense. It was also never hardware accelerated until iD open-sourced it and the community modified it to be so, long after the engine had any real relevance. We are quickly moving away from what most people might consider "vintage", though parts of this discussion are well over 20 years old. To bring it back, maybe: I'm rather curious about DOS extenders. I know DOOM and Quake both used 32-bit extenders to gain access beyond the limitations of real mode, but I've never been quite clear on what those extenders actually DID. Surely there are five or ten people overflowing with information on this point here? - Dave From wilson at dbit.com Wed Jan 9 23:00:49 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 00:00:49 -0500 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> References: <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130110050049.GA10936@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 11:47:18PM -0500, David Riley wrote: >To bring it back, maybe: I'm >rather curious about DOS extenders. I know DOOM and >Quake both used 32-bit extenders to gain access beyond the >limitations of real mode, but I've never been quite clear >on what those extenders actually DID. A 386 DOS extender puts the CPU into protected mode and loads a 32-bit user program, while keeping DOS alive in a V86 box (286 DOS extenders would have to switch in and out of genuine real mode) where it's blissfully unaware that anything has changed. Then the DOS extender takes care of mode switching so that the user program can make DOS calls, and handle hardware interrupts, and map windows to memory-mapped hardware, and whatever else needs doing. It's horrifying but also kind of beautiful -- all the benefits of an OS that's too stupid to stop you from doing whatever you want, *and* tons of memory. John Wilson D Bit From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jan 9 23:14:39 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 00:14:39 -0500 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EE4E3F.20807@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/01/13 11:47 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Jan 9, 2013, at 10:44 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >>> What does DOOM need, CPU power of graphics? >>> >> >> Texture mapping in software, so: CPU, since there is a bunch of stuff done per pixel, and there are quite a lot of pixels. Then you need a framebuffer to render the pixels. > > Well. EVERYTHING in software. Texture mapping, sprites, > polygon setup, geometry transforms, blitting (or, generally, > page-swapping). ... > >> Unless you had an SGI, this stuff really didn't get exciting until RISC and PowerPC (Marathon, Halo 1...) and then hardware 3D, which soon enough made it to the PC world. > > Marathon was written for both 68K and PowerPC, and actually > performed pretty OK on a 25 MHz 68040. ... I had forgotten it ran on an '040. We played it to death. :) --Toby > ran OK on a 386 and pretty damn well on a 486, neither of > which was RISC in any sense. ... > > > - Dave > > > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 10 00:25:53 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 23:25:53 -0700 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > We are quickly moving away from what most people might > consider "vintage", though parts of this discussion are > well over 20 years old. To bring it back, maybe: I'm > rather curious about DOS extenders. I know DOOM and > Quake both used 32-bit extenders to gain access beyond the > limitations of real mode, but I've never been quite clear > on what those extenders actually DID. Surely there are > five or ten people overflowing with information on this > point here? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From reiche at ls-al.eu Thu Jan 10 00:33:36 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:33:36 +0100 Subject: nntp.olduse.net In-Reply-To: References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201301100633.r0A6XabG021858@ls-al.eu> David Griffith wrote: > > tin 1.9.6 release 20100522 ("Lochruan") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2010 Iain Lea. > > Connecting to nntp.olduse.net... > Server expects authentication. > Please enter username: _ Weird... bsdhome:reiche$ rm -rf .tin; NNTPSERVER=nntp.olduse.net tin -r tin 1.8.3 release 20070201 ("Scotasay") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2006 Iain Lea. Connecting to nntp.olduse.net... Leafnode NNTP Daemon, version 1.11.8 running at wren.kitenet.net (my fqdn: wren.kitenet.net) Reading keymap file... Reading groups from active file... Reading groups from newsrc file... Checking for new groups... Reading global attributes file... Reading attributes file... Reading newsgroups file... Reading newsrc file... tin 1.8.3 release 20070201 ("Scotasay") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2006 Iain Lea. Welcome to tin, a full screen threaded Netnews reader. It can read news locally (ie. /news) or remotely (-r option) from a NNTP (Network News Transport Protocol) server. -h lists the available command line options. re, reiche From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jan 10 02:29:41 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:29:41 +0100 Subject: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK) In-Reply-To: <201301100328.WAA18659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201301100328.WAA18659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130110092941.87d22da7bdf2b81139cb69e0@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:28:03 -0500 (EST) Mouse wrote: > I'm not sure where I get the fun in playing with computers. Well playing QBus card Tetris or hard disk Sokoban. Or playing text adventures with all those litle .c and .h files below /usr/src/... ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ball.of.john at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 03:56:34 2013 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 01:56:34 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Some of the controllers also provided power on the control? Cable to power >on secondary enclosures. Technical bulletins state that yes the cabling for a second drive is modified to accomidate for the system to power on the external drives by means of a relay. If you didn't get the memo and you attached a second drive you would be greeted by a resistor on the drive burning out. :) From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Thu Jan 10 04:07:52 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 02:07:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics Message-ID: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I've been wanting to create the old school 3D graphics feel that is seen in these books and games (see bellow) I am think of using wings3D[1] for the modelling what render can create this style? Andr? LaMothe's Black Art of 3D Game Programming Waite Group Press's "Virtual Reality Creations." ? Christopher Lampton's Flights of Fantasy Snes' Star fox Atari's S.T.U.N. Runner Sega's Star Wars Arcade Infogrames's Alone in the dark 1 Dynamix's Red Baron [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wings_3D --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2,? Raspberry Pi model B, Microbee?Premium Plus+, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From kelly at catcorner.org Thu Jan 10 06:10:50 2013 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly D. Leavitt) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:10:50 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support References: Message-ID: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15D74@meow.catcorner.org> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Ball > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:57 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support > > >Some of the controllers also provided power on the control? > Cable to power > >on secondary enclosures. > > Technical bulletins state that yes the cabling for a second drive is > modified to accomidate for the system to power on the > external drives by > means of a relay. If you didn't get the memo and you attached > a second drive > you would be greeted by a resistor on the drive burning out. :) > That is if you're using external drives in the radio shack enclosure with board types 2 and 3. The board in question here does not operate that way. ST-506/ST-412 standard interface. Any bad track info already on the drive is ignored. User has to enter it in diskutil. It is stored on the partition that is created. Try the drive in a PC and make sure it works first. Kelly From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Jan 10 06:12:09 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 01:12:09 +1300 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube Message-ID: For those who might be interested... Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color Computer. http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M Terry Stewart (Tez) From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 10 08:48:36 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 06:48:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: nntp.olduse.net In-Reply-To: References: <1357686685.1308.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, geneb wrote: > >>>> This would be a good time to remind folks of nntp.olduse.net. :) >>> >>> I'm trying to connect to it, but it requires a login and >>> http://olduse.net/ doesn't seem to explain how to get a login. >>> >> It certainly doesn't require a login. Point your favorite newsreader to >> nntp.olduse.net and go. >> >> I use rtin with it, although the dates are screwed up because Tin can't >> grok the timestamp portion of the header. > > tin 1.9.6 release 20100522 ("Lochruan") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2010 Iain > Lea. > > Connecting to nntp.olduse.net... > Server expects authentication. > Please enter username: _ > Hrm. I find that if I run rtin by itself, it connects with no issue. if I run it rtin -A, it will ask for a user name & pass but will take whatever input it's given and comes right up. I'm also using a build from 2006, version 1.8.2. I wasn't aware there was newer, so I should upgrade. Thanks. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 09:04:26 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:04:26 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support In-Reply-To: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15D74@meow.catcorner.org> References: , <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15D74@meow.catcorner.org> Message-ID: Hi I'm using one of the TRS80's controller for my M20 Olivetti.It is also, exactly the same as the WD1000 except that annoyingwrite protect signaland data buffers. As was mentioned, the write protect is not part of theoriginal spec.I had to hard tie the wire to get the controller to work witha ST251.My Olivetti did expect bad track information on the first track and sector.The disk I had was used on a PC and had other information in thatlocation. I had to write some code to erase that bad track part beforeI could get the disk to initialize.I also had problems because of the stepping rate of the ST251 was slowerthan the original Olivetti. I had to find the code on the Olivetti floppy disk( not in the bios, it needed to boot from floppy first ) and change the timingto use the auto stepping.Dwight > Subject: RE: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support > Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:10:50 -0500 > From: kelly at catcorner.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Ball > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:57 AM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Fixed Disk Controller Support > > > > >Some of the controllers also provided power on the control? > > Cable to power > > >on secondary enclosures. > > > > Technical bulletins state that yes the cabling for a second drive is > > modified to accomidate for the system to power on the > > external drives by > > means of a relay. If you didn't get the memo and you attached > > a second drive > > you would be greeted by a resistor on the drive burning out. :) > > > That is if you're using external drives in the radio shack enclosure > with board types 2 and 3. The board in question here does not operate > that way. ST-506/ST-412 standard interface. Any bad track info already > on the drive is ignored. User has to enter it in diskutil. It is stored > on the partition that is created. > > Try the drive in a PC and make sure it works first. > > Kelly > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 10 09:17:29 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:17:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, Richard wrote: > > In article <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF at gmail.com>, > David Riley writes: > >> We are quickly moving away from what most people might >> consider "vintage", though parts of this discussion are >> well over 20 years old. To bring it back, maybe: I'm >> rather curious about DOS extenders. I know DOOM and >> Quake both used 32-bit extenders to gain access beyond the >> limitations of real mode, but I've never been quite clear >> on what those extenders actually DID. Surely there are >> five or ten people overflowing with information on this >> point here? > > > DOOM used DOS4GW as the extender and Watcom C as the compiler. Watcom C eventually went open source and is now available as Open Watcom - it's still a great compiler. (http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/Main_Page) It may still include the FORTRAN compiler, but I'm not sure. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jan 10 12:43:43 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:43:43 +0000 Subject: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: geneb Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 2:59 PM > On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, John Many Jars wrote: >> On 9 January 2013 19:07, Richard wrote: >>> PDP-11 can't DOOM. PC wins. >> My four year old daughter (at the time): >> "I want to make more BLOOD!" > One of the most efficient killing machines I've ever seen in Quake was the > daughter of our tech support lead (way back in my sysadmin days). The > nerd rage that would flow on the net when someone discovered they'd been > repeatedly and brutally hammered by an 11 year old wisp of a girl wearing > pony tails and a frilly pink dress was *epic* > I nearly fell out of my chair in a fit of laughter the time I heard her > mutter, "Quit running! You'll only die tired!" ROTFLMAO. That's going to keep me snickering for a long time. That line could come from one of the better SF stories I've read, say Walter Jon Williams or John Scalzi. Thank you. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Thu Jan 10 12:45:26 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:45:26 +0000 Subject: Lotus Improv Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BCB73B@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Anyone remember Lotus Improv? I understand that a version 3.0 was finished, though unreleased, and was a 32-bit application (unlike the final 2.1, which is 16-bit). Anyone know if Improv 3.0 survived? Thanks! -Ben From wilson at dbit.com Thu Jan 10 12:57:17 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:57:17 -0500 Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130110185717.GA20903@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 07:17:29AM -0800, geneb wrote: >Watcom C eventually went open source and is now available as Open >Watcom - it's still a great compiler. >(http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/Main_Page) >It may still include the FORTRAN compiler, but I'm not sure. Yes FORTRAN is still included. And both compilers still work on DOS and OS/2 as well as the usual suspects (and can cross-build in any combination). Really great package! John Wilson D Bit From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 10 13:06:44 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:06:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jan 2013, Rich Alderson wrote: >> One of the most efficient killing machines I've ever seen in Quake was the >> daughter of our tech support lead (way back in my sysadmin days). The >> nerd rage that would flow on the net when someone discovered they'd been >> repeatedly and brutally hammered by an 11 year old wisp of a girl wearing >> pony tails and a frilly pink dress was *epic* > >> I nearly fell out of my chair in a fit of laughter the time I heard her >> mutter, "Quit running! You'll only die tired!" > > ROTFLMAO. That's going to keep me snickering for a long time. That line > could come from one of the better SF stories I've read, say Walter Jon Williams > or John Scalzi. > I'm quite sure she heard it from either one of us or someplace else. It was still insanely funny though. We dubbed her "Elizideath". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 10 13:08:36 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:08:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Software textures - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <20130110185717.GA20903@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <50EE05B6.4090906@e-bbes.com> <50EE391F.8020907@telegraphics.com.au> <1E12BBAA-6308-4F73-8F05-298587C5AFDF@gmail.com> <20130110185717.GA20903@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jan 2013, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 07:17:29AM -0800, geneb wrote: >> Watcom C eventually went open source and is now available as Open >> Watcom - it's still a great compiler. >> (http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/Main_Page) >> It may still include the FORTRAN compiler, but I'm not sure. > > Yes FORTRAN is still included. And both compilers still work on DOS and > OS/2 as well as the usual suspects (and can cross-build in any combination). > Really great package! > Ah, ok. I do know that when the compiler was a commercial product, it was the go-to tool for speed critical applications. It had the best optimizer out there at the time. I suspect it's still competitive. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From chorny at bell.net Wed Jan 9 23:15:15 2013 From: chorny at bell.net (Ernie Chorny) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 00:15:15 -0500 Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping In-Reply-To: <1357778843.57991.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357778843.57991.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi - please advise shipping to Canada, postal code L5A 1E3. Thank you. Ernie Chorny From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 12:11:05 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:11:05 -0500 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe Message-ID: > From: Richard > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:01:44 -0700 > Subject: Re: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe > > In article , > Randy Dawson writes: > >> Any of these lying around? I ask every year or so... > > I have had ebay searches running for 10+ years and have never turned > up anything. I think these things are extremely scarce to > non-existent at this point. I don't recall hearing of any in the > hands of collectors anywhere, but of course, as soon as I say this, > someone will pop up and say "I have 3". :-) The RICM has one... https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/ardent-titan -- Michael Thompson From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 15:25:59 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:25:59 -0500 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C4D2A25-A275-4BBA-959D-8345AA540A1A@gmail.com> On Jan 10, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> From: Richard >> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:01:44 -0700 >> Subject: Re: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe >> >> In article , >> Randy Dawson writes: >> >>> Any of these lying around? I ask every year or so... >> >> I have had ebay searches running for 10+ years and have never turned >> up anything. I think these things are extremely scarce to >> non-existent at this point. I don't recall hearing of any in the >> hands of collectors anywhere, but of course, as soon as I say this, >> someone will pop up and say "I have 3". :-) > > The RICM has one... > > https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/ardent-titan I recognize that the terms are rather arbitrary, but what qualifies this as a supercomputer rather than just a large, graphics-specific mini? Or is it more to do with advertising copy? There were quite a few large minis with vector units, after all. I ask with trepidation, of course, because "supercomputer" is such a nebulous term to begin with, but this doesn't even seem like it would have reached the classification of "mainframe" in its time. Perhaps I'm misjudging it? - Dave From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 17:06:17 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:06:17 -0600 Subject: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: o wow theres a blast from the past i forgot all about good old days of quake. anyone here ever play red faction? From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 10 18:26:49 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 19:26:49 -0500 Subject: Major progress on S2I project Message-ID: <00e101cdef92$71d6ab10$55840130$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! The N8VEM SCSI to IDE/SD project has been renamed the S2I project. There has been large progress of late and things are really shaping up. I have distributed 3 of the 4 remaining prototype PCBs and have accumulated a short list of hardware changes for the next PCB revision. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/62549548/S2I%20Status Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 18:35:22 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:35:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping In-Reply-To: References: <1357778843.57991.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1357864522.4506.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 16$ US. Thanks for your interest. ________________________________ From: Ernie Chorny To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:15 AM Subject: Re: Commodore SX-64 new picture tubes for sale 25$ + shipping Hi - please? advise shipping to Canada, postal code L5A 1E3. Thank you. Ernie Chorny From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jan 10 19:32:04 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:32:04 -0500 Subject: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe In-Reply-To: <2C4D2A25-A275-4BBA-959D-8345AA540A1A@gmail.com> References: <2C4D2A25-A275-4BBA-959D-8345AA540A1A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EF6B94.3000604@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/01/13 4:25 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Jan 10, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > >>> From: Richard >>> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:01:44 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: looking for supercomputers, Ardent, Stardent, Titan or Portable Graphics Mainframe >>> >>> In article, >>> Randy Dawson writes: >>> >>>> Any of these lying around? I ask every year or so... >>> >>> I have had ebay searches running for 10+ years and have never turned >>> up anything. I think these things are extremely scarce to >>> non-existent at this point. I don't recall hearing of any in the >>> hands of collectors anywhere, but of course, as soon as I say this, >>> someone will pop up and say "I have 3". :-) >> >> The RICM has one... >> >> https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/ardent-titan > > I recognize that the terms are rather arbitrary, but what qualifies > this as a supercomputer rather than just a large, graphics-specific > mini? Or is it more to do with advertising copy? There were quite > a few large minis with vector units, after all. > > I ask with trepidation, of course, because "supercomputer" is such > a nebulous term to begin with, but this doesn't even seem like it > would have reached the classification of "mainframe" in its time. > Perhaps I'm misjudging it? It definitely wasn't a mainframe. I saw one circa 1989 at AUUG in Sydney, Australia (iirc). What I remember from its demo was impressive-for-the-time real time simulation (a waving flag? what would be a trivial javascript hack today) and graphics - very likely the most powerful machine at the show - and a pretty desirable tool for engineering/CAD/etc. This was around the same vintage as Apollo DN10000 and similar... when real time visualisation was a hot topic and the market was highly heterogeneous. The Titan could have been considered something like a "deskside supercomputer", a style of marketing that was revived by Steve Jobs for the Mac G5 (and G4?) I think, on the basis of Altivec performance mainly. (Thanks ckaiser for helping Altivec reach its potential - a decade later!) --Toby > > > - Dave > > > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 19:58:03 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:58:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: also have a non working SX-64, keyboard busted up, 40$ In-Reply-To: <1357864522.4506.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357778843.57991.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1357864522.4506.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1357869483.49071.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> the monitor lights up, but there's no rom message. Keyboard has issues. Contact me for pictures. From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 22:51:23 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 04:51:23 +0000 Subject: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <2050001494-1357879882-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-290888640-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> My friends and I really loved the red faction demo. *Everything* could be blown up. Was fun as hell and you could burrow your way into a wall and end up diving through the ceiling on to your opponents. Several of us ran out to buy it when it came out and found they made a bunch of objects immune to ammo in the release :-( totally different game than what we had set out to buy so we didn't make that mistake again with their releases. Otoh I still love the "summoner geeks" video. -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Stoness Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:06:17 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] o wow theres a blast from the past i forgot all about good old days of quake. anyone here ever play red faction? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 22:58:32 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:58:32 -0600 Subject: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)] In-Reply-To: <2050001494-1357879882-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-290888640-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011873E61A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <2050001494-1357879882-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-290888640-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: theres still some die hard people playing On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 10:51 PM, wrote: > My friends and I really loved the red faction demo. *Everything* could be blown up. Was fun as hell and you could burrow your way into a wall and end up diving through the ceiling on to your opponents. Several of us ran out to buy it when it came out and found they made a bunch of objects immune to ammo in the release :-( totally different game than what we had set out to buy so we didn't make that mistake again with their releases. > > Otoh I still love the "summoner geeks" video. > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Stoness > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:06:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Daemonic Quake players [was RE: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside > case (UK)] > > o wow theres a blast from the past i forgot all about good old days of quake. > > anyone here ever play red faction? > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 11 00:55:47 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:55:47 -0700 Subject: Update to PDP-8 Spacewar to resolve VC8/E issues In-Reply-To: <20130108144327.5b413735@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20130108144327.5b413735@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <50EFB773.50502@brouhaha.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: > I had often run D.E. WREGE's version of Spacewar! on my PDP-12. But > when I tried to run it on my PDP-8/E with a VC8/E and DEC VT01 (Tek > 611), I would get flashing artifacts on the screen in addition to the > normal display. > [...] > BTW: Slower displays, such as the VT01/Tek611/Tek613, do NOT need a > clock to slow down Spacewar to an appropriate speed. You've got me confused. I thought you said that the VT01/Tek611 was where you had the problem. I used to run it on a LAB-8/e using a VR14 monitor, and didn't observe the problem, but I think the VR14 is pretty slow. Eric From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 01:00:52 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:00:52 -0800 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? Message-ID: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> Picked up a very dirty but nearly entirely functional HP 9810A recently, with 9865ACassette Memory drive. While I wait for parts to repair the 9810's mag card reader and printer to arrive, I've been working on cleaning up the9865A. It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) -- however it will not move the tape forward. There are two solenoids that control the direction of the tape and one of them (for the forward direction) is not activating. It shouldn't betoo difficult to trace down the circuit and find the faulty part but before I dig too deep I thought I'd see if anyone has a service manual for this thing. I've looked in the usual places on the 'net and haven't found anything, aside from Tony's notes for the interface. Thanks as always, Josh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 11 01:05:02 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 00:05:02 -0700 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50EFB99E.5020006@brouhaha.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > The 5120 ROS is identical to the 5110 as far as I know. Yes, there might be older and newer versions of the code, and possibly the versions of executable and non-executable ROS may need to match, but generally they should be interchangeable between the 5110 and 5120. (The "computer" portion of the 5120 is considered a 5110 Model 3.) There are substantial differences between the 5100 and 5110/5120 software such that I don't think any of the ROS code, executable or non-executable, is interchangeable between them. I can read any of the ROS modules out-of-circuit, and can read the non-executable ROS in-circuit using a logic analyzer, but my 5100 has bad ROS modules so I haven't bothered reading those. CHM has a working 5100, but my request to read the ROS modules was not well-received. I can understand that they are worried that I might damage them, but they'll likely fail within the next 10 years anyhow. > It'd be nice to know what chips correspond to what portions of the ROS > tests The Maintenance Information Manual has enough information to identify the failing module. I don't think there's much point to identifying it to the chip rather than just the failing module, since it's basically implausible to repair the modules. The simplest repair is to build a replacement module using a modern flash memory chip and a CPLD. That's how I plan to fix my 5100 if I can get a dump from a good machine. I've also considered building RAM modules suitable for replacement or expansion. Eric From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 01:28:02 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:28:02 -0800 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: <50EFB99E.5020006@brouhaha.com> References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> <50EFB99E.5020006@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50EFBF02.6060309@gmail.com> On 1/10/2013 11:05 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> It'd be nice to know what chips correspond to what portions of the ROS >> tests > > The Maintenance Information Manual has enough information to identify > the failing module. I don't think there's much point to identifying > it to the chip rather than just the failing module, since it's > basically implausible to repair the modules. Not that I doubt your expertise, but can you elaborate as to why repair is implausible? Is it simply impossible / extremely difficult to remove the chips from the PCB? - Josh > The simplest repair is to build a replacement module using a modern > flash memory chip and a CPLD. That's how I plan to fix my 5100 if I > can get a dump from a good machine. I've also considered building RAM > modules suitable for replacement or expansion. > > Eric > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 11 02:09:51 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:09:51 +0000 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> Message-ID: Youy may have noticed that I have been absent for a while. The reason is that my home internet access is down, due to problems at the ISP end (I think). I am reading this in an internet cafe... > Picked up a very dirty but nearly entirely functional HP 9810A recently, > with 9865ACassette Memory drive. While I wait for parts to repair the > 9810's mag card reader and printer to arrive, I've been working on > cleaning up the9865A. Are you a member of HPCC? The reason I ask is that I wrote a series of articles for the HPCC magazine on repairing this series of machines, and you might find them interesting. I would offer to send them to you, but of course there's no real way to transfer them at the moment. > > It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) -- I would strongly recomend replacing the 2 'tyres' on the drive wheels. They're size 119 O-rings IIRC, and are not hard to get. > however it will not move the tape forward. There are two solenoids that > control the direction of the tape and one of them (for the forward > direction) is not activating. It shouldn't betoo difficult to trace down > the circuit and find the faulty part but before I dig too deep I thought > I'd see if anyone has a service manual for this thing. I've looked in > the usual places on the 'net and haven't found anything, aside from > Tony's notes for the interface. I believe that some of the boards in the internal tape controller of the HP9830 are the same (or at least very similar) to those in the HP9865 -- at least they have 09865-xxxxx part numbers. The official HP service manual covers the controller to component level, and of course there are my schematics for the HP9830. I think the board you want to be looking at (and I am doing this from memory) is the 09865-66564. There's a little logic and a couple of transistors to drive the solenoids. I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 11 02:23:42 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 01:23:42 -0700 Subject: Looking for: IBM 5110/5120 I/O bus terminator In-Reply-To: <50EFBF02.6060309@gmail.com> References: <50EBC2EE.4070109@gmail.com> <50EC3F65.2040309@bitsavers.org> <50EFB99E.5020006@brouhaha.com> <50EFBF02.6060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50EFCC0E.8010907@brouhaha.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Not that I doubt your expertise, but can you elaborate as to why > repair is implausible? Is it simply impossible / extremely difficult > to remove the chips from the PCB? It's somewhat difficult to remove them without damaging them. The bigger problem is that the chip you replace it with can't really be expected to last much longer. At this point they're all around 30 years old. I'm not certain what the failure mode is, but they seem to be past their best-by date. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 11 06:08:03 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:08:03 +0100 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002f01cdeff4$521fd910$f65f8b30$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens tony duell > Verzonden: vrijdag 11 januari 2013 9:10 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? > > Youy may have noticed that I have been absent for a while. The reason is that > my home internet access is down, due to problems at the ISP end (I think). I am > reading this in an internet cafe... > > > Picked up a very dirty but nearly entirely functional HP 9810A > > recently, with 9865ACassette Memory drive. While I wait for parts to > > repair the 9810's mag card reader and printer to arrive, I've been > > working on cleaning up the9865A. > > Are you a member of HPCC? The reason I ask is that I wrote a series of articles > for the HPCC magazine on repairing this series of machines, and you might find > them interesting. I would offer to send them to you, but of course there's no > real way to transfer them at the moment. > > > > > It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) > > -- > > I would strongly recomend replacing the 2 'tyres' on the drive wheels. They're > size 119 O-rings IIRC, and are not hard to get. > > > however it will not move the tape forward. There are two solenoids > > that control the direction of the tape and one of them (for the > > forward > > direction) is not activating. It shouldn't betoo difficult to trace > > down the circuit and find the faulty part but before I dig too deep I > > thought I'd see if anyone has a service manual for this thing. I've > > looked in the usual places on the 'net and haven't found anything, > > aside from Tony's notes for the interface. > > I believe that some of the boards in the internal tape controller of the > HP9830 are the same (or at least very similar) to those in the > HP9865 -- at least they have 09865-xxxxx part numbers. The official HP service > manual covers the controller to component level, and of course there are my > schematics for the HP9830. You can download the HP 9830 service manual at the Australian HPmuseum website. Most boards used in the 9865 are the same as in the HP 9830, I know for sure. The only boards that differ are the interface logics and the tape drive board with the head amplifiers on it. I suppose you looked at the pictures I made from one of mine on flickr, http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/sets/72157630819381098/ After you checked the motor drive board, look at the IO card (A61) because that board contains some 7403 's U1 and U3 which have a tendency to fail. If this board fails you get errors which seems to point to other components, so it should be check before you look at other boards. The manual is very handy when looking for problems, you can find there a description of all the signals with fault indications. But also check the interface card, that also can be a pain in the ass (you should ask Tony friendly if I may send you the diagram of the interface). You also should look at the LDR from the tape sensor next to the head, they have a tendency to go to a high resistance > 1k. The result of that is no fast forward winding because the sensor never 'detects' the darkening of the tape. > I think the board you want to be looking at (and I am doing this from memory) is > the 09865-66564. There's a little logic and a couple of transistors to drive the > solenoids. > > I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... Not likely.. -Rik From reiche at ls-al.eu Fri Jan 11 08:01:49 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:01:49 +0100 Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201301111401.r0BE1nCJ031838@ls-al.eu> Tom Sparks wrote: > > I've been wanting to create the old school 3D graphics feel that is seen in these books and games (see bellow) > > I am think of using wings3D[1] for the modelling > what render can create this style? > Well, you have a couple of techniques listed there, but it's old skool vector graphics which could be done using extremely simple models with large flat polygons in your modeler. Then render it with a technique called Cell Shading which a lot of render engines support, simply pick one. re, reiche From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 08:48:20 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 09:48:20 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F02634.8030900@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Yes. That was the test platform for an early CD-ROM company >> I worked for. We also had a Meridian Data CD-Publisher. >> It wrote 9-track tapes that we sent to PDO Holland. They >> would send us back some count of CDs along with the glass >> master. That was what? 1983 or maybe 1984. I had one of >> those glass masters in my office for a while but I've lost >> it somewhere along the way. > > You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions who went by > the name of "Murf", did you? Wherever he be, may he be cursed with rotting genitals. Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 11 09:08:45 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 07:08:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jan 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > For those who might be interested... > > Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color Computer. > > http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M > Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info on OS/9? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jan 11 11:25:17 2013 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 09:25:17 -0800 Subject: Update to PDP-8 Spacewar to resolve VC8/E issues In-Reply-To: <50EFB773.50502@brouhaha.com> References: <20130108144327.5b413735@asrock.bcwi.net> <50EFB773.50502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20130111092517.67944ec6@asrock.bcwi.net> On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:55:47 -0700 Eric Smith wrote: > Lyle Bickley wrote: > > I had often run D.E. WREGE's version of Spacewar! on my PDP-12. But > > when I tried to run it on my PDP-8/E with a VC8/E and DEC VT01 (Tek > > 611), I would get flashing artifacts on the screen in addition to > > the normal display. > > [...] > > BTW: Slower displays, such as the VT01/Tek611/Tek613, do NOT need a > > clock to slow down Spacewar to an appropriate speed. > > You've got me confused. I thought you said that the VT01/Tek611 was > where you had the problem. The problem was with incorrect coding of the VC8/E driver in Wrege's Spacewar! [Early on in my attempts to diagnose of the VT01 artifact problem, I thought the issue was with hardware (VC8/E or VT01), but subsequently found it to be software.] > I used to run it on a LAB-8/e using a VR14 monitor, and didn't > observe the problem, but I think the VR14 is pretty slow. The VR14 is much faster that the VT01 (which is probably why it worked). Here are the VC8/E's DEC defined load delay specs (us=microseconds): Tek602: 6us VR14: 21us VR20: 16us red, 21us green VT01/Tek611/Tek613: 100us The above are the standard configurations available for the VC8/E by changing switches and/or jumpers. Other delay time configurations are possible by changing various capacitor/resistor combinations... The incorrect code in Wrege's original driver intensified the beam before the VT01's X/Y amps had settled, hence the artifacts. I fixed that by re-writing the VC8/E driver to DEC's specs - so it will work with any device supported by a correctly configured VC8/E. configured Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 11 11:29:10 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:29:10 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> On 01/11/2013 10:08 AM, geneb wrote: >> For those who might be interested... >> >> Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color >> Computer. >> >> http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M >> > Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info > on OS/9? That would be great. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 11 11:31:27 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:31:27 -0500 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 In-Reply-To: <50F02634.8030900@gmail.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <50F02634.8030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F04C6F.4020304@neurotica.com> On 01/11/2013 09:48 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions who went by >> the name of "Murf", did you? > > Wherever he be, may he be cursed with rotting genitals. You're being far, far too nice. What an unbelievably evil individual. I get contacted about twice a year by different people who are looking for him. They always seem to be in a bad mood. I think either he owes people money, or he's just made that many enemies that, as soon as they mentally and financially recover from his shitfulness, they come looking for him. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 11 11:50:55 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:50:55 -0700 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history Message-ID: Some nice pics here with a little narrative: < http://www.eecis.udel.edu/tour-history.php> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Jan 11 11:53:42 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:53:42 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos about them." She shot me a very threatening look. I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." On 11 January 2013 17:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/11/2013 10:08 AM, geneb wrote: >>> For those who might be interested... >>> >>> Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color >>> Computer. >>> >>> http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M >>> >> Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info >> on OS/9? > > That would be great. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 11 11:56:32 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:56:32 -0700 Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <201301111401.r0BE1nCJ031838@ls-al.eu> References: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <201301111401.r0BE1nCJ031838@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: In article <201301111401.r0BE1nCJ031838 at ls-al.eu>, Sander Reiche writes: > Tom Sparks wrote: > > > > I've been wanting to create the old school 3D graphics feel that is seen in these books and games (see bellow) > > > > I am think of using wings3D[1] for the modelling > > what render can create this style? > > > Well, you have a couple of techniques listed there, but it's old skool vector > graphics which could be done using extremely simple models with large flat > polygons in your modeler. Then render it with a technique called Cell Shading > which a lot of render engines support, simply pick one. The books he cited in his list are all books describing how to write your own engine, not using someone else's, so I gather that he's thinking of doing things from scratch and not using anyone else's code. Basically, all the "old school" 3D software engines all boil down to ways of getting the inner rendering loop to run fast enough on your hardware to achieve real-time rates. This is why the monsters in DOOM are sprites and not 3D models and even the representation of the game level is strictly 2D. (On areas where there appears to be a 3D element with ramps, stairs and such, you cannot go underneath any of those raised areas.) The data structures used to hold the maps are custom for the game and basically use a boundary representation (i.e. "B-reps") so that you can cast rays from a pixel and quickly determine what they intersect and at what depth, in order to render the pixel appropriately. They also use limited precision (both spatially and in colorspace) textures in order to simplify rendering. In other words, it's a highly constrained rendering engine and its the constraints that simplify the problem to the extent that it could be rendered in software at interactive rates on a dumb frame buffer with no Z-buffer support (i.e. a VGA card). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 10:57:23 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:57:23 -0200 Subject: Early CD-ROMs was: NASA computers circa 1969 References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252739C5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0c5901cdeabc$87bf39e0$973dada0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <50E74942.9060700@neurotica.com> <50F02634.8030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A0CE91B68D442DCAC81E553B5121007@tababook> >> You didn't work for a flaming asshole of epic proportions who went by >> the name of "Murf", did you? > Wherever he be, may he be cursed with rotting genitals. Of continental dimensions! > Peace... Sridhar ^^^^^ Ay, yeah! :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 11 12:10:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:10:13 -0500 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F05585.200@neurotica.com> On 01/11/2013 12:50 PM, Richard wrote: > Some nice pics here with a little narrative: > < http://www.eecis.udel.edu/tour-history.php> Wow, some great pics there! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 11 12:13:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:13:13 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F05639.9000802@neurotica.com> We don't like your wife. ;) -Dave On 01/11/2013 12:53 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" > > I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos > about them." > > She shot me a very threatening look. > > I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." > > On 11 January 2013 17:29, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 01/11/2013 10:08 AM, geneb wrote: >>>> For those who might be interested... >>>> >>>> Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color >>>> Computer. >>>> >>>> http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M >>>> >>> Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info >>> on OS/9? >> >> That would be great. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jan 11 12:25:23 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 07:25:23 +1300 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > >Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info > >on OS/9? >That would be great. Unfortunately no, primarily because I don't own a Coco 2 or 3 or know anything about OS/9 (-: As of now I'm just sticking the items in my collection (http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/index.htm) slowly going through them working (roughly) from oldest to newest. It's gonna take a while, but it's a good chance to drag them out, check them out and learn a little more about them. The next one will be on the (or rather my) Epson HX-20. Thanks for the positive comments though. I'm glad people are enjoying them. Terry (Tez) From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Jan 11 12:41:49 2013 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:41:49 -0500 Subject: OS/8 RK05 Disk Copy Message-ID: <233bcc4f$6eebe92e$13227ba4$@com> Quick question There are three executables that I know of to copy RK05 disks in OS/8 on a PDP 8/e. RXCOPY RKCOPY RKUTIL Using RKCOPY I was able to generate exact copies of the 0 partition only. Any tips for how to get both partitions to another disk? What's the best utility. I hate to experiment on someone else's disks too much, doing the copy for a fellow MARCH club member. RKA0 --> RKB0 RKA1 --> RKB1 Thanks Bill From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Jan 11 12:49:37 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:49:37 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F05639.9000802@neurotica.com> References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> <50F05639.9000802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I know. On 11 January 2013 18:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > > We don't like your wife. ;) > > -Dave > > On 01/11/2013 12:53 PM, John Many Jars wrote: >> My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" >> >> I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos >> about them." >> >> She shot me a very threatening look. >> >> I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." >> >> On 11 January 2013 17:29, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On 01/11/2013 10:08 AM, geneb wrote: >>>>> For those who might be interested... >>>>> >>>>> Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color >>>>> Computer. >>>>> >>>>> http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M >>>>> >>>> Neat stuff Terry! Are you planning on doing the 2 and 3 with some info >>>> on OS/9? >>> >>> That would be great. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>> New Kensington, PA >> >> >> > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- What does a scanner see? he asked himself. I mean, really see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does a ... scanner like they use these days... see into me?into us?clearly or darkly? I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can?t any longer these days see into myself.... if the scanner sees only darkly, the way I myself do, then we are cursed, cursed again and like we have been continually, and we?ll wind up dead this way, knowing very little and getting that little fragment wrong too. - A Scanner Darkly, Philip K. Dick From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jan 11 12:49:46 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 07:49:46 +1300 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" > > I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos > about them." > > She shot me a very threatening look. > > I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." LOL!! Funny. Gotta love spouses. (-: I might be slightly closer, even though there is still a whole lot of ocean. I'm in New Zealand. (-: The accents are pretty similar though. According to linguists they are the same dialect, although of course we can tell them apart. Terry (Tez) From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 11 12:56:39 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:56:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > Unfortunately no, primarily because I don't own a Coco 2 or 3 or know > anything about OS/9 (-: > Well now you know what you need to add to your collection. :) > Thanks for the positive comments though. I'm glad people are enjoying them. > I think it's neat. I get to see machines I've never been exposed to like the Dick Smith 80. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 12:59:57 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:59:57 -0200 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <58DC9C453B384DA0A97F45A9AE4DFC51@tababook> > My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" > I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos > about them." > She shot me a very threatening look. > I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." Time to upgrade $Wife ($deity, thanks a lot for you keeping me single, owner of my own nose, with my house full of toys and no boring gal to tell me what I can do or what I can have...Thanks a lot!) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:08:16 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:08:16 -0200 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Thanks for the positive comments though. I'm glad people are enjoying > them. Sure we are! ;oD From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 11 13:29:30 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:29:30 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <58DC9C453B384DA0A97F45A9AE4DFC51@tababook> References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> <58DC9C453B384DA0A97F45A9AE4DFC51@tababook> Message-ID: <50F0681A.6070107@neurotica.com> On 01/11/2013 01:59 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" >> I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos >> about them." >> She shot me a very threatening look. >> I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." > > Time to upgrade $Wife > > ($deity, thanks a lot for you keeping me single, owner of my own > nose, with my house full of toys and no boring gal to tell me what I can > do or what I can have...Thanks a lot!) I'm gonna start a Kickstarter project to find both Alexandre and John decent women. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:47:06 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:47:06 -0200 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube References: <50F04BE6.4020805@neurotica.com> <58DC9C453B384DA0A97F45A9AE4DFC51@tababook> <50F0681A.6070107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ECBA6D6CC1A481F831F545AC2E442AD@tababook> >>> My wife saw your video, and said, "what's that?" >>> I said, "It's this guy who has loads of old computers and makes videos >>> about them." >>> She shot me a very threatening look. >>> I said, "you're safe, he's in Australia." >> Time to upgrade $Wife >> ($deity, thanks a lot for you keeping me single, owner of my own >> nose, with my house full of toys and no boring gal to tell me what I can >> do or what I can have...Thanks a lot!) > I'm gonna start a Kickstarter project to find both Alexandre and John > decent women. ;) Please. I like blue eyed blondies. Nothing against reds. Please, at least 1.70 and not too much chubby. How good is to have friends? :oD From tony.eros at machm.org Fri Jan 11 14:24:01 2013 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:24:01 -0500 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90@machm.org> Very nice blast from the past!! Sent from my iPhone On Jan 11, 2013, at 12:50 PM, Richard wrote: > Some nice pics here with a little narrative: > < http://www.eecis.udel.edu/tour-history.php> > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 11 15:28:50 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:28:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F0681A.6070107@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jan 11, 13 02:29:30 pm" Message-ID: <201301112128.r0BLSoAu21299270@floodgap.com> > I'm gonna start a Kickstarter project to find both Alexandre and John > decent women. ;) I have a good idea exactly what kind you'll get from that, too. ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Artificial intelligence is no match for natural idiocy. -------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 11 16:25:44 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:25:44 -0700 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history In-Reply-To: <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90@machm.org> References: <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90@machm.org> Message-ID: In article <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90 at machm.org>, Tony Eros writes: > Very nice blast from the past!! Yes, I will be adding these pictures (with permission from Chuck Cranor who took them) to the terminals wiki page for udel terminals. Tony, I sent you a private email regarding the Stardent. Did you get it? If not, please check your spam folder :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 11 17:17:44 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:17:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <201301112128.r0BLSoAu21299270@floodgap.com> References: <201301112128.r0BLSoAu21299270@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20130111151640.Y71687@shell.lmi.net> > I'm gonna start a Kickstarter project to find both Alexandre and John > decent women. ;) For those of us who have given up hope, can we get access to the database of the INdecent women? From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 11 17:59:40 2013 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:59:40 -0600 Subject: server migration beginning Message-ID: <66A07586-5994-430F-85DB-28F717DB194D@classiccmp.org> Yes, I'm running far far behind schedule with our new datacenter buildout. I'm finally to a point where I can start migrating classiccmp-related stuff. I'll be migrating the classiccmp-related websites that we host first (but not the main classiccmp.org site and subdirectories therein). That will start tonight probably. Anyone who has classiccmp-related websites hosted on classiccmp.org server, please do not make any changes to content over the next few days - that would make it easier on me. Also, while we provide DNS for most of the domains on that server, there are a few there that are using some other dns servers. If that is the case, please make an effort to respond quickly with regards to changes in A records. Several people contacted me a month or two ago about hosting additional classiccmp-related sites. I have those emails in a separate mailbox and will be getting back to each of you after the final classiccmp migration is done. After the websites are moved, but before I get ready to migrate the mailman/list setup, I'll post another update at that point so you're aware of the impending migration. Best, Jay From francois.dion at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 16:50:04 2013 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:50:04 -0500 Subject: LCD display from the 60s Message-ID: Invented by mr Granjean. Well, ok, maybe not LCD, perhaps LAD? http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2013/01/pi-sketch.html I had to do something while I'm waiting on my P112 kit :) Francois -- www.pyptug.org - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 19:21:34 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:21:34 -0500 Subject: Calendar Message-ID: Has anyone seen the Nerd Calendar put out by "classic-computer fan Jan Kaufmann"? According to reviews it's rather 'racy'... From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 20:19:39 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:19:39 -0500 Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357812472.41386.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A few game publishers in the 90's released their source code, so if you are decent at hacking together code or using their level/modding tools, you can just use one of the old engines. Here's a remake of Descent using the original source: http://www.dxx-rebirth.com/ Here are a bunch of different versions of Doom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prboom Here's a review of the Quake II source code, with some cool video of John Carmack's rather insane Intergraph workstation in the 90's: http://fabiensanglard.net/quake2/index.php Here's a whole bunch of games based on old open source game engines, including the gtkRadiant level editor and quake 2: http://icculus.org/ From jon at jonworld.com Fri Jan 11 20:19:52 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:19:52 -0500 Subject: Calendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1B1D74E6-A8C2-47CB-BE77-D5767ED4DE20@jonworld.com> On Jan 11, 2013, at 8:21 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > Nerd Calendar put out by "classic-computer fan Jan > Kaufmann After some googling, I found more info here? http://www.nerd-dreams.com/ From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 20:25:51 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:25:51 -0800 Subject: Calendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F0C9AF.1070007@gmail.com> On 1/11/2013 5:21 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > Has anyone seen the Nerd Calendar put out by "classic-computer fan Jan > Kaufmann"? According to reviews it's rather 'racy'... This ? http://www.nerd-dreams.com/ Doesn't look all that racy or interesting really. From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 20:52:49 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 02:52:49 +0000 Subject: Calendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <859662036-1357959168-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-137575661-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Not sure about that specific one. I did get (as a gift .. (I was single and it was a gift to them who didn't want it) until I was in a relationship lol) a "nerd" calendar once that was all nude women on various consoles, etc. Perhaps rhats what you were referring to? Yes it was racy and definitely only single/man cave material. Although my friends and I are all nerdy enough that we were looking past the girl at the game collection on the shelves behind her which was damn impressive. Not something I would have ever spent money on but I don't recall the name or whether it was successful or not. -----Original Message----- From: Murray McCullough Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:21:34 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Calendar Has anyone seen the Nerd Calendar put out by "classic-computer fan Jan Kaufmann"? According to reviews it's rather 'racy'... From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 22:34:06 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:34:06 -0800 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: <002f01cdeff4$521fd910$f65f8b30$@xs4all.nl> References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> <002f01cdeff4$521fd910$f65f8b30$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50F0E7BE.5020000@gmail.com> On 1/11/2013 4:08 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > cs for the HP9830. > You can download the HP 9830 service manual at the Australian HPmuseum > website. > Most boards used in the 9865 are the same as in the HP 9830, I know for > sure. > The only boards that differ are the interface logics and the tape drive > board with the head amplifiers on it. Cool. I wasn't aware that the 9830 had a similar cassette drive in it. I've now got the service manual and it looks like it should make tracking down the problem fairly straightforward. I hope. :). > I suppose you looked at the pictures I made from one of mine on flickr, > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/sets/72157630819381098/ > > After you checked the motor drive board, look at the IO card (A61) because > that board contains some 7403 's U1 and U3 which have a tendency to fail. > If this board fails you get errors which seems to point to other components, > so it should be check before you look at other boards. > The manual is very handy when looking for problems, you can find there a > description of all the signals with fault indications. > But also check the interface card, that also can be a pain in the ass (you > should ask Tony friendly if I may send you the diagram of the interface). Thanks. At the moment, it looks like the interface is working properly -- the forward motor spins up OK, it just doesn't get engaged by the solenoid properly. (And other functions under control from the 9810 work OK.) Hopefully it's just the circuit for the solenoid that's at fault. > > You also should look at the LDR from the tape sensor next to the head, they > have a tendency to go to a high resistance > 1k. > The result of that is no fast forward winding because the sensor never > 'detects' the darkening of the tape. That seems to be working OK. It rewinds/forwards slowly until it passes the lead-in and then it speeds up. Thanks! Josh > >> I think the board you want to be looking at (and I am doing this from > memory) is >> the 09865-66564. There's a little logic and a couple of transistors to > drive the >> solenoids. >> >> I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... > Not likely.. > > -Rik > > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 22:37:58 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:37:58 -0800 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> On 1/11/2013 12:09 AM, tony duell wrote: > Youy may have noticed that I have been absent for a while. The reason is > that my home internet access is down, due to problems at the ISP end > (I think). I am reading this in an internet cafe... Hope your internet connection is restored soon! > >> Picked up a very dirty but nearly entirely functional HP 9810A recently, >> with 9865ACassette Memory drive. While I wait for parts to repair the >> 9810's mag card reader and printer to arrive, I've been working on >> cleaning up the9865A. > Are you a member of HPCC? The reason I ask is that I wrote a series of > articles for the HPCC magazine on repairing this series of machines, and you > might find them interesting. I would offer to send them to you, but of course > there's no real way to transfer them at the moment. I'm not, but I suppose at this point I probably should be :). I'd be interested in seeing your articles. I've found a couple of things attributed to you on repairing the printer and the card reader, and I'll be attempting repair of the printer as soon as the cold-shrink tubing I ordered arrives. (Platen is basically tar at this point.) > >> It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) -- > I would strongly recomend replacing the 2 'tyres' on the drive wheels. They're > size 119 O-rings IIRC, and are not hard to get. Good to know. The ones that are in there seem to be in good shape, they're still pretty rubbery and aren't degrading into goo like everything in the 9810 did. But I'll need to replace them at some point, I'm sure. > >> however it will not move the tape forward. There are two solenoids that >> control the direction of the tape and one of them (for the forward >> direction) is not activating. It shouldn't betoo difficult to trace down >> the circuit and find the faulty part but before I dig too deep I thought >> I'd see if anyone has a service manual for this thing. I've looked in >> the usual places on the 'net and haven't found anything, aside from >> Tony's notes for the interface. > I believe that some of the boards in the internal tape controller of the > HP9830 are the same (or at least very similar) to those in the > HP9865 -- at least they have 09865-xxxxx part numbers. The > official HP service manual covers the controller to component > level, and of course there are my schematics for the HP9830. > > I think the board you want to be looking at (and I am doing > this from memory) is the 09865-66564. There's a little > logic and a couple of transistors to drive the solenoids. Cool. I've now got the 9830 service manual and I'll be doing some debugging this weekend. > > I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... I will definitely be checking that. I need to trace the wires back to where they connect to the logic board first. Thanks! - Josh > > -tony > From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sat Jan 12 02:26:26 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 00:26:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1357979186.6130.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > Tom Sparks wrote: >> >> I've been wanting to create the old school 3D graphics feel that is > seen in these books and games (see bellow) >> >> I am think of using wings3D[1] for the modelling >> what render can create this style? >> > Well, you have a couple of techniques listed there, but it's old skool > vector > graphics which could be done using extremely simple models with large flat > polygons in your modeler. Then render it with a technique called Cell Shading > which a lot of render engines support, simply pick one. > I would like to see cell shading do an image like this http://www.supernintendoclassics.com/wp-content/uploads/StarFoxNoUpres.png --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sat Jan 12 04:29:37 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 02:29:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > The books he cited in his list are all books describing how to write > your own engine, not using someone else's, so I gather that he's > thinking of doing things from scratch and not using anyone else's > code. I'm not think of doing it scratch, the books i cited are ones witch I read in the 90's I only have Andr? LaMothe's Black Art of 3D Game Programming (on CD with source code) and Waite Group Press's "Virtual Reality Creations." (no source code) on hand the others i borrowed from a library I've talked to the webgl community about this, and their reply was it could be done, without a reference i am looking for object viewer programs that display models at 640x480 > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > > ? ? The Computer Graphics Museum > ? ? ? ? The Terminals Wiki > ? Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > PS: I was hopping you would join this thread --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Jan 12 10:51:24 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:51:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201301121651.LAA04977@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm not think of doing it [from] scratch, > I've talked to the webgl community about this, and their reply was it > could be done, without a reference > i am looking for object viewer programs that display models at > 640x480 Quite a while ago I wrote an entirely-in-software renderer, not because I thought the world needed another renderer but because I wanted to understand what was involved. It is unlikely to be directly suitable for your purposes, but you may be able to pull off the X interface I use and put on whatever you need, leaving the basic renderer intact. It's part of a larger collection of code, which you likely don't want. (It's available as a git repo, git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/render, but, as I say, that will also get you a bunch of other stuff you likely don't want.) I've pulled out just the program containing the renderer and put it up for FTP; see ftp.rodents-montreal.org, /mouse/misc/render/ in particular. Note that portability was not particularly a design goal, so it likely depends on one or more aspects of my local environment. If you have trouble building it let me know and I may be able to help, or explain at the very least. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 11:03:48 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:03:48 +0000 Subject: Lotus Improv In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BCB73B@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723BCB73B@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On 10 January 2013 18:45, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Anyone remember Lotus Improv? I do, and fondly, too. Very interesting app. > I understand that a version 3.0 was finished, though unreleased, and was a 32-bit application (unlike the final 2.1, which is 16-bit). Anyone know if Improv 3.0 survived? I did not know that and I've never seen or heard of anything of that kind. If it did, though, I'd /love/ to see it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 11:07:29 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:07:29 +0000 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10 January 2013 02:46, Richard wrote: > The DOOM FAQ says that the minimum supported environment is a 386sx > with 4MB of RAM and 4.8-12MB disk space. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v7cFGneuaw DOOM on a 128K Spectrum with a disk interface. Of course it could be faked... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Jan 12 11:10:20 2013 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:10:20 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> On 1/10/2013 6:12 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > For those who might be interested... > > Another one of my rest-home residents hits YouTube. The TRS-80 Color Computer. > > http://youtu.be/2Lqa4fHlw6M > > Terry Stewart (Tez) > That's marvelous, thanks! I've always been a huge fan of the 6809. I've got way too much stuff already, but I'm afraid that if I ever ran onto a CoCo at a garage sale it might follow me home. I've so far successfully resisted buying one on ebay. I noticed as you were flipping through the Operations Manual there appeared to be a sketch of the back of a TV with an RF modulator attached. This makes me wonder if some early models may not have included the integral modulator. Perhaps the sketch was just showing you how to connect the CoCo while avoiding going through a modulator that was already present for some other device. Come to think of it, the modulator they showed in the sketch looked rather similar to the one for my Atari 2600. -- Later, Charlie C. In God We Trust!!! From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 11:22:22 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:22:22 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: <50ECFC24.2070300@jwsss.com> References: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> <50ECFC24.2070300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 9 January 2013 05:12, jim s wrote: > I prefer the "don't panic" Doug Adams button myself. > (?) Do tell... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jan 12 12:32:11 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 07:32:11 +1300 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> References: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: > That's marvelous, thanks! Thanks Charlie, > I noticed as you were flipping through the Operations Manual there appeared > to be a sketch of the back of a TV with an RF modulator attached. This > makes me wonder if some early models may not have included the integral > modulator. Perhaps the sketch was just showing you how to connect the CoCo > while avoiding going through a modulator that was already present for some > other device. Come to think of it, the modulator they showed in the sketch > looked rather similar to the one for my Atari 2600. I'll have to dig the manual out again when I'm back in the shack but I think the device shown was actually a splitter, allowing the aerial or computer to be connected just by throwing a switch. Terry (tez) From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 12 12:51:24 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 13:51:24 -0500 Subject: OS/8 RK05 Disk Copy In-Reply-To: <233bcc4f$6eebe92e$13227ba4$@com> References: <233bcc4f$6eebe92e$13227ba4$@com> Message-ID: <20130112185124.GA3545@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 01:41:49PM -0500, B. Degnan wrote: > Quick question > > There are three executables that I know of to copy RK05 disks in OS/8 on a > PDP 8/e. > > RXCOPY > RXCOPY copies floppies > RKCOPY > RKUTIL > > Using RKCOPY I was able to generate exact copies of the 0 partition only. > Any tips for how to get both partitions to another disk? What's the best > utility. I hate to experiment on someone else's disks too much, doing the > copy for a fellow MARCH club member. > RKCOPY works for me (under emulator, only one disk attached to my real machine currently). .R RKCOPY RK8/E DISK COPY PROGRAM V2.1 WHAT DRIVE SHOULD I READ ?0 WHAT DRIVE SHOULD I WRITE ?1 DO YOU WANT TO VERIFY THE COPY ?Y COPYING AND VERIFYING THE COPY... COPY AND VERIFICATION COMPLETE DO YOU WANT ANOTHER COPY ?N .DIR RKA1: .DIR RKB1: New output image is same size as input. Is it aborting with an error on your machine? Used this image and RKCOPY http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/diagpack2.rk05;sort=name From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 12 13:07:28 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 14:07:28 -0500 Subject: S-100 LAVA PCBs have arrived! Message-ID: <000201cdf0f8$1d6ada30$58408e90$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! There are about 13 S-100 LAVA PCBs remaining. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm If you would like one or more please contact me. They are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your board right away! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jan 12 13:28:50 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 14:28:50 -0500 Subject: Update to PDP-8 Spacewar to resolve VC8/E issues In-Reply-To: <50EFB773.50502@brouhaha.com> References: <50EFB773.50502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20130112192850.GA6382@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 11:55:47PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > > I used to run it on a LAB-8/e using a VR14 monitor, and didn't > observe the problem, but I think the VR14 is pretty slow. > This version online looks like it was fixed. Were you using it? It stuck a clear flags 6050 in also. http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/VC8/SPCWR3_vc8i.PA Their is one difference between them that may be wrong. It looks like the new version may have an unwanted line wrap. Above version diff output < -6;-10; -2;-10; 0;-10; 2;-10; 4;-10; 5;-10; 7;-10; -5;-11; -3;-11; -1;-11 --- New version has the second digit of the -11 on the next line. > -6;-10; -2;-10; 0;-10; 2;-10; 4;-10; 5;-10; 7;-10; -5;-11; -3;-11; -1;-1 > 1 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 12 14:36:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 15:36:51 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> References: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <50F1C963.9010705@neurotica.com> On 01/12/2013 12:10 PM, Charlie Carothers wrote: > I noticed as you were flipping through the Operations Manual there > appeared to be a sketch of the back of a TV with an RF modulator > attached. This makes me wonder if some early models may not have > included the integral modulator. Perhaps the sketch was just showing > you how to connect the CoCo while avoiding going through a modulator > that was already present for some other device. Come to think of it, > the modulator they showed in the sketch looked rather similar to the one > for my Atari 2600. Unless I'm dramatically misremembering things, the 2600 has no direct video output, and thus cannot make use of an external RF modulator. Perhaps what you're seeing is the switch box? They were all largely similar. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 12 14:49:54 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 12:49:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F1C963.9010705@neurotica.com> References: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> <50F1C963.9010705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130112124625.S90044@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > Unless I'm dramatically misremembering things, the 2600 has no direct > video output, and thus cannot make use of an external RF modulator. > Perhaps what you're seeing is the switch box? They were all largely > similar. Likewise, the original Coco did NOT have an external connector for composite video. If you wanted composite video, you needed to open the case, and solder up an additional connector. The picture(s) in the manuals were of a switchbox, which converted from coax RF to 75-ohm archaic antenna connector. RS made a big deal about using such a switchbox, so that the TV could still be used as a TV, AND so that the computer output never got connected in parallel, providing it with an antenna. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jan 12 15:11:26 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 13:11:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: <50F1C963.9010705@neurotica.com> References: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> <50F1C963.9010705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jan 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/12/2013 12:10 PM, Charlie Carothers wrote: >> I noticed as you were flipping through the Operations Manual there >> appeared to be a sketch of the back of a TV with an RF modulator >> attached. This makes me wonder if some early models may not have >> included the integral modulator. Perhaps the sketch was just showing >> you how to connect the CoCo while avoiding going through a modulator >> that was already present for some other device. Come to think of it, >> the modulator they showed in the sketch looked rather similar to the one >> for my Atari 2600. > > Unless I'm dramatically misremembering things, the 2600 has no direct video > output, and thus cannot make use of an external RF modulator. Perhaps what > you're seeing is the switch box? They were all largely similar. For what it's worth, there are mods to add composite (and S-video) output to the 2600. I prefer the one from Longhorn Engineer (http://longhornengineer.com/projects/atari-av-mods/) -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From sjef.van.leeuwen at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 20:24:57 2013 From: sjef.van.leeuwen at gmail.com (Sjef van Leeuwen) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 03:24:57 +0100 Subject: server migration beginning In-Reply-To: <66A07586-5994-430F-85DB-28F717DB194D@classiccmp.org> References: <66A07586-5994-430F-85DB-28F717DB194D@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: have a smooth migration., On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Jay West wrote: > Yes, I'm running far far behind schedule with our new datacenter buildout. > I'm finally to a point where I can start migrating classiccmp-related stuff. > > I'll be migrating the classiccmp-related websites that we host first (but > not the main classiccmp.org site and subdirectories therein). That will > start tonight probably. > > Anyone who has classiccmp-related websites hosted on classiccmp.orgserver, please do not make any changes to content over the next few days - > that would make it easier on me. Also, while we provide DNS for most of the > domains on that server, there are a few there that are using some other dns > servers. If that is the case, please make an effort to respond quickly with > regards to changes in A records. > > Several people contacted me a month or two ago about hosting additional > classiccmp-related sites. I have those emails in a separate mailbox and > will be getting back to each of you after the final classiccmp migration is > done. > > After the websites are moved, but before I get ready to migrate the > mailman/list setup, I'll post another update at that point so you're aware > of the impending migration. > > Best, > > Jay > > -- Sjef van Leeuwen TCPX | Obliehoren 17 | 2201 VA Noordwijk ZH | The Netherlands Profile Site: http://www.linkedin.com/in/svanleeuwen Tel: +31 6-23967181 (Netherlands) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 12 15:28:02 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 14:28:02 -0700 Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo at web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, Tom Sparks writes: > I've talked to the webgl community about this, and their reply was it could > be done, without a reference Are you looking to just reproduce the look or are you also wanting to reproduce the technology used back then? If just the former, it's not hard at all, since you're simply using existing technology in a lower fidelity mode. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 12 15:40:45 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 14:40:45 -0700 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > On 10 January 2013 02:46, Richard wrote: > > The DOOM FAQ says that the minimum supported environment is a 386sx > > with 4MB of RAM and 4.8-12MB disk space. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v7cFGneuaw > > DOOM on a 128K Spectrum with a disk interface. > > Of course it could be faked... Looks legit. I also notice that they reduced the fidelity of the game considerably in order to make it fit. Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. The closest stock unit I can think of that has enough hardware to be comparable to an 80s home/gaming microcomputer is the Terak. (It has the ability to produce limited audio.) However, I wouldn't want to be the guy that has to take the DOOM source and recode everything in assembly language in order to make it fit in the machine. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Jan 12 16:02:37 2013 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:02:37 -0500 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history Message-ID: <7bfa85fa$66cdc22e$2d513879$@com> > Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history > Message-ID: > > Some nice pics here with a little narrative: > < http://www.eecis.udel.edu/tour-history.php> > This is when I went to the U of D...I remember those Zenith terminals were in most labs. I checked years later, "..any old Dec stuff in storage someplace?" all of this stuff is long gone except for one Dec Line printer II in the kitchenette of the Comp Sci annex building on West Main St. I did get a few little DEC things, here's one: http://vintagecomputer.net/UofDelaware/hyperdiagnostic/ I have a few ethernet cards from the pictured systems with the hard-coded Ethernet addresses. Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 12 16:11:12 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:11:12 -0500 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history In-Reply-To: <7bfa85fa$66cdc22e$2d513879$@com> References: <7bfa85fa$66cdc22e$2d513879$@com> Message-ID: <50F1DF80.8050309@neurotica.com> On 01/12/2013 05:02 PM, B. Degnan wrote: >> < http://www.eecis.udel.edu/tour-history.php> > > This is when I went to the U of D...I remember those Zenith terminals were > in most labs. I checked years later, "..any old Dec stuff in storage > someplace?" all of this stuff is long gone except for one Dec Line printer > II in the kitchenette of the Comp Sci annex building on West Main St. Do you know Ernie Perez, Bob Mader, or Mike Santiago? They all helped me quite a bit by feeding me hardware, distribution tapes, and information when I was in my teen years. Ernie and Bob are in some of those pictures. When I first got my driver license my then-girlfriend and I would drive down to Ernie's place in DE to hack on PDP-11s and watch movies. > I did get a few little DEC things, here's one: > http://vintagecomputer.net/UofDelaware/hyperdiagnostic/ Hey, that's a front panel from a DSD-880! Where's the rest of it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 16:22:14 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 20:22:14 -0200 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history References: <7bfa85fa$66cdc22e$2d513879$@com> <50F1DF80.8050309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <52671E3D4A1F42C592289C2E09E3ED76@tababook> > When I first got my driver license my then-girlfriend and I would > drive down to Ernie's place in DE to hack on PDP-11s and watch movies. Nice time when people could be friends and not be accused of pedophily... From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 12 20:43:14 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 21:43:14 -0500 Subject: University of Delaware EE department machine history In-Reply-To: <52671E3D4A1F42C592289C2E09E3ED76@tababook> References: <7bfa85fa$66cdc22e$2d513879$@com> <50F1DF80.8050309@neurotica.com> <52671E3D4A1F42C592289C2E09E3ED76@tababook> Message-ID: <50F21F42.8010301@neurotica.com> On 01/12/2013 05:22 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> When I first got my driver license my then-girlfriend and I would >> drive down to Ernie's place in DE to hack on PDP-11s and watch movies. > > Nice time when people could be friends and not be accused of > pedophily... Yes. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wilson at dbit.com Sat Jan 12 21:49:51 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 22:49:51 -0500 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130113034951.GA19736@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 02:40:45PM -0700, Richard wrote: >Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to >that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. Maybe not on the base models, but I always figured a PDP-11 with a VT11 or VSV11 for graphics and any of the ADC and DAC cards for paddles/joysticks and audio would be a kick-ass games system. (One which cost more than a house when it was new, but not a few years later.) John Wilson D Bit From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 23:36:45 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 23:36:45 -0600 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: <20130113034951.GA19736@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <20130113034951.GA19736@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: jajajajaja On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 9:49 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 02:40:45PM -0700, Richard wrote: >>Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to >>that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. > > Maybe not on the base models, but I always figured a PDP-11 with a VT11 or > VSV11 for graphics and any of the ADC and DAC cards for paddles/joysticks and > audio would be a kick-ass games system. (One which cost more than a house when > it was new, but not a few years later.) > > John Wilson > D Bit From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Jan 12 23:40:36 2013 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 23:40:36 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 CoCo 1 video on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <50F198FC.9020004@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <50F248D4.3010703@tx.rr.com> On 1/12/2013 12:32 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> That's marvelous, thanks! > > Thanks Charlie, > >> I noticed as you were flipping through the Operations Manual there appeared >> to be a sketch of the back of a TV with an RF modulator attached. This >> makes me wonder if some early models may not have included the integral >> modulator. Perhaps the sketch was just showing you how to connect the CoCo >> while avoiding going through a modulator that was already present for some >> other device. Come to think of it, the modulator they showed in the sketch >> looked rather similar to the one for my Atari 2600. > > I'll have to dig the manual out again when I'm back in the shack but I > think the device shown was actually a splitter, allowing the aerial or > computer to be connected just by throwing a switch. > > Terry (tez) > Leverages self out of recliner, and goes and looks at 2600 after reading Dave's, Fred's and David's responses. Sigh - that's what I get for making a comment based on my ever doubtful memory. The small Atari box I had remembered is just an RF switch, as the 2600 outputs a modulated RF signal just as the CoCo does. David Griffith's comment about the mod to give the 2600 the ability to have composite and S-video outputs is an interesting thought. That might be fun to look into some day. -- Later, Charlie C. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 13 03:55:06 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 09:55:06 +0000 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> , <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > You may have noticed that I have been absent for a while. The reason is > > that my home internet access is down, due to problems at the ISP end > > (I think). I am reading this in an internet cafe... > > Hope your internet connection is restored soon! Some chance... It's now been nearly 3 weeks. Demon do not seem to be very helpful or clueful about this :-( > > > > >> Picked up a very dirty but nearly entirely functional HP 9810A recently, > >> with 9865ACassette Memory drive. While I wait for parts to repair the > >> 9810's mag card reader and printer to arrive, I've been working on > >> cleaning up the9865A. > > Are you a member of HPCC? The reason I ask is that I wrote a series of > > articles for the HPCC magazine on repairing this series of machines, and you > > might find them interesting. I would offer to send them to you, but of course > > there's no real way to transfer them at the moment. > > I'm not, but I suppose at this point I probably should be :). I'd be Well, the club _officially_ covers the handheld HP calculators (from the original 35 onwards), but there is significant interest in other related machines like HP desktops. > interested in seeing your articles. I've found a couple of things I will see what I can do... > attributed to you on repairing the printer and the card reader, and I'll > be attempting repair of the printer as soon as the cold-shrink tubing I > ordered arrives. (Platen is basically tar at this point.) I do explain this repair in the articles. There are a lot of little bits to remove and refit.... > > > > >> It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) -- > > I would strongly recomend replacing the 2 'tyres' on the drive wheels. They're > > size 119 O-rings IIRC, and are not hard to get. > > Good to know. The ones that are in there seem to be in good shape, > they're still pretty rubbery and aren't degrading into goo like > everything in the 9810 did. But I'll need to replace them at some > point, I'm sure. That's a fairly easy repair, at least once the drive is apart... > > > > I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... > > I will definitely be checking that. I need to trace the wires back to > where they connect to the logic board first. On the 9830, the tape drive has 4 little 'plugs' (PCBs with pins), one for the motors, one for the optosensor, one for the solenoids/microswitches and one for the preamp PCB. The 9865 may be different. In any case, tracing 2 wires can't be hard :-) If there is 09864-66564 PCB in there, the the solenoids are connected between pins on that board (open-collector stages on the board) to +12V. Shouldn't be hard to check. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 08:28:38 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:28:38 +0000 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12 January 2013 21:40, Richard wrote: > Looks legit. I also notice that they reduced the fidelity of the game > considerably in order to make it fit. Indeed. > Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to > that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. Well, fair point, but then again, I was addressing the angle of whether a PDP could possibly have the CPU power & storage needed. I think that vid suggests the answer could be "yes" /on that front./ > The closest stock unit I can think of that has enough hardware to be > comparable to an 80s home/gaming microcomputer is the Terak. (It has > the ability to produce limited audio.) Interesting. Had to Google that. Sounds fun! An alternative: what was the Russian home computer which was PDP-compatible? > However, I wouldn't want to be the guy that has to take the DOOM > source and recode everything in assembly language in order to make it > fit in the machine. :?) I find myself quite intrigued by the possibility of a PDP/11 with graphics. That would be something I would quite like to play with. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 13 11:21:01 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 12:21:01 -0500 Subject: Elektronika BK - Soviet PDP-11 compatible - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F2ECFD.4010209@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/01/13 9:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > ... > An alternative: what was the Russian home computer which was PDP-compatible? > BK Elektronika iirc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK --Toby > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 13 12:58:38 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 11:58:38 -0700 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > On 12 January 2013 21:40, Richard wrote: > > Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to > > that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. > > Well, fair point, but then again, I was addressing the angle of > whether a PDP could possibly have the CPU power & storage needed. I > think that vid suggests the answer could be "yes" /on that front./ Yes, it does serve as an interesting data point that shows how much DOOM you can cram into a little machine :-). > > The closest stock unit I can think of that has enough hardware to be > > comparable to an 80s home/gaming microcomputer is the Terak. (It has > > the ability to produce limited audio.) > > Interesting. Had to Google that. Sounds fun! I've gotten docs scanned and put up on bitsavers; the memory-mapped registers for the graphics hardware and sound port (basically a PWM analog line connected to the speaker in the monitor) are explained. > An alternative: what was the Russian home computer which was > PDP-compatible? That could be another interesting alternative. > I find myself quite intrigued by the possibility of a PDP/11 with > graphics. That would be something I would quite like to play with. A bunch of DEC's early graphics "terminals" were indeed just that. The GT40, GT62, etc., were all machines with a PDP-11 as the graphics controller and a dynamic refresh display. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wilson at dbit.com Sun Jan 13 13:30:30 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:30:30 -0500 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130113193030.GA560@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 11:58:38AM -0700, Richard wrote: >> > The closest stock unit I can think of that has enough hardware to be >> > comparable to an 80s home/gaming microcomputer is the Terak. (It has >> > the ability to produce limited audio.) >> >> Interesting. Had to Google that. Sounds fun! > >I've gotten docs scanned and put up on bitsavers; the memory-mapped >registers for the graphics hardware and sound port (basically a PWM >analog line connected to the speaker in the monitor) are explained. FWIW, the DOS, Windows, and OS/2 (but not Linux) variants of the latest Ersatz-11 release include emulation of the Terak video (but not audio). Also the QX: floppy (SSSD) but not QB: (soon!). www.dbit.com. The Terak "ALIEN" game (like Space Invaders but sideways) is very much an '80s home computer kind of thing... John Wilson D Bit From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 13:45:48 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:45:48 +0000 Subject: Elektronika BK - Soviet PDP-11 compatible - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F2ECFD.4010209@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F2ECFD.4010209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 13 January 2013 17:21, Toby Thain wrote: > On 13/01/13 9:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> ... >> An alternative: what was the Russian home computer which was >> PDP-compatible? >> > > BK Elektronika iirc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK That's the bunny. Interesting-sounding machine. I like the idea of an expensive, powerful 1970s minicomputer being shrunk down and metamorphosing into an inexpensive, somewhat-low-powered home micro. It reminds me a little of what I still thought was the creative genius of the original Amstrad PCW range. Just as PC-compatible x86 machines and DOS took over the world, Amstrad created a last, high-spec, highly-integrated, cheap powerful CP/M box: a single unit with CPU, big RAM disk, floppy drive, screen & printer, all in one box, immediately usable straight out of the packaging. I used to wonder why they or someone didn't do the same with a 386 and DOS as Windows rose into the ascendant. When a decent Windows machine with a 486 was still ?1000+, you could have assembled a kick-ass 386-powered DOS box for a quarter of that price. Too similar, I guess. No USP. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 15:03:43 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:03:43 -0800 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2013, at 10:58 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Liam Proven writes: > >> On 12 January 2013 21:40, Richard wrote: >>> Compare the sound and graphics hardware present on the spectrum to >>> that present on a PDP-11, i.e. none. >> >> Well, fair point, but then again, I was addressing the angle of >> whether a PDP could possibly have the CPU power & storage needed. I >> think that vid suggests the answer could be "yes" /on that front./ > > Yes, it does serve as an interesting data point that shows how much > DOOM you can cram into a little machine :-). > >>> The closest stock unit I can think of that has enough hardware to be >>> comparable to an 80s home/gaming microcomputer is the Terak. (It has >>> the ability to produce limited audio.) >> >> Interesting. Had to Google that. Sounds fun! > > I've gotten docs scanned and put up on bitsavers; the memory-mapped > registers for the graphics hardware and sound port (basically a PWM > analog line connected to the speaker in the monitor) are explained. > >> An alternative: what was the Russian home computer which was >> PDP-compatible? > > That could be another interesting alternative. > >> I find myself quite intrigued by the possibility of a PDP/11 with >> graphics. That would be something I would quite like to play with. > > A bunch of DEC's early graphics "terminals" were indeed just that. > The GT40, GT62, etc., were all machines with a PDP-11 as the graphics > controller and a dynamic refresh display. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). Were there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped framebuffer? On the other hand, the QVAF-512 board does provide a hardware "vector generator" that could be used to provide a fairly speedy wireframe rendering of a DOOM-like game :). - Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 13 15:11:49 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:11:49 -0500 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> On 01/13/2013 04:03 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color > graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think > it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen > updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a > graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is > drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). That sounds like serious fun anyway! > Were > there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped > framebuffer? Yes, the AED 512 and 767 have a Qbus interface that (I believe) uses DMA, in addition to the standard RS232 port. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 13 15:15:11 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:15:11 -0500 Subject: N8VEM PCBs remaining Message-ID: <002b01cdf1d3$12e25a30$38a70e90$@YAHOO.COM> Hi There are 11 S-100 LAVA PCBs and 8 XT-IDE V2 PCBs remaining in case anyone is looking for them. Please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM for more information. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 15:15:07 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:15:07 +0000 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 13 January 2013 21:03, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 15:32:48 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:32:48 -0800 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 13 January 2013 21:03, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). > > Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I > thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. Then prepare to have your mind blown: http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Matrox/ALT256/ALT256.htm (1978) - Josh > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 13:11:00 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: The PDP-9 will now execute the built-in diagnostic described section 3.7.7.3 of the maintenance manual. This diag copies the contents of the AR register go through the ADR to increment the value, then to the MB register and then back to the AC, AR, and PC registers. This means that much of the I/O bus logic, the CP timing, the registers, the ADR, and the Control Memory is working. Now we need to fix the core memory controller and start debugging the rest of the processor and I/O. -- Michael Thompson From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 16:03:57 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:03:57 -0200 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7EF4713FC99A4963AC9441C28D7BECB1@tababook> > Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I > thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. MeToo? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 13 16:16:58 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:16:58 +0000 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F3325A.3000700@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/01/2013 21:32, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Jan 13, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I >> thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. I was about to reply when I read Josh's response... > Then prepare to have your mind blown: http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Matrox/ALT256/ALT256.htm ...because I have a pair of those, and at least one other model. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Jan 13 16:29:24 2013 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:29:24 -0600 Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F33544.3080703@ubanproductions.com> Very cool! There was a PDP-9 at Purdue University back in the day. What is the origin of the machine which is being restored at the RICM? On 1/13/13 1:11 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The PDP-9 will now execute the built-in diagnostic described section > 3.7.7.3 of the maintenance manual. This diag copies the contents of > the AR register go through the ADR to increment the value, then to the > MB register and then back to the AC, AR, and PC registers. This means > that much of the I/O bus logic, the CP timing, the registers, the ADR, > and the Control Memory is working. Now we need to fix the core memory > controller and start debugging the rest of the processor and I/O. > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 16:33:38 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:33:38 -0800 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> On 1/13/2013 1:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/13/2013 04:03 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color >> graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think >> it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen >> updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a >> graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is >> drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). > > That sounds like serious fun anyway! Yeah. I need to do some un-modification to the boards before they'll work properly. They were modified for use at the University of Rochester for capturing images of some sort of laser application (the QRGB-GRAPH does frame grabbing as well as display) and seeing as how I'm unlikely to own such a laser at any point in the future, it's not of much use as is :). Fortunately I have the specs for the modifications so it should be easy to undo (or redo if I do come across a high-powered laser I need to take photos of.). > >> Were >> there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped >> framebuffer? > > Yes, the AED 512 and 767 have a Qbus interface that (I believe) uses > DMA, in addition to the standard RS232 port. Cool. And I misspoke -- the QRGB-GRAPH does support DMA, so it might be fast enough for DOOM after all :). - Josh > > -Dave > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 17:20:07 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:20:07 -0200 Subject: DOOM References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F3325A.3000700@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <6D5795504ECA477CA4ED1DB6E42B241D@tababook> >>> Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I >>> thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. >> Then prepare to have your mind blown: >> http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Matrox/ALT256/ALT256.htm Very interesting...There are companies that are so old, and we don't know/remember. It is always interesting to see where they came from, what were their first products, and so on... From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 18:07:46 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:07:46 -0800 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> , <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F34C52.4000203@gmail.com> On 1/13/2013 1:55 AM, tony duell wrote: >>>> It is almost working (and the few rubber parts in it seem to be good) -- >>> I would strongly recomend replacing the 2 'tyres' on the drive wheels. They're >>> size 119 O-rings IIRC, and are not hard to get. >> Good to know. The ones that are in there seem to be in good shape, >> they're still pretty rubbery and aren't degrading into goo like >> everything in the 9810 did. But I'll need to replace them at some >> point, I'm sure. > That's a fairly easy repair, at least once the drive is apart... I've ordered some replacements along with some O-rings for the mag card reader. >>> I assume the solenoid isn't burnt out ... >> I will definitely be checking that. I need to trace the wires back to >> where they connect to the logic board first. > On the 9830, the tape drive has 4 little 'plugs' (PCBs with pins), one for the motors, > one for the optosensor, one for the solenoids/microswitches and one for the > preamp PCB. The 9865 may be different. In any case, tracing 2 wires can't > be hard :-) Nope, just hadn't taken the time to do it yet :). > > If there is 09864-66564 PCB in there, the the solenoids are connected between > pins on that board (open-collector stages on the board) to +12V. Shouldn't > be hard to check. Spent some time debugging last night and narrowed it down to a faulty transistor (Q8 on the schematic, for those keeping score at home). I've ordered a replacement and hopefully that'll get everything humming again. Thanks again for the help, Josh > > -tony > From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 13 18:24:50 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:24:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM drive "is offline. Mount verification in progress." Message-ID: <201301140024.r0E0OoBv31195154@floodgap.com> Okay, VAX heads. I got an external SCSI cable for my VAXstation 3100 M76 and connected it to my old Apple SCSI CD-ROM that boots pretty much anything in my collection (Apple, SGI, you name it). At the chevron prompt, >>> b/r5:10000000 dkb500: -DKB500 [...] OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 [...] PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM): 13-JAN-2013 16:14 [...] %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, DKB500: is offline. Mount verification in progress. It just sits there. So I tried it without the /r5 bit: >>> b dkb500: -DKB500 [...] OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 [...] PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM): 13-JAN-2013 16:20 Configuring devices . . . Available device: DKB500: device type SONY CD-ROM CDU-8 Available device: DKA0: device type RZ26 %BACKUP-I-IDENT, Stand-alone BACKUP V7.2; the date is 13-JAN-2013 16:21:06.64 $ So far so good. $ BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY DKB500:VMS073.B/SAVE_SET DKA0: %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, SABKUP$DKB500: is offline. Mount verification in progress. And sits there again. What am I doing wrong? (Don't say use another CD-ROM drive; this one works perfectly with every other computer I've used it with. And why would it boot from it but not install from it?) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Twenty-four hours in a day, twenty-four cans in a Pepsi cube. Coincidence? - From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 13 18:47:04 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 17:47:04 -0700 Subject: DOOM (was: FS. Working PDP 11/83 deskside case (UK)) In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Josh Dersch writes: > I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color > graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. [...] If you ever lose interest in them, they'd be a good addition to the Computer Graphics Museum. I have several Qbus machines that could house the boards. > [...] Were there any PDP-11 > graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped framebuffer? The Terak is setup this way. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 13 19:16:26 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:16:26 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <50F33642.5070405 at gmail.com>, Josh Dersch writes: > On 1/13/2013 1:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Were > >> there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped > >> framebuffer? > > > > Yes, the AED 512 and 767 have a Qbus interface that (I believe) uses > > DMA, in addition to the standard RS232 port. > > Cool. And I misspoke -- the QRGB-GRAPH does support DMA, so it might be > fast enough for DOOM after all :). See However, DMA != memory-mapped. Memory-mapped means the pixel changes as soon as I diddle the bits and the next refresh cycle comes around. Memory-mapped means the CPU can determine the contents of a pixel by reading a memory location. DMA means a chunk of host memory can be transmitted to the device while the CPU is doing some other task. The AED 512/617/1024 can interface to a host machine by means of a parallel interface with DMA capability. While this is certainly faster than using a serial interface and an ASCII command stream, it is by no means as fast as a memory-mapped display. There is no abaility for the AED to send data back to the host over the DMA interface, it is unidirectional. The above PDF says the bandwidth is 3 MB/s across the DMA interface. At 800x600 256 color VGA mode, refreshed at 30 Hz, DOOM uses: 800*600*30/1024/1024 = 13 MB/sec I believe DOOM actually goes at 60 Hz, not 30, so it's even worse. However, 30 Hz is generally considered the minimum for interactive real-time graphics. Assuming using the maximum 3 MB/sec bandwidth of the AED and 4 bits/pixel instead of 8, gives you enough bandwidth to do 512x384 (4:3 aspect ratio). The AED actually stores 8bpp, so I'd have to dig further into the docs to see if you could transmit 4bpp and have it locally expand that to 8; you probably can with some downloaded microcode (i.e. 6502 assembly language). That's a calculation based purely on the DMA speed listed in the document, you'd have to do an actual end-to-end analysis to see how fast you could update the AEd from a Qbus PDP-11; the DMA transfer rate may not be the limiting factor. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jan 13 19:51:24 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:51:24 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/01/13 8:16 PM, Richard wrote: > ...you'd have to do an actual end-to-end analysis to see > how fast you could update the AEd from a Qbus PDP-11; the DMA transfer > rate may not be the limiting factor. You'd have to halve the rate in any case since the CPU would take an equal amount of time doing memory cycles to update it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the frame *computation* would be concurrent with the DMA but updates from the CPU would be sharing the bus, interleaved with individual DMA cycles, and you couldn't feasibly do block DMA (because of that concurrency). It seems to me this isn't a very natural fit for DMA? --Toby From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 13 19:52:32 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 17:52:32 -0800 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F364E0.4050307@bitsavers.org> On 1/13/13 1:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, the AED 512 and 767 have a Qbus interface that (I believe) uses DMA, in addition to the standard RS232 port. > The spinoff QBus products from Jupiter Systems or Parallax Graphics would probably work. Frame buffer access in the AED wasn't very fast. Digging around, I'm not seeing much of any info on Parallax on the web. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jan 13 20:16:01 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:16:01 -0500 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F36A61.1090009@compsys.to> >Josh Dersch wrote: >I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). Were there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped framebuffer? > Do you have a manual for the QRGB-GRAPH board. I think I sent a copy to Al a while back when I could not find it on bitsavers, but perhaps not. By the way, Matrox is probably over 40 years old and is located near Montreal, Quebec. They originally made graphics cards for systems like the PDP-11, but dropped them long ago when the demand dried up. Jerome Fine From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 20:20:10 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:20:10 -0500 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> <50ECFC24.2070300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I think it's rather nifty. If it *is* designed to the original spec, it probably took a lot of work. It also seems fairly sturdily made - two pounds at 13"x5"x1". Look up Adam Savage's work trying to make a perfect replica of the Maltese Falcon from the film. It took him years to even get close, and he's a professional model maker with connections in Hollywood. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 13 20:30:15 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:30:15 -0500 Subject: Anyone want to buy a Hal 9000? In-Reply-To: References: <201301090230.r092UO1M25493532@floodgap.com> <50ECFC24.2070300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50F36DB7.5010100@neurotica.com> On 01/13/2013 09:20 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > I think it's rather nifty. If it *is* designed to the original spec, it > probably took a lot of work. It also seems fairly sturdily made - two > pounds at 13"x5"x1". Look up Adam Savage's work trying to make a perfect > replica of the Maltese Falcon from the film. It took him years to even get > close, and he's a professional model maker with connections in Hollywood. Sounds to me like people gettin' paid by the hour. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 13 21:15:05 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:15:05 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F364E0.4050307@bitsavers.org> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F364E0.4050307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <50F364E0.4050307 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > The spinoff QBus products from Jupiter Systems or Parallax Graphics would > probably work. Frame buffer access in the AED wasn't very fast. I have a Jupiter Systems terminal in the collection. > Digging around, I'm not seeing much of any info on Parallax on the web. I didn't get any manuals, so information on programming would be most appreciated. Otherwise I'm going to have to dump the ROMs and reverse engineer the code. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 21:26:27 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:26:27 -0800 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F37AE3.8020002@gmail.com> On 1/13/2013 5:16 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <50F33642.5070405 at gmail.com>, > Josh Dersch writes: > he standard RS232 port. >> Cool. And I misspoke -- the QRGB-GRAPH does support DMA, so it might be >> fast enough for DOOM after all :). > See > > > However, DMA != memory-mapped. Sure, never meant to imply that the two were equal, just that it had an interface significantly faster than manually pushing each pixel. > > Memory-mapped means the pixel changes as soon as I diddle the bits and > the next refresh cycle comes around. Memory-mapped means the CPU can > determine the contents of a pixel by reading a memory location. > > DMA means a chunk of host memory can be transmitted to the device > while the CPU is doing some other task. The AED 512/617/1024 can > interface to a host machine by means of a parallel interface with DMA > capability. While this is certainly faster than using a serial > interface and an ASCII command stream, it is by no means as fast as a > memory-mapped display. There is no abaility for the AED to send data > back to the host over the DMA interface, it is unidirectional. The > above PDF says the bandwidth is 3 MB/s across the DMA interface. > > At 800x600 256 color VGA mode, refreshed at 30 Hz, DOOM uses: > > 800*600*30/1024/1024 = 13 MB/sec > > I believe DOOM actually goes at 60 Hz, not 30, so it's even worse. > However, 30 Hz is generally considered the minimum for interactive > real-time graphics. I think the original DOOM was limited to 35fps no matter what. > > Assuming using the maximum 3 MB/sec bandwidth of the AED and 4 bits/pixel > instead of 8, gives you enough bandwidth to do 512x384 (4:3 aspect ratio). > The AED actually stores 8bpp, so I'd have to dig further into the docs > to see if you could transmit 4bpp and have it locally expand that to > 8; you probably can with some downloaded microcode (i.e. 6502 assembly > language). That's a calculation based purely on the DMA speed listed > in the document, you'd have to do an actual end-to-end analysis to see > how fast you could update the AEd from a Qbus PDP-11; the DMA transfer > rate may not be the limiting factor. I'd expect any implementation to run in a postcard-sized area (much like you'd do with Doom on a 386sx-16 back in the day). Pushing an 800x600 display wasn't something I'd even considered, and I don't think I'd ever expect such a beast to run at anywhere near 30fps (much like the 386). A 256x256 window at 8bpp at 15fps is ~1mb/sec. That's still a fair amount of time just spent pushing pixels, though so it's probably still not feasible. - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 21:59:21 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:59:21 -0800 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F36A61.1090009@compsys.to> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F36A61.1090009@compsys.to> Message-ID: <50F38299.60206@gmail.com> On 1/13/2013 6:16 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Josh Dersch wrote: > >> I have a set of Matrox QRGB-GRAPH (and QVAF-512) boards (Q-Bus color >> graphics for the PDP-11) which I have yet to play with. I don't think >> it'd be a good candidate for anything that requires rapid full-screen >> updates, though -- in particular there's no facility for blitting a >> graphics region from the -11 to the graphics memory (everything is >> drawn on a pixel-by-pixel basis through a set of registers). Were >> there any PDP-11 graphics systems that actually had a memory-mapped >> framebuffer? >> > Do you have a manual for the QRGB-GRAPH board. I think > I sent a copy to Al a while back when I could not find it on > bitsavers, but perhaps not. Looks like it's here: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/matrox/ I do have the manual sets for these, including the QVAF-512 which does not appear to be on bitsavers. I also have a pile of floppies that I need to archive, though I think they are mostly the custom software that U of Rochester used for their laser system. - Josh > > By the way, Matrox is probably over 40 years old and is located > near Montreal, Quebec. They originally made graphics cards > for systems like the PDP-11, but dropped them long ago when > the demand dried up. > > Jerome Fine > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 13 22:52:39 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:52:39 -0800 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F364E0.4050307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50F38F17.1040809@bitsavers.org> On 1/13/13 7:15 PM, Richard wrote: > I have a Jupiter Systems terminal in the collection. > > > I didn't get any manuals, so information on programming would be most > appreciated. Otherwise I'm going to have to dump the ROMs and reverse > engineer the code. > A Jupiter 7 is very similar to the AED 767 Jupiter is still in business, BTW. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 23:15:14 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:15:14 -0200 Subject: CD-ROM drive "is offline. Mount verification in progress." References: <201301140024.r0E0OoBv31195154@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <95E03E39E135496BB9BA212DCF772ABD@tababook> I have no VAX whatsoever experience to help, but have you tried that famous jumper that changes from 2048 to 512 bytes/sector? Usually helps :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:24 PM Subject: CD-ROM drive "is offline. Mount verification in progress." > Okay, VAX heads. I got an external SCSI cable for my VAXstation 3100 M76 > and > connected it to my old Apple SCSI CD-ROM that boots pretty much anything > in > my collection (Apple, SGI, you name it). At the chevron prompt, > >>>> b/r5:10000000 dkb500: > > -DKB500 > [...] > OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 > [...] > PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM): 13-JAN-2013 16:14 > [...] > %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, DKB500: is offline. Mount verification in progress. > > It just sits there. So I tried it without the /r5 bit: > >>>> b dkb500: > > -DKB500 > [...] > OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 > [...] > PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM): 13-JAN-2013 16:20 > > Configuring devices . . . > > Available device: DKB500: device type SONY CD-ROM > CDU-8 > > Available device: DKA0: device type RZ26 > %BACKUP-I-IDENT, Stand-alone BACKUP V7.2; the date is 13-JAN-2013 > 16:21:06.64 > $ > > So far so good. > > $ BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY DKB500:VMS073.B/SAVE_SET DKA0: > %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, SABKUP$DKB500: is offline. Mount verification in > progress. > > And sits there again. What am I doing wrong? (Don't say use another CD-ROM > drive; this one works perfectly with every other computer I've used it > with. > And why would it boot from it but not install from it?) > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Twenty-four hours in a day, twenty-four cans in a Pepsi cube. > Coincidence? - From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 13 23:39:53 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:39:53 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F39A29.3020201@brouhaha.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Blimey. I am astounded. I had no idea Matrox went so far back. I > thought of them as a PC graphics-card company. Josh Dersch wrote: > Then prepare to have your mind blown: > http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Matrox/ALT256/ALT256.htm That page says "This was the board that launched the Matrox company.", and the Matrox web site says the same thing, but both are wrong. (I wonder whether the Matrox people copied a web source for their own history?) AFAIK, the first Matrox product was the MTX-1632, introduced in 1976, about two years before the ALT-256. It's a 16 line by 32 character display module with a generic interface rather than a specific bus such as S-100. There's a blurb in the "What's New?" column of the October 1976 byte, on page 89. Matrox announced a number of other generic text and graphic display modules prior to introducing any S-100 products. I just corrected a false claim on the Matrox Wikipedia stating that the ALT-256 used a "racing the beam" technique similar to the Atari 2600. It actually had an entirely conventional 8KB frame buffer. Whoever wrote that may have been confused because the frame buffer isn't memory-mapped, but is instead written using a set of four output ports and one input port for status. An 8080 (or even a Z80) at that time was not fast enough to "race the beam" at a 256 pixel-per-line resolution. Other interesting early Matrox products were the MTX-A1 and MBX-B1 display/keyboard controller chips. They were 40-pin NMOS chips. I think they may have been mask-programmed Intel 8041 UPI chips, but I haven't found data sheets on them for comparison. Eric From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 00:26:25 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 23:26:25 -0700 Subject: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F38F17.1040809@bitsavers.org> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F364E0.4050307@bitsavers.org> <50F38F17.1040809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <50F38F17.1040809 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 1/13/13 7:15 PM, Richard wrote: > > > I have a Jupiter Systems terminal in the collection. > > > > > > > I didn't get any manuals, so information on programming would be most > > appreciated. Otherwise I'm going to have to dump the ROMs and reverse > > engineer the code. > > > > A Jupiter 7 is very similar to the AED 767 > > Jupiter is still in business, BTW. My experience is that when I contact companies asking about distant legacy products, they never bother to return my email. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jan 14 01:15:49 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 02:15:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EABAD0.3070006@update.uu.se> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...]; the DMA transfer rate may not be the limiting factor. > You'd have to halve the rate in any case since the CPU would take an > equal amount of time doing memory cycles to update it? Maybe. Depends on what limits "the DMA transfer rate". In general, it's possible, depending on the memory subsystem, that DMA out of memory does not interfere with CPU access to memory unless they are accessing locations too close to one another (eg, the same 32-bit line of memory). Also possible is that the memory bus is enough faster than both the DMA path and the CPU path that, while they can collide over it, it can sustain both data streams at once without trouble. I don't know enough of PDP-11 memory subsystems to know whether either of those is true of any of them, though. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 14 02:11:37 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:11:37 +0000 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: <50F34C52.4000203@gmail.com> References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> , <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> , <50F34C52.4000203@gmail.com> Message-ID: > >> Good to know. The ones that are in there seem to be in good shape, > >> they're still pretty rubbery and aren't degrading into goo like > >> everything in the 9810 did. But I'll need to replace them at some > >> point, I'm sure. > > That's a fairly easy repair, at least once the drive is apart... > > I've ordered some replacements along with some O-rings for the mag card > reader. What are you doing about the card reader? My repair involves machining a new roller hub from brass rod. It works, but you need a small lathe to do it. At least with the cassette drive, O-rings were the original 'tyres' so you don't have to modify any parts to fit new ones. > > If there is 09864-66564 PCB in there, the the solenoids are connected between > > pins on that board (open-collector stages on the board) to +12V. Shouldn't > > be hard to check. > > Spent some time debugging last night and narrowed it down to a faulty > transistor (Q8 on the schematic, for those keeping score at home). I've > ordered a replacement and hopefully that'll get everything humming again. > I assume (without checking the schematics) that's one of the solenoid drivers. I looked at the schematic the other day and noticed that if the motor is running correctly (so the motor switching transistor is being driven), the only things that can cause the solenoid not to work are the driver transistor or the solenoid itself. I have tried to send you the Datafile (HPCC magazine) articles. Let me know if there are any problems. -tony From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Mon Jan 14 03:48:24 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 01:48:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics References: Message-ID: <1358156904.76010.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- In article <1357986577.45360.YahooMailNeo at web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, Tom Sparks writes: >I've talked to the webgl community about this, and their reply was it could >be done, without a reference sorry reference [1] >? Are you looking to just reproduce the look or are you also wanting to > reproduce the technology used back then? I just want to reproduce the look i've found a program called REND386 v5[2] (DOS based) it dose not support texture mapping and only works @ 320x200 (mode 13h) but it can load in PLG files[3] its a start in the right direction for my model I am looking at doing * Isometric projection * objectvr[4] * at a later date I may use webgl > If just the former, it's not hard at all, since you're simply using > existing technology in a lower fidelity mode. its not that easy as it seams a lot of the styling needs to be done using a Shading Language witch is only support on some newer graphics cards >-- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum >The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) [1] https://www.khronos.org/webgl/public-mailing-list/archives/1206/msg00162.html [2] http://www.cob.unt.edu/slides/VEDDER/Temp/AI/REND386/ best to download with a website reaper [3] http://paulbourke.net/dataformats/plg/ note: the FIG and WLD information is out of date [4] http://gardengnomesoftware.com/object2vr_example.php?demo=multires --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks? From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Jan 14 04:10:25 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:10:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1358158225.2195.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hey Michael, that's fantastic !!! A team at the ACONIT-museum in Grenoble (France) did a great job and restored a PDP-9 a couple of years ago. Hans Pufal was part of that team. When I visited the museum, he told me that the machine broke down again. I wonder what the status of that system is, currently, and what Hans has become. Haven't heard anything from/about him for a very long while. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ----- Urspr?ngliche Message ----- > Von: Michael Thompson > An: cctech > CC: > Gesendet: 20:11 Sonntag, 13.Januar 2013 > Betreff: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM > >T he PDP-9 will now execute the built-in diagnostic described section > 3.7.7.3 of the maintenance manual. This diag copies the contents of > the AR register go through the ADR to increment the value, then to the > MB register and then back to the AC, AR, and PC registers. This means > that much of the I/O bus logic, the CP timing, the registers, the ADR, > and the Control Memory is working. Now we need to fix the core memory > controller and start debugging the rest of the processor and I/O. > > -- > Michael Thompson > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 14 07:49:09 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:49:09 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/01/13 2:15 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> [...]; the DMA transfer rate may not be the limiting factor. >> You'd have to halve the rate in any case since the CPU would take an >> equal amount of time doing memory cycles to update it? > > Maybe. Depends on what limits "the DMA transfer rate". In general, > it's possible, depending on the memory subsystem, that DMA out of > memory does not interfere with CPU access to memory unless they are > accessing locations too close to one another (eg, the same 32-bit line Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises the bus. Admittedly it's a few years since I studied Qbus in detail. Maybe I'll go hit the books again. I still have hope of making bus cycles from an FPGA. --Toby > of memory). Also possible is that the memory bus is enough faster than > both the DMA path and the CPU path that, while they can collide over > it, it can sustain both data streams at once without trouble. > > I don't know enough of PDP-11 memory subsystems to know whether either > of those is true of any of them, though. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jan 14 10:31:23 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:31:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50EAF6E3.60701@compsys.to> <20130107210643.5e8a7b7e4bc7ad9f02491c62@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> In general, it's possible, depending on the memory subsystem, that >> DMA out of memory does not interfere with CPU access to memory >> unless they are accessing locations too close to one another (eg, >> the same 32-bit line [...] > Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises > the bus. I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, >> I don't know enough of PDP-11 memory subsystems to know whether >> either of those is true of any of them, though. Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory? None of them have memory directly on the CPU card (or, if they do, still generate Qbus cycles)? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 10:42:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:42:58 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> On 01/14/2013 11:31 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> In general, it's possible, depending on the memory subsystem, that >>> DMA out of memory does not interfere with CPU access to memory >>> unless they are accessing locations too close to one another (eg, >>> the same 32-bit line [...] >> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >> the bus. > > I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, > >>> I don't know enough of PDP-11 memory subsystems to know whether >>> either of those is true of any of them, though. > > Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory? None of them have memory directly on > the CPU card (or, if they do, still generate Qbus cycles)? Unibus PDP-11s don't use Qbus memory. ;) And several PDP-11 CPU cards have onboard memory. The ones that use PMI don't (AFAIK) generate Qbus cycles for memory access. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 11:18:14 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:18:14 -0700 Subject: Contacting Tony Eros (was: University of Delaware EE department machine history) In-Reply-To: <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90@machm.org> References: <1FBFF108-3109-49B6-8C0C-65134F6E2E90@machm.org> Message-ID: Sorry to bug the list with this, but it appears somewhere along the way my email to Tony is being discarded/filtered. Tony: I sent you a 2nd followup mail, but didn't see a reply; did you get it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 11:33:42 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:33:42 -0700 Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: <1358156904.76010.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1358156904.76010.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1358156904.76010.YahooMailNeo at web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, Tom Sparks writes: > > Are you looking to just reproduce the look or are you also wanting to > > reproduce the technology used back then? > I just want to reproduce the look OK, then you need to decide which "look" you want to reproduce. Are you specifically trying to reproduce the visual look from REND386, or just using that as a reference point? > for my model I am looking at doing > * Isometric projection This is trivial. > * objectvr[4] This is also trivial. From looking at the URL you gave for [4], it's just picture flipping a bunch of pictures taken at different viewpoints relative to the object. You don't even need a graphics card for this, it's just picture flipping. > * at a later date I may use webgl Why webgl, are you trying to make something that is browser based? > > If just the former, it's not hard at all, since you're simply using > > existing technology in a lower fidelity mode. > its not that easy as it seams a lot of the styling needs to be done using a > Shading Language > witch is only support on some newer graphics cards Shader based graphics cards are the norm for the past decade, so hardly only available on "newer" graphics cards. OGL even provides a software fallback. However, don't assume that because people are showing you how to do something in a shader that the only way to do it is in a shader. The last generation of fixed-function pipeline cards (i.e. 10+ year old cards) were capable of a variety of effects if you were creative in how you use the hardware. I would agree that it's simpler to develop the effect now with a shader than to try and figure out complex multitexture fixed-function effects. If you get something like ATI's RenderMonkey or NVidia's FX Composer, you can evaluate the shaders interactively on a model without having to do edit-compile-test cycles. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 14 12:02:00 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:02:00 +0000 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130109194540.5d4133b8c88005429a98e777@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/01/2013 16:42, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >>> the bus. >> >> I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, Mouse is right. >> Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory? None of them have memory directly on >> the CPU card (or, if they do, still generate Qbus cycles)? > > Unibus PDP-11s don't use Qbus memory. ;) Except for 11/84 and 11/94 ;-) 11/53 and 11/93 (and /94) have memory on the CPU but can also access QBus and PMI memory. QBus devices can access that as if it were on a separate card. > And several PDP-11 CPU cards > have onboard memory. The ones that use PMI don't (AFAIK) generate Qbus > cycles for memory access. Yes, they do. PMI just adds some extra control signals which are passed over the CD interconnect. Several normal QBus control signals are also used, as of course are the BDAL lines. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 12:30:42 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:30:42 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> On 01/14/2013 01:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory? None of them have memory directly on >>> the CPU card (or, if they do, still generate Qbus cycles)? >> >> Unibus PDP-11s don't use Qbus memory. ;) > > Except for 11/84 and 11/94 ;-) > > 11/53 and 11/93 (and /94) have memory on the CPU but can also access > QBus and PMI memory. QBus devices can access that as if it were on a > separate card. I maintain that a Qbus PDP11 with a Unibus adapter isn't *just* a Qbus PDP11. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Jan 14 13:26:23 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:26:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Jumper settings / docs on AVIV qbus card needed Message-ID: <1358191583.65926.YahooMailNeo@web133103.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Dear community, I dropped over an AVIV card (model number 50-860), which seem to be a qbus tape-controller for drives with GCR-encoding. Two 50pin pin connectors typically used for PERTEC-systems are sitting on the front. Except for thirdy or so shops, google does not show up anything about this board. Bitsavers does not contain any AVIV-related documents, either. Does anybody have docs or at least jumper specifications of this board? That would be of great help in order to make use of it ! Kind regards and thanks in advance, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 14 13:28:21 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:28:21 +0000 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F45C55.4070901@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/01/2013 18:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/14/2013 01:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>>> Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory? None of them have memory directly on >>>> the CPU card (or, if they do, still generate Qbus cycles)? >>> >>> Unibus PDP-11s don't use Qbus memory. ;) >> >> Except for 11/84 and 11/94 ;-) >> >> 11/53 and 11/93 (and /94) have memory on the CPU but can also access >> QBus and PMI memory. QBus devices can access that as if it were on a >> separate card. > > I maintain that a Qbus PDP11 with a Unibus adapter isn't *just* a Qbus > PDP11. ;) I'm pretty sure we can agree on that :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 14:08:40 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:08:40 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software Message-ID: I'm collecting together all the X terminal software (servers, configuration files, manuals, etc). I have this old snapshot of the FTP site for ncd.com: I'm looking for more. I don't have the X terminal software for X terminals from: - DEC - HP - Tektronix If anyone can help me collect this together into one place, that would be great. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wilson at dbit.com Mon Jan 14 14:47:16 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:47:16 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> References: <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130114204716.GA16351@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 01:30:42PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: >I maintain that a Qbus PDP11 with a Unibus adapter isn't *just* a Qbus >PDP11. ;) Nah it's more than that -- it's a hilarious joke for screwing with the minds of I/O drivers, which detect the UMRs and think they're on a mapped system but then it turns out that RH70s aren't the only thing using unmapped DMA, but there's no sure way to know what's Q and what's U. Fun for all concerned! :-) John Wilson D Bit From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 14:52:35 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:52:35 -0500 Subject: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <20130114204716.GA16351@dbit.dbit.com> References: <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F44ED2.3070200@neurotica.com> <20130114204716.GA16351@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <50F47013.6050607@neurotica.com> On 01/14/2013 03:47 PM, John Wilson wrote: >> I maintain that a Qbus PDP11 with a Unibus adapter isn't *just* a Qbus >> PDP11. ;) > > Nah it's more than that -- it's a hilarious joke for screwing with the minds > of I/O drivers, which detect the UMRs and think they're on a mapped system > but then it turns out that RH70s aren't the only thing using unmapped DMA, > but there's no sure way to know what's Q and what's U. > > Fun for all concerned! :-) Yee-HAW! Err somethin'. ;) That's ok. I love my 11/84s anyway. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 15:30:32 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:30:32 -0500 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Richard wrote: > I'm collecting together all the X terminal software (servers, configuration > files, manuals, etc). I have this old snapshot of the FTP site for > ncd.com: > > > > I'm looking for more. I don't have the X terminal software for X > terminals from: > > - DEC > - HP I have an HDS X term that I got working a long time ago with software I found on an open FTP server at MIT. I'll check the model number and see what ancient hard drive contains my copy of the software (probably my old SPARC5 that hasn't been powered on in about 6 years). -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 14 15:15:53 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:15:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D78DAC.6090705@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 23, 12 03:03:08 pm Message-ID: My home intenrnet connection seems to be back for the momnet.... > > Well, I guess I am somethign of an HP calcualtor collector (although > > nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_ them. My > > 16C lives on my electornics workbench. > > If it were to be a workbench calculator, I'd want a nice TI SR-22. I am not clever enough to use a non-stack-based calcualtor, so it virtually has ot be an HP in my case. The 16C has all the functions I need on the electronics bench, line ANDs, ORs, rotates, etc. > However, I imagine that the collectors have driven the price of this > never-common calculator to somewhere in the stratosphere. That certainly applies to the HP16C... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 14 15:19:33 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:19:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: <50D78E2F.90508@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 23, 12 06:05:19 pm Message-ID: > > And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated with cutting oil and metal > > swarf? My HP calcualtorss don't seem to mind :-) > > Gads, man! Take better care of those HPs! They don't grow on trees, > and prices have gone through the roof. :-( THey're HPs... They don't seem to mind :-) Mote seriously, I do look adter my old HPS. Darn it, I write the repair instructions fo HP desktop machines so they can be kept going. But also I sue them. And the older HPs, with goid-plated keyboard contacts, dual-shot-moulded keycaps, and the like do not seem to me the odd splash of cutting oil. More modern HMs with membran keyboards (like your 28) probably don't last as well... > > (my beloved 28S just lost functionality in a few of its keys...) I bought the first 28C I saw. I stopped using it when the HP48 came out (yes, I bought hte firsto ne of those I saw too). The reason was that the 28 didn't ahve any way to back up your programws. The 48 has a serial port and kermit. -tony From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 14 15:52:43 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:52:43 -0600 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: <50D78DAC.6090705@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 23, 12 03:03:08 pm Message-ID: <00ad01cdf2a1$7b7230b0$72569210$@com> > However, I imagine that the collectors have driven the price of this > never-common calculator to somewhere in the stratosphere. That certainly applies to the HP16C... -tony HP16C on ebay http://www.ebay.com/ctg/HP-16C-Scientific-Calculator-/92889141 $250 HP 12C on ebay http://compare.ebay.com/like/160941451346?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes &var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y&bigimg=y starting at $29 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 14 16:06:51 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:06:51 -0600 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale Message-ID: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ 25 cents each, can anybody use these? Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 16:11:02 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:11:02 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > I have an HDS X term that I got working a long time ago with software > I found on an open FTP server at MIT. I'll check the model number and > see what ancient hard drive contains my copy of the software (probably > my old SPARC5 that hasn't been powered on in about 6 years). Great! I have a list of these HDS terminals to add to the terminals wiki: HDS Viewstation TR HDS Viewstation FX HDS Viewstation FX HDS ViewStation FX HDS ViewStation+ HDS ViewStation HDS 2200GX These are already on the wiki: But none of those are X Terminals. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 16:14:56 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:14:56 -0800 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Richard wrote: > > I'm looking for more. I don't have the X terminal software for X > terminals from: > > - DEC > - HP > - Tektronix ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/infoserver The OpenVMS freeware InfoServer software file infoserver.zip contains the CD-ROM image file VTX Software V2.1, InfoServer/VMS, ag-pjjhh-be.img I believe that contains the software for the VT1000 (VXT1000), VT1200 (VXT1200), VT1300 (VXT1300), and the VXT2000 and VXT2000+ series. That's what I used to get my VXT2000 running. -Glen From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jan 14 16:21:50 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:21:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> Message-ID: <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* (though it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing around w/a homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. Applicable? ________________________________ From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ 25 cents each, can anybody use these? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 16:23:11 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:23:11 -0500 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Ethan Dicks writes: > >> I have an HDS X term that I got working a long time ago with software >> I found on an open FTP server at MIT. I'll check the model number and >> see what ancient hard drive contains my copy of the software (probably >> my old SPARC5 that hasn't been powered on in about 6 years). > > Great! > > I have a list of these HDS terminals to add to the terminals wiki: > HDS Viewstation... I think I have either a ViewStation or ViewStation+ Sadly, there was at one point a publicly-accessible repository (as indexed by several FTP search engines) at ftp//ftp.psc.edu/tftp/hds/, but that appears to be gone now. Anyone get a mirror of that when it was up? -ethan From jonathan at pueblo.co.uk Mon Jan 14 16:23:34 2013 From: jonathan at pueblo.co.uk (Jonathan Casiot) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:23:34 +0000 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F48566.8060200@pueblo.co.uk> On 14/01/2013 21:30, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Richard wrote: >> I'm collecting together all the X terminal software (servers, configuration >> files, manuals, etc). I have this old snapshot of the FTP site for >> ncd.com: >> >> >> >> I'm looking for more. I don't have the X terminal software for X >> terminals from: >> >> - DEC >> - HP > > I have an HDS X term that I got working a long time ago with software > I found on an open FTP server at MIT. I'll check the model number and > see what ancient hard drive contains my copy of the software (probably > my old SPARC5 that hasn't been powered on in about 6 years). > > -ethan > I'm running an HP Entria II from a CentOS box. Links to downloads of Netstation 7.1 and 9.0 can be found in this post: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2012-April/132126.html -- Jonathan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 16:26:56 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:26:56 -0500 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 5:06 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ > > 25 cents each, can anybody use these? I don't need thousands of them, but I really could use a handful for an existing LCD panel that presently has a OTP chip with AT&T firmware that needs to be replaced. That's presuming they are pin-compatible with the AT39F512. I don't care about in-circuit reprogrammability (which is a likely difference between the AT39 and AT49-series chips). I'd be programming these in a desktop programmer and installing them. What's the smallest quantity you'd consider shipping? -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jan 14 16:35:13 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:35:13 -0600 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> There 156 pcs on a tray, abt 1200 pcs per sealed package. The 1200 pcs is the minimum order. General purpose flash memory. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tofu Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: cheap flash RAM for sale it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* (though it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing around w/a homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. Applicable? ________________________________ From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ 25 cents each, can anybody use these? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 16:35:24 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:35:24 -0500 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50F4882C.8080005@neurotica.com> On 01/14/2013 05:21 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. > > Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* > (though it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing > around w/a homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. > Applicable? Oh, I'd love to have a few hundred of those. I'd use 'em for *everything*. I have no need for 187,200 of them, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 16:44:02 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:44:02 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Glen Slick writes: > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > I'm looking for more. I don't have the X terminal software for X > > terminals from: > > > > - DEC > > - HP > > - Tektronix > > ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/infoserver > > The OpenVMS freeware InfoServer software file infoserver.zip contains > the CD-ROM image file VTX Software V2.1, InfoServer/VMS, > ag-pjjhh-be.img > > I believe that contains the software for the VT1000 (VXT1000), VT1200 > (VXT1200), VT1300 (VXT1300), and the VXT2000 and VXT2000+ series. > That's what I used to get my VXT2000 running. Sweet! Got that copied over. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From bryan.pope at comcast.net Mon Jan 14 17:01:01 2013 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:01:01 -0500 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> Message-ID: <50F48E2D.4020408@comcast.net> The description says "on trays and in sealed packages of 156 pieces" and "a total of 1,200 packages". Doesn't this mean that the minimum would be 156 pieces? Also 156 x 1200 = 187,200 which is what you say the total number of pieces is. So then 156 pieces would be $39.00 (156 x $0.25). Cheers, Bryan P.S. If you were to buy 1200 pcs then you would get 7.69 trays. Unless you expect to sell all 1,200 trays at once. On 1/14/2013 5:35 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > There 156 pcs on a tray, abt 1200 pcs per sealed package. The 1200 pcs is > the minimum order. > General purpose flash memory. > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:22 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: cheap flash RAM for sale > > it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. > > Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* (though > it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing around w/a > homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. Applicable? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > > > http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ > > 25 cents each, can anybody use these? > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 17:04:25 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:04:25 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > Sadly, there was at one point a publicly-accessible repository [...] Yeah, that's why I'm collecting this in one place. It seems like X terminals would still be usable these days and unlike a PC they often have no noisy fan. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 17:06:46 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:06:46 -0500 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> Message-ID: <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> Oh, $300 for 1200 chips. I can spring for $75 (after the beginning of Feb) for 1/4 of those. Anyone want to go in on it? -Dave On 01/14/2013 05:35 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > There 156 pcs on a tray, abt 1200 pcs per sealed package. The 1200 pcs is > the minimum order. > General purpose flash memory. > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:22 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: cheap flash RAM for sale > > it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. > > Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* (though > it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing around w/a > homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. Applicable? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > > > http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ > > 25 cents each, can anybody use these? > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13 > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 17:26:25 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:26:25 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: <50F48566.8060200@pueblo.co.uk> References: <50F48566.8060200@pueblo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <50F48566.8060200 at pueblo.co.uk>, Jonathan Casiot writes: > Links to downloads of Netstation 7.1 and 9.0 can be found in this post: > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2012-April/132126.html Got the 9.0, but the 7.1 link appears dead? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 17:27:45 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:27:45 -0500 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Ethan Dicks writes: > >> Sadly, there was at one point a publicly-accessible repository [...] > > Yeah, that's why I'm collecting this in one place. I was able to scrape a list of what files _were_ there from the links from one of the index sites. That list would at least be handy to see if anything is missing/different from any version that eventually turns up (including the repo I probably still have). > It seems like X terminals would still be usable these days and unlike > a PC they often have no noisy fan. I remember playing with my HDS Viewstation as a terminal to my SPARC5 when I used that every day at home (quite some time ago) and I do remember that not everything I ran worked perfectly (Netscape gave me some fits, IIRC). It was fine for opening up scads of Xterms, but I think I occasionally ran into an application that was newer than the version of X on the HDS and something wasn't quite right (possibly related to available fonts, now that I'm thinking about it). Something I'd like to try now is HDS + LCD (since it was definitely HDS + CRT last time). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 17:39:01 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:39:01 -0500 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F49715.2050108@neurotica.com> On 01/14/2013 06:27 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Sadly, there was at one point a publicly-accessible repository [...] >> >> Yeah, that's why I'm collecting this in one place. > > I was able to scrape a list of what files _were_ there from the links > from one of the index sites. Try The Wayback Machine, maybe? It has saved my butt a few times. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jan 14 17:39:56 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:39:56 -0600 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F4974C.3000905@jbrain.com> On 1/14/2013 5:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh, $300 for 1200 chips. I can spring for $75 (after the beginning of > Feb) for 1/4 of those. Anyone want to go in on it? Assuming one does not need to buy the entire 1200 tray lot, I am happy to buy 5000 - 10000 and sell off by tray for those interested. I use similar at49F001 for my EPROM eliminators, and I just used my last tray of ICs for the last manufacturing order. Jim From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Mon Jan 14 17:47:12 2013 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:47:12 -0700 Subject: HP 12c References: Message-ID: In case some may noy know, there is the HP16C Emulator: http://www.hp16c.net/ "The HP16C Emulator will operate under Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista and Win 7. " Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 02:15 PM Subject: Re: HP 12c > My home intenrnet connection seems to be back for the momnet.... > >> > Well, I guess I am somethign of an HP calcualtor collector (although >> > nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_ them. >> > My >> > 16C lives on my electornics workbench. >> >> If it were to be a workbench calculator, I'd want a nice TI SR-22. > > I am not clever enough to use a non-stack-based calcualtor, so it > virtually has ot be an HP in my case. The 16C has all the functions I > need on the electronics bench, line ANDs, ORs, rotates, etc. > > >> However, I imagine that the collectors have driven the price of this >> never-common calculator to somewhere in the stratosphere. > > That certainly applies to the HP16C... > > -tony > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 18:20:41 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:20:41 -0800 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: <50F48566.8060200@pueblo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2013 3:29 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > > Links to downloads of Netstation 7.1 and 9.0 can be found in this post: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2012-April/132126.html > > Got the 9.0, but the 7.1 link appears dead? I have Netstation Software Release 9.1, July 1998, Multi-Host CD-ROM. It has CDs for both 7.1 and 9.1. I should create images of the 3 CD set to send to you. -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 18:29:00 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:29:00 -0700 Subject: Wanted: X Terminal software In-Reply-To: References: <50F48566.8060200@pueblo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article , Glen Slick writes: > I have Netstation Software Release 9.1, July 1998, Multi-Host CD-ROM. It > has CDs for both 7.1 and 9.1. > > I should create images of the 3 CD set to send to you. Sweet! If you could email me a URL where I could pick them up, that would be great. Alternatively, I can provide an ftp dropoff area, assuming my XMission account has enough space. We can also do snail mail. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jan 14 18:33:13 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:33:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <50F4974C.3000905@jbrain.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> <50F4974C.3000905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <201301150033.TAA21358@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Oh, $300 for 1200 chips. I can spring for $75 (after the beginning >> of Feb) for 1/4 of those. Anyone want to go in on it? > Assuming one does not need to buy the entire 1200 tray lot, I am > happy to buy 5000 - 10000 and sell off by tray for those interested. I'd like to get hold of some of those - I'm thinking probably one package of 156 - if a "bulk buy and parcel out" happens. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 14 18:44:15 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:44:15 -0800 Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F4A65F.9050402@sydex.com> On 01/14/2013 03:47 PM, Keven Miller (rtt) wrote: > In case some may noy know, > there is the HP16C Emulator: > > http://www.hp16c.net/ > > "The HP16C Emulator will operate under Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows > Vista and Win 7. " There is a big difference--the real 16C has real keys and can slip into a pocket. A set of batteries lasts for years (figure on 7-10 years per set). There's also the Swiss guy with his credit-card sized 16C with a membrane keyboard--too small for my old eyes. But no *real* 16Cs kicking around cheap. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 14 18:57:34 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:57:34 -0800 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50F4A97E.8020905@sydex.com> On 01/14/2013 03:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Oh, $300 for 1200 chips. I can spring for $75 (after the beginning of > Feb) for 1/4 of those. Anyone want to go in on it? TSOP and 5V only? Too bad they don't have a 3.3V mode. I can't think of a practical use for myself. If I working with 5V, most of my inclination is toward through-hole DIPs and such. Even PLCC would be more useful. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 19:18:01 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:18:01 -0800 Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: References: <50EFB8A4.7060608@gmail.com> <50F0E8A6.20301@gmail.com> <50F34C52.4000203@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:11 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > >> Good to know. The ones that are in there seem to be in good shape, > > >> they're still pretty rubbery and aren't degrading into goo like > > >> everything in the 9810 did. But I'll need to replace them at some > > >> point, I'm sure. > > > That's a fairly easy repair, at least once the drive is apart... > > > > I've ordered some replacements along with some O-rings for the mag card > > reader. > > What are you doing about the card reader? My repair involves machining a > new > roller hub from brass rod. It works, but you need a small lathe to do it. > I did find your documented method when looking for options, but I lack access to a lathe to do it. I've ordered some matching O-rings (with a square cross-section) which hopefully will work. If not, they cost me next to nothing :). > > At least with the cassette drive, O-rings were the original 'tyres' so you > don't have > to modify any parts to fit new ones. > Yes, that looks like a simple repair. > > > > If there is 09864-66564 PCB in there, the the solenoids are connected > between > > > pins on that board (open-collector stages on the board) to +12V. > Shouldn't > > > be hard to check. > > > > Spent some time debugging last night and narrowed it down to a faulty > > transistor (Q8 on the schematic, for those keeping score at home). I've > > ordered a replacement and hopefully that'll get everything humming again. > > > > I assume (without checking the schematics) that's one of the solenoid > drivers. Yes, that's correct. > I looked at the schematic the other day and noticed that if the > motor is running correctly (so the motor switching transistor is being > driven), the only things that can cause the solenoid not to work are > the driver transistor or the solenoid itself. > > I have tried to send you the Datafile (HPCC magazine) articles. Let > me know if there are any problems. > Thanks, received those and I'll be going through them tonight. Thanks! - Josh > > -tony > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 19:21:05 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:21:05 -0500 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <50F4A97E.8020905@sydex.com> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> <50F4A97E.8020905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > TSOP and 5V only? Too bad they don't have a 3.3V mode. Oh... I missed that... don't need TSOP. I need a small number of 512Kbit PLCC. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 14 19:33:01 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:33:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> <50F4A97E.8020905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> TSOP and 5V only? Too bad they don't have a 3.3V mode. > > Oh... I missed that... don't need TSOP. I need a small number of > 512Kbit PLCC. urmm.. and I'm looking for DIP. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Mon Jan 14 10:19:04 2013 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Steve Merrony) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:19:04 +0000 Subject: Data General MV/2500 Documentation Message-ID: <50F42FF8.40605@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Does anyone have any MV/2500 docs that I could have a copy of? Or MV/2000 for that matter - they are very similar. I have just got hold of an MV/2500 which needs plenty of TLC to get it running again. Website and blog at http://stephen.homedns.org/dg/ Steve -- /Stephen Merrony / From david at classiccomputing.com Mon Jan 14 14:36:21 2013 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:36:21 -0500 Subject: The VCFSE 1.0 Message-ID: Everyone, We have finalized the show dates for the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 and now it will be over two days - Saturday & Sunday, April 20 & 21, 2013. I will have a press release soon and we have some very nice things planned. I hope some of you can attend the show! Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Writer, Podcaster & Speaker - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 4/20 & 4/21, 2013 http://about.me/davidgreelish From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 19:37:26 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:37:26 -0500 Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: > From: Tom Uban > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:29:24 -0600 > Subject: Re: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM > Very cool! There was a PDP-9 at Purdue University back in the day. What > is the origin of the machine which is being restored at the RICM? This one came from Max Levy Autograph inf Philadelphia, PA. Details are here: https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9 -- Michael Thompson From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 14 20:53:56 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:53:56 -0500 Subject: QBus cycles - Re: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/01/13 1:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 14/01/2013 16:42, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>>> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >>>> the bus. >>> >>> I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, > > Mouse is right. Can you give me a reference on that or more detail? --Toby > >>> Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory?... From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 14 20:55:03 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:55:03 -0500 Subject: Data General MV/2500 Documentation In-Reply-To: <50F42FF8.40605@stephenmerrony.co.uk> References: <50F42FF8.40605@stephenmerrony.co.uk> Message-ID: <50F4C507.10007@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/01/13 11:19 AM, Steve Merrony wrote: > Does anyone have any MV/2500 docs that I could have a copy of? Or > MV/2000 for that matter - they are very similar. Try contacting Bruce Ray at Wild Hare. http://www.novasareforever.org/preserve.htm --Toby > > I have just got hold of an MV/2500 which needs plenty of TLC to get it > running again. > > Website and blog at http://stephen.homedns.org/dg/ > > Steve From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jan 14 20:47:59 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:47:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" Message-ID: eBay seller id "tvrsales" is currently selling property STOLEN from the Vintage Computer Festival. If you are planning on buying anything of a vintage computer nature from eBay seller "tvrsales" in Stockton, California, please know that you are most likely BIDDING ON STOLEN PROPERTY. The VCF Archives were STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling (eBay ID "tvrsales") in cahoots with the landlords of the building where it was sold. The sordid tale can be read about through lawsuit material already on my website for download: http://vintagetech.com/download/lawsuit/ I encourage everyone to read through the letters and especially the affidavit to see the absolute criminality of these vultures. I am continuing to upload more material as I have time, but the basic story is there. The court system was absolutely useless, as were the police and sheriff. I am having to sue for conversion, fraud, racketeering, unjust enrichment, and probably other charges as I continue my research. I am here to tell you right now: Anyone on the receiving end of my stolen property is going to be entangled in this mess one way or another. Therefore, my suggestion to you is that YOU SHOULD NOT BID ON OR BUY ANYTHING FROM TRI-VALLEY RECYCLING IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA. If you do end up with my stuff, you will become a part of the lawsuit in some way. So if you don't want to have legal issues to deal with, stay away from anything they are selling. I think I have made myself redundantly clear here. The full story will come out in time. Right now I'm re-grouping for my next legal attack. Yes, I could use assistance, especially if you have a law background and can do research for me. Sure, I could use money, so send some if you got it. I don't need attorneys. Attorneys are useless in the capacity that I am acting. I'm doing this the proper way: myself. My entire career as a computer historian has been destroyed by these hyenas. Now I have to sit here and watch as they auction off 25 years of my life's work piece by piece. Don't be caught in the frenzy when the lion shows up. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 21:36:47 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:36:47 -0700 Subject: HP terminals In-Reply-To: <01c501cdbd37$18a88280$49f98780$@com> References: <01c501cdbd37$18a88280$49f98780$@com> Message-ID: In article <01c501cdbd37$18a88280$49f98780$@com>, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" writes: > There are 5 HP 700/96 terminals with keyboards. The keyboards are complete. > > 1 of the terminals has significant screen burn in white mode, but not in > black mode. > > 4 terminals come up crisp and bright white, no screen burn, no scratched > glass. > > Cases are very dirty right now, but I can clean them. > > Make offer? Prefer to ship within the US; I don't know how well these will > do going overseas. I'm in Salt Lake City, UT 84106. How about two for $50 each? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jan 14 21:44:09 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:44:09 -0500 Subject: QBus cycles - Re: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.a u> Message-ID: <50F4D089.3020801@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/01/13 9:53 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 14/01/13 1:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 14/01/2013 16:42, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>>>> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >>>>> the bus. >>>> >>>> I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, >> >> Mouse is right. > > Can you give me a reference on that or more detail? Oh, never mind, I see that we are all three in agreement. It's pretty clear from the 2nd page of the spec. "Only one device has control of the bus at any one time." --Toby > > --Toby > >> >>>> Do all PDP-11s use Qbus memory?... > From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 21:47:41 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:47:41 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F4D15D.8030602@gmail.com> On 1/14/2013 6:47 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > eBay seller id "tvrsales" is currently selling property STOLEN from the > Vintage Computer Festival. > > If you are planning on buying anything of a vintage computer nature from > eBay seller "tvrsales" in Stockton, California, please know that you are > most likely BIDDING ON STOLEN PROPERTY. > I am sure you already know this but, you face an uphill battle in San Joaquin county. It's not anywhere I would want to go up against a landlord or even go to court. Maybe contact the recycler and offer them something for all your stuff back. If it was the bay area you might find a friendly judge. No such thing in the central valley. From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jan 14 22:25:26 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:25:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items Message-ID: The follow items listed for sale on eBay are STOLEN from the Vintage Computer Festival Archives: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOS-Technology-KIM-1-Single-Board-Computer-Revision-G-Commodore-/261153725976?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccdf99e18 http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Factory-Sealed-Scrapyard-Dog-Video-Game-Atari-7800-CX7879-Cartridge-/251210844702?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item3a7d554a1e http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Commodore-Amiga-A-500-Personal-Home-Computer-Box-Power-Ada-ter-Software-/261153601499?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdf7b7db http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Atari-1040STF-1040ST-W-Power-on-Mouse-Box-Computer-System-PC-/251212039098?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3a7d6783ba http://www.ebay.com/itm/National-Semiconductor-ISP-8P-301N-SC-MP-Low-Cost-Development-Microcomputer-/261153711922?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdf96732 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Cromemco-CS-1-System-One-Computer-W-Manual-TU-ART-Interface-Rare-/261154123784?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdffb008 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ohio-Scientific-Challenger-8P-Computer-Rare-Power-on-C8POF-/261153977710?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdfd756e http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NorthStar-Horizon-Z-80A-Computer-Rare-W-Wooden-Cabinet-Case-North-Star-/251212423423?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3a7d6d60ff http://www.ebay.com/itm/IMSAI-PCS-80-10-S-100-Rare-Cromemco-Blitz-Computer-80-10-MITS-Altair-8800-8080-/261155719700?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3cce180a14 These items have been reported to eBay as stolen. An open lawsuit for conversion, fraud, and racketeering has been filed in San Joaquin County Superior Court and these items are the subject of that lawsuit. Any sales from eBay seller "tvrsales" (Tri-Valley Recycling, Stockton, California) will be traced and any buyers added as defendants to the suit. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 14 23:12:05 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:12:05 -0800 Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So let me get this right, you failed to pay your rent, you failed to get legal representation, arrogantly choosing to represent yourself. As a result your property was seized for failure to pay, and then sold to Tri-Valley Recycling. Now you're threatening anyone that chooses to do business with Tri-Valley Recycling? You've lost any credibility you once had. You can't threaten the very people that could give this material a safe home for the poor decisions you've made. Not to mention I have to think that Tri-Valley now has every right to take you to court for Slander. There is an old saying, the person that chooses to represent himself in court, has a fool for a client. Zane At 8:25 PM -0800 1/14/13, Sellam Ismail wrote: >The follow items listed for sale on eBay are STOLEN from the Vintage >Computer Festival Archives: > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOS-Technology-KIM-1-Single-Board-Computer-Revision-G-Commodore-/261153725976?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccdf99e18 >http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Factory-Sealed-Scrapyard-Dog-Video-Game-Atari-7800-CX7879-Cartridge-/251210844702?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item3a7d554a1e >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Commodore-Amiga-A-500-Personal-Home-Computer-Box-Power-Ada-ter-Software-/261153601499?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdf7b7db >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Atari-1040STF-1040ST-W-Power-on-Mouse-Box-Computer-System-PC-/251212039098?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3a7d6783ba >http://www.ebay.com/itm/National-Semiconductor-ISP-8P-301N-SC-MP-Low-Cost-Development-Microcomputer-/261153711922?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdf96732 >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Cromemco-CS-1-System-One-Computer-W-Manual-TU-ART-Interface-Rare-/261154123784?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdffb008 >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ohio-Scientific-Challenger-8P-Computer-Rare-Power-on-C8POF-/261153977710?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3ccdfd756e >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NorthStar-Horizon-Z-80A-Computer-Rare-W-Wooden-Cabinet-Case-North-Star-/251212423423?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3a7d6d60ff >http://www.ebay.com/itm/IMSAI-PCS-80-10-S-100-Rare-Cromemco-Blitz-Computer-80-10-MITS-Altair-8800-8080-/261155719700?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3cce180a14 > >These items have been reported to eBay as stolen. > >An open lawsuit for conversion, fraud, and racketeering has been filed in >San Joaquin County Superior Court and these items are the subject of that >lawsuit. Any sales from eBay seller "tvrsales" (Tri-Valley Recycling, >Stockton, California) will be traced and any buyers added as defendants to >the suit. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail VintageTech >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com > >Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 14 23:29:35 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 00:29:35 -0500 Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 12:12 AM Subject: Re: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items > So let me get this right, you failed to pay your rent, you failed to get > legal representation, arrogantly choosing to represent yourself. As a > result your property was seized for failure to pay, and then sold to > Tri-Valley Recycling. Now you're threatening anyone that chooses to do > business with Tri-Valley Recycling? > It is a shame he lost his collection that probably took decades to collect, but I have to ask how does somebody with $500K or more (just a guess) in collectables easily sold on ebay lose it all over a few grand in rent? Its not like he didn't see this coming. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 14 23:36:37 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:36:37 -0800 Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:29 AM -0500 1/15/13, TeoZ wrote: >----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" >>So let me get this right, you failed to pay your rent, you failed >>to get legal representation, arrogantly choosing to represent >>yourself. As a result your property was seized for failure to pay, >>and then sold to Tri-Valley Recycling. Now you're threatening >>anyone that chooses to do business with Tri-Valley Recycling? > >It is a shame he lost his collection that probably took decades to >collect, but I have to ask how does somebody with $500K or more >(just a guess) in collectables easily sold on ebay lose it all over >a few grand in rent? Its not like he didn't see this coming. I have to agree, it is a shame, I hate to see it happen to anyone, in fact this reminds me of the mess with Jim Willing's collection. However, you're absolutely correct, there was a time when some of the collection should have been sacrificed for the greater good of the collection. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jan 14 23:49:38 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:49:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items Message-ID: Zane Healy, So you're saying you read my entire complaint, affidavit, all exhibits, and have applied your Solomon-like wisdom to the matter and have determined that my credibility is lost, I have committed slander, and I am a fool. Wow. Hey, maybe you should offer to represent Tri-Valley Recycling. They could really use your legal expertise. You seem to have it all figured out. Even if I never get my property returned, turning my back on this hobby and moving on will be easy thanks to people like you. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 15 00:08:02 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:08:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Zane Healy, > > So you're saying you read my entire complaint, affidavit, all exhibits, > and have applied your Solomon-like wisdom to the matter and have > determined that my credibility is lost, I have committed slander, and I am > a fool. For what it's worth, I read your PDFs on the matter. Has there been any correspondence from the other side you're able to show us? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 15 00:16:33 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:16:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items Message-ID: David, To answer your question: the truth of the matter is no. My affidavit contains their soul response: an illegible (legally invalid) notice to sell my property that came only after I noticed them of their deficiency in process and did not meet any of the statutory requirements and was undated (hence, illegible). As it was merely intended to cover their asses, it was not really a serious notice, as even when I exercised my right to reclaim my stuff per their notice they still refused. I will post that particular exhibit with the rest of the exhibits as soon as I can get them scanned. The landlords did finally respond to the complaint, which I received in the mail today. I'll scan and post that as well, for what it's worth. It's filled with stuff attorneys get paid to write. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Jan 15 02:41:27 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 00:41:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: creating old school 3D graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1358239287.25693.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > In article <1358156904.76010.YahooMailNeo at web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, > ? ? Tom Sparks writes: > >> > Are you looking to just reproduce the look or are you also wanting to >> > reproduce the technology used back then? >> I just want to reproduce the look > > OK, then you need to decide which "look" you want to reproduce.? Are > you specifically trying to reproduce the visual look from REND386, or > just using that as a reference point? I think both > >> for my model I am looking at doing >> * Isometric projection > > This is trivial. > >> * objectvr[4] > > This is also trivial.? From looking at the URL you gave for [4], it's > just picture flipping a bunch of pictures taken at different > viewpoints relative to the object.? You don't even need a graphics > card for this, it's just picture flipping. working out the best way to get these pictures, animation? > >> * at a later date I may use webgl > > Why webgl, are you trying to make something that is browser based? yes, it? a later date project, I want to allow full 6DOF of the models as well as objectvr's limited freedom > >> > If just the former, it's not hard at all, since you're simply > using >> > existing technology in a lower fidelity mode. >> its not that easy as it seams a lot of the styling needs to be done using a >> Shading Language >> witch is only support on some newer graphics cards > > Shader based graphics cards are the norm for the past decade, so hardly > only available on "newer" graphics cards.? OGL even provides a > software > fallback. > > However, don't assume that because people are showing you how to do > something in a shader that the only way to do it is in a shader. I was just asking could it be done > The > last generation of fixed-function pipeline cards (i.e. 10+ year old > cards) were capable of a variety of effects if you were creative in > how you use the hardware. > > I would agree that it's simpler to develop the effect now with a > shader than to try and figure out complex multitexture fixed-function > effects.? If you get something like ATI's RenderMonkey or NVidia's FX > Composer, you can evaluate the shaders interactively on a model > without having to do edit-compile-test cycles. i'l have look into downloading those programs (google here I come.....) > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > > ? ? The Computer Graphics Museum > ? ? ? ? The Terminals Wiki > ? Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 15 04:41:45 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 23:41:45 +1300 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? Message-ID: I've Retr0Brighted a handful of my computers in the past but now they seem to be regressing back to their original mellow yellow. This despite being kept in dark boxes. While UV seems to be essential for yellowing in the first place, perhaps it's not required for reyellowing/regression after a Retr0Bright treatment. Anyway I thought it was an interesting phenomenon worth sharing so I wrote an article on my experiences http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-01-15-retr0bright-only-temporary.htm Has anyone else observed this? Terry (Tez) From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Jan 15 05:06:32 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:06:32 +0100 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Terry Stewart wrote: > I've Retr0Brighted a handful of my computers in the past but now they > seem to be regressing back to their original mellow yellow. This > despite being kept in dark boxes. While UV seems to be essential for > yellowing in the first place, perhaps it's not required for > reyellowing/regression after a Retr0Bright treatment. > > Has anyone else observed this? > Wasn't it oxygen which bound with the bromium and UV helped that process? re, reiche From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 08:02:33 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:02:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I don't need attorneys. Attorneys are useless in the capacity that I am > acting. In all due respect, a pit-bull of an attorney is exactly what you DO need. But, however you do decide to proceed, I wish you the best of luck and a favorable outcome. -- From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 08:23:36 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:23:36 -0600 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <50F48E2D.4020408@comcast.net> References: <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <50F48E2D.4020408@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001501cdf32b$e7f21e00$b7d65a00$@com> I don't own these. I called the fellow on the website, and he said there are 156 per tray, 7 trays shrink wrapped per unit. So the minimum buy is 1 shrink wrapped unit of 7x156 pcs. Please call him direct to order; these are not mine. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Pope Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 5:01 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: cheap flash RAM for sale The description says "on trays and in sealed packages of 156 pieces" and "a total of 1,200 packages". Doesn't this mean that the minimum would be 156 pieces? Also 156 x 1200 = 187,200 which is what you say the total number of pieces is. So then 156 pieces would be $39.00 (156 x $0.25). Cheers, Bryan P.S. If you were to buy 1200 pcs then you would get 7.69 trays. Unless you expect to sell all 1,200 trays at once. On 1/14/2013 5:35 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > There 156 pcs on a tray, abt 1200 pcs per sealed package. The 1200 > pcs is the minimum order. > General purpose flash memory. > > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > AOL IM elcpls > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:22 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: cheap flash RAM for sale > > it looks like they're trying to sell them as a lot. > > Anyone know specifically what they were/could be used for? I *plan* > (though it doesn't mean it'll necessary happen) to start playing > around w/a homebrewed Coldfire system in the coming months. Applicable? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > > > http://www.pacificmicrotel.com/products/AT49F512-70TC/ > > 25 cents each, can anybody use these? > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: > 01/13/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: > 01/13/13 > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From tsg at bonedaddy.net Tue Jan 15 08:40:04 2013 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:40:04 -0500 Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130115144004.GJ4358@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * David Griffith [130115 01:11]: > On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Zane Healy, > > > > So you're saying you read my entire complaint, affidavit, all exhibits, > > and have applied your Solomon-like wisdom to the matter and have > > determined that my credibility is lost, I have committed slander, and I am > > a fool. > > For what it's worth, I read your PDFs on the matter. Has there been any > correspondence from the other side you're able to show us? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Indeed. The exhibits would be good to see. Todd From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 10:05:58 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:05:58 -0600 Subject: Apple Lisa Message-ID: <007201cdf33a$34ff6d20$9efe4760$@com> The Apple III is gone, but the Lisa is still here. Appears complete and in good condition, but does NOT power on. Keyboard is included. $125 takes it away, plus shipping. Since UPS killed the Z100 I shipped to California, I will pack VERY well in oversized box, so shipping will be a little higher because of the big box. Estimated shipping within the US on UPS ground is about $75, give or take. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 10:21:18 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:21:18 -0600 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics Message-ID: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 10:28:56 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:28:56 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> Message-ID: At 10:21 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell > >Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. > >Cindy Croxton Page not found. :-( I worked on Honeywell mainframes for a few years, so I must confess I'm curious to see the photo's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 10:39:16 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:39:16 -0600 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> Message-ID: <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> Please try taking off the s in https if the page does not open for you. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:29 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Honeywell terminals pics At 10:21 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell > >Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. > >Cindy Croxton Page not found. :-( I worked on Honeywell mainframes for a few years, so I must confess I'm curious to see the photo's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 10:45:51 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:45:51 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> Message-ID: Still no luck, I get a "sorry, that page was not found" error. Zane At 10:39 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >Please try taking off the s in https if the page does not open for you. > >Cindy Croxton >Electronics Plus >1613 Water Street >Kerrville, TX 78028 >(830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax >AOL IM elcpls > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy >Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:29 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Honeywell terminals pics > >At 10:21 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell >> >>Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. >> >>Cindy Croxton > >Page not found. :-( > >I worked on Honeywell mainframes for a few years, so I must confess I'm >curious to see the photo's. > >Zane > > > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Photographer | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| My flickr Photostream | >| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >| My Photography Website | >| http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Tue Jan 15 10:47:32 2013 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> how much of the collection were you able to save, seems like the pdf's indicate you did move quite a bit --- On Mon, 1/14/13, Sellam Ismail wrote: From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 15 10:48:05 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:48:05 +0000 Subject: QBus cycles - Re: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.! au> Message-ID: <50F58845.90401@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/01/2013 02:53, Toby Thain wrote: > On 14/01/13 1:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 14/01/2013 16:42, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>>>> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >>>>> the bus. >>>> >>>> I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, >> >> Mouse is right. > > Can you give me a reference on that or more detail? I can't remember where it is, but at least one of the QBus documents describing bus cycles details which signals are active at what times, including how and when a DMA request can be ack'd. It might be in one of the processor handbooks. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 15 10:52:09 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:52:09 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> Message-ID: <50F58939.4010707@bitsavers.org> On 1/15/13 8:21 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: try > http://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/ > stack of displaywriters on the middle left which model 327x is on the middle right? From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 10:56:20 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:56:20 -0600 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> Message-ID: <009f01cdf341$3e64a720$bb2df560$@com> Sorry, I forgot to make them public! Please try again? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:46 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Honeywell terminals pics Still no luck, I get a "sorry, that page was not found" error. Zane At 10:39 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >Please try taking off the s in https if the page does not open for you. > >Cindy Croxton >Electronics Plus >1613 Water Street >Kerrville, TX 78028 >(830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax >AOL IM elcpls > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy >Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:29 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Honeywell terminals pics > >At 10:21 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell >> >>Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. >> >>Cindy Croxton > >Page not found. :-( > >I worked on Honeywell mainframes for a few years, so I must confess I'm >curious to see the photo's. > >Zane > > > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Photographer | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| My flickr Photostream | >| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >| My Photography Website | >| http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: >01/15/13 > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: >01/15/13 -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 11:28:23 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 11:28:23 -0600 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <50F58939.4010707@bitsavers.org> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <50F58939.4010707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00b501cdf345$b885c580$29915080$@com> Sorry, I don't follow you. In photo 34, there are Displaywrites on the top left shelf, those are now gone. On the right hand side, the upside down monitor on the 2nd shelf is an ADDS terminal. There is a 3476 terminal, pn 38F7302/38F7300, that you can't see in the pics. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:52 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Honeywell terminals pics On 1/15/13 8:21 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: try > http://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/ > stack of displaywriters on the middle left which model 327x is on the middle right? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 11:29:41 2013 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:29:41 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The way that shady "recycling" outfits like this work is that they try to move stuff as quickly as possible and if they can't sell it almost immediately they WILL melt it down. While the fact that they're making even a token attempt to sell stuff whole means that they know the stuff is valuable, you can be pretty sure that if they can't sell the working systems on their first attempt, they WILL get scrapped. Thus, by encouraging people not to but this stuff, you are, in effect, condemning it to a firey death... Mike From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 11:36:59 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:36:59 -0500 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <00b501cdf345$b885c580$29915080$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <50F58939.4010707@bitsavers.org> <00b501cdf345$b885c580$29915080$@com> Message-ID: > Sorry, I don't follow you. It looks like a 3278 model 2. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 15 11:37:51 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:37:51 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <00b501cdf345$b885c580$29915080$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <50F58939.4010707@bitsavers.org> <00b501cdf345$b885c580$29915080$@com> Message-ID: <50F593EF.6040902@bitsavers.org> On 1/15/13 9:28 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Sorry, I don't follow you. It was clear from our phone conversation that we don't speak the same language. From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 11:43:30 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 11:43:30 -0600 Subject: Honeywell and HP terminals Message-ID: <00cb01cdf347$d4d88680$7e899380$@com> The OLD Honeywells and the HP 700/96 terminals have been sold. Qty 2 of the HDS7 terminals, not just 1 are left. If anybody knows the PN for the HDS7 keyboard, I might have matching ones here. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 11:42:07 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 15:42:07 -0200 Subject: Apple Lisa References: <007201cdf33a$34ff6d20$9efe4760$@com> Message-ID: <07F8B634F52B47DA911667F7C14ED127@tababook> > The Apple III is gone, but the Lisa is still here. > Appears complete and in good condition, but does NOT power on. > Keyboard is included. > $125 takes it away, plus shipping. I'm banging my head on the table... :'( From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 15 11:55:17 2013 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:55:17 -0500 Subject: Mindset Computer Corp collection... Message-ID: <50F59805.6000602@atarimuseum.com> Hi, I've had a lot of interest in the collection, but my time is running short so I need to sell this whole collection, I've lowered the price for everything - systems, expansion units, modules, boxed items, mice, joysticks, keyboards, software, developer binder and domain and more all for $4,000. First person who replies directly to me - curt(at)atarimuseum(dot)com gets it all, so email me and let me know, thanks... Curt From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 12:19:30 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:19:30 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <009f01cdf341$3e64a720$bb2df560$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> <009f01cdf341$3e64a720$bb2df560$@com> Message-ID: That worked. They look newer than the ones we used, but older than what the vendor used in class. Still neat to see. Thanks! Zane On Jan 15, 2013, at 8:56 AM, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" wrote: > Sorry, I forgot to make them public! Please try again? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:46 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Honeywell terminals pics > > Still no luck, I get a "sorry, that page was not found" error. > > Zane > > > > > At 10:39 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> Please try taking off the s in https if the page does not open for you. >> >> Cindy Croxton >> Electronics Plus >> 1613 Water Street >> Kerrville, TX 78028 >> (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax >> AOL IM elcpls >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy >> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:29 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Honeywell terminals pics >> >> At 10:21 AM -0600 1/15/13, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>> https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/Honeywell >>> >>> Pics of the Honeywell terminals, for those that asked. >>> >>> Cindy Croxton >> >> Page not found. :-( >> >> I worked on Honeywell mainframes for a few years, so I must confess I'm >> curious to see the photo's. >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | | Photographer | >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | My flickr Photostream | >> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >> | My Photography Website | >> | http://www.zanesphotography.com | >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: >> 01/15/13 >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: >> 01/15/13 > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 > > From bryan.pope at comcast.net Tue Jan 15 12:21:18 2013 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:21:18 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Wow. So if a burglar came into your house and stole all of your stuff, then it would be better for him the sell it instead melting it down for scrap. As least somebody can use it and the thief makes a small profit! Obviously I should not worry about the infinitely tiny detail that the stuff was stolen. I feel sooo much better now! Cheers, Bryan On 1/15/2013 12:29 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > The way that shady "recycling" outfits like this work is that they try > to move stuff as quickly as possible and if they can't sell it almost > immediately they WILL melt it down. While the fact that they're making > even a token attempt to sell stuff whole means that they know the > stuff is valuable, you can be pretty sure that if they can't sell the > working systems on their first attempt, they WILL get scrapped. Thus, > by encouraging people not to but this stuff, you are, in effect, > condemning it to a firey death... > > Mike > From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 12:28:58 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:28:58 -0600 Subject: Lisa pics Message-ID: <012101cdf34e$2f15d110$8d417330$@com> https://picasaweb.google.com/106111250846948401252/AppleLisa but it might be sold now Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From ball.of.john at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 12:47:47 2013 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:47:47 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I encourage everyone to read through the letters and especially the >affidavit to see the absolute criminality of these vultures. I am >continuing to upload more material as I have time, but the basic story is >there. > >The court system was absolutely useless, as were the police and sheriff. >I am having to sue for conversion, fraud, racketeering, unjust enrichment, >and probably other charges as I continue my research. > >I am here to tell you right now: Anyone on the receiving end of my stolen >property is going to be entangled in this mess one way or another. >Therefore, my suggestion to you is that YOU SHOULD NOT BID ON OR BUY >ANYTHING FROM TRI-VALLEY RECYCLING IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA. If you do end >up with my stuff, you will become a part of the lawsuit in some way. My interpretation is: tough noogies. You spent half a year not paying bills or trying in any possible way to relocate your belongings. It was excuse after excuse after excuse followed by backlash. If you considered these computers so valueable you should of been putting a LOT more effort into cramming it into a storage locker or a spare bedroom. Up here in Canada (I guess that's the key phrase because who knows just how much different the laws are but at least up here it's nationally accepted that....)if you don't pay the rent and you're that far due you can forget about whatever you left there. The landlord can switch the locks and now claim it as his own and the courts will laugh you out the door. Just because you decided to play lazy does not mean that we can't bid in fear of a pretty weak court case. If anything I advocate for more people to bid on it because we at least know it came from a reputable person. From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 15 13:09:12 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 11:09:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Message-ID: > My interpretation is: tough noogies. Your opinion is noted, ignorant as it is, based on assumptions, incomplete facts, and a callous disregard for and improper understanding of property rights (that apply equally in Canada as well as here in America, ancient law that goes back to the Magna Charta). I understand there are people like you, who will look at a situation like this and say stuff like, "tough noogies"(?) I realize you would probably say the same thing to your grandmother--damn the facts. You're the same type of people who believe it's OK to scam someone out of their property by intentionally withholding court notices they are required to send, then collude to deprive the rightful owner of any possible remedy because you know you have an insider in the court who will make everything work in your favor. I'm not concerned with people like you, inasmuch as I can avoid doing any business with you so that when things don't work out I can be guaranteed my rights will be observed and a business relationship can be wound down honorably and with integrity. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 13:46:56 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:46:56 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I lost over 10,000 5.25" floppy disks from a storage locker in Ottawa that way :( Yes, in this area, they chop the lock if you're even 24 hours late, no excuses.If you have been a long time customer you might get 72 hours, if you're lucky. >From his last message I'd say he does have a point on his side though,if the owner agreed to an arrangement then suddenly turned around and did this,then he has a case. But I also agree with other posters, he should have sold some of the collectionin order to save the rest of it, rather than lose it all, no matter who was right. Also agree with the comments here, there are tons of collectors, the postershould have been actively pursuing borrowing space from others, loaning,trading, etc. This was let go far too long. Although I do hope he gets most of it back. Dan. > From: ball.of.john at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:47:47 -0800 > > >I encourage everyone to read through the letters and especially the > >affidavit to see the absolute criminality of these vultures. I am > >continuing to upload more material as I have time, but the basic story is > >there. > > > >The court system was absolutely useless, as were the police and sheriff. > >I am having to sue for conversion, fraud, racketeering, unjust enrichment, > >and probably other charges as I continue my research. > > > >I am here to tell you right now: Anyone on the receiving end of my stolen > >property is going to be entangled in this mess one way or another. > >Therefore, my suggestion to you is that YOU SHOULD NOT BID ON OR BUY > >ANYTHING FROM TRI-VALLEY RECYCLING IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA. If you do end > >up with my stuff, you will become a part of the lawsuit in some way. > > My interpretation is: tough noogies. > > You spent half a year not paying bills or trying in any possible way to > relocate your belongings. It was excuse after excuse after excuse followed > by backlash. If you considered these computers so valueable you should of > been putting a LOT more effort into cramming it into a storage locker or a > spare bedroom. > Up here in Canada (I guess that's the key phrase because who knows just how > much different the laws are but at least up here it's nationally accepted > that....)if you don't pay the rent and you're that far due you can forget > about whatever you left there. The landlord can switch the locks and now > claim it as his own and the courts will laugh you out the door. > > Just because you decided to play lazy does not mean that we can't bid in > fear of a pretty weak court case. If anything I advocate for more people to > bid on it because we at least know it came from a reputable person. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 15 13:34:20 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 19:34:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 12c In-Reply-To: from "Keven Miller" at Jan 14, 13 04:47:12 pm Message-ID: > > In case some may noy know, > there is the HP16C Emulator: > > http://www.hp16c.net/ > > "The HP16C Emulator will operate under Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows > Vista and Win 7. " Look, if I had space for a PC on my workbench (or on top of the minicomputer I'm repairing, or...) then I am sure I could find soemthing to ru no it. The thing about a calculator is that it's small enough to go to the problem. I have no problems in fitting my 16C, or even a 48/49 in my toolkit, and of putting it on the bench, or on top of the unit I'm repairing or... That's quite apart from the fact that many calculator emulators display a picoture of the keyboard on the screen and expect you to use a moust to press the kleys, at least for the more exotic functions. A real clacualtor keyboard is a lot faster and easier to use. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 15 13:43:42 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 19:43:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9865A Cassette Memory service manual? In-Reply-To: from "Josh Dersch" at Jan 14, 13 05:18:01 pm Message-ID: > > What are you doing about the card reader? My repair involves machining a > > new > > roller hub from brass rod. It works, but you need a small lathe to do it. > > > > I did find your documented method when looking for options, but I lack It's also in the articles I sent you. > access to a lathe to do it. I've ordered some matching O-rings (with a One problem with having a reasoanble workshop is that you tend ot use it, and thus my memthods may not be generally applicable. Oh well... > square cross-section) which hopefully will work. If not, they cost me next > to nothing :). The original HP 'hubs' are plain, the have no flanges. The original rubber tyres were moulded onto them. I think any rings stretched over the original hubs are likely to slip off. Whether you could glue them in place I don't know. Isocyano acrullic hydro-coplymerising adhesives might be worth a shot. I did think, for making a platen roller, of making a mould and casting new tyres onto the original hub/spindle. In the case of the HP9800 card reader, you would ahve to remvoe the hubs (and you need a lathe/mill to make the puller tool to do this) and then make the mould, which agains would probalby need a lathe. So that's not a lot of good. > > > > > > > At least with the cassette drive, O-rings were the original 'tyres' so you > > don't have > > to modify any parts to fit new ones. > > > > Yes, that looks like a simple repair. It is, Again, the articles I sent include a step-by-step strip-down of the HP9830 tape drive, I thin kthe 9865 one is very similar. BAsically you have to rmeove the motor assembly (take off the rear bracked and the motors o nte beam just slide out. Then either fiddle the new rigns in palce, or remvoe the front panel, the circlip o nthe cassette spindle and the leaf spidng from the back of the drive wheel, and slide the spindle out. It takes longer to describe than to do. > > I have tried to send you the Datafile (HPCC magazine) articles. Let > > me know if there are any problems. > > > > Thanks, received those and I'll be going through them tonight. Thanks! I hope you find soem interesting information in there. -tony From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Jan 15 14:04:04 2013 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:04:04 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Bryan Pope wrote: > Wow. So if a burglar came into your house and stole all of your stuff, then it would be better for him the sell it instead melting it down for scrap. As least somebody can use it and the thief makes a small profit! > > Obviously I should not worry about the infinitely tiny detail that the stuff was stolen. I feel sooo much better now! Well, speaking as someone who had a storage area robbed and had to try salvaging my smashed-up equipment from a dumpster, at least the stuff would still exist somewhere. I would have at least a chance of getting it back later. It's not GOOD, but it's better than the alternative. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 15 14:20:49 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:20:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130115120941.J51786@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, John Ball wrote: > by backlash. If you considered these computers so valueable you should of > been putting a LOT more effort into cramming it into a storage locker or a > spare bedroom. spare bedroom??!? Can I move into your house? Maybe put my HOUSE into one of your spare bedrooms? Just the stuff that he hauled out from my closing office would fill three normal "spare bedroom"s. > about whatever you left there. The landlord can switch the locks and now > claim it as his own and the courts will laugh you out the door. > Just because you decided to play lazy does not mean that we can't bid in > fear of a pretty weak court case. If anything I advocate for more people to > bid on it because we at least know it came from a reputable person. He is contesting the "conversion", and making notice that he contends that it is "STOLEN" merchandise. Knowingly accepting stolen merchandise (if he should prevail) is, indeed, a crime. Accepting stolen merchandise UNknowingly is not a crime. However, if a court rules that it was stolen, then it must be returned to its rightful owner. Any purchaser who UNknowingly accepted the stolen merchandise is not entitled to compensation for the return to the rightful owner, and can merely attempt to collect back from the seller. OTOH, if it were to get purchased by a shill, he might be able to regain it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jan 15 13:47:15 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:47:15 -0600 Subject: Apple Lisa is sold Message-ID: <016a01cdf359$1ead3880$5c07a980$@com> The Apple Lisa has been purchased. Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6034 - Release Date: 01/15/13 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 15 14:43:11 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:43:11 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F5BF5F.8090901@brouhaha.com> John Ball wrote: > Up here in Canada (I guess that's the key phrase because who knows > just how much different the laws are but at least up here it's > nationally accepted that....)if you don't pay the rent and you're that > far due you can forget about whatever you left there. The landlord can > switch the locks and now claim it as his own and the courts will laugh > you out the door. In the US this is a matter of state law, which of course varies from state to state. In California, the landlord can NOT take simply possession of the tenant's belongings. The eviction process involves having the Sheriff seize the tenant's belongings. If the property is believed to be worth more than $700, it has to be sold at a public sale (auction) at a time and place published in a general circulation newspaper. I rather doubt that eBay qualifies. See California Civil Code section 1980-1991, especially section 1988. If the landlord takes possession of the belongings or disposes of them in a different manner than prescribed by law, it is theft, conversion, and/or unjust enrichment. [These are my personal opinions, which are worth exactly what you've paid for them. I am not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice.]// From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 15 14:41:40 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 09:41:40 +1300 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> References: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: > Wasn't it oxygen which bound with the bromium and UV helped that process? Yes, as far as I know that is correct, but I'd always assumed (maybe wrongly) that a reasonable amount of UV light was needed to facilitate this. Based on what's happened it may be that very little UV (if any) is needed. In the case of my Retr0Brighted cases....just a few days exposure per year under florescents (i.e. the time I had the computers out of the box to play with or test) seemed to be all that was needed. Merlin, in his writeup in the Retr0Bright wiki (http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com) does say even low levels from florescent lights is enough. I'd always assumed this was everyday exposure though. Perhaps with some plastics UV is not needed at all? I have heard of cases where people have put a shiny white computer in a sealed box for storage only to find a cheese-yellow artifact when they drag it out years later. There is something more puzzling. Let's assume yellowing can occur in the absence of much (or any) UV light. Why then are those cord markings on the Apple IIe and Vic 20 reappearing? You would have expected any further yellowing of my cases, even with low levels of UV, to be consistent across the case surface now the cords are not there. All surfaces would be exposed to equal amount of oxygen or brief light. However the cord impressions (which protected the plastic under them from initial yellowing) are re-appearing? The question I have in my mind therefore is "do the changes in the chemical structure cause by the initial yellowing (OR perhaps the RetroBrighting itself) make the plastic MORE prone to future 2BR.O co-ordinant bonds or/and migration of these to the surface of the case (hence causing yellowing)? " Or is something else going on? Whatever is happening, the practical implications are that even brief and very very low levels of UV seem to be enough to re-yellow retr0Brighted surfaces over time. There is not enough evidence in my case to say that UV is not needed AT ALL, as all the units had been exposed briefly a few times a year, to fluorescent light. Tez From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 14:57:29 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:57:29 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Message-ID: I'm confused by this case. I was under the assumption that anyone that doesn't pay their bills to a storage locker place faces forfeiture of the property that is stored there. At least that's how I remember the rental contract agreement I signed on the storage locker we rented when we relocated houses. It seems to also track with what seems to happen on "Storage Wars." I read the stuff, but I'm confused about how the rental company acted improperly, but it seems painfully clear that OP was several months behind on rent. Cliffs? On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Bryan Pope wrote: > Wow. So if a burglar came into your house and stole all of your stuff, > then it would be better for him the sell it instead melting it down for > scrap. As least somebody can use it and the thief makes a small profit! > > Obviously I should not worry about the infinitely tiny detail that the > stuff was stolen. I feel sooo much better now! > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > > On 1/15/2013 12:29 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > >> The way that shady "recycling" outfits like this work is that they try >> to move stuff as quickly as possible and if they can't sell it almost >> immediately they WILL melt it down. While the fact that they're making >> even a token attempt to sell stuff whole means that they know the >> stuff is valuable, you can be pretty sure that if they can't sell the >> working systems on their first attempt, they WILL get scrapped. Thus, >> by encouraging people not to but this stuff, you are, in effect, >> condemning it to a firey death... >> >> Mike >> >> > From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 15 14:46:14 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:46:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Message-ID: What some folks are missing is a sense of the timeline. This dragged out over 5 months, in which time I tried every possible way under the Sun to get access to the warehouse after I'd been inappropriately locked out (landlords failed to give proper, timely notice) including OFFERING TO PAY THE ENTIRE AMOUNT OF BACK RENT, the money of which was laid out on the counter of their secretary, counted in her hands, but was rejected after she called her bosses and was inexplicably instructed not to take the money. Read Uniform Commercial Code section 3-306(b) and then tell me I didn't pay them. This is all in my affidavit. I only went to court after I exhausted my private administrative remedies and the landlords began to threaten to sell my stuff, fully in violation of my rights and California statutes of which I thoroughly educated them. The landlords brought an insider to the court with them (as they did to every court appearance) who obviously helped throw the matter in their favor. Yes, yes, of course I'm going to say that, but if you only knew. Learning about the corruption in San Joaquin County courts is not difficult--google will tell you all (that is publicly available). What do you do when you're an outsider and you're up against an entire "good old boy" network? Never mind, don't think about it, it might hurt your fragile brains. All I can say is that when your options are to capitulate to someone's unlawful demands or else say bye bye to your life's work, what choice are you going to make? I was able to move out about 15-20% of the collection before being locked out again. Read the affidavit as to why I could not finish on time. Yes, it was my fault for not getting it all out in time--woulda/shoudla/coulda. Yes, I could have asked for help sooner. Yes, maybe I should have ignored the unchecked flooding in the warehouse that was destroying part of my documents collection and just continued to pack the loose items. Etc. However, I don't see how that negates my property rights, and anyone who has an accurate understanding of the law doesn't either. I know more about California commercial rental and property law than most attorneys now, so to those who want to pontificate lawyerly, please keep your uninformed opinions to yourself. I am, however, open to input from people who actually study law and can match or surpass my knowledge. My affidavit was never rebutted. An unrebutted affidavit stands as truth in the record. This is an ancient legal maxim. These guys have implicitly admitted their guilt. However, they have the shield of attorneys and insiders who know the judges well enough to sway the outcome in their favor. Yes, I understand: that only happens on TV, not in real life. Of course. While all this was going on, I was also fighting against my purported "mortgage lender" who was unlawfully foreclosing on my house, and was actively assisting others in a similar situation. I was supposed to be out of MY house last Tuesday, but a last minute bankruptcy filing has kept shelter over my and my families head--for now. I can comfortably say I didn't get much sleep last year. At least walk a few feet in my shoes if you can before you feel the urge to lecture me. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Jan 15 15:02:30 2013 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:02:30 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <470F6DF3-AADE-4B89-A7E5-AE530E2C54ED@xlisper.com> On Jan 15, 2013, at 2:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > But I also agree with other posters, he should have sold some of the collectionin order to save the rest of it, rather than lose it all, no matter who was right. Didn't Sellam try to do exactly that? He posted a message here a while ago offering to sell anything in his collection or maybe just things he had duplicates of. In any case, I think he *did* try to sell things to raise money. Maybe there just weren't enough willing buyers. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 15:12:48 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:12:48 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Message-ID: <992FB3A4-4586-41F0-9003-7D80C48E291E@aracnet.com> That is not how I took what Mike said, and he has a very valid point. Also we have seen no evidence that Tri-Valley stole anything, or that they are 'shady'. In reading through the *one* side of the story we have, it would appear that they were either sold the 'scrap', or else contracted to remove it. I have also noticed that Sellam references many documents that are missing, so even in his side of the story there are considerable holes. Something that worries me is what went into the dumpster that they apparently had on site. One also has to wonder how badly Sellam had pissed off the landlords prior to this point. Reading through the email and documents last night I was reminded of a conversation I'd had earlier in the night with my seven year old. As regrettable as it is, the choices he made had consequences. Zane On Jan 15, 2013, at 10:21 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: > Wow. So if a burglar came into your house and stole all of your stuff, then it would be better for him the sell it instead melting it down for scrap. As least somebody can use it and the thief makes a small profit! > > Obviously I should not worry about the infinitely tiny detail that the stuff was stolen. I feel sooo much better now! > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > On 1/15/2013 12:29 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: >> The way that shady "recycling" outfits like this work is that they try >> to move stuff as quickly as possible and if they can't sell it almost >> immediately they WILL melt it down. While the fact that they're making >> even a token attempt to sell stuff whole means that they know the >> stuff is valuable, you can be pretty sure that if they can't sell the >> working systems on their first attempt, they WILL get scrapped. Thus, >> by encouraging people not to but this stuff, you are, in effect, >> condemning it to a firey death... >> >> Mike > > From bryan.pope at comcast.net Tue Jan 15 15:13:40 2013 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:13:40 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <50F5C684.3050808@comcast.net> Are some people here suffering from short term memory loss?! A month and a half ago (12/1/2012) Sellam posted to cctalk that he was selling some of his collection: "The Vintage Computer Festival is currently securing funding for operations and storage of the VCF Archives for the next 6 months. As such, the VCF is conducting a limited sale of select items of the VCF Archives." Cheers, Bryan On 1/15/2013 2:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I lost over 10,000 5.25" floppy disks from a storage locker in Ottawa that way :( > Yes, in this area, they chop the lock if you're even 24 hours late, no excuses.If you have been a long time customer you might get 72 hours, if you're lucky. > > From his last message I'd say he does have a point on his side though,if the owner agreed to an arrangement then suddenly turned around and did this,then he has a case. > But I also agree with other posters, he should have sold some of the collectionin order to save the rest of it, rather than lose it all, no matter who was right. > Also agree with the comments here, there are tons of collectors, the postershould have been actively pursuing borrowing space from others, loaning,trading, etc. > This was let go far too long. Although I do hope he gets most of it back. > Dan. > >> From: ball.of.john at gmail.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley >> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:47:47 -0800 >> >>> I encourage everyone to read through the letters and especially the >>> affidavit to see the absolute criminality of these vultures. I am >>> continuing to upload more material as I have time, but the basic story is >>> there. >>> >>> The court system was absolutely useless, as were the police and sheriff. >>> I am having to sue for conversion, fraud, racketeering, unjust enrichment, >>> and probably other charges as I continue my research. >>> >>> I am here to tell you right now: Anyone on the receiving end of my stolen >>> property is going to be entangled in this mess one way or another. >>> Therefore, my suggestion to you is that YOU SHOULD NOT BID ON OR BUY >>> ANYTHING FROM TRI-VALLEY RECYCLING IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA. If you do end >>> up with my stuff, you will become a part of the lawsuit in some way. >> My interpretation is: tough noogies. >> >> You spent half a year not paying bills or trying in any possible way to >> relocate your belongings. It was excuse after excuse after excuse followed >> by backlash. If you considered these computers so valueable you should of >> been putting a LOT more effort into cramming it into a storage locker or a >> spare bedroom. >> Up here in Canada (I guess that's the key phrase because who knows just how >> much different the laws are but at least up here it's nationally accepted >> that....)if you don't pay the rent and you're that far due you can forget >> about whatever you left there. The landlord can switch the locks and now >> claim it as his own and the courts will laugh you out the door. >> >> Just because you decided to play lazy does not mean that we can't bid in >> fear of a pretty weak court case. If anything I advocate for more people to >> bid on it because we at least know it came from a reputable person. >> > From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 15 15:04:54 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:04:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Message-ID: Eric Smith wrote: > In the US this is a matter of state law, which of course varies from > state to state. In California, the landlord can NOT take simply > possession of the tenant's belongings. The eviction process involves > having the Sheriff seize the tenant's belongings. If the property is > believed to be worth more than $700, it has to be sold at a public sale > (auction) at a time and place published in a general circulation > newspaper. I rather doubt that eBay qualifies. See California Civil > Code section 1980-1991, especially section 1988. Actually, the threshold amount is $300, and before it can be sold at auction the landlord must have already: 1) Noticed the tennant of the restoration of the real property 2) Noticed the tennant of any personal property left on the property 3) >>>Allowed the tennant 15 days to recover the property<< If the landlord takes possession of the belongings or disposes of them > in a different manner than prescribed by law, it is theft, conversion, > and/or unjust enrichment. Eric is obviously someone who has taken the time to study the law. Thank you, Eric. And as Eric mentioned, these laws vary by state/jurisdiction, so you may have a different set of laws involved where you live, in which case I can say I'm sorry for you. At least in California we have these protections on the books, not that they are strictly adhered to in some places where the rule of law is obviously not as paramount as personal connections. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Jan 15 11:07:49 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:07:49 -0800 Subject: Honeywell terminals pics In-Reply-To: <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> References: <008701cdf33c$5944c980$0bce5c80$@com> <009701cdf33e$dc375c70$94a61550$@com> Message-ID: <50F58CE5.3060404@jwsss.com> On 1/15/2013 8:39 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Please try taking off the s in https if the page does not open for you. > May be useless data, but i could get to them. I also have a upgraded google and upgraded picassa account. This may have had some affect on how I could get to the pictures. You my need to share them to be more "public". jim From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 15 15:27:03 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:27:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" Message-ID: Zane Healy wrote: > Something that worries me is what went into the dumpster that they > apparently had on site. All of my shelving, desks, benches--the infrastructure of the archive-- and other items that the undiscerning scrapper would consider "junk". Thank you for your concern. > One also has to wonder how badly Sellam had pissed off the landlords > prior to this point. Reading through the email and documents last night > I was reminded of a conversation I'd had earlier in the night with my > seven year old. As regrettable as it is, the choices he made had > consequences. You're now comparing me to your 7 year old? You're unbelievable. How do I put this as politely as possible: you are making a lot of fart noises right now. As far as TVR, they claimed at the hearing it cost them $61,000 to move 200 pallets 3 miles across town. Almost all of the pallets were stacked and ready to go. They needed to stack maybe 5 more pallets of stuff, and discarded the rest (the "junk"). When they claimed this I knew they were lying and thus colluding with the landlords in their crime and therefore complicit. Four days before the hearing I had a 40 minute conversation with the operations manager of TVR and they knew full well the story AND the fact that there was already an open lawsuit against the landlords. I offered them the money they claim they paid the landlords for the stuff and to not add them to the lawsuit but they rejected it. Right there they opted to collude with the landlords. They are guilty. Now I will prove it. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jan 15 16:01:39 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 17:01:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201301152201.RAA27905@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> My interpretation is: tough noogies. > Your opinion is noted, ignorant as it is, based on assumptions, > incomplete facts, At this point, it seems to me, any reaction anyone not involved in the suit has will be based on assumptions and incomplete facts. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 16:16:29 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:16:29 -0600 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting Tez... I was tempted to try this on my IIci but now that you're having problems with the process I wonder if it's worth the hassle. :( On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > I've Retr0Brighted a handful of my computers in the past but now they > seem to be regressing back to their original mellow yellow. This > despite being kept in dark boxes. While UV seems to be essential for > yellowing in the first place, perhaps it's not required for > reyellowing/regression after a Retr0Bright treatment. > > Anyway I thought it was an interesting phenomenon worth sharing so I > wrote an article on my experiences > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-01-15-retr0bright-only-temporary.htm > > Has anyone else observed this? > > Terry (Tez) > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 16:17:00 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:17:00 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: <50F5BF5F.8090901@brouhaha.com> References: <50F5BF5F.8090901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <47308E18-0F2E-4CA7-B747-6F23B39BB3FC@aracnet.com> On Jan 15, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > John Ball wrote: >> Up here in Canada (I guess that's the key phrase because who knows just how much different the laws are but at least up here it's nationally accepted that....)if you don't pay the rent and you're that far due you can forget about whatever you left there. The landlord can switch the locks and now claim it as his own and the courts will laugh you out the door. > > In the US this is a matter of state law, which of course varies from state to state. In California, the landlord can NOT take simply possession of the tenant's belongings. The eviction process involves having the Sheriff seize the tenant's belongings. If the property is believed to be worth more than $700, it has to be sold at a public sale (auction) at a time and place published in a general circulation newspaper. I rather doubt that eBay qualifies. See California Civil Code section 1980-1991, especially section 1988. > > If the landlord takes possession of the belongings or disposes of them in a different manner than prescribed by law, it is theft, conversion, and/or unjust enrichment. > > [These are my personal opinions, which are worth exactly what you've paid for them. I am not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice.]// Thanks Eric, good this is good to know. The question then becomes one of if the procedure was followed or not. It sounds as if it could have been without Sellam's knowledge. Is there a requirement to notify the tenant if not physically present on the property? How long does the process take? While it isn't stated, would think that the recycler was able to satisfy the police that they had purchased the contents of the building legally. Zane From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 16:22:30 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:22:30 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Message-ID: The laws vary by state as pointed out and then also they can vary depending on the contract you sign. Many storage facilities have contractual agreements stating that if you fail to pay you'll have x time to retrieve your property (or forfeit your property) and it will become the property of the storage facility and they then sell it as they see fit. In this scenario it wasn't a storage unit though, this was technically an office space as far as I know. Hence the size (10,000 square feet or so). That's my previous knowledge though and I'm not a legal person nor up to date on whether it was the same warehouse I had the honor if standing in years back. It was amazing to see though. I can't imagine having to move 10,000sf of equipment in a timely or safe manner, nor having the funds to find a place to store that much equipment.. not like storage units come in that size ;-) On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > I'm confused by this case. I was under the assumption that anyone that > doesn't pay their bills to a storage locker place faces forfeiture of the > property that is stored there. At least that's how I remember the rental > contract agreement I signed on the storage locker we rented when we > relocated houses. > > It seems to also track with what seems to happen on "Storage Wars." I read > the stuff, but I'm confused about how the rental company acted improperly, > but it seems painfully clear that OP was several months behind on rent. > Cliffs? > From eallen at owt.com Tue Jan 15 16:34:12 2013 From: eallen at owt.com (Ernest G. Allen) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:34:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:41:40 > From: Terry Stewart > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV > light? > > > Wasn't it oxygen which bound with the bromium and UV helped that process? > > Yes, as far as I know that is correct, but I'd always assumed (maybe > wrongly) that a reasonable amount of UV light was needed to facilitate > this. Based on what's happened it may be that very little UV (if any) > is needed. In the case of my Retr0Brighted cases....just a few days > exposure per year under florescents (i.e. the time I had the computers > out of the box to play with or test) seemed to be all that was needed. > > Merlin, in his writeup in the Retr0Bright wiki > (http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com) does say even low levels from > florescent lights is enough. I'd always assumed this was everyday > exposure though. Perhaps with some plastics UV is not needed at all? > I have heard of cases where people have put a shiny white computer in > a sealed box for storage only to find a cheese-yellow artifact when > they drag it out years later. > > There is something more puzzling. Let's assume yellowing can occur in > the absence of much (or any) UV light. Why then are those cord > markings on the Apple IIe and Vic 20 reappearing? You would have > expected any further yellowing of my cases, even with low levels of > UV, to be consistent across the case surface now the cords are not > there. All surfaces would be exposed to equal amount of oxygen or > brief light. However the cord impressions (which protected the > plastic under them from initial yellowing) are re-appearing? > I know that the normal explanation for the yellowing of the cases is that exposure to UV made them yellow, and that would be one explanation of how the outlines (shadows) of the cords came to be. Another possibility might be that the plastic in the cords was outgassing while they lay on the case, and that the shadows are where that gas somehow helped protect the case from yellowing. To quickly falsify this theory, do you (or someone else) have some examples where a non-yellowed outline was caused by something that (1) didn't outgas, and (2) didn't trap, even partially, outgassing from the case itself. Even a single sheet of paper would partially trap outgassing from the case, but something like a sticky note leaving a non-yellowed outline might be good enough to falsify this theory. An ideal falsification of this theory would be something like a metallic box with legs that kept the bottom panel of the box away from the plastic case. > The question I have in my mind therefore is "do the changes in the > chemical structure cause by the initial yellowing (OR perhaps the > RetroBrighting itself) make the plastic MORE prone to future 2BR.O > co-ordinant bonds or/and migration of these to the surface of the case > (hence causing yellowing)? " Or is something else going on? > > Whatever is happening, the practical implications are that even brief > and very very low levels of UV seem to be enough to re-yellow > retr0Brighted surfaces over time. There is not enough evidence in my > case to say that UV is not needed AT ALL, as all the units had been > exposed briefly a few times a year, to fluorescent light. > > Tez > --Ernest From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 15 16:41:28 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:41:28 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17079D9C-2589-48B4-9A61-C1908C21EA83@shiresoft.com> On Jan 15, 2013, at 12:57 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > I'm confused by this case. I was under the assumption that anyone that > doesn't pay their bills to a storage locker place faces forfeiture of the > property that is stored there. At least that's how I remember the rental > contract agreement I signed on the storage locker we rented when we > relocated houses. > > It seems to also track with what seems to happen on "Storage Wars." I read > the stuff, but I'm confused about how the rental company acted improperly, > but it seems painfully clear that OP was several months behind on rent. > Cliffs? I think what's missing here is that Sellam's "storage" was a warehouse and not a storage locker(s) (ie Public Storage and their ilk). It was "commercial" property and as such there was a lease. If not in fact, then implied (if implied then CA statutes still apply to a "default" lease arrangement). That connotes a set of legal conditions on the landlord (as well as the tenant). I feel for Sellam as I went through several years of legal shenanigans at the hands of unscrupulous attorneys and their clients many years ago. It's not a pleasant experience by any stretch of imagination (which I guess it why they do it, most folks tire of the pain and settle rightly or wrongly just to be able to get on with their lives). All I can say, especially to all the folks who are down on Sellam, is that until/unless you've gone through this (and/or have a good basis in the law) I suggest you keep quiet. TTFN - Guy > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Bryan Pope wrote: > >> Wow. So if a burglar came into your house and stole all of your stuff, >> then it would be better for him the sell it instead melting it down for >> scrap. As least somebody can use it and the thief makes a small profit! >> >> Obviously I should not worry about the infinitely tiny detail that the >> stuff was stolen. I feel sooo much better now! >> >> Cheers, >> >> Bryan >> >> >> On 1/15/2013 12:29 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: >> >>> The way that shady "recycling" outfits like this work is that they try >>> to move stuff as quickly as possible and if they can't sell it almost >>> immediately they WILL melt it down. While the fact that they're making >>> even a token attempt to sell stuff whole means that they know the >>> stuff is valuable, you can be pretty sure that if they can't sell the >>> working systems on their first attempt, they WILL get scrapped. Thus, >>> by encouraging people not to but this stuff, you are, in effect, >>> condemning it to a firey death... >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 15 16:43:39 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:43:39 -0800 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine Message-ID: <50F5DB9B.9050107@sydex.com> I posted this on Erik Klein's forum awhile back, but also meant to post this here. Electronics Goldmine has new 2-per-package MCM4517P12 16Kx1 DRAMs for $1 for two ICs. These are the single-supply version of the 4116 3-rail devices and I believe, entirely pin-compatible. Might be a good deal for someone looking for replacement DRAM. http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G19239 Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 15 16:54:01 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 15:54:01 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: <50F5BF5F.8090901@brouhaha.com> References: <50F5BF5F.8090901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50F5DE09.5090603@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > In the US this is a matter of state law, which of course varies from > state to state. In California, the landlord can NOT take simply > possession of the tenant's belongings. The eviction process involves > having the Sheriff seize the tenant's belongings. If the property is > believed to be worth more than $700, it has to be sold at a public > sale (auction) at a time and place published in a general circulation > newspaper. I rather doubt that eBay qualifies. See California Civil > Code section 1980-1991, especially section 1988. Someone pointed out to me off-list that this was a commercial eviction, so the rules aren't exactly the same. However, I'm pretty sure that it's still the case that the landlord can't just take possession of the stuff, must hold an auction, and post a legal notice of the auction place and time. The landlord doesn't wind up with ownership of any of the stuff unless he wins it at auction. Also, the landlord can't dribble it out to auction a little bit at a time. But as I said before, I am not a lawyer. Eric From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 15 17:20:14 2013 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 15:20:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: <20130115120941.J51786@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jan 15, 13 12:20:49 pm" Message-ID: <201301152320.r0FNKEwh29818980@floodgap.com> > Accepting stolen merchandise UNknowingly is not a crime. However, > if a court rules that it was stolen, then it must be returned > to its rightful owner. Any purchaser who UNknowingly accepted > the stolen merchandise is not entitled to compensation for the > return to the rightful owner, and can merely attempt to collect > back from the seller. FWIW, when my storage unit was burgled, one of the items turned up at a local pawn shop. The detective (this is Southern California) said the arrangement was that the pawn shop could not profit from the arrangement, but that they were entitled to the cost they paid to receive the item. I paid them that cost, got the item back, and charged it to the burglary insurance (who promptly denied it, but that's a whole other story). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From ball.of.john at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 18:04:33 2013 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:04:33 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >spare bedroom??!? >Can I move into your house? >Maybe put my HOUSE into one of your spare bedrooms? >Just the stuff that he hauled out from my closing office >would fill three normal "spare bedroom"s. Okay, I didn't realize that when he meant a warehouse he literally meant a warehouse crammed wall to wall and just about as high as you could go with with essentially everything. I was rather blown away by the photographs when I finally saw them on Flickr ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/2533385026/sizes/o/in/photostream/ ). It's like an episode of hoarders only things are a bit more organized. I'll agree that at that point a spare bedroom will be the leasy likely place to store stuff. >In the US this is a matter of state law, which of course varies from >state to state. In California, the landlord can NOT take simply >possession of the tenant's belongings. The eviction process involves >having the Sheriff seize the tenant's belongings. If the property is >believed to be worth more than $700, it has to be sold at a public sale >(auction) at a time and place published in a general circulation >newspaper. I rather doubt that eBay qualifies. See California Civil >Code section 1980-1991, especially section 1988. > >If the landlord takes possession of the belongings or disposes of them >in a different manner than prescribed by law, it is theft, conversion, >and/or unjust enrichment. > >[These are my personal opinions, which are worth exactly what you've >paid for them. I am not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice.]// OH! Okay, so there is some reason to complain then. Pardon my previously posted opinion. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 15 18:19:12 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:19:12 +1300 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: Hmm....After some more reflection and discussion, here is my current hypothesis. This seems to fit all the evidence, at least for my situation. The original damage from light causes degraded or free bromides throughout the case from the fire retardants. Retr0Bright only takes these away from the surface layer. However these bromides can migrate fairly freely through the polymer. They don't need light to do this. Migration is probably accelerated in hot conditions. These pre-existing bromines from the original damage migrate to the top and within a few years the surface is yellowed again. If this hypothesis is correct then a UV sealant will not protect the case. Or any sealant maybe. Unless pre-formed bromides from previous light damage can be stopped from migrating to the surface (and I don't know how you would do that) Retr0Bright is only ever going to be temporary. Sound logical? Tez From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jan 15 18:38:56 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:38:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? Message-ID: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I don't know or want to know what a bromide is even (sounds like something mum or dad were taking for gas or constipation back in the dawn of time, circa 1972). All I know is if you put warm coffee in a ceramic mug on top of a yellow computer, it erases the yellow, for a few seconds. There's real creepy going on with this stuff, that's all I know. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 15 18:52:59 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:52:59 -0800 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I don't know or want to know what a bromide is even (sounds like something mum or dad were taking for gas or constipation back in the dawn of time, circa 1972). All I know is if you put warm coffee in a ceramic mug on top of a yellow computer, it erases the yellow, for a few seconds. There's real creepy going on with this stuff, that's all I know. Sure you do! From a couple of Wikipedia articles: A bromide is a chemical compound containing a bromide ion or ligand. This is a bromine atom with an ionic charge of ?1 in ionic compounds such as caesium bromide, or else a bromine atom with an oxidation number of -1 incovalent compounds such as sulfur dibromide. Bromine is a chemical element with the symbol Br, and atomic number of 35. At high temperatures, organobromine compounds are easily converted to free bromine atoms, a process which acts to terminate free radical chemical chain reactions. This makes such compounds useful fire retardants and this is bromine's primary industrial use, consuming more than half of world production of the element. The same property allows volatile organobromine compounds, under the action of sunlight, to form free bromine atoms in the atmosphere which are highly effective in ozone depletion. TTFN - Guy From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 19:15:48 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:15:48 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley In-Reply-To: <470F6DF3-AADE-4B89-A7E5-AE530E2C54ED@xlisper.com> References: , , , , <470F6DF3-AADE-4B89-A7E5-AE530E2C54ED@xlisper.com> Message-ID: I didnt know anything about the situation until his recent email,and I bet a lot of other list members are in the same situation, I certainly would have bought some items if we had can't say what caused that glitch if it was posted to the list previously.... > From: dbetz at xlisper.com > Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:02:30 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Jan 15, 2013, at 2:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > But I also agree with other posters, he should have sold some of the collectionin order to save the rest of it, rather than lose it all, no matter who was right. > > Didn't Sellam try to do exactly that? He posted a message here a while ago offering to sell anything in his collection or maybe just things he had duplicates of. In any case, I think he *did* try to sell things to raise money. Maybe there just weren't enough willing buyers. > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 15 19:21:58 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 17:21:58 -0800 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> On Jan 15, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I don't know or want to know what a bromide is even (sounds like > something mum or dad were taking for gas or constipation back in the > dawn of time, circa 1972). Close, but not quite in cigar territory. Bromo-Seltzer before 1975 contained sodium bromide, which is a mild sedative. When bromides were banned, Bromo-Seltzer kept its name, but now is little more than fizzy Tylenol. Original BS was great for hangovers and headaches. Not so much today. BTW, the term "bromide" for an over-used clich?, comes from the idea that an overworked phrase has the power to put one to sleep, not unlike the effects of sodium bromide. --Chuck From ckblackm at yahoo.com Tue Jan 15 19:24:28 2013 From: ckblackm at yahoo.com (Christopher Blackmon) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 17:24:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1358299468.29746.YahooMailNeo@web140601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Sellam Ismail To: Classic Computers Mailing List Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 11:25 PM Subject: Current Do Not Buy/Bid list (eBay) - STOLEN VCF Archives Items The follow items listed for sale on eBay are STOLEN from the Vintage Computer Festival Archives: *list snipped These items have been reported to eBay as stolen. ------ Did ebay respond to your reporting of the items as being stolen? Christopher. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jan 15 19:33:49 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:33:49 -0500 Subject: QBus cycles - Re: AED/DMA - Re: DOOM In-Reply-To: <50F58845.90401@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1357552623.79073.YahooMailNeo@web162802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1A0EBC5B-724A-4E68-B69C-372F02D5EBCD@gmail.com> <7CA758BBBD714F78A107EB7A74471CCB@tababook> <31E0E6D2-C0C9-4A2E-8360-83BDF98363D6@gmail.com> <50F32315.3020705@neurotica.com> <50F33642.5070405@gmail.com> <50F3649C.2010405@telegraphics.com.au> <201301140715.CAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F40CD5.6070206@telegraphics.com.au> <201301141631.LAA18705@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50F43592.5070704@neurotica.com> <50F44818.9000101@dunnington.plus.com> <50F4C4C4.5010000@telegraphics.com.! au> <50F58845.90401@dunnington.plus.co m> Message-ID: <50F6037D.30802@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/01/13 11:48 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 15/01/2013 02:53, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 14/01/13 1:02 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> On 14/01/2013 16:42, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>>>> Is that true of Qbus, though? I thought a memory cycle monopolises >>>>>> the bus. >>>>> >>>>> I _think_ you're right, but, as I wrote, >>> >>> Mouse is right. >> >> Can you give me a reference on that or more detail? > > I can't remember where it is, but at least one of the QBus documents > describing bus cycles details which signals are active at what times, > including how and when a DMA request can be ack'd. It might be in one > of the processor handbooks. > Yes I have the spec. --Toby From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 15 20:56:21 2013 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:56:21 -0600 Subject: server status Message-ID: All the websites on the classiccmp server that have their own domain name have been migrated. Please test & advise. You can start modifying content again. I'm now working on all the subdirectory websites of classiccmp.org, will let you know when they are done so you can again start modifying any content. Mailman will be done last. J From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 15 21:20:05 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 19:20:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <20130115191931.N60114@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > know how you would do that) Retr0Bright is only ever going to be > temporary. Once again, the answer is Ubik (used as directed) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 15 21:22:17 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 19:22:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Close, but not quite in cigar territory. Bromo-Seltzer before 1975 > contained sodium bromide, which is a mild sedative. When bromides were > banned, Bromo-Seltzer kept its name, but now is little more than fizzy > Tylenol. Ever see the clock tower at the southern entrance to Baltimore? From wgungfu at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 20:15:26 2013 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:15:26 -0600 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <201301151106.r0FB6Whs014770@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: Terry, the retr0bright process (and Merlin) also mentiones "The permanent fix it is to coat it with clear satin acrylic lacquer to seal the surface off from the air." Basically stating the process can eventuall reverse itself it you don't and sealing it with an anti-UV laquer provides "No oxygen, no oxidation." It's a very light acrylic, usually used for preserving paintings/drawings/etc. I've also seen some people mention using Armorall spray or 303 Aerospace Protectant Wipes, On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > > Wasn't it oxygen which bound with the bromium and UV helped that process? > > Yes, as far as I know that is correct, but I'd always assumed (maybe > wrongly) that a reasonable amount of UV light was needed to facilitate > this. Based on what's happened it may be that very little UV (if any) > is needed. In the case of my Retr0Brighted cases....just a few days > exposure per year under florescents (i.e. the time I had the computers > out of the box to play with or test) seemed to be all that was needed. > > Merlin, in his writeup in the Retr0Bright wiki > (http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com) does say even low levels from > florescent lights is enough. I'd always assumed this was everyday > exposure though. Perhaps with some plastics UV is not needed at all? > I have heard of cases where people have put a shiny white computer in > a sealed box for storage only to find a cheese-yellow artifact when > they drag it out years later. > > There is something more puzzling. Let's assume yellowing can occur in > the absence of much (or any) UV light. Why then are those cord > markings on the Apple IIe and Vic 20 reappearing? You would have > expected any further yellowing of my cases, even with low levels of > UV, to be consistent across the case surface now the cords are not > there. All surfaces would be exposed to equal amount of oxygen or > brief light. However the cord impressions (which protected the > plastic under them from initial yellowing) are re-appearing? > > The question I have in my mind therefore is "do the changes in the > chemical structure cause by the initial yellowing (OR perhaps the > RetroBrighting itself) make the plastic MORE prone to future 2BR.O > co-ordinant bonds or/and migration of these to the surface of the case > (hence causing yellowing)? " Or is something else going on? > > Whatever is happening, the practical implications are that even brief > and very very low levels of UV seem to be enough to re-yellow > retr0Brighted surfaces over time. There is not enough evidence in my > case to say that UV is not needed AT ALL, as all the units had been > exposed briefly a few times a year, to fluorescent light. > > Tez > -- Marty From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 21:37:41 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:37:41 -0500 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2013, at 22:22, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Close, but not quite in cigar territory. Bromo-Seltzer before 1975 >> contained sodium bromide, which is a mild sedative. When bromides were >> banned, Bromo-Seltzer kept its name, but now is little more than fizzy >> Tylenol. > > Ever see the clock tower at the southern entrance to Baltimore? I grew up in Baltimore and lived there for 25 years (and am quite familiar with the Bromo-Seltzer tower), but I've never seen the drink in any form. Old Bay and Berger cookies, alas, are inescapable there (Berger cookies, for the uninitiated, are inexplicably popular confections that are 50% cookie and 70% frosting, and are endemic to the Baltimore region). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 15 21:37:43 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 19:37:43 -0800 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> On 01/15/2013 07:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Ever see the clock tower at the southern entrance to Baltimore? Cant say that I've ever been to Baltimore, at least not when I was lucid and conscious. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 15 22:23:18 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:23:18 +1300 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> Message-ID: >Terry, the retr0bright process (and Merlin) also mentiones "The permanent >fix it is to coat it with clear satin acrylic lacquer to seal the surface >off from the air." Basically stating the process can eventuall reverse >itself it you don't and sealing it with an anti-UV laquer provides "No >oxygen, no oxidation." It's a very light acrylic, usually used for >preserving paintings/drawings/etc. >I've also seen some people mention using Armorall spray or 303 Aerospace >Protectant Wipes Yes, this was the current thinking. But given the yellowing seemed to occur with such little light exposure, I wonder if this needs revisiting? The original damage from light causes degraded or free bromides throughout the case from the fire retardants hence yellowing. Merlin says in the Wiki that Retr0Bright only fixes these in the surface layer and that this "cleaned" layer can re-yellow with exposure to UV. Fair enough. However elsewhere in the wiki he also says these bromides can migrate fairly freely through the polymer. Presumably they don't need light to do this. I imagine migration is probably accelerated in hot conditions. My hypothesis as to why re-yellowing occurred in my machines with such little exposure to light was that deeper pre-existing bromines from the original damage (not touched by Retr0Bright) migrated to the top "cleaned" layer and within a few years yellowed the surface again. If this hypothesis is correct then a UV sealant will not protect the case. Or any sealant maybe. Unless pre-formed bromides from previous light damage can be stopped from migrating to the surface (and I don't know how you would do that) Retr0Bright is only ever going to be temporary. Anyway. I have sent Merlin a PM through the VCF to see what his thoughts are on it. It may only be proved by experimentation but the hypotheses seems to fit with what happened. It also fits with what is said about the yellowing process in the Retr0Bits Wiki. Terry (Tez) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 15 22:38:13 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:38:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> <50F62087.4000805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130115203305.B61229@shell.lmi.net> > > Ever see the clock tower at the southern entrance to Baltimore? On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Cant say that I've ever been to Baltimore, at least not when I was lucid > and conscious. Many who see it experience a cognitive dissonance, wherein they see it, but their brains refuse to register what they saw. It is a large traditional clock tower. On the face of the clock, instead of numerals, there are the letters B R O M O S E L T Z E R "The time in Bawlmer is currently M after Z" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 15 22:48:24 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:48:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130115204146.E61229@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, David Riley wrote: > I grew up in Baltimore and lived there for 25 years (and am > quite familiar with the Bromo-Seltzer tower), but I've never > seen the drink in any form. Old Bay and Berger cookies, alas, > are inescapable there (Berger cookies, for the uninitiated, are > inexplicably popular confections that are 50% cookie and > 70% frosting, and are endemic to the Baltimore region). The last time that I was there was 40 years ago. At that time, the harbor was full of LARGE rats (bigger than cats), not tourists. US40 ran through the city, with cobblestones in some areas, and a few remaining horse-drawn rag-picker carts. All along US40, almost everything was condemned. There was a unique demolition style - they would romove all of the interior doors in a building, and nail those together to create a fence. For block after block after block, the entire block would be a fence of nailed together doors, punctuated at regular intervals by marble doorsteps. I've heard that the city changed soon after that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 15 23:07:02 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:07:02 -0800 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? In-Reply-To: References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50F63576.50107@sydex.com> On 01/15/2013 07:37 PM, David Riley wrote: > I grew up in Baltimore and lived there for 25 years (and am > quite familiar with the Bromo-Seltzer tower), but I've never > seen the drink in any form. White crystals in a dark blue glass bottle, usually sold wrapped in equally dark blue paper. Dump a capful into a glass and add water, and the mixture results in a vigorous foaming liquid (largely a result of the sodium bicarbonate and citric acid to make the bubbles). More vigorous in action than Alka-Seltzer, which contains basically the same bubble-making agents, but no bromide, all pressed into a slow-dissolving tablet. Seidlitz powder was similar, but used cream of tartar as the acid and resulted in a laxative effect--basically baking powder with a medical attribution. I think all three arose in popularity because people seem to like the effects of dissolved carbon dioxide in their drinks, most especially, beer and sparkling wines--not to mention overpriced spring water. None other than Joseph Priestly figured out a way to dissolve pressurized carbon dioxide in water, thereby inventing seltzer water and giving belated birth to an industry selling carbonated municipal tap water for ridiculous prices,creating piles of plastic bottles littering the nation's byways. --Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Jan 16 00:53:06 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:53:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Selling off items to raise money Message-ID: Fortunately, I was able to save for myself several surplus pieces that I had planned to sell to raise money back in December. I was never able to follow through because of the vortex I got sucked into at the time. Since I need the money now more than a shattered collection, I will proceed to sell these pieces. This is what I'm offering right now: Cromemco System 1 w/display, keyboard & (2) 5.25" floppy drives (might have functional hard disk with OS) Cromemco System Three Altair 8800a Altair 8800b Heathkit H11 w/H27 dual drives Teleram T-3000 portable with external 5.25" disk drive I'll get proper descriptions and photos and post them up tomorrow (Wednesday). I'm not terribly keen on shipping things internationally but I will with the right motivation. If you would like to make an initial offer then please e-mail me directly (off-list). I'll take best offers by this Friday. Since I'm motivated to raise a few thousand dollars within the next couple days I will entertain all reasonable offers. Thank you for your consideration. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Jan 16 02:06:02 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 00:06:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: More eBay users selling my stolen property and affidavit exhibits uploaded Message-ID: Thanks to the watchful eyes of various folks, I have discovered two more eBay sellers selling my stolen property: kaekae_b2011 http://www.ebay.com/sch/kaekae_b2011/m.html?item=121051068738&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562 martinezana http://www.ebay.com/csc/martinezana/m.html?LH_Complete=1&rt=nc I am going to be contacting eBay legal tomorrow to let them know I'll be adding them to the lawsuit unless they shut down these auctions. Their response should be interesting. Also, for those interested, I uploaded the exhibits to my affidavit: http://vintagetech.com/download/lawsuit/ I also uploaded an Opposition declaration that gives some background on what occurred between the two hearings held for the second Temporary Restraining Order application. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From joerg.sigle at jsigle.com Wed Jan 16 03:16:08 2013 From: joerg.sigle at jsigle.com (Joerg M. Sigle) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 10:16:08 +0100 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> Hi Chuck, I just reviewed the datasheets. The pinout appears *mostly* compatible - appart from the fact that the 4116 pin 8 wants +12V, and the 4517 only +5V. The other power supply pins have changed to N.C., so it could be done with a small board change or a small wire by each IC. I was just considering that because I have a machine with 64 x 4116 (and maybe some more in two or three other boards, don't want to look now...), and I would be interested in reducing power dissipation. It may go to 170 mW per chip, ... but while MOSTEK say their 4116 needs up to 1 W max, I just see the TMS4116-20 more probably has 462 mW. So it would save me... 19 W at best. Or less, because the unused power rails cannot simple be turned off - or more, because the PSU is a rather large, old, linear type. Now well - I don't have time; the originals are soldered in, so don't want to ruin the boards anyway. Nor change their original state more than needed for actual repairs. I've already replaced one defective IC of these, so I could at least test compatibility... Has anybody ever replaced memory ICs to save power? Btw., I *might* have to stick with 1 bit RAM in this machine because it might mask individual bits in hardware, IIRC. Kind regards, Joerg On 16.01.2013 06:07, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:43:39 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine > Message-ID: <50F5DB9B.9050107 at sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I posted this on Erik Klein's forum awhile back, but also meant to post > this here. > > Electronics Goldmine has new 2-per-package MCM4517P12 16Kx1 DRAMs for $1 > for two ICs. These are the single-supply version of the 4116 3-rail > devices and I believe, entirely pin-compatible. > > Might be a good deal for someone looking for replacement DRAM. > > http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G19239 > > Cheers, > Chuck -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. med. J?rg M. Sigle +41-76-276-8694 http://www.ql-recorder.com +41-32-51-22-944 http://www.jsigle.com Have a lovely day... +49-176-964-35413 From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Jan 16 04:02:46 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 23:02:46 +1300 Subject: My Commodore SX-64 Executive video on YouTube Message-ID: This time it's the Commodore SX-64 Executive to the fore. Just in time for its 30th Anniversary. http://youtu.be/1cGGhtMSxtE Terry (Tez) From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 07:08:50 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:08:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: More eBay users selling my stolen property and affidavit exhibits uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Also, for those interested, I uploaded the exhibits to my affidavit: > > http://vintagetech.com/download/lawsuit/ > > I also uploaded an Opposition declaration that gives some background on > what occurred between the two hearings held for the second Temporary > Restraining Order application. Sellam, You are doing yourself no favors at all by acting as your own attorney, particularly if you are going up against an old-boys network who play golf together every weekend. Having been through a nasty round of litigation with a bank who failed to follow their own documented internal procedures and let the bookkeeper for my former business walk away with over $90,000, I have seen first-hand how important representation is. In my case, the judge assigned to the suit had spent his entire private career representing - you guessed it - the bank we were suing. Since it was in the past, this wasn't a direct conflict of interest, but it certainly was a strong indicator we were in an uphill fight. Left to our own devices, we would have come away with nothing. Thanks to an aggressive attorney we negotiated a $50k settlement. Worth it in my book. Please reconsider what you are doing. Steve -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 08:19:13 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:19:13 -0200 Subject: Forgot to post here...16Kx1 DRAM NOS at Goldmine References: <50F66FD8.3040203@jsigle.com> Message-ID: > Now well - I don't have time; the originals are soldered in, so don't > want to ruin the boards anyway. Nor change their original state more > than needed for actual repairs. I've already replaced one defective IC > of these, so I could at least test compatibility... For me it is STUPIDITY to solder memories on board. They fail, and when they fail, they FAIL. I'd take all of them out with a professional desolder station, replace it with sockets and using whatever memory you feel like. This is something I'm quite used to do. I'm on a slow network to find direct links, but look at http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com for the ZX-80 and Gradiente Expert (MSX) computers all-chips-removed-board-restored-and-turned-pin-socketted-treatment From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 08:16:07 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:16:07 -0200 Subject: Retr0Bright: Does re-yellowing occur even in the absence of UV light? References: <1358296736.45499.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50F600B6.7020504@sydex.com> <20130115192136.K60114@shell.lmi.net> <50F63576.50107@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0A95AB339DC94427B762E5F1518D2216@tababook> > beer and sparkling wines--not to mention overpriced spring water. None > other than Joseph Priestly figured out a way to dissolve pressurized > carbon dioxide in water, thereby inventing seltzer water and giving > belated birth to an industry selling carbonated municipal tap water for > ridiculous prices,creating piles of plastic bottles littering the nation's > byways. Hmmm...There is something I never thought of, and it is interesting to do...I use to drink lots of carbonated water =D From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 08:45:06 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:45:06 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Archvies STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling in Stockton - now selling on eBay as seller "tvrsales" In-Reply-To: <17079D9C-2589-48B4-9A61-C1908C21EA83@shiresoft.com> References: <1358268452.71344.YahooMailClassic@web120003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50F59E1E.8070308@comcast.net> <17079D9C-2589-48B4-9A61-C1908C21EA83@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > I think what's missing here is that Sellam's "storage" was a warehouse and > not > a storage locker(s) (ie Public Storage and their ilk). It was > "commercial" pr